OOtp Spoilers Ahoy: Snape

[darrin_burnett]

No: HPFGUIDX 67099

> Why didn't D-Dore say, "Yes, well, Snape was furious with you after 
> > you barged into his Penseive and it hampered his ability to teach 
> > you"? 


Kai:  
> It's quite possible that Snape didn't tell Dumbledore about the
> Pensieve incident. The fact that Dumbledore *didn't* bring it up
> suggests to me that Snape kept mum on the subject. Otherwise, I think
> Dumbledore would have brought up the incident where Harry had
> trespassed into his own Pensieve. 

But Snape wasn't the only one who knew. Both Lupin and Sirius knew, and 
both were outraged that Snape was apparently going to cancel the lessons. 
So, failing to get through to Snape, it is logical that they would have gone to 
D-Dore. 

> Dumbledore knew from the start that Snape would find it difficult to
> give the lessons, all he may have needed from Snape was the admission,
> "Albus, I tried. But I simply can not teach Potter any longer. I just
> can't." Knowing Snape's history, Dumbledore may not have not felt that
> it was prudent (for Snape's emotional health) to push any further.    

Well, glad to know Snape's emotional health is more important than Harry 
keeping his mind free of V-Mort, giving away Order secrets, risking D-Dore's 
life, and Harry's sanity. 


 
> > That tells me D-Dore believes Snape should have kept at it, but his 
> > hatred of a man dead 16 years got in the way. 
> 
 
> Whatever it was that happened between Snape and James clearly scarred
> Snape deeply. We've gotten a glimpse at what that might have entailed,
> but we don't know everything that transpired. Regardless, there are
> plenty of real-life cases in which a victim might find it difficult or
> impossible to work with the perpetrator of the crime (i.e. rape, child
> abuse, assault) I guess don't see it as some huge personal failing on
> Snape's part that he can't get by what happened. Everyone has a limit
> and Dumbledore and Harry both found out where Snape's was, much to
> their detriment.

Fine, but this makes me even more skeptical when I read posts -- not 
necessarily yours -- about how Snape is laying his life on the line, risking it all 
to save Harry, doing more than any other Order member, etc., etc.

It was 20 years back. Snape, when he agreed to switch sides, knew he'd likely 
be dealing with people like Sirius, Lupin and James. 

It seems to me that Snape failed here, as did Harry by even going in there, but 
I keep coming back - as I always do with Snape and Harry's relations - to 
asking who the adult is and who should understand the importance of what is 
going on.



 
> > It was two-on-one. Granted, Snape might have felt four-on-one, but 
> > James and Sirius were the ones attacking him. And they weren't 
> > ganging-up on him so much as tag-teaming. Never do James and Sirius 
> > attack both at once.
> > Small comfort to Snape, I grant, but Lupin and Wormtail weren't part 
> > of the attack except not to stop it. And if you indict them, you have 
> > to indict everyone there who stood by and let it happen, which is 
> > everyone but Lily.
> 
> No, James and Sirius didn't simultaneously throw hexes at Snape, but
> the situation was still in their favor and they coordinated their
> attack on Snape. In my book, that makes it a 2-on-1 situation. 
> 
> Wormtail and Lupin were probably the only two people who had enough
> personal influence over Jamee and Sirius to get them to stop--and
> Lupin was a prefect! Lily appeared to have her own agenda in halting
> the abuse and that agenda didn't seem much based in Snape's safety,
> but more in her desire to take James down a peg or two. She abandon's
> Snape to his fate quite readily when he insults her.

Snape clearly said he didn't want her, didn't need her and to take her filthy 
blood away. 

And the "you're as bad as he is" indicates she had no love for Snape anyway.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying two-on-one is better than four-on-one. 
But I was trying to correct a misconception. 

> That all may well be true. However, it does not negate the fact that
> the event in question was likely a very deeply damaging one and may
> well have long lasting reprecussions for Snape, both socially and
> emotionally. It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye, and in
> this case, I'd say that Snape lost that metaphorical eye and he's not
> about to forgive James & Co. for it.

Snape has achieved a position of power, while his tormentors are, at the time 
of the Penseive scene, dead, on the run from the law, an outcast because of 
his nature and a betrayer of the others.

I agree that Snape might not be able to forgive, but he has outlasted and 
outlived the Marauders. And again, he has been given a position of trust by D-
Dore, which in this case, he failed to honor.

 
> I think that it's useful to remember that Snape, like Harry, has been
> Marked by Voldemort. There is no guarantee that the Dark Mark, like
> Harry's scar, isn't a "two-way device". Given the thin line between
> thoughts and intentions and the fact that Voldemort is a Legiliemans,
> saying "Voldemort" aloud might well attract Voldemort's attention in
> some way. Albus can say the name without fear because he's powerful --
> a magical equal to Voldemort. A spy like Snape and a
> powerful-but-largely-untaught 'pawn' like Harry would do well to avoid
> calling attention to themselves and their thoughts by saying
> Voldemort's name aloud, especially now that the two-way link is active
> again.

