[HPforGrownups] OoTP: Voldemort and Death

Tue Jul 1 21:52:25 UTC 2003

No: HPFGUIDX 66569

Hey Steve!

Surely this all makes sense. I think some of your ideas are great. I just
wonder who must be sacrificed to get this message on.... I think the death
of Sirius will be one big theme in book six and the reason why he risked his
life so willingly while everybody wanted him to stay at headquarters. I
don't think it is only because he'd been locked up for so long at a place he
hated and that he is a person to act and not to wait and see. Remember in
Gof he answerd Harry's question why he came back with mentioning that he was
just fulfilling his godfather-duties.... I think the love of Padfoot's
towards Harry will again be alive in this book....

Yours Finchen
----- Original Message -----
From: "stephen6341" <sthimons at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 5:03 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoTP: Voldemort and Death

> OK, I've been kind of lurking here for a long time and thought I
> should finally post (I actually have something intelligent to add--
> maybe).  But first, just wanted to thank everyone here.  This list is
> great, and it has just fueled my love for Harry Potter.  Everyone
> here is ridiculously cool.
>
> S
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> P
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> O
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> I
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> L
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> E
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> R
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> S
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> P
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> A
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> E
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> OK then, on to my thoughts.  First, just like everyone else, I have
> not been able to keep up on everything here so if I'm repeating, I
> apologize.  Also, you guys know a lot more about all this stuff than
> I do, so please shoot holes in all this, I'm just going to babble a
> bit.
>
> Anyway, as I read the book and have been reading some of the messages
> I've had a bunch of thoughts.  First some real quick ones.
> Everyone's debated Harry's use of the Cruciatus Curse and DD's
> failings.  Personally, this is what gives the book it's flavor to me
> and is not a problem.  I love that Harry is not necessarily perfect
> and is put in a morally murky position and doesn't always choose what
> people view as the right thing.  And DD is not perfect.  And both of
> these two were not perfect and made mistakes because they
> loved...Harry loved Sirius enough to use the curse (and it was
> probably b/c the curse was made out of love that it wasn't that
> effective) and DD made his mistake b/c he loved Harry.  Those to me
> will always be forgivable mistakes b/c they are not driven by self-
> gain, but by intense emotions...exactly what DD says seperates HP
> from LV.
>
> OK, second quick point.  When Hermione mentioned you can't hurt a
> baby (with the baby DE), did anyone else think that has anything to
> do with why Harry wasn't harmed by LV when he was a baby?  I know
> it's a long shot and it probably has more to do with Lily's love for
> Harry, but just a thought.
>
> OK, last point and this is my major one (kind of realizing this
> should have been 2 posts now so I'll try to keep it short).  While I
> don't think anyone would argue that the overriding theme of these
> books is love (i.e., Lily's love saved Harry, Harry's heart is
> exactly what LV doesn't have), I think that needs to be expanded one
> more step.
>
> One of JKR's big things to me is death is not the worst thing in the
> world.  Already she has "killed" Harry's parents, Sirius, and
> Cedric.  The last few chapters had DD pointing out that LV's biggest
> fault is that he views death as the worst possible outcome.  I don't
> think LV and DD had a specific understanding of what would be worse
> than death when that whole conversation was going on.  I think DD
> knew that things like being without love, not having friends/family,
> etc were all a fate worse than death.  LV can't even begin to grasp
> this.  He doesn't realize if that he hadn't feared death so much, he
> would have never gone after Harry as a baby and then fallen out of
> power.  His fear of death in that instance led to his demise.
>
> Death to DD is not something to be feared b/c if you spend your life
> fearing death, you never live (e.g., LV).  And if you start looking
> back on some of the books you see this theme a bit.  In PS/SS, the
> guy (can't remember his name) gave up eternal life to have the stone
> destroyed and DD didn't seem very fazed by it.  In PoA, Harry spares
> Wormtail even though he clearly deserved to die.  In OoTP DD doesn't
> even contemplate killing the DE's he captures knowing full well they
> are likely to escape.  Also, in OoTP, when LV possessed Harry at the
> end what forced him out of Harry's body?  Was it Harry's love for
> Sirius?  Probably.  But even more so, it was Harry's lack of fear
> about death.  He wanted DD to kill him.  He knew his death wouldn't
> be the worst thing that can possibly happen and that LV's death would
> be worth his own death and that there is some life after death (he
> knew he would see Sirius).  That, in my mind, scared LV out of Harry.
>
> All of this is confirmed (again, at least to me!) in the end when
> Harry asks Nick those questions.  Nick tells him that he is weak and
> that's why he chose being a ghost.  That some wizards need to leave
> their imprint on the earth with former shells of themselves.  What he
> didn't say, but what I implied is that the brave wizards understand
> that they will live imprints on this earth with the memories of their
> actions after they are gone and there is no need to stick around to
> constantly remind people that they were once here.  Finally, when
> Luna mentions to Harry that she will see her mom again (the voices
> behind the veil) it also confirms that death is not the end (at least
> to JKR).
>
> Now, after all this, what does it mean for the rest of the series?
> Unfortunately I think it means more deaths, potentially many more.
> JKR is going to illustrate that the idea that valuing love,
> friendship, honor and compassion more than fearing death is what
> separates good from bad.  So, I fear there will be many sacrifices at
> the end to prove this point.  Of course, a lot of me hopes I'm wrong.
>
> Sorry to be so long winded, I would love to get other opinions and I
> hope this makes some sense.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
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