[HPforGrownups] Re: Truth and Justice - Truth Serum NOT!!!

[Robert A. Rosenberg]

No: HPFGUIDX 68596

At 05:13 +0000 on 07/06/2003, jsmithqwert wrote about [HPforGrownups] 
Re: Truth and Justice in the Wizard World:

>--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Robert A. Rosenberg"
><rarpsl at o...> wrote:
>>Early on in OotP there is a scene where we are shown what purports 
>>to be a typical Wizard Trial. Ignoring the fact that it seemed to 
>>be portrayed as a cross between a Star Chamber Hearing and a 
>>Kangaroo Court, the way the trial was held was odd given that it 
>>was supposed to be a Wizard not a Muggle Court. I refer to the use 
>>of unsupported testimony when there is a much simpler and reliable 
>>way of learning the truth.
>[rest of my quote snipped - Please see original for snipped sections 
>referenced in my reply below]
>
>I believe that it is generally agreed that Veritaserum does not 
>promise the absolute truth, but rather the witnesses own personal 
>truth. Much like a polygraph (lie detector) it can be fooled by 
>someone who believes their own accout to be true even if it is 
>false. Secondly, Dumbledore refers to the Wizengamot Charter of 
>Rights, which probably explicitly states a power against self- 
>incrimination,

IOW: The equivalent of the US Fifth Amendment against forced 
incrimination/testimony. Just like waving your right to "Take the 
Fifth", I would expect a right to request to give your testimony 
under Veritaserum (with adequate protection against "Fishing 
Expeditions").

The use of Bujold's "Fast Penta" has similar safe guards - You must 
agree to its use unless you are charged with a crime [and the 
questioning is part of the crime investigation] and there are rules 
on what types of questions the inquisitor can ask.

The use of the Piper "Verifier" has similar restrictions (Voluntary 
use outside of the Court can be under a restricted set of topics that 
can be questioned about and its use in court only indicates if you 
are telling the truth [and it DOES spot self deception] but there is 
no coercion to tell the truth except to getting red-lighted when you 
lie.

>etc. . . Finnaly, magic in the WW does not always follow clear and 
>evident rules. Perhaps Veritaserum doesn't work on people with curly 
>red hair. Maybe on blue moons its effect is diminished. With any 
>doubt remaining, its use in a court situation would be unacceptable.

Since, as I noted in my message, there is no evidence of any drawback 
to relying on Veritaserum to cause/force the subject to tell the 
truth, all of this "it may not work" is speculative.

OTOH: I can see the Court offering Harry the change to take 
Veritaserum so he can be questioned and DD turning the offer down due 
to a mistrust (which I would say is NOT mistaken) in the Court's 
intent/ability to follow the rules for Veritaserum assisted/induced 
testimony.



At 05:14 +0000 on 07/06/2003, Steve wrote about [HPforGrownups] Re: 
Truth and Justice - Truth Serum NOT!!!:

>--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Robert A. Rosenberg"
><rarpsl at o...> wrote:
>>  ... in OotP there is a scene ... a typical Wizard Trial. ... it
>>  seemed to be portrayed as a cross between a Star Chamber Hearing and
>>  a Kangaroo Court, ... the trial was ... odd given that it was ... a
>>  Wizard not a Muggle Court. I refer to the use of unsupported
>>  testimony ... there is a much simpler ... way of learning
>>  the truth.
>>
>>  ...edited...
>>
>>  Why is the Truth Potion either not used during the trial or at least
>>  offered as a way of short-circuiting the proceedings so that the
>>  defendant can testify as to the truth of their defence?
>>
>>  Robert
>
>bboy_mn:
>
>This was just cover a day or two ago but I'll cover it again anyway.
>
>They answer to your question lies in my question which is 'Why don't
>we used truth serum or lie detectors in our muggle courts?'.

As you note above, they are not 100% accurate. This does not mean 
that Veritaserum is not 100% accurate.

OTOH, Lie Detectors ARE used in investigations and the results can be 
introduced in court (at least by the defence).

>
>Well, that's the reason they don't use them in wizard's courts. They
>are a violation of the defendants rights.

Which can be waved (as in not availing yourself of your Fifth 
Amendment right to not testify or incriminate yourself).

>It is up to the court to prove you guilty, and not up to you to 
>prove you are innocent,

Unless you are on trial in Louisiana (if I remember correctly) or 
France (as well as other Napoleonic Legal Code Areas) where you are 
presumed to be Guilty and must present evidence of your innocence.

>or at least that is the theoretical principle behind democratic 
>justice. The wizard world does have a Wizards Chart or Rights, so 
>they do recognise that defendants have rights, and can not be 
>compelled to give testimony against themselves.

There is a difference between being involuntarily given Veritaserum 
and being allowed to take it so as to present evidence of your 
innocence. You are equating the former with the latter.

>
>Truth serum and lie detectors are flawed my many way, only one of
>which is that if the defendant believe what he is saying then he will
>consider it truth. May people believe that space alien routinely visit
>our planet, they believe it will all their heart, and that belief
>would be reflected in truth serum and lie detectors.
>
>Regardless of whether he did it or not, if Harry was delusional, and
>truly and genuine believe he had fought Dementors, then to him it
>would be truth.
>
>Truth serum is not the answer to everything. It's flawed because,
>believe it or not, truth is a matter of opinion.

Which is only speculation since there is no proof (one way or the 
other) of how effective Veritaserum is when given to someone who is 
Delusional. The only indication is that DD and Umbridge both seem to 
rely on it to cause/force the subject to tell the truth. There are no 
indications that there are counter measures that would prevent its 
use or cause the subject to give inaccurate info under its influence. 
Otherwise, LV would have made sure that the fake professor was 
Veritaserum-Proofed and/or was spelled to give false information if 
it was used.

>
>As far as the trial or so called hearing itself, and through out the 
>entire book, it is clear that Fudge and Umbridge are illegally 
>subverting the process of justice to met their own ends.

That is a SEPARATE issue and would thus justify Harry and/or DD 
accepting an offer to give testimony under the influence of 
Veritaserum  (since the court has shown that it would not observe the 
rules for taking such testimony).


--

Bob Rosenberg