From patricia at obscure.org Sun Jun 1 00:17:30 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 20:17:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Another potions expert? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59070 On Sat, 31 May 2003, snazzzybird wrote: > I believe that Dumbledore has placed a standing order > for the wolfsbane potion from his Potions Master, and that Snape > grudgingly, with much dark muttering about "the werewolf", brews it > up for him. > > --snazzzybird, who wouldn't mind being the post owl who makes THAT > delivery! :-) Hmmm, I wonder if that is even possible. I imagine there are some potions that need to be taken within a narrow time frame or they lose their potency. If the wolfsbane potion had a substantial shelflife Lupin wouldn't have had to wait around for Snape to deliver it on the night of his transformation. Snape could have brewed it whenever and Lupin would have just grabbed a dose out of his medicine cabinet when he needed it. Keeping a werewolf well-stocked in wolfsbane potion would seem much safer than delivering the doses one at a time just hours before the transformation is supposed to take place. What if the delivery person got lost or delayed? What if a lab accident messed up the first batch and Snape had to make a second? Then again, Snape could have held up delivering the potion as yet another power play in his personal vendetta against Lupin. We may never know. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jun 1 00:21:55 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 00:21:55 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts letters, wizarding shopping, and Money issues (was: Money issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59071 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > manawydan at n... writes: > > > One thought that has crossed my mind is what happens when the > > Muggle parents of a potential Hogwarts student are truly on the > > breadline and unable even to get their child to Kings Cross > > station, leave alone buy all the books, robes, accessories, and > > so on? (I'm thinking not even of someone like Colin's dad, who is > > working though on a low wage, but let's say a single parent on > > Income Support) My (entirely non-canonical) suggestion is that > > the parent just doesn't get a letter. I not only can't see Dumbledore going along with that, but I don't see how it could be arranged. According to JKR, the Quill writes the name of each magical child born in Britain in a book when it is born and once a year McGonagall consults the books and addresses Hogwarts letters to each of this year's crop. Nothing about the Quill being able to look into the future to see the child's financial situation at age 11 (Tom Marvolo Riddle's was pretty awful at that time) and nothing about McGonagall checking the child's financial sitation. JKR's statement about the Quill needs some further co-ordination ... how could Neville's Gran have been concerned whether or not he was magical enough to go to Hogwarts if his name had been in the Book since birth? That requires supposing another rule, that no one can check the Book except (Dumbledore and) McGonagall (and maybe that even they cannot peek ahead in it). What about a magic child who was born overseas while its British Muggle parents were on holiday or working overseas for just a few years? That child was not born in Britain, but is British, living in Britain when Hogwarts-aged, and needs to go to Hogwarts. How did the Quill know to write down its name despite being overseas at the time? Maybe it observes all British adults in their travels over the world as well as all adults located in Britain during their presence. What about a magic child who was born overseas but later emigrated to Britain (with its immigrant parents OR by adoption)? The Quill would have to watch the whole world AND foretell which child would be emigrating. Therefore, I would much prefer if the Quill detected the children when they were Hogwarts age. Then there would have been no book for Neville's Gran to check in advance. But Hagrid's statement that Harry had been down for Hogwarts since he was born would have to be still another Hagrid exageration. I like the idea that the Quill identifies the detected children by addressing the letters that McGonagall was going to give to the owls to deliver, because that would cut out an intermediary -- quills are MEANT to write. Otoh, my multi-campus theory has place for an intermediary -- after the Quill lists the children in order of their magical power, so that the top 280 can go to Hogwarts Castle and the others can go to the other campus(es), someone adjusts the sequence so that the children of old wizarding families or families with wizarding political pull get raised to the top 280 and others get lower to make room for them. > > I suspect that was one of the questions, if not THE question, over > which the founders of Hogwarts broke up. Salazar Slytherin, who > didn't want muggle-borns trained *at all* would certainly have > suggested the "no letter" policy. But I suspect that the others > thought that the most important thing is to give young wizards and > witches the training they need to prosper, whether they can afford > to pay or not. In some ways it would have been less expensive for the Muggle-born students in the Founders' time. In those days, the Muggle means of transportation to school would have been WALKING (for days, weeks, or months), not going to London to catch a train to Scotland. In my imagination, in the early days of Hogwarts, the Founders went out individually finding the students they wanted and bringing them to Hogwarts. In my mind, I see an adult with a walking staff leading a group of teens on a walking journey -- perhaps the origin of the "Pied Piper"? -- but I suppose magic transportation (Portkeys, flying carpets, hippogryffs) might have been more efficient. I wonder if the wizarding folk had a shopping district (Diagon Alley or a precursor) in those days. They might have retained some urban life, including shopping districts, from Roman times, even tho' Muggles didn't. If not, they would have had to get their school supplies AT school, perhaps purchased from wizarding wandering peddlers... Muggle students at that time would have gotten their (few and precious) books by handcopying books belonging to their teachers. I don't know if the wizarding folk had invented magical means of mass producing books yet (as Muggles did later with the printing press). If not, had they invented magical means of reproducing books one at a time? Such as enchanting an existing book so that it splits (like cellular mitosis) into two identical clones, or so it gives birth to an identical baby book? Or enchanting a quill so that it writes the copy of the existing book while the human does something else more enjoyable and less causative of writers' cramp? > I'm reasonably certain that "tuition assistance" is available at > Hogwarts, even to the point of waiving the fees entirely, IIRC we don't KNOW whether there is any tuition and fees at Hogwarts. I like to think that there is no tuition or fees, with all the school's expenses paid either by income from its ancient endowment or by magic. Vernon's pout that he wouldn't pay to have Harry taught magic was either rooted in total ignorance or referred to buying textbooks rather than to paying tuition. > and providing books, uniforms, etc. Actually, I happen to agree with you. I imagine that some adult at Hogwarts (maybe Madam Pomfrey) oversees a stash of used and badly worn books and robes (and maybe cauldrons and broomsticks) to be given to children who can't afford their own. The embarrassment of having such worn-out things would discourage use of this charity. But I don't know how relying on used things discarded by previous students would cope with Lockhart (or anyone else)'s sudden addition of books to the curriculum. Giving the charity as cash or store credit would help solve those two problems. Someone even suggested on list that Mrs Weasley saves the receipts for all those school books and turns them in for reimbursement -- I don't know if that would hurt her Weasley pride too much; it doesn't explain why Ginny got an worn old used Transfiguration textbook (CoS). From bard7696 at aol.com Sun Jun 1 00:53:44 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 00:53:44 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts letters, wizarding shopping, and Money issues (was: Money issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59072 ---Catlady: > I not only can't see Dumbledore going along with that, but I don't > see how it could be arranged. According to JKR, the Quill writes the name of each magical child born in Britain in a book when it is born and once a year McGonagall consults the books and addresses Hogwarts... I think the first part of your statement is the clincher. Dumbledore, who believes in giving werewolves, DE's who say they've reformed, half-giants and insane ex-Aurors jobs, would certainly not let money get in the way of a worthy student attending. Perhaps children who are in Harry's special situation, such as living amongst the Muggliest Muggles you'd ever seen, get the kind of special "home visit" that Hagrid gave Harry. Perhaps Riddle even got one, from some other staff member, back in the day. Riddle would have had to pay for his books, would he not? And he doesn't appear to have been left the fortune Harry was. Someone helped him get through school. > What about a magic child who was born overseas while its British > Muggle parents were on holiday or working overseas for just a few > years? That child was not born in Britain, but is British, living in Britain when Hogwarts-aged, and needs to go to Hogwarts. How did the Quill know to write down its name despite being overseas at the time? All good questions, as were the other questions you raised. Something that is lost in all this letter business is parental choice. We know that there is parental choice, because Lucius nearly sent Draco to Durmstrang and it was Narcissa (at least so far as Draco knows) who talked him out of it. That indicates that the mother and father have some say in the matter as well. We don't know if it's uncommon for British students to be studying abroad or if it's limited to people with the means the Malfoys have, but we at least have an indication the parents choose the school. This could also account for the Potters putting Harry's name down for Hogwarts right after he was born. If parents can do that, it could be with the understanding that if the child is a Squib -- which I think is fairly rare -- then the letter doesn't come. Darrin From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 1 00:55:32 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 00:55:32 -0000 Subject: Hopes for Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59073 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chuck" wrote: > Things I hope to see and not see in book 5 > Tighter writing. > Book 4 was a real downer for me when I got to the end due to the > whole Portkey / specific activation time issue. Not because the > whole "Catch an early portkey" line was ignored, rather because it > didn't need a lot of effort to make it work. All that was needed > was that a portkey have an activation command instead of an > activation time to make that work. Hmmm... depends what is meant by 'prearranged time'. Which is what Mr Weasley says; not 'specific activation time', just 'prearranged time.' If I arrange to meet someone to catch a train, I might have a prearranged time of 11:20. If I arrange to meet someone at their house, I might have a prearranged time of 'Saturday morning'. Both are 'prearranged times', but one has a window of 1 min 58 secs, the other a window of 3 or 4 hours. The QWC has thousands of wizards arriving. It makes sense that the prearranged times would be very specific, to avoid the Stoatshead Hill wizards colliding with the wizards from the Black Forest who arrive 8 minutes later. The Third Task of the Triwizard tournament takes hours, and there's no real way of telling precisely when the winner will touch it. But if the Portkey has been set to 'night of June 24th', that's also a prearranged time, just with a wide window. > Additionally, all that was > needed was a line from Voldemort that Harry's blood was no good to > him unless he had a certain level of skill as a wizard for his > rebirth spell to work and the purpose of having Harry in the > Tournament is validated. > That smells of rushed writing to me (and validated IMHO by the > Lily / James emergence issue). Or alternatively, Voldemort had some other reason for wanting Harry to turn up at a specific, publicly known time. But the author wants that reason kept hidden for a later book. See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40044 for my take on what might be going on in the background of the Graveyard Scene in GoF. Even without MAGICDISHWASHER, there are certain preparations that Voldemort needs to make for his potion. He has to be carried by Pettigrew to the Graveyard. Pettigrew has to lug a bloomin' great stone cauldron there. The ceremony has to take place at some time when the graveyard isn't full of muggles weeping over their relatives' graves. All these things suggest that knowing *when* Harry will come through is convenient for Voldemort as well. The toothbrush type portkey has the 'Harry decided not to brush his teeth that morning, as he was in a hurry' factor. The first task has the problem that it's going to be difficult to 'fix' which dragon the contestant gets, and thus which egg Harry will touch. The second task means Harry only *has* to touch another human - no portkeys there. The third task has the advantage that the winner *must* touch one, and only one, Cup to win. It is also, unlike the first two tasks, held at night. How many people are going to go near a graveyard, at night, where a bunch of loonies in cowled robes are holding some kind of ceremony? No? Thought not. [grin] > > The book is later than was planned. Let's hope that means quality > control was turned up a notch. > As far as I'm aware, the only major FLINT in GoF is the wand order error. There are 629 pages in GoF (UK paperback). With 629 pages of plot to consider, an author is lucky to remember that Mad Eye Moody also has a wooden leg. ;-) After all, other 'classic' authors have made equally 'classic' errors. They have forgotten that they've killed off minor characters, they have forgotten the names of major characters (e.g. Conan Doyle, who couldn't remember whether Dr. Watson was called John Watson or James Watson). Having analysed Chapters 32 to 34 in some detail [grin], I can only say that they don't 'feel' like they're loosely plotted. Quite the opposite. They feel like densely plotted chapters where the reader doesn't yet know what's really going on. And the wand order, whilst dramatic, isn't actually important to the later plot, so JKR thought she could rely on memory and didn't check her notes ... I think the proverb is 'even Homer nods'. Even the greatest of great authors have their FLINTS. Pip!Squeak ["you need cool calculating bastards to save the world" ? I like it!] From tepmurt at hotmail.com Sun Jun 1 01:48:24 2003 From: tepmurt at hotmail.com (tepmurt9981) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 01:48:24 -0000 Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most? In-Reply-To: <9kjngb+bpsf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59074 "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" > > > > I think it bears discussing here. We are all adults (or close > >enough to it)--are there any aspects or characters in the Harry > >Potter books that creep you out? > > I decided to have a look at what all you were all discussing when the > group started (which was almost a year ago!)and I came across this > thread. It seemed worth starting up again considering how many people > belong to this group now. Then, "Sofie " wrote: > > Anyway the character that scares me the most. This is probably going > to be unusual but it has to be Peter Pettigrew. I know that he's > portrayed as a snivelling (sp?) coward but the fact that he betrayed > two of his best friends and then set another one up really chilled > me. I often find human characters more scary than monsters because > it's very likely that there are people just like them in the real > world and that you might know them. Anyways that's my idea. Anyone > else want to continue with this thread? > Now me: I completely agree. Peter is in the unique position of being "dead" to the majority of the WW. There's also the matter of the "life debt" which of course helps Harry out a bit, but after that, who knows? Not only that, but we don't really know what silver metal Peter's hand is made out of. I really, really like Lupin, and this worries me. Another character that is making me a bit nervous is Fudge. Someone in such an influential position who, as of the end of GoF, seems to have his head buried permanently in the sand. Fudge has a few "issues" to work out before I'll trust him, personally. He managed to convict Sirius, w/o so much as a priori incantatum. And now, he's willing to believe Skeeter's tabliod articles over Harry's testimony, even when Harry has time and again averted Voldie- disasters. Naughty, bad, squirrelly Fudge!! Speaking of Skeeter, she also makes me nervous. I could see her going either way. I realize that she has to take a brief hiatus, courtesy of Hermione and her brilliant brains, but when Skeeter comes back in book six in who's side will she be a thorn? She's got guts, and this is why I could see her really saying some things that the DEs would hate to see in print, or if Fudge is still in denial I could see Skeeter being instrumental in bringing awareness to the WW at large. However, she's been an obstacle for Harry before and there's no reason why she couldn't be again. I guess, though, that the person that scares me the most is Fudge. It's not an "I'm scared of him" type of feeling, but more of an "I'm scared of what he'll do." At least with Voldemort I've got some sense of direction... tepmurt From tepmurt at hotmail.com Sun Jun 1 01:57:41 2003 From: tepmurt at hotmail.com (tepmurt9981) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 01:57:41 -0000 Subject: Another potions expert? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59075 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jaimee" wrote: > Ersatz Harry wrote: > > > > Just out of curiosity, who do you suppose is keeping Lupin > supplied > > > with his werewolf prevention potion these days? Snape doesn't > seem > > > like he'd be that willing to do do without a specific request from > > > Dumbledore, and we hear from Lupin that the potion is a difficult > > one > > > to make. Does that mean that some other potions expert will > emerge > > > somewhere outside Hogwarts? > > > > > > Ersatz Harry > > Gina replied: > > > Hmmm. While it would be rather interesting to see a bit of > > Potions "competition" as it were, I've just thought that Lupin has > to > > do without. He doesn't seem to have a lot of money. So even if he > > did know someone else who could do it, he probably couldn't afford > > it. Unless there is a wizarding national health system aside from > > institutionalization at St. Mungo's... > > > > Gina > > Jaimee suggests: > > What about Arabella Figg? I mean...her house does smell like cabbage. > And this smell is associated with potions! And she was one of > the "Old Crowd" and quite possibly friendly with Lupin... > > Just a thought :) > > Jaimee tepmurt replies: I had thought that the cabbage smell was polyjuice potion. This is not to say that Arabella couldn't be supplying Lupin w/ wolfsbane potion, however there is still the aspect of cost. If wolfsbane is so expensive then how could she afford to keep purchasing the required ingredients? Also, why has Harry never noticed Lupin, or _someone_ unusual, going and coming from this old lady's house? He does say that she lives alone, and I would imagine frequent visits from an unknown visitor being noticed (especially w/ nosey Aunt Petunia). tepmurt From yellows at aol.com Sun Jun 1 03:12:17 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 23:12:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Transfiguration Question Message-ID: <34E2798C.4FEF65BD.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59076 In a message dated 5/31/2003 6:30:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, Corinth writes: <> :) Oh, I don't know. I'm willing to envision (with pleasure and a grin on my face) Draco getting less and less human (he hasn't far to go, has he?) every time someone changes him into a ferret. The difference is just subtle after only one transfiguration. Maybe someday he'll be able to do nothing at all but squeak and scurry about the floor. :) I like it. Brief Chronicles <-- Not a Malfoy fan :) From maidne at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 01:32:04 2003 From: maidne at yahoo.com (maidne) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 01:32:04 -0000 Subject: Another Dementor question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59077 Did anyone else get the impression that the dementors were somehow targeting Harry? The first one he sees, on the train, tries to enter the compartment that Harry is in. Then on the quidditch field they are all standing in the middle of the field looking up at Harry. Why would they not be roaming around among the screaming, excited fans, soaking up all that emotion? And then finally, at the lake, Harry, Hermione, and Sirius are all there and incapacitated, but Harry is the one the dementor reaches for and almost kisses. Am I reading too much into this? Susan From maidne at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 01:18:01 2003 From: maidne at yahoo.com (maidne) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 01:18:01 -0000 Subject: Transfiguration Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59078 What's disturbing to me about this whole idea is this: what happens to something or someone turned into an inanimate object? In the books we see beetles turned into a coat buttons and turtles into teapots. Would the brain/consciousness just completely go away? Then what happens if/when it is transfigured back into itself, does everything come back? What if there's a mental equivalent to being splinched? This is almost harder to think about than the time travel thing. :) "corinthum" wrote: > From what we saw with Draco the ferret, it seems that thigs > return to their previous state when retransfigured, regardless of the > effects of the original transfiguration. > > -Corinth, who hopes this little detail is clarified in a future book, > because it's really beginning to bug me. :) Susan's reply: It also seems that Draco remembered being a ferrett, witness Hermione's tweaking him by pretending that Professor Moody was standing behind him, and calling him a "twitchy little ferret". So he must have retained some of his human consciousness while in ferret form. Susan From leperockon at aol.com Sun Jun 1 01:04:55 2003 From: leperockon at aol.com (taylorlynzie) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 01:04:55 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore...evil? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59079 One of the hottest debates since GoF has been...you guessed it: Is Dumbledore evil? I have tried to think of every possible solution to this and this is my theory of what makes the most sense to me: As everyone has probably noticed the main theme in GoF is our choices (as will it be for the remainder of the books JKR has stated) Dumbledore mentions on at least two occasions that it matters not what someone is born but what they grow to be and also; it is our choices that shape who we are. Even way back in CoS Dumbledore says to Harry that it was the choice that Harry made NOT to be in Slytherin that set him apart from Voldemort. He also says that making the right choice is not always making the easy choice. ....Annnnyways....getting on to my point of this post is that I believe that Dumbledore was perhaps born into a Dark Family, maybe even like the Malfoy's, gauging that he is around 150 this is quite possible without knowing much detail from the books. I could see Dumbledore being raised in a dark family much like little Draco yet being sorted into Gryffindor; thus greatly dissapointing his Dark family. He may have been molded to be next in line and may have even started to pursue this before realising the Dark way is not the right way. He could have made the very difficult descion (thus forth bring the quote into understandable and personal terms: What is right is not always the easiest choice...or something along those lines.). This could continue to be a daily struggle for him, for being raised in this Dark family he might still have doubts about the good side. That though Dumbledore was once on the dark side he slowly came over to the light (for reasons unknown to me) yet he still has to fight to stay good. It even mentions in the books that Dumbledore knows a great deal of dark magic (from his family?) but chooses not to use it. Perhaps having the ability to perform dark magic and not using it could be a struggle, this could also Snapes vindictivness. He was so far over in the Dark Arts that he was a death eater, this could have been why he finds it so hard to be cheerful (though I doubt being cheerful is in his nature, yet all the same.) maybe the dark magic not being used could cause and internal struggle that you constantly fight. This could explain the "glint of triumph" because when Harry mentions that Voldemort could now touch him, this was a bit of the dark magic deep in his veins coming through. One last point to make is that this could be the reason that Dumbledore was the only wizard that Voldemort ever feared: Because Voldemort knew that Dumbledore was capable of the dark magics that could match, or out weigh his own. Just some food for thought while we wait for book 5. By the way I am new to this community. Sorry if this post was a little uncomprehendable, I was typing as fast as I was thinking because new points kept popping up in my head. Cheers- Taylor From maidne at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 01:01:55 2003 From: maidne at yahoo.com (maidne) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 01:01:55 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59080 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ericvsthem" wrote: > The people whose where-abouts needed to be accounted for - Snape (who > even at the time of the map creation was trying to bust the foursome), > Dumbledore, Filch, Ms. Norris, faculty, and probably Ministry of Magic > employees like Crouch - showed up on the map. Students, unless near > the map itself, would not show up on it. > > > "ericvsthem" Susan's reply: Except that Crouch wasn't a ministry employee, Harry just thought he was. It was really Crouch, Jr. that Harry was seeing. Susan From glcherry at bellsouth.net Sun Jun 1 03:58:10 2003 From: glcherry at bellsouth.net (stardancerofas) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 03:58:10 -0000 Subject: another potions expert Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59081 tepmurt wrote: >>>>> Also, why has Harry never noticed Lupin or someone unusual going and coming from this old lady's house. He does say that she lives alone. I would imagine frequent visits from an unknown visitor being noticed (especially w/nosey Aunt Petunia.) <<<<< Now StardancerofAS (A.K.A. Lorrie) :) I get the digest so if half of the 7,162 people on this list answered this...forgive me. Cats tepmurt, Cats. Mrs. Figg has always had lots of cats. Going, coming as cats do. Who is to say that some of those cats were not wizards in disguise? Not Animagi, but a spell cast that temp. shows the 'person' as a cat. After all, she did show Harry photos when he spent time at her house of her cats. Lorrie (who is going to go stark raving nutters if June 21st doesn't get here soon, and hopes beyond hope that Remus and Sirius DO NOT die in the series. Harry needs his Godfather, and Sirius needs his friend.) From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jun 1 05:23:56 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 05:23:56 -0000 Subject: Transfiguration Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59082 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maidne" wrote: > What's disturbing to me about this whole idea is this: what happens > to something or someone turned into an inanimate object? In the > books we see beetles turned into a coat buttons and turtles into > teapots. Would the brain/consciousness just completely go away? Is transfiguring a living critter into an inanimate object killing it? In that case, when an inanimate object is transfigured into a living critter (rock --> dog in the recent example, teacup --> rats in Petunia's comment about Lily), where does the life come from? In the utterly secular view in which life, consciousness, personality, decisions, are just results of physical/biochemical/neuroelectric physiological processes (consciousness, personality, decisions mostly in the brain), there can be no survival without a body, therefore no ghosts, there, that view is not the truth in the wizarding world. (I don't exactly like it in RL either!) My friend suggested that it has no life in it, is just a meat robot with a kind of AI program, and therefore can neither create nor procreate. Unless the wizard who transfigured it from inanimate to animate put some of his own life in it, in which case it's a real living thing. But there are kinds of programs now (so so much AI as neural network) that are creative, in terms of designing gadgets innovative enough and useful enough and non-obvious enough to fully deserve being patented... > Then what happens if/when it is transfigured back into itself, does > everything come back? Is there a difference between transfiguring it back into itself versus removing the original transfiguration spell that was on it? Anyway, if one or both turns it back into itself, is it a live self, a dead self, or a meat robot imitation self as above? (That's close to your question 'does everything come back?') So where was 'everything' during the transfiguration: stuck in the inanimate object watching what was going on around it, unconscious, out being a ghost ... From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 05:42:05 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 05:42:05 -0000 Subject: Dementors kiss In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59083 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: > > MM ... use the Dementor's Kiss as a punishment for DEs, ..., if the > kiss was going to make the DE *more* dangerous. ...edited... > prisoner ...render him harmless to the wizarding world. > Leaving him with all his brains and powers but removing his > conscience would hardly seem to fit the bill. > > ---- > Patricia Bullington-McGuire bboy_mn: Maybe I'm just stating the obcvious but your post reminded me that the Dementor's Kiss is Capital Punishment. In the wizard's world it is the equivalent of the death sentence, but they have a loop hole, in a manner of speaking. They have found a way to take someone's life, in effect, destroying them, but at the same time not actually killing them. One could rationalize that this is a very enlightened 'death sentence', but in some ways, it almost seems crueler than true death; it steals away the very essense of life and leaves the body to waste away, too die of misery and disease. Just a thought. bboy_mn From jmeec316 at aol.com Sun Jun 1 05:43:56 2003 From: jmeec316 at aol.com (Jaimee) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 05:43:56 -0000 Subject: Another potions expert? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59084 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tepmurt9981" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jaimee" wrote: > > Ersatz Harry wrote: > > > > > > Just out of curiosity, who do you suppose is keeping Lupin > > supplied > > > > with his werewolf prevention potion these days? > > > > > > > > Jaimee suggests: > > > > What about Arabella Figg? I mean...her house does smell like cabbage. > > And this smell is associated with potions! And she was one of > > the "Old Crowd" and quite possibly friendly with Lupin... > > > > Just a thought :) > > Jaimee > > tepmurt replies: > > I had thought that the cabbage smell was polyjuice potion. This is not to say > that Arabella couldn't be supplying Lupin w/ wolfsbane potion, however there > is still the aspect of cost. If wolfsbane is so expensive then how could she > afford to keep purchasing the required ingredients? Also, why has Harry > never noticed Lupin, or _someone_ unusual, going and coming from this old > lady's house? He does say that she lives alone, and I would imagine frequent > visits from an unknown visitor being noticed (especially w/ nosey Aunt > Petunia). > > tepmurt And Jaimee retorts: I know the cabbage smell has been discussed at length on here. However, I am going to highlight some of this again. In PS/SS (p. 81 US hardback) Harry notices that the Apothecary smells of "a mixure of bad eggs and rotten cabbages." The polyjuice potion is described as smelling of cabbages. And Harry also notes that Mrs. Figg's "whole house smelled of cabbage (p. 22 SS hardback)." I have my doubts as to whether Mrs. Figg herself is using the polyjuice potion, but that doesn't mean she isn't using potions at all! She must be skilled at something to be one of Dumbledore's "Old Gang," so why not speculate that she has skills with potions. And that is one reason she is positioned to help protect Harry when he's away from Hogwarts. And Dumbledore request to Sirius placed Lupin in the infamous "old gang" as well, so we know that Lupin and Figg are at least associates. Maybe Dumbledore would ask her for such a favor as tending to Lupin's monthly needs. Also, remember that Mrs. Figg lives "two streets away (p.22 SS)" from Privet Drive (perhaps on Magnolia Crescent?? it *is* "several streets away (p.31 PoA US hardback)" from Privet Drive as well...) So there is no reason to assume Petunia or Harry keeps tabs on who comes and goes from Mrs. Figg's house. And....one could always apparate to the other's home...or travel by Floo Powder...and the neighbors would never need to know. Smiles, Jaimee --who still thinks all of the wizards helping protect Harry drop by Figgs house from time to time so she can transfigure them (or use a potion to turn them) into cats so they can check up on Harry. These frequent visitors are believed to include Dumbledore, Snape, and Lupin <--Lupin, as well as others who were friends with Harry's parents, *are* concerned about their deceased friends' only son and have been since that horrible Halloween night soon to be 14 years ago...We just aren't aware all of this goes on because Harry himself doesn't know yet ;-) From Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 1 06:14:48 2003 From: Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com (Rosebeth C.) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 23:14:48 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Transformations, Clothes, etc. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59085 >From: "greatlit2003" > >Do Animagi retain their possessions when they transform? HP being a >children's book, we can't have a naked Sirius strutting around the >Shrieking Shack, so we know that they keep their clothes. But would >Animagi be able to keep the items in their pockets, as well as bags? >If so, Pettigrew should still have his wand, because he was holding >it when he transformed 13 years ago. If clothes become part of the >animal, then James Potter could have stuffed baby Harry into a large >coat pocket, and then transformed. If Voldemort did not know that >James was an Animagus, he would not have been able to recognize and >kill him. > While I believe that animagi do retain their clothes and possessions when they transform (no cannon to prove this) I think keeping their wand in their pocket is very different then keeping a baby. It brings to mind all kinds of questions. How does Harry breathe? My other concerns are this: What happens to baby Harry's consciousness? Does he blend with James and if so how is James then able to transform back? What about everyday sort of issues like eating, etc. If James has to constantly transform and untransform to take care of baby Harry's needs it's not a very efficient disguise. So I didn't answer anything just raised more questions. Sorry :) Rosebeth _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From jmeec316 at aol.com Sun Jun 1 06:20:31 2003 From: jmeec316 at aol.com (Jaimee) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 06:20:31 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore...evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59086 Taylor wrote: > One of the hottest debates since GoF has been...you guessed it: Is > Dumbledore evil? I have tried to think of every possible solution to > this and this is my theory of what makes the most sense to me: > > As everyone has probably noticed the main theme in GoF is our choices > (as will it be for the remainder of the books JKR has stated) > Dumbledore mentions on at least two occasions that it matters not > what someone is born but what they grow to be and also; it is our > choices that shape who we are. Even way back in CoS Dumbledore says > to Harry that it was the choice that Harry made NOT to be in > Slytherin that set him apart from Voldemort. He also says that making > the right choice is not always making the easy choice. > > ....Annnnyways....getting on to my point of this post is that I > believe that Dumbledore was perhaps born into a Dark Family, maybe > even like the Malfoy's, gauging that he is around 150 this is quite > possible without knowing much detail from the books. I could see > Dumbledore being raised in a dark family much like little Draco yet > being sorted into Gryffindor; thus greatly dissapointing his Dark > family. He may have been molded to be next in line and may have even > started to pursue this before realising the Dark way is not the right > way. He could have made the very difficult descion (thus forth bring > the quote into understandable and personal terms: What is right is > not always the easiest choice...or something along those lines.). > This could continue to be a daily struggle for him, for being raised > in this Dark family he might still have doubts about the good side. > That though Dumbledore was once on the dark side he slowly came over > to the light (for reasons unknown to me) yet he still has to fight to > stay good. > > It even mentions in the books that Dumbledore knows a great deal of > dark magic (from his family?) but chooses not to use it. Perhaps > having the ability to perform dark magic and not using it could be a > struggle, this could also Snapes vindictivness. He was so far over in > the Dark Arts that he was a death eater, this could have been why he > finds it so hard to be cheerful (though I doubt being cheerful is in > his nature, yet all the same.) maybe the dark magic not being used > could cause and internal struggle that you constantly fight. This > could explain the "glint of triumph" because when Harry mentions that > Voldemort could now touch him, this was a bit of the dark magic deep > in his veins coming through. > > One last point to make is that this could be the reason that > Dumbledore was the only wizard that Voldemort ever feared: Because > Voldemort knew that Dumbledore was capable of the dark magics that > could match, or out weigh his own. Just some food for thought while > we wait for book 5. > > By the way I am new to this community. Sorry if this post was a > little uncomprehendable, I was typing as fast as I was thinking > because new points kept popping up in my head. > > Cheers- > Taylor Jaimee responds: Welcome Taylor! I just wanted to say that I love this theory! It has been one of my favorite of late :-) And it has made me wonder if maybe...just maybe...this is what Dumbledore sees in the Mirror of Erised! He sees his desire to use his skills in the Dark Arts--and maybe even for noble purposes! (and this is why he can't tell Harry what he sees...) Being a LOTR fan as well as a HP fan, this makes me want to add that this could be similar to Gandalf not wanting *The Ring* because, even though he would be powerful enough to wield it...and would want to do so for the greater good, it would ultimately corrupt him. Maybe the Dark Arts work similarly!?! Even if they are used with the best of intentions, they can taint the one who tries to wield the dark powers. Ohhhh...head spinning...and maybe that will have to be Harry's ultimate sacrifice. The only way he can bring about Voldemort's downfall is to use dark magic...which would taint Harry...and, in the end, Harry will have to turn over his wand to keep him from ever using Dark Magic again. Then again...that may be getting a little too carried away ;) -Jaimee, who has stopped smiling because, in contemplation, she tends to crinkle her nose and bite her bottom lip From ajlboston at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 06:29:16 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 06:29:16 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Gryffindor Keeper Issues (WAS: TBAY/SHIP: SHIP-Speak) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59087 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "portia288" wrote:> > "Well," said Portia, "We can't say that Ron is less than competent at > magic. Just compare him to Harry and the other kids. Ron can't turn > Scabbers yellow because he was using a dud spell that Fred and George > gave him. Waitaminite. I always thought of that scene as... Hermione: "Are you sure that's a real spell?" A.J.: "Yes, but it's not a REAL RAT!" --A.J. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 06:47:32 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 06:47:32 -0000 Subject: Portkey mystery? - incomplete lexicon information In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59088 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Linda" wrote: > Brief Chronicals wrote: > > > << ... Harry's Portkey at the end of GoF was a generic Portkey, that just allowed for travel back and forth > from one place to another at any old time. And the QWC Portkey was > designed to open only at *specific* times,... edited...>> > > Linda: > .... It makes a lot of sense. > ... attempting to prevent muggles from using the QWC portkey > accidentally, ... to keep wizards from accidentally activating > it as well. > First, ...portkeys for the QWC led to the same destination point. > Imagine the chaos if there was no time schedule...edited... > > Second, .... I would think that whenever there is an event that > calls for a group of people to use the same portkey, it would be > necessary for there to be a set time of activation. ..edited.. > > -Linda-just my two nuts Er... Linda? ...is the two NUTS (a peanut and a cashew) or is the two KNUTS (worth about 3 US-Cents). ;) Seriously, now I'm bad to my concept of sorting out what is possible and what is likely. I think you, Linda, and Brief Chronicals have explained Portkeys in the most likely way. As I've said before, I personally seen no contradiction between various methods of working Portkeys. At the Quidditch World Cup, they are trying to cordinate the arrival of 100,000 people. Simple logic say that operation would scheduled in the same manner as buses, trains, and planes. As Linda pointed out, the way the QWC Portkey worked was the only logical way under those circumstances. You have to schedule the arrive of a small group of people so logically ...well, you have to schedule it, and with equal logic, you can't have it touch activated or you'll never get the whole group transported, only the first person to touch it. Let's look at possible and what I consider likely ways in which a Portkey could be activated. Let's look at touch activated first. How and why would I want to do that? Personally, I look at it as akin to one of those automatic coffee pots that has you coffee ready when you get up in the morning. Before I go to bed, I set the Portkey on the kitchen counter, activate it, and go to bed. When I get up in the morning, I drink my coffee, eat my toast, then touch the Portkey and I'm on my way to work. Touch activation seems a very reasonable way to use a Portkey in everyday life. No need to go into time activation because the QWC is the perfect example of how and way you would use time-of-day scheduled Portkey activation. There is another method of time activation though, and that is not time-of-day, but time delay. Everybody touch the Portkey, and I will activate it with a 10 second delay. Ten seconds later, me and my family are on our way to Diagon Alley for ice cream. But I suspect the most common form of activation is immediate activation. Everyone grabs the Portkey, then I cast the enchantment to activate it, and my family and I are instantly on our way to Fortesque's for ice cream. - - - - - Now to one of my own pet theories. If Portkey are so flexible and convinient, why isn't everybody using them all the time? If what I say is true, the do seem very flexible. There aren't any problems with being underage or being to unskilled as with Apparating. Portkeys while still a wild ride, seem much safer, more stable, and certainly cleaner than Floo Power. Plus, they are convinient, you don't need a fire or fireplace, you can use them anywhere. So back to my original question, if Portkeys are so great why don't people use them all the time? Again, I can't tell you what is true, but as I apply my logic to what is LIKELY in my efforts to expand the wizard world beyond the boundaries defined in the book, I think it is very likely that the reason is that creating a Portkey is such a long difficult process that is becomes impractical for the average person to do it on a regular basis. Since we do not see Portkey is routine and frequent us in the wizard world, there has to be a reason why, and 'difficulty' seems the most likely reason. So, now I must speculate on what makes it so difficult. My conclusion is that it is a two stage process. The first stage is taking an object and making it capable of being a Portkey. This involves complex spells and potions, and a significant amount of time. The second stage is actually in two parts. The first part is programming the Portkey-ready object with it's destination(s). The second part is the activation of the Portkey, which as I pointed out can be time-of-day, time delay, or immediate. Programming would probably somewhat complex, but not as complex and time consuming as the first stage. Also, I suspect that the standard Portkey enchantment is not permanent. If the Weasley's and Diggory's had chosen not to go to the Quidditch match, after a period of time, the Portkey would have reverted back to nothing more than a boot. This is obvious in this example, because when the activation time of day passed, it would be unusable. What I am referring to though, is that after a period of time, the object would loss it's ability to be a Portkey. In theory, the MoM could recover that Portkey and reprogram it, if they did it soon enough. But if they delayed too long, it would lose it's enchantment, and they would have to start the Portkey creation process all over again. I'm guessing it takes close to a month to create, and last for about a week. Again, there is no way that I can say that this is true, but it seems a likely explaination of why Portkeys aren't used more often. It puts enough limitations on the process to make it difficult to use on a daily basis, but still leaves it sufficiently effective to be valuable in a situation like the World Cup. These same limitations also make the Portkey unsatisfactory for commerial development. It's too expensive to create what is essentially a 'throw away' product. That's why you don't see any Portkey stores anywhere. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 05:50:00 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 05:50:00 -0000 Subject: FILK: The Ballad Of Mrs. Norris Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59089 This filk is based on Tom Lehrer's "The Irish Ballad". The last word of the filk, "Fin," is French, and the asterisks are there to show that it should be italicized. This filk is dedicated to Caius Marcus, who inspired it with his call for filks to dramatize scenes from canon not yet the subject of any filk. It deals, of course, with the events in CoS surrounding the petrification of Mrs. Norris. The Ballad Of Mrs. Norris About a cat I'll sing a song, Sing Mrs. Norris is done in, About a cat I'll sing a song Who down the corridors prowled along And found out students who did wrong, To Argus Filch she turned them in, them in, To Argus filch she turned them in. One evening in a fit of pique, Sing Mrs. Norris is done in, One evening in a fit of pique, They found poor Nearly-Headless Nick. The Headless Hunt was a filthy clique, Who wouldn't let Nicholas in, -las in, Who wouldn't let Nicholas in. He said that it was his Deathday, Sing Mrs. Norris is done in, He said that it was his Deathday, And at his party they did stay. But the rotting food drove them away 'Cause they didn't know where it had been, had been, They didn't know where it had been. They tried to get back to their Feast, Sing Mrs. Norris is done in, They tried to get back to their Feast, Where everyone was not deceased, Harry heard the words of the Beast, Wanting to kill again, again, Wanting to kill again. They rushed so quickly up the stair, Sing Mrs. Norris is done in, They rushed so quickly up the stair, And found these words when they got there, "Enemies of the Heir, Beware!" And the sight filled them all with chagrin, chagrin, The sight filled them all with chagrin. Thereunder hung the Caretaker's pet, Sing Mrs. Norris is done in, Thereunder hung the Caretaker's pet, As stiff as a board could ever get. Old Argus Filch, he was quite upset, And wailed in a hideous din, -ous din, Wailed in a hideous din. And when the Headmaster came by, Sing Mrs. Norris is done in, And when the Headmaster came by, He said Mrs. Norris did not die. But was in a state of petrify, And still had some life there within, within, Still had some life there within. They took her to Hospital Wing, Sing Mrs. Norris is done in, They took her to Hospital Wing, Where Professor Sprout began to sing, Said Mandrake Root was the very thing. "It will cure her," she said with a grin, a grin, And now, as the French would say, *"Fin."* -Haggridd From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 08:51:22 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 08:51:22 -0000 Subject: Portkey mystery? - incomplete lexicon information In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59090 Steve wrote: My conclusion is that it is a two stage process. The first stage is taking an object and making it capable of being a Portkey. This involves complex spells and potions, and a significant amount of time. The second stage is actually in two parts. The first part is programming the Portkey-ready object with it's destination(s). The second part is the activation of the Portkey, which as I pointed out can be time-of-day, time delay, or immediate. Programming would probably somewhat complex, but not as complex and time consuming as the first stage. I, Tom, ask: Does this mean that your take on the Third Task is that the Triwizard Cup had been involved with some kind of preparatory stage prior to Crouch!Moody's transport of it to the maze? He admits, under Veritaserum, that he 'turned it into a Portkey' on the way from the Great Hall to the Third Task. So, if your theory is the case, the Cup had undergone some procedural charms in order to make it receptive to the directions Crouch!Moody would be giving it; because it doesn't seem like a long trek from the castle to the Quidditch Pitch. In other words, he'd have to be privy to a) the workings of the team planning the event, and b) the workings of Portkey magic. In that case, the directions-bit wouldn't take that much time, or be that complicated, if he could perform the spells en-route. So, what you're suggesting is a complicated preparatory step, followed by a simpler direction-giving spell which ordinary wizards can perform. To contrast with you a tad, I'd think that the fact that Crouch! Moody could perform this spell would indicate that the spell is accessible to a diverse population - after all, BCJ got out of Azkaban barely a year in advance of the moment when he'd have to perform the charm on the Cup. So, if he didn't know how to do this already, he'd have to have some kind of access to this information. I.e., it wouldn't appear to be as restrictive or controlled as, say, access to the Floo Network. So, based on his seeming ease with the procedure, I'd think that it's not too difficult to create a Portkey - maybe it's just that they're less convenient than we think they are, due to their time- specific properties. -Tom From lennyb2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 08:57:29 2003 From: lennyb2002 at yahoo.com (lennyb2002) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 08:57:29 -0000 Subject: A Horrible Thought About Possible Future Deaths Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59091 I have been off the list for awhile, so I apologize if it's been discussed... Well, it's horrible, absolutely horrible, so here goes: What if Molly Weasley is the horrible death for book five? There has been speculation that she is the new DADA teacher, and, if that's true, that's a VERY bad sign. Furthermore, wizzards have a supposedly longer life cycle. The Weasley parents have been speculated as old as 80-90 years, not that old compared to Dumbledore. But what's to say wizzards don't get cancer or have heart attacks? What made me think she could have a 'muggle' sort of health condition is that in GoF, Bill and Charlie Weasley seem to have returned to the Burrow and accompany her previously ordinary trips(to the train station, Hogwarts, and she does not attend QWC). It is a fairly common thing for children to move back/ closer to home when a relative has become sick in order to provide support. I get worried about Ron, Hagrid, or Dumbledore possibly being the 'awful death', but this one really hit me in the gut. She gets so little rest, no thanks, and beautifully holds the entire Weasley clan together. Molly has also essentially adopted Harry as ANOTHER child to nurture. Oh, she also fought against the evil of evils back in the day. JKR models characters on people in her life. She got the idea for Harry when.... Ugh, Hoping it's not Molly From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jun 1 13:39:20 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 1 Jun 2003 13:39:20 -0000 Subject: File - HPfGU.announcement-Nimbus.htm Message-ID: <1054474760.23059587.8002.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59092 An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maryblue67 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 14:40:19 2003 From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 07:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: portkey mistery In-Reply-To: <1054472815.2322.8015.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030601144019.50837.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59093 bboy_mn concluded: Again, there is no way that I can say that this is true, but it seems a likely explaination of why Portkeys aren't used more often. It puts enough limitations on the process to make it difficult to use on a daily basis, but still leaves it sufficiently effective to be valuable in a situation like the World Cup. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Me,Maria, adds: I like your justification on why portkeys are not used more often. I also started thinking about how it fits with the alternatives for traveling in the WW. For instance, let us go back to the QWC. Those who are proficient appareting can do so in a predefined area in the forest. Apparating we know is something hard, but once you are proficient it must be something very practical. You can do indoors or outdoors, except perhaps for very large distances. But if you can't, the alternatives are floo powder, broomsticks and portkeys (and flying carpets, but they are banned). If you don't have a fireplace, ie if you're outdoors, then the portkey seems the best deal. It might be harder to program/enchant than floo, but that can be done by a capable witch or wizard, but still have the portkey used by a minor, a squib or anyone who can't make that spell. Broomsticks are also available, but i guess they take longer time to travel (do we know what is the speed they can reach?) and they are not a family vehicle (like the carpet), plus so many people flying on broomsticks could be seen by muggles. So i think portkeys are less difficult than apparating, but also less practical if you can apparate, but useful as it can be used by someone else than the person who enchants it. Maria, who is liking this explanations more and more ===== Maryblue ---------------------------------------------------------- "Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love" - Eistein __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jun 1 15:02:06 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 1 Jun 2003 15:02:06 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1054479726.25.75405.m10@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59094 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, June 1, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CDT (GMT-05:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. *Chat times are not changing for Daylight Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From koticzka at wp.pl Sun Jun 1 15:52:52 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 17:52:52 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lockhart's attitude/ Hermione's place Message-ID: <000801c32856$6e00a3a0$d75863d9@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 59095 ABOUT LOCKHART? innermurk wrote: >>Now, do I believe he was a double agent? NO. However, until the end of COS we didn't know that for sure. We don't know what Snape's role is in all this. We won't know until JKR reveals it to us. So,...I say there IS a double standard here. You don't like Lockhart, and so we won't be seeing many *Lockhart is a brilliant agent for the forces of good, but that particular brilliant plan got thwarted when he was blasted with Ron's wand* theories but we will see many *Snape is a double agent and he's working for the good side and that's why DD trusts him* theories. I think everyone got hooked up on the example I provided but failed to seehat I was really trying to say. Hopefully, it's clear as mud now :) << ***Koticzka's comment: I liked the example you gave and did not have doubts about the message you intended by it. I have them now. Still considering the same possibility with the pixies - do you suggest that Snape would do things like leaving kids with the creatures? It would perfectly present his malice, but he would be too careful with student's clamsiness to let them to deal with pixies. I may be going much too far with my considerations again. What did seem strange to me was that Lockhart appeared so careless about displaying his blatant ignorance about spells. He's supposed to be an expert in DADA, and he's busy playing to the crowd?! Dumbledore employing him may be explained by the apparent lack of candidates. The headmaster could hope that Lockhart could at least tell some fact based stories - assuming that it is Dumbledore who chooses "the cast"... Or maybe Lockhart is really, deeply, truly - a complete, blatant, arrogant, blind, self-absorbed... IDIOT. ABOUT HERMIONE? Mhochberg at aol.com wrote: >>I don't know about a workaholic but I will grant knowledgeaholic. My thinking goes like this: If Hermione is the smartest student in the school, why isn't she in Ravenclaw? She is in Gryffindor because of her bravery (or her choice to be brave). Does that mean that she is braver than she is smart? And considering how smart she is, what does that say about her bravery? And where will this lead in books 6 & 7?<< ***Koticzka's answer: That is the point - who is Hermione? Is she a brave and very wise Gryffindor, or is she a Ravenclaw put by the Sorting Hat into Gryffindor House for a purpose? That was my suggestion (but not only mine, as I read later messages). >From the very beginning, I had many doubts about her bravery. However, The Hat might have more knowledge and certainly much more experience than I do (and in the end, it is up to JKR anyway ;-) ) . The girl becomes more and more eager to break rules and take risks because of the boys' influence - as Ron said (it may only be in the movie, I do not know). Although she came up with some of her own hazardous ideas What would she be like in other circumstances? Nobody knows. If Hermione's main feature is the hunger for knowledge, saying that she was destined to be a Gryffindor because of her bravery denies the bravery of Ravenclaws. Looking at Hermione's behavior and respect for school rules it is hard to say she is "more brave than wise and clever", isn't it? So perhaps it is not her bravery but other features that landed her in Gryffindor? Or maybe it was the Sorting Hat Emergency Policy (SHEP??? ;-) )? Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 1 16:41:36 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 16:41:36 -0000 Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59096 Ebony asked: >--are there any aspects or characters in the Harry Potter books that >creep you out? so tepmurt answered: >I guess, though, that the person that scares me the most is Fudge. >It's not an "I'm scared of him" type of feeling, but more of an "I'm >scared of what he'll do." At least with Voldemort I've got some >sense of direction... Ooo. I like that. Voldemort we do not fear as much because we know what he wants and know where he is going. Fudge is a loose cannon that could slip away nicely into the background or become a *serious* problem and mess everything up. One of my friends on the site feels the same way about Ginny, whom I defend also as fiercely as I defend certain appliances. She thinks Ginny is a liability to Harry and could really be a threat to him without intending to. To counter that, I said I feared Hermione the most. At first, I was some what joking because my friends likens herself to Hermione, like most women on this site...and a few men, but once I really started thinking about it, I realized I do fear Hermione the most. First off, she can lie so coolly and with any hint of it. Think of her lie in the girl's bathroom with the troll. Being able to lie without even a hint of what you are doing is a dangerous trait to have in your arsenal. I always thought Melanie in Gone With the Wind was rather eirry for her ability to have the power of making people believe whatever she said. It is a huge power to possess, and Hermione has set up the base to use this power. Then she takes charge with the polyjuice in CoS and once she set her mind, she *was* going to do it no matter how flaky Harry and Ron felt about it. She wanted to see if she could do the potion. I think that is why she was not open to any other suggestions. Really, if they did get a confession, what were they going to do then? Go tell a teacher? Then the teacher would have called Draco and Draco would have denied it. Then the trio would be asked how they knew, then they would say they used an dangerous potion, that they should not even be able to brew, to sneak into the Slytherin's common room on the hope that Draco was as bad as they thought him to be? Hermione was dead set on brewing that potion to see if she could. If she had thought beyond it, or Harry and Ron for that matter, they would have realized it was a fruitless plan with more problems. But Hermione did prove to herself that she is all that and can brew potions beyond her age group's ability. Then there is the whole house elf misunderstanding. Even though the elves do not want it, she still believes she is right and will not listen to anyone that disagrees with her. She does not even listen to the elves. She just assumes, because she was born a muggle and nothing should be enslaved in the muggle world, that the same should hold true in the wizard world and with magical creatures. House elves are not humans, and yet Hermione treats them as if they are. Hermione, once she has a strong reaction, does not waver from it no matter how many try to show her she could be wrong. But the reason I fear Hermione the most is because of her actions with Rita Skeeter in GoF. That is down right obsessive. Once Hermione decided to go after Rita, she did not stop until she has her. The worse case of this is when Hermione captures her. At the moment when she does capture the Beetle!Rita, Hermione *should* have been worried about her best friend Harry. Instead, that stupid reporter is still on her little obsessed mind and Hermione is looking around for her. She is so engaged in looking for Rita that when she find her, Hermione was overjoyed and slammed her hand around the beetle interrupting a deep, loving hug which her best friend needed. Hermione was too into finding Rita that she forgot what was more important. Then we have Hermione's famous imprisoning of Beetle!Rita. Hmm, she has problems with the enslavement of house elves, but she does not mind holding a transfigured human in a glass jar with a leaf to eat until *she* chooses to let them go. Hermione was even showing off her trophy to Harry and Ron in the train. Hermione finally went to far and that is what scares me. Once she gets an idea in her head, she is unstoppable and foolish. If she is ever caught, she *will* be greatly punished. She is playing with the big boys now, and she will get in under her head and when she does, poor Harry will have to save her and then he might fail and then... I just fear Hermione the most. She is a girl with tremendous potential, very knowledgeable, and internally driven. But she also is deaf to good advice, obsessive with her goals, and does not think her actions in full. Melody From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Jun 1 18:14:34 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 19:14:34 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Release date/hopes/money References: <1054438281.3212.22479.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003101c32869$a7d2e800$737d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 59097 Snowwy wrote: >I just assumed the Saturday idea was for work/school >too. But the more I thought about it The Solstice is >the only point in the year where the light equals the >dark and the days ahead are more light than dark. I >think it has something to do with it. I think you're thinking of the spring equinox rather than the summer solstice there! The solstice is when the light is at its greatest and the days ahead see the dark increasing... quoth Mel > Will I get in huge trouble if I just yell real loud DITTO!!!!! > I couldn't have said it better myself. I want a nice, tight, finely > tuned like PoA page turner. I think I skimmed half of GoF. I was also > disappointed by the GLARING wand order error. That was not just > rushed writing--it was rushed editing as well. My own fond wish is that the new book won't include any spell, potion, or other plot device that will have everyone asking "Why didn't so and so use that when zzz happened in book x?"! sgrifenodd Catlady: > see how it could be arranged. According to JKR, the Quill writes the > name of each magical child born in Britain in a book when it is born > and once a year McGonagall consults the books and addresses Hogwarts > I like the idea that the Quill identifies the detected children by > addressing the letters that McGonagall was going to give to the owls > to deliver, because that would cut out an intermediary -- quills are > MEANT to write. Otoh, my multi-campus theory has place for an > intermediary -- after the Quill lists the children in order of > their magical power, so that the top 280 can go to Hogwarts Castle > and the others can go to the other campus(es), someone adjusts the > sequence so that the children of old wizarding families or families > with wizarding political pull get raised to the top 280 and others > get lower to make room for them. I think that the concept of the Quill has _many_ problems, some of which you've indicated, sufficiently many to suggest that it's not a safe part of canon. Another problem might be: what if the proposed student just didn't want to go? My own parents offered to send me to a boarding school when I was that age, but I turned it down (no particular reason, just didn't fancy it). Also, who decides which students in the WW go to Hogwarts, and which don't? We can surmise that all the muggle-borns get an invite, because they really _need_ it to make sure that they can survive in the WW (also JKR has said that the proportion is 25% which is far higher than it can be in the general wizarding population, otherwise there would be so much muggle influence coming that the WW culture would have ceased to exist long since). Also, if the Quill lists in order of magical power, what about the Hogwarts students who are neither (apparently) Old Magic not particularly bright (Crabbe and Goyle jump to mind, even if Neville isn't a good example). Maybe an invite goes to those whose wizardry _isn't_ particularly powerful, just to make sure that they get the best tuition possible to make use of what they have, with the remainder of the places made up by those who are there for the prestige. Makes Hogwarts sound a little bit like a sink comprehensive, I know, with a high proportion of remedial and immigrant children! > If not, had they invented magical means of reproducing books one at > a time? Such as enchanting an existing book so that it splits (like > cellular mitosis) into two identical clones, or so it gives birth to > an identical baby book? Or enchanting a quill so that it writes the > copy of the existing book while the human does something else more > enjoyable and less causative of writers' cramp? I'm sure they do have some sort of multiplication. Possibly the source of the mediaeval ecclesiastical theory of "miraculous multiplication", which was used to "explain" why there were entire forest loads of "pieces of the True Cross" being sold all over Europe! Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun Jun 1 13:08:24 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 09:08:24 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sympathy for Voldemort? Message-ID: <4f.2f9e3e4a.2c0b54c8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59098 In a message dated 5/31/2003 5:17:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, patricia at obscure.org writes: > Actually, serial killers are frequently imprisoned or put to death here in > the US. The standards for legal insanity vary from state to state, but in > no state does the mere fact that someone committed murder, even > repeatedly, mean that that person is necessarily insane and thus exempt > from incarceration or execution. In most states, I believe the applicable standard for determining legal (as opposed to actual - they're two different concepts) insanity is the "M'Naughton Rule", which asks not whether the perp believes the action he took was wrong, but rather whether s/he knew that SOCIETY AS A WHOLE believes the action to be wrong. It's why David Berkowitz, Mark David Chapman, & Charlie Manson & his Family are all wearing prison uniforms. Clearly, Voldie & the Death Eaters are well aware that society considers what they do to be heinous - therefore, they are legally sane by US standards - anyone care to weigh in on how it's done in the UK? Sherrie (19? years employee, DOC) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun Jun 1 13:16:12 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 09:16:12 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Portkey mystery? - incomplete lexicon information Message-ID: <173.1b0e7715.2c0b569c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59099 In a message dated 5/31/2003 5:46:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yellows at aol.com writes: > I decided to tell myself that Harry's Portkey at the end of GoF was a > generic Portkey, that just allowed for travel back and forth from one place to > another at any old time. And the QWC Portkey was designed to open only at > *specific* times, to prevent Muggles from stumbling across them and being > transported. If a QWC Portkey opens only at one moment, the chance of Muggles being > transported by accident is cut dramatically. > My thought was that the World Cup Portkeys were like public transportation - set to run on a predetermined timetable, & unavailable before or after that time. The Cup, though was more like a private car - with no time restrictions, it could be activated at any time. Moreover, I think it was spelled to be SPECIFIC for Harry - it wouldn't activate unless Harry touched it. Sherrie (who didn't have any difficulty with this at all) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From marugg at fibertel.com.ar Sun Jun 1 17:56:24 2003 From: marugg at fibertel.com.ar (Marugg) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 14:56:24 -0300 Subject: The Knight Bus Message-ID: <029e01c32867$1e3f18e0$c006e818@fibertel.com.ar> No: HPFGUIDX 59100 Everytime I reread PoA I come across a passage which I don't understand completely ( or at all). My question is : what or who makes the Knight Bus appear at Magnolia Crescent? Quoting Stan : "you did flag us down, dincha? Stcuk out your wand and dincha?" "Yes, said Harry quickly. But, he does never call the Bus, it just appears when he was trying to discover what(Sirius) was hiding between the fence and the garage. Then his leg hits his trunk, he trips, he loses his wand and this is the exact moment when the Knight Bus appears, almost running Harry over. SO my question remains the same : who calls the Knight Bus? Mariana ( who is not a native speaker and would like you all to excuse her for her grammar and spelling mistakes) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Sun Jun 1 18:01:20 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 18:01:20 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR as Butler; James' Blood Status; Mea Culpa on Wagga Wagga; Werewolf Cure Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59101 >Maria: >Wagga Wagga is a rather large town some 160 km from Canberra. The name must >be in one of the many languages of Australia. I read somewhere that it >means >'place of many crows'. > Indeed - I've heard that as well. I've driven through Wagga Wagga a number of times and stopped for gas there - I can confirm it is, in fact, a real place. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From yellows at aol.com Sun Jun 1 18:09:29 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 14:09:29 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] A Horrible Thought About Possible Future Deaths Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59102 In a message dated 6/1/2003 6:57:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, lennyb2002 at yahoo.com writes: > I get worried about Ron, Hagrid, or Dumbledore possibly being > the 'awful death', but this one really hit me in the gut. She gets so > little rest, no thanks, and beautifully holds the entire Weasley clan > together. Molly has also essentially adopted Harry as ANOTHER child > to nurture. Oh, she also fought against the evil of evils back in the > day. That would be terrible, I agree. But I sincerely hope that's not it. The Weasleys are Harry's foster family, and the Weasley home is Harry's safe place. It was painful enough when Ron and Harry weren't speaking. I think it would be a real blow to the charm of the series if Mrs. Weasley were to die. I know I probably sound like a real wuss here , but I think killing Mrs. Weasley off is just going too far. I hope JK Rowling didn't choose her for the awful death. With all of the things Harry goes through, it's comforting to remember that he's got *someone* who loves him and can take care of him, however infrequently she's available to him. The Harry Potter books take us through many trials, but we need some comforting moments, too, or else it's just all pain. That's why I think Dumbledore must go. That will be a horrible thing for Harry, and it will be the loss of another father-figure, but Harry needs to have the torch passed on to him so *he* can be the wizard Voldemort fears most. Who will be the father-figure for Harry after that? Mr. Weasley. :) And, when Harry marries Ginny and Hermione marries Ron, they'll all be one big, happy, Weasley/Potter family. :) Aw. Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Sun Jun 1 18:23:46 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 18:23:46 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: [Snapefans] The Old Snape Loves Lily Theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59103 Amanda and Koinonia were speaking: > > > (1)Would Snape still love Lily? Why? They never had a relationship. > > They were in their early teens. Snape is now in his 30's. Lily is > > dead. She has been dead for many, many years. After all these years > > Snape couldn't get a life? Will he ever? What is he living for? Has > > he never even looked at another woman? > >Well, for one, I have known a couple of people who had one great love. For >whatever reason, they were now alone. They chose to not pursue another. > >It is a current American cultural thing, I think, to cast "having a life" >in >terms of having romantic/sexual relationships. But it *is* possible to have >a completely full life without that. Snape *has* a life. He is a very >involved administrator of Hogwarts. From the tangential references we have >seen, he seems to have a good working relationship with the other teachers >(staffroom scene; McGongall's references to what sound, like me, to Snape >digging her about Quidditch, which to me says they have a friendly >professional rivalry). He enjoys the solid trust and respect of a man he, >himself, solidly respects (Dumbledore). And he knows he has a significant >part to play in upcoming Voldemort-troubles. Where's a lack of life? > Let me say that I *completely* agree with Amanda here about the general underlying principle. "having a life" does not mean "having somebody, just anybody". It's entirely possible that Snape only ever loved Lily. I think that that may be due more to what happened with the DeathEaters and that whole mysterious time there than any lack of desire for "a life", though. I believe that Snape *cannot* leave Hogwarts because only there is he under Dumbledore's protection. Note that he never turns up in Diagon Alley over the school break, although it stands to reason he might need ingredients that he could purchase there; nor does he seem to go into Hogsmeade (one of my friends pointed out his venture to the Shrieking Shack as a possible violation, but we think that since the SS was taken over for the use of Lupin, perhaps protection is extended there as well, and it still counts as "part of Hogwarts" - or just that Snape was so overwhelmed by a chance for discovery and/or revenge that he took a very stupid risk). I think that Snape's "life", such as it was, was far more destroyed by his association with the DEs and then his break from them than necessarily being in love with Lily. (And I am someone who thinks that his weird attitude about Harry and James is due to the fact that he was in love with Lily, that she was the love of his life - yes, some people do meet the love of their life really young and don't realize until later that that was the greatest love and the best match they would experience for any one of a number of reasons - and moreover that he feels that Lily's death was needless and due to her being with James, and that he could have saved her had she been with him [re: all the discussion about Voldemort trying to get Lily to move out of the way - the implication is that her death was needless].) But consider what kind of "prospect" Snape would be to any woman in the WW, even if he could leave: what makes you think that a witch from either "side" wouldn't hesitate about getting involved with him because they either wouldn't be sure where he stood, or feared his past association with Voldemort? There are some practical reasons at work here, guys, which do guide older relationships. Snape is not presented as a very appealing fellow, either. But the thing about "having a life": some of the people I know who least have a life do have a spouse or boyfriend. Having a life is much more about having a three-dimensional existence with friends, meaningful work, interests and passions, and perhaps a relationship than just a romantic/sexual partnership alone. > > (2)Did Snape ask Voldemort to spare any other person? How about > > James? Some believe Snape is the spy who told Dumbledore that > > Voldemort was after the Potters. Is Snape the kind of person who > > would stand by and let James and Harry be killed but beg for the life > > of Lily? > >Probably. From my reading of his character, he is also practical. He had a >cover to maintain, and he also probably knew that there was *zero* chance >that Voldemort would spare James, but a possibility that he'd spare Lily. >Spies have to make the best of the situations they have. > I agree: Snape is practical. He might have figured that saving Lily was worth it - better just two lives lost than one. Remember, he couldn't know in advance that Harry would live: that was a colossal surprise to everyone. > > Would Dumbledore trust a man who only seemed to > > care if Lily lived? > >See above. Snape may have had no choice, or have known that there was no >hope. And Dumbledore trusts a man who would have given Sirius to the >dementors. > I think Dumbledore would trust a man who tried to save what he could. Think of officers in the military who have to make decisions about sacrificing three men to save 80. They're considered highly trustworthy if they are dedicated to achieving the mission no matter the cost in lives. And the WW is in very little less than a war situation during Voldemort's lifetime. >I have noted that Dumbledore seems to allow life situations--unfairness, >etc.--to occur and be learning experiences at Hogwarts, as well as the >curriculum. This is not something that American schools allow (or something >they try to weed out). Personally, I think that letting children grow up >with the expectation that things are supposed to be fair and they're >guaranteed a level playing field is a massive disservice to them. So >Dumbledore may indeed have known Snape's failings and hired him anyway. >These children will have to deal with unreasonable people in the future; >may >as well start now, while they're children. > If anyone else besides me reads British boarding school books (a subgenre of juvenile literature, and one in which I would not hesitate to classify HP), they will be struck at how the subculture of the children is pretty much allowed to run itself. Wilting violets are not encouraged, nor are kids encouraged to run whining to mommy and daddy with every squabble or feeling that the teacher or prefect wasn't fair; they are very empowered compared with the way American children are depicted, and indeed act (I've never cared for much American juvenile literature of modern times which seems little better than propaganda aimed at how important it is to run to mommy and daddy with every problem, and they will wisely solve it - there are just some lives and families where the parents are *not* a reliable resource, or don't know all the answers), and are expected to largely solve their own interpersonal troubles. coddled children are discouraged. > > There are just so many posibilites. I just don't want to see Snape as > > a person who just can't get over a woman he never had. I would like > > him to be much stronger than that. > >Interesting. I see that *as* strength, that he can be faithful to a love >given over time and through life. I don't see it as failing to "get over," >I >see it as a strong enough character to be true. > Same here, Amanda. It actually takes a lot of strength to not just grab someone else because they're a warm body. >As I said above, American culture tends to put romantic/sexual concerns >first on the list. Not everyone does that, it's not the "normal" way to >look >at things, it's simply one way. Plenty of people devote their lives to one >other person, or one faith, or one ideal, which leaves no room for anything >else in their lives. I don't see anything weak about it at all. > I agree. The American culture is very dilettantish and "disposable", including about relationships; and that tends to discourage any kind of depth or meaning. As Lila Wallace, the wife of the founding editor of "Reader's Digest" once put it, "If you can live without a [wo]man, then why live with him [her]?" I personally have very old-fashioned values about this, and so Snape being that devoted to Lily rings true. There might be some other overlying things to the psychology as well (not to mention the other issues about Snape himself above that I outlined - I think that failing to evaluate Snape as a probably not veyr appealing partner is a serious oversight): the feeling that he couldn't save Lily through all his best efforts, and that he would just damage, doom or destroy another woman, perhaps. Thanks, Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From yellows at aol.com Sun Jun 1 18:26:06 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 14:26:06 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House Elves (was What HP Character Scares You Most?) Message-ID: <131.1f53025f.2c0b9f3e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59104 In a message dated 6/1/2003 12:42:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, Melody writes: < elves do not want it, she still believes she is right and will not > listen to anyone that disagrees with her. She does not even listen to > the elves. She just assumes, because she was born a muggle and > nothing should be enslaved in the muggle world, that the same should > hold true in the wizard world and with magical creatures. House elves > are not humans, and yet Hermione treats them as if they are. > Hermione, once she has a strong reaction, does not waver from it no > matter how many try to show her she could be wrong.>> I know you were writing about your Hermione fears, but this brought up another question for me. What *is* right for the house elves? It seems that, under Dumbledore's employ, they are welcome to whatever they like. When Dobby requested pay and time off, Dumbledore offered more than Dobby wanted. So, I can assume that the other house elves would be welcome to the same if they asked for it. But, under the employ of someone like Malfoy, or maybe even Crouch, the conditions seem less tolerable. Yes, I'm a Muggle, so maybe I'm trying to impose my Muggle-beliefs on the house elves just like Hermione does, but it simply *can't* be right to kick your servants around and treat them like dirt the way Malfoy did Dobby. Could their reluctance to be freed go back to some cultural restriction that was placed on them, perhaps by wizards, long ago? Maybe it's a legend made up for them: "Once upon a time, there was a NAUGHTY little house elf. He didn't love and adore his master. So he got FREED. See how NAUGHTY he was?" Or maybe it's a spell a wizard put on them all. Whatever it is, what if, because of that restriction, house elves do their best to work all the time and never be freed, lest they are looked down upon by others in their community? Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 1 18:49:33 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 18:49:33 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: OOP Spoiler policy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59105 Greetings from Hexquarters! As we all count down the days until the release of OoP, the Administration Team has been huddled at Hexquarters, all of the entrances securely bolted and towels stuffed under the cracks beneath the doors. Nothing, we vowed, must disturb our careful deliberations and detailed preparations for This Blessed Event. Finally, the Admin Team have something to show for their hard work. We have decided how we will handle the issue of spoilers for the OoP release. Our view is that anyone who comes to a HP discussion group around the release of OoP really should expect to encounter spoilers. Lots and lots of spoilers. For that reason, we have decided *not* to require list members to use spoiler space at all. Instead, we are introducing a new prefix for subject headers, which will give members fair warning that the post contains OoP spoilers. Beginning today, we would like members to use the "OOP" prefix for any post to any of our lists that contains spoilers for OoP. Subject headers should not, of course, contain spoilers themselves -- "OOP: Sirius Dies At Azkaban!" rather defeats the point of the OoP prefix. For example, an appropriate subject header might be, "OOP: Harry, Sirius." Harry and Sirius are so interconnected in previous books that this isn't a spoiler. "OOP: Harry, Lupin" on the other hand, *would* be a spoiler, as we don't know whether Lupin is in Book 5. "OOP: Lupin" would be better (as for all we know, you might be posting on why Lupin isn't in the book). Remember that a subject header which has *both* a chapter number and a subject is in itself a spoiler. 'OOP: Chapter 32 - Sirius' tells readers that Sirius turns up in Chapter 32. For a reader only on Chapter 7, where Harry is worried about his godfather, that's a spoiler. If you want to discuss a particular chapter, use chapter numbers *only*. 'OOP: Chapter 32' is fine. Please begin using the new "OOP" prefix on all of our lists -- especially the main list and OT-Chatter -- beginning today. And remember, if you have any comments about any OoP release issues, holler at us at: hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com "The truth." Dumbledore sighed. "It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution." [PS/SS Chapter 17] Be like Dumbledore. Tell people as little as possible. ;-) Counting down to June 21st The Administration Team From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jun 1 19:09:23 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 19:09:23 -0000 Subject: possible Molly death/family broomstick/Idiot Lockhart/Hogwarts Quill, etc Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59106 Lennyb2002 wrote: << What if Molly Weasley is the horrible death for book five? (snip) But what's to say wizzards don't get cancer or have heart attacks? What made me think she could have a 'muggle' sort of health condition is that in GoF, Bill and Charlie Weasley seem to have returned to the Burrow and accompany her previously ordinary trips(to the train station, Hogwarts, and she does not attend QWC). It is a fairly common thing for children to move back/ closer to home when a relative has become sick in order to provide support. >> Molly Weasley *could* (please, JKR, no!) be the "horrible death" for book five, but there is no reason to expect her to die of a Muggle condition. The usual speculation is that Bill and Charlie returned to the Burrow to attend the QWC, a big event, and then accompanied *Harry* everywhere to help guard him from returning Voldemort loyalists. They went to the QWC with Harry, not shopping on Diagon Alley with Molly, which could be either that they were already guarding Harry before the Death Eater riot at QWC or co-incidence, but is not likely that they had returned home to spend every last possible minute with their sick mother. Maria maryblue67 wrote: << [Broomsticks] are not a family vehicle (like the carpet) >> One of the QWC pre-game ads on the scoreboard was: "The Bluebottle: A Broom for All the Family -- safe, reliable and with In-built Anti-Burglar Buzzer". That gave me the idea that it was the mini-van of broomsticks, for the whole family (and their groceries) to ride at once. Altho' I suppose they could have meant that it's safe and slow enough to let the kids borrow it. Koticzka wrote: << What did seem strange to me was that Lockhart appeared so careless about displaying his blatant ignorance about spells. >> Example of Lockhart's more-than-careless display of his ignorance: --Lockhart: "It was definitely a curse that killed her - probably the Transmogrifian Torture - I've seen it used many times, so unlucky I wasn't there, I know the very countercurse that would have saved her ...... " --Dumbledore: "She's not dead, Argus, she has been Petrified," --Lockhart: "Ah! I thought so!" Why didn't he think someone might notice that he had just blatantly contradicted himself? --Dumbledore: " I will have a potion made that will revive Mrs. Norris." --Lockhart: "I'll make it, I must have done it a hundred times. I could whip up a Mandrake Restorative Draught in my sleep -" Why wasn't he afraid that if they did allow him to make the potion, someone would notice that it was a bungled mess? It almost seems as if he believes his own hype, until they find him packing to leave. Does he *want* those closer to him than a book shop autograph session to think him a harmless idiot? Fred manawydan wrote: << Also, who decides which students in the WW go to Hogwarts, and which don't? (snip) Also, if the Quill lists in order of magical power, what about the Hogwarts students who are neither (apparently) Old Magic not particularly bright (Crabbe and Goyle jump to mind, even if Neville isn't a good example). >> I believe that all the magic children, whether Muggle-born or wizarding born, get an invite to Hogwarts. That would be 1000 kids at Hogwarts, as JKR stated in an interview, to account for a wizarding population around 20,000, to maintain the wizarding economy that we have seen. My multi-campus theory explains how there can be 1000 kids at Hogwarts like JKR said and only 280 at Hogwarts Castle as we have seen in the books. I say, Hogwarts at the castle is the original and most prestigeous campus of the Hogwarts systems and is called just "Hogwarts" like UC Berkeley is called just "Cal". There are two or three other campuses. If one of them is Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry at Woodhenge, it is colloquially called just "Woodhenge". This is where the Quill listing the children in order of magical power and the wizarding official making adjustments comes in. The top 280 go to the Castle, the next 280 go to Woodhenge, the remainder go to Fuzzybunny. The human adjustments are to make sure that children of fine old wizarding families and wizarding families with political influence get raised on the list. I believe young Crabbe and Goyle fall into both those favored categories: I believe they are descended from old, Dark, stupid, wizarding families AND Lucius Malfoy pulled for his son's friends and his friends' sons as well as for his own son. Neville MIGHT have been adjusted upward out of pity for his well-known (to the older generation) tragic situation and the popularity of his "late" parents. (By the way, I don't think in order of magic power and in order of intelligence are the same. There could be very intelligent kids with low power and very powerful kids wiwh low intelligence.) I believe that the high proportion of Muggle-born students in current classes of the Hogwarts system is a demographic blip that should go away after Ginny's year. (An on-going high proportion of Muggle-born students at Hogwarts Castle could indicate that the Muggle-born tend to have stronger magical powers.) Here is something I posted long ago: In my theory, the inheritance of magic is partly genetic and partly magical. I suggest that in general, there are a whole bunch of pairs of recessive genes that usually combine to make a person magical. How many of these pairs a person is double-recessive for, and which ones, would influence or control how strong their magic power is, and what forms of magic they are most talented at. But I also suggest that there is also a Magic that keeps the total number of wizarding people constant. When a wizard or witch dies, their magic goes to the next suitable child born in their area. Suitability would be a combination of the genes and of being surrounded by magic at the time. (A fetus in a witch's womb is the most possible surrounded by magic! So the child of a witch and a Muggle is almost as likely to be magic as the child of a witch and a wizard.) The longer the magic goes searching for a suitable host, the geographically wider an area it searches, and also it becomes less picky about suitabilty, such as choosing Muggle-born children who at least have SOME of the right genes, even tho' there is no magic around them at all. This theory also explains Squibs, as children of a wizard and a witch who were born at a moment when more wizarding babies were being born than wizarding folk were dying. THEREFORE, if two Squibs marry, their children would have the right genes, and if the Squib couple lived (unhappily and in poverty) in the wizarding world, their children would have been somewhat surrounded by magic, and therefore children of Squibs who remain in the wizarding world are likely to be non-Squib. Squibs who move to the Muggle world, make a life there and marry a Muggle, would probably have children who were Muggles, but with the genes to be very attractive to magic looking for a Muggle-born person to reside in. This theory also implies that there would be more Muggle-borns than usual during The Bad Years. That would be an ironic result of Voldemort's attempt to eliminate Muggle-borns! But, as you said, more wizarding folk than usual were dying during The Bad Years, because of all the murders, and fewer were being born than usual, because of parents reluctant to bring children into such a dreadful world. Thus, quite a number of witches and wizards died with no wizarding child being born at their death-time, so their magic went looking for a Muggle-born host. Thus, more 'Mudbloods'. That could explain why wizarding folk from Bill Weasley's age on down are more familiar with Muggle things than their parents are, and take it for granted to wear Muggle-style clothes: they learned it from their classmates. A further implication is that a post-Harry Potter Day wizarding baby boom may have resulted in an epidemic of Squibs. (My notion is that the 'normal' number of Squibs is one per generation. To me, Kwikspel was aimed at low-power wizards rather than at Squibs.) From susannahlm at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 19:24:15 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 19:24:15 -0000 Subject: Even More Likely Meaning of OOP (Not written by Derannimer) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59107 [Note: This isn't me. I'm letting a friend of mine use my account. I screened him, and he's not going to flame anyone. Hope I'm not breaking some species of rule. -- Derannimer] In response to Ethanol's post -- 54146 -- I have formed this brief idea: it's true that the titles of previous books have all represented problems for Harry, but it's hard to see how something so pure as the phoenix could be one of Harry's problems. If Harry is the heir of Gryffindor -- as possibly predicted by Professor Trelawney -- the OOP could have been formed to in some way protect Harry, as the possible bringer of Voldemort's complete and total downfall, from harm. -- Tatumper From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 19:58:34 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 19:58:34 -0000 Subject: Portkey mystery? - incomplete lexicon information In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59108 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: > Steve wrote: > My conclusion is that it is a two > stage process. The first stage is > taking an object and making it > capable of being a Portkey. > ..edited.... The second stage is > programming the Portkey-ready > object ...(and) activation of > the Portkey, ... > > > I, Tom, ask: > Does this mean that your take on the Third Task is that the > Triwizard Cup had been involved with some kind of preparatory stage > prior to Crouch!Moody's transport of it to the maze? > > He admits, under Veritaserum, that he 'turned it into a Portkey' on > the way from the Great Hall to the Third Task. bboy_mn: Keep in mind what my goal is, I'm creating a Portkey theory that tries to explain why Portkeys aren't the preferred method of transportion in the wizard world. Portkeys certainly have every advantage over all the other forms of wizard transportation we have hear about. [note: I'm not giving much weight to the Knight Bus, which is pretty cool. Right now I'm focusing on transportation controlled by individual wizards.] Brooms - slow even at 150 mph, windy and cold, and with limited capacity. (Although, I have solved the capacity problem, but that's another story.) Apparation - Mr Weasley tells us that Apparation is dangerous and difficult, and that many wizards prefer brooms. Why brooms? Certainly a Portkey has many advantages over a broom. The first and most obvious is that it can be any object; a watch, your shoes, a hat; common, convinient, compact, portable, and easily stored objects. If you can do it, Apparation would certainly be the preferred method, but it has the additional drawback of not allowing you to transport your whole family. Floo Powder - seems to be the preferred method, but it's difficult, or at least, it seems difficult to me. It appears that you are in the Floo stream with other people and run the risk of bumping into people and object; remember, 'keep your elbows tucked in'. It has limited reliability as Harry found out. It's dirty, it require a fire and/or a fireplace, you have to be connected to the Floo network, and you have to keep buying more powered. Certainly Floo is the closest in function to Portkey, but it is certainly not as convinient, flexible, or easy to use as a Portkey. So, to your question, in order for my theory to remain consistent, I have to subscribe to the popular belief that the Tri-Wizard's Cup was already a Portkey programmed to take the winner out of the center of the maze and to it's entrance. That does seem to be Harry's final destination, the entrance to the maze. I have to believe it is logical that they would want to get the winner out of the maze right away, so that he could be awarded his points and if he was the overal winner, be presented with the trophy and the prize money. It seems an unreasonable delay to expect everyone to walk back out of the maze. Of course, there are other options for getting people out like brooms, but a Portkey Tri-Wizard's Cup seems fast, efficient, and somewhat dramatic. Regarding Fake!Moody's comment that he 'turned it into a Portkey', let's remember that someone under the influence of truth serum doesn't speak in ABSOLUTE truth. They speak in GENERAL truth. Speech patterns, figures of speech, common phrases, local speech idioms and regional dialets, and colloquialism would all come into play. A speaker of Hip-Hop Blacklish would not suddenly change to speaking perfect Kings English just because he took truth serum. So, I take Fake!Moody's statement to mean that he performed a Portkey spell on the cup before or as he took it into the maze. That doesn't make his statement a lie, it makes it generalized truth. The Q & A under the truth serum is not seeking to find the absolute truth amd minute details of his enchanting of the Portkey, but is seeking a broader more general truth about his actions and motivation over the period of several months. > > To contrast with you a tad, I'd think that the fact that Crouch! > Moody could perform this spell would indicate that the spell is > accessible to a diverse population - ...(snip Barty Jr knowledge of > portkey spell).... So, if he didn't know how to do this > already, he'd have to have some kind of access to this information. > > ...edited... > > So, based on his seeming ease with the procedure, I'd think that > it's not too difficult to create a Portkey - maybe it's just that > they're less convenient than we think they are, due to their time- > specific properties. > > -Tom bboy_mn: Well, since this is my own personal theory, I get to twist the logic and properties in anyway that suits me. Anyone can look up the incantation in a spell book, but as we've seen from examples like the death curse, and the Partonus charm (as well as many other), it takes more than words to make a charm work. I think the programming spell is somewhat difficult and a little tedious, so I think it takes an above average wizard (both intelligence and magic ability) with a degree of ambition and patience to do it. Let me digress slightly and ask you all how many of your VCR's are flashing 12:00... 12:00... 12:00...? A lot, I think. Certainly we can all get out the manual for the VCR and go through the steps to set it, but how many of us do? I suspect the only people with their VCR clock set, are the people who regularly record. The rest of us have plenty of clocks around the house, and don't really care what the VCR dial says. Point? I think the programming phase is tedious, boring, diffcult, and time consuming to the extent that many wizards don't have the patience to mess with it. It's certainly do-able, but tedious. Certainly if you are rich, you can have your servanst constantly brewing up Portkey-ready object, and have the servants enchant them on an as needed basis. I also suspect the Crouch Jr coming from a reasonably well off home, might have take an interest in Portkeys when he was young because it would give him a degree of independance that other less fortunate kids wouldn't have. Crouch seems like he could afford to have others deal with the tedious parts of Portkeys while he just enjoyed the benefits. I also think that Barty Jr has demonstrated that he is far above average and a very powerfull wizard. (I've also solved the time consuming, tedious, boring programming part as well as other portkey drawbacks, but that again, is another story not suitable for this forum.) When I encounter problems like this, I don't ask, 'why doesn't that work?', I ask, 'what is a reasonably likely way that I can make that work?'. While I have no truth, absolute or general, to back up what I say, it seems reasonably likely. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 20:30:51 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 20:30:51 -0000 Subject: The Knight Bus In-Reply-To: <029e01c32867$1e3f18e0$c006e818@fibertel.com.ar> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59109 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marugg" wrote: > > .... My question is : what or who makes the Knight Bus appear at Magnolia Crescent? .... > > ... (Harry) does never call the Bus, ... his leg hits his trunk, he trips, he loses his wand and this is the exact moment when the Knight Bus appears, almost running Harry over. SO my question remains the same : who called the Knight Bus? > > Mariana bboy_mn: Well, you don't realize it but you answered your own question. When Harry trips and falls over, he extends his arm dropping his wand. So in extending his arm as he fell, he extended his wand hand, and the Knight Bus took that as a signal that Harry was flagging them down. He did it by accident. Just a thought. bboy_mn From salsal19 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 19:10:21 2003 From: salsal19 at yahoo.com (Sally Unchester) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 12:10:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hopes for Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030601191021.93251.qmail@web80502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59110 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chuck" wrote: > The book is later than was planned. Let's hope that means quality > control was turned up a notch. OK here is my opinion. The date for book five was pushed back due to the "rumored" fact that JK had to REWRITE a chapter and then rewrote a lot more. The "rumor" that I had heard was that she had brought one of the dead characters back without realizing it ( it's possible, Cedric Diggory died in the final moments of book four so maybe she forgot he died (of course,that IS nearly impossible cuz his death was a HUGE part of book four and you can't possibly forget he died but who knows?) ...or just wanted it to look more like a JK twist!) Then, she changed her mind and re-wrote it to make it stronger. My guess is this....many of us, Americans any way, picture writers as sitting in some dark cubby and writing but never come to think that perhaps they are lurking around somewhere nearby (JK could've been taking notes when she was in the U.S. or even just randomly in grocery stores or things in England). Some of her ideas may have come about that way. After the release date was announced, JK seemed very proud of it so I think that it's going to be amazing with a LOT of unexpected things in it....we'll see in less than 21 days! -Sally "Lockhart's memory charm backfired, he hasn't got a clue who he is!"-Ron Weasley Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From salsal19 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 19:22:21 2003 From: salsal19 at yahoo.com (Sally Unchester) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 12:22:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] re:possible Molly death/family broomstick/Idiot Lockhart/Hogwarts Quill, etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030601192221.99246.qmail@web80507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59111 Lennyb2002 wrote: What if Molly Weasley is the unexpected death in book Five? If Molly Weasley is the death in book five, that would leave many readers unhappy. Personally, I hope it is Uncle Vernon or Aunt Petunia. JK DID say they were going to play a larger role in the book! Perhaps, since the actor that played Professor Dumbledore just recently died, she decided that it was time for Professor Dumbledore to die (he HAS been alive 150 years and perhaps someone like McGonagall would take over. Although,perhaps it is Molly Weasley because the Weasley's would put their lives on the line for Harry (Ron in SS, Ginny in CoS). Maybe the "old crowd" will start with the "mudbloods" though so perhaps it is Hermione or one of her muggle parents.....we won't know until book five and that's quite soon so I can sit on my hands spitting out ideas but only know on June 21st when my mouth drops in awe as to whom it is....I just hope it's not Ron or Hermione.....so that's my opinion. -Sally "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: Lennyb2002 wrote: But what's to say wizzards don't get cancer or have heart attacks? What made me think she could have a 'muggle' sort of health condition is that in GoF, Bill and Charlie Weasley seem to have returned to the Burrow and accompany her previously ordinary trips(to the train station, Hogwarts, and she does not attend QWC). It is a fairly common thing for children to move back/ closer to home when a relative has become sick in order to provide support. >> Molly Weasley *could* (please, JKR, no!) be the "horrible death" for book five, but there is no reason to expect her to die of a Muggle condition. The usual speculation is that Bill and Charlie returned to the Burrow to attend the QWC, a big event, and then accompanied *Harry* everywhere to help guard him from returning Voldemort loyalists. They went to the QWC with Harry, not shopping on Diagon Alley with Molly, which could be either that they were already guarding Harry before the Death Eater riot at QWC or co-incidence, but is not likely that they had returned home to spend every last possible minute with their sick mother. Maria maryblue67 wrote: << [Broomsticks] are not a family vehicle (like the carpet) >> One of the QWC pre-game ads on the scoreboard was: "The Bluebottle: A Broom for All the Family -- safe, reliable and with In-built Anti-Burglar Buzzer". That gave me the idea that it was the mini-van of broomsticks, for the whole family (and their groceries) to ride at once. Altho' I suppose they could have meant that it's safe and slow enough to let the kids borrow it. Koticzka wrote: << What did seem strange to me was that Lockhart appeared so careless about displaying his blatant ignorance about spells. >> Example of Lockhart's more-than-careless display of his ignorance: --Lockhart: "It was definitely a curse that killed her - probably the Transmogrifian Torture - I've seen it used many times, so unlucky I wasn't there, I know the very countercurse that would have saved her ...... " --Dumbledore: "She's not dead, Argus, she has been Petrified," --Lockhart: "Ah! I thought so!" Why didn't he think someone might notice that he had just blatantly contradicted himself? --Dumbledore: " I will have a potion made that will revive Mrs. Norris." --Lockhart: "I'll make it, I must have done it a hundred times. I could whip up a Mandrake Restorative Draught in my sleep -" Why wasn't he afraid that if they did allow him to make the potion, someone would notice that it was a bungled mess? It almost seems as if he believes his own hype, until they find him packing to leave. Does he *want* those closer to him than a book shop autograph session to think him a harmless idiot? Fred manawydan wrote: << Also, who decides which students in the WW go to Hogwarts, and which don't? (snip) Also, if the Quill lists in order of magical power, what about the Hogwarts students who are neither (apparently) Old Magic not particularly bright (Crabbe and Goyle jump to mind, even if Neville isn't a good example). >> I believe that all the magic children, whether Muggle-born or wizarding born, get an invite to Hogwarts. That would be 1000 kids at Hogwarts, as JKR stated in an interview, to account for a wizarding population around 20,000, to maintain the wizarding economy that we have seen. My multi-campus theory explains how there can be 1000 kids at Hogwarts like JKR said and only 280 at Hogwarts Castle as we have seen in the books. I say, Hogwarts at the castle is the original and most prestigeous campus of the Hogwarts systems and is called just "Hogwarts" like UC Berkeley is called just "Cal". There are two or three other campuses. If one of them is Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry at Woodhenge, it is colloquially called just "Woodhenge". This is where the Quill listing the children in order of magical power and the wizarding official making adjustments comes in. The top 280 go to the Castle, the next 280 go to Woodhenge, the remainder go to Fuzzybunny. The human adjustments are to make sure that children of fine old wizarding families and wizarding families with political influence get raised on the list. I believe young Crabbe and Goyle fall into both those favored categories: I believe they are descended from old, Dark, stupid, wizarding families AND Lucius Malfoy pulled for his son's friends and his friends' sons as well as for his own son. Neville MIGHT have been adjusted upward out of pity for his well-known (to the older generation) tragic situation and the popularity of his "late" parents. (By the way, I don't think in order of magic power and in order of intelligence are the same. There could be very intelligent kids with low power and very powerful kids wiwh low intelligence.) I believe that the high proportion of Muggle-born students in current classes of the Hogwarts system is a demographic blip that should go away after Ginny's year. (An on-going high proportion of Muggle-born students at Hogwarts Castle could indicate that the Muggle-born tend to have stronger magical powers.) Here is something I posted long ago: In my theory, the inheritance of magic is partly genetic and partly magical. I suggest that in general, there are a whole bunch of pairs of recessive genes that usually combine to make a person magical. How many of these pairs a person is double-recessive for, and which ones, would influence or control how strong their magic power is, and what forms of magic they are most talented at. But I also suggest that there is also a Magic that keeps the total number of wizarding people constant. When a wizard or witch dies, their magic goes to the next suitable child born in their area. Suitability would be a combination of the genes and of being surrounded by magic at the time. (A fetus in a witch's womb is the most possible surrounded by magic! So the child of a witch and a Muggle is almost as likely to be magic as the child of a witch and a wizard.) The longer the magic goes searching for a suitable host, the geographically wider an area it searches, and also it becomes less picky about suitabilty, such as choosing Muggle-born children who at least have SOME of the right genes, even tho' there is no magic around them at all. This theory also explains Squibs, as children of a wizard and a witch who were born at a moment when more wizarding babies were being born than wizarding folk were dying. THEREFORE, if two Squibs marry, their children would have the right genes, and if the Squib couple lived (unhappily and in poverty) in the wizarding world, their children would have been somewhat surrounded by magic, and therefore children of Squibs who remain in the wizarding world are likely to be non-Squib. Squibs who move to the Muggle world, make a life there and marry a Muggle, would probably have children who were Muggles, but with the genes to be very attractive to magic looking for a Muggle-born person to reside in. This theory also implies that there would be more Muggle-borns than usual during The Bad Years. That would be an ironic result of Voldemort's attempt to eliminate Muggle-borns! But, as you said, more wizarding folk than usual were dying during The Bad Years, because of all the murders, and fewer were being born than usual, because of parents reluctant to bring children into such a dreadful world. Thus, quite a number of witches and wizards died with no wizarding child being born at their death-time, so their magic went looking for a Muggle-born host. Thus, more 'Mudbloods'. That could explain why wizarding folk from Bill Weasley's age on down are more familiar with Muggle things than their parents are, and take it for granted to wear Muggle-style clothes: they learned it from their classmates. A further implication is that a post-Harry Potter Day wizarding baby boom may have resulted in an epidemic of Squibs. (My notion is that the 'normal' number of Squibs is one per generation. To me, Kwikspel was aimed at low-power wizards rather than at Squibs.) "Sally" Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rhaberfield at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 1 20:11:36 2003 From: rhaberfield at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?robert=20haberfield?=) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 21:11:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Knight Bus In-Reply-To: <029e01c32867$1e3f18e0$c006e818@fibertel.com.ar> Message-ID: <20030601201136.46246.qmail@web41904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59112 Marugg wrote: Everytime I reread PoA I come across a passage which I don't understand completely ( or at all). My question is : what or who makes the Knight Bus appear at Magnolia Crescent? Quoting Stan : "you did flag us down, dincha? Stcuk out your wand and dincha?" "Yes, said Harry quickly. But, he does never call the Bus, it just appears when he was trying to discover what(Sirius) was hiding between the fence and the garage. Then his leg hits his trunk, he trips, he loses his wand and this is the exact moment when the Knight Bus appears, almost running Harry over. SO my question remains the same : who calls the Knight Bus? Mariana IMHO It can not be just the act of sticking out your wand hand that calls the Knight Bus. The WW must want/need transport for the bus to appear. So Harry did call the KB even though he never knew it existed. Robert (the old) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yellows at aol.com Sun Jun 1 18:33:57 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 14:33:57 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Portkey mystery? - incomplete lexicon information Message-ID: <1ec.9f8b287.2c0ba115@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59113 In a message dated 6/1/2003 2:27:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, Sherrie writes: < > could be activated at any time. Moreover, I think it was spelled to be > SPECIFIC for Harry - it wouldn't activate unless Harry touched it. >> > Blast -- where is my book??? Okay, I agree with your metaphors for the QWC Portkey and the Tournament Cup Portkey (public transportation and private car), but I disagree with only this one point. I believe it says somewhere in GoF -- when Dumbledore speaks to Crouch Jr? -- that great lengths were taken to ensure that Harry reached the cup first. This means, as I understand, that if Cedric had taken the cup when he deserved it, Cedric would have ended up in the graveyard alone. Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From julia_yatsenko at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 1 18:41:23 2003 From: julia_yatsenko at yahoo.co.uk (julia_yatsenko) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 18:41:23 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts letters, wizarding shopping, and Money issues (was: Money issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59114 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > According to JKR, the Quill writes the > name of each magical child born in Britain in a book when it is born > and once a year McGonagall consults the books and addresses Hogwarts > letters to each of this year's crop. Well and what about muggle-born people who were born in some other country and then moved to England? Will they get a letter? Or will the Quill write them in that very moment when they enter GB-grounds? And if the child was born in Britain and then moved to another country, will his/her name be deleted??? What do you, guys, think about that? "Julia" From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 20:50:48 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 20:50:48 -0000 Subject: The Knight Bus In-Reply-To: <20030601201136.46246.qmail@web41904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59115 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, robert haberfield wrote: > > > Marugg wrote: > > My question is : what or who > makes the Knight Bus appear at > Magnolia Crescent? > > Mariana > > > IMHO It can not be just the act of sticking out your wand hand that calls the Knight Bus. The WW must want/need transport for the bus to appear. So Harry did call the KB even though he never knew it existed. > > Robert (the old) bboy_mn: Oh.... I like this idea. How many time in his life has Harry extended his right hand (his wand hand) and the Knight Bus never suddenly appeared? Loads of times... hundreds of times a day. Harry had a need, a desparate urgent need, it was that need coupled with accidently extending his wand hand that called the Knight Bus; emergency transportation for stranded wizards. His desparate need allowed him to call a source of aid that he didn't even know existed. Magic is sooo cool. Brilliant thinking, Robert (Sir Robert of Old, good knight of the round table. So, Sir Robert of Old, would you last name perhaps be Young? (HUMOR)). Just a thought. bboy_mn From orlaquirke2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 21:54:01 2003 From: orlaquirke2002 at yahoo.com (Anna Hemmant) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 21:54:01 -0000 Subject: Hopes for Book 5 In-Reply-To: <20030601191021.93251.qmail@web80502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59116 Before I get called holier than thou for what I am about to say about JKR's writing skills, I want to admit that when I first heard that the date had been set, I was happy that we finally had one, and I knew that it was going to take a while to edit, but I still thought 'that long away? That's ages' Terrible I know, but anyway. I've lurked and read with amazement at what some people have said about JKR's skill at writing, or allusions to it in this thread. I know you've all got valid points about the various things that you don't want to see, but don't you trust JKR? I do. I trust that if she does use something that we all feel now has been flogged to within an inch of it's life now, then she's a good enough author that it won't seem contrived. And it's not just the tight plots that I love her books for; it's the language she uses, her sentance structure, the way she expresses herself; it's delicious. So since we're all actually here, and we spend so long each day talking and mulling over what has happened and will happen, I think you should all know in you're hearts that whatever the new book brings, it'll be a wonderful read and we'll all hate anything that makes us put it down, and we'll be saddened when we come to the ned of it, for it will be at least another year before we get to read anything of the caliber again. I hope that; We get some sort of satisfaction in the Hermione/Ron thing Harry finds someone special We get to see more of Sirius and Lupin That the person who dies is not one of the three That Harry's quidditch Captain (He does deserve it; he's the most focused on the team) The time until the 21st goes at triple speed, and will hurry up and get here already! Anna From editor at texas.net Sun Jun 1 22:09:54 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 17:09:54 -0500 Subject: *Fears* for Book 5 Message-ID: <002401c3288a$88cdea60$a704a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 59117 Possibly a reflection of my basically pessimistic nature, I have more fears than hopes for Book 5. These are: Snape will turn out to be a vampire. Snape will (for a while) honestly betray Dumbledore. Lupin will turn out to be ever so evil. Snape will kill someone. Dumbledore will die. or Hagrid will die. Winky will cause major trouble. Sirius will injure Snape. Snape will injure Sirius. Lupin will bite someone; am afraid of it being Harry, Ron, or Hermione. I'm sure there's more, but those are the ones that bubble to the top. ~Amanda --------------------- Those who cannot hear the music, think the dancers daft. From karenoc1 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 23:26:35 2003 From: karenoc1 at yahoo.com (karenoc1) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 23:26:35 -0000 Subject: Portkey mystery? - incomplete lexicon information In-Reply-To: <1ec.9f8b287.2c0ba115@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59118 Sherrie writes: The Cup, though was more like a private car - with no time restrictions, it could be activated at any time. Moreover, I think it was spelled to be SPECIFIC for Harry - it wouldn't activate unless Harry touched it. >> And yellows/Brief Chronicles writes: I believe it says somewhere in GoF -- when Dumbledore speaks to Crouch Jr? -- that great lengths were taken to ensure that Harry reached the cup first. This means, as I understand, that if Cedric had taken the cup when he deserved it, Cedric would have ended up in the graveyard alone.>> Now karenoc1 writes: I think Sherrie has something when she considers that the World Cup Portkeys were treated in a different manner than typical Portkeys, but *not* that they operated in a different manner as Brief Chronicles points out above. My memory is flagging, and I do not have my copy of Goblet of Fire handy, but.... I seem to remember that Mr. Weasley and company handed over their Portkey to the World Cup officials when they arrived at the Cup's venue. (Or did I just assume that because they did not use the same Portkey to return?) Anyway, if they did hand it over, then wouldn't it be reasonable to suppose that the Portkey that they used for their trip to the Cup could have been used to return them to their starting point? Remember, there was quite a lot of confusion due to the Death Eaters and the Dark Mark when they left. So the presiding officials may not have been as efficient as they normally would be and created Portkeys in a more willy-nilly fashion to send people on their ways! Has this been mentioned? If so, I apologize! karenoc1 From amani at charter.net Sun Jun 1 23:45:14 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 19:45:14 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Transfiguration Question References: <721BCB25.47B299E2.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: <001e01c32897$d9642ea0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59119 freddie_mac1 at yahoo.com: > When I think about transfiguration, I have a sense that the > outer form is changed, but not necessarily the > inner/intrinsic aspects. If you change a ferret into a > human-shaped ferret, does the ferret gain human senses, > reasoning, soul (for lack of a better term), or is the > ferret simply reshaped into a human-like shape? Brief Chronicles: That's interesting. I have no specific canon lines to cite, but I've always felt that transfiguration only changes the outer appearance. Of course, changing Malfoy into a ferret, though you never get a word from Malfoy about the thoughts that went through his mind as a ferret, you do get the impression that he's still Draco inside that body, and he's not an animal at all. Me: Here's some canon on that subject, but it goes against your theory: "No spell yet devised enables wizards to fly unaided in human form. Those few Animagi who transform into winged creatures may enjoy flight, but they are a rarity. The witch or wizard who finds him- or herself transfigured into a bat may take to the air, but, HAVING A BAT'S BRAIN, they are sure to forget where they want to go the moment they take flight." [QTTA pg. 1, US Hardback, emphasis mine] Brief Chronicles: Also, when McGonagall is a cat the very first time we ever meet her, we see her eyeing Privet Drive, waiting for Dumbledore to appear. She doesn't behave like a normal cat; she's much more attentive and focused on her task of waiting for news of Harry Potter instead of chasing random bugs on the ground or rolling around in the grass. (not to imply that I think cats aren't intelligent -- I love cats) :) Me: But Animagi transformation is different process than transfiguration. A wand is not required, the wizard retains his/her mental capacities (although Sirius does say that his emotions were simpler when in dog form, allowing him to slip by the Dementors), etc. Transfiguring an animal to a human is a different question. Can wizards even /do/ that? I'd be inclined to think that the animal would not have human mental and emotional capabilities. Say you have a ball, and that's human or animal awareness/mental capabilities/whatever you wish to call it. If you put this ball in a room and collapsed the walls together, you could squeeze the ball into a smaller form, hence what happens when a human is transfigured into an animal. But when you make the room huge, that ball isn't going to get any bigger than it's original form. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Sun Jun 1 23:56:07 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 19:56:07 EDT Subject: House Elves Message-ID: <138.20777087.2c0bec97@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59120 Brief Chronicles writes: >>Could their reluctance to be freed go back to some cultural restriction that was placed on them, perhaps by wizards, long ago? << More likely that their existence depends to some degree upon being bound to a specific place. They are earth spirits of a sort, after all. The problem is that the traditional house spirits in Muggle folklore were rarely seen by the families they "served" and while they were bound by their nature to serve their own place, their service to the family which lives in "their" place is entirely secondary to their service to the physical house and land. And if the family left, the elf was still bound to the place and remained for the next family. Among wizards, the situation is more complex since the wizards can see the Elfs and command them to serve the family rather than the house. The wizard has the power to "free" the Elf from his existence. It isn't, as Muggles are inclined to view it, a reward. I think that Dobby had been abused to the point of being what qualifies as suicidal in Elf terms. Being forced to serve the Malfoys was worse than the slow death of possibly not being able to find a new place. In Elf terms he is still clearly deranged because he wants paying, but he is also obviously clever enough to have twigged to the fact that what a human pays for they tend to value more than what they get for free. Dumbledore allowed him to bind himself to Hogwarts and pays him enough to allow him to keep some degree of independence. He will be able to unbind himselrf and leave to another "place" if he chooses. Which makes him a bad influence by traditional Elf standards. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jun 2 02:05:26 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 02:05:26 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts letters (was: H letters, wizarding shopping, and Money issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59121 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "julia_yatsenko" wrote: > Well and what about muggle-born people who were born in some other > country and then moved to England? Will they get a letter? Or will > the Quill write them in that very moment when they enter GB- > grounds? > And if the child was born in Britain and then moved to another > country, will his/her name be deleted??? My preferred solution is that the Quill writes the names of next year's students when it is time to address the letters to them, not (despite what JKR said) when they're born. But if the names are listed at birth, that would be a problem only for the Muggle-born and/or Muggle-raised. Parents who are wizards and witches would know that their children need to be educated, and would know that there are wizarding schools. If they received a letter from the school of the country they had left, they could choose to send their child to school back in the old country or they could write back explaining that they've moved and asking to be referred to the school in the new country. If they know to which school they want to send their child (the school in the new country, a school in some third country e.g. Durmstrang), maybe they could write directly to that school without having to ask for a referral. But not all wizarding schools invite Muggle-born students, so the child of immigrant Muggle parents might not get a letter, and therefore wouldn't have a *clue* that there are wizarding schools and she ought to ask to be referred to Hogwarts. Even if she did get a letter from a wizarding school in the old country, even if her parents believed it, she might think her only choices were that school or nothing, not that she could ask for a referral to something closer. Parents would NOT want to send their child back to a country that they were refugees from -- too dangerous. From metal_tiara at hotmail.com Mon Jun 2 02:38:48 2003 From: metal_tiara at hotmail.com (sophineclaire) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 02:38:48 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts letters, wizarding shopping, and Money issues (was: Money issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59122 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > > manawydan at n... writes: > > > I not only can't see Dumbledore going along with that, but I don't > see how it could be arranged. According to JKR, the Quill writes the > name of each magical child born in Britain in a book when it is born > and once a year McGonagall consults the books and addresses Hogwarts > letters to each of this year's crop. >What about a magic child who was born overseas while its British > Muggle parents were on holiday or working overseas for just a few > years? I have a theory. Whether the parents are muggle or not, if a child was born in a country that was not in the school district that the country(ies) of their parents citizenship(s) were, they can get a letter to attend schools in thoses districts or all districts were citizenship applies. If a child lives in another country (for a significant amount of time) that is not in the school district that country of their parent's citizenship or the country of their birth were locates, again, they can receive letters from the school of that district also. I think language skills are an important part as to whether students get a letter to such and such a school. Considering what we have seen in the Beauxbaton student scenes in GOF, it appears that they communicate to each other in French and I'm making the assumption that many of their classes are taught in French while the spells still remain JKR's form of Latin. I know we hear Drumstrang students speak english, but would that have anything to do with KarKaroff possibly being a little 'encouraging' in that direction. I'm not saying that knowing French, german, etc will get a student a letter from schools in those districts, it depends first on if their parents have citizenship and whether the student lived in those areas. Then language comes into play. While Draco may be bragging, I'm sure that if his father could pull the appropriate strings, Draco would have to learn one of the primary languages that are spoken at Drumstrang for possible government approval. (Assumption based on Lexicon article regarding Drumstrang) -SophineClaire From ivanova at idcnet.com Mon Jun 2 03:04:32 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 22:04:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another Dementor question References: Message-ID: <004301c328b3$b1a05e40$19cdaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 59123 Susan wrote: > Did anyone else get the impression that the dementors were somehow > targeting Harry? The first one he sees, on the train, tries to enter > the compartment that Harry is in. Then on the quidditch field they > are all standing in the middle of the field looking up at Harry. Why > would they not be roaming around among the screaming, excited fans, > soaking up all that emotion? And then finally, at the lake, Harry, > Hermione, and Sirius are all there and incapacitated, but Harry is > the one the dementor reaches for and almost kisses. Am I reading too > much into this? I don't think you are at all. This is my take on it as well. Remember, DD says the dementors will quickly rejoin Voldemort at the end of GoF. IIRC, they were said to be working with Voldemort during the last war as well. If this is the case, they may know of Harry, either from Voldemort or from the DE's in Azkaban. On the train, they did go and check through every compartment, but when they came to Harry's, they somehow recognized him and went for him. Ever since that moment in the train, they keep finding opportunities to target Harry. The explanation for the dementors showing up at the Quidditch game that you give above and was given in the book may have been given so Harry wouldn't be scared that the dementors are targeting him specifically. I don't have access to PoA, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Hagrid that came up with that explanation? Perhaps Hagrid didn't know that the dementors were targeting Harry, so came up with that explanation based on what he knew of them. Or maybe he did know (perhaps from his time in Azkaban?) and was protecting him from this knowledge. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Mon Jun 2 03:20:03 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 23:20:03 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] *Fears* for Book 5 Message-ID: <9c.31d6823e.2c0c1c63@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59124 In a message dated 6/1/03 6:15:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, editor at texas.net writes: > I'm sure there's more, but those are the ones that bubble to the top. > Some of my fears to add: -Rita Skeeter and what she's going to do to Hermione. The whole "capturing her and keeping her in a jar" thing is *not* one of Hermione's best ideas I'm afraid. -What Hermione will do to protect her friends. Melody's post (59096 - completely brilliant BTW) showed some faults of Hermione. She could go too far. -Hagrid and his "I-shouldn't-have-told-you-thats". -Snape truly being evil. -*All* Slytherins being evil (and thus proving Darrin right and me wrong ^_^ ). -The Marauder's Map falling into the wrong hands. -Snape will die. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ "Panic as a last resort." - Mrs. Fallon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ivanova at idcnet.com Mon Jun 2 03:28:04 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 22:28:04 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's successor References: Message-ID: <006301c328b6$fad33350$19cdaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 59125 > Mel: > Goodness! It wouldn't be a coup! "Make his move"? McGonnogal IS > deputy Head and she took over in CoS with the distinct impression > that the situation was temporary (from how I understood it). That, > however was a very, very different situation to actually having > Dumbledore DEAD and absolutely not coming back. In that case the > succession, I believe, would be decided by the governors. It is > certainly possible that they'd just slide her in as Headmistress, > they do seem rather--wanting of spine. But we're talking about tricky > times here, Having someone like Snape in charge would have its > advantages. We don't know how the governors would act, really. > I just see Snape as pro-active while MgG is re-active. What would the > governors be looking for? Dunno. You're supposing in this that the governors are willing to admit that the times are tricky. They could believe Fudge and think that Voldemort's return is just a rumor. In that case, why would they feel the need to install Snape as Headmaster? They'd just give it to McGonagall and be done with it. On the other hand, if they do realize and admit the truth, then the choice for Headmaster might be a little more heated and McGonagall wouldn't be the shoo-in for the position. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Jun 2 04:01:11 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 04:01:11 -0000 Subject: A Harry Failure (was: Re: Harry's Sacrifice. / Sorting and Character Traits) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59126 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drmm_fuuko" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" > >When Padfoot dragged Ron into > the > > Whomping Willow, I am not surprised he and Hermione didn't go for > help > > -- they were afraid there wasn't time... > > It's not surprising that they didn't go for help but it was an > impulse decision and I think it would have been a better idea to go > for help, as Hermione suggested. As I said, if they had, Sirius could > have been set free. Annemehr: I do agree with you that Harry doesn't always do the *wisest* thing in a given situation; I just don't put it down to arrogance. DrMM: > Ahhh, but he did lose a Quidditch match to Cedric. However, a failure > at Quidditch would be quite trivial ... a death would make a bigger > impression. Annemehr: I don't count this as an "outright" loss, since Harry really lost to the Dementors (he apparently had *much* worse memories than Cedric did -- there isn't even any indication that Cedric had even *noticed* the dementors until after he caught the Snitch). It would be a much different thing if he would lose on pure Quidditch skills. Sure, at this point (post GoF) it wouldn't be much of a big deal, but it would have made a bigger impression earlier on -- to him, and certainly to many of us, who don't really want to see him as the One Who Never Fails At Anything. And, you know, he might actually *have* lost to Cedric, as Wood had to call his attention to Cedric bearing down on the Snitch, but we'll never know what would have happened because the dementors showed up and stopped Harry. Annemehr catching up after camping all weekend with Girl Scouts "This isn't a Girl Scout Camp," said Mr. Sir. -- Louis Sacher From ArachneWebbstir at hotmail.com Mon Jun 2 03:50:55 2003 From: ArachneWebbstir at hotmail.com (Arachne Webbstir) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 03:50:55 +0000 Subject: Wands, Writing, Sir Cadogan, and Poetry (an essay?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59127 I'm not sure if the following could be classified as an essay, OT Chatter, or what. All I know is that it's my first attenpt to post on the HPFGU book forum. Advice from your staff what to "do" with it would be welcome! Poetry is a form of transfiguration. Using metaphors, one thing can be turned into something else quite different, like "the sun *is* a yellow flower", or "a flower *is* a sun". Wands are very like pens or pencils that can work word "magic". In Rowling's wizarding world, the former implements have a core like the ink or lead running through the middle of the latter. The care and forethought needed when writing with quills and ink may teach young wizards and witches to also practice care in using magic. ( Look at the messes Muggles can get into by sending hasty e-mails!) In interview quoted in biography by Mark Shapiro, J.K. ROWLING: THE WIZARD BEHIND HARRY POTTER, page 86, Rowling said, although she could now afford a computer, she still prefered writing longhand on paper (at least before she wrote 700-plus page GOBLET OF FIRE). Charms class "swish and flick" motions resemble those loosening exercises for pen and ink calligraphy that I recall from classroom days long before children pecked at a computer keyboard instead of learning "penmanship". A poet (a term that includes writers of poetic prose) could be defined as someone who makes connections that most other people don't--but once demonstrated, can be seen by many. Sir Cadogan (the "painted" knight who guides 3rd year Ron, Harry, and Hermione to Sibyll Trelawney's tower classroom) has been linked to the White Knight in ALICE THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS. But has anyone also tied him to CADOGAN GUIDE TO SCOTLAND? That travel book guided me to Transfiguration Professor McGonagall's namesake, who it calls "Scotland's worst poet"--although he's quoted a lot in its pages anyway! I later found other HP researchers made the link between poet and professor, although apparently through other resources. By the way, double checking my spelling just now reminds me of Hagrid's saying he couldn't "spell" Voldemort--could Rowling have intended a double meaning in that remark? A relative of mine wrote hundreds of poems and songs (not in English, so I won't quote any), as well as playing nine musical instruments and being a chess master and surveyor. (Sounds like a Chocolate Frog biography, but it's true.) Perhaps I share some of his way of seeing unusual likenesses, also known as similes and metaphors. A writer whose book earned favorable remarks in LE MONDE newspaper--something not easy to do-- said images/verses I wrote, before I knew of my relative's work, was a true poem. If others feel I possess poetic perception, I hope to share more of my thoughts (insights?) on Rowling's work in the near future. Thanks for reading my first post on the HP forum, ARANITA WEBBSTIR _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca Mon Jun 2 02:47:04 2003 From: strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca (strawberryshaunie) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 02:47:04 -0000 Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59128 I'm really intregued by most of what you had to say about Hermione, though I have to say I disagree with you. One thing; what would have happened to Harry if she (Hermione) had ignored Skeeter that night in the hospital wing? If the story had leaked out through Rita's twisted columns, we can be almost certain that life at Hogwarts would have become unbelievably difficult (I think Harry has enough to worry about, what with Voldemort on the rise...). Hermione did what she needed to do to help her friend. She may have the potential for danger, like anyone else, but you are forgetting one thing that she has that many witches/wizards lack: Loyalty. -Shaunie, age 16 From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Mon Jun 2 01:57:46 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 01:57:46 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Question of Plumbing.... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59129 >In my short time in the fandom, I have seen this question of the >plumbing come up over and over again in regards to the Chamber. Hogwarts >was founded, what, 1000 years ago? Didn't the Romans have fairly decent >plumbing/running water? Hot and cold even? Between magic and already >existing technology (Dark Ages notwithstanding, perhaps Wizards >preserved the Muggle 'good stuff'), I don't think the plumbing issue is >really a problem. Even if at some point the sinks were replaced, would >it be such a stretch for Salazar to have charmed the snake to reappear >on whatever fixture was in that spot? > I suppose that that is possible; but what about charming the mechanism that would allow a seeker to get into and open the Chamber from above? I think it's a charming notion that the WW had 1930s British institutional plumbing about 1000 years ago. :-) The prefects' bathroom, for example, is *very* non-standard. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Mon Jun 2 01:30:10 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 01:30:10 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Message returned for editing: Figg's Role: FIB (Figg Incogneto Bodyguard) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59130 > >I was thinking about McGonagall in general, and > >ended up thinking about that fateful Halloween night. What does > >McGonagall do the whole next day? Sit at the Dursleys house and watch > >them. Yes, we find out that she's been waiting for Dumbledore to show >up, >but > >what if that's not the full reason she was sent there? > >Me: > >MM was at the Dursley's to find Dumbledore. Finding her there >did not suprise AD, but in so admitting, Dumbledore confirms he >did not send her. An interesting question therefore is why? AD >trusts Hagrid more than the Deputy Headmistress? MM had >heard rumors of the events of Godric's Hollow, but looked to AD >for the facts. If we are to accept that so many >wizards were put into play to establish protection for Harry, you >would expect the most trusted friends Dumbledore had to be in on >it. AD doesn't fully trust MM. I think this will become obvious in OoP. > Johannes and other poster: THANK YOU. :-) The question of McGonagall's being there, and this being a surprise to Dumbledore, is one that has continued to bother me. She wasn't sent; she just turned up. This is one of two key points that keeps niggling me, although I know I am in the minority, with my "something is not right about Dumbledore" feeling. I don't have any kind of theory all worked out. Okay, there is a third point: that we keep being beat over the head with statements about Harry being so safe with Dumbledore, and Dumbledore being the only wizard Voldemort is afraid of. But thanks for bringing this up. I think of this at odd times, and never when I sit down to post. :-) Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From chuck_richie_99 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 23:24:37 2003 From: chuck_richie_99 at yahoo.com (Chuck) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 23:24:37 -0000 Subject: Hopes for Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59131 Chuck: <> Bboy_mn: >> Here, I have to disagree, I thought the writing in GoF was very good. I was emotionally moved by many parts. When Harry and Ron were mad at each other, everyone seemed to be against Harry, and everything seemed to be going wrong, I swear it nearly broke my heart.<< That was one of the weaker points IMHO. Two 14 year old boys living together go three years without a fight? And when they finally do a fight it lasts little more than a few days? These guys should fight all the time! Hell, my college roomates and I had it out a few times and we only lived together 8 months with an X-mas break and were 4 years more (less?) mature. Bboy_mn: > We don't know that Portkeys can't be activated by a variety of different means. I > don't see activation by time of day, or by touch as a contradiction or > lazy writing. Sure it is because JKR emphasizes twice that portkeys activate at a specific time ? once when explaining the use of the device, once when Mr. Weasley says he wants to "catch an early portkey." But, fine. There's an exception. Explain it. I could buy your rationalization. Let's see it in the books. Chuck: > > Additionally, all that was needed was a line from Voldemort that > > Harry's blood was no good to him unless he had a certain level of > > skill as a wizard for his rebirth spell to work and the purpose of > > having Harry in the Tournament is validated. Bboy_mn: >> I assume in the paragraph above you are referring to the 'toothbrush' issue; why didn't Moody just enchant Harry toothbrush and send him to Voldemort rather than waiting the whole year and using the Tri-Wizard's Cup. Or perhaps you are referring to the need to use Harry's blood instead of any wizard who would qualify as a enemy of Voldemort's. Also, I'm unclear what you mean by, "Harry's blood was no good to him unless HE had a certain level of skill...". Does Harry's skill need to increase to a certain level or does Voldemort skill need to increase to a certain level. Either way, it would justify the delay. << All three. Justify Harry being in the Tourney. Voldy just has to say, "The blood of a foe isn't good enough. It has to be a foe that's been challenged. That's grown as a wizard. The TWT gave Harry the skills to make my rebirth possible," blah, blah, blah. This is the "Luke - you must face Vader again before you are a Jedi" argument. Harry's blood - Not good. Harry the powerful wizard blood - Now cooking with gas! With the added bonus of Voldy now "inheriting" some of Harry's magical protections (Voldy can now touch Harry). This also eliminates the toothbrush argument. Under these conditions, you can't teleport Harry in November with his toothbrush. He's not powerful / experienced enough to make the Voldy rebirth spell work until he completes the tourney. That's just bad and/or lazy writing when the solution is just a few lines of dialogue. Now, I'm not by any stretch suggesting JKR has gone George Lucas, but I was sorely disappointed that there was no real purpose to the TWC other than to get Harry to touch an object. That's easily fixable. Bboy_mn: > Noce talking to you. Don't be a stranger. If you insist. :) Chuck From coffeebean033 at aol.com Sun Jun 1 23:06:05 2003 From: coffeebean033 at aol.com (coffeebean033 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 19:06:05 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Knight Bus Message-ID: <1d9.abc7271.2c0be0dd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59132 My thoughts- I always figured, whether I be right or not, that Harry extended his wand hand when he was trying to get a glimpse of Sirius. It did say he held up his wand as to get a better view of the alleyway. The reason he tripped over his trunk and extended his wand then was because of the bus hurtling towards them. Also, yes, I do realize that Harry has stuck out his wand hand many a time, but when has he been on the side of the street doing it? No magic outside of school, remember? You can't apparate inside school grounds, which would totally leave out the possibility of it happening there. Don't mean to pick a fight, just telling it how I see it! Thanks for the great subject, though, it gave me a lot to think about! Sincerely- Kim [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leperockon at aol.com Sun Jun 1 21:53:29 2003 From: leperockon at aol.com (taylorlynzie) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 21:53:29 -0000 Subject: The Death of Book 5 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59133 I personally think that Hagrid is going to be the death of book 5. Mostly because at the end of GoF Hagrid says, and I quote: "Got a little job fer me over the summer," said Hagrid. "Secret though. I'm not s'pposed ter talk abou' it, no, not ever ter you lot. Olympe- Madame Maxime ter you- might be comin' with me. I think I got her persuaded." "Is it to do with Voldemort?" "Migh' be," he said evasively. If Dumbledore wanted Hargid and Madame Maxime do do this 'little job' I am mostly likely thinking it is to said convoy to the Giants up in the mountains, it would make sense. Considering that Hagrid is confirmed as to being half-giant and Madame Maxime most certainly is this could create tension with the full-blooded giants. This could perhaps be like some tensions that can arise between full blood/half- blood/muggle-born wizards. I could seriously see Hagrid being killed in the struggle. Many people speculate that Molly Weasley may be the one to go. This is entirely possible, though I do not have either any evidence to support or to disagree with this theory as I have never thought of this scenario before. I suppose it is possible. I don't really see any of the Dursleys being the death, because even though JKR indeed did say that they will be playing a bigger part in these coming books JKR also said that this death was particullary difficult to write which makes me wonder if it could be the Dursleys because I don't see them being the most difficult of characters to kill off. I can't really see it being Hermione or Ron, I'm not really sure why but it just doesn't seem as if she'd kill of one of them...at least yet. Those deaths would be huge and tramatizing. If she does end up killing one of them I could see it being in the last book. Dumbledore could be a possibility for a death in OotP but if it was I don't think it would be because Richard Harris died. JKR has had these plot lines mapped out since the beginning of Potter and even though Harris' death was a huge loss I couldn't really see her altering the entire plotline just to accomadate the film version. Also considering that they may not even make a fifth movie and they are currently in production of the 3rd one it would seem slightly pointless to kill Dumbledore off in the books simply for the films. I still believe it is going to be Hagrid. His death would be very difficult to write because JKR has said they she enjoys to write Hagrid's part, he is also a huge fan of Harry's (this evidence is clear in GoF when Hagrid is constantly complimenting Harry on the tournament, true Harry is a close friend to Hagrid but he was like this when he first met Harry, before he could even start a relationship with him. Another reason for my theory of Hagrid being the one to be killed off is that it is almost like a gut feeling. Something tells me that it will be him, though I don't pretend that my intuition has never failed and I hope depseratly that I am wrong because Hagrid is easily one of my favourite long running characters. Cheers- Tay :) From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Mon Jun 2 05:51:15 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 05:51:15 -0000 Subject: Hopes for Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59134 One thread that has been left dangling and might offer plot possibilities is the Hermione-turns-into-a-cat problem. We now know that pollyjuice and an animal part turns you partly into that animal, and that it is reversable, if not easily. Why were we told all that if not to set up for a future plot point? Could a trapped person pollyjuice a hippogryff hair and fly away? Could a dying person pollyjuice a phoenix feather and resurrect? It might be worthwhile to carry a flask of pollyjuice and a collection of animal artifacts when one goes into dangerous or uncertain situations. If Ms. Bulstrode's cat wasn't inserted into the pollyjuice episode expressly for this, then what other possible reason could there be for turning Hermione into a kitty? Was it to keep Hermione out of the Slytherin common room? What purpose would that provide? Does anyone have any other ideas? Just thought I'd throw this pebble into the pond and see where the ripples go .... ~Constance Vigilance From hieya at hotmail.com Mon Jun 2 06:20:23 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 06:20:23 -0000 Subject: Saving every Sickle (Was: Percy and the Weasleys' finances) In-Reply-To: <1e2.a1363c5.2c0a4d12@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59135 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jodel at a... wrote: > > And the kid isn't even 20 yet and has no experience in managing money (when > has he ever had any?), he's probably barely keeping his head above water. > This is long, so I apologize in advance :) I agree that Percy is still young and learning to manage money, and perhaps should not yet be expected to contribute to his family. But I still believe that the elder Weasleys' concept of money is distorted and that has led to problems with all of their children. The parents have barely enough money to clothe their kids, and they squander hundreds of Galleons on a trip to Egypt?! Childhood should be a fun and enriching time, and perhaps the parents were trying to give their kids something that they never had, but a whole month in a foreign country? (PoA p.8) That was a bit excessive. That lottery winning would have been an excellent time to save up, but they squandered. I am frustrated with this family's values. They are good people, but the parents seem to be living in their own little world. All Arthur cares about is Muggle welfare, even if it means a lack of promotion. I applaud his nobility, but not when he sacrifices his children's interests. If anyone disagrees with me here, I would like to ask, how would you feel if you were a child and your parent worked hard to ensure other people's welfare (such as donating to charities, etc.) but neglected your needs? You might grudgingly respect them, but you would still be unhappy. I feel sorry for Ron in this aspect. He's got wonderful, loving parents who have chosen not to make him their priority. That is hard for any child. All five of the younger Weasleys have responded to their poverty. Percy is ambitious, and I think that his desire to be Minister is at least partly due to his humble origins. He wants to prove himself. There is nothing wrong with this, but his desires have led him to thus far alienate himself from his family, placing his job above them. Can you imagine a rich kid being so motivated to work? Maybe. But I have a hunch that Percy, like everyone else, is struggling to get out. The twins, as we all know, have lashed out against their poverty by trying to earn money via the joke business. Ron is a passive protestor, while poor Ginny's initial insecurities about attending Hogwarts were partly because of her poverty: " 'The diary,' said Riddle...'Little Ginny's been writing in it for months and months, telling me all her pitiful worries...how she had to come to school with secondhand robes and books...' " (CoS p.309) The parents should recognize that their family is in trouble, and they should do something about it. Why not swallow some pride and ask Bill and Charlie for some help? Both have steady jobs, and have been working for at least 10 years (assuming that they did not go to grad school, since Charlie graduated Hogwarts 7 years before Harry entered), so they should have some money (even a few sickles) to offer. Perhaps the Weasleys expect their children to intuitively understand that they don't value money. But kids should not be expected to just understand that their parents are acting in their best interest. Ron certainly doesn't understand. All he knows is that he has to wear girly dress robes. After all this babbling, my final point is that the Weasley parents should wake up and understand that while they might be perfectly content wearing rags while saving the world, they should not expect their children to do the same. greatlit2003, who does care a bit for Molly and Arthur, but thinks Sirius is a better role model for Harry From loonyloopyrjl at yahoo.com Mon Jun 2 06:46:01 2003 From: loonyloopyrjl at yahoo.com (loonyloopyrjl) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 06:46:01 -0000 Subject: Will the real Lupin please stand up... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59136 JHL wrote: It is very obvious that Lupin is a hugely important character, and is one of JKR's favorite by her own admission. He does seem to have legitimate concern for Harry, but is clearly holding himself back from letting their relationship develop. Why would this be true if he were one of the very best and most trusted friends of Harry's now deceased parents? The only logical reason is that the *Lupin* we know is not the real Remus Lupin. Loony Loopy (me) responds: In GoF, Lily and James are the ones who come out of Voldemort's wand from Priori Incantatem, not Lily and Remus Lupin. ==================== JHL wrote: [James] wants to have contact with Harry and protect him, but knows, especially with Voldemort's return to power and attempts at Harry's life, he must remain very cautious. Loony Loopy (me) responds: With my apologies to the Sirius Black devotees, the same could be said of Black while he was in Azkaban, who was closer to James than Lupin was. ==================== JHL wrote: The presence that Harry often feels in the Forbidden Forest could be James/Remus, in stag form, always watching, always ready to reveal himself if truly needed, and in position to act as AD's most guarded spy. Loony Loopy (me) responds: I'm being a bit sarcastic here, but how did hiding in the Forbidden Forest help Harry when he confronted Quirrelmort, the Basilisk in the Chamber of Secrets, or Voldemort at a graveyard many miles away from Hogwarts? ==================== JHL wrote: But when Harry is learning his patronus, pay close attention to Lupin's reactions upon learing that Harry hears his and later, . Loony Loopy (me) responds: Perhaps Lupin wanted to comfort Harry, but decided against it because he wanted to keep a formal student-teacher relationship. He was emotional at hearing the last moments/words of one of his best friend's life. Admitting he knew James meant admitting he also knew Sirius Black, the person condemned with betraying the Potters. Perhaps he felt guilt that if he had been a better friend, that the Potters would have trusted him instead of a traitor (Black) as their Secret Keeper, and the Potters would have been alive today. ==================== In another response, JHL wrote: Likely Harry's whereabouts were hidden from all but AD, RH, MM, Mrs. Figg, and those charged with his protection/containment. Loony Loopy (me) responds: Dobby found Harry on Privet Drive, the Weasley brothers drove up to Harry's bedroom window in CoS, and Padfoot/The Grim was able to find Harry at Magnolia Crescent. Regards, Loony Loopy From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 2 06:53:55 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 06:53:55 -0000 Subject: Hopes for Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59137 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chuck" wrote: > Chuck: <> > > Bboy_mn: >> Here, I have to disagree, I thought the writing in GoF > was very good. I was emotionally moved by many parts. << > CHUCK: > That was one of the weaker points IMHO. Two 14 year old boys living > together go three years without a fight? And when they finally do a > fight it lasts little more than a few days? These guys should fight > all the time! Hell, my college roomates and I had it out a few > times .... and were 4 years more (less?) mature. > bboy_mm now replies: You and your college roomates were SEVEN years older than Harry and Ron. While they were 11, 12, 13, & 14, you and your friends were 18, 19, 20, & 21. Let's also remember that these boys are in a very restrictive environment; boarding school. They aren't even allowed out of the castle grounds until third year, and even then they are only allowed out a few times during the school year. When I was a kid, my friends and I had free run of the whole town and even outside of town. Everyday after school and on weekends we would hop on our bikes and go to the city park, ride out to the lake or the river, play at the fair grounds or down by the railroad tracks and grain elevator, occassionally even riding far out into the country. I see Boarding School as a very restrictive environment even given the night time roaming of Harry and his friends, and I think they are by far the exception rather than the rule. They are supervised far more closely than I was as a kid, and certainly supervised far more closely than you were at college. More important than all of that, is that Harry and Ron are united against a common enemy, Draco. Draco causes enough problems to keep Harry and Ron constantly working together. And, there are certainly moments of tension between them in several parts of the series before their hostilities in GoF; hostilities which lasted substantially longer than a few days by the way. More like a few months. > Bboy_mn: > We don't know that Portkeys can't be activated by a > variety of different means. I don't see activation by time of day, > or by touch as a contradiction or lazy writing. > > CHUCK: > Sure it is because JKR emphasizes twice that portkeys activate at a > specific time ? once when explaining the use of the device, once > when Mr. Weasley says he wants to "catch an early portkey." But, > fine. There's an exception. Explain it. I could buy your > rationalization. Let's see it in the books. > bboy_mn now replies: But it is in the books. As I explained before, the detailed references to the workings of the Portkey (by Mr. Weasley) that you cited are tied tightly to the context of the Quidditch World Cup. Several people have agreed that it is very logical for a transportation problem like the QWC to run on a time schedule like a train or bus. The other explaination of how Portkeys work is by the example of the Portkey used during the third task (the Tri-Wizard's Cup). It is used in a completely different logical and logistical context, and is therefore used in a completely different way. This new context does not require ridgidly scheduled activation the way the QWC did. So what evidence does the book give us? It gives us two different methods of activation; scheduled time of day, and touch activated. It shows us that Floo Poweder is used far more often than Portkeys even though Portkeys seem to be a better method. The question that must be answered by expanding Portkeys beyond the limits of the books is, if Portkey are so great, why don't they dominate wizard travel? There has to be a logic reason why Floo Powder is preferred over Portkeys when they are very similar methods of travel. The evidence shows me that Portkey are not the preferred method of travel. What I've done is attempted to come up with a reasonably likely reason why. Again, I can't say that it is true; I only say that it is a reasonable explanation and expansion of how Portkeys might work that fits the available information. > Chuck: > > Additionally, all that was needed was a line from > Voldemort that Harry's blood was no good to him unless he had a > certain level of skill as a wizard for his rebirth spell to work > and the purpose of having Harry in the Tournament is validated. > Chuck continues in his new response: > > .... Justify Harry being in the Tourney. Voldy just has to > say, "The blood of a foe isn't good enough. It has to be a foe > that's been challenged. That's grown as a wizard. The TWT gave > Harry the skills to make my rebirth possible," blah, blah, blah. > This is the "Luke - you must face Vader again before you are a Jedi" > argument. Harry's blood - Not good. Harry the powerful wizard > blood - Now cooking with gas! With the added bonus of Voldy > now "inheriting" some of Harry's magical protections (Voldy can now > touch Harry). > > ...edited... > > Chuck bboy_mn responds: Sorry Chuck, but I don't buy it. On the other hand, it is a nice concept. It could be like a magical adrenaline factor, at the point of Harry winning the tournement, Harry is PUMPED UP magically, psychologically, physically, and biologically. All his energy (magical, physical, and psychic) is flowing at full force thereby making his blood an extra powerful agent for the potion. I can see that as a possible concept, but I don't see it as a likely concept. But, of course, that is nothing more than my opinion. I suspect there are others who will find your concept very appealing. Just a thought. bboy_mn From shokoono at gmx.de Mon Jun 2 08:35:56 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 10:35:56 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Another potions expert? References: Message-ID: <003801c328e3$a32983c0$0900a8c0@tubs.de.rz.tubs.de> No: HPFGUIDX 59138 Hi all!! I've got another idea: (hope nobody wrote it before and I just didn't see it) I don't believe that St. Mungo is the only wizzardy hospital in the world (or in England) so why not a doctor orders him to take it as a medicine and he has to take it once a month (or like this) from another hospital or doctor. It is obvious that it is known that Lupin is a werewolf just remember that Fudge knew it (GoF) so why not some kind of department having him registered being a werewolf.... Yours Finchen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From truebeliever60 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 2 05:12:11 2003 From: truebeliever60 at hotmail.com (truebeliever60) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 05:12:11 -0000 Subject: The Death of Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59139 "taylorlynzie" wrote: > I still believe it is going to be Hagrid. His death would be very > difficult to write because JKR has said they she enjoys to write > Hagrid's part, he is also a huge fan of Harry's... I think I agree with you here. Hagrid is an important part of the series, and would certainly be a huge death to deal with, but he doesn't seem plot-essential neccesarily. Dumbledore, any of the three, and the more prominent teachers seem to have a large role to fill yet. In other words, JKR still needs them around. Hagrid would be missed, but he doesn't have the same part in Harry's life that some others seem to. He is just a faithful friend, not protector or relative, or even a close friend of James and Lilly. On the other hand, chills went down my spine when Wormtail received his silver hand, and something tells me that our favorite werewolf, Remus Lupin, may be dead at his hands soon. If not in this book, then later in the series for sure. Lupin's only real personal enemy (besides Voldemort) suddenly developing a shiny, silver appendage can't be a good thing for his life expectancy, can it? So those are my best guesses: Hagrid or Lupin. Whoever it is, I can't wait to read the book and find out that, and everything else that happens to Harry and Co. this time around. Tim- who thinks the confrontation between Lupin and Pettigrew will be the coolest piece of duelling we have seen. From nellie_beandust at yahoo.com Mon Jun 2 05:33:10 2003 From: nellie_beandust at yahoo.com (Nellie) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 05:33:10 -0000 Subject: Evil Fat Lady!! (well, not really) and spying art Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59140 Hullo! I was reading through old posts about the arts in Hogwarts, and it got me thinking some really goofy thoughts! :-) Tyler wrote (in message # 57198) >The wizarding world seems pretty creative to me. It >may be that creativity is a given among wizards and as >such doesn't warrent actual instruction (unlike us >muggles who like to dismiss creativity as useless and >horror of horors, 'feminine'). There has to be >creative wizards around-who made those paintings? So who _did_ make those paintings?! Do you think that paintings have some of the characteristics of the painter? What if some one *evil* painted portraits? Riddle could have made paintings! Seems like the kind of thing that he would be into. It's sort of like immortality, creating people, and putting a bit of yourself in them (like the diary)(Maybe that's why they don't have art classes at Hogwarts!! Art can be dangerous!) Also, paintings could spy for him. As Snuffles wrote in message 57276: >even when speaking under the invisibility cloak, >couldn't the art hear the Trio, or >anyone else for that matter? And, if >so, does the art travel to the art in >Dumbledore's office to fill him in on >the goings-on inside the castle? What if Voldemort's faithful servant was not a person, but a painting? It would be perfect. They can go anywhere in the castle where there's another picture, and hear and see everything that's going on. Who chose the Fat Lady as Gryffindor's guardian anyway? And why doesn't the Slytherin common room have a portrait, just a wall? Perhaps Salazar was a painter, and wanted the students in his house to be able to sneak out easily, while the Gryffindors would have to go through interrogation by a painting, which would then report back to him I bet the Fat Lady is evil! (There's been Molly-is-evil speculation, why not this?) She was still the door keeper (is that the correct name?) of Gryffindor when MWPP were attending Hogwarts. So when Sirius tried to get in the dormitory, why did he slash her? He must have remembered her, and she most likely had some recollection of him. So he had become unrecognizable from his years in Azkaban, but I'm sure that there was something that he could have said to make her remember him, along the lines of "Hey, remember that night, in '76? When that young hooligan by the name of Sirius woke you up at three in the morning, covered in hex marks and goo? Let me in, please, I'm tired and cold and nearly dead and I just need a place to rest for a *few minutes* and its not like anyone's in there, they're all at the feast..." I know he probably wasn't the sanest sounding person, but I think she didn't let him in because she was protecting Pettigrew! He probably transforms at night and goes out and chats with the Fat Lady, telling her the sad sad story of his life. Or she was a Voldemort sympathizer from the beginning, and instrumental in getting Peter to betray Lilly and James... She just claims that she didnt let him because he didn't have the password, and who would question it? Actually, I bet the real bad guy isn't the Fat Lady, but her friend Violet who shows up in the fourth book. Interesting that we were supposed to meet the first truly evil female in GoF. Also worth noting that she's seen in her frame in the room adjacent to the great hall (perhaps the room with special magical powers that JKR would visit?) winking at Bill Weasley. (hmm ) Heh, this was fun to think about, even if it is totally doofy and doesn't stand up under fire. Going back to hiding, Nellie From linlou43 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 2 11:06:20 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 11:06:20 -0000 Subject: Hopes for Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59141 Chuck wrote: > Additionally, all that was needed was a line > from Voldemort that Harry's blood was no good to him unless he had a > certain level of skill as a wizard for his rebirth spell to work and > the purpose of having Harry in the Tournament is validated. > > That smells of rushed writing to me Linda: I see your point here but I think if JKR had done as you suggested it would have called into question yet another part of canon. In the conversation Frank Bryce overhears at the Riddle house, Wormtail tries to convince LV to use another wizard for his rebirthing. Voldemort's reply is to admit that another wizard could be used but that he wants the protection Harry's mother left in him. There is no mention of any other factor. IMO, the implication is that any wizard that considers LV as his enemy would have been sufficient to make the potion work and Harry's strength has nothing to do with it. Additionally, also IMHO, IF LV was going for strength, it seem to me that he could have done better than Wormtail for the flesh of the servant part of the potion. He could have had Wormtail bind Harry and leave him there until Crouch Jr could arrive for instance. Considering that Crouch Jr was in possesion of an invisability cloak it shouldn't have been that difficult for him to slip off the school grounds and apparate to LV's side. -Linda, just my two knuts From maryblue67 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 2 11:28:10 2003 From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 04:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Polyjuice with animal parts (was: Re: Hopes for Book 5) In-Reply-To: <1054551988.4617.54339.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030602112810.99203.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59142 constancevigilance introduced the idea: One thread that has been left dangling and might offer plot possibilities is the Hermione-turns-into-a-cat problem. We now know that pollyjuice and an animal part turns you partly into that animal, and that it is reversable, if not easily. Why were we told all that if not to set up for a future plot point? Could a trapped person pollyjuice a hippogryff hair and fly away? Could a dying person pollyjuice a phoenix feather and resurrect? It might be worthwhile to carry a flask of pollyjuice and a collection of animal artifacts when one goes into dangerous or uncertain situations. And i (Maria) add: I am sorry, but i have to disagree with you. When Hermione gets tranformed with the polyjuice that contains a cat hair, she does not tranform into a cat fully, but get a furry face and a tail (and more, i know, but my point is that she stays with the same body size and shape? ) I don't think, therefore, that tranforming into a phoenix with polyjuice will give you more than a red and gold plumage over your body, rather than transforming you complety into one (therfore, you'd be completely incapable of flying). Same thing with a Hippogriff or any other animal. At least that's how i understand Hermione's transformation happened in PS/SS (unless movie contamination has made me think otherwise) Maria, enjoying posting rather than working... ===== Maryblue ---------------------------------------------------------- "Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love" - Eistein __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From catherinemck at hotmail.com Mon Jun 2 11:45:54 2003 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 11:45:54 -0000 Subject: FILK: Teenage D.E. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59143 Teenage D.E. A filk to the tune of Teenage Dirtbag, by Wheatus The teenaged Snape sits in a corner of the Slytherin Common Room. His school robes look as much like a trenchcoat as safety pins and spellotape can make them, his tie is a strangled knot three inches below his collar in this year's "Hogwarts rebel" fashion. A signed-up member of the disdainful, sneering, Dark Arts loving, grudge-bearing Slytherin crowd...but he's got a secret. In a corner of his bitter and twisted heart a little flame burns with hopeless, tragic passion. He checks to see that he's alone, picks up the imaginary microphone, and starts to sing. SNAPE Her name is Lily I have a dream about her Know she's for me Though she's a Gryffindor I've got no qualms Watching her Charms But she doesn't know who I am And she doesn't give a damn about me (leaps out of his seat, twists his face in tormented rocker expression and screams) Cuz I'm just a teenage D.E., baby Yeah, I'm just a teenage D.E., baby Come on and learn the Dark Arts, baby, with me Her boyfriend's a berk, He and his gang of four Wish I could curse Them all, but there's Dumbledore He's on their side - Such an easy ride - Wish I was one of those guys Imagine the look in her eyes! Cuz I'm just a teenage D.E., baby Yeah, I'm just a teenage D.E., baby Come on and learn the Dark Arts, baby, with me Ooh yeah, D.E. Yeah, I'm gonna join Voldemort Ooh yeah, D.E. Yeah, I'm gonna join Voldemort It's the Quidditch Cup Gryffindor's won again She's getting up Walkin' right past the team Is it a dare But look at them stare Seems that she knows who I am But why does she give a damn about me? (Everyone's down by the Quidditch pitch, when suddenly through the Gryffindor and Slytherin teams and their massed fans a figure comes walking, a vision in black patent leather buckled shoes and virgin socks. Yes, it's Lily Evans. The crowds part before her as she flips back her long red hair, pulls a big stripy lollipop out of her mouth and beckons to the gobsmacked Snape) LILY I've always wanted to learn the Dark Arts, baby Wouldn't you like to teach me, maybe I'm just a teenage D.E. baby, like you, ooh Ooh yeah, D.E. Yeah, I'm gonna join Voldemort Ooh yeah, D.E. Yeah, I'm gonna join Voldemort **** Hurrah! My first filk. Thanks to Caius Marcus for hours of entertaining reading and inspiration at his collected filks website. Catherine McK From bard7696 at aol.com Mon Jun 2 11:47:21 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 11:47:21 -0000 Subject: Saving every Sickle (Was: Percy and the Weasleys' finances) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59144 Greatlit: > The parents have barely enough money to clothe their kids, and they > squander hundreds of Galleons on a trip to Egypt?! Childhood should > be a fun and enriching time, and perhaps the parents were trying to > give their kids something that they never had, but a whole month in > a foreign country? (PoA p.8) That was a bit excessive. That lottery > winning would have been an excellent time to save up, but they > squandered. They didn't just pick Egypt off of a map. Bill works there, remember? It was a chance to see a family member they don't get to see very often and they likely had a free place to stay. We know that they also bought Ron a new wand with the money, so it stands to reason that the other children got something vital as well. > I am frustrated with this family's values. They are good people, but the parents seem to be living in their own little world. All Arthur cares about is Muggle welfare, even if it means a lack of promotion. > I applaud his nobility, but not when he sacrifices his children's > interests. If anyone disagrees with me here, I would like to ask, > how would you feel if you were a child and your parent worked hard > to ensure other people's welfare (such as donating to charities, > etc.) but neglected your needs? You might grudgingly respect them, > but you would still be unhappy. Your analogy is not quite right. There is a difference between giving money to charity and not getting promoted due to your beliefs. And what about teaching children that doing what is right is worth more than money? What kind of role model would Arthur be if he stopped working for the protection of Muggles simply in order to get a raise? We never hear about the Weasleys going without food and clothing. They have to buy some clothes second-hand, but many parents do. That's why consignment shops and yard sales do such brisk business. Ron and the other boys have brooms that aren't top models. Their textbooks are used -- so were mine, all through college -- and they each don't have a pet. That is the side of poverty we see, that they can't rush out and buy new -- and designer -- clothes. That is hardly neglect. So Arthur caves in to the anti-Muggle sentiment of the higher-ups and watches evil men like Lucius get their way, for a raise. What does that mean? That one of the textbooks each of the kids uses each year can be new instead of used? Not worth it. I feel sorry for Ron in this aspect. > He's got wonderful, loving parents who have chosen not to make him > their priority. That is hard for any child. I think that's a big leap to make from Arthur having a fondness for Muggles, that Ron isn't the priority. Are all the children behind Arthur's muggle beliefs or just Ron? Ron is a middle child, plain and simple. I think he'd feel insecure, rich or poor. > All five of the younger Weasleys have responded to their poverty. > Percy is ambitious, and I think that his desire to be Minister is at least partly due to his humble origins. He wants to prove himself. There is nothing wrong with this, but his desires have led him to thus far alienate himself from his family, placing his job above them.Can you imagine a rich kid being so motivated to work? Maybe. But I have a hunch that Percy, like everyone else, is struggling to get out. A telling passage in GoF, one that neatly skewers the anti-Percy sentiment that runs around here. pg 437: "Dumbledore and Ludo Bagman stood beaming at Harry and Ron from the bank as they swam nearer, but Percy, who looked very white and somehow much younger than usual, came splashing out to meet them." Later, Percy tries to physically take Ron back to shore. When the chips were down, Percy remembered what was important, his family. This whole "alienate" himself from his family thing is a kid working hard to make a good impression. He's in his first job and wants to do well. But let's not jump to him forgetting his family just yet. > The twins, as we all know, have lashed out against their poverty by > trying to earn money via the joke business. "Lashed out against their poverty by trying to earn money?" GASP! Someone call the Dementors! Someone is lashing poverty! It sounds a lot nicer, and I think more accurate, to just say, "trying to earn money doing something they love doing." Ron is a passive protestor, while poor Ginny's initial insecurities about attending Hogwarts were partly because of her poverty: " 'The diary,' said Riddle...'Little Ginny's been writing in it for months and months, telling me all her pitiful worries...how she had to come to school with secondhand robes and books...' " (CoS p.309) So...Arthur and Molly should have done without food to pay for a brand new robe and books for Ginny? Is that it? A robe she would outgrow by the next year, most likely. A book that she would probably barely use after the first year. That way, Ginny doesn't feel insecure and never feels the need to write in the diary! She's an 11-year-old girl. Nothing else to feel insecure about, is there? > Perhaps the Weasleys expect their children to intuitively understand> that they don't value money. But kids should not be expected to just understand that their parents are acting in their best interest. Ron certainly doesn't understand. All he knows is that he has to wear > girly dress robes. After all this babbling, my final point is that > the Weasley parents should wake up and understand that while they > might be perfectly content wearing rags while saving the world, they should not expect their children to do the same. What you are saying is that Ron's desire to look manly at the Yule Ball -- a 14-year-old boy's desire -- should be more important than the problems of the world Arthur and Molly deal with. Buying a new robe for Ron would have been a waste of money. He didn't dance with the girl he took and didn't think to ask the girl he really wanted to take. Do you think him having a new robe would have increased his enjoyment of that night? Remember that passage in the book? Ron gives his mother grief about not having nicer robes. I'm sorry, Prince Ron, let me NOT pay the electric bill this month so you can have a robe. Children always want things their parents can't afford. I'd wager even Draco covets things Lucius can't swing. (There you go. Let's use Draco as a role-model for what happens when kids get bought things without thought to the consequences.) Darrin -- Still goes to yard sales, thank you. From cassandre.lamaudite at laposte.net Mon Jun 2 06:35:26 2003 From: cassandre.lamaudite at laposte.net (emmajess29) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 06:35:26 -0000 Subject: Bet In-Reply-To: <000e01c327a2$182578c0$ef11570c@pavilion> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59145 --from Cathy-- I just think they really know their Quidditch teams and seekers. They are great fans. I don't believe any of the theories that they time- traveled or anything else to know the outcome. --from DangerMouse-- "The Irish Chasers were too good... He (Krum) wanted to end it on his terms, that's all." How very true. Before Krum caught the Snitch, the score was Bulgaria: 10, Ireland: 170. Quite substantial! If we assume that Fred and George were aware of Bulgaria/Ireland's recent Quidditch matches, the effectiveness of each of the teams' chasers, and a little about Krum's style, the bet would be fairly likely actually. Had Krum been more patient, just long enough to be 140 points behind, he would have probably been able to get the Snitch (though his Wrongski Feints would have probably snapped the Irish Seeker's neck eventually). --from Rach-- Another reason for the unusual bet might be the fact that it is so unlikely. Bagman says "I'll give you excellent odds on that one." (Gof US 89). Thus, the twins will get a greater return on their bet than if they had just picked Ireland to win. I'm not the sports betting expert, but I think in the case of a huge favorite (which I think Ireland was on the strength of their complete team), the odds are so great that you have to bet a ton of money to get any return. Like horse racing when you have 1-3 odds , you have to bet $300 to get a $100 return if your horse wins. (I hope that's right, please correct me if I'm wrong). --my answer-- Thank you three for your answers, that's very nice of you ! I didn't think of that but it seems really likely. That's true that Fred and George had more to win if they bet on this and they're really the kind of guys to do that sort of things ! Thanks again ; everyone seems to be so nice around here ! EmmaJess From distractedone at comcast.net Mon Jun 2 07:57:56 2003 From: distractedone at comcast.net (Merlin) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 03:57:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dementors kiss References: Message-ID: <005a01c328dc$ae271960$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59146 > bboy_mn: > > Lose of the soul I think is the same as the lose of your basic > humanity. ... you go from being a human to being a mammal. > ...edited... You are reduced to being a very sad, pathetic, > marginally intelligent, marginally functional 'dog'. > According to canon PoA ch 25 pg 247 Harry asks "What - they kill - ?" "Oh no," said Lupin. "Much worse than that. You can exist without your soul, you know, as long as your brain and heart are still working. But you'll have no sense of self anymore, no memory, no...anything. There's no chance at all of recovery. You'll just exist. As an empty shell, and your soul is gone forever...lost." Merlin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From helen at odegard.com Mon Jun 2 09:25:33 2003 From: helen at odegard.com (Helen R. Granberry) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 02:25:33 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups]RE: Polyjuice potion and animal transformations, was Hopes for Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001101c328e8$eb79af10$6401a8c0@helenw1> No: HPFGUIDX 59147 One thread that has been left dangling and might offer plot possibilities is the Hermione-turns-into-a-cat problem. We now know that pollyjuice and an animal part turns you partly into that animal, and that it is reversable, if not easily. Why were we told all that if not to set up for a future plot point? Could a trapped person pollyjuice a hippogryff hair and fly away? Could a dying person pollyjuice a phoenix feather and resurrect? It might be worthwhile to carry a flask of pollyjuice and a collection of animal artifacts when one goes into dangerous or uncertain situations. If Ms. Bulstrode's cat wasn't inserted into the pollyjuice episode expressly for this, then what other possible reason could there be for turning Hermione into a kitty? Was it to keep Hermione out of the Slytherin common room? What purpose would that provide? Does anyone have any other ideas? Just thought I'd throw this pebble into the pond and see where the ripples go .... ~Constance Vigilance >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh wow, I never even thought of that. What would happen if one kept a phoenix feather on hand for such occasions? Really, why didn't Hermione get to go with Harry and Ron? It was not, in anyway, particularly important to the plot of CoS. Much in the same way the polyjuice potion itself was a dead end. Malfoy was not the heir of Slytherin... but the polyjuice potion in CoS set up the use of the polyjuice potion in GoF. Perhaps Hermione's unsuccessful animal transformation was a setup for another type of animal transformation? Helen --------------- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 2 10:28:44 2003 From: alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com (Alon van Dam) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 10:28:44 -0000 Subject: Portkeys Explained Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59148 Dear all, Since this is the first message I'm writing in this group (yay!), I don't know if what I'm writing has been written before. however, it seems to me that a lot of discussion is going on about portkeys. Apparently, the difference between the shoe-portkey of the QWC and the cup of the TWC annoys people. Now, I will admit to have a (one) problem with the portkeys as well, but I'll mention that at the end of this message. First, I'd like to go into a short explanation of why I think these different kinds of portkeys were employed: I've seen mention of different types of portkeys, time-activated and touch-activated. I'll keep the distinction here. I have never had problems with these different portkeys, since it makes sense to me: 1) The Portkey to go to the QWC needed to be in a public place, for people living at different places to congregate there, and it would be quite heinous if some random muggle pilfered the trash and came across the shoe (however unlikely) and would be teleported to the QWC, also taking away the transportation option for the WW's: Minor crisis. Therefore, a time-option would have been ADDED to the normal portkey (which would be touch-activated) to make it so that only people touching the object at a certain time would be teleported. Since the WW's know the time, it minimizes chances of anything going wrong a thousandfold. 2) The one at the TWC couldn't have ben Time-related. It was hard enough for Crouch/Moody to make sure that Harry would be the first one to touch the Cup (and almost fizzles in that as well): There was no way he could possibly have correctly guesstimated the time on the dot. Therefore, he needed to make sure that Harry was just the first one touching the object, which is what he did. As you see, both kinds of portkeys have their advantages and disadvantages. I believe, however, that the correct one was used for every occasion. How hard is it to believe that Wizards who can create a portkey can also add a time-function to it: Cause that's what the time-portkey is, nothing more. The problem I have with the portkey is that it would seem stupid to make the TWC-Portkey a two-way object. If I'd been Harry or Cedric, I would take the TWC along with me while exploring (maybe just too much roleplaying on my behalf). A possibility I considered is that all portkeys are two-way. However, I seem to remember that at the QWC all the used portkeys were just dumped into a large pile, so I don;'t know... Maybe time-activated portkeys also have a timed return-time, whereas touch-activated also have touch-returns... That, or the 'added waypoint'-theorem, or the idea of a safe-catch... Either way, it was quite foolish of Crouch/Moody, Peter, and Voldemort ;) Hope this helps the discussion in some way, Alon From alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 2 11:34:15 2003 From: alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com (Alon van Dam) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 11:34:15 -0000 Subject: Hermione's age revisited. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59149 Dear all, Disclaimer: I realise this is based on a small and insignificant scrap of information, but one has to row with the oars at hand (old Dutch saying). I've been reading the discussion on Hermione's age with interest. Personally, I must say that I am firmly entrenched in the 1980-camp, mainly because her behaviour fits more with the youngest person in a class than the oldest person in a class... For most of my life, I've been the youngest person in my class, so I really do recognise the behaviour attributed to me as opposed to that of my classmates. (For some reason, i really like the character of Hermione, but that's beside the point.) The scrap of information I wanted to point you all towards is the wording JKR uses in the 1st Scholastic Chat. She says: "In Hogwarts there's a magical quill which detects the birth of a magical child, and writes his or her name down in a large parchment book. Every year Professor McGonagall checks the book, and sends owls to the people who are turning 11. " Note the wording: 'the people who ARE TURNING 11'. Seeing as term starts at the 1st of September, Hermione's birthday is the 19th of that very same month, and McGonagall seems likely to send the Hogwarts-letters in the summer (yes, the letters are sent suspiciously close to Harry's birthday, but it also makes /sense/ to send acceptance-letters in the summer before enrolment) Hermione would have been 11 already when she recieved the letter, and would in fact turn 12 a mere two weeks after start of term according to the 1979-proponents. It just doesn't make sense to me... Hope this adds something, Cheers, Alon From ivanova at idcnet.com Mon Jun 2 14:31:14 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 09:31:14 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Evil Fat Lady!! (well, not really) and spying art References: Message-ID: <001001c32913$9ffd7050$37ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 59150 Nellie wrote: I bet the Fat Lady is evil! (There's been Molly-is-evil speculation, why not this?) She was still the door keeper (is that the correct name?) of Gryffindor when MWPP were attending Hogwarts. So when Sirius tried to get in the dormitory, why did he slash her? He must have remembered her, and she most likely had some recollection of him. So he had become unrecognizable from his years in Azkaban, but I'm sure that there was something that he could have said to make her remember him, along the lines of "Hey, remember that night, in '76? When that young hooligan by the name of Sirius woke you up at three in the morning, covered in hex marks and goo? Let me in, please, I'm tired and cold and nearly dead and I just need a place to rest for a *few minutes* and its not like anyone's in there, they're all at the feast..." I know he probably wasn't the sanest sounding person, but I think she didn't let him in because she was protecting Pettigrew! He probably transforms at night and goes out and chats with the Fat Lady, telling her the sad sad story of his life. Or she was a Voldemort sympathizer from the beginning, and instrumental in getting Peter to betray Lilly and James... She just claims that she didnt let him because he didn't have the password, and who would question it? Kelly (me) writes: Re: the Fat Lady not letting Sirius in. Maybe he did try to tell her who he was and asked if she would let him in, hoping she would because he was an ex-Gryffindor. Thing is, I don't think it works that way. I think that a person does not get into a House common room unless s/he can give the proper password. Simple as that. Otherwise, what's to stop Draco from polyjuicing himself into Harry and expecting to be let in to the Gryffindor common room simply because he looks like Harry? The Fat Lady doesn't even let in Neville without the password, even though she knows who he is and that he is forgetful. I believe this is done as an extra security precaution, to prevent polyjuiced people and other imposters from getting into places they shouldn't be in. Sirius, being more or less fresh out of Azkaban after 12 years, did not take kindly to her refusals to let her in, and that, coupled with his desperation to get Peter before Peter got Harry, made him lose it and take it out on her. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Mon Jun 2 14:51:15 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 14:51:15 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore...evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59151 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "taylorlynzie" wrote: > > ....Annnnyways....getting on to my point of this post is that I > believe that Dumbledore was perhaps born into a Dark Family, maybe > even like the Malfoy's, gauging that he is around 150 this is quite > possible without knowing much detail from the books. Perhaps a supporting point -- sometime in GoF, after the Daily Prophet article on Hagrid has come out, Dumbledore briefly refers to his own brother. He notes in particular that the brother had got into some trouble for practicing improper incantations with a goat (or something like that). The part about improper incantations is of enough concern by itself, but the reference to a goat feels a bit, well, satanic. Further, Dumbledore says he is not even sure if his brother could read, which seems consistent with being a bit distant from the family. Then again, perhaps it was the brother who was the black sheep. Ersatz Harry From linlou43 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 2 14:57:35 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 14:57:35 -0000 Subject: Evil Fat Lady!! (well, not really) and spying art In-Reply-To: <001001c32913$9ffd7050$37ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59152 Kelly wrote: > Re: the Fat Lady not letting Sirius in. Maybe he did try to tell her who > he was and asked if she would let him in, hoping she would because he was an > ex-Gryffindor. Thing is, I don't think it works that way. I think that a > person does not get into a House common room unless s/he can give the proper > password. Simple as that. Linda: I agree. I think it is as simple as whether you know the pass word or not and I have another example for you. At the beginning of CoS, when HR get to the portrait they can't get in because they don't know the password. If Hermione hadn't shown up with the password, they would have been sleeping in the corridor. Additionally, HR seemed to be aware of that, which suggests your explantion is indeed how the system works. Just my two knuts-Linda From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 2 15:05:11 2003 From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 15:05:11 -0000 Subject: Hermione/ Rita in OoP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59153 *red lights flash alarms sound-- LURKER ALERT* I appreciate this different take on Hermione even if I don't agree with erm...all of it. Hermione is rather driven in an obsessive sort of way (Hermione a slytherin? there's a disscussion), but as I know has been discussed inumerable times, this tends to be attributed to her insecurities, which could stem from many different things. For one Hermione *is* muggle born and hasn't had the easiest time of it, from Draco etc. In GoF she tells Harry that Ron is jealous, but I wonder if she isn't slightly as well...after all Hermione's academic accomplishment (not that this is canon, but it makes sense from a personal standpoint) is probably more envied than revered. However, since House elves are another post, your point that I wanted to refute isn't the above, but- Melody wrote: "But the reason I fear Hermione the most is because of her actions with Rita Skeeter in GoF. That is down right obsessive. Once Hermione decided to go after Rita, she did not stop until she has her. The worse case of this is when Hermione captures her. At the moment when she does capture the Beetle!Rita, Hermione *should* have been worried about her best friend Harry. Instead, that stupid reporter is still on her little obsessed mind and Hermione is looking around for her. She is so engaged in looking for Rita that when she find her, Hermione was overjoyed and slammed her hand around the beetle interrupting a deep, loving hug which her best friend needed. Hermione was too into finding Rita that she forgot what was more important." Me: --Ok, yeah I'll admit Harry has *obviously* been through a tremendous ordeal, and Hermione could've been more sensitive, but there is NO WAY that her quick thinking which led to capturing Rita was not helpful to Harry. You're either forgetting what Rita has just heard- enough information to discredit Fudge or frame Harry as a murderer (which I'm still afraid she'll do, but more on that) and reveal Sirius AND probably have Dumbledore permanently removed...I'm rereading GoF but have yet to get to this part and it's been awhile so bear with me....Hemione was, if anything, doing a great service to Harry by stopping Rita. Melody wrote: "Then we have Hermione's famous imprisoning of Beetle!Rita. Hmm, she has problems with the enslavement of house elves, but she does not mind holding a transfigured human in a glass jar with a leaf to eat until *she* chooses to let them go. Hermione was even showing off her trophy to Harry and Ron in the train." Me: --Yes, but Rita is dangerous at this point and has the potential to do great harm to Hermione and many people about whom she cares. I do agree that Hermione is being foolish to think that her blackmail of Rita will keep her quiet indefinitely, but this is more because we know so many unregistered anamagi that I doubt the punishment for such can be *that* great. I hope that this doesn't mean more trouble for Hermione in the future, but it does seem likely. I don't, however, think that Hermione is all that frightening.... Well if I think of anything else... cheers, Scott From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Jun 2 15:33:19 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 15:33:19 -0000 Subject: Portkeys Explained In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59154 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alon van Dam" wrote: > Dear all, > > Since this is the first message I'm writing in this group (yay!), I > don't know if what I'm writing has been written before. Annemehr: Welcome to the group! Alon continues: > The problem I have with the portkey is that it would seem stupid to > make the TWC-Portkey a two-way object. If I'd been Harry or Cedric, I > would take the TWC along with me while exploring (maybe just too much > roleplaying on my behalf). A possibility I considered is that all > portkeys are two-way. However, I seem to remember that at the QWC all > the used portkeys were just dumped into a large pile, so I don;'t > know... Maybe time-activated portkeys also have a timed return-time, > whereas touch-activated also have touch-returns... That, or > the 'added waypoint'-theorem, or the idea of a safe-catch... Either > way, it was quite foolish of Crouch/Moody, Peter, and Voldemort ;) > Annemehr: I always imagined the TWC to be rather large and heavy; since portkey "reentry" seems to be rather sudden and jarring, I'm not surprised they would have dropped it. Right after that, a stranger approaches in the dark, unfamiliar place, and they had other things to think about, and this explanation satisfies me. I'm not sure they would even think of the portkey as a way *back* since the QWC ones seemed to be "dead" after arrival -- a *different* item was programmed for them the morning they wanted to go back to Stoatshead Hill. As for why the Cup transports Harry back to Hogwarts, two possibilities have been mulled over during my time on the list. One says that Dumbledore originally made the Cup a portkey to transport the winner to the entrance of the maze, so the audience would see who had won. The idea is that Crouch!Moody merely *inserted* a stop at the graveyard, to take Harry there first. This idea is beautifully logical, but two objections make me disbelieve it. For one thing, there is no good reason why Bagman would not have told the champions this while he was explaining the task, and secondly, Crouch Jr., under the Veritaserum, says that he "turned the cup into a portkey," which I take to be literal truth. The other possibility, which is what I believe, is that Crouch Jr. put both stops in for a reason. There have been discussions as to why he did this, and two possible reasons are usually put forth. The theory I do not believe is that, after killing Harry, Voldemort intended to stage an invasion of Hogwarts, and that this surprise attack would enable him to kill Dumbledore and some of his allies. This seems unlikely to me because I don't think he would atttempt such a thing immediately after regaining his body and making the first contact with most of his DE's (the ones not in Azkaban) in about 13 years. The perhaps more telling objection is that the TWC, being a touch-activated portkey, is a poor tool for transporting a crowd of people who would all have to touch it at exactly the same time. In my opinion, the return trip to Hogwarts was intended to transport Harry's dead body to the feet of Albus Dumbledore in a very public way, in order to announce Voldemort's triumphant return and victory over "the boy who lived." It would have been a great piece of psychological warfare (terrible, yes, but great). Now, WHILE we're on the subject of portkeys, I'd like to offer a bit of possible support to Steve bboy_mn's reasoning that portkeys must be difficult to make, since otherwise you'd think they would be used more often than Floo Powder. After all, you need to *buy* Floo powder, you need a fireplace on the Floo network at each end, and you get all sooty and dizzy -- all disadvantages that a portkey avoids entirely. A portkey seems to be a kind of variation on apparation, as if it's a different application of the same principle of magic. We know that apparation is very difficult and dangerous; what if creating a portkey is similarly complex? My idea is that it is difficult to *learn how* to create a reliable portkey, but once you are an expert, it does not take much time to actually create one; similarly, if you take a portkey that was bungled by an amateur, it may even splinch you! This would help explain the terribly difficult logistics of arranging so many portkeys for the QWC, since only a limited number of witches and wizards would be qualified to make them -- they would have had to get stared very early (but then deliver them all to their assigned places close to the time they would be used to avoid their being accidentally moved beforehand). This theory would also help explain why Crouch!Moody could turn the TWC into a portkey on his way into the maze, since the difficulty involved is one of knowledge and ability, not of the time it takes to program one portkey. Barty Crouch Jr. was a very powerful and intelligent wizard; even if he did not already know how to create portkeys before disguising himself as Moody, I can readily believe he was able to learn it during his stay at Hogwarts. Although all this is pure speculation, I like it -- what do you think, Steve? Annemehr who *feels* like she just came up with this idea, but can't rule out the possibility she read it months ago and forgot... From innermurk at catlover.com Mon Jun 2 16:22:00 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 16:22:00 -0000 Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59155 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tepmurt9981" wrote: > Another character that is making me a bit nervous is Fudge. Someone in > such an influential position who, as of the end of GoF, seems to have his head > buried permanently in the sand. Fudge has a few "issues" to work out before > I'll trust him, personally. He managed to convict Sirius, w/o so much as a > priori incantatum. I innermurk would like to reply: Do we know that Fudge convicted Sirius? I thought he wasn't yet Minister of Magic when that happened. In GOF we find out Bartemius Crouch (who is the one Sirius said put him in Azkaban without a trial) was slated to become the next MoM, but then got shunted aside and Fudge was the one who was elected. This was after the trial of his son, which happened AFTER Sirius was put in prison. So, I've always thought we didn't know who the MoM of the time was. Even so, it was Crouch who put Sirius away, and authorized all those Unforgivables to be used and etc.... Not that that excuses Fudge for his actions now, but he was hardly responsible for what happened to Sirius earlier. innermurk From emeleel at juno.com Mon Jun 2 16:25:04 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:25:04 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another Dementor question Message-ID: <20030602.114125.-712431.1.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59156 On Sun, 01 Jun 2003 01:32:04 -0000 "maidne" writes: > Did anyone else get the impression that the dementors were somehow > targeting Harry? The first one he sees, on the train, tries to > enter the compartment that Harry is in. Then on the quidditch field they > are all standing in the middle of the field looking up at Harry. > Why would they not be roaming around among the screaming, excited fans, > soaking up all that emotion? And then finally, at the lake, Harry, > Hermione, and Sirius are all there and incapacitated, but Harry is > the one the dementor reaches for and almost kisses. Am I reading > too much into this? I think the one on the train just lucked up in finding Harry and all his "delicious" emotional pain. On the Quidditch pitch, I think they knew that Harry had lots of dark emotional pain that they could feed off of and they went straight for him. Harry's pain would be a lot more satisfying to these dark creatures than all the excitement of hundreds of students, because the students' emotions would be in positive mode. Now, as for the lake scene, I'm not too sure. Maybe since Sirius did manage to stay sane, even though he is emotionally scarred from 12 years in Azkaban, Harry is still a more appealing target. Or maybe they thought they needed to get him out of the way before "kissing" Sirius, although I see no indication that they are that intelligent. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From emeleel at juno.com Mon Jun 2 16:19:52 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:19:52 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Death of Book 5 Message-ID: <20030602.114125.-712431.0.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59157 Has anyone thought that maybe, just maybe, the death in OoP was not "horrible to write" because it's the death of a current (and presumably loved) character, but instead "horrible" because she chose to write a nasty, dark, awful torturous death for someone that we may or may not know yet? It's my understanding that the books are supposed to get progressively darker, and this would fit into it. I really hope not, since they are ostensibly children's books, but at the same time I don't want to see a loved character bite the big one, either! Maybe it's a combo deal - Voldie tortures Snape, trying to determine the truth about Snape, and ends up killing him either by accident or because he discovers that he's really DD's spy. Oh, the horribleness! Oh, the anguish for Snape-lovers! ;-) Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From emeleel at juno.com Mon Jun 2 16:41:24 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:41:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hopes for Book 5 Message-ID: <20030602.114125.-712431.2.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59158 On Mon, 02 Jun 2003 11:06:20 -0000 "Linda" writes: > > Chuck wrote: > > > Additionally, all that was needed was a line > > from Voldemort that Harry's blood was no good to him unless he had >> a certain level of skill as a wizard for his rebirth spell to work > and the purpose of having Harry in the Tournament is validated. > > That smells of rushed writing to me > > > Linda: > > I see your point here but I think if JKR had done as you > suggested it would have called into question yet another part of > canon. In the conversation Frank Bryce overhears at the Riddle > house, Wormtail tries to convince LV to use another wizard for his > rebirthing. Voldemort's reply is to admit that another wizard could > be used but that he wants the protection Harry's mother left in him. > There is no mention of any other factor. IMO, the implication is > that any wizard that considers LV as his enemy would have been sufficient > to make the potion work and Harry's strength has nothing to do with > it. Now, me, Melanie: Actually, in the Riddle House scene, LV doesn't tell Wormtail why he wants Harry's blood and no other; he's previously explained it and doesn't reiterate here. It's in the graveyeard scene that LV tells everyone that part of the reason he wanted Harry was for the protection from Lily. In addition, though, LV also wanted Harry's blood because Harry was the one who defeated him 13 years before. It's revenge, *and* he also wants to prove to his DEs that he is the ultimate winner even though Harry had initially defeated him. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From linlou43 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 2 16:54:59 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 16:54:59 -0000 Subject: Hopes for Book 5 In-Reply-To: <20030602.114125.-712431.2.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59159 Melanie wrote: > Actually, in the Riddle House scene, LV doesn't tell Wormtail why he > wants Harry's blood and no other; he's previously explained it and > doesn't reiterate here. It's in the graveyeard scene that LV tells > everyone that part of the reason he wanted Harry was for the protection > from Lily. > > In addition, though, LV also wanted Harry's blood because Harry was the > one who defeated him 13 years before. It's revenge, *and* he also wants > to prove to his DEs that he is the ultimate winner even though Harry had > initially defeated him. Lina: Thanks Melanie. I don't have the books with me (I'm at work) so I got a little screwed up on where in canon the info on this was. Anyway, I think you actually strenghthened my point. The canon actually details why LV specifically wants Harry's blood, and at no time is there any referance to specifically needing HIS blood in order for the potion to work or in fact, make LV stronger than using any other enimies blood(aside from his mother's protection). -Linda From emeleel at juno.com Mon Jun 2 17:00:29 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 12:00:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore...evil? Message-ID: <20030602.120029.-712431.3.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59160 On Mon, 02 Jun 2003 14:51:15 -0000 "Ersatz Harry" writes: > -- sometime in GoF, after the Daily > Prophet article on Hagrid has come out, Dumbledore briefly refers to his > own brother. He notes in particular that the brother had got into some > trouble for practicing improper incantations with a goat (or > something like that). The part about improper incantations is of enough > concern by itself, but the reference to a goat feels a bit, well, satanic. Actually, I get the idea from the text that Aberforth was, er, um, "fooling around" in some way with the goat. You know, like the jokes about shepherd and farmers? I think DD's brother was very much the one who was the family black sheep! Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Mon Jun 2 17:05:22 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 17:05:22 -0000 Subject: Portkeys Explained In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59161 I seem to remember a very nice theory on how portkeys work that doesn't require to make two cases out of them. IIRC, however, it was proposed by one of the currently active members (bboy?), so I'm stranged that no-one has brought it up recently. Then again, maybe it has been brought up and I missed it - been busy and haven't been paying all the ttention I should've. In any case, if it has come up in the discussion before, sorry in advance. The theory goes something like this: all portkeys are time activated. The time at which they activate is precise to the second. BUT, once they have been activated, they don't go anyplace, are simply waiting for the trigger that will send them flying. If you will, the magic goes from passive wait to active wait at a specific point in time, but it is still a wait. What triggers the teleportation magic is human contact, but obviously only if the portkey is active. Or, looking at it from the other way round, both conditions need to be set at the same time to "fly": someone touching it after the proper time. When that happens, everyone touching the object gets ported. Why do things so complicated? In fact, it is very reasonable, since it allows big flexibility in the use of portkeys. If you need mass transit, it has to be set at a time *after* everyone is touching the object. Imagine, if not, the troubles at the hill. When going to the Quidditch final, there are 9 people at the hill wanting to be portkeyed half way across the country. If one of them touches the object just a moment too soon, all the others get stranded. And 9 people with big backpacks are going to have trouble managing to touch the boot at the same time. In this case, it is better to have everyone touching it *before* the time comes, so when the time does come, everyone is already touching it and thus everyone gets ported. Compare it to the arrangement that Harry and Cedric do to touch the cup. Now imagine how difficult it would be if nine people were involved. On the other hand, if what you need is a fast exit ready to go someplace, but you don't know when you'll be free to go, you make the portkey activate a couple hours in advance, and whenever you're ready you simply touch and get portkeyed. In conclusion, IMO there is only one working to portkeys - time activation with human contact trigger. Oh, and it seems logical that after being transported, you need to stop touching before it can work again. That way, if there are multiple stops in the portkey, you are not taken directly to the last, but are allowed to drop it in the way, do something and then continue the journey. > Alon states: > > The problem I have with the portkey is that it would seem stupid to > > make the TWC-Portkey a two-way object. If I'd been Harry or Cedric, > > I would take the TWC along with me while exploring (maybe just too > > much roleplaying on my behalf). Winner's cups are normally heavy and unyieldy. Real life isn't like RPG, were the shape of the object isn't taken into consideration (if you can lift it, you can carry it is the rule in AD&D). I should know, I used to carry along all sorts of weapons and treasure... but had no backpack. We never made an issue of it. Harry and Cedric have no easy way of taking the cup with them, and they might need their hands in a hurry, so it is better to drop it. > > That, or > > the 'added waypoint'-theorem, or the idea of a safe-catch... Either > > way, it was quite foolish of Crouch/Moody, Peter, and Voldemort ;) I'll go into this in detail further down, but lets just say that giving an enemy a retreat line isn't foolish at all. The badger is most dangerous when its back is against the wall. > Annemehr: > As for why the Cup transports Harry back to Hogwarts, two > possibilities have been mulled over during my time on the list. > > One says that Dumbledore originally made the Cup a portkey to > transport the winner to the entrance of the maze, so the audience > would see who had won. The idea is that Crouch!Moody merely > *inserted* a stop at the graveyard, to take Harry there first. This > idea is beautifully logical, but two objections make me disbelieve > it. For one thing, there is no good reason why Bagman would not have > told the champions this while he was explaining the task, There are very good reasons: 1) they don't need to know it - the cup will work without them knowing, and its a nice surprise for the winner not to have to crawl back through a *maze* after winning. A sort of treat, if you will. 2) Crouch might not now at all - it could be just Dumbledore's idea. 3) All the time during the tournament, the champions have been given minimun information about the tasks. They get told to expect enchantments and creatures, and that it will be a maze (and the order in which they enter). That's it. A detail such as "Oh, and when you touch the cup you'll be portkey'ed to the entrance" is really irrelevant when compared to "Expect Blast-ended Skrewts", but as always they're left to discover that for themselves. > and secondly, > Crouch Jr., under the Veritaserum, says that he "turned the cup into > a portkey," which I take to be literal truth. Originally it was speculated that Crouch didn't know that the cup was already a portkey (this ties in with (2) above), but raises the problem of how the ghosts in Voldemort's wand knew. The logical thing to asume is that he was told by Dumbledore to turn it into a portkey (the original one, the one to the outside of the maze), and that he knew this would be the case, and duly informed Voldemort of this. And added the extra step when no-one was looking to closely - but the original was still there, probably even hidding the fact that there was an intermediate step (I believe magic enchantments can be felt by powerful wizards - sort of how you can tell an object is teeming with energy). > The other possibility, which is what I believe, is that Crouch Jr. > put both stops in for a reason. There have been discussions as to > why he did this, and two possible reasons are usually put forth. Ummm... there is one last reason put forward, the one defended by the MDDT, that the portkey was planned or at least allowed to be a last line of withdrawal for Harry, in case killing him was proved to be impossible once again (fourth time and counting). Read all about it in MAGIC DISHWASHER - post 40044. People always think that this is a bad move for Voldemort, since he could kill the brat - but could he? From Voldemort's PoV, it's nowhere obvious that this is the case. He couldn't kill him when Harry was a baby, and he was at the top of his powers. He couldn't kill him while possesing another wizard, sionce the protection was still present. He couldn't kill him with a bloody big snake under his control. From Peter's and other's accounts, Voldemort might also know that Harry has also faced giant spiders, hundreds of dementors, dragons, werewolves, etc, etc. Killing the brat isn't easy. In fact, it is downright difficult (and dangerous). What if the potion *doesn't* give Voldemort the protection? What if he is still unable to touch him? Better have a way of getting rid of the brat that doesn't take half his DEs with him. What Voldemort wants is to resurrect. He believes that the potion will give him a body again, from which to continue his search for immortality (fat chance, according to MD - there's a flaw in the potion, but we don't really need to go into that now). He also needs to make a show of power in front of his DEs. This, however, doesn't require the death of Harry - Harry fleeing works just as well, since it is obvious that the winner of the GG (Graveyard Gathering) is Voldemort. He's got his DEs in line (those that weren't already in line - to whit Avery, *the only one of the newly arrived DEs that is crucio'ed*), he's got his body back, and has Harry flee - payback, since all Harry did was make him flee. That was possible thanks to the portkey back. And Voldemort also has an advantage - he's used Harry to feed information to Dumbledore. Or rather, missinformation, as MD believes - and logically so (but I would say so, wouldn't I?). Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, MDDT, warming up for a comeback From gandharvika at hotmail.com Mon Jun 2 17:21:30 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 17:21:30 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Hating Potter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59162 Hating Potter (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Getting Better All The Time_ by the Beatles) This has absolutely *nothing* to do with the recent thread! Dedicated to Catherine McK...dig your filk! Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle13.html Draco (Crabbe and Goyle): I'm hating Potter all the time That day on the train to our school (The first time we met) My hand in friendship he refused (No, I won't forget) He turned me away (aaah) I'll make him pay (oooh) If it's the last thing that I do (Do, do) I have to admit that I hate Potter (Potter) With Ronald Weasley at his side (I hate that git, too) I have to admit that I hate Potter (Potter) He has no proper wizarding pride The friend of Mudbloods, Saint Potter On Gryffindor's team as Seeker Oh, It makes me fume That he gets a broom When I know that I am better I have to admit that I hate Potter (Potter) With that stupid scar on his head (And what's up with that?) I have to admit that I hate Potter (Potter) I wish that one day he would drop dead Hating Harry Potter all the time I'm hating Potter all the time (Boy, does Draco hate him) I'm hating Potter all the time (Boy, does Draco hate him) My father told me not to show My hatred when others think that he's some sort of a hero It's not prudent and I know I shouldn't But the thought of him ticks me off so I have to admit that I hate Potter (Potter) That Harry Potter thinks he's cool (Because he's famous) I have to admit that I hate Potter (Potter) I hope the Dark Lord will return soon Hating Harry Potter all the time I'm hating Potter all the time (Hate him with a passion) I'm hating Potter all the time (Hate him with a passion) Hating Harry Potter all the time -Gail B...who promises to be more careful with her proofreading before she clicks the "Send" button. Did I goof up this time? Gahhh! I'm pressing the "Send" button now! _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From innermurk at catlover.com Mon Jun 2 17:24:40 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 17:24:40 -0000 Subject: Why then? Portkey issues (WAS:Hopes for Book 5) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59163 > > Chuck: > > Additionally, all that was needed was a line from > > Voldemort that Harry's blood was no good to him unless he had a > > certain level of skill as a wizard for his rebirth spell to work > > and the purpose of having Harry in the Tournament is validated. > > > > > Chuck continues in his new response: > > > > .... Justify Harry being in the Tourney. Voldy just has to > > say, "The blood of a foe isn't good enough. It has to be a foe > > that's been challenged. That's grown as a wizard. The TWT gave > > Harry the skills to make my rebirth possible," blah, blah, blah. > > This is the "Luke - you must face Vader again before you are a Jedi" > > argument. Harry's blood - Not good. Harry the powerful wizard > > blood - Now cooking with gas! With the added bonus of Voldy > > now "inheriting" some of Harry's magical protections (Voldy can now > > touch Harry). > > > > ...edited... > > > > Chuck > > bboy_mn responds: > > Sorry Chuck, but I don't buy it. On the other hand, it is a nice > concept. It could be like a magical adrenaline factor, at the point of > Harry winning the tournement, Harry is PUMPED UP magically, > psychologically, physically, and biologically. All his energy > (magical, physical, and psychic) is flowing at full force thereby > making his blood an extra powerful agent for the potion. > > I can see that as a possible concept, but I don't see it as a likely > concept. But, of course, that is nothing more than my opinion. I > suspect there are others who will find your concept very appealing. > > Just a thought. > I innermurk would like to say: What if it's not HARRY that needs the time to grow? I've lurked through most all the portkey debates smiling when I saw everyone argue about why Moody didn't turn Harry's toothbrush into a portkey. Or why they had to wait until the tournament. Voldemort says in GOF that he's not strong enough to make it on his own yet, and Wormtail has to nurse him back to health. I'd always assumed the timing of the portkey was for Voldemort to be able to gain the level of strength he needed to go through with the potion to get his body back. If he hadn't been strong enough maybe he would've died at the bottom of that cauldron. Then again, maybe he just had to wait until he could hold his breath that long. Innermurk From manawydan at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 2 18:10:11 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 19:10:11 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] various musings on education References: <1054551988.4617.54339.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <005101c32932$359581c0$5f4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 59164 Catlady wrote: >I believe that all the magic children, whether Muggle-born or >wizarding born, get an invite to Hogwarts. That would be 1000 kids at >Hogwarts, as JKR stated in an interview, to account for a wizarding >population around 20,000, to maintain the wizarding economy that we >have seen. My multi-campus theory explains how there can be 1000 kids >at Hogwarts like JKR said and only 280 at Hogwarts Castle as we have >seen in the books. I say, Hogwarts at the castle is the original and >most prestigeous campus of the Hogwarts systems and is called just >"Hogwarts" like UC Berkeley is called just "Cal". There are two or It's interesting that we have come up with different solutions to the problem which flow from our different conclusions about the population of the WW - you've gone for the smaller end and a multi-campus system while I prefer the higher population theory but alternative methods of education for the majority of children! I suspect that canon is never going to help us out on this one but I can see the elegance of your theory while not agreeing with it :-) Meanwhile SophineClaire wrote: >I think language skills are an important part as to whether students >get a letter to such and such a school. Considering what we have seen >in the Beauxbaton student scenes in GOF, it appears that they >communicate to each other in French and I'm making the assumption >that many of their classes are taught in French while the spells >still remain JKR's form of Latin. I know we hear Drumstrang students >speak english, but would that have anything to do with KarKaroff >possibly being a little 'encouraging' in that direction. An interesting suggestion. But does it also suggest that there is a school for every language? Or even every European language? Even the (muggle) UK has four living (more if you count revived) native languages on top of English - conceivably the WW has even more! Though although Hogwarts is located in Scotland, it's neither a Gaelic nor a Scots-language school Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 2 18:46:59 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 18:46:59 -0000 Subject: Portkeys Explained In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59165 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > > ...edited out previous posts... > > Annemehr: > > ...edited... > > ... The idea is that Crouch!Moody merely *inserted* a stop at the > graveyard, to take Harry there first. bboy_mn: One quick note on 'inserting' a destination, while a very minor point, I think someone else had a better idea. His/Her theory was that putting a destination enchantment on a Portkey is like wrapping it in paper. When you unwrap it, that is, activate the destination, it's like taking one layer of enchanted wrapping paper off the object. That means the the first destination arrived at, is the last 'layer' added to the object. In the computer world we refer to that as FILO (First In, Last Out; or alternately, Last in, First Out). Example: I want to go to the petrol station, the grocer's, and the bank; so I put the bank on first (my last destination), add the grocer's, than add the petrol station. That puts the petro station on top, and when they are activated, it's petro first, grocer second, and the bank is last. Like taking layers of wrapping paper off a present. A minor point, but I think logically, layers make more sense than inserting something in the middle. > > The other possibility, which is what I believe, is that Crouch Jr. > put both stops in for a reason. ...two possible reasons .... > > ..., after killing Harry, Voldemort intended to stage an invasion of > Hogwarts, .... (the other) ... to transport > Harry's dead body to the feet of Albus Dumbledore ... to announce > Voldemort's triumphant return .... > bboy_mn: The 'invasion' idea is intriguing, but I'm with you, if Voldemort knew about the return trip and had a purpose for it, it was to send Harry's body back. It's clear he intended to kill Harry, and what more dramatic way to announce his return than by send back the body of the wizard who orginally defeated him. Let's remember that the war was not and will not be fought by battalions of soldiers facing each other on the battle lines. It is a war of terror, stealth, spys, and trickery. The uncertainty of not knowing where Voldemort is or what he is going to do next, is certainly more powerful and destablizing to the wizard world than seeing him marching down the street. At least when you see him face to face, you can stand and fight, or run away, but if Voldemort makes his power known without this presents being know, that creates a tremendous sense of powerlessness and helplessness amoung the citizens of the wizard world. > Now, WHILE we're on the subject of portkeys, ...edited... > > A portkey seems to be a kind of variation on apparation, ... a > different application of the same principle of magic. We know that > apparation is very difficult and dangerous; what if creating a > portkey is similarly complex? My idea is that it is difficult to > *learn how* to create a reliable portkey, but once you are an > expert, it does not take much time to actually create one; > similarly, if you take a portkey that was bungled by an amateur, it > may even splinch you! ...edited... I like it -- what do you > think, Steve? > > Annemehr bboy_mn: Well, I do like that idea now that you mention it, or at least I like part of it. I still don't think it is enough for me to abandon my 'Two Stage' theory, but you could have a point. If we look at the evolution of magical transportation, I suspect Floo Powder came first. It's dependance on physical objects like the Floo Powder, the need for a Floo Network, the need for fire and/or fireplaces, plus the discomfort, dirt, and soot, make is seem very primitive. The next stage of development would be Portkeys, a substantial improvement over Floo Powder and the first step toward totally wizard self-contained travel (apparation). It deals with direct point-to-point travel rather than trying to find the right gate (fireplace) amoung the hundreds of grates wizzing by. Note that when Harry exited the Floo stream, it was because he consciously desired to exit the Floo stream. Of course, his mispronunciation or 'Diagon Alley' didn't help, but he exited the Floo stream at the exact moment that he told himself he wanted to be out. When done right, a portkey eliminates any chance of error. Far more flexible and reliable. Apparation is the final and most advanced stage of travel. Wizard have finally separated themselves completely from the need for enchanted physical object, and are now traveling on their magical intent and their own enchanting magical power. But with the increased flexibility and independance, and complete reliance on the wizard himself, comes an increased element of danger. Great risk comes from muddled intent, or a break in concentration at the moment of apparation. I think this muddled intent and break in concentration are why you can't use apparation to transport another person (my theory). Imagine a mother who decides to take her 4 year old for ice cream. She picks him/her up and is about to apparate when the child sees a toy it wants. Now the mother's magical intent is corrupted by the childs counter intent; the mother intends one destination and the child intends another. Knowing what we know about apparation, that is without a doubt, a very dangerous situation. Back to Portkeys. My point above is that I think advanced research in Portkeys eventually lead to Apparation. They are connected. So while I won't abandon my two stage theory of creation, I do like the added idea that a botched portkey bewitchment can add a definite element of physical danger to the process. That would certainly discourage your average Joe-wizard from attempting it. I thought it was just difficult, but thanks to you, I now know that it is difficult and DANGEROUS. bboy_mn From grace701 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 2 18:50:28 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 18:50:28 -0000 Subject: *Fears* for Book 5 In-Reply-To: <9c.31d6823e.2c0c1c63@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59166 Oryomai wrote: >Some of my fears to add: > -Rita Skeeter and what she's going to do to Hermione. The whole "capturing her and keeping her in a jar" thing is *not* one of Hermione's best ideas I'm afraid. > -Hagrid and his "I-shouldn't-have-told-you-thats". I have to agree with you on these two Oryomai. Here are mine: ~What will happen if Dumbledore leaves, or gets taken out of, Hogwarts ~That HRH, Lupin, Sirius and Snape die (maybe even more, but I can't think now) ~Harry is sent to Azkaban or St. Mungo's ~Neville's parents may have a setback ~Hermione's parents will die before us ever really getting to know them or just getting to know them ~Snape, Lupin, or Sirius are traitors Greicy, who think there's more, but can't think right now From sfpeterso at yahoo.com Mon Jun 2 18:04:12 2003 From: sfpeterso at yahoo.com (Scott Peterson) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 18:04:12 -0000 Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most? In-Reply-To: <9kk69h+e6lb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59167 Barty Crouch, Jr. is the one I would not like to meet in a dark alley. As it was left at the end of GoF, he had been administered the dementor's kiss, but did he die? Did the dementors let him leave? Was he still being guarded by someone? Or is he just a soulless servant of Voldemort now? That must have been an unsatisfying kiss for that dementor since he didn't seem to have a soul during his stay at Hogwarts. I wonder if we will see Barty Crouch, Jr. again? To my recollection, he is the only person who has had his soul removed. What kind of havoc will an evil, soulless man wreak on the WW? *Shivers* From yellows at aol.com Mon Jun 2 18:58:44 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 14:58:44 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Death of Book 5 Message-ID: <9d.39f24bd7.2c0cf864@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59168 In a message dated 6/2/2003 5:43:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, Tim writes: < > Remus Lupin, may be dead at his hands soon. If not in this book, > then later in the series for sure. Lupin's only real personal enemy > (besides Voldemort) suddenly developing a shiny, silver appendage > can't be a good thing for his life expectancy, can it?>> Eek! I can't believe I didn't even think of this. You've all probably been discussing it and I just missed it somewhere. :) I'm trying to imagine the death being someone other than my guess (Dumbledore). Some of them do work for me. Hagrid, for instance, *is* an expendable character, in my opinion, and his death *will* be very emotional for most readers. But Lupin, because of his lack of play in GoF, may not be a terribly emotional death for the majority of readers. We simply don't know him well enough. So my questions are: Wormtail's silver hand will most likely be important in the next book, but what will it do? Is the major death we're all fearing going to be Lupin's? Will that be anti-climactic, since many of us are expecting a character who has been there since day one, or will it be just as terrible as JK Rowling promised? Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yellows at aol.com Mon Jun 2 19:02:15 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 15:02:15 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Evil Fat Lady!! (well, not really) and spying art Message-ID: <180.1b12946d.2c0cf937@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59169 In a message dated 6/2/2003 5:45:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, Nellie writes: < > Violet who shows up in the fourth book. Interesting that we were > supposed to meet the first truly evil female in GoF. Also worth > noting that she's seen in her frame in the room adjacent to the great > hall (perhaps the room with special magical powers that JKR would > visit?) winking at Bill Weasley. (hmm?)>> I think Violet will play an important role as well. Though I can't place my finger on it, something about the Fat Lady carousing so often with her in GoF made me uncomfortable. I found myself questioning whether the Fat Lady has good judgement about who can be told important secrets, like the password to Harry Potter's common room. Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From persimmon76 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 2 19:08:15 2003 From: persimmon76 at yahoo.com (persimmon76) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 19:08:15 -0000 Subject: Portkey problems Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59170 I've read with interest the debates on portkeys and other wizarding/witching forms of transportation. The time-activated/touch- activated summary made sense to me, but it doesn't quite answer the problem of the TWT portkey. It clearly can't be time-activated, because there would have been no way to predict how long it would take Harry to get through the maze. So let's rule that out. It seems to have been touch-activated to transport someone from the maze to the graveyard. The cup wasn't pre-programmed/enchanted to take *only* Harry - had that been the case, Crouch!Moody wouldn't have been so concerned about getting Harry to the cup *first*. Whoever touched the cup first would have gone to the graveyard. Harry and Cedric, touching the cup simultaneously, were both transported. For me, the real question is how Harry used the same portkey to get back to Hogwarts. I assumed the "shadows" of James & Co. that emerged from Voldemort's want as a result of priori incantatem somehow contrived to re-activate the portkey for the return trip. After all, they detained Voldemort and the Death Eaters after the connection was broken. Voldemort's face was "livid with fear" (strange image!), and if he perceived the shadows to be a threat, it seems plausible that they had powers of some description - say, powers to re-activate the portkey. I reject the "two-way portkey" idea because when Harry is returned to the maze, he clings to the cup (and Cedric's wrist) for an indeterminate period of time until Dumbledore convinces him to let go. If the portkey shuttled people back and forth between Hogwarts and the graveyard, Harry would have been sent back to the graveyard directly. The portkey is for one-way transportation. Of course, this is wild speculation. On the first read, I tend to cheerfully go along with JKR with a shrug ("Oh, um, okay. You're the author."). Subsequent readings are more careful and analytical - but JKR is not above making mistakes, leaving loopholes, and contradicting herself. I would venture to guess that as a group we know more about JKR's books (of course I'm referring to those that have already been published, before you jump all over me) than she herself does! Speculation and analysis are terrific fun, but until the end of Book 7 there's only one person who sees the Big Picture. I trust her; I'm happy to hang on for the ride - but it'll always be fulfilling to spot the problems and inconsistencies in the aftermath. :) -Persimmon From yellows at aol.com Mon Jun 2 19:12:33 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 15:12:33 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Death of Book 5 Message-ID: <14f.1faaae91.2c0cfba1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59171 In a message dated 6/2/2003 12:45:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, Melanie Ellis writes: < > truth about Snape, and ends up killing him either by accident or because > he discovers that he's really DD's spy. Oh, the horribleness! Oh, the > anguish for Snape-lovers! ;-)>> :) Now, this makes sense to me, as well. We know that something's got to happen with Snape. Is he spying or not? We can't seem to agree on that. But, the word from Dumbledore is that he *was* spying before, at least. Voldemort could easily decide to kill Snape -- ooh! And maybe the kids will try to save him at the last minute because they realize Snape was a good guy after all, but the kids won't make it and they'll have to watch Snape die a horrible, nasty death. Wow! That would be exciting! (and sad -- I love Snape) Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yellows at aol.com Mon Jun 2 19:17:09 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 15:17:09 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: *Fears* for Book 5 Message-ID: <30.40345d0b.2c0cfcb5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59172 In a message dated 6/2/2003 2:51:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, Greicy writes: > <<~Snape, Lupin, or Sirius are traitors>> I love Sirius. He's one of my favorite characters. But, honestly, every time I see him on the page I shudder and fear that that's the page where I'll learn he's really a bad guy. Is it the way he looks? The way he acts? Are we getting hints that he is bad, or are we getting a message that we shouldn't judge a book by its cover? :) I hope it's the latter. Sirius is my hero. Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dorigen at hotmail.com Mon Jun 2 19:33:23 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 19:33:23 +0000 Subject: Speaking of Wormtail and his silver hand ... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59173 I wonder what will happen the next time he tries to transform. Will he have a silver rat's paw? Or will the appendage interfere with his transformation? It will certainly make him easier to notice (and possibly to find, especially by Voldemort should the occasion arise). Of course, the substance the hand is made of may not be silver; it may be orichalcum or some magical metal (but probably not mithril, because the Estate of J. R. R. Tolkien might raise a stink). Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 2 19:39:51 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 12:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What HP Character Scares You Most? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030602193951.60226.qmail@web21008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59174 Scott Peterson wrote: Scott wrote: Barty Crouch, Jr. is the one I would not like to meet in a dark alley. As it was left at the end of GoF, he had been administered the dementor's kiss, but did he die? Did the dementors let him leave? Was he still being guarded by someone? Or is he just a soulless servant of Voldemort now? That must have been an unsatisfying kiss for that dementor since he didn't seem to have a soul during his stay at Hogwarts. I wonder if we will see Barty Crouch, Jr. again? To my recollection, he is the only person who has had his soul removed. What kind of havoc will an evil, soulless man wreak on the WW? ME: I don't think we'll see Barty again. You really do have to have a soul in order to be evil. A fanatic believes to the deepest regions of his heart and soul in his cause. I think a souless person would be just a useless automotive not serving anybody or caring or feeling or really reacting. Just breathing, eating (maybe) and surviving a while. Probably not very long either. No. Barty is out of the picture. The scariest person to me is gonna be one we haven't met yet. It's the evil you don't see that is hardest to defend against and our author always has some people new in her books. The second scariest person is Percy. He can be very cold and unfeeling and is extremely ambitious. They said he was getting a hard time over his boss's disappearance at the end of GoF. If his career in the Ministry all of a shudden hits a totally unfair snag over that affair, it is not impossible for him to be swayed to the other side by his ambitions and because of his position in the Wesley family, he could be very, very dangerous. I don't think he is presently evil at all but, well, things change! Huggs Becky Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 2 19:47:25 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 12:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: *Fears* for Book 5 In-Reply-To: <30.40345d0b.2c0cfcb5@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030602194725.7262.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59175 Yellows wrote: I love Sirius. He's one of my favorite characters. But, honestly, every time I see him on the page I shudder and fear that that's the page where I'll learn he's really a bad guy. Is it the way he looks? The way he acts? Are we getting hints that he is bad, or are we getting a message that we shouldn't judge a book by its cover? :) I hope it's the latter. Sirius is my hero. Me: Don't worry about Sirius. Or about some of the most grisley speculations we've read. Our author isn't that melodramatically morbid. There WILL be some tragic events. It started with Cedric last book. But I don't think this series will ever be one of those horrible Greek tragedies like a lot of people want to see! The thing about Sirius not being bad is he looks far too much like a bad guy. His appearance, slicing up the fat lady, etc. The history of this series, and I don't think it changed when Black came along is things are never like they appear. So far our surprise bad guys never looked like bad guys. While that may change with future characters, I cannot believe Black or Snape will ever turn out to be a bad guy. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Mon Jun 2 21:22:57 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 21:22:57 -0000 Subject: Speaking of Wormtail and his silver hand ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59176 Janet Anderson wrote: > I wonder what will happen the next time he tries to transform. Will > he have a silver rat's paw? Or will the appendage interfere with his > transformation? It will certainly make him easier to notice (and > possibly to find, especially by Voldemort should the occasion arise). That's actually a fair point I haven't seen raised before (which doesn't mean it hasn't, though, so sorry if this has been discused to death). My guess - and it is indeed a guess because we have little cannon to base ourselves on - is that as a rat he'll have a silver paw. Now, this raises interesting issues in animagic in general. What we have indeed discused previously is those marks that the animals seem to have - McGonagall's cat form has marks of her glasses areound the eyes, and so does Rita's beetle form. Now, we know that the ministry makes an issue of jotting down the detailed description of the animal, which I always took to mean that the animal had a unique apearence that could be jotted down. I had, however, not considered the fact that we know (from Peter's missing finger) that the animal forms reflect the persons form. My previous theory stated that both McGonagall and Rita were wearing the same sort of glasses they are wearing nowwhen they performed their first animagi change, and they were stuck with them, but I've changed ideas know. If they took off the glasses (and other jewelry; interestingly, the clothes don't seem to be reflected), they'd get a slightly different animal, just as Peter got a different animal (missing one finger) after he bit his finger off. Why then make such an issue of recording the animal descriptions? Well, for one thing, the animal doesn't change that much - faint marks around the eyes is about all we know, and missing bits and pieces of both bodies. Possibly similar markings in appropiate places can be extrapolated from canon (rings, earings, necklaces, etc). Now, lets go back to the part explaining the legal procedure. Hermione says that all the details of the animal form are carefully recorded - this obviously is a little useless if such characteristics will change depending on what the caster happens to be wearing - or does it? As I mentioned, most of the changes seem very small. McGonagall remains a tabby cat, with or without glasses, I think we can asume. And maybe what the ministry records is precisly that fact - the characteristics that remian constant, and maybe asks the new animagi to transform with a variety of objects (lipstick, earings, bracelets, etc) to record what changes those objects cause in the animal, thus documenting the change with the zeal that Hermione suggests. > Of course, the substance the hand is made of may not be silver; it > may be orichalcum or some magical metal (but probably not mithril, > because the Estate of J. R. R. Tolkien might raise a stink). > > Janet Anderson I myself do not think that the stuff is silver. That doesn't mean that it doesn't have silver properties (including the, so far, uncanonical deathly effect on werewolves). But the fact is that it came out of a wand, and thus I am more inclined to think that it is simply magical energy made solid (more or less) but still in raw form. My canon for this? Well, we are told that at the start of the spell, the stuff is liquid. Applying liquid silver to a human body isn't a pleasent experience (melting point: 980?C), but receiving the hand was, for Peter - he stops crying. Of course, a point might be made that the "molten silver" actually solifies into a hand, but we're still in a problem - silver isn't a articulated, and yet the hand is funtional. All this can be, of course, explained by magic, but then, I go all the way and assume it's magic all of it, not a combination between magic and metal. Further canon I can present: we have seen the silvery stuff before - specifically Dumbledore conjures a silver bird out of his wand to send a message to Hagrid in GoF, after he arrives at the spot were Crouch Sr. found Harry and Krum. There is nothing to indicate that that bird was made out of silver or that indeed silver was involved in some way; rather, it hints that magical energy is white, bright and sparkly, as molten silver. In conclussion, I think that, unless canon says otherwise (which would require two things, werewolves to be hurt by silver in JKR's world and a Peter-Lupin confrontation, allthough if the first is true, the second might be a given), I think I'll continue to assume that the hand is made out of magical energy. This may or may not be relevant. Time will tell. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From metal_tiara at hotmail.com Mon Jun 2 21:40:53 2003 From: metal_tiara at hotmail.com (sophineclaire) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 21:40:53 -0000 Subject: various musings on education In-Reply-To: <005101c32932$359581c0$5f4d6551@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59177 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: > An interesting suggestion. But does it also suggest that there is a school > for every language? Or even every European language? Even the (muggle) UK > has four living (more if you count revived) native languages on top of > English - conceivably the WW has even more! > > Though although Hogwarts is located in Scotland, it's neither a Gaelic nor a > Scots-language school The students aren't speaking Shakespearean English either, considering the oft made statement that wizarding culture, in the UK at least, is stuck in the middle ages. I suppose another issue that this brings up is the place of the school in wizarding culture. Could a school dictate the language spoken by the wizards within that district? How would Muggleborns who do not speak the accepted language of the school adapt if at all. Which makes me think of Drumstrang and their no muggle-borns policy. If tthe school sticks to one language, Drumstrang probably gets away with that policy by saying that muggleborns who do not speak that language are not allowed to entered while Wizarding children who are already in the know have studied the Drunmstrang choosen language for most of their lives. I disagree with the comment that the WW has even more languages as a pure wizarding community. Yes, there will be introduction of new languages by muggleborns and half and halfs, but if the population numbers have been calculated are correct, I think the WW is limited to a main language per school district then you have your dialects and other languages that people may speak in the home or in the wizarding equivalent of ethnic communities come in afterwards at much smaller numbers. -SophineClaire This essay makes and interesting point about Hogwarts at the end... http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/essay-durmstrang_lang.html From linlou43 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 2 22:03:33 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 22:03:33 -0000 Subject: Speaking of Wormtail and his silver hand ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59178 Janet Anderson wrote: > > Of course, the substance the hand is made of may not be silver; it > > may be orichalcum or some magical metal (but probably not mithril, > > because the Estate of J. R. R. Tolkien might raise a stink). Grey Wolf replied: > I myself do not think that the stuff is silver. That doesn't mean that > it doesn't have silver properties (including the, so far, uncanonical > deathly effect on werewolves). But the fact is that it came out of a > wand, and thus I am more inclined to think that it is simply magical > energy made solid (more or less) but still in raw form. > > My canon for this? Well, we are told that at the start of the spell, > the stuff is liquid. Applying liquid silver to a human body isn't a > pleasent experience (melting point: 980?C), but receiving the hand was, > for Peter - he stops crying. Of course, a point might be made that the > "molten silver" actually solifies into a hand, but we're still in a > problem - silver isn't a articulated, and yet the hand is funtional. > All this can be, of course, explained by magic, but then, I go all the > way and assume it's magic all of it, not a combination between magic > and metal. > > Further canon I can present: we have seen the silvery stuff before - > specifically Dumbledore conjures a silver bird out of his wand to send > a message to Hagrid in GoF, after he arrives at the spot were Crouch > Sr. found Harry and Krum. There is nothing to indicate that that bird > was made out of silver or that indeed silver was involved in some way; > rather, it hints that magical energy is white, bright and sparkly, as > molten silver. Me(Linda): Just wanted to put in my two knuts with another example of "silver" as the color of magic. The contents of the pensieve in Dumbledore's office are described as "a bright, whitish silver" and when Dumbledore syphons the thoughts from his mind and places them in the pensieve, his wand comes away from his temple with a strand of the same substance clinging to it. Now that makes me wonder. Could it be that JKR is making a connection between the actual thoughts of wizards and the magic they perform? Is the magic that she is writing about simply a form of telekinesis? Mind over matter as it were? Since JKR mapped out the basic story line before even SS/PS were published, I would think that she might very well have the premise behind her world's brand of magic worked out as well. Opinions? -Linda From jodel at aol.com Mon Jun 2 22:19:24 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:19:24 EDT Subject: Hermione's age revisited. Message-ID: <175.1b70c65f.2c0d276c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59179 Alon states: << Note the wording: 'the people who ARE TURNING 11'. Seeing as term starts at the 1st of September, Hermione's birthday is the 19th of that very same month, and McGonagall seems likely to send the Hogwarts-letters in the summer (yes, the letters are sent suspiciously close to Harry's birthday, but it also makes /sense/ to send acceptance-letters in the summer before enrolment) Hermione would have been 11 already when she recieved the letter, and would in fact turn 12 a mere two weeks after start of term according to the 1979-proponents. It just doesn't make sense to me... >> Yes, except that this gets shot down *if* Angelica Johnson is in the same year as the twins. She turns 17 in October and they don't turn 17 until the following April. They were born in *different calendar years*, how can they be in the same *class* year if all the kids born in a given calendar year start school the same year? Does it ever say that Angelica is a 6th year or are we just assuming that? If she is a 7th year there is no problem. However, and more to the point, by October, Cedric Diggory has turned 17 and is able to put his name in the Goblet. And yet he *is* refered to as a 6th year. This does not make sense unless he either started school a year later than normal due to ill-health or some other factor, or if he had to wait a year in order to start school because he hadn't turned 11by the time the school year began. Given these two examples, plus Hermione, we have an ireconcilable contradiction on our hands. The only way to reconcile it is to assume that one or the other statement was an error and the problem is to figure out which. (Marcus Flint was stated as being 6th year in the first book, but this has since been corrected to 5th year in order to have him still in school in PoA.) So. Either the cut-off date is September first, children in a given class year were born in either of two partial calendar years and someone who ought to know better wasn't paying attention when they state Hermione was born in 1980, or Cedric Diggory was a 7th year rather than *6th* (which is beginning to resemble the use of the term "20" for the degree of credibility it carries.) -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Mon Jun 2 22:19:31 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:19:31 EDT Subject: The Purpose of the Weasleys (was; Saving every Sickle) Message-ID: <97.398f4315.2c0d2773@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59180 greatlit2003 says; >>I am frustrated with this family's values. They are good people, but the parents seem to be living in their own little world.<< I have a lowering feeling that the Weasleys are eventually going to be the vehicle whose purpose is to teach Harry a few hard truths. Because you are absolutely right, and I do not think it is accidental. For all that Harry thinks it is paradise on earth, the Burrow is not the happiest of households. (Don't run away with that statement. The Weasleys aren't going to make the top ten list of dysfunctional families in childrens' literature any time soon, either.) They also serve as a glaring example of how woefully ill-prepared Dumbledore's forces are for another round against Voldemort. Arthur's self-indulgence in his facination with Muggle technology has *not* served his family well. Molly's mis-applied ambitions (and Molly has a lot of ambition, it's just not in the Slytherin style) which she has displaced onto her children -- because her husband refuses to budge from his "dream job" -- is raising havoc. She has Percy's life all mapped out and he bought the package. See where it got him. She is trying to force-feed the twins the same template and they aren't having any, with gradually escalating hostilities, which is disrupting the whole dynamic of the family to the point that Ron is getting completely lost in the scuffle. Molly seems only to see him as a blur within the twins' sphere of influence and treats him accordingly, despite the fact that he is a full two years younger and not actively engaged in their antics. And Ginny is being strangled by Molly's apron strings. None of the younger five kids seems to be properly prepared for a world which includes Voldemort in the equation. Nor do Molly and Arthur for all of that. They've gotten soft over the past 13 years. Lost focus. Gotten careless. And I think we are all going to be witnesses to the train wreck. But probably not in the 5th book. Inside the structure of the series I think we are going to watch Harry come to the conclusion that he can't get by by trying to be "like" anyone he has met. Which means that even if the consequences are not fatal, he is going to see the consequences of the different methods all the people he looks to for guidance use for coping with the world, and realize that these methods will not work *for him*. He is going to see that Sirius is impulsive and his temper gets him into situations that are avoidable. He is going to see that Molly's rules don't have all the answers, and that other people manipulate the rules to their own advantage and to your cost. He will see that Arthur's good intentions and self-indulgence are no protection. -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Mon Jun 2 22:19:29 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:19:29 EDT Subject: Shapeshifting (was; Polyjuice potion and animal transformations) Message-ID: <14.128cccce.2c0d2771@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59181 Helen asks: << Really, why didn't Hermione get to go with Harry and Ron? It was not, in anyway, particularly important to the plot of CoS. Much in the same way the polyjuice potion itself was a dead end. Malfoy was not the heir of Slytherin... but the polyjuice potion in CoS set up the use of the polyjuice potion in GoF. Perhaps Hermione's unsuccessful animal transformation was a setup for another type of animal transformation? >> Almost certainly, but in the short run, the purpose of tying Hermione to the hospital wing for several weeks straight was that Harry and Ron could then reasonably be in the hospital wing visiting her and on the spot to hear Myrtle's tantrum on the floor above when Ginny tried to flush the diary -- enabling Harry to find it. There isn't much of a way that they would have known about that if they were all able-bodied in the Griffindor common room. In the long run, yes. I am pretty sure that some sort of animal transfiguration is going to come up again in the series. We've been handed some form of shapeshifting in every adventure so far, I suspect that there may be other forms we haven't gotten to yet. in PS/SS we only saw McGonagall shift from her cat form, I can't off the top of my head recall any other shapeshifting, unless you count QuirrellMort's hybrid form due to being possesed. In CoS we get the Polyjuice incident. Minor results in this book for the amount of attention drawn to it, but it set the stage for later use. In PoA we reexamined the Animagus transformation to major effect. We also get the werewolf change. This may come up again. Almost certainly will come up again whenever Lupin returns to the stage. In GoF we got the Polujuice reprise and the incident in passing of Draco the Amazing Bouncing Ferret. Forcible, imposed animal transfiguration may very well be brought back as a major plot point in a later book. If it follows the current pattern I'd guess book six. If we have a pattern here, Polyjuice may play a minor part in book 5. We also saw the Veela transform from beautiful women to harpy-like monsters. Whether that will recur in another book is anyone's guess. (Can a quarter-Veela transfom? Will Fleur be tending bar at the Three Broomsticks?) And Rowling may yet have some more forms of shapeshifting to throw at us. -JOdel From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Tue Jun 3 00:33:14 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 20:33:14 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Saving every Sickle (Was: Percy and the Weasleys' finances) Message-ID: <42.39197dc8.2c0d46ca@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59182 In a message dated 6/2/03 2:21:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hieya at hotmail.com writes: > Perhaps the Weasleys expect their children to intuitively understand > that they don't value money. But kids should not be expected to just > understand that their parents are acting in their best interest. Ron > certainly doesn't understand. All he knows is that he has to wear > girly dress robes. After all this babbling, my final point is that > the Weasley parents should wake up and understand that while they > might be perfectly content wearing rags while saving the world, they > should not expect their children to do the same. > I think that it's a great thing for the Weasley family to do. *Everyone* should teach their children that money isn't the most important thing in the world. The Weasleys are teaching their children to value intangible things more. They may not understand it now, but someday they will. How do we know that the Arthur and Molly haven't told their children that? Maybe they have told them that a thousand times. I think making Ron wear "girly" robes is a way of showing him that looks don't matter. *That* is massively important as well. You wouldn't want Molly to be like my mother, would you? "Oh, aren't you going to wear any make-up? I didn't know that you were so *unconcerned* with your appearance." (And that is said in the most disrespectful voice ever.) Ron and the rest of his siblings are learning an insanely valuable lesson, and they will appreciate it later...as it is with so many things in life. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ --Go PTHS Warrior Marching Band! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 01:06:46 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 01:06:46 -0000 Subject: Me And My Baby (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59183 Since Hagrid may not make it past Book Five, I figure I'd better submit this rather light-hearted filk now, before tragic penumbrae attach themselves irrevocably to the house of Rebeus (although I think Sirius Black is a far more likely Book Five casualty) Me And My Baby To the tune of Me And My Baby from Chicago (the stage version, not used in the film - if you only know the film, this song is in a fast ragtime tempo similar to They Both Reached For the Gun) Dedicated to Haggridd THE SCENE: HAGRID'S hut. Enter HAGRID, carrying what appears to be a chicken egg. He has just returned from Knockturn Alley, and won the egg - which the original owner swore spent considerable time underneath a toad ? in a game of wizard poker. HAGRID is sure the egg will produce some fabulous Fantastic Beast HAGRID Me and my baby My baby and me She's just as rabied As rabied can be What if I find That I'm breaking the law? Battle lines I'll redefine And fight for baby tooth and claw She's kicking her shell now And won't it be fun All my friends tell now The hatching's begun Tell the DRC she's just a Doxy 'Cause I've got my baby My fierce little baby Look at my baby and me Look at my baby My baby and me A beast not a being >From bestiaries. Do not tell MOM For there's something to hide It could mean jail If wings and tail Within my hut I let reside If she's obscurer And unclassified I will procure her An unabridged guide Though I lost Norbert Here's my new pur-tee It's my little baby My mean little baby Look at my baby and me Look at my baby My baby and me Phasing the world Interestingle-y Nothing can stop her So nobody try 'Cause baby wrecks And has five "X" And incidentally, so do I! Get out of our way, folks And give her some space Watch how she burbles Before she gives chase This is my mission To keep her happy Me and my baby My manticore baby My `mantula baby My Vipertooth baby My Occamy baby My Quintaped baby My Basilisk baby My Blast-Ended baby Look out for baby and me! (The egg hatches. To HAGRID's infinite disappointment, his chicken egg produces an actual chicken. Sighing deeply, he feeds the chick to one of his hippogriffs). - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From ajlboston at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 01:39:07 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 01:39:07 -0000 Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59184 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "innermurk" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tepmurt9981" > wrote: > > Another character that is making me a bit nervous is Fudge. > Someone in > > such an influential position > I innermurk would like to reply: > Do we know that Fudge convicted Sirius? > Even so, it was Crouch who put Sirius away One point is that Fudge says in the Three Broomsticks that he was the first to arrive at the scene of destruction, when Sirius was there laughing at what we now know was Peter's handiwork. Who knows what he might have done, seen, covered up, or said he saw? (There was no trial, but presumably he reported to the Ministry...) A.J. From ajlboston at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 01:55:39 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 01:55:39 -0000 Subject: Saving every Sickle (Was: Percy and the Weasleys' finances) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59185 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > They didn't just pick Egypt off of a map. Bill works there, > remember? I also recently made the connection between Ron's description of the skills of ancient Egyptian magic users (what hexes were set to befall Muggles entering the tombs!) and Parvati's boggart as a mummy... could be nothing, but why a mummy? and she was sorted as a brave Gryffindor unlike her sister... Just a thought. Who knows if that will be a useful skill in the future (or if Dean and the hand will be... etc.) A.J. From dorigen at hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 02:13:48 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 02:13:48 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Saving every Sickle (Was: Percy and the Weasleys' finances) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59186 >I think that it's a great thing for the Weasley family to do. *Everyone* >should teach their children that money isn't the most important thing in >the >world. The Weasleys are teaching their children to value intangible things >more. Yes, but they also need to consider the feelings of teenagers, for whom looking bad or different is a painful and traumatic experience. If Molly actually couldn't afford new robes for Ron, that's one thing (and that's the impression I got). If she actually could have gotten him something better and made him wear "girly" robes to make a point, that's something altogether different, rather heartless in my opinion, and likely to embitter him and make him turn away from the very values she thinks are important. If you had the kind of parents who made you eat things you detested because "that's all there is and we can't afford to waste food," you would at least know they weren't just being arbitrary. But if you were told you had to eat it "because children are starving elsewhere," did you actually learn anything besides resentment? If what the Weasleys learn is that poverty is no obstacle to a loving home and family, they will probably be safe from Voldemort's influence (even Percy, who in my opinion is the weak link). If what they learn is that their parents' political values are unpleasant and there are other values elsewhere which are much more pleasant, they'll be much more vulnerable to people like Fudge and the people on the Hogwarts Board of Governors who caved in every time Lucius Malfoy sneezed. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jun 3 03:20:40 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 03:20:40 -0000 Subject: Saving every Sickle (Was: Percy and the Weasleys' finances) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59187 Janet: > > Yes, but they also need to consider the feelings of teenagers, for whom > looking bad or different is a painful and traumatic experience. If Molly > actually couldn't afford new robes for Ron, that's one thing (and that's the > impression I got). If she actually could have gotten him something better > and made him wear "girly" robes to make a point, that's something altogether > different, rather heartless in my opinion, and likely to embitter him and > make him turn away from the very values she thinks are important. If you > had the kind of parents who made you eat things you detested because "that's > all there is and we can't afford to waste food," you would at least know > they weren't just being arbitrary. But if you were told you had to eat it > "because children are starving elsewhere," did you actually learn anything > besides resentment? Again, maybe if Ron hadn't behaved like a brat in that sequence, it could have turned out differently. Maybe Molly even does that Severing Charm to help him take off the lace, instead of having him do a bad job of it later. But he DID behave like a brat, and behaved shamefully for someone who knows his parents have trouble making ends meet. I don't think Molly was trying to prove a point, but I don't think she had the time nor the inclination to deal with Ron pouting about it either. In the stories, we've seen the kind of parenting where the children get everything they want. Exhibit A is Dudley and Exhibit B is Draco. Save me from parenting where children get everything they want. Darrin -- Exhibit A would be a great name for a band From nellie_beandust at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 03:22:30 2003 From: nellie_beandust at yahoo.com (Nellie) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 03:22:30 -0000 Subject: Evil Fat Lady!! (well, not really) and spying art In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59188 Hi again! Kelly wrote: >I think that a person does not get into a House common room unless s/he can give the >proper password. Simple as that. You're right. Sirius didn't know the password, so she didn't let him in, which was the right thing to do, and what happened? Sirius slashed her to shreds. And he got away with it! He doesn't even feel guilty about it! He doesn't mention it in the shrieking shack (at least I don't think he does, I only skimmed it just now) and its only later in the hospital wing that Dumbledore cites his attack on the Fat Lady as an example of how Sirius "has not acted as an innocent man." If I were the Fat Lady, I'd be a little upset. First of all, I don't even get a name, I'm known simply as "the Fat Lady". That would probably make anyone mad after awhile. Then, this guy brutally attacks me, and then he gets off scotch free! (And he gets the reader sympathy!) (I wonder if she knows about Dumbledore and HRH's role in setting Black free there must be paintings in the hospital wing or Professor Flitwick's office who would have told her) Yup, I'd be pretty upset if I was her. Upset enough to consider spying for the other side, even. Which is where Violet would come in. According to a website called the Anglian Gardener, (http://www.angliangardener.co.uk/) (I just did a quick google search) the flower Violet is: A flower mainly of ill. Wearing it around your neck can prevent drunkenness, but be careful as it is also believed to encourage fleas to move into the home. (my comment: fleas, little things no one would notice, but are everywhere and can do a great deal of harm ) Violets originally warned of epidemic or death. (my comment: she turned up in GoF, right at the beginning of the supposed second Voldemort War a warning?) Blooming in the autumn the small dark green leaves and beautiful purple flowers require shaded moist ground that has been undisturbed for some time to flourish. Napoleons favourite flower. (comment: a rather ambitious conqueror, just like some others we've read about) Violet could be Voldemort's faithful servant at Hogwarts, and always has been. Maybe she was painted by Salazar (I don't think he's really evil though) or Grindelwald, or Riddle/Voldie himself. The resident evil painting. And the Fat Lady's getting all chummy with her, now that she feels betrayed by the good side. Maybe she'll have to choose between what is right and what is easy. Maybe she's already chosen. Sheesh, I just can't seem to let this go, even though it's completely ridiculous! Heh. --Nellie (Who would really like to know what sort of things Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw have guarding their common rooms.) From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 03:12:07 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 03:12:07 -0000 Subject: Saving every sickle (was: Percy and the Weasleys' finances) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59189 <>> The Sergeant Majorette says: I agree with those who applaud the Weasleys' no-nonsense (and very British) approach to their circumstances, but I think there is a very simple and pragmatic reason for the continued emphasis on Ron's feelings on this matter. I believe he is being set up for a major story arc. After all, the main theme of OoP is the "choice between what is easy and what is right". Otherwise, why our Ron's continual and unattractive whining ("why is everything I own rubbish?")? JDR (who never bought a new textbook in her life when a used one was available, even when someone else was picking up the tab -- willful waste makes woeful want!) From grimreaper1337 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 02:51:42 2003 From: grimreaper1337 at yahoo.com (grimreaper1337) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 02:51:42 -0000 Subject: The Death of Book 5 In-Reply-To: <14f.1faaae91.2c0cfba1@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59190 I think the person no one really suspects dying is Dobby. Dobby is a big fan of Harry, I think he also became a friend of Harry in Goblet of Fire. JKR mentioned that she enjoyed writing the person that would die a horrible death in Order of the Phoenix, I think she probably liked writing Dobby in Chamber of Secrets and Goblet of Fire. Other people like Hagrid, Snape, Lupin, and many other characters could be the big death, but they are just way to easy to predict. We all know how clever JKR is, no one would suspect Dobby of being the one to go. Grimreaper From gopotter2004 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 01:56:21 2003 From: gopotter2004 at yahoo.com (gopotter2004) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 01:56:21 -0000 Subject: Spiders Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59191 Hagrid seemed very attatched to our little baby Harry. Is it possible that he asked Aragog to have some spiders watching over Harry at the Dursley's house, and reporting back to him? Harry comments on the spiders in the cupboard with him in the very beginings of the first book (PS/SS). Spiders would seem to make great spies... small, rather normal to see around. (Other interesting bits about Spiders that I think we should look out for: Ron's gigundo fear of them. Also, the answer to the Sphinx's riddle was Spider.) Becky, who never kills spiders after reading James and the Giant Peach. From yellows at aol.com Tue Jun 3 00:47:23 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 20:47:23 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More thoughts on the Book 5 Death Message-ID: <3f.1d92625a.2c0d4a1b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59192 Okay, I've got to voice my little epiphany. :) Some of you will probably say, "I *told* you that already!" But it all made sense to me only this afternoon. :) I was, until this afternoon, a firm believer that Dumbledore is the one to go in the next book. Not only because of the frequent hints in GoF about him getting old and weak, but also because Harry's mentor simply must pass on so that Harry can take over the role of Voldemort's most feared wizard. But, as I thought it over, I realized that Dumbledore is a very passive wizard. I don't see him dueling or having it out with anyone who stands in his way. He passively shares his wisdom wherever he goes and people both respect and fear him for that. He reminds me a little of Yoda (in a tall, not-green sort of way). And Yoda died a peaceful death. I think Dumbledore will, as well -- by the end of the 6th book. Then, Harry's rise to win over Voldemort can happen in the final installment. So I've given up on watching Dumbledore meet his maker in the 5th book. It's too early, and, by what I infer from JKR's statement, it will be too peaceful to be the "horrible" death she promised us. Now I'm trying to decide: Hagrid? Lupin? Snape? :) Who's going to go? I can't make up my mind! Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gopotter2004 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 2 22:09:41 2003 From: gopotter2004 at yahoo.com (gopotter2004) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 22:09:41 -0000 Subject: Polyjuice Potions... Dead or alive? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59193 Now, I realize that Crouch, Jr. had to keep Moody alive to get hair and ask him questions and such like that. But was it indeed necessary to keep him alive in a potion sense? Couldn't you just keep a few finger nails (already dead anyway) of anyone dead, and pop them in for a quick-use potion? Sure, you would have a limited number of times to make the potion before using up the supply, but how confused would Harry be if he met his father, or mother? He would probably know it wasn't them, but he would want so badly for it to be, it would probably throw him off pretty badly. Just a thought. Becky From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Jun 3 04:25:09 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 21:25:09 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Saving every Sickle (Was: Percy and the Weasleys' finances) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <170173605112.20030602212509@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 59194 Hi, Monday, June 02, 2003, 8:20:40 PM, darrin_burnett wrote: > But he DID behave like a brat, and behaved shamefully for someone who > knows his parents have trouble making ends meet. > I don't think Molly was trying to prove a point, but I don't think > she had the time nor the inclination to deal with Ron pouting about > it either. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: while Ron was certainly no prince in this scene, neither was Molly very mature in her reaction. There was no reason for her to rub things in by saying how she had picked out nice robes for Harry, especially to match his eyes. She could have taken Ron aside and spared him the embarrassment in front of his friend. Sometimes I wonder about Molly's adoration for Harry... -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From silmariel at telefonica.net Mon Jun 2 19:07:16 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (silmariel) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 21:07:16 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another Dementor question In-Reply-To: <20030602.114125.-712431.1.emeleel@juno.com> References: <20030602.114125.-712431.1.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: <200306022103.29528.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 59195 Melanie L Ellis: > Now, as for the lake scene, I'm not too sure. Maybe since Sirius did > manage to stay sane, even though he is emotionally scarred from 12 years > in Azkaban, Harry is still a more appealing target. Or maybe they thought > they needed to get him out of the way before "kissing" Sirius, although I > see no indication that they are that intelligent. I was convinced they were intelligent until you raised the subject. Let me explain. If DD thinks they can change sides, I see minds able to betray. We don't know if they have a concept of loyalty, but they practice lies. They can manage abstract concepts as agreements (you keep them in azkaban, so you can nourish of them). They know what a frontier line is (you stay out of Howgarts). Those are examples. I hope I have not made it a mess, English is not my mother language. First post. silmariel. From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 3 04:29:10 2003 From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 04:29:10 -0000 Subject: Philosopher's Stone Edition Question. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59196 I just came across this article- http://uk.news.yahoo.com/030603/80/e1ep0.html Of course I can't afford nor do I need such an edition, but I did notice the slight difference in the shape of this book and the current UK printings of PS, most notably because I have copies in both formats. The older edition (at least I'm assuming it's older) is about an inch smaller both (tall and wide) and slightly larger(thicker). I was give this smaller edition by a friend, and although it is the UK edition it came from Germany (being the English edition sold there)...when did the format change, and was it before or after the other books came out, because I have yet to see CoS or PoA in such an edition. Mine which is not a first edition (although I'm not sure how one knows) has a 10 9 at the bottom of the publishing info page. Does this mean it's the 10th printing of the 9th edition or something of the sort? I'm confused... Scott From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Tue Jun 3 04:49:50 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 04:49:50 -0000 Subject: Philosopher's Stone Edition Question. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59197 Scott: Mine which is not a first edition (although I'm not sure how one knows) has a 10 9 at the bottom of the publishing info page. Does this mean it's the 10th printing of the 9th edition or something of the sort? Me (Bill): The first printing of any edition will have a line with: 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 on the publication data page. When more books of that edition are printed, the leftmost number is removed, thus the fifth printing of that edition would be: 10 9 8 7 6 5 I just looked at my books. For PS I have: 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 For CoS I have: 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 For PoA I have: 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 For GoF I have: 10 9 8 7 6 So my copies are the 14th, 3rd, 1st and 6th printings, respectively. As far as I know, all of the HP books are still on their 'first edition'. Changes have been made between printings (usually correcting typos, etc.) but none of the changes have been extensive enough to justify the term 'second edition', which today usually means that the text has been heavily altered. Bill From ajlboston at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 05:12:37 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 05:12:37 -0000 Subject: Transfiguration Question In-Reply-To: <34E2798C.4FEF65BD.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59198 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > In a message dated 5/31/2003 6:30:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, Corinth writes about Draco the former ferret: >Maybe someday he'll be able to do nothing at all but squeak and scurry about the floor. This is really minor, but it always bugged me, so: ferrets don't squeak-- they're weasels, not rodents-- they say 'dook dook'or 'wook wook!' (On that note, wild rats are not grey-- the blue mutation only came about in 1993 or so-- wild rats are agouti, which is a tricolor ticking of brown, black, beige hairs. And they do not have paws; they have little hands.) Anyway! JKR is not expected to know every nonmagical creature she writes of firsthand. >:) A.J. From lilpurplealdy at netscape.net Tue Jun 3 05:24:01 2003 From: lilpurplealdy at netscape.net (Juliet) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 05:24:01 -0000 Subject: Evil Fat Lady!! (well, not really) and spying art In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59199 Nellie: > (I wonder if she knows about Dumbledore and HRH's > role in setting Black free there must be paintings in the > hospital wing or Professor Flitwick's office who would have told > her) As far as I can remember, there's no mention of paintings in the Hospital Wing(*waits for someone to pop up with canon and prove her wrong*), and we've visited that place a fair number of times. As fun as this theory goes, one thing should be different in order to support it more: Dumbledore's office. Dumbledore's office is lined with paintings, is it not? If Dumbledore had no paintings in his office, then you could argue that he knows the art is dangerous and thus doesn't have any in his office for private reasons. But...this is not the case. There are paintings all over the castle...it would seem like too Huge of a Mistake if they turned out to be able to be used for evil. > If I were the Fat Lady, I'd be a little upset. First of all, I > don't even get a name, I'm known simply as "the Fat Lady". Lol...I'm getting an amusing image of the Fat Lady announcing(after, of course, revealing her evil nature) that she will no long be known as the Fat Lady...she is now Pink Satin(dun dun dun!) ~Aldrea From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 06:17:03 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 06:17:03 -0000 Subject: More thoughts on the Book 5 Death In-Reply-To: <3f.1d92625a.2c0d4a1b@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59200 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > > ..edited... > > So I've given up on watching Dumbledore meet his maker in the 5th > book. ...edited... > > Now I'm trying to decide: Hagrid? Lupin? Snape? :) Who's going to > go? I can't make up my mind! > > Brief Chronicles bboy_mn: Well, I've been kind of ignoring this thread because I felt like I weighed in on it too many times before, but I'm caught up on most of the subjects I really like, so here I am again. This death is really a tough call. I could see Hagrid dying; I won't like it, but I could see it. The only thing I can't handle is Hagrid being killed by his own mother. That would just be too sad. I don't think Molly Weasley will die either. Mostly because I think the would be too emotionally tramatic for both readers and for the characters. That, in my opinion, would be just about the worst tragedy that could possibly happen, and I don't think I could personally take it. The grief would just be too overwhelming for me. Dumbledore will die, but it's too soon. Sirius and Remus are also a tough call. Sirius is Harry connection to his parents. It's the person he knows who was closest to his parents, and he is Harry's guardian. I feel like he needs to be there for Harry when this is over. Remus, by JKR's own statement, is her favorite character, so I can't see her knocking him off. Snape... maybe... again another tough call. Neville... dead but not yet. Neville is a very important character. Outside of H/R/H, Neville probably gets more face time than anyone. Plus, we have learned something significant about Neville's parents, and I firmly believe there is a connection between what happened to Neville's parents and Harry. One possibility is that that (Neville's house) is where Harry was during the missing 24 hrs, and that is the reason the DE's thought the Longbottoms might have some inside information about Voldemort. Neville will die, but not before he proves himself a powerful and courageous wizard, and when he does die, it will be a hero's death. I'm a big Neville fan and can't wait for him to prove himself. So what DO I think will happen? I think a primary background character will move to the foreground in a manner similar to Cedric but too a larger degree. By that I mean, it will be a character that is already endearing to us, and he/she will become more so. They will move from primary background character to secondary foreground character. Let me define those- Primary Background Characters - Seamus, Dean Thomas, Creevey brothers, Crabbe, Goyle, member of the Quidditch team excluding Fred and George. These are people who get face time, spoken line, and whose presence is frequently acknowledge but at the same time aren't really important to the plot. Secondary Foreground Characters - Fred, George, Neville, Molly, Arthur, and similar... Charaters, who have lots of spoken lines, lots of face time, and who are important to the secondary plots and storylines. So who do I think it will be? One of the Creevey brothers. Colin Creevey has a stronger presence in the story than any other background character. Besides Ginny, how many other underclassmen can you name. None, I bet. It wouldn't take very much to bump him up into the next more prominent character catagory. That would make him much more endearing and well liked than he already is, and would make him ripe for an emotionally painful death. Also, there is the additional plot line added because of the surviving Creevey brother. I think the purpose of the Creevey brothers in the story is to die. Just a thought. bboy_mn From pen at pensnest.co.uk Tue Jun 3 08:06:03 2003 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 09:06:03 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Saving every Sickle (Was: Percy and the Weasleys' finances) In-Reply-To: <170173605112.20030602212509@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3850FC6C-959A-11D7-BD24-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 59201 On Tuesday, Jun 3, 2003, at 05:25 Europe/London, Susanne wrote: > > Monday, June 02, 2003, 8:20:40 PM, darrin_burnett wrote: > >> But he DID behave like a brat, and behaved shamefully for someone who >> knows his parents have trouble making ends meet. > >> I don't think Molly was trying to prove a point, but I don't think >> she had the time nor the inclination to deal with Ron pouting about >> it either. > > I've said it before, and I'll say it again: > > while Ron was certainly no prince in this scene, neither was > Molly very mature in her reaction. Perhaps she was embarrassed. Her son was rubbing in the fact that they were too poor to afford good robes, in front of their visitor. > > There was no reason for her to rub things in by saying how > she had picked out nice robes for Harry, especially to match > his eyes. > > She could have taken Ron aside and spared him the > embarrassment in front of his friend. > > Sometimes I wonder about Molly's adoration for Harry... > Cos, see, Ron has both his parents in a loving home, a family of his own, that kinda thing. Can't put a value in Galleons on it, but for what it's worth, Ron has it. Then there's this orphan... Pen From distractedone at comcast.net Tue Jun 3 06:03:50 2003 From: distractedone at comcast.net (Merlin) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 02:03:50 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Even More Likely Meaning of OOP (Not written by Derannimer) References: Message-ID: <000001c3299d$8741da30$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59202 > -- Tatumper said: > In response to Ethanol's post -- 54146 -- I have formed this brief > idea: it's true that the titles of previous books have all > represented problems for Harry, but it's hard to see how something so > pure as the phoenix could be one of Harry's problems. If Harry is the > heir of Gryffindor -- as possibly predicted by Professor Trelawney -- > the OOP could have been formed to in some way protect Harry, as the > possible bringer of Voldemort's complete and total downfall, from > harm. I think J.K. Rowlings may have already given us a clue as to what the Order of the Phoenix is in The Goblet of Fire Chapter 28 page 560. When Harry and Krum went to have their word in private, so that Krum could ask Harry about his relationship with Hermione Mr. Crouch stumbles out of the forbiden forrest mumbling and saying he needed to tell Dumbledore. Unable to get Crouch to move Harry tells Krum to stay with Crouch while he goes and gets Dumbledore. When Harry and Dumbledore return Crouch is gone and Krum is unconscious. Harry asks "should I go get someone?" "No" said Dumbledore swiftly. "Stay here." He raised his wand into the air and pointed it in the direction of Hagrids cabin. Harry saw something silvery dart out of it and streak away through the trees like a ghostly bird. That signal Dumbledore sent up the ghostly bird could that be the call for help of the Order of the Phoenix? Because Hagrid dropped whatever he had been doing and came running with his crossbow. "Merlin" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pen at pensnest.co.uk Tue Jun 3 08:10:34 2003 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 09:10:34 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hopes for Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59203 On Sunday, Jun 1, 2003, at 22:54 Europe/London, Anna Hemmant wrote: > > I've lurked and read with amazement at what some people have said > about JKR's skill at writing, or allusions to it in this thread. I > know you've all got valid points about the various things that you > don't want to see, but don't you trust JKR? I do. I trust that if she > does use something that we all feel now has been flogged to within an > inch of it's life now, then she's a good enough author that it won't > seem contrived. And it's not just the tight plots that I love her > books for; it's the language she uses, her sentance structure, the > way she expresses herself; it's delicious. Hem hem. JKR does write wonderfully - else we would not be here - but is not without flaw. My main hope for book 5 is that she has polished it. > So since we're all > actually here, and we spend so long each day talking and mulling over > what has happened and will happen, I think you should all know in > you're hearts that whatever the new book brings, it'll be a wonderful > read and we'll all hate anything that makes us put it down, and we'll > be saddened when we come to the ned of it, for it will be at least > another year before we get to read anything of the caliber again. Well, of course it'll be good. If it's as good as GoF we shall be happy. (If it's as good as PoA, we shall be ecstatic!) However, JKR is not the only provider of tight plots and exciting language. If you want a jolly good read, after OOtP and in between discussions thereof, try anything by Lois McMaster Bujold. Pen From anthill1989 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 05:42:21 2003 From: anthill1989 at hotmail.com (Annie Trimble) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 22:42:21 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Death of Book 5 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59204 Grimreaper wrote: >I think the person no one really suspects dying is Dobby. Dobby is a >big fan of Harry, I think he also became a friend of Harry in Goblet >of Fire. JKR mentioned that she enjoyed writing the person that would >die a horrible death in Order of the Phoenix, I think she probably >liked writing Dobby in Chamber of Secrets and Goblet of Fire. >Other people like Hagrid, Snape, Lupin, and many other characters >could be the big death, but they are just way to easy to predict. We >all know how clever JKR is, no one would suspect Dobby of being the >one to go. >> I agree, JK would not dare to knock off anyone too important, like Hermione or Dumbledore, but Dobby is not that important. The book can continue without him. It can't function without Harry's best friends. ANTHILL From kristen at sanderson-web.com Tue Jun 3 10:44:57 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (GKJPO) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 10:44:57 -0000 Subject: The Death of Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59205 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Annie Trimble" wrote: > > I agree, JK would not dare to knock off anyone too important, like Hermione > or Dumbledore, but Dobby is not that important. The book can continue without > him. It can't function without Harry's best friends. > > ANTHILL Two things: 1. Perhaps I'm missing something, but I believe I remember that this "fan of Harry" thing was an urban legend. As for a death "painful to write" (proven quote), I'm not sure that Dobby would qualify for that. 2. I think that with the nature of these books we must expect some of the "too important" people to die. If someone like Dumbledore does die (which I think very likely considering all the references to his age and look), it will be painful to all of us. If JKR keeps knocking off periperal characters we will not be satisfied with the series. After all, Dobby's death would certainly sadden Harry (do you think the Elf protection on death would be stronger than his mothers?), but not really cause him to rise above. I think that some of the main characters we know and love will have to be killed off. Consider that we're up to Book 5 of a 7 book series. We're just past the mid-point, and the bad stuff has just begun. I would say that if some major folks aren't killed off in book 5, they definitely will be in book 6 (truely, I'm not usually this bloodthirsty :). Kristen From queen_amidalachic at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 11:00:33 2003 From: queen_amidalachic at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 11:00:33 -0000 Subject: Even More Likely Meaning of OOP (Not written by Derannimer) + my theory. In-Reply-To: <000001c3299d$8741da30$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59206 Merlin Wrote: > That signal Dumbledore sent up the ghostly bird could that be the call for help of the Order of the Phoenix? Because Hagrid dropped whatever he had been doing and came running with his crossbow. Me: Well that's what I thought also, when this particular description was discussed on another forum. It could be a signal for the OOTP members. However, even if the OOTP is a group of people fighting against Voldemort, or whatever they do. I think that there is going to be an underlying meaning to the OOTP. I think that if you look deeper into the OOTP, it might be the reason why Voldemort had wanted to kill Harry in the first place. I for one think that Fawkes is in the centre of all this. I've made a theory a while ago. It may have some loopholes, since I can't be bothered figuring them out fully. *rolls eyes* Forgive me. Lol. So here it is, don't kill me: I've found interesting info on the phoenix. I was in a site exploring how the phoenix had been represented in different cultures. Not only does the phoenix symbolise Death an rebirth but It also: In China, Feng-huang, a bird that symbolizes the union of yin and yang, a sign of both peace and disharmony. http://www.phoenixpersonnel.com/html/mythology.html I find this interesting because It coincides with my theory that Fawkes is keeping the order between good and evil. Maybe the OOTP isn't a group of people... maybe it has something to do with Fawkes only. Think about it... why did Fawkes give two feathers in the first place. Harry represents: life and goodness. Voldemort: Death and evil. Both have different ideals which link to the phoenix in the way that Fawkes to Voldemort represents Immortality, and to Harry he represents courage and Bravery. And these two also displaying similarities... are opposites, like the ying and yang. I think Fawkes in the end knew that his feather would help create evil, so he gave another to balance it. It could be the reason why Voldemort wants Harry dead. With Harry balancing his evil Voldemort can never gain the amount of power is he ambitioned for. With Harry around he can't do all that he wants to do, always having the obstacle in his way. Getting rid of Harry, and hell will break loose. Well that my theory. A bit rusty. :D Maria. www.geocities.com/queen_amidalachic/ From lupinesque at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 11:57:40 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 11:57:40 -0000 Subject: Intrinsically Good magic, and motives over ends (Fwd from OTC) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59207 This OTChatter thread got into some very interesting on-topic philosophical musing, so I'm forwarding it here. The question was whether magic in JKR's universe is morally neutral (i.e., can be good or evil, depending on how it's applied) or there are some spells that are intrinsically good or intrinsically evil. David wrote: > >We haven't had much > > evidence of magic that's intrinsically 'good', either. > > > > Thoughts? Amanda wrote: > One. We have seen one very powerful example, referenced a couple of > times. Sacrifice. Sacrifice is intrinsically good? What about people who sacrificed themselves in order to steer a jet plane into a building? We may balk at calling their act self-sacrifice, because we have such positive associations with that term (Memorial Day speeches hailing those who made "the supreme sacrifice," e.g.), but self-sacrifice it was, and to my mind, it proves that sacrifice can be as powerfully evil as it is powerfully good. I think one can imagine an act that is purely good, but one would have to know the motives to judge. And if it's not motives but consequences that matter, I don't see how any act can be judged purely good or purely evil. Let's say Lily's sacrifice was pure love, unmarred by any other motives. Just the same, fourteen years later, Cedric Diggory died because her son lived. No Harry, no Harry in the TWT, no reason for Cedric to stray across the path of Voldemort. Yeah, Voldemort would probably have been in power for those fourteen years and heaven knows what would have happened to the Diggorys; maybe Cedric would've died anyway, when the DEs blew up his house when he was 5, say. But what we *do* know is that in *this* timeline, Cedric died because he had the bad luck to be in the same place as Harry Potter. So we may be able to say that on balance Lily's sacrifice accomplished more good than evil (though only the gods can know), but we can't say it accomplished only good. I wanted to write a whole Kantian counter-argument to this utilitarian approach, but my brain got tired. Anyone? Amy Z From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 12:49:29 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 05:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Saving every Sickle (Was: Percy and the Weasleys' finances) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030603124929.10525.qmail@web20007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59208 --- Janet Anderson wrote: > Yes, but they also need to consider the feelings of > teenagers, for whom > looking bad or different is a painful and traumatic > experience. If Molly > actually couldn't afford new robes for Ron, that's > one thing (and that's the > impression I got). If she actually could have gotten > him something better > and made him wear "girly" robes to make a point, > that's something altogether > different, rather heartless in my opinion, and > likely to embitter him and > make him turn away from the very values she thinks > are important. She did not give him "girly" robes to teach him a lesson. She got him really old robes. She said there wasn't much to choose from, and I have no reason to doubt her. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jun 3 13:00:29 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 13:00:29 -0000 Subject: The Value of A Knut (Was, Saving Every Sickle) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59209 Ron doesn't get it. You'd think he would, but he doesn't. Fred and George get it. They aren't expecting their parents to help them with the shop. They are trying to do it on their own. And one of the more touching quiet scenes in the books is in CoS, where George says, quietly, "This lot won't come cheap, Mum," referring to all of Lockhart's books. Molly says they will manage, but you can tell, George gets it. Ginny gets it. She is seen repairing her book in one scene in PoA. She doesn't share her insecurities with everyone, acting like a princess. She tells them to a diary, private thoughts. (so she thinks.) Ron doesn't get it. It is Ron who fires the first shots in the "dress robe" scenes in GoF. "You've got to be kidding," said Ron. "I'm not wearing that, no way." "I'll go starkers before I put that on." Then it's RON who covets Harry's robes, which were paid from money left to him by his dead parents. Molly took Harry's money and bought him something nice. And Ron still gives Molly lip after she explains - - IN FRONT OF HARRY -- that she had to buy them secondhand. No, I believe Ron is the immature one here. Molly's only sin is not having the patience to kindly deal with the brat. THEN, after Molly leaves, Pidgwigeon gets an owl treat stuck in his beak and Ron vents about, "Everything I own is rubbish." HELLO! THAT WAS A GIFT, YOU UNGRATEFUL LITTLE GIT! Sirius GAVE Ron a gift of an owl, saying, "It's my fault he no longer has a rat." Did Ron forget that there were three other people that needed dress clothes for that ball? Fred and George needed robes and Ginny needed a dress. We know from the writing in Fantastic Beasts that Ron has to share Harry's book because he blew his money on Dungbombs instead of a book because "Dungbombs Rule!" Ron is loyal, brave, and usually gets around to doing the right thing, which may seem like faint praise, but it's certainly more than a lot of people do. But he doesn't get how tough it is for his folks and hasn't learned to quelch his impulses. Time for Ickle Ronniekins to grow the hell up a bit. Darrin -- However, Dungbombs would be a great name for a band. From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 13:20:53 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 13:20:53 -0000 Subject: Do You Hear What I Hear? (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59210 Do You Hear What I Hear? (from CoS) To the tune of the Xmas carol of the same name. Dedicated to Catherine McK THE SCENE: The DADA office, at the end of Chap. 7, as HARRY serves detention with LOCKHART. LOCKHART Said young Harry addressing my fans "Do you hear what I hear?" In detention to address my fans "Do you hear what I hear?" HARRY A voice, a voice, that my bone marrow chills Crying out, "Let's rip and let's kill!" With intent that sounds rather ill (Segue to the end of Chapter 8, as the TRIO leave the Deathday Bash) RON & HERMIONE Said our Harry from the Death Day Bash "Do you hear what I hear?" He heard some weird voice talkin' trash We don't hear what you hear! Inaudible voices that sound malign They are not a real good sign Not for wizards or Muggle-kind (Segue to Chap 16, as HARRY and RON pry loose the paper held in HERMIONE'S stone-fist) HARRY Said Hermy off to the library "I now know what you hear" Here's a page she tore from library I now know why I hear! A basilisk that slithers through the wall I have heard its serpentine call I won't need to go on Haldol (Segue to the girl's restroom later in Chap 16, with HARRY, RON, LOCKHART & Mrytle) RON & LOCKHART Said our/young Harry to Moaning Myrtle "Is the Chamber door here?" "That tap don't work," replied Myrtle The Chamber door must be here! RON Then Harry spoke, it was a hiss to me But he said "Open Sesame" Now we go to rescue Ginny LOCKHART Listen I don't want to go here .. I don't want to go here .. I don't want to go here .. (Exit HARRY, RON & LOCKHART into the chamber entrance) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 13:48:55 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 13:48:55 -0000 Subject: Evil Fat Lady!! (well, not really) and spying art In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59211 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Juliet" wrote: > Nellie: > > (I wonder if she knows about Dumbledore and HRH's > > role in setting Black free there must be paintings in the > > hospital wing or Professor Flitwick's office who would have told > > her) > > As far as I can remember, there's no mention of paintings in the > Hospital Wing(*waits for someone to pop up with canon and prove her > wrong*), and we've visited that place a fair number of times. Not really cannon, but the movie does depict two paintings of hospital scenes in the hospital wing. But I'm pretty sure it's never been mentioned one way or the other in cannon. > > As fun as this theory goes, one thing should be different in order to > support it more: Dumbledore's office. Dumbledore's office is lined > with paintings, is it not? If Dumbledore had no paintings in his > office, then you could argue that he knows the art is dangerous and > thus doesn't have any in his office for private reasons. But...this > is not the case. Maybe because the paintings in Dumbledore's office depict former headmasters, they all understand the sacntity of his office and that what is said in the headmasters office stays in the headmasters office. > > There are paintings all over the castle...it would seem like too Huge > of a Mistake if they turned out to be able to be used for evil. > I don't think the paintings are "puposely" evil but that they are gossipy. Hence, at the end of PS/SS when Dumbldore comments that what happened to Harry is a great secret, hence the entire school knows. I have the feeling that much of the "rumour spreading" in Hogwarts orginates with the paintings, since they have privy to most everything that goes on there. On the other hand, the argument can be made that since the paintings have been hanging there so long, many may be totally disinterested in what's going on around them. Serena From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Jun 3 14:43:20 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 07:43:20 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Saving every Sickle (Was: Percy and the Weasleys' finances) In-Reply-To: <3850FC6C-959A-11D7-BD24-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> References: <3850FC6C-959A-11D7-BD24-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> Message-ID: <65210701385.20030603074320@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 59212 Hi, Tuesday, June 03, 2003, 1:06:03 AM, Pen wrote: > Perhaps she was embarrassed. Her son was rubbing in the fact that they > were too poor to afford good robes, in front of their visitor. Perhaps, but she could have avoided the whole dilemma by taking Ron aside earlier and explaining, instead of trying to sneak the "dress" in. Ron was just as embarrassed, and he's a teenager. They tend to be emotional and act immature, sometimes ;) Molly is the adult here, and made things worse, imo. > Cos, see, Ron has both his parents in a loving home, a family of his > own, that kinda thing. Can't put a value in Galleons on it, but for > what it's worth, Ron has it. > Then there's this orphan... Yes, sure, but there's no reason for her to rub things in the way she did. Ron has shared his family with Harry without a second thought, and I think he deserves a little consideration, too . I generally like Molly, but she, too, has her faults ;) (another example being the way she treats Hermione after falling for Rita's article) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jun 3 15:22:55 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 15:22:55 -0000 Subject: Saving every Sickle (Was: Percy and the Weasleys' finances) In-Reply-To: <65210701385.20030603074320@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59213 Sisklou: > > > Perhaps she was embarrassed. Her son was rubbing in the fact that they > > were too poor to afford good robes, in front of their visitor. > > Perhaps, but she could have avoided the whole dilemma by > taking Ron aside earlier and explaining, instead of trying > to sneak the "dress" in. > Ron was just as embarrassed, and he's a teenager. They tend > to be emotional and act immature, sometimes ;) > > Molly is the adult here, and made things worse, imo. Canon tells us that Ron doesn't know what dress robes are, which makes no sense, but it's canon. I mean, he has a father and five older brothers. At some point, he should have seen his dad or Bill or Charlie wearing a dress robe. I disagree that she was sneaking anything in. She went and got their stuff while they were enjoying themselves at the Quidditch World Cup and she dumped it all on their bed. She had to buy things for four of her own children, plus Harry and Hermione, AND get them all ready to go to the train. So, at the least, it didn't occur to her that it would be a crisis, and I'm sure it didn't occur to her that Ron would be such a brat. Now, I wish she would have suggested that Severing Charm, which she or Arthur probably could have done more neatly than Ron ended up doing. But then again, maybe she was too angry over the "I'll go naked before I wear those" routine to suggest it. > I generally like Molly, but she, too, has her faults ;) > (another example being the way she treats Hermione after > falling for Rita's article) Yeah, that's another case where canon doesn't make a lot of sense, especially after Molly has said to Percy that Rita makes up lies. My guess here is that Molly has grasped that Ron secretly has feelings for Hermione, and maybe figured out, or thought she did, that Hermione had feelings as well. And she got mad over Hermione's apparent switch. But, I don't approve of Molly's behavior there either. Darrin From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 11:10:18 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 11:10:18 -0000 Subject: Hopes for Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59214 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Pen Robinson wrote: > > Well, of course it'll be good. If it's as good as GoF we shall be > happy. (If it's as good as PoA, we shall be ecstatic!) > > Pen Yes, I'll be looking forward to quality writing as well... As for plotwise... I hope Sirius gets cleared. However, if that happens, I think Dumbledore dies or becomes otherwise unaccessible. Then again, Dumbledore HAS accepted his own death and is - probably - dying of old age as it is, so... -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 11:21:55 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 11:21:55 -0000 Subject: The Death of Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59215 Kristen: > I think that some of the main characters we know and love will have > to be killed off. Consider that we're up to Book 5 of a 7 book > series. We're just past the mid-point, and the bad stuff has just > begun. I would say that if some major folks aren't killed off in > book 5, they definitely will be in book 6 (truely, I'm not usually > this bloodthirsty :). > Albus Dumbledore. Hopefully Sirius will be cleared in return so Harry will have a free helper/advisor. Or Ron/Harry - as Trelawney's 'superstision' shows... Dobby? I think not. Dursleys? At least I think that Voldemort would be after getting rid of Harry's protection... -- Finwitch From galadriel1 at mail.charter.net Tue Jun 3 11:32:03 2003 From: galadriel1 at mail.charter.net (abhamghp) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 11:32:03 -0000 Subject: The Death of Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59216 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grimreaper1337" wrote: > I think the person no one really suspects dying is Dobby. Dobby is a > big fan of Harry, I think he also became a friend of Harry in Goblet > of Fire. JKR mentioned that she enjoyed writing the person that would > die a horrible death in Order of the Phoenix, I think she probably > liked writing Dobby in Chamber of Secrets and Goblet of Fire. > Other people like Hagrid, Snape, Lupin, and many other characters > could be the big death, but they are just way to easy to predict. We > all know how clever JKR is, no one would suspect Dobby of being the > one to go. I happen to completely disagree, respectfully. Yes, of course, JKR is very clever, which is exactly why Dobby won't die in book five. He's way too obvious, in my opinion, as is Colin Creevey. I don't believe either of these characters is so pivotal as to have been difficult to write their deaths. I also don't believe Dobby has endeared himself enough to the reader to be difficult to kill off. He's more annoying than anything, so people wouldn't be all that upset if he dies, (I dont think). The only reason I can think of that Dobby might die is that his importance in canon seems to be lessening. I would be more difficult to kill someone like Hagrid, because he is pivotal, he's the type of character who is very endearing to the reader, too. Think about it; Hagrid is the type of man who would sacrifice himself for the better of the community. I suspect this is exactly what he does. Just a thought. Galadriel From pkdailey at comcast.net Tue Jun 3 14:04:55 2003 From: pkdailey at comcast.net (Kathy) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 14:04:55 -0000 Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59217 > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tepmurt9981" > > wrote: > > > Another character that is making me a bit nervous is Fudge. > > Someone in > > > such an influential position I totally agree. I think that the "coward" that Voldemort spoke about in GoF may indeed be Fudge. Just a gut feeling, but he strikes me as the type. KD From emeleel at juno.com Tue Jun 3 15:47:06 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 10:47:06 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another Dementor question Message-ID: <20030603.104707.-919563.0.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59218 On Mon, 2 Jun 2003 21:07:16 +0200 silmariel writes: > > Melanie L Ellis: > > Now, as for the lake scene, I'm not too sure. Maybe since Sirius > > did manage to stay sane, even though he is emotionally scarred from 12 > >years in Azkaban, Harry is still a more appealing target. Or maybe they > >thought they needed to get him out of the way before "kissing" Sirius, > >although I see no indication that they are that intelligent. Silmariel: > I was convinced they were intelligent until you raised the subject. > Let me explain. If DD thinks they can change sides, I see minds able to > betray. We don't know if they have a concept of loyalty, but they practice > lies. They can manage abstract concepts as agreements (you keep them in > azkaban, so you can nourish of them). They know what a frontier line is (you stay > out of Howgarts). > > Those are examples. I hope I have not made it a mess, English is not > my mother language. First post. Me, Melanie again: Hmmm, I can't think of an instance where they practice "lies" especially since they don't speak. Can you elaborate? You may be at least partially right. I'm not sure what kind of "agreement" they have with the MoM about staying at Azkaban. The implication certainly seems to be that they have an agreement to stay there in exchange for feeding off the prisoner's souls. But they may be just as much prisoners as the inmates themselves. Something along the lines of "Stay here and you live and get nourishment. Leave without permission, and we'll kill you." (Assuming they can be killed.) I don't think they're all that intelligent, though, the more I think about it. They were easily fooled not once but twice by prisoner switches (Barty Crouch Jr and his mother; Sirius in dog form). I think the command to stay out of Hogwarts was akin to telling a dog, "You may not come in the house!" but they did it anyway when the temptation was too great, just like a dog might follow a cat into the house if he's chasing it. As for "betraying" and changing sides, it would be like tempting a dog away from his yard with a juicy bone. Yeah, they get nourishment at Azkaban, but Voldie can offer them treats beyond their wildest dreams. One hopes that the interments at Azkaban have slowed down since the Voldie power years, so they're probably getting hungry, and if he goes to them and says, "Look what I've got!" they'll come running. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Jun 3 15:51:37 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 15:51:37 -0000 Subject: Intrinsically Good (and evil) magic (Fwd from OTC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59219 Amy wrote: > Sacrifice is intrinsically good? What about people who sacrificed > themselves in order to steer a jet plane into a building? We may > balk at calling their act self-sacrifice, because we have such > positive associations with that term (Memorial Day speeches hailing > those who made "the supreme sacrifice," e.g.), but self-sacrifice it > was, and to my mind, it proves that sacrifice can be as powerfully > evil as it is powerfully good. I think that is a different issue to whether sacrifice is intrinsically good *magic*. However, we do have the example of Pettigrew's sacrifice of his hand in Voldemort's rebirthing spell to suggest that at least some lesser sacrifices can be turned to magical evil use. Part of the difficulty of this topic is the meaning of good and evil. If by 'intrinsically' good we mean that something is good despite the bad motive that uses it (think of the doctrine of the efficacy of the sacraments despite the quality of priests), or that it can't be used unless the motive is good (think of the Grail), then we are forced to think in terms of consequences. As Amy points out, taken across all consequences of an act such as a spell, we get lost in the complexity and interconnectedness of things. An alternative is to suggest that the good or bad are connected with the person who casts the spell, or the person who is the immediate object of the spell. Thus it might be that a defining characteristic of the Dark Arts is that in some magical way they corrupt the person who uses them, whatever the motive (now think of Sauron's ring). This would be quite distinct from the corrupting effect of all badly motivated acts. Or that sacrifice on behalf of someone is only good in its magical effects on them. If so that would imply that Pettigrew's sacrifice of his hand would work out for Voldemort's ultimate good (which might be quite different from what Voldemort thinks that good to be). Another point is the idea that magic implicitly involves intention, in which case it may be that some magic only makes sense if the intention is somehow good or evil. The Patronus might be an example of good magic of this sort, depending on what is really meant by a happy thought. David From MKELLER at SUNLINK.NET Tue Jun 3 11:29:10 2003 From: MKELLER at SUNLINK.NET (jksunflower2002) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 11:29:10 -0000 Subject: More thoughts on the Book 5 Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59220 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > > > > ..edited... > > > > So who do I think it will be? One of the Creevey brothers.> bboy_mn I could see this happening. Colin dies (somehow trying to save Harry), and Harry takes it upon himself, out of a sense of guilt and remorse, to become a sort of surrogate big brother to Dennis. He's sort of experienced the "little brother" thing with the Weasleys. But really hasn't had the responsibility of being a "big brother" to anyone (Ginny doesn't count. Besides, I think she's meant for Harry in another way ;)) Another lesson in responsibility and leadership for our hero. Toad (who is having to recall her Lamaze breathing in anticipation of the Blessed Event.) From vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be Tue Jun 3 13:53:49 2003 From: vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be (vicky_gwosdz) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 13:53:49 -0000 Subject: Even More Likely Meaning of OOP (Not written by Derannimer) In-Reply-To: <000001c3299d$8741da30$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59221 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Merlin wrote: > > That signal Dumbledore sent up the ghostly bird could that be the call for help of the Order of the Phoenix? Because Hagrid dropped whatever he had been doing and came running with his crossbow. > > Me: Maybe someone already suggested this (I've looked in the messages but didn't find anything though), but seen that Voldemort has his method to call the DE's (the sign on the arm) isn't it reasonable to assume that the forces of good have some sort of the same. In this case, as Merlin suggested, a call for the Order of the Phoenix? Again, if this has been raised before, xcuse me. My 2 cts, Vicky From acukier at uol.com.br Tue Jun 3 15:12:36 2003 From: acukier at uol.com.br (alexcukier) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 15:12:36 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's 25 missing years Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59222 Folks, Does anyone have any theories (not full funfiction, please!) about Voldemort 25 missing years (1945-1970)? Of course we do know that "(Tom Riddle) disappeared after leaving the school...travel far and wide... sank so deeply into the Dark Arts, consorted with the very worst of our kind, underwent so many dangerous, magical transformations..." - Albus Dumbledore, Chamber of Secrets, last chapter. But: -Did Tom had any contact with the Muggle world? Did he live a muggle life and bought Riddle's House with a different name? Was he involved in any profit (illegal) activity in order to be rich and change muggle's money into wizard's money? -What about Grindelwald followers? Tom joined them after G's defeat? -Was Dumbledore following his steps with his informants? -Why in the hell someone would like to be missing 25 years!!! It's too long, even for wizards standards! It's a generation! I have a feeling that beyond the evil x good, prejudice x friendship, one of the most important motivations for Dumbledore is that HE FEELS GUILTY about actual scenario in the Wizard World. Maybe because: a) He didn't stop Tom Riddle at CoS events. b) He didn't accept The Ministery after defeating Grindelwald and choose educate wizards focusing large term peace (and he fails until 1981) c) He doesn't want to use Voldemort terms to defeat him (maybe Dark Magic) d) There was some cumplicity/non-agression pact between Dumbledore and Tom Riddle in the past (mainly 1945-1970) e) All of them (and more them we even can imagine) In fact, we have from McGonaggal (PS/SS): "...You (Dumbledore) are the only one that...Voldemort, was FRIGHTENED of." - Capitals mine - Then, why didn't Dumbledore really confront Voldemort face-to-face. This kind of duel is spred all over literature, but maybe JKR is reserving that to book 7. Before that, only if Dumbledore dies (probably during the duel). Well, if any of you ould like to discuss any of this ideas, I'd love to read your impressions. Alex Cukier, the brazilian huge fan (still looking for a better English teacher) ----------------------------------- It's the old guy's fault - it will be a very good teenage love song From esmeriley at hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 15:39:53 2003 From: esmeriley at hotmail.com (esmeriley1) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 15:39:53 -0000 Subject: RE - Death of Book 5 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59223 Hello All! First time posting here so please, please forgive me if I repeat things or get the format wrong or something. Okay - the death in book 5 is something I have been trying to work out since reading GoF oh so many eons ago, I came to the following conclusions: Dumbledore - he will die, but not yet. I think book 6. Hagrid - Hagrid's death would certainly be traumatic to read and for JKR to write, but it is Hagrid who rescued HP from Godric's Hollow, Hagrid who finally tells HP he is a wizard (You're a wizard Harry...I'm a....What?!?). He is just too useful to the plot, revealing information he shouldn't etc so he'll be around for a while longer. Sirius - I don't think he'll die, he may be injured in the coming battle but there wouldn't be a happy ending if HP had to defeat Voldemort and return to the Dursley's, me thinks. Remus - Maybe, he's a central character but distant enough to be killed without ruining the trio etc. But as someone has said (sorry, can't find who) JKR wouldn't kill off her favourite character. Dobby - Too much comedy value. McGonagal - I don't think anyone has suggested this so far (my apologies if someone has) but then she'd replace Dumbledore as head of the school. I think McGonagal may be far more involved in the fight against Voldemort than has previously been shown. Hedwig - As you probably know 'Hedwig' means 'secret weapon' (I can't remember where I read that, sorry) and I always thought she would die saving Harry. Snape - Throughout the books Snape has always been a suspicious character, right from believing he is evil in PS to Fake Moody showing Real Moody's wariness of him (Some spots don't come off). He creates a balance I think, maybe he'll die in book 7 to save Harry... A few other suggestions - Viktor Krum, Rosmerta, Flitwick, Fudge? Viktor Krum dying would be interesting - we know he has a thing for Hermione (Mermaid Task) but we also know Ron and Hermione may be getting together, nice bit of rivalry coming on. Perhaps Krum will die to save Hermione? Anyway, those are my random thoughts at the present time and I thank you for reading them. Love to you all Esm? ~x~ From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Tue Jun 3 16:39:20 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 12:39:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Saving every Sickle (Was: Percy and the Weasleys' finances) Message-ID: <8f.2d935f1d.2c0e2938@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59224 In a message dated 6/2/03 10:15:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dorigen at hotmail.com writes: > Yes, but they also need to consider the feelings of teenagers, for whom > looking bad or different is a painful and traumatic experience I'll offer my expertise in teenagerdom. I *am* a teenager. I know the feelings (from a different country/gender, but I think they're universal). Looking bad or different isn't traumatic. It's a good thing. "You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you're all the same." It's better to learn these lessons while you're young. All that being different teaches you is that you can do whatever you want and be whoever you want. Ron is a better person because he knows who his friends are. He has a tight-knit, loving family. Are dress robes really more important? I don't think Molly rubbed it (the whole dress robes thing) in to Ron. Harry's more a part of the Weasley family than a guest IMHO. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ --Saving Every Sickle sounds like a wizard punk band... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Jun 3 16:46:29 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 16:46:29 -0000 Subject: Intrinsically Good magic, and motives over ends (Fwd from OTC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59225 Amy Z wrote: > This OTChatter thread got into some very interesting on-topic > philosophical musing, so I'm forwarding it here. The question was > whether magic in JKR's universe is morally neutral (i.e., can be good > or evil, depending on how it's applied) or there are some spells that > are intrinsically good or intrinsically evil. My broad opinion (before getting down to specifics) is: magic, in itself, is an instrument. Thus, it is neither good nor bad, just dangerous and helpful. I have provided in the past ways to turn even the most innocent spell into a killing curse, by applying it in certain circunstance. Harry has done the same, in fact, in canon, with his "rictusempra" spell - a tickling charm used in combat as a very good attack. But just because the spells can be used this way, it doesn't mean that they're intrinsically evil (and neither can be said about magic). Now, in OT someone suggested the unforgivables as intrinsically evil spells. What is more, David has reminded me that there is a whole section of magic called Dark Arts which could be asumed to be evil. So, what's up with this? Well, I think it is well known (or was well known, when I actually posted every day instead of once a month) that I have a theory about unforgivables that tates that the name is nothing more than a legal classification, that might have included many other spells (or none at all) in ages past. Especifically, an unforgivable spell is one that'll get you thrown into Azkaban if used against another human being. If the MoM decides, this could include accio, wingardium leviosa and mobili corpus, to give a few examples. At this point, it has Imperio, Crucio and AK. But my point is that being unforgivables, in itself, doesn't mean that the spell is evil - just extremelly dangerous. Like, say, a rocket launcher. Rocket launchers aren't *evil*, just dangerous. Evil is the one that uses it against other people. Now, some people have pointed out that AK, Crucio and Imperius are inherently evil themselves, that they cannot be used for good. There, I have to put my foot down. There are times when killing is justified, even in today's world. And I'm not talking about self-defence (or South Africa's brutal but very effective "shoot poachers on sight" policy). You can be attacked by an animal - or have to "put one to sleep". For all we've seen, AK is immediate and unpainful. Unlike USA's executions (some of which have been very badly mangled), AK is a very "humane" way of killing a creature. Dangerous? Of course. Evil? It is still a method. Evil is a consequence of morality, and thus AK is "evil" if whomever uses it is evil, or is performing an evil act (i.e. against the stablished morality). What about the other two? Imperius had one consequence that I was very impressed with - allowing the Imperioed creature to act beyond his or her natural abilities. The spider dances on the table, Neville performs acrobatical acts. In correct hads, it could help people that need help - such as, during a fire, getting people to jump onto the safety net. Or to run at top speed towards exists, but in perfect order so evacuation proceeds perfectly. Yes, not everyday use, but neither is AK your everyday spell. I'm sure I could come up with other examples, too. Crucio is the most complicated, since it is pain for the sake of pain. However, it could have it uses. When I was in South Africa, the guards of the parks would all carry rifles, to shoot at poachers and to protect the legal visitors from animals, if one decided to attack. I always felt sorry for the animals - after all, they're only trying to get food. A handy crucio would stop such attack without (physically) harming the animal, and it might even teach him not to attack humans (which isn't that bad idea, since you shouldn't bite the hand that feeds you). Pain is an accepted teaching method on animals, and has been for a long time. Again, an unlikely use, but it only takes one to make something NOT intrinsically evil (or intrinsically good, for that matter). In conclussion, just like "good" (read: innocent-looking) spells can be used for evil, so can "evil" (read: dangerous) spells used for good. Because when push comes to shove, they're all instruments, and instruments aren't subject to morality. Just their use. I'd add an example of good spells used for evil purposes, but David and Amy Z have covered it quite well, so I'll just mention it: if sacrifices are intrinsically good, what's with Peter's sacrifice of a hand for Voldemort's return? Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From innermurk at catlover.com Tue Jun 3 17:12:19 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 17:12:19 -0000 Subject: Intrinsically Good magic, and motives over ends (Fwd from OTC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59226 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" wrote: Let's say Lily's > sacrifice was pure love, unmarred by any other motives. Just the > same, fourteen years later, Cedric Diggory died because her son > lived. No Harry, no Harry in the TWT, no reason for Cedric to stray > across the path of Voldemort. Yeah, Voldemort would probably have > been in power for those fourteen years and heaven knows what would > have happened to the Diggorys; maybe Cedric would've died anyway, > when the DEs blew up his house when he was 5, say. But what we *do* > know is that in *this* timeline, Cedric died because he had the bad > luck to be in the same place as Harry Potter. > > So we may be able to say that on balance Lily's sacrifice > accomplished more good than evil (though only the gods can know), but > we can't say it accomplished only good. > I innermurk would like to reply: You can't say that Cedric died *because* of Harry, or *because* he was in the same place as Harry Potter. If he had gotten to the cup first and was whisked away to the graveyard, he would most likely have been killed anyway. And Harry wouldn't have been there. He would have died, not being in the same place as Harry. Harry does blame himself for this, as he shares your viewpoint on the matter. That is, that Cedric died because of him. BUT, DD very clearly points out that Cedric died because he was unlucky enough to be in the same place as *Voldemort* He died because *Voldemort* wanted him to. Harry had little to nothing to do with it. Voldemort was after Harry, yes, but as you point out, if Harry had died and he wasn't even in the equation, Cedric would most likely have perished already. In light of how intricately every choice we make interacts with everyone else, I don't think you can say that one choice was good or bad because down the line it affected so and so this way, or so and so that way. It has to be more of an immediate thing IMO. It has to be a *direct* result of *that particular choice* and *that choice only* or else there is no way to judge it fairly. Harry had the distinct choice to take the cup himself, or let Cedric have it. Cedric had those choices too. I would say that these choices were what affected the death of Cedric, much more than Lily's choice to save her son. Crouch!Moody had the choice to find and follow V, and had the choice to put Harry's name in the goblet. These choices affected Cedric's death more than Lily's choice. Everyone who helped Harry to get a headstart into the maze by giving him clues and help on the previous tasks made that choice to do so, and affected the outcome more than Lily did. There are multitudes of other choices that were made along the way affecting Harry, Cedric, Voldemort, Dumbledore, the Ministry, the Tournament, and in fact *everyone* that weigh in more heavily than Lily's choice to save her son. So, I don't believe you can judge that her choice was good or bad on the fact of Cedric's death. And it *was not* Harry's fault that Cedric died. JMO, Innermurk From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Jun 3 17:40:02 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 17:40:02 -0000 Subject: About Dean Thomas and the first sorting Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59227 I have read quite a few post, that JKR made a mistake in the first book and forgot to sort Dean Thomas. I don't agree with this and I want to quote the part from the sorting to explain my opinion: In "Harry Potter and the philosopher's stone", page 134, Bloomsbury edition is written (it's directly after Harry's sorting): "He could see the High table properly now. At the end nearest him sat Hagrid, who caught his eye and gave him the thumbs.up. Harry grinned back. And there, in the centre of the High table in a large gold chair, sat Albus Dumbledore. Harry recognised him at once from the card he'd got out of the chocolat frog on the train. Dumbledore's silver hair was the only thing in the whole Hall that shone as brightly as the ghosts. Harry spotted Professor Quirrell too, the nervous young man from the Leaky Cauldron. He was looking very peculiar in a large purple turban." After this paragraph Lisa Turbin was sorted, not directly after Harry's sorting. Thomas is before Turpin in the alphabet, that means Dean could have been sorted while Harry was watching the people on the High table. It's just not mentioned, because JKR writes from Harry's point of view and Harry's thoughts wandered off from the sorting to Dumbledore and the others. Hickengruendler From ivanova at idcnet.com Tue Jun 3 17:44:38 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 12:44:38 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE - Death of Book 5 References: Message-ID: <000601c329f7$ceb2ef80$17ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 59228 >Snape - Throughout the books Snape has always been a suspicious >character, right from believing he is evil in PS to Fake Moody >showing Real Moody's wariness of him (Some spots don't come off). He >creates a balance I think, maybe he'll die in book 7 to save Harry... I just have to comment on the possibility of Snape dying in book 5. I read in an interview/chat transcript with JKR that he will be in book 7. I believe it's in the same question where someone asks her if Snape will ever have a love interest. She said she thought that question was very interesting, and that the person would have to read book 7 to find out. I don't remember exactly where I found this or what the exact quote was, but from this I would say that he will survive the next two books. Now, when we are sitting here discussing what might happen in book 7, then I can see bringing up Snape as a possible death candidate. Kelly Grosskreutz, who has her money on Ginny dying http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Jun 3 17:43:37 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 17:43:37 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's 25 missing years & Dumbledore's motives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59229 Alex Cukier wrote: > Does anyone have any theories (not full funfiction, please!) about > Voldemort 25 missing years (1945-1970)? > > Of course we do know that "(Tom Riddle) disappeared after leaving the > school...travel far and wide... sank so deeply into the Dark Arts, > consorted with the very worst of our kind, underwent so many > dangerous, magical transformations..." - Albus Dumbledore, Chamber of > Secrets, last chapter. There is more canon than that. Particularly, we know what those 25 years involved: finding methods to achive immortality. He consorted with the powers of darkness, looking for ways to live forever, and he must have found several methods that promised such thing - all experimental, or at least hints that gave him ideas. From the GG (Graveyard Gathering): "I, who have gone further than anybody along the path that leads to immortality. You know my goal - to conquer death. Andd now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked... for I had not been killed, thought the curse should have done it." Voldemort, GoF, Br. Ed. It seems that Voldemort made many experiments, and he himself didn't know how effective they would prove to be. In fact, he still doesn't know (or doesn't tell) which of his experiments was the one that protected him from the (rebounded) AK. > But: > > -Did Tom had any contact with the Muggle world? Did he live a muggle > life and bought Riddle's House with a different name? Was he involved > in any profit (illegal) activity in order to be rich and change > muggle's money into wizard's money? Depending on how you define "contact", Tom Riddle did indeed have one: after school, he made a quick visit to his parent's family and killed them (the murder of the Riddles). It is doubtful that he could've kept the house, or that he would've gone into muggle commerce to get money. What for? He's a wizard, and what he wants is immortality, so he needs to travel to find magical ways of achieving this. Playing with the stock market won't accomplish this. And if he did have any way to generate profit, why do it in the muggle world at all? If he's good at finances, he can make money in the WW and there is no need to give part of his profits to the goblins so they will turn it into wizard money. > -What about Grindelwald followers? Tom joined them after G's defeat? It has been suggested that Grindelwald could in some way be connected to Tom - maybe they met during one summer, or even Tom was one of his followers. But there is no canon one way or the other. About as much as I am willing to go at this point is that Grindelwald gave Tom ideas of dominion. > -Was Dumbledore following his steps with his informants? We know from canon that Dumbledore kept an eye on Tom after the events surrounding the CoS incident of Tom's times, so it is not impossible that Dumbledore attempted to continue to keep an eye on him. However, keeping an eye on a boy that travels the world looking for dark wizards to learn Dark Arts is risky, and somewhat unjustified - while Tom, at the time, was obviously someone to keep an eye on, the same could be said about many other students, and it seems Dumbledore did not trust anyone with the information of Riddle's untrustworthyness (maybe because he was such a well-liked student). What I'm getting at is that at the time he wasn't a pressing issue, and unless Dumbledore had spare spies, he wouldn't have been able to deploy his net just to keep an eye on a 17 year old boy. > -Why in the hell someone would like to be missing 25 years!!! It's > too long, even for wizards standards! It's a generation! No, it is not that long. Particularly if the goal of those 25 years is to live for the next 25 eons and more. How long did it take Flannel to come up with the Philosopher's Stone? One wizard life, at the most, but even that long is irrelevant when compared to the fruits collected. Besides, he wasn't missing - he knew exactly where he was. The ones who didn't were the other wizards, but that would hardly matter to someone as self-involved as Voldemort. > I have a feeling that beyond the evil x good, prejudice x friendship, > one of the most important motivations for Dumbledore is that HE FEELS > GUILTY about actual scenario in the Wizard World. Maybe because: Ummm... while it seems a nice theory, do you have any canon to back it up? I myself have never seen Dumbledore as a guilty consciense, just as someone that is fighting yet another war against yet another evil wizard, and is getting tired of it all. But as I say, it's a good theory, let's see what we can milk from it. > a) He didn't stop Tom Riddle at CoS events. I asume you mean the CoS incident 50 years back, and not the ones in the book CoS. True, he didn't stop Riddle then especifically, but Diary!Tom implies that he didn't open the chamber again because Dumbledore was watching him closely, so Dumbledore was more or less responsible for the lack of further incidents. > b) He didn't accept The Ministery after defeating Grindelwald and > choose educate wizards focusing large term peace (and he fails until > 1981) We are not told that he was offered the Ministry after the Grindewald events. According to Hagrid, that only happened after Voldemort's fall, when Crouch Sr. lost his popularity due to his son's actions. But even if he did, I think that Dumbledore has never wanted the position of MoM, since it would put him in the public eye, and in a very exposed position, while he can be defended in Hogwarts, where he can lead generation after generation of school chidren down the correct path (as much as possibe). > c) He doesn't want to use Voldemort terms to defeat him (maybe Dark > Magic) This is indeed true, and canonically so, but I doubt this is origin of guilt - I have theorized that it is expressed as fear, but not as guilt. He knows he's powerful enough to destroy Voldemort, but only if he goes down to his level, and since he won't do it, a fight between him and Voldemort might end in his death (and since he's the one, so far, keeping Voldemort in check, his death would mean the death of countless people. That's enough to make anyone afraid). > d) There was some cumplicity/non-agression pact between Dumbledore > and Tom Riddle in the past (mainly 1945-1970) No canon about this whatsoever, I'm afraid, and seems OOC for Dumbledore (and probably for Riddle as well). Dumbledore isn't the sort to agree to non-agression pacts with someone who drove a basilisk against a schools population. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From ivanova at idcnet.com Tue Jun 3 18:00:42 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 13:00:42 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Death of Book 5 References: Message-ID: <001101c329fa$0d794500$17ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 59230 Galadriel wrote: The only reason I can think of > that Dobby might die is that his importance in canon seems to be > lessening. I beg to differ here. As we know, both sides are working on recruiting people to work for them in the upcoming war. Dobby used to work for the Malfoys. I feel he may end up being a very important person for DD's side in the upcoming war because of that information. I have seen people fear for the Weasley's because Peter lived in their house for over a decade as their pet rat. That information can now be used by Voldemort's side. We now have a balance to that in Dobby supplying information to DD's side on the Malfoys. It's interesting that JKR seems to balance things out. Dobby is a counter to Peter in the way I have stated above. Snape defects to DD's side and spys on V's group; Peter defects to V's side and spies on DD's group. My concern is that we do not seem to have a counter to Rita Skeeter, who I feel will be one to fear in upcoming books. Maybe Colin's photography could be a counter to her "journalism?" Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 17:59:48 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 17:59:48 -0000 Subject: Intrinsically Good magic, and motives over ends (Fwd from OTC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59231 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Grey Wolf" wrote: > Amy Z wrote: > > This OTChatter thread .... The question was whether magic in > > JKR's universe is morally neutral or there are some spells that > > are intrinsically good or intrinsically evil. > > My broad opinion (before getting down to specifics) is: magic, in > itself, is an instrument. Thus, it is neither good nor bad, just > dangerous and helpful. ...edited.... > > Now, in OT someone suggested the unforgivables as intrinsically evil > spells. ...edited excellent post on unforgivables... > > Grey Wolf bboy_mn: Grey Wolf made some excellent points that demonstrated how Unforgivable Curse would not be evil in all cases. I will amend what he said by pointing out that Unforgivable Curses are only unforgivable when used on a fellow human being. (fake)Moody speaks (GoF Hb Am Ed pg 217), "...The use of anyone of them (unfrogivable curses) ON A FELLOW HUMAN BEING is enough to earn a life sentence in Azkaban. ...." So using the death curse to kill an animal before you turn it into juicy tender hams, chops, roasts, and steaks would not be unforgivable. It would in fact be a very humane way of accomplishing the task. Just wanted to add that. bboy_mn From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 3 18:00:50 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (elady25) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 18:00:50 -0000 Subject: Harry's Clothes(was: Did Harry Exchange Galleons for Pounds?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59232 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Linda" wrote: > I agree that the robes were the actual uniforms but as drafty as the castle is described as being, I would think they would have > something on under them- especially during the winter months- or > everyone would have smoke coming out of their ears all the time due > to pepper-up potion. We never see Harry tripping over baggy pants > when he's running so IMHO he is wearing clothes that fit. > Additionally, in many instances, Harry is wearing muggle clothing > when he is with the Weasleys(example: The Quidditch world cup) and > there is no mentin of embarressment on his part or even any comment > from Molly. Even though Molly tries too refrain from saying anything > bad about the Dursleys in front of Harry I would think she would try > to remedy Harry having ill-fitting, ratty clothes. We simply don't > see anything of that nature. Imamommy: Perhaps Harry magicked some of Dudley's clothes to fit properly (when he learned the right spells of course), maybe Hermione even did it for him,like she fixed his glasses. Of course, we know he has a couple of homemade Weasley sweaters now:) imamommy (Don't get me started on the clothes in the movies) From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Jun 3 18:31:44 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 11:31:44 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Saving every Sickle (Was: Percy and the Weasleys' finances) In-Reply-To: <8f.2d935f1d.2c0e2938@aol.com> References: <8f.2d935f1d.2c0e2938@aol.com> Message-ID: <393801947.20030603113144@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 59233 Hi, Tuesday, June 03, 2003, 9:39:20 AM, SnapesSlytherin wrote: > I don't think Molly rubbed it (the whole dress robes thing) in to > Ron. We'll she certainly wasn't sensitive about it... from GoF: "Don't be so silly," said Mrs. Weasley. "You've got to have dress robes, they're on your list! I got some for Harry too. . . show him, Harry... ." In some trepidation, Harry opened the last parcel on his camp bed. It wasn't as bad as he had expected, however; his dress robes didn't have any lace on them at all - in fact, they were more or less the same as his school ones, except that they were bottle green instead of black. "I thought they'd bring out the color of your eyes, dear," said Mrs. Weasley fondly. "Well, they're okay!" said Ron angrily, looking at Harry's robes. "Why couldn't I have some like that?" *********** For some reason I have a hard time believing there are no "newer style" used dress robes available at all, maybe just not in maroon. I hope, some day we'll find out the significance of Ron having to wear that particular color... -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Jun 3 18:31:59 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 18:31:59 -0000 Subject: Transfiguration Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59234 > Mark wrote: > > > < moment), but it didn't have the "mind of a rock". It was very "dog > like".>> > > And Brief Chronicles questioned: > > > You've got a good point. When Cedric turns the rock into a dog, if > >we're all right that the essence of the original thing is what > governs >its actions, then the dog ought to just sit there... like a > rock. :) >Why doesn't it? > > > Corinth: > > I'll modify my original thoery based on this. When transfiguring > from low to high complexity, the original intelligence of the object > is maintained. However, some qualities can be added based on the > "definition" of the new form. Let me see if I can explain what I > mean by this. I've arrived somewhat late to this discussion, but I'm going to throw in my own theory of transfiguration, if only to muddle the waters. But first, I have to make a crucial distinction. It is not the same to transfigure than to become an animagi. Animagi's minds are still very much human-like (although, according to Sirius, the emotions are animal-like). This is suported by QttA, where it is said that the few wizards that can enjoy flying without a broom are those few lucky whose animagi form happens to be able to fly ("Those few Animagi who transform into winged creatures may enjoy flight, but they are a rarity", QttA). On the other hand, other transfigurations give you the mental capacity (which is not the same as ability) of the animal: "The witch or wizard who finds him- or herself transfigured into a bat may take to the air, but, *having a bat's brain*, they are sure to forget where they wanted to go the moment they take flight." (emphasis mine), QttA. For the purposes of this post, from now on I'll ignore animagi transfiguration, which seems pretty straightforward: it retains human intelligence. Now, this question came up once before, as a more metaphysical question: does a person transfigured into a table loose his/her soul (note: soul as in "whatever the ghosts are made of")? Does a table transfigured into an animal gain a soul? I tried to look it up in yahoomort's archives, but as always it was futile. So I'll just repeat myself, as I am used to doing. Now, certainly soul and intelligence are not the same thing, but the same principles apply. A rock has no soul or intelligence, and yet Cedric's pet rock moved around and barked. How is this possible? As Corinth points out, it is part of the spell. Cedric has an image in his head of what a dog is suposed to act like, and his spell changes the rock into that image. It is still a rock, though (and luckyly so, because, if not, poor dog, created just to be fed as bait to a dragon). Things get more muddy when we start and finish with an animal/human, in the intelligence department. The problem is that while we know that humans become animal-like, we've never seen a pig transformed into a human, so canon is scarce. Now, according to my theory of spell intent, a rat turned into a human would *seem* to act and think as a human, because that is what the spell is suposed to do, if properly formulated. The spellcaster has an image in his head of what a human is suposed to act like, and that's what you get. The rock acts as a dog, the ferret acts like a human. However, this raises an interesting question: how much *like* a human will it act? It is conceivable that when you canst the spell, you're thinking of someone in particular - maybe yourself, and thus the spell would use you as a pattern to create and fill in the transfigured creature's brain. I certainly cannot imagine Hermione (or anyone else) creating something more intelligent than themselves - the magic has to copy it from somewhere. But I think that it would indeed fill the brain with at least some knowledge. For example, when transfiguring you might expect a human to be able to talk, read and do basic maths (in this particular day and age. In the Middle ages, drop maths and read, add swordplay), and thus the spell would use your knowledge of those areas to give those expected abilities in the creature. But, if you expect your human to know advanced nuclear phisics, but you've got no idea of what that is in reality, the spell will probably not give you real knowledge - more likely, only your perception of how someone who knew would act. I hope I've made sense here. Now, pressing on to the oposite effect, humans into animals. This is even muddier. From the quote in QttA, it seems that you get an animal mind with the spell, but then, is it that bad that Malfoy gets turned into a ferret? According to my theory, not when in ferret form (although the bouncing was a nice touch, and what prompted the ferret to try and run away from Moody). But I have the feeling that when you are transformed back, you get back all your missing intelligence, *and you can remember what it was like not to have it*. Malfoy is certainly a little out of sorts when he's transformed back. But maybe it is just the bouncing. Still, I like to think that he's suddenly realised how limited his brain had become when in ferret form, and that' what acausing his eyes to pop out of their sockets. So, in conclussion, I agree mostly with Corinth's theory of comunicating containers (although I've added that the "extra" water that didn't fit in the smaller container is given back when back to the big one, which (s)he forgot), and I have expanded somewhat the theory of intelligence gaining. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Jun 3 18:43:48 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 18:43:48 -0000 Subject: Harry's Clothes(was: Did Harry Exchange Galleons for Pounds?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59235 > Imamommy: > Perhaps Harry magicked some of Dudley's clothes to fit properly (when > he learned the right spells of course), Or maybe the robes he brought included a set of wizard under-robes for winter time. And a set of pijamas - you know, everything a child needs for Hogwarts for a year. And, like many other unimportant details (like Harry's cleaning habits), it simply went unmentioned in the books. Also, we must not forget that Harry is used to using Dudley's clothes, and that he is particularly good at running away and dodging Dudley and his friends, so he might have an ability to run with baggy clothes that we don't know about, because he's so used to it. > maybe Hermione even did it > for him,like she fixed his glasses. Here, have this nice bermellon with green stripes movie-contamination flag. I'm afraid that Hermione has never fixed Harry's glasses in the books. Arthur did that, after Harry's first Floo trip. Hope that helps Grey Wolf, who keeps changing the colours of movie contamination flag because he can't for his life remember what the colours were. From jmmears at comcast.net Tue Jun 3 18:47:02 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 18:47:02 -0000 Subject: Intrinsically Good magic, and motives over ends (Fwd from OTC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59236 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" wrote: > Let's say Lily's > > sacrifice was pure love, unmarred by any other motives. Just the > > same, fourteen years later, Cedric Diggory died because her son > > lived. No Harry, no Harry in the TWT, no reason for Cedric to > stray across the path of Voldemort. But what we *do* > > know is that in *this* timeline, Cedric died because he had the bad > > luck to be in the same place as Harry Potter. > > > > So we may be able to say that on balance Lily's sacrifice > > accomplished more good than evil (though only the gods can know), > but > > we can't say it accomplished only good. > > > > Innermurk replied: > You can't say that Cedric died *because* of Harry, or *because* he > was in the same place as Harry Potter. If he had gotten to the cup > first and was whisked away to the graveyard, he would most likely > have been killed anyway. And Harry wouldn't have been there. He would > have died, not being in the same place as Harry. I'm not Amy, but I think that the point she was making was that if there were *no* Harry Potter at Hogwarts to compete in the TWT, there would have been no reason for the cup to portkey Cedric to the graveyard (or for Voldy to *be* in the graveyard for that matter, since he'd still have his original body). Innermurk continued: > Harry does blame himself for this, as he shares your viewpoint on the > matter. That is, that Cedric died because of him. BUT, DD very > clearly points out that Cedric died because he was unlucky enough to be in the same place as *Voldemort* > > He died because *Voldemort* wanted him to. > > Harry had little to nothing to do with it. Voldemort was after Harry, > yes, but as you point out, if Harry had died and he wasn't even in > the equation, Cedric would most likely have perished already. I don't think it was *likely* that Cedric would have perished already. I think that Amy was saying that he could *possibly* died anyway, but there's nothing in canon to show that the Diggorys were in any way special targets of Voldemort. It's most likely that he'd be alive in a very different sort of WW with Voldy in charge. Innermurk again: > In light of how intricately every choice we make interacts with > everyone else, I don't think you can say that one choice was good or > bad because down the line it affected so and so this way, or so and > so that way. It has to be more of an immediate thing IMO. > It has to be a *direct* result of *that particular choice* and *that > choice only* or else there is no way to judge it fairly. > > Harry had the distinct choice to take the cup himself, or let Cedric > have it. Cedric had those choices too. I would say that these choices > were what affected the death of Cedric, much more than Lily's choice > to save her son. Again, I don't want to speak for Amy, but I think that her point was that none of the later choices would have presented themselves if Lily hadn't saved Harry. I don't think she was saying that Lily's choice was bad so much as that not all of the results of her choice were good. Innermurk concludes: > So, I don't believe you can judge that her choice was good or bad on the fact of Cedric's death. > And it *was not* Harry's fault that Cedric died. No, it's certainly not Harry's fault that Cedric died. However, it *was* an unintended consequence of Lily's sacrifice, which I think was Amy's whole point, ie you can never predict that all the consequences of a "good" act will all be good. Jo Serenadust, who apologises in advance to Amy if she's misinterpreted anything from her post. > From melclaros at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 19:01:14 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 19:01:14 -0000 Subject: OT, apology first--request to follow Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59237 Please forgive the pollution. It's likely this should be posted on the movie site--feel free to move it if you wish, I no longer subscribe there. Ok...I am looking for the official promo pictures of the cast of TMTSNBN2, you've all seen them, admit it, white backgrounds, very posed...If anyone knows where they can be found on the net, please let me know, email me to keep OT traffic offlist. Apologies again for list pollution! Mel (awaiting much deserved howler) From s_karmol at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 17:49:02 2003 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (s_karmol) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 17:49:02 -0000 Subject: The Death of Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59238 OK...I have read everyone's thoughts on this matter and I have to tell you I have really thought about this (an obsession for about a year with me and my friends)and here's what I think. 1st off...J.K. is a sneeky little thing. She will give us a clue, but the clue's meaning might not be the obvious. If the death was hard for her to write, that might not mean it's because she liked the character, it might be difficult because of who will be affected by it, i.e. Harry, Hermione, Ron. I don't think it's going to be Hagrid. He's needed for the giants. I don't think the giants will kill him...cause then that will leave Dumbledore and gang with no allies...Hagrid might die...but it won't be in Book 5. It's not going to be Dumbledore either...I don't think he will die until end of book 6 or book 7. Harry is the one who must defeat Volde. and he will realize that when Dumbledore dies. Hermione and Ron won't be victims either, only die to the fact that they are too needed..they're a team and if one of them dies, it will prob. be at the hands of Vold. which will only entensify Harry's need to destroy Vold. So, here's my prediction: Percy and Karkaroff. Karkaroff we will hear about...something that happened over the summer. This will be the death that truely shows that Vold. is back and anyone who runs will be destroyed...including his DE. Percy's going to be the difficult death. It will be difficult because of how it affects the Weasleys...Harry's "adopted" family. If you think about it Percy's obsession with MoM and work was clearly stated in book 4. At the end of book 4 you see Fudge refusing to believe that Vold is back...which means that the MoM will not be a part of Dumbledore's gang. That will put Percy is quite a prediciment...should he side with work or with his family. I think it's that indecision that will kill Percy. And think about how Ron and the Weasly's will be effected by that..and in turn how Harry will be effected by that. I really think that Book 5 and the deaths within will be the leadup to the "war" that is brewing for 6 and 7. Thanks for listening. Steph From yellows at aol.com Tue Jun 3 19:20:41 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 15:20:41 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More thoughts on the Book 5 Death Message-ID: <1320E6D8.30C63719.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59239 In a message dated 6/3/2003 1:17:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, bboy writes: <> I thought the purpose of the Creevy brothers in the story was to annoy. :) Honestly, I can't see them dying. Especially after what happened to Colin in CoS. We were concerned, but it wasn't the worst thing in the world. Maybe I'm heartless, but I don't like Colin very much. I would cry buckets if Neville died, but, as you said, it's not his time to shine yet. He's going to grow into himself later on and it will be incredible. I can't wait to see Neville steal the show. :) But, oh, if it's a Weasley to die in Book 5, I'm not sure I can take it. I don't want to see Molly and Arthur and Ron go through that. I've heard some thoughts about it being Dobby. That's possible. But I'm not sure I'd care much if it were he, either. I love Dobby -- much more than I do Colin, of course -- but he's just not *that* important to me. Maybe I feel this way about Dobby and Colin because they're not always on Harry's mind. I like Dobby more than Colin, and so does Harry. :) Hmmm. I'm such a follower. Brief Chronicles From danielmorgan191 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 19:08:57 2003 From: danielmorgan191 at hotmail.com (danielmorgan322) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 19:08:57 -0000 Subject: RE - Death of Book 5 In-Reply-To: <000601c329f7$ceb2ef80$17ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59240 Kelly Grosskreutz wrote: She said she thought that question was very > interesting, and that the person would have to read book 7 to find out. I > don't remember exactly where I found this or what the exact quote was, but > from this I would say that he will survive the next two books. Now, when we > are sitting here discussing what might happen in book 7, then I can see > bringing up Snape as a possible death candidate. Me: Alothough you may be right in saying that Snape doesnt die in book five, you could still be wrong. Maybe he does die in book five, but we only find out about his previous love interests in book seven. Or perhaps we could meet the woman he loved? Maybe she was a death eater...Maybe she was the woman from the courtroom scene that said the dark lord would return. Just a wild theory, but who knows? Morgan From innermurk at catlover.com Tue Jun 3 19:40:06 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 19:40:06 -0000 Subject: Intrinsically Good magic, and motives over ends (Fwd from OTC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59241 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "serenadust" wrote: > Innermurk replied: > > You can't say that Cedric died *because* of Harry, or *because* he > > was in the same place as Harry Potter. If he had gotten to the cup > > first and was whisked away to the graveyard, he would most likely > > have been killed anyway. And Harry wouldn't have been there. He > would > > have died, not being in the same place as Harry. > > serenadust replied: > I'm not Amy, but I think that the point she was making was that if > there were *no* Harry Potter at Hogwarts to compete in the TWT, > there would have been no reason for the cup to portkey Cedric to the > graveyard (or for Voldy to *be* in the graveyard for that matter, > since he'd still have his original body). > > > Innermurk continued: > > > Harry does blame himself for this, as he shares your viewpoint on > the > > matter. That is, that Cedric died because of him. BUT, DD very > > clearly points out that Cedric died because he was unlucky enough > to be in the same place as *Voldemort* > > > > He died because *Voldemort* wanted him to. > > > > Harry had little to nothing to do with it. Voldemort was after > Harry, > > yes, but as you point out, if Harry had died and he wasn't even in > > the equation, Cedric would most likely have perished already. > > > I don't think it was *likely* that Cedric would have perished > already. I think that Amy was saying that he could *possibly* died > anyway, but there's nothing in canon to show that the Diggorys were > in any way special targets of Voldemort. It's most likely that he'd > be alive in a very different sort of WW with Voldy in charge. Innermurk replies again: You have missed my point entirely. But I'll refute your points to try and make it clear. The Diggorys might not be a target of Voldemort's now, but if he were in power (and Amy made this point which is why I didn't elaborate on it) they as good wizards would probably have become targets later on, and Cedric might've been killed already, or later since he's a decent person and not likely to accept Voldemort's terms. The point is, alive or dead, Harry has *nothing* to do with Cedric being a target. > Innermurk again: > > In light of how intricately every choice we make interacts with > > everyone else, I don't think you can say that one choice was good > or > > bad because down the line it affected so and so this way, or so > and > > so that way. It has to be more of an immediate thing IMO. > > It has to be a *direct* result of *that particular choice* and > *that > > choice only* or else there is no way to judge it fairly. > > > > Harry had the distinct choice to take the cup himself, or let > Cedric > > have it. Cedric had those choices too. I would say that these > choices > > were what affected the death of Cedric, much more than Lily's > choice > > to save her son. serenadust replied: > Again, I don't want to speak for Amy, but I think that her point was > that none of the later choices would have presented themselves if > Lily hadn't saved Harry. I don't think she was saying that Lily's > choice was bad so much as that not all of the results of her choice > were good. > Innermurk replies: See the first part of my response above for the main point I was trying to make. In fact, here it is again for clarity's sake: In light of how intricately every choice we make interacts with everyone else, I don't think you can say that one choice was good or bad because down the line it affected so and so this way, or so and so that way. It has to be more of an immediate thing IMO. It has to be a *direct* result of *that particular choice* and *that choice only* or else there is no way to judge it fairly. > Innermurk concluded earlier: > > So, I don't believe you can judge that her choice was good or bad > on the fact of Cedric's death. > > And it *was not* Harry's fault that Cedric died. serenadust concludes: > No, it's certainly not Harry's fault that Cedric died. However, it > *was* an unintended consequence of Lily's sacrifice, which I think > was Amy's whole point, ie you can never predict that all the > consequences of a "good" act will all be good. > I innermurk conclude now: *My* whole point was that Cedric's death was *not* a consequence of Lily's sacrifice. There were too many other choices and people and things involved to trace it back to that. The only way you can make it a consequence of Lily's choice is to make it Harry's fault that Cedric died. Since you concede that point, it is not a consequence. JMO, Innermurk From yellows at aol.com Tue Jun 3 19:50:41 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 15:50:41 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE - Death of Book 5 Message-ID: <4BFAFE0C.526AD03D.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59242 In a message dated 6/3/2003 10:39:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, esmeriley at hotmail.com writes: <> Actually, I sort of assume most of the time that something must happen to Krum, because I'm convinced of the Harry/Ginny, Ron/Hermione family union down the road. So something will eventually happen to end the Krum relationship, and I suppose he could die. But it won't be very emotional for us... unless... what if Krum is used for something bad with the Death Eaters and he *has* to be killed for some reason... and Ron has to kill him? :) Yeah. I could go for that. Brief Chronicles From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 20:06:14 2003 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 20:06:14 -0000 Subject: Tomboy Lily Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59243 This may have been discussed before - if so - Im sorry to bring it up again but I have long wondered if Lily didn't have any close female friends at Hogwarts. We know of James' close friends and what happened to them later on - but there has been no mention of any close friends of Lily's. Isn't that a bit odd? Was she such a tomboy just hanging around with the boys? It seems somewhat strange that if she DID have close female friends - none of them have cared about their late friends young son who was dramatically left without parents - at the Dursley's even. Wouldn't it have been more likely that at least one or two would have cared enough to come by and see Harry or visit him or go through fire to find out where their dead friend's little boy ended up? If Lily had close female friends these friends must also have known (from Lily) that the Dursley-family probably wouldn't appreciate the idea of Harry living in their house. Just wondering where the close friends of Lily's went..... Inge From ivanova at idcnet.com Tue Jun 3 20:16:50 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 15:16:50 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tomboy Lily References: Message-ID: <006c01c32a0d$1f423540$17ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 59244 Inge wrote: > This may have been discussed before - if so - Im sorry to bring it up > again but I have long wondered if Lily didn't have any close female > friends at Hogwarts. > We know of James' close friends and what happened to them later on - > but there has been no mention of any close friends of Lily's. Isn't > that a bit odd? > Was she such a tomboy just hanging around with the boys? > It seems somewhat strange that if she DID have close female friends - > none of them have cared about their late friends young son who was > dramatically left without parents - at the Dursley's even. > Wouldn't it have been more likely that at least one or two would have > cared enough to come by and see Harry or visit him or go through fire > to find out where their dead friend's little boy ended up? > If Lily had close female friends these friends must also have known > (from Lily) that the Dursley-family probably wouldn't appreciate the > idea of Harry living in their house. > Just wondering where the close friends of Lily's went..... In the end of PS/SS, Hagrid gives Harry a photo album of pictures of his parents. Hagrid said he sent letters to old friends of James and Lily to get pictures to give to Harry. Now, this could simply mean old classmates who were somewhat friendly with the Potters (like Lavender and Seamus would be classified in connection wtih the Trio), but this could also cover any old friends of Lily's. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Jun 3 20:31:54 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 20:31:54 -0000 Subject: Tomboy Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59245 Inge wrote: > This may have been discussed before - if so - Im sorry to bring it up > again but I have long wondered if Lily didn't have any close female > friends at Hogwarts. > We know of James' close friends and what happened to them later on - > but there has been no mention of any close friends of Lily's. Isn't > that a bit odd? We know nothing of Lily, full stop. Only that she made head girl, IIRC (and what her wand was made of). She might have had female friends at school, but considering we don't know anything about *her* I don't find the least amazing we haven't heard about her friends. > Was she such a tomboy just hanging around with the boys? This is the main point I wanted to answer, in fact. I don't think Lily hanged with James and the others all that much. We have good canon of James and Sirius being constantly together, and canon of a strong group, the marauders. No mention of Lily as part of the group. It is my belief that James and Lily were not "officially" going out until quite late, and definetely not really close friends until the late years - maybe they didn't get to know each other until they were made head boy and girl. This is all part of my counter-LOLLIPOPS theory. The entire (LOLLIPOPS) theory is based around the fact that Snape has never mentioned Lily, because it is too painful. My take on this is slightly different: Snape doesn't mention her becasue she never loomed large in his view of the world. Imagine Harry falling in love and subsequentely marrying one of the two unamed Gryffindor girls. Would Draco, 11 years from now, mention them? No, becasue he never knew they existed. (Yes, it is a shacky theory, but I don't like shipping, so I'll hold on to anything). More to the point, until we get more Lily!canon, what little we know points towards an outside-MWPP Lily. > It seems somewhat strange that if she DID have close female friends - > none of them have cared about their late friends young son who was > dramatically left without parents - at the Dursley's even. > Wouldn't it have been more likely that at least one or two would have > cared enough to come by and see Harry or visit him or go through fire > to find out where their dead friend's little boy ended up? > If Lily had close female friends these friends must also have known > (from Lily) that the Dursley-family probably wouldn't appreciate the > idea of Harry living in their house. > Just wondering where the close friends of Lily's went..... > > Inge If Lily had friends that didn't get killed by DEs and that could've taken an interest in Harry, they're still impotent to do something about it. Without an official position (like being Godmothers or something), they wouldn't have got past Dumbledore's/MoM's defenses of the boy. He is at the Dursleys for his protection, after all. I do seem to remember that harry notices witches and wizards meeting him when he's outside the house (one being Daedalus Diggle). Maybe some of the others are Lily's old school friends. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 20:32:25 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 20:32:25 -0000 Subject: Calling the Knight Bus and the Sorting of Dean Thomas Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59246 Mariana wrote: > My question is: what or who makes the Knight Bus appear at Magnolia > Crescent? Now me: My theory is that the Ministry of Magic sent the bus. I think the Ministry was monitoring Harry's movements after Sirius Black's escape from Azkaban in an effort to protect Harry from Black. If this theory is accurate, it would explain how the Ministry knew about the Aunt Marge inflation incident (in order to dispatch members of the Accidental Magic Reversal Department to puncture her), and why Fudge was awaiting Harry's arrival at the Leaky Cauldron. Hickengruendler wrote: > I have read quite a few posts, that JKR made a mistake in the first > book and forgot to sort Dean Thomas. Now me: This is a difference between the US and the UK editions of SS/PS. In PS, Dean Thomas isn't mentioned during the sorting, but he is mentioned in SS: " three people left to be sorted. `Thomas, Dean,' a black boy even taller than Ron, joined Harry at the Gryffindor table." You can see the US-UK SS/PS edition differences here: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/differences-ss.html ~Phyllis From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 20:51:50 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 13:51:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: RE - of Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030603205150.38703.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59247 Kelly Grosskreutz wrote: She said she thought that question was very > interesting, and that the person would have to read book 7 to find out. I > don't remember exactly where I found this or what the exact quote was, but > from this I would say that he will survive the next two books. Now, when we > are sitting here discussing what might happen in book 7, then I can see > bringing up Snape as a possible candidate. Daniel wrote: Alothough you may be right in saying that Snape doesnt die in book five, you could still be wrong. Maybe he does die in book five, but we only find out about his previous love interests in book seven. Or perhaps we could meet the woman he loved? Maybe she was a eater...Maybe she was the woman from the courtroom scene that said the dark lord would return. Just a wild theory, but who knows? Morgan There is no way Snape is going to be allowed to croack AT LEAST before book 7. No promises there but in the meantime he is far too too much an interesting and fun protagonist for Harry for the author to deprive herself and her readers of this character. We are stuck with him for a while at % Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kim.dawkins at charter.net Tue Jun 3 21:03:26 2003 From: kim.dawkins at charter.net (Kimberly Dawkins) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 16:03:26 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tomboy Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59248 On Tuesday, June 3, 2003, at 03:06 PM, Inge wrote: > > Just wondering where the close friends of Lily's went..... > You know...we don't know much about Arabella Figg...how old she is really (could be using Polyjuice Potion), how she was involved in the *old gang*, etc. It is possible she was a close friend of Lily's and volunteered to keep watch over Harry at the Dursley's because of this relationship. Kim [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Jun 3 20:59:27 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 16:59:27 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: RE - of Book 5 Message-ID: <41.2f68daa8.2c0e662f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59249 > Kelly Grosskreutz wrote: > She said she thought that question was very > >interesting, and that the person would have to read book 7 to find > out. I > >don't remember exactly where I found this or what the exact quote > was, but > >from this I would say that he will survive the next two books. > Now, when we > >are sitting here discussing what might happen in book 7, then I can > see > >bringing up Snape as a possible candidate. Missed this first time around - this was from an interview on NPR. I don't have a transcript (not on my machine), but here's a link to the interview audio. The statement comes about halfway into the interview. J. K. Rowling and the Harry Potter Series. Originally aired on October 12, 1999 Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Jun 3 21:25:50 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 21:25:50 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's charisma (FFW from OT, was: Intrinsically Good magic) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59250 > Voldy is not a very rousing leader. Often evil > leaders through history have been inspiring, and have commanded the > kind of respect (and fear, granted) that promotes sacrifice and even > life-debts. But the minute Voldy is gone, the fear, his sole tool of > office, is gone too. > > Cheers, > > Dumbledad. I picked this comment by Dumbledad on OT chatter and, since we've already carried over the original post to here, I thought I might bring this one too. It is an interesting thought: is fear of Voldemort really all that ties the DEs together? I have trouble believing this. Fear is built over time. For people to fear Voldemort, he must have made himself famous by commiting attrocities. Now, We don't really know much of how Voldemort's reign of terror started, but I don't think he just arrived one day, started killing muggles and all the DEs, like Lucius, suddenly were trembling in terror and thus joined. The thing is, Lucius has never striked me as the sort to be a follower unless there is big advantage in the near future. Voldemort surely promises in the GG that loyal followers will be rewarded, just as Peter was given his new shiny hand. AND Voldemort, when still Tom Riddle, was a likable guy, by all accounts. Dumbledore describes him as "clever, handsome boy who was once Head Boy" (PoA, ch. 18, Br. Ed.). That, to me, certainly sounds charismatic. Then, by Riddle's own account (which is open to suspicion, of course), I got the impression that he had almost all the teachers neatly tied around his little finger (except Dumbledore himself, who never trusted him after the CoS events of Riddle's time). No, all in all, I think that Voldemort can be an ingratiating fellow when he wants to. Of course, he promises things that will attract the sort of people he needs for his DEs: power, dominion, immortality and who knows what else. But my point is that he uses more than just fear. Fear is a very unstable emotion, which easily lends itself to traition. And yet the DEs come back as soon as Voldemort demonstrates power once more. Probably because they do believe in his promises. If they only feared him, they could run to the MoM, or even plot amongst themselves to destroy him. But he holds over them promises that they're willing to go for. And promises are believed only if the one that makes it is a charismatic guy, just like evil (and non-evil) leaders are. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who meant vermillion in an earlier post, not bermellon. He seems to have confused the two words and ended posting his own language's version of it. From mmemalkin at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 21:37:24 2003 From: mmemalkin at yahoo.com (mmemalkin) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 21:37:24 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups]RE: Polyjuice potion and animal transformations, was Hopes for Book 5 In-Reply-To: <001101c328e8$eb79af10$6401a8c0@helenw1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59251 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Helen R. Granberry" wrote: > > > One thread that has been left dangling and might offer plot > possibilities is the Hermione-turns-into-a-cat problem. We now know > that pollyjuice and an animal part turns you partly into that animal, > and that it is reversable, if not easily. Why were we told all that > if not to set up for a future plot point? Could a trapped person > pollyjuice a hippogryff hair and fly away? Could a dying person > pollyjuice a phoenix feather and resurrect? It might be worthwhile to > carry a flask of pollyjuice and a collection of animal artifacts when > one goes into dangerous or uncertain situations. > > If Ms. Bulstrode's cat wasn't inserted into the pollyjuice episode > expressly for this, then what other possible reason could there be > for turning Hermione into a kitty? Was it to keep Hermione out of the > Slytherin common room? What purpose would that provide? Does anyone > have any other ideas? Just thought I'd throw this pebble into the > pond and see where the ripples go .... > > ~Constance Vigilance > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Oh wow, I never even thought of that. What would happen if one kept a > phoenix feather on hand for such occasions? > > > > Really, why didn't Hermione get to go with Harry and Ron? It was not, in > anyway, particularly important to the plot of CoS. Much in the same way > the polyjuice potion itself was a dead end. Malfoy was not the heir of > Slytherin... but the polyjuice potion in CoS set up the use of the > polyjuice potion in GoF. Perhaps Hermione's unsuccessful animal > transformation was a setup for another type of animal transformation? > > > > Helen > > > > --------------- > MmeMalkin: I hate to rain on the parade, but I don't think polyjuice potions and animal parts would be very useful. It only does a partial transformation and leaves you stuck that way for weeks. I see the kitty transformation as pure comic relief. Hermione the perfectionist had the whole operation planned in excrutiating detail, and it went off without a hitch, except for one little item... Just when you think you've got Life by the tail, it turns around and gives you one instaed! :-P From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Jun 3 21:15:58 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 17:15:58 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE - Death of Book 5 Message-ID: <189.1a43048b.2c0e6a0e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59252 In a message dated 6/3/2003 11:59:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, esmeriley at hotmail.com writes: > Hedwig - As you probably know 'Hedwig' means 'secret weapon' (I can't > remember where I read that, sorry) and I always thought she would die > saving Harry. According to my sources, Hedwig is a German name meaning "refuge in battle". Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 21:56:50 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 21:56:50 -0000 Subject: Tomboy Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59253 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: > This may have been discussed before - if so - Im sorry to bring it up > again but I have long wondered if Lily didn't have any close female > friends at Hogwarts. > We know of James' close friends and what happened to them later on - > but there has been no mention of any close friends of Lily's. Isn't > that a bit odd? > Was she such a tomboy just hanging around with the boys? We never hear too much if Hermione has any female friends outside the trio, too. Possibly Ginny, but otherwise it doesn't seem that way. Still, since the novel is from Harry's POV, we may not hear about the long midnight talks she has with Lavendar and Pavarti because Harry doesn't really know about them. Anyways, it does draw a parallel between Hermione and Lily (and go away all you H/H shippers, that's not what I'm implying). More a long the lines that there will be striking similairities between Hermione and Lily because perhaps Hermione is acting as substitute mom. Anyways, to the point I was getting to before I rambled off on the whole Hermione/Lily parallel--Just because Hermione hangs around the boys all the time, I'd hardly call her a tom boy. So I don't know if Lily was a tom boy or not, but if my parallel theory holds out she probably wasn't, just a girl who felt more comfortable hanging out with the guys. Serena From yellows at aol.com Tue Jun 3 21:57:45 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 17:57:45 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tomboy Lily Message-ID: <4B922D20.3885D3C1.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59254 In a message dated 6/3/2003 3:06:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, Inge writes: <> Well, when I read the books, I often see a (however hazy) parallel between HRH and Harry's parents' gang. It seems like lots of the things HRH go through are similar to what James and Lily and Sirius, etc., went through while they were students at Hogwarts. It's part of the charm of the book. Though Harry can't ever be close to his parents, he feels close just knowing he's in their school, doing the things they did. I sometimes look at Hermione as Lily. Though she won't marry Harry in the long-run, she's a girl who only hangs out with a couple of guys. It doesn't seem odd to us that Hermione doesn't have any girl friends. I always thought Lily probably hung out with the guys just the same as Hermione does. Brief Chronicles From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 22:06:00 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 22:06:00 -0000 Subject: OOP Cover Issues Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59255 Ok, up to this point I've heard all sorts of speculation about what exactly is depicted on the cover of OOP (and I've contributed my fair share too :)) Anyways, I was at the book store (Waldenbooks)today and they had flyer with cover blown up on it. So I studied it. Many people (on this and on other lists) claim to see some sort of figure in one of the doors. So I looked, there is no figure. However, there are candles, similiar to those floating around the room. In fact when you look at the picture closely, it looks like the candles are floating into the doors. For instance, at first glance it looks like the candles are being "blown" by a mysterious wind but actually, that motion in the flame comes from them moving. I'm not sure on the significance of the this but I thought I'd post my observation and get some feed back. Serena From patricia at obscure.org Tue Jun 3 22:48:56 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 18:48:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Saving every Sickle (Was: Percy and the Weasleys' finances) In-Reply-To: <393801947.20030603113144@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59256 On Tue, 3 Jun 2003, Susanne wrote: > For some reason I have a hard time believing there are no > "newer style" used dress robes available at all, maybe just > not in maroon. I don't have trouble believeing that at all. Dress robes are not something Hogwarts usually requires of its students. Therefore, there won't be the kind of market in second-hand student-sized dress robes that there apparently is for everyday robes. And very few adults would sell off their dress robes -- they're not going to outgrow them, so they are only likely to get rid of them if they are very worn (and probably not suitable for continued use) or out of fashion, like the robes Ron ended up with. Really, how much of a market is there for used tuxedos or prom gowns? That's essentially what the dress robes are. While it's not impossible in our world to find a used tux or prom dress, the selection is very limited and finding a current style in your size that suits your body and complexion is a tricky business. That's what Molly had to try to do for *four* kids, none of whom were with her to give their opinions or try on the robes to see how they look. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Jun 3 23:04:22 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 16:04:22 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Saving every Sickle (Was: Percy and the Weasleys' finances) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <914696339.20030603160422@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 59257 Hi, Tuesday, June 03, 2003, 3:48:56 PM, Patricia wrote: > Therefore, there > won't be the kind of market in second-hand student-sized dress robes > that > there apparently is for everyday robes. Well, Ron is tall, so could probably wear adult robes, or Molly could possibly shorten them, should they be too long. And in the WW there are people (like the Malfoys, for example) who'd probably not wear their dress robes until completely worn out. But I think this has gotten to the point where I'm going to agree to disagree. I think Molly could have handled the situation better. Ron could have to, of course, but many kids this age just don't quite have the maturity to take something like this gracefully. Other people think Molly did just fine and Ron is just a rude, jealous kid who embarrassed his mom. And probably many levels in between those two statements ;) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From pegruppel at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 00:09:55 2003 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (pegruppel) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 00:09:55 -0000 Subject: Polyjuice Potions... Dead or alive? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59258 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gopotter2004" wrote: > Now, I realize that Crouch, Jr. had to keep Moody alive to get hair > and ask him questions and such like that. But was it indeed > necessary to keep him alive in a potion sense? Couldn't you just > keep a few finger nails (already dead anyway) of anyone dead, and > pop them in for a quick-use potion? Sure, you would have a limited > number of times to make the potion before using up the supply, but > how confused would Harry be if he met his father, or mother? He > would probably know it wasn't them, but he would want so badly for > it to be, it would probably throw him off pretty badly. Just a > thought. > > Becky Me: That's something I've wondered about, too. When Moody was found alive in the trunk, I was surprised (not the only thing that I found surprising--I've eaten large meals of red herring). The Polyjuice Potion only affects a person's appearance. So, it *seems* that the hair of a dead person *ought* to work. For someone who doesn't find handling a corpse too creepy, that might be a solution to the problem of taking someone else's place, without the risk of the other person wandering into the room. That makes for awkward questions at parties. That brings me to my main point. Was it Moody's death Voldemort was talking about when he said: "One more murder . . . my faithful servant at Hogwarts . . ." (GOF, American edition, p.12)? Maybe Voldemort's intention was to have Peter and Junior kill Moody and use his corpse's hair. Barty realized he couldn't impersonate Moody without keeping him alive for questioning, so he stuffed him in the trunk rather than doing him in. That, I think, is going to be one of the mistakes that leads to Voldemort's downfall. As I read somewhere (long, long ago), "Never leave a living enemy behind you." Peg From odilefalaise at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 01:11:51 2003 From: odilefalaise at yahoo.com (Odile Falaise) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 18:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Polyjuice Potions... Dead or alive? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030604011151.42843.qmail@web13115.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59259 Becky ("gopotter2004") wrote: <<>> Then Peg wrote: <<>> And now moi, Odile, chiming in with: Let me start off by saying: ewwwww!! But yeah, I thought that was weird too, that Moody was alive all along in Moody!Crouch Jr.'s trunk. However, since Moody!Crouch had the trunk with him at Hogwarts, imagine the horrific stench that a rotting corpse wouold produce. He would have certainly attracted some unwanted attention! (ewwww!) Then Peg went on: <<>> Me again (Odile): Another good point. That saying brings to mind another saying (I know it from the X-Files, though I have a feeling that Deep Throat wasn't the first to say it): "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer." You can't get all that much closer than a foot locker! ^_~ Odile, going to bed now.... From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 01:14:50 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 18:14:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Saving every Sickle (Was: Percy and the Weasleys' finances) In-Reply-To: <65210701385.20030603074320@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20030604011450.2109.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59260 --- Susanne wrote: > > > Hi, > > Tuesday, June 03, 2003, 1:06:03 AM, Pen wrote: > > > Perhaps she was embarrassed. Her son was rubbing > in the fact that they > > were too poor to afford good robes, in front of > their visitor. > > Perhaps, but she could have avoided the whole > dilemma by > taking Ron aside earlier and explaining, instead of > trying > to sneak the "dress" in. > Ron was just as embarrassed, and he's a teenager. > They tend > to be emotional and act immature, sometimes ;) She wasn't trying to sneak it in. She put all his clothes together. It was among them. And what is there to explain? I think she thought he'd recognize them as dress robes. And that she had to get used ones. The only question left is why. And she couldn't tell him why. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From linlou43 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 01:52:00 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 01:52:00 -0000 Subject: Polyjuice Potions... Dead or alive? In-Reply-To: <20030604011151.42843.qmail@web13115.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59261 Becky ("gopotter2004") wrote: <<>> Me(Linda): Now this makes me look at polyjuice potion use from a muggle pov. An organ transplant can not take place unless the organ in question has been out of the donors body for a very short period of time. Perhaps a similar principle applies to whatever is taken from the person being impersonated for the potion. Notice also that Hermione tells HR to get hair from Crabbe and Goyel. She herself takes a hair off Millicent's robes. Dumblefore points out that Crouch Jr has been pulling out Moody's hair all year. I don't think the time contraints are quite as stringent as an organ transplant. After all, Hermione got her hair at the dueling club. But maybe it has something to do with the degradation of what muggles call DNA or something along the same lines? -Linda From linlou43 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 02:16:18 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 02:16:18 -0000 Subject: Tomboy Lily In-Reply-To: <4B922D20.3885D3C1.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59262 Brief Chronicals wrote: > she's a girl who only hangs out with a couple of guys. It doesn't seem odd to us that Hermione doesn't have any girl friends. > I,Linda write: The bringing up of Hermione's close friendship with HR brought a new question to my mind. Why exactly did she essentially shadow Harry? Even before the incident with the troll she showed in inordinate level of interest in Harry. Was it simply because of his fame? Was it an intelectual interest- wanting to learn how LV was defeated by Harry as a baby? She seemed to have appointed herself as Harry's concience very early on. We have several examples. At the flying lessons it is she who tells Harry not to go after Malfoy. Was this JUST her aversion to rule breaking or something more? She makes a point to comment on Harry's new firebolt, just happening to be in HR's path when they are bringing it up to the dormitory. Did anyone else notice this? (If this has already been discussed I apologize.) -Linda...Would Essential Shadow be a good band name? From artsylynda at aol.com Wed Jun 4 03:25:16 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 23:25:16 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Polyjuice potions - dead or alive? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59263 Odile: > imagine the horrific stench that a rotting corpse > wouold produce. He would have certainly attracted > some unwanted attention In GoF, Crouch Jr. transfigured his father's body into a single bone and buried that (in Hagrid's worked up ground for the nifflers to dig in), so the corpse smell really isn't something he'd be worried about -- he could always transform Moody's body into a single bone if he needed to. And imagine how smelly Snape's classroom must be, or Hagrid's hut, or the greenhouses -- it could be all those at Hogwart's aren't as bothered by "icky" things as we Muggles are. I mean, really, would you drink that nasty polyjuice potion with Crabbe or Goyle's hair in it? Eauwwwww! As for the "dead or alive" question -- I suspect the "donor" needs to be alive for the potion to work. Otherwise, dark wizards would go around disguised as people they've killed -- Pettigrew wouldn't have to be a rat all his life, he could take on the appearance of someone else (even Bertha Jorkins) -- so I think the hairs must need to be from a live person. JMO. Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kristen at sanderson-web.com Wed Jun 4 04:09:56 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (GKJPO) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 04:09:56 -0000 Subject: Veela reaction - any connection to strength? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59264 I am (probably like most of you) re-reading GoF in anticipation of the big event. Harry reacted to the Veela the first time, but after that seemed unaffected. He knew it was there, but did not show any susceptibility to it. This is very similar to his reaction to the Imperio spell. The first time, he was affected until he got the hang of it. Connection? Is this an indication of Harry's strength as a wizard? Also, does it bother anyone else that Real!Moody, the biggest Auror of all time, is so susceptible to the Imperius curse? It's ironic that Fake!Moody taught the 4th year students about resisting it while holding the Real!Moody successfully captive with it. Also, it occurred to me that JKR did not describe Draco's reaction to the Veela at the QWC - or, for that matter, to Fleur. That's too bad as I think it could have been a good comical moment. Kristen (who just now noticed that Dobby has green eyes too - hmmmm) From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Wed Jun 4 04:40:57 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 00:40:57 EDT Subject: Half-Non Humans Message-ID: <1c6.aa1f36f.2c0ed259@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59265 As always, forgive me if this has been discussed to death...but a thought just occured to me. There is clear evidence in the books that humans can have children with non humans. (ex: Hagrid [Giantess mother, wizard father] ) or the bloodline can be passed down (Fleur [Veela grandmother] ) with the child obtaining one or more of the attributes of the Non Human side of the family. [Hagrid's size...Fleur's looks and overdose of pheromones] Other than the Giants, I don't think we've really seen much reaction towards people who are half non-human. At least not negative, anyway. I'm digressing a little though. What I am wondering is...if a person is half wizard/half non human...are they considered fullbloods because they have magical blood? And if not...how would those big on the whole pureblood thing feel? I always figured they would only be against those with muggle blood...but I'm sure there are magical creatures who can have children with humans who they might view as acceptable. And can two non-humans produce human children? (the same way two muggles can produce a witch/wizard). I hope my thoughts are straight. And make sense (to someone) ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lilpurplealdy at netscape.net Wed Jun 4 05:16:33 2003 From: lilpurplealdy at netscape.net (Juliet) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 05:16:33 -0000 Subject: Tomboy Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59266 > I,Linda write: > We have several examples. At the > flying lessons it is she who tells Harry not to go after Malfoy. Was > this JUST her aversion to rule breaking or something more? She makes > a point to comment on Harry's new firebolt, just happening to be in > HR's path when they are bringing it up to the dormitory. Did anyone > else notice this? (If this has already been discussed I apologize.) In all of these cases, Hermione is bossing Harry around, in a sense. At flying lessons, she repeats what the -teacher- told them to do. When she sees the Firebolt(IIRC), she is commenting on something about how "Do you think this is a reward for breaking the rules?" I've never seen it as an interest in Harry, but as Hermione just being Hermione. Something that supports the above: the instance in PoA where Snape calles Hermione an "insufferable know-it-all" and nearly brings her to tears. This enrages the entire class, especially Ron, but as the text states, all of them had told Hermione atleast once(though for Ron it was much more often) that she was a know-it-all. She's also often described as "bossy." I see Hermione telling-off Harry in those cases just as something she normally does- to anyone. ~Aldrea From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 05:21:44 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 05:21:44 -0000 Subject: Polyjuice Potions... Dead or alive? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59267 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pegruppel" wrote: > > ...edited.... > > That brings me to my main point. Was it Moody's death Voldemort was > talking about when he said: "One more murder . . . my faithful > servant at Hogwarts . . ." (GOF, American edition, p.12)? > > ...edited... > > Peg bboy_mn: Off on a tangent, it is not widely known... well, it's widely known here but not to the general public, that the British Edition does not say, "One more murder....", it says, "One more curse....". It's been discussed here a couple of times before. One can only assume that us rather slow witted Americans wouldn't have been able to figure out what they meant by 'curse', so the publisher had to spell it out for us, or at least the publisher had to spell out what HIS opinion of it was. Sorry, but there are several examples in the books where the American publisher completely changed the meaning of something in the book. There is another example that my late night over tired mind can't recall right now, but it's in the beginning of SS/PS and I think has something to do with Sirius. Anyway, this 'license' the American publisher has taken has always been a sore spot with me. Changing a cultural reference is one thing, but rewriting the story is another. A third example has been referenced recently, during the first sorting ceremony, Deam Thomas is not sorted in the British edition, although he remains a character throughout the series. Just thought I would throw that in. bboy_mn From akhillin at rcn.com Tue Jun 3 22:13:33 2003 From: akhillin at rcn.com (Anita Hillin) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 17:13:33 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tomboy Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59268 On Tuesday, June 03, 2003 4:03 PM Kim wrote: > You know...we don't know much about Arabella Figg...how old she is really (could be using Polyjuice Potion), how she was involved in the *old gang*, etc. It is possible she was a close friend of Lily's and volunteered to keep watch over Harry at the Dursley's because of this relationship. Anita replies: When I saw Arabella Figg mentioned at the end of GOF, I presumed she had been using polyjuice to "replace" old Mrs. Figg (Arabella's Muggle mother or grandmother?) and was a contemporary of James and Lily. That would explain the cabbage smell in the house, and why she wasn't always available when the Dursleys needed her. akh [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silmariel at telefonica.net Tue Jun 3 20:34:05 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 22:34:05 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another Dementor question In-Reply-To: <20030603.104707.-919563.0.emeleel@juno.com> References: <20030603.104707.-919563.0.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: <200306032234.06007.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 59269 Melanie L Ellis wrote: > Hmmm, I can't think of an instance where they practice "lies" especially > since they don't speak. Can you elaborate? silmariel: Speaking is not importand. Lies stand for deceiving. It doesn't mater how you communicate if you (or your species) are able to get profit by means of fooling your opponent. Many animal do this as a strategy for survival, some pasive (chamaleon), some active and elaborate (a female Alpha-paired monkey mating the beta-male while the alpha is not looking), but we also do. This 'lie' was of an entire power that can unbalance a society changing sides. At least concede me they are top-intelligence-scoreboard animals. I can hardly elaborate in english, but I'll try. When I said they were examples I was trying to give some logic reasons for a 'fact' I had always asumed in an intuitive way, that all of a sudden, thanks to your idea, wasn't so true. That was the meaning of (quoting myself) "I was convinced they were intelligent until you raised the subject" Maybe it's too much roleplaying on my side, but I have got used to a whole lot of thinking dark creatures and I just put Dementors in the same sack > You may be at least partially right. I'm not sure what kind of > "agreement" they have with the MoM about staying at Azkaban. The > implication certainly seems to be that they have an agreement to stay > there in exchange for feeding off the prisoner's souls. But they may be > just as much prisoners as the inmates themselves. Something along the > lines of "Stay here and you live and get nourishment. Leave without > permission, and we'll kill you." (Assuming they can be killed.) What a mental picture! Wizards training Dementors as animals. MoM ranking: XXXXX... which makes me think, do the MoM clothes them? Animals are not usually clothed. Zombies, however, are, and they aren't the brightest of creatures (sorry I'm topicing off). Yes they can be prisoners. But then, I don't understand why is Dumbledore worried. If they are prisoners, they can be managed. That's leave without permission, and we'll kill you. Maybe he is concerned because he thinks the MoM unable to see how dangerous they are. > I don't think they're all that intelligent, though, the more I think > about it. They were easily fooled not once but twice by prisoner switches > (Barty Crouch Jr and his mother; Sirius in dog form). I suppose 'Robin-Hood-Like' escapes didn't categorice medieval prison guards as a non-intelligent category of beings (I know, I know, I shouldn't use this argument, it so non-realistic). More seriously, ?how they maintain Azkaban? ?how they receive visitors, how they feed prisoners? ?doesn't anyone supervises them? I think it all can be sumed to ?do you need to be intelligent to maintain a prison? what do you think? I think is easy to over relax when your prisoners are ketp all day in a druged-like state, anyway. >I think the command > to stay out of Hogwarts was akin to telling a dog, "You may not come in > the house!" but they did it anyway when the temptation was too great, > just like a dog might follow a cat into the house if he's chasing it. That's a way of looking at it. But I can also reason they found a security breach and exploited it. If you tell me not to come, I'll wait for an ocasion when is easy to fool you. Maybe I obey you. Maybe I'll obey you to a certain point. Maybe, from time to time, I can try and push the line, get a little power, or just get my way one time because I don't want to obey you, and hey, I can always say that was 'animal instinct' (the dementors don't even have to say: we assume it). Dementors feed on what humans have. So it is a primary instinct whether you are intelligent or not. But I've played a few vampires. They were intelligent, but had moments of mental blindness. Those moments could be faked. > As for "betraying" and changing sides, it would be like tempting a dog > away from his yard with a juicy bone. Yeah, they get nourishment at > Azkaban, but Voldie can offer them treats beyond their wildest dreams. > One hopes that the interments at Azkaban have slowed down since the > Voldie power years, I hope so, for the WW justice is frightening. so they're probably getting hungry, and if he goes to > them and says, "Look what I've got!" they'll come running. Yes. If they don't have ethics, if they are animals (a trained animal that not only feeds on you, It has so narrow(*) an ecological niche that he can only feed of you) they will certainly do. (*) absurd footnote: they could feed of other inteligent creatures, I suposse, but still keeps narrow. This get them to be a sort of 'inter-species' parasit or useful intelligent being detector, which can be argued they prey on emotions, but cows also have emotions and I don't imagine a dementor feeding of a cow. And yet they seem so bestial (you are right), almost blind, I have imagined them smelling their preys... I think that's all. Forgive me if I sounded rude or unrespectful. I didn't mean to. It is too hard to elaborate in this idiom, this post has take me two hours writing, so I just try to make myself understand. silmariel From lb140900 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 22:30:55 2003 From: lb140900 at yahoo.com (Louis Badalament) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 22:30:55 -0000 Subject: Hermione And Bulgaria Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59270 Greetings. I'm Louis Badalament, first-time poster, hello. Onto my question; I remember Hermione saying at one point in Goblet of Fire that Viktor invited her to Bulgaria with him over summer break. Personal opinions, now; do you think Hermione would have taken Viktor up on his offer? If so, why and how long do you think she'd have stayed? If not, why? Also, if anyone could answer this; is there anything *touristy* down in Bulgaria? I'm wondering where Viktor would take Hermione if she got into a sightseeing mood. Great To Be Here, Louis Badalament From salsal19 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 22:54:32 2003 From: salsal19 at yahoo.com (Sally Unchester) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 15:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More thoughts on the Book 5 Death In-Reply-To: <1320E6D8.30C63719.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030603225432.63450.qmail@web80501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59271 yellows at aol.com wrote: In a message dated 6/3/2003 1:17:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, bboy writes: <> ok so I know I have posted already on this issue but here is my own opinion which I just recently came up....how come noone has seemed to think that maybe perhaps its going to be Filch? I can't see it being the Creevey brothers,it just doesn't seem to fit. I can't see it as Dobby either but maybe. I somewhat agree with the Dumbledore or Lupin but something makes me think it is not them either. Any way so thats my opinion.... Counting the days til book five.... Sally Yahoo! 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Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dsbpink at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 23:44:03 2003 From: dsbpink at yahoo.com (optionspink) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 23:44:03 -0000 Subject: Dursley's Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59272 If the Dursley's dislike the Potter's as much as it seems why did they take Harry in? Why not just send him to an orphanage as suggested by Aunt Marge in PoA? Obviously, he is greatly protected on Privet Drive but who originally forced the Dursley's to keep Harry and why? Pinks From christianrooster at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 00:22:51 2003 From: christianrooster at hotmail.com (Mark) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 00:22:51 -0000 Subject: OOP Cover Issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59273 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Serena Moonsilver" wrote: > For instance, at first > glance it looks like the candles are being "blown" by a mysterious > wind but actually, that motion in the flame comes from them moving. > It's not just the flame that trails (as if it was the wind), but the candle stick's afterglow that's also trailing. I'm convinced that the candlesticks are moving. It seems they're circling him counter-clockwise. Is his wand making them circle or is he trying to stop them from circling? (We'll find out in 3 weeks, no doubt) Mark From ArachneWebbstir at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 00:28:04 2003 From: ArachneWebbstir at hotmail.com (Arachne Webbstir) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 00:28:04 +0000 Subject: Investigating Origins of Rowling's Inspirations: Why do it? (another essay) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59274 For a long time, I've been wanting to share some of my findings and thoughts about Rowling's work with other HP fans. I still don't have much time to spend online, yet I want to try to post a lot before "P-Day", June 21. A number of the books that I've looked at written about Rowling's work seem to head off in the wrong direction from what she intended. By uncovering apparently "unknown" sources of her inspiration, I hope to help provide a more useful road map for the journey. I also hope some of my findings may give fresh topics for discussion for fans waiting in line at bookstores on "The Day of the Phoenix"! One of my approaches to the study of Rowling's books posits that JKR did not create her HP universe in a total vacuum, but incorporated experiences and ideas from from the world around her; events she saw or lived, books she read. Therefore, clues to the meanings, workings, and purpose of elements in the HP canon may be found in such "outside materials"--especially in books she read and loved in her own impressionable childhood and apprenticeship as a budding writer. Right now, I don't have the time or computer knowledge to set up a website of my own, but perhaps a corner might be found somewhere for any discoveries of mine not already widely known in HP scholarship circles. Perhaps call it W.E.B.B.S.T.I.R.'S. Detectionary (World Embraces Books Beyond Seven Titles In Rowling's Series). Sadly, HP fan websites recommended in published books as very interesting and informative, had to hang up "out of order signs" before I could ever see them. These include those by Rudi Heins, Jenna, and Christie Chang. Maybe readers who remember those can inform me if what I report was earlier published there. Below are a few samples I was going to embed in another planned post, so that even admirers of Draco Malfoy might get some healthy exposure to wholesome, innocent fun. Maybe the buzz about those books will get even Draconites to read some warm and loving family fare. One can hope. Since Rowling studied French and literature, it's very likely she read something by Anatole France, a French author and critic awarded Nobel Prize in Literature in 1921. His novel PENGUIN ISLAND is available as e-book, although I have 1931 "Thinker's Library" edition, translated into English by A.W. Evans. PENGUIN ISLAND includes brutal King DRACO the Great (Book III, part II), descendant of Kraken the Dragon. On the same page is mentioned a St. FOY. Anatole France's satirical fantasy is a mock history of an imaginary island whose inhabitants are descended from penguins, transformed into human beings after accidentally being baptized by elderly holy man MAEL, who mistook them for short, solemn people. PENGUIN ISLAND is not for children or even teenagers, as it requires the ability to take what is read with a grain of salt, rather than purely at face value, to see the tongue-in-cheek real writer behind the character he created of a wide-eyed, naive historian, purported author of this invented history which skewers real records of all too human behavior. Knowledge of both history and humans is needed to appreciate, for instance, the story of Oddoul the monk (Book III, Part I: "Brian the Good and Queen Glamorgan") which is a twist on both the biblical temptations of Christ, and Joseph and Potiphar's wife. I wonder if this passsage about Draco the Great's Christian ancestor may have inspired Monty Python's movie "Life of Brian".... The Penguin people were long enemies of the Porpoises. Might that be related to Nearly Headless Nick's surname of Porpinton? (I've an idea where "de Mimsey" comes from, BESIDES Lewis Carrol's JABBERWOCKY, credited in site on HP Lexicon links. I'll leave a clue about book in a future post.) BRITANNICA JUNIOR ENCYCLOPDEDIA (1969 edition) says Anatole France "was for 30 years one of the leading figures in French literature....He looked at mankind in light of certain of its weaknesses and failings. As time went on, however, France changed his view somewhat and showed how these failings were sometimes connected with lofty and generous aims". Perhaps Rowling's plans for HP will follow a simular path. More specific article on AF by Pierre-Georges Castex in 1969 ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA for adults (yes, at the moment, my nearest library is very strapped for cash) says in the last of his four books about Professor Bergeret, that character--like AF in real life--"takes the part of Jewish captain unjustly condemned for treason" to Devil's Island (think Dementors/Azkaban) in famous Dreyfus Affair. *** I found an even older book I know Rowling must have read which includes an important plot element of CHAMBER OF SECRETS. Book also contains uncommon names Draco, Piers (as in Dudley's bestfriend/henchman) and most conclusively, MUGGLES. The later being barred from the premises of protagonists fits in with inforced split between Rowling's non-magic and wizarding worlds. I won't reveal the title or author right now, for several reasons: First, to keep you examiing my future posts for clues; and secondly, to give a chance for impoverished HP devotees (aside from myself) to track down and read this "secret source", before all copies disappear, even from libraries, snatched by wealthy collectors--I sympathize with Madame Pince (see AD's Foreword to QUIDDITCH THROUGH THE AGES). An example: much more recently out-of-print biography of Alan Rickman (the movies' Snape), currently is priced at about $200.00 (TWO HUNDRED DOLLARS) per copy, due to limited supply and heavy demand. If she had consulted me, I could have silenced the LEGEND OF RA author (her last name is the same as a USA frozen food company). Rowling's source book for "Muggles" went out of print before her parents were born. That non-fantasy book has other themes creatively echoed in HP, which I may reveal later. If you do discover this seminal work, please keep it secret. Perhaps those of us in the know can quietly relish the fact we belong to an exclusive group, "the Order of the Bookworm". A reference to the Phoenix is also appropriate, as members have ability to detect elements of old tales reborn into new stories. This concept is one I plan to pursue in future posts. There is yet a third source I have reason to believe Rowling read which describes a boy with characteristics like Draco, plus other items I connect with HP. Also non-fantasy, it's one of "wholesome fun" texts I mentioned above. As stating the case for my belief needs a long post by itself (it grew as fast as a dragon hatchling), I may have to break that down into several sections. So please "tune in again" for eventual essay. (I'm also a fan of what is called in South Korea, "continuing daily drama", and in Latin Amerca, "telenovelas", TV versions of entertainments like those penned by Charles Dickens, Thackery, etc. Arachne Webbstir P.S. If necessary to get this "published" on HPFGU, I will reveal the title--but only to administrative staff that "needs to know". Watch for my email with more information. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 01:18:00 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 01:18:00 +0000 Subject: "Life-Debt" Gripe Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59275 While at work today, I thought of something I've been meaning to post to this list for a while: I see relatively frequent, almost casual references to "life debts" between characters. (It's okay - just to save some typing, I know what the concept means - I tend to leave out lengthy expository trains of thought like that in e-mail when I assume everyone has the same knowledge base I do - so please, nobody post a long discussion of the meaning of "life debt" and the cultures in which it crops up. ;-)) Yet nowhere does the phrase actually appear in canon that I know of. Anyone got a cite they care to share? I ask because while a nice idea, I think that it's a tacit assumption that might not really hold in the WW on the part of fandom that any of these characters owe or feel they owe a life debt to another. Just because it's common among world cultures and in literature (the most recent media reference *I* can recall is Qui-Gon Jinn speaking to Boss Nass about Jar-Jar Binks in "Phantom Menace") doesn't mean that's how JKR is writing in the Potterverse. Any thoughts? Felinia Beauclerc _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 01:57:44 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 01:57:44 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Purpose of the Weasleys (was; Saving every Sickle) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59276 Hm. I found this post interesting, and an opportunity to make some remarks of my own about the Weasleys, and what I feel their purpose as textual devices might be. As an example, Jodel wrote: >Because you are absolutely right, and I do not think it is accidental. For >all that Harry thinks it is paradise on earth, the Burrow is not the >happiest of >households. (Don't run away with that statement. The Weasleys aren't going >to >make the top ten list of dysfunctional families in childrens' literature >any >time soon, either.) > Hm. My take on this is that Harry feels that it is paradise on earth because for all their flaws (and what family doesn't have them taken as a whole?) the Weasleys love and care about each other. I'm frustrated by a whole set of circumstances than those expressed here about the Weasleys: namely, that Ron, at least, appears to suffer from something common to the modern "Muggle" world which I am just as condemnatory about as some of the writing here about the Weasley family values taken from different perspectives: he shows signs of money addiction and an obsession (and I don't use the word lightly, if you look at some of my past postings). It's true: one of the most common addictive/obsessive behaviors in modern America that isn't talked about or dealt with is an addiction to money and matters financial. It goes far beyond any sort of common-sense budgeting (and I would agree that it doesn't always appear to me that Arthur and Molly are necessarily particularly good at that - but on the other hand they've managed thus far) and sensible pursuit of expanding one's career into the now-debunked myth that "greed is good". Greed is *not* good, and usually it's futile in the long run. But because America is now so lucre-oriented, we even have pundits fretting about "love addiction" (which isn't a true one, but just an excuse for a few people to sell more books and seminars) rather than financial addiction/obsession, which can and does destroy lives and families. I personally think Ron needs a good paddling over some of the stuff he frets about (but then I favor corporal punishment for spoilt brats). Ron is the only Weasley we see fret openly or get weird about money - has anyone else noticed this? I'd like to think the others realize that their parents are doing the best they can, they're really doing okay (they're all managing to make it through Hogwarts, after all) and Charlie and Bill have independent careers which they appear to enjoy and seem to be remarkably well-adjusted human beings. I'm sorry to state this, Jodel, and you are certainly entitled to your opinions, but I don't agree with some of your other assessments about the Weasleys - especially the one about Ginny being tied to Molly's apron strings. I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Ginny was the last child left at home; she's the only girl and probably Molly did girl things with her and even indulged her with more outings together than she'd done with the boys. But she's packed off to school right along with the rest and doesn't seem to be getting an unusual stream of packages or letters bearing motherly admonitions or more visits. I think Ginny's doing just fine, actually. My one thought is that their financial priorities do seem to be a little skewed - the vacation to Egypt hit me wrong, as it did many others, when there were problems buying robes and paying tuition. But it might be that the Weasley parents saw it as important to have everyone together and see Bill - moreover, and we mustn't forget this as the overarching concern, it was a plot device plain and simple for Sirius to see a photograph showing Pettigrew. I also disagree that Molly has misapplied her ambitions to her children. I don't think that's true at all. I think she wants them to grow up to be self-supporting children able to stand on their own two feet and not come back at home and live with Mummy and Daddy forever; and of course she wants her children to be well-behaved and get good grades and be credits to the family - that's a natural parental reaction. Parents *really* don't want rebels without a clue, no matter where they live. :-) For every wild success story that makes 'People' magazine, there are 10,000 failures who wind up back at home with the parents for a while, busted flat broke. It's quite natural for parents to err on the conservative side of things, especially where dreams are bigger than talent or drive. YMMV, naturally. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 02:25:07 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 02:25:07 +0000 Subject: "Purebloods", "Mudbloods" and Muggle-borns Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59277 Greetings, all: I've had another thought over time, and I believe I wrote a post once before that got bounced because my account was overfull or some such thing: This whole issue of mudbloods, purebloods, what have you. I think there's a really important question or two lurking at the bottom of this: 1) What is the exact definition of each? I'd say the odds that there are *any* wizards who have totally pure, wizard-only bloodlines that go back to the dawn of time (or even to the time of Hogwarts' establishment) are vanishingly small. I have a theory that, at some point, if there's only one Muggle ancestor, it's basically considered to "fade back" if every line since then is entirely wizard, or has the same degree of regression. I have no canonical basis for this, but I'm basing the thought on a cutoff degree that was established for the Alaska Native Land Claims Settlement Act - you had to be at least 1/16th Native American (and one of the specified peoples/tribes, I believe, although Cher did a few PSAs for them on the strength of her Cherokee ancestry). Less than that, you didn't get a cut of the pie. Seamus Finnegan says he's "half and half" - implying that his father was pureblood Muggle and his mother pureblood witch. What if that's a rough approximation? 2) Although JKR doesn't get into this in what is still essentially juvenile fiction, what about illegitimate children, or children whose father isn't really who their mother says it is? :-) The WW seems every bit as prone to human temptations as we are; you can't tell me that in all their long history there wasn't someone who strayed one way or the other. What if a child shows up thinking they have pure Muggle parents but they are actually the result of a liaison between their mum and a wizard? Say, even, that she was a single mum and the dad married her and adopted the child as his own? 3) And if we're doing genetic equations like this, what about the spontaneous wizards like Hermione, who evidently owe their powers to the mutation that produced wizards in the first place? How many generations before their offspring count as "purebloods" if they intermarry only with purebloods? Let's say that Hermione does marry Ron, eventually. Their children, the first generation, are not going to be considered purebloods by those who count and care, no matter how brilliant Hermione is. But that's decidedly not Hermione's fault. She is what she is. Let's say their children, we'll give them three for right now, marry - the first boy marries a pureblood witch with a similar background to the Weasleys, the girl marries a Muggle, and the second boy marries another "spontaneous witch" like Hermione with similar strong, brilliant powers but Muggle parents. How do their children "count"? It's really a rather fascinating train of thought once you start playing with it with some Mendelian graphics on paper. :-) *** In sum, I think that *probably* even the Malfoys might have a Muggle ancestor back there in the seventh or eighth generation back, if they looked closely enough. If they don't, I'll bet they're an extreme rarity. Felinia Beauclerc House Ravenclaw _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From kemp at arcom.com.au Wed Jun 4 02:47:45 2003 From: kemp at arcom.com.au (pickle_jimmy) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 02:47:45 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Dead, It'll Never Happen Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59278 Now there's a brave statement. This has been raised 100's of times, but I was just thinking about it again and wanted to add my prediction to the pile. It is easy to parallel HP with stories like Star Wars and Lord of the Rings, because these are classic good Vs evil stories where the evil is some entity (Sauron or Vader) that must be defeated. In Star Wars we have young and inexperienced Luke, who goes on an epic journey to save the Galaxy from Darth Vader. He is under the tutorage of Obi Wan Kenobi. Obi Wan is killed ("strike me down Darth, I will only become more powerful"). Spirit Obi Wan keeps helping Luke fulfill his quest. In Lord of the Rings we have the young and inexperienced Frodo, who goes on an epic journey to save Middle Earth from Sauron. He is under the tutorlage of Gandalf. Gandalf is "killed" ("strike me down Balrog, I will only become more powerful" :-)). Gandalf comes back to help Frodo fulfill his quest. In Harry Potter we have the young and inexperienced Harry, who goes on an epic journey to the WW and must save Earth from Voldemort. He is under the tutorage of Dumbledore. So, will Dumbledore die. NO!!!!!!! (I scream) Surely JK knows that these parallels are already being drawn without using the "death of the mentor" cliche. (this also takes care of the "will Hermione turn out to be Harry's sister" question) Dumbledore will be there until the end (MAGIC DISHWASHER) - others will drop like flies, but from what we have so far, JK is a better author than to make such an "obvious" move. Just my opinion Pickle Jimmy From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 04:00:35 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 04:00:35 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tomboy Lily Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59279 Inge: >This may have been discussed before - if so - Im sorry to bring it up >again but I have long wondered if Lily didn't have any close female >friends at Hogwarts. Hi Inge and all - I'm not really a tomboy and never was in the traditional sense - I wasn't a girly-girl either, more androgynous in my interests (bicycles, tree forts, ice skating, cats, books) if not my looks (first girl to need a bra in the 6th grade). But I have had one best female friend most of my life - other female friends have come and gone or drifted away - and all my other close friends are men. Always have been. In my case, I'm an ENTJ on the Myers-Briggs personality matrix ("the Field Marshal") - and female ENTJs are supposed to have the most characteristics like the classic "alpha male" - female ENTJs accounting for less than 1% of the population. I don't have a lot of the "classic" female responses to things and never have had. I find men on the whole more interesting to be around because their overall conversational style is less inane in a group than that of women (individually, women can be just as great to talk to - but something about a group sinks the collective IQ to banal chatter about makeup and laundry stains). Maybe Lily's the same way - being "Head Girl" suggests that possibility to me. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From dradamsapple at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 04:23:06 2003 From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 04:23:06 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Pensive Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59280 Hey all! Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but I don't tend to lurk in this group that often, never mind post anything. (I hide out in HPFG-OT, POU, and the like.) But, I've got a question that you folks could probably help me with: I'm re-listening to GoF (got a long commute to and from work), and I've just heard the whole 'Harry and the Pensive' section, and it occured to me, that perhaps Dumbledore left the door to the cabinet partially opened hoping that Harry would find the Pensive and 'fall into it'. Somehow, I get the feeling that he(DD) meant for Harry to find out about Crouch Jr., and Bagman and Snape, and for that matter, what happened to the Longbottoms. This obviously fuels Harrys' anger towards Lord Voldie. I know that DD told Harry that he was using the Pensive just before Snape and Mad-Eye and (was it Fudge?) came in, but I think that DD knew that Harry was on his way as well, or at least was hopeful. But I'm still lost at the whole "twinkle in DD's eye" after Harry finishes the third task. (I haven't gotten to that part yet on the cd, this time 'round.) I know that there have been some theories tossed around about DD, and where his loyalties really lie, but I just haven't figured it out yet. If this has been discussed, can anyone cast a Four-point spell on me and send me in the right direction? If not, what do all you experts think? Anna . . .(17 days and counting . . .) From jillily3g at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 04:25:31 2003 From: jillily3g at yahoo.com (jillily3g) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 04:25:31 -0000 Subject: Being a prefect Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59281 Something that occurred to me as I re-read the books is that James was Head Boy in his day, according to Hagrid, but he and Sirius were also said to have been as much trouble as Gred and Forge. So how does one be a prefect in charge of one's best friend, who loves to cause trouble? How will it be for Hermione if she is made a prefect, yet she knows what kind of bending the rules Harry and Ron do? And wasn't "cool" Bill also a Head Boy? For those of you who know, it isn't exactly like being a resident assistant in college, right? So how much latitude for "coolness" is there? Beth From MadameSSnape at aol.com Wed Jun 4 03:14:07 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 23:14:07 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Polyjuice Potions... Dead or alive? Message-ID: <1cc.af282eb.2c0ebdff@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59282 In a message dated 6/3/2003 8:19:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pegruppel at yahoo.com writes: > That brings me to my main point. Was it Moody's death Voldemort was > talking about when he said: "One more murder . . . my faithful > servant at Hogwarts . . ." (GOF, American edition, p.12)? Actually, JKR didn't write another murder in here - for some reason, Scholastic changed the original wording. (Being one who collects both UK & US editions, this jumped out at me.) In the UK edition, it refers to "one more obstacle removed" - but nothing says that that removal is by death. This irks me... Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From distractedone at comcast.net Wed Jun 4 05:05:28 2003 From: distractedone at comcast.net (Merlin) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 01:05:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What HP Character Scares You Most? References: Message-ID: <002401c32a56$ea7a1810$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59283 innermurk said: > Do we know that Fudge convicted Sirius? I thought he wasn't yet > Minister of Magic when that happened. In GOF we find out Bartemius > Crouch (who is the one Sirius said put him in Azkaban without a > trial) was slated to become the next MoM, but then got shunted aside > and Fudge was the one who was elected. This was after the trial of > his son, which happened AFTER Sirius was put in prison. So, I've > always thought we didn't know who the MoM of the time was. > Even so, it was Crouch who put Sirius away, and authorized all those > Unforgivables to be used and etc.... > Not that that excuses Fudge for his actions now, but he was hardly > responsible for what happened to Sirius earlier. No according to Sirius it was Crouch who convicted him with out trial while he was the head of the department of Magical Law Enforcement. Now how about this... When Crouch jr was convicted he was sent to Azkaban along with the Lestranges and an unidentified man. Sirius says that jr made noises for a couple of weeks but then no more. What kind of clues could J.K.R. be throwing at us with this? Since Crouch sr was on the fast track to becoming the Minister of Magic, is it possible that Crouch jr was set up in order to discredit Crouch sr so that Voldemort and the Death Eaters could get a puppet into the Ministers position (Fudge is starting to look that way)? Crouch jr as Moody performs some pretty advanced magic for a person in their late teens early twenties, is it possible that the unidentified man mentioned earlier figuring that Crouch sr would get jr out of Azkaban performed a switching spell on him and was actually the person in the Crouch jr body that Crouch sr rescued from Azkaban? Well these are just a couple thoughts that were floating around my head what does everybody else think? Merlin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kemp at arcom.com.au Wed Jun 4 05:27:21 2003 From: kemp at arcom.com.au (pickle_jimmy) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 05:27:21 -0000 Subject: Intrinsically Good magic, and motives over ends (Fwd from OTC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59284 After reading through this thread, I was reminded of an old chinese fable: (excuse my paraphrasing) ----- An old chinese man woke up one day to find his horse had run away. Due to the importance of the horse in his farming, this was seen as quite a loss. All the man's neighbours came to comfort the man on his mis-fortune. But his reply was "good luck or bad luck, who can tell" A couple of days past and the old man's horse returned with another horse. The new horse was a champion and all the neighbours came to admire it and to congratulate the man on his good-fortune. But his reply was "good luck or bad luck, who can tell" While riding the new horse around the farm, the old man's son fell and terribly damaged his leg. This limited the boy's ability to help on the farm and was seen as quite a loss. All the man's neighbours came to comfort the man on his mis-fortune. But his reply was "good luck or bad luck, who can tell" A year later the country went to war and all the young man in the area were conscripted. Many died, but the old man's son was not required to go to war because of his dis-ability. ---- Good Spells, Bad/Evil Spells who can tell? Even their intended use might turn on them - Voldemort's evil use of harry's blood might turn to harry's good - Harry's good sportsmanship turned to Cedric's death. Did Lily's decision to save Harry lead to Cedric's Death, who can tell? We don't get to live the alternative in which Harry dies. Is Cedric's death a bad thing? who can tell? He may have turned out to be (dare I say) Evil. Pickle Jimmy From dehavensangel at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 05:57:23 2003 From: dehavensangel at hotmail.com (shinesse) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 05:57:23 -0000 Subject: The Death of Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59285 Hi all. I am just your everyday lurker throwing in my opinions. Well here it goes. GKJPO wrote: "I think that with the nature of these books we must expect some of the "too important" people to die. If someone like Dumbledore does die (which I think very likely considering all the references to his age and look), it will be painful to all of us. If JKR keeps knocking off peripheral characters we will not be satisfied with the series. After all, Dobby's death would certainly sadden Harry (do you think the Elf protection on death would be stronger than his mothers?), but not really cause him to rise above." now for me: "Always the innocent are the 1st victims," he said "So it has been for ages past, so it is now." Ronan Ch 15 SS/PS Though this quote is about the unicorn in SS/PS I feel this holds true for the rest of the series. With that being said I feel anyone of the innocent can die. JKR has certainly set us up for the unexpected before. And as stated by s_karmol: "If the death was hard for her to write, that might not mean it's because she liked the character, it might be difficult because of who will be affected by it". It could also mean that the death was rather painful for the victim. As stated by Melanie L Ellis: "but instead "horrible" because she chose to write a nasty, dark, awful torturous death for someone that we may or may not know yet?" Now I say all that to say this. Sure it won't be meatier if a small character but I don't think it would be any less meaningful to Harry or us as the reader. For arguments sake let's say it is Dobby. Just because is a secondary character doesn't mean that Harry won't be affected by his death. It has been shown that Harry is a very compassionate person. He hardly knew Cedric and his death affected him. I think that at this point Harry would feel any death is senseless and would feel that it was somewhat his fault. Making him want to fight Voldie even more to stop things from getting out of hand. To stop him before he had a chance to kill DD, Hermione, Ron or any other important character. ~shinesse~ *Who hopes she quoted everyone right and that it all made sense. Now grabs her books and goes back to lurking.* From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Jun 4 06:06:41 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 02:06:41 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione And Bulgaria Message-ID: <1c9.aa1af27.2c0ee671@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59286 In a message dated 6/4/2003 12:29:29 AM Central Standard Time, lb140900 at yahoo.com writes: > Personal > opinions, now; do you think Hermione would have taken Viktor up on > his offer? If so, why and how long do you think she'd have stayed? > If not, why? Also, if anyone could answer this; is there anything > *touristy* down in Bulgaria? I'm wondering where Viktor would take > Hermione if she got into a sightseeing mood. > > I think she might have took him up initially but I also think that Viktor broke up with her before they boarded the train back to King's Cross. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tahewitt at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 06:14:33 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 23:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Calling the Knight Bus In-Reply-To: <1054691524.4135.9061.m4@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030604061433.19742.qmail@web14204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59287 Phyllis wrote: My theory is that the Ministry of Magic sent the bus. I think the Ministry was monitoring Harry's movements after Sirius Black's escape from Azkaban in an effort to protect Harry from Black. If this theory is accurate, it would explain how the Ministry knew about the Aunt Marge inflation incident (in order to dispatch members of the Accidental Magic Reversal Department to puncture her), and why Fudge was awaiting Harry's arrival at the Leaky Cauldron. ME: I was thinking about this earlier today, and arrived at the same conclusion. Then I took it a bit further: Fudge is one of those 'slippery' charecters. In Gof, we don't know for sure if he's a good guy or not. It may be that he's just a milquetoast, could be that he's secretly supporting Voldemort. If that's true, he may have had an ulterior motive for keeping Harry alive in PoA-he may have knwn that Voldemort would need Harry to rise again. Don't know, that might be a bit far fetched. Tyler __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From dehavensangel at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 06:23:00 2003 From: dehavensangel at hotmail.com (shinesse) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 06:23:00 -0000 Subject: "Life-Debt" Gripe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59288 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jesta Hijinx" wrote: > While at work today, I thought of something I've been meaning to post to > this list for a while: > > I see relatively frequent, almost casual references to "life debts" between > characters. (It's okay - just to save some typing, I know what the concept > means - I tend to leave out lengthy expository trains of thought like that > in e-mail when I assume everyone has the same knowledge base I do - so > please, nobody post a long discussion of the meaning of "life debt" and the > cultures in which it crops up. ;-)) > > Yet nowhere does the phrase actually appear in canon that I know of. Anyone > got a cite they care to share? > > I ask because while a nice idea, I think that it's a tacit assumption that > might not really hold in the WW on the part of fandom that any of these > characters owe or feel they owe a life debt to another. Just because it's > common among world cultures and in literature (the most recent media > reference *I* can recall is Qui-Gon Jinn speaking to Boss Nass about Jar-Jar > Binks in "Phantom Menace") doesn't mean that's how JKR is writing in the > Potterverse. > > Any thoughts? > > Felinia Beauclerc > now me: I've always gone by the quote from DD to Harry at the end of PoA. "You have sent Voldermort a deputy who is in your debt...When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them..and I'm much mistaken if Voldermort wants his servant in the debt of Harry Potter." Ch 22. PoA I don't remember the entire cemetary scene and I doubt that wormtail would help Harry so obviously with all the DE around. I'm sure that this debt will come into play in OoP. ~shinesse~ From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 06:33:04 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 06:33:04 -0000 Subject: Dursley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59289 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "optionspink" wrote: > If the Dursley's dislike the Potter's as much as it seems why did > they take Harry in? Why not just send him to an orphanage as > suggested by Aunt Marge in PoA? ...edited... > > Pinks bboy_mn: An orphanage? ...Shocking!... What would the neighbors think? I think it's just that easy, the Dursley's wouldn't have wanted word to get around that, as rich and successful as Mr. Dursley claims to be, they turned away a relative in need. Especially, when that relative was a helpless baby. Doesn't show very strong family values, and that tends to discredit your values in general. Nope... what the neighbors think is way to important. Just a thought. bboy_mn From distractedone at comcast.net Wed Jun 4 06:07:28 2003 From: distractedone at comcast.net (Merlin) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 02:07:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Death of Book 5 References: Message-ID: <017a01c32a5f$93da1ab0$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59290 ANTHILL wrote: > I agree, JK would not dare to knock off anyone too important, like Hermione > or Dumbledore, but Dobby is not that important. The book can continue without > him. It can't function without Harry's best friends. J.K.R. has already stated that the character will not be one of the three main characters of Harry Ron or Hermione, but she did say that the person has been around since the first book and that they were a fan of Harry's. Merlin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gishdaydream at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 06:17:28 2003 From: gishdaydream at hotmail.com (gishstar1) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 06:17:28 -0000 Subject: The Death of Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59291 > OK...I have read everyone's thoughts on this matter and I have to > tell you I have really thought about this (an obsession for about a > year with me and my friends)and here's what I think. > --edit-- > If the death was hard for her to write, that might not mean it's > because she liked the character, it might be difficult because > of who will be afected by it, i.e. Harry, Hermione, Ron. > --edit-- > I don't think it's going to be Hagrid. > --edit-- > It's not going to be Dumbledore either... > --edit-- > Hermione and Ron won't be victims either,... > So, here's my prediction: > Percy and Karkaroff. > Karkaroff we will hear about...something that happened over the > summer. This will be the death that truely shows that Vold. is > back and anyone who runs will be destroyed...including his DE. > > Percy's going to be the difficult death. It will be difficult > because of how it affects the Weasleys...Harry's "adopted" > family. If you think about it Percy's obsession with MoM and work > was clearly stated in book 4. At the end of book 4 you see Fudge > refusing to believe that Vold is back...which means that the MoM > will not be a part of Dumbledore's gang. That will put Percy in > quite a prediciment...should he side with work or with his family. > I think it's that indecision that will kill Percy. > > And think about how Ron and the Weasly's will be effected by > that..and in turn how Harry will be effected by that. I really > think that Book 5 and the deaths within will be the leadup to > the "war" that is brewing for 6 and 7. > > Thanks for listening. Steph *peeks out of dark hole* I am no longer lurking... *stretches out in sun light* Ok then... Everyone has been putting in their 2 cents, and now it feels right to share what I have a little knowledge of... I think Cornelius Fudge will be killed, possibly Arthur Weasley, and then Percy. But not necessarily Arthur and Percy, it turns into an 'either or' situation. Here's why: Mr. Malfoy (Lucius, that is) has a lot of hold over the Wizarding Community, and he will be put in charge of the MoM mostly because of his cash, and that a lot of people fear him (and let's not forget where his name possibly comes from *see below). Arthur Weasley will be doing some important under cover work for Dumbledore's gang. In order to stop all that he kills Arthur... (oh yeah, and Fudge) now hear me out. Let's look at the name of this character that JKR has put into her world... Lucius: Saint Pope Lucius I, became Pope when the exiled Saint Cornelius died... moving on... -I think Fudge will die / be killed and Lucius will be put in charge of MoM. Him being put in charge will probably be where the 'Percy death-in-question' will come into play. -And on Arthur... we like him... JKR wants us to like him (She did the same thing with Cedric) and then he dies at the hands of evil. Percy's obsession with the MoM... good call. I think his opinion will be clouded by what is right, and what is written in the rule book. He's very adhesive to rules, and following policy. He could die because of something related to that. BUT he could also turn against his family, and that's 'like' dying... isn't it? Anyone remember the tale of Perceval and the Holy Grail?? However, I am really leery about that silver hand, and I worry about Lupin. Considering that silver does kill a werewolf... *wince* ooohh that one could end up messy. *shudders* Well, that's it for me for now. It's late, ta for now! \/\Ari/\/ From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 09:06:30 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 09:06:30 -0000 Subject: Molly as a parent... (Re: Saving every Sickle) In-Reply-To: <914696339.20030603160422@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59292 She does take into account all her children's personal needs and she _does_ know her children, despite of what Ron keeps saying. Harry's learned to know Ron's special personality trait, how he critices everything he has, his family and friends - ultimately, himself. Mostly those he loves. Like with Scabbers or Pig. Molly knows this full well... Like well - if Ron _really_ wanted those laces off, he'd ask nicely or take them off himself. Surely a 14-year old can be expected to do that much himself, and not expect Mom to fix everything for him no matter what he does? How's he ever going to learn manage himself if Mom fixes everything for him?? And then there's that first-year-sandwich. I don't think Molly forgot what sort Ron doesn't like... "Ron's also first year" cleaning up Ron's nose - showing she does care and pay attention to Ron. Ron does not have any friends - except Harry and Hermione, and none as he was getting onto the train Ron did make friends with Harry - partly because of sharing Harry's candy... Maybe Molly put on food Ron doesn't like and hope Ron would make a friend by changing/sharing his food with someone? "Wrong" sort sandwich to be exactly what puts Ron into taking action... And Maroon - that Ron seemingly doesn't like - why doesn't Ron use a spell to change the colour if he dislikes it so much? Ron's lazy and that won't do - so Molly puts him with things he dislikes so he might actually do something - and competes with her little critic in the art of constructive criticism... Ron's learned how to handle emotions - his own and others. And Twins business... she's coaching them! They don't need her support and praise, but opposition so that they'll learn how to deal with all the difficulties and hardness included in basing one's own store. So far, all her adult children are in line of work - straight from school - that they're content with. "Percy loves rules" as Ron puts it - Molly knows that, and for someone who loves rules and to please the boss, Ministry job suits better than well. And, in this line of duty, Percy's actually beginning to form his own opinions... that the others already do. -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 09:20:09 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 09:20:09 -0000 Subject: Being a prefect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59293 Beth: > Something that occurred to me as I re-read the books is that James > was Head Boy in his day, according to Hagrid, but he and Sirius were > also said to have been as much trouble as Gred and Forge. So how > does one be a prefect in charge of one's best friend, who loves to > cause trouble? Well, James _did_ save Snape's life. Harry, Hermione & Ron - despite of their rule-breaking, they usually do it for the purpose of rules: security. They've saved lives and the school... Fourth year, Harry breaks school rules: first to warn Cedric - possibly saving his life, then only to meet the magical contract he had been forced into, rules he didn't even need to break if he HAD been prefect then. So - he also defies Sirius' concerned and bit erratic: Stay away from Krum the childish way - maybe it'd been better if he'd just have told Sirius that he'd pick his own friends or something, but well.. And in the end Harry shows what his true nature is, in defying Voldemort. -- Finwitch From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Wed Jun 4 09:44:20 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 09:44:20 -0000 Subject: MAGIC DISWASHER, Dumbledore Dead, Pensieve, Head Boys and duty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59294 Pickle Jimmy wrote: > Dumbledore will be there until the end (MAGIC DISHWASHER) - others > will drop like flies, but from what we have so far, JK is a better > author than to make such an "obvious" move. > > Just my opinion > > Pickle Jimmy Err... I'm afraid, Pickle Jimmy, that you're putting ideas into MAGIC DISHWASHER that simply are not there. For the record, and to prevent people from missinterpreting MD even more, MD *does not* say that Dumbledore will live until the end of the books. It does not say he will not, either. Because MD does not try to predict the future plots of the books, just to explain what has been going on behind the scenes so far. To me and to many others it is obvious that Harry is not the centre of his universe, there are things, plans, plots, etc that don't concern him directly, and many that even when they do, he knows nothing about. MD is an attempt to explain what those things are. Predicting characters's deaths is outside the objectives and intentions of MD. Anna "dradamsapple" wrote: > I'm re-listening to GoF (got a long commute to and from work), and > I've just heard the whole 'Harry and the Pensive' section, and it > occured to me, that perhaps Dumbledore left the door to the cabinet > partially opened hoping that Harry would find the Pensive and 'fall > into it'. Somehow, I get the feeling that he (DD) meant for Harry to > find out about Crouch Jr., and Bagman and Snape, and for that matter, > what happened to the Longbottoms. This obviously fuels Harrys' anger > towards Lord Voldie. I know that DD told Harry that he was using the > Pensive just before Snape and Mad-Eye and (was it Fudge?) came in, > but I think that DD knew that Harry was on his way as well, or at > least was hopeful. > > But I'm still lost at the whole "twinkle in DD's eye" after Harry > finishes the third task. (I haven't gotten to that part yet on the > cd, this time 'round.) I know that there have been some theories > tossed around about DD, and where his loyalties really lie, but I > just haven't figured it out yet. > > Anna Hi, Anna, long time no see! First, if you like that sort of theories where Dumbledore is arranging matters to give Harry especifically an education against Voldemort, can I recommend you MAGIC DISHWASHER? It also includes an explanaition on the gleam of triumph of Dumbledore's eye, so you get two for one! Anyway, back to the pensieve. As much as I would like to credit Dumbledore for arranging it so Harry would get all that information, it doesn't particularly wash, I'm afraid, as you have described it. Although Dumbledore seems to know what has been going on in the school, I don't think it is feasible to imagine that he could know straight away after Harry was pained by the scar that he would be dropping for a visit. He tells Harry that he knows about previous occasions through Sirius, so it's second hand knowledge. And Harry doesn't tell anyone he was going to visit Dumbledore, so unless we assume omniscient powers of precognition to Dumbledore, there is no way he can know. Then, we have the length of the meeting. How long have they been there? if it is more than 10 or 15 minutes, then Harry's pain and subsequent decision of visiting Dumbledore came *after* the start of the meeting, when Dumbledore has already put the pensieve in the cupboard. Furthermore, the idea of "just in case" rubs me wrong. Harry doesn't go to that office all that much - why would he have to that particular day? ok, so maybe it's been half open all year, just in case, but that's a little too contrived for my tastes. However, I have a better idea. There is one moment when Dumbledore knows Harry is outside the door - when Moody mentions it. At that point, Dumbledore, who is a wizard after all, realising Harry is going to stay unattended in his office for a while, might have accio'ed the cupboard door ever so slightly so he could indeed see all those recolections about the trials. Dumbledore has ample time to perform that or a similar spell, really, and at that point it is a spur of the moment decission to further Harry's knowledge, which is always a good thing. Beth wrote: > Something that occurred to me as I re-read the books is that James > was Head Boy in his day, according to Hagrid, but he and Sirius were > also said to have been as much trouble as Gred and Forge. So how > does one be a prefect in charge of one's best friend, who loves to > cause trouble? How will it be for Hermione if she is made a prefect, > yet she knows what kind of bending the rules Harry and Ron do? And > wasn't "cool" Bill also a Head Boy? For those of you who know, it > isn't exactly like being a resident assistant in college, right? So > how much latitude for "coolness" is there? > > Beth I think that James became much more "formal" in the last year of Hogwarts, when he was made Head boy. But that's sidestepping the question, becasue I think we can assume he was also prefect, which would've been at the time of the roaming of the marauders (years 5 and 6). We have, however, a nice piece of canon to go with this matter: Sirius tells Peter that any of them would've died before being traitors, which I feel is a good description of how the marauders felt. So James would've kept the antics of Sirius to himself, or just treated them as the twins antics are treated: an entertainement that is useless to try and stop. Beyond that, I think that James was Head Boy due to outstanding academic achivements, not because he was particularly saintly. To this day, I'm not sure what a Head Boy is suposed to do, but maybe someone that's admired and sets a good example in some way is enough. Interestingly, the three examples you have mentioned (Percy, Bill and James) are very different, except for the fact of all having very good grades, so that seems to be the main focus. Their regard of disregard for the rules is not as important as being someone of dependable abilities. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 10:08:43 2003 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 10:08:43 -0000 Subject: Tomboy Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59295 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Grey Wolf" wrote: > Inge (me) wrote: This may have been discussed before - if so - Im sorry to bring it up again but I have long wondered if Lily didn't have any close female friends at Hogwarts. We know of James' close friends and what happened to them later on - but there has been no mention of any close friends of Lily's. Isn't that a bit odd? Grey Wolf replied: We know nothing of Lily, full stop. Inge (me): We know very little of James either but have nevertheless been introduced to 3 of his friends. Grey Wolf continues: If Lily had friends that didn't get killed by DEs and that could've taken an interest in Harry, they're still impotent to do something about it. Without an official position (like being Godmothers or something), they wouldn't have got past Dumbledore's/MoM's defenses of the boy. He is at the Dursleys for his protection, after all. I do seem to remember that harry notices witches and wizards meeting him when he's outside the house (one being Daedalus Diggle). Maybe some of the others are Lily's old school friends. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf Inge (me) again: Actually no - that doesn't help since my mainpoint was my wondering as to why none of these if-existing close friends of Lily's never bothered to let Harry know that they're out there and thinking of him. They may not have been able to contact him at the Dursley's - but Harry has been at Hogwarts 4 years now and any old bosom friend of Lily's could easily have sent him a note or come to see him there. If Lily had real close friends I'd expect them to do just that. Close female friends are like soul-sisters and if one of them dies (in this case being murdered) and leaves a baby behind the natural thing would be for her friend to stay in close contact with the child. As stated, this may not have been possible while Harry was not yet at Hogwarts, but he is NOW and still noone has cared enough to let him know that they knew and loved his mother or let him know that they're out there for him. That's what I find a bit odd. Inge From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Wed Jun 4 10:11:56 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 10:11:56 -0000 Subject: Families: Purebloods and Half-Non Humans In-Reply-To: <1c6.aa1f36f.2c0ed259@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59296 Cassie wrote: > What I am wondering is...if a person is half > wizard/half non human...are they considered fullbloods because they > have magical blood? And if not...how would those big on the whole > pureblood thing feel? IMO, those very keen on pureblood - like the Malfoys - will probably find half-breeds with any non-wizards discusting (although they might make exception with "interesting" half-breeds like half-Veelas). After all, to the likes of Malfoy, there is no difference between muggles and giants - both are basically subhuman in his eyes (IIRC - no canon handy - someone proposed muggles as a beasts for FB book). Certainly Draco doesn't as much fear Hagrid because of his ascendency as think it disgusting. When push comes to shove, however, the whole pureblood concept is used as a form of racism, and racism doesn't need logic behind it. If they want to feel superior, they'll find reason to. > And can two non-humans produce human children? (the same way two > muggles can produce a witch/wizard). > > ~Cassie~ You mean, two giants produce a human? I doubt it. Muggles and wizards are the same species, like blonde and black haired people are the same species - magic ability is just a trait. But even if giants and humans and veelas are genetically compatible, that doesn't mean (in Potterverse) that they're the same species. Two giants will produce a giant. Felinia Beauclerc wrote, in a similar subject: > This whole issue of mudbloods, purebloods, what have you. > > 1) What is the exact definition of each? Pureblood: Wizards back as far as the memory can tell. Even if some records have to be conviniently rewritten. Just like the noble families, there is always a way of finding common people 10 generations back, but enough money would hide that. Mudblood: Muggle parents. Mixblood: somewhere in the middle All of it is a little on the ridiculous side, though, as the books suggest, and the only reason is still around because some wizards feel the need to feel superior by using their ancestry to set a difference. > I'd say the odds that there are *any* wizards who have totally pure, > wizard-only bloodlines that go back to the dawn of time (or even to > the time of Hogwarts' establishment) are vanishingly small. Not necesarily. Wizards and muggles have kept apart, and thus there is good chances that certain family lines have interbreeded for the last 20 generations. Yes, it is small, but not that small. After all, remember that wizards live twice as long as muggles, and thus their generations are much longer - only 20 generations since Hogwarts founding. > I have a theory that, at some point, if there's only one Muggle > ancestor, it's basically considered to "fade back" if every line > since then is entirely wizard, or has the same degree of regression. While it has been suggested before (canon: Hufflepuff's boy with "witches and wizards both sides for ten generations", CoS), I think this is overthinking the issue. Nothing in the books indicates the wizards have an established rule for turning from mixblood into pureblood. As long as you can go back a while and keep finding wizards, that's enough. As with noble families, it is more important that people believe you're pureblood than being really pureblood. If your family is traditionally pure, no-one will check. > 2) what about illegitimate children, or children whose father isn't > really who their mother says it is? What if a > child shows up thinking they have pure Muggle parents but they are > actually the result of a liaison between their mum and a wizard? > Say, even, that she was a single mum and the dad married her and > adopted the child as his own? Since pureblood is all about status, I would say that illegitimate children, even if coming from two pureblood families families, wouldn't be well received. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be Wed Jun 4 09:44:13 2003 From: vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be (vicky_gwosdz) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 09:44:13 -0000 Subject: Dursley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59297 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > bboy_mn: > > An orphanage? ...Shocking!... What would the neighbors think? > > I think it's just that easy, the Dursley's wouldn't have wanted word > to get around that, as rich and successful as Mr. Dursley claims to > be, they turned away a relative in need. Especially, when that > relative was a helpless baby. Doesn't show very strong family values, > and that tends to discredit your values in general. > > Nope... what the neighbors think is way to important. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn ME: I always thought that DD had something to do with it. Especially after Harry gets admitted to Hogwarts, I always assumed that there was a special arrangement between DD and the Dursleys in order for them to take care of Harry. I seem to recall (don't have the books with me, so sorry if I am mistaken) that in PS, Vernon calls DD "old" (when Hagrid visits to give Harry his letter). So apparently he must know something about DD. My guess is that the Dursleys don't have much of a choice, and probably in some of the next books we will find out the exact reason why the Dursleys keep taking "care" of Harry. My 2 cts, Vicky From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 11:00:57 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 11:00:57 -0000 Subject: Hermione And Bulgaria In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59298 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Louis Badalament" wrote: > > If not, why? Also, if anyone could answer this; is there anything > *touristy* down in Bulgaria? I'm wondering where Viktor would take > Hermione if she got into a sightseeing mood. > > Great To Be Here, > > Louis Badalament Viktor could take Hermione to "the Golden Shore", Bulgaria's famed Black Sea beaches. Haggridd From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 10:44:18 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 10:44:18 -0000 Subject: Polyjuice Potions... Dead or alive? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59299 Linda: > Dumblefore points out that > Crouch Jr has been pulling out Moody's hair all year. I don't think > the time contraints are quite as stringent as an organ transplant. > After all, Hermione got her hair at the dueling club. But maybe it > has something to do with the degradation of what muggles call DNA or > something along the same lines? Moody had, in course of his life, lost his leg, his eye and gained quite a lot of scars. These options have nothing to do with DNA - but it _does_ transform with Polyjuice Potion. Injuries do - magically - go along with the hair, as fake-Moody shows. Knowledge and skill do not - Crouch Jr. had to ask all these things from Moody, learn to operate wooden leg etc. I presume that *death* would also transform. If you take dead person's hair and use it in Polyjuice potion, you'll be just as dead as the donor, with a corpse having no difference. Don't know - did Mrs Crouch's disease heal due to the potion, because her son didn't have it? So she certainly would keep taking it to the end. And then, she died in Barty's body, her body didn't work out the Potion, so she _remained_ in that body... (as Sirius witnessed) -- Finwitch From catherinemck at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 11:10:08 2003 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 11:10:08 -0000 Subject: Tomboy Lily: Lily's friends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59300 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Grey Wolf" > wrote: > > Inge (me) wrote: > This may have been discussed before - if so - Im sorry to bring it up > again but I have long wondered if Lily didn't have any close female > friends at Hogwarts. > We know of James' close friends and what happened to them later on - > but there has been no mention of any close friends of Lily's. Isn't > that a bit odd? > Grey Wolf continues: > If Lily had friends that didn't get killed by DEs and that could've > taken an interest in Harry, they're still impotent to do something > about it. Without an official position (like being Godmothers or > something), they wouldn't have got past Dumbledore's/MoM's defenses > of the boy. He is at the Dursleys for his protection, after all. I do > seem to remember that harry notices witches and wizards meeting him > when he's outside the house (one being Daedalus Diggle). Maybe some > of the others are Lily's old school friends. > Hope that helps, > Grey Wolf > > Inge (me) again: > Actually no - that doesn't help since my mainpoint was my wondering > as to why none of these if-existing close friends of Lily's never > bothered to let Harry know that they're out there and thinking of him. > They may not have been able to contact him at the Dursley's - but > Harry has been at Hogwarts 4 years now and any old bosom friend of > Lily's could easily have sent him a note or come to see him there. > If Lily had real close friends I'd expect them to do just that. > Close female friends are like soul-sisters and if one of them dies > (in this case being murdered) and leaves a baby behind the natural > thing would be for her friend to stay in close contact with the child. > As stated, this may not have been possible while Harry was not yet at > Hogwarts, but he is NOW and still noone has cared enough to let him > know that they knew and loved his mother or let him know that they're > out there for him. > That's what I find a bit odd. > Inge Me: Following Grey Wolf?s analysis of why they don?t contact Harry chez Dursley, there?s a range of possible explanations for the non-contact with Harry of Lily?s female friends once he?s at Hogwarts: 1)she didn?t have any sufficiently intimate female friends for them to be interested in her child after she?d been dead 11 years 2)she did have very close female friends, but, being like her involved in the war against Voldemort, they?re now dead/incapacitated/wrongly accused and in Azkaban/rightly accused and in Azkaban or in hiding 3)she had female friends who perhaps found the idea of contact with Harry too painful a reminder of his mother or thought it would simply confuse him/upset him 4)she had female friends who would have wished get in touch with Harry, but Dumbledore has asked them not to. Perhaps he fears they might let slip information he isn?t ready to know/be made vulnerable through their contact with the boy/be potential spies Either of the latter categories might be a female correspondence to Lupin, who clearly cares about Harry, but (werewolf issues aside) does not contact him before coming to Hogwarts himself. Personally I go for items 2 and 4. Of course, it?s always possible that Lily?s friends were all/some of Florence X, Narcissa Y, Mrs Longbottom and Mrs Lestrange! That would be item 2. Hermione does talk to girls other than Ginny, Lavender and Parvati; she thinks Hufflepuff nose-girl Eloise Midgen is really nice. Hi Felinia, ENTJ, as a fully-committed INTJ, nice to meet you! Finally, re. friends in general, what do we mean by ?close?? I have strong female friendships of long standing, but would never call them ?soul-sisters?. I?m closest to my real sisters, but would not call them friends, it?s a wholly different relationship, even though many of our day-to-day interactions are things friends would do. Different people have friendships in different ways ? think of Jo and Meg March in Armstrong?s Little Women film (forget if the incident is in the book), when close as she is to Jo, Meg has not told her by letter that she is pregnant, it isn?t strange, it?s just them. Catherine McK From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 11:29:07 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 04:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Purpose of the Weasleys (was; Saving every Sickle) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030604112907.48125.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59301 --- Jesta wrote: > My one thought is that their financial > priorities do seem to be a little > skewed - the vacation to Egypt hit me wrong, as > it did many others, when > there were problems buying robes and paying > tuition. But it might be that > the Weasley parents saw it as important to have > everyone together and see > Bill - moreover, and we mustn't forget this as > the overarching concern, it > was a plot device plain and simple for Sirius > to see a photograph showing > Pettigrew. Lynn: It's funny, I didn't think it strange that the Weasleys would take the kids to Egypt. I grew up in much the same circumstance, food on the table, second-hand everything. The big difference is we didn't have pocket money, we had to save any money we received from Christmas, birthdays or the paper route if we wanted any pocket money. Yes, I remember those times I wished I had something new but, what I remember most was the trips we used to take, going to camp in the summer, etc. It is hard when a child goes through it but I think in the long run, the most vivid memories will be the family times together and the bonding that could take place during those times. Besides, even when kids get something new, there's always someone out there who will point out that it's the wrong brand or bought from the wrong store, etc. There's always someone who has something better. Ron sees what Harry has now at school but apparently has forgotten that Harry grew up with even less than Ron has had. My big problem with the Weasleys was how they treated Percy when he became a prefect. New robes and an owl? For a family in their financial position, that seems a bit excessive particularly when there are other important things that should be considered. Ron should have had a new wand rather than Charlie's old one given the importance of a person's wand. I understand Molly's desire to reward her child for living up to expectations but it appears to have been at the expense of the other kids. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From lupinesque at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 11:44:38 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 11:44:38 -0000 Subject: Intrinsically Good magic, and motives over ends (Fwd from OTC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59302 Innermurk wrote: > In light of how intricately every choice we make interacts with > everyone else, I don't think you can say that one choice was good or > bad because down the line it affected so and so this way, or so and > so that way. It has to be more of an immediate thing IMO. > It has to be a *direct* result of *that particular choice* and *that > choice only* or else there is no way to judge it fairly. Judge it in what way? To me it depends whether we are judging the morality of the actor's choice, or the relative goodness/badness of the action taken. They are not the same thing. You are talking about the choice, which I agree can only be judged in the way you say. But I was specifically distinguishing between judging the choice and judging the results. > > Innermurk concluded earlier: > > > So, I don't believe you can judge that her choice was good or bad > > on the fact of Cedric's death. > > > And it *was not* Harry's fault that Cedric died. I agree on both counts. > I innermurk conclude now: > *My* whole point was that Cedric's death was *not* a consequence of > Lily's sacrifice. There were too many other choices and people and > things involved to trace it back to that. > The only way you can make it a consequence of Lily's choice is to > make it Harry's fault that Cedric died. Since you concede that point, > it is not a consequence. There, I can't agree. "Fault" has a moral valence. It was not Harry's fault that Cedric died, though he feels as if it was--which is understandable; survivor guilt is a heavy burden even if one *didn't* do anything instrumental to bring the person into danger, the way Harry inadvertently did when he insisted they take the Cup together. It was not Lily's fault that Cedric died. It was only Voldemort's fault, and Wormtail's. (Some would say only Wormtail's, but I blame the person who ordered the hit as well as the hit man, especially if the person who ordered it has been in the habit of torturing the hit man if he balks.) What Lily did was good because it was done out of noble motives, and because all of the results that she could reasonably foresee were good (as far as we know). But "consequence" does not have a moral valence, and IMO, Cedric's death *was* a consequence of Lily's having saved Harry, however intricate the path leading from one event to the other. Jo got me right: my point was not to assign blame, but to point out that in judging the morality of an action, looking only at its results is unilluminating. We have to consider motives, and we also (as Innermurk points out) have to weigh the more direct results more heavily. This may sound obvious--Innermurk, you and I are obviously on the same page, so to us it is--but it isn't obvious to everyone. I have certainly heard people try to separate the world of events into good and bad, as if the interweaving of events were not so complex that no event can be said to have *only* good, or *only* bad, outcomes. Now, to turn to the wizarding world. We don't agonize too much over the distant, unforeseeable ends of our actions, because we don't know them. Hitler, I understand, was a sickly child, but the doctors, not knowing what he would grow up to do, did not have to face the question of whether to save him or let him die. But in the wizarding world, at least according to Trelawney, people *can* know what will happen. This changes moral choices vastly. Or does it? Dumbledore says it doesn't. He stands up for the Kantian view, one might say: save Pettigrew because it's the right thing to do, and let the results fall where they may. One thing's sure, and that is that the intertwining is so complex that Now, that doesn't mean Dumbledore proclaims that means must always be considered over ends. If the devastating results of Peter's survival had been more immediate--if Voldemort had been standing right outside the Shrieking Shack, waiting to see if his servant would be spared, and Harry knew he would be--or even if Harry had foreseen that Peter would escape--then Harry's moral choice would have been very different. And even Dumbledore might have said then that Lupin and Black should have killed him, and Harry should have allowed it. Amy Z -------------------------- The place to be after OoP! Nimbus-2003 www.hp2003.org From lupinesque at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 11:48:48 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 11:48:48 -0000 Subject: argh was Re: Intrinsically Good magic, and motives over ends (Fwd from OTC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59303 I wrote, incompletely, > Or does it? Dumbledore says it doesn't. He stands up for the > Kantian view, one might say: save Pettigrew because it's the right > thing to do, and let the results fall where they may. One thing's > sure, and that is that the intertwining is so complex that even if we are Seers, we can never know all the results of our actions. Amy Z posting half-finished remarks since 1998 and btw, Pickle Jimmy, the Chinese tale you told is one of my favorits--no surprise there -------------------------- The place to be after OoP! Nimbus-2003 www.hp2003.org From shokoono at gmx.de Mon Jun 2 19:54:23 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 21:54:23 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Speaking of Wormtail and his silver hand ... References: Message-ID: <001f01c32a9a$ac647220$0900a8c0@tubs.de.rz.tubs.de> No: HPFGUIDX 59304 Janet wrote: I wonder what will happen the next time he tries to transform. Will he have a silver rat's paw? Or will the appendage interfere with his transformation? It will certainly make him easier to notice Yes, I think so... I think one day they will have to catch him to help Sirius... I hopeHarry will be able to live stay at his for summer holidays thogh I do not think that this will happen soon... What I think is more interesting is that this silver hand replaces the one with only four fingers. So what about Voldemorts powers and the possibilty of him being more vulnerable.... Yours Finchen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pegruppel at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 13:30:16 2003 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (pegruppel) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 13:30:16 -0000 Subject: Polyjuice Potions... Dead or alive? In-Reply-To: <1cc.af282eb.2c0ebdff@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59305 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/3/2003 8:19:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > pegruppel at y... writes: > > > That brings me to my main point. Was it Moody's death Voldemort was > > talking about when he said: "One more murder . . . my faithful > > servant at Hogwarts . . ." (GOF, American edition, p.12)? > Sherrie wrote: > Actually, JKR didn't write another murder in here - for some reason, > Scholastic changed the original wording. (Being one who collects both UK & US > editions, this jumped out at me.) In the UK edition, it refers to "one more obstacle > removed" - but nothing says that that removal is by death. > > This irks me... > > Well, that irks me, too! I thought that either the intent of the plan was to kill Moody, not imprison him. That would, actually, have made for more interesting possibilities. Geez. It just proves my prejudice that copyeditors are some of the most dangerous people in the world. Cheers! Peg > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shokoono at gmx.de Wed Jun 4 13:37:31 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 15:37:31 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Spiders References: Message-ID: <005401c32aa0$4884c2e0$0900a8c0@tubs.de.rz.tubs.de> No: HPFGUIDX 59306 Becky wrote: Hagrid seemed very attatched to our little baby Harry. Is it possible that he asked Aragog to have some spiders watching over Harry at the Dursley's house, and reporting back to him? Harry comments on the spiders in the cupboard with him in the very beginings of the first book (PS/SS). Spiders would seem to make great spies... small, rather normal to see around. I don't think so. Aragog is an acrumatula. That a very big spider and even its eggs are as huge as balls. You cannot tame it so it would be too dangerous to send it to the Dursleys to have an eye on Harry (Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them). Yous Finchen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From persephone_kore at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 14:33:50 2003 From: persephone_kore at yahoo.com (persephone_kore) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 14:33:50 -0000 Subject: "Life-Debt" Gripe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59307 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jesta Hijinx" > wrote: > > > > I see relatively frequent, almost casual references to "life > > debts" between characters. > > > > Yet nowhere does the phrase actually appear in canon that I know > > of. Anyone got a cite they care to share? > now [Shinesse] > I've always gone by the quote from DD to Harry at the end of PoA. > "You have sent Voldermort a deputy who is in your debt...When one > wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond > between them..and I'm much mistaken if Voldermort wants his servant > in the debt of Harry Potter." Ch 22. PoA and now me (PK): To this I would also add... well, a proper citation if I were actually home, but I *think* that such a thing was also mentioned with regard to Snape's feeling obligated to Harry on account of James's having saved *his* life. It may be, however, that in that context it wasn't specified as a (presumably magical) bond, allowing the obligation to be attributed solely or primarily to Snape's personal code. PK From ivanova at idcnet.com Wed Jun 4 15:11:28 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 10:11:28 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Death of Book 5 References: Message-ID: <002201c32aab$937ddf60$30ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 59308 > > now for shinesse: > "Always the innocent are the 1st victims," he said "So it has been > for ages past, so it is now." Ronan Ch 15 SS/PS > > Though this quote is about the unicorn in SS/PS I feel this holds > true for the rest of the series. With that being said I feel anyone > of the innocent can die. JKR has certainly set us up for the > unexpected before. > I agree with you, Ronan's quote did not concern just the unicorn. But I think we've already seen this quote come to fruition. Frank Bryce, the Muggles tortured at the QWC, Bertha Jorkins and, most notably, Cedric. They were all innocents, and they were all the first victims of Voldemort's second coming. I also don't think we've seen the last of anything having to do with that unicorn scene in the forest, either. Or the centaurs themselves, for that matter. One thing that haunts me about that scene is when the centaur that's with Harry (name escapes me right now, no access to book) talks about what happens to those who drinks unicorn's blood. I have the scary thought that this will come back to haunt us in a dreadful, terrible way. The image that came to my mind is Harry, lying at death's door, unconscious. One of his friends (Ron, for the sake of this, but not necessarily him), is desperate to save him, and knows that only drinking the blood of a unicorn will save Harry. So he goes out and slays a unicorn and brings the blood back for Harry to drink. Harry is unconscious and therefore has no idea he's drinking it. I can almost see something like this happening, and have wondered if Harry would be cursed in this case, since it wouldn't have been his fault he'd drunk it. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From ecprincess78 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 13:59:34 2003 From: ecprincess78 at yahoo.com (Leah Jamison) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 13:59:34 -0000 Subject: The Purpose of the Weasleys (was; Saving every Sickle) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59309 Jesta mentioned: Ron is the only Weasley we see fret openly or get weird about money - has anyone else noticed this? Leah (me ) replies: I don't think we can really know how much the other Weasleys complain about their situation. I think we get an especially close look at Ron because of his relationship with Harry. If Ginny were part of the trio (yes, I know, then it would be a quartet ;-D) we may hear that she thinks: "everything I have [is] rubbish" (Ron GoF). We also know that she confided to Diary!Tom about the state of her secondhand things. I don't believe that Ron is any whinier than the others, but, as readers, we just have a more personal relationship with Ron, so we hear more of his private misgivings. Leah (who is on pins and needles for another 17 days) From acukier at uol.com.br Wed Jun 4 15:11:38 2003 From: acukier at uol.com.br (alexcukier) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 15:11:38 -0000 Subject: The Death of Book 5 In-Reply-To: <017a01c32a5f$93da1ab0$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59310 > Merlin wrote: > J.K.R. has already stated that the character will not be one of the three main characters of Harry Ron or Hermione, but she did say that the person has been around since the first book and that they were a fan of Harry's. Now me, Alex Cukier: I totally agree with a theory spread hear before, about Evil! McGonagall. And I think that SHE is the Servant of Voldemort at Hogwarts - no canon, but at the beginning of the series, at Dursley's door, she doesn't seem to be so close to dumbledore and a little FRIGHTENED about Voldemort's fall rumors... Maybe SHE IS THE ONE WHO'S GOING TO DIE. Maybe she is in charge of Hogwarts, uncovered and when she showns that she is one of V's supporters, she is going to be killed. About the Huge Fan Death, she is a Quidditch fan, and besides hating Harry, she loves the way he plays the game. Alex Cukier, the brazilian huge fan From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 15:38:29 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 15:38:29 -0000 Subject: The Purpose of the Weasleys (was; Saving every Sickle) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59311 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Leah Jamison" wrote: > > Leah (me ) replies: > I don't think we can really know how much the other Weasleys complain > about their situation. I think we get an especially close look at > Ron because of his relationship with Harry. If Ginny were part of > the trio (yes, I know, then it would be a quartet ;-D) we may hear > that she thinks: "everything I have [is] rubbish" (Ron GoF). And to be a bit fairer to Ron, he has hand-me-down rubbish, and he's last in the line of the boys, so a lot of his stuff might have deteriorated quite a bit by the time it got to him. Even for the items that are bought second-hand, well, money would possibly have been tighter in the household by the time Ron came along than it was when there were only, say, Bill and Charlie. So the quality of even second-hand items might have been lower for Ron than it had been for his older brothers. Ersatz Harry, who's wondering whether he should try to put all the characters in their Myers-Briggs categories From oppen at mycns.net Wed Jun 4 07:33:30 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 02:33:30 -0500 Subject: Ron, Molly and Those Robes Message-ID: <002b01c32ab5$73cd7e00$65570043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 59312 Having grown up myself in circumstances where money was often tight, I've been following the debate about Ron, Molly and the Dress Robes From Hell with some interest. My own take is that while Ron could have handled the situation better, Molly and Arthur are a long way from being free of fault. Firstly, the Weasley parents don't seem to have their heads on quite straight as regards money. When you've got four kids in boarding school, and books to buy for them for five years into the future, spending a windfall on a trip to Egypt strikes me as slightly insane. Far better IMNSHO to have put that money into a "Weasley Children School Fund" and budgeted it for new robes, books and so on---and _then_ seen if the family finances would stretch as far as a trip to Egypt for all. Even before that, the money that went for the infamous Flying Ford Anglia could have probably bought lots of robes, books and school supplies. Also, Molly Weasley knows how to knit---would she know enough about how to sew to either fix the second-hand robes she says she was reduced to buying, or to run up a set of dress robes "from scratch?" I'm not any kind of a seamster myself, but I know lots of people who _do_ sew, and they tell me that buying material and running up a set of robes would be quite a bit easier than putting together a "Muggle" suit of clothes; robes are much less complicated and have a lot fewer parts to them than even the simplest "Muggle" clothing---and it would almost certainly have been much cheaper than buying robes off-the-rack. Even I, if I knew how to run a sewing machine, could probably put together a simple robe, given the material to work with. And I don't think for a second that Molly doesn't know what is and is not in fashion for wizards---she reads _Witch Weekly,_ and the Muggle equivalent publications all have articles on fashions. As for time, now that her youngest is off to school, she isn't being run ragged at home---would it be _that_ much trouble to do some sewing, in between knitting maroon sweaters for Ickle Ronniekins? Maybe Arthur's next acquisition of a Muggle thingamabob might be a second-hand sewing machine, and Molly could surprise Ron with a set of beautiful maroon dress robes in his exact size. (Although I would think, myself, that dark blue or dark green would look better on a redhead, she apparently thinks differently) One of my learned colleagues here, I disremember who, said that Ron seems to be obsessed with money, and that he's the only Weasley who is. I'd like to point out that Ron is also the Weasley who gets by far the most "screen time," and that the Twins certainly seem to be interested in money---one recurring leitmotif in _GoF_ turns out to be their attempts to get Ludo Bagman to pay up on the gambling debt he ran up to them. We hardly _see_ Charlie, Bill or Percy enough to know how they feel, but Percy's slightly obsessive desire to please his bosses might come from a fierce determination to keep his job and be making money. I think that in _OoP_ we might well get some more background on the Weasleys, including maybe why they're so poor. From CareALotsClouds at aol.com Wed Jun 4 16:28:14 2003 From: CareALotsClouds at aol.com (CareALotsClouds at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 12:28:14 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron, Molly and Those Robes Message-ID: <1d3.b1e8230.2c0f781e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59313 In a message dated 04/06/03 17:21:34 GMT Daylight Time, oppen at mycns.net writes: > When you've got four kids in boarding school, > and books to buy for them for five years into the future, spending a > windfall on a trip to Egypt strikes me as slightly insane. They won that trip to Egypt, thats why they were in the paper. As for the car, we don't even know if he did pay for it, we also know that he used it for experiments and even now he is finished he can't sell it because its in the Forbidden Forest. I dont see why Molly should spend night and day knitting all of their uniforms when they already have some which they COULD afford because they have them. At the end of the day, the Weasleys get by. They are not starving or anything. Loadsa love Nic xx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rayheuer3 at aol.com Wed Jun 4 16:46:15 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 12:46:15 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron, Molly and Those Robes Message-ID: <188.1a78bfd2.2c0f7c57@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59314 CareALotsClouds at aol.com writes: > They won that trip to Egypt, thats why they were in the paper. > As for the car, we don't even know if he did pay for it, we also know that > he > used it for experiments and even now he is finished he can't sell it because > > its in the Forbidden Forest. Actually, the prize they won was cash. 700 Galleons to be specific (in the accepted "exchange" rate, that's roughly $5.000 US). Aside from the trip to visit Bill, they used the money to buy Ron a new wand to replace the one that was broken in CoS. I always got the impression that the Ford Anglia was seized by the Ministry and Arthur kept it for "study". I doubt he would *ever* be "finished" with his "study" of the car. And he certainly couldn't "sell" it, it's contraband. However, this does bring up an interesting point. Aside from the usual WW methods of transport (apparating, broomsticks, floo powder, portkeys), the Anglia was pretty much the only way the Weasleys had of getting around as a family. With the Anglia gone due to Ron's misdeeds, the Weasley budget has another hole in it. And, as far as we know, it has not been replaced. Then again, it's not like MoM officials need a "company car". [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 16:50:53 2003 From: shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com (viewsonpotter) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 16:50:53 -0000 Subject: The Purpose of the Weasleys (was; Saving every Sickle) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59315 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jesta Hijinx" wrote: >Ron, at least, appears to suffer from > something common to the modern "Muggle" world which I am just as > condemnatory about as some of the writing here about the Weasley family > values taken from different perspectives: he shows signs of money addiction > and an obsession (and I don't use the word lightly, if you look at some of > my past postings)..... > Ron is the > only Weasley we see fret openly or get weird about money - has anyone else > noticed this? I'd like to think the others realize that their parents are > doing the best they can, they're really doing okay (they're all managing to > make it through Hogwarts, after all) and Charlie and Bill have independent > careers which they appear to enjoy and seem to be remarkably well- adjusted > human beings. Ouch! Obsessed....hmmm. Ok, this is a fourteen year old boy who is the youngest of six brothers and gets everything second (maybe 3rd, 4th or 5th) hand. Even his pet is hand-me-down. How do you know Bill and Charlie weren't as 'obsessed' at fourteen. And how do you know Ron will not grow up to be as well adjusted and self fullfilled at their age? If Ron is *obsessed* with money why did he give all the Leprechaun Gold from the QWC to Harry? That, surely, is not a sign of a greedy, money-obsessed person? In PS we see how Harry hates going to school looking like a freak, dressed in Dudley's old clothes. Ron feels the same way about his too- short robes and lacey dress robes. We see him whining and complaining to Harry because Harry is his best friend. But AFAIR their first meeting on the train, far from complaining, Ron tried to cover up for his meagre lunch, and not having money for the candy cart. I think Ron is a normal 14 year-old who has courage, loyalty and strength of character far beyond his years. (Yes he is my favourite HP character, how did you guess?) Infact the only member of the Weasely family with an unhealthy obsession (I am not counting Mr. Weasley's facination with plugs :)is IMO Percy. Percy is obsessed with his image, his position and power. He is even jealous of Harry for being on friendly terms with Fudge. Imagine if he had been in Ron's place - always in Harry's shadow. Do you think he would have shown Harry the loyalty that Ron does? I dont think. But that is just my opinion :) Shaggy From dorigen at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 17:02:02 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 17:02:02 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron, Molly and Those Robes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59316 >They won that trip to Egypt, thats why they were in the paper. They didn't actually win the trip to Egypt, they won the wizard equivalent of the lottery -- a large sum of money -- and spent almost all of it on the trip to Egypt. I agree that this was, while understandable, also very irresponsible. However, I have a theory that might explain such an action. Suppose someone (Dumbledore, or some other member of the Old Crowd working against Voldemort) needed someone to go to Egypt -- perhaps for research, perhaps to follow up some clue as to how to defeat Voldemort, heal Neville's parents, or some other useful project. Dumbledore can't go; he's busy and also high-profile. Hagrid isn't qualified to do whatever it is (perhaps it requires a fully trained wizard). In fact, anyone *known* to be working with Dumbledore would be noticed and perhaps watched. Then the Weasleys win the lottery. Possibly they were planning originally to save or invest the money. Instead, at the request of Dumbledore (or whoever) they took this trip. A family trip, well publicized and totally above board ... and during which they could (with their son's help) do all the "tourist" things like visiting pyramids and learning about Egyptian wizards. Ancient Egypt was very big on immortality and artificial preservation of life. I wonder if Voldemort did research there too? And whether ingredients from the Philosopher's Stone could be found in Egypt? And what other interesting potion ingredients might be found only in Egypt? And what new curses could be learned? Just a thought, Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From jodel at aol.com Wed Jun 4 17:45:24 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 13:45:24 EDT Subject: "Purebloods", "Mudbloods" and Muggle-borns Message-ID: <178.1b960dac.2c0f8a34@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59317 Felinia Beauclerc writes: << I'd say the odds that there are *any* wizards who have totally pure, wizard-only bloodlines that go back to the dawn of time (or even to the time of Hogwarts' establishment) are vanishingly small. >> And I'd agree with you. In fact I've got a series of essays over on the Red Hen site that go into my own interpretations of this issue, in detail. (www.redhen-publications.com) Wizards and Muggles lived side-by-side for most of human history. There is no way that they have not interbred. It was only after the establishment of wizarding seclusion in 1692 that wizards stopped (temporarily) interbreeding with Muggles. We are talking about only some 300 years, among people who demonstrably live to at least 150. My own take on it is that the definitions are mostly cultural. And they are not unconnected with class distinctions within the wizarding population. And the issue of the "purity" of one's ancestry only even began being considered in the Renaisance. At a time that Muggle aristocrats were attempting to draw distinctions between themselves and the encroaching of a rising merchant class by tracing their own "glorious ancestry", wizarding aristos began tracing how loing their own families had been magical. It was only then that they began to marry other magicals for the sake of their magic rather than some prominent Muggle for the sake of some worldly advantage of fortune or influence. Their close retainers followed suit and became, if anything, more insistent upon marryingonly other magicals. Meanwhile the plebian wizards strewn across the landscape continued to marry their neighbors who were usually Muggles and raised familes who were mixed magical and Muggle. It was only after the wizards went into seclusion, acompanied by their Muggle family members, and after about a century of isolation -- during which those Muggle family members died off, and fewer and fewer of the new children failed to be magical -- that nearly all wizards began thinking of themselves as purebloods. The resistance to the inclusion of Muggle-born wizards would only be as great as it is if there had been a period within memory (not necessarily "living" memory) during which Muggle-born wizards were *not* admitted to the wizarding world. And this period is likely to have been comparitively short. We have been directly told that Seclusion was established in 1692. We can see that the wizarding world had relaxed (although not abolished) its seclusion early enough for at least some Muggle technology to have been adopted by wizards, such as the Hogwarts Express. That the Express is a steam train would indicate that the adoption was before Muggle trains had largely converted to deisel. Hm. I am just now realizing that one of my Red Hen essays may need some modification. Because a new, and very reasonable possibility has just occured to me. I have been postulating that the ww relaxed the terms of its seclusion at some point during the Industrial Revolution (and still think that it is the more likely scenario). But it is also possible that the actual relaxation of Seclusion may have come at the end of the 19th century rather than at the beginning. The ww has adopted steam trains, which indicates that the restoration of contact took place some time after the railroads were established in the 1830s and before deisel technology was widely adopted in the early 20th century. The wizarding world has also adopted a form of "radio" technology without the preliminary form of telegraph (which the Floo network performs more than adequately) either indicating a later time for first contact, or an established line of communications by the time that Muggles developed radio. The wizarding "wireless" would not bear that name unless the cultural exchange were moving from Muggle to magical rather than the other way around, and the probability is that these bits of "modern technology" were developed and introduced by Muggle-born wizards who had grown up with such conveniences. The final contributing factor that argues in favor of a late 19th century or very early 20th century point of contact is the statement that Voldemort is the most dangerous Dark wizard that the ww has had to deal with "in a century". At the very least this implies that there was a serious problem with some Dark wizard in the later days of the 19th century. Someone that Grindlewald never measured up to. It is not unreasonable to suppose that it was in the aftermath of this conflict that the ww finally decided to seek out Muggle-born wizards, train and recruit them and restore their population numbers. Which would mean that the current resistance to this policy is an indication of the ww not having fully come to grips with the idea. Another factor that enters into this is related to wizarding lifespans. I happen to believe that the current wizarding lifespans are due to a 2-tier process. First that channeling magical energy itself has a beneficial effect upon the wizard's physical well-being, and that, secondy, the wizard's natural lifespan is further increased and enhanced by medi-magical processes which extend his span of able-bodied and mentally-competent performance. A "natural" lifespan would be in the neighborhood of 90-125 years. The enhanced lifespan is typically 125-175 years or thereabout. I am not convinced that these medi-magical procedures are designed increase a witch's fertile years as well as to extend her able-bodied geriatric period. The strains of a pregnancy might be more than they can reasonably be expected to offset. A woman with a natural lifespan of 90-125 years is still highly unlikely to be fertile beyond the age of 60 or 70. And at present it is implied that witches reach puberty at about the same ages as Muggle females. This extrapolates a witch's childbearing years into a span of about 60 years, give or take a few. Which means that witches of childbearing age are a comparitively small segment of the overall population. Extrapolating a wizarding population of some 30,000 for Great Britian and Ireland witches of childbearing age probably number no more than around 5000. Which makes them very valuable. And explains some of the wizard/non-human pairings of which we have been told. It also makes a deal of additional sense of Arthur Weasley's statement that wizards would have died out if they hadn't married Muggles. -JOdel From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:48:04 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 17:48:04 -0000 Subject: The trip to Egypt WAS Re: Ron, Molly and Those Robes In-Reply-To: <002b01c32ab5$73cd7e00$65570043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59318 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: > Firstly, the Weasley parents don't seem to have their heads on > quite straight as regards money. When you've got four kids in > boarding school, and books to buy for them for five years into the > future, spending a windfall on a trip to Egypt strikes me as > slightly insane. Far better IMNSHO to have put that money into > a "Weasley Children School Fund" and budgeted it for new robes, > books and so on---and _then_ seen if the family finances would > stretch as far as a trip to Egypt for all. I think what we all forget about the Weasley Egypt trip is its *timing*. It takes place a couple of weeks after Ginny was nearly murdered by Tom Riddle. The kids were undoubtedly affected by this. 'He [Harry],Ron, Fred and George sat in a corner of the Gryffindor Common Room, unable to say anything to each other. Percy wasn't there. He had gone to send an owl to Mr and Mrs Weasley, then shut himself up in his dormitory.' [CoS Ch. 16, p.218 UK paperback]. Later, Ron could have been killed when he went after Ginny. Mrs Weasley was discovered by Harry Ron and Ginny sitting crying in Dumbledore's office [Start of Ch.18, CoS]. So, having won a huge amount of money, what do the Weasley parents do with it? They take their family on the holiday of a lifetime. Bill gets to see his little sister. Instead of sitting round the Burrow, the kids get to see lots of exciting things in Egypt. They now have interesting and fun things to think about rather than how Ginny nearly died. They have happy and exciting memories about that year, not just terrifying ones. Is there any reference to Ginny's near death experience in PoA? Obliquely, yes. 'Mum wouldn't let Ginny come in the last one.' [a curse ridden tomb - PoA, Ch. 1, p.13 ]. Ron, who just won the Special Award for helping rescue Ginny, got a brand new wand. [PoA Ch. 4, p.47, UK paperback]. Ginny goes red when she sees Harry 'perhaps because he had saved her life during their last term at Hogwarts' [PoA Ch.4, p.51]. But the family appear to have put it behind them. So the exciting, out-of-the-ordinary, expensive holiday isn't the extravagance it seems. It's a successful attempt at a change of scenery for everyone. Rest, relaxation, and being together as a family after a traumatic time. An event which is quite naturally going to take the topic of conversation away from the end of last term. It sounds like money well spent to me. ;-) Pip!Squeak From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 18:20:16 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 18:20:16 -0000 Subject: Hermione And Bulgaria In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59319 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Louis Badalament" wrote: > > Greetings. > > I'm Louis Badalament, first-time poster, hello. Onto my question; I > remember Hermione saying at one point in Goblet of Fire that Viktor > invited her to Bulgaria with him over summer break. Personal > opinions, now; do you think Hermione would have taken Viktor up on > his offer? If so, why and how long do you think she'd have stayed? > If not, why? Also, if anyone could answer this; is there anything > *touristy* down in Bulgaria? I'm wondering where Viktor would take > Hermione if she got into a sightseeing mood. > > Great To Be Here, > > Louis Badalament bboy_mn: Bulgaria- Boarders on Romania to the north, the Black Sea to the east, and Greece and Turkey to the south. It is 145 miles from the bulgarian capital of Sofia to the Greek Mediterranian city of Saloniki (Thessoloniki), and 195 miles to the Dragon Research Center in Romania (see maps a link below) Romanian Dragon Center Intro- http://www.homestead.com/BlueMoonMarket/Files/Hogwarts/RomDragCenter.html Direct to Dragon Center Maps- http://www.homestead.com/BlueMoonMarket/Files/Hogwarts/Romania1.htm WOO-HOO! Got to plug my maps again. It's 212 miles from Sofia to the Burgas on the shores of the Black Sea. I suspect that Viktor lives in the beautiful Rhodopi Planina mountain range south of Sofia and near the Greek border. Bulgaria is one of those old mysterious European countries steep in old dark magic. I can't see Hermione passing up a chance to go to a place like this. But I find myself wondering if Hermione will travel there with her parents, or if her parents trust her enough to send a 15? year old girl to spend a few weeks with a boy who is clearly interested in her? Either way, I'm pretty sure she is going. More info on Bulgaria- Bulgarian Tourism- http://www.bulgariantourism.com/ Travel Bulgaria- http://www.travel-bulgaria.com/index_.shtml Goolge- Bulgria- Travel and Tourism- http://directory.google.com/Top/Regional/Europe/Bulgaria/Travel_and_Tourism/ Hope that helps. bboy_mn From marilyn at gtf.org Wed Jun 4 18:23:04 2003 From: marilyn at gtf.org (Marilyn ) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 18:23:04 -0000 Subject: The Death of Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59320 gishstar1 wrote: > I think Cornelius Fudge will be killed, possibly Arthur Weasley, > and then Percy. > > Lucius: Saint Pope Lucius I, became Pope when the exiled Saint > Cornelius died... moving on... > > -I think Fudge will die / be killed and Lucius will be put in > charge of MoM. Him being put in charge will probably be where > the 'Percy death-in-question' will come into play. I like this theory, especially the cool points for Papal history, but I don't think it can apply as early as Book V because of the fact that Cornelius is so clearly set up to be a horrible figure of bureaucracy for some significant period of the fight with Voldemort. As atrocious as he was when going against Dumbledore at the end of GoF, I really think it was just foreshadowing for what is to come as far as all of us wanting to throw our books at the wall in frustration with Fudge. From what I can tell of JKR, I think she is looking forward to torturing us a bit with it. And if Fudge dies too soon, it's more about bureaucratic confusion than the stupidity of bureaucratic leaders, which is what I feel she's going to play up. Just a thought, marilyn From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:39:09 2003 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 17:39:09 -0000 Subject: Being a prefect/the analogy F&G - J&S In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59321 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jillily3g" wrote: > Something that occurred to me as I re-read the books is that James > was Head Boy in his day, according to Hagrid, but he and Sirius were > also said to have been as much trouble as Gred and Forge. > Beth (Re: James as a prefect) In the case of James & Co, we have to consider the full moon -- I don't think James would have abandoned Remus, prefect, Head Boy or no, regardless of Sirius and Peter. We don't really know what else they were up to, but James might have been able to rationalise when it came to being there for Remus during the werewolf transformation. The situation when James & Co went to school was slightly different -- Voldemort had been steadily gathering power during the seventies, probably recruiting his cohorts when they were still in school. "All's fair in love and war" might've held some appeal (as long as the mischief was aimed at the local Death Eater Youth Group.) Now going off in a slightly different direction, sorry... (Re: James & Sirius = Gred & Forge?) Is there anyone else who has trouble taking Hagrid's words in PoA to mean that James & Sirius are 100% Gred & Forge - this assumption bothers me no end when I'm reading M,W,P & P fanfiction. The thing is I see James & Sirius' troublemaking as a result of boredom rather than disinterest. Everyone probably remembers the kids who caught on to the teacher's point ten minutes into the lesson and then had nothing to do for the rest of the time except for fidgeting, asking bothersome questions and disturbing the others. The bad thing with being top of the class is that you run out of competition. I can easily see the Wizarding Wunderkinds turning to greater challenges such as starting the Animagus project as twelve-year-olds and completing it three years later. With the twins, I don't know. They're obviously bright enough (Ron says in PS they usually get good marks) but Molly was upset with them for not getting more OWLs, and I love them dearly, but fifteen-year-old Animagi they ain't. They've decided what they want to do with their lives and They're Just Not Interested in School. Playing Quidditch and planning pranks is more fun. My two Knuts or whatever this is worth, Alshain From andylynnlegore at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 17:44:10 2003 From: andylynnlegore at hotmail.com (scootergrid) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 17:44:10 -0000 Subject: Ron, Molly and Those Robes In-Reply-To: <002b01c32ab5$73cd7e00$65570043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59322 > Firstly, the Weasley parents don't seem to have their heads on quite > straight as regards money. When you've got four kids in boarding school, > and books to buy for them for five years into the future, spending a > windfall on a trip to Egypt strikes me as slightly insane. > I would disagree with this. I think the issue at hand is a difference between Ron's perspective on his situation, and that of his parent's perspective. It seems as the the Weasley's represent a family that is more focused on a person's inner worth than material worth. I think this characteristic will be essential to their use in the plot. Based on that, The Weasley parent's provide for their children as best they can, which I feel is adequate, given they are all clothed and fed and provided with school necessities. When they win the cash award they choose to spend it on what is most important to them - neccesities and family. They buy Ron the wand he "needs", and then use the rest to spend time together as a family. Molly and Arthur, as I see them, would see it as foolish to buy new clothes when their kids have perfectly good ones already. > And I don't think for a second that Molly doesn't know what is and is not in fashion for wizards---she reads _Witch Weekly,_ and the Muggle equivalent publications all have articles on fashions. I'm sure she does read them, but that doesn't mean she feels it's necessary to provide them with such things. Thier focus isn't on image, it's on utility. As for time, now that her youngest is off to school, she isn't being run ragged at home---would it be _that_ much trouble to do some sewing, in between knitting maroon sweaters for Ickle Ronniekins? Maybe Arthur's next acquisition of a Muggle thingamabob might be a second-hand sewing machine, and Molly could surprise Ron with a set of beautiful maroon dress robes in his exact size. (Although I would think, myself, that dark blue or dark green would look better on a > redhead, she apparently thinks differently) This is interesting - we don't know much about how clothing is made or fixed or rules about goods and purchasing things. I know it has been discussed at length here, so I'll just say I'm excited to find out more about this in later books! > One of my learned colleagues here, I disremember who, said that Ron seems to be obsessed with money, and that he's the only Weasley who is. I'd like to point out that Ron is also the Weasley who gets by far the most "screen time," and that the Twins certainly seem to be interested in money---one recurring leitmotif in _GoF_ turns out to be their attempts to get Ludo Bagman to pay up on the gambling debt he ran up to them. We hardly _see_ Charlie, Bill or Percy enough to know how they feel, but Percy's slightly obsessive desire to please his bosses might come from a fierce determination to keep his job and be making money. > I agree with this point - Ron does get the most POV attention, and so it makes sense that we would see him as being the most money- oriented. He is also an adolescent and, by there very nature, going to be more focused on his appearance, image, and posessions than the older characters, though we do see these qualities in them as well. > I think that in _OoP_ we might well get some more background on the > Weasleys, including maybe why they're so poor. I hope so! scootergrid From stix4141 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 19:04:46 2003 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 19:04:46 -0000 Subject: Quote Source (The Death of Book 5) In-Reply-To: <017a01c32a5f$93da1ab0$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59323 Merlin: > J.K.R. has already stated that the character will not be one of the three main characters of Harry Ron or Hermione, but she did say that the person has been around since the first book and that they were a fan of Harry's. Hi! Can you provide your source? No one on the list seems to have found an accurate source of the infamous "fan of Harry's will die" quote. The running concensus is that it's a fake, the result of a journalistic liberty. We'd love to be proved wrong, though! Cheers! -stickbook From yellows at aol.com Wed Jun 4 19:00:57 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 15:00:57 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione And Bulgaria Message-ID: <19c.1592dc79.2c0f9be9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59324 In a message dated 6/4/2003 2:22:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, bboy writes: > But I find myself wondering if Hermione will travel > there with her parents, or if her parents trust her enough to send a > 15? year old girl to spend a few weeks with a boy who is clearly > interested in her? Either way, I'm pretty sure she is going. I agree. I'm pretty sure she'll have been to visit Krum over the summer, or at the very least, she'll have kept in touch with him via owl post. Of course, we get the hint here and there that Krum's school isn't as welcoming to Muggle-born wizards as Hogwarts is, so Hermione might not really be welcome at Krum's house if his parents are of a similar opinion. And I do think it would be a little odd for her parents to send Hermione off alone to another country to visit an older boy who has a crush on her. So, basically, I feel pretty confident there'll be *something* about Hermione's summer to agitate Ron, but how serious it will be is up for discussion. :) Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yellows at aol.com Wed Jun 4 19:15:48 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 15:15:48 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Purebloods", "Mudbloods" and Muggle-borns Message-ID: <1d2.b227927.2c0f9f64@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59325 In a message dated 6/4/2003 1:44:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, Felinia writes: > Let's say that Hermione does marry Ron, eventually. Their children, the > first generation, are not going to be considered purebloods by those who > count and care, no matter how brilliant Hermione is. But that's decidedly > not Hermione's fault. She is what she is. This is the kind of thing that has been bothering me since I began reading the series years ago. First of all, just like all races, there are few "purebloods" these days. Travel and the Internet have made the world a different place than it was thousands of years ago. We can meet people from other countries and other backgrounds. I can have conversations with all of you, and I Iive in Florida. So, of course, millions of people marry "outside" of their races or their cultural backgrounds. It's difficult to find someone who can trace back very far without finding some varieties in his family tree. The same must be true in the WW. It bothers me as well that Harry is considered a "halfblood." If Seamus is "half-and-half" (ooh -- could *he* be the death of Book 5? okay, sorry -- I'm obsessing) because one of his parents is a Muggle and the other is a Witch, then how can Harry be the same thing? Both Lily and James were magical parents. Shouldn't Harry be more like a "three-quartersblood?" :) Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ashadowchild at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 17:56:40 2003 From: ashadowchild at yahoo.com (Milica Meili) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 10:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Death of Book 5 In-Reply-To: <017a01c32a5f$93da1ab0$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> Message-ID: <20030604175640.23581.qmail@web21408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59326 Merlin wrote: J.K.R. has already stated that the character will not be one of the three main characters of Harry Ron or Hermione, but she did say that the person has been around since the first book and that they were a fan of Harry's. Merlin Hi everyone I'm a newbie here, but I've been following several of the threads over a period of time now. Forgive me if this has already come up.The following thought just ocurred to me and I really need to tell you all :) If JKR really said what you're writing here Merlin, I think it could very well be Neville. After all he is a more or less major character. He's a lot around HRH in the books. Book one: It's Neville who wants to fight the three as the go for the PS, why not Dean, Seamus? It's Nevilles 10 points that secure Gryffindor the House Cup. Book two: When Harry can't go to Hogsmeade he meets Neville on the corridor. Book four: Ginny is asked by Neville to go to the ball with him. Nevill has the book about water plants where Harry could find the solution to his problem. It's like JKR lets him appear on all kinds of occasions so we never forget about him. He's always in some way or other important to the story line (well that's probably exaggerated). Also he's been around since book one, introduced on the Hogwarts Express. We know more about him than about the other boys in HR dormitory. He does admire Harry, maybe not openly like Colin, but there is something. His death would be hard to write, not only because - even if he is forgetful and everthing - everyone likes him. HRH help Nevill where they can. Also it would be hard because of the reactions of the other characters. A friend, a fellow Gryffindor dead...I wonder what Draco would say... Well, these are some of my thoughts. Hope they are acceptable. shadow child Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? 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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 20:14:15 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 13:14:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione And Bulgaria In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030604201415.45511.qmail@web21202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59327 --- Louis wrote: > > Personal > opinions, now; do you think Hermione would have > taken Viktor up on > his offer? If so, why and how long do you > think she'd have stayed? > If not, why? Lynn: Personally, I can't see Hermione's parents letting her go to Bulgaria to visit Krum. They've never met him or his parents and I don't think they are comfortable enough with the WW to go with Hermione for a visit. I think the most we'll see is that they kept in touch over the summer. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From rayheuer3 at aol.com Wed Jun 4 20:15:21 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 16:15:21 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Purpose of the Weasleys (was; Saving every Sickle) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59328 shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com writes: > Even his pet is hand-me-down. I assume you mean Scabbers. But Ron is still disparaging of Pig, who is Ron's alone, and was a gift. One of the other posters was quite upset about this, since it shows a streak of ingratitude in Ron's constant whining. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 20:20:54 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 20:20:54 -0000 Subject: Money, Trips, Cars, and More Money (Was: Ron, Molly, Robes...) In-Reply-To: <188.1a78bfd2.2c0f7c57@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59329 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > CareALotsClouds at a... writes: > > ..edited out previous post... > > Actually, the prize they won was cash. 700 Galleons to be specific > (in the accepted "exchange" rate, that's roughly $5.000 US). bboy_mn: Close but no cigar. The exchange rate is G1.00 = ?5.00 as stated by JKR in an interview. Unfortunately, we have no G to $ exchange rate, and we have no sense as to what factors would cause the Galleon/Pound exchange rate to float, so... Brit ? = US $1.634 US $ = ?0.612 So... ?5.00 x 1.634 = US$8.17 Although the exchange rate is down, the HP Lexicon says $7.33. The 3 yr average is 1.55, so... ?5.00 x 1.55 = US $7.75. [for simplicity, I always use G1:?5:$7. Nice round numbers] Someone earlier in this thread said, that he money won in the contest should have been put into the bank and used to enrich the children's live instead of being squandered on a vacation. I say the trip of a lifetime, and a lifetimes worth of memories and family bonding are a lot more enriching than new robes or new books. Long long long after the robes are outgrown and the books are gathering dust, the Weasley family will sit around laughing and remembering their trip to Egypt; the fun, the family, the food, the people, the magic, the education, the sites, etc.... Money placed in the bank would be nickled and dimed (...er ...Sickled and Knutted) away and never really seen, never really making a difference in the Weasley's lives. G700 is about $5,000, certainly nice but not life altering. So the Weasley parents had to make a choice, they were already getting by, even though they didn't have everything they wanted, they certainly we not lacking for anything they needed, and the money was a windfall. It was not something budgeted into their life. So the choices were put it in the bank and watch it slowly fade away, or spend it on something that would enrich their family for a lifetime. Personally, I would have chosen lifetime of family enrichment. Now if they were truly destitute and starving, it would have been a foolish decision, but given their circumstances and their modest but stable lives, I think they made the right choice. > > I always got the impression that the Ford Anglia was seized by the > Ministry and Arthur kept it for "study". I doubt he would *ever* be > "finished" with his "study" of the car. And he certainly couldn't > "sell" it, it's contraband. > > However, this does bring up an interesting point. ..., the > Anglia was pretty much the only way the Weasleys had of getting > around as a family. > > ...edited... > > -end rayheuer3- bboy_mn continues: Just exactly how enchanted was that car? It's been running around the forest for a long time and there aren't likely to be any petrol station in an enchanted forbidden forest. So can I assume that the car is fueled by magic??? That would mean that Mr. Weasley was breaking the law everytime he drove the car. Even thought the car appear to function as a normal car, it was still fuel by magic and the many enchantments the Mr. Weasley placed on the car. Of course, how would anyone know, since, when used in a normal way, the car would appear perfectly normal? As a side note, I suspect that Sirius's motorcycle was the same way. It was enchanted to fly, but anytime there was a possibility of Muggle detection, Sirius drove it like a normal motorcycle and no one was the wiser including the Ministry of Magic. Where is that motorcycle anyway? Hagrid was the last one to have it, is it possible that he has it stashed away in a shed somewhere? Is it possible it will be a legacy passed on to Harry? Is there any chance they will let me drive it? ...hummmm.... enquiring minds want to know. Which brings up another question, does Arthur, or Fred, George, or Ron for that matter, actually know how to drive a car? Given heavy London traffic, it would certainly take a skilled driver. I personally believe that the car was driven by magical intent. Mr. Weasley intended for the car to drive safely down the highway, so the car took that magical intent and did what Mr. Weasley wanted. It was really the car driving the car. Mr. Weasley and all the young Weasley would be completely lost at the wheel of a true muggle car. Just a thought. bboy_mn From meboriqua at aol.com Wed Jun 4 20:50:19 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 20:50:19 -0000 Subject: Ron, Molly and Those Robes In-Reply-To: <002b01c32ab5$73cd7e00$65570043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59330 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: >When you've got four kids in boarding school, and books to buy for them for five years into the future, spending a windfall on a trip to Egypt strikes me as slightly insane.> It does seem insane, but it is understandable. As others have already pointed out, it is nice to create memories for the kids and to take advantage of the opportunity to travel. My boyfriend and I are taking a vacation together this summer, even though we definitely can't afford it. We've never been away together and we've lived together for six years. We deserve it, and I think the Weasleys deserved a chance to get away, see some sights and spend time together as a family. > I think that in _OoP_ we might well get some more background on the Weasleys, including maybe why they're so poor.> I'm wondering just how long the Weasley line has struggled with money in general. They seem to be the polar opposites of the Malfoys: both old wizarding families, both involved in the MoM, but the Weasleys are a poor and large family while the Malfoys had just one child, live in a manor, have house elves and donate money as they please. I also get the feeling that Arthur has made some decisions career-wise that might have affected the family's monetary status. Didn't Molly mention that Arthur could have been promoted at the MoM if he had professed different beliefs about Muggles? Arthur Weasley reminds me of the kind of person who is well-educated and has every opportunity out there, but chooses to be a social worker (or *ahem* a NYC teacher) instead of a stock broker. He seems to enjoy his job, and never complains about having to work overtime. --jenny from ravenclaw, who chose to be a teacher ******************************************** From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 20:57:56 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 20:57:56 -0000 Subject: "Life-Debt" Gripe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59331 Felinia Beauclerc wrote: > I see relatively frequent, almost casual references to "life debts" > between characters. Yet nowhere does the phrase actually > appear in canon that I know of. Anyone got a cite they care to > share? Now me: This quote from Ch. 17 of PS doesn't put the two words "life" and "debt" together, but it's definitely implied: Dumbledore to Harry: "And then, your father did something Snape could never forgive. He saved his life. Professor Snape couldn't bear being in your father's debt..." ~Phyllis From Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 21:05:01 2003 From: Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com (newdella) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 21:05:01 -0000 Subject: Tomboy Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59332 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" > > Inge (me) again: > Actually no - that doesn't help since my mainpoint was my wondering > as to why none of these if-existing close friends of Lily's never > bothered to let Harry know that they're out there and thinking of him. > They may not have been able to contact him at the Dursley's - but > Harry has been at Hogwarts 4 years now and any old bosom friend of > Lily's could easily have sent him a note or come to see him there. > If Lily had real close friends I'd expect them to do just that. > Close female friends are like soul-sisters and if one of them dies > (in this case being murdered) and leaves a baby behind the natural > thing would be for her friend to stay in close contact with the child. > As stated, this may not have been possible while Harry was not yet at > Hogwarts, but he is NOW and still noone has cared enough to let him > know that they knew and loved his mother or let him know that they're > out there for him. > That's what I find a bit odd. > Inge Rosebeth: I agree with you. If one of my girlfriends died I'd be leading the fight for custody. I had a couple of thoughts. First is we know about Mrs. Figg and I believe that she is one of Lily's friends using some kind of aging position to keep an eye on Harry. I also believe that Lily has other friends out there that we just don't know about. We only got a couple of names of the "old gang" in GF. (I'm at work without books). We don't know how big the "old gang" is or who is included in it. And, bottomline, I'd bet that all of these people were instructed by DD not to contact Harry directly and that if they are out there keeping an eye on him, not to inform Harry of who they are. I think this is all part of the protections that were set up during those missing 24 hours. Why no contact after Harry started at Hogwarts, because DD hasn't allowed it yet. I'm sure I'm missing some piece of information, but I can't think of what it is. I'll post it when I figure it out. Rosebeth From Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 21:06:30 2003 From: Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com (newdella) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 21:06:30 -0000 Subject: Tomboy Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59333 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" > > Inge (me) again: > Actually no - that doesn't help since my mainpoint was my wondering > as to why none of these if-existing close friends of Lily's never > bothered to let Harry know that they're out there and thinking of him. > They may not have been able to contact him at the Dursley's - but > Harry has been at Hogwarts 4 years now and any old bosom friend of > Lily's could easily have sent him a note or come to see him there. > If Lily had real close friends I'd expect them to do just that. > Close female friends are like soul-sisters and if one of them dies > (in this case being murdered) and leaves a baby behind the natural > thing would be for her friend to stay in close contact with the child. > As stated, this may not have been possible while Harry was not yet at > Hogwarts, but he is NOW and still noone has cared enough to let him > know that they knew and loved his mother or let him know that they're > out there for him. > That's what I find a bit odd. > Inge Rosebeth: I agree with you. If one of my girlfriends died I'd be leading the fight for custody. I had a couple of thoughts. First is we know about Mrs. Figg and I believe that she is one of Lily's friends using some kind of aging position to keep an eye on Harry. I also believe that Lily has other friends out there that we just don't know about. We only got a couple of names of the "old gang" in GF. (I'm at work without books). We don't know how big the "old gang" is or who is included in it. And, bottomline, I'd bet that all of these people were instructed by DD not to contact Harry directly and that if they are out there keeping an eye on him, not to inform Harry of who they are. I think this is all part of the protections that were set up during those missing 24 hours. Why no contact after Harry started at Hogwarts, because DD hasn't allowed it yet. I'm sure I'm missing some piece of information, but I can't think of what it is. I'll post it when I figure it out. Rosebeth From rayheuer3 at aol.com Wed Jun 4 21:28:03 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 17:28:03 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Money, Trips, Cars, and More Money (Was: Ron, Molly, R... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59334 In a message dated 6/4/03 4:22:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes: > Close but no cigar. The exchange rate is G1.00 = ?5.00 as stated by > JKR in an interview. Unfortunately, we have no G to $ exchange rate, > and we have no sense as to what factors would cause the Galleon/Pound > exchange rate to float, so... > > Brit ? = US $1.634 > US $ = ?0.612 > > So... > > ?5.00 x 1.634 = US$8.17 > > Although the exchange rate is down, the HP Lexicon says $7.33. The 3 > yr average is 1.55, so... ?5.00 x 1.55 = US $7.75. [for simplicity, I > always use G1:?5:$7. Nice round numbers] > But all of this relies on a fluctuating Muggle exchange rate for GBP:USD. In the forward to Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find them, "Dumbledore" writes: "...Comic Relief U.K. (which, funnily enough, has nothing to do with the American organization of the same name)....has raised over 250 million dollars since 1985 (that's also 174 million pounds, or thirty-four million, eight hundred and seventy-two Galleons, fourteen Sickles, and seven Knuts). In the forward to Quidditch through the Ages, there is a similar passage, but using a rounded figure of "34 million Galleons". These figures actually give a direct exchange rate of $7.35 = 1 Galleon, but for simplicity, I use $7.50. All this nonsense with math is probably why the WW uses "cold, hard cash" in the original sense of the words, ie, coins with an intrinsic precious metal content. -- Ray "You're and accountant, eh? Well, account for yourself!" - Max Bialystock (to Leo Blum), The Producers [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maryblue67 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 21:35:58 2003 From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 14:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hermione going to Bulgaria In-Reply-To: <1054760726.7429.17808.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030604213558.18683.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59335 I haven't been following all the messages in this topic (i apologize), but from the last messages i understand that the issue here is whether she would go and whether her parents would let her. I also have an opinion on this. The reason i don't think she will go to Bulgaria during the summer is that she, being the clever, prudent girl she is, with all her common sense, will probably understand that the rise of Voldermort will make traveling very dangerous, in particular for a young muggle-born witch alone. She usually recognizes danger and acts very prudently in its face. Her parents will probably be shocked and scared by this event as well. So they will probably stay in the country during their vacation, together as a family. I'm sure she knows how beautiful Bulgaria is, from books at least, and i'm sure she will stay in touch with Krum. But i don't think she will go. Just MHO. Maria ===== Maryblue ---------------------------------------------------------- "Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love" - Eistein __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From abigailnus at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 22:10:10 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 22:10:10 -0000 Subject: Intrinsically Good magic, and motives over ends (Fwd from OTC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59336 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" wrote: > > I innermurk conclude now: > > *My* whole point was that Cedric's death was *not* a consequence of > > Lily's sacrifice. There were too many other choices and people and > > things involved to trace it back to that. > > The only way you can make it a consequence of Lily's choice is to > > make it Harry's fault that Cedric died. Since you concede that > point, > > it is not a consequence. > > There, I can't agree. > > "Fault" has a moral valence. It was not Harry's fault that Cedric > died, though he feels as if it was--which is understandable; survivor > guilt is a heavy burden even if one *didn't* do anything instrumental > to bring the person into danger, the way Harry inadvertently did when > he insisted they take the Cup together. It was not Lily's fault that > Cedric died. It was only Voldemort's fault, and Wormtail's. I think I have an example that illustrates Amy's point. Two weeks ago I took my mother's car to the bank where I ran a few errands. My bank is right near a very good bakery (which is why I try not to go to the bank more than absolutely necessary) and upon leaving, I decided to go into this bakery and buy some cookies - just for my brother, of course! I then got in my mother's car and, while trying to make a left turn, didn't yield the right of way to a car coming from my right, and we collided - I'm fine, the other driver's fine, but I put a dent his car. Now, if I hadn't gone into the bakery, I would have arrived at the left turn a few minutes earlier, and the driver I ran into wouldn't have been there. It's entirely possible that I still would have had an accident, maybe even a worse one. Any number of things could have happened as a result of my leaving the area without being delayed by either pastry or exchanging insurance details, but they didn't. The fact remains that my accident is a consequence of my choice to go into the bakery. It is also a consequence of my choice to go to the bank, of the fact that my mother lets me drive her car, of the fact that I was born 22 years ago, and of the fact that I didn't yield the right of way. Only that last choice makes the accident my fault, but all the other choices (made by myself and others) led up to it. By the same token, Lily's choice to sacrifice herself for Harry set in motion a chain of events which led to many results. One of those results was that Cedric Diggory was in the position to be killed by Voldemort at the end of GoF. His actual death was a choice made by Voldemort and Wormtail, and they carry the blame for it, but it is still a consequence of Lily's choice 15 years earlier. Abigail From innermurk at catlover.com Wed Jun 4 22:28:05 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 22:28:05 -0000 Subject: Intrinsically Good magic, and motives over ends (Fwd from OTC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59337 > > > innermurk said earlier: > > > *My* whole point was that Cedric's death was *not* a consequence of > > > Lily's sacrifice. There were too many other choices and people and > > > things involved to trace it back to that. > > > The only way you can make it a consequence of Lily's choice is to > > > make it Harry's fault that Cedric died. Since you concede that > > point, > > > it is not a consequence. Amy said: > > There, I can't agree. > > > > "Fault" has a moral valence. It was not Harry's fault that Cedric > > died, though he feels as if it was--which is understandable; survivor > > guilt is a heavy burden even if one *didn't* do anything instrumental > > to bring the person into danger, the way Harry inadvertently did when > > he insisted they take the Cup together. It was not Lily's fault that > > Cedric died. It was only Voldemort's fault, and Wormtail's. Abigail said: > I think I have an example that illustrates Amy's point. Two weeks > ago I took my mother's car to the bank where I ran a few errands. My > bank is right near a very good bakery (which is why I try not to go to > the bank more than absolutely necessary) and upon leaving, I decided > to go into this bakery and buy some cookies - just for my brother, of > course! I then got in my mother's car and, while trying to make a left > turn, didn't yield the right of way to a car coming from my right, and > we collided - I'm fine, the other driver's fine, but I put a dent his car. > > Now, if I hadn't gone into the bakery, I would have arrived at the left > turn a few minutes earlier, and the driver I ran into wouldn't have been > there. It's entirely possible that I still would have had an accident, > maybe even a worse one. Any number of things could have happened > as a result of my leaving the area without being delayed by either pastry > or exchanging insurance details, but they didn't. The fact remains that > my accident is a consequence of my choice to go into the bakery. It is > also a consequence of my choice to go to the bank, of the fact that my > mother lets me drive her car, of the fact that I was born 22 years ago, > and of the fact that I didn't yield the right of way. Only that last choice > makes the accident my fault, but all the other choices (made by myself > and others) led up to it. > > By the same token, Lily's choice to sacrifice herself for Harry set in > motion a chain of events which led to many results. One of those > results was that Cedric Diggory was in the position to be killed by > Voldemort at the end of GoF. His actual death was a choice made by > Voldemort and Wormtail, and they carry the blame for it, but it is > still a consequence of Lily's choice 15 years earlier. > I still cannot agree to your reasoning. The fact that you failed to yeild is the *only* deciding choice that casued your accident. Any of the other choices can happen independantly of that one and no accident would occur. That particular choice could have occurred on any other corner with the same results. By the same token, Cedric's *death* is not a consequence of Lily's decision. Because the one has *nothing* to do with the other. The deciding choice was not Lily's. Innermurk From mmemalkin at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 22:30:45 2003 From: mmemalkin at yahoo.com (mmemalkin) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 22:30:45 -0000 Subject: Investigating Origins of Rowling's Inspirations: Why do it? (another essay) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59338 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arachne Webbstir" wrote: > Since Rowling studied French and literature, it's very likely she read > something by Anatole France, a French author and critic awarded Nobel Prize > in Literature in 1921. His novel PENGUIN ISLAND is available as e- book, > although I have 1931 "Thinker's Library" edition, translated into English by > A.W. Evans. PENGUIN ISLAND includes brutal King DRACO the Great (Book III, > part II), descendant of Kraken the Dragon. On the same page is mentioned a > St. FOY. > > Anatole France's satirical fantasy is a mock history of an imaginary island > whose inhabitants are descended from penguins, transformed into human beings > after accidentally being baptized by elderly holy man MAEL, who mistook > them for short, solemn people. MmeMalkin replies: You could be trying way too hard to derive Draco's surname. In French, "malfoi" means "bad faith." I can't remember where I read that derivation before, but it's a much simpler explanation. ;-) ~Diane From lilpurplealdy at netscape.net Wed Jun 4 22:31:10 2003 From: lilpurplealdy at netscape.net (Juliet) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 22:31:10 -0000 Subject: Being a prefect/the analogy F&G - J&S In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59339 Alshain: >> With the twins, I don't know. They're obviously bright enough (Ron says in PS they usually get good marks) but Molly was upset with them for not getting more OWLs, and I love them dearly, but fifteen-year-old Animagi they ain't. >> Now, I have a twin brother that reminds me strongly of the twins. He's bright, but disinterested with school- anything he gets interested in, though, he excels at. He'd rather build a racecar or a robotthan go and read Julius Caesar(of course, I'm the exact opposite ;). My point? Well, I think the above was a little harsh on the twins. James and Sirius took an interest in becoming Animagi, because they wanted to help Remus. Fred and George take an interest in pranks, because they like making people laugh- and they're good at it (remember all their creations). Now, who's to say that if the Duo ever got it into their heads to become Animagi, that they wouldn't succeed? I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, atleast. ~Aldrea From salsal19 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 21:07:42 2003 From: salsal19 at yahoo.com (Sally Unchester) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 14:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Death of Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030604210742.36842.qmail@web80507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59340 gishstar1 wrote: > > Lucius: Saint Pope Lucius I, became Pope when the exiled Saint > Cornelius died... moving on... ok so here I go again..... You quoted that this Papal reference and that makes me think even more it might be Dumbledore....I still stand that maybe Filch (he DOES like Harry but he's always hard on him), I also now think maybe Snape (DEFINITE Harry fan,TOUGH love!) but I can't see it as Arthur or Fudge maybe Percy because he will kill himself from the stress of work...(which side do I go on?against Voldie or for?) Then again, a part of me thinks perhaps the two older Weasleys maybe Bill or Charlie (I believe it is Charlie who DOES work with dragons.....maybe Bill forgive me if I'm wrong) but then again she said SINCE book one so that knocks out a few of them (the Creevey brothers, Sirius Black,Aunt Marge, etc.) A part of me wonders if it is Rita Skeeter (hehe then again,I'd be cheering not sad!) Any way so that's my NEW post for the day...forgive me I should wait and think more before I post......on a different note, does anyone have an opinion on what the "big secret" DD is going to tell Harry is? OK now it's start to make sense here are some facts.... Book five will be scary. Harry finds out a lot of things he hasn't stumbled across so far. In book five (Harry) has to examine exactly what death means, in even closer ways. We will see Mr. Weasley's car, Aragog, Dobby and the Dementors again. Book 5 will be 255,000 words - almost a third longer then Goblet of Fire. The Dursleys are in the next book, and there's stuff coming with them that people might not expect. During an interview, when JKR was asked in which Hogwarts room she'd like to be for 1 hour, she said it would be a room in which Harry has been before, but doesn't know its importance. Yet. It's very important in the plot that Harry has his mother's eyes, and that her wand was very good for charms. During an interview for Kids BBC, Victor Greensteet (reporter) asked Rowling if Harry would have a dragon for a pet. This is what she replied: "You can't tame a dragon, no matter what Hagrid thinks. It's simply impossible. So no. He has more common sense. He MAY have a different pet in the future, but for now, I won't say anything else". In the same interview for Kids BBC, the reporter asked J. K. if Harry had ever used the internet, and this is what she had to say: "No. They (the Dursleys) won't let him go near Dudley's computer, and Dudley is the only one who has a computer. They hit him if he gets too near to the keyboard. So the answer would be No. I use it a lot, but Harry doesn't. Wizards don't really need to go on the web. They have an even better way to find out what's happening in the outside world, which I think is a lot more fun than the Internet, but I'm going to keep quiet on this one." The choice between what's right and what's easy will be a pillar of the plot in Harry's last 3 years. The "Arabella Figg" Dumbledore refers to at the end of book four is indeed the same Mrs. Figg that takes care of Harry for the Dursleys in book one. We'll find out all about her. There will be a new sorting hat song. Harry's parents' profession will be a big part of the plot. We'll meet the real 'Mad-Eye' Moody in book five, and we'll like him even more than the fake Moody. Harry will have to deal with a venemous, disgruntled house-elf. (Winky?) We will find out why Voldemort killed Lily and James Potter. Something HUGE will be revealed about Lily Potter. There will be a female Defense Against The Dark Arts teacher with a personality like poisoned honey. We'll see Lupin in Book Five. Yes, we will see a lot of old characters in Book Five. Ginny Weasley will play more of a role in book five. One of the main characters, one of Harry's "fans" will die (not Ron or Hermione). The death will be "horrible to write." Now as per this, I can see it being Mad Eye, the new DADA teacher, or Mrs.Figg....just a thought.... Counting down..... Sally Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? 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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 22:22:06 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 22:22:06 -0000 Subject: Hermione going to Bulgaria In-Reply-To: <20030604213558.18683.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59341 <<< In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maria wrote: ...I don't think she will go to Bulgaria during the summer>>> The Sergeant Majorette says: I think Hermione *will* go to Bulgaria -- I smell a story arc: I don't think JKR is much into red herrings. Bulgaria is a very pretty place, very folkloric (I went there once because I like their bagpipes), lots of touristy stuff to see and do. As for the logistics, I'm thinking that if Mrs. Krum were to issue the actual invitation to the Grangers, propriety would be satified. There is also the fact that the Grangers are sufficiently well off to spend holidays in France and that Bulgaria is well known in Europe as a bargain vacation spot. It's concievable, for instance, that the Krums have a summer place on the Black Sea to which the entire 3- person Granger clan could be invited. --JDR From yellows at aol.com Wed Jun 4 23:29:22 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 19:29:22 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Death of Book 5 Message-ID: <5AE67423.18824ED1.