Names in goblet

[Tom Wall]

No: HPFGUIDX 59871


JDR writes:

This is something that really bothers me, and I have the sinking 
feeling that it is merely a plot hole; namely, how dumb does a magic 
object have to be to be fooled into thinking there could be a 
*fourth" entrant in a *tri*-wizard tournament?

Steve (bboy_mn) reasoned:
I don't see it as that hard. While the Goblet does have some
intelligence, there is nothing to suggest that any magical object, 
the Sorting Hat, the 'living' paintings, the Goblet, whatever, has 
the full congnitive, analytical, rational, reasoning thought 
processes of a human being. 

The Goblet's job, for purposes of illustration, is to pick the most
able and qualified champion from among the list of candidates from
EACH school whether it is 3 schools or 10 schools. I think picking 
the champion from the candidates is where most of the Goblet 
intelligence lies, not in evealuating the proper number of schools.
<snip rest>

Sherrie appended:
And "Moody" DOES say that it took "a really strong Confundus 
Charm..."

I, Tom, add:
I think that Steve is on the money here, although I'd like to refine 
a little bit. The way I see it, the Goblet of Fire is not 
necessarily 'intelligent,' in that it (paraphrasing Steve here) has 
the ability to "congnitively analyze or reason." 

IMHO, the Goblet doesn't know anything about the word-deconstruction 
of 'Tri-wizard' - it simply is magically enchanted to select a 
certain number of names from the submissions. IMHO, it is like a 
computer program.

This, of course, contrasts with the Sorting Hat, which does express 
opinions and has a demonstrated ability to use language and think on 
its own. I believe that it has more intelligence than the Goblet of 
Fire, because the Sorting Hat writes a new song every year, and 
therefore possesses, to some degree, the ability to understand 
language, definitions, rhyme and meter, as well as to assess 
personalities and to compare those personalities with the specific 
requirements of the four Hogwarts founders. The Sorting Hat, it 
would seem to me, is far more intelligent than the Goblet of Fire.

The canon doesn't imply that the Goblet is necessarily intelligent 
at all, indeed, what it suggests to me is that the Goblet simply 
serves as a magical and impartial barometer of pure magical talent 
and ability.

In GoF, Ch.16, 255 (US,) Dumbledore calls the Goblet 'impartial.'

In GoF, Ch.17, 279 (US,) Moody refers to it as ' very powerful 
magical object!' He then goes on to say that 'It would have needed 
an exceptionally strong Confundus Charm to bamboozle that object 
into forgetting that only three schools compete in the tournament.'

So, what we have here isn't necessarily an object that sits down and 
reasons out, per se, the best way to handle the TWT applications. I 
look at it sort of as a 'programmed' object: it knows that there are 
three schools, and that it has to select one submission from each, 
and presumably has a particular set of criteria for selecting that, 
I'm hoping, involves magical talent. 

The use of the Confundus Charm, therefore, would probably make the 
Goblet 'forget' some of its original programming... not necessarily 
reprogram it entirely. 

For instance, although he doesn't go into it (and to draw a 
distinction that may or may not be relevant,) I don't think that 
Crouch altered the restrictions to 'four schools' from 'three,' 
rather that he eliminated the restriction of 'three' with the 
Confundus Charm. So, in theory, perhaps more students could have 
been submitted under other schools' names. 


Sherrie wrote:
Perhaps those who started the tournament allowed for that in the 
original spell - realizing that the WW would grow, & new schools 
might be worthy of competing in the future?

On that subject, Steve posited:
At some point in the future Russia, Spain, Italy, or Scandinavia 
could have a magic school that advances to the ranks of the existing 
three school.

I, Tom, add:
I interpret the three schools in the TWT as sort-of akin to the Ivy 
League in the U.S. Of course, there are many schools of (or even, 
above) Ivy-League-level, academically speaking. But the league is 
more than that - it also has a distinction of history, and it's own 
particular (restricted) competition circuit for sports. And we also 
know that there will be no new additions to the Ivy League, no 
matter how many more MITs and Stanfords arise. 

So, my take is that even if there are new prestigious schools in the 
European WW in the future (and we've no indication that there aren't 
now or won't be later) I'm not sure that the time-honored, seven-
hundred-year-old tradition of the TWT would be altered to accomodate 
any upstart institutions. 

And of course, we have not been told that these three schools are 
the *only* European magic schools, simply that the competition was 
established between "the three largest Eurpoean schools of 
wizardry." GoF, Ch.12, 187 (US) This, of course, suggests that there 
are other schools, but that they're not considered prestigious or 
significant enough to compete in the TWT.

Oh, and on the prospect of altering the Goblet's 'programming' to 
accomodate additional schools permanently, I'm not sure if that 
would work or not - after all, they didn't alter the Goblet as far 
as restricting ages... Dumbledore had to do that manually with 
his 'Age Line.' 

If there *had* been an easy way to restrict age through the Goblet, 
then fourth school or not, Crouch!Moody wouldn't have been able to 
submit Harry - he would have simply been rejected, unless of course, 
Crouch had slipped Harry some Aging Potion with his pumpkin juice. 

-Tom