Snape is around the Order all the time and they use V-Mort. Dumbledore uses 
it.  And this doesn't quite explain calling him "the Dark Lord" instead of "he-
who-must-not-be-named." 

And again, Harry has faced and defeated Voldemort four times by this time 
and has been told by D-Dore to use the name. I resent Snape daring to 
suggest that Harry has to bow to his wishes of what to call the guy.

Harry has, as I said in an earlier post, earned the right to call Voldemort 
"Tommy-Boy" if he wishes, or "Lord Stinky of the Athlete's Foot."

 
> > Think of what bull-headedness it took to refuse to listen to the 
> > slightest possibility that Sirius might be innocent, especially since 
> > he more than anyone knew how tight Sirius and James were. How 
> > different it all would have turned out if Snape -- instead of 
> > dreaming about medals (apologies to Grey Wolf and his multitasking 
> > Snape, a theory which makes my head hurt) -- had listened to Harry, 
> > who after all, DID rescue the Stone and figure out where the Chamber 
> > of Secrets was.
> 
> Not to mention that: 1) Sirius was from a family who openly supported
> Voldemort--blood can be thicker than water. 2) Other wizards who knew
> the Potters and Sirius very well (i.e Dumbledore) believed that Sirius
> was the secret keeper and that he was responsible for the death of
> Pettigrew and the bystanders. 3) It's a pretty darned implausible
> story when you get right down to it! 4) The full moon was rising,
> Snape knew that Lupin had skipped his wolfsbane, that Black was at
> least capable of planning a murder, and Snape had three children whose
> safety was his responsibility. It's not like there was a lot of time
> for *anyone* to patiently listen to a convoluted story that defied
> conventional wisdom.

Good points, all.  BUT... again, Harry, whether Snape likes it or not, has 
shown a knack for getting things right, and Hermione is the brightest kid in 
school. And Snape certainly didn't appear to be bursting with logic in that 
scene.

But, there is an interesting point to be found in the wolfsbane.

Snape said he went to Lupin's office to give him the potion. Snape saw the 
map, saw everyone on it, and went to the Shrieking Shack.

What happened to the potion? Remember, Lupin doesn't change until the 
moonlight hits him, meaning he wasn't dangerous until he got outside. So, if 
Snape went there figuring he'd catch himself a werewolf, and an escaped 
prisoner, and be the great hero of the day by saving the three meddling kids, 
WHERE THE HELL WAS THE POTION???? 

Certainly Snape didn't "forget" (to use the technique of putting forget in quotes 
to imply sinister intentions) to bring the potion, knowing the full moon was 
coming, did he?

Wouldn't it have made more sense for Snape to bring the Potion, demand 
Lupin take it (at wandpoint, if needs be) and then capture Sirius.

Or... perhaps Snape certainly wouldn't have cared if Lupin changed, maybe 
killed a student and gotten what he deserves all along. Snape certainly feels 
the need to protect Harry, through his perceived debt to James (and the 
prophecy) but Ron and Hermione are expendable.

Because when Lupin checked over Snape after the kids knocked him out, if 
the Potion was on Snape, I have to believe he'd have taken it. (Unless Lupin 
IS evil, as Pip tells me.) :)


> > > _despite_ the fact he knows there's a werewolf out there 
> > who 'forgot' to  take his potion (not to mention dementors, which he 
> > probably knows lots more about than he likes). 
> > 
> > Yup, good thing Sirius was there to save him from the werewolf and 
> > Harry was there to save him from the dementors. Wonder if Snape 
> > thanked them?
> 
> Why would Snape have thanked them? After all, if they hadn't knocked
> him unconscious in the first place he wouldn't have needed 'saving'.

Snape apparently feels honor-bound to James, even though James' motives 
for saving him are certainly clouded by a desire to keep Sirius and Lupin out 
of trouble. 

Seriously, though, I was trying to point out that Sirius and Harry saved 
Snape's neck, because I think that is forgotten.


> > 
> > No credit here until I know for sure what he's all about. 
> 
> I can understand wanting to 'reserve judgement' on Snape's motives. If
> he turns out to be Evil (tm), then all the Good deeds he does may turn
> out to have been in service of an Evil Goal. 
> 
> However, in absence of evidence to the contrary, I think that it's
> worthwhile to at least acknowledge that not all Snape's actions are
> malevolent or have negative consequences or necessarily have Evil
> motives behind them. 
> 
> In that way, he's no different than Dumbledore, whose motives are
> *also* often shrouded in mystery, but who seems to catch a break more
> often than Snape in public opinion polls! :-)

Maybe because D-Dore doesn't seem to get off on tormenting students. I 
mean, it's all fine and good (in general, i don't mean to single you or anyone 
else out) to call Snape complex and multi-layered, until pests like me point out 
the nasty layers and what they could mean.

Darrin