Whose Man Snape?

Sat Jul 12 21:07:26 UTC 2003

No: HPFGUIDX 69766

Deranimer: 

> 
> Darrin, who is a lousy smoocher, wrote:

Sheesh, give a guy a chance, why don't you?

>> V-Mort is an arrogant sort. He might not have felt it was 
>necessary to double-check the thing -- but let's assume for a minute 
that it IS someone important and that someone is Snape.
> 
> <Derannimer assumes a patronizing sort of expression.>
> 
> But. . . but *Darrin,* dear sweet *corn-fed* Darrin [1] , that is 
just such a profound *Dud* of an explanation. Double-check? *Double-
check*? C'mon. We've been told about a mysterious *eavesdropper,* 
it's gotta mean *something.* And really, who else would it be but 
Snape? His past just *has* to have something to do with the Potter's. 
> It just has to.

Anyway, I agree Snape would be interesting, for the reasons you 
expressed. I did point out it could have been Lupin, and I'm sure it 
could have been others.

I don't know when or if we're going to reach critical mass of 
characters. I found myself mildly surprised to see someone as 
interesting and screamingly IMPORTANT as Luna Lovegood introduced in 
OoP. 

So, at one point, I thought we were essentially done with the major 
players and we had to pick and choose from there. Now, I'm not so 
sure.

That would drive me barking, though, if some new character introduced 
in Book 6 or even Book 7 was the eavesdropper.

> You know, in my previous post I mentioned that I hoped Snape *had* 
been using AK 
> on the flies? I'm also hoping that he really did do *horrible* 
things when he was a DE. 
> You wanna know why?
> 
> <To judge from the expression on Darrin's face, possibly not, but 
Derannimer continues anyway.>

Oh, carry on. My reputation as a Snape-hater is vastly overrated. I 
am actually capable, contrary to ever-growing belief, of hearing both 
sides.

><snip Elkins>

> You see, I really *don't* want Snape to have been a cut above the 
others. I want him to have been as Dark as any of them, or preferably 
Darker. Not so much for the more general thematic concerns that 
Elkins raises in that post, but for the specific concerns 
> of Snape's own character arc. I mean, if he was never all that bad, 
what's so interesting about his defection? You don't get as much 
guilt, you don't get as much angst, you don't get as Big and Bangy of 
a catalyst when he switches sides, you don't  get as much temptation 
for him to switch sides again, you don't get as much of that 
> division between, in Elkins' wording, his instincts and his 
intellect, you don't get as much pain when Rosier is killed. . . I 
mean, man. Snape as Ever So Dark is just *so* 
> much more *interesting.* I've never quite understood the Snapefans 
who *don't* want him to have been all that bad.

Oh, I totally agree with this concept, which is why, if there is a 
major turn in the other direction in the future -- someone we thought 
was good going bad -- I want it to be a doozy. A Lupin or a 
McGonagall, for instance.

But yeah, if Snape is truly Reformed or Redeemed or whatever the 
proper term is, it is much more powerful if he was damned evil to 
begin with. 

How I'd put it to Snape fans who don't want him to have been evil is 
this: If you want him to be respected, even loved, for his 
redemption, make the journey to get there as long as possible.

> Darrin, however, took issue with which particular baby Snape sold 
out.

Not so much an issue as an illustration that I'm not single-minded 
when it comes to Snape. :) 

> > OK, throwing a bone. I posted a theory right after OoP came out 
that  Snape was actually the one sent to snuff out Neville and he did 
it a few weeks or so before V-Mort went to the Potters. (Say, because 
V-Mort didn't actually get to the Potters before Sirius made Peter 
the secret-keeper)
>  

> Eh. There's a timing problem, though, isn't there? Granted, there 
>isn't any canonical confirmation as to when Snape switched sides, 
>but most people tend to put it at a lot  earlier than a few weeks 
>before Godric's Hollow. 

Oh, not necessarily, although it requires exluding Occlumency for the 
moment (more on that in a bit). 

