From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Jul 1 00:19:39 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 00:19:39 -0000 Subject: OOP: Why Weren't the Weasleys in the Order?; Molly's (and others') flaws In-Reply-To: <02d301c33f31$8c5e3f00$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66241 Penny wrote: >>>> It really is *Odd* that the Weasleys weren't in the Order the first time, isn't it? They were certainly old enough ---- they almost certainly must be older than Lily and James (if we believe that Lily and James had Harry when they were still in their early 20s for example). I wonder if this is important in some way. <<<< Sounds like the cue for all those Imperius!Arthur theories again. >>>> MOLLY'S SHORTCOMINGS -- I know I won't be popular for saying it, but Molly Weasley is rapidly becoming one of my least favorite characters. I completely agree that she just needs to get a grip, and she *really, really* ought to stop smothering her own kids so much (and she certainly should *stop* trying to smother kids who are not her own, Harry and Hermione). Her interactions with Fred & George really leave me cold. And my perception is that she's warmed to Ron solely because he's a prefect now. And, I have always despised the way she hen-pecks Arthur. And what is she *doing* for the Order anyway? All I saw is that she was making meat balls one night. ::::rolls eyes:::::: <<<<< I agree intellectually with most of this (not all, see below), but in some respects that makes me like her more. To me the crucial scene in OOP, which transforms our view of Molly (and confirms it for some of our more prescient members, though not me) is the boggart scene. The true Molly is revealed here. It is apparent that her 'woes', as JKR calls them, but really the damage done to her in the past, are much deeper than can be dealt with by 'getting a grip'. I think this is why I like her better now: I find it hard to like any character who has no vulnerability that is bigger than they are. It seems to me pretty well a dead cert now that there is a murdered Weasley sibling lurking in the past, and this has haunted Molly's thoughts for all the time we have known her. Full marks to those who theorised that before OOP - as I say, not me. Seeing her family members dead, she is unable to think of anything to make that funny, to make Riddikulus effective. That says to me that the fear of her family members being murdered grips *her* more than she can fight, and must therefore derive from some past trauma. Much of what has seemed unsatisfactory about her character than comes clearer; like Fudge, she longs for 'normalised' life to continue and so strongly supports those sons whose career choices affirm the triumph of normality. Unlike Fudge, she believes Harry and Dumbledore, but she still tries her hardest to pretend (by keeping them out of the Order) that her younger offspring can be kept in a Voldermort-free zone. I think if we like our 'good' characters to play nice we are going to be in for many disappointments in the last two books. Lupin's flaws have yet to be exposed fully. Dumbledore's have only just begun. It'll be interesting to see if Harry treats Dudley in a manner similar to the way James treated Snape (I think, given that Harry thought of Fred and George when considering James, that Ton- tongue Toffee is blatant, in-your-face foreshadowing now, and Moody's example at Kings Cross is hardly inspiring - the Order are bullying Vernon, and however gratifying that might be to the reader and Harry in the short term, in a just universe (which it is more and more apparent JKR is writing) it is storing up trouble for the long term). Hermione is starting to show the cracks - her assumption that Ron couldn't be a prefect is interesting, no? And what do you all think of her compulsive hat-knitting? Something strange there, I feel, material for a major post in itself. I feel more confident that we may yet get Elkins' sulky!Neville (erm, I mean, Prince Renunciate). I agree totally with Dicey's comments about Book 5 being the beginning of an arc (the Sorting Hat's song, by virtue of being completely ignored for the rest of the book, is JKR's trumpet blast to the reader that that is so): one consequence of this, IMO, is that in the end the Order of the Phoenix will turn out to be just as ambiguous a grouping as the MOM, or the centaurs. I still have hopes that Moaning Myrtle will come up trumps, though. David From dkewpie at pacbell.net Tue Jul 1 00:25:58 2003 From: dkewpie at pacbell.net (Kewpie) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 00:25:58 -0000 Subject: OoP: What Snape is really doing out there... In-Reply-To: <1d5.ce7787e.2c3214ed@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66242 First I got to say I felt that some of the anti-Snape people here are a little bit overexaggerating some of Snape's so-called "nastiness" in Ch.24 , it's like no matter what he do or say, they comes off super evil/nasty to you guys. How on earth was he "insulting" Black during that Christmas scene!? You call that "insult"?! I couldn't believe we're reading the same book. Snape was taunting or teasing, yes, but insults? And may I remind you guys that it was Black who was being unpleasant first. And since when did "sit down, Potter" became a nasty rude giving- order talk!? What do you anti-Snape people want him to say then? "Would you please take a seat my dear/sweetheart/honey?" Snape was being professional, "sit down, Potter" is nothing but being professional. > Did Snape "offer" Harry to sit down or did he order him to? what's exactly so wrong with "Sit down, Potter" may I ask you!? I can easily see Prof. McGonagal said the same thing. > Snape can't even keep himself from ordering Harry > around and sneering at him in the kitchen of the order's safehouse. Ordering Harry around? How so? When? where? And didn't Snape explained everything to Harry in a professional manner the whole time?! > Snape was cool? I suppose that, depending on your personal feelings regarding > the two adults in the room, you could see Snape as the "cool" one (though > it's noteable that Snape is the one who indulges in insult after insult while What "insults after insults"?!??! If what Snape said at that scene are consider "insults", then what about Black then? Doesn't that made him also insulting Snape the whole time then? Don't forget he was being extremely childlish to called Snape "Snivellus" and "Lucius's Lapdog". Did you remember that at all? > Black does nothing til Snape takes a shot at both Harry and James), but how cool > is sneering at and repeatedly belittling Harry? Is that cool too? Black does nothing!??! He was the one who started it. He was also the one raising his voice first. He was also the one being aggressive the whole time. He was the one who do childlish name calling. He was the one push his chair roughly and pull out his wand first, he was the one pushing Harry. On the other hand, Snape remain his coolness and being calm the whole time, including after being called "Snivelllus" by Black. Joan (who have a feeling that even if Snape did end up being nice to Harry, these anti-Snape people could still find bunch of bad things to say about it like how he's not nice enough or he didn't really meant it or something) From marie_mouse at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 00:32:39 2003 From: marie_mouse at hotmail.com (Marie Jadewalker) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 00:32:39 -0000 Subject: OOP: Umbridge's observation of O.W.L.'s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66243 "Barclay, Maggie" > wrote: > > after Harry completes his Defense against the Dark Arts O.W.L. > Umbridge had a slight smile on her face. Harry is so pleased with > himself that he chooses to ignore it. As far as I'm concerned, > Umbridge CANNOT be pleased with his performance, and thus must have > thought of some way of changing Harry's grade or some other equally > dastardly deed. Any ideas? If this has been discussed, please > direct me. > > Ali replies: > > I've got a very nasty feeling about this. In JKR's Albert Hall > reading, she read the passage relating to Harry's careers talk. She > hinted that a grade would be the problem in his desire to become an > Auror. I naturally assumed that the problem would be regarding > Potions. But, suppose that Umbridge managed to jinx Harry's exam > paper - or his examiner in the practical section - of DADA? > Perhaps, Harry has actually failed DADA because of Umbridge. I > think we now know, that if she could cause him to fail, she would. > Poor Harry, I now think he might be shocked about his DADA grade, > and for all the wrong reasons. Marie replies: Oh, how awful! Poor Harry is right. He would be initially crushed if it were his DADA grade that kept him from becoming an Auror. And I agree with you that it sounds very much like something the horrible Ms. Umbridge would do, if she possibly could. Not only does she get to squash Harry's desires, but she also gets to pay McGonagall back for her "competent teacher" slam. Yikes. It would be truly ironic for the Boy Who Lived to get a sub-par grade on his DADA OWL. However, I'm not sure that a low grade on this OWL (especially if it were through fraud and Dumbledore or anyone could prove that) would keep Harry out of NEWT level DADA class. I thought it was clear at the end that Dumbledore wanted Umbridge out of his school, and Fudge had to comply, so I'm guessing that finding a new (competent) DADA teacher will be close to the top of Dumbledore's priority list for the coming summer. Unless there are Ministry- imposed requirements for who's admitted into the NEWT DADA class, I'd guess Dumbledore's hand-picked teacher would let Harry in (unless Snape finally gets his wish!) So while I think former-Professor Umbridge is a dangerous woman who should be watched, I'm not sure she'll be able to keep Harry out of DADA for the next year. As others have said, her pleasure could simply be attributed to thinking her "method" worked. Or, she could think Harry's performance was proof that he and/or Dumbledore really did hold DA meetings throughout the year and she's planning to use that to get Harry expelled. As for Harry actually becoming an auror, I'll feel bad for him if he's denied it because of a grade, but somehow I don't think that position feels right for him anyway. (And while potions would be the logical place for his grade to fall through, I can't imagine being without the Snape/Harry interaction in books 6 and 7, so either Harry has to make it into Advanced Potions somehow, or Occlumancy under Snape will have to continue.) Perhaps Charms will be the failing point, since he didn't think he had to worry about that test as much. We'll see, though, since JK said she thinks Charms is a softer subject than Transfiguration. I don't know what other careers Harry has considered, but I think he's shown that he'd make a terrific DADA teacher and I'd love to see him take that route. ~Marie, who is wondering whether Neville will turn out to be a Healer, since he's very good at Herbology and is much better at Potions without Snape breathing down his neck. He certainly has compassion and his parents' case might well be inspiration. From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Jul 1 00:39:32 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 00:39:32 -0000 Subject: OOP: Mnistry security (was Disappointing) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66244 Scott wrote: > I know people have > brought this up, but at the point Harry et al. go into the Ministry > via the phonebooth he was still considered a "nutcase" and a liar > who likes to play the hero. If there is ANY sort of screening > process for people entering the MoM then I feel sure "Harry Potter- > Rescue Mission" would be right up there on the NO ADMITTANCE LIST > with "Voldemort-Murdering Spree" or something similar. I think this is a joke of JKR's with a serious point. (On beginning to re-read I find there is more humour than I at first realised) The serious point is that, with Fudge's attitude to the real dangers that threaten, any security system is going to seem laughable. David, still interested in movie influences on OOP From marie_mouse at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 00:46:55 2003 From: marie_mouse at hotmail.com (Marie Jadewalker) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 00:46:55 -0000 Subject: OOP: Why Weren't the Weasleys in the Order?; Molly's (and others') flaws In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66245 > Penny wrote: > > >>>> It really is *Odd* that the Weasleys weren't in the Order the > first time, isn't it? They were certainly old enough ---- they > almost certainly must be older than Lily and James (if we believe > that Lily and James had Harry when they were still in their early > 20s for example). I wonder if this is important in some way. <<<< David replied: > Sounds like the cue for all those Imperius!Arthur theories again. Well, if not Imperius!Arthur, then at least the Missing Weasley Child aspect of it. Something to explain why he reacted so strongly to the Dark Mark at the Quidditch World Cup. Penny again: > >>>> MOLLY'S SHORTCOMINGS -- I know I won't be popular for saying > it, but Molly Weasley is rapidly becoming one of my least favorite > characters. I completely agree that she just needs to get a grip, > and she *really, really* ought to stop smothering her own kids so > much (and she certainly should *stop* trying to smother kids who > are not her own, Harry and Hermione). Her interactions with Fred & > George really leave me cold. And my perception is that she's > warmed to Ron solely because he's a prefect now. And, I have > always despised the way she hen-pecks Arthur. And what is she > *doing* for the Order anyway? All I saw is that she was making > meat balls one night. ::::rolls eyes:::::: <<<<< > Me (Marie): I also liked Molly less in this book, partly because she was so overprotective, which reminded me a bit of me own mum. ;) But the thing that really bothered me was the "That's everyone in the family" line. Not only does that leave out the twins, but what about poor Ginny? She's not old enough yet for them to know whether or not she'll be a prefect. Is Molly assuming that Ginny's already too far along the "Fred and George" plan? David: > To me the crucial scene in OOP, which transforms our view of Molly > (and confirms it for some of our more prescient members, though not > me) is the boggart scene. The true Molly is revealed here. It is > apparent that her 'woes', as JKR calls them, but really the damage > done to her in the past, are much deeper than can be dealt with > by 'getting a grip'. I think this is why I like her better now: I > find it hard to like any character who has no vulnerability that is > bigger than they are. It seems to me pretty well a dead cert now > that there is a murdered Weasley sibling lurking in the past, and > this has haunted Molly's thoughts for all the time we have known > her. Full marks to those who theorised that before OOP - as I say, > not me. > > Seeing her family members dead, she is unable to think of anything > to make that funny, to make Riddikulus effective. That says to me > that the fear of her family members being murdered grips *her* more > than she can fight, and must therefore derive from some past trauma. Marie: I was always intrigued by the Missing Weasley theories, but like you, I think they have much more canon basis now. I wonder wether this poor child was male or female. Somehow in my mind it's a girl, two years older than Percy, who was named something like Daphne Elizabeth. Percy idolized her. When she was killed, the Weasleys changed Percy's alphabetical name (something like Eustace perhaps? -- sorry, I want Percy to reform!) and named him after one of Dumbledore's middle names instead. I think if Percy really is Percival after Dumbledore, it's significant that he DROPPED the more formal name in ministry usage when he's anti-Dumbledore. I further imagine that Ginny's full name is Elizabeth, after the departed sister, but she's called Ginny (From the "Virgin Queen," Elizabeth) rather than "Liz" or whatever the sister's nickname had been to make her distinct. ~Marie, who apologizes if that last bit was incoherant; they're about to close the library so I've got to go! From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 00:47:53 2003 From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 00:47:53 -0000 Subject: Why should LV fear DD at all? [spoilers] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66246 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan" wrote: > | > | > | > | > | > | > Hi All, > > --- In HPforGrownups syndicateblue wrote: > > We dedude from the prophecy says that the only one who has the > power > > to destroy Voldemort is either Neville Longbottom or Harry > Potter. > > We also know that Voldemort knows at least that much. Why then > > should he - Voldemort - fear Dumbledore > > > Dumbledore does not have the power to > overcome Voldemort. But that may just mean that eventually > Dumbledore would have to enlist the help of the one who fulfills the > prophesy ? in the meantime he could hold Voldemort captive. > > Cheers, > > Dumbledad. now me, I had thought about this as I was reading, but the fact that Dumbledore kept insisting that there are eventualities far worse than death suggests he was threatening Voldemort with something that was mutually understood between them. What this is, I have no idea, but it's fun imagining different possibilities! There is the other possibility that Voldemort simply does not *know* that DD cannot completely destroy him. Afterall he was desperately trying to get the prophecy at that time, so presumably he was still unaware that Harry is the only one capable of killing him permanently. -Mary From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 01:06:00 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 01:06:00 -0000 Subject: Babes and Skanks of CoS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66247 I, Darrin Burnett, give you the Babes and Skanks of Chamber of Secrets. Remember, these are not meant to be in order. Babes: Hermione Granger - Damn Right I Solved It! Babe Ginny Weasley - Keep An Eye on This Babe Babe Molly Weasley - Cooking Sausages Babe Prof. Sprout - Mandrake Babe Moaning Myrtle - Chilling in the U-Bend Babe. Skanks: Aunt Petunia - Slave Driver Skank. Mrs. Finch - Petrified Skank. Penelope Clearwater - You Can Do Better Than Percy Skank Maadame Pince - Anal Librarian Skank The Wife of Vernon's Boss - Geez, Woman, They're Only Birds Skank. And there you have it, the Babes and Skanks of CoS. Darrin - I love the 80s Moment: "When you played Tetris, you wouldn't blink for like a half an hour, and then you'd close your eyes and be playing it in your head!" From gandharvika at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 01:10:22 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 01:10:22 +0000 Subject: (OoP FILK) You're Telling The Truth Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66248 Spoiler Space, just in case... R E A D T H E B O O K A L R E A D Y You're Telling The Truth (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Take The Long Way Home_ by Super Tramp) Midi is here: http://www.midifilearchive.com/Rock-pop/supertramp.html This is one of the best Midis I've ever heard. Dedicated to Robert, Lilac's husband, who is slowly becoming a Potter-freak just like his wife. It won't be long before we see him posting on this site with the best of them! :)> You were right there when Cedric died And then you saw Lord Voldemort rise You're telling the truth You're telling the truth Now you're a joke in the Prophet's news Articles to discredit you But you're telling the truth You're telling the truth Four long weeks in suspense with Muggles and it felt so hard 'Till the Advance Guard came to get you Kept in the dark so you ask your friends Hermione and Ron, "What is going on?" But they don't have a clue It's back to Hogwarts for your fifth year Accusations are all you hear But you're telling the truth You're telling the truth Noticing they all point and stare You try to pretend that you don't care You're telling the truth You're telling the truth They're saying you're making up stories just for the attention You get a detention from that witch Umbridge Writing lines with your blood as the wounds cut deep in your hand You can no longer stand this treatment any more You're on the edge and you find yourself snapping at your best friends You want it to end, the anger's swelling It's getting worse and even the thought of Dumbledore stings you too He's ignoring you You don't know what went wrong The day will come when they'll realize You're not the one telling all the lies You're telling the truth... (repeat 14 more times) -Gail B...Man, I dig this song the most! _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Tue Jul 1 01:15:18 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 18:15:18 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP - Our Not-So-Solid Rock Solid Predictions - My Vote for the Winner Message-ID: <410-2200372111518699@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 66249 Hi, Everyone, This is in response to the recent post which listed various OoP predictions made by list members (list posted by Cindy, compiled by Derannimer and Dicentra), so we could see how close people came to what JKR really wrote. What a great read! In her introduction, Cindy wondered if we could name a winner, so I decided to vote for my favourites - maybe we can come up with a consensus (or at least a list of the top prediction-makers) here on HP4GUs. I was afraid this would be a bit OT, but the mods approved it to be posted (thanks, Kelley!), so here goes . . . My vote for the winning OoP prediction goes to . . . ***Tyler*** "The boy lying in the flower bed is Dudley. He's lying there because he's unconcious after Dementors (sent by Fudge under pressure from Lucius Malfoy who is insisting that Harry murdered Cedric Griggory) storm the Dudley household. Harry casts a Petronus to drive the dementors away, but ends up facing MOM problems for using underage magic." WOW! Although he had several details wrong, the parts that he did get right were scarily on target, creative and and not at all obvious (as opposed to, for example, "Hermione will be a prefect" ). And the final sentence of his prediction is entirely accurate. So, my vote goes to Tyler. I also award an honourable mention to JoDel: "The major overall conflict for Book Five will be between Dunbledore and the Ministry rather than Harry and Voldemort. And it will take the Dementors' change of alliegance to knock Fudge's policies out of place. By this time Dumbledore *may* have been forcably removed from his position as Headmaster, in which case he might be reinstated at the end -- or he may be rendered inaccessible to Harry by being drafted to take over as interim Minister of Magic. It will only be after the Dementor disaster that this book's Harry/Voldemort subtext becomes prominent, and will be the big dramatic climax to the book." She was right on target here with a huge part of the plot, although her timing regarding the Dementors is a bit off. Her prediction about Dumbledore being removed was spot on. Great prediction, but not as specific as Tyler's, which is why I gave his a higher rating. Anyone else want to vote? :-) Wendy (Who forgot to post her OWN predictions before the release of OoP, but would have been 1 for 3 . . . Lucius kills Fudge, becomes MfM; Hagrid Dies; Death Eaters break out of Azkaban. Even if I had posted them, I certainly wouldn't have come close to the genius of Tyler's prediction, though ). From hieya at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 01:16:54 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 01:16:54 -0000 Subject: OOP: Grimmauld Place Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66250 I have a few quick questions: Was Sirius's mother born into the Black family? Her portrait kept referring to 12 Grimmauld Place as 'the house of my fathers'. If she was born a Black, why does Sirius have her last name and not his father's? Thanks greatlit2003 From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 01:19:30 2003 From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 01:19:30 -0000 Subject: OOP(kinda): Houses and Percy (Was, Re: replies: OOP Posts since Release Day...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66251 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > s > p > o > i > l > e > r > s > p > a > c > e > > > >> Calimora wrote: > > << Slytherin house doesn't seem to gather all of ambitious people >> > > I've always felt that Slytherin House accumulates not so much the > ambitious as the unscrupulous, those who aren't picky about what > means they use to achieve their ends, even if their ends are > un-ambitious things like "obey Draco". I always wondered why Percy was not sorted into Slytherin. He certainly has the ambition and the will to do pretty much anything for power. I never liked Percy (as my many posts on the 'Percy is evil' issue many moons ago can verify :) ) and I see his behaviour towards his family in OOP as vinidication of my position. I am not seeking to reopen the Percy debate, merely trying to ascertain why he was put in Gryffindor. He is not brave in the slightest, he only seems to want to be the favour of whoever is seen to have the most authority at any given time, McGonnagal and Dumbledore, then Crouch sr, now Fudge. It will be interesting to see if he changes colours again in the next book when it seems DD will once again be the 'main man'. In many ways he reminds me of Pettigrew (Again why Gryfindor??). Anyway, the point here is that Percy's personality seems to fit more with the Slytherin ethos than that of Gryffindor. It could be that it was simply a matter that he is a Weasley who are all through and through Gryff's. I know the issue of family and houses has arisen before, but the commonly used example of the Patil's in different houses is flawed. The Hat might have simply been trying to avoid twin rivalry which is so common (I know of a few occassions when twins have been sent to different schools to avoid this) -Mary (sorry about the long windedness!! also apologies if this has come up previously, I've lost touch with what was said over the last year or so :( ) From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 01:21:49 2003 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 01:21:49 -0000 Subject: OOP: Phineas Nigellus and his future role in the series Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66252 I posted something along these lines earlier when I posted how "second cousins once removed" works, but I wanted to put this theory out in a separate post. Sirius and Arthur are second cousins once removed. This means at some point between the two of them they have a great-grandfather and a great-great-grandfather in common. Because Arthur is the elder of the two, for this theory I assume he is in the older generation. Arthur and Sirius had a relative in common quite a ways back who would be Arthur's great-grandfather and Sirius' great-great- grandfather. Sirius mentions that Phineas Nigellus is his great- great-grandfather. Even though Sirius would have 16 great-great grandfathers, the fact that JKR mentioned both Phineas' relationship to Sirius and the Sirius/Arthur relationship makes me wonder if Phineas isn't the common ancestor. That would make Phineas Arthur's great-grandfather as well. This might help explain all the Weasley boys being prefects/HB. They have a birthright from a previous headmaster, albeit one who was quite strict and disliked (sounds like Percy). Due to the fact that the Weasleys are considered blood traitors, they've either forgotten or refuse to acknowledge their own ancestors (as the rest of the family refuses to acknowledge them). Even though Sirius was pretty much disowned from the Blacks, Phineas was still upset when he found out Sirius was dead. I'm sure Dumbledore is aware of this, so he should have Phineas play an even greater role in the last two books, seeing as the Weasley family is now entrenched in the revived Order and Ron is Harry's best friend. I would like to see Phineas used as a spy on his family in the future books. Since there are no Blacks left, the painting at 12 Grimmauld place may go to either Bella or Narcissa. That would be an invaluable tool to have for espionage and finding out what the enemy is up to. Any thoughts? bowlwoman From idlerat at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 01:29:58 2003 From: idlerat at yahoo.com (idlerat) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 01:29:58 -0000 Subject: OOP: obviousness, HG, SPEW (was Re: OOP: Housing MMWP, In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66253 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kirstini" wrote: > [idlerat paraphrases: complex defense of the proposition that MWPP were all Gryffindors; look "up thread" for details.] Now me (idlerat): I've been enjoying your posts, kirstini. It has always been painfully obvious to me that MWPP were all in Gryffindor, to the point that I couldn't comprehend arguing about it or even considering the evidence, let alone laying it out. I salute your patience and feel vindicated by the case you have made, which I regard as conclusive. (I guess I could just say, "ITA," but then how would I justify using up the bandwidth?;D) In general, I find fascinating the degree to which the HP books seem to inspire their readers to read against the grain, and to adopt an extreme literal-mindedness, such that anything not explicitly barred in so many words by canon becomes a possibility. Then of course there is the transparency with which the reading can reflect the prejudices of the reader, as in the case of Hermione and the house elves -- to wit: In spite of JKR's repeated assertion that Hermione is her alter, and in spite of Dumbledore's speeches, and in spite of the object lessons in compassion delivered by the stories of Hagrid and Snape, in particular, many readers still insist that Hermione's desire to see the elves freed is a character flaw, and that we should have nothing but disdain for her arrogance. The rage they feel! I know I'm changing the subject, but I guess I want to complicate the point I just made in the previous paragraph. MWPP as Gryffindors seems factually obvious, but it's easy to slide from this to being sure that one's moral judgments are obvious... My Hermione-love reflects my prejudices and wishes pretty thoroughly, that's for sure. ratty badge-sporting S.P.E.W. member p.s. a very big grin to whoever posted saying that he didn't know what HG would do with her life, except that it would be AWESOME! From beelissa at nycap.rr.com Tue Jul 1 01:31:48 2003 From: beelissa at nycap.rr.com (Melissa Worcester) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:31:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP - Our Not-So-Solid Rock Solid Predictions - My Vote for the Winner References: <410-2200372111518699@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <003801c33f70$8a3f09e0$dba5c318@CPQ21816182602> No: HPFGUIDX 66254 JoDel's prediction (in part): >"The major overall conflict for Book Five will be between >Dunbledore and the Ministry rather than Harry and Voldemort. And it >will take the Dementors' change of alliegance to knock Fudge's >policies out of place. >It will only be after the Dementor disaster that this book's >Harry/Voldemort subtext becomes prominent, and will be the big >dramatic climax to the book." Wendy's comment: >She was right on target here with a huge part of the plot, although her >timing regarding the Dementors is a bit off. Her prediction about >Dumbledore being removed was spot on. If you consider "the Dementor disaster" to mean the Dementor's changing allegiance and leaving their posts at Azkaban, which I believe is mentioned at the end of OoP, then her timing is correct. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu Tue Jul 1 01:34:23 2003 From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 01:34:23 -0000 Subject: OOP: Adolescent Angst Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66255 It seems to me that in OOP JKR has done a very good job of portraying Harry as a troubled, formerly abused mid-teen. Harry's tendencies to keep things to himself have been a running theme since the first book, and it is easy to see where they come from (his initials are VD). In OOP, his "chip on the shoulder" is exacerbated by (1) Dumbledore's decision to distance himself from Harry (thereby evoking feelings of abandonment developed while living with the Dursleys) and (2) the flood of testosterone reaching his brain. As a consequence he reacts uniformly badly to many of the stressors of year 5: OWLS, girls, Umbridge, girls, Snape, girls, isolation, girls, etc... This gives OOP its downbeat tone that a lot of people don't like, but which is actually a very advanced theme for a "children's" book. I think that JKR has done a remarkable job of writing about an extremely difficult age for a boy. Now I'll have to go re- read "Catcher in the Rye" to look for parallels between Harry and Holden. -JamesF From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Tue Jul 1 01:38:14 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:38:14 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP(kinda): Houses and Percy (Was, Re: replies: OOP Posts... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66256 Mary: > > s > > p > > o > > i > > l > > e > > r > > s > > p > > a > > c > > e > > > > > > I always wondered why Percy was not sorted into Slytherin. He > certainly has the ambition and the will to do pretty much anything > for power. I never liked Percy (as my many posts on the 'Percy is > evil' issue many moons ago can verify :) ) and I see his behaviour > towards his family in OOP as vinidication of my position. I am not > seeking to reopen the Percy debate, merely trying to ascertain why > he was put in Gryffindor. He is not brave in the slightest, he only > seems to want to be the favour of whoever is seen to have the most > authority at any given time, McGonnagal and Dumbledore, then Crouch > sr, now Fudge. I have a thought on this. Percy chose to be in Gryffindor. I regrettably don't have my copy of CoS on hand, but I'm sure you'll remember DD's speech to Harry about making choices. Now. Why Gryffindor? Let's start with the 'why nots' Well, I can see why he wouldn't want to be in Slytherin. They have a very bad reputation, for one. It's obvious Percy doesn't want to mix with the 'wrong sort' from what happened between him and his parents in OOP. And Slytherin (to everyone else) is considered the wrong sort. So, Why not Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff? He's certainly clever and loyal (to a point). Personally, I think the choice for being in Gryffindor rested with obligation. Perhaps Percy was raised thinking Gryffindor was the best house/the top one to get into it...perhaps he wanted to live up to Bill and Charlie and give his brothers and sister a good role model (assuming they'd be Gryffindors too) In his letter to Ron in OOP he even says he is proud Ron is following in his footsteps (by becoming a Prefect) and taking on responsibility and so forth. Soo...IMO it can all be summed up in one word: Choice. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Jul 1 01:40:36 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 01:40:36 -0000 Subject: House pride post-Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66257 I wrote: > IMO, the adult > characters who show strong house allegiance are those who have not > experienced much of life away from the school. > >snip< > Sirius: spent most of his time in Azkaban > >snip< > Otherwise, there seems to be remarkably little reference to house > allegiance in the adult world. Only the Malfoys and Weasleys give > any evidence, and what there is comes from the children. > Kirstini asked: > Does Sirius ever show strong house allegiance? This would really > help my argument... What was in my mind is the disparagng way he refers to Snape's gang of Slytherins - that is he still categorises them by house. Admittedly that is looking back at schooldays, when you might slip back into school modes of thought anyway. Apart from that, I can't think of anything. Interestingly, when he describes how he was a disappointment to his family, he doesn't say anything like "My mother nearly died of shame when I was sorted into Gryffindor" or "My father disapproved of my having Gryffindor friends despite being in Slytherin". David From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 01:43:48 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 01:43:48 -0000 Subject: OOP: That "Oh my gosh" moment. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66258 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Martin" > wrote: > > Obligatory spoiler space. > > > > > > > > > > > > You > > mean > > you > > haven't > > finished > > the > > book > > yet? > > > > > > > > > > > > There were several times I spoke out loud to the characters trying > to > > stop them doing something or getting them to do something or just > > exclaimed aloud in surprise. I call these my "Oh my gosh" moments. > > Here are mine: > > > > 1) Harry casting a Lumos spell without his wand in his hand - I > > went "Mmmm, you've not done that before have ye laddie?" in a kind > of > > gruff Mad-Eye sort of way. > > > > 2) Petunia blurting out that Dementors guarded Azkaban - my jaw hit > > the desk and I said aloud "good God, Petunia!" > > > > 3) The Black family tree tapestry - so many names, so much > > information, I just went burbleburbleburble... with information > > overload. > > > > 4) Umbridge's speech at the welcome feast - I said to her - "What? > > WHAT? Sit down you silly woman, you haven't got a clue how things > are > > done round here." (ha ha little did I then know...) > > > > 5) Ron sticking his oar in about Quidditch when Cho was chatting up > > Harry - "Ron. Just. Shut. Up!" > > > > 6) When Umbridge tortured Harry with the evil quill - my reaction > > was "Oh God, you sick, twisted, nasty old hag. I hope you get > what's > > coming to you." > > > > 7) Snapes memories of an abused childhood - I said "OH, my. Oh, you > > poor man." (put down book for a minute to deal with lump in throat). > > > > 8) Dumbeldore's exit from his office with Fawkes - "You flash > > bastard!" > > > > 9) Luna generally in most of her scenes - "Mmmmm, you're a bit > spooky > > you are. I think there's more to you than meets the eye my girl." > > > > 10) When the Inquisitor squad was set up - "Urgh. No. Sick. Nasty. > > Stop it you evil cow." > > > > 11) Fred and George's exit - I went "Yes! Yes! YES! Ha, stick that > in > > your pipe and smoke it Umbridge!" > > > > 12) Harry standing listening to the whispering voices beyond the > > veil - I sat bolt upright and said "No, Harry, do NOT go in there. > > Absolutely no way, get away from there!" > > > > 13) As the DEs appeared in the prophecy room and the likelehood of > a > > fight loomed up - "Rowling you cow, you can kill any of them can't > > you?" ;) > > > > 14) Hermione being hurt in the final fight - "NO, Hermione, don't > you > > die, don't you dare die." (little tear here). > > > > 15) Sirius' death - "Whaaaa? No, surely no. Noooooooo....!" > > > > 16) Dumbeldore in action against Tom - "Woah! Step aside, serious > > wizard coming through!" > > > > 17) Harry smashing up Dumbeldore's office - "Go on kid, go for it, > > get all that out of your system" (with tears down my face). > > > > 18) The prophecy - "Ummm, now what did that mean? Erm...exactly?" > > > > Those were my emotion spikes in OoP. Feel free to add to the list. > > > > Cheers > > Martin (who thinks 'Department of Mysteries' would be a good band > > name) > > > Me: > > I'm so glad to know that other people talk to fictional > characters . . . > > > My addition: > > When, at the end of Chapter 31, when Umbridge and Co. went after > Hagrid, and McGonagall came out to try to put a stop to it. "No, > Minerva, they'll waste you to! Come back! Oh, no!" I don't know what nubmer is this supposed to be, but anyhow my OH MY GOSH moment was: US Edition Chpater 32: Out of the Fire P. 747 - "NO!" shouted Hermione in a cracked voice from behind Millicent Bulstrode. "No - Harry - Harry, we'll have to tell her!" I was like NOOOO HERMIONE! I had a feeling she was going to crack under all the pressure of school and because of Harry's constant yelling. I just couldn't believe she'd rat out on him, but thank God JKR eased my worries. Greicy From pjuel13 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 01:46:01 2003 From: pjuel13 at aol.com (pjuel13 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:46:01 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP: What Snape is really doing out there... Message-ID: <1c2.bf1a85a.2c3241d9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66259 Irene says: >Well, it's a question of chicken and egg, I'm afraid. :-) >She would not, but then Sirius would not request it. And you know this how exactly? Could you point me to the paragraph I missed? >He said "Sit down, Potter". Does not get more neutral than that. Hmm, well Black seemed to take it as an order, as did Harry. But then of course their perceptions must be imediately discounted. >Excuse for what? He talks to Harry in a perfectly civil and professional >way. In what disfunctional workplace does a "sneer curling one's mouth" (US ed pg 518_ indicate civility and professionalism? >Sirius throws in his face the fact that it's his house, and from Snape's >reaction there is something bigger behind it. Oh, so only Sirius' words are allowed to have things read into them? "Sit Down Potter" is perfectly neutral. But "It's my house you know" is a personal attack? Is it not possible that Sirius was simply reminding Snape that it -was- his house and as such Snape doesn't have the right to bar him from be present anywhere within it? And could not Snape's reaction simply be that he's not at all happy at having been reminded of that? >Then he casts doubts on Snape's ability to teach it, and delivers >the ultimate insult: you are an unreformed Death Eater. Lets go through the -whole- chronology here shall we? You seem to have left a few bits out. Just after Sirius reminds Snape that he's in Sirius' house. We get the first comments regarding Sirius' supposed uselessness and cowardice: "I know how you like to feel...involved." "'I am sure that you must feel -ah- frustrated by the fact thay you can do nothnig useful' Snape laid a delicate stress on the word, 'for the Order'" "Snape's sneer became more pronounced" Only after that did Sirius ask "Why can't Dumbledore teach Harry?" then some shots at Harry: "It is the headmaster's privilege to delegate less enjoyable tasks. I assure you I did not beg for the job." "If anybody asks, you are taking Remedial Potions. Nobody who has seen you in myclasses could deny you need them" and another shot at Sirius: "unlike you I do not have unlimeted leisure time" and finally a shot at James and Harry: "you'll know he's so arrogant that criticism simply bounces off of him." And only then do we get: "I don't care if Dumbledore thinks you've reformed. I know better." So it's not quite "poor abused misunderstood Snape was only trying to be a professional and they drove him to the point of using harsh words." He was having no problem using harsh words from the start of the encounter. >This is what bugs me - how can Dumbledore blame Snape for Harry's >failure? I wrote before that Snape was surprisingly civil and >professional during the lessons. Cold, yes, but civil. Surprisingly civil? What, should he not have been? And that of course leaves aside the whole issue of whether or not he was in fact consistently professional and civil. Is showing visable dislike for a student professional? "Harry sat down and so did Snape, his cold black eyes fixed unblinkingly upon harry, dislike etched in every line of his face." (US ed. pg 529) Is a remark like "I can only hope that you prove more adept at it that Potions" professional or civil? (pg 530) Is "Dim though you may be" (pg 590) professional or civil? Is parroting the MoM line about Harry seeking out danger in order to get attention: "perhaps you actually enjoy having these visions and dreams, Potter. Maybe they make you feel special - important?" civil and professional? (pg 591) >Harry made absolutely no effort to succeed in these lessons. Absolutley no effort? Is that your reading of the text. Harry stops trying to clear his mind before sleeping prior to the pensive incident but I think that saying he was making "absolutely no effort" is frank hyperbole. He seems to be trying very hard during the sessions that are documented in the text and getting a review of his most painful memories and increasingly severe chronic pain as his reward. And when Harry says outright that Snape isn't telling him how after Snape tells him to repell with his bain, Snape replies only with "Manners, Potter." Harry wan't making the sort of effort that would have prevented Voldemort from planting an image in his mind, but neither was Snape appearing to do a very good job of actually teaching Harry how to do that. And as for Dumbledore blaming Snape. He doesn't blame Snape, he blames himself for believing that Snape could refrain from letting his hatred of James Potter negatively impact his ability to teach Harry. And beyond that, well, the teacher and adult is presumed to be the more responsible, the one better able to set aside their feelings and do the job. One would expect Snape, a man 20+ years older, would be able to to handle the unpleasant emotions involved in dealing with the son of his most hated enemy. On would expect him to do some effective teaching, teaching that would not have involved quite so much pain or at the very least, would not have left Harry quite so confused as to what was actually happening or why with each lesson he was feeling more out of control and more in pain than he was before. In Harry's conversation with Dumbledore he says flat out that that he hurt more after the lessons than he did before them and while Dumbledore does contradict Harry's assertion that Snape was softening him up for Voldemort, he as much as says that Snape's inability to overcome his feelings regarding James Potter may well have influenced his ability to effectively teach Harry. >No, but he did nothing of the sort towards Harry in this scene. Nothing of the sort? I must have a different copy of the book "Snape's sneer became more pronounced.'Occlumency, Potter'" (pg 519) A sneer deepend by Harry and directed at his question. "it is a headamster's privilidge to delgate less enjoyable tasks" (pg 519) Implying that not only does Snape view teaching Harry as undesirable but Dumbledore does too. Regarding the remedial potions cover story "Nobody who has seen you in my classes could deny you need them." A direct attack on Harry's academic ability and intellect. "You'll know he's so arrogant that critisim simply bounces off him" (pg 520) Implying that Harry is so arrogant that cruelty or callousness is excusable because it will have no effect. I don't dislike Snape, I think he's an interesting, complex, and compelling character and I enjoy learning more about him. His contradictions add a tremendous amount of depth to the story and lend real weight to the JKR mantra of chosing who and what you will be. But I don't understand at all the efforts by some of his supporters to explain away everything he does or strip from him any responsiblity for the effect of his actions. From what I've seen in some postings Snape never does anything wrong - has never done anything wrong, he's always the victim, always misunderstood, or always eyeball deep in some mindbendingly machiavellian scheme of positively byzantine complexity that justifies even the most blatantly cruel, partisan, or just plain nasty act that he's ever done. And I think that Snape is better than that. He's a big boy. He's capable of making mistakes just like the rest of us and he's strong enough to take responsibility for them. -Stripedog [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 01:50:55 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 01:50:55 -0000 Subject: OOP: Weasley Ship/ was:More SHIP than you'd think! H,R,H,G In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66260 > ~Megalynn > Who admits she likes all stories to end up with people happily > paired, recognizes that some find that revolting, and proudly waves > her One-Big-Happy-Weasley-Family banner :) I don't find OBHWF revolting, just certain character SHIPping revolting. :p Either SHIPping way, they'll still be OBHF. I see Harry and Hermione together. And that's that. I don't want to see Ginny with Harry unless it is guaranteed that they will break up and Harry and Hermione will get together later. I see no Ron and Hermione development throughout the book, but numerous Harry and Hermione. Mind you, I don't think that they know of each other subconscious feelings. There's also the fact that we do not know what is going on with Hermione and Krum. Greicy, who like OBHF better than OBHWF and think that Bill and Tonks should hit it off quite nicely From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 01:57:34 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 01:57:34 -0000 Subject: OOP: Disappointing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66261 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: And, I know people have > brought this up, but at the point Harry et al. go into the Ministry > via the phonebooth he was still considered a "nutcase" and a liar > who likes to play the hero. If there is ANY sort of screening > process for people entering the MoM then I feel sure "Harry Potter- > Rescue Mission" would be right up there on the NO ADMITTANCE LIST > with "Voldemort-Murdering Spree" or something similar. Annemehr: I took this as a joke (and enjoyed it very much)! Here is this elaborate system to screen visitors, beautifully automated (by magic, of course), and /nobody's watching who's coming in/! Nobody's updating the list, if it exists, of who may be a security risk, and when the security wizard goes home for the night, it turns out there is no night shift! And the wording of the badge itself was hilarious: exactly true, and the exact opposite of what the Ministry would have wanted, had they been PAYING ATTENTION! It makes me laugh all the more because I've seen much the same in real life -- the most elegant system in the world (to do anything) is only as good as the humans who are supposed to be running it. Perhaps this little quirk in the system will come in handy in the next book? Scott: > [Phyllis wrote:] > "No one from the Order guarding the prophecy when the DEs show up at > the end" > --Like I said I thought they'd been killed by the DEs, but > apparently not... > Annemehr: Or lured away on a wild goose chase, perhaps (extremely kind of the DEs if that's true, though)... Phyllis: > "No mention of Halloween whatsoever" Scott: > --No mention of Harry's birthday either, and that's a first. Well > there was a passing mention of his "birthday card" but the day > itself was a non-issue. Annemehr: And Harry also threw away the Honeydukes chocolate Ron and Hermione had sent him! I took this as an emphatic indicator of how angry he was; his fifteenth birthday was no better than any of the ones between his second and tenth! Annemehr still digesting the book... From suzchiles at pobox.com Tue Jul 1 01:36:41 2003 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 18:36:41 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP - Our Not-So-Solid Rock Solid Predictions - My Vote for the Winner In-Reply-To: <410-2200372111518699@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000201c33f71$395f3120$d497e00c@attbi.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66262 Don't forget Brittney: 1. Hermoine will be made a prefect. 2. Dumbledore will find himself (temporarily) out of the position of headmaster at Hogwarts. It's a perfect prediction. Suzanne From sin_rm at prodigy.net Tue Jul 1 00:08:48 2003 From: sin_rm at prodigy.net (sin_rm) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:08:48 -0700 Subject: MM/SS Message-ID: <016c01c33f64$f36d1e40$da691e43@spock> No: HPFGUIDX 66263 After re-reading the scene at the end of OOP with Harry, Draco, Snape and McGonagall (where Harry says he will never forgive Snape ... never), I am stuck with a terrible fear that Harry might try to get revenge on Snape by betraying him to Voldemort. <> Also, where do people stand on the (unlikely) MM/SS ship?? Could they be married?? MC _________________________ Delurking for a moment to respond to this MM/SS thing. Assuming MM is Minerva McGonagall (duh me...I love reading the books but am not too quick on the uptake on some of this stuff), I have to say that I think she's too old for him. Erm...have to re-read it again, but WHY did Harry say he'd never forgive Snape? I know he did, but WHY did he? I'd have thought Harry might be a bit more grateful seeing as how Dumbledore explained everything to him regarding why Snape had to pretend he didn't "get" Harry's message about "Padfoot", etc. And about how Snape himself went out to look for Harry in the Forbidden Forest. I dunno....Harry was a bratty lil git in this book. Maybe that's the Slytherin in me talking, but geez...I think Harry needs to give some things a rest. Melanie From satrinax at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 00:21:12 2003 From: satrinax at hotmail.com (dragonelle01) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 00:21:12 -0000 Subject: OOP - Greasy haired odd kids In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66264 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sydney" wrote: > I reckon Snape's generally more confident demeanor is owed to the time > he spent as a spy. Firstly, in doing something genuinely heroic and > useful he could finally have something to hold himself up for > (certainly something he hugs close to his heart and throws in Sirius' > face every chance he gets). I get the same impression re: Snape's time as a spy improving his self-confidence. His loyalty to Dumbledore certainly seems to stem from solid conviction rather than blackmail or exclusive self- interest. I wonder if his break from the Death Eaters had anything to do with his abusive father? Snape Sr. seems the type to enjoy casting a good Crucio now and again. > His demeanor is certainly more confident, but I still think he's meant > to be seen as not taking much care of himself. I was a bit taken > aback to see Rickman in the movie strolling around in the wizarding > equivalent of Armani! Didn't ring quite true for me. His hair wasn't > greasy either.. grrrrr. I think another part of what baffles me is that we've been shown how much pain the underpants incident caused him. You'd think that would make him-- I dunno-- try harder to appear presentable. But yeah, you're probably right about JKR's intent, and you made a good point about Rickman there. Movie-Snape is a bit more Hollywood than book- Snape would be. > The greasy hair I think JKR kept on as a mark of how much baggage > Snape is still carrying from his messed-up youth in Knockturn Alley > (c'mon, he HAS to have grown up there!). I'm with you on the Knockturn Alley point-- I'm convinced as well :- ) Ah, the Snapes-- an old, but sketchy wizarding family with little to be proud of other than their pureblood status. > If he ever goes through some > therapy and pulls himself together, she'd let us know in a steamy > shower scene. Both equally likely scenarios sadly. ...Steamy...shower...scene? > -- Sydney (hopefully anticipating a Snape-guided tour of the mean > streets of Knockturn Alley in Book 6) Tracey (who'd like to be signed up for that tour, please!) From magicroxx at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 00:26:50 2003 From: magicroxx at yahoo.com (magicroxx) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 00:26:50 -0000 Subject: OOP-Harry & Unforgivables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66265 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" wrote: > S > P > A > C > E > > > > > Some of us are upset that Harry attempted the Crucio spell. . . Has > it hit anyone else that, due to the prophecy, Harry is going to have > to -- HAVE to, no choice in the matter -- use Avada Kedavra? > > And, how do you learn how to do that? How do yolu practice? > > Bohcoo I don't think Harry is going to have to use the Avada Kedavra curse. I don't think it would work. In POA, when Lupin and Black wanted to kill Pettigrew, Harry stopped them. He knew what he would be risking. He hated Pettigrew. It wasn't even himself holding the wand and he stopped it from happening. Harry is not a murderer, there will be another way he defeats Voldemort because I don't think he is capable of using those curses. that is why he was so upset by the prophecy. In all his anger after Sirius died, he may have wanted to hurt Bellatrix, but it wasn't enough. He is not EVIL, he has not lost all the 'human' left in him. I think his poor attempt at trying it and failing, was JK's attempt to show us what is coming in a spiritual/moral sense. magicroxx From Cfitz812 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 00:54:41 2003 From: Cfitz812 at aol.com (Claire) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 00:54:41 -0000 Subject: OOP: Mnistry security (was Disappointing) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66266 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David" wrote: > Scott wrote: > > > I know people have > > brought this up, but at the point Harry et al. go into the > Ministry > > via the phonebooth he was still considered a "nutcase" and a liar > > who likes to play the hero. If there is ANY sort of screening > > process for people entering the MoM then I feel sure "Harry Potter- > > Rescue Mission" would be right up there on the NO ADMITTANCE LIST > > with "Voldemort-Murdering Spree" or something similar. > Me: I also found the lack of security at the MOM disconcerting. Especially for one (Harry) who had previously been issued a badge reading "Disciplinary Hearing". Was the guard away because LV and cohorts were on premises and bewitched him off because LV had drawn Harry there because of the dream? Claire (who is a first-time poster but is totally besotted with HP at the age of, well, never mind) From Cfitz812 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 01:02:16 2003 From: Cfitz812 at aol.com (Claire) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 01:02:16 -0000 Subject: Snape & Occlumency Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66267 Sorry if this has been mentioned already, but I've been out of town, there are too bloody many posts to read, and I'm crosseyed from trying. Anyway, if Snape is an accomplished Occlumens, could it be possible that he can close his mind to both DD and LV and work both sides against each other? I'm not sure I believe this, especially since Snape is an antagonist in the truest sense. And I was surprised I actually felt pity for him after his "worst memory" (not unlike Harry not believing he could meet someone he hated more than Dudley until he met Draco). Claire (who still can't believe she stumbled on this group. Thank goodness!) From whammer11 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 01:10:53 2003 From: whammer11 at yahoo.com (Ignacio) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 01:10:53 -0000 Subject: OOtP: Molly's Shortcomings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66268 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "megalynn44" wrote: > I also found it irritating that, of all the people coming in and out > of the Black house, Molly was the only one to cook and organize the > cleaning. Penny, I wondered too what exactly she was doing for the > Order, as I didn't see her do more than fuss over her family and > Harryand criticize Sirius and Mundungus. > > --jenny from ravenclaw, > > Now Me: > > I would like to defend Molly now. She is a stereotypical MOTHER. She > fuses and fretts and LOVES. She barks but she doesn't bite. She would > never disown one of her kids. She will always be there for them, and > if her encouraging and pushing her kids to be good at school is a bad > thing, then I think we have forgotten what a parent is. Even when > Percy said those Horribly outrageous things to Arther she still went > to London to try to patch things up. She took Harry in without a > second thought and loves him like her own child. She is a wonderful > asset not only to the kids but the order. Everyone needs a mother, > even the Order of the Pheonix, they need someone to care for everyone > and be there for everyone. > > > I asked before OOP what did Molly do with her time? If the Weasley's > were so strapped for cash why didn't she get a job, the kids are out > of the house most the year. However, now it is evident that that is > where she is in her element. She seems most talented at running a > household, and even though, especially today, not many people value > that, I think she is a valuable asset being the person she is. > > Just my two knuts > > ~Megalynn the only short-coming Molly has is that she loves her family too much. I dunno if that is a short-coming, or an asset. She is the typical mother. God Bless all of you out there who are moms... you gals really get the raw deal... Ignacio*sniff... I think I am going to call my mom...* Becerra From ugadawg02 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 02:05:45 2003 From: ugadawg02 at yahoo.com (ugadawg02) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 02:05:45 -0000 Subject: OOP: Re: What's in a name . . . (was: ...Luna/Lupin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66269 (snip) Could it be that Lupin meets his demise when he can't get to his potion, transforms, attacks someone (luna?) and has to be killed? (snip) I am starting to think that Luna might be a werewolf herself, hence the name meaning moon, and maybe the potions she mentions her mother having worked on was one to cure her of being a werewolf. We know Dumbledore has let other werewolfs attend Hogwarts and kept it quiet, perhaps Luna is one too, I just think that is more of what might be the case rather then Lupin having to be killed to stop from killing. RJ From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Tue Jul 1 02:06:29 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:06:29 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cruciatus (was: I am somewhat less disturbed than Wendy ) Message-ID: <410-22003721262914@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 66270 Sorry to have taken so long to respond to your post, Joe, but you said some really interesting things that I wanted to think through properly before responding. So, onward! Joe in SoFla wrote: "It is my cross to bear that impressive numbers of people disagree with me, with all my brilliance somehow unable to convince them I am right." Now me (Wendy): Hah! I know what you mean! Can we both be brilliant even if we fail to sway one another to our view of things? (I think we can) ;-) Now, back to the discussion of Harry's Cruciatus: Joe wrote: "I am of the mind the laws--for better or worse--reflect the moral outlook of a society at a given point in time." Wendy again: OOH! Very good point! Especially the bit about better or *worse.* I think in regards to the Cruciatus, this might go two ways. First, it is a highly illegal curse, punishable with a severe prison sentence. Wizarding society seems to be saying that it's not okay to cast Cruciatus. There was a time, however, in the not-so-distant past in which at least some segment of society felt it was okay for aurors to cast unforgiveables at Death Eaters. Not sure exactly where the majority of Wizarding society would stand on this right now. But now I digress . . . as I've said, I'm concerned with the moral implications for Harry, so it is entirely possible for me to recognize that something is accepted by the society in which I live (or the one in which Harry lives), and still feel that it is not morally appropriate. The death penalty is legal in my country, and a great many people here agree with it. Apparently, it does reflect the moral outlook of my society, and I still don't find it morally acceptable. So that's not an argument which is going to sway *my* feelings about Harry's casting of the curse. But let's move on to the really interesting stuff: Joe wrote: "I am not AS disturbed about this because I see a distinction between wanting to cause pain out of blind fury vs. out of sadism. This is why HP can NEVER (as things stand now, anyway) use such an Unforgivable Curse, because even in the case of a richly deserving target (such as Bellatrix) he cannot bring himself to enjoy it." Now Wendy (c'est moi): Reading this I had a bit of an AHA! moment as I think I finally got the point of what you'd been trying to say. Blind fury vs. sadism. This, I think, is a very good way to look at it. So, do I think Harry is a sadist (or even a potential sadist) for casting an unforgiveable? No. HOWEVER (you knew that was coming, didn't you ) I will also say that Harry does seem to be developing a bit of a mean streak. >. In the beginning of the book, we watched him push Dudley's buttons without any real provocation (well, any recent provocation - certainly Dudley is no saint ). And there are other moments when Harry takes some pleasure out of the discomfort of others. I'm thinking specifically of the scene when he arrives at Grimmauld Square and sees that Hedwig did as he asked, and chewed a bit on the fingers of Ron and Hermione (urging them to write Harry a proper letter), and Harry finds that "he was not at all sorry." (OoP, p 63, UK edition). I'm not suggesting this is sadism (please don't flame me, anyone). The most applicable definition in my dictionary for the word is "delight in cruelty." Harry hasn't been "delighting" in cruelty. He's been through h*ll and I would be utterly amazed if he wasn't royally honked off most of the time. Even so, he's not still the sweet little boy we met in the first book. Which is great. I don't want him to stay 11 forever. And myriad comments have been made on this list about his anger, which *right now* I see as a perfectly acceptable reaction to what's been happening in his life, as well as an age-appropriate behaviour. What concerns me is that this anger will not prove to be a phase, but will become a habit. Anger is a really ugly emotion to carry around with you unchecked for long periods of time, and I'm afraid that if Harry succumbs to too much blind fury and continues to indulge his emotions instead of learning to control them, it might morph into sadism at some point. He's already capable of taking his anger out on others in what seeems to me a mean-spirited way (hey - I've certainly done this myself many, many times. Not abnormal, but also not something of which to be proud). So, IMO, Harry has a lot of resentment and anger to work through before I'll feel he's completely out of danger. I wrote: " Again, this isn't about the legality of what he did - > it's about what might or might not be going on in Harry's heart and mind > when he's making these decisions. To which Joe responded: "Ah. (That's the sound of two paths diverging) But I make a distinction--feel free to do otherwise--between HP feeling hatred and HP feeling sadistic. I took that passage to mean HP wanted to punish Bellatrix, and the best his mind could do under the circumstances was this unforgivable curse...but his heart (!) wasn't in it." Now Wendy (me) again: I definitely do see a distinction between the two, as I've just discussed above. And I am not saying I think Harry is being sadistic. But I do disagree with you that Harry was trying to "punish" her (at least by the definition I *think* we're talking about - retribution). Yes - what he was doing was in response to her evil actions. But I think in casting the curse he was lashing out in a desire to cause pain (punish in the "inflict injury upon" sense of the word) - not because he thought she deserved retribution, but because he was so angry he wanted to hurt her. So, it seems you and I can agree to interpret this scene differently and be happy with that, yes? :-) Joe again: "I'll also ask you this, out of curiosity and not for any rhetorical purpose, let us assume the Cruciatus Curse was, for whatever reason, NOT unforgivable...would your views be modified? (I don't think mine would be, but I haven't scrutinized them that fully as re. hypotheticals.) I'm wondering if people (you in specific) are more concerned about the unforgivable aspect, or the "pain" aspect or the reflex aspect, etc." It's me again (Wendy): Well, my views would be ever-so-slightly modified. I would still feel that it was morally inappropriate to cast a curse designed solely to cause pain. I would still be concerned that Harry did so as a "reflex" (giving into his anger without seeming to think first). But at least the spectre of any possible legal ramification would be lifted - right now, I also question Harry's judgement in casting a highly illegal curse (especially in light of his recent experiences with the WW justice system). That one piece would be gone, but I am primarily concerned with the fact that he tried to use a method of torture on another human (even one as despicable as Bella). And before the flames start (not from you, Joe, but I'm concerned there might be people reading this who haven't followed the thread from the start), let me just repeat that I am not blaming Harry for his action, and I can entirely understand what brought him to cast an unforgiveable. I am concerned with his action because I think it showed poor judgement and I want Harry to develop into a happy and morally responsible person. I don't expect Harry to be perfect. But I do think it is interesting to look at his past actions and try and guess where they might take him in the future. That's why I'm worried about his casting the curse. If I was sure it was a one-off, I wouldn't give it much thought. But if it turns to be Harry's first step down the path of Dark Arts, well I would find that very disturbing, indeed. Joe again: "I am not HAPPY about HP having to end LV's life, but if we take "comfortable" to have overtones of resignation...then I guess I would say I am "at peace" (albeit VERY reluctantly) with the idea. I took my views of the prophecy from bit about "neither shall live..." And while I firmly believe LV is about as deserving of capital punishment as anyone ever could be, I would hope it wasn't HP who'd have to do that." Wendy (me) again: I'm not at all "comfortable" with it (as I'm sure you've already guessed ). I, too, am disturbed about the "neither shall live" bit of the prophecy. It sure sounds like Harry's destiny is to kill or be killed. It is also worth pointing out that Dumbledore seems to agree with your intepretation: (Page 744 of OoP, UK Ed) - "So, said Harry, dredging up the words from what felt like a deep well of despair inside him, "so does that mean that . . . that one of us has got to kill the other one . . . in the end?" "Yes," said Dumbledore. But I am still holding out hope that Dumbledore is wrong about this, and that Harry will find a way to vanquish Voldemort without becoming a killer himself. Hey, I hope for this stuff all the time in the real world, and am usually disappointed (at least by the actions of my own US government). But this *is* fiction. I can hope, can't I? Joe added: "Oh, and I have a good hypothesis for how HP could make LV join Regulus Black WITHOUT using an unforgivable curse: Somehow he uses the stunning spell and sends LV careening through the veil." Wendy again: Yes, but he'd still be actively ending Voldemort's life. It's not the unforgiveable aspect as much as the Harry taking a life aspect that bothers me. I am hoping for something more along the lines of Harry manages to exorcise all the evil from Voldemort, leaving a once-again-purely-human-all-nasty-snake-thing-stuff-gone Tom Riddle. Something corny like that. Thanks again! Love the discussion, and, for the record, chatting about this with you has lowered *my* disturbance level a bit. The more I think about it, the more I realise I do have faith in our lovely Harry to do the right thing in the end. :-) Or is it JKR I have faith in . . . Nope, she is *obviously* a sadist (proof - she killed Sirius ). Cheers! Wendy From ugadawg02 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 02:08:38 2003 From: ugadawg02 at yahoo.com (ugadawg02) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 02:08:38 -0000 Subject: OOP: Umbridge's observation of O.W.L.'s In-Reply-To: <1a0.1739dd79.2c32260b@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66271 (snip) This is, of course, an oxymoron, like "jumbo shrimp" or "military intelligence". Good point, what 'right thinking Ministry Offical' would have given her that much power to start with? RJ From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Jul 1 02:09:31 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 02:09:31 -0000 Subject: OOP: Lily's death (was Disappointing) In-Reply-To: <03ad01c33f46$ad5279f0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66272 Penny wrote: > I don't know if you've re-read it yet, but for me, the 2nd read through brought out the humor and the excitement that my initial read missed. I say that: I'm not finished with my re-read mind you, but so far, I'm seeing considerably more humor than I experienced on first read. Me too (Thestrals) I think that because he didn't *see* Lily die with knowledge of what he was seeing (if he actually *saw* it at all), this answer works for me. He *hears* things from his memory, but seeing the flash of green light is not the same thing as seeing the green light hitting his mother in the face and watching her fall to the ground and *knowing* that she's dead. A 15-month old can't experience death in the same way that a 15-year old can. And, we've no evidence that Harry *saw* anything relating to Lily's death, actually. Yes, indeed, while we can't be sure, the green light is presumably the curse that Voldemort aimed at Harry *after* Lily was dead. In fact, until Fawkes stopped the AK intended for Dumbledore, I had never envisaged that Lily might have jumped in the way of an AK intended for Harry - I assumed from Crouch Jr's statement that AK is essentially unstoppable that it doesn't work like that (I still find it slightly annoying that curses are like bullets - other spells don't seem to need a 'clear line of fire': e.g. accio gets the thing you want, not the thing your wand is pointing at). I had believed that Voldemort deliberately killed Lily so as to be able to kill Harry - so I have never put much stock in this 'stand aside' stuff: to me he's just trying to save his effort. In any case, even if Lily stopped a curse intended for Harry, Voldemort must then have used *another* curse to try to kill Harry, and this was the one that nearly destroyed him, and gave Harry the scar. Even if Harry did see the light from the one that killed Lily, one must suppose that the second one was more visible, as it hit him on the forehead, and this is the one he remembers as a lot of green light. All of which doesn't add up to much, but means that it is consistent that Harry didn't see Lily's death. It may seem overliteralistic to insist on strict visibility, rather than experience, of death, to be able to see Thestrals, but it makes sense to me just because it is the *visibility* of Thestrals that is in question. Perhaps if you hear somebody die in the next room, you can hear Thestrals but not see them? David From jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com Tue Jul 1 01:35:20 2003 From: jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com (jenn3311999) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 01:35:20 -0000 Subject: Percy as Boromir? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66273 While I've commented in past that I'd take Dudley over Percy, as Dudley at least has an excuse for his behavior ...I can see JKR reforming Percy in the next two books. Perhaps he will die saving Harry, and prove that he was not mis-sorted into Gryffindor? Farfetched? Anyone have any thoughts (or rasberries)? Jennifer From rachrobins at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 02:11:37 2003 From: rachrobins at hotmail.com (Rach) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 02:11:37 -0000 Subject: OOP: Grimmauld Place > Sirius' parentage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66274 greatlit2003 wrote: >>> I have a few quick questions: Was Sirius's mother born into the Black family? Her portrait kept referring to 12 Grimmauld Place as 'the house of my fathers'. If she was born a Black, why does Sirius have her last name and not his father's? >>> I have been wondering about that too. I had assumed that Sirius' father would have been a Black and his mother married into the family. What puzzles me is that Sirius tells Harry that Kreacher was more loyal to Sirius' mother than his father. Apart from when they are cleaning out the cabinet in the drawing room, there are very few references to his father at all. Its an icky thought, but could his Mother also have been a Black or at least a member of the Black dynasty? Perhaps she was also the grand daughter of Phineas Nigellus or a distant cousin. This would explain Kreacher's devotion. I know nothing about genealogy however, so I don't know how plausible this is. I do hope we get to learn more about the Black family even though Sirius is dead. There are two many questions buzzing around in my head to just leave it there! From wildean at shibaotu.fsworld.co.uk Tue Jul 1 02:04:34 2003 From: wildean at shibaotu.fsworld.co.uk (Wildean) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 03:04:34 +0100 Subject: OOTP Lessons & spoilers References: <1c2.bf1a85a.2c3241d9@aol.com> Message-ID: <03d301c33f75$214e29c0$8bd687d9@b5c9d5> No: HPFGUIDX 66275 If you haven't read or finished The Book, don't read this message! Hopefully, that's enough space. My theory is that Harry hasn't been told the real reason behind his Occlumency lessons. He's told that the lessons are to block Voldemort from being able to access his mind. I think the reason is the opposite. Dumbledore knows that Harry doesn't like Snape. That's why he was chosen. Snape kept telling Harry to clear his mind to stop himself dreaming about the corridor and the Department of Mysteries. This had the effect of Harry, in a knee-jerk reaction against what Snape was telling him, constantly thinking and obsessing about his dreams with the effect that he eventually decided to go there and try and defend what he found there himself. By focussing Harry's mind on the problem, Dumbledore knew that Harry would go to the Ministry sooner rather than later. This would force Voldemort's hand, and make him attack at a time when the Order was ready, rather than at some undetermined time that could take them by surprise. They are trying to act rather than react. When they realised that Harry had departed from Hogwarts, they were able to remove the guards and make his incursion easier. Wildean From artsylynda at aol.com Tue Jul 1 02:13:08 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 22:13:08 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP: Molly's shortcomings Message-ID: <147.149dce64.2c324834@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66276 In a message dated 6/30/2003 8:22:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > Molly was the only one to cook and organize the > cleaning. Penny, I wondered too what exactly she was doing for the > Order, as I didn't see her do more than fuss over her family and Harry > and criticize Sirius and Mundungus. > There was one place where it was mentioned that she had guard duty -- not on Harry but on that door Arthur was hurt while guarding, I think. Lynda * * * ". . .the cat's among the pixies now." Mrs. Figg, OoP [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Pjamelan at comcast.net Tue Jul 1 01:23:16 2003 From: Pjamelan at comcast.net (griffinmore) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 01:23:16 -0000 Subject: OoP: What Snape is really doing out there... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66277 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowena_grunnionffitch" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" > > > > snip> Darren said: > I don't doubt Snape did lots of evil things as a DE but he > changed sides and started working for the OotP before LV's first fall > and is now risking his life to put a final end to him. That should > count for quite a lot on the credit side. > > > But his petty refusal to continue the Occlumency lessons, > > Petty refusal?? Harry's offence was not petty it was an appalling > violation of Snape's privacy and he has every right to be furious > with the boy. Now me: I've been lurking for a while, and hopefully, this will be my first post!! I agree whole heartedly with Snapes redeeming characteristics, but no matter how upset he may have been with Harry for "violating his privacy", Snape had no right to deliberately disobey a direct order from Albus Bumbledore. Snape had to have known how important those Occlumency classes were. I think that they were just as stressful to Snape as they were to Harry. After all, Harry was having a bird's eye view into Snape's life as well. It seemed to me that Harry felt sorry for Snape and wanted to appologize, but Snape reacted rather childishly. Don't get me wrong; I like Snape, especially the whole mystery surrounding his character, but he acts just a juvenile a his Slytherin students sometimes. Just my opinion. Hope I did this right. Peace, from Griffinmore From yyssww2001 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 02:14:16 2003 From: yyssww2001 at yahoo.com (yyssww2001) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 02:14:16 -0000 Subject: OOP: Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66278 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatlit2003" wrote: > I have a few quick questions: Was Sirius's mother born into the Black > family? Her portrait kept referring to 12 Grimmauld Place as 'the > house of my fathers'. If she was born a Black, why does Sirius have > her last name and not his father's? > > Thanks > > greatlit2003 The same with Trelawney ... if Cybill Trelawney is great-great- granddaughter of true seer Cassandra Trelawney how come she still has the same last name with her great-great-grandmother ??? Or maybe Cassandra used her husbands name. "yyssww2001" From ugadawg02 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 02:21:27 2003 From: ugadawg02 at yahoo.com (ugadawg02) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 02:21:27 -0000 Subject: Snape & Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66279 (snip) Anyway, if Snape is an accomplished Occlumens, could it be possible that he can close his mind to both DD and LV and work both sides against each other? - Claire (snip) I don't think Snape is that much of a evil person or that willing to take a risk. He reminds me more of someone that will side with the stronger power because he feels it will bring him more power. Not like Wormtail going with the winning side to stay alive but for personal greed, I am also not sure he would risk going against Dumbledore, remember Dumbledore has said he has his reasons for knowing Snape is not working for LV. Perhaps one of those reasons is he can read parts of Snapes mind Snape thinks are well hidden and do it without Snape knowing it is being read. -RJ From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Jul 1 02:22:49 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 02:22:49 -0000 Subject: OOP: Adolescent Angst In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66280 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Flanagan" wrote: >Harry's tendencies to keep things to himself have been a running theme since the first book, and it is easy to see where they come from (his initials are VD).> and: >This gives OOP its downbeat tone that a lot of people don't like, but which is actually a very advanced theme for a "children's" book. > > I think that JKR has done a remarkable job of writing about an > extremely difficult age for a boy.> I was actually relieved for Harry when he started letting it all out. People may not like it, but it would be much less believable if Harry had continued to always be the quiet one when others lost their tempers or spoke out. He's not mute, after all. At this point in Harry's life, I think he's pretty damned tired of having manners, making respectful requests, and being ostracized and isolated from nearly everyone he knows. Don't we want to see characters who stand up for themselves? I know I do, but I may be biased there. I have a low tolerance for people who are doormats. Harry was never a doormat, but there have certainly been questions here at HPFGU about why Harry isn't asking more questions - about his parents, his scar, why he's pursued by Voldemort, etc. In reality, no one will give answers to people who ask no questions, and JKR shows us that this is how it goes in the WW as well. Had Harry not demanded that he know what was going on while he was tucked away at the Dursleys, I don't think he would have found out a thing. The fact that he was petulant and moody about everything only made me believe in him more. Better Harry starts dealing with his emotions now anyway, as he will need to have them under control in order to defeat Voldemort. That's my one and only rock solid prediction that I'll stand by. --jenny from ravenclaw, who keeps dreaming that she is a part of the WW ****************************************** From leon at adatofamily.com Tue Jul 1 02:25:53 2003 From: leon at adatofamily.com (Leon Adato) Date: 30 Jun 2003 22:25:53 -0400 Subject: (Top-10 things...) How about the one-liners? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1056989180.2356.357.camel@medion> No: HPFGUIDX 66281 On Mon, 2003-06-30 at 10:28, Cindy C. wrote: Remember the "Rock-Solid Predictions" thread right before OoP was released? How did we do, do you think? This was great and I was wondering about it just this morning. Has anyone started to compile a list of the quotes (most likley/least likely) as well? The one that jumped out at me, that screamed OMG, was when Herminone decided *not* to study. I was wondering if any of the other "least likely"'s actually got spoken. Thanks! Leon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leon at adatofamily.com Tue Jul 1 02:25:59 2003 From: leon at adatofamily.com (Leon Adato) Date: 30 Jun 2003 22:25:59 -0400 Subject: OOP: Giants, Elves, Centaurs (was "Giants") Message-ID: <1056999175.2356.543.camel@medion> No: HPFGUIDX 66282 Before I get SPEW-ed upon, let me state that the following logic is ONLY true if elves truly have a biological reason for being bound to a place, and it isn't just because of years of psychological slavery and/or some enchantment from long ago. But for the sake of argument, let's assume for a moment that elves are not enslaved socially, emotionally and psychologically, but have a good biological reason for being tied to a place and/or family: It suddenly struck me that the Grawp storyline ties into the SPEW storyline and raises a possible overall plot arc: That you can neither treat other people/speiceis/groups as if they are sub-human... ...nor as if they are exactly human. What I mean is that you cannot expect elves to live by human standards - being "free", wearing cloths, having "just a job", etc. It is (as many have argued) against their nature. But that doesn't give you the right to treat them without respect, dignity and the allowance to participate in society in a way which is consistant with their habits, beliefs and customs. Ditto giants. They are violent not so much because they are inherently vicious as because they have been forced to live so close together for so long. Hermione is trying to make elves something they are not. So is Hagrid. I think we will see more of the Centaur story line dovetail into this, especially with Firenze's circumstances. All of this ties into the larger DE bigotry issue. You are clearly a bigot if you want to refuse Muggleborn wizards entrance to Hogwarts. But you also are exhibiting bigoted behavior if you try to make an elf wear cloths. This is Dumbledore's message to Harry when taling about Sirius and Kreacher. It is also the statement he made at the MoM, when looking at the water fountain. It is also (I think) a thought taken from British history and the analysis of colonialism. OK, that's my two knuts for the day. -- Leon Adato =============== "It was unintelligible at any speed we played it." - US Gov't report investigating possible bad words in "Louie Louie" adatole at yahoo.com phone: 440-542-9659 fax: 305-832-2818 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From emmamarieb at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 02:28:10 2003 From: emmamarieb at hotmail.com (emmamariebee) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 02:28:10 -0000 Subject: Percy - The Good Boy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66283 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: Full circle to the beginning.... PERCY IS NOT EVIL, he's just misguided, and I have no doubt that Percy will see the error of his ways, and the Weasley family will understand that Percy was just trying to do his best to play the role of Percy, and that they will reconcile, and that Percy will become a valuable asset to the fight against Voldemort. In fact, the conflict between them is already resolved. Percy did what he thought was right and stood by the Ministry, and it has been proven that the Ministry was wrong; case closed. So the Percy/Weasley family war is over, now all they have to do is heal the wounds and sign a peace treaty. Don't get me wrong, the full return of Percy to the family will be a rough and rocky road, but the core reason for the battle has been resolved, so Percy has absolutely no reason to go over to the Dark Side. One last time... PERCY IS NOT EVIL. Me: This makes sense to me. One major theme JKR is pushing throughout the books, but in this one in particular is the complexity of human emotion & motivation and the deceptiveness of appearances. As Sirius . . . . . says, "The world is not divided into good guys and death eaters." If everyone who behaves badly (Percy, Fudge, Umbridge) actually turns out to be in league with LV, this would undermine what I believe is one of the key themes of the books. I think JKR is too good a writer to do that. Em, who misses him, who misses him From ugadawg02 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 02:30:52 2003 From: ugadawg02 at yahoo.com (ugadawg02) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 02:30:52 -0000 Subject: OOP: Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66284 (snip) > The same with Trelawney ... if Cybill Trelawney is great-great- > granddaughter of true seer Cassandra Trelawney how come she still has > the same last name with her great-great-grandmother ??? (snip) > "yyssww2001" Perhaps with Cybill Trelawney it is more a matter of tradition. Sort of honoring the great ture seer Cassandra, but with Black it is an interesting question, unless it was to honor the first female Black that perhaps supported Slytherian starting the family tradition Sirius and few others that were labeled outcasts broke? -RJ From pennylin at swbell.net Tue Jul 1 02:31:04 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (pennylin) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:31:04 -0500 Subject: OOtP: Molly's Shortcomings References: Message-ID: <00b001c33f78$d29fa890$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 66285 Hi all -- Well, just to clarify (I *knew* that dissing Molly was not going to be popular) ----- 1. I *am* a mother; and............ 2. I am a Stay-at-Home mother (a "housewife" in other words) [though I was a corporate lawyer in a former life and am still doing some free-lance writing]. And, I *still* don't like Molly. Not one bit, really. Megalynn said, among other things: <<<<<>>>>>> Well, she is *definitely* a stereotype and one I don't much care for. She fusses and frets too much; she in essence is living vicariously through her children and doesn't know when to let go. Part of being a parent is understanding that a child is an individual who must eventually spread his/her wings and fly away. Part of being a parent is understanding that your child may not want for himself precisely what it is that *you* want for him (::::FredandGeorge, cough::::). Part of being a parent is at some point realizing that a fully-grown child or one in late adolescence is no longer six. Yes, Jenny, I completely agree that she's trying to treat Harry and the others like they are 6. She has no perspective, Molly. I did sympathize with her on the boggart scene. But, being sympathetic to her fears doesn't make me like her any better, especially when I see little connection between her fears and the way she treats her family members. She's been a nagging harpie from the very beginning, long before there was a war on in the wizarding world. I positively loathe the depiction of her relationship with Arthur. In fact, I would wager that *this* is one of my deepest fears about the R/H ship. If it comes to pass, will it be because Hermione and Ron are destined to re-enact the Arthur/Molly marriage? If so, I will *HATE* that. Hermione deserves better. She's not Molly (and I see signs that she would resist the comparison), but Ron seems to bring out her Molly-like tendencies. I can't see Hermione taking on this role, and I fervently hope with all my being that this is not what JKR intends for her. Oh, but back to Molly and that boggart scene. Yes, David, I did appreciate that Molly has shades of grey, flaws and vulnerabilities, and I would not wish her to be a cardboard cutout. But, on some level, she *is* a cardboard cutout. She is the stereotypical June Cleaver-esque housewife who nags her husband and kids incessantly. Okay, so she has deep-seated fears and possible trauma in her background. I'm still missing the causal connection between the potentially tragic past events and the way she has treated her husband and children for the entire time we have known her. Marianne said: <<<< But, she's also got this over-protective streak about Harry. In GoF, even though she's known Hermione for years, and knows she's a friend of Harry's and Ron's, she's quick to believe the gossip that was written about her. And in OoP, she clearly does not think that Sirius is a good influence on Harry. With perhaps some legitimate reasons, but it doesn't take her long to fire up into full-blown maternal avenger. Her crack about Azkaban was low and I cheered Remus when he pointedly reminded her that she was not the only one at the table who cared about Harry. So, while I can still cut Molly some slack, she's a low-level irritant. And, I was disappointed that Molly's Order role didn't go anywhere.>>>>>>>>> *nods* Yes to all of the above. I'm glad we see the "bad" sides of these characters more in OoP, but I was pretty well not sold on Molly to begin with and OoP only emphasized her shortcomings for me. Penny > > I would like to defend Molly now. She > fuses and fretts and LOVES. She barks but she doesn't bite. She would > never disown one of her kids. She will always be there for them, and > if her encouraging and pushing her kids to be good at school is a bad > thing, then I think we have forgotten what a parent is. Even when > Percy said those Horribly outrageous things to Arther she still went > to London to try to patch things up. She took Harry in without a > second thought and loves him like her own child. She is a wonderful > asset not only to the kids but the order. Everyone needs a mother, > even the Order of the Pheonix, they need someone to care for everyone > and be there for everyone. > > > I asked before OOP what did Molly do with her time? If the Weasley's > were so strapped for cash why didn't she get a job, the kids are out > of the house most the year. However, now it is evident that that is > where she is in her element. She seems most talented at running a > household, and even though, especially today, not many people value > that, I think she is a valuable asset being the person she is. > > Just my two knuts > > ~Megalynn the only short-coming Molly has is that she loves her family too much. I dunno if that is a short-coming, or an asset. She is the typical mother. God Bless all of you out there who are moms... you gals really get the raw deal... Ignacio*sniff... I think I am going to call my mom...* Becerra Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! 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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Tue Jul 1 02:34:06 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 02:34:06 -0000 Subject: OOP: Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66286 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "yyssww2001" wrote: The same with Trelawney ... if Cybill Trelawney is great-great- granddaughter of true seer Cassandra Trelawney how come she still has the same last name with her great-great-grandmother ??? Or maybe Cassandra used her husbands name. Me (Bill): Sibyll could have been born a Trelawny, if the line of descent went: Cassandra => son => grandson => great-grandson => Sibyll and Sibyll never married or kept her maiden name. Bill From ugadawg02 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 02:36:12 2003 From: ugadawg02 at yahoo.com (ugadawg02) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 02:36:12 -0000 Subject: OOtP: Molly's Shortcomings In-Reply-To: <00b001c33f78$d29fa890$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66287 (snip) the only short-coming Molly has is that she loves her family too much. I dunno if that is a short-coming, or an asset. She is the typical mother. Me: I don't know if it is a short-coming either, she is clearly overprotective, at times which can be because of her massive love of her family, though being a typical mother, I do not know, she seems to be more so, she controls her family when she can and when she cannot might use her glares to get them to do what she feels best for them, but perhaps that too is a typical mother, interesting point. -RJ From riki1229 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 00:39:31 2003 From: riki1229 at hotmail.com (riki827) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 00:39:31 -0000 Subject: OOP: That "Oh my gosh" moment. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66288 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "megalynn44" wrote: > > > > There were several times I spoke out loud to the characters > trying to stop them doing something or getting them to do something or just exclaimed aloud in surprise. I call these my "Oh my gosh" moments. Here's one of mine: "Hello, Harry," he (Sirius) said grimly, "I see you've met my mother." p. 78 (US edition) From jillybean9395 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 01:06:26 2003 From: jillybean9395 at yahoo.com (jillybean9395) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 01:06:26 -0000 Subject: OOP: spoiler? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66289 I think someone asked about Bellatrix Lestrange's name. Excuse me for not having enough time to read the entire book, but...when I looked up her name this is what I found: Bella- means beautiful Trix- means a woman who performs a particular function. Lest- in case: in order to prevent something happening, especially something causing fear. Rang: Past tense of ring Forgive me for not getting this far in the book. What connection does Bellatrix Lestrang & Sirius have??? Is it possible that Sirius and Bellatrix Lestrang have more in common??? ~Jillybean9395 From jsmithqwert at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 01:20:46 2003 From: jsmithqwert at hotmail.com (jsmithqwert) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 01:20:46 -0000 Subject: OOP: Hermione's Career (was: OOP: Why OWLs aren't FLINTs!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66290 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermiawoods" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alon van Dam" > wrote: > > > I think you can get 2 OWLs in everysubject (one practical, > one > > > theorethical) which means Hermione might end up getting 20 OWLs I > > > suppose. > > > One little thing -- I seem to remember that there was *only* a > written exam for History of Magic, and I wonder if there was a > written exam for CoMC? I don't remember one being mentioned. Anyway, > I wonder what the top number of possible OWLs is in Hogwarts history? > I'm sure our lovely Ms. Granger is up for about as many as anyone, > but I don't think 20 is possible. My impression from OoP and the (exhausting, but wonderful) posts here is that of the 6 "core" (five year) OWL subjects (i.e. astronomy, herbology, potions, charms, transfiguration, and history of magic), all but History of Magic has both a theoretical and a practical exam. Therefore, it is possible to "earn" 11 OWLs in "core" subjects. In the "elective" courses (arithmancy, care of magical creatures, divination, ancient runes, muggle studies, and any others if there are more) there seems to be only one exam given. So the maxium possible, with a full course load like Hermeione's, is 14 (the 11 "core" OWLs plus 3 "elective" OWLs" (assuming that there are not covert "electives" that have never been mentioned). According to this logic, the maxium for Ron and Harry would be 13, but I am pretty sure that they both failed divination and, probably, history of magic. From Cfitz812 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 02:17:27 2003 From: Cfitz812 at aol.com (Claire) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 02:17:27 -0000 Subject: OOP: That "Oh my gosh" moment. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66291 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: > > > My addition: > > > > When, at the end of Chapter 31, when Umbridge and Co. went after > > Hagrid, and McGonagall came out to try to put a stop to it. "No, > > Minerva, they'll waste you to! Come back! Oh, no!" > > > I don't know what nubmer is this supposed to be, but anyhow my OH MY > GOSH moment was: > > US Edition Chpater 32: Out of the Fire P. 747 - > "NO!" shouted Hermione in a cracked voice from behind Millicent > Bulstrode. "No - Harry - Harry, we'll have to tell her!" > > I was like NOOOO HERMIONE! I had a feeling she was going to crack > under all the pressure of school and because of Harry's constant > yelling. I just couldn't believe she'd rat out on him, but thank God > JKR eased my worries. > > Greicy Mine: Goodness, so many OH MY GOSH moments and everyone's taken them all. Mine was McGonagall talking out of the side of her mouth to Peeves, "It unscrews the other way." She DOES have a sense of humor- -I KNEW IT! I about laughed myself sick. Claire From miss_dumblydore at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 02:40:36 2003 From: miss_dumblydore at yahoo.com (Heather Gauen) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:40:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy as Boromir? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030701024036.78208.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66292 --- jenn3311999 wrote: > While I've commented in past that I'd take Dudley > over Percy, as > Dudley at least has an excuse for his behavior ...I > can see JKR > reforming Percy in the next two books. Perhaps he > will die saving > Harry, and prove that he was not mis-sorted into > Gryffindor? Actually, I thought this myself a time or two during OoP. Percy *is* very Boromirish- completely hellbent on power and defeating the enemy, but blind to the right way about doing so. Deep down he *wants* to do the right thing, but is so convinced that his way is right that he alienates and abuses those who disagree. Yep, this does sound a bit familiar. I've feared since GoF that Percy's coming to an untimely death, but I would love for it to be while pledging allegiance to Dumbledore. I've thought all along that he was a perfect Slytherin (aside from his family, of course) so it would be bittersweet for him to prove in his dying moments why he was a Gryffindor. Or he could do all that *without* the dying part, but I just get so gleeful when I'm predicting deaths :) Heather, who has to add that I *love* Darrin's band names, "I love the 80's" moments, babe/skank lists, and, well, generally all of his opinions, which I tend to agree with 99% of the time. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From sethido at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 02:23:37 2003 From: sethido at yahoo.com (sethido) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 02:23:37 -0000 Subject: OOP: 1 down 4 to go (End of an Era) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66293 spoilers My theory is that Rowlings will 'kill' off the era that many knows as the MWPP (yes I said 5, I included Snape as he is heavily intertwined with this) Why? That I still do not understand, perhaps to make way for the new generation, the less pure, the mingle blooded, less prejudice,... The way it will go...(The men that got the attention of many adult fans) 1) James Potter. Well he is already gone, but we still get glimpes into his life and how his actions affected the outcome and thoughts of others. We know that he was Headboy, a good Quidditch player, stood up against Voldemort 3 times and was a bit of a punk in his fifth year. (One down) 2)Sirius Black. Gone, and for what reason? My heart went out to this man when I first met him in POA. He was accused of a crime he didnt commit, spent the best years of his life in prison then forced into exile, showed devotion to his best friend's son (my goodness he ate rats for heaven's sake) Snuffed out (pun) without clearing his name, without regaining any normalcy in life and again for what reason. 3)Remus Lupin. This is the character I fell in love with. The man with a heart of gold and an uncontrollable beast. (To borrow from the modern genre,,,he is Katherine's Vincent, Buffy's Angel) The creature we love, yet outcast in society. He lost his best friend after reuniting with him, (each spoke each word as if it pained him), lives in poverty, rejected by the wizarding world and doomed. (Pettigrew's Silver Hand) 4)Peter Pettigrew. I cannot say I think much of this character. He betrayed James, got Sirius thrown in prison, help resurect Voldemort and yet he must be included in this era. His actions are selfish and horrible, yet we do not know exactly why he betrayed his friends so easily. What was the breaking point? (though I still hate him...especially since I believe he will kill Remus) 5)Severus Snape. The antognist of the MWPP, or at least on James and Sirius' part. But was he truly the offender or the offended? His hatred for them has been transferred to Harry, yet he owes James his life. The irony of it, I believe Snape will betray Dumbledore but in the end redeem himself by sacrificing himself for Harry. (Again this is another character I truly fell in love with,,, sigh all them will be destroyed I do believe) Thus ending the end of the era. Just my two knuts Andrian From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 02:41:52 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 02:41:52 -0000 Subject: OOP - It's Butterbeer time! In-Reply-To: <013001c33f5f$73a14e20$8bd687d9@b5c9d5> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66294 <<<"Wildean" wrote: > "digger" wrote: ButterBEER must have beer as an ingredient!< Why must it? Spotted dick (as far as I know) contains no dick, yorkshire pudding contains nothing that is specifically part of "Yorkshire" and hedhehog flavoured crisps didn't REALLY contain hedgehog.>>> The Sergeant Majorette says: No, but it does have spots -- raisins, that is. It's a huge tourist attraction to Americans on their first visit to Britain. It is a completely disgusting combination of beef suet, sugar and raisins which really exists. Yorkshire pudding is another thing that really exists, which brings me to my canon obsession: exactly what are the various foodstuffs mentioned in the books, which are JKR inventions, and which are things so British they might as well have been invented? For example, why was 'lemon drop' substituted for 'sherbet lemon' (I get BBC America, so I'd seen Hagrid, I mean Robbie Coltrane, eat them in "Cracker") but 'spotted dick' allowed to pass without clarification? It took me a while to figure out that 'chipolatas' are sausages; I still can't figure out what a 'knickerbocker glory' is (since it appears in the muggle world, I'm guessing it's real). And what about the treats Florian Fortescu serves? Is a strawberry-and- peanut butter ice cream supposed to be weirder than a treacle tart? Is a 'pumpkin pasty' just a miniature pumpkin pie? In America, especially in the northeast, we'll do anything with pumpkins (pies, cakes, candies, soups, casseroles) but the raw juice? Dandelion flower wine, yes; dandelion greens for salad, yes; dandelion juice? If it's from the greens, it might not be safe raw --too much oxalic acid-- or is it more like pot liquor (the cooking liquid left over after boiling greens)? English cuisine is fairly scary under the most normal of circumstances (in re maggoty haggis: most people on this planet would rather eat the maggots than the haggis): add the complication of magic and you have enough material for a Book VIII that I'd line up to buy. --JDR (thinking she'll try brewing up some butterbeer) From adellalaine at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 02:35:03 2003 From: adellalaine at yahoo.com (adellalaine) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 02:35:03 -0000 Subject: House pride post-Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66295 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David" wrote: > I wrote: > > > IMO, the adult > > characters who show strong house allegiance are those who have > not > > experienced much of life away from the school. > > >snip< > > Sirius: spent most of his time in Azkaban > > >snip< > > Otherwise, there seems to be remarkably little reference to house > > allegiance in the adult world. Only the Malfoys and Weasleys give > > any evidence, and what there is comes from the children. > > > Kirstini asked: > > > Does Sirius ever show strong house allegiance? This would really > > help my argument... > > What was in my mind is the disparagng way he refers to Snape's gang > of Slytherins - that is he still categorises them by house. > Admittedly that is looking back at schooldays, when you might slip > back into school modes of thought anyway. > > Apart from that, I can't think of anything. Interestingly, when he > describes how he was a disappointment to his family, he doesn't say > anything like "My mother nearly died of shame when I was sorted into > Gryffindor" or "My father disapproved of my having Gryffindor > friends despite being in Slytherin". > > David Of course, you also have to wonder whether or not Sirius WAS in Gryffindor. I'm sure this had been voiced before, but I've always wondered if each of the Marauders came from a different house. Laine From rachrobins at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 02:46:50 2003 From: rachrobins at hotmail.com (Rach) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 02:46:50 -0000 Subject: Percy as Boromir? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66296 Jennifer wrote: >>> While I've commented in past that I'd take Dudley over Percy, as Dudley at least has an excuse for his behavior ...I can see JKR reforming Percy in the next two books. Perhaps he will die saving Harry, and prove that he was not mis-sorted into Gryffindor? >>> Was is Lupin or Sirius who said "You can't divide the world into good people and death eaters" (Sorry haven't managed to wrestle my copy back off my housemate). I think Percy's betrayal highlights this. He is not a bad person, he is just currently choosing money and power above other more important things. JKR has always given the impression that deep down he must be a good person, just misguided. Although I think that she could be making a bleak 'real world' point in illustrating how some people are purely driven by power and money, and never choose the right path. Personally though I think he will redeem himself, but not before he is hit by loss and suffering. A number of people have suggested that he might die fighting, but I see him being more profoundly affected by loosing family members. He will be the one to live on to understand his mistakes and regret that he took a loving family for granted. From emmamarieb at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 02:50:50 2003 From: emmamarieb at hotmail.com (emmamariebee) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 02:50:50 -0000 Subject: OOtP: Molly's--and Other Adults'--Shortcomings In-Reply-To: <00b001c33f78$d29fa890$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66297 Well, just to clarify (I *knew* that dissing Molly was not going to be popular) ----- 1. I *am* a mother; and............ 2. I am a Stay-at-Home mother (a "housewife" in other words) [though I was a corporate lawyer in a former life and am still doing some free-lance writing]. And, I *still* don't like Molly. Not one bit, really. Well, she is *definitely* a stereotype and one I don't much care for. She fusses and frets too much; she in essence is living vicariously through her children and doesn't know when to let go. Part of being a parent is understanding that a child is an individual who must eventually spread his/her wings and fly away. Part of being a parent is understanding that your child may not want for himself precisely what it is that *you* want for him (::::FredandGeorge, cough::::). Part of being a parent is at some point realizing that a fully-grown child or one in late adolescence is no longer six. Yes, Jenny, I completely agree that she's trying to treat Harry and the others like they are 6. She has no perspective, Molly. Me: When Molly got so incredibly carried away over Ron's prefect-ness, I waxed a little suspicious of her: Do external honors mean so much to her that she could (literally) forget two of her kids in her excitement over them? (Rough quotes: Molly: "Oh, Ron, that's everyone in the family!" George: "What are we, the next door neighbors?") I agree Molly's got some stuff to work out or work on--but isn't that what makes this writing interesting? It's not just Harry, Ron, and Hermione who have some developing to do. Who says personal development stops after adolescence? Molly has to learn to love her children as they are and to allow them to grow up. Lupin has to learn to balance his desperate need to be liked with a willingness to speak out against even his friends when they're behaving badly (I think he's made some strides in this direction in this book). Snape has to learn to see people (especially Harry, but also Lupin) for who they are and not who his pain-blinded self makes them out to be. Sirius . . . ah . . . well . . . It hurts to talk about what Sirius might have needed to learn. So I'll just take a miss on that one. Em, who is looking forward to all this development and only wishes that . . . but knows the wish is futile even as she makes it. From ugadawg02 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 02:51:58 2003 From: ugadawg02 at yahoo.com (ugadawg02) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 02:51:58 -0000 Subject: Percy as Boromir? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66298 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rach" wrote: >>> Personally though I think he will redeem himself, but not before he is hit by loss and suffering. A number of people have suggested that he might die fighting, but I see him being more profoundly affected by loosing family members. He will be the one to live on to understand his mistakes and regret that he took a loving family for granted. But what type of loss would be that profund? The death of a family member or the death of his current idol, Fudge? -RJ From suzloua at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 02:52:03 2003 From: suzloua at hotmail.com (Susan Atherton) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 03:52:03 +0100 Subject: OOP: Re: Hermione's Patronus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66299 Brooke informed us: Their are different types of otters, so it is impossible to know which kind JKR had in mind for Hermione's patronus. But I found some interesting things on animal plantet's website... - the Brazilian giant otter is at the top of the food chain in it's environment (the rainforest) - the giant otter sometimes preys on snakes and is capable of killing an anaconda (If Hermione's patronus ever turns out to be an amimagus form for her, this could come in handy while fighting Slytherins??) - otters mate for life - otters have been hunted for their thick brown coats that repel water I say: I don't know Brooke, personally I saw it as one thing only - we know from interviews (check the Lexicon) that Hermione is Teen!JKR, and also that if JKR was an Animagus, she'd be an otter because it's her favourite animal. I can only assume that if JKR could conjure a Patronus, she thinks she'd conjure an otter, so Hermione, JKR's own Mary Sue, can do just that. Personally I was more intrigued by Cho's swan - I would've thought with all the name discussions, Cho would've had a butterfly. Susan ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "Help me Jebus!" --Homer Simpson "Shame on you! Ugly baby judges you!" --Ross Geller "Oh yeah, and did I mention I've got a baby?" --Stuart Alan Jones "You know, I telephoned my grandparents the other day, and my grandfather said to me, 'We saw your movie.' 'Which one?' I said, and he shouted, 'Betty, what was the name of that movie I didn't like?'" --Brad Pitt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rachrobins at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 02:57:09 2003 From: rachrobins at hotmail.com (Rach) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 02:57:09 -0000 Subject: OOP: That "Oh my gosh" moment. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66300 "megalynn44" wrote: >>>There were several times I spoke out loud to the characters trying to stop them doing something or getting them to do something or just exclaimed aloud in surprise. I call these my "Oh my gosh" moments.>> riki827" wrote: >>> Here's one of mine: "Hello, Harry," he (Sirius) said grimly, "I see you've met my mother." p. 78 (US edition)>>> This was the first tension break in the book for me. It felt like it had been building and building since page 1 and was at bursting point. When I read that quote I actually laughed, then gasped. It wasn't exactly funny, just very surreal. My biggest 'Oh my gosh' moment was definatley Harry's first detention with Umbridge and that quill. It sent shiver down my spine. She is such a well drawn character, right down to the fluffy cardigan and girlish voice. I have known teachers just like her, just as brutal and incompetent (although obviously not at violent!). Rach From ugadawg02 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 03:01:53 2003 From: ugadawg02 at yahoo.com (ugadawg02) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 03:01:53 -0000 Subject: OOP: Re: Hermione's Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66301 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Atherton" wrote: > Brooke informed us: - otters mate for life Susan: > I don't know Brooke, personally I saw it as one thing only - we know from interviews (check the Lexicon) that Hermione is Teen! Perhaps though it is not mating for life but being loyal for life, how many times has she broken the rules to follow Harry and Ron on an adventure and turns out to be of help to them. Perhaps it is not mating for life then, but a mark of the depth of her loyalty? From srsiriusblack at aol.com Tue Jul 1 03:07:07 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 23:07:07 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy is an idiot Message-ID: <2f.3be0cd6f.2c3254db@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66303 After rereading the whole series and watching in my head the events of Percy's development, I still stand by my post a few months ago that Percy is Evil and will likely turn to the dark side...Why? Percy likes having power, and in OoP, he proves that family loyalty and trust are absolute rubbish to him. I agree with many that Molly is overprotective of her family and Harry, but Arthur has never shown anything but love, kindness, compassion, and a sense of fun in his family. From all that I have read, he seems an ideal father. Certainly having such a large family makes everyone want to stand out in his or her own way, but Percy just took things too far in OoP.He disregarded EVERYTHING his family told him and cut himself off from all of them except Ron. I found his letter to Ron to be pompous, rude, and horrible. This Percy is very unlike our former Percys. Yes. Percy has always had a sense of arrogance, but he has never shown distrust of his family, Harry, or Dumbledore. To turn against all of them is insanity.... and that is what I think is going on... Be it from a charm, or Percy's own need to stand out, he is chin high in poop here. Personally, I think Percy will become a servant of Lord Moldie, I mean, Lord Voldemort and we will see his true colours.... There is almost always a 'bad seed'/'black sheep' in a family that large... It is Percy, despite what Molly may think of the Wesley Twins. Really not liking Percy, One dead Snuffles. "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom ========Original Message======== Subj: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy as Boromir? Date: 6/30/2003 22:52:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: ugadawg02 at yahoo.com Reply-to: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent from the Internet (Details) --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rach" wrote: >>> Personally though I think he will redeem himself, but not before he is hit by loss and suffering. A number of people have suggested that he might die fighting, but I see him being more profoundly affected by loosing family members. He will be the one to live on to understand his mistakes and regret that he took a loving family for granted. But what type of loss would be that profund? The death of a family member or the death of his current idol, Fudge? -RJ ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pjuel13 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 03:12:16 2003 From: pjuel13 at aol.com (pjuel13 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 23:12:16 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP: What Snape is really doing out there... Message-ID: <14d.21015441.2c325610@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66304 Joan says: >First I got to say I felt that some of the anti-Snape people here are >a little bit overexaggerating some of Snape's so-called "nastiness" >in Ch.24 , it's like no matter what he do or say, they comes off >super evil/nasty to you guys. Not agreeing with your "vision" of Snape does not equate to being "anti-Snape." I hate to shattrer you illusions in that way but I'm not part of your simplistic little black and white world. >How on earth was he "insulting" Black during that Christmas scene!? >You call that "insult"?! Well, there was a noteable lack of exclamation points so I can see where you might be confused but when last I checked implying that someone was useless and a coward; that they were so much of a coward infact that they actually manufactured a senario where they would be sighted by Voldemort's people so they would have an excuse to never leave the house, would be construed by most people as insulting. Even without explicitly reading "Black, I think you're a useless coward!!!" And what self-resepcting Slytherin would need to resort to that anyway. Reckless bluster of that sort is more the Griffindor style. But more on that in a moment. > I couldn't believe we're reading the same book. I confess to the same bafflement. >Snape was taunting or teasing, yes, but insults?? He was insulting in exactly the way a good Slytherin ought to be, subtly and viscously. With the nimblness of a salamander and the accuracy of a pit viper. It was cunning and calculated and impressive to behold and both Phineas and Salazar would have been proud of him. I mean that in the very best way. Draco is really piddling-poor excuse for a Slytherin with all his bluster and bigotry, he couldn't aspire to one tenth of Snape's smooth snark, even on his best day. Why not celebrate Snape's delightfully nasty abilities with phrase and word? He's darned good at what he does and minimising that diminishes him. >And may I remind you guys that it was Black who was being unpleasant first. I'm not mean to assume any sort of tone from that phrase "may I remind you" am I? It's purely a professional phrasing is it not? And please do tell me how reminding Snape that he has every right to be there consitutes unpleasantness on Sirius' part? >And since when did "sit down, Potter" became a nasty rude giving- >order talk!?? What do you anti-Snape people want him to say >then? "Would you please take a seat my dear/sweetheart/honey?" Snape >was being professional, "sit down, Potter" is nothing but being >professional.? I wouldn't presume to order someone to do anything in another person's house before they'd had a chance to speak or act. I've always been taught that was rude. And Sirius certainly did seem to think it was an order, though of course we can't take his perspecitve or feelings on -anything-. >what's exactly so wrong with "Sit down, Potter" may I ask you!? >I can easily see Prof. McGonagal said the same thing. We've seen many examples of how McGonigall talks to Harry in the books just as we've seen many examples of how Snape speaks to him. They vary greatly. McGonigall and Snape could say exactly the same thing to Harry and yet the way in which they they would say it would vary dramaticly. >Ordering Harry around? How so? When? where? He ordered him to sit didn't he? >And didn't Snape explained everything to Harry in a professional >manner the whole time?! The whole time? Is deepening your sneer at a student's question professional? Is implying that not only you but the headmaster of the school finds teaching that student a "less enjoyable task" professional? Is stating baldly that a student's arrogance means they are immune from the effects of educator bullying or cruel comments professional? If you think so, fine, your perogative but I disagree. >What "insults after insults"?!??! Again, the absence of exclamation points may be the sticking point in making the insults clear but I will say once more that many people would consider needling a person about supposed their uselessness and cowardice are insulting. As is implying to a student that he is both stupid and very unpleasant to teach. >If what Snape said at that scene are consider "insults", then what >about Black then? Doesn't that made him also insulting Snape the >whole time then? The whole time? The personal attacks started with Snape. (unless you want to extrapolate the "it's my house comment" made by Black into an attack on Snape's weath or lack of it). Uninvolved, useless, cowardly. Sirius shouldn't have given in to his anger and replied in kind but Snape wasn't innocent either. > Don't forget he was being extremely childlish to >called Snape "Snivellus" and "Lucius's Lapdog". >Did you remember that at all?? "I assure you my memory is as good as it ever was." >Black does nothing!??!? He was the one who started it. Please give me an explicit citation as to how Sirius "started it." Did he start it by insisting that he be there while Snape spoke to Harry and reminding him that as the homeowner and the goodfather he had every right to be there? Did he start it by reminding Snape that he expected certain behaviour in his house and that Snape's usual behaviour towards Harry wouldn't be tollerated? Indeed, how dare he do such a thing. That SOB, not letting Snape be Snape. >He was also the one raising his voice first. He was also the one being aggressive >the whole time. He was the one who do childlish name calling. As opposed to Snape being "waspish", laying "delicate stress" on insulting words and the oft repeated sneering. Sirius Black shows his feelings loudly and obviously. It's almost certain that he's just the person Snape is thinking of when he speaks to Harry of "Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories, and allow themselves to be provoked this easily - weak people in other words." (US ed. pg 536) He knows exactly how Sirius will react and he's goading him on. He's playing him like a pro, like a true Slytherin ought to, using his skill and subtly to turn Black's inability to control his temper against him. Note how once each man had squared off againt each other Black was livid but Snape was calculating. >He was the one push his chair roughly and pull out his wand first He pushes his chair aside roughly and strides around the table pulling out his wand as he goes; Snape whips out his own. Both men seem more than willing to draw down on each other and Snape was already ready "Snape, who, Harry noticed, had balled his fist in the pocket of his cloak over what Harry was sure was the handle of his wand," (pg 520) Snape had insulted Harry and Harry's father and indicated that one couldn't give Harry a hard time since his imagined arrogance meant that he was immune to any cruelty or harshness. He didn't explicitly say that he intended to give Harry a hard time, in light of this belief, despire Black's warning not to, but he knew Black would take it that way. >he was the one pushing Harry. Yes pushing him from out between a potentially deadly confontation between two very dangerous wizards. That was sheer nerve on Harry's part to stay there and good on him. >On the other hand, Snape remain his coolness and being calm the whole >time, including after being called "Snivelllus" by Black Is calling a person a coward, or excuse me "man who has been hiding in his mother's house for six months" coolness and calm? Is it the act of a man who wants to diffuse a tense situation? Is suggesting that going to the train station as Padfoot to see his Godson off, where he was unfortunately seen, was infact an effort to concoct a "cast-iron excuse not to leave (his) hidey-hole" is that a benign comment? I don't think so, not any more than "Snivellus" or "Lucius' Lapdog" is. Both men ought to have know better but Snape was not an innocent actor. Far from it, he was doing a very skilled job of saying exactly the things that would make the situation worse. >who have a feeling that even if Snape did end up being nice to >Harry, these anti-Snape people could still find bunch of bad things >to say about it like how he's not nice enough or he didn't really >meant it or something Once again, please leave me out of your "these anti-Snape people" generalisations. I prefer a little more nuance in my characters than which fosters terms like anti-Snape, anti-Sirius and the like. -Stripedog [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ugadawg02 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 03:23:10 2003 From: ugadawg02 at yahoo.com (ugadawg02) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 03:23:10 -0000 Subject: OOP: Giants, Elves, Centaurs (was "Giants") In-Reply-To: <1056999175.2356.543.camel@medion> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66305 >>>Hermione is trying to make elves something they are not. So is Hagrid. What is the elves true nature then and can we assume service is the true nature since it is their current nature? - RJ From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Tue Jul 1 03:25:30 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 23:25:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP : Snape's worst memory (as far as we know) Message-ID: <22.3b8a0896.2c32592a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66306 In a message dated 6/30/03 1:07:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buffyeton at yahoo.com writes: > It's always struck me as odd that people are constantly reminding > Harry to call Snape Professor. Whenever he is talking to someone and > he says Snape, they always say "Professor". Always. But I don't > think they do that with other Professors. He says Dumbledore and I > don't believe adults correct him and say Professor. > > Tamara I always attributed that to the fact that Harry *likes* Dumbledore. I know in my school we used to call people by their last names if we were friends. As we got older though, it became reserved for people we don't like. Harry calls Severus just plain ol' Snape because he doesn't like him. Very strange though... ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ Captain of U.S.S. SILK SHIRTS --Who would love to have an I Love the 80s moment, but was only 5 when the decade ended...didn't get to enjoy it at all! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Tue Jul 1 03:29:40 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 20:29:40 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Giants Message-ID: <410-2200372132940932@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 66307 Calimora wrote: "This entire episode with the giants reminded me forcably of US treatment of Native Americans. Herded on to undesirable lands far from their traditional hunting places and teritories they had to adapt from a free-ranging nomadic life to sedintory existance without all the sociatal and scientific steps that would normaly accompany such a change. Thus they suffered and died in job lots as outside forces declined to understand that tribes are separate nations (for better or worse) with their own histories and customs. Which is basicaly what the Wizarding world is doing. As for 'naturaly' being 'beasts' instead of 'beings'... Mountain men and other hermit types go more than alittle bit wild over time. Humans when left on their own begin to go insane. Thats how come solitary confinment is such a punishment. Giants noticably aren't human (neither are house elves), so who can say that Giants, when spread out aren't purfectly sane and well behaved, but in large groups they start to go a bit crazy. Besides, it's hard to call something a beast when they make tools, have a semi-perminant camp (with a throne? cant remember, Mom stole my book), and their own language." Now me (Wendy): Great points, Calimora! I like your Native American analogy to some degree, but actually I think that *neither* of our examples (Native Americans or a pride of lions) are really spot on. I certainly am not comfortable likening the Giants to the Native American population (I'm not sure this is what you were trying to say, it's just something that occurred to me when considering your analogy). The Native Americans who were forced off their lands were modern humans of the same species as their "conquerors" - intrinsically identical in all respects (intelligence, basic physiology, etc.). The differences between the two groups were purely cultural and technological, and by this I don't mean that one group was inferior to the other. Just that the groups had a different societal structure and had developed different technology to support their lifestyle. The same can't be said, IMO, of the differences between wizards and giants. This *is* just my opinion, as we don't have a whole lot of canon to go on here, and much of what we do have is biased WW propaganda (Daily Prophet article, for example). But I'm not sure that Potterverse giants can reasonably compared with humans who have isolated themselves from society. Your point about tool use and language is well taken, but Hagrid's description of the giants he encountered doesn't sound as though they are on a par with humans in terms of intelligence (let alone cultural and technological sophistication). I think they would be better compared with highly advance apes - really, really smart chimpanzees, for example. Chimps do all the things you mention to some degree. Or, better yet, proto-humans (i.e. cave people, as someone else suggested earlier). So I think the giants are closer to "beings" than I'd originally described in my post, and closer to "beasts" than you describe in yours. Of course, FBAWTFT makes it clear that the Wizarding World itself has difficulties making a distinction between "beings" and "beasts," so how can we be expected to do any better? Having said all this, I think that if I had to pick one or the other category, at this point (based on your comments about language and such), I would change my original opinion and go with "beings." Come to think of it, if I had to classify chimps as one or the other, I'd probably go with "beings" for them, too. :-) Wendy (Who really loves animals, so doesn't actually consider calling something a "beast" offfensive - I often prefer "beasts" to "beings." ) From renimar at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 03:33:21 2003 From: renimar at yahoo.com (M. J. Pascual) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 03:33:21 -0000 Subject: OOP: Umbridge's observation of O.W.L.'s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66308 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "innovan" wrote: [Spoiler Space] > There's a good chance she'll come back as DADA next year precisely > because of the O.W.L. results of Harry's class having used her > program. > > Umbridge teaching N.E.W.T. level DADA. That's pure Evil. I don't see this happening, now that Dumbledore's returned. He's assumed the mantle of Headmaster by _telling_ the Minister. He told the Minister to call off the Aurors hunting Hagrid, and told the minster to remove Umbridge -- and with every expectation that Fudge would do what he had asked. To send Umbridge back after being dead wrong about Voldemort, would be asking for more trouble from Dumbledore than he already has. --Mark From ugadawg02 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 03:33:46 2003 From: ugadawg02 at yahoo.com (ugadawg02) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 03:33:46 -0000 Subject: OOP : Snape's worst memory (as far as we know) In-Reply-To: <22.3b8a0896.2c32592a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66309 >I always attributed that to the fact that Harry *likes* Dumbledore. >I knowin my school we used to call people by their last names if we >were friends. As we got older though, it became reserved for people >we don't like. Harry calls Severus just plain ol' Snape because he >doesn't like him. Very strangethough... >~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ There is that, but Harry is not the only one to call Dumbledore simply Dumbledore is he? But he is the only one to call Snape, Snape. Other adults may call him Severus, but I know of few that do not call him Professor Snape, however almost all at one time have called Dumbledore simply Dumbledore or at least refered to him that way in front of Harry. -RJ From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 03:34:36 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 03:34:36 -0000 Subject: Babes and Skanks - PoA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66310 I, Darrin Burnett, give you the Babes and Skanks of Prisoner of Azkaban, where we started getting Babalicious and Skankayukky! Babes: Madame Rosmerta - Ultimate Babe Cho Chang - Whoa! What's That Funny Feeling In My "Tummy"? Babe Hermione Granger - Time-Travelin' Babe Lily Potter - Defending Her Boy Babe Katie, Angelina and Alicia - We Are the Champions Babes Madame Pomphrey - Cranky Nurse Babe Sybil Trelawney - Two Right Predictions out of Two Million Ain't Bad Babe. Skanks: Aunt Marge - Blown Up! Skank Aunt Petunia - Always on the Skank List Skank Prof. Grubby-Plank - Stereotype Skank Snape in a Gran Longbottom's Dress - Best Look For Severus Yet Skank Prof. McGonagall - Give Me Back My Firebolt! Skank Pansy Parkinson - Simpering Skank Lavender and Parvati - Dissing Hagrid Skanks Darrin -- I love the 80s Moment: "Vanna White. Man, was she hot!" From golden_faile at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 03:41:00 2003 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden_faile) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 03:41:00 -0000 Subject: OOP: That "Oh my gosh" moment. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66311 > > Neville has definitely come into his own in this book. I had > forgotten about those two scenes. They were so spare in the details > but when you do stop to consider them, they take your breathe away. I > think JKR is so wonderful in this way. She brought Neville along in > such a slow, deliberate way that you never expected he had such depth > and resources. I think he's going to be one of the most important > characters in the final two books. Thanks John. Hear!Hear!! Most of my OMG Moments came from Neville. 1) Him rushing at Malfoy trying to do bodily harm. 2)Him sticking up for Harry to Seamus. 3)Him doing well in the D.A. classes. 4)Him going along with Harry to save Sirius. The other two were Snape's worst memory and when Malfoy finally gets what he deserves. I was cheering Harry and (Fred? George?) on! From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 03:41:10 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 03:41:10 -0000 Subject: OOP : Favourite book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66312 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "imo_star" wrote: > It was a long book but I have to say in > places it seemed to be padded out, Draco, Hagrid what did they really > add to the story? I just did not find the Grawp story line > convincing, I felt Hagrid was an add on. Anyway that was my thoughts > on the books, my favourite by the way is azkaban! > > imo Annemehr: I'm just assuming that the scenes in OoP about Draco and Hagrid and Grawp were not actually story _lines_ but actually just fragments, to be continued later. I just treat any one HP book like _The_Two_Towers_ -- nobody complains about Gollum being pointless there! That said, I don't like the Grawp thread much either, yet. I'm just willing to wait for the payoff; and really, it's hard to imagine how else JKR could bring in a giant on the good side. Far from being padded out, I thought there was an amazing lot in there, and I'm still having a lot of trouble internalizing it all in a second reading -- each new revelation drives the last out of memory so that I can't remember who did what. Incidentally, what didn't you like about the Draco thread? Certainly, we haven't reached the end of it yet, but I thought it was good in showing him rushing down his chosen path, on the "Any Enemy of Dumbledore's is a Friend of Mine" branch. He was actually beginning to *do* something. Annemehr From zanelupin at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 03:45:32 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (zanelupin) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 03:45:32 -0000 Subject: OOP: Dementors (was : Re: OOP: Petunia and Azkaban) In-Reply-To: <00b001c33f51$bf0284a0$57f3a986@caro> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66313 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolin M?nkemeyer wrote: > Hi all! > > Thet dementors were allready guarding Azkaban in the first war for Petunia > knows they do and she heared James tell this Lilly so it could only be > possibly while the first war. > > Yous Finchen > But we don't actually know that it is James and Lily Petunia is referring to when she says "that awful boy" and "her." She never says their names, Harry only assumes she is speaking of his parents. I am inclined to believe that she was speaking of Lily and James when she said this, but something about the way she said it makes me wonder whether or not it was just something she made up so she didn't have to give any more explanations as to how she knew anything about the Dementors of Azkaban. This is the reason I originally got into this thread. I wondered if Petunia was trying to cover up that she'd been in contact with the WW since the death of her sister (a question that many have been asking). In connection to this, I began to wonder why and when the Dementors became the guards at Azkaban. Because, as I posted earlier in this thread, if the Dementors guarded the prison during the first war, then why would they just sit idly by helping the MoM when big bad Voldemort could give them their heart's desire? Someone else wrote that the Dementors were the guardians, and abandoned the prison and joined Voldemort during the first war. When he was gone, the MoM welcomed them back to their former post because it was the safest way to keep the captured DE's in check. Since no one expected Lord Thingy to return, there was no reason to worry about the Dementor's loyalties. My thoughts were varied on this subject but my basic conclusion was that the Dementors were either on Voldemort's side during the first war, or else for whatever reason, they were not present to join sides in the war (where they would have inevitably sided with LV). My original thoughts sounded better I think, but I hope you get the gist of why we were speculating that the Dementors weren't around for the first war. Have an action-packed, fun-filled night, KathyK From ivanova at idcnet.com Tue Jul 1 03:58:58 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 22:58:58 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New file uploaded to HPforGrownups References: <1057010052.4895.57369.w39@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <008601c33f85$1a6a24f0$54ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 66314 I have been wondering if someone could repost or upload all the things we said we could be sure were going to happen in this book (or things that weren't going to happen, I can't remember which one it was). I would be interested to take a look at this list again because I remember some of these things actually happened in the book when people said they weren't going to happen. Hope someone made sense of this. I know I'm not being very clear and concise here. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From kemp at arcom.com.au Tue Jul 1 04:01:07 2003 From: kemp at arcom.com.au (pickle_jimmy) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 04:01:07 -0000 Subject: OOP: Blood Protection or No Protection Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66315 1) Sorry if this had been done before (I've been busy for a week and missed a huge bunch of posts) 2) Is the OOP FAQ (which was a brilliant reader's digest version of the discussion till then) being added to as more topics come to light and have a general concensus answer? 3) Now for my question: How much protection does Privett Drive offer Harry? No-one seems concerned for his safety while he is actually *in* the house, but extreme measures are taken while he isnt (eg the fact that he needed "eight or nine" wizards to escort him to Grimmauld Place). He is just round the corner from Privett Drive when he is attacked by dementors, Mrs Figg has to get him back inside the house. After the attack, Mr Weasley & Sirius are only concerned with him staying in the house. Dumbledore is having him followed where ever he goes - whether at home or at hogwarts (he is followed on his trip to hogsmead) So, obviously the house is safe, and seemingly outside the house isn't safe. So what's the big deal about him calling Privett Drive home. He's only there during summer holidays - he might just as well have been at Grimmauld Place with Sirius - wouldn't that be *just as safe*. If this blood thing runs deeper than protection inside the house, why all the other precautions? If Harry is still in danger of attack what is the good of the protection? It's no use if it only protects him against Voldemort - Voldemort missed the end of the prophecy, so doesn't know it is him that is destined to kill Harry - he could send dementors himself to finish Harry at Privett Drive. Help Pickle Jimmy From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 04:09:18 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 00:09:18 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: James, headboy without having been prefect? Message-ID: <94.3a02c3ef.2c32636e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66316 In a message dated 6/29/2003 6:06:11 AM Central Standard Time, medeia_no at yahoo.no writes: > Hagrid told Harry that his parents had been headboy and headgirl. > Now, things might be different at Hogwarts, but at every other school > I've been to you have to be prefect in order to become headboy/girl. > > But in OOP, Harry finds out that James wasn't a prefect. > > so how does this all add up? > > Varana > Really? According to a friend of mine its not that uncommon to be a Head without having been Prefect. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 04:09:45 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 04:09:45 -0000 Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups In-Reply-To: <008601c33f85$1a6a24f0$54ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66317 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" wrote: > I have been wondering if someone could repost or upload all the things we > said we could be sure were going to happen in this book (or things that > weren't going to happen, I can't remember which one it was). I would be > interested to take a look at this list again because I remember some of > these things actually happened in the book when people said they weren't > going to happen. > > Hope someone made sense of this. I know I'm not being very clear and > concise here. > > Kelly Grosskreutz > http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova I know precisely what you mean Kelly, there was two lists and with them fresh in my mind while reading OoP they added a few extra laughs to my reading experience. For example Ron did indeed call someone a "git". I would love to see both lists picked over they were aproximately 200 points long each though weren't they? It will be a tremendous job. What I anticipate most is the novel moments when Jo abandoned her previous writing traditions and sunk ones we just *knew* would sail. Moni From Pjamelan at comcast.net Tue Jul 1 02:54:00 2003 From: Pjamelan at comcast.net (griffinmore) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 02:54:00 -0000 Subject: ADMIN OOP: READ THIS FIRST - the most frequently asked questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66318 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" wrote: > > For those most Frequently Asked OOP Questions - the most Frequent > Answers. Feel free to disagree with them! > > So, you've decided to join the list after OoP. A good moment, you > think. A new start. Maybe you used to lurk. Maybe you're new. Maybe > you were on hiatus. Maybe you were here all along. And suddenly, > there are 2000 posts staring at you in the face in the course of > three days. How can anyone keep up? How can you know if your > thoughts have been discussed to death? The answer is not easy, so > (having kept up with the list for 12 straight hours before my brain > started to leak out of my ears), I have composed a FAQ of OoP > questions: > > > I have just a few questions that were not answered by this extensive list. here goes: 1) I have wondered about the reason for Sirius' death. Is it possible that the reason Sirius died was that he had to? We have seen how Harry hardly ever goes to Dumbledore if he is worried about something. Even when others are adamant that he do so. Since he met Sirius, he has relied on him as an advisor. Dumbledore has even relied on others to care for Harry (The Dursleys, the Weasleys)or teach him (Snape in Occlumency). I can't remember the exact quote but in OOP, Dumbledore tells Harry, more or less, that he should have taught him Occlumency himself. I know that went a little long, but I felt the need to explain my question. Harry consulted Sirius before he would consult Dumbledore about everything. Both Harry and Dumbledore have become comfortable with this situation. Wouldn't Sirius have to go away, or DIE, for Harry to finally rely on Dumbledore and for Dumbledore to finally see that he has to come clean with Harry? 2) The prophesy says that either HArry must kill Voldermort or Voldermort must kill Harry. In GOF, we saw that their wands will not work properly against each other. So how will they be able to kill each other? Or is it just that their wands won't work properly in a duel? 3) Doesn't it seem kind of wierd that a great deal of the Death Eaters were found on the Black Family Tree. They all have that long black hair. How do we know that they aren't related to Slytherin? We don't know what Voldy's mother's name was. And Voldermort seems to have recruited alot of members from that family. Maybe it was family loyalty. I mean, he has a special affinity For Ballatrix. Maybe she's his favorite cousin? 4) In PS/SS, when Harry looks the the Mirror of Erised, he sees his family. Is he seeing only his Wizarding family, because some of them have his nose, knobbly knees, and eyes? Could this mean that there could be some validity to the rumor that Lily's family was affiliated with magic? Maybe her mother and father weren't magical, but there has to have been other Evan's that were if they were in the mirror. That could be why Petunia was so resentful towards Lily, because Lily re-introduced magic to the Evans family. 5) Harry is the last Potter, maybe. So shouldn't he have a house, like Grimmauld Place, out there if the Potter's were a pure-blood family? It appears that If Dumbledore has so many of Harry's father's possessions, he knew and was trusted by that family. People have speculated but doesn't it seem now plausible that Dumbledore is related to Harry, but he doesn't want others to know? 6) Harry's protection is from his mother, through her blood. Isn't it possible that Petunia is not Harry's ONLY living relative but simply his mother's only sibling. She's the only person with blood genetically similar to his mother. She's the only one who could seal the charm of protection for Dumbledore. Maybe he couldn't do it because it had to be a person who had the same mother and father as Lily; Virtually the same blood? If anyone can shed some light on these questions or if they have come up before, I would greatly appreciate any information or other opinions you could give. Griffinmore From sleepygirl003 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 02:55:12 2003 From: sleepygirl003 at hotmail.com (sleepygirl003) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 02:55:12 -0000 Subject: staff housing Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66319 I'm new, so forgive me if this has been throughly discussed (as I imagine it might have been). Where dothe hogwarts staff live? We're seen MM in a dressing gown, so she must live in the castle somewhere. And why are the all single and without children? is that a criteria for professorship? -Leslianne, newly grownup From banjoken at optonline.net Tue Jul 1 04:14:59 2003 From: banjoken at optonline.net (banjo_ken) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 04:14:59 -0000 Subject: OOP: That "Oh my gosh" moment. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66320 I had to read the sorting hat song again the first time I read that part. Never expected the hat to issue such an ominous warning. I had hoped (and still do), that this was foreshadowing a time when the houses *would* have to unite to fight a common enemy. The revolt against Umbridge was a good start, but Slytherin for the most part wasn't involved in that. I want to see some real unification! Ken From boggles at earthlink.net Tue Jul 1 04:15:27 2003 From: boggles at earthlink.net (Jennifer Boggess Ramon) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 23:15:27 -0500 Subject: OOP: Flower Names In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66321 At 8:19 PM +0000 6/30/03, tigerpatronus wrote: > >Could someone consult the OotP and see if it >*says* they were sisters, because this flower vs. astral names thing >is a definite possibility? The flower names seem to just be common in the wizarding world in general - we also have Lavender Brown, Pansy Parkinson, Fleur Delacour, Madam Poppy Pomfrey, Olive Hornby, Moaning Myrtle, Daisy Pennifold (from QttA), and the Fat' Lady's portrait-friend Violet. I doubt all of these people are related. Moreover, Lily is Muggle-born, there is some evidence that Lavender is also Muggle-born or at least was brought up in the Muggle world, and Petunia is (at least to our knowledge so far) not even a part of the wizarding world, while Narcissa would appear to be a pureblood from the Tapestry. One would assume that Pansy is also a pureblood, or at least a half-blood who if working her way up in the world. I don't think the flower names signify relations. Some males also have plant names - for example, Burdock Muldoon (from FBaWTFT). There's also at least one ministry wizard named Basil mentioned in GoF, although I suppose that doesn't quite count. Oliver Wood might also fall in this category. If anything, I would tend to think the flower names are either mere convenience or a reference to Tolkien - most of the named female hobbits in his stories have flower names. (An Eleanor Branstone is sorted into Hufflepuff in GoF; she has an excellent name for a hobbit.) - Boggles (who makes her own perfumes out of essential oils, and a few of her experiments have smelled unusual indeed) -- - Boggles, aka J. C. B. Ramon boggles(at)earthlink.net "It is not knowledge, but the act of learning, not possession but the act of getting there, which grants the greatest enjoyment. " - Gauss, in a Letter to Bolyai, 1808. From jsmithqwert at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 03:09:06 2003 From: jsmithqwert at hotmail.com (jsmithqwert) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 03:09:06 -0000 Subject: OOP: Umbridge's observation of O.W.L.'s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66322 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "owlery2003" wrote: > And that's odd, isn't it? Umbridge has a hard time with the > Centaurs, is rescued by Dumbledore, gets to recoup in the Infirmary > and later slinks away? After she's admitted to the Dementor attack > and after attempting to use an unforgiveable curse on a student!? > Dolores Jane Umbridge should be in Azkaban instead of running loose! > I always suspected her of being a Voldy plant. No right-thinking > Ministry official would have sent Dementors to Little Whinging! > We've not seen the end of Umbridge. Why was she permitted to get > away in this fashion? I don't think that anyone with authority knows about the dementors, the "special" quill, or the intent to use crucio. None of the Slytherins are going to say anything, and I don't think that it has dawned on HRHrNGL to say anything about it. I believe that someone will catch up with her some day, but it probably will be for some future abomination, not for these terrible actions. Other than these three things, I really don't think that anyone can punish her for what she did. After all, none of it was illegal, it was sanctioned by the MoM, it didn't really hurt anyone, and she was acting in what she thought was the best interest of the school and its students. From ajlboston at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 04:19:07 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 04:19:07 -0000 Subject: OOP - Greasy haired odd kids In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66323 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dragonelle01" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sydney" wrote: > > > > > The greasy hair I think JKR kept on as a mark of how much baggage > > Snape is still carrying from his messed-up youth in Knockturn Alley > > (c'mon, he HAS to have grown up there!). > > If he ever goes through some > > therapy and pulls himself together, she'd let us know in a steamy > > shower scene. Both equally likely scenarios sadly. > > ...Steamy...shower...scene? Ah, I see, where he is finally washing his hair! :) A.J. From magicroxx at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 03:11:13 2003 From: magicroxx at yahoo.com (magicroxx) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 03:11:13 -0000 Subject: OOP: Snape is still BAD Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66324 First, my reasons, then JK's Okay, there seems to be a lot of Snape lovers out there, and I certainly can see the point to which you feel sorry for him. I have read the book 3 times now and I think I dislike him even more. I mean to have gone through something so horrible, to live a life so terrible and then to add to the misery of someone who's life is so much worse than yours. Think about Snape in terms of Harry, what justifications does he have then? NONE. Snape lived a miserable life, he had a horrible childhood with an abusive father. He was a loner at school and nobody really liked him. (I don't think it was just because he 'existed'. I can think of a few good reasons, one being that he called Lily a mudblood. He didn't say "I don't want help from a girl" he said MUDBLOOD. What a horrible thing to say!! (think about that situation and someone using the **N** word) Harry never knew his parents and yes I think this may be better than Snape's childhood. Snape however didn't grow up with the Dursleys. Do you know how big a cupboard under the stairs is? Being chased up a tree. We all know the points where Harry's life has been miserable. Yes, he is still kool, yes he is famous. You would think though, that we would have seen a Harry that maybe hates muggles for the way he was treated, or some other serious downfall, but we don't. Also, its not like Snape doesn't know all this, he saw harry's memories. Their lives were both horrible and never does Snape ever say "Gee, I guess this kid's life isn't all peachy" Instead he clings to his petty childhood hatred. He never seperates James from Harry and he is completely oblivious to the way he effects people. He has a completely WARPED sense of morality. I am sure Snape has done some terrible things and we can only begin to imagine. Most IMPORTANTLY though, in the webcast interview, JK says that all the people who like Snape and Draco are scary. (well not exactly, I am paraphrasing) BUT, she says the reason Snape never got the DADA job was because Dumbledore thought it would bring out the worst in him. She said, don't feel too sorry for Snape, he is definitely worth keeping your eyes on. From sleepygirl003 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 03:18:05 2003 From: sleepygirl003 at hotmail.com (sleepygirl003) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 03:18:05 -0000 Subject: House pride post-hogwarts/houses of marauders Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66325 I doubt the marauders could represent each of the 4 houses. Who could be from hufflepuff? Wormtail is far from loyal, and I think Sirius and Lupin aren't exactly hard-working either. No, i think all four belonged to Gryff. Wormtail is the only one who doesn't seem to fit in, but how else would he have found the other boys. And I suspect wehave yet to see how brave he can be. -Leslianne, who liked Scabbers and is willing to forgive From jsmithqwert at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 03:23:31 2003 From: jsmithqwert at hotmail.com (jsmithqwert) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 03:23:31 -0000 Subject: OOtP: Molly's Shortcomings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66326 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ignacio" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "megalynn44" > wrote: > > I also found it irritating that, of all the people coming in and > out > > of the Black house, Molly was the only one to cook and organize the > > cleaning. Penny, I wondered too what exactly she was doing for the > > Order, as I didn't see her do more than fuss over her family and > > Harryand criticize Sirius and Mundungus. > > > --jenny from ravenclaw, > > > > Now Me: > > > > I would like to defend Molly now. She is a stereotypical MOTHER. > She > > fuses and fretts and LOVES. She barks but she doesn't bite. She > would > > never disown one of her kids. She will always be there for them, > and > > if her encouraging and pushing her kids to be good at school is a > bad > > thing, then I think we have forgotten what a parent is. Even when > > Percy said those Horribly outrageous things to Arther she still > went > > to London to try to patch things up. She took Harry in without a > > second thought and loves him like her own child. She is a wonderful > > asset not only to the kids but the order. Everyone needs a mother, > > even the Order of the Pheonix, they need someone to care for > everyone > > and be there for everyone. > > > > > > I asked before OOP what did Molly do with her time? If the > Weasley's > > were so strapped for cash why didn't she get a job, the kids are > out > > of the house most the year. However, now it is evident that that is > > where she is in her element. She seems most talented at running a > > household, and even though, especially today, not many people value > > that, I think she is a valuable asset being the person she is. > > > > Just my two knuts > > > > ~Megalynn > I agree that she is quite valuble as a homemaker, even to the order. If she didn't clean the house, do the laundry, see to the children, coordinate schedules/meetings and messages, and generally handle a lot of the logistical things for the order, who would? Surely they can't have people comming and going and leaving messages and going to meetings without providing a place to stay if they're comming from far off or without a meal if they're schedules are full, which I am sure they are. Additionally, after the house is clean and the kids are off to school, she probably does other important things for the order, like buy supplys, chat up the merchants in Diagon Alley (who are probably a hive of imformation), etc. . . Molly excells at being a support wife and mother. As a member of the order, she seems to be sacrificing herself emotionally and physically to take on that capacity for a lot more people who can then concentrate on doing the things that they do best, like tracking down and spying on Voldemort. jsmithqwert From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 04:20:42 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 04:20:42 -0000 Subject: OOP: Blood Protection or No Protection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66327 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pickle_jimmy" wrote: > 1) Sorry if this had been done before (I've been busy for a week and > missed a huge bunch of posts) > > 2) Is the OOP FAQ (which was a brilliant reader's digest version of > the discussion till then) being added to as more topics come to light > and have a general concensus answer? > > 3) Now for my question: > > How much protection does Privett Drive offer Harry? No-one seems > concerned for his safety while he is actually *in* the house, but > extreme measures are taken while he isnt (eg the fact that he > needed "eight or nine" wizards to escort him to Grimmauld Place). > > He is just round the corner from Privett Drive when he is attacked by > dementors, Mrs Figg has to get him back inside the house. > > After the attack, Mr Weasley & Sirius are only concerned with him > staying in the house. > > Dumbledore is having him followed where ever he goes - whether at > home or at hogwarts (he is followed on his trip to hogsmead) > > So, obviously the house is safe, and seemingly outside the house > isn't safe. > > So what's the big deal about him calling Privett Drive home. He's > only there during summer holidays - he might just as well have been > at Grimmauld Place with Sirius - wouldn't that be *just as safe*. > > If this blood thing runs deeper than protection inside the house, why > all the other precautions? If Harry is still in danger of attack what > is the good of the protection? It's no use if it only protects him > against Voldemort - Voldemort missed the end of the prophecy, so > doesn't know it is him that is destined to kill Harry - he could send > dementors himself to finish Harry at Privett Drive. > > Help > > Pickle Jimmy Good points all Jimmy, This part of the book is terribly confusing isn't it, I expect that the "place to call home" charm is linked only to Lily's sacrifice and hence would be something that LV is quite aware of. Dolores Umbridge sent the dementors, aside: [is that only because she is a truly sick sadistic woman or is she in league with DE's? ] and conveniently Mundungus was away at the time, 'on a business expedition'. Excuse me for saying so, if its been looked over before but... it is a little *too* convenient for Mundungus to have been absent that evening. Exactly *who* enticed him with the cauldrons, was it part of a DE conspiracy, and if so, how is it that they appear to have a *lot* more knowledge of the OoP's activities, than they should? Valky From sleepygirl003 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 03:32:07 2003 From: sleepygirl003 at hotmail.com (sleepygirl003) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 03:32:07 -0000 Subject: Death in the Weasley family?! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66328 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rach" wrote: >>> Personally though I think he will redeem himself, but not before he is hit by loss and suffering. A number of people have suggested that he might die fighting, but I see him being more profoundly affected by loosing family members. He will be the one to live on to understand his mistakes and regret that he took a loving family for granted. But what type of loss would be that profund? The death of a family member or the death of his current idol, Fudge? I say: The Weasley's are untouchable! They can't die, they just can't! Arthur's injury (in OoP) and Ginny's close call (in CoS) were the closest they will come, because... because they just aren't the dying sorts! They are all too important--except for Bill and Charlie, who are too unimportant. Unless JKR makes some very dramatic plot changes--changes that will completely eject HP from the Children's lit genre, I can't bear imagining that any, ANY Weasleys will die. -Leslianne, who dearly loves all the Weasleys except Percy, and who would cry for months if any of them died, even Percy (because if Percy died the rest of the family would nevertheless be devestated,) and who also happens to like Mrs. Weasley very much even though she is terribly overprotective and even frustrating From sleepygirl003 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 03:40:40 2003 From: sleepygirl003 at hotmail.com (sleepygirl003) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 03:40:40 -0000 Subject: OOP: Umbridge's observation of O.W.L.'s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66329 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M. J. Pascual" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "innovan" wrote: > > [Spoiler Space] > > > > > > > > There's a good chance she'll come back as DADA next year precisely > > because of the O.W.L. results of Harry's class having used her > > program. > > > > Umbridge teaching N.E.W.T. level DADA. That's pure Evil. > > I don't see this happening, now that Dumbledore's returned. He's > assumed the mantle of Headmaster by _telling_ the Minister. He > told the Minister to call off the Aurors hunting Hagrid, and told > the minster to remove Umbridge -- and with every expectation that > Fudge would do what he had asked. To send Umbridge back after > being dead wrong about Voldemort, would be asking for more trouble > from Dumbledore than he already has. > > --Mark Not to mention the fact that Umbridge's wand broke--breaking wands has so far been very permanent in the series. Speaking of which, do you suppose that part of the reason that Neville has been a weak wizard is because he was using his father's wand? Perhaps with a new wand next year... -Leslianne, who hasn't yet come to a conclusion about Neville's role in the prophecy From wildean at shibaotu.fsworld.co.uk Tue Jul 1 04:12:33 2003 From: wildean at shibaotu.fsworld.co.uk (Wildean) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 05:12:33 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP - It's Butterbeer time! References: Message-ID: <044f01c33f87$0cb306e0$8bd687d9@b5c9d5> No: HPFGUIDX 66330 From: "jdr0918" Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP - It's Butterbeer time! > <<<"Wildean" wrote: > "digger" wrote: ButterBEER must have beer as an > ingredient!< Why must it? Spotted dick (as far as I know) contains no > dick, yorkshire pudding contains nothing that is specifically part > of "Yorkshire" and hedhehog flavoured crisps didn't REALLY contain > hedgehog.>>> > > The Sergeant Majorette says: > > No, but it does have spots -- raisins, that is. It's a huge tourist > attraction to Americans on their first visit to Britain. It is a > completely disgusting combination of beef suet, sugar and raisins > which really exists. Yorkshire pudding is another thing that really > exists... Hedgehog flavoured crisps are (or rather were) another real British foodstuff. As I said, they weren't really hedgehog flavoured (at least I hope not!) but just beef-flavoured. They were marketed to raise money for a charity that runs a hospital for hedgehogs and other wildlife, it's called St Tiggywinkle's. You can find them at http://www.sttiggywinkles.org.uk/ if you think I'm making this up. (In case you're wondering, crisps are known as 'chips' in the USA.) As this is getting off-topic, it may be best to discuss it in the OT-Chatter group (which I daren't join yet as I can barely cope with this list). Wildean From bebe940 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 04:17:45 2003 From: bebe940 at aol.com (bel522000) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 04:17:45 -0000 Subject: Percy as Boromir? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66331 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ugadawg02" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rach" wrote: > >>> Personally though I think he will redeem himself, but not before > he is hit by loss and suffering. A number of people have suggested > that he might die fighting, but I see him being more profoundly > affected by loosing family members. He will be the one to live on to > understand his mistakes and regret that he took a loving family for > granted. > > But what type of loss would be that profund? The death of a family > member or the death of his current idol, Fudge? > > -RJ I honestly think that Percy is working for the Order as an inside informant for the Dumbledore. I think the reason that none of the Weasleys can know this is for security reasons. I just do not believe that Percy would betray his family for money and status. That's just my opinion and take on the whole Percy thing. -bel From phoenixtears288 at cs.com Tue Jul 1 04:24:11 2003 From: phoenixtears288 at cs.com (phoenixtears288 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 00:24:11 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Luna! The new Hermione?? Message-ID: <51B68275.5B0486F2.03BDBC3C@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66332 "Brooke" wrote: >>>>>In the first four books I always felt like Hermione was JKR's surrogate character in most situations. Now, after reading OOP, I see some very interesting things about Luna that make me think that JKR may be transferring herself vicariously from Hermione to Luna. (For all you shippers... this could make for some interesting changes in opinion if it is at all true :o) IMHO, Luna's attitute seems to sort of transcend the petty, surface behavioral tendancies of her peers. She is quite straightforward, she's above taunting others, she takes others' teasing of her with a grain of salt, and many of her comments sound to me like the omniscient voice of wisdom. It's as if she is a Dumbledore in the making - the character with whom the author uses to introduce new thought provoking themes into the story.One big reason I was led to thinking this was the death of JKR's mother. She died of MS while JKR was writing one of the books (but I forget which one now). The comments that Luna makes about losing her mother were to me, chillingly insightful. I think maybe JKR may be re-entering the story with Luna now acting as her surrogate, rather than Hermione who is definitely taking on her own unique personality. Did anyone else think this about Luna as well?>>>>> Paige Woods' Reply: I must admit that when Luna first came into the book, I didn't like her. But as the book progressed, we got to learn more about Luna's character. And by the end of the book, Luna got moved up to the favorites. As for what this has to do with Brooke's post, I'm getting to it. I'm with you with JKR speaking through Luna now, instead of Hermione. But, JKR can still speak herself through Hermione. Like giving us facts about things about the war. So, let's see. JKR speaks through Hermione by facts; Dumbledore about love and emotion and the past, and now Luna. Hmm. Why is JKR speaking through her? ~Paige Woods~ From ivanova at idcnet.com Tue Jul 1 04:25:36 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 23:25:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizarding Relations, or, Who Left the Snapes Out? References: <1c4.bee98d1.2c31e44e@aol.com> Message-ID: <00d701c33f88$d2b9cd00$54ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 66333 > When Harry and Sirius are looking over the Black family tree, he (Sirius) > states that almost all the pureblood wizarding families are intermarried, as > there is no one else for them to marry. I didn't notice the grand old name of > Snape there, and I'm sure Harry would have mentioned it had he seen it. > Whether these means anything or nothing, I know not. I'm just wondering if > Snape's father is/was a Muggle (hence the shouting scene and the seemingly > unhappy home--and the reason young Severus is practicing magic in his room). > Interesting if the Head of Slytherin House isn't a pureblood! > Ba I am on my second read of this book, and have just come to the part where Sirius and Harry are looking at the family tree. I do notice that Harry is not really looking at every last name, but mainly where Sirius directs him to look. The only time I notice Harry looking at something on his own is when he notices that Andromeda's sister is Mrs. Malfoy, and notes Draco is related to Sirius. He sees the black spot that once was Sirius, Sirius directs him to his brother Regulus, but as far as I can tell, Harry doesn't even take a look at Sirius's parents. Not once do we even hear a name for them besides Mother and Father or Mr. and Mrs. Black. The reason I post this is because I wonder what Mrs. Black's maiden name was. I was thinking we had some sort of a physical description of Mrs. Black, but all we are given is yellowing skin (along with rolling eyes and a cap on her head). Anyway, the yellowing skin must have been what stuck in my head when I began to post. The yellowish skin put me in mind immediately with Snape, who is always described as having sallow skin. Is there a possibility that her maiden name could be Snape? Perhaps she is Severus's aunt, his father's sister. Although I am of the firm belief that most of Severus's hair problem comes from his lack of self-confidence and him just not caring enough to do something about it, this does not mean that some of it could be genetic and this is why Mrs. Black is wearing a cap over her hair. I admit, one reason I have this idea in my head is because I have seen fanart of Snape and Sirius that had them looking somewhat alike. I am going out on a limb by even posting this, but there is a chance this could be the case, so therefore I post it. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From banjoken at optonline.net Tue Jul 1 04:36:53 2003 From: banjoken at optonline.net (banjo_ken) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 04:36:53 -0000 Subject: OOP-Harry & Unforgivables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66334 Who says AK is the only way to kill someone? There are plenty of other ways, even if they aren't as efficient. Also, I'm not at all convinced that AK would work anyway. It didn't work the first time, did it? Assuming Voldemort got the full blast of it when it rebounded off baby Harry, it wasn't enough to kill him totally. I think Harry, if he kills at all, is going to have to find another way. Personally, though, I think that Harry will find another way to fulfill the prophecy without dying and without having to resort to murder. Prophecy, by it's very nature, is very vague, and I fully expect JKR to do something that both fits the prophecy perfectly, and at the same time is completely unexpected. Ken From rachrobins at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 04:38:55 2003 From: rachrobins at hotmail.com (Rach) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 04:38:55 -0000 Subject: OOP: Umbridge's observation of O.W.L.'s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66335 "innovan" wrote: >>>There's a good chance she'll come back as DADA next year precisely because of the O.W.L. results of Harry's class having used her program. Umbridge teaching N.E.W.T. level DADA. That's pure Evil.>>> Mark wrote: >>>I don't see this happening, now that Dumbledore's returned. He's assumed the mantle of Headmaster by _telling_ the Minister. He told the Minister to call off the Aurors hunting Hagrid, and told the minster to remove Umbridge -- and with every expectation that Fudge would do what he had asked. To send Umbridge back after being dead wrong about Voldemort, would be asking for more trouble from Dumbledore than he already has.>>> Leslianne wrote: <<>> Neville: Even Professor McGonnagal thinks Neville's problem is confidence, and he's shown that when it matters he has got the right stuff (ie in the ministry of magic, in his pactical potions OWL). His wand may have something to do with it, but surely his father's wand would have helped him if anything. Umbridge: I can see Umbridge having a part to play in the next book. I cant see her coming back to Hogwarts (not after being chased out of the place by Peeves brandishing McGonnagal's walking stick), I think she will have a part to play much like Barty Crouch Snr - on the side of right, but essentially just as evil in approach and deeds as the death eaters themselves - further illustrating the point that the world isn't divided up into good guys and death eaters (a challenging concept for children). Rach From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 04:41:40 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 04:41:40 -0000 Subject: OoP: What was wrong with Sirius theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66336 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tigerpatronus" wrote: > Cool! I think we're unravelled the Mimbleplant! Also, excellent > observation, Mlle Bienvenu, about who got sprayed with mimble > stickpus and who was foolhardily brave and "mesmerized" by the veil. > Bravissimo! > > TK -- Tigerpatronus Mlle Bienvenu: -blushes- Actually I can't take credit for it, as I was only paraphrasing the contents of that thread... From ivanova at idcnet.com Tue Jul 1 04:43:43 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 23:43:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Book 6/7 prediction: Harry, Snape and DADA References: <20030630175955.33124.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00f201c33f8b$5a9e6580$54ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 66337 > > --- Tim wrote: > > If Snape becomes the DADA teacher, that's the end of Snape. > > It may > > be a running joke in the series, but every year there's a new > > DADA > > teacher. IF Snape becomes DADA in book 6, don't expect him to > > be > > there for book 7. > Stacy asked: > This brings back to my mind a question that I've often had, but > not while in front of a computer. :) Do we know anything about > the DADA teachers before Harry started at Hogwarts? Was it > always a doomed position, or is this a relatively new > phenomenon? And, either way, why on earth would anyone, even > Snape, want the position? Perhaps he thinks he's immune to all > of the bad things that have happened to DADA teachers in the > last four years. Kelly: I was thinking on just this question today. If Snape has been applying for the DADA position fourteen years in a row, this could imply at first glance that the position has needed to be filled every year. The only thing I think we know for sure, though, about past DADA teachers is what we hear in PS/SS. Quirrell was back after taking a year's leave of absence to get first hand experience at defending himself against the Dark Arts. So I put forth that Quirrell was the DADA teacher two years before Harry's arrival at Hogwarts. Fred and George would have had him their first year and Percy in his third. Someone else filled in the DADA position for the year that Quirrell was gone. Because Quirrell felt the need to go and gain practical experience in his subject field, this makes me think that he only taught it that one year before going to Albania. Wasn't he described as being young? Anyway, this knowledge helps us to cover half of these fourteen years; Harry's five years at Hogwarts and the two precedint his arrival. So now we need to fill in the other seven? What happened to them? I, for one, don't plan to hold my breath waiting for the answer. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From phoenixtears288 at cs.com Tue Jul 1 04:48:21 2003 From: phoenixtears288 at cs.com (phoenixtears288 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 00:48:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP_Black's Family Motto Message-ID: <269F1526.2F02024F.03BDBC3C@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66338 I was re-reading the book again, and came upon the Black's Family Motto. "Toujours Pur". Then I was inspired to figure out what it means. Stupid as I was, I first looked it up under a Latin Dictionary. Where that got nowhere, I looked the words up under a French Dictionary. Here's what I found: ~Toujours~ always 1. en tous temps [v], toujours [v] ever 1. jadis [adv], un jour [adv] 2. en tous temps [v], toujours [v] increasingly 1. de plus en plus [v], toujours plus [v] more and more 1. de plus en plus [v], toujours plus [v] OK, so it's safe to say Toujours means "forever" as for "Pur": gruel 1. bouillie [M], pure mere 1. pur [adj] mess 1. bouillie [M], pure mush 1. bouillie [M], pure simple 1. pur [adj], simple [adj] sole 1. pur [adj] 2. plante, plante du pied 3. semelle 4. seul [adj] 5. sole solitary 1. pur [adj] 2. seul [adj] straightforward 1. pur [adj], simple [adj] OK, this one wasn't as easy as the last one. From what I conclude, "Pur" in the Motto means "alone". So the motto is "Forever Alone." Hmm... anyone have a theory? ~Paige Woods From s_ings at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 04:53:51 2003 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 00:53:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP_Black's Family Motto In-Reply-To: <269F1526.2F02024F.03BDBC3C@cs.com> Message-ID: <20030701045351.59018.qmail@web41112.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66339 --- phoenixtears288 at cs.com wrote: > I was re-reading the book again, and came upon the > Black's Family Motto. "Toujours Pur". Then I was > inspired to figure out what it means. Stupid as I > was, I first looked it up under a Latin Dictionary. > Where that got nowhere, I looked the words up under > a French Dictionary. Here's what I found: > > ~Toujours~ > > always > 1. en tous temps [v], toujours [v] > > ever > 1. jadis [adv], un jour [adv] > 2. en tous temps [v], toujours [v] > > increasingly > 1. de plus en plus [v], toujours plus [v] > > more and more > 1. de plus en plus [v], toujours plus [v] > > OK, so it's safe to say Toujours means "forever" as > for "Pur": > > OK, this one wasn't as easy as the last one. From > what I conclude, "Pur" in the Motto means "alone". > > So the motto is "Forever Alone." Hmm... anyone have > a theory? > Actually, there's a definition for 'pur' missing from that list. I even looked it up, though just relying on my knowledge of French was correct. 'Pur' also means pure, so the motto would, IMO, be translated as 'Forever Pure'. Sheryll ===== "No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously." - Dave Barry ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From kemp at arcom.com.au Tue Jul 1 04:54:25 2003 From: kemp at arcom.com.au (pickle_jimmy) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 04:54:25 -0000 Subject: OoP_Black's Family Motto In-Reply-To: <269F1526.2F02024F.03BDBC3C@cs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66340 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, phoenixtears288 at c... wrote: > I was re-reading the book again, and came upon the Black's Family Motto. "Toujours Pur". Then I was inspired to figure out what it means. Stupid as I was, I first looked it up under a Latin Dictionary. Where that got nowhere, I looked the words up under a French Dictionary. Here's what I found: > > ~Toujours~ > > always > 1. en tous temps [v], toujours [v] > > ever > 1. jadis [adv], un jour [adv] > 2. en tous temps [v], toujours [v] > > increasingly > 1. de plus en plus [v], toujours plus [v] > > more and more > 1. de plus en plus [v], toujours plus [v] > > OK, so it's safe to say Toujours means "forever" as for "Pur": > > gruel > 1. bouillie [M], pur?e > > mere > 1. pur [adj] > > mess > 1. bouillie [M], pur?e > > mush > 1. bouillie [M], pur?e > > simple > 1. pur [adj], simple [adj] > > sole > 1. pur [adj] > 2. plante, plante du pied > 3. semelle > 4. seul [adj] > 5. sole > > solitary > 1. pur [adj] > 2. seul [adj] > > straightforward > 1. pur [adj], simple [adj] > > OK, this one wasn't as easy as the last one. From what I conclude, "Pur" in the Motto means "alone". > > So the motto is "Forever Alone." Hmm... anyone have a theory? > > ~Paige Woods And "Ever Pure" or "Forever Pure" didn't come to you?? Wouldn't it be obvious from Mrs Black's abuse of non-purebloods that their motto may have something to do with Pure? Just a thought Pickle Jimmy From qmasters at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 04:58:16 2003 From: qmasters at yahoo.com (quimbyquidditch) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 04:58:16 -0000 Subject: OoP_Black's Family Motto In-Reply-To: <269F1526.2F02024F.03BDBC3C@cs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66341 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, phoenixtears288 at c... wrote: > OK, this one wasn't as easy as the last one. From what I conclude, "Pur" in the Motto means "alone". > > So the motto is "Forever Alone." Hmm... anyone have a theory? > > ~Paige Woods Actually pur means pure. (Alone is seul.) So, the motto means, "always pure" or "forever pure", as in pure-blood. Remember Mrs. Black was always insulting Sirius for allowing "muggle lovers" and (sorry) "mudbloods" into her home. She cut Tonks and her mother off the family tree because Tonks' mother married a muggle. The Blacks (at least most of them) pride themselves on the purity of their wizarding blood. quimbyquidditch, who is glad her six years of French finally was good for something! From xpectopatronum at yahoo.com.au Tue Jul 1 05:00:30 2003 From: xpectopatronum at yahoo.com.au (Cindy) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 05:00:30 -0000 Subject: OOP: Snape is still BAD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66342 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "magicroxx" wrote: > Okay, there seems to be a lot of Snape lovers out there, and I > certainly can see the point to which you feel sorry for him. I have > read the book 3 times now and I think I dislike him even more. Now me (Cindy): I like him even more now, becuase I can understand him even better than before. And it is not because I feel sorry for him. > Also, its not like Snape doesn't know all this, he saw harry's > memories. Their lives were both horrible and never does Snape ever > say "Gee, I guess this kid's life isn't all peachy" Instead he clings > to his petty childhood hatred. He never seperates James from Harry > and he is completely oblivious to the way he effects people. He has a > completely WARPED sense of morality. I am sure Snape has done some > terrible things and we can only begin to imagine. Me again (Cindy): I do agree with you here completely. It is very immature behavour. But, Snape is not the only person who acts this way. Sirius Black, for one, is even worse. > Most IMPORTANTLY though, in the webcast interview, JK says that all > the people who like Snape and Draco are scary. (well not exactly, I > am paraphrasing) BUT, she says the reason Snape never got the DADA > job was because Dumbledore thought it would bring out the worst in > him. She said, don't feel too sorry for Snape, he is definitely worth > keeping your eyes on. Me again (Cindy): Yes, JKR did say this. And I can't wait to find out more about Snape becuase she said this. The suspense is killling me. And I will back Snape up no matter what. And looking at all the Snape fansites out there, I know I am definately not the only one. You don't understand why Snape fans like Snape because you are not yourself a Snape fan. Snape is misunderstood and so are we. But we understand each other. Snape fans unite! -Cindy who had to get that out of her system. From doliesl at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 05:02:56 2003 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (doliesl) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 05:02:56 -0000 Subject: OOP: Snape is still BAD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66343 > Most IMPORTANTLY though, in the webcast interview, JK says that all > the people who like Snape and Draco are scary. (well not exactly, I > am paraphrasing) BUT, she says the reason Snape never got the DADA > job was because Dumbledore thought it would bring out the worst in > him. She said, don't feel too sorry for Snape, he is definitely worth > keeping your eyes on. Actually JKR has never said anything disapproving about people who likes Snape at all. She expressed that only about Draco ("you guys are getting a little too fond of him."). Here's a more accurate reflection on what she has said (from my memory): SF: and later you just get this idea that maybe he (Snape)'s not so bad after all... JKR: Yes, uh, but you shouldn't think he's... too nice. Let me just say that. He's worth keeping an eye on. Old Severus. Definitely. I didn't get the feeling that she didn't want people liking Snape at all (that would be a shame! Creating such an interesting and complex character and expect no one likes him?) . She kept reminding us to "keep an eye on Severus" already tells you a lot about this character being one of her favorites to write, and what interesting things she has installed for him in future books. Snape is the kind of interesting character that she expects the reactions/attentions from readers. And honestly, most of the Snape fans don't "like" Snape because he's *nice* anyway. -D. From xpectopatronum at yahoo.com.au Tue Jul 1 05:07:58 2003 From: xpectopatronum at yahoo.com.au (Cindy) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 05:07:58 -0000 Subject: OOP: Snape is still BAD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66344 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "doliesl" wrote: > Actually JKR has never said anything disapproving about people who > likes Snape at all. She expressed that only about Draco ("you guys > are getting a little too fond of him."). > > Here's a more accurate reflection on what she has said (from my > memory): > > SF: and later you just get this idea that maybe he (Snape)'s not so > bad after all... > > JKR: Yes, uh, but you shouldn't think he's... too nice. Let me just > say that. He's worth keeping an eye on. Old Severus. Definitely. > > I didn't get the feeling that she didn't want people liking Snape at > all (that would be a shame! Creating such an interesting and complex > character and expect no one likes him?) . She kept reminding us > to "keep an eye on Severus" already tells you a lot about this > character being one of her favorites to write, and what interesting > things she has installed for him in future books. Snape is the kind > of interesting character that she expects the reactions/attentions > from readers. And honestly, most of the Snape fans don't "like" Snape > because he's *nice* anyway. > > -D. Exactly! For more info about this use this link: http://www.designerpotions.com/ss/sssleuthing.html and go to the bottom of the page. I have discussed this interview here (my Snape site). -Cindy From wildean at shibaotu.fsworld.co.uk Tue Jul 1 04:53:42 2003 From: wildean at shibaotu.fsworld.co.uk (Wildean) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 05:53:42 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP_Black's Family Motto References: <269F1526.2F02024F.03BDBC3C@cs.com> Message-ID: <04b401c33f8c$c2b94940$8bd687d9@b5c9d5> No: HPFGUIDX 66345 From: Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP_Black's Family Motto > I was re-reading the book again, and came upon the Black's Family Motto. "Toujours Pur". Then I was inspired to figure out what it means. Stupid as I was, I first looked it up under a Latin Dictionary. Where that got nowhere, I looked the words up under a French Dictionary. Here's what I found: > OK, this one wasn't as easy as the last one. From what I conclude, "Pur" in the Motto means "alone". > > So the motto is "Forever Alone." Hmm... anyone have a theory? I looked up "Toujours Pur" on the Babel Fish web translator and it came up with "Forever Pure" which seems to make sense if you look at it in the sense of blood - as in 'pureblood'. Wildean From prisoneroflittlewhinging at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 04:53:43 2003 From: prisoneroflittlewhinging at yahoo.com (PrisonerOfLittleWhinging) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP_Black's Family Motto In-Reply-To: <269F1526.2F02024F.03BDBC3C@cs.com> Message-ID: <20030701045343.84811.qmail@web13309.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66346 Toujours Pur~ My guess is "always pure" or "forever pure." Either fits. Suzy --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dark30 at vcn.bc.ca Tue Jul 1 05:10:02 2003 From: dark30 at vcn.bc.ca (Dan Feeney) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 05:10:02 -0000 Subject: OOP:getting in and getting out questions and answers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66347 Well, if the DE had gotten rid of or otherwise prevented the guards, official staff etc. from being at MoM, stated as likely in the FAQ, they would certainly have rigged the phone, wouldn't they? I mean, it's one of the entrances. And Lucius must know just about everything about building security by now, having Fudge in his pocket... (snicker). It's still a funny line at the time, so this doesn't detract from the moment. Anyway, Lucius does say Voldemort is aware of Potter's hero rescuey thing (ie Potters compassion or whatever it is makes us do that stuff, often without thinking... etc etc). Why didn't Voldemort just get it, using his myriad magics? Because he was being cautious. He wasn't cautious the first time about the prophecy, and it cost him. As for Luna and her function in relation to Rowling in the books - well, perhaps a bit of a sacrificial lamb, maybe, so that Hermione can live? Luna representing "the room", or rather, knowledge of it or of what's in it (she thinks she knows what's in it, Luna does) - a part that is missing from the trio, but necessary for understanding the other magic that's mentioned in the prophecy, and is thus key. As for getting out of the series - how about portkeying (by hook or crook) Voldemort to the front of the arch, and then broomsticking him through (as he pulls Harry with him)? (don't quote me on the broomsticking thing, okay?) How about portkeying Voldemort into "the room"? How does one trick Voldemort? It would have to sound very rational, very straightforward, no hint of a trick. He can't really be forced, can he? Gotta create doubt, or great desire, in Voldemort's mind. Can a person or animal be a portkey? From elfundeb at comcast.net Tue Jul 1 04:56:23 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 00:56:23 -0400 Subject: OOP: Disappointing AND Excellent Message-ID: <011301c33f8d$1ec56f20$9ddc5644@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 66348 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." wrote: > > > In my case, I'm actually feeling a bit intimidated about saying > >what I *really* think about OoP lest those who liked the book take > offense. > Your disappointment and Phyllis's were finally enough to make me drag out my first impressions, which I mostly wrote nearly a week ago but didn't want to throw into the deluge. My apologies, as a lot of this has undoubtedly already been said. I found myself initially disappointed with OOP. Oddly, one of my sources of dissatisfaction was the number of things I'd predicted correctly, which took away any sense of excitement at the unfolding of events. The things that really touched me about OOP were things I hadn't foreseen -- Neville, for example. I felt cheated by the lack of any significant plot twists, and I was also completely unaffected by Sirius' demise, which I thought likely to happen very early in the book, and who was never a favorite character of mine. I was also really disappointed with the Dept of Mysteries episode; I felt like I was watching a run-of-the-mill action movie -- a genre I despise -- though to JKR's credit, I think the scenes were very vividly rendered. I feel comfortable, though, that this ending will not be repeated; the parallels between the ending of each book and the correspondingly numbered obstacle to the philosopher's stone seemed more apparent than ever this time around. (The fifth, the dead troll, was the only obstacle that Harry did not overcome himself.) This means I'm looking forward very much to book 6, as its numerical correspondence to potion puzzle implies that its ending will be very different and will emphasize the theme of choices. I didn't find the darkness of OOP disturbing. In fact, I thought GoF was a darker book in many ways. It definitely affected me more. I thought some of the clues she tucked in were very intriguing -- such as the fact that Petunia is familiar with Azkaban -- and I was not at all bothered by the fact that she did not follow up on it; after all, we need some fodder for backstory speculation. ;-) On the other hand, I thought a number of things that were irrelevant to the plot were slipped in primarily for the purpose of answering fans' questions -- like why isn't Hermione in Ravenclaw, which is the only one I can think of at the moment. I also thought there were more than the usual number of plot contrivances -- Hermione's apparent avoidance of her seemingly loving and exemplary parents because it's important that she be on hand at appropriate moments; the need for the Weasleys to spend the summer at Grimmauld Place for no apparent purpose other than to get Harry there and to do some overdue housecleaning and then to leave at the end of the summer so Sirius could go stir-crazy and do something rash, just to name two. I was still annoyed with the gender characterization in OOP. JKR did demonstrate that there are women in significant Ministry positions, but the only one that gets developed is unrelentingly evil. In fact, she's given us two Evil Women. Molly, OTOH, is shown as the OOP member in charge of the headquarters housecleaning team. And Tonks was rather pointless. Only the male OOP members we met turned out to have a role. The adult women are just too static for my taste. And while we saw both Hermione and Ginny take active roles, they were there to support the hero. At times, I felt that they were primarily out there establishing their shipping credentials to Harry. My sense, on first read, was that OOP was more about character, responsibility and mentorship, and less about plot, than the other books. Even though I had predicted where JKR was going with many of the characters, I think her character development was one of the strengths of OOP overall and something that connected OOP thematically to the prior books. In particular, I think she does an excellent job of balancing one character's actions against contrasting actions of other characters. Some observations: Harry -- IMO, it was critical to the story arc for Harry to fail in a significant way. It reminds us that Harry does not march forward inexorably toward his final defeat of Voldemort. He must actively *choose* that course. The vagueness in the wording of the prophecy bears this out. I didn't think Harry's anger came as a surprise; there have been hints of his anger throughout the series that foreshadowed what happened here. As a longtime PACMAN (Perfectly Angelic Characters Make Awful Novels) member, I found that I like Harry a lot better for his human weaknesses than for his superheroism. Hermione -- Hermione was *way* too successful in OOP. She made all the right choices, it seemed, giving her a new Super-Hermione flavor. On the other hand, she was snappish, strident and impatient with others. The only suggestion of failure here is in her campaign to free the house-elves. It failed, but she's still unaware of that fact. I believe she must be being set up to fail spectacularly in the next book. We've seen all the other main student characters fail now, and I think her turn is coming. I hope so, because I found her characterization in OOP bordering on Mary Sue-ism (including the not-so-subtle revelation that her Patronus was JKR's favorite animal) and it was hard to take. Ron -- I think JKR was quite effective here by awarding him responsibilities but letting us readers know that he had not earned either one. Another good bit of juxtaposition to show Ron finally pulling it together once he was completely left to his own devices at the same time Harry was experiencing failure for the first time. And I was constantly reminded of Elkins' observation that Ron is not designed to be a hurt comfort object. The curse of the giggles? What an embarrassment; it made the slug-belching look cute. Lupin -- I was a bit disappointed that Lupin did not have a greater role, but JKR has done a great job with his character. The fact that he was made a prefect and failed to do anything about squelching James and Sirius' extracurricular activities fits perfectly with what we know about him to date. Snape (and Sirius) -- I agree that Snape didn't get a lot of development here, and nothing I learned about him was a surprise. Again, I think JKR did a masterful job of contrasting Sirius and Snape as flawed mentors, and highlighting through them the lesson Harry has yet to learn about how to discern the strengths and weaknesses of those who would help him. (I keep going back to Padfoot Returns from GoF, where JKR did such a great job of revealing Sirius' prejudices while at the same time making him appear as a sage counselor.) Neville -- I was totally wrong about Neville; I didn't want to see him kicking DE butt, but JKR pulled it off in a truly wonderful way. I don't know if he will continue in this vein, though. Voldemort's choice of Harry as the subject of the prophecy, the snapping of his dad's wand and his smashing of the prophecy indicates to me that his will be a different course. I agree with the many others who found the most poignant scene in the book to be the one with the wrapper. For me, though, what made the scene was the juxtaposition of Gran's rather babyish treatment of her daughter-in-law and Neville's natural "Thanks, mum." > Cindy -- who hasn't even been able to bring herself to start reading > the book over yet I believe OOP will improve tremendously on rereading. Each time I go back to look something up, I notice something very revealing that she's tucked in quietly in a way that may easily go unnoticed. I wish I could find another uninterrupted weekend to do it, but I don't think the family would stand for it. Debbie who will need to provide grief counseling when hubby finishes the book and discovers that his favorite character is dead [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Noel.Chevalier at uregina.ca Tue Jul 1 05:21:31 2003 From: Noel.Chevalier at uregina.ca (shihtouji) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 05:21:31 -0000 Subject: OoP_Black's Family Motto In-Reply-To: <269F1526.2F02024F.03BDBC3C@cs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66349 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, phoenixtears288 at c... wrote: > > OK, this one wasn't as easy as the last one. From what I conclude, "Pur" in the Motto means "alone". > > So the motto is "Forever Alone." Hmm... anyone have a theory? > > ~Paige Woods As others have pointed out, it means "forever pure." Black's family are proud of their so-called racial purity. But to add to that, it reminded me of the term that "real" Quebecois (called French Canadians outside of Canada) call themselves: "pur laine," which translates roughly as "pure wool" or, more colloquially, "dyed-in-the- wool". The meaning's the same: that notion of purity in families who can trace their ancestry back to the first French immigrants. My father's family, impoverished though they are, trace their roots in Quebec back to about 1650, so that makes them as pur laine as anybody. And yes, purity of blood is used in some quarters of Quebec as horribly as it is in the WW--to get rid of all the Anglos and non- white immigrants, for one thing! Red Inkstone From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 05:29:29 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 05:29:29 -0000 Subject: A start on the preOoP 150+ list Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66350 Pre OoP we had a 200 strong list of unsinkable predictions. Here I have listed the first quarter of them and given my own opinion on how they fared. I would like to propose that we shortlist the best and worst of this list and file it for posterity. Anyone else in? Valky The list. 1. Ron will snarl Harry's stole Ron's thunder in OoP didn't he. 2. Hermione will moan. Did she? 3. Harry will recognize something instantly. He did indeed recognise several things. Though the corridor in his dream too him *All Year* 4. Hagrid will serve the trio something inedible. hagrid was too busy for rockcakes! A most interesting thing. 5. Snape's eyes will glitter. They did indeed. 6. Dumbledore's eyes will twinkle. Sadly, they didn't and *nobody* predicted tears here did they? 7. Draco will sneer. Too easy. 8. Molly Weasly will call Harry "dear." Indupitably. 9. Ginny will blush. She did not, indeed Ginny has proven herself in OoP. 10. Percy will bluster. hmmmmmm 11. Snape will snap. This is in the running for the most correct of all, who would have guessed he'd be exploding jars over Harry's head! 12. And when he isn't snapping, Snape will snarl. and, He did. 13. Vernon Dursley will turn red and resemble a vegetable. Most definately. 14. Dobby will give Harry another pair of lurid socks, and Hagrid will become obsessed with another ferocious monster. One out of two, Hermione, instead, was the socks obsessed OoP character, but Hagrid did indeed become quite obsessed with breaking the ice between himself and his terrifying twin brother. 15. Harry will be injured in some way. A very unusual turn of events, the most significant *injury* to Harry was not at all physical. 16. Snape will take away house points from Gryffindor He did. Eventually try, but they had none already thanks to Draco and Umbridge. 17. Neville will forget something. Did he? 18. Neville will fail to make the correct potion, in Potions. Most likey. 19. Draco will taunt Harry. Indeed. 20. Harry will fly on his broom and love it. This is also a goodie, though his joy was shortlived. 21. Hedwig will bring something to Harry. Indeed. 22. Hermione will quote a book. Of course! 23. Harry will use his invisibility cloak. Yes he did. 24. Ron will whine. hmmm 25. Fawkes will fly and do something cool. This is the second in the running for most correct. What could be more *cool* than swallowing the AK in DD/LV battle, I ask you? 26. Sirius will still be damn sexy. Indeed more than ever! 27. Hermione will solve a mystery by going to the library. She did not, it would appear. hmmmm again. 28. Hermione will say "Honestly, Haven't you two *ever* read 'Hogwarts, A History'?", and then impart some vital piece of information which the narrative hadn't pointed out to us before. Unfortunately only one from two as apparating in Hogwarts *is* a vital piece of information, but clearly *not* a thing we we unaware of before. 29. It will not be clear why the villains had to wait till the end of term to implement their dastardly plan. Third in the running for most correct. There is much contention on this issue in OoP. 30. Harry will see something new and magical and will have to look twice to believe it. Quite true. This one may make the cut for best of show shortlist, as Tonks was indeed something new and magical, as was the phone booth and the veil. 31. Hagrid will do or say something he shouldn't - and will be instantly forgiven by the Trio. Sadly, forgiveness never came this easily for *anyone* in OoP so this one cannot float. 32. On June 22nd, HP4GU will get its first "How can we ever survive until book 6" post. It certainly was *soon* after the release that we hungered for the continuing saga but it did it happen on 22nd? 33. Filch will give out detentions. Did anyone guess *Whippings*? :) 34. The Twins will play a trick on someone. The best of all tricks this should say, Indeed there is good reason to enter this into the finalists. 35. Hermione and Ron will disagree on something. No question. They did indeed. 36. Hermione will keep a secret. Anyone? Did she? 37. Harry will keep a secret. He did! But Dumbledores secret was far more important I suppose. 38. Ron will be predict the future as he jokes. Some of us *really* hope not this time as he predicted his own death. 39. Sybill Trelawney will predict Harry's death AGAIN. Interesting. This one sunk. 40. Ron and Harry will fake their Divination homework. Ron's hilarious attempt at his exam was not a deliberate fake. What do others think of this one? 41. Dean's West Ham poster is going to be mentioned. It was not Dean's poster but Seamus' one that got the rap in OoP as I recall. 42. Sirius is going to call Snape a slimy greasy-haired git. Well, He did indeed insult Snape *extensively* as this suggests. and since this prediction also points to a large part of OoP I vote for it to be included in the most correct list. 43. Ron and Harry will serve detention. Ron did not. Harry's detention was a little more than detention also. 44. McGonagall will look sternly at Harry over the rim of her glasses. She did. 45. Colin is going to squeak: "Hiya, Harry!!" in an excited voice. Did we see Colin? 46. Hermione will say: "You CAN'T Apparate on Hogwarts grounds!" She did. 47. Ron will talk with his mouth full I am certain he must have. 48. Harry will stay at Hogwarts for Christmas This is my first pick for short list of most incorrect. This could not have been more opposite to the truth if it was intended to be. Who would have guessed, though that he'd spend Christmas at Sirius' home and Christmas Day with Lockhart! and Nevilles Grandmother. hmmmmm 49. Ron will annihilate Hermione at wizard's chess There was no wizard chess. 50. Ron will get a new hand-knitted jumper from his mother. They did indeed recieve there Jumpers, as expected. 51. Everyone will go to The Three Broomsticks for butterbeer Interestingly Hogsmeade visits were more away from TTB than ever expected. 52. McGonagall will be disgusted at someone's behaviour. Was she not? Indeed we must consider he hearty disent at the inquisitorial squad attacking Hagrid and put this in the top ten list. 53. Snape will persurcute Neville. Who else wants to oblige? 54. Parvati will still adore Professor Trelawney. I love this one for the list of the best as Parvati and Lavender's tears in OoP are predicted in this, indeed. 55. Professor Trelawney will continue to be vague. Yes she was. 56. Binns will send someone to sleep. Indeed he sent Harry to dreamland. Does anyone think this scene was important enough to make the shortlist. Goodness am I up to 57 already. Well I will post this as is and hope for some feedback on the shortlist. I guess I wasn't harsh enough at picking the worst from this group so be my guest everyone else. From ivanova at idcnet.com Tue Jul 1 05:46:15 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 00:46:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Snape is still BAD References: Message-ID: <013901c33f94$16e93dc0$54ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 66351 From: "magicroxx" > Okay, there seems to be a lot of Snape lovers out there, and I > certainly can see the point to which you feel sorry for him. I have > read the book 3 times now and I think I dislike him even more. I mean > to have gone through something so horrible, to live a life so > terrible and then to add to the misery of someone who's life is so > much worse than yours. Think about Snape in terms of Harry, what > justifications does he have then? NONE. > > Snape lived a miserable life, he had a horrible childhood with an > abusive father. I used to think the same way about kids who grow up in abusive homes. They grow up in a horrible environment, seeing and experiencing terrible things whether it's actions done to them or to the other parent. I always thought that they would be the last people to grow up and abuse their own spouse or children, but research shows that the odds that an abuser was himself or herself abused in childhood are high. There is a correlation to seeing and/or experiencing abuse in one's childhood and that same kid growing up to be an abuser. With this in mind and with what we have been shown to date about Snape's past, it is somewhat understandable why he seems to be prone to it himself. Not trying to condone his actions, but just explain them a little bit. After all, as we keep hearing, it's our choices that determine who we are, and we know that Harry has chosen to behave otherwise. As do some kids who have grown up with some sort of abuse in their house. > He was a loner at school and nobody really liked him. > (I don't think it was just because he 'existed'. I can think of a few > good reasons, one being that he called Lily a mudblood. He didn't > say "I don't want help from a girl" he said MUDBLOOD. What a horrible > thing to say!! (think about that situation and someone using the > **N** word) > I really don't think we know enough of the typical everyday relationship between James and Snape. We see one snapshot out of seven years. I don't want to turn this into another debate about the bullying, but I do want to add one thing here. This is regarding Snape using the term Mudblood. When I was twelve, I had to put up with a lot of teasing, name-calling, and ridicule at school. This was exacerbated with people trying to beat me up quite often after school after we'd gotten off the bus. I know what it's like to live with this day in and day out. I did my best to not respond to the taunts, and in the fights only did what was necessary to defend myself. One day when I was twelve, I was walking down the hall, and a girl I especially did not like started making comments. Normally I ignored this sort of thing, but that day I had had enough. She made me furious. I ended up turning around and spitting out, "Shut up, you b****!" For the record, those words shocked me as much as it did her because that was the first time I had ever used that word or sworn in general. I offer this personal story to illustrate what might have been going on with Snape a little more clearly. We know he was furious, spouting out swear words and hexes like crazy (when he wasn't choking). As is pointed out above, he might have found it even more humiliating to have a girl be the one to try to help him. My point here is, maybe he normally wouldn't have used this term that is considered to be horribly racist in the Wizarding World, but in this situation of extreme distress and in a fit of fury, it comes out. A couple other things I'd like to add, before people begin to think that I'm saying Snape was blameless in this. I do think that Snape was not afraid to hex James whenever possible, and may have even bullied James at one time. After all, he *did* run around with a bunch of Slytherins at one point, and many speculate they might have been older (Lucius). And returning briefly to my story, I say that I had never actually used the B word before. But in my mind, I did think of this girl as one. I just never had actually called her it before, either to her face or behind her back. Snape may not have normally uttered the M word, but that does not mean that in his mind (or even with the mysteriously absent Slytherin friends) he didn't think of Lily as a Mudblood. I apologize for the personal sidetrip, but I saw it as the best way of answering this portion, since this is what I think of when I read these discussions on Snape using the M word. > Harry never knew his parents and yes I think this may be better than > Snape's childhood. Snape however didn't grow up with the Dursleys. Do > you know how big a cupboard under the stairs is? Being chased up a > tree. We all know the points where Harry's life has been miserable. > Yes, he is still kool, yes he is famous. You would think though, that > we would have seen a Harry that maybe hates muggles for the way he > was treated, or some other serious downfall, but we don't. > See above. He chose not to be like Snape or like Tom Riddle. I think this choice will be crucial later on in the series, since much is made of Harry's positive emotions, especially love. > Also, its not like Snape doesn't know all this, he saw harry's > memories. Their lives were both horrible and never does Snape ever > say "Gee, I guess this kid's life isn't all peachy" Instead he clings > to his petty childhood hatred. He never seperates James from Harry > and he is completely oblivious to the way he effects people. He has a > completely WARPED sense of morality. I am sure Snape has done some > terrible things and we can only begin to imagine. > Snape did notice that Harry's life wasn't all roses. Some have even speculated that it did even affect him slightly once. Here's the section from OOP: "That last memory," said Snape. "What was it?" "I don't know," said Harry, getting wearily to his feet. He was finding it increasingly difficult to disentangle separate memories from the rush of images and sound that Snape kept calling forth. "You mean the one where my cousin tried to make me stand in the toilet?" "No," said Snape softly. (OOP US ed. p. 590) Some people speculate that the way he says No here is indicative of him having some empathy for the life that Harry has led. I myself do not know if I'm completely ready to jump on that bandwagon. I felt it had to be mentioned, though. Either way, if there was a slight bit of empathy for Harry and all from Harry's memories, it was buried when Snape found Harry in his Pensieve. I do agree, though, that Snape has extreme difficulty separating James and Harry in his mind. On the other hand, I don't think he is completely oblivious to the affect he has on people. On the contrary, I think he enjoys the feeling of power he has over others. And I, too, am wondering what atrocities Snape has committed in his past, and what made him turn? Yes, I do think he's honestly trying to atone for his sins, but he has a long way to go. > Most IMPORTANTLY though, in the webcast interview, JK says that all > the people who like Snape and Draco are scary. (well not exactly, I > am paraphrasing) BUT, she says the reason Snape never got the DADA > job was because Dumbledore thought it would bring out the worst in > him. She said, don't feel too sorry for Snape, he is definitely worth > keeping your eyes on. IIRC, she said those who were dressing up as Draco had her concerned. She thought that people were starting to like him too much, and that scared her. We aren't supposed to like him too much. As for Snape, she said that we shouldn't feel too sorry for him because of things in later books. I don't remember if this last had to do with things we *find out* in later books, which would cover what he did as a DE, or things that he *will do* in later books, which would hint at some terrible thing he has not done yet. If it is the former, I don't think I'll be too surprised because I never have labored under the illusion that he could be a DE and not have done at least one thing that was truly horrible. If it is the latter, I could be surprised because I truly think he is no longer with Voldemort. One thing that came to mind, though, is that he may have to use the Cruciatus Curse on either Harry or Dumbledore at one point. We would not be fond of Snape if he did this, but yet this could be something he might have to do so as not to blow his cover, and it does not involve outright killing. No matter what becomes of our dear old Severus Snape, I will definitely be keeping my eyes on him and watching his development with great interest. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From ivanova at idcnet.com Tue Jul 1 05:55:28 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 00:55:28 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A start on the preOoP 150+ list References: Message-ID: <013d01c33f95$606c1980$54ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 66352 From: "M.Clifford" > Pre OoP we had a 200 strong list of unsinkable predictions. Here I > have listed the first quarter of them and given my own opinion on how > they fared. > I would like to propose that we shortlist the best and worst of this > list and file it for posterity. > Anyone else in? >(snip) > Goodness am I up to 57 already. > Well I will post this as is and hope for some feedback on the > shortlist. I guess I wasn't harsh enough at picking the worst from > this group so be my guest everyone else. Here's your feedback: Keep this up! I just sent a post asking for this list to be reposted and/or uploaded somewhere, and I want to see the rest. Thanks for doing what you've done so far. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 05:55:57 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 05:55:57 -0000 Subject: OOP:getting in and getting out questions and answers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66353 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dan Feeney" wrote: > Well, if the DE had gotten rid of or otherwise prevented the guards, > official staff etc. from being at MoM, stated as likely in the FAQ, > they would certainly have rigged the phone, wouldn't they? I mean, > it's one of the entrances. And Lucius must know just about everything > about building security by now, having Fudge in his pocket... > (snicker). It's still a funny line at the time, so > this doesn't detract from the moment. Anyway, Lucius does say > Voldemort is aware of Potter's hero rescuey thing (ie Potters > compassion or whatever it is makes us do that stuff, often without > thinking... etc etc). Why didn't Voldemort just get it, using his > myriad magics? Because he was being cautious. He wasn't cautious the > first time about the prophecy, and it cost him. > > As for Luna and her function in relation to Rowling in the books - > well, perhaps a bit of a sacrificial lamb, maybe, so that Hermione > can live? Luna representing "the room", or rather, knowledge of it or > of what's in it (she thinks she knows what's in it, Luna does) - a > part that is missing from the trio, but necessary for understanding > the other magic that's mentioned in the prophecy, and is thus key. > > As for getting out of the series - how about portkeying (by hook or > crook) Voldemort to the front of the arch, and then broomsticking him > through (as he pulls Harry with him)? (don't quote me on the > broomsticking thing, okay?) How about portkeying Voldemort > into "the room"? How does one trick Voldemort? It would have to sound > very rational, very straightforward, no hint of a trick. He can't > really be forced, can he? Gotta create doubt, or great desire, in > Voldemort's mind. > > Can a person or animal be a portkey? My fiancee had a curious trheory on this matter that I thought I might share with the list. It is that some magic, of Voldemorts, created a 'time freeze'? spell and all the actual battle occurred within a single moment of time. Dumbledore and the OoP arrived at the end of it because they needed to find their way *into the spell* and not, just the MOM. He says that, the only passage way into the spell was the telephone box that, Arthur said at the beginning, was "never used" by MOM employees. At the end the atrium burst to life and, people were everywhere. This was sudden, as though a spell on the ministry had been lifted. Apparently, Fudge had seen Voldemort hy accident, because Harry's love for Sirius had overcome Voldemort, while he was in Harry, and broken his spell. Personally, I think its a pretty solid theory, but what do you think? Valky From boggles at earthlink.net Tue Jul 1 06:22:28 2003 From: boggles at earthlink.net (Jennifer Boggess Ramon) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 01:22:28 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Luna! The new Hermione?? In-Reply-To: <51B68275.5B0486F2.03BDBC3C@cs.com> References: <51B68275.5B0486F2.03BDBC3C@cs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66354 At 12:24 AM -0400 7/1/03, phoenixtears288 at cs.com wrote: > > I must admit that when Luna first came into the book, I didn't >like her. But as the book progressed, we got to learn more about >Luna's character. And by the end of the book, Luna got moved up to >the favorites. *chuckle* If you averaged Luna and Hermione, you'd get a pretty good version of me, age 15, only I was fatter. And I would have been after either Neville or Harry rather than Ron. >But, JKR can still speak herself through Hermione. Like giving us >facts about things about the war. So, let's see. JKR speaks through >Hermione by facts; Dumbledore about love and emotion and the past, >and now Luna. Hmm. Why is JKR speaking through her? Easy: Dumbledore speaks from the Heart, and about the Past. Hermione speaks from the Mind, and about the Present (except when she references _Hogwarts, A History_) Luna speaks from the Spirit, and about the Future. -- - Boggles, aka J. C. B. Ramon boggles(at)earthlink.net "It is not knowledge, but the act of learning, not possession but the act of getting there, which grants the greatest enjoyment. " - Gauss, in a Letter to Bolyai, 1808. From teeravec at fas.harvard.edu Tue Jul 1 06:33:08 2003 From: teeravec at fas.harvard.edu (Joy) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 02:33:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A start on the preOoP 150+ list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.1.0.20030701022837.03ed6f00@pop.fas.harvard.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 66355 A few quick additions: >The list. > >47. Ron will talk with his mouth full >I am certain he must have. Yep. At the beginning-of-the-year feast, when he manages to spectacularly insult Nearly Headless Nick. >49. Ron will annihilate Hermione at wizard's chess >There was no wizard chess. Only a brief mention of Harry's castle duking it out with Ron's pawn just before Snape comes calling at Grimmauld Place. >52. McGonagall will be disgusted at someone's behaviour. >Was she not? Indeed we must consider he hearty disent at the >inquisitorial squad attacking Hagrid and put this in the top ten list. Also, her disgust at the behaviour of the Gryffindor Quidditch team for attacking Malfoy. Joy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com Tue Jul 1 01:40:15 2003 From: jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com (jenn3311999) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 01:40:15 -0000 Subject: Direction to discussion on House Elves and the fairytale: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66356 "The Elves and the Shoemaker" I'm sure someone has done a comparison before- and I'd like to read it. Sorry for wasting a post! Thanks. Jennifer From phoebesophia at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 05:39:33 2003 From: phoebesophia at yahoo.com (phoebesophia) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 05:39:33 -0000 Subject: Some thoughts on Severus's attire Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66358 This hadn't occured to me until I was catching up on the postings tonight. In GoF -- the chapter in which Harry is caught in the disappearing step and drops the egg -- Severus appears wearing a grey nightshirt. Suddenly I am struck that the two times dear Severus's, um . . . lingerie, is mentioned we discover it is grey. Perhaps he simply won't wear light colors? phoebesophia (blushing at what I'm thinking) From awillia2 at gladstone.uoregon.edu Tue Jul 1 07:34:52 2003 From: awillia2 at gladstone.uoregon.edu (Aesha Williams) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 00:34:52 -0700 Subject: OoP: RE: Power hungry DADA teacher Message-ID: <014501c33fa3$d2a42de0$a5d0df80@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 66359 Meg wondered... So... if Unbridge isn't on Voldemort's side (Which is entirely possible...) then what on earth was she doing sending dementors to Privet Drive? And why didn't anyone in the ministry know they were there, as they were greatly surprised at Harry's explination during the trial that they just happened to show up on his block? Hi Meg- It was explained near the end of the book. In either the chapter where Hermione and Harry lead her into the forest, or the chapter before that, (I can't remember and have loaned my book)- but I tend to think it was the forest chapter, as why would Umbridge confess in front of so many witnesses?- anyway, she says that she sent the Dementors to Harry's residence in order to discredit him, because while the ministry (presumably Fudge) wanted so badly to show he was mad, she was the only one who actually did somtehing about it. I was wondering the same thing you did, however, about the ministry not knowing that the dementors were there... it seems like their "magic radar" should be able to pick something like that up, although the MOM didn't know that Dobby was at Privet Drive. Aesha [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Jul 1 07:44:35 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 07:44:35 -0000 Subject: Death in the Weasley family?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66360 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sleepygirl003" wrote: > > > I say: > > The Weasley's are untouchable! They can't die, they just can't! > Arthur's injury (in OoP) and Ginny's close call (in CoS) were the > closest they will come, because... because they just aren't the dying > sorts! They are all too important--except for Bill and Charlie, who > are too unimportant. Unless JKR makes some very dramatic plot > changes--changes that will completely eject HP from the Children's lit > genre, I can't bear imagining that any, ANY Weasleys will die. > > I am sure a Weasley will die, and I think it is likely that it will be more than one. And my main candidate is Ginny: It's an odd feeling I have, that Ginny won't make it till the end. Hickengruendler From logic_alley at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 06:52:04 2003 From: logic_alley at yahoo.com (logic_alley) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 06:52:04 -0000 Subject: OOP: What do you make of this name? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66361 > > Spoiler space: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rowan: > > What does anyone make of Bellatrix Lestrange's name? Bella I take to mean beautiful, and according to my dictionary, -trix is a suffix that denotes a female (eg. aviator, aviatrix), though she certainly has many tricks up her sleeve! I take Lestrange to mean "the strange, or the foreign". Anyone else? > > "rose_in_shadow" wrote: > Someone else on this list has mentioned that "Bellatrix" is also the name of a star and since she's a member of the Black family, perhaps it's a family thing? (i.e. Sirius - the dog star) >>>>> Here's a nice site about stars and constellations: http://www.astro.wisc.edu/~dolan/constellations/ Regulus is also a star. Andromeda is a galaxy of course. I don't see Narcissa, but her son Draco is also a constellation. I think you're right -- it's definitely a Black family tradition. And Sirius is the brightest star in our sky, after the sun. --- Logic Alley ------- From ElfinChildLB at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 06:57:29 2003 From: ElfinChildLB at yahoo.com (Lea) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 06:57:29 -0000 Subject: OOP: Switching Spells--NOT Lupin and James Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66362 Hello all-- Is anyone else out there thinking that Switching Spells are going to play a major role by Book 7? I don't mean the "James and Lupin switched bodies" theory, because that seems very, very far-fetched, and we do have a few proofs that it really is James who died, which I won't discuss unless I'm asked--I really do think James is dead, though. Anyway, all these mentions we've had of Switching Spells without ever really learning what they are makes me sort of suspicious. We do know a few things about them: 1. You could switch a dragon's fangs for winegums (only if you were really lucky, I bet) (GOF) 2. Neville switched his ears onto a cactus in Transfiguration class (don't remember which book) 3. Harry FORGOT THE DEFINITION of the Switching Spell during his Transfig. O.W.L. (OOP) WHAT??? Whaddaya mean he forgot the definition? I know I can't be the only one whose curiosity was piqued about this spell after that episode. And although I have no theories on what their use will be, I'm sure they'll be important. Any ideas, anyone? ~Lea~ From lists at dnbaccounting.co.uk Tue Jul 1 07:04:29 2003 From: lists at dnbaccounting.co.uk (Beth Currie) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 08:04:29 +0100 Subject: OOP: some questions - Molly/Lupin/Dumbledore - SPOILERS In-Reply-To: <1057035507.8017.13048.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000501c33f9f$046f9f80$6b00a8c0@bethcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 66363 S P O I L E R S P A C E I'm now on my second read and happy to say I'm enjoying it much more this time round at a more leisurely pace. I have a couple of questions I'd love to hear opinions on: 1) Molly & Lupin. Does anyone else think there is some sort of history/relationship going on here? When Molly sees the boggart, she ends up crying in Lupin's arms; also when Percy sends back his Christmas jumper we are told by the twins that Lupin is comforting her. I think Molly is older than him so I doubt they are old flames or anything, but these bits in the book did jump out at me. Any thoughts? 2) What is Dumbledore on about with that silver thing in his office when he says "in essence divided"? I didn't get this first time around and I'm no wiser this time! Please help as it is bugging me!! Also on my second read I found the scene where Harry says goodbye to Sirius after Christmas very poignant, knowing what happens later. When Sirius gave him a hug I found tears in my eyes. Beth, still missing Sirius From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 08:07:00 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 08:07:00 -0000 Subject: OOP: Switching Spells--NOT Lupin and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66364 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lea" wrote: > Hello all-- > > Is anyone else out there thinking that Switching Spells are going to > play a major role by Book 7? > > 1. You could switch a dragon's fangs for winegums (only if you were really lucky, I bet) (GOF) > 2. Neville switched his ears onto a cactus in Transfiguration class (don't remember which book) > 3. Harry FORGOT THE DEFINITION of the Switching Spell during his > Transfig. O.W.L. (OOP) > > WHAT??? Whaddaya mean he forgot the definition? I know I can't be > the only one whose curiosity was piqued about this spell after that > episode. And although I have no theories on what their use will be, > I'm sure they'll be important. > > Any ideas, anyone? > > ~Lea~ I am piqued, now. I am guilty of missing all references to the switching spell in the books. -furious blushing- Since you've brought it to my attention I agree 105% that Harry *forgetting* the definition of switching spell is a significant clue. Harry apparently hasn't been paying attention to something he should have and I am sure if we handed these clues on a scrap of paper to Hermione she would be back in five with the answer. As for me, I am going to apply switching spells to every significant inamate object in the entire series till I come up with one. Trial and error is tedious but its the best I can offer! watching this thread from Herein Valky From helen at odegard.com Tue Jul 1 08:12:37 2003 From: helen at odegard.com (Helen R. Granberry) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 01:12:37 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Switching Spells--NOT Lupin and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000901c33fa8$896f8a70$6401a8c0@helenw1> No: HPFGUIDX 66365 >I am piqued, now. I am guilty of missing all references to the switching spell in the books. -furious blushing- Since you've brought it to my attention I agree 105% that Harry *forgetting* the definition of switching spell is a significant clue. Harry apparently hasn't been paying attention to something he should have and I am sure if we handed these clues on a scrap of paper to Hermione she would be back in five with the answer. As for me, I am going to apply switching spells to every significant inamate object in the entire series till I come up with one. Trial and error is tedious but its the best I can offer! watching this thread from Herein Valky Me: All of the references to Switching Spells seem to have to do with switching body parts. There are gobs of references to Harry having his mother's eyes... what if he *literally* has his mothers eyes? Kinda gross, but... there you go. ;) Helen (who strongly doubts the 'James is really Lupin' theory, but still thinks Switching Spells have to be important) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Tue Jul 1 08:13:07 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 08:13:07 -0000 Subject: The next two. . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66366 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mslitz" wrote: > What do you think will happen? > > I have a feeling that Dumbledore will die at the end of book 7. > > I am definately not a Seer but I have a gut feeling. I also feel > that Voldemort will die by the hands of Harry and Draco will rise to > fill his place as the dark lord. Just some thoughts. If you like > these ideas, I have many more. > I see Dumbledore possibly dying in book 6, and then having his portrait on the new headmasters wall, next to all the other portraits we saw in OoP, actually. This would allow for him to effectively be removed from the story, while still being able to give advice, and the portraits of all the headmasters just seemed like a bit of suble foreshadowing to me... --Arcum From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 08:23:44 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 08:23:44 -0000 Subject: OOP: Switching Spells--NOT Lupin and James In-Reply-To: <000901c33fa8$896f8a70$6401a8c0@helenw1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66367 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Helen R. Granberry" wrote: > > > >I am piqued, now. I am guilty of missing all references to the > switching spell in the books. -furious blushing- > Since you've brought it to my attention I agree 105% that Harry > *forgetting* the definition of switching spell is a significant clue. > Harry apparently hasn't been paying attention to something he should > have and I am sure if we handed these clues on a scrap of paper to > Hermione she would be back in five with the answer. > As for me, I am going to apply switching spells to every significant > inamate object in the entire series till I come up with one. > Trial and error is tedious but its the best I can offer! > > watching this thread from Herein > Valky > > > Me: All of the references to Switching Spells seem to have to do with > switching body parts. There are gobs of references to Harry having his > mother's eyes... what if he *literally* has his mothers eyes? Kinda > gross, but... there you go. ;) > > Helen > > (who strongly doubts the 'James is really Lupin' theory, but still > thinks Switching Spells have to be important) > > ARRGGGGH! How uncannily true! I was thinking along the lines of scar but that can't be a fake. What if 'the eyes have it!' I dont really know if I can contemplate that, its a little bit grotesque in visualised perspective. Thanks for the body parts clue thaough that narrows down my trial and error list significantly. Valky > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary > material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to > HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, > and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the > Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Tue Jul 1 08:34:37 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 08:34:37 -0000 Subject: OOP - Greasy haired odd kids In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66368 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > Fitz: > > > > Snape can bottle glory, brew fame, put a stopper in death, blah, > blah, blah. > > You're telling me he can't come up with a decent shampoo??? > > I would believe that Snape's self-esteem is so low that he doesn't > bother to take care of his appearance or that he is such a lab rat > that he forgets to wash. (Were someone to flip him upside-down now, > I'd bet five galleons his tighty-whiteys are still gray) > > But I can't believe that if he truly wanted to do something about > his hair, he couldn't. I picture it more as a typical Snape day involving him getting up, shampooing, working on all the potion projects he had going the previous night, and, by the time he gets through a class or two, having all the fumes from the potions settle on his hair and make it all greasy again. He may even have given up on his hair at this point, if he was fighting that sort of losing battle. Though I'm suprised Gilderoy never tried to sell him on his line of shampoos and conditioners... :) --Arcum From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Tue Jul 1 08:31:53 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 1 Jul 2003 08:31:53 -0000 Subject: File - HPfGU.announcement-Nimbus.htm Message-ID: <1057048314.4613969.10218.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66369 An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pen at pensnest.co.uk Tue Jul 1 09:00:39 2003 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:00:39 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and the Grangers (some OOP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7CCFB7B9-ABA2-11D7-B022-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 66370 On Monday, Jun 30, 2003, at 18:59 Europe/London, Scott wrote: > I don't pretend to know much about the psyche of a typical British > Boarding school child, but I find it odd that they never seem to get > homesick (especially Hermione and other muggle-borns and esp. during > the first year or two). I know Harry isn't going to miss the > Dursley's but for someone like Hermione, coming from what one hopes > is a loving and supportive household and going into a whole new > world (literally), this can't be that easy. And at eleven? I don't > think I would've felt comfortable departing from my family at this > age; can anyone who lived in a boarding school speak of their own > experiences? > I went to boarding school just before I turned ten - this was unusual, at my school people mostly started boarding in the first year of senior school (ie eleven), but there were odd family circumstances at work. In my experience, homesickness was a rare thing. I didn't feel homesick at all, though there are probably good reasons for that; but I rarely noticed anyone suffering particular pangs. There was, in my seven-and-a-bit years as a boarder, one girl who was so unhappy she ran away. Mostly, people were delighted to be going home for the holidays, but by no means sorry to get back to school. One or two girls resented being at boarding school, but that tended to be because of family issues, not because of the school itself. It's not so difficult to get used to boarding school. I enjoyed it. It does foster a certain self-reliance, as you cannot go to your parents for, eg, help with homework, or money to buy friends birthday presents, etc, or for chauffeur/escort to scarily new places either! (I remember being extremely scornful, when I went to a university interview and stayed the night in the college, of a girl in the next room who seemed to spend most of the night sobbing. She had never been away from home before, and I thought her pitiful.) From that point of view I suppose it is reasonable that Harry, Ron and Hermione tend to want to deal with things themselves. Of course, Harry is more independent because he has never had adult support; Hermione seems to want to go to the staff more often, which suggests to me that she does have supportive parents and is used to being able to go to them with problems. I think it is probably easier to adapt to boarding school if you have previously experienced a loving, secure family environment than if you have not. Back to boarding school: I seem to recall that we had (at least in the first couple of years) a timetabled weekly session for writing home - because otherwise, let's face it, few of us would have bothered, as there is usually something more interesting to do, when you are living with your friends and contemporaries rather than with your parents. Boarding school does also create very strong friendships - when you share a room with someone (I'm thinking of our senior years, when we had only two to a dorm) you can achieve a degree of closeness which I imagine would be harder on a days-only level. However, the idea that one can stay at school for Christmas is, as far as I know, an invention of JKR's. Students with family abroad usually had somewhere to go for the half-term breaks, though it was possible for them to stay in the boarding house if necessary - but *nobody* stayed there during the Christmas or Easter holidays. Quite a lot of us were boarding because we had parents in the forces, posted abroad, and not everyone went to their parents for Easter, particularly if the parents were in the Far East, but everyone went home for Christmas as well as the summer. In practice, we also had opportunities to go away for short periods during the terms - as well as half-term holidays (a long weekend) we were allowed to go away for a weekend to an approved place, eg I usually spent one weekend in every term with my aunt's family. The completely cloistered life at Hogwarts is, ahem, extreme, and in the literary tradition of those Chalet School and St Clare's books where everything interesting happens at school, so nobody wants to be anywhere else. Any questions? Pen From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 09:10:09 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 09:10:09 -0000 Subject: OOP: Dementors (was : Re: OOP: Petunia and Azkaban) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66371 > > Thet dementors were allready guarding Azkaban in the first war > > for Petunia knows they do and she heared James tell this Lilly so > > it could only be possibly while the first war. > > > > Yous Finchen Ah yes, right, I forgot about that. > But we don't actually know that it is James and Lily Petunia is > referring to when she says "that awful boy" and "her." She never > says their names, Harry only assumes she is speaking of his > parents. > > KathyK Could be that. Could also be that the Dementors were created during the first war. I can picture James being so excited by the news of their creation (it would have been quite a shock IMO, the creation of something so monstruous) that he would forget to be cautious and discuss it with Lily within earshot of a Muggle (Petunia). Oh, and maybe they weren't created, maybe they were just recruited by the MoM during the first war, with the promise of dozens of souls to suck on forever. But I seem to remember that someone said that the Dementors are never mentioned in Fantastic Beasts, neither as beasts, beings nor spirits, which would support the theory of them having been created. Also the way they are talked about in the books seems a bit stange to me : the Dementors are the guardians of Azkaban. But guarding Azkaban is their job, no more. Or is it ? Is it in fact their very reason to exist, the only thing they've been created to do ? By the way, does someone know if Azkaban existed before the first war ? I guess it did, but does it say so anywhere in canon ? Huh, I guess I'm getting a bit delirious :-) Doriane From dark30 at vcn.bc.ca Tue Jul 1 09:15:13 2003 From: dark30 at vcn.bc.ca (Dan Feeney) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 09:15:13 -0000 Subject: OOP:getting in and getting out questions and answers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66372 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > My fiancee had a curious trheory on this matter that I thought I > might share with the list. > It is that some magic, of Voldemorts, created a 'time freeze'? spell > and all the actual battle occurred within a single moment of time. > Dumbledore and the OoP arrived at the end of it because they needed > to find their way *into the spell* and not, just the MOM. > He says that, the only passage way into the spell was the telephone > box that, Arthur said at the beginning, was "never used" by MOM > employees. > At the end the atrium burst to life and, people were everywhere. This > was sudden, as though a spell on the ministry had been lifted. > > Apparently, Fudge had seen Voldemort hy accident, because Harry's > love for Sirius had overcome Voldemort, while he was in Harry, and > broken his spell. Personally, I think its a pretty solid theory, but > what do you think? > > Valky This is good, yes. I was thinking about that myself, and the time room certainly seemed to be loopy, I mean looping - something about a cabinet of time turners falling down and setting itself up again, and of course the adult/baby head thing. It was distinctly unsettling that the place was ostensibly deserted - could it be Fudge's apparent incompetance alone - not even a night shift guard? Why would the phonebooth be working at that time at all, if there was nothing going on inside? etc. etc. In other words, I like the theory. I'm sure some on the list will have detaily objections.... From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com Tue Jul 1 08:33:33 2003 From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 08:33:33 -0000 Subject: OOP: Switching Spells--NOT Lupin and James In-Reply-To: <000901c33fa8$896f8a70$6401a8c0@helenw1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66373 > > >I am piqued, now. I am guilty of missing all references to the > switching spell in the books. -furious blushing- > All of the references to Switching Spells seem to have to do with > switching body parts. of course! I missed this completely *slaps head with hand and thinks....* PP silver hand that replaced the one he sacrificed for Voldy The hand of destiny in Knockturn Alley Dumbledore telling Harry he will be grateful that he saved PP's life one day as PP will owe him a debt the clincher....the prophesy...die at the HAND of the other I'm betting on some hand switching, what do you think? Jo who is seeing loads more thanks to this site From buffyeton at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 09:15:46 2003 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 09:15:46 -0000 Subject: OoP: Will Draco be back at Hogwarts next year??? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66374 Will Lucius Malfoy want to send his son back to a school run by the head of the Order of the Pheonix? Someone who is responsible for sending him to Azkaban and is fighting against the Dark Lord?? Tamara From amanda.brock at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 1 08:47:32 2003 From: amanda.brock at ntlworld.com (amanda brock) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 08:47:32 -0000 Subject: Death in the Weasley family?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66375 Sleepygirl1003: > > The Weasley's are untouchable! They can't die, they just can't! > Hickengruendler: > I am sure a Weasley will die, and I think it is likely that it will > be more than one. And my main candidate is Ginny: It's an odd feeling > I have, that Ginny won't make it till the end. Me too I think that perhaps a few of them, say Ginny and Ron, might get taken over unwillingly by Volermort as Ron is very suseptable to being famous and popular etc that is a weekness in my eyes Amanda From amanda.brock at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 1 09:00:03 2003 From: amanda.brock at ntlworld.com (amanda brock) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 09:00:03 -0000 Subject: The next two. . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66376 "mslitz" wrote: > > What do you think will happen? > > > > I have a feeling that Dumbledore will die at the end of book 7. > > Arcum; > I see Dumbledore possibly dying in book 6, and then having his > portrait on the new headmasters wall, next to all the other portraits > we saw in OoP, actually. This would allow for him to effectively be > removed from the story, while still being able to give advice, and the > portraits of all the headmasters just seemed like a bit of suble > foreshadowing to me... > I am afraid that I agree with the first one and that book 7 will be the one that Dumbledore dies in after all he is the only one voldemort fears. JKR won't let anyone sie in book 6 will she? Wasn't it book 6 that was going to be shorter than 4 and 5 and didn't she also say that book 7 would be the longest. I can't wait to see! Amanda Amanda From atie_2209 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 09:05:47 2003 From: atie_2209 at yahoo.com (yati hashim) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 02:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: James, headboy without having been prefect? In-Reply-To: <94.3a02c3ef.2c32636e@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030701090547.87446.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66377 Varana: > > Hagrid told Harry that his parents had been > headboy and headgirl. > > Now, things might be different at Hogwarts, but at > every other school > > I've been to you have to be prefect in order to > become headboy/girl. > > > > But in OOP, Harry finds out that James wasn't a > prefect. > > > > so how does this all add up? > > Melissa: Really? According to a friend of mine its not that > uncommon to be a Head > without having been Prefect. > > > I believe that James was a Headboy during his final year in Hogwarts. As Sirius said in OoP, James grew out of his 'behaviour' as he grew older. Maybe his not a prefect in his fifth year but he may be a prefect during his sixth year in Hogwarts. Is it possible? __________________________________ From CareALotsClouds at aol.com Tue Jul 1 09:40:06 2003 From: CareALotsClouds at aol.com (CareALotsClouds at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 05:40:06 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: That "Oh my gosh" moment. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66378 In a message dated 30/06/03 23:37:34 GMT Daylight Time, sandyluppino at comcast.net writes: > > >Martin wrote: > > > > Obligatory spoiler space. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You > > > > mean > > > > you > > > > haven't > > > > finished > > > > the > > > > book > > > > yet? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There were several times I spoke out loud to the characters > trying > > >to > > > > stop them doing something or getting them to do something or > just > > > > exclaimed aloud in surprise. I call these my "Oh my gosh" > moments. > > > > Here are mine: > > > > > > > > 1) Harry casting a Lumos spell without his wand in his hand - I > > > > went "Mmmm, you've not done that before have ye laddie?" in a > kind > > >of > > > > gruff Mad-Eye sort of way. > > > > > > > > 2) Petunia blurting out that Dementors guarded Azkaban - my jaw > hit > > > > the desk and I said aloud "good God, Petunia!" > > > > > > > > 3) The Black family tree tapestry - so many names, so much > > > > information, I just went burbleburbleburble... with information > > > > overload. > > > > > > > > 4) Umbridge's speech at the welcome feast - I said to her - > "What? > > > > WHAT? Sit down you silly woman, you haven't got a clue how > things > > >are > > > > done round here." (ha ha little did I then know...) > > > > > > > > 5) Ron sticking his oar in about Quidditch when Cho was > chatting up > > > > Harry - "Ron. Just. Shut. Up!" > > > > > > > > 6) When Umbridge tortured Harry with the evil quill - my > reaction > > > > was "Oh God, you sick, twisted, nasty old hag. I hope you get > > >what's > > > > coming to you." > > > > > > > > 7) Snapes memories of an abused childhood - I said "OH, my. Oh, > you > > > > poor man." (put down book for a minute to deal with lump in > throat). > > > > > > > > 8) Dumbeldore's exit from his office with Fawkes - "You flash > > > > bastard!" > > > > > > > > 9) Luna generally in most of her scenes - "Mmmmm, you're a bit > > >spooky > > > > you are. I think there's more to you than meets the eye my > girl." > > > > > > > > 10) When the Inquisitor squad was set up - "Urgh. No. Sick. > Nasty. > > > > Stop it you evil cow." > > > > > > > > 11) Fred and George's exit - I went "Yes! Yes! YES! Ha, stick > that > > >in > > > > your pipe and smoke it Umbridge!" > > > > > > > > 12) Harry standing listening to the whispering voices beyond the > > > > veil - I sat bolt upright and said "No, Harry, do NOT go in > there. > > > > Absolutely no way, get away from there!" > > > > > > > > 13) As the DEs appeared in the prophecy room and the likelehood > of > > >a > > > > fight loomed up - "Rowling you cow, you can kill any of them > can't > > > > you?" ;) > > > > > > > > 14) Hermione being hurt in the final fight - "NO, Hermione, > don't > > >you > > > > die, don't you dare die." (little tear here). > > > > > > > > 15) Sirius' death - "Whaaaa? No, surely no. Noooooooo....!" > > > > > > > > 16) Dumbeldore in action against Tom - "Woah! Step aside, > serious > > > > wizard coming through!" > > > > > > > > 17) Harry smashing up Dumbeldore's office - "Go on kid, go for > it, > > > > get all that out of your system" (with tears down my face). > > > > > > > > 18) The prophecy - "Ummm, now what did that mean? > Erm...exactly?" > > > > > 19) When Harry tried to cast "Crucio!" on Bellatrix. I said "oh > > >no!" out loud! As much as she deserved it, it was shocking to see > > >Harry be ruthless (finally) against the enemy... an UNFORGIVABLE > > >curse! I was afraid he might get sent to Azkaban for attempting > it! > > > > 20. "Potter, I will assist you to become an Auror if it is the last > thing I > > do! If I have to coach you nightly I will make sure you achieve the > required > > results!" -- This is only one of the examples where Prof. > McGonagall was > > just *so* rocking my socks that I grinned. > > > > 21."You're less like your father than I thought. [...] The risk > would've > > been what made if fun for James." -- That was *not* fair of Sirius. > I felt > > fairly let down and disgusted by that statement, no matter what > confusion he > > might have about what Harry is to him. > > > > 22. Hermione saying Voldemort's name for the first time in Chapter > 15. -- > > Good girl! I was so proud of her. :) > > > > 23. It was almost to the point of hyperness when the Quibbler > article came > > out, and Harry was getting mail and students and teachers were > > congratulating him (best they could, anyway, as they were under > that > > monstrous decree). > > > > 24. Chapter 26 - "Well, Potter... that was certainly an > improvement..." -- > > that was pure amazement. "Uh. Was that almost praise from Snape?" I > think I > > actually read that part twice. > > > > 25. Chapter 21 - I was a little confused about the entire > > Harry-being-the-snake thing at first, but then he woke up and said > that Mr. > > Weasley had been injured gravely, and I actually had no words. And > don't > > even get me started on the tears of relief when we found out Arthur > would be > > okay... > > > > I had the SAME reactions to all these ... > > My #26. When the DEs are fighting Neville and Harry in the 'veil' > room and Sirius, Lupin, Mad-Eye, Tonks and Kinsgley rush into the > room! I screamed 'YAHOO' at the top of my lungs ... even though it > was 2:00 am and everyone in my house was asleep .... > > #27 When Harry walked into the drawing room in the chapter 'The Woes Of Mrs Weasley' and JK wrote 'There was Ron unmistakenly dead'. I dropped the book. 'NOT RON'! Even though I dont like Ron. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From loupsdeguerre at aol.com Tue Jul 1 09:18:43 2003 From: loupsdeguerre at aol.com (vesania_aeterno) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 09:18:43 -0000 Subject: OOP-Harry & Unforgivables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66379 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" wrote: > S > P > A > C > E > > > > > Some of us are upset that Harry attempted the Crucio spell. . . Has > it hit anyone else that, due to the prophecy, Harry is going to have > to -- HAVE to, no choice in the matter -- use Avada Kedavra? > > And, how do you learn how to do that? How do yolu practice? > > Bohcoo Well, Harry's not only used the Cruciatus Curse but thought about using it before (on Snape). He did manage to cast it without any practice and though it didn't work well (though, really, it worked admirably for a first try) it did work. The difference is that if Avada Kedavra worked *at all* it'd have done its function and killed Voldemort (or whoever Harry is aiming it at). I fully expect Harry will use the curse, though not necessarily on Voldemort (as that might backfire). Harry's natural (or perhaps taught by the Dursleys) tendencies are showing through and with the loss of his idealisation of the his father and the death of Sirius he had very little reason left to be a 'good kid' and follow the rules (or social conventions). Not that I think he's going to be using the curse left and right but I don't think he'd have a moral problem doing it. Remember, he only saved Pettigrew because Pettigrew said that his father (James) wouldn't have let him (Peter) be killed. That reasoning? Not going to fly anymore. Harry's seen what his father is capable of doing out of mere boredom. Sirius or Dumbledore might have been able to reason him but, of course, Sirius is dead and Dumbledore has been shown to be quite capable of screwing up. Harry doesn't trust Dumbledore half as much anymore and therefore Dumbledore has lost a lot of his hold on him. However, I don't think he'd necessary *have* to use Avada Kedavra. After all, he might want Voldemort to suffer first. - Andrea. From alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 10:16:23 2003 From: alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com (Alon van Dam) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 10:16:23 -0000 Subject: OOP: some questions - Molly/Lupin/Dumbledore - SPOILERS In-Reply-To: <000501c33f9f$046f9f80$6b00a8c0@bethcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66380 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Beth Currie" wrote: > I'm now on my second read and happy to say I'm enjoying it much more > this time round at a more leisurely pace. I have a couple of questions > I'd love to hear opinions on: > > 1) Molly & Lupin. Does anyone else think there is some sort of > history/relationship going on here? When Molly sees the boggart, she > ends up crying in Lupin's arms; also when Percy sends back his Christmas > jumper we are told by the twins that Lupin is comforting her. I think > Molly is older than him so I doubt they are old flames or anything, but > these bits in the book did jump out at me. Any thoughts? Me: Well, we've seen a great number of times in both PoA and OOP that Lupin is just great at comforting people and that he goes out of his way to do so. He makes everyone feel better in PoA, most notably Harry and Neville, and continues to do so in OOP: He is the one who manages to quasi-comfort Harry after the "Worst Memory"-pensieve scene (not Sirius). He also goes over to comfort the Werewolf in St. Mungo's and, obviously, comforts Molly. JKR has said many times that Lupin is the perfect teacher, the teacher everyone would like to have had, and I see him in this light: Just a really nice guy who's great as a shoulder to cry on. Seeing as Molly and Arthur got together in Hogwarts (as she states in GoF), I /sincerely/ doubt anything transpired between them... Come to think of it, we don't know /anything/ about any romances that MWP might've had, do we? And that while we get reminded time and again how handsome Sirius was... > 2) What is Dumbledore on about with that silver thing in his office > when he says "in essence divided"? I didn't get this first time around > and I'm no wiser this time! Please help as it is bugging me!! Me: I think that's when he realises that Harry and LV share a mental link which can go both ways and decides that Harry should study Occlumency. He had a feeling about it before that (which is why he refrained from looking at Harry throughout the book) but decides to let Harry study Occlumency only after the Arthur-incident. He figures that two minds can be inhabiting the same spot at the same time. I thought that's what he meant, but I'm not wholly conclusive on the matter. > Also on my second read I found the scene where Harry says goodbye to > Sirius after Christmas very poignant, knowing what happens later. When > Sirius gave him a hug I found tears in my eyes. Me: I'm now also on my second read, and I also found the goodbye quite poignant. I did not have tears in my eyes, but I was rather saddened by it, and found myself shouting at the book for Harry to say something nice, something sweet, something warning, anything... Also, I found myself reading with the ludicrous wish that Harry won't forget the package this time round. ;) > Beth, still missing Sirius Alon, missing him as well, and not /believing/ that Harry broke the last present Sirius gave him. From buffyeton at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 10:20:34 2003 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 10:20:34 -0000 Subject: OOP-Harry & Unforgivables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66381 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vesania_aeterno" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" wrote: > > S > > P > > A > > C > > E > > > > > > > > > > Some of us are upset that Harry attempted the Crucio spell. . . Has > > it hit anyone else that, due to the prophecy, Harry is going to > have > > to -- HAVE to, no choice in the matter -- use Avada Kedavra? > > > > And, how do you learn how to do that? How do yolu practice? > > > > Bohcoo > > Well, Harry's not only used the Cruciatus Curse but thought about > using it before (on Snape). He did manage to cast it without any > practice and though it didn't work well (though, really, it worked > admirably for a first try) it did work. The difference is that if > Avada Kedavra worked *at all* it'd have done its function and killed > Voldemort (or whoever Harry is aiming it at). > > I fully expect Harry will use the curse, though not necessarily on > Voldemort (as that might backfire). Harry's natural (or perhaps > taught by the Dursleys) tendencies are showing through and with the > loss of his idealisation of the his father and the death of Sirius he > had very little reason left to be a 'good kid' and follow the rules > (or social conventions). Not that I think he's going to be using the > curse left and right but I don't think he'd have a moral problem > doing it. Remember, he only saved Pettigrew because Pettigrew said > that his father (James) wouldn't have let him (Peter) be killed. That > reasoning? Not going to fly anymore. Harry's seen what his father is > capable of doing out of mere boredom. > > Sirius or Dumbledore might have been able to reason him but, of > course, Sirius is dead and Dumbledore has been shown to be quite > capable of screwing up. Harry doesn't trust Dumbledore half as much > anymore and therefore Dumbledore has lost a lot of his hold on him. > > However, I don't think he'd necessary *have* to use Avada Kedavra. > After all, he might want Voldemort to suffer first. > > - Andrea. Aren't there any other ways to kill Voldemort? Like chopping off his head or something? Or does everything have to be done magically? Tamara From alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 10:25:43 2003 From: alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com (Alon van Dam) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 10:25:43 -0000 Subject: OOP: Sirius, Phineas, Portraits Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66382 Dear all, Here's a new pet theory of mine that could have us see Sirius again in the future. Don't pin me down on this, but it's a possibility, maybe? How about if someone drew a magical portrait of him at some point during his life, and his identity is retained in it? We know that all magical pictures/photographs have some form of consciousness, but it seems that only fine drawings have actual personalities. The pictures of the Headmasters is of course the best example, but Sirius' mother also retains her old personality. Now, we also know that these pictures can learn things and not just stay with their old memories: Phineas clearly knew about Sirius, for example. Now, I know that this would only be a bland copy, and that it would never happen, but what would be a better birthday-gift for Harry from Dumbledore (or a better inheritance for Harry from Sirius) than a portrait of Sirius who Harry can turn to for advice and the like? Your thoughts? Alon Who would have personally contacted Sirius as follows if he didn't have the mirror: 1) Ask a portrait (Sir Cardogan, The Fat Lady, Violet, etc.) to either walk over to the Headmaster's office or some other location where a Headmaster's painting is and *beg* Phineas for a message: Sure, he might not like to comply, but some of the other Headmasters might employ peer pressure 2) Even better: Ask a ghost (Sir Nick or, better yet, Myrtle) to glide to the Headmaster's office and do the same... From alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 10:28:35 2003 From: alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com (Alon van Dam) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 10:28:35 -0000 Subject: OOP-Harry & Unforgivables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66383 Spoilers for EVERYBODY! > > However, I don't think he'd necessary *have* to use Avada Kedavra. > > After all, he might want Voldemort to suffer first. > > > > - Andrea. > > Aren't there any other ways to kill Voldemort? Like chopping off his > head or something? Or does everything have to be done magically? > > Tamara How about yanking him through a certain veil we've all grown to know and fear? If it's good enough for Sirius, it's certainly good enough for LV, no? Alon From alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 10:30:46 2003 From: alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com (Alon van Dam) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 10:30:46 -0000 Subject: OoP: Will Draco be back at Hogwarts next year??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66384 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tamara" wrote: > Will Lucius Malfoy want to send his son back to a school run by the > head of the Order of the Pheonix? Someone who is responsible for > sending him to Azkaban and is fighting against the Dark Lord?? > > Tamara Of course he will. The DE's have shown that the best weapon on their side is espionage and they'll be darned if they won't use it! As long as DD believes that everyone is redeemable, even though they have dark families, and will continue to see Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle and Nott as just pupils instead of the next-generation Death Eaters, I'd say that Lucius would be quite pleased to send Draco there, as would LV be. Alon From alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 10:35:01 2003 From: alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com (Alon van Dam) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 10:35:01 -0000 Subject: The next two. . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66385 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amanda brock" wrote: > "mslitz" wrote: > > > What do you think will happen? > > > > > > I have a feeling that Dumbledore will die at the end of book 7. > > > > > Arcum; > > > I see Dumbledore possibly dying in book 6, and then having his > > portrait on the new headmasters wall, next to all the other > portraits > > we saw in OoP, actually. This would allow for him to effectively be > > removed from the story, while still being able to give advice, and > the > > portraits of all the headmasters just seemed like a bit of suble > > foreshadowing to me... > > > > > I am afraid that I agree with the first one and that book 7 will be > the one that Dumbledore dies in after all he is the only one > voldemort fears. > > JKR won't let anyone sie in book 6 will she? > > Wasn't it book 6 that was going to be shorter than 4 and 5 and didn't > she also say that book 7 would be the longest. I can't wait to see! > > Amanda I throw in my support with those who say he'll die in Book 6: Harry needs to do the end by himself. As long as Dumbledore is around, Harry really has nothing much to fear. He's like Gandalf in LotR, Aslan in Narnia, Lord Asriel(-ish) in HDM, Moiraine in WoT, etc. If he won't die in Book 6, he'll either die early on in Book 7 or be incapacitated (or distracted) for the final encounter and denouement. Harry has to stand on his own and do the 'fight' by himself. Maybe a bit like the end of PS/SS: Ron and Hermione may come a very long way and be enormously intstrumental to the end going well, but the end is Harry's and Harry's alone, methinks. Alon, who doesn't subscribe to the theory of a LotR-ending. From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 1 10:43:31 2003 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 11:43:31 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Houses and Percy References: Message-ID: <3F0165D3.9080402@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66386 scaryfairymary wrote: > >> Calimora wrote: > > > > << Slytherin house doesn't seem to gather all of ambitious people > >> > > > > I've always felt that Slytherin House accumulates not so much the > > ambitious as the unscrupulous, those who aren't picky about what > > means they use to achieve their ends, even if their ends are > > un-ambitious things like "obey Draco". > > > I always wondered why Percy was not sorted into Slytherin. He > certainly has the ambition and the will to do pretty much anything > for power. I never liked Percy (as my many posts on the 'Percy is > evil' issue many moons ago can verify :) ) and I see his behaviour > towards his family in OOP as vinidication of my position. I am not > seeking to reopen the Percy debate, merely trying to ascertain why > he was put in Gryffindor. He is not brave in the slightest, he only > seems to want to be the favour of whoever is seen to have the most > authority at any given time, McGonnagal and Dumbledore, then Crouch > sr, now Fudge. It will be interesting to see if he changes colours > again in the next book when it seems DD will once again be the 'main > man'. In many ways he reminds me of Pettigrew > > > -Mary I think its plain that Slytherins will use *any* means to achieve their ambition, whereas Gryffs just won't be that ruthless; their compassion and ethics won't allow them. So Percy might be out on a limb, but he won't go over to the dark side completely. However, that does give him leeway to behave like Fudge and Crouch Snr, whom he has/had great respect for, so the actal result could be just as bad............ ugh, not looking forward to reading *that* part in book six, but expecting it just the same. digger From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 11:01:43 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 11:01:43 -0000 Subject: What was gained in OoP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66387 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phanbu" wrote: > * > * > * > * > * > * SPOILER SPACE > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > How ironic would it be if the greatest dark wizard in > the last century met his ultimate demise at the hands > of a boggart, because he couln't think of anything > laughable after so many years of enducing terror. Or at the hands of a Dementor, because he couldn't summon any happy enough thoughts to produce a Patronus. And having one's soul sucked by a Dementor is supposed to be worse than death, right ? Would be definitely horribly ironic if Voldemort met a fate worse than death at the hands of his natural allies... But it won't happen, since unfortunately Harry is supposed to kill him. But hey, maybe Harry could find a way to send a Dementor after Voldy ? Doriane From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 11:07:07 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 11:07:07 -0000 Subject: OOP _ Who Knows? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66388 s p o i l e r fran : Addtiontal Thought: Or DD kept her there to protect the prophecy (protecting her) since the person who overheard in HH knew that she and DD knew the full prophecy! laura : now strike... but trelawny had no memory of making the prediction just after Harry's divination exam in Azkaban...wouldn't that suggest that she would have no memory of her first prediction? me : maybe DD was trying to prevent V from using her to go and get the prophecy in the MoM ? She gave the prophecy, so she could go and get it. And I don't think she's anywhere strong enough to resist V's power. Doriane From nevilles_mimbulus_mimbletonia at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 10:45:07 2003 From: nevilles_mimbulus_mimbletonia at yahoo.com (Mimbulus Mimbletonia) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 10:45:07 -0000 Subject: OOP SPOILER - Dumbledore to Harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66389 Why do I get the feeling that Dumbledore is hiding stuff still from Harry? At the start of the book (more or less), when they are in the kitchen at the Order's HQ, Lupin says that Dumbledore wants Harry to know the basics, and it would be best for him to hear stuff from them than from other people and get a different version of things. Could it be that they want Harry to know a specific version because they know all about Voldemort tapping into Harry's thoughts? And then, they chose what information they can (or want to) leak to Voldemort and his DE's. Also, they keep talking about a 'weapon', and that prediction doesn't seem like much of a weapon to me. Could it be that the members of the Order want Harry to think of a weapon because they want to throw Voldemort off course? Also, sure, the prediction is in the Department of Mysteries in the Ministry of Magic, and throughout the year Harry has been dreaming that he goes through the corridors there, but it was a trap, wasn't it? Who cares about the prediction? What if there were more predictions there that concerned Voldemort and Harry and they picked that one? And just because Dumbledore shows Trelawney in his Pensieve to Harry, doesn't mean that he couldn't have faked the prediction (that sort of reminds me of when Harry asked him what he saw in the Mirror of Erised and Dumbledore replied that he sees himself getting socks for Christmas). The Order has people spying on Voldemort (Snape, and others, perhaps?), so it is very likely that there are people spying on the Order for Voldemort (and both sides are spying on the ministry, and probably the ministry is spying on them). So all sides are sort of giving wrong directions and fake hints and whatnot so that the others won't really notice what's going on. What were the DE's really doing in the Ministry? They weren't there to kill Harry, and they didn't intend to kill Sirius either. He died because of a well aimed curse that threw him beyond that veiled arch. (also, if Harry hadn't gone to the Ministry, Sirius wouldn't have gone there either). I am starting to think that the Weapon really was in the Dept. of Mysteries, but it wasn't a prediction. Could it have been the archway? Imagine just Imperio-ing everybody you want to kill to go through it. What about time? If it could be harnessed or understood or something, then the one who would achieve that would have control over time. Also, one who manages to learn all there is to learn about the mind would have practically unlimited power. I think that the whole dreaming-about-corridors-and-doors was Voldemort just seeing how much he can fool Harry. In the chapter called The Lost Prophecy, Dumbledore explains about why he didn't Tell All in each of the previous 4 years, and then he goes on to explain about the prophecy and its meaning, and then he says that Harry posseses (spelling?) something that Voldemort will never understand - "In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you." And that is precisely the same thing that he told Harry at the end of the first year. He said to Harry nothing that Harry couldn't have figured out on his own, or that he hadn't said to Harry before. His speech is long (not to mention long-winded), but Dumbledore still doesn't tell Harry what the weapon actually is. Mimbulus Mimbletonia. From clarerowan at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 10:07:06 2003 From: clarerowan at yahoo.com (xlysanderx) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 10:07:06 -0000 Subject: OOP: What do you make of this name? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66390 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "logic_alley" wrote: > > > > Spoiler space: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rowan: > > > What does anyone make of Bellatrix Lestrange's name? Bella I > take to mean beautiful, and according to my dictionary, -trix is a > suffix that denotes a female (eg. aviator, aviatrix), though she > certainly has many tricks up her sleeve! I take Lestrange to mean > "the strange, or the foreign". Anyone else? > > > > "rose_in_shadow" wrote: > > Someone else on this list has mentioned that "Bellatrix" is also > the name of a star and since she's a member of the Black family, > perhaps it's a family thing? (i.e. Sirius - the dog star) >>>>> > > Here's a nice site about stars and constellations: > http://www.astro.wisc.edu/~dolan/constellations/ > > Regulus is also a star. Andromeda is a galaxy of course. I don't > see Narcissa, but her son Draco is also a constellation. > > I think you're right -- it's definitely a Black family tradition. > > And Sirius is the brightest star in our sky, after the sun. Bellatrix means warrioress. > > > --- Logic Alley ------- From nina.baker at uk.faulding.com Tue Jul 1 11:11:13 2003 From: nina.baker at uk.faulding.com (nb100uk) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 11:11:13 -0000 Subject: Houses and Percy In-Reply-To: <3F0165D3.9080402@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66391 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, digger wrote: > scaryfairymary wrote: > > > >> Calimora wrote: > > > > > > << Slytherin house doesn't seem to gather all of ambitious people > > >> > > > > > > I've always felt that Slytherin House accumulates not so much the > > > ambitious as the unscrupulous, those who aren't picky about what > > > means they use to achieve their ends, even if their ends are > > > un-ambitious things like "obey Draco". > > > > > > I always wondered why Percy was not sorted into Slytherin. He > > certainly has the ambition and the will to do pretty much anything > > for power. I never liked Percy (as my many posts on the 'Percy is > > evil' issue many moons ago can verify :) ) and I see his behaviour > > towards his family in OOP as vinidication of my position. I am not > > seeking to reopen the Percy debate, merely trying to ascertain why > > he was put in Gryffindor. He is not brave in the slightest, he only > > seems to want to be the favour of whoever is seen to have the most > > authority at any given time, McGonnagal and Dumbledore, then Crouch > > sr, now Fudge. It will be interesting to see if he changes colours > > again in the next book when it seems DD will once again be the 'main > > man'. In many ways he reminds me of Pettigrew > > > > > > -Mary > > > I think its plain that Slytherins will use *any* means to achieve their > ambition, whereas Gryffs just won't be that ruthless; their compassion > and ethics won't allow them. So Percy might be out on a limb, but he > won't go over to the dark side completely. However, that does give him > leeway to behave like Fudge and Crouch Snr, whom he has/had great > respect for, so the actal result could be just as bad............ > > ugh, not looking forward to reading *that* part in book six, but > expecting it just the same. > > digger I think people have confused the 'mean Percy' issue with him being EverSoEvil! Percy's failings have come entirely from believing his superiors in his job rather than his parents who (as we all have done in our teens and early twenties) he sees great faults in. Bravery comes in many guises (as JKR is always showing us), and one of those is courage of conviction. Now, no one said those convictions would always be the *right* ones, so Percy has made an error of judgement but is certainly not evil. He's fallen into the Fudge mode and is a blinkered fool but not evil. My hope for the start of Book 6 is for Percy to come back home full of remorse and, Arthur and Molly being the fantastic people they are, forgive him. However, I hope that one of his brothers (and my money would be on Charlie) gives him the dressing down of his life about the family sticking together, gives him a good punch in the jaw and then hugs him! Nina (very angry with Percy but not hating him quite so much as others - Umbridge anyone?!) From jenna_826 at juno.com Tue Jul 1 10:12:53 2003 From: jenna_826 at juno.com (jennflybaby) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 10:12:53 -0000 Subject: OOP : A start on the preOoP 150+ list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66392 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > > 30. Harry will see something new and magical and will have to look > twice to believe it. > Quite true. This one may make the cut for best of show shortlist, as > Tonks was indeed something new and magical, as was the phone booth > and the veil. > I think the thestrals would be considered "new and magical" as well, and the Room of Requirement. I vote for this to be on the best of show shortlist as well,as there were several new & magical things that took Harry by surprise. Jenn A. From Ali at zymurgy.org Tue Jul 1 11:16:00 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 11:16:00 -0000 Subject: OOP-Harry & Unforgivables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66393 Bohcoo wrote:- Some of us are upset that Harry attempted the Crucio spell. . . Has it hit anyone else that, due to the prophecy, Harry is going to have to -- HAVE to, no choice in the matter -- use Avada Kedavra? Andrea replied:- <<< I fully expect Harry will use the curse, though not necessarily on Voldemort (as that might backfire). Harry's natural (or perhaps taught by the Dursleys) tendencies are showing through and with the loss of his idealisation of the his father and the death of Sirius he had very little reason left to be a 'good kid' and follow the rules (or social conventions).>>> Ali responds:- I really disagree with this assessment. Harry has lost his childish innocence and his mentors, but I do not think that the behaviour we witnessed at the end of OoP is going to be indicative of post-OoP Harry. OoP Harry spent the year on the edge. He was still recovering from the psychological wounds of the Graveyard scene. I wonder how a teenager is meant to react to and recover from such an event? There must be limits, even for our Harry. Instead of having help and understanding, he was left in the lurch by Dumbledore and ridiculed and even tortured by some in authority. As such, his actions - loss of temper and fighting etc show the extreme stress he is under at the time, when he is in case going through normal adolescent hormone changes. This does mean that is how Harry will continue to be. Harry's use of the Cruciatus Curse was I think forgiveable under the circumstances. If Harry was tried in a court of law (well in the law that I know, not Wizarding Law), he would be be found not guilty due to temporary insanity. He had been pushed to the edge with the death of his Godfather, and was *not* in his right mind at the time. Even at this stage though, his Cruciatus was not very effective, as "righteous anger" doesn't hurt for long. As Bellatrix tells him, he needs to mean it (p. 715 OoP UK). Harry had seen Bellatrix threaten the Cruciatus curse on Ginny, he had seen her use it on Neville, he had seen her cause Sirius' death - and then gloat about it. I believe that his talk with Dumbledore marked the end of his uncontrolled anger. He has at last been given the reason behind his suffering. If only Dumbledore had "walked his talk" in GoF:- "Understanding is the first step to acceptance, and only with acceptance can there be recovery" p.590 UK edition. Harry has to know what depths he is capable of plunging to, now he knows this, he can begin to control himself. In OoP, we saw Harry's pychological props taken away; his father wasn't the wonderful idol that he imagined, Dumbledore wasn't Omniescient and always right, and Sirius was stuck in stasis, stuck between brother and father figure, in a past whcih belonged more to James than it did ti Harry. Harry has had to move on through his journey. Andrea again:- <<< Not that I think he's going to be using the curse left and right but I don't think he'd have a moral problem doing it. Remember, he only saved Pettigrew because Pettigrew said that his father (James) wouldn't have let him (Peter) be killed. That reasoning? Not going to fly anymore. Harry's seen what his father is capable of doing out of mere boredom.>>> Harry used his own moral compass when he saved Pettigrew. He ascribed his feelings to those of his father. I do not think that he will have to feel differently, just because he saw a different version of James. He disliked the James he saw, afterall. What it does mean though, is next time Harry has to make a decision like this, he will have to make it knowing that it is because of what he thinks, rather than what he believes somebody else would think. This is Harry entering into manhood and accepting views and actions as his own. Andrea:- <<< Sirius or Dumbledore might have been able to reason him but, of course, Sirius is dead and Dumbledore has been shown to be quite capable of screwing up. Harry doesn't trust Dumbledore half as much anymore and therefore Dumbledore has lost a lot of his hold on him.>>> Harry has indeed lost the mentoring. Did anyone notice that these two main influences were white (Albus) and Black (Sirius)? Harry has had to learn that the world is full of shades of grey, he has learnt this to his cost, but this does not mean that he is about to go out of control. He has had to sink to use the Cruciatus, so that he can rise above it. Harry is not a whiter-than-white character. He is himself made of shades of light grey and very dark grey. I do believe that the Cruciatus curse has marked the bottom of the depths to which Harry will plunge. I am not sure that Harry will use the AK curse, if he does it will be through righteous indignation, rather than murderous intent, and I'm not sure that will be sufficient. I do not however believe though that Voldemort will be vanquished through AK. Voldemort understands the hate necessary to cast that spell, he does not understand the love which successfully resisted it - that is Harry's real weapon. Ali From pmah4600 at mail.usyd.edu.au Tue Jul 1 11:28:56 2003 From: pmah4600 at mail.usyd.edu.au (The Kirk) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 11:28:56 -0000 Subject: OOtP: Why Weren't the Weasleys in the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66394 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snufflesnbeakie" wrote: > I might have missed this topic of conversation, if it had been > brought up previously, but I was just re-listening to my audio tape > version of OOtP and came across something that made me wonder. . . > > When Lupin was reassuring Mrs. Weasley after her terrible ordeal > with the boggart - he said that she hadn't been in the order last > time, so she wouldn't have known that it was different: i.e., that > order members where outnumbered 20 to 1 by death eaters. This time > it was different. . . And they were not in the photo that Moody > showed Harry. > > But why would the Weasleys not have been in the Order the last > time? They would have been old enough, they are obviously staunch > supporters of Dumbledore, they are disliked by death eaters - surely > they would have been members. This seems like a huge contradiction > to me. > > Any theories? If it's been previously discussed, I'd really like a > reminder of what was thrown out! > Well, I think the best theory is the one that states Mr and/or Mrs Weasley were under the influence of the Imperius curse during the first Voldemort War. Roo From vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be Tue Jul 1 11:30:25 2003 From: vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be (Vicky Gwosdz) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 11:30:25 -0000 Subject: Harry/Ginny - Prophecy - Prediction- Some OOP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66395 OK, I am like a million posts behind, so if somebody has already come up wth this idea, excuse me. But I have been busy reading through all the posts and I have been combining several posts in to one horrible thought. (Spoiler space) I'll start with my assumptions: - Assuming that the prophecy indeed indicates that Harry will be the one who will vanquish Voldemort. - DD indicates that the power that Harry has which Voldemort does not have, is the ability to truly love someone (at least that's what I understand after 3 rereads). - When Voldemort first tried to kill off Harry, he was stopped by Lily's sacrifice, which nearly killed him. Not completely, because only "the chose one (Harry?) will have that power. - Assuming that Ginny is put in place to be Harry's big love (which I do believe) - Taking into consideration that JKR stated in an interview: "what makes you think Harry will live after book 7" (don't remember the exact wording. So what if the next story happens: In book 7, Voldemort tries to kill Ginny (who is by then Harry's girlfriend). Harry trhrows himself in the line of fire in order to save Ginny, thereby sacrificing his own life, in the same way Lily did for him. This time however, it is the chosen one that makes the enormous sacrifice out of love (the power Voldemort does not understand) and Voldermort is thereby truly vanquished. End of story. Voldemort is gone, Harry is dead and Ginny remains! I'm not happy that I came up with this, because I wouldn't like it, so please shoot the theory! My 2 cts, Vicky From catherinemck at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 11:41:35 2003 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 11:41:35 -0000 Subject: OOP-Harry & Unforgivables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66396 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alon van Dam" wrote: > Spoilers for EVERYBODY! > > > > However, I don't think he'd necessary *have* to use Avada > Kedavra. > > > After all, he might want Voldemort to suffer first. > > > > > > - Andrea. > > > > Aren't there any other ways to kill Voldemort? Like chopping off > his > > head or something? Or does everything have to be done magically? > > > > Tamara > > How about yanking him through a certain veil we've all grown to know > and fear? If it's good enough for Sirius, it's certainly good enough > for LV, no? > > Alon Concrete and chicken wire could go a long way, too...pictures Harry with a cement mixer, 'Wingardium Leviosa!' However if I had to put money on it, I'd go with the veil. Catherine McK From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 11:45:03 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 11:45:03 -0000 Subject: Harry/Ginny - Prophecy - Prediction- Some OOP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66397 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Vicky Gwosdz" wrote: > OK, I am like a million posts behind, so if somebody has already come > up wth this idea, excuse me. > > But I have been busy reading through all the posts and I have been > combining several posts in to one horrible thought. > > (Spoiler space) > > I'll start with my assumptions: > > - Assuming that the prophecy indeed indicates that Harry will be the > one who will vanquish Voldemort. > > - DD indicates that the power that Harry has which Voldemort does not > have, is the ability to truly love someone (at least that's what I > understand after 3 rereads). > > - When Voldemort first tried to kill off Harry, he was stopped by > Lily's sacrifice, which nearly killed him. Not completely, because > only "the chose one (Harry?) will have that power. > > - Assuming that Ginny is put in place to be Harry's big love (which I > do believe) > > - Taking into consideration that JKR stated in an interview: "what > makes you think Harry will live after book 7" (don't remember the > exact wording. > > So what if the next story happens: > > In book 7, Voldemort tries to kill Ginny (who is by then Harry's > girlfriend). Harry trhrows himself in the line of fire in order to > save Ginny, thereby sacrificing his own life, in the same way Lily > did for him. This time however, it is the chosen one that makes the > enormous sacrifice out of love (the power Voldemort does not > understand) and Voldermort is thereby truly vanquished. End of > story. Voldemort is gone, Harry is dead and Ginny remains! > > I'm not happy that I came up with this, because I wouldn't like it, > so please shoot the theory! > > My 2 cts, > > Vicky YAY VICKY this is a truly tearjerking ending and I am sooooo glad I can shoot it down in flames! Harry making a sacrifice of himself for love could indeed be a power strong enough to vanquish the Dark Lord, but I am afraid, alas, the prophecy would not be fulfilled because LV would not have died by the "hand of the other" but by his own. Valky glad to laud this theory on its merit and even gladder to have found a way it cannot be :D From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 11:45:09 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 11:45:09 -0000 Subject: OOP: James, headboy without having been prefect? In-Reply-To: <20030701090547.87446.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66398 > > I believe that James was a Headboy during his final > year in Hogwarts. As Sirius said in OoP, James grew > out of his 'behaviour' as he grew older. Maybe his not > a prefect in his fifth year but he may be a prefect > during his sixth year in Hogwarts. Is it possible? > What I don't recall seeing in this discussion is who James would have to take the prefect job from. Lupin is currently the male prefect for the house. (Most likely Gryffindor, but regardless, I think it's clear they were all in the same house.) Just to recap why I think it's clear: 1) Learning Animagus spells take time and privacy, which are more plentiful if you're in the same tower. 2) Lupin was made prefect to keep an eye on James and Sirius, which would indicate he had plenty of chances to do so. Therefore, same tower, same common room, etc. In order for James to be a prefect, Lupin would have to NOT be a prefect. Perhaps James was never a prefect, and just became Head Boy, while Lupin remained prefect. Or perhaps Lupin had another near-miss as far as attacking a student and resigned his prefect job. Or, perhaps part of the bargain for Snape keeping his mouth shut after the Shrieking Shack was that Lupin would be removed from a position of authority. And James, having just shown maturity and leadership by saving his hated enemy, was then the logical choice? Darrin -- And no, I don't believe jealousy over prefect-hood makes Ever So Evil!Lupin more likely. :) From ugadawg02 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 11:53:38 2003 From: ugadawg02 at yahoo.com (ugadawg02) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 11:53:38 -0000 Subject: OOP-Harry & Unforgivables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66399 Spoiler space > > > > > > > > > > Bohcoo wrote:- Some of us are upset that Harry attempted the Crucio spell. . . Has it hit anyone else that, due to the prophecy, Harry is going to have to -- HAVE to, no choice in the matter -- use Avada Kedavra? That is fully possible that Harry will have to use that spell, but perhaps not, there are I am sure other spells that can be used to create something to fall on another person crushing them or perhaps enchat another object to attack the person, so I am not sure he will have to use Avada Kedavra. Remember he did not use that Unforgivable Curse when he was furious last time, so he might not have to use it eventually. Also remember what the prophecy says, it says nothing directly about him having to directly kill (if I am mistaken forgive me my g/f has my copy and is reading it still) only that eventually one must die for the other to live and that we assume only Harry can bring about this change, but even if he is the only one that does not mean he has to kill in order to bring about this change. Does it? -RJ -RJ From vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be Tue Jul 1 12:00:09 2003 From: vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be (Vicky Gwosdz) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 12:00:09 -0000 Subject: Harry/Ginny - Prophecy - Prediction- Some OOP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66400 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > YAY VICKY this is a truly tearjerking ending and I am sooooo glad I > can shoot it down in flames! > Harry making a sacrifice of himself for love could indeed be a power > strong enough to vanquish the Dark Lord, but I am afraid, alas, the > prophecy would not be fulfilled because LV would not have died by > the "hand of the other" but by his own. > > Valky glad to laud this theory on its merit and even gladder to have > found a way it cannot be :D Yes, but (!) there are two important lines in the prophecy, and I'm working backwards here: 1. The one with the power to vanquish Voldemort will be born at the end of the seventh month ( or something like that, I don't have the book). It says here vanquish, not kill. 2. Either will die at the hand of the other. This is the first part of the prophecy. Suppose I take it a bit further and the prophecy does indeed relate to both boys, being Harry and Neville. Harry is the one who has the power to vanquish V and does so by dying to save Ginny. After Voldemort is vanquished (his power totally removed), Neville kills him! My 2 cts, Vicky From mrsbonsai at charter.net Tue Jul 1 12:03:24 2003 From: mrsbonsai at charter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 12:03:24 -0000 Subject: OOP: Sirius, Phineas, Portraits (possible spoilers if you haven't read much) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66401 Actually, I was kinda wondering. Do you have to be dead for the portraits to "come alive" rather than just flitting in and out? I mean, I know that pictures are animated, such as newspapers and Colin's pictures, and even the trading cards. But of the paintings, do we really know of one of someone who is alive? Julie From ugadawg02 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 12:08:20 2003 From: ugadawg02 at yahoo.com (ugadawg02) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 12:08:20 -0000 Subject: Harry/Ginny - Prophecy - Prediction- Some OOP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66402 >>> but I am afraid, alas, the prophecy would not be fulfilled because LV would not have died by the "hand of the other" but by his own. Valky That would be a tearjerking ending, however what does by the 'hand of the other' mean? Could it simply mean Harry has to set something in motion that will eventually lead to LV's death or does he himself have to kill LV? That is can her organize or help organize a 'hit squad' from the DA which he heads and then they kill LV? That would be by the 'hand of the other' in that Harry organized the group that killed LV or does he have to be the one to drop the statue or use the Unforgiveabel curse agains LV? Can it also be that such a reflection is by Harry's hand since it is Harry's protection that would reflect the spell? -RJ From MKELLER at SUNLINK.NET Tue Jul 1 11:31:22 2003 From: MKELLER at SUNLINK.NET (jksunflower2002) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 11:31:22 -0000 Subject: Death in the Weasley family?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66403 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amanda brock" wrote: > > Sleepygirl1003: > > > > The Weasley's are untouchable! They can't die, they just can't! > > > > Hickengruendler: > > > I am sure a Weasley will die, and I think it is likely that it will > > be more than one. And my main candidate is Ginny: It's an odd > feeling > > I have, that Ginny won't make it till the end. I used to worry about Ginny, but not so much now. At this moment I'm more worried about Bill. Nice safe desk job, eh? Sounds ominous. Also, yet another reference in this book (there was one in GOF) about how Ginny seems to favor Bill the most out of all her brothers. Again, sounds ominous. > Me too I think that perhaps a few of them, say Ginny and Ron, might > get taken over unwillingly by Volermort as Ron is very suseptable to > being famous and popular etc that is a weekness in my eyes > > Amanda Oh, I totally agree. I believe Ron (as seen in GOF) is highly susceptible to the imperius. Oh, dear. Toad From ugadawg02 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 12:14:49 2003 From: ugadawg02 at yahoo.com (ugadawg02) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 12:14:49 -0000 Subject: OOP: Sirius, Phineas, Portraits (possible spoilers if you haven't read much) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66404 >>> Actually, I was kinda wondering. Do you have to be dead for the portraits to "come alive" rather than just flitting in and out? I mean, I know that pictures are animated, such as newspapers and Colin's pictures, and even the trading cards. But of the paintings, do we really know of one of someone who is alive? Julie I guess that is possible, perhaps we will learn more in the next few books, but is this not the frist time we have actually seen paintings mentioned this in depth, could they have be different because they are painted rather then a photograph of an actually time? (if someone else has mentioned this idea forgive me, I have not seen it in my review of several posts)I always thought photographs were instant images of a frozen moment in time so the people were not really 'alive' but paintings are more magic in that they can bring to life a frozen moment in time, a fine line I know but it is something that I am thinking might happen. -RJ From MKELLER at SUNLINK.NET Tue Jul 1 12:15:38 2003 From: MKELLER at SUNLINK.NET (jksunflower2002) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 12:15:38 -0000 Subject: OOP: Re: Death in the Weasley family?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66405 I must have messed up my first post because it didn't appear. However, if it does happen to pop up in the future, I apologize in advance for the duplication. Onto the post: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amanda brock" wrote: > > Sleepygirl1003: > > > > The Weasley's are untouchable! They can't die, they just can't! > > > > Hickengruendler: > > > I am sure a Weasley will die, and I think it is likely that it will > > be more than one. And my main candidate is Ginny: It's an odd > feeling > > I have, that Ginny won't make it till the end. I used to worry about Ginny, but not so much now. I'm more worried about Bill. Nice desk job, eh? Sounds ominous. Also, reference has been made yet again to the fact that Bill seems to be Ginny's favorite brother. Again, ominous. > > > Me too I think that perhaps a few of them, say Ginny and Ron, might > get taken over unwillingly by Volermort as Ron is very suseptable..> Amanda I have to agree with this. It's been established that Ron is highly susceptible to the imperius curse. I believe that will come into play in one of the future books. However, I still do not think that Ron will die in the end. Too many red (headed) herrings. Toad From cathrian at spray.no Tue Jul 1 12:16:38 2003 From: cathrian at spray.no (magicavontryll) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 12:16:38 -0000 Subject: Neville's grandfather Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66406 I just wonder whether anyone else seem to think that Neville is lying about who he saw die to Umbridge, he is studdering a bit when she asks. But then again, who wouldn't studder in front of That Woman.... Magica From ugadawg02 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 12:20:33 2003 From: ugadawg02 at yahoo.com (ugadawg02) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 12:20:33 -0000 Subject: OOP: Re: Death in the Weasley family?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66407 I used to worry about Ginny, but not so much now. I'm more worried about Bill. Nice desk job, eh? Sounds ominous. Also, reference has been made yet again to the fact that Bill seems to be Ginny's favorite brother. Again, ominous. Toad I do think it is Ginny though she is someone that is just coming into her own and she is just becoming strong, she is someone people, more people are starting to being to like as a character, I fear what this might mean for her in the up coming books, she is, perhaps only of the likely still, remember LV did possess her at one time, perhaps out of revenge of Harry breaking the enchantment he will kill Ginny. -RJ From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 1 12:25:14 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 12:25:14 -0000 Subject: House pride post-Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66408 I asked: Does Sirius ever show strong house allegiance? This would really help my argument... David: What was in my mind is the disparagng way he refers to Snape's gang of Slytherins - that is he still categorises them by house. Admittedly that is looking back at schooldays, when you might slip back into school modes of thought anyway. Me: Well, they *did* all turn out to be Death Eaters. I think that's the only thing you could say he was disparaging about in that speech, and it's fairly justified in the grand scheme of things. Oddly, Laine wrote: Of course, you also have to wonder whether or not Sirius WAS in Gryffindor. I'm sure this had been voiced before, but I've always wondered if each of the Marauders came from a different house. Me: Yes, that's what the entire thread was discussing. Try using the "Up Thread" facility to track the argument of a thread. Kirstini (still snorting whenever the MWPP/Gryffs question comes up, except now with Idlerat-reinforced self-righteousness. Hurrah! Someone agrees with me!) From ugadawg02 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 12:31:45 2003 From: ugadawg02 at yahoo.com (ugadawg02) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 12:31:45 -0000 Subject: Neville's grandfather In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66409 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "magicavontryll" wrote: > I just wonder whether anyone else seem to think that Neville is lying > about who he saw die to Umbridge, (snip) > > Magica He might be lying especially if he things she is evil and has a possible link to Voldemort, also what do we know about Neville's grandfather?? -RJ From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Jul 1 12:46:44 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 12:46:44 -0000 Subject: Percy as Boromir? In-Reply-To: <20030701024036.78208.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66410 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Heather Gauen wrote: > I've feared since GoF that Percy's coming to an untimely death, but I would love for it to be while pledging allegiance to Dumbledore. I've thought all along that he was a perfect Slytherin (aside from his family, of course) so it would be bittersweet for him to prove in his dying moments why he was a Gryffindor. Or he could do all that *without* the dying part, but I just get so gleeful when I'm predicting deaths :)> It has been said that his bravery is shown when he defies his family, which makes sense. Going against family is not an easy thing to do. However, I am starting to think Percy's death less likely. I know we saw him show concern for his family in GoF when he went into the lake to help Ron, but I don't see much evidence of Percy sticking out his own neck to help someone else. In CoS, he was quick to hush Ginny because he was more worried she'd tell her brothers he had a girlfriend than he was about her strange behavior. Now that I think of it, Percy is *only* interested in things that paint him in a flattering light, whether it is bragging about being Head Boy, handing in early a report on cauldrons, or repeating what his boss said about the Triwizard Tournament. If there's another side to Percy, I have yet to see it. Still doesn't make him evil, though. --jenny from ravenclaw ****************************** From jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com Tue Jul 1 12:56:40 2003 From: jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com (jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 07:56:40 -0500 Subject: Question about the inheritance thread... Message-ID: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30AFFB@msgmsp16.norwest.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66411 Can I ask why everyone has assumed that Sirius did not make a Will? If he did- he could have left his property to anyone he wanted- including the Weasleys or Harry regardless of legal relationship. Does it say somewhere that he didn't do this that I missed? My assumption is that he left everything to Harry who was the closest thing he had to a son. Assuming he didn't leave a Will, Harry would not receive anything (unless the UK's intestacy laws differ wildly from the US's.) Typical pattern of intestate succession in the US is: lineal descendants (per stirpes), parents, siblings and their descendants(per stirpes) and if none of them- then to collateral relatives. Jennifer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Jul 1 13:00:07 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 13:00:07 -0000 Subject: Wizarding Relations, or, Who Left the Snapes Out? In-Reply-To: <00d701c33f88$d2b9cd00$54ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66412 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" > > I am on my second read of this book, and have just come to the part where > Sirius and Harry are looking at the family tree. I do notice that Harry is > not really looking at every last name, but mainly where Sirius directs him > to look. The only time I notice Harry looking at something on his own is > when he notices that Andromeda's sister is Mrs. Malfoy, and notes Draco is > related to Sirius. He sees the black spot that once was Sirius, Sirius > directs him to his brother Regulus, but as far as I can tell, Harry doesn't > even take a look at Sirius's parents. Not once do we even hear a name for > them besides Mother and Father or Mr. and Mrs. Black. > > The reason I post this is because I wonder what Mrs. Black's maiden name > was. I was thinking we had some sort of a physical description of Mrs. > Black, but all we are given is yellowing skin (along with rolling eyes and a > cap on her head). Anyway, the yellowing skin must have been what stuck in > my head when I began to post. The yellowish skin put me in mind immediately > with Snape, who is always described as having sallow skin. Is there a > possibility that her maiden name could be Snape? Perhaps she is Severus's > aunt, his father's sister. Although I am of the firm belief that most of > Severus's hair problem comes from his lack of self-confidence and him just > not caring enough to do something about it, this does not mean that some of > it could be genetic and this is why Mrs. Black is wearing a cap over her > hair. I admit, one reason I have this idea in my head is because I have > seen fanart of Snape and Sirius that had them looking somewhat alike. I am > going out on a limb by even posting this, but there is a chance this could > be the case, so therefore I post it. > Yahoomort evidently ate this reply the first time I posted it, so here it is again. Kelly, you're following in my footsteps, to a certain extent. See post #63570. And, while I think the name "Snape" might have caught Harry's eye had he stood there long enough, it seemed he was drawn first to the blasted-out holes of the names of the unsatisfactory members of the family. And then he found the Malfoys. I can't decide if Sirius busily pointing out his various lunatic relations was just a trip down a dark memory lane, or if he was trying to prevent Harry from noticing certain people or relationships on the tapestry. Somehow, I doubt we're through discovering all there is to know about the interrelationships of these families. Marianne From tigerfan41 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 13:11:54 2003 From: tigerfan41 at yahoo.com (Darrell Harris) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 06:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 3160 In-Reply-To: <1057061053.10981.26374.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030701131154.58468.qmail@web10004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66413 Message: 5 Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 10:20:34 -0000 From: "Tamara" Subject: Re: OOP-Harry & Unforgivables --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vesania_aeterno" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" wrote: > > S > > P > > A > > C > > E > > > > > > > > > > Some of us are upset that Harry attempted the Crucio spell. . . Has > > it hit anyone else that, due to the prophecy, Harry is going to > have > > to -- HAVE to, no choice in the matter -- use Avada Kedavra? > > > > And, how do you learn how to do that? How do yolu practice? > > > > Bohcoo > > Well, Harry's not only used the Cruciatus Curse but thought about > using it before (on Snape). He did manage to cast it without any > practice and though it didn't work well (though, really, it worked > admirably for a first try) it did work. The difference is that if > Avada Kedavra worked *at all* it'd have done its function and killed > Voldemort (or whoever Harry is aiming it at). > > I fully expect Harry will use the curse, though not necessarily on > Voldemort (as that might backfire). Harry's natural (or perhaps > taught by the Dursleys) tendencies are showing through and with the > loss of his idealisation of the his father and the death of Sirius he > had very little reason left to be a 'good kid' and follow the rules > (or social conventions). Not that I think he's going to be using the > curse left and right but I don't think he'd have a moral problem > doing it. Remember, he only saved Pettigrew because Pettigrew said > that his father (James) wouldn't have let him (Peter) be killed. That > reasoning? Not going to fly anymore. Harry's seen what his father is > capable of doing out of mere boredom. > > Sirius or Dumbledore might have been able to reason him but, of > course, Sirius is dead and Dumbledore has been shown to be quite > capable of screwing up. Harry doesn't trust Dumbledore half as much > anymore and therefore Dumbledore has lost a lot of his hold on him. > > However, I don't think he'd necessary *have* to use Avada Kedavra. > After all, he might want Voldemort to suffer first. > > - Andrea. Aren't there any other ways to kill Voldemort? Like chopping off his head or something? Or does everything have to be done magically? Tamara If you,ve ever seen the movie wizards then you know there are other possible outcomes to how Harry can win. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From CynthiaReinhart at netscape.net Tue Jul 1 13:30:19 2003 From: CynthiaReinhart at netscape.net (phoenixmum) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 13:30:19 -0000 Subject: Question about the inheritance thread... In-Reply-To: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30AFFB@msgmsp16.norwest.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66414 I have also been thinking about what happens to Sirius's house and to the house elf, Kreacher.If he didn't have a will, I assume any inheritance would go to relatives, many of which are dark wizards & witches. Given that the house has been the headquarters of the Order, and that Kreacher knows too much for it to be safe for him to go into service for these relations, I wondered if, as a safeguard, Sirius would have willed the property to either Harry, as the one he cares most about, someone in the Order like Lupin (who could use the money/living accomadations, and also a "brother" of sorts), or to someone like Tonks, if it would need to be a blood relation, albeit a distant one, for Kreacher to transfer loyalty. Sirius could have made a will a long time before, when the Harry was a baby and Voldemort was not yet defeated, or more recently. The time frame could affect who he selected to inherit. Ultimately, the inheritance of Kreacher is a more important issue that the house, as Kreacher knows so much about the compostion of the Order. A memory charm might address this issue, but we all know memory charms can be broken. From CynthiaReinhart at netscape.net Tue Jul 1 13:30:52 2003 From: CynthiaReinhart at netscape.net (phoenixmum) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 13:30:52 -0000 Subject: Question about the inheritance thread... In-Reply-To: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30AFFB@msgmsp16.norwest.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66415 I have also been thinking about what happens to Sirius's house and to the house elf, Kreacher.If he didn't have a will, I assume any inheritance would go to relatives, many of which are dark wizards & witches. Given that the house has been the headquarters of the Order, and that Kreacher knows too much for it to be safe for him to go into service for these relations, I wondered if, as a safeguard, Sirius would have willed the property to either Harry, as the one he cares most about, someone in the Order like Lupin (who could use the money/living accomadations, and also a "brother" of sorts), or to someone like Tonks, if it would need to be a blood relation, albeit a distant one, for Kreacher to transfer loyalty. Sirius could have made a will a long time before, when the Harry was a baby and Voldemort was not yet defeated, or more recently. The time frame could affect who he selected to inherit. Ultimately, the inheritance of Kreacher is a more important issue that the house, as Kreacher knows so much about the compostion of the Order. A memory charm might address this issue, but we all know memory charms can be broken. From jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com Tue Jul 1 13:34:01 2003 From: jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com (jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 08:34:01 -0500 Subject: ] Re: Question about the inheritance thread... Message-ID: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30B003@msgmsp16.norwest.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66416 "Ultimately, the inheritance of Kreacher is a more important issue that the house, as Kreacher knows so much about the compostion of the Order. A memory charm might address this issue, but we all know memory charms can be broken." ******* Good point. Kreacher must remain with the family due to the peculiarities of his kind- And it would be too dangerous to give him his "clothes." Question- must house elves stay with the HOUSE or must they only remain with a family member? Does anyone know? Jennifer From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Jul 1 12:39:57 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 12:39:57 -0000 Subject: Wizarding Relations, or, Who Left the Snapes Out? In-Reply-To: <00d701c33f88$d2b9cd00$54ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66417 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" > room). > I am on my second read of this book, and have just come to the part where > Sirius and Harry are looking at the family tree. I do notice that Harry is > not really looking at every last name, but mainly where Sirius directs him > to look. The only time I notice Harry looking at something on his own is > when he notices that Andromeda's sister is Mrs. Malfoy, and notes Draco is > related to Sirius. He sees the black spot that once was Sirius, Sirius > directs him to his brother Regulus, but as far as I can tell, Harry doesn't > even take a look at Sirius's parents. Not once do we even hear a name for > them besides Mother and Father or Mr. and Mrs. Black. > > The reason I post this is because I wonder what Mrs. Black's maiden name > was. I was thinking we had some sort of a physical description of Mrs. > Black, but all we are given is yellowing skin (along with rolling eyes and a > cap on her head). Anyway, the yellowing skin must have been what stuck in > my head when I began to post. The yellowish skin put me in mind immediately > with Snape, who is always described as having sallow skin. Is there a > possibility that her maiden name could be Snape? Perhaps she is Severus's > aunt, his father's sister. Although I am of the firm belief that most of > Severus's hair problem comes from his lack of self-confidence and him just > not caring enough to do something about it, this does not mean that some of > it could be genetic and this is why Mrs. Black is wearing a cap over her > hair. I admit, one reason I have this idea in my head is because I have > seen fanart of Snape and Sirius that had them looking somewhat alike. I am > going out on a limb by even posting this, but there is a chance this could > be the case, so therefore I post it. > You're following in my footsteps. See message #63570. I'm sure there's more to the Black clan than we realize. Marianne From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Jul 1 13:40:25 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 13:40:25 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOtP: Molly's Shortcomings Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66418 (I apologise if this comes through twice - my ISP reported an error in sending, but I don't trust its messages - but I sent it over half an hour ago and it hasn't shown up in the archives so I will risk it). On 30 Jun 2003 at 23:31, megalynn44 wrote: > I asked before OOP what did Molly do with her time? If the Weasley's > were so strapped for cash why didn't she get a job, the kids are out > of the house most the year. However, now it is evident that that is > where she is in her element. She seems most talented at running a > household, and even though, especially today, not many people value > that, I think she is a valuable asset being the person she is. I think you've nailed that perfectly. Remember, the member of the Order of the Phoenix are out there risking their lives. They are opposing evil, and they know it's dangerous. Grimmauld Place is their safehouse - because Dumbledore is it's secret keeper, it is one of the only places they can be secure, that they can be safe, where they can relax. And Molly Weasley is trying to make it a place where they can do that securely, where they can basically be at home, be relaxed, and given the nature of the place (Sirius' mother, for a start) this is not a minor task. I work in an area where after September 11, we found ourselves working on matters relating to protecting against terrorism. We weren't in danger, but we were stressed out beyond belief, working well over 100 hours a week, and coming close to cracking under the strain. Because most of us live at least an hour from work, we didn't really have time to waste going home so we took to crashing at a friends house only about 10 minutes from work. He still lives with his mother - and I'll tell you, she saved our sanity - basically by doing what Molly is doing. She's the stereotypical mother too (-8 It wasn't a minor thing for us. It helped us keep things together. And we weren't at Order of the Phoenix stress levels. It's like the canteens run in war zones for soldiers - places where they can relax, and try and get themselves back into mental shape. It's not a minor thing at all. It's hard to describe what its like when you've been working like a maniac for thirty hours straight and you walk into a place where there's a hot meal, or even just a cup of tea waiting for you (-8. I'm sure Molly would be perfectly capable of doing other things - and perfectly willing too. But her contribution is important even as it is. And, frankly, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Order is keeping her doing what she is doing *because* she has Ron and Ginny to take care of. She still has minor children in her care, and while we see the Order say that they will take care of them if they have to, they must know the best thing they can do for those kids is keep Molly Weasley alive. Personally, I was rather sad to see that Snape doesn't eat with the Order. Especially after seeing the memories he keeps hidden. I hate and despise the man (I wish I didn't, I'd like to like him) but if anything could ever bring him into the fold, I think it's her. Provided he didn't react to her kindness, the way he did to Lily's of course. Dash it all - writing this has got me all emotional. This is why I love these books. Because they can do that to me. From jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com Tue Jul 1 13:41:15 2003 From: jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com (jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 08:41:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding Relations, or, Who Left the Sna pes Out? Message-ID: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30B006@msgmsp16.norwest.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66419 You're following in my footsteps. See message #63570. I'm sure there's more to the Black clan than we realize. Marianne Well of course there must be- look at their last name after all! If any family is likely to be a stronghold of "dark" wizards I would think the "Black" family would be :) I wonder if somehow they are related to Voldemort- am I correctly remembering that we don't know much about Tom Riddle's mother? And if Voldemort is related to Sirius- the Harry in some sense is too- as Voldemort and Harry now share a blood bond. Jennifer From steinber at zahav.net.il Tue Jul 1 14:42:22 2003 From: steinber at zahav.net.il (m.steinberger) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 16:42:22 +0200 Subject: OOP: Questions for JKR Message-ID: <006801c33fdf$3e63f160$a809fea9@f2m8k9> No: HPFGUIDX 66420 I don't know if Lee sent this to the list or just to me off list, but here's the reply for you all to deal with. As usual, I thank all of you who reply to me offlist as well as to the list, because I can't check the list all that often and I've stopped the digests until they slow down to only two a day. ----- Original Message ----- From: Birgit Kohls To: m.steinberger Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 2:48 PM Subject: RE: OOP: Questions for JKR > > > > >Lee1: I'm familiar wth the type of family situation Harry stems from, > and > > > it has nothing to do with "being a nice person" if a kid behaves > > > nicely. > > > > TAS2: I agree that one can behave well on the outside and be horrid > > on the > > inside, but I don't think Harry was portrayed that way in HP1-4. > > There were > > dozens (hundreds?) of posts on this list commenting on what a nice > > kid Harry > > was, and this included the attitude he was displaying. If he was > > meant to > > have been seething on the inside and well-behaved on the outside, JKR > > would > > have had no trouble writing him that way. > > > > Lee2: Harry never was a nice kid. He was jealous of his cousin. A lot of > "accidents" happened. He hated his foster family. TAS3: Hating and being angry are very different. Nice people should hate evil. They should not get angry at evil because anger is a violent reaction against perceived offense, and (1) offenses are always aggravated and never mitigated by violent reactions, and (2) violence (even emotional violence) is a terrible thing for the perpetrator. It's a form of cutting off your virtues to spite your opponent. Lee2: > He behaved nicely. > Hogwarts was a huge adventure. He was suddenly very special - do you, > per chance the scene in OOP where Snape asks him if having that bond > with Voldy makes him feel special? - he got attention and he was > finally allowed to do stuff he was never allowed to do before. TAS3: Yes, but that's in the disputed OoP. He didn't feel that way in PS. And even if it did make him feel special, that's not so terrible. What I can't stand is his hurting innocent friends because he's in a horrid mood. > > Lee1: You also misunderstand the concept about getting angry > > > because of getting some self esteem. I'm not sure if you are > > familiar > > > with the magnitute of bottled up emotions that exist in someone who > > > has been "kept nice" for all their childhood. > > > > TAS2: Actually, I've met some people like that. More than one. Some > > decide > > that no matter what it costs them, they're not going to let it cost > > anyone > > else. They go to therapy, or work it out exercising, or whatever, and > > though > > it takes quite a few years, they resolve the anger without becoming > > nasty. > > > Lee2: But those people were angry before they went into therapy, weren't > they? They did hurt others before they realized that they had to do > something about it? TAS3: No! They ate themselves up but *did not* hurt other people. They twisted themselves into pretzels to avoid hurting other people. And then they went to therapy to stop hurting themselves, before too much damage was done. > Lee2: That's the entire point: realizing that you have a > problem. Admitting that you need help. Anger is a lot like a drug in > that aspect. It's crawling into your system and it's very hard to get > rid of, especially if you don't read the signs that your surrounding > sent you. TAS3: The only good way to get rid of anger is to avoid it in the first place. > > > Lee1: In OOP, Harry is > > > finally able to say "I've had it, not any longer, stop abusing me". > > > Sure, he's no longer nice and behaved, but he hadn't the privilige > > of > > > evjoying your good upbringing. > > > > TAS2: That is true. However, as I commented above, JKR wrote Harry in > > HP1-4 > > (or at least HP1-3) as someone who was magically able to rise above > > his poor > > upbringing. *How* he did so has been puzzling many on this list, but > > not > > Lee2: Actually, no. He got himself into trouble, but he wasn't punished for > it. There were no consequences until Cedric died. The "last second > magical escape from trouble", the type of things that makes you > invincible. And then, boom, the good luck that always kept you from > disaster, runs out and someone ends up dead. > The other thing is that Harry is a smart person. He can learn hard if > he wants. He had to learn a lot about the Wizard world, and learning he > did. Then the wizard world showed to be not that different from his old > world after all. TAS3: His getting himself into trouble is a different issue. I'm discussing a kid who was sat on for eleven years, but managed to have very little desire to sit on anyone in return, and what temptation there was was quite manageable. Harry, with Hermione, has been grabbing the back of Ron's shirt for four years. No one's had to do that for Harry, because till OoP, he had very little temper. His getting into trouble has been a function of his lack of trust in adults (learned from having had Dursleys for role models), and has nothing to do with being angry, resentful, or full of himself. He never thought of himself as being very special, but he still followed his own instincts (breaking rules) because he didn't trust anyone else's guidance either. In OoP he's suddenly had some conceit grafted onto his formerly modest personality. In any case, his magical rescues didn't make him a nice person; he came to Hogwarts that way. And his losing his magical rescues shouldn't spoil his niceness because before Hogwarts he had no rescues (from Dudley, Ripper, etc), and he was nice then anyway. So this is completely besides the point we've been discussing, which is, What literary cause could justify turning our formerly long-tempered, considerate, unself-absorbed Harry into a cranky, inconsiderate, self-involved person? In other words - what are the literary gains vs the literary losses, and could the gains be gotten any other way, with fewer losses? And while we're at it - there's the other question we've been dealing with: Is Harry's new personality out of character compared to HP1-4 or not? I claim yes, with justifications that I've provided, and you claim no, with justifications I don't buy yet. > > > TAS2: So if for three-four years she believed in the > > power of > > "whatever" to help Harry be well-adjusted, why couldn't she identify > > that > > "whatever" and keep it working now? > > Lee2: Because Harry never was "well adjusted". He never followed orders, he > never stayed out of trouble. How often was he told in book 1 or two, or > even three, to stay behind, not to act? Did he follow? No. TAS3: Well adjusted, as I wrote above, doesn't mean "obedient." It means "kind, considerate, and able to handle his own emotions well enough to avoid hurting innocent people's feelings." I have no need to see an obedient Harry. I like a think-for-himself Harry much better. But I hate a "don't think, just lash out at people" Harry, which is what we've gotten in OoP. > Lee2: The "whatever" was that happened was that plain and simple Harry's good > luck run out. No Dumbledore who saves him in the last second from being > killed by Quireel. No Fawks who prevents that he and Ginny get killed > by Tom Riddle. Suddenly the magic was gone. People started to talk > about Harry, but he wasn't the hero any longer. Daily Prophet, anyone? TAS3: Like I wrote, the rescues were *not* the "whatever" that made Harry a nice kid on entering Hogwarts. And his OoP miseries might make him feel very bad, but they didn't need to take over his former ability to be very nice to anyone who wasn't a sworn enemy. In CoS he treated the suspicious Hufflepuffs very admirably. I see no gain-loss ratio to justify his mistreating Seamus. > > > TAS2: always > > the exceptions who do float above their upbringings, and Harry was > > doing > > just fine as an exception till now. What happened in HP5 to justify > > Harry > > losing his exceptional abilitiy to be well-adjusted? It would be one > > thing > > if he had never been well-adjusted and was slowly improving, and his > > anger > > in HP5 was as far as he had gotten. But that's not the case. > > > >Lee2: Voldemort, responsibility for a death (later, two deaths). feeling > abandomed by Dumbledore. REalization that a lot of what happened was > his very own fault. Have his friends pointing out a few facts to him > that he didn't like. > Book-5-Harry is on the brink, on a path to become Voldemort's equal, > full of anger and resentment. > Now, it's his own choice if he's going to accept help or if he will > follow the road to oblivion. TAS3: I think everything I've written above will do for responding to this. > > > TAS2: I don't agree that he has been a deeply troubled young man, and I do > > not > > admire JKR's having made him one retroactively. Also, I think Harry's > > been > > thinking for himself since HP1. (I was thinking for myself from a > > much > > earlier age.) > > Lee2: Ah yes. I know what type of problems my brothers & I got ourselves into > when we were in Harry Potter book 1's age. Yes, we were able to make > choices, we were able to think. Just that almost all of the time the > choices we made were lacking the knowledge and experience of a grown > up. > We thought the way a ten year old thinks, with our very own logic. > I admire you for being able to have thought like a grown up at that > age. TAS3: Again - getting into trouble is not the issue. Thinking like a grown up is not either. It's morality, the kind that says, You don't hurt other people, not even their feelings, except in self-defense. Harry had this for four years, and now he's lost it. > > TAS2: How would I react? I'd have written Dumbledore a letter in > > chapter 1 explaining why it was very important to my emotional > > stability to > > get a bit more information and attention than I was receiving, and > > I'd keep > > trying to reach him until I got some answers. This sounds less > > preposterous > > if you imagine the letter: "Dear Professor D., Hermione and Ron tell > > me that > > the reason no one is telling me what is going on with "him" is that > > you told > > them not to. I'm sure that you've got lots of very important reasons > > for > > this, but please understand that my nerves are about to split from > > the idea > > that "he" might be showing up on Privet Drive any moment. If you > > don't find > > some way to clue me in, you might have a St. Mungo's patient instead > > of a > > student next year. Please answer quick. Yours, Harry." > > > Lee2: It's great to know that as a ten year old you were already able to > ponder such important questions as your emotional stability. > I can see so many ten year olds writing such letters now, to their > teachers and parents. Really. > > From a writer's POV, I'd congrat you on killing the story. :) > TAS3: We're talking about Harry at fifteen. At fifteen I know lots of people who, after some long thought, would have been able to write such a letter. And no, it would not have killed the story. It would just have been a very different story. HP1-4 were great stories, even though Harry's personality was much closer to the maturity of such a letter than to his HP5 behavior. > > > TAS2: I would have preemted the anger and the problems in the first place. > > JKR > > decided not to do that, which is a big shame, becuase she could have > > demonstrated to millions of kids how it can be done. > > > Lee2: And what happens now? The kids TALK about what Harry should've done > instead. The THINK actively rather than having someone chew it for > them. They WORK on strategies and address problems. That's the great > thing about this book. People talk. There are over 8000 grown ups on > this list alone discussing issues, and I don't know how many kids chat, > talk in their English classes or just privately about what is going on. TAS3: They talked before, when Harry behaved better, and the kids wrote lots of comments about how they became better people by Harry's example. I don't believe this bad example is at all necessary to achieve any moral lessons for readers, and I am not at all sure that it isn't counterproductive. Now HP is not a morality treatise, but until now it was chock full of very inspiring, uplifting lessons, and now, in my mind, it's lost tons in that department. > Lee2: Yes, but again from a writer's POV... This series is laid out to be 7 > books. The plot is spread to the 7 books, and things happen because it > builds up things for the final chapter of book 7. > There are a lot of things that could've been handled better to achieve > a faster resolving of the problems. TAS3: This is quite by the way, but I think her books would be much better plotted if she would give up her school-story format and allow climaxes at less rigid intervals than once a year in June. I think HP4GU should start an on-line poll/petition to encourage JKR to quit the June-only formula. She doesn't have to listen to us, but it might be interesting to her to know how strongly her fans would like her to consider other options. If this comment doesn't take off on the list, I'll post it separately, by the way. > Lee2: JKR did fill book 5 with tons of > clues, pushed certain characters ahead, solved issues of the past and > raised new questions. A lot of things had to be re-evaluated by Harry > (and the reader). Yes, I'd wished for an additional 200 or 300 pages to > resolve those problems that are now carried into book 6 - because I > don't want to wait for another two years until the next book comes out. TAS3: I don't know where this comment of your is coming from. I don't have strong feelings in either direction. More resolutions or fewer are fine with me. I just wish that this book had gone in a different direction altogether, with a Harry-personality one year older, but not so radically less considerate, than it was before. Because his anger is so tightly woven into the plot, this would require a very different plot, but it could have led to the same resolution, with Harry learning his and Dumbledore's weaknesses, learning about his connection to Voldemort, and so on. For the umpteenth time, being a jerk is not a prerequisite for acheiving these literary goals. > >> Lee1: Uh... I'm not sure that you and I have read the same book. Apart > from > >> the cases where Voldemort directly accessed Harry, the times when > >> Harry reacted angry where all very well justified. > > > >TAS2: Getting angry is *never* justified. It's just understandable. > >However, in any given case, there is a way to deal with the stress and > >situation without getting angry. > > Lee2: Not everyone has that wonderful self control of yours. I know a lot of > people who react every bit as angry in a stressy situation as Harry > does. And while it might not be RIGHT To act like that, IMO it's > justified. But hey, that's just me, out of control person that I am. I > guess that my standards are just below yours in that matter. TAS3: I consider "right" synonymous with "justified." "Not right" allows such things as "understandable," and "common," but not "justified" with its connection to "justice." > >> Lee1: There was a reason > >> for him to become angry (and that he blew off like that with all the > >> stress of learning (homework until past midnight) and the owls > coming > >> up... sorry, but the other kids in his year reacted similar. He > *did* > >> apologize for that, too.) Then, Harry suffers from nightmares and > his > >> scar is constantly aching. I know for sure that nightmares and a > >> headache make me grumpy. Having to suffer that in a constant row, > day > >> after day... I don't know how I would handle that. > > > >TAS2: I'd apologise to people in advance and work very hard to be > >pleasant to people, that's all. Maybe take extra naps, or walks in the > >fresh air, or ask Madam Pomfrey for some headache potion. Again, this > >would have been more interesting and useful to readers than watching > >him step on everyone's toes. > >Lee2: You never blew off steam at anyone in your entire life? Wow, I am > impressed. TAS3: Only when I've been directly and falsely accused of hurting other people on purpose. >Lee2: Useful, maybe. Interesting? Not really. He'd still be perfect-Potter, > the kid who does everything right. TAS3: Not at all. Good intentions are very hard to act on and often fail. That can be very interesting. Harry in OoP has no intentions, good or otherwise, he just reacts. That is not very interesting to me. > Lee2: Besides... when was he supposed to take those extra naps and walks in > the fresh air? While he was writing his homework? While he was in > detention? While he was looking up stuff in the library? While he was > being mocked at? While he was having Occulumency lessons with Snape? TAS3: There was still plenty of time. > Lee2: Quiddich (his anger-outlet) was taken away from him. TAS3: So it's time to grow up and create your own outlets. > Lee2: Voldemort got more > and more influence on him through the connection. Most students thought > he was a liar or insane, or both for having his scar hurting. When he > *did* ask (to keep his mental stability at the begin of the book) he > was denied answers and treated like someone who couldn't handle things. TAS3: So he has to learn how to deal. Not spend 12 months dealing badly so that afterwards he can learn how to deal. Again, if he had been a nasty kid to begin with, I'd accept his having to learn to deal slowly. But he was *not* a nasty kid before. So there's no reason to spend 12 months as a nasty kid now. > Lee2: Very trustful. Jumping to conclusions, Harry is great at that, he > created problems that would've been easily solvable if just a few > choices had been made differently. TAS3: He could make all those *interesting* mistakes without being callous. There are plenty of other personality failings one can have. > >> Lee1: There are some thing that you can only learn through interaction, > >> through experience. Maybe you were aware of all the thing right > away, > >> but a lot of people don't receive your privilegded upbringing > >> strategies. They are not raised in patient families and they don't > >> get the master formulae. > >TAS2: So why didn't JKR show it to people? I suspect she knows them. >Lee2: Uhhh... I think she is just showing people, by showing the consequences > of what happens if you don't watch out carefully for those who are > entrusted to you. > Besides... What about all those little hints that she gives? Hagrid and > his care and love for everything. McDonagall - strict but caring. Mrs > Weasley, caring too much. Snape - seemingly not caring at all. > Dumbledore, tangled up into to many things to really be able to see > things trough. > Sirius - caught up in his own past, but caring for Harry more than life > itself, spontanious and hot headed. Lupin, trying to balance and ask > questions first, a source of calm. Ron, full of problems that reflect > Harry's, but more willing to listen. Hermoine, over-eagerly, but > caring, providing knowledge and stability. > Harry, his anger bringing him into trouble, hurting people (Ah, there's > the Warning, don't act like that kids!), still caring and not a bad > guy. > There are many other characters, each of which sends a message that > hint at the options. TAS3: I don't think these qualities in the other characters are strong enough to balance angry-Harry. > >> Lee1: What JKR wants of the parents? How about understanding that you have > >> to trust your teenager to AVOID such reactions? That sometimes, > >> sitting down and talk, that care and being there is so much more > >> worth than the best intentions? That you have to give your teenager > a > >> chance to pin down their anger and deal with it? From your post I > >> understand that you raise your kids in such a fashion, and that's a > >> good thing. I wished that everyone would do. Unfortunately, not > >> everyone does, and not all teenager have the advantage of having a > >> strong hand helping them standing up again after their inexperience > >> and feelings make them stumble. >> > >TAS2: Yes- all this exists in real life. The question is what good > it's > >doing in HP. > Lee2: Erm... you see me very surprised here. "What good is it doing in HP"? > Well, the characters would surely have lead a more comfortable life, > much more peaceful... but the reader would not care about the message. > There would be no discussion, no questions, no rereading and looking > for the whys and buts. > These things exist in real life, and Harry Potter is a reflection of > real life. :) TAS3: Again, there was plenty of discussion of HP before OoP. Plenty of readers caring. This series could have gone lots of other ways without harming any of that. > Lee2: Just my two cents. > > Lee > The Admiring Skeptic, valuing your post at a lot more than two cents. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 13:48:28 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 13:48:28 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?DADA=92s_Got_a_Brand-New_Hag_(filk)?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66421 My First OOP filk! Dedicated to Gail DADA's Got a Brand-New Hag (OOP, Chap. 12) To the tune of James Brown's Papa's Got a Brand-New Bag Hear this song at: http://www.angelfire.com/rock/musicraptor/hrrXXVIII/indexXXVIII.html THE SCENE: MCGONAGALL'S office. She lectures Harry on the importance of watching his back around Prof. Umbridge MCGONAGALL: Look out Harry.....MOM is in control I ain't too keen...about that Umbridge babe She lives to nag DADA's got a brand new hag Look out Harry....for her detention scene It's not too pretty....and her lines are really mean This ain't no gag. DADA's got a brand new hag She's truly a jerk.... She's really a spy Don't play her cheap and don't argue `bout "lies" She is Fudge's flunky, she'll smash and veto, Hang back Hal, she'll delete-oh El mosquito. Look out Harry MOM is in control You're in her grip now So you must now keep your head down; Don't wave your flag We've got a brand new hag In DADA you can't ever smirk Just get through the term... follow Herm, Your outburst of pique, that just ain't the right technique The thing's....don't let her harangue. Hey....come on Hey! Hey.....come on Hey! Hey...don't risk it...have a biscuit Come on. Hey! Hey! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 13:48:56 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 13:48:56 -0000 Subject: Babes and Skanks of GoF Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66422 I, Darrin Burnett, bring you the Babes and Skanks of GoF, when our boys start noticing girls and girls start rolling their eyes. Babes: Madame Rosmerta - Permanently at Top of Babe List Babe Fleur Delacour - Spin Your Head Into Jelly Babe Hermione Granger - She Cleans Up Good Babe Cho Chang - Fantasy Babe Madame Maxine - Big and Beautiful Babe Parvati Patil - First Date Babe Molly Weasley - Mother Figure Babe Skanks: Aunt Petunia - Auntie Dearest Skank Ginny Weasley - You Could Do Worse Than Neville, So Stop Bad-Mouthing Him Skank. Bellatrix Lestrange - Don't Know Who She Is Yet, But Just Sounds Bad Skank. Aunt Marge - Here on General Principles Skank Pansy Parkinson - Hermione Showed You Up, Didn't She, Bitch? Skank Padma Partil - Jeez, Cut Ron Some Slack Skank Moaning Myrtle - Hey! This Ain't No Peepshow! Skank Darrin -- I love the 80s moment: "E.T. taught me to hate the government, because they will come in and take your alien pet." From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Tue Jul 1 13:56:31 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 13:56:31 -0000 Subject: OoP: What was wrong with Sirius theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66423 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mlle_bienvenu" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tigerpatronus" > wrote: > > > Cool! I think we're unravelled the Mimbleplant! Also, excellent > > observation, Mlle Bienvenu, about who got sprayed with mimble > > stickpus and who was foolhardily brave and "mesmerized" by the > veil. > > Bravissimo! > > > > TK -- Tigerpatronus > > Mlle Bienvenu: -blushes- Actually I can't take credit for it, as I > was only paraphrasing the contents of that thread... This is just a far-fetched question but could "mimblewimble" have anything to do with "Mimble" as in Neville's plant? I just can't see them not having some wierd connection. Lots of nonsense words old Vernon could have uttered... Jennifer From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 14:10:41 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (Greicy de los Santos) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 07:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A start on the preOoP 150+ list In-Reply-To: <1057047193.4869.40118.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030701141041.2603.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66424 These were mine so I'll answer them, although maybe someone already has: 36. Hermione will keep a secret. Anyone? Did she? Yes she did, but it wasn't kept throughout the whole book. She didn't tell Ron or Harry that she wrote to Skeeter and she didn't tell anyone about her SNEAK charm. Greicy --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 14:25:06 2003 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 14:25:06 -0000 Subject: OOP: Giants, Elves, Centaurs (was "Giants") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66425 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ugadawg02" wrote: > > >>>Hermione is trying to make elves something they are not. So is > Hagrid. > > What is the elves true nature then and can we assume service is the > true nature since it is their current nature? > - RJ This reminds me of the creature at Milliway's (in the Hitchhiker's Guide to that Galaxy series) that was brought out to you live and then it BEGGED you to eat it. -Joe in SoFla From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Tue Jul 1 14:28:36 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 16:28:36 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP In defense of Harry...spoiler References: Message-ID: <003201c33fdd$0fe1bb80$6a056750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 66426 > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > In response to the following partial post, referring to Harry's > attempted use of an unforgivable curse: > > *quote* > ...If anything, I'm surprised it didn't work better. Harry does have > something of a mean streak, which could easily become sadistic (if it > can't be classified as such already)... > *end quote* > > now Nicole: > Excuse me??? I just had to come to Harry's defence here. How can > anyone say that he has a mean(or sadistic streak)in him? So he tried > an "unforgivable" curse on Bellatrix...I for one was cheering him on > and I am neither mean nor sadistic! ... edited... Me (Izaskun) Well, true, but don't forget the first chapter, when Harry meets Dudley before the Dementor's attack. He really wants his cousin to give him an excuse to fight him, to use his magic wand against him, he's so angry and frustrated that he feels the only thing that would help him is jinxing Dudley, and had the Dementor's not appeared I'm not so sure he wouldn't have cursed Big D. He would have taken advantadge of his powers, his magical ability against a poor muggle, and yes I'm talking about Dudley, he can be whatever you want, but he's still totally powerless against a wizard, Harry is more powerful and he knows it, so it really worried me when I read it. He's not aware of the true extent of his powers, or maybe he is (and that's even more scaring) and yet he's willing to use these powers against weaker people. Cheers, Izaskun From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Tue Jul 1 14:32:24 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 16:32:24 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] MM/SS References: <016c01c33f64$f36d1e40$da691e43@spock> Message-ID: <003e01c33fdd$974e28b0$6a056750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 66427 MC wrote: > > Also, where do people stand on the (unlikely) MM/SS ship?? Could > they be married?? Me (Izaskun) Well, they could be... but I don't think so, Minerva is 40 years older, for some reason I can't see SS falling for a 80 years old woman, and a Gryffindor to that. Cheers, Izaskun From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Jul 1 14:43:23 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 15:43:23 +0100 Subject: TBAY- Grand Opening!New Establishment! Message-ID: <5DA25D64-ABD2-11D7-B971-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66428 Nice day, thought I'd take a stroll along the shore, see the famous TBAY. First time I've been down here; heard about it of course. Not what I expected. A few sturdy barques out on the ocean. Thought it would be much more crowded and a bit more raucous. Bit messy too. Timbers strewn all along the beach, shipwrecked mariners begging for cooling, refreshing draughts of reviving potions - no, it's too late for those poor devils. Others gather in subdued clusters, swigging at memory modifiers, hoping one day to be able to forget the pain of disillusionment. They need lights, entertainment, intrigue! A diversion to put a spring in the step, to send the blood singing in their veins. Let's see what we can cobble together. Rummage in the rubbish, a fact here, a theory there, connect with a couple of suppositions. Hmm, yes! it's taking shape! What we need now is....... What's this! A PVC basque! Collect those discarded thongs, quick! Now we're in business. Well, almost. Need to write the Mission Statement. The frog turns into a Prince. Cliche. Overdone. We'll use the other one - Plain Jane turns into Man-eater. Brilliant! Right - she's always been bright, hardworking, basically OK. Had some challenging dentition, but that got fixed, almost by accident. Bushy hair? Not a problem; think Tina Turner. The Ball, that's where it all came together - taking a bit of extra effort; squeezing into the stiletto slingbacks, a dab of belladonna here, slap the mousse on there. And what happened? Only snagged the superstar of the broom-set, that's all. With lots and lots of wonder and amazement from the other boys and lots and lots of daggers from the girls. What fun! Not much of a challenge, though. Doesn't need brains at all. Wait a minute. The boys don't have a clue. About girls. Well, about anything, but particularly girls. So they need some-one to confide in; some-one who can offer help, advice, guidance when it comes to the hurly-burly of the chaise longue. Yes, now we're getting somewhere. The Mata Hari of Magic. The Salome of Spells. After all, giving advice can be quite entertaining and not necessarily selfless. Victor on one string, Ron on another; Harry thinking brotherly thoughts. Little does he know. Neville- easy meat. Puppets all of them. They're so gullible! Now, raise the illuminated sign over the door - not green; bad news. Red - much better. Switch on - M.A.D.A.M. W.H.I.P.L.A.S.H. Males Are Dim And Malleable. Wreaking Havoc In Pubescent Lads Attracts Scheming Hermione. Kneasy, prop. From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 13:37:18 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 13:37:18 -0000 Subject: Question about the inheritance thread... In-Reply-To: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30AFFB@msgmsp16.norwest.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66429 Jennifer: > Can I ask why everyone has assumed that Sirius did not make a Will? If he did- he could have left his property to anyone he wanted- including the Weasleys or Harry regardless of legal relationship. It is entirely possible he made a will. After all, for much of the book, he's been sitting around, listening to Kreacher rant and rave, probably thinking a lot about dark stuff like death. I'd say it's entirely possible he made one, in which case Harry would probably get the bulk of the estate and Lupin would be the executor (or whatever the parallel term is in the UK.) But, for story purposes, I can see it being delicious that Narcissa gets it and has it razed for a Fizzing Whizbee factory or something. Darrin I Love the 80s Moment: "Do you think David Hasselhoff resented KITT?" From saraandra at whsmithnet.co.uk Tue Jul 1 14:04:58 2003 From: saraandra at whsmithnet.co.uk (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 14:04:58 -0000 Subject: Ootp, Voldemort, Tom, and CoS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66430 I was thinking about the prediction and Voldemort, and that he'd worked out how to leave his 'sixteen-year self' in the diary, and later saying to Harry that his(Tom Riddle's) goal was no longer killing Mudbloods, but to kill Harry? Is the youthful, murderous Tom following a prophecy of his own? How does he know he'll need to leave behind a shade of himself? How, then, does that shade change its' goals and set out to kill Harry? Does Lord V. have any sort of mind link to this offshoot of himself? Does Lord V. tell y.m. Tom to concentrate on H.P.? So many questions - I can't help thinking Book 6 will be just as long, if not longer - Yippee! Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From fairecher at aol.com Tue Jul 1 14:16:03 2003 From: fairecher at aol.com (fairecher at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:16:03 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP : Snape's worst memory (as far as we know) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66431 In a message dated 6/30/2003 11:34:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ugadawg02 at yahoo.com writes: > There is that, but Harry is not the only one to call Dumbledore > simply Dumbledore is he? But he is the only one to call Snape, Snape. > Other adults may call him Severus, but I know of few that do not call > him Professor Snape, however almost all at one time have called > Dumbledore simply Dumbledore or at least refered to him that way in > front of Harry. Hi! This is my first post, but I've been reading messages for a couple of days. This is a great list! I find Professor Snape to be a very interesting character. I think it's obvious that he's on the side of "good" now, but it's hard for him to work with the people who ridiculed him when he was back in school. Dumbledore is probably the only person who ever ALWAYS treated him with respect, which would explain Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore. I think Dumbledore understands this part of Snape's personality, and he's really trying to help Harry get along with Snape by guiding him to treat Snape with respect, also! -- Cherie :) http://members.aol.com/justcherie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 14:56:11 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 14:56:11 -0000 Subject: Part 2 guaranteed 150+ in OoP revisited. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66432 The second instalment of the guaranteed list breakdown. Once we've all had a go at the whole list, I'll compile a shortlist of the 'mostest correctus' and the 'worstly inaccuratem'. Have a skim through and please add comments where ever you think one is needed. 57. Even the dumbest students (read Crabbe and Goyle) will somehow manage to pass their exams. This one wont even be answered till book six so being completely not related to OoP at all I think it could possibly be a contender for the "worstly inaccuratem" list. :b 58. Dumbledore's answers will raise more questions. They certainly did! This prediction is insightful but *possibly* contrived out of an interest in pre OoP spoiler material? If not its a ten out of ten and a contender for the best. 59. In addition to point 45, no matter how many questions are answered in book 5, there will be at least as many new questions that wont be answered till book 6. This is a very true prediction. Hotlist Votes anyone? 60. We will have read at least one character all wrong (in the Scabbers/Sirius/Quirrell vein) umm does James count or is that still totally hanging on book six. Indeed, we may have had Fudge read wrong. FINE put it on the list. 61. Krum will be grumpy. Krum will be entirely absent? any takers? This one is at the bottom of the sea. Should it be at the bottom of the list? 62. Fleur will still make the male students swoon. Fleur also absent. [Now I am sure theres a Fleur/Bill ship in this list somewheres that should look a bit better.] 63. Harry will leave Privett Drive in some kind of debacle. Umm lets see some broken plates, a glass the Moody's eye swum in and a couple of battered egos. I need help here is that strong enough? 64. Ron will tease Hermione about liking school too much and/or liking Lockhart in the past (from CoS) and/or her S.P.E.W. The and/or saves this from an embarring trip to the ocean floor. A point for getting something right,eh. 65. Hagrid will break a dish while talking to the trio in his hut. Who broke Hermione's mug, again? 66. Harry will dream about Voldemort - which will reflect what Voldemort was really doing at that moment (unbeknownst to Harry). This did happen. This d..did l..l..lead t..to [breaks down sobbing uncontrollably.] 67. Harry will be on the verge of telling Dumbledore possibly vital information, but withhold it for his usual reasons (i.e.not being believed, distaste of being fussed over, uncertainty of what he saw/heard). If you'd told me with guarantee pre OoP that *this* wouldn't sail. I would never have believed you. 68. Ron and Hermione will stay at Hogwarts for the Christmas holidays. So very very sad all these sunk. 69. Neville will once again attempt to surpass his personal best cauldron-melting record. He did indeed. 70. We will all read OoP WAY to fast, discuss in endlessly, reread it 20 times, and be waiting anxiously for book 6 to arrive!!! LOL I know I certainly have. 71. Something will be described as "moldy". Sirius' entire house? 72. The passwords will be um... unusual. (And Neville will forget them) This *has* to go on the most wrong list. LOL, am I! 73. Harry's scar will hurt. Too easy. Did anyone predict Harry's scar will fill with blinding pain that would make Harry feel like he had died? 74. There will be a reference to bodily functions (ie. bogeys, earwax, vomit) The extensive use of terms, relating to vomit, in the development of Fred and Georges joke products affords this prediction a lot of favour. 75. The Hogwarts diet will be high in coloseterol, er, cholesterol, oh, heck, FAT! Yes indeed. 76. McGonagall will say "Really Jordan. If you can't commentate in a non-biased way...". In true tradition, I am sure she did, but, was drowned out by choruses of "Weasley is our King!" 77. Someone from Slytherin will cheat at Quidditch. It was so. 78. The whole of Harry's year, plus all other featured students, will pick up their books from Diagon Alley on the same day. Ok Ok this one stumped me for a mo. Can this technically be true. A lot of them recieved their books in the same place. No, I guess not, because we don't see Luna and Neville till the train. However, this *can't* go on the worst list because its half right. 79. Harry will say "Er..." about a million times. I didn't keep count myself.... :-s 80. Someone will be interrupted before divulging a very important storyline clue. Are we all itching to know if "Snivelly lost his pants"? Or, is that not a clue, it's the biggest interruption that comes to mind though. 81. There will be yet another vague reference about Peeves and the Bloody Baron. I think there was wasn't there? 82. Mrs. Norris's eyes will glow, lamplike. ***This one in particular I remembered while reading OoP and indeed Mrs Norris' "Lamplike" eyes were given a mention. I vote for this on the best list for it's sheer entertainment value during my reading OoP. 83. Filch will threaten to go to Dumbledore. And he didn't. 84. Crabbe and Goyle will laugh stupidly. And they did. 85. Pansy will run with her gang of Slytherin girls. I am sure that she did. 86. Parvati and Lavender will ooh and aah. I am certain that they did once or twice. 87. Fred and George will scheme. Fred and George most certainly did scheme and a masterstroke, it was. 88. Dudley will eat. I don't think we saw him eat in OoP at all. Which is interesting since he had such a good excuse to eat lots of chocolate. Of course *he* didn't know that. 89. McGonagall will never be so ashamed by Gryffindor students. That was indeed quite true and should go to a short list. 90. Cho will be decent. Perhaps, perhaps not. She certainly was naive about her little friend. 91. Alicia, Katie, and Angelina will score. Just about, yes. 92. The giant squid will float lazily. ????? Did we see it? 93. Flitwick will squeak. Correct! 94. Voldemort will say "You lie". THere is, perhaps, a little of this in his 'argument'? with DD about death. 95. Wormtail will tremble. Absent fellow, Sunk! 96. Molly will explode at Gred and Forge, rightly, for some prank they've done. Ok, it may have happened but Harry came too late to see it. Half right? 97. The Trio, or at least Harry, will end up in the "Forbidden" Forest yet again. Does five times count? So much for forbidden,eh? 98. Something will smell like cabbage. Maybe....the stew? I don't think Mrs Figg smelled like cabbage this time around. 99. Professor Binns will drone. Yes he did. 100. There will be the usual twelve Christmas trees. Assuming they stay at Hogwarts for christmas. This is waterlogged before it leaves port. 101. One of Harry's Christmas presents will be a surprise from a mysterious stranger. (well, there's only a fifty-fifty chance on this one). Harry handed the mysterious stranger bearing gifts vibe to Bode. So fifty-fifty fares no worse than many of the "unsinkables" we presented. And now we have reached 101. Only about 100 more to go on the "guaranteed *will* be in OoP" list. Valky From Littlered32773 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 15:14:21 2003 From: Littlered32773 at yahoo.com (oz_widgeon) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 15:14:21 -0000 Subject: OOP In defense of Harry...spoiler In-Reply-To: <003201c33fdd$0fe1bb80$6a056750@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66433 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fridwulfa" wrote: > > > > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > > > Me (Izaskun) > Well, true, but don't forget the first chapter, when Harry meets Dudley > before the Dementor's attack. He really wants his cousin to give him an > excuse to fight him, to use his magic wand against him, he's so angry and > frustrated that he feels the only thing that would help him is jinxing > Dudley, and had the Dementor's not appeared I'm not so sure he wouldn't have > cursed Big D. He would have taken advantadge of his powers, his magical > ability against a poor muggle, and yes I'm talking about Dudley, he can be > whatever you want, but he's still totally powerless against a wizard, Harry > is more powerful and he knows it, so it really worried me when I read it. > He's not aware of the true extent of his powers, or maybe he is (and that's > even more scaring) and yet he's willing to use these powers against weaker > people. > > Cheers, Izaskun I don't think Harry would actually have used magic on Dudley. He migth threaten Dudley, but he *knew* he'd be expelled if he did, so I seriously doubt he would use it. From atroposgryffin at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 14:47:01 2003 From: atroposgryffin at yahoo.com (Susan Smith) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 14:47:01 -0000 Subject: Re OOP:Disappointing Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66434 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phyllis" wrote: snip, snip I am new to site this month but had similar questions-I can give you answers others gave me but cannot site post numbers-her goes: 1. Why are we exposed...so it doesn't seem as if any member of the Order other than Dumbledore could have kept a disguised Voldy out of the prophecy room. They did it to buy time and prepare for the coming war. 2. The Thestrals...when he saw his Mum die as a baby. JKR's answer (and posts) have said as baby he did not "know" death could not experience it-Mom's death was an unpleasantry to him, but he had no idea of meaning, consequences, etc. But many like you think it is a major Flint. I just can't help but wonder why her editors don't pick up on stuff like this! ...having Harry transported back to Privet Drive by another means (after all he went through at the end of book 4, it would have been understandable that he wouldn't have wanted to ride the carriages or the train with the other students) Harry has ridden carriages every year except first year. 3. Sirius' Death: Several things bothered me here. The first was the way he died ? taunting his cousin. How arrogant is that? Couldn't he have died a more noble death ? Many posts seems to think that both Sirius and Harry were more reckless, arrogant and "dying" (every pun intended) to get out and assist the order without waiting around. (Snape's memories, visits to firplace,Snuffles to train station all foreshadow that Sirius is going to do something rash, reckless, etc. Plus we know he has always shown alot of bravado (arrogance). Too the posts seem to think ift was a valuable life lesson for Harry-learn from Sirius' mistake type thing-fools rush in where angels fear to tread. It is prpearing him for the war to come. 4. The Prophecy: We had already pretty much figured this out ?the only twist for me was that it could have been Neville. Your comments mimic many other posts on this. 5. Inconsistencies/Unanswered Questions: The last time we saw the Maurader's Map in book 4, it was in Barty Crouch Jr.'s possession Many think its a big FLINT, others feel Dd returned to Harry just as he did invisibility cape in past. Percy's prefect badge was silver in SS/PS, but Ron's is gold and scarlet.. Have not seen a post on this, but please, times and fashions change-I think its cool that it mimics house colors. It also mimics the scarves in the films. Sirius mentions Harry's grandparents, but Harry doesn't ask anything about them. Posts seem to think that after 5 years he is just now learning truth about his Mom and Dad, so we can wait a book or two for info on other relatives. Hagrid still can't do magic even though he was cleared in CoS and JKR has said in interviews that he's now allowed to do magic. Perhaps Hagrid is the person JKR has referred to who will learn magic late in life. After all just because he has a wand does not mean he can do a lot with it-he only made it part of the way through school and we do not know what type of student he was. Voldemort's willingness to spare Lily when he had tried to kill her three previous times and was killing off everyone in the original Order one by one... We do not know that she was the target the 3 previous times- just that she was ther when he was thrice defeated-target could have been other OoP people, Neville, Harry, etc. Also several posts speculating that V. is related to Evans family, and also that he was giving Lily a chance to turn away from order and sacrifice Harry. Most of this book was about CHOICES people make and the Antecedents to their choices affecting the choice and the choice itself affecting the consequences, yada, yada. To some of your other comments: Travel by Knight bus included company of several order members, and/or order members in disguise. So, Halloween was missed-so was Harry's birthday, Quidditch championship, and House cup, but, this book was about the Order, preparing for war, and the realm of the MoM not really about details at Hogwarts. Harry going to the trouble of using the fire in Umbridge's office instead of using the 2-way mirror to talk to Sirius. Lots of post on this-they feel that in typical Harry fashion he threw it in his trunk and did not give it another thought-he has done this before with gifts (Sirius' knife would have come in handy in Triwizard task #2, and pocket sneakoscope Ron got for him in Egypt (PoA) has been growing mold in old sock) Also lot of posts on foreshadowing that James and Sirius used similar mirrors to talk during detention-Did James have his on him when he died? Can Harry locate Sirius' mirror and use it now that his is broken? Will we be hearing from the dead maurauders again? No explanation of why the Order is called "The Order of the Phoenix. The posts seem to think because of Dd involvement (that Order is the "true" Dd's army)and he is easily associated with Phoenix, also symbolism in Phoenix characteristics unwavering loyalty, unusually strong carry heavy burdens); healing powers, etc. These qualities describe Order, too (well, except for Mundungus?) 