Snape & Harry

[innermurk]

No: HPFGUIDX 68378

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James" <ebren at h...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford"
> <valkyrievixen at y...> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Santangelo 
> > <owlery2003 at y...> wrote:
> > > Wow - there is a huge divergence of opinion on this topic.
> 
> Certainly is
> 
>  One 
> > thing I'd like to point out (probably already has been - sorry!) 
is 
> > that Snape brings his professional behavior down to student level 
> > (juvenile grudge) and has a significant knowledge base, whereas 
Harry 
> > comes into the story at the ignorant, clueless student level. 
Snape 
> > has the luxury of berating, belittling, punishing and generally 
> > tormenting Harry from his position as teacher. Harry can only 
build 
> > up a thick skin and bear it - who wouldn't grow resentful and 
> > defiant? 
> > > 
> > > Naturally, I'm "blaming" Snape, not just because I think that's 
the 
> > way it's written (tons of canon fodder), but because he went to 
> > Hogwarts with an eager expectation and real thrill, only to 
confront 
> > the unfamiliar political realities of the WW and his own 
mysterious 
> > past. Snape never gave him a chance and dumped on him from day 1! 

Absolutely right. He never gave Harry a chance to see where he was 
before he started dumping on him. And he did it vindictively. Harry 
has often shown more restraint and maturity than Snape has. In my 
mind that's just wrong. Snape is the adult. Harry is the child. It's 
no wonder Harry does not respect him, and dislikes him.
Respect has to be earned, never forced.
 
James wrote:
> I think the key to this point is what Harry means to the adults he
> interacts with.
> 
> Harry - and this is made blindingly obvious (so I am probalbly
> treading on toes here) - is the spitting image of his father.   Add 
to
> this the hero-worship he holds his father in (until the pensive), as
> witnessed by the reaction to, amongst others, his aunt when she has 
a
> go at his parents.  And throw in (and I cannot overstate this) the
> fact his father is not there.

Too right he did! He *needed* a role model to look up to. He was put 
down in so many ways from the very day that he arrived at Privet 
Drive. The fact that he didn't know his father just added fuel to the 
fire. He could be perfectionized in his head. No one knew the lengths 
to which Harry relied on thoughts of his father to get through 
things, and if they did, would you really want to take away one of 
Harry's strengths? He has soooo much to deal with, he needs something 
in his life to rely on!
Snape never cared about that though, just as he never cared that 
Harry was NOT James. He literally hates the boy, and I don't think 
that Harry's actions had much to do with it. He made up his mind 
before Harry ever came that he would hate him.

James continues: 
> Snape was victimised by James and Sirius.  He carries (like many of 
us
> - ok maybe just me) a resentment towards his school tormentors, and
> who walks into his classroom.  Harry.
> 
> Now he cannot criticise James as he is dead.  In walks this kid,
> highly regarded by his boss, who imidiately makes the house 
Quiddicth
> team.

Yes, he makes the team, however, that was WAY after he'd already 
started abusing his power and Harry.

James continues:
> When at school Snape was the powerless squit, and James the all
> conquoring hero.  Now he has the power.

Yes, and he's using it to torment an innocent party. Harry had 
nothing to do with any of his father's actions. Even worse, he never 
knew his father, so it's not like his attitudes towards Snape were 
passed down in ever-so-humerous bedtime stories. Snape is taking out 
a grudge on someone *solely* because they are related to his 
tormentor. AND because he can. He teases and tries to hurt Lupin and 
Sirius, but not to the extent that he does Harry, because Harry is 
the one under his power. Evil git. Sirius played as much of a role in 
the pranking as James, yet since he is most assuredly NOT under 
Snapes thumb, he reduces himself to merely sneering and taunting 
Sirius. Notice that even in Sirius' house with his former tormentor 
before him, he tries to lord over Harry and puts him down, taking it 
out on Harry, because he's too cowardly to do so to Sirius.

James continues:
> He ses James in Harry.  He transfers his resentment of an 
unassailble
> character (James) who died heroically and is beyond reporoach on the
> image of the man he hated.

I don't think that affects the circumstances at all. The fact is that 
he *does* reproach James. He's always putting him down in front of 
Harry.

James continues:
> Harry basically needs to tell Snape he is his mother's son as well.
> And that he is not his father.
> 
> Snape knows deep down Harry is not James - and saves him as early 
PS.

Does he really? I don't think he does. He tries to save him yes, but 
his motives have never been fully explained yet. And again, Hermione 
does more to save Harry than Snape did. I have yet to see an argument 
that convinces me Snape was really trying to help Harry to the best 
of his abilities. He was merely trying to help Dumbledore, and Harry 
kept getting involved, IMO.

James continues: 
> But every time he looks at this embatled youth he sees his tormentor
> (litterally) and cannot get over this.
> 
> In the words of Isaac Asimov 'never underestimate the human ability
> for petty, self distructive behaviour.'
> 
> As Harry said his father is every bit as arrogant as Snape thinks 
and
> treats him as.
> 
> Classic transference, and the sort of deep plotting and
> charicterisation that makes the series so re-readable.
> 
> Not apologising for Snape - understanding his humanity.

True that Snape does give Harry the antagonism needed. But that 
doesn't mean I have to like him :)
I still think that he deserves to be in Umbridges detentions getting 
HIS greasy hand carved for bullying, favoring his house, abusing his 
power, intimidating instead of teaching, putting his own agendas 
before DD's on his assignments, and just being generally an overall 
evil slimy unlikeable git that walks through life with blinders on 
and a HUGE poor me complex that outstrips any teenager I've ever 
known.
The truth is that EVERYONE has drama in their life when they're 
teenagers. Everyone gets picked on, and everyone lives and endures, 
and hopefully grows up.
Snape is stuck in his teenage years thinking that everyone is picking 
on him. He's just plain paranoid. And if that were all, he'd still be 
ok, but he uses that paranoia to lash out at everyone around him, oh, 
except the Slytherins, and yes, the Death Eaters. Oh, yeah, and 
Umbridge. 
With friends like that who needs enemies?

Innermurk