[HPforGrownups] Snape as a kid; Snape's dimensions; the legacy of Sirius

[Kelly Grosskreutz]

No: HPFGUIDX 69500

Darrin wrote:

> Harry's sympathy for Snape in OoP is a major turning point for his
character. I
> also see his "I blame Snape" as pure denial, which will cave in soon
enough.
>
> But I STILL do not see where Snape's attitude toward Harry has changed
> much. His motivations may have changed, and I agree he is a mysterious
> character, but I don't see Snape as growing in the slightest. We can
speculate
> all we want on his comments on Aunt Marge's dog, but it is still not clear
> whether he was sympathetic or gleeful about what he saw.
>
> I keep coming back to him being unable to teach, unable to function in his
> JOB, because of his hate for this kid's father.
>
As always, you make really good points.  I agree Harry is in denial, so it
is easier to project his negative feelings onto Snape, a man he has never
liked anyway.  An added bonus here is that he knows Snape hated Sirius as
well.  I also agree that his feelings for Harry are affecting his teaching.
We especially see this in the Occlumency lessons.  I am somewhat concerned
about Harry's blaming Snape, though.

I was talking to my mother the other day, and a story she was telling me
made me think of this.  When she was a kid, her cat was killed.  It had
crawled up under the hood of her brother's car, and he didn't know it was
there when he went to start the car.  My mom knows he did not mean to kill
the cat, and that he felt really bad about it, but she says to this day she
still holds it against her brother.

I am afraid some of this might carry over to Harry's character.  Eventually,
I do believe he will have to accept the responsibility that he bears in
Sirius's death.  But I still wonder if some of these feelings will always
remain and make any potential relationship with Snape more difficult.
Granted, it could never be as bad as what Snape has against Harry, and Harry
will have the easier of the time of the two getting over it.

> To sum up, Snape's hate is getting really old.
>
I think we've been bashed over the head about this for five books because
something is going to change.  I don't know if it's some kind of
rapprochement as the two are forced to work together on other things, or if
Snape will go to the Dark Side, or whatever else may happen, but I think the
dynamic between Snape and Harry will begin to change now.  We've known for
books that Snape hates Harry and James.  This last book, we were shown a
little more why he does, and what's more, Harry knows this as well.  Snape
has also seen evidence that Harry has not had the easiest life and that he
is not necessarily James.  I'm waiting to see in book 6 if either act on
this, now that they're going to have a little time away from each other (or
so we can speculate, it being summer holidays).

> I am hampered by not having the book with me, but, as I recall, in the
broom
> scene in Snape's head, there was a girl laughing at a scrawny boy who was
> having difficulties mounting the broom.
>
> If we assume the kid cowering in the corner is Snape, then it's likely the
kid on
> the broom was Snape.  So, how in the world did that get interpreted as
Snape
> doing a tricky counter-curse jinx???
>
He was the only male in the broom scene, so I would also surmise it is him.

> Which, by the way, wasn't all that successful in SS/PS, so I don't see how
we
> can say he was a master at it.
>
Based strictly on SS/PS, I'd say it was more successful than you might
think.  If Quirrelmort's curse had worked properly, Harry would have been
off that broom in about five seconds or so.  Snape starts muttering a
counter-curse.  The broom/curse is not able to automatically flip Harry off.
Harry is at least able to maintain his grip on the broom, albeit with great
difficulty.  We also have to keep in mind that Quirrel might have had a
little magical power booster in Voldemort, which would make Quirrell at
least a little more powerful than Snape, hence, his curse was slightly more
effective than the counter-curse, but the counter-curse was at least giving
Harry some chance of keeping hold of the broom.  Most notably, though, is
when Hermione goes to stop Snape.  On her way to him, she knocks over
Quirrell.  Quirrell is no longer able to keep cursing Harry, giving Snape
the extra seconds in which to utter one last counter-curse to stop Harry's
broom from bucking.  Harry now has control of the broom and is able to
resume playing.

> And I'm amused by all the rush of "No, he wasn't using AK to kill the
flies!"
>
> Sheesh, is it so hard to believe this guy was neck-deep in the Dark Arts?
>
No, considering he came into Hogwarts knowing more about the Dark Arts than
a lot of the seventh years.  This scene actually seemed to confirm what
Sirius said for me.  Granted, JK never comes right out and says, "The
teenaged boy was AK'ing the flies," nor is there a mention of green light,
but I do believe that's what he was doing.  These flashback scenes seem
engineered to make us feel some sympathy for and gain a little understanding
into Snape.  The other scenes we were shown, whether legitimately or not,
show Snape being humiliated and/or helpless.  They are not happy scenes.  To
me, in some ways, Snape alone in his room shooting down flies is the saddest
of these scenes.  We don't know exactly how old he is, but it shows he is in
a terrible state for such a young age.

I especially think of what Bellatrix said about how one produces an
Unforgivable.  One really has to mean them.  I saw a great post earlier
today that talked about how the person truly had to want to cause pain, to
rip the life out of something, etc.  This is similar to my view on the
Unforgivables.  It shows that Snape, at a very young age, had so much hatred
and anger in him (may I also venture he was in that much pain) that he could
easily see someone dead.  I can imagine him attaching names to every one of
those flies and pretending the individual fly was that person.  To me, this
is both a heartbreaking and a terrifying scene.  He is in that much pain,
but yet he is already that dark.  I guess that's one reason I do find him
complex, in answer to an earlier question/point of yours, Darrin.

 > He was a card-carrying DE. At some point, this guy was aligned with evil,
> likely committing evil and wallowing in evil and to his credit, he got out
of it
> (allegedly.)
>
> Now, for what Harry will inherit from Sirius. I can't believe I haven't
seen this
> yet.
>
> How about that motorbike?

He can't Apparate until he's seventeen, and he's discovered that traveling
by broom isn't all its cracked up to be going over long distances.  I think
he'd enjoy getting the bike, not to mention that this thing was mentioned
quite a bit in the first two chapters of SS/PS and has since been completely
forgotten about.

Kelly Grosskreutz
http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova