[HPforGrownups] Re: [Snapefans] The Old Snape Loves Lily Theory

Sun Jun 1 18:23:46 UTC 2003

No: HPFGUIDX 59103

Amanda and Koinonia were speaking:
>
> > (1)Would Snape still love Lily? Why? They never had a relationship.
> > They were in their early teens. Snape is now in his 30's. Lily is
> > dead. She has been dead for many, many years. After all these years
> > Snape couldn't get a life? Will he ever? What is he living for? Has
> > he never even looked at another woman?
>
>Well, for one, I have known a couple of people who had one great love. For
>whatever reason, they were now alone. They chose to not pursue another.
>
>It is a current American cultural thing, I think, to cast "having a life" 
>in
>terms of having romantic/sexual relationships. But it *is* possible to have
>a completely full life without that. Snape *has* a life. He is a very
>involved administrator of Hogwarts. From the tangential references we have
>seen, he seems to have a good working relationship with the other teachers
>(staffroom scene; McGongall's references to what sound, like me, to Snape
>digging her about Quidditch, which to me says they have a friendly
>professional rivalry). He enjoys the solid trust and respect of a man he,
>himself, solidly respects (Dumbledore). And he knows he has a significant
>part to play in upcoming Voldemort-troubles. Where's a lack of life?
>
Let me say that I *completely* agree with Amanda here about the general 
underlying principle.  "having a life" does not mean "having somebody, just 
anybody".  It's entirely possible that Snape only ever loved Lily.  I think 
that that may be due more to what happened with the DeathEaters and that 
whole mysterious time there than any lack of desire for "a life", though.  I 
believe that Snape *cannot* leave Hogwarts because only there is he under 
Dumbledore's protection.  Note that he never turns up in Diagon Alley over 
the school break, although it stands to reason he might need ingredients 
that he could purchase there; nor does he seem to go into Hogsmeade (one of 
my friends pointed out his venture to the Shrieking Shack as a possible 
violation, but we think that since the SS was taken over for the use of 
Lupin, perhaps protection is extended there as well, and it still counts as 
"part of Hogwarts" - or just that Snape was so overwhelmed by a chance for 
discovery and/or revenge that he took a very stupid risk).  I think that 
Snape's "life", such as it was, was far more destroyed by his association 
with the DEs and then his break from them than necessarily being in love 
with Lily.  (And I am someone who thinks that his weird attitude about Harry 
and James is due to the fact that he was in love with Lily, that she was the 
love of his life - yes, some people do meet the love of their life really 
young and don't realize until later that that was the greatest love and the 
best match they would experience for any one of a number of reasons - and 
moreover that he feels that Lily's death was needless and due to her being 
with James, and that he could have saved her had she been with him [re:  all 
the discussion about Voldemort trying to get Lily to move out of the way - 
the implication is that her death was needless].)

But consider what kind of "prospect" Snape would be to any woman in the WW, 
even if he could leave:  what makes you think that a witch from either 
"side" wouldn't hesitate about getting involved with him because they either 
wouldn't be sure where he stood, or feared his past association with 
Voldemort?  There are some practical reasons at work here, guys, which do 
guide older relationships.  Snape is not presented as a very appealing 
fellow, either.

But the thing about "having a life":  some of the people I know who least 
have a life do have a spouse or boyfriend.  Having a life is much more about 
having a three-dimensional existence with friends, meaningful work, 
interests and passions, and perhaps a relationship than just a 
romantic/sexual partnership alone.

> > (2)Did Snape ask Voldemort to spare any other person? How about
> > James?  Some believe Snape is the spy who told Dumbledore that
> > Voldemort was after the Potters. Is Snape the kind of person who
> > would stand by and let James and Harry be killed but beg for the life
> > of Lily?
>
>Probably. From my reading of his character, he is also practical. He had a
>cover to maintain, and he also probably knew that there was *zero* chance
>that Voldemort would spare James, but a possibility that he'd spare Lily.
>Spies have to make the best of the situations they have.
>
I agree:  Snape is practical.  He might have figured that saving Lily was 
worth it - better just two lives lost than one.  Remember, he couldn't know 
in advance that Harry would live:  that was a colossal surprise to everyone.

> > Would Dumbledore trust a man who only seemed to
> > care if Lily lived?
>
>See above. Snape may have had no choice, or have known that there was no
>hope. And Dumbledore trusts a man who would have given Sirius to the
>dementors.
>
I think Dumbledore would trust a man who tried to save what he could.  Think 
of officers in the military who have to make decisions about sacrificing 
three men to save 80.  They're considered highly trustworthy if they are 
dedicated to achieving the mission no matter the cost in lives.  And the WW 
is in very little less than a war situation during Voldemort's lifetime.

>I have noted that Dumbledore seems to allow life situations--unfairness,
>etc.--to occur and be learning experiences at Hogwarts, as well as the
>curriculum. This is not something that American schools allow (or something
>they try to weed out). Personally, I think that letting children grow up
>with the expectation that things are supposed to be fair and they're
>guaranteed a level playing field is a massive disservice to them. So
>Dumbledore may indeed have known Snape's failings and hired him anyway.
>These children will have to deal with unreasonable people in the future; 
>may
>as well start now, while they're children.
>
If anyone else besides me reads British boarding school books (a subgenre of 
juvenile literature, and one in which I would not hesitate to classify HP), 
they will be struck at how the subculture of the children is pretty much 
allowed to run itself.  Wilting violets are not encouraged, nor are kids 
encouraged to run whining to mommy and daddy with every squabble or feeling 
that the teacher or prefect wasn't fair; they are very empowered compared 
with the way American children are depicted, and indeed act (I've never 
cared for much American juvenile literature of modern times which seems 
little better than propaganda aimed at how important it is to run to mommy 
and daddy with every problem, and they will wisely solve it - there are just 
some lives and families where the parents are *not* a reliable resource, or 
don't know all the answers), and are expected to largely solve their own 
interpersonal troubles.  coddled children are discouraged.

> > There are just so many posibilites. I just don't want to see Snape as
> > a person who just can't get over a woman he never had. I would like
> > him to be much stronger than that.
>
>Interesting. I see that *as* strength, that he can be faithful to a love
>given over time and through life. I don't see it as failing to "get over," 
>I
>see it as a strong enough character to be true.
>
Same here, Amanda.  It actually takes a lot of strength to not just grab 
someone else because they're a warm body.

>As I said above, American culture tends to put romantic/sexual concerns
>first on the list. Not everyone does that, it's not the "normal" way to 
>look
>at things, it's simply one way. Plenty of people devote their lives to one
>other person, or one faith, or one ideal, which leaves no room for anything
>else in their lives. I don't see anything weak about it at all.
>
I agree.  The American culture is very dilettantish and "disposable", 
including about relationships; and that tends to discourage any kind of 
depth or meaning.  As Lila Wallace, the wife of the founding editor of 
"Reader's Digest" once put it, "If you can live without a [wo]man, then why 
live with him [her]?"

I personally have very old-fashioned values about this, and so Snape being 
that devoted to Lily rings true.  There might be some other overlying things 
to the psychology as well (not to mention the other issues about Snape 
himself above that I outlined - I think that failing to evaluate Snape as a 
probably not veyr appealing partner is a serious oversight):  the feeling 
that he couldn't save Lily through all his best efforts, and that he would 
just damage, doom or destroy another woman, perhaps.

Thanks,
Felinia

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