OK, say someone (Snape if you like, but someone) has overhead the 
prophecy and V-Mort begins figuring out who it applies to. He hits 
upon Neville first, because the Longbottoms were seriously butt-
kickingly Aurors, and dispatches Snape to do it.

Why? Because perhaps Snape is his most trusted DE. 

Enter Snape and his change of heart. He goes to Dumbledore and 
says, "The Potters are next."

D-Dore warns the Potters and (presumably) the Longbottoms, in case V-
Mort makes another try. Enter the Secret-Keeper stuff.

V-Mort can't touch the Potters until Wormtail is made secret keeper, 
so there is a gap there. By this time, Snape's treachery has been 
made known to him and he doesn't trust any of the other yahoos to do 
it.

 > There is actually some canonical suggestion for this now: 
Occlumency. Many people have assumed that Dumbledore taught it to 
Snape, and that Dumbledore did so specifically for the purposes of 
Snape's spying job. I think it would probably take 
> longer than a few weeks to learn how to do it so well that you 
could go spy on Voldemort without getting killed. Although I suppose 
Snape could have learned it at some prior point in his life; but I'm 
not sure when that would have been, or why.

Well, it's not a bad assumption. A good one, in fact, but it still is 
just that, an assumption.

It all hinges on how far before the fall of V-Mort Snape turned. If 
he was the one who warned D-Dore about the Potters, and if THAT was 
what convinced D-Dore he could be trusted, then I don't think we're 
talking about a lengthy period of time.

If he turned much earlier, say, after hearing the prophecy and 
realizing that James (who he owed one) and Lily (who he may or may 
not have been lollipopping after) were targets, then it could be.

And remember, there was still work to be done even after baby Harry 
took down V-Mort. Some DEs still kept at it.

There is also support for D-Dore teaching Snape Occlumens during the 
last 15 years.

1) Snape and D-Dore already have a plan hatched. At the end of GoF, D-
Dore says, "You know what I must ask you to do." That indicates there 
has been training for a purpose.

2) It explains why in the hell Snape has been at Hogwarts all this 
time. Its not like a talented Potions guy couldn't find work, and it 
is clear (to me, at least), whether he's good at teaching or not, 
that he really dislikes children. He's been there because D-Dore 
needs to train him.

> I mean, I know I'm giving him an awful lot to do, but hey. He is my 
favorite character. 
> And there's no reason he *couldn't* have.

See? It depends, to me, on timing. 

It's also possible - whoa! I like this one -- that he learned his 
Occlumency from V-Mort, and V-Mort wanted him to get the Potions job 
and be Head of Slytherin House to start training DEs. 

The Occlumency would have been to shield him from Dumbledore. Only V-
Mort, who really needs to go back to Evil Dictator School, made 
another mistake.

"Yes, Headmaster, I am with you in the fight against V-Mort! No, 
these aren't the droids you are looking for."

"Yes, Dark Lord, Dumbledore doesn't suspect a thing. Pay no attention 
to the man behind the curtain."

And D-Dore got through it anyway, which keeps Redeemed!Snape in play.

OR, D-Dore only THINKS he has, which keeps Evil!Snape or Fallen!Snape 
in play.

> Now, see, I do like the idea of a bigger connection between Neville 
and Snape in the past, like that; but I like the idea of a bigger 
connection between Snape and the Potter's even better. (Btw, about 
Neville, has anyone observed -- yes, probably --> that the 
possibility of Neville's having been the child in the prophecy may be 
> connected somehow to the reason the Pensieve Four went after the 
Longbottoms?)

You mean the FIRST Penseive Four? The ones in GoF? Yeah, that's 
entirely possible.

Let's have both! Let's have him have a connection to Neville AND to 
the Potters. Hey, he's your favorite character. I'm sure you won't 
mind.  

