Good Slytherin (Was: Re: Thestrals and Slytherins)

[Kathryn Cawte]

No: HPFGUIDX 71297

Sorry this took so long in coming but there was a lot to cover.
Darrin - 
How exactly did Slytherin win the House cup for so many years in a 
row if everyone was against them? 

Me -

Well the reason I said I was discussing the years when Harry is there is
because we have no way of knowing how they won the cup in those years, but I
d say that winning the Quidditch Cup for so many years had something to do
with it since the scores in that seem to have quite a lot of weight where
the house Cup is concerned.And Quidditch is the one area in which there
seems to be no prejudice of any kind, it's decided ourely on skill.

Darrin -

McGonagall had taken away 150 points in one fell swoop for 
Gryffindor, which turned out to be nearly one-third of the entire 
point total for the year. A third of the work an entire house had 
done wiped out by three first years?

Me -

And the three of them won back the same amount of points later - just three
students being responsible for such big swings in the score does seem
unrealistic but frankly I'm not even going to try and explain the points
system because it seems very strange to me throughout the books with some
events winning or losing a disproportionate number of points compared to
others. The whole system seems to have no scale and makes absolutely no
sense to me at all.

Darrin -

That's a touch of an overreaction, I'd say, and if that's her modus 
operandi, it's no wonder Gryffindor wasn't winning the cup more. And 
considering we've never seen Snape take away a single point from his 
own house, it makes me wonder how much fairness the scoring system 
used.

Me -

As far as i can remember we've never seen him *giving* his house points
either.

Darrin -

Again, the Slytherins, being the jocks, the children of influence, 
having enough brains to win academic points and the ones most likley 
to succeed because of the purity of their blood, are closer to the 
Ruling Clique of Hogwarts than any other, before poor Harry the 
Orphan and his dirt-poor friend Ron and his mudblood friend Hermione 
show up.

Me -

But they're not the ruling clique of Hogwarts because the other three houses
write them all off as evil. They are excluded from by the other houses and
mistrusted. They are lumped together in one group - which was my point
actually. I was saying that the Slytherins who might be inclined to support
Dumbledore and the 'good' guys have no incentive to do so because they are
universally mistrusted outside of their own house. If you're going to be
blamed for doing something then you might as well go ahead and do it anyway
(if it's to your advantage). Why bother trying to fight against the views of
people like Draco if all it will do is alienate your housemates and you'll
in all liklihood *still* be mistrusted by the other houses. Look at Ron for
example - he still believes that the Slytherins are the only danger even
though his pet rat turned out to be a *gryffindor* turncoat. He refuses to
believe that Snape isn't out to kill Harry even though he has proven time
and time again that while he may not be a nice person he isn't out to harm
the boy. There has been a lot of discussion about why we have never seen a
good Slytherin - well with this sort of blind prejudice out there we're not
likely to either!

Darrin -

It's hard for me to buy the "shunned gang member" argument when these 
kids get start with so many breaks.

Me -

The only one we know with any kind of inherent advantage over the other kids
is Draco whose family are very rich - but we know that's not a Slytherin
only trait. Sirius' family were wealthy, Harry is wealthy. Academically they
re not likely to be any more or less bright than the Gryffindors or the
Hufflepuffs and and going to be on average less academically gifted than the
Ravenclaws. While they appear to have been lucky in their sporting ability
in the past they appear to be going through a bad patch currently, but on
average they are no more or less likely than the Gryffindors to be good at
Quidditch. Yes Slytherin accepts mainly purebloods (but there are exceptions
- Riddle, Harry himself since mahy of them don't seem to see him as being
pure enough) but being a pureblood isn't a purely Slytherin thing either.
There are purebloods in all the houses. So no I don't see them as starting
off as any better or worse than any of the houses.

Darrin -

Considering that Quirrell couldn't touch Harry, literally, couldn't 
touch Harry, I'd say Harry's pocket was safer than the mirror. We 
don't know that V-Mort - the cleverest student Hogwarts has ever 
produced -- wouldn't have, given enough time, figured out a way 
around the mirror.

Me -

Again 'pure, dumb luck' harry didn't know that when he went down there. If
you are arguing that lack of knowledge (as some people are) means he doesn't
get the blame for breaking the rules then by the same rule he can't get
dredit for this. I disagree that Voldemort could have got the stone out of
the mirror - he could never have done it personally beccause he had to want
to find the stone *but not use it* and he intended to use it. I don't agree
that finding a student and getting them down there would have been easy
either since firstly he would have needed to get around the obstacles
*again* and secondly there wouldn't have been enough potion to get through
the flames. There was only one left when Harry, which is why he went through
alone and Quirrelmort would have needed two (one for him, ne for his
captive). Plus from his words in the Stone Chamber he obviously had no clue
how the mirror worked.

Btw is there canon for him being the brightest student Hogwarts has ever
produced?

Darrin -

They tried to go to McGonagall twice. So, they tried to follow the 
rules. And while we're on the subject, they tried to go to Lockhart 
in CoS. They also attempted to reason with Snape in the Shrieking 
Shack. 

So, I think arrogance might be a bit harsh. They tried to warn people 
and were told, essentially, "You're just an 11-year-old. Shut up and 
go away."

Me -

They were told they were wrong *which they were* but they didn't want to
believe it. they were acting like foolish children so you can't fault
McGonagall for treating them like it.

Darrin -

Well, there you go. Because of Harry's actions, Quirrell died. How 
about V-Mort's actions in taking possession of him in the first 
place? Or Snape's actions in not turning him right in, but trying to 
play some "are you loyal?" game with him? Or D-Dore's actions for 
letting the game go on so long?

Me -

I didn't say that Harry was the only one to blame for Quirrel's death or
that his death was necessarily preventible. I merely pointed out that he
died because he touched Harry and if Harry hadnt been there it couldn't have
happened.

Darrin

They didn't intend to take on a troll. They intended to get Hermione 
out of the bathroom and up to the safety of Gryffindor tower. Now, 
should they have told a prefect? Yeah, but then the prefect would 
have left the students to get one. Or, Percy would have gotten the 
students up safely, THEN gone back for Hermione, by which time she 
would have been dead.

Me -

*The* Prefect? Percy isn't the only Gryffindor Prefect - there are at least
five others. Three to continue escorting the students to the common room for
example, two to go and look for Hermione and one to go and tell the staff?
Or are you suggesting that two eleven year olds are better equipped to face
a troll than two nearly adult wizards? And let's not forget that Harry and
Ron were the ones who locked the troll in the bathroom with Hermione in the
first place.

Darrin -

I'm glad you mentioned Draco. Not only did he break the flying rules, 
but was stealing Neville's property besides. He didn't get a 
detention, NOR was the threat of "You'll be expelled" followed 
through. 

Me -

He didn't get punished because he didn't get caught. They *both* should have
been punished for breaking the rules, but what actually happened is Draco
got away with it and Harry was rewarded.I was only mentioning the cases
where they broke the rules and were rewarded for it - I didn;t think I had
time to go in to all the other occasions that they broke the rules and got
away scot free.

Darrin -

And I have a hard time seeing how Harry wouldn't grasp that the rules 
don't apply to him when he and his friends lose 150 points for trying 
to help Hagrid. That seems to have driven it home quite nicely. 

Me -

Well no actually it doesn't seem to have driven it home at all. If it had
then firstly we'd have seen them thinking before they act in future and we
didn't and secondly they wouldn't have felt that they were being punished
unfairly. They seem satisfied that Draco was punished but not because he was
breaking the rules but because he was spying on them. No they don't seem to
have learnt anything from that experioence - other than possibly to try not
to get caught next time.

K