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59342 In a message dated 6/4/2003 4:07:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, Sally writes: <> You're all going to laugh and say I'm being silly, but I just have to say that I'll be *extremely* upset if anything happens to Hedwig. I LOVE her. Every time she takes a little too long returning from a letter to Sirius or something, I get very antsy and almost want to skip ahead a few pages to see that she makes it back okay. :) Hedwig is one of my favorite characters. Brief Chronicles From bard7696 at aol.com Wed Jun 4 23:30:44 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 23:30:44 -0000 Subject: Ron, Molly and Those Robes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59343 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenny_ravenclaw" < meboriqua at a...> wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: > > >When you've got four kids in boarding school, and books to buy for > them for five years into the future, spending a windfall on a trip to > Egypt strikes me as slightly insane.> > > It does seem insane, but it is understandable. As others have already > pointed out, it is nice to create memories for the kids and to take > advantage of the opportunity to travel. My boyfriend and I are taking > a vacation together this summer, even though we definitely can't > afford it. We've never been away together and we've lived together > for six years. We deserve it, and I think the Weasleys deserved a > chance to get away, see some sights and spend time together as a > family. > We also have to remember that they didn't pick Egypt out of a hat. Bill, a sibling they probably don't get to see too terribly often, lives there. So, aside from the rich experiences, you have the kids seeing their older brother and also, given that they had a resource there, the trip probably didn't cost as much as a trip to someplace where they knew no one. And they bought a new wand for Ron. It is entirely possible that each of the children at home got something new that they needed, such as a book, a dress, or a robe. We never see the Weasley children go without food and they are always clothed. Perhaps they aren't in the designer, latest fashions, but they are clothed and they get the things they need. Molly and Arthur don't refuse to buy Ron a new wand in CoS. He never asks them. We know that Ron has enough allowance to where he could have bought himself a new book, but spent the money on Dungbombs (Fantastic Beasts) Time for Ron to learn the value of a knut. Darrin From kemp at arcom.com.au Wed Jun 4 23:37:50 2003 From: kemp at arcom.com.au (pickle_jimmy) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 23:37:50 -0000 Subject: MAGIC DISWASHER, Dumbledore Dead, Pensieve, Head Boys and duty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59344 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Grey Wolf" wrote: > Pickle Jimmy wrote: > > Dumbledore will be there until the end (MAGIC DISHWASHER) - others > > will drop like flies, but from what we have so far, JK is a better > > author than to make such an "obvious" move. > > > > Just my opinion > > > > Pickle Jimmy > > Err... I'm afraid, Pickle Jimmy, that you're putting ideas into MAGIC > DISHWASHER that simply are not there. For the record, and to prevent > people from missinterpreting MD even more, MD *does not* say that > Dumbledore will live until the end of the books. It does not say he > will not, either. Because MD does not try to predict the future plots > of the books, just to explain what has been going on behind the scenes > so far. Pickle Jimmy again: Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that the MD meant that Dumbledore couldn't die... what I meant (and probably could have said more clearly) is that it is *my* belief that Dumbledore will be there until the end MAGIC DISHWASHERing - or directing the show (alive and well) until the end. My arguement wasn't that if he dies he couldn't MD - because, in my previous post, I parallelled Dumbledore with Obi Wan (who died and still directed Luke from the grave) and Gandalf (who "died" and came back to aid Frodo's quest). What I was saying is that *I* don't think JK will use the "Death of a Mentor" plot in the series as it has been done. I could be wrong (and am the first to admit I have been before), and I appologise if I lead anyone astray with my MD statement. Cheers Pickle Jimmy From gopotter2004 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 01:26:27 2003 From: gopotter2004 at yahoo.com (gopotter2004) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 01:26:27 -0000 Subject: Molly and the Day Job (Was Ron, Molly and Those Robes) In-Reply-To: <002b01c32ab5$73cd7e00$65570043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59345 Eric Oppen wrote: >As for time, now that her > youngest is off to school, she isn't being run ragged at home--- would it be > _that_ much trouble to do some sewing, in between knitting maroon sweaters > for Ickle Ronniekins? Maybe Arthur's next acquisition of a Muggle > thingamabob might be a second-hand sewing machine, and Molly could surprise > Ron with a set of beautiful maroon dress robes in his exact size. (Although > I would think, myself, that dark blue or dark green would look better on a > redhead, she apparently thinks differently Now then. On to a completely different point. I'm highly suspicious of our dear mother!Molly. I think there must be something she does, other than blunder around an empty house hold. Now, I haven't re- read GoF yet, so there might be canon in there that I have mentally blocked. But really, any witch with a solid Hogwarts education doesn't seem like she would be content at home doing basic things... Can you imagine Hermione sitting idly at home? I can't even see Lavender keeping a wizard house and not doing other things. We know Dumbledore trusts her. He's likely to give her something to do from now on. What I want to know is what she's been doing for the last three years!! Any thoughts? Canon to make me look dumb? Becky, who is slightly perturbed. From kristen at sanderson-web.com Thu Jun 5 01:42:37 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (GKJPO) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 01:42:37 -0000 Subject: The Death of Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59346 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "shinesse" wrote: > Hi all. I am just your everyday lurker throwing in my opinions. Well > here it goes. > > Kristen wrote: > series. After all, Dobby's death would certainly sadden Harry (do > you think the Elf protection on death would be stronger than his > mothers?), but not really cause him to rise above." > > Now I say all that to say this. Sure it won't be meatier if a small > character but I don't think it would be any less meaningful to Harry > or us as the reader. For arguments sake let's say it is Dobby. Just > because is a secondary character doesn't mean that Harry won't be > affected by his death. It has been shown that Harry is a very > compassionate person. He hardly knew Cedric and his death affected > him. I think that at this point Harry would feel any death is > senseless and would feel that it was somewhat his fault. Making him > want to fight Voldie even more to stop things from getting out of > hand. To stop him before he had a chance to kill DD, Hermione, Ron > or any other important character. > Sorry, didn't mean to imply that Harry wouldn't be affected by or sensitive to a death like Dobbys. Just that Dobby is not a parental or mentor figure to Harry. A death like Dumbledore, Sirius, Lupin (maybe), Hagrid or a Weasley would really affect Harry in a life altering way because they are all part of an extended family of his own making. Deaths of any of these people would cause him to either fall apart or rise above. I believe before the end of the series, at least one of the people listed will die. In OotP? Don't know. I've been really thinking about this Dobby idea since my first post (shooting it down). Some facts on this: Dobby is a house elf and we know there is a rabid house elf in this book (presumably Winky). That means, Dobby may feel obligated to take a more active role in protecting Harry. Also, Dobby has strong magical capabilities, he also has green eyes. We've heard rumors on how Harry's green eyes have extra powers. Could this be something already there or something passed by Dobby? Could Dobby be the one to train Harry on this feature? Could he possibly pass some powers to Harry on his death? Hmmm... Counting down by reading a chapter of GoF a night. Kristen From Malady579 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 02:26:57 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 02:26:57 -0000 Subject: MAGIC DISWASHER and Dumbledore Dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59347 Grey Wolf wrote: >Err... I'm afraid, Pickle Jimmy, that you're putting ideas into MAGIC >DISHWASHER that simply are not there. For the record, and to prevent >people from missinterpreting MD even more, MD *does not* say that >Dumbledore will live until the end of the books. It does not say he >will not, either. Because MD does not try to predict the future plots >of the books, just to explain what has been going on behind the >scenes so far. Gee, Grey. You give this speech so much you must cut and paste it from Word. :P No, it does not predict the future. -but- >From the premises set out in the theory, one might want to try to. And I see not harm in that. MD as a theory is very well defined...that is if you ever type that mega-MD post. :D Ok, ruffled the fur of The Wolf long enough. On to Pickle Jimmy's wondering. > Pickle Jimmy again: > Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that the MD meant that Dumbledore > couldn't die... what I meant (and probably could have said more > clearly) is that it is *my* belief that Dumbledore will be there > until the end MAGIC DISHWASHERing - or directing the show (alive and > well) until the end. He could be. As of right now, he definately has all the strings of it in his hands, but it seems to me he is giving Harry more of a foundation to not need Dumbledore as much. After all, isn't that what an education is for? To make those who are weaker stronger? But is your theory really dependent on MD? I think it isn't, but if you look at your theory through MD, then you do have to assume Dumbledore will make provisions. If what he is really planning for is his own death, then he will want to continue what he has dedicated his many years too. The education and preparing of Harry Potter for that day to defeat the evil upon their land. Hehe....sorry. Getting into the epic wording. > What I was saying is that *I* don't think > JK will use the "Death of a Mentor" plot in the series as it has > been done. Maybe. Let's say she does. Let's say, she had Dumbledore walk up to Voldemort in front of our young hero, as Obiwan and Gandalf did, and seemedly "die" and make our young hero feel ever so alone and thus take up the gauntlet of his fallen master and defeat the thing that destroyed his youth and ideal life. Eh...it would be ok. Epic. Grand. Fitting. I am sure Dumbledore would find some way, he is a powerful wizard, to still influence Harry beyond the grave. He has to bridge the Snape and Harry gap they so carefully constructed (possible). Place a successor headmaster that will allow Harry the same freedoms that Dumbledore does to wander at will (McGonagall would turn a blind eye...she seems to have so far). Leave a few body guards to watch Harry's back (Lupin, Black, Weasleys). Keep Harry surrounded by people that love him and will tend to his needs as a human being (Weasleys and Ron and Hermione). Hmmm...Dumbledore has all that. Maybe he can leave it all. I guess I must wonder. *Must* he? Must Dumbledore do that? He does not have to you know. And I think that is what you are debating. JKR has the outlet, but will she go for it? I hope not. It is a bit trite, but then again being betrayed by a best friend is trite, yet she managed to make it fascinating and chilling. > I could be wrong (and am the first to admit I have been before), and > I appologise if I lead anyone astray with my MD statement. Oh that is ok. Grey just wanted to clarify the theory. It is so menacing it is hard for anyone, and that includes MDDT, to keep tabs on all its many sub theories. We are hoping to remedy that. Soon. Granted it *must* be soon. OoP is three weeks away. :D Melody From regbait at desertzephyr.com Wed Jun 4 22:40:57 2003 From: regbait at desertzephyr.com (breeze_of_zephyr) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 22:40:57 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's wand restored/Contacting parents In-Reply-To: <20030423.093453.-483067.1.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59348 > Faith wrote: > But now that it's been put to rest exactly what happened, and that Hadrig > wasn't responsible, shouldn't he have had his name cleared, and wand > restored? today! JKR stated in an interview that Hagrid's name was fully restored and that he was allowed to do magic; however, she also said that since he never finished his training he would never be as powerful or as polished as a "fully trained" wizard. I believe I found that interview through the HP Lexicon. -Steve From regbait at desertzephyr.com Wed Jun 4 22:45:04 2003 From: regbait at desertzephyr.com (breeze_of_zephyr) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 22:45:04 -0000 Subject: Letting People Know About Sirius/Pettigrew (Was: Re: Contacting parents) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59349 I've seen a lot of speculation on why Harry & Company can't be more open about the innocence of Sirius Black. The simplest explanation is that they want to, pardon the pun, let the sleeping dogs lie. Right now, no one is really paying much attention to Harry's movements, except for Voldemort. However, if Harry would start actively talking about Sirius' innocence, some bright ministry offical would think that he was just "confunded" and put him under surveilence - and nab Sirius when he came to visit. -Steve From jojosrs24 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 23:44:43 2003 From: jojosrs24 at yahoo.com (jojosrs24) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 23:44:43 -0000 Subject: James' Job/Dark Mark/ Sirius' Job Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59350 Hello, I'm new here, so I apologise if this has already been brought up. I've been rereading GOF lately, of course, and been wondering about James' and Sirius' professions. (I refuse to call them Marauders since we have no evidence that they ever called themselves that; the map said The Marauder's Map, as in singular, and I always thought it was for whoever was using the map) I've heard from several people that they think that Sirius was an Auror, but I think this is highly improbable. I think it would have been a much bigger deal if an Auror was found guilty of being Voldemort's "right hand man" and betraying his friends. Also, Sirius didn't have a clue as to what Karkaroff was showing Snape on his arm, which I would think that the fact that all DEs have the Mark on their arm would be common knowledge. Of course, it may not be, because all the Ministry would have to do is check the suspect's arm to see if they were a Death Eater or not. So did the Mark truly fade when Voldemort was away? All I remember is that Karkaroff was saying the Mark had been getting clearer all year (GOF; don't have my book, so I don't remember the exact place). Sorry for getting off track. I think it is a possibility that James was an Auror, since Sirius seemed to know some things about them (Aurors given the okay to use Unforgivables on Death Eaters, them killing Rosier and Wilkes). Now, I know that also may be common knowledge, but I could see James telling Sirius these things if he was an Auror. How much does an Auror pay, since we know that James didn't need a high paying job? I apologise for the rambling of this post, but I just had so many new things that came into my mind while typing. Joanna From gundum_gurl700 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 01:43:49 2003 From: gundum_gurl700 at yahoo.com (Leslie Douglas) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 18:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dursley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030605014349.47164.qmail@web9402.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59351 --- opoptionspinkrote: > If the DuDursley dislike the Potter's as much as it > seems why did > they take Harry in? Why not just send him to an > orphanage as > suggested by Aunt Marge in PoPoA No one really knows (yet) why the Dursleys didn't leave Harry at an orphanage. In all that we know of them from cannon it seemed like the first thing to do. But I can only think of one thing that would prevent the Dursleys from dumping Harry at an orphanage: Dumbledore letter. In first chapter of PS/SS Dumbledore leaves Harry on the front step of Privet Drive with a letter. Now, we don't know what happened to it (I support the creaky stair theory but something obviously scared the Dursleys into keeping Harry. Cheers Leslie __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From Missybedell at netzero.com Thu Jun 5 02:27:26 2003 From: Missybedell at netzero.com (mrsmabd) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 02:27:26 -0000 Subject: The Death of Book 5 In-Reply-To: <20030604175640.23581.qmail@web21408.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59352 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Milica Meili Well, these are some of my thoughts. Hope they are acceptable. I think it is a possibility that Neville may die but if he does I think it will be towards the end of the book because I think JKR has more planned for him. We know his parents were aurors and that they are in Saint Mungos becasue they have lost their minds from being tortured. I think Neville knows some things and that he had a memory charm put on him thus damaging his memory and making him the super forgetful Neville we see in the books. "mrsmabd" From htfulcher at comcast.net Thu Jun 5 04:57:20 2003 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 04:57:20 -0000 Subject: The Purpose of the Weasleys (was; Saving every Sickle) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59353 rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > shagufta_naazpk2000 at y... writes: > > I assume you mean Scabbers. But Ron is still disparaging of Pig, >who is Ron's alone, and was a gift. One of the other posters was >quite upset about this, since it shows a streak of ingratitude in Ron's constant whining. Ron is like a lot of teenage/slightly pre-teenage boys. He's from a larger family, has picked up on the 'we're not too well off financially' motif of the family, and attempts to react in a 'mature' manner by being cynical. It's one of his most endearing qualities. Ron is dealing with a true frustration as well as the incipient drive to move outside his expected mediocrity (a la his family's status in the WW), compounded by the fact that his best friend is the most famous wizard of the age, and his would-be girl friend is the smartst witch of her generation. What Ron needs is to bask in the glow of his own glory for a while, which may come in OoP, eh? MarEphraim From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 05:25:16 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 05:25:16 -0000 Subject: "Life-Debt" Gripe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59354 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jesta Hijinx" wrote: > While at work today, I thought of something I've been meaning to post to > this list for a while: > > I see relatively frequent, almost casual references to "life debts" > between characters. ...edited... > > Yet nowhere does the phrase actually appear in canon... > > ...edited... > > Any thoughts? > > Felinia Beauclerc bboy_mn: Unless I misunderstand the question, and the is definitely possible, the term 'life debt' comes from fandom. Since we are all familiar with the story and the subject, it has become a short hand way of referring to this 'life debt' when we discuss it. Sorry if I missed the point. bboy_mn From distractedone at comcast.net Thu Jun 5 06:21:18 2003 From: distractedone at comcast.net (Merlin) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 02:21:18 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quote Source (The Death of Book 5) References: Message-ID: <00b201c32b2a$ae2fe0e0$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59355 >> Merlin: >> J.K.R. has already stated that the character will not be one of the >> three main characters of Harry Ron or Hermione, but she did say that >> the person has been around since the first book and that they were a >> fan of Harry's. > > > To which stickbook replied: > Hi! > > Can you provide your source? > > No one on the list seems to have found an accurate source of the > infamous "fan of Harry's will die" quote. The running concensus is > that it's a fake, the result of a journalistic liberty. > > We'd love to be proved wrong, though! > > Cheers! I read it on The Leaky Cauldron website. I am not sure which date it was from and I don't have time to go back through all the archives on that site right now. Although I can guarantee you that anything written as news on that site is varified before it is posted. If you would like to check it out it is http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/ . I personally have not found a better website for Harry Potter information. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 08:28:58 2003 From: shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com (viewsonpotter) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 08:28:58 -0000 Subject: Wizarding Photos and Paintings(OT) In-Reply-To: <007e01c32496$72a7cdc0$0900a8c0@tubs.de.rz.tubs.de> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59356 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolin M?nkemeyer wrote: > Yes, its right that people fear Photographs could take bits of their souls in some cultures, e.g. some muslims do. Sorry for being OT but just wanted to add my two knuts. Muslims do not believe that photographs capture a bit of the soul. However orthodox Muslims do frown on reproduction of the human image in any form (sculpture, painting, etc) as they feel it symbolises idol worship Once again, sorry to be OT Shaggy From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 01:38:56 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 01:38:56 -0000 Subject: Intrinsically Good magic, and motives over ends (Fwd from OTC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59357 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "abigailnus" wrote: > I think I have an example that illustrates Amy's point. Two weeks > ago I took my mother's car to the bank where I ran a few errands. My > bank is right near a very good bakery (which is why I try not to go to > the bank more than absolutely necessary) and upon leaving, I decided > to go into this bakery and buy some cookies - just for my brother, of > course! I then got in my mother's car and, while trying to make a left > turn, didn't yield the right of way to a car coming from my right, and > we collided - I'm fine, the other driver's fine, but I put a dent his car. > > Now, if I hadn't gone into the bakery, I would have arrived at the left > turn a few minutes earlier, and the driver I ran into wouldn't have been > there. It's entirely possible that I still would have had an accident, > maybe even a worse one. Any number of things could have happened > as a result of my leaving the area without being delayed by either pastry > or exchanging insurance details, but they didn't. The fact remains that > my accident is a consequence of my choice to go into the bakery. It is > also a consequence of my choice to go to the bank, of the fact that my > mother lets me drive her car, of the fact that I was born 22 years ago, > and of the fact that I didn't yield the right of way. Only that last choice > makes the accident my fault, but all the other choices (made by myself > and others) led up to it. > > By the same token, Lily's choice to sacrifice herself for Harry set in > motion a chain of events which led to many results. One of those > results was that Cedric Diggory was in the position to be killed by > Voldemort at the end of GoF. His actual death was a choice made by > Voldemort and Wormtail, and they carry the blame for it, but it is > still a consequence of Lily's choice 15 years earlier. > > Abigail I tink that the roup is being too deterministic, to "Newtonian", in their analyses of the what-ifs. I think you can make a case that there is a good measure of quantum physics-like properties in all these "shoulda-woulda-coulda" scenarios, including something akin to Heisenberg's uncertainty princile. It is not necessarily so that the choice to buy the pastry as a good deed in any way altered the destiny of the automobile paths. The actual outcome may have been floating around in quantum heaven until it became concret, with no causality involved. The "good deed" of buying the pasty stands on its own, unalloyed by any blame for the ensuing fender bender. Haggridd From leperockon at aol.com Thu Jun 5 04:29:20 2003 From: leperockon at aol.com (taylorlynzie) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 04:29:20 -0000 Subject: Much Ado About Money Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59358 Lately the main topic of interest on these boards has been about the Weasley's and their "money situation" and I decided to jump on the bandwagon. Most people are leaning in one of two extremes: [1]-- That the Weasley's are wrong for spending money on a trip to Egypt, ect ect. or [2]-- The Weasley's were correct in spending money on a trip to Egypt, ect ect. In my opinion I honestly do not think that this trip to Egypt was bad, in fact I think it was something good. Sure the Weasley's are tight on money-- even poor but they are in no way in desperate poverty, either. There is always food on their plates and clothes on their backs. Seeing as there was money for these nessessities- though not always in the most abundant supply- a nice Holiday to Egypt seems in tow. We also do not know all the details of the trip. Considering that Bill works there they were probably able to get room and board for free, or considerably cheaper then if they had gone there with no connections. This trip was probably a great moral booster, and a chance for the family to get together and spend some good quality time together, outside of the home. Arthur and Weasley don't see their children for 10 monthes of the year, 9 1/2 if they come home for Christmas and we all know how much that happens. The Weasley's are without a doubt in a bit of a tight spot as far as money is concerned but that does not mean that they aren't entitled to a family holiday if the oppurtunity is available. Also just because it says that the Weasley's are poor doesn't mean that they aren't able to pay for everything. Lots of people buy things second hand in order to save money, and having 7 kids would defintly qualify you for saving money. The incident in GoF that everyone discusses is Ron and Mrs Weasleys little incident about the maroon dress robes. To be honest, to me it sounds a bit like typical Ron. He has always been a bit of the pouter type, this is all with fairly good reason considering that he is the second youngest out of 7 and is probably quite accustomed to pouting in order to get something that he wants, this also explains his quick temper and extreme sense of loyalty. Of course he wouldn't like the robes, they were maroon, they had ruffles, and lastly and prehaps most importantly they were bought second-hand. I think that the reason why Ron is so touchy about this subject is most likely the fact that his best friend is Harry Potter and his best friend has quite a bit of money to spend as he wishes, he doesn't want Harry to hear they his mum had to buy his robes at a second hand shop. They could be almost exactly like Harrys except perhaps maroon and bought in a second hand shop and he would've made a big deal because they were maroon but it was really because of the second hand quality. Also people say that Mrs Weasley was at fault because she could've severed off the lace or she could've magically made them "better" or knitted Ron robes specially for him. She wouldn't have time! Think about this people, she has 7 children a husband, and two other people in her house (Harry and Hermione) to worry about, she is extremely busy. I can't really see her having time to just sit down and knit a dress robe for Ron, which of course he would have to have one knitted for Fred and George as well because she can't do it for just one. True she knits everyone sweaters and socks for Christmas but thi sis when everyone is off at school and she is not as busy as she would be. As for the severing charm she probably wasn't thinking about it. I don't think it was an attempt to punish Ron for anything. Buying these second hand isn't a crime and Ron is merely being the immature 15 year-old boy that he is. Of course he isn't going to get it, all of the books have showed that Ron's canon character is a bit on the immature side, personally I don't see how this surprised some people. I am not saying that the other people are wrong, perhaps the Weasley's have been careless in their spendings. We won't really know until if/when JKR tells us what exactly is the finanical situation for the Weasleys. It could be that they are so povered that they shouldn't be spending money on lavish trips, or it could also be that they can get by okay on going a bit sparingly on things and still able to take trips. Only time will tell, but personally I believe that the Weasleys are not as desperate as many people think, they are merely a bit stretched for money oweing to the fact of having so many children. Tay :D From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 11:32:19 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 11:32:19 -0000 Subject: Ron, Molly and Those Robes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59359 Eric Oppen wrote: When you've got four kids in boarding school, and books to buy for them for five years into the future, spending a windfall on a trip to Egypt strikes me as slightly insane.> jenny from ravenclaw wrote: It does seem insane, but it is understandable. As others have already pointed out, it is nice to create memories for the kids and to take advantage of the opportunity to travel. My boyfriend and I are taking a vacation together this summer, even though we definitely can't afford it. We've never been away together and we've lived together for six years. We deserve it, and I think the Weasleys deserved a chance to get away, see some sights and spend time together as a family. Hello all, Fred Waldrop here: While I agree that it is great to take vacations, exspecially family vacations, but common since needs to be considered. (page 8, PoA US) "A delighted Mr Weasley told the Daily Prophet, we will be spending the gold on a holiday in Egypy.... The Weasley family will be spending a month in Egypt..." Why spend an entire month in Egypt? Wouldn't it seem more prudent, not to mention smarter to stay, oh, 2 weeks? That way you have a nice vaction and still have half the money left to buy school supplies and robes. Fred From rfa82 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 10:39:39 2003 From: rfa82 at yahoo.com (rfa82) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 10:39:39 -0000 Subject: The word "order", was: Re: Hopes for Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59360 Chuck wrote: PS - My guess is that "Order of the Phoenix" is not a rank or organization. "Order" can also mean "Command." And there was a lot of Phoenix song at the end of book 4. Maybe Fawkes was "Ordering" the wands to do something. Then Alice wrote: I used to think that, but then the general internet opinion overwhelmed me. An interesting addition, though: Although the book hasn't even been released, we Hungarian readers have a promise from the publisher that the book will be out in Hungrian by Christmas, with the title "Harry Potter es a Fonix Rendje", in which "Rend" means Order as in some sort of organisation, and NOT Order as in Command, which would be "Parancs". I was wondering whether the publisher was just assuming that this was the meaning intended, or whether they were tipped off. I really can't see them contacting Bloomsbury to ask and really can't see Bloomsbury answering the question, but on the other hand it would be rather a fat assumption to make otherwise, wouldn't it? It'd be quite embarassing for them if they turned out to be wrong. The marketing campaign is in full swing already, after all, featuring this title. And now I write: The same thing applies to the Norwegian title, which has been advertised as being "Harry Potter og F?niksordenen", not "Harry Potter og F?niksordren". So what's the deal here? Rune From qmasters at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 11:03:12 2003 From: qmasters at yahoo.com (Quimby Masters) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 11:03:12 -0000 Subject: Dursley's In-Reply-To: <20030605014349.47164.qmail@web9402.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59361 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Leslie Douglas wrote: > --- opoptionspinkrote: > > If the DuDursley dislike the Potter's as much as it > > seems why did > > they take Harry in? Why not just send him to an > > orphanage as > > suggested by Aunt Marge in PoPoA > I've wondered if it wasn't, at least in part, because of the Dursley's intense need to be liked. Taking in an orphan boy (and complaining about how difficult he is) is an easy way to gain sympathy. I suppose they could've sent him to an orphanage and tried to cover it up, but the chance of someone finding out would probably be too big a risk. I'm sorry, I don't have my book with me, but doesn't it say in PS that Aunt Petunia discovered the baby when she went to pick up the milk? If that's the case, who knows who already saw the baby? Certainly the milkman, and wouldn't he ask questions if he didn't see an extra child? We know Aunt Petunia is a gossip, and gossips often think other people are talking about them as often as they are talking about other people. Think of the horror she'd feel if she thought her neighbors were talking about her dumping a child at an orphanage. On the other hand, think of the pleasure she'd feel if she thought her neighbors were talking about the wonderful charity she'd shown by taking this child into her home. Just my 2 knuts. Quimby From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 11:58:17 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 11:58:17 -0000 Subject: "Life-Debt" Gripe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59362 Felinia Beauclerc wrote: I see relatively frequent, almost casual references to "life debts" between characters. Yet nowhere does the phrase actually appear in canon that I know of. Anyone got a cite they care to share? Now me ~Phyllis: This quote from Ch. 17 of PS doesn't put the two words "life" and "debt" together, but it's definitely implied: Dumbledore to Harry: "And then, your father did something Snape could never forgive. He saved his life. Professor Snape couldn't bear being in your father's debt..." Hello all, Fred Waldrop here: There is another quote I remembered, (page 427, PoA US) "Pettigrew owes his life to you. You have sent Voldemort a deputy who is in your debt... When one wizard saves another wizards life, it creates a certian bond between them... and I'm much mistaken if Voldemort wants his servant in the debt to Harry Potter." Fred From distractedone at comcast.net Thu Jun 5 12:22:52 2003 From: distractedone at comcast.net (Merlin) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 08:22:52 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron, Molly and Those Robes References: Message-ID: <010801c32b5d$2fd2e890$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59363 Fred asked: > Why spend an entire month in Egypt? Wouldn't it seem more prudent, > not to mention smarter to stay, oh, 2 weeks? That way you have a nice > vaction and still have half the money left to buy school supplies and > robes. I'm sure the length of time probably didn't make that much of a difference since they were most likely staying with their son Bill while in Egypt anyways. This would make the whole trip a heck of a lot cheaper, especially if they still at in at Bill's and instead of restraunts while there. Merlin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From linlou43 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 12:42:16 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 12:42:16 -0000 Subject: Ron, Molly and Those Robes In-Reply-To: <010801c32b5d$2fd2e890$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59364 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Merlin wrote: > Fred asked: > > > Why spend an entire month in Egypt? Wouldn't it seem more prudent, > > not to mention smarter to stay, oh, 2 weeks? That way you have a nice > > vaction and still have half the money left to buy school supplies and > > robes. Merlin replied: > I'm sure the length of time probably didn't make that much of a difference since they were most likely staying with their son Bill while in Egypt anyways. This would make the whole trip a heck of a lot cheaper, especially if they still at in at Bill's and instead of restraunts while there. Now me: The referance to where the family stayed got me thinking about how they got to Egypt. I think we can assume that they didn't catch a flight at Heathrow. Did they travel by flu powder? Is there, perhaps, some kind of Wizard travel industry which utilizes portkeys. If they traveled by flu powder the costs involved would have been minimal. If the portkey option was used, there may have been certain costs involved- sort of like buying an airline ticket. I would think this would directly relate to how much the Weasleys spent on the trip. Anyone that travels knows that transportation can be a huge part of the budget for a trip. Of course, if there is such an industry using portkeys it accentuates the need for the time constraints as discussed in the portkey thread. I also had one other thought regarding the cost of the trip. Ron's letter tells Harry that "most of" the lottery winnings were gone on the trip, but would Ron necessarily have the information to make that determination? IMO, no. But then again I could be wrong. -Linda From vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be Thu Jun 5 12:14:54 2003 From: vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be (vicky_gwosdz) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 12:14:54 -0000 Subject: The word "order", was: Re: Hopes for Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59365 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rfa82" wrote: > Chuck wrote: > > PS - My guess is that "Order of the Phoenix" is not a rank or > organization. "Order" can also mean "Command." And there was a lot > of Phoenix song at the end of book 4. Maybe Fawkes was "Ordering" > the wands to do something. > > Then Alice wrote: > > I used to think that, but then the general internet opinion > overwhelmed me. An interesting addition, though: > > Although the book hasn't even been released, we Hungarian readers have > a promise from the publisher that the book will be out in Hungrian by > Christmas, with the title "Harry Potter es a Fonix Rendje", in which > "Rend" means Order as in some sort of organisation, and NOT Order as > in Command, which would be "Parancs". I was wondering whether the > publisher was just assuming that this was the meaning intended, or > whether they were tipped off. I really can't see them contacting > Bloomsbury to ask and really can't see Bloomsbury answering the > question, but on the other hand it would be rather a fat assumption to > make otherwise, wouldn't it? It'd be quite embarassing for them if > they turned out to be wrong. The marketing campaign is in full swing > already, after all, featuring this title. > > And now I write: > > The same thing applies to the Norwegian title, which has been > advertised as being "Harry Potter og F?niksordenen", not "Harry > Potter og F?niksordren". So what's the deal here? > > Rune Me: Same applies for the Dutch version, which will probably be released the end of the year. The translation uses the word "Orde" which means "Organisation" and not the word "Opdracht" or "Roep" which would mean command. My 2 cts, Vicky From paulined at optushome.com.au Thu Jun 5 12:05:24 2003 From: paulined at optushome.com.au (Pauline) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 22:05:24 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron, Molly and Those Robes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20030605220524.01474530@10.0.0.3> No: HPFGUIDX 59366 Fred Waldrop wrote: > Why spend an entire month in Egypt? Wouldn't it seem more prudent, > not to mention smarter to stay, oh, 2 weeks? That way you have a nice > vaction and still have half the money left to buy school supplies and > robes. > Fred I agree. I think the Weasleys are the "type" to spend whatever money they get when they get it. Money will always seem to flitter through their fingers. Which seems to be part of the point JKR is trying to make. I hope Fred and George use the winnings Harry gave them with some business sense. Love Pauline (only 16 more days!!) From vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be Thu Jun 5 12:09:48 2003 From: vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be (vicky_gwosdz) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 12:09:48 -0000 Subject: Dursley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59367 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Quimby Masters" wrote: On the other hand, think of the > pleasure she'd feel if she thought her neighbors were talking about > the wonderful charity she'd shown by taking this child into her home. > > Just my 2 knuts. > > Quimby I'm sorry but I don't really agree with this "taking in an orphan to look good". Imagine that you knew a couple that had a son of its own and took in an orphan nephew. Then imagine that the own son always had new expensive clothes, the best toys and looked well fed and properly taken care of. At the same time the nephew was a small skinny boy, who clearly got beaten around by his nephew, with a sloppy haircut (the Dursleys can't change this, but nobody knows that) and who is always wearing worn-out, clearly second hand clothes, who has broken glasses and never any toys. Imagine what the people would say: Poor little boy, he is so neglegted... No, I stick with my theory that DD did or said something to assure the Dursleys to take care of Harry. My 2 cts, Vicky From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jun 5 13:44:33 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 13:44:33 -0000 Subject: Ron, Molly and Those Robes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59368 > Hello all, Fred Waldrop here: > While I agree that it is great to take vacations, exspecially family > vacations, but common since needs to be considered. > (page 8, PoA US) "A delighted Mr Weasley told the Daily Prophet, we > will be spending the gold on a holiday in Egypy.... The Weasley > family will be spending a month in Egypt..." > > Why spend an entire month in Egypt? < Mr. Weasley had just been through an inquiry at work, not to mention what Ginny had been through. They may have wanted to get away from prying questions. Or maybe, perish the thought, Mr. Weasley was on administrative leave. Harry remarks in GoF that the elder Weasleys also wear shabby robes most of the time. Clothes just aren't a priority. Also, we don't know the expense breakdown. If the main cost of travelling to Egypt is transportation, a two week trip wouldn't have cost much less. They may have been staying with some of those numerous Weasley relations and the cost of living could be lower, in which case they wouldn't have saved any money at all by coming back sooner. Anyway, do you think Ron's deathbed regret will be, "I wish I'd had nicer robes at Hogwarts?" Pippin From naama_gat at hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 14:13:11 2003 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 14:13:11 -0000 Subject: Intrinsically Good (and evil) magic (Fwd from OTC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59369 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David" wrote: > > Part of the difficulty of this topic is the meaning of good and > evil. If by 'intrinsically' good we mean that something is good > despite the bad motive that uses it (think of the doctrine of the > efficacy of the sacraments despite the quality of priests), or that > it can't be used unless the motive is good (think of the Grail), > then we are forced to think in terms of consequences. I think a way to unravel this is to analyse the Unforgivable curses as they are defined in the WW. The fact that using an Unforgivabel curse earns the person a life term in Azkaban - regardless of the *motive* - shows that they are considered as completely evil in some intrinsic way. We don't know exactly in what way, but since Crouch permitted their use in some cases, I don't think the evilness is due to a corrupting influence on the user. I also don't think that it is exactly a matter of their influence on the victim. Take Imperio for instance. If it's about harm, why is it unforgivable then, when curses that cause worse damage, and may kill a person, are not? I think that their intrinsic evilness is more "intrinsic" than that.I think that the Unforgivables are considered intrinsically evil because what they do is considered intrinsically evil - untimely death, unnecessary pain and total mental subjugation. (I'm not arguing that these are indeed the three ultimate evils, just that that's the case for the WW.) But, you ask, there are other curses that can kill and cause pain, so why are only these three considered unforgivable? Intuitively, it feels right that they should be, but why? Well, say you want to kill someone. You pick a heavy rock and you bash his head in. Your immediate act, what you actually did, was to make a big hole in his head. It is the damage caused by the hole that kills him. And so on - if you give somone poison, it is the damage caused by the poison that makes the person die. The same is true if you use magic to kill - death potions, blasting spells, running hot lead into the bones, whatever. The killing is always mediated. But in Avada Kedavra the killing is immediate. Death is created, rather than caused. The same is true for Crucio. It makes pain, rather than causes pain. >From this, I think, we can learn what might be considered intrinsically good magic in the WW. It should parallel the intrinsically evil, i.e., it should bring about something that is intrinsically good without mediation. For instance, if happiness were considered intrinsically good, then Felicio would be intrinsically good magic. The things is, I doubt that JKR holds that a spell that makes you feel happy with no reason is really a very good thing. It rather resembles drugs, doesn't it? The same goes for other good feelings, like pleasure or well-being. A hint of that we can see in that Imperio actually causes a sense of well-being, and it is definitely seen as highly dangerous and bad. Well then, what about a charm that makes people good (morally good, I mean)? What could be better than a spell by which Voldemort can be made good? But that won't wash, of course, because for JKR freedom of will and choice are crucial to morality ("it is our choices, Harry ..."). So, how about magic that confers Life? A spell that brings life to the dead, or immortal life to the living? But ... we know that the first spell doesn't exist (according to Dumbledore), and the second ... well, we've seen what JKR thinks of the second. Health might work, though. (Although, perfect, everlasting health is akin to immortal life, which is a big no no for JKR.) The thing is, from what we see of Madam Pomfrey's work, there simply doesn't exist a Health spell - a spell that makes you healthy no matter what is wrong with you. It seems that for each type of injury or disease you must use different spells, charms, potions. The only thing left that I can think of, is magic that averts evil. I think that magic that *without mediation* averts one of the Unforgivables should be defined as intrinsically good. Only one spell of this type comes to mind - the magic that Lily invoked when she died to save Harry. It didn't protect Harry by making him disappear from the house or becoming invisible, or by harming Voldemort. It made him *intrinsically* immune to Voldemort's Avada Kedavra. So, after this long ramble, I have to agree with Amanda that Lily's sacrifice (or, rather, the magic the sacrifice invoked) is intrinsically good in the WW. Naama From abigailnus at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 14:30:32 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 14:30:32 -0000 Subject: Motives Over Ends (was: Intrinsically good magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59370 Innermurk wrote: > I still cannot agree to your reasoning. > The fact that you failed to yeild is the *only* deciding choice that > casued your accident. Any of the other choices can happen > independantly of that one and no accident would occur. That > particular choice could have occurred on any other corner with the > same results. I think you've just made my point for me. Since I've already exposed myself to 7000 lurkers as a bad driver, let me share a little more. This isn't the first time I've failed to yield the right of way on a left turn. I've even run a few yellow lights in my day. And yet, in three years that I've been driving, this is the only time I've ever been in an accident. If my choice not to yield the right of way was, as you say, the only factor determining whether or not I would be in an accident, then I should have had an accident every time I failed to yield the right of way or ran a yellow light. What you're trying to say, I guess, is that all things being equal, it was only my choice to make a left turn when I had no right to do so that caused the accident, but you're apporaching the situation as a given tableau, and not taking into consideration all the elements that brought it into existance. Once I arrived at the intersection there was indeed only one possibility - I would choose to make the left turn and have an accident, or I wouldn't, and presumably I wouldn't collide with the other driver. However, the situation at the intersection was not created out of whole cloth. It was the result of billions of tiny choices and circumstances that led myself and the other driver on a collision course with each other. I'm a limited human. I can't perceive all the reprecussions of delaying my departure from the shopping center by a few minutes. I can perceive, because I was carefully taught so, that failing to yield the right of way can have disastrous results, which is why my choice to ignore that possible outcome makes the accident my fault. My choice to buy pastry is morally neutral, but it led me to a situation in which I had the opportunity to make a choice not to yield the right of way. But let's forget about buying pastry for a second and go a little bit further back to my choice to go to the bank in the first place. This is also a morally neutral choice - a person can do any number of things in a bank, good or bad. Can there be any doubt that, all other things being equal, had I chosen not to go to the bank that morning, I would not have had that particular accident? The accident, therefore, is a direct result of my choice to go to the bank. Let's go further back, three years, to the day my mother gave me a set of keys to her car and the permission to use it. This is also a morally neutral act. Once again, there is no doubt that, all other things being equal, if I were unable to drive my mother's car, I would not have been in that particular accident. And what about the other driver? He made many choices that morning, including the choice to be in the same area as I was, the choice to get in his car and drive down the same street that I was turning into at the exact moment for me to run into him - all morally neutral choices. And if he hadn't made those choices, I wouldn't have collided with his car. Now, it's possible that if I hadn't gone to the bank, I would have walked to the supermarket and accidentally knocked down an old lady. It's possible that if I didn't have my mother's car, I would have taken a cab and been in a worse accident. It's possible that if the other driver had been somewhere else when the accident was to occur, he would have run over a pedestrian. We have no way of knowing these things, and when I, my mother and the other driver made our choices, we had no way of foreseeing the consequence of the accident, which is why there is no blame attached to those choices. It is only when I arrive at the intersection and choose a course of action to which there is a forseeable negative consequence that the choice becomes evil, and blame is attached. Let's move away from my accident for a minute, and go back about a year to a bus in Jerusalem. Grandma is sitting on the bus with her two grandchildren when a man comes aboard. Grandma doesn't like the look of him, and suspects him of being a suicide bomber. She therefore decides to get off the bus with her grandchildren one stop ahead of her destination, and walk the rest of the way. On their way home, they walk past a supermarket just at the moment at which a suicide bomber blows himself up at the entrance, and are injured. Had they stayed on the bus, they would have been perfectly safe, as the bus passed the supermarket minutes, or even seconds, earlier. Did grandma make the wrong choice? Yes. Was there any way in which she could have perceived that this was the wrong choice? No. Was Grandma's choice a direct cause of her being in the path of a suicide bombing? Yes. Is grandma, or in fact anyone other than the suicide bomber and the people who sent him, responsible for her injuries and those of her grandchildren? Of course not. Will grandma, nevertheless, spend the rest of her life feeling guilty? Probably. So, to return, finally, to the topic of this discussion. Lily chooses to sacrifice her life for her son. The only perceivable consequence as far as she, or in fact any human being, can see is a good one (actully, I've argued that Lily knew that her sacrifice was pointless, and that it is the very fact that she preferred to die rather than watch her son die and live herself that stamped Harry with a mark of the highest kind of love, but that's another discussion entirely). However, one of the many consequences of that act is Cedric Diggory's death. A million other factors go into bringing him to that graveyard where he is at the mercy of Voldemort and Pettigrew. The fact that Harry insisted that they take the cup together. The fact that he became a Triwizard champion. The fact that he was raised to be such an upstanding young man as to be chosen as a Triwizard champion. The fact that he didn't drown in his bathtub when he was 2. What Amy and I are trying to say is that while Cedric's death, in this particular manner, is a result of Lily's choice, it is not her fault. Amy is trying to point out that there are a million consequences to every act, and most of them can't be anticipated. Even the most selfless sacrifice can lead to evil. Haggrid writes: >>I think that the group is being too deterministic, to "Newtonian", in their analyses of the what-ifs. I think you can make a case that there is a good measure of quantum physics-like properties in all these "shoulda-woulda-coulda" scenarios, including something akin to Heisenberg's uncertainty princile. It is not necessarily so that the choice to buy the pastry as a good deed in any way altered the destiny of the automobile paths. The actual outcome may have been floating around in quantum heaven until it became concret, with no causality involved. The "good deed" of buying the pasty stands on its own, unalloyed by any blame for the ensuing fender bender>> As I understand the uncertainty principle, and by no means am I claiming that I do, the claim that any possible consequence is floating about in mid-air can only be made about undetermined events. Once an event has occured, a definitive chain of causality does exist, and it is only our limitations that prevent us from tracking it exactly. In other words, while it is impossible to predict that, had I not bought pastry, I wouldn't have had the same accident (I could have met an old school-friend, for example, and been delayed by talking to him for the same exact amount of time that I would have been delayed at the bakery), once the accident has occured, all other possibilities have collapsed, and the chain of causality points directly to my choice to go into the bakery as one of the steps that led to my accident. I think we've come full-circle here, as this discussion once again has little to do with canon. If either of you want to continue it, may I suggest that we do so on OT-Chatter or in private e-mails? Abigail From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 15:37:15 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 15:37:15 -0000 Subject: James an Auror? and Link to Interview on Clearing Hagrid's Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59371 Joanna (jojosrs24) wrote: > I think it is a possibility that James was an Auror, since Sirius > seemed to know some things about them (Aurors given the okay to use > Unforgivables on Death Eaters, them killing Rosier and Wilkes). Now me: While it's definitely possible that James was an Auror, I don't think it's probable. The job of an Auror is to fight against dark wizards. Barty Crouch Sr. authorized the use of the Unforgivable Curses against suspects, and gave them powers to kill rather than capture. But when Harry re-lives his parents' last moments when faced with a Dementor, we hear James saying to Lily that he'll hold off Voldemort. There's no indication that James tried to kill or to use an Unforgivable Curse against Voldemort. Now it could be that James did try such a curse and failed, and we're just not hearing about this in Harry's recollection (it is a very brief recollection, after all). But I don't think so. I think the reason Sirius knows about Aurors is because he was part of the "old crowd" fighting Voldemort's first reign of terror and probably worked with Aurors during that period. Steve ("breeze_of_zephyr") wrote: > JKR stated in an interview that Hagrid's name was fully restored and > that he was allowed to do magic; however, she also said that since > he never finished his training he would never be as powerful or as > polished as a "fully trained" wizard. Now me: Here's the interview segment: Q: "Since Hagrid's name was cleared in Book 2, will he ever be allowed to do magic openly again?" JKR: "He is allowed. He has been allowed to do magic openly ever since he became a teacher but because he was never fully trained his magic is never going to be what it should be. He is always going to be a bit inept." and the link: http://www.swns.com/vaults/rowling.htm ~Phyllis From meboriqua at aol.com Thu Jun 5 15:42:19 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 15:42:19 -0000 Subject: The Purpose of the Weasleys (was; Saving every Sickle) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59372 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marephraim" wrote: > Ron is like a lot of teenage/slightly pre-teenage boys. He's from a > larger family, has picked up on the 'we're not too well off > financially' motif of the family, and attempts to react in > a 'mature' manner by being cynical. It's one of his most endearing > qualities. Ron is dealing with a true frustration as well as the > incipient drive to move outside his expected mediocrity (a la his > family's status in the WW), compounded by the fact that his best > friend is the most famous wizard of the age, and his would-be girl > friend is the smartst witch of her generation. What Ron needs is to > bask in the glow of his own glory for a while, which may come in > OoP, eh?> It is interesting to me that you find Ron's unhappiness with his family's monetary situation "endearing", because I do not. While I do understand his embarrassment at shabby dress robes and his resentment of people like Harry and Draco who have access to plenty of money, I think his issues go a bit deeper and are more problematic than they seem. Ron brings up his family's situation when it isn't necessary and holds on to his bad feelings a little too long, like on the train to Hogwarts after Draco saw his dress robes draped over Pig's cage. I understand that at the age of 14, families are nothing short of mortifying (I remember being highly embarrassed every time my mom opened her mouth, no matter what she said), but Ron seems to lack respect for the job his parents do. It is commendable that his father works as hard as he does and that he has chosen a lower-ranked position rather than compromise his beliefs or suck up to Fudge. Others have mentioned this, but it is also to be noted that his parents somehow manage to provide for their children the things that they truly need. Not all parents do that. However, it isn't just Ron who is getting mixed signals from his parents regarding their situation. Percy seems to be doubly motivated to do well for himself and wants to rise up in the ranks of the MoM; an increased salary must be at least some of his motivation. Bill has chosen to work for a bank, dealing with money. Fred and George are very motivated to start their own business, which would definitely help them to be independent and could make then rich as well. Ron just doesn't know what to do about his situation yet, so I suppose his frustrations are as much about feeling helpless, as he is too young to work. Either way, Ron needs to find a way to be more content with who he is, or to find a way out of poverty, instead of wallowing, as he now prone to do. As nice as it would be for Ron to have the spotlight (he certainly enjoyed it in PoA and GoF when he was in it), it is an unlikely scenario for him in the long-run and permanently, IMO. Besides, who says he can't do great things quietly? --jenny from ravenclaw ****************************************** From distractedone at comcast.net Thu Jun 5 16:12:56 2003 From: distractedone at comcast.net (Merlin) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 12:12:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron, Molly and Those Robes References: <010801c32b5d$2fd2e890$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> Message-ID: <011601c32b7d$53b65330$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59373 >> Fred asked: >> Why spend an entire month in Egypt? Wouldn't it seem more prudent, >> not to mention smarter to stay, oh, 2 weeks? That way you have a nice >> vaction and still have half the money left to buy school supplies and >> robes. > > Merlin said: > I'm sure the length of time probably didn't make that much of a difference since they were > most likely staying with their son Bill while in Egypt anyways. This would make the whole > trip a heck of a lot cheaper, especially if they still at in at Bill's and instead of > restraunts while there. Oops that was supposed to be still ate in at Bill's instead of restraunts. Merlin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Jun 5 16:45:08 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 09:45:08 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Purpose of the Weasleys (was; Saving every Sickle) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <170164736483.20030605094508@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 59374 Hi, Thursday, June 05, 2003, 8:42:19 AM, jenny_ravenclaw wrote: > Either way, Ron needs to find a way to be more content with who he > is, or to find a way out of poverty, instead of wallowing, as he now > prone to do. Hm, I don't know if it has to do with being a parent, but compared to real kids, Ron is handling things pretty well for his age (imo). He gets angry at the money situation *occasionally*, but seems to get over his anger pretty quickly and doesn't really wallow all that much. In the course of four books, the money issue comes up a few times, but in some posts it sounds as if Ron talks about nothing else besides his family's lack of money. Many people seem to expect Ron to be perfectly mature, rationalizing all his problems and handling them like a much older person. I see that as very unrealistic. In fact, I'm glad not everyone handles things as well as Harry, who has few lapses, but when he does, his feelings are almost overwhelming him. Ron lets his feelings out at much less provocation, which might be healthier than Harry's learned way of keeping his feelings in until he can't anymore. > As nice as it would be for Ron to have the spotlight > (he certainly enjoyed it in PoA and GoF when he was in it), it is an > unlikely scenario for him in the long-run and permanently, IMO. > Besides, who says he can't do great things quietly? I'd say he already has done this many times throughout the books (saving Hermione from the troll, insisting on going with Harry to protect the PS, sacrificing himself in the chess scene, trying to protect Harry from the "grim" and then Sirius...) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 16:50:02 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 16:50:02 -0000 Subject: Did Sirius have a knife? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59375 All this talk of Ron's dress robes and the Severing Charm, combined with some of the recent discussion about WW technology (particularly plumbing) triggered a thought. While I don't have PoA with me right now, I seem to recall that Ron said Sirius had a knife when he (Sirius) showed up in the dormitory, and that the curtains were slashed. I definitely recall that the Fat Lady's painting was slashed, and I assume that Sirius didn't do that with dog claws since he had to be in human form to speak the password. (He could have done it with a spell, I suppose.) Doesn't a knife seem to be a bit of a low-tech weapon for the WW? Am I recalling Sirius's visit to the dormitory correctly? Didn't Sirius have a wand at the Shrieking Shack? Ersatz Harry From petalla at express56.com Thu Jun 5 16:57:29 2003 From: petalla at express56.com (peggybaratto) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 16:57:29 -0000 Subject: James an Auror? and Link to Interview on Clearing Hagrid's Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59376 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phyllis" wrote: > Joanna (jojosrs24) wrote: But when Harry re-lives his parents' last moments when > faced with a Dementor, we hear James saying to Lily that he'll hold > off Voldemort. There's no indication that James tried to kill or to > use an Unforgivable Curse against Voldemort. Now it could be that > James did try such a curse and failed, and we're just not hearing > about this in Harry's recollection (it is a very brief recollection, > after all). But I don't think so. > Do we actually know that who he heard was James? I know Harry believes it was James, but Lupin seemed suprised that Harry thought that he heard Jame's voice. He believed the voice that he heard telling Lily to take Harry and run was his father's, but we don't know if it was. Harry heard Jame's voice in the grave yard sceen, after he came out of the wand. Though there was nothing said about his voice. There was no comaprison made. It could have been James who told Lily to go, but I don't think we can say that for certain. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Peggy From petalla at express56.com Thu Jun 5 17:04:08 2003 From: petalla at express56.com (peggybaratto) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 17:04:08 -0000 Subject: James an Auror? and Link to Interview on Clearing Hagrid's Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59377 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phyllis" wrote: > Joanna (jojosrs24) wrote: But when Harry re-lives his parents' last moments when > faced with a Dementor, we hear James saying to Lily that he'll hold > off Voldemort. There's no indication that James tried to kill or to > use an Unforgivable Curse against Voldemort. Now it could be that > James did try such a curse and failed, and we're just not hearing > about this in Harry's recollection (it is a very brief recollection, > after all). But I don't think so. > ~Phyllis > Do we actually know that who he heard was James? I know Harry believes it was James, but Lupin seemed suprised that Harry thought that he heard Jame's voice. He believed the voice that he heard telling Lily to take Harry and run was his father's, but we don't know if it was. We do know that Harry did hear the voice that belonged to James in the graveyard with Voldemort. James came out of the wand and spoke to Harry. Afterwards we don't hear Harry speaking about his father's voice again. So do we know that both voices matched up? I would like to believe that James was there the night of October 31, and that he died protecting Harry and Lily. I just don't know if we can say that James was the person who tried to tell Lily that Voldemort was coming. ~~~~~~~~~~~~Peggy > From kkearney at students.miami.edu Thu Jun 5 16:53:42 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 16:53:42 -0000 Subject: "Life-Debt" Gripe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59378 Felinia wrote: > While at work today, I thought of something I've been meaning to >post to this list for a while: I see relatively frequent, almost >casual references to "life debts" between characters... >Yet nowhere does the phrase actually appear in canon that I know of. >I ask because while a nice idea, I think that it's a tacit assumption >that might not really hold in the WW on the part of fandom that any >of these characters owe or feel they owe a life debt to another... As several other posters have mentioned, the idea comes from two events: Dumbledore's comment that Snape couldn't stand to be in James' debt, and Dubledore's comment that Voldemort would not want a servant who owed his life to Harry. Since the subject has been raised, I'd like to take a moment to express my dislike for the idea of life-debts in the series. While I admit they exist, I think people have greatly overestimated the importance of such a debt. Some seem to feel that the life-debt is some sort of binding contract, i.e. once a person saves your life, you must return the favor. However, I think the two instances seen in the book can be easily explained without such a concrete debt. First Snape's case. I think it's been shown pretty clearly that Snape did not feel much appreciation for James' actions. In fact, he felt James was acting purely out of self-interest. Snape continued to hate James following the incident. However, in the back of his mind, he always felt just a tiny bit guilty for his hatred, since like it or not, he wouldn't be alive if it weren't for James. As a result, Snape decided he needed to even the ground. This is where it differs, in my mind, from a life debt. Snape did not feel obligated to return the favor due to some moral code of conduct, but chose to do so to ease his own concience. When he finally accomplished this (by saving Harry), he could return to, as Dumbledore stated it, hating James in peace. If Snape had not hated James (if he were a friend or even a stranger), I doubt he would have felt the need to repay him. In Pettigrew's case, I think Dumbledore's comment is a simple statement of fact. Would any Evil Overlord want a servant who owed anything to the enemy? Especially a weak-minded person like Pettigrew? Would it be wise to trust such a person with an important task, when you couldn't be sure if he might be struck by guilt at a crucial moment? Of course not. I doubt Pettigrew has any intention of repaying his debt to Harry. But if Voldemort knows exactly what happenned, he knows Pettigrew's resolve on anything regarding Harry may be questionable. That small possiblilty is enough to make Pettigrew an undesireable servant. -Corinth From linlou43 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 17:35:21 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 17:35:21 -0000 Subject: Did Sirius have a knife? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59379 Ersatz Harry wrote: > Doesn't a knife seem to be a bit of a low-tech weapon for the WW? Am > I recalling Sirius's visit to the dormitory correctly? Didn't Sirius > have a wand at the Shrieking Shack? Me: Actually, considering the time period that the WW seems to be stuck in, using a knife as a weapon seems perfectly fitting. As far as Sirius having a wand in the shreiking shack, no he did not. When HH arrive he has Ron's wand. Later when about to kill Wormtail, he has Snapes. Hope that was a help -Linda From gandharvika at hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 17:44:55 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 17:44:55 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Two Filks *AND* A New Album! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59380 Quidditch Practice (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Good Morning, Good Morning_ by the Beatles *AND* Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, Prongs and Snape (reprise) (A FILK by Amy Z. to the tune of _Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band Reprise_ by the Beatles) Midis are here: http://beatles.sqd.us/ Oliver Wood: Let's practice, let's practice, let's practice Let's practice, let's practice-ah Harry: In the morning, dead to the world, it was early Sleeping in bed, resting my head, someone woke me In the dark stood Oliver Wood He told me to come on, then he was gone Oliver Wood: Let's practice, let's practice, let's practice-ah Harry: Get out of bed, put on my robes, then I go down Oliver waits with my team-mates, I look around Everybody's there, it's before dawn We are tousle haired and start to yawn All of us here are falling asleep Oliver's now giving a tactics speech Wood talks about his plans, brings out his diagrams We are too tired to be inspired, don't give a damn When he's all done we see the sun And then we hear Wood say, "C'mon let's play!" Oliver Wood: Let's practice, let's practice, let's practice-ah Harry: Oliver, man, he is obsessed Wants to put his plans now to the test I see my friends, they're in the seats I wish this would end then I could eat Jump on my broom I start to zoom through the clear skies Feeling the air rush through my hair as we all fly Go through the moves, I start to groove And as all of us play it feels O.K. Gryffindor Quidditch Team: Let's practice, let's practice, let's.... (As the team continues to practice, on the Hogwarts grounds below, Mrs. Norris is prowling. Hagrid's dog, Fang, is barking. A rooster crows from behind Hagrid's hut moments before it is throttled to death by a mysterious figure. There are sheep behind Hagrid's hut, too. A Blast-Ended Skrewt roars from it's hiding place where Hagrid is keeping it caged And the Headless Hunt on horseback with their pack of hell-hounds are galloping through the Forbidden Forest) Enter M, W, P, P, and S, at the close of Prisoner of Azkaban Lupin: ONE! Pettigrew: TWO! Sirius: THREE! James: FOUR! ALL: Were Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, Prongs and Snape Were adding that adult cachet Moony, Wormtail, and the mad brute, Padfoot, Prongs and Snape We all still have a part to play Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, ALL BUT LUPIN: Were booked again for next years gig ALL: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, Prongs and Snape LUPIN: Im off to tea with Mrs. Figg ALL: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, Prongs and Snape! ******************************************************************************** Check This Out!!! With the completion of these two filks we have now finished filking our second Beatles album, "Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band"! I want to thank every artist who helped to make this possible and I dedicate this album to them: CMC, Amy Z, Gryffleravin, Pippin, Tabouli, Judy Nathanson, Jenny and Audra. Note: If you sing some of these filks backwards you will discover clues which point to evidence that JKR is, in fact, dead and all her books are now being written by some fan fiction author who won a contest set up by Bloomsbury. Another Note: If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell ya :)> Yet Another Note: It has become my life's ambition to see every Beatle's tune Potterized (hey, everybody needs a hobby!). If you are interested in seeing the progress we've made so far, e-mail me and ask for my list, "Filking The Beatles". If you would like to help me in my mad endeavor, go for it! I need all the help I can get. So, I invite you now to sit back. Relax. And enjoy... _______________________________________________________________________________ Moody, Wormtail, Padfoot, Prongs and Snape (MWPP & S for short) _______________________________________________________________________________ *SIDE 1* *Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band Moody, Wormtail, Padfoot, Prongs and Snape by Amy Z. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/azkaban.htm#Moony,_Wormtail,_Padfoot,_Prongs,_and_Snape *AND* Captain Ollie's Former Quidditch Team by Gryffleravin http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/wood.htm#Captain_Ollie's_Former_Quidditch_Team *With A Little Help From My Friends With A Little Help From My Friends by Gail B. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/gofire.htm#With_A_Little_Help_From_My_Friends *Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds Moody in Disguise by CMC http://home.att.net/~coriolan/gofire.htm#Moody_in_Disguise *Getting Better All The Time Hating Potter by Gail B. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/59162 *Fixing A Hole Parting Of Ways by Gail B. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/gofire.htm#Parting_Of_Ways *She's Leaving Home They're Being Cruel by Gail B. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/59042 *Being For The Benefit Of Mr. Kite Death Day Party Invitation by Gail B. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/secrets.htm#Death_Day_Party_Invitation *SIDE 2* *Within You Without You The Inner Eye by Gail B. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/azkaban.htm#The_Inner_Eye *When I'm 64 When I'm Voldemort by Tabouli http://home.att.net/~coriolan/voldemort/riddle.htm#When_I'm_Voldemort After Volume Four by Pippin http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/waiting1.htm#After_Volume_Four *Lovely Rita Ugly Rita -Judy Nathanson http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/prophet.htm#Ugly_Rita *Good Morning, Good Morning Quidditch Practice by Gail B. (Above) *Sgt. Pepper's...(Reprise) Amy Z. (Above) Gryffleravin: http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/wood.htm#Captain_Ollie's_Former_Quidditch_Team *A Day In The Life A Day In Black's Life -Audra http://home.att.net/~coriolan/azkaban.htm#A_Day_in_Black's_Life *AND* A Wizard's Life -Jenny http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/49477 -Gail B _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From drdara at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 17:48:00 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 10:48:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron, Molly and Those Robes In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20030605220524.01474530@10.0.0.3> Message-ID: <20030605174800.57119.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59381 Here are my 2 knuts, robes are not bought every year by everyone. Even Harry who can afford to buy new robes every year only gets his hem dropped in teh 3rd one because he had growned. He pays for alterations on his robes rather than buy new ones every year. Ron was being Ron when it came to his robes. I know how he feels. My dad bought a house and I wasn't exactly happy with it, but since I'm not paying rent or anything I don't have too much room for complaint. And as for the trip well if I ever got enough money to go back to Holland where I was born, even if it meant not paying all bills off right away I would go on that trip. Seeing family, old friends, old and new memories would be worth it. Danielle __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 17:58:56 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 17:58:56 -0000 Subject: Much Ado About Money In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59382 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "taylorlynzie" wrote: > ... Most people are leaning in one of two extremes: > [1]-- That the Weasley's are wrong for spending money on a trip to > Egypt, ect ect. > or > [2]-- The Weasley's were correct in spending money on a trip to > Egypt, ect ect. > > ...edited... > > The ... little incident about the maroon dress robes. To be honest, > to me it sounds a bit like typical Ron. He has always been a bit of > the pouter type, this is all with fairly good reason considering > that he is the second youngest out of 7 and is probably quite > accustomed to pouting in order to get something that he wants, this > also explains his quick temper and extreme sense of loyalty. > > Also people say that Mrs Weasley was at fault because she could've > severed off the lace or she could've magically made them "better" or > knitted Ron robes specially for him. She wouldn't have time! Think > about this people, she has 7 children a husband, and two other > people in her house (Harry and Hermione) to worry about, she is > extremely busy. > > ...edited... > > Tay :D bboy_mn: Time! Well, you hit the nail right on the head. Let's look at the TIME factor in a little more detail. The Hogwarts Letters come while Harry is at the Weasley, forgot which day, but that's less that two weeks before school. If my memory serves me correctly, and it frequently doesn't, Molly went shopping while everyone was at the Quidditch match, unless I am mistaken, immediately or very soon after the QWC school started. So where is the time??? If I remember right, Molly had something like 3 days total to deal with this; the day before, the day of, and the day after the QWC. No time... Those Damn Robes- Others have speculated that there may have been some magical method of altering the robes to make them look better, and considering all that magic can do, I agree. But Molly certainly didn't have time, and Ron never asked for help. I think that is the key. Ron can be a bit stubborn (understatement), and Ron and Harry both have a very large independant streak, not to mention a health dose of excess pride. I have the same opinion regarding the robes that I do about the broken wand, if Ron had asked anyone for help, he probably would have got it, but ...oooohhhhh ...nnnooooo.... he couldn't do that. Wood can be mended, robes can be altered, but you do not get what you do not ask for. There is a life lesson to be learned here. Sadly, I think when Ron and Harry finally learn this lesson it will be under a lot more painful and tragic circumstances than a broken wand or misfit robes. Just a thought. bboy_mn From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 17:14:34 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 17:14:34 -0000 Subject: James an Auror? and Link to Interview on Clearing Hagrid's Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59383 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Peggy wrote: > > Do we actually know that who he heard was James? I know Harry > believes it was James, but Lupin seemed suprised that Harry thought > that he heard Jame's voice. He believed the voice that he heard > telling Lily to take Harry and run was his father's, but we don't > know if it was. > > Harry heard Jame's voice in the grave yard sceen, after he came out > of the wand. Though there was nothing said about his voice. There > was no comaprison made. > > It could have been James who told Lily to go, but I don't think we > can say that for certain. You can never be 100% certain about anything in fantasy. Lupin's surprise - well, that Harry _remembers_ things from so far in his past, that he heard anything at all... Or that he _heard_ him, but didn't see? Or just Harry telling him what he goes trough when dementors come near him? I think Harry's right and it _is_ his father... -- Finwitch From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Jun 5 17:31:27 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 17:31:27 -0000 Subject: Did Sirius have a knife? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59384 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ersatz Harry" wrote: > I seem to recall that Ron said Sirius had a knife when he > (Sirius) showed up in the dormitory, and that the curtains were > slashed. I definitely recall that the Fat Lady's painting was > slashed, and I assume that Sirius didn't do that with dog claws since > he had to be in human form to speak the password. (He could have > done it with a spell, I suppose.) Quote: "I saw him standing over me... like a skeleton, with loads of filthy hair... holding this great long knive, must've been twelve inches" (PoA, ch. 13, Br. Ed). Also, it is mentioned at the start that they suspect he might have a gun (but that gun never materializes in the books). > Doesn't a knife seem to be a bit of a low-tech weapon for the WW? Am > I recalling Sirius's visit to the dormitory correctly? Didn't Sirius > have a wand at the Shrieking Shack? > > Ersatz Harry Sirius did *not* have a wand at the SS. And yes, a knife is low-tech but Sirius is a fugitive of justice. While he can buy a broom by postal order and send it to Hogwarts, he cannot enter a wand shop and buy a wand, any more than a known fugitive could enter an arms shop and buy a gun. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who has noticed that lately Steve bboy has dropped his usual "this is my story..." for a more familiar turn of phrase... From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 18:27:12 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 18:27:12 -0000 Subject: Hopes for Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59385 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chuck" wrote: > > ...edited... > > PS - My guess is that "Order of the Phoenix" is not a rank or > organization. "Order" can also mean "Command." And there was a lot > of Phoenix song at the end of book 4. Maybe Fawkes was "Ordering" > the wands to do something. bboy_mn: It seems like we just talked about this recently. The possibilties are - The Command of the Phoenix The Sequence of the Phoenix The Fraternal Organization of the Phoenix. As in a lodge or club... The Honor Society of the Phoenix As in awarded knighthood in the Order of the British Empire, or Order of Merlin ... Any that I missed? However, we now have translations in two foreign languages that point to fraternal organization or honor society. Anyone speak French, Spanish, or German, who would like to add additional translations? Of course, tranlation only has meaning if the language has separate words for the various meanings of the word 'order'. Alos, It could be that translators just assumed that order=organization. Just a thought. bboy_mn From ambiree at students.bradley.edu Thu Jun 5 18:49:32 2003 From: ambiree at students.bradley.edu (ambiree at students.bradley.edu) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 13:49:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs. Weasley's knitting...(Was: Re: Ron, Molly and Those Robes) In-Reply-To: <011601c32b7d$53b65330$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> References: <010801c32b5d$2fd2e890$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> <011601c32b7d$53b65330$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> Message-ID: <1054838972.3edf90bc160c8@webmail.bradley.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 59386 Everything edited out because it was getting repititious (sp?) Hmmm...I too am going to have to agree with those who say it was a good thing to go on the trip to Egypt. Whether there was an ulterior motive for it, I don't know. However, I must say one thing about Mrs. Weasley and knitting and time. In my experience, that IS a time-consuming effort. For Christmas, I crochet Gryffindor,Slytherin, etc scarves for my friends who are HP fans. I only get a few done a year because of all my time commitments between 3 jobs and going to school full-time, however, it is just a scarf, and there is little concentration behind it. I don't have to worry about sizes or the fit of sweaters. But still it takes me about 5 hours to crochet one 4 foot long scarf, without tassels...and that is without breaks and crocheting relatively fast. A sweater requires MUCH more effort. And Mrs. Weasley does lettering and pictures on some of them. I would imagine it takes her quite a while to make just one. And she does it for at least 5 of her children annually. I applaud Mrs. Weasley for her efforts, I couldn't do it. Anyway that's my 2 knuts.... Amber ***It's all fun and games 'til I get tickled~~Amber C. Lowery*** From ildi_drabik at yahoo.ca Thu Jun 5 13:31:31 2003 From: ildi_drabik at yahoo.ca (Ildi Drabik) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 09:31:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dursley's In-Reply-To: <20030605014349.47164.qmail@web9402.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030605133131.80557.qmail@web20510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59387 Leslie Douglas wrote: --- opoptionspinkrote: > If the DuDursley dislike the Potter's as much as it > seems why did > they take Harry in? Why not just send him to an > orphanage as > suggested by Aunt Marge in PoPoA Leslie: No one really knows (yet) why the Dursleys didn't leave Harry at an orphanage. In all that we know of them from cannon it seemed like the first thing to do. But I can only think of one thing that would prevent the Dursleys from dumping Harry at an orphanage: Dumbledore letter. In first chapter of PS/SS Dumbledore leaves Harry on the front step of Privet Drive with a letter. Now, we don't know what happened to it (I support the creaky stair theory but something obviously scared the Dursleys into keeping Harry. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi! I am a newbie and this is my first post. My question is, and I hope I do not sound stupid but what was in the letter that Dumbledore left for the Dursleys? I would love to read some of the speculations. Thank you. Ildi From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 19:02:13 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 19:02:13 -0000 Subject: Sirius' knife. Who attacked who? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59388 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Grey Wolf" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ersatz Harry" > wrote: > > I seem to recall that Ron said Sirius had a knife when he > > (Sirius) showed up in the dormitory, and that the curtains were > > slashed. I definitely recall that the Fat Lady's painting was > > slashed, ...edited... > > Also, it is mentioned at the start that they suspect he might > > have a gun (but that gun never materializes in the books). > > > > > > > > Ersatz Harry > Grey Wolf: > > Sirius did *not* have a wand at the SS. ... he cannot enter a wand > shop and buy a wand, any more than a known fugitive could enter an > arms shop and buy a gun. > > Hope that helps, > > Grey Wolf, who has noticed that lately Steve bboy has dropped his > usual "this is my story..." for a more familiar turn of phrase... bboy_mn: Grey Wolf, I save "That's my story and I'm sticking to it." for long winded, overstated, highly opinionated post. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. The Gun- I always took the 'gun' part as something added to make the Muggles think that Black was extremely dangerous, and that they shouldn't approach him or try to capture him themselves. The Knife- Well, all evidence points to the knife, but it is questionable who was wielding the knife. The Scene- PoA Chapter 21 AmEd HB Pg 392: Dumbledore has just talked with Sirius and is now in the hospital wing where he throws everyone out so he can talk in private to Harry and Hermione. As soon as they are alone, Harry and Hermione both start talking at once desperatly trying to explain what happened. It goes something like this- "-- Professor, Black's telling the truth -- we /saw/ Pettigrew--" "-- he escaped when Professor Lupin turned into a werewolf--" "-- he's a rat --" "-- Pettigrew's front paw, I mean, finger, he cut it off--" Now the important one. "-- Pettigrew attacked Ron, it wasn't Sirius --" Pettigrew attacked Ron? Are they excited and confused? Is it a desperate attempt to shift blame from Sirius? Are they desperately grasping at straws, or did Peter attack Ron? Just a thought. bboy_mn From yellows at aol.com Thu Jun 5 19:05:41 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 15:05:41 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MAGIC DISWASHER and Dumbledore Dead Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59389 In a message dated 6/4/2003 10:29:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, Melody writes: > Eh...it would be ok. Epic. Grand. Fitting. I am sure Dumbledore > would find some way, he is a powerful wizard, to still influence Harry > beyond the grave. He has to bridge the Snape and Harry gap they so > carefully constructed (possible). Place a successor headmaster that > will allow Harry the same freedoms that Dumbledore does to wander at > will (McGonagall would turn a blind eye...she seems to have so far). > Leave a few body guards to watch Harry's back (Lupin, Black, > Weasleys). Keep Harry surrounded by people that love him and will > tend to his needs as a human being (Weasleys and Ron and Hermione). > Hmmm...Dumbledore has all that. Maybe he can leave it all. > > I guess I must wonder. *Must* he? > > Must Dumbledore do that? He does not have to you know. And I think > that is what you are debating. JKR has the outlet, but will she go > for it? I hope not. It is a bit trite, but then again being betrayed > by a best friend is trite, yet she managed to make it fascinating and > chilling. > I don't see why it would be so problematic, or cliche as some have implied, for JKR to go with the whole "Death of the Mentor" thing. There are only so many plot lines in the world. And, no matter how talented JKR is, she can't create something entirely new. She can only mix and match, as all writers do. She happens to do it very well and we love it. :) So, since she has set her story in the realms of the fantasy genre, I don't see why killing the mentor of our protagonist would be a problem. In fact, she's hinted at Dumbledore's age so much that I'd say JKR expects us to know Dumbledore must die *sometime* in the series, and she's not hiding it. I'm willing to bet his death won't be a huge shock when we get to it -- which is why I took back my bet that he's the "horrible" death in Book 5. Also, in MD, I think it is perfectly reasonable that Dumbledore has accounted for the fact that he might not live to see the war with Voldemort through, and therefore Dumbledore has been making provisions for years to take care of Harry after he's gone. Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Thu Jun 5 19:10:51 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 21:10:51 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hopes for Book 5 References: Message-ID: <006b01c32b96$2f052160$1c90253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 59390 bboy:mn wrote: > However, we now have translations in two foreign languages that point > to fraternal organization or honor society. Anyone speak French, > Spanish, or German, who would like to add additional translations? Of > course, tranlation only has meaning if the language has separate words > for the various meanings of the word 'order'. > Me (Izaskun) Well, the Spanish title is "Harry Potter y la orden del Fnix" but it doesn't throw too much light as "orden" can mean command, sequence, organization.... So the Spanish word is as ambiguous as the English one. Cheers, Izaskun > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From rhaberfield at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 5 18:52:22 2003 From: rhaberfield at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?robert=20haberfield?=) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 19:52:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James an Auror? and Link to Interview on Clearing Hagrid's Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030605185222.35027.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59391 peggybaratto wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phyllis" wrote: > Joanna (jojosrs24) wrote: But when Harry re-lives his parents' last moments when > faced with a Dementor, we hear James saying to Lily that he'll hold > off Voldemort. Peggy wrote There's no indication that Do we actually know that who he heard was James? I know Harry believes it was James, but Lupin seemed suprised that Harry thought that he heard Jame's voice. This is Robert (the old) Reading this chain I wondered if the male voice that Harry hears near Dementor's is Lupins? Lupin is a Wearwolf, can he be killed by an AK curse? I thought it was only silver that kills a WW. Robert the old Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From innermurk at catlover.com Thu Jun 5 19:15:40 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 19:15:40 -0000 Subject: Motives Over Ends (was: Intrinsically good magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59392 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "abigailnus" wrote: > > fault, and my example involving two cars and pastry> > > Innermurk wrote: > > > I still cannot agree to your reasoning. > > The fact that you failed to yeild is the *only* deciding choice that > > casued your accident. Any of the other choices can happen > > independantly of that one and no accident would occur. That > > particular choice could have occurred on any other corner with the > > same results. > > I think you've just made my point for me. Since I've already exposed > myself to 7000 lurkers as a bad driver, let me share a little more. > This isn't the first time I've failed to yield the right of way on a left turn. > I've even run a few yellow lights in my day. And yet, in three years that > I've been driving, this is the only time I've ever been in an accident. If > my choice not to yield the right of way was, as you say, the only factor > determining whether or not I would be in an accident, then I should > have had an accident every time I failed to yield the right of way or ran > a yellow light. > > What you're trying to say, I guess, is that all things being equal, it was > only my choice to make a left turn when I had no right to do so that > caused the accident, but you're apporaching the situation as a given > tableau, and not taking into consideration all the elements that brought > it into existance. Once I arrived at the intersection there was indeed > only one possibility - I would choose to make the left turn and have an > accident, or I wouldn't, and presumably I wouldn't collide with the other > driver. However, the situation at the intersection was not created out of > whole cloth. It was the result of billions of tiny choices and > circumstances that led myself and the other driver on a collision course > with each other. I innermurk would like to say this as my last post on the subject: Actually, far from proving your point, you just proved mine. If going to the bakery was the determing factor, then you should get into an accident every time you go to the bakery. Or the bank. Or wherever in that particular vicinity. It's the intricacy of all the choices together that caused something to happen in that particular way and place. However, your going to the bakery, or Lily's saving of Harry (to keep it on topic) had nothing to do with the accident, or the death (Cedric's). It was your failure to yeild, and Voldemorts desire to kill that caused what happened. In other words, your accident was not a consequence of going to the bakery. Cedric's death was not a consequence of Lily's sacrifice. Those are merely things that happened along the way. They're a consequence of failure to yeild, and Voldemort's inhumanity. Innermurk Feel free to mail off-list if you care to continue as I don't recieve OT Chatter. From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 19:24:01 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 12:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius' knife. Who attacked who? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030605192401.30457.qmail@web21201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59393 --- Steve wrote: > Pettigrew attacked Ron? > > Are they excited and confused? > > Is it a desperate attempt to shift blame from > Sirius? > > Are they desperately grasping at straws, or did > Peter attack Ron? Lynn: I don't believe they were referring to when Ron woke up and saw Sirius standing over him with a knife. They were referring to when they all exited the SS and Lupin changed into a werewolf. Sirius had changed into a dog so he could pull Lupin away from the rest. "Pettigrew had dived for Lupin's dropped wand. Ron, unsteady on his bandaged leg, fell. There was a bang, a burst of light - and Ron lay motionless on the ground. Another bang - Crookshanks flew into the air and back to the earth in a heap. "Expelliarmus!" Harry yelled, pointing his own wand at Pettigrew; Lupin's wand flew high into the air and out of sight. "Stay where you are!" Harry shouted, running forwards. Too late. Pettigrew had transformed." Just a thought. ;) Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From RonWeasley_is at msn.com Thu Jun 5 18:23:39 2003 From: RonWeasley_is at msn.com (ron_wizardchess_weasley) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 18:23:39 -0000 Subject: Neville won't be the one to die but will surprise everyone instead. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59394 Shadow Child seems to think that Neville will be the one to die, I however do not. I think how Neville actually turns out will surprise everyone. After all, both of his parents were highly respected and liked wizards and Aurors. I think Neville has a ton of potential just waiting for the right time to show itself. I think Neville's potential will show itself by the seventh book and Neville will play a role in the downfall of the Death Eaters and Vol... sorry, You-Know- Who. Neville just needs to find his confidence and self esteem. Let me know what you all think. Thanks. Ron_WizardChess_Weasley RonWeasley_is at msn.com From Zarleycat at aol.com Thu Jun 5 19:36:26 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 19:36:26 -0000 Subject: Sirius' knife. Who attacked who? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59395 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > bboy_mn: > > Grey Wolf, I save "That's my story and I'm sticking to it." for long > winded, overstated, highly opinionated post. That's my story and I'm > sticking to it. > > The Gun- > I always took the 'gun' part as something added to make the Muggles > think that Black was extremely dangerous, and that they shouldn't > approach him or try to capture him themselves. > > The Knife- > Well, all evidence points to the knife, but it is questionable who was > wielding the knife. I'm confused here. Are you suggesting that someone else slashed the Fat Lady? Granted, we only have Peeves comment about Sirius' nasty temper, we don't actually hear from the Fat Lady herself, but I tend to believe Ron when he says he saw Sirius looming over him with a knife in his hands. > The Scene- > PoA Chapter 21 AmEd HB Pg 392: Dumbledore has just talked with Sirius > and is now in the hospital wing where he throws everyone out so he can > talk in private to Harry and Hermione. As soon as they are alone, > Harry and Hermione both start talking at once desperatly trying to > explain what happened. It goes something like this- > > "-- Professor, Black's telling the truth -- we /saw/ Pettigrew--" > "-- he escaped when Professor Lupin turned into a werewolf--" > "-- he's a rat --" > "-- Pettigrew's front paw, I mean, finger, he cut it off--" > Now the important one. > "-- Pettigrew attacked Ron, it wasn't Sirius --" > > Pettigrew attacked Ron? > Are they excited and confused? > > Is it a desperate attempt to shift blame from Sirius? > > Are they desperately grasping at straws, or did Peter attack Ron? IIRC, Peter did attack Ron. Once Remus started to transform into a werewolf, he dropped his wand and broke free or slid out of the manacles attaching him to Peter. At that point didn't Peter seize that chance to do something to Ron to knock him out before turning into Wormtail and scurrying off? Sirius was busy first with grabbing Harry to keep him away from Remus and then Padfoot-ing to try to keep the werewolf away from the kids. Marianne From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Jun 5 20:09:30 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 13:09:30 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs. Weasley's knitting...(Was: Re: Ron, Molly and Those Robes) In-Reply-To: <1054838972.3edf90bc160c8@webmail.bradley.edu> References: <010801c32b5d$2fd2e890$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> <011601c32b7d$53b65330$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> <1054838972.3edf90bc160c8@webmail.bradley.edu> Message-ID: <157177000135.20030605130930@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 59396 Hi, Thursday, June 05, 2003, 11:49:32 AM, ambiree wrote: > I > applaud Mrs. Weasley for her efforts, I couldn't do it. But does she really do all the knitting herself, by hand? I can't remember a mention of her using magic to knit, but seeing how she gets the dishes to clean with a flick of her wand, I could see her do the same with the knitting, except maybe the parts with the letters, or the dragon for Harry's sweater. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Thu Jun 5 20:19:22 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 20:19:22 -0000 Subject: Neville won't be the one to die but will surprise everyone instead. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59397 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ron_wizardchess_weasley" wrote: > Shadow Child seems to think that Neville will be the one to die, I > however do not. I think how Neville actually turns out will surprise > everyone. The one doesn't actually exclude the other. However, I agree with you that he won't die. That is just my personal feeling and I can't explain it more exactly, but I think he will make it (and hey, my feeling isn't that bad. Before the finale Buffy season began, I predicted that Anya, Spike, Faith and Jonathan will die, and three out of four is a pretty good result ;-) ) Also, he is still my "personal favourite" for the student, who will become a teacher in the end, and therefore he has to live. Even Binns started as human teacher, before he became a ghost, after all. Hickengruendler From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Thu Jun 5 19:28:02 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 21:28:02 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius' knife. Who attacked who? References: Message-ID: <007f01c32b98$957d0e10$1c90253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 59398 bboy:mn wrote: > > The Scene- > PoA Chapter 21 AmEd HB Pg 392: Dumbledore has just talked with Sirius > and is now in the hospital wing where he throws everyone out so he can > talk in private to Harry and Hermione. As soon as they are alone, > Harry and Hermione both start talking at once desperatly trying to > explain what happened. It goes something like this- > > "-- Professor, Black's telling the truth -- we /saw/ Pettigrew--" > "-- he escaped when Professor Lupin turned into a werewolf--" > "-- he's a rat --" > "-- Pettigrew's front paw, I mean, finger, he cut it off--" > Now the important one. > "-- Pettigrew attacked Ron, it wasn't Sirius --" > > Pettigrew attacked Ron? > > Are they excited and confused? > > Is it a desperate attempt to shift blame from Sirius? > > Are they desperately grasping at straws, or did Peter attack Ron? > Me (Izaskun) Pettigrew did attack Ron, he sort of stunned him in order to free himself and scape when they were getting out of the Shrieking Shack "Pettigrew had dived for Lupin's dropped wand. Ron, unsteady on his bandaged leg, fell. There was a bang, a burst of light -- and Ron lay motionless on the ground. Another bang -- Crookshanks flew into the air and back to the earth in a heap." PoA Ch. 20 The Dementor's Kiss. Cheers, Izaskun > > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From maryblue67 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 20:27:30 2003 From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 13:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hopes for Book 5 In-Reply-To: <1054841404.10162.1513.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030605202730.69863.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59399 bboy_mn suggested the following possibilities: It seems like we just talked about this recently. The possibilties are - The Command of the Phoenix The Sequence of the Phoenix The Fraternal Organization of the Phoenix. As in a lodge or club... The Honor Society of the Phoenix As in awarded knighthood in the Order of the British Empire, or Order of Merlin ... Any that I missed? However, we now have translations in two foreign languages that point to fraternal organization or honor society. Anyone speak French, Spanish, or German, who would like to add additional translations? Of course, tranlation only has meaning if the language has separate words for the various meanings of the word 'order'. Alos, It could be that translators just assumed that order=organization. Maria (spanish speaker) adds: I just did a quick search for Spanish Fan sites to see how the book will be called in Spanish, and the title is "Harry Potter y la Orden del Fenix". Now, spanish articles carry gender, and in this particular example orden can have both masculine and femenine gender, depending on the meaning. Back to your possibilities, i'll specify the genter in spanish: The Command of the Phoenix - femenine The Sequence of the Phoenix - masculine The Fraternal Organization of the Phoenix. - femenine The Honor Society of the Phoenix - femenine Since the title is "la orden", femenine, we have three choices. But at least we can reject the 'sequence' option. However, as you said, it could have been the interpretation of the translator. Ah! I just thought of another possibility, although in spanish it would be masculine: How about 'order' as in 'era'? I mean, the new order as a new period in time, after some historical event... it is not as probable as the others, but well... Maria ===== Maryblue ---------------------------------------------------------- "Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love" - Eistein __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From m.bockermann at t-online.de Thu Jun 5 20:34:01 2003 From: m.bockermann at t-online.de (m.bockermann at t-online.de) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 22:34:01 +0200 Subject: Hermione And Bulgaria References: <1054706815.9154.4650.m3@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <00b001c32ba8$00ba1100$a40b9d3e@n1a2y2> No: HPFGUIDX 59400 >>>I'm Louis Badalament, first-time poster, hello. Hi Louis! Glad you are here. >>>Personal opinions, now; do you think Hermione would have taken Viktor up on his offer? Personally? I do believe that she *has* accepted. Hermione tells Ron and Harry about the invitation during Potions class (page 559, British edition). Ron is so upset that he ground the pestel outside the bowl and tries to get her to tell them if she accepted or not. Note that she avoids his eyes and his questions and that even at the end, she does not deny accepting. She only points out that she was busy worrying about Ron and Hermione. That implies that she didn't accept right away. However, that does not mean that she didn't accept at a later point of time. Yes, Voldemort is back - but why should that be a reason to cancel the trip? Outside the UK the Trio might even be much less at risk than in the UK where Voldemort is bound to try and reestablish his power. Add to that, that I feel certain that at the end of GoF DD sent Hagrid as a kind of envoy to the giants - who supposedly retreated to East Europe as well. So I believe that the "new physical location" Rowling hinted at could be somewhere in East Europe. With a nod to those who believe that Snape is a vampire or dhampire - East Europe is the cradle of vampire legends, too? And of the Veela, too. So there is ample opportunity for the Trio to meet some interesting folks on their travel. I say the Trio, because I can't see Ron letting Hermione go and not coming along. Wether there is something between Ron and Hermione or he is only warning her against Viktor because Viktor is from Durmstrang - in both scenarios I believe that Ron would want to accompany her. I wouldn't be surprized if Harry would somehow be able to come along and still be protected from Voldemort without the Dursley's presense... but how, I can't say. I'm not convinced that their protection still works, after Voldemort took Harry's blood, so that might be a moot point anyway and staying with the Dursley's not necessary anymore. Which of course opens numerous possibilities for plot points... >>>If so, why and how long do you think she'd have stayed? Why would Hermione go and for how long? I'd say for a couple of weeks during summer break, but not so many that she wouldn't be able to spend some time with her parents. Between 2 and 4 weeks I'd guess. Why? Well, I think that she does like Viktor. While I don't think that she'll end up with him, I do think that she has some crush on him. Wether you are a Harry/Hermione- or Ron/Hermione-shipper, in either case you have to admit that the guys are not really into the dating business yet. Just look to their behaviour at the ball for proof. Well, boys in their age lag a bit behind in maturity, so IMHO while Hermione is already growing up as far as it concerns dating, Harry and Ron will only actively date girls in their fifth year. (If you believe the Patil sisters at the ball were their dates, I'm quite sure that the girls would disagree. Ron and Harry just asked them to be able to go to the ball but had no real interest in them.) I don't think that Hermione will end up with Viktor, but I think she will need some time to figure that out. And the figuring out will happen while Hermione and the others visit Viktor. Greetings, Ethanol From tammy at mauswerks.net Thu Jun 5 21:42:50 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 17:42:50 -0400 Subject: The Weasley's vacation (was: Ron, Molly and Those Robes) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EDF811A.16376.389529C@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 59401 On 5 Jun 2003 at 11:32, Fred Waldrop wrote: > Why spend an entire month in Egypt? Wouldn't it seem more prudent, not > to mention smarter to stay, oh, 2 weeks? That way you have a nice > vaction and still have half the money left to buy school supplies and > robes. > > Fred A month stay with relatives costs almost the same as a two-week stay with relatives -- most of the cost is getting there and back, after all. I don't know if Bill is connected to the Floo Network or not, or if they used a Portkey, or what, but I still imagine that it wouldn't have cost much more to stay the whole month rather than just two weeks. So, they'd need money for food, right? Well, they'd be eating in Egypt or at The Burrow, so what's the difference? They'd need money for lodging? Not if Bill or Arthur or someone 'expanded' Bill's place to make room for them all, like those tents Arthur borrowed for the QWC. They have bills to pay back home? What would they have to pay, except possibly a mortgage? They don't use fellytones or ekeltricity, they probably have the WW equivalent of a well and a leach-field (precursor to the septic tank), so they don't pay for water or sewage, so they don't have to worry about services being cut off for missing a month. I figure that Bill would have been taking them on their tours of the pyramids and whatnot, unless there is a WW tour business there. There might be. Staying half the time doesn't mean half the cost, unless they're staying in some swanky hotel or something, and I just don't see Ron not at least mentioning that, if they did stay somewhere posh. I'm convinced that the 'expense' was for travelling there and back, in which case, if this is the only time you're gonna be able to do it, you might as well do it right and stay as long as you can. *** Tammy tammy at mauswerks.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sfpeterso at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 21:48:00 2003 From: sfpeterso at yahoo.com (Scott Peterson) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 21:48:00 -0000 Subject: The Death of Book 5 In-Reply-To: <20030604175640.23581.qmail@web21408.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59402 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Milica Meili wrote: > Merlin wrote: > J.K.R. has already stated that the character will not be one of the three main characters of Harry Ron or Hermione, but she did say that the person has been around since the first book and that they were a fan of Harry's. > > Merlin > > Hi everyone > >I think it could very well be Neville. > > shadow child > Me: Another newbie checking in... The one thing that keeps coming back to my mind when thinking of the Book 5 death is this: Harry ALWAYS faces Voldie (and his supporters) alone. PS/SS: He battles Voldie and Quirrel alone because Ron is unconscious and there isn't enough ice potion for Harry and Hermione. CS: Harry battles Tom and the basilisk alone (well, fawkes and the hat make an appearance I guess - but no humans) because Ron and Goldilocks are behind a wall of rocks. PoA: Harry, although not alone, does make the final decision to keep Voldie's worm(tail) alive to rescue Voldie yet again. GoF: Cedric is executed to leave Harry alone (again, ghosts appear to help him - hmmm, maybe I am talking myself out of this one) Sidenote: by the way, that death still haunts me. It still doesn't make sense that Cedric died. It keeps occuring to me that maybe Ron won't be lucky enough to be injured this time - they will face Voldie together, and Ron won't make it. That would be a terrible loss - I'd hate to see it happen, but has it been foreshadowed in GoF? The biggest tragedy of having Ron die would be that we would never see him grow up. I remember being a scrawny 13 year old and worried about money. My parents were above middle-class, I had no older brothers and sisters, and I had an above average allowance. I still remember worrying where I would get the money to buy the things I wanted (a car in my case). I would really enjoy seeing Ron turn into the good-looking, confident, Quidditch keeping, muscle rippling stud that occurs when a boy becomes a man. Scott From chuck_richie_99 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 20:00:34 2003 From: chuck_richie_99 at yahoo.com (Chuck) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 20:00:34 -0000 Subject: Polyjuice Potions... Dead or alive? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59403 Peg: > The Polyjuice Potion only affects a person's appearance. So, it > *seems* that the hair of a dead person *ought* to work. Kind of. It affects a person's appearance as they currently appear. How so? The Real Moody had a lost leg, right? I doubt he was born that way. So why doesn't pollyjuice (PJ) turn Crouch into Moody with 2 legs? Answer: It turns you into how you appear when the potion is made. If Moody is dead, the PJ turns you into a dead person. Chuck From emmo at wanadoo.nl Thu Jun 5 19:44:48 2003 From: emmo at wanadoo.nl (Emmo Kuipers) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 21:44:48 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The word "order", was: Re: Hopes for Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c32b9a$ec9dd330$4015fea9@Compaqje> No: HPFGUIDX 59404 Vickey wrote: Same applies for the Dutch version, which will probably be released the end of the year. The translation uses the word "Orde" which means "Organisation" and not the word "Opdracht" or "Roep" which would mean command. My 2 cts, Vicky Now me: The word "orde" in Dutch can still mean several things. So not all possibility's are elliminated. In a post form bboy_mn he gives four possibility's: The Command, The sequence, the fraternal organisation an de the honor society. The meaning of order as in command doesn't fit. " Orde" in dutch does not mean fraternal society or command. This still leaves two possible explainations. "Orde" is the opposite of chaos. In the book this means imo the balancing between good and evil by the phoenix. (fawkes?) "Orde" is also used in the meaning of a honor society. e.g. the order of Merlin. All this does not give a conclusive answer for the explanation of the book 5 titel. greetz Emmo p.s. I hope I did everything ok since this is my first post. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 22:35:22 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 22:35:22 -0000 Subject: Sirius' knife. Who attacked who? In-Reply-To: <007f01c32b98$957d0e10$1c90253e@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59405 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fridwulfa" wrote: > bboy:mn wrote: > > > > The Scene- > > PoA Chapter 21 AmEd HB Pg 392: Dumbledore has just talked with > > Sirius and is now in the hospital wing where he throws everyone > > out so he can talk in private to Harry and Hermione. > > Now the important one. > > "-- Pettigrew attacked Ron, it wasn't Sirius --" > > > > ..edited... > > > > Are they desperately grasping at straws, or did Peter attack Ron? > > > > Me (Izaskun) > > Pettigrew did attack Ron, he sort of stunned him in order to free > himself and scape when they were getting out of the Shrieking Shack. > > > > > Cheers, Izaskun > bboy_mn now replies: Oooooo... right, I forgot about that part. But on the other hand, why did the person add that it was Peter NOT SIRIUS. Again, my memory isn't the most trust worthy, but when was it implied during this time that Sirius had attacked Ron? That's why I assumed it was the earlier attack. Snape was unconsious the whole time, so he wouldn't know who attacked who. I guess maybe when you look at who was assumed to be there; Sirius, Lupin, Snape, Harry, Ron, and Hermione, that would only leave Lupin or Sirius. So maybe I just talked explained to by self; still the whole thing seems pretty iffy if you ask me. Just a thought. bboy_mn From yellows at aol.com Thu Jun 5 22:38:52 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 18:38:52 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione And Bulgaria Message-ID: <3FD326D4.73016A2E.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59406 In a message dated 6/5/2003 3:34:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, Ethanol writes: > Harry and Ron will only actively date girls in their > fifth year. (If you believe the Patil sisters at the ball were their dates, > I'm quite sure that the girls would disagree. Ron and Harry just asked them > to be able to go to the ball but had no real interest in them.) > > I don't think that Hermione will end up with Viktor, but I think she will > need some time to figure that out. And the figuring out > will happen while > Hermione and the others visit Viktor. :) First of all, I like the way you said, "I'm quite sure that the girls would disagree." :) When you read the scenes at the ball, it's really very funny. Ron behaves disgracefully, and Harry's no Prince Charming either. But they're too young to know any better yet. It will be nice to watch them do a bit better the next time they're alone with girls they have crushes on. And I agree that Hermione will not "end up" with Krum, but she'll visit him nonetheless. Few people "end up" with the guy or girl we took to the first prom. But many of us still fell in love, to some degree, with that date. We still exchanged love letters and talked all night on the phone for a year or two. It just didn't last forever. There's little in this world that can shake my belief in the Harry/Ginny, Hermione/Ron matches, but it simply wouldn't be realistic for Hermione and Ron to be together right away. Everyone needs a few practice runs at love before the real thing happens. And it's so cute to see Ron go through the agony when he doesn't even understand it himself. :) Brief Chronicles From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 22:49:29 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 15:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP Currency Converter @ CNN (was) Money, Trips, Cars, and More Money In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030605224929.28329.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59407 Steve, in part: > Close but no cigar. The exchange > rate is G1.00 = 5.00 as stated by > JKR in an interview. Unfortunately, > we have no G to $ exchange rate, > and we have no sense as to what > factors would cause the Galleon/Pound > exchange rate to float, so... > > Brit = US $1.634 > US $ = 0.612 > > So... > > 5.00 x 1.634 = US$8.17 > > Although the exchange rate is down, > the HP Lexicon says $7.33. The 3 > yr average is 1.55, so...5.00 x > 1.55 = US $7.75. [for simplicity, I > always use G1:5:$7. Nice round > numbers] Ray, in part: > But all of this relies on a > fluctuating Muggle exchange rate for > GBP:USD. In the forward to > Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find > them, "Dumbledore" writes: > > "...Comic Relief U.K. (which, funnily > enough, has nothing to do with the > American organization of the same > name)....has raised over 250 million > dollars since 1985 (that's also 174 > million pounds, or thirty-four > million, eight hundred and seventy-two > Galleons, fourteen Sickles, and seven > Knuts). > > In the forward to Quidditch through > the Ages, there is a similar passage, > but using a rounded figure of "34 > million Galleons". > > These figures actually give a direct > exchange rate of $7.35 = 1 Galleon, > but for simplicity, I use $7.50. Speaking of monetary conversions, I thought you guys might get a kick out of the HARRY POTTER CURRENCY CONVERTER on this web page: http://cgi.money.cnn.com/apps/hpcurrconv This converter from CNN Money gives us 1 galleon = 4 US Dollars and 82 cents and 1 US Dollar = 3 sickles and 15 knuts How CNN Money calculates their figures: http://money.cnn.com/ 2001/10/23/saving/wizard_calc/ (be sure to reconstruct URL!) Elsewhere at CNN Money: 1 British Pound (GBP)=1.66 US Dollar (USD) and 1 US Dollar=0.6 British Pound Is this method of conversion interesting? Yes. Is this definitive? As with all HP numerical issues: infinitely debatable. Petra a n :) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 22:50:26 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 22:50:26 -0000 Subject: The word "order", was: Re: Hopes for Book 5 In-Reply-To: <000201c32b9a$ec9dd330$4015fea9@Compaqje> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59408 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Emmo Kuipers" wrote: > > > > > > Vickey wrote: > > Same applies for the Dutch version, which will probably be released > the end of the year. The translation uses the word "Orde" which > means "Organisation" and not the word "Opdracht" or "Roep" which > would mean command. > > My 2 cts, > > Vicky > > > Now me: > > The word "orde" in Dutch can still mean several things. In a post > form bboy_mn he gives four possibility's: The Command, The sequence, > the fraternal organisation and the honor society. The meaning of > order as in command doesn't fit. ... This still leaves two possible > explainations. > > "Orde" is the opposite of chaos. > > greetz > > Emmo bboy_mn: Order and chaos; I completely forgot about that one. So let's see, how can I state that possibility. The Order of the Phoenix could be the well organized, properly functioning, stable, perhaps even tranquil result of the Phoenix. The possibilties are - The Well Ordered World of the Phoenix The Command of the Phoenix The Sequence of the Phoenix The Fraternal Organization of the Phoenix. As in a lodge or club... The Honor Society of the Phoenix As in awarded knighthood in the Order of the British Empire, or Order of Merlin ... Just our luck, the Order of the Phoenix will be Ham and Cheese on Rye. Hummm... is that another one... The Request of the Phoenix???? Just a thought. bboy_mn From dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 21:00:31 2003 From: dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com (dudemom_2000) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 21:00:31 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Weasley's knitting...(Was: Re: Ron, Molly and Those Robes) In-Reply-To: <1054838972.3edf90bc160c8@webmail.bradley.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59409 > However, I must say one thing about Mrs. Weasley and knitting and > time. In my experience, that IS a time-consuming effort. For Christmas, I > crochet Gryffindor,Slytherin, etc scarves for my friends who are HP fans. > I only get a few done a year because of all my time commitments between 3 > jobs and going to school full-time, however, it is just a scarf, and there > is little concentration behind it. I don't have to worry about sizes or the > fit of sweaters. But still it takes me about 5 hours to crochet one 4 > foot long scarf, without tassels...and that is without breaks and crocheting > relatively fast. A sweater requires MUCH more effort. And Mrs. Weasley > does lettering and pictures on some of them. I would imagine it takes her > quite a while to make just one. And she does it for at least 5 of her > children annually. I applaud Mrs. Weasley for her efforts, I couldn't do it. > > Anyway that's my 2 knuts.... > > Amber > > ***It's all fun and games 'til I get tickled~~Amber C. Lowery*** I'm an experienced knitter and I have knitted the Initial Sweater and it took about two weeks to do but it was so much fun! I also designed and knitted a Quiddich Sweater again roughly two weeks to knit (it took longer to design), so Mrs. Weasley still had quite a bit to do because of the numbers involved but if she enchanted her needles the boring stuff probably got done pretty quickly! I am fascinated that knitting keeps cropping up again and again in the books. JK describes the sweater Mrs. Weasley knits for Harry every year and goes into great detail describing socks etc. Must be a knitter herself...... *****\(@@)/***** Dudemom_2000 From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 17:29:54 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 17:29:54 -0000 Subject: Did Sirius have a knife? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59410 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ersatz Harry" wrote: >While I don't have PoA with me right > now, I seem to recall that Ron said Sirius had a knife when he > (Sirius) showed up in the dormitory, and that the curtains were > slashed. I definitely recall that the Fat Lady's painting was > slashed, and I assume that Sirius didn't do that with dog claws since > he had to be in human form to speak the password. (He could have done > it with a spell, I suppose.) >Doesn't a knife seem to be a bit of a low-tech weapon for the WW? Am > I recalling Sirius's visit to the dormitory correctly? Didn't Sirius > have a wand at the Shrieking Shack? > Me(Finwitch): He visited twice. First time he slashed the Fat Lady (not knowing the password), second time he had the password list for Sir Cadagan, who'd FIGHT if he tried slashing. He might well have been in dog-form and used claws the first time. I doubt the prisoners are allowed to have knives in Azcaban - or are they? Maybe not in top-security section where Sirius was or whatever... What comes to the wand, Sirius did have a wand when he was about to kill Pettigrew (only one murder), but it wasn't _his_ wand. Snape's, IIRC.. Anyway, he did not have a wand when entering Dormitory. -- Finwitch From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Thu Jun 5 23:19:03 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 01:19:03 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The word "order", was: Re: Hopes for Book 5 References: Message-ID: <003d01c32bb8$db619c50$3b15253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 59411 > > > bboy_mn: > > Order and chaos; I completely forgot about that one. So let's see, how > can I state that possibility. The Order of the Phoenix could be the > well organized, properly functioning, stable, perhaps even tranquil > result of the Phoenix. > Me (izaskun) I don't think that's the meaning. If we are to trust translations, the Spanish title "La orden del Fnix" can't mean order as in the opposite of chaos, because, though it's the same word, the article gender for that meaning is masculine, not feminine, so it would be "El orden del fnix". So, considering the German, Dutch and Spanish titles, i think Order means either fraternal organization or honor society. I personally think it's the first one. Cheers, Izaskun > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From Malady579 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 23:37:04 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 23:37:04 -0000 Subject: The word "order" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59412 Bboy so wonderfully discovered the truth of OoP: > Just our luck, the Order of the Phoenix will be Ham and Cheese on Rye. > > Hummm... is that another one... The Request of the Phoenix???? > > Just a thought. Oh honey. I *love* it. Ok. I am sitting here with Grey Wolf on the other ear, and we have figured out how this will work. You see. With titles of HP, the title is a major point of the story; so therefore, this "request" of the phoenix changes *everything*. Now. We know of one such phoenix that is a major character to date. Now JKR can of course introduce a girlfriend to our Fawkes, but lets work with him for now since we much construct theories around canon. For some odd reason they seem more plausible that way. :P We have Fawkes wanting to order something. Maybe he is hungry. Being cooped up in Dumbledore's office must get boring. He needs adventure. CoS got him all thirsting for more. So, Fawkes decides to not wait for old Dumbledore to feed him one day. Oh no. Fawkes does that popping and appearing out of no where thing and gets himself to The Three Broomsticks for a ham and cheese on rye. After all. He is a phoenix who dies and it reborn. What does it matter, if this time he has high cholesterol when he dies? So he is out flirting with Madam Rosmerta. Showing off his tail feathers. Beaking down that rye sandwich with a butter beer. But he forgets. He forgets that Dumbledore needed him that day. Dumbledore had penciled him in to save Hagrid from the giants or something. Dumbledore apparates all of a sudden in rage. Scolded the phoenix, but it is too late. Fawkes' tears are now so watered by the butter beer that they are not able to save loyal Hagrid. This silly little order and request of the phoenix destroys our young hero's heart. How tragic. How much despair. Fawkes the champion of CoS and GoF is the very thing that lets everyone down. All for a ham and cheese on rye. :D Melody and Grey Wolf From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 23:45:08 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 23:45:08 -0000 Subject: HP Currency Converter @ CNN (was) Money, Trips, Cars, and More Money In-Reply-To: <20030605224929.28329.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59413 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Petra Pan wrote: > Steve, in part: > > The exchange rate is > > G1.00 = ?5.00 as stated > > by JKR in an interview. .... > > > > Brit ? = US $1.634 > > > > So... > > > > ?5.00 x 1.634 = US$8.17 > > > > ... the HP Lexicon says $7.33. > > 3 yr average = US $7.75. > > > > Ray, in part: > > ... In the forward to 'Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find' them, > > "Dumbledore" writes: > > > > "....has raised over $250,000,000 ... (... ?174,000,000), or > > G34,000,872+ ...). > > > > .... (that equals) $7.35 = 1 Galleon,..., I use $7.50. > bboy_mn now adds: ?174,000,000 / 34,000,872.83 = 5.12 therefore G1 = ?5.12. This confirms the approx G1:?5 rate. > ...(CNN)... HARRY POTTER CURRENCY CONVERTER > on this web page: > > http://cgi.money.cnn.com/apps/hpcurrconv > > This converter from CNN Money gives us > > G1 = $4.82 > and > $1.00 = 3 sickles and 15 knuts > > How CNN Money calculates their figures: ...edited.. > > > Is this definitive? > > Petra bboy_mn: Two sources both directly tied to JKR (her interview and her book) set the exchange rate at G1 = about ?5 . The CNN site has always been in error and for some reason, they refuse to correct this error. How very nice of them to provide this fun service, but it's useless if it isn't accurate. I believe this may have come of the cover of some book that had the price in both dollars and galleons, but was obviously in error. Given the numbers they are using, I suspect they took the Galleon to Pound rate and used it as the Galleon to Dollar rate. At any rate (a pun), we have no way to adjust the Galleon to Pound rate, so it remains fixed at about G1:?5. We can only adjust the Galleon to Dollar rate based on fluctuations in the Br. Pound to US Dollar rate. Regardless of all this, it is handy to have some basic conversion in mind as you read the book. Harry paid (I think) G7.00 for his wand (using current rate of 1.63; G7 x 5 = ?35 x 1.63 = $57.05) and he paid G10.00 for the Omnoculars (G10 x 5 = ?50 x 1.63 = $81.50). Cheap wand; expensive Omniculars, and he bought three of them. For simplicity, I either use G1:?5:$7 or use a very easy ?:$ x1.5 (same as ?5 = $7.50) to convert from Pounds to Dollars. It's not accurate, but it does give you a general idea of what things cost. G1 = ?5 x 1.5 = $7.50 S1 = (?5/17) = ?0.294 x 1.5 = $0.44 K1 = (?5/493) = ?0.01 x 1.5 = $0.015 Just a thought, or maybe too many thought. bboy_mn From yellows at aol.com Thu Jun 5 19:12:48 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 15:12:48 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dursley's Message-ID: <182.1bfb9cd8.2c10f030@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59414 In a message dated 6/5/2003 9:21:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, Vicky writes: > Then imagine that the own son always > had new expensive clothes, the best toys and looked well fed and > properly taken care of. At the same time the nephew was a small > skinny boy, who clearly got beaten around by his nephew, with a > sloppy haircut (the Dursleys can't change this, but nobody knows > that) and who is always wearing worn-out, clearly second hand > clothes, who has broken glasses and never any toys. > > Imagine what the people would say: Poor little boy, he is so > neglegted... > > No, I stick with my theory that DD did or said something to assure > the Dursleys to take care of Harry. > I agree. Because it was Dumbledore who brought Harry there in the first place, and because of the mysterious "Old Gang" member down the road, I'd say that Dumbledore makes it very clear that Harry must stay on Privet Drive. This is part of Dumbledore's plan to keep Harry safe while away from Hogwarts. This could also be part of the reason the Dursleys hate Harry so much. Imagine *wanting* to send a child to the orphanage and *trying* to send him to the orphanage, but then being stopped by a grizzly old wizard who threatens you with his half-giant friend (or something or someone else). Perhaps they disliked the WW before, but after that, the Dursleys *hate* all things magic. Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Jun 5 23:52:25 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 16:52:25 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hopes for Book 5 In-Reply-To: <20030605202730.69863.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030605202730.69863.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1645819312.20030605165225@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 59415 Hi, Thursday, June 05, 2003, 1:27:30 PM, Maria wrote: > Anyone speak French, > Spanish, or German, who would like to add additional translations? Did I miss a message that lists the German title? I searched amazon.de and a bunch of other German Harry Potter websites, but nowhere I went did they actually list a title. Just "Band 5". Since I'm German, I'm now intensely curious to find out how they translated the title. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 23:53:10 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 23:53:10 -0000 Subject: MAGIC DISWASHER and Dumbledore Dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59416 Pickle Jimmy wrote: My arguement wasn't that if he dies he couldn't MD - because, in my previous post, I parallelled Dumbledore with Obi Wan (who died and still directed Luke from the grave) and Gandalf (who "died" and came back to aid Frodo's quest). What I was saying is that *I* don't think JK will use the "Death of a Mentor" plot in the series as it has been done. Melody posited: Eh... [Dumbledore's death] would be ok. Epic. Grand. Fitting. I am sure Dumbledore would find some way, he is a powerful wizard, to still influence Harry beyond the grave. Brief Chronicles added: So, since she has set her story in the realms of the fantasy genre, I don't see why killing the mentor of our protagonist would be a problem. In fact, she's hinted at Dumbledore's age so much that I'd say JKR expects us to know Dumbledore must die *sometime* in the series, and she's not hiding it. I'm willing to bet his death won't be a huge shock when we get to it -- which is why I took back my bet that he's the "horrible" death in Book 5. I, Tom, concurring with Melody and Brief Chronicles, reply: Actually, I'm of the opinion that Dumbledore *has* to die before the end of the series in order for the story to have any serious weight, and in order for Harry to come into his own. No if's, and's, or but's about it. As Brief Chronicles noted, JKR has set her story in the fantasy genre, which carries with it certain epic plot devices. One of these is the `Death of the Mentor,' which has been used in many of the epic tales that we all know and love. The way I see it, this device doesn't exist for no reason ? and, IMHO, just because it's a notable plot device doesn't mean that it's been used the same way every time, nor, as Jimmy notes (I'm thinking,) does it mean that she will retread a tried variance on the theme. It does indicate to me, however, that this plot point will emerge eventually in the series. Brief Chronicles stated: I don't see why it would be so problematic, or cliche as some have implied, for JKR to go with the whole "Death of the Mentor" thing. There are only so many plot lines in the world. And, no matter how talented JKR is, she can't create something entirely new. She can only mix and match, as all writers do. She happens to do it very well and we love it. :) I, Tom, add: I couldn't agree more, Brief Chronicles! As Pickle Jimmy astutely analyzed, Dumbledore has clear parallels with Obi Wan Kenobi and Gandalf. Harry, therefore, would be paralleled with Luke Skywalker and Frodo. However, I'm unclear on exactly what Jimmy meant concerning JKR using this Death of the Mentor plot device `as it has been done.' By that, do you mean that she shouldn't use it at *all,* or that she should at least try to use it differently than others have used it? My take on this is that the 'Death of the Mentor' is an *essential* step in the progress of the series, and the evolution of a hero. What's important to note is that in almost every case that this device is used, the `Death of the Mentor' is not just a random plot point. It's supposed to be the catalyst for the hero's development and growth, and ultimately the necessary push the hero needs to come into his/her own. The mentor first schools the fledgling hero, instructing him/her about the past, the `magic' (i.e. whatever mystical power is the centerpiece of the universe,) and destiny. The mentor is the failsafe. The mentor is the lifesaver. The mentor then disappears, leaving the hero with the (normally unsolicited) burden of implementing what the mentor has taught, and resolving the quest that the mentor has introduced. In other words, as long as there's a wizened old mentor hanging around to, as Pickle Jimmy said, `Magic Dishwasher' events (in the verbal sense,) there's no real pressure on the hero, i.e. the mentor can always save the day when the situation gets too hairy. And this is usually what happens over and over again until the mentor dies, or alternately `goes away for a while.' Because the hero knows that the mentor can save the day, the hero doesn't (and sometimes can't) take the initiative. The hero waits for the mentor's say-so, or for the mentor's intervention when things get too sticky. In other words, the hero can't ever be fully developed until the mentor is out of the picture. Only then can the hero begin to realize his/her full potential. Only then does the hero take fate by the reins and start to understand. I like how Pickle Jimmy used parallels with other famous epics. I'd like to dissect them a tad more, if no one minds, and if it's not *too* OT. ;-) Let's start with `Star Wars.' In the case of Episodes IV-VI, what we have is the story of Luke's growth and triumph over both his own father and the leader of the Dark Side, Emperor Palpatine. Obi Wan Kenobi bites the bullet early on in the story in Episode IV. In this case, although Obi Wan is Luke's mentor, what happens is that Luke has somewhere else to turn, i.e. Yoda. So, what we have in Star Wars is an interesting twist on the standard death of the mentor theme: a) A better, stronger, less-flawed mentor (Yoda) replaces Obi Wan, and b) Obi Wan can still guide from beyond the grave as his ghostly self. Please note that, even though Obi Wan can ostensibly communicate with Luke even while dead, he still only pops up in times of dire peril to provide guidance. In other words, Luke is largely on his own despite his mentor's ability to help. It's not always in the hero's best interests, after all, to be saved by the mentor. Sometimes the hero is supposed to stumble. How else can redemption happen? In the case of `The Lord of the Rings,' we have the same theme, but again, altered to fit the parameters of Tolkein's epic tale. As Jimmy notes, Gandalf doesn't *die,* per se, as much as he is transformed from 'Gandalf the Grey' into 'Gandalf the White.' This metamorphosis has several key relationships to the rest of the plot's development, beyond simple disappearance for disappearance's sake. First, Gandalf's transformation from 'Grey' to 'White' is necessary to facilitate his equality with Saruman the White, who is until that point technically his superior. Once they're on equal footing, Gandalf is able (behind the scenes or not) to successfully confront and undo Saruman. Second, we have more than one story of growth in this saga: Frodo, yes, but also Aragorn, who is destined to assume his place as the King of Gondor in Minas Tirith. Thus, we don't need Gandalf to *die* as much as we need him to 'disappear for a while.' This disappearance allows both Frodo and Aragorn to more fully understand their own roles in the quest. This disappearance is what forces them to begin deciding for themselves how they intend to grapple with their own fates. In Frodo's case, he realizes that the One Ring is too dangerous a temptation for the Fellowship, and sets off on his own. Well, until Samwise insists that he accompany his friend on the journey, that is. ;-) Of course, this is because of the promise he made to Gandalf before the wizard's disappearance. In such a way does Gandalf `Magic Dishwasher' events even from a great distance, across both time and space. In Aragorn's case, he assumes leadership of the remainder of the Fellowship upon Gandalf's fall into Moria's abyss. Until this point, Aragorn was a leader-in-waiting. Now he's *is* the leader of the quest, and soon to be of all mankind. Gandalf's disappearance is integral to the plot in the sense that neither Frodo nor Aragorn would have taken the initiative unless it was forced upon them. Now, let's add to these two examples some other greats from this line of storytelling, say, `The Matrix (since I just caught `Reloaded,') `The Dark is Rising Sequence,' and `The Chronicles of Narnia.' In `The Matrix,' Neo is a would-be Messiah, `destined' to face the machines on behalf of an exiled-to-the-center-of-the-earth mankind. His mentor is Morpheus. Morpheus (spoiler warning ahead, for those who still wish to see the film untainted with pre-knowledge)... S P O I L E R S P O I L E R ... has not died yet. This is not to suggest that he won't die in the future, simply that he hasn't thus far. Indeed, the prebuzz for Matrix Revolutions indicates that the third installment is largely concerned with death. However, in fitting with the theme, what Morpheus *has* done has been out of reach for a while. S P O I L E R S P O I L E R Okay, no more spoilers, unless you haven't seen the first 'Matrix.' In the first film, Neo is forced to battle Agent Smith in the train station once Trinity has exited the Matrix. Morpheus, of course, is back on the Nebuchadnezzar, operating from behind the scenes. But now that Morpheus cannot guide Neo directly, now, for the first time, our hero is truly on his own. If Morpheus had been present here, this development for Neo's character would not have occurred. Thus, Morpheus does not need to die to facilitate Neo's growth and realization. All that needed to happen was a disappearance, thus rendering him unable to be the failsafe that Neo needs (or desires,) and therefore forcing Neo to realize his own hidden potential. Moving onward, in `The Dark is Rising,' (by Susan Cooper,) the role of the mentor is fulfilled by Merriman Lyon, a wise old man who is ancient out of the ages, and who schools young Will Stanton in the ways of the `Old Ones,' people destined from birth to battle the `Dark,' which is constantly threatening to rise up and destroy mankind. In `The Dark is Rising,' again, we do not have a situation where Merriman must die to facilitate Will's growth. What we do have is slightly different from our other scenarios in that Merriman is inaccessible at certain pivotal rough points in Will's quest. Why? Well, unlike Gandalf (who is growing and changing himself,) or Obi Wan (who dies,) or Morpheus (who sits by biting his nails while Neo is threatened by Agent Smith,) Merriman Lyon is off completing a separate part of the quest, which, of course, is a manifold undertaking that involves timing and a collision of events to work. In other words, Merriman, due to the separate and distinct role that he must fulfill in the quest, is otherwise indisposed when Will and the others need him. It is this inability to assist that forces Will and his friends to make up their own minds, to decide how to act on their own - to take responsibility for the development and fulfillment of the quest unto themselves. In `The Chronicles of Narnia,' we have yet another twist, as the closest parallel to `the mentor,' is none other than Aslan the Lion, i.e. C.S. Lewis' representation of the God-archetype. Aslan's narrative function is to force the main characters (both the Narnians and also the earth-children,) in short, to `grow up.' Unlike the other mentors, Aslan is not forced out of the way by death (although he does die,) nor by other situations (because as God, he can be simultaneously present in several places at once. Must be nice to be God. Anyways...) In the case of the Narnian Chronicles, Aslan is absent as a matter of deliberate choice. He's a guide for the characters from the sidelines, stepping in only at the very last resort to provide enigmatic counsel (he rarely gives a direct answer,) and sometimes not even in the last resort. Sometimes, the characters are entirely on their own, and they know it. The point is that the characters cannot develop until they're forced to assume responsibility for their own actions ? until they act morally of their own accord, and without the guidance of the Lion. Now, to return full circle to Harry Potter. Dumbledore is the mentor. Harry is the pupil. Like the other protagonists, Harry is currently caught up in a situation of destiny ? I believe he still possesses free will, and the capacity for choice, and therefore the must accept responsibility for the consequences of his actions. But due to predictions such as those from Trelawney, there is built into the story, as with the other epics, a certain capacity for prophecy and thus, predestination. However, one of Dumbledore's functions, I believe, is to reconcile these two, by instructing Harry about his past, about his destiny, and by tutoring him in self-reliance and proper decision- making. In Harry's case, Dumbledore is NOT always there to save the day, unlike many of the other mentors. Now, the way I see it, Magic Dishwasher suggests that Dumbledore is orchestrating events to facilitate Harry's growth, the point being that Harry has to learn to make choices and function on his own, independent of Dumbledore's guidance. Thus, we see that, unlike with, say, Gandalf, Dumbledore the Mentor rarely intervenes directly, and in some cases in the theory, he *can't* step in directly. I'm thinking of the GoF graveyard scene here, when Dumbledore is completely out of the loop and unable to help. Of course, proponents of the theory might suggest (and there is some canon to lend credence to this notion) that Dumbledore orchestrated the situation of the `sharing of wand cores,' which, via Priori Incantatem, saves Harry's butt. In this case, as with Gandalf and the promise he extracted early on from Samwise, MD!Dumbledore has taken advance steps to ensure the protagonist's safety. These steps are not a failsafe, but they do help Harry to survive. But remember ? even with all of the behind-the- scenes assistance, Harry wouldn't be able to survive unless he made choices, unless he acted on his own. The nature of action as a result of choice and free-will is, IMHO, integral to the HP storyline. As Dumbledore says at the end of GoF (and JKR asserts that this will set- up the remainder of the series): "Remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy who was good, and kind, and brave, because he strayed across the path of Lord Voldemort. Remember Cedric Diggory." GoF, US paperback, Ch.37, 724 Man, that gets me every time. Poor Cedric. Anyways, `choice' being the major theme of the final three books, one would have to accept that, as long as Dumbledore is the mentor/leader figure for our heroes, their ability to choose is stunted somewhat by his position of authority. Dumbledore is, after all, as we see from GoF Ch. 36, *still* orchestrating events. Therefore, on the question of whether or not Dumbledore will die, I think that the answer is a qualified `definitely.' I understand why you (Pickle Jimmy) would prefer that JKR forge ahead into her own brave new world of fantasy, but I just don't see it as a likely possibility. What makes these books good (IMHO) is exactly the way that the author retreads the old plotlines, and the way that she reuses the tried-and-true devices in a way that's new and fresh. Yes, she has made valuable and unique contributions to the genre, but I believe that these contributions are primarily the result of her uncanny talent for combining old themes and making them fresh. That said, we have been given several hints to suggest that Dumbledore will inevitably bite the bullet, or at least (like some of the other mentors,) will necessarily vanish for a while. First, we have the references (highlighted repeatedly in GoF) to Dumbledore's advancing age. Though not yet enfeebled, Dumbledore is noticeably getting older. I have difficulty accepting that this is simply an aesthetic point JKR is trying to make. I don't believe that the references to Dumbledore's age are meant for the GARBAGESCOW. Second, we have the interesting and unique take on ghosts in this series, suggesting that perhaps, if he has truly unfinished business (such as, oh, Voldemort's downfall,) Dumbledore might make an encore appearance after his death, ala Obi Wan. I personally reject this possibility as corny and already-done, but I do concede that it is a possibility, and one that is foreshadowed by the canon that we have. Third, we have the ominous foreshadowing of Dumbledore's inaccessibility at the conclusion of every book. In PS/SS, he *supposedly* heads off to London at the Ministry's request. In CoS, he's removed from the Headmastership of Hogwarts. In PoA, he's absent (although as MD would suggest, represented by Snape. My own take on this, Dark Ladles/DL, or Persil Automatic/PA (in message #51835,) is that he could alternately be represented by Lupin. Risti and Shauna proposed, in Sunlight Ultra/SU (in message #52129,) that perhaps Lupin and Snape are working together. The point is that Dumbledore's operating behind the scenes in the Shrieking Shack via AN agent. Finally, in GoF, we have the unexpected Portkey to the graveyard, where Dumbledore, for the first time, appears to be almost completely powerless to lend a hand. In GoF, we begin to see how much pre-planning Albus has done, with protections at the Dursleys, the confirmation that batty ole Mrs. Figg is connected with him, and possibly the arrangement of Priori Incantatem via the wand cores. And taking a closer look at the climax scenes for every novel, it is exactly Dumbledore the Mentor's proclivity for doling out information in perfect doses that enables Harry to overcome: -In PS/SS, it is the information about the Mirror of Erised. -In CoS, it's the timely delivery of Fawkes, with the Sorting Hat and Gryffindor's sword. -In PoA (if you accept MD/DL/SU) he's there via an agent in the Shrieking Shack. -In GoF, Harry's saved by Priori Incantatem, which presumably was orchestrated by Dumbledore long ago. In fact, as we learn in this scene, the phoenix song is a sound that Harry associates with Dumbledore. Of course, this supports the idea that Dumbledore is and always was laboring secretly to ensure Harry's eventual triumph. In each book, Dumbledore is absent during the climactic moment. In each book, this absence, and Harry's subsequent belief that he is totally on his own, is what pushes the plot towards its resolution. This illustrates several points to me: first, Dumbledore as Mentor cannot actually save the day on his own. His function is to prepare Harry to do that. Presumably, this is because ultimately, the power to force the plot through its final climax will rest solely with Harry. Second, Dumbledore as Mentor must provide just enough information to aid Harry without revealing the solution. To reveal the answer is to strip Harry of his responsibility to choose for himself. Third, Dumbledore as Mentor eventually will have to trust that he has given Harry the skills he needs to eventually prevail. In other words, at some point in a future novel, Dumbledore the Mentor must be out of the picture. Harry must be left on his own. There is one final thought I have to add, and it is oft repeated both on-list and in the books: Dumbledore is the only wizard Voldemort fears. IMHO, this is an essential bit of information, and an ominous bit of foreshadowing. If Dumbledore is the only wizard that Voldemort fears, then Harry is presumably fairly safe as long as he's under Dumbledore's tutelage. In other words, if the books are to make us realize how truly dangerous Voldemort is, then Harry must, at some point, be totally on his own, with no help of outside salvation, i.e. by or during book seven, Dumbledore must be taken out of the picture in order for Harry to assume the role for which he's destined. So, in conclusion, I believe that JKR will inevitable have to confront the age old `Death of the Mentor' theme. It is my hope, however, that she will accomplish this necessary step in a meaningful, surprising, and fresh new way. -Tom From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 00:34:25 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 00:34:25 -0000 Subject: James an Auror? and Link to Interview on Clearing Hagrid's Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59417 Phyllis wrote: While it's definitely possible that James was an Auror, I don't think it's probable. The job of an Auror is to fight against dark wizards. Barty Crouch Sr. authorized the use of the Unforgivable Curses against suspects, and gave them powers to kill rather than capture. But when Harry re- lives his parents' last moments when faced with a Dementor, we hear James saying to Lily that he'll hold off Voldemort. There's no indication that James tried to kill or to use an Unforgivable Curse against Voldemort. Now it could be that James did try such a curse and failed, and we're just not hearing about this in Harry's recollection (it is a very brief recollection, after all). But I don't think so. I, Tom, reply: Well, on this note, perhaps it's possible (although I'm just playing devil's advocate here and don't really think that James was an Auror) that Auror!James might have held to the same ethics as Mad- Eye Moody. Sirius tells us in GoF, Ch.27: "I'll say this for Moody, though, he never killed if he could help it.Always brought people in alive where possible. He was tough, but he never descended to the level of the Death Eaters." US paperback, p532. So, although Crouch granted new, more formidable powers (such as the Unforgivables) to the Aurors, I don't think that their use was anything like a standing order. It was likely up to the individual Auror to deal with the situation however they liked. The Unforgivables would have simply been an addition to the Auror's arsenal. So, whereas Moody was *allowed* to use the Unforgivables on suspected Death Eaters, he probably just didn't want to, and so wouldn't have unless it was absolutely necessary. In that light, Auror!James might not have wanted to use the Unforgivables if there was another alternative. Indeed, he might have exhausted all the alternatives to avoid using, say, Avada Kedavra on Voldemort. After all, Dumbledore confirms in PoA that James likely would have spared Pettigrew the same way Harry did. So, I interpret this as an indication of James' character - he *could* have killed, but probably wouldn't have wanted to. When "James" (actually, I never questioned that James was the voice Harry heard - interesting possibilities there, for sure) told Lily he'd hold Voldemort off, perhaps he had no intention to use an Unforgivable Curse on him. -Tom From helen at odegard.com Thu Jun 5 19:09:40 2003 From: helen at odegard.com (Helen R. Granberry) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 12:09:40 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs. Weasley's knitting In-Reply-To: <1054838972.3edf90bc160c8@webmail.bradley.edu> Message-ID: <000701c32b96$044008a0$6401a8c0@helenw1> No: HPFGUIDX 59418 However, I must say one thing about Mrs. Weasley and knitting and time. In my experience, that IS a time-consuming effort. For Christmas, I crochet Gryffindor,Slytherin, etc scarves for my friends who are HP fans. I only get a few done a year because of all my time commitments between 3 jobs and going to school full-time, however, it is just a scarf, and there is little concentration behind it. I don't have to worry about sizes or the fit of sweaters. But still it takes me about 5 hours to crochet one 4 foot long scarf, without tassels...and that is without breaks and crocheting relatively fast. A sweater requires MUCH more effort. And Mrs. Weasley does lettering and pictures on some of them. I would imagine it takes her quite a while to make just one. And she does it for at least 5 of her children annually. I applaud Mrs. Weasley for her efforts, I couldn't do it. Anyway that's my 2 knuts.... Amber Ah... I am convinced there is more to the sweaters than keeping the wee little Weasleys (and Harry) warm. I think she knits magical protections into them - magical Kevlar, 'bullet' proof vests. No proof just yet, but it is time consuming and it is telling that Ron doesn't wear his. Helen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From anna_mde at gmx.de Thu Jun 5 23:23:04 2003 From: anna_mde at gmx.de (anna_mde) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 23:23:04 -0000 Subject: Hermione And Bulgaria In-Reply-To: <00b001c32ba8$00ba1100$a40b9d3e@n1a2y2> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59419 Hi! If this turns out to be posted twice, I apologize. My computer does not like me today. Or maybe it is just by far too late ... Anyways ... Just a tiny little question about the whole Hermione-and-Bulgaria thing. Krum asked her after the second task, right? I assume she was actually considering it then. But think about what happened then: Krum attacked Fleur (Well, I assume he did.) and Cedric (that we know for sure) during the third task, if I remember correctly, he used 'Crucio' on Cedric. Now, taking that information into account, what kind of person does he seem to be? Someone you would go to visit over the summer? The question is only: Does Hermione know? Did Harry tell her? Or maybe Fleur? I am not too sure about that. What do you think? I am pretty sure that if she mentioned to Harry that she is actualy going to visit Krum, he (Harry) would probably tell her what he (Krum) did, wouldn't he? Anyways, I don't think that any responsible parent would let their 15 year old go to stay with a young man that they do not know and who is some years older that their daughter, in a foreign country no less. Plus, do you think that now that he-who-must-not-be-named is back she wants to go and her parents let her? I don't really think so. Anni From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Fri Jun 6 00:59:25 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 20:59:25 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione And Bulgaria Message-ID: <146.12f767c3.2c11416d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59420 In a message dated 6/5/2003 8:47:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, anna_mde at gmx.de writes: > Just a tiny little question about the whole Hermione-and-Bulgaria > thing. > > Krum asked her after the second task, right? I assume she was > actually considering it then. But think about what happened then: > Krum attacked Fleur (Well, I assume he did.) and Cedric (that we > know for sure) during the third task, if I remember correctly, he > used 'Crucio' on Cedric. > > Now, taking that information into account, what kind of person does > he seem to be? Someone you would go to visit over the summer? > > The question is only: Does Hermione know? Did Harry tell her? Or > maybe Fleur? I am not too sure about that. What do you think? > > I am pretty sure that if she mentioned to Harry that she is actualy > going to visit Krum, he (Harry) would probably tell her what he > (Krum) did, wouldn't he? > > Anyways, I don't think that any responsible parent would let their 15 > year old go to stay with a young man that they do not know and who is > some years older that their daughter, in a foreign country no less. > Plus, do you think that now that he-who-must-not-be-named is back > she wants to go and her parents let her? I don't really think so. On Krum's attack: He was under the Imperius Curse when he attacked them. I don't have GoF with me to give a direct quote, but I'm fairly certain Crouch!Moody told Harry he had put Krum under the Imperius Curse. If Harry told Hermione all the events that happened...I'm sure he would've included this bit of information. (Maybe he did...I really wish I had my book ^^;) On Hermione going to Bulgaria: I don't think they'd (her parents) let her go...by herself. I can see them going with her..meeting Viktor and his family, etc... you bring up a good point about LV though. If I were Hermione's parents I wouldn't let her go out of the house if I knew about LV's return (I wonder how much they know about LV, anyway..) Let alone let her go to Bulgaria or even back to Hogwarts. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ananke_2 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 22:28:35 2003 From: ananke_2 at yahoo.com (ananke_2) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 22:28:35 -0000 Subject: The meaning of 'order' was Re: Hopes for Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59421 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > However, we now have translations in two foreign languages that point > to fraternal organization or honor society. Anyone speak French, > Spanish, or German, who would like to add additional translations? Of > course, tranlation only has meaning if the language has separate words > for the various meanings of the word 'order'. > > Alos, It could be that translators just assumed that order=organization. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn The Polish title of book 5 is 'Harry Potter i Zakon Feniksa'. The word 'zakon' is basicly used to refer to a religious community (like the Benedictine order 'zakon benedyktynow'). However, it may also mean a secret society (like the Ancient Order of Druids 'starozytny zakon druidow'). It has no other meanings so I suppose the 'fraternal organisation or honour society (and secret?)'option is a little bit more supported again. I agree, however, that it may well be the misinterpretation of the title by the translator. Back to lurking,:-) Monika (who envies everyone who will be reading their copies of OOP on 21st June as she will have to wait almost a whole week to get it) From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 01:18:52 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 18:18:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' knife. Who attacked who? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030606011852.25440.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59422 --- Steve wrote: > So maybe I just talked > explained to by self; still > the whole thing seems pretty iffy if you ask > me. Lynn, Steve, Steve, Steve, such a suspicious mind. ;) Consider, the kids know that everyone considers Sirius to be a dangerous murder who's after Harry. Sirius has slashed the Fat Lady and was seen standing over Ron with a knife. Wouldn't it be natural for the kids to assume that Dumbledore would surmise that it was Sirius who attacked Ron and not some guy who was supposed to have been killed by Sirius years ago? I think their reaction was perfectly in keeping with the situation and how someone their age would deal with that situation. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From linlou43 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 02:26:30 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 02:26:30 -0000 Subject: Sirius' knife. Who attacked who? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59423 > > bboy:mn wrote: > > > > > > The Scene- > > > PoA Chapter 21 AmEd HB Pg 392: Dumbledore has just talked with > > > Sirius and is now in the hospital wing where he throws everyone > > > out so he can talk in private to Harry and Hermione. > > > Now the important one. > > > "-- Pettigrew attacked Ron, it wasn't Sirius --" > > > > > > ..edited... > > > > > > Are they desperately grasping at straws, or did Peter attack Ron? Izaskun replied: > > > > Pettigrew did attack Ron, he sort of stunned him in order to free > > himself and scape when they were getting out of the Shrieking Shack. bboy_mn added: > Oooooo... right, I forgot about that part. But on the other hand, why > did the person add that it was Peter NOT SIRIUS. Again, my memory > isn't the most trust worthy, but when was it implied during this time > that Sirius had attacked Ron? That's why I assumed it was the earlier > attack. > > Snape was unconsious the whole time, so he wouldn't know who attacked > who. I guess maybe when you look at who was assumed to be there; > Sirius, Lupin, Snape, Harry, Ron, and Hermione, that would only leave > Lupin or Sirius. So maybe I just talked explained to by self; still > the whole thing seems pretty iffy if you ask me. > > Just a thought. Now me: I can't seem to find my copy of PoA at the moment (GRRR) but I seem to recall that this conversation took place after Snape had told an abbreviated version of his side of the story. Whether he accuses Lupin of attacking Ron or not I can't recall, but I think if we consider the knowledge that HHR have about the history between Snape and Sirius that it was a pretty safe assumption that the whole story that Dumbledore almost certainly heard already included this accusation. To be sure, it was an assumption on Snape's part, and an incorrect assumption at that, but one that Fudge easily swallowed and would probably be believed by many others as well. It seems natural, after what happened in the shreiking shack, that HH would automatically jump to the conclusion that Sirius had been blamed for everything that happened on the grounds that night and feel the need to defend him. -Linda From yellows at aol.com Fri Jun 6 02:43:44 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 22:43:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The word "order" Message-ID: <29BF4A9E.5EEC2330.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59424 In a message dated 6/5/2003 6:37:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, Melody and Grey Wolf write: > How tragic. How much despair. Fawkes the champion of CoS > and GoF is > the very thing that lets everyone down. > > All for a ham and cheese on rye. OR! :) Perhaps Fawkes ordered his ham and cheese on rye -- because it's really a secret code meaning "I'd like the ham and cheese on rye that is actually Wormtail in disguise." Yes, folks. Fawkes turns against Dumbledore! In an amazing and distressing plot twist, we find that Fawkes is working for the Death Eaters. Readers are appaled. Then we find out the more horrible truth: Percy has discovered this plan of Fawkes' first, while working with the MoM, and he has changed *himself* into a ham and cheese on rye to infiltrate the bad guys' lair. Unfortunately, Fawkes takes the Percy!Wormtail sandwich to Voldemort, and Voldemort is enraged. He can tell without even transfiguring the sandwich back to a person that it is not Wormtail. Angry, and also very hungry, Voldemort... are you ready for this? EATS PERCY WEASLEY. Fawkes is overcome with grief and hurries back to Dumbledore, confesses all, and dies of despair (only to be reborn a good guy five minutes later). THAT's the Order of the Phoenix. :) Whaddya think? Brief Chronicles From patricia at obscure.org Fri Jun 6 02:45:39 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 22:45:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione And Bulgaria In-Reply-To: <00b001c32ba8$00ba1100$a40b9d3e@n1a2y2> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59425 On Thu, 5 Jun 2003 m.bockermann at t-online.de wrote: > So > there is ample opportunity for the Trio to meet some interesting folks on > their travel. I say the Trio, because I can't see Ron letting Hermione go > and not coming along. Wether there is something between Ron and Hermione or > he is only warning her against Viktor because Viktor is from Durmstrang - in > both scenarios I believe that Ron would want to accompany her. I wouldn't be > surprized if Harry would somehow be able to come along and still be > protected from Voldemort without the Dursley's presense... There's one problem with the whole trio going to Bulgaria to visit Victor -- Ron and Harry haven't been invited. They very well might *want* to go with Hermione, for a variety of reasons, but you can't just invite yourself to someone else's house for an extended stay, especially someone you hardly know. And I really don't think Victor is going to be inclined to invite Harry to tag along since he was already worried in GoF that Harry posed a threat to his romantic interest in Hermione. So either Hermione is going without Ron and Harry (though possibly with her parents, if they have any sense) or she's not going at all. I don't see any way Ron and Harry are getting a trip to Bulgaria out of the deal. As for Ron not "letting Hermione go and not coming along," well, he really doesn't get any say in the matter. He's not her boyfriend (though he might want to be), he's not her parent and he's not her chaperone. His wishes really aren't relevant in planning Hermione's summer vacations. She gets to make her own decisions, and he just gets to sit and stew about them after the fact. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From yellows at aol.com Fri Jun 6 03:08:17 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 23:08:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MAGIC DISWASHER and Dumbledore Dead Message-ID: <024C3734.4D3A1645.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59426 In a message dated 6/5/2003 6:53:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, Tom writes: > So, in conclusion, I believe that JKR will inevitable have to > confront the age old `Death of the Mentor' theme. It is my > hope, > however, that she will accomplish this necessary step in a > meaningful, surprising, and fresh new way. :) Tom, that was an awesome post. Of course, as I said earlier, this is exactly how I feel about Dumbledore's demise. I don't believe it's meant for Book 5; I can see it happening a bit later -- by the end of Book 6. But you brought up some good points that ought to be considered: If Voldemort fears Dumbledore, then Harry is never in the kind of danger that would really make us scared for him unless Dumbledore is finally overcome. Harry can't be our hero who wins the day over Voldemort until he has become the only wizard Voldemort fears. If the only wizard Voldemort fears is still Dumbledore by the end of the series, then Dumbledore ought to be the one to defeat him. So, beyond the basic idea of the "Death of the Mentor," which Tom illustrated in many excellent ways throughout the Fantasy/SF genres, we know that, specific to the Harry Potter story, Dumbledore is in the way of Harry's "time to shine." Dumbledore must show Harry how to be strong against Voldemort and how to ultimately defeat evil. What better place to set this series than in a school? :) Also, Tom mentioned the possibility that Dumbledore will re-appear after his death as a ghost. I hadn't thought of that before, and I can see it happening. I hate to refer to sketchy quotes without sources, but I *think* I read somewhere that JKR said we'd learn more about why some wizards become ghosts and others don't. I just checked the Internet for that quote and am unable to find it, so unless you know better than I, keep in mind that it may be bogus. If it is true canon, though, it is possible she alluded to something she'll show us later in the series. She may know that she'll need to explain why Dumbledore either can or can't come back to haunt Hogwarts, and she may be planning to illustrate the specifics of the ghost-world for that reason. Brief Chronicles From kemp at arcom.com.au Fri Jun 6 04:47:04 2003 From: kemp at arcom.com.au (pickle_jimmy) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 04:47:04 -0000 Subject: MAGIC DISWASHER and Dumbledore Dead In-Reply-To: <024C3734.4D3A1645.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59427 Brief Chronicles wrote: If Voldemort fears Dumbledore, then Harry is never in the kind of danger that would really make us scared for him unless Dumbledore is finally overcome. Harry can't be our hero who wins the day over Voldemort until he has become the only wizard Voldemort fears. If the only wizard Voldemort fears is still Dumbledore by the end of the series, then Dumbledore ought to be the one to defeat him. Back to me again... Let me say at the outset - I was in awe of Tom's 22k post on the whole Mentor thing. I thought I had gone OT when I raised StarWars and LOTR, but I wasn't in Tom's League. Now my question to Brief Chronicles (see above statement). Dumbledore has been alive through the first four books, and I can't see where this has taken away from Harry's conquests. When Harry was in the Graveyard with Voldemort, it wasn't Dumbledore that saved the day. I didn't think Harry was in less danger because of the existance of Dumbledore. And, Harry's escape wasn't diminished due to the fact that Dumbledore hadn't died yet. When Harry was in the Chamber with TR and the Basalisk, I didn't think - not to fear, Dumbledore will save him, he's the only one Voldemort fears. When Harry was facing Quirrellmort, Dumbledore wasn't by his side - he was in London. I can't see why Dumbledore has to die to make us fear for Harry's life - don't we do enough of that already? And, will Voldemort ever fear Harry the way he fears Dumbledore anyway? Up till now he has been thwarted at each of their encounters, and yet each time he can find some justification for why he lost - I didn't take in to account your mother's sacrifice, I didn't take into account our "brother" wands. Harry is just an insect. A bug to be squashed on his way to his ultimate goal. Something that he holds in very low esteem until it leads to his final defeat. And, wouldn't we see Harry as a Greater wizard if he were able to shine while Dumbledore was alive rather than having to wait till he dies? I would rather be seen to be the best in my field because of my abilities, not because I *was* second best and inherited the position of best through the death of the champion. So again - I loved the discussion, and many a fine point and parallel were raised, but I will stick (for the time being) with my belief that Dumbledore wont die. I don't see it being necessary to Harry's growth. I wont think less of Harry if he defeats Voldemort with Dumbledore alive. His safety isn't certain with Dumbledore alive anyway (you don't need to kill him off for me to worry for Harry's safety). I certianly can't see the point of killing him off as a plot device only to have him keep "pulling the strings" from beyond the grave. Cheers Pickle Jimmy From distractedone at comcast.net Fri Jun 6 04:58:29 2003 From: distractedone at comcast.net (Merlin) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 00:58:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Much Ado About Money References: Message-ID: <013d01c32be8$49a06000$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59428 > bboy_mn said: > > Those Damn Robes- > Others have speculated that there may have been some magical method of > altering the robes to make them look better, and considering all that > magic can do, I agree. But Molly certainly didn't have time, and Ron > never asked for help. I think that is the key. Ron can be a bit > stubborn (understatement), and Ron and Harry both have a very large > independant streak, not to mention a health dose of excess pride. Actually Ron only found out about the dress robes the night before they left for Hogwarts while packing his school supplies. He then mistakes them for one of Ginny's dresses. Any 14 year old boy would be horrified to find out that they had to where maroon velvet dress robes with frilly lace collar and cuffs. Ron then does what anyone at that age would do in his situation, he argues with his mother. The next morning the whole Mad Eye Moody ordeal was going on and I doubt that there would have been time to do anything anyways. Merlin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From distractedone at comcast.net Fri Jun 6 05:09:17 2003 From: distractedone at comcast.net (Merlin) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 01:09:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James an Auror? and Link to Interview on Clearing Hagrid's Name References: Message-ID: <014301c32be9$c82bbdb0$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59429 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Peggy wrote: >> >> >> Do we actually know that who he heard was James? I know Harry >> believes it was James, but Lupin seemed suprised that Harry thought >> that he heard Jame's voice. He believed the voice that he heard >> telling Lily to take Harry and run was his father's, but we don't >> know if it was. >> >> Harry heard Jame's voice in the grave yard sceen, after he came out >> of the wand. Though there was nothing said about his voice. There >> was no comaprison made. >> >> It could have been James who told Lily to go, but I don't think we >> can say that for certain. > > To which -- Finwitch replied: > > You can never be 100% certain about anything in fantasy. Lupin's > surprise - well, that Harry _remembers_ things from so far in his > past, that he heard anything at all... Or that he _heard_ him, but > didn't see? Or just Harry telling him what he goes trough when > dementors come near him? > >I think Harry's right and it _is_ his father... Or could all the clues about switching spells that J.K. Rowlings is throwing out through all four of the books so far be telling us that maybe it was James body but not actually James. Perhaps Lilly performed a switching spell on James and Remus, since in PoA Remus didn't seem to upset when Sirius confirmed that he and James thought that Remus was the traitor in front of Peter. Could it have been a setup against Peter gone bad? Hopefully we will find out in book 5 when Dumbledore says he is going to tell Harry everything he should have told him 5 years ago. Merlin Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Fri Jun 6 05:09:50 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (Arcum Dagsson) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 22:09:50 -0700 Subject: [OT] Possible virus (was Re: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: moscow times) Message-ID: <6538671ACC545AA40B6E4EE5CA6A2191@arcum_dagsson.celticwind.zzn.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59430 I'm not sure if anyone else on this list received a message from Carol Bainbridge with what appears to be a random quote from the HPForGrownups group, and a *.scr file, but this bears all the hallmarks of a virus going through Carols address book, and I thought I'd reccommend that anyone who hasn't opened it refrain. A .scr file is a screensaver format which is a fairly common format for e-mail viruses. Oh, and Carol, I just thought I'd make sure you know about the possible (probable) virus on your system, in case you hadn't already found out about it... --Arcum Get your Free E-mail at http://celticwind.zzn.com ___________________________________________________________ Get your own Web-based E-mail Service at http://www.zzn.com From chimedog at aol.com Fri Jun 6 02:15:37 2003 From: chimedog at aol.com (chimedog at aol.com) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 22:15:37 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MAGIC DISWASHER and Dumbledore Dead Message-ID: <242E0E78.0C79D639.006EF0D0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59431 In a message dated 6/5/2003 6:53:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, thomasmwall at yahoo.com writes: > Because the hero knows that the > mentor can save the day, the hero doesn't (and sometimes can't) take > the initiative. The hero waits for the mentor's say-so, or for the > mentor's intervention when things get too sticky. In other words, the > hero can't ever be fully developed until the mentor is out of the > picture. Only then can the hero begin to realize his/her full > potential. Only then does the hero take fate by the reins > and start > to understand. This is hardly applicable to Harry Potter, who has not acted at the initiative of AD, but on his own. Likewise, although he may have the assistance of others, he not only creates his own mess, but also cleans it up himself, as in the Chamber of Secrets. "Chimedog" From lb140900 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 01:36:38 2003 From: lb140900 at yahoo.com (Louis Badalament) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 01:36:38 -0000 Subject: Fleur Delacour And Bill Weasely Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59432 Greetings Again. Before we begin, let me refresh all your memories with this little quote from Goblet of Fire; "Fleur Delacour, Harry noticed, was eyeing Bill with great interest over her mother's shoulder. Harry could tell she had no objection whatsoever to long hair or earrings with fangs on them." So... what to make of this 'great interest' of Fleur's. Love At First Sight? Cursory Intrigue? Flavor Of The Week? Do you think we can look forward to Fleur 'turning on the old charm' for the eldest Weasely brother? As if the Burrow isn't crowded enough already without all the boys getting girlfriends! Louis Badalament From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 05:59:45 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 05:59:45 -0000 Subject: Much Ado About Money In-Reply-To: <013d01c32be8$49a06000$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59433 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Merlin wrote: > > bboy_mn said: > > > > Those Damn Robes- > > ...edited... Ron never asked for help. .... > > Actually Ron only found out about the dress robes the night before > they left for Hogwarts while packing his school supplies. > ...edited... > > > Merlin > bboy_mn: Absolutely true, but he also had 4 months between Sept. 1 and Dec 25 to ask someone for help; McGonagall, Hermione, Dobby, any house elf, any teacher, any student... He didn't even search for a solution, he just hid the robes and ignored them. Although, I must confess that is pretty typical behavior for a kid. How many parents have had their kids come to them at 9pm and say, I have to have this project (science project, costume, etc...) for school tomorrow? Although, it would have messed up the plot, Ron could have asked for help with is wand too. He could have asked McGonagall, Hagrid (he has experience with broken and possibly mended wands), the charms teacher (knows a lot about wands), the DADA teacher (probably familiar with emergency repairs), .... He couldn't go himself, but it's possible the the wizard's instrument shop in Hogsmeade might have been able to repair it for a very small fee. But Ooohhhh Nnnooooo not Ronikins. Like I said... You do not get what you do not ask for. Just a thought. bboy_mn From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Jun 6 06:11:53 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 23:11:53 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Much Ado About Money In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17928591997.20030605231153@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 59434 Hi, Thursday, June 05, 2003, 10:59:45 PM, bboy_mn at yahoo.com wrote: > Like I said... > You do not get what you do not ask for. Well, maybe not generally, but Harry does gets quite frequently ;) Neither of the trio ask for help, when they need it. Not Hermione, not Harry and Ron doesn't either. Otherwise the books would be very different, and all adventures and dangers would be handled by the adults :) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our pet rabbits: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be Fri Jun 6 10:24:04 2003 From: vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be (vicky_gwosdz) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 10:24:04 -0000 Subject: OOP: The mirror of Erised Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59435 I know I'm coming back to the supposed power of the mirror beyond the mere reflection of desires (a theory which I seem to be the only one to support ;-)). But in PS, when Ron looks in the mirror, he sees himself amongst other things as captain of the Quidditch team. Now, I remember reading on some site (forgot which one) that in book 5 (or maybe a later book), Ron would be watcher for the Quidditch team. If he ends up captain of the team, then this might mean that the mirror does do more then just reflect wishes. Any thoughts? Vicky (who won't let go of the mirror) From vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be Fri Jun 6 10:58:27 2003 From: vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be (vicky_gwosdz) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 10:58:27 -0000 Subject: James an Auror? and Link to Interview on Clearing Hagrid's Name In-Reply-To: <20030605185222.35027.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59436 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, robert haberfield wrote: > > Reading this chain I wondered if the male voice that Harry hears near Dementor's is Lupins? Lupin is a Wearwolf, can he be killed by an AK curse? I thought it was only silver that kills a WW. > Me again: I don't think that Lupin would have survived as such against an AK curse. It would make an easy solution. I think that while he is in his human form, he can be killed by the AK curse, while when he is in his werewolf form it takes something silver. My 2 cts, Vicky From julia_yatsenko at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 6 11:56:24 2003 From: julia_yatsenko at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Julia=20Yatsenko?=) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 12:56:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione And Bulgaria In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030606115624.44333.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59437 Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: I agree that Harry and Ron won't be invited to join Hermione in her trip to Bulgaria. However I've got an idea what they can do -- let's imagine that Hermione goes to Bulgaria. Ron is enraged. He and Harry make a 'plan'. They persuade Weasleys to go and visit Charlie in Romania (which borders on Bulgaria) or let them two go there. In Romania they have multiple choices how to affect the situation: they can either visit Hermi and Krum or make Hermione join them instead! I'm sure Ron will find a way to prevent Krum&Hermione relationship. Romania/Bulgaria can be that 'new' place where Harry is supposed to go in the Book 5. What do you think? (well i think it's not the most probable scenario, but anyway quite possible...) thanx for your attention Juli (lurker!) From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 15:24:35 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 15:24:35 -0000 Subject: James an Auror? and James-Remus Switch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59438 I originally wrote that I do not believe James was once an Auror because, based on what Harry hears when practicing the Patronus Charm, James did not attempt to fight Voldemort when he attacked their home in Godric's Hollow. To which Peggy responded: > Do we actually know that who he heard was James? I know Harry > believes it was James, but Lupin seemed surprised that Harry > thought that he heard James's voice. Now me: Lupin's voice is described as "strange" when he asks Harry: "You heard James?" I think "strange" can be (and has been!) interpreted in various ways. It could mean surprised, as Peggy suggested, which could mean that Lupin knows Harry is mistaken in thinking it is James' voice. Or it could mean what Harry takes it to mean ? that Lupin once knew his father. Or (as I think) it could be a reflection of Lupin's guilt that he knows Sirius is an animagus but isn't telling anyone because it would implicate himself. I think that, while I recognize that the two times Harry has heard his father's voice (when he's practicing the Patronus Charm and in the graveyard), the voice hasn't been crystal-clear, I still think Harry would have noticed if they didn't sound the same. If I had only heard my father's voice once since I was a baby, I would treasure that sound, and I think Harry did as well. Merlin wrote: > Or could all the clues about switching spells that J.K. Rowling is > throwing out through all four of the books so far be telling us > that maybe it was James body but not actually James. Me again: I really don't believe James and Remus changed bodies. JKR has said that readers like to be "tricked, not conned," (see: http://www.readersdigest.co.uk/magazine/Rowling3.htm) and I would view a James-Remus switching spell as a con. Tom wrote: > In that light, Auror!James might not have wanted to use the > Unforgivables if there was another alternative. Indeed, he might > have exhausted all the alternatives to avoid using, say, Avada > Kedavra on Voldemort. Me again: This is an excellent point. I think one of the points JKR is trying to make in this series is that intentional killing is wrong, even if you are defending yourself against someone who is trying to kill you. I agree that if James was an Auror, he would have tried not to use the AK or any of the other curses if he was able to. However, I still think the lack of James using any defensive spell at all (such as "Expelliarmus") when Voldemort attacks is revealing. Also, James and Lily went into hiding when they learned that Voldemort was after them ? James didn't go seeking Voldemort. I think if James were an Auror, he would have been trying to hunt Voldemort down rather than hiding from him. ~Phyllis who has spent the entire week writing three memos that haven't gone anywhere, and is trying to work up the motivation to start on a fourth From yellows at aol.com Fri Jun 6 15:30:59 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:30:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MAGIC DISWASHER and Dumbledore Dead Message-ID: <1ac.15d88933.2c120db3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59439 In a message dated 6/6/2003 12:47:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, Pickle Jimmy writes: > And, will Voldemort ever fear Harry the way he fears Dumbledore > anyway? Up till now he has been thwarted at each of their encounters, > and yet each time he can find some justification for why he lost - I > didn't take in to account your mother's sacrifice, I didn't take into > account our "brother" wands. Harry is just an insect. A bug to be > squashed on his way to his ultimate goal. Something that he holds in > very low esteem until it leads to his final defeat. > > And, wouldn't we see Harry as a Greater wizard if he were able to > shine while Dumbledore was alive rather than having to wait till he > dies? I would rather be seen to be the best in my field because of my > abilities, not because I *was* second best and inherited the position > of best through the death of the champion. I understand where you're coming from. Why, if Harry can defeat Voldemort while away from the immediate safety of Dumbledore, do we need to kill off Dumbledore at all? Of course, it doesn't *have* to happen. But my opinion is that is definitely will, and that it should. You see, if Dumbledore continues to live, and Voldemort continues to fear only him, then Harry will always be second-best. He won't even inherit a higher position. He'll just be second to Dumbledore and that's not why we're hearing Harry's story. We're hearing Harry's story because it's the story of the "chosen one" (for lack of a better cheesy term) in the WW who will rise above all sorts of horrible dangers and set-backs, as is the story of most heroes in the fantasy genre (or in others, for that matter). Harry will have to live through the death of Dumbledore, a painful and scary realization that he no longer has that protection, in order to become the hero we're waiting to see him become. Dumbledore is preparing him for that. Imagine, the only wizard that Voldemort really fears is creating an even more powerful wizard out of Harry to rise above him after Dumbledore passes on. That's what I believe we're all reading the series to finally see and that's why I'll be very surprised if JKR chooses not to kill Dumbledore later on. Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 15:32:58 2003 From: Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com (newdella) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 15:32:58 -0000 Subject: James an Auror? and Link to Interview on Clearing Hagrid's Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59440 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: > After all, Dumbledore confirms in PoA that James likely would have > spared Pettigrew the same way Harry did. So, I interpret this as an > indication of James' character - he *could* have killed, but > probably wouldn't have wanted to. When "James" (actually, I never > questioned that James was the voice Harry heard - interesting > possibilities there, for sure) told Lily he'd hold Voldemort off, > perhaps he had no intention to use an Unforgivable Curse on him. > > -Tom Rosebeth: Tom, while I agree with quite a bit of your post I have to disagree with the idea that James wouldn't use the AK on LV. There has been a lot of discussion lately about a mothers love for her child. Why not the same for a father's love? I don't doubt that the voice that Harry hears is James. James knows that LV is coming to destroy his family. It's my belief that James is going to try to whatever he can to save them, and if that means an Unforgivable Curse, then so be it. Like a gunfight in the old west LV was just faster. Rosebeth From yellows at aol.com Fri Jun 6 16:05:41 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 12:05:41 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James an Auror? and Link to Interview on Clearing Hag... Message-ID: <199.1b557286.2c1215d5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59441 In a message dated 6/6/2003 11:37:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, Rosebeth writes: > There has been a > lot of discussion lately about a mothers love for her child. Why not > the same for a father's love? > > I don't doubt that the voice that Harry hears is James. James knows > that LV is coming to destroy his family. It's my belief that James > is going to try to whatever he can to save them, and if that means an > Unforgivable Curse, then so be it. Like a gunfight in the old west > LV was just faster. I absolutely agree that James loved Harry as much as Lily did. He died for Harry as well. I believe the only reason we focus more on Lily's sacrifice is that Lily transfered something special to Harry when was in physical contact with him as she died. But James sacrificed himself to try to save both Harry and Lily. My question is, what did James do and what did Lily do other than die? Did James have some sort of plan that would hold Voldemort back? Did Lily only run to the crib and cradle Harry in her arms, or did she try to run out a back door? Of course, I look at their deaths as very sad and I think highly of both characters. But I try to put myself in that situation and I wonder: would I panic and stand paralyzed over my child like a deer in headlights? Would I run for it? Or would I take some sort of defensive position to save my family, like using Expelliarmus? James tried to stall Voldemort. If he were an Auror, I agree with Phyllis and a number of others who posted that he would have been ready with *something* to stop Voldemort. But even Harry, Ron, and Hermione, who are not Aurors, would know to cast a defensive spell. Why wouldn't James and Lily give it a try? Did they really just stand there and die, as it seems? Are we missing some information about that night and what they did? Or did they accept that there was nothing they could do? Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rayheuer3 at aol.com Fri Jun 6 16:26:50 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 12:26:50 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP Currency Converter @ CNN (was) Money, Trips, Cars,... Message-ID: <4d.3073982d.2c121aca@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59442 bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes: > I believe this may have come of the cover of some book that had the > price in both dollars and galleons, but was obviously in error. Given > the numbers they are using, I suspect they took the Galleon to Pound > rate and used it as the Galleon to Dollar rate. I seriously doubt that they found even a mass-market paperback of any Harry Potter book for $3.99. More likely they found a British paperback that said "?3.99 [14 Sickles, 3 Knuts)" and figured any adult lame enough to be interested in Harry Potter wouldn't care about the difference. Although I dispute your implication that the Galleon to Dollar rate can only be determined by converting Galleons to Pounds and then Pounds to Dollars, we do agree on two things: 1. One Galleon is roughly equal to ?5 or $7.50 2. The CNN converter program is so wildly inaccurate as to be useless. -- Ray "Money makes the world go 'round" Cabaret [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yellows at aol.com Fri Jun 6 16:53:57 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 12:53:57 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP Currency Converter @ CNN (was) Money, Trips, Cars,... Message-ID: <18e.1b560b0c.2c122125@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59443 In a message dated 6/6/2003 12:42:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, Ray writes: > Although I dispute your implication that the Galleon to Dollar rate can > only > be determined by converting Galleons to Pounds and then Pounds to Dollars, > we > do agree on two things: > > 1. One Galleon is roughly equal to ?5 or $7.50 > 2. The CNN converter program is so wildly inaccurate as to be useless. I wonder if CNN would like to know how off they are. Most journalists take their jobs very seriously and go to great lengths to ensure that *all* information, no matter how trivial, is accurate (Rita Skeeter and a handful of Muggle reporters are exceptions, of course). If a galleon is really $7.50 US dollars, and CNN is publishing that it's about $3 less than that, maybe someone should tell them. :) Or maybe we should stay quiet lest we all look like raging-lunatic, Harry Potter fans. :) Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 17:01:43 2003 From: honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com (Sabrina Mergner) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 19:01:43 +0200 Subject: Tomboy Lily/Dursleys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59444 I don't remember who, but somebody brought up that the only female friend of Lily who could have gone against Dumbledore's decision to leave Harry at the Dursleys would be his godmother. Now my question: Where is this godmother? I know there has never been any mention of her in the books but where I live (Germany) every child usually has two or even three godparents. Usually one female and one male and from each side of its parents. As Sirius was obviously from James' side, it is only logical that there should be a godmother from Lily's side around. In my family the godparent usually is the sibling of the parent, sometimes the grandparent of the kid. And as far as we know Petunia is the only sister Lily had. What if Petunia is Harry's godmother and she just never told him? Okay, now you say that Petunia hates Lily and has always hated her and hadn't seen her for ages at the beginning of PS/SS, BUT: Couldn't it be that her parents or perhaps a grandmother or somebody similar (who is dead by now) could have badgered her into being the godmother? After the christening she would still have severed all ties with Lily and her family until Harry turned up at her doorstep. Which would then give a bit of a new spin as to why the Dursleys didn't give Harry to an orphanage. Sabrina Sirius/Harry site: www.geocities.com/canismajorarchive/intro.html http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LupinxHarry _________________________________________________________________ MSN Hotmail - Absolut kostenfrei! Der weltweit grte E-Mail-Anbieter im Netz: http://www.msn.de/hotmail From linlou43 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 17:31:44 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 17:31:44 -0000 Subject: Tomboy Lily/Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59445 Sabrina wrote: > And as far as we know Petunia is the only sister > Lily had. What if Petunia is Harry's godmother and she just never told him? > Okay, now you say that Petunia hates Lily and has always hated her and > hadn't seen her for ages at the beginning of PS/SS, BUT: Couldn't it be that > her parents or perhaps a grandmother or somebody similar (who is dead by > now) could have badgered her into being the godmother? After the christening > she would still have severed all ties with Lily and her family until Harry > turned up at her doorstep. > Which would then give a bit of a new spin as to why the Dursleys didn't give > Harry to an orphanage. Linda adds: This actually has cannon support. In the first chapter of SS/PS we are told that Petunia and Vernon know of Lily and James' son, so there has to have been some contact within the two years before Harry was left on their doorstep. For arguments sake I am including the extra year in case Petunia was just aware of the pregnancy, although she did know that the child was a boy and even what he was named. Somehow I doubt that Lily and James would have had an ultrasound done and called Petunia with the news they were having a boy so... This is making more and more sense to me as I type. Maybe the sisters weren't as estranged as we were led to believe. Hmmmmm... -Linda From rhaberfield at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 6 17:40:51 2003 From: rhaberfield at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?robert=20haberfield?=) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 18:40:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tomboy Lily/Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030606174051.58687.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59446 Sabrina Mergner wrote: Sabrina wrote I don't remember who, but somebody brought up that the only female friend of Lily who could have gone against Dumbledore's decision to leave Harry at the Dursleys would be his godmother. Now my question: Where is this godmother? I know there has never been any mention of her in the books < > What if Petunia is Harry's godmother and she just never told him? ME If we are looking for a godmother for Harry my vote would be for Arrabella Fig. Her living so close by and being Known by the Dursley's is a bit "strange" Robert the old Sirius/Harry site: www.geocities.com/canismajorarchive/intro.html http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LupinxHarry _________________________________________________________________ MSN Hotmail - Absolut kostenfrei! Der weltweit gr??te E-Mail-Anbieter im Netz: http://www.msn.de/hotmail Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be Fri Jun 6 14:47:40 2003 From: vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be (vicky_gwosdz) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:47:40 -0000 Subject: OOP: The mirror of Erised In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59447 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vicky_gwosdz" wrote: > I know I'm coming back to the supposed power of the mirror beyond > the > mere reflection of desires (a theory which I seem to be the only > one to support ;-)). > > But in PS, when Ron looks in the mirror, he sees himself amongst > other things as captain of the Quidditch team. Now, I remember > reading on some site (forgot which one) that in > book 5 (or maybe a later book), Ron would be watcher for the > Quidditch team. > If he ends up captain of the team, then this might mean that the > mirror does do more then just reflect wishes. > > Any thoughts? > > Vicky > (who won't let go of the mirror) OK, I'll correct my post immediately, but it should be keeper and not watcher. ;-) My mistake! Vicky From yellows at aol.com Fri Jun 6 17:43:48 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:43:48 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's godparents (was Tomboy Lily/Dursleys) Message-ID: <1ed.a6be0e1.2c122cd4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59448 In a message dated 6/6/2003 1:06:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, Sabrina writes: > Now my question: Where is this godmother? I know there has never been any > mention of her in the books but where I live (Germany) every child usually > has two or even three godparents. Usually one female and one male and from > each side of its parents. As Sirius was obviously from James' side, it is > only logical that there should be a godmother from Lily's side around. > In my family the godparent usually is the sibling of the parent, sometimes > the grandparent of the kid. And as far as we know Petunia is the only sister > > Lily had. What if Petunia is Harry's godmother and she just never told him? > Okay, now you say that Petunia hates Lily and has always hated her and > hadn't seen her for ages at the beginning of PS/SS, BUT: Couldn't it be that > > her parents or perhaps a grandmother or somebody similar (who is dead by > now) could have badgered her into being the godmother? After the christening > > she would still have severed all ties with Lily and her family until Harry > turned up at her doorstep. Where I come from, (Florida, USA), very few people have godparents at all. I have none. I can't think of any friends who have. My college roommate from Puerto Rico became the godmother to her best friend's child, and my friends and I thought it was an incredibly special event, since we rarely see things like that happen. But I'm not British, and I am aware that we do things differently, so godparents could be much more popular over there. Also, of course, I accept that my personal experience does not represent the entire United States. :) My friends and I could be anomalies. My other issue is related to canon, though. In SS, I believe the impression is given that Petunia and Lily have no spoken for a long time, since before Harry was born (oh, WHERE is my book?). Two questions come up with your interpretation of Petunia being a godmother: First, wouldn't that mean that Petunia came into contact with Lily again only about 14 months before having to adopt Harry into her family? Of course, that might account for how she has knowledge of the child at all, and how she remembers his name when Vernon asks her what Harry was called. Second, that brings up the grandparent issue again. If Mrs. Evans begged Petunia to become Harry's godmother, then what happened to Mrs. Evans? Why didn't Harry go to live with her? By this understanding, Mrs. Evans was alive about a year before Lily and James were murdered. The grandparent problem bothers me all the time. James and Lily died very young. It isn't likely that their parents were already dead unless Voldemort or someone came for them, and if we go with the idea that the Evans were *not* a part of the WW, then why would Voldemort come for them at all? Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From slaross at total.net Fri Jun 6 17:31:22 2003 From: slaross at total.net (tiggereh1987) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 17:31:22 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?RE:_OOP_=96_the_Mirror_of_Erised?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59449 Vicky writes: in PS, when Ron looks in the mirror, he sees himself amongst other things as captain of the Quidditch team. Now, I remember reading on some site (forgot which one) that in book 5 (or maybe a later book), Ron would be watcher for the Quidditch team. If he ends up captain of the team, then this might mean that the mirror does do more then just reflect wishes. I (Leigh) writes: Ooh, good one ? even got me to retire from lurking! I just finished rereading PS (in prep for OOP), and IIRC, there is a conversation between Harry and Ron regarding whether the mirror predicts the future. Perhaps the mirror inspires people (who don't waste away looking in the mirror, that is) into greater things than they originally thought possible. Ron sees himself as Head Boy, Quidditch captain and holding the House Cup. Perhaps seeing himself doing these things would inspire him to reach further than he would have when he joins the Quidditch team in OOP. As far as inspiring Harry, perhaps in a future book (OOP maybe?) Harry could recognize someone in the mirror Leigh Ross (awaiting the release date, which is only 3 days before her due date and hopes that she will get her copy from Amazon.ca before her labour starts.) "It is not our abilities that tell us what we truly are ... it is our choices. " Albus Dumbledore "The truth. It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution." Albus Dumbledore "You ought to be more careful. People with think you're.. up..to something." Severus Snape "Constant Vigilence!" Mad-Eye Moody "I solemnly swear that I am up to no good."George Weasley Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 17:47:44 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 10:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tomboy Lily/Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030606174744.66905.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59450 Sabrina wrote: > And as far as we know Petunia is the only sister > Lily had. What if Petunia is Harry's godmother and she just never told him? > Okay, now you say that Petunia hates Lily and has always hated her and > hadn't seen her for ages at the beginning of PS/SS, BUT: Couldn't it be that > her parents or perhaps a grandmother or somebody similar (who is dead by > now) could have badgered her into being the godmother? After the christening > she would still have severed all ties with Lily and her family until Harry > turned up at her doorstep. > Which would then give a bit of a new spin as to why the Dursleys didn't give > Harry to an orphanage. Linda adds: This actually has cannon support. In the first chapter of SS/PS we are told that Petunia and Vernon know of Lily and James' son, so there has to have been some contact within the two years before Harry was left on their doorstep. For arguments sake I am including the extra year in case Petunia was just aware of the pregnancy, although she did know that the child was a boy and even what he was named. Somehow I doubt that Lily and James would have had an ultrasound done and called Petunia with the news they were having a boy so... This is making more and more sense to me as I type. Maybe the sisters weren't as estranged as we were led to believe. Hmmmmm... -Linda ME: I can't buy this. Petunia's attitude towards her sister and their treatment of Harry is so extreme that they had to have been highly estranged. But could Petunia have been baggered to being Harry's Godmother? Possibly. Only one problem. It takes two to play here. Could Lily have been baggered into LETTING Petunia be his Godmother. This one I find very doubtful indeed. Although we have never seen James or Lily alive, I just have a very strong feeling that Lily was far too good and loving (well she DID sacrafice her life for Harry) a mother to have subjected him to having a Godmother like that! As to Petunia knowing about Harry, there could well have been either family or even family friends who could have told her. Also, I doubt there was absolutely no contact between the two. Maybe not very friendly contact but there could have been some without going so far as to making her the Godmother! Huggs Becky Yahoo! 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Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From brookeshanks at mugglenet.com Fri Jun 6 16:45:11 2003 From: brookeshanks at mugglenet.com (Brooke) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 16:45:11 -0000 Subject: Harry's Scar... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59451 hey fellow HP fans! I am a relatively new member to this group, but this is my first posting. I have about a million questions and theories going on, but I just had a new thought...Harry's scar is clearly some sort of alarm or link to Voldemort. I am wondering why there was no mention of Harry's scar hurting when he was with Tom Riddle in the Chamber of Secrets. Tom is afterall, Voldemort. Since Tom was only a memory, not really there, and could therefore not actually harm Harry, I am thinking that is why. Maybe Harry's scar only hurts when the present-day Voldemort, the realistic threat, is active? Anyone else have any theories about this? Yours in magic, Brookeshanks From vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be Fri Jun 6 14:59:01 2003 From: vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be (Vicky Gwosdz) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:59:01 -0000 Subject: Hermione And Bulgaria (some OOP) In-Reply-To: <20030606115624.44333.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59452 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Julia Yatsenko wrote: > Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: > Romania/Bulgaria can be that 'new' place where Harry is supposed to go in the Book 5. > What do you think? Juli: > (well i think it's not the most probable scenario, but anyway quite possible...) > > thanx for your attention > Juli (lurker!) Good idea! It's supposed to be "a magical world", but isn't Transyvania in that area? The homeland of the vampires? This could indeed lead to some interesting reading. What if Snape is indeed vampire-related. Mmm, so many what-ifs. "Vicky" From patricia at obscure.org Fri Jun 6 17:56:52 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:56:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fleur Delacour And Bill Weasely In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59453 On Fri, 6 Jun 2003, Louis Badalament wrote: > Before we begin, let me refresh all your memories with this little > quote from Goblet of Fire; > > "Fleur Delacour, Harry noticed, was eyeing Bill with great interest > over her mother's shoulder. Harry could tell she had no objection > whatsoever to long hair or earrings with fangs on them." > > So... what to make of this 'great interest' of Fleur's. Love At > First Sight? Cursory Intrigue? Flavor Of The Week? Do you think > we can look forward to Fleur 'turning on the old charm' for the > eldest Weasely brother? I think Fleur thinks Bill is hot, really hot, but in that scene I think it's primarily a physical attraction, along with a little intrigue. She has only just met him and hasn't had an opportunity to interact with him, so there is no basis (yet) for a deeper love. However, I fully expect to see Fleur again in some capacity since she said she was trying to a job "here" (Hogwarts? Hogsmeade? Scotland? Anywhere in the UK?), and if she runs into Bill again I expect she'll try to use the Veela charm to catch his interest. Whether it will work is another question. Harry and Cedric didn't seem to be affected by her, although Ron and Roger Davies were. It also remains to be seen whether Bill would have any interest in her without the Veela effect. She must be a smart girl to have been chosen as the Beauxbatons champion and she's certainly beautiful, but there is a significant age difference between them and we have no idea if their personalities are at all compatible. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From patricia at obscure.org Fri Jun 6 18:11:39 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:11:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tomboy Lily/Dursleys In-Reply-To: <20030606174744.66905.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59454 On Fri, 6 Jun 2003, Becky Walkden wrote: > As to Petunia > knowing about Harry, there could well have been either family or even > family friends who could have told her. Also, I doubt there was > absolutely no contact between the two. Maybe not very friendly contact > but there could have been some without going so far as to making her the > Godmother! Huggs Becky I agree. I can't see either Lily or Petunia being interested in making Petunia Harry's godmother, given everything we have heard about their relationship in the books. Most likely, Petunia heard about Harry's birth through a relative who was on better terms with Lily (but then where had that relative gone by the time Harry was orphaned?) or a family friend. Or, Lily and James may have sent Petunia and Vernon a birth announcement in the mail (or by owl -- wouldn't that tick off the Dursleys?). There doesn't need to have been any personal contact between the two sisters for Petunia to know that Harry exists and what his name is. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 18:25:32 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 18:25:32 -0000 Subject: OOP: The mirror of Erised In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59455 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vicky_gwosdz" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vicky_gwosdz" > wrote: > > But in PS, when Ron looks in the mirror, he sees himself amongst > > other things as captain of the Quidditch team. Now, I remember > > reading on some site (forgot which one) that in > > book 5 (or maybe a later book), Ron would be watcher for the > > Quidditch team. > > If he ends up captain of the team, then this might mean that the > > mirror does do more then just reflect wishes. Well, maybe. But also, the mirror shows us what we desire. And since they are things we desire, they may also be things we can pursue. That's why Harry succumbs to mirror while Ron does not. What Ron desires (head boy, captain of the Qudditch team, etc) it is possible for him to go out and achieve (through hard work and dedication. On the other hand, what Harry sees--being with his parents--is impossible for Harry. No matter what he does, he can never bring them back. So, the mirror may predict the future in a sense but it would really be only a self fufilling prophecy. Serena From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Fri Jun 6 18:29:17 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 20:29:17 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tomboy Lily/Dursleys References: Message-ID: <007701c32c59$8b1de6d0$93026750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 59456 Patricia wrote: > I agree. I can't see either Lily or Petunia being interested in making > Petunia Harry's godmother, given everything we have heard about their > relationship in the books. Most likely, Petunia heard about Harry's birth > through a relative who was on better terms with Lily (but then where had > that relative gone by the time Harry was orphaned?) or a family friend. > Or, Lily and James may have sent Petunia and Vernon a birth announcement > in the mail (or by owl -- wouldn't that tick off the Dursleys?). There > doesn't need to have been any personal contact between the two sisters for > Petunia to know that Harry exists and what his name is. Me (Izaskun): Well, I don't know, I think Lilly and James were polite people, maybe the just sent a card announcing that their baby-boy Harry was born. I have some French cousins I haven't seen or talked to for years, but they keep us informed everytime they have a new child. It's just the sort of thing to be done. Even if your not in good terms with your relatives. CHeers, Izaskun From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 18:37:20 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 18:37:20 -0000 Subject: What happend to Lily's Parents? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59457 I know this question comes up a lot (and may be answered in OotP) but for now I just want to put forth this theory. It's commonly held that the Evans must be dead because if they weren't why hasn't Harry at the very least met and the most stay with them instead of the Dursely's. On this point, I concur. The question is how did they die--my answer--victims in the war with Voldemort. 1. They died before Harry defeated Voldemort because otherwise a) Harry would have been left with them (hopefully) b) neither Harry or Dudley seem to know them. 2. They died after Harry and Dudley were born. It seems to me the only way Petunia would know about Harry being born is if she heard it from her mother (and or father). 3. Now, I know its possible for two people to die within a year of each other, but that same year seems to be when Voldemorts rise was at it's peak. And he was all about killing muggles. And he wanted to hurt the Potters/send them a message. What if he killed Lily's parents as a warning? Serena From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Fri Jun 6 18:39:53 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 18:39:53 -0000 Subject: Harry's Scar... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59458 Brookeshanks wrote: > hey fellow HP fans! I am a relatively new member to this group, but > this is my first posting. I have about a million questions and > theories going on, but I just had a new thought...Harry's scar is > clearly some sort of alarm or link to Voldemort. I am wondering why > there was no mention of Harry's scar hurting when he was with Tom > Riddle in the Chamber of Secrets. Tom is afterall, Voldemort. Since > Tom was only a memory, not really there, and could therefore not > actually harm Harry, I am thinking that is why. Maybe Harry's scar > only hurts when the present-day Voldemort, the realistic threat, is > active? Anyone else have any theories about this? > > Yours in magic, > Brookeshanks The link was produced when Voldemort tried to AK Harry, and was hit by the rebound curse. Whatever magics are operating around the scar that link Harry and Voldemort together, they only work between the post-AK Voldemort and Harry. Diary!Tom is the copy of the pre-AK Voldemort, when he was still 16, and since at the time he was still basically human and hadn't been almost blasted into smitherins, there it does not set off Harry's scar. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From yellows at aol.com Fri Jun 6 18:44:36 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:44:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fleur Delacour And Bill Weasely Message-ID: <19c.15af463c.2c123b14@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59459 In a message dated 6/6/2003 2:26:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, Patricia writes: > However, I fully expect to see Fleur again in some capacity since she said > she was trying to a job "here" (Hogwarts? Hogsmeade? Scotland? Anywhere in > the UK?), and if she runs into Bill again I expect she'll try to use the > Veela charm to catch his interest. Whether it will work is another > question. Harry and Cedric didn't seem to be affected by her, although > Ron and Roger Davies were. It also remains to be seen whether Bill would > have any interest in her without the Veela effect. She must be a smart > girl to have been chosen as the Beauxbatons champion and she's certainly > beautiful, but there is a significant age difference between them and we > have no idea if their personalities are at all compatible. Wouldn't it be interesting if this could play more into Ron's insecurities? We know that Ron couldn't resist the Veela charm, and though I don't get the impression he's seriously interested in a relationship with her, it'd be yet *another* situation in which Ron lost out to one of his siblings or friends. At the end of GoF, Ron's still not able to control himself in front of Fleur, and he chokes a response to her about her English improving. She smiles and says nothing directly to him, but I'll bet he would feel a little slighted if his brother now wins the heart of the Veela. Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yellows at aol.com Fri Jun 6 18:47:53 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:47:53 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: The mirror of Erised Message-ID: <126.2b084a61.2c123bd9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59460 In a message dated 6/6/2003 2:28:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, Serena writes: > Well, maybe. But also, the mirror shows us what we desire. And > since they are things we desire, they may also be things we can > pursue. That's why Harry succumbs to mirror while Ron does not. > What Ron desires (head boy, captain of the Qudditch team, etc) it is > possible for him to go out and achieve (through hard work and > dedication. On the other hand, what Harry sees--being with his > parents--is impossible for Harry. No matter what he does, he can > never bring them back. > > So, the mirror may predict the future in a sense but it would really > be only a self fufilling prophecy. I think this must be it. Dumbledore says that people have wasted away in front of the mirror. Perhaps those were the people who saw the impossible things in front of them. They knew they couldn't go out to achieve those dreams, so they sat in front of the mirror, wishing, until their lives were through. Harry was in danger of that. But Ron's vision is actually something he could achieve if he tried hard enough. It would be nice to see that scene come to life in the series for Ron. :) Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Fri Jun 6 19:09:55 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 19:09:55 -0000 Subject: Champion choosing (WAS: Fleur Delacour And Bill Weasely) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59461 Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: > [Fleur] must be a smart > girl to have been chosen as the Beauxbatons champion > > ---- > Patricia Bullington-McGuire Ummm... that comment made me think, did the Goblet choose the champions because they're smart? That doesn't seem to be the case, from my PoV. So I thought it might be fun to investigate further. Unfortunately, there is no canon to indicate what method the Goblet used to select the champions. In fact, I have wondered a lot about it. Is it raw magical power? Potential abilities? Courage? Knowledge? The one that wants it most? Alphabetically - the one with the name starting with the lowest/highest letters? Random? The canon states: "The Goblet will return the names of the three it has judged most worthy to represent their schools" (Dumbledore, ch. 16, GoF, Br. Ed). This, however, doesn't really mean anything, since to be the most worthy, it has to be in some cathegory or group of cathegories. But it's an interesting question, and there is still a couple of weeks to go before OoP, so I'm going to ramble and present a new theory. First lets start with the Goblet, to see where it takes us. We know that the Goblet has probably been around some time. It is certainly reusable - "it won't re-ignite until the start of the next Tournament" (Bagman, ch. 17, GoF, Br. Ed), which implies it is not a one-use magical object. Of course, the Tournament has not been played in some time now, so it might be a new Goblet, but we also have its description. The chest in which the Goblet is kept is described as "a great wooden chest, encrusted with jewels. It looked extremelly old" (ch. 16, GoF, Br. Ed). The Goblet's age is not remarked upon, but it is mentioned that it looks "roughly hewn" (ch. 16, GoF, Br. Ed). It could've been roughly hewn the week before the TWT started, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's as old as the TWT, and indeed is an antiquity. Now, the Goblet is described a few times as "an impartial selector" (Dumbledore, ch. 16, GoF, Br. Ed). We also know that age isn't a consideration, since the age line is designed to prevent underage wizards from participating, which sort of implies that on previous Tournaments wizards of all ages tried to get in and some managed to (and promptly got themselves killed, I imagine). So, where does this take us? My conclusion in that the Goblet uses some internal measurement to judge the people who put their names into the Goblet (doing that is easy, since it has their names, which are traditionally easy keys of access to a person by the use of magic). So having the ability to access the person, the Goblet must now select the best in each school (of all those that have chosen to participate). And now, my theory. I think the Goblet's scale is independent for each school. By that theory, the Goblet has been told - or reads from the heads of those that have entered over the years - what the characteristics that each school finds most worthy in his students. Or maybe it simply reads to see what the participants of each school really believe to be the most worthy between them. I like this last one in particular. It is democratic, in a way, and it fits. The three champions that were selected (Harry was selected by default, since he was the only representant from his school - I wonder what name Crouch!Moody used) have one thing in common: they are admired in their school. Krum because of his Quidditch achivements, Fleur and Cedric in part due to their good looks and, from what could be appreciated during the tournament, also because of a well developed magical ability and power (although Fleur didn't do a good job at facing the Grindilows in the second task). In conclussion, I think the Goblet doesn't choose - just lets the participants choose who they think, in the silence of their hearts, really should be the champion (apart from themselves, I should imagine). Comments? Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 19:21:02 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 19:21:02 -0000 Subject: Did Sirius have a knife? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59462 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Grey Wolf" wrote: > > Sirius did *not* have a wand at the SS. And yes, a knife is low-tech > but Sirius is a fugitive of justice. While he can buy a broom by postal > order and send it to Hogwarts, he cannot enter a wand shop and buy a > wand, any more than a known fugitive could enter an arms shop and buy a > gun. But he probably had to buy the knife somewhere. Of course, it is easy to purchase a regular knife anonymously, but I noted something else just yesterday in GoF. Sirius sent Harry a magical penknife as a Christmas present; it's in the Yule Ball chapter, right after Dobby shows up in the dormitory to give Harry the socks. Still, he could probably order a magical knife by postal order as well, though he'd presumably need to try out a wand in person. Ersatz Harry, wondering if the gift of a knife is a bad luck omen From Ali at zymurgy.org Fri Jun 6 19:23:35 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 19:23:35 -0000 Subject: Tomboy Lily/Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59463 Becky Walkden wrote: <<< As to Petunia knowing about Harry, there could well have been either family or even family friends who could have told her. Also, I doubt there was absolutely no contact between the two. Maybe not very friendly contact but there could have been some without going so far as to making her the Godmother! >>> I agree. In fact, whilst this cannot be conclusive, Vernon did not know that Harry had a godfather: "Godfather?" spluttered Uncle Vernon. "You haven't got a godfather" (PoA p.317 UK edition). Of course, I'm assuming that Harry would have had an ordinary Christening where all godparents attend and take their vows together. But, if all the godparents did attend the Christening, then Godmother Petunia would have known that Harry did once have a godfather, even if she did not know what had happened to him. This is an assumption, as Harry may not have had a Christening. But, if it wasn't a Christening, then in any event, I can't see Petunia agreeing to participate in a "strange" (to her) ceremony. I suppose Vernon could simply have been shocked that Harry had found out about his godfather as it was another detail that the Dursleys had kept from him. Or perhaps, Petunia did not tell Vernon that she was Harry's godmother. However, I think that is highly unlikely. Ali From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 19:28:12 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 19:28:12 -0000 Subject: Fleur Delacour And Bill Weasely In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59464 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: > > ..edited previous post... > > I think Fleur thinks Bill is hot, really hot, but in that scene I > think it's primarily a physical attraction, along with a little > intrigue. ...edited... > > ---- > Patricia Bullington-McGuire bboy_mn: I think Fleur looks at Bill and sees a handsome, and yes, cool confident self-assured MAN. Which is probably refreshing after being trapped in a castle with hundreds of simpering, goo-goo eyed, befuddle boys. A sophisticated girl like Fleur is not interested in befuddled little boys. So naturaly, she would be attracked to someone as cool and confident as Bill. What girl would't? Come on ladies, we all know you like the bad boys (humor). Just a thought. bboy_mn From rachelwp at attbi.com Fri Jun 6 19:29:15 2003 From: rachelwp at attbi.com (Rachel Williams Peckham) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 15:29:15 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fleur Delacour And Bill Weasely In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002701c32c61$ebcb6090$254210ac@Rachel> No: HPFGUIDX 59465 bboy_mn: I think Fleur looks at Bill and sees a handsome, and yes, cool confident self-assured MAN. Which is probably refreshing after being trapped in a castle with hundreds of simpering, goo-goo eyed, befuddle boys. A sophisticated girl like Fleur is not interested in befuddled little boys. So naturaly, she would be attracked to someone as cool and confident as Bill. What girl would't? Come on ladies, we all know you like the bad boys (humor). Just a thought. bboy_mn now me: I'm not sure I agree with pairing Bill and Fleur. True, she was attracted to him when she saw him, but she was also flirting with Cedric and out in the bushes with Roger Davies. She may just be boy-crazy, and not give Bill another thought. Guess we'll see soon enough! rachelwp From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 19:40:36 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 19:40:36 -0000 Subject: OOP: The mirror of Erised In-Reply-To: <126.2b084a61.2c123bd9@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59466 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/6/2003 2:28:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, Serena writes: > > > ..., the mirror shows us what we desire. ...Harry succumbs to > > mirror while Ron does not. .... What Ron desires it is possible > > for him to go out and achieve... On the other hand, what Harry > > sees--being with his parents--is impossible for Harry. No matter > > what he does, he can never bring them back. > > > > So, the mirror may predict the future in a sense but it would > > really be only a self fufilling prophecy. > Brief Chronicles: > > ...edited... > > But Ron's vision is actually something he could achieve if he tried > hard enough. It would be nice to see that scene come to life in the > series for Ron. :) > > Brief Chronicles bboy_mn: Dim the lights. Cue the spooky organ music. Self-fulfilling prophecy... Harry being with is parents.... Who says Harry's desire can't come true? Ron can certainly achieve his desires in his life. But Harry can also achieve his desire. True his parent can't come back and join him, but he can go join them. (Sudden loud rushing chord of organ music that slowly fades) What if, in the end, we see the Potter ghost family reunited again in death. (Sudden loud rushing chord of organ music that slowly fades) Just a thought. bboy_mn From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Fri Jun 6 19:50:17 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 19:50:17 -0000 Subject: Did Sirius have a knife? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59467 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ersatz Harry" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Grey Wolf" wrote: > > > > Sirius did *not* have a wand at the SS. And yes, a knife is > > low-tech but Sirius is a fugitive of justice. While he can buy a > > broom by postal order and send it to Hogwarts, he cannot enter a > > wand shop and buy a wand, any more than a known fugitive could > > enter an arms shop and buy a gun. > > But he probably had to buy the knife somewhere. Of course, it is > easy to purchase a regular knife anonymously, but I noted something > else just yesterday in GoF. Sirius sent Harry a magical penknife as a > Christmas present; it's in the Yule Ball chapter, right after Dobby > shows up in the dormitory to give Harry the socks. Still, he could > probably order a magical knife by postal order as well, though he'd > presumably need to try out a wand in person. > > Ersatz Harry, wondering if the gift of a knife is a bad luck omen Good point about being able to order a knive by postal order... I had assumed he had stole it as soon as he had a chance - any weapon is better than no weapon, and he did want to kill Peter, so every little would help. Besides, it is very easy to find knives: all kitchens have a few big knives around, and no-one is going to make much fuss if one of the knives disappears, and nothing else is missing (apart from a little food from the pantry). The only difficulty with buying the knive by post is that Sirius doesn't have a place where he can pick it up. Even if he does have a house, I should imagine the MoM was waiting for him there. I supose he could've entered a shop and bough one, but considering the amount of publicity his escape generated, that would be as risky as going to Olivanders. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 20:33:15 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 20:33:15 -0000 Subject: Did Sirius have a knife? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59468 Discussing Sirius' acquisition of knives, "Grey Wolf" wrote: The only difficulty with buying the knive by post is that Sirius doesn't have a place where he can pick it up. Even if he does have a house, I should imagine the MoM was waiting for him there. Constance (me): Wolf, I'm surprised at you! While I don't really support the idea that Sirius bought a knife from the Sears catalog, there would be no difficulty shipping it to him. Owls have found him in a cave, touring the tropics, and in concealment in who knows what other locations. so I think he would be able to receive a purchase quite easily even without an address. ~ Constance Vigilance From dscire at swfla.rr.com Fri Jun 6 19:06:21 2003 From: dscire at swfla.rr.com (lunrbebe) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 19:06:21 -0000 Subject: Is History Repeating Itself Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59469 Please forgive me if this question has been asked before, this it my first time joining a disscussion group. Do you have the feeling that history is recreating it's self? For example I see Percy taking the place of Mr. Crouch and perhaps betraying his rule breaking brothers. I see the original group (Potter, Lupin,Black& Pettigrew) reemerging as (Potter, Granger, Weesley & Longbottom). O.K. maybe I'm crazy, but bear with me...One more... Granger & R. Weesley or Potter & G. Weesley emerging as the new James and Lily? "lunrbebe" From cantor at vgernet.net Fri Jun 6 20:58:03 2003 From: cantor at vgernet.net (cantoramy) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 20:58:03 -0000 Subject: Did Sirius have a knife? and 2 questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59470 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ersatz Harry" wrote: > Of course, it is easy > to purchase a regular knife anonymously, but I noted something else > just yesterday in GoF. Sirius sent Harry a magical penknife as a > Christmas present; it's in the Yule Ball chapter, right after Dobby > shows up in the dormitory to give Harry the socks. Thank you for mentioning the penknife. I almost forgot about it. Harry wishes he had it with him when he needs to untie Ron and the others during the second task (GoF, pp.432-433, uk pb). JKR most definitely has plans for this knife, or she wouldn't have brought it up. Of course, I could be totally all wet, which is most likely true:) Now for the first question. In PS/SS the centaur Bane admonishes the centaur Firenze: "Remember, Firenze, we are sworn not to set ourselves against the heavens. Have we not read what is to come in the movements of the planets?...Centaurs are concerned with what has been foretold!"..."Do you not see that unicorn?" Firenze bellowed at Bane. Do you not understand why it was killed? Or have the planets not let you in on that secret? I set myself against what is lurking in this Forest..." (PS, pp. 187-188, uk pb) We know that JKR has planted clues about Harry's story throughout the series. Are the planets predicting only Voldemort's return, or are they also predicting Harry's death? And another question. Does the curse that comes with drinking the unicorn blood still have an affect on Voldemort after he returns? With PP's hand and Harry's blood, he now has some "human" in him. cantoramy who has eye-strain from rereading everything at least three times to prepare for oop and knows she has missed at least 45 clues From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 6 21:08:08 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 21:08:08 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: OOP Spoiler Policy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59471 Greetings from Hexquarters! As we all count down the days until the release of OoP, the Administration Team has been huddled at Hexquarters, all of the entrances securely bolted and towels stuffed under the cracks beneath the doors. Nothing, we vowed, must disturb our careful deliberations and detailed preparations for This Blessed Event. Finally, the Admin Team have something to show for their hard work. We have decided how we will handle the issue of spoilers for the OoP release. Our view is that anyone who comes to a HP discussion group around the release of OoP really should expect to encounter spoilers. Lots and lots of spoilers. For that reason, we have decided *not* to require list members to use spoiler space at all. Instead, we are introducing a new prefix for subject headers, which will give members fair warning that the post contains OoP spoilers. Beginning today, we would like members to use the "OOP" prefix for any post to any of our lists that contains spoilers for OoP. Subject headers should not, of course, contain spoilers themselves -- "OOP: Sirius Dies At Azkaban!" rather defeats the point of the OoP prefix. For example, an appropriate subject header might be, "OOP: Harry, Sirius." Harry and Sirius are so interconnected in previous books that this isn't a spoiler. "OOP: Harry, Lupin" on the other hand, *would* be a spoiler, as we don't know whether Lupin is in Book 5. "OOP: Lupin" would be better (as for all we know, you might be posting on why Lupin isn't in the book). Remember that a subject header which has *both* a chapter number and a subject is in itself a spoiler. 'OOP: Chapter 32 - Sirius' tells readers that Sirius turns up in Chapter 32. For a reader only on Chapter 7, where Harry is worried about his godfather, that's a spoiler. If you want to discuss a particular chapter, use chapter numbers *only*. 'OOP: Chapter 32' is fine. Please begin using the new "OOP" prefix on all of our lists -- especially the main list and OT-Chatter -- beginning today. And remember, if you have any comments about any OoP release issues, holler at us at: hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com "The truth." Dumbledore sighed. "It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution." [PS/SS Chapter 17] Be like Dumbledore. Tell people as little as possible. ;-) Counting down to June 21st The Administration Team From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Fri Jun 6 21:10:01 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 21:10:01 -0000 Subject: Did Sirius have a knife? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59472 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Miller" < constancevigilance at y...> wrote: > Discussing Sirius' acquisition of knives, "Grey Wolf" wrote: > > The only difficulty with buying the knive by post is that Sirius > doesn't have a place where he can pick it up. Even if he does have a > house, I should imagine the MoM was waiting for him there. > > Constance (me): > > Wolf, I'm surprised at you! While I don't really support the idea > that Sirius bought a knife from the Sears catalog, there would be no > difficulty shipping it to him. Owls have found him in a cave, touring > the tropics, and in concealment in who knows what other locations. so > I think he would be able to receive a purchase quite easily even > without an address. > > ~ Constance Vigilance I discounted Sirius buying the knife from the WW for two main reasons, Constance. 1) It seemed to be a normal, absolutely non magical knive. It did not vibrate or otherwise serve any other purpose than being a normal knive. Granted it may have a "never-dull" enchantment, but it certainly didn't sound like it. 2) Most importantly, while muggles seem to be tricked by false names but real directions, wizard post does require you to give your real name so the owl can find you and in that case we're back to the problem of "who would sell something to the infamous turncoat and assassin Sirius Black"? Granted, now that you mention it, I realise that if Sirius is, as it seems, a WW-raised wizard (i.e. he has never lived in the muggle world), it is doubtful he'd have a non-Gringotts bank account from which to pay for the knive, and if he has to stop to steal muggle money, he might as well just go ahead and steal the damned knive in the first place. Before you all jump to the question, let me say that it is not at all cut and dried that Sirius is WW-raised. Harry implies in his letter in GoF that Sirius should know what a computer is, when he describes Dudley's console as a "kind of computer you play games on". Of course, Harry *has* written three other letters that summer, IIRC, and might have explined computers before (and considering how much time Sirius has been in Azkaban, and before that in the WW, he might have needed it even if he was raised in the muggle world). Sirius also has an (enchanted) bike, which could indicate passion for muggles (but then, the MoM has ministry cars, and we know that the average wizard doesn't really think much of the muggles). Anyway, back to the post, you are right to be surprised, Constance. I should've paid more attention to the details. Sorry, will try to be more careful. One thing is true: I am more and more convinced that Sirius simply broke and entered a muggle house and took their cleaver. We know he's not shy when it comes to entering people's homes, and at the time he was desperate, haunted, being prosecuted and mad enough to commit the crime he was imprisoned for.Sirius certainly didn't act like an innocent man. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 6 21:11:03 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 21:11:03 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Err, sorry, what's a 'spoiler'? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59473 It is coming to the attention of the Admin team that there is some confusion over what is a pre-OOP 'spoiler'. Mainly, it's come to our attention because our little administrative brains are themselves becoming confused. It's easy enough to work out what a spoiler is going to be after June 21. Absolutely *anything* in the book. But what is a spoiler *before* publication? A pre-publication spoiler is: anything you KNOW will be in Book 5. Not as in 'I saw it in a dream'; more 'I saw it in the Scholastic catalog/ on the cover art / on the press release.' Anything that you THINK will be in OOP is fair game. We've been speculating about what we THINK will be in OOP for the last couple of years, after all... So, if you KNOW that parts of your post include information that will be in OoP, you need the OOP: prefix. And if you don't use it, don't be surprised if you suddenly find yourself being hung upside down over the Slytherin Common Room fire. ;-) Counting down to June 21st The Administration Team From crunchy2733 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 19:23:23 2003 From: crunchy2733 at yahoo.com (Trina Millett) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 12:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Death of Book 5 Message-ID: <20030606192323.3771.qmail@web12705.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59474 I'm convinced that the death in Book 5 will be Ginny. She meets all the "criteria" - she's a big fan of Harry's, has been around since Book 1 (if only briefly), and would be a terrible death for many fans. Here are my specific reasons: * We've been told by JKR that Ginny will play a more important role in Book 5. Maybe the death doesn't come until the end, but it would be important no matter when it occurs. * Ginny's death could be a powerful experience for Percy, and it might cause him to rethink his priorities concerning family vs. his career at the MOM. * We know we can't make it through all 7 books without at least one Weasley death. * Ginny's death would be a direct hit to Ron (and his family, of course) from Voldemort, something Harry has already experienced. Losing his sister would increase Ron's personal stake in the upcoming war, help him to mature a bit, and give him a deeper common bond with Harry (death of a loved one to LV). * Most important, Ginny owes Harry one of those famous "life debts". Harry almost died himself saving Ginny in COS. Perhaps Ginny has felt a lot of guilt about her hand in the wrongdoings at the school and especially about endangering Harry, even though no one blames her. Wouldn't it be dramatically sweet (and honorable in wizard terms) if Ginny died saving Harry this time? This is my first post. I thoroughly enjoy all the thought-provoking, creative ideas presented on this list! Trina __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From patricia at obscure.org Fri Jun 6 21:41:05 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 17:41:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tomboy Lily/Dursleys In-Reply-To: <007701c32c59$8b1de6d0$93026750@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59475 On Fri, 6 Jun 2003, fridwulfa wrote: > > Patricia wrote: > > > Or, Lily and James may have sent Petunia and Vernon a birth announcement > > in the mail (or by owl -- wouldn't that tick off the Dursleys?). There > > doesn't need to have been any personal contact between the two sisters for > > Petunia to know that Harry exists and what his name is. > > Me (Izaskun): > Well, I don't know, I think Lilly and James were polite people, maybe the > just sent a card announcing that their baby-boy Harry was born. Exactly. That would be the "birth announcement" I mentioned. By "personal contact" I meant face-to-face interaction or verbal contact as with a telephone. I do think you would need to be willing to at least talk to someone to become their child's godparent, but talking is not necessary just to find out that they *have* a child. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 22:07:17 2003 From: ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com (ameliagoldfeesh) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 22:07:17 -0000 Subject: HP Currency Converter @ CNN (was) Money, Trips, Cars,... In-Reply-To: <4d.3073982d.2c121aca@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59476 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > > I seriously doubt that they found even a mass-market paperback of >any Harry Potter book for $3.99. More likely they found a British >paperback that said "?3.99 [14 Sickles, 3 Knuts)" and figured any >adult lame enough to be interested in Harry Potter wouldn't care >about the difference. A. Goldfeesh: Well I own a pair of 3.99 HP paperbacks. They are "Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them" and "Quidditch Through the Ages." Additionally, on the back by the US price it says "14 Sickles 3 Knuts" so CNN did not make this up. A Goldfeesh (who thinks baby rats are the most adorable things (especially their little-bitty tails) since her rat had a litter) From jmeec316 at aol.com Fri Jun 6 22:39:21 2003 From: jmeec316 at aol.com (Jaimee) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 22:39:21 -0000 Subject: Harry's Christmas Present, was Re: Did Sirius have a knife? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59477 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ersatz Harry" wrote: > All this talk of Ron's dress robes and the Severing Charm, combined > with some of the recent discussion about WW technology (particularly > plumbing) triggered a thought. While I don't have PoA with me right > now, I seem to recall that Ron said Sirius had a knife when he > (Sirius) showed up in the dormitory, and that the curtains were > slashed. I definitely recall that the Fat Lady's painting was > slashed, and I assume that Sirius didn't do that with dog claws since > he had to be in human form to speak the password. (He could have done > it with a spell, I suppose.) > > Doesn't a knife seem to be a bit of a low-tech weapon for the WW? Am > I recalling Sirius's visit to the dormitory correctly? Didn't Sirius > have a wand at the Shrieking Shack? > > Ersatz Harry Jaimee: Speaking of knives...Sirius also sends Harry a "pen knife" for Christmas in GoF "with attachments to unlock any lock and undo any knot (p.410 US harback)" Cool gift, really...but, considering Sirius' concerns for Harry's safety at that time, why a knife instead of something magical? Harry remembers the knife during the Second Task and wishes he brought it with him, but the knife never actually comes into play. Do think that the knife was just mentioned as a minor detail? Or do you think it will be needed in a future book? (perhaps at a time where magic can't be used--like Harry losing his wand again or something? ...or maybe even against Voldemort, since Harry's wand malfunctions when battling him?) Just thought the present was intriguing... All smiles :) Jaimee From jwilliamson at rocketmail.com Fri Jun 6 19:12:24 2003 From: jwilliamson at rocketmail.com (jwilliamson.rm) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 19:12:24 -0000 Subject: Tomboy Lily/Dursleys In-Reply-To: <20030606174051.58687.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59478 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, robert haberfield wrote: > > > Sabrina Mergner wrote: > Sabrina wrote > > I don't remember who, but somebody brought up that the only female friend of > Lily who could have gone against Dumbledore's decision to leave Harry at the > Dursleys would be his godmother. > Now my question: Where is this godmother? I know there has never been any > mention of her in the books < > What if Petunia is Harry's godmother and she just never told him? > > > Robert the old: > > If we are looking for a godmother for Harry my vote would be for Arrabella Fig. Her living so close by and being Known by the Dursley's is a bit "strange" > Here's a completely different thought on the godmother thing: what if the godmother is Arabella Figg? We already know she is coming back (likely [?] as the DAtDA professor) in OotP. And if she is the godmother, she would have been doing her duty all along, as she watched over Harry. What if she's the female friend of Lily's? She is, after all, part of the "old gang," according to Dumbledore... Thoughts on this possibility? As an aside, I also personally don't believe she's an elderly lady - I think it's a disguise. I think she's likely to be of the same generation as James, Lily, Sirius, Lupin and Severus - again, "the old gang." "jwilliamson" From mommiedragon at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 19:40:15 2003 From: mommiedragon at yahoo.com (Kathy Nava) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 12:40:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tomboy Lily/Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030606194015.41076.qmail@web21508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59479 Sabrina Mergner wrote: I don't remember who, but somebody brought up that the only female friend of Lily who could have gone against Dumbledore's decision to leave Harry at the Dursleys would be his godmother. Now my question: Where is this godmother? I know there has never been any mention of her in the books but where I live (Germany) every child usually has two or even three godparents. Usually one female and one male and from each side of its parents. As Sirius was obviously from James' side, it is only logical that there should be a godmother from Lily's side around. In my family the godparent usually is the sibling of the parent, sometimes the grandparent of the kid. And as far as we know Petunia is the only sister Lily had. What if Petunia is Harry's godmother and she just never told him? Okay, now you say that Petunia hates Lily and has always hated her and hadn't seen her for ages at the beginning of PS/SS, BUT: Couldn't it be that her parents or perhaps a grandmother or somebody similar (who is dead by now) could have badgered her into being the godmother? After the christening she would still have severed all ties with Lily and her family until Harry turned up at her doorstep. Which would then give a bit of a new spin as to why the Dursleys didn't give Harry to an orphanage. I think that Lily did have a close friend as Harry's godmother but that person was killed by Voldemort. If Lily's parents were alive at the time she was killed I think that DD would have placed Harry with them. Because Harry was placed with Petunia and Vernon I think that all of Lily's other relatives had been killed somehow. My kids (5) have godparents. 1 female and 1 male all but 1 set of godparents are married to each other. In my family that godparents range from my husbands sister and cousins to friends of ours. I think it depends on the culture and parents of the child as to who the godparents are. Petunia knew that Lily had a baby boy and knew the name was because her mother/father or another relative told her. Petunia also could have been sent a baby annoucement card even though she wasn't talking to Lily. I have sent out announcements to my relatives that I never talk or hate. Kathy From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 20:19:22 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 20:19:22 -0000 Subject: Tomboy Lily/Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59480 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > Becky Walkden wrote: > > <<< As to Petunia knowing about Harry, there could well have been > either family or even family friends who could have told her. Also, > I doubt there was absolutely no contact between the two. Maybe not > very friendly contact but there could have been some without going > so far as to making her the Godmother! >>> > > Ali: In fact, whilst this cannot be conclusive, Vernon did not > know that Harry had a godfather: > > "Godfather?" spluttered Uncle Vernon. "You haven't got a godfather" > (PoA p.317 UK edition). > >-- in any event, I can't see Petunia > agreeing to participate in a "strange" (to her) ceremony. Yes. And, I do think that Harry had a *wizard* naming ceremony. One that includes some sort of magical blessing. He may have a witch godmother, with whom Lily was a close friend to... Supposedly she died in Voldemort War, or is otherwise unable to contact Harry. Wizards being such isolated people and all... I do hope we have description of that ceremony and that of a wedding... Say, Sirius tells Harry about them - or Harry attends one i.e. Percy's wedding with Penelope Clearwater in OOP, and in book 7 their child's naming ceremony as an observer? -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 20:44:12 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 20:44:12 -0000 Subject: OOP: The mirror of Erised In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59481 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Serena Moonsilver" > > Well, maybe. But also, the mirror shows us what we desire. And > since they are things we desire, they may also be things we can > pursue. That's why Harry succumbs to mirror while Ron does not. > What Ron desires (head boy, captain of the Qudditch team, etc) it is > possible for him to go out and achieve (through hard work and > dedication. On the other hand, what Harry sees--being with his > parents--is impossible for Harry. No matter what he does, he can > never bring them back. > > So, the mirror may predict the future in a sense but it would really > be only a self fufilling prophecy. Desire - well, knowing what is your desire would, I presume, be most useful. Something to reach out for, motivate yourself to work for it. But, though being Head Boy, Quidditch Captain and holding the House Cup are shown in the mirror for Ron, he was also _alone_. What Ron wants, is gain his brothers achievements together. Harry - it's not his _parents_ he wants, but a loving and accepting family they represent, the idealized picture of them. In PoA, in summoning Patronus, Harry's following his Heart's Desire; Sirius is the closest thing Harry can manage in reality - the one with any success has the thought of his LETTER. Hagrid being friend, protector and link to his parents when giving it... Then there's Sirius offering him a home: "I get to live with Sirius" - and finally, when Harry thinks it was his _father_, he simply must go and check - and then he summons his Patronus. No conincidence for father/protector- meaning, that's what Harry _has_ in mind when he did the spell first time, and the Silver Stag will continue to represent/be his father. Heart's Desire helps - too bad Hermione never got to look into the Mirror - would it show Excellent Grades, Friends or Something Else? -- Finwitch From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 21:00:11 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 21:00:11 -0000 Subject: FILK: Transfiguration (revised) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59482 I have made a few tweaks to the original filk in order that persons other than contortionists are able to sing it. This version is much easier on the tongue. As you know, iit is a filk based on "New Math" by Tom Lehrer (may blessings be upon his name). Italics are indicated by enclosing the relevent words within asterisks. Asterisks themselves are not intended. Among other functions, these show McGonagall speaking to her class, in the same manner as Lehrer did to his audience at the *hungry i* in San Francisco. Neither Tom nor Minerva sang these respective passages. Transfiguration SCENE: Professor Minerva McGonagall is giving a lecture to her students: *Transfiguration is some of the most complex and dangerous magic you will learn at Hogwarts. Anyone messing around in my class will leave and not come back. You have been warned. It is important that you understand what you're doing rather than just get the right answer. Consider the following Transfiguration problem: turn a tortoise into a teapot* Now, teapots cannot walk, So they don't need feet, So you remove four tiny tortoise feet. Now likewise, there's no nose, So you give them a spout, Regroup, and you change their tops into lids, And you add handles right there at the back, And you take away tails, that's fine. Is that clear? Now instead of a mouth in its face You've a spout, 'Cause you need liquid, That is to say, tea, to come out, But you can't make tortoise-shell tea, So you make a ceramic shell. You can then boil the water To make the tea... (And you know why you just cannot pour boiling water Directly into a tortoise shell? Because you will end up with tortoise soup, right!)... And so you've got tortoise shells, And you take away the tops, and that leaves tea... *Well, soup actually. ... You see why organization is the important thing?* Now go back to the ceramic shell, And you're almost done, And you make a pretty design, And that leaves...? * Everybody get a teapot? No, Master Longbottom, it is not supposed to be a tortoise that breathes steam.* Transfiguration, Transformation, It really takes a lot of imagination. It's not simple, Not very simple; Master Longbottom cannot do it! *Now, actually, that is not the answer that I had in mind, because in the book that I got this spell out of, Emeric Switch's "A Beginner's Guide To Transfiguration", they want you to turn a guinea-fowl into a guinea-pig. But don't panic. The basic principles are the same. Shall we have a go at it? Hang on...* A guinea-pig can't fly, Flying is for birds, So you change the bird to a mammal. Now it doesn't have ears, So you give it pig's ears, Regroup and you conjure up a pigtail, And you add it to its rump, And you get a little tail, Which should not be curled, And you take away the corkscrew shape. *Okay?* Now, instead of two feet, called talons, You've got four. 'Cause you added two That is to say, hooves, to the two Talons, but you can't add any more feet, Or you might end up with insects. *Insects? "How did insects get into it?" I hear you cry. Well, insects and arachnids will be for next year, don't you know? So if you have any more silly questions, ask Miss Granger for the answers.* >From the feet you then go right To its face, And you turn its beak to a nose, And you get a guinea-pig's snout. Or, in other words, Guinea-fowl only have two feet. If you then add on two more feet, Then two feet plus two others are four. Now forget about the insects, And we're left with skin, And you change feathers into fur, And that leaves...? *Now, let's not always see the same hands. Right, Miss Granger? No, Master Longbottom, your teapot is not supposed to have feathers.* Transfiguration, Transformation, It really takes a lot of determination. It's not simple, Not very simple; Master Longbottom cannot do it! -Haggridd From yellows at aol.com Fri Jun 6 23:04:10 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 19:04:10 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Champion choosing (WAS: Fleur Delacour And Bill Wease... Message-ID: <197.1b5adc6c.2c1277ea@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59483 In a message dated 6/6/2003 3:14:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, Grey Wolf writes: > The three > champions that were selected (Harry was selected by default, since he > was the only representant from his school - I wonder what name > Crouch!Moody used) have one thing in common: they are admired in their > school. Krum because of his Quidditch achivements, Fleur and Cedric in > part due to their good looks and, from what could be appreciated during > the tournament, also because of a well developed magical ability and > power (although Fleur didn't do a good job at facing the Grindilows in > the second task). I'm skimming through the GoF pages and wondering to myself: 1) Is Grey Wolf's assumption correct? 2) Why *did* Fleur get chosen? Let's begin with the second, as it seems a bit easier to digest. :) In the first task, Fleur "was trembling from head to foot (GoF, Chapter 20, pg. 352 US edition)," when she went to fight the dragon, and it took her ten minutes to complete the task (shorter time than Cedric, who took 15 minutes). Later we learn that she did a succesful charm to put the dragon to sleep, but the whole plan got a little botched when it snored fire onto her skirt. Harry tied for first place in the task with Krum. Fleur presumably came in third, since she didn't take as long as Cedric. (GoF, Chapter 20, US edition) In the second task, Fleur came in last place because she failed to complete the task at all. She was awarded 25 points, but said, "I deserved zero (GoF, Chapter 26, pg. 506, US edition)." Cedric got 47 points, putting him in first place for that task, Krum got 40, and Harry got 45 points, coming in second place for the second task, and tying for first place with Cedric for the entire tournament. (GoF, Chapter 26, US edition) The third task, of course, is a different situation altogether. But on page 624, Chapter 31 of my US edition, Fleur was the first to be disabled in the maze. I find from these examples that Fleur did not measure up to the other champions. Krum came on top once and so did both Harry and Cedric. Fleur, on the other hand, never did as well as second place. So why was she chosen? Can we assume that the rest of the contestants from her school were worse than she? Or is there something to the Goblet that we don't yet understand? This brings me to my first question: Is Grey Wolf's assumption correct? Did the Goblet select them because they were admired in their schools? I believe Krum may have been admired in his school, at least by Karkaroff. But I wonder if some of the students resented him for the attention he got. When they first arrived at Hogwarts, we saw Karkaroff fussing over Krum. "... Should I send for some mulled wine from the kitchens?" Harry saw Krum shake his head as he pulled his furs back on. "Professor, *I* vood like some vine," said one of the other Durmstrang boys hopefully. "I wasn't offering it to *you,* Poliakoff," snapped Karkaroff, his warmly paternal air vainishing in an instant. "I notice you have dribbled food all down the front of your robes again, disgusting boy -- (GoF, Chapter 16, pg. 257, US edition)" I wonder if the other students really admired Krum when they were treated this way and they saw Krum treated very differently, or if they actually resented him. There is little evidence of what Fleur's schoolmates thought of her. In fact, I got an eerie impression that they had no personalities at all. (It makes me wonder, on a little tangent, how the finalists were chosen for each school. At Hogwarts, anyone of age could drop in his or her name. But the other two schools brought a small sample of their student body -- am I correct about this?. How were those students chosen? Could they have been chosen to ensure that one particular student would be the champion because the headmaster/headmistress wanted it to be that way?) And regarding Cedric, while we've heard of him before and we know he was attractive and cool, I never had the impression early on that he was the most-respected student at Hogwarts. I only noticed him getting such attention when he became the school champion. And also, if the Goblet is told of certain school qualities that must be upheld, what if Harry's name was put in under a school name whose qualities he did not represent at all? Would the Goblet still have chosen Harry as a default? I think there must be something more to the Goblet. I also think that if it is an "impartial" judge, as it is called a number of times, then weighing out popularity or specific schools' opinions of good qualities would not work. Those things seem to require the judge to be partial. Perhaps the Goblet selects champions based on something else. It clearly does not choose based on whether the champion can survive the tournament; we know that past champions have been killed. Perhaps the champions who are chosen are *not afraid to die in the tournament.* It may select the people it can tell are the least concerned about death. This is just my little guess, with very little canon to support it. Anyone care to support it for me? Or shoot it down? :) Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From brookeshanks at mugglenet.com Fri Jun 6 21:11:58 2003 From: brookeshanks at mugglenet.com (Brooke) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 21:11:58 -0000 Subject: Harry's Scar... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59484 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Grey Wolf" wrote: > Brookeshanks wrote: > > hey fellow HP fans! I am a relatively new member to this group, but > > this is my first posting. I have about a million questions and > > theories going on, but I just had a new thought...Harry's scar is > > clearly some sort of alarm or link to Voldemort. I am wondering why > > there was no mention of Harry's scar hurting when he was with Tom > > Riddle in the Chamber of Secrets. Tom is afterall, Voldemort. Since > > Tom was only a memory, not really there, and could therefore not > > actually harm Harry, I am thinking that is why. Maybe Harry's scar > > only hurts when the present-day Voldemort, the realistic threat, is > > active? Anyone else have any theories about this? > > > > Yours in magic, > > Brookeshanks > > The link was produced when Voldemort tried to AK Harry, and was hit by > the rebound curse. Whatever magics are operating around the scar that > link Harry and Voldemort together, they only work between the post- AK > Voldemort and Harry. Diary!Tom is the copy of the pre-AK Voldemort, > when he was still 16, and since at the time he was still basically > human and hadn't been almost blasted into smitherins, there it does not > set off Harry's scar. > > Hope that helps, > > Grey Wolf \ Yeah, I agree. it has to be that. I am trying to formulate my own theory about why Harry has such vivid dreams that not only foreshadow, but also often tell him something that is really going on at that time (like chapter 2, book 4). There has to be some sort of link/history to V and Harry. At first I thought the result of the dreams was because of the "brother wand" theory - Voldy's AK curse backfired because of the same phoenix feathers. But that can't be it because Harry was still an infant and did not have a want yet. Any thoughts? brookeshanks From fjswife at msn.com Fri Jun 6 21:15:04 2003 From: fjswife at msn.com (fjswife) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 21:15:04 -0000 Subject: OOP: The mirror of Erised In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59485 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Serena Moonsilver" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vicky_gwosdz" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vicky_gwosdz" > > wrote: > > > > But in PS, when Ron looks in the mirror, he sees himself amongst > > > other things as captain of the Quidditch team. Now, I remember > > > reading on some site (forgot which one) that in > > > book 5 (or maybe a later book), Ron would be watcher for the > > > Quidditch team. > > > If he ends up captain of the team, then this might mean that the > > > mirror does do more then just reflect wishes. > > > Well, maybe. But also, the mirror shows us what we desire. And > since they are things we desire, they may also be things we can > pursue. That's why Harry succumbs to mirror while Ron does not. > What Ron desires (head boy, captain of the Qudditch team, etc) it is > possible for him to go out and achieve (through hard work and > dedication. On the other hand, what Harry sees--being with his > parents--is impossible for Harry. No matter what he does, he can > never bring them back. > > So, the mirror may predict the future in a sense but it would really > be only a self fufilling prophecy. > > Serena Hello, new here, with a different theory. Maybe the mirror can show the future. Harry's parents may not really be dead, maybe they are in hiding. I believe only a few select wizards would know about this though. What if the curse used on them actually did not kill them, but erased their memories? Also What if Harry does have a sibling, say a brother, that was also affected by that curse (Neville)? I haven't worked out everything in my mind yet, so I find it hard to explain. I do plan on letting everyone know when I figure it out for my self. "fjswife" From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 21:15:13 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 21:15:13 -0000 Subject: The word "order", was: Re: Hopes for Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59486 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > bboy_mn: > > The Fraternal Organization of the Phoenix. > As in a lodge or club... Well, Finnish title would go for this using the word 'Veljeskunta'. It won't abide with other meanings of order - or possibly in the sense of Order of Merlin, but a stretched one. I doubt it's been checked for validity, but I consider it a good guess. However, the more the meanings of 'Order' will be included, the more I'll like it... What does that little phoenix order to eat in the restaurant Phoenix? -- Finwitch From brookeshanks at mugglenet.com Fri Jun 6 21:22:17 2003 From: brookeshanks at mugglenet.com (Brooke) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 21:22:17 -0000 Subject: Is History Repeating Itself In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59487 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lunrbebe" wrote: > Please forgive me if this question has been asked before, this it > my first time joining a disscussion group. Do you have the > feeling that history is recreating it's self? For example I see Percy > taking the place of Mr. Crouch and perhaps betraying his rule > breaking brothers. I see the original group (Potter, Lupin,Black& > Pettigrew) reemerging as (Potter, Granger, Weesley & > Longbottom). O.K. maybe I'm crazy, but bear with me...One > more... Granger & R. Weesley or Potter & G. Weesley emerging > as the new James and Lily? > > "lunrbebe" Hey :o) I absolutely agree with you. I think history is to repeat itself up until a certain point. JKR keeps stressing the importance of choosing what is right over what is easy. I think similar circumstances and relationships will emerge in Harry's generation reflecting that of his parents' generation. Then I think some characters (in the present) will make different choices than their historical counterparts did, and the lesson we learn will be in the consequences of those choices. Did that make sense? I see some of the same analogies that you do... ginny maybe as Lily, Ron as Sirius or Lupin, and possibly Colin Creevey as a future Wormtail. Colin idolizes Harry and wants to be a part of his group in the same way that Peter wanted to hang out with James & his friends. what you do you think? brookeshanks From brookeshanks at mugglenet.com Fri Jun 6 21:30:54 2003 From: brookeshanks at mugglenet.com (Brooke) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 21:30:54 -0000 Subject: Fleur Delacour And Bill Weasely In-Reply-To: <002701c32c61$ebcb6090$254210ac@Rachel> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59488 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rachel Williams Peckham" wrote: > > bboy_mn: > > I think Fleur looks at Bill and sees a handsome, and yes, cool > confident self-assured MAN. Which is probably refreshing after being > trapped in a castle with hundreds of simpering, goo-goo eyed, befuddle > boys. > > A sophisticated girl like Fleur is not interested in befuddled little > boys. So naturaly, she would be attracked to someone as cool and > confident as Bill. What girl would't? Come on ladies, we all know you > like the bad boys (humor). > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn > > > now me: > > I'm not sure I agree with pairing Bill and Fleur. True, she was > attracted to him when she saw him, but she was also flirting with Cedric > and out in the bushes with Roger Davies. She may just be boy- crazy, and > not give Bill another thought. Guess we'll see soon enough! > > rachelwp hey. I think Fleur might use her veela powers to try and lure Bill into liking her. but I think Bill will eventually see through her. Fleur seems pretty volatile to me...I could see her not having the best intentions in lots of situations. I see her becoming a threat if Bill does not reciprocate her attraction to him - both characters seem to fit the description of Samsen & Delilah... I think when it comes to Fleur, Bill (and Ron or any other wizard made weak by her) better watch his back! brookeshanks From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Sat Jun 7 00:08:53 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 17:08:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did Sirius have a knife? and 2 questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030607000853.17530.qmail@web21202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59489 --- cantoramy wrote: > JKR most > definitely has plans for this knife, or she > wouldn't have brought it > up. Of course, I could be totally all wet, > which is most likely > true:) Lynn: I don't think you're all wet at all. After all, this is not just a knife. It may not be the pen knife itself but the attachments which may end up being important. After all, they can unlock any lock and undo any knot. Hmmm, yep, sounds to me like it might come in handy sometime in the future. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Sat Jun 7 00:19:26 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 17:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did Sirius have a knife? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030607001926.23188.qmail@web21206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59490 --- Grey Wolf wrote: > One thing is true: I am more and > more convinced that > Sirius simply broke and entered a muggle house > and took their cleaver. Lynn: I agree Sirius stole the knife from somewhere but it need not have been a muggle house. After all, we know the Weasleys have knives when they fly out of the drawer to start cutting. They can't always be cutting something otherwise they couldn't just be put into a drawer. So, are they normal knives which cut at Molly's command or magic knives that may still need some type of command to begin their work. Inquiring minds and all of that. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Sat Jun 7 02:04:03 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 02:04:03 -0000 Subject: Champion choosing (WAS: Fleur Delacour And Bill Wease... In-Reply-To: <197.1b5adc6c.2c1277ea@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59491 Brief Chronicles: In the first task, Fleur "was trembling from head to foot (GoF, Chapter 20, pg. 352 US edition)," when she went to fight the dragon, and it took her ten minutes to complete the task (shorter time than Cedric, who took 15 minutes). Later we learn that she did a succesful charm to put the dragon to sleep, but the whole plan got a little botched when it snored fire onto her skirt. Harry tied for first place in the task with Krum. Fleur presumably came in third, since she didn't take as long as Cedric. (GoF, Chapter 20, US edition) In the second task, Fleur came in last place because she failed to complete the task at all. She was awarded 25 points, but said, "I deserved zero (GoF, Chapter 26, pg. 506, US edition)." Cedric got 47 points, putting him in first place for that task, Krum got 40, and Harry got 45 points, coming in second place for the second task, and tying for first place with Cedric for the entire tournament. (GoF, Chapter 26, US edition) Me(Bill): So after the first task we have: T1: Harry T1: Victor 3: Fleur 4: Cedric But after the seconds task we have: T1: Harry (45 points) - still tied for first T1: Cedric (47 points) - moved from last to tied for first 3: Victor (40 points) 4: Fleur (25 points) In other words, the difference between first place and last place, after the first task, was only 2 points. Huh? Bill From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Sat Jun 7 02:12:29 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 02:12:29 -0000 Subject: Much Ado About Money In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59492 bboy_mn said: Those Damn Robes- ...edited... Ron never asked for help. .... Merlin Wrote: Actually Ron only found out about the dress robes the night before they left for Hogwarts while packing his school supplies. ...edited... Merlin bboy_mn wrote again: Absolutely true, but he also had 4 months between Sept. 1 and Dec 25 to ask someone for help; McGonagall, Hermione, Dobby, any house elf, any teacher, any student... He didn't even search for a solution, he just hid the robes and ignored them. But Ooohhhh Nnnooooo not Ronikins. Like I said... You do not get what you do not ask for. bboy_mn Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; Accually, Ron did ask for help, in a way. He might not have begged his mum to fix his robe, but he did basicly ask for help. (Page 156 & 157, GoF, US) Mum, you've given me Ginny's new dress.... Of course I haven't, said Mrs Weasley. That's for you. Dress robes. What?, said Ron, looking horror struck. Dress robes! repeated Mrs Weasley.... You've got to be kidding, said Ron in disbelief. I'm not wearing that, no way. Everyone wears them, Ron! said Mrs Weasley crossly. They're all like that.... I'll go starkers before I put that on, said Ron stubbornly. Don't be silly, you've got to have dress robes,they're on your list.... I'm never wearing them, Ron said stubbornly. Never. Fine, snapped Mrs. Weasley. Go naked.... Instead of offering to help fix the robes, Ron's mum just tells him to "go naked." If Ron could take the fringe and lace off in a couple seconds while walking down the stairs to the ball, not knowing what he was doing, why didn't his mum try to fix them herself, instead of argueing about him having to wear them as is? Even if she did not have much time, she could have given her son 5 minutes to try and fix his robes properly. Unless she really did want him to wear a robe with fringes and lace, or really go naked after all. Fred Waldrop From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Sat Jun 7 02:47:30 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 02:47:30 -0000 Subject: HP Currency Converter @ CNN (was) Money, Trips, Cars,... In-Reply-To: <4d.3073982d.2c121aca@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59493 bboy_mn at y... writes: I believe this may have come of the cover of some book that had the price in both dollars and galleons, but was obviously in error. Given the numbers they are using, I suspect they took the Galleon to Pound rate and used it as the Galleon to Dollar rate. rayheuer3 at a... wrote: I seriously doubt that they found even a mass-market paperback of any Harry Potter book for $3.99. More likely they found a British paperback that said "?3.99 [14 Sickles, 3 Knuts)" and figured any adult lame enough to be interested in Harry Potter wouldn't care about the difference. Although I dispute your implication that the Galleon to Dollar rate can only be determined by converting Galleons to Pounds and then Pounds to Dollars, we do agree on two things: 1. One Galleon is roughly equal to ?5 or $7.50 2. The CNN converter program is so wildly inaccurate as to be useless. Hello all, Fred Waldrop here: If I am not mistaken, the $3.99 = 14 sickles, 3 knuts comes from the "Fantastic Beast & Where to find them book," or "Quidditch Through the Ages". Seeing that both cost $3.99 each, both probably say the same thing. I do know that in the forward of both books it says this: "Widespread amusement is converted into large quantities of money (over $250 million dollars since they started in 1985 - which is equvalent to 174 million pounds or 34 million Galleons). Hope that helps; Fred Waldrop From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sat Jun 7 03:49:58 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 23:49:58 EDT Subject: Speaking of Harry's knife... