[HPforGrownups] Re: OOP- Prophesy - Paradox or foreshadowing?

[Robert A. Rosenberg]

No: HPFGUIDX 68737

At 16:49 +0100 06/23/2003, Beth Currie wrote about Re: 
[HPforGrownups] Re: OOP- Prophesy - Paradox or foreshad:
>>From: medeacallous [mailto:medeacallous at yahoo.ca]
>>Sent: 23 June 2003 16:38
>>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP- Prophesy - Paradox or foreshadowing?
>>
>>Ok, correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding of the prophesy:
>>
>>It seems to me that one of two things is true of the prophesy -
>>either it is a paradox, or a foreshadowing of something that JKR
>>hasn't even touched on.
>>
>>Here's the thing:  If the 'unknown powers' that the prophesy speaks
>>of in Harry are a result of Lily's sacrifice, or of the transfer of
>>power that came as a result of Voldemort's attempt to kill him, then
>>it's a total paradox, because if the prophesy had never been made,
>>or even never partially overheard, Voldemort would have never taken
>>the step to identify Harry and Neville, choose between the two of
>>them, and go after Harry.  In which case, Harry would have grown up
>>without the protection of Lily's sacrifice, without the 'mark', and
>>without the powers transferred to him at the moment of Voldemort's
>>rebounded curse.
>>
>>So... is there something about Harry, some power, that derives
>>neither from Lily's sacrifice nor Voldemort's murder attempt?
>>
>>Any ideas?
>>
>MC
>
>
>
>I don't see a problem with this particular paradox.

There is no reason for it to be considered a paradox. LV has reason 
to go after James and Lily even without knowledge of (or even the 
existence of) the prophesy. They are not some random couple but 
Powerful Wizards who have opposed and beaten him 3 times already. 
Since they are already on his "Must Kill 'To Do'" list, all the 
prophesy does is say that when he does get around to killing them, he 
will set in motion the Harry vs. LV confrontation. It is only a 
paradox if J&L had no interaction with LV and only came to his 
attention due to the prophesy.

>It's nothing compared to the one in PoA where Harry conjures the 
>Patronus. If Time-Travelling Harry (let's call him TTH) hadn't 
>conjured the Patronus, "original" Harry would have died. Which of 
>course means that there would have been no TTH there to conjure 
>it...it's a chicken and egg situation.
>
>Beth

Time Travel always causes problems with determining cause and effect. 
Depending on how you define the "Rules of the Universe" in regards to 
the effect of time traveling, you get different scenarios. Once you 
toss prophecy into the mix, you get some interesting cause and effect 
situations. Given that Harry has a destiny to have a final battle 
with LV in Book 7, he must live until that battle. Thus any time he 
is put into a situation where he can die or loose that powers needed 
for that confrontation he will survive unharmed. Since he must 
survive his encounter with the Dementors (and can not defend himself 
when confronted with them by conjuring his Patronus) something-else 
must intervene to save him. This allows the Time Travel to occur and 
what seems (if you do not look at the big picture) to be a Paradox. 
There is no paradox involved since he WILL (per the prophecy) survive 
unharmed his encounter with the Dementors. The fact that he uses via 
Time Travel to allow doing the Patronus Spell from a distance, is a 
non-issue and can not be seen as a Paradox.

You have to look at it from the viewpoint of results this way.

    1) He survives his encounter after being unable to defend himself. 
This is a given since it is only Book 4 and he has not yet defeated 
LV.

    2) Having survived, he can make use of the Time Turner to go back 
to the time of the encounter and save himself by using the Spell his 
being in the presence of the Dementors prevented him from using.

IOW: The cause of it not yet being his time to die or be disabled 
triggers the effect of his using Time Travel to allow him to cast the 
Patronus Spell from a distance since he is not yet able to cast it in 
the physical presence (and under the influence) of the Dementors.


At 15:49 +0000 on 06/23/2003, nathan andersen wrote about Re: 
[HPforGrownups] Re: OOP- Prophesy - Paradox or foreshad:

>The second type of prophecy, the one we have here, is what is called a
>conditional prophecy which can only come true if someone actively sets out
>to make the prophecy true or if the right person hears the prophecy and sets
>things in motion.


This reminds me of a discussion I once had which was triggered by an 
"Evil Overlord" list of rules of behavior (basically a list of all 
the dumb things Villains do in stories enumerated in the form of 
"Don't Do THIS").

The rule on the list that triggered my comment was the classic 
prophecy of the birth (pending birth) of someone who is going to grow 
up and oppose/kill you 20 or more years hence. This always leads to 
an attempt to kill the baby (which always fails, usually leads to 
them having a mission in life to get revenge, etc.). The 
Harry/Neville vs. LV one is a classic case of this type of prophecy.

My view was that you should locate the kid and protect him. So long 
as he is alive, you know you are protected for those 20 years and you 
can always cut a deal with him when the time comes to fake your death 
(so you can retire - After 20 years, you might want a change of job 
function or something). I felt that this was consistent with the 
other Rules where were phrased tongue-in-cheek and were pointed 
critiques as the usual plots used in that type of story (if not a 
pointed gag at a specific book/movie).


--

Bob Rosenberg