Older Snape Father Figure info, if anyone cares. Long.

[Amanda Geist]

No: HPFGUIDX 61835

Given the kazillions of posts, I don't know who said this...

> >Oh! How about this? Harry's_New_Father/Brother_Figure!Snape - Any
> takers?

If anyone's interested, here are post numbers and summaries for the older
"Snape as a Father Figure" threads. There's a lot of good points made there,
which you newer guys might want to see...especially from our new post-book-5
perspective.

I had originally compiled these months ago for an update of the Snape FAQ,
yet to be completed. It includes quotes because the lady who wrote the
current Snape FAQ (Porphyria) uses them in post references, instead of just
giving a number.

Scanning down it, there's also some prophetic stuff about why Snape has the
attitude toward Hogwarts that he seems to--it's his home, he protects it
from rulebreakers because his own home sucked. I left it in, for that
reason. Eerie.

Enjoy or delete.

~Amanda

<begin old stuff>
The father figure thread has had four incarnations, two of which were
extensive. I have an enhanced appreciation for you active FAQ'ers.

Incarnation 1

14593 -- My response to a Chapter Summary, which asked questions about the
father-son relationships in HP, specifically in GoF. I said that Harry is in
an artificial situation, where a true father is not present, and "the
relationship between a father and a son is tremendously complex, and must of
necessity have both postive and negative aspects for a balanced maturity.
Harry has several adult males in his life, who fulfill portions of the role
of father....And Snape is the negative aspect. He's the one who doesn't
understand, who sets curfews, who won't let you explain, the one you just
*hate* and can't wait to move out of his house. I think together, these men
are providing Harry with what he needs, emotionally---and you need the
negative, as well as the positive. I doubt this is deliberate on their
parts--I think it's just the way they each are--but I think this is how
Harry's psyche is accepting them. He has not considered Snape a physical
threat to him since the first book; he really reacts to him the way a boy
does who does not get along with his father."

14814 -- MMFanfic agreed, and added "Speaking of father and son
relationship, I think you've missed the most prominent one in the series:
Snape/Dumbledore. .It's interesting because it contrasts with the
relationship Harry has with Dumbledore. (I don't buy the theory that Snape
feels threaten by Harry's closeness to Dumbledore, mainly because the two
relationships are entirely different matters.) Snape/Dumbledore has a grown
son and father relationship. Dumbledore looked on with amusement (and
exasperation) the way Snape acts but never 'order' him; he merely offers
gentle advice, as an equal or an older, wiser man."

Subthread, Snape motivation (expulsion = worse fate than death)-- you
probably already got this

14815 -- Magda Grantwich wrote: Has anyone noticed how fanatical Snape is in
his reverence for Hogwarts? Rules are everything. And he can come up with no
worse punishment for Harry - who he loathes - than expulsion from Hogwarts:
a fate he seems to regard as the equivalent of exile.

14821 -- Me: Very, very good observation. It's true. Outer darkness,
ultimate fate to wreak upon Harry = expulsion. And Sirius says Snape was
always trying to get the Marauders expelled, too. So was Hogwarts the home
that Snape didn't have where he came from? Have all his actions been
somewhat "protective" of Hogwarts, too--even the bad ones? Was he trying to
get disrespectful troublemakers out of Hogwarts where they didn't belong,
instead of it being a personal dislike? Was he involved with the Death
Eaters for a similar reason? Great insight, I'd never thought of that.

Morphing into Subthread (why does Snape dislike Hermione), you probably
already got this, too

14836 -- Thinking along these lines, Doreen asked, "Why does he also
antagonize Hermione, who is striving to be THE Hogwarts prize pupil?"

14842 -- Magda: Because she's part of Harry's gang.

14847 -- Brill suggested, "Has anyone considered the possibility that at
least part of Snape's animosity toward H/H stems from a "drill sergeant"
mentality? I.e., being harder (in this case, MUCH harder) on those students
in which he recognizes potential for great achievement, encouraging them to
push themselves along harder?