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59494 In a message dated 6/6/03 8:09:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ladilyndi at yahoo.com writes: > Lynn: > > I don't think you're all wet at all. After all, > this is not just a knife. It may not be the pen > knife itself but the attachments which may end up > being important. After all, they can unlock any > lock and undo any knot. Hmmm, yep, sounds to me > like it might come in handy sometime in the > future. Doesn't this sound like the type of thing Harry should be carrying all the time? HRH often gets into situations where they have to think fast, and the knife seems like something that I would want to with me if I were Harry. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jillily3g at yahoo.com Sat Jun 7 01:10:16 2003 From: jillily3g at yahoo.com (jillily3g) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 01:10:16 -0000 Subject: Did Sirius have a knife? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59495 "Grey Wolf" wrote: > > The only difficulty with buying the knive by post is that Sirius > > doesn't have a place where he can pick it up. Did he have to pick it up? It seemed as if he had the broom drop shipped to Harry. And he bought that with gold from his vault. Perhaps the goblins aren't too concerned with a person's status as long as their getting their fees. Beth From ph_10_85 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 7 02:01:02 2003 From: ph_10_85 at hotmail.com (pete_hay2002) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 02:01:02 -0000 Subject: Harry/Voldemort and ideas about what I want to see Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59496 Hey, I'll get the first comment out the way, first time poster, not been around all that long so might make some mistakes. Right onto the important part, my idea on the Harry/Voldemort relationship. Firstly I do not think they are related in any way, although Voldemort is evil and cold blooded I cannot see him trying to kill his descendants, they should after all be his closest supporters. Blood being thicker than water and all that, which I feel is true in the wizarding world, no cannon to support however in Gof Voldemort used Harry's blood to reverse the effects of the magic Lilly placed on Harry when she died for him. The only piece of information I could find that could be used to show a physical similarity between Harry and Voldemort is the "jet black hair" that they both have, however since we assume Voldemort would be from Lilly's side of the family I would expect some reference to his eye colour if JKR were to be leading up to telling us Harry and Voldemort are related. The only reference we have to Voldemort's eyes describe them as red, the opposite of Harry and Lilly's green eyes. My current theory on what is going to happen/ is happening is that Harry is the sole descendant of Godric Gryffindor, and Voldemort is the only descendant of Salazar Slytherin. My theory, which is no more than that (and will almost definitely change on the 21st of June) is that Voldemort knew this and attempted to eradicate his ancestor/mentor's family forever, thus ending the century old feud between the two founders. There will be more reasons to this (maybe some prophecy that the only people that can stop the descendants of Slytherin are Gryffindor's descendants? As Godric stopped Slazar). Lilly ruined Voldemort idea for sumpremacy (she could not stop him as she was a muggle born, therefore probably no magic family blood in her). This does not explain why James could not stop him but it is still my theory. Another idea floating around my head is that Arthur Weasley will be involved in a wizards duel with Lucuis Malfoy, they are bound to end up duelling at some point, I cannot see JKR not including that through the rest of the series. The fan of Harry could be anyone from Hagrid to Ron (cant see it happening) to someone he met in the Leaky Cauldron, it is imposible to predict for me, I cannot wait to read it to find out. Right I'm finished my ramblings for now, final apology incase these topics have been covered and thanks for reading, I look forward to any replies to my first ever post! No longer a lurker! Now a poster! Yours, Peter From natmichaels at hotmail.com Sat Jun 7 03:26:26 2003 From: natmichaels at hotmail.com (lorien_eve) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 03:26:26 -0000 Subject: Hermione And Bulgaria In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59497 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anna_mde" wrote: > Krum asked her after the second task, right? I assume she was > actually considering it then. But think about what happened then: > Krum attacked Fleur (Well, I assume he did.) and Cedric (that we > know for sure) during the third task, if I remember correctly, he > used 'Crucio' on Cedric. > > Now, taking that information into account, what kind of person does > he seem to be? Someone you would go to visit over the summer? > > The question is only: Does Hermione know? Did Harry tell her? Or > maybe Fleur? I am not too sure about that. What do you think? > > I am pretty sure that if she mentioned to Harry that she is actualy > going to visit Krum, he (Harry) would probably tell her what he > (Krum) did, wouldn't he? > > Anyways, I don't think that any responsible parent would let their 15 > year old go to stay with a young man that they do not know and who is > some years older that their daughter, in a foreign country no less. > Plus, do you think that now that he-who-must-not-be-named is back > she wants to go and her parents let her? I don't really think so. > > Anni Lurker here, coming briefly out of lurkdom. Yes, Krum *did* attack Cedric (and Fleur, we assume), but he was under the Imperius Curse, cast by Moody!Crouch, so I doubt this is an accurate portrayal of Krum's real personality. Lorien_Eve From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Sat Jun 7 03:47:57 2003 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 04:47:57 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: The mirror of Erised References: Message-ID: <3EE1606D.5090201@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59498 Steve wrote: > > bboy_mn: > > > Dim the lights. > > Cue the spooky organ music. > > Self-fulfilling prophecy... > > Harry being with is parents.... > > Who says Harry's desire can't come true? > > Ron can certainly achieve his desires in his life. > > But Harry can also achieve his desire. True his parent can't come back > and join him, but he can go join them. (Sudden loud rushing chord of > organ music that slowly fades) > > What if, in the end, we see the Potter ghost family reunited again in > death. (Sudden loud rushing chord of organ music that slowly fades) me, digger: [Newbie 1st post, Hi all] My prediction for OOP is similar. (it might have been aired here before, apols in advance if so) Harry does go to see his parents in the land of the dead, but he does it while he is still alive. A portal to the land of the dead is in that mysterious room we know he has not yet found. (I think that room is something like the mirror of erised, it shows you what you desire, like Dumbledore's chamber pots) The Order of the Phoenix is an honour awarded to those individuals who manage to travel to the land of the dead while alive, and sucessfully return to the land of the living. So Harry will be able to visit his parents, but because they are dead, he won't be able to bring them back through the door. I bet that Dumbledore, as a most powerful wizard, can do this. Conversly, Voldemort, by being in fear of death, and seeking immortality, has never attempted it. If Harry can do this, he will gain power and knowledge that V will never have, and this will aid him in the fight against Voldemort. digger From esk at europa.com Sat Jun 7 06:05:50 2003 From: esk at europa.com (Cindy L Wells) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 23:05:50 -0700 Subject: Dumbledore's Gleam Revisited References: <1054951957.4650.8343.m7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001001c32cba$d9c3e8a0$a87eadcf@jwells> No: HPFGUIDX 59499 A theory occurred to me about Dumbledore's gleam in GoF Chapter 36 that I hadn't heard before, but then I am new to this group, so there's a lot I've missed. When I read the final chapters of GoF I was surprised by the result of Harry and Voldemort's twin wands creating the strange reaction of Priori Incantatem. I don't recall any previous information in the books about wands with identical cores changing spells so drastically when used against each other. It occurred to me that this concept of two halves used against each other botching things might apply to other areas. In CoS Chapter 18 Dumbledore makes it clear that in Voldemort's attack on Harry, that he transferred some of his powers to Harry. And in GoF Chapter 33 Voldemort explains that he used Harry's blood to resurrect himself mainly so that he could have Harry's powers; particularly the protective magic given to him by his mother. So we have this situation: Harry has Voldemort's powers inside him, and Voldemort has Harry's powers inside him. Is it possible that what applies to wands also applies to wizards; that each of them having the powers of the other inside them might make later attacks against Harry by Voldemort go awry? Just one of those wild thoughts that occurs late at night . . . Cindy W From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Sat Jun 7 08:30:50 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 08:30:50 -0000 Subject: Did Sirius have a knife? In-Reply-To: <20030607001926.23188.qmail@web21206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59500 Ladi lyndi wrote: > > --- Grey Wolf wrote: > > One thing is true: I am more and > > more convinced that > > Sirius simply broke and entered a muggle house > > and took their cleaver. > > Lynn: > > I agree Sirius stole the knife from somewhere but > it need not have been a muggle house. After all, > we know the Weasleys have knives when they fly > out of the drawer to start cutting. They can't > always be cutting something otherwise they > couldn't just be put into a drawer. So, are they > normal knives which cut at Molly's command or > magic knives that may still need some type of > command to begin their work. > > Inquiring minds and all of that. > > Lynn There are 60 million muggles living in England. There are 20000 wizards. The chances of Sirius breaking and entering a house that happens to belong to a wizard family is 1 in 300, or 3? (that's 3 per thousand). Sirius is on the run; he doesn't have time to be choosy. To be that "lucky" he would've had to target someone he already knew, in which case he'd probably have got something metter than a knife, IMO (not a wand, though, since wizards tend to have only one per person and always carry them with them). Yes, there are magic knives, but Sirius can hardly have time to find one. Besides, a magic knive may just have a consciense built-in and not allow users to cut living people (oh, what I would give for a knive that wouldn't get out of hand and cut my fingers while I'm using it!). Beth wrote: > "Grey Wolf" wrote: > > > The only difficulty with buying the knive by post is that Sirius > > > doesn't have a place where he can pick it up. > > Did he have to pick it up? It seemed as if he had the broom drop > shipped to Harry. And he bought that with gold from his vault. > Perhaps the goblins aren't too concerned with a person's status as > long as their getting their fees. > > Beth No, the goblins don't care about the person as long as they keep their money. Besides, we know that the Goblins have staged more revolutions than (by what it sounds) all other creatures put together. But the goblins don't make knives. A broom maker receiving an order to send to Harry Potter, Hogwarts castle isn't going to make any fuss, particularly if he's been paid the thousands of Galleons the firebolt probably costs. A knive-maker receiving an order for a knive to be sent to Sirius Black is not going to be as pleased. And as I said, Sirius cannot simply have it sent to his old house, since it'll probably be under close watch by the MoM. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 7 08:39:48 2003 From: honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com (Sabrina) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 10:39:48 +0200 Subject: Tomboy Lily/Dursleys References: <1054929032.9046.99359.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59501 From: Becky Walkden Subject: Re: Re: Tomboy Lily/Dursleys Sabrina wrote: > And as far as we know Petunia is the only sister > Lily had. What if Petunia is Harry's godmother and she just never told him? > Okay, now you say that Petunia hates Lily and has always hated her and > hadn't seen her for ages at the beginning of PS/SS, BUT: Couldn't it be that > her parents or perhaps a grandmother or somebody similar (who is dead by > now) could have badgered her into being the godmother? After the christening > she would still have severed all ties with Lily and her family until Harry > turned up at her doorstep. > Which would then give a bit of a new spin as to why the Dursleys didn't give > Harry to an orphanage. (snip) Could Lily have been baggered into LETTING Petunia be his Godmother. This one I find very doubtful indeed. Although we have never seen James or Lily alive, I just have a very strong feeling that Lily was far too good and loving (well she DID sacrafice her life for Harry) a mother to have subjected him to having a Godmother like that! As to Petunia knowing about Harry, there could well have been either family or even family friends who could have told her. Also, I doubt there was absolutely no contact between the two. Maybe not very friendly contact but there could have been some without going so far as to making her the Godmother! Huggs Becky Yes, of course, but I think when you appoint somebody godparent you don't automatically assume that the kid will end up with those people at some point in their life. My godparents were at the time of my christening not very well liked by parts of the family and they still were made godparents, just because my parents and consequently grandparents were already quite old and it would have been risky to appoint them. I think godparent is usually a bit of an honorary title and nobody really expects that they will really have to take care of the kid. Sabrina From morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com Sat Jun 7 09:35:43 2003 From: morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com (Morgan D.) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 09:35:43 -0000 Subject: Ginny's dress, Ron's Attitude (was: Saving Every Sickle) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59502 I've been following the thread about the Weasleys and their relationship with money with great interest, and there are two questions I'd like to ask. Darrin said: > Did Ron forget that there were three other people that needed dress > clothes for that ball? Fred and George needed robes and Ginny > needed a dress. I've been wondering about that since I read GoF the first time. The bit about the kids needing formal garments must have been in the Hogwarts letters (good name for a site, but probably not for a band) listing the books and stuff they would need for the next school year, right? But... "Now, the ball will be open only to fourth-years and above -- although you may invite a younger student if you wish --" (McGonagall, GoF, ch 22, p 336, UK paperback) So Ginny's letter probably didn't mention the need for a formal dress. Or would the letters to first-, second- and third-years have said, "Uhn, you might want to bring a dress robe, there will be this ball you're not supposed to attend unless some older student invites you to it, but who knows, there is some small chance that might actually happen"? (The book doesn't say how many third-years and younger attended the ball. I assume there weren't many because of self-experience. When kids start to notice the opposite sex, they usually have crushes on people their age or older, not younger. We've been seeing a lot of that in the HP universe: Ginny falls for Harry, Harry falls for Cho, Cho goes to the ball with Cedric, Ron is gaga about Fleur (although her Veela ancestry might have something to do with it), Fleur notices Bill... Victor is the remarkable exception, falling for a girl who's four years younger.) Anyway, I don't remember any description of Ginny's dress in the Yule Ball chapter, and a quick page-flipping through it failed to spot any mentions to Ginny's presence besides her "wincing frequently as Neville trod on their feet" as they danced (GoF, ch 23, p 365, UK paperback). You guys seem certain that Molly bought her one too. You think she, probably knowing about the ball, decided to give Ginny a new dress "just in case"? This might be relevant if we're discussing whether the Weasleys spend their money wisely. In the same message, Darrin reminded us: > THEN, after Molly leaves, Pidgwigeon gets an owl treat stuck in his > beak and Ron vents about, "Everything I own is rubbish." > > HELLO! THAT WAS A GIFT, YOU UNGRATEFUL LITTLE GIT! Sirius GAVE Ron > a gift of an owl, saying, "It's my fault he no longer has a rat." I remember being taken aback when I first read that passage in GoF. Because I was already becoming very fond of Pigwidgeon and because Sirius is my favourite character, but moreover because Ron was calling "rubbish" a present from Sirius *in front of Sirius' godson!* I've been wondering if this is a cultural thing, maybe this is not such an appalling faux-pas in England, but I can't help thinking of it as a horrible, horrible gesture. Picture this hypothetical scene: Gryffindor dorm, Christmas morning, our heroes open their presents. Harry holds up the newest jumper knitted to him by Molly and mutters, "Everything I own is rubbish." Wouldn't Ron feel insulted? *I* can see the smoke coming out his ears, but maybe it's just me. When later in the book Harry and Ron stopped talking to each other, I kept thinking of Ron's attitude in that scene and expecting to see it mentioned again, to see Harry throw it at Ron's face in the typical "remember this? remember that?" that erupts when people who like each other and tend to overlook each other's faults finally lose their patience and explode in a fight. But it never came, not even as a passing comment from the narrator. So maybe my reaction was not what JKR had intended to get from her readers when she wrote that scene? Maybe it *is* a cultural thing, and having Ron complaining about a gift from Sirius in front of Harry was meant to be endearing? ("Poor Ron, such a bad luck, even his new owl is rubbish...") Maybe I was the only one cringing in disgust and thinking Ron and Draco have more in common than either of them would like to admit? Morgan D. Hogwarts Letters - http://www.hogwartsletters.hpg.com.br From morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com Sat Jun 7 10:36:04 2003 From: morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com (Morgan D.) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 03:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Magical ceremonies (was: Tomboy Lily/Dursleys) In-Reply-To: <1054951957.4650.8343.m7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030607103604.23174.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59503 Finwitch said: > I do think that Harry had a *wizard* naming ceremony. One > that includes some sort of magical blessing. > I do hope we have description of that ceremony and that of a > wedding... > Say, Sirius tells Harry about them - or Harry attends one i.e. > Percy's wedding with Penelope Clearwater in OOP, and in book 7 their > child's naming ceremony as an observer? As much as I love the idea of exotic magical rituals for the Potters' wedding and Harry's naming, and as much as I want to see them described in future books, I doubt it'll happen. JKR has already been facing some fierce religious persecution because of the use of magic in the books. Now, describing the protagonist's parents' wedding as a magical ritual would in all likelihood bring a violent of wave of protests from people claiming such union in unholy, sinful, unacceptable. Moreover, a magical naming ceremony would bring accusations that Sirius, in Harry's name, pledged allegiance to a pagan deity (or the devil), since it wasn't made under the shelter of the Holy Church. (In that perspective, an Anglican priest being a wizard would be equally unacceptable.) So unless a magical wedding/naming ceremony is relevant to the plot, I'm betting JKR will keep her head down and avoid unnecessary polemic, throwing vague words like "wedding", "best man" and "godfather" around and letting the readers pick whatever float their boats: strange rites, christian services, whatever. She strikes me as a person who picks her fights wisely. Just my humble opinion, Morgan D. Hogwarts Letters - http://www.hogwartsletters.hpg.com.br __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From flesch at 012.net.il Sat Jun 7 10:07:25 2003 From: flesch at 012.net.il (gamer5255) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 10:07:25 -0000 Subject: Peter vs. Sirius once again In-Reply-To: <96kpfr+mavt@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59504 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > Katarzyna wrote: > "If it is possible (and easy!) to discover the last spell the wand > performed, why isn't this procedure widely applied - also in Black's > case?" > Hi, by the way, I'm new here, an Israeli teenage Potter fan. This is an issue that's been bugging me fairly, but I've been inspired to a solution by my lurking these past few days after joining the group... Aaaaaaaaaaanyway, Here's MY theory about why PI didn't reveal Sirius's innocence. Picture it: the last ANYONE saw of Peter before this incident was right before he transformed. Why is everyone convinced he left directly afterwards? My theory is, he SWITCHED BLACK'S WAND WITH HIS OWN. It's plausible that part of Sirius's 'shock' reaction is dropping his wand, right? And he might not notice a rat at his feet in that same shock. So, Pettigrew, as a rat, switches the wands(carrying them in his teeth) so the wand that performed the 'explosion' spell is at Sirius's feet, and the 'innocent' wand is near Peter's robes. Now, a call to Ollivander's would have resolved the issue. But Sirius tells us his imprisionment was due to very hurried procedures(i.e, no trial). Would it be so VERY remarkable if they skimped on the investigation? So, a quick PI shows the circumstancial guilt, and in the current state of the country, Crouch's Dark Wizard-catching mania and the Secret Keeper evidence, Sirius is just presumed guilty without a trial, and in the state of things, it slipped. Idea, no? "gamer 5255" From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 7 13:48:33 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 13:48:33 -0000 Subject: Wand Switching (Was Peter vs. Sirius once again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59505 gamer5255 wrote: Picture it: the last ANYONE saw of Peter before this incident was right before he transformed. Why is everyone convinced he left directly afterwards? My theory is, he SWITCHED BLACK'S WAND WITH HIS OWN. It's plausible that part of Sirius's 'shock' reaction is dropping his wand, right? And he might not notice a rat at his feet in that same shock. So, Pettigrew, as a rat, switches the wands(carrying them in his teeth) so the wand that performed the 'explosion' spell is at Sirius's feet, and the 'innocent' wand is near Peter's robes. Kirstini (popping her head up from the life du lurk): Hello! The trouble with this theory is that we know that wands, being personalised to the wizard/witch, don't work as well when used by someone else. Peter is not a very good wizard - we have numerous canon references to back this up - so therefore would be even more limited in the "Flesh of the Servant" spell without his own wand. I have a funny feeling that all this constant reference to Pettigrew's ineptitude is significant. He appears to have managed most spells pretty well so far... I don't think anyone even bothered to PI Sirius's wand, as there was enough "evidence" to convict him anyway: presumed Secret Keeper, dead Muggles, Pettigrew's finger. anyway, back to lurk, Kirstini From prongs at marauders-map.net Sat Jun 7 14:22:44 2003 From: prongs at marauders-map.net (Silver Stag) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 10:22:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione And Bulgaria References: Message-ID: <00af01c32d00$4356fc90$0201a8c0@bettysue> No: HPFGUIDX 59506 snip > > Anyways, I don't think that any responsible parent would let their 15 year old go to stay with a young man that they do not know and who is > some years older that their daughter, in a foreign country no less. Plus, do you think that now that he-who-must-not-be-named is back > she wants to go and her parents let her? I don't really think so. Anni Now me silver stag: You're probably right about the Grangers not allowing Hermione to visit Viktor. I know my parents wouldn't have allowed it when I was 15. The second part of your post brings up an interesting question, though. What do the Grangers know about Voldy and would they believe he's back? I'd guess they would, since we see Hermione as a generally honest person, but what do the rest of you think? now Lorien_Eve: Lurker here, coming briefly out of lurkdom. Yes, Krum *did* attack Cedric (and Fleur, we assume), but he was under the Imperius Curse, cast by Moody!Crouch, so I doubt this is an accurate portrayal of Krum's real personality. now Silver stag again: You're probably right about that. Krum obviously knows how to use at least one unforgivable, and since he's probably about to graduate, I wouldn't be surprised if he knew them all. Minus being under the imperius curse, though, I don't know that he'd normally use them. As a random curiosity, I wonder about his home life. Did he learn those curses at school or somewhere else. Now, finally, a l.o.o.n. point: Krum didn't stun Fleur. Ch. 35 of GoF. "You had an easier time of it than you should have in that maze tonight, of course," said Moody. "I was patrolling around it, able to see through the outer hedges, able to curse many obstacles out of your way. I Stunned Fleur Delacour as she passed. I put the Imperius Curse on Krum, so that he would finish Diggory and leave your path to the cup clear." OK, I'm done rambling now. Betty AKA Silver Stag From prongs at marauders-map.net Sat Jun 7 14:30:40 2003 From: prongs at marauders-map.net (Silver Stag) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 10:30:40 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is History Repeating Itself References: Message-ID: <00b901c32d01$5f1f7460$0201a8c0@bettysue> No: HPFGUIDX 59507 brookeshanks Hey :o) I absolutely agree with you. I think history is to repeat itself up until a certain point. JKR keeps stressing the importance of choosing what is right over what is easy. I think similar circumstances and relationships will emerge in Harry's generation reflecting that of his parents' generation. Then I think some characters (in the present) will make different choices than their > historical counterparts did, and the lesson we learn will be in the consequences of those choices. Did that make sense? I see some of the same analogies that you do... ginny maybe as Lily, Ron as Sirius or Lupin, and possibly Colin Creevey as a future Wormtail. Colin idolizes Harry and wants to be a part of his group in the same way that Peter wanted to hang out with James & his friends. what do you think? Now me: Silver Stag: I've thought about these possible parallels and I don't quite see it. Ginny, Neville and Collin aren't close enough to the trio to act as Lily, Peter or another one of the Marauders. The Marauders had to be a fairly close knit group to work on animagus transformations and the Marauder's Map, and yet we finished up Harry's fourth year and the others don't seem to be much more than a side note in the books. Sure, it could change in the next 3, but I don't see the parallels yet. Betty AKA Silver Stag. From flesch at 012.net.il Sat Jun 7 14:20:41 2003 From: flesch at 012.net.il (gamer5255) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 14:20:41 -0000 Subject: Wand Switching (Was Peter vs. Sirius once again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59508 > Kirstini (popping her head up from the life du lurk): > Hello! The trouble with this theory is that we know that wands, > being personalised to the wizard/witch, don't work as well when used > by someone else. Peter is not a very good wizard - we have numerous > canon references to back this up - so therefore would be even more > limited in the "Flesh of the Servant" spell without his own wand. Well, who said he had to be good? Furthermore, he could've used Voldemort's wand(which is powerful in and of itself) during those spells for the resurrection. The power of the wand could've compensated for the fact that it wasn't his own. I must say, I think Pettigrew's ineptitude is simply relative to the rest of the Marauders'. They're some of the best in the school, Pettigrew's maybe a bit above-average, but he LOOKS terrible in comparison to the best students in the school. And, at any rate, he has enough power to cast AK, so he can't be completely awful. Potter-gamer From leperockon at aol.com Sat Jun 7 14:43:54 2003 From: leperockon at aol.com (taylorlynzie) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 14:43:54 -0000 Subject: Much Ado About Money (concerning the Weasleys) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59509 > Fred Waldrop: > Unless she really did want > him to wear a robe with fringes and lace, or really go naked after > all. I'm sorry but this doesn't really make sense to me. Why would she *want* him to go naked? Ron could risk getting in trouble at school for doing that. As for the fringes and lace, I see it more as a lesson. Don't get me wrong I DO NOT mean a punishment just a lesson that you are not always going to have a lot of money and that you need to learn how to deal with what you have. The Weasleys obviously don't have a lot of money (though this does make them wallowing in poverty) and he has grown up with this all of his life, Molly probably just wanted to use this to help him grow up a little as we all know without arguement that Ron is a *little* immature. This could be a way for her to held nudge him up the maturity ladder. If she constantly was fixing his robes everytime they needed to be fixed he would become spoiled and stay immature. Another valid point is that Molly was prehaps just not thinking about it. She is a very busy woman and fixing her sons "inadequate" dress robes may not be her number one priority. 14 Days in Counting. Tay From leperockon at aol.com Sat Jun 7 15:04:27 2003 From: leperockon at aol.com (taylorlynzie) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 15:04:27 -0000 Subject: Harry/Voldemort and ideas about what I want to see In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59510 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pete_hay2002" wrote: > Hey, I'll get the first comment out the way, first time poster, not > been around all that long so might make some mistakes. > > Right onto the important part, my idea on the Harry/Voldemort > relationship. Firstly I do not think they are related in any way, > although Voldemort is evil and cold blooded I cannot see him trying > to kill his descendants, they should after all be his closest > supporters. Blood being thicker than water and all that, which I > feel is true in the wizarding world, no cannon to support however in > Gof Voldemort used Harry's blood to reverse the effects of the magic > Lilly placed on Harry when she died for him. The only piece of > information I could find that could be used to show a physical > similarity between Harry and Voldemort is the "jet black hair" that > they both have, however since we assume Voldemort would be from > Lilly's side of the family I would expect some reference to his eye > colour if JKR were to be leading up to telling us Harry and > Voldemort are related. The only reference we have to Voldemort's > eyes describe them as red, the opposite of Harry and Lilly's green > eyes. > > My current theory on what is going to happen/ is happening is that > Harry is the sole descendant of Godric Gryffindor, and Voldemort is > the only descendant of Salazar Slytherin. My theory, which is no > more than that (and will almost definitely change on the 21st of > June) is that Voldemort knew this and attempted to eradicate his > ancestor/mentor's family forever, thus ending the century old feud > between the two founders. There will be more reasons to this (maybe > some prophecy that the only people that can stop the descendants of > Slytherin are Gryffindor's descendants? As Godric stopped Slazar). > Lilly ruined Voldemort idea for sumpremacy (she could not stop him > as she was a muggle born, therefore probably no magic family blood > in her). This does not explain why James could not stop him but it > is still my theory. > > Another idea floating around my head is that Arthur Weasley will be > involved in a wizards duel with Lucuis Malfoy, they are bound to end > up duelling at some point, I cannot see JKR not including that > through the rest of the series. The fan of Harry could be anyone > from Hagrid to Ron (cant see it happening) to someone he met in the > Leaky Cauldron, it is imposible to predict for me, I cannot wait to > read it to find out. > > Right I'm finished my ramblings for now, final apology incase these > topics have been covered and thanks for reading, I look forward to > any replies to my first ever post! > > No longer a lurker! Now a poster! > Yours, Peter Welcome Peter! I agree with you theory almost entirely. I DO NOT see how Voldemort and Harry would be related. JKR even mentioned in an interview at the question of weather Voldemort was really Harry's father or something and she replied: 'Well that would be very Star Wars wouldn't it?'. Unless she was teasing to get people distracted from the idea but even then I can't really see it happening. As you said there is only one tiny fringe of cannon to support this. And that support is very scarce, just because someone has the same colour hair as another does not make them instant relatives. I'm sure there are red heads in Slytherin but this does not make them long lost relatives of the Weasleys (an -as far as we know- almost entirely Gryffindor legacy.) I also agree that Harry could be the descendant of Godric Gryffindor- this however may be a little cliche- however if going on the basis that Voldemort is the only last remaining descendant of Salazar Slytherin *maybe* just maybe Harry is not the *sole* descendant of Godric Gryffindor but prehaps the only last remaining descendent like Voldemort. This might explain why Voldemort was after James- not saying that he was the direct descendant but it could've been James' grand-father and the killing of James and Harry as was his intention would've killed off the last of the descendants of Gryffindors legacy whether direct or not. As for the Arthur/Lucius dueling is entirely possible as this was set up slightly in cannon in CoS during the Flourish and Blotts escapade. I haven't really thought all that much about this subject but I suppose it could very likely happen. All in all I think that the reason that they are fighting other then that the Voldemort=Salazar and Harry=Gryffindor is that it is the classic struggle betweeen good and evil. Harry represents everything that is good in the wizarding world (not to say that Harry is perfect because he isn't and he makes his makes his mistakes what I mean by everything that is good is that he is fighting of the good of the Wizard World.) while Voldemort represents all of the evils, and predijuces in the entire world and that this could be the last of the big struggles between good and evil. As for now all we can do is sit around and hope that history repeats its self and that good will prevail over evil. Tay 14 Days and Counting. From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Sat Jun 7 16:37:00 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 16:37:00 -0000 Subject: Much Ado About Money (concerning the Weasleys) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59511 "taylorlynzie" wrote: Fred Waldrop wrote:(message # 59492) Instead of offering to help fix the robes, Ron's mum just tells him to "go naked." If Ron could take the fringe and lace off in a couple seconds while walking down the stairs to the ball, not knowing what he was doing, why didn't his mum try to fix them herself, instead of argueing about him having to wear them as is? Even if she did not have much time, she could have given her son 5 minutes to try and fix his robes properly. Unless she really did want him to wear a robe with fringes and lace, or really go naked after all. "taylorlynzie" wrote: I'm sorry but this doesn't really make sense to me. Why would she *want* him to go naked? Ron could risk getting in trouble at school for doing that. As for the fringes and lace, I see it more as a lesson. Don't get me wrong I DO NOT mean a punishment just a lesson that you are not always going to have a lot of money and that you need to learn how to deal with what you have. The Weasleys obviously don't have a lot of money (though this does make them wallowing in poverty) and he has grown up with this all of his life, Molly probably just wanted to use this to help him grow up a little as we all know without arguement that Ron is a *little* immature. This could be a way for her to held nudge him up the maturity ladder. If she constantly was fixing his robes everytime they needed to be fixed he would become spoiled and stay immature. Another valid point is that Molly was prehaps just not thinking about it. She is a very busy woman and fixing her sons "inadequate" dress robes may not be her number one priority. Tay Hello all, Fred Waldrop here, again: Do you really believe that by making Ron wear a robe that looks like a girls dress will help him grow up? How on earth did you come up with that idea? As for it being a lesson, I can not see any lesson except that his mother does not care what her son looks like. And as for "dealing with what you have", wouldn't it make more sense to show him how to fix something that isn't right instead of just trying to use it like it is? That is what most people said about broken his wand, if he had asked for help, he would have received it, and his wand would have been in better shape. But instead of that, you say he needs to fix things himself and never ask for help, or just live with it like it is, no matter how bad it looks or works. And them not having much money has nothing to do with the fact that if SHE would have taken a couple minutes and taken the lace off, the robe would have been much more exceptable. But, as you say, apparently her son is not her number one priority, and that is a sad thing to say about any mother. Good thing Lily did not have the same attitude or this would have been a very different book. Also, I do not remember reading anything about Fred or George having to wear girls robes. Neither do I remember reading that Ginny had to wear a boys robe to the dance. The only person that had to dress "inadequate" was Ron. And it would NOT have cost ONE KNUT for her to have removed the fringe and lace from Ron's robe, just a couple of minutes of her time. Fred Waldrop From siskiou at earthlink.net Sat Jun 7 17:36:50 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 10:36:50 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Much Ado About Money (concerning the Weasleys) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <133156091562.20030607103650@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 59512 Hi, Saturday, June 07, 2003, 9:37:00 AM, Fred wrote: > And it would NOT have cost ONE KNUT for > her to have removed the fringe and lace from Ron's robe, just a > couple of minutes of her time. I agree. And I can't understand why so many people expect 14 year olds to be all mature and perfectly understanding of any situation, especially one that involves personal embarrassment. Notice Harry's feelings in this scene, before he seen his own robes, anticipating his to look like Ron's: ********* "Don't be so silly," said Mrs. Weasley. "You've got to have dress robes, they're on your list! I got some for Harry too. . . show him, Harry... ." In some trepidation, Harry opened the last parcel on his camp bed. It wasn't as bad as he had expected, however;... ********* Why would it be so wrong for Molly to help her son out? It's not as if Ron constantly asks for things. He knows they can't afford much. And it must feel a little hurtful to see Molly's adoration for Harry in contrast to her treatment of Ron, sometimes, though Ron hasn't shown any resentment so far. I'm not sure I could handle it as well as Ron does at his age. And I've seen someone mention Ron "insulting" Sirius' gift, Pig, and how they were expecting Harry to throw it back at Ron, later. I'm sure Harry didn't take this insult half as seriously as some of the readers and he probably has completely forgotten about it. Ron is frustrated and angry, understandably, and I'm sure he loves Pig (who is endearing, but also a bit annoying; almost a little like Ron ;) ). Ron seems to be using a well known tactic of putting his own things down, before someone else can do it, so it will look as if it doesn't hurt his feelings (or am I the only one, who has ever used it?). -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From jillily3g at yahoo.com Sat Jun 7 17:28:58 2003 From: jillily3g at yahoo.com (jillily3g) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 17:28:58 -0000 Subject: Did Sirius have a knife? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59513 Grey Wolf wrote: A knive-maker receiving an order for a knive to be sent to Sirius Black is not going to be as pleased. And as I said, Sirius cannot simply have it sent to his old house, since it'll probably be under close watch by the MoM. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf It did help thanks :) I should have clarified that I was thinking of Harry's knife. I was just thinking, there doesn't seem to be any restrictions on what the students can receive, and Hermione, for example, received some "dangerous" hate mail after Rita Skeeter's article. As a student, I would have hated to have my mail screened as much as I hated seeing the school newspaper censored (freedom of the press does not apply to high school journalism), but as a parent, I'd be concerned if my child was receiving mail with say, bubotuber pus! Beth From btk6y at virginia.edu Sat Jun 7 18:29:27 2003 From: btk6y at virginia.edu (btk6y) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 18:29:27 -0000 Subject: Connection between Voldemort and Fawkes? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59514 Many of the prevailing HP theories revolve around Harry=heir of Gryffindor and Voldie=heir of Slytherin... Gryffindor v. Slytherin in the final battle, etc. Harry's Slytherin qualities such as Parseltongue being explained by transfer of power from the curse that failed. Fawkes the phoenix is also believed by many to once have been Godric's pet originally and seems to be tied to Gryffindor. This all makes a lot of sense and would easily fit the archetype of the mythic, epic struggle of good v. evil. Assuming these theories to be the most plausible and widely held... how in the heck did Riddle/Voldemort choose a wand from Fawkes? Or rather (as Ollivander might say), why did a wand containing a feather from Fawkes choose Riddle? Especially if Fawkes is inextricably tied to Gryffindor... it seems odd that the heir of Slytherin would be destined for that wand. It's easy to see how Harry would be destined for the brother wand for a variety of reasons... if he is related to Godric, or from his connection with Voldie from the curse that failed, etc... but Riddle/Voldemort was the original one to choose the Fawkes wand. I think JKR loves the idea of fate and I figure that she must have a reason why the heir of Slytherin was destined for Fawkes' wand. Maybe Fawkes is not tied to Gryffindor... I don't know. Any thoughts? Bobby From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Jun 7 18:30:50 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 18:30:50 -0000 Subject: Harry and Tommy (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59515 I really should hold this one back until Book Five, but it's demanding to be released. Harry and Tommy To the tune of Lucy and Jessie by Stephen Sondheim (originally in Follies, but cut from the premiere) Dedicated to Lilac Here's a little story that may sound bizarre But has won some great acclaim. I'll sing you of Harry P and Tommy R That is, He-Who-Can't Be-Named. Now Harry has the bravey And Fawkes from the aviary And that's why he belongs in Gryffindor. Tommy has audacity And being neo-fascist, he. Transformed himself into Lord Voldemort Given these antagonists You may know why These two share such bitter hate Canon so narrates Their fate Harry's a hero And has been since birth Tommy would domi- Nate all of the earth Harry's just a year old, he Tommy calls himself Voldy Harry's safe with his Mommy Till Tommy tarries Scary Tommy has worries About Lilly's son. Harry must hurry Or his life is done Tommy tries to kill Harry, Mommy tries to flee Tommy Then he's hit by a bomb, the Giant tsunami. Poor old Vold Shattered and then scattered whole. Harry gains powers that Tommy bore Tommy, harried, now must head off-shore Harry's with Dursleys Just barely he's fed. Tommy's entombed, he Is virtually dead. Harry ain't got a prayer, he Tommy's deep in despair, see But Harry and Tommy will once more collide And that they will someday The fate of the whole world decide! Now if you see Harry P, Youthful, truthful Harry P, Tell him don't compel him into therapy! Now if you see Tommy R Snaky, sneaky Tommy R Tell him antebellum times went *au revior* Wary Harry Swami Tommy. Ask 'em when they plan to get together next, 'Cause when they get together, they'll be both hexed! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sat Jun 7 18:48:30 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 14:48:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Much Ado About Money (concerning the Weasleys) Message-ID: <152.201d1aa4.2c138d7e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59516 In a message dated 6/7/03 12:39:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, fredwaldrop at yahoo.com writes: > Do you really believe that by making Ron wear a robe that looks like > a girls dress will help him grow up? How on earth did you come up > with that idea? > As for it being a lesson, I can not see any lesson except that his > mother does not care what her son looks like. And as for "dealing > with what you have", wouldn't it make more sense to show him how to > fix something that isn't right instead of just trying to use it like > it is? That is what most people said about broken his wand, if he had > asked for help, he would have received it, and his wand would have > been in better shape. But instead of that, you say he needs to fix > things himself and never ask for help, or just live with it like it > is, no matter how bad it looks or works. > And them not having much money has nothing to do with the fact that > if SHE would have taken a couple minutes and taken the lace off, the > robe would have been much more exceptable. But, as you say, > apparently her son is not her number one priority, and that is a sad > thing to say about any mother. Good thing Lily did not have the same > attitude or this would have been a very different book. > Also, I do not remember reading anything about Fred or George having > to wear girls robes. Neither do I remember reading that Ginny had to > wear a boys robe to the dance. The only person that had to > dress "inadequate" was Ron. And it would NOT have cost ONE KNUT for > her to have removed the fringe and lace from Ron's robe, just a > couple of minutes of her time. Are we positive that it *really* looked like a girl's dress? We are talking about the POV of a fourteen year old boy -- things look different to them. I personally think it *will* help him grow up because it's not about what you look like on the outside, it's who you are on the inside. Ron had better well learn that because things are about to get a lot darker in the WW, and no one is going to have time to listen to him complain about the state of his robes. It's not about Molly not caring, but she has other kids to attend to. For all we know, she has just had a talk like this with Fred and George. To focus on your point about the robes of Fred and George, I think that if the twins got robes like that, they would take it better. They'd manage to laugh it off - Ron hasn't learned how to laugh at himself yet. I can just see the twins spinning about, telling everyone they're the "latest fashion". "Her son is not her number one priority"? Ron isn't her only son. She has to worry about Fred, George, and Ginny, too. She can't focus all her time on Ronnykins. I think Molly's family is her priority numero uno, but how would it look if she dwelled on Ron? This all goes back to asking for help. Ron never asked anyone. He just went off on one of his "everything I own is rubbish" tangents. Molly didn't really want him to go naked. She's stressed (and with all the kids she has, it's amazing she isn't crazy! I had to watch nine little girls during musical and they almost drove me crazy.) I do notice, though, that no one faults Arthur for not removing the lace. He was there, right? I know that he was off running around because of the QWC disaster, but didn't they see him before they left? When everyone talks about Ron's wand or anything of Ron's, they blame Molly. What about Arthur? Is he blameless? ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ --Ronnykins would be a cool song. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Sat Jun 7 19:34:30 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 19:34:30 -0000 Subject: Much Ado About Money (concerning the Weasleys) In-Reply-To: <152.201d1aa4.2c138d7e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59517 fredwaldrop at y... writes: Do you really believe that by making Ron wear a robe that looks like a girls dress will help him grow up? How on earth did you come up with that idea? As for it being a lesson, I can not see any lesson except that his mother does not care what her son looks like. And as for "dealing with what you have", wouldn't it make more sense to show him how to fix something that isn't right instead of just trying to use it like it is? That is what most people said about broken his wand, if he had asked for help, he would have received it, and his wand would have been in better shape. But instead of that, you say he needs to fix things himself and never ask for help, or just live with it like it is, no matter how bad it looks or works. And them not having much money has nothing to do with the fact that if SHE would have taken a couple minutes and taken the lace off, the robe would have been much more exceptable. But, as you say, apparently her son is not her number one priority, and that is a sad thing to say about any mother. Good thing Lily did not have the same attitude or this would have been a very different book. Also, I do not remember reading anything about Fred or George having to wear girls robes. Neither do I remember reading that Ginny had to wear a boys robe to the dance. The only person that had to dress "inadequate" was Ron. And it would NOT have cost ONE KNUT for her to have removed the fringe and lace from Ron's robe, just a couple of minutes of her time. SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: Are we positive that it *really* looked like a girl's dress? We are talking about the POV of a fourteen year old boy -- things look different to them. I personally think it *will* help him grow up because it's not about what you look like on the outside, it's who you are on the inside. Ron had better well learn that because things are about to get a lot darker in the WW, and no one is going to have time to listen to him complain about the state of his robes. It's not about Molly not caring, but she has other kids to attend to. For all we know, she has just had a talk like this with Fred and George. To focus on your point about the robes of Fred and George, I think that if the twins got robes like that, they would take it better. They'd manage to laugh it off - Ron hasn't learned how to laugh at himself yet. I can just see the twins spinning about, telling everyone they're the "latest fashion"."Her son is not her number one priority"? Ron isn't her only son. She has to worry about Fred, George, and Ginny, too. She can't focus all her time on Ronnykins. I think Molly's family is her priority numero uno, but how would it look if she dwelled on Ron? This all goes back to asking for help. Ron never asked anyone. He just went off on one of his "everything I own is rubbish" tangents. Molly didn't really want him to go naked. She's stressed (and with all the kids she has, it's amazing she isn't crazy! I had to watch nine little girls during musical and they almost drove me crazy.) I do notice, though, that no one faults Arthur for not removing the lace. He was there, right? I know that he was off running around because of the QWC disaster, but didn't they see him before they left? When everyone talks about Ron's wand or anything of Ron's, they blame Molly. What about Arthur? Is he blameless? ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ Hello everyone, Fred Waldrop here: Unless we are to assume that Ron is lieing about what the robe looked like,(and Harry seemed to pretty much agree with Ron, "In some trepidation, Harry opened his last parcel on his camp bed. It wasn't as bad as he expected..."), so yes, I do believe it looked like a girls dress. And I still can not see how making a 15 year old boy wear something that looks like a girls dress will make him grow up. Everyone keeps saying Ron did not ask for help, but accually, Ron did ask for help, in his own way. He might not have begged his mum to fix his robe, but he did basicly ask for help. (Page 156 & 157, GoF, US) Mum, you've given me Ginny's new dress.... Of course I haven't, said Mrs Weasley. That's for you. Dress robes. What?, said Ron, looking horror struck. Dress robes! repeated Mrs Weasley.... You've got to be kidding, said Ron in disbelief. I'm not wearing that, no way. Everyone wears them, Ron! said Mrs Weasley crossly. They're all like that.... I'll go starkers before I put that on, said Ron stubbornly. Don't be silly, you've got to have dress robes, they're on your list.... I'm never wearing them, Ron said stubbornly. Never. Fine, snapped Mrs. Weasley. Go naked.... As a child, I had to wear second hand cloths, and while I did not complain that much, I too had my limits. And where does everyone get that Ron complains a whole lot. In the 4 books, covering 4 years, I do not think I remember Ron complaining about his situation more than 3 or 4 times, if that many. How is that being immuture? I will bet that most of everyone else in this group complained a whole lot more than that. Also, I do not understand why people keep talking about "it's what's on the inside, not the outside that counts". Are you all that old that you do not remember how it was at 15? how many boys out there would just put on something that looked like a girls dress and not complain? I WOULD have went naked before that (accually, I would not have went to the ball at all. I know I did not have enough money to go to my prom, so I stayed home). And lastly, I never said she had to spend ALL of her time with Ron, but some are saying she should NOT spend even a few minutes with him. He is her son, and unless people think Ron is better at magic than Molly, why couldn't she take a minute to take the lace off instead of argueing about how Ron must wear the robe as is, or go naked? Fred Waldrop ps; As for Arthur not helping, I do not remember if he was at home at that time. But if Ron had waited up for him to come in from work and ask him to help then, I bet a lot of folks would be talking about how inconsiderate he was for keeping his poor old tired dad up to do something so trivial as fixing his robe. From jmmears at comcast.net Sat Jun 7 19:54:27 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 19:54:27 -0000 Subject: Ginny's dress, Ron's Attitude (was: Saving Every Sickle) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59518 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Morgan D." wrote: > I've been following the thread about the Weasleys and their > relationship with money with great interest, and there are two > questions I'd like to ask. year, > right? In the same message, Darrin reminded us: > > THEN, after Molly leaves, Pidgwigeon gets an owl treat stuck in his > > beak and Ron vents about, "Everything I own is rubbish." > > > > HELLO! THAT WAS A GIFT, YOU UNGRATEFUL LITTLE GIT! Sirius GAVE Ron > > a gift of an owl, saying, "It's my fault he no longer has a rat." > > I remember being taken aback when I first read that passage in GoF. > Because I was already becoming very fond of Pigwidgeon and because > Sirius is my favourite character, but moreover because Ron was > calling "rubbish" a present from Sirius *in front of Sirius' godson!* > I've been wondering if this is a cultural thing, maybe this is not > such an appalling faux-pas in England, but I can't help thinking of > it as a horrible, horrible gesture. Hi Morgan D. I'm not British, but I did live in the UK for 2 years in the early 90s, and I can say that IMO as an American, this is a major cultural difference. This isn't to say that I found British people rude at all. It's just that very often, some of them (gross generalization coming) tend to express themselves in a style that Americans can perceive as quite harsh. We lived there as part of a contigent of Americans who were on a multi-year international assignment, and for the first two months many of us were stunned at some of the things people said out loud, and the women in particular often felt offended. No harm is meant by it; it's just that many British people don't tend to verbally pull their punches in regular conversation. It's especially obvious in many of the TV comedies in the UK, where there is no such thing as being PC and the jokes can be *very* rough to American ears. From some of JKR's TV interviews, I imagine her to be a very direct sort of person, and I think that this is reflected in her writing. I don't think that it would ever occur to her that Harry would be offended by Ron's referring to Pig that way. Look at how he spoke about Scabbers, whom he dearly loved in spite of the disparaging words. Morgan continued: > Picture this hypothetical scene: Gryffindor dorm, Christmas morning, > our heroes open their presents. Harry holds up the newest jumper > knitted to him by Molly and mutters, "Everything I own is rubbish." > Wouldn't Ron feel insulted? *I* can see the smoke coming out his > ears, but maybe it's just me. I think that this is an entirely different situation. Even Sirius wasn't impressed with Pig, and said so in his letter to Harry. It's not as if he worked hard to *create* Pig . It sounded as if he just picked him up on the cheap. Morgan wrote: > When later in the book Harry and Ron stopped talking to each other, I > kept thinking of Ron's attitude in that scene and expecting to see it > mentioned again, to see Harry throw it at Ron's face in the > typical "remember this? remember that?" that erupts when people who > like each other and tend to overlook each other's faults finally lose > their patience and explode in a fight. But it never came, not even as > a passing comment from the narrator. That's because Harry hasn't been supressing any resentments toward Ron at that point. I can't think of a single instance in the first 3 books where Harry is ever annoyed or offended by anything Ron says or does. Morgan concludes: > So maybe my reaction was not what JKR had intended to get from her > readers when she wrote that scene? Maybe it *is* a cultural thing, > and having Ron complaining about a gift from Sirius in front of Harry > was meant to be endearing? ("Poor Ron, such a bad luck, even his new > owl is rubbish...") Maybe I was the only one cringing in disgust and > thinking Ron and Draco have more in common than either of them would > like to admit? Well, THAT was a low blow ! (Sorry, but comparing Ron to that miserable Malfoy kid always sets me off.) All I can say, is that any Americans planning to spend time actually living in England had better start growing thicker skins, because they will be needed. I was going to say that, of course, all of the above is JMHO, but actually the part about Americans reaction to normal British verbal style was observed by just about every other American woman I knew while living there. Most of us got used to it and formed lovely friendships, but it was jarring at first. I'd love to hear some input from some of our British listmembers. Are any of you aware of this particular "cultural difference"? Jo Serenadust From salsal19 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 7 18:52:00 2003 From: salsal19 at yahoo.com (Sally Unchester) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 11:52:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OOP:Harry Suspension? and Ron money Message-ID: <20030607185200.88556.qmail@web80507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59519 hey y'all- I was just thinking about some things....someone not too long ago had stated that maybe Harry was suspended and that's why the new place is going to be "even more magical than we know" as JKR put it.... In my eyes, that doesn't make sense as to what it going to happen in the book that we know of..DD is supposed to play a big role in it and so that means Harry will probably still be at Hogwarts and how come Hogwarts can't become more magical? Usually in each book,JKR shows us something we didn't know that was at Hogwarts.....maybe Hogwarts can magically be moved....for everyone's safety that is. Also,usually Ron and Hermione are with Harry when they cause the most trouble so technically all three would be suspended if you look at this logically,would they not? Any way, on a different note, in COS Ron's wand broke trying to get Harry and himself to Hogwarts.....how come Harry didn't go out and buy Harry a new wand? I know Ron would not ask for it but maybe for a Christmas gift or something....I dunno just a thought I had. Also, I came up with one more thing that has to do with all the books.....how are we going to leave Harry in book seven? Is he going to be dead, memory charmed, maybe wake up and realize it was all a dream? What does everyone else think? Oh well,just a post before I get too busy packing to see some friends in Florida and then off to Europe again......I return on the Friday before OOP comes out! Still counting down the days.... Sally "I'M going to bed before either of you get us into any more trouble that can get us killed...or WORSE expelled!"-Hermione Granger "She needs to sort out her priorities"-Ron Weasley "Tom...Tom Riddle.....give me my wand,Tom"-Harry Potter --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmmears at comcast.net Sat Jun 7 20:04:48 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 20:04:48 -0000 Subject: Much Ado About Money (concerning the Weasleys) In-Reply-To: <133156091562.20030607103650@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59520 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > Ron is frustrated and angry, understandably, and I'm sure he > loves Pig (who is endearing, but also a bit annoying; almost > a little like Ron ;) ). > > Ron seems to be using a well known tactic of putting his own > things down, before someone else can do it, so it will look > as if it doesn't hurt his feelings (or am I the only one, > who has ever used it?). This is a very astute observation, Susanne, and I think you're right about why Ron does this (no, you *certainly* aren't the only one who has ever used it!). And we all know that *someone* ALWAYS puts Ron's things down as well as insulting his family's poverty, so it's not as if he's being overly sensitive about it, is it? He already knows perfectly well that the ever-kindly Draco never misses an opportunity to hurt his feelings. Jo Serenadust, polishing her C.R.A.B. badge From shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 7 20:43:30 2003 From: shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com (viewsonpotter) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 20:43:30 -0000 Subject: Ron and Pig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59521 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "serenadust" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > > > > > Ron is frustrated and angry, understandably, and I'm sure he > > loves Pig (who is endearing, but also a bit annoying; almost > > a little like Ron ;) ). > > > > Ron seems to be using a well known tactic of putting his own > > things down, before someone else can do it, so it will look > > as if it doesn't hurt his feelings (or am I the only one, > > who has ever used it?). > > This is a very astute observation, Susanne, and I think you're right > about why Ron does this (no, you *certainly* aren't the only one who > has ever used it!). > Hi I re-read GoF just to see exactly how and where Ron whines about Pig (the lengths i go to for this boy!) The first time we see Ron and Pig together he tells Harry 'He (Pig) annoys Eroll and Hermes, he annoys me too' Harry knew better than to take Ron seriously. Ron had always complained about Scabbers but had been genuinely upset when he disappeared. (paraphrased) Seems Harry knows that Ron's whining is more of a way of showing affection, and he knows his friend doesn't he? Shaggy (who would love to know what C.R.A.B stands for) From rstephens at northwestern.edu Sat Jun 7 20:51:54 2003 From: rstephens at northwestern.edu (rachelbeth007) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 20:51:54 -0000 Subject: C.R.A.B. stands for... (Was: Ron and Pig) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59522 > Shaggy (who would love to know what C.R.A.B stands for) CRAB stands for Cut Ron A Break. An entire database of HPfGU acronyms can be found at Inish Alley in the "Database" section. Rachel From elfundeb at comcast.net Sat Jun 7 20:56:00 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 16:56:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Much Ado About Money (concerning the Weasleys) References: <002b01c32ab5$73cd7e00$65570043@hppav> Message-ID: <002f01c32d37$33aaf940$9ddc5644@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 59523 Chiming in late, once again, responding to days-old posts -- Eric Oppen wrote: > My own take is that while Ron could have handled the > situation better, Molly and Arthur are a long way from being free of fault. > > Firstly, the Weasley parents don't seem to have their heads on quite > straight as regards money. When you've got four kids in boarding school, > and books to buy for them for five years into the future, spending a > windfall on a trip to Egypt strikes me as slightly insane. Far better > IMNSHO to have put that money into a "Weasley Children School Fund" and > budgeted it for new robes, books and so on---and _then_ seen if the family > finances would stretch as far as a trip to Egypt for all. This is always such a contentious issue whenever it comes up on the list. I suspect it's because money priorities are so closely related to one's core values. Putting the prize money into an educational fund is obviously a good thing to do with the money. Taking the family on a special trip is also a good thing. Choosing between them can be difficult. JKR chose to have the Weasleys take the trip, which tells us something about *which* value goes at the top of the Weasleys' list. It's just another way for JKR to remind us that the Weasleys -- even Percy -- put their family first. Having grown up in a family where everything was secondhand and the public schools were always good enough, but the family vacation was sacrosanct, the Weasleys' choice seems natural to me. > One of my learned colleagues here, I disremember who, said that Ron seems to > be obsessed with money, and that he's the only Weasley who is. I'd like to > point out that Ron is also the Weasley who gets by far the most "screen > time," and that the Twins certainly seem to be interested in money---one > recurring leitmotif in _GoF_ turns out to be their attempts to get Ludo > Bagman to pay up on the gambling debt he ran up to them. We hardly _see_ > Charlie, Bill or Percy enough to know how they feel, but Percy's slightly > obsessive desire to please his bosses might come from a fierce determination > to keep his job and be making money. And Fred Waldrop added: As for it being a lesson, I can not see any lesson except that his mother does not care what her son looks like. And as for "dealing with what you have", wouldn't it make more sense to show him how to fix something that isn't right instead of just trying to use it like it is? Me (Debbie): I think Molly's actions in the dress robes scene reflects her own sensitivity about the family poverty. While I think she's on board with Arthur's favoring principles over promotion at the Ministry, seeing Ron's distress about the lace robes in comparison to what Harry's money can buy is very painful to her. The point at which she is said to have flushed is when she has to explain to Ron why his robes aren't like Harry's. At that point she reacts by making a quick exit. Thus, perhaps her own feelings prevent her from telling Ron how he can fix the robes at that time. However, we don't know that Molly didn't owl Ron later with instructions on how to fix it, and Ron didn't do anything about it until the last minute. In any event, Molly's failure to fix Ron's robes for him also helps to set up the Yule Ball scene. The matter of the embarrassing dress robes, and the hastily executed Severing Charm, puts Ron in a bad mood before he ever leaves Gryffindor Tower. His behavior later that evening was awful, but his preexisting mood makes it more understandable. Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote: I also get the feeling that Arthur has made some decisions career-wise that might have affected the family's monetary status. Didn't Molly mention that Arthur could have been promoted at the MoM if he had professed different beliefs about Muggles? Arthur Weasley reminds me of the kind of person who is well-educated and has every opportunity out there, but chooses to be a social worker (or *ahem* a NYC teacher) instead of a stock broker. He seems to enjoy his job, and never complains about having to work overtime. Me (Debbie): I've wondered before why Molly pushes her sons toward Ministry jobs when Arthur's Ministry job is barely enough to support the family. There is some sense on this list that it's evidence of Molly's ambition and consequent frustration with Arthur's failure to advance. However, Molly's objective for her children is not simply for them to become financially successful. If that was the case, she'd be thrilled with Fred and George's budding business enterprise. Perhaps she's pushing her children toward positions of honor in the WW. On the other hand, maybe she wants them to go into the Ministry as reformers. . Part of that might be an effort to change the prevailing attitude over there (to which Dumbledore alludes in The Parting of the Ways) that favors purebloods. We know Percy has ideas about reforming the Ministry. And Arthur, in spite of his lowly position in an obscure office, seems to be important at the Ministry, because first, he seems to have worked hard to develop relationships with Ministry officials in other departments (even if some of it is by helping those people do an end run around the rules) and he's willing to throw himself into the thick of things. Getting a few more activist Weasleys into the Ministry might, in Molly's mind, make a difference. > Jenny again: Ron needs to find a way to be more content with who he is, or to find a way out of poverty, instead of wallowing, as he now prone to do. As nice as it would be for Ron to have the spotlight (he certainly enjoyed it in PoA and GoF when he was in it), it is an unlikely scenario for him in the long-run and permanently, IMO. Besides, who says he can't do great things quietly? Me (Debbie): You've hit on what I think is a major theme that JKR is exploring in different ways with all of the major student characters. As with any "coming of age" novel, the characters need to come to grips with who *they* are. That includes dealing with and accepting their own circumstances and family or working to forge a new identity. Unlike Harry and Neville, for example, it seems that Ron should be better off with his large supportive family. However, the Weasley family story doesn't add up -- they're a prominent pureblood family, the kind the Ministry seems to be so fond of, and yet they're poor and his dad has a dead-end job, with no explanation why. Ron's apparent indifference toward his studies is, I think, in part his way of dealing with this issue. He's expected to succeed, but doesn't know what the point of his success would be. Expressing frustration with his poverty is another way of dealing with this seeming contradiction, just like wanting to be noticed is a way of dealing with his position as a younger child whose older siblings have done it all before him. Eric: > I think that in _OoP_ we might well get some more background on the > Weasleys, including maybe why they're so poor. I'll cast my vote for Imperius!Arthur, perhaps with a dash of Auror!Arthur the Muggle-lover, being forced by Lucius Malfoy to torture muggles while feeling "a vague untraceable happiness," now acquitted but shunted off to an office that deals with enchanted artifacts that play tricks on Muggles. I like the irony. Oh, and let's throw in a helping of Filicide!Arthur for good measure. ;-} Debbie who always wears her C.R.A.B. badge proudly [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 7 21:06:46 2003 From: shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com (viewsonpotter) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 21:06:46 -0000 Subject: Ron and Pig- part 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59524 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Morgan D." wrote: > > In the same message, Darrin reminded us: > > THEN, after Molly leaves, Pidgwigeon gets an owl treat stuck in his > > beak and Ron vents about, "Everything I own is rubbish." > > > > HELLO! THAT WAS A GIFT, YOU UNGRATEFUL LITTLE GIT! Sirius GAVE Ron > > a gift of an owl, saying, "It's my fault he no longer has a rat." > > I remember being taken aback when I first read that passage in GoF. > Because I was already becoming very fond of Pigwidgeon and because > Sirius is my favourite character, but moreover because Ron was > calling "rubbish" a present from Sirius *in front of Sirius' godson! * > I've been wondering if this is a cultural thing, maybe this is not > such an appalling faux-pas in England, but I can't help thinking of > it as a horrible, horrible gesture. > > Picture this hypothetical scene: Gryffindor dorm, Christmas morning, > our heroes open their presents. Harry holds up the newest jumper > knitted to him by Molly and mutters, "Everything I own is rubbish." > Wouldn't Ron feel insulted? *I* can see the smoke coming out his > ears, but maybe it's just me. > Ok the Mods are going to kill me. Actually i dashed off the previous post without reading all the earlier ones so this point actually belonged right there, i just forgot. sorry. My point is. This quotation is taken out of context. It comes right at the end of the much discusssed Dress robes scene. Ron is very upset, not just about having to wear something he will be laughed at but also his mothers seeming indifference. (Come on, as someone pointed out, she could have done the severing charm herself, and done a neater job) So i read the comment as directed toward the robes, havent we all sometimes taken out our frustration at whatever is at hand, rather than the actual cause? And that is exactly how Harry saw it, not as a disparagement of his Godfather's gift but a venting of anger at things beyond control. > So maybe my reaction was not what JKR had intended to get from her > readers when she wrote that scene? Maybe it *is* a cultural thing, > and having Ron complaining about a gift from Sirius in front of Harry > was meant to be endearing? ("Poor Ron, such a bad luck, even his new > owl is rubbish...") Maybe I was the only one cringing in disgust and > thinking Ron and Draco have more in common than either of them would > like to admit? The only thing Ron and Draco have in common is the letter R in thier names But that is just my opinion :) Shaggy From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Sat Jun 7 23:26:56 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 23:26:56 -0000 Subject: OOP: The mirror of Erised In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59525 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Serena Moonsilver" > > > But, though being Head Boy, Quidditch Captain and holding the House > Cup are shown in the mirror for Ron, he was also _alone_. What Ron > wants, is gain his brothers achievements together. > > Harry - it's not his _parents_ he wants, but a loving and accepting > family they represent, the idealized picture of them. > -- Finwitch Maybe its just me, but I think that's reading a bit into it. Yes the images does represent Harry wanting a loving home, but even the most wonderful, loving home still won't truly replace his parents. They are always going to hold a special and important place in his heart because of the sacrifice they made on his behalf. He not only wants to bring them back for himself, but to make up for the sacrafice they made on his behalf. He can't have them back but the mirror offers a tantalizing glimpse of what it might be like, hence he is drawn to it. Likewise, the image Ron sees is also representive of his desire (to stand out, to accomplish more than his brothers). However, his goal is achieveable if he works hard enough. It may not manifest exactly as he sees it in the mirror but still it's possible. And deep down, Ron knows that if he sits around looking at a mirror all day, he isn't going to achieve his goal. Hence, his reaction is to be a little creeped out by it (quote anyone from SS/PS?--my copy got lost when we moved recently) where as Harry is enchanted with it because it shows him a possibility he could not otherwise achieve. Serena From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Sat Jun 7 23:39:35 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 01:39:35 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: The mirror of Erised References: <3EE1606D.5090201@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <001501c32d4e$0e9ee820$d606243e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 59526 > > > > digger wrote: > > My prediction for OOP is similar. (it might have been aired here before, > apols in advance if so) > > Harry does go to see his parents in the land of the dead, but he does it > while he is still alive. A portal to the land of the dead is in that > mysterious room we know he has not yet found. (I think that room is > something like the mirror of erised, it shows you what you desire, like > Dumbledore's chamber pots) > > The Order of the Phoenix is an honour awarded to those individuals who > manage to travel to the land of the dead while alive, and sucessfully > return to the land of the living. So Harry will be able to visit his > parents, but because they are dead, he won't be able to bring them back > through the door. > > I bet that Dumbledore, as a most powerful wizard, can do this. > Conversly, Voldemort, by being in fear of death, and seeking > immortality, has never attempted it. If Harry can do this, he will gain > power and knowledge that V will never have, and this will aid him in the > fight against Voldemort. > Me (Fridwulfa): So what we have here, more or less is Gilgamesh revisited. Well, I agree with your theory. I don't know if he'll go to the land of the death in book 5, but this is a theory i've been supporting for quite a while. At some point in the series he'll have to pass the border between death and life in order to achieve knowledge, maturity and some peace of mind. ANd I wouldn't be very much surprised if it's in book 5. I like your theory about the meaning of the OOP. It makes sense. And it would explain a lot of things. Cheers, IZaskun From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Sun Jun 8 00:38:56 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 17:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny's dress, Ron's Attitude (was: Saving Every Sickle) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030608003856.80191.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59527 --- serenadust wrote: > I was going to say that, of course, all of the > above is JMHO, but > actually the part about Americans reaction to > normal British verbal > style was observed by just about every other > American woman I knew > while living there. Most of us got used to it > and formed lovely > friendships, but it was jarring at first. I'd > love to hear some > input from some of our British listmembers. > Are any of you aware of > this particular "cultural difference"? Lynn: Actually, after living in the Netherlands for over 4 years, I find the British very polite. I really can't imagine a Brit walking up to me when I was 6 months pregnant and saying "Your so fat you must be having twins." LOL I almost said that I wasn't pregnant, just fat, but didn't want to be as rude - or so I thought. It really is just the normal way to express oneself in the Netherlands and there was no offense meant and the person would have felt badly if offense had been taken. However, I have found the same thing. There is a difference in the way different cultures express themselves. What's impolite or rude in one culture is totally acceptable in another. I was never bothered by Ron's comment that everything he owned was rubbish. There is a point, I believe, in GoF where Ron complains about Pig and Harry ignores it comparing what Ron said about Scabbers to how upset he was when he thought Scabbers was dead. I also think there was a general feeling of frustration being expressed rather than about specific things. And, at 14, IMO, it's a very natural frustration. Lynn (who really would like to know why Ron has such a thing for dungbombs when the fireworks sound so much better) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From prongs at marauders-map.net Sun Jun 8 01:48:03 2003 From: prongs at marauders-map.net (Silver Stag) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 21:48:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Much Ado About Money (concerning the Weasleys) References: Message-ID: <012601c32d60$00930010$0201a8c0@bettysue> No: HPFGUIDX 59528 Fred Waldrop > snip Everyone keeps saying Ron did not ask for help, but accually, Ron did > ask for help, in his own way. He might not have begged his mum to fix > his robe, but he did basicly ask for help. > (Page 156 & 157, GoF, US) > Mum, you've given me Ginny's new dress.... Of course I haven't, said > Mrs Weasley. That's for you. Dress robes. > What?, said Ron, looking horror struck. Dress robes! repeated Mrs > Weasley.... You've got to be kidding, said Ron in disbelief. I'm not > wearing that, no way. > Everyone wears them, Ron! said Mrs Weasley crossly. They're all like > that.... > I'll go starkers before I put that on, said Ron stubbornly. > Don't be silly, you've got to have dress robes, they're on your > list.... > I'm never wearing them, Ron said stubbornly. Never. > Fine, snapped Mrs. Weasley. Go naked.... Silver Stag: Sorry, Fred, but I don't see that as asking for help. That, to me, just looks like griping, however justified it might be. I feel in this case, as in the 2nd year wand case, that if Ron had come out and asked for help, he'd have gotten it. Instead, he just gripes and gripes. If you want things done, you can't just drop hints. You've got to learn to ask. JMHO Betty AKA Silver Stag. From meboriqua at aol.com Sun Jun 8 02:04:25 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 02:04:25 -0000 Subject: Much Ado About Money (concerning the Weasleys) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59529 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "taylorlynzie" wrote: >The Weasleys obviously don't have a lot of money (though this does make them wallowing in poverty) and he has grown up with this all of his life, Molly probably just wanted to use this to help him grow up a little as we all know without arguement that Ron is a *little* immature. This could be a way for her to held nudge him up the maturity ladder. If she constantly was fixing his robes everytime they needed to be fixed he would become spoiled and stay immature. Another valid point is that Molly was prehaps just not thinking about it. She is a very busy woman and fixing her sons "inadequate" dress robes may not be her number one priority.> I see both Ron's side and Molly's side so clearly, I can't quite take a side myself. Ron is justifiably embarrassed about receiving robes that are simply ugly, while watching Harry receive robes that are very nice. Molly *does* brush him off in a way that isn't too understanding. Are those really the only robes that she felt were appropriate for her 14 year old son? However busy Molly appears to be, she can certainly sit down with her son privately and discuss their situation. She can also offer to teach Ron how to fix the robes himself so he can deal with second-hand clothing in the future and so she doesn't have to add Ron to her list of worries. He could have used some guidance from Molly here. However, Ron is rude here. He complains about his mother's purchase in front of guests. If I had ever done that, my mom would have taken my robes away from me and then I really wouldn't have had anything to wear to the Yule Ball (then again, I'd go naked to the Yule Ball if it meant going to Hogwarts) Ron knows damned well that the Weasleys don't have the money to buy the kind of robes Harry receives. Don't you think Molly is tired of hearing about it? Her response makes me wonder if he has complained to her one time too often. She seems exasperated in an "I am sick and tired of hearing about this!" way. Molly doesn't offer to remedy the situation, but it is true, as many have pointed out, Ron doesn't ask for help either. He could have asked his mother to show him how to fix his robes, so he wouldn't have to keep complaining. Instead, he expects her to do what she cannot. There seems to be an issue of communication here. I really don't care if Molly is busy; she can make time to talk to her children. In fact, I am not sure how she can be so busy when she knows magic well enough to always do several things at once. Her children are all old enough to help more around the house as well, yet I see no evidence that any Weasley other than Molly does much to help, aside from setting the table and chasing gnomes out of the yard. Teach your kids some responsibility, woman! Ron, though, is focused more on his family's monetary status itself than why they are in that situation. People in the WW go out into the work force younger than we do - most people I know did not look for full-time employment at 18, straight out of high school. Ron can spend more time thinking about and planning his future if he hates his family's situation so much. See? I really see both sides here. Molly and Ron both handled things badly. --jenny from ravenclaw ***** From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Jun 7 21:22:45 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 21:22:45 -0000 Subject: Ginny's dress, Ron's Attitude (was: Saving Every Sickle) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59530 "Morgan D." wrote: > > Anyway, I don't remember any description of Ginny's dress in the Yule > Ball chapter, and a quick page-flipping through it failed to spot any > mentions to Ginny's presence besides her "wincing frequently as > Neville trod on their feet" as they danced (GoF, ch 23, p 365, UK > paperback). You guys seem certain that Molly bought her one too. Me(Finwitch): I don't think that Molly bought her one - but Neville might have. Ginny might have used her _allowance_ to buy a dress from Hogsmeade or save money by conjuring a temporary dress. Only thing about conjured dresses is that they don't last long. Or, turning a work- robe into a dress-robe... they're not THAT much apart, after all. Morgan D: > I remember being taken aback when I first read that passage in GoF. > Because I was already becoming very fond of Pigwidgeon and because > Sirius is my favourite character, but moreover because Ron was > calling "rubbish" a present from Sirius *in front of Sirius' godson! * > I've been wondering if this is a cultural thing, maybe this is not > such an appalling faux-pas in England, but I can't help thinking of > it as a horrible, horrible gesture. Not to me it's not - it's just a burst of emotion. And well, Ron's irritation is more to that dress-robe with laces than anything else - this time. Harry knows how Ron is - speaking 'ill' of pets and people he truly loves when he's irritated about something - constantly. He can be quiet when it's needed to avoid giving offence, when he's angry - "not in speaking terms" - or even just out of respect for the other's feelings (like when he stops talking about how much he liked the way that spider just died for Harry's sake). If Ron would have hold back his irritated emotion about enthusiastic 'Pig' (that seems to be much like Ron) in silence, Harry would have thought Ron was upset with _him_ rather than just irritated over an Owl... You know - if your friend suddenly starts behaving very formally, it means he's mad at you... -- Finwitch From tiger_queen429 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 7 21:59:49 2003 From: tiger_queen429 at yahoo.com (tiger_queen429) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 21:59:49 -0000 Subject: Cheating in the Third Task/ Harry's wand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59531 Hey! I have two questions... Does anyone think that it was possible for the champions to cheat in the Third Task of the TWT? Harry who came into the task first and had the least amount of obstacles to face should have reached the cup first without any trouble. Yet Moody/Crouch Jr. said "I stunned Fleur Delacour as she passed." I take this to mean as she passed Harry. Which I think would be nearly impossible as she was the last one to enter the maze unless she knew exactly which way to go. My theory is that it is not too hard to sneak on to the Quidditch field or the stadium to inspect or map out the maze. This is something I would expect from Madame Maxime or Karkaroff, but I wonder about Cedric. would he do the same? With more obstacles than Harry had to face that should have slowed him down considerably. Or is it just that Harry's bad sense of direction and the Four-Point Spell only slowed him down or sent him on a path that was very long? But that would also mean that Cerdic would have cheated. This would have been more that accepting Harry's advice about the dragon or Moody/CJ's help about the egg. I do not see Cedric as one to do that or maybe his instistence that Harry take the cup was his way of coming to terms with the guilt he had about cheating. How powerful is Harry's wand? We know that it is the brother of Voldemort's ward. And we know that Mr. Ollivander say this about the Dark Lord's wand: "Thirteen and a half inches. Yew. Powerful wand, very powerful, and in the wrong hands". Yet when Harry gets his wand the only thing Mr. Ollivander says about it is that it is "supple". Could Harry's wand be weaker that Voldemorts or is it just as powerful? I would think that because they share the same core that they should be equally as powerful, but Harry has not shown that sort of power yet unless his Patronus. Tiger queen From cmarsmith at yahoo.com Sat Jun 7 22:34:37 2003 From: cmarsmith at yahoo.com (cmarsmith) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 22:34:37 -0000 Subject: Apparating inside Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59532 Please forgive me if this has been covered before. Hermione mentions time and again that one cannot Apparate in Hogwarts. However we know that several creatures/people have done so (Dobby, Fawkes, possibly Dumbledore). It recently occurred to me that food is (apparently) apparated from the kitchen to other places within Hogwarts, primarly the Great Hall, but also other places such as Snape's office in CoS. Does anyone know if canon merely prohibits Apparating in to and out of Hogwarts but not from one place within the castle to another place within the castle? We are obviously ment to believe that this is not possible, but do we know that it's not the case? Thanks, Charlie From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 7 23:51:41 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 23:51:41 -0000 Subject: Much Ado About Money (concerning the Weasleys) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59533 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "serenadust" wrote: <<<...Ron seems to be using a well known tactic of putting his own things down, before someone else can do it, so it will look as if it doesn't hurt his feelings...>>> The Sergeant Majorette says: I'm with serenadust on this one. Ron is a middle child in the throes of adolescence, and he's English. Molly is the mother of way too many kids, and she's English. It might be interesting to sort out the "sides" on this issue by nationality. We Americans are notorious for inventing the concept of the "teenager": a creature miraculously endowed with the rights of an adult and the privileges of an adorable little child. I'm American myself, but from New York, so I don't have a lot of patience with the political correctness of the heartland. My own mother is of hard- headed Jamaican stock. She put food on the table and you could eat it or starve. (That's a quote). I'm sure she also told me more than a few times that I was welcome to go naked if I wasn't willing to wear what she provided. Also heard: "we're not made of money", "when you get out of here and get a job, you can waste your own money", "children in Europe are starving" (this was the fifties). Finally, to illustrate the culture gap, here are two views of Hogwarts: On the Scholastic 'Parent Guide' page: "The characters and their lives are quite similar to real-life...but at the same time, are one degree removed -- by the fantasized world of magic...Hogwarts - a school for wizards - is certainly unique..." --Adele Brodkin, Ph.D. >From The New York Times, Oct. 10, 1999: "...readers on this side of the Atlantic may not appreciate how much there is of realism, as well as magic, in the exotic tales of young sorcerers being trained at the Hogwarts School...What J.K. Rowlings has done...is to take the traditional rituals of English public schools and show them in a light in which they seem as curious to outsiders as the rites of passage of tribal Africa. She makes it easy to overlook the fact that the most visible character going through Harry Potter's training is Harry Windsor." -- 'The Playing Fields of Hogwarts', by Pico Iyer --JDR From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sun Jun 8 03:25:39 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 23:25:39 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Much Ado About Money (concerning the Weasleys) Message-ID: <114.247a355a.2c1406b3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59534 In a message dated 6/7/03 3:35:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, fredwaldrop at yahoo.com writes: > Also, I do not understand why people keep talking about "it's what's > on the inside, not the outside that counts". Are you all that old > that you do not remember how it was at 15? Humorously enough, I'm not that far away from 15 (17 now...). I know how it was -- at least, I know how I was. I'm a little weird (I get made fun of by frosh because of HP t-shirts), but I think I was normal with the feelings. At fifteen, HRH should be learning to be themselves. At least, that's the normal progression at my school as of late. They should know that's it's what's on the inside that counts the most. Hence the reason I spent half of a graduation party in an aluminum foil hat! : ) I'm not saying Molly was totally blameless. I just think it's a little unfair to assume that it was not Ron's fault at all. It's not a good situation to be in. Molly could get Harry better robes because she had his money to buy them with. I think the only way it could've been handled better was if Molly had given Ron his robes in private and told him why they're like that, and then Ron could have asked for help. I understand why it is hard for Ron to keep his temper like that. My parents and I can't even talk about colleges without one of us yelling. Ron just needs to learn to control his frustration about his financial state. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ --HRH could actually be a band.... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ivanova at idcnet.com Sun Jun 8 04:14:38 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 23:14:38 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione And Bulgaria References: <00af01c32d00$4356fc90$0201a8c0@bettysue> Message-ID: <002701c32d74$7ae2dc50$22ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 59535 > now Lorien_Eve: > Lurker here, coming briefly out of lurkdom. Yes, Krum *did* attack Cedric > (and Fleur, we assume), but he was under the Imperius Curse, cast by > Moody!Crouch, so I doubt this is an accurate portrayal of Krum's real > personality. > now Silver stag again: > You're probably right about that. Krum obviously knows how to use at least > one unforgivable, and since he's probably about to graduate, I wouldn't be > surprised if he knew them all. Minus being under the imperius curse, > though, I don't know that he'd normally use them. As a random curiosity, I > wonder about his home life. Did he learn those curses at school or > somewhere else. Krum was in his final year at Durmstrang Institute. This is the same school that actually teaches the Dark Arts to its students, not just how to defend against them, according to Draco. With this in mind, I would assume they were taught the Unforgivables as part of their curriculum, I would guess in the final one or two years of school. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From jmeec316 at aol.com Sun Jun 8 05:24:57 2003 From: jmeec316 at aol.com (Jaimee) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 05:24:57 -0000 Subject: Red and Green [was Re: Dumbledore's Gleam Revisited] In-Reply-To: <001001c32cba$d9c3e8a0$a87eadcf@jwells> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59536 Cindy W wrote: > A theory occurred to me about Dumbledore's gleam in GoF Chapter 36 that > I hadn't heard before, but then I am new to this group, so there's a lot > I've missed. > When I read the final chapters of GoF I was surprised by the result of > Harry and Voldemort's twin wands creating the strange reaction of Priori > Incantatem. I don't recall any previous information in the books about wands > with identical cores changing spells so drastically when used against each > other. It occurred to me that this concept of two halves used against each > other botching things might apply to other areas. > In CoS Chapter 18 Dumbledore makes it clear that in Voldemort's attack > on Harry, that he transferred some of his powers to Harry. And in GoF > Chapter 33 Voldemort explains that he used Harry's blood to resurrect > himself mainly so that he could have Harry's powers; particularly the > protective magic given to him by his mother. So we have this situation: > Harry has Voldemort's powers inside him, and Voldemort has Harry's powers > inside him. Is it possible that what applies to wands also applies to > wizards; that each of them having the powers of the other inside them might > make later attacks against Harry by Voldemort go awry? > > Just one of those wild thoughts that occurs late at night . . . > > Cindy W Jaimee rambles: There seem to be so many factors linking Harry and Voldemort: wand cores, hair color, unfortunate lack of loving guardians, a curse that failed...and now blood and protection from an ultimate sacrifce. But what about eye color? The colors red and green have been analyzed several times on this site, and I apologize ahead of times for mentioning them again....but I just can't get over how JKR uses the colors red and green to indicate "good" and "evil," respectively. We have red Gryffindor and green Slytherin. We have red sparks issued from Harry's, Dumbledore's, most good wizard's wands...but green from Voldemort's and Crouch!Moody for the Unforgivables. We even have the red phoenix and the green snake. But with eye color, everything's reversed. Voldemort has *red* eyes, and Harry has *green* eyes. I mean...it would have been a little on the freaky side for Harry to keep with trend of good=red and have the red eyes...but even so, the fact that their eyes are red (for the bad guy) and green (for the good guy) has always left me feeling unsettled. Any thoughts? Jaimee--who is still smiling, as she wonders if it is signifcant that the Quidditch World Cup teams are red (Bulgaria) and green (Ireland) as well. Does the fact that Crum played for the red team give us reason to suspect him be on the good side in future books?? From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jun 8 05:25:06 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 05:25:06 -0000 Subject: TMR the Missing Years /Viktor Krum/Cross-breeding wizards/Ginny's dress robe Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59537 Alex Cukier wrote: << Does anyone have any theories (not full funfiction, please!) about Voldemort 25 missing years (1945-1970)? >> I believe that Tom Marvolo Riddle got welcomed into the Malfoy home. Either one of the "useful friends" that Diary!Tom mentioned having met at Hogwarts was a young Malfoy who took him home over the holidays, or the adult Malfoy of that era, surely a Governor of Hogwarts, checked out that Slytherin boy who was honored for Special Services to the school and found him to have potentially useful talents. I think he spent quite a few years living at Malfoy Manor, studying Dark Arts (with an emphasis on immortality) from books in its library and doing experiments in a lab set up in its dungeons. Also (is this too much like fanfic?) being the godfather of and very bad influence on Lucius Malfoy. I think, only after that did he travel to distant places to study in other old libraries, and from time to time he returned to visit Malfoy Manor and be a bad influence on young Lucius. I think that the final spell that achieved his immortality was performed in a forest in Albania and that is why he was magnetically dragged back to that forest whenever he became disembodied (only a body is strong enough to resist that magnetic pull). I believe he had already turned himself into a red-eyed snake-man before that, as side-effects of his other spells. I believe that, confident of his immortality, he returned to Malfoy Manor in 1969 to start recruiting Death Eaters -- and (this is definitely fanfic) to encourage Lucius Malfoy to murder his father and/or grandfather -- whomever he had to murder to inherit the estate and be head of the family. I say, that was the first murder scene with the Dark Mark thrown over it. Brief Chronicles wrote: << So something will eventually happen to end the Krum relationship, and I suppose he could die. But it won't be very emotional for us.>> It would be for me! I'll cry! I was rejoiced each time the plot twists showed that Viktor was a nice guy despite going to Durmstrang and associating with Karkaroff, and was upset when he seemed evil after all (e.g. when Viktor Crucio'ed Cedric in the Maze), and when the story ended with Viktor being a good guy, I wept because that means JKR will kill him in the next book. The Seargeant-Majorette wrote: << It's concievable, for instance, that the Krums have a summer place on the Black Sea to which the entire 3-person Granger clan could be invited. >> We mostly seem to think that Hermione is an only child, and my own personal theory is that she has an older sister who is like 20 years older and out on her own, but suppose that Hermione has a Muggle sister a year or three older than her: the sister could come on the family trip to Bulgaria and Viktor could fall in love with her instead. ~Cassie~ wrote: << What I am wondering is...if a person is half wizard/half non human...are they considered fullbloods because they have magical blood? >> Me, I believe that they are. I like to think that Lucius and Narcissa got their blond good looks from being a quarter-Veela (and first cousins, making Draco rather inbred). << And can two non-humans produce human children? (the same way two muggles can produce a witch/wizard) >> That seems very unlikely. The witch/wizard child is just a Muggle plus an extra talent, but a human child of a non-human would be the non-human minus some stuff as well as plus some stuff. However, if you were thinking of crossing two different non-humans ... maybe Giant x House Elf would average out to human size, human level of helpfulness, human level of magic powere ... but not to human-style nose and ears unless Giants have remarkably small features to counterbalance the House Elf's large and strangely shaped ones. Felinia Beauclerc wrote: << Let's say their children, we'll give them three for right now, marry - the first boy marries a pureblood witch with a similar background to the Weasleys, the girl marries a Muggle, and the second boy marries another "spontaneous witch" like Hermione with similar strong, brilliant powers but Muggle parents. How do their children "count"? >> According to me, the three children would be considered Halfbloods by most wizarding folk, Purebloods by the *extremely* liberal. I don't know if the wizarding bigots have a whole vocabulary of mulatto, quadroon, octaroon, and so on, or if they'd just say Halfblood for the first boy's children. The bigots would call the girl's children Mudbloods despite one Pureblood grandparent (and sometimes they call Mudbloods "Muggles", as Draco to Hermione during the Death Eater riot at the QWC) and polite people would call them Halfbloods ("their mother is a witch and their father is a Muggle"). You are correct to raise the question of Muggle-born parents, because it complicates the racial classification. The child of a Muggle-born witch and a Muggle-born wizard would presumably have been brought up in the wizarding world, familiar with what Draco called "our ways" since birth, but the bigots would still call it a Mudblood. I don't think even polite people would call it Pureblood. Maybe Halfblood in a euphemistic sort of way, or something about wizard-born. I think there must be one word in wizarding talk for wizard-born, but if Draco had used that word instead of asking "But they were our kind, weren't they?" (in Madam Malkin's), Harry (and the reader) wouldn't have known what he was talking about. So Draco also didn't use the word Mudblood when he said: "I really don't think they should let the other sort in, do you?" Anyway, I figure the bigots would call the second boy's children Mudbloods and even Muggles just the same as the girl's children, and only the most liberal of polite people would call them Pureblood ("their parents are a witch and a wizard"). << In sum, I think that *probably* even the Malfoys might have a Muggle ancestor back there in the seventh or eighth generation back, if they looked closely enough. >> I'm sure you're right that even Purebloods have Muggle ancestors, who don't count against the Pureness of their Blood if enough generations back. In CoS, Ernie Macmillan said: "I might tell you that you can trace my family back through nine generations of witches and warlocks and my blood's as pure as anyone's, so -" which has not only added to the debate about "what is warlock?" but raised the suggestion that 9 generations is the definition of Pureblood. Finwitch wrote: << I don't think that Molly bought her [a dress robe] - but Neville might have. >> Surely Molly, who seems to be a rather old-fashioned mother, has taught her little girl that NO well-brought-up young woman accepts a gift of clothing from any man who is neither a close relative, fiance, or husband! I don't think that rule ought to apply to logo t-shirts, but it does apply to formal dresses and ball gowns. Ginny is the only girl and the youngest of the family. I think she's Molly's little princess and maybe Arthur's, too. I've always thought Molly might have bought her a dress robe back in August because a combination of realism and motherly fondness made her feel certain that Ginny was SO pretty that surely some fourth-year boy would ask her to the Ball. Also, that if Molly hadn't bought a dress robe for Ginny in August, she would have bought one later and owled it to Ginny when Ginny owled to tell her that she had an invitation to the Yule Ball but no dress robes. Or maybe not bought one, maybe it was her own dress robe from when she was younger and slimmer ... altho' even so I think it would have required alterations to fit a 13 year old... From contra75 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 7 16:04:46 2003 From: contra75 at yahoo.com (D.J.) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 16:04:46 -0000 Subject: Hermione And Bulgaria In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59538 Louis wrote: > I remember Hermione saying at one point in Goblet of Fire that > Viktor invited her to Bulgaria with him over summer break. > Personal opinions, now; do you think Hermione would have > taken Viktor up on his offer? If so, why and how long do > you think she'd have stayed? If not, why? Also, if anyone > could answer this; is there anything *touristy* down in Bulgaria? > I'm wondering where Viktor would take Hermione if she got into > a sightseeing mood. Hi Louis. Where would Viktor take Hermione if she visited him in Bulgaria? The age of consent in Bulgaria is 14. Enough said ;) D.J. From pipersfirebolt at aol.com Sun Jun 8 03:30:10 2003 From: pipersfirebolt at aol.com (pipersfirebolt at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 23:30:10 EDT Subject: NON-Spoiler Question... Message-ID: <164.216a2f2a.2c1407c2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59539 I have a question about OotP, but it's not a spoiler.... I'm ordering from a small bookstore that orders the books from Scholastic. Does Scholastic send the books early, so the stores keep them until the day it goes for sale? How early are the books sent? Or do the books arrive day-of or day-before? Thanks -Piper [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leperockon at aol.com Sun Jun 8 03:55:19 2003 From: leperockon at aol.com (taylorlynzie) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 03:55:19 -0000 Subject: Much Ado About Money (concerning the Weasleys) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59540 Fred wrote: > Do you really believe that by making Ron wear a robe that looks > like a girls dress will help him grow up? How on earth did you come > up with that idea? As for it being a lesson, I can not see any > lesson except that his mother does not care what her son looks > like. > And as for "dealing with what you have", wouldn't it make > more sense to show him how to fix something that isn't right instead > of just trying to use it like it is? That is what most people said > about broken his wand, if he had asked for help, he would have received > it, and his wand would have been in better shape. But instead of that, > you say he needs to fix things himself and never ask for help, or just > live with it like it is, no matter how bad it looks or works. > And them not having much money has nothing to do with the fact that > if SHE would have taken a couple minutes and taken the lace off, > the robe would have been much more exceptable. But, as you say, > apparently her son is not her number one priority, and that is a > sad thing to say about any mother. Good thing Lily did not have the > same attitude or this would have been a very different book. > Also, I do not remember reading anything about Fred or George > having to wear girls robes. Neither do I remember reading that Ginny > had to wear a boys robe to the dance. The only person that had to > dress "inadequate" was Ron. And it would NOT have cost ONE KNUT for > her to have removed the fringe and lace from Ron's robe, just a > couple of minutes of her time. >>>>>>>>>> I did NOT say that Ron was not her number one priority. I said the robes were not her number one priority. There is a big difference. I also never once in that post said that he needs to deal with things all on his own. I think that you misunderstood me because what I meant what that Mrs Weasley does not need to be catering towards Ron every waking minute of the day. That would have been an entirely different situation had Ron ASKED for help but he never did so how was Mrs Weasley supposed to know? You completely twisted everything I said around in ways I didn't mean. YOU are suggesting in your last post that Mrs Weasley is a bad mother because of ONE TIME that she didn't fix his robes. This isn't her deal, Ron DIDN'T ask for help. We also don't know if Fred and George or Ginny had to wear robes that weren't flattering but we DO know that there wasn't a big selection. How do YOU know that this was the only size left for Ron? How do you know? You don't, known of us do. Then you go comparing Lily to Mrs Weasleys. Your trying to compare Lily giving her life for Harry and Mrs Weasley not fixing her sons robes. This is not even a comparable subject. If Ron had been in the situation Harry had been Mrs Weasley would've given her life, without a doubt. Thats not even a question. "The only person that had to dress "inadequate" was Ron." (<- Fred) Again I ask you the question HOW DO YOU KNOW? True it never says anything about the twins or Ginnys robes in the books but just because it doesn't mention them doesn't mean that they aren't bad. They could be just as bad as Rons or maybe they are nicer. You don't know, I don't know. The only person who knows if JKR. I'm sorry if I misintereperted you but it seems to me that you think Mrs Weasley is a bad mother and doesn't love her son. I'm sorry but I do not think you can judge Mrs Weasleys love for Ron based on one incident. Which is entirely unfair. Tay. From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 07:08:12 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 07:08:12 +0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59541 Hey BC: Thanks for stepping up to the plate on this. [The brief standard disclaimer, that I *do* understand that this is a work of fiction - given that, I shall feel free to proceed and apply my ghod-given intellect to the writing. :-)] I find I can't just let this whole question "go". JKR, through her characters, makes such a big deal of this in the books: it is an *extraordinarily* big question at this time in the WW. Even if your family holds, like the Weasleys, that your ancestry doesn't matter; and even if places like Hogwarts admit on sheer talent, you're still going to run into people like the Malfoys to whom it *is* a big deal. I imagine that, at their manor somewhere, they have the equivalent of the "family Bible" with their lineage inscribed back for generation >In a message dated 6/4/2003 1:44:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, Felinia >writes: > > > Let's say that Hermione does marry Ron, eventually. Their children, the > > first generation, are not going to be considered purebloods by those who > > count and care, no matter how brilliant Hermione is. But that's >decidedly > > not Hermione's fault. She is what she is. > >This is the kind of thing that has been bothering me since I began reading >the series years ago. > >First of all, just like all races, there are few "purebloods" these days. >Travel and the Internet have made the world a different place than it was >thousands of years ago. We can meet people from other countries and other >backgrounds. I can have conversations with all of you, and I Iive in >Florida. > >So, of course, millions of people marry "outside" of their races or their >cultural backgrounds. It's difficult to find someone who can trace back >very far >without finding some varieties in his family tree. The same must be true in >the WW. > Indeed. Moreover, there must be some point, fixed or arbitrary, at which the WW or those within it who cared, began "counting". We don't know when that is - I don't suppose it really matters. But where *does* someone like Hermione, who has Muggle parents but is unquestionably a talented witch, fit in? The Malfoys may sneer, but what was she supposed to do with all that talent but train it? It's not the same as a situation like Seamus' mother, who married a Muggle knowingly and revealed her heritage once the marriage was accomplished (something I don't think much of, personally, but that's actually a minor point I need not pursue - it just is). I would think that it would only make sense that, if she married a "pure wizard" like Ron, and at least one of their kids married someone with a "pure wizarding background" and so on, for, say, four to six generations, maybe at that point they'd be considered pure wizard (even assuming that would be possible - and from what Hagrid says, it probably wouldn't be, even if the randomness of falling in love were not to enter into the picture). >It bothers me as well that Harry is considered a "halfblood." If Seamus is >"half-and-half" (ooh -- could *he* be the death of Book 5? okay, sorry -- >I'm >obsessing) No, you're not. :-) See my earlier remarks about what "obsession" truly is. because one of his parents is a Muggle and the other is a Witch, then >how can Harry be the same thing? Both Lily and James were magical parents. >Shouldn't Harry be more like a "three-quartersblood?" :) > >Brief Chronicles > That would be my view. Any way you look at it, it's kind of a paltry and mean measurement of talent and ability - and it doesn't sound like any but a minority within the WW really care. I think what bothers me is that the majority should then be able to mount a better affirmative defense against Draco and his ilk when they go off. (Question: are Crabbe and Goyle, fine specimens of young wizard manhood that they are *koff!Koff!* then purebloods, if they associate with young Malfoy? Could be examples of the inbreeding that's come about. ;-)) Felinia Beauclerc Pedant from Ravenclaw > _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From leperockon at aol.com Sun Jun 8 04:01:15 2003 From: leperockon at aol.com (taylorlynzie) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 04:01:15 -0000 Subject: Much Ado About Money (concerning the Weasleys) In-Reply-To: <133156091562.20030607103650@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59542 Suzanne wrote: > And I can't understand why so many people expect 14 year > olds to be all mature and perfectly understanding of any > situation, especially one that involves personal > embarrassment. > Why would it be so wrong for Molly to help her son out? > It's not as if Ron constantly asks for things. He knows they > can't afford much. > > And it must feel a little hurtful to see Molly's adoration for > Harry in contrast to her treatment of Ron, sometimes, though > Ron hasn't shown any resentment so far. > > I'm not sure I could handle it as well as Ron does at his > age. > Ron seems to be using a well known tactic of putting his own > things down, before someone else can do it, so it will look > as if it doesn't hurt his feelings (or am I the only one, > who has ever used it?). >>>>> I am not asking Ron to be perfectly mature, I know he is a 14 year old boy. I never said that. All I said was that Mrs Weasley can't be expected to fix everything in Ron's life if he doesn't ask. We all know that Ron is a bit bull headed and that he wouldn't ask for help. However how is Molly supposed to read his mind. To her the robes could not be as bad, or maybe she didn't think about it, considering everything between the Quidditch World Cup and the First day of school is kinda hectic. I am NOT saying that Ron isn't her number one priority I'm saying that unless Ron asks his robes aren't her number one priority. My other mother if I ask is most willing to help me in whatever the case may be, but unless I ask how is she supposed to know? Can she read minds? I never knew Molly was a seer. This doesn't mean she doesn't care or she doesn't love Ron it just means that she is the busy woman that she is. Take this as you want but I know what I mean and I'm sorry if this isn't coming out the way I intend. "Tay" From RhianynTheCat at aol.com Sun Jun 8 06:57:35 2003 From: RhianynTheCat at aol.com (RhianynTheCat at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 02:57:35 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny's dress, Ron's Attitude (was: Saving Every Sick... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59543 In a message dated 6/7/2003 7:52:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, finwitch at yahoo.com writes: > - or even just out of respect for the > other's feelings (like when he stops talking about how much he liked > the way that spider just died for Harry's sake). > Hmmm, I read that more as he sort of trailed off, coming to the realization that it really was rather horrible. Impressive, but horrible. Maybe I give him too much credit, but I read into it that Harry and Hermione really saw the spell for the horror that it is, but Ron got a bit carried away with the impression of it, until their demeanor sort of jolted him into looking at it from a different angle... "Rhianyn" From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Sun Jun 8 07:43:49 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 07:43:49 -0000 Subject: Cheating in the Third Task/ Harry's wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59544 Tiger queen wrote: > Hey! I have two questions... > > Does anyone think that it was possible for the champions to cheat in > the Third Task of the TWT? Harry who came into the task first and had > the least amount of obstacles to face should have reached the cup > first without any trouble. Yet Moody/Crouch Jr. said "I stunned Fleur > Delacour as she passed." I take this to mean as she passed Harry. No, it probably means as she passed Moody. Moody sees her passing along his part of the maze with his magic eye and uses the occasion to stun her and get her out of the competition. > How powerful is Harry's wand? We know that it is the brother of > Voldemort's ward. And we know that Mr. Ollivander say this about the > Dark Lord's wand: "Thirteen and a half inches. Yew. Powerful wand, > very powerful, and in the wrong hands". Yet when Harry gets his wand > the only thing Mr. Ollivander says about it is that it is "supple". > Could Harry's wand be weaker that Voldemorts or is it just as > powerful? I would think that because they share the same core that > they should be equally as powerful, but Harry has not shown that sort > of power yet unless his Patronus. > > Tiger queen Nothing in canon points towards wands having power of its own; indeed, they seem to be simple cathalitics of the wizards powers, that allow them to focus the spells better. It is clear, however, that some wands are better for some spells han others. I take the powerful comment on Voldemorts wand to mean it is particularly good for attack spells, particularly Dark Arts spells. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun Jun 8 12:34:26 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 08:34:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Apparating inside Hogwarts Message-ID: <179.1b68a1e4.2c148752@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59545 In a message dated 6/7/2003 10:54:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cmarsmith at yahoo.com writes: > Does anyone know if canon merely prohibits Apparating in to and out > of Hogwarts but not from one place within the castle to another place > within the castle? We are obviously ment to believe that this is not > possible, but do we know that it's not the case? I can't think of any case in canon in which we can PROVE that a human character Apparated within Hogwarts. My assumption has been that the ability of the house-elves to appear & disappear at will is tied to their own magic, which is apparently quite different in some respects from that of humans. It's also the house-elves who move the food around (though IIRC - & I haven't read the book in a while - the sandwiches in Snape's office aren't brought in, but conjured by Minerva). So far, we've only had little hints of the powers of house-elves - I suspect we're going to see a great deal more of them VERY soon. Sherrie All our tomorrows are built upon the foundation of all our yesterdays... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 12:35:57 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 12:35:57 +0000 Subject: The Dress Robes Affair Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59546 Fred and all: > >Accually, Ron did ask for help, in a way. He might not have begged >his mum to fix his robe, but he did basicly ask for help. >(Page 156 & 157, GoF, US) >Mum, you've given me Ginny's new dress.... Of course I haven't, said >Mrs Weasley. That's for you. Dress robes. >What?, said Ron, looking horror struck. Dress robes! repeated Mrs >Weasley.... You've got to be kidding, said Ron in disbelief. I'm not >wearing that, no way. >Everyone wears them, Ron! said Mrs Weasley crossly. They're all like >that.... >I'll go starkers before I put that on, said Ron stubbornly. >Don't be silly, you've got to have dress robes,they're on your >list.... >I'm never wearing them, Ron said stubbornly. Never. >Fine, snapped Mrs. Weasley. Go naked.... > >Instead of offering to help fix the robes, Ron's mum just tells him >to "go naked." If Ron could take the fringe and lace off in a couple >seconds while walking down the stairs to the ball, not knowing what >he was doing, why didn't his mum try to fix them herself, instead of >argueing about him having to wear them as is? >Even if she did not have much time, she could have given her son 5 >minutes to try and fix his robes properly. Unless she really did want >him to wear a robe with fringes and lace, or really go naked after >all. > Fred, maybe Molly was (quite rightly) fed up with Ron's constant melodrama and moaning about poverty; it is possible that, flawed wizard being that she is ;-), she overreacted at the wrong moment trying to teach him a lesson she had struggled with him with for some time. Parents are not perfect and all-wise; sometimes they do react to a *minor* outburst of a problem that's been major for some time. I know my parents did it more than once, and I've seen my friends' parents do it, and my own friends when they're parenting. Sometimes the same spot gets picked at so often that it's just raw and it provokes an outburst when it would have been better ignored or on a rare occasion helped the way the kid wanted it. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun Jun 8 13:08:02 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 09:08:02 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Dress Robes Affair Message-ID: <112.243f14f0.2c148f32@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59547 In a message dated 6/8/2003 8:36:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jestahijinx at hotmail.com writes: > Parents are not perfect and all-wise; sometimes they do react to a *minor* > outburst of a problem that's been major for some time. I know my parents > did it more than once, and I've seen my friends' parents do it, and my own > friends when they're parenting. Sometimes the same spot gets picked at so > often that it's just raw and it provokes an outburst when it would have been > > better ignored or on a rare occasion helped the way the kid wanted it. Felinia, I agree 100% with your assessment here. I'm from an almost-Weasley sized family that wasn't exactly wealthy - we didn't get to have all the things other kids had, whether it was the latest fad in clothing or a new car when we turned 16. What we DID have was a home that was always open to any of our friends, food on the table, clean clothes on our backs (so what if they weren't designer jeans?), & a family that (mostly) watched each other's backs. Did we whine sometimes? Well, yes - one of my sisters, especially. And my parents - especially my mom - reacted VERY much the way Molly does to Ron's complaints, whenever we DID. (Ron reminds me a LOT of this sister, BTW - that's NOT a good thing, in case you were wondering.) Would my parents try to fix things, if they were aware of the problems? Sure - but we had to TELL them there WAS a problem, & tell them that we NEEDED help. Not HINT at it, not whine about it - flat-out TELL them. Mostly, as we got older, we tried to find ways to fix things ourselves - which is what I assumed that G&F had done with THEIR dress robes. I also seem to recall someone mentioning that Mrs. Weasley should know that Ron doesn't like maroon - yet always makes him maroon jumpers. That's not at all unbelieveable to me. I LOATHE the color pink - ever since I was a child (even when I was a blonde). Yet every year at Yule, my mother would get me one or two items of pink clothing. Finally, when I was, oh, about 35 or so, she said to me, "You don't like pink, do you?" Took her a while - but she finally figured it out! To me, Molly behaves very much like a realistic mother of a very large family. And Ron just seems to be (IMHO - hang on while I put on my NASCAR firesuit!) someone who always wants others to do things for him, whether it's homework or fixing what's "broke", & whines when he doesn't get his way. Sherrie All our tomorrows are built upon the foundation of all our yesterdays... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 8 13:47:24 2003 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ivan=20Vablatsky?=) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 14:47:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Spiritual purpose of HP Message-ID: <20030608134724.96624.qmail@web21508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59548 In April I postulated my theory that the story of Harry Potter is a deeply spiritual, but symbolic, guide for human liberation. Several people responded to this, some privately. Some questions were raised. One person asked me about my views on the Bible because I seemed to be saying that both the Bible and Harry Potter were preaching liberation. I have now answered this question on HPFGU-OTChatter. Hans in Holland --------------------------------- Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jun 8 15:02:14 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 8 Jun 2003 15:02:14 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1055084534.29.52394.m7@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59549 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, June 8, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CDT (GMT-05:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. *Chat times are not changing for Daylight Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From kristen at sanderson-web.com Sun Jun 8 16:08:30 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (GKJPO) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 16:08:30 -0000 Subject: Connection between Voldemort and Fawkes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59550 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "btk6y" wrote: > Assuming these theories to be the most plausible and widely > held... how in the heck did Riddle/Voldemort choose a wand from > Fawkes? Or rather (as Ollivander might say), why did a wand > containing a feather from Fawkes choose Riddle? Especially if Fawkes > is inextricably tied to Gryffindor... it seems odd that the heir of > Slytherin would be destined for that wand. It's easy to see how > Harry would be destined for the brother wand for a variety of > reasons... if he is related to Godric, or from his connection with > Voldie from the curse that failed, etc... but Riddle/Voldemort was > the original one to choose the Fawkes wand. I think JKR loves the > idea of fate and I figure that she must have a reason why the heir > of Slytherin was destined for Fawkes' wand. Maybe Fawkes is not tied > to Gryffindor... I don't know. Any thoughts? > > Bobby Great point! The wand chooses the wizard, you know. Perhaps this wand also had some lessons on Divination and could see what was coming. Another possibility is when Dumbledore tells Harry the powers of the phoenix - that they are very loyal. Could it be that the feather in the wand core retained that loyalty to DD and chose Voldemort for the sheer purpose of providing a defense in the future? At the time Tom Riddle chose his wand, we don't know if he was evil yet though he implies that he had evil tendencies very early on when talking to Harry in the Chamber of Secrets. Empirically, he is Slytherin's heir, so maybe the wand picked up on that. Since OoP appears to be about the powers of the phoenix, I hope we find out very soon! I suspect this will be another barrier LV will get past once he realizes what caused the priori incantatem. Kristen From RhianynTheCat at aol.com Sun Jun 8 10:24:28 2003 From: RhianynTheCat at aol.com (RhianynTheCat at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 06:24:28 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny's dress, Ron's Attitude (was: Saving Every Sick... Message-ID: <37.39bc4ffa.2c1468dc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59551 > In a message dated 6/7/2003 7:05:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > meboriqua at a... writes: > > > Ron, though, is focused more on his family's monetary status itself > > than why they are in that situation.? RhianynTheCat meowed: Sorry if I'm bringing up a topic that's alread been discussed, but does anyone else feel that Ron's preoccupation with appearances, with money (and the difference between his financial situation and Harry's) is foreshadowing to him being tempted in some way to unwittingly betray Harry? > In a message dated 6/8/2003 12:04:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > leperockon at a... writes: > > > >And as for "dealing with what you have", wouldn't it make > > >more sense to show him how to fix something that isn't right instead > > >of just trying to use it like it is? Then spake RhianynTheCat: P'raps Molly thought the robe looked fine.? P'raps it's what was fashionable in her time at Hogwarts.? I know my own mum was hopelessly caught in her own generation as far as fashion was concerned.? She'd've had me going to the prom in a beehive hairdo and yards of tulled with crinolines underneath.? And when Ron flared rudely at her, she flared right back ... they're all redheads, ya know :D [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Jun 8 12:21:29 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 12:21:29 -0000 Subject: Red and Green [was Re: Dumbledore's Gleam Revisited] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59552 > > Jaimee rambled: > > There seem to be so many factors linking Harry and Voldemort: wand > cores, hair color, unfortunate lack of loving guardians, a curse that > failed...and now blood and protection from an ultimate sacrifce. > > But what about eye color? > > The colors red and green have been analyzed several times on this > site, and I apologize ahead of times for mentioning them again....but > I just can't get over how JKR uses the colors red and green to > indicate "good" and "evil," respectively. > > We have red Gryffindor and green Slytherin. We have red sparks issued > from Harry's, Dumbledore's, most good wizard's wands...but green from > Voldemort's and Crouch!Moody for the Unforgivables. We even have the > red phoenix and the green snake. > > But with eye color, everything's reversed. Voldemort has *red* eyes, > and Harry has *green* eyes. I mean...it would have been a little on > the freaky side for Harry to keep with trend of good=red and have the > red eyes...but even so, the fact that their eyes are red (for the bad > guy) and green (for the good guy) has always left me feeling > unsettled. > > Any thoughts? > > Jaimee--who is still smiling, as she wonders if it is signifcant that > the Quidditch World Cup teams are red (Bulgaria) and green (Ireland) > as well. Does the fact that Crum played for the red team give us > reason to suspect him be on the good side in future books?? Well, the colours can have different meanings. Green: life, poison... And Slytherin.. The green in the Slytherin Crest may represent grass, in which I'd except to find a snake hiding. That Avada Kedavra comes out as green light - it takes a life. Also, Harry's green eyes represent his being a survivor. Nature, envy... Red: blood, heart, love, hate, anger, fire, warmth, iron, war... I wouldn't see it as evil/good, but if they are, it could be that the eyes reflect that other away, witholding the opposite within. --- Finwitch From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sun Jun 8 14:09:27 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 14:09:27 -0000 Subject: Ron's Robes and Ginny's Dress Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59553 There have been a lot of comments on Ron's robes from different perspectives, so I'll throw in my 2 knutes. As a hand-me-down wearer in my youth, I wonder if Molly was even aware of how horrible they were. I got clothes from my cousin that were a decade out of date, but all mom saw was sturdy, good quality clothes that fit. (Imagine a female Dudley in a miniskirt during the maxiskirt fad.) Given that she had a lot of shopping to do in a short time, she may have gone over to the rack of Ron-sized clothes and saw maroon and thought "Perfect! Ron looks so handsome in maroon." and went on to the Fred and George-sized racks. Later, Ron pitches a fit (in front of Harry, as others have pointed out) and she is put on the defensive. As my mother would say, "Well, (long pause for dramatic effect) TOUGH!" On to Ginny. I doubt Molly would have gotten dress robes for her as they were not certain to be used. I figure it is more likely that she borrowed them. Perhaphs one of her roommates is from a higher class family and would have had occasion to wear them to a function outside of school and is wealthy enough to own a couple of them. Or the roommate has an older sister who has outgrown dress robes that are Ginny's size. Generally, I'm a C.R.A.B. person myself, but he is a fourth year. He should know some simple alterations charms, or know someone (Hermione) that could look one up for him. Ginger, who is happy to be back after a bad case of Yahoomortitis, and who thinks that George-sized Racks would be a peculiar name for a band. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Jun 8 17:13:04 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 17:13:04 -0000 Subject: Cheating in the Third Task/ Harry's wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59554 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tiger_queen429" wrote: > Hey! I have two questions... > > ... possible for the champions to cheat in the Third Task ...? Harry > ... came ... first and had ... least ... obstacles ... should have > reached the cup first .... > Yet Moody/Crouch Jr. said "I stunned Fleur Delacour as she passed." > I take this to mean as she passed Harry. bboy_mn: Grey Wolf already convered this, Fleur was stunned when she passed Moody. > ...edited.... My theory is that it is not too hard to sneak on to > the Quidditch field or the stadium to inspect or map out the maze. > ..., but I wonder about Cedric. Would he do the same? bboy_mn: NO! Cedric is represented as a decent, noble, and honorable man. He might take some unofficial assistance, but he would never out and out cheat. That's my story and I'm sticking to it, > With more obstacles than Harry had to face that should have slowed > him (Cedric) down considerably. bboy_mn: Keep in mind that Cedric had three years more magical training than Harry, and all indications are that he was also an excellent student. Harry knew he was no match for the other students and he was right. He made it through the tornement with help. Fake!Moody assisted Harry in the first task by manipulating Hagrid into showing Harry the dragons. In the second task, Moody assisted Cedric knowing that the noble Cedric would repay the favor to Harry. Moaning Myrtle pointed Harry to the merepeople's village. In the third task, Harry and Cedric helped each other when the opportunities arose. They also followed different paths through the maze, so we don't know what obsticals Cedric encountered. Harry spend a significant amount of time with the Sphinx trying to solve the riddle. It is conceivable that Cedric met a more dangerous creature, but one he was able to deal with faster. Conclusion, I see no reason why Cedric couldn't have won the tornement on his own. He was better trained, an excellent student, and a talented wizard. > > How powerful is Harry's wand? ....edited... Could Harry's wand be > weaker that Voldemorts or is it just as powerful? bboy_mn: On a side note, let's remember (at least according to my theory) that when a wand choses a wizard, it is not a moral or ethical choice. It's simply a matter of compatability. I like to illustrate it by referring to it as a shared harmonic resonance between the wizard and the combination of unique wand components. Having said that, I believe that wands do have characteristics, and that the wand components also have unique characteristics. Holly is a protective wood associated with life. Yew is a wood associated with death. Oak (Hagrid's wand) is the royal wood and is associated with strength. Unicorn hair, again in my opinion, is a subtle and refined core that is best for magic that must be precisely applied which makes it good for charms. Dragon heart, in a sense has more strength but is less refined, and would be good for magic that requires a burst of power like strong curses and tranfiguration. Phoenix feather is both refined and strong, I consider it the royal core. I also believe that phoenix feather matches very few wizards and witches. Even if my interpretation is wrong, it still serves as an illustration to make my point, which is, while wand components have characteristics, and while, in a limited way, the wand chooses the wizard, it is the wizard that makes the wand. It is the preciseness of the match and the wizards own power that determine how powerful and effective a wand is. In Voldemort's wand, Yew, a symbol of death, combined with a phoenix feather that is both refined and strong would certainly make a power combination, but it is still no more powerful than the wizard who is using it. > ... Harry has not shown that sort of power yet unless his Patronus. > > Tiger queen bboy_mn: Voldemort is approx 70 years old; Harry is 14. Voldemort has spent decades studying his craft intensely and refining his power. Certainly, he appears to be more powerful than Harry. And while Harry doesn't have the training or experience to back up his magic, he has certainly shown hints along the way, like his powerful patronus charm, that he has immense magic potential. And remember, it is our choices more than our abilities that show who and what we really are. Just a thought. bboy_mn From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 17:33:18 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 17:33:18 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: The mirror of Erised Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59555 You know: > > Dim the lights. > > > > Cue the spooky organ music. > > > > Self-fulfilling prophecy... > > > > Harry being with is parents.... > > > > Who says Harry's desire can't come true? > > > > Ron can certainly achieve his desires in his life. > > > > But Harry can also achieve his desire. True his parent can't come back > > and join him, but he can go join them. (Sudden loud rushing chord of > > organ music that slowly fades) > > > > What if, in the end, we see the Potter ghost family reunited again in > > death. (Sudden loud rushing chord of organ music that slowly fades) > > > >me, digger: [Newbie 1st post, Hi all] > >My prediction for OOP is similar. (it might have been aired here before, >apols in advance if so) > >Harry does go to see his parents in the land of the dead, but he does it >while he is still alive. A portal to the land of the dead is in that >mysterious room we know he has not yet found. (I think that room is >something like the mirror of erised, it shows you what you desire, like >Dumbledore's chamber pots) > >The Order of the Phoenix is an honour awarded to those individuals who >manage to travel to the land of the dead while alive, and sucessfully >return to the land of the living. So Harry will be able to visit his >parents, but because they are dead, he won't be able to bring them back >through the door. > This is a fascinating theory - I'd never even thought of this possibility before - but it *is* one possible interpretation of the word "Phoenix" in this context. I can't think of any particularly solid reasons why or why not on either side; it might be the way JKR decides to write it. There are certainly other myths, legends, tales and epic fantasies that have this sort of occurrence in them - I have noted on this list before that, while a fresh and clever writer, JKR is not a particularly *original* writer. Some of the theories that get run on the lists occasionally seem very wild and a "reach" to me, with no insult intended to the cleverness of the originators nor their ability to support their theories with quotes from canon - but I keep looking back at Rowling and going, "No, that strays too far from her usual complexity level". She's able to bring in a lot of popular culture and word play very cleverly, and that is what I admire most about her; but she's not *that* original of a plotter. The one *real* surprise she gave me was Barty Crouch Jr. as Moody - and that was a blow to me, because I liked the real wisdom and ability Moody had displayed over the school year (and I keep coming back to 'was all that character *really* in Barty Crouch Jr. all along - if so, it wasn't very evident in the glimpses we got of his young self at his trial - or is polyjuice potion a whole lot stronger than we realize? ;-) - the last is rhetorical, by the way). But think about it: every year, there's a new DADA teacher so far; every year, that's been where a bunch of the conflict or change or even bungled solutions have occurred. Most of the other characters thus far are really *caricatures* in some way - plot devices. I refuse to get drawn into too deep of an analysis of the Dursleys because I don't believe they're hiding any major secrets - they're caricatures, drawn that horrible and bad to be something that Harry is happy to get away from. The professors never really change from year to year; they don't even reveal much that's new or interesting about themselves. The major growth and change is with the central three, most particularly Harry himself, internally. Because that's what this story is all about, in many different levels, and that's the part that needs the attention and detail and depth and word count. And (yes, watch me bring it back to the subject line at last) harry's perennial challenges *have* been getting more serious and deadly each year. She's going to have some doing to cap the last one. Something like travelling to the land of the dead and returning when eveyrone thought he was a goner (what if it's *Harry's* faux death JKR was having trouble writing???) might be a challenge to cap the ending of the last book. And I could see awarding "the Order of the Phoenix" in that case. I feel compelled to advance another theory, however - mine isn't very solid largely because there aren't that many things I get worked up into breaking down in the whole series at this point (the "who's a pureblood, who's not" argument obviously not being one of those ;-)) - is that my initial thought when I read about the Order of the Phoenix is that the Order of the Phoenix is like the old legendary one that was supposed to exist in late Roman times (I have friends who argue back and forth about whether they've "proved" its existence or not and it's not something I follow closely enough to examine the evidence, but there is a belief in its existence, which can be enough in some cases) - whose main and sole purpose was the preservation of the Empire. It had membership only at the highest levels and the early vestiges of that unit of organization of the "cell" where only one or two other people knew of your membership and existence, and you in turn only knew of two or three others, so as to reduce the possible damage if one member were caught or discovered and tortured to reveal knowledge. They allegedly did their work with codes and secret messenger services and occasionally authorized assassinations, etc. it can't be something identical, obviously, since membership has been publicly noted; but what if it's something that appears on the surface to be some sort of honorarium for scholars, kind of a "fuddy-duddy" circle on the outside - but its inner purpose is actually what I said? What if Harry is gradually brought into knowledge of and membership in this circle because of who and what he is? Perhaps his place there is hereditary? Perhaps it's "earned" once he's old enough because they just can't figure out why he was able to stand off Voldemort, and they feel they need his help once he can handle the truth. *shrug* >I bet that Dumbledore, as a most powerful wizard, can do this. >Conversly, Voldemort, by being in fear of death, and seeking >immortality, has never attempted it. If Harry can do this, he will gain >power and knowledge that V will never have, and this will aid him in the >fight against Voldemort. > >digger > And to return to your theory, that would fit in well with what's happened so far. As I said, I can see no particular canonical reason either for or against it = which means it's as likely as anything I've seen out there so far. :-) Felinia Beauclerc _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From siskiou at earthlink.net Sun Jun 8 17:43:40 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 10:43:40 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Much Ado About Money (concerning the Weasleys) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16565550127.20030608104340@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 59556 Hi, Saturday, June 07, 2003, 8:55:19 PM, taylorlynzie wrote: > I think that you misunderstood me because what I > meant what that Mrs Weasley does not need to be catering towards Ron > every waking minute of the day. Eh? I didn't see anyone say she should cater to Ron's every wish. Honestly, he doesn't get much attention and doesn't ask for all that much, either. Maybe he perceives his mom as so busy, that he usually tries to cope himself, thinking she wouldn't have time to help... > That would have been an entirely > different situation had Ron ASKED for help but he never did so how > was Mrs Weasley supposed to know? But honestly, how could she not know? As somebody else said, both Ron *and* his mom could have handled things better. It wasn't *all Molly's fault*, but neither was Ron the sole responsible one (imo). It seems, Molly should involve all her kids a bit more in housework. It couldn't hurt to have them make their own sandwiches for the train ride to Hogwarts... -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 17:48:38 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 17:48:38 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione And Bulgaria Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59557 >I'm Louis Badalament, first-time poster, hello. Onto my question; I >remember Hermione saying at one point in Goblet of Fire that Viktor >invited her to Bulgaria with him over summer break. Personal >opinions, now; do you think Hermione would have taken Viktor up on >his offer? If so, why and how long do you think she'd have stayed? >If not, why? Also, if anyone could answer this; is there anything >*touristy* down in Bulgaria? I'm wondering where Viktor would take >Hermione if she got into a sightseeing mood. > Hi Louis: Absolutely, I think she'd go. For how long I suspect would depend on her parents. I imagine that Krum's invitation would include them as well. I don't know - maybe six weeks out of the summer, so that it didn't interfere with their other plans? Maybe as little as two so they wouldn't feel as if they were imposing? "Touristy" stuff to do? Remember how intellectual Hermione is: there's always stuff of historical interest to be seen. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 17:50:46 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 17:50:46 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione And Bulgaria Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59558 > >I think she might have took him up initially but I also think that Viktor >broke up with her before they boarded the train back to King's Cross. > Curious: why do you think that? [Because that's not the way JKR writes. :-)] Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 17:54:05 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 17:54:05 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is History Repeating Itself Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59559 >Please forgive me if this question has been asked before, this it >my first time joining a disscussion group. Do you have the >feeling that history is recreating it's self? For example I see Percy >taking the place of Mr. Crouch and perhaps betraying his rule >breaking brothers. I see the original group (Potter, Lupin,Black& >Pettigrew) reemerging as (Potter, Granger, Weesley & >Longbottom). O.K. maybe I'm crazy, but bear with me...One >more... Granger & R. Weesley or Potter & G. Weesley emerging >as the new James and Lily? > It's very "Star Wars-esque", but yes, that is what I see happening. I don't know that each role will be exactly parallelled, but generally, I see the second "war against Voldemort" taking the same general shape as the first. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 17:58:10 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 17:58:10 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magical ceremonies (was: Tomboy Lily/Dursleys) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59560 >Finwitch said: > > I do think that Harry had a *wizard* naming ceremony. One > > that includes some sort of magical blessing. > > > > > I do hope we have description of that ceremony and that of a > > wedding... > > Say, Sirius tells Harry about them - or Harry attends one i.e. > > Percy's wedding with Penelope Clearwater in OOP, and in book 7 their > > child's naming ceremony as an observer? > >As much as I love the idea of exotic magical rituals for the Potters' >wedding and Harry's naming, and as much as I want to see them described >in future books, I doubt it'll happen. > >JKR has already been facing some fierce religious persecution because >of the use of magic in the books. Now, describing the protagonist's >parents' wedding as a magical ritual would in all likelihood bring a >violent of wave of protests from people claiming such union in unholy, >sinful, unacceptable. Moreover, a magical naming ceremony would bring >accusations that Sirius, in Harry's name, pledged allegiance to a pagan >deity (or the devil), since it wasn't made under the shelter of the >Holy Church. (In that perspective, an Anglican priest being a wizard >would be equally unacceptable.) > >So unless a magical wedding/naming ceremony is relevant to the plot, >I'm betting JKR will keep her head down and avoid unnecessary polemic, >throwing vague words like "wedding", "best man" and "godfather" around >and letting the readers pick whatever float their boats: strange rites, >christian services, whatever. She strikes me as a person who picks her >fights wisely. > >Just my humble opinion, > >Morgan D. >Hogwarts Letters - http://www.hogwartsletters.hpg.com.br > Morgan: I *completely* agree with you. As you said, reason majorus: she's had enough flak and picks her fights wisely. The books really are *not* about promoting the use of magic and magic rituals specifically. Reason minorus: they're already long enough! She's evidently having enough trouble holding down the verbiage that it takes to drive the plot without adding these glimpses of wizard culture - fascinating as they might be to the fans as an aside. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 18:09:38 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 18:09:38 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Molly and the Day Job (Was Ron, Molly and Those Robes) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59561 Becky: >Now then. On to a completely different point. I'm highly suspicious >of our dear mother!Molly. I think there must be something she does, >other than blunder around an empty house hold. Now, I haven't re- >read GoF yet, so there might be canon in there that I have mentally >blocked. But really, any witch with a solid Hogwarts education >doesn't seem like she would be content at home doing basic things... >Can you imagine Hermione sitting idly at home? I can't even see >Lavender keeping a wizard house and not doing other things. We know >Dumbledore trusts her. He's likely to give her something to do from >now on. What I want to know is what she's been doing for the last >three years!! Any thoughts? Canon to make me look dumb? > >Becky, who is slightly perturbed. > Canon: Molly Weasley is not important as a plot driver during the school year, and is almost a caricature of a loving, nurturing figure, the opposite of Aunt Petunia (who evidently doesn't have an outside the home job either, yet almost no one comments on that! ;-)), and so what she does with her time when she's not "mom" is not really relevant to the ultimate story. :-) Sorry to be so flattening. I know you are seriously perturbed - and, indeed, looking at any of these people as role models, I'm not sure they're ideal. I've often commented that JKR writes of a much more idealized time and that her world is somewhat old-fashioned - I've wondered if it doesn't slightly reflect her longing,w hen she was first starting to write, for less of a struggle as a single mom and more of a traditional family structure for her daughter. Be that as it may, I don't think she was really thinking of holding Molly Weasley up as a "model for future women"; she's just a character and serves a textual function. My take? I imagine it takes all of Molly's time and wizarding skills to actually run The Burrow and the "farm" and "garden" attached to it. Also, the skills she has shown so far to us, the reader, many witches would have - so I don't know that she could sell her skills nor any product thereof to the wizarding community (maybe she takes eggs to town once or twice a week - I don't know). It does not seem, from canon,t hat the Weasleys ever voluntarily interact with the Muggle world at all - they know so little about it - so I can't even see that being an outlet. Being a domestic engineer - scrounging for bargains, bartering, trading, even commanding and supervising each chore, like "start the next sweater!" - really *does* take an amazing amount of time and energy if you do it full out. I can well imagine Molly going about wizarding Britain finding bargains on various foodstuffs and bartering some of her knitted sweaters and such for things like shoes, and I can see aggressively managing her family's and home's material concerns taking up the lion's share of her time. Plus, the Burrow is *enormous* and she has no domestic help when the kids aren't home - while "lived in" and cluttered, it does not come across as filthy, and I can see that cleaning it top to bottom at least once a week would, again, take some waking hours. No - I think Molly's got her hands full, even when the kids aren't home. I can see her magically preserving and putting up those apples she's gotten as a deal into apple butter and applesauce and spiced apples and stockpiling her larder for when the children *are* home because I'll bet they deplete those stores faster than she can restock them in the summers. Felinia who's been a domestic engineer for a large household of people, and was grateful not to have a day job during the week for that time _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Sun Jun 8 18:15:33 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 18:15:33 -0000 Subject: The Dress Robes Affair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59562 Fred Waldrop Wrote: Accually, Ron did ask for help, in a way. He might not have begged his mum to fix his robe, but he did basicly ask for help. wrote: Fred, maybe Molly was (quite rightly) fed up with Ron's constant melodrama and moaning about poverty; it is possible that, flawed wizard being that she is ;-), she overreacted at the wrong moment trying to teach him a lesson she had struggled with him with for some time. Parents are not perfect and all-wise; sometimes they do react to a *minor* outburst of a problem that's been major for some time. I know my parents did it more than once, and I've seen my friends' parents do it, and my own friends when they're parenting. Sometimes the same spot gets picked at so often that it's just raw and it provokes an outburst when it would have been better ignored or on a rare occasion helped the way the kid wanted it. Felinia Hello all, Fred Waldrop here: Felinia, If you would please answer me a couple of questions, I would really appreciate it. Why do you say "maybe Molly was (quite rightly) fed up with Ron's constant melodrama and moaning about poverty"? I have read all 4 books 4 times now, and I really can not remember Ron's "melodrama and moaning about poverty" more that 2 or 3 times. If that is all he complained about being poor, how do you get it as being constant? Sure, he does complain about a few other things, but he is NOT constantly complaining about anything. And please answer me one other thing, when Ron complained about his robe, Mrs Weasley tried to explain that it was second hand, and then she got embarressed and left the room. Why didn't she show Ron the robe in private so NEITHER would get embarressed? Or an even more resonable question would be be, why didn't she remove the lace before she gave the robe to Ron in the first place? I know that children can be annoying and everything, but sometimes, being the adult, the parents have to just deal with it. Fred Waldrop From yellows at aol.com Sun Jun 8 18:34:43 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 14:34:43 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Red and Green [was Re: Dumbledore's Gleam Revisited] Message-ID: <14c.201fa8c9.2c14dbc3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59563 In a message dated 6/8/2003 1:25:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, Jaimee writes: > Jaimee--who is still smiling, as she wonders if it is signifcant that > the Quidditch World Cup teams are red (Bulgaria) and green (Ireland) > as well. Does the fact that Crum played for the red team give us > reason to suspect him be on the good side in future books?? I think this is a great observation. Especially since Krum went to a school that teaches *use* of the Dark Arts, rather than just *defense* against them. I keep equating Krum in my mind with Rolf, the boy from the Rodgers and Hammerstein musical "Sound of Music." :) In that story (******SPOILER******, if you haven't seen the play or the film or heard the story), one of the Von Trapp girls fell in love with Rolf (they sang "You Are Sixteen, Going On Seventeen" together), and, when the Von Trapps had to flee from the Nazis later on, Rolf turned out to be a Nazi himself. I wonder if there will be a similar difficult issue for Hermione and Krum later on. Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 18:36:06 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 18:36:06 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Dress Robes Affair Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59564 >Fred, maybe Molly was (quite rightly) fed up with Ron's constant >melodrama and moaning about poverty; it is possible that, flawed >wizard being that she is ;-), she overreacted at the wrong moment >trying to teach him a lesson she had struggled with him with for some >time. Parents are not perfect and all-wise; sometimes they do react >to a *minor* outburst of a problem that's been major for some time. >I know my parents did it more than once, and I've seen my friends' >parents do it, and my own friends when they're parenting. Sometimes >the same spot gets picked at so often that it's just raw and it >provokes an outburst when it would have been better ignored or on a >rare occasion helped the way the kid wanted it. > >Felinia > > >Hello all, Fred Waldrop here: > >Felinia, If you would please answer me a couple of questions, I would >really appreciate it. >Why do you say "maybe Molly was (quite rightly) fed up with Ron's >constant melodrama and moaning about poverty"? I have read all >4 books 4 times now, and I really can not remember Ron's "melodrama >and moaning about poverty" more that 2 or 3 times. If that is all he >complained about being poor, how do you get it as being constant? >Sure, he does complain about a few other things, but he is NOT >constantly complaining about anything. Fred: I'm using this little scene to postulate (not prove, just postulate) that Ron probably does a fair amount of complaining about his lack of money *offstage*. The way it's written, it has the quite authentic ring of an oft-repeated type of exchange. I highly doubt it's the first time such a thing has come up. He does make comments throughout the series - his mention of "why is everything I own rubbish?" when unsticking Pigwidgeon's beak - and we are also given visual cues, like his too-short pajamas which he has obviously outgrown faster than Molly can replace them with the correct size (or, perhaps not being used to asking for help, he simply hasn't mentioned the growth spurt, thinking it's unimportant or that Molly "just wouldn't care anyway"). >And please answer me one other thing, when Ron complained about his >robe, Mrs Weasley tried to explain that it was second hand, and then >she got embarressed and left the room. Why didn't she show Ron the >robe in private so NEITHER would get embarressed? Or an even more >resonable question would be be, why didn't she remove the lace before >she gave the robe to Ron in the first place? >I know that children can be annoying and everything, but sometimes, >being the adult, the parents have to just deal with it. > >Fred Waldrop > I have no idea why she did that, Fred - my guess is that it's because JKR wrote it that way to drive the plot. Remember, we only know what she chooses to show us. I doubt , really, that she would write a Molly Weasley whose first aim in life is to embarrass her kids. And I know that sometimes parents have to deal with kids being annoying, but sometimes adults are imperfect, too - and my point, and I thinkt he metapoint of this whole discussion, is that the kids just have to deal with *that*. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From yellows at aol.com Sun Jun 8 18:37:52 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 14:37:52 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] NON-Spoiler Question... Message-ID: <12d.2b4c383d.2c14dc80@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59565 In a message dated 6/8/2003 2:57:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, pipersfirebolt at aol.com writes: > I'm ordering from a small bookstore that orders the books from > Scholastic. Does Scholastic send the books early, so the stores keep them > until the > day it goes for sale? How early are the books sent? Or do the books arrive > > day-of or day-before? I don't know the exact answer to your question, but I do know that most stores have them before the release date (the van doesn't arrive just at midnight the night of the event with the books). And that means that if you work at a bookstore, you will have access to OoP sometime before June 21. At least, that's how it works at Borders. Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yellows at aol.com Sun Jun 8 18:45:41 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 14:45:41 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Purebloods" and inbreeding Message-ID: <6b.12b86a44.2c14de55@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59566 In a message dated 6/8/2003 3:08:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, Felinia writes: > (Question: are Crabbe and Goyle, fine specimens of young wizard manhood > that they are *koff!Koff!* then purebloods, if they associate with young > Malfoy? Could be examples of the inbreeding that's come about. ;-)) Well, they must be "purebloods," since at the end of GoF it seems that people from their families are represented among the Death Eaters. I like this issue of inbreeding. :) Could Crabbe and Goyle be examples of what happens when the very few "purebloods" left in the WW marry each other and have children? Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yellows at aol.com Sun Jun 8 18:50:21 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 14:50:21 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Connection between Voldemort and Fawkes? Message-ID: <1da.b4755ce.2c14df6d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59567 In a message dated 6/8/2003 12:09:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, Kristen writes: > Great point! The wand chooses the wizard, you know. Perhaps this > wand also had some lessons on Divination and could see what was > coming. Another possibility is when Dumbledore tells Harry the > powers of the phoenix - that they are very loyal. Could it be that > the feather in the wand core retained that loyalty to DD and chose > Voldemort for the sheer purpose of providing a defense in the > future? OR -- what if the wand chose Voldemort because he will be loyal to his own cause? What if it means that Voldemort is completely evil and Harry is completely good and they are both 100% loyal to their own sides of the same coin? Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 18:58:52 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 18:58:52 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Purpose of the Weasleys (was; Saving every Sickle) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59568 > >--- Jesta wrote: > > My one thought is that their financial > > priorities do seem to be a little > > skewed - the vacation to Egypt hit me wrong, as > > it did many others, when > > there were problems buying robes and paying > > tuition. But it might be that > > the Weasley parents saw it as important to have > > everyone together and see > > Bill - moreover, and we mustn't forget this as > > the overarching concern, it > > was a plot device plain and simple for Sirius > > to see a photograph showing > > Pettigrew. > >Lynn: > >It's funny, I didn't think it strange that the >Weasleys would take the kids to Egypt. I grew up >in much the same circumstance, food on the table, >second-hand everything. The big difference is we >didn't have pocket money, we had to save any >money we received from Christmas, birthdays or >the paper route if we wanted any pocket money. >Yes, I remember those times I wished I had >something new but, what I remember most was the >trips we used to take, going to camp in the >summer, etc. It is hard when a child goes >through it but I think in the long run, the most >vivid memories will be the family times together >and the bonding that could take place during >those times. > YOu know, enough members of big families have said this to me that I can well believe that it is true. :-) But as you yourself note later on, it is somewhat unevenly applied. I'll get to that in a minute. I grew up lower middle class, much the youngest child (a big gap between me and even my nearest cousins age wise) and frankly my parents had hit the point where they spent most of the disposable income on themselves. Trips anywhere with them were torture, and I always begged to be left behind with family friends rather than go through several days of them getting tired and cranky and fighting all the time - I developed psychosomatic stomach ailments as a result - so possibly the "family vacation" doesn't hold the allure for me that it does for others. But also, as a singleton, I have made financial priorities for myself that experiences are more important than "stuff" - I have always questioned whether I'd make that same choice when I have kids of my own. Don't get me wrong: I don't feel an obligation to keep up with the Joneses or always have the newest and best. But Ron should have a wand that *works*, for example, no matter how it got broken; as matters stand, he's a real danger to himself and others, and I'm rather surprised the school permitted him to keep that broken wand. In that case, I think there should be a school emergency fund - and maybe Ron (or any other student) works off a sort of "co-pay" by working a couple of hours a week in the library or something like that for a term to "pay" for his new wand. (There's no canonical evidence for such a thing, but if they can find chores for the students to do for detention, I don't see why they shouldn't teach the students the value of good honest work with a couple of situations like helping Hagrid feed the magical creatures, or helping shelve books in the library for 2-4 hours a week.) >Besides, even when kids get something new, >there's always someone out there who will point >out that it's the wrong brand or bought from the >wrong store, etc. There's always someone who has >something better. Ron sees what Harry has now at >school but apparently has forgotten that Harry >grew up with even less than Ron has had. > Yes, he does. I've often thought the point of the Weasleys' poverty was to hammer home to Harry that everyone has problems - his blood family is for c**p, but he has a vaultful of money that keeps him from having the same kinds of problems Ron has. >My big problem with the Weasleys was how they >treated Percy when he became a prefect. New >robes and an owl? For a family in their >financial position, that seems a bit excessive >particularly when there are other important >things that should be considered. Ron should >have had a new wand rather than Charlie's old one >given the importance of a person's wand. I >understand Molly's desire to reward her child for >living up to expectations but it appears to have >been at the expense of the other kids. > >Lynn > Yes, Lynn, I commented above that this is what bothered me - I don't think Molly has any covert motives at all with the kids, I think it's very straightforward: Percy did the best and toed the line, so he's gotten new stuff to be a prefect with (which also creates more hand-me-downs, either for the kids directly or to be sold back to the wizarding consignment places from which Molly gets her second-hand stuff). Felinia > > >===== >For the international news that's fit to print >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). >http://calendar.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From RON_REID at NETZERO.NET Sun Jun 8 18:05:46 2003 From: RON_REID at NETZERO.NET (RON_REID at NETZERO.NET) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 18:05:46 +0000 Subject: Death In OOTP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59569 Well lets try this on for size. I have heard and read many times about the death in OOTP of a HP "Fan." Might that also include Hedwig or Firenze, I think that they are fans of HP and could fall into the "death" in OOTP. Ron From Estama02 at aol.com Sun Jun 8 18:57:01 2003 From: Estama02 at aol.com (Estama02 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 14:57:01 EDT Subject: Sirius vs Peter Message-ID: <103.2fd15315.2c14e0fd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59570 In a message dated 6/7/03 9:24:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > Katarzyna wrote: > >"If it is possible (and easy!) to discover the last spell the wand > >performed, why isn't this procedure widely applied - also in > Black's > >case?" > That same question was bothering me because it seems like such an easy thing to do. gamer 5255" wrote: My theory is, he SWITCHED BLACK'S WAND WITH HIS OWN. It's plausible that part of Sirius's 'shock' reaction is dropping his wand, right? And he might not notice a rat at his feet in that same shock. So, Pettigrew, as a rat, switches the wands(carrying them in his teeth) so the wand that performed the 'explosion' spell is at Sirius's feet, and the 'innocent' wand is near Peter's robes. Now, a call to Ollivander's would have resolved the issue. But Sirius tells us his imprisionment was due to very hurried procedures(i.e, no trial). Would it be so VERY remarkable if they skimped on the investigation? So, a quick PI shows the circumstancial guilt, and in the current state of the country, Crouch's Dark Wizard-catching mania and the Secret Keeper evidence, Sirius is just presumed guilty without a trial, and in the state of things, it slipped. Idea, no? It seems like a very likely thing that the wands could have been switched. At the time of this event Voldemort was gaining more and more power and everyone was extremely frightened, which could lead to why there was no trial. The Muggles saw Sirius, he was laughing, and he was the Potter's Secret Keeper. Peter hadn't been known to be a wizard with extraordinary talents, but Sirius was known to be clever. No one suspected Peter and I think that people wanted to see something behind bars. This doesn't stop the fact that had they checked the wands for the last spell cast, Sirius might have been free. Another thing that was bothering me is why no one examined the finger left over by Peter. Someone biting their finger off versus someone (allegedly Sirius in this case) killing the other person leaving only a finger would leave different marks on the finger. Had the finger been closely inspected by whoever in the wizard world takes care of these things Sirius's name might have been cleared. ~Carlie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 19:14:25 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 19:14:25 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Purpose of the Weasleys (was; Saving every Sickle) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59571 Hey Leah: >Jesta mentioned: >Ron is the only Weasley we see fret openly or get weird about money - >has anyone else noticed this? > >Leah (me ) replies: >I don't think we can really know how much the other Weasleys complain >about their situation. I think we get an especially close look at >Ron because of his relationship with Harry. If Ginny were part of >the trio (yes, I know, then it would be a quartet ;-D) we may hear >that she thinks: "everything I have [is] rubbish" (Ron GoF). We also >know that she confided to Diary!Tom about the state of her secondhand >things. I don't believe that Ron is any whinier than the others, >but, as readers, we just have a more personal relationship with Ron, >so we hear more of his private misgivings. > >Leah >(who is on pins and needles for another 17 days) > I think that you do have one point, which is that we see more of Ron than anyone else. However, we as the readers do get to spend some time in the Weasley home, and get to "be around" Percy, Fred, George and Ginny somewhat. Percy's focus and drive is all about doing well - not making money as the main source. Note he never talks about how he's going to get promoted at the Ministry to make lots of money; rather, not that these motives are necessarily superior, just other, he's focused on impressing the boss. Fred and George do have solid, concrete plans for what they're going to do for a living once they leave Hogwarts - oh, sure, their mom may think they're nuts, but they don't plan to go home and eat their magical sweets and loll about all day - they may be dealing with the realities of family economics differently by figuring "we'll have a plan that doesn't require us to depend on them either for money or approval - we'll be a big hit and be able to do something we love doing while making some sort of living at it". They don't seem to expect to strike it rich, just to earn a decent living and be on their own. Bill and Charlie aren't all bitter and maladjusted - they got out there on their own and are doing it, at careers which may not be hugely lucrative as yet, nor allow them to send much home (though privately I think Bill sends along a bit now and then) - they're well-adjusted, cool young men who obviously love their mum and dad a lot. In other words, I see the feelings more appropriately channelled. Some of that may be a factor of Ron's age, and some of you may be slightly right in saying I'm expecting too much of Ron's maturity level. What I think I *am* reacting too is the fact that, tacky modern american culture aside, it really is not proper/cool/the thing/good manners to speak of one's familial monetary situation in front of others. Ron has no choice in many situations - others bring it up first. But I'd love to see one brief expository scene wherein Ron and Harry have a heart to heart that's open and direct about money - where Ron says he's always felt ashamed, etc., and Harry says that's okay in an embarrassed adolescent way - at least your family don't lock you under the stairs. I'd trade all my money to have my parents back. That sort of thing. Nothing too sloppy because they're adolescent males. :-) But just to put it out there. a minor gripe for me, although I think it exists in this state to provide on-going textual tension: Harry really *could* do more for the Weasleys if he put his mind to it. I find all this "pride" the embarrassing part, actually. He could send an occasional anonymous gift to one of the Weasleys, and opine that it must have come from Bill or Charlie; he could "accidently" spill a few Knuts or Sickles in Ron's room on one visit to be found on the next break. I've done it and had it done for me throughout the course of my life. There are ways to help people if you put your mind to it - and I had to cheer when Harry bought everyone the Omnioculars and savagely brushed off protests. Felinia (*sorry if this makes less sense than usual - I'm getting a really bad headache*) _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From brittneyheck at yahoo.com Sun Jun 8 19:06:16 2003 From: brittneyheck at yahoo.com (Brittney Heck) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 12:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron, Molly and Those Robes/Much ado about money In-Reply-To: <002b01c32ab5$73cd7e00$65570043@hppav> Message-ID: <20030608190616.9520.qmail@web20513.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59572 Eric Oppen wrote: Firstly, the Weasley parents don't seem to have their heads on quite straight as regards money. When you've got four kids in boarding school, and books to buy for them for five years into the future, spending a windfall on a trip to Egypt strikes me as slightly insane. This is in regards to the continuing Ron/Molly/Robes debate. This is the first post I received on the issue and chose to make my comments with a bit form this attached because I felt it the most appropriate for what I have to say. I hope it fits clearly with the current train of the debate. In regards to the fact that the Weasleys don't manage their money well, that, I believe is obvious. I have known families in my own life whom have trouble with money and it seems that they so often are forced to do without, that when a large bundle of money comes in that they spend it irrationally on superfulous things (i.e. the trip to Egypt in the case of the Weasleys). Also, I htink that the Weasleys lack of money is part of why they are so we loved in the series. If you notice (and please point out if there is an obvious deviation from my theory) that wealth and power in this series go with being malicious and decietful; and, if not strictly those things, then with holding the view that one is better than the others. I think this idea partly ties in with the whole pure blood/mixed blood debate. The Malfoys (pro-pure blood) have a great deal of money and flaunt it, regularly. In fact, Fudge states in GoF that the Malfoys cannot still be loyal to Voldemort because the made donations to wonderful causes. Also, this is how the Malfoys get into the top box at the World Cup. This doesn't apply only to the wizarding world, either. The Dursleys (who obviously dislike Harry and the Weasleys, though wizards in general could go along with this point) are very much aware of money and monitary status and how that equates to the type of person you are. They believe people are below them if they do not have money or do not show their money through status symbols, cars, clothes, etc. I believe that the lack of money is part of why the Weasleys are so endearing to readers. I think it is their "human quality" if you will. I also think this is why Ron and Harry have such a strong bond because, unlike the other students, Harry knows what it is like to go without and to be ostracized for something you, as a child, have no control over. I hope this clearly makes my point on the money debate and on why the Weasleys did not use their money more wisely. Brittney ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 19:13:20 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 19:13:20 -0000 Subject: Ginny's dress, Ron's Attitude (was: Saving Every Sick... In-Reply-To: <37.39bc4ffa.2c1468dc@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59573 <<<--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RhianynTheCat meowed: Sorry if I'm bringing up a topic that's alread been discussed, but does anyone else feel that Ron's preoccupation with appearances, with money (and the difference between his financial situation and Harry's) is foreshadowing to him being tempted in some way to unwittingly betray Harry?>>> The Sergeant Majorette says: Exactly what I think. Maybe not on this group, but a couple of days ago I said I thought I smelled a story arc. We know that Harry is the hero, Hermione is the smart one, and Ron is- what, the chess player? Away from the chessboard, he doesn't seem to have the analytical mind you might expect: his main function seems to be providing Harry with the anchor of a normal kid-bud relationship in a sea of weirdness. This fits in with my theory that the 'special fan' of Harry's who dies will be Molly Weasley. I seem to recall that JKR discussed the fact that one death would be particularly difficult to write in the context of her feelings about her own mother's death. This not only gives our Ron a huge story arc but puts him through a trial by fire guaranteed to fry the emotional baby fat off him, making him a much stronger and more interesting character. --JDR From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 19:19:34 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 19:19:34 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Purpose of the Weasleys (was; Saving every Sickle) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59574 > > Leah (me ) replies: > > I don't think we can really know how much the other Weasleys complain > > about their situation. I think we get an especially close look at > > Ron because of his relationship with Harry. If Ginny were part of > > the trio (yes, I know, then it would be a quartet ;-D) we may hear > > that she thinks: "everything I have [is] rubbish" (Ron GoF). > >And to be a bit fairer to Ron, he has hand-me-down rubbish, and he's >last in the line of the boys, so a lot of his stuff might have >deteriorated quite a bit by the time it got to him. Even for the >items that are bought second-hand, well, money would possibly have >been tighter in the household by the time Ron came along than it was >when there were only, say, Bill and Charlie. So the quality of even >second-hand items might have been lower for Ron than it had been for >his older brothers. > This is a good point, and one I have thought of - Ron may get the worst of the lot in many cases. but I still think it was unkind of him to make the remark about Pigwidgeon. I'll grant you, he didn't get to pick out his own owl - but neither did Harry! Hedwig was a gift, and she's turned out cool. Also, since required books do change over time, it doens't necessarily hold that *everything* Ron has has deteriorated - As the time lag shortens from him to the top, the stuff will get better. >Ersatz Harry, who's wondering whether he should try to put all the >characters in their Myers-Briggs categories > Ooooh! Yes! :-) That would be fascinating. I can guess, but don't know most of the "Is" well enough. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 19:33:07 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 19:33:07 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Purpose of the Weasleys (was; Saving every Sickle) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59575 >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jesta Hijinx" > wrote: > >Ron, at least, appears to suffer from > > something common to the modern "Muggle" world which I am just as > > condemnatory about as some of the writing here about the Weasley >family > > values taken from different perspectives: he shows signs of money >addiction > > and an obsession (and I don't use the word lightly, if you look at >some of > > my past postings)..... > > Ron is the > > only Weasley we see fret openly or get weird about money - has >anyone else > > noticed this? I'd like to think the others realize that their >parents are > > doing the best they can, they're really doing okay (they're all >managing to > > make it through Hogwarts, after all) and Charlie and Bill have >independent > > careers which they appear to enjoy and seem to be remarkably well- >adjusted > > human beings. > >Ouch! >Obsessed....hmmm. Ok, this is a fourteen year old boy who is the >youngest of six brothers and gets everything second (maybe 3rd, 4th >or 5th) hand. Even his pet is hand-me-down. How do you know Bill and >Charlie weren't as 'obsessed' at fourteen. And how do you know Ron >will not grow up to be as well adjusted and self fullfilled at their >age? > I don't. :-) We only know what JKR shows us. And I see Bill and Charlie as well-adjusted - maybe birth order and not having to worry about hand me downs had something to do with it, although I *suspect* Molly was in second hand shops buying them second-hand stuff as well, with all those little siblings - and Ron as having an issue about being obsessed with money that might get worse as time goes on if it's not nipped in the bud now. :-) >If Ron is *obsessed* with money why did he give all the Leprechaun >Gold from the QWC to Harry? That, surely, is not a sign of a greedy, >money-obsessed person? > "Greedy" and "money-obsessed" are not the same things. There can be a huge amount of overlap. But actually, the incident you cited *is* evidence of the same: the reason Ron gave Harry the leprechaun gold was to "pay" for the Omnioculars, because he felt that there must be exchange for them - he couldn't accept a gift. Note that Hermione, who evidently comes from a fairly well-off background and is an only child, didn't have the same issues. Money obsession has elements of feeling like there has to be a monetary value to *everything* - that if Ron accepts Harry's gift, he will be admitting weakness, creating a debt, who knows what? I lived with a money-obsessive - I know what I'm talking about. As an example, while most people in a particular situation in an organization we were both in took pride and were grateful when other people made things for them or thought of them when shopping and picked up a particular small gift that had a motif they were fond of, this same person made a big deal out of paying a craftsman for a particular job that normally they weren't paid for (an award scroll) - sorry to be vague, but the details really aren't worth the typing effort and the time you spend reading - and made a point of telling everyone because he really thought that he was the superior because he'd given her money and that she must've done extra special work for him. In point of fact, she couldn't stand him, put some tiny hidden jokes into the work, and he was parading around looking like a colossal fool to the people who'd gotten better quality work simply because they were people of good character and merit and didn't *have* to pay for respect. Ron isn't there yet, but he's headed that way from what's written. >In PS we see how Harry hates going to school looking like a freak, >dressed in Dudley's old clothes. Ron feels the same way about his too- >short robes and lacey dress robes. We see him whining and complaining >to Harry because Harry is his best friend. But AFAIR their first >meeting on the train, far from complaining, Ron tried to cover up for >his meagre lunch, and not having money for the candy cart. > But he so obviously looked disappointed and put out, and didn't even try to put a cheerful face on it in front of a complete stranger. Yes, that may be a bit much to ask of an 11-year-old - but even though he said one thing, we as the readers can see (as we're meant to) that everything about him conveyed such an opposite message that Harry bought the entire cart out (and Ron didn't have a problem with that at the time). >I think Ron is a normal 14 year-old who has courage, loyalty and >strength of character far beyond his years. (Yes he is my favourite >HP character, how did you guess?) > And you're entitled to that opinion. :-) I don't dislike Ron, but again, I differentiate between what this person would be like if they were *real*, as a person, and how they are as a character. Ron is still kind of an enigma to me as a character - his main role so far seems to be "sidekick". One of my favorite *people* that I wish were real would be Remus Lupin; one of my favorite *characters* owing to fascination and complexity is Snape. >Infact the only member of the Weasely family with an unhealthy >obsession (I am not counting Mr. Weasley's facination with plugs :)is >IMO Percy. > >Percy is obsessed with his image, his position and power. He is even >jealous of Harry for being on friendly terms with Fudge. Imagine if >he had been in Ron's place - always in Harry's shadow. Do you think >he would have shown Harry the loyalty that Ron does? I dont think. > >But that is just my opinion :) > >Shaggy > And you're entitled to it. :-) i don't think Percy's direction or ambition is healthy at all in the grand scheme of things, but he is, to quote Judd Nelson from "The Breakfast Club", "every parent's wet dream". I'm not championing Percy - but he does manage to succeed and do quite well in school despite any obstacles of poverty. Maybe it makes him strive harder to prove himself. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 19:36:05 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 19:36:05 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Purpose of the Weasleys (was; Saving every Sickle) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59576 MarEphraim: Please believe me when I say I do not intend one iota of disrespect for you as a person: >Ron is like a lot of teenage/slightly pre-teenage boys. He's from a >larger family, has picked up on the 'we're not too well off >financially' motif of the family, and attempts to react in >a 'mature' manner by being cynical. It's one of his most endearing >qualities. I do not find cynicism even remotely endearing, especially in a young person. Cynicism does not equal sophistication. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 19:45:37 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 19:45:37 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Purebloods" and inbreeding Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59577 > > (Question: are Crabbe and Goyle, fine specimens of young wizard manhood > > that they are *koff!Koff!* then purebloods, if they associate with young > > Malfoy? Could be examples of the inbreeding that's come about. ;-)) > >Well, they must be "purebloods," since at the end of GoF it seems that >people >from their families are represented among the Death Eaters. >I like this issue of inbreeding. :) Could Crabbe and Goyle be examples of >what happens when the very few "purebloods" left in the WW marry each other >and >have children? > >Brief Chronicles > Could be, I suppose. Weren't their fathers/other male relatives noted among the DEs in GoF? I can't imagine Malfoy Jr. associating voluntarily with "mudbloods" given how he feels about them. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 19:49:49 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 19:49:49 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Life-Debt" Gripe Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59578 I wrote: a while: > > > > I see relatively frequent, almost casual references to "life >debts" between > > characters. (It's okay - just to save some typing, I know what >the concept > > means - I tend to leave out lengthy expository trains of thought >like that > > in e-mail when I assume everyone has the same knowledge base I do - > so > > please, nobody post a long discussion of the meaning of "life >debt" and the > > cultures in which it crops up. ;-)) > > > > Yet nowhere does the phrase actually appear in canon that I know >of. Anyone > > got a cite they care to share? > > > > I ask because while a nice idea, I think that it's a tacit >assumption that > > might not really hold in the WW on the part of fandom that any of >these > > characters owe or feel they owe a life debt to another. Just >because it's > > common among world cultures and in literature (the most recent >media > > reference *I* can recall is Qui-Gon Jinn speaking to Boss Nass >about Jar-Jar > > Binks in "Phantom Menace") doesn't mean that's how JKR is writing >in the > > Potterverse. > > > > Any thoughts? > > > > Felinia Beauclerc > > >now me: >I've always gone by the quote from DD to Harry at the end of PoA. >"You have sent Voldermort a deputy who is in your debt...When one >wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond >between them..and I'm much mistaken if Voldermort wants his servant >in the debt of Harry Potter." Ch 22. PoA > Okay, and this is a scene I tend to skim quickly, so it's not surprising I missed it - thanks, that's the strongest piece of evidence I've seen so far. Not to split hairs, but it still doesn't use the phrase "life debt" exactly - it mentions being in debt, it mentions a bond, but does not use the phrase "life debt", which is sort of what I'm after - that exact phrase. >I don't remember the entire cemetary scene and I doubt that wormtail >would help Harry so obviously with all the DE around. I'm sure that >this debt will come into play in OoP. > >~shinesse~ > Or a later book. :-) Felinia _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From oppen at mycns.net Sun Jun 8 20:02:18 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 15:02:18 -0500 Subject: What if Moody had screwed up? Message-ID: <00ab01c32df8$de8e1a60$2e560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 59579 You know, thinking about the Third Task, there were a lot of chances for Moody to screw up his part in things very badly. Imagine if he _hadn't_ Stunned Fleur Delacour...and she'd grabbed the Cup? I don't think for a second that she's not talented, and she might well have Veela-related skills that would have been helpful with some of the perils that Harry didn't happen to face. So, Fleur gets the Cup, and is Portkeyed to the Little Hangleton cemetery. Now what? You know, _that_ is an eventuality that would seriously throw a spanner into Lord V's plans, wouldn't it? It would make a heckuva fanfic, too. Would the blood of a _witch_ have the same effect on Lord V's resurrection? Or would he come out of there...altered...in ways he hadn't expected? "WORMTAILLLL! I've become _Lady_ Voldemort! AAAUGHHHH!" *At this point, Lord, now Lady, Voldemort starts whaling on Wormtail with the biggest stick he, now she, can find for screwing up _that_ badly* Not to mention, all that Veela ancestry in Fleur's blood might kick Lord V's libido back into action, even if he came out of the cauldron male. _That_ opens up a whole different can of worms, doesn't it? "Hmmmm...I feel the first animal stirrings I've had in many, many years, and here's Fleur, all helpless. I won't need the robes _just_ yet, Wormtail..." Of course, JKR's writing books that are read by children, so she couldn't have gone there, could she? I wouldn't put that past Lord V for one second, though. (And if another side-effect was that he was back in his han'sum "Tom Riddle" body, that would also alter things considerably, even if he _didn't_ decide to ravish Fleur.) From oppen at mycns.net Sun Jun 8 20:10:55 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 15:10:55 -0500 Subject: Gilderoy Lockhart, Agent of Lord Voldemort? Message-ID: <00b101c32dfa$1295ffc0$2e560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 59580 One thing that occured to me, rereading CoS, is that Lockhart's activities could have had a darker rationale than helping him sell Lotsa Books. What if he had a secondary purpose, namely, eliminating the very wizards and witches who'd be the most useful to the Good Guys, before Lord Voldemort came back? Think about it: He goes around finding wizards and witches who've successfully battled Dark creatures---and destroys their memories. I don't know if the Memory Charm would absolutely render someone amnesiac, but from what he says in the outer part of the Chamber, I suspect so. And we know that an amnesiac wizard or witch can't cast spells, or even remember that he or she is magical; Gilderoy's amazed at magic after he Obliviates himself. Now, wouldn't this sort of thing be just the way to prepare the way for a return of the Dark Lord? I mean, eliminating the very people the other side would find the most useful would be something _I_ would think was a good plan, and I don't doubt that for all his megalomania, Lord V. (or his puppet-masters; remember my post earlier about how it's possible that Lord V. is an unwitting front-man for people like Lucius Malfoy?) is smart enough to think of it for himself. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Lord V. hissing in OoP that "One reason I hate Harry Potter is because, thanks to him, one of my best agents is now a gibbering idiot in St. Mungo's!" I wonder what sort of acronym I can use for a theory that Gilderoy Lockhart is Lord Voldemort's agent? I'll have to think... From distractedone at comcast.net Sun Jun 8 20:09:35 2003 From: distractedone at comcast.net (Merlin) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 16:09:35 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Scar... References: Message-ID: <000a01c32df9$e26c97a0$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59581 Grey Wolf said: >> Whatever magics are operating around the scar that >> link Harry and Voldemort together, they only work between the post-AK >> Voldemort and Harry. Diary!Tom is the copy of the pre-AK Voldemort, >> when he was still 16, and since at the time he was still basically >> human and hadn't been almost blasted into smitherins, there it does not >> set off Harry's scar. >> >> Hope that helps, >> > To which brookeshanks replied: > > Yeah, I agree. it has to be that. I am trying to formulate my own > theory about why Harry has such vivid dreams that not only > foreshadow, but also often tell him something that is really going on > at that time (like chapter 2, book 4). There has to be some sort of > link/history to V and Harry. At first I thought the result of the > dreams was because of the "brother wand" theory - Voldy's AK curse > backfired because of the same phoenix feathers. But that can't be it > because Harry was still an infant and did not have a want yet. Any > thoughts? > I say: I think you are missing the clue here. It says that Tom is still blurry, meaning that he hadn't taken all of Ginny's life energy from her yet. This also means that Tom was not yet fully real, he was still just a memory, a shadow of the past and that is why Harry's scar did not hurt. If Ginny had died and Tom had become fully realized then I'm sure Harry's scar would have been doing it's usual sommersults. Merlin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Sun Jun 8 20:15:34 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 22:15:34 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] NON-Spoiler Question... References: <164.216a2f2a.2c1407c2@aol.com> Message-ID: <002401c32dfa$b8c380c0$cb93253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 59582 Piper wrote: > I have a question about OotP, but it's not a spoiler.... > > I'm ordering from a small bookstore that orders the books from > Scholastic. Does Scholastic send the books early, so the stores keep them until the > day it goes for sale? How early are the books sent? Or do the books arrive > day-of or day-before? > Me (Fridwulfa): As far as I know, they're getting the books a little earlier, but they have to sign a sort of contract, compromising to notopen the boxes till midnight. Cheers, Izaskun From diana at slashcity.com Sun Jun 8 19:23:25 2003 From: diana at slashcity.com (Diana Williams) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 15:23:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Molly and the Day Job (Was Ron, Molly and Those Robes) References: Message-ID: <02a601c32df3$72b56820$0a02a8c0@DianaPC> No: HPFGUIDX 59583 > Becky: > > >Now then. On to a completely different point. I'm highly suspicious > >of our dear mother!Molly. I think there must be something she does, > >other than blunder around an empty house hold. Now, I haven't re- > >read GoF yet, so there might be canon in there that I have mentally > >blocked. But really, any witch with a solid Hogwarts education > >doesn't seem like she would be content at home doing basic things... > >Can you imagine Hermione sitting idly at home? I can't even see > >Lavender keeping a wizard house and not doing other things. We know > >Dumbledore trusts her. He's likely to give her something to do from > >now on. What I want to know is what she's been doing for the last > >three years!! Any thoughts? Canon to make me look dumb? Actually, Molly Weasley has a pretty big day job already - she's taking care of a large household and trying to stretch a small paycheck to take care of a lot of people. People who have never done that don't realize how time consuming it can be. It's not all sitting around eating bon-bons and watching Oprah. It can be very demanding and exhausting work - during the various times I've been between jobs and working at home, I found it harder work than my job! And despite the fact that most of us have been raised to think of careers, only 6 out of every 10 women in the US work outside the home (a little over half), and that number is less in other parts of the world. Plus, in my mother's generation (roughly equivalent to Molly's age-group), most married women stayed home at least until the youngest ones went off to college. So yes, it is conceivable that Molly Weasley is fully occupied already. Diana W. From diana at slashcity.com Sun Jun 8 19:14:34 2003 From: diana at slashcity.com (Diana Williams) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 15:14:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Dress Robes Affair References: Message-ID: <02a501c32df3$72a98140$0a02a8c0@DianaPC> No: HPFGUIDX 59584 Fred Waldrop said: > >And please answer me one other thing, when Ron complained about his > >robe, Mrs Weasley tried to explain that it was second hand, and then > >she got embarressed and left the room. Why didn't she show Ron the > >robe in private so NEITHER would get embarressed? Or an even more > >resonable question would be be, why didn't she remove the lace before > >she gave the robe to Ron in the first place? > >I know that children can be annoying and everything, but sometimes, > >being the adult, the parents have to just deal with it. > > and Felinia replied: > I have no idea why she did that, Fred - my guess is that it's because JKR > wrote it that way to drive the plot. Remember, we only know what she > chooses to show us. I doubt , really, that she would write a Molly Weasley > whose first aim in life is to embarrass her kids. > > Felinia One thing to point out is that parents sometimes forget how easily embarrassed children get. I can remember being *horribly* embarrassed when my mom came home from shopping one day and announced outloud that she'd bought me some new underwear so I could throw away my old, torn ones - right in front of my best friends. And despite remembering how humiliating that was, I came home the other day and announced to my son that I'd bought him some boxers I thought he'd like better than the last ones. As parents, we just sometimes get caught up in what we're doing and forget to take into account various sensitivities. Diana W. From celticpriestessofavalon at yahoo.com Sun Jun 8 20:40:16 2003 From: celticpriestessofavalon at yahoo.com (Jen) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 20:40:16 -0000 Subject: Just a small comment on the Harry-Godric heir thing Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59585 Hi, This is my first post and I have been reading everyones postings for the past week. Everyone has a lot of really good theorys. I just wanted to point out that JKR always leads the reader down the wrong path. Making you think that its one thing when it is really another. She makes it obvious that Harry could be the heir of Godric Gryffindor. I don't buy it. There has to more to it then that or that he isn't related at all. Then in Chamber when you think he could be the heir of Slytherin, turns out he just got some of Voldies powers through the curse. Is she leading us down the wrong path again. I think its too easy of an explanation. I think this rule can be applied to other things in the books as well. Jen From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 20:56:21 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 20:56:21 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione And Bulgaria Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59586 Julia: >I agree that Harry and Ron won't be invited to join Hermione in her trip to >Bulgaria. However I've got an idea what they can do -- let's imagine that >Hermione goes to Bulgaria. Ron is enraged. He and Harry make a 'plan'. They >persuade Weasleys to go and visit Charlie in Romania (which borders on >Bulgaria) or let them two go there. In Romania they have multiple choices >how to affect the situation: they can either visit Hermi and Krum or make >Hermione join them instead! I'm sure Ron will find a way to prevent >Krum&Hermione relationship. > >Romania/Bulgaria can be that 'new' place where Harry is supposed to go in >the Book 5. >What do you think? >(well i think it's not the most probable scenario, but anyway quite >possible...) > >thanx for your attention >Juli (lurker!) > Actually, this is a much more thoroughly thought out version of an idea I'd had a while back, but promptly forgotten in all the day to day demands of life. I suspect that one of the reasons OotP is so long, again, is that it has elements dealing with the summer break - the World Cup Quidditch Match and allt he surrounding stuff was the major element that made GoF so long, after all. I do think that Ron and Harry will find some way to wind up in Eastern Europe - that there will be a Bulgaria/Romania adventure connection; and don't forget, Albania is in that general neck of the woods as well! Perhaps they will discover/uncover some more information about what Voldemort has been up to. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 21:03:31 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 21:03:31 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Much Ado About Money (concerning the Weasleys) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59587 >It wasn't *all Molly's fault*, but neither was Ron the sole >responsible one (imo). > >It seems, Molly should involve all her kids a bit more in >housework. It couldn't hurt to have them make their own >sandwiches for the train ride to Hogwarts... > I thinkt hat's a good point...unless Molly had bitter experience with Fred and George making everyone tadpole & cheese sandwiches in the past... Felinia _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From linlou43 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 8 21:27:26 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 21:27:26 -0000 Subject: Idealism,The Weasley Family and Pride In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59588 I've been deliberately staying away from the discussions about the Weasley family dynamics because many of the opinions have touched upon a sore point with me and I didn't want to start any fires. The discussions however, have reached a point where I feel the need to speak up, and since I feel I have had time to react intellectually to the issue rather than emotionally I think I can keep my comments from becoming inflationary. I am the mother of two; a boy of thirteen and a girl of ten. As a result I have quite a bit of empathy toward Molly. I can not even comprehend raising seven children and don't pretend to know what it is like, but I do feel for Molly and the situation she is in. There has been quite a bit of back and forth on the suitability of Molly as a role model and although many of the points raised are valid I think that because this is a piece of fiction the tendancy is to look for a role model who is perfect. I sincerly doubt that JKR was aiming for perfection in any of her characters. It has been accepted that Harry is not perfect, nor is Hermione, so why must perfection be demanded from the Weasley family? (I realize that many of my fellow list members have not demanded this and I have no wish to offend.) Once HHR go back to school, we have no canon regarding Molly's feeling about the famous robe incident. I'm sure she went over the event several times in her mind, asking herself how she could have handled it differantly. I, certainly, have lost my temper with my kids and regreted it after the fact. There is no canon either way whether Molly tried to rectify the blowout with Ron via owl post, in fact as a mother I see it as highly probable. I also think (based on my thirteen year old son) that Ron would have been just as embarressed by the public argument as his mother was and told her "not to worry about it " in response. He might have even gone so far as to tell her he would take care of the issue leaving no choice but for her to drop the subject. IMO, he would not have told Harry about this exchange because it would just heighten the level of embarassment. Also IMO, his fourteen year old pride would not allow him to seek the help that he told his mother he would. It would then follow that what frustrates Ron is not the actual state of his robes but his inability to put his pride aside. That brings us back to the issue of Ron's refusal to accept help- especially financially. I see this as an extension of Molly's (and Arthur's as well) pride in providing for her family the best she can on their own without compromising their beliefs. This is easy for me to accept as well. At the beginning of my marriage I was five months pregnant when my husband lost his job. As a matter of necessity we went on public assistance and even then we did not have enough to live on. Both my parents and my husbands parents bought us baby formula and diapers. The waiting list for housing assistance was so long as to useless, and the check we receiverd from the state was not even enough to cover the rent and utilities. There is nothing in my experiance that can make one feel so helpless as having to depend upon others for everything. The Weasleys as we see them in the books are self sufficient and like Molly's parenting issues I have a lot of empathy for how important that is to them. Twelve years and another child later my husband and I own our own home and are able to provide a few extras for our children and there is a large amout of pride involved just in being self sufficient. Somtimes, when you don't have a lot, pride is all you have left and it must pain Molly every day that she can not give her children all she wishes she could. Ron's reminding her of that fact, especially in front of Harry, was a blow below the belt, and at fourteen he is old enough to know it. I'm sure he regreted his outburst as nuch as she regreted hers. I have to wonder if the time JKR spent on public assistance has colored her portrayal of the dynamics of the Weasley family. If I had her talent for writing, and was in her shoes, it would certainly color mine. In conclusion, I feel that because the Weasleys are the "good guy family" we try to create in them the ideal family. That is patently unrealistic and not IMO, not JKR's intent. Her writing has a basis in realism and that kind of idealism just doesn't fit her style or service the story she is telling. Just MHO. -Linda, who apologizes for somewhat disjointed nature and long windedness of this post. From bard7696 at aol.com Sun Jun 8 21:34:57 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 21:34:57 -0000 Subject: More much ado about money and those damn robes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59589 To respond, paraphrasing, to a bunch of the other comments on this money/Molly/Ron issue. Why didn't Molly pull Ron aside? For the first time in years, she's got a full house again, with Bill and Charlie back, and plus she's got two other house guests in Harry and Hermione. That's a lot of laundry, cleaning and cooking. Plus, she's got three other of her own children, and Harry and Hermione to shop for, organize clothes, and get packed, not to mention try to get some time with her husband, who's working late hours, and maybe get -- GASP! -- a minute to herself. So, I think maybe her thinking that Ron didn't need nursemaiding through the robes crisis can be forgiven, don't you? Why didn't she fix the lace? There has been speculation as to Molly and Arthur's ages, but perhaps she didn't grasp how out-of-date they were. We don't know what Arthur's robes look like. Or perhaps she meant to, but didn't get around to it, what with other things going on. And then Ron threw the attitude at her, and she said, essentially, "You know, I'm sick and tired of how ungrateful this little brat is, whining about how everything he owns is rubbish, so let him fix his own damn robes." Perfect? Not at all, but completely understandable. What about the other kids? We see Ginny stoically repairing a book, where Ron blew his new book money on dungbombs. We see Ron whining about rubbish and George expressing concern about how his parents will pay for all the Lockhart books. We see Percy somehow managing to become Head Boy and get top honors on used books and materials. Far as I can tell, although the other kids certainly are faced with the poverty, and deal with it in different ways -- Percy by working that much harder (and arguably, Bill too); Fred and George by becoming class clowns and trying to earn their own money and Ginny by trying to keep a stiff upper lip in the face of insecurity -- Ron is the one who deals with it like a whining goof. And no, I don't find it endearing. Fred and George and their humor in the face of it is endearing. Ron is just whiny. Cynicism without the benefit of experience is just a bad attitude. What is this all setting up? I think, and have always thought, that Our Boy Ron is going to face a serious fork in his road. Some people have targeted Percy as the weak link in the chain, but when the chips are down, I think Percy will land on the right side. I see Ron facing a serious temptation in his life and it could bode badly if he chooses wrong. Or, what could it be setting up... Well, since Hermione is destined to become the Headmistress of Hogwarts, maybe Ron, who is destined to have a job with the Quidditch Federation, will just have to learn to have a wife that makes more than him. Darrin -- Would LOVE to have a wife that makes more than me. From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 8 22:14:35 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 15:14:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Purpose of the Weasleys (was; Saving every Sickle) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030608221435.46906.qmail@web20005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59590 --- Jesta Hijinx wrote: > But Ron should have a > wand that *works*, for > example, no matter how it got broken; as matters > stand, he's a real danger > to himself and others, and I'm rather surprised the > school permitted him to > keep that broken wand. In that case, I think there > should be a school > emergency fund - and maybe Ron (or any other > student) works off a sort of > "co-pay" by working a couple of hours a week in the > library or something > like that for a term to "pay" for his new wand. > (There's no canonical > evidence for such a thing, but if they can find > chores for the students to > do for detention, I don't see why they shouldn't > teach the students the > value of good honest work with a couple of > situations like helping Hagrid > feed the magical creatures, or helping shelve books > in the library for 2-4 > hours a week.) Excuse me, but IIRC, Ron didn't tell his mother that the wand got broken, he just patched it up. She can hardly be blamed for not magically knowing something. And he got a replacement after she knew. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jun 8 22:47:48 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 8 Jun 2003 22:47:48 -0000 Subject: File - ADMIN OoP Spoilers.txt Message-ID: <1055112468.55967039.96688.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59591 Greetings from Hexquarters! As we all count down the days until the release of OoP, the Administration Team has been huddled at Hexquarters, all of the entrances securely bolted and towels stuffed under the cracks beneath the doors. Nothing, we vowed, must disturb our careful deliberations and detailed preparations for This Blessed Event. Finally, the Admin Team have something to show for their hard work. We have decided how we will handle the issue of spoilers for the OoP release. Our view is that anyone who comes to a HP discussion group around the release of OoP really should expect to encounter spoilers. Lots and lots of spoilers. For that reason, we have decided *not* to require list members to use spoiler space at all. Instead, we are introducing a new prefix for subject headers, which will give members fair warning that the post contains OoP spoilers. Beginning today, we would like members to use the "OOP" prefix for any post to any of our lists that contains spoilers for OoP. Subject headers should not, of course, contain spoilers themselves -- "OOP: Sirius Dies At Azkaban!" rather defeats the point of the OoP prefix. For example, an appropriate subject header might be, "OOP: Harry, Sirius." Harry and Sirius are so interconnected in previous books that this isn't a spoiler. "OOP: Harry, Lupin" on the other hand, *would* be a spoiler, as we don't know whether Lupin is in Book 5. "OOP: Lupin" would be better (as for all we know, you might be posting on why Lupin isn't in the book). Remember that a subject header which has *both* a chapter number and a subject is in itself a spoiler. 'OOP: Chapter 32 - Sirius' tells readers that Sirius turns up in Chapter 32. For a reader only on Chapter 7, where Harry is worried about his godfather, that's a spoiler. If you want to discuss a particular chapter, use chapter numbers *only*. 'OOP: Chapter 32' is fine. Please begin using the new "OOP" prefix on all of our lists -- especially the main list and OT-Chatter -- beginning today. And remember, if you have any comments about any OoP release issues, holler at us at: hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com "The truth." Dumbledore sighed. "It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution." [PS/SS Chapter 17] Be like Dumbledore. Tell people as little as possible. ;-) Counting down to June 21st The Administration Team From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jun 8 22:47:48 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 8 Jun 2003 22:47:48 -0000 Subject: File - ADMIN List will be closed to posting from 23 59 June 20.txt Message-ID: <1055112468.55966928.96688.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59592 Hello HPfGU Members! It's an exciting time here on the List as we wait with bated breath for the arrival of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix! While we're all patiently (!) waiting for the Big Day, your Friendly Administration Team has been running around making preparations for the blessed event. After many long talks with and input from many of you, we have decided to close the Main List to posting for 45 hours from the moment of first release, midnight Friday night (20th June) British Summer Time. This means that, while you'll be able to read all the fantastic posts in the archives, you will not be able to post your own messages until the closing time has passed. The list will re-open to posting at 9pm on Sunday 22nd June, British Summer Time. That's 4pm on the East Coast of North America, and 1 pm on the Pacific Coast. This will allow everyone a chance to read and reflect before posting about OoP and sharing messages with the usual high standard of thoughts and opinions. But fear not, friends! There are ways to share all your observations, be they about Draco's robes or the Dursleys' breakfast menu! OTC, otherwise known as Off-Topic Chatter, will not be affected by the Main List closure, so you are free to post your comments there. Just remember that not all readers of OTC will be in the happy position of having a copy of OoP, so be sure to use the proper spoiler prefix (OoP:) and avoid giving away details in your headers. If you're not already a member of OTC, go to www.groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter and join the friendly gang that hangs out there. Remember, OTC is one of our sister lists, so the same rules of behaviour apply there as apply on the Main List. Once the Main List is reopened to posting (hurray!) we suggest you repost any particularly brilliant canon observations there. Otherwise we could all go cross-eyed as we try to read canon discussions on both lists Thank you all for reading this, and Happy Harry Day to you on June 21st! The HPfGU Administration Team From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Jun 9 00:35:42 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 00:35:42 -0000 Subject: Ron couldn't be the "special fan" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59593 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > <<<--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RhianynTheCat meowed: > This fits in with my theory that the 'special fan' of Harry's who dies will be Molly Weasley. I seem to recall that JKR discussed the fact that one death would be particularly difficult to write in the context of her feelings about her own mother's death.> I'm not sure how you can categorize Ron as a "special fan" of Harry's. That takes quite a lot away from their friendship. Ron does not adore Harry from afar, snap photos of him, stare at his scar, or follow Harry around, trying to start a conversation, the way so many people in the WW seem to do. Ron is simply Harry's friend. They certainly have their issues, but Harry would never say that Ron is anything other than his friend, equally. Ron may at times feel resentful of Harry for being famous or for inheriting a good deal of money, but I'm sure that he, too, feels that Harry is his closest friend, not someone to approach for an autograph. --jenny from ravenclaw ******************************** From patgruenke at cloudnet.com Mon Jun 9 00:44:23 2003 From: patgruenke at cloudnet.com (Pat and Jim Gruenke) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 19:44:23 -0500 Subject: [HpforGrownups] The Purpose of the Weasleys/Ron's Wand Message-ID: <3EE3D867.6010103@cloudnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59594 There have been lots of comments one way and another about Ron's wand, and his not getting it fixed or getting an new one. What we all need to remember is that Ron's broken wand is a HUGE plot point. If he had one that worked, Lockhart's memory charm would have worked on them, Ginny would be dead, Voldemort would be back, and the series would be over. Yes, she could have handled it another way, but it getting broken by the Whomping Willow was pretty funny. So, Ron needed a broken wand. I'm not even going to go into the dress robes! :-) I do agree with the poster who stated that she thought that JKR's life experiences with poverty (or close to it) color her writing of the Weasley family. I love Molly. She's human. I love it that JKR makes the mother of a large family a normal person, not some stereotypical saint or raving lunatic. Molly is like my friends with large families. We're talking 4, 5, 6, 7 kids. They loose it, and roll with the punches. Pat, who is wondering who to dress up like for a costume contest at the bookstore. Sadly, I'm closest to Aunt Marge... ;-) From kristen at sanderson-web.com Mon Jun 9 01:07:38 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (GKJPO) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 01:07:38 -0000 Subject: "special fan" ...fact or fiction? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59595 Did anyone ever find the reference to the "special fan" of Harry's being the death in OoP? I looked through all the interviews I could find with JKR and never found a reference. The only factual reference I have found is that the death is painful to write. That means to me either that a. the circumstances of the death are painful or b. the character that dies is special to JKR. It also makes a difference when folks are guessing who the death will be. If someone did find the interview with the special fan quote, could you please post the reference? Thanks Kristen From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jun 9 01:09:24 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 01:09:24 -0000 Subject: Hermione's career / Harry's career / Ron, Harry, Molly, and MONEY / Owl Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59596 Darrin wrote: << since Hermione is destined to become the Headmistress of Hogwarts, >> No, Hermione (if she lives) is going to become the first Muggle-born Minister of Magic, one of those crusading liberal politicians from a previous lifetime. HARRY (if he lives) might well become Headmaster of Hogwarts, after being Professor of DADA, after being an Auror or such, after being a Quidditch star. RhianynTheCat (whose name I love) meowed: << Sorry if I'm bringing up a topic that's alread been discussed, but does anyone else feel that Ron's preoccupation with appearances, with money (and the difference between his financial situation and Harry's) is foreshadowing to him being tempted in some way to unwittingly betray Harry? >> Some people have suggested that before, also that Ron's desire for glory and his envy of Harry's glory shown by the GoF squabble could be set up for that purpose, also that Ron's difficulty in shaking off the Imperius Charm from fake!Moody's class could be set up for that purpose. I cannot believe that RON would EVER betray Harry (or any friend, or the good side) for mere MONEY -- even if that attitude is a piece of money-obsession. I've trying to think up a scheme where money could be the bait to lure Ron into betraying Harry, and all I can think of is schemes for money to lure him into being captured so that Harry feels the need to rescue him. As for glory, some listie (I can't remember who) posted a long essay proving that Ron's snit was NOT envious or jealous, but emotionally hurt by Harry having (he believed) *lied* to him (about whether he'd put his name into the Goblet himself), thus betraying their friendship, so that the snit was actually a sign of how *much* Ron values loyalty. Susanne siskiou wrote: << It seems, Molly should involve all her kids a bit more in housework. It couldn't hurt to have them make their own sandwiches for the train ride to Hogwarts... >> Felinia Jesta Hijinx replied: <> I was thinking of Molly having in the past had to do the band-aid spell, wash her children, and clean her kitchen, after Fred and George had used the family sandwich-making 'quality time' to levitate the knives out of people's hands, then drop then, levitate the peanut butter out of the jar and into someone's hair, etc. Fred Waldrop wrote: << Why didn't she show Ron the robe in private so NEITHER would get embarressed? >> It seems to me that Molly was too busy and *forgot*. It seems to me that it was a week (and the QWC riot scare) since she dumped each kid's parcels for the kid to take up to his or her roomm, before they got busy packing, which is when Ron finally unwrapped his parcels. Even if she had intended, while buying the controversial robes, to have a word with Ron about them, it went out of her head when she heard on the news that her whole family was endangered by rioting Death Eaters. Felinia Jesta Hijinx wrote: << Aunt Petunia (who evidently doesn't have an outside the home job either, yet almost no one comments on that! ;-)) >> But we *know* how she spends her days -- watching the neighbors for gossip and watching the TV shows that report on the Joneses with whom the Dursleys are trying to keep up. Fixing that fancy meal for the Masons probably took all day, too. << I'd love to see one brief expository scene wherein Ron and Harry have a heart to heart that's open and direct about money - where Ron says he's always felt ashamed, etc., and Harry says that's okay in an embarrassed adolescent way - at least your family don't lock you under the stairs. I'd trade all my money to have my parents back. That sort of thing. Nothing too sloppy because they're adolescent males. :-) But just to put it out there. >> I don't think that would work out very well. It sounds to me it that the next step is Ron's temper flaring up: it's not enough for you to always win everything, Harry Potter, you have to always have worse problems than anyone else, too. << Harry really *could* do more for the Weasleys if he put his mind to it. I find all this "pride" the embarrassing part, actually. He could send an occasional anonymous gift to one of the Weasleys, and opine that it must have come from Bill or Charlie; he could "accidently" spill a few Knuts or Sickles in Ron's room on one visit to be found on the next break. >> Do you think Ron would have fallen for that? If he found money spilled on the floor of his room after Harry had been his guest there, he would have guessed it was Harry's and returned it to him, possibly with jabs about having so much money that one didn't notice some had gone missing. Where would Harry have learned about secret charity? Not in the Dursley home. I don't think from the kind of TV shows that Dursleys would watch. << I'll grant you, he didn't get to pick out his own owl - but neither did Harry! Hedwig was a gift, and she's turned out cool. >> We don't know that Harry didn't get to pick his own owl: << Twenty minutes later, they left Eeylops Owl Emporium, which had been dark and full of rustling and flickering, jewel-bright eyes. Harry now carried a large cage that held a beautiful snowy owl, fast asleep with her head under her wing. He couldn't stop stammering his thanks, sounding just like Professor Quirrell. >> Since Harry had been in the owl store with Hagrid, Hagrid might have asked him "Which one do you like?" From kristen at sanderson-web.com Mon Jun 9 01:15:06 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (GKJPO) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 01:15:06 -0000 Subject: Connection between Voldemort and Fawkes? In-Reply-To: <1da.b4755ce.2c14df6d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59597 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: I write...: > > Could it be that > > the feather in the wand core retained that loyalty to DD and chose > > Voldemort for the sheer purpose of providing a defense in the > > future? > > OR -- what if the wand chose Voldemort because he will be loyal to his own > cause? What if it means that Voldemort is completely evil and Harry is > completely good and they are both 100% loyal to their own sides of the same coin? > > Brief Chronicles > Ok, you have a point - though I like my idea better :) :). However, to split hairs, we have no indication that phoenix bond to people who are loyal, only that once they choose an owner they themselves are loyal. I'm not sure it would work both ways (though, what do I know, I'm talking about a feather with conscious thought :). I was thinking about the wand like the sorting hat and the quill that writes down Hogwarts students. We know that certain combinations of casing and magical core make for different specialties, so there must be some "thought" characteristics for the wand. Do you think that they correspond to the animal who donated them? I'm going to guess that someone has mapped out these wand/wood characteristics at some point - does anyone have a reference? Thanks Kristen From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Mon Jun 9 01:17:38 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 01:17:38 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Dress Robes Affair Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59598 Sherrie: > > Parents are not perfect and all-wise; sometimes they do react to a >*minor* > > outburst of a problem that's been major for some time. I know my >parents > > did it more than once, and I've seen my friends' parents do it, and my >own > > friends when they're parenting. Sometimes the same spot gets picked at >so > > often that it's just raw and it provokes an outburst when it would have >been > > > > better ignored or on a rare occasion helped the way the kid wanted it. > >Felinia, I agree 100% with your assessment here. I'm from an >almost-Weasley >sized family that wasn't exactly wealthy - we didn't get to have all the >things other kids had, whether it was the latest fad in clothing or a new >car when >we turned 16. What we DID have was a home that was always open to any of >our >friends, food on the table, clean clothes on our backs (so what if they >weren't designer jeans?), & a family that (mostly) watched each other's >backs. Did >we whine sometimes? Well, yes - one of my sisters, especially. And my >parents - especially my mom - reacted VERY much the way Molly does to Ron's >complaints, whenever we DID. (Ron reminds me a LOT of this sister, BTW - >that's NOT a >good thing, in case you were wondering.) > Thanks! Yes, I know parents who are rather unsympathetic if they've pointed out, over and over again, what the family or the particular kid *does* have; and they still hear about what's lacking. >Would my parents try to fix things, if they were aware of the problems? >Sure >- but we had to TELL them there WAS a problem, & tell them that we NEEDED >help. Not HINT at it, not whine about it - flat-out TELL them. Mostly, as >we >got older, we tried to find ways to fix things ourselves - which is what I >assumed that G&F had done with THEIR dress robes. > You know - it's so funny that you should mention this particular dynamic, because it's amazing how many adults grow up to follow this same pattern - the hinting. I'm in an officer position in a non-profit group to which I belong, and over Memorial Day weekend I was at an event where a number of people who were connected with one particular activity wanted something to happen that they kept dropping by to hint to me about. I stoutly ignored them, and finally went to one of the officers for that activity and said, "Please - keep these people out of my hair. Hinting won't do any good; I will not act until I get official word from you or [the other officer entitled to ask]." I don't know why people think that hinting is a better or less demanding method than asking right out, especially on this coast - they seem to think it is less 'demanding' somehow. Anyway, it is annoying in adults, and I can see where, about teenaged years, parents would want to start to eliminate it, if not sooner. >I also seem to recall someone mentioning that Mrs. Weasley should know that >Ron doesn't like maroon - yet always makes him maroon jumpers. That's not >at >all unbelieveable to me. I LOATHE the color pink - ever since I was a >child >(even when I was a blonde). Yet every year at Yule, my mother would get me >one >or two items of pink clothing. Finally, when I was, oh, about 35 or so, >she >said to me, "You don't like pink, do you?" Took her a while - but she >finally >figured it out! > And you're omitting the most obvious answer (IMHO) of all: that mother thinks she knows best. :-) My mother was addicted to the joys of navy blue polyester - can you see a three-year-old dressed in navy blue polyester everything? I remember one go around she had when I was buying material to make a cape for the SCA - I had my eye on a heavy azure blue with a lighter gold lining. Somehow she got it all twisted around and me twisted around in the fabric store - I still lived at home and was highly dependent on her for things like transportation, which she would not hesitate to manipulate to get her way over unrelated items - to where we were about to buy more, you guessed it, navy blue polyester that I would have to piece. I finally came to my senses and said, right in front of the clerk, "You know - I'm not crazy about this at all; navy blue isn't really blue, which is what I want, and if you're going to threaten to make me walk home today if I spend my own money on what I want and need, then I just won't buy it right now." I can imagine she wans't pleased with me talking back to her like that in front of someone - speaking of defiant teenagers :-) - but it was *my* money and she had no right to be that manipulative or controlling, since she wasn't wearing it and she wans't being called on to wash it or get stains out of it (I'd done all my own laundry including hand washing for four years at that point). But my point is: my mom thought that dark colors were always best "because they wouldnt' show dirt" (like I never washed or did laundry! that's what always got me about that argument, becuase I'm manic about not appearing in or wearing dirty clothes), and she thought polyester was a miracle fabric, at a time when natural fabrics were making a big reappearance and all my generation thought polyester was horrible and tacky. Molly may well prefer Ron in maroon and think he looks best in it and that he doesn't know what he's about with not liking it. Maybe he liked it as a small child and she hasn't been able to shake that patterning. It doesn't always spell blindness in a situation like this: sometimes it's a decidedly different opinion at work. >To me, Molly behaves very much like a realistic mother of a very large >family. And Ron just seems to be (IMHO - hang on while I put on my NASCAR >firesuit!) someone who always wants others to do things for him, whether >it's homework >or fixing what's "broke", & whines when he doesn't get his way. > >Sherrie >All our tomorrows are built upon the foundation of all our yesterdays... > Sherrie, this is a good point. A big deal has been made of how Ron has suffered by being the last in a long string of sons, always getting the short end, etc.; and no doubt there is *some* truth to some aspects of this. However: he was also the last son at home. Fred and George are how far ahead of Harry and Ron? For some time, Ron got to be home with Molly doing things for him (and I'd bet my eye teeth Ginny helps with more of the housework than Ron does, even if Ron does more of the "outside" chores). I suspect that that, plus the natural tendency to protect the baby brother from his older brothers, if on uneven occasions, made Ronny into a tiny bit of a whiner. He's not bad - otherwise he'd have no spine at all, and he does have spine. But basically he's just a flawed human being. You know? Felinia _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 01:27:43 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 18:27:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HpforGrownups] The Purpose of the Weasleys/Ron's Wand In-Reply-To: <3EE3D867.6010103@cloudnet.com> Message-ID: <20030609012743.54638.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59599 --- Pat wrote: > who is wondering who to dress up like for > a costume contest at the > bookstore. Sadly, I'm closest to Aunt Marge... > ;-) Lynn: Dress up like Aunt Marge, after she was blown up! Bet you'd be the only one there dressed like that. Lynn (who is probably closest to Molly Weasley but without red hair, just red highlights) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Mon Jun 9 01:54:43 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 01:54:43 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tomboy Lily: Lily's friends Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59600 >>Hi Felinia, ENTJ, as a fully-committed INTJ, nice to meet you! > Nice to meet you too, Catherine! >Finally, re. friends in general, what do we mean by ?close?? I have >strong female friendships of long standing, but would never call them >?soul-sisters?. I?m closest to my real sisters, but would not call >them friends, it?s a wholly different relationship, even though many >of our day-to-day interactions are things friends would do. Different >people have friendships in different ways ? think of Jo and Meg March >in Armstrong?s Little Women film (forget if the incident is in the >book), when close as she is to Jo, Meg has not told her by letter that >she is pregnant, it isn?t strange, it?s just them. > >Catherine McK > There are, indeed, many different flavors of friendship. It is entirely possible that out of *friendship*, Lily elected not to involve any of her close female friends and their families in the danger she and her family were being exposed to. Neither Sirius nor Remus appear to have had nor to now have an SO nor a child. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Mon Jun 9 02:40:18 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 02:40:18 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Families: Purebloods and Half-Non Humans Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59601 To take some of this a bit out of order: Grey Wolf wrote, in part: > > I have a theory that, at some point, if there's only one Muggle > > ancestor, it's basically considered to "fade back" if every line > > since then is entirely wizard, or has the same degree of regression. > >While it has been suggested before (canon: Hufflepuff's boy with >"witches and wizards both sides for ten generations", CoS), I think >this is overthinking the issue. Nothing in the books indicates the >wizards have an established rule for turning from mixblood into >pureblood. As long as you can go back a while and keep finding wizards, >that's enough. As with noble families, it is more important that people >believe you're pureblood than being really pureblood. If your family is >traditionally pure, no-one will check. > > > 2) what about illegitimate children, or children whose father isn't > > really who their mother says it is? What if a > > child shows up thinking they have pure Muggle parents but they are > > actually the result of a liaison between their mum and a wizard? > > Say, even, that she was a single mum and the dad married her and > > adopted the child as his own? > >Since pureblood is all about status, I would say that illegitimate >children, even if coming from two pureblood families families, wouldn't >be well received. > >Hope that helps, > >Grey Wolf > Well, since what I'm looking for is peer discussion, not help per se, it certainly is the contribution of a viewpoint. :-) You're entitled to believe it's overthinking the issue; I don't think so, not at all, since it keeps coming up over and over again. Hagrid's mention of how wizards would have died out if they hadn't intermarried suggests that there was a single point where all or a lot of the original wizards appeared; yet it seems from people like Hermione that there is either a spontaneous mutation that brings wizarding powers up - or else there are genes *so* recessive that crop up again in later generations that the parents are thought of as Muggles and have no clue. It seems to be an incredibly important issue in the WW. You may be right about illegitimate children in general not being well received; but although this doesn't appear in JKR's universe, I'd be surprised if there was *never* a cuckold in all of the WW history. It makes for some interesting speculation. > >Cassie wrote: > > What I am wondering is...if a person is half > > wizard/half non human...are they considered fullbloods because they > > have magical blood? And if not...how would those big on the whole > > pureblood thing feel? > >IMO, those very keen on pureblood - like the Malfoys - will probably >find half-breeds with any non-wizards discusting (although they might >make exception with "interesting" half-breeds like half-Veelas). After >all, to the likes of Malfoy, there is no difference between muggles and >giants - both are basically subhuman in his eyes (IIRC - no canon handy >- someone proposed muggles as a beasts for FB book). > >Certainly Draco doesn't as much fear Hagrid because of his ascendency >as think it disgusting. When push comes to shove, however, the whole >pureblood concept is used as a form of racism, and racism doesn't need >logic behind it. If they want to feel superior, they'll find reason to. > No kidding. And the emphasis on purebloods is, pure and simple, racism. I'm suggesting, in this discussion,t hat it may not even be that measurable and may be an "artificial" argument to begin with in the WW. > > And can two non-humans produce human children? (the same way two > > muggles can produce a witch/wizard). > > > > ~Cassie~ > >You mean, two giants produce a human? I doubt it. Muggles and wizards >are the same species, like blonde and black haired people are the same >species - magic ability is just a trait. But even if giants and humans >and veelas are genetically compatible, that doesn't mean (in >Potterverse) that they're the same species. Two giants will produce a >giant. > >Felinia Beauclerc wrote, in a similar subject: > > This whole issue of mudbloods, purebloods, what have you. > > > > 1) What is the exact definition of each? > >Pureblood: Wizards back as far as the memory can tell. Even if some >records have to be conviniently rewritten. Just like the noble >families, there is always a way of finding common people 10 generations >back, but enough money would hide that. > >Mudblood: Muggle parents. > >Mixblood: somewhere in the middle > >All of it is a little on the ridiculous side, though, as the books >suggest, and the only reason is still around because some wizards feel >the need to feel superior by using their ancestry to set a difference. > > > I'd say the odds that there are *any* wizards who have totally pure, > > wizard-only bloodlines that go back to the dawn of time (or even to > > the time of Hogwarts' establishment) are vanishingly small. > >Not necesarily. Wizards and muggles have kept apart, and thus there is >good chances that certain family lines have interbreeded for the last >20 generations. Yes, it is small, but not that small. After all, >remember that wizards live twice as long as muggles, and thus their >generations are much longer - only 20 generations since Hogwarts >founding. > I think that it is possible in a tiny number of categories - but what if the choice is between marrying a mixed blood, for example, and not passing along your genes or marrying at all or passing along your legacy? Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From odilefalaise at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 02:42:27 2003 From: odilefalaise at yahoo.com (Odile Falaise) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 19:42:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Purpose of the Weasleys/Ron's Wand In-Reply-To: <3EE3D867.6010103@cloudnet.com> Message-ID: <20030609024227.84534.qmail@web13114.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59602 Pat wrote: >There have been lots of comments one way and another about Ron's wand, and his not getting it fixed or getting an new one. What we all need to remember is that Ron's broken wand is a HUGE plot point. If he had one that worked, Lockhart's memory charm would have worked on them, Ginny would be dead, Voldemort would be back, and the series would be over. Yes, she could have handled it another way, but it getting broken by the Whomping Willow was pretty funny.< And now me (Odile): Before there is another big debate as to why Ron didn't simply ask for a new wand, here is quotage from CoS (UK pb), p. 74]: "...Everyone filed out of the classroom except [Harry] and Ron, who was whacking his wand furiously on the desk. 'Stupid ... useless ... thing ...' 'Write home for another one,' Harry suggested, as the wand let off a volley of bangs like a firecracker. 'Oh yeah, and get another Howler back,' said Ron, stuffing the now hissing wand into his bag. "It's your own fault your wand got snapped --" " [end quotage] And while I'm not ready to start polishing a C.R.A.B. badge for myself - I agree with Darrin that Ron was out of line in giving Molly a hard time about the robes - Ron seems to me to be like one of those people/adolescents who are apt to find fault with just about anything, whether they mean it or not. It's his nature, IMNSHO. An example from real life: I am an assistant to someone who is extremely wealthy. I was appointed guardian for the afternoon of the family's 14 1/2 year-old daughter; she and I took a private jet, then a limo, to a deluxe suite at a luxury hotel overlooking a park. The parents had the larger room and she had a smaller room (which was still bigger than my entire studio apartment). As soon as we entered, she said [are you ready for this?!]: "I always get the crappy room." There's just no pleasing some people. I do wish Ron would be pro-active and do *something* about the things he doesn't like, but maybe that is how he has to grow and develop - his story arc, if you will. Odile, who is dressing up for the OoP release and hopes that Pat will too!! ^_^ From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Mon Jun 9 02:45:16 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 02:45:16 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Much Ado About Money (concerning the Weasleys) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59603 >I see both Ron's side and Molly's side so clearly, I can't quite take >a side myself. Ron is justifiably embarrassed about receiving robes >that are simply ugly, while watching Harry receive robes that are very >nice. Molly *does* brush him off in a way that isn't too >understanding. Are those really the only robes that she felt were >appropriate for her 14 year old son? > maybe there wasn't a large selection - and has been postulated by others, she probably simply did not have time to sit down with him privately and discuss the situation - maybe also she somewhat in a "tough love" vein figured there was nothing to be done, and he could just cope once he reached Hogwarts - maybe she even figured he'd alter them to suit himself. >However busy Molly appears to be, she can certainly sit down with her >son privately and discuss their situation. She can also offer to >teach Ron how to fix the robes himself so he can deal with second-hand >clothing in the future and so she doesn't have to add Ron to her list >of worries. He could have used some guidance from Molly here. > He could have, and maybe she intended to - but maybe it slipped her mind with everything else going on. >However, Ron is rude here. He complains about his mother's purchase >in front of guests. If I had ever done that, my mom would have taken >my robes away from me and then I really wouldn't have had anything to >wear to the Yule Ball (then again, I'd go naked to the Yule Ball if it >meant going to Hogwarts) Ron knows damned well that the Weasleys >don't have the money to buy the kind of robes Harry receives. Don't >you think Molly is tired of hearing about it? Her response makes me >wonder if he has complained to her one time too often. She seems >exasperated in an "I am sick and tired of hearing about this!" way. >Molly doesn't offer to remedy the situation, but it is true, as many >have pointed out, Ron doesn't ask for help either. He could have >asked his mother to show him how to fix his robes, so he wouldn't have >to keep complaining. Instead, he expects her to do what she cannot. > YES. Thank you. This would have been exactly my mom's response: "Don't like your prom dress? Well, you can do without." And i agree with the "he's probably complained once too often" theory. It doesn't really matter how many times we see him complain in the book - we can't assume that's the only time it comes up. Yes, it's the only canonical evidence; but everything in their body language and the frequent Weasley discussions suggests that this is well-covered territory and there's really nothing to be done but soldier on. >There seems to be an issue of communication here. I really don't care >if Molly is busy; she can make time to talk to her children. In fact, >I am not sure how she can be so busy when she knows magic well enough >to always do several things at once. Her children are all old enough >to help more around the house as well, yet I see no evidence that any >Weasley other than Molly does much to help, aside from setting the >table and chasing gnomes out of the yard. Teach your kids some >responsibility, woman! > I, also, would like to see the kids doing more around the house. >Ron, though, is focused more on his family's monetary status itself >than why they are in that situation. People in the WW go out into the >work force younger than we do - most people I know did not look for >full-time employment at 18, straight out of high school. Ron can >spend more time thinking about and planning his future if he hates his >family's situation so much. > >See? I really see both sides here. Molly and Ron both handled things >badly. > >--jenny from ravenclaw ***** > I agree. Molly's not perfect, but I have about 60% of the sympathy for her and 40% for Ron in this situation. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Mon Jun 9 02:52:25 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 02:52:25 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Much Ado About Money (concerning the Weasleys) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59604 >It might be interesting to sort out the "sides" on this issue by >nationality. We Americans are notorious for inventing the concept of >the "teenager": a creature miraculously endowed with the rights of an >adult and the privileges of an adorable little child. Absolutely (fledgling sociology grad student here). Somehow the idea of adolescence as a magical time when things are "owed" has come upon our culture - frankly, this is driven by a couple of forces which have nothing to do with internal nature: advertising and a need to sell to an audience that is constanlty bored and will consume; two, the pressures dating back to the Baby Boom of a younger generation that would push at the existing work force if them were to come right out at 18 and earlier seeking work - therefore, that has to be delayed with the idea that this is the time to goof around, have a series of low-responsibility or part-time jobs, go to school, flunk out of school, take trips to Europe, etc. arose. Most societies go right from childhood to adulthood. I can't help but feel that they're the wiser, because of the huge number of people who seem to get irretrievably stuck in "the magic of adolescence" and never find their way out until they're suddenly old. I have a huge number of friends a few years older than me who went from being "bad boys" their whole lives and ruined their health and relationships and families, suddenly to find themselves old men wanting someone to "take care" of them and being curmudgeonly that no one is willing to do that - they've bypassed the whole joyful part of life of being a mature leader in community and family and earning those bonds of love and care. You can't just demand them. But I digress. ;-) As usual. I'm American >myself, but from New York, so I don't have a lot of patience with the >political correctness of the heartland. This is OT, but i don't find what I consider the Heartland (by which I mean the Midwest, where I was born) to be overly politically correct in the sense I understand it. Most of society there ranges from conservative to reactionary in values. If anything, you're going to find more "tough love" there than you will on either coast. Just an observation. My own mother is of hard- >headed Jamaican stock. She put food on the table and you could eat it >or starve. (That's a quote). I'm sure she also told me more than a >few times that I was welcome to go naked if I wasn't willing to wear >what she provided. Also heard: "we're not made of money", "when you >get out of here and get a job, you can waste your own >money", "children in Europe are starving" (this was the fifties). > Same here, different era. ;-) >Finally, to illustrate the culture gap, here are two views of >Hogwarts: >On the Scholastic 'Parent Guide' page: "The characters and their >lives are quite similar to real-life...but at the same time, are one >degree removed -- by the fantasized world of magic...Hogwarts - a >school for wizards - is certainly unique..." --Adele Brodkin, Ph.D. > >From The New York Times, Oct. 10, 1999: "...readers on this side of >the Atlantic may not appreciate how much there is of realism, as well >as magic, in the exotic tales of young sorcerers being trained at the >Hogwarts School...What J.K. Rowlings has done...is to take the >traditional rituals of English public schools and show them in a >light in which they seem as curious to outsiders as the rites of >passage of tribal Africa. She makes it easy to overlook the fact that >the most visible character going through Harry Potter's training is >Harry Windsor." -- 'The Playing Fields of Hogwarts', by Pico Iyer > >--JDR > Interesting quote. :-) But it's a good allusion to the contrast between British public school adolescence and Americna adolescence. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From cantor at vgernet.net Mon Jun 9 02:55:38 2003 From: cantor at vgernet.net (cantoramy) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 02:55:38 -0000 Subject: Cheating in the Third Task/ Harry's wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59605 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > Voldemort is approx 70 years old; Harry is 14. Voldemort has spent > decades studying his craft intensely and refining his power. > Certainly, he appears to be more powerful than Harry. And while Harry > doesn't have the training or experience to back up his magic, he has > certainly shown hints along the way, like his powerful patronus charm, > that he has immense magic potential. > Absolutely. The Sorting Hat told Harry "There's talent, oh my goodness, yes..." (PS uk pb, p. 90) Actually, it appears the the Sorting Hat saw characterisitcs of all four houses: "Plenty of courage"--Gryffindor "Not a bad mind either"--Ravenclaw "a nice thirst to prove yourself"--Hufflepuff "There's talent" "it's all here in your head"--Slytherin No wonder that hat was puzzled about where to put Harry! cantoramy From flamingstarchows at att.net Mon Jun 9 03:07:56 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 22:07:56 -0500 Subject: Sorting Hat WAs: Cheating in the Third Task/ Harry's wand References: Message-ID: <005a01c32e34$54069340$3608570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 59606 From: cantoramy Actually, it appears the the Sorting Hat saw characterisitcs of all four houses: "Plenty of courage"--Gryffindor "Not a bad mind either"--Ravenclaw "a nice thirst to prove yourself"--Hufflepuff "There's talent" "it's all here in your head"--Slytherin Has anyone wondered about when the Sorting Hat said "now that's interesting..." Parcelmouth, or something else? ~CAthy~ From ninth88 at aol.com Mon Jun 9 03:33:18 2003 From: ninth88 at aol.com (ashwinder99) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 03:33:18 -0000 Subject: "a hundred years" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59607 This is my first post here, so hello everyone! I've been a member here for a while now but have just lurked in the shadows, trying to find time to read everything. I'm amazed by how many messages I get each day, it's hard to keep up! I didn't have anything to say until today: I'm re-reading PoA again and I noticed something on page 6 (hardcover US version) "... Lily and James Potter had not died in a car crash. They had been murdered, murdered by the most feared Dark wizard for a hundred years, Lord Voldemort." Wait, a hundred years? Isn't he in his 60s now? I don't remember how I know this, but I'm pretty sure he is. I'm sorry if this has been talked about a lot a while back, or if I'm just missing something. Just hoping someone can clear this up for me. Thanks! -Olivia From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Mon Jun 9 04:33:43 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 04:33:43 -0000 Subject: "a hundred years" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59608 He was not saying that LV was feared for a hundred years, but that of all the Dark Wizards of the last hundred years, he was the most feared. Bill From WFeuchter at msn.com Sun Jun 8 21:03:30 2003 From: WFeuchter at msn.com (hpoldfan) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 21:03:30 -0000 Subject: The Purpose of the Weasleys (was; Saving every Sickle) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59609 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jesta Hijinx" wrote: > I personally think Ron needs a good paddling over some of the stuff he frets > about (but then I favor corporal punishment for spoilt brats). Ron is the > only Weasley we see fret openly or get weird about money - has anyone else > noticed this? I beg to differ, all the twins do is try to invent products that they can sell to make money Bill From leperockon at aol.com Sun Jun 8 21:12:39 2003 From: leperockon at aol.com (taylorlynzie) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 21:12:39 -0000 Subject: The Dress Robes Affair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59610 I am NOT blaming Ron. Ron is one of my favourite characters and I don't think he has ever complained before really, at least not to his mum that we know of. What I am saying is that Ron is the little immature boy. This isn't anything against its who he is. And yes I do know what its like to be a 15 year old (girl in my case) and I know that things can be embarrasing but he didn't ask! And I know you quoted that big long thing about how "he did ask in his own way" but there was nothing in there about him asking. I also am not saying that Ron was lying about his robes but considering that 14/15 year old boys tend to blow things out of proportion a bit even though Harry agrees does not make it 100% valid. I don't know who you are thinking of but in every post that I have read not one of them was saying Ron was a bad poor so know one is going to talk about how "inconsiderate" he is. We all just know that Ron is a little immature boy which is something he will grow out of. You seem very defensive about things you don't need to be defensive about. No one was slamming Ron, dear. Tay From ninth88 at aol.com Mon Jun 9 04:44:23 2003 From: ninth88 at aol.com (ashwinder99) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 04:44:23 -0000 Subject: "a hundred years" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59611 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" wrote: > He was not saying that LV was feared for a hundred years, but that of > all the Dark Wizards of the last hundred years, he was the most > feared. > > Bill Me: Oh. Count on me not to realize that. But that leads to interesting questions. Who has there been that was more feared than Voldemort? The only other Dark wizard that I can think of that seemed especially bad was Grindelwald, but that was in 1945. Were they really feared more than LV? You'd think someone would have mentioned him/her. Eh, anyway, thanks for clarifying. Not the brightest crayon in the box, Olivia From leperockon at aol.com Sun Jun 8 21:27:17 2003 From: leperockon at aol.com (taylorlynzie) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 21:27:17 -0000 Subject: Death In OOTP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59612 > I have heard and read many times about the death in OOTP of a HP "Fan." > Might that also include Hedwig or Firenze, I think that they are fans of HP > and could fall into the "death" in OOTP. > > Ron I'm not sure. I also wasn't sure if the "fan of Harry Potter" was a true comment from JKR. I've heard something about those weren't her words or something of the sort. But if we are going along the lines that JKR DID say that it would be a Fan of Harry then I suppose taht Hedgwig or Firenze could be the death. Somehow I don't think so though. I never really thought of an animal or magical creature being the death in the books. I think the death in book 5 will be someone that Harry knows a bit more then he knew Cedric. Cedric's death was the first in a long line of many, and though it effected Harry greatly I think that the deaths will become more personal as the story progresses. Sorry, I was slightly side tracked. What I mean to say is that though Hedwig would be something hard to cope with I think that her death would not be nessisary to the plot line. As for Firenze I don't think that Harry knows him enough for this to be too tragic for him. Though I could completely wrong. Only time will tell. Tay 13 Days and Counting.... From kcartweel at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 00:27:59 2003 From: kcartweel at yahoo.com (kcartweel) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 00:27:59 -0000 Subject: Names in goblet Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59613 I was reading a post when this accured to me. When each student put his or her name into the goblet, they also put the name of their school. Then when the goblet selected the student who would represent their school, that piece of paper came back out. So.. wouldn't DD be able to see that Harry was entered under a different school? I dont think that the goblet could have rewritten the name of the school champion. From gretchen.bakies at prodigy.net Sun Jun 8 23:43:17 2003 From: gretchen.bakies at prodigy.net (Gretchen Bakies) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 19:43:17 -0400 Subject: Magic Quill Message-ID: <000f01c32e1f$7cced720$68c24943@prodigy.net> No: HPFGUIDX 59614 I've noted that several people have speculated if we will see items from the other three founders like Godric Gryffindor's sword. I don't' know if this has been discussed before or note, but could the magic quill that writes the children's names down when their born be Rowena Ravenclaw's old quill? Since her house is linked with unusually intelligence, this could make sense that she'd be the one to leave something to identify future magical children. This is my first real post, so please be gentle if the idea is really crazy. Instead of sending Bludgers my way, just send a house elf to quietly lead me off to St. Mungo's and I'll go back to lurking! From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 01:01:25 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Bond) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 18:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: An introduction, Sirius Black, the four houses Message-ID: <20030609010125.9123.qmail@web20712.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59615 Hey, I'm new here or actually well I'm not all that "new" hear I used to be on this list on another email but I had to for a lot of reasons discontinue that email and resubscribe to all these email lists under my new email. I just rejoined many of these mailing lists today, after a one year hiatus (I know me, I'm going to NEED to discuss my obsession with Harry Potter with SOMEONE once Order of the Pheonix comes out. And I remember how polite, insightful, and intelligent all of you were so I rejoined the list. Just a little about me before I get too caught up in all my various thoughts/ questions and insights. I am a 22 year old college senior from Ohio. I am an education major and have been a Harry Potter fan for about three years now (wow, has it really been THAT long???) Okay now for the good stuff you have all been waiting for, my little "book" comments. This is an excerpt taken from Fantastic Posts and Where to find them When he is arrested, he is allegedly laughing. At least, that's what Fudge and Stan Shunpike say. Sirius doesn't say anything about this in the Shack (and when I asked him about it, he gave me That Look again). I have often wondered why Sirius would laugh about something like that. I remember when I first read POA and found out that Sirius was in fact good and did not murder all those people or betray James and Lily I immediatly called my best friend, Kathy explain my astonishment about this. The first thing that came out of my mouth was "But why was he sitting there lying as he sat there in front of all those dead people?" Kathy responded by telling me that maybe for a short time Sirius really did go psycho and unstable. She said if all that had happened to you in one night how would you react? The truth is I still do not know the answer to that question....I've never seen my best friend get killed, my god son taken away, and one of my friends murder 13 people and then blame me more it..so truth bet told I cannot tell you how I would act. However, this isn't about me it's about Sirius..and to be honest, I hadn't really about why Sirius laughed again until I found myself reading a except about it on the website. And I think that perhaps the mystery was possibly solved, at least for me. It was because of this little post that I found snippet that I found also from the fantastic posts section.... He isn't affected by the dementors as badly as other prisoners; he believes it is because he knew he was innocent?an unhappy thought that the dementors couldn't suck away from him. He also can still turn into Padfoot, whose emotions are simpler than a human's, and the dementors think he is losing his mind like everyone else, so they leave him alone. Relatively speaking. Now do not ask me why, but I can see Sirius being the type of person who could laugh at the dementors, make jokes with guards, we all know that he enjoyed reading the newspaper. In the books people were amazed by how little it affected him..however, I Think that he was very much effected by everything that happened to him...however, he is not the type of person who would want people to think that they had gotten the best of him (that they scared him or what not). That is why I think he laughed as Peter turned into scabbers and went away, it was the only reaction he could give that wouldn't make Peter think for one minute that he was scared, or hurt. If he had done that Peter would have won...Sirius is not a very loosing type of person I do not think he would ever let Peter win. I am wondering what you guys think the reason the house is devided into four distinct places, each with defining characteristics and traits *mind you that most of the characters can be easily divided into more than one house* I am inclined to think that in the end the most important clue to what is going to happen in the books is the four houses. I believe that the houses will each have to come together to defeat Voldemort once and for all. However, obviously I am open to people who disagree with me. What do you guys all think? Well that's enough of me an my rambelings for now..sorry this is such a long post! ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Mon Jun 9 01:18:57 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 20:18:57 -0500 Subject: Special fan who dies References: Message-ID: <3EE3E081.6070004@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59616 Who is Harry's 'special fan'? Why, Ginny of course. I think her time with Tom Riddle might have mentaly scarred her in ways we cannot imagine and may lead to her betraying Harry, then dying in some effort to redeem herself at the last momment. Jazmyn From RhianynTheCat at aol.com Mon Jun 9 01:33:58 2003 From: RhianynTheCat at aol.com (RhianynTheCat at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 21:33:58 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Purpose of the Weasleys (was; Saving every Sickle) Message-ID: <15e.20f98dcd.2c153e06@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59617 In a message dated 6/8/2003 12:16:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jestahijinx at hotmail.com writes: > Fred and George do have solid, concrete plans for what they're going to do > for a living once they leave Hogwarts RhianynTheCat stretches luxuirously 'pon her velvet chair and says: Fred and George are certainly concerned enough about money and the lack thereof to have plans and schemes to try to get their hands on some. They wager all they've managed to save on the Quidditch World Cup in an attempt to parlay their earning. They have a real cottage industry going at Hogwarts with their sweets. P'raps that's why we don't catch them whining 'bout their robes ... they're busy trying to do something to remedy the situation. <> You make an interesting point (well, p'raps the point I read is not exactly the one you intended, if so, apols :) that each of the Weasleys deals differently with the money situations, but it does affect them all to the point that it shapes their characters in significant ways. George and Fred become entrepenurial. Percy strives to excel first in school, then in beurocracy (I think, for example, that what drives Hermione to excel is different that what drives Percy ... same result, very different motivation and p'raps very big differences in what they would do to excel). Molly obviously takes pride in her handiness and craftiness in making things. P'raps the reason Arthur has such a fascination wit Muggles is that he identifies with them as "underdogs". I think the care that JKR puts into the motivation of her characters is a big part of her brilliance. And I think the fact that she is taking such care with the whole money angle supports my current pet theory that before the series is done Ron will inadvertently sell Harry out for some time of monetary gain (either actual or promised). Now, it obviously wouldn't be as straightforward as "I'll give you 13 Galleons to betray Harry" but might be something as insiduous as a hair from Harry's head for a supposedly smitten girl who is actually one of Voldemorts agents trying to make a polyjuice potion. He will, of course, repent but I'm wondering if he doesn't bring about the death that's so darkly forewarned. catlady at wicca.net wrote: <> How very kind of you to say so. Very merrily met indeed :) ::::Curls fluffy black tail about herself just _so_ and returns to her nap by the fire::::: ^ ^ =( * .*)= [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From esk at europa.com Mon Jun 9 02:57:03 2003 From: esk at europa.com (Cindy L Wells) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 19:57:03 -0700 Subject: Red and Green [was Re: Dumbledore's Gleam Revisited] References: <1055079276.2238.96701.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001901c32e32$cfc3bd20$3ea4adcf@jwells> No: HPFGUIDX 59618 Jaimee wrote: > The colors red and green have been analyzed several times on this > site, and I apologize ahead of times for mentioning them again....but > I just can't get over how JKR uses the colors red and green to > indicate "good" and "evil," respectively. > > We have red Gryffindor and green Slytherin. We have red sparks issued > from Harry's, Dumbledore's, most good wizard's wands...but green from > Voldemort's and Crouch!Moody for the Unforgivables. We even have the > red phoenix and the green snake. > > But with eye color, everything's reversed. Voldemort has *red* eyes, > and Harry has *green* eyes. I mean...it would have been a little on > the freaky side for Harry to keep with trend of good=red and have the > red eyes...but even so, the fact that their eyes are red (for the bad > guy) and green (for the good guy) has always left me feeling > unsettled. It seems to me that this is just JKR trying to get across in yet another way the importance of choices. We seem to have almost a red and green version of the yin and yang symbol, where there is dark inside the lightness (Harry's own potential within Slytherin) and light in the darkness (Voldemort's childhood trauma which leads to a tiny bit of sympathy). Actually, the spots inside the symbol almost resemble eyes. :-D Each side contains an element of the other, and therefore it is truly the choices we make that differentiate which is stronger. In fact, I believe that facing the darkness inside seems to be an essential component of fighting the darker forces effectively. Lupin was one of the best DADA teachers, I think particularly so, because he had to face the darkness inside himself in a very significant way. You almost have to go through that internal battle before you can effectively face it externally. Otherwise, that ignorance can be used against you. If you still live in fear of what's inside of you, that can be easily played upon, no matter how courageous and brave you are externally. This is something that is reinforced by the whole Joseph Campbell "Hero's Journey" concept, that most of the dragons and evil monsters that heroes face in mythology are actually symbolic reflections of internal battles with inner demons. It's just Harry's luck that he's dealing with them both inside and out, and it looks like this will only intensify in the OoP. Just my two knuts worth. :-) Cindy W From ABadgerFan2 at msn.com Mon Jun 9 03:17:56 2003 From: ABadgerFan2 at msn.com (abadgerfan2) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 03:17:56 -0000 Subject: Cheating in the Third Task/ Harry's wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59619 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cantoramy" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > > > > The Sorting Hat told Harry "There's talent, oh my > goodness, yes..." (PS uk pb, p. 90) > > Actually, it appears the the Sorting Hat saw characterisitcs of all > four houses: > > "Plenty of courage"--Gryffindor > "Not a bad mind either"--Ravenclaw > "a nice thirst to prove yourself"--Hufflepuff > "There's talent" "it's all here in your head"--Slytherin > > No wonder that hat was puzzled about where to put Harry! > > cantoramy YOU'VE HIT ON IT!! My view is that Voldemort wanted to get rid of Harry even as an infant because he has the blood lines of all four Hogwarts founders, and as such can be a unifying force in a magic world that Voldemort would rather divide and conquer!! Book five should tell us more on this! From gypseelynn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 04:22:18 2003 From: gypseelynn at yahoo.com (Rebecca Sylvester) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 21:22:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Special Fan" - fact or fiction...and why was it painful to write In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030609042218.64853.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59620 Like you Kristen, I looked and looked for any reference to the "special fan" of Harry Potter <> and have never found one. I do recall the interview where it was stated that writing the death of this particular person was difficult to write and my own personal theory agrees with your second theory <> I think that it is someone that JKR feels a special bond with, either because it reminds her of someone from her own life or because he/she is close to a character based on someone from her life. I am anxious to find out who it is, thus ending the arguments, but I would love to hear other theorys. Thanks, Rebecca GKJPO wrote: Did anyone ever find the reference to the "special fan" of Harry's being the death in OoP? I looked through all the interviews I could find with JKR and never found a reference. The only factual reference I have found is that the death is painful to write. That means to me either that a. the circumstances of the death are painful or b. the character that dies is special to JKR. It also makes a difference when folks are guessing who the death will be. If someone did find the interview with the special fan quote, could you please post the reference? Thanks Kristen Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 05:35:53 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 05:35:53 -0000 Subject: Names in goblet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59621 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kcartweel" wrote: > .... Then when the goblet selected the student who would represent > their school, that piece of paper came back out. So.. wouldn't DD be > able to see that Harry was entered under a different school? I dont > think that the goblet could have rewritten the name of the school > champion. bboy_mn: I'm not sure what you are asking. The Goblet was 'hoodwinked' into believing there was a forth school. We, or at least I, believe it was an un-named school. So the slip of paper didn't say 'Harry Potter and The Schwartz Academy of Magic and Croissant Shop'; it just said, "Harry Potter". The Goblet believed there was a forth school, and Harry bacame that champion by default. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 05:44:56 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 05:44:56 -0000 Subject: An introduction, Sirius Black, the four houses In-Reply-To: <20030609010125.9123.qmail@web20712.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59622 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melanie Bond wrote: > > ...edited... > > When he (Sirius) is arrested, he is allegedly laughing. At least, that's what Fudge and Stan Shunpike say. Sirius doesn't say anything about this in the Shack (and when I asked him about it, he gave me That Look again). > > I have often wondered why Sirius would laugh about something like that. > > ...edited.... > > ~Melanie bboy_mn: I always assumed it was because he was hysterical with grief and guilt. His closest friends in the world are dead, and they are dead because of an action he convinced them to take (switching secret keepers), they are dead because they trusted him to protect them and he failed, they are dead because his choice for the secret keeper and an assumed close and loyal friend betrayed them all. Now he has failed, to extract his revenge and his own brand of justice for Peter's betray of them all. Given all that, I think I would be hysterical with grief and guilt myself. Just a thought. bboy_mn From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Jun 9 09:11:42 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 05:11:42 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Purpose of the Weasleys (was; Saving every Sickle) Message-ID: <1f1.a815c33.2c15a94e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59623 In a message dated 6/9/2003 12:47:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, WFeuchter at msn.com writes: > Ron is the > >only Weasley we see fret openly or get weird about money - has > anyone else > >noticed this? > > I beg to differ, all the twins do is try to invent products that > they can sell to make money Yes - but they try to DO something about it - they don't just sit & whine & expect someone ELSE to do it for them. Which brings up the interesting question - will Ron find out the source of his brothers' new-found "wealth"? And if so, what will his reaction be? Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Calimora at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 06:10:49 2003 From: Calimora at yahoo.com (Renee Daniels) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 06:10:49 -0000 Subject: Ron, Harry, Molly, and MONEY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59624 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: Felinia Jesta Hijinx wrote: << Harry really *could* do more for the Weasleys if he put his mind to it. I find all this "pride" the embarrassing part, actually. He could send an occasional anonymous gift to one of the Weasleys, and opine that it must have come from Bill or Charlie; he could "accidently" spill a few Knuts or Sickles in Ron's room on one visit to be found on the next break. >> To which Rita Prince Winston replied: < Do you think Ron would have fallen for that? If he found money spilled on the floor of his room after Harry had been his guest there, he would have guessed it was Harry's and returned it to him, possibly with jabs about having so much money that one didn't notice some had gone missing. Where would Harry have learned about secret charity? Not in the Dursley home. I don't think from the kind of TV shows that Dursleys would watch. My Two Knuts: Call me juvinile, but I think it really is a matter of pride and Harry's respect for Ron that keeps both of them from offering/accepting money. There is a certain pride of accompishment in making it by yourself. And there is a particular shame in not being able to make it by yourself. To accept monies as prizes or scholarships awarded for accomplishment is one thing, but to be given money because you are a nember of a minority or because you are poor just hurts. It implies that you are not good enough to make it without handouts. And what hurts even more is when you have to accept it, because its true. Yes, a poverty grant may 'give me the chances I deserve' but i'd much rather have the chances I've personaly made and earned. That's why I like and respect Harry for *not* practicing 'quiet charity.' It's impossible to reject charity from freinds, and despite (or maybe because) of their freindship it creates a feeling of indebtedness. Afterall, true freinds are equals. Harry is inherently generous, and I think he'd give like mad if he thought it was really the right thing to do. But he doesn't. Droping Galleons around may be the easy way to solve Rons money problems, but it's not the best way. In the end Ron has to solve Ron's problems, and all Harry can do is help. In GoF Hermoine can accept the ominoculars as a spur-of-the-moment gift because she knows that had the situation been reversed she could have done the same (dentists tend to be pretty well off). Ron can't because he knows that he couldn't. Admittedly, Ron is overly money conscious, but in a way so are George and Fred, the only real difference is that Gred and Forge have direction. The 'charity' of 1000 galleons to the twins isn't really charity IMHO, it's part guilt, part investment, part fortification against the future, and it's 5 years of b-day and christmas presents to the pair of nearly brothers who gave him the Maraurder's Map. They gave him freedom of Hogwarts and a peice of his Father, he gave them what they needed to build their dream. Equals, remember? ~Calimora (The Prideful Lurker) *The bit with Ron and the dress robes isn't charity; it's self preservation.* From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 9 07:16:03 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 07:16:03 -0000 Subject: Names in goblet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59625 >> bboy_mn: I'm not sure what you are asking. The Goblet was 'hoodwinked' into believing there was a forth school. We, or at least I, believe it was an un-named school. > The Goblet believed there was a forth school, and Harry bacame that champion by default.