[HPforGrownups] Re: OoP: What Snape is really doing out there...

[pjuel13 at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 66304

Joan says:
>First I got to say I felt that some of the anti-Snape people here are 
>a little bit overexaggerating some of Snape's so-called "nastiness" 
>in Ch.24 , it's like no matter what he do or say, they comes off 
>super evil/nasty to you guys. 

Not agreeing with your "vision" of Snape does not equate to being 
"anti-Snape." I hate to shattrer you illusions in that way but I'm not part of your 
simplistic little black and white world.

>How on earth was he "insulting" Black during that Christmas scene!?
>You call that "insult"?!
Well, there was a noteable lack of exclamation points so I can see where you 
might be confused but when last I checked implying that someone was useless 
and a coward; that they were so much of a coward infact that they actually 
manufactured a senario where they would be sighted by Voldemort's people so they 
would have an excuse to never leave the house, would be construed by most people 
as insulting. Even without explicitly reading "Black, I think you're a 
useless coward!!!" And what self-resepcting Slytherin would need to resort to that 
anyway. Reckless bluster of that sort is more the Griffindor style. 
But more on that in a moment. 

> I couldn't believe we're reading the same book. 
I confess to the same bafflement.

>Snape was taunting or teasing, yes, but insults?  
He was insulting in exactly the way a good Slytherin ought to be, subtly and 
viscously. With the nimblness of a salamander and the accuracy of a pit viper. 
It was cunning and calculated and impressive to behold and both Phineas and 
Salazar would have been proud of him. I mean that in the very best way. Draco 
is really piddling-poor excuse for a Slytherin with all his bluster and 
bigotry, he couldn't aspire to one tenth of Snape's smooth snark, even on his best 
day. 
Why not celebrate Snape's delightfully nasty abilities with phrase and word? 
He's darned good at what he does and minimising that diminishes him. 
 
>And may I remind you guys that it was Black who was being unpleasant first.
I'm not mean to assume any sort of tone from that phrase "may I remind you" 
am I? It's purely a professional phrasing is it not? 
And please do tell me how reminding Snape that he has every right to be there 
consitutes unpleasantness on Sirius' part? 

>And since when did "sit down, Potter" became a nasty rude giving-
>order talk!?  What do you anti-Snape people want him to say 
>then? "Would you please take a seat my dear/sweetheart/honey?" Snape 
>was being professional, "sit down, Potter" is nothing but being 
>professional.  

I wouldn't presume to order someone to do anything in another person's house 
before they'd had a chance to speak or act. I've always been taught that was 
rude.
And Sirius certainly did seem to think it was an order, though of course we 
can't take his perspecitve or feelings on -anything-. 

>what's exactly so wrong with "Sit down, Potter" may I ask you!? 
>I can easily see Prof. McGonagal said the same thing. 
We've seen many examples of how McGonigall talks to Harry in the books just 
as we've seen many examples of how Snape speaks to him. They vary greatly. 
McGonigall and Snape could say exactly the same thing to Harry and yet the way in 
which they they would say it would vary dramaticly.

>Ordering Harry around? How so? When? where?
He ordered him to sit didn't he? 

>And didn't Snape explained everything to Harry in a professional 
>manner the whole time?!
The whole time? 
Is deepening your sneer at a student's question professional?
Is implying that not only you but the headmaster of the school finds teaching 
that student a "less enjoyable task" professional? 
Is stating baldly that a student's arrogance means they are immune from the 
effects of educator bullying or cruel comments professional? 
If you think so, fine, your perogative but I disagree. 

>What "insults after insults"?!??!
Again, the absence of exclamation points may be the sticking point in making 
the insults clear but I will say once more that many people would consider 
needling a person about supposed their uselessness and cowardice are insulting. 
As is implying to a student that he is both stupid and very unpleasant to 
teach. 

>If what Snape said at that scene are consider "insults", then what 
>about Black then? Doesn't that made him also insulting Snape the 
>whole time then?
The whole time? 
The personal attacks started with Snape. (unless you want to extrapolate the 
"it's my house comment" made by Black into an attack on Snape's weath or lack 
of it). Uninvolved, useless, cowardly. Sirius shouldn't have given in to his 
anger and replied in kind but Snape wasn't innocent either.  

> Don't forget he was being extremely childlish to 
>called Snape "Snivellus" and "Lucius's Lapdog". 
>Did you remember that at all?  

"I assure you my memory is as good as it ever was." 

>Black does nothing!??!  He was the one who started it. 
Please give me an explicit citation as to how Sirius "started it." 
Did he start it by insisting that he be there while Snape spoke to Harry and 
reminding him that as the homeowner and the goodfather he had every right to 
be there? Did he start it by reminding Snape that he expected certain behaviour 
in his house and that Snape's usual behaviour towards Harry wouldn't be 
tollerated? 
Indeed, how dare he do such a thing. That SOB, not letting Snape be Snape. 

>He was also the one raising his voice first. He was also the one being 
aggressive 
>the whole time. He was the one who do childlish name calling. 
As opposed to Snape being "waspish", laying "delicate stress" on insulting 
words and the oft repeated sneering. 
Sirius Black shows his feelings loudly and obviously. It's almost certain 
that he's just the person Snape is thinking of when he speaks to Harry of "Fools 
who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their 
emotions, who wallow in sad memories, and allow themselves to be provoked this 
easily - weak people in other words." (US ed. pg 536)
He knows exactly how Sirius will react and he's goading him on. He's playing 
him like a pro, like a true Slytherin ought to, using his skill and subtly to 
turn Black's inability to control his temper against him.
Note how once each man had squared off againt each other Black was livid but 
Snape was calculating. 

>He was the one push his chair roughly and pull out his wand first
He pushes his chair aside roughly and strides around the table pulling out 
his wand as he goes; Snape whips out his own. Both men seem more than willing to 
draw down on each other and Snape was already ready 
"Snape, who, Harry noticed, had balled his fist in the pocket of his cloak 
over what Harry was sure was the handle of his wand," (pg 520)
Snape had insulted Harry and Harry's father and indicated that one couldn't 
give Harry a hard time since his imagined arrogance meant that he was immune to 
any cruelty or harshness. He didn't explicitly say that he intended to give 
Harry a hard time, in light of this belief, despire Black's warning not to, but 
he knew Black would take it that way. 

>he was the one pushing Harry. 
Yes pushing him from out between a potentially deadly confontation between 
two very dangerous wizards. That was sheer nerve on Harry's part to stay there 
and good on him. 

>On the other hand, Snape remain his coolness and being calm the whole 
>time, including after being called "Snivelllus" by Black

Is calling a person a coward, or excuse me "man who has been hiding in his 
mother's house for six months" coolness and calm? Is it the act of a man who 
wants to diffuse a tense situation? Is suggesting that going to the train station 
as Padfoot to see his Godson off, where he was unfortunately seen, was infact 
an effort to concoct a "cast-iron excuse not to leave (his) hidey-hole" is 
that a benign comment?
I don't think so, not any more than "Snivellus" or "Lucius' Lapdog" is. Both 
men ought to have know better but Snape was not an innocent actor. Far from 
it, he was doing a very skilled job of saying exactly the things that would make 
the situation worse. 

>who have a feeling that even if Snape did end up being nice to 
>Harry, these anti-Snape people could still find bunch of bad things 
>to say about it like how he's not nice enough or he didn't really 
>meant it or something

Once again, please leave me out of your "these anti-Snape people" 
generalisations. I prefer a little more nuance in my characters than which fosters terms 
like anti-Snape, anti-Sirius and the like.

-Stripedog 




























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