[HPforGrownups] Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB]

[Erika L.]

No: HPFGUIDX 74308

It's far too late to be responding to SHIPping threads but here I go anyway.
I'll just pick it up in  the middle and reply to a few points.

<big snip>

Charlie Moody wrote:
> > In GoF, she's clearly indifferent to his
> >post-Yule
> >sulking & brooding, thinks very little of his emphasis on appearances
> >over
> >substance, and generally not terribly impressed w/ Ron as a male.

Pshemekan replied:
> Is she terribly impressed with any other male? She seems to be
> indifferent to any male (even Victor) -- no giggling, sighing etc.

    First, what makes you think sighing and giggling have to be involved?
These are cliches of female behaviour much more associated with Lavender and
Parvati. I'll grant you that Hermione went through her crush phase with
Lockhart, but she was twelve, and I take it for granted that she would act
differently now. As an R/H shipper are you really expecting her to giggle
and sigh over Ron?

> >Pshemekan stated:
> Firstly, Hermione's disapprovement of Ron's behaviour as prefect is only
> about his avoidance to properly police his brothers. Canon states
> nothing about other situations where Ron as a prefect didn't do
> something as he should.

    Actually, that's not quite true. After Umbridge's speech when everyone
is dismissed from the hall, the Prefects are expected to lead the first-year
students. Hermione must remind Ron of this since he "had obviously
forgotten". He proceeds to address the first-years as "Midgets" and when
Hermione berated him, he protests "Well, they are, they're titchy" (Canadian
ed 194). I'd say a
lack of respect for younger students, particularly a group of already
nervous eleven-year-olds qualifies as an example of Ron being less than
exemplary as a Prefect.

    Assuming Ron is a good Prefect offstage is just that-- an assumption.
In terms of canon I think we have more indication of Ron being an
ineffective Prefect than of anything else. I can't recall an example of his
doing anything useful as a Prefect. Since this is all we've seen of him, I
assume he's doing the same thing off stage. I will have to see something in
canon before I assume otherwise.

Charlie Moody wrote:
> >It IS often Ron who's first to defend Hermione...but it's also Harry
> >who's
> >OFTEN first to do so.  If you feel you can demonstrate that Ron does so
> >MORE often, please do.

Pshemekan retorted:
> Quotes (from books 1-4) , are on those R/H ship pages:
> http://www.geocities.com/gryffindor_phoenix/ronandhermione.html
> http://www.much-ado.net/rhmoments.html
> http://www.sugarquill.net/index.php?action=goodshiprh&st=rhtogether
> Also, there is excellent essay titled: Why is Hermione Not the Right
> Girl for Harry?
> here: http://www.sugarquill.net/index.php?action=goodshiprh&st=angua
>
> I don't feel like anybody is going to count those, but I just quote one
> counterexample from OOP:
> "Kreacher's pale eyes widened and he muttered faster and more furiously
> than ever.
> 'The Mudblood is talking to Kreacher as though she is my friend, if
> Kreacher's mistress saw him in such company, oh, what would she say - '
> 'Don't call her a Mudblood!' said Ron and Ginny together, very angrily."
>
If you want essays, here are some H/H ones. A bit uneven, but there are a
few very well done ones.
http://www.pumpkinpie.org/index.php?x=ship.php

I'll grant you that Ron often defends Hermione, but so does Harry.
Unfortunately I don't have a quote handy and that wouldn't prove which of
the two defends her more frequently in any case. Other than direct verbal
attacks, Harry defends Hermione when he feels people are thinking of her
badly. He defends her and her idea to jinx the DA sheet when Cho says it was
a "horrible trick". Also, back in GoF, when Mrs. Weasely is cold towards
Hermione because she belives the rumours spread by Rita Skeeter, Harry
notices Hermione's distress and assures Mrs. Weasely that none of these
rumours are true.

    However, these examples aren't really direct SHIPping evidence in either
case. The quote with Kreacher features Ginny defending Hermione as well as
Ron, yet no one's suggesting that Ginny, too, has feeling for Hermione.

<snips discussion about H/H speculation>

<snips discussion about possible Luna ships>

Pshemekan continued:
> Now let me share some (random) thoughts.
> Main problem with SHIPs is, that mating rituals of humans are deeply
> complicated. And adoscolent humans mating rituals are complicated beyond
> comprehension. Almost any behaviour could be interpreted both ways:
> she-loves-him/she-loves-him-not. Not to mention that in Harry Potter
> series JKR did everything that she could to muddy our reception of what
> is _really_ going on on SHIP front.
>
> However, I belive, most clear is R/H SHIP, and it was confirmed by JKR
> herself
>
(http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2003/0620-dateline-c
ouric.htm),
> in the interview with Catie Couric.
> I already argued on this forum about parallels between Ron/Hermione &
> Arthur/Molly, and no doubt there was plenty of such discussion so far.
>
 I've gotten to the point where I simply don't trust JKR's interview
comments. They tend to be fairly misleading and usually novel specific.
Besides which, Rowling has no interest in telling readers what is going to
happen in the novels. She constantly drops hints about what may or may not
happen just to whet people's appetites and keep people guessing. Until she
gives a straight yes/no answer on the SHIPping front, I think all bets are
still on.

    As for the R/H Arthur/Molly I'm guessing you mean in particular the
moment where someone (is it Harry?) is reminded of A/M when he sees R/H
bickering? As for Hermione/Molly, yes, Sirius suggests that Hermione frets
and worries just as Molly does and then Ron later agrees with that earlier
statement. And then there's Hermione's knitting I suppose. I'll grant you
all of this. To be frank, I don't know what to make of this. Putting aside
SHIPs for a moment, I'd be terribly disappointed if Hermione simply
metamorphosed into Molly Weasely. Hermione is very gifted and she has strong
convictions. I can't imagine her simply settling down, immersing herself in
the domestic arts, raising a half dozen or so children, and being satisfied.
Molly seems to be and that's fine. But I simply couldn't see this as being
in keeping with Hermione's character.

Pshemekan noted:
> Readers, who engage in SHIP discussions, must remember that we see
> everything from Harry's POV so we know virtually nothing events unless
> Harry witnessed it or was told about it. That unfortunately, leads often
> to assumptions that what Harry had seen is 100% full truth.
>
> Usually, Ron is victim of such assumptions - since all Harry had seen is
> Ron avoiding his prefect duties if they regarded F&G, it was assumed
> that he was a bad prefect. However, Harry (and we) was not present when
> Ron was using his prefect position in various other times. Neither Harry
> heard Hermione complaining about Ron.
> Similarly, since Harry is by definition not present when Hermione and
> Ron are spending together time, it is often assumed, that they don't do
> that, and consequently Harry is the one who binds trio together. (Insert
> here counter-examples: Hermione's summer holidays, xmas holidays,
> prefect duties, OOP leaving feast, time when Harry was not allowed in
> Hogsmeade, time when Harry practised with Snape (Lupin), time when Harry
> had detention with Umpridge, time when Harry was practising Quidditch,
> time when Harry was with Cho and numerous other examples when Harry was
> coming through portrait and find Ron & Hermione sitting by fire)
> Just because everything what Harry see is Ron moaning about homework it
> is assumed, that Ron is worst student in trio, however we know nothing
> about Ron's results on exams (all we know is that he passed).
>
>
> So, when arguing something is SHIP, arguer should remeber that if
> something was not stated explicite it does not mean that is not exists.

Ah, but it doesn't mean that it _does_ exist either. There are assumptions
being made either way. For one, why must Hermione always be with Ron when
she's not with Harry? We have evidence that she's become friends with Ginny.
Also, Hermione spends a great deal of her time studying. We know from GoF
that she spends vast amounts of time in the library, and certainly with
O.W.Ls coming up, it's not going too far to suggest that she does the same
in OoP. So when is she spending all this time with Ron? I'm sure she spends
_some_ time with him-- when she's not in class, in the library studying,
doing homework, or in the girls' dorms.

    As to the Prefect issue, I commented on that earlier. As I said, we have
more examples of Ron being a bad Prefect than good. If Rowling wanted to
suggest otherwise she could have done so quite easily. But, as far as I
recall, she didn't.

> I deeply apologize if something is unclear here, I typed this message
> too long with too many long words.
> Regards,
> --
> Pshemekan
> Ron & Hermione SHIP - I hope so; Ron & Hermione friendship -- 100% sure

I also apologise in advance if I've come off as overly aggressive or
offensive in any way. It's late and I'm in a bit of a hurry. I respect the
fact that you've tried to argue within canon-- I mean what else is there,
right?

Best,
Erika (Wolfraven)