6. Harry's temper...but I thought his temperament change was a bit too abrupt to be believable. Posts seem to think adolescent angst, frustration, mimics Sirius, sets ground for "emotion" to be key to V.'s destruction and Occlumency to be invaluable, etc. 7. Dumbledore-Harry relationship: The posts have had a field day with this one ranging from "pure love" references as early as SS to maybe Dd is related to Harry by blood, ie Great Grandfather or something. Also, Dd hails from Gryffindor so he could be related to Godric himself, etc. No Tricks: The posts feel new characters were introduced, old characters were developed (ie Ginny and Neville); basic skill development and continued training was emphasized, etc. After all V. is the most powerful Dark wizard who does not hesitate to do things Dd will not (ie use Unforgiveable curses, kill others (if he can avoid it), etc.) So why use tricks-look ahead, prepare for War. That being said, there actually were some things I liked: > 1. I was happy to see Ron get a bit of glory for once. ME too! 2. There's hope for a Harry-Hermione SHIP ? Hermione seems to have been monitoring Harry's Cho crush, and Harry exclaims that Hermione isn't ugly. I just hope JKR comes up with someone for Ron... Most posts think Harry and Ginny are more compatible given shared V. experience and Ginny's growth into a little spitfire, her flair for DADA (batwing hexes, etc., and her love of Quidditch-she and Harry have so much in common. 3. I guessed correctly on the Room of Requirement! Looks like most of the detectives out there did, too. 4. Neville's improvement under Harry's defense against the dark arts teaching. The posts are going wild on subject of Neville and loved his increasing skill and loyalty. Many speculate he may still be involved either solo or with Harry in the vanquishment of V. A lot of posts also think he sufferred from some of the "spillover" from the charms Bellatrix cast on his folks-and prior confusion, bumbling, clutz problems etc. were the after effects but he is coming out of those. They also seem to think that the numerous gum wrappers passed to him from his mother are some major clue to V. downfall. 5. Finding out that Arabella Figg is a squib, and that squibs can communicate with their cats. 6. Wondering what Dudley heard when attacked by the dementors. Lots of posts hoping Dudley and/or Petunia will play bigger roles and have knowledge or talents which have been hidden, after all why attack Dudley? 7. Hermione's patronus is an otter! JKR said in an interview that she loved otters! Plus, otters have big teeth-maybe a reminder of H.'s unique facial feature. Plus H.'s parents are both dentists! Hope this helps you out somewhat and allows you to wade through a thousand or so posts quickly. Susan (Atropos) From sthimons at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 15:03:36 2003 From: sthimons at hotmail.com (stephen6341) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 15:03:36 -0000 Subject: OoTP: Voldemort and Death Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66435 OK, I've been kind of lurking here for a long time and thought I should finally post (I actually have something intelligent to add-- maybe). But first, just wanted to thank everyone here. This list is great, and it has just fueled my love for Harry Potter. Everyone here is ridiculously cool. S P O I L E R S P A C E OK then, on to my thoughts. First, just like everyone else, I have not been able to keep up on everything here so if I'm repeating, I apologize. Also, you guys know a lot more about all this stuff than I do, so please shoot holes in all this, I'm just going to babble a bit. Anyway, as I read the book and have been reading some of the messages I've had a bunch of thoughts. First some real quick ones. Everyone's debated Harry's use of the Cruciatus Curse and DD's failings. Personally, this is what gives the book it's flavor to me and is not a problem. I love that Harry is not necessarily perfect and is put in a morally murky position and doesn't always choose what people view as the right thing. And DD is not perfect. And both of these two were not perfect and made mistakes because they loved...Harry loved Sirius enough to use the curse (and it was probably b/c the curse was made out of love that it wasn't that effective) and DD made his mistake b/c he loved Harry. Those to me will always be forgivable mistakes b/c they are not driven by self- gain, but by intense emotions...exactly what DD says seperates HP from LV. OK, second quick point. When Hermione mentioned you can't hurt a baby (with the baby DE), did anyone else think that has anything to do with why Harry wasn't harmed by LV when he was a baby? I know it's a long shot and it probably has more to do with Lily's love for Harry, but just a thought. OK, last point and this is my major one (kind of realizing this should have been 2 posts now so I'll try to keep it short). While I don't think anyone would argue that the overriding theme of these books is love (i.e., Lily's love saved Harry, Harry's heart is exactly what LV doesn't have), I think that needs to be expanded one more step. One of JKR's big things to me is death is not the worst thing in the world. Already she has "killed" Harry's parents, Sirius, and Cedric. The last few chapters had DD pointing out that LV's biggest fault is that he views death as the worst possible outcome. I don't think LV and DD had a specific understanding of what would be worse than death when that whole conversation was going on. I think DD knew that things like being without love, not having friends/family, etc were all a fate worse than death. LV can't even begin to grasp this. He doesn't realize if that he hadn't feared death so much, he would have never gone after Harry as a baby and then fallen out of power. His fear of death in that instance led to his demise. Death to DD is not something to be feared b/c if you spend your life fearing death, you never live (e.g., LV). And if you start looking back on some of the books you see this theme a bit. In PS/SS, the guy (can't remember his name) gave up eternal life to have the stone destroyed and DD didn't seem very fazed by it. In PoA, Harry spares Wormtail even though he clearly deserved to die. In OoTP DD doesn't even contemplate killing the DE's he captures knowing full well they are likely to escape. Also, in OoTP, when LV possessed Harry at the end what forced him out of Harry's body? Was it Harry's love for Sirius? Probably. But even more so, it was Harry's lack of fear about death. He wanted DD to kill him. He knew his death wouldn't be the worst thing that can possibly happen and that LV's death would be worth his own death and that there is some life after death (he knew he would see Sirius). That, in my mind, scared LV out of Harry. All of this is confirmed (again, at least to me!) in the end when Harry asks Nick those questions. Nick tells him that he is weak and that's why he chose being a ghost. That some wizards need to leave their imprint on the earth with former shells of themselves. What he didn't say, but what I implied is that the brave wizards understand that they will live imprints on this earth with the memories of their actions after they are gone and there is no need to stick around to constantly remind people that they were once here. Finally, when Luna mentions to Harry that she will see her mom again (the voices behind the veil) it also confirms that death is not the end (at least to JKR). Now, after all this, what does it mean for the rest of the series? Unfortunately I think it means more deaths, potentially many more. JKR is going to illustrate that the idea that valuing love, friendship, honor and compassion more than fearing death is what separates good from bad. So, I fear there will be many sacrifices at the end to prove this point. Of course, a lot of me hopes I'm wrong. Sorry to be so long winded, I would love to get other opinions and I hope this makes some sense. Steve From marybear82 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 15:24:32 2003 From: marybear82 at yahoo.com (Mary) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 15:24:32 -0000 Subject: OOtP: Misunderstood Molly (Was Molly's Shortcomings) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66436 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > It's hard to describe what its like when you've been working like a > maniac for thirty hours straight and you walk into a place where > there's a hot meal, or even just a cup of tea waiting for you (-8. > > I'm sure Molly would be perfectly capable of doing other things - and > perfectly willing too. But her contribution is important even as it > is. > > And, frankly, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Order is keeping > her doing what she is doing *because* she has Ron and Ginny to take > care of. She still has minor children in her care, and while we see > the Order say that they will take care of them if they have to, they > must know the best thing they can do for those kids is keep Molly > Weasley alive. Now me: Are we sure that Molly is just cookin', cleanin', and naggin' the hell out of everybody? ;) I, like everyone else, blew through the book in a couple of days, but I'm reading it aloud to my family now, and catching a few of J.K.R.'s "throwaways." We just read chapter 17, in which Sirius has a conversation with the trio about setting up D.A. He dutifully recounts Molly's message to them to cease and desist their little adventure, then explains that: "She would have written all this to you, but if the owl had been intercepted, you all would have been in real trouble, and she can't say it for herself because she's on duty for tonight." "On duty doing what?" said Ron quickly. "Never you mind, just stuff for the Order." said Sirius. (pg 371 U.S.) What everyone forgets is that just about everyone in the Order is in the business of risking life and limb to protect those they love. Emotions are running high, and things are said in the heat of the moment that probably should not be said. Molly, especially, has more at risk than anyone. There is no greater source of anxiety to a mother than having her children in danger - and all of hers (and yes - Harry is included here) are. Many moms will do anything - SAY anything to keep them safely under her control. It may not be healthy, but it IS human. That's why I love J.K.R.'s portrayal of Molly. She is NOT June Cleaver, as mentioned in another post - she is scattered and distracted, unorganized and cranky - but she makes a home (not a perfect one, but a reasonably happy one) whereever she is, and loves her family fiercely. So fiercely, that she tends to blunder when she feels them slipping away from her - hence her strained relationship with her twins, and her nearly hysterical joy at Ron becoming a prefect. Is her behavior wildly inconsistent? You bet! That's what makes her such an interesting character, and the one I identify most closely with. The fact that she's carrying these tremendous fears around with her, even as she risks her own life for the order raises her to goddess status in my book. -Mary (Another plump, red-headed mom who would love to tip a few back with Molly and see what truths emerge) From montysgirl79 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 15:05:18 2003 From: montysgirl79 at yahoo.com (Maidlyn) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 08:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and the Grangers (some OOP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030701150518.48424.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66437 --- Scott wrote: > Overall I can't decide if it feels like Hermione is > at fault here or > if her parents are. I suppose there's always the > alternative that > *no one* is at fault, but I still feel a subtext of > "strained parent > child relationship" whenever the Grangers are > mentioned. > I don't pretend to know much about the psyche of a > typical British > Boarding school child, but I find it odd that they > never seem to get > homesick (especially Hermione and other muggle-borns > and esp. during > the first year or two). I know Harry isn't going to > miss the > Dursley's but for someone like Hermione, coming from > what one hopes > is a loving and supportive household and going into > a whole new > world (literally), this can't be that easy. And at > eleven? I don't > think I would've felt comfortable departing from my > family at this > age; can anyone who lived in a boarding school speak > of their own > experiences? > I write: This has puzzled me too. It is possible that in OOP she is at Grimmauld palace because Dumbledore is afraid that she might be attacked. I did actually go to boarding school but I loved coming home. Everyone went home for Christmas and Easter and we were all glad too. I mean school got boring after awhile. About homesickness I was homesick in the beginning and it was hard! I imagine that initally being muggle born at Hogwarts would be quite difficult I mean, a new school and subjects you never even knew existed. If I were the Grangers I would be kind of annoyed that my only child spent so much time away from home. (I am assuming she is an only child, she doesn't ever mention siblings but I don't want to start a debate about that!) I'm guessing that what happened though is that JKR made Hermione a muggle born and the smartest in their class so as to show to us the reader and the people in the books that being a pureblood doesn't make you a better witch. But this means that as muggles her parents don't really have any place in the story because they aren't a part of the WW. It does seem a shame though that they are missing out on their daughter's growing up. Maidlyn whose father has finally decided to start reading OOP! Its about time I've had the book for over a week! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From icewalker08 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 14:46:22 2003 From: icewalker08 at yahoo.com (icewalker08) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 14:46:22 -0000 Subject: Continue to snape half-vampire theory by a newbie :)(long!) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66438 Hello every body : This my first post here though i am a fan of HP saga for about 4 years :) after reading book five for second time (atfirst time i only found more questions!!) many facts appeared to me so i thought to share some of them here and some other HP boards which i go sometimes and enjoy reading :)(thoeories ofcourse , with all respect for fanfic writers i dont read fanfics) There is a snape being vampire or half-vampire theory allaround which now,after reading book 5,i am 100% agree with it! YES he is a half-vampire,first here are the old clues,though as other dear HPfans guessed them before (book 1-4) i will pass them fast: Book one:All Quirrel stuffs:looking for vampire book,garlic & saying that Snape is like a big bat and all other points that JKR said about Snape which brings vampire in your mind... Book two:Again resembles to vampires :sallow skin ,gliding over like a large and malevolent bat and ........ Book three:Lupin's vampire essay right after werewolf essay,again resembles and .... Book four:again resembles or points In another word ,as all you knew before,JKR mentioned vampires many times in her books and most of them have been when which Snape has been around. and now....the clues in book 5 which atlast make me accept that he is half-vampire: Book five :there are again resembles and points specially in the Snape's Worst Memory (which i am sure it is his worst memory in harry's point of view not snape) anyway here my guesses : 1)Snape-the-teenager had a stringy, pallid look about him, like a plant kept in the dark. His hair was lank and greasy and was flopping on to the table, his hooked nose barely half an inch from the surface of the parchment as he scribbled. ........skinny, pallid legs ........a greasy-haired teenager sat alone in a dark bedroom, pointing his wand at the ceiling, shooting down flies >>>>again resembles and also why JKR mentioned specially a dark room? and why he looked at his parchment so closely while he can catch the small flies in dark room? isnt that because his eyes cant see in light day very good but see excellent in dark? 2)call him Snivellus,Greasy hair (as past books) and pair of greying underpants >>>do you know that vampires or half-vampires dont like running water??well maybe he washs his face,hair and cloths VERY SELDOM cause he doesnt like water (i dont mean it harms him,no he is half vampire but he doesnt like it as he doesnt like light but can bear it) though i must add this calling him Snivellus might have another reason which i am not 100% sure about it and greying underpants can be answered in no.4 too. 3)'Well,' said James, appearing to deliberate the point, 'it's more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean ' >>>>>In FB books it said :The centaurs objected to being classed as Beings along with vampires.... i guess here james played with words and JKR has given us the clue before :Exist can also mean as ,he is being ...beings 4)called him OLD Snivelly (also JKR called him old snape in Albert hall) >>>>well vampires or half ones are NOT imortal (as i read ) but they do age at one-tenth the human rate. So, for every ten years that pass, they only grow one year older. (Half-vampires age at one-fifth the human rate.) 5)Snape was hanging upside-down in the air.... >>>>arent the bats usually hanging upside-down from trees???james did it by mean. 6)gripping Harry's arm so tightly Harry's hand was starting to feel numb....... >>>>although vampires are so thin , they are sooo powerful so i guess JKR wanted to show us this point. Well he can be half-vampire or something like that,yes maybe some of you say that even half-vampires need human blood even if they can act like human , but in answer i must say it is magic world ,JKR magic world !.Didnt Lockhart told them a story of a vampire who had been unable to eat anything except lettuce since Lockhart had dealt with him? (well we know he didnt do that himself ;) but someone should have done it!atleast there must be magic like that) and how he became one?well several ways ....among them are :The persons who turn vampires are generally wizards, witches Those who practiced black magic ,or child of vampire and normal human or maybe he cursed when he was child (remember the small child which harry seen in his memory , JkR just mention him as black haired child,for first time we havent the Greasy word!) Small note here:i guess Hermione knows it (in book 2 ,JKR mentioned for about 4 times! that she is reading "Voyages with Vampires"book ,in no other places she mentioned the book that she read or carries for 4 times!)she may still in doubt or as she trusts DD , keep it as secret. and about what JKR said in Albert hall about DADA post:she said DD wanted to see what he will do as potion master first ....so she cleared us :) he is half vampire -half human and DD thinks that dark arts will awake his dark part more. atlast Thank you for reading my post :)i waiting to hear your comments :) also...i want to say that atlast after reading book five i found the main plot of harry potter saga too!i am so excited about that but i decided to not reveal it as i know nobody wants to spoiled!!! also its JKR book not me , so better i keep its secret!i am 98% sure!i said my idea about vampire story cause many ppl said that before and it seems she wants us to know that but main plot is another thing.ofcourse some details can be different but i am sure. i found all answers in this plot :) the important clues are in books 1,3 and 5 specially book three ,infact book 5 helped me to find keys in book three . i hope she doesnt change this plot because IT IS AWESOME :)) From cottoncandyisyummy at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 13:12:39 2003 From: cottoncandyisyummy at hotmail.com (ravenclaws_luna_lovegood) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 13:12:39 -0000 Subject: OoP:I'm not resentful. I am mad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66439 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tamara" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, CareALotsClouds at a... wrote: > > In a message dated 23/06/03 03:19:04 GMT Daylight Time, > > glcherry at b... writes: > > > > > > > I've read OoP, one time (Dad has it now, Mom wants it next) and > I'm > > > not too sure I want to ever read it again, much less the next > two. But > > > that's okay, there is another Nation out there, the > IMAGINATION,and in > > > mine Sirius is not dead, and that's my story, and I'm sticking to > it. > > > > > > Lorrie > > > > You do that... (sheesh) > > > > > LOL, yeah..... maybe you should be at St. Mungo's? I'm not at all > sad that Sirius died. I think he would have lead Harry in the wrong > direction. Not on purpose mind you, just because he wasn't exactly > the best to be a mentor to a youngman. And I never felt > emotionally "close" to him. Hell, I was in more of a state when I > thought they were going to kill off McGonagall! Now THAT would have > been tragic! > > Tamara You guys aren't sad! You guys don't know what we're going through! We're all down in the pits and I know I'm gonna be there for a long time, we don't need you guys to harp on us like that!You were worked up at just the thought of Mcgonagall dying, well for us, Sirius actually DID die! It's been more than a week since I read the book, and I was still on the verge of crying again last night. I would have rather that Harry himself die instead of Sirius! Too bad for me we need harry to continue the books and can't kill him off 'til the end Very sad and angry that people mocked our sadness -Luna From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 15:32:45 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 15:32:45 -0000 Subject: OOP: Ron's Prefect Badge (WAS: OOP: Disappointing) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66440 Susan Smith (atroposgryffin) wrote: > Quoting me (Phyllis): Percy's prefect badge was silver in SS/PS, > but Ron's is gold and scarlet.. > > Have not seen a post on this, but please, times and > fashions change-I think its cool that it mimics house colors. It > also mimics the scarves in the films. Now me again: I could accept this except: "He [Harry] had seen a badge *just like this* on Percy's chest on his very first day at Hogwarts" (OoP, Ch. 9, p. 148 UK ed., my emphasis). It's a flint, IMO. ~Phyllis From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 15:39:57 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 15:39:57 -0000 Subject: OOP: Disappointing AND Excellent In-Reply-To: <011301c33f8d$1ec56f20$9ddc5644@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66441 Debbie (elfundeb) wrote: > I found myself initially disappointed with OOP. Oddly, one of my > sources of dissatisfaction was the number of things I'd predicted > correctly, which took away any sense of excitement at the unfolding > of events. Oh, I agree completely. I read the first four books before I joined HPfGU and started analyzing and theorizing, and I was wondering whether I inadvertently denied myself the pleasure of discovery in OoP by working a lot of the plot points out ahead of time. Oh, well... Debbie: > I feel comfortable, though, that this ending will not be repeated; > the parallels between the ending of each book and the > correspondingly numbered obstacle to the philosopher's stone seemed > more apparent than ever this time around. Great idea - I've never made that connection before! Debbie: > I didn't find the darkness of OOP disturbing. In fact, I thought > GoF was a darker book in many ways. Once again, I completely agree, and am at a loss to explain why OoP is being referred to so often in the media as a darker book. IMO, what made GoF a darker book was the extent of our exposure to Voldemort, the lengths he went to do obtain Harry's blood for his recorporation potion and how close to death Harry was in the graveyard. Voldemort only makes a brief appearance at the end of OoP and Harry is hit with the AK out of nowhere - there was not as much Harry-Voldemort lead-up like there was in GoF to get our hearts racing. ~Phyllis From pinguthegreek at pinguthegreek.net Tue Jul 1 15:43:06 2003 From: pinguthegreek at pinguthegreek.net (Pinguthegreek) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 16:43:06 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOtP: Misunderstood Molly (Was Molly's Shortcomings) References: Message-ID: <01b801c33fe7$7afb7140$395fc487@personal> No: HPFGUIDX 66442 Mary said : What everyone forgets is that just about everyone in the Order is in the business of risking life and limb to protect those they love. Emotions are running high, and things are said in the heat of the moment that probably should not be said. Molly, especially, has more at risk than anyone. There is no greater source of anxiety to a mother than having her children in danger - and all of hers (and yes - Harry is included here) are. Many moms will do anything - SAY anything to keep them safely under her control. It may not be healthy, but it IS human. That's why I love J.K.R.'s portrayal of Molly. She is NOT June Cleaver, as mentioned in another post - she is scattered and distracted, unorganized and cranky - but she makes a home (not a perfect one, but a reasonably happy one) whereever she is, and loves her family fiercely. So fiercely, that she tends to blunder when she feels them slipping away from her - hence her strained relationship with her twins, and her nearly hysterical joy at Ron becoming a prefect. Is her behavior wildly inconsistent? You bet! That's what makes her such an interesting character, and the one I identify most closely with. The fact that she's carrying these tremendous fears around with her, even as she risks her own life for the order raises her to goddess status in my book. I just want to add something here too : She's also probably asking herself a lot of questions about her parenting, following Percy's behaviour. In my mind. she is trying to work out how and why he said what he did. Did she really raise a son of hers that way ? If I were her, I would probably swing too far in the direction of doing anything to keep the rest of my family safe and together in the face of such a predicament. This woman is frantic throughout the whole book. Don't forget that she may well be aware of the level of danger Harry faces, not just that he is in danger. Even if she does not know the prophecy. I think that Molly is admirable not as a domestic goddess but as a human being. In the face of everything she is still there. I love her strength. Michelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Tue Jul 1 15:48:48 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 15:48:48 -0000 Subject: Question about the inheritance thread... In-Reply-To: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30AFFB@msgmsp16.norwest.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66443 Jennifer: Can I ask why everyone has assumed that Sirius did not make a Will? If he did- he could have left his property to anyone he wanted- including the Weasleys or Harry regardless of legal relationship. Does it say somewhere that he didn't do this that I missed? My assumption is that he left everything to Harry who was the closest thing he had to a son. Me (Bill): I do not think that he was able to leave the Black legacy to Harry. If it were possible to leave it to someone other than the closest living relative, then Sirius would never have inherited from Mrs. Black, who despised him. I expect that there is some form of binding magical contract on the estate, forcing the inheritance issue. Bill From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Jul 1 14:35:40 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 15:35:40 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Giants, Elves, Centaurs (was "Giants") References: Message-ID: <3F019C3C.000001.45339@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 66444 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ugadawg02" wrote: > > >>>Hermione is trying to make elves something they are not. So is > Hagrid. > First sorry for the lousy attribution on this but I missed the original post so I just clipped it from someone else's reply. Yes - that's it exactly. It's what annoys me about SPEW. It's all very well giving them a choice and educating them so they can make that choice, but Hermione is trying to make the choice for them. By trying to force them to be free she's simply exchanging one form of servitude for another. By trying to free them against their will she's acting no differently than the people like Malfoy who take advantage of the Elves' servitude in the first place. They simply don't have the correct frame of reference in most cases to be able to cope with being free - look how Winky reacted after all. K From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Jul 1 15:57:02 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 15:57:02 -0000 Subject: OOP: Darker (wasDisappointing AND Excellent) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66445 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phyllis" wrote: > > I didn't find the darkness of OOP disturbing. In fact, I thought > > GoF was a darker book in many ways. > > Once again, I completely agree, and am at a loss to explain why OoP > is being referred to so often in the media as a darker book. IMO, > what made GoF a darker book was the extent of our exposure to > Voldemort, the lengths he went to do obtain Harry's blood for his > recorporation potion and how close to death Harry was in the > graveyard. Voldemort only makes a brief appearance at the end of OoP > and Harry is hit with the AK out of nowhere - there was not as much > Harry-Voldemort lead-up like there was in GoF to get our hearts > racing. I thought OoP was a much darker book in tone throughout its entire length. From Harry's heightened feelings of isolation in the very first chapter, through the oppressive atmosphere of 12 Grimmauld Place to the insidious tightening of the Ministry's noose around Hogwarts to Harry's ominous dreams of the hallway and the door to the potential loss of personal privacy in communication between people (intercpeted letters, fireplace lurkeers, etc.), the entire feel of the book was darker to me. Voldemort and the DEs were almost an afterthought. In fact, the battle scene felt good, in a way, because the enemy there was identified and personified and could actually be fought against openly. Marianne From jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com Tue Jul 1 15:57:47 2003 From: jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com (jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:57:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question about the inheritance thread... Message-ID: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30B019@msgmsp16.norwest.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66446 Me (Bill): I do not think that he was able to leave the Black legacy to Harry. If it were possible to leave it to someone other than the closest living relative, then Sirius would never have inherited from Mrs. Black, who despised him. I expect that there is some form of binding magical contract on the estate, forcing the inheritance issue. Bill There did use to be (and may still be for all I know) a peculiar system in the UK (and elsewhere) that prohibited the free devise of property- property could be entailed so that it HAD to pass to the eldest son- or eldest male relative if there was no son (which left many widows at the mercy of their own sons since the property title changed hands at the death of the husband.) You'll see this in Pride and Prejudice- (and my understanding is that JKR is an Austen fan.) Perhaps that's what's going on here? Jennifer From jen60565 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 15:58:35 2003 From: jen60565 at aol.com (txjen70) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 15:58:35 -0000 Subject: Question about Ron(No spoilers really) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66447 I never realized until joining this group how may people do not like the character of Ron and I was wondering why? Most people I know who read the book are like me and pretty much like all the characters but especially the friendship of the trio. Harry is the hero so of course he comes first, but we also love ROn adn Hermione and feel that without either of these two, Harry would not be able to get through what life has thrown at him. Obviously they are not there for the final confrontations, but there is nothing either of them wouldn't do for him and they are pretty much a safe harbor for him in so many ways. I admit I was frustrated with the way I percieved Hermione came across in OOTP, but only because I feel they are doing her an injustice. But I would never want anything bad to happen to her or her to turn traitor or for her to have her dreams crushed either. I don't think one character should have to be beaten down to bolster another one up. I think the only other character, other than the ones intended to be evil, I have not liked has been Ginny. I felt she was a weak character and only wanted her to die if a Weasley had to die anyway. But this book really turned my views around on her. She has finally developed as a character. So I was just wondering if anyone would like to share their views on why they don't like the character of Ron, because he seems the most beat up character around here. And if I get no replies, that's cool. I was just wondering. From jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com Tue Jul 1 15:59:20 2003 From: jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com (jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:59:20 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question about the inheritance thread... Message-ID: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30B01A@msgmsp16.norwest.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66448 Let me add- I don't have my book- but was the property actually in Sirius' mother's name? -----Original Message----- From: jennifer.r.junker at WellsFargo.COM [mailto:jennifer.r.junker at WellsFargo.COM] Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:58 AM To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question about the inheritance thread... Me (Bill): I do not think that he was able to leave the Black legacy to Harry. If it were possible to leave it to someone other than the closest living relative, then Sirius would never have inherited from Mrs. Black, who despised him. I expect that there is some form of binding magical contract on the estate, forcing the inheritance issue. Bill There did use to be (and may still be for all I know) a peculiar system in the UK (and elsewhere) that prohibited the free devise of property- property could be entailed so that it HAD to pass to the eldest son- or eldest male relative if there was no son (which left many widows at the mercy of their own sons since the property title changed hands at the death of the husband.) You'll see this in Pride and Prejudice- (and my understanding is that JKR is an Austen fan.) Perhaps that's what's going on here? Jennifer ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! 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Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From spacemonkey at noos.fr Tue Jul 1 15:43:04 2003 From: spacemonkey at noos.fr (spacemonkey_amn) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 17:43:04 +0200 Subject: OOP: ESE!Who? In retaliation to the ESE!Lupin theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66449 It's not really about OOP but it's gonna have spoilers... * * * * * Hi! I only joined this list after reading OOTP ( which I loved btw and I'll always cry for Sirius). I read the ESE!Lupin theory and it had me jumping off the walls, banging my head on said walls, crying and go all desperate... But crying and screaming sin't really productive so here's my theory: Remus is NOT evil... Somebody else is. Why Remus can't be ESE: 1 - He's Remuuuuuuuus! [Not so much of a point] . But come ooooonnnn , Remus! [nope, still not a point] Oooh Sh** **! 2 - He's a marauder- [So was Peter]. Sh** **! 3 - Remus is ESS ( and not ESE! he is ever so SEXY) [JKR never said so... actually she said he's got grey hair and shadows under his eyes and-] Sh** **! He's only got shadows after the full moon. Lots of young guys can have grey hair and look dead sexy, example: Richard Gere didn't look so bad in Pretty woman, neither does Mark Harmon... So Remus is ESS, you just need to take him on a good day... [but being EES doesn't make you a good guy... Look at Tom Riddle] Somebody's got duck tape? 4 - Remus was always nice: OOTP: he comforted Molly after the boggart incident, and when she was sad about Percy. He defended Sirius against Molly when she talked about Azkaban.and he went to the werewolf at the hospital [ that was only survival instinct telling him to get as far away as possible from Molly and Arthur... besides, he was probably only recruiting new werewolf to voldemort's cause...] No, not in front of the order. You might think Remus is ESE but he's not ever so stupid. No, really, I don't see him as bad guy material[except that he's a werewo-] Silencio! 5 - In HP&POA: he was genuinely moved when he saw Harry's patronus being a stag during the Quidditch match. Which means he really loved ( in a brotherly kind of way) James. Ditto in HP and OOTP: he was really moved when Sirius went through the veil ( voice breaking, hard to talk...) so he did care about him. 6 - He doesn't have dangerous creature as pets, he only captures them for his DADA lessons. He doesn't kill them afterwards, he gives them to Hagrid because he *knows* Hagrid just loves taking care of dangerous creatures 7 - How did Lupin know he hadn't eaten the hippogriff in POA: first we don't know how much Remus usually remembers in the morning. (I don't think we do, at least), he might go totally out of his mind during the fool moon but remember what happened in the morning... Second, even if Remus usually never remembers anything in normal circumstances, he did take Snape's potion except for the last day, so maybe, even if that didn't prevent him from going totally beserk, it helped him remember a few things in the morning... Third, even if he had no memory whatsoever about what happened that night, if he woke up feeling hungry and with no blood on himself or in his mouth, that might give him a clue that he didn't eat an entire hippogriff. 8 - HP&OOTP: Remus prevented Harry to go through the veil... why would he if was really a bad guy... he could have just been a little slow to react and let Harry go and pooof! no more Harry. So why did he save Harry? 'cause Voldemort needed the prophecy? but he needed the prophecy because he thought it was a how-to-kill-harry prophecy, did he not? If we're gonna play the ESE game then why couldn't it be HAGRID? (not that I really believe it, but better him than Remus).it's just desperate me trying to lay the blame on somebody else so that there's no chance of this actually being true but: 0 - OK, Hagrid seems like a nice chap and all.. but so did fake Moody, in his own kind of way. 1 - HP&GOF: Hagrid is half giant, which doesn't make him 'bad' but makes him a victim of prejudice from the WW and so he can be resentful, which gives him a motive 2 - HP&COS: Hagrid was wrongfully accused by the WW to have opened the chamber of secret, got expelled from Hogwarts and had his wand snapped and he was sent to Azkaban... another reason to be resentful... 3 - Hagrid does have dangerous pet creatures: dragons, three headed dogs, giant spiders and so on... and that's cannon and also, Is Hagrid that trustworthy? 4 - HP and the PS: he told Quirrel how to get past Fluffy and so helped Voldemort getting to the philosopher's stone 5 - HP&PS: Hagrid kept giving clues to Harry and Co about what was really going on about the philosopher's stone, which later lead them to the search for it and face Voldemort. OK, Hagrid could just be an idiot with his heart in the right place but his brain having taken a vacation miles away and an overworking mouth... Or he could just be working for Voldemort. 6 - HP&PS: Hagrid lead Harry, Hermione, Ron and Draco to the forbidden forrest, Left Harry on his own with Draco... And Harry got to face Voldemort!!! Hadn't it been for Firenze, Harry would be dead by now. 7 - HP&COS: Hagrid has dangerous pets...He even lead Harry and Ron to one of his dear pet's lair. Follow the spiders, HA! If it weren't for Arthur's car, they would be both spider meat by now ( and that would be a shame because the series would have ended there without us ever meeting either Remus or Sirius) 8 - HP & COS: Hagrid has some funny business in knockturn alley 9 - HP&GOF: Hagrid never once put Harry's life in danger ( that I can remember of)... he even tipped him off on the dragons... thus helping him get to the GOF. Just when Lord Voldemort needed Harry so much for his return to power, and when he needed Harry to get to the GOF. 10 - HP&OOTP: Hagrid failed to rally the giants to Dumbledore's cause. Of course, the task was difficult to begin with, and just because he failed, it doesn't make him a bad guy. But he could haved failed on purpose. Helped with the rebellion and all. And afterwwards there was that whole period where he was wandering alone, for a very long time without madame Maxime... Who knows what's he been up to. OOOoh and bringing a giant agains his will on Hogwarts ground... a sure way to piss said giant and make him more violent... And then bringing hermione and Harry to see him while everyone is busy with the Quidditch game 11 - Dumbledore trusts Hagrid with his life (book 1), the bigger the trust the bigger the betrayal... And he also trusted Moody in GOF, until he realized that moody wasn't moody but Crouch. There could be more incriminating clues but I can't think of them at the moment. So there, if anyone is going to be ESE it's gonna be Hagrid, not Lupin! MWAHAHAHA! OK, I know, there are probably also a lot more arguments to say that hagrid is just a nice guy but... Spacemonkey =) who does not believe one second that Remus could be a traitor... Umbridge is not your friend. Umbridge is nobody's friend. If Umbridge were a medecine, Umbridge would be a suppository. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From spacemonkey at noos.fr Tue Jul 1 15:43:51 2003 From: spacemonkey at noos.fr (spacemonkey_amn) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 17:43:51 +0200 Subject: OOP: Werewolves and silver (was 1 down 4 to go (End of an Era) In-Reply-To: <1057032575.6317.58755.m6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66450 > Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 02:23:37 -0000 > From: "sethido" > Subject: OOP: 1 down 4 to go (End of an Era) > > spoilers > > > > > > > > > 3)Remus Lupin. This is the character I fell in love with. The man > with a heart of gold and an uncontrollable beast. (To borrow from > the modern genre,,,he is Katherine's Vincent, Buffy's Angel) The > creature we love, yet outcast in society. He lost his best friend > after reuniting with him, (each spoke each word as if it pained him), > lives in poverty, rejected by the wizarding world and doomed. > (Pettigrew's Silver Hand) Question: Is it cannon that silver is dangerous to werewolf? I know it's the usual theory when it comes to werewolf outside of Harry potter land. But has JKR ever mentioned it? Reading OOTP, I was thinking that Grimmauld place had an awful lot of silver laying around. You'd think that they'd get read of all the silver stuff from the order's quarter if one of the member was a werewolf and it was dangerous to him. Especially if said member tends to live in that place (Ooooh, he was living with Sirius, isn't that cute?)... not just come around for meetings and dinner. Spacemonkey =) Umbridge is not your friend. Umbridge is nobody's friend. If Umbridge were a medecine, Umbridge would be a suppository. From justinhartim at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 15:47:34 2003 From: justinhartim at hotmail.com (Justin Hart) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 15:47:34 -0000 Subject: OoP Big Ending Let Down Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66451 I was totally engaged in the book... I thought the scene in Dumbledore's office where Dumbledore takes out Fudge & co. was tremendous... Fred and George were superb, the Umbridge/Quibbler magazine thing is fantastic... But it all went downhill at the end... I thought that Hermione's plot was clever and it worked ok... but the whole Giant interruption was all but lost on me... but I lived with it. The big problem happened when the rest of the group showed up (Ron, Ginny et al.) I would have loved to see Harry and Hermione burst into the office, wands raised only to find Ron, Ginny, Luna and Neville standing over Malfoy and co... It just seemed rushed to have them show up in the forest finding Harry and Hermione... Then there was that pointless debate about who should go to London... and how many animals there were to ride... and who could see them... it just didn't work for me... And how far is London anyway from Hogwarts? Any why didn't they just use the floo network in Dumbledore's office? ...then the excitement seemed to build... but how many ways can someone get hit, fall unconsious, and generally use and defend in a wand fight? There were no clever moves... no keen magic involved... ... and then to have this strangely mundane accidential breaking of the prophecy... it just seemed odd ... on top of that: the chasing through the rooms seemed unneccesary... ... and of course the big let down: SIRIUS BASICALLY TRIPS INTO THE VEIL AND IS GONE!! WHAT KIND OF HEROIC EXIT IS THAT?!!!! And he goes out bragging? ... Then Dumbledore shows up and has this brief fight with Voldemort, and Harry just sits there? I just don't get it It was building so nicely during the whole meat of the book and then just fades into nothing at the end... From dreamzworld_2000 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 15:47:50 2003 From: dreamzworld_2000 at yahoo.com (dreamzworld_2000) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 15:47:50 -0000 Subject: OOP In defense of Harry...spoiler In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66452 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oz_widgeon" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fridwulfa" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > S > > > P > > > O > > > I > > > L > > > E > > > R > > > > > > > > Me (Izaskun) > > Well, true, but don't forget the first chapter, when Harry meets > Dudley > > before the Dementor's attack. He really wants his cousin to give > him an > > excuse to fight him, to use his magic wand against him, he's so > angry and > > frustrated that he feels the only thing that would help him is > jinxing > > Dudley, and had the Dementor's not appeared I'm not so sure he > wouldn't have > > cursed Big D. He would have taken advantadge of his powers, his > magical > > ability against a poor muggle, and yes I'm talking about Dudley, he > can be > > whatever you want, but he's still totally powerless against a > wizard, Harry > > is more powerful and he knows it, so it really worried me when I > read it. > > He's not aware of the true extent of his powers, or maybe he is > (and that's > > even more scaring) and yet he's willing to use these powers against > weaker > > people. > > > > Cheers, Izaskun > > I don't think Harry would actually have used magic on Dudley. He > migth threaten Dudley, but he *knew* he'd be expelled if he did, so I > seriously doubt he would use it. I also don't think that Harry would intentionally use magic on Dudley. Under the circumstances in which he did used magic, i.e. blowing up Aunt Marge, Harry did it only in a moment of fury and he did tried to stop himself from repeating his past mistakes again. He is still a young wizard and therefore he might not know the FULL consequences of abusing his powers. Besides, if he abused his powers while still schooling at Hogwarts, he is bound to get expelled and that is the last thing he wanted. beebee From atroposgryffin at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 15:48:15 2003 From: atroposgryffin at yahoo.com (Susan Smith) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 15:48:15 -0000 Subject: WEASLEY FAMILY WOES Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66453 SPOILERS STILL IN EFFECT? DO NOT READ UNLESS YOU HAVE FINISHED OOP > > > > > > > > There have been alot of posts speculating on Percy Weasley's break from his family; and the possibility of an upcoming Weasley death. Several posts have speculated that the greatest loss to Harry would be either Ron or Ginny. I do not know what to make of it all, but I speculate that in typical JKR fashion, we are seeing a lot of foreshadowing in Oop. For example, chapter 9 (The woes of Mrs. Weasley) shows Molly imagining Ron, Bill, Mr. Weasley, the twins, Percy and Harry dead, while she is fighting the boggart in the desk. Take note, Ginny is NOT seen as dead. I think she will survive the series. Too, the description of Mr. Weasley appears to be very similar to the description of him in Harry's subsequent Snake vs Mr Weasley dream, and how he looked when found by ministry, so I think Mr. Weasley's terror is past and he will survive until the end. So, I guess that leaves Bill, Percy, the twins and Ron as potential dead Weasleys. An argument could be made that ROn is comic releief and will always survive, and/or that he has already been attacked by lifesize chess pieces, backfired curses, Lockhart, Sirius and the Whomping Willow (POA, Aragog, and brains (to name just a few). One could say he has had more than his share and will not succumb to more. He will always be there (Harry might not, but Ron will). So, now we have Bill, Percy, and the twins. Which death would have bigger impact on the Order? Is Percy indeed undercover for Dumbledore? What exactly is Bill doing for order? Will his involvement with Goblins be the cause of his demise when goblins join the Dark Forces? Only time (a year or two while JKR writes) will tell. From ginoledesma at mydestiny.net Tue Jul 1 14:46:51 2003 From: ginoledesma at mydestiny.net (Gino LV.Ledesma) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 22:46:51 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP: What Snape is really doing out there... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66454 On Tuesday, July 1, 2003, at 09:23 AM, griffinmore wrote: > I've been lurking for a while, and hopefully, this will be my first > post!! I agree whole heartedly with Snapes redeeming characteristics, > but no matter how upset he may have been with Harry for "violating > his privacy", Snape had no right to deliberately disobey a direct > order from Albus Bumbledore. Snape had to have known how important > those Occlumency classes were. I think that they were just as > stressful to Snape as they were to Harry. After all, Harry was having > a bird's eye view into Snape's life as well. It seemed to me that > Harry felt sorry for Snape and wanted to appologize, but Snape > reacted rather childishly. Don't get me wrong; I like Snape, > especially the whole mystery surrounding his character, but he acts > just a juvenile a his Slytherin students sometimes. Just my opinion. > Hope I did this right. Peace, from Griffinmore Er... well, I don't know. Seeing as it's Harry's "nature" to sneak around, wouldn't it have been better if he were the one to approach Snape and apologized first? I know... pretty far-fetched, and Snape being a part of the Order _and_ as a teacher should've been more... "professional," but, IMHO, Harry absolutely had no right whatsoever to pry into someone else's private property. Hadn't he learned that already last year when he "curiously" wondered about Dumbledore's pensieve? And now knowing full well what the pensieve does, wouldn't he have thought twice (or thrice) about doing the same to Snape? I agree Snape didn't act as how a ... "grown up should have acted," which leads me to believe that there's _really_ more to it than just his humiliation in the past. Something else (which may run deeper) may have caused a far more "traumatic" (or psychologically hurting) effect, and this he has not yet come to terms with. Its pretty much obvious he didn't like James Potter, so it could also be possible that, aside from "backing out of the werewolf prank", James may have done something else in the past to Snape which the latter didn't expect. Of course... All these are just jumbled guesses. :) Gino Ledesma // Top 10 Reasons Compilers are female: #10. Picky, picky, picky. From saraandra at whsmithnet.co.uk Tue Jul 1 13:30:05 2003 From: saraandra at whsmithnet.co.uk (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 13:30:05 -0000 Subject: OOP: The Weapon Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66455 Harry has now escaped from Voldemort's attempts to kill him 4 times. Voldemort presumably wants to get hold of the prophecy to find out if there's something there that will explain why he hasn't been able to kill Harry, where he's had no problem killing adult powerful witches and wizards. So the prophecy is gone now - isn't the seed of doubt that's been sown in Voldemort's mind a pretty powerful weapon? Someone on this site, in another post, highlighted that Harry was able to control his wand when it wasn't in his hand (lumos). The fact that LV doubts he can kill Harry may stop him from being able to, even without the love protection thing. I agree with the other post, that there may be 'something else in the MoM, in the Mysteries section' perhaps being The Real Weapon, is a distinct possibility. Why else show us the different sections of the Dept. of Mysteries? By the way, did anyone else think it was so cool, in desparation in the central hall of doors, when Harry asks 'Which way out?' the doors cooperate? Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From miss_dumblydore at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 16:17:18 2003 From: miss_dumblydore at yahoo.com (Heather Gauen) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:17:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question about the inheritance thread... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030701161718.81317.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66456 Darrin: > I'd say it's entirely possible he made one, in which > case Harry would > probably get the bulk of the estate and Lupin would > be the executor > (or whatever the parallel term is in the UK.) > > But, for story purposes, I can see it being > delicious that Narcissa > gets it and has it razed for a Fizzing Whizbee > factory or something. Actually, wouldn't it be kind of a moot point (at least for now) whether or not Sirius made a will? As long as 12 Grimmauld Place is still under the Fidelius charm, no one can get to it or anything inside of it except the Order, and I'm assuming that they'll keep it as headquarters for however long they need and then give it to Harry. (Somehow I can't see them turning it over to anyone in Sirius' family!) Just a thought. Heather, who wishes she remembered enough of the 80's enough to love them. Hey, I'll always have Care Bears... ;-) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From bob at tmbg.org Tue Jul 1 16:22:14 2003 From: bob at tmbg.org (Bob) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 16:22:14 -0000 Subject: OOP Spoiler: How the Death was written In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66457 FIRST LINE SPOILER SPACE --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Adana Robinson" wrote: > This mirrors real life exactly in my experience; it's not the actual moment > of the person dying when you break down; it's when you realize later what > life is going to be like without them, when you feel that "hole inside you > where they were, where they're not there anymore" not an exact quote, but > Harry felt something like that. > > I think the death was written very realistically. > And THIS, precisely, is the reason Harry doesn't see the Thestrals at the end of Book 4. It needs time to SINK IN. Think about it. Bob First post! From jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com Tue Jul 1 16:31:06 2003 From: jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com (jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 11:31:06 -0500 Subject: ] Re: Question about the inheritance thread... Message-ID: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30B01C@msgmsp16.norwest.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66458 Actually, wouldn't it be kind of a moot point (at least for now) whether or not Sirius made a will? As long as 12 Grimmauld Place is still under the Fidelius charm, no one can get to it or anything inside of it except the Order, and I'm assuming that they'll keep it as headquarters for however long they need and then give it to Harry. (Somehow I can't see them turning it over to anyone in Sirius' family!) Just a thought. Heather, Actually I don't think it is a moot point- at least the discussion How the property will be devised. If Bill is right that there is some kind of a magical contract that controlled the inheritance of the property- meaning it HAS to be kept in the family, then who will be entitled to the property- and the loyalties of Kreacher (am I the only one who gets a giggle out of his name?)- may be very relevant. Jennifer ____________ From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Jul 1 16:33:15 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 16:33:15 -0000 Subject: WEASLEY FAMILY WOES In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66459 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Smith" wrote: > SPOILERS STILL IN EFFECT? DO NOT READ UNLESS YOU HAVE FINISHED OOP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not know what to make of it all, but I speculate that in typical > JKR fashion, we are seeing a lot of foreshadowing in Oop. > > For example, chapter 9 (The woes of Mrs. Weasley) shows Molly > imagining Ron, Bill, Mr. Weasley, the twins, Percy and Harry dead, > while she is fighting the boggart in the desk. Take note, Ginny is > NOT seen as dead. I think she will survive the series. > > So, I guess that leaves Bill, Percy, the twins and Ron as potential > dead Weasleys. Ah, but maybe JKR is using the old reverseroo here. Maybe the people Molly sees will live and the twist will be that Charlie or Ginny (or both) will die. Marianne From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Jul 1 16:39:13 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 16:39:13 -0000 Subject: OoP Big Ending Let Down In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66460 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Justin Hart" wrote: > > It just seemed rushed to have them show up in the forest finding > Harry and Hermione... Well, it was after Harry and Hermione met the centaurs and Grawp. I think there was enough time. I think the main reason why the others appeared was, because everybody had to be in the forest to use the thestrals. It would have cost to much time if they went back to the school first. > > Then there was that pointless debate about who should go to London... > and how many animals there were to ride... and who could see them... > it just didn't work for me... IMO, this scene was just to show the loyality of Neville, Ginny and Luna. Considering, that Neville and Luna were much more of a help in the end, than Hermione and Ron, I think this scene was pretty important. But I agree, that they should have shortened it a bit. > > And how far is London anyway from Hogwarts? Any why didn't they just > use the floo network in Dumbledore's office? Because they were in the forest and the thestrals were there. And I am not sure if they were able to get in Dumbledores office. Umbridge wasn't. > > ...then the excitement seemed to build... but how many ways can > someone get hit, fall unconsious, and generally use and defend in a > wand fight? There were no clever moves... no keen magic involved... I am not sure what you meant. Those who were unconscious remained unconscious till the end of the fight. > > ... and then to have this strangely mundane accidential breaking of > the prophecy... it just seemed odd I think it was necessary. Voldemort never would have stooped trying to get the prophecy. Although I would have liked it better, if either Harry or Neville had smashed the prophecy in purpose. > > ... on top of that: the chasing through the rooms seemed > unneccesary... Yes, that scene didn't do it for me, either. Although I loved Bellatrix provocation. > > ... and of course the big let down: SIRIUS BASICALLY TRIPS INTO THE > VEIL AND IS GONE!! WHAT KIND OF HEROIC EXIT IS THAT?!!!! And he > goes out bragging? > I think it was a very heroic exit. He died fighting. He died trying to save his godson. Do you think an Avada Kedavra would have been more heroic? Hickengruendler From kkearney at students.miami.edu Tue Jul 1 16:40:20 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 16:40:20 -0000 Subject: OOtP: Why Weren't the Weasleys in the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66461 Beth wondered: > But why would the Weasleys not have been in the Order the last > time? They would have been old enough, they are obviously staunch > supporters of Dumbledore, they are disliked by death eaters - surely > they would have been members. This seems like a huge contradiction > to me. Time for my two knuts. The idea that Arthur and Molly were involved in the previous Voldemort war is one that has always seemed very out of character to me. Several people on this list have created possible Arthur-and-Molly-involvement scenarios, ranging from Auror activity to Imperius-forced atrocities. However, I see no reason to think they should have played any major role. You comment that they ARE staunch supporters of Dumbledore, and ARE disliked by Death Eaters. Perfectly true now, and as a result, they are members of the Order this time around. But what was the situation during the last war? Bill and Charlie were probably at Hogwarts, and the twins about two years old. We have no evidence that Molly has ever worked outside the home, so I'm going to assume she was a stay-at-home mom, especially since she was coping with young twins (not easy). And Arthur? Again, nothing definite, but as twelve years have passed and he still isn't a very prominent official, I assume he was probably still a junior official at the time. The Weasley's current closeness to Dumbledore seems directly related to Harry. Prior to Harry's arrival, the Weasley's never mentioned Dumbledore on a friend basis. They were, prior to Harry, just another family with children at Hogwarts, like hundreds of other wizarding families. So, basically, during the first war, we have a junior official and his wife, who currently have four children. Arthur is not placed high enough in the Ministry to provide any invaluable information. I can see nothing that would make Dumbledore look twice at this family. The Order is composed of an elite team of wizards, willing to risk their lives for the cause. The Weasley's simply weren't prime candidates for this task. Not that I think they would have refused had Dumbledore approached them, but I see nothing that would have influenced him to do so. -Corinth From kkearney at students.miami.edu Tue Jul 1 16:40:20 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 16:40:20 -0000 Subject: OOtP: Why Weren't the Weasleys in the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66462 Beth wondered: > But why would the Weasleys not have been in the Order the last > time? They would have been old enough, they are obviously staunch > supporters of Dumbledore, they are disliked by death eaters - surely > they would have been members. This seems like a huge contradiction > to me. Time for my two knuts. The idea that Arthur and Molly were involved in the previous Voldemort war is one that has always seemed very out of character to me. Several people on this list have created possible Arthur-and-Molly-involvement scenarios, ranging from Auror activity to Imperius-forced atrocities. However, I see no reason to think they should have played any major role. You comment that they ARE staunch supporters of Dumbledore, and ARE disliked by Death Eaters. Perfectly true now, and as a result, they are members of the Order this time around. But what was the situation during the last war? Bill and Charlie were probably at Hogwarts, and the twins about two years old. We have no evidence that Molly has ever worked outside the home, so I'm going to assume she was a stay-at-home mom, especially since she was coping with young twins (not easy). And Arthur? Again, nothing definite, but as twelve years have passed and he still isn't a very prominent official, I assume he was probably still a junior official at the time. The Weasley's current closeness to Dumbledore seems directly related to Harry. Prior to Harry's arrival, the Weasley's never mentioned Dumbledore on a friend basis. They were, prior to Harry, just another family with children at Hogwarts, like hundreds of other wizarding families. So, basically, during the first war, we have a junior official and his wife, who currently have four children. Arthur is not placed high enough in the Ministry to provide any invaluable information. I can see nothing that would make Dumbledore look twice at this family. The Order is composed of an elite team of wizards, willing to risk their lives for the cause. The Weasley's simply weren't prime candidates for this task. Not that I think they would have refused had Dumbledore approached them, but I see nothing that would have influenced him to do so. -Corinth From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Jul 1 16:47:39 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 16:47:39 -0000 Subject: Question about the inheritance thread... In-Reply-To: <20030701161718.81317.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66463 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Heather Gauen wrote: > Darrin: > > I'd say it's entirely possible he made one, in which > > case Harry would > > probably get the bulk of the estate and Lupin would > > be the executor > > (or whatever the parallel term is in the UK.) > > > > But, for story purposes, I can see it being > > delicious that Narcissa > > gets it and has it razed for a Fizzing Whizbee > > factory or something. > > Actually, wouldn't it be kind of a moot point (at > least for now) whether or not Sirius made a will? As > long as 12 Grimmauld Place is still under the Fidelius > charm, no one can get to it or anything inside of it > except the Order, and I'm assuming that they'll keep > it as headquarters for however long they need and then > give it to Harry. (Somehow I can't see them turning it > over to anyone in Sirius' family!) Just a thought. > There is one other wrinkle that I don't think has been touched on in the inheritance question. Who's job is it to go to whatever authorities there may be to tell them Sirius is dead? And, if I'm the lawyer, the banker, or the Ministry clerk who fills out the death certificates, how do I know you're telling me the truth? Can't produce a body, now, can you? How do I know that Sirius isn't still the on-the-lam escaped criminal heir to the Black property/fortune? Is Dumbledore's word sufficient proof? Marianne From terryljames at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 16:50:16 2003 From: terryljames at hotmail.com (terryljames76) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 16:50:16 -0000 Subject: TBAY: OOP: Too much butterbeer--Terry gets the D!Ts (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66464 (First TBAY excursion--comments and/or corrections welcomed offlist! Not all can(n)ons are mine; most fell off the back of a--er, were salvaged from the list.) Terry stumbled across the sand, clutching her SAD DENIAL mug. It had undeniably been a good bargain--she had picked up a case at the new Souvenir Shack to hand out to the loyal crew and passengers of her pirogue--but it might not have been a good idea for George to offer a "bottomless mug" to anyone carrying one. Many residents of the bay had attended the informal wake for Sirius at the Royal George. It had been a quiet, respectful remembrance, aside from the requisite corner table draped in silver and green, where people were sneering and wearing badges that had been bewitched to flash "Sirius the Jerk" in lime green. Terry had managed to ignore them for a while by concentrating on her butterbeer, but having a very weak head for butterscotch, it wasn't long before she was standing unsteadily on the bar and attempting to sing "When You Wish Upon a Star". At that point, George had signaled for Dobby, and mentioned quietly that it might be a good idea to let her sleep it off. Dobby was temporarily helping out on the SAD DENIAL until a permanent ship elf could be found. "This way, ma'am," he squeaked. "Dobby will help you back to your ship, yes, ma'am." He led Terry, weaving a bit, down the beach. In the distance, people were taking down sandbags and scavenging bits of exploded ships. There seemed to be a busy industry of new boat-building with bits from old crafts mixed with some new, imported wood. Aboard the LOLLIPOPS cruise liner, they appeared to be still having a massive deck party. They passed a woman and a black-haired boy. The boy was hopping along on crutches, while the woman hovered protectively. Terry rather blearily recognized them from previous posts. "Hi there, Stoned!Harry!" she greeted the boy. "Have you thought about (hic) a prosthetic yet?" The boy looked rather taken aback to be addressed in this familiar fashion. "Er...well..." he stammered, looking to the woman for help. "I (hic) totally agree that nothing in OOP prevents you from being (hic) the living em--embod--the Sorcerer's Stone itself. Now, Voldy may not have (hic) known specifically that that's what you are, but the prophecy (hic) clearly says that only you have the power to defeat him. So why? What's so special about you?" This was clearly a rhetorical question, as Terry was on a roll and there was no stopping her. Waving her mug dramatically--Dobby ducked as it sailed by--she declaimed, "It's clear that no one, including Dumbledore, knows why you can defeat (hic) Lord Thingy. The power that you have to defeat him, is that of being the Stone!" The woman didn't really seem to know what to think either. "Well, that's very nice," she said uncertainly. "We'll--try it on and see if it fits, shall we?" Terry waved magnanimously and walked on. As they approached the pier where the U.S.S. SAD DENIAL was moored, however, her mood changed. "How can they have a (hic) wake for someone who's not dead?" she demanded belligerently. Dobby helped her over a bit of driftwood. "Dobby doesn't question theorists," he replied diplomatically. "Dobby gets enough death threats as it is." He was actually worried about Terry. It was never a good thing when she drank too much butterbeer. Bad things tended to happen. "You know the (hic) origin of the term 'wake'?" Terry asked, wandering up the gangplank. "People used to lay the (hic) dead person out on a table and sit around and see if they would (hic) wake up. They didn't want to bury them if they had just (hic) passed out. That's the only reason I went to that (hic) wake. But they don't believe he'll come back. Bunch of (hic) non-believing heathen...." Dobby, showing uncanny premonition, cringed back against the wall of the lounge, where Terry had collapsed on a couch. With a loud *crack*, Terry seemed to split in two. The second Terry stood up and looked scornfully at the supine one. "You don't believe it either," she accused. "All that overnight boat-building, all that mug-waving-- it's all a cover-up. You're in denial." "Well, duh," Terry giggled. She indicated the plaque on the wall, with the ship's name inscribed in gold. "That's our name." Dark!Terry shook her head impatiently. "No. It's just like that crazy kid on the beach. Did you ever see a more vacant look? But you wanted to give him an idea. You don't even believe in him yourself, but you had to stop to chit-chat." "No, I don't believe in (hic) Stoned!Harry," Terry had to admit. "But I really felt sorry about his (hic) leg. And what I said was true. Could have (hic) been true. Might have ought to have been..." she trailed off, giggling again. "Oh, I've had enough of that (hic)ing," Dark!Terry said irritably. "And so have the other nine thousand people on this list." She pulled a wand out of her pocket, pointed it at Terry, and muttered "Finite Inebrio!" Terry blinked and sat up. "Wha--what are you doing here?" she asked. She turned to Dobby. "Could you get me some black coffee, please? Very strong. Not her," she added, as Dobby looked at Dark! Terry. "She's not staying." Dobby scurried away to the galley. She turned back to D!T. "I want you off my ship," she said coldly. D!T smirked. "Some ship this is," she remarked, looking around. "I don't even see any weaponry. I could sink this thing with my eyes closed." "We do too have can(n)ons!" Terry said indignantly. "We just choose not to display them openly. We're a non-violent ship." "Peace and love, how sweet," D!T sneered. "Let's see your can(n)on, then." Terry took a deep breath. "Well, most obviously, there's the fact that the curse that hit Sirius was not the AK curse, which is green. It was specifically noted as red. It did not kill him." D!T rolled her eyes. "That's been debated all over the list," she pointed out. "The one _before_ that was red. The color of the actual curse that hit Sirius was not specified." "Aha," said Terry triumphantly, "but the actual curse that hit him was referred to as the 'second' curse. You can't have a second unless you have a first. Therefore it was the same curse." Dark!Terry changed tack. "Regardless whether the curse killed him, it knocked him through the veil. It's pretty generally believed that the veil is death itself. To go beyond the veil, etc. So if he wasn't dead when he went through, he was by the time he hit the other side." Terry picked up a STUFFED BEAR (Sirius: True Unselfish Friend For Ever! Deserves Better End And Revival!) from the couch and hugged it tightly. "Are you telling me that a grown wizard, with a wand, could be killed by accidentally passing through a veil?" she demanded. "Are you telling me that, with all those wizards working in the Department of Mysteries, that that never happened before? Somebody couldn't come along and say, 'Dang, another one fell in? He was still alive? Well, hold on a minute, I'll fetch him out for you...' No, that whole veil thing was fishy." Dark!Terry eyed the STUFFED BEAR scornfully. "I don't think you're allowed more than one acronym at a time," she said. "I'll just get rid of that for you..." She pointed her wand at it, preparing to turn it into a spider, but Terry just hugged it more tightly, glaring at her. "Touch my BEAR and I will make you eat that wand," she said through gritted teeth. Neither of them noticed that the portrait over the mantel was now occupied. Phineas Nigellus had arrived and was watching the argument with interest. "We have more light weaponry," Terry was saying. "There's the argument that Harry needs a loyal father figure to go home to at the end; there's the argument that if Sirius is gone, no one has that close 'godfather' bond with him--which might even entail a magical binding agreement to protect him--" "Not can(n)on!" D!T interrupted. "Of course not, just light weaponry, as I said," Terry snapped back. "Anyway, there's the argument that Harry will have nothing left to fight for--he was getting rather suicidal at the end of OOP anyway--" "Leaving aside the fact that Harry will be almost eighteen at the end of the series, and not really need that father figure anymore; leaving aside all the arguments about Sirius not being that good an influence on Harry; leaving aside that he still has friends at Hogwarts that he would fight for--show me the can(n)ons!" Terry sputtered incoherently over the slurs to Sirius, but then decided it was not worth the time to argue. "There's the thestrals," she said. "Does anybody really think that JKR would introduce such a fascinating creature, with such intriguing characteristics, just to have them play a minor role and then be forgotten?" D!T watched her with narrowed eyes. "Where do you think she's going with the thestrals?" "Well, the thestrals can find their way anywhere, we know that from canon," Terry said enthusiastically. "Wasn't it a little mundane to waste that on the Ministry of Magic? And they are intimately connected with death. What if they can take Harry to the place behind the veil?" "So you think Harry will see his parents again?" D!T asked. Terry's face saddened, and she shook her head. "No. I think his parents are definitely dead, and were when they passed their own version of the veil. But Sirius was _not_. So Sirius could be behind the veil...all alone...waiting to be rescued." "But Dumbledore and Lupin both said he was dead!" pointed out Dark! Terry. Terry gave an oddly fake cough, which sounded suspiciously like "Peter Pettigrew!" When she recovered, she said, "It's not like either one of them have never been wrong. And I'm thinking of building a dinghy so I can visit the ESE Lupin theory every now and then. At the moment, I'm not trusting anything he's saying. Did you notice that he tells Molly, 'You're not the only one at this table who cares about Harry'? He doesn't say _he_ does. He could be referring to Sirius, or anyone else. Oh, he's clever, that possible ESE Lupin!" Dark!Terry huffed with impatience. "Could we stick with one theory, please?" she demanded. "What else have you got?" Terry thought about it. "Well, that's about it. Oh!" she said excitedly, remembering. "Isn't it convenient that the only classmate who sees Sirius fall is Neville?" D!T frowned. "Why is that convenient? For whom?" "For JKR, of course," Terry said. "Neville is the only one--besides Luna--who could already see the thestrals. So Harry can't ask him if he can suddenly see them after he saw Sirius 'die'. Considering the way JKR's mind works, don't you find that a bit suspicious?" "JKR!" D!T said triumphantly. "She _said_ he was dead! She cried over him!" "She never said _Sirius_ was dead," Terry argued. "She said 'the person'. She said she cried when she wrote the death. For all we know, she was writing the scene in Book 6 where Dumbledore dies. Or the scene at the end of Book 7 where Ron sacrifices himself to Bellatrix so Harry can get to Voldemort--like in the chess match at the end of PS/SS. JKR is very tricky. And not everything she says can be interpreted at face value." Dark!Terry sighed. "I really thought you were pretending about this," she said quietly. "I really thought you didn't believe it, deep down under. I thought I could argue you out of this insane ship. But you're beyond my help." Terry stood up disbelievingly. "I don't _want_ your help! I didn't _ask_ for your help! I'm perfectly fine on my ship, thank you very much! Now get out of here! Go back to the shadows from whence you came!" Dark!Terry disappeared, with another loud *crack*. Phineas yawned. "What an amusing young lady," he observed. "I quite liked her spirit." "Shut up, Phineas," Terry said, yawning also. "Dobby never did come back with that coffee. Oh well..." She settled down on the couch and pulled a rainbow-striped afghan over her. "Dueling with evil always wears me out." She cuddled up with the STUFFED BEAR and was asleep in seconds. Terry LJ From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 16:54:41 2003 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 16:54:41 -0000 Subject: ] Re: Question about the inheritance thread... In-Reply-To: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30B01C@msgmsp16.norwest.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66465 This just came to mind while I was reading this post. If it is true that the property HAS to be kept in the family, does it then get passed down to Bellatrix? She is the next person in line besides Malfoy's wife (Can't remember her name at the moment) What will that do in return to the Order's headquarters? Even if it has a secret keeper will she still be allowed to access the house? -Jacqui If Bill is right that there > is some kind of a magical contract that controlled > the inheritance of the property- meaning it HAS to be kept in the family, > then who will be entitled to the property- and the loyalties of Kreacher (am > I the > only one who gets a giggle out of his name?)- may be very relevant. > > Jennifer > ____________ From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Jul 1 17:01:25 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:01:25 -0000 Subject: WEASLEY FAMILY WOES In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66466 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Smith" wrote: > SPOILERS STILL IN EFFECT? DO NOT READ UNLESS YOU HAVE FINISHED OOP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There have been alot of posts speculating on Percy Weasley's break > from his family; and the possibility of an upcoming Weasley death. > Several posts have speculated that the greatest loss to Harry would > be either Ron or Ginny. > > I do not know what to make of it all, but I speculate that in typical > JKR fashion, we are seeing a lot of foreshadowing in Oop. > > For example, chapter 9 (The woes of Mrs. Weasley) shows Molly > imagining Ron, Bill, Mr. Weasley, the twins, Percy and Harry dead, > while she is fighting the boggart in the desk. Take note, Ginny is > NOT seen as dead. I think she will survive the series. > The problem is, this scene is open for many interpretations (if it really contains forshadowing). You can as well say, Charlie and Ginny were the two, who were not in the boggart form (at leats not while Harry was there), so maybe in the end they are the two who will end up dead. Another scene that MIGHT contain forshadowing was, that Harry, Ginny and Neville were sort of hypnotised by the archway in the Death Chamber. Ron and Hermione weren't, and, although she said that she heard the voices as well, Luna also didn't seem to be in a trance. This might mean, that Harry, Neville and Ginny all will die. But we just don't know it. I think we have to wait till the end to say, which scenes are real forshadowing and which aren't. Hickengruendler From odilefalaise at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 17:10:58 2003 From: odilefalaise at yahoo.com (Odile Falaise) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:10:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Babes and Skanks of GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030701171058.25323.qmail@web13105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66467 <<>> Awww, Darrin! You left out Narcissa Malfoy and Winky! (Although I have a feeling they'll end up on the Skank list... ^_~) Odile [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 17:12:11 2003 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:12:11 -0000 Subject: Continue to snape half-vampire theory by a newbie :)(long!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66468 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "icewalker08" wrote: > Hello every body : > > This my first post here though i am a fan of HP saga for about 4 > years :) > writers i dont read fanfics) > > There is a snape being vampire or half-vampire theory allaround which > now,after > > reading book 5,i am 100% agree with it. OK. I'll bite. I was waiting till later to post on this but you beat me to it. I'm not going to go line by line right now but I do think we get some hints about vampires or whatever it is Snape really is. I'll just touch on a few points for now. He can see well enough in the dark to shoot down flies but he has to have his face almost plastered on the page to take the test. Once outside we see where the sunlight was dazzling on the smooth surface of the lake. Snape has settled himself on the grass in the 'dense shadows' of a clump of bushes. He is always in the shadows. When Harry first goes to Snape for lessons it states that Snape 'had moved into the light'. It's the one theory I'm 100% positive of. If he isn't a vampire he sure is close. Plus there are similarities between Snape and Krum that are worth repeating. I just don't have time to post on it right now. "K" From pinguthegreek at pinguthegreek.net Tue Jul 1 17:18:20 2003 From: pinguthegreek at pinguthegreek.net (Pinguthegreek) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 18:18:20 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Babes and Skanks of GoF References: Message-ID: <01e001c33ff4$c7f8b040$395fc487@personal> No: HPFGUIDX 66469 ----- Original Message ----- From: darrin_burnett To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 2:48 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Babes and Skanks of GoF I, Darrin Burnett, bring you the Babes and Skanks of GoF, when our boys start noticing girls and girls start rolling their eyes. There muast be a bloke other than sexy Sirius for the rest of us............? Michelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Jul 1 17:20:05 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:20:05 -0000 Subject: Babes and Skanks of GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66470 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > I, Darrin Burnett, bring you the Babes and Skanks of GoF, when our > boys start noticing girls and girls start rolling their eyes. But you have forgotten Angelina Johnson. She is my babe. Hickengruendler From Joanne0012 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 17:19:54 2003 From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:19:54 -0000 Subject: A start on the preOoP 150+ list In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.0.20030701022837.03ed6f00@pop.fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66471 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Joy wrote: > A few quick additions: > > >49. Ron will annihilate Hermione at wizard's chess > >There was no wizard chess. > > Only a brief mention of Harry's castle duking it out with Ron's pawn just > before Snape comes calling at Grimmauld Place. They also play chess after they've finished their exams: " On Friday, Harry and Ron had a day off while Hermione sat her Ancient Runes exam, and as they had the whole weekend in front of them they permitted themselves a break from revision. They stretched and yawned beside the open window, through which warm summer air was wafting as they played wizard chess. " And on the Hogawarts Express, homebound: "Harry and Ron whiled away most of the journey playing wizard chess while Hermione read out snippets from the Prophet. " From CynthiaReinhart at netscape.net Tue Jul 1 17:22:32 2003 From: CynthiaReinhart at netscape.net (phoenixmum) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:22:32 -0000 Subject: Question about the inheritance thread... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66472 > I do not think that he was able to leave the Black legacy to Harry. > If it were possible to leave it to someone other than the closest > living relative, then Sirius would never have inherited from Mrs. > Black, who despised him. I expect that there is some form of > binding magical contract on the estate, forcing the inheritance > issue. > > Bill But, at the time Mrs. Black died, Sirius was in Azkaban and thought to be Voldemort's follower. Perhaps that redeemed him in his mother's eyes. From dark30 at vcn.bc.ca Tue Jul 1 17:22:59 2003 From: dark30 at vcn.bc.ca (Dan Feeney) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:22:59 -0000 Subject: Part 2 guaranteed 150+ in OoP revisited. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66473 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: >80. Someone will be interrupted before divulging a very important storyline clue. Are we all itching to know if "Snivelly lost his pants"? Or, is that not a clue, it's the biggest interruption that comes to mind though. Luna - "I think I know what might be in there..." From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 17:16:03 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:16:03 -0000 Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: The 2003 Pickled Toad Awards Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66474 The polls have closed and the fans have shown their will. The winners of the first annual Pickled Toad awards for their categories are as follows. There will be a new poll running until July 15th on OT Chatter including all the category winners to pick the Best Filk of the Year. 1. Best filk of a song from a musical, or a showtune: "Dark Defense Tutorial", by Pippin 2. Best filk of a song from a movie or television soundtrack: "If you'd just Let Me Explain", by Pippin 3. Best filk of a "Tin Pan Alley" song: "That's Why Ol' Snapey Is a Vamp", by Pippin 4. Best filk of a Gilbert & Sullivan song: "I Am the Very Model Of an Anti-Hero Archetype", by Mariner 5. Best filk of a song by the Beatles or an indivdual Beatle: "The Dobby Road Album", by Gail, Pippin and Lilac 6. Best filk of a Rock & Roll song written before 1980: "Mr. Black, You Made a Fine Marauder" by Tann 7. Best filk of a Rock & Roll song written 1980 or later: "Immaterial Girl", by CMC 8. Best filk of a tune not known to the listener: TIE! "The Rat That Got Away", by CMC and "Cruel, Cruel Incredulous Men", by Haggridd 9. Best filk of a song nominated by its author, Author's choice: "The Ballad of Harry Potter", by Gail 10. Best filk, best choice of vehicle: TIE! "Azkaban", by CMC and "Harry Potter and the Declaration Of Independence: Songs From the Musical 1776", by Haggridd 11. Best filk of a Christmas song: "The Nativity Filks", by Melody and Pip 12. Best filk of a Disney song: Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration", by CMC 13. Best filk of a Tom lehrer song: "Torturing Muggles In the Dark", by Mariner 14. Best filk of a song that relates to HP fandom: TIE! "It's a Book", by Marina and "Let's hold the Fanfic Off", by Pippin 15. Best dramatization of a scene from canon in a serious fashion: "Cedric Diggory Guy", by Stefan 16. Best dramatization of a scene from canon in a humorous fashion: TIE! "If You'd Just Let me Explain", by Pippin and "One More Handshake", by Mariner Congratulations to all the category winners. They will all be contacted shortly by e-mail to determine whether they will be at Nimbus 2003 to receive your Pickled Toad award in person, or, if not, how they wish to have their awards sent. Please everybody vote for the best filk of the year on the new poll of all the category winners. This poll will only run for two weeks, in order to have a Best Filk of the Year in time for Nimbus 2003. Thank you all for your participation in making the Pickled toad awards a reality. Haggridd From hodgins at ssi.net Tue Jul 1 16:12:18 2003 From: hodgins at ssi.net (hedge2staxy) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 16:12:18 -0000 Subject: OOtP: Kreacher's concoction? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66475 I keep thinking about the scene where Harry is falling asleep while working on his Potions essay. He focuses in on a passage about plants used in confusing and befuddlement draughts "where the wizard is desirous of producing hot-headedness and recklessness" (Ch18 p.383, OOtP, US ed.). In his half waking state he is thinking about Sirius' behavior since being confined to the Black family residence and then goes on to think of how people might think he was a bit nutters if they knew that he (Harry) could feel what Vold. does. What if, similar to the theory that Neville's plant might have led some to behave with too much bravey, Sirius really was under the influence of some sort of potion that was given to him by Kreacher or, perhaps, put in a place where Sirius would accidentally ingest it ( maybe in a bottle of the liquor Sirius was drinking ). This raises the question of whether Kreacher can make or obtain such a potion. Also, could Kreacher disobey his master so completely as to essentially poison him? I don't think he could do that so directly. I do believe, though, that Kreacher could purposefully place a potion so that Sirius unwittingly befuddles himself. I'd like to think that there was something beyond Sirius' true nature acting in OOtP. He never gave good advice to Harry, but in this installment, he was over the top with some of his comments to Harry. Kreacher hates Sirius enough to do something like this (he ultimately is responsible for Sirius' death) and Kreacher does take license with his loyalty to Sirius at other times (Kreacher's interpretation of being told to "Get out" and his thievery of Black heirlooms that Sirius throws away). Perhaps, if the house elves take on an important role in the fight against Voldemort, we will find out more about Kreacher's betrayal of Sirius. --hedge2staxy From delineate at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 17:08:51 2003 From: delineate at hotmail.com (kwilson1003) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:08:51 -0000 Subject: OOP Spoiler: How the Death was written In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66476 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Adana Robinson" wrote: > Spoiler space: > > F > I > N > I > S > H > > T > H > E > > B > O > O > K > > A > L > R > E > A > D > Y > ! > > > This mirrors real life exactly in my experience; it's not the actual moment > of the person dying when you break down; it's when you realize later what > life is going to be like without them, when you feel that "hole inside you > where they were, where they're not there anymore" not an exact quote, but > Harry felt something like that. > > I think the death was written very realistically. > > adanaleigh > I agree with you. Having had one of THOSE telephone calls, the shock of finding someone just disappearing out of your life like that doesn't hit immediately. The death scene really affected me because of the memories it brought back to me. I thought it was very understated and effective. Mostly I couldn't get over the bad timing of it. I really sympathised with Sirius in this book and the frustration he felt at not being able to move on with life. To die so easily and so soon was the biggest tragedy of Sirius's death. Not at all unlike untimely deaths in real life actually. Karen From dicentra at xmission.com Tue Jul 1 17:34:56 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (Dicentra spectabilis) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:34:56 -0000 Subject: OOtP: Molly's Shortcomings In-Reply-To: <00b001c33f78$d29fa890$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66477 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pennylin" wrote: > > I'm still missing the causal connection between the potentially > tragic past events and the way she has treated her husband and > children for the entire time we have known her. How about this: One of her children was murdered by a DE (or by Imperious!Arthur), and her way of dealing with it is to Make Sure It Never Happens Again by exercising total control over everyone in her circle. This includes the incessant nagging, the inability to let go, treating everyone like a little child, etc. I disagree that Molly is a cardboard cutout or a stereotype: how many mothers really do act the way she does? Mine certainly doesn't -- not in any degree. Penny, I'm sure you don't. Most mothers I know possess only some of Molly's qualities, and even then only to a smaller degree. Rather than a stereotype, I'd call Molly an exaggeration of motherhood, an uber-Mother. She's a veritable Mother Bear who will fight tooth and nail for the protection of her brood. And it only make sense that she has become this exaggerated in response to a tragic past event. I agree that she's annoying and all of those other things, and that she needs to find a better way to cope with her grief. But I also know that when push comes to shove, she'd take a bullet (or an AK) for any of her family without a second thought. Just another flawed!adult in the Potterverse, I'd say. --Dicentra From jsmithqwert at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 16:56:06 2003 From: jsmithqwert at hotmail.com (jsmithqwert) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 16:56:06 -0000 Subject: Harry/Ginny - Prophecy - Prediction- Some OOP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66478 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ugadawg02" wrote: > >>> but I am afraid, alas, the prophecy would not be fulfilled > because LV would not have died by the "hand of the other" but by his > own. > Valky > > That would be a tearjerking ending, however what does by the 'hand of > the other' mean? Could it simply mean Harry has to set something in > motion that will eventually lead to LV's death or does he himself > have to kill LV? That is can her organize or help organize a 'hit > squad' from the DA which he heads and then they kill LV? That would > be by the 'hand of the other' in that Harry organized the group that > killed LV or does he have to be the one to drop the statue or use the > Unforgiveabel curse agains LV? Can it also be that such a reflection > is by Harry's hand since it is Harry's protection that would reflect > the spell? > > -RJ I think that it is clear through DD's (who, so far, has always been irrefutably correct about the workings of the WW) and Harry's understanding of the professy that Harry will have to personally vanquish V. There comments say that Harry will either have to murder or be murdered. --jsmithqwert From jsmithqwert at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 16:52:08 2003 From: jsmithqwert at hotmail.com (jsmithqwert) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 16:52:08 -0000 Subject: OOP-Harry & Unforgivables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66479 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ugadawg02" wrote: > Spoiler space > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bohcoo wrote:- > > Some of us are upset that Harry attempted the Crucio spell. . . Has > it hit anyone else that, due to the prophecy, Harry is going to > have to -- HAVE to, no choice in the matter -- use Avada Kedavra? > > That is fully possible that Harry will have to use that spell, but > perhaps not, there are I am sure other spells that can be used to > create something to fall on another person crushing them or perhaps > enchat another object to attack the person, so I am not sure he will > have to use Avada Kedavra. Remember he did not use that Unforgivable > Curse when he was furious last time, so he might not have to use it > eventually. Also remember what the prophecy says, it says nothing > directly about him having to directly kill (if I am mistaken forgive > me my g/f has my copy and is reading it still) only that eventually > one must die for the other to live and that we assume only Harry can > bring about this change, but even if he is the only one that does not > mean he has to kill in order to bring about this change. Does it? > > -RJ > > -RJ IMHO, even if Harry or someone else was able to use AK successfully against Voldemort (which I doubt because we have seen that one can avoid it through prompt apparation a la DD), that would not _vanquish_ the Dark Lord forever. The incident surrounding Harry's scar demonstrates that physical death is not enough to rid the world of Voldemort. Harry will have to do something more profound and far more powerful to ensure not only the physical, but also the spritual destruction of Voldemort jsmithqwert From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 17:37:43 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:37:43 -0000 Subject: Babes and Skanks of GoF - Additions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66480 OK, I, Darrin Burnett, left out quite a few people. That's what I get for trying to do the list right before going to work. Additional Babes: Winky - Barty, You Bad Boy Babe Angelina - OY, Angelina! Babe Additional Skanks: Narcissa Malfoy - Inbred, I mean, Pureblood Skank Rita Skeeter - Trashy Tabloid Skank Darrin -- I love the 80s moment: "Rick Springfield COVETS his neighbor's wife..." From jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com Tue Jul 1 17:38:09 2003 From: jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com (jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 12:38:09 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOtP: Kreacher's concoction? Message-ID: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30B022@msgmsp16.norwest.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66481 Hedge2staxy: What if, similar to the theory that Neville's plant might have led some to behave with too much bravey, Sirius really was under the influence of some sort of potion that was given to him by Kreacher or, perhaps, put in a place where Sirius would accidentally ingest it ( maybe in a bottle of the liquor Sirius was drinking ). This raises the question of whether Kreacher can make or obtain such a potion. Also, could Kreacher disobey his master so completely as to essentially poison him? I don't think he could do that so directly. I do believe, though, that Kreacher could purposefully place a potion so that Sirius unwittingly befuddles himself. Me (Jennifer) YES! I had the same thought when reading the book- and was actually puzzled when this never became part of the story! Why else have the snippet about a draught that is able to produce "hot-headedness and recklessness?" The point about Kreacher- and his ability to harm his "master" is well taken, however. It it possible for another family member to give orders to Kreacher that he would have to obey? The Malfoys (and thus the Death Eaters) know Sirius is in London. Has someone gotten to Kreacher? Jennifer From ksheehan at oregon.uoregon.edu Tue Jul 1 16:39:16 2003 From: ksheehan at oregon.uoregon.edu (mrs_monkeypen) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 16:39:16 -0000 Subject: OOP: Darker (wasDisappointing AND Excellent) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66482 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > I thought OoP was a much darker book in tone throughout its entire > length. From Harry's heightened feelings of isolation in the very > first chapter, through the oppressive atmosphere of 12 Grimmauld > Place to the insidious tightening of the Ministry's noose around > Hogwarts to Harry's ominous dreams of the hallway and the door to the > potential loss of personal privacy in communication between people > (intercpeted letters, fireplace lurkeers, etc.), the entire feel of > the book was darker to me. > Yes...it was darker because it was so much more INTERNAL than GoF. Harry was alone with his thoughts for much of the book. There was always a feeling of foreboding throughout the book, and much of the joyousness of the earlier books (Halloween, Christmas, end of year celebrations, for example) were either absent or just less cheery. Whereas JKR has been able to insert bits of lightness and laughter throughout most of the earlier books, there is a real effort with the Fred and George antics to provide breaks from the darkness. I felt like the sun never shown throughout the book. kim From jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com Tue Jul 1 17:40:58 2003 From: jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com (jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 12:40:58 -0500 Subject: Harry/Ginny - Prophecy - Prediction- Some OOP Message-ID: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30B023@msgmsp16.norwest.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66483 That would be a tearjerking ending, however what does by the 'hand of the other' mean? Could it simply mean Harry has to set something in motion that will eventually lead to LV's death or does he himself have to kill LV? That is can her organize or help organize a 'hit squad' from the DA which he heads and then they kill LV? That would be by the 'hand of the other' in that Harry organized the group that killed LV or does he have to be the one to drop the statue or use the Unforgiveabel curse agains LV? Can it also be that such a reflection is by Harry's hand since it is Harry's protection that would reflect the spell? -RJ Why is it such a horrible thought that Harry kills Voldemort? IMO its self-defense- and while I'm sure Harry would prefer not to have to kill anything, when its kill or be killed I have no issue with Harry being the one to strike the blow. -Jennifer From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Tue Jul 1 17:50:55 2003 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:50:55 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: What do you make of this name? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7690016793.20030701105055@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66484 Monday, June 30, 2003, 3:29:21 PM, gailjr2001 wrote: g> What does anyone make of Bellatrix Lestrange's name? Bella I take to g> mean beautiful, and according to my dictionary, -trix is a suffix g> that denotes a female (eg. aviator, aviatrix), though she certainly g> has many tricks up her sleeve! Bellatrix is another star, like Sirius and Regulus. It's a blue supergiant -- massive, bright, short-lived, and destined to become a supernova. And it's in the constellation of Orion, at his left armpit. (The more famous Betelgeuse is the other armpit.) End of today's Astronomy lesson. :) -- Dave From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 1 17:48:38 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 18:48:38 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy References: <1057009862.9824.97383.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001d01c33ff9$011277e0$837c0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 66485 bboy_mn: >The more you post here, the more I like you. You always seem to have >very intelligent well thought out posts, and you even occassionally >agree with me, which is alway a bonus from my point of view. [blush] Just to return the compliment and say that I in turn read your posts with interest. Although we don't put the same interpretation on everything, we seem to have the same take on the WW on most things... >Percy has decided that it is his role in the family to 'do the right >thing' because according to the rules that's what your suppose to do. >He is determeine, subconsciously, to prove that he is as good as his >older brothers, and equally determine to show his younger brother how >a proper Weasley should act. He is determine, not to give his parents >any grief or make any excess demands on them (somewhat of a martyr), >and to make them proud of him. And the more it doesn't work, the >harder he tried to be perfect which in turn makes it work even less >which in turn makes him more determine to do everything absolutely >right until like all disfunctional family roles, it starts to become >distructive. Which in turn means that the Barty Crouch business would leave Percy not only feeling that he'd failed Crouch and the Ministry but also failed the "family expectations". And that would easily turn to anger at there being "family expectations" in the first place, another reason to go off the handle at his father when Arthur accused him of being a spy. >In fact, the conflict between them is already resolved. Percy did what >he thought was right and stood by the Ministry, and it has been proven >that the Ministry was wrong; case closed. So the Percy/Weasley family >war is over, now all they have to do is heal the wounds and sign a >peace treaty. Don't get me wrong, the full return of Percy to the >family will be a rough and rocky road, but the core reason for the >battle has been resolved, so Percy has absolutely no reason to go over >to the Dark Side. Just one final point - the fact that Arthur was the subject of a whispering campaign in the MoM would be another thing which would have made Percy's life more difficult (if that was possible). Think about all those "I _hear_ that Arthur Weasley does _technology_ in his back garden. Tell me, Percy, is it true that they dance naked round fellytones at the full moon? Ha, Ha, Ha" and so on... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From phoenixtears288 at cs.com Tue Jul 1 17:49:31 2003 From: phoenixtears288 at cs.com (phoenixtears288 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 13:49:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP_Black's Family Motto Message-ID: <6728F155.42DAFC52.03BDBC3C@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66486 "pickle_jimmy" wrote: >>>>>And quot;Ever Purequot; or quot;Forever Purequot; didn't come to you?? Wouldn't it be obvious from Mrs Black's abuse of non-purebloods that their motto may have something to do with Pure? Just a thought>>>>> Paige Woods' Reply: OK, I'm with you with the Forever Pure thing. It makes much more sense than the Forever Alone motto. Hmm. I wonder why I didn't get that. ~Paige Woods~ From Joanne0012 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 17:54:07 2003 From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:54:07 -0000 Subject: A start on the preOoP 150+ list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66487 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > > 45. Colin is going to squeak: "Hiya, Harry!!" in an excited voice. > Did we see Colin? Colin is still a fan of Harry's but he seems to be maturing, as we saw him (along with his brother) being an active member of the DA without any of the annoying outbursts of yore. He was also mentioned during the Sorting feast and he reported to Harry about the aftermath of the assault on McGonagall. > 47. Ron will talk with his mouth full > I am certain he must have. Yes, and most creatively, too: During the Sorting feast, he said,"Ow kunnit nofe skusin danger ifzat?" and "'Node iddum eentup sechew." And finally: 13. Vernon Dursley will turn red and resemble a vegetable. Most definitely. This is my nominee for the short list because even though it's obvious in one way, it captures the same sense of humor that we enjoy so much in JKR's writing. Although I don't recall any actual vegetables being used to describe Vernon's complexion this time around. From clreinhart at juno.com Tue Jul 1 17:58:18 2003 From: clreinhart at juno.com (phoenixmum) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:58:18 -0000 Subject: OOtP: Why Weren't the Weasleys in the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66488 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Kirk" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snufflesnbeakie" > wrote: > > I might have missed this topic of conversation, if it had been > > brought up previously, but I was just re-listening to my audio > tape > > version of OOtP and came across something that made me > wonder. . . > > > > When Lupin was reassuring Mrs. Weasley after her terrible > ordeal > > with the boggart - he said that she hadn't been in the order last > > time, so she wouldn't have known that it was different: During the last "war," Mr & Mrs Weasley had 6 or 7 children, many of them quite young, even babies. Perhaps they were "keeping their heads down" to protect their children; Mrs Weasley at least may have been too busy with child care to do much for the Order. From jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com Tue Jul 1 16:37:10 2003 From: jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com (jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 11:37:10 -0500 Subject: OOP: What's in a Name Message-ID: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30B01D@msgmsp16.norwest.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66489 Probably already discussed, rehashed and decided...sorry if this is repeating! Why is the Order of the Phoenix called by that name? I think JKR refers to the Phoenix for 2 reasons: (1) its in keeping with her fascination with star names (i.e. a reference to the Phoenix constellation) and (2) because of the mythical Phoenix- universally known as a symbol of hope and rebirth (which is somewhat the function of the Order). Pursuant to the myth- as long as the Phoenix lives, there will be hope in the world. Jennifer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 18:01:42 2003 From: Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com (newdella) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 18:01:42 -0000 Subject: Death in the Weasley family?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66490 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > > I am sure a Weasley will die, and I think it is likely that it will > be more than one. And my main candidate is Ginny: It's an odd feeling > I have, that Ginny won't make it till the end. > > Hickengruendler Unfortunately, I agree with you. However, I thought of Mollie's scene when she's crying and Lupin is trying to comfort her. She asks who will take care of Ginny and Ron if something happens to them. What if that's a nice bit of foreshadowing and it's Mr. & Mrs. Weasley who die? Just a thought, even though it's an icky one. Rosebeth From phoenixtears288 at cs.com Tue Jul 1 18:02:34 2003 From: phoenixtears288 at cs.com (phoenixtears288 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 14:02:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP:getting in and getting out questions and answers Message-ID: <52735507.1BBAE7E5.03BDBC3C@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66491 "Dan Feeney" wrote: >>>>>As for getting out of the series - how about portkeying (by hook or crook) Voldemort to the front of the arch, and then broomsticking him through (as he pulls Harry with him)? (don't quote me on the broomsticking thing, okay?) How about portkeying Voldemort into quot;the roomquot;? How does one trick Voldemort? It would have to sound very rational, very straightforward, no hint of a trick. He can't really be forced, can he? Gotta create doubt, or great desire, in Voldemort's mind. Can a person or animal be a portkey?>>>>> Paige Woods' Reply: I don't know why not a person or animal can be a portkey if the wizard who put the spell on the person/animal is very powerful. Hmm... I just got another idea for my fanfic. OK, off topic. As for your theory, I don't think it will work. ~Paige Woods~ From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Tue Jul 1 18:06:46 2003 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 11:06:46 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Grimmauld Place > Sirius' parentage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17490967873.20030701110646@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66492 Monday, June 30, 2003, 7:11:37 PM, Rach wrote: R> What puzzles me is that Sirius tells Harry that Kreacher was more R> loyal to Sirius' mother than his father. Apart from when they are R> cleaning out the cabinet in the drawing room, there are very few R> references to his father at all. Its an icky thought, but could his R> Mother also have been a Black or at least a member of the Black R> dynasty? I know that not so long ago marrying first cousins "to keep the property in the family" was not uncommon, and I just heard that in twenty states it's *still* legal (dunno about the UK). So I'm betting that Sirius' parents were first cousins, both bearing the name Black. What amazes me is that the DEs/Slytherins haven't all died out from all those centuries of chronic inbreeding. If nothing else, Dumbledore's side is *healthier*. :) -- Dave From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 18:05:26 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 18:05:26 -0000 Subject: OoP: Re: Question - inheritance thread...(& Winky) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66493 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Heather Gauen > wrote: > > > > Actually, wouldn't it be kind of a moot point (at > > least for now) whether or not Sirius made a will? As > > long as 12 Grimmauld Place is still under the Fidelius > > charm, no one can get to it or anything inside of it > > except the Order, and I'm assuming that they'll keep > > it as headquarters for however long they need and then > > give it to Harry. (Somehow I can't see them turning it > > over to anyone in Sirius' family!) Just a thought. > > > Marianne: > > There is one (point)... on in the inheritance question. ... go to > whatever authorities ... tell them Sirius is dead? Can't > produce a body,...? How do I know that Sirius isn't still the > on-the-lam escaped criminal heir to the Black property/fortune? > > Is Dumbledore's word sufficient proof? > > Marianne bboy_mn: Good point. As long as no one makes an official declaration that Sirius is dead, the estate will hand in limbo. So the Order can continue to use it. But at some point, the estate will have to be resolved. They could stumble across Black's Will, and find out who gets what. Or they could simple speculate about it in conversation; and suggest that Harry would be the recipient. It would seem that there are at the point where there are no qualified decendants, and I could speculate that the estate would be divided up amoung remaining relatives in proportion to how closely related they are. I think Narcissa and Mrs. Lestrange would be very close as would Tonks, a little farther out would be Mr. Weasley by blood, and Mrs. Weasley by marriage. I seems like there was some vague mention of Arthur having brothers in the book, although I can't remember exactly where, so the estate could be spread even thinner. Just on general principle, I would like to see the Weasleys and/or Harry inherit the bulk of the estate. If Mr. & Mrs. Weasley inherit the house, I think Winky would make the perfect replacement house elf for Kreacher. I think Winky doesn't just needs a family to serve personally. Working at Hogwarts is too impersonal. Just a thought. bboy_mn From srsiriusblack at aol.com Tue Jul 1 18:06:57 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 14:06:57 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Houses and Percy Message-ID: <144.148fcba4.2c3327c1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66494 Hello nina.baker at uk.faulding.com, In reference to your comment: ? --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, digger ? wrote: > scaryfairymary ? wrote: > > > >> Calimora wrote: > ? > > > > > << Slytherin house ? doesn't seem to gather all of ambitious people > ? > >> > > > > > > I've ? always felt that Slytherin House accumulates not so ? much the > > > ambitious as the ? unscrupulous, those who aren't picky about what > ? > > means they use to achieve their ends, even ? if their ends are > > > un-ambitious things like ? "obey Draco". > > > > > > I always ? wondered why Percy was not sorted into Slytherin. Well, too, remember, we never saw Percy's sorting.... It may be possible that the sorting hat had a difficult time placing Percy, and as with Harry, all he had to do was 'think' he wasn't right for Slytherin. -snuffles from behind the veil "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom ========Original Message======== Subj: [HPforGrownups] Re: Houses and Percy Date: 7/1/2003 7:14:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: nina.baker at uk.faulding.com Reply-to: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent from the Internet (Details) --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, digger wrote: > scaryfairymary wrote: > > > >> Calimora wrote: > > > > > > << Slytherin house doesn't seem to gather all of ambitious people > > >> > > > > > > I've always felt that Slytherin House accumulates not so much the > > > ambitious as the unscrupulous, those who aren't picky about what > > > means they use to achieve their ends, even if their ends are > > > un-ambitious things like "obey Draco". > > > > > > I always wondered why Percy was not sorted into Slytherin. He > > certainly has the ambition and the will to do pretty much anything > > for power. I never liked Percy (as my many posts on the 'Percy is > > evil' issue many moons ago can verify :) ) and I see his behaviour > > towards his family in OOP as vinidication of my position. I am not > > seeking to reopen the Percy debate, merely trying to ascertain why > > he was put in Gryffindor. He is not brave in the slightest, he only > > seems to want to be the favour of whoever is seen to have the most > > authority at any given time, McGonnagal and Dumbledore, then Crouch > > sr, now Fudge. It will be interesting to see if he changes colours > > again in the next book when it seems DD will once again be the 'main > > man'. In many ways he reminds me of Pettigrew > > > > > > -Mary > > > I think its plain that Slytherins will use *any* means to achieve their > ambition, whereas Gryffs just won't be that ruthless; their compassion > and ethics won't allow them. So Percy might be out on a limb, but he > won't go over to the dark side completely. However, that does give him > leeway to behave like Fudge and Crouch Snr, whom he has/had great > respect for, so the actal result could be just as bad............ > > ugh, not looking forward to reading *that* part in book six, but > expecting it just the same. > > digger I think people have confused the 'mean Percy' issue with him being EverSoEvil! Percy's failings have come entirely from believing his superiors in his job rather than his parents who (as we all have done in our teens and early twenties) he sees great faults in. Bravery comes in many guises (as JKR is always showing us), and one of those is courage of conviction. Now, no one said those convictions would always be the *right* ones, so Percy has made an error of judgement but is certainly not evil. He's fallen into the Fudge mode and is a blinkered fool but not evil. My hope for the start of Book 6 is for Percy to come back home full of remorse and, Arthur and Molly being the fantastic people they are, forgive him. However, I hope that one of his brothers (and my money would be on Charlie) gives him the dressing down of his life about the family sticking together, gives him a good punch in the jaw and then hugs him! Nina (very angry with Percy but not hating him quite so much as others - Umbridge anyone?!) ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Tue Jul 1 18:31:05 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 18:31:05 -0000 Subject: OotP: Harry's Wand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66495 In Chapter One, Harry manages to get his wand to light up, even though he is not holding it. Many people consider this to be an example of wandless magic, but I am not so sure. I think that *true* wandless magic would be Harry producing light from his hand, without a wand at all. Harry clearly is magically powerful, more so than Snape at the same age (who could not use his wand without holding it), but I think that Apparating to the roof to escape (PS/SS)is much more impressive. On the other hand, this example does show Harry's increasing control over his magic, as does his directing his Patronus's movements in the same chapter. Bill From phoenixtears288 at cs.com Tue Jul 1 18:30:07 2003 From: phoenixtears288 at cs.com (phoenixtears288 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 14:30:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP: =?ISO-8859-1?B?oEhlcm1pb25lIGFuZCB0aGUgREFEQSBQcm9m?= Message-ID: <0A4943EF.73CC83E4.03BDBC3C@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66496 "Eric Oppen" wrote: >>>>>Well, one thing we saw again in OoP was confirmation of something I've told my learned colleagues on here before: Behind the quot;good girl, getting good gradesquot; facade, Hermione Granger has a steely streak that I, for one, would not want to mess with.nbsp; To put it bluntly, the girl's ruthless as all-get-out when she decides it's time to be. Leading That Woman into the Forbidden Forest, after they'd been warned off by the centaurs, took a lot of cold-blooded courage on Hermione's part (and Harry's, but it was Hermione's idea from the beginning); the centaurs could have had a quot;shoot first, ask questions laterquot; policy going on, and all three of them could have ended up looking like hedgehogs from the arrows sticking out of their bodies.nbsp; In situations like that, a quot;Sorry 'bout thatquot; is, to say the least, slightly inadequate. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see the final showdown turning, at least in part, on Vmort underestimating Hermione's courage and single-minded ruthlessness, whether it's because she's a Mudblood, er, Muggle-born, or because she's a quot;mere slip of a girl.quot;nbsp; He's underestimated women before, and paid for it (remember Lily?) so dismissing Hermione on account of her gender would be nothing new for him.nbsp; The only kind of women he seems to have any time for are those who lick his boots, like Bellatrix. Come to it...one of the admittedly farther-fetched theories I tossed out pre-OOP was that Hermione would turn out to be Ever So Evil, and possibly become the new Dark menace.nbsp; What she did to That Woman---on the one hand, we all applauded, we all knew that That Woman had it coming (and I do wonder_what_ the centaurs did to her?) but at the same time, she _did_ conspire to violate school rules in a spectacular fashion, and she _did_ knowingly lead That Woman into a situation where she could easily have ended up dead, dead, dead.nbsp; Like if Grawp had found them first. She's also not one to be deterred from what she wants by mere facts (like the fact that the house-elves find her attempts to stir them up and free them offensive) or by her friends.nbsp; If her long-term goal is to be Ever So Evil and the new Dark Mistress of the wizard world, she's not done anything so far that would work against _that_ goal.nbsp; And she'd be a lot better menace than that nurd Vmort, too.>>>>> Paige Woods' Reply: I have a question. *If* Hermione *did* turn evil, who would she go after? I mean, I don't think she'd go all Voldy on us and kill people like her, would she? I don't like the thought of Hermione killing Muggle-borns and Harry/Ron/Ginny/Neville/Luna. ~Paige Woods~ From shokoono at gmx.de Tue Jul 1 17:34:35 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:34:35 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A start on the preOoP 150+ list References: <013d01c33f95$606c1980$54ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: <00b201c33fff$cdf06500$aef3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 66497 Just keep on doing it. I really do enjoy it for I wasn't able to pay attention to it when it was current..... Yours Finchen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kelly Grosskreutz" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 7:55 AM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] A start on the preOoP 150+ list > > From: "M.Clifford" > > > Pre OoP we had a 200 strong list of unsinkable predictions. Here I > > have listed the first quarter of them and given my own opinion on how > > they fared. > > I would like to propose that we shortlist the best and worst of this > > list and file it for posterity. > > Anyone else in? > >(snip) > > Goodness am I up to 57 already. > > Well I will post this as is and hope for some feedback on the > > shortlist. I guess I wasn't harsh enough at picking the worst from > > this group so be my guest everyone else. > > Here's your feedback: Keep this up! I just sent a post asking for this > list to be reposted and/or uploaded somewhere, and I want to see the rest. > Thanks for doing what you've done so far. > > Kelly Grosskreutz > http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From shokoono at gmx.de Tue Jul 1 18:35:23 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 20:35:23 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Continue to snape half-vampire theory by a newbie :)(long!) References: Message-ID: <00bd01c33fff$d32036e0$aef3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 66498 Well it's been what I said while I singed up here (not long ago) in a very good summary and tha adds belonging to OOP are also very good. I still believe that Snape is a half vampire. Tell me, did you read about the Perseus-Theory??? What do you think of it?? Yours Finchen ----- Original Message ----- From: "icewalker08" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 4:46 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Continue to snape half-vampire theory by a newbie :)(long!) Hello every body : This my first post here though i am a fan of HP saga for about 4 years :) after reading book five for second time (atfirst time i only found more questions!!) many facts appeared to me so i thought to share some of them here and some other HP boards which i go sometimes and enjoy reading :)(thoeories ofcourse , with all respect for fanfic writers i dont read fanfics) There is a snape being vampire or half-vampire theory allaround which now,after reading book 5,i am 100% agree with it! YES he is a half-vampire,first here are the old clues,though as other dear HPfans guessed them before (book 1-4) i will pass them fast: Book one:All Quirrel stuffs:looking for vampire book,garlic & saying that Snape is like a big bat and all other points that JKR said about Snape which brings vampire in your mind... Book two:Again resembles to vampires :sallow skin ,gliding over like a large and malevolent bat and ........ Book three:Lupin's vampire essay right after werewolf essay,again resembles and .... Book four:again resembles or points In another word ,as all you knew before,JKR mentioned vampires many times in her books and most of them have been when which Snape has been around. and now....the clues in book 5 which atlast make me accept that he is half-vampire: Book five :there are again resembles and points specially in the Snape's Worst Memory (which i am sure it is his worst memory in harry's point of view not snape) anyway here my guesses : 1)Snape-the-teenager had a stringy, pallid look about him, like a plant kept in the dark. His hair was lank and greasy and was flopping on to the table, his hooked nose barely half an inch from the surface of the parchment as he scribbled. ........skinny, pallid legs ........a greasy-haired teenager sat alone in a dark bedroom, pointing his wand at the ceiling, shooting down flies >>>>again resembles and also why JKR mentioned specially a dark room? and why he looked at his parchment so closely while he can catch the small flies in dark room? isnt that because his eyes cant see in light day very good but see excellent in dark? 2)call him Snivellus,Greasy hair (as past books) and pair of greying underpants >>>do you know that vampires or half-vampires dont like running water??well maybe he washs his face,hair and cloths VERY SELDOM cause he doesnt like water (i dont mean it harms him,no he is half vampire but he doesnt like it as he doesnt like light but can bear it) though i must add this calling him Snivellus might have another reason which i am not 100% sure about it and greying underpants can be answered in no.4 too. 3)'Well,' said James, appearing to deliberate the point, 'it's more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean.' >>>>>In FB books it said :The centaurs objected to being classed as Beings along with vampires.... i guess here james played with words and JKR has given us the clue before :Exist can also mean as ,he is being ...beings 4)called him OLD Snivelly (also JKR called him old snape in Albert hall) >>>>well vampires or half ones are NOT imortal (as i read ) but they do age at one-tenth the human rate. So, for every ten years that pass, they only grow one year older. (Half-vampires age at one-fifth the human rate.) 5)Snape was hanging upside-down in the air.... >>>>arent the bats usually hanging upside-down from trees???james did it by mean. 6)gripping Harry's arm so tightly Harry's hand was starting to feel numb....... >>>>although vampires are so thin , they are sooo powerful so i guess JKR wanted to show us this point. Well he can be half-vampire or something like that,yes maybe some of you say that even half-vampires need human blood even if they can act like human , but in answer i must say it is magic world ,JKR magic world !.Didnt Lockhart told them a story of a vampire who had been unable to eat anything except lettuce since Lockhart had dealt with him? (well we know he didnt do that himself ;) but someone should have done it!atleast there must be magic like that) and how he became one?well several ways ....among them are :The persons who turn vampires are generally wizards, witches Those who practiced black magic ,or child of vampire and normal human or maybe he cursed when he was child (remember the small child which harry seen in his memory , JkR just mention him as black haired child,for first time we havent the Greasy word!) Small note here:i guess Hermione knows it (in book 2 ,JKR mentioned for about 4 times! that she is reading "Voyages with Vampires"book ,in no other places she mentioned the book that she read or carries for 4 times!)she may still in doubt or as she trusts DD , keep it as secret. and about what JKR said in Albert hall about DADA post:she said DD wanted to see what he will do as potion master first ....so she cleared us :) he is half vampire -half human and DD thinks that dark arts will awake his dark part more. atlast Thank you for reading my post :)i waiting to hear your comments :) also...i want to say that atlast after reading book five i found the main plot of harry potter saga too!i am so excited about that but i decided to not reveal it as i know nobody wants to spoiled!!! also its JKR book not me , so better i keep its secret!i am 98% sure!i said my idea about vampire story cause many ppl said that before and it seems she wants us to know that but main plot is another thing.ofcourse some details can be different but i am sure. i found all answers in this plot :) the important clues are in books 1,3 and 5 specially book three ,infact book 5 helped me to find keys in book three . i hope she doesnt change this plot because IT IS AWESOME :)) ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From shokoono at gmx.de Tue Jul 1 18:16:03 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 20:16:03 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP : Snape's worst memory (as far as we know) References: Message-ID: <00bc01c33fff$d25c98c0$aef3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 66499 I find Professor Snape to be a very interesting character. I think it's obvious that he's on the side of "good" now, but it's hard for him to work with the people who ridiculed him when he was back in school. Dumbledore is probably the only person who ever ALWAYS treated him with respect, which would explain Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore. I think Dumbledore understands this part of Snape's personality, and he's really trying to help Harry get along with Snape by guiding him to treat Snape with respect, also! -- Cherie :) Me: Yeah, that sounds more than reasonable to me.... this could really be real . Yours Finchen ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 4:16 PM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP : Snape's worst memory (as far as we know) > In a message dated 6/30/2003 11:34:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > ugadawg02 at yahoo.com writes: > > > There is that, but Harry is not the only one to call Dumbledore > > simply Dumbledore is he? But he is the only one to call Snape, Snape. > > Other adults may call him Severus, but I know of few that do not call > > him Professor Snape, however almost all at one time have called > > Dumbledore simply Dumbledore or at least refered to him that way in > > front of Harry. > > Hi! > > This is my first post, but I've been reading messages for a couple of days. > This is a great list! > > I find Professor Snape to be a very interesting character. I think it's > obvious that he's on the side of "good" now, but it's hard for him to work with > the people who ridiculed him when he was back in school. Dumbledore is probably > the only person who ever ALWAYS treated him with respect, which would explain > Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore. I think Dumbledore understands this part of > Snape's personality, and he's really trying to help Harry get along with Snape > by guiding him to treat Snape with respect, also! > -- > Cherie :) > > http://members.aol.com/justcherie > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From shokoono at gmx.de Tue Jul 1 17:56:03 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:56:03 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Dementors (was : Re: OOP: Petunia and Azkaban) References: Message-ID: <00ba01c33fff$d0eded90$aef3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 66500 But even created creatures , or those which seem likely to be created, are mentioned in "Fantastic beasts", e.g. the Quintapeds or the Acrumatula.... There must be a more "dark" reason why they are not mentioned.... Yours Finchen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doriane" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 11:10 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Dementors (was : Re: OOP: Petunia and Azkaban) > > > Thet dementors were allready guarding Azkaban in the first war > > > for Petunia knows they do and she heared James tell this Lilly so > > > it could only be possibly while the first war. > > > > > > Yous Finchen > > Ah yes, right, I forgot about that. > > > But we don't actually know that it is James and Lily Petunia is > > referring to when she says "that awful boy" and "her." She never > > says their names, Harry only assumes she is speaking of his > > parents. > > > > KathyK > > Could be that. > Could also be that the Dementors were created during the first war. I > can picture James being so excited by the news of their creation (it > would have been quite a shock IMO, the creation of something so > monstruous) that he would forget to be cautious and discuss it with > Lily within earshot of a Muggle (Petunia). > Oh, and maybe they weren't created, maybe they were just recruited by > the MoM during the first war, with the promise of dozens of souls to > suck on forever. But I seem to remember that someone said that the > Dementors are never mentioned in Fantastic Beasts, neither as beasts, > beings nor spirits, which would support the theory of them having > been created. Also the way they are talked about in the books seems a > bit stange to me : the Dementors are the guardians of Azkaban. But > guarding Azkaban is their job, no more. Or is it ? Is it in fact > their very reason to exist, the only thing they've been created to > do ? By the way, does someone know if Azkaban existed before the > first war ? I guess it did, but does it say so anywhere in canon ? > > Huh, I guess I'm getting a bit delirious :-) > > Doriane > > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From phoenixtears288 at cs.com Tue Jul 1 18:37:25 2003 From: phoenixtears288 at cs.com (phoenixtears288 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 14:37:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP: Will Draco be back at Hogwarts next year??? Message-ID: <3EF2632E.41F56BB7.03BDBC3C@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66501 "Tamara" wrote: >>>>> Will Lucius Malfoy want to send his son back to a school run by the head of the Order of the Pheonix?nbsp; Someone who is responsible for sending him to Azkaban and is fighting against the Dark Lord??>>>>> Paige Woods' Reply: The question really is: Why is Lucius Malfoy *STILL* sending his send to Dumbledore's school? After writing that last question, I can safely say that Voldemort/L.Malfoy want to have someone there to spy on Dumbledore and Harry. Now that sounds likely, which tells me that isn't it. ~Paige Woods~ From shokoono at gmx.de Tue Jul 1 17:43:00 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:43:00 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Death in the Weasley family?! References: Message-ID: <00b801c33fff$cf949f20$aef3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 66502 Ginny at least would be too obvious, for she allready was endangered and as one of the twins said she is a very powerful wich. If you like it more to be a tragedy I think it will be Percy. I can imagine that LV will attac Fudge and Percy is quite close to him, isn't he? So he could die protecting his boss. For he is in rage with his family it could happen before they can clear that out. It xould also be one of the members of the family allready being within the Order (will Fred and George have joined in book 6? They're out of school now and out of age!). But that would also be too bovious and JK really seems to me to be an author that loves the unforseen. So I personally think it might be Percy to die. Yours Finchen ----- Original Message ----- From: "hickengruendler" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 9:44 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Death in the Weasley family?! > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sleepygirl003" > wrote: > > > > > > > I say: > > > > The Weasley's are untouchable! They can't die, they just can't! > > Arthur's injury (in OoP) and Ginny's close call (in CoS) were the > > closest they will come, because... because they just aren't the > dying > > sorts! They are all too important--except for Bill and Charlie, who > > are too unimportant. Unless JKR makes some very dramatic plot > > changes--changes that will completely eject HP from the Children's > lit > > genre, I can't bear imagining that any, ANY Weasleys will die. > > > > > > I am sure a Weasley will die, and I think it is likely that it will > be more than one. And my main candidate is Ginny: It's an odd feeling > I have, that Ginny won't make it till the end. > > Hickengruendler > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From shokoono at gmx.de Tue Jul 1 17:51:40 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:51:40 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP: Will Draco be back at Hogwarts next year??? References: Message-ID: <00b901c33fff$d048d3f0$aef3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 66503 Has Lucius any other opportunity left now that Draco made his OWLs? And wouldn't it be best for draco to seem to be diffrent from what his father is, for he will turn out to be a future DE? (Not that I think that he could fool DD) Yours Finchen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tamara" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 11:15 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP: Will Draco be back at Hogwarts next year??? > Will Lucius Malfoy want to send his son back to a school run by the > head of the Order of the Pheonix? Someone who is responsible for > sending him to Azkaban and is fighting against the Dark Lord?? > > Tamara > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From shokoono at gmx.de Tue Jul 1 18:04:28 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 20:04:28 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Sirius, Phineas, Portraits (possible spoilers if you haven't read much) References: Message-ID: <00bb01c33fff$d1a9ea90$aef3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 66504 I'd really love to see Padfoot again but as JK once netioned we won't see somebody dead again it think it quite unlikely (unfortunately). A picture of him would be like it. So I'm sorry to say that but Sirius seems to be kept out of the following two books. A reason for this could be that this would make it a little easyer for Harry to sacrifice his own life to kill Voldemort.... where nothing's left except for pain you're quite willing to leave. Yours Finchen ----- Original Message ----- From: "ugadawg02" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 2:14 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Sirius, Phineas, Portraits (possible spoilers if you haven't read much) > > >>> Actually, I was kinda wondering. Do you have to be dead for the > portraits to "come alive" rather than just flitting in and out? I > mean, I know that pictures are animated, such as newspapers and > Colin's pictures, and even the trading cards. But of the paintings, > do we really know of one of someone who is alive? > Julie > > I guess that is possible, perhaps we will learn more in the next few > books, but is this not the frist time we have actually seen paintings > mentioned this in depth, could they have be different because they > are painted rather then a photograph of an actually time? (if someone > else has mentioned this idea forgive me, I have not seen it in my > review of several posts)I always thought photographs were instant > images of a frozen moment in time so the people were not > really 'alive' but paintings are more magic in that they can bring to > life a frozen moment in time, a fine line I know but it is something > that I am thinking might happen. > > -RJ > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From starropal at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 18:45:07 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 13:45:07 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Babes and Skanks of GoF - Additions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66505 Mmm, you, urm, still missed some... Trelawny - Leave Me the Hell Alone, I Didn't See Anything Babe Bertha Jorkins - Curiosity Killed the Cat Babe Arabella Figg - Is She Mrs. Figg?! Babe Veelas - Don't Piss 'em Off Babes I can't bring myself to put anyone in the Skank list, I just... can't. Please don't be upset with me for taking up the I Love the '80s format. Just. Too. Tempting! Where's the Hunks list huh? Star '84 Opal Whenever your head explodes, uh, that's a tricky situation - Tom Arnold _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 1 18:49:08 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:49:08 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Teachers' Housing (very very slight OoP reference) References: <1057035507.8017.13048.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <005c01c34001$74925d40$837c0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 66506 Leslianne: >Where dothe hogwarts staff live? We're seen MM in a dressing gown, so >she must live in the castle somewhere. And why are the all single and >without children? is that a criteria for professorship? Hogwarts is a _big_ place and there's lots of it that we haven't seen. I would imagine that it's able to offer accommodation to any of the staff that need it. I don't think that most of the staff are _required_ live in apart from those who might have duties that would need them to be there outside teaching hours (Dumbledore, the four Heads of Houses, Hagrid, Pomfrey, Filch...) The depiction of the Ministry in OoP with the staff arriving for work was interesting and I would see similar methods being used by those Hogwarts staff who don't live in (subject of course to the fact that they can't Apparate in - perhaps those who prefer to Apparate arrive in Zabini's caff in Hogsmeade and pick up a coffee and a bacon butty before strolling up to work!) JKR has hinted that more could be said about whether or not the professors are or were married but to date nothing has aired in the books. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From jsmithqwert at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 17:12:25 2003 From: jsmithqwert at hotmail.com (jsmithqwert) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:12:25 -0000 Subject: Wizarding Relations, or, Who Left the Sna pes Out? In-Reply-To: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30B006@msgmsp16.norwest.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66507 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jennifer.r.junker at w... wrote: > You're following in my footsteps. See message #63570. I'm sure > there's more to the Black clan than we realize. > > Marianne > > Well of course there must be- look at their last name after all! If any > family is likely to be a stronghold of "dark" wizards I would think the > "Black" family would be :) I wonder if somehow they are related to > Voldemort- am I correctly remembering that we don't know much about Tom > Riddle's mother? And if Voldemort is related to Sirius- the Harry in some > sense is too- as Voldemort and Harry now share a blood bond. > > Jennifer I don't think that Voldemort is related to either Sirius or Harry. For that matter, we know from CoS that he is the last remaining descendent of Salazar Slytherine and, therefore, cannot be related to any other extent person. If he truly is the _last_, than no one else who is related to him can be alive because they too, would be descendents of Salazar. I think it quite unusual that after over 1000 years, Slytherine's descendents are so few. Something very unusual must be going on that prevents the normal outward radiation of descendency. In the muggle world, for example, virtually everyone who has any European ancestry is a descendent of Charlamange. What could be going on in the WW, that prevents descendents of Slytherine from being more numerous? From rstephens at northwestern.edu Tue Jul 1 18:57:57 2003 From: rstephens at northwestern.edu (rachelbeth007) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 18:57:57 -0000 Subject: Babes and Skanks of GoF - HUNK list is on its WAY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66508 Ladies, I'm working on it! I'll have it out soon! --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Star Opal" wrote: > Mmm, you, urm, still missed some... > > Trelawny - Leave Me the Hell Alone, I Didn't See Anything Babe > > Bertha Jorkins - Curiosity Killed the Cat Babe > > Arabella Figg - Is She Mrs. Figg?! Babe > > Veelas - Don't Piss 'em Off Babes > > I can't bring myself to put anyone in the Skank list, I just... can't. > Please don't be upset with me for taking up the I Love the '80s format. > Just. Too. Tempting! > > Where's the Hunks list huh? > > Star '84 Opal > Whenever your head explodes, uh, that's a tricky situation - Tom Arnold > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Tue Jul 1 19:01:21 2003 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 12:01:21 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OotP: Harry's Wand In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17094243951.20030701120121@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66509 Tuesday, July 1, 2003, 11:31:05 AM, mongo62aa wrote: m> On the other hand, this example does show Harry's increasing control m> over his magic, as does his directing his Patronus's movements in m> the same chapter. Yes, indeed -- I didn't even realize you could *do* that. (I thought the Patronus just travelled whatever way your wand was pointing...) -- Dave (Who *still* wants to know what D's, Lupin's, and Ron's Patroni are, and whether any of them will at any point have to use them against a Lethifold) From jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com Tue Jul 1 18:59:21 2003 From: jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com (jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 13:59:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding Relations, or, Who Left the Sna pes Out? Message-ID: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30B02E@msgmsp16.norwest.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66510 I don't think that Voldemort is related to either Sirius or Harry. For that matter, we know from CoS that he is the last remaining descendent of Salazar Slytherine and, therefore, cannot be related to any other extent person. If he truly is the _last_, than no one else who is related to him can be alive because they too, would be descendents of Salazar. I think it quite unusual that after over 1000 years, Slytherine's descendents are so few. Something very unusual must be going on that prevents the normal outward radiation of descendency. In the muggle world, for example, virtually everyone who has any European ancestry is a descendent of Charlamange. What could be going on in the WW, that prevents descendents of Slytherine from being more numerous? ************************************************************************ Well, yes he could be related- if Salazar had siblings (or other relatives), and they had descendants- those descendants would be related to Voldemort although not be descendents of Slytherine himself. As far as your question about why is Slytherine's line dying out- that's a good question- and one not only applicable to the Slytherine line. Perhaps the inbreeding is catching up to them by causing them not to produce viable descendants. Jennifer From tcmtcmtcm at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 18:14:27 2003 From: tcmtcmtcm at yahoo.com (tcmtcmtcm) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 18:14:27 -0000 Subject: Concise Description of Each House Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66511 Here's my take on a concise description of each house at Hogwarts: Slytherin: The ends *always* justify the means Hufflepuff: The ends *never* justify the means Gryffindor: Tne ends sometimes justify the means, depends on the ends and the means Ravenclaw: I'm still studying whether the ends justify the means :) Notes -- Slytherin - This is more idealized than the books indicate. Current members of Slytherin are just a stereotype of evil. Hufflepuff - See actions of Cedric in GoF Gryffindor - See actions of HRH throughout the series Ravenclaw - Hard to tell from just Cho tcmtcmtcm From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 19:15:49 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 19:15:49 -0000 Subject: Babes and Skanks of GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66512 > Pansy Parkinson - Hermione Showed You Up, Didn't She, Bitch? Skank > Darrin > -- I love the 80s moment: "E.T. taught me to hate the government, > because they will come in and take your alien pet." Darrin you are doing a great job! But this is my all-time favorite. You made me laugh on this ugly birthday I'm having. Thank you. :-D Greicy From jsmithqwert at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 19:06:11 2003 From: jsmithqwert at hotmail.com (jsmithqwert) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 19:06:11 -0000 Subject: Wizarding Relations, or, Who Left the Sna pes Out? In-Reply-To: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30B02E@msgmsp16.norwest.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66513 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jennifer.r.junker at w... wrote: > I don't think that Voldemort is related to either Sirius or Harry. > For that matter, we know from CoS that he is the last remaining > descendent of Salazar Slytherine and, therefore, cannot be related to > any other extent person. If he truly is the _last_, than no one else > who is related to him can be alive because they too, would be > descendents of Salazar. I think it quite unusual that after over > 1000 years, Slytherine's descendents are so few. Something very > unusual must be going on that prevents the normal outward radiation > of descendency. In the muggle world, for example, virtually everyone > who has any European ancestry is a descendent of Charlamange. What > could be going on in the WW, that prevents descendents of Slytherine > from being more numerous? > ********************************************************************** ** > > Well, yes he could be related- if Salazar had siblings (or other relatives), > and they had descendants- those descendants would be related to Voldemort > although not be descendents of Slytherine himself. As far as your question > about why is Slytherine's line dying out- that's a good question- and one > not only applicable to the Slytherine line. Perhaps the inbreeding is > catching up to them by causing them not to produce viable descendants. > > Jennifer Well, I certainly agree that Salazar could have had siblings or other relatives, but the division between those people and Salazar would have had to remain distinct for 1000 years in order for V to be his last remaining descendent. Even if there are people who have descended from Salazar's family, the relation would be back so many years that it would be irrelevent (even for the House of Black, which, if I remember correctly, traces itself back to the 1500's). The similarity between V and a descendent of one of these other people would be like the similarity between Harry and Voldemort or between Hagrid and Voldemort. For that matter, Hermeione and Voldemort would probably be more closely related (we know that Salazar's descendents bred with muggles because of V's mother). jsmithqwert From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 19:18:17 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 19:18:17 -0000 Subject: Other LV relatives; Belletrix, Narcissa & Sirius (was: Wizarding Relations) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66514 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jsmithqwert" wrote: > I don't think that Voldemort is related to either Sirius or > Harry. For that matter, we know from CoS that he is the last > remaining descendent of Salazar Slytherine and, therefore, cannot > be related to any other extent person. If he truly is the _last_, > than no one else who is related to him can be alive because they > too, would be descendents of Salazar. That isn't quite true. Let's say that it is on his mother's father's side that he is related to Slytherin (since his mum was said to have given him the middle name "Marvolo" after her father). There's still his mother's mother's family. He could have a whole slew of relatives through that relationship, and while they wouldn't also be related to Slytherin, like him, they WOULD be related to Tom Riddle/Voldemort. So there's no reason to believe that Voldemort couldn't have distant cousins and great aunts/uncles through the non- Slytherin-related relatives. I still don't think that Harry is related to him, nor Sirius, though. I'm not sure what purpose this would serve. For that matter, I felt rather like Narcissa Malfoy being born Narcissa Black was just conceived of for this book, purely for the purpose of Kreacher considering her to be family, so he could go off and use the excuse that he was still with a family member to whom he was supposed to be loyal. After all, Harry gives fairly good descriptions of both Bellatrix Lestrange (nee Black) and of Narcissa Malfoy (nee Black) in GoF, and they don't seem like they could genetically be full sisters. Belletrix is described as having very dark coloring, whereas Narcissa has very fair hair (and, I think, light eyes, but I'd have to check GoF again--if she doesn't have light eyes, it would be against the odds for her son to have inherited his father's light eye color). I think putting all of these people into the same family was probably a last-minute affair, and something I found to be a little irksome (although not as much as using the tapestry to communicate the info about the family tree). Another thing, from PoA, which makes it seem that JKR hadn't thought all along of Narcissa being Sirius' cousin, is the way Draco Malfoy talks about Sirius, especially when he's suggesting to Harry that HE would go and hunt down Sirius himself if he were in Harry's shoes. In light of OotP it just doesn't ring true. If Draco Malfoy were related to Sirius Black, he'd probably be gloating to Harry about how his cousin had fooled Harry's stupid parents into thinking he was their friend, before handing them over to Voldemort, and that he hoped Sirius, his cousin, got away scot-free. It's all very well and good to introduce new ideas, and even for her to have had brainstorms that didn't occur until the writing of a subsequent book (I'm sure there's plenty of things she might have first thought of that will never make it into the books, and I'm glad she went with Rita Skeeter instead of the Weasley cousin in GoF), but with this one it just doesn't seem that she thought about whether it was plausible in light of what went before. Another purpose of it could be, in general, to make it seem that pureblooded wizards are very inbred, but I don't think that we needed the tapestry to come to that conclusion. ;) --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From jeopardy18 at attbi.com Tue Jul 1 19:03:59 2003 From: jeopardy18 at attbi.com (seanmulligan2000) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 19:03:59 -0000 Subject: Ootp, Voldemort, Tom, and CoS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66515 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amanitamuscaria1" wrote: > I was thinking about the prediction and Voldemort, and that he'd > worked out how to leave his 'sixteen-year self' in the diary, and > later saying to Harry that his(Tom Riddle's) goal was no longer > killing Mudbloods, but to kill Harry? > Is the youthful, murderous Tom following a prophecy of his own? > How does he know he'll need to leave behind a shade of himself? > How, then, does that shade change its' goals and set out to kill > Harry? > Does Lord V. have any sort of mind link to this offshoot of himself? > Does Lord V. tell y.m. Tom to concentrate on H.P.? > So many questions - I can't help thinking Book 6 will be just as > long, if not longer - Yippee! > Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria Voldemort left his sixteen year old self in an enchanted diary so that his sixteen year old self could open the Chamber of Secrets again and kill all the mudbloods. Tom found out about Harry from Ginny. Seanmulligan2000 From jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com Tue Jul 1 19:26:43 2003 From: jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com (jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 12:26:43 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Other LV relatives; Belletrix, Narcissa & Sir ius (was: Wizarding Relations) Message-ID: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30B032@msgmsp16.norwest.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66516 Barb: That isn't quite true. Let's say that it is on his mother's father's side that he is related to Slytherin (since his mum was said to have given him the middle name "Marvolo" after her father). There's still his mother's mother's family. He could have a whole slew of relatives through that relationship, and while they wouldn't also be related to Slytherin, like him, they WOULD be related to Tom Riddle/Voldemort. So there's no reason to believe that Voldemort couldn't have distant cousins and great aunts/uncles through the non- Slytherin-related relatives. I still don't think that Harry is related to him, nor Sirius, though. I'm not sure what purpose this would serve. Jennifer: Good point Barb- This line of this thread originated when someone made the comment that there was probably more to the Black family then we knew about. As pointed out- did Sirius intentionally keep Harry from looking to closely at the Black family tree? If so, why? If Sirius is related to Voldemort (through one grandparent- thanks I was confusing myself about relations :) - as you also said, what is the point? Why would the be relevant? Don't know the answer- but it makes for some interesting pondering. From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 1 19:37:48 2003 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 20:37:48 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Other LV relatives; Belletrix, Narcissa & Sirius (was: Wizarding Relations) References: Message-ID: <3F01E30C.4020100@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66517 psychic_serpent wrote: > > Another thing, from PoA, which makes it seem that JKR hadn't thought > all along of Narcissa being Sirius' cousin, is the way Draco Malfoy > talks about Sirius, especially when he's suggesting to Harry that HE > would go and hunt down Sirius himself if he were in Harry's shoes. > In light of OotP it just doesn't ring true. If Draco Malfoy were > related to Sirius Black, he'd probably be gloating to Harry about > how his cousin had fooled Harry's stupid parents into thinking he > was their friend, before handing them over to Voldemort, and that he > hoped Sirius, his cousin, got away scot-free. > > > --Barb Except that Sirius had been disowned by his family at the age of sixteen for not going along with all that dark magic and hatred of 'impure' wizard folk. So I'm sure that the Malfoys would consider Sirius no longer family either. digger From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Tue Jul 1 19:34:02 2003 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 20:34:02 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP: What Snape is really doing out there... References: <1c2.bf1a85a.2c3241d9@aol.com> Message-ID: <3F01E22A.6070303@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66518 First of all, I want to establish some understanding: I don't deny that Snape is a miserable (and may be even ever so evil) git, and I don't deny that Sirius is a pretty decent person if you happen to be his friend or godson. But it does not stop me from liking the first and disliking the other. Now to the details... pjuel13 at aol.com wrote: > Irene says: > >>Well, it's a question of chicken and egg, I'm afraid. :-) >>She would not, but then Sirius would not request it. > > And you know this how exactly? Could you point me to the paragraph I missed? How could I show you the canon for "what if" scenario? But does not it seem likely that Sirius wouldn't be so apprehensive if it was any other member of the Order? >>He said "Sit down, Potter". Does not get more neutral than that. > > Hmm, well Black seemed to take it as an order, as did Harry. But then of > course their perceptions must be imediately discounted. No, of course not. But Harry didn't offer any perception. Sirius interpreted the offer for him and basically told him to take it as another offence. > > >>Excuse for what? He talks to Harry in a perfectly civil and professional >>way. > > In what disfunctional workplace does a "sneer curling one's mouth" (US ed pg > 518_ indicate civility and professionalism? You'll be surprised. :-) But seriously, his sneer is directed towards Sirius here, not Harry. > > >>Sirius throws in his face the fact that it's his house, and from Snape's >>reaction there is something bigger behind it. > > Oh, so only Sirius' words are allowed to have things read into them? "Sit > Down Potter" is perfectly neutral. But "It's my house you know" is a personal > attack? It's hard to argue about perceptions, I agree. But this time Rowling helps me around: "Sit down, Potter" carries absolutely no qualifier she usually adds to Snape's speech: not sneering, not menacingly, nothing. Sirius, OTOH, was speaking to the ceiling and assuming a pose that means he was watching too many westerns. :-) > > Lets go through the -whole- chronology here shall we? You seem to have left a > few bits out. > Just after Sirius reminds Snape that he's in Sirius' house. We get the first > comments regarding Sirius' supposed uselessness and cowardice: > "I know how you like to feel...involved." See, I just happen to agree with Snape that Sirius's demand to be present was not exactly out of place (OK, it's his house and his godson), but still something akin to micro-management: I can't protect Harry at Hogwarts, I can't meet him on weekends, at least I'll control this little meeting. > "'I am sure that you must feel -ah- frustrated by the fact thay you can do > nothnig useful' Snape laid a delicate stress on the word, 'for the Order'" > "Snape's sneer became more pronounced" > Only after that did Sirius ask "Why can't Dumbledore teach Harry?" Aggressively, as JKR tells us. > then some shots at Harry: > "It is the headmaster's privilege to delegate less enjoyable tasks. I assure > you I did not beg for the job." That one is open to interpretation. Did he necessarily mean that it's such a dreadful task because of Harry? Or maybe teaching occlumency leaves you open for any hexes your student comes up with when he fails, and with mind intrusion when he succeeds? > "If anybody asks, you are taking Remedial Potions. Nobody who has seen you in > my classes could deny you need them" This one is also open to more favourable interpretation. "That's our cover story and it sounds very plausible" > and another shot at Sirius: > "unlike you I do not have unlimeted leisure time" > and finally a shot at James and Harry: After Sirius took it to personal territory. > "you'll know he's so arrogant that criticism simply bounces off of him." > And only then do we get: > "I don't care if Dumbledore thinks you've reformed. I know better." > So it's not quite "poor abused misunderstood Snape was only trying to be a > professional and they drove him to the point of using harsh words." I never said that. But I think that he wouldn't bring Harry's father into it if Sirius didn't look for confrontation. He was > having no problem using harsh words from the start of the encounter. > > >>This is what bugs me - how can Dumbledore blame Snape for Harry's >>failure? I wrote before that Snape was surprisingly civil and >>professional during the lessons. Cold, yes, but civil. > > > Surprisingly civil? What, should he not have been? Surprisingly as in "better than could be expected from his behaviour in Potions". I don't deny he is neither civil nor professional to Harry during Potions. > Is "Dim though you may be" (pg 590) professional or civil? A while ago The Times published bits of (public) school reports of various famous British figures. This remark would blend in really well. > Is parroting the MoM line about Harry seeking out danger in order to get > attention: "perhaps you actually enjoy having these visions and dreams, Potter. > Maybe they make you feel special - important?" civil and professional? (pg 591) I happen to think there is a bit of truth in this. Harry does not seek personal importance, true, and Snape has a problem to get his head around the fact; but Harry definitely thinks his visions are important, and he's upset with Dumbledore because he's not interested and wants them to stop. > >>Harry made absolutely no effort to succeed in these lessons. > > Absolutley no effort? > Is that your reading of the text. Harry stops trying to clear his mind before > sleeping prior to the pensive incident but I think that saying he was making > "absolutely no effort" is frank hyperbole. He seems to be trying very hard > during the sessions that are documented in the text and getting a review of his > most painful memories and increasingly severe chronic pain as his reward. > And when Harry says outright that Snape isn't telling him how after Snape > tells him to repell with his bain, Snape replies only with "Manners, Potter." But he told him basically: do whatever it was that you did to stop me from seeing you kissing, and this time don't waste energy on shouting. How do you teach someone to whistle? How did Moody teach him to resist Imperio? > I don't dislike Snape, I think he's an interesting, complex, and compelling > character and I enjoy learning more about him. His contradictions add a > tremendous amount of depth to the story and lend real weight to the JKR mantra of > chosing who and what you will be. But I don't understand at all the efforts by > some of his supporters to explain away everything he does or strip from him any > responsiblity for the effect of his actions. From what I've seen in some > postings Snape never does anything wrong - has never done anything wrong, he's > always the victim, always misunderstood, or always eyeball deep in some > mindbendingly machiavellian scheme of positively byzantine complexity that justifies > even the most blatantly cruel, partisan, or just plain nasty act that he's ever > done. I never said so. He can definitely be cruel and nasty, but he also tends to be blamed (by Harry and readers) even when he is not. Irene From shokoono at gmx.de Tue Jul 1 17:36:57 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:36:57 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Some thoughts on Severus's attire References: Message-ID: <00b701c33fff$ceac3af0$aef3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 66519 Yeah right, that might be an explanation (and at least the house elves alway would collect the dirty stuff, won't they?) Yours Finchen ----- Original Message ----- From: "phoebesophia" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 7:39 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Some thoughts on Severus's attire > This hadn't occured to me until I was catching up on the postings > tonight. In GoF -- the chapter in which Harry is caught in the > disappearing step and drops the egg -- Severus appears wearing a grey > nightshirt. Suddenly I am struck that the two times dear Severus's, > um . . . lingerie, is mentioned we discover it is grey. Perhaps he > simply won't wear light colors? > > phoebesophia (blushing at what I'm thinking) > > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jul 1 19:48:29 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 19:48:29 -0000 Subject: OOP: Disappointing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66520 Just my reactions to Phyllis's post...I didn't find the book disappointing at all. Challenging, yes, difficult in places, but not disappointing. Forgive me if some of these points have already been made, I'm having trouble keeping up as well. >>And we keep hearing that Dumbledore is the only one Voldemort was ever afraid of (other than Harry, of course!), so it doesn't seem as if any member of the Order other than Dumbledore could have kept a disguised Voldy out of the prophecy room.<< This is explained. Voldemort thinks that Harry knows about the prophecy. He knows that Harry detected his presence when he invaded the prophecy room. He doesn't go back because he's afraid he'll be detected by Harry and attacked by the aurors or Dumbledore. We're told repeatedly that Dumbledore is the only one Voldemort fears. OTOH, Voldemort himself expresses many other fears in GoF: fear of dying, fear that the aurors or the Ministry will search him out, fear that Pettigrew will desert him. We see the Ministry as a gaggle of ignorant, incompetent, power-hungry quill-pushers who can't tell their posteriors from a post owl, but to Voldemort they represent another power he has never understood, the power of rightful authority. Voldemort tried vainly for years to dislodge Dumbledore from Hogwarts. The Ministry did it with the stroke of a pen. Hmmm...love and authority -- maybe the power in the locked room is ... God? >>Sirius' Death: Several things bothered me here. The first was the way he died ? taunting his cousin. How arrogant is that? Couldn't he have died a more noble death ? in the midst of a proper duel, perhaps?<< Sirius passed up his chance to confront Voldemort when he chose not to be secret-keeper. He was always arrogant. He had many good qualities, but humility wasn't one of them. Repeatedly he claims to know what's best because he's master of the house and Harry's godfather, asserting his judgements based on his position rather than knowledge or experience. >>The second was that I didn't feel as if we had enough character development on Sirius to warrant Harry's feeling of grief. << You're kidding! Half the fandom's in tears, and yet all they saw of Sirius was Harry's PoV..why shouldn't he be as torn up as the readers are? Sirius was the first and only person to offer Harry a home away from the Durselys; of course Harry took to him. Love at first sight doesn't only happen between couples, you know. >>And even if I could accept that he and Harry were close, I can't come to grips with why Harry needs more misery in his life.<< Actually, Harry has most of his old miseries pretty well sorted. He's recovering from the graveyard...he dreams of it less and less as the book goes on. He knows now that his suffering wasn't pointless and that makes it easier to bear. He's found something he likes to do besides play Quidditch. The wizarding world has decided he's not crazy and Dumbledore has finally decided to let him in on what's going on. He's got at least a fighting chance against Voldemort (which is more than anybody else has.) As for Harry's other antagonists, he's got a handle on Snape, the Dursleys are intimidated, Draco's hostility has become a joke, and Lucius is in the pokey. >> The Prophecy: We had already pretty much figured this out ? the only twist for me was that it could have been Neville. I think I expected JKR to come up with something more clever than what I had already concluded. And Voldy already seems determined to personally kill Harry ? what would he really gain by hearing the rest of the prophecy?<< Dumbledore explained this. Voldemort thinks the rest of the prophecy contains information he needs to destroy Harry. After being defeated so many times, he wasn't about to go after Harry again until he'd found out. If he had the entire Prophecy Voldemort would also have learned that: Dumbledore can't kill him The good guys don't know how to destroy him If Voldemort doesn't destroy the "one," the "one" is fated to destroy him. The last might prompt Voldemort to arrange that if he goes down, the rest of the WW will go with him. All sound reasons for Dumbledore to want the prophecy hidden, IMO. >>Inconsistencies/Unanswered questions<< I am wondering if people who expected OOP to have all the answers read the first four books in one swell foop, not noticing how many loose ends were left from volume to volume. The big loose end from PS/SS was of course why Voldemort wanted to kill Harry. I believe that's been answered now. We still don't know why he offered to spare Lily, so we can't say the suspense is over. There were loose ends at the end of CoS, like what will be done with Gryffindor's sword and what happened to Lockhart. There were plenty of loose ends after PoA, some of which didn't get tied up until OOP, like what was the first Prophecy and how the heck does Fidelius work. There's also the limits of Harry's point of view. He's a brilliant tactician but not much of a strategic thinker. IMO, it would be out of character for him to analyze Voldemort's strategies or ask penetrating questions about them. Besides, knowing too much about what Voldemort is planning would kill the suspense. The downside is that the explanations seem to be afterthoughts when we finally get them...and we do, eventually, IMO. For example, I think we have enough canon now to sort out the "toothbrush" problem, but that's another post. >> Harry's Temper: This really took me by surprise. Harry starts the book by taunting Dudley and it just escalates from there. This is so unlike the Harry of the first four books ? the Harry that says nothing when Lucius Malfoy tells him in CoS that he'll meet the same sticky end as his parents. Granted, Harry's getting older, but I thought his temperament change was a bit too abrupt to be believable.<< Harry didn't get angry at Lucius because Lucius didn't hurt him...Harry knows full well a sneer from him is a compliment. Harry was plenty angry in GoF; at Ron, at Cedric, at Voldemort and at Snape. Harry was just as angry in POA as he was in OOP and really far more beastly to Hermione. *We* didn't see her suffer as much because Harry was too much of a git to notice. He also blew up his aunt, punched Sirius and threw Snape against a wall. We're more aware of the effects of his anger in OOP because the book is longer, and because Harry himself is aware that he's taking things out on people and hurting them. That's actually an positive development in his character, IMO. At least he's aware of his angry feelings now and using words instead of violence and rejection. He was wrong to try to crucio Bella, but how was that worse than blowing up his aunt or punching Sirius? >>Dumbledore-Harry Relationship: Dumbledore says he didn't tell Harry about the prophecy because he loved him too much. As with Sirius, I don't see how Harry and Dumbledore have had enough interaction in order for Dumbledore to have developed such a love. Dumbledore "watching" Harry's accomplishments isn't a basis for love, IMO. << -- See what I said about love at first sight, above. Also Dumbledore must have felt horribly guilty for having left Harry to grow up in such a loveless place. Naturally he would try to make up for it. From what he says, he never had a family of his own and his paternal emotions took him by surprise. >>No Tricks:<< Oh, I don't know about that. Look at the not-so-rock-solid predictions list over at HPfGU. Very few of us got anything right. Did you *know* Sirius was going to be the one to die? I didn't. There were hints all over the place, starting with PoA and the book that Harry sees at Flourish and Blott's. "What to do when you know the worst is coming" with a big black dog on the cover. Which is Black humor Here's three hints from OOP to start off the list. LOONs? 1)the Dementors made the stars go out (ch.1) 2) There were thirteen at dinner with the Weasleys at Grimmauld Place. Ginny leaves the table, but gets down on the floor. The first to "rise" is Sirius.(ch. 5) 3)Sirius says he's not sure he'll be accepting the Ministry's apology for denying Voldemort's return.(ch. 9) Moi,I think the trickery quotient is way up there. And that's without mentioning ESE Lupin. Pippin From jdq53562 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 19:50:12 2003 From: jdq53562 at aol.com (J) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 19:50:12 -0000 Subject: Ootp, Voldemort, Tom, and CoS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66521 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "seanmulligan2000" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amanitamuscaria1" > wrote: > > I was thinking about the prediction and Voldemort, and that he'd > > worked out how to leave his 'sixteen-year self' in the diary, and > > later saying to Harry that his(Tom Riddle's) goal was no longer > > killing Mudbloods, but to kill Harry? > > Is the youthful, murderous Tom following a prophecy of his own? > > How does he know he'll need to leave behind a shade of himself? > > How, then, does that shade change its' goals and set out to kill > > Harry? > > Does Lord V. have any sort of mind link to this offshoot of himself? > > Does Lord V. tell y.m. Tom to concentrate on H.P.? > > So many questions - I can't help thinking Book 6 will be just as > > long, if not longer - Yippee! > > Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria > > > Voldemort left his sixteen year old self in an enchanted diary so > that his sixteen year old self could open the Chamber of Secrets > again and kill all the mudbloods. Tom found out about Harry from > Ginny. > > > Seanmulligan2000 While we are on the subject of OotP and Cos, I have been mulling over one line in CoS (canon, not the film) recently where Harry finds the diary and right before he wrotes in it, he rereads the name "TM Riddle" and muses over why it sounds familiar to him--like a friend he had when was little. I am positive that the line is meant to alude to the Voldemort/Harry connection that we now are more familiar with after GoF and OotP. However, could that line be a allusion to MORE of a connection? Does Harry have not only some of Voldemort's powers, but also some of his *memories* and then also his knowledge??? That line in CoS, never jumped at me until about a year ago during a reread of it-- but when you read it, it is certainly poignant and frightenting with its implications. It would be just so like JKR to slip it in such an early book with just this one line..... Any thoughts?? Arya From gandharvika at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 20:03:47 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 20:03:47 +0000 Subject: (OoP FILK) I'm So Mad Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66522 Here we go again... S P O I L E R S P A C E I'm So Mad (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _I'm So Tired_ by the Beatles) Midi is here (under the White Album, if you didn't already know): http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/morrissey/612/b-midi.htm Ron (fuming): I'm so mad, Percy sent me a note I'm so mad, I tore up what he wrote Percy acts so arrogant, you should have heard him gloat Oh, oh, oh! I'm so mad at what I just have read I'm so mad, I think he should drop dead I can't believe my brother, do you know what Percy said? He said our parents are wrong And that I'll find out that it won't be long Until Dumbledore's regime is through And Harry's friendship I shouldn't pursue And there'll be changes from the Ministry, so I shouldn't be surprised I'm so mad, no use in hiding it You know, I'm so mad, he's why our family's split Here's what I think of Percy He's the world's biggest git Percy tried to encourage Me to go to Professor Umbridge If I was troubled by my friend Harry And that Umbridge was a delightful lady Dad reckons Fudge only promoted him so he could be his spy He's broken up our family 'cause of his stupid pride He's made our father so angry and made our mother cry -Gail B...who should really be outside on this warm, sunny day instead of being on this fool computer. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From tigerfan41 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 20:05:36 2003 From: tigerfan41 at yahoo.com (Darrell Harris) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 13:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 3163 In-Reply-To: <1057080876.8735.86164.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030701200536.24111.qmail@web10002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66523 But what was the situation during the last war? Bill and Charlie were probably at Hogwarts, and the twins about two years old. We have no evidence that Molly has ever worked outside the home, so I'm going to assume she was a stay-at-home mom, especially since she was coping with young twins (not easy). And Arthur? Again, nothing definite, but as twelve years have passed and he still isn't a very prominent official, I assume he was probably still a Please correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Ginny say in COS that she had been waiting for her letter since Bill recieved his. This would mean Bill started no more than 9 years ago and more likely 8 for her to be able to remember the event. This would put 6 below school age children in the home at the climax of the first war. Wouldn't leave much room to go chasing dark wizards. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From austinglaves at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 17:44:00 2003 From: austinglaves at yahoo.com (austinglaves) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:44:00 -0000 Subject: A start on the preOoP 150+ list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66524 > 29. It will not be clear why the villains had to wait till the end of > term to implement their dastardly plan. > Third in the running for most correct. There is much contention on > this issue in OoP. I'm not sure this is true. The villians were trying to implement their plan most of the school year, only problem was that Harry was getting woken up before he saw the end of the vision. From whammer11 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 19:20:46 2003 From: whammer11 at yahoo.com (Ignacio) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 19:20:46 -0000 Subject: OoP: Sirius + Neville Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66525 * * * * * * * * spoiler stuff * * * * * * * * I can't find any other postings on this, but isn't it a bit odd that on page 808 of OotP (US, hardback edition) Neville asks Harry if Sirius was a special friend? I thought the entire mission was to rescue Sirius!!! From bruney200 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 19:28:13 2003 From: bruney200 at yahoo.com (tasha) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 12:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] WEASLEY FAMILY WOES In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030701192813.2653.qmail@web40501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66526 I think Percy will be the one that dies once he returns to the Order and after book 6 he tries to get the death eaters to side with their side since Voldemort will meet his downfall later in book 6. I think he will be murdered by Wormtail and Lucius Malfoy. Thats my say. Tasha Susan Smith wrote: SPOILERS STILL IN EFFECT? DO NOT READ UNLESS YOU HAVE FINISHED OOP > > > > > > > > There have been alot of posts speculating on Percy Weasley's break from his family; and the possibility of an upcoming Weasley death. Several posts have speculated that the greatest loss to Harry would be either Ron or Ginny. I do not know what to make of it all, but I speculate that in typical JKR fashion, we are seeing a lot of foreshadowing in Oop. For example, chapter 9 (The woes of Mrs. Weasley) shows Molly imagining Ron, Bill, Mr. Weasley, the twins, Percy and Harry dead, while she is fighting the boggart in the desk. Take note, Ginny is NOT seen as dead. I think she will survive the series. Too, the description of Mr. Weasley appears to be very similar to the description of him in Harry's subsequent Snake vs Mr Weasley dream, and how he looked when found by ministry, so I think Mr. Weasley's terror is past and he will survive until the end. So, I guess that leaves Bill, Percy, the twins and Ron as potential dead Weasleys. An argument could be made that ROn is comic releief and will always survive, and/or that he has already been attacked by lifesize chess pieces, backfired curses, Lockhart, Sirius and the Whomping Willow (POA, Aragog, and brains (to name just a few). One could say he has had more than his share and will not succumb to more. He will always be there (Harry might not, but Ron will). So, now we have Bill, Percy, and the twins. Which death would have bigger impact on the Order? Is Percy indeed undercover for Dumbledore? What exactly is Bill doing for order? Will his involvement with Goblins be the cause of his demise when goblins join the Dark Forces? Only time (a year or two while JKR writes) will tell. Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HarryPotterRocksatHogwarts2/ To those who love Harry Potter need to join this group. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fire_fly107 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 19:28:28 2003 From: fire_fly107 at hotmail.com (fire_fly107) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 19:28:28 -0000 Subject: OOP: Dementors (was : Re: OOP: Petunia and Azkaban) In-Reply-To: <00ba01c33fff$d0eded90$aef3a986@caro> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66527 > > > > > Thet dementors were allready guarding Azkaban in the first war > > > > for Petunia knows they do and she heared James tell this Lilly so > > > > it could only be possibly while the first war. > > > > > > > > Yous Finchen > > > > Ah yes, right, I forgot about that. > > > > > But we don't actually know that it is James and Lily Petunia is > > > referring to when she says "that awful boy" and "her." She never > > > says their names, Harry only assumes she is speaking of his > > > parents. > > > > > > KathyK > > > > Could be that. > > Could also be that the Dementors were created during the first war. I > > can picture James being so excited by the news of their creation (it > > would have been quite a shock IMO, the creation of something so > > monstruous) that he would forget to be cautious and discuss it with > > Lily within earshot of a Muggle (Petunia). > > Oh, and maybe they weren't created, maybe they were just recruited by > > the MoM during the first war, with the promise of dozens of souls to > > suck on forever. But I seem to remember that someone said that the > > Dementors are never mentioned in Fantastic Beasts, neither as beasts, > > beings nor spirits, which would support the theory of them having > > been created. Also the way they are talked about in the books seems a > > bit stange to me : the Dementors are the guardians of Azkaban. But > > guarding Azkaban is their job, no more. Or is it ? Is it in fact > > their very reason to exist, the only thing they've been created to > > do ? By the way, does someone know if Azkaban existed before the > > first war ? I guess it did, but does it say so anywhere in canon ? > > > > Huh, I guess I'm getting a bit delirious :-) > > > > Doriane > > > > I too have been wondering where Dementors originatated. Could it be that Dementors are not really 'beasts' at all, but some kind of mutated wizard? Maybe they were created by VM during the first year, and after he ws defeated were recruited by the ministry of magic. From clarivocal at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 19:50:50 2003 From: clarivocal at yahoo.com (Ms Michal Barnea) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 12:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OoP Molly's Maiden Name In-Reply-To: <1056948163.4533.46748.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030701195050.53633.qmail@web13303.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66528 mongo62aa wrote: OK, I can't quote it, because I'm replying to the "daily digest" rather than individual emails or reading on the site. Stupid newbie mistake ;) But mongo wrote something about agreeing with another theory that Molly's maiden name could be Lestrange. But what if it's Malfoy? Maybe she's Lucius's sister! Is that too far-fetched? I mean, it would help explain some of the nastiness between Arthur and Lucius. Lucius thinks "argh, that damn Weasley, taking my sister and turning her into a muggle-loving freak!" Anyone with me here? -Michal __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From lastchance_000 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 19:35:11 2003 From: lastchance_000 at yahoo.com (Brian S.) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 12:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry/Ginny - Prophecy - Prediction- Some OOP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030701193511.44340.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66529 --- Vicky Gwosdz wrote: > OK, I am like a million posts behind, so if somebody > has already come > up wth this idea, excuse me. > > But I have been busy reading through all the posts > and I have been > combining several posts in to one horrible thought. > > (Spoiler space) > > I'll start with my assumptions: > > - Assuming that the prophecy indeed indicates that > Harry will be the > one who will vanquish Voldemort. > > - DD indicates that the power that Harry has which > Voldemort does not > have, is the ability to truly love someone (at least > that's what I > understand after 3 rereads). > > - When Voldemort first tried to kill off Harry, he > was stopped by > Lily's sacrifice, which nearly killed him. Not > completely, because > only "the chose one (Harry?) will have that power. > > - Assuming that Ginny is put in place to be Harry's > big love (which I > do believe) > > - Taking into consideration that JKR stated in an > interview: "what > makes you think Harry will live after book 7" (don't > remember the > exact wording. > > So what if the next story happens: > > In book 7, Voldemort tries to kill Ginny (who is by > then Harry's > girlfriend). Harry trhrows himself in the line of > fire in order to > save Ginny, thereby sacrificing his own life, in the > same way Lily > did for him. This time however, it is the chosen > one that makes the > enormous sacrifice out of love (the power Voldemort > does not > understand) and Voldermort is thereby truly > vanquished. End of > story. Voldemort is gone, Harry is dead and Ginny > remains! > > I'm not happy that I came up with this, because I > wouldn't like it, > so please shoot the theory! Brian responds: I'm delurking to reply to this very astute theory. I'm not sure that this will be exactly how it plays out(How could I be?). However, I was thinking the same thing. JKR has made self-sacrifice a strong theme throughout all the books. DD repeats it like a mantra--Lily's sacrifice was stronger than anything LV can come up with. It almost seems obvious that that will be the source of his downfall. I also think we saw a bit of foreshadowing (thematically, if nothing else) when LV could not possess Harry when he was willing to give up his own life. (I'll need to read it again to get his exact thoughts, but I think Harry had that attitude more from grief, than to protect Dumbledore or others. I'll look when I get home to check that out.) I'll see your 2 cents and raise you a nickel. Brian __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Jul 1 20:14:15 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 20:14:15 -0000 Subject: OoP: Sirius + Neville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66530 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ignacio" wrote: > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > spoiler stuff > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > > I can't find any other postings on this, but isn't it a bit odd that > on page 808 of OotP (US, hardback edition) Neville asks Harry if > Sirius was a special friend? I thought the entire mission was to > rescue Sirius!!! Neville only knew, that they wanted to rescue a Sirius, not that the Sirius was Sirius Black. Hickengruendler From jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com Tue Jul 1 20:15:51 2003 From: jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com (jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 15:15:51 -0500 Subject: OoP Molly's Maiden Name Message-ID: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30B036@msgmsp16.norwest.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66531 mongo62aa wrote: OK, I can't quote it, because I'm replying to the "daily digest" rather than individual emails or reading on the site. Stupid newbie mistake ;) But mongo wrote something about agreeing with another theory that Molly's maiden name could be Lestrange. But what if it's Malfoy? Maybe she's Lucius's sister! Is that too far-fetched? I mean, it would help explain some of the nastiness between Arthur and Lucius. Lucius thinks "argh, that damn Weasley, taking my sister and turning her into a muggle-loving freak!" Anyone with me here? -Michal Do we know what house Molly was in at Hogwarts? Unless it was Slytherin, I'm inclined to think that Molly is not a sister of Lucius- due to not only physical characteristics, but obvious differences in beliefs. From pinguthegreek at pinguthegreek.net Tue Jul 1 20:19:03 2003 From: pinguthegreek at pinguthegreek.net (Pinguthegreek) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 21:19:03 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP: Sirius + Neville References: Message-ID: <021d01c3400e$06fb5400$395fc487@personal> No: HPFGUIDX 66532 I can't find any other postings on this, but isn't it a bit odd that on page 808 of OotP (US, hardback edition) Neville asks Harry if Sirius was a special friend? I thought the entire mission was to rescue Sirius!!! Neville would not have been aware of who Sirius was to Harry, would he ? Because as far as the wizarding world knew, Sirius was a murderer on the run. Michelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com Tue Jul 1 20:18:55 2003 From: jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com (jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 13:18:55 -0700 Subject: ] Harry/Ginny - Prophecy - Prediction- Some OOP Message-ID: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30B037@msgmsp16.norwest.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66533 Brian responds: I'm not sure that this will be exactly how it plays out(How could I be?). However, I was thinking the same thing. JKR has made self-sacrifice a strong theme throughout all the books. DD repeats it like a mantra--Lily's sacrifice was stronger than anything LV can come up with. It almost seems obvious that that will be the source of his downfall. Jennifer (me) I think that this is an interesting- and plausible theory. To give it a happier ending- could Harry's love for Ginny, and willingness to sacrifice himself, perhaps save him while vanquishing Voldemort once and for all? Perhaps this is ridiculously farfetched..but I don't want Harry to DIE! :) From fire_fly107 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 20:28:43 2003 From: fire_fly107 at hotmail.com (fire_fly107) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 20:28:43 -0000 Subject: OOP: Disappointing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66534 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "joanne0012" wrote: Despite her fine grasp on mythology and human nature, her writing continues to be weak, relying on awkward structures and mechanisms. Her dialogs are usually spot-on, but she could use structures othe than "said' and an adverb, somebody get that woman a thesaurus, or something, with some verbs for her to use for speakers. I am SO tired of people's emotions being evidenced by blushing, flushing, their faces "burning", and a dozen other ways of relying on this vascular phenomenon to convey anger. And cold voices. Yes, the writing is simple and there's not a lot of variety in the descriptions, but the one thing many adults forget when the read Harry Potter (esp. more recent ones where the themes are more mature) that these are childrens books. They were originally meant to appeal to people around the age of 12. It's not JKR's writing that draws such a broad audience, it's her story-telling. From musicisme21 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 20:30:19 2003 From: musicisme21 at yahoo.com (musicisme21) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 20:30:19 -0000 Subject: OOP: What do you make of this name? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66535 I'm not sure if anyone has already brought this up or not (sorry, I'm quite behind in my posts, I'm sure everyone can relate), but in addition to all the other HP names that are also names of constellations and stars...Hermione is also the name of a constellation, in the top 20 list of constellations either closest or most prominent to Earth (sorry, can't remember which). --astronomy nerd Versha:) --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "xlysanderx" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "logic_alley" > wrote: > > > > > > Spoiler space: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rowan: > > > > What does anyone make of Bellatrix Lestrange's name? Bella I > > take to mean beautiful, and according to my dictionary, -trix is a > > suffix that denotes a female (eg. aviator, aviatrix), though she > > certainly has many tricks up her sleeve! I take Lestrange to mean > > "the strange, or the foreign". Anyone else? > > > > > > "rose_in_shadow" wrote: > > > Someone else on this list has mentioned that "Bellatrix" is also > > the name of a star and since she's a member of the Black family, > > perhaps it's a family thing? (i.e. Sirius - the dog star) >>>>> > > > > Here's a nice site about stars and constellations: > > http://www.astro.wisc.edu/~dolan/constellations/ > > > > Regulus is also a star. Andromeda is a galaxy of course. I don't > > see Narcissa, but her son Draco is also a constellation. > > > > I think you're right -- it's definitely a Black family tradition. > > > > And Sirius is the brightest star in our sky, after the sun. > > Bellatrix means warrioress. > > > > > > --- Logic Alley ------- From 75211.522 at compuserve.com Tue Jul 1 20:47:51 2003 From: 75211.522 at compuserve.com (andromeda7_4) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 20:47:51 -0000 Subject: OOP; spoiler, purebloods and squibs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66536 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jmgarciaiii" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "andromeda7_4" > <75211.522 at c...> wrote: > > > Hagrid tells Harry that evry wizard or witch who went wrong was in > > Slytherin, including You-Know-Who. > > But what about Wormtail? Just because a character says so, IME, > doesn't NECESSARILY make it so. I am trying to think back to an > EXPLICIT reference to TR as a Slyth, but blanking for now. > > -Joe in SoFla We don't know what house Wormtail was in, do we? Perhaps he was a Slytherin, after all. Andromeda From jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com Tue Jul 1 20:52:00 2003 From: jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com (jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 15:52:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP; spoiler, purebloods and squibs Message-ID: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30B03D@msgmsp16.norwest.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66537 > > Hagrid tells Harry that evry wizard or witch who went wrong was in > > Slytherin, including You-Know-Who. > > But what about Wormtail? Just because a character says so, IME, > doesn't NECESSARILY make it so. I am trying to think back to an > EXPLICIT reference to TR as a Slyth, but blanking for now. > > -Joe in SoFla Jennifer: When Hargrid told that to Harry I don't believe that it was known That Wormtail was actually a deatheater. Of course, at that time it was believed that Sirius was. So, was Sirius in Slytherin? (Don't beat me up- I don't have my books to check the exact time of the conversation etc.) From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 20:52:50 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 20:52:50 -0000 Subject: MM/SS In-Reply-To: <003e01c33fdd$974e28b0$6a056750@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66538 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says: Ah, yes, but remember the aging process is slower in the WW. Think of MM as a fiftyish Mrs. Robinson type and SS as an eager young teacher in need of mentoring. The only thing I just can't get past is the personal hygeine issue. --JDR From gishdaydream at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 20:56:17 2003 From: gishdaydream at hotmail.com (gishstar1) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 20:56:17 -0000 Subject: LV's end and OOP thoughts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66539 All right after some in depth thinking about this whole prophecy thing... I remember in GoF that Fred and George made these fake wands and Bagman made the comment that they were the best fake wands that he had ever seen. Ok, so I know that it's hard to lie to LV BUT Harry is practicing (we hope) occlumency... and if he's good at it, picture this: Harry and LV, dueling (of course). Harry disarms LV and since he drops his wand Harry throws out several of the fake wands. LV picks up the fake wand thinking it's his... because he can't comb Harry's mind to find out which is the real one. He tries to use AK on Harry... then with a loud squak the wand turns into a rubber chicken. Horror stricken, LV looks up at Harry with wide terrified eyes, and then Harry finishes him off. Either by AK or some other way, because I remember LV saying in GoF that he has many protections against death. *pant* *pant*... how's THAT for an ending? I believe someone or some other people in the group had mentioned that you can kill LV but not the spirit. (i.e. Death Eaters) So maybe this is destiny for the 6th book, (death of LV) and then the spirit is killed in the 7th book? I dunno... just ideas. Along the same lines of ideas... Since Dumbledore had captured all those Death Eaters in the veil room would they all be sent to Azkaban without a trial? I know Lucius was in that bunch. So would he get a trial based on the fact that he is a prominent figure in the WW? Bellatrix went with LV, so she's not going to the prison. Not yet anyways. But I don't even think that they could send anyone there because it sounds like the dementors are back on the dark side again. who knows? who knows? who knows...? Thoughts? Ideas? sorry if this was talked about before, I avoided the list completely until I had finished the book. Then I had some catch up reading to do on the list, but I didn't read back much... ok enough about that. But I like my ending of LV. Ari From riberam at glue.umd.edu Tue Jul 1 21:13:46 2003 From: riberam at glue.umd.edu (Maria Ribera) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 17:13:46 -0400 Subject: OOP: It is Snape's fault!!!! In-Reply-To: <1056490396.47363.25568.m13@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66540 There are over a hundred digest emails on my inbox, and i am not going to rush through them... that way i would miss the discussions and then repeat them over and over. However, there is something i need to get out of my chest and so far i haven't seen anyone discuss yet, so if the message title appeals to you please scroll down to the end of the spoiler space. * * * * * * * * * * * * * Enough. OK, so far i have been reading the different sides defending both Harry and Snape. I agree with those that say that Harry was not very polite nor respectful looking into Snape's memories, and i also agree with those who say that Snape should be the adult of the two and behave accordingly, resuming the Occlumancy lessons with Harry. But my point is: Snape should never have removed his memories in front of Harry! Please! If you have something you want to hide, why hide it in front of other people and let them see where you are hiding it! Sorry for the abuse of the exclamation marks, but i find it a bit silly for an adult not to know that a teenager's curiosity will be stronger than his or her good conscience. It would have been more logical if Snape had put his memories into the pensieve before 6 o'clock, before Harry arrives in his office, then put the pensieve away and then welcome Harry for his class, and the same at the end, wait for Harry to leave before getting those memories back. So yes, Harry did something very wrong, but i think in a way Snape provoked him. That's my point. Any thoughts? Maria - Maryblue From irreality at mit.edu Tue Jul 1 21:02:12 2003 From: irreality at mit.edu (komagata_mai) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 21:02:12 -0000 Subject: OOP Bellatrix, Narcissa & Sirius (was: Wizarding Relations) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66541 > For that matter, I felt rather like Narcissa Malfoy being born > Narcissa Black was just conceived of for this book, purely for the > purpose of Kreacher considering her to be family, so he could go off > and use the excuse that he was still with a family member to whom he > was supposed to be loyal. After all, Harry gives fairly good > descriptions of both Bellatrix Lestrange (nee Black) and of Narcissa > Malfoy (nee Black) in GoF, and they don't seem like they could > genetically be full sisters. Belletrix is described as having very > dark coloring, whereas Narcissa has very fair hair (and, I think, > light eyes, but I'd have to check GoF again--if she doesn't have > light eyes, it would be against the odds for her son to have > inherited his father's light eye color). I think putting all of > these people into the same family was probably a last-minute affair, > and something I found to be a little irksome (although not as much > as using the tapestry to communicate the info about the family tree). I know a few siblings where one child has really dark hair and the other has light blonde hair. I don't think this should be an argument. I'm not sure how the eyes are described, but eye color is determined by several genes and is not that unlikely that Draco ended up with gray eyes (which could be light blue, light green, light hazel, or some weird combination of colors). Also, who knows how magic can affect genetics? Whether this was a last minute decision or not, I couldn't tell you that, but there have been hints since book one (by ron I believe), that wizards would have died out if they hadn't started marrying muggles. That would suggest that the most adamant Pureblood families would be very closely related, as if they were nobility. > > Another thing, from PoA, which makes it seem that JKR hadn't thought > all along of Narcissa being Sirius' cousin, is the way Draco Malfoy > talks about Sirius, especially when he's suggesting to Harry that HE > would go and hunt down Sirius himself if he were in Harry's shoes. > In light of OotP it just doesn't ring true. If Draco Malfoy were > related to Sirius Black, he'd probably be gloating to Harry about > how his cousin had fooled Harry's stupid parents into thinking he > was their friend, before handing them over to Voldemort, and that he > hoped Sirius, his cousin, got away scot-free. > this has been replied to, but I agree. Sirius was disowned, so he might be one of those things that is just not talked about. Plus, Draco is bratty. He might not be interested in geneaology. Or its something you take for granted, like most pureblooded wizards would be related to you in some way or another. Sirius is more of a second uncle, I mean, do you mention who your second uncle is to people? Especially if he is a convicted criminal and runaway and burnt off the family tapestry? > It's all very well and good to introduce new ideas, and even for her > to have had brainstorms that didn't occur until the writing of a > subsequent book (I'm sure there's plenty of things she might have > first thought of that will never make it into the books, and I'm > glad she went with Rita Skeeter instead of the Weasley cousin in > GoF), but with this one it just doesn't seem that she thought about > whether it was plausible in light of what went before. Another > purpose of it could be, in general, to make it seem that pureblooded > wizards are very inbred, but I don't think that we needed the > tapestry to come to that conclusion. ;) Well, yes, pureblood families are very inbred, and the tapestry just emphasizes to what degree. I've felt that this pureblood issue in the books not only relates to racial hatred in the real world, but also, in every day life how class structures (nobility vs commmoners) worked, and discriminated people by their relatives and connections, rather than by appearance, nationality, or religion. I think it is quite plausible she had thought this out before. It seems that it is part of the themes of the book, and if tonks can change her hair color and her nose at will, I say that a blonde member of the Black family is not unreasonable. --mai From bridgewater.babe at virgin.net Tue Jul 1 21:16:17 2003 From: bridgewater.babe at virgin.net (Victoria Dick) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 22:16:17 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: It is Snape's fault!!!! References: Message-ID: <3F01FA21.80600@virgin.net> No: HPFGUIDX 66542 Spoiler space * * * * * * Maria Ribera wrote: > > But my point is: Snape should never have removed his memories in front > of Harry! Please! If you have something you want to hide, why hide it > in front of other people and let them see where you are hiding it! > Sorry for the abuse of the exclamation marks, but i find it a bit silly > for an adult not to know that a teenager's curiosity will be stronger > than his or her good conscience. It would have been more logical if > Snape had put his memories into the pensieve before 6 o'clock, before > Harry arrives in his office, then put the pensieve away and then > welcome Harry for his class, and the same at the end, wait for Harry to > leave before getting those memories back. So yes, Harry did something > very wrong, but i think in a way Snape provoked him. > > That's my point. Any thoughts? > I thought that by doing this Snape was really wanting Harry to look, but giving himself the option of being cross with him for looking too. -- Victoria Joshua (7/4/97), Kitty (22/7/99) & Hamish (22/01/02) From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Tue Jul 1 21:21:43 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 14:21:43 -0700 Subject: OoP Continue to snape half-vampire theory by a newbie :)(long!) Message-ID: <410-22003721212143864@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 66543 icewalker08 wrote: > There is a snape being vampire or half-vampire theory allaround which > now,after > > reading book 5,i am 100% agree with it. "K" added: He can see well enough in the dark to shoot down flies but he has to have his face almost plastered on the page to take the test. Once outside we see where the sunlight was dazzling on the smooth surface of the lake. Snape has settled himself on the grass in the 'dense shadows' of a clump of bushes. He is always in the shadows. When Harry first goes to Snape for lessons it states that Snape 'had moved into the light'. It's the one theory I'm 100% positive of. If he isn't a vampire he sure is close. Now me (Wendy): I'm a big fan of the Snape is a half-vampire theory. Well, as far as I'm concerned at this point it's not a theory. It's fact, unless JKR specifically writes in a future book that Snape is definitely *not* a vampire . So, if no mention of this is ever made by the end of Book 7, I'll happily think of him as a vampire forever. :-) Anyhow, the two things I noticed on my initial reading of OoP which could be used as evidence: First, there's the fact that he never eats at Grimmauld Place. Actually, I find it very very likely that he doesn't eat there because he doesn't like the company, but it would tie in with the vampire thing. This has been mentioned several times on the list. The most interesting thing that I noticed, however, (and something I haven't yet seen mentioned on the list) is that the Blood Replenishing Potion is now canon. We see it being used to treat Arthur when he is at St. Mungo's. This is something I used to see in fanfics, back when I was still reading them. A potion like this would offer vampires the opportunity to dine on humans (volunteers, one would hope), after which the humans could have a bit of Blood Replenishing Potion and be none the worse for wear. While this wouldn't work with certain vampire mythology, there is nothing in JKR's canon which contradicts this as a possibility. Especially since we know almost nothing about her version of vampire lore; they didn't even make it into FBAWTFT, which I think is pretty dodgy, actually. Makes me think that she doesn't want us to have any clues about vampires in her world, which suggests that she intends to have a vampire figure prominently in a future plot line. Maybe even our beloved Potion's Master! In any case, I think the Blood Replenishing Potion makes it possible that Snape, assuming he could find himself a willing volunteer, could be having healthy meals on a regular basis without being predatory about it. :-) Wendy (Who tried making an smiley/emoticon with fangs, but could only figure out how to get one fang. Which looked pretty stupid, so I went with the boring old regular smiley ) From patgruenke at cloudnet.com Tue Jul 1 21:21:21 2003 From: patgruenke at cloudnet.com (Pat and Jim Gruenke) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 16:21:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP Molly's Maiden Name Message-ID: <3F01FB51.8090504@cloudnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66544 jennifer r junker wrote: > But mongo wrote something about agreeing with another > theory that Molly's maiden name could be Lestrange. > But what if it's Malfoy? Pat replies: You're both wrong. Molly's maiden name is Evans. It's in the FAQ, I believe. Not found in the books, but JKR stated it in an interview. Can I be a L.O.O.N., now??? I am from Minnesota, after all.... ;-) Pat From srsiriusblack at aol.com Tue Jul 1 21:25:08 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:25:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Disappointing Message-ID: <300D3E80.6792066A.4367D819@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66545 In a message dated 7/1/2003 3:28:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, fire_fly107 at hotmail.com writes: > Yes, the writing is simple and there's not a lot of variety in the > descriptions, but the one thing many adults forget when the read > Harry Potter (esp. more recent ones where the themes are more mature) > that these are childrens books. They were originally meant to appeal > to people around the age of 12. It's not JKR's writing that > draws > such a broad audience, it's her story-telling. I agree. There were times when I became annoyed with 'said' being used after every bit of dialogue, but it is true that these books are not adult books. We, as adults have just happened to fall in love with her stories. If you read them as I do, you replace 'said' with different words, or rearrange her writing a bit. 'Said' is over used but I doubt that children think this. It makes it easier for them to read. -Snuffles from behind the veil From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Tue Jul 1 21:29:58 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 21:29:58 -0000 Subject: OOP Molly's Maiden Name In-Reply-To: <3F01FB51.8090504@cloudnet.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66546 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Pat and Jim Gruenke wrote: > jennifer r junker wrote: > > > > But mongo wrote something about agreeing with another > > theory that Molly's maiden name could be Lestrange. > > But what if it's Malfoy? > > Pat replies: > > You're both wrong. Molly's maiden name is Evans. It's in the FAQ, I > believe. Not found in the books, but JKR stated it in an interview. > > Can I be a L.O.O.N., now??? I am from Minnesota, after all.... ;-) Pat Me (Bill): Um, sorry. That would be Lily. Lily Evans. Molly's maiden name is not given. Bill From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Jul 1 21:31:00 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 21:31:00 -0000 Subject: OOP Molly's Maiden Name In-Reply-To: <3F01FB51.8090504@cloudnet.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66547 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Pat and Jim Gruenke wrote: > jennifer r junker wrote: > > > > But mongo wrote something about agreeing with another > > theory that Molly's maiden name could be Lestrange. > > But what if it's Malfoy? > > Pat replies: > > You're both wrong. Molly's maiden name is Evans. It's in the FAQ, I > believe. Not found in the books, but JKR stated it in an interview. > No, Lily's and Petunia's maiden name is Evans. Not Molly's. Hickengruendler From srsiriusblack at aol.com Tue Jul 1 21:32:53 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:32:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: It is Snape's fault!!!! Message-ID: <2634847E.38CB7AC7.4367D819@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66548 In a message dated 7/1/2003 4:13:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, riberam at glue.umd.edu writes: > Harry arrives in his office, then put the pensieve away and then > welcome Harry for his class, and the same at the end, wait for Harry to > leave before getting those memories back. So yes, Harry did > something > very wrong, but i think in a way Snape provoked him. > > That's my point. Any thoughts? Firstly, let me state again, that I still think Snape is pretty sexy and I love the way his character is developing. Do we trust him or not? Do we love him or loathe him? Is he evil or good? These make for a very intriguing and sexy character for adults. ( Esp anyone with a 'bad boy' complex) However, I think there was a motive to what Snape did. He KNEW Harry would look into the Penseive. He knew Harry would see a moment of his father acting as the ass. He also knew that this might just taint Harry's perception of James as a Saint-like figure. Also, this moment perpetuates Snape's ideas of Harry being 'above the rules' and untrustworthly. The main point, though I think was to give Harry a reality check. All he has ever heard of his father have been stellar things. Everyone loved James. James was such a wonderful person. They see James in Harry. Etc. No one is that Saintly. Harry needed to see that sometimes people aren't always how they are perceived and that Snape has every reason in the world to dislike James. ( I think anyone who was ever tormented in school woul agree that these memories stay with you and unless you let go of them, you never get past them.... Snape obviously hasn't) Perhaps Harry will catch on that for Snape, seeing Harry everyday is like seeing James as a student. Is it fair to Harry? No. But, it *does* explain a great deal about Snape's attitude towards Harry. -Snuffles, still awaiting ressurection from behind the veil From sydenmill at msn.com Tue Jul 1 21:34:38 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 21:34:38 -0000 Subject: OOP Harry & Unforgivables Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66549 Space "So," said Harry, dredging up the words from what felt like a deep well of despair inside him, "so does that mean that. . .that one of us has got to kill the other one. . .in the end?" (OOP, CH. 37, pg. 844) "Yes," said Dumbledore. Not anger. Not psychology. Destiny. Bohcoo From Joanne0012 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 21:34:51 2003 From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 21:34:51 -0000 Subject: OOP Bellatrix, Narcissa & Sirius (was: Wizarding Relations) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66550 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "komagata_mai" wrote: > Harry gives fairly good > > descriptions of both Bellatrix Lestrange (nee Black) and of > Narcissa > > Malfoy (nee Black) in GoF, and they don't seem like they could > > genetically be full sisters. Belletrix is described as having > very > > dark coloring, whereas Narcissa has very fair hair (and, I think, > > light eyes, but I'd have to check GoF again--if she doesn't have > > light eyes, it would be against the odds for her son to have > > inherited his father's light eye color). . . > > I know a few siblings where one child has really dark hair and the > other has light blonde hair. I don't think this should be an > argument. I'm not sure how the eyes are described, but eye color is > determined by several genes and is not that unlikely that Draco > ended up with gray eyes (which could be light blue, light green, > light hazel, or some weird combination of colors). . . . I think it is quite plausible she had thought this out before. It seems that it is part of the themes of the book, and if tonks can > change her hair color and her nose at will, I say that a blonde > member of the Black family is not unreasonable. > > --mai Speaking as the brown-eyed mom of two blue-eyed kids, I'm certain that genetic mix-and-match can produce just about anything; recessive genes like light eyes can show up unexpectedly. And recessive genes are more likely to show up in an inbred group, that's exactly why inbreeding is a bad thing! Furthermore, I have one blonde kid, one flaming redhead (Weasley caliber) and one kid with very dark hair and brown eyes. And so did my grandmother! So I'm ready to believe any combination of traits in Blacks, Potters, Evanses, Weasleys, whomever. JKR has admitted that she found a gaping plot hole in Book 4 (IIRC) but since she claims to have plotted out all 7 books in advance, it's hardly likely that major changes in family trees were added as an afterthought. When I first read the tapestry section, I imagined that Rowling had just writen-up one of the charts she says she's made about the wizarding world. From pinguthegreek at pinguthegreek.net Tue Jul 1 21:37:03 2003 From: pinguthegreek at pinguthegreek.net (Pinguthegreek) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 22:37:03 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP Molly's Maiden Name References: Message-ID: <023201c34018$ecc6f340$395fc487@personal> No: HPFGUIDX 66551 Um, sorry. That would be Lily. Lily Evans. Molly's maiden name is not given. I think I would remember too, if we knew Moly's maiden name. I think you're right, it is Lily who is Evans. May I make a further note for future reference ? In England, we don't use a woman's maiden name as a middle name. We would not say Lily Evans Potter . We might say Lily Potter ( nee Evans ). I know that other cultures do it, but in England ( where we assume Lily and all the majority of other female characters originate ) we do not. Michelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MMILLER at HNB-LAW.COM Tue Jul 1 21:36:21 2003 From: MMILLER at HNB-LAW.COM (MMILLER at HNB-LAW.COM) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 17:36:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP Bellatrix, Narcissa & Sirius (was: Wi zarding Relations) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66552 I also have to weigh in on the eye color. it is very possible, and not improbable, for two siblings to be that different, even if both parents are fair haired and light eyed. I have hazel eyes and dark brown hair; both my sisters are blue eyed blonds. my mother is a blue eyed brunette, my father is a blue eyed blond, and both sets of grandparents are fair haired and blue eyed. I have since learned that is was NOT the mailman ;=) , but more than likely a recessive gene from my maternal great grandmother. so it is hardly odd that Bellatrix and Narcissa's coloring should be so different, and not necessarily a last minute thing from JKR to tie everything together. Mary Jo -----Original Message----- From: komagata_mai [mailto:irreality at mit.edu] Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 5:02 PM To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP Bellatrix, Narcissa & Sirius (was: Wizarding Relations) > For that matter, I felt rather like Narcissa Malfoy being born > Narcissa Black was just conceived of for this book, purely for the > purpose of Kreacher considering her to be family, so he could go off > and use the excuse that he was still with a family member to whom he > was supposed to be loyal. After all, Harry gives fairly good > descriptions of both Bellatrix Lestrange (nee Black) and of Narcissa > Malfoy (nee Black) in GoF, and they don't seem like they could > genetically be full sisters. Belletrix is described as having very > dark coloring, whereas Narcissa has very fair hair (and, I think, > light eyes, but I'd have to check GoF again--if she doesn't have > light eyes, it would be against the odds for her son to have > inherited his father's light eye color). I think putting all of > these people into the same family was probably a last-minute affair, > and something I found to be a little irksome (although not as much > as using the tapestry to communicate the info about the family tree). I know a few siblings where one child has really dark hair and the other has light blonde hair. I don't think this should be an argument. I'm not sure how the eyes are described, but eye color is determined by several genes and is not that unlikely that Draco ended up with gray eyes (which could be light blue, light green, light hazel, or some weird combination of colors). Also, who knows how magic can affect genetics? Whether this was a last minute decision or not, I couldn't tell you that, but there have been hints since book one (by ron I believe), that wizards would have died out if they hadn't started marrying muggles. That would suggest that the most adamant Pureblood families would be very closely related, as if they were nobility. > > Another thing, from PoA, which makes it seem that JKR hadn't thought > all along of Narcissa being Sirius' cousin, is the way Draco Malfoy > talks about Sirius, especially when he's suggesting to Harry that HE > would go and hunt down Sirius himself if he were in Harry's shoes. > In light of OotP it just doesn't ring true. If Draco Malfoy were > related to Sirius Black, he'd probably be gloating to Harry about > how his cousin had fooled Harry's stupid parents into thinking he > was their friend, before handing them over to Voldemort, and that he > hoped Sirius, his cousin, got away scot-free. > this has been replied to, but I agree. Sirius was disowned, so he might be one of those things that is just not talked about. Plus, Draco is bratty. He might not be interested in geneaology. Or its something you take for granted, like most pureblooded wizards would be related to you in some way or another. Sirius is more of a second uncle, I mean, do you mention who your second uncle is to people? Especially if he is a convicted criminal and runaway and burnt off the family tapestry? > It's all very well and good to introduce new ideas, and even for her > to have had brainstorms that didn't occur until the writing of a > subsequent book (I'm sure there's plenty of things she might have > first thought of that will never make it into the books, and I'm > glad she went with Rita Skeeter instead of the Weasley cousin in > GoF), but with this one it just doesn't seem that she thought about > whether it was plausible in light of what went before. Another > purpose of it could be, in general, to make it seem that pureblooded > wizards are very inbred, but I don't think that we needed the > tapestry to come to that conclusion. ;) Well, yes, pureblood families are very inbred, and the tapestry just emphasizes to what degree. I've felt that this pureblood issue in the books not only relates to racial hatred in the real world, but also, in every day life how class structures (nobility vs commmoners) worked, and discriminated people by their relatives and connections, rather than by appearance, nationality, or religion. I think it is quite plausible she had thought this out before. It seems that it is part of the themes of the book, and if tonks can change her hair color and her nose at will, I say that a blonde member of the Black family is not unreasonable. --mai Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ayeka at bellsouth.net Tue Jul 1 21:24:10 2003 From: ayeka at bellsouth.net (Genevieve) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 21:24:10 -0000 Subject: Other LV relatives; Belletrix, Narcissa & Sirius (was: Wizarding Relations) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66553 That isn't quite true. Let's say that it is on his mother's father's side that he is related to Slytherin (since his mum was said to have given him the middle name "Marvolo" after her father). There's still his mother's mother's family. He could have a whole slew of relatives through that relationship, and while they wouldn't also be related to Slytherin, like him, they WOULD be related to Tom Riddle/Voldemort. So there's no reason to believe that Voldemort couldn't have distant cousins and great aunts/uncles through the non- Slytherin-related relatives. I still don't think that Harry is related to him, nor Sirius, though. I'm not sure what purpose this would serve. I suppose it "could" be possible in a very minute way, seeing as all pure blood families are intermixed because in order to stay pure blood you must marry pure blood. That being said, JKR has already shot down any notion of Voldemort being related to Harry, as how "Star Wars" that would be. As for Sirius, we got a really good look into his family tree in this book, I don't think he's related to Voldemort, because I think that would shine brightly perhaps on the tree.. although because Voldemort is half-blood that may not be true because Black is a pure blood family.. For that matter, I felt rather like Narcissa Malfoy being born Narcissa Black was just conceived of for this book, purely for the purpose of Kreacher considering her to be family, so he could go off and use the excuse that he was still with a family member to whom he was supposed to be loyal. After all, Harry gives fairly good descriptions of both Bellatrix Lestrange (nee Black) and of Narcissa Malfoy (nee Black) in GoF, and they don't seem like they could genetically be full sisters. Belletrix is described as having very dark coloring, whereas Narcissa has very fair hair (and, I think, light eyes, but I'd have to check GoF again--if she doesn't have light eyes, it would be against the odds for her son to have inherited his father's light eye color). I think putting all of these people into the same family was probably a last-minute affair, and something I found to be a little irksome (although not as much as using the tapestry to communicate the info about the family tree). Again, I have to disagree on this. Sirius is the cousin of Bellatrix and Narcissa, not siblings. So it is quite easy to explain the differences between them and Sirius feature wise. Even siblings can look fairly different. I know in my family I don't look much like my siblings, 2 of my sisters have blonde hair and blue eyes, while I have brown hair and green eyes. If you go out farther and look at compairing cousins, I have cousins with red, blonde, brown, and black hair, green, brown, hazel and blue eyes. So saying that it is impossible for them to be cousins is rather silly. Its like saying, its impossible for people with blonde hair and blue eyes to have a child with green eyes and brown hair. Then if you want to talk skin tone, while my skin is olive toned, both my blonde haired sisters have fair skin. So I say, JKR knew ahead of time the connection between Bellatrix, Narcissa and Sirius. Also, via the family tree, Sirius and Arthur Weasley are 2 cousins once removed (or something like that) and Arthur has red hair and fair skin, opposed to Sirius's dark hair and I would think olive skin tone. Another thing, from PoA, which makes it seem that JKR hadn't thought all along of Narcissa being Sirius' cousin, is the way Draco Malfoy talks about Sirius, especially when he's suggesting to Harry that HE would go and hunt down Sirius himself if he were in Harry's shoes. In light of OotP it just doesn't ring true. If Draco Malfoy were related to Sirius Black, he'd probably be gloating to Harry about how his cousin had fooled Harry's stupid parents into thinking he was their friend, before handing them over to Voldemort, and that he hoped Sirius, his cousin, got away scot-free. I think someone has already said it, but Sirius was disowned when he was 16 because he didn't follow along with the pure-blood is better mentality. That being said, Draco probably has no idea that he is related to Sirius in any way. Besides Draco only said that stuff to Harry because he's constantly pushing to get Harry in trouble, hurt or killed. Just IMO. Also, JKR has a road map she did before she started writing of the basic path for the story to go, I think she very much thought out the details, more so than she is give credit. Gen From galadriel1 at mail.charter.net Tue Jul 1 21:25:53 2003 From: galadriel1 at mail.charter.net (abhamghp) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 21:25:53 -0000 Subject: OOP: Houses of MWPP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66554 Has there been any definite mention in canon of what houses James, Sirius, Lupin, and Wormtail were in? Don't have books with me, but I'm pretty sure that the only mention was in OOP, when Harry saw James fooling around with the snitch and assumed he was a Gryffindor. I'm leaning toward all four of them being in Slytherin. More of a hunch than anything, but they have all demonstrated some slytherin-esque behaviors, except Lupin perhaps. wouldn't it have been logical for the sorting hat to want to put Harry in Slytherin, just like dad? Just a thought. April From simont at pop.co.za Tue Jul 1 21:48:00 2003 From: simont at pop.co.za (Simon Taplin) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 23:48:00 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Teachers' Housing (very very slight OoP reference) In-Reply-To: <005c01c34001$74925d40$837c0550@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66555 Well, we know that the staff do live on the premises. We also know that nobody is supposed to be able to apperate on school grounds. Now when Sirus visitef Ron, Professor Macgonagal was there within a few minutes, this would lead me to believe that the staff do live apart from the students but that their living quarters are either in the same tower/or very close to the student rooms. I would also assume that the staff quarters would be protected by the usual password protected gargolyes. Simon Cell: 072 613 0635 Quote for the day: Systems Administration is the kind of job that nobody notices if you're doing it well. People only notice when their systems are not working. I don't think that most of the staff are _required_ live in apart from those who might have duties that would need them to be there outside teaching hours (Dumbledore, the four Heads of Houses, Hagrid, Pomfrey, Filch...) The depiction of the Ministry in OoP with the staff arriving for work was interesting and I would see similar methods being used by those Hogwarts staff who don't live in (subject of course to the fact that they can't Apparate in - perhaps those who prefer to Apparate arrive in Zabini's caff in Hogsmeade and pick up a coffee and a bacon butty before strolling up to work!) JKR has hinted that more could be said about whether or not the professors are or were married but to date nothing has aired in the books. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- This email is hopefully virus free as it has been Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.493 / Virus Database: 292 - Release Date: 2003/06/25 From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Jul 1 21:51:00 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 21:51:00 -0000 Subject: ADMIN OOP: READ THIS FIRST - the most frequently asked questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66556 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "griffinmore" wrote: > > > 2) The prophesy says that either HArry must kill Voldermort or > Voldermort must kill Harry. In GOF, we saw that their wands will not > work properly against each other. So how will they be able to kill > each other? Or is it just that their wands won't work properly in a > duel? They won't work against each other in a duel. If Harry is able to took Voldemort by surprise, before Voldemort can say another spell, I think it should work. Or maybe The Prophecy Boy turns out to be Neville in the end. > > 3) Doesn't it seem kind of wierd that a great deal of the Death > Eaters were found on the Black Family Tree. They all have that long > black hair. How do we know that they aren't related to Slytherin? We > don't know what Voldy's mother's name was. And Voldermort seems to > have recruited alot of members from that family. Maybe it was family > loyalty. I mean, he has a special affinity For Ballatrix. Maybe she's > his favorite cousin? I would say it is unlikely. You never know, but I personally think Bellatrix isn't his favorite cousin, but his favorite Death Eater. > > > 5) Harry is the last Potter, maybe. So shouldn't he have a house, > like Grimmauld Place, out there if the Potter's were a pure-blood > family? It appears that If Dumbledore has so many of Harry's father's > possessions, he knew and was trusted by that family. People have > speculated but doesn't it seem now plausible that Dumbledore is > related to Harry, but he doesn't want others to know? Yes, I think this house is Godrics Hollow. I suppose Dumbledore hasn't told Harry, because he want him to live with the Dursleys. Or maybe Godrics Hollow is destroyed. > > 6) Harry's protection is from his mother, through her blood. Isn't it > possible that Petunia is not Harry's ONLY living relative but simply > his mother's only sibling. She's the only person with blood > genetically similar to his mother. Might be. There is at leats the problem, that Petunia isn't Harrys only living blood relative. There is at least still Dudley. Of course Dudley and Petunia live in the same house, so I suppose it doesn't make any difference. Hickengruendler From simont at pop.co.za Tue Jul 1 21:47:56 2003 From: simont at pop.co.za (Simon Taplin) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 23:47:56 +0200 Subject: Scary Thought Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66557 Here's a scacry though. From the different books, we have found out that Apparating is not east. Percy failed before getting his license but the twins managed on their first time. And that many wizards/witches won't apparate becos its difficult/dangerous. Now can anybody see Neville doig well with apparating or will he be visiting the local wizard hospital for unspecified injuries :> Simon Cell: 072 613 0635 Quote for the day: Systems Administration is the kind of job that nobody notices if you're doing it well. People only notice when their systems are not working. --- This email is hopefully virus free as it has been Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.493 / Virus Database: 292 - Release Date: 2003/06/25 From simont at pop.co.za Tue Jul 1 21:47:58 2003 From: simont at pop.co.za (Simon Taplin) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 23:47:58 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: It is Snape's fault!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66558 -----Original Message----- From: Maria Ribera [mailto:riberam at glue.umd.edu] Sent: 01 July 2003 11:14 To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: It is Snape's fault!!!! There are over a hundred digest emails on my inbox, and i am not going to rush through them... that way i would miss the discussions and then repeat them over and over. However, there is something i need to get out of my chest and so far i haven't seen anyone discuss yet, so if the message title appeals to you please scroll down to the end of the spoiler space. * * * * * * * * * * * * * But my point is: Snape should never have removed his memories in front of Harry! Please! If you have something you want to hide, why hide it in front of other people and let them see where you are hiding it! Sorry for the abuse of the exclamation marks, but i find it a bit silly for an adult not to know that a teenager's curiosity will be stronger than his or her good conscience. It would have been more logical if Snape had put his memories into the pensieve before 6 o'clock, before Harry arrives in his office, then put the pensieve away and then welcome Harry for his class, and the same at the end, wait for Harry to leave before getting those memories back. So yes, Harry did something very wrong, but i think in a way Snape provoked him. Or at least not leave his memories in full view, unprotected. At least some kind of protection spell just in case something happened, he can't have expected nothing to happen during the classes. Considering he got hexed on more than one occation, leaving memories in a nice fragile bowl is not a good idea. Simon Cell: 072 613 0635 Quote for the day: Systems Administration is the kind of job that nobody notices if you're doing it well. People only notice when their systems are not working. --- This email is hopefully virus free as it has been Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.493 / Virus Database: 292 - Release Date: 2003/06/25 From simont at pop.co.za Tue Jul 1 21:48:02 2003 From: simont at pop.co.za (Simon Taplin) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 23:48:02 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP: Will Draco be back at Hogwarts next year??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66559 There would be a couple of reasons for sending him back to Hogwarts, one is that it might be useful to have somebody there to keep an eye on things for the Death Eaters, Crab and Doyle don't seem bright enough for that type of thing. Would he be even able to stop Draco going back, I would assume he would have very limited communcations from Prison. And I can't see Dumbledore stopping Draco from returning, afterall, he was able to keep Hagrid at the school even though everybody else though he release the monster from the Chamber of Secrets. Simon Cell: 072 613 0635 Quote for the day: Systems Administration is the kind of job that nobody notices if you're doing it well. People only notice when their systems are not working. -----Original Message----- From: Tamara [mailto:buffyeton at yahoo.com] Sent: 01 July 2003 11:16 To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP: Will Draco be back at Hogwarts next year??? Will Lucius Malfoy want to send his son back to a school run by the head of the Order of the Pheonix? Someone who is responsible for sending him to Azkaban and is fighting against the Dark Lord?? Tamara --- This email is hopefully virus free as it has been Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.493 / Virus Database: 292 - Release Date: 2003/06/25 From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Jul 1 21:52:58 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 21:52:58 -0000 Subject: Babes and Skanks of PoA & GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66560 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > Ginny Weasley - You Could Do Worse Than Neville, So Stop Bad-Mouthing Him Skank. > Pansy Parkinson - Hermione Showed You Up, Didn't She, Bitch? Skank> Whoa - wait a minute, buster! Let me try and stop laughing because my stomach hurts... okay. First, I think you added Grubbly-Plank to PoA when I'd swear she didn't show up until GoF. Second, I cannot believe you put McGonagall on the skank list in PoA. I just can't bring myself to use the word "babe", but McGonagall is all right with me for talking Harry's broom. Anyone who protects Harry goes on my good list. Third, when did Ginny say something bad about Neville? She should also go on the "babe" (God, I hate that word) list because she was nice enough to say yes to him and stick to it when she was presented with the opportunity to go with Harry. I don't know if I would have been as nice, to be perfectly and horribly honest. Last, Pansy *is* a bitch. Good one. --jenny from ravenclaw, who loves the commercials and public service announcements they dug up for "I love the 80s" ******************************************************* From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 21:54:13 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 21:54:13 -0000 Subject: OOP: It is Snape's fault!!!! In-Reply-To: <2634847E.38CB7AC7.4367D819@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66561 Snuffles, > The main point, though I think was to give Harry a reality check. All he has ever heard of his father have been stellar things. Everyone loved James. James was such a wonderful person. They see James in Harry. Etc. No one is that Saintly. Harry needed to see that sometimes people aren't always how they are perceived and that Snape has every reason in the world to dislike James. ( I think anyone who was ever tormented in school woul agree that these memories stay with you and unless you let go of them, you never get past them.... Snape obviously hasn't) Perhaps Harry will catch on that for Snape, seeing Harry everyday is like seeing James as a student. As I've said before, though. If Snape was setting up some kind of object lesson to Harry, you have to question the accuracy of the entire scene. Snape would have picked the beginning and ending that most favored his point, and, if it's possible to edit a Penseive, he would have done that too. I personally believe the memories were real and never meant for Harry to be seen. And, though I proudly label myself as someone who views Snape with extreme skepticism, Harry was completely wrong to dive in there. Darrin -- Of course, I probably wouldn't have been able to resist, either. From jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 21:55:12 2003 From: jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com (Jeremy) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 21:55:12 -0000 Subject: OOP: It is Snape's fault!!!! In-Reply-To: <2634847E.38CB7AC7.4367D819@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66562 Spoiler area * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * srsiriusblack wrote: >"However, I think there was a motive to what Snape did. He KNEW >Harry would look into the Penseive. He knew Harry would see a moment >of his father acting as the ass. The main point, though I think was >to give Harry a reality check." Good point. Also remember that the point of the pensive is to store memories, which are not always accurate. It is entirely possible that Snape didn't remember the events EXACTLY as they played out in reality. True, Sirius and Lupin confirm Harry's queries on the subject, but they don't know exactly what they saw. For that matter, in my opinion, anything seen in the pensive (except for those memories of Dumbledore's) should be seen as mere interpretations of past realities, not exact records. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, srsiriusblack at a... wrote: > In a message dated 7/1/2003 4:13:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, riberam at g... writes: > > > Harry arrives in his office, then put the pensieve away and then > > welcome Harry for his class, and the same at the end, wait for Harry to > > leave before getting those memories back. So yes, Harry did > > something > > very wrong, but i think in a way Snape provoked him. > > > > That's my point. Any thoughts? > > Firstly, let me state again, that I still think Snape is pretty sexy and I love the way his character is developing. Do we trust him or not? Do we love him or loathe him? Is he evil or good? These make for a very intriguing and sexy character for adults. ( Esp anyone with a 'bad boy' complex) > > However, I think there was a motive to what Snape did. He KNEW Harry would look into the Penseive. He knew Harry would see a moment of his father acting as the ass. He also knew that this might just taint Harry's perception of James as a Saint-like figure. Also, this moment perpetuates Snape's ideas of Harry being 'above the rules' and untrustworthly. > > The main point, though I think was to give Harry a reality check. All he has ever heard of his father have been stellar things. Everyone loved James. James was such a wonderful person. They see James in Harry. Etc. No one is that Saintly. Harry needed to see that sometimes people aren't always how they are perceived and that Snape has every reason in the world to dislike James. ( I think anyone who was ever tormented in school woul agree that these memories stay with you and unless you let go of them, you never get past them.... Snape obviously hasn't) Perhaps Harry will catch on that for Snape, seeing Harry everyday is like seeing James as a student. > > Is it fair to Harry? No. But, it *does* explain a great deal about Snape's attitude towards Harry. > > -Snuffles, still awaiting ressurection from behind the veil From timregan at microsoft.com Tue Jul 1 21:56:03 2003 From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 21:56:03 -0000 Subject: OOP: Dementors (was : Re: OOP: Petunia and Azkaban) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66563 Hi All, --- In HPforGrownups fire_fly107 wrote: > I too have been wondering where Dementors originatated. Could it > be that Dementors are not really 'beasts' at all, but some kind of > mutated wizard? Maybe they were created by VM during the first year, > and after he ws defeated were recruited by the ministry of magic. We do know that "these evil creatures don't, by the way, breed but grow like a fungus where there is decay." JKR October 2000 Cheers, Dumbledad. PS Thanks to Pippin in post for this fact. From david.bartmess at myactv.net Tue Jul 1 21:47:24 2003 From: david.bartmess at myactv.net (davidbartmess) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 21:47:24 -0000 Subject: OoP Molly's Maiden Name In-Reply-To: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30B036@msgmsp16.norwest.