Further morphing into Subthread (why did Snape join the DEs), you probably
got this, *too*

14927 -- Schlobin/Susan McGee/She Who Types With Ellipsis, responding to
Magda's 14815, said "Fascinating. Could it be that Snape became involved
with the Death-Eaters for the very reason that many people get involved with
cults, gangs, etc. --- that they have had no roots, family, support....this
would cover his Hogwarts obsession and his DE connection..."

14956 -- aprilgc at hotmail.com said "I actually like the thought about
Hogwarts being "home" for Snape (and leaving Hogwarts being the reason he
joined the DEs). People who feel they have no place to belong do tend to get
sucked into cults, don't they?"

Incarnation 2
27617 -- "Father figures revisited" was a retitled response to someone; I
said "Snape. Father figure, mostly the negative connotations. The aspect of
father that you rebel against, the one who sets curfews, who doesn't listen,
who just doesn't understand, who doesn't even want to, the one you come to
appreciate only much, much later. Resented, but respected. This is the sort
of relationship where a bond grows, but when (sometimes if) discovered,
comes as a surprise, even a shock."

27619 -- Leslie agreed and did some psycho-stuff: "In talking with a friend
of mine years ago, he told me that men "find themselves" through first
rebelling against their father figure. Through this rebelling against their
fathers, they end up coming to a deeper understanding of manhood and
fatherhood"

27681 --  Tabouli chimed in, "I have observed at least three men having
violent backlashes against their fathers in their late teens (one of these
men being my brother), rejecting everything he stands for, can't bear the
thought of ending up like him, etc.etc., who all miraculously came around by
their mid-twenties, having not only abandoned their resentment, but also
completely imitating and affirming behaviour from their fathers which they
previously condemned! Fascinating..."

(a couple more general agreements and the thread was hijacked by Sirius
people)

Incarnation 3:

37958 -- Archgarchus makes comment in a long post that "despite all of
Snape's disagreeableness and rancor, he is really the only true "father"
figure in the series to Harry....it is Snape who actively and consistently
protects Harry...I believe that part of JKR's "conclusion" to the series in
Book 7 will be Harry's eventual understanding of Snape and Snape's behavior.
Part of growing up is realizing that surface appearances are not all that
they appear to be." (she/he? also reveals herself to be totally sold on
Snape/Lily, by wondering the same things I wonder...LOL)

37961 -- Carole refutes this mention rather vehemently, apparently thinking
that being a father figure involves some intent to be so or is defined by
showing someone how to love or be loved, and in 37974 tries to clarify what
"father figure" means to her and thus why it's so incomprehensible.

37969, 37971 -- some general discussion, nothing quote-worthy

37985 -- Me: "A clarification, by the way--Snape as a father figure, at
least in my usage of this phrase, refers to Snape filling some aspect of the
role in Harry's psyche, whether perceived consciously or not. I am not
talking about Snape being aware of this or casting himself in this role."
and then I quote my earlier posts, being too frazzled to reword it again.

37988 -- Pippin observes, "Even a loving father may not always seem so in a
child's perception. IMO,Snape embodies the rule-enforcing, protective
aspects of fatherhood, which may seem unreasonable,harsh and demanding even
when they are well-meant. To the child, the loving father and the demanding
father seem to be two different people, one benign and the other not, and so
they are represented in fantasy."

37999 -- Exploration of the idea by Hana, for/against, getting into
motivation and away from the point

38001 -- Great statement by Archgarcus, in line with Pippin: "Just because a
father figure is not "Ward Cleaver" does not mean that he is not a father
figure."

38016 -- Marianne says, in response to observations in 38009 & 38013 about
how Harry reacts differently to chastisement from Sirius, Lupin, and Snape,
"Part of being an effective father-figure is the ability to guide someone
when they are following the wrong path. Or to try to correct improper or
dangerous behavior. Or simpy to let a child know that their actions are
wrong and that they have not behaved in the way that's expected of them.
However, that message has to be delivered effectively in order for the child
to learn the lesson. Harry's problen is that he is willing to be guided by
Remus and Sirius, but they are not present day-to-day. Snape is there, but
Harry still sees him as more adversary than ally."

38022 -- I respond to Marianne, "Firstly, this sounds like you think Snape
is *trying* to be an effective father figure...I think the idea that he
could be considered as such would horrify him, if it even occurred to him.
Second, nobody said he was an *effective* father figure. I said he was a
father figure. The aspect of fatherhood that I believe he's standing in for,
in Harry's psyche, is the aspect that is least effective anyway...the "do
what I say because I say so" father...This is the father who has the desire
to protect a child, and the authority to take steps to do so, but the
complete inability to connect with the child to communicate anything; thus
the efforts generally produce rebellion and estrangement."

38029 -- Rita the Catlady says, "I don't share the faith, widelly expressed
on this thread, that the negative father always has good *intentions* toward
the child, much less that the child will always grow up to realise that the
negative father had good *results*." That said, she goes on to condemn
Vernon Dursley for total lack of good intention, and state that Snape's
intentions towards Harry are ambivalent, to say the least.

38043 -- Carole asks again, "why do we need to squish Snape into a father
figure role at all? That is obviously not his intent and not anything Harry
would welcome in the least... why oh why does this have to be translated
into some sort of either benevolent or malevolent fatherly figure."

38058 -- Pippin responds, "Because Harry is so emotionally engaged with
Snape," and does a brilliant analysis of this. "..Snape also provides a
positive role model for fatherhood. Others have pointed out that so far
Sirius and Lupin haven't had any real conflict with Harry. He's been willing
to accept all their judgements, despite some mild resentment. I wish, as a
parent, that I were always so convincing and my children were so receptive.
But because children have the right to be kids, and refuse to see reason
even when it is pointed out to them, a parent sometimes has to thwart the
child. To be an effective parent one has to be willing to endure some
bitterness and some shrill yells of "I hate you!" without giving in or
giving up. Who's modeling that behavior? Snape."

38084 -- Yaay! for Gwen's neat summary: "... let me point out that whether
either Snape or Harry *wants* this relationship to exist is actually
irrelevant...Harry's subconscious will fill in the gaps in his psyche by
supplying the behaviour roles of those around him, in a position to
influence his conduct, for good or ill. Whether it is welcome or intended is
not the point. The point is that as a strong, older, male force in Harry's
life, especially one who represents authoritarian rule, Snape *will* make an
impact and fulfill one aspect of the father figure."

38104 -- I break list rules by doing nothing but cheering Gwen and pointing
everyone back at her post

Incarnation 4 (actually, one random independent mention that didn't generate
any discussion)

38514 -- Theresnothingtoit says, "...some of Snapes reactions are incredibly
parental...I can see Snape as the type of father who will ask twenty
questions before he would let his son out the door: where are you going,
what are you doing, who are you going with and do I know them, when are you
coming back etc. etc."

And one random question: I saw the great Snape discussion in 38514, having
to do with equating Snape to Satan as found in the Book of Job (the post has
the link). Which prompts me to ask--are there links to any of the great
literary essays, like the Job one and Peg Kerr's stuff? In Fantastic Posts,
I mean?

~Amanda (who just noticed *you* wrote that, how cool is that?)

<end old stuff>


>
> Hands up like Hermione!  Snapeologists (sp?) are picking up all sort
> of subtle evidence to back the 'Snape-is-softening-on-Harry' from
> OoP.
>
> I'm wondering who teaches Occlumency to Snape because it appears
> that you need a partner to learn it.  Dumbledore seems to be the
> most likely candidate because it's been mentioned that he's great at
> mind-reading (Sorry, Severus.  I'm just a simple Muggle that can't
> spell) and you do need to test yourself against the best if he wants
> to block out Voldie.
>
>
>       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
>
> Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File!
> http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin
>
> Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material
from posts to which you're replying!
>
> Is your message...
> An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to
HPFGU-Announcements.
> Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
> Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
> None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
> Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves,
and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the
Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com
>
> Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> ____________________________________________________________
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>