<responding to to discussion about Harry's right to know>

> Oh, absolutely! Anyway, one way or the other, does anyone seriously 
doubt that Harry *is* eventually going to be given the information? 
More on this below, btw.

Which is how I got into this mess to begin with... what if Hermione 
already knows? Whether she figured it out on her own, or D-Dore or 
Snape told her because she was hurt, humiliated and dangerous is 
immaterial.

What if Hermione knows? 

> Darrin wrote, on the subject of the "never forgive him, never" line:
>  
> > He has just lost Sirius. I don't think we can take what he is 
feeling and base a great deal of predictions on it. I'm not prepared 
to say > Harry's hate lasts for even half the next book.
> 
> <Derannimer groans, and puts one hand over her face. She stops 
groaning and lowers her hand to look at Darrin.>
> 
> Well really! Really! I mean to say, what! 
> 
> Darrin. That would be so boring. 
> 

Hey, not EVERYTHING can be bangy, darlin' 

> Besides, it's not just that Harry's *shown* feeling angry; JKR 
whops us over the head with it and says that he would "never forgive 
Snape, never." We are *told* that Harry is  feeling angry -- and he's 
not just feeling angry, btw, he does seem to hate Snape now> -- and I 
think we might be being told it because we're really not supposed to 
>miss it; because it is really *important.* 

Yeah, but what if it is important only because the turn is Harry's 
grief caving in on him and realizing that he is more to blame than 
anyone, even though D-Dore is really trying to get Harry to blame him 
and not Snape.

I really don't think it has to be boring, just not stretched out to 
page 1,358 or whatever the last page will be of Book 7.

> He added another bit of canon to complement my Double Bluff 
suggestion.
> 

<snip my "doth protest too much" routine>

> Yeah?
> 
> Well, I don't think I'll be as bummed as all that if Snape dies. I 
>mean, I'd put his chances of surviving the series at this point as 
>somewhere worse than 50-50, or even than 40-60. I don't think I'd be 
>real *surprised* or anything if Snape dies.

Yeah, me neither. 

> But I will be *heart-broken* if he turns out to be Ever So Evil. I 
mean, that would just be awful. 
> 
> And here you are, saying things that make it sound more plausible.
> 
> <Derannimer eyes Darrin resentfully for a moment, but not for too 
long, lest he smooch her again. Also, she's just thought of something 
else.>

Well, if you're just going to below the belt like that, I won't kiss 
you again.

> Logically speaking, though. . . 
> 
> <grudgingly>
> 
> . . . if he *does* turn out to be Ever So Evil, I suppose I really 
ought to *thank* you, for preventing it from coming as a complete 
shock. 

<faints from surprise>

<OK, snipping a touch because I have to get back to work>

> Notice, however --
> 
> <winces>
> 
> -- that none of this last objection, at any rate, applies to 
> ReallyDoesTryToSwitchSidesButRelapsesIntoEvilAnyway!Snape. I don't 
mind that one nearly as much though; it would be heart-breaking too, 
but in a different kind of way. I would, I think, consider it a 
tragedy. 
> But not a trick.

I'd agree that Evil!All!Along Snape would be a dirty trick to pull on 
readers. 

You know, I didn't even really start thinking he could be evil again 
until the "You call him Dark Lord bit in OoP."

That really made me look at him all over again. You can look it up. 
Last year, I wasn't proposing Evil!Snape so much as Git!Snape.

I mean, I thought he was a miserable git, but I figured he was on the 
side of the good guys. I was happy in my dislike for him, figuring 
he'd do something noble and honorable and I'd have to re-evaluate. 
Or, we'd find out it was a cover all along.

Well, I have, but not in the good direction.

Now, Fallen!Snape (I think that sums it up better than 
ReallyDoesTry...) is indeed a possibility and it seems even more so 
with the news that some hates run so deep in Snape that he can't 
teach Harry something crucial.

That's big. There are scars so deep that they won't be healed. Which 
means they are ripe for ripping back open by V-Mort.

Tragic, indeed.

Darrin