>> The Sergeant Majorette says: This is something that really bothers me, and I have the sinking feeling that it is merely a plot hole; namely, how dumb does a magic object have to be to be fooled into thinking there could be a *fourth" entrant in a *tri*-wizard tournament? --JDR From brittneyheck at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 08:54:43 2003 From: brittneyheck at yahoo.com (Brittney Heck) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 01:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Death of Book 5 In-Reply-To: <20030604210742.36842.qmail@web80507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030609085443.68350.qmail@web20507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59626 Sally Unchester wrote: maybe Snape (DEFINITE Harry fan,TOUGH love!) One of the main characters, one of Harry's "fans" will die (not Ron or Hermione). The death will be "horrible to write." I have been wondering whether or not Snape would be the one to die. We know that he has been asked to resume a very dangerous position (possibly being a spy for Dumbledore, et al. We learn this at the end of GoF and we know that he was a spy before. It seems fitting to me that the situation might demonstrate some of the "good" (I shudder quote this word because I cannot currently think of one better though I don't care for the connotation) in Snape. Another thought occurred to me as I have been writing this post. Perhaps it will be Wormtail. He has been around since the first book (as Scabbers, mind) and he has been a bit of a main character (often mentioned throughout the series). My concern in both of these theories is the word "fan." Has anyone on the list been able to find the source (I recall a question in an earlier post about its validity). So, if they truly mean the traditional definition of the word fan, then that would put a hole in both of my theories. I would very much like to hear what other list members have to say. Brittney --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Jun 9 09:21:38 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 05:21:38 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Names in goblet Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59627 In a message dated 6/9/2003 5:18:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jdr0918 at hotmail.com writes: > This is something that really bothers me, and I have the sinking > feeling that it is merely a plot hole; namely, how dumb does a magic > object have to be to be fooled into thinking there could be a > *fourth" entrant in a *tri*-wizard tournament? > Perhaps those who started the tournament allowed for that in the original spell - realizing that the WW would grow, & new schools might be worthy of competing in the future? And "Moody" DOES say that it took "a really strong Confundus Charm..." Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Jun 9 09:26:10 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 05:26:10 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Death of Book 5 Message-ID: <25.39f8e398.2c15acb2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59628 In a message dated 6/9/2003 5:21:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, brittneyheck at yahoo.com writes: > I have been wondering whether or not Snape would be the one to die. We > know that he has been asked to resume a very dangerous position (possibly being > a spy for Dumbledore, et al. We learn this at the end of GoF and we know > that he was a spy before. It seems fitting to me that the situation might > demonstrate some of the "good" (I shudder quote this word because I cannot > currently think of one better though I don't care for the connotation) in Snape. While I am also unable to find any primary source for the "fan" quote, I DO have primary reference to JKR stating that we should "keep an eye on Snape" - "you'll find out why in Book 7." ("The Connection", National Public Radio, 12 Oct 1999) I'm leaning more & more toward Molly as the death that's "painful to write" - particularly since the death of JKR's own mother is relatively recent. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 9 06:13:44 2003 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 07:13:44 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Special Fan" - fact or fiction...and why was it painful to write References: <20030609042218.64853.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3EE42598.7020202@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59629 Rebecca Sylvester wrote: > Like you Kristen, I looked and looked for any reference to the "special > fan" of Harry Potter > <> > and have never found one. I do recall the interview where it was stated > that writing the death of this particular person was difficult to write > and my own personal theory agrees with your second theory > <> I think that it is someone that > JKR feels a special bond with, either because it reminds her of someone > from her own life or because he/she is close to a character based on > someone from her life. I am anxious to find out who it is, thus ending > the arguments, but I would love to hear other theorys. > > Thanks, > Rebecca > Digger writes: I think that the difficult death JKR had to write for OOP was Lily and/or James. I predict we will find out much more about their death scene, not just hear the sketchy details we have heard before. All the grisly details will be related, by Lily herself, to Harry, in the land of the dead. digger From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 12:25:29 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 05:25:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Purpose of the Weasleys (was; Saving every Sickle) In-Reply-To: <1f1.a815c33.2c15a94e@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030609122530.78460.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59630 --- Sherrie wrote: > Which brings up the interesting question - will > Ron find out the source of > his brothers' new-found "wealth"? And if so, > what will his reaction be? Lynn: That is an interesting question. We have already seen Ron's reaction to Harry being given the MM by Fred and George. He wasn't happy the map hadn't been given to him since they are his brothers. Now, how will he feel if and when he finds out Harry gave those winnings to the twins rather than to him, Harry's best friend? Ron did hear that Harry tried to give the money to Molly and she refused it. I wonder if Ron was thinking, offer it to me, offer it to me or if he would have had the same reaction as Molly. After all, the twins didn't want to accept the money at first and, I think, it was only when they realized he was serious about not wanting the money that they accepted it. I also think they will view the money as investment capital rather than a gift. I suppose the twins could lie and say that Bagman fnially paid up but I would assume they would hide it from the entire family just so their mom wouldn't confiscate the money. On the other hand, at this point they are 17, the legal age for wizards, so they no longer have to practice magic in private. At this stage it may be expected that they start having some independence that may not be open to Ron yet. And, again, they could declare that someone had invested in their store and say it was a silent partner, not giving up the name. I also wonder just how the twins will give the dress robes to Ron. What will they say, particularly if they don't bother getting new dress robes for themselves? I do think that Harry is well aware of the pride factor when it comes to money and the Weasleys. Canon says that Harry would gladly share his money with Weasleys but he knew they wouldn't accept it, proven when Molly declines the winnings. Things he may want to do for Ron, remembering his own needs while with the Dursleys, he doesn't do because of this. I think we see in his request to the twins to use part of the money to buy Ron new dress robes that when he finds an avenue to provide without hurting pride, he will take the opportunity. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au Mon Jun 9 12:26:28 2003 From: kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au (kenney) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 12:26:28 -0000 Subject: Dobby is all powerful and mighty, sir. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59631 Recently when reading Goblet, I came to wonder how those house elves scale the width, breadth and depth of Hogwarts, and then as I remembered, Dobby just snaps his fingers and disappears. The elves also make food disappear and reappear on tables above. Would this be considered forms of Apparition? Hermione constantly reminds Harry and Ron, normal Wizarding Apparition is simply not possible. (As read in "Hogwarts: A History,") If house elves can use Apparition, even though wizards cant inside Hogwarts, does this mean house elves are more powerful than we are lead to believe? And might even be utilised in the downfall of Voldemort? Remember Dobby did a better job at the attempted murder of Harry than Voldemort and he flung Lucius down a fleet of stairs! Just a thought >From the Key of Kenney: Who thinks that all this hype isn't good for a Harry Potter Fanatic From cindysphynx at comcast.net Mon Jun 9 13:17:35 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 13:17:35 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59632 You know, I'll bet there have been *thousands* of predictions on this list about what will happen in OoP. I've probably made dozens myself, some of them mutually exclusive. ;-) We've had polls about all sorts of predictions, too. Now that June 21 is just around the corner (Wow! -- We'll be reading OoP next weekend!), maybe it's time to get *serious* here. No more having a whole bunch of vague predictions to your name. Maybe it's time for a gut-check -- time for anyone who's willing to stand on just one OoP prediction to step forward. And not just any old prediction, either. Let's say you only get to make *one* prediction. And specificity counts. Sure, you could go with "Mrs. Figg will be the DADA teacher" if you like. Better, though, might be "Mrs. Figg will be the DADA teacher and will not get on well with McGonagall." Degree of difficulty counts, too. "Mrs. Figg will be the DADA teacher" is kind of easy, really. "Mrs. Figg will be the DADA teacher and the villian who betrays Dumbledore but is thwarted before she can kill Harry" is a real show-stopper, though. Size matters also. "Sirius will have his soul sucked out by a dementor" is big. "Snape will be tortured to death" is *huge.* "Harry will ride a broom" is, well . . . you know. ;-) But we also should have style points -- you have to explain whatever it is that makes your prediction rock-solid. After OoP, we can check out the predictions and see which ones were best. How can we decide which single prediction was best? Why, we can *argue* about it, of course. ;-) OK. Here goes. My single most rock-solid OoP prediction is that the Put-Outer will be the key to the protection on Privet Drive, and Dumbledore will explain this to Harry in the course of "telling him everything." As I've said many times, I think much is suspicious about the way Dumbledore lights the lamps in PS/SS. Way too much drama accompanies the simple act of extinguishing and igniting some street lamps. Dumbledore doesn't use a wand -- he uses a "Put-Outer," which is the single clunkiest name JKR chooses for any magical device. I think she chose that name to encourage us to assume that the "Put-Outer" is insignificant. Yup. I'm gonna bet the farm on the Put-Outer. Cindy From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 13:19:58 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 13:19:58 -0000 Subject: Dobby is all powerful and mighty, sir. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59633 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kenney" wrote: > If house elves can use Apparition, even though wizards cant inside > Hogwarts, does this mean house elves are more powerful than we are > lead to believe? I've always believed this to be the case. I think that's why they are so subservient. It's a balance of power thing. If Voldemort had the power of house elf, he could rule the world. But house elves are wise to the fact that such power, when used wrong,can cause great misery and suffering, so instead they channel it into a more constructive purposes. That's why they are so mortified by Hermiones suggestions. They're lives of servitude are a choice that they purposely made. That said, I would look for Winky to become a serious threat--she's powerful, she's free, and she has a very definite grudge against the boy who lived. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Jun 9 13:26:08 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 13:26:08 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59634 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." wrote: > > Now that June 21 is just around the corner (Wow! -- We'll be reading > OoP next weekend!), maybe it's time to get *serious* here. No more > having a whole bunch of vague predictions to your name. Maybe it's > time for a gut-check -- time for anyone who's willing to stand on > just one OoP prediction to step forward. My prediction is that it comes out that Neville witnessed his parents being tortured. Some death eaters put a memory charm on him, because he witnessed something very important about the attack of his parents. In OOP he will see Harry being tortured with the cruciatus curse by a Death Eater. This incident will bring back the memorys of the torture of his parents, because he has a d?j? vu while seeing a victim of the cruciatus curse. He already had this d?j? vu during "Moody's" lesson with the spiders, and that was why he reacted that odd during the lesson. But Crouch stopped the cursing of the spider, before Neville could remember. Hickengruendler From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 9 06:31:25 2003 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 07:31:25 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Cheating in the Third Task/ Harry's wand References: Message-ID: <3EE429BD.3010802@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59635 abadgerfan2 wrote: > > YOU'VE HIT ON IT!! My view is that Voldemort wanted to get rid of > Harry even as an infant because he has the blood lines of all four > Hogwarts founders, and as such can be a unifying force in a magic > world that Voldemort would rather divide and conquer!! Book five > should tell us more on this! > digger writes: Excellent! I like this very much. Or (slight theory modification) maybe Harry had three founders bloodlines, and V tried to kill him, but only suceeded in making it worse by accidently 'donating' Slytherin/Parselmouth powers in the process. This is good, mythically speaking ;-) From sfpeterso at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 12:45:08 2003 From: sfpeterso at yahoo.com (Scott Peterson) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 12:45:08 -0000 Subject: An introduction, Sirius Black, the four houses In-Reply-To: <20030609010125.9123.qmail@web20712.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59636 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melanie Bond wrote: > I have often wondered why Sirius would laugh about something like that. I remember when I first read POA and found out that Sirius was in fact good and did not murder all those people or betray James and Lily I immediatly called my best friend, Kathy explain my astonishment about this. The first thing that came out of my mouth was "But why was he sitting there lying as he sat there in front of all those dead people?" Kathy responded by telling me that maybe for a short time Sirius really did go psycho and unstable. She said if all that had happened to you in one night how would you react? The truth is I still do not know the answer to that question....I've never seen my best friend get killed, my god son taken away, and one of my friends murder 13 people and then blame me more it..so truth bet told I cannot tell you how I would act. However, this isn't about me it's about Sirius..and to be honest, I hadn't really about why Sirius laughed again until I found myself reading a except about it on the website. > Now me: I, like you, have been thinking a bit about Sirius lately. His behavior is a conundrum. 1) He and James are as close as brothers, you never saw one without the other (Rosmerta). If that is the case, why in the world would he transfer the secret keeper duty to Peter "the Worm" Petigrew? The only possible solution was that he knew LV would expect that of him, and come directly after him. It is almost as if he is afraid of this (which is contradiction #1 ? fear didn't seem part of his life previously). 2) Sirius is extremely angry and Wormtail, and tries to KILL him several times. He doesn't want to turn him over to the authorities (although that would appear to have cleared his name). Rather, he wants him DEAD. Is this the way a sane, good person would act? He seems almost hurt that Harry refuses to let them kill him. 3) In his attempt to get Wormtail, Sirius scares Ron nearly to death, and then drags his across a field, breaking his leg severely in the process. Nothing or nobody is going to stand in the way of the death he wishes to extract from Wormtail (Lupin even SUPPORTS this action). Sirius also becomes furious that the fat lady for not letting him in, and tears up her painting. This is stated several times that he isn't acting like an innocent man. Will Sirius kill others in order to get to Wormtail? In conclusion, I think Sirius has issues with his temper at the very least, and possibly has issues that are not resolved, or have not been published yet. JKR continues to pound the fact that it isn't our abilities, but our choices that define us. Given that, is it possible that Sirius, the cute puppy has made choices that will damage the ability of the Order of the Phoenix to reel in the Death Eaters? Scott From chesterr at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 03:51:32 2003 From: chesterr at yahoo.com (chesterr) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 03:51:32 -0000 Subject: best lines in the book? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59637 Hi I'm writing a piece for The Courier-Mail (daily newspaper in Brisbane, Australia) looking at the best sentences in the Harry Potter series. I have my own favourites (there's a line, and i'm quoting from memory because i don't have my book in front of me, in the first book in which Hagrid mentions he borrows the motorbike from Sirius Black - a reference you read over at first and only realise the significance in latter books) but am after nominations from fellow HP fans. cheers Rod Chester The Courier-Mail chesterr at qnp.newsltd.com.au chesterr at yahoo.com From gypseelynn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 04:38:34 2003 From: gypseelynn at yahoo.com (Rebecca Sylvester) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 21:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] NON-Spoiler Question... In-Reply-To: <002401c32dfa$b8c380c0$cb93253e@takun> Message-ID: <20030609043834.3128.qmail@web41511.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59638 Piper wrote: > I have a question about OotP, but it's not a spoiler.... > > I'm ordering from a small bookstore that orders the books from > Scholastic. Does Scholastic send the books early, so the stores keep them until the > day it goes for sale? How early are the books sent? Or do the books arrive > day-of or day-before? > Izaskun: >As far as I know, they're getting the books a little earlier, but they have >to sign a sort of contract, compromising to notopen the boxes till midnight. I can't answer for all book stores, however, I just stopped working for B & N bookstores, and I know that they were getting the books several days earlier. Izaskun was exactly right when he said <>, they swear to among other things, not open the books until midnight the 21st. Don't know if I helped at all or just repeated. Peace, Rebecca Mod note: This thread is great, and informative for everyone, but as it is no longer discussing the content of the books, please could everyone interested carry on over at OT-Chatter: groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/messages List-elf David From rhaberfield at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 9 15:20:40 2003 From: rhaberfield at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?robert=20haberfield?=) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 16:20:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] best lines in the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030609152040.70343.qmail@web41902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59639 chesterr wrote: Hi I'm writing a piece for The Courier-Mail (daily newspaper in Brisbane, Australia) looking at the best sentences in the Harry Potter series. I have my own favourites (there's a line, and i'm quoting from memory because i don't have my book in front of me, in the first book in which Hagrid mentions he borrows the motorbike from Sirius Black - a reference you read over at first and only realise the significance in latter books) but am after nominations from fellow HP fans. cheers Rod Chester The Courier-Mail chesterr at qnp.newsltd.com.au chesterr at yahoo.com My choice Book 1, CH 9, last page Robert the old (Bournemouth, UK) Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Zarleycat at aol.com Mon Jun 9 15:38:40 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 15:38:40 -0000 Subject: An introduction, Sirius Black, the four houses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59640 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Scott Peterson" wrote: Well, the character, and apparent contradictions of Sirius have been discussed before. I'm happy to rehash my thoughts, and toss in what others have postulated. > I, like you, have been thinking a bit about Sirius lately. His > behavior is a conundrum. > > 1) He and James are as close as brothers, you never saw one > without the other (Rosmerta). If that is the case, why in the world would he transfer the secret keeper duty to Peter "the Worm" > Petigrew? The only possible solution was that he knew LV would > expect that of him, and come directly after him. It is almost as if he is afraid of this (which is contradiction #1 ? fear didn't seem part of his life previously). My thought on this was that Sirius was setting himself up as a decoy. He says himself he was the obvious choice for Secret Keeper. So, instead, he turns it over to Peter and goes into hiding. The DEs would, hopefully, waste time and energy seeking Sirius out. Best case scenario 1: They never find him. End result: Sirius, Peter, James, Lily and Harry live. Best case scenario 2: The DEs find Sirius, torture him, he dies without revealing anything. Everyone but Sirius lives, and I believe, that's a trade-off Sirius would be willing to make. Would Sirius have cracked under torture? Well, for all we know he had experience as a DE toy at some point between his years at Hogwarts and his incarceration. So, yeah, he may have felt he could pull this off. Plus, every day the Potters were not found was a day bought for the fighters of Voldemort. > 2) Sirius is extremely angry and Wormtail, and tries to KILL him > several times. He doesn't want to turn him over to the authorities > (although that would appear to have cleared his name). Rather, he > wants him DEAD. Is this the way a sane, good person would act? He > seems almost hurt that Harry refuses to let them kill him. I don't think that Sirius was particularly sane in most of PoA. There have been discussions and disagreements on this list as to whether or not he was suffering from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. I'm no psychiatrist, so I'm not going to go into all that. However, I think that if you've spent 12 years undergoing isolation, malnutrition, and mental torture, you'd probably not emerge with all of the same facilities you had before all this happened. You may get those facilities back, but I don't know that anyone could bounce back quickly, particularly if this person is still without any sort of support system. Sure, Sirius acted in ways that were not the best. It makes perfect sense to me. > 3) In his attempt to get Wormtail, Sirius scares Ron nearly to > death, and then drags his across a field, breaking his leg severely > in the process. Nothing or nobody is going to stand in the way of > the death he wishes to extract from Wormtail (Lupin even SUPPORTS > this action). Sirius also becomes furious that the fat lady for not letting him in, and tears up her painting. This is stated several times that he isn't acting like an innocent man. Will Sirius kill others in order to get to Wormtail? Ah, here is where I'll give you an OoP prediction, which will neatly tie in with Dumbledore's stating that it's our choices that matter, that we have to do what's right, not necessarily what's easy. (Horrible paraphrase, but I'm sure you get the gist.) My prediction: That Sirius is in a situation where he can either capture Wormtail (thus going a long way to providing proof of his own innocence) or save Snape's life. And, I think he'll opt for saving Snape. > In conclusion, I think Sirius has issues with his temper at the very > least, and possibly has issues that are not resolved, or have not > been published yet. JKR continues to pound the fact that it isn't > our abilities, but our choices that define us. Given that, is it > possible that Sirius, the cute puppy has made choices that will > damage the ability of the Order of the Phoenix to reel in the Death > Eaters? Of course, he has issues. See my response to #2 above. And, that indicates some inconsistencies with his character, or perhaps, how JKR has written him, for some people on this list. Sirius shows a pretty even keel in GoF. We see none of the extreme behavior or burning anger that was evident in PoA. This strikes some folks as too rapid a recovery from the stresses of prison. Either Sirius is superbly resilient, or we're simply not witnesses to his continued irrational behavior, or he's locked up those feelings so tightly they'd almost have to explode out of him at some point. Marianne From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Mon Jun 9 15:57:18 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 15:57:18 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] An introduction, Sirius Black, the four houses Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59641 Hi Melanie: >When he is arrested, he is allegedly laughing. At least, that's what Fudge >and Stan Shunpike say. Sirius doesn't say anything about this in the Shack >(and when I asked him about it, he gave me That Look again). > >I have often wondered why Sirius would laugh about something like that. I >remember when I first read POA and found out that Sirius was in fact good >and did not murder all those people or betray James and Lily I immediatly >called my best friend, Kathy explain my astonishment about this. The first >thing that came out of my mouth was "But why was he sitting there lying as >he sat there in front of all those dead people?" Kathy responded by >telling me that maybe for a short time Sirius really did go psycho and >unstable. She said if all that had happened to you in one night how would >you react? The truth is I still do not know the answer to that >question....I've never seen my best friend get killed, my god son taken >away, and one of my friends murder 13 people and then blame me more it..so >truth bet told I cannot tell you how I would act. However, this isn't >about me it's about Sirius..and to be honest, I hadn't really about why >Sirius laughed again until I found myself reading a except about it on the >website. > >And I think that perhaps the mystery was possibly solved, at least for me. > Why was he laughing? Hysteria. Irony. There are a lot of people who respond in emotionally inappropriate ways to strong or unfamiliar emotions because of strange things that have happened to them growing up, or social conditioning - the few guys who always laugh when an airplane does something odd like blowing a tire on landing or hitting a severe air pocket in flight, the people who get mad in the face of strong grief - and probably Sirius is just one of those. I first of all doubt the solidity of Fudge and Stan Shunpike as witnesses, the one because of motives, the other because of ignorance; and secondly, I sincerely doubt that he was laughing with glee, happiness or triumph if he was laughing. I'll bet it was the hysterical laughter that in another person might have been a precursor to tears had time and circumstances allowed. I've *seen* that laughter, believe it or not, when my stepdad got a call to go clean up after a small plane wreck where his best friend had been the pilot, and my stepdad had urged him not to go because the weather was a little dicey that day. >snip< >He isn't affected by the dementors as badly as other prisoners; he believes >it is because he knew he was innocentan unhappy thought that the dementors >couldn't suck away from him. He also can still turn into Padfoot, whose >emotions are simpler than a human's, and the dementors think he is losing >his mind like everyone else, so they leave him alone. Relatively speaking. > >Now do not ask me why, but I can see Sirius being the type of person who >could laugh at the dementors, make jokes with guards, we all know that he >enjoyed reading the newspaper. In the books people were amazed by how >little it affected him..however, I Think that he was very much effected by >everything that happened to him...however, he is not the type of person who >would want people to think that they had gotten the best of him (that they >scared him or what not). That is why I think he laughed as Peter turned >into scabbers and went away, it was the only reaction he could give that >wouldn't make Peter think for one minute that he was scared, or hurt. If >he had done that Peter would have won...Sirius is not a very loosing type >of person I do not think he would ever let Peter win. > This I completely agree with. It would be going on the offensive to put the point out contact *out there* rather than in close to his true emotions. > >I am wondering what you guys think the reason the house is devided into >four distinct places, each with defining characteristics and traits *mind >you that most of the characters can be easily divided into more than one >house* I am inclined to think that in the end the most important clue to >what is going to happen in the books is the four houses. I believe that >the houses will each have to come together to defeat Voldemort once and for >all. However, obviously I am open to people who disagree with me. What do >you guys all think? > Hm. There *does* seem to be an odd division between the houses, more than a spirit of friendly rivalry necessary for games - the fact, as I've observed earlier, that they don't really seem to know the way to each others' common rooms, at least not as junior classmen. But I'm not really sure that the division runs *that* deep. I dunno. It's an interesting theory, but I don't see it as being the total Ultimate Solution Cheers, Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Mon Jun 9 16:02:53 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 16:02:53 +0000 Subject: Forms of Magic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59642 >Recently when reading Goblet, I came to wonder how those house elves >scale the width, breadth and depth of Hogwarts, and then as I >remembered, Dobby just snaps his fingers and disappears. The elves >also make food disappear and reappear on tables above. > >Would this be considered forms of Apparition? > One of the things I think we should bear in mind is that not everything we see around the kids in the WW is going to fall neatly into the categories that we've learned so far - remember, Harry is just learning about them as he gets older. I doubt that it's true Apparition and is probably called something else and operates slightly differently. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From cindysphynx at comcast.net Mon Jun 9 16:06:06 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 16:06:06 -0000 Subject: OoP SPOILER: Number of New Characters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59643 Hi, all, Here's a nugget that could lead to some interesting last-minute speculation. Supposedly, Jim Dale says he had to do 125 voices for the first four books, and the number will be up to 134 for OoP. http://www.the-leaky- cauldron.org/MTarchives/week_2003_06_08.html#002954 Hmmm. That's nine new voices. I wonder who they might be . . . Arabella Figg Mundungus Fletcher Mrs. Longbottom Mrs. Longbottom Dedalus Diddle Mr. Lestrange Real Moody Gah! I'm stuck. Who else could there be? Cindy From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Mon Jun 9 16:07:32 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 16:07:32 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magic Quill Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59644 Hi Gretchen, and welcome: >I've noted that several people have speculated if we will see items from >the >other three founders like Godric Gryffindor's sword. I don't' know if this >has been discussed before or note, but could the magic quill that writes >the >children's names down when their born be Rowena Ravenclaw's old quill? >Since her house is linked with unusually intelligence, this could make >sense >that she'd be the one to leave something to identify future magical >children. > I don't think the idea is crazy, Gretchen and others; but truthfully I'll be disappointed if JKR just operates on parity, and makes a magic relic for each house. :-) That's not meant to be harsh on you at all; just that copying everything for form's sake starts to make for boring writing. But, hey, it may happen in Book 7 if there's a big push for "all the houses to come together" - another concept I truly wish wouldn't happen, simply because I feel like the houses are all already part of Hogwarts, despite the presence of people like Malfoy. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From catherinemck at hotmail.com Mon Jun 9 16:14:26 2003 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 16:14:26 -0000 Subject: OoP SPOILER: Number of New Characters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59645 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." wrote: > Hi, all, > > Here's a nugget that could lead to some interesting last-minute > speculation. Supposedly, Jim Dale says he had to do 125 voices for > the first four books, and the number will be up to 134 for OoP. > > http://www.the-leaky- > cauldron.org/MTarchives/week_2003_06_08.html#002954 > > Hmmm. That's nine new voices. I wonder who they might be . . . > > Arabella Figg > Mundungus Fletcher > Mrs. Longbottom > Mrs. Longbottom > Dedalus Diddle > Mr. Lestrange > Real Moody > > Gah! I'm stuck. Who else could there be? > > Cindy _Mrs_ Lestrange, of course! She of the hooded eyes and regal air - I imagine her looking like a stereotypical dark-haired French actress. Wonder what she sounds like? (Other than aarrgh, gibber, dribble, scream) Narcissa Malfoy? Another woman, if Figg is not the DADA. Avery? Catherine McK (who would be holding her breath it were possible for two weeks) From catherinemck at hotmail.com Mon Jun 9 16:19:53 2003 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 16:19:53 -0000 Subject: Gilderoy Lockhart, Agent of Lord Voldemort? In-Reply-To: <00b101c32dfa$1295ffc0$2e560043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59646 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: > One thing that occured to me, rereading CoS, is that Lockhart's activities > could have had a darker rationale than helping him sell Lotsa Books. What > if he had a secondary purpose, namely, eliminating the very wizards and > witches who'd be the most useful to the Good Guys, before Lord Voldemort > came back? > > Think about it: He goes around finding wizards and witches who've > successfully battled Dark creatures---and destroys their memories. I don't > know if the Memory Charm would absolutely render someone amnesiac, but from > what he says in the outer part of the Chamber, I suspect so. And we know > that an amnesiac wizard or witch can't cast spells, or even remember that he > or she is magical; Gilderoy's amazed at magic after he Obliviates himself. > > Now, wouldn't this sort of thing be just the way to prepare the way for a > return of the Dark Lord? I mean, eliminating the very people the other side > would find the most useful would be something _I_ would think was a good > plan, and I don't doubt that for all his megalomania, Lord V. (or his > puppet-masters; remember my post earlier about how it's possible that Lord > V. is an unwitting front-man for people like Lucius Malfoy?) is smart enough > to think of it for himself. > > I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Lord V. hissing in OoP that "One > reason I hate Harry Potter is because, thanks to him, one of my best agents > is now a gibbering idiot in St. Mungo's!" > > I wonder what sort of acronym I can use for a theory that Gilderoy Lockhart > is Lord Voldemort's agent? I'll have to think... Intriguing! Plus it would explain why Lucius Malfoy starts making all those donations to St Mungo?s. It isn?t merely to gain political influence; he needs a way to overcome memory charms in order to get Lockhart back on board again (isn?t there a Lucius/Lockhart ship somewhere, oh dear). Like the idea of Voldie as unwitting tool ? maybe he?s the (ironic) Harry?s fan death of OoP, and Lucius becomes a much trickier villain in the 6th and 7th books (or not). Catherine McK From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Mon Jun 9 16:26:06 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 16:26:06 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron, Harry, Molly, and MONEY Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59647 >Felinia Jesta Hijinx wrote: ><< Harry really *could* do more for the Weasleys if he put his mind >to it. I find all this "pride" the embarrassing part, actually. He >could send an occasional anonymous gift to one of the Weasleys, and >opine that it must have come from Bill or Charlie; he >could "accidently" spill a few Knuts or Sickles in Ron's room on one >visit to be found on the next break. >> > >That's why I like and respect Harry for *not* practicing 'quiet >charity.' It's impossible to reject charity from freinds, and despite >(or maybe because) of their freindship it creates a feeling of >indebtedness. Afterall, true freinds are equals. > >Harry is inherently generous, and I think he'd give like mad if he >thought it was really the right thing to do. But he doesn't. Droping >Galleons around may be the easy way to solve Rons money problems, but >it's not the best way. In the end Ron has to solve Ron's problems, >and all Harry can do is help. > >snip a lot of stuff from Calimora and Rita< Hi ladies: With utmost respect - you are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, I completely disagree with you both that there's *anything* "right" in Harry allowing his friend to continue to squirm in the grips of something that obviously causes him great emotional pain and embarrassment. I heartily support practicing charity when it is within your means to do so, and accepting with grace when it is offered - that goes back to that yin and yang of life thing - because it may fall to your lot with the next turn of the wheel to extend charity to someone else. Nobody's talking about Harry "solving all of Ron's money problems", or even the Weasleys' - I never said nor suggested that. I'm mostly thinking in terms of the little incidents I have cited as support - the buying of treats on the train the first day (see, Harry thought of a gracious way to say "I bought all this, help me eat it all!") and the Omnioculars. It's not that Ron's stupid, but who hasn't found three more knuts in a pants pocket than they thought they had? It's not enough to fix the robes or the second hand books, but it *might* be enough for a butterbeer or a handful of sweets when they go into Hogsmeade. Sometimes, it's all about the little things. Heck - in the grip of coffee, my mind is racing, and I'd like to challenge folks to think of little ways that Harry might aid Ron, *regardless of whether they agree about pride or charity or what-not*, as a creative exercise. Here's one: Harry could "ruin" one of Ron's rattiest schoolbooks by a spill or a misfired spell, and insist on replacing it, and get a newer one. Ron could hardly deny that, brought on by Harry's clumsiness. ;-) Felinia P.S. - In case folks haven't guessed, one of the principles of an organization I belong to with which I spend a lot of time is "give and receive with grace". I'm a firm believer in both parts of that; sometimes it's better to accept people's help with grace and not make them feel bad for offering simply because it's a mitzvah they need to do for their own soul. It doesn't make you a bad person or a weakling; the whole idea is just to try to help them out when your turn comes, or someone else if they're not alone. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jodel at aol.com Mon Jun 9 16:26:16 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 12:26:16 EDT Subject: "a hunderd years" Message-ID: <103.2fdfc401.2c160f28@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59648 << ...murdered by the most feared Dark wizard for a hundred years, Lord Voldemort." Wait, a hundred years? Isn't he in his 60s now? >> Yup. We're *all* missing a piece of information here. Evidently there was a Dark wizard problem around the end of the 19th century who set a standard, and Grindlewald, for all fanon's efforts, simply did not measure up. We have yet to hear anything regarding this earlier problem, and I very much suspect that Rowling will not ever come out and tell us, either. -JOdel (who thinks that the Grindlewald affair was a flash in the pan) From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Jun 9 16:26:56 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 16:26:56 -0000 Subject: OoP SPOILER: Number of New Characters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59649 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catherinemckiernan" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." wrote: > > Real Moody > > > > Gah! I'm stuck. Who else could there be? > > > > _Mrs_ Lestrange, of course! She of the hooded eyes and regal air - I > imagine her looking like a stereotypical dark-haired French actress. > Wonder what she sounds like? (Other than aarrgh, gibber, dribble, scream) > Narcissa Malfoy? > Avery? > > Catherine McK (who would be holding her breath it were possible for > two weeks) Narcissa Malfoy was at the Quidditch-Cuo. So she is not new. But while writing this, I just realised, that I am not sure if she said anything. Avery, however, had already a voice during the meeting of the Death Eaters after Voldemorts return. If Mrs Lestrange was the woman from the pensieve trial (which is IMO highly likely), she, too, had already a voice. Real Mad Eye Moody was also at the pensieve trials and made some comments, besides, I think that the impostor had the same voice as him. Hickengruendler From cindysphynx at comcast.net Mon Jun 9 16:28:12 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 16:28:12 -0000 Subject: OoP SPOILER: Number of New Characters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59650 Catherine wrote: > > Arabella Figg > > Mundungus Fletcher > > Mrs. Longbottom > > Mrs. Longbottom > > Dedalus Diddle > > Mr. Lestrange > > Real Moody > _Mrs_ Lestrange, of course! I thought of her, but she has lines in GoF in the Pensieve. > Narcissa Malfoy? Ah, yes. Maybe, but I personally hope not. I'd be happy if OoP were largely Malfoy-free, myself. > Avery? He has a line in the graveyard scene, as well as one heck of a good scream. I forgot Hagrid's mum, though. So I guess that's 8 possibilities right there. The Grey Lady, maybe? Cindy -- who thinks Real Moody shouldn't count because it should be the exact same voice as fake Moody From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Mon Jun 9 16:34:34 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 16:34:34 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Purpose of the Weasleys (was; Saving every Sickle) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59651 Good morning, Rhianyn: My kitty, Ashley, greets you. :-) >In a message dated 6/8/2003 12:16:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >jestahijinx at hotmail.com writes: > > > Fred and George do have solid, concrete plans for what they're going to >do > > for a living once they leave Hogwarts > >RhianynTheCat stretches luxuirously 'pon her velvet chair and says: > >Fred and George are certainly concerned enough about money and the lack >thereof to have plans and schemes to try to get their hands on some. They >wager >all they've managed to save on the Quidditch World Cup in an attempt to >parlay >their earning. They have a real cottage industry going at Hogwarts with >their >sweets. P'raps that's why we don't catch them whining 'bout their robes >... >they're busy trying to do something to remedy the situation. > Yes, my underlying thought exactly, but you put it much better. :-) they've caught on that they're going to have to make it on their own if they don't want to be stuck at home under Mum's thumb, perhaps with Dad "helpfully" getting them some sort of low level MoM job (since their grades probably won't cut a more advanced entry - just theorizing here that that matters). Plus, these are their interests - and maybe another part of it is that they don't want to be separated as twins; they want to keep their evil geniuses together. So it so happens that their interests lead them to tinker and experiment - much as in our world computer geeks might band together and tinker with spare CPUs and parts and invent a new application package or OS - and it's evolved into a plan. They had a somewhat hare-brained scheme for coming up with the starting cash, but they knew they couldnt' ask Mom and Dad for it. They're much more risk takers than most of their siblings seem to be. They'll probably make outstanding entrepreneurs; they know their market and have been basically beta-testing for seven years now. :-) ><well >in >school despite any obstacles of poverty. Maybe it makes him strive harder >to prove himself. >Felinia>> > >You make an interesting point (well, p'raps the point I read is not exactly >the one you intended, if so, apols :) that each of the Weasleys deals >differently with the money situations, but it does affect them all to the >point that it >shapes their characters in significant ways. George and Fred become >entrepenurial. Percy strives to excel first in school, then in beurocracy >(I think, >for example, that what drives Hermione to excel is different that what >drives >Percy ... same result, very different motivation and p'raps very big >differences in what they would do to excel). Molly obviously takes pride >in her >handiness and craftiness in making things. P'raps the reason Arthur has >such a >fascination wit Muggles is that he identifies with them as "underdogs". I >think >the care that JKR puts into the motivation of her characters is a big part >of >her brilliance. And I think the fact that she is taking such care with the >whole money angle supports my current pet theory that before the series is >done >Ron will inadvertently sell Harry out for some time of monetary gain >(either >actual or promised). Now, it obviously wouldn't be as straightforward as >"I'll >give you 13 Galleons to betray Harry" but might be something as insiduous >as a >hair from Harry's head for a supposedly smitten girl who is actually one of >Voldemorts agents trying to make a polyjuice potion. He will, of course, >repent >but I'm wondering if he doesn't bring about the death that's so darkly >forewarned. > No, you've got the point - that's my point exactly. There are different ways of dealing with it. And I think your theory is a good one; I think the reason that Ron's unhappiness with the familial monetary situation is being played up is that there will be a pivotal plot point based on that - maybe Ron accepts a dicey part-time job or something like that in his final year from a shady character in Hogsmeade. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 16:35:20 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 09:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron, Harry, Molly, and MONEY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030609163520.90859.qmail@web20009.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59652 --- Jesta Hijinx wrote: > I heartily support practicing charity when it is > within your means to do so, > and accepting with grace when it is offered - that > goes back to that yin and > yang of life thing - because it may fall to your lot > with the next turn of > the wheel to extend charity to someone else. > I think it would be fine for Harry to be charitable - if the Weasley's agreed to accept it. But forcing it on them is not right. They have the right to make a choice regarding whether or not to accept charity. And I believe their position would be that they do not need charity. They have food and clothes and books - even if the clothes and books are old. They would probably tell Harry that his money would be better spent on people who really needed it. Maybe Harry should offer - but he already knows their answer and would only end up making everyone uncomfortable. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Mon Jun 9 16:36:07 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 12:36:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP SPOILER: Number of New Characters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030609163607.80364.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59653 Ah, but Cindy, some of the GoF voices won't repeat. Barty Crouch Jr. for example What we need to do is list all 125 voices for GoF, identify which ones are definitely repeating, which ones definitely won't, and find out how much room we have for new voices/possible repeats from previous books. This, of course, will be a worthy and useful effort, for which future generations shall thank us. By the way, add Lupin to the list of new voices. He wasn't in GoF. Eileen --- "Cindy C." wrote: > Hi, all, > > Here's a nugget that could lead to some interesting > last-minute > speculation. Supposedly, Jim Dale says he had to do > 125 voices for > the first four books, and the number will be up to > 134 for OoP. > > http://www.the-leaky- > cauldron.org/MTarchives/week_2003_06_08.html#002954 > > Hmmm. That's nine new voices. I wonder who they > might be . . . > > Arabella Figg > Mundungus Fletcher > Mrs. Longbottom > Mrs. Longbottom > Dedalus Diddle > Mr. Lestrange > Real Moody > > Gah! I'm stuck. Who else could there be? > > Cindy > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the > group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to > snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're > replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website > etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to > HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to > HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf > or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- > HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just > the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribing? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Jun 9 16:37:25 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 16:37:25 -0000 Subject: OoP SPOILER: Number of New Characters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59654 I just thought about something. If these characters weren't in GoF, that doesn't necessary mean, they are new, does it? Lupin, for example, wasn't in GoF, yet is supposed to return in OOP. On the other hand, it's highly unlikely that every character from GoF will return in OOP, so maybe the number of new characters might still be around 9. Hickengruendler From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Mon Jun 9 16:38:24 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 16:38:24 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Purpose of the Weasleys (was; Saving every Sickle) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59655 > > Ron is the > > >only Weasley we see fret openly or get weird about money - has > > anyone else > > >noticed this? > > > > I beg to differ, all the twins do is try to invent products that > > they can sell to make money > >Yes - but they try to DO something about it - they don't just sit & whine & >expect someone ELSE to do it for them. > >Which brings up the interesting question - will Ron find out the source of >his brothers' new-found "wealth"? And if so, what will his reaction be? > The way that it was written...coming right at the end...I'd say...hm, no. My main question is, how are the twins going to explain where they've gotten their nest egg to their family? I can see them telling small white lies to cover their tracks at times, or lying by omission...but honestly, not a big whopper over this amount of money. Does anyone besides me think they might request a private audience with their parents, tell them what's happened, firmly insist that they are keeping the money because none of the principals want it, and ask them to keep it secret from the rest of the family? I can't see either Arthur or Molly being easy with this; but I also think that they're shrewd enough to know that the twins couldn't get such a windfall from an anonymous investor or save it up themselves from advance sales. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From brittneyheck at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 09:46:03 2003 From: brittneyheck at yahoo.com (Brittney Heck) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 02:46:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] An introduction, Sirius Black, the four houses In-Reply-To: <20030609010125.9123.qmail@web20712.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030609094603.1721.qmail@web20514.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59656 Melanie Bond wrote: <> I think that the reason Sirius laughed was at the absurdity of the whole situation. Haven't you ever heard the phrase that if you laugh so that you don't cry? I think that laughing was the only way he could cope. I mean, here Sirius is, going in to avenge his friends and thinking this should be an easy victory and he manages to go from what he perceives as being almost the hero for avenging James and Lily to being accused of murdering 13 people AND betraying the very people he had gone to avenge AND thrown into Azkaban for life. Hell, I would have laughed too. Talk about a shocker there. I just think that he had no other choice then to look at his plight and just laugh, because what else was there to do. Brittney --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Mon Jun 9 16:46:19 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 16:46:19 +0000 Subject: The Twins and the Prize Money Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59657 >That is an interesting question. We have already >seen Ron's reaction to Harry being given the MM >by Fred and George. He wasn't happy the map >hadn't been given to him since they are his >brothers. Now, how will he feel if and when he >finds out Harry gave those winnings to the twins >rather than to him, Harry's best friend? Ron did >hear that Harry tried to give the money to Molly >and she refused it. I wonder if Ron was >thinking, offer it to me, offer it to me or if he >would have had the same reaction as Molly. After >all, the twins didn't want to accept the money at >first and, I think, it was only when they >realized he was serious about not wanting the >money that they accepted it. I also think they >will view the money as investment capital rather >than a gift. > They may well view it that way. Hm. I just made a post about this; I've amended my thinking on readin this. The twins may well tell the family Harry gave them the money as investment capital. The Weasleys *know* about his bank vault; they may wellr emonstrate with him on taking a chance with the twins, but they wouldn't question where it came from, since they'd be too polite to inquire about the actual extent of his wealth. >I suppose the twins could lie and say that Bagman >fnially paid up but I would assume they would >hide it from the entire family just so their mom >wouldn't confiscate the money. On the other >hand, at this point they are 17, the legal age >for wizards, so they no longer have to practice >magic in private. At this stage it may be >expected that they start having some independence >that may not be open to Ron yet. And, again, >they could declare that someone had invested in >their store and say it was a silent partner, not >giving up the name. > That could also be, although I wonder that Molly would not be suspicious, especially if she found out the amount. >I also wonder just how the twins will give the >dress robes to Ron. What will they say, >particularly if they don't bother getting new >dress robes for themselves? > Well, theyr'e out of school now = and opening a joke shop may not take them to many fancy occasions. I suspect dress robes are like a tux or a very formal suit - they may not need them now in their current line of work. I suspect that they would present the robes, say they'd won them in a game of chance or something like that, and he'd better suck it up and not grumble because whatever it was, it was better than what he had had before. >I do think that Harry is well aware of the pride >factor when it comes to money and the Weasleys. >Canon says that Harry would gladly share his >money with Weasleys but he knew they wouldn't >accept it, proven when Molly declines the >winnings. Things he may want to do for Ron, >remembering his own needs while with the >Dursleys, he doesn't do because of this. I think >we see in his request to the twins to use part of >the money to buy Ron new dress robes that when he >finds an avenue to provide without hurting pride, >he will take the opportunity. > I agree with the last about finding an avenue to provide without hurting pride; and I know this is what canon says. Thanks for that last sentence, Lynn. I'm not picking on you in particular when I say this next, because I think your response was, if anything, a little more balanced, reasoned and fair than many. But I've just had to wade through a bunch that I felt obliquely attacked my values, which I express with some vigor WRT HP - and I'd like to state that I hold firm to my values of believing in giving and receiving charity and generosity with grace, offering the chance to the souls of others to do good deeds, and I have no intention of relinquishing them - with respect - to those of others who feel that pride is a virtue. (I was raised that pride is rather the opposite, but that's just me.) Even if that's what JKR writes. :-) I'm keeping firmly in mind that it's a textual device as we are discussing it here. Cheers, Felinia _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 14:28:44 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Bond) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 07:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mela's predication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030609142844.73002.qmail@web20706.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59658 Cindy, What a creative topic that you made. Wow next week Order of the Pheonix, I'm soo excited and nervous I can hardly talk about it. My one prediction is that a little love triangle will insue between Harry/Hermione/Ron. My main reason for believing this is that I think Ron is starting to see Hermione in a new light and that he may develop a crush on her if you will. However, I think that he will not be brave enough to admit that to Hermione. Thus, he will start to get jealous of Harry and Hermione's relationship, even if there isn't one, Ron will start to interpret interactions between the tow of them as such. This will help to create even more conflict between Ron and Harry, and perhaps even cause problems on the Quidditch feild. Well there you have it, my prediction...take it as you will... ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 14:39:10 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Bond) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 07:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: An introduction, Sirius Black, the four houses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030609143910.56681.qmail@web20709.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59659 Scott Wrote: 1) He and James are as close as brothers, you never saw one without the other (Rosmerta). If that is the case, why in the world would he transfer the secret keeper duty to Peter "the Worm" Petigrew? The only possible solution was that he knew LV would expect that of him, and come directly after him. It is almost as if he is afraid of this (which is contradiction #1 ? fear didn't seem part of his life previously). 2) Sirius is extremely angry and Wormtail, and tries to KILL him several times. He doesn't want to turn him over to the authorities (although that would appear to have cleared his name). Rather, he wants him DEAD. Is this the way a sane, good person would act? He seems almost hurt that Harry refuses to let them kill him. I'm not going to try and estimate what JKR has in store for Sirius or his probability of becoming a "bad" or "good" character. However, you did bring up some very good points. One thing that is clear to me when I read the books is that Sirius is very much like Ron. They are both irrational, passionate, actors rather than thinkers. They also would stop at nothing to protect and seek revenge for those who have harmed their loved ones. Anyways it was just a little parallel that I noticed and wanted to point out...:) ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tminton at deckerjones.com Mon Jun 9 15:00:01 2003 From: tminton at deckerjones.com (Tonya Minton) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 10:00:01 -0500 Subject: SS Voldamort question Message-ID: <8D5AD53268720840968E25CB71EC7CAE976A@djmail.deckerjones.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59660 HI all, Something occured to me this last time of re-reading SS. At the end, Voldy is inside Quirrell and he dies because Voldy leaves his body. So how did Vodly get out of Hogwarts castle and grounds?? Was he a spirit?? therefore walked out?? Don't you think that DD would have wanted/tried to catch him?? SOOO what if DD is on the dark side?? Did he actually help Voldy escape?? While he was saving Harry?? New question: What about Snape?? in SS Voldy was close to Snape being inside Quirell and all, so why didn't they talk to each other?? Wouldn't you think that Voldy still thinks that Snape is faithful DE?? Why not have him help Quirrell in trying to get the stone?? But no, Snape is seen helping keep the stone safe, helping Harry, muttering a counter curse.......I just cannot buy the fact that Voldy is too dumb to know that Snape has turned away from the dark side, OR has he??? Tonya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From anne_conda at web.de Mon Jun 9 15:06:13 2003 From: anne_conda at web.de (Anne) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 15:06:13 -0000 Subject: SHIP:what hermione`s hiding+ MOM protection+ Fluffy creation Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59661 Cheers! Could it bear some implication, that Rons name happens to be hidden in ?heRmiONe"? Just curious and a bit alarmed, since I`m used to be a trusty H/Hr- shipper. Please pardon the phew-phew-grammar and the deficient reasoning, but 34?C plus causing a German sunstroke ought absolve me from a accurate use of English, don`t you think (please do)? .annie (sun)burned like a phoenix. (without an outlook to be as good as new afterwards, pity) By the way: what assures relatives of wizards/ witches don`t blab out on the WW? We know perfectly well that the MoM casts a very close eye on their wizards and forbids stuff such as bewitching Muggle artefacts but how can they guarantee no Muggle will slip a wrong word? HOW do they control? ( weird. I bet some certain historical supervisions would have been grateful for some MoM- tricks) Oh, hang on- some time ago there was a debate about Colonel Fubster being a wizard. Could it be likely HE "created" Fluffy out of frustration for Aunt Marge and her nasty dogs? I know that`s really far fetched but still . Erm what HAPPENED to Fluffy at all? He`s not still caged in a certain room in Hogwarts, is he? Poor puppy (if *I* had three heads ? three *mouths*, that is- and would be locked up with me it would drive me insane, that`s for sure and it would have been definitely more shocking than Fluffy, you know)! "Anne" From karen.lyall at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Jun 9 16:18:35 2003 From: karen.lyall at blueyonder.co.uk (karenlyall666) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 16:18:35 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black at Godrics Hollow Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59662 Hi I'm new so please be kind... POA UK P153 Hagrid states that he was the one to rescue Harry from the ruins of the Potter family home (this we already knew from PS/SS), but what I don't understand is - How could Sirius Black have turned up 'just' after Voldemoarts attack if he, SB, wasn't the POtters secret keeper. It wouldn't make sense to have someone as the secret keeper, if every one of their other friends knew where to find them! Would it?? I never questioned this before but as I am doing the re-read before 21st June it struck me. The house at Godrics Hollow can't have always been the POtter residence as all would know where they were... Did the POtter family move in to the house when PP was given the details as secret keeper - or am I really missing something here? Please help, I don't want to be confused by previous books when I read OOtP... Thanks Karen I really sorry this kinda rambled more than I intended... From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Mon Jun 9 16:51:25 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 16:51:25 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Purpose of the Weasleys (was; Saving every Sickle) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59663 >I beg to differ, all the twins do is try to invent products that >they can sell to make money > >Bill > Actually, I'd say that they're more indulging a natural taste they have for jokes, being creative and testing their wares on their peers, and essentially doing something constructive toward their own futures. They also enjoy life, and are good Quidditch players - so they do something besides invent joke products. They don't complain - in fact, I forget whether it's Fred or George who makes the oblique reference to the books needed for second year not coming cheap, but they do it in a sensitive way (for them) that shows that they're concerned about their mom's worries over the family budget. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From siskiou at earthlink.net Mon Jun 9 16:53:20 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 09:53:20 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Twins and the Prize Money In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14452396151.20030609095320@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 59664 Hi, Monday, June 09, 2003, 9:46:19 AM, Jesta wrote: > Well, theyr'e out of school now They are? I thought they were only in 6th year in GoF, hence they had to try to sneak their name into the goblet, instead of being eligible. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 17:06:26 2003 From: shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com (viewsonpotter) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 17:06:26 -0000 Subject: best lines in the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59665 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "chesterr" wrote: > Hi > I'm writing a piece for The Courier-Mail (daily newspaper in > Brisbane, Australia) looking at the best sentences in the Harry > Potter series. ...am after nominations from > fellow HP fans. Hi Rod Easy... 'it is our choices far more than our abilities that show who we truley are' CoS Shaggy From innermurk at catlover.com Mon Jun 9 17:08:29 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 17:08:29 -0000 Subject: Connection between Voldemort and Fawkes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59666 Bobby theorized earlier: > > > Assuming these theories to be the most plausible and widely > > held... how in the heck did Riddle/Voldemort choose a wand from > > Fawkes? Or rather (as Ollivander might say), why did a wand > > containing a feather from Fawkes choose Riddle? Especially if > Fawkes > > is inextricably tied to Gryffindor... it seems odd that the heir of > > Slytherin would be destined for that wand. It's easy to see how > > Harry would be destined for the brother wand for a variety of > > reasons... if he is related to Godric, or from his connection with > > Voldie from the curse that failed, etc... but Riddle/Voldemort was > > the original one to choose the Fawkes wand. I think JKR loves the > > idea of fate and I figure that she must have a reason why the heir > > of Slytherin was destined for Fawkes' wand. Maybe Fawkes is not > tied > > to Gryffindor... I don't know. Any thoughts? > Kristen added: > Great point! The wand chooses the wizard, you know. Perhaps this > wand also had some lessons on Divination and could see what was > coming. Another possibility is when Dumbledore tells Harry the > powers of the phoenix - that they are very loyal. Could it be that > the feather in the wand core retained that loyalty to DD and chose > Voldemort for the sheer purpose of providing a defense in the > future? At the time Tom Riddle chose his wand, we don't know if he > was evil yet though he implies that he had evil tendencies very early > on when talking to Harry in the Chamber of Secrets. Empirically, he > is Slytherin's heir, so maybe the wand picked up on that. > > Since OoP appears to be about the powers of the phoenix, I hope we > find out very soon! I suspect this will be another barrier LV will > get past once he realizes what caused the priori incantatem. > I innermurk would like to point out: Dumbledore has told us that it is NOT what we are born but what we CHOOSE that's important (of course that's not a direct quote and he says it many times in different ways, most prevelantly in COS, but also GOF). Voldemort was born Tom Riddle. We don't really know a lot about his parents, but we do know that he is a powerful wizard. Tom had an unfortunate childhood not unlike Harry, but he CHOSE to become Voldemort (evil). Harry was born to powerful parents, and he had a bad childhood as well. We've had several indications that Harry is also (or will become) a powerful wizard. Harry has CHOSEN to fight on the good side. Perhaps it's as simple as this: Fawkes' feathers are powerful magic and they need a powerful wizard to control them. Tom Riddle could've become a powerful force for good, but he didn't choose to. Harry could've become a powerful force for evil, but he didn't choose to. Innermurk From morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 17:16:25 2003 From: morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com (Morgan D.) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 10:16:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: <1055167242.2199.33750.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030609171625.38218.qmail@web11003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59667 Cindy C. proposed: > Now that June 21 is just around the corner (Wow! -- We'll be reading > OoP next weekend!), maybe it's time to get *serious* here. No more > having a whole bunch of vague predictions to your name. Maybe it's > time for a gut-check -- time for anyone who's willing to stand on > just one OoP prediction to step forward. And Morgan D. now replies: I have about a dozen rock-solid yet predictions, but those wouldn't be fun for the purposes of this game. So let's take some chances here. Okay... *breathes deeply* ...I'm putting my purse of Galleons on the tragic demise of Dennis Creevey, which will lead his brother Colin to blame Harry for it. Why? Well, my first thought when Dennis showed up at Hogwarts was, "too many Creeveys; the cutest will die". And there are far too many apparently unnecessary mentions of Dennis' presence in GoF, and he's always so cutely small and cutely cheerful. Also, Colin's worshipping of Harry strikes me as something that is being prepared to be a major plot device in the future. Morgan D. Hogwarts Letters - http://www.hogwartsletters.hpg.com.br __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Mon Jun 9 17:17:59 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:17:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Eileen's *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction - Lupin Dies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030609171759.65499.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59668 --- "Cindy C." wrote: > Maybe it's > time for a gut-check -- time for anyone who's > willing to stand on > just one OoP prediction to step forward. > > And not just any old prediction, either. Let's say > you only get to > make *one* prediction. And specificity counts. Unfogging the future, I foresee that Lupin will die by the last page of OotP. First of all, I've always had Lupin on my to-die list, from first meeting him in PoA. People who are tired die. It's a literary convention. It has to do with the thematic intertwining of sleep and death. For a classic example of the conflation, check out Shakespeare's Hamlet in which, Hamlet, considering suicide, says, "To sleep. Perchance to dream. Aye there's the rub. For in that sleep, what dreams may come?" Hamlet, of course, after expressing that he wishes his "too solid flesh would melt" does die. In this, Hamlet is not alone. Notice the fate of Theoden in Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings." Theoden is revived from decrepit inertia by Gandalf's intervention, but he still is tired, drained by years of ruling his country, and the recent loss of his son. He thanks Gandalf, saying that now he can sleep better. Not surprisingly, he ends up dead. But you don't need to express a wish to die to die. You just need to be weary. Look at Andrey Bolkonsky in "War and Peace." After having a lot of undeserved trouble with the women in his life, Andrey has nothing left for him (except to duel another character). He is continually described as weary. So he tragically dies, of course. And so do a lot of people in Charles Dickens's "Bleak House." You can't see the ground for all the worn-out people dying in that book. Worn-out people, rejected by society, with nothing to live for anymore. Sound familiar? So, now that we've estabished that Lupin qualifies under the "darkling I listen, and for many a time, I have been half in love with easeful death" category, is there anything specifically to indicate that Lupin is Ever So Dead? Well yes. Lupin's paternal role has been usurped by Sirius BlacK, remember? And Hagrid's got the prejudiced-against-minority angle covered. And while Hagrid's a tempting choice to off, he's got something to do with the giants. And besides, JKR, despite Cindy's protests, thinks Hagrid is funny. No, Hagrid shall not die. The obvious choice, if we're going to get any unbearable sacrifice out of this book, is Lupin. Everyone else has continuing roles. Lupin is, sad to say, expendable. Yep, Lupin will die. This prediction, however, isn't spectacular enough. Let me add something to it. Lupin is going to die because of a choice of Harry's. That's what unbearable sacrifice means. That's where we'll get self-doubting, bangsting Harry. Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From andie at knownet.net Mon Jun 9 17:20:10 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 17:20:10 -0000 Subject: best lines in the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59669 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "chesterr" wrote: > Hi > I'm writing a piece for The Courier-Mail (daily newspaper in > Brisbane, Australia) looking at the best sentences in the Harry > Potter series. I have my own favourites (there's a line, and i'm > quoting from memory because i don't have my book in front of me, in > the first book in which Hagrid mentions he borrows the motorbike from > Sirius Black - a reference you read over at first and only realise > the significance in latter books) but am after nominations from > fellow HP fans. > cheers > Rod Chester > The Courier-Mail > chesterr at q... > chesterr at y... It's so hard to narrow down to just one favorite line, but certainly in PoA when Sirius is about to take off on Buckbeak, he tells Harry... "You are truly your father's son, Harry." grindieloe From morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 17:33:59 2003 From: morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com (Morgan D.) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 10:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP SPOILER: Number of New Characters In-Reply-To: <1055177438.12399.10778.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030609173359.34715.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59670 Cindy C. listed what could be the "new" characters in OotP: > Arabella Figg > Mundungus Fletcher > Mrs. Longbottom > Mrs. Longbottom > Dedalus Diddle > Mr. Lestrange > Real Moody > > Gah! I'm stuck. Who else could there be? And now Morgan D. adds: I was expecting Fridwulfa to make an appearance. (new character) I was also expecting to see the Grangers (Hermione's parents) actually have some dialogue lines for a change (old characters that never spoke in previous books, so Jim Dale probably wasn't counting them when he gave the numbers for GoF). And I'm obviously expecting Remus to be back (old character that wasn't in GoF, so Dale shouldn't have counted him either). Does that help any? Morgan D. Hogwarts Letters - http://www.hogwartsletters.hpg.com.br __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From ultimatesen at aol.com Mon Jun 9 17:40:43 2003 From: ultimatesen at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 17:40:43 -0000 Subject: An introduction, Sirius Black, the four houses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59671 Felinia: Why was he laughing? Hysteria. Irony. There are a lot of people who respond in emotionally inappropriate ways to strong or unfamiliar emotions because of strange things that have happened to them growing up, or social conditioning - the few guys who always laugh when an airplane does something odd like blowing a tire on landing or hitting a severe air pocket in flight, the people who get mad in the face of strong grief - and probably Sirius is just one of those. Me: I tend to agree here. I don't believe it was mentioned about the *type* of laughter it was. Bitter laughter is what I thought it was which ties in with the irony card. I also think seeing your friends of yours which are like family to you killed and feeling the whole plan to keep that from happening has gone down the toilet at lightning speed would tend to drive you a bit insane. I think Sirius related the Potters and his crew to being a family of sorts. When I first read PoA, I did get the picture painted in my head that Sirius was laughing like a loon. Ok. I don't remember exactly *who* came up with the idea to switch Sk's at the last minute. I also don't remember if it was mentioned about anyone putting in their 2 cents about it being a bad idea. (If someone could refresh my memory that'd be great). I know someone had to have stepped in and said Pettigrew wouldn't have been a good choice! I don't believe Lupin & the rest stood by and let the (lol sorry about this) nimrod of the group handle such a heavy load? I know personally, in our group of close friends that are family there is one person in particular (I'm sure theres one in every group of friends) that you wouldn't want them to take on a big job because either you don't trust them to do it right, theyre not competent enough, or a slew of other reasons. I get the impression Pettigrew would fall into this category. You'd almost get a guarenteed botched job, which is obviously what happened. Melanie (I believe it was) >I am wondering what you guys think the reason the house is devided into >four distinct places, each with defining characteristics and traits *mind you that most of the characters can be easily divided into more than one house* I am inclined to think that in the end the most important clue to what is going to happen in the books is the four houses. I believe that >the houses will each have to come together to defeat Voldemort once and for all. However, obviously I am open to people who disagree with me. What do you guys all think? I believe they did the houses like this because of the traits the original 4 had. I believe R. Ravenclaw was quite brainy, G. Gryffindor was a very very brave person and so on & so forth. I can't think of any other explanation? As far as dividing the houses and having some students who could be placed in multiple houses, do you think it could have to do w/ the way they do the classes? There are usually 2 houses per class (at least from what I've seen). Maybe the classes go at slightly different speeds/levels and they've grouped the houses together who are at the same speed regarding a specific class? I know that is probably a big shot in the dark that makes no sense, but at this point, anything is possible. Sen From ultimatesen at aol.com Mon Jun 9 17:47:22 2003 From: ultimatesen at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 17:47:22 -0000 Subject: OoP SPOILER: Number of New Characters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59672 cindy: Arabella Figg Mundungus Fletcher Mrs. Longbottom Mrs. Longbottom Dedalus Diddle Mr. Lestrange Real Moody Me: Some other giant because of the fact Hagrid is going to round everyone up and I don't see how we can avoid hearing from at least 1 other giant. Unless they decline to help completely and Hagrid comes back empty handed OR Hagrid will be out of this book completely and we wont know anything about his quest until the NEXT book. Also, I don't see why real Moody's voice would be different? Polyjuice potion turns you into that person temporarily. I don't believe the voice issue that was in the movie (Ron & Harry) was in the book. Sen From kkearney at students.miami.edu Mon Jun 9 17:52:08 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 17:52:08 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black at Godrics Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59673 Karen wondered: > How could Sirius Black have > turned up 'just' after Voldemoarts attack if he, SB, wasn't the > POtters secret keeper. > > It wouldn't make sense to have someone as the secret keeper, if every > one of their other friends knew where to find them! Would it?? ... > Did the POtter family move in to the house when PP was given the > details as secret keeper - or am I really missing something here? This depends on how one believes the Fidelius Charm works. We really aren't given much information regarding this. Flitwick explains that it is a complicated charm by which a specific bit of information is hidden within a person. I've detailed my theory of the Fidelius Charm before, but I'll restate it since I can't seem to find it in the archives. Basically, once the Fidelius Charm is performed, the secret information is removed from thought circulation. Those who previously had access to it lose it, and those who logistically should be able to deduce the information are prevented from doing so. The former instance seems rather simple; people simply forget something. In Lily's and James' case, people forget where they live (I'm assuming that the house in Godric's Hollow had been their home prior to the spell; my theory does not require it to be otherwise). Sirius, of course, knew about the spell and knows perfectly well why he can't remember their location. I imagine some of their other friends may have become rather perplexed, as they hopped on their broomsticks to pay a friendly visit and realized they hadn't a clue where they should go. In this respect, I think most people would figure out eventually that the Fidelius Charm had been employed. The latter type of information loss seems a bit more complicated. Someone mentions that Voldemort could be standing outside the Potters' window and not realize that they were there. I picture a sort of instantaneous amnesia, where a person looks in the window, sees the Potters, and yet is unable to reach the conclusion, "Oh, the Potters are here in this house." That conclusion, logical though it seems, is inaccessible. However, once the Secret Keeper divulges the information, the charm is broken. People who had prior knowledge of the info regain that knowledge, and people with sufficient clues pointing to the information are finally able to make the logical conclusion. So, as I see it, Sirius had probably become accustomed to wondering about his friend, but not remembering where James lived. One day, he muses to himself, "I wonder if James is still safe, and I wonder where he is..." and he naturally thinks in reply "He's probably at his home in Godric's Hollow." Panic time. Because he is suddenly able to remember, he knows the charm has been broken, and immediately races to Godic's Hollow to see if the Potters are in trouble. So, according to this theory, the house in Godric's Hollow could easily be one the Potters have lived in for years, but it isn't until the spell is broken that their friends (and enemies) remember its location. - Corinth From amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 9 18:05:07 2003 From: amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk (amy_marblefeet) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 18:05:07 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59674 Hmm, tricky subject this. I do have one non-prediction. Snape is not going to die. JKR has said that the death in the next book will be "horrible to write" and the death of Snape, lets face it will be wonderful to write. Whethere you love or hate the potions master lets face it he is not going down with out a fight, and a fight in the wizarding world means blood, sweat, tears and plenty of trauma. Wonderful. But now for my bang-worthy prediction for OoP. Well this ties together two predictions that have already been stated. Morgan D writes: >I'm putting my purse of Galleons on the >tragic demise of Dennis Creevey, which will lead his brother Colin to >blame Harry for it. >Why? Well, my first thought when Dennis showed up at Hogwarts >was, "too >many Creeveys; the cutest will die". And there are far too many >apparently unnecessary mentions of Dennis' presence in GoF, and he's >always so cutely small and cutely cheerful. Also, Colin's worshipping >of Harry strikes me as something that is being prepared to be a major >plot device in the future. And really I could not agree more with you but I think the death of his little brother will not only turn Colin against Harry but the wizarding world he is so in love with. Which leads me to Eileens prediction: >Unfogging the future, I foresee that Lupin will die by >the last page of OotP. >The obvious choice, if we're going to >get any unbearable sacrifice out of this book, is >Lupin. Everyone else has continuing roles. Lupin is, >sad to say, expendable. And I completly agree with this too. But he will not die as a result of a choice of Harrys. No. He will kill himself. But why I hear you cry! What could Lupin possible do that would make him commit harri-karri. Well ladies and gentlemen of the jury, Lupin is going to eat Denis Creevey. And that is my big bang of Oop. Amy (wishing that The Book was not release right in the middle of her exams as she is sure to get no work done) From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 18:41:15 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 11:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP SPOILER: Number of New Characters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030609184115.38148.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59675 --- "Cindy wrote: > Hi, all, > > Here's a nugget that could lead to some > interesting last-minute > speculation. Supposedly, Jim Dale says he had > to do 125 voices for > the first four books, and the number will be up > to 134 for OoP. > Hmmm. That's nine new voices. I wonder who > they might be . . . > > Arabella Figg > Mundungus Fletcher > Mrs. Longbottom > Mrs. Longbottom > Dedalus Diddle > Mr. Lestrange > Real Moody Lynn: First, there are some posts focusing on just GoF but from this post it suggests that he was speaking about all 4 books so all characters covered in the first four are included. This would make sense since characters from other books are supposed to return for this one. Second, Dadalus Diggle already spoke in PS when Harry and Hagrid first went into The Leaky Cauldron so he should be striken from the list. Third, it is a good idea to figure out who's voice has been heard but may not be heard here, which would mean there are more than 9 new voices. We probably wouldn't hear Quirrell again and would we necessarily hear Mr. & Mrs. Honeyduke's again? How about the unnamed house-elves? Who hasn't been mentioned already by others? How about - the 4th man in the court scene in the pensieve? We really don't know who he was. Perhaps it's not Winky who is the vengeful house-elf but perhaps a different one? Could we hear the voice of the school nurse or the headmaster from Smeltings call the Dursleys to lay some hard truths on them about Duddikins? What about Col. Fubster? A spokesperson from St. Mungo's? The Creevey parents? How about Ron's cousin? Maybe she makes an appearance in this book. Perkins? Other Ministry wizards whom Arthur contacts? OOOO, maybe the Bloody Baron actually speaks. I can't remember, have Crabbe or Goyle ever said anything? Perhaps new shop proprietors? Doctors at St. Mungo's? Prof. Sinistra? A new creature in the Forbidden Forest? Personally, I think the list could be endless depending on the plot possibilities. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From ambiree at students.bradley.edu Mon Jun 9 18:46:49 2003 From: ambiree at students.bradley.edu (ambiree at students.bradley.edu) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:46:49 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] best lines in the book? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1055184409.3ee4d61999dd4@webmail.bradley.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 59676 Hi, all, Best lines in the book? Hmmm...that is difficult, but I would have to say Book 4, I believe the title of the chapter is "Back to the Burrow." Mr. Weasley, Fred and George are stuck in the fireplace when Ron lands on top of them. Forgive the crude paraphrase...my books are at home and i am at work (in a library whose copies of HP 4 are all checked out currently) Ron: What's going on? Did something go wrong? George: Oh, no Ron. This is exactly where we wanted to be. Fred: (who's pushed into a corner by the crowding) Yeah, we're having the time of our lives here. or.... PoA--just before harry figures out he conjured the Patronus that saved them... Any moment now the person who conjured the Patronus would be coming up behind that bush... Harry: "Come on, where are you? Dad, come on. Where are you?" (if you've NOT ever listened to this scene on audio by the reader Jim Dale it is absolutely heart-rending to hear him expressing his wish to see his father.) or....last but not least... PoA--at the end of the book where Harry is getting off the train and is confronted by Uncle Vernon who barks at him about having another "ruddy form" for him to sign...and Harry's reply is Harry: It's not. It's a letter from my godfather UV: Godfather? You haven't got a godfather! Harry: Yes, I have. He was my mum and dad's best friend. He's a convicted murderer, but he's broken out of wizard prison and he's on the run. He likes to keep in touch with me, though. Keep up with my news. Check if I'm happy. >From amber--who is under absolute torture because she works in two libraries AND a bookstore that has other staff making fun of her for her obsession for the NEWEST book. Quoting chesterr : > Hi > I'm writing a piece for The Courier-Mail (daily newspaper in > Brisbane, Australia) looking at the best sentences in the Harry > Potter series. I have my own favourites (there's a line, and i'm > quoting from memory because i don't have my book in front of me, in > the first book in which Hagrid mentions he borrows the motorbike from > Sirius Black - a reference you read over at first and only realise > the significance in latter books) but am after nominations from > fellow HP fans. > cheers > Rod Chester > The Courier-Mail > chesterr at qnp.newsltd.com.au > chesterr at yahoo.com > > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material > from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to > HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and > Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- > MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > -- Amber ***It's all fun and games 'til I get tickled~~Amber C. Lowery*** From ambiree at students.bradley.edu Mon Jun 9 18:51:58 2003 From: ambiree at students.bradley.edu (ambiree at students.bradley.edu) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:51:58 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] NON-Spoiler Question... In-Reply-To: <20030609043834.3128.qmail@web41511.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030609043834.3128.qmail@web41511.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1055184718.3ee4d74e86576@webmail.bradley.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 59677 Hi, all, >From what I understand, (I work at a Waldenbooks), we are getting the book on the 20th. However, we will not be opening @ midnight like everyone else. It is my understanding that we will be unpacking them Friday afternoon and ensuring we have enough copies to cover all our pre-orders and calling people to remind them that they have a book on hold that will be available to them at 8:00 am the next morning. I could be wrong, but I know that I am being roped into working and that I will not be working alone so I can't get a sneak peek...unless of course I have to put in the security stickers to prevent theft. Amber---whose mantra for the day is 12 days, 12 days, 12 days, 12 days..... Quoting Rebecca Sylvester : > Piper wrote: > > > I have a question about OotP, but it's not a spoiler.... > > > > I'm ordering from a small bookstore that orders the books from > > Scholastic. Does Scholastic send the books early, so the stores keep > them > until the > > day it goes for sale? How early are the books sent? Or do the books > arrive > > day-of or day-before? > > > > Izaskun: > > >As far as I know, they're getting the books a little earlier, but they > have > >to sign a sort of contract, compromising to notopen the boxes till > midnight. > > I can't answer for all book stores, however, I just stopped working for B & N > bookstores, and I know that they were getting the books several days earlier. > Izaskun was exactly right when he said > <>, they swear to among other > things, not open the books until midnight the 21st. Don't know if I helped > at all or just repeated. > > Peace, > Rebecca > > Mod note: This thread is great, and informative for everyone, but as it is no > longer discussing the content of the books, please could everyone interested > carry on over at OT-Chatter: > > groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/messages > > List-elf David > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material > from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to > HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and > Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- > MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > -- Amber ***It's all fun and games 'til I get tickled~~Amber C. Lowery*** From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 18:58:39 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 11:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030609185839.52189.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59678 --- "Cindy wrote: Maybe it's > time for a gut-check -- time for anyone who's > willing to stand on > just one OoP prediction to step forward. Lynn: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction is: ***** drum roll ****** I will get my copy of OoP on June 21st and will have to re-read it at least 2 times before my hubby is allowed to touch it, by which time our second copy of OoP will have arrived from Amazon so I won't have to give up my copy for him to read at all! Also, he will beg me not to reveal any spoilers to him when I start reading but after seeing my reactions to various passages will keep asking me to tell him what's happening. In addition, when he finally starts to read his copy, he will keep making comments hoping I will give him hints about what is coming. Lynn (glad to get that prediction out of the way though I seriously doubt that's the type of prediction Cindy meant) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From yellows at aol.com Mon Jun 9 19:05:00 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 15:05:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP The Death of Book 5 Message-ID: <52158204.076F5D9E.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59679 In a message dated 6/9/2003 3:54:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, Brittney writes: > Another thought occurred to me as I have been writing this post. Perhaps it will be Wormtail. He has been around since the first book (as Scabbers, mind) and he has been a bit of > a main character (often mentioned throughout the series). This will sound ridiculous, of course, but the other day I had a dream that someone on this list got access to OoP and posted, without a spoiler warning: The Death is WORMTAIL! I woke up really upset that the whole thing had been ruined for me. :) When I got my wits back, though, I started to wonder if Wormtail could actually be the death. I know we consider it to be a good guy, since it's supposed to be emotionally distressing, but what if Wormtail dies saving Harry because of his life debt? That might be very sad if it's done the right way. Brief Chronicles From yellows at aol.com Mon Jun 9 19:13:48 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 15:13:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] best lines in the book? Message-ID: <3663226C.0A7A19E6.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59680 In a message dated 6/8/2003 10:51:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rod Chester writes: > I'm writing a piece for The Courier-Mail (daily newspaper in > Brisbane, Australia) looking at the best sentences in the > Harry > Potter series. :) I love this line so much it almost makes me cry: "Remember Cedric. Remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy who was good, and kind, and brave, because he strayed across the path of Lord Voldemort. Remember Cedric Diggory." -- Albus Dumbledore, GoF I also love the part where Harry gets his permission slip from Sirius at the end of PoA, but that doesn't really count as a line, does it? :) Brief Chronicles From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 9 06:40:02 2003 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 07:40:02 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magic Quill References: <000f01c32e1f$7cced720$68c24943@prodigy.net> Message-ID: <3EE42BC2.7020705@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59681 Gretchen Bakies wrote: > I've noted that several people have speculated if we will see items from the > other three founders like Godric Gryffindor's sword. I don't' know if this > has been discussed before or note, but could the magic quill that writes the > children's names down when their born be Rowena Ravenclaw's old quill? > Since her house is linked with unusually intelligence, this could make sense > that she'd be the one to leave something to identify future magical > children. > > > digger writes: Another excellent suggestion! I like this. Sooooooooooooo, what kind of article do you think Hufflepuff has left lying around? From RhianynTheCat at aol.com Mon Jun 9 17:48:53 2003 From: RhianynTheCat at aol.com (RhianynTheCat at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:48:53 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: An introduction, Sirius Black, the four houses Message-ID: <1e5.aa676b4.2c162285@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59682 In a message dated 6/9/2003 6:32:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sfpeterso at yahoo.com writes: > Sirius is extremely angry and Wormtail, and tries to KILL him > several times. He doesn't want to turn him over to the authorities > (although that would appear to have cleared his name). Rhianyn blinks and stretches 'pon her velvet chair by the hearth: I think that Sirius has had much time in Azkaban to think about the MoM and why they rushed him to prison with no trial and what their motivations might have been. I'm not sure he would trust them with a trial of Wormtail. But I may be projecting my suspicions about Fudge (and just how _did_ Malfoy get into the MoM by the way?) onto Sirius. Rhianyn :::Curls fluffy black tail about herself just _so_ and returns to napping by the fire:::: ^ ^ =( * .*)= [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 19:55:54 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 19:55:54 -0000 Subject: Names in goblet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59683 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > >> bboy_mn: The Goblet was 'hoodwinked' into believing there was a forth school. ... it was an un-named school. The Goblet believed there was a forth school, and Harry bacame that champion by default.>> > > The Sergeant Majorette says: > ... it is merely a plot hole; namely, how dumb does a magic > object have to be to be fooled into thinking there could be a > *fourth" entrant in a *tri*-wizard tournament? > --JDR bboy_mn: I don't see it as that hard. While the Goblet does have some intelligence, there is nothing to suggest that any magical object, the Sorting Hat, the 'living' paintings, the Goblet, whatever, has the full congnitive, analytical, rational, reasoning thought processes of a human being. The Goblet's job, for purposes of illustration, is to pick the most able and qualified champion from among the list of candidates from EACH school whether it is 3 schools or 10 schools. I think picking the champion from the candidates is where most of the Goblet intelligence lies, not in evealuating the proper number of schools. It possible that the 'hoodwinking' was as simple as creating another school name; a school named ".". Harry's name was entered as "Harry Potter .", where "Harry Potter" is the candidate and "." is the school. I certainly can't say that this it true, and Moody's statements in the chamber behind the Great Hall would seem to imply it was a little more difficult than I make it out. But at the same time, I still say that the bulk of the Goblet's intelligence is in evaluating the candidates. It probably never occurred to anyone that there would be more than 3 school, so that wasn't a point of security when designing the Goblet. Or as an alternative approach, it's possible that the Goblet designers considered the possibility that at some point in the future there would be more than 3 major schools of magic in Europe, and that they may indeed at some point need to add one or more schools to the list. So, again, they didn't think to make this aspect a very secure point. I certainly can't say that this it true, but I am not searching for truth, I am searching for a LIKELY explaination. Just a thought. bboy_mn From RhianynTheCat at aol.com Mon Jun 9 18:01:09 2003 From: RhianynTheCat at aol.com (RhianynTheCat at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 14:01:09 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction Message-ID: <141.1349cd41.2c162565@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59684 In a message dated 6/9/2003 6:50:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cindysphynx at comcast.net writes: > Maybe it's > time for a gut-check -- time for anyone who's willing to stand on > just one OoP prediction to step forward. > Rhianyn's whiskers tremble at the hint of a challenge and after due consideration she puts forth: This was a bit tough to choose between my Fudge theory or my Ron theory. But I believe the theory that Ron inadvertently betrays Harry for money may develop further down the series. So my one theory will be that Cornelius Fudge is a baddie. I base it on his haste to do away with both Sirius and Bartemous Crouch before they could spill more information. I think his concern for Harry in PoA was based more on a desire to keep Harry's whereabouts known until Voldie became more powerful. I think the same can be said for his surface level support of Dumbledore as Headmaster of Hogwarts. But when the chips are down and Dumbledor really _needs_ to be at Hogwarts (SS and CoS) Fudge is instrumental in banishing him or calling him away. Then there is his flare up at Dumbledore at the end of GoB. So there's my Galleon in the pot (an you need not worry that it's Leprechaun gold, the wee flighty little things'll not come near me for some reason). Rhianyn :::Curls fluffy black tail about herself just _so_ and returns to napping by the fire:::: ^ ^ =( * .*)= [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cindysphynx at comcast.net Mon Jun 9 20:16:53 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 20:16:53 -0000 Subject: OoP SPOILER: Number of New Characters In-Reply-To: <20030609184115.38148.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59685 The original list . . . > > Arabella Figg > > Mundungus Fletcher > > Mrs. Longbottom > > Mrs. Longbottom > > Dedalus Diddle > > Mr. Lestrange > > Real Moody Then Lynn observed: > First, there are some posts focusing on just GoF > but from this post it suggests that he was > speaking about all 4 books so all characters > covered in the first four are included. This > would make sense since characters from other > books are supposed to return for this one. That's my reading of this as well. In the first 4 books combined, there are a total of 125 characters that required voices. Dumbledore counts as one, not four. So if Lupin turns up in OoP, then he isn't one of our nine new characters. Lady Lindi nailed me on Dedalus Diggle by pointing out that he had the one line in PS/SS. Curses! But we can replace Mrs. Diggle with Fridwulfa, thanks to Morgan D. So then the list becomes: Arabella Figg Mundungus Fletcher Mrs. Longbottom Mrs. Longbottom Dedalus Diddle Mr. Lestrange Real Moody Fridwulfa So that means JKR will introduce only one new character in OoP! Man, we're good, huh? ;-) Cindy -- betting this single new character will be female and will have something to do with Voldemort's first reign of terror From am025392 at skynet.be Mon Jun 9 18:15:15 2003 From: am025392 at skynet.be (De Boeck - Ponet) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 20:15:15 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Names in goblet References: Message-ID: <001f01c32eb3$13928920$869288d9@deboeck> No: HPFGUIDX 59686 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59687 <<<--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theultimatesen" wrote: I believe they did the houses like this because of the traits the original 4 had...I can't think of any other explanation?... As far as dividing the houses and having some students who could be placed in multiple houses, do you think it could have to do w/ the way they do the classes? There are usually 2 houses per class (at least from what I've seen). Maybe the classes go at slightly different speeds/levels and they've grouped the houses together who are at the same speed regarding a specific class? I know that is probably a big shot in the dark that makes no sense, but at this point, anything is possible.>> The Sergeant Majorette says: It's more a function of how the traditional English boarding school is structured. The "house" is a kind of administrative unit -- something like what we call in the US the "homeroom", where we report in the morning before we disperse to other classes. In the early years when everybody is taking core curriculum, you're taught in your 'house', or 'homeroom' group. A large lecture or laboratory class might combine two homerooms. The 'sorting' is semi-arbitrary -- maybe the interests you've indicated on your application, or your test scores (it would *never* be explicitly stated, but everybody always knows which class is the 'dumb' class). In the more rigid British model, the first pass of sorting might be by heritage -- you go where your forefathers went. Check out this article -- http://www.nytimes.com/books/99/10/10/bookend/bookend.html --JDR From RhianynTheCat at aol.com Mon Jun 9 18:20:36 2003 From: RhianynTheCat at aol.com (RhianynTheCat at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 14:20:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron, Harry, Molly, and MONEY Message-ID: <36.41d01f12.2c1629f4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59688 In a message dated 6/9/2003 9:27:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jestahijinx at hotmail.com writes: > the buying of treats > on the train the first day (see, Harry thought of a gracious way to say "I > bought all this, help me eat it all!") and the Omnioculars. Yes, and look what an uncomfortable fuss Ron made about those omnioculars when he found out the leprechaun gold he paid Harry back with disappeared. Harry may well feel that when he tries to do something nice moneywise it only exacerbates Ron's titchiness about money. P'raps if Ron learned to receive with grace, Harry might be less hesitant about giving :) Has to be a two way street methinks :) :::Curls fluffy black tail about herself just _so_ and returns to napping by the fire:::: ^ ^ =( * .*)= [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From am025392 at skynet.be Mon Jun 9 18:27:00 2003 From: am025392 at skynet.be (De Boeck - Ponet) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 20:27:00 +0200 Subject: What other curse scar? Message-ID: <002c01c32eb4$b7e5fd80$869288d9@deboeck> No: HPFGUIDX 59689 Hi, newbie here, Kristel, 32, from Antwerp, Belgium. I just finished re-reading GoF and I was struck by something in ch 36, p 613, UK hardback. DD is explaining to Fudge that Harry is not going mental and that his scar hurting really does mean that LV is close by, "or feeling particularly murderous." Fudge's reply strikes me as odd : "You'll forgive me, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm bell before..." What other curse scar? Who's scar? Did I miss something? I browsed the Lexicon and this group's archives, but didn't find anything. Any comments? Kristel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jwilliamson at rocketmail.com Mon Jun 9 18:24:58 2003 From: jwilliamson at rocketmail.com (jwilliamson.rm) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 18:24:58 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59690 "Cindy C." wrote: > Now that June 21 is just around the corner (Wow! -- We'll be reading OoP next weekend!), maybe it's time to get *serious* here. No more having a whole bunch of vague predictions to your name. Maybe it's time for a gut-check -- time for anyone who's willing to stand on just one OoP prediction to step forward. I - jwilliamson - will branch out here and try this on y'all: (Great idea for a post, btw, Cindy) My prediction isn't nearly as exciting as the "who dies" ones, but it could add some interesting new dimensions. Here goes: I've mentioned it before, as have many, that Arabella Figg will be the DADA teacher. However, here's the prediction twist: 1. She is really Harry's godmother, the female friend of Lilly's that has been fulfilling her protective/godmotherly duties as his seemingly Muggle baby-sitter. 2. She is also of the same age group as Sirius, James, Lilly, Lupin and Snape - a part of the "old gang" Dumbledore mentions at the end of GoF - and was merely posing as an elderly Muggle woman. 3. Arabella was and will again be a part of a romantic triangle with Sirius and Snape. An additional layer to the already existing hatred. Cheers, A loony Lupin lover who really hopes he is not the Book 5 death! From desiivy at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 19:43:10 2003 From: desiivy at yahoo.com (~Ivy~) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 12:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] best lines in the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030609194310.94248.qmail@web12706.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59691 chesterr wrote: Hi I'm writing a piece for The Courier-Mail (daily newspaper in Brisbane, Australia) looking at the best sentences in the Harry Potter series. <<<>>>> "Ivy" --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From p_prideaux at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 9 20:05:04 2003 From: p_prideaux at yahoo.co.uk (Paul Prideaux) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 20:05:04 -0000 Subject: Eileen's *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction - Lupin Dies In-Reply-To: <20030609171759.65499.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59692 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Eileen wrote: > Unfogging the future, I foresee that Lupin will die by > the last page of OotP. First of all, I've always had > Lupin on my to-die list, from first meeting him in > PoA. People who are tired die. It's a literary > convention. Indeed, it is an oft used literary device. By this logic, Dumbledore must also die as he's quite extensively refered to as looking old and tired in GoF. Pryd. x From cindysphynx at comcast.net Mon Jun 9 20:25:01 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 20:25:01 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59693 My goodness! When you guys make a prediction, you really *make a prediction,* don't you? Wow! First there was this from Amy about dear Lupin: >He will kill himself. But why I hear you cry! What could Lupin >possible do that would make him commit harri-karri. Well ladies and >gentlemen of the jury, Lupin is going to eat Denis Creevey. Whoa! I have *never* heard *that* prediction before. Dang! I'm . . . I'm speechless. And feeling a little bit sick, honestly. Tell us, Amy. Is Lupin going to rip little Denis Creevey limb from limb right there in the main dining room, or will this bit of bloodletting take place deep within the darkest regions of the Forbidden Forest? ;-) Eileen, however, predicted the following: >People who are tired die. It's a literary >convention. Hmmmm. Very interesting. I've seen this prediction associated with Dumbledore, but this is definitely taking it to the next level. The problem, though, is that JKR doesn't seem to go that route when she rubs someone out. James and Lily weren't fatigued. Crouch Sr. and Cedric weren't characterized as short on beauty sleep. I dunno, Eileen. It could happen. Seems a little risky to me, but hey, it's your one prediction. Cindy -- who will keep drinking coffee so that she remains alert enough to survive in Eileen's world From linlou43 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 20:28:04 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 20:28:04 -0000 Subject: OoP SPOILER: Number of New Characters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59694 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." wrote: > The original list . . . > > > > Arabella Figg > > > Mundungus Fletcher > > > Mrs. Longbottom > > > Mrs. Longbottom > > > Dedalus Diddle > > > Mr. Lestrange > > > Real Moody > > Then Lynn observed: > > > First, there are some posts focusing on just GoF > > but from this post it suggests that he was > > speaking about all 4 books so all characters > > covered in the first four are included. This > > would make sense since characters from other > > books are supposed to return for this one. > > > That's my reading of this as well. In the first 4 books combined, > there are a total of 125 characters that required voices. Dumbledore > counts as one, not four. So if Lupin turns up in OoP, then he isn't > one of our nine new characters. > > Lady Lindi nailed me on Dedalus Diggle by pointing out that he had > the one line in PS/SS. Curses! > > But we can replace Mrs. Diggle with Fridwulfa, thanks to Morgan D. > > So then the list becomes: > > Arabella Figg > Mundungus Fletcher > Mrs. Longbottom > Mrs. Longbottom > Dedalus Diddle > Mr. Lestrange > Real Moody > Fridwulfa > > So that means JKR will introduce only one new character in OoP! > > Man, we're good, huh? ;-) Me(Linda): I don't see us having only nine new characters at all. There were many bit parts in GOF that I doubt will be repeated, especially, as pointed out by TLC, at the QWC. I think a lot of those little speaking parts won't be repeated and we will see a whole slew of new faces. - Linda, just my two knuts From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 20:28:49 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 20:28:49 -0000 Subject: Ron, Harry, Molly, and MONEY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59695 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Renee Daniels" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" > wrote: > > Felinia Jesta Hijinx wrote: > << Harry really *could* do more for the Weasleys if he put his mind > to it. I find all this "pride" the embarrassing part, actually. He > could send an occasional anonymous gift to one of the Weasleys, ... > > To which Rita Prince Winston replied: > < Do you think Ron would have fallen for that? .... > > Where would Harry have learned about secret charity? Not in the > Dursley home. .... > > My Two Knuts: (Calimora) > > Call me juvinile, but I think it really is a matter of pride and > Harry's respect for Ron that keeps both of them from > offering/accepting money. > bboy_mn: Let me first point out the Harry is a kid with his whole life ahead of him. IT'S NOT HIS JOB to take care of the adults around him; it's their job to take care of him; a kid. Harry lives a cursed life. First Voldemort tries to kill him, then he sent to live with the Dursleys, etc.... Trouble follows him wherever he goes. That's not the kind of life that makes you feel very secure about the future. So Harry is very conservative about his money. He doesn't subscribe to the 'live hard, die young' philosophy of life. His is more, keep you head down, do your best, and hope for the best. He is generous. He bought the Omnioculars. When ever the food cart lady comes around on the train, Harry buys food for everyone. But there is a big difference between buying treats for friends, and taking care of the daily life of the whole Weasley family. Calimora, also brings up a most excellent point. Harry understands Ron's pride and he respects it. He would never humiliate a friend or his friend's family by, in a seeky way, trying to give them money. Even if he did, they would never ever accept it. Harry has said that he would gladly give the Weasley's half the money in his vault, but he know they are too proud to take it. Also, even thought it has aready been said, let me repeat that the Weasley's aren't dirt poor. They are what's called the working poor. They get by, they have very thing they need even if they don't have everything they want. They are well feed. They have a comfortable functional house. They have functional close to wear. There close may be used, but there is not indication that they aren't perfectly servicable; they are certainly not wearing rags. Side note, once upon a midnight dreary while I pondered weak and weary, the idea of Harry, Hermione, and Ron pooling their money, although a bulk of the money would come from Harry, second Hermione, and least from Ron, and buy the Weasley's a new owl for Christmas or as a thank you gift for their hostpitality. Since the present would be to Ron's parents, and everyone one would kick in money, no one would see it as charity. The Weaselys might refuse at first, but it's very impolite to refuse a gift beyond a token refusal. Just a thought I had. > Calimora continues: > > The 'charity' of 1000 galleons to the twins isn't really charity > IMHO, it's part guilt, part investment, part fortification against > the future, and it's 5 years of b-day and christmas presents to the > pair of nearly brothers who gave him the Maraurder's Map. > > ~Calimora (The Prideful Lurker) bboy_mn: In a certain Fan Fiction I wrote (highly unsuitable for general audiences and delicate minds) I projected this G1,000 into the future (2013) in which Fred and George have given Harry a 50% share in what by then has become Weasley Enterprises, the largest, most sucessfull diversified company in the wizard world, and pretty sizable in the muggle world. This seeming insignificant effort to get rid of some money that Harry sees as tainted with Cedric's blood, eventually makes him, Ron, Fred, and George, and to a lesser degree Molly, Arthur, Percy, Ginny, and Hermione VERY VERY RICH. Although, my story might have gone a little overboard in terms of wealth, I'm confident the Fred and George will consider Harry's money an investment, not a gift, and in return, will give Harry a sizable share in their business. A successful business that will give Harry and all the Weasley's a secure future. Just a thought. bboy_mn From rpquate at earthlink.net Mon Jun 9 20:37:17 2003 From: rpquate at earthlink.net (redandgoldlion) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 20:37:17 -0000 Subject: Constellations and Harry Potter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59696 Hello everyone, I'm not sure if this has been dicussed before, but I checked Lexicon and the archives here and didn't see anything. Sorry if this has already been run into the ground. I'm not the best at writing these things, so please excuse my mistakes. I am currently reading a book called _Star Myths and Stories_. As I was reading, I came across some interesting things that could possibly be Potter-parallels. ~ The first thing that caught my attention was under Canis Major, the Big Dog. The myth relating to this constellation, which is Orion's most fierce hunting dog. He is at the feet of Orion (a hunter) in the sky, with Canis Minor close by. Sometime, Canis Major is instead said to be Laelaps, a hound given to Cephalus. Either way, this constellation is very interesting, because of it's brightest star *Sirius*. The Egyptians honored the star, Sirius, because the appearance of Sirius helped them to determine how soon the annual flood of the Nile would occur, and give them a chance to prepare. The Romans, however, were always axious at his appearance, as it began the "dog days" of summer, withering crops and causing everyone to drip with sweat. Able to be seen from every part of earth with people living there, Sirius is most famous for his unique way of twinkling, giving him his nickname, the Twinkler. As it shines, it also changes color. Finally, this star is moving more than 40,000 mph across our line of vision, and has been for more than a thousand years. Almost certainly, we can assume that Rowling named the Sirius Black just that because Sirius is the major star of the Major Dog, but how far do her implications go? You could say that many see Sirius B. completely differently. Some see him as a murderer, others as a wonderful person, just as the Romans and the Egyptians disagreed over Sirius the star. As for his visibility, could that represent his fame, albeit mostly for something he didn't do, in the books? What about his twinkling, movement, and color-changing? Could that show he changes often, as in, say, into a dog? Or perhaps it symbolizes changes in his personality, or which side he's *really* on? (Though I personally think he's a "good-guy") I think I got a little carried away with this, and personally I don't think she named him for any of these reasons save that he's from the dog constellation, but it's still interesting. ;-) ~ Now for the "Draco (One story to his appearance in the heavens is the following, but there is another) and Minerva" story. It is believed that when Jupiter and the other gods were first fighting the Titans and *giants*, in order to take their places as rulers of the world, the *Dragon* (on the side of the giants and titans) attacked *Minerva* near the end of the battle. Grabbing the dragon, Minerva threw him into the heavens near the north pole, where he was caught and frozen, becoming a constellation. Could this represent a future confrontation between Draco M. and Minerva M.? Also, it places the giants as allies with the dragons. Maybe Hagrid and Maxime won't have much luck, eh? Just some thoughts. ~ Relating to the above story, Typon led a revolt of the *Giants* and *Dragons* against the gods, which failed. Perhaps this is what's coming with the rebirth of the Dark Lord, but his little (or not so little) "revolt" will fail? We can only hope. ~ There was more, but I'm out of time. This is the most of the good information, though. Bye, ~redandgoldlion~ "On matters of style, swim with the current. On matters of principle, stand like a rock." --Thomas Jefferson From tmarends at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 20:50:24 2003 From: tmarends at yahoo.com (Tim) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 20:50:24 -0000 Subject: OoP SPOILER: Number of New Characters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59697 > So then the list becomes: > > Arabella Figg > Mundungus Fletcher > Mrs. Longbottom > Mrs. Longbottom > Dedalus Diddle > Mr. Lestrange > Real Moody > Fridwulfa > > So that means JKR will introduce only one new character in OoP! > > Man, we're good, huh? ;-) > > Cindy You really can't put Real Moody on that list either, as his voice would be the same as the Fake Moody since, according to the books, your voice changes to the person as well as your looks with the Polyjuice Potion. Since Crouch Jr was Fake Moody, the voice of Real Moody should be the same. Tim From emeleel at juno.com Mon Jun 9 20:52:50 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 15:52:50 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] best lines in the book? Message-ID: <20030609.155250.-471577.0.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59698 Two of my favorites are both from PS/SS: Chap. 16, when Neville is trying to keep the Trio from leaving the common room: "Don't you call me an idiot" said Neville. "I don't think you should be breaking any more rules! And you were the one who told me to stand up to people!" "Yes, but not to *us*," said Ron in exasperation. Chap. 16, later, when trapped by the Devil's Snare: (Hermoine)"Devil's Snare, Devil's Snare...what did Professor Sprout say? ---- it likes the dark and the damp ----" "So light a fire!" Harry choked. "Yes ---- of course ---- but there's no wood!" Hermoine cried, wringing her hands. "HAVE YOU GONE MAD?" Ron bellowed. "ARE YOU A WITCH OR NOT?" "Oh, right!" said Hermoine.... Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From glcherry at bellsouth.net Mon Jun 9 20:55:24 2003 From: glcherry at bellsouth.net (stardancerofas) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 20:55:24 -0000 Subject: best lines in the book? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59699 Rod Chester wrote: snip...."I'm looking for the best sentences in the Harry Potter series.... Lorrie writes; For myself the lines that always brought home the depth of feeling the Marauder's where suppose to have for each other, and in my opinion the best lines are.... PoA, US paperback version. Ch. 19 page 375. Siius Black... "THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!" roared Black, "DIED RATHER THAN BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS, AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!" Forgive the caps, but that's how it's printed. I, and I'm not ashamed to admit it, have friends that I would, in a heartbeat die for. People who have stood by me, not just through good times but bad as well. They are my sisters, and brothers. They are my family. Just my two knuts :) Lorrie From karen.lyall at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Jun 9 19:08:38 2003 From: karen.lyall at blueyonder.co.uk (karenlyall666) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 19:08:38 -0000 Subject: OoP SPOILER: Number of New Characters In-Reply-To: <20030609184115.38148.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59700 Hi to answer the question as to wether the 125 voices comes from all the prev books or just GOf i found this quote - "In fact, on the Listening Library's just-released "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire," Dale portrays 125 voices in all." Hope this helps Also a quick question - as I'm re-reading POA at the mo I thought I'd have a go at listing on the 'speaking' parts as it were, I'm up to page 46 of the UK PB and son far have 18 different 'voices' let me know if I'm being to litteral in what counts as a 'voice', because if the number keep going like this I'm scared I still have 271 pages to go.... Here's the list up to P46 in order of appearance. Uncle Vernon Ron Weasley Harry Potter Muggle Newsreader Aunt Petunia Dudley Aunt Marge Stan Shunpike Ernie Prang Cornelius Fudge Tom (landlord of Leaky Cauldron) Wizard 1 in Diagon Alley Witch 1 in Diagon Alley Wizard 2 in Diagon Alley (QQS) Wizard kid in QQS Quality Quidditch Supplies Proprietor Flourish & Blotts Manager Leaky Cauldron Mirror ..... "karenlyall666" From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 21:01:57 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 21:01:57 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59701 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." > wrote: > > > > > Now that June 21 is just around the corner (Wow! -- We'll be > > reading OoP next weekend!), maybe it's time to get *serious* here. > > > My prediction is ... that Neville witnessed his parents being > tortured. > > Hickengruendler bboy_mn: My prediction is that the reason Neville's parents were tortured is that Harry (and possibly Hagrid) stayed with Neville during the missing 24 hours, and that is what lead the DE's to believe the the Longbottoms might have some information about what happened to Voldemort. Of all the Aurors and wizards the DE's could have tourtured, why the Longbottoms? There has to be a reason. Well, you'll find my reason stated above. Just a thought. bboy_mn From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Jun 9 21:01:07 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 21:01:07 -0000 Subject: OoP SPOILER: Number of New Characters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59702 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tim" wrote: > > You really can't put Real Moody on that list either, as his voice > would be the same as the Fake Moody since, according to the books, > your voice changes to the person as well as your looks with the > Polyjuice Potion. Since Crouch Jr was Fake Moody, the voice of Real > Moody should be the same. > > Tim Plus the real Moody was in the chapter "The Pensieve" at two of the three death eater processes. Hickengruendler From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Mon Jun 9 21:15:54 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:15:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Eileen's *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction - Lupin Dies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030609211554.24035.qmail@web20405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59703 --- Paul Prideaux wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Eileen > wrote: > > Unfogging the future, I foresee that Lupin will > die by > > the last page of OotP. First of all, I've always > had > > Lupin on my to-die list, from first meeting him in > > PoA. People who are tired die. It's a literary > > convention. > > Indeed, it is an oft used literary device. By this > logic, Dumbledore must also die as he's quite > extensively > refered to as looking old and tired in GoF. Yep. I'm saving that for my Book 6 or 7 rock solid prediction, haven't decided which. Dumbledore is just way too tired to live on, but he's also too important to go in Book V. Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 21:18:46 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 21:18:46 -0000 Subject: Forms of Magic - Apparation or not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59704 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jesta Hijinx" wrote: > > >Recently when reading Goblet, I came to wonder how those house > > elves scale the width, breadth and depth of Hogwarts, and then > > as I remembered, Dobby just snaps his fingers and disappears. > The elves also make food disappear and reappear on tables above. > > > >Would this be considered forms of Apparition? > > > One of the things I think we should bear in mind is that not > everything we see around the kids in the WW is going to fall neatly > into the categories... > > I doubt that it's true Apparition and is probably called something > else and operates slightly differently. > > Felinia bboy_mn: The original poster asked: Would food appearing and disappearing from the tables be considered a from of apparation? My answer: No. At least, not in the context we are given. I think what happens to the food is what I call a 'transfer' spell. Food is transferred from the lower kitchen tables to the upper dining room tables. Dumbledore transfers, at least in my opinion, the purple squashy sleeping bags from storage to the Great Hall. Dumbledore transfers the tea and cakes from the kitchens to Hagrid's cabin when H/R/H were trying to convince Hagrid to come back and teach. McGonagall transfers sandwiches and pumpkin juice up from the kitchens to Snape's office for Harry and Ron. So, it's possible that instead of Apparating, Dobby just preformed a transfer spell on himself, and moved himself to a new location. Although, I will concede that Elf magic is very powerful, I would say far more powerful than even wizard's magic. So, it is conceivable the Elfin version of apparation is powerful enough or different enough that is is not affected by the wards and spells that protect Hogwart's castle. I mean it is unlikely that Hogwarts will ever be attack by a rogue band of elves. So could a normal wizard 'tranfer' another wizard into or out of the Hogwart's grounds? I don't think so. I think the primary purpose of the protection spells is to stop wizard's magic. So neither apparation nor transfer by a wizard would work. But Elves have a completely different brand of magic. So conceivably, an elf could transfer a wizard into or out of Hogwarts grounds. In fact, I suspect we may actually see that happen. Harry will be attacked inside the castle, and at the last minute, he will remember that Dobby appeared to apparate inside the castle. So Harry runs to the kitchens, and Dobby transfers H/R/H into Hogsmeade or into the forest where they can escape from Voldemort or launch a counter attack. Just a thought. bboy_mn From drdara at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 21:19:44 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 14:19:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What other curse scar? In-Reply-To: <002c01c32eb4$b7e5fd80$869288d9@deboeck> Message-ID: <20030609211944.68903.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59705 Correction, the line is :You'll forgive me, Dumbledore, but I've never heard of a curse scar acting as an alrm bell before....." you've forgot one word, there are more than one curse scars I'm sure, but in this reference Fudge is referring to in general. --- De Boeck - Ponet wrote: > Hi, newbie here, Kristel, 32, from Antwerp, Belgium. > I just finished re-reading GoF and I was struck by > something in ch 36, p 613, UK hardback. DD is > explaining to Fudge that Harry is not going mental > and that his scar hurting really does mean that LV > is close by, "or feeling particularly murderous." > Fudge's reply strikes me as odd : "You'll forgive > me, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse scar > acting as an alarm bell before..." > > What other curse scar? Who's scar? Did I miss > something? I browsed the Lexicon and this group's > archives, but didn't find anything. > > Any comments? > > Kristel > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Mon Jun 9 21:22:30 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:22:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030609212230.39923.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59706 --- "Cindy C." wrote: > My goodness! When you guys make a prediction, you > really *make a > prediction,* don't you? Wow! You know where I got this FEATHERBOA, don't you, Cindy? > The problem, though, is that JKR doesn't seem to go > that route when > she rubs someone out. James and Lily weren't > fatigued. Crouch Sr. > and Cedric weren't characterized as short on beauty > sleep. I dunno, > Eileen. It could happen. Seems a little risky to > me, but hey, it's > your one prediction. Well, first of all this is a fallacy of some sort. It's saying, "All tired people die. Therefore, all people who die are tired." That makes as little sense as "All squares are rectangles. Therefore, all rectangles are squares." But meanwhile, Crouch Sr. WAS characterized as tired. Another point for my theory. > Cindy -- who will keep drinking coffee so that she > remains alert > enough to survive in Eileen's world I think drinking excessive coffee/tea/cocoa is also a bad sign. Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From gandharvika at hotmail.com Mon Jun 9 21:26:35 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 21:26:35 +0000 Subject: (FILK) I Have Some Theories Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59707 As you well know I ain't much of a poster when it comes to these here speculations. However, what with The Order of The Phoenix right around the corner, I wanted it to be put on the record exactly what my predictions are for the new book. And since I'm most comfortable writing filks then, hey! Why not set it to music? I Have Some Theories (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _I've Got A Feeling_ by the Beatles) Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle19.html Dedicated to CMC, the Master of Rhyme, who will unfortunately not be around the day OoP is released. I hope you have a wonderful vacation, Boss! Gail B. singing with her Fender Jazz Bass in hand: There are some theories on HP4GU Oh yeah, oh yeah A lot of theories, now Five is coming soon Oh yeah, oh yeah Yeah, yeah a bunch of theories At the stroke of midnight the Phoenix it will rise Oh yeah, oh yeah Then we'll see who's right and whose SHIPs will capsize Oh yeah, oh yeah Yeah, yeah, Order Of The Phoenix But all this time I've been a-lurking around Keeping my thoughts to myself Now our Order's almost in And there's something I wanna say There are some theories, the ones that I support Oh yeah, oh yeah I'll sing them clearly and try to keep it short Oh yeah, oh yeah Yeah, yeah, here are my theories: Hagrid's gonna bite the big one Though my next bet is on D'dore I dig the idea of Stoned!Harry But not the Heir of Gryffindor Oh no, oh no, oh no Voldemort will attack Hogwarts But it will be to no avail MAGIC DISHWASHER it sends me But not every single detail Oh no, oh no, oh no Rita Skeeter will get revenge My man Snape will spy again A Ron/Hermione SHIP is What I think is gonna happen LOLLIPOPS seems very likely The Dark Arts teacher's gonna be Figg I'm excited about Phoenix I hope the Bang is gonna be Big Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah (Oh, the wait! It's been so long!) -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Jun 9 21:28:41 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:28:41 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP SPOILER: Number of New Characters Message-ID: <11f.228ed219.2c165609@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59708 In a message dated 6/9/2003 12:07:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cindysphynx at comcast.net writes: > Hmmm. That's nine new voices. I wonder who they might be . . . Ten, at least, since one we heard in GoF has been silenced (Cedric's). We may also lose Krum, Fleur, Mme. Maxime... Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 21:42:38 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 21:42:38 -0000 Subject: What other curse scar? In-Reply-To: <002c01c32eb4$b7e5fd80$869288d9@deboeck> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59709 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "De Boeck - Ponet" wrote: > Hi, newbie here, Kristel, 32, from Antwerp, Belgium. ... Fudge's reply strikes me as odd : "You'll forgive me, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm bell before..." > > What other curse scar? Who's scar? Did I miss something? ... > > Any comments? > > Kristel bboy_mn: Moody's entire body is one big collection of curse scars. Dumblefore also has a scar on his knee that we can only assume came from a curse. So lots of people in the wizard world, especially if they have lead dangerous lives, have curse scars. Having said that, let me make a distinction between a curse scar and a curseD scar. Moody is one big collection of curse scar, but Harry has a one of a kind, never existed before curseD scar. There is more going on with Harry's scar than simply a wound from a curse. His scar seems to be active, it is a scar that is still under the influence of some type of magic, which in my book makes it a curseD scar. Just a point of view. bboy_mn From sfpeterso at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 21:01:23 2003 From: sfpeterso at yahoo.com (Scott Peterson) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 21:01:23 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59710 Cindy wrote: > Now that June 21 is just around the corner (Wow! -- We'll be reading > OoP next weekend!), maybe it's time to get *serious* here. No more > having a whole bunch of vague predictions to your name. Maybe it's > time for a gut-check -- time for anyone who's willing to stand on > just one OoP prediction to step forward. > Now me: I hope you don't mind if I add more than one prediction. My predictions for Ootp: Ginny Weasley Ginny will finally join the trio. She will blossom into a beautiful young lady, and attract Harry's attention. Harry's interest in her will grow, and his infatuation with Cho Chang will be nothing but a distant memory. Peter Petigrew Peter will fail LV, his master, one final time when Harry is almost in his grasp. He will finally become food for the snake. Cornelius Fudge Fudge will fade away as if he never existed. All will recognize the blunder it was to promote him to the Minister of Magic position, and few will follow him into oblivion. IMO, Fudge was never really respected in the first place, except for those who sought greater power. With the return of LV and the Death Eaters, and as the deaths begin to mount, he will be a forgotten memory. Fudge will manage to stall long enough for LV to get control of the dementors. The prison doors will be opened, all the death eaters will clamber into the sunshine, and join their master as heroes and heroines. Book 5 Death This is the hardest of all to write, because the death of any of these beloved characters will tear my heart out. However, I can see the book ending with Harry facing LV once again, only this time Ron will not be lucky enough to be unconscious or in the hospital wing, or behind a bed of rocks. Ron, like Cedric before him, will not be able to withstand the AK spell cast upon him. Again, Harry will face LV alone, stricken with grief over the loss of his best friend. "Scott" From awillia2 at gladstone.uoregon.edu Mon Jun 9 21:23:22 2003 From: awillia2 at gladstone.uoregon.edu (Aesha Williams) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 14:23:22 -0700 Subject: OoP character spoiler: Original and new list confusion References: <1055189892.4905.25466.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004701c32ecd$5c0c7700$ced1df80@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 59711 Hi, Cindy! Perhaps I am reading this incorrectly. Let me see. The original list . . . The new list (updated) > > Arabella Figg Arabella Figg > > Mundungus Fletcher Mundungus Fletcher > > Mrs. Longbottom Mrs. Longbottom > > Mrs. Longbottom Frank Longbottom > > Dedalus Diddle Dedalus Diggle > > Mr. Lestrange Mr. Lestrange > > Real Moody The Real Alastor Moody Fridwulfa I'm glad someone pointed out that the way your original email read, the 125 characters were over the course of the series so far, not only in The Goblet of Fire. In your last email (citing the first list you proposed, and the updated list), you said you changed the list because of the following: >Lady Lindi nailed me on Dedalus Diggle by pointing out that he had >the one line in PS/SS. Curses! >But we can replace Mrs. Diggle with Fridwulfa, thanks to Morgan D. But, because of these observations by Lady Lindi and Morgan D., wouldn't you take Dedalus Diggle off your list, as well as Alastor? (As has been pointed out, his voice should not change, because the polyjuice potion should have inbued him with all the qualities of Moody. However, one could argue that when the comment was made that the reader would have to do more voices this time, he did mean characters, as the only reason he'd have to do the same voice for two characters was the potion, and perhaps isn't so much a stickler for correct details as HPfGU). So, that could make the updated list look like this: Arabella Mundungus Frank Mrs. Longbottom Fridwulfa Mr. Lestrange I do agree with Lindi, though, that there will be more people because of some people we probably won't hear from again. Some examples are Mr. Roberts, the Ministry Wizard who was dealing with the portkeys, Cedric.. not to mention earlier very minor characters such as the lady from the Knocturn Alley (hoping beyond hope that I'm not suffering from celluloid spoilage), Madam Malkin, possibly Aunt Marge... And, if for some reason I didn't read your previous email correctly (the one with the new list), then I apologize for this post. :) Aesha, who is straining to read FOTR, TT, refresh on the entire HP series and pass her Japanese final before OoP shows up on the 21st. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kcartweel at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 21:58:33 2003 From: kcartweel at yahoo.com (kcartweel) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 21:58:33 -0000 Subject: The Death in book 5 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59712 Why does everyone assume that the death in book five will be a new one? What if JKR was talking about a death that happened a long time ago like Harry's mom or dad? Maybe the fan that will die is a seperate death. JKR did say that the books are going to be more "grown up" from now on. Any thoughts? "kcartweel" From kcartweel at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 22:08:14 2003 From: kcartweel at yahoo.com (kcartweel) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 22:08:14 -0000 Subject: Who will die in books 5, 6, 7 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59713 I was thinking of starting a list of people who will have to die sooner or later. DD- Vold fears him the most and so DD has to die so that Vold fears Harry the most. Lupin- is a warewolf, peter has a silver hand , silver kills warewolfs follwing? I think that it would be really funny if snape sacrificed himself to save Harry that would be most unexpected. Any other ones? I dont think that Ron, Molly or any of them will die because they are Harry's fam. and it would be really sad if Harry doesn't have anyone (again) "kcartweel" From julia_yatsenko at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 9 22:08:59 2003 From: julia_yatsenko at yahoo.co.uk (julia_yatsenko) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 22:08:59 -0000 Subject: Hermione And Bulgaria In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59714 > > Felinia wrote: > I suspect that one of the reasons OotP is so long, again, is that it > has elements dealing with the summer break - the World Cup Quidditch Match and allt he surrounding stuff was the major element that made GoF so long, after all. > > I do think that Ron and Harry will find some way to wind up in Eastern Europe - that there will be a Bulgaria/Romania adventure connection; and don't forget, Albania is in that general neck of the woods as well! Perhaps they will discover/uncover some more information about what Voldemort has been up to. > Julia sums up: I'm truly convinced we will see at least one trip to the Eastern Europe by either or both HHR. The reasons include: 1. Bulgaria (Krum) 2. Romania (Charlie) 3. Albania (Voldemort) 4. Transylvania (vampires, Snape??) Our heroes can visit all these places as transportation is not a sore poin of the WW. Also I really like Charlie and want more Charlie action and dragons! And don't forget giants (presumably) live somewhere there... Julia From Noel.Chevalier at uregina.ca Mon Jun 9 22:09:30 2003 From: Noel.Chevalier at uregina.ca (shihtouji) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 22:09:30 -0000 Subject: Harry's Watch Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59715 Forgive an occasional lurker if this had already been done to death, but it's suddenly very important to me right now. Why is such a deal made about Harry's stopped watch in GF? More important, why is no one able to repair it magically, as Hermione did with Harry's glasses in CS? Harry's watch itself is an interesting detail, since it seems to be the only (at least one of the few!) pieces of Muggle technology that gets mentioned at Hogwarts, yet it seems to be beyond the capacity of wizards or witches to fix it when it gets broken. (Why Harry didn't take the damn thing off before he got in the water is another puzzler, but I can't help but feel this is a Big Clue about something that maybe I'll know more about in the next two weeks). Anyhow, if anyone has any speculation about the significance of Harry's watch, and its irreparability, I'd be grateful. Red Inkstone From artsylynda at aol.com Mon Jun 9 22:13:59 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 18:13:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's money (was Ron, Harry, Molly, Money) Message-ID: <1c1.acd4004.2c1660a7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59716 All this discussion about Harry helping Ron out financially, or buying him treats or presents, is interesting, but it brings up a question I've had since I started reading the series. How does an 11 year old, 12, 13, 14, 15 year old, (whichever book we're talking about) who grew up with no money of his own, figure out how to manage his money so it will last until he's grown, at least? Harry doesn't seem to worry about whether or not he'll have money even the next day, but it sure is nice to have it there when he wants to do something nice with it, or just buy his school things. Somebody somewhere should be making sure he'll have enough to get through school and a start in life (parent of grown children here, glad we had the funds necessary to get them through college and on their feet, which is probably why I wonder about how Harry or whoever manages his money). I have often wondered if Gringott's gave him an allowance, or who helps Harry manage his money. Is it invested so it's growing, or just sitting in the vault gathering dust, or what? Any ideas? Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmmears at comcast.net Mon Jun 9 22:26:42 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 22:26:42 -0000 Subject: The Twins and the Prize Money In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59717 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jesta Hijinx" wrote: > I agree with the last about finding an avenue to provide without hurting > pride; and I know this is what canon says. Thanks for that last sentence, > Lynn. I'm not picking on you in particular when I say this next, because I > think your response was, if anything, a little more balanced, reasoned and > fair than many. But I've just had to wade through a bunch that I felt > obliquely attacked my values, which I express with some vigor WRT HP - and > I'd like to state that I hold firm to my values of believing in giving and > receiving charity and generosity with grace, offering the chance to the > souls of others to do good deeds, and I have no intention of relinquishing > them - with respect - to those of others who feel that pride is a virtue. > (I was raised that pride is rather the opposite, but that's just me.) Even > if that's what JKR writes. :-) I'm keeping firmly in mind that it's a > textual device as we are discussing it here. I don't think that any of the posters have intended to attack your personal values, obliquely or otherwise. There's certainly nothing wrong with extending charity, and receiving it with grace, but there is something wrong with forcing said charity on someone you *know* will be offended by it. Whether we personally agree with them or not, JKR has written Harry and Ron with certain traits and values that make them who they are. One of those traits happens to be pride. Remember in GoF, when Harry refuses to take Cedric's advice concerning the egg because "he didn't need that sort of rubbishy help -- not from someone who kept walking down corridors hand in hand with Cho, anyway." Now, Harry needs this help from Cedric far more than Ron needs money from Harry, but he has far too much pride to accept it from a boy he resents. One of my personal favorite things about these books is that Harry and Ron really do understand one another very, very well. Harry knows that Ron would refuse his charity, if offered, and he respects him for it because if their situations were reversed, he'd feel exactly the same way. He would never dream of insulting him by directly forcing money on him or his family. The reason the episode with Harry giving F&G the triwizard gold works is that: 1) Harry still "owes" them for the Marauders Map and 2) The money never really "belongs" to Harry in that he really doesn't want it and makes it clear that he's not keeping it under any circumstances. I don't believe for a minute that Ron wants or would accept the gold from Harry, and Harry understands that. There's absolutely nothing in canon that indicates that Ron would even *want* Harry to offer it to him. Giving it to the twins is an ideal solution for Harry. Our own personal values have a lot to do with how we, as readers perceive canon (see Elkins interesting post about Affective Fallacies), but they are of no use in analyzing the behavior of the characters in the confines of the books. It would be OOC for Harry to offer money directly to Ron and his family, and it would be out of character for Ron to accept it. Jo Serenadust From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Mon Jun 9 22:29:06 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 00:29:06 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP SPOILER: Number of New Characters References: <20030609184115.38148.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002d01c32ed6$8abd0bb0$4a94253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 59718 > > > Lynn: > > First, there are some posts focusing on just GoF > but from this post it suggests that he was > speaking about all 4 books so all characters > covered in the first four are included. This > would make sense since characters from other > books are supposed to return for this one. > > Second, Dadalus Diggle already spoke in PS when > Harry and Hagrid first went into The Leaky > Cauldron so he should be striken from the list. > > Third, it is a good idea to figure out who's > voice has been heard but may not be heard here, > which would mean there are more than 9 new > voices. We probably wouldn't hear Quirrell again > and would we necessarily hear Mr. & Mrs. > Honeyduke's again? How about the unnamed > house-elves? > > (edited) Me: (Izaskun) You're forgeting Cedric. I don't think we'll hear him again unless Harry goes to the land of the death and meets him there. And that applies to Crouch Sr. and Crouch Jr. of course, and Frank Bryce and Bertha Jorkins, they're not supposed to be around again. Maybe we'll hear the Potters, I don't know. I'd make sense, of course, we know Harry hears them when the Dementors are near, so it could happen again, trip or not to the land of death. And I don't think we'll be hearing Dudley's friend, you know, the one who went to the zoo with them in PS/SS. So that makes 6 characters out of the next book. At the very least. Not to mention the people from Little Hangleron who appear in GoF, chapter 1, that makes 5 or 6 more. So I think we can safely presume that in OoP we have at the very least, 20 new characters. Cheers, Izaskun From yellows at aol.com Mon Jun 9 22:31:30 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 18:31:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Constellations and Harry Potter Message-ID: <9.12e5269a.2c1664c2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59719 In a message dated 6/9/2003 4:38:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, Red and Gold Lion writes: > ~ There was more, but I'm out of time. This is the most of the > good information, though. I find this extremely interesting, and, I think, quite probably related to the series. Would you be willing to post more of your findings? :) I especially like the Draco/Minerva story. I've always felt that she's a great character who is waiting to show us more. Perhaps that will come when (or 'if,' for those of you who disagree with this plot point) Dumbledore passes on and she takes his position. Or perhaps it will come when the Malfoys show their continued allegiance to Voldemort and Draco becomes more of just an annoying brat in class. By the way, what do we think will happen to Draco by the end of the series? I don't see him dying. I imagine he will live (though his father may not), to give us the impression that Harry will have to fight evil even after graduating from Hogwarts. Any thoughts? Anything in the stars? ;) Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Mon Jun 9 22:40:38 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 00:40:38 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: best lines in the book? References: Message-ID: <005c01c32ed8$27552150$4a94253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 59720 > Rod Chester wrote: snip...."I'm looking for the best sentences in the > Harry Potter series.... > Me (Izaskun) Well, I really love Dd's sense of humour, so most of my favorite sentences come from him: 1.- "I am not joking, Mr. Weasley," he said (Dumbledore), "though now that you mention it, I did hear an excellent one over the summer about a troll, a hag, and a leprechaun who all go into a bar...." GoF, Ch. 12. 2.- "It's lucky it's dark. I haven't blushed so much since Madam Pomfrey told me she liked my new earmuffs." PS/SS. Ch. 1 > CHeers, Izaskun > > > > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yellows at aol.com Mon Jun 9 22:48:03 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 18:48:03 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Watch Message-ID: <32.39c5e9ef.2c1668a3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59721 In a message dated 6/9/2003 6:13:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, Red Inkstone writes: > Why is such a deal made about Harry's stopped watch in GF? I'm so glad you brought this up. It bothered the heck out of me when I read GoF, and I just forgot all about it. I kept expecting JKR to come back to the watch issue at some point, but she never did. This makes me think she'll come back to it in another book. We hear very often that Dumbledore is looking old, but that isn't resolved in GoF. Perhaps the watch issue will be revisited. JKR mentions watches frequently, as I recall, but I don't have the canon to support that right now. :) The first thing I can remember about time is Hermione's time-switching for her class schedule. I wonder if JKR is hinting at something similar in mentioning Harry's broken watch over and over again. Also, if magic can repair glasses and such, why didn't Harry just repair his watch, or ask Hermione to do it? And why was it such a focal point in the first place? I think perhaps the watch will come up again. I got the sneaking feeling that nothing was *wrong* with his watch, as he thought there was, but that something magical had been *done* to it. I'm stumped. I've looked around the Internet and on some of the various transcripts, but I haven't found anything to point me in a clear direction yet that feels right. I could be missing something, but I suspect the watch must come up again in another book, the way Dumbledore's age must come up again later on. Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jun 9 22:50:30 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 22:50:30 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59722 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." wrote: Maybe it's > time for a gut-check -- time for anyone who's willing to stand on > just one OoP prediction to step forward. > Karkaroff will be the first to die in OOP. Harry will get to watch via scar-o-vision as Voldemort does our Igor in. Pippin From bkb042 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 22:54:04 2003 From: bkb042 at yahoo.com (Brian) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 22:54:04 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59723 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." wrote: > Maybe it's > time for a gut-check -- time for anyone who's willing to stand on > just one OoP prediction to step forward. > > And not just any old prediction, either. Let's say you only get to > make *one* prediction. And specificity counts. (snip) > Degree of difficulty counts, too. > > Size matters also. "Sirius will have his soul sucked out by a > dementor" is big. "Snape will be tortured to death" is > *huge.* "Harry will ride a broom" is, well . . . you know. ;-) > > But we also should have style points -- you have to explain whatever > it is that makes your prediction rock-solid. > > After OoP, we can check out the predictions and see which ones were > best. How can we decide which single prediction was best? Why, we > can *argue* about it, of course. ;-) > Time for me. I've been saying in the weekly chat for months now. Hermione is gonna die. Too general? Hermione is gonna die between pages 225-375. She will die during one of the mid-story escapades that the Trio seems to have in each of the books so far, and her death will be the final, galvanizing event to spur the entire MoM into action (both for the good and bad). Oh yeah...I almost forgot... She comes back as a ghost in the last chapter. bang. Brian From gregorylynn at attbi.com Mon Jun 9 22:14:16 2003 From: gregorylynn at attbi.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 18:14:16 -0400 Subject: Gred, Forge, Prize Money, Dress Robes, the whole deal. Message-ID: <001201c32ed4$78848100$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59724 Jesta Hijikins says: "Well, theyr'e out of school now = and opening a joke shop may not take them to many fancy occasions. I suspect dress robes are like a tux or a very formal suit - they may not need them now in their current line of work." I must disagree a tad. In *this* world anyone starting a business is going to need a suit. They're probably going to set up shop in Hogsmeade since their target market is michievous kids. Since they are well known in those parts as *being* mischievous kids they are going to need to take steps to make sure that they project a serious businesslike image when it is required. If nothing else, they are going to have to find shop space, living quarters, and presumably both warehouse space and lab space (which is to say, some place explosion proof). They can easily get Ron some new dress robes by saying there was a buy two get one free (or half off or whatever) type deal at the robe shop. Were I them, I would think it would be fairly easy to keep the money quiet in this whole thing, and it would quite probably be fairly smart business sense too. They can start off pretty small. A small shop in Hogsmeade and perhaps a cart in Diagon Alley at likely times, which is to say shortly after the Hogwarts letters are delivered. Conserve capital as much as possible and all they have to do is pretend they are slightly more successful than they really are. Since I suspect they are likely to be fairly successful it shouldn't be too hard. ___________ Gregory Lynn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Mon Jun 9 23:18:00 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 23:18:00 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's money (was Ron, Harry, Molly, Money) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59725 Dear Lynda: >All this discussion about Harry helping Ron out financially, or buying him >treats or presents, is interesting, but it brings up a question I've had >since I >started reading the series. How does an 11 year old, 12, 13, 14, 15 year >old, (whichever book we're talking about) who grew up with no money of his >own, >figure out how to manage his money so it will last until he's grown, at >least? This is a great question, and one that's crossed my mind from time to time. He can have had none from the Dursleys, and certainly no formal instruction. But given the Dursleys' material orientation, perhaps he overheard or witnessed budgeting and planning there. Even given that, I would think the natural temptation would be to rebel against that. :-) I'm kind of amazed he didn't go on a spending spree right after he opened the Gringott's vault. >Harry doesn't seem to worry about whether or not he'll have money even the >next day, but it sure is nice to have it there when he wants to do >something >nice with it, or just buy his school things. Somebody somewhere should be >making >sure he'll have enough to get through school and a start in life (parent of >grown children here, glad we had the funds necessary to get them through >college and on their feet, which is probably why I wonder about how Harry >or whoever >manages his money). I have often wondered if Gringott's gave him an >allowance, or who helps Harry manage his money. Is it invested so it's >growing, or >just sitting in the vault gathering dust, or what? Any ideas? > >Lynda >* * * >"Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA > I wonder about this as well. I would assume that the money in Gringott's is invested - any healthy economy needs investors and venture capital in some form - but I wonder if Gringott's sends out financial statements and has advisors and such. And he's not of age - are there trustees involved? he seemed to just waltz in and help himself. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From gregorylynn at attbi.com Mon Jun 9 22:53:25 2003 From: gregorylynn at attbi.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 18:53:25 -0400 Subject: OOP Spoiler, Number of new Characters Message-ID: <001d01c32ed9$f18c71c0$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59726 Cindy: "So that means JKR will introduce only one new character in OoP! Man, we're good, huh? ;-) Cindy -- betting this single new character will be female and will have something to do with Voldemort's first reign of terror" A couple points if I may. The Leaky Cauldron points to this (http://www.cnn.com/2000/books/news/07/18/jim.dale/) article wherein the relevant line is "In fact, on the Listening Library's just-released "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire," Dale portrays 125 voices in all." So the 125 is a reference to Goblet of Fire alone. The Leaky Cauldron also provides this quote from the Wall Street Journal, "The tale of the teenage wizard occupies 17 cassette tapes and 23 compact discs. Jim Dale, who narrated the four earlier Harry Potter audiobooks, takes on the personas of 134 different characters this time around." So, there were 125 characters with lines in GoF and 134 in OotP. However, there are characters that weren't in GoF that are likely returning, and likely some that aren't. I guess my only point is that knowing there are 134 characters really only tells us that there's 134 characters (with speaking lines, of course). ___________ Gregory Lynn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pennylin at swbell.net Mon Jun 9 23:29:02 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (pennylin) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 18:29:02 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction References: Message-ID: <061101c32ede$e9a6dc70$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 59727 Hi -- <<<<<<<--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." wrote: Maybe it's > time for a gut-check -- time for anyone who's willing to stand on > just one OoP prediction to step forward.>>>>>>>> > FITD (or the romances will be muddled throughout OoP) -- Hermione likes Harry, not Ron. It's clear to me from the interview JKR gave with Steve Kloves on the DVD of CoS that since "certain feelings" relate to all 3 members of the Trio, that Harry must be involved. He must at some point, therefore, either fall for Hermione or she must fall for him (or maybe Harry falls for Ron). But, in any case, Harry is somehow involved in inter-Trio romance by the author's own admission. So, my money is on FITD or some variant thereof playing out in OoP. Yeah, I'll stand by that. :--) Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aashby.aashby at verizon.net Mon Jun 9 23:27:47 2003 From: aashby.aashby at verizon.net (theatresm2002) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 23:27:47 -0000 Subject: Harry's Watch In-Reply-To: <32.39c5e9ef.2c1668a3@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59728 > JKR mentions watches frequently, as I recall, but I don't have the canon to > support that right now. Dumbledore's watch gets a detailed mention at the beginning of PS/SS: JKR notes that it doesn't have a typical watchface, but appears to show the alignment of the planets. theatresm From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Mon Jun 9 23:36:55 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 23:36:55 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron, Harry, Molly, and MONEY Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59729 > > the buying of treats > > on the train the first day (see, Harry thought of a gracious way to say >"I > > bought all this, help me eat it all!") and the Omnioculars. > >Yes, and look what an uncomfortable fuss Ron made about those omnioculars >when he found out the leprechaun gold he paid Harry back with disappeared. >Harry >may well feel that when he tries to do something nice moneywise it only >exacerbates Ron's titchiness about money. > >P'raps if Ron learned to receive with grace, Harry might be less hesitant >about giving :) Has to be a two way street methinks :) > Oh, indeed. No doubt. But Harry is determined - the closing episode wherein he tells Gred and Forge to buy the new dress robes and say they're from them. :-) Bravo, Harry. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From ggershman77 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 23:44:27 2003 From: ggershman77 at yahoo.com (ggershman77) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 23:44:27 -0000 Subject: OotP Prediction - Patterns in Potter Post Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59730 Havent been here in a while, but I recently posted my prognostication for OotP, which includes a juicy tidbit about all the other books as well. Check it out at http://hpprogs.blogspot.com/ Here is the beginning: We have spoken before about the themes of each of the books. In short, Book 1=power, Book 2=identity, 3=emotions, 4=pride. In each book, Harry confronts and learns to master the challenges of the theme presented. These are all "dark arts," so to speak. If we look back, we realize that the professor for that class we all love, "Defense Against the Dark Arts" is intimately connected with that theme. Just as an illustration, in Book 1, Prof. Quirrell lusts after power, to the point where he becomes completely corrupted by it. Book 2, Lockhart's thirst for the spotlight consumes his identity, causing him to commit grievous acts of memory erasure to ensure his celebrity status (and Harry confronts this same aspect of his fame). Book 3, Lupin, who is not a bad character, none-the-less teaches Harry what incredible will power it takes to control our primal emotions and urges, and that sometimes, we cant. And of course, in Book 4, Moody/Crouch is the epitome of pride, thirsting for his master's approval, and proud of his part in restoring him to power. That is just a quick rundown (more to come in the next 2 weeks!). On to book 5. Greg From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Mon Jun 9 23:45:27 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 23:45:27 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron, Harry, Molly, and MONEY Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59731 Greetings; >Let me first point out the Harry is a kid with his whole life ahead of >him. IT'S NOT HIS JOB to take care of the adults around him; it's >their job to take care of him; a kid. > Whoa. It's *never* too early to learn to do what you can for others. Kids aren't *owed* caretaking from all adults around them. The Weasleys aren't kin; they do what they do out of the goodness of their hearts and have Harry to stay because they care and he's a friend of their boys. You are, however, on to a good idea later when you say: >Side note, once upon a midnight dreary while I pondered weak and >weary, the idea of Harry, Hermione, and Ron pooling their money, >although a bulk of the money would come from Harry, second Hermione, >and least from Ron, and buy the Weasley's a new owl for Christmas or >as a thank you gift for their hostpitality. Since the present would be >to Ron's parents, and everyone one would kick in money, no one would >see it as charity. The Weaselys might refuse at first, but it's very >impolite to refuse a gift beyond a token refusal. Just a thought I had. > I had this thought a while ago, but spaced it before I could mention it - it's similar to yours, but not as nice as in yours is more specific: yes, a hospitality gift would have been most appropriate from Harry and Hermione since the Weasleys had them for a few weeks total - a new owl for the family, a "gift certificate", if the WW has such things, to someplace like Flourish & Blotts, some household item that they had noticed was worn and could stand replacing, such as the WW equivalent of a crockpot...nothing elaborate or ostentatious, like a new car to replace the Anglia, but something to say "thank you for having us to stay - we can't exactly return the favor in kind, but we are basically well-mannered and good hearted kids and we appreciate it more than words can say". (I'm not being tiresome and going "I thought of that too": I really did have an idea that was similar but not as well fleshed out while at work a few weeks ago, when I couldn't post.) Felinia _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 23:52:25 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 16:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Watch In-Reply-To: <32.39c5e9ef.2c1668a3@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030609235225.99001.qmail@web40510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59732 --- yellows at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/9/2003 6:13:51 PM Eastern > Standard Time, Red Inkstone > writes: > > > Why is such a deal made about Harry's stopped > watch in GF? Kathryn: Unlurking for a bit, I always connected the stopped watch to the whole theme of time throughout GoF and a symbol of the completion of the second task. Some of my favorite quotes from GoF have to do with time because Harry always wants more of it ("It is a strange thing, but when you are dreading something, and would give anything to slow down time, it has a disobliging habit of speeding up.") Prior to the first and second tasks, Harry is constantly wishing to slow down time and get more of it. Particularly when it's getting down to the wire and he still hasn't figured out the egg, and then sleeps in the morning of the 2nd task (possibly a reason the watch stayed on, he was in a hurry cause he was late). So then after he rushes and takes too long on the 2nd task, his watch has stopped. I can't really explain it, what it means or anything, but it seems like a symbolic stopping. A sign that things have calmed down. That even if only for a brief moment, time has stopped to give Harry a chance to catch up. Just a thought:) ~Kathryn ...who reserved OOP at a different Borders today because the 1st place isn't having a party=P __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From rvotaw at i-55.com Tue Jun 10 00:25:21 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 19:25:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OotP Prediction - Patterns in Potter Post References: Message-ID: <004b01c32ee6$c7847b90$5b9ccdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 59733 Greg wrote: > Here is the beginning: > > We have spoken before about the themes of each of the books. In > short, Book 1=power, Book 2=identity, 3=emotions, 4=pride. I find this sort of thing interesting, and as I've been listening to Goblet of Fire (first time to listen to the CD's, obviously not the first time to read it) I've been thinking of Harry's mindframe and disposition in each book. In Book 1 Harry was curious, fascinated, and a bit unsure of himself. In Book 2 he felt more at home, but soon developed mixed emotions--he was uncertain about himself, hesitant to trust anyone (particulary with hearing voices) and so on. In Book 3 Harry learned more about his past, but not in the way he'd have chosen. He experiences fear, betrayal, and hatred. His hatred of Sirius when he learned about Sirius's "betrayal" far outweighed his fear when he was told Sirius was after him. In Goblet of Fire, Harry experiences frustration beyond any he had in the past. He's forced into something he's not ready for, for a while loses all of his friends (with the exception of Hermione and Hagrid), and again experiences betrayal (Fake!Moody), not to mention trauma that no one should ever endure (the entire graveyard scene--mental, physical, and emotional). So what does OotP hold for Harry? Surely there will be *some* happy times, but what else will Harry face? Will he be hunted or haunted? Fear or be feared? Be respected or ridiculed? As you can see, I'm not very good at summing things up in a single word. If anybody wants to give it a try, go right ahead. :) Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From odilefalaise at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 00:36:47 2003 From: odilefalaise at yahoo.com (Odile Falaise) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Constellations, Harry Potter and Draco In-Reply-To: <9.12e5269a.2c1664c2@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030610003647.34988.qmail@web13106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59734 Responding to Red & Gold Lion's really kewl post about consellations and Harry Potter, Brief Chronicles wrote: >>>By the way, what do we think will happen to Draco by the end of the series? I don't see him dying. I imagine he will live (though his father may not), to give us the impression that Harry will have to fight evil even after graduating from Hogwarts.<<< And now Odile (that would be me): How I love the symbolic aspect of the Harry Potterverse. JKR is masterful at mixing and embellishing, yet staying true to the classic "formula" of epic storytelling. As I do not have the patience to expound on that angle (others have done so before me anyhow!), I'd like to just jump in on the possible fate of our Draco. The way I see it: Harry is the brave and chivalrous Gryffindor. Who or what is more brave and chivalrous than a knight? The patron saint of England is Saint George - Saint George is best known for killing a dragon. [Plus, I thought it was cool when Kenneth Branagh signed up for TCTMNBN II - I kept expecting him to shout (as he did in Henry V): "...and on this charge cry God for Harry! England! And Saint George!"] So, IMNSHO, I expect a big showdown between Harry and Draco, and while I doubt Harry will actually *kill* Draco (at least not intentially), I expect Harry will win the day. Or not. ^_~ Just my two knuts. Odile wondering if wicked bad naughty evil Zoot will make an appearance at Gryffindor tower before book seven... From p_prideaux at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 9 23:02:39 2003 From: p_prideaux at yahoo.co.uk (Paul Prideaux) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 23:02:39 -0000 Subject: Eileen's *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction - Lupin Dies In-Reply-To: <20030609211554.24035.qmail@web20405.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59735 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Eileen wrote: > [...] Dumbledore is just > way too tired to live on, but he's also too important > to go in Book V. Hmm, yes, I agree. However, the mentor/protector usually dies in stories of this kind, resulting in an "oh no, now we're screwed" kind of atmosphere before the hero ultimately triumphs. There's plenty of examples, a good one being in Star Wars, where Obi-Wan is killed leaving Luke undertrained and underprotected. However, one thing the books have never been is predictable, so it's anyones guess if this common "good vs evil" plot line will be maintained. =) Pryd. x From p_prideaux at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 9 23:11:23 2003 From: p_prideaux at yahoo.co.uk (Paul Prideaux) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 23:11:23 -0000 Subject: What other curse scar? In-Reply-To: <20030609211944.68903.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59736 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, danielle dassero wrote: > Correction, the line is :You'll forgive me, > Dumbledore, but I've never heard of a curse scar > acting as an alrm bell before....." My copy of GoF (UK paperback) does not have the word "never" in that line. It's at the top of p.613 Is this an error that has since been corrected? When I read it, it did seem a little odd but I decided it meant that Fudge didn't see the scar hurting as anything extraordinary as he'd heard of it happening before. Pryd. x From edbrown at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 9 23:17:54 2003 From: edbrown at bellatlantic.net (ericvsthem) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 23:17:54 -0000 Subject: Harry's Watch In-Reply-To: <32.39c5e9ef.2c1668a3@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59737 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/9/2003 6:13:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, Red Inkstone > writes: > > Why is such a deal made about Harry's stopped watch in GF? I didn't catch this until my second reading through GF. My guess is that the watch stopped working as most Muggle devices tend to inside very magical places, like Hogwarts. Of course, it could have stopped working during one of the two times HP was injured playing Quidditch, or during the 2nd task in GF (I don't recall if the note about the watch not working was before or afte the 2nd task). HP gets knocked around quite a bit in the first 4 books, so its hard to say when the watch stopped working, or what might have caused it to stop working. As for *why* JKR bothers to mention this at all - your guess is as good as mine. However, it seems that this is probably a clue or a plot device for later books.. e r i c From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 23:28:47 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Bond) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 16:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who will die in books 5, 6, 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030609232847.60829.qmail@web20714.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59738 I think the number one person that is either going to have to die or be over thrown is Dumbledore. My reason for that is that Hogwarts is a essentially safe place for Harry, at least at the time being. Dumbledore's death would open the window for somebody on the school governors board to elect a new headmaster. My pick is Lucius. Lucius will take over Hogwarts and it will no longer be safe for Harry their...it would also give Voldemort a window into the place. I really think other than him there are no sure things. I actually do believe at least one Weasley will die before the end of the books. However, I do not know which. My money is on Ron...but then again who knows. ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eliwamp at hotmail.com Mon Jun 9 23:54:58 2003 From: eliwamp at hotmail.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 18:54:58 -0500 Subject: newbie, Mc Gonagall & eyes, L Malfoy and St Mungo's Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59739 Hi i'm Chris, sahm to an almost Weasley sized family, in the us. The detail missing form the first 4 books that is really chapping my butt is what color Mc Gonagall's eyes are. I have read, and re-read the books myself, checked the lexicon, and chat transcripts, but found nothing. There has to be a reason this hasn't been revealed yet. As for Lucius Malfoy's gifts to St Mungo's I wonder if it could be to buy Dr's, orderlies, etc off to let any former DE's out once Voldemort does regain his strength. It is easy to concieve that a few ended up in St Mungo's pretending to be victims of Voldemorts to escape Azkaban. Or, what if the gifts are to set them up to lock up innocent, sane people once Voldemort regains his strength? Chris Mom to: The Martinez Munchers _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From renimar at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 00:05:15 2003 From: renimar at yahoo.com (M. J. Pascual) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 00:05:15 -0000 Subject: Names in goblet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59740 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > The Sergeant Majorette says: > This is something that really bothers me, and I have the sinking > feeling that it is merely a plot hole; namely, how dumb does a magic > object have to be to be fooled into thinking there could be a > *fourth" entrant in a *tri*-wizard tournament? > --JDR I can easily imagine that crafting magical items -- essentially objects empowered (by magic) to automate things -- as the WW equivalent to machinery and software. The Sorting Hat is the equivalent to a university's admissions application which tries to balance faculties and schools given a set of criteria, for example. (High scores in mathematics? Science admission!) As such, the Tri-Wizard Cup was enchanted ("programmed") to accept paper with names and schools ("input") and return one person from each school who best fits competition criteria ("output"). Anybody who codes for a living knows this maxim all too well: A computer does _exactly_ everything you tell it to. Not what you _want_. The fact it's called "Tri-Wizard Cup" is irrelevant. It could be called "The Culling Cup". All that matters, is that it was instructed to accept names with schools, group the schools uniquely, and select one from each of those groups. The practice of only allowing students from three schools to enter, hid this design/implementation flaw ("bug"). Now, I know fake-Moody said it was "hoodwinked" into accepted Harry's name, but really... can you accept the word of a Voldemort supporter at face value? It may very well have been as easy as 'Harry Potter - Nyah, nyah' on a scrap of parchment and slipped in during the evening. --Mark From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 00:55:30 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hagrid's Death / Barty Jr's Real Father / AK+Lily & My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030610005530.78148.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59741 Amy, on Lupin: >He will kill himself. But why I hear >you cry! What could Lupin possible do >that would make him commit harri-karri. >Well ladies and gentlemen of the jury, >Lupin is going to eat Denis Creevey. Cindy, after a spit take: > Tell us, Amy. Is Lupin going to rip > little Denis Creevey limb from > limb right there in the main dining > room, or will this bit of bloodletting > take place deep within the darkest > regions of the Forbidden Forest? ;-) I vote for the forest and that the hari-kari be assisted by a Creevey grandmother...who'd be wearing a little red riding hood. Not that I want Lupin to die...really! * * * So...if I make nebulous and baseless predictions, can I make more than just one? :) (1) Hagrid dies at the tail of one Norwegian Ridgeback named Norbert. What? Doesn't ALL of Hagrid's pets wag their tails when they hear 'Mummy' call their names? :) Not that I want Hagrid to die...really! (2) Crouch Sr. was cuckolded by the Dark Lord. Perhaps suspicions of this fueled Crouch Sr.'s obsession with eliminating Voldemort while employing methods as cruel as the DE's - it's personal, not ideological. Besides, I suspect that Barty Jr. is a son in search of his real father [Crouch Sr.: "You are no son of mine!"] and Voldemort's got serious paternal issues; what better way to explore these issues than to bestow upon Patricidal Maniac his very own son? Too bad Barty Jr.'s been kissed...or he could carry on the family tradition, so to speak. (3) Avada Kedavra is a cannibalistic curse. When used on Muggles, the benefit to the one who performed the curse is similar to the benefit of drinking unicorn blood. This could explain how Voldemort's main objective, to conquer death, go so well with the Death Eaters' creed, perhaps manifested in Lucius Malfoy's opposition to Arthur Weasley's "Muggle PROTECTION Act." Y'know, it's interesting that Voldemort didn't just lose his store of life force and become less than even the meanest ghost when his AK backfired - he also transferred some of his own powers to Harry. As Dumbledore said, it's not something Voldemort intended to do. Perhaps a backfired AK is much like the backfired memory charm of Lockhart's or the "eat slugs!" curse of Ron's: what was suppose to happen to the cursed happens to the one who performed the curse. I suspect that AK'ing a wizard/witch would not only yield a harvest of life force but also the powers which makes a witch/wizard magical. I suspect that Lily have figured out a 'legacy' charm, for lack of a canon term. Such a charm would be the antithesis of the AK in that the transfer of power is NOT to the one performing the spell. Perhaps "Lily's sacrifice" refers to giving up her magical abilities in order to cast her legacy charm which then reverses the AK, once Voldemort performs it. Or maybe no such legacy charm is necessary. Perhaps magical powers WILLINGLY GIVEN up by Lily deflected Voldemort's curse that intended to FORCIBLY TAKE such powers; this then led to Voldemort UNKNOWINGLY GIVING his own powers to Harry, the only human being left alive there. Ironic, no? Either way, such a charm would be counter-intuitive to Voldemort's completely self-centered world view. Little wonder this is a protection he did not foresee. If Lily is the only, or one of few to know of such a charm, no wonder the AK has not yet been successfully blocked even by mothers who love their children as much as Lily loves Harry. These mothers had motive but not the means. Petra: "finish OotP in 37 hrs?!" a n :) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From MsLeneLarsen at hotmail.com Tue Jun 10 00:43:48 2003 From: MsLeneLarsen at hotmail.com (lene_looney_larsen) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 00:43:48 -0000 Subject: best lines in the book? In-Reply-To: <20030609194310.94248.qmail@web12706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59742 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, ~Ivy~ wrote: > chesterr wrote: > > Hi > I'm writing a piece for The Courier-Mail (daily newspaper in > Brisbane, Australia) looking at the best sentences in the Harry > Potter series. > > Hello... I'm a newbie in here.. got introduced to this page by my mother, who is reading a lot in here. My all time favorite line in the books are from CoS page 220 UK paperback : "You meen you're running away?" said Harry disbelievingly. "After all that stuff you did in your books?" "books can be misleading" said Lockhart delicately "You wrote them!!!" Harry shouted I just think that this line is hilarious.. "Voldemort" Said Riddle softly "Is my past, present and future, Harry Potter..." I really just like the way that sound, well that's just me.. I love Voldemort in every shape he has in all of the books.. Page 85 UK paperback, GoF "what's happening at hogwarts, dad?" Said Fred at once. "what were they talking about?" "you'll find out soon enough," Said Mr. weasley smiling. "It's classified information, until such time when the ministry decides to release it," said Percy stiffly. "Mr. Crouch was quite right not to disclose it." "Oh, shut up weatherby," said Fred That's about it... there are loads of fun lines and dialouges in these books and these were just a few.. :) Lene_looney_Larsen From crunchy2733 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 00:56:43 2003 From: crunchy2733 at yahoo.com (Trina Millett) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:56:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OOP Prediction Message-ID: <20030610005643.7380.qmail@web12701.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59743 A few days ago I posted my first message (ever) and I'd like to reiterate the same prediction for this wonderful thread. I believe Ginny will die while saving Harry's life. She owes him a life debt for her rescue from the COS and probably feels much guilt about her part in that story. Therefore, she will die willingly and lovingly to save her special hero. (In case anyone is interested in my more detailed first post, it's #59474.) Trina __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From odilefalaise at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 00:58:49 2003 From: odilefalaise at yahoo.com (Odile Falaise) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:58:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: best lines in the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030610005849.48002.qmail@web13101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59744 Chester: >>> Hi I'm writing a piece for The Courier-Mail (daily newspaper in Brisbane, Australia) looking at the best sentences in the Harry Potter series. ...am after nominations from fellow HP fans. <<< Odile: Here are two of my favorites: "Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can't see where it keeps its brain." Mr Weasley to his daughter Ginny in Chamber of Secrets (p 242 UK pb) [Lavender Brown]: 'Oh, Professor, look! I think I've got an unaspected planet! Oooh, which one's that, Professor?' 'It is Uranus, my dear,' said Professor Trelawney, peering down at the chart. 'Can I have a look at Uranus, too, Lavender?' said Ron. [Goblet of Fire (p 178 UK pb) Good luck with your story - please post a link to it when it is finished! ^_^ From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 01:05:54 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 18:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030610010554.16680.qmail@web21004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59745 Just one little observation. We sure are a grim, gruesome lot. We've just about killed off everybody in the story (including Harry at times!) and usually in a grim, soul-wrentching horrible manner (little somebody having to watch somebody else get slowly tortured to death, etc). Does ANYBODY have a happy prediction?? Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Tue Jun 10 01:16:38 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 20:16:38 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction References: Message-ID: <001201c32eed$f2753400$3704a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 59746 > And not just any old prediction, either. Let's say you only get to > make *one* prediction. And specificity counts. Sure, you could go > with "Mrs. Figg will be the DADA teacher" if you like. > Better, though, might be "Mrs. Figg will be the DADA teacher and will > not get on well with McGonagall." :::Amandageist glides into the room; she mutters in an aside to Cindy, "I'll deal with you *later*!" Cindy gulps and realizes that her idea of timing her post so that 7200+ other members could post Amandageist's favorite theory before she had her daily hour online at night might *not* have been the brightest idea.::: Okay. I have a reputation to maintain here. And I will post this now, before I go through the twelve hours of posts since Cindy made her challenge... It will turn out that Snape loved Lily, still loves Lily, and protects Harry out of his love for her (possibly a promise he made her), despite how he hated James, still hates James, and is reminded of James every damned time he sees Harry. Staring at Harry is painful because Harry has his mother's eyes, which makes Snape even nastier as he deals with the conflicting emotions. (sneaks in a negative prediction: Snape is NOT a vampire.) :::exit Amandageist stage left; she is heard to be muttering something about a spell that turns giant paddles into rubber snakes::: ~Amanda, founding LOON, primaGeist, premier Snapologist From dicentra at xmission.com Tue Jun 10 01:24:32 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (Dicentra spectabilis) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 01:24:32 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59747 Stoned!Harry. 'nuff sed. --Dicentra, referring folks to http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html#ps for details From maidne at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 01:38:54 2003 From: maidne at yahoo.com (maidne) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 01:38:54 -0000 Subject: best lines in the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59748 Mine is any exchange between Ron and Hermione involving "Hogwarts, A History". For example: "Honestly! Aren't you two ever going to read Hogwarts, A History?" "Why should we, when we have you around?" Or: "Everyone knows that! Well, everyone who's read Hogwarts, A History." "Just you, then." :D Susan From heidit at netbox.com Tue Jun 10 01:37:07 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 21:37:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59749 > And not just any old prediction, either. Let's say you only get to > make *one* prediction. And specificity counts. Well, given that one of my predictions from about 18 months ago - that Ron would be Keeper - seems to have already been shown as true, and as I'm already on the record discussing various predictions, including Draco being made a prefect, in Book Magazine, I'll share two specific predictions: 1. We will not learn in OoTP that Ron was brainwashed into evil thru his childhood by a wand-stealing-Wormtail-transformed-into-human-form-again. No, that will be in book 6 or 7. 2. For the prediction about something that will actually be in Book 5, here goes: We will learn more about wizarding careers - including what Lucius actually does, whether Molly works outside the home, or ever has, and what Lily and/or James did before they were killed. In other words, we'll have a larger look into the greater wizarding world. Heidi Tandy *Ask me about Nimbus - 2003* Http://www.hp2003.org From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Tue Jun 10 01:44:39 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 21:44:39 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: best lines in the book? Message-ID: <1e0.ab3f98b.2c169207@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59750 In a message dated 6/9/2003 9:00:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, odilefalaise at yahoo.com writes: > >>> Hi I'm writing a piece for The Courier-Mail (daily > newspaper in Brisbane, Australia) looking at the best > sentences in the Harry Potter series. ...am after > nominations from fellow HP fans. <<< I have a few ^^ >From PoA: (during the crystal gazing lesson) "Would anyone like me to help them interpret the shadowy portents within their Orb?" she (Trelawney) murmered overe the clinking of her bangles. "I don't need help," Ron whispered. "It's obvious waht this means. There's going to be loads of fog tonight." Again from PoA: (while reading tea leaves) "Right, you've got a crooked sort of cross..." He (Harry) consulted Unfogging the future. "That means you're going to have 'trials and suffering'-sorry about that-but there's something that could be the sun...hang on...that means 'great happiness'...so you're going to suffer but be very happy..." There's another one (Involving Divination, oddly)...but I can't seem to remember where the quote is. Can anyone help? it's the one where Ron has something like (imitating Trelawney) "When two saturns (or whatever planet) appear that means somemewhere a midget in glasses is being born." ----Help? Anyone? I have a billion others...most of them more serious. But I know people like funny ones, so I posted those. I'm sure I'll find more that I just HAVE to submit. I really need to read the books again XP ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From david_p at istop.com Tue Jun 10 01:59:35 2003 From: david_p at istop.com (David Paterson) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 01:59:35 -0000 Subject: OOP: The mirror of Erised In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59751 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vicky_gwosdz" wrote: > But in PS, when Ron looks in the mirror, he sees himself amongst > other things as captain of the Quidditch team. Now, I remember > reading on some site (forgot which one) that in > book 5 (or maybe a later book), Ron would be watcher for the > Quidditch team. > If he ends up captain of the team, then this might mean that the > mirror does do more then just reflect wishes. I've often considered Erised as being more than initially meets the eye (as it were). Trelawny might be well advised to gaze into the mirror periodically. Consider Harry: He's twice looked in the mirror: the first time, he saw himself with his parents (a vision that has yet to come true); the second time, he saw himself getting the Philospoher's Stone. So from a Harry Potter perspective, the mirror is 50% successful. (I'm counting his three initial visits as a single vision). With Ron's looming acceptance on the Quidditch team, it may be that Ron's vision will also come to pass. And Dumbledore, somewhat cryptic as always, said "I see myself holding a pair of thick, woollen socks." which I have associated with his support of Dobby, the emancipated House Elf, and indeed freedom for other magical creatures. If you accept the Ron and Dumbledore visions as being vindicated by subsequent events, we have 75% of the Erised visions coming to pass - which makes me suspicious that Harry may well rejoin his family by the end of the series. And, as death is permanent, Lily and James will not be coming back; Harry can only join them in death. Certainly, Dumbledore gave another convincing description of the mirror, but I'm leery of some of his exposition - he's left out enough details in other situations to make me take his pronouncements with a grain of salt. David From cindysphynx at comcast.net Tue Jun 10 02:07:57 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 02:07:57 -0000 Subject: OOP SPOILER: Number of new Characters In-Reply-To: <001d01c32ed9$f18c71c0$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59752 Gregory wrote: >the relevant line is "In fact, on the Listening Library's just- >released "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire," Dale portrays 125 >voices in all." So the 125 is a reference to Goblet of Fire alone. Haaaaang on a minute! Are you saying there were 125 different voices in Goblet of Fire alone? How can that possibly be? No. I don't believe it. You know what this means, don't you? It means I have to do a count. Let's see. Here are the characters with speaking lines in Chapter One of GoF: The Riddles' Maid "Several People" Woman at the Bar Cook Man at the Bar Landlord Woman in the Corner Dot Wormtail Voldemort Frank I dunno. 11 characters, many with only a single line of dialogue. I dunno if there will really be 125 characters with speaking lines by the end. Maybe. Cindy -- who really likes Brian's Hermione prediction and who is squinting hard at everyone who made more than one prediction ;-) From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Jun 10 02:13:24 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 22:13:24 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP SPOILER: Number of new Characters Message-ID: <6.12aa56f6.2c1698c4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59753 In a message dated 6/9/2003 10:09:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cindysphynx at comcast.net writes: > Are you saying there were 125 different voices in Goblet of Fire > alone? How can that possibly be? No. I don't believe it. > Well, let's see - some of those "voices" may have only one or two lines, like Archie...but they all count in the "body count". With all the people at the QWC, I can easily figure 125+.... Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 02:14:29 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 02:14:29 -0000 Subject: best lines in the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59754 Personally, I'm a big fan of this exchange in PoA: - - - - "Would anyone like me to help them interpret the shadowy portents within their Orb?" she [Professor Trelawney] murmured over the clinking of her bangles. "I don't need help," Ron whispered. "It's obvious what this means. There's going to be loads of fog tonight." - - - - I don't know why, but that line makes me laugh out loud every time I read it, no matter how many times I've heard it before. As for a serious quote, I'm a big fan of the speech someone mentioned earlier that Dumbledore made about Cedric and choosing between what is right and what is easy. -Laura (I'd say I'm back from lurking, but I haven't even been reading lately...) From linlou43 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 02:18:12 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 02:18:12 -0000 Subject: Names in goblet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59755 > > The Sergeant Majorette says: > > This is something that really bothers me, and I have the sinking > > feeling that it is merely a plot hole; namely, how dumb does a > magic > > object have to be to be fooled into thinking there could be a > > *fourth" entrant in a *tri*-wizard tournament? Me(Linda): I think the quote in question is this " "Because they hoodwinked a very powerful magical object!" said Moody. "It would have needed an exceptionally strong Confundus Charm to bamboozle that goblet into forgetting that the only three schools compete in the tournament..." " I always read the passage to mean that the Goblet was sentient to the same extent that the sorting hat is sentient. It has an intelligence of it's own, put there hundreds of years before by the originators of the tournament. IMO, Moody/Crouch wouldn't be lying here- not in front of Dumbledore, Kakaroff and Madam Maxine. As the heads of their repective schools they would undoubtably know what the goblet was and was not capable of and would see through any lie. There is no reason for M/C to jeapordize his cover this early in the game. I think the goblet knew exactly how many schools were supposed to be competing. M/C refers to a Confundus charm. In PoA, Snape maintained that HHR had been been "confounded". I think that they were both talking about the same charm. If that is the case, it makes me wonder how much conciousness the goblet has if the same charm that would be used on a human is necessary to decieve it. -Linda...just my two knuts From linlou43 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 02:37:21 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 02:37:21 -0000 Subject: best lines in the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59756 IMO, some of the best quotes have come from Lockhart: "Hello," he said. "Odd sort of place, this, isn't it? DO you live here?" and "Amazing! Amazing! This is just like magic!" And I have to include one from Dumbledore...just because. "I seem to remember telling you both that I would have to expell you if you broke anymore school rules" said Dumbledore. ... "Which goes to show the best of us must sometimes eat our words." Just had to put in my two knuts. _Linda From kemp at arcom.com.au Tue Jun 10 03:05:33 2003 From: kemp at arcom.com.au (pickle_jimmy) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 03:05:33 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59757 Sorry for those looking for a cheerful prediction... Fred Weasley will die!! Fred and George have had a big part in HP since the beginning. For them to dissolve into the background as owners of a Joke Shop would be a waste. They owe Harry big for the money he gave them at the end of GoF and they will be wanting to pay them back - they are also "fan's of Harry's" So... Fred and George will come to Harry's aid in book 5 to pay back his gift, and Fred will be killed. This will give George the drive to join the fight against evil - he wont give up his dream of running the Joke Shop, but he will put that on hold until the end of Voldemort. Why Fred and not George?? He is always named first in the duo and so will be missed more than if you dropped the George off the end (sorry Fred, it's not a real good reason for you to die and not your brother, but I had to make the call) This will also stop all the confusion that Molly suffers with the twins. George will finally be able to wear a sweater without a G on the front. Pickle (the voice of doom) Jimmy From awillia2 at gladstone.uoregon.edu Mon Jun 9 23:37:27 2003 From: awillia2 at gladstone.uoregon.edu (Aesha Williams) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 16:37:27 -0700 Subject: The list of vocal characters Message-ID: <001001c32ee0$16e0f760$72d2df80@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 59758 Here is a list of characters who I believe have spoken in the Harry Potter series. Thank goodness for the Lexicon, because I can't find my copy of SS, and just used the "Which Witch" list to look through the characters. Thank you Steve!! :) 1. Hannah Abbot 2. Archie 3. Avery 4. Ludo Bagman 5. Basil 6. Professor Binns 7. Sirius Black 8. Mr. Borgin 9. Lavendar Brown 10. Sir Cadogan 11. Cho Chang 12. Mr. Crabbe 13. Crabbe (if we count the time Ron spoke as Crabbe using Polyjuice potion) 14. Colin Creevey 15. Dennis Creevey 16. Doris Crockford 17. Barty Crouch, Sr. 18. Barty Crouch, Jr. 19. Fleur Delacour 20. Dedalus Diggle 21. Amos Diggory 22. Cedric Digory 23. Mrs. Diggory 24. Albus Dumbledore 25. The Fat Lady 26. Argus Filch 27. Justin Fitch-Fletchley 28. Mrs. Finnegan 29. Marcus Flint 30. Professor Filius Flitwick 31. Cornelius Fudge 32. Gregory Goyle (if we count Harry speaking as Goyle while using Polyjuice Potion) 33. Mr. Goyle 34. Hermione Granger 35. Professor Grubbly-Plank 36. Rubeus Hagrid 37. Madam Hooch 38. Angelina Johnson 39. Lee Jordan 40. Bertha Jorkins 41. Igor Karkaroff 42. Kevin 43. Kevin's mom 44. Viktor Krum 45. Mrs. Lestrange 46. Gilderoy Lockheart 47. Neville Longbottom 48. Remus Lupin 49. Bulgarian Minister of Magic (Oblansk? Obolonsk?...) 50. Walden Macnair 51. Draco Malfoy 52. Lucius Malfoy 53. Madam Malkin 54. Flourish and Blotts manager 55. Madam Maxime 56. Minerva McGonagall 57. Ernie MacMillan 58. Alastor Moody 59. Moaning Myrtle 60. (Mr.?) Nott 61. Mr. Ollivander 62. Pansy Parkinson 63. Pavarti Patil 64. Padma Patil 65. Peter Pettigrew 66. Madam Pomfrey 67. James Potter 68. Lily Potter 69. Harry Potter 70. Ernie Prang 71. Professor Quirrell 72. Tom Riddle 73. Madam Rosmerta 74. Stan Shunpike 75. Rita Skeeter 76. Severus Snape 77. Professor Sprout 78. Dean Thomas 79. Tom of the Leaky Cauldron 80. Professor Sibyll Trelawney 81. Violet 82. Arthur Weasley 83. Molly Weasley 84. Bill Weasley 85. Charlie Weasley 86. Percy Weasley 87. Fred Weasley 88. George Weasley 89. Ron Weasley 90. Ginny Weasley 91. Oliver Wood 92. The witch who, when Crouch accused HRH of summoning the Dark Mark, reminded him that they were only children 93. Vernon Dursley 94. Petunia Dursley 95. Dudley Dursley 96. Piers Polkiss 97. Aunt Marge 98. The Riddles' maid 99. Woman at the bar in Little Hangleton 100. The Riddles' cook 101. Man at the bar in Little Hangleton 102. Landlord of the bar 103. Excited womanin the corner who was speaking with Dot 104. Dot 105. Frank Bryce 106. Dobby the House Elf 107. Winky the House Elf 108. Aragog 109. Firenze 110. Bane 111. The old man with Macnair who comes to dispose of Buckbeak 112. Mrs. Honeyduke 113. Nearly Headless Nick 114. Peeves 115. The Sorting Hat 116. The goblin who sings Harry's val-o-gram 117. Armando Dippet 118. The Spider who led Ron and Harry to Aragog 119. The ghost who walked through Nick's Deathday party food 120. Sir Patrick de Mimsy-Porpington 121. The Basilisk 122. The witch who speaks to Harry in Knockturn Alley 123. The photographer taking pictures of Lockhart for the Daily Prophet I know it says there's 125 voices, but this is all I can find. There are some others I couldn't remember if we'd heard or not, but I can't find my copies of SS or CS: Katie Bell, Bletchley, Penelope Clearwater, Madam Pince, Alicia Spinnet, and Ronan. So I'm missing 2. Aesha [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tammy at mauswerks.net Tue Jun 10 03:21:23 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 23:21:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] "a hundred years" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3EE51673.21928.1AB2FD4@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 59759 On 9 Jun 2003 at 3:33, ashwinder99 wrote: > I'm re-reading PoA again and I noticed something on page 6 (hardcover > US version) "... Lily and James Potter had not died in a car crash. > They had been murdered, murdered by the most feared Dark wizard for a > hundred years, Lord Voldemort." Wait, a hundred years? Isn't he in his > 60s now? I don't remember how I know this, but I'm pretty sure he is. > I'm sorry if this has been talked about a lot a while back, or if I'm > just missing something. Just hoping someone can clear this up for me. > Thanks! Your math is correct -- Voldemort would be in his late 60's to early 70's throughout Harry's time at Hogwarts. I think what may be confusing you is reflected in the syntax of your query. "The most feared Dark wizard for a hundred years." That doesn't mean that Voldemort has been feared for a hundred years, no, no. What that statement means is that, in the last hundred years, there hasn't been anyone as terrible as Voldemort. He's the worst. He ranks number one on the 'Hundred Years Of Scary Dudes' list. Does that help? :) *** Tammy tammy at mauswerks.net From mclartym at telus.net Tue Jun 10 01:37:06 2003 From: mclartym at telus.net (Marion McLarty) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 18:37:06 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] best lines in the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c32ef0$cd5c1aa0$8d1a059a@Sven> No: HPFGUIDX 59760 Hi Rod, My favourite line is on page 15 of the Canadian version. Professor McGonagall tells Dumbledore, "He'll be famous - a legend - I wouldn't be surprise if today was known as Harry Potter day in the future - there will be books written about Harry - every child in our world will know his name." This quote struck me when I first read it because I imagined JK Rowling sitting in a coffee shop writing that line not knowing how true it would turn out to be. Marion Hi I'm writing a piece for The Courier-Mail (daily newspaper in Brisbane, Australia) looking at the best sentences in the Harry Potter series. I have my own favourites (there's a line, and i'm quoting from memory because i don't have my book in front of me, in the first book in which Hagrid mentions he borrows the motorbike from Sirius Black - a reference you read over at first and only realise the significance in latter books) but am after nominations from fellow HP fans. cheers ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From blackstripe61 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 02:09:23 2003 From: blackstripe61 at yahoo.com (blackstripe61) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 02:09:23 -0000 Subject: St. Mungo's and the Longbottoms Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59761 Hello I am new to the group, so please pardon any major mistakes, because the admin files aren't working for me. What if there is more to Neville Longbottom then meets the eye. I think he is going to play a major role in future HP books, I think he may have some great secret about him, maybe a mystery power. We all know that Neville is very forgetful person. I think there might be a powerful Memory Charm placed upon him, which explains how come he is so forgetful, since major Memory Charms can be harmful. He knows what happened to his parent, so what is the charm for? Maybe, to make him forget magical things he could do as a baby, or anything really magical about his childhood. We all know his parents are Aurors, so he probaly has some strong magical abilities and he does have sudden bouts of courage. I based this on the fact that Neville is the same age as Harry. So he would be the same age as Harry when Voldemort was live and kickng, therefore a baby. I believe there is chance Neville might have something to do with Quidditch. We are never told that Neville can't fly. We know his grandmother never let him near a broom. But she is probaly just overportective because of what happen to his parents and Harry Potter had never flown a broom either. So what about the school broom incident? We hear Fred and George complaining about the school brooms how they are old and umpredictable. So maybe the shock of getting on a broom for the first time, combined with a old broom doing random things could account for him flying crazily throughout the sky. Adam Don't hesitate to email. From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Tue Jun 10 03:26:25 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 23:26:25 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Names in goblet Message-ID: <9f.39847b30.2c16a9e1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59762 Don't let the Muggles get you down! It should be a t-shirt! Oooohhh...I might make one now....that's a good idea! ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ --Don't let the Muggles get you down could be a song... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Tue Jun 10 03:27:20 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 23:27:20 EDT Subject: Oops! Message-ID: <73.31c273cf.2c16aa18@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59763 My "names in Goblet" should be under best lines. I'm very sorry. For names in Goblet: it's an inanimate object. Magic can do anything! ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 03:38:21 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 03:38:21 -0000 Subject: best lines in the book? In-Reply-To: <000001c32ef0$cd5c1aa0$8d1a059a@Sven> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59764 As I re-read CoS today, this ever famous quote stood out: US edition, Paperback, P.120 Lockhart to Harry: "...Fame's a fickle friend,Harry..." That was and is definitely a foreshadowing for GoF and the remaining books. Greicy From elfundeb at comcast.net Tue Jun 10 03:49:23 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 23:49:23 -0400 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction References: <061101c32ede$e9a6dc70$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <005601c32f03$48514980$9ddc5644@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 59765 Just one? I vote for Evil! Fudge. Not Death Eater Fudge. Just plain old "whatever I have to do to keep and hold power even though I have no idea how to govern" evilness. This means that, in OOP, the following backstory information will be revealed: 1. Fudge made Sirius laugh. Then he wiped the Muggles' memories *before* they could be questioned by anyone else. (He knew an opportunity when he saw one; the truth is irrelevant when you've cornered the suspect everyone is looking for.) 2. Fudge is responsible for Neville's memory charm. And his parents' insanity -- because he had to break their memory charms to be sure there was testimony to convict Barty Jr. -- anything to get rid of a rival for high office. And Fudge's attempt to oust Dumbledore will be his undoing, because he doesn't really control Hogwarts; the Sorting Hat does. Debbie noting for Cindy's benefit that Evil!Fudge is one prediction; everything else is just detail and elaboration [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ivanova at idcnet.com Tue Jun 10 04:12:59 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 23:12:59 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: An introduction, Sirius Black, the four houses References: Message-ID: <006001c32f06$94d32280$a3cdaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 59766 > Sen: (snip) > Ok. I don't remember exactly *who* came up > with the idea to switch Sk's at the last minute. I also don't > remember if it was mentioned about anyone putting in their 2 cents > about it being a bad idea. (If someone could refresh my memory that'd > be great). I know someone had to have stepped in and said Pettigrew > wouldn't have been a good choice! I don't believe Lupin & the rest > stood by and let the (lol sorry about this) nimrod of the group > handle such a heavy load? I know personally, in our group of close > friends that are family there is one person in particular (I'm sure > theres one in every group of friends) that you wouldn't want them to > take on a big job because either you don't trust them to do it right, > theyre not competent enough, or a slew of other reasons. I get the > impression Pettigrew would fall into this category. You'd almost get > a guarenteed botched job, which is obviously what happened. Sirius came up with the idea to switch Secret Keepers. When he thought about it, he came to believe that it would be obvious that he himself was the Secret Keeper, so he thought of Peter. As you say, he is not the type that would be first thought of when it came to being entrusted with something important. Therefore, Sirius, who did trust Peter, thought he would be the perfect Secret Keeper. He was a trusted friend, believed to be loyal to James, and someone that no one would think of. Sirius went to the Potters', told them about his idea, and they agreed to switch to Peter. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 04:14:11 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:14:11 -0000 Subject: More much ado about money and those damn robes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59767 "darrin_burnett" wrote: "Why didn't Molly pull Ron aside?" "For the first time in years, she's got a full house again, with Bill and Charlie back, and plus she's got two other house guests in Harry and Hermione.That's a lot of laundry, cleaning and cooking." Hello all, fred Waldrop here: Not really, just a flick of the wand, and presto, it's done. But I guess all that wand waving must be oh so tiring though. "Plus, she's got three other of her own children, and Harry and Hermione to shop for, organize clothes, and get packed". The 3 other children are old enough to organize and pack their own cloths, they do in PoA, so why can't they do it a year later? And Harry surely must know how to put his stuff away, he has been doing it most his life. Hermione, being as smart as she is, probably knows how to fold a robe and pack it too. And Molly was all alone when she went shopping, so what was the rush? "So, I think maybe her thinking that Ron didn't need nursemaiding through the robes crisis can be forgiven, don't you?" Forgiven for looseing her temper, yes. Being a nursemaid instead of a mother, can't see where you get that, he just wanted to know why his robe looked like a dress instead of like Harry's. "Why didn't she fix the lace?" "There has been speculation as to Molly and Arthur's ages, but perhaps she didn't grasp how out-of-date they were. We don't know what Arthur's robes look like." Sure she knew how out of date they were, she just could not buy better. Been there, understand. "Or perhaps she meant to, but didn't get around to it, what with other things going on." What do you consider more important than your children? As stated earlier, she was home alone while everyone was at the QWC. So what kept her from fixing the robe while she was at home all by herself? "And then Ron threw the attitude at her, and she said, essentially, "You know, I'm sick and tired of how ungrateful this little brat is, whining about how everything he owns is rubbish, so let him fix his own damn robes." Exactly how many times can you show me in CANON where Ron is "whining about how everything he owns is rubbish"? I only know of ONCE!!!! But if you can enlighten me, I would appreciate it, Thanks. "Perfect? Not at all, but completely understandable" Not really, but I can over look it. After all, she is not perfect, no one is. "We see Ginny stoically repairing a book, where Ron blew his new book money on dungbombs" What new book money? You mean in the THIRD YEAR when he went to Hogmeads? Or was he suppost to be buying his own stuff at 11? I think you have Ron and the twins confussed. "Far as I can tell, although the other kids certainly are faced with the poverty, and deal with it in different ways -- Percy by working that much harder" We also see Percy staying at home after he leaves school, being a burden on his mother and father, even though he has a job himself. We do not see Bill or Charlie doing this. "Fred and George by becoming class clowns and trying to earn their own money" Yes, and they are a little older than Ron, unless you are saying they are triplets instead of twins. Why not let Ron get to 15 before making him get a full time job. "and Ginny by trying to keep a stiff upper lip in the face of insecurity" Yes, all the while COMPLAINING, COMPLAINING, COMPLAINING to Tom Riddle. Whom does Ron have to complain too? His mom surely doesn't want to hear it, does she? "-- Ron is the one who deals with it like a whining goof" As I said earlier, can you show me in canon where all this whining is? "And no, I don't find it endearing" Suit yourself, I like Ron. "Fred and George and their humor in the face of it is endearing" True "Ron is just whiny. Cynicism without the benefit of experience is just a bad attitude" Is that all you got out of the books about Ron, him being whiny, whiny, whiny? I found he was loyal, trustworthy, willing to give anything, including his own life, for his friends. "I think, and have always thought, that Our Boy Ron is going to face a serious fork in his road" That's life, we all have to, what's your point? "Some people have targeted Percy as the weak link in the chain, but when the chips are down, I think Percy will land on the right side" If Percy ever leaves home, that is. "I see Ron facing a serious temptation in his life and it could bode badly if he chooses wrong" Sure could. But that could be said about anyone, including Harry. "Well, since Hermione is destined to become the Headmistress of Hogwarts, maybe Ron, who is destined to have a job with the Quidditch Federation, will just have to learn to have a wife that makes more than him" Hemione headmistress? I would think Prof. McGonagall would be next in line. But, if you think a student in her 5th year is more suited, I guess that's up to you. Me personally, I would go with someone who has a little more experiance. And Ron hasn't even played one Quidditch match for Hogwarts, and you already have him down to nothing more in life. He is only 14 the last we saw of him, and you already say he will never be more than a quidditch player? I already figured you hated the boy, but let him at least grow to the ripe old age of 16 before you write him off, alright? Fred Waldrop From Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 10 04:43:13 2003 From: Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com (Rosebeth C.) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 21:43:13 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] best lines in the book? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59768 >From: "chesterr" > >Hi >I'm writing a piece for The Courier-Mail (daily newspaper in >Brisbane, Australia) looking at the best sentences in the Harry >Potter series. I have my own favourites (there's a line, and i'm >quoting from memory because i don't have my book in front of me, in >the first book in which Hagrid mentions he borrows the motorbike from >Sirius Black - a reference you read over at first and only realise >the significance in latter books) but am after nominations from >fellow HP fans. >cheers >Rod Chester >The Courier-Mail >chesterr at qnp.newsltd.com.au >chesterr at yahoo.com > > There are so many but, I'll give you two of my faves. First, in SS US Ed Paperback page 301. Harry is trying to talk Madam Pomfrey into letting Ron and Hermione in to see him. "I am resting, look, lying down and everything. Oh, go on, Madam Pomfrey . . ." "Oh, very well," she said. "But five minutes *only*" I don't know what it is about that, but it always make me smile. Maybe because it's so easy to see Harry lying in the bed giving Pomfrey a cute grin. The other is from PA US Ed Paperback page 340. It's not really line, but rather a paragraph. Actually it's a whole passage, but I'll just give you the begining. "He [Harry] had forgotten about magic -- he had forgotten that he was short and skinny and thirteen, whereas Black was a tall, full-grown man -- all Harry knew was that he wanted to hurt Black as badly as he could and that he didn't care how much he got hurt in return." I know they are kinda odd choices, but I'm kinda of an odd person. :) Rosebeth _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 05:27:35 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 05:27:35 -0000 Subject: Harry's Watch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59769 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "shihtouji" wrote: > > ...edited... > > Why is such a deal made about Harry's stopped watch in GF? More > important, why is no one able to repair it magically, as Hermione > did with Harry's glasses in CS? ...edited... > > Anyhow, if anyone has any speculation about the significance of > Harry's watch, and its irreparability, I'd be grateful. > > Red Inkstone bboy_mn: Why wasn't Harry's watch fixed? For the same reason that Ron's wand, and Ron's robes weren't fixed; he never asked. You do not get what you do not ask for. And by the way, it was Mr. Weasley who fixed Harry's glasses in the book, Hermione fixed it in the movie, and Harry did not ask Mr. Weasley to fix the glasses. Mr. Weasley just took them, fixed them, and gave them back. We had a long discussion (or two or three) about Harry's watch a few months back. First, for Harry to have it, since he has no muggle money, it had to be a cheap watch. I guess it could have been one of Dudley's old watches, but it's actually unclear where the watch came from. Most people leaned toward it being a very cheap mechanical watch, or at best, a cheap quartz electro-mechanical watch. So why did it stop, well it was underwater for an hour; under very deep water. Most cheap watches aren't waterproof beyond 25 feet. Why the big deal about the watch? That's harder too answer. It is mentioned several times in the book (GoF), perhaps it's a minor insignificant detail, perhaps the fact that Harry doesn't have a watch will come into play in the next book. Do I believe the watch itself is a big deal; no I don't think so, but I really can't base that on anything solid. Sorry I couldn't offer more help in this area. Just a thought. bboy_mn From chuck_richie_99 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 03:47:38 2003 From: chuck_richie_99 at yahoo.com (Chuck) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 03:47:38 -0000 Subject: PoA: Chapter 19 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59770 Curiosities: When Snape gets knocked out, he bleeds. Not likely if he's a vampire. When asking why Peter/Scabbers didn't kill Harry after three yearas in the same dorm, Black states Voldy has, "been in hiding for fifteen years." Fifteen? What happened to 12? Why hiding for the extra 3 years? Typo? Anyone? Bueller? Chuck From jjjwoolfolk at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 10 04:51:36 2003 From: jjjwoolfolk at sbcglobal.net (Woolfolk) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 23:51:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: best lines in the book? References: Message-ID: <3EE563D8.7030304@sbcglobal.net> No: HPFGUIDX 59771 POA: "With a roar, Black started toward Snape, but Snape pointed his wand right between Black's eyes. "Give me a reason," He whispered. "Give me a reason to do it, and I swear I will." GOF: "An excellent point," said Professor Dumbledore. "My own brother Aberforth, was prosecuted for practicing inappropriate charms on a goat." Julie W in AR From awillia2 at gladstone.uoregon.edu Tue Jun 10 04:53:24 2003 From: awillia2 at gladstone.uoregon.edu (Aesha Williams) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 21:53:24 -0700 Subject: An addendum to my previous post: who we'll likely *not* hear again Message-ID: <002201c32f0c$3a402060$15d0df80@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 59772 Here's a list of people who I think we're not going to hear from again, taken from the previous list I posted. 1. Archie (though he'd be great for comic relief, escpecially during these frightening times in the Wizarding world!) 2. Basil 3. Barty Crouch, Sr. 4. Barty Crouch, Jr. 5. Cedric Diggory 6. Marcus Flint 7. Professor Grubbly-Plank 8. Bertha Jorkins 9. Igor Karkaroff 10. Kevin 11. Kevin's mom 12. Gilderoy Lockheart 13. Mr. Oblansk (Bulgarian MOM) 14. Madam Malkin 15. Ernie Prang 16. Professor Quirrell 17. Tom Riddle (I don't count him as the same as Lord Voldemort, who, incidentally, I left of my previous list) 18. Stan Shunpike (I think two books was about it for him) 19. Vi 20. The witch who, when Crouch accused HRH of summoning the Dark Mark, reminded him that they are only children 21. Piers Polkiss 22. Aunt Marge 23. The Riddles' maid 24. The woman at the bar in Little Hangleton 25. The Riddles' cook 26. Man at the bar in Little Hangleton 27. Landlord of the bar in Little Hangleton 28. Excited woman in the corner who was speaking with Dot 29. Dot 30. Frank Bryce 31. Aragog 32. The old man with Macnair who comes to dispose of Buckbeak 33. The goblin who sings Harry's val-0-gram 34. Armando Dippet 35. The spider who led Ron and Harry to Aragog 36. The ghost who walked through Nick's Deathday party food 37. Sir Patrick de Mimsy-Porpington 38. The Basilisk 39. The witch who speaks to Harry in Knockturn Alley 40. The photographer taking pictures of Lockhart for the Daily Prophet There's 40 characters who I think we won't hear of at least for book 5, but most of them I don't think we'll hear from for the rest of the series. Mainly because a lot of these people were minor (the photographer at the DP), not needed any longer (Little Hangleton townsfolk), are dead and won't become ghosts, or will be glossed over in favor of more important characters we've had more exposure to (for example, we won't hear from the witch from Knocturn Alley again because if they want someone evil, there's loads of Death Eaters we already know and would like to know more about). Some of the people I didn't include in this list (like the Honeyduke's) I left off because this list is for people I think we won't hear a peep out of, and perhaps when taking a little jaunt to Hogsmeade, Honeydukes has rearranged their merchandise and HRH can't seem to find the Pepper Imps or fizzing whizbees. Also, some of the characters from this list I think we may hear *about* (for example, what happens to Karkaroff), but he won't have a speaking part in the book. Aesha, who enjoys this groups use of post-signature commas and the crazy things that sometimes follow them ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Past Honored Queen #77, Eugene, Oregon Grand Bethel Honored Queen 1999~2000 International Order of Job's Daughters ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gypseelynn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 03:35:29 2003 From: gypseelynn at yahoo.com (Rebecca Sylvester) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 20:35:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: best lines in the book? In-Reply-To: <1e0.ab3f98b.2c169207@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030610033529.35252.qmail@web41511.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59773 Cassie wrote: >> There's another one (Involving Divination, oddly)...but I can't seem to remember where the quote is. Can anyone help? it's the one where Ron has something like (imitating Trelawney) "When two saturns (or whatever planet) appear that means somemewhere a midget in glasses is being born." ----Help? Anyone? >>>>> Hey Cassie, after reading your question <> I went hunting. Partly because I was curious, and also because I to remember the quote and it is one of my favorites. Well I found it. It's from GoF in chapter 13: Mad-Eye Moody (pg 201 hardback)...it states "I've got two Neptuens here," said Harry after a while, frowning down at his piece of parchment, "that can't be right, can it?" "Aaaah," said Ron, imitating Professor Trelawney's mystical whisper, "when two Neptunes appear in the sky, it is a sure sign that a midged in glasses is being born, Harry..." Well, hope that helps!!!! Beckah From gypseelynn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 04:05:55 2003 From: gypseelynn at yahoo.com (Rebecca Sylvester) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 21:05:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Draco In-Reply-To: <20030610003647.34988.qmail@web13106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030610040555.64939.qmail@web41501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59774 Ok, I'm not sure if this question - or thought- has been discussed, although I know quite a lot has been written on the subject of Draco. Am I the only person that thinks that Draco will turn out to be a good guy in the end? I have a theory that Lucius will die and it will be because of his association with the dark arts that he is killed. I think this event will traumatize Draco and make him rethink exactly how great dark arts are. Either that or maybe someone like HRH or any other good character will save Dracos life causing him to take a different look at his life and the direction it is taking. I would love to hear any and all opinions on my train of thought. And if you think it's rediculously stupid please don't send too many howlers LOL!!!! Beckah From gypseelynn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 04:28:18 2003 From: gypseelynn at yahoo.com (Rebecca Sylvester) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 21:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The list of vocal characters In-Reply-To: <001001c32ee0$16e0f760$72d2df80@hppav> Message-ID: <20030610042818.19992.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59775 Aesha wrote: >>> I know it says there's 125 voices, but this is all I can find. There are some others I couldn't remember if we'd heard or not, but I can't find my copies of SS or CS: Katie Bell, Bletchley, Penelope Clearwater, Madam Pince, Alicia Spinnet, and Ronan. So I'm missing 2. >>>>> I'm not sure about two but I can say for sure that Penelope Clearwater does speak. It is in CoS after Ron and Harry turn into Crabbe and Goyle. As they are blundering around looking for Slytherins common room they tell "a girl" that they have forgotten where "their common room is". To which she replys, "Our common room? I'm in Ravenclaw." Later in the book Harry sees Percy and Penelope walking together and he recognizes her as the girl the and Ron asked for directions to Slytherin's common room from. Hope that helps (and that it didn't confuse anyone!!!) Beckah From coolksat at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 07:48:40 2003 From: coolksat at yahoo.com (Cora) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 00:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco In-Reply-To: <20030610040555.64939.qmail@web41501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030610074840.78317.qmail@web20503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59776 Beckah wrote: <> I think that Draco may change...but only in rebellion towards his father. I think that Lucius can be very strict with regards to Draco, and it may be this severe discipline that makes Draco turn away from his father. Cora From catherinemck at hotmail.com Tue Jun 10 08:48:40 2003 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:48:40 -0000 Subject: (FILK) Don't Let's Be Beastly to the D.E.s Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59777 A filk to the tune of _Don't Let's Be Beastly to the Germans_ by Noel Coward (still hilarious after 60 years) I can see myself getting hooked on this. Dedicated to Gail Bohacek and Caius Marcius - glad you liked my first attempt. THE SCENE: Voldemort has been defeated and time is moving on. Meanwhile, the elder Mr Crouch has been shunted sideways into the Department of International Magic Co-operation after finding that his hard-line attitudes are falling out of favour at the Ministry, where Cornelius Fudge and other interest groups advocate a somewhat different approach. FUDGE: Don't Let's Be Beastly to the D.E.s Now that death's at last caught up with Voldemort. Now we know we've got the ringleaders holed up in Azkaban, And letting out the Lestranges, well, mistakes are made by man! As for all the rest The Wizarding world must do its best On a quest for harmony to embark They murdered and tortured our friends, we know, With Avada Kedavra and Crucio But don't let's be beastly to the Dark. We must be fair And with an open air Promise that we'll give ev'ryone a trial. All except of course the ones we know are guilty There we'll lock the door and close the file Excepting Black We'll welcome the whole pack And pat them on the back And really show now they're not foe We're ever so delighted and excited to embrace them Those noble families, how on earth would we replace them? LUCIUS MALFOY: Don't let's be beastly to the D.E.s We were only doing it for a lark. That is, we've assured you we were under Imperius So it's really Voldemort you've a quarrel with, not us. Give us power again We'll wait 'til it's our hour again We can use cosmetics on the Mark! Let us back in the Ministry It's just the way to prove you're free But don't let's be beastly to the Dark. SNAPE and KARKAROFF: We said we'd turn But when the Dark Mark burns That's when we'll choose if we will stay. If You-Know-Who arise again we know we're done for Then will we help Harry to save the day? And so we grit Our teeth and champ the bit Because we could just spit At fools who think that rules and children's schools And gestures grand and heads-in-the-sand might ever serve us We'd rather trust in cunning to preserve us. FANS: Don't let's be beastly to the D.E.s (We make this plea without a trace of sarc- Asm.) Each one of them's Dead Sexy, despite a moral lapse Even their enemies would admit they're rather intriguing chaps. Rookwood, Wilkes and Rosier, Snape despite his greasy hair, Who could be blind to the romantic spark? Oh, give us Malfoy and Lestrange Bring us Avery back again But don't let's be beastly to the Dark! Catherine McK (wondering if the Dark Mark could be removed by plastic surgery, or if, being magical, it would just reappear) From koticzka at wp.pl Tue Jun 10 08:33:36 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:33:36 +0200 Subject: Basic Physics / Confusion-spies/lies plus Narcissa Message-ID: <008901c32f2d$55cf0410$c4114cd5@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 59778 BASIC PHYSICS: Anita Hillin wrote: >>Red and Green do, in fact, make yellow or gold in light, so the combination of the two light sparks could create a gold colour. By the way, I learned that in Theatre Stagecraft. ;-) << ***Koticzka's comment: So if Harry's wand gave off red and golden sparks, it might be interpreted as lots of Gryffindor's red and a bit of Slytherin's green? *** Koticzka's self-criticism: Even if JKR knows that - and I think she would after her studies - it is much too far fetched to conclude. SPIES TRUE LIES: Anne(Anja) wrote: >>Now there's still the problem with Lucius Malfoy who never gave the impression of distrusting Snape's loyalty to the Dark Side (he wouldn't have sent his son to Hogwarts if he had known that his son would be taught by a traitor). Maybe Snape and Malfoy are indeed close friends and Snape found some excuse for all the talk about him being a spy. Lucius himself talked himself out of this whole Deatheater thing as did many others, so it wouldn't be impossible for him to believe that Snape just pretended to be have been a spy to escape from the Ministry. << ***Koticzka's comment: Well, I will tell you that I can imagine the situation where Tom Riddle's Slithery Friend (Lucius Malfoy) knows of Snape's mole-job and stays his friend. There may be a special agreement (since they knew each other to be on opposite sides) not to discuss political issues. Personally, I know some people whom I call my opponents and enemies, and with whom I am very careful indeed about discussing business subjects , yet we spend wonderful leisure time together in non-formal situations. The advice I give to my closest friends is to be careful, and that they can really appreciate the given knowledge and experience. So might I say to my son that I know the man and appreciate his knowledge (potions, spells perhaps) and attitude toward kids (the second seems very doubtful when one considers SS towards Gryffs - although he may be a great Head of House!) Moreover, I would like my son to graduate (at Lucius's place!). Though it was Narcissa who insisted on Hogwarts. The only thing Lucius can do is to advise Draco how to behave towards the man. Especially if Lucius is dependent of his wife due to ... her fortune, perhaps? Or maybe her political connections which helped him to stay untouchable in times of trials and accusations? Other issues, not necessarily love? On the other hand, Lucius and Snape do not need to be friends. Snape's startled reaction to Malfoy's presence in graveyard (per Harry's report in GoF) may indicate he is presently fooled by Lucius-the-friend. melclaros wrote: >>If Snape was publicly "cleared by this council" he has the WW on his side saying, "what a nice boy he is coming 'round like that" ~while at the same time~ he has the DE old-boys yukking it up saying, "Well played, Severus! Pulled the wool right over their eyes! How *did* you manage Dumbledore?"<< ***Koticzka's comment: Would you rather hear "well, pity, but we have no statute to justify summoning the dementors to him" and on the other side of the board: "Well, we don't have proof , nor basis, nor strength now to get rid of this supremely suspected son of... Slytherin House" Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From koticzka at wp.pl Tue Jun 10 08:33:09 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:33:09 +0200 Subject: Re Sorting Hat / Release date / Hope for Book 5 Message-ID: <008801c32f2d$54d16a30$c4114cd5@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 59779 SORTING HAT: Catlady quoted me (Koticzka): << Taking into consideration that the Sorting Hat has much more sense than anyone else and is fully or at least partly conscious of its choices and their consequences, my theory is that the Hat will save Hogwarts by executing a subtle plan and ignoring students basic personality for a greater good. However, I am open to hearing other opinions, and I will consider them with curiosity. >> Catlady wrote: >>Some time ago, someone proposed a detailed theory in which the Sorting Hat *is* executing a subtle plan ... it is causing all the bad things in the wizarding world (by controlling their culture) in order to maintain its own power. And the only happy ending would be to destroy the Sorting Hat, and the House system...<< ***Koticzka's new comment: Thanks for the info. Well, that makes sense, though there are many wizard schools and it does not contradict canon to believe there may be an older one with deeper traditions. RELEASE DATE Heidi Tandy and Susan Snow, as Brief Chonicles are discussing the date of release of OoP. ***Koticzka's bad memory... With all due respect - I know what marketing departments are able to say to increase interest, but I do remember someone mentioning that the release date HAS a meaning and that something important in the book is to take place on that night. HOPE FOR BOOK 5 Chuck wrote: >>Things I hope to see and not see in book 5 Enough with the Animagi.So there's this registration thing we're told...<< ***Koticzka: Sorry to disappoint you but I remember JKR's words.... someone else will achieve that. Chuck: >>... No time travel<< ****Koticzka's comment: I am also tired of some subjects and less than fresh ideas. So, I am considering quitting the group for a while - just in case if IT (whatever we're speculating about) really happens. That way I will check whether I am really addicted to these discussions. Oryomai: >>I also wanna see Harry and Ron quit Divinitation! Down with Trelawney! << ***Koticzka's comment: No! She is such an absurd character and so human! I like her and she is necessary. But, looking at H&R's first homework in divination in GoF - they could manage without her... Mark: >>What about the other plot devices, such as "memory charms"<< ***Koticzka's comment: Why is it bothering you that you can do harmlessly with a spell something that can be done violently and harmfully by Muggles? Or did I see too many spy-movies... Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From koticzka at wp.pl Tue Jun 10 08:33:57 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:33:57 +0200 Subject: Lockhart / Dementors Message-ID: <008d01c32f2d$58e51db0$c4114cd5@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 59780 Catlady wrote (about Lockhart): >>It almost seems as if he believes his own hype, until they find him packing to leave. Does he *want* those closer to him than a book shop autograph session to think him a harmless idiot?<< ***Koticzka admits: Yes, it is almost for sure that Lockhart is one of those types who believe their own lies. A man like that, one should not call harmless... Though the character is so extreme, examples of it can be found everywhere, unfortunately...especially in the Muggle World. Susan wrote: >> Did anyone else get the impression that the dementors were somehow targeting Harry? << Kelly Grosskreutz wrote: >>Remember, DD says the dementors will quickly rejoin Voldemort at the end of GoF. IIRC, they were said to be working with Voldemort during the last war as well<< ****Koticzka's comment: I fully agree with JKR - dementors are her best invention (or discovery - I had one instead of a pet for some time, though I hope got rid of it at last!). Voldemort is full of hope about them: "The dementors will join us ... they are our natural allies ... we will recall the banished giants ... I shall have all my devoted servants returned to me, and an army of creatures whom all fear. ..." (GoF, ch. 33) So, if the dementors were attacking Harry on purpose, it would suggest that there is one of Voldemort's supporters in the Ministry - a strong, powerful, influential one. Otherwise: 1) Voldemort would not use Future Tense when talking about them. 2) Why would they just attack Harry among so many happy people? 3) Who else could release the Ministry's dementors if not a Ministry clerk? 4) Who would have enough power - magical, official, or both - to release them, but avoid their attack? Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From koticzka at wp.pl Tue Jun 10 08:33:50 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:33:50 +0200 Subject: Heirs and Decendants / How Riddle Knew / Voldemort and Lilly ... and Petunia Message-ID: <008c01c32f2d$57287990$c4114cd5@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 59781 TOM MARVOLO RIDDLE Innermurk: >>I innermurk want to add: Here's an idea, what if the Sorting Hat told him? The sorting hat had a nice little conversation with Harry, so it's not an unheard of thing to happen.<< ***Koticzka's comment: Actually he might be a heir or descendent, the chosen one or the one who does the choosing. If he were a Muggle, we would ask - where are the records? Where is your file, has it already been updated in our databases? Or put someone through a long test instead of putting an old hat on his head (ew, think about the hygiene, or lack thereof!). We cannot say that Wizards have a much better ways of dealing with information, according to JKR herself. All I know is that I do not need to talk to my mother to find out something about my family even if it was forgotten for ages. My problem is, I am too lazy to do that! That's not Riddle's problem. Kim said: >>I have read much speculation about why Voldemort told Lily to stand aside rather than just kill her out right. What about this idea! He would have spared her because of his latent feelings for his own mother! Maybe he doesn't even realize it, probably would deny it if asked, but if he spent all his life pining for the mother he loves but lost, perhaps seeing Lily so fiercely protecting Harry gave him an unconscious momentary lapse in his ruthlessness (is this a word?).<< ***Koticzka's comment: Especially if she had also been adopted, which would be a double explanation for Petunia's hatred.... (to be continued when I put my thoughts about Lily in order) HEIRS AND DESCENDANTS: tiger_queen429 wrote: >>Before I start, I have a question: why does all competition in Hogwarts seem to center around Slytherin and Gryffindor?<< ***Koticzka's comment: Sorry for the feminist rhetoric, as I am a woman with strong anti-feminist views, but it is men's nature to fight and construct rivalry. Two Founders fight while the two Lady Founders have a useless chit-chat... or quarrel. ;) innermurk again: >>GG, on the other had did not have such strong ties to bloodlines as seen by his willingness to teach Muggle-born witches and wizards. ****Koticzka's comment: No comments. Just some dirty thoughts. innermurk again: >>Sirius in the end of POA calls Harry 'the last Potter' (pg 371) which suggests that there is some importance to that family line if Voldemort wants him so badly. For all we know, Harry could be the last descendant of GG as well as his heir. Perhaps, the heirs and descendants of the two 'greatest' houses are destined to fight each other.<< Brief Chronicles: >>Harry Potter is our "Chosen One." Why did he live? Why does Voldemort want so desperately to kill him? << ***Koticzka's comment: I am the author of some crazy theories, but the simplest (and fully sufficient reason) would be that poor Potter Jr. survived, and by that simple fact offended Lord Voldemort the Great and Invincible. Of course we have canon (or we think we have) that Voldie attacked the Potters for a purpose. Anyway, I quit believing the theory Harry has Gryffindor's blood in veins. In CS Dumbledore does not mention anything about heirs or descendants of GG. Still, being SS's heir... Hmmm... Brief Chronicles again: >>So, I can see that it's possible the whole Potter line might be special. Either that, or it's special to Sirius Black for nostalgia purposes. :) << ***Koticzka's comment: Any bets about grandfathers? : ) Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Jun 10 08:52:47 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:52:47 -0000 Subject: The list of vocal characters In-Reply-To: <001001c32ee0$16e0f760$72d2df80@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59782 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Aesha Williams" wrote: > Here is a list of characters who I believe have spoken in the Harry Potter series. Thank goodness for the Lexicon, because I can't find my copy of SS, and just used the "Which Witch" list to look through the characters. Thank you Steve!! :) > > 1. Hannah Abbot > 2. Archie > 3. Avery > 4. Ludo Bagman > 5. Basil > 6. Professor Binns > 7. Sirius Black > 8. Mr. Borgin > 9. Lavendar Brown > 10. Sir Cadogan > 11. Cho Chang > 12. Mr. Crabbe > 13. Crabbe (if we count the time Ron spoke as Crabbe using Polyjuice potion) > 14. Colin Creevey > 15. Dennis Creevey > 16. Doris Crockford > 17. Barty Crouch, Sr. > 18. Barty Crouch, Jr. > 19. Fleur Delacour > 20. Dedalus Diggle > 21. Amos Diggory > 22. Cedric Digory > 23. Mrs. Diggory > 24. Albus Dumbledore > 25. The Fat Lady > 26. Argus Filch > 27. Justin Fitch-Fletchley > 28. Mrs. Finnegan > 29. Marcus Flint > 30. Professor Filius Flitwick > 31. Cornelius Fudge > 32. Gregory Goyle (if we count Harry speaking as Goyle while using Polyjuice Potion) > 33. Mr. Goyle > 34. Hermione Granger > 35. Professor Grubbly-Plank > 36. Rubeus Hagrid > 37. Madam Hooch > 38. Angelina Johnson > 39. Lee Jordan > 40. Bertha Jorkins > 41. Igor Karkaroff > 42. Kevin > 43. Kevin's mom > 44. Viktor Krum > 45. Mrs. Lestrange > 46. Gilderoy Lockheart > 47. Neville Longbottom > 48. Remus Lupin > 49. Bulgarian Minister of Magic (Oblansk? Obolonsk?...) > 50. Walden Macnair > 51. Draco Malfoy > 52. Lucius Malfoy > 53. Madam Malkin > 54. Flourish and Blotts manager > 55. Madam Maxime > 56. Minerva McGonagall > 57. Ernie MacMillan > 58. Alastor Moody > 59. Moaning Myrtle > 60. (Mr.?) Nott > 61. Mr. Ollivander > 62. Pansy Parkinson > 63. Pavarti Patil > 64. Padma Patil > 65. Peter Pettigrew > 66. Madam Pomfrey > 67. James Potter > 68. Lily Potter > 69. Harry Potter > 70. Ernie Prang > 71. Professor Quirrell > 72. Tom Riddle > 73. Madam Rosmerta > 74. Stan Shunpike > 75. Rita Skeeter > 76. Severus Snape > 77. Professor Sprout > 78. Dean Thomas > 79. Tom of the Leaky Cauldron > 80. Professor Sibyll Trelawney > 81. Violet > 82. Arthur Weasley > 83. Molly Weasley > 84. Bill Weasley > 85. Charlie Weasley > 86. Percy Weasley > 87. Fred Weasley > 88. George Weasley > 89. Ron Weasley > 90. Ginny Weasley > 91. Oliver Wood > 92. The witch who, when Crouch accused HRH of summoning the Dark Mark, reminded him that they were only children > 93. Vernon Dursley > 94. Petunia Dursley > 95. Dudley Dursley > 96. Piers Polkiss > 97. Aunt Marge > 98. The Riddles' maid > 99. Woman at the bar in Little Hangleton > 100. The Riddles' cook > 101. Man at the bar in Little Hangleton > 102. Landlord of the bar > 103. Excited womanin the corner who was speaking with Dot > 104. Dot > 105. Frank Bryce > 106. Dobby the House Elf > 107. Winky the House Elf > 108. Aragog > 109. Firenze > 110. Bane > 111. The old man with Macnair who comes to dispose of Buckbeak > 112. Mrs. Honeyduke > 113. Nearly Headless Nick > 114. Peeves > 115. The Sorting Hat > 116. The goblin who sings Harry's val-o-gram > 117. Armando Dippet > 118. The Spider who led Ron and Harry to Aragog > 119. The ghost who walked through Nick's Deathday party food > 120. Sir Patrick de Mimsy-Porpington > 121. The Basilisk > 122. The witch who speaks to Harry in Knockturn Alley > 123. The photographer taking pictures of Lockhart for the Daily Prophet > > I know it says there's 125 voices, but this is all I can find. There are some others I couldn't remember if we'd heard or not, but I can't find my copies of SS or CS: Katie Bell, Bletchley, Penelope Clearwater, Madam Pince, Alicia Spinnet, and Ronan. So I'm missing 2. > > Aesha > I am sure Ronan said something. At least while he met Hagrid and the others. Also, either Katie or Alicia shrieked something in GoF that Harry will be able to pay Cedric back for the last Quidditch match. In book 1, when Harry was first at the platform 9 3/4, Neville lost his toad and Gran Longbottom made a comment. "Oh Neville". Hickengruendler From koticzka at wp.pl Tue Jun 10 08:34:07 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:34:07 +0200 Subject: OOP: Dumbledore's successor / Mirror of Erised / A Harry Failure / Death of One of the Trio? Message-ID: <008e01c32f2d$59bc91f0$c4114cd5@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 59783 HARRY, HARRY, HARRY... drmm_fuuko wrote: >>If Harry fails I think it will cost the life of someone he cares about. And for Harry to learn and grow the most, it should be his own carelessness that causes it. I predict that the death most people think will happen in OOtP will be caused because Harry does something stupid -- and is caught because of it. Or at least in book 6.<< ***Koticzka's comment: Something tells me you might have just discovered the plot - Harry learns that he needs other people involved in the fight, because he himself is not enough (lacking particular skills, wisdom, knowledge, or experience) and this is why he gathers people and leads them to victory. Although... maturity does not equal being able to work well with others. I still see Harry as more of an individual worker. DEATHS IN OoP SnapesSlytherin at aol.com wrote: >>What if that's how one of the Trio dies? (snip) It could happen anytime between OoP and Book Seven...but I think if one of them dies it will belater than OoP.<< ***Koticzka's opinion: No canon for this, but I think that they are each necessary: Strategy - Ron, Cleverness / Knowledge - Hermione, Bravery plus Leadership - Harry. These three elements, connected by friendship, will be necessary to fight V. I would bet on it. Errr...Would consider a bet. Maybe. Perhaps. DUMLEDORE'S SUCCESSOR Sherrie, Marephraim, Melclaros and many others keep discussing Dumledore being sacked and the new headmaster/headmistress. ***Koticzka's comment: I fully agree, it will probably be McGonagall. What was it in the major spoiler about the ineptitude of school authorities? It does match her personality. She would be a perfect tool, I am afraid, in the hands of the MoM, which is becoming more and more infiltrated by Voldemort's followers. Proof: In PS/SS, she ignores the trio when they try to inform her that the stone is in danger. Referring to MarEphraim, Brief Chronicles and Kelly Grosskreutz presumption about the Master of Potions as a Headmaster: I do not believe Snape might be the one - he is not "politically correct", decisive and confident about his actions (unlike Minerva) and pretty independent! I also suppose that a new headmaster must be promoted by Fudge. Are you able to imagine Fudge promoting Severus? Even my imagination does not stretch that far... Moreover, I don't think Snape has time for this. Last but not least: Consider the consequences, assuming he is actively involved in the war. MIRROR OF ERISED Regarding the Mirror of Erised and how Dumledore put the stone in it, we must also consider as a corollary whether it is possible to locate a person in the Mirror. That would give us a subtle clue about Dumledore's presence, his advice, and role both as a mentor and The Voice of Reason. Remember that it has to represent some true features of the reflected persons - Harry SAW his mother's true picture about half a year after the incident with the Mirror - in a photo-album given to him by Hagrid. Any differences between the picture and the mirror would be mentioned, would they not? Especially since it is written more or less from Harry's point of view. Melanie L Ellis wrote: >>Which makes me wonder - why did DD decide it was time to move the stone from Gringott's and then guard it? Maybe I'm just forgetting something, but as I recall, there was zero indication that Voldemort was on the prowl<< ****Koticzka's comment: I don't remember anything that would indicate this, either. But even if Dumbledore is not omniscient (I hope he isn't, I am in the group considering this as naive as it is banal), he has his spies everywhere. As a wizard, he might also believe some predictions. Even Muggles have their misgivings. Koticzka looking for Dumbledore's sherbet lemons, short of chocolate :(and wondering whether her new view (outside the window) will be reflected in her freshly learnt sarcasm How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Jun 10 09:13:12 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 05:13:12 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] PoA: Chapter 19 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59784 In a message dated 6/10/2003 3:05:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, chuck_richie_99 at yahoo.com writes: > When asking why Peter/Scabbers didn't kill Harry after three yearas > in the same dorm, Black states Voldy has, "been in hiding for fifteen > years." Fifteen? What happened to 12? Why hiding for the extra 3 > years? Typo? Anyone? Personally, I think Sirius has slipped a cog... I think it's just a typo that got through. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From linlou43 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 10:18:14 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:18:14 -0000 Subject: The list of vocal characters In-Reply-To: <20030610042818.19992.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59785 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Sylvester wrote: > Aesha wrote: > >>> I know it says there's 125 voices, but this is all I can find. There are some others I couldn't remember if we'd heard or not, but I can't find my copies of SS or CS: Katie Bell, Bletchley, Penelope Clearwater, Madam Pince, Alicia Spinnet, and Ronan. So I'm missing Linda: Ronan does speak in SS/PS. "Mars is bright tonight." Alicia speaks to respond to Fred's invitation to the ball. We hear from both Alicia and Katie giggling over Cedric during Quidditch practice in PoA. I think(trying to remember...think,think,think...) Madam Pince speaks once Ginny has been taken into the chamber in PoA but not sure. (At work, no books) -Linda, just my two knuts From amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 10 11:13:14 2003 From: amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk (amy_marblefeet) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:13:14 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59786 Cindy writes: >My goodness! When you guys make a prediction, you really *make a >prediction,* don't you? Wow! >First there was this from Amy about dear Lupin: >>He will kill himself. But why I hear you cry! What could Lupin >>possible do that would make him commit harri-karri. Well ladies and >>gentlemen of the jury, Lupin is going to eat Denis Creevey. > >Whoa! >I have *never* heard *that* prediction before. Dang! I'm . . . I'm >speechless. And feeling a little bit sick, honestly. *blushes*, well, thank you Cindy, to make the captain of the big bang speechless is extremely gratifying. I did post this little theory a couple of weeks back in message 57206 where I bumped off several other character as well in horrifying yet wonderfully creative ways. >Tell us, Amy. Is Lupin going to rip little Denis Creevey limb from >limb right there in the main dining room, or will this bit of >bloodletting take place deep within the darkest regions of the >Forbidden Forest? ;-) Oh, probably the Shrieking Shack. Colin will have seen his hero Harry go off there on a number of occasions and his little brother will decide one moonlit night to go off and meet the great and the good Harry Potter but unfortunately due to the fact that Lupin will just turn up one day Snape will not have had time to brew the immensely complicated potion and Lupin will have to go and hide in the Shack. The next day Lupin can return to Hogwarts covered in the blood of the youngest Creevey, perhaps leaving the head as identification in the Shrieking shack, showing what he did and also the fact that werewolves find the brain to be a bit too chewy. Lupin then locks himself in the bathroom. Runs himself a bath of warm water. And slits his wrists. Sirius finds him. Does this entitle me to a feather boa? Amy From vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be Tue Jun 10 11:35:28 2003 From: vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be (Vicky Gwosdz) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:35:28 -0000 Subject: Trip to Egypt? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59787 Hi, Coming back to the expensive or not so expensive trip to Egypt to visit Bill by the Weasleys in the summer before year 3. While rereading CoS (as anyone here in anticipation for book 5) I noticed that the Weasleys also visited Bill during the Chistmas break and even intended to bring at least some of the kids. It says in the book (no exact quote) that "Fred and George decided to stay at Hogwarts for the Christmas break instead of joining their parents in visiting Bill in Egypt". Now, if the trip was that expensive that they could only do it because of the money they won, how did they manage to visit him over Christmas and originally plan to bring the twins as well? Any thoughts? My 2 cts, Vicky From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 10 12:15:45 2003 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ivan=20Vablatsky?=) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 13:15:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: best lines in the book? Message-ID: <20030610121545.23689.qmail@web21506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59788 In GoF Rita Skeeter initially adulates Harry and treats him in an almost sycophantic way, but later she suddenly changes and writes the most hurtful and vicious lies about him. She also does this to others, who then get extremely upset and start getting really emotional. But what does Harry do? He simply dismisses the whole thing with: "Gone off me a bit, hasn't she?" This short quote just sums up Harry for me. This is the sort of thing that makes me love Harry so much. By the way, this quote is so through and through English I doubt if it can be tranlsated into other languages. It typifies the stiff upper lip tradition that the English were well known for (at least, till Di died). For example the impact of this marvellous bit of understatement is totally lost in the Dutch translation. This line is simply translated as, "She doesn't like me so much anymore, does she? The idea of losing an addiction is totally lost. I'd be pleased to hear from people who have read the books in other languages how their translators have coped with this line. Hans in Holland --------------------------------- Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Jun 10 11:38:52 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:38:52 -0000 Subject: list of vocal characters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59789 New to the list - Hi all! Some more names to add to Aesha's list; all in GoF Mr Roberts ( owner of camping ground ) Wizard in plus fours ( who Obliviates Mr Roberts ) Wizard trying to get Archie to wear trousers Saleswizard selling Omnioculars Ministry witch checking tickets Poliakoff from Durmstrang ( asks for more wine at feast ) I've a feeling there're more, but unable to check at the moment. Haven't heard the Jim Dale tapes, but maybe he lost count or, horror of horrors! he's not sticking to the canon! Kneasy From sunny1192 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 08:45:56 2003 From: sunny1192 at yahoo.com (Amanda) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:45:56 -0000 Subject: Draco In-Reply-To: <20030610074840.78317.qmail@web20503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59790 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Cora wrote: > Beckah wrote: > < turn out to be a good guy in the end? I have a theory > that Lucius will die and it will be because of his > association with the dark arts that he is killed. I > think this event will traumatize Draco and make him > rethink exactly how great dark arts are. Either that > or maybe someone like HRH or any other good character > will save Dracos life causing him to take a > different look at his life and the direction it is > taking. >> I understand this isn't exactly a popular theory, but it's one to think about: The idea that Draco may be redeemed solely based upon cowardice. We know that Voldemort is becoming stronger, and as is the current trend, good tends to prevail upon evil. So, feeding off Beckah's post, there's the idea that Draco might rethink his involvement in the Dark Arts... if only because he fears for his own life. I have a difficult time seeing Draco as 'redeemed' in the future because of some sudden moral development ("Oh! How thoughtless of me! Evil's not the way to go at all; it HURTS people!"), likely because he's far too self-involved. So I suppose I'm of the opinion that Draco just might prove to be more loyal to the side of 'good,' but only because he knows Voldemort and his followers will likely be defeated. ~Amanda From am025392 at skynet.be Tue Jun 10 08:48:45 2003 From: am025392 at skynet.be (De Boeck - Ponet) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:48:45 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What other curse scar? References: <20030609211944.68903.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000f01c32f2d$1aad3aa0$d13a88d9@deboeck> No: HPFGUIDX 59791 danielle: Correction, the line is :You'll forgive me, Dumbledore, but I've never heard of a curse scar acting as an alrm bell before....." you've forgot one word, there are more than one curse scars I'm sure, but in this reference Fudge is referring to in general. me : No, sorry, my copy hasn't got "never" in it. It really says : "You'll forgive me, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm bell before..." Kristel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 10 09:12:43 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:12:43 -0000 Subject: Names in goblet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59792 <> >> bboy_mn: > I don't see it as that hard. While the Goblet does have some intelligence, there is nothing to suggest that any magical object, the Sorting Hat, the 'living' paintings, the Goblet, whatever, has the full congnitive, analytical, rational, reasoning thought processes of a human being. The Goblet's job, for purposes of illustration, is to pick the most able and qualified champion from among the list of candidates from EACH school whether it is 3 schools or 10 schools.>>> The Sergeant Majorette, again: *Tri* means *three*. The magical objects I am familiar with (computers), instructed to pick one of column A, one of column B and one of column C, would spit out an error message if instructed to make a fourth choice. In fact cognitive, reasoning human beings as a group are probably easier to bamboozle than analytical and rational non-animate objects. --JDR From trinity61us at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 11:36:17 2003 From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: best lines in the book? In-Reply-To: <3EE563D8.7030304@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20030610113617.66720.qmail@web14908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59793 The best lines in the books? That's easy!!! Start quote... "Percy, however, held out his hand solemnly as though he and Harry had never met and said, "Harry. How nice to see you." "Hello. Percy," said Harry trying not to laugh. "I hope you're well?" said Percy pompously. shaking hands.It was rather like being introduced to the mayor. "Very well, thanks..." "Harry!" said Fred, elbowing Percy out of the way and bowing deeply. "Simply SPLENDID to see you , old boy...." "Marvelous" said George, pushing Fred aside amd seizing Harry's hand in turn. "Absolutely spiffing." Percy scoweled. "That's enough, now," said Mrs. Weasley. "Mum!" said Fred as though he'd only just spotted her and seizing her hand too. "How really corking to see you..." End Quote That NEVER fails to just KILL me!!! Alex Fox-Rickman Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From julie_balfour at hotmail.com Tue Jun 10 11:53:58 2003 From: julie_balfour at hotmail.com (Daisy) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:53:58 -0000 Subject: *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: <20030609171759.65499.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59794 Cindy C wrote: > > Maybe it's > > time for a gut-check -- time for anyone who's > > willing to stand on > > just one OoP prediction to step forward. > > > > And not just any old prediction, either. Let's say > > you only get to > > make *one* prediction. And specificity counts. > and then Eileen wrote: And while Hagrid's a tempting choice to off, he's got something > to do with the giants. And besides, JKR, despite > Cindy's protests, thinks Hagrid is funny. No, Hagrid > shall not die. I disagree! I have *always* thought that Hagrid was going to die in Book 5, from the moment I finished GoF for the first time. I think he will die saving Dumbledore - possibly leaping in front of an Avada Kedavra curse. (*Pictures this for a moment* - OK, OK, maybe not "leaping" anywhere - it's not too dignified is it?) Anyway, I think it's been set up since PS - the emphasis right from Hagrid's introduction was his 100% loyalty to Dumbledore, and I don't think he'd blink for a moment before sacrificing himself. All this was compounded for me with JKR's "horrible to write" quote. Julie From vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be Tue Jun 10 12:40:32 2003 From: vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be (Vicky Gwosdz) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:40:32 -0000 Subject: Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59795 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Cora wrote: > > Beckah wrote: > > < > turn out to be a good guy in the end? I have a theory > > that Lucius will die and it will be because of his > > association with the dark arts that he is killed. I > > think this event will traumatize Draco and make him > > rethink exactly how great dark arts are. Either that > > or maybe someone like HRH or any other good character > > will save Dracos life causing him to take a > > different look at his life and the direction it is > > taking. >> > Me: I also think that Draco will turn around, only I think his motives will be different. I don't think Lucius will die, I think he will turn to the evil side completely after V's return and somehow will kill his wife. This will turn Draco away from his father and will make him want to vengence his mother. My 2 cts, Vicky From gandharvika at hotmail.com Tue Jun 10 12:52:56 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:52:56 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59796 Cindy Wrote: >Now that June 21 is just around the corner (Wow! -- We'll be reading >OoP next weekend!), maybe it's time to get *serious* here. No more >having a whole bunch of vague predictions to your name. Maybe it's >time for a gut-check -- time for anyone who's willing to stand on >just one OoP prediction to step forward. Okay, I'm game. This has been something I've been sitting on for quite a long time and I figure it's as good as time as any to bring it out into the open. GoF, Chapter 36 "The Parting Of The Ways", Dumbledore says to Molly Weasley; "Then I need to send a message to him (Arthur Weasley). All those that we can persuade of the truth must be notified immediately, and Arthur is well placed to contact those at the Ministry who are not as short-sighted as Cornelius." "I'll go to Dad," said Bill, standing up, "I'll go now." "Excellent," said Dumbledore, "Tell him what has happened. Tell him I will be in direct contact with him shortly. He will need to be discreet, however. If Fudge thinks I am interfering at the Ministry-" "Leave it to me," said Bill. Based on this exchange, my Rock-Solid Prediction for OoP is that Mr. Weasley and Bill will recruit a number of MoM employees (particularly Aurors!) who are tired of Fudge's lame politics and are ready to help Dumbledore in his fight against Voldemort. *Then* we're gonna see some kick-butt action. Remember that scene in GoF, chapter 35, "Veritaserum"?: "Stupefy!" There was a blinding flash of red light, and with a great splintering and crashing, the door of Moody's office was blasted apart - At that moment, Harry fully understood for the first time why people said that Dumbledore was the only wizard Voldemort ever feared. The look upon Dumbledore's face as he stared down at the unconscious form of Mad-Eye Moody was more terrible than Harry could ever have imagined. There was no benign smile upon Dumbledore's face, no twinkle in the eyes behind the spectacles. There was cold fury in every line of the ancient face; a sense of power radiated from Dumbledore as though he was giving off burning heat. That scene ROCKS! An I truly believe that we'll be seeing more scenes like this. Included will be a *real* wizard's duel...no namby pamby Lockhart dropping his wand and no inexperienced young students cursing each other in the halls. I'm talking about seasoned wizards who are experts in this area. Aurors (lead by Real!Moody with other members of the Order of the Phoenix) and Deatheaters in a deadly shoot-out! Yow! *And*, if we're really lucky, Hagrid will get caught in the cross-fire. -Gail B...who has already chosen the song for which she'll filk Hagrid's requiem...all I need are the details :)> _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be Tue Jun 10 12:42:45 2003 From: vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be (Vicky Gwosdz) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:42:45 -0000 Subject: Names in goblet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59797 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > < *Tri* means *three*. The magical objects I am familiar with > (computers), instructed to pick one of column A, one of column B and > one of column C, would spit out an error message if instructed to > make a fourth choice. In fact cognitive, reasoning human beings as a > group are probably easier to bamboozle than analytical and rational > non-animate objects. OK, but what if "Tri" does not refer to three schools, but to three tasks, such as in a thriatlon? Or has this been discussed before? My 2 cts, Vicky From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jun 10 13:03:04 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 13:03:04 -0000 Subject: More much ado about money and those damn robes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59798 > > "Why didn't Molly pull Ron aside?" > "For the first time in years, she's got a full house again, with Bill > and Charlie back, and plus she's got two other house guests in Harry > and Hermione.That's a lot of laundry, cleaning and cooking." > > > Hello all, fred Waldrop here: > Not really, just a flick of the wand, and presto, it's done. But I > guess all that wand waving must be oh so tiring though. Then why do House-Elves exist? Ron says that Molly wants one for help around the house, does he not? So, apparently, there is more to it than just waving the wand, if she wants an assistant. Perhaps using magic to do so actually takes some energy out of her. I don't know, but I do know that she wants help, which indicates it's not just flicking a wand with one hand and eating bon bons with the other. Nice try with the sarcasm, though. Better luck next time. > "Plus, she's got three other of her own children, and Harry and > Hermione to shop for, organize clothes, and get packed". > > The 3 other children are old enough to organize and pack their own > cloths, they do in PoA, so why can't they do it a year later? And > Harry surely must know how to put his stuff away, he has been doing > it most his life. Hermione, being as smart as she is, probably knows how to fold a robe and pack it too. And Molly was all alone when she went shopping, so what was the rush? > Then golly, gee, wouldn't Ron know what a dress robe was, since he is the youngest man in the family and his father has some for smart parties and most likely, the older boys have worn them at one point? > "So, I think maybe her thinking that Ron didn't need nursemaiding > through the robes crisis can be forgiven, don't you?" > > Forgiven for looseing her temper, yes. Being a nursemaid instead of a mother, can't see where you get that, he just wanted to know why his robe looked like a dress instead of like Harry's. > People want her to PULL Ron aside and have a heart-to-heart with him... about what, I don't know. How exactly would that conversation go? "Ron, I'm glad we had a chance to have this talk. I sensed that you wouldn't understand, even though you have lived here for 14 years, that we are poor and I couldn't buy you the newest Armani dress robes." I wonder what Fred and George wore to the ball. Wonder if THEY whined like little babies. > "Or perhaps she meant to, but didn't get around to it, what with > other things going on." > > What do you consider more important than your children? As stated > earlier, she was home alone while everyone was at the QWC. So what > kept her from fixing the robe while she was at home all by herself? She went shopping for everyone, was organizing everything, had to make sure they had transportation lined up to the Hogwarts train, most likely prepare meals and then later, was worried sick out of her mind. "Gosh, my husband is missing while the Dark Mark is being conjured in the sky and I have no way of hearing from him or my children, but Ron, if he is still alive, will need dress robes, so let me fix this." > > "We see Ginny stoically repairing a book, where Ron blew his new book money on dungbombs" > > What new book money? You mean in the THIRD YEAR when he went to > Hogmeads? Or was he suppost to be buying his own stuff at 11? I think you have Ron and the twins confussed. In Fantastic Beasts, Ron has to share a book with Harry because he blew his money on Dungabombs instead of buying a book when his fell apart. So, you see his priorities, right there. > > "Far as I can tell, although the other kids certainly are faced with > the poverty, and deal with it in different ways -- Percy by working > that much harder" > > We also see Percy staying at home after he leaves school, being a > burden on his mother and father, even though he has a job himself. We do not see Bill or Charlie doing this. Bill and Charlie got jobs out of town. They are also older. In GoF, Percy is one year out of school. It is not uncommon to stay with your folks one year out of school, especially with an entry-level job. > "Well, since Hermione is destined to become the Headmistress of > Hogwarts, maybe Ron, who is destined to have a job with the Quidditch > Federation, will just have to learn to have a wife that makes more > than him" > > > Hemione headmistress? I would think Prof. McGonagall would be next in line. But, if you think a student in her 5th year is more suited, I guess that's up to you. Me personally, I would go with someone who > has a little more experiance. Look up the word "destined" and I think you'll find that the general idea is that it means SOMETIME IN THE FUTURE. Yes, I suggested that Hermione become Headmistress while still being a student. I think Harry will be the Minister of Magic next year and Ginny will be a full-fledged Auror too. (THAT is sarcasm.) Does this also mean I suggested Ron and Hermione get married in the fifth year? Give unto me a break. And Ron hasn't even played one Quidditch match for Hogwarts, and you > already have him down to nothing more in life. He is only 14 the last we saw of him, and you already say he will never be more than a > quidditch player? I already figured you hated the boy, but let him at least grow to the ripe old age of 16 before you write him off, > alright? This happens all the time out here. You criticize one character for one character trait and someone says, "Well you hate the boy" as if people can't grasp disagreement. I think he'll be a Quidditch commissioner or referee or some such because he absolutely loves it. I figured that will make him happy. I didn't even suggest he was a player, but someone who works with Quidditch, maybe a scout for the Chudley Cannons or something. And again, since you have a hard time with the concept of "destiny" versus "present situation," I mean that Ron will be this, IN THE FUTURE. Darrin -- Has a hard time believing what he reads out here. From catherinemck at hotmail.com Tue Jun 10 13:31:50 2003 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 13:31:50 -0000 Subject: best lines in the book? In-Reply-To: <3EE563D8.7030304@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59799 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Woolfolk wrote: > POA: > "With a roar, Black started toward Snape, but Snape pointed his wand > right between Black's eyes. > "Give me a reason," He whispered. "Give me a reason to do it, and I > swear I will." > > GOF: > "An excellent point," said Professor Dumbledore. "My own brother > Aberforth, was prosecuted for practicing inappropriate charms on a goat." > > Julie W in AR Agree. 100% in total and utter agreement with the above. It just sums up what I love about the books - the combination of humour (bestiality in a children's book, for goodness sake!) and character. Snape?s line is my favourite overall. He's very scary and deadly serious, and he believes that he has all the reason in the world to kill Sirius right now ? and yet he doesn't. He may be about to lose it, but at the crucial moment he retains enough control either to remember that AK is an Unforgiveable and he feels he has something to lose by life in Azkaban, even with Black dead, or that whatever Black has done, Murder is Wrong. And controlled Snape is even scarier than foaming-at-the-mouth Snape; more imagination. Other favourites have to be: GoF (Snape): Potter's been crossing lines since he arrived. (or words to that effect ? his one joke!) Chamber of Secrets: Dobby had to iron his hands (or is that movie contamination?) Catherine McK From melclaros at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 13:56:12 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 13:56:12 -0000 Subject: best lines in the book? In-Reply-To: <3EE563D8.7030304@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59800 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Woolfolk wrote: > POA: > "With a roar, Black started toward Snape, but Snape pointed his wand > right between Black's eyes. > "Give me a reason," He whispered. "Give me a reason to do it, and I > swear I will." > That's the one...that's the one I've been waiting for! I second this nominee! Mel From emeleel at juno.com Tue Jun 10 13:37:53 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:37:53 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Dress Robes Affair Message-ID: <20030610.090143.-484871.0.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59801 On Mon, 09 Jun 2003 01:17:38 +0000 "Jesta Hijinx" writes: > You know - it's so funny that you should mention this particular > dynamic, because it's amazing how many adults grow up to follow this same > pattern - the hinting. I'm in an officer position in a non-profit group to > which I belong, and over Memorial Day weekend I was at an event where a > number of people who were connected with one particular activity wanted > something to happen that they kept dropping by to hint to me about. I stoutly > ignored them, and finally went to one of the officers for that activity and > said, "Please - keep these people out of my hair. Hinting won't do any > good; I will not act until I get official word from you or [the other > officer entitled to ask]." I don't know why people think that hinting is a > better or less demanding method than asking right out, especially on this > coast - they seem to think it is less 'demanding' somehow. > > Anyway, it is annoying in adults, and I can see where, about > teenaged years, parents would want to start to eliminate it, if not sooner. GOOD HEAVENS, YES!!! LOL My oldest is 7 1/2, a boy, and he is the KING of hinting for what he wants. If he's wanting something good (cool toy, game, go to the park, whatever) he hints around at it - "Boy, this sure is cool!" "Wow, I really like that." "You know, if I had ___ I would take such good care of it...." But heaven forbid he's wanting to go against something he doesn't want/want to do. He immediately reacts just like dear ol' Ron - complaining and griping about how he won't do this, won't take that, doesn't want such-n-such, instead of just coming out and saying, "Mom, I don't like this, can we do ____ instead?" (Or can I wait 5 minutes to finish my game, can I tape this show while I take my bath, etc.) I do my best not to blow up at him like poor Molly did at Ron, but then I only have 1 other child to take care of, and I'm not trying to shoo them out the door to school! I do, however, refuse to play the hinting game, and I say kudos to Molly for not falling for it herself. If my son is wanting to have something/do something but won't ask for it, I just smile, nod politely and agree with him that yep, it sure is cool! If he's wanting to go against me, I weigh how much he's griping, whether thereis an alternative, etc. I give him "THE LOOK" and will suggest to him, "Well, what do you need to do about it?". If Molly had not been so exasperated, she might have done the same, and given Ron that little break to rewind, think about it, and realize that he needed to ask for an alternative like getting help with the lace. One last note, I agree with the poster that said that Molly probably *did* intend to speak to Ron about his dress robe, but with the excitement over the DEs at the QWC, and the intervening very busy week, just completely forgot about it. I don't think she ever intended to embarass the poor boy that badly. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 14:18:18 2003 From: morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com (Morgan D.) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:18:18 -0000 Subject: Evil!Lupin, InadvertentKiller!Lupin, Dead!Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59802 amy_marblefeet dropped the bomb: > Well ladies and gentlemen of the jury, Lupin is going > to eat Denis Creevey. And now Morgan D. -- after recovering from the shock -- muses: The reason I doubt Lupin will kill someone in a full-moon frenzy is the same that lead me to doubt Evil!Lupin. JKR used Lupin in PoA to discuss prejudice against people with serious, dangerous diseases -- many of us have drawn parallels with victims of AIDS, mental disorders, etc. If I was to dismiss the moralising speech in the HP books, maybe I could buy Evil!Lupin or InadvertentKiller!Lupin. But the way I see things, I find extremely unlikely that JKR will want to throw all the anti-prejudice arguments of PoA in the trash can. Or do we expect to see Snape saying at the end of the books, "See? I *told* you werewolves can't be trusted", and Dumbledore replying, "You're right, Severus. I learned my lesson, I'll never allow werewolves to have an education again". That would be a dreadful message to victims of AIDS and other diseases, an appalling message to minorities of all kinds, and a terrible lesson to teach the children, in my humble opinion. On the other hand, as much as I love Remus and hope to see him alive and happy in the epilogue of Book 7, I think Dead!Lupin is a real possibility. Lupin making the ultimate sacrifice to protect Harry and/or the Light Magic, proving that indeed "werewolves aren't all bad" (FB&WtFT, p 41, US), that seems to be a scenario to fit the pattern. Then again, it has been discussed here how Hagrid and Lupin apparently represent both the same role (the disfavoured minorities) and that, since there's one too many for the same post, one should die. Well, if that's the case, at this point I tend to think that Hagrid is more likely to kick the bucket. That's because, speaking of fiction with moralising aspects, I think the death of a minority representative should bring redemption to the social group he represents. Now, we were already promised that the Giants will be in the story. So, in my simplistic math, if Hagrid dies gloriously protecting the wizarding world, people will say, "oh my, I think we might have misjudged the Giants, let's call them back and be friends". But Lupin is the only werewolf we know, and so far we don't have any clues pointing to more werewolves showing up. So far, there's no hints that Dead!Lupin might make the lives of other werewolves any better. Just a final comment: many point Dead!Lupin as a strong possibility because of Peter's silver hand. But we don't have any canonical mention to werewolves being vulnerable to silver yet. It's not even mentioned in "Fantastic Beasts" (and I found that particularly curious). Werewolf lore speaks of silver bullets, so we consider this common knowledge, but in fact JKR could very well dismiss this bit of myth as yet another example of Muggles' misconceptions of the magical world. It's her universe after all. Morgan D. Hogwarts Letters - http://www.hogwartsletters.hpg.com.br From maryblue67 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 14:37:45 2003 From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Trip to Egypt? / What other curse scar? In-Reply-To: <1055254739.8712.40123.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030610143745.4105.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59803 Vicky said: Now, if the trip was that expensive that they could only do it because of the money they won, how did they manage to visit him over Christmas and originally plan to bring the twins as well? Me, Maria: this is what i think about the trips to Egypt. If you can use the floo network or a portkey or your broomstick to travel, half the cost goes down (no expensive plane ticket). If you stay at a relative's house, like they would at Bill's (assuming he has an apartment and a sofa or two in which guests can sleep), the trip remains affordable, either for two or for seven people. BUT! If you start doing touristy things, i guess then it's when the cost starts going up: museum tickets, guides, souvenirs, etc. On a completely different topic, Kristel insisted: danielle: Correction, the line is :You'll forgive me, Dumbledore, but I've never heard of a curse scar acting as an alrm bell before....." you've forgot one word, there are more than one curse scars I'm sure, but in this reference Fudge is referring to in general. me : No, sorry, my copy hasn't got "never" in it. It really says : "You'll forgive me, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm bell before..." Now Me, Maria: I think it is correct without the "never". I understand it as a sarcasm on Fudge's side. He is exagerating the affirmation comparing it with an alarm, something ridiculous that reinforces the sarcasm tone that i always read in that sentence. Maria ===== Maryblue ---------------------------------------------------------- "Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love" - Eistein __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Jun 10 14:22:29 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:22:29 -0000 Subject: My "one" most rock solid OoP prediction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59804 This is something I've been expecting since CoS. JKR tries to suit the name to the character - agreed? Well, to my mind the name Weasley is too close to "weasely". Someone in the family is going to become another Pettigrew character - and my money is on Percy - ambitious bureaucrat who will obey any order from a superior and would never cut any slack for anyone. And the result? Death of Ginny. Cheerful to the end, Kneasy From carissaannbyrne at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 14:37:00 2003 From: carissaannbyrne at yahoo.com (Carissa Byrne Hessick) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP Prediction/Evil!Fudge In-Reply-To: <005601c32f03$48514980$9ddc5644@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20030610143700.77572.qmail@web40601.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59805 --- elfundeb wrote: > I vote for Evil! Fudge. . . . > > Fudge is responsible for Neville's memory charm. > And his parents' insanity -- because he had to > break their memory charms to be sure there was > testimony to convict Barty Jr. -- anything to get > rid of a rival for high office. Is there solid/any evidence in the canon that Fudge was involved in Crouch Sr.'s fall from power? I really don't remember anything about this in GoF. However, there may still be some evidence to suggest that Evil!Fudge exists. I was always troubled by his hurry in GoF to have the Dementor's kiss performed on Crouch Jr. -- almost as if there was something that Fudge didn't want Crouch Jr. to be able to say . . . Hmmm . . . Has this been discussed before? I'd be interested in reading that thread. ~ carissa (newbie!) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Tue Jun 10 14:52:14 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:52:14 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco Message-ID: <19c.15da8142.2c174a9e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59806 Bekah writes: > Ok, I'm not sure if this question - or thought- has been discussed, > although I know quite a lot has been written on the subject of Draco. Am I the only > person that thinks that Draco will turn out to be a good guy in the end? I > have a theory that Lucius will die and it will be because of his association > with the dark arts that he is killed. I think this event will traumatize > Draco and make him rethink exactly how great dark arts are. Either that or > maybe someone like HRH or any other good character will save Dracos life causing > him to take a different look at his life and the direction it is taking. I > would love to hear any and all opinions on my train of thought. And if you > think it's rediculously stupid please don't send too many howlers LOL!!!! Amanda replies: I understand this isn't exactly a popular theory, but it's one to think about: The idea that Draco may be redeemed solely based upon cowardice. We know that Voldemort is becoming stronger, and as is the current trend, good tends to prevail upon evil. So, feeding off Beckah's post, there's the idea that Draco might rethink his involvement in the Dark Arts... if only because he fears for his own life. I have a difficult time seeing Draco as 'redeemed' in the future because of some sudden moral development ("Oh! How thoughtless of me! Evil's not the way to go at all; it HURTS people!"), likely because he's far too self-involved. So I suppose I'm of the opinion that Draco just might prove to be more loyal to the side of 'good,' but only because he knows Voldemort and his followers will likely be defeated. Me (Cassie) adds: I agree with Amanda. I just can't see a fully redeemed Draco. However! I have my own theory that I think works nicely. it's the 'Draco becomes a temporary ally' theory. I can't predict what will happen exactly, of course, but I have a feeling there might be a time when the two enemies will have to work together (much like Snape and Black). ^^ ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From naama_gat at hotmail.com Tue Jun 10 14:52:40 2003 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:52:40 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: <20030609212230.39923.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59807 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Eileen wrote: > > But meanwhile, Crouch Sr. WAS characterized as tired. > Another point for my theory. I don't think Crouch should count as an example, since his tiredness was the result of being Imperioed (and fighting against it, presumably). I wouldn't say it *characterizes* him. Secondly, what about Gandalf? He's described as tired, looking old, etc., but he doesn't die. On the contrary, the weariness functions as a cloak that hides his strength. For this reason, I've always disagreed with the whole line of argument that sees in the descriptions of Dumbledore as old and tired a foreshadowing of his death. If anything, I see the scenes where JKR underlines how strong and vigorous Dumbledore is despite his look of age, foreshadow his survival and triumph. Naama, who refuses to put any money on any prediction, but thinks that JKR will do a Voldemort and kill either Fred or George (i.e., the spare). From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 15:18:35 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: best lines in the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030610151835.96721.qmail@web40505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59808 I just ran across a good one while rereading GoF. It's on page 236 in the US paperback, chapter 15. Excuse me, I dont like people just because theyre handsome! said Hermione indignantly. Ron gave a loud false cough, which sounded oddly like Lockhart! This is another thing that is just so Ron, I love it! ~Kathryn __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From burgess at cynjut.net Tue Jun 10 15:24:11 2003 From: burgess at cynjut.net (David Burgess) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:24:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: SPOILER? for OOTP voices? In-Reply-To: <1055189892.4905.25466.m11@yahoogroups.com> References: <1055189892.4905.25466.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <1150.192.168.3.254.1055258651.squirrel@www.cynjut.net> No: HPFGUIDX 59809 > > Cindy C. listed what could be the "new" characters in OotP: >> Arabella Figg >> Mundungus Fletcher >> Mrs. Longbottom >> Mrs. Longbottom >> Dedalus Diddle >> Mr. Lestrange >> Real Moody >> >> Gah! I'm stuck. Who else could there be? > > And now Morgan D. adds: > > I was expecting Fridwulfa to make an appearance. (new character) > > I was also expecting to see the Grangers (Hermione's parents) actually > have some dialogue lines for a change (old characters that never spoke > in previous books, so Jim Dale probably wasn't counting them when he > gave the numbers for GoF). > > And I'm obviously expecting Remus to be back (old character that wasn't > in GoF, so Dale shouldn't have counted him either). > > Does that help any? > I read the original article, and it said that he had increased the number of voices *in his resume* from 125 to 134. I took this to mean that there are 9 new character voices in OOTP. Not new characters, or characters that were in other books. Since he's talking about the body of work that he has undertaken as part of his resume, I'm taking that to mean that he's not bringing back voices from previous books so that he can count them twice. If that was the case, why wouldn't he just add every character in every book as a new voice? -- Dave Burgess CTO and Chief Engineer, Nebraska On-Ramp Bellevue, NE 68123 From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Jun 10 15:39:06 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:39:06 -0000 Subject: More much ado about money and those damn robes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59810 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > People want her to PULL Ron aside and have a heart-to-heart with him... about what, I don't know. How exactly would that conversation go? > > "Ron, I'm glad we had a chance to have this talk. I sensed that you wouldn't understand, even though you have lived here for 14 years, that we are poor and I couldn't buy you the newest Armani dress robes."> LOL! You make an excellent (if not a simply excellently sarcastic) point here. I would hate to think that Molly would have to tell her son, after 14 years, that the Weasley family is poor. That would make both of them morons, and they're not. However, Molly could pull Ron aside and remind him to have better manners in front of guests. I was not always the most tactful child and suffered the consequences when my mom took gifts back from me. Ron needs a firm reminder here about 1) complaining about things he cannot control 2) airing his family's dirty laundry in front of guests. Molly could also (as I've said before) make her children do more around the house so they can all learn some responsibility, Ron in particular. Then maybe he won't treat his mother so disrespectfully. > Darrin > -- Has a hard time believing what he reads out here.> --jenny from ravenclaw, who, as of late, has written some of the dumbest stuff out there and needs to get her head out of the clouds fast *********************************************************** From tammy at mauswerks.net Tue Jun 10 16:06:17 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:06:17 -0400 Subject: My *ONE* big prediction for OotP Message-ID: <3EE5C9B9.23578.27BC11E@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 59811 Some of you may vaguely remember a few thoughts I've forwarded to the list from my sister (who can't subscribe at the moment but really does belong here). Well, I collected some of the 'rock solid' predictions and sent them for her to read, and she came back with this message, which she asked me to post for her. ========== Shelly, Tammy's sister, writes: OK, how's this for a bangsty theory: Ron confides his feelings for Hermione to Harry. Harry is torn between Ginny and Cho, and seeks out Hermione, privately, for some female advice. Ron gets wind of the private chat, and interprets it the wrong way. His jealousy explodes, and he accuses Harry of betraying him, and LEAVES THE TRIO. Colin, seeing the split, horns in on Ron's place, and becomes Harry's new best buddy. On the fateful night, toward the end of the year, when Voldemort makes his appearance, the Trio is faced with a chilling, sadistic choice. Voldemort has two hostages, and there's only a chance to save ONE of them. Harry has to choose between saving Ron and saving Dennis Creevey. Ron, who had deserted him, or poor, innocent, baby-brother to new best buddy, and too cute, to boot, Dennis Creevey. Harry chooses to save Ron, of course, and too cute to live Dennis dies. Colin, outraged at the betrayal by his hero, secretly meets with Draco, and subsequently becomes the first Muggle-born junior Death Eater. Do I qualify for a Featherboa? ========== *** Tammy tammy at mauswerks.net *** Tammy tammy at mauswerks.net From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Tue Jun 10 16:08:44 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:08:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030610160844.39466.qmail@web20413.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59812 --- naamagatus wrote: > > I don't think Crouch should count as an example, > since his tiredness > was the result of being Imperioed (and fighting > against it, > presumably). Look, you take your canons where you can get them. ;-) I have money, believe it or not, riding on this. Cindy goaded me into betting against a friend that Lupin would die in Book V. I wouldn't say it *characterizes* him. > Secondly, what about Gandalf? He's described as > tired, looking old, > etc., but he doesn't die. On the contrary, the > weariness functions as > a cloak that hides his strength. Well, he did die. Just not permanently. :-) I don't think Dumbledore will do a Gandalf, because of that line in PS/SS, where he talks almost longingly of death. Gandalf never did any of that. Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From eliwamp at hotmail.com Tue Jun 10 14:51:43 2003 From: eliwamp at hotmail.com (Chris) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:51:43 -0000 Subject: St. Mungo's and the Longbottoms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59813 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "blackstripe61" wrote: > What if there is more to Neville Longbottom then meets the eye. > I think he is going to play a major role in future HP books, I think > he may have some great secret about him, maybe a mystery power. We > all know that Neville is very forgetful person. I think there might > be a powerful Memory Charm placed upon him, which explains how come > he is so forgetful, since major Memory Charms can be harmful. He > knows what happened to his parent, so what is the charm for? Maybe, > to make him forget magical things he could do as a baby, or anything > really magical about his childhood. We all know his parents are > Aurors, so he probaly has some strong magical abilities and he does > have sudden bouts of courage. I based this on the fact that Neville > is the same age as Harry. So he would be the same age as Harry when > Voldemort was live and kickng, therefore a baby. > > Adam I agree there is more to Neville. I think the memory charm is more to make him forget *who* he saw. Not sure why though b/c being a baby he would not have been able to verbalize it, but maybe in the WW they can extract information from babies another way. I don't think Neville's strength is going to be played out on the Quidditch field. Remember his strong point is Herbology? Also, he brings a toad to school as a pet he got from his Great Uncle Algie, and Moody gives him a book on Magical Water Plants of the Mediterranean. Just some more food for thought. What do you think? Chris M. From YahooGroups at TaprootTech.com Tue Jun 10 13:32:34 2003 From: YahooGroups at TaprootTech.com (vivamus42) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 13:32:34 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59814 Okay. One most rock-solid prediction. Let's see, it's making *one* that is hardest. Some, like Arabella Figg as DADA and Harry's Secret Keeper, Ron as Gryffindor Keeper, and Hagrid going to the Giants are too obvious. Ahh, I know. I made this prediction last year on another list, but I haven't seen it in here yet (but I haven't read everything, by far.) It's actually an entire chain of predictions, but they all hang together. And I think the rock it is solid on is more like ice in a spring thaw, but it's too interesting not to mention. Anyway, here goes . . . We will see St. Mungo's as Neville goes to visit his his parents there (and by the way we will see Lockhart there, and learn more about why he was a nasty climber, but he's coming out as a better person this time.) In the visit, we'll find out that Neville's memory is bad because he can't bear the memories of seeing his parents suffering, and his grandmother charms his memory so he won't remember it at school. Somehow (perhaps as a result of an encounter with Lockhart) the memory charms aren't placed this time, or break, or stop working because of Lockharts anti-forgetfulness treatment. So Neville returns to school knowing, for the first time, his parents condition. He leaves school with Ginny Weasley on some kind of quest to help his parents -- perhaps their suffering will go away if the ones who placed the curses on them were to die. In the course of the book, Neville will save his parents, who will be freed from their curse, but Neville will die, either in the process of saving his parents, or in the process of saving Harry. If Neville lives, he will of course no longer be an almost-squib. If he dies, his death will be the "horrible death." To be even more specific, I think the Neville/Ginny team will be successful in saving Neville's parents, and that will open a whole new world of ability and happiness for Neville. When Neville dies saving Harry's life (or maybe Ginny's) at the end, it will be all the more horrible for all that Neville suffered, only to be struck down by Voldemort in the end. Ginny will have been dating Neville through most of OotP, and their relationship will finally break the little-girl-crush pattern of her relationship with Harry, and Neville's death (I think saving Harry's life with Ginny's assistance) will pave the way for Harry and Ginny in a future book. Vivamus From cristina_angelo at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 15:14:09 2003 From: cristina_angelo at yahoo.com (Cristina Rebelo Angelo) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:14:09 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: best lines in the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59815 Right... after much thinking, rereading, and looking over my shoulder on other answers, I've finally managed to pinpoint THE line that, from the very start, has got me toes curled up in laughter... SS/PS Chapter 7 (page 125 for the Scholastic first paperback edition) Sorting over, on to the feast, Duumbledore: "Welcome to a new year in Hogwarts! Before we begin our banquet, I would like to say a few words. And here they are: Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" Here we have the greatest wizard of all, whom we had already met and found not really frightening, but still... venerable... big school principal... and he's Monty Phyton... Really... I just love the Brits... I still quote this one, or do variations on it, from time to time... ************************** Cristina Rebelo ngelo Any attached file not mentioned in the body of the message may be a virus; if present, delete it for the sake of your computer, and inform the sender. Thank you. "Quand on n'a que l'amour/ Pour tracer un chemin/ Et forcer le destin/ A chaque carrefour Quand on n'a que l'amour/ Pour parler aux canons/ Et rien qu'une chanson/ Pour coinvancre un tambour Alors sans avoir rien/ Que la force d'aimer/ Nous aurons dans nos mains/ Amis le monde entier" J.Brel 1956 ICQ 106.255.886 HPGCv1 a31 e++ x+ -- z+++ A27 Rhp HPa S+++ Mo HaP++ HG++ RW++ AD++ RH+++ VK& NhN& SB& DM--- O++ F sfD From dkratzer at wownet.com Tue Jun 10 15:23:32 2003 From: dkratzer at wownet.com (Dan) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:23:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who will die in books 5, 6, 7 References: Message-ID: <004201c32f64$416e0430$1400a8c0@danielbhfl37cx> No: HPFGUIDX 59816 Hi all, i've finally come out of lurking in the shadows of the common room. My first post so please excuse my blundering if it seems to go on forever. kcartweel said: > > I think that it would be really funny if snape sacrificed himself to > save Harry that would be most unexpected. > My thoughts: I like this idea and think it would be very interesting to see happen. It would definitely be a twist on the hate relationship between the two. Melanie Bond said: > Any other ones? I dont think that Ron, Molly or any of them will die > because they are Harry's fam. and it would be really sad if Harry > doesn't have anyone (again) I think the one that will be a certainty besides your theory of Dumbledore is Severus Snape. Referencing GoF chpt 33 (US paperback pg 651), Voldemort says, "And here we have six missing Death Eaters...three dead in my service. One to cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever...he will be killed of course...and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service." The way I read this was that the one too cowardly to return was Karakroff because as Krum stated before the Durmstrang ship left, he still hadn't been seen, the most faithful servant turned out to be Crouch Jr., and I read the one that he believes as left forever to be Severus Snape who will be killed. I haven't really found anything to prove that he knows it is Snape, but we know from PoA that Scabbers turned out to be Wormtail who went back to Voldemort and would know that Snape is now faithful to Dumbledore. Wouldn't he have passed that knowledge on to Voldemort? Anyways...that's my thoughts on the one person whom I think will definitely be a given as a death in the upcoming books...maybe not by sacrificing his life to save Harry, but if Snape really is going back into service as a spy for Dumbledore and Voldemort already knows he's faithful to the good...he would have to opportunity to extinguish Snape as soon as he showed his face. From lynn_mdq at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 15:55:52 2003 From: lynn_mdq at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andrea=20Lynn?=) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:55:52 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] best lines in the book? In-Reply-To: <20030609152040.70343.qmail@web41902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030610155552.26572.qmail@web41607.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59817 My favourite funny lines: "Where is Wood?" said Harry, suddenly realizing he wasn't there. "Still in the showers," said Fred. "We think he's trying to drown himself." "Well...when we were in our first year, Harry--young, carefree, and innocent--" Harry snorted. He doubted whether Fred and George had ever been innocent. "You don't know how bizarre it is to see Goyle thinking" - Ron "Bad news, Harry. I've just been to see Professor McGonagall about the Firebolt. She - er got a bit shirty with me. Told me I'd got my priorities wrong. Seemed to think I cared more about winning the Cup than I do about staying alive. Just because I told her I didn't care if it threw you off, as long as you caught the Snitch first." - Oliver Wood "Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs," sighed George, patting the heading of the map. "We owe them so much." "Noble men, working tirelessly to help a new generation of lawbreakers." said Fred solemnly..." I love these lines, and of course my favourite one though it is not funny: "what comes will come and we'll face it when it does" Andrea --------------------------------- Yahoo! Sorteos Juega a la Loter?a Primitiva sin salir de casa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lynn_mdq at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 16:07:52 2003 From: lynn_mdq at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andrea=20Lynn?=) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:07:52 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] best lines in the book? In-Reply-To: <20030609152040.70343.qmail@web41902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030610160752.63628.qmail@web41603.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59818 Hi Robert, these quotes make me think that you can even read beetween lines in them .... that's why they're some of my favourite ones: "There is no good and evil, there is only power...and those too weak to seek it." -Quirrel "If you made a better rat than a human, that's not much to boast about." -Sirius Black "To the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure." -Albus Dumbledore "Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where it keeps its brain." -Arthur Weasley "It is our choices Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." -Dumbledore "Fear of a name increases fear of a thing itself." -Dumbledore "Humans have a knack for choosing precisely the things that are worst for them." -Dumbledore "If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." -Sirius Black "Remember Cedric. Remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy who was good, and kind, and brave, because he strayed across the path of Lord Voldemort. Remember Cedric Diggory." -Dumbledore "I don't need a cloak to become invisible." -Dumbledore "I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death -- if you aren't as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach." -Snape Andrea Lynn (from Argentina) --------------------------------- Yahoo! Sorteos Juega a la Loter?a Primitiva sin salir de casa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 16:42:10 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:42:10 -0000 Subject: PoA: Chapter 19 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59819 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/10/2003 3:05:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > chuck_richie_99 at y... writes: > > > ... Black states Voldy has, "been in hiding for fifteen years." > > Fifteen? What happened to 12? Why hiding for the extra 3 years? > > Typo? Anyone? > > Personally, I think Sirius has slipped a cog... I think it's > just a typo that got through. > > Sherrie bboy_mn: Possible answers- 1.) It was a generalization; he, Sirius, rounded it off. It's also possible the precise mathimatical calculations were not a high priority at the moment, so he gave a 'ball park' figure. 2.) Voldemort was in hiding at an earlier time, but for different reasons. Given that he was the most feared and evil, not to mention criminal Dark Lord in the wizard world, it's unlikely he was having lunch everyday in Diagon Alley. 3.) JKR forgot and SHE rounded off the number. Just a thought. bboy_mn From Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 10 16:50:21 2003 From: Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com (newdella) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:50:21 -0000 Subject: Draco In-Reply-To: <20030610040555.64939.qmail@web41501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59820 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Sylvester wrote: > Ok, I'm not sure if this question - or thought- has been discussed, although I know quite a lot has been written on the subject of Draco. Am I the only person that thinks that Draco will turn out to be a good guy in the end? I have a theory that Lucius will die and it will be because of his association with the dark arts that he is killed. I think this event will traumatize Draco and make him rethink exactly how great dark arts are. Either that or maybe someone like HRH or any other good character will save Dracos life causing him to take a different look at his life and the direction it is taking. I would love to hear any and all opinions on my train of thought. And if you think it's rediculously stupid please don't send too many howlers LOL!!!! > > > Beckah I think that Draco will never see the "light". I also think that Lucius will die because of his association with LV. However, I think that event will impact Draco to make him worse then he is now so that he could take over for his father. Just my 2 knuts. Rosebeth From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 17:06:35 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:06:35 -0000 Subject: Draco In-Reply-To: <20030610040555.64939.qmail@web41501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59821 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Sylvester wrote: > ... Am I the only person that thinks that Draco will turn out to be a good guy in the end? I have a theory that Lucius will die and it will be because of his association with the dark arts that he is killed. I think this event will traumatize Draco ...edited... And if you think it's rediculously stupid please don't send too many howlers LOL!!!! > > > Beckah bboy_mn: You are definitely NOT the only person who believes in a Redeemable Draco. I'm not totally swayed in his favor, but I do have a theory as to how and why he might join the good side. I think Draco has lead a very sheltered life and has never really had to deal with life's harsh realities. Right now Draco supports Voldemort and the DE's based on nothing but his fathers rhetoric. I think once Draco is force to face reality, once he sees face-to-face what it means to be a Death Eater, it will suddenly not seem very appealing to him. Draco sees his father as a powerful and unyielding man. I'm sure he will be quite surprised then he sees his father crawling on the ground groveling like a petty servant, and kissing Voldemort rosey red... er... robe hem. Draco is also somewhat of a coward. He has never had to confront the harder more cruel aspects of life. I think once he has to face the Cruciatus curse and the Death curse directly, or perhaps is force to apply them directly, he will suddenly realize that being a Death Eater is not all tea and crumpets. As a side note, I think Voldemort will either use the Pain Curse on Draco and/or Lucius, and that will stongly convince Draco that supporting Voldemort is a lost cause. Next, to some extent Draco has his own 'god' complex, or superiority complex. Darco is lord, he is not lorded over. When he sees his father groveling like a servant, he will lose respect for him, and he will be determined not to lower himself to being someone else's servant. Once Draco sees all this, he will give some deep thought to Voldemort's cause, and realize that it's truly is a lost cause. The world Voldemort will create will be a world in ruin, total disarray, and he will realize the while Voldemort may make a great dictator, he is incapable of running a stable properous country. What good is a world that has become a wasteland? What good is a population decimated and the economy and commerce in total ruin? Not much. Draco fancies a future as a prosperous and powerful man in a prosperous and powerful world, a world is which he, Draco, is the master of his domain, and that is not likely to happen with Voldemort. Even after Draco comes over to the good side, he will still be Draco. He will still be a severe odds with Ron and Harry. He will still be a total jerk. And he will be on the good side because it is the side that most effectively serves his future interests. He will be on the good side not because it is the right thing to do, but because it is the right thing to do for Draco Malfoy. PS: I also believe there is a chance that Lucius will turn against Voldemort for the same reasons. After more than a decade of living a stable, comfortable, prosperous, and successful life, Lucius will see the the instability and chaos the Voldemort is offering is not such a good deal afteral. This is especially likely to occur if it looks like things are not going well for Voldemortt. More than Voldemort winning, both Draco and Lucius want to make sure that THEY are on the winning side. Just a thought. bboy_mn From ultimatesen at aol.com Tue Jun 10 17:08:03 2003 From: ultimatesen at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:08:03 -0000 Subject: Harry's money (was Ron, Harry, Molly, Money) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59822 Felina: But given the Dursleys' material orientation, perhaps he overheard or witnessed budgeting and planning there. Even given that, I would think the natural temptation would be to rebel against that. :-) I'm kind of amazed he didn't go on a spending spree right after he opened the Gringott's vault. me: I have to disagree. I think Harry's got a good enough head on his shoulders to know this is *all* the money he's got at least until he's out making his own money. I would imagine he'd have to figure on being prepared for at least 6 months after he leaves Hogwarts for some sort of living expenses. I *don't* see him going back to Privet Drive after he's finally done with Hogwarts. He does splurge here and there, but remember in PoA how much self control he had when it came to the Firebolt and buying vs just looking. He probably could have bought it and had money left over, but he himself (don't have the exact quote) made it a point that he's got several years of Hogwarts left. I think he budgets himself and takes out enough money at the beginning of each summer to cover his Hogwarts expenses (books, etc.) plus a *little* extra for some spending money. Sen *10 days to go* From twoplus3 at juno.com Tue Jun 10 17:11:23 2003 From: twoplus3 at juno.com (pastafor5) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:11:23 -0000 Subject: What other curse scar?Mistake In-Reply-To: <000f01c32f2d$1aad3aa0$d13a88d9@deboeck> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59823 It looks like there was a misprint in this sentence that was later corrected. In my American version, it says "never heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm bell...," but in my English version, the word "never" is missing. It's only my guess that the word "never" should have been in there, unless the English book's version was meant as a sarcasm. I hope this helps. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "De Boeck - Ponet" wrote: > danielle: > Correction, the line is :You'll forgive me, > Dumbledore, but I've never heard of a curse scar > acting as an alrm bell before....." > you've forgot one word, there are more than one curse > scars I'm sure, but in this reference Fudge is > referring to in general. > > > me : > > No, sorry, my copy hasn't got "never" in it. It really says : "You'll forgive > me, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse scar > acting as an alarm bell before..." > Kristel > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drdara at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 17:14:04 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What other curse scar? In-Reply-To: <000f01c32f2d$1aad3aa0$d13a88d9@deboeck> Message-ID: <20030610171404.3467.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59824 I have the US edition PB, Chap 36 pg 706 if you have the UK version maybe it's a misprint, because without the never it doesn't make since. If you take the never than Fudge should believe DD and Harry. After this line Harry shouted" Look, I saw Voldemort come back!" Please will anyone else from the US with US versions back me up with this. --- De Boeck - Ponet wrote: > danielle: > Correction, the line is :You'll forgive me, > Dumbledore, but I've never heard of a curse scar > acting as an alrm bell before....." > you've forgot one word, there are more than one > curse > scars I'm sure, but in this reference Fudge is > referring to in general. > > > me : > > No, sorry, my copy hasn't got "never" in it. It > really says : "You'll forgive > me, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse scar > acting as an alarm bell before..." > Kristel > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From innermurk at catlover.com Tue Jun 10 17:16:05 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:16:05 -0000 Subject: Harry's money (was Ron, Harry, Molly, Money) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59825 > Felina: > But given the Dursleys' material orientation, perhaps he overheard or > witnessed budgeting and planning there. > > Even given that, I would think the natural temptation would be to > rebel against that. :-) I'm kind of amazed he didn't go on a > spending spree right after he opened the Gringott's vault. I innermurk want to reply: He almost tried to. Remember Hagrid stopped him from buying a solid gold cauldron "It says pewter on your list" and other things that first shopping day. Then he meets Ron and I think he starts to think about money and realizes the wizarding world needs budgeting as well. Harry has self preservation instincts. Otherwise he would NOT be alive. He realizes that he needs to save and spend wisely, which is why he doesn't buy the Firebolt, even though he really wanted to. I also think this is why the Weasley's don't expect him to pay them much beyond gratitude for his stays with them. They're getting by, and have replenishable resources. Harry's gold has to do for the rest of his childhood. It isn't replenishable until he gets paid work. Perhaps after he's settled in a nice paying job with a place to live, they'll be more open to the gift of a new owl, or something like that. Innermurk From innermurk at catlover.com Tue Jun 10 17:22:09 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:22:09 -0000 Subject: SHIP some OOP from JKR interview Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59826 I was perusing through the new Floo Network, and was excited to read a much more friendly formatted collection of JKR interviews. In one of them I found the following: "She even hints that one of the long-standing characters will be wiped out in the forthcoming three books. There will also be further romance following on from Harry Potter And The Goblet Of Fire in which he has a date with a quidditch team-mate - and develops more of an interest in pal Hermione. Rowling said there will be "more boy-girl stuff, inevitably", adding: "They're 15 now, hormones working overtime. And Harry has to ask some questions that I hope the reader will think 'well why hasn't he asked this before'?" This is the url: http://www.ananova.com/entertainment/story/sm_480162.html Now, my question is: who is Harry dating from the quidditch team? Does this mean that there will be another girl added, or is he dating Angelina or Katie? Of course, it might mean from a different house, but then I wouldn't term it team-mate. Hmmm. Then there's the part about Hermione, which seems to indicate that FITD is on its way into cannon. Also, the questions Harry's been asking seem to be tied to relationship stuff here, but I'd always thought it was meant questions about his parents. Anyway, thought I'd share. Innermurk From ultimatesen at aol.com Tue Jun 10 17:35:37 2003 From: ultimatesen at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:35:37 -0000 Subject: Trip to Egypt? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59827 Vicky: Coming back to the expensive or not so expensive trip to Egypt to visit Bill by the Weasleys in the summer before year 3. While rereading CoS (as anyone here in anticipation for book 5) I noticed that the Weasleys also visited Bill during the Chistmas break and even intended to bring at least some of the kids. It says in the book (no exact quote) that "Fred and George decided to stay at Hogwarts for the Christmas break instead of joining their parents in visiting Bill in Egypt". Now, if the trip was that expensive that they could only do it because of the money they won, how did they manage to visit him over Christmas and originally plan to bring the twins as well? Me: Besides the fact I think the summer trip to Egypt was useless. They could've better spent the money. (Yes I know it was a plot setup for SB to see the picture of Scabbers, but they could've easily done a picture in front of Gringotts with the whole family possibly?) I think that the actual traveling in the WW is pretty much free. Apparartion is free (from what we've seen). Floo powder seems to be "buy a bag and be done with it". The only mode of transportation we've seen that charges is the Knight Bus. It may be that their trip to Egypt was pretty much next to nothing. Why wouldn't Bill allow them to stay with him as long as he had a big enough place? The Christmas trip was only Mr & Mrs Weasley and Ginny (yes I'm assuming here, but I don't think any parent would leave a 10 yr old girl at home while they were on vacation. Especially during Christmas). The summer trip they probably had to splurge and get a hotel. I still think they probably only had to worry about hotel/food/extras. Sen From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 17:38:13 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What other curse scar?Mistake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030610173813.95007.qmail@web21002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59828 pastafor5 wrote:It looks like there was a misprint in this sentence that was later corrected. In my American version, it says "never heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm bell...," but in my English version, the word "never" is missing. It's only my guess that the word "never" should have been in there, unless the English book's version was meant as a sarcasm. I hope this helps. Me: It must have been a typo in only one printing because I've looked at several American versions and in all mine the word "never" is indeed there. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hollydaze at btinternet.com Tue Jun 10 17:44:34 2003 From: hollydaze at btinternet.com (Hollydaze) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:44:34 +0100 Subject: OoP SPOILER: Number of New Characters References: Message-ID: <004e01c32f78$23b129e0$3b348351@j0dhe> No: HPFGUIDX 59829 OK I may be missing something here but surely it doesn't necessarily follow that all 125 voices in GoF or all 134 voices in OoP will be named characters (new or otherwise). How many voices are there in the previous books that are just that voices (un-named people who speak). Just as an example here's list of most of the ones from the previous books: BOOK 1 1) Whisperer 1 2) Whisperer 2 3) Receptionist at the Railview Hotel. 4) Unnamed person in the Leaky Cauldron 1 5) Unnamed person in the Leaky Cauldron 2 6) Witch in Apothecary 7) Boy outside Broom shop 8) Goblin at Gringotts 9) Mystery Child 1 10) Mystery Child 2 11) Mystery Child 3 12) Mystery Child 4 13) Mystery Child 5 14) Mystery Child 6 15) Unnamed Ravenclaw BOOK 2 1) News Reporter 2) Witch carrying fingernails. 3) Wizard at door of Flourish and Blotts 4) Photographer. 5) Spider BOOK 3 1) Square jawed wizard 2) Little boy 3) Father 4) Manager of Flourish and Blotts 5) Witch in Magical Menagerie 6) Ravenclaw Girl 7) Hufflepuff 5th year 8) Sweet shop owner 9) Mystery Gryffindor 1 10) Mystery Gryffindor 2 11) Mystery Gryffindor 3 12) Mystery Gryffindor 4 13) Mystery Gryffindor 5 14) Person form the committee 4 the D of D creatures BOOK 4 1) House elf 2) House elf 3) Riddle's maid 4) Riddle's Cook 5) Woman at the bar 6) Man at the bar 7) Landlord 8) Dot's friend 9) Witch Mother at QWC 10) Baby Wizard "You bust slug" 11) Ministry Wizard 12) Ministry Wizard 13) Saleswizard 14) Ministry Witch 15) Ministry Witch 16) Person in crowd 17) 6th Year 18) Merman 19) Merman 20) Juror who thanks Bagman 21) Witch with Crouch Jr (Mrs Lestrange ?) Those are a selection of a list of all the "voices" in the previous 4 books that I put together. "So what?" you may ask, well surely those voices are going to count toward the total number of voices that Jim Dale is providing? If this is the case then just within GoF, 21/125 voices are not actual characters but "non-entities" -I apologise to these un-named "voices" ;)- and that's not even a full list. So unless we know how many "voices" rather than named characters there are in OoP, you can't really work out how many characters are going to appear can you? So we can't really say there are nine new characters and presume they are people like Mundungus Fletcher, for all we know we could have exactly the same set of named speaking characters (VERY unlikely I know) and the rest, including the extra nine, could be "voices" like this list. Lynn wrote: > First, there are some posts focusing on just GoF > but from this post it suggests that he was > speaking about all 4 books so all characters > covered in the first four are included. Cindy also said she interpreted it this way however, (I'm writing this offline so I can't actually check) I thought what the report actually said was that he had recorded 125 voices for the fourth book only (the number of voices he would have done for all 4 books is over 175 let alone 125 - see P.S. below) HOLLYDAZE!!! P.S. And in case you're wondering about the list, about 2 years ago, I was really bored so I read through the books and jotted down all the "things" that talked (including objects), there are some missing in this list as it is only a selection though. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jun 10 17:44:58 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:44:58 -0000 Subject: Evil!Lupin, InadvertentKiller!Lupin, Dead!Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59830 Morgan D. wrote: >>If I was to dismiss the moralising speech in the HP books, maybe I could buy Evil!Lupin or InadvertentKiller!Lupin. But the way I see things, I find extremely unlikely that JKR will want to throw all the anti-prejudice arguments of PoA in the trash can. Or do we expect to see Snape saying at the end of the books, "See? I *told* you werewolves can't be trusted", and Dumbledore replying, "You're right, Severus. I learned my lesson, I'll never allow werewolves to have an education again". That would be a dreadful message to victims of AIDS and other diseases, an appalling message to minorities of all kinds, and a terrible lesson to teach the children, in my humble opinion.<< I don't think Evil!Lupin would send a bad message for real life. It's always possible to find people who fit a negative stereotype all too well, especially if you go out looking for them. As we know already, some Slytherins are cruel, some Muggles are Dursleyish, etc. If the bad behavior of one werewolf *is* justification for mistrusting all of them, then Snape is right, but I think we'll see that he isn't. I think if Snape makes any such argument, it will be undermined especially if by that time we have discovered that he is a vampire. I think JKR would like to show us that prejudice is not only self-defeating but ridiculous. I don't think JKR believes that werewolves are real (sorry, Grey!) She probably isn't concerned that making Lupin a villain will hurt anybody's feelings or foster distrust in the real world. Nor do I think JKR intends us to lose all sympathy for Lupin. I think we'll be made very conscious of the person he could have been if he had not allowed the hatred he met with to take root inside him. That will make the lessons of PoA even more poignant, IMO. It's the Trio's reactions that are going to carry the moral lesson. What counts is not how the WW would react to the revelation of Lupin's treachery, but what the Trio do about it. So far, of course, we haven't met other werewolves, but it's been made very plain that they exist, and are distrusted. Wouldn't it be a powerful statement if the Trio conceal their knowledge of Lupin's treachery so that other werewolves will be shielded from the unjust consequences? We'll be able to see that Ron and Hermione ("Don't trust him! He's a werewolf!") have grown. And if Lupin's death is only supposedly heroic, it would still bring redemption to his group. Pippin From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Tue Jun 10 17:53:25 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:53:25 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59831 >I don't think Crouch should count as an example, since his tiredness >was the result of being Imperioed (and fighting against it, >presumably). I wouldn't say it *characterizes* him. >Secondly, what about Gandalf? He's described as tired, looking old, >etc., but he doesn't die. On the contrary, the weariness functions as >a cloak that hides his strength. >For this reason, I've always disagreed with the whole line of >argument that sees in the descriptions of Dumbledore as old and tired >a foreshadowing of his death. If anything, I see the scenes where JKR >underlines how strong and vigorous Dumbledore is despite his look of >age, foreshadow his survival and triumph. > Yaah...and think of Yoda, hobbling around on his walking stick until he kicks some serious Dooku butt with his lightsabre duel. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 17:55:07 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:55:07 -0000 Subject: Names in goblet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59832 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > < ....how dumb does a magic object have to be to be fooled into > thinking there could be a *fourth* entrant in a *tri*-wizard > tournament?>> > > >> bboy_mn: > > I don't see it as that hard. ..... The Goblet's job, for purposes > > of illustration, is to pick the most able and qualified champion > > from among the list of candidates from EACH school whether it is > 3 schools or 10 schools.>>> > > The Sergeant Majorette, again: > *Tri* means *three*. The magical objects I am familiar with > (computers), instructed to pick one of column A, one of column B and > one of column C, would spit out an error message if instructed to > make a fourth choice. In fact cognitive, reasoning human beings as a > group are probably easier to bamboozle than analytical and rational > non-animate objects. > --JDR bboy_mn: Easy to see that if you were a programmer, you would be doing a lot of re-programming (no offense intended). A point I made in my original post which I now reframe into a computer model, is that a good programer builds flexibility into his program. If the creator of the Goblet of Fire took the number of school to be a variable rather than a constant, that might create a point in the 'programming' that was less secure, and therefore, easily bamboozled but a confundus charm. Using the computer model, it could just as easily read all the school names, sort them making a column for each school under which is would put the names of the student matching a given school then pick the best student from each school column of names. True computers can only do what you TELL (program) them to do, even if that's not what you wanted them to do. As far as the TRI-Wizard's Tournement, it is only TRI because at the moment there are only three school available to compete. At some point in the future Russia, Spain, Italy, or Scandinavia could have a magic school that advances to the ranks of the existing three school. Then it would be invited to join the tournement and it would be the Quad-Wizard's Tournement. The title of the tournement does not necessary define the entire scope and function of the Goblet of Fire. I'm not trying to tell you what IS, but trying to find a likely explanation for what we already know happened. It's pointless to say, 'it can't be that way' because it is that way. What needs to be asked and answered is, 'how can it be that way?'. Just a thought. bboy_mn From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Tue Jun 10 18:01:20 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:01:20 +0000 Subject: Was Re: OOP: The mirror of Erised - Now what Dumbledore's About Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59833 David wrote: And Dumbledore, somewhat >cryptic as always, said "I see myself holding a pair of thick, >woollen socks." which I have associated with his support of Dobby, >the emancipated House Elf, and indeed freedom for other magical >creatures. > Heh! :-) While such symbolism is entirely possible, I've always taken it as the fact that Dumbledore has or has had in his long life all of his heart's desires; he's somewhat like a guru or venerable lama in other venues in that he's come to terms with the world, is serene in what he has and who he is, and what he *really* wants most in the world are socks - remember the remark elsewhere about how he always gets some other kind of gifts but what he really craves are warm, woolly socks? (Don't have my books handy, but I recall the remark.) Dumbledore is an interesting character to me because he does project a lot of what I consider to be the true hallmarks of someone very wise and truly powerful - at ease with himself, able to enjoy and to convey a child-like wonder at things in the world and to be made happy by the passing simple things, like Christmas crackers. While nothing like Dumbledore, I have always tried to keep an aspect of that child-like "gee, wow!" at a new bit of knowledge in my own character - to the amazement and sometimes disapproval of others, who see adulthood and maturity as all about worrying all the time, obsessing over picky things, and rushing about with a scowl on your face. Whatever I may think of Dumbledore's ultimate textual fate - and it does differ from the mainstream in HP fandom - I think he's a *great* character because of this trait alone - and I think that either the director or Richard Harris made a serious mistake in eliminating so much of that in the films and having him more Merlin than Dumbledore so early on in the series. It would have taken just a few seconds at the start of SS for the "few words at the start of the term - flibbertigibbet!..." and so on. And that line does *so much* to establish the character of Dumbledore. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From cssdarrow at hotmail.com Tue Jun 10 15:27:27 2003 From: cssdarrow at hotmail.com (constance_chi_town) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:27:27 -0000 Subject: Arthurian Legand & HP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59834 I re-read the first 4 books of Harry Potter and revisited White's "Once and Future King". I am looking at doing my Thesis on a comparison of the Harry Potter series to the Arthurian Legend. I believe that Harry is similar to Arthur and Dumbledore is his Merlin. I am curious to see if the future books in the series will parallel the Camelot legend plot lines. I find the similarity in the stories very intriguing. Any thoughts? I am new to the group and look forward to discussions on the significance of Harry Potter to other literary works. Connie F/43 From lynn_mdq at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 15:45:17 2003 From: lynn_mdq at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andrea=20Lynn?=) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:45:17 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: best lines in the book? In-Reply-To: <20030610121545.23689.qmail@web21506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030610154517.2105.qmail@web41601.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59835 In Spanish that phrase was translated like in Dutch... "she doesn't like me a lot, does she?".... the meaning changes depending on the translations, that's why i don't read HP in Spanish... Andrea from Argentina --------------------------------- Yahoo! Sorteos Juega a la Loter?a Primitiva sin salir de casa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From brookeshanks at mugglenet.com Tue Jun 10 17:04:36 2003 From: brookeshanks at mugglenet.com (Brooke) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:04:36 -0000 Subject: Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59836 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "newdella" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Sylvester > wrote: > > Ok, I'm not sure if this question - or thought- has been discussed, > although I know quite a lot has been written on the subject of > Draco. Am I the only person that thinks that Draco will turn out to > be a good guy in the end? I have a theory that Lucius will die and > it will be because of his association with the dark arts that he is > killed. I think this event will traumatize Draco and make him > rethink exactly how great dark arts are. Either that or maybe > someone like HRH or any other good character will save Dracos life > causing him to take a different look at his life and the direction it > is taking. I would love to hear any and all opinions on my train of > thought. And if you think it's rediculously stupid please don't send > too many howlers LOL!!!! > > > > > > Beckah > > I think that Draco will never see the "light". I also think that > Lucius will die because of his association with LV. However, I think > that event will impact Draco to make him worse then he is now so that > he could take over for his father. > > Just my 2 knuts. > > Rosebeth Hi Beckah. I have been thinking along the same lines that you are. I think in many ways history will be repeating itself. Draco and Lucius remind me of Crouch and Crouch Jr. I could see the same sort of teenage rebellion happening with Draco. Crouch Senior was not a loving father, and I think that his son joined the dark side in angry rebellion towards his extremist father. I don't think Lucius treats Draco very nicely (besides the fact that Draco gets anything he wants like Dudley, but unlike Dudley - Draco doesn't ever seem to get any postitive reinforcement from his father). I could see Lucius turning really nasty and prompting Draco to rethink his own ideas. I think he's been following in Lucius's footsteps for so long, and sooner or later the teenager in him will come out and he will have his own opinions about things that might be in contrast with his father's. Another resemblence that I see is that Crouch Jr's mother sacrificed herself to get him out of Azkaban. Canon tells us that Narcissa, Draco's mother, did not want him to go to Durmstrang because he would be too far away from her, even though that is what Lucius wanted. I could see a possible analogy there with Narcissa making some sort of sacrifice to save Draco from his increasingly cruel father - which in the end might help Draco to empathize with Harry... wow! sorry I rambled on for so long. Does any of that make sense? Like I said, just a theory I have, among so many others running through my head! Brooke From xhoney666x at hotmail.com Tue Jun 10 17:00:29 2003 From: xhoney666x at hotmail.com (Shealieath Ryanna) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:00:29 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: PoA: Chapter 19 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59837 It's a typo. Maybe occured during translation, though why they would need to translate it from british english to american engilsh so fully as to make typos? My book states clearly 12 in all places. Though mine isn't in English. > > > > > ... Black states Voldy has, "been in hiding for fifteen years." > > > Fifteen? What happened to 12? Why hiding for the extra 3 years? > > > Typo? Anyone? Len(Hi! I'm new) _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From xhoney666x at hotmail.com Tue Jun 10 17:24:54 2003 From: xhoney666x at hotmail.com (Shealieath Ryanna) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:24:54 +0300 Subject: Anger magic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59838 This is just a theory that popped into my head while rereading PoA: chapter 19. If it as already been discussed just tell me so and point me in the right direction. There's just too many messages to check through wether this has popped up yet or not. When Snape is screaming at Hermione in sparks shoot out of his wand. Obviously it's the result of his anger. And also many accidental bursts of magic have occured to Harry when he's been angry. And the connection between Harry and Voldemort also works during Voldemort's angry moments(giving more power to the connection between him and Harry allowing Harry to 'see' things. This might work the other way around too, if Harry ever gets that angry). Also fear is a very powerful factor concerning accidental magic (reference to: Harry, Neville) Elaborating on those two things it could be said that both fear and anger cause great 'ripples' in magic or great changes at least. This brings me to Harry's surviving Avada Kedavra as a baby. Voldemort was very angry at Lily for she did not abide to his commands. Lily was very frightened of him. Harry as a baby who had yet to learn to control his magic somehow picked up on those two feelings and 'reflected' them. When Voldemort cursed Lily she died. But when turnign the curse on Harry things didn't go as expected. Why? Because Lily who had learned to control her magic had supressed her uncontrolled magic triggered by fear and anger. But Harry wasn't trained yet. Thus Harry already being affected by Lily's fear and Voldemort's anger, not to mention at some basic level he should've 'felt' his mother dying contributing more to his fear(and maybe anger). Harry seems as a very powerful wizard(References to Lily being respected, seemingly very powerful for a Muggle-Born. And James being able to become an Animagus at age 15). And untrained Wizards also release their magic when their lives are in danger(Neville). All this added up could just be the reason why the Killing curse didn't kill Harry. Purely accidental magic. Anyone else have any thoughts on this? Len _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 18:31:58 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:31:58 -0000 Subject: James an Auror? and Link to Interview on Clearing Hagrid's Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59839 I, Tom, wrote previously: > After all, Dumbledore confirms in PoA that James likely would have > spared Pettigrew the same way Harry did. So, I interpret this as an > indication of James' character - he *could* have killed, but > probably wouldn't have wanted to. Rosebeth replied: Tom, while I agree with quite a bit of your post I have to disagree with the idea that James wouldn't use the AK on LV. There has been a lot of discussion lately about a mothers love for her child. Why not the same for a father's love? I (Tom) respond: I see where you're coming from. Please, let me clarify, and we'll see if we agree. ;-) I wasn't trying to dispute James' love for Harry and Lily ? I was trying to ponder more specifically whether or not a) James would be willing to kill for them (which I think he would be willing to do,) and b) whether or not that would be his first choice for attack. On the question of (b,) I'm not sure that the first thing James would try to do would be to use an Unforgivable Curse. Rather, I think that, as you kind of suggest in the next part of your reply, that James would be more likely to use an Unforgivable as a matter of last choice, in a gunfight-style situation. On that note, Rosebeth also wrote: It's my belief that James is going to try to whatever he can to save them, and if that means an Unforgivable Curse, then so be it. Like a gunfight in the old west LV was just faster. Tom replies: Yeah, I know what you mean. I have no doubt that in the last resort, his family on the line, James would probably have no issues using an Unforgivable Curse on the Voldemort. I wasn't trying to suggest that James wouldn't *ever* use an Unforgivable in this kind of situation, rather, I was trying to figure out whether or not he'd think to use, say, `Avada Kedavra' right away. In the case of that latter question, `would James use an Unforgivable Curse first,' I think that the answer is `no.' IMHO, like Moody, and his son, I'm thinking that James was probably a man of impeccable character. Such a person probably wouldn't select an Unforgivable Curse as a matter of first choice simply due to the moral nature of their personality. I'm not saying that he'd have reservations using it in a last-ditch effort, but rather that a person of Harry's, and Moody's character (and so, James' character) probably would have naturally selected something less lethal than an Unforgivable. For instance, I can see James trying to `stupefy' Voldemort before killing him outright. -Tom From sam2sar at charter.net Tue Jun 10 18:37:00 2003 From: sam2sar at charter.net (sam2sar) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:37:00 -0000 Subject: What other curse scar? In-Reply-To: <20030610171404.3467.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59840 GoF US version 1rst printing page 706 says "You'll forgive me, Dumbledore, but I've never heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm bell before..." GoF UK version 13th printing page 613 says "You'll forgive me, dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm bell before..." IMHO if the UK version was incorrect it would have been fixed by the 13th printing and Scholastic made the change on there own. Sam I Am From clio44a at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 18:41:45 2003 From: clio44a at yahoo.com (clio44a) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:41:45 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59841 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." wrote: ... > > Now that June 21 is just around the corner (Wow! -- We'll be reading > OoP next weekend!), maybe it's time to get *serious* here. No more > having a whole bunch of vague predictions to your name. Maybe it's > time for a gut-check -- time for anyone who's willing to stand on > just one OoP prediction to step forward. > ... Here's my number one prediction- as professional lurker and rare poster. We will see a Hogwarts without Dumbledore. Permanetely. Dumbledore will either be forced to step down by the Ministry or die (of old age, mind you! NOT from a curse or in a confrontation). Anyways, he will be gone from his position as headmaster, but still be around as an advisor to Harry, either as a ghost or as background character. He will also be able to quietly guide his successor, who will be ... Snape, of course. Snape, who by the beginning of book 5 is back in the good graces of Voldemort, will be supported by some influential DEs in the Ministry, but also by Dumbledore (if he is still around by the time of the choice)and his friends in whatever comittee chooses the Headmaster. A true double agent! Some questionable decisions by the new headmster will give Harry plenty of room to doubt Snape's loyalties and snoop after him. What fun! As for the predicted death: If it's not Dumbledore, who is my candidate of choice, it will be Lupin. And he will be killed (alternative: gravely injured, landing him in a coma in St. Mungos) by Pettigrew, who puts his silver hand to good use, probabely choking Lupin. This will send Harry and Sirius into a guilt trip. Sirius will regret he didn't kill the rat in the shrieking shed, and Harry will be haunted by the knowledge that he prevented Pettigrew's death. He will also start to doubt Dumbledore's philosophy, which will lead to the much awaited all-out conversation he is having with Dumbledore in the end of OoP. I also believe Lupin's pending death/ injury is the reason JKR never allowed him to become attached to Harry. Personally I prefer the Lupin-in-silver-induced-coma-in St.Mungos variant, because it gives us a possibility to see more of Neville and his parents. Ok, that's actually 2 predictions, but I will spare you from my predictions #3-#10, e.g. Charlie becoming Care of Magical Creatures teacher and falling in love with Fleur Delacour. :) Clio, who also predicts that the German translation of the title of book 5 gives away something, since the title for the book (to be published Nov. 8th) is still a big secret. From mommiedragon at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 17:15:19 2003 From: mommiedragon at yahoo.com (Kathy Nava) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trip to Egypt? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030610171519.48857.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59842 Vicky Gwosdz wrote: Hi, Coming back to the expensive or not so expensive trip to Egypt to visit Bill by the Weasleys in the summer before year 3. While rereading CoS (as anyone here in anticipation for book 5) I noticed that the Weasleys also visited Bill during the Chistmas break and even intended to bring at least some of the kids. It says in the book (no exact quote) that "Fred and George decided to stay at Hogwarts for the Christmas break instead of joining their parents in visiting Bill in Egypt". Now, if the trip was that expensive that they could only do it because of the money they won, how did they manage to visit him over Christmas and originally plan to bring the twins as well? I have two possibilties. One is that they had be saving money to visit for awhile. Fred and George decided not to go so they didn't have to pay as much. There is a difference between paying for 6 people and paying for only 3 people. The other is that Bill told his parents that he could help pay for the trip since he had saved up some money. I can't find anything to say how much money Bill has. Kathy --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pjaponica at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 18:17:52 2003 From: pjaponica at yahoo.com (pjaponica) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:17:52 -0000 Subject: Hermione's place In-Reply-To: <000801c32856$6e00a3a0$d75863d9@ola> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59843 Koticzka said: > If Hermione's main feature is the hunger for knowledge, saying that she was > destined to be a Gryffindor because of her bravery denies the bravery of > Ravenclaws. Looking at Hermione's behavior and respect for school rules it > is hard to say she is "more brave than wise and clever", isn't it? So > perhaps it is not her bravery but other features that landed her in > Gryffindor? Or maybe it was the Sorting Hat Emergency Policy (SHEP??? > ;-) )? Pyrus responds: One thing I think you're overlooking is something emphasied over and over in HP: choice. We know that Hermione wanted to be in Gryffindor because she said so to Harry and Ron when she first met them - "I hope I'm in Gryffindor, it sounds by far the best". It's entirely possible that Hermione would have done well in Ravenclaw, just as Harry "would have done well in Slytherin" according to the Sorting Hat in CoS. But even if she didn't ask specifically to be placed in Good 'Ole Gryff, surely the Hat knew where she wanted to be placed. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that a good deal of what the Sorting Hat does has to do with finding out where the student *wants* to be placed. For example, Draco "got his wish" (SS) to get into Slytherin right away. Just a thought. (And yes, I'm a lurker posting for the first time.) PJ From dscire at swfla.rr.com Tue Jun 10 18:38:39 2003 From: dscire at swfla.rr.com (lunrbebe) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:38:39 -0000 Subject: Who is Crockshanks? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59844 Is it just me or do you have the feeling that Crockshanks is an Animagus? Look at the similarities...His name is very close to Wormtail, Padfoot, Prongs and Moony. All cats have a crock in their back legs (shanks), so we could safely assume that his name is in code as well. Another thing that bothers me is JKR always refers to him as orange, red, or ginger, could this be a referance to Lillys side of the family? I don't know if you know any redheads, I do, and what I have found is that it is a very strong gene. If you one redhead in the family your likely to have two. Harry inherited is dads black hair also a dominate gene. We have never found out what happened to Lilly's parents have we? Could crockshanks be his grandpa or long lost uncle? I know that Harry had once refered to his mother as muggle born, but do we know this as fact? Is it possible that Harry's grandparents were wizards and have laid low as a protection for Harry or themselves? Let me know what you think. I have a feeling that Crockshanks is a somebody, I just can't figure out who. D From jodel at aol.com Tue Jun 10 18:52:05 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:52:05 EDT Subject: Single prediction for OotP Message-ID: <140.135f6983.2c1782d5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59845 One single prediction, eh? Okay, I'll bite. I predict that the major overall conflict for Book Five will be between Dunbledore and the Ministry rather than Harry and Voldemort. And that it will take the Dementors' change of alliegance to knock Fudge's policies out of place. If he is still running around with a Dementor guard at that point, this may well put paid to Fudge himself as well. By this time Dumbledore *may* have been forcably removed from his position as Headmaster, in which case he might be reinstated at the end -- or he may be rendered inaccessible to Harry by being drafted to take over as interim Minister of Magic. (This kind of coming-of-age storyline only requires that the mentor figure be unavailable, not that he be dead.) In any case, it will only be after the Dementor disaster that this book's Harry/Voldemort subtext becomes prominent, and will be the big dramatic climax to the book. Oh, yes, and that the reader will not be allowed to continue to take Snape's support of the "good side" for granted. -JOdel From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 18:55:28 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:55:28 -0000 Subject: St. Mungo's and the Longbottoms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59846 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chris" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "blackstripe61" > wrote: I based this on the fact that Neville > > I agree there is more to Neville. I think the memory charm is more > to make him forget *who* he saw. Not sure why though b/c being a > baby he would not have been able to verbalize it, but maybe in the WW > they can extract information from babies another way. Does it say what year the attack on the Longbottoms happend. It was after Voldermorts fall wasn't it? So Neville may have been a toddler or possibly even preschooler. So he would be to talk then. Even my 19 month old daughter can tell how her day went (although somewhat cryptically: Grandma walk houses puppy woof woof flower bunny. Translation: I went on walk with grandma. I saw houses, a dog that was barking, flowers and a bunny.) She also repeats back anything that's said to her (my brother loves to give her big words like photosynthesis, which she promptly repeats back to him). Anyways, Neville might have been old enough that he could have remembered either--a) witnessing his parents tortured or b)Neville knows some knowledge (name, spell, place) that needs to be kept secret. > > I don't think Neville's strength is going to be played out on the > Quidditch field. Remember his strong point is Herbology? Also, he > brings a toad to school as a pet he got from his Great Uncle Algie, > and Moody gives him a book on Magical Water Plants of the > Mediterranean. Just some more food for thought. What do you think? I agree. I think Neville will end up the new herbology professor after Sprout leaves. Serena From lorangell at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 18:17:37 2003 From: lorangell at yahoo.com (lorangell) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:17:37 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59847 > > > > > > > > Trevor... ...is the proud parent... ...of a basilisk. "Lorangell" From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Tue Jun 10 19:00:02 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:00:02 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's money (was Ron, Harry, Molly, Money) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59848 >Felina: >But given the Dursleys' material orientation, perhaps he overheard or >witnessed budgeting and planning there. > >Even given that, I would think the natural temptation would be to >rebel against that. :-) I'm kind of amazed he didn't go on a >spending spree right after he opened the Gringott's vault. > >me: >I have to disagree. I think Harry's got a good enough head on his >shoulders to know this is *all* the money he's got at least until >he's out making his own money. I would imagine he'd have to figure on >being prepared for at least 6 months after he leaves Hogwarts for >some sort of living expenses. I *don't* see him going back to Privet >Drive after he's finally done with Hogwarts. He does splurge here and >there, but remember in PoA how much self control he had when it came >to the Firebolt and buying vs just looking. He probably could have >bought it and had money left over, but he himself (don't have the >exact quote) made it a point that he's got several years of Hogwarts >left. I think he budgets himself and takes out enough money at the >beginning of each summer to cover his Hogwarts expenses (books, etc.) >plus a *little* extra for some spending money. > Oh, I was speaking a *little* tongue in cheek, Sen - and as another poster graciously reminded me, he almost did get a non-pewter cauldron until Hagrid reminded him. And we definitely see that he is tempted by all the wonderful things to buy - but doesn't. Maybe just a sensation that his good luck may not last? You use an interesting and common phrase - "good head on his shoulders". Doubtless. Harry has an amazing amoutn of maturity and self-control, without feeling too beaten down, given his upbringing. It boils down to an interesting philosophical question that underlies how some writers write, and even how some social thinkers think - "nature v. nurture". Which is more important? I tend to favor a 50/50 split myself - but it's kind of interesting to try to figure out which JKR might think is more important, or whether she thinks they're equally important. ("The choices we make" theme is not really relevant to my thought here, since it's an outcome of the balance of these two elemental forces.) Is Harry's parentage and innate wizarding talent and the things the Sorting Hat sees in him more important, or is the way he was raised by the Dursleys more important to the formation of his character? (The latter gave him humility, certainly, a dislike for too much attention, a sense of self-preservation - but none of the mean qualities.) Yes, Harry did calculate that he couldn't splurge on the Firebolt - you're right. I'm just speculating on how he came by the financial knowledge (or is supposed to in canon). My point: if you don't handle money as a child, you don't really understand how it works. Money management and budgeting are *not* instinctive. I'm not a stupid lady by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm not a financial genius, and I've always been way behind the learning curve when it comes to finance and such things because money was pretty much kept from me as a child, along with a discussion of how much things cost - not because my parents wanted to shelter me and see that I had an enchanted childhood as much as that, as my stepfather charmingly told me when I was 17 and discussing college, they'd gotten tired of spending money on kids, and he didn't believe women should go to college and he wasn't going to pay one dime toward my college education - although if I wanted to go to a "finishing school", that would probably be okay. They didn't want me to know how much things cost because they didn't want me to calculate that we *could* afford this or that, they just didn't want me to have it. My mom squirrelled away all of my dad's child support payments in a savings account for college, but since the payments were fixed almost two decades before at a rate that did not kepe up with inflation, there wasn't nearly enough,a nd she had this fantasy that I would live at home with her always and be doled out tuition payments and book money and "still have some left over at the end". Yet I wasn't allowed to get a summer or evening job to make up the difference, because again I was a single girl and shouldn't be out, should be home helping with the housework (and no, I wasn't ever paid for chores or good grades, not even the token quarter - I was still getting a 50 cent a week allowance in high school). I was told when I broached how I might get a used car that "you need to save your pennies - single women shouldn't own cars anyway, but maybe when you're about 35, you'll have enough, because we'll probably be gone by then". No discussion of financing, loans, how mortgages worked...in short, nothing *practical* about investing, things like 401(K)s and such. Sorry for the lengthy personal digression, but I'm just trying to point out: I had *no* idea entering high school of the relationship between type of work and salary, salary and how much things cost, etc. due to that knowledge being deliberately kept from me. I barely figured out stuff like checkign accounts and compound interest from classwork on personal finance before graduating. (I had history and AP English and French down cold, however, and could play the flute and oboe and lettered in band and drama. ;-)) I did go a little crazy, especially when my mom died, with my first two credit cards and some of my inheritance - although give me credit, I used most of it to finish college, including a move to another state to a better history department - just because there was no one there with a forbidding frown to tell me "no". I do wish I'd saved a little more of it, but I got the degree - didn't flunk out or find myself a quarter away and unable to afford tuition and books - but it took learning. Harry is obviously written to be a level-headed common sense kid and we're meant to buy that he comes by this restraint naturally - so I buy it for the purposes of the books. :-) All I'm saying is, it really is not something that comes naturally to most people (I had a better time of it than about 50% of my friends, in the end). Felinia _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 19:03:29 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:03:29 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59849 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lorangell" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trevor... > > > > ...is the proud parent... > > > > ...of a basilisk. > Ok, did you just read the latest chapter in Cassandra Claire's Draco trilogy? Serena From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 19:06:42 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:06:42 -0000 Subject: Secretkeepers and memory charms? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59850 What happens if you cast a memory charm on a secretkeeper? Your thoughts? I can envision a scenario where after what happend w/ James and Lily, Dumbledore once again casts the Fidleus charm and then promptly memory charms the secretkeeper. So what do you think? Serena From rstephens at northwestern.edu Tue Jun 10 19:09:02 2003 From: rstephens at northwestern.edu (rachelbeth007) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:09:02 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59851 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "clio44a" wrote: > Clio, > who also predicts that the German translation of the title of book 5 > gives away something, since the title for the book (to be published > Nov. 8th) is still a big secret. Interesting. Are you implying that the title in German will give us an insight into which definition of "order" the English title uses? I took German in college, but I'm pretty rusty. There are a ton of different definitions for order in both German and English, but here are the two that are what most think the title is referring to: Order: a society or organization: die Ordnung Order: a command or request: der Befehl Clio, I think you're definitely onto something with this theory. There seems to be no reason to keep the German title a secret except for the translation of the word "order" (if that's what you were thinking). Thank goodness it won't matter in a few days! Kudos, Rachel From bak42 at netzero.net Tue Jun 10 19:14:21 2003 From: bak42 at netzero.net (bak42) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:14:21 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] My "one" most rock solid OoP prediction References: Message-ID: <00e301c32f84$838f48e0$90dc3a41@timbecto> No: HPFGUIDX 59852 My prediction is that Fudge will finally come to believe that Voldemort has returned but, it will be right before Voldemort kills him. ---------------------------------------- Brandon -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- GU d- s+:-- a-- C++>$ U? L(-) E? W++ N? o? K? w+ !O M-- V? PS(+) PE Y PGP- t++ 5++ X- R tv++ b+++ DI+++ D+ G e(*) h! !r !z+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 19:20:14 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's money (was Ron, Harry, Molly, Money) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030610192014.52930.qmail@web21201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59853 > Felina wrote: > Even given that, I would think the natural > temptation would be to > rebel against that. :-) I'm kind of amazed he > didn't go on a > spending spree right after he opened the > Gringott's vault. Lynn: I'm not surprised. The first year Hagrid was there and helped Harry to determine how much he would need for a year of school. Hagrid was also there to stop Harry from buying things frivolously. Remember, Harry wanted a solid gold cauldron and Hagrid made him take the pewter one since that's what it said on the school list. Well, we also know the school list didn't mention rats but Ron had one and it wasn't a problem. The second year, Harry was with the Weasleys and that made it a natural barrier. Would he really go crazy when he had Ron and Hermione with him while shopping? It's during the third year that Harry shows his own restraint. He's learning self-control and the realities of life. Before he reached Diagon Alley, he had had some time to think about where he could live, what he could do and just how far the money in his vault would take him. What stopped him from blowing his money was the thought of not having enough to finish school and having to ask the Dursley's for money. Given what happened that summer, that's a powerful incentive. As for the fourth year, we see Mrs. Weasley doing the buying and determining what Harry would need for the year. Harry has had help to curb the natural impulse to blow the whole wad. Now that he's getting older, he's better equipped to handle it as well. Lynn (who wouldn't mind someone showing up and telling her she had a vault of money she didn't know about - RETIREMENT!) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From lorangell at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 19:10:13 2003 From: lorangell at yahoo.com (lorangell) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:10:13 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59854 No, I did not (I'm not much into Draco fic) :-) I saw an OotP sticker that gave me a few ideas. "Lorangell" --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Serena Moonsilver" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lorangell" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trevor... > > > > > > > > ...is the proud parent... > > > > > > > > ...of a basilisk. > > > > > Ok, did you just read the latest chapter in Cassandra Claire's Draco > trilogy? > > Serena From Calimora at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 19:12:07 2003 From: Calimora at yahoo.com (Renee Daniels) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:12:07 -0000 Subject: Arthurian Legand & HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59855 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "constance_chi_town" wrote: > I re-read the first 4 books of Harry Potter and revisited > White's "Once and Future King". I am looking at doing my Thesis on a > comparison of the Harry Potter series to the Arthurian Legend. I > believe that Harry is similar to Arthur and Dumbledore is his > Merlin. I am curious to see if the future books in the series will > parallel the Camelot legend plot lines. I find the similarity in the > stories very intriguing. > > Any thoughts? > > I am new to the group and look forward to discussions on the > significance of Harry Potter to other literary works. > > Connie > F/43 So DD=Merlin, Harry=Arthur, Ron=Lanclot/Bedwyr... But, a lot of the Camelot plot line lies in Destiny. While Harry and Arthur follow the standard Heroic upbringing, Arthur takes his kingdom by 'right.' He is trained from childhood (one might cynicaly say brainwashed) to be the next king. Unlike Merlin, DD takes a hands off approach to Harry's early life and education. And then there is the question of Gweniever (wife/betrayer) and her counterpart Morgan/Morgause (nemisis/sister/lover). Which witch would play which part? At the moment the only major female chars are Hermoine and Ginny. Neither of which would actually fit well in either of those roles. the only one that is remotely possible is that Hermoine marrys Harry and then runs off with Ron. Ginny and Harry have an affair and than she becomes a Death Eater and raises her son to murder his father. Actually. now that I write it, it doesn't seem so impossible, expecially given the JKR's fixation on familial bonds. But at the same time it seems expecially unlikely for GINNY to become a Dark witch. She has already been between a rock and a hard place in PS/SS, and fought against the Dark. I also dont see much possiblity for a grail quest. There isn't (I hope)going to be some great and ultimate magical object that will save the world. There will just be Harry and everybody who stands beside him. I am obviously just hitting on the most obvious, and focusing on soap opera plot peices. Actually, this is hard to do, there are a LOT of congruences between AP and HP, but a lot of them are detail points. Like Evil Prince Mo-something (can't remember the name), who was a powerful war leader befor Arthur came, kidnaps Gweniever to show the other petty kings that he could best Auther in his stronghold. He takes her to the remains of his fortress as bait to get the king out of Camelot. This episode is a lot like Tom Riddle capturing Ginny (there by proving Hogwarts insecure)and luring Harry in to the Chamber of Secrets. But in A legend Lancelot(or equivelent) comes instead of Arthur. In HP, Harry does all of his own rescueing. Yet there are simularities. COnnie, I have a feeling that you have a (several) partucular instances in mind. Would you care to share? Please? ~Calimora (who loves Arthurian legend) p.s. which versions are you using? From marugg at fibertel.com.ar Tue Jun 10 16:09:51 2003 From: marugg at fibertel.com.ar (Marugg) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 13:09:51 -0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] best lines in the book? References: <20030609152040.70343.qmail@web41902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003801c32f6b$4049f260$c006e818@fibertel.com.ar> No: HPFGUIDX 59856 ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert haberfield" To: Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] best lines in the book? > > Hi, I was rereading PoA when I came across this lines which I think are just hilarious: "Setting Dementors around a school" Madam Pomfrey muttered, pushing Harry's hair back and feeling his forehead. " He won't be the first one who collapses. Yes, he's all clammy. Terrible things, they are, and the effect they have on people who are already delicate" "I'm not delicate" said Harry crossly. "Of course you are not", said Madam Promfey absent-mindedly, now taking his pulse. I just love they way Poppy refers to Harry as "already delicate". Cheers, Mariana. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Jun 10 19:37:20 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:37:20 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59857 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rachelbeth007" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "clio44a" wrote: > > Order: a society or organization: die Ordnung > Order: a command or request: der Befehl > I am German and you are mostly right. But the german word for your first definition of order is: der Orden. "Die Ordnung" is the german word for an arrangement or class. I watched "Who wants to be a millionair" a few weeks ago, and there was the question, what will be the german title of the fifth Harry Potter book. And the answer was: "Harry Potter und der Ph?nixorden". So I am a bit surprised to learn that the german title is supposed to be a secret. Hickengruendler From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Tue Jun 10 19:40:53 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:40:53 -0000 Subject: SHIP some OOP from JKR interview In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59858 "innermurk" wrote: I was perusing through the new Floo Network, and was excited to read a much more friendly formatted collection of JKR interviews. In one of them I found the following: "She even hints that one of the long-standing characters will be wiped out in the forthcoming three books. There will also be further romance following on from Harry Potter And The Goblet Of Fire in which he has a date with a quidditch team-mate - and develops more of an interest in pal Hermione. This is the url: http://www.ananova.com/entertainment/story/sm_480162.html Me(Bill) First of all this is old news: 'Story filed: 00:31 Monday 24th December 2001' Secondly, these remarks are from a reporter, who apparently chose to draw conclusions that were not in JKR's statements. It was thouroughly discredited, after the actual interview that this story is based on was released, and it was found that JKR never said most of what the reporter said she did, and especially said nothing about Hermione. Bill From yellows at aol.com Tue Jun 10 19:44:46 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:44:46 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction Message-ID: <17f.1c516fb5.2c178f2e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59859 In a message dated 6/9/2003 9:07:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com writes: > Just one little observation. We sure are a grim, gruesome lot. We've just > about killed off everybody in the story (including Harry at times!) and > usually in a grim, soul-wrentching horrible manner (little somebody having to > watch somebody else get slowly tortured to death, etc). Does ANYBODY have a > happy prediction?? :) We're so morbid. JKR tells us someone's going to eat it and we just can't mask our excitement. But I have a pseudo-happy pair of predictions. Well, not happy. The first one isn't completely bloody, at least. ;) My two predictions are: 1. Krum and Hermione will have a slightly more complicated relationship, and it will parallel the relationship (as I said once before) between the Von Trapp girl and Rolf, the Nazi, from "The Sound of Music." I don't have my Galleons on Krum for the death, though. I see Hermione being unrealistic at first about Krum's true allegiance. Though Krum will sincerely care for Hermione, he won't be able to stop becoming a Death Eater. Ron and Harry will warn Hermione, and she won't believe them at first. She'll think Ron's just jealous and Harry's just sticking up for his heart-broken friend. By the end of the book, Hermione'll have to accept that Krum's on the wrong side of the fight and their relationship will end. 2. Oh. And I predict that Percy Weasley dies. :) Or Hagrid. But I'll place my Galleons on Percy, because Hagrid ought not to have *too* many of us voting against him. :) There, now. :) I've joined the morbid masses. Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rpquate at earthlink.net Tue Jun 10 19:50:24 2003 From: rpquate at earthlink.net (redandgoldlion) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:50:24 -0000 Subject: Constellations and Harry Potter In-Reply-To: <9.12e5269a.2c1664c2@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59860 In response to my last post, Brief Chronicles wrote: >... I find this extremely interesting, and, I think, quite probably related to > the series. Would you be willing to post more of your findings? :) >... Wow, someone actually found one of my posts intesting? A historic moment. ;) Here's the rest of the information you requested, plus a few other things I've looked up since yesterday. The next thing, I noticed, in the same book, was from a passage about the constellation of Leo, specifically it's most important star (at least to those of many years ago), *Regulus/Rex*. It was thought by early English astrologers that people born under its influence were fated to have wealth, glory, and power; it was sometimes called the "Royal Starre." We all know that Harry is a Leo, but how could these three traits relate to him. While he most certainly has money, he doesn't seem to be as wealthy as say, the Malfoys. I think most of us are relatively sure he's already achieved the glory aspect. But what about power. We know he could beat Hermione in a duel, at least now, because JKR told us so in an interview. He also managed an extremely powerful Patronus *and* lived after various encounters with the Dark Lord (even if he did have help). But how powerful is he? I can't really say. Maybe his power, or future power, or something is why Voldemort wanted to kill him to begin with? Also, Regulus was believed to rule all other stars and keep them in their proper places in the night sky. Could this perhaps symbolize the way Harry sometimes keeps people going (like filling in the gap between Ron and Hermione's opposite natures)? Well, that's all I found on that. Let's move on, shall we? The next thing I noticed was in the story about Pegasus. Bellerophon was given the task of conquering a *Chimaera,* a monster with the ability to breathe fire; had the tail of a snake/dragon, the body of a goat, and a lion's head (in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, in hopes that he would be killed in the task. Bellerophon prayed at the temple of *Minerva.* Once finished praying he turned and found a golden bridle, obviously a gift from the goddess. He soon found Pegasus grazing nearby, and, after putting the bridle on him, took to the air. With Pegasus acting much as Fawkes did in the CoS, Bellerophon was able to defeat the fire-breathing monster. Now I'm not exactly sure how this relates to the Potterverse. "Chimaera" is what first make me think of any connections between this story and the Potter books. I thought the Chimaera was particularly interesting, mostly because it was part lion and part snake/dragon. Maybe the monster could represent a union between Gryffindor and Slytherin (don't know what the goat could mean)who turns out to be evil and is later defeated by a third party with the help of Minerva? I know it's extremely doubtful, but as I said yesterday, this is the information that I didn't deem worthy for my first post. :) Just one more to go. This one deals with Pisces, and how this constellation appeared in the heavens. Supposedly, Venus and Cupid turned themselves into fish to escape the firey breath of Typhon (a dragon-like monster with 100 heads)because the fire couldn't penetrate the deep water of a river. So they didn't loose each other in the water, Venus and Cupid connected themselves with a long string. Later, there was a revolt of dragons and giants against Jupiter, which was led by Typhon (who was the only survivor). I thought that this could perhaps foretell that the giants once again siding with the "dragons", whom I loosely classify as Draco and company, in the coming war. Later Brief Chronicles wrote: > I especially like the Draco/Minerva story. I've always felt that she's a > great character who is waiting to show us more. Perhaps that will come when (or > 'if,' for those of you who disagree with this plot point) Dumbledore passes on > and she takes his position. Or perhaps it will come when the Malfoys show their > continued allegiance to Voldemort and Draco becomes more of just an annoying > brat in class. > > By the way, what do we think will happen to Draco by the end of the series? I > don't see him dying. I imagine he will live (though his father may not), to > give us the impression that Harry will have to fight evil even after graduating > from Hogwarts. > > Any thoughts? Anything in the stars? ;) > > Brief Chronicles > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] I'm glad someone besides me thinks there is more to Minerva than meets the eye, and I hope we find out more about her soon! As far as Draco goes, others have already replied about that, so I'll refrain from giving my opinion until I've read the other posts, as to not repeat alreay run-in-the-ground plot points. ;-) ~redandgoldlion~ From clio44a at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 19:53:40 2003 From: clio44a at yahoo.com (clio44a) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:53:40 -0000 Subject: OoP German title In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59861 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rachelbeth007" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "clio44a" wrote: > > Clio, > > who also predicts that the German translation of the title of book 5 > > gives away something, since the title for the book (to be published > > Nov. 8th) is still a big secret. > > Interesting. Are you implying that the title in German will give us an insight > into which definition of "order" the English title uses? ... > Clio, I think you're definitely onto something with this theory. There seems to > be no reason to keep the German title a secret except for the translation of the > word "order" (if that's what you were thinking > Kudos, > Rachel Actually I'm not the first one who had the idea of looking into other language titles to find a clue to the meaning of 'order'. There was a thread about this last week I think. I just wanted to point out that unlike obviously in other countries the German title as well as the cover art is not known yet. Carlsen publishers as well as Amazon.de refer to the book as volume 5. Either they simply don't know the content yet or they think the title translation gives away to much. Maybe they are just lazy, who knows. Clio, who will be a bit disappointed if the German translation of order will will be plain old 'Orden' as in medal and group. From kkearney at students.miami.edu Tue Jun 10 19:53:44 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:53:44 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59862 Cindy proposed: > Now that June 21 is just around the corner (Wow! -- We'll be reading > OoP next weekend!), maybe it's time to get *serious* here. No more > having a whole bunch of vague predictions to your name. Maybe it's > time for a gut-check -- time for anyone who's willing to stand on > just one OoP prediction to step forward. Cindy, are you keeping track of these? It'll be very entertaining to see who was right, wrong, and still unanswered after OoP is out. I hope I don't repeat someone else's prediction; I stopped reading the predictions after a few people slipped spoilers into theirs. My one, not-very-risky prediction: Arthur Weasley will, under Dumbledore's directions, begin organizing ministry members to actively fight Voldemort, against Fudge's orders. This will prove to be his first major role in the fight against Voldemort, having played only a minor role, if any, in the previous Voldemort war (anti-Auror Arthur, in other words). -Corinth From gromm at cards.lanck.net Tue Jun 10 18:41:21 2003 From: gromm at cards.lanck.net (Maria Gromova) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:41:21 +0400 Subject: ??: [HPforGrownups] Sirius Black at Godrics Hollow References: Message-ID: <035901c32f8b$16ee9540$0542983e@rcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 59863 Karen wrote: > POA UK P153 Hagrid states that he was the one to rescue Harry from > the ruins of the Potter family home (this we already knew from > PS/SS), but what I don't understand is - How could Sirius Black have > turned up 'just' after Voldemoarts attack if he, SB, wasn't the > POtters secret keeper. > > It wouldn't make sense to have someone as the secret keeper, if every > one of their other friends knew where to find them! Would it?? Hi, Karen, and welcome to the group. You are right, it wouldn't. And for the while the Fidelius Charm worked, I think even Sirius sort of forgot temporally where they lived. But when Pettigrew revealed the secret to Voldemort, the charm ceased to work, and everyone instantly knew where the Potters lived. Sirius knew, too, and that only could mean that the worst happened, so he hastened to Godric's Hollow. Alas, he was too late... Hope hat helps, Maria From yellows at aol.com Tue Jun 10 20:08:02 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:08:02 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco Message-ID: <140.136002d5.2c1794a2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59864 In a message dated 6/10/2003 8:26:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, Amanda writes: > I have a difficult time seeing Draco as 'redeemed' in the future > because of some sudden moral development ("Oh! How thoughtless of me! > Evil's not the way to go at all; it HURTS people!"), likely because > he's far too self-involved. So I suppose I'm of the opinion that > Draco just might prove to be more loyal to the side of 'good,' but > only because he knows Voldemort and his followers will likely be > defeated. I can't imagine that Draco will turn good. I see him carrying on the forces of evil because, frankly, there is always evil in the world. If Harry finishes off Voldemort and the Death Eaters by the end of the series, then that will give the symbolic impression that evil has been conquered. But we need Harry Potter in the world, just like we need Batman or Superman. Even when the series has ended, we need to know why there's still evil in real life, and that there's someone to battle it. That's why, IMO, Harry will not die and Draco will not turn from the dark side. In fact, I believe Draco will take over where his dad left off (when his dad eventually dies -- in the series), and he'll have hinted aspirations at becoming the next Voldemort. Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From innermurk at catlover.com Tue Jun 10 20:13:19 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:13:19 -0000 Subject: SHIP some OOP from JKR interview In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59865 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" wrote: >(Bill) > > First of all this is old news: > > 'Story filed: 00:31 Monday 24th December 2001' > > Secondly, these remarks are from a reporter, who apparently chose to > draw conclusions that were not in JKR's statements. It was > thouroughly discredited, after the actual interview that this story > is based on was released, and it was found that JKR never said most > of what the reporter said she did, and especially said nothing about > Hermione. > Ok Bill, I never said it was new. And can you provide the interview link that debunked it please? Innermurk From RhianynTheCat at aol.com Tue Jun 10 19:51:31 2003 From: RhianynTheCat at aol.com (RhianynTheCat at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:51:31 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's money (was Ron, Harry, Molly, Money) Message-ID: <1a1.1613ad72.2c1790c3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59866 In a message dated 6/10/2003 12:03:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jestahijinx at hotmail.com writes: > All > I'm saying is, it [speaking of financial planning] really is not something > that comes naturally to most > people > Rhianyn rouses from her firesde contemplation to postulate: Well, no, but then a lot of things don't. Most things even. Despite what we may be taught as kitlings, our own talents and interests make us gravitate toward our own unique "knacks". My own mother is a fantastic domestic engineer with a home that is always immaculate. And she did try to teach me as did my aunts with similar qualities. But I always wanted to be doing outside things. So now, when faced with major housecleaning traumas I find myself wondering about very basic things like 'do I clean the tub and toilet first as I hate doing those, then move on to the floor?' and have to reason my way thru the idea that I'm likely to dirty the floor doing the tub and toilet and will have to do the floor twice if I do it first. But give me any plant to grow or about any animal of any species to train and I excel. And just to bring it back to mathematical matters I eventually realized that I get X amount of dollars for an hour spent training critters and it costs Y amount of dollars per hour to pay someone to clean the house and that X is substantially greater than Y so I was actually losing money by doing it myself. Of course you must keep in mind that I as close as failed math in school as one could get. So either I slipped into creative thinking (which I fondly believe is another of my strong points) or I was driven by need to come up with a plausibly sound (to me anyway ;P) mathmatical theory. Either way, my natural tendencies or need transcended my education. I think given common sense which Harry mostly has, (with some glaring exceptions) one can muddle thru the day to day mundanities of life. However great intelligence and common sense don't necessarily go hand in hand which, I think, is where you get very bright people who squander away lifes resources. One thing I've always found attractive in Hermione is that she is very bright, with a good deal of common sense as well. I tend to think about Ron that he has the "goods" mentally but maybe not the common sense and given that 1000 pounds that Harry gave the twins, Ron would squander it. Gred and Forge, on the other hand, are far more likely to parlay it into more money. Same basic nurturing, different outcome. Nature over nurture :) Sadly, I seem to have been very rough on Ron lately, but I really _do_ like him :::Curls fluffy black tail about herself just _so_ and returns to napping by the fire:::: ^ ^ =( * .*)= [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From RhianynTheCat at aol.com Tue Jun 10 19:59:10 2003 From: RhianynTheCat at aol.com (RhianynTheCat at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:59:10 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Arthurian Legand & HP Message-ID: <1a6.15e50df2.2c17928e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59867 In a message dated 6/10/2003 12:33:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Calimora at yahoo.com writes: > And then there is the question of Gweniever (wife/betrayer) and her > counterpart Morgan/Morgause (nemisis/sister/lover). Which witch would > play which part? Rhianyn's emerald eyes narrow as she speculates: Well, now, if we plugged Lily into the Gwenhyfar role opposite, say Narcissa Malfoy wouldn't that set the cat amongst the canarys? Lily, of course, is a hinge upon much, if not all turns and as yet we can only speculate about her. But I've wondered since the World Quidditch Cup why we even meet Narcissa if she's not going to come into some prominences later. There really aren't many characters that we "meet" rather than just see in passing that don't come back in more prominence at a later date. JKR is amazingly thrifty that way and to me it adds much to the fun of watching things unfold. :::Curls fluffy black tail about herself just _so_ and returns to napping by the fire:::: ^ ^ =( * .*)= [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dileas at rogers.com Tue Jun 10 20:03:22 2003 From: dileas at rogers.com (mmgardin) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:03:22 -0000 Subject: Secretkeepers and memory charms? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59868 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Serena Moonsilver" wrote: > What happens if you cast a memory charm on a secretkeeper? > > > Your thoughts? > > > I can envision a scenario where after what happend w/ James and Lily, > Dumbledore once again casts the Fidleus charm and then promptly > memory charms the secretkeeper. So what do you think? > > Serena I think that it would take an extremely powerful memory charm to wipe out a memory of having had the fidelius charm performed. Unfortunately, I don't really have any specific canon to back this up - but memory charms have been implicated in altering the integrity of memory charm recipient's memories (Bertha and the muggles at the QWC come to mind). My pet theory (which I will post under the predicition thread) concerns this very possibility (someone receiving the Fidelius charm followed by a memory charm). Cheers, Marcia From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Tue Jun 10 20:22:50 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:22:50 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] An addendum to my previous post: who we'll likely *not* hear again References: <002201c32f0c$3a402060$15d0df80@hppav> Message-ID: <005901c32f8e$115f8500$ea0b6750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 59869 Aesha wrote: > Here's a list of people who I think we're not going to hear from again, taken from the previous list I posted. > > 1. Archie (though he'd be great for comic relief, escpecially during these frightening times in the Wizarding world!) > 2. Basil > 3. Barty Crouch, Sr. > 4. Barty Crouch, Jr. > 5. Cedric Diggory > 6. Marcus Flint > 7. Professor Grubbly-Plank > 8. Bertha Jorkins > 9. Igor Karkaroff > 10. Kevin > 11. Kevin's mom > 12. Gilderoy Lockheart > 13. Mr. Oblansk (Bulgarian MOM) > 14. Madam Malkin > 15. Ernie Prang > 16. Professor Quirrell > 17. Tom Riddle (I don't count him as the same as Lord Voldemort, who, incidentally, I left of my previous list) > 18. Stan Shunpike (I think two books was about it for him) > 19. Vi > 20. The witch who, when Crouch accused HRH of summoning the Dark Mark, reminded him that they are only children > 21. Piers Polkiss > 22. Aunt Marge > 23. The Riddles' maid > 24. The woman at the bar in Little Hangleton > 25. The Riddles' cook > 26. Man at the bar in Little Hangleton > 27. Landlord of the bar in Little Hangleton > 28. Excited woman in the corner who was speaking with Dot > 29. Dot > 30. Frank Bryce > 31. Aragog > 32. The old man with Macnair who comes to dispose of Buckbeak > 33. The goblin who sings Harry's val-0-gram > 34. Armando Dippet > 35. The spider who led Ron and Harry to Aragog > 36. The ghost who walked through Nick's Deathday party food > 37. Sir Patrick de Mimsy-Porpington > 38. The Basilisk > 39. The witch who speaks to Harry in Knockturn Alley > 40. The photographer taking pictures of Lockhart for the Daily Prophet > Me (Izaskun) Well, I'm adding Oliver Wood. I don't think he'll be around in book 5. Cheers, Izaskun > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Tue Jun 10 20:30:39 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:30:39 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59870 Hi all: Okay: I've kind of resisted being drawn into this, simply because I *don't* think I can predict what JKR is going to do, or at least how she is going to accomplish it; but I simply can't help myself. Here's my prediction, which does include some vague parts: Fudge is going to turn out to be a baddie, but through ineptitude and blindness, not any real deep-seated evil. (Sort of like the appease hitler crew in Britain in WWII.) Because of his current position, he's going to make some very bad decisions, incluiding at least one major one that will have widespread impact, and cause a very open breach between Hogwarts and the MoM (among others). Because that kind of character and that sort of misguidedness is too tough to sustain through three more books as the sole cause de guerre, I think that Fudge is going to buy it near the end of Book V - and that because of other circumstances that have been set up all along, the new Minister of Magic will be...Lucius Malfoy. He will get in because of pragmatic circumstances - people thinking they're choosing the best of two bad choices, even - and possibly because of scare tactics to the Ministry and whatever of the WW he needs to influence. I think this will happen just about right at the end of Book V and set up at least part of the cliffhanger ending for Book VI. I think that Dumbledore will either just barely manage to skate by remaining in place at Hogwarts, or else stay in open defiance (figuring that this is war and it's no time to observe the formalities of the rules as he'd usually do to set a good example for the kids - that their safety is more important [which is one of my big arguments against those who get so upset at the Trio for breaking rules - sometimes rules *are* stupid and following them would cause harm - the trick is learning to use the necessary judgment to determine when that is, and young people are oftne a little uneven in that - sorry, it's my Alaskan upbringing speaking out here - but what would have happened in the books in each case if they *didn't* break some of the rules?] of a Malfoy order; or appear to retire from the scene, but use the opportunity to set up a sort of "shadow government in exile" leaving McGonagall as headmistress who will appear to go along but actually make it possible for Dumbledore to continue to act and to keep the kids safe, because she's basically aligned the same as Dumbledore, but stricter. And that was just about the world's longest run-on sentence! :-) Malfoy being MoM will then clear certain avenues for Voldemort's followers to entrench themselves subtly in the WW - and may create another crisis for the Weasleys if Arthur loses his job. But I think that, between all the now wage-earning adult Weasley boys, they may make it possible for Arthur to retire if he wishes, tinker with his beloved Muggle equipment and wizarding inventions, and travel. I think F&G's joke shop will turn into an enormous success - Percy will have an employment crisis between wanting to succeed and knowing in his heart that his family brought him up right - and Bill will get transferred back home on a promotion and help out a little with the occasional "take the folks out for a night in Diagon Alley" sorts of things with the family. Okay, getting a little "featherboa" towards the end - but the major prediction is that Fudge is going to get cleared away because he really is the epitome of the pompous, fussy little bureaucrat with no real original ideas in his brain and no real principles, just rulebooks; and that Malfoy will cease to be a nuisance and become a real threat. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 20:32:37 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:32:37 -0000 Subject: Names in goblet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59871 JDR writes: This is something that really bothers me, and I have the sinking feeling that it is merely a plot hole; namely, how dumb does a magic object have to be to be fooled into thinking there could be a *fourth" entrant in a *tri*-wizard tournament? Steve (bboy_mn) reasoned: I don't see it as that hard. While the Goblet does have some intelligence, there is nothing to suggest that any magical object, the Sorting Hat, the 'living' paintings, the Goblet, whatever, has the full congnitive, analytical, rational, reasoning thought processes of a human being. The Goblet's job, for purposes of illustration, is to pick the most able and qualified champion from among the list of candidates from EACH school whether it is 3 schools or 10 schools. I think picking the champion from the candidates is where most of the Goblet intelligence lies, not in evealuating the proper number of schools. Sherrie appended: And "Moody" DOES say that it took "a really strong Confundus Charm..." I, Tom, add: I think that Steve is on the money here, although I'd like to refine a little bit. The way I see it, the Goblet of Fire is not necessarily 'intelligent,' in that it (paraphrasing Steve here) has the ability to "congnitively analyze or reason." IMHO, the Goblet doesn't know anything about the word-deconstruction of 'Tri-wizard' - it simply is magically enchanted to select a certain number of names from the submissions. IMHO, it is like a computer program. This, of course, contrasts with the Sorting Hat, which does express opinions and has a demonstrated ability to use language and think on its own. I believe that it has more intelligence than the Goblet of Fire, because the Sorting Hat writes a new song every year, and therefore possesses, to some degree, the ability to understand language, definitions, rhyme and meter, as well as to assess personalities and to compare those personalities with the specific requirements of the four Hogwarts founders. The Sorting Hat, it would seem to me, is far more intelligent than the Goblet of Fire. The canon doesn't imply that the Goblet is necessarily intelligent at all, indeed, what it suggests to me is that the Goblet simply serves as a magical and impartial barometer of pure magical talent and ability. In GoF, Ch.16, 255 (US,) Dumbledore calls the Goblet 'impartial.' In GoF, Ch.17, 279 (US,) Moody refers to it as ' very powerful magical object!' He then goes on to say that 'It would have needed an exceptionally strong Confundus Charm to bamboozle that object into forgetting that only three schools compete in the tournament.' So, what we have here isn't necessarily an object that sits down and reasons out, per se, the best way to handle the TWT applications. I look at it sort of as a 'programmed' object: it knows that there are three schools, and that it has to select one submission from each, and presumably has a particular set of criteria for selecting that, I'm hoping, involves magical talent. The use of the Confundus Charm, therefore, would probably make the Goblet 'forget' some of its original programming... not necessarily reprogram it entirely. For instance, although he doesn't go into it (and to draw a distinction that may or may not be relevant,) I don't think that Crouch altered the restrictions to 'four schools' from 'three,' rather that he eliminated the restriction of 'three' with the Confundus Charm. So, in theory, perhaps more students could have been submitted under other schools' names. Sherrie wrote: Perhaps those who started the tournament allowed for that in the original spell - realizing that the WW would grow, & new schools might be worthy of competing in the future? On that subject, Steve posited: At some point in the future Russia, Spain, Italy, or Scandinavia could have a magic school that advances to the ranks of the existing three school. I, Tom, add: I interpret the three schools in the TWT as sort-of akin to the Ivy League in the U.S. Of course, there are many schools of (or even, above) Ivy-League-level, academically speaking. But the league is more than that - it also has a distinction of history, and it's own particular (restricted) competition circuit for sports. And we also know that there will be no new additions to the Ivy League, no matter how many more MITs and Stanfords arise. So, my take is that even if there are new prestigious schools in the European WW in the future (and we've no indication that there aren't now or won't be later) I'm not sure that the time-honored, seven- hundred-year-old tradition of the TWT would be altered to accomodate any upstart institutions. And of course, we have not been told that these three schools are the *only* European magic schools, simply that the competition was established between "the three largest Eurpoean schools of wizardry." GoF, Ch.12, 187 (US) This, of course, suggests that there are other schools, but that they're not considered prestigious or significant enough to compete in the TWT. Oh, and on the prospect of altering the Goblet's 'programming' to accomodate additional schools permanently, I'm not sure if that would work or not - after all, they didn't alter the Goblet as far as restricting ages... Dumbledore had to do that manually with his 'Age Line.' If there *had* been an easy way to restrict age through the Goblet, then fourth school or not, Crouch!Moody wouldn't have been able to submit Harry - he would have simply been rejected, unless of course, Crouch had slipped Harry some Aging Potion with his pumpkin juice. -Tom From ecprincess78 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 20:36:40 2003 From: ecprincess78 at yahoo.com (Leah Jamison) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:36:40 -0000 Subject: OoP SPOILER: Number of New Characters In-Reply-To: <11f.228ed219.2c165609@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59872 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: cindysphynx at c... writes: >> Hmmm. That's nine new voices. I wonder who they might be . . . Sherry >>Ten, at least, since one we heard in GoF has been silenced (Cedric's). We may also lose Krum, Fleur, Mme. Maxime... I, Leah contend: How can we be so sure we've lost Cedric's voice forever? This _is_ the WW after all...We could have him later as a ghost, or a memory...the possibilities are endless in the Potterverse!! Happy reading! (10 days...) From hollydaze at btinternet.com Tue Jun 10 20:42:20 2003 From: hollydaze at btinternet.com (Hollydaze) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:42:20 +0100 Subject: best lines in the book? References: <20030610160752.63628.qmail@web41603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006b01c32f90$d177eec0$223b8351@j0dhe> No: HPFGUIDX 59873 It's not my absolute favourite but I do really like this: UK PoA Hardback Pg 95 - 96. A few cauldrons away, Neville was in trouble. Neville regularly went to pieces in Potions lessons; it was his worst subject and his great fear of Professor Snape made things ten times worse. His potion, which was supposed to be bright, acid green had turned - "Orange, Longbottom," Part of the reason I like this so much is because it is spread over the two pages, the "Orange Longbottom" being on page 96. It just kinda adds to the feeling of "oh dear, what's he done this time?" I had this real feeling of dread the first time I read that and then just burst out laughing (I know I'm cruel!) HOLLYDAZE!!! "No one's going to try and kill you until we've sorted a few things out," said Lupin. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dileas at rogers.com Tue Jun 10 20:17:48 2003 From: dileas at rogers.com (mmgardin) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:17:48 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59874 Hi everyone, Ok here's my *One* OOP prediction that I stand firmly on. The short version of my prediction is that we find out more about Neville's parents. The long version (I hope this only counts as one prediction) is as follows: We find out that Neville's parents were given the dememtor's kiss. Shortly before they were soul sucked though, they told Neville some really important secret (probably a secret the DE's wanted kept secret but Neville's parents knew) with the Fidelius charm and wiped out his memory with powerful memory charms. I also think that Snape, during a potions class, will teach a potion that erases/detects memory charms and in that class, Neville will have to test his potion on himself. Cheers, Marcia From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Tue Jun 10 20:46:07 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:46:07 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What other curse scar? References: Message-ID: <00f201c32f91$51f01dc0$ea0b6750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 59875 Sam wrote: > > GoF UK version 13th printing page 613 says "You'll forgive me, > dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm bell > before..." > > IMHO if the UK version was incorrect it would have been fixed by the > 13th printing and Scholastic made the change on there own. > Me (izaskun) Well, it's funny. I have the first edition hardcover Uk, and it certainly says "I've heard", no "never around". That's not so strange if we think it is the first edition, the one in which Lilly Potter comes out from VOldemort's wand before James Potter and all that. But I also have the paperback edition. Version 20th, and it contains the same mistake. Weird. One'd think they'd have had plenty of time to check the book and fix all the previous mistakes. Hardback is usually released later. Cheers, Izaskun From RonWeasley_is at msn.com Tue Jun 10 20:41:31 2003 From: RonWeasley_is at msn.com (ron_wizardchess_weasley) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:41:31 -0000 Subject: PoA: Chapter 19 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59876 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chuck" wrote: > Curiosities: > > When Snape gets knocked out, he bleeds. Not likely if he's a vampire. > > When asking why Peter/Scabbers didn't kill Harry after three yearas > in the same dorm, Black states Voldy has, "been in hiding for fifteen > years." Fifteen? What happened to 12? Why hiding for the extra 3 > years? Typo? Anyone? > > Bueller? > > Chuck *****It has been about fifteen years you-know-who had been in hiding.- Harry was 11 when he started going to Hogwarts and this took place in his 3rd year of school. 11 + 3 = 14 (it was probably closer to 15 years and Black rounded the time up.) Does this sound right?***** Ron_WizardChess_Weasley From brookeshanks at mugglenet.com Tue Jun 10 20:50:39 2003 From: brookeshanks at mugglenet.com (Brooke) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:50:39 -0000 Subject: best lines in the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59877 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "chesterr" wrote: > Hi > I'm writing a piece for The Courier-Mail (daily newspaper in > Brisbane, Australia) looking at the best sentences in the Harry > Potter series. I have my own favourites (there's a line, and i'm > quoting from memory because i don't have my book in front of me, in > the first book in which Hagrid mentions he borrows the motorbike from > Sirius Black - a reference you read over at first and only realise > the significance in latter books) but am after nominations from > fellow HP fans. > cheers > Rod Chester > The Courier-Mail > chesterr at q... > chesterr at y... Hi! Rather than risk being redundant or sending you tons and tons of quotes (because there are SO many great ones!) I would like to suggest that (IN GENERAL) just about every joke that Ron makes is hilarious IMHO, and Dumbledore's quotes seem to be incomparable. But to give you a start, one of my favorite quotes in the book is not something that is said by a character - it is the Hogwarts motto (that is in Latin, but I don't have it in front of me). In English, it translates "Never Tickle a Sleeping Dragon" Seems pretty sensible to me! Just my two knuts... Brooke From karen.lyall at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Jun 10 20:45:35 2003 From: karen.lyall at blueyonder.co.uk (karenlyall666) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:45:35 -0000 Subject: An addendum to my previous post: who we'll likely *not* hear again In-Reply-To: <005901c32f8e$115f8500$ea0b6750@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59878 Aesha wrote: Here's a list of people who I think we're not going to hear from again, taken from the previous list I posted. rest of list cut 37. Sir Patrick de Mimsy-Porpington Can someone please tell me who this is and where they appear.... As I dont remember hearing about any of Nearly Headless Nicks relatives. Thanks karenlyall666 From brookeshanks at mugglenet.com Tue Jun 10 20:37:39 2003 From: brookeshanks at mugglenet.com (Brooke) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:37:39 -0000 Subject: Who is Crockshanks? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59879 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lunrbebe" wrote: > Is it just me or do you have the feeling that Crockshanks is an > Animagus? Look at the similarities...His name is very close to > Wormtail, Padfoot, Prongs and Moony. All cats have a crock in their > back legs (shanks), so we could safely assume that his name is in code > as well. > > Another thing that bothers me is JKR always refers to him as orange, > red, or ginger, could this be a referance to Lillys side of the > family? I don't know if you know any redheads, I do, and what I have > found is that it is a very strong gene. If you one redhead in the > family your likely to have two. Harry inherited is dads black hair > also a dominate gene. We have never found out what happened to Lilly's > parents have we? Could crockshanks be his grandpa or long lost uncle? > > I know that Harry had once refered to his mother as muggle born, but > do we know this as fact? Is it possible that Harry's grandparents were > wizards and have laid low as a protection for Harry or themselves? > > Let me know what you think. I have a feeling that Crockshanks is a > somebody, I just can't figure out who. > > D Hey. I think Crookshanks might be an animagus too. But if he his, I don't think we've been introduced to that character yet (in his human form, that is). At first I thought Crookshanks might be related to the Weasleys. Remember how JKR had written in a distant relative of the Weasleys when she first started writing book four? Then she said she had to take that character out because her presence blew the plot. Maybe Crookshanks is that distant relative? Which would also furthur explain why Crookshanks was trying to get at Wormtail. But then I realized that the only problem with this theory is that Crookshanks is a male, and the Weasley relative had been a female. Now my theory is that Crookshanks is definitely part kneazle (*see HP Lexicon online if you don't know what that is,) and that he once belonged to Mrs. Figg. I think someone planted Crookshanks in that store so that maybe Ron, Harry, or Hermione would by him. I know it's a stretch, but I really have this feeling that Crookshanks is suppose to be there to look after the trio - sort of like an animal form of sneakoscope. Just my two knuts! Brooke From guardianapcelt at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 21:30:08 2003 From: guardianapcelt at yahoo.com (guardianapcelt) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:30:08 -0000 Subject: Azkaban, Dementors, and the Prison system Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59880 Everyone here knows that Azkaban is Wizard prison...but with wizards in every country in the world, does it make sense for it to be the *only* wizard prison? Is Azkaban just for criminals in the same range that Hogwarts has (England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales), or does it extend further to include Western Europe? Furtheremore, are dementors used universally as Enforcers in Wizarding prisons? If not, what methods are used to keep the prisoners in, and how reliable are they? Thoughts? Opinions? Comments? Rotton fruit? I'd welcome all, this has been plauging my mind all day. - Joe S. From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Tue Jun 10 21:30:38 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:30:38 EDT Subject: Armando Dippet Message-ID: <1ed.ab3e097.2c17a7fe@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59881 In a message dated 6/10/03 3:27:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, awillia2 at gladstone.uoregon.edu writes: > 34. Armando Dippet I don't know about this one...I could see us hearing from him again. I don't know why, but I feel like there's more to this guy than the miniscule bit we know. Why didn't Dumbledore tell Dippet that Riddle was suspicious? Did he think no one would believe him? Shouldn't Dippet have investigated? Was he blind to the truth? I think Hagrid would know what creature he had, and any idiot with a copy of Fantasic Beasts and Where To Find Them could tell you that an Acromantula can't do that. Why didn't Dippet ask Moaning Myrtle how she died? I know she was following Olive Hornby, but Olive should still be in Hogwarts. If Dumbledore knew the Chamber had been opened, how did Dippet not? I feel a flashback a la Riddle's Diary or the Penseive coming on...but different somehow. I don't trust Dippet. Either that, or I'm going crazy searching for something to tide me over until OoP! ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ --Hehehe...Hundred Years Of Scary Dudes....lol [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gerson at voicenet.com Tue Jun 10 20:58:58 2003 From: gerson at voicenet.com (jabig33) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:58:58 -0000 Subject: Snapes assignment Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59882 So we have all been wondering about where Snape goes at the end of GoF. Well, here is a new idea (I hope). Snape uses polyjuice potion to pretend to be Barty Crouch Jr. for Voldemort, who dosen't know that Barty had been kissed. By being Voldemort's loyal servant, Snape can find out anything he wants to about Voldemort's plans. OF course, this theory kinda falls apart if Fudge is a Death Eater and told Voldemort about Barty's kiss. Oh well. Abby, popping out of lurkdom to throw an idea out there while waiting for OoP. From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 21:39:59 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:39:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What other curse scar? In-Reply-To: <00f201c32f91$51f01dc0$ea0b6750@takun> Message-ID: <20030610213959.55404.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59883 --- fridwulfa wrote: > > Sam wrote: > > > > GoF UK version 13th printing page 613 says > "You'll forgive me, > > dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse scar > acting as an alarm bell > > before..." > > > > IMHO if the UK version was incorrect it would > have been fixed by the > > 13th printing and Scholastic made the change > on there own. > > > > Me (izaskun) > Well, it's funny. I have the first edition > hardcover Uk, and it certainly > says "I've heard", no "never around". That's > not so strange if we think it > is the first edition, the one in which Lilly > Potter comes out from > VOldemort's wand before James Potter and all > that. But I also have the > paperback edition. Version 20th, and it > contains the same mistake. Weird. > One'd think they'd have had plenty of time to > check the book and fix all the > previous mistakes. Hardback is usually released > later. Lynn: I'm finding it strange that the automatic assumption is that the US version is correct and the UK version is wrong. After all, it's not the first time that Scholastic hasn't done a great job proofreading or has added things that weren't there in the UK version. Is there anything by Bloombury, Scholastic or JKR to support that? I find that the UK version makes sense. When Dumbledore starts pointing out what he thinks the scar hurting means, Fudge quickly points out to Dumbledore that he's not a total idiot and knows that curse scars can act as an alarm. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From ultimatesen at aol.com Tue Jun 10 21:56:47 2003 From: ultimatesen at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:56:47 -0000 Subject: Harry's money (was Ron, Harry, Molly, Money) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59884 Felina: Oh, I was speaking a *little* tongue in cheek, Sen me: it's cool =o)I just enjoy having some intellegent people to discuss HP with that take things well. =o) F: And we definitely see that he is tempted by all the wonderful things to buy - but doesn't. Maybe just a sensation that his good luck may not last? You use an interesting and common phrase - "good head on his shoulders". Doubtless. Harry has an amazing amoutn of maturity and self-control, without feeling too beaten down, given his upbringing. It boils down to an interesting philosophical question that underlies how some writers write, and even how some social thinkers think - "nature v. nurture". Which is more important? Me: Who isn't tempted by cool things to buy when you've got extra money? I believe Harry's maturity and self control (along with the rest you mentioned) is because of how he was treated at the Dursley's. He wasn't really allowed to be a child. From the look of it, as soon as he was old enough he was a house elf of sorts for the Dursley's. He had adult like responsibilities. Granted not financial, but around the house. I'm sure because of the fact he was basically to be seen and not heard he absorbed a lot just be observing. In your last post I responded to you mentioned something about watching budgeting tasks etc with the Dursleys. I'm taking a shot in the dark, but I think a lot of the qualities Harry has is because of the Dursleys. We tend to be a product of our environment. Certain qualities can be inherited but a lot of it is what we learned growing up. I think Harry would have been the same if not better growing up with his parents. The Dursley's approach is of course borderline mental abuse if not full out. Sometimes people in those situations tend to mature faster and be more level headed because they've got the inner strength to overcome it. F: Yes, Harry did calculate that he couldn't splurge on the Firebolt - you're right. I'm just speculating on how he came by the financial knowledge (or is supposed to in canon). My point: if you don't handle money as a child, you don't really understand how it works. Money management and budgeting are *not* instinctive. I'm not a stupid lady by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm not a financial genius, and I've always been way behind the learning curve when it comes to finance and such things because money was pretty much kept from me as a child, along with a discussion of how much things Me: Ack! I'm sorry about your almost archaic upbringing. In a way (financially) you almost had the Potter thing going? I understand your point and know you're right. For some reason, I just *feel* Harry knows he has to be level headed because 1- The Durlsey's aren't going to give him a red penny for Hogwarts (it's been mentioned a time or 2) and 2- He knows he's on his own until he's out of school and 3- Knowing what we know about Vernon, he probably is a loud complainer of bills (I think that was stated in book 1 the day Harry got his first letter) and budget therefore Harry has probably picked up a tip or 2.We all tend to go a bit wild when it comes to getting a nice chunk of money. I don't think I know of a single person who doesn't. I'm giving Harry a lot of credit for knowing his splurges must be on inexpensive things like candy etc because he knows there's no more $ once he runs out. Unless of course he makes it himself. Sen From marie_mouse at hotmail.com Tue Jun 10 21:08:37 2003 From: marie_mouse at hotmail.com (Marie Jadewalker) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:08:37 -0000 Subject: The Twins and the Prize Money In-Reply-To: <14452396151.20030609095320@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59885 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > > Hi, > > Monday, June 09, 2003, 9:46:19 AM, Jesta wrote: > > > Well, theyr'e out of school now > > They are? > > I thought they were only in 6th year in GoF, hence they had > to try to sneak their name into the goblet, instead of being > eligible. > > -- > Best regards, > Susanne mailto:siskiou at e... Hey, This will be short and since there are no replies I don't know if anyone's already done this. At any rate, the Twins should be about to start their seventh year at Hogwarts, not be graduated. In addition to the GOF age thing, there's a direct quote in POA: "At that moment Mrs. Weasley entered the bar, laden with shopping bags and followed by the twins, Fred and George, who were about to start their fifth year at Hogwarts; the newly elected Head Boy, Percy; and the Weasley's youngest child and only girl, Ginny" (Prisoner of Azkaban, Chapter 4; page 61 in the American paperback) So it looks like Gred and Forge will have one more year to test products on their fellow students before striking out into the world of Wizard commerce. :) ~Marie From waters_law at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 21:19:16 2003 From: waters_law at yahoo.com (waters_law) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:19:16 -0000 Subject: crookshanks Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59886 >lunrbebe >wrote: >Is it just me or do you have the feeling that Crockshanks is an >Animagus? Look at the similarities...His name is very close to >Wormtail, Padfoot, Prongs and Moony. All cats have a crock in their >back legs (shanks), so we could safely assume that his name is in >code as well. > Absotively posilutely! I *knew* when we met Crookshanks there was something animagical about him. McGonagall is after all a feline animagus -- I wonder if she has a code name when she's catting around (LOL). I started wondering if Crooksy could even be Lily, caught in animal form somehow, but the priori incantatum scene in GoF blew that out of the water. So now I'm thinking he is a Weasley, based on the red hair. Or maybe Mrs. Figg, whose fondness for cats is well known - - maybe while HP is at school she doesn't have to hang out in Muggle land. I believe he is part of Dumbledore's way of keeping an eye on the trio without them being aware of it. "Waters Law" From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 21:48:00 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Bond) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:48:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Draco In-Reply-To: <20030610040555.64939.qmail@web41501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030610214800.72589.qmail@web20705.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59887 Beckah wrote: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59888 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lorangell" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Serena Moonsilver" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lorangell" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trevor... > > > > > > > > > > > > ...is the proud parent... > > > > > > > > > > > > ...of a basilisk. > > > > > > > > > Ok, did you just read the latest chapter in Cassandra Claire's > Draco > > trilogy? > > > No, I did not (I'm not much into Draco fic) :-) I saw an OotP > sticker that gave me a few ideas. > > "Lorangell" Ok, very weird. I hear this same idea two times in one day! I'm interested why exactly you came up with it. After all what reason would Trevor be needed to give birth to basilisk. After all I hardly see Neville doing it. Serena From fourfuries at aol.com Tue Jun 10 22:16:01 2003 From: fourfuries at aol.com (four4furies) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:16:01 -0000 Subject: Not Arthur, Henry (Was Arthurian legend) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59889 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Renee Daniels" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "constance_chi_town" > wrote: > > I re-read the first 4 books of Harry Potter and revisited > > White's "Once and Future King". I am looking at doing my Thesis on > a > > comparison of the Harry Potter series to the Arthurian Legend. I > > believe that Harry is similar to Arthur and Dumbledore is his > > Merlin. I am curious to see if the future books in the series will > > parallel the Camelot legend plot lines. I find the similarity in > the > > stories very intriguing. > > > > Any thoughts? The closer resemblance IMHO is between Harry Potter, Prince of the Wizarding World, and Shakespeare's Harry Monmouth, Prince of Wales. Each is born to a family of renown, each belies that high birth in their early lives. Harry Monmouth was undistinguished in his studies, showed no martial ability nor kingly aptitude. Harry Potter also showed no early promise, infact, his promise was hidden even from himself. Prince Harry hung out with questionable company like Falstaff, Poins, Bardolph etc. Harry hangs out with Hagrid and Lupin, poor Ron and mudblood Hermione in the same way. Shakespeare's Harry secretly longs to win his father's praise and awe the world with his turnaround from ne'er do well to brilliant monarch. Harry Potter also longs to overcome the opinions of the snobbish wizards and prove himself within the wizarding community, and to be worthy of his father's legacy. Henry had a rival in Hotspur, Harry in Draco. Henry is akward and unschooled in matters of romance, we have yet to see a display of Harry's amourous talents. Most importantly, both stand for the proposition that it is what we do that makes us who we are. Both Harrys have to overcome their current reputations in order to ascend to the level of their birthrights, while Hotspur and Malfoy must fall from the weight of their prejudices, jealousies and poor judgments. As for Dumbledore, he is not long for the story, and serves a role similar to Merlin, but also like that of a cypher for all aged advisors, grandfatherly counselors and keepers of grand legacy. JKR has pulled him out of Arthurian legend and inserted him into british royal history, specifically the brightest star of the english monarchy. JKR, by this measure, assumes the port of the Bard, appropos of the third most widely read author in human history, after the Bible writers and Mao Tse Tung. She is telling a particularly British tale that echos British legends, but draws most fully on English history. MAF From patgruenke at cloudnet.com Tue Jun 10 22:31:54 2003 From: patgruenke at cloudnet.com (Pat and Jim Gruenke) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:31:54 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Message-ID: <3EE65C5A.4040208@cloudnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59890 > Aesha wrote: > Here's a list of people who I think we're not going to hear from > again, taken from the previous list I posted. > > rest of list cut > > 37. Sir Patrick de Mimsy-Porpington > > Can someone please tell me who this is and where they appear.... As > I dont remember hearing about any of Nearly Headless Nicks relatives. > > Thanks Pat Writes: I believe that they've combined the names of Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington (aka Nearly Headless Nick) and Sir Patrick Delany-Podmore, who is the ghost in charge of the Headless Hunt. So, that would actually be one more total person, er ghost! Pat, who has a hard enough time just reading the books out loud to her boys, much less doing the voices! From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 22:41:15 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: <20030610010554.16680.qmail@web21004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030610224115.5684.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59891 --- Becky wrote: Does ANYBODY have a happy > prediction?? Lynn: I had a happy prediction, I predicted I wouldn't have to share my copy of OoP with my hubby. LOL Okay, something else. I predict that Harry will experience his first kiss and it will be with (flipping coin) Cho Chang. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 22:43:21 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:43:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] An addendum to my previous post: who we'll likely *not* hear again In-Reply-To: <002201c32f0c$3a402060$15d0df80@hppav> Message-ID: <20030610224321.7926.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59892 --- Aesha wrote: > Here's a list of people who I think we're > not going to hear from again, taken from the > previous list I posted. > > 1. Archie (though he'd be great for comic > relief, escpecially during these frightening > times in the Wizarding world!) Lynn: I wouldn't rule out Ole Archie there. He seems just the type of person I think about when I think about who may be in the 'old crowd'. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From cindysphynx at comcast.net Tue Jun 10 22:47:38 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:47:38 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59893 Corinthum asked: > Cindy, are you keeping track of these? It'll be very entertaining >to see who was right, wrong, and still unanswered after OoP is >out. Boy, the predictions have been so great that I agree that we should put them somewhere where we can access them easily. Dicentra was kind enough to start a file in the "Files" section, so I'll try to keep it up to date. Cindy -- who can't think of a canon point but who is still chuckling at the idea of Lupin eating a Creevy Brother except for the tough and chewy head From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Tue Jun 10 23:24:07 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:24:07 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: An addendum to my previous post: who we'll likely *not* hear again References: Message-ID: <003501c32fa7$6557e990$845b253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 59894 karenlyall666 > > 37. Sir Patrick de Mimsy-Porpington > > Can someone please tell me who this is and where they appear.... As > I dont remember hearing about any of Nearly Headless Nicks relatives. > > Me (Izaskun) He appears in Chamber of Secrets during Nearly Headless Nick's deathday party. He's the president of the Headless Hunt, though his name is Sir Patrick Delaney-Podmore. I think she just mixed the two names. CHeers, Izaskun > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Tue Jun 10 23:26:45 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:26:45 -0000 Subject: SHIP some OOP from JKR interview In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59895 The interview, or rather television program, that we are talking about can be found here (actually a paraphrase by some of the television viewers, after it had aired on 28 Dec 2001): http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrshow.shtml The news report that you had linked to, referring to this program can be found here: http://www.ananova.com/entertainment/story/sm_480162.html Comparing the two, we have from the Ananova news report: 'She even hints that one of the long-standing characters will be wiped out in the forthcoming three books.' And from the viewer's report on the television program: 'More people are going to die. One death is going to be horrible to write. IT HAS TO BE.' The Ananova news report: 'There will also be further romance following on from Harry Potter And The Goblet Of Fire in which he has a date with a quidditch team- mate - and develops more of an interest in pal Hermione.' And the viewer's report on the television program: 'There was no mention of any specific relationships beginning, but it's clear that one of the sub-stories of the next book is relationships and lurrrve.' Comparing the two reports, it is clear that the viewer's report of the aired television program shows that it reveals a good deal less than the pre-airing reports, of which the Ananova report was one, had claimed. Here is a discussion thread about this whole mess from just before to just after the program first aired: http://www.fictionalley.org/fictionalleypark/forums/showthread.php? threadid=1598 Bill From drdara at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 23:44:43 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What other curse scar? In-Reply-To: <20030610213959.55404.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030610234443.29174.qmail@web14512.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59896 GoF UK version 13th printing page 613 says "You'll forgive me, dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm bell before..." GOF US Version PB edition pg 706 "You'll forgive me Dumbledore, but I've never heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm bell before...." Lynn: I'm finding it strange that the automatic assumption is that the US version is correct and the UK version is wrong. After all, it's not the first time that Scholastic hasn't done a great job proofreading or has added things that weren't there in the UK version. Is there anything by Bloombury, Scholastic or JKR to support that? I find that the UK version makes sense. When Dumbledore starts pointing out what he thinks the scar hurting means, Fudge quickly points out to Dumbledore that he's not a total idiot and knows that curse scars can act as an alarm. Danielle here: I would buy Fudge pointing out to DD that he isn't that stupid, but if not for the first part of his sentence, You'll forgive me DD. and the line that follows afterword with Harry shouting that he saw LV come back. To me it's seems that Fudge is pointing out that he has never heard of it. I think that we in this group are the only ones that have found the mistake in between the 2 versions, I think that the typesetter at the bloomsbury plant may have left it out, and the scholastic people didn't. And people in the UK thinks their version is correct and those in the US thinks our is correct. I wonder if anyone who has it in other languages could tell us what their versions say. At least then we can see how other languages translated that sentence. However maybe steve at lexicon can show us the way the way to see which version is correct. Danielle > For the international news that's fit to print > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to > Outlook(TM). > http://calendar.yahoo.com > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From chesterr at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 07:34:52 2003 From: chesterr at yahoo.com (chesterr) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:34:52 -0000 Subject: thanks for the lines Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59897 Thank you to all of those who posted their favourite lines. I've added some of them to the list of what I had. FYI, here's the story (although in the unsubbed version, so forgive any spellers). It's running (well, probably a smaller version seeing I got carried away) in The Courier-Mail (www.couriermail.com.au) on Saturday. cheers Rod Chester (who is also counting the days to the next book) FOR even the most dedicated fan, J.K. Rowling can be a frustrating woman. At a surface level, her stories are entertaining tales that slowly unfold, detailing the life of a young wizard. But it's the bits below the surface that have Harry Potter fans scratching their heads. Read the stories carefully, and they contain a trail of hints that could reveal secrets about Harry's future challenges. But they're also just as likely to lead you astray. Some of the clues can be as simple as a name. Take Hermione, who shares her name with a character in Greek mythology who was loved by two men. Is this a hint that she will be the apex in a love triangle. Perhaps between Harry and Ron? Or Krum and Ron? Or Harry and Krum? Or is it not a clue at all. An ongoing discussion at Harry Potter for Grown Ups (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/) continues to debate the significance of a line in the fourth Potter book Goblet of Fire "For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. But next second, Harry was sure he had imagined it, for when Dumbledore returned to his seat behind the desk, he looked as old and weary as Harry had ever seen him." So, what is the gleam about? Does Dumbledore has a magical plan? Does he have a secret way of protecting Harry against the evil Lord Voldemort? And what is it? Does it involve Arabella Figg, referred to at the end of book four, who could be the same Mrs Figg, an old spinster who lives with a family of cats, that the Dursley's sometimes call upon to babysit Harry. And when you start thinking along these lines, you find the tales of Harry Potter are littered with what could be clues. The first time you read the first Harry Potter story, you are likely to read over a line when Hagrid Sometimes the lines aren't a clue. Sometimes they're just funny. At one point, in discussing Harry's famous forehead, Dumbledore muses: "Scars can come in handy. I have one myself above my left knee that is a perfect map of the London Underground." While giving the reader an amusing image of a grey-bearded wizard consulting his upper leg before jumping on the Tube, it's unlikely that this is a clue that somehow the ability to navigate the Underground will be difference between the Bad news, Harry. I've just been to see Professor McGonagall about the Firebolt. She - er got a bit shirty with me. Told me I'd got my priorities wrong. Seemed to think I cared more about winning the Cup than I do about staying alive. Just because I told her I didn't care if it threw you off, as long as you caught the Snitch first." --Oliver Wood "I told you!" Ron hissed at Hermione as she stared down the article. "I told you not to annoy Rita Skeeter! She's made you out to be some sort of--scarlet woman!" Hermione stopped looking atonished and snorted with laughter. "Scarlet woman?" she repeated, shaking with surpressed giggles as she looked around at Ron. "It's what my mum calls them," Ron muttered, his ears going red. "A study of Hogwarts prefects and their later careers," Ron read aloud off the back cover. "That sounds fascinating." "Oh, are you a prefect Percy? You should have said something we had no idea." "Hang on I think I remember him saying something about it, Once..." "Or twice-" "A minute-" "All summer-" Why," demanded Ron, seizing her schedule, "have you outlined all Lockhart's lessons in little hearts?" "We tried to shut him (Percy) in a pyramid, but Mum spotted us." --George Weasley "You don't know how bizarre it is to see Goyle thinking." --Ron Weasley as Crabbe (Harry is reading Ron's letter...) Thought I'd send this with Pig anyway. Harry stared at the word "Pig", and looked up at the tiny owl now fluttering around the light fixture on the ceiling. He had never seen anything that looked less like a pig. "Well...when we were in our first year, Harry--young, carefree, and innocent--" Harry snorted. He doubted whether Fred and George had ever been innocent. "Lockhart'll sign anything if it stands still long enough." --Ron Weasley "Sure you can manage that broom, Potter?" said a cold, drawling voice. Draco Malfoy had arrived for a closer look, Crabbe and Goyle right behind him. "Yeah, reckon so," said Harry casually. "Got plenty of special features, hasn't it? said Malfoy, eyes glittering maliciously. "Shame it doesn't come with a parachute--in case you get too near a Dementor." Crabbe and Goyle sniggered. "Pity you can't attach an extra arm to yours, Malfoy," said Harry. "Then it could catch the Snitch for you." "Yeah, I've seen those things they think are gnomes," said Ron, bent double with his head in a peony bush, "like fat little Santa Clauses with fishing rods." --Ron Weasley Ron was staring at Pettigrew with the utmost revulsion. "I let you sleep in my bed!" he said. "What would we want to be prefects for?" said George looking revolted at the very idea. "It'd take all the fun out of life." --George Weasley Dudley had done the thing he was threatening to to do since age three: He had become wider than he was tall. (Dumbledore talking to Professor McGonagall...) "It's lucky it's dark... I haven't blushed so much since Madame Pomfrey told me she liked my new earmuffs." --Albus Dumbledore "Enjoying it?" said Ron darkly. "I don't reckon he'd come home if Dad didn't make him. He's obsessed. Just don't get him onto the subject of his boss. According to Mr. Crouch...as I was saying to Mr Crouch...Mr. Crouch is of the opinion...Mr. Crouch was telling me... They'll be announcing their engagement any day now." Dudley looked alot like Uncle Vernon. He had a large pink face, not much neck, small watery blue eyes, and thick blonde hair that lay smoothly on his thick, fat head. Aunt Petunia often said that Dudley looked like a baby angel. Harry often said that Dudley looked like a pig in a wig. "Don't tell your mother you've been gambling," Mr. Weasley implored Fred and George as they all made their way slowly down the purple-carpeted stairs. "Don't worry, Dad," said Fred gleefully, "we've got big plans for this money. We don't want it confiscated." Mr. Weasley looked for a moment as though he was going to ask what these big plans were, but seemed to decide, upon reflection, that he didn't want to know. "Yer' great puddin' of a son don' need fattenin' anymore, Dursley don' worry." --Hagrid "Poor old Snuffles," said Ron, breathing deeply. "He must really like you, Harry... imagine having to live off rats." (Ron talking about Norbert the dragon...) "I tell you, that dragon is the most horrible creature I've ever met, but the way Hagrid goes about it you'd think it was a fluffy little bunny rabbit. When it bit me, he told me off for frightening it. And when I left he was singing it a lullaby." --Ron Weasley "Well, I can certainly see why were trying to keep them alive." said Malfoy sarcastically. "Who wouldn't want pets that can burn, sting, and suck blood all at once?" (While under the trap door over Fluffy...) "So light a fire!" Harry choked. "Yes... Of course... But there's no wood!" Hermione cried wringing her hands. "HAVE YOU GONE MAD!" Ron bellowed, "ARE YOU A WITCH OR NOT!" (Lavender...) "Oh Professor look! I think I found an unaspected planet! Oooh, which one's that, Professor?" "It is Uranus my dear." said Professor Trelawney peering down a the chart. "Can I have a look at Uranus too, Lavender?" said Ron. (Dumbledore talking to Harry while he is in the hospital wing...) "I believe misters Fred and George Weasley were responsible for trying to send you a toilet seat." --Dumbledore "Aaaah," said Ron, imitating Professor Trelawney's mystical whisper, "when two Neptunes appear in the sky, it is a sure sign that a midget in glasses is being born." "We had to write about our hero at school Mr. Mason, I wrote about you." --Dudley (While Ron and Harry are doing their Divination homework...) "You seem to be drowning twice," said Hermione. "Oh, am I?" said Ron peering down at his predictions. "I'd better change one of them to getting trampled by a rampaging Hippogriff." "Don't you think it's a bit obvious you've made these up?" said Hermione. "How dare you!" said Ron in mock outrage. "We've been working like house elves here!" Fred and George, however, found all this very funny. They went out of their way to march ahead of Harry down the corridors, shouting, "Make way for the Heir of Slytherin, seriously evil wizard coming through. . ." "You're alive," she said blankly to Harry. "There's no need to sound so disappointed," he said grimly, wiping flecks of blood and slime off his glasses. "Oh, well...I'd just been thinking...if you had died, you'd have been welcome to share my toilet," said Myrtle, blushing silver. Harry learned quickly not to feel to sorry for the gnomes. He decided to just drop the first one just over the hedge, but the gnome, sensing weakness, sank his razor sharp teeth into Harry's finger and he had a hard job shaking it off until -- "Wow, Harry-that must have been fifty feet." "Don't be prat, Neville, that's illegal," said George. "They wouldn't use the Cruciatus Curse on the champions. I thought it sounded a bit like Percy singing... maybe you've got to attack him while he's in the shower, Harry." George looked up in time to see Malfoy pretending to faint with terror again. "That little git," he said calmly. "He wasn't so cocky last night when the dementors were down our end of the train. Came running into our compartment, didn't he, Fred?" "Nearly wet himself," said Fred, with a contemptuous glance at Malfoy. "Excuse me, I don't like people just because they're handsome!" said Hermione indignantly. Ron gave a loud false cough, which sounded oddly like "Lockhart!" Percy had what were possibly the least helpful words of comfort. "They make a fuss about Hogsmeade, but I assure you, Harry, it's not all it's cracked up to be," he said seriously. "All right, the sweetshop's rather good, and Zonko's Joke Shop's frankly dangerous, and yes, the Shrieking Shack alway's worth a visit, but really, Harry, apart from that, you're not missing anything." "OH NO YOU DON'T, LADDIE!" Harry spun around. Professor Moody was limping down the marble staircase. His wand was out and it was pointing right at a pure white ferret. "I want to fix that in my memory forever," said Ron, his closed and an uplifted expression on his face. "Draco Malfoy, the amazing bouncing ferret..." "Where is Wood?" said Harry, suddenly realizing he wasn't there. "Still in the showers," said Fred. "We think he's trying to drown himself." (Professor Trelawney...) "I was saying that Saturn was surely in a position of power in the heavens at the moment of your birth...your dark hair...your mean stature...tragic losses so young in life...I think I am right in saying, my dear, that you were born in midwinter?" "No," said Harry, "I was born in July." Ron hastily turned his laugh into a hacking cough. "Mr. Moony presents his compliments to Professor Snape, and begs him to keep his abnormally large nose out of other people's business." "Mr. Prongs agrees with Mr. Moony, and would like to add that Professor Snape is an ugly git." "Mr. Padfoot would like to register his astonishment that an idiot like that ever became a professor." "Mad-Eye Moody?" said George thoughtfully, spreading marmalade on his toast. "Isn't he that nutter--" "Your father thinks very highly of Mad-Eye Moody," said Mrs. Weasley sternly. "Yeah, well, Dad collects plugs, doesn't he?" said Fred quietly as Mrs. Weasley left the room. "Birds of a feather..." (Talking to Percy..) "That'll change the world, that report will," said Ron. "Front page of the Daily Prophet, I expect, cauldron leaks." One of them was a very old wizard who was wearing a long flowery nightgown. The other was clearly a Ministry wizard; he was holding out a pair of pinstriped trousers and almost crying with exasperation. "Just put them on, Archie, there's a good chap. You can't walk around like that, the Muggle at the gate's already getting suspicious--" "I bought this in a Muggle shop," said the old wizard stubbornly. "Muggles wear them." "Muggle women wear them, Archie, not the men, they wear these," said the Ministry wizard, and he brandished the pinstriped trousers. "I'm not putting them on," said old Archie in indignation. "I like a healthy breeze 'round my privates, thanks." "Yeah, someone might slip dragon dung in it again, eh, Perce?" said Fred. "That was a sample of fertilizer from Norway!" said Percy, going very red in the face. "It was nothing personal!" "It was," Fred whispered to Harry as they got up from the table. "We sent it." Furious, Harry threw his ingredients and his bag into his cauldron and dragged it up to the front of the dungeon to the empty table. Snape followed, sat down at his desk and watched Harry unload his cauldron. Determined not to look at Snape, Harry resumed the mashing of his scarab beetles, imagining each one to have Snape's face. "He sounds exactly like Moody," said Harry quietly, tucking the letter away again inside his robes. "'Constant vigilance!' You'd think I walk around with my eyes shut, banging off the walls...." "How're we getting to King's Cross tomorrow, Dad?" asked Fred as they dug into a sumptuous pudding. "The Ministry's providing a couple of cars," said Mr. Weasley. Everyone looked up at him. "Why?" said Percy curiously. "It's because of you, Perce," said George seriously. "And there'll be little flags on the hoods, with HB on them-" "-for Humongous Bighead," said Fred. (Harry had just been greeted by Percy...) "Harry!" said Fred, elbowing Percy out of the way and bowing deeply. "Simply splendid to see you, old boy-" "Marvelous," said George, pushing Fred aside and seizing Harry's hand in turn. "Absolutely spiffing." Percy scowled. "That's enough, now," said Mrs. Weasley. "Mum!" said Fred as though he'd only just spotted her and seized her hand too. "How really corking to see you-" Everybody finished the song at different times. At last, only the Weasley twins were left singing along to a very slow funeral march. "Welcome!" he said. "Welcome to a new year at Hogwarts! Before we begin our banquet, I would like to say a few words, and here they are: Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak! Thank you!" "Wild! I can make that old bloke down there pick his nose again...and again...and again..." --Ron "Ah, of course! There is no need to tell me any more, Ms. Granger. Which one of you will be dying this year?" --Prof. McGonagall "Harry, this is no time to be a gentleman! Knock her off her broom if you have to!" --Oliver Wood "Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs," sighed George, patting the heading of the map. "We owe them so much." "Noble men, working tirelessly to help a new generation of lawbreakers." said Fred solemnly..." "Longbottom, if brains were gold then you'd be poorer than Weasley, and that's saying something." --Draco "Ah, well, people can be stupid abou' their pets." --Hagrid "But we're not stupid -- we know we're called Gred and Forge." --George Weasley Trelawny: "Would anyone like me to help interpet the shadowy realms within their orb?" Ron: "I don't need help, it's obvious what this means: there's going to be loads of fog tonight." Trelawney: "The fates have informed me that your examination in June will concern the orb, and I am anxious to give you sufficient practice." Hermione: "Well honestly...'the fates have informed her'...who sets date of the exam? She does! What an amazing prediction!" "Percy wouldn't recognize a joke if it danced naked in front of him wearing Dobby's tea cozy." --Ron "Viktor? Hasn't he asked you to call him Vicky yet?" --A very jealous Ron "I don't know who Maxime thinks she's kidding. If Hagrid's a half-giant, she definitely is. Big bones...the only thing that's got bigger bones than her is a dinosaur." --Harry "Half an inch of skin and sinew holding my neck on, Harry! Most people would think that's good as beheaded, but oh, no, it's not enough for Sir Properly Decapitated-Podmore." --Nearly Headless Nick "Azkaban -- the wizard prison, Goyle," said Malfoy, looking at him in disbelief. "Honestly, if you were any slower, you'd be going backward." --Draco Moaning Myrtle: "Peeves upset me so much that I came in here and tried to kill myself. Then, of course, I remembered that I'm -- that I'm--" "Already dead?" "Shouldn'ta lost me temper, but it didn't work anyway. Meant ter turn him into a pig, but I s'pose he was so much like a pig anyway that there wasn't much left ter do." --Hagrid "I hope you're pleased with yourselves. We could have been killed -- or worse, expelled!" -Hermione He therefore had to endure over an hour of Professor Trelawney, who spent half the lesson telling everyone that the position of Mars with relation to Saturn at that moment meant that people born in July were in great danger of sudden, violent deaths. "Well, that's good," said Harry loudly, his temper getting the better of him, "just as long as it's not drawn out. I don't want to suffer." Lee Jordan was finding it difficult not to take sides. "So--after that obvious and disgusting bit of cheating--" "Jordan!" growled Professor McGonagall. "I mean, after that open and revolting foul--" "Jordan, I'm warning you--" "All right, all right. Flint nearly kills the Gryffindor Seeker, which could happen to anyone, I'm sure..." "Professor Kettleburn, our Care of Magical Creatures teacher, retired at the end of last year in order to enjoy more time with his remaining limbs." --Dumbledore Ron: "Who're you going with then?" Fred: "Angelina." Ron: "What? You've already asked her?" Fred: "Good point. Oi, Angelina! Want to come to the ball with me?" "Twitchy little ferret, aren't you Malfoy?" --Hermione Ron: "I could've taken those mer-idiots any time I wanted." Hermione: "What were you going to do, snore at them?" Hermione: "Harry, I've been thinking -- you know what we've got to do, don't you? Straight away, the moment we get back to the castle?" Harry: "Yeah, give Ron a good kick up the--" Hermione: "Write to Sirius." "I will only truly have left this school none here are loyal to me... Help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it." --Dumbledore "The first word out of those poor Petrified people's mouths will be 'It was Hagrid.' Frankly, I'm astounded Professor McGonagall thinks all these security measures are necessary."--Gilderoy Lockhart "There is no good and evil, there is only power...and those too weak to seek it." --Quirrel "If you made a better rat than a human, that's not much to boast about." --Sirius Black "To the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure." --Albus Dumbledore "Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where it keeps its brain." --Arthur Weasley "It is our choices Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." --Dumbledore "You should have died! Died rather than betray your friends, as we would have done for you!" --Sirius Black "Fear of a name increases fear of a thing itself." --Dumbledore "Voldemort...is my past, present and future..." --Tom Riddle "When a wizard goes over to the dark side there's nothin', and no one matters to 'em anymore." --Hagrid "Haven't I already told you that killing Mudbloods doesn't matter to me any more? For many months now, my new target has been -- you." --Tom Riddle "Humans have a knack for choosing precisely the things that are worst for them." --Dumbledore "Quite the double act, Sirius Black and James Potter." --Madame Rosmerta "His eyes are as green as a fresh pickled toad his hair as dark as a blackboard, I wish he was mine, he's really divine, The hero who conquered the dark lord." --Ginny "I'm not blamin' yeh...but I gotta tell yeh, I thought you two'd value yer friend more'n broomsticks or rats. Tha's all." --Hagrid "If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." --Sirius Black "Remember Cedric. Remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy who was good, and kind, and brave, because he strayed across the path of Lord Voldemort. Remember Cedric Diggory." --Dumbledore "Hearing voices no one else can hear isn't a good sign, even in the wizarding world." --Ron "I don't need a cloak to become invisible." --Dumbledore "I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death -- if you aren't as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach." --Snape "Your mother died to save you. If there is one thing Voldemort can't understand, it's love." --Dumbledore "I seem to remember telling you both that I would have to expel you if you broke any more school rules," said Dumbledore. Ron opened his mouth in horror. "Which goes to show that the best of us must sometimes eat our words," Dumbledore went on, smiling. "And Potter -- do try and win, won't you? Or we'll be out of the running for the eighth year in a row, as Professor Snape was kind enough to remind me only last night..." --Prof. McGonagall "I don't go looking for trouble. Trouble usually finds me." --Harry "What was there to be gained by fighting the most evil wizard who has ever existed? Only innocent lives, Peter." --Sirius Black "There's enough filth on my robes without you touching them." --Sirius Black "Are you insane? Of course I want to leave the Dursleys! Have you got a house? When can I move in?" --Harry "Not at all up to your usual standard, Hermione," he said. "Only one out of three, I'm afraid. I have not been helping Sirius get into the castle and I certainly don't want Harry dead...but I won't deny that I am a werewolf." --Lupin "He was my mum and dad's best friend. He's a convicted murderer, but he's broken out of wizard prison and he's on the run. He likes to keep in touch with me, though...keep up with news...check if I'm happy..." --Harry "Please, sir," said Hermione, whose hand was still in the air, "the werewolf differs from the true wolf in several small ways. The snout of the werewolf--" "That is the second time you have spoken out of turn, Miss Granger," Snape said coolly. "Five more points from Gryffindor for being an insufferable know-it-all." Hermione went very red, put down her hand and stared at the floor with her eyes full of tears. It was a mark of how much the class loathed Snape, they were all glaring at him, because every one of them had called Hermione a know-it-all at least once, and Ron, who told Hermione she was a know-it-all at least twice a week, said loudly, "You asked us a question and she knows the answer! Why ask if you don't want to be told?" "I still don't like your tone, boy. If you can speak of your beatings in that casual way, they clearly aren't hitting you hard enough. Petunia, I'd write to them if I were you. Make it clear that you approve the use of extreme force in this boy's case." --Aunt Marge "You might even have a scar now, if you're lucky...that's what you want, isn't it?" --Harry to Ron "There you go, Harry! You weren't being thick after all -- you were just showing moral fiber!" --Ron "You are truly your father's son, Harry..." --Sirius Black "'Course Dumbledore trusts you. He's a trusting man, isn't he? Believes in second chances. But me -- I say there are spots that don't come off, Snape. Spots that never come off, know what I mean?" --Moody From dkratzer at wownet.com Tue Jun 10 22:05:11 2003 From: dkratzer at wownet.com (Dan) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:05:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snapes assignment References: Message-ID: <001d01c32f9c$5d6e4fe0$1400a8c0@danielbhfl37cx> No: HPFGUIDX 59898 Abby said: > GoF. Well, here is a new idea (I hope). Snape uses polyjuice potion > to pretend to be Barty Crouch Jr. for Voldemort, who dosen't know > that Barty had been kissed. By being Voldemort's loyal servant, > Snape can find out anything he wants to about Voldemort's plans. OF > course, this theory kinda falls apart if Fudge is a Death Eater and > told Voldemort about Barty's kiss. Oh well. My thought: I like the idea, but they have to have a living person in able to perform the polyjuice potion correct? There was a line that I think supports this from GoF when DD goes into Moody's trunk and finds the real Moody and says "Stunned -- controlled by the Imperius Curse -- very weak," "Of course, they would have needed to keep him alive." (us paperback pg 681). One reason so that Crouch Jr. can find out anything he needs to about Moody, but another for the component for the Polyjuice Potion. Just my thoughts, but the idea of Snape becoming Crouch Jr. would be excellent if there were another way to do it because like Voldie said in the graveyard, he knows one DE has left him forever and he will be killed (my thoughts that he refers to Snape - see topic "Who will die in books 5, 6, 7") so Snape can't very well show his face to Voldie. Just another random thought Dan From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 22:11:47 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Bond) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:11:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Azkaban, Dementors, and the Prison system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030610221147.15163.qmail@web20704.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59899 Everyone here knows that Azkaban is Wizard prison...but with wizards in every country in the world, does it make sense for it to be the *only* wizard prison? Is Azkaban just for criminals in the same range that Hogwarts has (England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales), or does it extend further to include Western Europe? Furtheremore, are dementors used universally as Enforcers in Wizarding prisons? If not, what methods are used to keep the prisoners in, and how reliable are they? Thoughts? Opinions? Comments? Rotton fruit? I'd welcome all, this has been plauging my mind all day. - Joe S. Very interesting question. I would assume that Dementors are a fairly staple case in most Wizarding prisons. Given that I believe that a Dementor's Kiss is like the death penalty only worst because it requires that one live in tourment and torture their entire life. As for other wizarding prisons there might be some but I think they are not very many of them..certainly not as many as muggle prisons have. Just because it's easier for crimes to be committed in in various countries..it seems easier to travel in the wizarding world. That in fact in some ways they are more connected than the muggle world. "Melanie" --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From absentcommish at hotmail.com Tue Jun 10 22:26:11 2003 From: absentcommish at hotmail.com (kidinphilly) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:26:11 -0000 Subject: best lines in the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59900 Just joined the group and am re-reading GoF when I came across this one when the Hungarian Veela start their show: "All that mattered in the world was that he kept watching the veela, because if they stopped dancing, terrible things would happen..." Chris From galadriel1 at mail.charter.net Tue Jun 10 23:35:41 2003 From: galadriel1 at mail.charter.net (abhamghp) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:35:41 -0000 Subject: Book Six Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59901 I know that I'm getting a little ahead of the game, but I'm afraid of this anti-climactic let down after I've read book five. Does anyone know if JKR has begun writing book six? "abhamghp" From p_prideaux at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 10 23:41:09 2003 From: p_prideaux at yahoo.co.uk (Paul Prideaux) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:41:09 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59902 Arthur Weasley states in CoS that you shouldn't trust anything that can think if you can't see where it keeps its brain. Does this apply to the Sorting Hat also, I wonder? It can certainly think, but there's little room for its brain! =) I think there's got to be far more revealed about the Sorting Hat in future books. Pryd. x From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Wed Jun 11 00:00:40 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:00:40 -0000 Subject: Book Six In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59903 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "abhamghp" wrote: > I know that I'm getting a little ahead of the game, but I'm afraid > of this anti-climactic let down after I've read book five. Does > anyone know if JKR has begun writing book six? > > "abhamghp" Bill: I do not have the URL, but I have read that JKR is reportedly already halfway through the first draft of Book 6. Bill From kristen at sanderson-web.com Wed Jun 11 00:08:34 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (GKJPO) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:08:34 -0000 Subject: My "one" most rock solid prediction for OOP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59904 I haven't been reading other posts in this thread because I wanted to post my thoughts without getting ideas from other responders - so I apologize if others have predicted this also: Neville comes into his own by recovering from the memory charm applied to him when his parents were attacked. We visit Neville's parents at St. Mungos (new area we've never been to) and find out that his parents aren't as damaged as we thought. Lucius Malfoy has been paying (oh, I mean contributing :) to the hospital to keep their real condition under wraps. Ok, I have 2 predictions...Percy gets duped by LV or one of his agents to help the dark side. Percy realizes in the end what he has done, but is too late to prevent the death of Molly Weasley. Kristen From kristen at sanderson-web.com Wed Jun 11 00:11:32 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (GKJPO) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:11:32 -0000 Subject: A poll by post - who has the Marauder's Map? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59905 Just a little more fun to kill time before the big event. I'm curious who you think has ended up with the Marauder's Map after the confessional in GoF. Do you choose: a. Dumbledore b. Harry/Ron/Hermione c. Snape d. McGonagal e. Winky f. Real!Moody g. Other...explain From drdara at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 00:38:07 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:38:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] A poll by post - who has the Marauder's Map? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030611003807.79529.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59906 Most likely, DD or the real Moody discovered it in Fake's Moody office and gave it back to Harry. Danielle --- GKJPO wrote: > Just a little more fun to kill time before the big > event. I'm > curious who you think has ended up with the > Marauder's Map after the > confessional in GoF. Do you choose: > > a. Dumbledore > b. Harry/Ron/Hermione > c. Snape > d. McGonagal > e. Winky > f. Real!Moody > g. Other...explain > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From nplyon at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 00:41:24 2003 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (Nicole L.) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:41:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who is Crookshanks? In-Reply-To: <1055289243.8118.88339.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030611004124.67261.qmail@web41704.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59907 > Absotively posilutely! I *knew* when we met > Crookshanks there was > something animagical about him. McGonagall is after > all a feline > animagus -- I wonder if she has a code name when > she's catting around > (LOL). I started wondering if Crooksy could even be > Lily, caught in > animal form somehow, but the priori incantatum scene > in GoF blew that > out of the water. So now I'm thinking he is a > Weasley, based on the > red hair. Or maybe Mrs. Figg, whose fondness for > cats is well known - > - maybe while HP is at school she doesn't have to > hang out in Muggle > land. I believe he is part of Dumbledore's way of > keeping an eye on > the trio without them being aware of it. > > "Waters Law" *Nicole emerges from a long hibernation in lurker land, rubbing her eyes and staring at the brilliant landscape around her.* I could not resist replying to this post because there were many fascinating discussions about Crookshanks in this group in the past. I highly suggest browing the archives for them. I am of the opinion that there will not be any more surprise animagi in HP because it's been done so much that doing it once more would cause it to be done to death. And, at any rate, I don't think that Crookshanks could possibly be one anyway. A fan theorized that Crookshanks is part kneazle, which was confirmed by JKR. Unfortunately, I don't remember where the link to this is, but maybe someone else out there does? For those of you who don't have "Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them", go buy a copy! Anyway, in the description of kneazles, it is noted that they are "intelligent, independent, and occassionally agressive..." It goes on to say that the kneazle "has an uncanny ability to detect unsavoury or suspicious characters" and that it "can be relied upon to guide its owner safely home if they are lost." (Pg. 24, FBAWTFT) In other words, sorry, but the animagus theory seems to be out. However, there are a whole lot of interesting theories that can and have been proposed about just what significance Crookshanks' part-kneazleness will have in future books. ~Nicole, who's been away for a LONG time but is currently reading HP in French and so hasn't completely fallen off the wagon. ===== ***************************************************************** "You haven't got a letter on yours," George observed. "I suppose she thinks you don't forget your name. But we're not stupid--we know we're called Gred and Forge." Chapter 12, "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" ***************************************************************** __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From yellows at aol.com Wed Jun 11 00:48:29 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:48:29 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: In response to a big prediction for OotP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59908 In a message dated 6/10/2003 12:07:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, tammy at mauswerks.net writes: > Ron confides his feelings for Hermione to Harry. Harry is torn > between Ginny and Cho, and seeks out Hermione, privately, for some > female advice. Ron gets wind of the private chat, and interprets it > the wrong way. His jealousy explodes, and he accuses Harry of > betraying him, and LEAVES THE TRIO. Colin, seeing the split, horns in > on Ron's place, and becomes Harry's new best buddy. On the fateful > night, toward the end of the year, when Voldemort makes his > appearance, the Trio is faced with a chilling, sadistic choice. > Voldemort has two hostages, and there's only a chance to save ONE of > them. Harry has to choose between saving Ron and saving Dennis > Creevey. Ron, who had deserted him, or poor, innocent, baby-brother to > new best buddy, and too cute, to boot, Dennis Creevey. > > Harry chooses to save Ron, of course, and too cute to live Dennis > dies. Colin, outraged at the betrayal by his hero, secretly meets with > Draco, and subsequently becomes the first Muggle-born junior Death > Eater. I love this prediction. :) In fact, I love all of the predictions -- they are *so* much fun to read! This one I think will come at least partly true. I say "partly" because: I really can see this thing with HRH happening. First, I expect Ron to come to terms relatively soon with his feelins for Hermione. They're getting a bit obvious and it's going to look odd if he can't accept it before long. And, of course, one of the first (if not the first and only) people he'll confide in will be Harry. I can also see Harry and Hermione's friendship looking sketchy again to a few other people, perhaps including Ron, as it did to Krum and Rita Skeeter in GoF. That all sounds very plausible to me. But the rest of it I disagree with, and I'll tell you why so maybe you can change my mind for me. :) I don't think Ron will leave the trio. He's sort of done that already (when he and Harry weren't speaking in GoF) and it would make him look too much like a little whiner (no comments, please, those of you who want to prove Ron a huge crybaby! I love Ron! ). I just think JKR might let this go and have that be Ron and Harry's big fight for now. Maybe they'll part ways again for a bit, but the next time it will be over something much less petty. Also, with all the stock that is placed in choices in the series, I wonder what it would mean for one of Harry's choices to be something like the book "Sophie's Choice." For Harry to *choose* that someone should die seems like a bad choice to me, no matter what. I could see him doing something like he did in the second task of GoF, where he frees Ron first, but also tries to save the Creevy brother. And there I can accept that the Creevy brother somehow doesn't make it and Colin ends up hating Harry for his mistake. But I can't see Harry doing *nothing* to save the other person, no matter who it is. What do you think? :) Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susannahlm at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 00:59:49 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:59:49 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OOP Prediction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59909 Well, I would have felt slightly sheepish about proposing something so tame, but let's face it: after that "Lupin will eat Dennis Creevey (and then kill himself), thereby turning Colin Creevey to the Dark Side" business, most *any* prediction is gonna seem tame. So here we go. Okay. In OOP, I think we are gonna find out: -------- A: 1: That Snape loved Lily. 2: That this fact -- I ain't crazy about it either -- did have something to do with Snape's leaving the DE's. 3: That Snape was the spy who told Dumbledore that Voldemort was after the Potters. 4: That Snape tried to warn James Potter that he had been betrayed. 5. That James Potter may not have been perfect after all. -------- After we find all this out: B: 1: Harry will be very uncomfortable. 2: Ron will be disgusted. 3: Hermione will probably announce that she had already figured it out, and will almost certainly have a great deal more sympathy for Our Poor Severus than either of the boys will. 4: And if *Sirius* ever found out, there will probably be a great deal of violence shortly after he mentions it to Snape. --------- Derannimer, who thinks she'd rather that Sirius didn't find out, as she thinks that that scene would be extraordinarily embarrassing; and who would like to say that yes, this is all one prediction. Bound together by a non-severability clause, so to speak -- except for [B, 4], which is contigent. But other than that one, I'm betting on all of them. From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 01:04:44 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:04:44 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snapes assignment References: <001d01c32f9c$5d6e4fe0$1400a8c0@danielbhfl37cx> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59910 Dan (a very nice name, might I add) wrote: I like the idea, but they have to have a living person in able to perform the polyjuice potion correct? There was a line that I think supports this from GoF when DD goes into Moody's trunk and finds the real Moody and says "Stunned -- controlled by the Imperius Curse -- very weak," "Of course, they would have needed to keep him alive." (us paperback pg 681). Me (also named Dan): Isn't Crouch Jr. still alive? He got Kissed (GoF, "The Parting of Ways"), but that just leaves him Zombie!Crouch Jr., a freaky little shell, stumbling about (if at all)... That means Crouch Jr. *can* be used for polyjuice (yippee!). Thought I'd contribute something (for once), Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kemp at arcom.com.au Wed Jun 11 01:09:14 2003 From: kemp at arcom.com.au (pickle_jimmy) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:09:14 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59911 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Paul Prideaux" wrote: > Arthur Weasley states in CoS that you shouldn't > trust anything that can think if you can't see > where it keeps its brain. Does this apply to the > Sorting Hat also, I wonder? It can certainly > think, but there's little room for its brain! =) > > I think there's got to be far more revealed about > the Sorting Hat in future books. > > Pryd. > x It's not just the Hat, there are a bunch of "non brain thinking" items that concern me - and Arthur is guilty himself. 1) The Flying Car - goes wild, lives in the forrest, saves Ron & Harry from the spiders - used to belong to the very man giving the warning 2) Riddles Diary 3) Mauraders Map (to a degree - smart enough to insult Snape) 4) The many paintings around Hogwarts - obvious thinkers 5) The goblet of fire (again to a degree, it has to 'decide' on the most worth champion) And now for mr weasley's defence - "Ginny!" said Mr. Weasley, flabbergasted. "Haven't I taught you anything. What have I always told you? Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can't see where it keeps its brain? Why didn't you show the diary to me, or your mother? A suspicious object like that, it was clearly full of Dark Magic" Ginny is nearly killed because she disobeyed this simple piece of parental advice. Something that in the WW is probably like us muggles telling our children not to talk to strangers. We talk to strangers all the time, we introduce our children to strangers. The problem with strangers is that our children don't have enough experience to know when *not* to trust a stranger, or when that stranger might be out to cause them harm - so we blanket *all* strangers in the "not to talk to" category until we vet them. This seems to be the lesson Mr Weasley is trying to teach Ginny - "Why didn't you show the diary to me or your mother?" - this way we could have decided if it were dangerous or not. This would probably be the same statement Mr W would make if he knew about the mauraders map. Sorry if I lost anyone - in brief: are all items that "think without brains" dangerous (or full of Dark Magic), I would have to say no. In the same way that all stranger's aren't dangerous. Should young inexperienced wizards that stray across items that "think without brains" be wary, yes. In the same way our children should be wary of strangers. If introduced to an item like the Sorting Hat or one of the many Portraits by someone you trust then it (generally) should be ok. Pickle Jimmy From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 01:13:15 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:13:15 -0000 Subject: A poll by post - who has the Marauder's Map? In-Reply-To: <20030611003807.79529.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59912 GJKPO wrote: Just a little more fun to kill time before the big event. I'm curious who you think has ended up with the Marauder's Map after the confessional in GoF. Danielle replied: Most likely, DD or the real Moody discovered it in Fake's Moody office and gave it back to Harry. Tom comments: Ahh, but Real!Moody wouldn't even know what the map was, or to whom it belonged, because he was locked up for all that time. So, I'm guessing that Dumbledore will have it. Assuming that she isn't evil, if McGonagall found it while she was watching over Crouch, Jr., she'd have given it to Dumbledore. Although, I guess that Fudge could have acquired it while he was at Moody's office with his dementor friend. Anyways, I'm also guessing that even if Dumbledore has it, it will somehow end up back in Harry's possession. Judging by how he handled the Invisibility Cloak, he might even give it to Harry. And then again, Dumbledore did seem taken aback by the mention of the map, so he could decide that he *needs* it, for one reason or another. Although come to think of *that,* I suspect that he already has some similar method of keeping track of the goings-on at Hogwarts. -Tom, who can't seem to make up his mind. ;-) From yellows at aol.com Wed Jun 11 01:14:10 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:14:10 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Constellations and Harry Potter Message-ID: <8f.2deff032.2c17dc62@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59913 In a message dated 6/10/2003 3:53:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, Red and Gold Lion writes: > Wow, someone actually found one of my posts intesting? A historic > moment. ;) Here's the rest of the information you requested, plus a > few other things I've looked up since yesterday. Again, thrilling. I really find this interesting and would like to venture a question: Could JKR be basing much of her plots on things she has learned from the stars? As we know, the centaurs in her book are very interested in the constellations, and Trelawney, however a fake, also believes in them. Could she be letting us in on a plot device she's been using since the beginning? I'd like to look into this further. :) Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 01:23:48 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:23:48 -0000 Subject: OOP: who has the Marauder's Map? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59914 NOTE, I changed the heading 'cause of the OOP spoiler that'll be cited in this message. I wrote previously: -Tom, who can't seem to make up his mind. ;-) I reply to me: Okay, in that vein: Winky was left alone in that office after Fudge's dementor administered the kiss to Barty Jr. When that happened, McGonagall and Fudge gravitated down to the hospital wing, presumably leaving her there. Dumbledore knows that she's still in the office during the 'Parting of the Ways,' because he sends Madam Pomfrey to collect her. So, that gives her a definite window of opportunity in the office. She could easily 'happen to notice' an active moving map of the school grounds. After all, the map would be 'on,' since we've no indication that Crouch!Moody knew how to operate it, nor did Harry ever tell him in canon. So, if she'd just witnessed the administration of the dementor's kiss on her beolved Barty, Jr. then she very well might go ballistic, the seeds of derangement having been planted by the utter destruction of the family she loved. Now totally alone, with no chance of going back to the Crouches, she could start to slowly fall into insanity, and just might start seeking revenge. How the map might caluculate into her plans is anyone's guess. This might explain the idea of a 'venomous, disgruntled house-elf' that the Scholastic summary for OOP mentioned. Imagine a vengeful Winky with the Marauder's Map. ELEVEN DAYS!!! -Tom From maidne at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 01:25:31 2003 From: maidne at yahoo.com (maidne) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:25:31 -0000 Subject: Draco In-Reply-To: <20030610040555.64939.qmail@web41501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59915 wrote: Either that or maybe someone like HRH or any other good character will save Dracos life causing him to take a different look at his life and the direction it is taking. I would love to hear any and all opinions on my train of thought. And if you think it's rediculously stupid please don't send too many howlers LOL!!!! > > > Beckah Susan: I don't really think being saved by Harry & friends will make Draco have a sudden change of heart. If anything it would probably make him hate them more, like the way Snape feels about James. > bboy_mn writes: > > > Even after Draco comes over to the good side, he will still be Draco. > He will still be a severe odds with Ron and Harry. He will still be a > total jerk. And he will be on the good side because it is the side > that most effectively serves his future interests. He will be on the > good side not because it is the right thing to do, but because it is > the right thing to do for Draco Malfoy. > Susan: This sounds even more like Snape. If Draco does change sides (and I'm not convinced he will) I think this is the mostly likely way it will play out. Does it count as being redeemed if you go over to the good side, but still hate all the good guys? From heidit at netbox.com Wed Jun 11 01:23:20 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:23:20 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is Crockshanks? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59916 Crookshanks is part Kneazle, as someone else said earlier this evening. You can search for the online chat where jkr said this by using the Quick Quotes section of the Floo Network (formerly The Goat Pen). I think the url is floonetwork.net but if it's not you can get to it via the-leaky-cauldron.net - just scroll down the front page. Heidi, on blackberry and not the web tonight -----Original Message----- From: "Brooke" Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:37:39 To:HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is Crockshanks? Real-To: "Brooke" --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lunrbebe" wrote: > Is it just me or do you have the feeling that Crockshanks is an > Animagus? Look at the similarities...His name is very close to > Wormtail, Padfoot, Prongs and Moony. All cats have a crock in their > back legs (shanks), so we could safely assume that his name is in code > as well. > > Another thing that bothers me is JKR always refers to him as orange, > red, or ginger, could this be a referance to Lillys side of the > family? I don't know if you know any redheads, I do, and what I have > found is that it is a very strong gene. If you one redhead in the > family your likely to have two. Harry inherited is dads black hair > also a dominate gene. We have never found out what happened to Lilly's > parents have we? Could crockshanks be his grandpa or long lost uncle? > > I know that Harry had once refered to his mother as muggle born, but > do we know this as fact? Is it possible that Harry's grandparents were > wizards and have laid low as a protection for Harry or themselves? > > Let me know what you think. I have a feeling that Crockshanks is a > somebody, I just can't figure out who. > > D Hey. I think Crookshanks might be an animagus too. But if he his, I don't think we've been introduced to that character yet (in his human form, that is). At first I thought Crookshanks might be related to the Weasleys. Remember how JKR had written in a distant relative of the Weasleys when she first started writing book four? Then she said she had to take that character out because her presence blew the plot. Maybe Crookshanks is that distant relative? Which would also furthur explain why Crookshanks was trying to get at Wormtail. But then I realized that the only problem with this theory is that Crookshanks is a male, and the Weasley relative had been a female. Now my theory is that Crookshanks is definitely part kneazle (*see HP Lexicon online if you don't know what that is,) and that he once belonged to Mrs. Figg. I think someone planted Crookshanks in that store so that maybe Ron, Harry, or Hermione would by him. I know it's a stretch, but I really have this feeling that Crookshanks is suppose to be there to look after the trio - sort of like an animal form of sneakoscope. Just my two knuts! Brooke ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From susannahlm at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 01:32:21 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:32:21 -0000 Subject: Felinia's Brilliant Fudge Theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59917 Felinia wrote: >Here's my prediction, which does include some vague parts: Fudge is going >to turn out to be a baddie, but through ineptitude and blindness, not any >real deep-seated evil. (Sort of like the appease Hitler crew in Britain in >WWII.) Because of his current position, he's going to make some very bad >decisions, including at least one major one that will have widespread > impact, and cause a very open breach between Hogwarts and the MoM (among >others). Because that kind of character and that sort of misguidedness is > too tough to sustain through three more books as the sole cause de guerre, I >think that Fudge is going to buy it near the end of Book V - and that > because of other circumstances that have been set up all along, the new >Minister of Magic will be...Lucius Malfoy. Oh, Felinia, I cannot *TELL* you how much I love this theory! I **LOVE** IT! ILOVEITILOVEITILOVEITILOVEIT!!!! See, I was figuring that maybe the current "two front war" situation -- Hogwarts between the DE's and the Ministry -- would be resolved in OOP by Fudge being thrown out and Dumbledore's forces prevailing -- in other words, by elimating the problem of the Ministry. But you're suggesting that the "two front war" situation will be resolved by Fudge being killed and Voldemort's forces prevailing at the Ministry -- in other words, by combining the two opposing fronts into one front. It's not a Neville Chamberlain/Winston Churchill parallel; it's a Vichy France/French Resistance parallel. OOH! THEORY! We've all assumed -- at least, I assumed we've all assumed -- that Azkaban will be broken open, and the DE's in there can escape. But what if -- what if -- according to Charis Julia's Saboteur!Snape theory, Azkaban *isn't* broken open. It's a big plot thread, we all think it's gonna be broken open, but it isn't! Major victory for the good guys! However, shortly thereafter, Fudge is killed, Lucius Malfoy takes control of the Ministry, and presides over mass aquittals! Or just announces the abolishment of Azkaban entirely! Or reserves it for those fighting against Voldemort! He could throw Dumbledore in there! He could do all manner of horrible things! Declare martial law! Set -- as per Eb's _Trouble in Paradise_ -- Dementors in the halls of Hogwarts! Install -- as also per Eb's _Trouble in Paradise_ -- Snape as a not-really-puppet-but-thought-to-be-a- puppet new Headmaster at Hogwarts! Instate Avery as one of the new "Aurors!" Oh! The sinister John Williams music as Lucius Malfoy reads out some order from the newly-barricaded Ministry palace! Woo-HOO! This could get so, *so* cool. I swear, if JKR *doesn't* do this -- and I don't think I've ever said this before, at least not on the list -- then I really think someone who can *write* ought to write a fanfic about it. Derannimer, who adores this theory, and who doesn't care if we've only got ten days to use it in -- we have got to get us an acronym. Er. That is, if you don't mind having me on board? From yellows at aol.com Wed Jun 11 01:33:56 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:33:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Azkaban, Dementors, and the Prison system Message-ID: <191.1af29552.2c17e104@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59918 In a message dated 6/10/2003 7:54:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, Melanie writes: > Very interesting question. I would assume that Dementors are a fairly > staple case in most Wizarding prisons. Given that I believe that a Dementor's > Kiss is like the death penalty only worst because it requires that one live in > tourment and torture their entire life. > > As for other wizarding prisons there might be some but I think they are not > very many of them..certainly not as many as muggle prisons have. Just > because it's easier for crimes to be committed in in various countries..it seems > easier to travel in the wizarding world. That in fact in some ways they are > more connected than the muggle world. Perhaps there are other wizarding prisons that disagree with the use of Dementors, and especially the use of the Dementor's Kiss. There are Muggle differences of opinion all over the world regarding the death penalty, and we can see that there are differences of opinion within the British WW regarding the Dementor's Kiss. This leads me to believe that there must be wizarding prisons elsewhere in the world that perhaps carry out "justice" differently. I wonder if this will come up as Voldemort takes the reigns again and our view point stretches out further than Great Britain. Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yellows at aol.com Wed Jun 11 01:41:54 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:41:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Book Six Message-ID: <1e1.ac9d113.2c17e2e2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59919 In a message dated 6/10/2003 8:01:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bill writes: > I do not have the URL, but I have read that JKR is reportedly already > halfway through the first draft of Book 6. > > Bill :::doing a little dance of joy and saying a little prayer at the same time::: Oh, please, let it be true. Let it be true. I waited *so long* for book five to come out. I thought I wasn't going to make it... Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yellows at aol.com Wed Jun 11 01:45:55 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:45:55 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] A poll by post - who has the Marauder's Map? Message-ID: <1df.ac7e868.2c17e3d3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59920 In a message dated 6/10/2003 8:12:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, kristen at sanderson-web.com writes: > Just a little more fun to kill time before the big event. I'm > curious who you think has ended up with the Marauder's Map after the > confessional in GoF. Do you choose: > > a. Dumbledore > b. Harry/Ron/Hermione > c. Snape > d. McGonagal > e. Winky > f. Real!Moody > g. Other...explain :) I choose G -- Voldemort or Wormtail. Explain: Couch!Moody took the map, not only to keep Harry from snooping around, but also to bring a little present to his master. Wormtail may be the one who actually received it, considering Voldemort's condition at the time, but I think he will have handed it over by now and Voldemort is in possession of the map. Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From odilefalaise at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 01:54:21 2003 From: odilefalaise at yahoo.com (Odile Falaise) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Book Six In-Reply-To: <1e1.ac9d113.2c17e2e2@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030611015421.35750.qmail@web13114.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59921 Bill: >>>I do not have the URL, but I have read that JKR is reportedly already halfway through the first draft of Book 6.<<<< Odile (that would be moi): I'm not sure if this is what you are thinking of: http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/world/newsid_2801000/2801769.stm It's from last February, and doesn't say much other than: yes, she's started it; no, she hasn't given it a title yet. Odile, who is very much hoping that we won't have to wait another three years for the next one... From debmclain at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 01:55:14 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:55:14 -0000 Subject: Book Six In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59922 "abhamghp" wrote: > > I know that I'm getting a little ahead of the game, but I'm afraid > > of this anti-climactic let down after I've read book five. Does > > anyone know if JKR has begun writing book six? > "mongo62aa" wrote: > > I do not have the URL, but I have read that JKR is reportedly already > halfway through the first draft of Book 6. Me: I read that she had started writing Book 6. But I like your version better! Yahoo! -Debbie From debmclain at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 02:15:49 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 02:15:49 -0000 Subject: Felinia's Brilliant Fudge Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59923 Felinia wrote: > > >Here's my prediction, which does include some vague parts: Fudge is going > >to turn out to be a baddie, but through ineptitude and blindness, not any > >real deep-seated evil. (Sort of like the appease Hitler crew in Britain in > >WWII.) Because of his current position, he's going to make some very bad > >decisions, including at least one major one that will have widespread > > impact, and cause a very open breach between Hogwarts and the MoM (among > >others). Because that kind of character and that sort of misguidedness is > > too tough to sustain through three more books as the sole cause de guerre, I > >think that Fudge is going to buy it near the end of Book V - and that > > because of other circumstances that have been set up all along, the new > >Minister of Magic will be...Lucius Malfoy. > "derannimer" wrote: > > > Oh, Felinia, I cannot *TELL* you how much I love this theory! > > I **LOVE** IT! ILOVEITILOVEITILOVEITILOVEIT!!!! > > See, I was figuring that maybe the current "two front war" situation -- Hogwarts > between the DE's and the Ministry -- would be resolved in OOP by Fudge being > thrown out and Dumbledore's forces prevailing -- in other words, by elimating the > problem of the Ministry. But you're suggesting that the "two front war" situation will > be resolved by Fudge being killed and Voldemort's forces prevailing at the Ministry -- > in other words, by combining the two opposing fronts into one front. It's not a Neville > Chamberlain/Winston Churchill parallel; it's a Vichy France/French Resistance parallel. Me: Okay, I'm not going to toot my own horn, but what the heck! I also came up with a similar theory quite some time ago, as I'm sure many others have. However, I didn't think it through as much as Felinia did. However, here is something I posted a while ago, but will do again since it solidifies Felinia's theory (which I will call it since she came up with it). In the book "the Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter" by Galadriel Waters (an absolutely, fantastic book! A must-have!), on page 88 it reads: Lucius - ....it coincidentally was the name of Pope St. Lucius I, who became Pope when the exiled St. Cornelius died. WHAT??? Cornelius died and Lucius become the head? Could it really happen in HP? I'm with you Felinia and derannimer. I think this will happen. However....if it does, I see Draco not being redeemed. I mean, his father is MOM - why would he not want to be a DE? Being the series is about choice, I'm starting to think Draco will show what happens when you make the wrong decisions, compared to Harry. I did think he would turn good, but now I'm not so sure. -Debbie who wishes Lucius would help Harry kill LV and redeem himself, but figures the chances of that are 99.99% not happening. :-( From mpachuta at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 00:01:40 2003 From: mpachuta at hotmail.com (Mike Pachuta) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:01:40 +0000 Subject: The hand of Wormtail, the blood of Harry, and that famous gleam... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59924 In my final read of GoF before OotP is released, I came across a small passage that I had not noticed before. I'm sure others have noticed it, and I think I may have overlooked a post that might have addressed this before. If anyone has a link to a thread on this particular topic, let me know.... Here goes: GoF, US Hardcover, p. 695-696: "When Harry told of Wormtail peircing his arm with the dagger, however, Sirius let out a vehement exclamation and Dumbledore stood up so quickly that Harry started. Dumbledore walked around his desk and told Harry to stretch out his arm. Harry showed them both the place where his robes were torn and the cut beneath them." Next comes that famous gleam in Dumbledore's eyes. Now, I know this has been discussed until everyone on the list turned blue in the face BUT, I have a new opinion on this... What if the gleam is not because Voldemort now has "inherited" Wormtail's lifedebt to Harry? What if the gleam is because Voldemort has actually inherited from Harry's blood? Again, the gleam come right after Harry shows off the cut on his arm, not after Harry speaks about Wormtail's sacrifice. Here's my story, and I'm stickin' to it: Voldemort has reincarnated, but he's more flawed than a lot of people know. Many know about the lifedebt, but what happens when someone is reincarnated using flesh from one person and blood from a person the first is indebted to? Voldemort has a lifedebt not only to Harry, but also to himself. Is that possible? Yes - if he gets into a duel or a situation where he has to defend himself from getting killed, he will have to do what is necessary to protect himself. In order to do that, he may get into a situation where his only option is to join the good side. That could potentially be the only way he can save his own life. Again, if this has been discussed before, I apologize. I'm just looking for some feedback, so if someone could provide me with a link to a past thread, that'd be awesome! Thanks, y'all! mikie p - who also thinks that the central conflict in OotP will not involve Voldemort, but rather between those who believe he has risen again and those who don't. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From RonWeasley_is at msn.com Wed Jun 11 00:10:53 2003 From: RonWeasley_is at msn.com (ron_wizardchess_weasley) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:10:53 -0000 Subject: OOP: What is Dumbledore going to tell Harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59925 I just came from the Barnes and Nobles' website and on it they have a passage from Order of the Pheonix : Dumbledore lowered his hands and surveyed Harry through his half- moon glasses. "It is time," he said, "for me to tell you what I should have told you five years ago, Harry. Please sit down. I am going to tell you everything." Maybe he is going to tell him that they are related or that his parents aren't really dead but just in hiding. I can only speculate what "everything" involves, but I am curious to hear what everyone else thinks. Please! let me know. Thanks. Ron_WizardChess_Weasley From eliwamp at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 00:19:47 2003 From: eliwamp at hotmail.com (Chris) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:19:47 -0000 Subject: St. Mungo's and the Longbottoms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59926 > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "blackstripe61" > > wrote: > I based this on the fact that Neville > > > > > I agree there is more to Neville. I think the memory charm is more > > to make him forget *who* he saw. Not sure why though b/c being a > > baby he would not have been able to verbalize it, but maybe in the > WW > > they can extract information from babies another way. > > Does it say what year the attack on the Longbottoms happend. It was > after Voldermorts fall wasn't it? So Neville may have been a toddler > or possibly even preschooler. So he would be to talk then. Even my > 19 month old daughter can tell how her day went (although somewhat > cryptically: Grandma walk houses puppy woof woof flower bunny. > Translation: I went on walk with grandma. I saw houses, a dog that > was barking, flowers and a bunny.) She also repeats back anything > that's said to her (my brother loves to give her big words like > photosynthesis, which she promptly repeats back to him). > > Anyways, Neville might have been old enough that he could have > remembered either--a) witnessing his parents tortured or b)Neville > knows some knowledge (name, spell, place) that needs to be kept > secret. I checked GOF and no they don't name a specific time when the Longbottoms were tortured. Only that it was after Voldemort's fall from power, and just when everyone was beginning to feel safe again. Perhaps 6 months to a year? Neville being roughly 2 should have been able to give at least a cryptic description. Although it seems the culprits were caught fairly quickly despite Neville's memory charm. Possibly the MOM used it on him to keep the memories form being overwhelming. Chris M. From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Jun 11 00:20:15 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:20:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trip to Egypt? References: Message-ID: <3EE675BF.5050108@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59927 Vicky Gwosdz wrote: > > Coming back to the expensive or not so expensive trip to Egypt to > visit Bill by the Weasleys in the summer before year 3. > > While rereading CoS (as anyone here in anticipation for book 5) I > noticed that the Weasleys also visited Bill during the Chistmas break > and even intended to bring at least some of the kids. It says in the > book (no exact quote) that "Fred and George decided to stay at > Hogwarts for the Christmas break instead of joining their parents in > visiting Bill in Egypt". > > Now, if the trip was that expensive that they could only do it > because of the money they won, how did they manage to visit him over > Christmas and originally plan to bring the twins as well? > > Any thoughts? > > How can a trip be expensive for a family of wizards who could get there by magical means and have no need for plane tickets. hotels or anything else provided magically?? Jazmyn From cristina_angelo at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 00:38:57 2003 From: cristina_angelo at yahoo.com (Cristina Rebelo Angelo) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 02:38:57 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A poll by post - who has the Marauder's Map? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59928 Definitely Dumbledore. He does have to have something nice to give Harry for Xmas, no?.... ************************** Cristina Rebelo ngelo Any attached file not mentioned in the body of the message may be a virus; if present, delete it for the sake of your computer, and inform the sender. Thank you. "Quand on n'a que l'amour/ Pour tracer un chemin/ Et forcer le destin/ A chaque carrefour Quand on n'a que l'amour/ Pour parler aux canons/ Et rien qu'une chanson/ Pour coinvancre un tambour Alors sans avoir rien/ Que la force d'aimer/ Nous aurons dans nos mains/ Amis le monde entier" J.Brel 1956 ICQ 106.255.886 HPGCv1 a31 e++ x+ -- z+++ A27 Rhp HPa S+++ Mo HaP++ HG++ RW++ AD++ RH+++ VK& NhN& SB& DM--- O++ F sfD From RonWeasley_is at msn.com Wed Jun 11 00:41:40 2003 From: RonWeasley_is at msn.com (ron_wizardchess_weasley) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:41:40 -0000 Subject: Is Crookshanks just a cat? Hmmmm... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59929 Personally, I'd be willing to bet all of Fred and George's joke shop money that Crookshanks is really MRS. Figg!! It would make sense. Dumbledore eludes to the fact that MRS. Figg is a witch and that Harry has been protected on Privet Dr. from the day he arrived. (and MRS. Figg coincidentaly happens to live only a couple houses down from the Dursleys and even babysits Harry from time to time) Also she seems to love cats, (she has quite a few) so wouldn't it make sense that if she were a Animagus that she would be a cat? Just a theory! Let me know if you agree or disagree. Thanks. Ron_WizardChess_Weasley From dkratzer at wownet.com Wed Jun 11 01:23:10 2003 From: dkratzer at wownet.com (Dan) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:23:10 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snapes assignment References: <001d01c32f9c$5d6e4fe0$1400a8c0@danielbhfl37cx> Message-ID: <000d01c32fb8$05db1e40$1400a8c0@danielbhfl37cx> No: HPFGUIDX 59930 Danger Dan wrote: > Isn't Crouch Jr. still alive? He got Kissed (GoF, "The Parting of Ways"), but that just leaves him Zombie!Crouch Jr., a freaky little shell, stumbling about (if at all)... > > That means Crouch Jr. *can* be used for polyjuice (yippee!). Me: You're right. I completely forgot that the kiss only takes the persons soul so yes, Zombie!Crouch Jr. would still be usable for the Polyjuice. Thanks for the correction. As much as Snape is one of my not so favorite chars, I'd hate to see him go. "Dan" From helen at odegard.com Wed Jun 11 02:45:07 2003 From: helen at odegard.com (Helen R. Granberry) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:45:07 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Proud Mama Trevor! (wasRe: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000b01c32fc3$789fe9a0$6401a8c0@helenw1> No: HPFGUIDX 59931 Ok, very weird. I hear this same idea two times in one day! I'm interested why exactly you came up with it. After all what reason would Trevor be needed to give birth to basilisk. After all I hardly see Neville doing it. Serena LOL!! I've been saying this for months, and everyone looks at me like I am nuts. In Fantastic Beasts, it says that a Basilisk is born by hatching a hen's egg under a toad. Trevor was seen lurking around the toilets in PS/SS... Visiting his baby perhaps? Also, JKR, when asked about Trevor said that he was 'still lurking around'. There is something up with that toad! Helen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 02:57:06 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 02:57:06 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59932 Cindy C wrote: > > > Now that June 21 is just around the corner (Wow! -- We'll be reading OoP next weekend!), maybe it's time to get *serious* here. No more having a whole bunch of vague predictions to your name. Maybe it's time for a gut-check -- time for anyone who's willing to stand on just one OoP prediction to step forward. > > > Now me (Laura): All you people trying to kill off Lupin are giving me nightmares!!! I agree, he is more than likely to die before the end of Book 7, but I don't want to think about it. The thing I don't agree with is that Lupin will commit suicide. I mean, sure, the guy's had a really rough life, but I honestly don't see that kind of behavior built into him. He seems to be brave and noble and I just can't see him comitting suicide because things get tough. Draco, sure. Lupin, no. On to my prediction- I personally avidly support the idea that Snape was at the Potter's on the night Lily and James were killed, and I predict that this will be presented as fact in OOP. The only real canon evidence I have to support this is the dream Harry has his first night as Hogwarts, in which he sees Snape's face along with Voldemort's laugh, leading me to believe that he has somehow connected them in his head. So my prediction is that, during the course of telling everything (thinking about that passage is making me loose sleep, I swear...), Dumbledore will reveal that Snape was at the Potter's house on that infamous night, either trying to warn the Potters or reinforce some side or another of his double agent role. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. ;-) (until 2 weeks from now, when I'll probably be proven wrong...) One other mini-thing, I think we're going to find out what's so cool about socks. But maybe I just think that because I'm personally dying to know. -Laura From yellows at aol.com Wed Jun 11 03:11:11 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:11:11 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Crookshanks just a cat? Hmmmm... Message-ID: <151.203a741e.2c17f7cf@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59933 In a message dated 6/10/2003 10:55:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, Ron_WizardChess_Weasley writes: > Personally, I'd be willing to bet all of Fred and George's joke shop > money that Crookshanks is really MRS. Figg!! I agree with you. Somehow, I can't look at Crookshanks as a regular pet, because he has such a clearly-defined personality and understanding of things around him that he seems a bit human. In a creepy kind of way. :) I don't really like Crookshanks all that much. He gives me the willies. But, honestly, it will drive me crazy if Crookshanks is really a person in disguise, as much as it will make sense for him to be Mrs. Figg (except for the gender problem -- that should be a clue that he might *not* be Mrs. Figg). We've done the animagus/transfiguration thing so many times already, especially with Ron's pet Scabbers. I think it will be kind of silly for both Ron and Hermione to have pets who are not what they appear, unless JKR wants to put forth the possibility that *no* pets are what they appear. In that case, Trevor, Hedwig, Pig, and everyone else's pet at Hogwarts must hold some special secret. Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ivanova at idcnet.com Wed Jun 11 03:42:34 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:42:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius Black at Godrics Hollow References: <035901c32f8b$16ee9540$0542983e@rcomputer> Message-ID: <004201c32fcb$7f83b370$43ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 59934 > Karen wrote: > > POA UK P153 Hagrid states that he was the one to rescue Harry from > > the ruins of the Potter family home (this we already knew from > > PS/SS), but what I don't understand is - How could Sirius Black have > > turned up 'just' after Voldemoarts attack if he, SB, wasn't the > > POtters secret keeper. > > > > It wouldn't make sense to have someone as the secret keeper, if every > > one of their other friends knew where to find them! Would it?? > > Hi, Karen, and welcome to the group. You are right, it wouldn't. And for > the while the Fidelius Charm worked, I think even Sirius sort of forgot > temporally where they lived. But when Pettigrew revealed the secret to > Voldemort, the charm ceased to work, and everyone instantly knew where the > Potters lived. Sirius knew, too, and that only could mean that the worst > happened, so he hastened to Godric's Hollow. Alas, he was too late... > Hope hat helps, > Maria I agree with the statements I have been reading that say that everyone forgot where the Potters lived until Peter divulged the secret to Voldemort. Here's my question about that night, though. Okay, so everyone forgot where they lived. Then Peter told Voldemort the secret, and V went to their house and made WW history. Why didn't anyone else show up to try to stop this? I can actually understand why Sirius (or anyone else, for that matter) didn't immediately. It's not like they would automatically realize they now know once again where the Potters are. But Sirius went to check on Peter at Peter's hiding place and realized he wasn't there. This event set off warning bells in his mind. I would think it is as he discovers Peter missing and thinks on it while at Peter's hiding place that he realizes he now remembers where the Potters are. Sirius is a fully-trained wizard and was known to be one of the brightest of his year, if not his generation. I find it hard to believe he does not know how to Apparate. What I don't understand is why he didn't just Apparate right there instead of flying there by motorcycle. Or, if he wanted reinforcements, call someone (like DD) up on the floo network or shoot off a quick owl before Apparating there. I would think he should Apparate immediately, though, because maybe V hasn't had a chance to get there yet and he could warn the Potters their cover was blown and try to get them out of there while there was still time. If time ran out, at least he could've fought with James and maybe bought Lily enough time to get out of there with Harry. It just bothers me that these people would know where the Potters would live, but not once in PS/SS do we here of anyone Apparating to the Potters' house. Now that I think of it, how did Hagrid get there? He beat Sirius, and he supposedly can't Apparate because he didn't even make it all the way through school. He sure didn't get there by flying motorcycle. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Wed Jun 11 03:47:41 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:47:41 EDT Subject: What other curse scar? Message-ID: <17a.1c01e9e7.2c18005d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59935 In a message dated 6/10/03 10:38:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, maryblue67 at yahoo.com writes: > On a completely different topic, Kristel insisted: > > > > danielle: > Correction, the line is :You'll forgive me, > Dumbledore, but I've never heard of a curse scar > acting as an alrm bell before....." > you've forgot one word, there are more than one curse > scars I'm sure, but in this reference Fudge is > referring to in general. > > > me : > > No, sorry, my copy hasn't got "never" in it. It really says : > "You'll forgive > me, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse scar > acting as an alarm bell before..." > > Now Me, Maria: > > I think it is correct without the "never". I understand it as a > sarcasm on Fudge's side. He is exagerating the affirmation comparing > it with an alarm, something ridiculous that reinforces the sarcasm > tone that i always read in that sentence. > > Maria > Actually, my line goes "You'll forgive me Dumbledore, but I've never heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm bell before ..." I have the US Hardback with the numbers 10 9 8 7 (so is that 7th edition?). I think it's another one of those "ancestor v. descendant" deliberate error things. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ivanova at idcnet.com Wed Jun 11 04:06:54 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:06:54 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction References: Message-ID: <004701c32fce$e5611860$43ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 59936 Laura wrote: > On to my prediction- > > I personally avidly support the idea that Snape was at the Potter's > on the night Lily and James were killed, and I predict that this will > be presented as fact in OOP. The only real canon evidence I have to > support this is the dream Harry has his first night as Hogwarts, in > which he sees Snape's face along with Voldemort's laugh, leading me > to believe that he has somehow connected them in his head. So my > prediction is that, during the course of telling everything (thinking > about that passage is making me loose sleep, I swear...), Dumbledore > will reveal that Snape was at the Potter's house on that infamous > night, either trying to warn the Potters or reinforce some side or > another of his double agent role. My take on the Snape/Voldemort connection in this dream. This dream directly followed the Welcoming Feast at the beginning of the year. During that feast, Harry feels pains in his scar just when Snape shoots him his famous look of pure hatred (for the first time, at that). When this happened to Harry, he didn't know Snape at all, and even had to ask Percy who he was. Harry is actually making a first impression of Snape, a very unfavorable one. Snape is that ugly-looking teacher who hates him for some reason and sets his scar to hurting. Harry has also been told that his scar was caused by Voldemort. Harry goes to sleep that night. One interpretation I have had of that dream is that it's not actually precognitive. Dreams have a way of putting together disjointed fragments of thoughts. All of these things did bother him, so they surface in dreams. I don't feel like going through the dream scene by scene (maybe I will tomorrow when I have more time and am more awake), but one could argue that he associates Snape with Voldemort simply because of his first impression of Snape. On some level, he might even already believe the pains in his scar came from Snape since Snape was the one glaring at him. Anyway, the main thrust of this post was to point out another reason why Harry might have connected Snape with V's high, cold laugh. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From rstephens at northwestern.edu Wed Jun 11 04:25:36 2003 From: rstephens at northwestern.edu (rachelbeth007) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 04:25:36 -0000 Subject: Response to prediction about Snape, scar, dream In-Reply-To: <004701c32fce$e5611860$43ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59937 > My take on the Snape/Voldemort connection in this dream. This dream > directly followed the Welcoming Feast at the beginning of the year. During > that feast, Harry feels pains in his scar just when Snape shoots him his > famous look of pure hatred (for the first time, at that). When this > happened to Harry, he didn't know Snape at all, and even had to ask Percy > who he was. Harry is actually making a first impression of Snape, a very > unfavorable one. Snape is that ugly-looking teacher who hates him for some > reason and sets his scar to hurting. Harry has also been told that his scar > was caused by Voldemort. > Ok, I don't have my books right now, but I believe this to be true (with some help from the movie). Actually, the *real* reason Harry's scar hurts is because Professor Quirrell's back is to Harry as he talks to Snape. Of course, no one picks up on this the first time they read PS/SS, because we're led to believe Snape is evil. This is exactly what happens in the first movie (Snape stares, we also see the back of Quirrell's turban, scar hurts). So the pain is really caused by Voldemort's presence under the turban. Maybe Voldemort wasn't under the turban yet, so I apologize for not having canon to back me up. Please correct me if I'm wrong! Rachel From ivanova at idcnet.com Wed Jun 11 04:39:52 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:39:52 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Response to prediction about Snape, scar, dream References: Message-ID: <007901c32fd3$807fa600$43ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 59938 Kelly wrote: > > > My take on the Snape/Voldemort connection in this dream. This dream > > directly followed the Welcoming Feast at the beginning of the year. During > > that feast, Harry feels pains in his scar just when Snape shoots him his > > famous look of pure hatred (for the first time, at that). When this > > happened to Harry, he didn't know Snape at all, and even had to ask Percy > > who he was. Harry is actually making a first impression of Snape, a very > > unfavorable one. Snape is that ugly-looking teacher who hates him for > some > > reason and sets his scar to hurting. Harry has also been told that his scar > > was caused by Voldemort. > > > Rachel continued: > Ok, I don't have my books right now, but I believe this to be true (with some > help from the movie). > > Actually, the *real* reason Harry's scar hurts is because Professor Quirrell's > back is to Harry as he talks to Snape. Of course, no one picks up on this the > first time they read PS/SS, because we're led to believe Snape is evil. This is > exactly what happens in the first movie (Snape stares, we also see the back of > Quirrell's turban, scar hurts). So the pain is really caused by Voldemort's > presence under the turban. Maybe Voldemort wasn't under the turban yet, so > I apologize for not having canon to back me up. Please correct me if I'm > wrong! Yes, you are right, it is because Voldemort is underneath Quirrell's turban. We all knew this the second time we read PS/SS. However, we are talking about what is going on in Harry's head. Harry is the one making the connection between Snape and the laugh. As I said last post, I really want to look at this when I'm more awake (almost done with email and then bed for me), but Quirrell's turban does enter into Harry's dream as well. In the beginning of the dream, Harry dreams that the turban is squeezing his head tighter and tighter while telling him he needs to switch to Slytherin immediately, it is his destiny. Somewhere in this dream, he sees Draco's face, which turns into Snape's, which turns into the flash of green light he remembers from that fateful night, accompanied by the laugh. So maybe Harry does think it's Snape that caused the pain, but something else is trying to tell him that it has something to do with Quirrell, the turban, and the giver of the scar. If looked at in this light, the question would be: why did Draco show up in the dream at all? Simply because Harry associates Draco with Slytherin, and he is being told he needs to transfer to Slytherin? Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 04:45:48 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 04:45:48 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Felinia's Brilliant Fudge Theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59939 Derannimer: Well, who can resist being called "brilliant"? ;-) Just playing in the sandbox with the other kiddies. Mostly, it's "what I'd do" - but I'm not JKR. :-) to comment further: >Felinia wrote: > > >Here's my prediction, which does include some vague parts: Fudge is going > >to turn out to be a baddie, but through ineptitude and blindness, not >any > >real deep-seated evil. (Sort of like the appease Hitler crew in Britain >in > >WWII.) Because of his current position, he's going to make some very bad > >decisions, including at least one major one that will have widespread > > impact, and cause a very open breach between Hogwarts and the MoM (among > >others). Because that kind of character and that sort of misguidedness >is > > too tough to sustain through three more books as the sole cause de >guerre, I > >think that Fudge is going to buy it near the end of Book V - and that > > because of other circumstances that have been set up all along, the new > >Minister of Magic will be...Lucius Malfoy. > > > >Oh, Felinia, I cannot *TELL* you how much I love this theory! > >I **LOVE** IT! ILOVEITILOVEITILOVEITILOVEIT!!!! > >See, I was figuring that maybe the current "two front war" situation -- >Hogwarts >between the DE's and the Ministry -- would be resolved in OOP by Fudge >being >thrown out and Dumbledore's forces prevailing -- in other words, by >elimating the >problem of the Ministry. But you're suggesting that the "two front war" >situation will >be resolved by Fudge being killed and Voldemort's forces prevailing at the >Ministry -- >in other words, by combining the two opposing fronts into one front. It's >not a Neville >Chamberlain/Winston Churchill parallel; it's a Vichy France/French >Resistance parallel. > Neville Chamberlain! Thank you! I thought that was the name earlier today, but thought I might also be mixing up Neville Longbottom and a story I'd just read about Richard Chamberlain and didn't want to make a fool out of myself by inventing a prime minister. But yes, I was thinking of Neville Chamberlain/ Vichy France. A two-front war situation *is* possible - but I think that the way things are shaping up,*something* is gong to happen to make the MoM worse before it gets better. I keep thinking in terms of "three more books to go, and the dangers have to escalate". Also, the "props" that Harry has had all along - his mother's lovespell protection, etc. - are getting knocked out from under him one by one with each confrontation. The ultimate crisis is going to have to be *very* terrible indeed or it will be anticlimactic. >OOH! THEORY! > >We've all assumed -- at least, I assumed we've all assumed -- that Azkaban >will be >broken open, and the DE's in there can escape. But what if -- what if -- >according to >Charis Julia's Saboteur!Snape theory, Azkaban *isn't* broken open. It's a >big plot >thread, we all think it's gonna be broken open, but it isn't! Major victory >for the good >guys! However, shortly thereafter, Fudge is killed, Lucius Malfoy takes >control of the >Ministry, and presides over mass aquittals! Or just announces the >abolishment of >Azkaban entirely! Or reserves it for those fighting against Voldemort! He >could throw >Dumbledore in there! > I'm not familiar with the theory you cited - I confess to not having followed them all - but I've never thought Azkaban would be broken open. I think Azkaban has wound up doing more harm than good to the WW overall, and that ultimately it's going to be destroyed by the good guys - possibly in assaulting it to take it back and release good people - under the theory that yes, there needs to be strong magic to contain evil wizards - but it hasn't worked so well so far for its intended purpose, and has wound up imprisoning the wrong people sometimes. >He could do all manner of horrible things! Declare martial law! Set -- as >per Eb's >_Trouble in Paradise_ -- Dementors in the halls of Hogwarts! Install -- as >also per >Eb's _Trouble in Paradise_ -- Snape as a >not-really-puppet-but-thought-to-be-a- >puppet new Headmaster at Hogwarts! Instate Avery as one of the new >"Aurors!" Oh! >The sinister John Williams music as Lucius Malfoy reads out some order from >the >newly-barricaded Ministry palace! > >Woo-HOO! > >This could get so, *so* cool. I swear, if JKR *doesn't* do this -- and I >don't think I've >ever said this before, at least not on the list -- then I really think >someone who can >*write* ought to write a fanfic about it. > That would be interesting! And you're right, there are all kinds of directions one coudl go with it that don't necessitate following all of my threads through to conclusion. > > >Derannimer, who adores this theory, and who doesn't care if we've only got >ten days >to use it in -- we have got to get us an acronym. Er. That is, if you don't >mind having >me on board? > Fine with me! :-) The "FAB" theory? "Fudge as Baddie"? "FABLIC"? Fudge as Baddie, Lucius in Control? I'm open to suggestions. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 05:01:35 2003 From: honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com (Sabrina Mergner) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 07:01:35 +0200 Subject: best lines in the books? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59940 My personla favourites are the ones that show just what makes Harry Harry. Here they come: 'He went to have a look. The tub was full of what looked like dirty rags swimming in gray water. "What's this?" he asked Aunt Petunia. Her lips tightened as they always did if he dared to ask a question. "Your new school uniform," she said. Harry looked in the bowl again. "Oh," he said, "I didn't realize it had to be so wet."' (p. 33, SSpb) - just now with the discussion of Ron And The Dress Robes >From Hell, can you see the difference? '"He is," said the first twin. "Aren't you?" he added to Harry. "What?" said Harry. "Harry Potter," chorused the twins." "Oh, him," said Harry. "I mean, yes, I am."' (p. 95, SSpb) - he is in the wizarding world barely five minutes and already thinks there is a difference between the famous Harry Potter and him. '"Yeh could've died!" sobbed Hagrid. "An' don' say the name!" "VOLDEMORT!" Harry bellowed, and Hagrid was so shocked, he stopped crying.' (p. 303, SSpb) - makes me laugh every time I imagine small Harry Potter *bellowing* at large Hagrid who is so shocked he looks like the Hogwarts Express ran him over. Also brilliantly shows Harry's attitude towards Voldemort. '"You mean you're running away?" said Harry diabelievingly. "After all the stuff you did in your books-" "Books can be misleading," said Lockhart delicately. "You wrote them!" Harry shouted.' (p. 297, CoS USpb) - this is so Harry. And apart from when he blew up Aunt Marge and attacked Sirius the only time I can remember him being described as absolutely spitting with rage and even forcing a teacher at wandpoint. Just shows that for Harry it is incomprehensible that somebody who is supposedly qualified for the job - and even if he isn't - doesn't help somebody in need even if it threatens his own life. Sabrina Sirius/Harry site: www.geocities.com/canismajorarchive/intro.html http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LupinxHarry _________________________________________________________________ MSN Groups & Chat - Freunde finden - leicht gemacht http://groups.msn.com/people/ From mmemalkin at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 05:04:16 2003 From: mmemalkin at yahoo.com (mmemalkin) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 05:04:16 -0000 Subject: best lines in the book? In-Reply-To: <005c01c32ed8$27552150$4a94253e@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59941 > Rod Chester wrote: snip...."I'm looking for the best sentences >in the Harry Potter series.... Mme Malkin (me): "But from that moment on, Hermione Granger became their friend. There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other, and knocking out a twelve-foot mountain troll is one of them." (PS/SS very end of Chapt. 10; p 179 US ppbk) :-P ~Diane Eschewing obfuscation From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Wed Jun 11 05:04:13 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:04:13 EDT Subject: OOP: What's the conflict? Message-ID: <1d7.b194d89.2c18124d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59942 In a message dated 6/10/03 10:52:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mpachuta at hotmail.com writes: > mikie p - who also thinks that the central conflict in OotP will not > involve > Voldemort, but rather between those who believe he has risen again and those > > who don't. I wasn't sure if this needed OOP or not, so I put one just to be safe! I like mikie p's idea of who the conflict will be between. It's going to be very hard for *anyone*, even Dumbledore, to convince the masses that the Dark Lord has risen again. He's going to kill alot of people and sabotage alot of things before anyone will believe it. When the WW sees the Dark Mark at the QWC, they jump at the conclusion that it's the Dark Lord. The masses will naturally think something is up, but it will be hard to convince them the Dark Lord is really back if the Minister of Magic himself is telling everyone that nothing like that has happened. Who are they more likely to believe the Minister of Magic or Dumbledore? It all depends on who has the proof. Denial is a very powerful emotion, and people will do anything to protect what they believe is the truth. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ --Who is devastated that she cannot get her copy of OoP until 22 June because she will be in NYC! --And still has thoughts about Evil!Hermione. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coolksat at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 03:24:38 2003 From: coolksat at yahoo.com (Cora) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:24:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: new characters in OOTP In-Reply-To: <1150.192.168.3.254.1055258651.squirrel@www.cynjut.net> Message-ID: <20030611032438.27270.qmail@web20506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59943 --- David Burgess wrote: > > > > > > Cindy C. listed what could be the "new" characters > in OotP: > >> Arabella Figg > >> Mundungus Fletcher > >> Mrs. Longbottom > >> Mrs. Longbottom > >> Dedalus Diddle > >> Mr. Lestrange > >> Real Moody > >> > >> Gah! I'm stuck. Who else could there be?>> I think one of the new characters might be Susan Bones. In the first book, she was mentioned as one of the students being sorted. Even in the movie, they took pains to mention her name in the sorting...therefore, she must be important later in the series. Plus, her parents were some of the people who were killed by Voldemort. Cora __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From rldenton at netzero.net Wed Jun 11 00:47:21 2003 From: rldenton at netzero.net (Ramona Denton) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:47:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] best lines in the book? Message-ID: <000601c32fb3$043a7fe0$a3e91fcc@NetZeroUser> No: HPFGUIDX 59944 Rod Chester, The Courier-Mail wrote: <> Here are two of my favorites for your consideration: 1) In GOF U.S. version, page 46, when the Weaselys have just broken through the Dursley's fireplace... "They run off eckeltricity, do they?" he [Mr. Weasely] said knowledgeably. "Ah yes, I can see the plugs. I collect plugs," he added to Uncle Vernon. "And batteries. Got a very large collection of batteries. My wife thinks I'm mad, but there you are." I cannot read the last line without laughing out load. "My wife thinks I'm mad, but there you are." 2) In SS U.S. version, page 148, when Harry flies for the first time... I find the description, well, sort of UPLIFTING... He [Harry] mounted the broom and kicked hard against the ground and up, up he soared; air rushed through his hair, and his robes whipped out behind him -- and in a rush of fierce joy he realized he'd found something he could do without being taught -- this was easy, this was WONDERFUL. Good luck writing your article! First-time-poster Ramona-From-Pomona [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tlambs1138 at charter.net Wed Jun 11 04:17:26 2003 From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:17:26 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] One thing that probably _won't_ happen in OOTP References: <1055206298.3716.8584.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <012b01c32fd0$60a53a50$79287144@Samantha> No: HPFGUIDX 59945 One thing that probably won't happen in OOTP is an attack on 4 Privet Drive by a Masque of Deatheathers (how's that for a collective noun?), and Petunia Dursley discovering her Inner Carrie (i.e., she's not a Squib after all, not when her Dudley is being attacked!) and doing Amusing Things with the Cutlery. But it would be fun anyway. Actual predictions: Sirius Black and Snape will have to save each other's lives, and hate doing it. But their relationship will simmer down into the occasional insult ("Looking for a rare blood type today, Snape? Always heard you were a gourmet..." and "Fetch! You might as well do _something_ useful..."). Jean Lamb, tlambs1138 at charter.net "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you are crunchy and good with lemon drops." From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 04:18:53 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 04:18:53 -0000 Subject: Names in goblet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59946 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: << Easy to see that if you were a programmer, you would be doing a lot of re-programming (no offense intended).... A good programer builds flexibility into his program...I'm not trying to tell you what IS, but trying to find a likely explanation for what we already know happened. It's pointless to say 'it can't be that way' because it is that way. What needs to be asked and answered is, 'how can it be that way?'...>>> The Sergeant Majorette (stung, and weeping) sniffs: Not too much flexibility -- that's a lot of spaghetti for a 'rough- hewn wooden goblet'. And then we come to the true genius of Joanne Kathleen Rowling: (cue the Beatles "We're Harry Potter's loony grown-up fans/We're into this stuff way too much/We really ought to do some other things/Get jobs and feed the kids and such...") We don't 'already know what happened', because it didn't happen. She made it all up, ok? While we were obsessing and lurking and speculating, JKR went out and got a life, got married, got pregnant and had a baby. --Sorry. had to get that buzzkill rant out of my system. I feel better now. But I have to say I'm beginning to think that a lot of the speculation (some of the most interesting, in fact) that we do here is predicated on the theory that the Potterverse is some sort of alternate universe. JKR, however, has not so much created a universe as codified it. She takes a crystal clear snapshot of British life and shifts the light source the very tiniest bit so that it all *looks* weird, but never actually *becomes* weird. Her reference, I think, is not the Star Wars / mythological / Arthurian type of world, but a Tom Brown's School Days / Charles Dickens / Brittania-rules- the-waves sort of place. An author writing in The New York Times explains this eloquently: "...the most visible character going through Harry Potter's training even now is Harry Windsor". She isn't writing about wizarding and magic, she is writing coming-of-age adventure stories about some kids who go to wizard school. I still think the lone-gunman, I mean fourth-school theory is a lapse; I think many things done by magic would be more quickly done in a more conventional way (for gosh sakes, Ron, just rip the stupid lace off!). But then I think, it's not the author's fault that I'm not 10 years old, and it's more fun her way. I therefore do solemnly swear, and challenge others to so vow as well, to accept all parsimony, treachery, meanness and error; all Weasleys, Potters, teachers, death eaters and Slytherins; all shape shifters and dead people; all toads, cats, rats and kneazles to be whatever they are as I encounter them; to be surprised, delighted and/or entertained when they are revealed to be something different; weep when they die, rejoice when they reproduce, and not begin to speculate on Book VI until Christmas, when, if no publication date is announced, I will take a cannonball leap into a roiling sea of convoluted mythologizing, improbable backstories and really gross slash pairings (whoever wrote that Snape/Hagrid scene will serve their detention washing altar linens for a month!) ...but I'll keep my inner Hermione safely waiting. --JDR From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 05:22:45 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 05:22:45 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Arthurian Legand & HP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59947 Rhianyn the Cat wrote: >Well, now, if we plugged Lily into the Gwenhyfar role opposite, say >Narcissa >Malfoy wouldn't that set the cat amongst the canarys? Lily, of course, is >a >hinge upon much, if not all turns and as yet we can only speculate about >her. >But I've wondered since the World Quidditch Cup why we even meet Narcissa >if >she's not going to come into some prominences later. There really aren't >many >characters that we "meet" rather than just see in passing that don't come >back >in more prominence at a later date. JKR is amazingly thrifty that way and >to >me it adds much to the fun of watching things unfold. > While the exact ARthurian parallel is a bit of a stretch for me, I find myself thinking of Narcissa vis a vis a more recent character: Persephone in "Matrix Reloaded". The somewhat bored, distant, increasingly pissed off trophy wife. Generally, women don't get more and more used to a situation (as their opposite male numbers sometimes think): they get more and more fed up until they explode. :-) Even though we see little of Narcissa, it doesn't seem to me that it was a love match between the Malfoys - more the correct bloodlines. And maybe Lucius is playing with so much fire and doing so many things that are going to ruin them that eventually Narcissa gets fed up enough to provide some valuable information and "go over" to the side of good and truth - and maybe that will prove to be the straw that breaks Draco's back, ultimately. Just a thought, because I agree that Narcissa wasn't introduced entirely gratuitiously. JKR *has* shown that she can mention something that takes a couple of books to reveal the significance of. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From yswahl at stis.net Wed Jun 11 04:40:42 2003 From: yswahl at stis.net (yale sam wahl) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:40:42 -0400 Subject: Biggest suprise in Book 5 ? Message-ID: <001501c32fd3$c1a61d80$89cafea9@yale> No: HPFGUIDX 59948 While many HPFans are trying to figure out who dies in Book 5, the big story may prove to be the one who is no longer an active part of the trio at the close of Book 5. As long as the original trio is intact, the other Griffendor characters will always be relegated to minor roles and will not have a chance to develop - particularly Neville or Ginny.I think that Hermione is the most likely candidate to leave the trio for the following reasons - 1) Hermione has once before left the conscious world of the actively living when she was petrified in CoS, 2) Hermione was also traveling in time during PoA when she was taking 2 classes at once as well as when she helped save Sirius, thus making her eventual return more explainable than Ron or Harry, 3) Hermione went to the Yule Ball with Viktor Krum, who is a favorite student of Karkaroff, the Death Eater who fled Voldemort. If she becomes further involved with Krum or is otherwise lured to Durmstrang, she may be imprisoned or otherwise placed in jeopardy while away from Hogwarts and her friends, 4) Hermoine has become involved in Elf rights, and though elves may seem exploitable and weak, they can clearly harness significant power as Dobby demonstrated to Lucius Malfoy at the end of CoS. We have already heard about the emergence of a not so friendly and cuddly elf in Book 5, and we do not know what an elf under the influence is capable of, and 5) Hermione is named after the queen in Shakespeare's A Winter's Tale. In this play Hermione is assumed dead for 17 years and comes back to life after being preserved as a statue. So although, there will be a death in Book 5, that death may not be what creates the biggest buzz in the Potter universe. Thankfully, just 10 more days ..................... Samnanya From natmichaels at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 00:37:05 2003 From: natmichaels at hotmail.com (lorien_eve) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:37:05 -0000 Subject: Trip to Egypt? / What other curse scar? In-Reply-To: <20030610143745.4105.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59949 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maria wrote: > danielle: > Correction, the line is :You'll forgive me, > Dumbledore, but I've never heard of a curse scar > acting as an alrm bell before....." > you've forgot one word, there are more than one curse > scars I'm sure, but in this reference Fudge is > referring to in general. > > > me : > > No, sorry, my copy hasn't got "never" in it. It really says : > "You'll forgive > me, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse scar > acting as an alarm bell before..." > > Now Me, Maria: > > I think it is correct without the "never". I understand it as a > sarcasm on Fudge's side. He is exagerating the affirmation comparing > it with an alarm, something ridiculous that reinforces the sarcasm > tone that i always read in that sentence. > > Maria > > ===== > Maryblue > ---------------------------------------------------------- > "Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling > in love" - Eistein > Just to put my two cents in, my book has "never" in there. It's a US printing, but I don't know which edition. It's a later copy, I know, so maybe it was a typo and was corrected by the time this edition was published. Lorien_Eve > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). > http://calendar.yahoo.com From ultimatesen at aol.com Wed Jun 11 05:40:11 2003 From: ultimatesen at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 05:40:11 -0000 Subject: best lines in the books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59950 I don't have the specific line because I don't have the book in front of me, but I like the "I like a bit of breeze around my privates" line. =o) Sen From Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 05:42:06 2003 From: Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com (Rosebeth C.) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:42:06 -0700 Subject: James' use of AK? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59951 >From: "Tom Wall" > >I, Tom, wrote previously: > > After all, Dumbledore confirms in PoA that James likely would have > > spared Pettigrew the same way Harry did. So, I interpret this as an > > indication of James' character - he *could* have killed, but > > probably wouldn't have wanted to. > >Rosebeth replied: >Tom, while I agree with quite a bit of your post I have to disagree >with the idea that James wouldn't use the AK on LV. There has been a >lot of discussion lately about a mothers love for her child. Why not >the same for a father's love? > >I (Tom) respond: >I see where you're coming from. Please, let me clarify, and we'll see >if we agree. ;-) Me again (Rosebeth): I believe there is more here that we agree on then we disagree on. > >I wasn't trying to dispute James' love for Harry and Lily I was >trying to ponder more specifically whether or not a) James would be >willing to kill for them (which I think he would be willing to do,) >and b) whether or not that would be his first choice for attack. > >On the question of (b,) I'm not sure that the first thing James would >try to do would be to use an Unforgivable Curse. Rather, I think >that, as you kind of suggest in the next part of your reply, that >James would be more likely to use an Unforgivable as a matter of last >choice, in a gunfight-style situation. > > >On that note, Rosebeth also wrote: >It's my belief that James is going to try to whatever he can to save >them, and if that means an Unforgivable Curse, then so be it. Like a >gunfight in the old west LV was just faster. > >Tom replies: >Yeah, I know what you mean. > >I have no doubt that in the last resort, his family on the line, >James would probably have no issues using an Unforgivable Curse on >the Voldemort. I wasn't trying to suggest that James wouldn't *ever* >use an Unforgivable in this kind of situation, rather, I was trying >to figure out whether or not he'd think to use, say, `Avada Kedavra' >right away. > >In the case of that latter question, `would James use an Unforgivable >Curse first,' I think that the answer is `no.' > >IMHO, like Moody, and his son, I'm thinking that James was probably a >man of impeccable character. Such a person probably wouldn't select >an Unforgivable Curse as a matter of first choice simply due to the >moral nature of their personality. > >I'm not saying that he'd have reservations using it in a last-ditch >effort, but rather that a person of Harry's, and Moody's character >(and so, James' character) probably would have naturally selected >something less lethal than an Unforgivable. For instance, I can see >James trying to `stupefy' Voldemort before killing him outright. > >-Tom > >Me again (Rosebeth): I have no doubt that James is of high moral character. I'm not sure we disagree. James knew what LV intended or else they wouldn't have gone into hiding and performed the complicated Fidelius Charm. Hagrid tells Harry in PS/SS The Keper of the Keys, that "No one ever lived after he [LV] decided to kill 'em, no one, except you, an' he'd killed some o' the best witches an' wizards of the age . . ." It stands to reason that James knew this. So, here we have LV coming in the front door and young James faced with his own death as well as Lily and Harry's. There is LV who has dedicated his life to evil and is a powerful wizard. At the same time, as smart and talented James is, he's still only about 20 years old. He knows he's got to try to save his family and that he's got to use the strongest magic he can. The thing is, that a person of high moral characther may actually choose an Unforgiveable in this particular situation. If James had met LV under any other conditions, your right, he would have tried something different. But this is it. It's all or nothing and James knows that he if he fails he's going to die. That's powerful motivation. Now, maybe your right. Maybe he tried to a spell similar to 'stupefy' and it didn't work and LV AK'd him. Maybe he tried something stronger. Maybe he didn't get an opportunity to even say anything when he was killed. If James did try the AK curse, would I think any less of his character. No! Without a doubt. So there you have it. I hope it makes sense, it's late. Rosebeth _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed Jun 11 05:45:26 2003 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:45:26 -0700 Subject: OOP: My own Predictions... Message-ID: <17424279982.20030610224526@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59952 Okay, here my own little predictions... Maybe not *wholly* rock-solid, but maybe at least clay-solid... (The more "muddy" predictions are at the end :) ) -- -- There will be lots of infighting within "The Old Crowd" (Snape vs. Sirius, Molly vs. Amos, Arthur vs. Mundungus, Moody vs. everyone), making it difficult for Dumbledore to get any real organization going. -- We will discover that Sirius isn't the only innocent victim of the John Ashcroft-like version of "justice" employed by Barty Crouch Sr., and that Dumbledore has as many potential allies currently locked up in Azkaban as does Lord V. -- Percy and/or Bagman will unwittingly aid the Dark Side. -- Hermione and Draco will become prefects. -- Crookshanks will be pivotal to the plot. -- Hagrid will be largely absent from Books 5 & 6 (the *real* reason for Robbie Coltrane's five-fingered faux-pas, IMHO), and Grubbly-Plank will teach CoMC. -- The "Practical" portion of Harry's OWLs will feature a duel with a DE. -- Celestina Warbeck will appear, and further our understanding of why music is "a greater magic than all we do here". ( Also, Ron will develop a horrible crush on her and go off foods when he finds out she is engaged to the Weird Sisters' drummer. :) ) -- Dave From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 06:06:20 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 06:06:20 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Felinia's Brilliant Fudge Theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59953 Hey Debbie - Again, I missed this post - but it's a great observation, and I hope to read the book. :-) I just started to get a feeling about Fudge's blindness with the scene at the end of GoF. A poster earlier today (sorry, I cannot now remember the name) mentioned something about a split between people who believe that Voldemort has returned and that something has to be done right now, and those who wish to bury their heads in the sand. That's a really common realpolitikal reaction, and something to keep in mind is that the events happening at Hogwarts are very far removed from the rest of the WW. Unless you actually have a kid there, you may not know anything about it at all; and what you hear from your child is likely to be a little distorted or incomplete in the telling due to lack of total information. >However, here is something I posted a while ago, but will do again >since it solidifies Felinia's theory (which I will call it since she >came up with it). In the book "the Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the >Mysteries of Harry Potter" by Galadriel Waters (an absolutely, >fantastic book! A must-have!), on page 88 it reads: Lucius - ....it >coincidentally was the name of Pope St. Lucius I, who became Pope >when the exiled St. Cornelius died. WHAT??? Cornelius died and >Lucius become the head? Could it really happen in HP? > >I'm with you Felinia and derannimer. I think this will happen. >However....if it does, I see Draco not being redeemed. I mean, his >father is MOM - why would he not want to be a DE? Being the series is >about choice, I'm starting to think Draco will show what happens when >you make the wrong decisions, compared to Harry. I did think he would >turn good, but now I'm not so sure. > >-Debbie >who wishes Lucius would help Harry kill LV and redeem himself, but >figures the chances of that are 99.99% not happening. :-( > I am torn a little about what will happen with Draco - but I don't think he will redeem himself through his own volition. I think, as I said in another post, that his mother Narcissa might get fed up and end up helping the good guys because she doesn't seem to be a committed baddie, just a petulant snob,a nd I doubt she married Lucius for love. If that happens, I could see Draco torn between his parents and feeling that his mother may have picked the winning side, or be the lesser of two evils. Someone else said, with which I heartily agree, that Draco probably wont' be truly redeemed if he winds up on "the good side" in that he'll exude bad grace about it, and won't really end up as Harry's friend, won't totally shake his prejudices about the superiority of purebloods, etc. It will be a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" - in realpolitik. But Draco won't end up cozy with the Trio or their friends and relations. I think it will be perhaps the tiny note of tension signalling the reality of what lies ahead at the end of the series - we may have defeated the big evil, but lesser evils are still with us. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From distractedone at comcast.net Wed Jun 11 06:10:06 2003 From: distractedone at comcast.net (Merlin) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 02:10:06 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction References: Message-ID: <00bf01c32fe0$1b327fe0$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59954 Cindy C.wrote: > > Now that June 21 is just around the corner (Wow! -- We'll be reading > OoP next weekend!), maybe it's time to get *serious* here. No more > having a whole bunch of vague predictions to your name. Maybe it's > time for a gut-check -- time for anyone who's willing to stand on > just one OoP prediction to step forward. My prediction is that James and Lilly are not really dead. With all the clues about switching spells throughout the first four books, and then with the funny way that Lupin acts around Harry on a couple of occasions I something is not right. I think they were switched out of there bodies and then hidden away with another secret keeper performing the Fidelius charm because they suspected Peter. This way if they were right about Peter then Voldemort would think they were dead and not continue to look for them. Merlin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From SusanXG at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 07:36:10 2003 From: SusanXG at hotmail.com (Susan XG) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 02:36:10 -0500 Subject: MoM= Fudge out, Malfoy in Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59955 Felinia: "Here's my prediction, which does include some vague parts: Fudge is going to turn out to be a baddie, but through ineptitude and blindness, not any real deep-seated evil. (Sort of like the appease hitler crew in Britain in WWII.) Because of his current position, he's going to make some very bad decisions, incluiding at least one major one that will have widespread impact, and cause a very open breach between Hogwarts and the MoM (among others). Because that kind of character and that sort of misguidedness is too tough to sustain through three more books as the sole cause de guerre, I think that Fudge is going to buy it near the end of Book V - and that because of other circumstances that have been set up all along, the new Minister of Magic will be...Lucius Malfoy." Excellent prediction! I agree with you as well. In fact, it has a kind of "historical" support. In Ancient Rome (around 250 CE/AD), Pope Cornelius began his reign over the Catholic Church. According to http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04375c.htm "We may accept the statement of the Liberian catalogue that he reigned two years, three months, and ten days, for Lipsius, Lightfoot, and Harnack have shown that this list is a first-rate authority for this date. His predecessor, Fabian, was put to death by Decius, 20 January, 250. About the beginning of March, 251 the persecution slackened, owing to the absence of the emperor, against whom two rivals had arisen. It was possible to assemble sixteen bishops at Rome, and Cornelius was elected though against his will.." "A few weeks later the Roman priest Novatian made himself antipope, and the whole Christian world was convulsed by the schism at Rome" "At the beginning of 252 a new persecution suddenly broke out. Cornelius was exiled..." "In June Cornelius died a martyr, as St. Cyprian repeatedly calls him. The Liberian catalogue has ibi cum glori dormicionem accepit, and this may mean that he died of the rigours of his banishment, though later accounts say that he was beheaded." Sound familiar? A persecution ends and then begins anew...Cornelius was exiled (probably because he was incompetent). Some say he died a martyr, others say he was beheaded...What if Fudge is sent to Azkaban...given the Dementor's Kiss or something...An "anti-pope" was declared...could this be Dumbledore? Hmmm... On Pope St. Lucius: From: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09411a.htm "After the death of St. Cornelius, who died in exile in the summer of 253, Lucius was chosen to fill his place, and consecrated Bishop of Rome" "The persecution of the Church under the Emperor Gallus, during which Cornelius had been banished, still went on. Lucius also was sent into exile soon after his consecration, but in a short time, presumably when Valerian was made emperor, he was allowed to return to his flock. The Felician Catalogue, whose information is found in the "Liber Pontificalis", informs us of the banishment and the miraculous return of Lucius" "Cyprian continues, alluding to the three Hebrew children in the fiery furnace, that the return from exile did not lessen the glory of the confession, and that the persecution, which was directed only against the confessors of the true Church, proved which was the Church of Christ. In conclusion he describes the joy of Christian Rome on the return of its shepherd. When Cyprian asserts that the Lord by means of persecution sought "to bring the heretics to shame and to silence them," and thus to prove where the Church was, who was her one bishop chosen by God's dispensation, who were her presbyters bound up with the bishop in the glory of the priesthood, who were the real people of Christ, united to His flock by a peculiar love, who were those who were oppressed by their enemies, and at the same time who those were whom the Devil protects as his own, he obviously means the Novatians. The schism of Novatian, through which he was brought forward as antipope, in opposition to Cornelius, still continued in Rome under Lucius". "Lucius died in the beginning of March, 254." "Cornelius, who died in exile, was honoured as a martyr by the Romans after his death; but not Lucius." "The author of the "Liber Pontificalis" has unauthorizedly ascribed to St. Lucius a decretal, according to which two priests and three deacons must always accompany the bishop to bear witness to his virtuous life" With Lucius in the post of the Minister of Magic, he basically has complete control over the Wizarding World. We already saw the beginnings of a "schism" between Hogwarts and the Ministry. An incompetent Fudge will find himself ousted from office ("exiled"), probably after a MAJOR mistake. Lucius will be "chosen" to take his place. He gets in there and things just get worse. Maybe at the beginning, it looks a little better or maybe Lucius does something unpopular and people want him gone...but he'll stay in office. Malfoy will oust Arthur, but will recruit an authority-pleasing Percy, which will turn him against his family. However, I think Percy will realize what's happening and pull an Italy at the last moment. History says Lucius dies and later becomes a saint...but he's not a martyr...Hmmm...Such possibilites It's going to basically be like Nazi Germany and Dumbledore's side is going to be losing ground...they'll need support from around the world... I know the saying "History repeats itself", but this is just plain scary. Susan :o) http://www.prophecygirl.com _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 07:42:24 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 07:42:24 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Dress Robes Affair Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59956 Melanie wrote, snipping my exposition on the horrors of hinting behavior if not nipped in the bud: >GOOD HEAVENS, YES!!! LOL My oldest is 7 1/2, a boy, and he is the KING of >hinting for what he wants. If he's wanting something good (cool toy, >game, go to the park, whatever) he hints around at it - "Boy, this sure >is cool!" "Wow, I really like that." "You know, if I had ___ I would take >such good care of it...." But heaven forbid he's wanting to go against >something he doesn't want/want to do. He immediately reacts just like >dear ol' Ron - complaining and griping about how he won't do this, won't >take that, doesn't want such-n-such, instead of just coming out and >saying, "Mom, I don't like this, can we do ____ instead?" (Or can I wait >5 minutes to finish my game, can I tape this show while I take my bath, >etc.) > >I do my best not to blow up at him like poor Molly did at Ron, but then I >only have 1 other child to take care of, and I'm not trying to shoo them >out the door to school! I do, however, refuse to play the hinting game, >and I say kudos to Molly for not falling for it herself. If my son is >wanting to have something/do something but won't ask for it, I just >smile, nod politely and agree with him that yep, it sure is cool! If he's >wanting to go against me, I weigh how much he's griping, whether thereis >an alternative, etc. I give him "THE LOOK" and will suggest to him, >"Well, what do you need to do about it?". If Molly had not been so >exasperated, she might have done the same, and given Ron that little >break to rewind, think about it, and realize that he needed to ask for an >alternative like getting help with the lace. > >One last note, I agree with the poster that said that Molly probably >*did* intend to speak to Ron about his dress robe, but with the >excitement over the DEs at the QWC, and the intervening very busy week, >just completely forgot about it. I don't think she ever intended to >embarass the poor boy that badly. > I agree with all of this - the thing is, the way the scenes are written, with JKR's adept touch, there is just the sense that this is an on-going situation in the Weasley house - not anomalous behavior that's suddenly cropped up. I think it was Fred who was using the incident of Molly possibly forgetting about the dress robes and the lace as a supporting piece of information about "shouldn't your children be the most important thing?"; and I have no doubt that Fred feels very strongly about these episodes because of what he's mentioned, his own background, which we each bring to bear in our interpretation of these types of scenes. (I've mentioned, at length, my own familial episodes with money - I've just brought a different lesson away from it than Fred has, and that's perfectly fine.) However, in my opinion, Fred has done a not uncommon thing and hyperbolized that type of incident - "shouldn't your children be the most important thing?" - into the notion that women who are mothers should sacrifice their entire lives, every moment of consciousness, to even fulfilling their children's *whims* and not their actual needs. If it is because one has felt inadequately mothered, I empathize; but as a woman who wants to be a mother and is working toward that goal, I also have come to know through study, observation and conversation both of mothers and of people (everyone has a mother, after all) in general that the best mothers are the ones who are *not* totally obsessed with their children's every whim; who *do* look out for their actual needs, which can include their safety, making tough choices about which needs of which child to fulfill at any given moment (and I agree with whomever posted that all of the chaos and anxiety around the QWC had probably *entirely* chased any subvital thoughts totally out of Molly's head - my own mother probably would have had to be hospitalized for a nervous breakdown after something like that - and tough love in terms of teaching lessons - which can include not catering to every fancy and whim. Even though we don't have pages of Ron mentioning not being rolling in money, there are plenty of cites, starting right early on on the train to Hogwarts, where we are *meant* see that his financial status is a source of great discomfort, embarrassment and angst to him. We're *meant* see that - it's not just a random fancy, it's somehow an important plot point (and I'm with those who think that Ron is ultimately going to do something stupid or ill-judged that's going to cause a great deal of harm because of it). I'll stand by what I say, that this is an on-going state of affairs, and that Molly's just hit a point where she's had enough. To take a reverse view, where are the cites that Molly is a careless or deliberately cruel mother - other than just very busy with that many kids, what is functionally a manor or estate to manage (because Arthur's working those long hours at the MoM, she doesn't have a house elf, and essentially the base of the domesticity at The Burrow looks rather agrarian than high tech to me), and a husband who's gone a lot and doesn't bring home a lot of money, so she has to budget and eke out and manage and scrounge? Her kids all seem to adore her, even Gred and Forge the problem babies; and they seem to mostly be well-adjusted young people, with their own little quirks and phobias, capable of succeeding in school and making friends and even having girlfriends (yes, Percy, the maladjusted, seems to have had a pretty cute girlfriend for some period of time). Just my thoughts at this late hour, Felinia in chore avoidance mode _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 07:52:46 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 07:52:46 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] MoM= Fudge out, Malfoy in Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59957 Wow, Susan: Excellent research, and also alludes back to what Debbie was talking about earlier. >Excellent prediction! I agree with you as well. In fact, it has a kind of >"historical" support. > >In Ancient Rome (around 250 CE/AD), Pope Cornelius began his reign over the >Catholic Church. > > >According to http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04375c.htm > >"We may accept the statement of the Liberian catalogue that he reigned two >years, three months, and ten days, for Lipsius, Lightfoot, and Harnack have >shown that this list is a first-rate authority for this date. His >predecessor, Fabian, was put to death by Decius, 20 January, 250. About the >beginning of March, 251 the persecution slackened, owing to the absence of >the emperor, against whom two rivals had arisen. It was possible to >assemble >sixteen bishops at Rome, and Cornelius was elected though against his >will.." > >"A few weeks later the Roman priest Novatian made himself antipope, and the >whole Christian world was convulsed by the schism at Rome" > >"At the beginning of 252 a new persecution suddenly broke out. Cornelius >was >exiled..." > >"In June Cornelius died a martyr, as St. Cyprian repeatedly calls him. The >Liberian catalogue has ibi cum glori dormicionem accepit, and this may >mean >that he died of the rigours of his banishment, though later accounts say >that he was beheaded." > > > >Sound familiar? A persecution ends and then begins anew...Cornelius was >exiled (probably because he was incompetent). Some say he died a martyr, >others say he was beheaded...What if Fudge is sent to Azkaban...given the >Dementor's Kiss or something...An "anti-pope" was declared...could this be >Dumbledore? Hmmm... > > >On Pope St. Lucius: > >From: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09411a.htm > >"After the death of St. Cornelius, who died in exile in the summer of 253, >Lucius was chosen to fill his place, and consecrated Bishop of Rome" > >"The persecution of the Church under the Emperor Gallus, during which >Cornelius had been banished, still went on. Lucius also was sent into exile >soon after his consecration, but in a short time, presumably when Valerian >was made emperor, he was allowed to return to his flock. The Felician >Catalogue, whose information is found in the "Liber Pontificalis", informs >us of the banishment and the miraculous return of Lucius" > >"Cyprian continues, alluding to the three Hebrew children in the fiery >furnace, that the return from exile did not lessen the glory of the >confession, and that the persecution, which was directed only against the >confessors of the true Church, proved which was the Church of Christ. In >conclusion he describes the joy of Christian Rome on the return of its >shepherd. When Cyprian asserts that the Lord by means of persecution sought >"to bring the heretics to shame and to silence them," and thus to prove >where the Church was, who was her one bishop chosen by God's dispensation, >who were her presbyters bound up with the bishop in the glory of the >priesthood, who were the real people of Christ, united to His flock by a >peculiar love, who were those who were oppressed by their enemies, and at >the same time who those were whom the Devil protects as his own, he >obviously means the Novatians. The schism of Novatian, through which he was >brought forward as antipope, in opposition to Cornelius, still continued in >Rome under Lucius". > >"Lucius died in the beginning of March, 254." > >"Cornelius, who died in exile, was honoured as a martyr by the Romans after >his death; but not Lucius." > >"The author of the "Liber Pontificalis" has unauthorizedly ascribed to St. >Lucius a decretal, according to which two priests and three deacons must >always accompany the bishop to bear witness to his virtuous life" > > >With Lucius in the post of the Minister of Magic, he basically has complete >control over the Wizarding World. We already saw the beginnings of a >"schism" between Hogwarts and the Ministry. An incompetent Fudge will find >himself ousted from office ("exiled"), probably after a MAJOR mistake. >Lucius will be "chosen" to take his place. He gets in there and things just >get worse. Maybe at the beginning, it looks a little better or maybe Lucius >does something unpopular and people want him gone...but he'll stay in >office. Malfoy will oust Arthur, but will recruit an authority-pleasing >Percy, which will turn him against his family. However, I think Percy will >realize what's happening and pull an Italy at the last moment. History says >Lucius dies and later becomes a saint...but he's not a martyr...Hmmm...Such >possibilites > >It's going to basically be like Nazi Germany and Dumbledore's side is going >to be losing ground...they'll need support from around the world... > >I know the saying "History repeats itself", but this is just plain scary. > > >Susan :o) > It is, indeed! But I think you're onto something about the dynamics with Percy and his family. I think there will be some tension in that quarter indeed, and that Percy will think of his career and that he can "get along", work with the new regime - but find out that he can't. But I think he'll wind up being a valuable pipeline, voluntary or not, while he's there. Maybe that will be Percy's chance to prove himself to have a spine: to be a brave mole, perhaps even die or have his mind messed with in some way for the cause. That would be tragic, but if it's sacrifice that's called for... But I think what you said is right - I'm not sure I articulated it properly if at all - things are going to have to get worse, Dumbledore is going to have to lose ground, before they are righted again. And I like the predictions of Snape and Black having to save each other and hating it the whole way - the reason I think that is very likely is that the opportunity is there for JKR to write the kind of crackling witty dialogue she is *so* good at - we saw some of it revisited in the "favorite lines" riff. I'll be that the scoring off each other banter will just crackle off the page at those points. :-) It's another of those things that, if JKR doesn't do it, someone should in fanfic. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From heidit at netbox.com Wed Jun 11 09:37:22 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 05:37:22 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59958 If you think that Lupin is really James, the you'd have to concluse that Snape saw James' name on the Map at the end of Book 3. Why wouldn't he say something in the shack, amid his hysteria, rather than acting and speaking to Sirius as if he thought Sirius had betrayed James? Heidi Tandy *Ask me about Nimbus - 2003* Http://www.hp2003.org -----Original Message----- From: Merlin Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 02:10:06 To:HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction Real-To: Merlin Cindy C.wrote: > > Now that June 21 is just around the corner (Wow! -- We'll be reading > OoP next weekend!), maybe it's time to get *serious* here. No more > having a whole bunch of vague predictions to your name. Maybe it's > time for a gut-check -- time for anyone who's willing to stand on > just one OoP prediction to step forward. My prediction is that James and Lilly are not really dead. With all the clues about switching spells throughout the first four books, and then with the funny way that Lupin acts around Harry on a couple of occasions I something is not right. I think they were switched out of there bodies and then hidden away with another secret keeper performing the Fidelius charm because they suspected Peter. This way if they were right about Peter then Voldemort would think they were dead and not continue to look for them. Merlin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From RhianynTheCat at aol.com Wed Jun 11 06:20:17 2003 From: RhianynTheCat at aol.com (RhianynTheCat at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 02:20:17 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Arthurian Legand & HP Message-ID: <5b.3a00e64b.2c182421@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59959 In a message dated 6/10/2003 10:23:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jestahijinx at hotmail.com writes: > Even though we see little of Narcissa, it doesn't seem > to me that it was a love match between the Malfoys - more the correct > bloodlines. Rhianyn yawns and stretches. Yes, I would agree and 'pon reflection think it may even be hinted at. Draco is clearly Narcissa's darling. She doesn't want him to go too far away to school (Durmstrang) she sends him goodies via owl constantly. If there's little in the way of affection between her and Lucius I can see where Draco would become the center of her life. And Lucius may well resent that hence his treatment of Draco. I do still like the idea of a James/Lily/Lucius/Narcissa quadrangle but suspect you're right in thinking it unlikely. Might be a bit too adult a theme. I do wonder if Narcissa and Lily were at Hogwarts at the same time tho. And if they were friends at some point. Or maybe even relatives. :::Curls fluffy black tail about herself just _so_ and returns to napping by the fire:::: ^ ^ =( * .*)= [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fashionmenu at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 06:37:13 2003 From: fashionmenu at hotmail.com (dublinaaireland) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 06:37:13 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: <00bf01c32fe0$1b327fe0$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59960 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Merlin wrote: > Cindy C.wrote: > > > > Now that June 21 is just around the corner (Wow! -- We'll be reading > > OoP next weekend!), maybe it's time to get *serious* here. No more > > having a whole bunch of vague predictions to your name. Maybe it's > > time for a gut-check -- time for anyone who's willing to stand on > > just one OoP prediction to step forward. > > My prediction is that James and Lilly are not really dead. With all the clues about switching spells throughout the first four books, and then with the funny way that Lupin acts around Harry on a couple of occasions I something is not right. I think they were switched out of there bodies and then hidden away with another secret keeper performing the Fidelius charm because they suspected Peter. This way if they were right about Peter then Voldemort would think they were dead and not continue to look for them. > > Merlin --------------------------------------------------------------- Hello!! Long time listener, first time caller... My prediction is that the Sorting Hat is a bit like the Pensive. The Sorting Hat is Dumbledore's brain/mind! However, this may or may not have been discussed, sorry if I've stepped on anybody's toes D --------------------------------------------------------------- From vixinalizardqueen at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 09:59:26 2003 From: vixinalizardqueen at hotmail.com (vixinalizardqueen) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:59:26 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59961 > My prediction is that James and Lilly are not really dead. With >all the clues about switching spells throughout the first four >books, and then with the funny way that Lupin acts around Harry on >a couple of occasions I something is not right. I think they were >switched out of there bodies and then hidden away with another >secret keeper performing the Fidelius charm because they suspected >Peter. This way if they were right about Peter then Voldemort >would think they were dead and not continue to look for them. > > Merlin But why would they stay in hiding after Voldemort was "dead" and gone?! Would they really leave their son to be cruelly brought up by Lily's witch-hating sister and brother-in-law?! "vixinalizardqueen" From brittneyheck at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 09:05:53 2003 From: brittneyheck at yahoo.com (Brittney Heck) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 02:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lethifolds and Voldemort In-Reply-To: <001501c32fd3$c1a61d80$89cafea9@yale> Message-ID: <20030611090553.83066.qmail@web20507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59962 This may seem totally off the wall and, unfortunately I do not have my copy of SS to check the description, but after reading Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them it struck me that the description of the lethifold in the book reminded me of what I always envisioned looked like when he was found drinking the unicorn's blood in the Dark Forrest. I have a feeling that this could perhaps be just coincidence or that I don't properly recall the text, but that is what my imaginiation came up with when I read the description. Just some thoughts. Brittney --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From brittneyheck at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 07:20:00 2003 From: brittneyheck at yahoo.com (Brittney Heck) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:20:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tomboy Lily/Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030611072000.27588.qmail@web20512.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59963 Sabrina Mergner wrote: <> I think this is an interesting theory. Petunia could have very likely been Harry's godmother. Also, just because Petunia hates Lily doesn't mean that somewhere deep within her soul she doesn't secretly love her. Or, Petunia could have just done the right thing because it was the right thing to do. Snape saved Harry because it was the right thing to do. Harry saved Wormtail because it was the right thing to do. Why wouldn't Petunia become Harry's godmother because it was just the right thing to do. She may have agreed figuring she'd never be asked to actually do anything as part of the agreement except agree. Just some thoughts. Brittney --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From brittneyheck at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 07:38:14 2003 From: brittneyheck at yahoo.com (Brittney Heck) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did Sirius have a knife? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030611073814.84078.qmail@web20506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59964 Ersatz Harry wrote: <> Sirius could have stolen a knife from just about anywhere, including the Hogwarts kitchen (though Houseleves may have gotten in the way). With Sirius' cunning and knowledge of the grounds, and his ability to turn into a dog, he could have managed this much easier than buying one. As for Harry's Christmas present, I believe it was probbaly mail ordered. Brittney Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kristen at sanderson-web.com Wed Jun 11 10:42:08 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (GKJPO) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 10:42:08 -0000 Subject: Is Crookshanks just a cat? Hmmmm... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59965 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ron_wizardchess_weasley" wrote: > Personally, I'd be willing to bet all of Fred and George's joke shop > money that Crookshanks is really MRS. Figg!! It would make sense. > Dumbledore eludes to the fact that MRS. Figg is a witch and that > Harry has been protected on Privet Dr. from the day he arrived. (and > MRS. Figg coincidentaly happens to live only a couple houses down > from the Dursleys and even babysits Harry from time to time) Also she > seems to love cats, (she has quite a few) so wouldn't it make sense > that if she were a Animagus that she would be a cat? Just a theory! > Let me know if you agree or disagree. Thanks. > Ron_WizardChess_Weasley If Crookshanks = Mrs. Figg than how could she have watched over Harry from Hermione's house last summer ??? Sorry, I can't agree with this one. I do think Crookshanks has a special role to play in future books though. Kristen From brittneyheck at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 07:54:20 2003 From: brittneyheck at yahoo.com (Brittney Heck) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Crookshanks just a cat? Hmmmm... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030611075420.33484.qmail@web20512.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59966 ron_wizardchess_weasley wrote: <> If you read one of the "school books" the J.K. Rowling wrote entitled Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them you find out that Crookshanks is part kneazle, or a sort of magical kind of cat (more of a cousin really). Either purchase the book ($3.99 US) and look at page 24 for the full kneazle description or go to the HP Lexicon webstie where they have a shortened description and also a small description of Crookshanks. The book is worth a look if you care to check it out. Brittney Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From brittneyheck at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 09:23:40 2003 From: brittneyheck at yahoo.com (Brittney Heck) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 02:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: My own Predictions... In-Reply-To: <17424279982.20030610224526@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20030611092340.42849.qmail@web20509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59967 Everyone on the list seems to be making their predicitions so I figured, waht the heck, I'd do it. I am not sure that these are rock solid, but i like them. I think that Hermoine will be made a prefect. I think that Dumbledore will find himself (temporarily) out of the position of headmaster at Hogwarts. Fudge even vaguely alluded to this idea at the end of GoF when he said they would meet in the morning (?) to discuss the way the school is being run. I have had several different possibilities as to who is going to die, but I am not sure which to stick by. I believe there are certain people who will die eventually... Wormtail, Dumbledore, Voldie... I believe there are others who could die... Snape, Lupin, Hagrid, one of the Weasleys... but i am not sure exactly who to put all my money on... hmmm.... difficult. Brittney (Who really loves bull terriers and would be thrilled if JKR would throw one in, even in passing, because it would combine two of her favorite topics, bullies and HP!) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sunny1192 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 08:00:49 2003 From: sunny1192 at yahoo.com (Amanda) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 08:00:49 -0000 Subject: Draco In-Reply-To: <140.136002d5.2c1794a2@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59968 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > I can't imagine that Draco will turn good. I see him carrying on the forces > of evil because, frankly, there is always evil in the world. If Harry finishes > off Voldemort and the Death Eaters by the end of the series, then that will > give the symbolic impression that evil has been conquered. But we need Harry > Potter in the world, just like we need Batman or Superman. Even when the series > has ended, we need to know why there's still evil in real life, and that > there's someone to battle it. That's why, IMO, Harry will not die and Draco will not > turn from the dark side. In fact, I believe Draco will take over where his > dad left off (when his dad eventually dies -- in the series), and he'll have > hinted aspirations at becoming the next Voldemort. > > Brief Chronicles That Draco would most likely remain (for lack of a better term) evil due to wanting to pick up where his father left off is definitely a valid theory. It's intriguing and very in-character for the young Mr. Malfoy. However, I do have to disagree with the "Draco will remain evil because the world needs to have evilness" theory (remember, though, this is just my opinion ^_^). While evil may remain in the world (because, as you pointed out, evil exists everywhere), Draco may not necessarily be the one to keep it in existance. Any character (specifically any one of the Slytherins, stereotypically speaking, or any of the Death Eaters not finished off by the end of the series) could technically take over where Lord Voldemort leaves off (if he IS wiped out, of course). Draco, because of Lucius's involvement in the Dark Arts and loyalty to his master, is obviously one of our first choices for the future Dark Lord. However, I still believe there might be a part of Draco which decides he's had enough terror and decides to join the side of 'good' in wiping out Voldemort. There again, I could also see Draco leaving the Dark Side just to tick off Lucius. The man's been a constant source of anger and evil; I'd be a little rebellious, too, wouldn't you? ^_~ One more point to make (though I believe someone else already brought it up): Snape is a former Death Eater who is now working with Dumbledore to defeat Voldemort (as far as we know, of course). I'd be interested to find out why he chose to switch sides; maybe there's a correlation between himself and the youngest Malfoy. So, really, it's anyone's guess at this point. Brief Chronicles, I like your theories. We'll just have to wait and see! ^_^ I am, however, fairly sure neither Crabbe NOR Goyle will become the next Dark Lord. God forbid; the Wizarding World would be in even worse trouble than it is with Voldemort on the loose! ~Amanda From brittneyheck at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 08:22:28 2003 From: brittneyheck at yahoo.com (Brittney Heck) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Eileen's *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction/My Book 7 Pred In-Reply-To: <20030609211554.24035.qmail@web20405.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030611082228.91872.qmail@web20506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59969 Eileen wrote: <> I think Dumbledore will die, but not until the end or 3/4 of the way through book 7. I think it will be necessary for Dumbledore to die eventually, but I believe Harry is still too young and too vulnerable to be without him. Brittney ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Kira1119 at Hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 08:04:06 2003 From: Kira1119 at Hotmail.com (Kira November) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 03:04:06 -0500 Subject: What's in a Name? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59970 I am reading 'In Search of Zarathustra' in which the author traces the influence of the ancient religion Zoroastrianism on other religions ancient and modern. In a section on the Bulgarian Empire (who knew there was one, raise your hands!) I came across this: "Yet it is sometimes possible to read between the lines of their bare accounts and imagine how it must have been, say, on the day in 814 when the fearsome Khan Krum, after a whole year of preparation, led a huge army south from his territory in Thrace to besiege Constantinople." and this: "But Krum has defeated three Roman emperors in succession on the battlefield, and drunk wine from the silver-lined skull of Nicephorus, the last of them." Kira November who likes to go eclectic _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From brittneyheck at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 06:55:59 2003 From: brittneyheck at yahoo.com (Brittney Heck) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius' knife. Who attacked who? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030611065559.19938.qmail@web20508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59971 Steve wrote: <> It states in PoA in the article that Harry reads on the KNight bUs that Fudge allowed the muggle Prime Minister to say Black has a gun in order to make it clear that whether her has a gun or not, Black should be considered armed and dangerous. <> Pettigrew did attack Ron right before he transformed back into his animagus form. It was a way of ensuring a clean escape from the scene because Lupin was off being a werewolf, Sirius was protecting the kids from Lupin, and Harry and Hermoine were worried about Sirius and Lupin, so Ron was the only one able to stop Pettigrew, so Pettigrew stunned him and transformed. Brittney Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catherinemck at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 12:45:16 2003 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 12:45:16 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59972 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mmgardin" wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Ok here's my *One* OOP prediction that I stand firmly on. The short > version of my prediction is that we find out more about Neville's > parents. > > The long version (I hope this only counts as one prediction) is as > follows: > We find out that Neville's parents were given the dememtor's kiss. > Shortly before they were soul sucked though, they told Neville some > really important secret (probably a secret the DE's wanted kept > secret but Neville's parents knew) with the Fidelius charm and wiped > out his memory with powerful memory charms. I also think that Snape, > during a potions class, will teach a potion that erases/detects > memory charms and in that class, Neville will have to test his potion > on himself. > > Cheers, > Marcia Ooh, I like the idea of the Potions class revelation. Presumably the Charmee doesn?t know he?s been charmed, so if Dumbledore knows, it would be a good way to reveal it to Neville without looking too obvious, or to the world at large. ?Sorry Fudge, it was on the curriculum. It's not my fault if you keep secrets from me?? Can't see Snape feeling squeamish about doing this, either. A bit MAGIC DISHWASHER, though? Catherine From catherinemck at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 12:45:22 2003 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 12:45:22 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59973 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mmgardin" wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Ok here's my *One* OOP prediction that I stand firmly on. The short > version of my prediction is that we find out more about Neville's > parents. > > The long version (I hope this only counts as one prediction) is as > follows: > We find out that Neville's parents were given the dememtor's kiss. > Shortly before they were soul sucked though, they told Neville some > really important secret (probably a secret the DE's wanted kept > secret but Neville's parents knew) with the Fidelius charm and wiped > out his memory with powerful memory charms. I also think that Snape, > during a potions class, will teach a potion that erases/detects > memory charms and in that class, Neville will have to test his potion > on himself. > > Cheers, > Marcia Ooh, I like the idea of the Potions class revelation. Presumably the Charmee doesn?t know he?s been charmed, so if Dumbledore knows, it would be a good way to reveal it to Neville without looking too obvious, or to the world at large. ?Sorry Fudge, it was on the curriculum. It's not my fault if you keep secrets from me?? Can't see Snape feeling squeamish about doing this, either. A bit MAGIC DISHWASHER, though? Catherine From rayheuer3 at aol.com Wed Jun 11 13:42:46 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:42:46 EDT Subject: Sorting Hat as a plot device Message-ID: <4f.30183176.2c188bd6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59974 In reading two unrelated subjects, one about the Sorting Hat and another about the parallels between Harry and King Arthur, a thought has come to me. [It was a welcome change, my brain gets so few visitors these days...] The Sorting Hat is, as far as we know, the only artifact that has come down to us from the time of the founding of Hogwarts, and it bears some of the essences of the four founders. There has been tons of speculation on this list and in fanfic as to what the hat can do besides sort out first-years, but only one canonical reference (Harry literally "pulling a sword of the hat" in the battle against the basilisk in CoS). And, in Arthurian legend, there was the search for the Holy Grail, which obsessed many of the Knight of the Round Table, but no obvious cognate in HP. So, here's the premise... The Sorting Hat is stolen! Besides the obvious chaos this would cause if it wasn't returned by the start of next term, there are all sorts of hints of dark possibilities if Voldemort gets his hands on the Hat. It could easily drive an entire book. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Jun 11 13:44:18 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:44:18 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Crookshanks just a cat? Hmmmm... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59975 In a message dated 6/10/2003 10:14:32 PM Central Standard Time, yellows at aol.com writes: Personally, I'd be willing to bet all of Fred and George's joke shop > money that Crookshanks is really MRS. Figg!! > I agree with you. Somehow, I can't look at Crookshanks as a regular pet, > because he has such a clearly-defined personality and understanding of > things > around him that he seems a bit human. In a creepy kind of way. :) I don't > really > like Crookshanks all that much. He gives me the willies. Can a female tranform into a male? This isn't like a polyjuice potion where all you need is a bit of who you want to be, male or female. If, as in the case of wands, the animal chooses the person what does that say about Mrs Figg? We haven't seen a case of cross gender transformation yet. Melissa < who tends to think that Crookshanks is part kneazle> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From frankenmira at gmx.de Wed Jun 11 11:51:48 2003 From: frankenmira at gmx.de (frankenmira at gmx.de) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 13:51:48 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco References: <20030610214800.72589.qmail@web20705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4740.1055332308@www67.gmx.net> No: HPFGUIDX 59976 Hi becka, I think Draco Malfoy is a good guy at heart and he?s wearing a mask because his father tries to force him to be a bad boy and a Death Eater. When some day his father?s influence will be gone perhaps because he?s dead the boy might change drastically. There?s also a little chance that Draco could find out that his life would be more happy if he had real friends and if he befriends Harry at least or someone else who supports the side of the light (litterally spoken) who knows what will happen then... Yours Draconis Malfoy -- +++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++ Bitte l?cheln! Fotogalerie online mit GMX ohne eigene Homepage! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jun 11 12:09:36 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 12:09:36 -0000 Subject: OoP - Fawkes' Fate? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59977 Like most, I'm just marking time until a week Saturday. But comments fromClio44a, Rachelbeth007 and Hickengreundler about the supposed secrecy of the title of the German edition, speculating on the differing words for different meanings of 'order'. This reminded me of an old SF story 'To Serve Man.' ( Aliens contact Earth; Humans find out aliens have a book entitled 'To Serve Man'; big ego boost; and it's a cookbook.) Traditional end of book feast - "I'll have the pheonix, well done, with puffskein garnish and knotweed sauce." But how do you cook a pheonix? BBQ is out. Oven roast? Well, constantly regenerating burnt feathers is bit off-putting. Microwave? Do they exist in the Wizarding World? Maybe.... Sushi, anyone? Kneasy From rose_in_shadow at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 12:49:42 2003 From: rose_in_shadow at yahoo.com (rose_in_shadow) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 12:49:42 -0000 Subject: Snapes assignment In-Reply-To: <001d01c32f9c$5d6e4fe0$1400a8c0@danielbhfl37cx> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59978 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dan" wrote: > Abby said: > > GoF. Well, here is a new idea (I hope). Snape uses polyjuice potion > > to pretend to be Barty Crouch Jr. for Voldemort, who dosen't know > > that Barty had been kissed. By being Voldemort's loyal servant, > > Snape can find out anything he wants to about Voldemort's plans. OF > > course, this theory kinda falls apart if Fudge is a Death Eater and > > told Voldemort about Barty's kiss. Oh well. Moira(me) says: The only hole I can see in this is the viability of the polyjuice potion. We know from CoS that it takes at least a month to brew but afterwards, how long does it last once complete? Or does Snape just have some polyjuice laying around? Because he certainly doesn't have time to make any. From lilpurplealdy at netscape.net Wed Jun 11 14:37:46 2003 From: lilpurplealdy at netscape.net (Juliet) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:37:46 -0000 Subject: OOP: What is Dumbledore going to tell Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59979 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ron_wizardchess_weasley" wrote: > I just came from the Barnes and Nobles' website and on it they > have > a passage from Order of the Pheonix : > Dumbledore lowered his hands and surveyed Harry through his half- > moon glasses. "It is time," he said, "for me to tell you what I > should have told you five years ago, Harry. Please sit down. I am > going to tell you everything." > Maybe he is going to tell him that they are related or that his > parents aren't really dead but just in hiding. I can only speculate > what "everything" involves, but I am curious to hear what everyone > else thinks. Please! let me know. Thanks. > Ron_WizardChess_Weasley Five years ago.... >> "Well...Voldemort said that he only killed my mother because she tried to stop him from killing me. But why would he want to kill me in the first place?" Dumbledore sighed very deeply this time. "Alas, the first thing you ask me, I cannot tell you. Not today. Now now. You will know, one day...put it from your mind for now, Harry. When you are older...I know you hate to hear this...when you are ready, you will know." >> That, I think, is what everything is: WHY. WHY Voldemort wanted to kill Harry, WHY Voldemort wanted to kill James(or atleast, had no problem in doing so)- but not Lily. Basically, full details of That Fateful Night. I'm betting OOP will be very informative. ~Aldrea, who will, unfortunately, be at a swim meet on the 21st and so will not be able to get to her copy of OOP until 1 or 3 in the afternoon... From lmbolland at earthlink.net Wed Jun 11 14:41:05 2003 From: lmbolland at earthlink.net (eric_and_lauri) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:41:05 -0000 Subject: OOP: What is Dumbledore going to tell Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59980 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ron_wizardchess_weasley" wrote: > but I am curious to hear what everyone > else thinks. Please! let me know. Thanks. > It looks (to me) like he is going to tell Harry what he could not tell him at the end of Book I. In the hospital wing, Harry asked for the truth. Dumbledore replied that truth is a beautiful and terrible thing and that he would answer his questions unless he had a good reason not to, but that he would not lie. Harry then said, since Voldemort only killed his mother because she tried to stop V. from killing HIM (Harry), then why was V. trying to kill him in the first place? Dumbledore sighed deeply and said that he could not tell him, not today, not now, but that Harry would know one day. D. told Harry to put it out of his mind until he is older, and that when he is ready, he would know. So - it seems logical that D. will be telling H. why V. tried to kill him all those years ago. :) eric_and_lauri From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 14:52:25 2003 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:52:25 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59981 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Laura" wrote: > On to my prediction- > > I personally avidly support the idea that Snape was at the Potter's > on the night Lily and James were killed, and I predict that this will > be presented as fact in OOP. The only real canon evidence I have to > support this is the dream Harry has his first night as Hogwarts, in > which he sees Snape's face along with Voldemort's laugh, leading me > to believe that he has somehow connected them in his head. So my > prediction is that, during the course of telling everything (thinking > about that passage is making me loose sleep, I swear...), Dumbledore > will reveal that Snape was at the Potter's house on that infamous > night, either trying to warn the Potters or reinforce some side or > another of his double agent role. I don't think it's impossible that Snape was at the Potter's house that night. I remember the dream you are talking about. But who is to say that particular dream isn't something that happens in the future? I don't have the book with me and I haven't read it in ages. Is Snape the only one Harry sees or is Malfoy also mentioned. I just can't remember but like you I think there is something to all of this. > > That's my story and I'm sticking to it. ;-) (until 2 weeks from now, > when I'll probably be proven wrong...) Yes, well, I'm also sticking to all my theories until proven wrong. ;-D Even those I have never posted on. Predictions? I predict that we won't find out many of the things we have been guessing about for the last years. We might not find out yet that Snape is a vampire and that Petunia is really a witch. I guess if I had to make just 'ONE' prediction it is that Snape won't be a Hogwarts teacher next year. Let's hope I'm wrong on that prediction. "K" From jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com Wed Jun 11 14:21:13 2003 From: jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com (jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 10:21:13 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: My own Predictions... In-Reply-To: <20030611092340.42849.qmail@web20509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001c33024$b70415c0$84175c18@jamesz9ibq8rxr> No: HPFGUIDX 59982 Wow I have seen some wild predictions in the fast few days and would like to add one of my own. Who will die? Hargid? I don't think so, he has watched over Harry since he was a baby and in a way seems like he is Harry's guardian angel. Dumbledore no; who in the cast has the back ground to step up and run the school in fact no other wizard seems to be even close to having the power that Dumbledore has. Ron, Hermione no to important to the story they are interwoven too much. What about the number two person, Professor McGonagall? She has help Harry out of several tight spots if she was to die it would affect all but would not affect the story line. Everyone seems to over look her, which makes her a prime candidate in my book. She is often over looked but always around has been in all the books but what would change if she was to die? NOTHING Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cssdarrow at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 14:53:07 2003 From: cssdarrow at hotmail.com (constance_chi_town) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:53:07 -0000 Subject: Arthurian Legand & HP In-Reply-To: <5b.3a00e64b.2c182421@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59983 jestahijinx at h... writes: > > > Even though we see little of Narcissa, it doesn't seem > > to me that it was a love match between the Malfoys - more the correct RhianynTheCat at a... wrote: > Yes, I would agree and 'pon reflection think it may even be hinted at. Draco > is clearly Narcissa's darling. She doesn't want him to go too far away to > school (Durmstrang) she sends him goodies via owl constantly. If there's little > in the way of affection between her and Lucius I can see where Draco would > become the center of her life. And Lucius may well resent that hence his > treatment of Draco. Connie in reply writes: I guess I should have been clearer that I am just starting out on this line of thought for my Thesis, and I am not talking about a literal comparison. I love both these stories and am excited about the possibility of being able to research both in depth. I do not, however, know if my advisor will accept this since the Harry Potter series will not be complete. I know that good versus evil is a well know theme throughout literature but I am looking at the similarity in symbols and metaphors. I was looking at the "Might is right" vs. "Might for right" in Arthurian legend and the "there is only power and those to weak to seek it" vs. "Do what is right, not what is easy" from Harry Potter. Looking at the symbols of the sword, owls, humans transforming into animals, and order of the Phoenix and the Knights of the Round Table. These stories will be mythology in 2000 years, and, as we now link stories of similar myths for comparison, I look to link these two stories as similar myth. I am very aware that there is some historical record in regard to Arthur and the Knights, but it is still mainly myth built on a few facts. Just as an example: Arthur pulls the sword out of the stone/anvil to help Kay, not realizing the significance of the act. Harry pulls the sword out of the hat while trying to Help Ginny, not realizing its significance. (As it is fairly well predicted that Harry will be the heir of Godric Gryffindor). Connie From lorangell at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 14:56:45 2003 From: lorangell at yahoo.com (lorangell) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:56:45 -0000 Subject: Proud Mama Trevor! (wasRe: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59984 > > > Ok, very weird. I hear this same idea two times in one day! I'm > interested why exactly you came up with it. After all what reason > would Trevor be needed to give birth to basilisk. After all I hardly > see Neville doing it. > > Serena Trevor is still around, getting lost, and there has to be another reason for it other than comedy. I think it would be redundant to have Trevor be yet another unregistered animagus (sp?). I also don't think we've seen the last of the Chamber of Secrets. So I combined those two thoughts with the fact that in CoS we were told that basilisk's were born when a toad hatched a hen's egg. I've been thinking for a whie that that's why Trevor is still getting lost and what we can expect in future, and I only recently began thinking that it would happen in OotP rather than book 6 or 7. As to why Trevor would do it, or who would make him do it, I don't know...perhaps Quirell in PS/SS? --lorangell From s_karmol at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 15:01:21 2003 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (s_karmol) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 15:01:21 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59985 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dublinaaireland" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Merlin > > > > (Snip) > I think they were switched > out of there bodies and then hidden away with another secret keeper > performing the Fidelius charm because they suspected Peter. This way > if they were right about Peter then Voldemort would think they were > dead and not continue to look for them. > > > > Merlin > > (snip)-------------------------------------------------------------- - > Hello Stephanie here: Merlin, if only it were true!! But my only thought is if they were still alive, how was it that they came out of Voldemort's wand? If someone dies while being someone else (polyjuice potion), I wonder if their old self or their polyjuice self would cme out of the wand...hmmm...food for thought. Steph > --------------------------------------------------------------- From dgagauzov at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 14:17:54 2003 From: dgagauzov at yahoo.com (Dimitar) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:17:54 -0000 Subject: Why redeem Draco? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59986 I'm a lurker on this list but I decided to ask this question. Why redeem Draco? I have read thousands of posts in which posters, overwhelmingly female, come up with elaborate explanations of his actions just so he doesn't look so bad, ignoring the much more probable explanation that he is bad little spoiled brat. Why does he have to turn to the good side, there is nothing in the four books to suggest that he has the slightest inclination to do that. The comparison with Snape doesn't work because he saved Harry in the first book which showed us that there is more to Snape than meets the eye, with Draco there is nothing of the sorts. Is this about s leather pants or because you don't wont to see bad/evil children? If it's the second then how do you explain Tom Riddle and Malfoy Sr. which I'm sure was as bad and spoiled as Draco is now although maybe smarter than his son. --Dimitar From heidit at netbox.com Wed Jun 11 15:30:59 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 11:30:59 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why redeem Draco? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59987 Dimitar asked, regarding Draco: **there is nothing in the four books to suggest that he has the slightest inclination to do that. The comparison with Snape doesn't work because he saved Harry in the first book which showed us that there is more to Snape than meets the eye, with Draco there is nothing of the sorts.** There actually is one clear thing in book 4 to suggest that Draco is not as inclined to wander down the Path of Evil as one might think on first glance - it happens in the woods at the World Cup where, instead of handing the trio over to the death eaters, or even just waylaying them or otherwise hindering them, he tells them how to get out of the way of the marauding death eaters. Where's the personal gain to him in this? What benefit can he take from doing something that helps them? He doesn't even gain a smidge of trust or appreciation from them. And I doubt he expected to - so it's likely not that... And that's apart from the fact that jkr's given him a father who is, at a minimum, psychologically abusive, as well as a teacher who's physically abusive to him in a way that even other teachers are horrified by. Why would she set up any sympathy for him over the course of the books unless she wanted to leave a door open to him being Something Other Than Evil? Heidi Tandy Follow me to FictionAlley - Harry Potter fanfics of all shapes, sizes and ships - 7 sickles an ounce http://www.FictionAlley.org From meboriqua at aol.com Wed Jun 11 15:46:55 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 15:46:55 -0000 Subject: Why redeem Draco? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59988 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dimitar" wrote: > I'm a lurker on this list but I decided to ask this question. Why > redeem Draco? I have read thousands of posts in which posters, > overwhelmingly female, come up with elaborate explanations of his > actions just so he doesn't look so bad, ignoring the much more > probable explanation that he is bad little spoiled brat. Why does he have to turn to the good side, there is nothing in the four books to suggest that he has the slightest inclination to do that.> While I don't see Draco as evil, I certainly don't see him as a good guy either. Heidi's defense of Draco is well thought-out, but (and don't hate me, Heidi!) I don't have any sympathy for Draco, I don't think his father is abusive, and I don't really believe he wanted to warn the Trio in GoF in order to help them, either. I think he is still stinging from Harry's rejection in SS and, in a sort of sick way, he craves attention from Harry and will do just about anything to get it. I'd like to think that JKR will give us more characters who are in the grey area, like Fudge, than who are clearly evil (Voldemort) or clearly good (Harry). I would like to see a Draco who doesn't choose to follow in his father's footsteps, but who doesn't choose to side with Harry and co., either. He can be a git without being evil. That's the way people really are. I predict that the only one Draco will choose to look out for is Draco. --jenny from ravenclaw, hoping she didn't just make another hideous mistake like she has been doing far too often as of late ******************************************************************** From cindysphynx at comcast.net Wed Jun 11 15:57:55 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 15:57:55 -0000 Subject: OoP SPOILER/FF: Opening Lines of OoP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59989 Hi, all, Apparently, the _Guardian_is having a contest to see who can write the most accurate or most inventive opening few paragraphs for OoP, 300 words or less. You know, you take the opening lines about the flower bed and write what you think JKR will write. Or write something amusing. Here's the link, with a few examples: http://books.guardian.co.uk/potter/page/0,13381,974608,00.html Now, these examples are well and good and all. Yes, yes, yes. But I think the folks on this list can do just as well. Or better. And since the _Guardian_ isn't offering anything in the way of prizes, we might was well steal their idea and make our own fun. Besides, this gives an opportunity to flesh out some of the predictions about the opening lines when Bloomsbury first released them. OK. The opening lines from OoP are: "The hottest day of the summer so far was drawing to a close and a drowsy silence lay over the large, square houses of Privet Drive... The only person left outside was a teenage boy who was lying flat on his back in a flowerbed outside number four." I'll go with: *********************** "Harry grimaced at the stabbing pain radiating from his hip and hauled himself to his feet. Nothing broken, he decided after a moment. Inside, he could hear the television blaring, his cousin Dudley no doubt lolling before it, his piggy eyes inches from the flickering screen. Dudley. Dudley was the reason Harry had been on the roof. Dudley and his top-of-the-line new satellite dish, the "Tellie for Tubbies Version 1.0." It would receive 200 different stations, the salesman had explained hurriedly, each blasting 24 hours of programming into your home each and every day -- "all of it educational, ma'am, all of it educational!" "Educational" meant that most of the shows were in foreign languages Dudley couldn't understand, but the Dursleys didn't know that yet. "It was Harry's job to make the thing work. Without using magic. "Harry, you see, was a wizard . . . " *********************** Cindy -- keeping her day job and hoping OoP is *much* better From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 15:45:38 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Bond) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 08:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Death Eaters IQ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030611154538.95678.qmail@web20711.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59990 Amanda wrote: I am, however, fairly sure neither Crabbe NOR Goyle will become the next Dark Lord. God forbid; the Wizarding World would be in even worse trouble than it is with Voldemort on the loose! ~Amanda I replied: That brings up an interesting point though, does Voldie only recruit intelligent people or does he recruit anyone willing to support him. I am inclined to think that he lets all who want to join up with him do so..but they may or may not be given any jobs to do. But I do have to wonder about the Death Eaters IQ given that Wormtail has such a high position in the eyes of the Dark Lord. ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dorigen at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 16:09:18 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 16:09:18 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why redeem Draco? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59991 >I'd like to think that JKR will give us more characters who are in >the grey area, like Fudge, than who are clearly evil (Voldemort) or >clearly good (Harry). A good idea on the surface, but I wonder ... C. S. Lewis said somewhere that you can't spend your entire life being a good egg. Sooner or later you must either hatch or go bad. JKR seems to agree that sooner or later you must make a choice. I think that if you don't make a choice, either your actions or your lack of actions will make the choice for you -- you will be helping one side or the other. Note that this works better for evil than for good. (Someone else said that all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. I think they'll carve that one on Fudge's tombstone -- if Dumbledore doesn't get there first and put "I told you so.") In my opinion Fudge's actions and lack of actions are pointing toward the side of Voldemort and evil. He may not have evil intent, but whether he eventually turns deliberately to the dark side or remains a well-meaning bumbler, the results will continue to benefit Voldemort unless he makes a conscious decision to do otherwise. I suspect he will turn evil for the same reason Peter Pettigrew did -- cowardice and the inability to withstand threats. One characteristic of fudge is that when it is subjected to heat, it melts into a puddle ... Janet Anderson (I found out recently that I have to leave town at 2:00 pm on June 20 and won't be back until late Sunday. And the bookstore manager says he is not *allowed* to give me OOP early ... which means I'll lose the whole weekend!!!) * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From ecprincess78 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 16:30:15 2003 From: ecprincess78 at yahoo.com (Leah Jamison) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 16:30:15 -0000 Subject: Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59992 "Amanda" wrote: Draco, because of Lucius's involvement in the Dark Arts and loyalty to his master, is obviously one of our first choices for the future Dark Lord. I, Leah, must wonder... I don't know how bright you have to be to become the Dark Lord, but I just don't think that Draco's got it. If he were half as intelligent as Riddle was, we would have heard about it by now. Actually, we hear him complaining about Hermione in Borgin & Burkes (CoS); and Lucius berates him for not beating a girl and a Muggle. We don't have any specific canon for his grades, but I suspect that they are not phenomenal. On a second note, I don't think Draco is evil enough to be the Dark Lord. He just seems to be a petty, malicious brat who has no consideration for others (on the other hand, Tom probably didn't appear evil either...). Tatta, Leah From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 16:50:57 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 16:50:57 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why redeem Draco? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59993 An interesting discussion: >Dimitar asked, regarding Draco: >**there is nothing in the four books to >suggest that he has the slightest inclination to do that. The >comparison with Snape doesn't work because he saved Harry in the >first book which showed us that there is more to Snape than meets >the eye, with Draco there is nothing of the sorts.** > >There actually is one clear thing in book 4 to suggest that Draco is not as >inclined to wander down the Path of Evil as one might think on first glance >- it happens in the woods at the World Cup where, instead of handing the >trio over to the death eaters, or even just waylaying them or otherwise >hindering them, he tells them how to get out of the way of the marauding >death eaters. > >Where's the personal gain to him in this? What benefit can he take from >doing something that helps them? He doesn't even gain a smidge of trust or >appreciation from them. And I doubt he expected to - so it's likely not >that... > >And that's apart from the fact that jkr's given him a father who is, at a >minimum, psychologically abusive, as well as a teacher who's physically >abusive to him in a way that even other teachers are horrified by. Why >would she set up any sympathy for him over the course of the books unless >she wanted to leave a door open to him being Something Other Than Evil? > Draco is a braggart and a bully, one who uses others to do his "muscle" work on him and seems to derive his pride and self-image from material possessions, place in society, and a lineage that's been drummed into him since childhood. He's got *something* on the order of charisma - although it may just be the miasma of social success that clings to him now and makes him appealing to the likes of Pansy, Crabbe and Goyle. I don't know that that sort of thing will withstand any real test of loyalty - but I don't think it's because there are the seeds of decency inside Draco either. I think that ultimately what will decide what Draco will do and which direction he goes will simply be who he thinks is likely to be the winning side, and what he will get out of it. I think it's highly possible he will lend unwilling aid to the Trio and the "good guys" simply because they look likely to win and his own comfortable previous existence will have somehow been ruined for good anyway (Narcissa killed, left, Malfoy urging him to go into exile with him in some improbable place...) Felinia _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 16:55:41 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 16:55:41 -0000 Subject: Who's who (Was Re: Snapes assignment) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59994 Not so fast. It does seem unlikely that one DE (Fudge, if he is one) would order up a Dementor's Kiss for another DE (Crouch), unless it was authorized by Voldemort, who would have to have had some reason for ordering young Crouch's effective execution. Granted, the timing seems tight for Voldemort to materialize, send the order to Fudge, duel with Harry, etc. But imagine if it was pre-arranged, with Voldemort communicating something like the following to Fudge: "I am still alive, but do not yet have a proper body. Should my plan succeed, your Dark Mark will let you know, and I want you to eliminate Crouch/Moody as soon as you can before he can give away any information." Such a move is hardly rewarding a helper (as Voldemore says he does when he gives Wormtail a new hand), but I could nonetheless imagine Voldemort doing this. As far as the objection that Snape would not have had time to make any polyjuice potion, well, perhaps he keeps some on hand -- do you just let it simmer until needed? -- so that all he needed to do was add a bit of young Crouch when the time came. Now Snape presumably did not know that Apparent!Moody was really Crouch, so Dumbledore and Snape would have to have discussed the possibility beforehand somehow ("if some DE turns up in disguise, Severus, you may need to take on that DE's identity"). Might be a good reason for keeping a former DE on staff, yes? Then again, we could get close to Magic Dishwasherish and assume that Dumbledore really did know all along that Apparent!Moody was really Crouch... Let's imagine further how this could play out: Snape-as-Crouch goes to Voldemort (they both presumably have Dark Marks, so the change in bodies is not a problem). Voldemort sees an Apparent!Crouch and either thinks that Fudge has not yet gotten the job done (or has decided not to do it) or suspects that polyjuice potion is at work. Just to set a trap, Voldemore decides to string the Apparent!Crouch along for a bit and pretend to be taken in. By and by, Fudge hears from Voldemort asking hey what happened? Fudge in turn is now unsure if he had the real Crouch kissed, or if it was someone who had polyjuiced into Crouch. (I don't even think we as readers can say for sure whether it was the real Crouch or someone-else-as-Crouch who got kissed.) IIRC, Fudge saw Snape after an Apparent!Crouch was kissed, so he probably wouldn't suspect Snape unless we get into some elaborate polyjuice chain; in fact, that might be enough to convince Fudge (and Voldemort) that the real Crouch was kissed. If it was only an Apparent!Crouch that was kissed, there would eventually be a breakdown in someone's ability to maintain the behavior and knowledge consistent with the disguise (unlike the situation with Crouch-as-Moody). In any event, Fudge and Voldemort may now be convinced that any Apparent!Crouch is really Snape, and so the trap will continue to be baited. Poor Severus if this is the case... In other words, maybe this could work after all. And of course I have to come back to my still-favorite anagram: Cornelius Fudge = Lucifer Segundo. Ersatz Harry, who wonders if we need a mongoose animagus to get rid of Voldemort the snake --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jabig33" wrote: > So we have all been wondering about where Snape goes at the end of > GoF. Well, here is a new idea (I hope). Snape uses polyjuice potion > to pretend to be Barty Crouch Jr. for Voldemort, who dosen't know > that Barty had been kissed. By being Voldemort's loyal servant, > Snape can find out anything he wants to about Voldemort's plans. OF > course, this theory kinda falls apart if Fudge is a Death Eater and > told Voldemort about Barty's kiss. Oh well. From rstephens at northwestern.edu Wed Jun 11 16:33:55 2003 From: rstephens at northwestern.edu (rachelbeth007) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 16:33:55 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59996 Merlin wrote: > My prediction is that James and Lilly are not really dead. With all the clues about switching spells throughout the first four books, and then with the funny way that Lupin acts around Harry on a couple of occasions I something is not right. I think they were switched out of there bodies and then hidden away with another secret keeper performing the Fidelius charm because they suspected Peter. This way if they were right about Peter then Voldemort would think they were dead and not continue to look for them. > > Merlin > I think we all need a reality check on this one. I hate to break it to everyone, but James and Lily are dead. People have already posted various evidence that shows they aren't alive (Marauder's Map, coming out of Voldemort's wand, etc), and these are more than enough to prove to me that they are really dead. Sure, it'd be great to see them alive, but I also think their loving sacrifice (not anyone else's in their bodies) for Harry is very integral to his survival and the plot in general. As for my positive prediction: Ron and Hermione will kiss. Before everyone gets in a huff this, let me add that I am not implying anymore with my prediction. They will kiss, but I don't think we'll know what comes next for them just yet. Thus, it won't happen until the last 1/4 of the book. They'll have about a zillion rows about copying homework, Viktor Krum, the Yule Ball, etc, and during one of these arguments it'll just happen. I don't think they'll start flirting (arguing already is flirting for them anyway), and their kiss won't be planned by either party. It'll just happen and then everyone will be confused. I thought for awhile that maybe there will be another ball this year (since the Yule Ball was such a smashing good time) and that Ron will ask Hermione. I think that if this does occur, their kiss *could* happen during or after (not in front of everyone though) the ball, but I still think it will involve some row they have. What happens after this kiss, I dare not speculate. I'm not trying to start a ship debate. However, I think it is inevitable that they will kiss in Book Five. Rachel From brookeshanks at mugglenet.com Wed Jun 11 16:12:37 2003 From: brookeshanks at mugglenet.com (Brooke) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 16:12:37 -0000 Subject: A poll by post - who has the Marauder's Map? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59997 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "GKJPO" wrote: > Just a little more fun to kill time before the big event. I'm > curious who you think has ended up with the Marauder's Map after the > confessional in GoF. Do you choose: > > a. Dumbledore > b. Harry/Ron/Hermione > c. Snape > d. McGonagal > e. Winky > f. Real!Moody > g. Other...explain I am thinking maybe F, C or G. Explain F: Dumbledore probably would have noticed it there in Crouch/Moody's office after the kiss was performed. If Dumbledore discovered it, he probably thought that the map belonged to (the real) Moody because Crouch had been using all of Moody's stuff anyway to fool everyone. Being an ethical person, I think Dumbledore would have put it back with the rest of (the real) Moody's things. Explain C: I have a feeling that ever since PoA when Snape noticed waht the map did in Lupin's office, that he has been dying to get his hands on it. He also knew that Moody/Crouch had it after the encounter w/ Harry on the staircase in GoF. I bet he was looking around for it after Moody/Crouch was apprehended. Explain G: I think another person who is likely to have it would be Filch. After all, it had been stolen out of his office by Fred & George & I am sure Filch had been angry to find it missing & wanted it back. He may have noticed it in Moody/Crouch's office after Crouch was caught & confiscated it before it could fall into the wrong hands again... Just my thoughts! Brooke From brookeshanks at mugglenet.com Wed Jun 11 16:36:45 2003 From: brookeshanks at mugglenet.com (Brooke) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 16:36:45 -0000 Subject: Why redeem Draco? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59998 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dimitar" wrote: > I'm a lurker on this list but I decided to ask this question. Why > redeem Draco? I have read thousands of posts in which posters, > overwhelmingly female, come up with elaborate explanations of his > actions just so he doesn't look so bad, ignoring the much more > probable explanation that he is bad little spoiled brat. Why does he > have to turn to the good side, there is nothing in the four books to > suggest that he has the slightest inclination to do that. The > comparison with Snape doesn't work because he saved Harry in the > first book which showed us that there is more to Snape than meets > the eye, with Draco there is nothing of the sorts. Is this about s > leather pants or because you don't wont to see bad/evil children? If > it's the second then how do you explain Tom Riddle and Malfoy Sr. > which I'm sure was as bad and spoiled as Draco is now although maybe > smarter than his son. > > --Dimitar So far I find myself agreeing with jenny ravenclaw. I think that Lucius IS psychologically abusive to Draco. I see many similarities in the father son relationship between Draco & Lucius and Crouch Junior with Crouch Senior. I have become a big believer that history will be repeating itself and that our present characters have past counterparts (ie: harry=james). The present character will be faced with similar choices as the past characters, but many will choose differently. I think that Draco will eventually rebel against his extremist father and fight on Dumbledore's side, but he will still resent Harry for being such a hero. I think Draco is to Harry as Snape was to James, and that Draco is on his way to becoming just like Snape... anyone else thinking that way as well? Brooke From brookeshanks at mugglenet.com Wed Jun 11 16:26:53 2003 From: brookeshanks at mugglenet.com (Brooke) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 16:26:53 -0000 Subject: Snapes assignment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59999 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jabig33" wrote: > So we have all been wondering about where Snape goes at the end of > GoF. Well, here is a new idea (I hope). Snape uses polyjuice potion > to pretend to be Barty Crouch Jr. for Voldemort, who dosen't know > that Barty had been kissed. By being Voldemort's loyal servant, > Snape can find out anything he wants to about Voldemort's plans. OF > course, this theory kinda falls apart if Fudge is a Death Eater and > told Voldemort about Barty's kiss. Oh well. > > > Abby, popping out of lurkdom to throw an idea out there while waiting > for OoP. I think that is a great idea & it would add a really interesting plotline to have Snape use polyjuice & go to Voldie as a spy for Dumbledore. Cool theory! Another thought... I am not entirely convinced that Snape is part vampire, but I think it is a definite possibility that he might be. If he is, maybe Dumbledore, in anticipation of another major conflict with the dark side, wants Snape to go round up as many vampires as he can to get them fighting on Dumbledore's side. I know it's kind of out there, but I think that Hagrid & Madame Maxime will be doing the same thing for Dumbledore with the giants. Or maybe (still saying if Snape is in fact a vampire) Snape will go spy on Voldie and/or the death eaters while transformed into a bat so that no one will know it's him. I could be totally off base, but you never know with JKR!! Brooke From RonWeasley_is at msn.com Wed Jun 11 16:35:44 2003 From: RonWeasley_is at msn.com (ron_wizardchess_weasley) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 16:35:44 -0000 Subject: Answer to my own Question...(What is DD going to tell Harry?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60000 I was just thinking... in COS DD told Harry that only a true Gryffindor could have pulled the sword of G. Gryffindor out of the sorting hat... So what if DD wants to tell Harry that the reason that You-Know-Who wants to kill him is because Harry really is the true heir/desendent of Godric Gryffindor. And somehow Voldie has knowledge of this and realizes Harry's destiny for greatness and is trying to stop it from happening. Just a rambling theory. Let me know what you think. Ron_WizardChess_Weasley From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 11 17:08:31 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 17:08:31 -0000 Subject: What other curse scar? In-Reply-To: <20030610171404.3467.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60001 >snip debate about Fudge's line "I've [never]heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm bell before" in GoF< Personally, I feel this line only makes sense *without* the "never". Fudge is talking about the possibility that Harry is mentally ill, and the "alarm bell" in question is one which alerts people to this possibility. There is no other context for this line. With the never, you have to read it as "Forgive me Dumbledore, but I've never heard of the curse scars of any of Voldemort's *other* victims acting as alarm bells to his murderous intentions before." Of course not. No-one else in canon so far has a Voldemort curse scar. Therefore, there is no reason for him to mention curse scars in the negative, and so I'm rather tempted to believe that the American, not the British version (the one I've got here is a 20th imprint)is mistaken. Kirstini (please forgive tortured syntax, I've been marking papers all day) From dgagauzov at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 16:26:41 2003 From: dgagauzov at yahoo.com (Dimitar) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 16:26:41 -0000 Subject: Why redeem Draco? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60002 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Heidi Tandy" wrote: > And that's apart from the fact that jkr's given him a father who is, at a minimum, psychologically abusive, as well as a teacher who's physically abusive to him in a way that even other teachers are horrified by. Why would she set up any sympathy for him over the course of the books unless she wanted to leave a door open to him being Something Other Than Evil? > Abusive!Lucius is mainly fanon, plus "My father didn't hug me" is hardly an excuse. The Trio was already going away in the forest when they encountered Draco so he was not such a big help as you seem to think. His supposed concern for Hermione doesn't rime with his last scene in GoF or any other Draco scene. I don't think that all the bad guys will be adults, and who is better teen baddie then Draco. "Dimitar" From bard7696 at aol.com Wed Jun 11 17:13:35 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 17:13:35 -0000 Subject: Why redeem Draco? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60004 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenny_ravenclaw" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dimitar" > wrote: > > I'm a lurker on this list but I decided to ask this question. Why > > redeem Draco? I have read thousands of posts in which posters, > > overwhelmingly female, come up with elaborate explanations of his > > actions just so he doesn't look so bad, ignoring the much more > > probable explanation that he is bad little spoiled brat. Why does > he have to turn to the good side, there is nothing in the four books > to suggest that he has the slightest inclination to do that.> Jenny: > While I don't see Draco as evil, I certainly don't see him as a good guy either. Heidi's defense of Draco is well thought-out, but (and don't hate me, Heidi!) I don't have any sympathy for Draco, I don't think his father is abusive, and I don't really believe he wanted to warn the Trio in GoF in order to help them, either. I think he is> still stinging from Harry's rejection in SS and, in a sort of sick > way, he craves attention from Harry and will do just about anything to get it. Now me: A couple of things. I'm sure Draco could be redeemed. But I don't want it to happen. I have always maintained that there is a lack of interesting evil characters, once you get past V-Mort. Snape is apparently a good guy. Barty is dementorized. Lucius is competent enough, but the rest of the DEs seem like Keystone Kops. Lockhart and Rita are, so far, cartoon characters and Wormtail has a lifedebt to Harry. No, I think we need evil Draco. In fact, I want him to get WORSE, not better. Right now, he's kind of a punching bag. Now, onto this "signs of redemption from Draco" business. First, I don't buy that Harry's rejection has stung Draco all that much. Maybe it humiliated him a touch, but once Harry got put in Gryffindor, it's not like Draco was going to want to be his friend any longer. And let's not try to insinuate that Harry's rejection has made Draco worse. Draco was insulting, racist, elitist, and a brat before he even knew who Harry was and the "getting fitted for robes" scene in SS/PS is the canon for it. Had Harry agreed to be Draco's friend, it's not like Draco turns to the light. I also don't see the "watch out Granger, or you'll be hanging upside down" too scene in GoF as significant as some think it is. I see it as taunting. Regardless, his behavior toward Harry and the others in the remainder of the book convinces me that whatever humanity Draco MIGHT have shown there was a fleeting thing. Darrin -- President of the Bad As He Wants To Be Draco Club From rmatovic at ssk.com Wed Jun 11 17:28:22 2003 From: rmatovic at ssk.com (Rebecca M) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 17:28:22 -0000 Subject: Why redeem Draco? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60005 > So far I find myself agreeing with jenny ravenclaw. [snip] > I have become a big believer that history > will be repeating itself and that our present characters have past > counterparts (ie: harry=james). The present character will be faced > with similar choices as the past characters, but many will choose > differently. I agree with Brooke -- but the most compelling argument why JKR will have Draco turn is that if something like that didn't happen it simply wouldn't be true to one of the overall themes that recurs again and again in the books ... that heritage is not a determining factor, but rather the individual's choice of what to do with the heritage. A Draco who deterministically follows his father's course doesn't fit with the theme. On the other hand, I can see Draco *choosing* to remain on the dark side, but there will have to be a decisive moment when he is faced with a clear choice and decides which side he is on. But I don't think any of this will happen in book 5 ... Draco will remain Harry's foil throughout the series, although his character will deepen and grow more complex so that when he is faced with the fateful decision, we understand all of what goes into it. But there may be earlier crises or key scenes that build up to this ... and one of these would be a scene in which Draco really confronts his father's disdain and inattention. Rebecca From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 11 17:31:30 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 17:31:30 -0000 Subject: OoP SPOILER: Number of New Characters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60008 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." wrote: >the list becomes: > > Arabella Figg > Mundungus Fletcher > Mrs. Longbottom > Mrs. Longbottom > Dedalus Diddle > Mr. Lestrange > Real Moody > Fridwulfa > > So that means JKR will introduce only one new character in OoP! > > Man, we're good, huh? ;-) > > Cindy -- betting this single new character will be female and will > have something to do with Voldemort's first reign of terror Kirstini, wriggling in her seat and waving her hand in the air, wants to add: Yeee-sss! The new DADA teacher! Or are we all now accepting that it's going to be Arabella Figg? With "a personality like poisoned honey"? That that dotty, smelly old lady who has worked to protect Harry all his life is going to turn out to be essentially a female Snape (better clarify this bit: I'm not trying to suggest that anything much about Severus reminds me of honey, poisoned or otherwise. For Arabella Figg to be the new DADA teacher and even vaguely fit the "poisoned honey" criteria, she would have to be nasty, but working for Harry's good, like Snape)? "Poisoned honey" surely suggests someone apparently sweet, ultimately treacherous. Why would Arabella have been protecting Harry all this time if she can turn around and betray him just like almost every other blinking DADA teacher/old confidante of Dumbledore's has done so far? I think you should count the new DADA teacher as a seperate voice. [Unless she's mute? Had her tongue ripped out by an Auror (Daddy Longbottom?) and has spent her life vowing bloody revenge on his/her entire lineage? Oh dear. I think I need a lie-down] Kirstini From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jun 11 17:24:14 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 17:24:14 -0000 Subject: Redemption Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60011 A fair proportion of the posters appear to be arguing about or hoping for the redemption of one or other of the current list of baddies. Why? Enough of this namby-pambyism! We need baddies!. Voldomort, ( so far ) isn't so much a baddy as an elemental force, the lurker in the shadows, a deus ex machina of evil. But I think we need baddies we can identify as people. The old fashioned moustache twirling rackrent landlord who throws the orphans out into the snow on Christmas Eve. "Father, father, how can you be so cruel?" "Practice, my dear, practice." It's so satisfying when they get their come-uppance! And it's so unsatisfying when they become all sweetness and light and see the error of their ways. Like too much candy-floss. JKR is ( I hope ), writing an epic of good and evil, not a self improvement tract. Since she has said that the series gets much darker we can only wait with bated breath for the double-cross, the knife in the back and the defeats that come before victory. Whew. Had to get that off my chest. Hope I didn't upset too many fans out there. Kneasy who hisses pantomine villans From bak42 at netzero.net Wed Jun 11 18:16:50 2003 From: bak42 at netzero.net (bak42) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 11:16:50 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A poll by post - who has the Marauder's Map? References: Message-ID: <001f01c33045$a4502ba0$b9dd3a41@timbecto> No: HPFGUIDX 60013 I think G, it's either in a desk drawer in the DADA teacher's office or in a compartment of Moody's trunk. My reasoning is that the map was mentioned but never actually seen during the veritaserum scene. ---------------------------------------- Brandon -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- GU d- s+:-- a-- C++>$ U? L(-) E? W++ N? o? K? w+ !O M-- V? PS(+) PE Y PGP- t++ 5++ X- R tv++ b+++ DI+++ D+ G e(*) h! !r !z+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ----- Original Message ----- From: Brooke To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 9:12 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A poll by post - who has the Marauder's Map? --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "GKJPO" wrote: > Just a little more fun to kill time before the big event. I'm > curious who you think has ended up with the Marauder's Map after the > confessional in GoF. Do you choose: > > a. Dumbledore > b. Harry/Ron/Hermione > c. Snape > d. McGonagal > e. Winky > f. Real!Moody > g. Other...explain I am thinking maybe F, C or G. Explain F: Dumbledore probably would have noticed it there in Crouch/Moody's office after the kiss was performed. If Dumbledore discovered it, he probably thought that the map belonged to (the real) Moody because Crouch had been using all of Moody's stuff anyway to fool everyone. Being an ethical person, I think Dumbledore would have put it back with the rest of (the real) Moody's things. Explain C: I have a feeling that ever since PoA when Snape noticed waht the map did in Lupin's office, that he has been dying to get his hands on it. He also knew that Moody/Crouch had it after the encounter w/ Harry on the staircase in GoF. I bet he was looking around for it after Moody/Crouch was apprehended. Explain G: I think another person who is likely to have it would be Filch. After all, it had been stolen out of his office by Fred & George & I am sure Filch had been angry to find it missing & wanted it back. He may have noticed it in Moody/Crouch's office after Crouch was caught & confiscated it before it could fall into the wrong hands again... Just my thoughts! Brooke Yahoo! 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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jhlupin at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 18:18:46 2003 From: jhlupin at hotmail.com (jhlupin) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 18:18:46 -0000 Subject: Fidelius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60014 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maria wrote: while the Fidelius Charm worked, I think even Sirius sort of forgot > > temporally where they lived. But when Pettigrew revealed the secret to > > Voldemort, the charm ceased to work, and everyone instantly knew where the > > Potters lived. >kelly responded: > I agree with the statements I have been reading that say that everyone > forgot where the Potters lived until Peter divulged the secret to Voldemort. LH: I think that the FC is best understood as concealing the identity of a person or persons from all but the secret keeper. My interpretation is that Lily and James could not be identified by any other person at any location, Godric's Hollow or otherwise. They could walk into Diagon Alley in the height of and not be recognized. It seems unlikely that FC would the knowledge of of a particular or address from every mind in the wizarding world. How long would they have to hide inside their home? Are they under until there no longer exists a threat against them? Unlikely. Instead, they go on about their lives unrecognized by all but the SK. Thus when the secret is revealed, no is sent out to every wizard in the world, but now those once hidden can be recognized, spied upon, found and killed. This would explain the timing of Sirius' actions and why he did not apparate to Godric's Hollow when the Potter's were betrayed. He did not suspect the betrayal until Wormtail was missing. He did not immediately apparate at Godric's Hollow because he may not have been certain the Potters were there. JHL From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 11 18:20:48 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 18:20:48 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: AOL snippet of OOP (NO SPOILERS in this ADMIN) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60015 Greetings from Hexquarters! It has been announced that the snippet released by AOL of book five was NOT APPROVED BY JKR's PUBLISHERS. This means that it is covered by the legal injunction banning any publication of Book V before midnight BST June 21 2003. Therefore, all posts quoting or discussing the text of this snippet have been deleted by the Administration Team. Any further posts discussing or quoting parts of this snippet will also be deleted. This is not in order to spoil anyone's fun. We are in danger of being in contempt of court if we do not make every effort to comply with a legal injunction. Individual posters should note that they may also be in contempt if they knowingly publish part of Book V on a public forum. We apologise to members who will receive the deleted posts via individual e-mail or via digest. It is not technically possible for us to remove posts from digests or recall posts that have already been e-mailed to listmembers. Pippy Elf For the Administration Team From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 11 18:43:45 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 18:43:45 -0000 Subject: Felinia's Brilliant Fudge Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60016 I've just come up with my first ever acronym for this one. It's a bit ropey, but I'm feeling rather proud of myself for having successfully wasted fifteen minutes so tolerate me, please? >drumroll< OF LICE AND MADMEN: Ostrich!Fudge Lets In Calamity Everywhere ANd Dies. Malfoy Achieves Dominance: Muggles Encounter Nastiness. Ta-dah! Now I'm going to try one for CreevyMuching!Lupin.... Kirstini From yellows at aol.com Wed Jun 11 18:58:31 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:58:31 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco Message-ID: <1d9.b6cc306.2c18d5d7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60019 In a message dated 6/11/2003 6:49:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, Amanda writes: > I am, however, fairly sure neither Crabbe NOR Goyle will become the > next Dark Lord. God forbid; the Wizarding World would be in even > worse trouble than it is with Voldemort on the loose! Oh, I don't know. It might be much nicer for the Dark Lord to be a bumbling fool. He certainly wouldn't be very efficient. :) Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yellows at aol.com Wed Jun 11 19:01:53 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 15:01:53 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] What's in a Name? Message-ID: <1e0.ad87916.2c18d6a1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60020 In a message dated 6/11/2003 6:50:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, Kira November writes: > "Yet it is sometimes possible to read between the lines of their bare > accounts and imagine how it must have been, say, on the day in 814 when the > fearsome Khan Krum, after a whole year of preparation, led a huge army south > > from his territory in Thrace to besiege Constantinople." > > and this: > > "But Krum has defeated three Roman emperors in succession on the > battlefield, and drunk wine from the silver-lined skull of Nicephorus, the > last of them." This goes along exactly with what I predict for Krum. I really see him as a mover-and-shaker in the Dark WW, though he may be reluctant at first to take on this role. But eventually, I believe his background and heritage will be revealed and he'll decide to embrace what he's really destined to become -- a Death Eater. :) Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jhlupin at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 19:06:45 2003 From: jhlupin at hotmail.com (jhlupin) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 19:06:45 -0000 Subject: Nitwit, Blubber, Oddment, Tweak... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60021 Surely these AD chose to commemorate Harry's arrival at Hogwarts and his Sorting (SS/PS) have deeper meaning than an expression of his . They must be a JKR clue... Nitwit: a slow-witted or foolish person. As Hagrid makes a few errors in judgement and says a few things he should not, he is a good candidate. Confunded Neville would appear to be a good candidate as well. Blubber: to weep noisily and without restraint, or to contort or disfigure with weeping. Hagrid has been blubbering in each of the four first books. Neville's life has a secret sadness to it, as do the personal histories of many of the characters. This could be a general clue of a looming sadness... Oddment: an odd article, a bit or remnant, an article belonging to a broken or complete set. Interestingly, also refers to an individual non-text portion of a book (ie: the binding...). Hagrid is in a sense, a remnant of the near extinct race of giants, who have been killing themselves off. He retains the remnants of his fractured wand in his pink umbrella. Being half giant, he would be considered an odd article certainly. Neville, by virtue of his memory -charmed and broken mind, could qualify as well. The second meaning of this is that this clue relates to what must be a significant part (or plot development) of the septology. Tweak: to seize and pull with a jerk and twist, to pull or pinch the nose. We all know to follow JKRs nose clues - there are lots of them. Is she tweaking ours here? Why are some broken noses irreperable (Ludo Bagman's and Mad Eye Moody's) while others are fixed easily (Victor Krum's)? Nasal injury sustained by putting your nose where it does not belong may be irreversible. Neville obviously knows something about his parents capture and torture that he was made to forget, but think it is more likely that Hagrid is in for some trouble with his mission to the Giants. Either Hagrid or Neville will die in OoP. I doubt it will be Neville, because I feel there is too much of his story yet to be told, and I believe he will become a powerful ally to Harry. Hagrid, on the other hand, has become to Harry even more than the Weasley's have. His death will be hardest of all on Harry, who may mistakenly think he can save Hagrid by travelling to the , where he will meet Hagrid and his . I love the theory of the Erised-like room that will transport Harry. AD mentioned all those bedpans for some reason. I further believe that what he finds out in the Land of the Dead will lead to the conversation with AD where all is exposed, including the real fate of James Potter, of which we have very little factual information. Remember, a shadow of the body of James emerged from LV wand. If his mind had been switched to another body, James intellect would survive even if his body were to perish. And as JKR has said, we would never a living James (or Lily) Potter... JHL From Bratschen-Spieler at carolina.rr.com Wed Jun 11 18:08:38 2003 From: Bratschen-Spieler at carolina.rr.com (blind_nil_date) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 18:08:38 -0000 Subject: OOP: What is Dumbledore going to tell Harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60022 I can't imagine that JKR let that tidbit from OOP out as a premonition of full disclosure. She likes to tease, taunt, and give partial truths. Therefore, I think that Dumbledore will begin to tell Harry everything, but they will be interrupted and we will not find out all. We'll find out a little, but not everything. It would certainly be in her style. "Blind nil date" From yellows at aol.com Wed Jun 11 19:17:55 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 15:17:55 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death Eaters IQ Message-ID: <144.136152ab.2c18da63@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60023 In a message dated 6/11/2003 12:09:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, Melanie writes: > That brings up an interesting point though, does Voldie only recruit > intelligent people or does he recruit anyone willing to support him. I am inclined > to think that he lets all who want to join up with him do so..but they may > or may not be given any jobs to do. But I do have to wonder about the Death > Eaters IQ given that Wormtail has such a high position in the eyes of the Dark > Lord. Well, I assume (with no canon to support my assumption) that Crabbe and Goyle's relations in the Death Eater-group are as slow-witted as they, so I agree that Voldemort probably doesn't discriminate based on IQ. But Wormtail, IMO, is a different situation. He was simply the only one stupid and weak enough to still be afraid of Voldemort after all these years. He was the only one who came running back, so Voldemort had little choice in the matter. Surely, Voldemort would have preferred a smarter, more capable assistant, but Wormtail was the only one who came. Voldemort treats Wormtail like dirt, though. I wonder if he treats all of his followers badly, or if he's just... cranky after his long vacation? :) Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alexpie at aol.com Wed Jun 11 19:19:41 2003 From: alexpie at aol.com (alexpie at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 15:19:41 EDT Subject: Harry's summer romance? Message-ID: <116.247fabf9.2c18dacd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60024 I was wondering whether Harry might have acquired a Muggle girlfriend over the summer. He does go for long walks to avoid the Dursleys and, at fifteen, what could be more natural than to meet a girl in the park, the library, whatever... Perhaps the opening sequence, with Harry stretched out in the flowerbed, has to do with Harry wondering how on earth he is going to break the news to Piers Polkiss's sister (or whomever) what he is and where he goes to school, or even whether he should keep it a secret altogether. Ba, always happy to make things a bit more confusing [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mommiedragon at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 18:49:12 2003 From: mommiedragon at yahoo.com (Kathy Nava) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 11:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death Eaters IQ In-Reply-To: <20030611154538.95678.qmail@web20711.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030611184912.61853.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60025 I replied: That brings up an interesting point though, does Voldie only recruit intelligent people or does he recruit anyone willing to support him. I am inclined to think that he lets all who want to join up with him do so..but they may or may not be given any jobs to do. But I do have to wonder about the Death Eaters IQ given that Wormtail has such a high position in the eyes of the Dark Lord. ~Melanie Kathy: In GoF US PB edition pg 651 it says: "And Here" - Voldemort moved on to the two largest hooded figures - we have Crabbe... you will do better thie time. will you not, Crabbe? And you, Goyle? The Death Eaters IQ must not have to be very have if the sons are just like their fathers in the IQ department. I think that Voldemort does give them jobs but not very important jobs. Kathy --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 19:24:52 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 19:24:52 +0000 Subject: Narcissa Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60026 changing the subject line to reflect and acknowledge Constance's mention that she wasn't looking for a direct one-on-one correlation between HP and Arthur. ;-) >Rhianyn yawns and stretches. > >Yes, I would agree and 'pon reflection think it may even be hinted at. >Draco >is clearly Narcissa's darling. She doesn't want him to go too far away to >school (Durmstrang) she sends him goodies via owl constantly. If there's >little >in the way of affection between her and Lucius I can see where Draco would >become the center of her life. And Lucius may well resent that hence his >treatment of Draco. > Draco is probably the only remaining bridge between the two of them. There's speculation and even acrimony on what Molly Weasley does with her day? What about Narcissa? Although perhaps in the WW there are "witches who lunch". ;-) >I do still like the idea of a James/Lily/Lucius/Narcissa quadrangle but >suspect you're right in thinking it unlikely. Might be a bit too adult a >theme. I >do wonder if Narcissa and Lily were at Hogwarts at the same time tho. And >if >they were friends at some point. Or maybe even relatives. > Mmm - probably Narcissa was at Hogwarts. I doubt the actual education was important to Lucius or his family, but I'm sure the prestige of being at the best was. I'm not big on the quadrangle thing. :-) I'm still solidly backing a love link between Snape and Lily that found awful expression in feeling that, but for his poor choices, and perhaps for that interfering James, Snape feels he could have saved Lily from death, and even that had she not rejected him, he wouldn't have followed the DE path. :-) I suspect there is an entire roiling knot of worms around "a ruined life" with those three. Although your quad proposal might have more *interest* and be a little less "ordinary epic" in nature. :-) The theories people come up with on here always have the ability to amaze me, regardless of whether I personally feel they're more or less likely. :-) Felinia _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 19:28:07 2003 From: Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com (newdella) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 19:28:07 -0000 Subject: Why redeem Draco? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60027 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brooke" wrote: > > So far I find myself agreeing with jenny ravenclaw. I think that > Lucius IS psychologically abusive to Draco. I see many similarities > in the father son relationship between Draco & Lucius and Crouch > Junior with Crouch Senior. I have become a big believer that history > will be repeating itself and that our present characters have past > counterparts (ie: harry=james). The present character will be faced > with similar choices as the past characters, but many will choose > differently. I think that Draco will eventually rebel against his > extremist father and fight on Dumbledore's side, but he will still > resent Harry for being such a hero. I think Draco is to Harry as > Snape was to James, and that Draco is on his way to becoming just > like Snape... anyone else thinking that way as well? > > Brooke Rosebeth (me): Brooke, I agree that Draco's father is abusive. I tend to think that explains a lot about Draco's behavor. While I see the historical parallels that your drawing I think there is a huge difference between Draco and Snape. We know that Snape turned against LV to work for DD. I just don't see Draco making those similar kinds of choices. Now granted we don't know what prompted Snapes change in behavor, but with the information we do have I don't think Draco has it in him to make the same choice. Rosebeth From Estama02 at aol.com Wed Jun 11 19:07:13 2003 From: Estama02 at aol.com (Estama02 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 15:07:13 EDT Subject: Best lines in the book Message-ID: <116.247fe878.2c18d7e1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60028 Here's some of my favorite quotes: "If you made a better rat than a human, that's not much to boast about." -Sirius Black (in P0A) "There you go, Harry! You weren't being thick after all -- you were just showing moral fiber!" -Ron (in GOF) "HARRY THIS IS NO TIME TO BE A GENTLEMAN! KNOCK HER OFF HER BROOM IF YOU HAVE TO!" -Wood (In PoA) ~ ES (first post, i'm new here) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From brookeshanks at mugglenet.com Wed Jun 11 19:21:33 2003 From: brookeshanks at mugglenet.com (Brooke) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 19:21:33 -0000 Subject: Some people can be wierd about their pets... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60029 I was just thinking about Nagini, Voldie's snake. This could be way off, but I wonder if Nagini could be a baby basilisk? Maybe the basilisk's stare is only fatal after it has become an adult? But even if he's just a regular snake, I wonder if there IS anything special about him? An animagus? I am sure there is something more that we don't yet know about Fawkes. Although the Phoenix is not the Gryffindor mascot, maybe there is something more to the respective pets of Dumbledore and Voldie. I could see a future battle between Fawkes & Nagini. Some snakes are prey for certain species of birds. Perhaps they were once the pets of Godric & Salazar? Anyone else have any theories about these two? Brooke From brookeshanks at mugglenet.com Wed Jun 11 19:27:15 2003 From: brookeshanks at mugglenet.com (Brooke) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 19:27:15 -0000 Subject: OOP: What is Dumbledore going to tell Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60031 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "blind_nil_date" wrote: > I can't imagine that JKR let that tidbit from OOP out as a > premonition of full disclosure. She likes to tease, taunt, and give > partial truths. Therefore, I think that Dumbledore will begin to tell > Harry everything, but they will be interrupted and we will not find > out all. We'll find out a little, but not everything. It would > certainly be in her style. > > > "Blind nil date" I agree with you. But I think that rather than being interrupted, Dumbledore will tell everything Harry that he knows... but I am not convinced that Dumbledore knows EVERYTHING. Remember how James & Sirius were able to hide that they had become animagi from Dumbledore? Plus, Dumbledore did not know that Peter & Sirius had switched as secret keeper, right? (er... I could be wrong about that one, I am forgeting canon all of a sudden!) I think there are things in the past, especially concerning the night the potters were killed, that only one or two people may know the whole truth about. I think the big questions are WHO knows the truth and WHY has it been kept a secret for so long?? Brooke From yellows at aol.com Wed Jun 11 19:34:42 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 15:34:42 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Harry's summer romance? Message-ID: <105.305bc96c.2c18de52@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60032 In a message dated 6/11/2003 3:24:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, Ba writes: > Perhaps the opening sequence, with Harry stretched out in the flowerbed, > has > to do with Harry wondering how on earth he is going to break the news to > Piers > Polkiss's sister (or whomever) what he is and where he goes to school, or > even > whether he should keep it a secret altogether. You know, I sometimes wonder if the boy lying in the flower bed is not Dudley. What if he and Harry have just fought outside and Harry had to sock him with his fist? Or better, spark him with his wand? :) Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gromm at cards.lanck.net Wed Jun 11 18:06:38 2003 From: gromm at cards.lanck.net (Maria Gromova) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:06:38 +0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: best lines in the book? References: Message-ID: <022601c33052$124e9fe0$2e42983e@rcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 60033 Brooke wrote: >But to give you a start, one of my favorite quotes in the book is not > something that is said by a character - it is the Hogwarts motto > (that is in Latin, but I don't have it in front of me). In English, > it translates "Never Tickle a Sleeping Dragon" Seems pretty sensible > to me! Maria: It does to me too. It is one of my favourite lines as well. The Latin is: "Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus". I thought it was very good the very first time I saw it. From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 19:46:28 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 12:46:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP SPOILER/FF: Opening Lines of OoP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030611194628.19272.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60034 --- "Cindy wrote: > You know, you take the > opening lines about the > flower bed and write what you think JKR will > write. Or write > something amusing. > "The hottest day of the summer so far was > drawing to a close and a > drowsy silence lay over the large, square > houses of Privet Drive... > The only person left outside was a teenage boy > who was lying flat on > his back in a flowerbed outside number four." Lynn: Harry looked down from his bedroom window grinning. Dudley really should know by now that Harry isn't allowed to do magic during the summer. Harry stepped away from the window confident that there would be no bars on the windows or locks on the door this year. Dudley didn't even bother crying when he backed out of the window and fell. Of course, Harry didn't think Dudley could actually fit through the window, but that Smelting's diet must be doing some good. There had been a definite change in attitude at 4 Privet Drive. Harry wasn't sure whether it was something in the letter the owl had delivered to Uncle Vernon or if it had more to do with that special parent/teacher conference Uncle Vernon and Aunt Petunia had at Smeltings. All he knew was that things had definitely changed for the better. Harry could eat anything he wanted and Aunt Petunia had actually taken him to buy some new clothes that fit him. Well, she did take him to the second-hand store but it was definitely a change for the better. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 20:12:52 2003 From: Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com (newdella) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 20:12:52 -0000 Subject: Draco In-Reply-To: <1d9.b6cc306.2c18d5d7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60035 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/11/2003 6:49:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, Amanda writes: > > > I am, however, fairly sure neither Crabbe NOR Goyle will become the > > next Dark Lord. God forbid; the Wizarding World would be in even > > worse trouble than it is with Voldemort on the loose! > > Oh, I don't know. It might be much nicer for the Dark Lord to be a bumbling > fool. He certainly wouldn't be very efficient. :) > > Brief Chronicles > > Rosebeth (me): IMHO, the problem with Crabbe or Goyle (assuming young Crabbe and Goyle) becoming the next Dark Lord is that they are puppets. And puppets cannot act on their own, they have to be controlled. So, who is the puppetter? Who else but our beloved Draco! Now that's scary. Rosebeth From mplatz at ansoft.com Wed Jun 11 19:54:09 2003 From: mplatz at ansoft.com (melodychef) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 19:54:09 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60036 I've been waffling for weeks about the death in OoP. So I'm going to shut my eyes and make a decision. I predict that Neville will die in the fifth book. The fifth book will be long enough to give us more background about Neville. We already like him. He's shown he can make tough decisions when he has to. He could and would sacrifice himself for a higher cause. His death would scare everyone. It would make Harry sad, and possibly feel guilty. BUT it wouldn't throw Harry into the pits of despair. If Hagrid dies, half the humor of the books is taken away immediately. And JKR has two more books to write. I don't think she's out to write super depressing stories. So she's going to keep Hagrid around for a while longer. I think Hagrid is going to die eventually, but I think it's too great a shock for the fifth book. Alright! I've done it. Now I can't wait to see how JKR destroys all my theories! Melody (newbie) From pegruppel at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 21:00:55 2003 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (pegruppel) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 21:00:55 -0000 Subject: Some people can be wierd about their pets... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60037 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brooke" wrote: > I was just thinking about Nagini, Voldie's snake. This could be way > off, but I wonder if Nagini could be a baby basilisk? Maybe the > basilisk's stare is only fatal after it has become an adult? Me: I suspect that a basilisk is lethal from the moment it hatches. All of the mythology sources I checked (print and electronic) make no mention of a basilisk needing to mature. I think Nagini is some type of venoumous serpent. "Nag" is the name of one of the cobras in the Kipling story "Riki-Tiki-Tavi." And "Naja naja" is the Latin binomial for several cobras (subspecies get another name tacked onto the first two) of the Indian subcontinent (that's an abbreviated description). Although JKR said that Frank saw a diamond pattern on the snake as it slitered past him, I think it was shadows on her (Nagini is female) back. There are a few venomous snakes in that part of Europe, but none of them get as big as Nagini is supposed to be. A king cobra is the largest of the venomous snakes. But if it were, I think we'd have heard about the classic rearing up and hooding that these snakes perform. It seems from Voldie and Peter's conversation that Voldie has been subsisting on snake venom (yuck). (All from OOP, American addition) > Brooke: > But even if he's just a regular snake, I wonder if there IS anything special about him? An animagus? I am sure there is something more > that we don't yet know about Fawkes. > Me: I think Nagini is Voldie's best friend. She "nursed" him, so to speak. And I doubt that any human likes him as well as his snake pals. Brooke: > Although the Phoenix is not the Gryffindor mascot, maybe there is > something more to the respective pets of Dumbledore and Voldie. I > could see a future battle between Fawkes & Nagini. Some snakes are > prey for certain species of birds. Perhaps they were once the pets > of Godric & Salazar? > > Anyone else have any theories about these two? Me: I doubt that Nagini and Fawkes were ever the pets of the two founders. But I have noticed something, and haven't seen anyone else mention it. I'm still new to the list, so that may not mean much. But. In COS, JKR clearly states that the basilisk is "King of Serpents" (COS, American ed., p. 290). I can't recall where, and right now I can't seem to find the reference, but I have seen the phoenix referred to as the "King of the Birds." This would certainly fit very nicely into a grand showdown between the forces of evil (basilisk) and the forces of good (phoenix). On the other hand, maybe we've had a preview of the outcome in the battle between Fawkes and the Basilisk in COS, hmmm? Peg, a librarian, who is now off to find the citation for "King of the Birds" because it's making her nuts. From mbush at lainc.com Wed Jun 11 20:45:50 2003 From: mbush at lainc.com (mtwelovett) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 20:45:50 -0000 Subject: best lines in the books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60038 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theultimatesen" wrote: > I don't have the specific line because I don't have the book in front > of me, but I like the "I like a bit of breeze around my privates" > line. =o) > > Sen I LOVE that passage about the nightgown argument in the water line at the World Cup!!! I laugh hysterically every time I read it!!! That said, one of my other favorite lines is: "Not now thanks, I'm pickling slugs" from the tiny sleeping wizard on the knight bus in PoA. It seems to have no relavence to anything, but it is just wonderfully fun. But then I also find the scene in CoS where Ron belches slugs to be really amusing as well... I'm not sure why since I don't like them. Mary From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 20:56:48 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 20:56:48 -0000 Subject: Biggest suprise in Book 5 ? In-Reply-To: <001501c32fd3$c1a61d80$89cafea9@yale> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60040 <<<--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "yale sam wahl" wrote: ...I think that Hermione is the most likely candidate to leave the trio...Hermione went to the Yule Ball with Viktor Krum, who is a favorite student of Karkaroff, the Death Eater who fled Voldemort. So although, there will be a death in Book 5, that death may not be what creates the biggest buzz in the Potter universe.>>> The Sergeant Majorette says: Yeah!! (Only I think Viktor Krum will turn out to be a victim; maybe Karkarov is linked to his parents.) This scenario allows for 1. Ron to come to the front as Harry goes after Hermione; 2. Neville and Ginny to come off the bench; and 3. the staggering length of the book to be explained as *two* 'trios' (Harry/Hermione/Viktor and Ron/Ginny/Neville) operate in parallel stories. Oh, this is ridiculous! My head is exploding! I can't wait! --JDR From mcnerthney at msn.com Wed Jun 11 20:54:28 2003 From: mcnerthney at msn.com (Kristen Willard) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 13:54:28 -0700 Subject: My one Prediction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60041 I'm new here, so please excuse me if you have already discussed this. I believe Prof. Trelawney's first correct prediction was that the heir of Gryffindor would end the descendancy of Slytherin. V. would have to kill Harry in order to continue living (his main goal). Perhaps she told this only to V. and Dumbledore's spy (Snape?) found out about it and the plan to attack the Potters, and relayed it back to Dumbledore. I agree that we won't find out everything in OotP, as that fateful night is the driving force behind the series. Remember how you felt after reading the last page of GoF? Counting the hours, Kristi _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From Kadoo96801 at aol.com Wed Jun 11 18:30:09 2003 From: Kadoo96801 at aol.com (Kadoo96801 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:30:09 EDT Subject: Moody,Hagrid, Sinistra, Perkins, and whatnot Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60042 Hi everyone! I haven't posted here at all yet, but i've been collecting some recent thoughts i have on all of the HP banter going on around here...and I can see everyone's becoming ohh-so-excited and anxious for OoP...so bear with me... ----Pertaining to GoF...Someone posted very recently about keeping the real Moody alive, because the Polyjuice Potion would not have worked for Barty Crouch Jr....but this got me thinking and the question i have is Why couldn't the real Moody fight the Imperius Curse? "I packed up Moody's clothes and Dark detectors, put them in the trunk with Moody, and set off for Hogwarts. I kept him alive, under the Imperius Curse." -Barty Crouch Jr. (U.S. edition, pg. 689) In other instances where we hear about the Imperius curse, it seems that it is not that incredibly difficult to fight off for a powerful wizard. Isn't Moody a powerful wizard? Obviously, we know Harry as a youngin' learned to fight the curse after three or four tries, and Barty Crouch Jr. was able to fight off the curse. It seems to me that Mad-eye Moody, being the incredible Auror that he is, should have been able to fight off one of the three Unforgivable Curses the DEs used so often. I just think it's odd that he couldn't escape the very thing he wanted to fight, as well as not being able to get out of his own magical trunk. I don't really know if it's significant or not, but possibly Alastor Moody is not really as powerful as we think he is. ----Pertaining to CoS...A question I've always had when reading the books is Can anyone explain why Hagrid was in Knockturn Alley in Chapter Four? Hagrid says he was there for flesh-eating slug repellant, but i still find such a dark and evil place like Knockturn Alleysuspicious. Perhaps Dumbledore knew Harry would end up in Knockturn Aller, and sent Hagrid to rescue him or something...this would prove that Dumbledore truly is always watching Harry and basically knows of everything that goes on around the wizarding world. Any other thoughts on this, because for some reason I don't trust Hagrid's excuse. ----Pertaining to GoF...In Chapter 33, Voldemort says to Harry, "My father lived there. My mother, a witch who lived here in this village, fell in love with him. But he abandoned her when she told him what she was...He didn't like magic, my father...He left her and returned to his Muggle parents before I was ever born." Well, according to this quote, Tom Riddle Sr. sounds an awful lot like Aunt Petunia. But the question that truly bugs me and that I think will become significant is What happened in those years after Tom Riddle Sr. had left his wife and son? I don't know how it all connects, but I bet there is some way that Dumbledore, Petunia, Tom Riddle Sr., Tom Riddle Jr., James, Lilly, and of course Harry are all connected!? We know Dumbledore and Lilly have the same type of auburn hair (I beleive the Weasley red hair is one of JKR's red herrings), Tom Riddle Jr had crazy black hair like Harry, which means their fathers looked alike (or were they the same person?????? Voldemort did seek revenge and killed James as well as his father! AHHHH! What? No, nevermind...Tom Sr. was a wizard -hater), we still no nothing about Harry's MIA family from the Mirror of Erised, and I think there's much to learn in particular about Harry's grandparents, Tom Sr. has the same feelings about wizards as Petunia Dursley, and there are still those all-important green eyes (Salazar Slytherin eyes??) along with "Is Harry related to Godric Gryffindor??"...how do all of these connections tie together? It's mind-boggling! Also, is there some way that Harry can be a descendent of both Salazar Slytherin AND Godric Gryffindor (I still beleive that both Lilly and James have prominant wizarding blood in both of their ancestries)? Is the boy wizard the all-powerful culmination of two of the most powerful wizards ever? This would explain why Voldemort needs Harry dead...because he is not only the direct descendent of Gryffindor, but he is also to succeed Slytherin. He power would not only rival Voldemorts, it would completely destroy Voldemort and dethrone him as the reigning heir. If this is true, Harry would have sooo many incredible powers inherited form both Slytherin and Gryffindor. And the sorting hat second guessing Harry's house would be explained, along with other things. Perhaps Harry will have to choose between Salazar's Evil tendencies and Gryffindor's Goodness...this would be the ultimate and final battle of good versus evil. Voldemort would be destroyed and good would prevail. What if, deep inside of his powers, Harry has the ability to choose Good and wipe out all evil in the wizarding world??? Wow...that is spine-tingling. Any other thoughts (sorry to have brought up Harry's ancestry AGAIN)??? Also, Sorry to break it to you, but James and Lilly are dead. Get over it. They're not coming back. Everyone knows they're dead. No, Lilly is not Petunia or Mrs. Figg. No, James is not Snape or Lupin or Sirius or whomever. They are both dead and gone. They came out of Voldemort's wand like Cedric and Frank Bryce. The end. They are dead. ----Pertaining to OoP and beyond...Right now I'm starting to place every character into the "good" or "evil" categories, who will be beneficial to the dark side and who will fight alongside Dumbledore. I Think that Snape will remain faithful to Dumbledore, because who really wants to be on Dumbledore's bad side anyways? I agree with so many people that Percy will be forced to go against his family, and support the MoM, whether it be Fudge or L.Malfoy or whomever. Fudge will definately turn out to be an evil wizard, for SOO MANY obvious reasons (wait, no, He Is probably NOT a DE, but maybe he'll just end up helping the dark side in the end, or just stand as a barrier for Dumbledore's side...). The Dark Force Defense League, as well as a recupperated Gilderoy Lockhart will stand firm right beside a hifalutin politiky Fudge in not trusting Harry and Dumbledore. Karkaroff will be back in book 5, and possibly take up his rank as DE once again. Oliver Wood will be back, and still a true Gryffindor, although he plays for a possibly bad news quidditch team. Draco may not be necessarily evil...he seems like a woosey anyways. The giants will go with Hagrid and Madam Malkin, and the Dementors will help the Dark arts. Krum will probably, in his best interest, stick with Hermione and denounce Karkaroff. If Hermione releases Rita Skeeter like she said she would, that could end horribly because Rita will want revenge on those at Hogwarts like Hermione, Harry, Dumbledore...and we all know about the power of the press. And of course,St.Mungo's is bad news. Anyone important I missed? OK, well that was fun...those are just all of my predictions for the forthcoming war. Anyone care to disagree or agree? -----Pertaining to OoP and beyond... What's the deal with Professor Sinistra???? We don't know too much about her, but her name does sound an awful lot like "SINISTER". As Professor of astronomy, it seems that she probably has seen exactly the same things the centaurs are reading in the stars. Although McGonnagall doesn't beleive in "fortune telling" (could not trusting the wisdom of others be McGonnagall's dire weakness?), Sinistra could be a valuable key for either Dumbledore or Voldemort in predicting the future, and figuring out what to watch for. She would have somewhat inside information for the forthcoming wizard war based on the stars. Just like the centaurs know an awful lot but decide to not mess with fate and keep to themselves, Sinistra could be just as informed about the future but choose to share her knowledge. So which side will she take? I predict she may be evil. Although she works at Hogwarts, she is rarely seen in company with the rest of the staff. According to her name, maybe she has Sinister intentions. Also, in GoF when McGonagall and Snape and others think Crouch/Moody is a bit wacko, Sinistra is the witch to befriend him and dance with him at the Yule Ball. Could Sinistra have known that Mad-eye was really Barty Crouch Jr. in disguise? And could she have been helping him? AND, Perhaps Professor Sinistra is the very person Voldemort has planted at Hogwarts to do his dirty work. Uhh-ohh. The evidence is there. Interpret it however you wish. I'm certain that Sinistra will become a much more important character in the books to come. Anyone know anything else about this mysterious teacher?? -----Pertaining to Neville...He owns Trevor, an amphibian, his uncle's name is Uncle Algie- like Algae, and Crouch/Moody gives him a book on water plants. Coincidences? I think not. ----Pertaining to animagi...We all know that Dumbledore is most likely an animagi. Also, Snape is constantly described as batlike and living in a dungeon and whatnot. Could Snape be a bat animagus or even a vampire? (Also, could someone explain to me what MAGIC DISHWASHER means...people keep saying it around here...I think it has something to do with Snape, but otherwise, I am clueless) I highly doubt that Mrs.Figg is Crookshanks because she is not with Hermione in the summer, instead, she acts as a Muggle and watches over Harr (also, i really dont think there is cross-gender transfiguration). BUT, I think Crookshanks is indeed an animagus. Isn't it possible that Perkins,. the guy that works in the department of Muggle Artifacts or whatever-its-called with Arthur Weasley is Crookshanks? First, both Crookshanks and Perkins are described as old and kind of gruff. Also, as we know, there really arent a such thing as coincidences is these books, but it is ironic that the tent that Perkins lends Mr.Weasley for the QWC does in fact smell and look like Mrs.Figg's house. What if Mrs. Figg and Perkins live together, as in, he is one of her cats during the summer to watch Harry. Work in Perkin's and Arthur's department at the ministry has never been that exciting or urgent or busy at all, so what if Perkins decided to keep watch on Mr.Weasley's own son Ron, Hermione, and Harry at Hogwarts because the Weasleys and Arabella Figg were worried about Sirius Black's escape (but then the cat would have learned Sirius is good, Pettigrew is bad, and continued to help Dumbledore and Harry and everyone). If Crookshanks is in fact Perkins, Arthur and Mollly Weasley know that he is just extra protection for Harry. Also, I could bet loads of galleons that Perkins is part of "the old crowd" Dumbledore refers to in GoF along with Perkins' obvious friend Arabella Figg, Mundungus fletcher, and Lupin. I think we'll be learning more about this group of people very shortly. If Crookshanks is not Perkins, who else could be this cat- possibly a new charcter we havent met yet? Is Crookshanks really an animagus (YES...I know he is part kneazle!)? ********************If a wizard is an animagus, do they have to transform into a muggle animal...or could this particular wizard's animagus be indeed A KNEAZLE? yet another aspect of the animagus...wizards may be able to turn into magical animals (as in anything from FBAWTFT)!!!!!!!!!!! Crazy!************************************ OK, I'm done.....sorry to take up sooo much space (i've just had a lot of ideas). I hope I havent been too repetetive or annoying or completely unrealistic. Finally, I'd really like to know what you think about these predictions/questions/random thoughts. Ohh, and if you want a good quick review of the four HP books and everything to watch in Book 5 before June 21, go get The Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter. It should be at the book store....and it discusses in detail all/most of the stuff discussed on this board plus more....it's great...I read it in a day! And, ALDREA...are you out there? You'll be at a Swim Meet on June 21! I'm a hardcore swimmer too! Have fun and good luck...so sorry to hear you'll be missing the first day of OoP! JUST TEN MORE DAYS!!! Love, PoPo from Ravenclaw [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meboriqua at aol.com Wed Jun 11 21:34:04 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 21:34:04 -0000 Subject: Why redeem Draco? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60043 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brooke" wrote: > So far I find myself agreeing with jenny ravenclaw. I think that Lucius IS psychologically abusive to Draco. I see many similarities in the father son relationship between Draco & Lucius and Crouch Junior with Crouch Senior. I have become a big believer that history will be repeating itself and that our present characters have past counterparts (ie: harry=james). The present character will be faced with similar choices as the past characters, but many will choose differently. I think that Draco will eventually rebel against his extremist father and fight on Dumbledore's side, but he will still resent Harry for being such a hero. I think Draco is to Harry as Snape was to James, and that Draco is on his way to becoming just like Snape... anyone else thinking that way as well?> I didn't say Draco was being abused by his father. In fact, I don't think he is. Lucius Malfoy may not be the warmest man out there, but I don't see him abusing his son. Of course, anyone could argue that my very examples are proof that Draco is most definitely a victim of his father's, but I'll try to explain my position anyway. Unfortunately, Draco is learning some terrible things at home, but that doesn't mean that he is being neglected, insulted, belittled or beaten. The Malfoys are a disgusting family who truly believe they and other pure-blood wizards are superior. Draco's father teaches this to his son because he thinks he is doing the right thing. It's terrible, but it does not make a victim out of Draco. Lucius's disapproval of Draco's grades in the beginning of CoS is not a sign of abuse, either. It is a sign, actually, of a parent who has expectations and shows disappointment when his son doesn't do as well as his father believes he can. I like that Lucius expected better grades of his son, much as I despise Lucius. When I have kids, I'll expect good grades of them, too. Draco makes it very clear to anyone who will listen that he and his father talk quite a bit. He often repeats things he has been told by his dad and threatens to run to Dad when things do not go his way. He also enjoys his parents' company enough to settle himself between the two of them at the QWC (when I was 14, I would have been too embarrassed and would have gone to sit with my friends). Yes, Draco is painfully spoiled and this is what could ruin things for him, but again, it does not mean he is being abused. Dudley, IMO, is much more a victim of abuse as his parents allowed him to become obese, endangering his health. Draco seems healthy enough to me. It is a shame that Draco is learning to harbor such hate, but his parents seem to love him, encourage him and pay plenty of attention to him. Imagine the day when he sees weakness in one of them. Now *that* would be devastating. --jenny from ravenclaw, wondering if Darrin will smear her for this ******************************* From ivanova at idcnet.com Wed Jun 11 22:18:41 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 17:18:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco References: Message-ID: <003301c33067$6aac5730$3dccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 60044 > I, Leah, must wonder... > I don't know how bright you have to be to become the Dark Lord, but I > just don't think that Draco's got it. If he were half as intelligent > as Riddle was, we would have heard about it by now. Actually, we > hear him complaining about Hermione in Borgin & Burkes (CoS); and > Lucius berates him for not beating a girl and a Muggle. We > don't have any specific canon for his grades, but I suspect that they > are not phenomenal. > Kelly replies: I wouldn't judge Draco's grades solely on the scene in Borgin and Burkes. Lucius seems like a perfectionist. Draco can never do anything good enough for Lucius. For all we know, Draco's grades could be second only to Hermione's, but that wouldn't be good enough for Lucius because he wasn't number one and especially because a Muggle-born beat him. I'm not saying he's anywhere near as intelligent as Tom Riddle was, but I don't believe Draco to be dumb, either. Leah again: > On a second note, I don't think Draco is evil enough to be the Dark > Lord. He just seems to be a petty, malicious brat who has no > consideration for others (on the other hand, Tom probably didn't > appear evil either...). Kelly: I actually feel somewhat sorry for Draco. Others have already discussed the abusive aspect of the father/son relationship. I see Draco as a boy who would do anything for his father's approval (and perhaps love). His grades aren't good enough, so he tries even harder. Lucius thinks something is cool, therefore Draco thinks it's cool, too. That's why I'm afraid that if Lucius wants Draco to be a DE, Draco will be one. He will feel honored that his father finally trusts him enough to give him more responsibility and share with him his secret. I do see Draco realizing once he's been taken in that maybe he personally doesn't want to be a DE. So far, everything for Draco has been all talk. Even killing Mudbloods is all talk. He thinks it makes him sound tough, and he knows his father would approve of such talk. Talking about doing something and actually doing something are two different things, though. Could Draco go through with it, or could this be the point at which Draco will rebel against his father, and therefore against the DE's? Kelly Grosskreutz, who is hoping Draco will rebel sooner and not join the DE's at all. http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 11 22:21:28 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:21:28 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: OOP: spoiler policy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60045 Greetings from Hexquarters! As we all count down the days until the release of OoP, the Administration Team has been huddled at Hexquarters, all of the entrances securely bolted and towels stuffed under the cracks beneath the doors. Nothing, we vowed, must disturb our careful deliberations and detailed preparations for This Blessed Event. Finally, the Admin Team have something to show for their hard work. We have decided how we will handle the issue of spoilers for the OoP release. Our view is that anyone who comes to a HP discussion group around the release of OoP really should expect to encounter spoilers. Lots and lots of spoilers. For that reason, we have decided *not* to require list members to use spoiler space at all. Instead, we are introducing a new prefix for subject headers, which will give members fair warning that the post contains OoP spoilers. Beginning today, we would like members to use the "OOP" prefix for any post to any of our lists that contains spoilers for OoP. Subject headers should not, of course, contain spoilers themselves -- "OOP: Sirius Dies At Azkaban!" rather defeats the point of the OoP prefix. For example, an appropriate subject header might be, "OOP: Harry, Sirius." Harry and Sirius are so interconnected in previous books that this isn't a spoiler. "OOP: Harry, Lupin" on the other hand, *would* be a spoiler, as we don't know whether Lupin is in Book 5. "OOP: Lupin" would be better (as for all we know, you might be posting on why Lupin isn't in the book). Remember that a subject header which has *both* a chapter number and a subject is in itself a spoiler. 'OOP: Chapter 32 - Sirius' tells readers that Sirius turns up in Chapter 32. For a reader only on Chapter 7, where Harry is worried about his godfather, that's a spoiler. If you want to discuss a particular chapter, use chapter numbers *only*. 'OOP: Chapter 32' is fine. Please begin using the new "OOP" prefix on all of our lists -- especially the main list and OT-Chatter -- beginning today. And remember, if you have any comments about any OoP release issues, holler at us at: hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com "The truth." Dumbledore sighed. "It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution." [PS/SS Chapter 17] Be like Dumbledore. Tell people as little as possible. ;-) Counting down to June 21st The Administration Team From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 11 22:29:55 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:29:55 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Errr... sorry, what's a 'spoiler'? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60046 It is coming to the attention of the Admin team that there is some confusion over what is a pre-OOP 'spoiler'. Mainly, it's come to our attention because our little administrative brains are themselves becoming confused. It's easy enough to work out what a spoiler is going to be after June 21. Absolutely *anything* in the book. But what is a spoiler *before* publication? A pre-publication spoiler is: anything you KNOW will be in Book 5. Not as in 'I saw it in a dream'; more 'I saw it in the Scholastic catalog/ on the cover art / on the press release.' Anything that you THINK will be in OOP is fair game. We've been speculating about what we THINK will be in OOP for the last couple of years, after all... So, if you KNOW that parts of your post include information that will be in OoP, you need the OOP: prefix. If you know parts of your post include information that is currently the subject of legal action, you need a lawyer. Not posting is likely to be a good decision in these cases (especially since we'll have to delete any post which may be in contempt of court). And if you don't use the OOP: prefix, don't be surprised if you suddenly find yourself being hung upside down over the Slytherin Common Room fire. ;-) The Administration Team From bard7696 at aol.com Wed Jun 11 22:51:08 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:51:08 -0000 Subject: Why redeem Draco? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60047 Jenny wrote: > I didn't say Draco was being abused by his father. In fact, I don't > think he is. Lucius Malfoy may not be the warmest man out there, but > I don't see him abusing his son. Of course, anyone could argue that > my very examples are proof that Draco is most definitely a victim of > his father's, but I'll try to explain my position anyway. This should be good. ;) > > Unfortunately, Draco is learning some terrible things at home, but > that doesn't mean that he is being neglected, insulted, belittled or > beaten. The Malfoys are a disgusting family who truly believe they > and other pure-blood wizards are superior. Draco's father teaches > this to his son because he thinks he is doing the right thing. It's > terrible, but it does not make a victim out of Draco. I agree wholeheartedly. Look no further than Harry, who has gone through a childhood many times worse than Draco and see how Harry turned out. At some point, you have the option of rejecting your parents' teachings. Perhaps Draco is too young, so far, to expect that right now, but I don't think the age of reckoning is far off. We have no evidence of physical abuse. We have no evidence of neglect (quite the opposite, actually) and no evidence that there are problems between Lucius and Narcissa that could affect Draco. In fact, Lucius actually tries to instill a touch of responsibility, believe it or not, in Draco in CoS. Draco is whining about how the teachers don't like him and favor Hermione and Lucius essentially says, "You STILL should have beaten her, because you're pureblood." Loathsome and vile sentiments, but it's also telling Draco to stop being such a whiny git. > Lucius's disapproval of Draco's grades in the beginning of CoS is not > a sign of abuse, either. It is a sign, actually, of a parent who has > expectations and shows disappointment when his son doesn't do as well > as his father believes he can. I like that Lucius expected better > grades of his son, much as I despise Lucius. When I have kids, I'll > expect good grades of them, too. Oh, I guess I should have read further. See above for my "ditto" on this matter. > It is a shame that Draco is learning to harbor such hate, but his > parents seem to love him, encourage him and pay plenty of attention to > him. Imagine the day when he sees weakness in one of them. Now > *that* would be devastating. I've long believed that Narcissa is the weak link in the Malfoy family as far as evil and hatred (which makes her the strongest link in terms of actual decency.) My feeling is that , if Redeemed Draco must be, then something will happen to Narcissa, which will cause Draco to reevaluate. I still, though, would rather see Draco take whatever disagreement with his father is lurking ahead and try to become MORE evil. "What, Lord Voldemort? You want me to kill my own father because you feel he is weak? And then I get to take his spot? OK, you want Avada Kevara or just a knife to the heart?" THAT'S the Draco I want to see. > --jenny from ravenclaw, wondering if Darrin will smear her for this Not at all, I agree totally. You know I always take the "sympathy for Draco" stuff with a grain of salt the size of a boulder. Darrin -- Still plotting that book-burning if the Hermione-Draco relationship ever comes about. From marie_mouse at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 22:31:35 2003 From: marie_mouse at hotmail.com (Marie Jadewalker) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:31:35 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60048 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." wrote: > You know, I'll bet there have been *thousands* of predictions on this > list about what will happen in OoP. I've probably made dozens > myself, some of them mutually exclusive. ;-) We've had polls about > all sorts of predictions, too. > > Now that June 21 is just around the corner (Wow! -- We'll be reading > OoP next weekend!), maybe it's time to get *serious* here. No more > having a whole bunch of vague predictions to your name. Maybe it's > time for a gut-check -- time for anyone who's willing to stand on > just one OoP prediction to step forward. Okay, I'll try sinceI don't think I've seen anyone with something similar to my wacky theory in *this* excercize. I'm going to go with the infamous Florence. I believe _she_ is going to be the new Dada teacher. Further, I think it is going to become important to find out who it was that Bertha Jorkins caught her kissing behind the Greenhouse (in Dumbledore's penseive in GOF). She could potentially be (or have been) involved in all sorts of love polygons (Snape and Sirius? All the Maurauders? Filch, Malfoy Sr, and Mr. Lestrange?) but it could also just be a clue to her true allegiances. At any rate, I think that scene in the Penseive is going to end up meaning a lot more than just background on poor Ms. Bertha. As a post script, not part of my ONE prediction, I believe the knife Harry got from Sirius last Christmas will end up being important. ~Marie From lilpurplealdy at netscape.net Wed Jun 11 23:25:48 2003 From: lilpurplealdy at netscape.net (Juliet) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:25:48 -0000 Subject: Moody,Hagrid, Sinistra, Perkins, and whatnot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60049 >>Also, is there some way that Harry can be a descendent of both Salazar Slytherin AND Godric Gryffindor ?>> Well...in CoS, Dumbledore states(typos aside), that Tom Riddle was the last descendent of Slytherin. So..unless you want to buy into Voldemort is Harry's Grandfather and that Dumbledore doesn't know what he's talking about, then there's really no way for Harry to be descendent from both. >>Karkaroff will be back in book 5, and possibly take up his rank as DE once again.>> I don't know if I'll see that happening...I'm one of the ones that takes Karkaroff to be the "coward" mentioned at the end of GoF. I got the impression that those that didn't show up at the Meeting in the Graveyard(the ones that didn't have an acceptable excuse, anyways- and I think only being dead or imprisoned were acceptable, unless you happened to be named Crouch) were going to be considered traitors and killed(of course). >>As Professor of astronomy, it seems that she probably has seen exactly the same things the centaurs are reading in the stars. Although McGonnagall doesn't beleive in "fortune telling" (could not trusting the wisdom of others be McGonnagall's dire weakness?), Sinistra could be a valuable key for either Dumbledore or Voldemort in predicting the future, and figuring out what to watch for. She would have somewhat inside information for the forthcoming wizard war based on the stars.>> Whoops, got your definitions mixed up there, bud. Astronomy(what Sinistra teachers):The scientific study of matter in outer space, especially the positions, dimensions, distribution, motion, composition, energy, and evolution of celestial bodies and phenomena. Astrology(what Trelawney and the Centaurs use):The study of the positions and aspects of celestial bodies in the belief that they have an influence on the course of natural earthly occurrences and human affairs. I wish we'd get a peak inside the Astronomy classroom, instead of just hearing about it's homework. I beleive that's the only class the Trio is taking that we don't get the inside scoop on. Makes me wonder, it does... >>-----Pertaining to Neville...He owns Trevor, an amphibian, his uncle's name is Uncle Algie- like Algae, and Crouch/Moody gives him a book on water plants. Coincidences? I think not.>> Also, Neville has been said to be good at Herbology(ties into the water plants book). I believe that boy has got a bit of a green thumb, and like others I'm waiting for him to come into his own (perhaps even in Book 5, who knows). If you're making a tie to Neville and water...well, I really can't see him being much of a swimmer. But maybe we'll find out Neville takes secret midnight trips down to the Lake to converse with the Merpeople at night... :) >>And, ALDREA...are you out there? You'll be at a Swim Meet on June 21! I'm a hardcore swimmer too! Have fun and good luck...so sorry to hear you'll be missing the first day of OoP!>> I'm out here! Yep...it's a home meet, though, so atleast I won't be getting back til about 7, I'll be done anywhere from 1-3. Not too bad, I shall be home and reading in no time(of course, I'll probably go insane from the heat and the lack of food coupled with the wanting of my OoP X.X ). ~Aldrea, looking forward to both her home swim meet and the arrival of her Order of the Phoenix. From susannahlm at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 23:36:33 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:36:33 -0000 Subject: Your One Biggest *Hope* for OOP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60050 Okay, so here's a question. We've all been talking a fair bit about our one rock-solid OOP prediction; what do people most *hope* will happen in OOP? I mean, *one* hope? Me, I'm hoping Lucius Malfoy becomes the new Minister of Magic. Derannimer From brookeshanks at mugglenet.com Wed Jun 11 19:06:59 2003 From: brookeshanks at mugglenet.com (Brooke) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 19:06:59 -0000 Subject: What's in a Name? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60051 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kira November" wrote: > I am reading 'In Search of Zarathustra' in which the author traces the > influence of the ancient religion Zoroastrianism on other religions ancient > and modern. In a section on the Bulgarian Empire (who knew there was one, > raise your hands!) I came across this: > > "Yet it is sometimes possible to read between the lines of their bare > accounts and imagine how it must have been, say, on the day in 814 when the > fearsome Khan Krum, after a whole year of preparation, led a huge army south > from his territory in Thrace to besiege Constantinople." > > and this: > > "But Krum has defeated three Roman emperors in succession on the > battlefield, and drunk wine from the silver-lined skull of Nicephorus, the > last of them." > > > Kira November > who likes to go eclectic Very interesting! Thanks for putting that out there... I doubt whether anyone else would have run across that unless they were studying the exact same thing. And clearly the Durmstrang lot are being well educated (Defense Against?) the Dark Arts, plus with shady Karkaroff being their headmaster... Krum is a very likely candidate to become a young death eater. Makes me scared about the future of Hermione's friendship/ties with him. If Krum turns nasty, Hermione better watch out! Brooke > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 21:21:06 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 21:21:06 -0000 Subject: MoM= Fudge out, Malfoy in In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60052 "Susan XG" wrote: Excellent prediction! I agree with you as well. In fact, it has a kind of "historical" support...>>> The Sergeant Majorette says: Not that JKR doesn't know these things, I just don't think her sourcing of her plots is that deep. But I love your analysis -- have you written any fanfics? It occurs to me that too-serious deconstructing of "the Canon" might interfere with my enjoyment of the books. At my age, one's disbelief suspenders, like one's corneas, become less elastic... --JDR From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Wed Jun 11 21:31:22 2003 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:31:22 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Nitwit, Blubber, Oddment, Tweak... References: Message-ID: <3EE79FAA.3080104@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60053 jhlupin wrote: > Hagrid, on the > other hand, has become to Harry even more than the > Weasley's have. His death will be hardest of all on Harry, who > may mistakenly think he can save Hagrid by travelling to the > , where he will meet Hagrid and his > . > > I love the theory of the Erised-like room that will transport Harry. > AD mentioned all those bedpans for some reason. I further > believe that what he finds out in the Land of the Dead will lead to > the conversation with AD where all is exposed, including the real > fate of James Potter, of which we have very little factual > information. Remember, a shadow of the body of James > emerged from LV wand. If his mind had been switched to > another body, James intellect would survive even if his body > were to perish. And as JKR has said, we would never a > living James (or Lily) Potter... > > JHL > Digger adds: Well thanks. I wish I had an acronym for it - DeadLand!Harry perhaps. I do wonder about Dumbledore's role in the coming volume. Its all rather DISHWASHED thoughts. I am haunted by that phrase "I will only truly have left this school when none here are loyal to me... Help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it." I suspect Dumbledore will indeed be removed from the school by Fudge & the Govenors, and those that remain at Hogwarts will (MUST!) remain loyal to him and ask him for help if they are to win the next battle in the war. Maybe D is sent to Azkaban? I don't think even the dementors could keep him there though, because I also remember his claim to invisibility /sans /cloak......... I think we are going to see much chaos and overturning in the WW soon. It will all be unsettling, and I think we will see a time when LV & DEs manage to get a few serious blows in. Personally, I also hope we get to the bottom of MemoryCharm!Neville, and a bit of romance for Hagrid instead of death. I like very much the idea of LV inheriting Wormtail's lifedebt as well as Lily's love, as a result of the resurrection ritual. Maybe some reluctant spying by polyjuiced Snape!Crouch jnr will help Perhaps all this, combined with the information he gets from DD and his parents in DeadLand, is what Harry needs to see him through this round. Life sure is tough for a teenage eternal hero. Go Harry! digger From renimar at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 22:26:43 2003 From: renimar at yahoo.com (M. J. Pascual) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:26:43 -0000 Subject: Why redeem Draco? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60054 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenny_ravenclaw" wrote: > Lucius's disapproval of Draco's grades in the beginning of CoS is not > a sign of abuse, either. It is a sign, actually, of a parent who has > expectations and shows disappointment when his son doesn't do as well > as his father believes he can. I like that Lucius expected better > grades of his son, much as I despise Lucius. When I have kids, I'll > expect good grades of them, too. I'm of the opinion that Lucius' expression of disapproval is not so much that he believes that education is good for his son, but rather the sense that 'By not getting top marks, you've shamed the family.' I mean, the top-of-the-class is a muggle-born witch. For a family that truly believes in the supremacy of pure-bred wizards, this is embarassing and flying in the face of everything they believe. To draw a parallel, think of Hitler watching his Master Race athelete beaten by Jesse Owens. That's the kind of disappointment I see Lucius having for Malfoy's academic performance. --Mark From ewdotson at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 11 23:04:51 2003 From: ewdotson at sbcglobal.net (ewdotson) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 18:04:51 -0500 Subject: What other curse scar? References: <1055359104.6507.66598.m7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001501c3306d$dd735ec0$11c8fea9@v1p6p6> No: HPFGUIDX 60055 > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 17:08:31 -0000 > From: "Kirstini" > Subject: Re: What other curse scar? > > >snip debate about Fudge's line "I've [never]heard of a curse scar > acting as an alarm bell before" in GoF< > Personally, I feel this line only makes sense *without* the "never". > Fudge is talking about the possibility that Harry is mentally ill, > and the "alarm bell" in question is one which alerts people to this > possibility. There is no other context for this line. With the > never, you have to read it as "Forgive me Dumbledore, but I've never > heard of the curse scars of any of Voldemort's *other* victims > acting as alarm bells to his murderous intentions before." Of course > not. No-one else in canon so far has a Voldemort curse scar. > Therefore, there is no reason for him to mention curse scars in the > negative, and so I'm rather tempted to believe that the American, > not the British version (the one I've got here is a 20th imprint)is > mistaken. > > Kirstini > > (please forgive tortured syntax, I've been marking papers all day) I'm afraid I don't agree at all. Nowhere does Fudge state or imply that he's talking specifically about Voldemort specific scars. Various statements in the books intimate that curses leaving scars is not an unheard of occurence. (eg the bit about "That's what yeh get when a powerful, evil curse touches yeh") Considering the overall discussion that Fudge is having with Dumbledore is about whether or not Voldemort has returned, it seems perfectly reasonable to me that the comment is intended to discredit Harry's scar as meaning anything. (That is, Fudge states, "You admit that he's been having pains, then?" said Fudege quickly. "Headaches, Nightmares? Possibly - hallucinations?" He's clearly trying to establish that Harry is an unreliable source. Dumbledore replies, "...I believe it hurts him when Lord Voldemort is close by, or feeling particularly murderous." Here, Dumbledore is stating that Harry's head pains do not make him unreliable. If Fudge shoots back with, "You'll forgive me.. but I've never heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm bell before..." he would be directly responding to Dumbledore's argument. In summary, "Harry's crazy." "No, his curse scar is giving warnings about V." "That's crazy. Curse scars don't do that". It makes perfect sense to me. At the very least, I'd say it's a perfectly reasonable and sensible way for the scene to have been intended to have been written. ewdotson From tahewitt at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 23:51:11 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 16:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OoP: Re: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction (possible spoiler) In-Reply-To: <1055371969.4277.44893.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030611235111.53911.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60056 Um, I'm a little confused as to the legality of this post. Are we not supposed to discuss what we read in the now banned excerpt? Or just not supposed to quote/repeat the text? No rule-breaking intended, so List Elves-If this looks suspicious, delete/edit it! Ok, after reading and hearing the 'illegal' clip from the OoP audio book, my head is spinning with ideas and I've become way too excited about the upcoming release. Anyways, here's my prediction: The boy lying in the flower bed is Dudley. He's lying there because he's unconcious after Dementors (sent by Fudge under pressure from Lucius Malfoy who is insisting that Harry murdered Cedric Griggory) storm the Dudley household. Harry casts a Petronus to drive the dementors away, but ends up facing MOM problems for using underage magic, leading to the scene in the banned excerpt. Tyler __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From JessaDrow at aol.com Thu Jun 12 00:02:49 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 20:02:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Your One Biggest *Hope* for OOP Message-ID: <10d.25b1f2b3.2c191d29@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60057 In a message dated 6/11/03 7:39:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, susannahlm at yahoo.com writes: > Okay, so here's a question. We've all been talking a fair bit about our one > rock-solid > OOP prediction; what do people most *hope* will happen in OOP? I mean, *one* > > hope? > > Me, I'm hoping Lucius Malfoy becomes the new Minister of Magic. > Oh gods, I can't possibly keep it down to one, four maybe. But one? Sorry. 1) Hadrig doesn't die. 2) We get a Ron and Hemione pairing. 3) Arthur Weasley is made minster of magic 4) None in the circle die, meanig Ron, Harry, Hermione or the Weasleys. 5) Okay I was wrong about keeping it down to four. I would love to see Dursley turn out to be a wizard. ~Faith [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From artsylynda at aol.com Thu Jun 12 00:08:20 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 20:08:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 2896 Message-ID: <78.4151d38a.2c191e74@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60058 In a message dated 6/11/2003 3:23:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > >I did wonder if the excerpt was approved/real because it has bits > that struck me as odd I listened to it instead of reading it, and it sure sounded like Jim Dale. Next time I got online, The Leaky Cauldron (where I found it) said they'd taken it down because it wasn't approved. Verrrry interesting. . . . Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 12 00:15:22 2003 From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 00:15:22 -0000 Subject: OOP: AOL/Amazon.com snippet Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60059 Umm... this is going to be much more boring than you've anticipated from my title. In fact this post is practically useless, but not *completely* unless no one anwsers my query. Anyways I just want to know if were allowed to post from the audio snippet from AOL/Amazon.com...because the Leaky Cauldron warns people not do so on their site, and I don't want HPFGUs to incur any legal problems. Scott From p_prideaux at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 12 00:13:10 2003 From: p_prideaux at yahoo.co.uk (Paul Prideaux) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 00:13:10 -0000 Subject: Voldemort = Lich? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60060 Does anyone who is familiar with the mythical undead creature known as a Lich agree that it seems likely that V is one? For those who don't know, a Lich is a powerful wizard has used dark magic to gain a form of immortality. This seems to agree with what DD says to Harry in CoS when discussing Riddle's journey after leaving school. Here's some exerpts that seem to link this creature to Voldemort: "The lich is, perhaps, the single most powerful form of undead known to exist. It seeks to further its own power at all costs" "It is also known as The One-Who's-Name-Is-Not-Spoken, The Evil One, The Soulless Mage, to name but a few" (first one rings a bell!) "The Lich is gaunt and skeletal in form" (as V is described in GoF) "Most were originally high powered wizards in their mortal life.. " "the lich has no interest in good or evil as we understand it, the creature will do whatever it must to further its own causes. Since it feels that the living are of little importance, the lich is often viewed as evil by those who encounter it" (seems to agree with what V says to Harry in PS(film) about there being no good or evil, only power) "Few liches call themselves by their old names when the years have drained the last vestiges of their humanity from them. Instead, they often adopt pseudonyms like ``the Black Hand'' or ``the Forgotten King.''" (reminisent of "The Dark Lord"?) And here's one that may come to play in the future! "Learning the true name of a lich is rumored to confer power over the creature." Ideas? Pryd. x From lupinesque at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 00:17:10 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 00:17:10 -0000 Subject: Voldemort = Lich? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60061 Paul Prideaux (welcome, Paul!) wrote: > Here's some exerpts What are these from? Amy Z ----- 10...9... From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 12 00:17:38 2003 From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 00:17:38 -0000 Subject: OOP: Clarify! Clarify! Clarify! (was AOL/Amazon.com snippet) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60062 I meant can we post ideas, theories, reactions etc...NOT a transcript. sorry if that's confusing. From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu Jun 12 00:18:32 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 20:18:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: AOL/Amazon.com snippet Message-ID: <21.3087c056.2c1920d8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60063 There is an admin post on it in today's email but basically no we aren't supposed to post any quotes from it. I did read somewhere that its been sanctioned since then but I haven't found anything official on it Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lupinesque at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 00:20:46 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 00:20:46 -0000 Subject: Can't post re: AOL/Amazon.com snippet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60064 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > Umm... this is going to be much more boring than you've anticipated > from my title. In fact this post is practically useless, but not > *completely* unless no one anwsers my query. Anyways I just want to > know if were allowed to post from the audio snippet from > AOL/Amazon.com...because the Leaky Cauldron warns people not do so > on their site, and I don't want HPFGUs to incur any legal problems. Thanks, Scott. No, no one in the world is allowed to post from the audio snippet--a court order instantly required AOL to take it offline and we'd have to delete posts that quoted it. But we can talk about it real soon. Amy Z ----- 10...9... From amani at charter.net Thu Jun 12 00:25:55 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 20:25:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Crookshanks just a cat? Hmmmm... References: Message-ID: <002c01c33079$30805a40$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60065 Melissa: Can a female tranform into a male? This isn't like a polyjuice potion where all you need is a bit of who you want to be, male or female. If, as in the case of wands, the animal chooses the person what does that say about Mrs Figg? We haven't seen a case of cross gender transformation yet. Melissa < who tends to think that Crookshanks is part kneazle> Me: He is part-kneazle. It's been said a few times, and I just dug up the interview for reference. It's from the BBC Newsround interview on April 27, 2001: Lizo: ...I was particularly interested in the bit about the Kneazle, is Crookshanks possibly... uh, have any Kneazle...? JKR: Yes, part-Kneazle yes, he is, yes, well-spotted. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From artsylynda at aol.com Thu Jun 12 00:35:26 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 20:35:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] black hair (was Moody, Hagrid, Sinistra, Perkins and whatnot Message-ID: <76.2e8a2c7d.2c1924ce@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60066 In a message dated 6/11/2003 6:55:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > Tom Riddle > Jr had crazy black hair like Harry, Where in canon does it say Riddle's hair is unruly like Harry's? I thought it was just black like Harry's, not unruly. I've read the books HOW many times and I'm still *missing things*?!? Yikes! Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leon at adatofamily.com Thu Jun 12 00:41:26 2003 From: leon at adatofamily.com (Leon Adato) Date: 11 Jun 2003 20:41:26 -0400 Subject: The word "order" (was My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1055359086.2346.376.camel@medion> No: HPFGUIDX 60067 On Tue, 2003-06-10 at 15:09, rachelbeth007 wrote: > Interesting. Are you implying that the title in German will give us an insight > into which definition of "order" the English title uses? I took German in > college, but I'm pretty rusty. There are a ton of different definitions for order in > both German and English, but here are the two that are what most think the > title is referring to: (appologies if this has already been discussed). You bring up a point that my daughters (11 and 8) and I were discussing last week. I had just assumed that "order" meant "organization". My 11 year old assumed it was "command". The 8 year old was sure it meant that Harry was going to buy (order via post) a phoenix as a pet! Based on that single word, the entire plot of the book could be revealed!! Leon's List of Possible ORDER meanings: * organization/society * command * prioritization/distribution/pattern/placement * classification (order, genus, species) * procedure * rule/monarchy * lawfullness/peacefullness * purchase/shipment (admittedly with help from www.thesaurus.com) > -- > Leon Adato > =============== > "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." > - Philip K. Dick > adatole at yahoo.com > phone: 440-542-9659 > fax: 305-832-2818 From loonyloopyrjl at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 00:43:05 2003 From: loonyloopyrjl at yahoo.com (loonyloopyrjl) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 00:43:05 -0000 Subject: Why redeem Draco? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60068 Dimitar wrote: Why redeem Draco? I have read thousands of posts in which posters, overwhelmingly female, come up with elaborate explanations of his actions just so he doesn't look so bad, ignoring the much more probable explanation that he is bad little spoiled brat. Why does he have to turn to the good side, there is nothing in the four books to suggest that he has the slightest inclination to do that. Heidi Tandy responded: There actually is one clear thing in book 4 to suggest that Draco is not as inclined to wander down the Path of Evil as one might think on first glance - it happens in the woods at the World Cup where, instead of handing the trio over to the death eaters, or even just waylaying them or otherwise hindering them, he tells them how to get out of the way of the marauding death eaters. Loony Loopy (me) responds: I interpreted Draco's "warning" as more of an insecure brat showing off what he knows rather than an act of kindness. Basically, he's taunting the Trio with "I know something you don't know." He tells the Trio what's going on because he wants to see them panic. He thinks he'll be entertained by their fear. Will Draco ever be redeemed? I don't think so, not by Book 7. He may inadvertently or begrudgingly do a good deed, but he won't become a knight in shining armor. Loony Loopy, who can count the days to OOP with the fingers on her hands. From p_prideaux at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 12 00:34:38 2003 From: p_prideaux at yahoo.co.uk (Paul Prideaux) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 00:34:38 -0000 Subject: Voldemort = Lich? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60069 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" wrote: > Paul Prideaux (welcome, Paul!) wrote: > > > Here's some exerpts > > What are these from? Mostly from the Lich description from AD&D, but some are found on various web pages, via a web search =) I think that some of the later may be paraphrased in the former, but this isn't certain. I've seen the Lich story in several different ways, but the core (powerful wizard, dark magic, form of immortality) seems common to all of them. There's possibly loads of stuff I've missed, or stuff that simply doesn't fit the idea. I saw the similarity and did a bit of research, the result of which was the bulk of my first post. Hope this helps. =) Pryd. x From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 21:52:28 2003 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (Janelle Raemisch) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: best lines in the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030611215228.49840.qmail@web14006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60070 i've got two quotes for you- the first line of the first book- "Mr. and Mrs. Dursley, of number four privet drive, were proud to say that they were perfectly normal, thank you very much." and then from gof- "Cedric?" said Ron blankly as Ernie hurried off. "Diggory," said Harry. "He must be entering the tournament." "That idiot, Hogwarts champion?" said Ron as they pushed their way through the chattering crowd towards the staircase. "He?s not an idiot. You just don?t like him because he beat Gryffindor at Quidditch," said Hermione. "I?ve heard he?s a really good student--- and he?s a prefect." She spoke as though this settled the matter. "You only like him because he?s handsome," said Ron scathingly. "Excuse me, I don?t like people just beause they?re handsome!" said Hermione indignantly. Ron gave a loud fake cough, which sounded oddly like "Lockhart!" "Janelle" From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 01:49:43 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 01:49:43 -0000 Subject: Why redeem Draco? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60071 I see there being a conflict in the future: at some point, Draco will be faced with a choice in a direct way. He's a nasty and cunning little brat, but he's also a coward. So I'm not really sure what will happen when he's faced with the choice. Honestly, I don't think he'd have any qualms about killing or torturing...but I don't see him being the kind of person his father is. His father stands face-to-face with LV (who calls him by his first name) and is basically, "eh, oops" when LV reprimands him for not going out to help him earlier. Draco would run away crying, IMHO. That doesn't mean I think he'll be redeemed. I've seen people redeem everyone from Wormtail to Lucius to Fudge to Dudley. I'm waiting for someone to redeem Voldemort soon. =) The fact is- not EVERYONE can be a good guy, or there'd be no conflict. Not everyone can be redeemed. (And on the flip side, not everyone can turn evil) So I think Draco will be faced with a choice- after all, it is our choices and not our abilities or heritage. But that doesn't mean he'll choose the good side. -Laura From btk6y at virginia.edu Thu Jun 12 01:55:00 2003 From: btk6y at virginia.edu (btk6y) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 01:55:00 -0000 Subject: Can't post re: AOL/Amazon.com snippet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60072 Sorry to beat a dead horse, but it appears according to TLC that the audio snippet is allowed to stay on the AOL website, so it must be sanctioned. People if they want can listen to the file. If that is true, then are we still not allowed to post ideas/theories if we don't reproduce a transcript? Bobby From debmclain at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 02:07:13 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 02:07:13 -0000 Subject: Can't post re: AOL/Amazon.com snippet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60073 Bobby/"btk6y" wrote: > Sorry to beat a dead horse, but it appears according to TLC that the > audio snippet is allowed to stay on the AOL website, so it must be > sanctioned. People if they want can listen to the file. If that is > true, then are we still not allowed to post ideas/theories if we > don't reproduce a transcript? Bobby: "Scott" wrote: > I meant can we post ideas, theories, reactions etc...NOT a > transcript. sorry if that's confusing. Now I'm going to post! -Debbie From debmclain at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 02:25:13 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 02:25:13 -0000 Subject: OoP Spoiler: AOL Jim Dale reading NOT! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60075 Okay, now I'm confused. After re-reading over the stuff, we can't post anything at all? Or just not quotes? If not at all, please delete my message. Sorry if I created a problem! -Debbie From prongs at marauders-map.net Thu Jun 12 02:44:20 2003 From: prongs at marauders-map.net (Silver Stag) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:44:20 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP Spoiler: AOL Jim Dale reading References: Message-ID: <000701c3308c$86ded110$0201a8c0@bettysue> No: HPFGUIDX 60076 Debbie: snip I actually feel more relaxed now regarding the wait for the book. > Okay, I know, it's less than 10 days away, but otherwise I'd be > screaming. Of course, I'm still there at midnight. snip > AAAAAAUGH! Less than 10 days! My reaction when the excerpt ended was "argh! **** the clock!" I'm nowhere near relaxed. I've been getting antsy for the last couple weeks. I'm more and more restless, wanting more and more hp, and I'm trying to satisfy that craving with fanfic so that I can use next week to catch up with the books, but it's not working. That little snippet, though...y'know, I want one of those door knobs. Lol. As I was saying before I got side tracked by the coolness of snakes, that wait made me even more hungry and restless. It's what fanfic authors call a cookie; just enough to excite you, and whether It's legal or not (I don't care), it did its job. As satisfying as a warm, chewy chocolate chip cookie, as terribly tempting as the smell of said cookie when you can't eat it. Betty, who's going to stop rambling now. From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu Jun 12 02:49:07 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:49:07 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP Spoiler: AOL Jim Dale reading Message-ID: <1ea.ab90511.2c194423@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60077 In a message dated 6/11/2003 9:22:28 PM Central Standard Time, debmclain at yahoo.com writes: > Wow!! So exciting! Thanks to Scott for saying we can post, just not > write transcripts. I appreciate it. > > Okay - is anyone surprised about Harry meeting Dementors and having > to use magic to save his life during the summer? Hmmm.. didn't think > so. > > Not terribly surprised. > Hmmm.. what about the house? Is this the one from the Amazon special > edition cover? Or is it the Malfoy's summer house? I don't think it's > the Riddle house. They wouldn't have serpent doorhandles. There has been tons of speculation that it might be Snapes house and that's why Molly felt comfortable leaving the kids on their own there. There's been an equal amount predicting that this is a dream/premonition of Harry's (perhaps while dozing in the flower bed). Or that the Weasleys & Hermione are polyjuiced. (hope not I'm kinda tired of that. . . . . ohhh a thought . .maybe Harry's having a nightmare where all of his friends turn out to be enemies ala fake!Moody?) > > > Sounds like Hermione and Ron have been together during the summer. > Shipping, anyone? > Oh I don't know. But that was apparently one heck of a hug if Ron had to tell Hermione to let him breathe > I actually feel more relaxed now regarding the wait for the book. > Okay, I know, it's less than 10 days away, but otherwise I'd be > screaming. Of course, I'm still there at midnight. > > -Debbie > AAAAAAUGH! Less than 10 days! > Nah I want more! more! more! but I'll be there at Midnight as well. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu Jun 12 02:50:18 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 21:50:18 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP: Re: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction (possible spoiler) References: <20030611235111.53911.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00d701c3308d$5c755060$1e9dcdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 60078 Okay, fine. I give in. I've resisted reading most (not all, though) of the OoP predictions, as it seems the closer we get to THE day, the more nervous I get about reading anything to do with OoP. But I can't take it any more. I had to come up with some sort of prediction. I'll skip my usual Arabella Figg DADA teacher and Hagrid dies stuff and go with the third most dull and boring prediction possible. Which is: Harry's knife that he got from Sirius for Christmas in GoF will come in VERY useful. :) Yep, that's it. Well, 9 days 2 hours and 10 minutes and counting. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu Jun 12 02:52:23 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:52:23 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP Spoiler: AOL Jim Dale reading Message-ID: <185.1c44b13e.2c1944e7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60079 In a message dated 6/11/2003 9:22:28 PM Central Standard Time, debmclain at yahoo.com writes: > Wow!! So exciting! Thanks to Scott for saying we can post, just not > write transcripts. I appreciate it. > > Okay - is anyone surprised about Harry meeting Dementors and having > to use magic to save his life during the summer? Hmmm.. didn't think > so. > > Not terribly surprised. > Hmmm.. what about the house? Is this the one from the Amazon special > edition cover? Or is it the Malfoy's summer house? I don't think it's > the Riddle house. They wouldn't have serpent doorhandles. There has been tons of speculation that it might be Snapes house and that's why Molly felt comfortable leaving the kids on their own there. There's been an equal amount predicting that this is a dream/premonition of Harry's (perhaps while dozing in the flower bed). Or that the Weasleys & Hermione are polyjuiced. (hope not I'm kinda tired of that. . . . . ohhh a thought . .maybe Harry's having a nightmare where all of his friends turn out to be enemies ala fake!Moody?) > > > Sounds like Hermione and Ron have been together during the summer. > Shipping, anyone? > Oh I don't know. But that was apparently one heck of a hug if Ron had to tell Hermione to let him breathe > I actually feel more relaxed now regarding the wait for the book. > Okay, I know, it's less than 10 days away, but otherwise I'd be > screaming. Of course, I'm still there at midnight. > > -Debbie > AAAAAAUGH! Less than 10 days! > Nah I want more! more! more! but I'll be there at Midnight as well. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rayheuer3 at aol.com Thu Jun 12 03:05:33 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:05:33 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort = Lich? Message-ID: <6b.12fb7b59.2c1947fd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60080 p_prideaux at yahoo.co.uk writes: > > Does anyone who is familiar with the mythical > undead creature known as a Lich agree that it > seems likely that V is one? He certainly seems to fit the definition(s), but aside from giving him an additional label, does it mean anything worthwhile? > > And here's one that may come to play in the future! > > "Learning the true name of a lich is rumored to confer > power over the creature." Hmmm. So calling "Lord Voldemort" by the name "Tom" would result in his defeat? Interesting possibilities. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alexpie at aol.com Thu Jun 12 03:19:03 2003 From: alexpie at aol.com (alexpie at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:19:03 EDT Subject: Order? Message-ID: <1e3.addc3c2.2c194b27@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60081 In a message dated 6/11/03 10:10:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > Leon's List of Possible ORDER meanings: > * organization/society > * command > * prioritization/distribution/pattern/placement > * classification (order, genus, species) > * procedure > * rule/monarchy > * lawfullness/peacefullness > * purchase/shipment > > I posted that theory about four months ago. We'll have to wait and see, although the translations would seem to indicate otherwise. Ba [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alexpie at aol.com Thu Jun 12 03:29:05 2003 From: alexpie at aol.com (alexpie at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:29:05 EDT Subject: Favorite line Message-ID: <126.2b6b11d5.2c194d81@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60082 Mine is the one that first opens the door for all of us. Tell me you didn't get chills when you first read this: "None of them noticed a large, tawny owl flutter past the window." Ba [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Thu Jun 12 03:33:51 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:33:51 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: best lines in the book? Message-ID: <1d7.b2f2925.2c194e9f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60083 I have two I don't think have been mentioned. >From SS pg. 227 "So, you mean the Stone's only safe as long as Quirrell stands up to Snape?" said Hermione in alarm. "It'll be gone by next Tuesday," said Ron >From CoS US ed. page 144 "I'll make it," Lockhart butted in. "I must have done it a hundred times. I could whip up a Mandrake Restorative Draught in my sleep -" "Excuse me," said Snape icily "But I believe I am the Potions Master at this school." There was a very awkward pause. For some reason I love that part. I still smile and get chills when I read it. That's one for Severus ^_~ ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cindysphynx at comcast.net Thu Jun 12 03:35:12 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 03:35:12 -0000 Subject: Your One Biggest *Hope* for OOP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60084 OK, I'll play. I really, really hope that no one -- and I do mean no one -- comes back as a ghost. The horrid possibilities are endless. Winky or Dobby die and come back as a ghost. Ugh. Even worse, Hermione comes back as a ghost. Oh, yuck. She guides her two pals around, helping them defeat the forces of evil, bopping Voldemort on the back of the head with a frying pan. Please. Please no. Cindy -- who never cared for any of the ghosts From ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 03:57:18 2003 From: ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com (ameliagoldfeesh) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 03:57:18 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction & Hope In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60085 A Goldfeesh says: My prediction for OOP concerns the death that will make the head-in- the-sand Ministry/Wizarding World sit up and take notice. I mean, hey, Hagrid may die but many will say "oh those giants- a violent lot-I'm not surprised he met a bad end." However, when Ludo Bagman, ex-Quidditch hero and Ministy member gets killed, people will certainly take note. I haven't decided if he gets it as a good guy or ever-so-evil. I'm leaning toward he is good though. My hope for OOP: No Yule ball-like deal. No excuse for dancing, romance, etc. That darn convention has been so over-used in fan fic it'd drive me nuts, I think, in the legitimate book! A Goldfeesh I went back to see the gypsy, It was nearly early dawn. The gypsy's door was open wide But the gypsy was gone,... Dylan, Went to See the Gypsy, New Morning From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Thu Jun 12 04:05:41 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 00:05:41 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Your One Biggest *Hope* for OOP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60086 In a message dated 6/11/03 7:39:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, susannahlm at yahoo.com writes: > Okay, so here's a question. We've all been talking a fair bit about our one > rock-solid > OOP prediction; what do people most *hope* will happen in OOP? I mean, *one* > > hope? > > Me, I'm hoping Lucius Malfoy becomes the new Minister of Magic. > > > > Derannimer Just one? That's nearly impossible... How about Top Five? 1. I AGREE!!! LUCIUS FOR PRESI - oops...lemme try it again! Lucius for Minister! 2. Snape *does not* die. 3. Draco becomes more of a bad guy and less of an annoying little fly. 4. Dumbledore uses some of that Dark Magic we heard he can do. 5. Rita's six months of no writing are up and she writes one helluva newspaper article! ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 04:18:28 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 04:18:28 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP some OOP from JKR interview Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60087 >There will also be further romance following on from Harry Potter And >The Goblet Of Fire in which he has a date with a quidditch team-mate - > and develops more of an interest in pal Hermione. > [snip] >Now, my question is: who is Harry dating from the quidditch team? >Does this mean that there will be another girl added, or is he dating >Angelina or Katie? Of course, it might mean from a different house, >but then I wouldn't term it team-mate. Hmmm. > May I respectfully point out that "he has a date" does *not* equate to 'dating' on an on-going basis. Felinia who actually has a really old-fashioned definition of dating, which really means "going out on pre-arranged social outings a deux" :-) _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu Jun 12 04:24:43 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 00:24:43 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP some OOP from JKR interview Message-ID: <15.132cf384.2c195a8b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60088 In a message dated 6/11/2003 11:20:03 PM Central Standard Time, jestahijinx at hotmail.com writes: > >There will also be further romance following on from Harry Potter And > >The Goblet Of Fire in which he has a date with a quidditch team-mate - > > and develops more of an interest in pal Hermione. > > > > May I respectfully point out that "he has a date" does *not* equate to > 'dating' on an on-going basis. > > Felinia > who actually has a really old-fashioned definition of dating, which really > means "going out on pre-arranged social outings a deux" :-) > I could also argue that the "develops more of an interest in pal Hermione" could refer to him taking notice of the pretty girl standing beside him and the detailed description he gives of her. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 04:32:29 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 04:32:29 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP some OOP from JKR interview Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60089 > > > May I respectfully point out that "he has a date" does *not* equate to > > 'dating' on an on-going basis. > > > > Felinia > > who actually has a really old-fashioned definition of dating, which >really > > means "going out on pre-arranged social outings a deux" :-) > > > >I could also argue that the "develops more of an interest in pal Hermione" >could refer to him taking notice of the pretty girl standing beside him and >the >detailed description he gives of her. > >Melissa > Absolutely! :-) JKR can be pretty wily at times - and there are so many fans expecting certain things to happen. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From gwc22 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 01:24:26 2003 From: gwc22 at yahoo.com (Wayne Cochran) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 01:24:26 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60090 Cindy C.wrote: > > Now that June 21 is just around the corner (Wow! -- We'll be reading > OoP next weekend!), maybe it's time to get *serious* here. No more > having a whole bunch of vague predictions to your name. Maybe it's > time for a gut-check -- time for anyone who's willing to stand on > just one OoP prediction to step forward. Alright, time for my two knuts...my prediction...and this is a biggie...is that either Filch or Hermione catch Mrs. Norris and Crookshanks mating during OOP, they will have offspring, but some in the litter will be full blooded cats, some will be full blooded Kneazles, and some will be half and half. *Wayne, returning to his lurking From chuck_richie_99 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 02:41:58 2003 From: chuck_richie_99 at yahoo.com (Chuck) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 02:41:58 -0000 Subject: New Eye Theorem Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60091 We all know the presumed importance of Harry's green eyes. Even JKR acknowledged such in a Beeb (BBC) interview. Well, I was skimming the books again and I noticed the following coincidence: In TSS, Hagrid states (paperback p. 47), "...yeh've got yer mom's eyes." In PoA, Dumbledore states (paperback p. 427), "You look extraordinarily like James. Except for the eyes... you have your mother's eyes." That got me thinking. We've also seen that Switching Spells can be used to switch parts of animals with parts of other animals. We've also seen that there was something about Lily that wasn't important to Voldy. He told Lily to get out of the way so he could kill Harry (p. 239) so Lily either had something that prevented Voldy from killing her or she wasn't important. What if she had a protection and that it was her eyes? We've seen JKR make seeming jokes about body parts that turn out to be true. In GoF, Voldy tells Wormy that many wizards would "give their right hand" to help him (chap 1, page unknown). At the end of the book, Wormy cuts off his right hand to help Voldy. JKR may literally mean that Harry has his mom's eyes. Ten bucks says Lily switched eyes with Harry. Chuck From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 02:59:57 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 02:59:57 -0000 Subject: The Canon Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60092 The Sergeant Majorette, torn (before she was a sergeant, when she was a minorette, she was a weird four-eyed kid who read way too much [even teachers said so] and there were no harrys or hermiones for her to identify with; no organized subculture of other weird kids to trade obsessions and fanfiction with), says: Arthurian legend, eastern European history, obscure folklore: fascinating as all this stuff is (really - no sarcasm intended) I don't think much of it has a lot to do with JKR's process. If we are making predictions (we're up to Book VI, now, right?), we should begin with what we know of what she is before we speculate on what she knows. She's British: No psychological mollycoddling. No angst. Nice people will die. Evil people will stay bad and live. She doesn't care for fantasy as a literary genre: Minimal invention in the construction of the HP universe. No deus-ex-machina stuff. She has the whole seven-book series mapped out: Plots will conclude. She won't write any more HP (she hedges a bit by saying 'never say never', but...): There will be no 'canon' as to the direction the characters will take -- if they live. One might say that the real JKR might be a bit of a let-down as a mythmaker. Unlike, say, an Anne Rice, JKR is a normal person, less eccentric and reclusive than most people I know. Which is why the overwrought and convoluted analyses of the Potterverse are valid and enjoyable in their own right. I've started to collect my favorite metacanonical theories to organize into alternate Potterverses and...(well, I would if I didn't have to stop right now and do what I should have been doing while I was doing this. Gosh darn that adult-onset ADD!) JDR (help me...) From Kadoo96801 at aol.com Thu Jun 12 04:22:55 2003 From: Kadoo96801 at aol.com (Kadoo96801 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 00:22:55 EDT Subject: Is Crookshanks just a cat? Hmmmm... Message-ID: <1c3.aec9c6f.2c195a1f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60093 >Can a female tranform into a male?? This isn't like a polyjuice potion where >all you need is a bit of who you want to be, male or female.? If, as in the >case of wands, the animal chooses the person what does that say about Mrs Figg?? >We haven't seen a? case of cross gender transformation yet. >JKR: Yes, part-Kneazle yes, he is, yes, well-spotted. >--Taryn Hey Taryn, didn't know you were on this list! OK, well, Crookshanks is part kneazle, but the question still remains if he is an animagus. Truly, what is the likelihood of him being a cross-gender anigamus? For all we know, those things don't even exist. If a person's animagus is indeed what kind of animal they resemble (Did I read that somewhere on a JKR chat/interview? Anyone know if it was ever confirmed?) it seems kind of unlikely they would become the opposite sex, even in animal form. That's just whacky for a children's book...it would confuse little kids...hehe. Even if Crookshanks is part kneazle, does this rule out the possibility of him being an animagus? Wizard animagi can probably not only be confined to muggle animals...what about wizard animals. I sure would like to see a witch or wizard transform into a dragon...how about Charlie Weasley! That would be a good time! --PoPo (Taryn's neighbor...haha) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From orionis13 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 05:00:58 2003 From: orionis13 at yahoo.com (orionis13) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 05:00:58 -0000 Subject: It *IS* a rumor (was Re: "special fan" ...fact or fiction?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60094 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "GKJPO" wrote: > Did anyone ever find the reference to the "special fan" of Harry's > being the death in OoP? I looked through all the interviews I could find with JKR and never found a reference. The only factual > reference I have found is that the death is painful to write. That > means to me either that a. the circumstances of the death are painful or b. the character that dies is special to JKR. It also makes a difference when folks are guessing who the death will be. > > If someone did find the interview with the special fan quote, could > you please post the reference? > > Thanks > Kristen ~~~~~~~~~ It is a rumor. Nobody has been able to find a reference because it was originally posted in The Unofficial Harry Potter Fan Club,(UHPFC) which is down now. There, it was posted as a *rumor*, whereas some other things were *facts*. Remember? Someone named Spiderweb said that JKR said (lol) that another person will die and that will be a special fan of Harry's, but s/he never said where s/he read that, let alone a link to the interview. Actually, the whole post was in italics which implied that it was a rumor. I really really hope that clears things out. Anyway, it's only 8 days for you lucky lucky people, to know what'll happen. Have a Happy Harry Potter Waiting! ~Nell~ From coolksat at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 05:37:54 2003 From: coolksat at yahoo.com (Cora) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:37:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snapes assignment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030612053754.55216.qmail@web20508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60095 Brooke wrote: > I think that is a great idea & it would add a really > interesting > plotline to have Snape use polyjuice & go to Voldie > as a spy for > Dumbledore. Cool theory! > Another thought... I am not entirely convinced that > Snape is part > vampire, but I think it is a definite possibility > that he might be. > If he is, maybe Dumbledore, in anticipation of > another major conflict > with the dark side, wants Snape to go round up as > many vampires as he > can to get them fighting on Dumbledore's side. I > know it's kind of > out there, but I think that Hagrid & Madame Maxime > will be doing the > same thing for Dumbledore with the giants. > Or maybe (still saying if Snape is in fact a > vampire) Snape will go > spy on Voldie and/or the death eaters while > transformed into a bat so > that no one will know it's him. > I could be totally off base, but you never know with > JKR!! The only problem I see with this theory is Voldemort's apparent ability to see through lies or deception. At the end of SS/PS, he was able to tell that Harry was lying about what he saw in the mirror of Erised. Plus, in GoF, when Frank tells Voldemort that his wife will be worried if he does not come home, Voldemort instinctively knows that he is indeed not married. If Snape tries to play the double agent, Voldemort may see through his facade and suspect the truth... Cora __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From SusanXG at hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 06:00:37 2003 From: SusanXG at hotmail.com (Susan XG) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 01:00:37 -0500 Subject: MoM: Fudge out, Malfoy in Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60096 The Sergeant Majorette says: Not that JKR doesn't know these things, I just don't think her sourcing of her plots is that deep. But I love your analysis -- have you written any fanfics? Awww, thanks! I don't necessarily think that JKR knows that...but it is too bizarre. I definitely think it has a good chance of happening. I've attempted to write fanfiction (for other fandoms), but I've never attempted a Harry Potter one. I just read them, but perhaps I should. Hmmmm.... Thanks for the inspiration! Susan :o) http://www.prophecygirl.com _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From distractedone at comcast.net Thu Jun 12 07:12:57 2003 From: distractedone at comcast.net (Merlin) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 03:12:57 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction References: <0HGB005IP9JYXK@mtain11.icomcast.net> Message-ID: <027101c330b2$0d710b10$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60097 Heidi Tandy Wondered: > If you think that Lupin is really James, the you'd have to concluse that Snape saw James' > name on the Map at the end of Book 3. Why wouldn't he say something in the shack, amid his > hysteria, rather than acting and speaking to Sirius as if he thought Sirius had betrayed > James? Because James is actually in Remus' body thanks to a switching spell. Another clue that I forgot to mention was that Lupin burst into the room in a flash of red sparks, the color of a true Gryffindor(AKA heir of Godric). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From distractedone at comcast.net Thu Jun 12 07:20:43 2003 From: distractedone at comcast.net (Merlin) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 03:20:43 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction References: Message-ID: <027c01c330b3$23391a90$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60098 >> My prediction is that James and Lilly are not really dead. With >>all the clues about switching spells throughout the first four >>books, and then with the funny way that Lupin acts around Harry on >>a couple of occasions I something is not right. I think they were >>switched out of there bodies and then hidden away with another >>secret keeper performing the Fidelius charm because they suspected >>Peter. This way if they were right about Peter then Voldemort >>would think they were dead and not continue to look for them. >> >> Merlin "vixinalizardqueen" asked: > >But why would they stay in hiding after Voldemort was "dead" and >gone?! Would they really leave their son to be cruelly brought up by >Lily's witch-hating sister and brother-in-law?! Well Not by choice. They knew that the Death Eaters were still out there. Eventually I am sure they found out that Voldemort had not died completely. Hagrid for one was convinced 10 years later that he wasn't dead, so just imagine what James and Lily could have discovered working undercover. Merlin Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From iluvgahan at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 08:37:00 2003 From: iluvgahan at yahoo.com (iluvgahan) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:37:00 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60099 >>>>Ersatz Harry, wondering if the gift of a knife >>>>is a bad luck omen Now me , Christina Hiya! I am a little behind in my post readings, but I saw this question a few times and I thought I'd give you an answer (I don't recall seeing an answer to this question). In my culture (Eastern European) there is a superstition that if you give the gift of a knife to a friend, it will "sever the relationship". I also came across this superstition in a book I had read a long time ago. We know that Sirius went to alert the "old crowd", maybe he is not coming back? :( I'm fully expecting Howlers for that last line, lol. I know I deserve it. Welcome back to me, I haven't posted in a while :) And sorry if it posts twice => Computer is fighting against me today. <= Christina "I solemnly swear that I am up to no good." From gypseelynn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 04:41:25 2003 From: gypseelynn at yahoo.com (Rebecca Sylvester) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 21:41:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030612044125.19157.qmail@web41505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60100 Ok, I don't like making predictions because then when they don't come true I feel like an idiot, however - at the risk or eternal humilition (lol) - I will bite the bullet and make my prediction about OoP. I think that something will happen between Harry and Hermione, and that they will "take their relationship to the next level". I think that this new relationship will infuriate Ron who will decide to "end" his friendship with both of them. Jealousy talking there. However, I think something will happen where Ron, because of his anger towards Harry, will put Harry in danger and he himself will get hurt trying to prevent injury coming to Harry. After all of this happens, the trio will see how foolishly they have been acting and make up...once again becomming best friends. Although I'm not discounting the Harry/Hermione relationship lasting longer. Ok, folks, there it is...there's my *one* OoP prediction...hope you liked it (or at least got a good laugh out of it!!!) Beckah 9 days, 1 hour, 20 minutes to go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From night_minstrel at hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 02:04:11 2003 From: night_minstrel at hotmail.com (night_minstrel7) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 02:04:11 -0000 Subject: Voldemort = Lich? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60101 Paul Prideaux: > I think that some of the later may be paraphrased in > the former, but this isn't certain. I've seen the > Lich story in several different ways, but the core > (powerful wizard, dark magic, form of immortality) > seems common to all of them. This made me excited enough to dance out of lurkdom for a second. That's a *really* neat insight. I think it works, too. It's interesting that such a big deal is made of Harry saying Voldie's name all the time (It will be intersting to see if the name "Tom Riddle" gets more use from Harry.). Wow, I'm going to have to find my D&D books and do some reading... Voldemort is definitely more than a level 18 wizard! :) Yay! Thanks. I love this kind of stuff. Hmm... He're some speculation for you. Might the destruction of Voldemort's skull become important (as it is for a demilich?) Okay, now I'm reaching. I'll go sit in my dark corner again. --Tylin From MadameSSnape at aol.com Thu Jun 12 09:18:35 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 05:18:35 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Your One Biggest *Hope* for OOP Message-ID: <33.39e87301.2c199f6b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60102 In a message dated 6/11/2003 11:36:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cindysphynx at comcast.net writes: > Even worse, Hermione comes back as a ghost. Oh, yuck. She guides > her two pals around, helping them defeat the forces of evil, bopping > Voldemort on the back of the head with a frying pan. Frying pan??? Never!!!! She'd use Hogwarts - A History!!! Sherrie (who really rather likes NHN, but maybe because she's got a soft spot for John Cleese - & who thinks the Bloody Baron & the Grey Lady are going to be VERY important!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 06:49:37 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 06:49:37 -0000 Subject: OOP Re: Your One Biggest *Hope* for OOP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60103 <<<--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." wrote: I really, really hope that no one -- and I do mean no one -- comes back as a ghost. The horrid possibilities are endless. Winky or Dobby die and come back as a ghost. Ugh.>>> The Sergeant Majorette says: Ugh indeed. No ghosts! As for Winky and Dobby, Scholastic's blurb talks about a renegade house-elf. I'm hoping that Winky does the obvious thing and binds herself to Mrs. Weasley, and that it's Dobby who goes gonzo. I thought the house-elf thing was sort of Jar-Jar Binks until I read that house-elves are JKR's tweak of the shomaker's elves folklore -- they do all the shoemaker's work quite happily until his wife takes pity on their nakedness and sews them all little outfits; then they just as happily disappear forever. --JDR From vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be Thu Jun 12 10:23:31 2003 From: vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be (Vicky Gwosdz) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 10:23:31 -0000 Subject: New Eye Theorem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60104 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chuck" wrote: > > JKR may literally mean that Harry has his mom's eyes. > > Ten bucks says Lily switched eyes with Harry. > Good one! I never really thought of that one, but it might get to be really interesting if that were true. And I agree that the several remarks to Harry "having Lily's eyes" must ean something. My 2 cts Vicky From morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 12:15:19 2003 From: morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com (Morgan D.) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 05:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Your One Biggest *Hope* for OOP In-Reply-To: <1055383637.3312.77400.m13@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030612121519.24295.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60105 Derannimer inquired: > what do people most *hope* will happen in OOP? I > mean, *one* hope? And now Morgan D. answers: My *one* biggest, truest, deepest, most desperate hope for OotP is that Sirius' name will be cleared and that Harry will finally leave those Dursleys and live with him. It's also one of my yawn-inducer predictions that I won't get that. Not now, and possibly not at all. *sends murderous glare in JKR's direction* So, for a more realistic hope, but just as passionate: I hope I'll still like Sirius when I finish reading OotP. And Derannimer suggested: > Me, I'm hoping Lucius Malfoy becomes the new Minister of Magic. And now Morgan comments: I really like that idea. But maybe not for this book. I'd like to see Fudge's acting first, not as a baddie, but as a short-sighted bureaucrat trying to keep his job the only way he knows. A character like that could bring trouble in extraordinary proportions without falling in the black/white, good-vs-evil pattern. But Lucius as the new Minister in Book 6? That would be lovely. Morgan D. Hogwarts Letters - http://www.hogwartsletters.hpg.com.br __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Thu Jun 12 12:30:52 2003 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (edisbevan) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:30:52 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction 21st June In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60106 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." wrote: > > Now that June 21 is just around the corner (Wow! -- We'll be >reading OoP next weekend!), maybe it's time to get *serious* here. June 21st is Midsummers Night. Shortest night of the year (Northern Hemisphere) and in many traditions a time of magic and mystery. Water and potions take on peculiar powers on that day for example. Remeber 'A Midsummers Nights Dream'. My prediction is that something will happen in the book that can only happen on the night of 21st/22nd June. Maybe the special place that has been mentioned can only be visted on that night... Or predictions start coming concrete (its the time when people see ahead for life partners for example...) But I think someone will play with potions to spectacular and unexpected effect. More specifically they will be herbology-based pertions and the person causing the upsets will be an experimenting Neville. Anyway, back in muggle reading worlds, determined readers will hit this part while it is still 21st June for them realtime... Edis From caeruleussum at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 06:21:32 2003 From: caeruleussum at yahoo.com (caeruleussum) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 06:21:32 -0000 Subject: It *IS* a rumor (was Re: "special fan" ...fact or fiction?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60107 The only place I have been able to find that names the "Special Fan" dying is in the fan fiction version of OotP. caeruleussum From nmfry at hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 12:35:46 2003 From: nmfry at hotmail.com (N Fry) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:35:46 +0000 Subject: TBAY: Happy Birthday!Magic Dishwasher Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60108 With all the excitement over the upcoming release date (finally!), I find myself wanting to post, but it's getting harder and harder to find some little bit of canon that hasn't been discussed to death. I've been wanting to try a TBAY, so I figured that now was a good a time as any. This seemed like a nice safe little subject to get my feet wet with... Grey Wolf was sitting in a sunny patch of rare morning light shining through the windows of the Safe House. Such bright dawns came less and less frequently due to the low storm clouds that had settled over the bay many months back. Like many of the area's inhabitants, Grey's thoughts were on the approaching Hurricane Jo. He appreciatively looked around him at the sturdy walls of the Safe House, wondering about the safety of the theorists who insisted on sailing the Bay instead of building their theories on the shore. His thoughts were temporarily interrupted by the shadow of an owl as it swooped past the window. "Mail must be here," he thought to himself. Just as he was preparing to turn back to his latest Dishwasher Manifesto, Sneaky, the Safe House's resident elf, entered carrying a colorful envelope. "Excusing me, Mr. Grey Wolf, but you might wants to be reading this." He curiously studied the front of the envelope. It was addressed to Magic Dishwasher, c/o The Safe House, Theory Bay. He didn't recognize the return address, being located somewhere outside the Bay. Carefully using one claw like a letter opener, he sliced it open and removed a generic store bought card. The front featured a cute little cartoon bunny holding up a cupcake with a single candle stuck into the top of it. Across the top was the message "You're One!" Slightly confused by this strange greeting, he withdrew a folded piece of parchment from inside the card. ***** Happy birthday Magic Dishwasher! It's hard to believe that it's been a year since we were first introduced to you. I still remember the first post in which Grey Wolf unleashed you onto the world. On June 12, 2002, Grey Wolf wrote in message 39744: Let's suppose *for the sake of an example* that other perfectly valid forms include an enchanted dishwasher and the egg of some odd bird (pick one at random form FB, if you want). [referring to Vapormort's options for regaining a body] At the time I thought, "An enchanted dishwasher? That's kind of a random example. Highly amusing..." Little did any of us realize at the time how you would grow from that one little example. Look at you now! You've gotten so big! Although I'm not sure that I agree with you, it's been incredibly interesting to see how you've evolved and how adamantly your proud family has defended you. I've got to admire their dedication and patience. I probably would have given up a long time ago. Good luck surviving Hurricane Jo. After all the attacks you've weathered so far, it would almost be a pity to see you with a big can(n)on hole in your side. Sincerely, Nik ***** Melody started to enter the room, searching for Grey Wolf, but stopped in the doorway when she spotted him. She wasn't sure what he was reading, but it was obviously having quite the emotional effect on him. She cleared her throat to make her presence known. He looked up, surprised, and hurriedly raised a massive paw to dab at his teary eyes. "Umm...Grey? I'm not interrupting anything, am I? Because I can come back later..." "No, no! It's alright." He waved her into the room. "I was just reading some mail. The Magic Dishwasher just got it's first birthday card." Mel tried to suppress a smile as Grey glanced through the doorway into the kitchen, where the dishwasher quietly hummed as it cleaned the breakfast dishes. In a tone that could only be described as pure parental pride, he announced, "Our little theory is a year old today." Then, shaking his head in disbelief, he quietly added, "They grow up so quickly, don't they?" ~ nik (who hopes Grey isn't upset with her characterization of him. Wolves often get a bad reputation, especially when they so fearlessly defend their territory. But I'm sure there's a cuddly little puppy somewhere under that gruff exterior...maybe? *backs away slowly* Maybe not?) _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From blaisezz at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 12 12:05:54 2003 From: blaisezz at yahoo.co.uk (blaisezz) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:05:54 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's letter and Harry's money Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60109 Hi everyone, I've only recently joined the group, so i'm sorry if these issues have been dicussed before. I started my re-read for OOP this morning (I know I'm cutting it a bit fine but i've had other things too worry about, namely a-levels), and I started to wonder about two things: 1. Does anyone know what happened to the letter that Dumbledore wrote to the Dursley's and left with Harry? Also what exactly was written in this letter? It obviously spoke of the Potters' death as Petunia talks of them being 'blown up'. I was wondering what else he had written... 2. Harry gets money out of his own vault at Gringott's. This money has been left to him by his parents, but it doesn't say anything about their personal vaults. I guess they were probably dissolved after their deaths and the money given to Harry, but if not it certainly opens up some other possibilities. For one thing people don't only keep money in the bank but also papers, jewellry, treasures etc. If James' and Lily's vaults still exist, what do you think they have in their vaults? Anyway, there's my first post, wondering what everyone thinks... Vicky From quigonginger at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 12:57:06 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:57:06 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60110 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." > wrote: > > > > Now that June 21 is just around the corner (Wow! -- We'll be > >reading OoP next weekend!), maybe it's time to get *serious* here. Ok, I'll give it a go. I'm going with the Florence theme too. I think we will find out that she was kissing Snape. (Oh, how I envy that woman!) And that she was actually a Muggle-born who he was seeing on the sly behind the Slytherins' backs. After they are caught, he is forced to renounce her, and she takes up with Sirius. (Now I really envy her) She is then killed by DE's (there went the envy), and Snape feels that she should have protected better by Sirius, who blames Snape, believing him to be involved out of jealousy. Thus their hatred towards each other. Her death is the thing that turned Snape 'round right. Of course, now that I have posted this, she'll probably end up being Mrs. Lestrange and I'll look goofy. Ginger, who would really like to learn about the Fourth Man before it kills her! From silmariel at telefonica.net Thu Jun 12 10:22:44 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (silmariel) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:22:44 +0200 Subject: Arthurian Legand /Draco Redeemed? [HPforGrownups] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200306121222.44188.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 60112 The Sergeant Majorette says: Arthurian legend, eastern European history, obscure folklore: fascinating as all this stuff is (really - no sarcasm intended) I don't think much of it has a lot to do with JKR's process. silmariel (me): I think you're right. The use of simbols set the mood, but it's a tool, not an strict scenario. Oher legend/mythological references: James animal form - Harry patronus (pagan king reference, as in Red Robin Hood) Griffindor animal, colors: see Richard the Lionheart (and maybe plantagenet) heraldica Serpents: ahem, more pagan. I need a British point-of-view, but I think emblems or nicks of the war of two roses families can be related to howgarts. Laura said: That doesn't mean I think he'll be redeemed. I've seen people redeem everyone from Wormtail to Lucius to Fudge to Dudley. I'm waiting for someone to redeem Voldemort soon. =) The fact is- not EVERYONE can be a good guy, or there'd be no conflict. silmariel (me): But that doesn't mean draco is bad. I've seen 'good' boys/girls turning into bad persons as adults, and I've seen (three friends) conflictive teens turning into caring, frienly,let's-help-other-human-beings individuals. As an example of their bad reputation: It was said of one he went to carry his best friend a news just to enjoy seeing his friend's broken feelings: his girlfriend had died in an accident. Draco can be all that canon shows (elucubrations apart) and still turn good without bangsty plots. It's real life, and I found him somehow changed in GoF. Loony Loopy: I interpreted Draco's "warning" as more of an insecure brat showing off what he knows rather than an act of kindness. Basically, he's taunting the Trio with "I know something you don't know." He tells the Trio what's going on because he wants to see them panic. He thinks he'll be entertained by their fear. silmariel (me): The same applies here. Even if he wants to help, expressing like and idiot brat is nice if they do what you want. Deliberately hiding you are doing a favour is an option. From madaxe at starspath.com Thu Jun 12 12:50:24 2003 From: madaxe at starspath.com (brassgryphon) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:50:24 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60113 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wayne Cochran" wrote: > Cindy C.wrote: > > > > Now that June 21 is just around the corner (Wow! -- We'll be > reading > > OoP next weekend!), maybe it's time to get *serious* here. No > more > > having a whole bunch of vague predictions to your name. Maybe > it's > > time for a gut-check -- time for anyone who's willing to stand on > > just one OoP prediction to step forward. > I get the feeling that the "Sit down, I am going to tell you everything" talk is the same thing Dumbledore promised to tell Harry when he was ready in PS, Man With Two Faces. However, I also think that the reason Voldemort wanted to kill Harry is a 7th-book-level secret (What if the Heir of Gryffindor theory is true, for instance?) and thusly Dumbledore will be interrupted and die before he has a chance to get back to the conversation. (Yet another dismal prediction that I hope I was dead wrong about.) Brass Gryphon From susanawhite123 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 13:28:05 2003 From: susanawhite123 at yahoo.com (Sue White) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 06:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HPforGrownups] speculation about the Children of Death Eaters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030612132805.27933.qmail@web14108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60114 New here, and please forgive me in advance if this has already been discussed. I think it's quite a remarkable coincidence that the children of the death eaters; Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle are the same age. When I think about the children of the DEs I started wondering why JKR decided to have the Death Eaters have children at all? I don't think it's just a clever plot device to give Harry convient enemies. I think (though would have a hard time substanciating from the canon) that the births of the children of the DEs coincides with the DEs downfall of Voldemort. They had a change of priorities due to their duty to their children, since even DEs are bound to the higher magical laws, which bind them to greater responsibilites. Sue __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Thu Jun 12 13:45:50 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 09:45:50 -0400 Subject: Quotes from OOTP Message-ID: <00cd01c330e8$f0121a50$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60115 Ok, these quotes are getting a little ridiculous. Is there anyway to temporarily moderate everyone (well, except for the admins and elves of course) until Book 5 is released? I'm fearful of more of these getting through as it seems people are not heading your warnings. I don't mind the little non-specific spoilers that we've gotten thus far. But these direct quotes before the book is released is not something i want to read...and is not legal for me to read if i've read you correctly. ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From artsylynda at aol.com Thu Jun 12 13:47:20 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 09:47:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] my *one* rock solid OoP prediction Message-ID: <1dd.b94a812.2c19de68@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60116 Merlin: > Lupin burst into the room in a flash of red sparks, the color of a true > Gryffindor(AKA heir of Godric). > whoa, hold on here -- in GoF, the Champions were told to send up red sparks if they got in trouble in the maze and needed to be rescued, and only one of the Champions was a Gryffindor, so red sparks can't be confined to Gryffindors, or the Heir of Griffindor, only. Also, in PS/SS, Hagrid told the kids (who were in the Forbidden Forest on detention) to send up green sparks if they found the unicorn, red sparks if they were in trouble (I think I got those in the right order), and this group of students included a Slytherin (Malfoy) so a "flash of red sparks" doesn't signify someone being the Heir of Gryffindor, or even from Gryffindor house, IMO. As for the switching spell, where James took over Remus's body -- if this really happened, where's Remus? Did he die at the Potters' house in James' place? Why would James leave his family? And since Voldie can see through deception (apparently, many examples of which were given in a recent post), wouldn't he see that the "James" he killed was not the real James Potter? He believes he killed James Potter -- he told Harry so in GoF (he told Harry to "stand up and die like a man, like your father" -- something like that, I don't have the book handy) I don't think this "body switch" happened at all -- it doesn't seem logical -- or logistically possible -- to me. JMO. Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 14:04:40 2003 From: honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com (honeycakehorse03) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:04:40 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Names Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60117 We know that language can be a powerful weapon and Dumbledore shows in every book again that you can make people believe or disbelieve something only based on your wording. We all noticed that Voldemort is called different things in the books, from Lord Voldemort, to only Voldemort, to You-Know-Who, to He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, to the Dark Lord. I looked through the books and tried to determine if the name you use for Voldemort has any parallels with your opinions about him or how you feel about him. So far my basic findings are: You-Know-Who is what he is called by almost everybody. Mainly the normal people on the street (Madam Rosmerta, Bagman, Rita Skeeter, the Weasleys, Hagrid) but also Professor McGonagall, Minister Fudge and Harry (but that only out of consideration for others). The names Voldemort and Lord Voldemort are pretty much interchangeable between the people who use them with the exception of Voldemort and Tom Riddle himself who always says Lord Voldemort. Those people are mainly Dumbledore, Remus, Sirius and Harry, but on occasion also Lord Voldemort: Quirrell, Crouch Sr. (trial), Fudge, Voldemort: Peter and Crouch Jr. and McGonagall (forced). The Dark Lord is mainly used with supporters of Voldemort or people who are close to supporters of him. Namely: Crouch Sr., Karkaroff, woman at the trial (Mrs. Lestrange?), Snape, Draco, Dobby, Lucius, Tom Riddle. It's interesting to see that this name is also mentioned by Ernie Macmillan, Trelawney and in the Valentine Harry receives (Ginny?). He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named is used by Rita Skeeter, Karkaroff, Crouch Sr.,Dobby (and consequently once be Harry), Trelawney and Pettigrew. >From my PoV He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named is used by people who are very intimidated by Voldemort or in public writings (Skeeter article). I especially want to have a look at Trelawney and Dumbledore in this post as they seem to be the most interesting to me. Dumbledore always calls Voldemort by his name, as does Harry, but Dumbledore says more often than not Lord Voldemort instead of Voldemort which IMO shows that a) either Voldemort is really a Lord or b) that Dumbledore has a certain respect for Voldemort (which doesn't necessarily bad as it shows that he doesn't underestimate him.) On the other hand there is Trelawney who uses Dark Lord mainly in her vision in PoA but afterwards also uses He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. And when we look at the list of people who say Dark Lord, I think Trelawney is going to turn out to be a supporter of Voldemort. Any other thoughts? Sabrina From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 14:14:04 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 07:14:04 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's letter and Harry's money References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60118 Vicky wrote: If James' and Lily's vaults still exist, what do you think they have in their vaults? Me writes: Probably something really, really nifty. But I'd like to add a question: What does Sirius have in his vault? IIRC, the British editions included the vault number--putting it very near the vault containing the SS... If we assume that the SS is in Gringott's highest security level (Was that stated in canon?) then what the squid does Sirius have in his besides gold? -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be Thu Jun 12 14:14:04 2003 From: vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be (Vicky Gwosdz) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:14:04 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60119 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "honeycakehorse03" wrote: > On the other hand there is Trelawney who uses Dark Lord mainly in > her vision in PoA but afterwards also uses He-Who-Must-Not-Be- Named. > And when we look at the list of people who say Dark Lord, I think > Trelawney is going to turn out to be a supporter of Voldemort. > > Any other thoughts? She can be for all I'm concerned. I never really liked her anyway. Maybe Hary gets to kill her in an attempt to save Snape. Mmm, the most annoying character killed while Harry saves my favorite teacher! A lot of wishfull thinking on my part though! My 2 cts, Vicky From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Thu Jun 12 14:14:52 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:14:52 -0000 Subject: SHIP some OOP from JKR interview In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60120 I am reposting a portion of a previous post, in order to show that JKR never said that Harry develops an interest in Hermione: The interview, or rather television program, that we are talking about can be found here (actually a paraphrase by some of the television viewers, after it had aired on 28 Dec 2001): http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrshow.shtml The news report that you had linked to, referring to this program can be found here: http://www.ananova.com/entertainment/story/sm_480162.html The Ananova news report: 'There will also be further romance following on from Harry Potter And The Goblet Of Fire in which he has a date with a quidditch team- mate - and develops more of an interest in pal Hermione.' And the viewer's report on the television program: 'There was no mention of any specific relationships beginning, but it's clear that one of the sub-stories of the next book is relationships and lurrrve.' Comparing the two reports, it is clear that the viewer's report of the aired television program shows that it reveals a good deal less than the pre-airing reports, of which the Ananova report was one, had claimed. Here is a discussion thread about this whole mess from just before to just after the program first aired: http://www.fictionalley.org/fictionalleypark/forums/showthread.php? threadid=1598 Bill From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 14:26:41 2003 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:26:41 -0000 Subject: Voldemort = Lich? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60121 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Paul Prideaux" wrote: Does anyone who is familiar with the mythical undead creature known as a Lich agree that it seems likely that V is one? For those who don't know, a Lich is a powerful wizard has used dark magic to gain a form of immortality. This seems to agree with what DD says to Harry in CoS when discussing Riddle's journey after leaving school. Here's some exerpts that seem to link this creature to Voldemort: "The lich is, perhaps, the single most powerful form of undead known to exist. It seeks to further its own power at all costs" "It is also known as The One-Who's-Name-Is-Not-Spoken, The Evil One, The Soulless Mage, to name but a few" (first one rings a bell!) "The Lich is gaunt and skeletal in form" (as V is described in GoF) "Most were originally high powered wizards in their mortal life.. " "the lich has no interest in good or evil as we understand it, the creature will do whatever it must to further its own causes. Since it feels that the living are of little importance, the lich is often viewed as evil by those who encounter it" (seems to agree with what V says to Harry in PS(film) about there being no good or evil, only power) "Few liches call themselves by their old names when the years have drained the last vestiges of their humanity from them. Instead, they often adopt pseudonyms like ``the Black Hand'' or ``the Forgotten King.''" (reminisent of "The Dark Lord"?) And here's one that may come to play in the future! "Learning the true name of a lich is rumored to confer power over the creature." Ideas? Pryd. x ------------ Very interesting indeed - and to be honest - this is one posting I wish I hadn't read. If it actually comes down to the fact that it's his *real name* (when spoken to his face) that will finally destroy him - I would rather not have known :-( Inge From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 14:56:07 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 07:56:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another "Spoiler"! Re: Can't post re: AOL/Amazon.com snippet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030612145607.40581.qmail@web40510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60122 --- marephraim wrote: > OMG! Another excerpt from the Book! WOW! This is > sooooo cool! Where did this excerpt come from? I looked on TLC and didn't see it, and I think it seems kinda bogus, or unauthorized. From the small bit I read, it seems like the equivalent of the graveyard scene from GoF...why on earth would they put out something THAT plot revealing in a spoiler?!? Can someone please tell us the source of this and then explain why, after the huge controversy w/yesterday's audio snippet, this LONG, highly revealing spoiler was directly, word for word, posted on the list? ~Kathryn, who is grumpy with spoilers to begin with, and is more grumpy when they are posted w/o a source __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From leef at comcast.net Thu Jun 12 14:55:24 2003 From: leef at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:55:24 -0000 Subject: Pseudo-spoiler to lighten the wait to the release of OoP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60123 The voice of Jack Webb rises over ominous Dragnet music.... "The 'spoiler' you are about to read is untrue, the names haven't been changed to project the ridiculous." ==== Begin bogus excerpt here ==== OMG! Another excerpt from the Book! WOW! This is sooooo cool! s p o i l e r b e g i n s h e r e When Harry awoke and opened his eyes the dense darkness that surrounded him almost made him think they were still closed. His head ached and his bones felt stretched making every muscle feel pulled and sore. Slowly, his eyes became adjusted to the dimness. He shook his head and tried to look around. The limp flattened bodies of Wormtail, Hermione and the others still lay scattered where they had fallen. The contents of the giant cauldron seemed to still be fuming as the acid-like potion scorched the ground. The cauldron itself had finally come to rest against an old larch, and droplets of the noxious liquid were dripping onto the roots of the tree, that seemed already to be withering. A cold high-pitched voice began to chuckle behind him making Harry jump and turn, although the effort made him ache even more painfully. "It is now over, Harry Potter," said the sneering malevolent voice of Lord Voldemort. "Dumbledore's pitiful attempt to defeat me has failed and the Order of the Phoenix will rise no more. It would have been so much easier for you all to have simply submitted to my rule. But here we are, and there they are." Harry felt hatred well up inside himself like he had never known before. The images of Dumbledore, Sirius, Hagrid, Dobby, Mr Weasley, Ron and Hermione all filled his senses at once and rage began to well up inside his mind. His hand clutched the charred remains of his wand as he glared up at the spectral figure of the wizard who had been responsible for every sorrow and loss he had ever experienced. "You rotten murderer! You killed them all and for what? Power? Fame? Why have you done all this and what do you think you've really accomplished?" Harry hissed through clenched teeth, feeling a power begin to well up inside as he clutched the stub of his wand. "Why, you ask? O dear boy, you have always been too stupid to comprehend the bigger picture haven't you," Voldemort said with a note of indulgent humour in his voice. "Did you not ever consider that without me you would be nothing, just another literary fiction selling in small quantities to a forlorn group of muggles with little in their lives to commend them? I am the reason for your existence! Did you think it was your parents? No, it was me, and I'm the reason you are known around the world, the reason otherwise sensible people read and reread books that are supposedly aimed at children -- how touching that no one has noticed the very large vocabulary, so outside the ken of youngsters. If not for me, Lord Voldemort, Harry Potter would not command publishing success on a scale unprecedented since the New Testament! People would not spend hours discussing every misplaced, comma every possible plot twist and odd choice of terminology, the history of creatures that simply never existed until a Scottish pauper penned them over coffee stained pages. And now it's come to this moment. Good bye, Harry Potter." Voldemort laughed and Harry began to shake at the rage that was filling his mind and near the point of inexorable action. As if in slow motion, he saw Voldemort raise his wand in Harry's direction and begin to open his mouth. At the same moment he felt his wand hand jerk into position and the blackened stump of his own wand begin to quiver. Before Voldemort could react, Harry unleashed the spell. "Momumentous Lucre Literaritas!" he cried, and a shower of pound notes, dollars, euros, franks and other monies converged from every direction, knocking down the evil wizard and burying him in a mountain of gold, silver, copper, and coloured paper. He heard Voldemort's scream fade as the mountain continued to grow and suffocate him. There was a tremendous flash. Harry fell unconscious as a deep blackness shrouded him. When he awoke Madam Pomfrey was wiping his brow with a cool cloth. "What, Voldemort... he...," Harry faltered for words. "There, there, dear. You just be quiet. Everything is alright." Suddenly, Harry was aware of a shadow at the foot of the bed. He realised that somehow his wand was still in his hand. He pointed it blindly at the shadow, while standing up on the bed so quickly that Madam Pomfrey fell backwards into the floor. "You keep away from me!" He shouted. "You're going to die for all the suffering you caused me and everyone I've ever loved!" The shadow threw its hands into the air. "Harry, Harry, you must calm yourself," said the gentle and familiar voice of Albus Dumbledore. "There are many things I need to tell you, Harry, if you'll do me the pleasure of not jinxing me before I have a chance." Dumbfounded, Harry lowered his wand and stared at the elderly wizard. Dumbledore lowered his hands and surveyed Harry through his half- moon glasses. 'It is time,' he said 'for me to tell you what I should have told you five years ago, Harry. Please sit down. I am going to tell you everything.' This spoiler is dedicated to Lord Fishcake, TLC's happy poltergeist. ==== End of Bogus Excerpt ==== From leef at comcast.net Thu Jun 12 15:15:26 2003 From: leef at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 15:15:26 -0000 Subject: Another "Spoiler"! Re: Can't post re: AOL/Amazon.com snippet In-Reply-To: <20030612145607.40581.qmail@web40510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60125 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Wolber wrote: Dear Kathryn (and all others) It was and is a spoof. After re-evaluating it the moderators have allowed me to repost it (with different headers, etc.). Sorry to all for the confusion. The repentant but recalcitrant, MarEphraim From vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be Thu Jun 12 15:21:03 2003 From: vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be (Vicky Gwosdz) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 15:21:03 -0000 Subject: Another "Spoiler"! Re: Can't post re: AOL/Amazon.com snippet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60126 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marephraim" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Wolber > wrote: > > Dear Kathryn (and all others) > > It was and is a spoof. After re-evaluating it the moderators have > allowed me to repost it (with different headers, etc.). > > Sorry to all for the confusion. > > The repentant but recalcitrant, > > MarEphraim It was fun to read though, and the waiting is still so long, so a good laugh now and then helps. Did you write it yourself? Verry verry funny! My 2 cts, Vicky From ultimatesen at aol.com Thu Jun 12 15:33:12 2003 From: ultimatesen at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 15:33:12 -0000 Subject: Can't post re: AOL/Amazon.com snippet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60127 I don't want to post too much under this thread because knowing me, I'll end up fouling up and posting something I'm not supposed to. BUT~ I finally heard this snippet this morning. I found the link under TLC. (Thanks Felinia but yesterday I was about in tears because I flat couldn't find it! hehe It's cool though). The whole thing sounds rather Anne Frankish to me. Like theyre in hiding? This would kind of tie into the possible war that's going to happen (Ultimate Unofficial Guide.. Restricted Section I believe). Oh I don't know. Did anyone get that vibe off it too or am I going loony loopy Lupin in the last 8 days 13 hrs 27 mins and 30 secs and pretty much letting my imagination get the best of me? BTW I wanted to ask, has anyone gone to one of those midnight parties before? Whats it like? Feel free to email me with your responses so the listelfs etc don't start floating around w/ scowls. =o) Sen From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu Jun 12 15:44:29 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 10:44:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction References: <20030612044125.19157.qmail@web41505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002201c330f9$83576a80$87ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 60128 Wasn't it in this book we were supposed to find out more about ghosts and what makes people become them? If so, then I predict we will find out more about Professor Binns. Mainly, that he was Tom Riddle's AK guinea pig. Binns falls asleep in front of the staff room fire. Riddle is wandering the school halls late one night when everyone's in bed. He sneaks into the staff room for some reason and finds Binns sleeping. He doesn't care much for Binns because he is boring. He has been itching to try out AK on a living person, but has been needing the right person. Binns is old, alone, and completely unknowing. No one will question that he died of natural causes. He successfully AK's Binns. Binns gets up the next morning and continues on, business as usual. At first he doesn't realize he is dead. The only thing unusual about the previous evening is a dream he had, where he heard a voice speaking softly and saw a burst of green light. Binns does not seem the type to dwell on dreams, so he doesn't mention it to anyone when it comes to the matter of his death. He is still hanging around because he was murdered, he doesn't consciously know it, and his murderer is still wreaking havoc. Maybe he can't have peace until he realizes that he was murdered, he knows who killed him, and that person is taken care of. My prediction is something about this will come into play. I have many other predictions, but I wanted to post something no one else has posted yet, and I've thought this about Binns for quite awhile. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From slstich at hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 15:19:34 2003 From: slstich at hotmail.com (shanna) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 10:19:34 -0500 Subject: Disabilities in HP? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60129 Hello everyone! I'm coming out of lurkdom for a moment with a random question I just thought of. I'm curious what would happen if for some reason a disabled person were to attend Hogwarts or another similar magical institution. I realize this is completely hypothetical and not likely to ever be included in canon, but as someone with a visual disability, I have to wonder. Would magic be a help or a hindrance to a disabled person? I can see both sides to this. The summoning charm, for example, would definitely come in handy at times! Of course it could be a problem if I were to try dueling, at least I think so anyway. I'm curious what everyone here thinks. I hope this question makes sense! Thanks in advance for your time! Shanna From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 15:49:23 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 15:49:23 -0000 Subject: What other curse scar? In-Reply-To: <001501c3306d$dd735ec0$11c8fea9@v1p6p6> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60130 ewdotson wrote: > In summary, "Harry's crazy." "No, his curse scar is > giving warnings about V." "That's crazy. Curse scars don't do that". It > makes perfect sense to me. At the very least, I'd say it's a perfectly > reasonable and sensible way for the scene to have been intended to have been > written. Me (Finwitch): And, if he said (as is in the UK version): "I have heard of curse scars acting as alarm bells before". This would, said in a disbelieving tone - indicate more on Harry being crazy and his testimony as not valid. Difference is that - with never, Fudge hasn't heard of it; without it, he _has_ heard of it, and considers that as a sign of insanity rather than truth. I believe that old Moody has told MOM several times about curse-scar alarm bells. Moody is considered paranoid - insane. Sure, Fudge considers Harry's hurting scar as an even value to Moody's _several_ warning curse-scars... (His skin is FULL of them!!) And speaking of Moody - any ideas on what kind of benefit his artificial foot gives him? Or is it just that he's too paranoid to drink a leg-grower and can't brew one himself? His magical eye, at least, is a benefit beyond having a new eye... -- Finwitch From amani at charter.net Thu Jun 12 15:52:45 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 11:52:45 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Crookshanks just a cat? Hmmmm... References: <1c3.aec9c6f.2c195a1f@aol.com> Message-ID: <003001c330fa$aa911d20$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60131 >JKR: Yes, part-Kneazle yes, he is, yes, well-spotted. >--Taryn PoPo: Hey Taryn, didn't know you were on this list! Me: I knew from some months ago that you were, but had never seen you on. ;) PoPo: OK, well, Crookshanks is part kneazle, but the question still remains if he is an animagus. Truly, what is the likelihood of him being a cross-gender anigamus? For all we know, those things don't even exist. If a person's animagus is indeed what kind of animal they resemble (Did I read that somewhere on a JKR chat/interview? Anyone know if it was ever confirmed?) it seems kind of unlikely they would become the opposite sex, even in animal form. That's just whacky for a children's book...it would confuse little kids...hehe. Even if Crookshanks is part kneazle, does this rule out the possibility of him being an animagus? Wizard animagi can probably not only be confined to muggle animals...what about wizard animals. I sure would like to see a witch or wizard transform into a dragon...how about Charlie Weasley! That would be a good time! Me: I think the likelihood of, one, transforming into a different gender and, two, transforming into a half-breed is pretty much impossible. I really can't understand why anyone would transform into a half-breed like Crookshanks is. I'll also probably be banging my head on the desk if there's another Animagus. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jprobins at ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 12 16:22:33 2003 From: jprobins at ix.netcom.com (James P. Robinson III) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 11:22:33 -0500 Subject: Some people can be weird about their pets... In-Reply-To: <1055371969.4277.44893.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030612111354.06b9fe80@popd.ix.netcom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60132 As the clock struck 10:52 PM 6/11/2003 +0000, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com took pen in hand and wrote: I believe the name Nagini is a diminutive of the Sanskrit/Prakrit/Pali word Naga. Naga means snake generally, but does also refer in some sources (The Ramayana IIRC and others) to monstrous (but good) demi-god type spiritual creatures in snake form. Just the same, I think Nagini is a ordinary snake which has grown extra large through LV's magic. It seems particularly intelligent because LV can converse with it. Jim >"pegruppel" : > >I suspect that a basilisk is lethal from the moment it hatches. All >of the mythology sources I checked (print and electronic) make no >mention of a basilisk needing to mature. > >I think Nagini is some type of venoumous serpent. "Nag" is the name >of one of the cobras in the Kipling story "Riki-Tiki-Tavi." >And "Naja naja" is the Latin binomial for several cobras (subspecies >get another name tacked onto the first two) of the Indian >subcontinent (that's an abbreviated description). > >Although JKR said that Frank saw a diamond pattern on the snake as it >slitered past him, I think it was shadows on her (Nagini is female) >back. There are a few venomous snakes in that part of Europe, but >none of them get as big as Nagini is supposed to be. A king cobra is >the largest of the venomous snakes. But if it were, I think we'd >have heard about the classic rearing up and hooding that these snakes >perform. It seems from Voldie and Peter's conversation that Voldie >has been subsisting on snake venom (yuck). (All from OOP, American >addition) From amani at charter.net Thu Jun 12 16:34:16 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:34:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death Eaters IQ References: <20030611154538.95678.qmail@web20711.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009d01c33100$7766e960$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60133 Amanda wrote: I am, however, fairly sure neither Crabbe NOR Goyle will become the next Dark Lord. God forbid; the Wizarding World would be in even worse trouble than it is with Voldemort on the loose! Melanie: That brings up an interesting point though, does Voldie only recruit intelligent people or does he recruit anyone willing to support him. I am inclined to think that he lets all who want to join up with him do so..but they may or may not be given any jobs to do. But I do have to wonder about the Death Eaters IQ given that Wormtail has such a high position in the eyes of the Dark Lord. Me: But is Wormtail really all that stupid? No one seems to have suspected him, even as they suspected Lupin. He managed to keep his true intentions secret from his best friends. I'm of the opinion that Wormtail has a dangerous amount of cunning. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 16:42:33 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 16:42:33 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death Eaters IQ Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60134 >Melanie: >That brings up an interesting point though, does Voldie only recruit >intelligent people or does he recruit anyone willing to support him. I am >inclined to think that he lets all who want to join up with him do so..but >they may or may not be given any jobs to do. But I do have to wonder about >the Death Eaters IQ given that Wormtail has such a high position in the >eyes of the Dark Lord. > >Me: >But is Wormtail really all that stupid? No one seems to have suspected him, >even as they suspected Lupin. He managed to keep his true intentions secret >from his best friends. I'm of the opinion that Wormtail has a dangerous >amount of cunning. > Well, assume for a moment that you're a Supreme Dark Power: who do you want working for you, or whom do you want more of: fellow evil geniuses who may be unpredictable, second guess you and try to "do their own thing" without comprehending all of your master plan (or worse yet, figuring some of it out without you intending for them to do so); or mindless, obedient idiots who can't improvise when something goes wrong and save a situation by so doing? Food for thought on Thursday, Felinia _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From amani at charter.net Thu Jun 12 16:47:29 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:47:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death Eaters IQ References: Message-ID: <00ca01c33102$4fd105a0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60135 >Melanie: >That brings up an interesting point though, does Voldie only recruit >intelligent people or does he recruit anyone willing to support him. I am >inclined to think that he lets all who want to join up with him do so..but >they may or may not be given any jobs to do. But I do have to wonder about >the Death Eaters IQ given that Wormtail has such a high position in the >eyes of the Dark Lord. > >Taryn: >But is Wormtail really all that stupid? No one seems to have suspected him, >even as they suspected Lupin. He managed to keep his true intentions secret >from his best friends. I'm of the opinion that Wormtail has a dangerous >amount of cunning. Felinia: Well, assume for a moment that you're a Supreme Dark Power: who do you want working for you, or whom do you want more of: fellow evil geniuses who may be unpredictable, second guess you and try to "do their own thing" without comprehending all of your master plan (or worse yet, figuring some of it out without you intending for them to do so); or mindless, obedient idiots who can't improvise when something goes wrong and save a situation by so doing? Taryn: Easy--you want Crouch Jr.'s. Guys who are extremely crafty and cunning, but absolutely devoted to you, to the point where he almost seems partially insane. But, of course, it's hardest to find people like that. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 16:54:14 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 16:54:14 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death Eaters IQ Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60136 > >That brings up an interesting point though, does Voldie only recruit > >intelligent people or does he recruit anyone willing to support him. I >am > >inclined to think that he lets all who want to join up with him do >so..but > >they may or may not be given any jobs to do. But I do have to wonder >about > >the Death Eaters IQ given that Wormtail has such a high position in the > >eyes of the Dark Lord. > > > >Taryn: > >But is Wormtail really all that stupid? No one seems to have suspected >him, > >even as they suspected Lupin. He managed to keep his true intentions >secret > >from his best friends. I'm of the opinion that Wormtail has a dangerous > >amount of cunning. > >Felinia: >Well, assume for a moment that you're a Supreme Dark Power: who do you >want >working for you, or whom do you want more of: fellow evil geniuses who may >be unpredictable, second guess you and try to "do their own thing" without >comprehending all of your master plan (or worse yet, figuring some of it >out >without you intending for them to do so); or mindless, obedient idiots who >can't improvise when something goes wrong and save a situation by so doing? > >Taryn: >Easy--you want Crouch Jr.'s. Guys who are extremely crafty and cunning, but >absolutely devoted to you, to the point where he almost seems partially >insane. But, of course, it's hardest to find people like that. > Felinia again: Naturally. :-) I'm sure he's got discreet ads out in the Witch Weekly and Daily Prophet: "Unique business opportunity..." >:-) Felinia _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 16:54:56 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 16:54:56 -0000 Subject: Snapes assignment & Harry's Lies. In-Reply-To: <20030612053754.55216.qmail@web20508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60137 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Cora wrote: > > > The only problem I see with this theory is Voldemort's > apparent ability to see through lies or deception. At > the end of SS/PS, he was able to tell that Harry was > lying about what he saw in the mirror of Erised. > Plus, in GoF, when Frank tells Voldemort that his wife > will be worried if he does not come home, Voldemort > instinctively knows that he is indeed not married. If > Snape tries to play the double agent, Voldemort may > see through his facade and suspect the truth... > > Cora bboy_mn: Let's not give too much credence to Voldie's ability to detect lies. First, he is a megalomaniac, and see himself as all knowing and all powerful. Second, it's not that hard to tell when a frightened 12 year old boy is lying. They really aren't that good at it. He also seems to know when Wormtail is lying, but I suspect that Wormtail is worse at it than a frightened 12 year old boy. Next, Frank Bryce worked for Riddle's father, it's not unrealistic to think that Riddle/Voldemort would know who Frank is, and have prior knowledge that Frank is not married. Also, let's remember that we don't know who currently owns the Riddle house. All we know is that it is a wealth man who keeps it for 'tax purposes'. Although, no one has ever quite figured out what 'tax purposes' means exactly. Some have speculated that Riddle/Voldemort owns the house. Remember that even though Tom Riddle Sr didn't acknowledge his son, Voldie was still his son and has some legal claim to the Riddle estate. He could have claimed it after the Riddles died. Others think Lucius Malfoy might own it, acting as a front for Voldemort. Personally, I lean more toward Dumbledore. It could even be Sirius, then again, it's owner could have nothing the to with the greater aspects of the story. The point is that we don't have anyway of knowing the Riddle/Voldemort didn't already know who Frank Bryce was. Just a thought. bboy_mn From kiatrier at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 16:10:26 2003 From: kiatrier at yahoo.com (Kia) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 16:10:26 -0000 Subject: Your One Biggest *Hope* for OOP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60138 Maybe I am weird, but my biggest hope for OotP is that Rowling is going to do the absolute unexpected. Something no one has ever thought of before. That in whatever direction she choose to go that it doesn't fit into any acronym that was invented here, that it is not going to be anyone's pet theory. Considering the difficulty of this - or should I say impossibility? - I settle for the "not expected by the large majority of this fandom". There are certain predictions over the future HP canon, which are so commonly excepted as very, very probable and even treated as some kind of pseudo-canon (double agent!Snape, ever so dead Hagrid come to mind) that I just hope with all my heart that Rowling doesn't go this way and surprises us all. Kia From paula.russell at lineone.net Thu Jun 12 16:52:34 2003 From: paula.russell at lineone.net (paulanurse2003) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 16:52:34 -0000 Subject: Never mind Crookshanks. What about Mrs Norris? In-Reply-To: <003001c330fa$aa911d20$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60139 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Taryn Kimel" wrote "probably be banging my head on the desk if there's another Animagus. > > --Taryn Paula: So much for Crookshanks - what about Mrs Norris? There just has to be some history there. A name such as that just has to have some background. Filch and his 'squibness' and strange cat with hinted at telepathic powers. Is this 'dark' or just odd. Any ideas anyone...? paula. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Jun 12 16:54:14 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 16:54:14 -0000 Subject: Animagi, animals and other puzzles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60140 Apologies if these points have been covered before, but I'm a compulsive list-maker! Is it my imagination or has there been a small out break of animagitis recently? Theories on who is/isn't/might be abound; Jungle Book, here we come! Animagi are supposed to be rare. I seem to recall a passage " there's only eight registered with the Ministry" from somewhere. Yet so far we've met four, only one of which is registered ( McGonagall ), with knowledge of a fifth - James Potter. How rare can they be? And why do they have to be registered? Registered, note; not just passing a test as in Apparating. No registration needed to perform Transfiguration charms such as the one that Moody performed on Draco; so what's the difference? According to JKR an Animagus takes an animal form that reflects their personality. If there is a link between the Animagus and Transfiguration charms perhaps Draco turned into the form he would take if he was an Animagus. Hmm... ferret, eh. Small vicious killer, usually attacks helpless victims. Might be an insight into Dracos' true character. Sirius, on the other hand is a big shaggy dog, a traditionally friendly image, that's trusted by a part kneazle. So Sirius is OK by me. So why Animagi? Why not Transfiguration instead? Maybe there's something we haven't yet been told because I don't believe that JKR would carry redundancy this far without good reason. Does a conjured Patronus always take the form of one's Animagus alter ego? James Potters' does but I don't fancy a ghostly Scabbers scaring off Dementors. Is the Patronus yet another alter ego - the 'spiritual' version of the personality? Plenty of parallels in primitive societies - who all agree it must be protected and kept secret. JKR admitted that cats are important but refused to hint why. Was she referring to Crookshanks? As a cat or as a kneazle cross? Kneazles ( and maybe part-kneazles ) have the ability to guide you home to safety. This could be critical in some plot lines I can think of. Other utterances from herself that caught my eye:- Harrys' eye colour is significant. As a colour or because it's identical to Lilys'? A female will be DADA teacher. But in which book? So far this position has been a revolving door with a new incumbent every volume. Said not to trust too much the idea that Voldomort cannot kill Harry now that there has been a blood transfer. Commented that a questioner seemed very confident that Harry will not die. Many heroic sagas end with the death of the hero as the final sacrifice. Refused to confirm that Voldomort will die. One of the big questions - Can he die, or only be defeated? Book 5 will be shorter than book 4! Well, somethings changed; it's now 25% longer. Plot? Characters? Explication? Or the unexpected appeareance of a massive Flint? Whatever it is, it'll be fun - and necessary. "Harry goes to places that have been mentioned, but we never got inside." That word "inside" would imply buildings, structures, enclosed spaces. St. Mungo's, MoM and Azkaban are the only places I can think of that fit the criteria. Harry, Prisoner Cell Block Argh! Now there's a thought. Kneasy who has plenty of questions and not many answers From hollydaze at btinternet.com Thu Jun 12 17:07:26 2003 From: hollydaze at btinternet.com (Hollydaze) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:07:26 +0100 Subject: 125 voices are book 4 only (not all four together) Message-ID: <007f01c33105$1a247420$f8788751@j0dhe> No: HPFGUIDX 60141 Ok, I went through the book checking the list I had from two years ago and found the characters that I had missing and when they say that Jim Dale does 125 voices they are talking about ONLY GoF, not all four books. These are all the voices in book 4, I say voices because not all of them are named characters: 1.. Riddle Maid 2.. Riddle Cook 3.. Woman at bar 4.. Man at Bar 5.. Landlord 6.. Dot's friend 7.. Dot 8.. Peter 9.. Voldemort 10.. Frank Bryce 11.. Dudley 12.. Vernon 13.. Harry 14.. Petunia 15.. Arthur 16.. Ron 17.. Fred 18.. George 19.. Charlie 20.. Molly 21.. Ginny 22.. Percy 23.. Bill 24.. Mr Diggory 25.. Cedric 26.. Announcer 27.. Basil 28.. Mr Roberts 29.. Wizard in plus fours 30.. Kevin's mum 31.. Kevin 32.. Ministry Wizard 1 33.. Seamus 34.. Mrs Finnigan 35.. Ministry Wizard 2 36.. Archie 37.. Ludo Bagman 38.. Crouch Sr. 39.. Saleswizard 40.. Ministry witch 1 41.. Winky 42.. Fudge 43.. Lucius Malfoy 44.. Draco 45.. French Girl 46.. Young Wizard 1 47.. Young Wizard 2 48.. Stan Shunpike 49.. Crouch Jr. 50.. Ministry Witch 2 51.. Person 1 52.. Person 2 53.. Person 3 54.. Ireland Rosette 55.. Neville 56.. Hagrid 57.. Peeves 58.. McGonagall 59.. NHN 60.. Colin Creevey 61.. Dennis Creevey 62.. Sorting Hat 63.. Dumbledore 64.. Fat Lady 65.. Sprout 66.. Hannah Abbot 67.. Lavender Brown 68.. Dean Thomas 69.. Trelawney 70.. Moody 71.. Lee Jordan 72.. Student 1 73.. Student 2 74.. Ernie Macmillan 75.. 6th year 76.. 1st year girl 77.. Madam Maxime 78.. Karkaroff 79.. 6th yr girl 1 80.. 6th yr girl 2 81.. Fleur Delacour 82.. Poliakoff 83.. Angelina Johnsen 84.. Snape 85.. Violet 86.. Katie Bell 87.. Gryffindor 1 88.. Rita Skeeter 89.. Mr Ollivander 90.. Student 3 91.. Student 4 92.. Cho Chang 93.. Pansy Parkinson 94.. Dragon Wizard 95.. Sirius 96.. Student 5 97.. Pomfrey 98.. Dobby 99.. Parvati Patil 100.. Padma Patil 101.. Krum 102.. Roger Davies 103.. Professor Grubbly-Plank 104.. Moaning Myrtle 105.. Filch 106.. Voices of Mersong 107.. Merman 1 108.. Merman 2 109.. House Elf 1 110.. House Elf 2 111.. Juror at Bagman's trial 112.. Woman at trial, probably Mrs Lestrange 113.. Bertha Jorkins 114.. Sphinx 115.. DE 1 116.. Avery 117.. Macnair 118.. Mr Crabbe 119.. Mr Goyle 120.. Lily 121.. James 122.. Person 4 123.. Person 5 124.. Person 6 125.. Mrs Diggory The reason that the 125 can't be all four books is because in total there are at least 221 DIFFERENT voices total (all four together) in fact there are 144 in the first 3 books alone, although I'm not going to list all 221 (or 144 here) unless anyone REALLY wants me to. :) I can't say there are definitely 221 in all four books because I don't know how many voices there are supposed to be in book 1, 2 and 3 so I don't definitely know that I've found all of them so there could very well be even more. HOLLYDAZE!!! Who finds it histerical that we're already discussing book 6 and 8 1/2 days before book 5 arrives [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu Jun 12 17:13:54 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:13:54 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snapes assignment & Harry's Lies. References: Message-ID: <003d01c33106$01380840$87ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 60142 > bboy_mn: > > Let's not give too much credence to Voldie's ability to detect lies. > First, he is a megalomaniac, and see himself as all knowing and all > powerful. Second, it's not that hard to tell when a frightened 12 year > old boy is lying. They really aren't that good at it. He also seems to > know when Wormtail is lying, but I suspect that Wormtail is worse at > it than a frightened 12 year old boy. > I don't know. I think Wormtail is actually quite good at lying. He lied to his three best friends, among others, for an entire year and was never caught. To me, this indicates that Wormtail is quite skilled at lying. I think Voldemort can see through Wormtail because he is even more skilled at the art of lying than Wormtail, he knows Wormtail and how he works, and I think Voldemort is very knowledgeable about people and how they work. Harry, in comparison to these two, is a very poor liar. As you say, he's only 12 and isn't by nature a liar. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 17:19:44 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:19:44 +0000 Subject: What's in Sirius' Vault at Gringott's? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60143 Dog biscuits? :-) Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 17:19:52 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:19:52 -0000 Subject: Lucius: HM or MoM (Minor OOP Spoiler) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60144 In a very good recent thread, people have speculated that Fudge would be such a worthless bungler that he would be kick out of office or perhaps even die, and his position would be taken by none other than Lucius Malfoy. That would certainly open tremendous plot possibilites. But let's look at an alternate possibility. What if Fudge, in an effort to continue to deny Voldemort's return, petitions the school board of governors to have Dumbledore removed claiming that Dumbledore is completely out of control, not to mention he's lost his grip on reality. So who becomes the new headmaster? Good old Lucius Malfoy, who may be help along in this position but the governors fear that if Voldemort is back, they definitely do not want to get on Lucius's bad side, and let's not forget the possible use of the Imperius curse to help thing along. Now that has some seriously good plot potential. Think about Harry's life at school with Lucius as headmaster. Think of the position that puts Dobby in. (*Spoiler*)There is suppose to be a vicious disgrundled house elf in the new story. That could be Dobby and Lucius butting heads.(*End Spoiler*) Lucius could even override the Sorting Hat and decide for himself who goes where. He could refuse to take in anymore Muggle borns. And sweet mother of Merlin, think of the change in the relationship between Draco and Harry. It is possible for both to happen. Early in the story Lucius is appointed Headmaster, then later after Fudge has messed things up completely and all confidence in him is lostt, or perhaps he is dead, Lucius moves into that position. I confident that next to Voldemort; Lucuis, Fudge, and Rita Skeeter are the most dangerous people in the wizard world right now; evil, stupidity, and lies. Oh what a tangle web she weaves... Just a thought. bboy_mn From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu Jun 12 17:23:24 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:23:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death Eaters IQ References: Message-ID: <004f01c33107$5558c940$87ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 60145 > >Melanie: > >That brings up an interesting point though, does Voldie only recruit > >intelligent people or does he recruit anyone willing to support him. I am > >inclined to think that he lets all who want to join up with him do so..but > >they may or may not be given any jobs to do. But I do have to wonder about > >the Death Eaters IQ given that Wormtail has such a high position in the > >eyes of the Dark Lord. > > > >Me: (whoever that is) > >But is Wormtail really all that stupid? No one seems to have suspected him, > >even as they suspected Lupin. He managed to keep his true intentions secret > >from his best friends. I'm of the opinion that Wormtail has a dangerous > >amount of cunning. > > Felinia: > Well, assume for a moment that you're a Supreme Dark Power: who do you want > working for you, or whom do you want more of: fellow evil geniuses who may > be unpredictable, second guess you and try to "do their own thing" without > comprehending all of your master plan (or worse yet, figuring some of it out > without you intending for them to do so); or mindless, obedient idiots who > can't improvise when something goes wrong and save a situation by so doing? In Voldemort's case, I can see how he does use both. No, he doesn't want anyone as intelligent as he is for reasons stated above, but he does need some followers who aren't complete idiots. Lucius Malfoy is one of these. He needs people who are capable of understanding some of his genius, if for no other reason than because his ego requires people who can appreciate his genius. These are also people he can entrust more complex operations to because he knows they are capable of carrying them out without bungling. On the other hand, he also needs some muscle and some people who are just plain good at following orders without questioning or thinking about them. These are mostly your less intelligent people, and where Crabbe and Goyle fit into the picture. These people aren't going to be entrusted with much more than a variation of either the, "Go along with the intelligent leader of an operation and protect him/her," or the, "This person is in the way of my plans. I need you to go and 'take care' of this situation. Eliminate the problem," missions. When it comes to intelligence, Voldemort is an equal opportunity employer. He has jobs to suit all capabilities and abilities. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 17:23:29 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:23:29 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Animagi, animals and other puzzles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60146 >Is it my imagination or has there been a small out break of animagitis >recently? >Theories on who is/isn't/might be abound; Jungle Book, here we come! > >Animagi are supposed to be rare. I seem to recall a passage " there's only >eight >registered with the Ministry" from somewhere. Yet so far we've met four, >only one of >which is registered ( McGonagall ), with knowledge of a fifth - James >Potter. How rare >can they be? Kneasy - I have to agree, and I confess it's one of my rare points of curmudgeonry with JKR. Although maybe I'm taking this in a slighlty different direction than you meant: I wish she hadn't said it was 'rare'. It's a convenient device, and finding, "Oops, just one more unregistered animagus..." makes the whole concept unsound. Having said it, if she later regretted it, I wish she'd come up with another plot device to cover animal transformations - well, the patronus is sort of one. I still think Mrs. Norris was a victim of one of Filch's botched transfiguration spells, and she's stuck in that form. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From amani at charter.net Thu Jun 12 17:24:35 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:24:35 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Animagi, animals and other puzzles References: Message-ID: <00e301c33107$7ed31280$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60147 Kneasy: And why do they have to be registered? Registered, note; not just passing a test as in Apparating. No registration needed to perform Transfiguration charms such as the one that Moody performed on Draco; so what's the difference? Me: Registration is to lessen the possibility of spying, I suppose, when you know what a person is supposed to transform into, and any special markings, for identification purposes. I've got my response to transfiguration below. Kneasy: So why Animagi? Why not Transfiguration instead? Maybe there's something we haven't yet been told because I don't believe that JKR would carry redundancy this far without good reason. Taryn: In Transfiguration, you do not keep your own human mind. As quoted from QTTA: "The witch or wizard who finds him- or herself transfigured into a bat may take to the air, but, having a bat's brain, they are sure to forget where they want to go the moment they take flight." It also seems to me that you'd be in great danger of getting stuck that way, too. Kneasy: A female will be DADA teacher. But in which book? So far this position has been a revolving door with a new incumbent every volume. Taryn: We know for certain that there's a female DADA teacher in Book 5. After 5...who knows? Lizo: Is there anything that you can tell us about book five? Any new characters? JK: Well, we've obviously got a new Defence Against The Dark Arts teacher because Professor Moody wouldn't want the job again having been locked in a trunk for a year! It's a woman this time. http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/uk/newsid_2269000/2269270.stm --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patricia at obscure.org Thu Jun 12 17:32:51 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Regrowing limbs (was: What other curse scar?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60148 On Thu, 12 Jun 2003, finwitch wrote: > And speaking of Moody - any ideas on what kind of benefit his > artificial foot gives him? Or is it just that he's too paranoid to > drink a leg-grower and can't brew one himself? His magical eye, at > least, is a benefit beyond having a new eye... I wouldn't put it past Moody to find some way to make the artificial leg a powerful magical object. However, I'm not sure it's possible to regrow an entire missing limb. The fact that the old Care of Magical Creatures teacher (pre-Hagrid) retired "to spend more time with his remaining limbs" suggests that regrowing a limb is not commonly or easily done. It's always seemed odd to me that the old teacher couldn't just regrow his missing limbs but Harry *could* regrow all the bones in one limb (his arm) overnight with Skele-Gro, but that's the way JKR wrote it. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From mommiedragon at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 16:55:28 2003 From: mommiedragon at yahoo.com (Kathy Nava) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 09:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP some OOP from JKR interview In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030612165528.81907.qmail@web21506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60149 Jesta Hijinx wrote: >There will also be further romance following on from Harry Potter And >The Goblet Of Fire in which he has a date with a quidditch team-mate - > and develops more of an interest in pal Hermione. > [snip] >Now, my question is: who is Harry dating from the quidditch team? >Does this mean that there will be another girl added, or is he dating >Angelina or Katie? Of course, it might mean from a different house, >but then I wouldn't term it team-mate. Hmmm. > Felinia Kathy Why is everyone writing about this leavnig out Alicia? There are three girls on the Gryffindor Quidditch team Alicia Spinnet, Katie Bell and Angelina Johnson. Kathy who can't wait unti June 21 to get her book --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From RhianynTheCat at aol.com Thu Jun 12 17:20:30 2003 From: RhianynTheCat at aol.com (RhianynTheCat at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:20:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Never mind Crookshanks. What about Mrs Norris? Message-ID: <16f.1fe00425.2c1a105e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60150 In a message dated 6/12/2003 10:10:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, paula.russell at lineone.net writes: > So much for Crookshanks - what about Mrs Norris? Rhianyn's tail twitchess slightly as she has a thought: P'raps Mrs. Norris is Arabella Figg :) We don't know if she's around Hogwarts during the holidatys or not. And we never hear from the older students if she's been around prior to SS. She certainly spends a lot of time prowling around looking after Harry. :::Curls fluffy black tail about herself just _so_ and returns to napping by the fire:::: ^ ^ =( * .*)= [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Thu Jun 12 17:47:33 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:47:33 EDT Subject: OoP Spoiler: AOL Jim Dale reading Message-ID: <30.40f45c28.2c1a16b5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60151 << Okay - is anyone surprised about Harry meeting Dementors and having to use magic to save his life during the summer? >> Well, we don't know for sure that that is what actually happened. There are alternate interpretations for a couple of the points brought up in the snippet. Point 1: Rowling set up the "2-strikes and you're out" situation all the way back in CoS with Dobby and the hover charm. All that would have been necessary would have been for Harry to be caught using magic over the summer and he would have needed to justify himself or risk expulsion from Hogwarts. I think this is what has come around to bite him. He dodged the bullet in PoA when he blew up Aunt Marge. Another incident will not be overlooked like that. Point 2: In Fudge's administration -- especially now when he is afraid that Dumbledore might be right -- I would be willing to bet that there are Dementor guards present at *every* trial, hearing, and possibly even staff meeting. Providing a horendous disagantage to anyone who would actually have to be present and give an account of their actions. At this point we can't be sure of there ever having been Dementors at 4 Privit Drive (Lane? Street? Whatever). (Side note: I think that Fudge's timourous stocking the Ministry with Dementors "for protection" is going to backfire on him big time. On everyone in the building, in fact.) It does seem to be strongly implied that Harry has used magic out of school in what could readily be percieved (rightly or otherwise) was a life-threatening situation. The "Dark wizard's" house that the Weasleys know of and Molly brought him to is still a mystery, but it seems fairly unlikely that this is the Riddle House. It is also unlikely that Harry will need to speak Parseltongue to any of the door handles to get into a locked room, but we can hope. We also can provisionally assume that this is another in the series of wretched birthdays for Harry. If it has been a month since he has seen Ron, it would land him within a day or so of July 31. (The third task was on 24 June, and there had been about a week of school remaining after that before the end of fourth year -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Thu Jun 12 17:47:30 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:47:30 EDT Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction Message-ID: <169.1fe1ff1e.2c1a16b2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60152 Wayne guesses: << my prediction...and this is a biggie...is that either Filch or Hermione catch Mrs. Norris and Crookshanks mating during OOP, they will have offspring, >> Sounds like someone's been reading "The Way of the Squib" (included in Volume II of The Squib Chronicles over on Red Hen). In order for some of the offspring to be full Kneezle, then both parents must be cat/Kneezle crosses. I've always suspected that Mrs Norris might be. Her interpretation of "suspicious characters" would be that of "her" human, and not necessarily that of Harry and the series narrator. -JOdel From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 17:28:04 2003 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (Janelle Raemisch) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 10:28:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Watch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030612172804.57708.qmail@web14001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60153 Me: I've been lurking for a long time and this is my first post. I was reading this post about Harry's watch being broken and a thought came to me. What if the portkey(the TWT cup) was set to a specific time, but it just had to match the time on the watch that Harry was wearing when he touched it, since the watch was broken, any time that Harry touched it would have been the correct time... just a thought, I dont have the canon right now to back it up so please correct me if i got something wrong. Janelle --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 17:56:08 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:56:08 -0000 Subject: Lethifolds and Voldemort In-Reply-To: <20030611090553.83066.qmail@web20507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60154 Brittney wrote: This may seem totally off the wall and, unfortunately I do not have my copy of SS to check the description, but after reading Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them it struck me that the description of the lethifold in the book reminded me of what I always envisioned looked like when he was found drinking the unicorn's blood in the Dark Forrest. I, Tom, respond: Well, I'd never heard of a lethifold until you just mentioned it. So, I went on over to the HP Lexicon (at URL http://www.hp-lexicon.org) and looked it up. The Lexicon's entry reads: "This dangerous beast resembles a half-inch thick black cloak which moves along the ground at night, hunting its prey. It attacks sleeping humans, smothers them, and then digests them, all in their bed, leaving no trace at all. The only defense against a Lethifold is a Patronus Charm. Thankfully, this frightening creature is rare, only found in the tropics. (FB)" So, I agree with your assessment that the black cloak in the forest resembles the description of the lethifold as far as appearance. But, I'm not sure that it's possible for the black cloak to actually *be* a lethifold, for two reasons: First, apparently they attack sleeping humans and leave no trace, which is contrary to the situation we have in the forest, where the black-cloaked figure is drinking unicorns' blood and leaving the bodies there. Second, we have the assertion that lethifolds are *only* found in the tropics, and Scotland would seem to be too far removed from the tropics for this to be the case. -Tom, who is intrigued by the possibility of a lethifold in canon, and what it might do in a storyline. From p_prideaux at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 12 17:59:05 2003 From: p_prideaux at yahoo.co.uk (Paul Prideaux) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:59:05 -0000 Subject: Snapes assignment & Harry's Lies. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60155 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Let's not give too much credence to Voldie's ability to > detect lies. [...] Interesting idea. I must say, I'm quite convinced that he can detect lies / read minds. I think Snape can too. I know it's mentioned several times that Harry feels as though Snape can do this, but I reckon he might just be right! Pryd. x From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jun 12 18:29:52 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:29:52 -0000 Subject: Disabilities in HP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60156 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "shanna" wrote: > Hello everyone! > I'm coming out of lurkdom for a moment with a random question I just thought of. I'm curious what would happen if for some reason a disabled person were to attend Hogwarts or another similar magical institution. I realize this is completely hypothetical and not likely to ever be included in canon, but as someone with a visual disability, I have to wonder.<< It is in canon! Mad Eye Moody is has a magical prosthetic eye and a wooden limb. He (or rather, Crouch in his shape) managed just fine at Hogwarts, so I suppose a student could get along too. We also have Remus Lupin, whose werewolf curse is a disability. Then there's Wormtail with his artificial hand, and Harry with his occasionally disabling curse scar. I also got the impression that Ernie Prang, the driver of the Knight Bus, is nearly blind. Pippin From ecprincess78 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 18:34:26 2003 From: ecprincess78 at yahoo.com (Leah Jamison) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:34:26 -0000 Subject: Lucius: HM or MoM (Minor OOP Spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60157 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > In a very good recent thread, people have speculated that Fudge would > be such a worthless bungler that he would be kick out of office or > perhaps even die, and his position would be taken by none other than > Lucius Malfoy. That would certainly open tremendous plot possibilites. > But let's look at an alternate possibility. > > What if Fudge, in an effort to continue to deny Voldemort's return, > petitions the school board of governors to have Dumbledore removed > claiming that Dumbledore is completely out of control, not to mention > he's lost his grip on reality. > > So who becomes the new headmaster? Good old Lucius Malfoy, who may be > help along in this position but the governors fear that if Voldemort > is back, they definitely do not want to get on Lucius's bad side, and > let's not forget the possible use of the Imperius curse to help thing > along. > > Now that has some seriously good plot potential. Think about Harry's > life at school with Lucius as headmaster. Think of the position that > puts Dobby in. (*Spoiler*)There is suppose to be a vicious disgrundled > house elf in the new story. That could be Dobby and Lucius butting > heads.(*End Spoiler*) Lucius could even override the Sorting Hat and > decide for himself who goes where. He could refuse to take in anymore > Muggle borns. And sweet mother of Merlin, think of the change in the > relationship between Draco and Harry. > > It is possible for both to happen. Early in the story Lucius is > appointed Headmaster, then later after Fudge has messed things up > completely and all confidence in him is lostt, or perhaps he is dead, > Lucius moves into that position. > > I confident that next to Voldemort; Lucuis, Fudge, and Rita Skeeter > are the most dangerous people in the wizard world right now; evil, > stupidity, and lies. > > Oh what a tangle web she weaves... > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 17:50:12 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 10:50:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Disabilities in HP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030612175012.83570.qmail@web12203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60158 I don't know if it will ever happen, but I could see it as possible. I have a friend that is 90% blind (she can see black and white at 20/800) and she's on the college Equestrian Team, she's on student counsil and she give University tours. I'm sure in the magic world they have charms to read text, like the computer program JAWS (it reads computer text), the equilvant of seeing eye dogs or they may just heal the person. For the deaf or mute, they probably have other means, similar to the dicto-quill Skeeter used on Potter. Chris --- shanna wrote: I'm curious what would happen if for some > reason a disabled person were > to attend Hogwarts or another similar magical > institution. I realize this > is completely hypothetical and not likely to ever be > included in canon, but > as someone with a visual disability, I have to > wonder. > ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From artsylynda at aol.com Thu Jun 12 19:03:38 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 15:03:38 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups]children of DEs Message-ID: <20.132cd854.2c1a288a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60159 In a message dated 6/12/2003 1:08:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > I think (though would have a hard time > substanciating from the canon) that the births of the > children of the DEs coincides with the DEs downfall of > Voldemort. They had a change of priorities due to > their duty to their children, since even DEs are bound > to the higher magical laws, which bind them to greater > responsibilites. > > Sue > The problem with that is, these kids are all in Harry's class, meaning they're all around 11 (I think they have to be 11 by Halloween to be in that particular year, right? I can't remember where I read that, in a JKR interview at some point, I believe). So the DE's had to get started on those babies about the time the Potters got Harry "underway" or they wouldn't be in the same class. I see no way for Harry's defeating V. at the age of one year to make it possible for DE kids to start popping out of the oven in time to be in the same class with him -- it takes 9 months to make even a DE's baby, and they'd all be a year behind him even if the DE's got started on their families right away. The attack on Godrick's Hollow was on Halloween (as I recall), so Baby Harry was 16 months old that very day. If the DE's all started families that night, the babies would be due the next July (I think I did my math right), thereby putting them in the NEXT year at Hogwart's. Hmm, that means Harry himself was "created" on Halloween or thereabouts -- given JKR's interesting way of thinking, I wouldn't put it past her to have thought of this detail (even if her own birthday, like Harry's, is July 31). So anyway, Crabbe, Goyle, Malfoy, etc., were all started BEFORE Voldemort's defeat. Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pegruppel at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 19:03:32 2003 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (pegruppel) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:03:32 -0000 Subject: Disabilities in HP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60160 Shanna wrote: > > I'm coming out of lurkdom for a moment with a random > question I just thought of. I'm curious what would happen if for > some reason a disabled person were to attend Hogwarts or > another similar magical institution. I realize this is completely > hypothetical and not likely to ever be included in canon, but as > someone with a visual disability, I have to wonder.