PoA: an explanation of the time/patronus paradox

[sevenhundredandthirteen]

No: HPFGUIDX 67990

stlcole wrote:

> suppose that buckbeak gets axed and suppose that the 
> noise is something other than harry+hermione ducking into the 
> close .. further, suppose that harry+sirius are about to die at the 
> hands of the Dementors and, for the sake of arguement, Dumbledore 
> casts a patronus ..

Me:

Yes, that is the only other explanation. If you believe in mutil-
dimensional time travel then that is the only explanation that you 
can use- it all just has to be coincidentally the same. But why then 
does JKR include these facts which end up righting themselves as the 
book progresses??? H/R/H hear a thud of an axe and Hagrid howling- 
they assume it means that Beaky has gotten the chop. When H/H hear it 
from behind the trees they see Macnair swing his axe into the fence 
and it Hagrid howling- 'except this time they could hear what he was 
saying.' The text actually says that. To me that makes it very clear 
that JKR is intending a one planar time-travel. Had she had in mind 
multi-dimensional time-travel she would't have included these 
details. Whilst it is entirely possible that they could all have been 
coincidences, there was too many there to be coincidental for me. 

It's like the number of times Harry is under his invisibility cloak 
and Dumbledore's eyes flick towards him- for the sake of a point, who 
says it's not really just a coincidence that Dumbledore happens to 
look towrads where Harry stands and can't actually see under the 
cloak at all???

It's seems pretty rough to let Harry think that he actually saved the 
day, only to shoot him down in a few books' time saying- 'sorry 
Harry, you have been wrong all these years- you didn't actually see 
yourself across the lake, you didn't figure out that it was you all 
along, the reason you could cast that Patronus wasn't because you 
suddenly realised you already had- you're actually really stupid- it 
was me, Dumbledore, and I've been hiding this from you!!!'

Another point- if when Hermione goes back in time to do classes over, 
when she misses the class on cheering charms, why doesn't she just go 
back in time (if we're following the theory of multi-dimensions) to 
another dimension where she has yet to miss the class, and actually 
go to it??? If everytime she tips over he time-turner she's actually 
being transported to another dimension, then she must have been to 
thousands. Are you also suggesting that there was a Hermione 
placeholder sitting in all of her classes aswell, just as you are 
theorising that there was someone else (the Harry placeholder)who  
cast the Patronus the 'first time' and it wasn't Harry??

Logically, by following what you believe to the 'Person X' does this 
stuff, then Harry does, it also means that there has to be a 'Person 
X' going to all of Hermione's classes until she gets to them. And 
they must also look exactly the same as Hermione, as everyone who Ron 
asks about her timetable says that she's never missed any classes. 
So, please, if you want to theorise that it really is a Multi-
dimensional time-travel world (hey, I can be convinced- I believe in 
Mulit-dimensional time-travel here in our muggle world), please 
explain Hermione's class attendance aswell using the same argument 
which you've put forward for the actions at the lake.


I asked how we know that Dumbledore and Lupin can actually cast 
proper Patronuses.

stlcole responded:

> Come on .. Dumbledore certainly can produce a coporeal patronus. 
> Lupid, a DADA teacher and a werewolf, is highly likely to be able 
to 
> produce a coporeal patronus .. and i don't think it can be assumed 
> that 'silver stuff' will chase away dementors when it couldn't 
chase 
> away bogarts.

Well, sorry, but I'm still not convinced. As far as I'm aware (please 
correct me if I'm wrong) there is positively no  hard evidence 
supporting the fact that Dumbledore and Lupin can cast Corporeal 
Patronuses other than a feeling you have. Yes, Dumbledore is very 
powerful, but at this point in time all we've ever seen him do is 
shoot 'silver stuff' at them. Hermione didn't recognise any form of 
his Patronus. When Harry casts his (bad) Patronuses in his lessons, 
the fog he creates stops the Dementors from getting through. So, I 
think it's likely that a stronger form of this fog (not yet a 
complete Patronus, but strong enough to be classified as 'silver 
stuff') would stop the Dementors from coming in. Also, why does Lupin 
being a werewolf have aything to do with it??? Why does it suddenly 
make him more likely to be able to produce a Patronus??? There's a 
guy in St Mungo's in OoP who's a werewolf, is he suddenly going to be 
able to produce a proper patronus as well??? ;-) Lupin being a DADA 
teacher is better- but Lupin says that Patronuses are far beyond 
Harry's level. To me that's saying that they are not taught at 
school. Lupin says he's 'no expert' at fighting them. I daresay, if 
he could produce a corporeal Patronus that *would* make you an expert-
 as, what more can you do???? Whislt I would agree that both 
Dumbledore and Lupin are more likely to be able to produce proper 
Patronuses than, say, Professor Sprout and Mrs Weasley, the only 
evidence that we have is 'feelings' towards them as characters. 


I asked why would Dumbledore's Patronus be a unicorn:

stlcole wrote:
> Dumbledore's familiar is a phoenix .. so logically, his patronus 
> could be out of the same pantheon of magical creates, rather than a 
> stag or a dog or something rather muggleish.

If his familiar is a phoenix, logicaly I would think that his 
Patronus would also be a phoenix ;-) Much the same as people here 
often follow logically that his animagus form would be a phoenix . 
Another point- there's no evidence that Patronuses can even be 
magical creatures. There are only three we know- Harry- Stag, 
Hermione- Otter, and Cho- Swan. Notably, all are animals, and nothing 
fancy at that either. 

Okay, so I'm nitpicking, I admit it :-D. But all of your 'facts' 
require a great deal of assumptions, none of which are based on much 
more than abiguity and feelings.

And, finally, if you really think that Dumbledore (or anyone else for 
that matter) cast the Patronus across the lake, answer me these 
questions:

How did he suddenly look like James Potter??
Where was he the second time?
And who was the Hermione class placeholder who attended all of her 
classes whilst she was not in them???
Why did JKR include all the self-consistent details (the feet across 
the hall and the door slamming etc)???

If you follow time-travel in one plane all these answers are 
eliminated- The person looked like James because he was Harry, there 
was no 'second time'- time happened only once, Hermione was in all of 
her own classes, seeing as time occurs only once and JKR invluded all 
these details so that the second time you read the book everything 
falls into place.

Hopefully this post will help you fine tune your theory (like I said, 
I can be convinced :-D) so that it won't be so easily shot down.

~<(Laurasia)>~