OOP: what we forget with Sirus and James and Harry /Xmas Decoration in Blacks'

[Koticzka]

No: HPFGUIDX 68621

Sorry if you felt attacked by my severe comment, Marina! I meant no personal
offense and I regret that my message might have been interpreted in that
way. And now that I think about it, I admit that it might have been coming
on too strong.

I wrote:
>> Running away from a family toward a friend's home where willing parental
figures are waiting to welcome you, and being rejected or abandoned (as
Snape seems to be) are two totally different things. Sirius made his choice.
Snape was not given one.<<

Then Marina answered:
>>On what information are you basing this claim?  All we know of Snape's
childhood upbringing is a single glimpse of a man yelling at a woman while a
child cries in the background.  We don't know who *any* of these people are,
though it's reasonable to assume they're Snape and his parents.  It's not a
pleasant scene, but it tells us nothing about what other relatives or
friends Snape had, or what choices he has been presented with.<<

*****Koticzka's clarification:
What I meant was that Snape was rejected by students, colleagues, not by his
family, who we know nothing about. I do not find the fact that Snape
remembers his parents' argument evidence of a bad relationship between the
Snapes. And there is no proof, only an indication in JKR's description, of
Snape's possible loneliness at Hogwarts.

Anyway, Sirius was apparently popular and still had contact with his family,
even though they were not very close. He had chosen to leave the family,
staying with friends for most of the year. We can only guess why he did in
fact run away, but I am going to concentrate on S.S. vs. S.B., not on the
reasons themselves.

Marina again:
>>Phineas is not Sirius' grandfather; he's his great-great-grandfather, or
Sirius knows him only as a portrait, nor does he seem to like him much.
Whatever caring Phineas might've felt for Sirius, he apparently didn't
choose to show it until after Sirius was dead.  Sirius' uncle did leave him
money, and Sirius does seem fond of his cousin Andromeda and of Tonks.  But
we have no idea what uncles, cousins, friends or great-great-grandparents
Snape might've been endowed with.<<

***Koticzka:
I am aware that Phineas was his great great grandfather, this is revenge for
my laziness.  After consideration, I admit that the difference between
abandoning or rejecting someone (as Sirius's mother did) and harsh criticism
might be not visible. I'm not sure that I could recognize it myself,
especially when I was 16.

I wrote:
>> Then again, there is a slight difference between seeing a person as a
nice person and as a person who is justified in his actions. When one is
hurt and humiliated very, very deeply, do not expect that person to be kind
and noble, especially in everyday living, or you risk being called NAIVE.<<

Marina answered:
>>Well, I may have excpected a number of silly things in my life, but I've
certainly never expected Snape to be kind or noble. Principled, loyal to
Dumbledore, and occasionally heroic, yes.  But never kind or noble.<<

****Koticzka's comment:
I know I wrote the line above but I actually find some of Snape's actions in
previous books to be noble.  It was certainly not noble to attack James from
behind, nor was it noble for two Marauders to attack one (I am not adding
poor, sweet, or lovely this time!!!!;-) )  Snape.   No, he is not kind. Or
we do not see him being kind, though he might be to his Slyths (when talking
to Draco?).

I wrote, bitterly:
>> No, neither age nor sex matters, Marina. Sorry to say that, I wish the
world was different myself.<<

Marina wrote, angrily (?):
>>Huh?  What does that have to with anything I said?  I'm not particularly
concerned with eithr the age or the sex of any of the characters involved,
except for a general understanding that people often behave like total jerks
when they're fifteen, yet still grow up into decent human beings.  My point
was we've only seen one small, carefully selected sample of James' behavior,
in an instance when he obviously wasn't being his best.  We can't judge his
entire character for the rest of his (admittedly short) life based on this
one sample.  It would be like judging all of Snape's character based on a
single instance when he was behaving in a particularly horrid manner.<<

***Koticzka's explanation:
Age and sex were added on my part to precede additional comments (I did a
lousy job of shortening my train of thought).

Leaving the sex on the side, I will add my three knuts to the age matter: I
would like to see people growing up. And perhaps I am unlucky to be mostly
surrounded by people who are adult but not mature. And I am not defending
women here, but I am find men behaving like boys particularly often. I will
skip my usual boring lecture on the physiology, hormones, and roles in the
society (it comes on request only!) which are used to prove the opinion I
hold.

But whether the boys were teenagers or adults, their animosity would stay
the same. We had proof from Sirius's carelessness in the kitchen (that is
the beginning of the  Occlumancy chapter, I believe) when he allowed Snape
to provoke him. Gosh, wouldn't you rather laugh at your visitor and treat
him as a pitiful git? Sirius doesn't. Why? Due to some potion he was given
without his conscience? Or due to his male nature? Too proud and feeling
abandoned (again?...), he might have become too sensitive, too.

Or was he all the time? Wasn't it Snape who could control himself in this
situation? Didn't Sirius provoke Snape by commenting on Snape's first words
to Potter? So who is kind, who is noble? And who is mature?

We were given a sample of James's behaviour. Noting that it is only a
sample, and remembering Lilly and James's conversation, and Remus
and Sirius's clarifications while asked by Harry about the incident, I
should add nothing more. Dumbledore's opinion (perhaps based on much poorer
information than we have now) confirms that it was not one, selected
incident but just the worst one (probably the worst for Snape, but who knows
the truth?)

Let me finish with the sentence said by one of the Marauders (Remus or
Sirius) to Harry - sorry for not being able to quote it and point to the
book:
"You can know someone by how he treats his inferiors, not his equals"

And... not connected strictly with the subject, but I guess you might agree:
How did you like the beards and Santa Claus hats on heads of dead house
elves with which Sirius decorated his house?

Koticzka
How can you hurt a man who has nothing?
Give him something broken.



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