<< Pippin: > It is in canon! Mad Eye Moody is has a magical prosthetic eye > and a wooden limb. He (or rather, Crouch in his shape) > managed just fine at Hogwarts, so I suppose a student could get > along too. We also have Remus Lupin, whose werewolf curse is > a disability. Then there's Wormtail with his artificial hand, and > Harry with his occasionally disabling curse scar. I also got the > impression that Ernie Prang, the driver of the Knight Bus, is > nearly blind. > Me: I think that Squibs, by the standards of the WW, might be considered disabled. As Pippin wrote, physical disabilities seem to be less of a problem for the WW, since wizards and witches seem to be able to enchant objects to help them out. I don't think that's just any old table leg that Moody's got. Squibs, on the other hand, are outsiders. They can't ever do what all their friends and family do quite as a matter of course. And even then, there's a place for Squibs at Hogwarts--consider Filch. He's grown up knowing he'd never fit in. Still, Hogwarts has a place for him. No, he's not fun to be around, but at the very least Dumbledore wants him to have a place in the magical world. I do *not* consider Neville a Squib, or almost a Squib, or even inept! Like most people on this list, I think he's been injured by a bad memory charm. Peg From ecprincess78 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 19:04:07 2003 From: ecprincess78 at yahoo.com (Leah Jamison) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:04:07 -0000 Subject: Orphans of the LV era Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60161 This is my first _original_ post, so if the format stinks, or this topic has been hashed and rehashed, my apologies... Has anyone ever posted a list of orphans of the LV era (specifically Harry's generation)? By this, I mean those who have been left without parents, or essentially so. Here is a _very_ sketchy list of the ones I can think of without canon: 1. Harry (duh) 2. Neville (essentially) 3. Susan Bones (I think) Help- We learn about the Longbottoms in the Pensieve (GoF), but I can't remember where we learn about the Bones'. It was just in passing, but I know it was in GoF. I think these kids have a bone to pick (no pun intended) with LV, and they are going to be a powerful force for the good. Please add to my list if I've missed any! Thanks all! Leah From amani at charter.net Thu Jun 12 19:35:45 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 15:35:45 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Orphans of the LV era References: Message-ID: <001b01c33119$d1bd66a0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60162 Leah: This is my first _original_ post, so if the format stinks, or this topic has been hashed and rehashed, my apologies... Has anyone ever posted a list of orphans of the LV era (specifically Harry's generation)? By this, I mean those who have been left without parents, or essentially so. Here is a _very_ sketchy list of the ones I can think of without canon: 1. Harry (duh) 2. Neville (essentially) 3. Susan Bones (I think) Me: It was Susan Bones' grandparents who were killed by Voldemort, not her parents. [There is a girl named Susan Bones who was sorted in the first book, and there was a family called the Bones that Voldemort tried to destroy. Is this a coincidence, or will Harry meet her in future books?] Susan Bones's grandparents were killed by Voldemort! http://www.angelfire.com/magic/aberforthsgoat/archive/Oct00_LiveChat_BarnesNoble.htm Then again, we don't actually /know/ the state of her parents. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dorigen at hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 17:44:03 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:44:03 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Regrowing limbs Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60163 >The fact that the old Care of Magical Creatures >teacher (pre-Hagrid) retired "to spend more time with his remaining limbs" >suggests that regrowing a limb is not commonly or easily done. It's >always seemed odd to me that the old teacher couldn't just regrow his >missing limbs but Harry *could* regrow all the bones in one limb (his arm) >overnight with Skele-Gro, but that's the way JKR wrote it. Harry's arm wasn't detached or injured in any way when the bones were removed. Repairing something broken is probably not a problem for magical healers, but re-attaching something that was severed may be. (Madam Pomfrey re-attached someone's nose after it had been accidentally removed by magic, however. Maybe it depends on whether the injury was sustained by magic or by ordinary means such as an animal attack, or maybe it depends on how serious it is -- a nose may be reparable, a missing limb may not.) Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu Jun 12 19:38:48 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:38:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups]children of DEs References: <20.132cd854.2c1a288a@aol.com> Message-ID: <006601c3311a$3f7a0d60$87ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 60164 Sue: > > > I think (though would have a hard time > > substanciating from the canon) that the births of the > > children of the DEs coincides with the DEs downfall of > > Voldemort. They had a change of priorities due to > > their duty to their children, since even DEs are bound > > to the higher magical laws, which bind them to greater > > responsibilites. Lynda: > The problem with that is, these kids are all in Harry's class, meaning > they're all around 11 (I think they have to be 11 by Halloween to be in that > particular year, right? I can't remember where I read that, in a JKR interview at > some point, I believe). So the DE's had to get started on those babies about > the time the Potters got Harry "underway" or they wouldn't be in the same class. > I see no way for Harry's defeating V. at the age of one year to make it > possible for DE kids to start popping out of the oven in time to be in the same > class with him -- it takes 9 months to make even a DE's baby, and they'd all be > a year behind him even if the DE's got started on their families right away. > The attack on Godrick's Hollow was on Halloween (as I recall), so Baby Harry > was 16 months old that very day. If the DE's all started families that night, > the babies would be due the next July (I think I did my math right), thereby > putting them in the NEXT year at Hogwart's. Hmm, that means Harry himself was > "created" on Halloween or thereabouts -- given JKR's interesting way of > thinking, I wouldn't put it past her to have thought of this detail (even if her own > birthday, like Harry's, is July 31). So anyway, Crabbe, Goyle, Malfoy, etc., > were all started BEFORE Voldemort's defeat. I have thought before that Trelawney's first prophecy had to do with Harry. However, maybe it was worded in such a way that would make Voldemort originally think that it had to do with an infant born at a particular time of year, or even just in a particular year. Therefore, maybe he told his DE's to mate and have a kid by a certain date, or just within that year. Maybe V was trying to thwart the prophecy by having the kid be one of the offspring of someone loyal to him. Unfortunately for him, the kid in question happened to be born to the Potters instead. Just a thought on this here. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 19:56:23 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:56:23 -0000 Subject: Lucius: HM or MoM (Minor OOP Spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60165 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > ...So who becomes the new headmaster? Good old Lucius Malfoy, > ...edited... > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn bboy_mn: Another thought that occurred to me after I hit the SEND button. What happens to Snape if Lucius becomes HeadMaster? They are on generally friendly terms, but now that Lucius knows for a fact that Voldmort is back, are they forced to be enemies? Would Snape have to leave the school? Just a thought. bboy_mn From innermurk at catlover.com Thu Jun 12 19:57:44 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:57:44 -0000 Subject: SHIP some OOP from JKR interview In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60166 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" wrote: > I am reposting a portion of a previous post, in order to show that > JKR never said that Harry develops an interest in Hermione: > > The interview, or rather television program, that we are talking > about can be found here (actually a paraphrase by some of the > television viewers, after it had aired on 28 Dec 2001): > > http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrshow.shtml > > The news report that you had linked to, referring to this program can > be found here: > > http://www.ananova.com/entertainment/story/sm_480162.html > > The Ananova news report: > > 'There will also be further romance following on from Harry Potter > And The Goblet Of Fire in which he has a date with a quidditch team- > mate - and develops more of an interest in pal Hermione.' > > And the viewer's report on the television program: > > 'There was no mention of any specific relationships beginning, but > it's clear that one of the sub-stories of the next book is > relationships and lurrrve.' > > Comparing the two reports, it is clear that the viewer's report of > the aired television program shows that it reveals a good deal less > than the pre-airing reports, of which the Ananova report was one, had > claimed. > > Here is a discussion thread about this whole mess from just before to > just after the program first aired: > > http://www.fictionalley.org/fictionalleypark/forums/showthread.php? > threadid=1598 > I don't see that they're from the same source. The article says that the program will air, but doesn't say that it's covering the same material. I think the reporter sat down and talked with JKR and got his material from her. And if he didn't then that program is NOT where he got all his material from. First, he starts off with the ending of the series, something that is not discussed in the BBC program until the very end. Second he says she might write an eighth book for charity (An encyclopedia of Hogwarts) I hope so!!!! I'd LOVE to read it!!! And that *isn't even in* the BBC program. So, I'm not ruling out that Rowling hinted something to him. Not until the 21st anyway. Innermurk - Apologizing for leaving out Alicia earlier From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 20:11:18 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:11:18 -0000 Subject: Orphans of the LV era In-Reply-To: <001b01c33119$d1bd66a0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60167 Leah wrote: Has anyone ever posted a list of orphans of the LV era (specifically Harry's generation)? By this, I mean those who have been left without parents, or essentially so. Here is a _very_ sketchy list of the ones I can think of without canon: 1. Harry (duh) 2. Neville (essentially) 3. Susan Bones (I think) Taryn adds (citing snipped interview link): It was Susan Bones' grandparents who were killed by Voldemort, not her parents. I, Tom, throw into the mix: Well, dunno about the orphans, but we do get a brief list of families destroyed by Voldemort in PS/SS Ch.4: "...an' he'd killed some o' the best witches an' wizards of the age - the McKinnons, the Bones, the Prewetts -" (p.56, US paperback) I don't remember if any kids with these names ('cept for Susan Bones, o' course) have appeared at the school yet. -Tom From j.oramous at verizon.net Thu Jun 12 19:51:09 2003 From: j.oramous at verizon.net (Jenn) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:51:09 -0500 Subject: Regrowing limbs (was: What other curse scar?) In-Reply-To: <1055446729.5297.64008.m13@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60168 > It's >always seemed odd to me that the old >teacher couldn't just regrow his >missing limbs but Harry *could* regrow >all the bones in one limb (his arm) >overnight with Skele-Gro, but that's the >way JKR wrote it. > >---- >Patricia Bullington-McGuire What if limbs can only be regrown with skelegrow when they have magically been removed? Or they can only be regrown when the limb is still there? Harry's whole arm wasn't gone just the bones inside of it, whereas with the old (pre-Hagrid) teacher of CoMC I took it as the limbs were _gone_ completely! As with Mad Eye Moody. Just my 2 knuts! Jenn From mmemalkin at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 20:47:37 2003 From: mmemalkin at yahoo.com (mmemalkin) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:47:37 -0000 Subject: What's in Sirius' Vault at Gringott's? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60169 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jesta Hijinx" wrote: > > Dog biscuits? :-) > > Felinia > > Mme Malkin suggests: Let's get Geraldo in there with a camera crew and find out! :-D ~Diane From ecprincess78 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 20:48:40 2003 From: ecprincess78 at yahoo.com (Leah Jamison) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:48:40 -0000 Subject: Orphans of the LV era In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60170 Taryn adds (citing snipped interview link): It was Susan Bones' grandparents who were killed by Voldemort, not her parents. I, Tom, throw into the mix: Well, dunno about the orphans, but we do get a brief list of > families destroyed by Voldemort in PS/SS Ch.4: Thanks for the corrections, guys!! Just an idea I wanted to float out into the list and see what kind of response I get! From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 12 20:56:15 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:56:15 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: AOL snippet of OOP (NO SPOILERS in this ADMIN) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60171 Greetings from Hexquarters! The snippet of Book Five has now been restored to AOL and Amazon.com. However, there is still a legal injunction banning any publication of Book V before midnight BST June 21 2003. Listmembers are reminded that transcribing or quoting any part of Book V on this board could be legally defined as publication. Therefore, all posts quoting the text of this snippet have been deleted by the Administration Team. Any further posts quoting parts of this snippet will also be deleted. Our legal understanding is that you are allowed to discuss the snippet, providing you can work out how to do so without quoting even one word from it. We are not saying this in order to spoil anyone's fun. We are in danger of being in contempt of court if we do not make every effort to comply with a legal injunction. Individual posters should note that they may also be in contempt if they knowingly publish part of Book V on a public forum. In the eight days remaining, there may be other `leaked' segments appearing. Please DO NOT TRANSCRIBE them and publish them on this list. WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO PUBLISH ANY PART OF BOOK V BEFORE JUNE 21. After June 21 2003, the `reasonable quotation' rules will be in effect. We apologise to members who have received any deleted posts via individual e-mail or via digest. It is not technically possible for us to remove posts from digests or recall posts that have already been e-mailed to listmembers. Listmembers are also reminded that spoiler prefixes are in operation. Any listmember who does not use the OOP: header prefix for a post containing information released about Book V will be headed for a short trip to Mr. Filch's office. Pippy Elf For the Administration Team From RhianynTheCat at aol.com Thu Jun 12 18:19:35 2003 From: RhianynTheCat at aol.com (RhianynTheCat at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:19:35 EDT Subject: OOP Re: [HPforGrownups] Lucius: HM or MoM (Minor OOP Spoiler) Message-ID: <18e.1ba1d235.2c1a1e37@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60172 In a message dated 6/12/2003 10:23:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes: > (*Spoiler*)There is suppose to be a vicious disgrundled > house elf in the new story. That could be Dobby and Lucius butting > heads.(*End Spoiler*) As long as she's awake anyway, Rhianyn picks one item from bboy_mn's erudite post and contemplates: > > Well, we _know_ JKR so therefor we know that Hermione's whole obsession with > SPEW was not just window dressing or an attempt to give Hermione a subplot of > her own.? So my kibbles are riding on the thought that the disgruntled house > elf is a direct result of Hermione mucking about in their affairs.? It could, > of course, be Winky I suppose but that seems too simple for JKR. > > And in apropos to nothing, I'm just certain that chamber pot room is going to > come into play in a major way.? It was just mentioned in too eyecatching a > manner not to be important. > > :::Curls fluffy black tail about herself just _so_ and returns to napping by > the fire:::: >? ?? ^?? ^ >? ==( * .*)= [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Kadoo96801 at aol.com Thu Jun 12 18:53:08 2003 From: Kadoo96801 at aol.com (Kadoo96801 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:53:08 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 2899 Message-ID: <1cd.b96422c.2c1a2614@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60173 In a message dated 6/12/2003 3:22:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Merlin writes: > > > Because James is actually in Remus' body thanks to a switching spell. > Another clue that I forgot to mention was that Lupin burst into the room in a > flash of red sparks, the color of a true Gryffindor(AKA heir of Godric). Is the red sparks surrounding Lupin the only real basis for this theory of James and Lupin switching? I think some other proof backing up this theory would be all of the funny looks and faint moments Lupion has when Harry mentions James...so I don't think we can really conclude they are switched or the same person or something wacky like that...but I don't know. Another possibility is that Lupin and James are brothers or relatives or something...explaining the red sparks for Lupin and the red and gold sparks for Harry (at Ollivanders coming out of his wand). But wait...why are Lupin's sparks just red? Red AND gold signify gryffindor. For all we know, red could be the color of dark wizards (DE marks turn red on their arms, voldemorts eyes are red)....any other thoughts? PoPo (Still refusing to beleive James and Lupin switched bodies...sorry, I just don't buy it) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From RhianynTheCat at aol.com Thu Jun 12 20:20:55 2003 From: RhianynTheCat at aol.com (RhianynTheCat at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 16:20:55 EDT Subject: A random thought on the missing Death Eater Message-ID: <7b.131ac490.2c1a3aa7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60174 Rhianyn sets a tidy black paw on her book to hold her place as she muses: I had always thought in GoF when Voldemort refers to the DE that will probably never return to him that he was referring to Karkaroff. I also considered Snape but have since decided to go with the Snape as DDs "secret agent" in which would require that Voldemort still trusts him. However, as I re-read with ideas from the list swirling about in my head I wonder if he could be referring to Cornelius Fudge? (And if it does, I think ol' Voldie's wrong in ruly him out quite so quickly). :::Curls fluffy black tail about herself just _so_ and returns to napping by the fire:::: ^ ^ =( * .*)= [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From RhianynTheCat at aol.com Thu Jun 12 20:25:39 2003 From: RhianynTheCat at aol.com (RhianynTheCat at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 16:25:39 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Regrowing limbs (was: What other curse scar?) Message-ID: <173.1b9b2eec.2c1a3bc3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60175 In a message dated 6/12/2003 1:16:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time, j.oramous at verizon.net writes: > What if limbs can only be regrown with skelegrow when they have magically > been removed? Or they can only be regrown when the limb is still there? > Harry's whole arm wasn't gone just the bones inside of it, whereas with the > old (pre-Hagrid) teacher of CoMC I took it as the limbs were _gone_ > completely! As with Mad Eye Moody With a catsmile Rhianyn suggests: Maybe it makes a difference if the limb has been digested thru the innards of some beastie :) As to Madam Pomfrey being able to regrow a nose, I suspect it may make a difference in the instance of magic removal of a limb if one can question the remover as to how the spell was performed (or mis-performed as the case may be) in order to reverse the spell. :::Curls fluffy black tail about herself just _so_ and returns to napping by the fire:::: ^ ^ =( * .*)= [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Jun 12 20:14:58 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:14:58 -0000 Subject: Animagi, animals and other puzzles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60176 Kneasy ( me ) wrote Why are Animagi registered? Registered, note, not just pass a test like Apparating. Taryn wrote suggesting that it lessens the chance of spying when they can be identified by markings etc. Me now: Not sure that cracks it. If it were so, invisibility cloaks would be licensed and so would wizards like Dumbledore who can become invisible without such a cloak. It would be more convenient too; after all your animal alter ego could be totally inappropriate. A stag, for example, is not much of a prospect as a secret agent in the MoM offices. A lot would depend on when registration was first required. An old law or more recent? I think I'll stick with the theory that there's more to be revealed about Animagi. But I do concede your points re Transfiguration ( loss of intellect ) and the female DADA teacher (JKR has spoken )- well, until a week on Saturday when all bets are off! The point I made about the size of the book may have a bearing on everyones' theories. It was meant to be smaller than book 4 but is 25% bigger. Does anyone know how many of JKRs' interviews with hints there have been since this prediction was made? I think she made that comment 2 years ago. She's written a lot of words since then and I think - no I'm praying - that we're all going to be stonked! Kneasy ( drooling slightly ) From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Thu Jun 12 21:06:48 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 23:06:48 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP: Re: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction (possible spoiler) References: <20030611235111.53911.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002801c33126$8a648e70$5a0a6750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 60177 > Tyler wrote: > > Um, I'm a little confused as to the legality of this > post. Are we not supposed to discuss what we read in > the now banned excerpt? Or just not supposed to > quote/repeat the text? > > No rule-breaking intended, so > List Elves-If this looks suspicious, delete/edit it! > > Ok, after reading and hearing the 'illegal' clip from > the OoP audio book, my head is spinning with ideas and > I've become way too excited about the upcoming > release. Anyways, here's my prediction: > > The boy lying in the flower bed is Dudley. He's lying > there because he's unconcious after Dementors (sent by > Fudge under pressure from Lucius Malfoy who is > insisting that Harry murdered Cedric Griggory) storm > the Dudley household. Harry casts a Petronus to drive > the dementors away, but ends up facing MOM problems > for using underage magic, leading to the scene in the > banned excerpt. > Me (Izaskun) Well, Tyler, this theory matches mine to the letter. I think the boy lying in the flower bed is not resting, or thinking or just contemplating the wonderful sky above his head, it sounds like the typical description of calm before the storm to me. And I also think that in book 5 will see action pretty much from the begining, no long descripting and plot introducion chapters like in GoF. Cheers, Izaskun > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). > http://calendar.yahoo.com > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From mcnerthney at msn.com Thu Jun 12 20:59:18 2003 From: mcnerthney at msn.com (Kristen Willard) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:59:18 -0700 Subject: Peter knows Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60178 Did Ron bring Scabbers to Harry's house on either of his trips (CS or Gof)? If so, Peter knows where Harry lives. Perhaps the Dementor's were sent by V and not the ministry (sorry, haven't heard the AOL clip). What are the spells preventing V from getting to Harry at the Dursley's house? There was a mention of a special room in OOP which was mentioned in GoF but not developed. I hope it is the room with Chamber Pots Dumbledore discovered one morning when he had an exceptionally full bladder. Kristi Willard Camano Island, WA _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From Kadoo96801 at aol.com Thu Jun 12 19:18:20 2003 From: Kadoo96801 at aol.com (Kadoo96801 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 15:18:20 EDT Subject: Professor Binns Message-ID: <19f.1650ff8f.2c1a2bfc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60179 In a message dated 6/12/2003 1:09:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Kelly Grosskreutz" writes: > Wasn't it in this book we were supposed to find out more about ghosts and > what makes people become them? If so, then I predict we will find out more > about Professor Binns. Mainly, that he was Tom Riddle's AK guinea pig. > Binns falls asleep in front of the staff room fire. Riddle is wandering the > school halls late one night when everyone's in bed. He sneaks into the > staff room for some reason and finds Binns sleeping. He doesn't care much > for Binns because he is boring. He has been itching to try out AK on a > living person, but has been needing the right person. Binns is old, alone, > and completely unknowing. No one will question that he died of natural > causes. He successfully AK's Binns. > > Binns gets up the next morning and continues on, business as usual. At > first he doesn't realize he is dead. The only thing unusual about the > previous evening is a dream he had, where he heard a voice speaking softly > and saw a burst of green light. Binns does not seem the type to dwell on > dreams, so he doesn't mention it to anyone when it comes to the matter of > his death. He is still hanging around because he was murdered, he doesn't > consciously know it, and his murderer is still wreaking havoc. Maybe he > can't have peace until he realizes that he was murdered, he knows who killed > him, and that person is taken care of. My prediction is something about > this will come into play. I have many other predictions, but I wanted to > post something no one else has posted yet, and I've thought this about Binns > for quite awhile. > > Kelly Grosskreutz > http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova Now I have doubt that Binns actually died in the staff room fire! That brings up an interesting point....If he did die in the fire, why isn't his body burned and scarred and whatnot? Nearly Headless Nick died being decappitated, and his head is still mostly chopped off, and the Bloody Baron probably had a bloody death, which would make him bloody...OK, so, does anyone have proof what Binns' body actually looks like now (I dont have time to look...so sorry)? If it's untouched and unmarked, that would indeed mean Avada Kedravra. Interesting possibility. PoPo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From brookeshanks at mugglenet.com Thu Jun 12 21:13:01 2003 From: brookeshanks at mugglenet.com (Brooke) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:13:01 -0000 Subject: Disabilities in HP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60180 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "shanna" wrote: > Hello everyone! > I'm coming out of lurkdom for a moment with a random question I just thought > of. I'm curious what would happen if for some reason a disabled person were > to attend Hogwarts or another similar magical institution. I realize this > is completely hypothetical and not likely to ever be included in canon, but > as someone with a visual disability, I have to wonder. > > Would magic be a help or a hindrance to a disabled person? I can see both > sides to this. The summoning charm, for example, would definitely come in > handy at times! Of course it could be a problem if I were to try dueling, > at least I think so anyway. I'm curious what everyone here thinks. I hope > this question makes sense! Thanks in advance for your time! > Shanna The subject of disabilities makes me wonder how far magic can go...I was thinking (for example) Harry having to wear glasses is not so much a major disability (as say, having to be in a wheelchair, or the like) but it is definitely a hindrance. Is there a chance Harry's eyesight could be fixed by magic? Could Madam Pomfrey grow Moody's leg back so he wouldn't have to wear a wooden one? At what point is magic useless in helping those who have become disabled, disfigured, or hurt? Hermione was able to get her teeth to a normal size as well. Of course, it is completely writer's license, and JKR does not have to "draw the line" anywhere to justify why some ailments cannot be fixed by magic... but I wonder if in her own mind, she has her reasons for allowing certain things in the wizarding world, such as Harry's eyesight, to be fixed. We all know there would be no conflict, struggle, or storyline for that matter if magic could fix all things & make the wizarding world perfect. Otherwise, the characters would have no challenges or obstacles to overcome. But I wonder if JKR deliberately chooses specific things to be "unfixable" by magic to get yet another theme or message across... any one have any thoughts on that? Brooke From rose_in_shadow at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 20:57:33 2003 From: rose_in_shadow at yahoo.com (rose_in_shadow) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:57:33 -0000 Subject: Disabilities in HP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60181 --- "shanna" wrote: > Hello everyone! > I'm coming out of lurkdom for a moment with a random question I just thought > of. I'm curious what would happen if for some reason a disabled person were > to attend Hogwarts or another similar magical institution. I realize this > is completely hypothetical and not likely to ever be included in canon, but > as someone with a visual disability, I have to wonder. Moira (me) writes: I've wondered about this myself. For example, we Muggles have seeing- eye dogs... would wizards have seeing-eye owls? Or what about potions that heal damaged optical nerves? What about mental or learning disabilities? Would Neville be considered dyslexic for a wizard? Incidently, one of my favorite fanfics explores the possiblity of a blind student: http://www.sugarquill.net/read.php?storyid=646&chapno=1 From tigerfan41 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 19:50:04 2003 From: tigerfan41 at yahoo.com (Darrell Harris) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Animagi, animals and other puzzles In-Reply-To: <1055446729.5297.64008.m13@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030612195004.54333.qmail@web10008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60182 Kneasy: --- > Apologies if these points have been covered before, > but I'm a compulsive list-maker! > > Is it my imagination or has there been a small out > break of animagitis recently? > Theories on who is/isn't/might be abound; Jungle > Book, here we come! > > Animagi are supposed to be rare. I seem to recall a > passage " there's only eight > registered with the Ministry" from somewhere. Yet so > far we've met four, only one of > which is registered ( McGonagall ), with knowledge > of a fifth - James Potter. How rare > can they be? > As I recall it's Hermione making that statement of rarity based on something she's read. It's entirely within the realm of reason to assume many who work out the mechanics of the transformation may want to keep it a secret and take their chances on being found out. Rita and the map makers had reasons for keeping it quiet as would I if I had the ability. Having everyone know you can kind of negates the benefits in my opinion. Darrell ===== __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From missygallant2000 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 18:48:09 2003 From: missygallant2000 at yahoo.com (Missy) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:48:09 -0000 Subject: Never mind Crookshanks. What about Mrs Norris? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60183 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Taryn Kimel" wrote "probably > be banging my head on the desk if there's another Animagus. > > > > --Taryn > > Paula: So much for Crookshanks - what about Mrs Norris? There just > has to be some history there. A name such as that just has to have > some background. Filch and his 'squibness' and strange cat with > hinted at telepathic powers. Is this 'dark' or just odd. Any ideas > anyone...? > > paula. I believe that Crookshanks and Mrs. Norris are both familiars. This isn't something that is discussed much in the first four books, but there are hints that magical animals are different. In PoA, when Harry, Ron and Hermione enter the animal shop, there are rats on the counter that are jumping rope with their own tails. This is the first reference to the fact that magical animals are not like the same animals in the muggle world. Shortly after mentioning the rats, the store keeper asks what special things Scabbers does. I took this to mean that certain animals have magical powers, and these animals often choose to team up with witches or wizards who will compliment these powers. When a witch or wizard goes into a magical pet shop, they, of course, buy an animal. But as in our world, often there is something about a particular animal that makes us that that one home over the others in the litter. So, these animals and the witch/wizard, become a team. Ron and Harry thought Crookshanks was an ugly and terrible cat (Ron's line about that thing nearly scalping him.) But Hermione thought he was beautiful. Crookshanks special power, or at least one of them, is obviously detecting animagi. He may have others, and it wouldn't surprise me to find out he does. Mrs. Norris is probably a familiar with telepathic powers. I realize that Filch is a squibb, but for some reason, this does not bother her. She may have been in his family for a while, he may have rescued her from something threatening to her, who knows. But she does seem to be telepathic, and they do seem to have a bond. I believe Mrs. Figg's cats are familiars. In one of the books there is a brief mention of the fact that when Harry is looking at the pictures, the cats all seem to look the same. Since Mrs. Figg, is supposed to pass for a human, she may have made up names for the same cats in order to seem more muggle-like. PoA establishes that the magical animals live longer than their non-magic counterparts. And it would seem very un-muggle for Mrs. Figg to say, "This is my cat Jester, he's been alive for 30 some odd years." The hole in this theory is that is not unnatural for a cat to live over 20 years. And as Harry is only 15-16 years old by this point, it wouldn't be unnatural for her cat to be that age. Harry's biggest question, before finding out he's a wizard, should have been where are all these different cats coming from, since cats live so long anyway. Of course, now he would know it is because Mrs. Figg is probably older than she looks, since witches and wizrds live longer. "Missy" From mcnerthney at msn.com Thu Jun 12 21:27:10 2003 From: mcnerthney at msn.com (Kristen Willard) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:27:10 -0700 Subject: All Jim Dale's voices Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60184 I listen to the audio books while I work. The ones you might have missed include Charlie immitating his mother: "I thought they were all safe!" (GoF) There are a couple of occassions where the characters mimic other characters. Perhaps they are supposed to count toward 184. I know they sound different on the recordings. P.S. If Peter transforms into Wormtail now, will his paw be silver? Kristi _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From mmemalkin at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 21:30:32 2003 From: mmemalkin at yahoo.com (mmemalkin) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:30:32 -0000 Subject: A random thought on the missing Death Eater In-Reply-To: <7b.131ac490.2c1a3aa7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60185 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RhianynTheCat at a... wrote: > Rhianyn sets a tidy black paw on her book to hold her place as she muses: > > I had always thought in GoF when Voldemort refers to the DE that will > probably never return to him that he was referring to Karkaroff. I also considered > Snape but have since decided to go with the Snape as DDs "secret agent" in > which would require that Voldemort still trusts him. However, as I re-read with > ideas from the list swirling about in my head I wonder if he could be > referring to Cornelius Fudge? (And if it does, I think ol' Voldie's wrong in ruly him > out quite so quickly). > > > :::Curls fluffy black tail about herself just _so_ and returns to napping by > the fire:::: > ^ ^ > =( * .*)= > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Voldemort under the turban when Snape was chastising Quirrell about his loyalties? I always figured that Voldemort knows he has switched sides, and was referring to Snape in the graveyard scene in GoF when he says one of his followers has left him and will be killed. If Dumbledore was sending Snape to spy on the DE's, then I guess a slow death by torture could fit the "horrible to write" description... ~Diane Eschewing obfuscation > From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 21:33:26 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:33:26 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: AOL snippet of OOP (NO SPOILERS in this ADMIN) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60186 Pippy Elf wrote, for the Administration team: The snippet of Book Five has now been restored to AOL and Amazon.com. However, there is still a legal injunction banning any publication of Book V before midnight BST June 21 2003. Listmembers are reminded that transcribing or quoting any part of Book V on this board could be legally defined as publication. Therefore, all posts quoting the text of this snippet have been deleted by the Administration Team. Any further posts quoting parts of this snippet will also be deleted. Our legal understanding is that you are allowed to discuss the snippet, providing you can work out how to do so without quoting even one word from it. Tom asks several questions: One, are you referring to the spoiler information with text-citations that appeared in the Scholastic Catalogue? Two, is it allowed to quote from citations that, as in the above example, Scholastic (or Bloomsbury) have provided previously? Three, is it allowed to post the *link* to this new and exciting spoiler on-list? Four, if so, could you post it? :) I do understand if "The HPfGU Administration Team" cannot post it for legal reasons. But, hey, we're all individual members here, too, right guys? Surely there's a distinction between what a member posts and what the 'Admin team' posts, right guys? Right? Guys? Hello? Enough of this! Who's got the goods? Cough 'em up! ;-) -Tom, who at this point is simply an addict craving his fix, and who isn??t worried in the slightest that the spoiler will ruin the story for him. From marie_mouse at hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 21:31:00 2003 From: marie_mouse at hotmail.com (Marie Jadewalker) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:31:00 -0000 Subject: OOP: Professor Binns In-Reply-To: <19f.1650ff8f.2c1a2bfc@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60187 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kadoo96801 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/12/2003 1:09:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >Kelly Grosskreutz" writes: > > > Wasn't it in this book we were supposed to find out more about > > ghosts and what makes people become them? If so, then I predict > > we will find out more about Professor Binns. Mainly, that he was > > Tom Riddle's AK guinea pig. > > Binns falls asleep in front of the staff room fire. Riddle is > > wandering the school halls late one night when everyone's in > > bed. He sneaks into the staff room for some reason and finds > > Binns sleeping. He doesn't care much for Binns because he is > > boring. He has been itching to try out AK on a living person, > > but has been needing the right person. Binns is old, alone, > > and completely unknowing. No one will question that he died of > > natural causes. He successfully AK's Binns. [snip the rest of the Binns theory] > > Kelly Grosskreutz > > Now I have doubt that Binns actually died in the staff room fire! > > That brings up an interesting point....If he did die in the fire, > why isn't his body burned and scarred and whatnot? Nearly Headless > Nick died being decappitated, and his head is still mostly chopped > off, and the Bloody Baron probably had a bloody death, which would > make him bloody...OK, so, does anyone have proof what Binns' body > actually looks like now (I dont have time to look...so > sorry)? If it's untouched and unmarked, that would indeed mean > Avada Kedravra. Interesting possibility. > > PoPo Now me: I think you misunderstood Kelly a bit. Professor Binns was old, and he fell asleep in the staff room. (There was presumably a fire going in the fireplace, but the room didn't catch fire). When he went to teach the next morning, he was a ghost, and so everyone assumes he died of natural causes -- perhaps just old age -- in his sleep. In that case, he wouldn't have any sort of markings, so it's sort of hard to distinguish natural death from AK. That said, I do think Kelly has an intriguing theory. JK has said there's a reason some people become ghosts and others don't, and that the happiest people don't. (Obviously, folks like Myrtle aren't too happy.) But we've never seen anything that suggests Binns is unhappy; he enjoys teaching enough that his death didn't faze him or keep him from continuing. He might have some other secret sadness (or maybe he's gotten over it because he's been a ghost for a long time). Then again, I think Nearly Headless Nick's lack of happiness may be partly due to his decapitation, so I think it's possible that cause of death made Binns into a ghost, too. If he's a "new" enough ghost to have died during the Riddle years, Kelly's suggestion has a lot of merit in my mind. ~Marie From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Thu Jun 12 21:36:56 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 23:36:56 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP Spoiler: AOL Jim Dale reading References: <30.40f45c28.2c1a16b5@aol.com> Message-ID: <00cf01c3312a$c089ce30$5a0a6750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 60188 Jodel wrote: > > We also can provisionally assume that this is another in the series of > wretched birthdays for Harry. If it has been a month since he has seen Ron, it would > land him within a day or so of July 31. (The third task was on 24 June, and > there had been about a week of school remaining after that before the end of > fourth year > Me (izaskun) Well, that makes sense because Hr says that Dumbledore made them swear they wouldn't say a word to Harry. Surprise party??? I like the idea of the house belonging to Snape. HEHEHE. So twisted. Snape hosting a birthday party to someone he so obviously loaths. Wonderful thought. I can even picture him carrying a huge birthday cake with candles and saying "now, harry, make a wish and blow". LOL. CHeers, Izaskun From brookeshanks at mugglenet.com Thu Jun 12 21:29:48 2003 From: brookeshanks at mugglenet.com (Brooke) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:29:48 -0000 Subject: OOP: OoTP clip - driving me crazy! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60189 Hey HP fans... I should NOT have listened to that "illegal?" OoTP clip. Now my head is spinning with predictions! Here's what I am thinking... please reply with your own - I love to hear what others are thinking! -I think the Ministry hearing that Hermione is referring to is a hearing for Sirius. I think he may have been seen/caught and the dementors tried to perform the kiss on Sirius, but Harry used all means to rescue him, which may have involved a more dangerous or even illegal spell than the patronus charm -the room Harry goes into has twin beds in it. JKR did not put that description in there for nothing. i think someone has or had a sibling that we don't know about yet! could those beds have belonged to Lily and Petunia? Or could this be the Riddle House - did Voldemort have a sibling (or half sibling) in his youth that we are as yet unaware of! (**HP sleuths out there that have read galadriel waters' guide - could Remus have had a brother (James?) remember the story of Remus & Romulus?) I am SO intrigued by these twin beds! -the doorknob is shaped like a serpent's head. this house is clearly tied to Voldemort or Slytherin, but i am still trying to figure out how! I could be way off base on all of these, but then again, all of us are just speculating... only JKR is the authority! For those of you who read or hear the clip, what are you thinking! I'm going to need some of Ogden's Old Firewhiskey to get through the next eight days! Brooke - From MadameSSnape at aol.com Thu Jun 12 21:40:11 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:40:11 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's Names Message-ID: <40.30650121.2c1a4d3b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60190 In a message dated 6/12/2003 10:07:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com writes: > We all noticed that Voldemort is called different things in the > books, from Lord Voldemort, to only Voldemort, to You-Know-Who, to > He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, to the Dark Lord. > I looked through the books and tried to determine if the name you > use for Voldemort has any parallels with your opinions about him or > how you feel about him. What's interesting in this context is that, so far as I can recall, we have not yet seen Snape refer to him in any way or by any name at all. If, as you postulate, the name one uses to refer to Voldie is a reflection of your opinionof/belief about him, Snape's mode of reference should be quite telling. My guess -- Voldemort. Sherrie (who is sulking because she won't get HER book until Monday night - possibly not til AFTER rehearsal) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Calimora at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 21:33:48 2003 From: Calimora at yahoo.com (Renee Daniels) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:33:48 -0000 Subject: Moody,Hagrid, Sinistra, Perkins, and whatnot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60191 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kadoo96801 at a... wrote: >> ----Pertaining to GoF...Someone posted very recently about keeping the real > Moody alive, because the Polyjuice Potion would not have worked for Barty > Crouch Jr....but this got me thinking and the question i have is > > Why couldn't the real Moody fight the Imperius Curse? > > "I packed up Moody's clothes and Dark detectors, put them in the trunk with > Moody, and > set off for Hogwarts. I kept him alive, under the Imperius Curse." > -Barty Crouch Jr. (U.S. edition, pg. 689) > > In other instances where we hear about the Imperius curse, it seems that it > is not that incredibly difficult to fight off for a powerful wizard. Isn't > Moody a powerful wizard? > > Obviously, we know Harry as a youngin' learned to fight the curse after three > or four tries, and Barty Crouch Jr. was able to fight off the curse. It > seems to me that Mad-eye Moody, being the incredible Auror that he is, should have > been able to fight off one of the three Unforgivable Curses the DEs used so > often. I just think it's odd that he couldn't escape the very thing he wanted > to fight, as well as not being able to get out of his own magical trunk. I > don't really know if it's significant or not, but possibly Alastor Moody is not > really as powerful as we think he is. > It might not be that Moody is so weak, but that Harry is that strong when it comes to force of will. Also remember that Crouch Jr. was under the Imperious Curse for nearly nine years. (Longbottom incident was about 3 years after LV's mishap, and according to Sirius, he spent about a year in Azkaban befor his parents pulled the switch.) With that much time he should be able to break free. Actually, i'm wondering if the Imperious Curse needs renewing or if it generaly lasts for a good long time once it sticks. Harry fights it off when it hits, Crouch Sr. fights it off in a couple months. But Couch Jr. speaks of breif moments of near freedom cumulating in his theft of Harrys wand. Even knowing the curse had broken Crouch Sr. is unable to regain control of his son, though I have to believe that he tried. Maybe its possible to build up an immunity to the curse... ~Calimora (Who also thinks Sinistra is probably sinister, and that not enough attention is being payed to possible future DEs in Ravenclaw. Afterall, knowledge is power.) From rayheuer3 at aol.com Thu Jun 12 21:46:53 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:46:53 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP some OOP from JKR interview Message-ID: <49.2f8273e0.2c1a4ecd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60192 mommiedragon at yahoo.com writes: > Why is everyone writing about this leavnig out Alicia? There are three > girls on the Gryffindor Quidditch team Alicia Spinnet, Katie Bell and Angelina > Johnson. My question is: Why are people mentioning any of them? Alicia, Katie, and Angelina were the chasers when Harry joined the team as a first-year. Chances are good that all of them have graduated. Even if they are all seventh-years like Gred and Forge, I doubt they'd be looking for any kind of romantic attachment to someone they'll be leaving in June. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Calimora at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 21:44:40 2003 From: Calimora at yahoo.com (Renee Daniels) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:44:40 -0000 Subject: Animagi, animals and other puzzles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60193 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > Kneasy ( me ) wrote > > Why are Animagi registered? Registered, note, not just pass a test like Apparating. > > Taryn wrote suggesting that it lessens the chance of spying when they can be > identified by markings etc. > > Me now: > Not sure that cracks it. If it were so, invisibility cloaks would be licensed and so would > wizards like Dumbledore who can become invisible without such a cloak. It would be > more convenient too; after all your animal alter ego could be totally inappropriate. A > stag, for example, is not much of a prospect as a secret agent in the MoM offices. A > lot would depend on when registration was first required. An old law or more recent? > > I think I'll stick with the theory that there's more to be revealed about Animagi. Me: I think that one of the reasons Animagi have to be registered is that it's entirely internal magic. You dont need a wand, word, or physical artifact, you just do it, and +pop+ you're a dog. Its a security nightmare, expecicialy since i'm pretty sure its undetectable unless you happen to see the wizard in question shift. There's no way in heck Sirius could have gotten an invis cloak or a wand into Azkaban, but he could always turn himself into a dog, and since nobody knew about it, nobody was watching for it. ~Calimora (Wondering why *glasses* are often physical markers on animagi even when they're not actually part of the witch.) From dehavensangel at hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 21:58:12 2003 From: dehavensangel at hotmail.com (shinesse) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:58:12 -0000 Subject: OOP: OoTP clip - driving me crazy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60194 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brooke" wrote: > Hey HP fans... I should NOT have listened to that "illegal?" OoTP > clip. Now my head is spinning with predictions! Here's what I am > thinking... please reply with your own - I love to hear what others > are thinking! > > -I think the Ministry hearing that Hermione is referring to is a > hearing for Sirius. I think he may have been seen/caught and the > dementors tried to perform the kiss on Sirius, but Harry used all > means to rescue him, which may have involved a more dangerous or even > illegal spell than the patronus charm > > -the room Harry goes into has twin beds in it. JKR did not put that > description in there for nothing. i think someone has or had a > sibling that we don't know about yet! could those beds have belonged > to Lily and Petunia? Or could this be the Riddle House - did > Voldemort have a sibling (or half sibling) in his youth that we are > as yet unaware of! (**HP sleuths out there that have read galadriel > waters' guide - could Remus have had a brother (James?) remember the > story of Remus & Romulus?) I am SO intrigued by these twin beds! > > -the doorknob is shaped like a serpent's head. this house is clearly > tied to Voldemort or Slytherin, but i am still trying to figure out > how! > > I could be way off base on all of these, but then again, all of us > are just speculating... only JKR is the authority! For those of you > who read or hear the clip, what are you thinking! I'm going to need > some of Ogden's Old Firewhiskey to get through the next eight days! > > Brooke > > - Now me: When I read the clip for some reason I just thought it was a hearing for Harry. My theory is Fudge convinced the ministry that Harry AKed Cedric all by himself. It would kind of fit after how he (Fudge) reacted at the end of GoF. Then Harry was about to get the kiss when he did the patronus charm to save himself but it wasn't strong enough. Then just as Harry is about to bite the dust the old crowd comes to save Harry and they go into hiding. Though my theory has lots of holes in it and is probably *way* of base its the theory I got and I'm sticking to it. ~Shinesse~ who wishes she hadn't been tempted and read the clip and is now unable to sleep with anticipation but now can stay up and re-read all for books without getting sleepy. 8 days 6 hours 1 minute From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu Jun 12 22:15:18 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:15:18 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's Names References: <40.30650121.2c1a4d3b@aol.com> Message-ID: <007e01c33130$1c245440$87ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 60195 > In a message dated 6/12/2003 10:07:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com writes: > > > > We all noticed that Voldemort is called different things in the > > books, from Lord Voldemort, to only Voldemort, to You-Know-Who, to > > He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, to the Dark Lord. > > I looked through the books and tried to determine if the name you > > use for Voldemort has any parallels with your opinions about him or > > how you feel about him. > > What's interesting in this context is that, so far as I can recall, we have > not yet seen Snape refer to him in any way or by any name at all. If, as you > postulate, the name one uses to refer to Voldie is a reflection of your > opinionof/belief about him, Snape's mode of reference should be quite telling. My > guess -- Voldemort. > > Sherrie It's telling in that it shows he once worked for Voldemort. In his mind, he still thinks of him as "the Dark Lord" because that's how he has always thought of him. To take a real-life example, I have a cousin named Lisa. Years ago, she moved away, then decided she wanted to be called Lexa instead. As far as I know, anyone who lives by her, all her friends, call her Lexa. Yet to my family, she will always be Lisa. We call her Lisa, we think of her as Lisa. I see this to be pretty much the same thing for Snape. He thought of Voldemort as "the Dark Lord" for so long. It's hard to make yourself change the way you think of a person. And before someone decides to turn that into an argument for, "Well, in that case, then Snape might even still be working for Voldemort because he hasn't changed how he thinks about him," that's not what I mean. Returning to my Lisa/Lexa example, we can see how she has changed and how she isn't exactly like she was when she moved away. In other words, we don't still see her as being exactly like she was when she used to live by us. We see her as being closer to the person she is now, but we still think of her under the name with which we are most familiar. Therefore, Snape can now see Voldemort as being closer to the way we see him (nasty, evil, etc), but he still thinks of him with the name with which he is most familiar: the Dark Lord. Kelly Grosskreutz, who wonders if Snape would say the name Voldemort without flinching http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From rayheuer3 at aol.com Thu Jun 12 22:15:07 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:15:07 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lethifolds and Voldemort Message-ID: <1ec.ac9f083.2c1a556b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60196 thomasmwall at yahoo.com writes: > So, I agree with your assessment that the black cloak in the forest > resembles the description of the lethifold as far as appearance. Resembles, perhaps, but not a lethifold. Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone (US mass market edition) Chapter 15 p. 519: "Then, out of the shadows, a hooded figure came crawling across the ground like some stalking beast. Harry, Malfoy, and Fang stood transfixed. The cloaked figure reached the unicorn, lowered its head over the wound in the animal's side, and began to drink its blood. {Malfoy shouts and he and Fang run] The hooded figure raised its head and looked right at Harry -- unicorn blood was dribbling down its front." Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them (US Hardcover edition) p. 25 "It resembles a black cloak perhaps half an inch thick (thicker if it has recently killed and digested a victim), which glides along the ground at night." {Then, as part of Flavius Belby's account:] "It resembled nothing so much as a rippling black cape." Neither Newt Scamander not Falvius Belby use the word "figure," and in fact I get the impression that the Lethifold is flat and roughly rectangular. The PS/SS account clearly implies a hooded *person* crawling on all fours. IMHO, the descriptions are sufficiently distinct to say that the figure Harry encounted in the forest was definitely not a Lethifold, even ignoring the fact that Hogwarts is not in a "tropical climate". -- Ray "We could have all been killed. Or worse -- expelled!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu Jun 12 22:19:21 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:19:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Professor Binns References: Message-ID: <008301c33130$b05a6050$87ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 60197 >> PoPo responded: > > > Now I have doubt that Binns actually died in the staff room fire! > Now Marie: > > I think you misunderstood Kelly a bit. Professor Binns was old, and > he fell asleep in the staff room. (There was presumably a fire going > in the fireplace, but the room didn't catch fire). When he went to > teach the next morning, he was a ghost, and so everyone assumes he > died of natural causes -- perhaps just old age -- in his sleep. In > that case, he wouldn't have any sort of markings, so it's sort of > hard to distinguish natural death from AK. > Kelly again: Yes, I meant he fell asleep in FRONT of the fire, not that he burned to death. My theory is that a young Tom Riddle tested out AK on an old and sleeping Professor Binns. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From elfundeb at comcast.net Thu Jun 12 22:38:59 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb2) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 22:38:59 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Nimbus Fundraiser - 2d Update Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60198 Hi all -- We, the HPFGU Admin Team, are excited to update you on the progress of our fundraising since we last repeated the fundraising appeal message. Thanks in large part to a *very* generous donation from an individual (who wishes to remain anonymous) we have now raised a total of $1500. This will allow HPFGU to sponsor a small event or item, plus some programming. We've reached the last moments of the fundraising drive -- it ends Sunday, June 15 -- but if we could raise an additional $500, we could increase our presence at Nimbus. You can find details on how to make your donation below. No sponsorship would have been possible without your generous support, and once again we thank all who have donated. *********** Over the last four years, HP4GU has been the best online source for in-depth, mature discussion of all things Potter. The list has burgeoned to 7,000 members, more than twelve sister and regional lists, and the finest collection of Fantastic Posts essays about HP that one can locate on the web. Regional meetings are no longer so regional. In New York City, Chicago, London, Germany and all over the world in fact, we have met, sometimes in handfuls, sometimes in large numbers. And now, this summer, Harry Potter fans take the next step. More than 400 fans will converge on Orlando, Florida, to create the single largest gathering yet, at the *first ever* symposium centered solely on Harry Potter. But you know all this - or you do if you've been around lately. What you might not know is that Nimbus - 2003 needs HP4GU's help. And HP4GU needs your help. This vitally important first year's symposium - and therefore future symposia - depends on your support. Many people have said things like, "Well, I can't afford Nimbus this year, so I'll wait for next year." We certainly understand if you can't attend this year. But, if you can't go this time, there's an easy way you can help ensure that there is a next time. When the Nimbus - 2003 team formed in June of 2002, they envisioned an event that would set the tone. They saw the groundwork for future events, perhaps even eventually large enough to rent our own castle in Scotland for a long week-end. If event after event can prove our sincerity and our integrity, then perhaps we will win the respect of WB, JKR's agents, and even JKR herself. We could position this chain of symposia to become the official convention for adults, and possibly even become the preferred symposium for pursuit of the books. But without fan support, none of that can happen. Corporate sponsorship, which the event's organizers believed would be a natural source of funding, has not materialized as anticipated. Even corporations with significant ties to HP merchandise have been uninterested. The Nimbus - 2003 team attributes this to changing relationships of licensees to WB, the struggle of an unhistoried, untested event, and of course the general economy and world situation. Despite their hope that they would be able to supplement registrations with corporate contributions and lift the burden from the fans, the team finds themselves in need of grassroots assistance. Since Nimbus is the event that HP4GU inspired, they have turned to us, as well as the corners of the fandom, for that help. That is why, in addition to lending its reputation and support to Nimbus - 2003, we at HP4GU would like to make that support financial and be an official Nimbus "Symposium Sponsor." Nimbus offers Symposium Sponsorhip at the level of $15,000 (USD). That sounds like a lot. But remember how we said that the list boasts over 7,000 members? That means that if only half of you are able to donate $5 apiece, HP4GU can realize its goal. If you can give more, please give more, because we know there are those among you who cannot give any, much as you might like to. This sponsorship would pay for: ** Internet cafe, so that attendees and presenters can connect with HP fans around the world who are unable to attend Nimbus - 2003. Cost includes computer rental and internet access costs. [$5,000] ** Coverage of honoraria, hotel, and airfare for the Special Guests, including: Judith Krug, Connie Neal, John Granger, Philip Nel, and Roger Highfield [$3,500] ** Coverage of the Judith Krug Keynote Luncheon (Judith Krug is the Director of the Office of Intellectual Freedom for the American Library Association and will speak on the subject of censorship and book banning, with reference to Harry Potter in particular) [$3,000] ** The Farewell Breakfast on Sunday [$2,500] ** Welcoming Feast and Meet-and-Greet on Thursday night [$1,000] Moreover, for those of you who are U.S. taxpayers, your donation to the HP4GU Nimbus - 2003 sponsorship may be tax-deductible. HP Education Fanon, Inc., the company created to oversee these periodic recurring symposia, has been granted tax-exempt 501(c)(3) status as an educational organization. That means your contribution carries the same advantages to you as a donation to your local charity of choice. We hope you will be part of the only event to grow out of the excellent, deep, shocking, and hilarious conversations you've enjoyed online. Be part of the vision shared by list member, elf, geist, and moderator alike. Even if you can't attend - even if you will - you have a chance to help make Harry Potter history. With your help, we can continue to prove that HP4GU is one of the best HP communities around - on the Web, or in person. With your help, that reputation will only be heightened, through the contact with and exchange between fans and academics and professionals who are equally enamoured of the books and all they represent. Plus, you'll be helping to create an amazing reality which for some will reinforce - or *create* - longstanding friendships and new communities. To make a donation, simply send funds via paypal to: hpfgu-donate at hp2003.org Or, if you prefer, you may send your donation (whether in US funds or other currency) to: Harry Potter Symposium - 2003 PO Box 18769 Rochester, NY 14618-0769 We hope that whether you can join us or not, you will consider making a contribution to show your support - not just for this year's event, but to ensure the future of any other similar conferences brought to you on behalf of *your* email list: HPforGrownups. Yours in anticipation of Nimbus - 2003, The HP4GU Administration Team P.S. Don't forget, only $5 from you will do the trick! Follow this link (http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/nimbus-2003) to contribute to a Nimbus - 2003 Symposium Sponsorship today! From yellows at aol.com Thu Jun 12 22:42:24 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:42:24 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups]children of DEs Message-ID: <2C290436.4ACEB8E8.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60199 In a message dated 6/12/2003 2:03:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, Lynda writes: > If the DE's all started families that night, > the babies would be due the next July (I think I did my math right), thereby > putting them in the NEXT year at Hogwart's. Hmm, that means Harry himself was > "created" on Halloween or thereabouts -- given JKR's interesting way of > thinking, I wouldn't put it past her to have thought of this detail (even if her own > birthday, like Harry's, is July 31). So anyway, Crabbe, > Goyle, Malfoy, etc., > were all started BEFORE Voldemort's defeat. Still, I think it could be possible that the Death Eaters having children all around the same time could have lessened Voldemort's power little by little. Perhaps that's part of the reason Voldemort himself needed to go for the Potters. He could have sent a Death Eater to do his dirty work, but maybe they were all busy with their children, who were all about a year old at the time. I can definitely see the Death Eaters' attention being eaten away slowly by the Death Eater Baby Boom. :) Of course, we don't know for certain that those people in the graveyard scene of GoF weren't Uncle or Aunt Crabbe and Goyle. Brief Chronicles From rayheuer3 at aol.com Thu Jun 12 22:47:54 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:47:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's Names Message-ID: <1e.133ff5c6.2c1a5d1a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60200 MadameSSnape at aol.com writes: > What's interesting in this context is that, so far as I can recall, we have > > not yet seen Snape refer to him in any way or by any name at all. If, as > you > postulate, the name one uses to refer to Voldie is a reflection of your > opinionof/belief about him, Snape's mode of reference should be quite > telling. My > guess -- Voldemort. > > Sherrie > (who is sulking because she won't get HER book until Monday night - possibly > > not til AFTER rehearsal) It's a good point, but my opinion is that Snape refers to Voldemort simply as "Him." And I have no doubt that Severus can pronounce the capital letter. -- Ray (who is sulking because, even though we should get OotP on Saturday, wifey has first dibs on it) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 12 22:52:49 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 22:52:49 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: AOL snippet of OOP (NO SPOILERS in this ADMIN) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60201 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: > Pippy Elf wrote, for the Administration team: > > The snippet of Book Five has now been restored to AOL and > Amazon.com. > > However, there is still a legal injunction banning any publication > of Book V before midnight BST June 21 2003. > > Listmembers are reminded that transcribing or quoting any part of > Book V on this board could be legally defined as publication. > Therefore, all posts quoting the text of this snippet have been > deleted by the Administration Team. Any further posts quoting > parts of this snippet will also be deleted. > > Our legal understanding is that you are allowed to discuss the > snippet, providing you can work out how to do so without quoting > even one word from it. > > > Tom asks several questions: > > One, are you referring to the spoiler information with text- > citations that appeared in the Scholastic Catalogue? > > Two, is it allowed to quote from citations that, as in the above > example, Scholastic (or Bloomsbury) have provided previously? > And Pippy Elf replies: Frankly, the situation is horribly confusing. As we understand it, we can only quote any part of Book V *with permission*. The publicly released excerpt of two paragraphs *was* released publicly, and thus permission to re-quote is assumed. The AOL/Amazon clip is different. Firstly, they allegedly didn't get permission in advance, landing everyone who re-quoted it in (potentially) deep doo-doo. Secondly, while they do now have permission to use the clip, no permission to *transcribe* it appears to have been granted. Just to play the audio clip. So we're in this weird situation - it seems to be fine to discuss it; but we can't *quote* it. Because that's transcribing it. In writing. Which we don't have permission for. So the Scholastic excerpt is fine (no injunction against quoting their publicity material). The released paragraphs are fine. Listening to the audio clip on the Amazon.com home page is fine. Transcribing or quoting the audio clip is NOT fine. Transcribing or quoting any material leaked without permission in the next nine days is NOT fine. On the bright side, in 8 days, 1 hour, we'll be able to read the entire book. Whee! Pippy Elf From yellows at aol.com Thu Jun 12 22:53:54 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:53:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's Names Message-ID: <196B8D1B.603CC069.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60202 In a message dated 6/12/2003 9:04:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, Sabrina writes: > On the other hand there is Trelawney who uses Dark Lord mainly in > her vision in PoA but afterwards also uses He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. > And when we look at the list of people who say Dark Lord, I think > Trelawney is going to turn out to be a supporter of > Voldemort. That's a really interesting post. Thanks for sharing it. :) I think you have a very good point. And I wonder about Trelawney all the time. She's just so shady. :) My opinion of her is that she may have been a pawn of Voldemort's. I think she must really have some psychic ability, because of her seemingly genuine experience toward the end of PoA (when she referred to Voldemort as "the Dark Lord."). But most of the time, she's nothing better than a quack claiming to have a sixth sense. Perhaps Voldemort once channeled her psychic ability for his own benefit, leaving her with an unexplainable connection to him, but also leaving her without an ability to command her psychic power of her own free will ever again. If he used Trelawney for divination of his own during his reign, maybe she was very accurate then and very informed about the subject. But after Voldemort was done with her, she was left without charge of her ability, except for little random spurts of psychic energy that can only be related to Voldemort himself. That would explain why she usually uses the "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named," that the most fearful use, when she's herself, and why she used "the Dark Lord," that the Voldemort followers use, when she was having a true psychic moment. :) Just my little idea. Did it make any sense? :) Brief Chronicles From Calimora at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 22:27:18 2003 From: Calimora at yahoo.com (Renee Daniels) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 22:27:18 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Names In-Reply-To: <007e01c33130$1c245440$87ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60203 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" wrote: > Kelly Grosskreutz, who wonders if Snape would say the name Voldemort without > flinching Definately. Even more interesting IMO is what Snape calls Voldemort in public compared to what he says in private. Probably the Dark Lord and Lord Voldemort where slytherins can hear, and Voldemort in private and trusted company. Never You-Know-Who or He-Who-Must-etc. ~Calimora (Who wonders if Snape knows the name Tom Riddle.) From marie_mouse at hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 22:28:33 2003 From: marie_mouse at hotmail.com (Marie Jadewalker) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 22:28:33 -0000 Subject: Lethifolds and Voldemort In-Reply-To: <1ec.ac9f083.2c1a556b@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60204 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > thomasmwall at y... writes: > Neither Newt Scamander not Falvius Belby use the word "figure," > and in fact I get the impression that the Lethifold is flat and > roughly rectangular. The PS/SS account clearly implies a hooded > *person* crawling on all fours. > > IMHO, the descriptions are sufficiently distinct to say that > the figure Harry encounted in the forest was definitely not a > Lethifold, even ignoring the fact that Hogwarts is not in > a "tropical climate". I'm in a computer lab and don't have my books with me, but don't we already *know* it wasn't a Lethifold? I thought I remembered Voldemort saying Quirrell had been the one to drink the unicorn blood for him. (You know, in the big Bond villian-esque explanation scene at the end?) Am I completely loosing it? > -- Ray > > "We could have all been killed. Or worse -- expelled!" I adore that quote! ~Marie > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Calimora at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 21:56:00 2003 From: Calimora at yahoo.com (Renee Daniels) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:56:00 -0000 Subject: Regrowing limbs (was: What other curse scar?) In-Reply-To: <173.1b9b2eec.2c1a3bc3@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60205 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RhianynTheCat at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/12/2003 1:16:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > j.oramous at v... writes: > > > What if limbs can only be regrown with skelegrow when they have magically > > been removed? Or they can only be regrown when the limb is still there? > > Harry's whole arm wasn't gone just the bones inside of it, whereas with the > > old (pre-Hagrid) teacher of CoMC I took it as the limbs were _gone_ > > completely! As with Mad Eye Moody > > With a catsmile Rhianyn suggests: > > Maybe it makes a difference if the limb has been digested thru the innards of > some beastie :) > > As to Madam Pomfrey being able to regrow a nose, I suspect it may make a > difference in the instance of magic removal of a limb if one can question the > remover as to how the spell was performed (or mis-performed as the case may be) in > order to reverse the spell. > > :::Curls fluffy black tail about herself just _so_ and returns to napping by > the fire:::: > ^ ^ > =( * .*)= > My thought on the matter was that repair is simply easier than reattachment. Madam Pomfrey mamages to re-attach Eloise Midgen's nose 'in the end,' but according to Ron, it went on off-center. To me this implys that re-attachment was a difficult and rather hit or miss process (even when it hasnt been partialy digested), where as Harry's injuries were repaired with a quick shot of something vile tasting and a troubled nights sleep. Madam could have asked both Eloise and Harry what spell was used, yet Harrys misadventure was still easier to remedy. ~Calimora (Who wishes her biking injuries could be fixed as easily.) From katie at n0w.co.uk Thu Jun 12 21:55:58 2003 From: katie at n0w.co.uk (katien0w) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:55:58 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Names In-Reply-To: <40.30650121.2c1a4d3b@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60206 katien0w (me): I'm a newbie here and this is is my first post, so I hope it's valid In chapter thirty-six: The Parting of the Ways, (Page 616 in UK paperback) Snape refers to LV as "the Dark Lord". "Every Death Eater had the sign burnt into him by the Dark Lord." I wonder if this is significant to where his real loyalties lie. katien0w From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 23:19:53 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 23:19:53 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's in Sirius' Vault at Gringott's? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60207 >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jesta Hijinx" > wrote: > > > > Dog biscuits? :-) > > > > Felinia > > > > Mme Malkin suggests: > >Let's get Geraldo in there with a camera crew and find out! :-D > >~Diane > Diane: Well, Geraldo may not be able to access it, but...you're just given me the most vivid image of Rita Skeeter trying to get in there! Isn't it interesting that, while the WW has moving photos, it doesn't seem to have anything like movies or TV that we've seen? Back to Sirius' vault: sounds like he has a tidy pile tucked away in there as well if he can afford to send Harry that Firebolt. I'll grant you, for a time he also is living on rats and garbage snackies, but that has more to do with the need to keep a low profile in a specific location. I'll bet that wherever he was when he was abroad and kept sending back brightly colored non-owls with messages to Harry (and if Hedwig attracted attention, *that* didn't???), he was luxuriating somewhere on a beach with low-key but plush accommodations. We had the big Gringotts' discussion before, but for new people: I maintain that Gringotts' and the goblins run the bank very much like Switzerland - numbered bank accounts or the equivalent, and nobody's too much of a baddie not to have their money kept there. Voldemort may well have an account; I'll bet some of the better-off giants and hags do; and probably Sirius Black kept his account there and no one was allowed to track or tamper with it, for good or ill. It's a different principle than currently in our country, where the IRS and other agencies are allowed to mess if there's suspicion of ill-gotten gains - but consider that the goblins are something of a nation unto themselves, as they're shown; and if they're iron-clad honest and protect their investors' assets and haven't made a mistake in centuries, then everyone is probably quite happy with the status quo. Who knows? Maybe some of Voldemort's assets are actually invested for good causes without his knowledge. :-) Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From yellows at aol.com Thu Jun 12 23:19:53 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:19:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Peter knows Message-ID: <63C32E00.1AAC7321.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60208 In a message dated 6/12/2003 3:59:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, Kristi Willard writes: > Did Ron bring Scabbers to Harry's house on either of his trips (CS or Gof)? > If so, Peter knows where Harry lives. Perhaps the Dementor's were sent by V > and not the ministry (sorry, haven't heard the AOL clip). What are the > spells preventing V from getting to Harry at the Dursley's > house? :) Am I losing it, or isn't Scabbers nolonger a pet by GoF? Don't confuse me like that! ;) But I can see this being a possibility, whether Wormtail knows where Harry lives or not. I think Mrs. Figg's presence nearby is evidence that Harry *can* be found on Privet Drive. He just needs to be protected. There are likely many wizards and witches keeping watch over Harry there, which is why Dumbledore insists that Harry go back to the Dursleys every summer, regardless of the treatment he receives from them. Dumbledore knows Harry is watched and protected while he's on Privet Drive. Brief Chronicles From byujava at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 23:25:22 2003 From: byujava at yahoo.com (Kirsten Gilson) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 16:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Peter knows In-Reply-To: <63C32E00.1AAC7321.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030612232522.34056.qmail@web41307.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60209 > :) Am I losing it, or isn't Scabbers nolonger a pet > by GoF? Don't confuse me like that! ;) > He's no longer a pet by the END of GoF, but he definitely is for 3/4 of the book. Kirsten __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Thu Jun 12 23:26:00 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 23:26:00 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60210 Cindy wrote: > Now that June 21 is just around the corner (Wow! -- We'll be reading > OoP next weekend!), maybe it's time to get *serious* here. No more > having a whole bunch of vague predictions to your name. Maybe it's > time for a gut-check -- time for anyone who's willing to stand on > just one OoP prediction to step forward. > > And not just any old prediction, either. Let's say you only get to > make *one* prediction. This is so unfair. Just when I have hardly any time to read the list, this happens. I don't have the chance to read the predictions, so if I'm duplicating, please let me know offlist. Anyway, this is mine: Harry will spend a significant amount of time *during the school year* away from Hogwarts. He will be accompanied by Ginny. David, hoping somebody has done the obvious H/R SHIP prediction From CareALotsClouds at aol.com Thu Jun 12 23:28:52 2003 From: CareALotsClouds at aol.com (CareALotsClouds at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:28:52 EDT Subject: The Lethifold Message-ID: <11.132d3c5a.2c1a66b4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60211 Hi ya I was wondering where JK got the idea of the Lethifold from because it sounds like a sleeping disorder I get. I wonder if she has it? Its called sleep paralysis. Its when you are falling into REM sleep or waking up from REM sleep so you are awake and you suddenly become paralysed with a feeling of somebody pushing down on your chest. Depending on the severness of the disorder you can hallucinate (an evil figure in a black cloak), be raped, strangled etc (unfortunately I get the more severe one :/). The Lethifold has similarties to this, such as the black cloak, the choking and suffocating and the feeling of evil. I just thought it was very much a coincidence. If I ever meet JK it will be the thing that I ask her. Just my thoughts, Loadsa love Nicola x x x [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patricia at obscure.org Thu Jun 12 23:29:22 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:29:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Professor Binns In-Reply-To: <19f.1650ff8f.2c1a2bfc@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60212 On Thu, 12 Jun 2003 Kadoo96801 at aol.com wrote: > Now I have doubt that Binns actually died in the staff room fire! My impression was that Binns died *in front of* the staff room fire, not *in* a fire. I pictured him nodding off in a big upholstered arm chair, positioned near enough to the fireplace to get pleasantly warm but not burned, and then dying peacefully in his sleep. Could you explain what makes you think he was burned to death? I don't have the book in front of me, but I don't remember anything like that. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From pegruppel at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 23:28:57 2003 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (pegruppel) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 23:28:57 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60213 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." wrote: > You know, I'll bet there have been *thousands* of predictions on this > list about what will happen in OoP. I've probably made dozens > myself, some of them mutually exclusive. ;-) We've had polls about > all sorts of predictions, too. > Me: OK, here's one: A relative of Stoned!Harry. I think Harry is the Secret Keeper for the Secret of Immortality. Harry isn't immortal himself, he's just the repository of the spell that will make a person immortal. Unlike the Philosopher's Stone, which is needed to make Elixir of Life that must be taken at intervals to maintain a prolonged life, the *real* secret grants immortality, period. It was hidden in Harry because, as a baby, he wouldn't know, himself, what the secret was, and could never betray it. There's nothing in canon that says that a secret has to be something verbal, just information, and the secret could be a symbol, a phrase of music, or something else. Just being the Keeper of this secret was enough to make the AK curse bounce off Harry and onto Voldemort. Lily's death seems only to be enough to keep Voldemort from touching Harry, not to account for the spell that failed. I don't disagree that Harry is *also* the heir of Gryffindor, and fated to destroy Voldemort. I do, however, believe that if Voldemort had known that Harry was the Secret Keeper for the spell he most wants, he wouldn't have tried to kill him. But he wouldn't have been able to get the information out of Harry, even if he spared his life. A neat way to frustrate the most evil wizard in a hundred years, hmm? The Heir who is to be Voldemort's downfall turns out to be the "safe deposit box" for the one thing he wants most. Voldemort should really read the "Instructions for Evil Overlords." :) OK, that may earn me my own featherboa. But, just to be safe, I'll throw in a prediction that I know will be true: When we turn the last page of OOP, whether for the first time or the tenth, we'll all think: "So, what happens next?" Peg From patricia at obscure.org Thu Jun 12 23:40:30 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:40:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Peter knows In-Reply-To: <20030612232522.34056.qmail@web41307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60214 On Thu, 12 Jun 2003, Kirsten Gilson wrote: > > :) Am I losing it, or isn't Scabbers nolonger a pet > > by GoF? Don't confuse me like that! ;) > > > > He's no longer a pet by the END of GoF, but he > definitely is for 3/4 of the book. No, Peter runs off to the forests of Albania at the end of PoA. By the beginning of GoF he has found Voldemort and is helping nurse him back to health in the old Riddle house. He is definitely no longer a pet by GoF. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jun 13 00:03:50 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 00:03:50 -0000 Subject: OOP: OoTP clip - driving me crazy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60215 I can't help thinking that this is some kind of follow up from the altercation on the train. There's foreshadowing from CoS and PoA that Lucius Malfoy would retaliate if somebody injured his son. Maybe the Dementors were sent to apprehend Harry and he fought them off. Then there's Molly's mysterious comment. When *what's* finished? A meeting of the supersecret Order of the Phoenix perhaps? Pippin From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 13 00:04:52 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 00:04:52 -0000 Subject: Disabilities in HP? In-Reply-To: <20030612175012.83570.qmail@web12203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60216 <<<--- shanna wrote: I'm curious what would happen if for some reason a disabled person were to attend Hogwarts or another similar magical institution. I realize this is completely hypothetical and not likely to ever be included in canon, but as someone with a visual disability, I have to wonder.>>> The Sergeant Majorette says: Canon-wise, I think a disabled person would be a red herring. However, in the "real" magical world (i.e., any of the alternate universes we seem to be cobbling together around here), there is precedent: the blind seer is a stock character, and I suppose this concept could be extended to other sensory disablities under the theory that enforced withdrawal in one area sharpens abilities in the others, or facilitates focus. Muscular-skeletal or neuromotor disabilities are another case. The author would have to construct a whole logical system to explain why a witch or wizard would not simply correct the condition with magic, like Hermione with her buck teeth only way more complicated. You'd also have to decide whether disability in your wizarding cosmos is natural or magical, and what difference, if any, that makes. That done, it's a cruise -- it's not like these wizarding schools have phys ed classes. Actually, when you get right down to it, Harry has a visual disability, albeit a mild one. In the US, he would technically be a member of a protected class under equal opportunity laws... This might be an interesting area for an author to get into. Flying wheelchairs, bewitched canes? How about a character whose wizard gifts get noticed when medical tests reveal that the kid has been blind or deaf since birth, and has been unwittingly compensating so well magically that nobody noticed? From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 00:17:29 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 00:17:29 -0000 Subject: A random thought on the missing Death Eater In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60217 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mmemalkin" wrote: > > > ...wasn't Voldemort under the turban when Snape was chastising > Quirrell about his loyalties? ...figured ... Voldemort knows he has > switched sides, and was referring to Snape in the graveyard scene in > GoF when he says one of his followers has left him and will be killed. > If Dumbledore was sending Snape to spy on the DE's, then I guess a slow death by > torture could fit the "horrible to write" description... > > ~Diane > Eschewing obfuscation > > bboy_mn: Point 1: When Voldemort via Quirrel encountered Snape in SS/PS, Snape was not aware that Voldemort was there, so Snape had no reason to support Quirrel's action. From Snape's perspective, there is no connection between Snape's loyalties and Quirrel's attempt to steal the Philosopher's Stone. Snape is just doing his job and maintaining his cover. Certainly, Voldemort can't blame Snape for something Snape was completely unaware of. It's also reasonably easy to understand that Voldemort would not reveal himself. Since Snape is working for Dumbledore, his loyalties are in unknown or at least uncertain. So Voldemort probably thought that the fewer people who knew of his presents the better. Once he had the Stone then there would be plenty of time to test people's loyalties. The point is that Snape's action in SS/PS are in no way a reflection of his loyalties to Voldemort. Point 1: The exact quote with my emphasis added is- "One, who I BELIEVE has left me forever...he will be killed, of course..." When Voldemort says 'I believe...' he is allowing for or expressing an element of doubt. He knows Karkarov is to cowardly to return. He knows Crouch!Moody remains his most faithful servant. But he's not quite sure what to make of Snape. It seems as though Snape might have left Voldemort forever, but only time will tell for sure. I'm a believer in the Snape as a Triple Agent Theory. Snape was working for Voldemort when he pretended to go good and joined Dumbledore as a spy against Voldemort when in reality he was still working for Voldemort. At least, that's Voldemort's perspective. In reality, Snape had genuinely joined Dumbledore side and was only pretending to spy for Voldemort. A convoluted as that is, from Voldemort's perspective, Snape is suppose to be pretending to be a good guy, but at this point, Voldemort doesn't know if Snape is pretending or not. Hence, the element of doubt. This also gives Snape a way to get back into Voldemort's good graces, although I suspect it will be a very painful re-entry into those good graces. Once Snape is back in, he can continue his role pretenting to work with Dumbledore while pretending to spying for Voldemort. There is one problem with being a double, or triple or whatever agent, sooner or later you have to provide some worthwhile information. To maintain his cover, Snape will have to reveal valid useful information against Dumbledore. The only problem with this idea is that it seems to be what JKR wants us to believe, just like she lead us to believe that Scabbers was an old rat, and Sirius was a insane, deadly, dangerous criminal. Just a thought. bboy_mn From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 13 00:19:17 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 00:19:17 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction/ CreeveyMunching!Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60218 Evening, thread. I still think Dobby has great tragic potential for sacrifice, especially as we know there's more house elf stuff to come in OOP, and I think it's going to happen just like I fic-ed it in message 50442, because I don't like house elves, and am feeling particularly Dark this evening. Possibly with an extra twist - Dobby is forced to choose between his loyalty to his own kind and to Harry...squelch! I've actually given this some thought this time round, too. I've noticed that everyone has been debating the recurrent argument about Hagrid and Lupin both being examples of minority groups with the potential to be redeemed. Surely house elves fit into this category; after all, we've experienced most directly here the WW's capacity for mistreatment of perceived "lesser" beings. If Dobby dies in some big, bangy way, grabbing headlines, redeeming his race from all taint of Evil!Winky and earning them better treatment through increased respect, then SPEW's work is done without compromising house elf identity. (On that subject, I think it *has* to be significant that Hermione, and by extension, the reader, is continually reminded that house elves have an inbuilt capacity for self-sacrifice.) Still think Lupin's gonna go, just maybe not in Book 5. I *really* like the Dennis Creevey idea. In the post cited above I mentioned that Lupin is the only one of the Marauders without a clearly defined role, and I think someone has already identified the pointlessness of Little Dennis. A possible link? I was also thinking about the significance of Dennis and Colin being Muggle-born, and therefore DE targets - potential anti-Order of Phoenix (group not book) propaganda from the Daily Prophet if Lupin eats him? I realise I am now drifting sleepily away from all things rock and solid. I'll put my money on Dobby - she starts small and then builds right up to a Hagrid/Lupin/DD death pact in Book Six or Seven. Kirstini (talking in her sleep) From rayheuer3 at aol.com Fri Jun 13 00:27:41 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:27:41 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lethifolds and Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60219 marie_mouse at hotmail.com writes: > I'm in a computer lab and don't have my books with me, but don't > we already *know* it wasn't a Lethifold? I thought I remembered > Voldemort saying Quirrell had been the one to drink the unicorn > blood for him. (You know, in the big Bond villian-esque > explanation scene at the end?) Am I completely loosing it? No, it was indeed Voldemort using Quirrell's body. But when you need your HP fix, you start having odd visions :-) -- Ray "Yes, Severus does seem the type, doesn't he? So useful to have him swooping around like an overgrown bat. Next to him, who would suspect p-p-poor, st-stuttering P-Professor Quirrell?" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 13 00:29:31 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 00:29:31 -0000 Subject: Animagi, animals and other puzzles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60220 <<<--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Renee Daniels" wrote: Calimora (Wondering why *glasses* are often physical markers on animagi even when they're not actually part of the witch.)>>> The Sergeant Majorette says: To those of us who have been wearing glasses virtually all our lives, they *are* a part of the witch. I couldn't wait to get contacts when I was a teenager, but as it turned out I kept smacking myself in the face pushing up glasses that weren't there. I think I look *pretty* in contacts, but I just don't feel like myself. JDR (four-eyed to the grave...) From pegruppel at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 00:29:38 2003 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (pegruppel) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 00:29:38 -0000 Subject: Some people can be wierd about their pets... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60221 A follow-up to my own post> I can't recall where, and right now I can't seem to find the reference, but I have seen the phoenix referred to as the "King of the Birds." This would certainly fit very nicely into a grand showdown between the forces of evil (basilisk) and the forces of good (phoenix). On the other hand, maybe we've had a preview of the outcome in the battle between Fawkes and the Basilisk in COS, hmmm? a librarian who is now off to find the citation for "King of > the Birds" because it's making her nuts. Now the follow-up: I still can't find a specific reference to "King of the Birds", but I have found online references to the Feng-Huang, the Chinese phoenix, the "emperor of the birds," and a quote from Dryden that describes the phoenix as a queen. Well, both rulers, but not specifically "king." I guess I misremembered the quote. In case anybody cares . . . Peg From yellows at aol.com Fri Jun 13 00:32:02 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:32:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Names Message-ID: <3DC5729B.30B477E9.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60222 In a message dated 6/12/2003 4:55:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, katienOw writes: > In chapter thirty-six: The Parting of the Ways, (Page 616 in UK > paperback) Snape refers to LV as "the Dark Lord". > > "Every Death Eater had the sign burnt into him by the Dark Lord." > > I wonder if this is significant to where his real loyalties > lie. You may have a good point, but I think it may also be some of that former-Death Eater in him speaking. He probably called him "Dark Lord" for a while before turning from Voldemort, and sees no reason to change the name. It's almost like Dumbledore's insistance that fearing Voldemort's name only increases fear of Voldemort himself. Maybe Snape feels that calling Voldemort something he's not used to calling him only makes Voldemort more important and powerful than he deserves to be. Brief Chronicles From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 00:54:45 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 00:54:45 -0000 Subject: Peter knows In-Reply-To: <63C32E00.1AAC7321.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60223 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/12/2003 3:59:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, Kristi Willard writes: > > > Did Ron bring Scabbers to Harry's house on either of his trips (CS > > or Gof)? > > If so, Peter knows where Harry lives. ...edited... > > :) Am I losing it, or isn't Scabbers nolonger a pet by GoF? Don't > confuse me like that! ;) > > But I can see this being a possibility, whether Wormtail knows where Harry lives or not. I think Mrs. Figg's presence nearby is evidence that Harry *can* be found ...edited... > > Brief Chronicles bboy_mn: Well, Brief Chronicles, I did notice the 'winky face' at the end of your first paragraph, but I'm going to say this anyway. The real point isn't which book did Scabbers stop being a pet in, but the fact that Ron had been to Harry's house, and that opens the possibility that Scabbers has also been there. I don't think the fact that Harry was living in the Muggle world was a secret, but I also don't think the Dursleys home address was common knowledge amoung wizards. Certainly, any wizard who had a basic understanding of the Muggle world could have looked up the address. But I also think there was an understanding in the wizard world that wizards were suppose to stay away from Harry and leave him alone. Certainly, a few loose cannons like Dedalus Diggle might bow, wave, or shake his hand when Harry was out and about, but I suspect most knew if they went poking around Privet Drive, they would incur Dumbledore's wrath. Wormtail without a doubt has a lot of dangerous knowledge. He is intimately familiar with the secret passage way into Hogwart's castle. He has a lot of knowledge of what went on in the Weasley home. He has a lot of intimate knowledge about Harry. He is certainly one dangerous man, especially since his loyalties can shift in a second to suit his own ends. To the original question, it's hard to say if the DE's would or could attack Privet Drive given the ancient magic that protects it. Voldemort even admits that he can't touch Harry there. Although, instead of attacking Harry with wands and magic, they could attack him with paper. There is speculation that Harry will be commited to St. Mungo's because the Ministry believes he is unstable. With a little help from Lucius and Drace, the Ministry could come to Privet Drive after Harry. And let's not rule out the possibility of an attack on Harry at the Weasley's home. Just a thought. bboy_mn From sushi at societyhappens.com Fri Jun 13 01:01:15 2003 From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:01:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Disabilities in HP? In-Reply-To: References: <20030612175012.83570.qmail@web12203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030612191655.03536c00@mail.societyhappens.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60224 >The Sergeant Majorette says: > >This might be an interesting area for an author to get into. Flying >wheelchairs, bewitched canes? How about a character whose wizard >gifts get noticed when medical tests reveal that the kid has been >blind or deaf since birth, and has been unwittingly compensating so >well magically that nobody noticed? Sushi's two cents: This is actually something I've done some thinking about. A fanfic series of mine includes a character (albeit a dead one - somebody's grandmother) who is confined to a wheelchair/hoverchair. (Looks like a regular chair, but it hovers an inch or so over any surface. Fun on rough terrain.) She was cursed at a fairly young age, and the effects were irreversible and eventually fatal. It was the natural outcome (for me) of... well, pretty much this train. The conclusions on disability I came to, based on what we've seen in canon, are: Magically-induced injuries, such as unbreakable curses and curse scars, are more likely to have permanent effects. Harry has a physical scar from a magical encounter; Moody is one big ball of curse scars, and presumably lost his leg and his eye to magical means. Thus, where physical injuries - ie, Harry's broken arm - can be treated swiftly and painlessly, magical injuries - ie, having all the bones removed - are more difficult to treat, and sometimes even impossible. Soft tissue is more difficult to repair than hard. A dose of Skele-Gro (tm)(yech) is all that's needed to regrow bones, and Madam Pomfrey said she can fix a broken one in seconds. However, Professor Snape wasn't able to brew a potion to heal a dog bite. You'd think someone who can make Wolfsbane Potion would be capable of putting together something to heal soft tissue instantly. Either it requires wand-type magic he's not qualified to perform, or - more likely - it's a tricky situation given the malleability of the tissue. (This isn't to say it wasn't treated at all. He might have simply required a few days or hours for it to heal fully, or the nerve regeneration process might have been painful enough in itself to cause a limp.) Birth defects are either rare among wizards, or treatable. If you can re-grow a bone that was lost or damaged beyond repair ('cause, let's face it, there are situations where removing all traces of a bone would come in handy - splintered compound fracture, anyone?), why not re-grow a section of spinal tissue? Or a liver? Or why wouldn't there be a potion to do the process gradually? It could simply be a case where most or all problems like spina bifida are sufficiently treated by the time a child reaches Hogwarts that they are no longer a serious issue. Or, another option: they're treated in the womb. Surely it's possible for detect the problems with the right spells. Natural aging is going to happen. Dumbledore wears glasses because he's old. Trelawney wears glasses because... er, well, she's Trelawney. Perkins in Arthur's office has developed lumbago. Even wizard bodies break down over time, and it's either an untreatable condition or it's more trouble to treat than it's worth. This might also apply to chronic conditions in the young. (On the other hand, with the amount of sugar given freely to students at Hogwarts and the lack of sugar-free alternatives, I suspect their diabetes treatments are sufficient to let a diabetic students chow down on sweets with the rest of them. This also says something about their metabolisms and dental skills.) Wizards are not immune to physical attack. Harry's arm was broken by a good Bludger, another Bludger left Viktor Krum a broody mess, two Wronski Feints left the Irish Seeker (Conolly?) a grinning, concussed loon for a while, and Cedric was burned by a dragon. They can be smacked around, beaten to a bloody pulp, burnt to a crisp, eaten by manticores, and suffer if not the entire range of Muggle disasters then at least a large number of them. These injuries can, presumably, bring on the entire range of traumas: from stress-induced cardiac arrest, to shock, to death by exsanguination, to post-traumatic stress disorder (an exceedingly severe form of which the Longbottoms may suffer from). While the treatments may be more varied - up to and including unicorn blood, about which I've got my own theories - they are not guaranteed to work. Just as in all medicine, there is such thing as luck of the draw. (I see no reason why CPR wouldn't be as useful a skill in the wizarding world as the Muggle world. It'd be useful to keep a heart attack victim alive until a mediwizard arrived on the scene.) Hmm. This got long. Sorry about that, guys. Sliding back into my hole now! Sushi, lurking in the darkness... my precioussssss... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From RhianynTheCat at aol.com Thu Jun 12 23:41:39 2003 From: RhianynTheCat at aol.com (RhianynTheCat at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:41:39 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Peter knows Message-ID: <102.2fa7a419.2c1a69b3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60225 In a message dated 6/12/2003 4:21:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, yellows at aol.com writes: > There are likely many wizards and witches keeping watch over Harry there, > which is why Dumbledore insists that Harry go back to the Dursleys every > summer, regardless of the treatment he receives from them. Dumbledore knows Harry > is watched and protected while he's on Privet Drive. > Rhianyn wonders: But wouldn't he be equally well watched over by Molly and Arthur Weasly? I think there has to be more to it than that. I just don't know what :) :::Curls fluffy black tail about herself just _so_ and returns to napping by the fire:::: ^ ^ =( * .*)= [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From RhianynTheCat at aol.com Thu Jun 12 23:44:17 2003 From: RhianynTheCat at aol.com (RhianynTheCat at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:44:17 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Peter knows Message-ID: <1de.a744982.2c1a6a51@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60226 In a message dated 6/12/2003 4:28:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time, byujava at yahoo.com writes: > He's no longer a pet by the END of GoF, but he > definitely is for 3/4 of the book. > Rhianyn begs to differ: Erm, no. He was found out in PoA :::Curls fluffy black tail about herself just _so_ and returns to napping by the fire:::: ^ ^ =( * .*)= [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mangankat at aol.com Fri Jun 13 00:10:02 2003 From: mangankat at aol.com (animagikat) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 00:10:02 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60227 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "katien0w" wrote: > we have not yet seen Snape refer to him in any way or by any name at > all. If, as you postulate, the name one uses to refer to Voldie is > a reflection of your opinionof/belief about him, Snape's mode of > reference should be quite telling. My guess -- Voldemort.> > > > katien0w (me): > I'm a newbie here and this is is my first post, so I hope it's valid > > In chapter thirty-six: The Parting of the Ways, (Page 616 in UK > paperback) Snape refers to LV as "the Dark Lord". > > "Every Death Eater had the sign burnt into him by the Dark Lord." > > I wonder if this is significant to where his real loyalties lie. > > katien0w What I find interesting is that in ss/ps, page 11, AD refers to Voldemort as "his proper name". Why would he saw that when it's oviously not? Animagikat From esk at europa.com Fri Jun 13 00:53:59 2003 From: esk at europa.com (Cindy L Wells) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:53:59 -0700 Subject: OOP: Professor Binns References: <1055453834.8456.65923.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004001c33146$492fd890$6364adcf@jwells> No: HPFGUIDX 60228 Marie wrote: >That said, I do think Kelly has an intriguing theory. JK has said >there's a reason some people become ghosts and others don't, and that >the happiest people don't. (Obviously, folks like Myrtle aren't too >happy.) But we've never seen anything that suggests Binns is >unhappy; he enjoys teaching enough that his death didn't faze him or >keep him from continuing. He might have some other secret sadness >(or maybe he's gotten over it because he's been a ghost for a long >time). Then again, I think Nearly Headless Nick's lack of happiness >may be partly due to his decapitation, so I think it's possible that >cause of death made Binns into a ghost, too. If he's a "new" enough >ghost to have died during the Riddle years, Kelly's suggestion has a >lot of merit in my mind. Actually the suggestion by Kelly that really seemed important to me was not the AK curse, but the simple idea that Professor Binns didn't know that he had died. Goodness knows how much of ghost hunter lore (whether real or deluded) has stated that much of the process of getting ghosts to "move on" has to do with convincing them that they're actually dead (no, it's not just the "go into the light" clichs.:-P) The other ghosts in the castle know they're dead, in part because of the violence of their death, which also provides their reason for not moving on. Binns really had no shocking event to make it clear to him that he had passed on, and this might explain the lack of traumatic events playing a determining role. The other thing in ghostie lore that seems to keep ghosts around is unfinished business, but it is not always of an emotional resolution nature (like Moaning Myrtle wanting to get revenge on Olive.) Sometimes it's just simply because they are so attached to the fact that they need to go out and get the groceries that they're not about to let dying stop them. Maybe when Binns died he was so caught up in plans of "must plan next lesson, must grade test scores, must revise next lecture," that any potential of leaving cleanly was passed on (pardon the pun). Still, I certainly leave a large amount of room open for new revelations about Professor Binns, and certainly you would think that one of the other professors would've tapped him on his ectoplasmic shoulder and let him in on the fact that he's dead. Maybe the pay is too good, and he wants to keep his tenure . . . Cindy W From esk at europa.com Fri Jun 13 01:15:22 2003 From: esk at europa.com (Cindy L Wells) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:15:22 -0700 Subject: The Lethifold References: <1055460684.23551.12163.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004101c33149$43f41870$6364adcf@jwells> No: HPFGUIDX 60229 Nicola wrote: > I was wondering where JK got the idea of the Lethifold from because it sounds > like a sleeping disorder I get. I wonder if she has it? Its called sleep > paralysis. Its when you are falling into REM sleep or waking up from REM sleep > so you are awake and you suddenly become paralysed with a feeling of somebody > pushing down on your chest. Depending on the severness of the disorder you > can hallucinate (an evil figure in a black cloak), be raped, strangled etc > (unfortunately I get the more severe one :/). > > The Lethifold has similarties to this, such as the black cloak, the choking > and suffocating and the feeling of evil. I just thought it was very much a > coincidence. Sleep Paralysis is the medical/scientific term for it, but as it's a disorder that's always been around, you can bet that more than one culture has made very different interpretations as to the causes of this phenomena. The psychic Sylvia Browne--in her book "Book of Dreams"--defines the same disorder as "astral catalepsy", and she believes it comes from coming in and out of out-of-body states. Whether you believe this or not is unimportant; what's valuable about the book are her accounts of how other cultures have interpreted this phenomena. (I wish I had the book in hand to write them down in full here, but it's on loan to a friend.) In Japan, for instance, they believed it was ghosts trying to suffocate the living, and other cultures had equally supernatural figures to explain it. I've dealt with this problem, too, so I found those accounts fascinating. Basically, as sleep paralysis has been around as long as there have been humans, I wouldn't be surprised if many cultures have their own version of the Lethifold, and it could be from one of these that JKR got her inspiration. Cindy W From odilefalaise at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 01:41:48 2003 From: odilefalaise at yahoo.com (Odile Falaise) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:41:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Lethifold In-Reply-To: <004101c33149$43f41870$6364adcf@jwells> Message-ID: <20030613014148.12213.qmail@web13103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60230 Nicola wrote: <<< I was wondering where JK got the idea of the Lethifold from because it sounds like a sleeping disorder I get. I wonder if she has it? Its called sleep paralysis. Its when you are falling into REM sleep or waking up from REM sleep so you are awake and you suddenly become paralysed with a feeling of somebody pushing down on your chest. Depending on the severness of the disorder you can hallucinate (an evil figure in a black cloak), be raped, strangled etc>>> Odile (moi) chiming in: Gosh! Nicola, that sounds awful! There is a reference to this in "The Science of Harry Potter" (I do not have it handy - checked out and since returned to the library!) Evidently, some cultures (like that of my Croatian friend) believe that it is a witch or hag sitting on your chest, as though they were riding you: you are therefore "hag ridden," or "hag rid." Get it? Odile... eight days.......!!! whee!! From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 01:45:21 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 01:45:21 -0000 Subject: OOP: OoTP clip - driving me crazy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60231 Pippin wrote: Then there's Molly's mysterious comment. When *what's* finished? A meeting of the supersecret Order of the Phoenix perhaps? Tom adds: Perhaps, perhaps... although why would the Order of the Phoenix be meeting in a house that looked like it was owned by an uber-dark wizard? This is clearly the first time that Harry sees Ron and Hermione after the end of GoF, because there's mention of changes in Ron's appearance during their time away from each other. So, the first time Harry sees them after GoF, it's because Mrs. Weasley (alone) is bringing him to a deserted, dark-looking house with snake heads for doorknobs. She takes him to the second floor, tells him to go in a certain door, and then leaves in a hurry, muttering to herself. She doesn't entirely seem herself. Why does she have to be off so quickly? And why is she leaving those kids alone in a freaky house? And why does she seem to know about this house, too? I want to know what Dumbledore told Ron and Hermione not to tell Harry, and why their summer correspondence wasn't worth anything much. So, they can't throw Harry out of school? Uh-oh. So it begins. I think my sanity is going to continue to leak out of my head, bit by bit, until next Friday. Note to self: should probably invest in corks for my ears to prevent that from happening. -Tom, who will be in line at midnight on the 21st, who will go home with lots (and lots) of coffee, and who will probably not sleep until he's read OOP all the way through. From linlou43 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 01:55:13 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 01:55:13 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60232 > What I find interesting is that in ss/ps, page 11, AD refers to > Voldemort as "his proper name". Why would he saw that when it's > oviously not? > > Animagikat Linda(Me): I always thought that Dumbledore considers Voldemort to be his true name because Tom Riddle went through so many "magical transformations" that there is really nothing of Riddle left. All that is left is Voldemort. Even Hagrid thinks that "there was not enough human left in him to die". Just my two knuts, Linda From kemp at arcom.com.au Fri Jun 13 02:03:47 2003 From: kemp at arcom.com.au (pickle_jimmy) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 02:03:47 -0000 Subject: OOP Spoiler: Amazon Audio Discussion and Questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60233 Please dont read this if you dont want to know anything about what is in the audio grab of book five on amazon.com . . . . . . . ----------- BOOK 5 SPOLIER ALERT --------------- . . . . . . I have some questions regarding what we learn - or don't learn - from the added detail in the audio grab... Harry has been separated from Ron and Hermione for a month, during which time they *have* been able to send him letters, but the letters have *not* been able to contain any information that would have been helpful to him (under Dumbledore's orders). Question: Under whose care has Harry been for the last month that would have needed this kind of mail censorship? Hermione mentions 1)Dementors and 2)Harry being in trouble for the performance of underage magic to protect his life. Question: Are we jumping to conclusions thinking that Harry summoned a Patronus to protect himself from the dementors? The two things could be totally unrelated. I have read some of the theories, but I believe that if Harry *had* summoned a Patronus, it *would* have been powerful enough to drive away the dementors - we've seen him do just that in PoA. The location of the scene is an old house that appears as though it could have belonged to a wizard(s) that were not on the side of good (sorry if this is convoluted - I am trying to not quote the audio grab) - even down to the snake motif doorknob. Question: What are Ron, Hermione, and Mrs Weasley doing there? Why have they taken (summoned/brought) Harry there? Hermione mentions a ministry hearing (regarding Harry's use of underage magic), Mrs Weasley leaves Harry with Ron and Hermione and says she will come back for him when "it" has finished. Question: Is it the hearing that is going on in (behind) this scene? If not, what *is* going on that needs Ron and Hermione to baby-sit Harry until it's over? We are introduced to how Ron looks (height, nose length, hair colour, freckles), so it seems that this is his first appearance in OOP. Question: Is this very early in the book, or are we going to see Harry's side of the "month" before R&H are introduced? Other questions: Why does Mrs Weasley whisper distractedly when talking to Harry? What is she distracted by? Why is she whispering? Why is Ron's owl there? Is the room where R&H are significant? What does twin-bedded mean? This is from me as an Aussie - does it mean 2 single beds, or is it a colloquialism for a double bed? Why didn't R&H hear Harry arrive? Were they expecting to hear him arrive? What mode of transport did Harry take to get to this odd house? Why the snake motif on the door handle? Why is the house do dingy and gloomy? Pickle Jimmy From artsylynda at aol.com Fri Jun 13 02:03:56 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 22:03:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] children of DE's Message-ID: <14b.2047f16f.2c1a8b0c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60234 Brief Chronicles writes: > I think it could be possible that the Death Eaters having children all > around the same time could have lessened Voldemort's power little by little. > Perhaps that's part of the reason Voldemort himself needed to go for the Potters. > He could have sent a Death Eater to do his dirty work, but maybe they were > all busy with their children, who were all about a year old at the time. > erm. . .have you studied much about the staffs of dictators, such as Hitler, for instance? Family concerns didn't get in the way of them doing what Hitler wanted. And even today, here in the good ol' USA, when a person has to go on a business trip, he goes, or he may lose his job. If a DE put his kids first (I sincerely doubt any of them were what we'd consider "good parents" -- no "Ozzie and Harriet's" in that bunch!), he'd be dead, as would his entire family, I suspect. Voldemort would make an example of him. That's how dictators stay in power, by meeting disobedience, or even reluctance to follow orders, with violent -- and usually terminal -- consequences. Study some history, there have been lots of "Voldemort" type characters in the past. Hitler's just one example. Pick a Caesar, most any Caesar will do. If you mess with Caesar, he may crucify you. Or he may send you to the front lines in battle. Or he may throw you in a lion's den. "My kids have Little League tonight, Great Caesar, so I can't throw those Christians to the lions tonight. I'll do it tomorrow." Yeah, and guess what the consequences of that disobedience would be? Caesar: "I think you'd make a nice hors d'oevres for the lions tonight. Go right down to the Colusseum and get aquainted with my kitties." LOL! Evil leaders aren't nice to their followers and if the children get in the way, the children, and often that follower as well, are forcibly removed. History has shown this to be true over and over. As for why Voldie went to the Potters himself -- he had a personal grudge against them, or some other personal reason that HE had to be the one to go there. He wanted to kill HARRY, a baby. He didn't want someone else to do it. If he wanted someone else to kill Harry, Wormtail could've slit Harry's throat rather than just poking his arm with a knife (in GoF) -- there was no reason for Wormtail to be as "gentle" with Harry as he was, except that life debt he owes Harry. Voldemort wants to kill Harry himself, it's an ego thing, or maybe he honestly needs Harry's life force for him to become what he wants -- completely immortal. But how would he know that Harry could provide that kind of power to him? Especially when Harry was just a toddler when V. first went after him? I am very interested in finding out the answer to that, and to why Dumbledore seems to be prepping, even pushing Harry into confrontations with Voldemort. If Dumbledore is as great a wizard as Voldemort, why not just deal with V. and have done with it? Why make a kid do it? That's what I'd like to know. D. sending Harry off to do this job, over and over again, with fairly full knowledge of what the boy will face (he does seem to know what Harry's faced or will face a lot of times) makes D. seem more evil than good in some ways. Even if Harry were somehow "magicked into being" (rather than being a normal child) in order to be the "savior" of the wizarding world, if D. is equal in power to V., why doesn't he just deal with him and stop messing around? Of course, if he did, we would be very frustrated because there wouldn't be any Harry Potter books. . . . Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 02:18:02 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: phoenix + empress (was) Some people can be wierd about their pets... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030613021802.58915.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60235 Peg following-up: > I still can't find a specific > reference to "King of the Birds", but > I have found online references to the > Feng-Huang, the Chinese phoenix, > the "emperor of the birds," and a > quote from Dryden that describes > the phoenix as a queen. Well, both > rulers, but not specifically "king." > I guess I misremembered the quote. > > > In case anybody cares . . . Just a point of clarification...did the references say "emperor of the birds" or empress? In Chinese mythology, dragon and the phoenix often exist as a pair. The dragon symbolizes all things yang (the energy usually associated with the male) while the phoenix symbolizes all thing yin (the energy usually associated with the female) when used to represent any metaphors involving two contrasting and/or complementary entities. This is why emperors are represented by dragons while empresses are represented by phoenixes in so much of the Chinese imperial art. This applies only to the Feng-Huang; most non-Asian references to the phoenix seem to either assign the male gender or none at all. So chances are, the reference to "King of the Birds" that you seek wasn't talking about the Feng-Huang. Hope this makes your search just that much shorter. Petra a n :) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From hochman_1999 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 02:39:44 2003 From: hochman_1999 at yahoo.com (Bob Hutch) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 02:39:44 -0000 Subject: The Hidden Key to Harry Potter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60236 Has anyone read the this book by John Granger? The book presents the author's theory that J.K. Rowling is an Inklings author, that is a Christian novelist in the mold of C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien. The book presents complying evidence from each of the first four books and presents the suthor's predictions for the next three books. I am sure fans who have read the book have some strong opinions about the author's theory. Any thoughts? Bob Hutch From oppen at mycns.net Fri Jun 13 02:53:43 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:53:43 -0500 Subject: Reattaching Limbs Message-ID: <01e301c33157$013879a0$38560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 60237 Another difference that AFAIK hasn't been suggested yet is that Harry and the girl who cursed off her nose are still growing, which might make all the difference. Mad-Eye, OTOH, was fully grown when he lost his parts, so possibly they couldn't re-attach them. From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 13 03:00:48 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 03:00:48 -0000 Subject: The Lethifold In-Reply-To: <20030613014148.12213.qmail@web13103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60238 <<< Nicola wrote: I was wondering where JK got the idea of the Lethifold from because it sounds like a sleeping disorder I get.? I wonder if she has it?? Its called sleep paralysis.>>> The Sergeant Major says: Pardon the digression, but have you tried B-complex? I had a moderately severe form of that, and interesting as the folklore of it is, it's pretty gosh-darned unpleasant, not to mention terrifying, at least the first time... --JDR From DMCourt11 at cs.com Fri Jun 13 03:36:48 2003 From: DMCourt11 at cs.com (bookraptor11) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 03:36:48 -0000 Subject: OOP: my take on the audio clip Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60239 Hi all: After I listened to it, I went to the Scholastic website to refresh my memory. Harry is in a strange house and I remembered a house was mentioned in the preview. To quote: "But at night it's even worse, because then he dreams of a single door in a silent corridor. And this door is somehow more terrifying than every other nightmare combined." It's possible that this whole clip is taken from a snippet of one of Harry's dreams. It would explain the strangeness of both the house and Mrs. Weasley's odd behavior. Like any dream it could be a jumble of things that had really happened (earlier in OOP) combined with Harry's fears and worries, like being expelled, and maybe a dash of precognition thrown in. If OOP follows the pattern, at the end of the summer magic has gotten Harry in trouble, whether from Dobby(COS) or himself (the snake at the zoo, Aunt Marge) or a deatheater stealing his wand(GOF). Something to do with dementors in OOP could have forced Harry to do magic to protect himself, as others on this list have stated. Fear of being expelled has been with Harry in every book and probably would worm its way into his dreams even when he hasn't done anything. Also, if he is dreaming this near the end of summer, it would be natural to dream that he's seeing Hermione and Ron after a month's absense, and in his mind he would be expecting to see changes, such as Ron's growth spurt. The house could be a buried memory of long ago, or (and I think this more likely) Harry is having a foretelling of a place he is going to go in OOP. We can't quote the audio clip but it sounds like a death eater's house to me! Thoughts anyone? Donna From rstephens at northwestern.edu Fri Jun 13 03:50:17 2003 From: rstephens at northwestern.edu (rachelbeth007) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 03:50:17 -0000 Subject: OOP Audio Spoiler: Location, purpose, beds, etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60240 Warning: contains theory regarding the audio excerpt. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pickle_jimmy" wrote: > The location of the scene is an old house that appears as though it > could have belonged to a wizard(s) that were not on the side of good > (sorry if this is convoluted - I am trying to not quote the audio > grab) - even down to the snake motif doorknob. This thought just popped into my head. They're at Snape's house. It would make sense for him to have snake motif doorknob due to his Slytherin and Death Eater background. It would seem dangerous to take HRH to a house in which an actual baddie resides, so I concluded it might be the home of a refomed one. (I feel this is also implied by the tone of the reading and the wording also supports this theory). > Question: What are Ron, Hermione, and Mrs Weasley doing there? Why > have they taken (summoned/brought) Harry there? I think Molly is taking part in some meeting (an OotP meeting?). Perhaps the Order (if that's the meaning of the word in this instance) is preparing a potion (which was Snape's task to begin) or even the Fidelius for Harry. The presence of Ron and Hermione seems to imply that they had prior knowledge, and/or they're directly involved in whatever is brewing (perhaps literally). God the possibilities are endless. > Question: Is this very early in the book, or are we going to see > Harry's side of the "month" before R&H are introduced? Oh definitely. Remember the book starts in the garden on Privet Drive. Whether it is Harry or Dudley or some other boy lying on his back in the flowerbed, it seems clear the OotP will start with Harry's summer just like the rest of the books. > Is the room where R&H are significant? > What does twin-bedded mean? This is from me as an Aussie - does it > mean 2 single beds, or is it a colloquialism for a double bed? Twin-bedded means there are two twin-beds in the room. Twin-beds are single beds, but when there are two in a room they're called twin beds. I can't decide whether this detail is significant. What first came to mind is that perhaps Ron and Hermione have stayed in this room overnight and this is a way to clearly state that there are two beds, though I'm not sure Molly would let that happen. Perhaps the house is crowded though, and there were not other options. Once again, endless possibilities. Rachel -Whose college graduation is terribly timed for Saturday morning, which will certainly delay her reading. : / From distractedone at comcast.net Fri Jun 13 03:53:18 2003 From: distractedone at comcast.net (Merlin) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 23:53:18 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction References: Message-ID: <02a301c3315f$53cca300$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60241 > (Snip) > I think they were switched > out of there bodies and then hidden away with another secret keeper > performing the Fidelius charm because they suspected Peter. This way > if they were right about Peter then Voldemort would think they were > dead and not continue to look for them. > > > > Merlin > > (snip)-------------------------------------------------------------- - > Hello Stephanie here: Merlin, if only it were true!! But my only thought is if they were still alive, how was it that they came out of Voldemort's wand? If someone dies while being someone else (polyjuice potion), I wonder if their old self or their polyjuice self would cme out of the wand...hmmm...food for thought. Steph > --------------------------------------------------------------- Ah yes, but I did say with a switching charm, not polyjuice potion. If you notice also Mr. Olivander did say that Lily's wand was good for charms. Since the entities that came out of Voldemort's wand were shadows of prior incantations, could it be shadows of their bodies and not their spirits? Merlin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Jun 13 04:15:19 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 23:15:19 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP Spoiler: Amazon Audio Discussion and Questions References: Message-ID: <003301c33162$671fd000$93a2cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 60242 > Please dont read this if you dont want to know anything about what is > in the audio grab of book five on amazon.com Ditto from me . . . . . . . ----------- BOOK 5 SPOLIER ALERT --------------- . . . . . . Pickle Jimmy wrote: > Question: Under whose care has Harry been for the last month that > would have needed this kind of mail censorship? I've got my opinion down to one of two options. (Both probably wrong, but hey, my imagination can only go so far). A) Harry's been at St. Mungo's for a month or B) Dumbledore has sent Harry away to a safe, secluded place for the past month where he has stayed alone. Now, I think Azkaban is safely out, because I doubt prisoners can get mail. Second, Dumbledore lets Hermione and Ron write, but they can't say anything of importance. Which makes me think Dumbledore thought that A)the mail would be intercepted or B) the mail would be read by the hospital staff before reaching Harry. Therefore nothing related to anything that wasn't public knowledge (like Sirius, for example) could be put in a letter to him. > Question: Are we jumping to conclusions thinking that Harry summoned > a Patronus to protect himself from the dementors? The two things > could be totally unrelated. I have read some of the theories, but I > believe that if Harry *had* summoned a Patronus, it *would* have been > powerful enough to drive away the dementors - we've seen him do just > that in PoA. It could be unrelated, however, I think the dementors had to have something to do with what has been going on the past month. It's possible that if Harry did encounter dementors and summoned a patronus, yet that isn't the full extent of the situation. Maybe something happened during the event while Harry was protecting himself. Something that brought harm to others or needed a lot of memory charms to fix. > Question: What are Ron, Hermione, and Mrs Weasley doing there? Why > have they taken (summoned/brought) Harry there? I think that it's possible Harry was released (from St. Mungo's) or sent for (by Dumbledore) because of the hearing--or upcoming result of the hearing. Perhaps since he is underage and his parents are dead (and no living wizard relatives) Mrs. Weasley will go in his place? As for where they're at, my first thought was the Malfoy Manor. But not likely, with the description that followed. Second thought was Snape's house. Well he had to live someplace before he started teaching at Hogwarts, right? And in the summers. And he was once a dark wizard. And Dumbledore trusts him. And it would be a bit ironic. > Question: Is it the hearing that is going on in (behind) this scene? > If not, what *is* going on that needs Ron and Hermione to baby-sit > Harry until it's over? I think it is either the hearing or the announcement of the decision from the hearing. > We are introduced to how Ron looks (height, nose length, hair colour, > freckles), so it seems that this is his first appearance in OOP. Possibly, or maybe not. It could just be a refresher since Harry hadn't seen him in a month, to emphasize the passage of time for the readers. > Why does Mrs Weasley whisper distractedly when talking to Harry? > What is she distracted by? > Why is she whispering? Well, on the off chance it IS Snape's house, wouldn't *you* whisper? > Why is Ron's owl there? Maybe he had returned with a message that Harry was on his way? > What does twin-bedded mean? This is from me as an Aussie - does it > mean 2 single beds, or is it a colloquialism for a double bed? This I've no idea about. "Twin bedded" is not a US term either, but I am assuming it simply means two beds. Richelle From lilpurplealdy at netscape.net Fri Jun 13 04:39:35 2003 From: lilpurplealdy at netscape.net (Juliet) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 04:39:35 -0000 Subject: Medical Treatments in the WW (WAS Re: Disabilities in HP?) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030612191655.03536c00@mail.societyhappens.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60243 Sushi: >>However, Professor Snape wasn't able to brew a potion to heal a dog bite. You'd think someone who can make Wolfsbane Potion would be capable of putting together something to heal soft tissue instantly. Either it requires wand-type magic he's not qualified to perform, or - more likely - it's a tricky situation given the malleability of the tissue. (This isn't to say it wasn't treated at all. He might have simply required a few days or hours for it to heal fully, or the nerve regeneration process might have been painful enough in itself to cause a limp.)>> "She cleaned the cut with a dab of some purple liquid that smoked and stung, but then poked his shoulder with her wand, and he felt it heal instantly."(GOF, American Edition, Hardback, page 357) Well, apparently cuts -can- be healed instantly(I recall this mentioned in PoA too..). I would guess that Snape didn't know how to do it and didn't want to ask Madam Pomfrey. So, he turns to Filch(I suppose he trusts him?) to fix him, and Filch not being trained in medicine could only bandage the leg. Or, for those that believe Dumbledore pulls the string, perhaps the Headmaster asked Snape to leave his leg that way, just to tug at Harry's suspicion and curiosity... :) Also... "One side of Cedric's face was covered in a thick orange paste, which was preumably mending his burn."(GOF) Well, since we don't hear anything about all the females of Hogwarts being disapointed at Cedric's disfigurement from burn marks on his face, then I would assume that the orange paste(and Madam Pomfrey) did it's stuff and there were NO MARKS left behind. I think there are some remarks in canon(too tired to try and remember where that is exactly) about Charlie Weasley having burn marks that were physically visible- I would venture that these were either more serious or not treated properly(and I'm betting on the second). So, I'm thinking, the Wizards can handle soft tissue. IF they know what they're doing. Madam Pomfrey is the school nurse, so she obviously does. I wouldn't expect an ordinary high school graduate to know how to medically treat a burn or a ripped up leg- which is why Snape can't treat himself. But Madam Pomfrey, whom I would assume has had training for her position(she had to have learned it all somehwere), does know, so she can treat such injuries perfectly. ~Aldrea, going off to find some sleep... From kkearney at students.miami.edu Fri Jun 13 04:58:34 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 04:58:34 -0000 Subject: The Hidden Key to Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60244 Bob Hutch wrote: > Has anyone read the this book by John Granger? > > The book presents the author's theory that J.K. Rowling is an > Inklings author, that is a Christian novelist in the mold of C.S. > Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien. > The book presents complying evidence from each of the first four > books and presents the suthor's predictions for the next three books. > > I am sure fans who have read the book have some strong opinions > about the author's theory. I haven't read the book, so I'm not too familiar with this argument. However, I'd tend to disagree. Not that there aren't themes in the series that agree with Christian beliefs; there certainly are. However, I think Granger is placing intent where there was none. Both Tolkien and Lewis were very religious men; Lewis wrote extensively on Christianity, and Tolkien's Catholic beliefs strongly influenced his mythology. Rowling, on the other hand, writes to entertain. Her books contain strong moral themes, but these themes could be equally applicable to many religions other than Christianity. And unlike Tolkien and Lewis, I doubt she conciously contructed the story to parallel a religion. Just my thoughts. -Corinth P.S. Does the term "Inklings" now apply to all Christian novelists? I thought this term only refered to that specific group of academics at Oxford (including Tolkien and Lewis). From distractedone at comcast.net Fri Jun 13 05:23:22 2003 From: distractedone at comcast.net (Merlin) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 01:23:22 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] my *one* rock solid OoP prediction References: <1dd.b94a812.2c19de68@aol.com> Message-ID: <036501c3316b$e8e8d2e0$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60245 Merlin: >> Lupin burst into the room in a flash of red sparks, the color of a true >> Gryffindor(AKA heir of Godric). >> > whoa, hold on here -- in GoF, the Champions were told to send up red sparks > if they got in trouble in the maze and needed to be rescued, and only one of > the Champions was a Gryffindor, so red sparks can't be confined to Gryffindors, > or the Heir of Griffindor, only. Also, in PS/SS, Hagrid told the kids (who > were in the Forbidden Forest on detention) to send up green sparks if they found > the unicorn, red sparks if they were in trouble (I think I got those in the > right order), and this group of students included a Slytherin (Malfoy) so a > "flash of red sparks" doesn't signify someone being the Heir of Gryffindor, or > even from Gryffindor house, IMO. The examples you give though are of them conciously sending certain color sparks out. When Lupin bursts into the room, I doubt seriously that he made a concious decision to use red sparks. > As for the switching spell, where James took over Remus's body -- if this > really happened, where's Remus? Did he die at the Potters' house in James' > place? Why would James leave his family? And since Voldie can see through > deception (apparently, many examples of which were given in a recent post), wouldn't > he see that the "James" he killed was not the real James Potter? He believes > he killed James Potter -- he told Harry so in GoF (he told Harry to "stand up > and die like a man, like your father" -- something like that, I don't have the > book handy) I don't think this "body switch" happened at all -- it doesn't > seem logical -- or logistically possible -- to me. JMO. As this prediction is my opinion also, but if you read deeper into the clues left by J.K. Rowlings I think the fact that at least James is alive is apparent. As for what happened to Remus well as Sirius tells Rat fink when Peter says that Voldemort would have killed him, "then you should have died just as we would have died for you." I think that the Potter bloodline is very important, and I think that the three trustworthy marauders and Lily went to extreme lengths to preserve James and Harry. As for Voldemort realizing he hadn't killed the real James Potter, I don't think he could have known since the person he killed was in the real James' body. MR. Olivander did say that Lily's wand was excellent for charms. Merlin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Fri Jun 13 05:44:52 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 05:44:52 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: OoTP clip - driving me crazy! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60246 Hey Brooke: >-I think the Ministry hearing that Hermione is referring to is a >hearing for Sirius. I think he may have been seen/caught and the >dementors tried to perform the kiss on Sirius, but Harry used all >means to rescue him, which may have involved a more dangerous or even >illegal spell than the patronus charm > Could be. :-) Could be any one of a number of things. >-the room Harry goes into has twin beds in it. JKR did not put that >description in there for nothing. i think someone has or had a >sibling that we don't know about yet! could those beds have belonged >to Lily and Petunia? Or could this be the Riddle House - did >Voldemort have a sibling (or half sibling) in his youth that we are >as yet unaware of! (**HP sleuths out there that have read galadriel >waters' guide - could Remus have had a brother (James?) remember the >story of Remus & Romulus?) I am SO intrigued by these twin beds! > >-the doorknob is shaped like a serpent's head. this house is clearly >tied to Voldemort or Slytherin, but i am still trying to figure out >how! > I think the doorknobs and the twin beds are totally fascinating. It could just be that the twin beds (yes, they're twin beds in a single room - they don't necessarily have to mean anything - I was raised as an only child, much the youngest of my generation, and furniture stores just sold twin beds as sets - I had one for my stuffed animals "and a guest") are just part of the furnishings. I think it could be Snape's house - that would be interesting - but I think it would be really fascinating if it were the Riddle House. I think that whatever "it" is is likely to be a secret conclave of the Order of the Phoenix and Molly and Arthur Weasley are definitely part of it - and I think it might be the Riddle House because it would be one of those wonderfully devious "right under his nose" kinds of things - the last place Voldemort would think to look sorts of things. In either case, I think the serpent doorknobs are likely to be extremely significant. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From drdara at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 05:53:32 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 22:53:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Peter knows In-Reply-To: <20030612232522.34056.qmail@web41307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030613055332.54613.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60247 Scabbers loses pet definition at the end of POA not GOF. Unless you count that in GOF he is Volemort's pet slave. Danielle --- Kirsten Gilson wrote: > > :) Am I losing it, or isn't Scabbers nolonger a > pet > > by GoF? Don't confuse me like that! ;) > > > > He's no longer a pet by the END of GoF, but he > definitely is for 3/4 of the book. > > Kirsten > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to > Outlook(TM). > http://calendar.yahoo.com > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From LeiaOS at aol.com Fri Jun 13 06:00:19 2003 From: LeiaOS at aol.com (LeiaOS at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 02:00:19 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: OoTP clip - driving me crazy! Message-ID: <19a.16513347.2c1ac273@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60248 BOOK FIVE SPOILERS In a message dated 6/13/2003 12:46:06 AM Central Standard Time, jestahijinx at hotmail.com writes: > I think it could be Snape's house - that would be interesting - but I think > > it would be really fascinating if it were the Riddle House. I think that > whatever "it" is is likely to be a secret conclave of the Order of the > Phoenix and Molly and Arthur Weasley are definitely part of it - and I think > > it might be the Riddle House because it would be one of those wonderfully > devious "right under his nose" kinds of things - the last place Voldemort > would think to look sorts of things. > I think it'd be fascinating if the Order was meeting at Snape's house. How odd would that be? Later you mentioned that you thought the serpent handles were significant and I tend to agree. However, this is such a short clip, it's hard to really tell anything about it. Is it supposed to be real or is it one of Harry's dreams? If it's real, I'd tend to believe that the two most likely bets are Snape's house or Riddle's, however if it's a dream it could stand for anything. Even if it's a dream here, though, it's very likely we'll see the actual house at some point towards the end of the book. Whomever owns it. I'm so glad I've got things to keep me busy for the next eight days or I'd go mental! ~Sabrina~ Livejournal: http://sabrinanymph.livejournal.com/ Fanfic: http://www.geociities.com/sabrinanymph/writersink/ Webpage: http://www.geocities.com/sabrinanymph/ Hogwarts by Moonlight: http://www.geocities.com/hogwartsbymoonlight/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Fri Jun 13 06:37:32 2003 From: vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia=20Chrysshallie?=) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 18:37:32 +1200 (NZST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030613063732.17804.qmail@web41209.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60249 --- "Cindy C." wrote: --------------------------------- Now that June 21 is just around the corner (Wow! -- We'll be reading OoP next weekend!), maybe it's time to get *serious* here ... -- time for anyone who's willing to stand on just one OoP prediction to step forward. Vinnia: My prediction is that something big will happpen on Halloween. It will have a big impact on Harry's life, or at least will be very important to the plot. So we'll most probably hear about the Order of the phoenix on this day. Either that, or Voldemort will launch his first attack on HAlloween... Base for this? Halloween 1981 : Voldemort killed the Potters, and Harry has to live with the Dursley. PS/SS : The trio begin suspecting that Snape is trying to go for the stone. If they didn't, Harry would not go after him, hence no story. CoS : first attack happened on HAlloween PoA : Sirius attack the fat lady, allowing the painting to be replaced by Sir CAdogan. He let Sirius enter later in the book (I doubt the fat lady would have done this, even with a password). GoF : Harry's name comes out of the goblet. Not so great prediction, compared with what some of you had come up with... I definitely would not get an A from Trelawney :) Vinnia http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From lilymaid_0 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 13 02:34:45 2003 From: lilymaid_0 at hotmail.com (lilymaid_9) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 02:34:45 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60250 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David" wrote: > Cindy wrote: > > > Now that June 21 is just around the corner (Wow! -- We'll be > reading > > OoP next weekend!), maybe it's time to get *serious* here. No > more > > having a whole bunch of vague predictions to your name. Maybe > it's > > time for a gut-check -- time for anyone who's willing to stand on > > just one OoP prediction to step forward. > > > > And not just any old prediction, either. Let's say you only get > to > > make *one* prediction. > After all this wondrous prediction-making, I was lying in bed last night thinking about the imminent death. And it came to me... NEVILLE. I don't know how, I don't know why, but I'm sure that he will be the OotP death. Lots of names have been thrown around so far, but I don't think Neville has been seriously considered. Fiona, who is very proud of herself for emerging from lurkerdom. From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Fri Jun 13 02:56:47 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:56:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Reattaching Limbs References: <01e301c33157$013879a0$38560043@hppav> Message-ID: <3EE93D6F.20004@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60251 Eric Oppen wrote: > Another difference that AFAIK hasn't been suggested yet is that Harry and > the girl who cursed off her nose are still growing, which might make all the > difference. > > Mad-Eye, OTOH, was fully grown when he lost his parts, so possibly they > couldn't re-attach them. > Or he lost them due to spells that leave magic residue in the tissues that make the curse wounds untreatable. Otherwise, someone would have been able to remove Harry's scar. I think severe curse scars/wounds cannot be magically healed for whatever reason. Jazmyn From hollydaze at btinternet.com Fri Jun 13 06:47:37 2003 From: hollydaze at btinternet.com (Hollydaze) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 07:47:37 +0100 Subject: All Jim Dale's voices References: Message-ID: <003c01c33177$ae353e20$f2c78351@j0dhe> No: HPFGUIDX 60252 danielle dassero wrote: > I listen to the audio books while I work. The ones you might have missed > include Charlie immitating his mother: "I thought they were all safe!" (GoF) > There are a couple of occassions where the characters mimic other > characters. Perhaps they are supposed to count toward 184. I know they sound > different on the recordings. I don't know if this was a reply to me so I'm replying anyway and if not sorry ;) I haven't missed any in book 4 as far as I know as I have the full 125 that are mentioned as being in book 4. Of course if they've miss counted then yes I've missed some but according to the "official" figure that's the right number. Charlie imitating Molly would be Molly's voice surely though? (I wouldn't know, see below) It's books 1, 2 and 3 that I might be missing some from so if anyone has an interview or news article that says the figures for those tapes too, I'd be most grateful. Also as I don't have the American audio books (I have the British ones) I have to go by different characters in the books and as all the speech that's in the books for the different characters fits with 125, that would seem to be them. One further thing, where did 184 come from? Is this a miss type or is there something I haven't found? ;) There are 125 voices in GoF and 134 in OoP. HOLLYDAZE!!! "No one's going to try and kill you until we've sorted a few things out," said Lupin. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From happydogue at aol.com Fri Jun 13 03:47:08 2003 From: happydogue at aol.com (happydogue at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 23:47:08 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Names Message-ID: <1e5.af26b65.2c1aa33c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60253 That was a big hint when Moody/Crouch was speaking with Harry in then end of the GoF. He referred to "v" as the dark lord. At that point you knew that something was wrong. J From j.oramous at verizon.net Fri Jun 13 05:51:41 2003 From: j.oramous at verizon.net (Jenn) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 00:51:41 -0500 Subject: Peter knows In-Reply-To: <1055460684.23551.12163.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60254 > :) Am I losing it, or isn't Scabbers nolonger a pet > by GoF? Don't confuse me like that! ;) > >He's no longer a pet by the END of GoF, >but he >definitely is for 3/4 of the book. >Kirsten Uh....guys, I do believe you are speaking of POA and not GoF because in GOF Peter is with LV the whole book. I'm pretty sure. I don't have my books with me. But Peter escapes at the end of POA. As for Peter/Scabbers knowing where Harry is on Privet Drive, I am assuming that we are assuming that a secret keeper was put into place. However, that would have had to had been broken when it was time for Harry to enter Hogwarts. Right? I mean if Mrs. Figg was Harry's secret keeper then no one would know where he was _except_ her, right? So even McGonagall or the Quill would be able to address the letter to him because no one would know where he was. Jenn _who is sorry if this rambled but she can't sleep because the day is almost here! From gypseelynn at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 06:05:33 2003 From: gypseelynn at yahoo.com (Rebecca Sylvester) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 23:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Peter knows In-Reply-To: <20030612232522.34056.qmail@web41307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030613060533.57700.qmail@web41507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60255 Kirsten Gilson wrote: > :) Am I losing it, or isn't Scabbers nolonger a pet > by GoF? Don't confuse me like that! ;) > He's no longer a pet by the END of GoF, but he definitely is for 3/4 of the book. Kirsten Ok, now I'm confused. How is Peter possible still a pet in GoF?? After it's in PoA that they find out that "scabbers" isn't scabbers, and he flees into the forest. So, if that's true, how can he be back as a pet for GoF? Please explain. Thanks!!! Beckah __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Fri Jun 13 07:06:01 2003 From: vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia=20Chrysshallie?=) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 19:06:01 +1200 (NZST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP Spoiler: Amazon Audio Discussion and Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030613070601.41796.qmail@web41201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60256 --- pickle_jimmy wrote: --------------------------------- Please dont read this if you dont want to know anything about what is in the audio grab of book five on amazon.com . . . . . . . ----------- BOOK 5 SPOLIER ALERT --------------- . . . . . . Under whose care has Harry been for the last month that would have needed this kind of mail censorship? Vinnia: Well, it could be that Harry is not supposed to know about whatever it is yet. pickle_jimmy : Are we jumping to conclusions thinking that Harry summoned a Patronus to protect himself from the dementors? Vinnia: What if it's to protect the Dursley? The dementors could be trying to kiss Petunia/Vernon/Dudley. This is a good opening to finding out more about the Dursley, things that people do not expect. pickle_jimmy : The location of the scene is an old house that appears as though it could have belonged to a wizard(s) that were not on the side of good (sorry if this is convoluted - I am trying to not quote the audio grab) - even down to the snake motif doorknob. Vinnia : Not necessarily. Houses, expecially those big old ones, if haven't been look after, would have an eerie feeling. I wonder...could it be Godric Hollow? It's been deserted for 14 years. Or maybe the Evans Manor? Or even Slytherin Manor? pickle_jimmy : What are Ron, Hermione, and Mrs Weasley doing there? Why have they taken (summoned/brought) Harry there? Vinnia : They are in hiding? Just my opinion... Vinnia who would love to think about the other question pickle_jimmy posted, but the more she thinks about it, the more she wants to read OOP **right NOW**! http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From MKELLER at SUNLINK.NET Fri Jun 13 08:12:44 2003 From: MKELLER at SUNLINK.NET (jksunflower2002) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:12:44 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60257 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lilymaid_9" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David" > wrote: > > Cindy wrote: > > > > > Now that June 21 is just around the corner (Wow! -- We'll be > > reading > > > OoP next weekend!), maybe it's time to get *serious* here. No > > more > > > having a whole bunch of vague predictions to your name. Maybe > > it's > > > time for a gut-check -- time for anyone who's willing to stand on > > > just one OoP prediction to step forward. > > > > > > And not just any old prediction, either. Let's say you only get > > to > > > make *one* prediction. Ok, well I'm making two predictions because they're so light: We'll find out all about the Bloody Baron and there will not be a Weasley death. That's all I got. Toad (who doesn't have the rocks to predict anything more solid.) From enjoeyment at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 01:38:11 2003 From: enjoeyment at yahoo.com (Valerie) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 01:38:11 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60258 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "animagikat" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "katien0w" wrote: > > katien0w (me): > > I'm a newbie here and this is is my first post, so I hope it's valid > > > > In chapter thirty-six: The Parting of the Ways, (Page 616 in UK > > paperback) Snape refers to LV as "the Dark Lord". > > > > "Every Death Eater had the sign burnt into him by the Dark Lord." > > > > I wonder if this is significant to where his real loyalties lie. > > > > katien0w > > What I find interesting is that in ss/ps, page 11, AD refers to > Voldemort as "his proper name". Why would he saw that when it's > oviously not? > > Animagikat I'm pretty much presuming, but I think Dumbledore would rather people refer to him as Voldemort because everyone was so afraid of the name. It's much easier to stand up against someone that you can quantify with a name, instead of scary, there's-a-monster-under-your- bed attributes like He Who Must Not Be Named and The Dark Lord. Valerie From tish9774 at grics.net Fri Jun 13 04:03:13 2003 From: tish9774 at grics.net (tish ) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 04:03:13 -0000 Subject: Professor Binns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60259 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: > On Thu, 12 Jun 2003 Kadoo96801 at a... wrote: > > > Now I have doubt that Binns actually died in the staff room fire! > Patricia: > My impression was that Binns died *in front of* the staff room fire, not > *in* a fire. I pictured him nodding off in a big upholstered arm chair, > positioned near enough to the fireplace to get pleasantly warm but not > burned, and then dying peacefully in his sleep. Could you explain what > makes you think he was burned to death? I don't have the book in front of > me, but I don't remember anything like that. Can't agree more! I also thought of Binns falling asleep in a big arm chair and never waking up. I NEVER got the impression that he died IN the fire. The book reads that "He was very old indeed when he had fallen asleep in front of the staff room fire and got up the next morning to teach, leaving his body behind him." My *theory* as to why some people become ghosts was sent down the toilet with Binns. I thought that maybe people who were murdered (Moaning Myrtle, Nearly-Headless Nick, Bloody Baron) were able to come back as ghosts. That is why everyone was able to come out of LV's wand in GoF. Just a thought! Tish From rshamim at princeton.edu Fri Jun 13 07:16:24 2003 From: rshamim at princeton.edu (Rehan Shamim) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 07:16:24 -0000 Subject: My *One* Most Rock-Solid OoP Prediction In-Reply-To: <02a301c3315f$53cca300$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60260 OK everybody, I am coming out of the Land of the Lurkers to offer my one Rock-Solid prediction for OoP. The only problem is that I'm 99% sure it won't happen. I'm choosing it as my Rock-Solid prediction because I have nothing to lose. If it turns out to be true, I will be shocked. But hey, it's all in the name of fun anyway, right? *Grins nervously* My prediction is that the Order of the Phoenix is a group of wizards. BUT, the order is comprised solely of Dark Wizards (mostly Death Eaters), and Voldemort is the head of this order. How does one gain membership into the Order of the Phoenix? Quite simply, they must rise from the dead. We have already seen Voldemort do so, in the Graveyard scene of GoF. Technically, Voldemort was not dead, but for the sake of my argument I am proposing that in his Ugly-Baby form he was as good as dead. He needed Pettigrew to take care of him, and it was pretty clear that he was unable to survive on his own. How does JKR describe Fawkes in CoS just before his rebirth? Fawkes was a "decrepit-looking bird that resembled a half-plucked turkey." (CoS, Chapter 12, Page 206 US Edition). Similarly, just before Voldemort's rebirth, JKR describes him as "hairless and scaly- looking, a dark, raw, reddish black. It's arms and legs were thin and feeble, and its face...flat and snakelike...The thing seemed almost helpless." (GoF, Chapter 32, Pages 640-641 US Edition) There are some similarities between the descriptions of Fawkes and Voldemort, noticeably the lack of feathers/hair and the appearance of being very weak. Yet, both Fawkes and Voldemort rise from this weakened state to a new, powerfully-magical body. I think that Voldemort will find the bodies of all the Death Eaters who died in his service 14 years ago. After all, these are, in his estimation, the most loyal servants he had, and he will want them back in his army. He will convert the bodies of Rosier, Wilkes, and whichever other DEs into their Ugly-Baby forms. Then, he'll put the Ugly-Babies into a potion like the one he made for himself, using the bones of their fathers, the blood of an enemy, and the flesh of a servant (not sure exactly who the servant would be - maybe the DEs have some sort of hierarchy system?). This will resurrect them from their own ashes (their own bodies), bringing them back to life as members of the Order of the Phoenix. Dumbledore does say that "no spell can reawaken the dead," (GoF, Chapter 36, Page 697 US Edition) but as any L.O.O.N. will tell you, the method Voldemort used is NOT a spell. He describes it himself as "an old piece of Dark Magic, the POTION (my emphasis) that revived me tonight." (GoF, Chapter 33, Page 656) Since it is an "old" piece of Dark Magic, it seems unlikely that it was created for the sole purpose of restoring someone who was existing in Vapor/Ugly-Baby form to his body. More likely, it was a potion used to resurrect the dead. So there you go. There's my crazy prediction. Besides the obvious implications of bringing dead DEs back to life, Harry will also have to fight the urge to bring back his parents using this method. He can do what is easy (give in and embrace this Dark Art so he can be with his parents) or what is right (accept that his commitment to the Forces of Good means that he has no way of seeing his parents alive). This second part is more of a corollary to the main prediction than part of the prediction itself. Let me know what you all think; I look forward to discussing it for about 7-8 days! Rehan From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Jun 13 09:23:52 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:23:52 -0000 Subject: Your One Biggest *Hope* for OOP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60261 derannimer asked: > Okay, so here's a question. We've all been talking a fair bit about our one rock-solid > OOP prediction; what do people most *hope* will happen in OOP? I mean, *one* > hope? Apart from my Vernon/Molly SHIP coming in? I guess I'd like to see the house system criticised or undermined in some way. Shown to be relative or imperfect or just irrelevant to adult life. David, surprised nobody has hoped that Hagrid will plunge from a rickety catwalk into a river of molten lava (and emerge triumphantly clutching a Salamander: "Yeh just can' buy these for love or money, Harry") From lennyb2002 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 07:57:57 2003 From: lennyb2002 at yahoo.com (lennyb2002) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 07:57:57 -0000 Subject: Chapter 14 GF, weird? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60262 Chap. 14 ends with a bizare paragraph for a bizare chapter: "He heard Ron come up into the dormitory a short while later, but did not speak to him. For a long time, Harry lay staring up at the dark canopy of his bed. The dormitory was completely silent, and, had he been less preoccupied, Harry would have realized that the absence of Neville's usual snores meant that he was not the only one lying awake." So, does the unknown narrator often highlight something Harry is oblivious to? Is the narrator sympathizing for Neville, or perhaps suggesting that Harry is missing an important clue? Thanks lennyb From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Fri Jun 13 08:44:37 2003 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:44:37 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] phoenix + empress References: <20030613021802.58915.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3EE98EF5.6040800@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60263 Petra Pan wrote: > > In Chinese mythology, dragon and the > phoenix often exist as a pair. The dragon > symbolizes all things yang (the energy > usually associated with the male) while > the phoenix symbolizes all thing yin > (the energy usually associated with the > female) when used to represent any > metaphors involving two contrasting > and/or complementary entities. > So would that mean that Harry, being a toss-up between a slytherin (dragon/snake) and a griffindor (phoenix), according to the Sorting Hat, is a perfect blend of Yin and Yang? Sounds like thats good news for our Teenage Eternal Hero. digger From katie at n0w.co.uk Fri Jun 13 08:49:49 2003 From: katie at n0w.co.uk (katien0w) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:49:49 -0000 Subject: Professor Binns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60264 wrote: > Can't agree more! I also thought of Binns falling asleep in a big > arm chair and never waking up. I NEVER got the impression that he > died IN the fire. The book reads that "He was very old indeed when > he had fallen asleep in front of the staff room fire and got up the > next morning to teach, leaving his body behind him." > > My *theory* as to why some people become ghosts was sent down the > toilet with Binns. I thought that maybe people who were murdered > (Moaning Myrtle, Nearly-Headless Nick, Bloody Baron) were able to > come back as ghosts. That is why everyone was able to come out of > LV's wand in GoF. katien0w (me): A few things to add here. If murdered people become ghosts, does that mean that Lily and James are ghost somewhere in the Wizarding World? I, for some reason, always thought that unhappy people become ghosts: Moaning Myrtle was teased, Nearly-Headless Nick wasn't completely decapitated, although I'm not sure about the Bloody Baron right now. If my theory is correct, then for James and Lily to *not* have returned as ghost, they must have been happy. However, I am beginning to contradict myself because IIRC, James and Lily knew that Voldemort was after them, so how could they be happy? Knowing the Darkest Wizard for centuries(?) wants to kill you is not exactly going to make you happy. Maybe, whether you become a ghost or not depends on your entire life, rather than you emotional state in death. This would explain Myrtle being unhappy, and Lily and James being happy. As I don't have the books with me, and I can't remember, I can only wonder why Nick wasn't happy, and also why he was semi-beheaded. As for the the Bloody Baron and other ghosts, we have not yet heard enough about them to know why they are ghosts. Also, ghosts did *not* come out of LV's wand in GoF, they were *echoes* (Quote Dumbledore IIRC). Well instead of clarifying this, I seem to have confused myself even more :S 7days and 14 hours to go I need the book now!! katien0w From katie at n0w.co.uk Fri Jun 13 08:28:46 2003 From: katie at n0w.co.uk (katien0w) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:28:46 -0000 Subject: OOP: OoTP clip - driving me crazy! In-Reply-To: <19a.16513347.2c1ac273@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60265 LeiaOS at a... wrote: katien0w (me): Having read your post, I began to think about Voldemort occupying the Riddle house. IIRC, he is only there a few months, until the QWC is over, and he can *act*. If so, why would he fit or conjure serpent motifs onto the door knobs? They surely cannot have been there previously, as the Riddles had no connection with Slytherin, it was Voldemort's mother who was a descendant of Salazar Slytherin. Considering this, I feel it is unlikely that the house is in fact the Riddle residence. I am leaning slightly towards Snape's house. I guess we'll find out in 7days and 14 hours. I shall be reading the book the second it is released, due to a special Mind Sports Olympiad event in Manchester :D katien0w From blaisezz at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 13 10:52:43 2003 From: blaisezz at yahoo.co.uk (blaisezz) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:52:43 -0000 Subject: Chapter 14 GF, weird? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60266 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lennyb2002" wrote: > Chap. 14 ends with a bizare paragraph for a bizare chapter: > > > "He heard Ron come up into the dormitory a short while later, but did > not speak to him. For a long time, Harry lay staring up at the dark > canopy of his bed. The dormitory was completely silent, and, had he > been less preoccupied, Harry would have realized that the absence of > Neville's usual snores meant that he was not the only one lying > awake." > > > > So, does the unknown narrator often highlight something Harry is > oblivious to? Is the narrator sympathizing for Neville, or perhaps > suggesting that Harry is missing an important clue? > I always assumed this was to alert our attention to the fact that Neville had obviously been very affected by Moody's lesson, having seen the curse that as good as killed his parents. I think JKR was just showing how Voldemort has had such a bad effect on everyone's lives, not just Harry's. vicky From rayheuer3 at aol.com Fri Jun 13 11:44:03 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 07:44:03 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Professor Binns Message-ID: <126.2b822d85.2c1b1303@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60267 tish9774 at grics.net writes: > My *theory* as to why some people become ghosts was sent down the > toilet with Binns. I thought that maybe people who were murdered > (Moaning Myrtle, Nearly-Headless Nick, Bloody Baron) were able to > come back as ghosts. That is why everyone was able to come out of > LV's wand in GoF. The general theory I've seen for the creation of ghosts is that they left something "unfinished". This is true of almost all people who die violently. It may be something as obvious as vengeance, or seeing their killer brought to justice, or as warm as seeing a child grow up safely, as simple as "I haven't finished school yet", or as banal as "I have classes to teach". But it seems that in the WW world, or at least in Hogwarts, nobody feels the need to help ghosts "move on". Similarly, Hogwarts ghosts seem totally comfortable with their existence *as ghosts* and may feel no need to "move on". Take Moaning Myrtle, as an example. The circumstances of her death have been revealed, the basilisk is dead, and a form of vengeance has been exacted on Tom Riddle/Voldemort. Yet Myrtle is still happily (unhappily?) haunting her toilet. About the only thing that she might be missing now is a Hogwarts diploma. But in the 50 years she's been haunting that toilet, nobody has even *tried* to put her spirit to rest. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 13 11:15:06 2003 From: honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com (Sabrina) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:15:06 +0200 Subject: What's in Sirius' Vault at Gringott's? References: <1055460684.23551.12163.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60268 Felinia wrote: > We had the big Gringotts' discussion before, but for new people: I maintain > that Gringotts' and the goblins run the bank very much like Switzerland - > numbered bank accounts or the equivalent, and nobody's too much of a baddie > not to have their money kept there. Voldemort may well have an account; > I'll bet some of the better-off giants and hags do; and probably Sirius > Black kept his account there and no one was allowed to track or tamper with > it, for good or ill. It's a different principle than currently in our > country, where the IRS and other agencies are allowed to mess if there's > suspicion of ill-gotten gains - but consider that the goblins are something > of a nation unto themselves, as they're shown; and if they're iron-clad > honest and protect their investors' assets and haven't made a mistake in > centuries, then everyone is probably quite happy with the status quo. Who > knows? Maybe some of Voldemort's assets are actually invested for good > causes without his knowledge. :-) > > Felinia > Actually, I have always had a problem with the goblins running the only wizarding bank (p.63 SSpb). In History of Magic we hear over and over again about Goblin rebellions all over the place. Who would put basically their whole economy in the hands of people (beasts?) who are perhaps only waiting for a way to overthrow the current government? Granted, we don't know what kind of arrangement the goblins have with the wizarding world (peace treaties etc.) but still I think it is quite risky. Any thoughts? Sabrina From honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 13 11:16:34 2003 From: honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com (Sabrina) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:16:34 +0200 Subject: Voldemort's Names References: <1055473258.5625.78513.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60269 > What I find interesting is that in ss/ps, page 11, AD refers to > Voldemort as "his proper name". Why would he saw that when it's > oviously not? > > Animagikat Linda(Me): I always thought that Dumbledore considers Voldemort to be his true name because Tom Riddle went through so many "magical transformations" that there is really nothing of Riddle left. All that is left is Voldemort. Even Hagrid thinks that "there was not enough human left in him to die". Just my two knuts, Linda And additionally, I can understand if you constantly hear somebody say You-Know-Who-this and He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named-that, especially if she is a close friend of yours (as I assumes McGonagall is) and you think of her as brave and intelligent that it can get on your nerves quite a bit. I know I have always wondered why some people used HWMNBN (please, don't make me type it again! *g*) instead of You-Know-Who which is much easier and faster to say which actually led to this post in the first place. And I just another look my notes about the names and had an idea: What if many different uses of Voldemort's name by one person show a certain ambivalence toward him? My canon example for this is: Crouch Sr. In the beginning (pensieve scene) he certainly was against Voldemort and still he freed his Death Eater son out of Azkaban, knowing this was a security risk. And he calls Voldemort by the names Dark Lord, Lord Voldemort and HWMNBN, according to my theory names very different kind of people would use (Death Eater [associate], opponent of Voldemort and somebody who is very frightened of him). And in canon Crouch is a gray character, not really on either side. Pettigrew is another one of those characters who uses a varity of names: Dark Lord, Voldemort and HWMNBN. IMO that could show that not everything about him is as clear cut as it seems to be. Sure, he was a good guy in the beginning and then turned but IMO that doesn't really qualify for gray. Therefore I think his role in the books will probably change again (my bet: life debt which I think had already an influence on his behaviour in GoF where he wanted to convince Voldemort to kidnap somebody other than Harry [Ch. 1]). Sabrina From leef at comcast.net Fri Jun 13 12:07:23 2003 From: leef at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:07:23 -0000 Subject: Chapter 14 GF, weird? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60270 > I always assumed this was to alert our attention to the fact that > Neville had obviously been very affected by Moody's lesson, having > seen the curse that as good as killed his parents. I think JKR was > just showing how Voldemort has had such a bad effect on everyone's > lives, not just Harry's. > > vicky I could have sworn there was some discussion on this topic before but can't find it (get lost in libraries too). When I first read GoF I also thought it was just being affected by Moody's lesson. But after the third read (or so) one has to note that "Moody" is in fact BC2 and that does give pause. pause. On the other hand, BC2 is one excellent actor to pull off the Moody thing for a whole school year, not to mention that polyjuice is not the tastiest concoction to be taking 24 times a day throughout that duration! But back to Neville: I have suspected that there will be a link to Neville's being awake at the end of chapter 14 in future books. Whether for good or evil is hard to say. MarEphraim From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Fri Jun 13 12:29:05 2003 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (edisbevan) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:29:05 -0000 Subject: my *one* rock solid OoP prediction James lives ?? In-Reply-To: <036501c3316b$e8e8d2e0$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60271 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Merlin wrote >if you read deeper into the clues left by J.K. Rowlings I think the >fact that at least James is alive is apparent. In GOF the Priori Incantatem spell would seem to be Canon against this though... James' ghost appears to Harry after all. Edis From MadameSSnape at aol.com Fri Jun 13 12:30:55 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:30:55 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Names Message-ID: <124.22d9e8a5.2c1b1dff@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60272 In a message dated 6/13/2003 8:01:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com writes: > >What I find interesting is that in ss/ps, page 11, AD refers to > >Voldemort as "his proper name". Why would he saw that when it's > >oviously not? > > > >Animagikat > > Linda(Me): > I always thought that Dumbledore considers Voldemort to be > his true name because Tom Riddle went through so many "magical > transformations" that there is really nothing of Riddle left. All > that is left is Voldemort. Even Hagrid thinks that "there was not > enough human left in him to die". > > Just my two knuts, Linda > > > And additionally, I can understand if you constantly hear somebody say > You-Know-Who-this and He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named-that, especially if she is a > close friend of yours (as I assumes McGonagall is) and you think of her as > brave and intelligent that it can get on your nerves quite a bit. As for McGonagall - she's a contemporary of Riddle, perhaps knew him in school. Perhaps he's not yet ready to reveal to her that her old schoolmate is the Evillest Wizard... Sherrie (who is NOT a TR/MM shipper) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Fri Jun 13 12:35:01 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 14:35:01 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New Eye Theorem References: Message-ID: <007201c331a8$36911390$0152253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 60273 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chuck" > wrote: > > > > > JKR may literally mean that Harry has his mom's eyes. > > > > Ten bucks says Lily switched eyes with Harry. > > > Me (izaskun) Well, there's certainly more in Harry's eyes, but I don't think Lilly switched eyes with him, because if it were so, he wouldn't need glasses. The short-sighed one is James, not Lilly. Cheers, Izaskun From ggershman77 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 12:50:17 2003 From: ggershman77 at yahoo.com (ggershman77) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:50:17 -0000 Subject: The Hidden Key to Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60274 I havent read the book, only an excerpt from Chapter 2, and I found some of his points compelling, but overall I thought he was pushing the Chrisitianity analogy a bit much. The books are definetly deeper than they first appear (check out http://hpprogs.blogspot.com/, my site). But I think Rowling is talking a more general moral sense, rather than a specific religious sense. That being said, his book does have some good analysis of stuff from the books. My personal favorite is his understanding (and this is spot on, no question) that when Harry and Ron discuss the diary (from CoS), Ron's arguments that books can be dangerous, and all the examples he gives of deadly books, is a parody of Rowlings critics who say her books will cause children to take up the occult. Harry, of course, is more curious than that, and dives right in. If you look for the publisher's site (www.zossima.com) you can find an excerpt. Greg --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Bob Hutch" wrote: > Has anyone read the this book by John Granger? > > The book presents the author's theory that J.K. Rowling is an > Inklings author, that is a Christian novelist in the mold of C.S. > Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien. > The book presents complying evidence from each of the first four > books and presents the suthor's predictions for the next three books. > > I am sure fans who have read the book have some strong opinions > about the author's theory. > > Any thoughts? > > Bob Hutch From ggershman77 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 12:54:58 2003 From: ggershman77 at yahoo.com (ggershman77) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:54:58 -0000 Subject: Chapter 14 GF, weird? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60275 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lennyb2002" wrote: > Chap. 14 ends with a bizare paragraph for a bizare chapter: > > > "He heard Ron come up into the dormitory a short while later, but did > not speak to him. For a long time, Harry lay staring up at the dark > canopy of his bed. The dormitory was completely silent, and, had he > been less preoccupied, Harry would have realized that the absence of > Neville's usual snores meant that he was not the only one lying > awake." > > > > So, does the unknown narrator often highlight something Harry is > oblivious to? Is the narrator sympathizing for Neville, or perhaps > suggesting that Harry is missing an important clue? > This also points out Harry's self-centeredness, his pride, which is a main theme of this book. Harry relies too much on himself, not asking others for help. Fake!Moody castigates him for this in the end, telling him he has a streak of pride which almost ruined his whole plan. Harry is in some ways oblivious to others around him, as he is too wrapped up in his own personal agenda. Come to think of it, this may be a better over-arching theme for GoF than my previous idea, which was pride. I will have to reread GoF over the weekend. Gotta get those eye-muscles in training for OotP! Greg From dgagauzov at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 11:23:50 2003 From: dgagauzov at yahoo.com (Dimitar) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:23:50 -0000 Subject: OOP: OoTP clip - driving me crazy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60276 > I think it could be Snape's house - that would be interesting - but I think > it would be really fascinating if it were the Riddle House. I think that > whatever "it" is is likely to be a secret conclave of the Order of the > Phoenix and Molly and Arthur Weasley are definitely part of it - and I think > it might be the Riddle House because it would be one of those wonderfully > devious "right under his nose" kinds of things - the last place Voldemort > would think to look sorts of things. In either case, I think the serpent > doorknobs are likely to be extremely significant. > > Felinia You are forgetting that the Riddles where muggles, it was Voldy's mother who was a witch. There is no reason for the Riddles to have a snake ornaments in their house. Voldy didn't live in the house until GoF, before that the house was under care of Frank Brice ? a muggle. It has to be Snape's house or other good wizard with dark past or family. Dimitar From pennylin at swbell.net Fri Jun 13 13:27:28 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (pennylin) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:27:28 -0500 Subject: The Hidden Key to Harry Potter References: Message-ID: <04e301c331af$89c43180$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 60277 Hi all -- First, before I get to a review of this book, let me say that I had a chance to meet the author and hear him speak on this topic in Houston recently. As some of you may know, Granger will be one of the featured guest speakers at Nimbus - 2003 in Orlando next month (www.hp2003.org). I found him to be a very engaging and entertaining public speaker. He also quite graciously and effectively addressed some conservative Christians in the audience. I think those of you attending Nimbus will find him to be a very interesting speaker. Also, before I get to my review of this book, let me address a point made by corinthum: <<<>>>>>>>>>>>> While I think you are quite right to note that symbols can have a variety of meanings (even conflicting meanings!), I do think you're presuming too much with respect to the authorial intent argument. Rowling has not been explicit about her authorial intent with respect to anything, let alone any religious messages that can be gleaned from the series. It may be your opinion that JKR is only writing to "entertain," but that's not something she herself has confirmed. We do know she believes in God and attends the Church of Scotland more than sporadically according to her own statements. We also know the following (which can be found in full at: http://www.prospect.org/print/V13/4/nelson-m.html <<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, again, I think you're presuming quite alot with your statements about her intent. It may be that Granger is completely off-base with his interpretation of authorial intent, but it *is* more viable than you seem to give him credit for. So, here's a review of "Hidden Key to Harry Potter," which I wrote awhile back and never got around to posting. I've also got a combined review of some other Christian commentaries that I'll try to get finalized and off today too. ********************************** Granger's principal argument is that Rowling is writing explicitly Christian books in the tradition of Inkling greats, C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien. He makes a persuasive case that his is a viable, though not the only possible, interpretation of Rowling's novels. He begins with an exploration of current critical thinking on the Harry Potter novels (though he admits in an appendix that some of the most recent scholarship was unavailable to him), noting that early reactions to Tolkien's work mirror some of the criticism leveled at Rowling by the literary elite. Granger believes that Rowling's writing, with its emphasis on the themes of prejudice, death, choices and change, is also reminiscent of two authors she cites amongst her favorites: Jane Austen and Charles Dickens. In evaluating some of the current critical thinking about Rowling, Granger divides commentators into "low road," "middle road" and "high road" categories. The "low road" critics are those who deride Rowling's work because they believe it is poorly-written, not worth adult or critical attention, derivative, etc. or because they believe it is morally ambiguous or has occultic themes, gratuitous violence, etc. He places those commentators who enthusiastically embrace the series on the grounds that it is well-written, a great read by a gifted storyteller, and/or has memorable characters in the "middle road" category. He says the "middle road" critics fall short in failing to evaluate more closely exactly why the books are such a phenomenon. He agrees that Rowling is a great writer, a gifted storyteller and has given her audience complex and engaging characters, but he argues that these factors are not alone enough to fully explain the unprecedented success of these books. He believes his work goes a step beyond the "middle road" critics. Granger explores in turn each of the four prominent themes he identified in Rowling's work: prejudice, death, choice and change. Aside from her explicit and implicit messages against prejudice and bigotry, Granger believes that Rowling reinforces the messages by forcing readers to confront their tendency to prejudge others with her surprise shifts (good guys become bad guys, bad guys are good guys after all). Rowling's books contain many lessons and thoughts about death, and Rowling effectively allows her readers to experience figurative death and resurrection with Harry in each book. Granger, however, doesn't believe her treatment of prejudice or death/bereavement alone is the key to Pottermania. He evaluates the theme of choices and how Rowling explores that theme in each novel. Harry is on a journey of self-exploration, making choices about who he is and what to do and how to react in situations (particularly crisis situations). It is change, the consequences of our choices, that interests Granger the most though. He believes the series is mostly about "transfigurations, transformations and alchemical transmutations." He gives a lengthy but interesting discourse on alchemy, both historically and symbolically. The alchemical process is symbolic of the route to spiritual perfection, and Granger now gets to the heart of why he believes the series is so overwhelmingly popular. Noting that 8 of the creatures featured in the Potterverse are symbols of Christ, Granger argues that Rowling "either is a Christian author or she has a remarkable fetish for Christian imagery and teaching." He then takes each of the four books in turn to demonstrate Rowling's use of Christian symbolism, resurrection plot lines and moral teachings. In the CoS section, Granger makes a very persuasive and novel case that the real-life model for the character of Gilderoy Lockhart is Philip Pullman, author of the "Dark Materials" trilogy. I found this to be particularly interesting, because it's something I've *never* seen discussed anywhere in the fandom. I also liked his reading of the final climatic scenes in the Chamber as a medieval morality play, with Dumbledore as God the Father, Harry as Everyman, Fawkes as Christ, etc. Following his analysis of Christian symbols, themes and imagery in each book, he includes a short chapter analyzing how each book's title might be symbolic for "Harry Potter and the Christ" (IMO, this is by far his weakest chapter). Granger then looks at possible symbolic meanings for the names Harry and Potter. Emphasizing his belief that Rowling's writing is formulaic, he concludes with a section on his predictions for the remainder of the series (including an analysis of Harry as Heir of Gryffindor, whether Snape is for us or against us, what role Neville will play, whether Wormtail is Harry's "ace in the hole," whether Bagman is good or ESE, who will end up with who and whether Draco is redeemable or not). I don't necessarily agree that Rowling's work is as formulaic as Granger contends, and I also think his predictions have all been raised and discussed extensively by people on this list for ages (i.e., they aren't anything new). But, Granger has told me that he hasn't had any contact with the fandom at large so far, so his theories are his own (though they aren't, IMO, particularly novel in most cases). His book has two appendices: the first is a direct counter to He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named-on-this-List. The second is an analysis of other secondary sources on Harry Potter. Overall, I found this book to be very thought-provoking and engaging. Granger has a very high-energy conversational writing style. The book's messages probably won't appeal to everyone so much, but I hope this review will help some of you decide to give it a try. Again, I think Granger is a great public speaker, and I found quite a number of his points from the book were strengthened in his lecture that I attended. So, those of you attending Nimbus should give definite consideration to attending his lecture on Saturday morning. ******************** Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Malady579 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 13 13:36:06 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:36:06 -0000 Subject: Chapter 14 GF, weird? and a MDDT's thankyou In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60278 vicky wrote: > > I always assumed this was to alert our attention to the fact that > > Neville had obviously been very affected by Moody's lesson, having > > seen the curse that as good as killed his parents. I think JKR was > > just showing how Voldemort has had such a bad effect on everyone's > > lives, not just Harry's. I would be prone to agree with you. It fits all the needed information we have. At the time, when I first read the chapter, I thought it was just Neville being sleepless for the same reasons Harry was. What was just suggested to me was the fact Barty Jr. has just given young Neville a very engaging (for him) book about the fascinating world of magical horticulture. :) Oh yippy. Bet it was just riveting. But I'm sure it was to him. Wait- I know it was. This boy is trying to forget what happened that day. Neville does not confront things until it is right there for him to face. Normally he just pushes it out of his mind. So what else would he be doing? Lying there thinking like our young Harry does? No. Neville is reading. MarEphraim added: > But back to Neville: I have suspected that there will be a link to > Neville's being awake at the end of chapter 14 in future books. > Whether for good or evil is hard to say. Oh, but can't it be evil? Are there Neville is Ever So Evil (ESE) people out there? Oh *everyone* just loves to defend the blunderer, but he is a loose canon of possibility. Well....*everyone* is. Anyway, it is early and I tend to babble more. My vote, or rather hope, is Neville will be at least interesting enough to play the fence a bit. Theses kids should be as fascinating as the adults in the series when it comes to which side they are playing for. Melody with a few suggestions by Grey PS: Oh and thank you N Fry for the wonderful TBAY commemorating our little dishwasher. Let me too raise my glass to Pip for her theory. Oh, and there is a gentle puppy deep within The Wolf. But do not tell him. ;) From pegruppel at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 13:37:37 2003 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (pegruppel) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:37:37 -0000 Subject: phoenix + empress (was) Some people can be wierd about their pets... In-Reply-To: <20030613021802.58915.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60279 Petra Pan wrote:> > Just a point of clarification...did the > references say "emperor of the birds" or > empress? > This applies only to the Feng-Huang; > most non-Asian references to the phoenix > seem to either assign the male gender or > none at all. So chances are, the > reference to "King of the Birds" that > you seek wasn't talking about the > Feng-Huang. Hope this makes your search > just that much shorter. Me: Actually, the reference to the Chinese phoenix refers to both sexes. "Feng"=male(yin) "Huang"=female(yang) In effect, the phoenix in Chinese tradition is two birds--both the male and the female are referred to in the same name. My source was at: http://www.avians.net/paragon/fenghuang.htm I suspect my memory about is playing tricks on me. Or else I read the quote so long ago in some book that I haven't yet tracked down. Cheers! Peg From Malady579 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 13 14:38:23 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 14:38:23 -0000 Subject: Animagi, animals and other puzzles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60280 Kneasy wrote: > Animagi are supposed to be rare. I seem to recall a passage " > there's only eight registered with the Ministry" from somewhere. Yet > so far we've met four, only one of which is registered (McGonagall), > with knowledge of a fifth - James Potter. How rare can they be? Very rare. Most people don't *need* animagi abilities. It's dangerous, it's difficult, and very useless. Imagine you get a whale. Sure, great for a swim every so often, but how would that help you in your everyday life? McGonagall probably became an animagi as part of his desire for transfiguration knowledge - or maybe it's required to be transfiguration teacher at Hogwarts. She got a cat, which was lucky. The rest we know of, the marauders did it to be with a werewolf (not your everyday excuse) and Rita wanted a spying technique, being lucky beyond expectations, I'm sure (although a cat, a dog, etc would've served too, even if not as undetectably). But most people don't need it, don't have the ability, the time or the will, I'm sure. > And why do they have to be registered? Registered, note; not just > passing a test as in Apparating. Since the test for apparition is official, I imagine that you're also registered as an apparitioner. In fact, when you get right down to it, animagi is easier - your first transformation is supervised (not tested) in case something goes wrong, and only when you're finished does burocracy raise its ugly head. > No registration needed to perform Transfiguration charms such as the > one that Moody performed on Draco; so what's the difference? As someone already pointed out, transfiguration charms do not preserve the intelligence, or so FB implies. And again, registration *is* needed, in a way - having registered for school, so you are in at least one list - the alumni list. And probably in many more. > So why Animagi? Why not Transfiguration instead? Maybe there's > something we haven't yet been told because I don't believe that JKR > would carry redundancy this far without good reason. As I pointed above, a normal transfiguration charm won't preserve intelligence - you're reduced to the intelligence of the creature you transform into, which is a major disadvantage. Then too, it is not sure that you can transfigure yourself with that spell (and certainly cannot transfigure back!). Animagi, on the other hand, get more basic feelings (instincts, I supose) but keep their intelligence, in a fashion. > Does a conjured Patronus always take the form of one's Animagus > alter ego? So far, no patronus has taken the form of anyone's animagus alter ego. Harry's patronus takes the form of *his father's* patronus. There is no reason to think that Harry, if animagi, would turn into a stag too. Beyond that, the other two examples of patronus didn't take forms of animals - just silver stuff shooting from the wands. While it is not impossible that all patronus take animal aspects when fully formed, it doesn't necesarilly mean that will correspond with your animagi form. > A female will be DADA teacher. But in which book? So far this > position has been a revolving door with a new incumbent every > volume. JKR promised a female DADA teacher in book 5 in one interview. She might, of course, change her mind if it suits her. > Said not to trust too much the idea that Voldomort cannot kill Harry > now that there has been a blood transfer. The whole purpose of using Harry's blood instead of any other wizard's was to be able to touch Harry, as far as we can tell. VoldEmort's talk at the start of book 4 does sort of hint to other, more secret reasons. We'll know further on, I should imagine. Besides, Harry, as strong as he is (like any other wizard), can still be choked to death, cut by knives, etc. Lucky for him that (according to MD, of course), Voldemort and his allies are too scared to try. > Refused to confirm that Voldomort will die. One of the big questions > - Can he die, or only be defeated? He's already been defeated once. He came back. He's the sort that will continue to come back until successful or utterly destroyed. That's why MD states that Dumbledore's ultimate plan is to *permanently kill* Voldemort. JDR wrote: > <<<--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Renee Daniels" wrote: > Calimora (Wondering why *glasses* are often physical markers on > animagi even when they're not actually part of the witch.)>>> > > The Sergeant Majorette says: > To those of us who have been wearing glasses virtually all our > lives, they *are* a part of the witch. I couldn't wait to get > contacts when I was a teenager, but as it turned out I kept smacking > myself in the face pushing up glasses that weren't there. I think I > look *pretty* in contacts, but I just don't feel like myself. > > JDR (four-eyed to the grave...) I used to have a theory that stated that small decorations - such as tattoos, rings, scars and, of course, glasses and cut off fingers would transform with you as part of your "image". However, my co-conspiratoress has pointed out that glasses, if you really need them to see (i.e. not just occasionally, to read or whatever), then such things *must* transform with you, since you need them. Calimora: > I think that one of the reasons Animagi have to be registered is > that it's entirely internal magic. You dont need a wand, word, or > physical artifact, you just do it, and +pop+ you're a dog. Its a > security nightmare, expecicialy since i'm pretty sure its > undetectable unless you happen to see the wizard in question shift. It is not undetectable - Sirius was able to identify Peter from a small photo in a newspaper. That's why registration and minor details are noted, so identification is possible. Another reasons is that all goverments like to keep tabs on everyone's abilities - ID cards, driving (apparition) licenses, etc. It is a way of keeping control. > There's no way in heck Sirius could have gotten an invis cloak or a > wand into Azkaban, but he could always turn himself into a dog, and > since nobody knew about it, nobody was watching for it. > > ~Calimora "Watching for it" is the wrong expression when applied to the blind guardians of modern Azkaban - dementors don't have eyes, but can feel fellings, which (while making them very good for preventing escapes), makes them easily fooled by a little thought - like Crouch Sr.'s plan to take his son out, Sirius's own escape, and who knows how many more. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf (in colaboration with and forwarded by Melody) From bard7696 at aol.com Fri Jun 13 14:53:01 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 14:53:01 -0000 Subject: More on Ron and I'm out... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60281 In defense of Ron, who I've been a touch hard on lately for him being such a whiner in GoF, he seems to bear his burden a lot more stoically in PS/SS. But really, yard sales are what makes the world go 'round. My sister has a four-year-old and a two-year-old and I think less than 2 percent of their clothes were bought new by my sister. The rest are from gifts or consignment shops and yard sales. (and sometimes gifts FROM yard sales, from Uncle Darrin.) Having used things does not mean having rubbish. Maybe it's a phase he's going through. Hopefully it won't last long. Last post for a while. I'm going to re-read the books without interruption from the endless dissection and interpretation this place holds. While that is fun, I crave just reading the books to enjoy them right before OoP arrives. I'll respond to this thread for a bit, but then I'm done. I'll be back after I've read OoP at least twice. Darrin -- Anyone know when the uk.amazon orders are going to be shipped? From linlou43 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 15:08:39 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:08:39 -0000 Subject: More on Ron and I'm out... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60282 Darrin wrote: > Having used things does not mean having rubbish. Maybe it's a phase > he's going through. Hopefully it won't last long. I(Linda) reply, Actually "a phase" is exactly the context I view Ron's behavior in. My son just turned thirteen and all of a sudden nothing is good enough, I'm never fair and everybody is always picking on him. When I talk to my Mom about it she just tells me to have fun because my brother was exactly like that at that age. In GoF Ron is 14 years old. Hormones make for interesting personality quarks.(Read as sarcasm there.) I think Molly, since she has five older boys, feels as if she has been there, done that and knows that this too shall pass. Enjoy your re-read Darrin -Linda From pen at pensnest.co.uk Fri Jun 13 15:39:41 2003 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 16:39:41 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Children of Death Eaters In-Reply-To: <20030612132805.27933.qmail@web14108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F9D24B2-9DB5-11D7-80C3-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 60283 On Thursday, Jun 12, 2003, at 14:28 Europe/London, Sue White wrote: > > New here, and please forgive me in advance if this has > already been discussed. > > I think it's quite a remarkable coincidence that the > children of the death eaters; Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle > are the same age. Um. I think it depends on many things, not least of which is, how many Death Eaters there were altogether. We are told that Voldemort had quite a lot of supporters, and logically, many of them must have been of parenting age. (With wizards being so long-lived, it's possible a male wizard could father children for a century or so. More, maybe. Goyle might be the youngest of a family of seventeen, Crabbe the eldest of many rotten little apples.) I suspect that there are other DE offspring at Hogwarts. But they are not in Harry's year, or in their house Quidditch team, so he is unlikely to recognise their names. After all, which DEs does he recognise? The ones with whose names he is already familiar - Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, MacNair, a couple of others stick in his mind. We know that Voldemort does not greet all the returning DEs by name in any case - there could be a Parkinson, a Zabini, a Patil or even a Sprout in there for all we know. It may be that there is some dark reason why Death Eaters were requested to produce sons who would be contemporary with Harry Potter, Ron Weasley and Neville Longbottom, but we've yet to be given canon evidence for it. But as for it being a coincidence that Malfoy and his sidekicks are the same age - not really. There are probably plenty of other children of DEs who are not the same age as Harry. We just haven't been told about them. Pen From yellows at aol.com Fri Jun 13 15:44:09 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:44:09 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP Spoiler: Amazon Audio Discussion and Questions Message-ID: <70B55A78.405D3239.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60284 ***************OoP SPOILER DISCUSSION BELOW***************** In a message dated 6/12/2003 9:03:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, Pickle Jimmy writes: > Other questions: > Why does Mrs Weasley whisper distractedly when talking to Harry? > What is she distracted by? > Why is she whispering? > Why is Ron's owl there? > Is the room where R&H are significant? > What does twin-bedded mean? This is from me as an Aussie - does it > mean 2 single beds, or is it a colloquialism for a double bed? > Why didn't R&H hear Harry arrive? > Were they expecting to hear him arrive? > What mode of transport did Harry take to get to this odd > house? > Why the snake motif on the door handle? > Why is the house do dingy and gloomy? Okay, I decided that I think the house may be Dumbledore's. We've had so many discussions about Dumbledore's sketchy background, and what if the house is the place where he and his brother grew up? The two beds could belong to Dumbledore and his brother. Perhaps here is where Harry will be safe after an attack on Privet Drive. :) Now I'm going to make predictions about the excerpt that's driving at least me insane: The Dursleys had something to do with turning Harry in. They've contacted or been contacted by someone at the MoM and have decided to work on the side of getting Harry in real trouble, not knowing, of course, that something huge might happen on Privet Drive to draw attention to their house. Maybe Dementors came, maybe it was something else. Who knows? In any case, we know that Harry had to use magic to protect himself. Now, maybe Dumbledore and the Weasleys (and Grangers?) have gotten together to celebrate Harry's birthday at the house where Harry will stay for the rest of the summer. I know it all sounds very serious for Hermione to be discussing Harry's expulsion from Hogwarts, but this is the beginning of the book (I assume, since it appears to be the first time he's seen Ron in the book and also since it's just been one month since he's been with either of them), and the kids -- in my opinion, at least -- appear to be acting the way someone would if they'd had to hide a fun surprise from their friend. Maybe they're all going to stay at Dumbledore's house for the rest of the summer because it's safe there and their families are there. Maybe there once *was* an Order of the Phoenix, but that has been disbanded due to a lack of need. Now, of course, with the MoM turning against them and Voldemort back, the Order of the Phoenix (whatever that is ) has been brought back and is having its first meeting at Dumbledore's childhood home. But I think Molly is working on setting up Harry's birthday party during that scene and that's what needs to be finished. Also, I'm not discounting the possibility that this is all just a dream Harry's having. But, as in GoF, when Harry has a dream this in-depth, it's usually more like a vision or premonition than anything else. Okay. :) I'm sure I'm way off, but I had to get it out there, just for fun. Brief Chronicles From kiatrier at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 15:36:06 2003 From: kiatrier at yahoo.com (Kia) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:36:06 -0000 Subject: Pullman is Lockhart was Re: The Hidden Key to Harry Potter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60285 >In the CoS section, Granger makes >a very persuasive and novel case that the real-life model for the >character of >Gilderoy Lockhart is Philip Pullman, author of the "Dark >Materials" trilogy. I >found this to be particularly interesting, because it's something >I've *never* seen discussed anywhere in the fandom. I think this is where Granger is taking it too far and just for this one argument the whole "Rowling is an inkling" becomes dubious and sounds like Granger just want to re-write the books in his line of thinking instead of giving a unbiased analysis. Rowling herself actually likes Pullman's writing (what she stated more than once) and however I twist my mind around it, Lockhart's writing are not the tiniest little bit portrayed as good. The problems Granger has with Pullman, are obvious. His Dark Materials are anti-Narnia. God is dead and religion is bad. But that's not enough - Pullman wrote once a very, very harsh article on the Narnia Chronicles and if Granger wrote this book as someone who believes in Christian faith than this: "But there is no doubt in the public mind that what matters is the Narnia cycle, and that is where the puzzle comes, because there is no doubt in my mind that it is one of the most ugly and poisonous things I've ever read. Why the Narnia books are popular with children is not difficult to see. In a superficial and bustling way, Lewis could tell a story, and when he cheats, as he frequently does, the momentum carries you over the bumps and the potholes..... And the American critic John Goldthwaite, in his powerful and original study of children's literature The Natural History Of Make-Believe (OUP, 1996), lays bare the misogyny, the racism, the sado- masochistic relish for violence that permeates the whole cycle. For an open-eyed reading of the books reveals some hair- raising stuff. One of the most vile moments in the whole of children's literature, to my mind, occurs at the end of The Last Battle, when Aslan reveals to the children that "The term is over: the holidays have begun" because "There was a real railway accident. Your father and mother and all of you are - as you used to call it in the Shadowlands - dead." To solve a narrative problem by killing one of your characters is something many authors have done at one time or another. To slaughter the lot of them, and then claim they're better off, is not honest storytelling: it's propaganda in the service of a life-hating ideology. But that's par for the course. Death is better than life; boys are better than girls; light-coloured people are better than dark-coloured people; and so on. There is no shortage of such nauseating drivel in Narnia, if you can face it." must hurt. I think without a doubt, Granger dislikes Pullman and his anti-"Narnianism". Everything Granger values, Pullman openly detests. And this is where the Lockhart is Pullman theory is wishful thinking on the side of Granger. And with that little tidbit in mind - that Granger does over-interpretate in order to get the desired results - the rest of his arguments have to face the question of how much they are actually wishful thinking. Personally - I think the general hunt for symbolism in stags and red and lions and snakes is just over the top. To quote Umberto Eco on the wonder of symbolism: "[A]rchetypes don't exist; the body exists...And high is better than low, because... it's better to climb a tree and pick fruit than end up underground, food for worms... The easiest way to return from where you've been without retracing your steps is to walk in a circle. The animal that coils in a circle is the serpent; that's why so many cults and myths of the serpent exist, because it's hard to represent the return of the sun by the coiling of a hippopotomys... So the vertical position is life, pointing sunward, and obelisks stand as trees stand, while the horizontal position and night are asleep, death. All cultures worship menhirs, monoliths, pyramids, columns, but nobody bows down to balconies and railings. Did you ever hear of an archaic cult of the sacred banister? ...anyway, that's how we're put together, all of us, and that's why we work out the same symbols millions of kilometers apart, and naturally they all resemble one another. Thus you see that people with a brain in their head, if they're shown an alchemist's oven, all shut up and warm inside, think of the belly of the mama making a baby, and only your Diabolicals think that the Madonna about to have the Child is a reference to the alchemist's oven. They spent thousands of years looking for a message, and it was there all the time: they just had to look at themselves in the mirror." The original is much longer and can be found in "Foucault's Pendulum." My point is (besides quoting better authors at length) that searching for outright symbolism is a tricky and way too speculative business. There is a reason why symbols are chosen in the first place - snakes are poisonous, therefore they must be bad. You don't need to go back to Adam and Eve and the apple to come to the conclusion that the snake is a negative symbol and therefore the Slytherin symbolism is a negative one. You can go the direct way - a nest of poisonous snakes - and come to the same conclusion. The game can be played a lot more - think of a strong animal, brave, a predator, but perceived as "noble" - and voila - you have a lion without searching for Narnia parallels. James is a stag? How many different large mammals can be found in the average British forest? Two? Three? And considering the bad reputation a wild boar or a fox has - James's animagus form might have nothing to do with any kind of symbolism. I can play this game for hours, because sometimes the mundane is just that and *not* symbolism. And yes, I heard of the quote where Rowling says that if she talked to much about her beliefs she would give too much away and Book Seven is going to tell a lot about her Christian beliefs, but I don't think that Rowling intionally inserts all these things as Christian symbols into the text. Sometimes colors are just colors and the name Hermione is just chosen to avoid harrasing of little girls with buckteeth who are named Elizabeth and not as a sign of things to come. Kia From yellows at aol.com Fri Jun 13 16:06:08 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:06:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP Professor Binns Message-ID: <3C00F846.6DC803B8.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60286 In a message dated 6/12/2003 11:03:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, Tish writes: > My *theory* as to why some people become ghosts was sent down the > toilet with Binns. I thought that maybe people who were murdered > (Moaning Myrtle, Nearly-Headless Nick, Bloody Baron) were able to > come back as ghosts. That is why everyone was able to come > out of > LV's wand in GoF. I think the people coming out of Voldemort's wand is different than the ghosts who walk around Hogwarts on a regular basis. First of all, Lily and James are *never* seen anywhere else as ghosts, and I doubt they will ever be. We may get little hints of them here and there like we do in each book to remind us of Harry's heartache, but they can't, say, make it to work every day anymore. They're really gone. There must be something different. First, I wonder if there are ghosts elsewhere in the wizarding world. I've loaned out all my books but GoF right now, so I don't have the canon at hand. Are there ghosts outside of Hogwarts? Second, it doesn't seem that murder vs. natural causes makes much of a difference. Lily and James were clearly murdered, as were a number of other Voldemort-victims, and yet we don't see them anymore. Binns may have died of natural causes, and yet we see him all the time. Nick was murdered, and so was Myrtle, both of whom we see regularly. So I don't see a common thread there. I've heard that JKR suggested we'll learn soon why some people become ghosts and some don't. That makes me think the death of Book V will be related in some way. Either that, or the room that Harry will keep visiting in his dreams will hold the answer. But I can't make a good guess about what it is! Nothing come to me. :) Brief Chronicles From LeiaOS at aol.com Fri Jun 13 16:05:42 2003 From: LeiaOS at aol.com (LeiaOS at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:05:42 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] More on Ron and I'm out... Message-ID: <51.30a08663.2c1b5056@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60287 In a message dated 6/13/2003 9:57:30 AM Central Standard Time, bard7696 at aol.com writes: > Having used things does not mean having rubbish. Maybe it's a phase > he's going through. Hopefully it won't last long. I'd say, depending upon how things go, that's very possible. I wouldn't have set foot in a thrift store when I was about thirteen or fourteen (except possibly to buy costumes for a play, and even then I'd have preferred to make new ones myself), but now I find that I enjoy them and you're quite right that second hand is not rubbish. Any one who shops thrift stores knows that you can get some very nice, often brand name, stuff if you keep your eyes open. ~Sabrina~ 'I say to you all, once again- in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open.' ~Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 16:19:42 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 16:19:42 -0000 Subject: Chapter 14 GF, weird? & Harry's Independance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60288 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ggershman77" wrote: > > This also points out Harry's self-centeredness, his pride, which is > a main theme of this book. Harry relies too much on himself, > ...edited... Harry is in some ways oblivious to others around him, > as he is too wrapped up in his own personal agenda. > > ...edited... > > Greg bboy_mn: I think we need to keep in mind that Harry is an abused and neglected child. He has has very little reason in his life to trust or depend on anyone, so it doesn't comes as a suprise that Harry is a very independant loner. Until he started Hogwarts he had absolutely no reason to trust any adults. His experience has shown him that they are generally mean and irrational, and those who aren't, tend to be very indifferent and uninterested. As far as kids, his experience has shown him that they are also mean and are more interested in being on the good side of the local bully than doing what they know is right. Since Harry has never had anyone he could trust or depend on, he has learn to rely on no one but himself. This has improved since he started school at Hogwarts, but he still is not what you would call popular. He had Ron and Hermione as trusted friends, and for the most part, is civil and polite to everyone else. Despite the improvement we have seen and undoubtly will see more of in the future, I think this independance and self-reliance is something that will follow Harry through his whole life. Just a thought. bboy_mn From yellows at aol.com Fri Jun 13 16:21:36 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:21:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Re: What's in Sirius' Vault at Gringott's? Message-ID: <49629DD6.5BDAE208.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60289 In a message dated 6/13/2003 6:15:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, Sabrina writes: > Actually, I have always had a problem with the goblins running the only > wizarding bank (p.63 SSpb). In History of Magic we hear over and over again > about Goblin rebellions all over the place. Who would put basically their > whole economy in the hands of people (beasts?) who are > perhaps only waiting > for a way to overthrow the current government? Gosh, I can't believe that didn't even occur to me. We hear about the long, boring, class lectures about years and years of goblin wars, and yet they are the very creatures who are in control of the wizarding currency. Two possibilities come to mind: 1 -- They've seen the error of their ways and that's what's important about studying them in school. They've learned that they can use their energy to protect things rather than take over and destroy them, so they decided to be bank managers -- and they're the best. 2 -- Part of their punishment for spreading havoc all over the world for so long is to spend eternity working at Gringott's, as if they were House Elves. Could there be a magically-binding contract that forces them to do this because they broke some sort of peace treaty? Brief Chronicles From yellows at aol.com Fri Jun 13 16:24:54 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:24:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New Eye Theorem Message-ID: <7EFFB9FD.1CFEE8A3.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60290 In a message dated 6/13/2003 7:35:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, Izaskun writes: > Well, there's certainly more in Harry's eyes, but I don't think Lilly > switched eyes with him, because if it were so, he wouldn't > need glasses. The > short-sighed one is James, not Lilly. Very good point. But, of course, we have no idea what kind of eyes will easily be transfered to another person. :) Maybe it makes your vision a little blurry to have another person's eyes in your head. Brief Chronicles From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Jun 13 16:47:15 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:47:15 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More on Ron and I'm out... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <565442459.20030613094715@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 60291 Hi, Friday, June 13, 2003, 8:08:39 AM, Linda wrote: > Actually "a phase" is exactly the context I view Ron's > behavior in. My son just turned thirteen and all of a sudden nothing > is good enough, I'm never fair and everybody is always picking on > him. I agree on the "phase". Our daughter has always had hand-me-downs from friends and second hand stores, and hasn't cared at all until just a few months ago. The reason is her classmates, who now enter the phase of being obsessed with who is popular (at age 10-11) and are making her life hard. She gets made fun of for her clothes now, and kids can be really cruel! So, I emphasize with Ron and his way of trying to talk down his stuff before someone else does! -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 16:48:09 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 16:48:09 -0000 Subject: Chapter 14 GF, weird? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60292 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lennyb2002" wrote: > > So, does the unknown narrator often highlight something Harry is > oblivious to? I can't remember where in GoF this occurs, but there is another paragraph where Rowling changes her authorial voice in what struck me as a very odd way. The paragraph concerns time and how it speeds up when you don't want it to; I think it occurs just before either the first or second tasks, when Harry is realizing how little time he has left to prepare. What's striking is that the paragraph -- it might even be just one sentence -- is entirely non-narrative, more of an observation that someone might share with someone else of less experience, lying somewhere between pedagogical and pedantic. It's the sort of thing that Dumbledore might have said (but he wasn't in the scene) or maybe even the sort of thing that Harry could have mused about (but JKR does not include the phrase "Harry wondered"). But the voice is entirely different, and I don't recall any other instances of this sort of character-less omniscient tone anywhere else in the books. Ersatz Harry From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Jun 13 17:00:10 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:00:10 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] More on Ron and I'm out... In-Reply-To: <51.30a08663.2c1b5056@aol.com> References: <51.30a08663.2c1b5056@aol.com> Message-ID: <1286217497.20030613100010@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 60293 Hi, Friday, June 13, 2003, 9:05:42 AM, LeiaOS wrote: > Any one who shops thrift stores knows > that you can get > some very nice, often brand name, stuff if you keep your eyes open. Maybe Molly should consider how old Ron is, and take him along on future clothes shopping trips. Or even hand him the list of what's needed and the money, and let him go by himself. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From Noel.Chevalier at uregina.ca Fri Jun 13 15:57:52 2003 From: Noel.Chevalier at uregina.ca (shihtouji) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:57:52 -0000 Subject: Voldemort = Lich? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60294 > And here's one that may come to play in the future! > "Learning the true name of a lich is rumored to confer > power over the creature." > > Ideas? > Pryd. > x > ------------ > Very interesting indeed - and to be honest - this is one posting I > wish I hadn't read. If it actually comes down to the fact that it's > his *real name* (when spoken to his face) that will finally destroy > him - I would rather not have known :-( > > Inge Yes, this sounds interesting--but I'm still not 100% sure. Doesn't Harry address Tom by name at the end of CS? (I'm pretty sure he does in the film, which may just be an oversight.) At any rate, Tom is certainly not shy about parading his name in front of Harry in order to show the transformation from "Tom Riddle" into "Voldemort." You could probably tweak this a bit and suggest that "Riddle" is not really LV's surname, since it was foisted on him by a strange trick of law. "Marvolo" is his grandfather's given name, I assume--I don't think we know what his mother's surname was. Maybe that's what Harry has to find out, and that's what's going to cause some Big Revelations either in Book V or VI and VII. At the same time, the idea that learning the true name of a being confers power over it is hardly unique to the lich--it's the reason Moses isn't let in on the secret of the Divine Name, but is told to make do with the substitute moniker "I Am Who I Am" (=Yahweh) as the "name" of the Deity who is talking to him. Yahweh knows full well that Moses could invoke his name in magic spells and assumepower over him, so he offers this made-up name instead. But this is worth looking into further--maybe all will be revealed next Saturday??? Red Inkstone From pennylin at swbell.net Fri Jun 13 17:11:53 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (pennylin) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:11:53 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pullman is Lockhart was Re: The Hidden Key to Harry Potter References: Message-ID: <002301c331ce$e31abc30$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 60295 Hi -- I originally wrote: >In the CoS section, Granger makes >a very persuasive and novel case that the real-life model for the >character of >Gilderoy Lockhart is Philip Pullman, author of the "Dark >Materials" trilogy. I >found this to be particularly interesting, because it's something >I've *never* seen discussed anywhere in the fandom. Kia responded with: <<<>>>>>>>> Well, the Pullman comparison is such a small part of the book overall that it's a bit drastic, IMHO, to write off his entire thesis and analysis just because you think he's offbase for equating Pullman with Gilderoy Lockhart. Granger admits that some of his reasons for thinking the real life model for Lockhart is Pullman are "silly," while other reasons are more considered. Overall, I just thought it was an interesting comparison, since I always assumed that Lockhart was based on her ex-husband. It was interesting to me to consider other possibilities. <<<>>>> I've actually never seen her express any opinion (good or bad) on Pullman's writing or even mention him. Do you have any sources? Kia again: <<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, like I said, it doesn't seem fair to me to dismiss his entire thesis and all his arguments, just because you don't believe he's hit the mark with one small tangential point. It doesn't *matter* whether Lockhart's real life model is Philip Pullman, Jorge Arantes (her ex), a mixture of people or someone else entirely. That point is completely inconsequential to Granger's overall message. Yes, Granger is up-front that he dislikes Pullman's writing and that he thinks the world of Lewis. But, it really isn't *necessarily* "wishful thinking on Granger's part" as you say, Kia. It *might* be; then again, it might not be. Unless JKR ever discloses the actual model for Lockhart, we won't *know* for sure. Well, not unless she were to publicly discuss Granger's theory in particular and admit its truth or disavow it. This seems unlikely to happen. Again, whatever you may think about that particular point, it's really so incredibly tangential to the overall arguments advanced in the book that it doesn't make much sense to me to dismiss his book on those grounds alone. Your points about symbolism are, however, well-taken. I happen to like symbols. I think it's *arguable* that Rowling's use was intentional, but then again, it's just as plausible that these "symbols" have no particular meaning for her at all. I daresay she won't discuss it though until after the 7th book is published, so we'll just all have to bide our time. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drdara at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 17:16:36 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: All Jim Dale's voices In-Reply-To: <003c01c33177$ae353e20$f2c78351@j0dhe> Message-ID: <20030613171636.8893.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60296 I didn't write this, I only listen to audio books while walking the dog and I prefer the UK version with Stephen Fry. Danielle --- Hollydaze wrote: > danielle dassero wrote: > > I listen to the audio books while I work. The ones > you might have missed > > include Charlie immitating his mother: "I thought > they were all safe!" (GoF) > > There are a couple of occassions where the > characters mimic other > > characters. Perhaps they are supposed to count > toward 184. I know they sound > > different on the recordings. > > I don't know if this was a reply to me so I'm > replying anyway and if not sorry ;) > > I haven't missed any in book 4 as far as I know as I > have the full 125 that are mentioned as being in > book 4. Of course if they've miss counted then yes > I've missed some but according to the "official" > figure that's the right number. Charlie imitating > Molly would be Molly's voice surely though? (I > wouldn't know, see below) It's books 1, 2 and 3 that > I might be missing some from so if anyone has an > interview or news article that says the figures for > those tapes too, I'd be most grateful. > > Also as I don't have the American audio books (I > have the British ones) I have to go by different > characters in the books and as all the speech that's > in the books for the different characters fits with > 125, that would seem to be them. > > One further thing, where did 184 come from? Is this > a miss type or is there something I haven't found? > ;) There are 125 voices in GoF and 134 in OoP. > HOLLYDAZE!!! > > "No one's going to try and kill you until we've > sorted a few things out," said Lupin. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 17:19:01 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 17:19:01 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Vault and Gringott's Goblins? In-Reply-To: <49629DD6.5BDAE208.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60297 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/13/2003 6:15:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, Sabrina writes: > > > ..., I have ... a problem with the goblins running the only > > wizarding bank (p.63 SSpb). In History of Magic we hear ... > > about Goblin rebellions .... Who would put basically their > > whole economy in the hands of people (beasts?) ... > Brief Chronicles: > > ... that didn't even occur to me. We hear about ... years and years > of goblin wars, and yet they are ... in control of the wizarding > currency. > > Two possibilities come to mind: > > 1 -- They've seen the error of their ways ... > > 2 -- Part of their punishment for spreading havoc all over the world > for so long is to spend eternity working at Gringott's, ... > > Brief Chronicles bboy_mn: Unless I'm mistaken the Goblin rebellion took place about 400 years ago. I think the main thrust of those rebellions was to force the wizard world to recognize that goblin were intelligent sentient beings and not beast in the same catagory as rabbits, nifflers, and dragons, and that goblin deserved the same rights and privileges as wizards. Once goblins had secured their rights and privileges, they fell into their nitch in the wizard world. Most people who are oppressed in general, are especially economically oppressed. Being classified as beasts would not give goblin many economic opportunities. Once classified as being, I think like all oppressed groups, the goblins prospered, and in the process discovered they had an affinity for managing money. In some ways, although I admit it's very risky to comment on, I see some parallels between the Jews and the goblins. Although somewhat relying on stereo types, they are both historically oppressed, they are both conservative with money and take finances very seriously, and they both have proven themselves as shrewd managers of money and good businessmen. I think the fact that goblins treat money very seriously is one of the reasons they have, over time, become the bankers of the wizard world. I also believe that the wizard bank parallels Swiss banks. Goblins guard a person's privacy as closely as they guard a person's money, and I don't think the goblins believe it's any of the wizard's goverments business what is in or what is happen with another wizard's bank account. Their job, which they take very seriously, is to guard people's money, not to assist the Ministry in catching criminals unless of course those criminals happen to be bank robbers. And in the case of bank robber or anyone else who think they can financially screw the goblins, the goblins prefer to by-pass the wizard's government and meter out punishment themselves; very harsh punishment I'm sure. - - - - - - - - - - - Other wizard world banking issues: Q: Why are the Gringott's goblins breaking curses, opening tombs, and taking treasure in Egypt? A: I think it is one of the way the goblins make money for the bank. They hire out their curse breakers to other countries in return for a significant share of all the treasure they find, or all the treasure they make available to the host country by breaking the curses on it. To the countries who hire the curse breakers, any usable money is better than a lot of cursed money. So, if you can accept this premiss, how much do the Gringott's goblins get? 10%? 50%? 80%? How much of a commission, in addition to their salaries, do curse breakers like Bill Weasley get? 0%? 2%? 5%? 10%? Q: How far does the goblins influence in money management reach? If there was money to be made, would they invest in the muggle stock market or assist businesses trading with the muggle world? A: I think they would. I have this admittedly unfounded belief that the goblins have a variety of front organizations that they use to 'launder' wizard's money in the muggle world. On that subject, I think there are a lot of wizard owned muggle businesses. For example, a muggle and a magic person might marry, like Seamus's parent, and start a muggle business that acts as a gateway between the two worlds. They make money by funneling non-magic wizard products into the muggle world and funneling muggle products into the wizard world. The accounting and tax headaches for a business like that must be horrendous. Unless you believe that the wizard world is totally self-sustaining then some products like meat, fruit, vegetables, raw manufacturing materials have to come from outside. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 17:20:57 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 17:20:57 -0000 Subject: OOP: OoTP clip - driving me crazy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60298 What I want to know is how is it that Harry's vision was obscured by bushy hair, since Hermione is shorter than Harry. Did she jump on him? Should be interesting in the movie - Constance Vigilance From elfundeb at comcast.net Fri Jun 13 17:22:45 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb2) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 17:22:45 -0000 Subject: Why the Goblins Control the Money (WAS: What's in Sirius' Vault? In-Reply-To: <49629DD6.5BDAE208.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60299 Sabrina writes: > > > Actually, I have always had a problem with the goblins running the only > > wizarding bank (p.63 SSpb). In History of Magic we hear over and over again > > about Goblin rebellions all over the place. Who would put basically their > > whole economy in the hands of people (beasts?) who are > > perhaps only waiting > > for a way to overthrow the current government? > Brief Chronicles responded: > > Two possibilities come to mind: > > 1 -- They've seen the error of their ways and that's what's important about studying them in school. They've learned that they can use their energy to protect things rather than take over and destroy them, so they decided to be bank managers -- and they're the best. > > 2 -- Part of their punishment for spreading havoc all over the world for so long is to spend eternity working at Gringott's, as if they were House Elves. Could there be a magically-binding contract that forces them to do this because they broke some sort of peace treaty? > Here another possibility: 3. As part of a long-ago treaty ending the goblin rebellions, the WW ceded control over the money to the goblins, but continues to provide services that require wizard skills. This would explain why Bill Weasley works for Gringotts as a curse-breaker. The benefit of this for wizards is that they don't have to deal with Muggle currency exchange. The goblins get all the economic benefits, plus free rein that allows them an entree into related businesses. I'll bet the goblins' currency exchange methods resemble money laundering more than anything else, but putting the goblins in charge of it allows the wizards to keep their hands clean and allows the wizards to avoid contact with Muggles, yet obtain Muggle money when necessary. Perhaps at the time of the deal the WW didn't recognize the danger of letting their historic enemies control the banking industry, or perhaps the goblin rebellions were so frightening that anything was worth it as long as peace prevailed. There's also the fact that in the Middle Ages moneylending was looked upon as an unclean profession due to a perceived Biblical prohibition on usury, and therefore moneylending became the province of persons outside the predominant Christian culture. Since the WW had not split with the Muggle world at that time, it may have been influenced by Muggle attitudes when it allowed the goblins to take control. Debbie From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 17:29:51 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 17:29:51 -0000 Subject: Chapter 14 GF, weird? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60300 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lennyb2002" wrote: > ...edited... > So, does the unknown narrator often highlight something Harry is > oblivious to? Is the narrator sympathizing for Neville, or perhaps > suggesting that Harry is missing an important clue? > > Thanks > lennyb bboy_mn: This is something I always thought was strange. It the Quirrel's turban dream during Harry's first night at Hogwarts. SS/PS Pb Am PG 162- Description of the dream then... " and Harry woke, sweating and shaking." [new paragraph - my emphasis added] "He rolled over and fell asleep again, and when he woke next day, he DIDN'T REMEMBER THE DREAM at all." Didn't remember the dream? er... that's odd. Just a thought. bboy_mn From zanelupin at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 15:10:35 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (zanelupin) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:10:35 -0000 Subject: Reattaching Limbs In-Reply-To: <3EE93D6F.20004@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60301 Eric Oppen wrote: Another difference that AFAIK hasn't been suggested yet is that Harry and the girl who cursed off her nose are still growing, which might make all the difference. Mad-Eye, OTOH, was fully grown when he lost his parts, so possibly they couldn't re-attach them. Jazmyn wrote: Or he lost them due to spells that leave magic residue in the tissues that make the curse wounds untreatable. Otherwise, someone would have been able to remove Harry's scar. I think severe curse scars/wounds cannot be magically healed for whatever reason. And I reply: Before I reply I just want to say hi, I'm new here and this is my first time posting. Now with that out of the way: Maybe it's just me, but I've always gotten the impression that Moody is the type that would wear his battle scars either as a reminder or out of pride. Even if he could regrow his leg or repair all his scars and wounds, I don't know that he would want to, so it may not be helpful to use him as an example of what injuries can or cannot be repaired. But I agree with jazmyn that scars and wounds from powerful curses probably can't be healed magically. Kathy--ZaneLupin From pjaponica at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 17:15:26 2003 From: pjaponica at yahoo.com (pjaponica) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 17:15:26 -0000 Subject: More on Ron and I'm out... In-Reply-To: <1286217497.20030613100010@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60302 > > Maybe Molly should consider how old Ron is, and take him > along on future clothes shopping trips. > > Or even hand him the list of what's needed and the money, > and let him go by himself. Mmm, Molly doesn't seem like the type of person who would do that though -- at least not for Ron. She doesn't seem to know how old he is or what colors he likes...unlike say, Percy. But this may change, after all she snapped at Percy a few times in GoF and I have a gut feeling that Ron will be getting his chance to shine pretty soon here. So we'll see, shall we? PJ From karen.lyall at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Jun 13 16:24:06 2003 From: karen.lyall at blueyonder.co.uk (karenlyall666) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 16:24:06 -0000 Subject: 125 voices are book 4 only (not all four together) In-Reply-To: <007f01c33105$1a247420$f8788751@j0dhe> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60303 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hollydaze" wrote: > Ok, I went through the book checking the list I had from two years ago and found the characters that I had missing and when they say that Jim Dale does 125 voices they are talking about ONLY GoF, not all four books. These are all the voices in book 4, I say voices because not all of them are named characters: > 1.. Riddle Maid > 2.. Riddle Cook > 3.. Woman at bar > 4.. Man at Bar > 5.. Landlord > 6.. Dot's friend > 7.. Dot > 8.. Peter > 9.. Voldemort > 10.. Frank Bryce > 11.. Dudley > 12.. Vernon > 13.. Harry > 14.. Petunia > 15.. Arthur > 16.. Ron > 17.. Fred > 18.. George > 19.. Charlie > 20.. Molly > 21.. Ginny > 22.. Percy > 23.. Bill > 24.. Mr Diggory > 25.. Cedric > 26.. Announcer > 27.. Basil > 28.. Mr Roberts > 29.. Wizard in plus fours > 30.. Kevin's mum > 31.. Kevin > 32.. Ministry Wizard 1 > 33.. Seamus > 34.. Mrs Finnigan > 35.. Ministry Wizard 2 > 36.. Archie > 37.. Ludo Bagman > 38.. Crouch Sr. > 39.. Saleswizard > 40.. Ministry witch 1 > 41.. Winky > 42.. Fudge > 43.. Lucius Malfoy > 44.. Draco > 45.. French Girl > 46.. Young Wizard 1 > 47.. Young Wizard 2 > 48.. Stan Shunpike > 49.. Crouch Jr. > 50.. Ministry Witch 2 > 51.. Person 1 > 52.. Person 2 > 53.. Person 3 > 54.. Ireland Rosette > 55.. Neville > 56.. Hagrid > 57.. Peeves > 58.. McGonagall > 59.. NHN > 60.. Colin Creevey > 61.. Dennis Creevey > 62.. Sorting Hat > 63.. Dumbledore > 64.. Fat Lady > 65.. Sprout > 66.. Hannah Abbot > 67.. Lavender Brown > 68.. Dean Thomas > 69.. Trelawney > 70.. Moody > 71.. Lee Jordan > 72.. Student 1 > 73.. Student 2 > 74.. Ernie Macmillan > 75.. 6th year > 76.. 1st year girl > 77.. Madam Maxime > 78.. Karkaroff > 79.. 6th yr girl 1 > 80.. 6th yr girl 2 > 81.. Fleur Delacour > 82.. Poliakoff > 83.. Angelina Johnsen > 84.. Snape > 85.. Violet > 86.. Katie Bell > 87.. Gryffindor 1 > 88.. Rita Skeeter > 89.. Mr Ollivander > 90.. Student 3 > 91.. Student 4 > 92.. Cho Chang > 93.. Pansy Parkinson > 94.. Dragon Wizard > 95.. Sirius > 96.. Student 5 > 97.. Pomfrey > 98.. Dobby > 99.. Parvati Patil > 100.. Padma Patil > 101.. Krum > 102.. Roger Davies > 103.. Professor Grubbly-Plank > 104.. Moaning Myrtle > 105.. Filch > 106.. Voices of Mersong > 107.. Merman 1 > 108.. Merman 2 > 109.. House Elf 1 > 110.. House Elf 2 > 111.. Juror at Bagman's trial > 112.. Woman at trial, probably Mrs Lestrange > 113.. Bertha Jorkins > 114.. Sphinx > 115.. DE 1 > 116.. Avery > 117.. Macnair > 118.. Mr Crabbe > 119.. Mr Goyle > 120.. Lily > 121.. James > 122.. Person 4 > 123.. Person 5 > 124.. Person 6 > 125.. Mrs Diggory > The reason that the 125 can't be all four books is because in total there are at least 221 DIFFERENT voices total (all four together) in fact there are 144 in the first 3 books alone, although I'm not going to list all 221 (or 144 here) unless anyone REALLY wants me to. :) I can't say there are definitely 221 in all four books because I don't know how many voices there are supposed to be in book 1, 2 and 3 so I don't definitely know that I've found all of them so there could very well be even more. Now Me (KarenLyall666) You do realise if this list is correct there are actually 126 voices, don't you?... You left out HERMIONE!!! She is in the book she does speak - and you forgot about her! Shame on you... KarenLyall666 (who wishes we could leave Hermione out, but anyway...) From ivanova at idcnet.com Fri Jun 13 17:47:50 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:47:50 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 14 GF, weird? References: Message-ID: <003001c331d3$ea291fd0$52ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 60304 > bboy_mn: > > This is something I always thought was strange. It the Quirrel's > turban dream during Harry's first night at Hogwarts. > > SS/PS Pb Am PG 162- > Description of the dream then... " and Harry woke, sweating and > shaking." [new paragraph - my emphasis added] "He rolled over and fell > asleep again, and when he woke next day, he DIDN'T REMEMBER THE DREAM > at all." > > Didn't remember the dream? er... that's odd. Not necessarily. I know there are some nights where I have woken up, remembered that I had been dreaming about something, gone back to sleep, woken up the next morning, and maybe later that day remembered I had awoken earlier in the night and that I had been dreaming, but remember nothing of the dream itself. I consider it very within the realm of possibility where there are other nights where I have done the exact same thing but never remembered dreaming at all the night before. At most, I might remember waking up in the middle of the night, but not that I was dreaming. Granted, on those instances where I do remember that I had been dreaming but have no idea about what, I always get the impression they weren't bad dreams, and we are more apt to remember a nightmare than just a basic dream. I'm saying that Harry could very well have done this, but the interesting thing is that he was able to forget a nightmare that easily. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From MadameSSnape at aol.com Fri Jun 13 17:50:33 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:50:33 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Children of Death Eaters Message-ID: <19b.166ef45d.2c1b68e9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60305 In a message dated 6/13/2003 11:44:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, pen at pensnest.co.uk writes: > It may be that there is some dark reason why Death Eaters were > requested to produce sons who would be contemporary with Harry Potter, > Ron Weasley and Neville Longbottom, but we've yet to be given canon > evidence for it. But as for it being a coincidence that Malfoy and > his sidekicks are the same age - not really. There are probably > plenty of other children of DEs who are not the same age as Harry. We > just haven't been told about them. I rather thought of it as something akin to the Nazi Lebensborn program. I could easily see Voldie setting up such a breeding program, to ensure the purity of the Wizarding "race", using his own followers as breeding stock. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ivanova at idcnet.com Fri Jun 13 17:56:02 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:56:02 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' Vault and Gringott's Goblins? References: Message-ID: <003801c331d5$0f122bb0$52ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 60306 Steve (bboy_mn) had a slight Q & A section about the Gringotts goblins. I, for quite some time, have had a question about them that I don't think has an answer, but has disturbed me for quite some time. Q: On what side, if any, were the goblins during the last war against Voldemort? And, if they were neutral or at least not allied with Voldemort, does this mean they couldn't be persuaded to join him this time around? I join the ranks of those who are worried about the goblins having control over the WW's money. If they joined Voldemort, the WW would have some major problems on their hands. It would also serve as a brilliant distraction from the actual war effort as the fighters on the side of light could be reduced to figuring out where their next meal was coming from or how to retake Gringotts instead of the actual problem, defeating Lord Voldemort. The DE's would have unprecedented power simply because they'd be the only one with any money. I don't things will get this dire, and I sincerely hope they are the equivalent of Switzerland, but this whole setup does greatly concern me. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From lilpurplealdy at netscape.net Fri Jun 13 18:07:40 2003 From: lilpurplealdy at netscape.net (Juliet) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 18:07:40 -0000 Subject: Harry "Winning"/Harry Can't Plan Ahead Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60307 Alright, I did search the archives on these bits because I figured it had been discussed before...but I can't find anything. Ah, well, as from my experiences here, I don't think you folks mind re-hashing things too much...and those that have never hashed it in the first place certainly don't mind doing so now. :) Harry's "Winning" Anyways, to the topic, which centers around the Triwizard Tournament of GoF. At the end of the Tournament, Harry is left with a sackful of Galleons, a lot of bad memories, and a load of guilt. I wondered last night...could Harry's guilt be partially derived from the fact that Harry now knows that the only reason he was able to do so well in the Triwizard Tournament(the first Two Tasks, anyways) was because of an agent of Voldemort, helping him at every step..? Perhpas not guilt, but atleast disapointment at knowing that the things he had accomplished now didn't seem so great. He was able to think himself on the same, if not higher, magical level as Cedric and the other Champions, after doing so well in the Tasks. Then he finds out it was because of Crouch's interference... Of course Harry, being Harry, is probably over this and not dwelling on it. We'll find out in a week. But I have always felt that GoF was rather unresolved, and though some may wince at having to return to Privet Drive every book, I've always liked it. Harry usually muses over the things that happened in the previous year, and I've been wanting to get some more of his thoughts on all the information he received in GoF(Cedric's death, his understanding that he had help from Crouch in the Tournament). Harry didn't seem to really "deal" with all these bad things. He accepted that they were true, but I don't feel as thought he's much beyond that. I'm hoping we'll see Harry really dealing with these things in OotP. Harry Can't Plan Ahead One of the things I noticed about GoF- Harry cannot plan ahead, the boy just can't seem to do it. For two of the three tasks, Harry knows what he'll be facing. During the months he has to prepare, he procrastinates his planning and it is only because of Crouch's cunning that Harry is prepared at all. When it comes to quick- thinking and reacting, Harry is of course excellent at that. But planning? Nope, doesn't seem very skilled in that area. Also, I believe(in the first book?) there's a reference to a chess game between Ron and Harry, at which Harry "loses spectacularly". Perhaps one of the reasons for this loss is Harry's inability to plan ahead, a must in chess. It seems Harry is short-sighted in more areas than his eyes. ;) Aldrea, apologizing for any rambling and redundacy... From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 18:08:11 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 14 GF, weird? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030613180811.99779.qmail@web40503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60308 --- Ersatz Harry wrote: > I can't remember where in GoF this occurs, but there > is another > paragraph where Rowling changes her authorial voice > in what struck me > as a very odd way. The paragraph concerns time and > how it speeds up > when you don't want it to; I think it occurs just > before either the > first or second tasks, when Harry is realizing how > little time he has > left to prepare. Page 317 US PB It is a strange thing, but when you are dreading something, and would give anything to slow down time, it has a disobliging habit of speeding up. One of my favorite quotes:) And you're right, it's in chapter 19, The Hungarian Horntail, so it's right before he knows about the dragons...when he's still in the dark about what he'll be facing. Hope that helps, Kathryn __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From lilpurplealdy at netscape.net Fri Jun 13 18:10:49 2003 From: lilpurplealdy at netscape.net (Juliet) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 18:10:49 -0000 Subject: Harry "Winning"/Harry Can't Plan Ahead Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60309 Alright, I did search the archives on these bits because I figured it had been discussed before...but I can't find anything. Ah, well, as from my experiences here, I don't think you folks mind re-hashing things too much...and those that have never hashed it in the first place certainly don't mind doing so now. :) Harry's "Winning" Anyways, to the topic, which centers around the Triwizard Tournament of GoF. At the end of the Tournament, Harry is left with a sackful of Galleons, a lot of bad memories, and a load of guilt. I wondered last night...could Harry's guilt be partially derived from the fact that Harry now knows that the only reason he was able to do so well in the Triwizard Tournament(the first Two Tasks, anyways) was because of an agent of Voldemort, helping him at every step..? Perhpas not guilt, but atleast disapointment at knowing that the things he had accomplished now didn't seem so great. He was able to think himself on the same, if not higher, magical level as Cedric and the other Champions, after doing so well in the Tasks. Then he finds out it was because of Crouch's interference... Of course Harry, being Harry, is probably over this and not dwelling on it. We'll find out in a week. But I have always felt that GoF was rather unresolved, and though some may wince at having to return to Privet Drive every book, I've always liked it. Harry usually muses over the things that happened in the previous year, and I've been wanting to get some more of his thoughts on all the information he received in GoF(Cedric's death, his understanding that he had help from Crouch in the Tournament). Harry didn't seem to really "deal" with all these bad things. He accepted that they were true, but I don't feel as thought he's much beyond that. I'm hoping we'll see Harry really dealing with these things in OotP. Harry Can't Plan Ahead One of the things I noticed about GoF- Harry cannot plan ahead, the boy just can't seem to do it. For two of the three tasks, Harry knows what he'll be facing. During the months he has to prepare, he procrastinates his planning and it is only because of Crouch's cunning that Harry is prepared at all. When it comes to quick- thinking and reacting, Harry is of course excellent at that. But planning? Nope, doesn't seem very skilled in that area. Also, I believe(in the first book?) there's a reference to a chess game between Ron and Harry, at which Harry "loses spectacularly". Perhaps one of the reasons for this loss is Harry's inability to plan ahead, a must in chess. It seems Harry is short-sighted in more areas than his eyes. ;) Aldrea, apologizing for any rambling and redundacy... From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 13 18:27:21 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 18:27:21 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Vault and Gringott's Goblins? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60310 <<<--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: Other wizard world banking issues: Q: Why are the Gringott's goblins breaking curses, opening tombs, and taking treasure in Egypt?... Unless you believe that the wizard world is totally self-sustaining then some products like meat, fruit, vegetables, raw manufacturing materials have to come from outside...>>> The Sergeant Majorette says: Thanks for these insights. I was having trouble with the concept of our crazysexycool Bill Weasley as a grave-robbing imperialist. Also, could it be that Gringott's is the Federal Reserve Bank of the WW, i.e., the only one that officially interacts with financial entities outside the WW, and that there might be local wizarding credit unions or mutual aid societies that operate entirely in the community (as the do in immigrant communities in NYC where I live)? --JDR From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 18:46:04 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 18:46:04 -0000 Subject: Chapter 14 GF, weird? In-Reply-To: <003001c331d3$ea291fd0$52ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60311 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" wrote: > > bboy_mn: > > > > This is something I always thought was strange. It the Quirrel's > > turban dream during Harry's first night at Hogwarts. > > > > SS/PS Pb Am PG 162- > > Description of the dream then... "He rolled over and fell > > asleep again, and when he woke next day, he DIDN'T REMEMBER THE > > DREAM at all." > > > > Didn't remember the dream? er... that's odd. > Kelly: > > ... some nights where I have woken up, remembered that I had been > dreaming ..., gone back to sleep, ... and maybe later ... remembered > I had ... been dreaming, but remember nothing of the dream itself. > > Kelly Grosskreutz > http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova bboy_mn: The fact that he didn't remember the dream wasn't the point in the context of the original question. The point was that JKR told us about a dream of Harry's that Harry doesn't know about. I though it was odd that she would give us this information, yet keep it hidden from Harry. And what did the dream tell us? What purpose did it serve? In hindsight, we can speculate that the turban in the dream gave us insight into Quirrel being a bad guy, but many other people were in the dream as well and they didn't turn out to be harboring Voldemort. On the other hand, it does give us some insight to Harry, and is seems the typical kind of dream a person would have under a high stress situation like that. Back to the original question, "So, does the unknown narrator often highlight something Harry is oblivious to?". The answer is yes. Even the beginning of GoF has many many details about what happened at the Riddle house and Little Hangleton, many many details that certainly Harry could never have known from his dream about Little Hangleton and the Riddle house. I think that is the advantage of a third person narrator who, none the less, narrates from Harry's point of view. This narrator has insight into Harry's thoughts and feelings, as well as insight into the greater world around Harry. Sort of like the omniscience narrator. Just a thought. bboy_mn From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 13 18:53:32 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 18:53:32 -0000 Subject: Harry "Winning"/Harry Can't Plan Ahead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60312 Aldrea wrote: > Harry Can't Plan Ahead > > One of the things I noticed about GoF- Harry cannot plan ahead, > the boy just can't seem to do it. For two of the three tasks, > Harry knows what he'll be facing. During the months he has to > prepare, he procrastinates his planning and it is only because of > Crouch's cunning that Harry is prepared at all. When it comes to > quick-thinking and reacting, Harry is of course excellent at > that. But planning? Nope, doesn't seem very skilled in that > area. Also, I believe(in the first book?) there's a reference to > a chess game between Ron and Harry, at which Harry "loses >spectacularly". Perhaps one of the reasons for this loss is > Harry's inability to plan ahead, a must in chess. It seems Harry > is short-sighted in more areas than his eyes. ;) and Pip!Squeak replies: It depends what *area* of Harry's life you're talking about. When it comes to the money he needs to survive, for example, Harry is quite capable of thinking ahead - PoA, where he decides he can't afford to buy the Gobstones, or the model of the Galaxy [Ch. 4]. In that case he's planning for the next five years of Hogwarts. Equally, in Chapter 1 of PoA, Harry is doing his essays a month before the end of the school holidays. In similar circumstances, I used to leave them to the week before... Harry does procrastinate badly during Goblet of Fire. It's the very common reaction of a 14 year old boy faced with doing things that he really doesn't want to do. He has absolutely *no* desire to be in the Tournament. "he'd got through the first task, and he wouldn't have to face the second one for three months." [GoF p. 318, Ch.21]. He knows that whoever has entered his name is probably trying to kill him. Why try hard? The moral of the Tournament, for Harry, is that even though you may not want to do something, even though it may be dangerous, you still have to give it your best shot. It's the skills learnt in the Tournament that save Harry's life when he faces Voldemort. Especially 'Accio', which summons the Portkey. 'Accio', a spell suggested by Crouch-Moody. And Crouch-Moody doesn't seem at *all* surprised to see Harry back at Hogwarts, does he? Honestly, it'd almost make you think that Voldemort had a 'Plan B' ... Pip!Squeak (see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40044 for Voldemort's 'Plan B' in the Graveyard Scene of GoF. 7 days, 4 hours, 10 minutes before I find out if I'm on-target). From jodel at aol.com Fri Jun 13 19:14:20 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:14:20 EDT Subject: Chapter 14 GF, weird? Message-ID: <16f.1ff1b432.2c1b7c8c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60313 lennyb2002 asks; >>So, does the unknown narrator often highlight something Harry is oblivious to? Is the narrator sympathizing for Neville, or perhaps suggesting that Harry is missing an important clue? << Harry is certainly missing an important clue. It took falling into Dumbledore's Pensieve to get him to realize that there is something going on with Neville. And no. The narriator has *not* often highlighted things that Harry is oblivious to. But "she" has done so more than once in GoF and I think that this is a clue to *us* that she intends to do so more often in the future. We've seen the action only from Harry's point of view to this point, but the narrator is begining to draw back from that sort of tight focus on Harry -- just a bit, we're nowhere near the "omnicient narrator" yet -- as show us a little of the background action. I suspect that she is going to have to do this as the series progresses and the situation in the wizarding world worsens. She is going to have to have a way of showing the reader information that Harry has no way of learning until much later. In GoF she broadedned her focus to also give us a view of Voldemort and Wormtail, through the scar connection. But as the scope of the opposition between Voldemort and the rest of the ww grows we are almost certainly going to reach a point that we will have to see the action from the PoV of someone other than Harry or Voldemort. Particularly by Book 7 which I suspect is going to need to be choreographed from the PoVs of several separate groups leading up to the final confrontation. She is easing us into this wider view very gently, at the earliest available point in time. -JOdel From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri Jun 13 19:14:08 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 20:14:08 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Goblins References: <1055511514.7349.27522.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004a01c331df$f7488960$4e7c0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 60314 Aren't we a busy list at the moment! Sabrina wrote: >Actually, I have always had a problem with the goblins running the only >wizarding bank (p.63 SSpb). In History of Magic we hear over and over again >about Goblin rebellions all over the place. Who would put basically their >whole economy in the hands of people (beasts?) who are perhaps only waiting >for a way to overthrow the current government? > >Granted, we don't know what kind of arrangement the goblins have with the >wizarding world (peace treaties etc.) but still I think it is quite risky. Although we know that the Goblins have a turbulent history, canon doesn't say that the rebellions have been specifically against the WW. It's equally easy to say that just as the various struggles between wizarding factions have only involved the WW, then the various rebellions and struggles among the Goblins have only affected them. Meanwhile, the political and commercial relations between the two worlds have been untouched, irrespective of who has been in power in each of them. No, Goblins aren't beasts - I think they are an intelligent species with a complex society at least as complicated as the WW and probably far less comprehensible. But as far as the treaties with the WW go, they don't hold grudges and they deal fairly and equally with anyone - Voldemort has doubtless got a vault at Gringotts, maybe even next door to Harry's... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From jodel at aol.com Fri Jun 13 19:14:28 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:14:28 EDT Subject: The Mystery House (was; OOP: OoTP clip - driving me crazy!) Message-ID: <1ed.af7df2d.2c1b7c94@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60315 Where are we, and why are we in this handbasket? Okay we've got a house. To Harry it looks like the house of a Dark wizard. What does Harry know of wizarding interior design? The only wizarding house he has ever been in is the Burrow, and the Weasleys, even by wizarding standards, probably classify as a pack of raging eccentrics. Well, let that pass. The House has doorknobs with a serpent motif. Well, that's at least some help. It does strongly suggest a Slytherin connection. And it is a place currently disused, but known to Dumbledore's people (assuming that the "Molly Weasley" mentioned wasn't a polyjuiced villian leading all three of the trio into a trap). Have we finally been given some clue regarding the hypothetical "good Slytherin"? Well, we will know in just over a week. As to empty houses, we have a couple of possibilities: We could be "squatting" without the knowledge of the rightful owners, or we could be hiding out in a house which the owner has made available to Dumbledore's organization, secr etly. Okay. Who are some known or probable ex-Slytherins who would have had a house than might be currently available? In the first case we have a lengthy list of names of dead or incarcerated Slytherins who might have left a house and no other family to claim it. This could be the Lestrange's house, or that of the Wilkes' or the Rossier's. Snape might have been in a position to let people know whether the house was likely to be in use by anyone. Of course it could be his own family house, disused because he is in the School most of the year. But that's a bit obvious. In the second case; Who is around to claim the Crouch house? Is the souless husk of Barty Jr. being quietly cared for in one of the other rooms? The house has been vacant since Barty's father was sent "home" (in fact, he was being held at the Riddle House) with a case of overwork sometime between the previous Halloween and Christmas. Of course there is the hint we were given in GoF that families do not always all sort out into the same house and that someone already mentioned in the series as a Gryffindor and deffinite "good guy" is from a family which is predominently Slytherin. Or that it was a Slytherin ancestor who built the house and the doorknobs are a legacy which his Gryffindor or Ravenclaw, or even Hufflepuff decendents regard as a family in-joke. Could this be Sirius Black's house? The old Potter Hall? The Figg residence? (My vote is for the Figg residence -- just for the hell of it.) One of the *last* places it is likely to be is the Riddle House. -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Fri Jun 13 19:14:30 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:14:30 EDT Subject: Unhappy Ghosts (was; Professor Binns) Message-ID: <132.20935824.2c1b7c96@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60316 katien0w Points out: >>I, for some reason, always thought that unhappy people become ghosts:<< And goes on to say: >>If my theory is correct, then for James and Lily to *not* have returned as ghost, they must have been happy. However, I am beginning to contradict myself because IIRC, James and Lily knew that Voldemort was after them, so how could they be happy? << Well, you're on the right wavelength, but this needs some fine-tuning. Rowling has directly said that the happiest people do not become ghosts. But she never said that only people who *die* happy do not become ghosts. Happy people can be frightened or unhappy for damn good reasons, but they are still basically happy people. Take away those reason and they revert to their naturally sunny state. Moaning Myrtle would have been a miserable sad sack even if Olive Hornsby had left her strictly alone. From what we can see and have been told, Professor Binns lived out a "half life" and has gone on to unliving a "half death" without, apparantly, even noticing a difference. (Will somebody please exorcise the man and bring in a teacher who will do the subject justice?) Nearly Headless Nick has a fretful streak which was probably of longstanding and I seriously doubt that the Baron's actual manner of death had any effect whatsoever on his eventual fate. By this sort of criterion, it is unlikely that Cedric Diggory will manifest as a ghost. -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Fri Jun 13 19:14:26 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:14:26 EDT Subject: The Banking franchise (was; What's in Sirius' Vault at Gringott's? ) Message-ID: <116.249ff863.2c1b7c92@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60317 Sabrina writes: << Granted, we don't know what kind of arrangement the goblins have with the wizarding world (peace treaties etc.) but still I think it is quite risky. Any thoughts? >> Well, we were as good as told outright in the introduction of Fantastic Beasts that there has been a long history of struggle for dominence between human wizards and the goblins. And the seclusion of the wizarding world (which is maintained by all of them in a coopertive effort) is something that could not have been brought off without some pretty major negotiations and concessions along the way. I've assumed that the exclusive banking franchise was the Wizards Counsel's price for the goblin's cooperation in the project. That Binns had his 4th years writing weekly essays on goblin rebellions throughout the 18th century is a pretty strong indication that the banking franchise in itself was not enough to satisfy them all. I suspect that the goblin "government" disclaimed any responsibility in any of such rebellions with a lot of po-faced denunciations about malcontents while doing nothing to quell them. -JOdel From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 19:23:16 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 19:23:16 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Vault and Gringott's Goblins? In-Reply-To: <003801c331d5$0f122bb0$52ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60318 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" wrote: > Steve (bboy_mn) had a slight Q & A section about the Gringotts goblins. I, for quite some time, have had a question about them that > I don't think has an answer, but has disturbed me for quite some > time. > > Q: On what side, if any, were the goblins during the last war > against Voldemort? And, if they were neutral or at least not allied > with Voldemort, ... > > ...edited... > > Kelly Grosskreutz > http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova bboy_mn: When Voldemort pictures victory for himself, he pictures himself standing on the balcony of a palace, and they huddles masses are cheering his victory and bowing at his feet. Unfortunately, it takes more than standing on a balcony watching people bow to run a country. Let's look at the world that a Voldemort victory would create. A brutal world of chaos, uncertainly, and oppression, the wizard world reduced to a field of ashes, population decimated, economy and commerce in ruins, a wasteland, and you can be certain that a wasteland is not a prosperous land. You only have to look at Suddam Hussein's Iraq, Hitler's Germany, Pol Pot's Cambodia, China, The Soviet Union, North Korea, etc... to see that rule by brutal oppression is not good for the economy. True in a stituation like this, there are those who are incredably rich, but the entire middle class, which by the way sustains the economy, is lost. There is nothing left but the filthy rich and the filthy poor. Stability and a healthy prosperous economy go hand in hand, and Voldemort could never create a stable country. His brutality and oppression would bring sanctions from the greater wizard world. The greater wizard world also does not want to do business with a person who is as unstable as Voldemort, unstable people can't be depended on to pay their bills. So given the goblin's love of money, do you think they would prefer to back Voldemort's wasteland or the current wizard world's STABLE healthy and prosperous economy? Not a hard choice, I think. To some extent, I can see this contributing to Voldemort's downfall. There is on old saying, 'Tyranny is the architect of it's own doom". I think now that the existing Death Eaters have had had a chance to create stable prosperous lives for themselves, they will see that the new Voldemort war substantial threatens that security, and that realization will lead to their less than enthusiastic support for Voldemort. Tyranny is the architect of is own doom; that's the reason the evil overlord never wins. Just a thought. bboy_mn From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 19:33:47 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:33:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Mystery House In-Reply-To: <1ed.af7df2d.2c1b7c94@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030613193347.52991.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 60319 My guess is that the mystery house is someplace we haven't heard of belonging to somebody we don't know about. This is sort of in keeping with the author's habit of introducing totally new elements in each book as our view of the wizard world is slowly expanding. As this is obviously a "secret" place in some way or other, our guesses so far, all based on previously known persons is probably all totally off the mark. So, my guess is...we have absolutely no idea! My guess is that is IS involved with the Order of the Phoneix of course. That seems pretty safe. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Jun 13 19:07:03 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 19:07:03 -0000 Subject: the hidden key to Harry Potter; Soc Sci 101 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60320 I've been reading the interesting posts by Kia and Pennylin regarding the Granger book. Don't know if the Moderators will pass this, but I think it necessary to make folk aware that social attitudes and behaviour cannot be implied with impunity. By the tone and content, I would guess that you are both from West of the Water. Maybe you aren't aware that British attitudes towards religion are somewhat different to those in the USA. Over here it tends to be a very private thing and those that freely discuss or expound their religious beliefs in public are thought a bit embarassing and perhaps a bit odd by a lot of their listeners. It is also thought to be a breach of manners to imply beliefs or attitudes to someone you don't know or who hasn't publicised them. The Narnia books are reckoned to be moderately good childrens books, but because of the action, not the symbolism. Few adults read them. If I remember correctly the Inklings consisted of a lot more than two or three writers, most of whom drifted off when they realised all that was happening was the release of a lot of hot air. So JKR attends Church of Scotland services occasionally - I wouldn't read too much into that - belief in a Deity yes, but more would be considered an intrusion. Formal church attendance has little to do with your personal religious leanings over here. (I'm talking of Protestant attitudes here. Other churches I can't speak for. ) Paul Johson in his ( Very Good ) History of the English, reckoned that historically, we considered that religion was just something to do on Sundays. Even when there were fines for non-attendance for church services, attendance was still only about 50%. It's no co-incidence that the stricter Puritan sects considered us a Godless society and stampeded onto the Mayflower. They had freedom of worship here, but they got nowhere with influencing the rest of us. My advice - be very cautious discussing a Brits supposed religious beliefs, especially when they are being expounded by some one who may not appreciate the social nuances of a foreign society. Kneasy red that From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 19:46:51 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 19:46:51 -0000 Subject: Mystery & Suspense (was Chapter 14...) In-Reply-To: <16f.1ff1b432.2c1b7c8c@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60321 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jodel at a... wrote: > lennyb2002 asks; > > ... The narriator has *not* often highlighted things that Harry is > oblivious to. But "she" has done so more than once in GoF and I > think that this is a clue to *us* that she intends to do so more > often in the future. ...edited... > > I suspect that she is going to have to do this as the series > progresses and the situation in the wizarding world worsens. She is > going to have to have a way of showing the reader information that > Harry has no way of learning until much later. > > ...edited... > > -JOdel bboy_mn: The difference between Mystery and Suspense- Mystery is when you know what happened, but you don't know 'who done it'. As the story unfolds the mystery is revealed. Suspense is when you know 'who done it', but you don't know how or when the will 'catch him'. I think what we are seeing is JKR adding more suspense to the story, and that seems to fit where the story appears to be going. In the beginning, we are discovering the mysteries of the wizard's world and Harry's life. Now we know 'who done it'; Voldomort done it, and we are going to see more of what Voldemort has done and is doing, the suspense will be in hanging on the edge of our seat wondering what Harry and friends are going to do about it. How are they going to stop it? How are they going to fix it? I can feel the suspense building already. Just a thought. bboy_mn From RhianynTheCat at aol.com Fri Jun 13 19:14:02 2003 From: RhianynTheCat at aol.com (RhianynTheCat at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:14:02 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Hidden Key to Harry Potter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60322 In a message dated 6/13/2003 6:29:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, pennylin at swbell.net writes: > Harry is on a journey of self-exploration, making choices about who he is > and what to do and how to react in situations (particularly crisis > situations). It is change, the consequences of our choices, that interests Granger the > most though. Rhianyn stretches luxuriously, but refrains from sharpening her claws as she does so: Yes, well, aren't _most_ religions about themes like this? As a practicing pagan and a bit of a scholar (if I do unattractively say it myself) on the Celtic Old Religion I can easily draw parallels between my religion and the Potterverse as well. But then, so much of Christianity is drawn from far earlier relgions anyway. IMO the reason so many relgions have such common themes is that mankind, for all its different cultures, is always seeking to address and understand those very things. So, of course, any work of fiction that addresses those great commonalties is going to appeal to a very wide cross section of readers. Trying to co-opt a writer and her works for one religion is as pointless, I say, as trying to ban her books for the identical reason. I once went to a writers conference as a rather younger kitling. I was, in fact, the youngest there and quite impressed with myself for being accepted and quite intent on impressing the august god-like personages who were instructors there. In fact I was so very overwhelmed to be in a group headed by Richard Ford who was my literary hero of the moment, that I spend untold hours on the manuscript we were to critique in that session. I was determined to draw every possible nuance and connotation from that manuscript. All I really remember of it now was that it centered (I thought) on a man and his pet bull. I went off on an impressive bull chase that made this bull the symbol of all things male, the mans wife's unhappiness about the bull was her way of trying to castrate the man and on and on and on ad nauseum. I held forth for some time and eventually sat back quite pleased with the stunned looks of revelation around the table. And into the reverent silence spoke the author of the piece (not Mr Ford thankfully) who said "Wow, that bull was a cow until the third draft". To paraphrase Mr. Faulkner, I believe, sometimes a bull is just a bull (or maybe a cow). And most times wondering what the writer's "agenda" is is not nearly as important as concentrating on what you, as an individual, get from a story. I adored C.S. Lewis' Narnia as a child and still do. I was not then nor am I now a Christian. I would bet that Mr. Lewis would have been no less gratified by the great joy he brought/brings to me as a pagan than he would have been were I Christian. A great storyteller is, above all else, just that, a storyteller. A preacher is an entirely different thing all together. :::Curls fluffy black tail about herself just _so_ and returns to napping by the fire:::: ^ ^ =( * .*)= [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annettehamel at hotmail.com Fri Jun 13 19:39:08 2003 From: annettehamel at hotmail.com (Annette Hamel) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 19:39:08 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 14 GF, weird? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 60323 Hi folks, first-time poster here :) bboy_mn wrote: <<