[HPforGrownups] Re: OoP: I'll do it: In defense of James (LONG)

[Jenserai Bariman]

No: HPFGUIDX 62757

Sarah:
OK, I'm going to have to defend James here.
>After Lily defended Snape, he didn't
>even acknowledge her help.  He addressed James, and said "I don't
>need help from filthy little Mudbloods like her!" (pg. 648, US ed.)
>That's the equivalent of the N word.  And this was during
>Voldemort's reign of terror.  Snape was in Slytherin, and had the
>very Slytherin attitude towards muggle-born wizards.  During V's
>reign of terror, this is definitely telling behavior.  Snape was
>evil at one point; there is NO denying that.
>

Me:
I hardly see a "muggle-lover" surviving in Slytherin during the reign of 
terror. I don't think it likely that anyone from that house would openly 
sympathize with muggles. It's gryffindors who brashly blurt out what they 
think is right without a second thought as to the consequences. BTW, I'm not 
saying that Snape would have crusaded for the fair treatment of muggle-borns 
if he'd had the chance (although, I'm not sure you can rule out the 
possibility!). I'm just saying that, as with the scene in which Harry tried 
to tell Snape about his vision of Voldemort torturing Black (OOP pg 745, US 
hardcover), Snape cannot always show his true feelings.

I'd also like to repeat that Snape, as a Slyth, was hardly in a position to 
be able to accept help from a Gryffindor, Muggle-born, Girl.

>The other thing, despite his faults as a youth, Sirius did
>acknowledge that what he did to Snape was wrong in OoP.

He says he's not proud of it. Quickly. Defensively.
I didn't see any feeling of remorse for what he had done.

>Lupin and
>Sirius both are trying to explain that one memory of Snape's is not
>indicative of who James was.   I think that whatever he said about
>Snape during their time at Hogwarts was probably true.  Lupin and
>Sirius both have the same views of Snape while they were at
>Hogwarts: he hung out with a lot of death eaters,

Where were those death eaters in the pensieve scene?

>he hated James
>since first year, and he was extremely interested in the dark arts.

Interest in does not equal use of.

>In PoA, Lupin tries to be civil with Snape.  Snape doesn't do the
>same; he even wants Lupin to go to Azkaban (PoA, pg. 359 US ed).
>That's not actions of a great guy.  Also, we have NO idea what
>happened before this one incident, as bad as it seems.

Had Snape done something to deserve being humiliated like that, I rather 
think Reamus or Black would have mentioned it. The only motive we have is 
that Snape  e x i s t e d.

>Lupin and
>Sirius both defend James by telling Harry that Snape still tried to
>hex/curse James at any opportunity.

So would I, if they did that to _me_.

>Snape still sounds like Draco
>to me.
>

Actually, Draco seems to spend most of his time thinking up ways to 
humiliate Harry.

>Now, we also have other's views of the Marauders during their time
>at Hogwarts.  Rosemarta, in PoA, finds it hard to believe that
>Sirius could be evil.   The teachers had fond memories of both James
>and Sirius.  Dumbledore does, too.

Yes, Padfoot and Prongs were quite the star students, weren't they. Smart, 
brave, handsome, charismatic, good at quidditch. I still wonder why 
Dumbledore didn't do anything about the way they were treating Snape. Until 
we get more information, I'm going to call it another miscalculation on his 
part, and he didn't realize that it was going way to far until the Prank.

>Keep in mind that Dumbledore
>trusts Snape, despite the fact he used to be a death eater.  In my
>opinion, how others viewed the Marauders is extremely important on
>what they were really like.  Combined with how Sirius, Lupin, and
>Snape act NOW, I think we have an insight into how they behaved at
>Hogwarts.
>

Why? They all have twenty years more worth of life experiences that effect 
they way they act.

>Lupin - It didn't seem like he ever participated in humiliating
>Snape.  From that memory, he didn't actively help, nor did he stop
>it.  He tried to pretend that it wasn't happening.  Now, as an
>adult, he has tried to be civil with Snape, despite Snape's
>prejudices against him for being a werewolf.