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66564 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jennifer.r.junker at w... wrote: > > > mongo62aa wrote: > > OK, I can't quote it, because I'm replying to the > "daily digest" rather than individual emails or > reading on the site. Stupid newbie mistake ;) > But mongo wrote something about agreeing with another > theory that Molly's maiden name could be Lestrange. > But what if it's Malfoy? Maybe she's Lucius's sister! > Is that too far-fetched? I mean, it would help explain > some of the nastiness between Arthur and Lucius. > > Lucius thinks "argh, that damn Weasley, taking my > sister and turning her into a muggle-loving freak!" > > Anyone with me here? > > -Michal > > > Do we know what house Molly was in at Hogwarts? Unless it was Slytherin, I'm > inclined to think that Molly is not a sister of Lucius- due to not only > physical characteristics, but obvious differences in beliefs. In SS Harry asks Ron what house his brothers are in, and Ron repyls "Gryffindor... Mom and Dad were in it too." David Bartmess From hieya at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 21:56:25 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 21:56:25 -0000 Subject: OOP: It is Snape's fault!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66565 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maria Ribera wrote: > i also agree with > those who say that Snape should be the adult of the two and behave > accordingly, resuming the Occlumancy lessons with Harry. Harry is not a child. He is fifteen years old, and has gone through more than most people that age. Even if he was a normal person, he would still not have any excuse for that behavior at his age. This doesn't mean that I believe Harry should be held to adult standards, but we should not be so quick to blame Snape either. I personally wouldn't want to teach someone that had no respect for my privacy, and made no effort to learn what I was teaching. > > But my point is: Snape should never have removed his memories in front > of Harry! (snip) i find it a bit silly > for an adult not to know that a teenager's curiosity will be stronger > than his or her good conscience. Not all teenagers allow their curiosity to get the better of them. For all of his strengths, one of Harry's biggest problems is his nosiness. No teacher should have to worry that their fifteen year student will go snooping around their office. (snip) So yes, Harry did something > very wrong, but i think in a way Snape provoked him. Snape's general treatment of Harry over five years did lead to Harry's disregard for his privacy. But Snape did not do anything during the Occlumency sessions to deserve such a violation of his privacy. My question is, if Harry had seen Lupin or Sirius's Pensieve, would he have gone inside? What would be his excuse then? greatlit2003 "The mind is a complex and many-layered thing, Potter...or at least, most minds are..." -Severus Snape From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Jul 1 21:55:46 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 21:55:46 -0000 Subject: Scary Thought In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66566 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Simon Taplin" wrote: > Here's a scacry though. From the different books, we have found out that > Apparating is not east. Percy failed before getting his license but the > twins managed on their first time. And that many wizards/witches won't > apparate becos its difficult/dangerous. > > Now can anybody see Neville doig well with apparating or will he be visiting > the local wizard hospital for unspecified injuries :> I am not sure right now, but I think it was Charlie, who failed the first time, not Percy. And Neville has still more than a year time. We have to see how he will progress. Considering how he developped in OOTP, I think there is very well a possibility that he will do well in Apparate. Hickengruendler From sydenmill at msn.com Tue Jul 1 21:59:58 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 21:59:58 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter - Funniest Ending Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66567 So, Voldemort goes through two more books of sneaking around and strutting around with his Death Eaters and finally, near the end of Book 7, catches a meeting of the DA where all are in attendance. He creeps up to the door, his spidery-fingered hand on the doorknob -- slowly he turns it, every muscle in his body tensed to spring into action, wielding his wand in his other hand -- and, as he bursts into the room, everyone yells, "Surprise!" and starts to sing "For He's a Jolly Good Fellow!" Voldemort's last words are, "I'm melting, mel-l-l-ting," and all that's left of him on the carpet is a stain that looks a little like a scar. Bohcoo :) From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Jul 1 22:01:47 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 22:01:47 -0000 Subject: OOP In defense of Harry...spoiler In-Reply-To: <003201c33fdd$0fe1bb80$6a056750@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66568 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fridwulfa" wrote: >don't forget the first chapter, when Harry meets Dudley before the Dementor's attack. He really wants his cousin to give him an excuse to fight him, to use his magic wand against him, he's so angry and frustrated that he feels the only thing that would help him is jinxing Dudley, and had the Dementor's not appeared I'm not so sure he wouldn't have cursed Big D. He would have taken advantadge of his powers, his magical ability against a poor muggle, and yes I'm talking about Dudley, he can be whatever you want, but he's still totally powerless against a wizard, Harry is more powerful and he knows it, so it really worried me when I read it. He's not aware of the true extent of his powers, or maybe he is (and that's even more scaring) and yet he's willing to use these powers against weaker people.> Oh, yeah - Dudley is so weak. Poor Duddy Dinkums! Look, if Harry didn't have a wand, Dudley would beat the shit out of him probably daily. Isn't he already going around the neighborhood and beating up kids younger and smaller than he is? The *only* thing that stops Dudley from attacking Harry is Harry's wand, so thank God for that wand! Harry lived for 10 years being tortured by Dudley; I can't get angry at Harry or even call him sadistic for taunting Dudley just a little bit now. I'm not saying Harry should continue to go after Dudley, but I do understand it. I also have to agree with those who said Harry wouldn't really use the wand on Dudley anyway. As Hermione put it, Harry has a "saving people thing". He doesn't have a thing for hurting them. --jenny from ravenclaw ******************** From shokoono at gmx.de Tue Jul 1 21:52:25 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 23:52:25 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoTP: Voldemort and Death References: Message-ID: <003701c3401c$9ff7e070$18f3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 66569 Hey Steve! Surely this all makes sense. I think some of your ideas are great. I just wonder who must be sacrificed to get this message on.... I think the death of Sirius will be one big theme in book six and the reason why he risked his life so willingly while everybody wanted him to stay at headquarters. I don't think it is only because he'd been locked up for so long at a place he hated and that he is a person to act and not to wait and see. Remember in Gof he answerd Harry's question why he came back with mentioning that he was just fulfilling his godfather-duties.... I think the love of Padfoot's towards Harry will again be alive in this book.... Yours Finchen ----- Original Message ----- From: "stephen6341" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 5:03 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoTP: Voldemort and Death > OK, I've been kind of lurking here for a long time and thought I > should finally post (I actually have something intelligent to add-- > maybe). But first, just wanted to thank everyone here. This list is > great, and it has just fueled my love for Harry Potter. Everyone > here is ridiculously cool. > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > > S > > P > > A > > C > > E > > OK then, on to my thoughts. First, just like everyone else, I have > not been able to keep up on everything here so if I'm repeating, I > apologize. Also, you guys know a lot more about all this stuff than > I do, so please shoot holes in all this, I'm just going to babble a > bit. > > Anyway, as I read the book and have been reading some of the messages > I've had a bunch of thoughts. First some real quick ones. > Everyone's debated Harry's use of the Cruciatus Curse and DD's > failings. Personally, this is what gives the book it's flavor to me > and is not a problem. I love that Harry is not necessarily perfect > and is put in a morally murky position and doesn't always choose what > people view as the right thing. And DD is not perfect. And both of > these two were not perfect and made mistakes because they > loved...Harry loved Sirius enough to use the curse (and it was > probably b/c the curse was made out of love that it wasn't that > effective) and DD made his mistake b/c he loved Harry. Those to me > will always be forgivable mistakes b/c they are not driven by self- > gain, but by intense emotions...exactly what DD says seperates HP > from LV. > > OK, second quick point. When Hermione mentioned you can't hurt a > baby (with the baby DE), did anyone else think that has anything to > do with why Harry wasn't harmed by LV when he was a baby? I know > it's a long shot and it probably has more to do with Lily's love for > Harry, but just a thought. > > OK, last point and this is my major one (kind of realizing this > should have been 2 posts now so I'll try to keep it short). While I > don't think anyone would argue that the overriding theme of these > books is love (i.e., Lily's love saved Harry, Harry's heart is > exactly what LV doesn't have), I think that needs to be expanded one > more step. > > One of JKR's big things to me is death is not the worst thing in the > world. Already she has "killed" Harry's parents, Sirius, and > Cedric. The last few chapters had DD pointing out that LV's biggest > fault is that he views death as the worst possible outcome. I don't > think LV and DD had a specific understanding of what would be worse > than death when that whole conversation was going on. I think DD > knew that things like being without love, not having friends/family, > etc were all a fate worse than death. LV can't even begin to grasp > this. He doesn't realize if that he hadn't feared death so much, he > would have never gone after Harry as a baby and then fallen out of > power. His fear of death in that instance led to his demise. > > Death to DD is not something to be feared b/c if you spend your life > fearing death, you never live (e.g., LV). And if you start looking > back on some of the books you see this theme a bit. In PS/SS, the > guy (can't remember his name) gave up eternal life to have the stone > destroyed and DD didn't seem very fazed by it. In PoA, Harry spares > Wormtail even though he clearly deserved to die. In OoTP DD doesn't > even contemplate killing the DE's he captures knowing full well they > are likely to escape. Also, in OoTP, when LV possessed Harry at the > end what forced him out of Harry's body? Was it Harry's love for > Sirius? Probably. But even more so, it was Harry's lack of fear > about death. He wanted DD to kill him. He knew his death wouldn't > be the worst thing that can possibly happen and that LV's death would > be worth his own death and that there is some life after death (he > knew he would see Sirius). That, in my mind, scared LV out of Harry. > > All of this is confirmed (again, at least to me!) in the end when > Harry asks Nick those questions. Nick tells him that he is weak and > that's why he chose being a ghost. That some wizards need to leave > their imprint on the earth with former shells of themselves. What he > didn't say, but what I implied is that the brave wizards understand > that they will live imprints on this earth with the memories of their > actions after they are gone and there is no need to stick around to > constantly remind people that they were once here. Finally, when > Luna mentions to Harry that she will see her mom again (the voices > behind the veil) it also confirms that death is not the end (at least > to JKR). > > Now, after all this, what does it mean for the rest of the series? > Unfortunately I think it means more deaths, potentially many more. > JKR is going to illustrate that the idea that valuing love, > friendship, honor and compassion more than fearing death is what > separates good from bad. So, I fear there will be many sacrifices at > the end to prove this point. Of course, a lot of me hopes I'm wrong. > > Sorry to be so long winded, I would love to get other opinions and I > hope this makes some sense. > > Steve > > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From rayheuer3 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 22:03:01 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 18:03:01 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Werewolves and silver (was 1 down 4 to go (End of an... Message-ID: <1d0.ce20f23.2c335f15@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66570 spacemonkey at noos.fr writes: > > >spoilers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Question: Is it cannon that silver is dangerous to werewolf? I know it's the > usual theory when it comes to werewolf outside of Harry potter land. But has > JKR ever mentioned it? Reading OOTP, I was thinking that Grimmauld place had > an awful lot of silver laying around. You'd think that they'd get read of > all the silver stuff from the order's quarter if one of the member was a > werewolf and it was dangerous to him. Especially if said member tends to > live in that place (Ooooh, he was living with Sirius, isn't that cute?)... > not just come around for meetings and dinner. I think we can assume that Lupin is a "standard" werewolf, changes at the full moon, 'allergic' to silver, etc. That having been said, silver does not effect a werewolf the way, say, a cross effects a vampire. A werewolf can look at silver, be in the same room as silver, possibly even drink tea from a silver tea service (as long as the cups themselves aren't silver). What they can't do is *touch* silver. Actual *silver* silverware and things like silver door handles or faucets would be a problem, but things like picture frames or candlesticks shouldn't bother Lupin at all. A silver letter-opener on the desk in his room would be in very poor taste, though. If Kreature is as poor a housekeeper as we are led to believe, it's unlikely that anything in the Black house that was made of silver would *look* silver, having long since gone black (or at least dull) with tarnish. Many metals, including Nickel and certain brass alloys look like silver but do not tarnish. -- Ray Actually responding to *today's* posts (yay!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From brookeshanks at mugglenet.com Tue Jul 1 22:05:09 2003 From: brookeshanks at mugglenet.com (Brooke) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 22:05:09 -0000 Subject: Hunks & Horklumps in Harry Potter! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66571 Credit to Member Darrin Burnett for starting the funny list of Babes and Skanks in GoF... in keeping with his idea, anyone want to start a list for the ladies? Wizards (and muggles if that's what you're into) who kick ass & those that only wish they could... HUNKS & HORKLUMPS in Harry Potter: (remember to copy/paste entire list when adding characters so that there will be a complete running list) 1-Bill Weasley: Uber hunk who breaks ancient curses, wears an earing, and is just plain cool 2-Cedric Diggory: ultra hunk who was too noble for his own good 3-Harry: ultimate hunk who acts as our hero by constantly foiling the dastardly efforts of ultimate Horklump Voldymort 4-Ron: mega hunk who finally gets some glory on the quidditch field after being overshadowed for years by several older hunky brothers and ultimate hunk best friend 5-Charlie Weasley: red hot hunk who works with dragons. nuff said. 6-Sirius Black: the late bad-ass hunk who drove a motorcycle and died fighting for the future of his godson. women couldn't help but fall for this bad-boy wizard 7-Voldymort: the ultimate evil Horklump who is trying to destroy everything that he doesn't like because he's still pissed at his Dad 8-Wormtail: spineless horklump whose betrayal is so appauling that ultimate horklump Voldymort just keeps him around when he feels the need to abuse someone (which happens quite frequently) 9-Lucius Malfoy: malicious horklump who validates his manhood by kicking around his house-elf 10-Gilderoy Lockhart: "wanna-be hunk" horklump who is WAY too into himself, certain mental witches seem to be fooled by his smile ADD TO THE LIST!! Brooke From thebasketfairy at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 22:09:36 2003 From: thebasketfairy at yahoo.com (thebasketfairy) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 22:09:36 -0000 Subject: OOP: Werewolves and silver (was 1 down 4 to go (End of an... In-Reply-To: <1d0.ce20f23.2c335f15@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66572 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > spacemonkey at n... writes: > > > > >spoilers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Question: Is it cannon that silver is dangerous to werewolf? I know it's the > > usual theory when it comes to werewolf outside of Harry potter land. But has > > JKR ever mentioned it? Reading OOTP, I was thinking that Grimmauld place had > > an awful lot of silver laying around. You'd think that they'd get read of > > all the silver stuff from the order's quarter if one of the member was a > > werewolf and it was dangerous to him. Especially if said member tends to > > live in that place (Ooooh, he was living with Sirius, isn't that cute?)... > > not just come around for meetings and dinner. > > I think we can assume that Lupin is a "standard" werewolf, changes at the > full moon, 'allergic' to silver, etc. > > That having been said, silver does not effect a werewolf the way, say, a > cross effects a vampire. A werewolf can look at silver, be in the same room as > silver, possibly even drink tea from a silver tea service (as long as the cups > themselves aren't silver). What they can't do is *touch* silver. Actual > *silver* silverware and things like silver door handles or faucets would be a > problem, but things like picture frames or candlesticks shouldn't bother Lupin at > all. A silver letter-opener on the desk in his room would be in very poor > taste, though. > > If Kreature is as poor a housekeeper as we are led to believe, it's unlikely > that anything in the Black house that was made of silver would *look* silver, > having long since gone black (or at least dull) with tarnish. Many metals, > including Nickel and certain brass alloys look like silver but do not tarnish. > > -- Ray > Would the silver have the same affect on a werewolf when he is in man form or only during the full moon while he is in werewolf form? Kathleen G. (starting my second read) From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 22:10:43 2003 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 22:10:43 -0000 Subject: A few questions: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66573 1- What do we know about "Grindenwald?" How soon after AD defeats him does LV rise? 2- What color are the prefect badges? As soon as I find out what's what, I just might formulate me some theories. At least some hypotheses. -Joe in SoFla From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Tue Jul 1 22:12:37 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 22:12:37 -0000 Subject: OOP: Darker (wasDisappointing AND Excellent) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66574 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mrs_monkeypen" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" > wrote: > > I thought OoP was a much darker book in tone throughout its entire > > length. From Harry's heightened feelings of isolation in the very > > first chapter, through the oppressive atmosphere of 12 Grimmauld > > Place to the insidious tightening of the Ministry's noose around > > Hogwarts to Harry's ominous dreams of the hallway and the door to > the > > potential loss of personal privacy in communication between people > > (intercpeted letters, fireplace lurkeers, etc.), the entire feel of > > the book was darker to me. > > > Yes...it was darker because it was so much more INTERNAL than GoF. > Harry was alone with his thoughts for much of the book. There was > always a feeling of foreboding throughout the book, and much of the > joyousness of the earlier books (Halloween, Christmas, end of year > celebrations, for example) were either absent or just less cheery. > Whereas JKR has been able to insert bits of lightness and laughter > throughout most of the earlier books, there is a real effort with the > Fred and George antics to provide breaks from the darkness. I felt > like the sun never shown throughout the book. > > kim And wasn't it almost oppressive being shut in with Harry's thoughts almost the entire time? No Dumbledore, almost no Hagrid, Sirius rapidly becoming a basket case and Hermione and Ron almost another species, a species called "child" while Harry is facing all these horrendous things and doing it alone. I can not comprehend, just can't believe Dumbledore's miscalculations. To leave Sirius and Harry, the two people most intimately involved, well out of it, someone was bound to crack. Someone has said Sirius seemed to have a death wish. I can see how the isolation made it easier for him to act recklessly. But there is also this matter of the House elf. I'm not sure how, but this house elf is at the crux of the matter somehow. And that puts me off kilter. We have met rebellious house elves but that was Dobby and he was entitled but to meet a rebellious elf loyal to the bad guys, and to say that somehow Sirius' treatment of that elsf enabled the DE's cause, wow. That's a right knotty mess. J From Joanne0012 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 22:14:21 2003 From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 22:14:21 -0000 Subject: OOP: Disappointing In-Reply-To: <300D3E80.6792066A.4367D819@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66575 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, srsiriusblack at a... wrote: > In a message dated 7/1/2003 3:28:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, fire_fly107 at h... writes: > > > Yes, the writing is simple and there's not a lot of variety in the > > descriptions, but the one thing many adults forget when the read > > Harry Potter (esp. more recent ones where the themes are more mature) > > that these are childrens books. They were originally meant to appeal > > to people around the age of 12. > these books are not adult books. We, as adults have just happened to fall in love with her stories. If you read them as I do, you replace 'said' with different words, or rearrange her writing a bit. 'Said' is over used but I doubt that children think this. It makes it easier for them to read. > > -Snuffles from behind the veil First of all, Rowling has never specified an age group for the books and was dismayed by the Times' invention of the children's best-seller list to accommodate Harry. Indeed, she's only said that she writes for herself, and has specified that her humor is what she herself enjoys and is not specifically aimed at kids. Recommending the overuse of "said" in lieu of the many useulf and fundamental alternatives so that the book is "easier to read," especially for a 12-year-old, reminds me of the rationale that Levine, the editor at Scholatsic, used when Bowdlerizing the title and contents of HP and the Philosopher's Stone. From Joanne0012 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 22:18:22 2003 From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 22:18:22 -0000 Subject: OOP: Houses of MWPP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66576 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "abhamghp" wrote: > Has there been any definite mention in canon of what houses James, > Sirius, Lupin, and Wormtail were in? Don't have books with me, but > I'm pretty sure that the only mention was in OOP, when Harry saw > James fooling around with the snitch and assumed he was a > Gryffindor. I'm leaning toward all four of them being in > Slytherin. > April In an interview a couple of years ago, sombody asked JKR what position James held when he played Quidditch for Gryffindor, and JKR named a position (Seeker, I believe) but did not correct the assumption that he'd been in Gryffindor. From linlou43 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 22:23:29 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 22:23:29 -0000 Subject: Hunks & Horklumps in Harry Potter! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66577 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brooke" wrote: > Credit to Member Darrin Burnett for starting the funny list of Babes > and Skanks in GoF... in keeping with his idea, anyone want to start > a list for the ladies? Wizards (and muggles if that's what you're > into) who kick ass & those that only wish they could... HUNKS & > HORKLUMPS in Harry Potter: (remember to copy/paste entire list when > adding characters so that there will be a complete running list) > > 1-Bill Weasley: Uber hunk who breaks ancient curses, wears an earing, > and is just plain cool > > 2-Cedric Diggory: ultra hunk who was too noble for his own good > > 3-Harry: ultimate hunk who acts as our hero by constantly foiling the > dastardly efforts of ultimate Horklump Voldymort > > 4-Ron: mega hunk who finally gets some glory on the quidditch field > after being overshadowed for years by several older hunky brothers > and ultimate hunk best friend > > 5-Charlie Weasley: red hot hunk who works with dragons. nuff said. > > 6-Sirius Black: the late bad-ass hunk who drove a motorcycle and died > fighting for the future of his godson. women couldn't help but fall > for this bad-boy wizard > > 7-Voldymort: the ultimate evil Horklump who is trying to destroy > everything that he doesn't like because he's still pissed at his Dad > > 8-Wormtail: spineless horklump whose betrayal is so appauling that > ultimate horklump Voldymort just keeps him around when he feels the > need to abuse someone (which happens quite frequently) > > 9-Lucius Malfoy: malicious horklump who validates his manhood by > kicking around his house-elf > > 10-Gilderoy Lockhart: "wanna-be hunk" horklump who is WAY too into > himself, certain mental witches seem to be fooled by his smile > > > ADD TO THE LIST!! > > > Brooke 12-Fred and George Weasley: make me laugh hunks, man do they got style. 13-Remus Lupin: you just want to hug him hunk 14-Kingsly Shacklebolt: pirate hunk, a deep voice and single earing-enough to make a girl swoon. Those are my additions. Who has some more? I Love the Eighties-----"Where's the beef?" Linda From marie_mouse at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 22:23:56 2003 From: marie_mouse at hotmail.com (Marie Jadewalker) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 22:23:56 -0000 Subject: staff housing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66578 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sleepygirl003" wrote: > I'm new, so forgive me if this has been throughly discussed (as I > imagine it might have been). > > Where dothe hogwarts staff live? We're seen MM in a dressing gown, > so she must live in the castle somewhere. And why are the all > single and without children? is that a criteria for > professorship? > > > > -Leslianne, newly grownup Welcome, Leslianne. I don't have a lot of personal insight into this matter, but I know it can be frusterating when your post is lost in the shuffle, so I thought I'd respond. Using my handy- dandy "Fantastic Posts," I found a really old and interesting discussion on this topic that begins here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/13060 (That's message 13060 in case the link doesn't work) To summarize, it's possible that some of them are married and we don't know because it's not important to the story (or Harry) or that it will be important later. It's also possible that some were widowed (or "widowered") during Voldemort War I. Also, someone finally found the JKR quote which I remembered too dimly to be sure of: Q: Sheila McCleary - Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses? A: Good question - yes, a few of them but that information is sort of restricted - you'll find out why. (http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2001/0301- comicrelief-staff.htm) And hip-hip-hooray for Quick Quotes Quill and the whole Floo Network. ;) ~Marie, who wishes she could find a job where she *had* to keep up with all the HP4GU posts! From rayheuer3 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 22:26:01 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 18:26:01 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Werewolves and silver (was 1 down 4 to go (End o... Message-ID: <1ce.d003641.2c336479@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66579 thebasketfairy at yahoo.com writes: > Would the silver have the same affect on a werewolf when he is in man > form or only during the full moon while he is in werewolf form? Generally, silver is poisonous to the werewolf no matter which form he/she is in. Sometimes the effect is greater on the wolf form. This is definitely one of those things that JKR can write any way she likes, so we'll have to wait for canon on it. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Jul 1 22:30:04 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 22:30:04 -0000 Subject: OOP: Toothbrush? (was Disappointing) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66580 I don't even know if the spoiler prefix is needed here or not. Pippin wrote: > The > downside is that the explanations seem to be afterthoughts > when we finally get them...and we do, eventually, IMO. For > example, I think we have enough canon now to sort out the > "toothbrush" problem, but that's another post. Toothbrush? What are you talking about, Pippin? It evidently is another post, because I'm completely flummoxed. David From shokoono at gmx.de Tue Jul 1 22:23:07 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 00:23:07 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP Molly's Maiden Name References: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30B036@msgmsp16.norwest.com> Message-ID: <009201c34020$fb4eea50$18f3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 66581 rlating to houses as relatives have to be in the same one is not on solid ground. Except for I still believe that Sirius was in Griffindor (in which other way he would have been able to draw up such a good friendship with Lupin and James) Pavati and Padma Pattil are not in the same house and they are sisters! Yours Finchen ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:15 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP Molly's Maiden Name > > > mongo62aa wrote: > > OK, I can't quote it, because I'm replying to the > "daily digest" rather than individual emails or > reading on the site. Stupid newbie mistake ;) > But mongo wrote something about agreeing with another > theory that Molly's maiden name could be Lestrange. > But what if it's Malfoy? Maybe she's Lucius's sister! > Is that too far-fetched? I mean, it would help explain > some of the nastiness between Arthur and Lucius. > > Lucius thinks "argh, that damn Weasley, taking my > sister and turning her into a muggle-loving freak!" > > Anyone with me here? > > -Michal > > > Do we know what house Molly was in at Hogwarts? Unless it was Slytherin, I'm > inclined to think that Molly is not a sister of Lucius- due to not only > physical characteristics, but obvious differences in beliefs. > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From shokoono at gmx.de Tue Jul 1 22:13:46 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 00:13:46 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OotP: Harry's Wand References: Message-ID: <009101c34020$fa97a840$18f3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 66582 Harry could also be able to do the Lumos spell without holding his wand because ha was in danger and this made him feel a special intensitiy of emotion tha could have enabled him. Snape alo just might have been too much stick in his mind that he couldn't do magic without his wand and he was jinxed.... Yours Finchen ----- Original Message ----- From: "mongo62aa" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 8:31 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] OotP: Harry's Wand > In Chapter One, Harry manages to get his wand to light up, even > though he is not holding it. Many people consider this to be an > example of wandless magic, but I am not so sure. I think that > *true* wandless magic would be Harry producing light from his hand, > without a wand at all. Harry clearly is magically powerful, more so > than Snape at the same age (who could not use his wand without > holding it), but I think that Apparating to the roof to escape > (PS/SS)is much more impressive. > > On the other hand, this example does show Harry's increasing control > over his magic, as does his directing his Patronus's movements in > the same chapter. > > Bill > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From shokoono at gmx.de Tue Jul 1 22:32:56 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 00:32:56 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP Molly's Maiden Name References: <3F01FB51.8090504@cloudnet.com> Message-ID: <009301c34020$fc01bf90$18f3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 66583 Molly's maiden name couldn't be Evans for a simple reason: In CoS the whole Weasley family (including the children) is said to be pureblodded BUT Evans is the name James calls Lily in OOP(he wanted to date Lily at that time, I think Sirius or Lupin tells Harry within the Floonetwerk-chat) (for I don't think Molly was at school at that time anymore because she said the gamekeeper was somebody else than Hagrid (GoF) and that was 50 jears ago as Hagrid said DD got this job for him when he was expelled) and JK said Evans would be Lily's maiden name in an interview ("Lily Potter's maiden name was Evans. " www.mugglenet.com)!!! This would mean that Molly would be mugglerelated and this is impossible. Yours Finchen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat and Jim Gruenke" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 11:21 PM Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] OOP Molly's Maiden Name > jennifer r junker wrote: > > > > But mongo wrote something about agreeing with another > > theory that Molly's maiden name could be Lestrange. > > But what if it's Malfoy? > > Pat replies: > > You're both wrong. Molly's maiden name is Evans. It's in the FAQ, I > believe. Not found in the books, but JKR stated it in an interview. > > Can I be a L.O.O.N., now??? I am from Minnesota, after all.... ;-) Pat > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From mahesh_subramony at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 22:21:19 2003 From: mahesh_subramony at yahoo.com (Mahesh) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 22:21:19 -0000 Subject: OOP: Professors at Hogwarts and Family. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66584 Although after reading the book, I feel that it has been well written, it did leave me with a lot of questions unanswered not to mention add a few more. But most of all I wanted some more canon on some of the characters' families. Lily and James for one, which has been mentioned in the group, but one thing that I feel Jo is ignoring till the very end is .. about the Professors at Hogwarts. Its been 5 years since Harry started meeting them, and has he not wondered till now, that none of them seem to have a FAMILY ? . I mean, wife/husband and kids ( or siblings if you exclude Aberforth). I for one, noticed THAT by the end of the third book !!!. None of the Professors that we have been introduced to seem to have kids or near family and that seems like a requirement to teach at Hogwarts :-)) . It seems really strange and I thought Jo would address this in OOP. I wonder why even Hermione seems unaffected by this, a person who normally notices anything odd. I racked my brain for some explanation, but I'm afraid I could come up with none. It would be intersting to see, if any of you have an explanation or a theory why this is so, and why Jo is delaying this till the very end. Mahesh ( who feels that the sixth and seventh book have to be at least 5000 pages each to answer all his queries !!!!! ) From rarpsl at optonline.net Tue Jul 1 22:07:34 2003 From: rarpsl at optonline.net (Robert A. Rosenberg) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 18:07:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question about the inheritance thread... In-Reply-To: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30B019@msgmsp16.norwest.com> References: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30B019@msgmsp16.norwest.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66585 At 10:57 AM -0500 on 07/01/2003, jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com wrote about Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question about the inheritance thre: >There did use to be (and may still be for all I know) a peculiar system in >the UK (and elsewhere) that prohibited the free devise of property- property >could be entailed so that it HAD to pass to the eldest son- or eldest male >relative if there was no son (which left many widows at the mercy of their >own sons since the property title changed hands at the death of the >husband.) I Can see that for Titles/Etc. OTOH, I seem to remember that a "Life Benefit" provision in a Will is Possible (such as a secondary dwelling and a Monetary Support Fund going to the Widow [along with a Dowager title if the Husband has a title]) with the Estate only getting her bequests back at the time of her death. From tereza_d at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 22:37:23 2003 From: tereza_d at yahoo.com (tereza_d) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 22:37:23 -0000 Subject: OOP : death of character (CAREFUL: spoiler) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66586 this is about the death of the character in HP: OOP so if u don't want to know then don't read on: xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx x x xxxxx xxxx xxxxx x x x x x x x x x x x xxxxx xxxxx x x x x xxxxx xxxx xxxxx x x x x x x x x x x xxxxx x xxxxx x xxxx xxxxx x x xxxxx xxx xxx xxx xxxxxxx xxxxx xxx x I generally thought the book was really good. I found the previous HP books very funny but it seemed like it was more for kids whereas this book dealt with a lot of emotions, relationship and feelings and seems more realistic because of the struggles within the characters. The only thing that was disappointing was the fact that Sirius had been killed. Although JK Rowling said it is for the book. I keep thinking that letting him stay would mean we would see a different side to Harry because he never had a parent and Sirius was the only one he considered as one. It also seems very sad that Harry had gone to save him but in the end it was Sirius who saved Harry and was killed. You can really see the closeness in their relationship and how they were both willing to risk their life saving the other. I will certainly miss him a lot and he was one of the characters i like a lot in the book. but it shall be interesting to see what the next book will be like now that people like Malfoy have been outed as a Death Eater. The next book will certainly be full of changes but one thing that will be missed by all, will probably be Sirius!! From armstrong at fastnet.co.uk Tue Jul 1 22:43:03 2003 From: armstrong at fastnet.co.uk (davydarmstrong) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 22:43:03 -0000 Subject: Why did Lily marry James ? / Snapes other worst memory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66587 Lily married the arrogant James because she fell in love with James. Because she drank the love potion that Snape prepared to make Lily fall in love with him (Snape). There are several ways this could have happened: 1) by accident, she drank the potion (in her butterbeer?) and saw James before Snape, or the potion was prepared with one of James's hairs instead of one of Snapes 2) deliberately, James knew that Snape had prepared this potion (and why) and stole it from Snape and administered it to Lily because he wanted Lily to go out with him This would be one of Snapes other 'worst memories' that he didn't want Harry to come across. From fashionmenu at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 22:46:10 2003 From: fashionmenu at hotmail.com (dublinaaireland) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 22:46:10 -0000 Subject: Continue to snape half-vampire theory by a newbie In-Reply-To: <00bd01c33fff$d32036e0$aef3a986@caro> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66588 possible spoiler... Re. Icewalker and Carolin's comments on Snape... I just had a thought (though I could be entirely wrong since I havent finished OoP - dang, I must be the only one...) There is this continued mention of Snape being greasy and the theory of him being a vampire - naturally, vampires need to stay out of the sun, but let's say he uses 'sunscreen' which we all know is greasy?? Just thinking out loud?? D From armstrong at fastnet.co.uk Tue Jul 1 22:49:48 2003 From: armstrong at fastnet.co.uk (davydarmstrong) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 22:49:48 -0000 Subject: OOP: Luna! The new Hermione?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66589 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brooke" wrote: > In the first four books I always felt like Hermione was JKR's > surrogate character in most situations. Now, after reading OOP, I > see some very interesting things about Luna that make me think that > JKR may be transferring herself vicariously from Hermione to Luna. I've always felt that Harry and Ron and Hermione were *all* JKR's surrogate characters: Harry - all alone, nobody to love me Ron - everything I own is crap Hermione - swot From Cfitz812 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 22:51:22 2003 From: Cfitz812 at aol.com (Claire) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 22:51:22 -0000 Subject: OOP: Switching Spells--NOT Lupin and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66590 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Helen R. Granberry" > wrote: > > > > > > >I am piqued, now. I am guilty of missing all references to the > > switching spell in the books. -furious blushing- > > Since you've brought it to my attention I agree 105% that Harry > > *forgetting* the definition of switching spell is a significant > clue. > > Harry apparently hasn't been paying attention to something he > should > > have and I am sure if we handed these clues on a scrap of paper to > > Hermione she would be back in five with the answer. > > As for me, I am going to apply switching spells to every > significant > > inamate object in the entire series till I come up with one. > > Trial and error is tedious but its the best I can offer! > > > > watching this thread from Herein > > Valky > > > > > > Me: All of the references to Switching Spells seem to have to do > with > > switching body parts. There are gobs of references to Harry having > his > > mother's eyes... what if he *literally* has his mothers eyes? Kinda > > gross, but... there you go. ;) > > > > Helen > > > > (who strongly doubts the 'James is really Lupin' theory, but still > > thinks Switching Spells have to be important) > > > > > > ARRGGGGH! How uncannily true! I was thinking along the lines of scar > but that can't be a fake. What if 'the eyes have it!' I dont really > know if I can contemplate that, its a little bit grotesque in > visualised perspective. Thanks for the body parts clue thaough that > narrows down my trial and error list significantly. > > Valky > > Me: Carrying on with that theme, having his mother's eyes - literally - could that explain why Harry reacted to Snape's worst memory the way he did? After all, he stated (rather flatly) that Lily hated James. It wasn't a question to Sirius and Lupin, it seemed to be a statement. Hmmm. So interesting. Claire From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 22:58:43 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 18:58:43 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP: Sirius + Neville Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66591 In a message dated 7/1/2003 4:14:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, whammer11 at yahoo.com writes: > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > spoiler stuff > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > > I can't find any other postings on this, but isn't it a bit odd that > on page 808 of OotP (US, hardback edition) Neville asks Harry if > Sirius was a special friend? I thought the entire mission was to > rescue Sirius!!! > Personally, I agree, and also find it a bit of a FLINT that Neville has no reaction whatsoever when Harry says they're going to rescue "Sirius". Heck, the whole WW thinks Sirius is a murderer and Neville, upon hearing the uncommon name of the person they're going to rescue, doesn't even comment "you don't mean Sirius Black, do you?" or some other thing like that. I know he's trusting of Harry and all but....:::shrugs::: Heck, even spacey Luna realized they were talking about Sirius Black, commenting before Harry went into the fire, asking if they meant Stubby Boardman, and I'm pretty sure they didn't say Sirius' last name when they talked about him then either. I really do think that JKR wasn't really thinking about it at that point. I didn't reflect upon it myself until the 3rd time through it or so. Having said that though, I found that particular line, asking Harry about Sirius, very touching. ~Jenny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Tue Jul 1 23:04:57 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 16:04:57 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Continue to snape half-vampire theory by a newbie Message-ID: <410-2200372123457109@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 66592 D wrote: "There is this continued mention of Snape being greasy and the theory of him being a vampire - naturally, vampires need to stay out of the sun, but let's say he uses 'sunscreen' which we all know is greasy?? Just thinking out loud??" Now me (Wendy): Another possibility is that Snape takes a potion to give him protection from sunlight, and one of the side-effects of the potion is the greasy hair. Of course, it is also possible that Snape doesn't *need* protection from the sun. In some mythologies, vampires do not suffer damage from sunlight. Bram Stoker's Dracula is one - he could be out and about in the day, but his supernatural powers were reduced. So, sun protection might or might not be an issue for Vampire!Snape (or Half-Vampire!Snape, as I prefer him). :-) Wendy From deadstop at wombatzone.com Tue Jul 1 23:08:27 2003 From: deadstop at wombatzone.com (Stacy Forsythe) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 19:08:27 -0400 Subject: Use of "said" (was Re: OOP: Disappointing) Message-ID: <4.3.2.20030701190412.05a72e28@pop.uky.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 66593 quoth joann0012: >Recommending the overuse of "said" in lieu of the many useulf and >fundamental alternatives so that the book is "easier to read," especially >for a >12-year-old, reminds me of the rationale that Levine, the editor at >Scholatsic, >used when Bowdlerizing the title and contents of HP and the Philosopher's >Stone. I've actually read a number of writing/style manuals lately (I do volunteer editing for a small publisher in my city) in which the use of "said" almost all the time is recommended over the more flowery alternatives. I know, I thought the opposite as well, but the rationale is that "said" is an invisible word that the reader's mind will just skip, whereas the more specific verbs can serve as distractions from the overall reading experience. The manuals didn't say not to use such words at all, but definitely recommended doing so sparingly, and falling back on "said" far more often than not. An observation, for what it's worth. Stacy Forsythe deadstop at wombatzone.com From starropal at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 23:08:47 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 18:08:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hunks & Horklumps in Harry Potter! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66594 1-Bill Weasley: Uber hunk who breaks ancient curses, wears an earing, and is just plain cool 2-Cedric Diggory: ultra hunk who was too noble for his own good 3-Harry: ultimate hunk who acts as our hero by constantly foiling the dastardly efforts of ultimate Horklump Voldymort 4-Ron: mega hunk who finally gets some glory on the quidditch field after being overshadowed for years by several older hunky brothers and ultimate hunk best friend 5-Charlie Weasley: red hot hunk who works with dragons. nuff said. 6-Sirius Black: the late bad-ass hunk who drove a motorcycle and died fighting for the future of his godson. women couldn't help but fall for this bad-boy wizard 7-Voldymort: the ultimate evil Horklump who is trying to destroy everything that he doesn't like because he's still pissed at his Dad 8-Wormtail: spineless horklump whose betrayal is so appauling that ultimate horklump Voldymort just keeps him around when he feels the need to abuse someone (which happens quite frequently) 9-Lucius Malfoy: malicious horklump who validates his manhood by kicking around his house-elf 10-Gilderoy Lockhart: "wanna-be hunk" horklump who is WAY too into himself, certain mental witches seem to be fooled by his smile 11-Fred and George Weasley: make me laugh hunks, man do they got style. 12-Remus Lupin: you just want to hug him hunk 13-Kingsly Shacklebolt: pirate hunk, a deep voice and single earing-enough to make a girl swoon. 14-Albus Dumbledore-Has Style/Twinkling Eyes Hunk 15-Alastor Moody-Constant Vigilance Scarred Hunk 16-Tom Riddle-Award Winning Future Villian Hunk 17-Bartemus Crouch-CRABCUSTARD Hunk (*waves to Eileen*) 18-Barty Crouch-Patricide Hunk 19-Percy Weasley-Bad To His Mother Horklump 20-Oliver Wood-"Knock her off her broom!" Hunk (?) 21-Mundungus Fletcher-Dodgy Cauldrons Horklump 22-Argus Filch-Whips and Chains Horklump 23-Dobby-Mismatched Socks House Elf (He didn't fit in either category) 24-Nearly Headless Nick-Not Headless Enough Hunk (Bwahaha fear me) 25-Firenze-Mars Looks Wacky Hunk Looking out for the underdog, Star Opal Darrin's Babes, while not a good band name is a great name for a burlesque show! _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Tue Jul 1 23:12:51 2003 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 16:12:51 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoTP: Voldemort and Death In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9210217354.20030701161251@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66595 Tuesday, July 1, 2003, 8:03:36 AM, stephen6341 wrote: s> Now, after all this, what does it mean for the rest of the series? s> Unfortunately I think it means more deaths, potentially many more. s> JKR is going to illustrate that the idea that valuing love, s> friendship, honor and compassion more than fearing death is what s> separates good from bad. So, I fear there will be many sacrifices at s> the end to prove this point. Of course, a lot of me hopes I'm wrong. IMHO, JKR is in a very precarious position... I can understand her desire to stress this point, but she does it at her own risk. If she overdoes it with one death after another, she could end up just depressing and alienating people. -- Dave From rasster477 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 23:06:17 2003 From: rasster477 at yahoo.com (rasster477) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 23:06:17 -0000 Subject: Ron and Hermione a couple? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66596 Has anyone heard the interview with J.K. just talking in general about the fifth book? I saw it aired the night the fifth book came out. I could have sworn that I heard her say that Ron and Hermione were gonna hook up. Obviously, this is not the case. I have finished reading the book and nothing romantic between them is ever mentioned. I was just curious, maybe I'm crazy, but did anyone else see this interview? From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Jul 1 23:20:33 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 09:20:33 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Teachers' Housing (very very slight OoP reference) In-Reply-To: <005c01c34001$74925d40$837c0550@f3b7j4> Message-ID: <3F02A3E1.5151.140652@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 66597 On 1 Jul 2003 at 19:49, manawydan wrote: > Hogwarts is a _big_ place and there's lots of it that we haven't seen. I > would imagine that it's able to offer accommodation to any of the staff that > need it. As some people know, I've designed floor plans of Hogwarts based on the information contained in the books (and I'm currently revising them with the new information gathered from Order of the Phoenix). While mapping Hogwarts isn't a totally straightforward task, it has necessitated looking at the information on what's on different floors. There's large sections of Hogwarts we have no information about yet - plenty of room for teacher accomodation. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Tue Jul 1 23:24:49 2003 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 16:24:49 -0700 Subject: OOP: Snape, the Pensieve, and "Perseus" Message-ID: <15010935265.20030701162449@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66598 Just two points: 1. While I believe that Harry had no right prying into Snape's memories (whether he left it out deliberately or not), I think it was indefensible that he halted the Occulmency lessons. 2. I think the "Perseus Evans" theory can be salvaged, but Lily clearly was not his "Andromeda"; and now I'm wondering if *Andromeda* (Tonks' mum) was his "Andromeda"...? So his relationship with Lily was probably unknown to both of them, for whatever reason. And now let's see if we can figure out why not! (Separated at birth? Son of Mr. Evans from a previous marriage? Mr. Evans actually Snape's squib uncle? &c., &c.) And of course speculate on what his heroic connection with Andromeda might have been... -- Dave From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Tue Jul 1 23:23:48 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 23:23:48 -0000 Subject: TBAY: OOP: Too much butterbeer--Terry gets the D!Ts (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66599 Marina staggered out of the Royal George, clutching a half-empty bottle of firewhiskey by the neck, and staggered across the debris- strewn pier toward the waterline. She had spent the night drinking herself into a stupor at Sirius' wake. George had been tolerant at first, but when Marina climbed onto the bar and attempted to actually *sing* her latest filk, he unceremoniously kicked her out. Now she waded into the waves, kicking waterlogged thongs and shards of PINE out of her way, determined to reach the deck of U.S.S. SAD DENIAL or drown trying. Fortunately, she only got in waist-deep before Dobby showed up in a small rowboat to conduct her to her destination. The ever-helpful house elf helped Marina clamber onto the deck, supplied her with a large, fluffy towel, and led her into the lounge. By then, Marina was beginning to feel almost sober, but that feeling fled as she ducked through the low door into the lounge and found herself staring at *two* Terrys. "Whoa!" Marina blinked, looked down at the bottle in her hand, and quickly handed it over to Dobby. "I've *got* to lay off this stuff. It's making me see double." One Terry, looking rather the worse for wear, was curled up on the cough, clutching an adorable black teddy bear to her chest. The other was looming over her in a rather belligerent manner. Her attention seemed to be divided between her bear-hugging twin and the portrait of Phineas on the wall. "Where do you think she's going with the thestrals?", Terry #2 demanded. "Well, the thestrals can find their way anywhere, we know that from canon," Terry #1 said enthusiastically. "Wasn't it a little mundane to waste that on the Ministry of Magic? And they are intimately connected with death. What if they can take Harry to the place behind the veil?" "You know," said Marina, "I think you've got something there. Terry #2 turned to glare at her. "Oh, no, not another alcohol-soaked Sirius fan looking for denial! Are you really buying this thestral nonsense?" "I don't think it's nonsense at all," said Marina. "I think it's brilliant. I haven't really thought much about the thestrals, but JKR did emphasize both their connection with death and their ability to find any location you ask them to go to. And you know what that means, don't you? Not only can they find their way beyond the veil, but..." She paused dramatically. "They can also find the way *back*!" "Well, maybe," Terry #2 conceded reluctantly. "But just because the thestrals can find their way back doesn't mean they can bring anyone back with them. If so, why couldn't they bring *anyone* back -- James or Lily, for example -- rather than just Sirius. Death would have no meaning in the HP universe if you could fetch any dead person back to life just by riding in on a thestral." "Ah," said Marina, "but Sirius is a special case, isn't he? Most people pass behind the veil as spirits, leaving their bodies on this side. You can't bring back a disembodied spirit. But Sirius went through physically. He should be able to come back physically. All he needs is transport." "The veil is the division between life and death!" Terry #2 insisted angrily. "Sirius went through to the other side. He's beyond the veil. He's dead!" "I don't think it's all that clear-cut a division," said Marina. "I mean, look at Headless Nick." "What about Headless Nick? He flat-out said that Sirius wasn't coming back!" "Yes, but he also flat-out admitted that he doesn't know what he's talking about," Marina pointed out. "He said he doesn't know what's on the other side, because he was too cowardly to cross himself. So he has no idea what really happens there, or what condition Sirius might be in. And consider this--" Marina stopped for another dramatic pause, grabbed her bottle back from Dobby and took a generous swig. She was on a roll now. "Nick is definitely dead. So are all the other ghosts we've seen. Yet they haven't gone through the veil. They're still hanging about here. If we can have dead people on the living side of the veil, then symmetry suggests that we can also have living people on the dead side. It's just a matter of being in the wrong place. And Nick, in his last conversation with Harry, seemed to be regretting his failure to go across. Perhaps in the future, we'll see not one, but two characters restored to their proper place in the universe: Nick will stop being a ghost and go through the veil, and Sirius will come back!" Inspired by her own speech, Marina drained the last of the Firewhiskey and dropped on the couch next to Terry #1. "Got another one of those bears?" she asked. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Jul 1 23:24:24 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 23:24:24 -0000 Subject: OOP: Disappointing AND Excellent In-Reply-To: <011301c33f8d$1ec56f20$9ddc5644@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66600 Debbie wrote many good points: > I was also really disappointed with the Dept of Mysteries episode; I felt like I was watching a run-of-the-mill action movie Check. Me too. > the parallels between the ending of each book and the correspondingly numbered obstacle to the philosopher's stone seemed more apparent than ever this time around. I struggle to see the parallels (or rather, I think one can jumble the obstacles and still get possible parallels) though I feel they must be there: 7 obstacles is just so neat. Doubtless this has been posted before but I would like to understand this better. How is the end of PS foreshadowed by Fluffy, e.g? I agree the type of set-piece battle is unlikely to be repeated. (and... no polyjuice! Voldemort's animagus abilities tossed in almost to be dismissed! no time turner! the imperius victims exposed early on!) > I didn't find the darkness of OOP disturbing. In fact, I thought GoF was a darker book in many ways. It definitely affected me more. Yes. The way I see this is that the *type* of darkness introduced in GOF was essentially new, and much of the darkness of OOP was a continuation and deepening. It is not different in kind. To me the disturbing thing about GOF is that it is the first book to push forward plainly the view that Voldemort is not the essence of evil in the WW, he is just its logical conclusion. OOP takes this further partly with more exposure of the corruption of the MOM but also with the exposure of flaws in the good charcters. > I thought a number of things that were irrelevant to the plot were slipped in primarily for the purpose of answering fans' questions -- like why isn't Hermione in > Ravenclaw, which is the only one I can think of at the moment. I thought that too. > I was still annoyed with the gender characterization in OOP. JKR did demonstrate that there are women in significant Ministry positions, but the only one that gets developed is unrelentingly evil. In fact, she's given us two Evil Women. Molly, OTOH, is shown as the OOP member in charge of the headquarters housecleaning team. And Tonks was rather pointless. Only the male OOP members we met turned out to have a role. The adult women are just too static for my taste. And while we saw both Hermione and Ginny take active roles, they were there to support the hero. At times, I felt that they were primarily out there establishing their shipping credentials to Harry. OTOH, McGonagall, who in the earlier books has looked rather wet beside Dumbledore (go on, say the name!; stop that Dementor!; stay in the hospital wing to see Sirius!), was shown to have real gumption. I think the jury's still out on some of the others, notably Molly and Tonks. I see Molly taking refuge in cleaning etc: her dedication shows she has something else in her to suppress, IMO. I really liked Luna, though I have a soft spot for dreamy characters (of either gender) who suddenly come out with penetrating insights or crack into action when the plot demands it (I know she didn't do much of that, but that's presumably where her character is going). Me and a million Mary Sues, no doubt. However, I was slightly disappointed in Bellatrix Lestrange. Yes, I understand that 14 years in Az does you a lot of no good, but she was just a bit too insane for my taste. I preferred her in the Pensieve, when she was clearly sane - just very focused. She had lost the charisma that had one imagining half her Pensieve audience were about to realise they had got Voldemort all wrong. I had hoped for a character who would make death-eaterism attractive, exciting, and sexy. > In particular, I think she does an excellent job of balancing one character's actions against contrasting actions of other characters. Yes, lots to chew on in a second read, I reckon. Some observations: > > Harry -- IMO, it was critical to the story arc for Harry to fail in a significant way. Yup. > Hermione -- Hermione was *way* too successful in OOP. Yes, I found her ability to offer unerring character insights into Cho particularly odd. > The only suggestion of failure here is in her campaign to free the house-elves. It failed, but she's still unaware of that fact. Yes, the fact that she takes no steps to find out if her campaign is working is particularly interesting. If nothing else, it shows she is just as capable of displacement activity as Molly. > I believe she must be being set up to fail spectacularly in the next book. We've seen all the other main student characters fail now, and I think her turn is coming. I think so too. > Ron -- I think JKR was quite effective here by awarding him responsibilities but letting us readers know that he had not earned either one. I may have missed something on my one read, but were we told that Ron had not earned his prefect responsibilities? Yes, Dumbledore thought Harry was at least as well fitted for the job, but not that Ron wasn't. It's a weakness of the house system that if there are two good candidates in one house, and Draco in another, you can't select the better candidates. I think there was also a message in the Quidditch part about giving people responsibilities that they can grow into. > The curse of the giggles? What an embarrassment; it made the slug-belching look cute. Now that was fine by me. > Neville -- I agree with the many others who found the most poignant scene in the book to be the one with the wrapper. For me, though, what made the scene was the juxtaposition of Gran's rather babyish treatment of her daughter-in-law and Neville's natural "Thanks, mum." Yes, I picked that up, too. In fact, Neville's keeping the wrapper can be read in two ways. The first is that Neville is so emotionally overwrought by his mother's state that he can't bear to let go of the wrapper, because it's sort of all he's got left to cling on to of her. The second (which I prefer), is that he shows respect for her humanity by accepting what she gives him in a serious spirit. He is affirming, despite his gran, that her actions count, because they are her actions and she is still his mother. This is a much more mature reaction, IMO. David From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 23:25:04 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 23:25:04 -0000 Subject: Why did Lily marry James ? / Snapes other worst memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66601 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davydarmstrong" wrote: > Lily married the arrogant James because she fell in love with James. > > Because she drank the love potion that Snape prepared to make Lily > fall in love with him (Snape). > There are several ways this could have happened: > 1) by accident, she drank the potion (in her butterbeer?) and saw > James before Snape, or the potion was prepared with one of James's > hairs instead of one of Snapes > 2) deliberately, James knew that Snape had prepared this potion (and > why) and stole it from Snape and administered it to Lily because he > wanted Lily to go out with him > > This would be one of Snapes other 'worst memories' that he didn't > want Harry to come across. So, Snape was planning to use deception to score a woman, and James takes it from him? You know what Muggles call "a Love Potion"? A "date rape drug." Nice to see you are equal opportunity and have made Snape AND James rapists. Darrin -- Isn't it just a teensy-weensy bit possible that James grew up? From vanessa.monaghan at health.gov.au Tue Jul 1 23:31:05 2003 From: vanessa.monaghan at health.gov.au (lily_paige_delaney) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 23:31:05 -0000 Subject: OoP: It was Snape! (was: Kreacher's concoction?) In-Reply-To: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30B022@msgmsp16.norwest.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66602 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jennifer.r.junker at w... wrote: > > Hedge2staxy: > > What if, similar to the theory that Neville's plant might have led > some to behave with too much bravey, Sirius really was under the > influence of some sort of potion that was given to him by Kreacher > or, perhaps, put in a place where Sirius would accidentally ingest > it ( maybe in a bottle of the liquor Sirius was drinking ). > > This raises the question of whether Kreacher can make or obtain such > a potion. Also, could Kreacher disobey his master so completely as > to essentially poison him? I don't think he could do that so > directly. I do believe, though, that Kreacher could purposefully > place a potion so that Sirius unwittingly befuddles himself. > > Me (Jennifer) > > YES! I had the same thought when reading the book- and was actually puzzled > when this never became part of the story! Why else have the snippet about a > draught that is able to produce "hot-headedness and recklessness?" > > The point about Kreacher- and his ability to harm his "master" is well > taken, however. It it possible for another family member to give orders to > Kreacher that he would have to obey? The Malfoys (and thus the Death Eaters) > know Sirius is in London. Has someone gotten to Kreacher? > > Jennifer I raised this a few days ago and IMO it was Snape who brewed the potion and gave it to Kreacher when he visited! Who else had it in for Sirius? Talk about motive. LPD From vanessa.monaghan at health.gov.au Tue Jul 1 23:40:29 2003 From: vanessa.monaghan at health.gov.au (lily_paige_delaney) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 23:40:29 -0000 Subject: OOP: Luna! The new Hermione?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66603 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davydarmstrong" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brooke" > wrote: > > In the first four books I always felt like Hermione was JKR's > > surrogate character in most situations. Now, after reading OOP, I > > see some very interesting things about Luna that make me think that > > JKR may be transferring herself vicariously from Hermione to Luna. > > > > I think I read somewhere that JKR said Luna is sort of the anti- Hermoine! LPD From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 23:47:35 2003 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 23:47:35 -0000 Subject: OOP: FILK (Spoiler Title) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66604 x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x JUST DON'T CALL ME NYMPHADORA to the tune of "Don't Cry For Me Argentina" from EVITA Dedicated to Katinka because she gave me the idea (The Scene: Tonks is upstairs helping Harry pack.) Tonks: Hey! Wotcher, Harry! Don't think I'm strange As I try to explain how I change With a natural-born talent... Met-a-morph-a-gus You don't believe me? All you see now is just one of the guard You'll soon see me screw up my face As though I am thinking too hard I like to make it happen, I like to change. Couldn't stay all my life with brown hair Since I'm born with this talent to change with the wind So I chose violet But I think that it makes my face look rather peak It takes just a moment or two... Now, look ? it's bubble-gum pink! Just don't call me Nymphadora My fool of a mother named me Just use my surname It's Tonks, so simple Bet you wish you could Hide scars and pimples As for the Dursley's They search in vain For the Lawn Competition Awards >From a letter I faked and sent through Muggle post A grand illusion And just the solution We needed tonight To get them all out of the house Now let's get you ready to ride! Just don't call me Nymphadora `cause Tonks suits me so much better Wand in your pocket? Both buttocks on still? Glad Mad Eye's socket Is newly refilled... (She waves her wand and quickly packs Harry's trunk) Is that everything? At least it's in -- I just threw it all in pell-mell It's not very neat; I never got the hang of those householdy spells! ~Lilac~ From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 23:48:39 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 23:48:39 -0000 Subject: Tear-Jerking Moments in the Series -- Some OoP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66605 Since the Babes and Skanks List came off so well (and RachelBeth is currently working on a Hunks and Gits list using the same format, assisted by the modest humor talents of yours truly and then RachelBeth and I have a surprise planned after that) I thought I'd keep the lists going. I was thinking about all five books and which moments brought a lump to the throat and a tear to the eye of a big macho man like me and started wondering if others felt the same. Here's mine, and Sirius' death isn't on there. Maybe I'm still in shock. Warning: There are references to the films in here, because I confess to being a simple, simple man who is affected emotionally by visual images. * SS/PS: Neville gets the points to put Gryffindor over the top. I confess to a touch of movie poisoning here, as the young man playing Neville played the shock very well, but even the first time I read SS, this got to me. I'm a sucker for a kid who hasn't done anything right being the hero at the end. Gets me every time. * CoS: You Solved It! You Solved It! The film ruined this moment, but just the image of Hermione racing to the boys, giving them the highest praise that she, as a 12-year-old girl, knows how to give at the time, touches me. * PoA: Harry finally accepts Sirius as an innocent man. The "you fly as well as your father ever did" gets me every time too. I've been dreaming about how Gary Oldman is going to deliver that line. * GoF: Harry nearly breaks down completely on Molly's shoulder. I've been dogging Molly really bad lately, but it's mainly because I remember the woman who just seemed so perfect in this scene. Darrin -- Gawrsh. Anyone got any tissue? From Joanne0012 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 23:56:13 2003 From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 23:56:13 -0000 Subject: Use of "said" (was Re: OOP: Disappointing) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.20030701190412.05a72e28@pop.uky.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66606 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Stacy Forsythe wrote: > quoth joann0012: > > >Recommending the overuse of "said" in lieu of the many useulf and > >fundamental alternatives so that the book is "easier to read," especially > >for a > >12-year-old, reminds me of the rationale that Levine, the editor at > >Scholatsic, > >used when Bowdlerizing the title and contents of HP and the Philosopher's > >Stone. > > > I've actually read a number of writing/style manuals lately (I do volunteer > editing for a small publisher in my city) in which the use of "said" almost > all the time is recommended over the more flowery alternatives. I know, I > thought the opposite as well, but the rationale is that "said" is an > invisible word that the reader's mind will just skip, whereas the more > specific verbs can serve as distractions from the overall reading > experience. The manuals didn't say not to use such words at all, but > definitely recommended doing so sparingly, and falling back on "said" far > more often than not. > > An observation, for what it's worth. > > > Stacy Forsythe > deadstop at w... Alas, style manuals are like child-rearing manuals -- you can find one to support almost any strategy or technique. In my 20 years of freelance writing and editing, I've come across every permutation; that's why I couched my critique as an opinion. It's true that stretching for alternatives is distracting when one is simply reporting dialog, but I was particularly objecting to the said /adverb construction when there was a corresponding handy verb. From Lynx412 at aol.com Wed Jul 2 00:01:26 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 20:01:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP Molly's Maiden Name Message-ID: <171.20db0491.2c337ad6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66607 I've had an odd thought on this...given the interaction between Lupin and Molly, I wonder if she might be *his* sister. Nowhere does it say that Remus was an only child. That would make her Molly Lupin, leaving only the question what is Molly a nickname for? Cheryl the Lynx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 00:05:57 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:05:57 -0000 Subject: OOP: It is Snape's fault!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66608 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > Snuffles, > > > > The main point, though I think was to give Harry a reality check. All he has ever heard of his father have been stellar things. As I've said before, though. If Snape was setting up some kind of object lesson to Harry, you have to question the accuracy of the entire scene. Snape would have picked the beginning and ending that most favored his point, and, if it's possible to edit a Penseive, he would have done that too. > > I personally believe the memories were real and never meant for Harry to be > seen. > Darrin > -- Of course, I probably wouldn't have been able to resist, either. ANOTHER VIEW, FOR WHAT ITS WORTH: I agree in that Snape did not leave the pesieve out on purpose for Harry. The Occulmancy lessons were supposed to be secret. So when Draco shows up, Snape rushes him out of the room so Draco will not become suspicious. I dont think Harry had his caldron on him..... Fran From triner918 at aol.com Wed Jul 2 00:08:18 2003 From: triner918 at aol.com (Trina) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:08:18 -0000 Subject: OoP: A Few Observations Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66609 Spoiler: W H E N C A N W E Q U I T ? Did anyone else notice that before Harry had a Voldy-induced dream he always felt sick to his stomach? It was mentioned several times-- prior to his Arthur Weasley dream, prior to the Sirius dream, and other places,(the Rookwood incident, maybe?) although I can't recall them off the top of my head. I don't think he ever put the two together, though. I know the boy had a lot on his mind, but Hello! Clue something is up! Also, did anyone else notice that Mars was unusually bright in the first Firenze-led Divination class? Flashback to Book One! Trina, who does't subscribe to the Snape as Vamp theory, as he would have burst into flames before James could show everyone his grey undies, thus rendering the whole Pensieve scene moot. From kemp at arcom.com.au Wed Jul 2 00:11:21 2003 From: kemp at arcom.com.au (pickle_jimmy) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:11:21 -0000 Subject: OOP: It is Snape's fault!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66610 Maria Ribera wrote: > OK, so far i have been reading the different sides defending both Harry > and Snape. I agree with those that say that Harry was not very polite > nor respectful looking into Snape's memories, and i also agree with > those who say that Snape should be the adult of the two and behave > accordingly, resuming the Occlumancy lessons with Harry. > > But my point is: Snape should never have removed his memories in front > of Harry! Please! If you have something you want to hide, why hide it > in front of other people and let them see where you are hiding it! > Sorry for the abuse of the exclamation marks, but i find it a bit silly > for an adult not to know that a teenager's curiosity will be stronger > than his or her good conscience. It would have been more logical if > Snape had put his memories into the pensieve before 6 o'clock, before > Harry arrives in his office, then put the pensieve away and then > welcome Harry for his class, and the same at the end, wait for Harry to > leave before getting those memories back. So yes, Harry did something > very wrong, but i think in a way Snape provoked him. > > That's my point. Any thoughts? > I read through the rest of this thread, and unless I missed it, foung one point lacking. What evidence do we have that Snape knew that Harry knew what a pensieve was or how it worked? If we are to assume (and I am not saying he didn't) that Snape either provoked Harry to look at his memory by showing Harry that he'd removed it and also where he'd put it; or that Snape was "stupid" to try and hide his memory by doing it in front of Harry; we have to also say Snape knew Harry knew what a pensieve was. If you walked into a room (having no pre-pensieve knowledge) and saw Snape put his wand to his temple and pull out silvery stuff and stick it in a bowl, you'd probably think that it had something to do with the fact that he had very greasy hair. If Snape was not aware of Harry's pre-pensieve knowledge/experience, why would he worry that Harry had seen him use it? Or think that Harry would know how to retrieve his memories from it? My question is: beside the "James being mean" memory, what were the other two memories that Snape removes that we dont see?? I'm sure they are much more interesting Pickle Jimmy From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Jul 2 00:16:42 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:16:42 -0000 Subject: OoP: Has Anyone Seen Redeemable Draco??? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66611 S P O I L E R S P A C E I just thought I'd throw out the question for all you Draco fans out there. Is there more evidence in OoP for "Redeemable Draco"? Personally, I've never liked Draco. The only way that I thought he could turn into one of the good guys would be if he, for some reason, examined the kind of stuff he's learned all his life as a good Malfoy and decide that maybe what Daddy Lucius was teaching him was wrong. I'm in the midst of my second read of the book. A much slower and careful read, so I'm picking up a lot more details than the first time when I was roaring though it like a tsunami. Anyway, while I know I've only covered some of Draco's scenes, he strikes me as one of the characters that has had little, if any, character development. If anything, he strikes me as becoming even more of a stock character. But, perhaps the Draco fans should be the ones to comment. Redeemable? Dead sexy? We've seen this act before? Junior DE? What's the verdict? Marianne From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 00:27:33 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:27:33 -0000 Subject: Scary Thought In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66612 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Simon Taplin" > wrote: > > Here's a scacry though. From the different books, we have found out > that > > Apparating is not east. Percy failed before getting his license but > the > > twins managed on their first time. And that many wizards/witches > won't > > apparate becos its difficult/dangerous. > > > > Now can anybody see Neville doig well with apparating or will he be > visiting > > the local wizard hospital for unspecified injuries :> > > I am not sure right now, but I think it was Charlie, who failed the > first time, not Percy. > > And Neville has still more than a year time. We have to see how he > will progress. Considering how he developped in OOTP, I think there > is very well a possibility that he will do well in Apparate. > > Hickengruendler Comment: I think Neville will indeed be able to apparate. Lookat how fast he learned the spells when the DA's met. I think he has learned that if you practice and really try you can do it! Also once he gets a new wand, he will do much better! I think Mr Olivander said the wand choosed you , you do not choose the wand. And on a sappy note, I hope he comes back to Hogwarts next year a few pounds lighter and a bit buffed. Some kids take longer to develope than others. I know I did. Hated it when I was a teenager but love it now as I dont look my age. :o) fran From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 00:29:57 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:29:57 -0000 Subject: OOP: Houses of MWPP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66613 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "joanne0012" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "abhamghp" > wrote: > > Has there been any definite mention in canon of what houses James, > > Sirius, Lupin, and Wormtail were in? Don't have books with me, but > > I'm pretty sure that the only mention was in OOP, when Harry saw > > James fooling around with the snitch and assumed he was a > > Gryffindor. I'm leaning toward all four of them being in > > Slytherin. > > April > > In an interview a couple of years ago, sombody asked JKR what position > James held when he played Quidditch for Gryffindor, and JKR named a > position (Seeker, I believe) but did not correct the assumption that he'd been > in Gryffindor. Comment: If you go back to the first book, Hermione shows Harry a quidditch cup that Gryffindor won...James was the seeker! Fran From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Jul 2 00:33:47 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 01:33:47 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Houses of MWPP References: Message-ID: <3F02286B.000003.66673@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 66614 Fran said - If you go back to the first book, Hermione shows Harry a quidditch cup that Gryffindor won...James was the seeker! me - No she doesn't - that's what happens in the film not the book. There's no mention in the books of which position James played. JKR said in an interview he was a Chaser. K From lunalarea at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 23:32:47 2003 From: lunalarea at hotmail.com (Verin Haley) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 23:32:47 -0000 Subject: OOP-Harry & Unforgivables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66615 Spoiler space > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMHO, even if Harry or someone else was able to use AK successfully against Voldemort (which I doubt because we have seen that one can avoid it through prompt apparation a la DD), that would not _vanquish_ the Dark Lord forever. The incident surrounding Harry's scar demonstrates that physical death is not enough to rid the world of Voldemort. Harry will have to do something more profound and far more powerful to ensure not only the physical, but also the spritual destruction of Voldemort First point: avoidance via apparation only works if you can apparate in time. If it worked in every situation, there would be a lot fewer deaths from AK. If Harry hits Voldemort from behind when Voldemort doesn't know he's there or if Harry hits him from a range close enough that the spell reaches Voldemort before he can react to the spell being cast and apparate, then the spell would kill him. Second point: the incident surrounding Harry's scar does not *necessarily* indicate that if Voldemort's hit with AK, he won't completely die. Voldemort was hit by the *backlash* of the spell, not the spell itself. We don't know what would happen if he was hit directly with AK. Also consider *when* the attack occured: Halloween, or Samhain. According to celtic mythology, that's the time when the dead return to visit their kin and the doors between this world and the Otherworld are open. My opinion? AK on January 3rd would work just fine. But I'd find some way to keep his soul securely in his body when he died just to be on the safe side. -Verin From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 00:36:44 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:36:44 -0000 Subject: Tear-Jerking Moments in the Series -- Some OoP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66616 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > Since the Babes and Skanks List came off so well (and RachelBeth is > currently working on a Hunks and Gits list using the same format, > assisted by the modest humor talents of yours truly and then > RachelBeth and I have a surprise planned after that) I thought I'd > keep the lists going. > > I was thinking about all five books and which moments brought a lump > to the throat and a tear to the eye of a big macho man like me and > started wondering if others felt the same. > > Here's mine, and Sirius' death isn't on there. Maybe I'm still in > shock. > > Warning: There are references to the films in here, because I confess > to being a simple, simple man who is affected emotionally by visual > images. > > * SS/PS: Neville gets the points to put Gryffindor over the top. I > confess to a touch of movie poisoning here, as the young man playing > Neville played the shock very well, but even the first time I read > SS, this got to me. I'm a sucker for a kid who hasn't done anything > right being the hero at the end. Gets me every time. > > * CoS: You Solved It! You Solved It! The film ruined this moment, but > just the image of Hermione racing to the boys, giving them the > highest praise that she, as a 12-year-old girl, knows how to give at > the time, touches me. > > * PoA: Harry finally accepts Sirius as an innocent man. The "you fly > as well as your father ever did" gets me every time too. I've been > dreaming about how Gary Oldman is going to deliver that line. > > * GoF: Harry nearly breaks down completely on Molly's shoulder. I've > been dogging Molly really bad lately, but it's mainly because I > remember the woman who just seemed so perfect in this scene. > > Darrin > -- Gawrsh. Anyone got any tissue? I'LL ADD: SS:When Hagrid comes to take Harry to Hogwarts and he gives him his first birthday cake. Also when Harry is taken away from all the mistreatment. My heart just burst. GOF: When Cedric's ghost asked Harry to take his body back. I have more, just cant think of them at moment.....too many furniture polish fumes! Fran From rasster477 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 23:43:30 2003 From: rasster477 at yahoo.com (rasster477) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 23:43:30 -0000 Subject: OoP to the other four books Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66617 DO NOT READ THIS IF YOU HAVE NOT READ BOOK 5 AS IT MAY SPOIL IT FOR YOU. I thought that this was a good book, as the HP books always are. I just thought that it needed a little bit more action as we're coming ever so closer to the end of the series. Not to mention that the last HP book (#4) had so much action(i.e. the triwizard cup, big battle with just harry against Voldemort and death eaters). I just thought that this one should have had a little more action that Harry was included in. Really, if you think about it, Harry was banned from quidditch after the first game, and he didn't even get to be in the fight against Voldemort. Dumbledore fought Voldemort while Harry was held back by a statue. But the book was really good. I thought it was a lot different than the other books, and like the review that I read from someone else, I thought it seemed somewhat more realistic. From bard7696 at aol.com Wed Jul 2 00:42:53 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:42:53 -0000 Subject: OoP: Re: Redeemable Draco??? No, How about Punching Bag!Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66618 Stop Perusing Our Internet! Look, Everyone READ THE BOOK! > I'm in the midst of my second read of the book. A much slower and > careful read, so I'm picking up a lot more details than the first > time when I was roaring though it like a tsunami. Anyway, while I > know I've only covered some of Draco's scenes, he strikes me as one > of the characters that has had little, if any, character > development. If anything, he strikes me as becoming even more of a > stock character. But, perhaps the Draco fans should be the ones to > comment. Redeemable? Dead sexy? We've seen this act before? > Junior DE? > > What's the verdict? Whichever way Draco is going to go, I want him to stop being such a punching bag. I prefer EvilerThanLuciusEverDreamedOfBeing!Draco, but I'll even accept Redeemed!Draco at this point, so long as he stops being such a wuss. He loses - again - at Quidditch to Harry. He makes up a taunt that gets to Ron at first, but Ron overcomes that. He manages to capture Harry coming out of a DA meeting, but big deal, we've seen Draco do that before. (way back in SS/PS.) Then, at the end, he once again brings three guys to attack Harry and finds himself hexed into humilation. Note: I don't consider what happens to Draco at the end of OoP an unfair fight. If you take three guys to attack one guy, don't whine when that one guy whistles and 10 more show up. Ditto for GoF, when, the numbers are three on three, but Draco's got Crabbe and Goyle in what is shaping up to be a fistfight against Hermione and Ron. In other words, don't bring a knife to a gunfight! And don't whine about getting bullied if in fact you are a bully. (Actually, this is the strongest evidence yet for a Good!Slyth. If all Slyth were bad, one would think Draco's posse would be bigger. Perhaps the Ambitious Slyths are tired of backing a losing horse.) But anyway, Draco is bordering on pointless for me. Harry flat-out tells Snape he's going to curse Draco and Snape, perhaps impressed by Harry's audacity in spite of himself, takes away 10 points??? Sheesh, even his head of house doesn't respect Draco. Redeemable. Good. Bad. Worse. Worst yet. Whatever. Just pick one and give the kid some meat on his scrawny bones. Darrin -- I love the 80s Moment: "I was happy for Toni Basil, but if I heard 'Mickey' one more time, I was going to be in the clocktower with pantyhose on my head." From melclaros at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 00:49:34 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:49:34 -0000 Subject: OoP: What Snape is really doing out there... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66619 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Gino LV.Ledesma > > I agree Snape didn't act as how a ... "grown up should have acted," > which leads me to believe that there's _really_ more to it than just > his humiliation in the past. Something else (which may run deeper) may > have caused a far more "traumatic" (or psychologically hurting) effect, > and this he has not yet come to terms with. Its pretty much obvious he > didn't like James Potter, so it could also be possible that, aside from > "backing out of the werewolf prank", James may have done something else > in the past to Snape which the latter didn't expect. > > Of course... All these are just jumbled guesses. :) > > Reading all these posts questioning whether or not this particular memory is really Snape's WORST--and why--as "in was there more?" coupled with a recent conversation with a latercomer to the potterverse who is currently reading book three, a thought occurs. I wonder if this being his worse memory--certainly he feared Harry finding out about it--had anything to do with his high-tailing it out of the staff room in PoA when Lupin showed up for the Boggart lesson. Melpomene From starropal at hotmail.com Wed Jul 2 00:50:21 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 19:50:21 -0500 Subject: OoP-FILK: Last One Standing Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66620 This is my second FILK, its sort of angsty, oh well. I tried to find a midi but couldn't, too bad cause its an awesome song. I submit for the approval of the HP society (anyone remember that show... anyone?)- Dedicated to the _Harry Needs a Hug After OotP_ fans. To the tune of Last Beautiful Girl by Matchbox Twenty from the Mad Season album.... Last One Standing (FILK by Star Opal) I saw you go through Helplessly I watched you fall Always the way Everyone seems to leave Can't bring you back Now every fool in town Believes what I said I can't replace All those wasted times The knowledge of the mirror - can't help thinkin' Maybe if I would have just opened the stupid present Where would you be A thousand lost chances And the promises of a family you gave me Only now sinking in You won't be the first - Marauder dead You won't be the last - Friend to leave me Bellatrix Lestrange - I won't forget Even if I'm the last one standing in the world So tell me Dumbledore How you're sorry about the way This all went down - you needed to "protect" me You needed to keep him "safe" Same for me too Kept me from the truth, like in a prison, I believed in you totally Thought you would solve it all Losses I have, will sustain, murder its destiny Here's what I'm feeling He wasn't the first - Marauder dead He wasn't the last - Friend sacrificed Damn you Voldemort - I won't forget Even if I'm the last one standing in the world Last one standing in the world Its begun now - I'll go on without Because I'm everyone's last hope Seems all the time - They die for me Everyone's last hope Everyone's last hope I saw you go through Like Cedric suddenly gone Dark Lord used me I just want it to end All be over He wasn't the first - marauder dead He wasn't the last - Friend sacrificed Damn you Voldemort - I won't forget Even if I'm the last one standing... He wasn't the first - marauder dead He wasn't the last - Friend sacrificed Damn you Voldemort - I won't forget Even if I'm the last one standing in the world _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From linlou43 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 00:50:37 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:50:37 -0000 Subject: OOP: Grimmauld Place/In Defense of Harry and Molly Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66621 I have been lurking for a few days due to the sheer volume of posts. I have since given up on trying to read everything and am only reading the last 40 or so since the last time I had been on the list, which is still every evening but I would have to be on all day at work to keep up and that simply isn't possible. ( I also switched to webview to save room in my e-mail box for messages from my mother.) That said, I do have a few comments on recent threads and I hope I am not repeating anyone else's comeents but here goes. S P O I L E R S P A C E greatlit2003 wrote: > Was Sirius's mother born into the Black >family? Her portrait kept referring to 12 Grimmauld Place as 'the > house of my fathers'. If she was born a Black, why does Sirius have > her last name and not his father's? Me(Linda): I actually wonder if 12 Grimmauld Place belonged to the Black family in the first place. Could it be that Sirius's mother was the last of another line of pureblood wizards and once married to Black they moved into *her* ancesteral home? The only names on the tapestry that we are given surnames for are Belatrix, Narcissa, the Malfoys and the surname of Tonk's muggle father. We really don't know anything about *Mommy dearest's* family at all. If she is the last of her family, it would explain her maniacal drive to keep the family name of her husband pure. It would be the only name she has left. Izaskun wrote: > when Harry meets Dudley > before the Dementor's attack. He really wants his cousin to give him an > excuse to fight him, to use his magic wand against him, he's so angry and > frustrated that he feels the only thing that would help him is jinxing > Dudley, and had the Dementor's not appeared I'm not so sure he wouldn't have > cursed Big D. He would have taken advantadge of his powers, his magical > ability against a poor muggle, and yes I'm talking about Dudley, he can be > whatever you want, but he's still totally powerless against a wizard, Harry > is more powerful and he knows it, so it really worried me when I read it. > He's not aware of the true extent of his powers, or maybe he is (and that's > even more scaring) and yet he's willing to use these powers against weaker > people. Me again: I really don't think Harry would have attacked Dudley. When thinking about the possible fight with D's gang, he only considers using the wand if one of the boys starts to hit him. He is in effect half wishing for something he doesn't really want to happen (IMO). When D and his friends don't notice Harry he resists the urge to call after them. He even reminds himself that he must not use magic because he does not want to risk expulsion. As far as Harry threatening Dudley with the wand, Harry doesn't bring it up, Dudley does. He taunts him about thinking he's a "big man carrying that thing". Only then does Harry pull out his wand. That taunt probably saved both Harry and Dudley's lives. I also wanted to comment on the thread involving Molly's shortcomings. Over the last few months I have seen quite a few posts theorizing the death of a Weasley child during the first war. In the recent thread someone(sorry I tried to find it) mentioned that this could account for Molly's overprotective behavior. I don't discount this idea; indeed I find it highly plausible. However, IMO, it wouldn't be necessary. Isn't the fact that she lived through the terror of Voldemort's rise to power with seven young children enough? Especially since her husband, who I'm sure was even known then as a muggle lover, worked at the ministry? She probably felt like her entire family was a target the entire time VOldemort was in power. That kind of daily fear can change the way you live the rest of your life. just my two knuts- Linda From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Wed Jul 2 00:51:59 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 17:51:59 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tear-Jerking Moments in the Series -- Some OoP Message-ID: <410-2200373205159684@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 66622 Great thread to start, Darrin! So, I started thinking about my tear-jerking moments from the first four books, and I realise that I don't think there ARE any! I don't remember actually crying while reading any of the books before OoP. I've shouted and cheered at things in the other books, but no actual tears until OoP. That makes me sound a bit cold-hearted, doesn't it? Funny thing is that I'm *not*! I usually *do* cry at things. Heck, I cried the first time I saw "Muppets Take Manhattan," for Pete's sake! So I don't know what's up with that. In any case, my list is all from the most recent book: 1. Neville tucking the Droobles gum wrapper into his pocket. Wow. Several things in play here, and I can read even more into it on retrospection. But my initial reactions: Neville really loves his mum and the sensitivity he shows toward her is just stunning;Neville's mum really loves him - and I'm now convinced that she *is* aware of who he is, and probably much more than that as well. That Neville did it after Gran's less-than-sensitive comments made the moment just that much more poignant. 2. Molly and the Boggart - I was shaking along with her. I found JKR's description of the scene to be extremely moving, and as a Mum who fears for own child with Mollyesque fervor (not all the time of course - that would be scary - but in certain situations based on things that have happened in the past), I could really relate. Especially in light of what others have speculated: that Molly lost a child in VW1 and is living in terror for her family's safety. That fits really well for me with the way Molly is characterised thus far. 3. My most heart-wrenching moment was the scene in which Harry uses the extendable ear to eavesdrop on the conversation at Arthur's bedside and overhears Moody's comment, "there's something funny about the Potter kid, we all know that." That made me SO ANGRY at Moody I had to put the book down. After all Harry's been through it really hurt me to think of him listening to tMoody discuss him in those terms - as though he wasn't a person Moody knew, but just a "problem" related to his job as an auror. P*ssed me off good, that did. That was by far my most emotional moment in the series so far. And I must say I'm not particularly fond of Real!Moody after that, either (his threats to Vernon notwithstanding). You may have noticed that the death of Sirius didn't rate any tears from me, either, while reading - I just felt sick to my stomach for *hours*. Although a few days later I did burst into tears at the thought of his death once while driving. Ah - one more quick thing . . . Darrin wrote: "* PoA: Harry finally accepts Sirius as an innocent man. The "you fly as well as your father ever did" gets me every time too. I've been dreaming about how Gary Oldman is going to deliver that line." Now me (Wendy) again: Don't get your hopes up. I used to dream about hearing Alan Rickman say "Or maybe he's waiting to hear why you two didn't arrive on the school train." And we all know how *that* turned out. (FILCH????? ARGHHHHHHHHHH) . Wendy St John hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Who wonders what Darrin thought of her suggestion that Rodolphus Lestrange will be the one to prove his (Darrin's) theory about Snape trying to round up less-than-fanatical Death Eaters and return them to the fold - I never got a response to that post). From gishdaydream at hotmail.com Wed Jul 2 00:59:57 2003 From: gishdaydream at hotmail.com (gishstar1) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:59:57 -0000 Subject: OOP: Luna! The new Hermione?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66623 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lily_paige_delaney" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davydarmstrong" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brooke" > > wrote: > > > In the first four books I always felt like Hermione was JKR's > > > surrogate character in most situations. Now, after reading OOP, I > > > see some very interesting things about Luna that make me think > that > > > JKR may be transferring herself vicariously from Hermione to > Luna. > > > > > > > > I think I read somewhere that JKR said Luna is sort of the anti- > Hermoine! > > LPD I did enjoy reading about Luna. I always totally focused myself on her actions and what she would say and what direction she was looking in and trying to see if JKR was making us trying to notice anything that we would probably miss. However, I was thinking about Luna today... and I am a Smashing Pumpkins fan. I happen to know that Luna is means moon (as if we didn't or couldn't make that connection). But the Smashing Pumpkins named a song on one of their cd's "Luna" and that's what got me thinking about the character. Luna also deals with a goddess in an Eastern religion. I can't remember my research right off the top of my head but oh well... I was thinking about the name Luna, and thinking about moons... then it hit me that she tried to get us to guess about moons in PoA with Peeves calling Lupin "Loony". With some further stretching of the imagination I got to thinking that JKR wanted us (the readers) to make a connection. I'm making a connection between Luna and Lupin. Otherwise stating that Lupin is Luna's Dad. Now before everyone gets all hot under the collar. I'm not FOR SURE... it's an idea. She talked about her father, he's a wizard. I'm only making the connection based on the names of the characters. I'm pretty sure it isn't entirely correct. I do think that Luna and Lupin are somehow connected. I re-read that part when she talks about her mom dying due to a spell gone wrong. But nothing specific about her dad... so yeah... i'm probably wrong. But there's no sense in not thinking about it? Ari From conshydot at email.com Wed Jul 2 01:06:29 2003 From: conshydot at email.com (dasienko) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 01:06:29 -0000 Subject: OOP: Luna! The new Hermione?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66624 > I was thinking about the name Luna, and thinking about moons... then > it hit me that she tried to get us to guess about moons in PoA with > Peeves calling Lupin "Loony". With some further stretching of the > imagination I got to thinking that JKR wanted us (the readers) to > make a connection. I'm making a connection between Luna and Lupin. > Otherwise stating that Lupin is Luna's Dad. > Isn't Luna's father the publisher of "the Quibbler"? The difference between Luna and Hermione is that Herminone belie4ves only what she see or reads about in books. Luna beleives in the unseen. Didn't her gryffindor hats remind you of Neville's Gran's Vulture hats? From vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Wed Jul 2 01:07:25 2003 From: vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia=20Chrysshallie?=) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 13:07:25 +1200 (NZST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP: Sirius + Neville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030702010725.14902.qmail@web41201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66625 Ignacio (whammer11 at yahoo.com) writes: > * * * * * * * * spoiler stuff * * * * * * * Me (Vinnia): I think that proves 2 points: 1. Neville really trust Harry 2. How much Neville hates Voldemort and his DE. He does not care who they are going to save. He's willing to put his life on the line to save someone from Voldemort, even someone who he believes is a mass murderer. Harry says this Sirius need saving, so he's going to save him. I think even if Harry says they are going to rescue Draco Malfoy from Voldemort, Neville would still go, without asking any question. Just my thought. Vinnia http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From starropal at hotmail.com Wed Jul 2 01:15:50 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 20:15:50 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tear-Jerking Moments in the Series -- Some OoP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66626 Darrin, master of lists and band names, wrote: >I was thinking about all five books and which moments brought a lump >to the throat and a tear to the eye of a big macho man like me and >started wondering if others felt the same. When Harry says that he wants to go live with Sirius instead of the Dursleys... Then Lupin transforms and it all goes down hill from there. I was SO upset, I just wanted to stop reading right then - I didn't but, you know. Do angry tears count (okay I didn't boo hoo, but I was bleary eyed from frustration)? Aunt Marge! >_< I would've made her EXPLODE into tiny chunks! Believe it or not, I'm not a violent person but she tops my list of Most Hated Characters. This one's a second read through moment. When Harry's looking at the mirror of Erised, and you know his deepest desire is for a *real* family. Awwww. The whole of OotP made me feel like that. From beginning to end. Poor Harry, I was depressed through most of it. If its a good book I have stonge character empathy. You should have seen me reading the last chapters of The Scarlet Pimpernel, "Go Margerite! Go!" Star Opal Macho Man would make a great song title... Oh wait a minute..... _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Jul 2 01:22:52 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 01:22:52 -0000 Subject: Tear-Jerking Moments in the Series -- Some OoP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66627 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" > I was thinking about all five books and which moments brought a lump > to the throat and a tear to the eye of a big macho man like me and > started wondering if others felt the same. > > Here's mine, and Sirius' death isn't on there. Maybe I'm still in > shock. It didn't make me cry either, and I love him. It made me feel hollow for days afterward. I'll give you two from OoP: 1) Right after Sirius dies, Neville, who legs are wobbling uncontrollably, slides down the stone benches one by one to where Harry stands. And broken-nosed Neville says," Harry...I'b really sorry...Was dat man - was Sirius Black a - a friend of yours?" It was a very decent thing to do, in Neville's stumbly, bumbly way, to simply acknowledge Harry's pain and say he was sorry. And, now that I think about it, I believe Neville is the only character who says "I'm sorry." 2) Harry sitting and grieving by himself by the lake and finally getting up to return to the castle, wiping his face on his sleeve as he went. That description portrayed someone who seemed so alone and isolated at a time when he needs some support. It depressed me. Marianne From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 01:23:42 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 01:23:42 -0000 Subject: OOP: Grimmauld Place/In Defense of Harry and Molly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66628 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Linda" wrote: > > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > > greatlit2003 wrote: > > > Was Sirius's mother born into the Black > >family? Her portrait kept referring to 12 Grimmauld Place as 'the > > house of my fathers'. If she was born a Black, why does Sirius > have > > her last name and not his father's? > > Me(Linda): > > I actually wonder if 12 Grimmauld Place belonged to the Black > family in the first place. Could it be that Sirius's mother was the > last of another line of pureblood wizards and once married to Black > they moved into *her* ancesteral home? The only names on the > tapestry that we are given surnames for are Belatrix, Narcissa, the > Malfoys and the surname of Tonk's muggle father. We really don't > know anything about *Mommy dearest's* family at all. If she is the > last of her family, it would explain her maniacal drive to keep the > family name of her husband pure. It would be the only name she has > left. > > > > > Izaskun wrote: > > > when Harry meets Dudley > > before the Dementor's attack. He really wants his cousin to give > him an > > excuse to fight him, to use his magic wand against him, he's so > angry and > > frustrated that he feels the only thing that would help him is > jinxing > > Dudley, and had the Dementor's not appeared I'm not so sure he > wouldn't have > > cursed Big D. Me again: > > I really don't think Harry would have attacked Dudley. When > thinking about the possible fight with D's gang, he only considers > using the wand if one of the boys starts to hit him. He is in effect > half wishing for something he doesn't really want to happen (IMO). > When D and his friends don't notice Harry he resists the urge to > call after them. He even reminds himself that he must not use magic > because he does not want to risk expulsion. As far as Harry > threatening Dudley with the wand, Harry doesn't bring it up, Dudley > does. He taunts him about thinking he's a "big man carrying that > thing". Only then does Harry pull out his wand. That taunt probably > saved both Harry and Dudley's lives. > > > > I also wanted to comment on the thread involving Molly's > shortcomings. Over the last few months I have seen quite a few posts > theorizing the death of a Weasley child during the first war. In the > recent thread someone(sorry I tried to find it) mentioned that this > could account for Molly's overprotective behavior. I don't discount > this idea; indeed I find it highly plausible. However, IMO, it > wouldn't be necessary. Isn't the fact that she lived through the > terror of Voldemort's rise to power with seven young children > enough? Especially since her husband, who I'm sure was even known > then as a muggle lover, worked at the ministry? She probably felt > like her entire family was a target the entire time VOldemort was in > power. That kind of daily fear can change the way you live the rest > of your life. > > > just my two knuts- Linda AGREE WITIH LINDA: Ditto on Harry jinxing Dudley. As to Molly's over protective behavior, alot of mom's are over- protective....its a mom thing. If there had been a Weasley child killed in the first war, I think it would have come out. It's too important. Ron would have Harry about it. Fran From bard7696 at aol.com Wed Jul 2 01:25:52 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 01:25:52 -0000 Subject: Tear-Jerking Moments in the Series -- Some OoP In-Reply-To: <410-2200373205159684@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66629 Great Moments, Wendy! I guess I'll have to read OoP a few more times before certain, obscure moments become really emotional for me (about 3/4 through second read) For instance, the "You Solved It!" moment hasn't become really powerful for me until later. > "* PoA: Harry finally accepts Sirius as an innocent man. The "you fly > as well as your father ever did" gets me every time too. I've been > dreaming about how Gary Oldman is going to deliver that line." > > Now me (Wendy) again: > > Don't get your hopes up. I used to dream about hearing Alan Rickman say "Or maybe he's waiting to hear why you two didn't arrive on the school train." And we all know how *that* turned out. (FILCH????? ARGHHHHHHHHHH) I know. I know. I'm steeling myself for the worst. But, as PoA is still my favorite book and I love Oldman and Thewlis (but was hoping for Hugh Jackman), I'm still going to be hopeful. > Wendy St John > hebrideanblack at e... > (Who wonders what Darrin thought of her suggestion that Rodolphus Lestrange will be the one to prove his (Darrin's) theory about Snape trying to round up less-than-fanatical Death Eaters and return them to the fold - I never got a response to that post). Wha? I must have missed that one. That's a GREAT theory. That would rock. Bellatrix: Let's see, another day, who shall I kill today? Where's that worthless husband of mine? Rodolphus: (enters their bedroom): Trixieeeee... you got some 'splaining to do! Darrin - I love the 80s moment: "We were like the last house in Jersey to get cable. We felt Amish." -- From meboriqua at aol.com Wed Jul 2 01:31:27 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 01:31:27 -0000 Subject: Hunks & Horklumps in Harry Potter! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66630 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Star Opal" wrote: > 18-Barty Crouch-Patricide Hunk > > 19-Percy Weasley-Bad To His Mother Horklump> So, Barty Crouch Jr. gets to be a hunk for murdering his father, but Percy is a horklump for being bad to his mother? Call me crazy, but I'd rather not see Crouch Jr. as a hunk in any way, shape or form. --jenny from ravenclaw, who aplogizes for the short post ********************************************************** From starropal at hotmail.com Wed Jul 2 01:33:53 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 20:33:53 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tear-Jerking Moments in the Series -- Some OoP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66631 Marianne wrote: >2) Harry sitting and grieving by himself by the lake and finally >getting up to return to the castle, wiping his face on his sleeve as >he went. That description portrayed someone who seemed so alone and >isolated at a time when he needs some support. It depressed me. You know, for one insane moment, I thought he was going to throw himself in the lake. I forgot about there still being two other books and was sitting there saying out loud (good thing I was alone at the time) "No, Harry! Don't do it Harry!" Unlike the time I read the Pit and the Pendulum. Hey wanna know how to clear your section of the waiting room? *sigh* I'm so easily pulled into a story. Star Opal _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Wed Jul 2 01:37:20 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 21:37:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tear-Jerking Moments in the Series -- Some OoP Message-ID: <14a.211bc8f2.2c339150@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66632 In a message dated 7/1/2003 9:24:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, Zarleycat at aol.com writes: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" > I was > thinking about all five books and which moments brought a lump > > to the throat and a tear to the eye of a big macho man like me and > > started wondering if others felt the same. > > > One that I haven't seen that didn't actually make me cry, but had me *really* close was when Bellatrix and Lucius have Harry and Neville. Neville's reaction to Bellatrix ("Why, I have had the pleasure of meeting your parents, boy...." "I DOE YOU HAB!" roared Neville) during this whole scene made my heart just want to break, it was so agonizing. We spend the whole series looking at Harry's reflections on what he lost through LV, but now we see Neville facing the woman who ruined *his* life and family, and to think now that Neville has felt what his parents felt as they were tortured to insanity... :::sniffle::: ~Jenny Who will never, ever forgive Molly for taunting Sirius about Azkaban, no matter who's best interests she had in mind. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 2 01:40:45 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 01:40:45 -0000 Subject: OOP: Snape, the Pensieve, and "Perseus"+Tonks and Auror!Potters In-Reply-To: <15010935265.20030701162449@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66633 ********************************************************************* Dave wrote:I think the "Perseus Evans" theory can be salvaged, but Lily clearly was not his "Andromeda"; and now I'm wondering if *Andromeda* (Tonks' mum) was his "Andromeda"...? So his relationship with Lily was probably unknown to both of them, for whatever reason. And now let's see if we can figure out why not! (Separated at birth? Son of Mr. Evans from a previous marriage? Mr. Evans actually Snape's squib uncle? &c., &c.) And of course speculate on what his heroic connection with Andromeda might have been... Kirstini: Ooh, now then. Snape as Tonks' real father? Because she could Morph away the grease and the hooked nose, so there doesn't have to be a genetic resemblance, and look: "...her nose swelled to a beak-like protuberance that resembled Snape's..." OoP, Bloomsbury, p81. She kept it in her repartee! I know this is all wildly non-canonical speculation. I will allow myself two further points, and then I'm done. I've just warmed to this idea. 1. JKR said we would find out about the teachers' home-lives, and we haven't. Not at all. Not even the merest whisper of a Mr McGonagall or a photo of a family of even tinier Flitwicks propped up on the Charms desk. So therefore the information must be being held back for some great, meatily satisfying plot explanation. There's got to be a love child in there somewhere... 2. The age thing is a problem. Auror training takes three years after Hogwarts, so newly qualified Tonks, assuming she didn't have a gap year, must be about 20-21 to Snape's 38. We are unlikely to get any teenage pregnancies in a relatively conservative* children's book series. But say we did - remember that one of the bastions of the dearly-missed Florence went as follows: Snape hates Sirius because Sirius was an arrogant bully who tried to kill him. But why does Sirius hate Snape with equal passion? One of the explanations for this was that Florence was Sirius' sister, and Snape had been the one snogging her. OoPs - Sirius doesn't have a sister. But - wouldn't his "favourite cousin" Andromeda do just as well? Especially if the greasy little git got her knocked up (thus causing her to run out and marry the first Muggle she bumps into? Didn't sound like much of a charmer, Tonks' dad)? I think she's about the right age: "He pointed to another burn mark between two names, Bellatrix and Narcissa." OoP, p105. I think this must be slightly wrong, because Bellatrix, as we know from Sirius's comment in GoF (the one that I've quoted in at least four posts this week)is a relative contemporary of MWPP+S. Not necessarily in their year - HRH associate with Ginny and Luna, who are younger - but probably no more than one year either way, to make it a proper "gang". Narcissa Malfoy *surely* can't be popping sprogs younger than Lily - now that we know Lucius' age I'm inclined to put her at round about the same. Sirius would presumbably have covered her in the Slytherin list if she was their contemporary. Therefore Bella is actually the youngest, and Andromeda comes in somewhere in the middle - the family tree should read Narcissa, burn, Bellatrix. Andromeda could conceivably have shared a dormitory with Lily Evans. It is *possible*. And it would be a lovely JK irony, Tonks insisting on being known by a name that wasn't really hers. With the "Perseus Evans" thing, that would make Tonks Harry's cousin, or a relative of some sort. Ah. Family. Just when you thought all hope was gone. Ooh - also, when it comes to that big "what did the Potters do" question, I think we can rule out Aurors, can't we. They *died* when three years out of Hogwarts. Kirstini, off to design some "Nymphadora Snape" t-shirts to flog at the Souvenir Shack. Oh, except then it would be "Nymphadora Evans". Hmm. Maybe more than one lovechild per series of books is overdoing it. *Compared to someone like Melvin Burgess, who doesn't just stop at teen pregnancies. From kkearney at students.miami.edu Wed Jul 2 01:41:38 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 01:41:38 -0000 Subject: Why did Lily marry James ? / Snapes other worst memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66634 davydarmstrong wrote: > > Because she drank the love potion ... And Darrin replied: > You know what Muggles call "a Love Potion"? A "date rape drug." > -- Isn't it just a teensy-weensy bit possible that James grew up? My turn: I don't think either of these scenarios make sense. For the first, I agree with Darrin. A love potion is a very creepy idea. I don't see a relationship based on something like that continuing happily, and the scant evidence we've been given thus far (photographs and recollections) shows that James and Lily were happy together. I also don't see the "James grew up" scenario as plausible. Yes, it is very possible that James did mature, lose his arrogance, and become a very likeable guy in the span of two years. But as of the end of their fifth year, Lily despised James. She copnsidered him on the same level as Mudblood-slinging-Snape. She said she would rather date the giant squid than James. If James did undergo some sort of reform, I feel it completely possible that Lily would stop hating him. Perhaps even tolerate his company. But enter into a serious relationship which led to marriage within a year or two? After all, Harry was born only two years after the two began dating. I just can't see Lily's dramatic change of heart being attributed to a gradual, natural change. Something big happenned. I have yet to decide exactly what that was, but I'm certain it was pivotal. :) (The Prank, possibly. I've posted before that I think James' horror at the pain he almost caused a close friend may have catalyzed the drastic personality change. But I remain unconvinced). This pivotal event, whatever it was, was enough to erase all previous dislike of James (except with Snape, of course), change Lily's mind about James, convince Dumbledore that James deserved to be Head Boy, etc. I have a vague theory that it had something to do with James' first defiance of Voldemort. I'll get back to you when I solidify that theory. - Corinth From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 01:44:10 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 01:44:10 -0000 Subject: OOP: Give OoP a chance! Same Song, Different Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66635 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dicentra spectabilis" wrote: > ...edited... > > OoP is not self-contained. ... OoP is the way it is because books > 5, 6, and 7 are three parts of one whole story arc. > > ...edited... > > Just don't blame OoP. > > --Dicentra bboy_mn: I guess I could title this post "Singing the Same Song But with Different Words". As I read Dicentra's excellent analysis of OOP, which I whole heartedly agree with, a few thoughts came to me, which really are just a different way of saying what she already said. In a sense, we have a SEVEN volume book comprised of TWO chapters. Chapter One is 'Harry and the Wizard World', and Chapter Two is 'Harry and Voldemort'. OOP represents the first few paragraphs of chapter two. In chapter one, which is comprised of volumes 1 through 4, Harry is entering the quaint wizard world and seeing all it's wonder, but all through chapter one (vol 1 - 4 in my 'chapter' analogy), the focus is narrowing until at the end (vol GoF) it narrows to a razor sharp pin point, and that 'pin point' is Voldemort. Now we really have started a whole new story. The wizaard world has expanded from the enchantingly quaint Diagon Alley, Hogwarts, The Burrow, and Hogsmeade, to a world much larger and far less child-like; the Ministy, the hospital, wizard's homes. We see wizards spread through the whole of London and probably the whole of Britain. Common muggle streets, just like your street, where wizards live in secret. To some extent this tells us that magic is all around us, permeating our everyday lives, and like everyday life, that magic is good and bad. Deviating slightly from my chapter analogy, by reading OOP, we have read the first few chapters of an exciting captivating book, then put it down and wonder why we felt unsatisfied. Why? Because we didn't read it all. I was satisfied with OoP, but at the same time I confess, other books in the series moved me more. Book 1 was endearing, book 3 was suspenseful, book 4 was moving, and book 2 while very enjoyable and satisfying, didn't move me as much as the others. Book 5 is in between, but I reserve full judgement until I have the whole story in front of me. Sadly, that is probably 3 years away. I know what I've said isn't anything new, but I think it is important that we realize that book 5 is really the beginning of a whole new story. Just a thought. bboy_mn From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 2 01:44:50 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 01:44:50 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Use OOP prefix and no spoilers in the header, please Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66636 Greetings from Hexquarters! Wah hay! Oh joy! It's finally here! The Phoenix has landed! And with it has landed a request from our listmembers. We held a public poll to determine the length of time the Spoiler rules should stay in operation. The majority request was for a two week post-OOP period. Until 23:59 British Summer Time Saturday July 5th, 2003, we would like members to continue to use the "OOP" prefix for any post to any of our lists that contains spoilers for OoP. Members should also check that headers do not contain spoilers before they post. Posts that break the header spoiler rule will be and are being deleted. The end of the spoiler period will be announced on-list. The definition of a spoiler is: anything in the book, any cover art, any cover blurb, any quotation from a news article or interview which refers to book, cover art or cover blurb. [Note: the following examples were deliberately written before publication of Order of the Phoenix. If there do turn out to be any real spoilers in here, it was a complete coincidence.] Subject headers should not, of course, contain spoilers themselves -- "OOP: Sirius Dies At Azkaban!" rather defeats the point of the OoP prefix. Remember also that the first line of your post appears on the Group Home Page under `Most recent messages', so treat that first line as if it were a subject header. For example, an appropriate subject header might be, "OOP: Harry, Sirius." Harry and Sirius are so interconnected in previous books that this isn't a spoiler. "OOP: Harry, Lupin" on the other hand, *would* be a spoiler, as those who haven't yet got hold of a copy don't know whether Lupin is in Book 5. "OOP: Lupin" would be better (as for all we know, you might be posting on why Lupin isn't in the book). Remember that a subject header which has *both* a chapter number and a subject is in itself a spoiler. 'OOP: Chapter 32 - Sirius' tells readers that Sirius turns up in Chapter 32. For a reader only on Chapter 7, where Harry is worried about his godfather, that's a spoiler. If you want to discuss a particular chapter, use chapter numbers *only*. 'OOP: Chapter 32' is fine. Please begin using "OOP" prefix on all of our lists -- especially the main list and OT-Chatter ? until and including July 5th. And remember, if you have any comments about any OoP release issues, holler at us at: hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com "The truth." Dumbledore sighed. "It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution." [PS/SS Chapter 17] Be like Dumbledore. Tell people as little as possible. ;-) We've counted down to June 21st! The Administration Team From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 2 01:48:34 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 01:48:34 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: OOP READ THIS FIRST - Frequently Asked Questions, most frequent answers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66637 For those most Frequently Asked OOP Questions - the most Frequent Answers. Feel free to disagree with them! So, you've decided to join the list after OoP. A good moment, you think. A new start. Maybe you used to lurk. Maybe you're new. Maybe you were on hiatus. Maybe you were here all along. And suddenly, there are 2000 posts staring at you in the face in the course of three days. How can anyone keep up? How can you know if your thoughts have been discussed to death? The answer is not easy, so (having kept up with the list for 12 straight hours before my brain started to leak out of my ears), I have composed a FAQ of OoP questions: Ministry of Magic, Department of Mysteries & The Black Veil ----------------------------------------------------------- ? How could a bunch of children walk through an official building at night? The DE probably cleared the way of obstacles so Harry would reach the prophecy. ? What's the deal with the Department of Mysteries? The department of mysteries, as the name indicates, contains sections for the mysteries of the world: time, love, death, the future, thoughts, the universe and who knows what else (it's a mystery :D ) ? What the deuce is the Black Veil? The Black Veil is a very common representation of death. To cross the Veil is a way of describing death. 'To go beyond the veil' is another common phrase. Thestrals --------- ? Why aren't they in Fantastic Beasts And Where To Find Them? They are there - look under Winged Horses (right at the end) ? Why can Neville see them? Neville explains he saw his Grandfather die ? Why hasn't Neville mentioned them before? Neville is very tight-mouthed. He probably has his reasons, but he's never been very open with Harry (or anyone else, AFAWK) ? Harry and the Thestrals: - Didn't Harry see his mother die? No - the list more or less agrees that, in this case, "see" refers to "understand" (like "this is so-and-so." "I see."). Harry was a baby and as such didn't understand what he saw. - Harry sees Quirrell die in PS. What gives? Harry loses consciousness at the end of the fight. THEN Dumbledore arrives and Voldemort flees, and only then Quirrell dies (the books are not the film!). By then, Harry is in no condition to see anything. And Harry has never reflected on that death, and thus has never "understood" it (see above) - Harry sees the carriages at the end of GoF, after seeing Cedric's death, but doesn't see the thestrals. Is it a Flint? Quite possibly not - Harry is still in shock at the time. He didn't accept and understand Cedric's death until later, and thus hadn't yet "seen" death. This is JKR's official explanation, as seen in her Royal Albert Hall interview. Other people on the list do think it's a FLINT, but the matter is debatable. House Championship ------------------ ?So, who won the House Championship? We don't know. We *do* know that the Inquisitorial Squad managed to drastically reduce or empty the points of all houses but Slytherin, and that McGonagall awards 240 points to Gryffindor at the end (which normally wouldn't be enough to win: in PS, Gryffindor needs 482 points to win). More points might have been awarded during the feast, which Harry doesn't attend, though. James ----- ? Was James an idiot? Maybe, or maybe not. Some point out that, as Sirius says, James is 15 in the pensieve scene. People change, particularly at the end of adolescence. Others maintain that Lily was right--he was as bad as Snape was, and probably worse. Still others feel that we shouldn't trust Snape's memory of events, or that one incident may not show the true James. ? How did he become Head Boy if he wasn't prefect? Not all prefects become Head Boys (since there are many more prefects than Head Boys) and, while prefects seem to be a responsibility-oriented position, Head Boy may be awarded to academical achievements (which fits with Percy, James and Tom). Or something may have happened between 15 and 17 which changed James's character noticeably. ? Why do people speak so highly of a bully? James wasn't always a 15 year old. Furthermore, he's dead - people tend to speak well of the dead. Beyond that, he *did* defy Voldemort 3 times, so he was a hero once he outgrew being a teenager. Marauders Map -------------- ? When did Harry get it back? It was in Crouch!Moody's possession in GoF! Dumbledore tends to give Harry back his things, even if they can be used for violating school rules. For example, he gave him back his invisibility cape in PS. And this is something very similar: an object that used to belong to his father. However it was done, it was off-page, but while it might have been better to show it as it happened, it is really a minor point. Pensieve ----------- .Did the Pensieve scene happen before or after the Prank? A. Most likely it was before the Prank. James was fifteen. In PoA, Snape says Sirius was sixteen when he tried to murder Snape. Q.Is the Pensieve objective? A. There's no consensus on this. Some list members have theorized that the Pensieve shows only Snape's subjective recollection of events. He couldn't have overheard what the Marauders were saying to each other, or seen what James was doodling when his nose was against his exam. Others maintain just as strongly that the events happened just as Harry saw them, since Sirius and Lupin both confirmed his account when he questioned them. They note that Harry was able to look around in Dumbledore's pensieve and see things that Dumbledore wouldn't have been able to see. They theorize that the pensieve is useful precisely because it opens an objective window on the past. Neville's Wand -------------- ? No wonder Neville was bad at magic! He had his father's wand, not one suited for him. Now that he'll have a proper wand, he'll surely become much more powerful! After all, Olivander said "You will never get such good results with another wizard's wand" Not necessarily. Ron had a non-suited wand in PS and CoS and a suitable wand in the rest and his magic didn't suddenly improve (ignoring the fact that during CoS his wand malfunctioned). Beyond that, according to canon, all Neville needs is "confidence". And indeed when he joins DA he gains confidence at such rate that in the end he's amongst the best in the class. OWLs ---- ? There are only 8 subjects you can take at the same time - how could Charlie, Percy and Bill get 12 OWLs each? It is possible that you get separate OWLs for the practical and the theory exam of each subject. The Prophecy ------------ ? What are those letters in the title of the prophecy? They are the initials of the prophet and the witness of the prophecy: Trelawney and Dumbledore. ? What does it mean? The most obvious meaning is that either Harry will kill Voldemort, or Voldemort will kill Harry. BUT The most obvious meanings tend to be Red Herrings in HP books. And of course traditionally the prophecy's meaning is hidden, and only really clear once the situation has happened. Thus, many listees have proposed their own interpretations. ? Could it be referring to Neville and not Harry? Could it be talking about both? Why did Voldemort choose Harry? It is clear that we will be discussing the prophecy for the years to come (probably until book 7). Several members have expressed the following opinions, but the debate is far from over. Yes, it could refer to Neville, or both (since the line about being born is repeated, slightly changed) and we have no idea why Voldemort chose Harry - maybe he was going to kill both, and Harry was the first he had access to (since it's logical that both were under Fidelius Charm). . Who was the person who overheard part of the Prophecy? Canon doesn't say. Some list members think it was Snape and it convinced him to change sides. Others note that Mundungus Fletcher was banned from the Hog's Head twenty years before, and this could be why he would have been thrown out four years later. Sirius & Harry -------------- ? Sirius and Harry have changed a lot! Are they Out Of Character? Depends who you ask, but being forced to stay in a house where everyone hates you and being stopped from doing anything useful can drive anyone up a wall. Harry is 15, is an adolescent and as such is very well written - adolescents tend to be self-centred and subject to easy rage. Sirius has spent many years in Azkaban, never had the chance to grow up, and having to stay in the house constantly affects him. ? What killed Sirius? Probably crossing the veil (see "the black veil", above). Some members have said that a well-aimed stupefy spell to the chest might stop the heart, thus killing the person. Sirius did look surprised, which is a face many people have when they die. - Is he really dead? Seems so, sorry. If you can't accept it, you are welcomed to join U.S.S. SAD DENIAL (Sirius' Awful Death Didn't End Neatly; It's A Lie!), a theory captained by Terry LJ for those that think Sirius isn't really dead. Many already have (knowingly or unknowingly). ? What was the point of Sirius's death? Everyone has an opinion. Some accuse JKR of sloppy writing. Others point out that death rarely has a meaning, in RL, and thus doesn't need it in the books. Others give their own explanaitions of why Sirius was the chosen one. Searching for "Sirius death point" might be a good idea before attempting this subject. ? Harry forgot about Sirius's mirror! Why? Is it a Flint? Did JKR forget? No. Harry has forgotten about presents before - particularly, Sirius's knife, that he needed in the second task of GoF, and the sneakscope, that has spent 4 years inside a sock. ? Harry didn't become a prefect? Can he become a Head Boy? Yes! His father wasn't a prefect, but still was Head Boy. - But will he? No idea - ask me after book 7. Severus Snape ------------- . Was that scene we saw in the Pensieve really his worst memory? Wouldn't the Prank be worse? The text never calls it that, only the title of the chapter does. Still, some list members think it had to do with being saved by a girl and a mudblood - Lily. And that was not the only memory in the pensieve, nor did we see all of it. . Did Snape overhear what the Marauders were saying? Wouldn't he have found out that Lupin was a werewolf? We don't know. Possible answers include: He was out of normal hearing range -- he imagined it and added it to his memory later. He was out of normal hearing range -- but the pensieve's power truthfully revealed what they were saying. He has extraordinarily acute hearing but thought it was a joke. He did find out that Lupin was a werewolf, and entered the tunnel despite that because he was under an Imperius curse. . Is Snape poor? He has grey underwear. Old clothes don't grey, they get holes and go yellow. Whether Snape didn't allow his underwear to be cleaned or it was grey to start with is open to debate. (Or whether it turned grey BECAUSE it was cleaned--with too many black robes!) . Shouldn't Harry have apologised for going into the Pensieve? Most members seem to think so. . Why didn't Harry go to Snape when he needed a member of the Order? Some folks think that Harry still doesn't trust Snape (Ron keeps suggesting that Snape is trying to HELP Voldemort see into Harry's mind, not STOP him), and the last time he asked him for help, Snape stalled and was a hindrance, rather than a help (GoF, when Harry needs to tell someone about Crouch, Sr. in the Forbidden Forest). However, The text says that Harry forgot, so many list members think it had nothing to do with his not trusting Snape. Harry's realization that he forgot is right there with him *willing* Snape to read his mind; this makes it seem that he wouldn't have had any problem going to Snape to save Sirius--he just *forgot.* Whether he "forgot" because of Ron continually trying to convince him that Snape isn't trustworthy is up for debate. . What is Snape's job in the Order? Many theories there, but no answers. Most agree he is spying on Voldemort, given what he told Harry during Occlumency lessons about his own capacity to resist Voldemort's ability to detect people who are lying to him. . What was Snape doing during the Ministry incident? Snape was the one that tipped off the members of the Order, and then went searching for Harry in the Forbidden Forest. Some speculate that since he is spying on Voldemort, he couldn't have joined in, as that would have given him away. . Snape isn't in the Black family chart! Is he mixed blood? Or Mudblood? Not every wizard is necessarily related to the Blacks, the implications about inbreeding aside. It is doubtful that a Mudblood would either call anyone by that name OR be Sorted into Slytherin House, but we have no specific information about Snape's background. Because of his house and his use of this epithet one might assume that he is at the very least a half-blood. . Will knowledge of Snape's role in the Order, which is right there in Harry's mind, endanger Snape if Voldemort "sees" that memory in Harry? Many list members have wondered (or worried about) this, and it might very well be why Snape agreed to participate in the Occlumency lessons (self-preservation); there is no clear answer yet. Dumbledore --------------- . Why was it safe for Dumbledore to talk to Harry at the end? We don't know and JKR left us to worry about it. We may find out in Book Six. Possible explanations include: Dumbledore felt that Voldemort wouldn't be up to invading Harry's mind just then because he was still recovering from his defeat in the duel. Harry's mind was such a jumble of emotions that Voldemort wouldn't be able to read it. Voldemort could no longer endure the power of Harry's heart once it had been unleashed by his reaction to the loss of Sirius. Dumbledore has renounced the 'safe' path - that is the whole point of the conversation. He realises that keeping Harry away from risks just opens up new, worse risks. His reason for not talking to Harry through most of the book was to try to downgrade the importance of Harry to himself in Voldemort's thoughts. The fact that D turned up in person to defend Harry means V can no longer be fooled by this. This is another topic that will probably be discussed until the next book. Dennis Creevey ------------------- Q. How could Dennis Creevey be at the meeting in the Hog's Head when he was only in second year? A. This might be another Flint. OTOH Dennis may have asked his big brother Colin, who had a chat with his classmate Ginny Weasley and found out about the secret tunnels to Hogsmeade. Or, it's possible that Dumbledore had relaxed the age of the Hogsmeade visits. We will once again have to wait to hear from JKR. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf [Written by Grey Wolf, who has given the Administration Team permission to use this post. We thank you.] ********************************************************************* From starropal at hotmail.com Wed Jul 2 01:49:35 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 20:49:35 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hunks & Horklumps in Harry Potter! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66638 jenny, who's from ravenclaw, wrote: >So, Barty Crouch Jr. gets to be a hunk for murdering his father, but >Percy is a horklump for being bad to his mother? Call me crazy, but >I'd rather not see Crouch Jr. as a hunk in any way, shape or form. ...Your crazy. Couldn't resist sorry. No he wasn't a Hunk BECAUSE he killed his father. I just know that some people think of him as such (which one is that? BABEMEISTER? Is that the one? Or SYCOPHANTS? I know there's one for him). Just representing, and I was in a hurry ta' boot. Later I thought "Barty Crouch-My Mother Saved Me Hunk" "Most Faithful Servant Hunk" "No Longer His Son Hunk" "High On Veritaserum Hunk" "Unforgivables Hunk" I could keep going all night. I got a million of them! Actually I wanted to just put Hunk beside Percy too, but I was afraid of the response (Ironic, yes?). I didn't want to make any of them horklumps, just like I didn't feel right about making anyone a skank. Its peer pressure, I tell you, peer pressure. And yet no one said anything about Dobby being on the list... Star Opal One for the road: Lee Jorden-Sorry Professor! Hunk _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Jul 2 01:54:53 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 21:54:53 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP:Harry related to who? Message-ID: <17a.1d31a771.2c33956d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66639 In a message dated 6/29/2003 4:09:59 PM Central Standard Time, sydenmill at msn.com writes: > Y'know, isn't it amazing that we all assume that James is pureblood > and that the reason Harry is a Mudblood or halfblood is because of > Lily? Wouldn't it be something if James turns out to be from Muggle > parentage? Not one word has ever been said in canon about this, has > it? > I might not have perfect recall on this but wasn't the invisibility cloak a family heirloom? That in itself implies that it was handed down from generation to generation. If I'm correct then James wasn't a muggle born. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tagasilab at ispbonanza.com.ph Wed Jul 2 02:05:59 2003 From: tagasilab at ispbonanza.com.ph (tagasilab) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 02:05:59 -0000 Subject: OOP: A satire on real events? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66640 Ah, finally found the post on this: In my opinion, the events in OOP (in the Umbridge-usurped Hogwarts specifically) parallel the dark days of the 1970s for the people in Manila. The detentions, supression of freedom of assembly (yes, a gathering of more than *3* students was classified as an act of subversion), freedom of speech... mercifully, no deaths but a heck of a lot of torture as well. Firestarter --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dan Feeney" wrote: > The irritating thing for some on reading OOP is that it is (certainly to me) a pretty fair satire of the response of the large media and certain > governments around the world to George Bush and his so-called war on > terrorism. Of course, media manipulation happens all the time, but rarely so > dramatically as in the last couple years. I mean, didn't shrub say > that we quite possibly will never know all the things the US > military is doing? Didn't he say we shouldn't know? Well, yes, he did, in > fact. From beelissa at nycap.rr.com Wed Jul 2 02:12:28 2003 From: beelissa at nycap.rr.com (Melissa Worcester) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 22:12:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why did Lily marry James ? / Snapes other worst memory References: Message-ID: <003801c3403f$632089e0$dba5c318@CPQ21816182602> No: HPFGUIDX 66641 Corinth wrote: >After all, >Harry was born only two years after the two began dating. How do we know this? >Something big happenned. I agree. I just can't wait to find out what it is... Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From beelissa at nycap.rr.com Wed Jul 2 02:23:48 2003 From: beelissa at nycap.rr.com (Melissa Worcester) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 22:23:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tear-Jerking Moments in the Series -- Some OoP References: Message-ID: <004401c34040$f85fac10$dba5c318@CPQ21816182602> No: HPFGUIDX 66642 There are OoP spoilers in my reply, beware. ... .. . Well, I haven't actually *cried* reading any of the HP books, but if I did, the moment that got me the most would be when Harry is going thru his trunk toward the end of the book and finds the package Sirius gave him "in case you need to contact me" or whatever. And Harry didn't want to get him into trouble, so he *never even opened it*! This is such an "if-only" moment. If only he'd realized it was there, he wouldn't have had to break into Umbridge's office to use her fire (though I was really impressed at how he figured out how to do that sticking-your-head-out-of-the-fire thing. I thought he'd just go all the way thru...). If only he'd have made more contact with Sirius, it would have made Sirius' last days happier, even if the final outcome couldn't have been changed. But, the biggest, if only he'd consulted with Sirius about the dreams, etc. and really listened, he may have helped him to see it was a trap and changed the whole outcome. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 02:32:31 2003 From: rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 02:32:31 -0000 Subject: Why did Lily marry James ? / Snapes other worst memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66643 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "corinthum" wrote: > davydarmstrong wrote: > I also don't see the "James grew up" scenario as plausible. Yes, it > is very possible that James did mature, lose his arrogance, and become > a very likeable guy in the span of two years. Let us not forget we are talking about a man who sacrificed his life in an attempt to buy time for his wife and infant son to escape Voldemort - not to mention having the guts to join the OotP in what must have been the Order's darkest days. Like many people James had a mixture of admirable and not so admirable characteristics. In his case the admirable ones won out. Look at his friends; Sirius and Lupin are both good men, and they remember James with great affection. Cut the guy some slack already. But as of the end of > their fifth year, Lily despised James. She copnsidered him on the > same level as Mudblood-slinging-Snape. She said she would rather date > the giant squid than James. To quote Sirius, of course she didn't 'hate' James. Any more than Princess Leia hated Han Solo, (who also acted like a major jerk on occasion). Haven't you ever seen a Tracy/Hepburn movie? The feisty heroine *always* acts like she hates the brash hero because she resents his cynicism and lack of conventional ethics, but most of all for the emotional confusion he creates in her, (and vice versa of course). Poor Lily, attracted to a jerk who insists on showing off his jerkiness in a particularly objectionable way in front of *everybody*. What's the matter with this guy? How could she ever have found him appealing? Naturally she's furious and hostile. I'm sure Hermione would agree with my analysis 100% ;) From amadeus_rex at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 02:34:21 2003 From: amadeus_rex at yahoo.com (Ed) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 02:34:21 -0000 Subject: OOP - LV related to Harry?????? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66644 I've seen alot of posts about possible relations of LV and various wizards. Most people seem to be pushing the LV/Harry possible relation aside. I, however, think it is very possible. First of all, As I recall (and please correct me with book and page if I'm wrong) LV was just "The Heir of Slytherin" not his last remaining desendant. Also, we do not know LV's mother's name. Even if he is refered to by someone as Slytherin's Last remaining desendant, the unknown Identity of his mother (and remember, most wizards don't know he is Tom Riddle Jr., after his Muggle father) would leave his wizarding heritage in complete darkness. Anyone could say anything about his ancestors being this family or that one, that does not mean that it is true. Well, all that said, here's my theory. I believe that Voldemort's Mother's last name was POTTER. I think that the only two people who know this are LV and Dumbledore (he's still trying to protect Harry, his fatal flaw, he cares to much). As I see it, the reason LV thought that the prophecy refers to Harry, and not Neville, is that he knows Harry is his relative (1st cousin twice removed, or something like that) and that his birth is similar to his (1 muggle parent, 1 wizarding) and that it is these factors that led him to conclude it was Harry. As for exact relationship, I think LV's mother was something like James' Aunt or Great Aunt (sister to either his father or grandfather, for those of you in Rio Linda and Palm Beach County). It's quite possible she was the black sheep of the family, or had just run away and not been heard from again (probably assumed dead). It would also explain why Dumbledore suggested the step of the Fidelus Charm for the Potters BEFORE Voldemort had "Marked Him [Harry] as his Equal." Dumbledore had deduced, correctly as usual, that LV would assume that Harry was the boy in the prophecy. It is never metioned that the same percautions were taken to protect the Longbottoms. If they had, how did Belletrix and her gang get to them to torture them into insanity? Dumbledore knows LV better than anyone, almost better than LV knows himself. He would have been able to deduce which boy LV would think the prophecy refered to. As for relations, I saw someone say that if JKR had intended Sirius and Narcissa Malfoy to be cousins, why did Draco react to Harry the way he did in PoA. Well, I agree with the comment that Sirius had been disowned and was not concidered family. But, more than that, Lucius knew that Sirius was NOT a DE, and therefore, not guilty. Draco, little bastard DE-in-training that he is, I'm sure knows a litte of this, or a least would have picked up on his father's attitude towards Sirius, and, henceforth, commented to Harry the way he did in PoA. From tcinc at centurytel.net Wed Jul 2 02:29:11 2003 From: tcinc at centurytel.net (xnavyguy73) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 02:29:11 -0000 Subject: just me or does the phoenix have great signifigance Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66645 This may have been addressed but I can't help but think that the fact that the core of voldamort and harry's wands are both phoenix feathers are supposed to have come from fawks. So could this also be a clue to a connection between Dumbledore, Harry, and Voldamort. Are there any thoughts, or does anyone know where this subject has already been addressed?? From bambi_1919 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 02:23:57 2003 From: bambi_1919 at yahoo.com (bambi_1919) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 02:23:57 -0000 Subject: OOtP: Aberforth Dumbledore? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66646 I was re-reading the book, and concentrated on something that had nagged at me from the first run-through: when Harry and the DA meet for the first time in the Hog's Head, Harry looks at the bartender, who has, "long gray hair and beard," and thinks he looks vaguely familiar. They never go back to that or clarify it...what if it is Aberforth Dumbledore? The vague familiarity could be because of a family resemblance...any thoughts? Am I just fishing? LupinLover From hyattmc at email.uc.edu Wed Jul 2 02:25:02 2003 From: hyattmc at email.uc.edu (hyattmc at email.uc.edu) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 22:25:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OOP: Re: Tear-Jerking Moments in the Series -- Some OoP In-Reply-To: <14a.211bc8f2.2c339150@aol.com> References: <14a.211bc8f2.2c339150@aol.com> Message-ID: <1057112702.3f02427ed01e9@webmail.uc.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 66647 I'm a bit of a lurker, but felt the need to chime in. I think you guys have mentioned a lot of them, but there's one in PoA that really stuck out to me. The second read through of the part where Harry snuck into Hogsmede and overheard his teachers talking about the things that Sirius did, betraying his parents and everything. When you know the truth about what really happened, it's just so sad to hear them say all that. Another that occured to me just know was (in OotP), when Harry has detention with Unbridge and has to write with that special little pen. That was just sadistic. Not really a tear-jerker, but it really got to me. Kayro From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Wed Jul 2 02:16:24 2003 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 02:16:24 -0000 Subject: OoP to the other four books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66648 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rasster477" wrote: > DO NOT READ THIS IF YOU HAVE NOT READ BOOK 5 AS IT MAY SPOIL IT FOR > YOU. > > > I thought that this was a good book, as the HP books always are. I > just thought that it needed a little bit more action as we're coming > ever so closer to the end of the series. Not to mention that the > last HP book (#4) had so much action(i.e. the triwizard cup, big > battle with just harry against Voldemort and death eaters). I just > thought that this one should have had a little more action that > Harry was included in. Really, if you think about it, Harry was > banned from quidditch after the first game, and he didn't even get > to be in the fight against Voldemort. Dumbledore fought Voldemort > while Harry was held back by a statue. But the book was really good. > I thought it was a lot different than the other books, and like the > review that I read from someone else, I thought it seemed somewhat > more realistic. I think there was plenty of action, considering there are still two books left. Harry had just went up against Voldemort in GoF, so it wouldn't have made much since for them to REALLY battle again so soon. There's only so many times JKR can have the two come face to face, fight, and have one just coming close to killing the other. But I do agree with you about this book being really good. Very worthwhile! From fairecher at aol.com Wed Jul 2 02:15:11 2003 From: fairecher at aol.com (fairecher at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 22:15:11 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: It is Snape's fault!!!! Message-ID: <39.3ae580c2.2c339a2f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66649 In a message dated 7/1/2003 5:35:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, srsiriusblack at aol.com writes: > However, I think there was a motive to what Snape did. He KNEW Harry would > look into the Penseive. He knew Harry would see a moment of his father acting > as the ass. He also knew that this might just taint Harry's perception of > James as a Saint-like figure. Also, this moment perpetuates Snape's ideas of > Harry being 'above the rules' and untrustworthly. > I have a question. I have wondered if the Penseive records events like a camera, or if the images are filtered thru the point of view of the memory's owner? For example, was James REALLY as bad as he seemed, or was that just Snape's feelings seeing James? Was Harry seeing his father the way he really acted, or was he only seeing Snape's point of view? (Not that I think that seeing the scene thru Snape's eyes is a bad thing, it's always good to try to figure out WHY someone acts the way they do!) -- Cherie :) http://members.aol.com/justcherie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rioandem at hotmail.com Wed Jul 2 00:59:01 2003 From: rioandem at hotmail.com (eay50) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:59:01 -0000 Subject: OoP: Pureblood Relations - what about the Potters? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66650 Okay, this has been troubling me since I first read the tapestry scene. Sirius says that pretty much all pureblood wizards are related somehow. If that's true, why doesn't he mention the Potters?? We have been told again and again that Harry is 'half-blood like Voldemort' - that Lily was muggle-born and that James came from a wizarding family. If Sirius went to all the trouble of telling Harry about his distant connections with Molly and Arthur, why would he not mention Harry's own family??? Any suggestions? E.A.Y. From rioandem at hotmail.com Wed Jul 2 00:47:17 2003 From: rioandem at hotmail.com (eay50) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:47:17 -0000 Subject: OOP:Re: Black Relatives - What about the Potters?? In-Reply-To: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30B032@msgmsp16.norwest.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66651 > > Jennifer: > > Good point Barb- This line of this thread originated when someone made the > comment that there was probably more to the Black family then we knew about. > As pointed out- did Sirius intentionally keep Harry from looking to closely > at the Black family tree? If so, why? If Sirius is related to Voldemort > (through one grandparent- thanks I was confusing myself about relations :) - > as you also said, what is the point? Why would the be relevant? Don't know > the answer- but it makes for some interesting pondering. My main question from OOP is this: If Sirius says that all pureblood families are related somewhere along the line - then why doesn't he mention the Potters?? We are told time and time again that Lily was muggle-born but that James wasn't. If Sirius goes to all the trouble of telling Harry about his distant connections to the Weasleys, why wouldn't he mention Harry's own family? Does anyone have any thoughts on this? It's been troubling me ever since I read the tapestry scene. From rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 02:47:51 2003 From: rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 02:47:51 -0000 Subject: OOtP: Aberforth Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66652 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bambi_1919" wrote: > I was re-reading the book, and concentrated on something that had > nagged at me from the first run-through: when Harry and the DA meet > for the first time in the Hog's Head, Harry looks at the bartender, > who has, "long gray hair and beard," and thinks he looks vaguely > familiar. They never go back to that or clarify it...what if it is > Aberforth Dumbledore? The vague familiarity could be because of a > family resemblance...any thoughts? Am I just fishing? Ooh that's a thought! Mundungus' membership in the Order demonstrates Dumbledore's interest in keeping a finger on the pulse the the Wizardly underworld. Stationing his brother in the decidedly dodgy Hog's Head might be a similar effort - or maybe just taking advantage of his brother's unconventional lifestyle. It is likely we will be seeing the Hog's Head and its oddly familiar bartender again in the next two books, hopefully all questions will be answered eventually. From Lynx412 at aol.com Wed Jul 2 02:54:36 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 22:54:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Grimmauld Place/In Defense of Harry and Molly Message-ID: <18.3253aaee.2c33a36c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66653 In a message dated 7/1/03 8:51:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, linlou43 at yahoo.com writes: > I actually wonder if 12 Grimmauld Place belonged to the Black > family in the first place. Could it be that Sirius's mother was the > last of another line of pureblood wizards and once married to Black > they moved into *her* ancesteral home? The only names on the > tapestry that we are given surnames for are Belatrix, Narcissa, the > Malfoys and the surname of Tonk's muggle father. We really don't > know anything about *Mommy dearest's* family at all. If she is the > last of her family, it would explain her maniacal drive to keep the > family name of her husband pure. It would be the only name she has > left. I suspect that you have something there. In fact, I suspect that *Mommy Dearest's* surname was Nigellus. It would explain the Slytherin symbols, much like those in Phineas' portrait and why Phineas is so concerned with he last of the Blacks. Cheryl the Lynx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Jul 2 02:58:45 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 22:58:45 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Wording on the prophecy Message-ID: <157.20b94b0e.2c33a465@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66654 In a message dated 6/29/2003 4:18:20 PM Central Standard Time, susannacedric at passagen.se writes: > On the prophecy it says: > > Dark Lord to (?) Harry Potter > > Accordin to Harry only death Eaters call Voldemort the Dark Lord. Is > this just a 'typo'? Shouldn't it say You-Know-Who or He-Who-Must-Not- > Be-Named? > > This is really bugging me actually, any ideas? > > Susanna > Maybe Rookwood is the one who filed it away? He worked down there didn't he? or have I confused him with someone else [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Wed Jul 2 02:49:12 2003 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 02:49:12 -0000 Subject: OoP: Neville and his father's wand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66655 Sorry if I'm repeating anyone else.. I've read a lot of posts here and other places concerning Neville, saying he's grown a lot and maybe he's not such a bad wizard after all. I think some people missed the fact he never had his own wand, he had his father's all this time. The wand chooses the wizard, not the other way around. Meaning, that wand was meant for Neville's father's development as a wizard, not Neville's. I think that reasoning escaped Gran when she gave it to him. Maybe sentiments was clouding her judgement so much, that she believed it would bring out the same magic in Neville as it had brought out in his father. Seeing as he has come so far after using a wand belonging to someone else, imagine what he could have accomplished with one of his own. Look at Ron, before he was given his own wand, he could barely get it to work for him. After, he gained a little confidence (still not the best wizard in school, but better). I'm not saying even if Neville did have a wand of his own from the very beginning, he would be as good a wizard as Hermionee's a witch, but I doubt he would have ever believed himself to a be a Squib. In my oppinion, Neville's grown a little in the OotP not because his magic itself has, but because of his determination to avenge his parents' defeat due to the DA- knowing his ties with his friends are stronger than ever because they are frighting for and against the same causes hasn't hurt. -Maritza From triskel1 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 02:51:54 2003 From: triskel1 at yahoo.com (Suzanne) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 02:51:54 -0000 Subject: OOtP: Aberforth Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66656 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowena_grunnionffitch" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bambi_1919" > wrote: > > I was re-reading the book, and concentrated on something that had > > nagged at me from the first run-through: when Harry and the DA meet > > for the first time in the Hog's Head, Harry looks at the bartender, > > who has, "long gray hair and beard," and thinks he looks vaguely > > familiar. They never go back to that or clarify it...what if it is > > Aberforth Dumbledore? The vague familiarity could be because of a > > family resemblance...any thoughts? Am I just fishing? > > Ooh that's a thought! Mundungus' membership in the Order > demonstrates Dumbledore's interest in keeping a finger on the pulse > the the Wizardly underworld. Stationing his brother in the decidedly > dodgy Hog's Head might be a similar effort - or maybe just taking > advantage of his brother's unconventional lifestyle. > > It is likely we will be seeing the Hog's Head and its oddly > familiar bartender again in the next two books, hopefully all > questions will be answered eventually. **** We know that Aberforth was an original member of the OOtP, and Dumbledore mentions him once or twice. But I seem to remember there being some question as to his loyalty to the Order in the end. And when Dumbledore mentions that someone gave Voldemort info on the prophecy it was at the Hog's Head and then Umbridge finds out about the DA from the Hog's head as well. Is it possible that Aberforth is on the side of LV? From cottoncandyisyummy at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 23:35:44 2003 From: cottoncandyisyummy at hotmail.com (ravenclaws_luna_lovegood) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 23:35:44 -0000 Subject: OOP: Some info on the Veil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66657 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "harrysfannyc" wrote: > One view: Human souls that had been trapped in the bodies of animals > were released by the lord of the dead and sent to their new > incarnations. > > Me: I know that Sirius was not trapped inside a body of an animal > but he could change into one - so what if JKR was to bring him back > as something else? > > Another view: The veil between this world and the World of the > Ancestors was drawn aside on these nights, and for those who were > prepared, journeys could be made in safety to the 'other side'. > > Me again: So maybe Harry could actually go & find him. > > I know I'm stretching it a bit - I just want him back. > > "harrysfannyc" Today I was listening to my green day cd and in their song "Macy's Day Parade" , the first two lines are "Today's the Macy's Day Parade, the night of living dead is on it's way.." SO maybe, Sirius just might come back for a bit or Harry might get to talk to him through the veil or something. I know having him come back kinda defeats the purpose of him dying in the first place but I wan thim back soooo bad! From mbarclay at lee.edu Wed Jul 2 03:06:02 2003 From: mbarclay at lee.edu (Barclay, Maggie) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 22:06:02 -0500 Subject: Tear-Jerking Moments in the Series -- Some OoP Message-ID: <8F497E280916D4119B0100A0C9EA53E7021D5A70@leonardo.lee.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 66658 As a rule, I don't cry over books or movies, but I did tear up once while reading OoP. When Harry saw a single tear sliding down Dumbledore's face. . .that really did me in. MaggieB [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Cfitz812 at aol.com Tue Jul 1 23:55:40 2003 From: Cfitz812 at aol.com (Claire) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 23:55:40 -0000 Subject: Tear-Jerking Moments in the Series -- Some OoP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66659 "darrin_burnett" wrote: > I was thinking about all five books and which moments brought a > lump to the throat and a tear to the eye Mine was in PoA when DD tells Harry "Do you think the dead we loved ever truly leave us? You think we don't recall them more clearly than ever in time of great trouble?" Having lost both my parents, the tears flow every time I read this and I've read it a lot. Claire From gjjohnson at juno.com Wed Jul 2 00:24:59 2003 From: gjjohnson at juno.com (Gabe) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:24:59 -0000 Subject: OoP: Has Anyone Seen Redeemable Draco??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66660 This is spoiler space . "kiricat2001" wrote: > > I just thought I'd throw out the question for all you Draco fans out > there. Is there more evidence in OoP for "Redeemable Draco"? > > Personally, I've never liked Draco. The only way that I thought he > could turn into one of the good guys would be if he, for some reason, > examined the kind of stuff he's learned all his life as a good Malfoy > and decide that maybe what Daddy Lucius was teaching him was wrong. > > I'm in the midst of my second read of the book. A much slower and > careful read, so I'm picking up a lot more details than the first > time when I was roaring though it like a tsunami. Anyway, while I > know I've only covered some of Draco's scenes, he strikes me as one > of the characters that has had little, if any, character > development. If anything, he strikes me as becoming even more of a > stock character. But, perhaps the Draco fans should be the ones to > comment. Redeemable? Dead sexy? We've seen this act before? > Junior DE? > > What's the verdict? > > Marianne Hmm... I really like the *idea* of a redeemable Draco. Maybe this generation's Snape? --a good guy, just not good at it, maybe still mean and nasty, but good. Maybe he'll be able to think through things with Daddy in prison or on the run. . . Maybe Narcissa is really working for Dumbledore. . . Maybe Draco will figure out that Snape is on Dumbledore's side, and he'll have to re-evaluate some things. . . Who knows? It would be the ultimate picture of unity if he came over. . . and maybe we could see his character rounded out a bit. He seems little more than an annoyance by the end of OOP. . . Gabe From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Wed Jul 2 03:06:46 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 23:06:46 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Wording on the prophecy Message-ID: <147.14b26cc3.2c33a646@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66661 In a message dated 7/1/2003 10:59:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Meliss9900 at aol.com writes: > > On the prophecy it says: > > > > Dark Lord to (?) Harry Potter > > > > Accordin to Harry only death Eaters call Voldemort the Dark Lord. Is > > this just a 'typo'? Shouldn't it say You-Know-Who or He-Who-Must-Not- > > Be-Named? > > > > This is really bugging me actually, any ideas? > > > > Susanna Maybe Dumbledore's a Death Eater!...errmm...hehehe...J/K ^^; Perhaps the prophecy was made before LV was so feared he was addressed as 'He-who-must-not-be-named', but still during a time when he wasn't addressed by his name. Or! Perhaps it was made before LV's first reign of terror? Or...as I think someone said, it was because that was the name he was addressed as in the Prophecy itself. Just some thoughts ^^; ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wildean at shibaotu.fsworld.co.uk Wed Jul 2 00:42:21 2003 From: wildean at shibaotu.fsworld.co.uk (Wildean) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 01:42:21 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP Molly's Maiden Name References: <3F01FB51.8090504@cloudnet.com> <009301c34020$fc01bf90$18f3a986@caro> Message-ID: <01c101c34033$0959dda0$91d086d9@b5c9d5> No: HPFGUIDX 66662 From: "Carolin Mnkemeyer" Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] OOP Molly's Maiden Name > Molly's maiden name couldn't be Evans for a simple reason: > In CoS the whole Weasley family (including the children) is said to be > pureblodded BUT Evans is the name James calls Lily in OOP(he wanted to date > Lily at that time, [snip] This would > mean that Molly would be mugglerelated and this is impossible. What you say is true, except for one thing. Who's to say that Molly Evans is any relation to Lily Evans? It's hardly an uncommon name. For example: The singer usually known as "Sting" is actually called Gordon Sumner. My name is Pat Sumner. But we aren't related. Wildean From dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 01:16:36 2003 From: dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com (dudemom_2000) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 01:16:36 -0000 Subject: OOP What's in a name? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66663 Just a tongue in cheek thought about the names JK picked for her characters and how they may or may not reflect what that person/personality is like. I looked through my dictionary (huge old Websters) and looked up several sites for name meanings. The best one I found was http://www.20000-names.com/index.htm Ok, now on to some names: Minerva (McGonagal): Goddess of wisdom, of war and of liberal arts also Greek means Athena. We have seen McGonagal be wise, fight well when she has to and seems to have wide ranging talents. Harry: English meaning army power, ruler of the army. Hmmmm. Hermione: I found several interesting things - it is the feminine of Hermes meaning messenger. Websters mentioned a Shakespeare play 'Winters Tale' where the name Hermione is for a woman who is the example of dignity without pride, love without passion,and tenderness without weakness. Hermione loves her friends but doesn't lose her head, she is kind but not weak with them, she has a dignity but isn't too proud to do what she thinks is right (SPEW). Hermione is often a messenger of sorts - generally you can believe what she says or observes about something. Cassandra Trelawney: a seer doomed to make dire predictions that no one believes. This is an odd name for someone who was known as a great seeress. I'm wondering if this is somehow an inside joke for JK by giving the one with talent this name and her great great great granddaughter the name of someone who is usually believed. Sibyl Trelawney: seer who makes predictions. Again odd, because she is actually more of a "Cassandra" who isn't believed. (She's made two BIG predictions and somehow I think she's got at least one more in her which is why Dumbledore is keeping her around!) Molly: Irish meaning bitter. I guess she is bitter about some things - Fred and George not succeeding the way she wants, Percy's behavior. Petunia: flower but of the genus of the nightshade family (often a poison) Another interesting item. Narcissa: self love, excessive interest in ones own appearance, comfort, importance and abilities. From what little we have seen of her this seems to be the case. Ron: Scottish for mighty, powerful ruler - Ronald - Old English meaning counsel power. Not sure about this since usually what he jokes about is what comes true. Fred: German for peaceful ruler (doesn't seem like Fred huh? possibly Fred is more of a make jokes not war kind of guy) George: English for farmer, tiller of soil (also not like George but he is very inventive and works hard at making jokes.) Neville: french meaning new town or settlement. Again not sure. Maybe Neville is for a new beginning. Albus: latin for white (definitely significant) Argus Filch: Greek for a giant with 100 eyes who was placed by Hera to guard Io. Definitely aptly named. Possibly others can come up with some thoughts on the meanings of these and other names in the books (tongue in cheek or not) and how they symbolize the person or personality of the characters. Obviously I had too much time on my hands at work today!!!!!! *****\(@@)/***** Dudemom_2000 From dreambeliever001 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 02:10:21 2003 From: dreambeliever001 at yahoo.com (dreambeliever001) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 02:10:21 -0000 Subject: OOP: SPOILERS: Sirius/legal things In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66664 "a14fiesta" wrote: > I was just wondering who will be Harry's guardian now that Sirius > has gone ... > And what happens to Sirius's property: there's Grimmauld Place, the > money in his vault - and what about the house he said he bought when > he was 17 (not to mention the flying motorbike...) maybe if Sirius did have a will he would have left the house to Harry or the order. Just a thought though. He could have left it for Dumbledore in order for the Order to still use it. By leaving it to Harry or Dumbledore, nobody would have to find out about the Order. (Diana, very much still missing Sirius From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Wed Jul 2 03:02:15 2003 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 03:02:15 -0000 Subject: Is anyone else not holding their breath? lol Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66665 Am I the only one who is not expecting Book 6 to be released within the next year? I mean, it would be great if that happened, but I doubt it will. JKR has said she already has the ending of the series done (whether that means written out or only in her head, I don't remember). But anyway, she's already explained why OotP took three years, and her reasons are completely understandable. I want her to take her time writing Book 6, if she needs it. My release date guess is at least one year, two the most. From david_p at istop.com Wed Jul 2 03:16:53 2003 From: david_p at istop.com (David Paterson) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 03:16:53 -0000 Subject: Tear-Jerking Moments in the Series -- Some OoP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66666 My joyous tear-jerking moment comes from PS/SS: Harry is recovering from recovering the Stone, under the watchful eye of Madame Pomfrey. Hagrid enters, apologises for his failings, and says "...anyway, got yeh this." It seemed to be a handsome, leather-covered book. Harry opened it curiously. It was full of Wizard photogrpahs. Smiling and waving at him from every page were his mother and father. ... Harry couldn't speak, but Hagrid understood. Coming after Harry's first heart-breaking introduction to the Mirror of Erised, that one gets me every time. ===== Soylens Viridis Homines Est From andie at knownet.net Wed Jul 2 03:18:53 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 03:18:53 -0000 Subject: Tear-Jerking Moments in the Series -- Some OoP In-Reply-To: <8F497E280916D4119B0100A0C9EA53E7021D5A70@leonardo.lee.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66667 This is a great thread... wish I would have thought of it! In any case, there are so many times I've been close to tears throughout the 5 books: Just a few... SS Neville's points Hagrid's photo album - Harry's reaction CoS Scene where Harry goes into Dumbledore's office after coming from the Chamber... and seeing Mrs. Weasley crying... PoA Harry nodding to say he believed Sirius was innocent Sirius telling Harry, "You are truly your father's son Harry" before taking off on Buckbeak. GoF After the Hungarian Horntail Graveyard scene - enough said Harry almost crying on Molly's shoulder Dumbledore's speech at the end - when he discusses Harry and says... "and for this I honor him." OoP Molly's boggart Lupin & Harry after Sirius passes through the veil Dumbeldore's tear Harry's isolation and tears when he comes from the lake I'm sure I'll think of a few more after I send this... grindieloe From david_p at istop.com Wed Jul 2 03:24:12 2003 From: david_p at istop.com (David Paterson) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 03:24:12 -0000 Subject: OotP: Hogsmeade in books 6 and 7 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66668 Here's a thought: At the end of PoA, Sirius signed a form permitting Harry to go to Hogsmeade on weekends. With Sirius gone beyond the veil, does that mean Harry needs a new permisison slip? Will he spend the first few chapters in book 6 sweet-talking Vernon into signing a new permission slip? === Recursive: adj. see Recursive From dark30 at vcn.bc.ca Wed Jul 2 03:25:57 2003 From: dark30 at vcn.bc.ca (Dan Feeney) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 03:25:57 -0000 Subject: OOP: Tear jerk, real events Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66669 When Harry is approaching the point on the shore where he'd seen "his father", and it all starts coming clear "oh, yes, of course" we say, waiting for Harry to realize it. Very moving, transcendental. Regarding my post on real events, Bush was only the latest and most obvious example of media/gov't collusion. Of course, Rowling is talking about totalitarianism, racism and such things themselves, using the safety of fiction, like those great Russian writers. From findmeabargain at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 03:31:26 2003 From: findmeabargain at yahoo.com (findmeabargain) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 03:31:26 -0000 Subject: Is anyone else not holding their breath? lol In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66670 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "l3al3y_Doll_3" wrote: > Am I the only one who is not expecting Book 6 to be released within > the next year? ... My release date guess > is at least one year, two the most. I couldn't agree with you more. When Wal*mart has a record day partly on account of the HP release - not to mention the retailers that will continue to sell OOP for weeks if not months - there's no reason for JKR to hurry, artistic or economic! Deb, marveling at the ripple effect of a book release From starropal at hotmail.com Wed Jul 2 03:36:08 2003 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 22:36:08 -0500 Subject: TBAY: OOP: Too much butterbeer--Terry gets the D!Ts (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66671 Star Opal sat on a bench outside the Royal George, the mourners and debaters getting a little too rowdy for her taste. Suddenly a loud *crack* sounded and a woman Star recognized as the captain of the USS SAD DENIAL, appeared. "Oy! Its Terry, right? I wanted to ask you about this SAD DENIAL thing you said, 'But I have read all those who truly loved Sirius and are in mourning, and it is to those people that I address this invitation: Feel free to visit the U.S.S. SAD DENIAL!' What if I didn't *love* Sirius, but just don't think he's dead? How would that work?" Suddenly the woman yells, "I'm not that insane DENIAL-ist! In fact I don't believe a bit of it, they don't even have hardly any weapons at all!" Star blinks, "Oh..." Then it dawns on her, "I get it! You're a Dark!Terry, its happened before, internal conflicting beliefs and such." D!T goes on not noticing what Star said, "She's out there holding that STUFFED BEAR, saying things like, 'Are you telling me that a grown wizard, with a wand, could be killed by accidentally passing through a veil? Are you telling me that, with all those wizards working in the Department of Mysteries, that that never happened before? Somebody couldn't come along and say, 'Dang, another one fell in? He was still alive? Well, hold on a minute, I'll fetch him out for you...' No, that whole veil thing was fishy.'" Star giggles, "That's actually a funny thought..." D!T glares at her "... In a, ah, completely morbid, farfetched, in denial kind of way." "Then," D!T continues after glaring at Star, "She comes out with this no canon answer: 'There's the argument that Harry needs a loyal father figure to go home to at the end; there's the argument that if Sirius is gone, no one has that close 'godfather' bond with him--which might even entail a magical binding agreement to protect him.'" Star interupts, "Yes I have a problem with that defense too. See, that was one of the big arguments for predicting Lupin's death. That the 'father/friend/MWPP member role' had been taken from him by Sirius and, thus, had no more important ties to Harry himself. Well, that's been solved now hasn't it? Sirius, the last true member of MWPP is dead. Lupin is safe in his two roles to fulfill. Knock that one down from the list in my opinion. Besides Sirius wasn't a good influence on Harry, Pensieve or no Pensieve." D!T looked at Star in a new way, "Yeah, so I told her, 'JKR! She _said_ he was dead! She cried over him!' Now that's proof if anything." "Well maybe not, didn't JKR say that she cried because she knew how it would effect Harry? Harry believes Sirius is dead, so he has to grieve. JKR likes Harry, so it must've been painful to put a character in such a situation. Besides there is that thing with the Thestrals, thats quite convincing actually." D!T glares at Star again, "So you *do* believe." "Heh, well, for me its more of an intuition thing. I never really got attached to Sirius, and the canon is pretty solid against him surviving. BUT my gut tells me he isn't dead. Its that rule of soap operas 'there's no body, so anything is game.' Even if I was hit over the head with a huge GetOverItHe'sDead mallet, I still wouldn't except it on personal merit." Dark!Terry throws up her hands and walks off muttering about crazy people and refusing to except the obvious. Star Opal who's been meaning to write in regard to SAD DENIAL but never got around to it _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From christi0469 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 2 03:44:06 2003 From: christi0469 at hotmail.com (Christi) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 03:44:06 -0000 Subject: OotP:Spoilers-Recurring minor characters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66672 Does anyone else think it's peculiar that Madam Marsh has been on the Night Bus both times Harry's ridden it, especially as it seems to effect her so badly? "'Best go wake up Madam Marsh, Stan'..." 'Stan came back downstairs, follow by a faintly green witch' PoA, ch3, pg32, UK pb "'We're just gonna let Madam Marsh off first, though-' there was a retching noise from downstairs, followed by a horrible spattering noise-'she's not feelin 'er best'" OotP, ch 24, pg465 UK Christi T. From ugadawg02 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 03:45:35 2003 From: ugadawg02 at yahoo.com (ugadawg02) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 03:45:35 -0000 Subject: OotP: Hogsmeade in books 6 and 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66673 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David Paterson" wrote: (snip) > With Sirius gone beyond the veil, does that mean Harry needs a new > permisison slip? Will he spend the first few chapters in book 6 > sweet-talking Vernon into signing a new permission slip? > Recursive: adj. see Recursive I think with Dumbledore back in charge he will not require Harry to get a new slip, he knows what happened and perhaps he himself might sign a new slip for Harry if the need arises. He is in a sense Harry's greatest Guardian. Come to think of it who is Harry's 'official' Guardian now (in the wizarding world) that Sirus is gone? -RJ From patricia at obscure.org Wed Jul 2 03:46:36 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 23:46:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Grimmauld Place/In Defense of Harry and Molly In-Reply-To: <18.3253aaee.2c33a36c@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66674 On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 Lynx412 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/1/03 8:51:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > linlou43 at yahoo.com writes: > > > > I actually wonder if 12 Grimmauld Place belonged to the Black > > family in the first place. Could it be that Sirius's mother was the > > last of another line of pureblood wizards and once married to Black > > they moved into *her* ancesteral home? The only names on the > > tapestry that we are given surnames for are Belatrix, Narcissa, the > > Malfoys and the surname of Tonk's muggle father. We really don't > > know anything about *Mommy dearest's* family at all. If she is the > > last of her family, it would explain her maniacal drive to keep the > > family name of her husband pure. It would be the only name she has > > left. > > I suspect that you have something there. In fact, I suspect that > *Mommy Dearest's* surname was Nigellus. It would explain the Slytherin symbols, > much like those in Phineas' portrait and why Phineas is so concerned with he last > of the Blacks. I think Phineas is one of the Blacks, not from a different family. Nigellus means "dark", or, essentially, "black". Thus his last name is the same as Sirius's, just in a different language (Latin instead of English). ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 03:51:35 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 03:51:35 -0000 Subject: OOP: Neville Apparating? (WAS Re: Scary Thought) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66675 Simon wrote: Here's a scacry though. From the different books, we have found out that Apparating is not east. Percy failed before getting his license but the twins managed on their first time. And that many wizards/witches won't apparate becos its difficult/dangerous. Now can anybody see Neville doig well with apparating or will he be visiting the local wizard hospital for unspecified injuries :> Tom replies: Although I don't have my copy of GoF handy, I was under the impression that the Apparation test was taken after a student graduates from Hogwarts. I'm basing this on the fact that Percy can Apparate by the beginning of GoF, and there's a comment (from one of the twins, I think) to the effect of "he's been Apparating everywhere, just to because he can." This indicated to me that his Apparation was a very recent development. To that, we can add two canon points: one, you can't Apparate on the Hogwarts grounds, so it's unlikely that the students could practice for the exam at Hogwarts, which suggests that they learn how to Apparate somewhere else; two, the tests take place on level six of the Ministry, at the "Apparation Test Center." (OoP, US edition, Ch.7, p129) To date, we've never heard of any of the older students leaving Hogwarts for their tests - and you'd think it'd be a big deal, sort of akin to getting a driver's permit or license, wouldn't you? So, all of this combined with the fact that there will be only seven books, one for each of Harry's years at school, suggests that we might really never get to see any of the kids in Harry's year Apparate at all. -Tom From Lynx412 at aol.com Wed Jul 2 03:55:32 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 23:55:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Grimmauld Place/In Defense of Harry and Molly Message-ID: <116.25a61c07.2c33b1b4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66676 In a message dated 7/1/03 11:47:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, patricia at obscure.org writes: > I think Phineas is one of the Blacks, not from a different family. > Nigellus means "dark", or, essentially, "black". Thus his last name is > the same as Sirius's, just in a different language (Latin instead of > English). Good point. I thought of that first when Sirius pointed him out, then someone here posted a different translation of Nigellus. Hmm...well, hopefully, we'll see more of the tree later on. And I wonder about the contracts house elves have...might be fun if old Phineas was the one who first 'contracted' Kreature's ancestors and can command him, much like Kreature was taking orders from Mommie's portrait. Cheryl the Lynx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Wed Jul 2 03:52:34 2003 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 03:52:34 -0000 Subject: OoP: Pureblood Relations - what about the Potters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66677 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eay50" wrote: > Okay, this has been troubling me since I first read the tapestry > scene. > > Sirius says that pretty much all pureblood wizards are related > somehow. If that's true, why doesn't he mention the Potters?? > > We have been told again and again that Harry is 'half-blood like > Voldemort' - that Lily was muggle-born and that James came from a > wizarding family. > > If Sirius went to all the trouble of telling Harry about his distant > connections with Molly and Arthur, why would he not mention Harry's > own family??? > > Any suggestions? > > E.A.Y. Good point. I think it was written for Sirius to tell Harry about the tapestry to make us readers aware about the Weasleys/Blacks/Malfoys relation. Which makes me wonder why Ron and the other Weasley kids weren't surprised to hear about their connection to the Malfoys, it's not like they ever mentioned it before. I mean they were all in the room at the time and listening to what Sirius had to say. Or maybe they did know and just never thought twice about it? I'm thinking what Sirius said was just an overstatement. Even if it weren't, obviously the whole wizarding world would not be represented on that tapestry- pureblood or not. After all, it's not a little town where everyone knows everyone else's name, it's a whole other largely populated world. Someone from Arhtur's family married someone from Sirius's family. If the Potters are distantly related to the Blacks, it would be VERY distant. You know that whole six degrees of seperation thing? Well, in their case I'm thinking it's about a hundred, by marriage, that's IF they are related. Making it too distant for any Potter to be on the tapestry. That's my two cents. -Maritza From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 04:06:45 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 04:06:45 -0000 Subject: Grindelwald and Badge Colors (WAS: A few questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66678 Joe in SoFla wrote: 1- What do we know about "Grindenwald?" How soon after AD defeats him does LV rise? Tom replies: Well, you might want to check out the Lexicon timeline on this one, as I'm not certain of the precise dates. I wrote a post a while back on the subject of a possible connection with Voldemort and Grindelwald, at message #50772. All we basically know about Grindelwald comes from the one reference to him from PS/SS, on the back of Harry's Chocolate Frog Card. I don't have the book handy, but I'm almost certain that you should check out the chapter where the kids are on the Hogwarts Express, and Harry gets Dumbledore's card. Based on several threads at the time, I (off-canon) concluded that because Tom Riddle was probably leaving Hogwarts around the same time as Grindelwald was defeated by Dumbledore, and because Dumbledore mentions that Riddle associated himself with the 'worst' of wizard kind, that there was probably an unadmitted connection between the two greatest Dark Wizards of the 20th century. JKR, however, has decided not to validate any such thing, at least, not yet. ;-) Joe in SoFla asked: 2- What color are the prefect badges? Tom replies: I'm guessing that they are adorned in the colors for each house. In OoP, Ch.9, p160 (US edition,) the description of Ron's badge comes when one of the twins grabs the envelope from his brother's hand and dumps it outside down: "Harry saw something scarlet and gold fall into George's palm." So, since the prefects' badges are pinned to their robes, I'm guessing that the scarlet and gold is the actual color of the badge, and not of any kind of ribbon or what-not. So, if all of the badges come in the house colors, then probably the only common denominators for the prefects' badges are their shape, size, and (unless the prefects get a wide berth for this) the location on the robes in which they are pinned. -Tom From arboyko at shaw.ca Wed Jul 2 04:08:18 2003 From: arboyko at shaw.ca (Angela Boyko) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 22:08:18 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP Molly's Maiden Name References: <20030701195050.53633.qmail@web13303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01d101c3404f$92068240$317f9244@cg.shawcable.net> No: HPFGUIDX 66679 > mongo62aa wrote: > But what if it's Malfoy? Maybe she's Lucius's sister! > Is that too far-fetched? I mean, it would help explain > some of the nastiness between Arthur and Lucius. > > Lucius thinks "argh, that damn Weasley, taking my > sister and turning her into a muggle-loving freak!" > > Anyone with me here? Um, sorry, nope. Lucius would surely have brought it up during one of the many Arthur-taunting scenes in the books. And Draco would have known who Ron was when they met on the Hogwarts Express. Angela @--- at ---@--- at ---@--- at ---@--- at ---@--- at ---@--- at ---@ "Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you will land among the stars," (attributed to Les Brown). AIM: angelamermaid MSN messenger: angelamermaid http://www.livejournal.com/users/angelamermaid/ From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 04:17:24 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 04:17:24 -0000 Subject: OOP(!): Grindelwald and Badge Colors (WAS: A few questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66681 I wrote stuff before and snipped all of it... Two things: Sorry to everyone who got this twice, oh, now three times in the digest... I tried to hit the 'back' button on my browser, and that inadvertently reposted the message. Well, I know not to do that again, eh? Second, I'm replying to my own message not because I'm crazy, but because I realized I should have included the OoP prefix... it's there now. ;-) -Tom From zanelupin at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 04:19:52 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (zanelupin) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 04:19:52 -0000 Subject: OOP: Dementors (was : Re: OOP: Petunia and Azkaban) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66682 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan" wrote: > Hi All, > > --- In HPforGrownups fire_fly107 wrote: > > I too have been wondering where Dementors originatated. Could it > > be that Dementors are not really 'beasts' at all, but some kind of > > mutated wizard? Maybe they were created by VM during the first > year, > > and after he ws defeated were recruited by the ministry of magic. > > We do know that "these evil creatures don't, by the way, breed but > grow like a fungus where there is decay." JKR October 2000 > > > Cheers, > > Dumbledad. > > PS Thanks to Pippin in post > for this > fact. Grr... I missed that when I was looking through the archives for information on the dementors. Thank you very much for the information. That suggests, then, that these (whatever they are) were not created by Lord Thingy or the MoM. Why would the Ministry create something so awful, especially something that grows in decay, which cannot be controlled? Have an action-packed, fun-filled night, KathyK (still wondering why the MoM would ever put the Dementors in charge of Azkaban if they'd ever been loyal to Voldemort) From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Wed Jul 2 04:34:41 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 00:34:41 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: That "Oh my gosh" moment. Message-ID: <15a.20aef8a5.2c33bae1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66683 The biggest "oh my gosh" moment for me (well...non-Snape moment that is!) was when Firenze came to teach! When he walked into the hallway, I yelled "Ohmigod! Firenze!" ... forgot it was two in the morning for a little bit! ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ Captain of U.S.S. SILK SHIRTS --You know, Lavender and Parvati would be in Circle Seven of Hell for those "How hott is Firenze comments"...Dante was totally harsh! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Wed Jul 2 04:41:40 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 04:41:40 -0000 Subject: OoP - Occlumency - A case for Evil!Snape? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66684 First, full disclosure, I am very skeptical of Snape and his true motives. I think it is entirely possible he is still a bad guy. Just letting you know what kinds of grains of salt you might want here. But to plunge ahead, I wonder if Snape was truly teaching Harry Occlumency the correct way. The choices to teach Occlumency were apparently Snape and Dumbledore. Dumbledore, for obvious reasons -- wanting to keep Harry away for security reasons -- couldn't be the teacher. That left Snape. We know that Harry felt weaker after each lesson. We know that, with the exception of Harry turning it around on Snape, the lessons were a failure. And even that peek into Snape's memories was not as rousing a success as you might think. Snape got into his head. Harry just managed to get him out of there. True Occlumency, as Snape describes it, is not letting the person in in the first place. But as I re-read the chapter on the OWLS, some startling things jump out at me. Pg 629, UK. Harry went to bed with his head buzzing with complex spell models and theories. No bad dreams. No incursions by V-Mort. His head was full of facts and figures and nothing happened. OK, but facts and figures are not emotional, you say? And you're right. But then, pg 638, after McGonagall is attacked and Umbridge has run Hagrid out. "He (Harry) fell asleep contemplating hideous revenges and arose from bed three hours later feeling distinctly unrested." It is possible he never really slipped into full sleep, and I grant that, but he went to bed full of hate, and nothing happened. In the other times where he had bad dreams, he actually tried to empty his mind before sleeping, and he THOUGHT he failed, but what if he had succeeded? Who truly knows whether one's mind is empty at the moment you drop off to sleep? Maybe his subconscious DID do what it was asked and emptied his mind? And what if an empty mind, not a mind full of emotion, was really the very thing V-Mort needed? Now, pg 640, when the vision of Sirius being tortured hits Harry. He is in the History of Magic OWL and he is trying to think of the answer, but cannot. He is literally DRAWING A BLANK. Bang! He gets the vision of Sirius. Now, it is possible, to throw out a counter-argument, V-Mort held off on visions to give Harry to illusion that he had spent time breaking into Grimmauld Place, capturing Sirius and dragging him off to some lair. Snape was alone with Harry in that office. And Harry had no access to Dumbledore and very limited access to Sirius and Lupin. Snape could have taught anything he wanted in that room and Harry had no way of knowing whether it was helping or hurting him. If I recall correctly, he never told Sirius, Lupin, McGonagall, or even Hermione, exactly what was going on in there, just that he was "practicing" and "working hard." Now, on to Snape himself. He has every single right to be furious with Harry for sneaking into the Penseive. Absolutely, he does. (That is, if he didn't mean Harry to do it in the first place, which I tend not to believe, but still throw out as a counter-argument.) But teaching Harry Occlumency is a direct order from D-Dore. Lupin and Sirius both say they will go to D-Dore and demand Snape resume teaching it. Yet, Snape does not resume teaching it. Yes, it is possible he was waiting for Harry to apologize, but this is not some tutoring session where Snape is volunteering his time to better a student's grades. This is what is best for the Order. Keep V-Mort out of Harry's head is crucial, according to D-Dore. Put simply, it's war and Snape, if he is truly on the side of the Order, doesn't have time to continue to hate the son a man who has been dead for 15 years. It a luxury reserved for peace. That son is the best hope, according to the prophecy, the only hope, to get rid of V-Mort. But D-Dore trusts Snape. We've been told that in nearly every single book now. Hermione ignores or mocks Ron's conspiracy theories about Snape. I have to wonder if that isn't the most obvious "hide-in-plain-sight" foreshadowing you've ever seen. Darrin -- I love the 80s moment: "The best thing about the A-Team? They couldn't hit the broad side of a barn." From rstephens at northwestern.edu Wed Jul 2 04:44:19 2003 From: rstephens at northwestern.edu (rachelbeth007) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 04:44:19 -0000 Subject: Hunks and Gits of OoP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66685 Ladies if you had just been patient with me. I have been out and about all night. Keeping with the I love the 80s theme (started by some clever witch)... I'm Rachel Elizabeth Stephens and I bring you the Hunks and Gits of OoP. Hunks: Kinglsey Shacklebolt: Tall, Dark, and Handsome Hunk Sirius Black: Dearly Departed Hunk Remus Lupin: Heartbroken Hunk Fred & George Weasley: Going Out In Style Hunks James Potter: Bullying Toerag Hunk Harry Potter: Hulk-Like Hunk Bill Weasley: You Can Give Me Private Lessons Anytime Hunk Charlie Weasley: Will You Please Come Back From Romania Hunk Dumbledore: Old But Agile Hunk Ron Weasley: Quidditch Star In The Making Hunk Neville Longbotton: Mimbulus Mimbletonia Hunk Gits: Young Severus Snape: Greying Underpants Git Lucuius Malfoy: Hope You Enjoy Your Stay In Azkaban Git Draco Malfoy: Rolf Gruber Git Cornelius Fudge: Remove Head From... Git Percy Weasley: You Should Be Ashamed of Yourself Git Michael Corner: You and the Hosepipe Deserve One Another Git Voldemort: A Second Coming Does Not a Hunk Make, Git There they are, the men of OoP. 100% HP Prime Hunk (or Git). Rachel --I love the 80s moment: "If the President got shot, I'd go around yelling 'I'm in charge!' and just see who believed me." (Kathy Griffin on Reagan getting shot) From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Wed Jul 2 04:52:31 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 00:52:31 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Snape is still BAD Message-ID: <1ce.d050f37.2c33bf0f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66686 In a message dated 7/1/03 12:20:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, magicroxx at yahoo.com writes: > Okay, there seems to be a lot of Snape lovers out there, and I > certainly can see the point to which you feel sorry for him. I have > read the book 3 times now and I think I dislike him even more. I mean > to have gone through something so horrible, to live a life so > terrible and then to add to the misery of someone who's life is so > much worse than yours. Think about Snape in terms of Harry, what > justifications does he have then? NONE. > Oryomai: Ah...my favorite debate topic: Snape! You know what? Snape's not a nice guy. *stares and waits for someone to be shocked* It's established. With Snape's disposition, temperament, and personality, it seems perfectly natural to him to cause other people pain. I'm not saying it's right. I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm saying it's who Snape is. Let the flames for that little message there. > Snape lived a miserable life, he had a horrible childhood with an > abusive father. He was a loner at school and nobody really liked him. > (I don't think it was just because he 'existed'. I can think of a few > good reasons, one being that he called Lily a mudblood. He didn't > say "I don't want help from a girl" he said MUDBLOOD. What a horrible > thing to say!! (think about that situation and someone using the > **N** word) Oryomai: I might just be crazy, but go with me here. Words can only hurt if you let them. If every time someone called me a bitch or an ass (or other things that I can't post here) I got upset, it wouldn't be worth it. Words are just words. It's what people make them mean. Now that that tirade is over: I'm sure the fact that no one liked Snape made him wanna be nice to everyone. Note the sarcasm. When people don't like you, most people become rather mean. I know. I went through six years of that. Maybe Snape thought that Lily wouldn't care what he said since she didn't like him to begin with (and she didn't react that insanely, did she?). > Harry never knew his parents and yes I think this may be better than > Snape's childhood. Snape however didn't grow up with the Dursleys. Do > you know how big a cupboard under the stairs is? Being chased up a > tree. We all know the points where Harry's life has been miserable. > Yes, he is still kool, yes he is famous. You would think though, that > we would have seen a Harry that maybe hates muggles for the way he > was treated, or some other serious downfall, but we don't. > > Also, its not like Snape doesn't know all this, he saw harry's > memories. Their lives were both horrible and never does Snape ever > say "Gee, I guess this kid's life isn't all peachy" Instead he clings > to his petty childhood hatred. He never seperates James from Harry > and he is completely oblivious to the way he effects people. He has a > completely WARPED sense of morality. I am sure Snape has done some > terrible things and we can only begin to imagine. Oryomai: It may be warped to you, but it's his sense of morality. Morality is different to everyone. Sirius cannot seperate James and Harry at times - is that okay? If so, why? Cause he's Sirius Black and Severus is Snape? That's a double standard there... You can't judge other people's emotions. I've said this before and I'll say it again. No one else has the right to decide what's petty if it doesn't involve them. Snape's anger might be petty, but until we know the whole story about their school days, we'll never know. I happen to think Hermione can have a bit of a warped sense of morality, but we won't get into that. You think he's oblivious? I think he knows damn well what he does to people. Again, not saying it's right, not saying it's wrong. It's how it is. Asi es la vida. > Most IMPORTANTLY though, in the webcast interview, JK says that all > the people who like Snape and Draco are scary. (well not exactly, I > am paraphrasing) BUT, she says the reason Snape never got the DADA > job was because Dumbledore thought it would bring out the worst in > him. She said, don't feel too sorry for Snape, he is definitely worth > keeping your eyes on. Oryomai: So we're scary? Thanks for that vote of support...way to be nice there. I take that very personally. *Too* sorry also means, to me, that you can feel sorry for him. I'm sure he fought back. I would be shocked if he didn't. He's always worth keeping your eyes one. A final thought: How did you prove Snape is "bad", huh? I didn't really see it anywhere... ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ --Who is sure she offended someone in this post but quite frankly doesn't give a damn - she's a "scary" Snape fan, remember? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Wed Jul 2 04:53:56 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 04:53:56 -0000 Subject: OOP: That "Oh my gosh" moment. In-Reply-To: <15a.20aef8a5.2c33bae1@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66687 Talia: > > --You know, Lavender and Parvati would be in Circle Seven of Hell for those > "How hott is Firenze comments"...Dante was totally harsh! > > You know, I was actually proud of Lavender and Parvati then. It's the first sign of an open mind we've seen in five books. :) Well, maybe the second, Parvati DID fix her sister up with Ron. Darrin -- Padma was totally Parvati's wingman! From rstephens at northwestern.edu Wed Jul 2 04:57:54 2003 From: rstephens at northwestern.edu (rachelbeth007) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 04:57:54 -0000 Subject: Hunks and Gits of GoF Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66688 I'm Rachel Elizabeth Stephens, and I bring you the Hunks and Gits of GoF. Hunks: Sirius Black: "Call me Snuffles" Hunk Cedric Diggory: Hogwarts Champion Hunk Harry Potter: Hungarian Horntail Hunk Viktor Krum: Quidditch Supa-Star Hunk Bill Weasley: Veela-Snagging Hunk Charlie Weasley: Dragon Wrangling Hunk Severus Snape: Double Agent Hunk Gits: Wormtail: Prosthetic Hands Are *So* Star Wars Git Dudley Dursley: To Much Junk In His Trunk Git Percy: Brown-Nosing Git Cornelius Fudge: In Denial Git Ludo Bagman: Leprechaun Gold Git Crouch!Moody: "Unforgivable" Git Igor Karkaroff: Running For His Mommy Git Ron: Jealous Git Lucius Malfoy: Confirming What We Suspected All Along Git Draco Malfoy: Twitchy Little Ferret Git Crabbe and Goyle: Two Generations of Gits Voldemort: Re-Embodied Git There they are, the men of GoF. 100% USDA Prime Hunk (or Git). Rachel -- I love the 80s moment: "To think that it wasn't them singing "Girl you know it's true"...Why it breaks one's heart." (Michael Ian Black on Milli Vanilli) p.s. Fear not, ladies, I'll be making one for each book. Darrin and I are dedicated to our "I love HP" tribute and will be cranking out more lists soon. From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Jul 2 04:58:28 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 00:58:28 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: That "Oh my gosh" moment. Message-ID: <12.32f88d89.2c33c074@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66689 One of my Oh. My. Gosh. moments came when Ron said that he didn't care if his teabags spelled out Die, Ron Die he was still chucking them in the bin were they belonged. My thoughts went to all of those Ron is a seer posts. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ccm at tic.com Wed Jul 2 05:04:23 2003 From: ccm at tic.com (ccm50_2000) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 05:04:23 -0000 Subject: Why are some poor, others rich in the WW? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66690 I've been curious about this for a while. If wizards and witches can conjure things into existence, why is anyone poor in the wizarding world? Why does Lupin have a tattered, patched robe? Why couldn't he conjure himself a new robe? Why does Ron have to buy a used dress robe instead of having his parents create a new one for him? Why does Molly make Christmas sweaters? Why not create them magically? Dumbledore can conjure a chair to sit in so why can't wizards conjure up whatever they need - food, clothing, shelter, money? Just curious. Charlotte From judy at judyshapiro.com Wed Jul 2 05:10:07 2003 From: judy at judyshapiro.com (Judy) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 05:10:07 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: If You Joined on June 30th Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66691 For all members who joined on the 30th June: Usually, all new members get a Personal Welcoming Email from their List Elf. However, things have been so busy here, that some of the List Elves (such as me) have not been able to send out their personal welcoming emails lately! So, if you joined on June 30th, I am your List Elf. Please feel free to contact me with any questions, comments, concerns, etc. My email address is judy@ judyshapiro.com (omit the space.) Thanks very much! Judy Serenity (aka "Judey Elf") for the Admin Team From atroposgryffin at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 05:13:06 2003 From: atroposgryffin at yahoo.com (Susan Smith) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 05:13:06 -0000 Subject: OoP: HELP ME ON BODE Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66692 SPOILER > > > > > > I fear the following line of questions will sound stupid-but I have lent my copy of Oop to friend so I cannot research this-please help? Who are Sturgis Podmore and Broderick Bode (I may have the names slightly wrong)? Are they both MoM workers who are also Death Eaters? Or just MoM workers who tried to get prophecy, and could not? Was Bode killed because he is good but the imperius curse was wearing off and he would he made a mess for LV's side? I only ask because I recently re-read POA and during the Gry./Slith. Quidditch match their is a young Bode male playing. I am trying to sort out if we actually have a family containing Slytherins that falls toward the "good" side of the upcoming war. This could be a strong "clue" that there are supporters of the Order of the Phoenix, Potter and all that from all 4 houses. Atropos G. Thanks Susan From jsmithqwert at hotmail.com Wed Jul 2 05:13:47 2003 From: jsmithqwert at hotmail.com (jsmithqwert) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 05:13:47 -0000 Subject: Why are some poor, others rich in the WW? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66693 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ccm50_2000" wrote: > I've been curious about this for a while. If wizards and witches can > conjure things into existence, why is anyone poor in the wizarding > world? Why does Lupin have a tattered, patched robe? Why couldn't he > conjure himself a new robe? Why does Ron have to buy a used dress robe > instead of having his parents create a new one for him? Why does Molly > make Christmas sweaters? Why not create them magically? Dumbledore can > conjure a chair to sit in so why can't wizards conjure up whatever > they need - food, clothing, shelter, money? Just curious. > Charlotte This response may run a little short on why, but JKR has said in interviews that you cannot magic yourself wealthy. I believe that it is the long-standing opinion of many that conjuring lasts only briefly and in direct relation to the talent of the wizard; therefore, you could not permanently conjur yourself new robes. That said, why not continuously re-conjur things? I think that there is some finite level of magical resourse that has to replenish over time. This is a common element of magic throughout all genres and may help explain why some wizards are more powerful than others and why wizards do not just constantly do things magically. Additionally, IMHO, much of what we the readers perceive as conjuring may actually be something like instant summoning. For example, when Mrs. Weasley cooks, surely she doesn't conjur food - it would disappear inside people's bodies. I think that she may instantly remove it from somewhere and cause it to appear in the pan or shoot from her wand. Likewise for Dumbledore's chairs at the MoM hearing in OoP. It sounded to me like the chair he conjured may have actually been inst-summoned from his own office many miles away. The descriptions of his office furnishings and the chair seem to be similar. There is cannonical precedent for such inst-summoning. We have seen that the food on the tables in the great hall is laid out on tables below in the kitchen and then reappears on the house tables above as if vanishing through nothing. jsmithqwert From ElfinChildLB at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 04:07:07 2003 From: ElfinChildLB at yahoo.com (Lea) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 04:07:07 -0000 Subject: OOP: Neville Apparating? (WAS Re: Scary Thought) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66694 > Tom replies: > Although I don't have my copy of GoF handy, I was under the > impression that the Apparation test was taken after a student > graduates from Hogwarts. [snip] > To that, we can add two canon points: one, you can't Apparate on the > Hogwarts grounds, so it's unlikely that the students could practice > for the exam at Hogwarts, which suggests that they learn how to > Apparate somewhere else; two, the tests take place on level six of > the Ministry, at the "Apparation Test Center." (OoP, US edition, > Ch.7, p129) [snip some more] Me: I thought the Apparation test could be taken upon reaching majority... Fred and George turned 17 in GoF, and they apparate all through the summer ("You've just Apparated on my knees!") You're right, though, since you can't Apparate or Disapparate at Hogwarts, you can't learn these skills at Hogwarts. It would kinda be like Dad teaching Junior how to drive then, huh? But we've never seen someone learn how. Ron and Hermione turn 17 during their sixth year, though, and I'm willing to bet that Hermione takes her test as soon as she can. Harry turns 17 a month before he goes back for seventh year, so he could conceivably learn before he goes back--that would make it interesting to control him during that month, wouldn't it? ~Lea~ From atroposgryffin at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 04:46:01 2003 From: atroposgryffin at yahoo.com (Susan Smith) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 04:46:01 -0000 Subject: OoP Molly's Maiden Name In-Reply-To: <01d101c3404f$92068240$317f9244@cg.shawcable.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66695 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Angela Boyko wrote: > > mongo62aa wrote: > > > > But what if it's Malfoy? Maybe she's Lucius's sister! > > Is that too far-fetched? I mean, it would help explain > > some of the nastiness between Arthur and Lucius. > > > > Lucius thinks "argh, that damn Weasley, taking my > > sister and turning her into a muggle-loving freak!" > > > > Anyone with me here? > > Um, sorry, nope. Lucius would surely have brought it up during one of the > many Arthur-taunting scenes in the books. And Draco would have known who Ron > was when they met on the Hogwarts Express. > > Angela Molly could be in the Malfoy line somewhere and Lucius knows it but does not know her well (distant cousin or several times removed) As far as Draco knowing Ron, I have first cousins I have never met, Sirius Black did not know his cousin Bellatrix well so it does not seem unlikely that if Molly was a second or third cousin on the Malfoy die, and a poor relation that Draco would not have known Weasley except by reputation (ie: hand me down robes, red hair- Wesley). Just a thought. Atropos G. From tcinc at centurytel.net Wed Jul 2 05:23:32 2003 From: tcinc at centurytel.net (xnavyguy73) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 05:23:32 -0000 Subject: OOP: SPOILERS: Sirius/legal things In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66696 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dreambeliever001" wrote: > "a14fiesta" wrote: > > I was just wondering who will be Harry's guardian now that Sirius > > has gone ... > > And what happens to Sirius's property: there's Grimmauld Place, the > > money in his vault - and what about the house he said he bought when > > he was 17 (not to mention the flying motorbike...) > > By leaving it to Harry or Dumbledore, nobody would have to find out > about the Order. > > (Diana, very much still missing Sirius A "will" still seems like the only way to reconcile the property left by Sirus, and I do believe that leaving all his property to Harry or Dumbeldore is the only way it's going to work, because having the Order as the Benificery would bring unwanted attention to them. Of course the love he had for Harry would also be all the reason needed for him to leave his possesions to him. But I'm still hoping that he or Harry finds a way to get him back, >From the other side of the vail. Please don't let Harry lose yet another Father/Guardian. Missing Sirus here as well... From ChaserChick at hotmail.com Wed Jul 2 05:27:43 2003 From: ChaserChick at hotmail.com (Liz Sager) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:27:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP: HELP ME ON BODE Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66697 Susan wrote: >I fear the following line of questions will sound stupid-but I have >lent my copy of Oop to friend so I cannot research this-please help? > >Who are Sturgis Podmore and Broderick Bode (I may have the names >slightly wrong)? Are they both MoM workers who are also Death >Eaters? Or just MoM workers who tried to get prophecy, and could not? >Was Bode killed because he is good but the imperius curse was wearing >off and he would he made a mess for LV's side? Broderick Bode was pointed out to Harry by Arthur at the Quidditch World Cup as an Unspeakable. (At least, I would assume that it is the same person.) As far as I could tell, Bode was Imperius'd, but probably got as far as touching the prophecy and went mad, because I think I remember reading that there is some sort of protection on the orbs in the DoM where the only people who can retrieve a Prophecy are the ones about whom it was made. The Devil's Snare in St. Mungo's was to keep him from talking when he got better, I would say. >I only ask because I recently re-read POA and during the Gry./Slith. >Quidditch match their is a young Bode male playing. I am trying to >sort out if we actually have a family containing Slytherins that >falls toward the "good" side of the upcoming war. This could be a >strong "clue" that there are supporters of the Order of the Phoenix, >Potter and all that from all 4 houses. The Quidditch player in question is named Bole, not Bode. Very close, though. :) Liz _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From awillia2 at gladstone.uoregon.edu Wed Jul 2 05:52:04 2003 From: awillia2 at gladstone.uoregon.edu (Aesha Williams) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 22:52:04 -0700 Subject: OoP, Molly's maiden name References: <1057095704.9646.96514.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <009f01c3405e$11984080$b8d1df80@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 66698 Michal- I suggested this in my post, entitled "OoP: Molly's Relations". If you want to read it in full, you can go the HPfGU homepage on Yahoo!Groups, go to the messages tab, and enter the title of the post in the search box. I'm not sure of the number... well, let me go look. It's post # 65942. Also, someone suggested they didn't think this could be because Molly was a Gryffindor whereas Lucius was Slytherin... well, in another post, I suggested that part of the reason Sirius' mother hated him so much was not just because he was a bad son or didn't have "proper wizarding pride", but because he was sorted into Gryffindor instead of Slytherin, she knew he wasn't going to be the son she wanted him to be. Perhaps it was the same sort of split in the Malfoy family between Mama Weasley, her folks and her brother, Lucius (and perhaps other siblings). The problem with this (which I may have noted in a previous post) is the fact that their cousin was a muggle- so either there was an actual wizard/muggle marriage... or a squib was born. Which begs another question- do Squibs get the same treatment as Muggles? Worse? Better? Aesha [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed Jul 2 06:45:59 2003 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 23:45:59 -0700 Subject: SidAndMartyKrofft!Draco (was: Redeemable Draco???) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8637408897.20030701234559@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66699 IMHO Draco et. al. have become so much "cookie-cutter" baddies that they would probably be more at home in a Sid and Marty Krofft show... (Let's see -- Draco = Funky Rat; Pansy and Millicent = Orson and Seymour, Crabbe and Goyle = Blurp and Slurp.) :) Sorry -- Just thought I'd offer a "70's moment"... :) -- Dave From u3232865 at student.anu.edu.au Wed Jul 2 05:27:48 2003 From: u3232865 at student.anu.edu.au (colbernays) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 05:27:48 -0000 Subject: OotP: Hogsmeade in books 6 and 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66700 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David Paterson" wrote: > Here's a thought: > > At the end of PoA, Sirius signed a form permitting Harry to go to > Hogsmeade on weekends. > > With Sirius gone beyond the veil, does that mean Harry needs a new > permisison slip? Will he spend the first few chapters in book 6 > sweet-talking Vernon into signing a new permission slip? > > === > > Recursive: adj. see Recursive I think he'll get by. In PoA Harry was told 'no slip, no trip'; however I got the impression that had a madman not been on the loose trying to kill Harry this might of been overlooked, and possibly even if Harry had managed to get a permission slip from Vernon they still might have said no due to safety concerns. I think Harry'll get by just fine in 6&7, OoP showed us just how cool McG is (man I hate Umbridge!) And in book 7 Harry will be of age and can sign his own form. col (Still wondering how JK manged to write an 800 page book that didn't contain a substantial plot, but loved it all the same) From ElfinChildLB at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 05:30:35 2003 From: ElfinChildLB at yahoo.com (Lea) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 05:30:35 -0000 Subject: Why are some poor, others rich in the WW? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66701 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ccm50_2000" wrote: > I've been curious about this for a while. If wizards and witches can > conjure things into existence, why is anyone poor in the wizarding > world? Lea: I can't remember if JK said this or if it was in a book, but I'm sure I read that conjured items disappear after a while. For instance, Bill (maybe Charlie) conjured tablecloths out of thin air in GoF... but it doesn't really matter if tablecloths vanish, now does it? I also have read the (very appropriate) explanation that since the WW is commercial like the MW, the conjuring of everything would wreck the market. It really doesn't make much sense to me, though, why Lupin couldn't make his robes look new, etc. ~Lea~ From Alissa_Black at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 05:32:15 2003 From: Alissa_Black at yahoo.com (Alissa) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 05:32:15 -0000 Subject: Tear-Jerking Moments in the Series -- Some OoP and relation to Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66702 This is a tearjerker that's even more so after OoP. PoA: "What was there to be gained by fighting the most evil wisard who has ever existed?" said Black with terrible fury in his face. "Only innocent lives, Peter!" "You don't understand!" whined Pettigrew. "He would have killed me, Sirius!" "THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!" roared Black "DIED RATHER THAN BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!" And reading this now I'm ready to cry all over again. Sirius was always ready to make the sacrafice for those he loved. He dies rather than betray his friends, or leave them stranded while he saves himself, and sits pretty at home - just as he accuses Peter of doing. He has such strong convictions and motivations, and it wasn't all just talk. He *did* die for his friends. He died for love. He died rather than betray who he was, because if Sirius had not gone he would have suffered a death none the less. His pride would have died. Sirius could not stay at home and still be the same person, because it goes against everything Sirius in him. The situation alone killed him, and while I'd rather have a sad emotionally ransacked alive Sirius than a dead one, I think that inaction would have made it impossible for him to live with himself, living boared up in his parents house had been killing him slowly for a year before he actually died. He always blamed himself for the death of Harry's parents, why did he let Peter be their secretkeeper, as James' bestfriend he could never pardon himself from this. In the end he repays the debt the only way he can, he gives his own life to save their son. His death was in my opinion needless and perhaps in vain, but it was true to his beliefs and something he would have done again if he thought for one second it would save Harry. And that alone I can take solace in. *Sniffle* ... or rather.. *Snuffle*... ~Alissa (the newbie who wants to live in denial of Sirius' untimely death, but couldn't let the oportunity to pay homage pass) From tcinc at centurytel.net Wed Jul 2 05:50:00 2003 From: tcinc at centurytel.net (xnavyguy73) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 05:50:00 -0000 Subject: OOP :The Guilt Not Mentioned Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66703 I had a thought as I finished OOP. Harry had the mirror that he could have used to contact Sirus, although he didn't know it till he opend the package. When he couldn't talk to sirus throught the fire in Umbridge's office he could have used the mirror, to make sure that Sirus wasn't in the Order's HQ. After the events that lead to Sirus' death, Harry found the mirror and realized what it could do. He must have been hit with guilt about rushing into the MOM-Dept. of Mysteries, and therefore making Sirus and the others come to his rescue. Even if it's not expressly or plainly spelled out in the text, I could only imagine how I would have felt about this situation. BBSB----"Bring Back Sirus Black" Hasn't Harry suffered enough loss From sladjanast at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 05:47:53 2003 From: sladjanast at yahoo.com (sladjanast) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 05:47:53 -0000 Subject: HPOOP Why are some poor, others rich in the WW (and some burning questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66704 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ccm50_2000" wrote: > I've been curious about this for a while. If wizards and witches can > conjure things into existence, why is anyone poor in the wizarding > world? Why does Lupin have a tattered, patched robe? Why couldn't he > conjure himself a new robe? This has been bothering me from book one. However, I have just finished OOP and have so many questions, theories, doubts, reactinos, that I just don't know where to start. Here is a couple, though, and I will be really greatful to see what you all think. Also, I do apologize if this has already been on the list, I could not read carefully all the new posts, sorry! 1 I'm sure someone has already noticed: no explanation of the triumphant gleam from GoF! Or have I missed it? Maybe it is there, only given in a very subtle way, and will come up when I reread the book? 2 How come Dumbledor does not do something to stop the horrible, most evil, truly terrifying Bellatrix? If not to stop her from killing Sirius (and oh! how sad... 11 years in Azkaban, and then living in virtual prison only to finish like that! My hart is broken, poor bloke had no life) then at least to stop her from fleeing like that? I have to say I was really appalled with Bellatrix. Frightened, almost. Worse than Voldemort, this one. And how come all the Aurors could not defeat and completely subdue the Deatheaters? And with Dumbledore there? I realize it is probably important for the plot that Bellatrix survives (how odd that her husband is not there) but, how horribly unfair! 3 The Death Eaters on the whole are a bit confusing. First of all, not all of them even think of using Avada Kedavra... Dolohov, supposedly really evil, jinxes Neville into tap-dance? It's almost a joke! Why, though? I'm not saying there is something terribly important behind this, just wandering what you all think. 4 What would be the proper way to finish off the opponent who is about to kill you without using an illegal curse? 5 Finally, I am absolutelly impressed with some of the predictions on this list. First of all, I remember clearly someone wondering about the first prophecy Trewloney made. I remember it stated how Dumbledore tells Harry in PoA that if Trelawney really made a true prediction, it brings the sum of her true predictions to two, and then someone (awfully sorry I can't remember who, or when, for that matter) wondered about what might be the first Trelawney's predictions that was fulfilled. At the time I thought it to be completely irrelevant! I also have to say that I loved the book. Hopefully we will see more of Looney Lovegood, she was such a great counterpart to Umbridge, in tearms of new characters. Off to reading all the posts, and once again, sorry if there is nothing new in this one. Sladjana From boggles at earthlink.net Wed Jul 2 07:37:53 2003 From: boggles at earthlink.net (Jennifer Boggess Ramon) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 02:37:53 -0500 Subject: OoP: Inheritance, Snape's garments, Dementors, Pensieves, and Silver In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66705 *sacrificial spoiler-free line* At 1:30 PM +0000 7/1/03, phoenixmum wrote: >Given that the house has been the headquarters of the Order, >and that Kreacher knows too much for it to be safe for him to go into >service for these relations, I wondered if, as a safeguard, Sirius >would have willed the property to either Harry, as the one he cares >most about, someone in the Order like Lupin (who could use the >money/living accomadations, and also a "brother" of sorts), or to >someone like Tonks, if it would need to be a blood relation, albeit a >distant one, for Kreacher to transfer loyalty. Sirius could have made >a will a long time before, when the Harry was a baby and Voldemort >was not yet defeated, or more recently. The time frame could affect >who he selected to inherit. If we discover that Sirius has never made a will, I'm going to be highly disappointed in him, although that sort of overconfidence isn't entirely out of character. I would have hoped that everyone who was in the first incarnation of the Order of the Phoenix would have made out their wills, just in case - after all, if there's any possibility that how have in your possession something important to the Order when the Death Eaters get the drop on you, you want it to go to safe hands. If Sirius did make out a will then, and hasn't changed it since leaving Azkaban, I would imagine it names the other Magical Mischief-Makers - James, Lupin, and Peter - as heirs, as he wouldn't want it to return to his family and his brother might well still have been living when he wrote it. As Peter is still legally dead, Lupin would likely inhert the property. If Sirius made out a will more recently, it probably names Harry as his heir, although Lupin is still a possibility, as is Tonks (or possibly her mother, Andromeda). If Harry were to inherit the property, though, we would then have him faced with the moral dilemma of owning a house-elf. Hermione might well not speak to him for days. At 5:39 AM +0000 7/1/03, phoebesophia wrote: >In GoF -- the chapter in which Harry is caught in the >disappearing step and drops the egg -- Severus appears wearing a grey >nightshirt. Suddenly I am struck that the two times dear Severus's, >um . . . lingerie, is mentioned we discover it is grey. Perhaps he >simply won't wear light colors? Perhaps he does his own laundry - doesn't trust the house-elves to get the potion-stains out - and doesn't separate his whites from everything else. White underwear washed with, say, black jeans will turn grey after one washing. Or perhaps he's in mourning for someone. Granted, it's difficult to stay in mourning for over 20 years, but people have done it. Also, in reference to the greasy hair - those of you blessed with good hair will perhaps never understand this, but it is possible to have hair so naturally oily that even if it is carefully washed in the morning, it's still greasy-looking by evening. Humidity (such as a damp dungeon) and wet heat (such as a room full of simmering potions cauldrons) will exacerbate the problem. Assuming that Snape is not vain enough to spend every spare minute combing Artemis's Anti-Oil Elixir through his hair, greasy locks may be the best he can manage. We've never heard Harry complain about him smelling rank, and Harry takes every opportunity to complain about Snape that he can, so I doubt the issue is that he doesn't wash it. At 7:56 PM +0200 7/1/03, Carolin M?nkemeyer wrote, concerning Dementors: >But even created creatures , or those which seem likely to be created, are >mentioned in "Fantastic beasts", e.g. the Quintapeds or the Acrumatula.... > >There must be a more "dark" reason why they are not mentioned.... None of the "beings" have entries in FBaWTFT - house elves, goblins, giants, hags, and vampires are not listed, for instance. So, either the Muggle version is highly edited, or creatures who are listed as Beings are not in the book, it being a compendium only of Beasts. I tend to prefer the latter explanation (although both may well be true). That would indicate that Dementors, whether created or not, are Beings rather than Beasts. This, in turn, implies that they are intelligent, at least as intelligent as giants. At 9:55 PM +0000 7/1/03, Jeremy wrote: >Also remember that the point of the pensive is to store >memories, which are not always accurate. It is entirely possible >that Snape didn't remember the events EXACTLY as they played out in >reality. Why is everyone so big on doubting the Pensieve? OoP, Ch. 37, p. 840 US hardback - Dumbledore explaining to Harry why the prophecy-ball's shattering isn't that important: "The thing that smashed was merely the record of the prophecy kept by the Department of Mysteries. But the prophecy was made to somebody, and that person has the means of recalling it perfectly." Dumbledore then puts the memory in the Pensieve and "plays" it for Harry. It certainly sounds like a Pensieve plays back a memory "perfectly" - either it records what actually happened, or it records one's sensory perceptions of what happened without the distortion of interpretation. I don't see Dumbledore's statement allowing for it to show a distorted version; it either showed exactly what she said, or exactly what he heard - not a version colored by his feelings about Sibyll and divination in general, or by his feelings about Harry and (possibly) Neville. I don't see why it would work differently for Snape. At 6:26 PM -0400 7/1/03, rayheuer3 at aol.com wrote: >Generally, silver is poisonous to the werewolf no matter which form he/she is >in. Sometimes the effect is greater on the wolf form. This is definitely >one of those things that JKR can write any way she likes, so we'll >have to wait for canon on it. Well, the Black goblets are solid silver, at least according to Sirius, and Lupin drinks out of one of them in Ch. 5. At 2:21 PM -0700 7/1/03, Wendy St John wrote: >Who tried making an smiley/emoticon with fangs >:-[ -- - Boggles, aka J. C. B. Ramon boggles(at)earthlink.net "It is not knowledge, but the act of learning, not possession but the act of getting there, which grants the greatest enjoyment. " - Gauss, in a Letter to Bolyai, 1808. From ajlboston at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 08:11:02 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 08:11:02 -0000 Subject: OOP: Harry's emotional life Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66706 ya da da dum de blah blah etc etc ya da ya I have finally recalled and dare mention what irked me during this book that I thoroughly enjoyed reading. I was thinking how some people were disappointed that after hearing that Moody and Lupin would return, those characters did not do much this time. But recall, Lupin had all of Book 3 and Moody had all of Book 4 (well, no, but at least that was an impersonation of him...). Sirius, too, this time, seemed mentioned less than I would expect (bear with me) but while reading, I was most struck by the case of Cho. Book 4's description said that Harry 'wants to dream about his crush... and perhaps do more than dream.' In that book, he is mentioned thinking about her several times, imagining showing off, noticing her, etc. despite all that's on his mind during the books. Here, while we know there is a lot going on to describe in this novel, I am surprised at how little Harry's thoughts are mentioned of these other characters-- it's mainly Ron and Hermione that he speaks to. Even if he found it rather boring having only Hermione as a best friend temporarily in Book 4, even if he is supposed to still fancy Cho, here he speaks with Hermione and Ron. Most of the time I saw no mention of his thinking or dreaming about Cho and only those interactions of speaking or doing when he did meet with her. He also must miss Sirius, and be glad to see Lupin again, but I didn't see much description of their emotional interaction while Harry was at 12 Grimmauld or his thoughts about them while he was at school (though of course he thought of Sirius more often than Lupin). Are we supposed to assume that Harry is bonding with S. and L. in those holiday and preschool weeks at Grimmauld and it's just offstage because we are busy learning about other stuff? Are we to assume that Harry is madly dreaming of Cho all the time he's not being mindmessedwith by Voldemort, speaking at length to Hermione and Ron, studying for O.W.L.s, in detention, or... Despite how busy he is, when one is very busy and fancies someone one still manages to think of the someone often. Did they not speak at all except on the dates? (Other students seem to converse during meals and offtime.) No wonder they feel stilted! No wonder Cho is jealous of the soul time Hermione gets, like Ron, if the trio is together and discussing things so much more than a couple. I am sorry about Sirius's wasted life, I love Lupin, and I was glad for Harry after all the fuss in Book 4 that he was given a chance with Cho, but I was left with the feeling that he wasn't giving them enough of his emotional contribution/heart/thoughts/whatever. (Yes, I know he is preoccupied and feeling self absorbed, but... it seems given that these characters are important to him, yet there were not as many words fleshing out this concept to back it up.) Or is it all offstage? A.J. From tigerfan41 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 09:26:53 2003 From: tigerfan41 at yahoo.com (Darrell Harris) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 02:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 3173 In-Reply-To: <1057136584.3530.54153.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030702092653.59863.qmail@web10005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66707 Message: 2 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 05:47:53 -0000 From: "sladjanast" Subject: Re: HPOOP Why are some poor, others rich in the WW (and some burning questions) --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ccm50_2000" wrote: > 2 How come Dumbledor does not do something to stop the horrible, most evil, truly terrifying Bellatrix? If not to stop her from killing Sirius (and oh! how sad... 11 years in Azkaban, and then living in virtual prison only to finish like that! My hart is broken, poor bloke had no life) then at least to stop her from fleeing like that? I have to say I was really appalled with Bellatrix. Frightened, almost. Worse than Voldemort, this one. And how come all the Aurors could not defeat and completely subdue the Deatheaters? And with Dumbledore there? I realize it is probably important for the plot that Bellatrix survives (how odd that her husband is not there) but, how horribly unfair! 3 The Death Eaters on the whole are a bit confusing. First of all, not all of them even think of using Avada Kedavra... Dolohov, supposedly really evil, jinxes Neville into tap-dance? It's almost a joke! Why, though? I'm not saying there is something terribly important behind this, just wandering what you all think. Her husband and his brother were both mentioned in during the battle. DD cast a spell to stop her escape she deflected it. Do all DE's have the ability to AK? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From rarpsl at optonline.net Wed Jul 2 04:51:21 2003 From: rarpsl at optonline.net (Robert A. Rosenberg) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:51:21 -0400 Subject: OoP - Harry's Chances of Surviving Book 7 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66708 As most of us here know, during the JKR Webcast one of the questions was about JKR writing a book/books about Harry post-graduation to which she replied (to the effect) "What makes you think he will survive?". I have not yet read OoP so you must take these observations based on my old having read the first 4 books. If anything happens/is-said in OoP to invalidate these comments, I apologize. I do not know what has already been said here about this topic but most of the news reports only report the shock from the audience at this reply (and do not analyze the reply itself). In my Opinion, a BETTER response would have been to ask "What makes you think Harry lives though Book 7?". While at first glance they seem to be different ways of asking the same question, they are not. The former starts with the assumption that there is no reason to think that Harry is going to die as a result of the final battle with LV. The latter starts with the assumption that Harry will need to die to neutralize LV. Given the Series Set-Up and standard Mythos (which the books are a retelling of), the latter is the usual result. To combat an "Ultimate Evil" you need an "Ultimate Good" and one will rise to meet this need (the Cosmic Balance "Rule"). The "Final Battle" in this type of Mythos requires one of the following outcomes: 1)The two adversaries Kill/Neutralize each other in the Battle [Thus Preserving the Balance]; 2) That the Good Warrior dies as the result of the Battle (ie: From wounds, loss of Life Energy, etc.); or 3) That since there is no more need for the Ultimate Good, S/He must be removed to keep the Cosmic Balance and prevent the rise of a newer "Ultimate Evil" triggered by the continued existence of the "Ultimate Good" (the "My Job Here is Done - Good-Bye" Scenario/Rule). I know I might be being too simplistic in this analysis but the above tends to be the way the plotlines are written. What do others think? From atroposgryffin at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 06:02:47 2003 From: atroposgryffin at yahoo.com (Susan Smith) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 06:02:47 -0000 Subject: OoP: HELP ME ON BODE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66709 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Liz Sager" wrote:...The Quidditch player in question is named Bole, not Bode. Very close, though. :) Liz Thanks!-So it appears we still do not know of any "good" Slytherins- Eh? Susan From atroposgryffin at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 06:26:16 2003 From: atroposgryffin at yahoo.com (Susan Smith) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 06:26:16 -0000 Subject: OoP: Molly's relations In-Reply-To: <00d901c33ee4$865e52e0$c6d0df80@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66710 >SPOILER > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Aesha Williams" wrote in POST #65942: Anyway- my whole point in sending this email was because I wanted to note that quite a few people, when discussing Molly's relationship with Sirius, are saying she's a maternal cousin. HP-Lexicon shows Black family tree and posts Molly on maternal side based on OOP description and tidbits from JKR interviews. Agree cousin by marriage allows alot of leeway everyway. Also, it's never been said- that I can recall, at least, though it's been probably at least 6 months since I've read any HP with the exception of OoP- that *Molly* has red hair as well. She does-cannot find exact reference in SS or CoS yet (will still look) but in POA, pg 9 (American) they describe the photo in the Daily Prophet of the family in frot of a pyramid as "Plump little Mrs. Weasley; tall, balding Mr. Weasley; six sons; and one daughter, all (though the black-and-white picture didn't show it) with flaming red hair." There are a lot a posts making a strong argument for Mrs. Weasley being related to either the Malfoys, or on the maternal side. Some speculations even that she is related to Lilly Potter by marriage (distant cousin) and NOT blood, so than JKR can say Dursley's are only family Harry has left because their his only blood relatives. I guess we wait to find out later. Or could be a red herring tossed by JKR letting us know that Molly and Arthur are related to Sirius. Atropos G. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 09:33:21 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 09:33:21 -0000 Subject: OOP Why are some poor... (and some burning questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66711 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sladjanast" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ccm50_2000" wrote: > > > > Why couldn't he conjure himself a new robe? ...edited > > This has been bothering me from book one. > bboy_mn replies: Well, conjuring has been explained. To make something real, it has to be made OUT OF something real. Mrs. Weasley's sweaters are probably knit by magic as seen in the movie and as seen in the latest book, but they are knit from real yarn. Now they guy who makes the yarn probably uses magic to make it, but he makes it out of real wool, and the farmer who raises the sheep that provide the wool probably uses a lot of magic in farming. But in the end, everything real must be made from real raw material. You can create something from nothing, but it eventually returns to nothing. Think how cool it would be to eat all the conjured ice cream you wanted. You could eat gallons and accumulate next to ZERO calories. (Yummy!) Could you conjure new robes? Yes, but an hour or two after creating them, they would disappear. When that happens, hopefully, you will be wearing real underwear, or find yourself rapidly approaching a nudist camp. > 1 no explanation of the triumphant gleam from GoF! > If it's there, I missed it too, but that seems like a mystery for the end of the book. When Voldemort is resolved, the mystery of the gleam will be resolved. > 2 How come Dumbledor does not do something to stop the horrible, > most evil, truly terrifying Bellatrix? Yes, Mrs. Lestange is a truly horrible woman, and I think setting her up as this hideously evil person, is the set up for something later in the story. I sure eventually somebody will do something about her, but for now, she is there for the sole purpose of us hating her. > > 3 The Death Eaters on the whole are a bit confusing. First of all, > not all of them even think of using Avada Kedavra... I'm usually pretty good about speculating on things like this, but I have to wonder too about some of the curses used in the 'fire fight' in the Department of Mysteries. One possible explanation is that for a less than powerful wizard, the heat of battle doesn't allow for sufficient concentration to allow them to throw death curses right and left. An illustration: we already know that Harry can throw a serious Patronus charm, and that he can do it with ease. But in the alley in Little Whinging, he makes two marginal attempt before he is able to sufficiently focus and create the necessary state of mind to do it right. The Death Curse has to be a lot harder than the Petronus charm. So I speculate that in a period of calm, with lack of distraction, and/or with sufficient time to focus and concentrate, lots of wizards can cast a Death Curse. But in the heat of the moment, when it's curse or be cursed, it's frequently easier and much FASTER to cast a simple disabling curse than it is to cast a powerful focused Death Curse. > > 4 What would be the proper way to finish off the opponent who is > about to kill you without using an illegal curse? > Reductor curse will blast through solid object; that should do it. A Stunning curse at close range would probably have a lethal impact if the wizard has sufficient emotion behind it. Many of these curse, like the Stunning Curse are modulated by the wizard's emotions and intent. Ron lets Harry stun him several times, and he just falls over. In GoF, Dumbledore stuns fake!Moody through a solid door. The stunner blast a locked door open and still has sufficient power not just to render fake!Moody unconcious but throw him backwards. - Quote GoF - (My emphasis added) "Stupefy!" There was a blinding flash of red light, and with a great SPLINTERING and CRASHING, the door of Moody's office was BLASTED APART-- Moody was thrown backwards onto the office floor. - end quote - If Harry had been using THAT Stunning Curse on Ron, then Ron would have been seriously injured, and potentially dead. If it could splinter, crash, and blast apart a door, just think what it would do to your chest. So I think the point is that with many generally powerful curses, if a powerful wizard puts a powerful effort and powerful intent behind it, they can become dangerous and potentially deadly. > 5 Finally, I am absolutelly impressed with some of the predictions > on this list. ...edited.. > > Sladjana Well, I will agree that we did have some amazingly accurate prediction as well as many that were at least in the vicinity. But on the other hand, we predicted every possible event under the sun, we were bound to get a few right. Just a thought. bboy_mn From atroposgryffin at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 06:30:30 2003 From: atroposgryffin at yahoo.com (Susan Smith) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 06:30:30 -0000 Subject: OotP:Spoilers-Recurring minor characters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66712 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Christi" wrote: > Does anyone else think it's peculiar that Madam Marsh has been on > the Night Bus both times Harry's ridden it, especially as it seems > to effect her so badly? > > "'Best go wake up Madam Marsh, Stan'..." > 'Stan came back downstairs, follow by a faintly green witch' > PoA, ch3, pg32, UK pb > > > "'We're just gonna let Madam Marsh off first, though-' there was a > retching noise from downstairs, followed by a horrible spattering > noise-'she's not feelin 'er best'" > OotP, ch 24, pg465 UK > > > Christi T. Not really-Dumbledore says alot of people are watching Harry-maybe she is one? Susan From atroposgryffin at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 06:36:03 2003 From: atroposgryffin at yahoo.com (Susan Smith) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 06:36:03 -0000 Subject: OOP: Neville Apparating? (WAS Re: Scary Thought) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66713 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: Simon wrote: Here's a scacry though. From the different books, we have found out that Apparating is not east. Percy failed before getting his license but the twins managed on their first time. And that many wizards/witches won't apparate becos its difficult/dangerous. Now can anybody see Neville doig well with apparating or will he be visiting the local wizard hospital for unspecified injuries :> Then Tom replied: Although I don't have my copy of GoF handy, I was under the impression that the Apparation test was taken after a student graduates from Hogwarts. I'm basing this on the fact that Percy can Apparate by the beginning of GoF, and there's a comment (from one of the twins, I think) to the effect of "he's been Apparating everywhere, just to because he can." This indicated to me that his Apparation was a very recent development. Then, obviously the twins are not following the expected pattern. In OoP they are apparating all over the place and they have not yet graduated. So, perhaps success with apparation comes easily to twins and not Percy. Although, it seems the twins probably have not taken and/or passed their test. -Susan From atroposgryffin at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 06:40:14 2003 From: atroposgryffin at yahoo.com (Susan Smith) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 06:40:14 -0000 Subject: Grindelwald and Badge Colors (WAS: A few questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66714 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: Joe in SoFla asked: > 2- What color are the prefect badges? and Tom replied: > I'm guessing that they are adorned in the colors for each house. In > OoP, Ch.9, p160 (US edition,) the description of Ron's badge comes > when one of the twins grabs the envelope from his brother's hand and dumps it outside down: > "Harry saw something scarlet and gold fall into George's palm." > So, since the prefects' badges are pinned to their robes, I'm > guessing that the scarlet and gold is the actual color of the badge, and not of any kind of ribbon or what-not. So, if all of the badges come in the house colors, then probably the only common denominators for the prefects' badges are their shape, size, and (unless the prefects get a wide berth for this) the location on the robes in which they are pinned. Percy Weasley's prefect badge, however, was silver (canon on this), so at some point JKR changed her description of badges. Susan From explodingstar at adelphia.net Wed Jul 2 10:18:00 2003 From: explodingstar at adelphia.net (the firey chasm from whence it came) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 06:18:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why are some poor, others rich in the WW? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20030702061304.009ff370@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 66715 At 05:04 AM 7/2/2003 +0000, you wrote: >I've been curious about this for a while. If wizards and witches can >conjure things into existence, why is anyone poor in the wizarding >world? I think the stuff that wizards and witches conjure out of thin air doesn't last, I think it disappears after a while. Kind of like leprechaun gold. ;) After all, if everything could just be conjured, then there'd be no need for house elves to cook food, right? But apparently, that food has to come from somewhere. > Why does Lupin have a tattered, patched robe? Why couldn't he >conjure himself a new robe? I have wondered why he could repair them by saying "reparo". But maybe that spell only works for things that have been broken or damaged, not stuff that's just worn out over time. You'll notice it's usually used for things that have been broken suddenly, but stuff does wear out, even in the WW. >Why does Ron have to buy a used dress robe >instead of having his parents create a new one for him? Same thing...if it was conjured, it would go away after a while..and maybe not at the most convenient time! >Why does Molly >make Christmas sweaters? Why not create them magically? She might well use magic to knit them faster, the way Hermione did in OOTP when she was making the hats for the house elves. You know, just bewitched the knitting needles to knit them really fast. But in an overall answer to your question, I'd just say that I've read this theory (possibly on HP Lexicon, but I can't remember), that conjured stuff doesn't really last. So in order to have things, you do have to really "make" them in the WW. ~dream From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Wed Jul 2 06:41:13 2003 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 06:41:13 -0000 Subject: OoP - Occlumency - A case for Evil!Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66716 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > First, full disclosure, I am very skeptical of Snape and his true > motives. I think it is entirely possible he is still a bad guy. > > Just letting you know what kinds of grains of salt you might want > here. > > But to plunge ahead, I wonder if Snape was truly teaching Harry > Occlumency the correct way. What other way was there for Snape to teach Harry Occlumency? Just like when Lupin was teaching Harry to produce a patronus, he had to experience it firsthand, and defend himself. Snape had to get into Harry's mind and Harry's job was to learn how to clear his mind of all thoughts and memories and fight Snape looking at his memories. He's supposed to practice everynight but finds it difficult with everything going on. Plus he's so tired at night he falls straight to sleep the moment his head hits the pillow. > > The choices to teach Occlumency were apparently Snape and Dumbledore. > Dumbledore, for obvious reasons -- wanting to keep Harry away for > security reasons -- couldn't be the teacher. That left Snape. > > We know that Harry felt weaker after each lesson. We know that, with > the exception of Harry turning it around on Snape, the lessons were a > failure. True, and I'll go back to the whole patronous thing. Harry felt weaker after each lesson, but as the training went on, he excelled. I think it's also about the teacher/pupil relation. Harry trusted Lupin fully so he didn't mind being pushed to do better. Snape being the teacher in a way made Harry care less about performing well and impressing anyone. > And even that peek into Snape's memories was not as rousing a success > as you might think. Snape got into his head. Harry just managed to > get him out of there. True Occlumency, as Snape describes it, is not > letting the person in in the first place. While Harry got a peek at Snape's memories, Snape couldn't get into Harry's mind. So, it was an improvement. > Snape was alone with Harry in that office. > > And Harry had no access to Dumbledore and very limited access to > Sirius and Lupin. Snape could have taught anything he wanted in that > room and Harry had no way of knowing whether it was helping or > hurting him. If I recall correctly, he never told Sirius, Lupin, > McGonagall, or even Hermione, exactly what was going on in there, > just that he was "practicing" and "working hard." >From Snape's explanation of Occlumency, and what Lupin, Sirius, and Dumbledore say about it throughout the book it does seem Snape was doing his job properly- as for following the basics. > Now, on to Snape himself. > > He has every single right to be furious with Harry for sneaking into > the Penseive. Absolutely, he does. (That is, if he didn't mean Harry > to do it in the first place, which I tend not to believe, but still > throw out as a counter-argument.) > > But teaching Harry Occlumency is a direct order from D-Dore. Lupin > and Sirius both say they will go to D-Dore and demand Snape resume > teaching it. > > Yet, Snape does not resume teaching it. Yes, it is possible he was > waiting for Harry to apologize, but this is not some tutoring session > where Snape is volunteering his time to better a student's grades. They never actually said they would tell Dumbledore themselves. And if Dumbledore had heard about it, Harry's Occlumency lessons would have been resumed, wether by Snape or someone else, it was an important task. He obeys and seems to respect Dumbledore. Lupin and Sirius tell Harry to go to Snape himself and ask to start the lessons again, but of course Harry doesn't. The first move should have been Harry's, after all he screwed up. True Snape is an adult and could have acted like one, but after what happened and given his history with Harry, do any of us honestly expect him to have done so? Wether or not Snape intentionally left the pensieve out in the open to provoke Harry, that's not really the point, we all know Harry has a knack to follow his curiosity. Remember when he looked into Dumbledore's pensieve that was in a cabinet? > This is what is best for the Order. Keep V-Mort out of Harry's head > is crucial, according to D-Dore. > > Put simply, it's war and Snape, if he is truly on the side of the > Order, doesn't have time to continue to hate the son a man who has > been dead for 15 years. It a luxury reserved for peace. That son is > the best hope, according to the prophecy, the only hope, to get rid > of V-Mort. > > But D-Dore trusts Snape. We've been told that in nearly every single > book now. Hermione ignores or mocks Ron's conspiracy theories about > Snape. > > I have to wonder if that isn't the most obvious "hide-in-plain- sight" > foreshadowing you've ever seen. I've stopped arguing Snape's true motives and his hatred for James and the others. We've only been given two reasons to the feud, there could have been something much bigger. Also, we don't yet know why Dumbledore trusts him. Yes he has a love of the dark arts and USED TO BE a death eater, but we haven't seen him do anything recently to truly say he's still on the dark side, it's all speculation really. -Maritza From atroposgryffin at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 06:52:28 2003 From: atroposgryffin at yahoo.com (Susan Smith) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 06:52:28 -0000 Subject: OoP - Occlumency - A case for Evil!Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66717 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > First, full disclosure, I am very skeptical of Snape and his true > motives. I think it is entirely possible he is still a bad guy. > > Just letting you know what kinds of grains of salt you might want > here. > > But to plunge ahead, I wonder if Snape was truly teaching Harry > Occlumency the correct way... Keep in mind that there was one really stellar moment which took Snape by total surprise when Harry "blocked" him, Snape said something like "I don't remember telling you to use a shield charm, but it proved quite effective"...so I think albeit subconciously, on his own or as an aside to his increasin skills and prowess in DADA, Harry was learning Occlumency. I also wonder if he did not intentionally "unintentionally" hold back as the story implied-hoping to learn more of Mom, Dad, other Oreder members, etc. "Susan" From prisoneroflittlewhinging at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 06:56:21 2003 From: prisoneroflittlewhinging at yahoo.com (prisoneroflittlewhinging) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 06:56:21 -0000 Subject: OOP: Harry and Ginny? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66718 I'm new, so bear with me. The only thing I'm not understanding is how some of you are getting the idea that Harry will end up with Ginny. I've never seen any evidence that he thinks of her as anything more than just his friend's little sister or, at the most, a friend. If I'm missing something, please tell me - I am open to being enlightened as there may have been times upon my all-night reading of OoP that my brain didn't catch everything I was reading. I'm now listening to the tapes (Jim Dale's reading is absolutely fantastic as always) and I am up to tape 10 of 17, but still no indication that Harry and Ginny may give it a go. What are the signs? Personally, I think Harry should end up with...well...ME! Oops! Did I say that out loud? Sorry. Suzy From L.Kelly at uq.net.au Wed Jul 2 07:01:06 2003 From: L.Kelly at uq.net.au (Kelly) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 17:01:06 +1000 Subject: OOP: It is Snape's fault!!!! References: Message-ID: <3F028332.1060407@uq.net.au> No: HPFGUIDX 66719 Pickle Jimmy wrote: > I read through the rest of this thread, and unless I missed it, foung > one point lacking. > > What evidence do we have that Snape knew that Harry knew what a > pensieve was or how it worked? > > If we are to assume (and I am not saying he didn't) that Snape either > provoked Harry to look at his memory by showing Harry that he'd > removed it and also where he'd put it; or that Snape was "stupid" to > try and hide his memory by doing it in front of Harry; we have to > also say Snape knew Harry knew what a pensieve was. > > If you walked into a room (having no pre-pensieve knowledge) and saw > Snape put his wand to his temple and pull out silvery stuff and stick > it in a bowl, you'd probably think that it had something to do with > the fact that he had very greasy hair. > > If Snape was not aware of Harry's pre-pensieve knowledge/experience, > why would he worry that Harry had seen him use it? Or think that > Harry would know how to retrieve his memories from it? >>>>> Tanya: I think it is a fair enough point that Snape may not have thought that Harry had any idea what a pensieve is, or how it works. However I would like to point out that the first time he encountered a pensieve Harry had absolutely no idea what it was or how it worked - yet he had no trouble in using it, so it doesn't seem to be an especially difficult object to use. However, if we presume that Snape had no knowledge about Harry's previous pensieve experience - wouldn't that make even less sense for him to leave it out? (My logic here is admittedly based largely on conjecture... but here goes): If Snape presumes Harry has no idea what he is doing, then he would also presume that what he is doing looks extremely bizarre and mysterious to Harry. Given Harry's previous track record trying to figure out and tackle things by himself, especially in PS/SS and CoS, (and I don't see how Snape - as one of Dumbledore's most trusted and competent staff - could fail to know at least something of these events), added to Snapes already low opinion of Harry, doesn't it make sense that Snape would already think of Harry as, well, extremely nosy? One could argue that perhaps he simply wasn't expecting an interruption, but considering the fact he already had a cover story ready, along with his general character - Snape strikes me as generally being cautious, as someone who would think out possible risks/scenarios ahead of time - it seems unlikely that he would not have considered the possibility of an interruption. On the other hand, if he knows about Harry's previous experience with a pensieve wouldn't he assume that Harry would at the least be polite enough not to look into the pensieve? After all that sort of thing strikes me as what would probably be considered quite a breach of wizarding-ethic, perhaps Snape simply never suspected that even Harry Potter would ever do such a thing? Given his reaction afterwards I find it very, very difficult to believe Snape left the Pensieve out deliberately to lure Harry. (Though there is probably room to argue he did so subconsciously...) Tanya. From atroposgryffin at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 07:04:13 2003 From: atroposgryffin at yahoo.com (Susan Smith) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 07:04:13 -0000 Subject: Why are some poor, others rich in the WW? / Lupin's robes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66720 > Lea: > I can't remember if JK said this or if it was in a book, but I'm sure I read that conjured items disappear after a while. For instance, > Bill (maybe Charlie) conjured tablecloths out of thin air in GoF... > but it doesn't really matter if tablecloths vanish, now does it? > > I also have read the (very appropriate) explanation that since the WW is commercial like the MW, the conjuring of everything would wreck > the market. > > It really doesn't make much sense to me, though, why Lupin couldn't > make his robes look new, etc. >>>>> Clearly, even if he could he was above/beyond such materialistic things-JKR's characterization of him keys on his simple, unpretentious, steadfast, loyal life. Susan From magickHpotter at aol.com Wed Jul 2 07:14:25 2003 From: magickHpotter at aol.com (magickHpotter at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 03:14:25 EDT Subject: OoP Molly's Maiden Name Message-ID: <70.2fd91f8e.2c33e051@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66721 Michal wrote: > mongo wrote something about agreeing with another > theory that Molly's maiden name could be Lestrange. > But what if it's Malfoy? Maybe she's Lucius's sister! > Is that too far-fetched? not at all =) I know JK is going to give us a great twist like that. Is this why Draco HATES the Weasley's so much? I mean the Malfoy clan does go out of their way to terrorize the Weasley's--makes sense to me. BTW this is my first reply so If I did anything wrong hve mercy=)=0=) ~Mishelle~ Order of Merlin First class winner of Witch weekly's Best Simle Award ( 5 times) Leader of the HPF email LOOP/ The Magick of Harry Potter Best Seeker in a century We(Fred& George) think he(Wood_ is trying to drowned himself in the shower--POA "I think we better check with Puddlmere United weather Oliver Wood has been killed during a pratice session because, she seems to be channeling his Spirit"--Order of the Phoenix From lists at dnbaccounting.co.uk Wed Jul 2 07:24:30 2003 From: lists at dnbaccounting.co.uk (bethcurrie2003) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 07:24:30 -0000 Subject: Tear-Jerking Moments in the Series -- Some OoP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66722 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David Paterson" wrote: > My joyous tear-jerking moment comes from PS/SS: > > Harry is recovering from recovering the Stone, under the watchful eye of Madame Pomfrey. Hagrid enters, apologises for his failings, and says "...anyway, got yeh this." > > It seemed to be a handsome, leather-covered book. Harry opened it curiously. It was full of Wizard photogrpahs. Smiling and waving at him from every page were his mother and father. > > ... > > Harry couldn't speak, but Hagrid understood. > ABSOLUTELY - this also got to me. One of my best ever tear-jerking moments. All the thought and effort Hagrid had put in, tracking down old school friends, etc - shows how much he cares about Harry. I was gutted that they ruined this moment in the movie - they left out most of Hagrid's speech at this point. Beth :-) From atroposgryffin at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 07:34:59 2003 From: atroposgryffin at yahoo.com (Susan Smith) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 07:34:59 -0000 Subject: OOP :The Guilt Not Mentioned In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66723 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "xnavyguy73" wrote: > I had a thought as I finished OOP. Harry had the mirror that he could have used to contact Sirus, although he didn't know it till he opend the package. When he couldn't talk to sirus throught the fire in > Umbridge's office he could have used the mirror, to make sure that > Sirus wasn't in the Order's HQ. After the events that lead to Sirus' death, Harry found the mirror and realized what it could do. He must have been hit with guilt about rushing into the MOM-Dept. of > Mysteries, and therefore making Sirus and the others come to his > rescue. Even if it's not expressly or plainly spelled out in the > text, I could only imagine how I would have felt about this situation. > > BBSB----"Bring Back Sirus Black" Hasn't Harry suffered enough loss I agree. But, this was so critical to Harry's growth and character development. He has to learn to "look before he leaps", control that impulsivity and channel his response to emotions-after all Dumbledore implies that it is Harry's ability to emote (Is that a word?) which will ultimately protect him from V. and assist him with conquering V. Atropos G. From explodingstar at adelphia.net Wed Jul 2 10:44:28 2003 From: explodingstar at adelphia.net (the firey chasm from whence it came) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 06:44:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP: Has Anyone Seen Redeemable Draco??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20030702063337.00a33ec0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 66724 At 12:16 AM 7/2/2003 +0000, you wrote: >S > >P > >O > >I > >L > >E > >R > >S > >P > >A > >C > >E > >I just thought I'd throw out the question for all you Draco fans out >there. Is there more evidence in OoP for "Redeemable Draco"? Actually, in a recent interview JKR mentioned that "I think you're all getting too fond of Draco". Which is very interesting...does this mean something bad's going to happen to Draco, or does this mean that he's going to DO something really bad? I swear...her interviews always leave me with more questions than answers. >Personally, I've never liked Draco. The only way that I thought he >could turn into one of the good guys would be if he, for some reason, >examined the kind of stuff he's learned all his life as a good Malfoy >and decide that maybe what Daddy Lucius was teaching him was wrong. I've never liked Draco either, and I've never found him all that interesting a character. I have a theory as to why so many people like him, but frankly it isn't a pleasant one. Let's face it, we've all known a Draco in our lives. Probably more than one. He has a common personality, the typical snobbish bully. How many people reading HP right now were like Draco as a child? I think it's safe to assume that probably at least a reasonable number of them were, seeing as how this isn't a rare personality type. Well, they're bound to see a character that reflects their past selves in a more positive light than a person who was never like Draco would. We tend to relate to characters and like best characters that we have something in common with, or can see ourselves in. Like I can really relate to Hermione for example because I was a "smart" kid and I have more than a passing interest in social justice. I totally can't relate to Draco because I wasn't ever a bully, I was always the kid who got picked on. But someone who had been like Draco in their youth is probably more likely to like and relate to him now, and also see his flaws in a more redeeming light, perhaps focusing on his relationship to his father and excusing him on the basis of that. They also might be using the same logic that Sirius used to excuse James when he said, "of course he was an idiot, we were all idiots, we were only 15!". A lot of people are probably taking the point of view of "oh, he's young, he'll grow out of it", in regards to Draco. I for one have never been a fan of Redeemable!Draco, but it's a popular theme in fan fiction. He also tends to be a much better developed character in fanon than canon. Personally I find him to be a cartoony, hardly developed and increasingly ineffectual adversary in canon. > Anyway, while I >know I've only covered some of Draco's scenes, he strikes me as one >of the characters that has had little, if any, character >development. If anything, he strikes me as becoming even more of a >stock character. I'd agree with this. If anything, his importance seems to be waning and his focus seems to be on fairly childish things (House points, Quidditch, getting HRH in trouble, etc), while Harry seems focused on much bigger issues (Sirius, V., etc). I think his importance has actually been overestimated by a lot of people, he strikes me more as something who was a big obstacle in Harry's early years, but is now becoming more and more of a joke. If you think about it, that makes sense, I mean, after taking on Lord V., how the hell is Draco supposed to be remotely threatening anymore? ~dream From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Wed Jul 2 07:58:33 2003 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 07:58:33 -0000 Subject: OotP Moody's magical eye and the boggart.. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66725 This just occured to me- If I remeber correctly Lupin said in PoA no one really knows what a boggart's true form is because anytime they're in the presence of people, they take the shape of the person's worst fear. Well, when Molly asked Moody to have a look in the writing desk with his magical eye and tell them what was in it, the boggart was in another room, one floor above them. It wasn't actually exposed to Moody to change form, so does that mean Moody knows what it actualy looks like? I mean, it has to be right in front of the person, right? Lupin didn't make it say all the wizard has to do is see it, he made it seem the boggart had to be next to the person to feel their fear. This has been nagging me ever since I made the "connection", if you can call it that. Had to let it out. "-Maritza" From explodingstar at adelphia.net Wed Jul 2 10:50:00 2003 From: explodingstar at adelphia.net (the firey chasm from whence it came) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 06:50:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is anyone else not holding their breath? lol In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20030702064754.00a42e30@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 66726 At 03:02 AM 7/2/2003 +0000, you wrote: >Am I the only one who is not expecting Book 6 to be released within >the next year? I'm really not expecting Book 6 anytime soon. She's just had a baby, and she says she did start it already, but she refuses to work under a deadline anymore because it stresses her out too much. And from what I've read in interviews, she's a perfectionist. I really hope we don't have to wait as long as we did for OOTP, but I wouldn't be surprised if it took about 2 years till we get the next one. It's such a pain liking something that's so current. So much more convenient when all your favorite authors are dead and you don't have to wait for their next book to come out anymore. :P ~dream From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Wed Jul 2 08:43:40 2003 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 08:43:40 -0000 Subject: OOP: Harry's emotional life In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66727 A.J. wrote: > I was most struck by the case of Cho. Book 4's > description said that Harry 'wants to dream about his crush... and > perhaps do more than dream.' In that book, he is mentioned thinking about her several times, imagining showing off, noticing her, etc. despite all that's on his mind during the books. > > Most of the time I saw no mention of his thinking or dreaming about Cho and only those interactions of speaking or doing when he did meet with her. > Are we to assume that Harry is madly dreaming of Cho all the time he's not being mindmessedwith by Voldemort, speaking at length to Hermione and Ron, studying for O.W.L.s, in detention, or... Despite how busy he is, when one is very busy and fancies someone one still manages to think of the someone often. Did they not speak at all except on the > dates? (Other students seem to converse during meals and offtime.) No wonder they feel stilted! No wonder Cho is jealous of the soul time Hermione gets, like Ron, if the trio is together and discussing things so much more than a couple. > > I am sorry about Sirius's wasted life, I love Lupin, and I was glad for Harry after all the fuss in Book 4 that he was given a chance > with Cho, but I was left with the feeling that he wasn't giving them enough of his emotional contribution/heart/thoughts/whatever. (Yes, I know he is preoccupied and feeling self absorbed, but... it seems given that these characters are important to him, yet there were not as many words fleshing out this concept to back it up.) > > Or is it all offstage? Ummm... Personally I'd be annoyed if Harry spent too much time thinking about Cho, I never liked the idea of them together to begin with... When Harry was thinking about Cho so much, she was out of his reach. In this book he finally gets her, so there's no need for JKR to write about him constantly dreaming of her. Anyway, who sits around spending their every waking moment thinking about their loved ones and crush? I know I don't. So why would JKR write all that extra stuff, making this book much long than need be? It's all implied. Every scene, every thought and every emotion that was written in this book served a purpose; anything more would just be unnecessary fluff. "-Maritza" From DieZauberfrau at t-online.de Wed Jul 2 09:32:15 2003 From: DieZauberfrau at t-online.de (DieZauberfrau at t-online.de) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 11:32:15 +0200 Subject: OOP: Snape and Lily Message-ID: <003801c3407c$d9b0a260$d3df01d9@namevcj3s3uedh> No: HPFGUIDX 66728 Hello, I'm Astrid from Germany and I just like to know you my oppinon. From 1 book on, I thought Snape isn't that bad and I can not believe he dislikes Harry that much because of James. Yes he looks like his father, but if James acted like in Snapes memory, Harry does not act like his father. I think also there is another reason Snape's hating James. You remember Lily saying she does not like James and Snape's words about Lily? When I was in that age I would not have said, I like this guy in front of so many people, would have said it the other way. Remember Snape was stitting near the girls. Why? I think Snape was in love with Lily. You can beat me for that but I think so. I can't remember that they said Lily was in a special house, maybe I'm wrong, but maybe she was in Slytherin. In my oppinion Harry and Snape's relationship is getting better, but both of them did not realise it. Maybe in the last book the nearly like each other but then I think Snape will die. "Astrid" From explodingstar at adelphia.net Wed Jul 2 11:02:08 2003 From: explodingstar at adelphia.net (the firey chasm from whence it came) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 07:02:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Harry's emotional life In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20030702065439.00a34ec0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 66729 At 08:11 AM 7/2/2003 +0000, you wrote: >ya >da >da >dum >de >blah >blah >etc >etc >ya >da >ya > > > >Here, while we know there is a lot going on to describe in this >novel, I am surprised at how little Harry's thoughts are mentioned of >these other characters-- it's mainly Ron and Hermione that he speaks >to. Well, they are his best friends after all. Also, Cho still makes him very nervous at the beginning of the book. I thought his scenes with her were pretty realistic. He seems to be terrified of girls though, are all teenage boys like that? > He also >must miss Sirius, and be glad to see Lupin again, but I didn't see >much description of their emotional interaction while Harry was at 12 >Grimmauld or his thoughts about them while he was at school (though >of course he thought of Sirius more often than Lupin). Are we >supposed to assume that Harry is bonding with S. and L. in those >holiday and preschool weeks at Grimmauld and it's just offstage >because we are busy learning about other stuff? Well, one thing to keep in mind was how angry and resentful Harry was in this book, especially towards adults who he feels aren't telling him enough. It might have been preventing him from bonding with S. and L. the way we might have expected him to. Also, he's very much a teenager now. How many teenagers do you know spend a lot of time bonding with adults? Some do, surely but most are in their rebellious "never trust anyone under 20" phase. I don't think Harry was quite like that, but I think he still primarily sees Lupin as an authority figure (He addresses him as Professor Lupin still, even though he no longer teaches) and Sirius I think he does have a strong bond with, but Sirius has his own problems. There were a lot of times in the books when Sirius was being sullen and resentful because he was housebound, and that probably made him difficult to bond with as well. > Are we to assume >that Harry is madly dreaming of Cho all the time he's not being >mindmessedwith by Voldemort, speaking at length to Hermione and Ron, >studying for O.W.L.s, in detention, or... Despite how busy he is, >when one is very busy and fancies someone one still manages to think >of the someone often. I thought he was thinking about her a lot, considering all the other stuff he's had on his mind. You've got remember after all, he does have more on his plate than the average teenager...by a very long shot. Most teens don't have to worry about being on a Dark Lord's "Most Wanted List". That sort of thing can definitely cut into the time you have to spend thinking about your crushes. ;) > Did they not speak at all except on the >dates? I always assumed that the only times they spoke was when it was specifically referred to in canon. It doesn't seem like Gryffindor has any classes with Ravenclaw and plus Cho's in a year ahead of Harry anyway. So they wouldn't have had many other opportunities to talk. ~dream From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 10:37:57 2003 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 10:37:57 -0000 Subject: OOP: Is Umbridge a Squib? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66730 This sounds outrageous at first, but think about the evidence: 1. Squibs like Arabella Figg and Argus Filch have a very strong interest in cats. JKR makes frequent reference to the plates with pictures of kittens decorating Umbridge's office. 2. When Umbridge teaches Defense of the Dark Arts, she makes sure that no spells are actually performed. This makes sense if she herself is unable to perform spells. 3. Although Umbridge has lots of authority, she has very little magical power. For example: a. She was unable to keep nifflers out of her own office. b. She asked others to do things like put a Stealth Sensoring Spell around her doorway and to release Montague from a toilet. c. When Harry and Hermione led her into the forest, she tore her robe on a bramble and tripped over a sapling, but did not use the Lumos charm even when "they were so deep into the forest that the dense tree canopy blocked out all light." d. When she left Hogwarts, she did so on foot. This could have been more stealthy than leaving by broomstick, but she continued to walk even after Peeves attacked her. It appears that Umbridge was able to use a stunning charm to set off Fred and George's fireworks. However, when Umbridge wanted to capture Hagrid, JKR makes a point of telling us that Umbridge took five people with her. One of these stunned Fang, and Hagrid threw him to the ground so forcefully he didn't get up again. When McGonagall came out to defend Hagrid, JKR mentions two times that McGonagall was shot with four stunners straight in the chest. If the group was united in its purpose, we would have expected five stunners. Was this a clue that Umbridge's stunning charm was basically ineffectual? When Umbridge wanted to get information from Harry about why he had been in her office, it became evident that Umbridge didn't understand the proper dosage of Veritaserum nor how long it takes to make Veritaserum. Had she forgotten that lesson from her Potions class? When she realized that there was no more Veritaserum available, she made a big production of threatening to use the Cruciatus curse on Harry but never actually used it. Is it possible that this was only a very convincing bluff? Finally, we can be certain that Umbridge did do one spell properly. When she was in the forest and surrounded by centaurs, Umbridge successfully performed the Incarcerous spell against the centaur Magorian. I would suggest that this is the instance JKR was referring to when she said, "There is a character who does manage in desperate circumstances to do magic quite late in life, but that is very rare in the world I am writing about." So...what do you think? "mt3t3l1" From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 2 11:01:46 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 11:01:46 -0000 Subject: OoP: HELP ME ON BODE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66731 Susan: > Who are Sturgis Podmore and Broderick Bode (I may have the names > slightly wrong)? Are they both MoM workers who are also Death > Eaters? Or just MoM workers who tried to get prophecy, and could not? Sturgis Podmore is a member of the Order. One of those many million who come to pick Harry up and don't have any lines. he gets arrested for "trying to get through a door" - presumably having been Imperious'd. Kirstini From explodingstar at adelphia.net Wed Jul 2 11:09:10 2003 From: explodingstar at adelphia.net (the firey chasm from whence it came) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 07:09:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 3173 In-Reply-To: <20030702092653.59863.qmail@web10005.mail.yahoo.com> References: <1057136584.3530.54153.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20030702070240.00a4bb70@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 66732 >2 How come Dumbledor does not do something to stop the >horrible, >most evil, truly terrifying Bellatrix? He was probably too preoccupied with the even more evil Voldemort. A great wizard has to keep his priorities straight, you know. ;) >And >how come all the Aurors could not defeat and >completely subdue the >Deatheaters? Because then the series could have ended with the 5th book! >3 The Death Eaters on the whole are a bit confusing. >First of all, >not all of them even think of using Avada Kedavra... Maybe JKR just wanted to use other spells. For the sake of variety. Who knows? Just because you're a DE doesn't necessarily mean you're intelligent. Sure, using AK might have been smarter, but keep in mind that these are all purebloods and therefore, inbred. And you know what they say about folks who marry their cousins...;) >Dolohov, >supposedly really evil, jinxes Neville into tap-dance? >It's almost a >joke! Yeah, that is kind of funny, come to think of it. I don't know. This is a battle scene though and I suspect that people aren't always at their most logical when they're in a battle situation. Possibly he just said the first spell that came to his mind. > > >Do all DE's have the ability to AK? I would think so, but we don't know that for sure. It is a "dark art", and you'd think they'd have learned all the basic Dark Arts from V. On the other hand, it's possible that they can't use AK without V.'s authorization. Perhaps they can only kill on his orders. We don't really know that much about the command structure of the DEs, or what their overall strategy tends to be. ~dream From explodingstar at adelphia.net Wed Jul 2 11:48:13 2003 From: explodingstar at adelphia.net (the firey chasm from whence it came) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 07:48:13 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Is Umbridge a Squib? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20030702071036.00a54e30@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 66733 Okay, I happen to think that this theory is quite preposterous (no offense). But I'll go through your points and tell you why I don't agree: >1. Squibs like Arabella Figg and Argus Filch have a very strong >interest in cats. JKR makes frequent reference to the plates with >pictures of kittens decorating Umbridge's office. Figg and Filch do seem to have special relationships with cats, don't they? And this hasn't been yet explained. However, the kittens in Umbridges office I think tie into something else. Umbridge is described as having a girlish, overly sweet voice. She wears a disgusting pink cardigan. She's described in her worst moments as "dangerously sweet" (or something to that effect). I think in this case the garish kittens are another example of her cloying, "poisonous honey" personality. She's cutesiness shot through with utter venom. I don't think this has anything to do with Squib/cat connection. I think this is illustrative of something else entirely. >2. When Umbridge teaches Defense of the Dark Arts, she makes sure >that no spells are actually performed. This makes sense if she >herself is unable to perform spells. It also makes sense if she is a MoM stooge placed there to prevent Hogwarts students from learning to fight, possibly on the side of DD in case he was trying to forcibly overthrow Fudge. Which, by the way, was Fudge's worst fear. Also in her speech she says something like "it's so good to be back (at Hogwarts)", which implies she was at Hogwarts before. I think it's safe to assume she was at Hogwarts before as a student, as I can't really picture her there as a cleaning lady. :P Also, it was mentioned that to work in the MoM (I think in PoA), you needed top grades on your O.W.L.s and N.E.W.T.s. There's no way she could have taken those tests and passed them with the grades required for the MoM if she were a Squib. >3. Although Umbridge has lots of authority, she has very little >magical power. There's a difference between "not having much magical power" and being a Squib. Being a Squib means you have NO magical power (except possibly in a life-threatening situation as JKR has hinted). She threatens to use the Cruciatus Curse on Harry, and there's no way she could perform that if she were a Squib. Also, in her very first class she's able to make letters appear on the blackboard by tapping it with her wand. This is definitely magic that she's performing while not in a life-threatening situation. >It appears that Umbridge was able to use a stunning charm to set off >Fred and George's fireworks. She was using magic in a non life threatening situation, therefore she can't be a Squib. >However, when Umbridge wanted to capture >Hagrid, JKR makes a point of telling us that Umbridge took five >people with her. One of these stunned Fang, and Hagrid threw him to >the ground so forcefully he didn't get up again. When McGonagall came >out to defend Hagrid, JKR mentions two times that McGonagall was shot >with four stunners straight in the chest. If the group was united in >its purpose, we would have expected five stunners. Was this a clue >that Umbridge's stunning charm was basically ineffectual? I do think she's the type of person who likes to give orders and have them carried out by others, rather than do things herself. Also, her not being able to do a good Stunning doesn't mean she's a Squib, it could just mean she has bad aim! >When Umbridge wanted to get information from Harry about why he had >been in her office, it became evident that Umbridge didn't understand >the proper dosage of Veritaserum nor how long it takes to make >Veritaserum. This is evidence that she doesn't necessarily know much about that particular potion, not that she's a Squib. Potions aren't her area of expertise, making up stupid decrees and spying on students is. > Had she forgotten that lesson from her Potions class? It's possible. You're assuming she went to a Potions class though, but to do that she would have had to attend Hogwarts. And having magical ability is a prerequisite for attending Hogwarts, so if she attended Hogwarts, she can't be a Squib. It doesn't mean she's a great witch, it just means she's not a Squib. >When she realized that there was no more Veritaserum available, she >made a big production of threatening to use the Cruciatus curse on >Harry but never actually used it. Is it possible that this was only a >very convincing bluff? She never actually used it because Hermione bluffed her instead into going into the Forbidden Forest to look for DD's "weapon". I don't think it's consistent with her characterization to make empty threats, so if she was threatening Harry with the Cruciatus Curse, I'm pretty sure she can do it. >Finally, we can be certain that Umbridge did do one spell properly. >When she was in the forest and surrounded by centaurs, Umbridge >successfully performed the Incarcerous spell against the centaur >Magorian. I would suggest that this is the instance JKR was referring >to when she said, "There is a character who does manage in desperate >circumstances to do magic quite late in life, but that is very rare >in the world I am writing about." This isn't the only spell she manages to do though. We see her stun the twins' fireworks, and attempt to stun Hagrid (but miss). If she were a Squib she wouldn't have been able to Stun anything at all, not even miss! I'd also like to reiterate that I don't think there's any way a Squib could get a job working at the MoM, simply because they require test scores proving you can do magic (OWLs and NEWTs). So I definitely don't think she could possibly be a Squib. Besides, what would her being a Squib explain that isn't already explained by her being a witch doing the MoM's bidding? ~dream From mirzamblack at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 11:52:16 2003 From: mirzamblack at yahoo.com (Mirzam Black) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 11:52:16 -0000 Subject: OoP Molly's Maiden Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66734 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Smith" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Angela Boyko > wrote: > > > mongo62aa wrote: > > > > > > > But what if it's Malfoy? Maybe she's Lucius's sister! > > > Is that too far-fetched? I mean, it would help explain > > > some of the nastiness between Arthur and Lucius. > > > > > > Lucius thinks "argh, that damn Weasley, taking my > > > sister and turning her into a muggle-loving freak!" > > > > > > Anyone with me here? > > > > Um, sorry, nope. Lucius would surely have brought it up during one > of the > > many Arthur-taunting scenes in the books. And Draco would have > known who Ron > > was when they met on the Hogwarts Express. > > > > Angela > > Molly could be in the Malfoy line somewhere and Lucius knows it but > does not know her well (distant cousin or several times removed) > > As far as Draco knowing Ron, I have first cousins I have never met, > Sirius Black did not know his cousin Bellatrix well so it does not > seem unlikely that if Molly was a second or third cousin on the > Malfoy die, and a poor relation that Draco would not have known > Weasley except by reputation (ie: hand me down robes, red hair- > Wesley). Just a thought. > > Atropos G. It was mentioned, that Weasleys are related to Sirius, and Sirius is Narcissas cousin. Arthur Weasley is Narcissas second cousin, and Molly is cousin to Sirius via marriage. Although of course Molly can be related to Lucius, who only is Narcissas husband. But Draco and Ron are already related pretty clear. Mirzam From MKELLER at SUNLINK.NET Wed Jul 2 12:11:59 2003 From: MKELLER at SUNLINK.NET (jksunflower2002) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 12:11:59 -0000 Subject: Is anyone else not holding their breath? lol In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20030702064754.00a42e30@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66735 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, the firey chasm from whence it came wrote: > At 03:02 AM 7/2/2003 +0000, you wrote: > >Am I the only one who is not expecting Book 6 to be released within > >the next year? > > > I'm really not expecting Book 6 anytime soon. She's just had a baby, and > she says she did start it already, but she refuses to work under a deadline > anymore because it stresses her out too much. And from what I've read in > interviews, she's a perfectionist. I really hope we don't have to wait as > long as we did for OOTP, but I wouldn't be surprised if it took about 2 > years till we get the next one. > I too expect to see book six within the next two years. From some of the recent interviews JKR's given, I believe she did not start writing OotP immediately after finishing GoF. She took some time off to write some other things (the Beasts and Quidditch books and non HP stuff.) However, she has mentioned that she's already started writing book six, and that it probably won't be as long as book 5. We shall see. Toodles, Toad (who hopes book 7 is a two volume set) From ugadawg02 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 12:14:05 2003 From: ugadawg02 at yahoo.com (ugadawg02) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 12:14:05 -0000 Subject: OOP Why are some poor... (and some burning questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66736 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: Reductor curse will blast through solid object; that should do it. A Stunning curse at close range would probably have a lethal impact if the wizard has sufficient emotion behind it. Many of these curse, like the Stunning Curse are modulated by the wizard's emotions and intent. bboy_mn Is this then the curse that was used on Hermonie? Fogive me if this was asked, but I remember it being almost coma inducing. I cannot check my copy at the minute my girlfriend is still reading it. Was it that curse, I remember something about a red flash hitting her in the chest then her collasping and the breathing being shallow, please forgive me if that was not right description. Yes everything must be created from nothing, but what about things like the chairs Dumbledore has created in the past, some of them seem to have lasted a full meal, is there any length of time that these are created from nothing objects can last or does it depend on the power of the one casting it? -RJ From ajlboston at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 12:15:36 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 12:15:36 -0000 Subject: OOP: Harry's emotional life In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66737 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "l3al3y_Doll_3" wrote: > Anyway, who sits around spending their every waking moment thinking > about their loved ones and crush? I know I don't. Hey not every waking moment, but I certainly do often! >:) A.J. From MKELLER at SUNLINK.NET Wed Jul 2 12:23:44 2003 From: MKELLER at SUNLINK.NET (jksunflower2002) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 12:23:44 -0000 Subject: OoP: Inheritance, Snape's hair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66738 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jennifer Boggess Ramon wrote: > *sacrificial spoiler-free line* > If Harry were to inherit the > property, though, we would then have him faced with the moral dilemma > of owning a house-elf. Hermione might well not speak to him for days. > If Harry inherits, wouldn't that mean that he's been acknowledged as Sirius's leagal child? Could one of his pureblood relatives then seek legal custody? Oh dear! > >> Also, in reference to the greasy hair - those of you blessed with > good hair will perhaps never understand this, but it is possible to > have hair so naturally oily that even if it is carefully washed in > the morning, it's still greasy-looking by evening. Humidity (such as > a damp dungeon) and wet heat (such as a room full of simmering > potions cauldrons) will exacerbate the problem. Assuming that Snape > is not vain enough to spend every spare minute combing Artemis's > Anti-Oil Elixir through his hair, greasy locks may be the best he can > manage. > > > - Boggles, aka J. C. B. Ramon Hmmm.....maybe he oils his hair down because it stands up too much, like maybe James and Harry's does? Possible relation? Of course his hair was greasy as a child, too. Maybe it was something of a family thing--didn't want to be associated with the Potters. Toad (Whose husband is still reading the book and can't unload her strange thoughts on him so has decided to pester you poor folks instead.) Toodles From jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com Wed Jul 2 12:32:20 2003 From: jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com (jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 05:32:20 -0700 Subject: OoP: Inheritance, Snape's hair Message-ID: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30B04D@msgmsp16.norwest.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66739 If Harry inherits, wouldn't that mean that he's been acknowledged as Sirius's leagal child? Could one of his pureblood relatives then seek legal custody? Oh dear! (Jennifer (me): only if he is considered an heir for intestacy purposes is this a concern- i.e. he would have had to have been legally adopted to take through intestacy. If he is DEVISED the property through a Will- he need not have been a child- or even a relative of Sirius. There is of course the slight problem that he's a minor- and minor's generally can't own property in their own name (i.e. have to have a legal guardian of the estate or trust set up)- this is the USA's laws I'm rambling about, however- possibly the UK is different. From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Wed Jul 2 12:58:53 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 12:58:53 -0000 Subject: Tear-Jerking Moments in the Series -- Some OoP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66740 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > Since the Babes and Skanks List came off so well (and RachelBeth is > currently working on a Hunks and Gits list using the same format, > assisted by the modest humor talents of yours truly and then > RachelBeth and I have a surprise planned after that) I thought I'd > keep the lists going. > > I was thinking about all five books and which moments brought a lump > to the throat and a tear to the eye of a big macho man like me and > started wondering if others felt the same. > Darrin, A list for me. You made a list just for me. I was starting to think I was the only one hopelessly caught up in this story and having a hard time pulling myself back to reality. My tear-jerking moment came when Luna and Harry had their talk. I hadn't cried about Sirius. It was too abrupt and too hard to believe but when Luna said they were all behind the veil, that you could hear them whispering, it reminded me of the weeks after my father's death. How thin I felt the veil between this world and the next was. How I felt he was with me and while it was excruciating, I would do anything to feel that feeling again. Harry must have been trying to cope with how to let Sirius go and Luna was able to help him by letting him know it would be okay, that no matter what they are over their waiting for us. Oh well, the tears flow again. Jennifer From melindaleo at msn.com Wed Jul 2 14:06:07 2003 From: melindaleo at msn.com (Melinda Leydon) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 09:06:07 -0500 Subject: OOP Tear Jerking Moments in the Series Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66741 > > * SS/PS: Neville gets the points to put Gryffindor over the top. I > confess to a touch of movie poisoning here, as the young man playing > Neville played the shock very well, but even the first time I read > SS, this got to me. I'm a sucker for a kid who hasn't done anything > right being the hero at the end. Gets me every time. > > * CoS: You Solved It! You Solved It! The film ruined this moment, but > just the image of Hermione racing to the boys, giving them the > highest praise that she, as a 12-year-old girl, knows how to give at > the time, touches me. > > * PoA: Harry finally accepts Sirius as an innocent man. The "you fly > as well as your father ever did" gets me every time too. I've been > dreaming about how Gary Oldman is going to deliver that line. > > * GoF: Harry nearly breaks down completely on Molly's shoulder. I've > been dogging Molly really bad lately, but it's mainly because I > remember the woman who just seemed so perfect in this scene. > > Darrin > -- Gawrsh. Anyone got any tissue? ME: Now, mind you I cry at Hallmark commercials (pathetic, I know) and have more tear jerking moments in these book than I can remember, mostly POA (and the movie better not ruin that book!) So, here were a few: SS: Harry sitting with Hagrid eating a burger, trying to put the words together on why everyone thinks he's special and worrying about whether he's up to Hogwarts. Harry's deepest desire in the Mirror of Erised being his family and having his mother staring at him, smiling but crying. Hagrid's gift of the photo album with all the pictures of Harry's parents because he knew Harry didn't have any. This was such a thoughtful thing to do POA: "He killed my Mum and Dad" as little 13 year old Harry forgets he's a wizard and runs at full grown Sirius across the room, using his fists, not magic. When Harry is standing in Lupin's office talking about the dementors at the Quidditch game and he says, "When they get near me, I can hear Voldemort murdering my mum" Harry trapped under the table in the pub listening to how Sirius betrayed his parents, and later when they get back to the dorm and he sits in his bed looking at the same photo album Hagrid gave him. When Dumbledore is talking to Harry about his stag Patronus and how the dead we have loved never truly leave us. Harry's father showed himself most clearly when Harry had great need of him. GOF: It's been mentioned before, but that scene in the hospital when Harry nearly breaks down on Mrs. Weasley's shoulder gets me every time. The entire graveyard scene, I still find it so distrubing. OOP: At Christmas when it's learned Mr. Weasly will be okay and everyone goes upstairs for a sleep. Harry sits up keeping himself deliberately uncomfortable because he's afraid to go back to sleep. The Easter egg scene with Ginny really touched me in this one. Sirius. I did cry for Sirius because it seemed so unfair, what a wasted life. I can picture in my head a grieving Lupin trying to control a panicking Harry and Harry screaming for Sirius "as if his life depended on it" Back in DD office when Harry is throwing things and yelling He's had enough, he's seen enough" Harry grieving alone in the bushes by the lake. This more than anything else really bothers me. This book left me kind of cold and down. Stunned as if someone really has died and I'm having trouble taking it all in. The 1-2 year wait for book 6 is going to be agony. Melinda Melinda From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Jul 2 13:14:19 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 13:14:19 -0000 Subject: OOP: Harry's emotional life In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66742 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ajlboston" wrote: > > ya > da > da > dum > de > blah > blah > etc > etc > ya > da > ya > > > > > > > I have finally recalled and dare mention what irked me during this > book that I thoroughly enjoyed reading. > > Here, while we know there is a lot going on to describe in this > novel, I am surprised at how little Harry's thoughts are mentioned of > these other characters-- it's mainly Ron and Hermione that he speaks > to. He also > must miss Sirius, and be glad to see Lupin again, but I didn't see > much description of their emotional interaction while Harry was at 12 > Grimmauld or his thoughts about them while he was at school (though > of course he thought of Sirius more often than Lupin). Are we > supposed to assume that Harry is bonding with S. and L. in those > holiday and preschool weeks at Grimmauld and it's just offstage > because we are busy learning about other stuff? I think that JKR glosses over stretches of time like the time spent at Grimmauld Place because that's not where she wants to take the story. You'd think that at least once or twice during that time Harry might have asked some pertinent questions of Sirius - pertinent to what we the readers want to know. But, apparently he doesn't. On the one hand, that seems like odd behavior. On the other hand, that's not how JKR is structuring the story. As far as Sirius and Harry bonding, there were a number of small, thoughts that JKR threw in that, I think, indicated Harry's continued growing affection towards his godfather. When he arrives in Grimmauld Place, Harry realizes that Sirius is not too happy with Dumbledore, either. He feels "an upsurge of affection" for Sirius. When Harry's back at Hogwarts and sees what Percy said about him, parroting the same sorts of drivel that the Daily Prophet prints about him, he feels a "surge of sympathy" for Sirius. And he realizes that Sirius is the only person in his life who would understand Harry's current feelings because Sirius also has lived with a huge part of his society believing horrible things about him. When Harry is confused by Cho's actions, he wishes he could contact Sirius and talk to him about girls. So, I think JKR has shown Harry's emotional connection to Sirius. It's just too bad that the cirmcumstances severely limited their ability to communicate more often with each other. But, I know what you mean. I've often felt that I've been cheated of getting a fuller picure of the relationships between characters in the Potter books. But, we can't know Harry's every single thought through every single day, or the books would be encyclopedic in size. So, yeah, a certain amount of stuff has to happen offstage. Marianne From sandyluppino at comcast.net Wed Jul 2 12:49:04 2003 From: sandyluppino at comcast.net (sjlupin) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 12:49:04 -0000 Subject: OOP: Re: Scary Thought In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66743 > > I am not sure right now, but I think it was Charlie, who failed the > first time, not Percy. > > And Neville has still more than a year time. We have to see how he > will progress. Considering how he developped in OOTP, I think there > is very well a possibility that he will do well in Apparate. > > Hickengruendler My 2 knuts: I also think Neville lacked confidence and self esteem and the growth he realized during the 5th year will bring him back to Hogwarts a new wizard, ready to continue growing. A little confidence can go a loooong way! sjlupin "It's an occupational hazard of being a werewolf ... " From meboriqua at aol.com Wed Jul 2 13:26:11 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 13:26:11 -0000 Subject: OOP: Harry and Ginny? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66744 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "prisoneroflittlewhinging" wrote: >The only thing I'm not understanding is how some of you are getting the idea that Harry will end up with Ginny. I've never seen any evidence that he thinks of her as anything more than just his friend's little sister or, at the most, a friend.> You're right. I can't deny that there is little evidence to support the idea that Harry will fall madly in love with Ginny. I have to admit that the evidence for Harry/Hermione is a bit more compelling (looks meaningfully at Penny), but I am a H/G shipper for more personal reasons. If Harry starts to see Ginny differently, it would be like all the unrequited crushes I had in high school were returned. I am rooting for Ginny because I remember what it was like to long for that cute boy in my school who was nice to me... and that was it. Aside from that, we all know JKR plants both red herrings and red flags everywhere in HP. I can't help but hope that Ginny's crush on Harry in CoS is a red flag and will become significant later. I also couldn't help but notice Ron's "furtive" look at Harry when they discussed who might be the right boy for Ginny. Again, I can't necessarily prove that Ron was looking at Harry like that because he approves of Harry as an appropriate boyfriend for Ginny, but I'd like to think the idea has been planted in Harry's mind and he'll have time to think about Ginny over the summer - how she's changed, how she was there to help out at the MoM, how she's a good listener... As much as I like Hermione, I value her as a friend for Harry and really really really really really really hope they remain nothing more than friends through the end of book 7. Then again, I never had crushes on my male friends, so that is something I can't relate to and don't particularly like. > Personally, I think Harry should end up with...well...ME! Oops! Did I say that out loud? Sorry.> Lol! See, this is it! This is why I want a Ginny/Harry thing. The fantasy in my head of being a 15 year old witch who attends Hogwarts includes a big fat crush on Harry. I want to live vicariously through Ginny! --jenny from ravenclaw, who can only imagine Penny's response to this **************************************** From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Jul 2 13:34:09 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 13:34:09 -0000 Subject: OoP: Inheritance, Vault 711? In-Reply-To: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30B04D@msgmsp16.norwest.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66745 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jennifer.r.junker at w... wrote: > > > If Harry inherits, wouldn't that mean that he's been acknowledged as > Sirius's leagal child? Could one of his pureblood relatives then > seek legal custody? Oh dear! > > > > (Jennifer (me): only if he is considered an heir for intestacy purposes is > this a concern- i.e. he would have had to have been legally adopted to take > through intestacy. > If he is DEVISED the property through a Will- he need not have been a child- > or even a relative of Sirius. There is of course the slight problem that > he's a minor- and minor's generally can't own property in their own name > (i.e. have to have a legal guardian of the estate or trust set up)- this is > the USA's laws I'm rambling about, however- possibly the UK is different. We've been speculating on what happens to 12 Grimmauld Place. Personally, if I inherited it, I'd let the Order use it until Vmort was defeated, and then I'd burn the place to the ground... but, that's just me. What about whatever might be lurking in Sirius' Gringotts vault? The same issues apply, I'd assume, regarding who would inherit. But, I wonder if there might not be something stored in that vault that might play a part in the future. Perhaps something that Harry should inherit, or that Sirius was holding for him, but that Harry can't receive until he reaches his majority. Or, somehow, the key to vault 711 (I think that's the number of Sirius' vault as written in UK version of PoA) falls into Harry's hands. He doesn't know who's vault it is, but, in typical Harry fashion, decides to check it out. He goes to Gringott's, is allowed access to the vault (would the goblins let him in just because he had the key...Hmmm), and there he discovers...? Pure speculation, I know, but I have to do something while I wait for Book 6! Marianne From jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com Wed Jul 2 13:34:43 2003 From: jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com (jennifer.r.junker at wellsfargo.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 08:34:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Harry and Ginny? Message-ID: <3DAAD771CF43D411BE6C0000580119370A30B05E@msgmsp16.norwest.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66746 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "prisoneroflittlewhinging" wrote: >The only thing I'm not understanding is how some of you are getting the idea that Harry will end up with Ginny. I've never seen any evidence that he thinks of her as anything more than just his friend's little sister or, at the most, a friend.> ************************** I know - but I can't help but want the two of them to end up together. After OOP Ginny has risen to almost the top of my favorite character's lists. And think what dating (marrying in the future) would mean to Harry (assuming they don't have a bad break up.) His surrogate family could potentially become his family in truth- he would actually be part of what he has always wanted- a large loving family. Also, Harry saved Ginny in CoS which has to have created some sort of bond between them. My hope is that Harry is going to actually use his glasses and see Ginny for who she is -rather then just seeing her as Ron's sister. Jennifer From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Jul 2 13:38:34 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 13:38:34 -0000 Subject: Good Morning (OOP filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66747 Good Morning (OOP, Chap. 12) To the tune of the same name from Singin in the Rain, written by Arthur Freed, Music by Nacio Herb Brown. Dedicated to Kirstini THE SCENE: DADA class. UMBRIDGE introduces herself to the Gryffindor students (The class actually met in the afternoon ? since afternoon would not scan, I'm taking the license of moving the initial DADA class to be before lunch.) UMBRIDGE: Good mornin', Good mornin'! It's my DADA debut Good mornin' Good mornin' to you. Good mornin', good mornin'! Now I demand reply GRYFFINDOR STUDENTS (through gritted teeth) Good mornin', good mornin' to you. UMBRIDGE: Now your wands please put away Your textbook open wide Only Ministry-approved Information is inside We're reforming, reforming! First chapter now read through, Informing, informing for you, And you, and you, and you! HERMIONE (with her hand raised) I'm swarming I'm swarming With questions just for you. UMBRIDGE: Ignoring, I'm ignoring you. HERMIONE (with her hand raised) I've got a little query why you're only teaching theory UMBRIDGE: I am scornin', I am scornin', Don't sweat, there is no threat No storming, I'm informing you. HARRY & RON: She wants us not to think hard So she's got us reading Slinkhard UMBRIDGE: When you took this class before Your teachers were not bright Now risk is gone Danger withdrawn 'Cause this is school not real life So I'm affirmin'! Affirmin'! No one wants to get you Good people .. HARRY: There's evil! UMBRIDGE: I'll scold! HARRY: Lord Vold! UMBRIDGE: That will points cost! HARRY: How was Ced lost? UMBRIDGE: Misfortune! HARRY: Lord scorchin'! UMBRIDGE: Do not tell lies! HARRY: I won't revise! UMBRIDGE: Detention for you. (Exit Harry, to McGonagall's office) - CMC (I can't figure out what to do with the "Waka laka laka wa" refrain at the end) HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From silmariel at telefonica.net Wed Jul 2 12:05:08 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (silmariel) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 14:05:08 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Neville's Wand and the Prophecy Message-ID: <200307021405.08154.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 66748 Seems Yahoomort has eaten this post. Sorry if it gets reposted. > ****Koticzka's comment: > > And there is no reason to suspect that the phoenix gave a third feather, > nor is there proof that the wand does matter. I don't know if this has been noticed (UK version): Chapter 22: pg 419 "[...] leaving a single golden feather [...] said DD, catching the feather as it fell" pg 422 "[...] by a single golden phoenix tail feather" In Lexicon, phoenix has golden feathers only in the tail. There is canon for, I think, two wand cores (If a wandmaker does them). Hope it helps, silmariel From Dionysos at Dionysia.org Wed Jul 2 13:51:28 2003 From: Dionysos at Dionysia.org (Dan Delaney) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 09:51:28 -0400 Subject: NASA: Harry Potter and the Moons of Jupiter References: <200307021405.08154.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: <006a01c340a1$094ed720$940310ac@powercreative.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66749 Here's a nice little article from NASA commenting on the "Good Astronomy" in Harry Potter. J.K. obviously did her homework :-) Harry Potter and the Moons of Jupiter http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2003/02jul_harrypotter.htm?list965714 --Dan From mbarclay at lee.edu Wed Jul 2 13:56:21 2003 From: mbarclay at lee.edu (Barclay, Maggie) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 08:56:21 -0500 Subject: OOP: Life Debt? Message-ID: <8F497E280916D4119B0100A0C9EA53E7021D5A71@leonardo.lee.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 66750 I've been spending time this morning (when I should have been working) wondering why Sirius had to die. Sirius could have stayed home as he was asked, but he chose to go to the Ministry. I know that is in his character, but I think he might have been slightly more willing to stay and play messenger if Harry had not been one of the people in danger. If Harry hadn't been one of those in danger, Sirius's motivation in going would have been adventure and a sense of doing something valuable for the Order. But since Harry was in danger, Sirius's motivation was to protect Harry. So Sirius died to protect Harry. Sound familiar? Also, so much was going on in that room, how do we know that Sirius didn't, I don't know, step between Bellatrix and Harry as she yelled "Avada Kedavra"? That would make the life debt even more evident. MaggieB--who is hoping Sirius's death meant something, and that the whimpering Peter Pettigrew finds out that his master can't kill Harry because the friend he wasn't willing to die for died for Harry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fitzchivalryhk at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 14:07:48 2003 From: fitzchivalryhk at yahoo.com (fitzchivalryhk) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 14:07:48 -0000 Subject: OOP: Snape is still BAD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66751 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "magicroxx" wrote: > Most IMPORTANTLY though, in the webcast interview, JK says that all > the people who like Snape and Draco are scary. (well not exactly, I > am paraphrasing) BUT, she says the reason Snape never got the DADA > job was because Dumbledore thought it would bring out the worst in > him. I have read quite a number of theories about Snape I don't like in the group. And though I don't like them, I respect that those people who raise the theories give some valid points. Your comments imply that all people who like Snape are scary. To me, it sound like a personal attack on the Snape fans in the group. You also claimed that "Snape fans are scary" was a statement by JKR, which is completely untrue. She definitely did NOT say that. >She said, don't feel too sorry for Snape, he is definitely worth > keeping your eyes on. Actually, she said (in exact words): "You shouldn't think he's too nice, let me just say that. He's worth keeping an eye on." Which is quite different from "feel too sorry". Fitz. From acukier at uol.com.br Wed Jul 2 14:01:43 2003 From: acukier at uol.com.br (alexcukier) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 14:01:43 -0000 Subject: My OoP Opinion: Spoilers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66752 Hi guys, Thank God we in Brazil were able to get the book at the same time everyone in the world! Well, after 2 re-re-readings of the book (British Edition), I come back to give my opinion (after the BIP): BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP BIP 1) This book is the most pessimist, scarier and "teenage-like" of the five already published; 2) I liked GoF and PoA plot most, but the quality e complexity of OoP history is higher by far; 3) In my opinion, people who believes that Petunia know much more about WW are right, and I loved when I read an opinion that maybe she had some affair with one of Lily's friends (Sirius/Snape?)! 4) Who was concerned about no-evil-female-characters must be real excited with Dolores Umbridge and Bellatrix Lestrange (Voldemort's female pupil...?) 5) I agree that the Chapter 35 - Beyond the Veil is too much "Hollywood style". The combat description is excessively detailed and I didn't like it at all. 6) When JK was asked if Sirius would be cleared anytime, in one interview (I don't remember which one) and she said something like: "I'll not tell or it would ruin future plots", I knew that he probably would be killed - I just didn't think it was on book 5, nor by a Dath Eater (my bet was by an Auror). 7) Know that Hagrid brought a Grawp with him, and Harry & Company are growing up fast, his "adult-but-same-like-us" role is almost empty. They don't need his support - they only feel responsible for protect him, instead. I'm sure he's one of the next ones to die. 8) I'm positive sure that Luna's character was created in order to develop some important plot. In my opinion, some part of her role was cut by GoF because that "Plot Error" everybody knows, and she was the character chose to do it from OoP to the end. Some of "The Weasley Cousin" role mentioned before is obviously in her. The problem is that we have a sensation that we were fooled not being introduced to her in any way before (I don't buy that JK drop "The Lovegoods" mention in GoF with to second intentions. Probably she dropped lots of signs on the books that she is not going to use anytime!). I believed that Luna's role is going to be more and more important, for good or evil, but I didn't like her far-fetched introduction. 9) I loved the early explanation about family relations in the "Pureblood Wizard World". It explain a lot some things in the past, as well as Snape's Worst Memories. It's important to show everybody that nobody has a pure black or white character. The Marauders, specially James, did their mistakes when teenage. 10) A question: Where are Lilly's friends at school? Was Bellatrix or Umbridge one of them? I'm developing a theory about why Dumbledore feels so guilty about not telling Harry the prophecy before. He shows a lot of sorrow, but not buy Sirius death. The truth is much more terrible and deep that we can suppose...but that will be another post. Alex Cukier - The Brazilian Huge Fan! - Studying OoP very carefully and improving my English as well. From angem55 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 12:48:43 2003 From: angem55 at yahoo.com (angem55) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 12:48:43 -0000 Subject: TBAY: OOP: Too much butterbeer--Terry gets the D!Ts (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66753 I too could use a Butterbeer, a stuffed bear, and a bunk on the USS SAD DENIAL. Lupin says it all when he says, "He can't come back, because he's d...." Need someone to help Dobby swab the deck? From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 14:48:03 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 07:48:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Scary Thought In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030702144803.42293.qmail@web20003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66754 --- Simon Taplin wrote: > Here's a scacry though. From the different books, we > have found out that > Apparating is not east. Percy failed before getting > his license but the > twins managed on their first time. And that many > wizards/witches won't > apparate becos its difficult/dangerous. > > Now can anybody see Neville doig well with > apparating or will he be visiting > the local wizard hospital for unspecified injuries > :> > > Simon Actually, I believe it was Charlie who failed the first time, not Percy. You know, I'm not sure if they have to go to the hospital for apparating accidents. Can't call it up from memory. Anyway, Neville should be practising to get his license during the summer. Whether or not we see it depends on where Harry is. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 14:39:37 2003 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (owlery2003) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 14:39:37 -0000 Subject: OOP: Life Debt? In-Reply-To: <8F497E280916D4119B0100A0C9EA53E7021D5A71@leonardo.lee.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66755 Very much in keeping with Sirius, really. Even with 10,000 galleons on his head, he jumps right into the fray at the MoM. Your post raised a question that has me thinking (at work, too) of when the Pettigrew indebtedness is going to come into play. You would have thought if Wormtail was going to cut Harry any slack it would have been in the final pages of GoF. But not a bit of it. Maybe becuase Voldy was looking over his shoulder? Pettigrew's indebtedness to Harry has got to figure into the final 2 books, and the longer it's held back, the more prominent it's likely to be. Something like Gollum's role in Lord of the Rings. SMS From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Wed Jul 2 14:48:41 2003 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (Edis) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 14:48:41 -0000 Subject: OOP: TONKS AGE (WASnape, the Pensieve, and "Perseus"+Tonks and Auror!Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66756 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kirstini" wrote: >>Auror training takes three years after Hogwarts, so newly qualified Tonks, assuming she didn't have a gap year, must be about 20-21 <<< Tonks has never met Harry before the Advance Guard meets him in the kitchen. (Canon: Tonks' remarks on Harry's appearance). This suggests that Tonks was not at Hogwarts when Harry was there. So at the least she must be about 8 years older than Harry - her final Hogwarts year being at least the year before Harry enters school. That maker her 23 plus. Edis From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jul 2 14:50:49 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 14:50:49 -0000 Subject: TBAY- Grand Opening! The morning after. (Slight spoiler) In-Reply-To: <5DA25D64-ABD2-11D7-B971-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66757 Hermione stretched langorously as she reclined at ease in the parlour at MADAM W's. The opening night had been a triumph. Idly she traced a pattern in the spilt butterbeer and Droobles wrappers with her wand. "I must remember to thank Rita for giving me the idea for this," she thought, "and with what I know about her, she'd better give me a good write up." On the other side of the room a House Elf wearing one sock and a thong several sizes too big was sorting through the party debris. "Get a move on!" snapped Hermione. "I've set you free and I pay you good money - now earn it!" She glanced around. "And while you're at it, get rid of that." She pointed at a large item of furniture. "I don't need a Casting Couch to cast my spells!" "Yes, Mistress," quavered the Elf, "Please Mistress," it continued, "is this what freedom is?" "Of course! Before you were oppressed! Now you have freedom - freedom to choose to do what I want or starve on the beach with the rest of the losers!" Honestly! The ingratitude of some people! She glanced at the clock. Not long before that Loony Lovegood was due for her girl to girl chat. Be a push-over this one, she believed anything. And she'd been paying all too much attention to Ron. Definitely to be discouraged. No other influences will be tolerated. Just let drop that Ron thinks she's a raving nutter who belongs in the locked ward in St Mungo's, and another little problem will be solved. It even had the virtue of being the truth. Much more subtlety had been needed to deal with Cho. Giving Harry advice that he'd find incomprehensible and would throw him off balance, and at the same time hint to Cho that Harry was an insensitive beast with the consideration of a horklump. So predictable! Yes, things were ticking along nicely. Let Harry have the public adulation, while in the background..... She gently scratched Crookshanks' ears and on the radio the old Muggle group ELO were singing "Evil Woman". She smiled, knowingly. Kneasy started to place his bets From rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 14:53:30 2003 From: rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 14:53:30 -0000 Subject: OOP: Snape is still BAD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66758 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fitzchivalryhk" wrote: > Actually, she said (in exact words): > "You shouldn't think he's too nice, let me just say that. > He's worth keeping an eye on." > > Which is quite different from "feel too sorry". I don't think any of us think Snape is 'nice'. In fact IMO that's the whole point of the character; to show a person can be quite nasty and unpleasant yet when the chips are down on the side of the angels. Of course we've now found out that James and Sirius weren't quite nice themselves once upon a time and they are definitely counted among the good guys. From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 2 14:55:40 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 14:55:40 -0000 Subject: TBAY: OoP: STUFFED BEARS, Firewhiskey, and some very bad Apparation. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66760 Down at the Royal George, Kirstini was feeling a bit woozy. The wake had started off lively enough, but everyone had now drunk so much that they were getting maudlin. George himself was still looking quite cheerful. He'd made a rather tidy profit out of the night's proceedings, enough to buy a particularly splendid looking SILK SHIRT from Kirstini. He kept catching his reflection in the Butterbeer pump and winking. Kirstini had been rather glad to make the sale. She only had a couple left now, and was hoping to flog them before Oriyami caught up with her and demanded copyright. Besides, Kirstini was violently allergic to SILK. It made her come out in a nasty rash. She felt rather drained. It was probably the combination of too much Firewhisky and the third communual crying session of the night. Space. She needed a little space. She looked round the table. Darrin, who had been incongruously spirited into TBAY for the occasion, was pounding the table and yelling "He was my boy! He was my boy, yunno?", and spilling Firewhisky down his "I love Madame Rosmerta" T-Shirt, surrounded by a group of nervously nodding new listies with tear-streaked faces. Kirstini was rather embarrassed to see that the cheap dye she had used on the T-shirt was already running. She made a discreet exit to the bathroom before Darrin noticed and demanded his money back, and she washed all the mascara off her face, neck and arms. Just then, she heard a voice "...Perhaps in the future, we'll see not one, but two characters restored to their proper place in the universe: Nick will stop being a ghost and go through the veil, and Sirius will come back! Got another one of those bears?" "Whosat?" Kirstini slurred, scratching her head. Something caught in her nail. "Blurry Extendable Ears," she muttered. It took a while for the realisation to dawn, because her brain was whisky-fuzzy. "At'll be one of the Extendable Ears I put in all the TBAY vessels the other day, yeah?" she shouted at her reflection in the bathroom mirror. "Not so LOUD! `M a bit runk." observed her reflection. "An judging from what they were saying, s'sounds like the SAD DENIAL! I could make a sale! I'm sure v'got one of those STUFFED BEARS somewhere in here!" "That's the spirit, dear." said her reflection, sleepily. With a loud noise which could either have been a crack or a pop, Kirstini Disapparated... ...and landed outside the George. On the foot of a rather frightening looking woman, who was haranguing someone she vaguely recognised from the pub. "Ouch!" shrieked the woman. "You should *never* Apparate when over the limit. Some people! Anyway, so I told her, 'JKR! She *said* he was dead! She cried over him!' Now that's proof if anything." "Well maybe not," countered the other woman, not looking a bit frightened, "Didn't JKR say that she cried because she knew how it would affect Harry? Harry believes Sirius is dead, so he has to grieve. JKR likes Harry, so it must've been painful to put a character in such a situation. Besides there is that thing with the Thestrals, that's quite convincing actually." Dark!Terry glared at her again, "So you *do* believe." "Heh, well, for me its more of an intuition thing. I never really got attached to Sirius, and the canon is pretty solid against him surviving. BUT my gut tells me he isn't dead. Its that rule of soap operas 'there's no body, so anything is game.' Even if I was hit over the head with a huge GetOverItHe'sDead mallet, I still wouldn't accept it on personal merit." "I don' bleev it," Kirstini slurred. "She didn't say "how it would affect Harry." She *said* "And that person was definitely dead." Thassit. Finito. He's not coming back. It just wouldn't work otherwise. An' I'm going over to the SAD DENIAL to tell them that!" "Yeah, well, good luck" muttered Dark!Terry sarcastically. "NOTHING is going to get through over there. I'm telling you." "Anyway," said the other woman, who Kirstini thought was perhaps called Star, "isn't it a bit cruel? Let them have their denial and work through it." "Thass what I did," said Kirstini, nodding emphatically. "So I can *help* them, you see! An maybe make a liddle sale..." "I'm not so sure that's a good idea!" Star shouted. However, Kirstini had already Disapparated. CRACK/POP(delete as applicable)! She landed in the middle of a large, black-painted warehouse with chains hanging from the ceiling. On a stage in front of her, a bushy-haired Pvc-clad dominatrix was whipping a small group of teenage boys, while Kneasy looked on happily. "Sorry Kneas, `m a bit drunk. Keep landing in the wrong place." Kirstini called, and Disapparated again, without properly taking in what she had just seen. Finally, she reached the deck of the SAD DENIAL. She could hear the sound of a rather drunken squabble coming from inside the cabin. "...no. It's *my* BEAR. Get your own!" "Aw, come on. I need a little hug. Look - I'll just hold the leg..." "Ladies!" Kirstini intoned dramatically as she entered the cabin. "You two shouldn't be fighting. You're on the same frigate. And it just so happens that I've got another BEAR right here." "You!" said Terry, coolly. "Oh yes, I've been wanting a word with you." She stood up from the sofa, snatching the bear away from Marina as she did so. Kirstini blinked. "But didn't I ? you. Mm. Sorry about your foot." "My foot? There's nothing wrong with my foot. It's these darned mugs. They've started leaking." "Oh." said Kirstini, looking sheepish. "Well, if you come and see me in the morning," She swayed a little. "maybe the afternoon... Anyway. I've brought you another BEAR just now." She reached into one of her coat pockets, pulled out an identical STUFFED BEAR, and handed it to Marina. "How did you get that?" Terry asked, suspiciously. "It was mine. I clung to it all the way through my second re-reading of OoP, but I'm starting to feel that I don't need it anymore. Course, it breaks my heart to let it go, even for such a reasonable price..." "Yes. I thought there might be something like that." Terry said. However, Marina didn't seem to have heard the last exchange. She had wrapped her arms tightly round the bear and was whispering contentedly into its fur. "It's all about the Thestrals. They can find any location you ask them to go to. And you know what that means, don't you? Not only can they find their way beyond the veil, but they can also find the way *back*! Sirius is a special case, isn't he? Most people pass behind the veil as spirits, leaving their bodies on this side. You can't bring back a disembodied spirit. But Sirius went through physically. He should be able to come back physically. All he needs is transport..." "Why don't you need the BEAR any more?" asked Terry, suspiciously. "Do you mean to tell me that you've changed your mind, that Sirius *doesn't* Deserve a Better End And Revival? Because I could throw you off my ship for that sort of opinion, you know. We might be relatively free of weaponry on the SAD DENIAL, but we certainly do have a plank!" Kirstini blinked again, and stumbled drunkenly backwards. "Look, I'm just trying to demonstrate that I've come to feel that Sirius' death was rather beautiful, and cemented his importance to the plot. I've been trying to tell everyone for...well, for *days* now that the whole point of OoP involves a shift away from perceived notions of right and wrong as black and white. Harry is gradually moving to mature acceptance, viewing the world in shades of grey. That's why it's so important that Umbridge isn't a Death Eater, and that Wormtail wasn't just another sneaky Slytherin, but a Gryffindor gone bad. Sirius himself has the most important line in the whole book: "There aren't just good people and Death Eaters". OoP functions as a counterpoint to the system of absolutes which structures childhood." "Right," said Terry. "So death itself isn't absolute either?" "No, no no!" said Kirstini. "Sirius *is* dead. Definitely. And he can't come back. Harry has to use this death to grow up from. I think at some point, he's going to be in a position to use an Unforgivable on Bellatrix again, and he's going to realise that all the violence, all the magic in the world isn't going to bring him back. He has to come round to an acceptance of reality. Besides, I don't like what this BEAR stands for anymore. Don't you think that that was a fitting, beautiful death? Alright, there wasn't a long and moving deathbed scene, but it was a war death, and indicative of the presense of a new realism within the series. Look at him. He falls gracefully, aesthetically, through a metaphor, and it seems to be a senseless death at first, but then becomes infused with meaning within the text as a whole. He receives a rather wonderful memorial, in the form of a heart-wrenchingly sustained and realistic grieving process, which takes Harry's character to an entirely new level." "Yes, yes. We've heard this quite a lot on the DENIAL. She's even developed an other self to argue this way with her." observed Marina, jerking a thumb at Terry. "*You*, however, haven't answered our argument properly at all. What about the Thestrals?" "Yeah. Does anybody really think that JKR would introduce such a fascinating creature, with such intriguing characteristics, just to have them play a minor role and then be forgotten?" asked Terry, rather belligerently. "I really do like the idea about the Thestrals, but I think it's going to work rather differently." said Kirstini, taking a couple of steps back from the other two, who were beginning to look rather bloodthirsty. "Say Harry reaches the other side of the veil, what will he find there? His parents and Sirius, plus Cedric; or rather, versions of them as they were. Their characters won't have progressed from the points of their death, therefore they will have nothing new to offer Harry, and the point of his going beyond the veil will be to realise this. It's like the Mirror of Erised all over again, but the point is that this time no-one will have to take it away from Harry; he'll take that step for himself. "Wasn't there a small foreshadowing of this in OoP, in the fireplace scene, just a sense that Harry was beginning to already outgrow Sirius? This way Sirius never completes that particular, destabilising, trajectory, and remains at a frozen point in the series. He becomes an icon, complete in himself and the connotations he invokes, but unable to help Harry progress further. . Still heroic, every loyal, and damn, damn sexy. But frozen, before the reader gets too close and can smell the stale drink off him..." "You're one to talk." commented Phineas, quietly. However, Marina had jumped up from the couch, and was pointing a large wand at Kirstini. "Alright, that's enough from you. Take that back!" she yelled. "Wait! You misunderstand me. We never do get to smell the stale drink! She's preserved him at a particular point: not quite as handsome as he was in the Pensieve, perhaps, but now complete with the marks of his love for Harry, and the way that affected him. There's just a tiny bit after Molly sees the Boggart, when it ends up as Dead!Harry. It's Lupin who's got the power to dispose of the Boggart, remember ? Sirius is just standing there, staring at the place on the carpet where Dead!Harry had been. He couldn't have helped him further, and so, rather than show this weakness developing, JKR writes him a beautiful, graceful death." "I don't really care for your tone. It all sounds a bit Third Reich to me. You're saying he had to be exterminated because he had outlived his usefulness," Terry said. Marina, however, had sat back down, and was whispering to her BEAR again. "Yes, but his death itself becomes monumentally significant to Harry. His death becomes part of him, part of the total connotative freight of the character within the series. He becomes hugely important. Pivotal." said Kirstini,pleadingly. " Oh, what's the use. I should've known I couldn't make much impact here." Something from one of her pockets buzzed. She fished out a small mirror, glanced into it and murmured "Hang on a sec, Dung." Looking up, she saw that Marina, still hugging the BEAR, had dozed off. "She can keep that," she said, shortly. "For free. I've got to go. Go to see a man about some cauldrons." And with a noise that some called a crack, and others a pop, she was gone. "I don't believe it." said Phineas. From melclaros at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 14:56:39 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 14:56:39 -0000 Subject: Why did Lily marry James ? / Snapes other worst memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66761 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowena_grunnionffitch" < > > I also don't see the "James grew up" scenario as plausible. Yes, it > > is very possible that James did mature, lose his arrogance, and > become > > a very likeable guy in the span of two years. > > Let us not forget we are talking about a man who sacrificed his > life in an attempt to buy time for his wife and infant son to escape > Voldemort - Any man would do that! Snape would have done that! That's protecting "your own". You don't have to shed arrogance and bravado to be "the type" that will try to save your own flesh and blood from being murdered in front of you. The question is, would James have tried to save...oh...say Severus' son if the situation had been reversed? We don't know who said, "Lily it's him..etc." *I suspect* James was already dead by then. It'll be interesting to find out just who tried to save what. not to mention having the guts to join the OotP in what > must have been the Order's darkest days. Psssst. Snape did that too... on the quiet, but he did it.... Melpomene From tcyhunt at earthlink.net Wed Jul 2 15:08:22 2003 From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (tcyhunt) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 15:08:22 -0000 Subject: Podmore was: Re: OoP: HELP ME ON BODE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66762 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kirstini" wrote: > > Susan: > > Who are Sturgis Podmore and Broderick Bode (I may have the names > > slightly wrong)? Are they both MoM workers who are also Death > > Eaters? Or just MoM workers who tried to get prophecy, and could > not? > Sturgis Podmore is a member of the Order. One of those many million > who come to pick Harry up and don't have any lines. he gets arrested > for "trying to get through a door" - presumably having been > Imperious'd. > Kirstini Now me: I had a similar question about Sturgis Podmore....but I remember that name from earlier in the series. I did some checking and found the name Sir Patrick Delaney-Podmore as the leader of the headless hunt in CoS. Anyone think there maybe a connection? Tcy From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Jul 2 15:15:42 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 11:15:42 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why did Lily marry James ? / Snapes other worst memory Message-ID: <3c.31f6cb49.2c34511e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66763 In a message dated 7/2/2003 10:01:06 AM Central Standard Time, melclaros at yahoo.com writes: > Any man would do that! Snape would have done that! That's > protecting "your own". You don't have to shed arrogance and bravado > to be "the type" that will try to save your own flesh and blood from > being murdered in front of you. The question is, would James have > tried to save...oh...say Severus' son if the situation had been > reversed? > I don't for a minute believe that any man would do that for his family. It takes a certain *something* in the person . .bravery . . . . recklessness . .or maybe just plain ol' love to sacrifice yourself. I can't quite see Lucius doing it Draco and Narcissa but based on the little we saw of Phineas (especially his reaction to Sirius) I can see him making that sacrifice. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From deadstop at wombatzone.com Wed Jul 2 15:38:19 2003 From: deadstop at wombatzone.com (Stacy Forsythe) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 11:38:19 -0400 Subject: Tonks' Age Message-ID: <4.3.2.20030702113339.00b4f8c8@pop.uky.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 66764 quoth Edis: >Tonks has never met Harry before the Advance Guard meets him in the >kitchen. (Canon: Tonks' remarks on Harry's appearance). > >This suggests that Tonks was not at Hogwarts when Harry was there. >So at the least she must be about 8 years older than Harry - her >final Hogwarts year being at least the year before Harry enters >school. That maker her 23 plus. If Tonks turned 18 in the summer after her last year (as Harry will), she could be 22 when Harry meets her. (18 the summer before SS, 19 before CoS, 20 before PoA, 21 before GoF, 22 before OoP.) If Tonks turned 18 the September of Harry's first year (paralleling Hermione, per the CoS DVD timeline), she could actually still be 21 when they meet in the summer. (18 in September '91, 19 in September '92, 20 in September '93, 21 in September '94, and 22 not 'til September '95.) Of course, she would turn 22 fairly early in OoP, in that case. Still, she can be younger than 23 and still have not been at school with Harry. Stacy Forsythe deadstop at wombatzone.com From atroposgryffin at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 15:44:06 2003 From: atroposgryffin at yahoo.com (Susan Smith) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 15:44:06 -0000 Subject: OoP Molly's Maiden Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66766 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mirzam Black" wrote: It was mentioned, that Weasleys are related to Sirius, and Sirius is Narcissas cousin. Arthur Weasley is Narcissas second cousin, and Molly is cousin to Sirius via marriage. Although of course Molly can be related to Lucius, who only is Narcissas husband. But Draco and Ron are already related pretty clear. Arthur is "something like my (Sirius') second cousin once removed" and Narcissa is Sirius' PATERNAL Aunt. Just to make it exciting, let's assume Arthur is 2nd cousin once removed on paternal side-that does not mean he is Narcissa's second cousin-does it? Anyway, the past posts, HP-Lexicon, and JKR interview clips have me believing Arthur and Molly are both related to Sirius on his MATERNAL side. If that is the case he is NOT related to Malfoys, but could he be related to another wizarding family on that side, ie the Dumbledore's or the Evans? Atropos G. From morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 15:46:14 2003 From: morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com (Morgan D.) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 15:46:14 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: OOP READ THIS FIRST - Frequently Asked Questions, most frequent answers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66767 Grey Wolf, as the FAQer, said: > ? What the deuce is the Black Veil? > > The Black Veil is a very common representation of death. To cross > the Veil is a way of describing death. 'To go beyond the veil' is > another common phrase. > > ? What killed Sirius? > > Probably crossing the veil (see "the black veil", above). Morgan D. asks: Since the explanation is that Sirius died because he fell through a metaphor, does that mean that if instead of a veil the Death Chamber contained a bucket, and Sirius had accidentally kicked said bucket and immediately dropped dead, that would have been acceptable in terms of a good plot resolution? Just a question. Morgan D. Hogwarts Letters - http://www.hogwartsletters.hpg.com.br From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 15:47:01 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 08:47:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Grindelwald and Badge Colors (WAS: A few questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030702154701.99057.qmail@web20001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66768 --- Susan Smith wrote: > > > Percy Weasley's prefect badge, however, was silver > (canon on this), > so at some point JKR changed her description of > badges. > > Susan Where do the books describe Percy's badge as silver? I believe you, I remembered it as silver myself. But I couldn't find the reference. I then just assumed I was remembering Tom Riddle's prefect badge or the Headboy badge. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From bard7696 at aol.com Wed Jul 2 16:05:49 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 16:05:49 -0000 Subject: OoP - Occlumency - A case for Evil!Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66769 Maritza: > > What other way was there for Snape to teach Harry Occlumency? Just > like when Lupin was teaching Harry to produce a patronus, he had to > experience it firsthand, and defend himself. Snape had to get into > Harry's mind and Harry's job was to learn how to clear his mind of > all thoughts and memories and fight Snape looking at his memories. > He's supposed to practice everynight but finds it difficult with > everything going on. Plus he's so tired at night he falls straight > to sleep the moment his head hits the pillow. We DON'T know that the true way to Occlumency is to clear your mind. That was my whole point. The examples I gave showed that when Harry went to bed with his mind full -- first of Transfiguration homework, then of hate for Umbridge - - the visions DID NOT come. And when Harry was drawing a blank in History of Magic, the vision of Sirius came. The assumption is that Harry failed to clear his mind before he went to sleep, and I don't know if the text specifically says that. It says he found it hard, but not that he failed. The only person who has explained Occlumency and how it works and how to do it is Snape. Harry did NOT share the details of his lessons with Sirius, Lupin, Hermione or McGonagall. Only Harry and Snape knew what was happening in that room. > True, and I'll go back to the whole patronous thing. Harry felt > weaker after each lesson, but as the training went on, he excelled. > I think it's also about the teacher/pupil relation. Harry trusted > Lupin fully so he didn't mind being pushed to do better. Snape being the teacher in a way made Harry care less about performing well and impressing anyone. Harry also had a clearly defined threat when Lupin was teaching him and Lupin wasn't berating him about his lack of importance, his ignorance, his alleged arrogance, and sneering at him while armed with memories of childhood. Harry never felt weaker after Lupin's lessons. Lupin made sure he'd had enough chocolate and was recovered before letting him leave the room. Harry felt MORE susceptible to the dreams after the lessons. I found it telling that during the Potions OWL, when Snape wasn't in the room, both Harry AND Neville showed an aptitutde for making potions. What does that say about your teaching skills when the students do better when you're gone? > From Snape's explanation of Occlumency, and what Lupin, Sirius, and > Dumbledore say about it throughout the book it does seem Snape was > doing his job properly- as for following the basics. All Sirius, Lupin and D-Dore say is that it is important Harry learn it. They are assuming Snape is going to do it properly. They don't go into detail about it, confirming that the "clear your mind" routine is the way to go. No one observes the lessons to see what Snape is doing. It's all on trust, which is fine if Snape is truly what he says he is, but I'm pointing out that we only have Snape's word that he was doing his best to help Harry. And by the way, even if Snape was doing it right, D-Dore admits at the end that he was wrong to give Snape the task. Snape hated James too much to properly teach Harry. > They never actually said they would tell Dumbledore themselves. And > if Dumbledore had heard about it, Harry's Occlumency lessons would > have been resumed, wether by Snape or someone else, it was an > important task. Snape went on and on to Sirius about how it was D-Dore's orders that he teach it. So, D-Dore's orders were actually phrased, "Teach Harry Occlumency, unless he pisses you off, then you don't have to?" C'mon, Snape knew this is what D-Dore wanted him to do, and he didn't do it. Hate for James, and hate for Harry prevented him. So, Snape has time to indulge in hate instead of actually performing the task D-Dore sets for him? When Sirius and Lupin are both encouraging Harry to study hard in Occlumency? When McGonagall is choking down every insult Umbridge throws at her? When Hagrid puts his life on the line? Hate on your own time, Severus. Darrin -- I love the 80s moment: "What was with Alf's nose? It was like, ribbed for her pleasure." From j.oramous at verizon.net Wed Jul 2 16:31:03 2003 From: j.oramous at verizon.net (Jenn Oramous) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 11:31:03 -0500 Subject: OOP Death Eaters In-Reply-To: <1057157390.5117.60529.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66770 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 07:09:10 -0400 From: the firey chasm from whence it came Subject: Re: Digest Number 3173 >2 How come Dumbledor does not do something to stop the >horrible, >most evil, truly terrifying Bellatrix? He was probably too preoccupied with the even more evil Voldemort. A great wizard has to keep his priorities straight, you know. ;) >And >how come all the Aurors could not defeat and >completely subdue the >Deatheaters? Because then the series could have ended with the 5th book! >3 The Death Eaters on the whole are a bit confusing. >First of all, >not all of them even think of using Avada Kedavra... Maybe JKR just wanted to use other spells. For the sake of variety. Who knows? Just because you're a DE doesn't necessarily mean you're intelligent. Sure, using AK might have been smarter, but keep in mind that these are all purebloods and therefore, inbred. And you know what they say about folks who marry their cousins...;) >Dolohov, >supposedly really evil, jinxes Neville into tap-dance? >It's almost a >joke! Yeah, that is kind of funny, come to think of it. I don't know. This is a battle scene though and I suspect that people aren't always at their most logical when they're in a battle situation. Possibly he just said the first spell that came to his mind. > > >Do all DE's have the ability to AK? I would think so, but we don't know that for sure. It is a "dark art", and you'd think they'd have learned all the basic Dark Arts from V. On the other hand, it's possible that they can't use AK without V.'s authorization. Perhaps they can only kill on his orders. We don't really know that much about the command structure of the DEs, or what their overall strategy tends to be. ~dream Now ME (Jenn): All very good points, Dream. But has anyone realized that in the fight scene the DEs were not trying to kill HRHrNLG because they had the prophecy! That is why they didn't just AK everybody. They didn't know if the prophecy had been passed off to anyone, much less that it had been broken already. As far as someone else being able to touch the Prophecy. Obviously, after its has been taken off the shelf the protection spell (the one that turns you loony) has been broken. Because Lucious asks for the prophecy without fear of being jinxed (by the prophecy) and HP later tosses it to Neville who holds it to no effect. That's just my two knuts! BTW sorry if someone else has already made these points but it is hopeless to try to keep up with every single post! We are just buzzin around here! :-) Jenn From riberam at glue.umd.edu Wed Jul 2 16:56:17 2003 From: riberam at glue.umd.edu (Maria Ribera) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 12:56:17 -0400 Subject: It's Snape's fault!!! In-Reply-To: <1057095704.9646.96514.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <19548099-ACAE-11D7-AD29-000393987376@glue.umd.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 66771 In response to my message about Snape provoking Harry's curiosity by removing his memories into the pensieve right in front of him, Victoria said: <<<>> Well, i think that's very childish, and makes him almost as guilty as Harry. And i am not trying to make Harry look innocent, as i said before he did something very wrong, but Snape is not the innocent victim here. Then Snuffles said: <<>> To which I (Maria) respond: But, if he did it on purpose to "encourage" Harry to look and find out about his father, then he should have been satisfied that he had found out, not that outraged about Harry invading his privacy. If you were right, and Snape's point was actually that Harry learned about the truth, then i don't see why he would stop with the Occlumancy lessons. greatlit2003 also had a go: <<>> While I agree, that Harry shouldn't have done it in the first place, I still think it was very stupid of Snape to do it in front of Harry, and that he was looking for trouble by doing that. Personally, if i have a secret, i don't go around yelling that i have a secret, or if i want people not to see something, i don't tell them where i hide it. Do you? Then Pickle Jimmy brought a very good point: << What evidence do we have that Snape knew that Harry knew what a pensieve was or how it worked? >> Excellent point! I agree to some extent. Again, we are limited by the fact that we see everything from Harry's point of view, and he is someone who did not grow up in the wizarding world. We don't know if the general witch or wizard knows what pensieves are, we only know that Harry didn't learn until the scene in GoF in Dumbledore's office. But even in the case that pensieves were super rare and very very limited witches or wizards know what the are and how to operate them, still i find it unwise to remove his thoughts in front of Harry and leaving the pensieve at reach. Let's go back for a moment to the scene in GoF: Dumbledore put the pensieve away but let the door open, and Harry, not knowing what it was and how it worked, got closer to it and fell inside. If this had not happened in GoF, and let's say Harry had no idea of what a pensieve was, i am sure that the same (perhaps more innocent) curiosity would have made him get closer, not knowing that he would fall inside and learn about Snape's memories. If i was Snape, is it a risk i would be willing to take? I mean, just in case, i would put it away.... Reading on the thread i found that Tanya agrees with me, thanks :) (I won't repost her email here, as i already said it above). So, that's it... back to the 100+ diggests Maria From mbush at lainc.com Wed Jul 2 16:55:35 2003 From: mbush at lainc.com (mtwelovett) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 16:55:35 -0000 Subject: Potters & Bill Weasley / timelines Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66772 I've been lurking around in the HP lexicon looking at timelines and things, and if they are correct at all, then Bill Weasley was at Hogwarts at least one year in common with the Potters. That is, he may have been a 1st year when they were 7th year, but there nonetheless. (and chances are good for more overlap than that) Will this turn out to be siginificant at all and is this part of the reason we don't see a lot of him? Would he think to tell Harry, "Yeah, your parents were there when I was?" Since we know most if not all the Weasleys were in Gryffendor and James was too. Can he provide some insight into anything regarding the Potters? Surely he would, at the very least, know of James through seeing him play Quiddich (was Bill on the team?-- I remember Charlie was.) and possibly in the common room even if they weren't close associates. Does this also mean that Molly and Arthur might have been there with James' parents? If this has been discussed before can someone please point me in the right direction of what has been said? Thanks! Mtwelovett, who is searching for clues and wanting to know more about James and Lily's background. From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Wed Jul 2 17:09:14 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 13:09:14 EDT Subject: OOP: Lucius Malfoy's age Message-ID: <37.3b108b8f.2c346bba@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 66773 Sorry if this has been covered already... ; ; ; ; ; ; ; Did anyone else notice that in the DP article that talks about Umbridge becoming High Inquisitor, there is a quote from Lucius in it, and it lists his age next to his name! He's listed there as 41 years old, which is right around the age I think Sirius, Lupin, Peter and Severus are (this is my assumption here obviously, figuring that James and Lily had Harry when they were around 25 or so). Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the first canonical confirmation of age we've received about *any* of the characters, aside from the schoolage kids, of course. I know JKR has said in interviews that DD is up there around 150 or so (is that right?) and McGonagall is in her 70's (which figures well into the canonical knowledge that she's been teaching for 39 years). But why bring up Lucius' age, specifically, and *not* bring up Sirius' or Lupin's etc?? What's so important about us knowing his age, if not to show it in relation to the old gang?? Any ideas? ~Jenny From jsmithqwert at hotmail.com Wed Jul 2 17:10:29 2003 From: jsmithqwert at hotmail.com (jsmithqwert) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 17:10:29 -0000 Subject: Digest Number 3173 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20030702070240.00a4bb70@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 66774 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, the firey chasm from whence it came wrote: > > >2 How come Dumbledor does not do something to stop the > >horrible, > >most evil, truly terrifying Bellatrix? > > He was probably too preoccupied with the even more evil Voldemort. A great > wizard has to keep his priorities straight, you know. ;) > > >And > >how come all the Aurors could not defeat and > >completely subdue the > >Deatheaters? > > Because then the series could have ended with the 5th book! > > >3 The Death Eaters on the whole are a bit confusing. > >First of all, > >not all of them even think of using Avada Kedavra... > > Maybe JKR just wanted to use other spells. For the sake of variety. Who > knows? Just because you're a DE doesn't necessarily mean you're > intelligent. Sure, using AK might have been smarter, but keep in mind that > these are all purebloods and therefore, inbred. And you know what they say > about folks who marry their cousins...;) > > >Dolohov, > >supposedly really evil, jinxes Neville into tap-dance? > >It's almost a > >joke! > > Yeah, that is kind of funny, come to think of it. I don't know. This is a > battle scene though and I suspect that people aren't always at their most > logical when they're in a battle situation. Possibly he just said the first > spell that came to his mind. > > > > > > > >Do all DE's have the ability to AK? > > I would think so, but we don't know that for sure. It is a "dark art", and > you'd think they'd have learned all the basic Dark Arts from V. On the > other hand, it's possible that they can't use AK without V.'s > authorization. Perhaps they can only kill on his orders. We don't really > know that much about the command structure of the DEs, or what their > overall strategy tends to be. > > ~dream I can think of two other reasons that they weren't all using AK constantly. 1) What if they missed? It would be really horrible to a DE to have his curse dodged or to miss and end up hitting a fellow DE. V would not be happy if his DEs accidently killed each other. 2) Imposter!Moody tells us in GoF that AK must have "a powerful bit of magic behind it," or something to that effect. Assuming that there is some kind of magic energy force or mana (which is a common element of magic throughout its much varied use in fictional literature), the DEs probably do not have the capacity to perform AK many times without time to rest and replenish the source within. jsmithqwert From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Jul 2 17:18:36 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (pennylin) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 12:18:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Harry and Ginny? References: Message-ID: <026e01c340bd$f9ad59f0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 66775 Hi -- I actually hadn't yet caught up on this thread, but for some reason, Jenny's message caught my eye. :::winks at Jenny:::::: Jenny said, regarding H/G: <<<<<>>>>>> But, what if *both* Ginny and Hermione have unrequited crushes on Harry? Does that change your analysis? Besides Ginny currently doesn't seem to be pining away for Harry, though she might secretly still hold out some hope of "someday" in her heart somewhere. But, it's not holding up her life. Hermione, OTOH, only seems to have a penpal relationship with Krum and no other romantic ties. I wonder why, when it's obvious to everyone that Ron has a crush on her? Could it be that she's pining on the inside for *someone else*? Hmmmmmmmm........ <<<<<<