I wonder where _that_ prejudice came from... especially if Snape thought 
Lupin was in on the Prank

>He seems to be the
>most mature of the group, and the only one who let his thoughts
>guide his actions, instead of his emotions.
>
>James - He utterly hates the dark arts; he fought against Voldemort
>and eventually gave his life to protect his wife and son.  At
>Hogwarts, he probably hated them, too.  (I bet his parents raised
>him to hate the dark arts.)

Why is hating something just because you were raised to a good thing? What 
exactly are the Dark Arts anyway? Do they _have_ to be used for evil?

>Yes, he liked attention, but so does
>Ron.

Of course Ron would like the attention. He's standing in so many people 
shadows, he rarely ever gets to see the spotlight. James on the other hand 
_owned_ the spotlight. It's like if Harry started purposefully using his 
fame to get his way - like Draco uses his fathers power and money.

>Yes, he humiliated Snape.  But Harry and Ron humiliate Draco
>all the time, because Draco obviously is a follower of Voldemort.

The pensive scene is Black and Potter hurling spells at Severus while Peter 
jeers from the sidelines. The usual confrontation between Harry and Draco 
includes HRH and DCG. Draco usually starts the humiliation/taunting game 
first.

>(The ferret scence?  Ron and Harry loved it!)  Whatever they did to
>humiliate Snape, they didn't physically attack him.

"'Impedimenta' he [Black] said, pointing his wand at Snape, who was knocked 
off his feet"
And while he is _attached_ to the ground and _cannot_ reach his wand:
"'Wash out your mouth,' said James coldly. 'Scourgify!' Pink bubbles 
streamed from Snape's mouth at once; the froth was covering his lips, making 
him gag, choking him --"

If. this. is. not. a. physical. attack. what. is.

>During V's
>reign, who knows what type of people would annoy someone who
>actively fights against the dark arts?  We have no idea who he hexes
>in hallways; Lily only says he hexes people who annoy him.  Well,
>Harry and Ron hex people who annoy them, too.

Really. Mostly I see them glaring or seething in fury. They do not actually 
hex people that often, and not with _extreme_ provocation.

>Hey, the twins hex
>anyone!  All their practical jokes, they hex a LOT of people to get
>a laugh.  They put poisons in some of their Snackboxes so people can
>make themselves sick. We don't know if this is what Lily is talking
>about or not.

The twins most common victims are those in they're own house. Everyone gets 
a laugh when someone turns into a bird or something. I think testing their 
new get-out-of-class-free kits on first years was out of line. But even 
Harry realizes that James and Sirius were not like Fred and George (OOP, pg 
653, US hardcover).

>We DO know that James was a trouble maker who made
>people laugh.

Yes, in a cruel and sadistic way. On the other hand the victims of Fred and 
George's jokes often laugh too.

>We have no idea how he treats other people aside from
>Snape.

He hexes those who annoy him. I think that's a good clue that he does not 
mean them to laugh.

>And let's face it, at this time, Snape was well onto his way
>to becoming a death eater.
>

No. Lets not. There is absolutely nothing to support that statement. He was 
minding his own business. Reading. They saw him. They attacked him. Because 
they were bored. This event might well have been what made him look for 
people who could protect him. Who would accept him.

>Sirius - He strikes me as a spoiled rich kid who has no idea about
>the consequences of his actions.  No excuse for him.  But he has
>grown up, and did tell Harry that what he did to Snape was wrong.
>

No he didn't. I covered this earlier in the post.

>Snape - We don't know much about his early childhood.  We saw his
>overbearing father yell at his mother while Snape cried in a
>corner.  Suggests an abusive father, but all we really know is that
>his mother cowered before his shouting father.  Hermione has cowered
>before Harry when Harry started yelling.

We know that his father shouted at his mother and made her cry in front of 
their son. This is far different from a shouting matched between children.

>Snape alone in a dark
>bedroom shooting down flies: he likes to pick of insects when he's
>bored.

Never squashed a fly then? Or did you once and then felt guilty?

>A gilr laughing at Snape trying to mount a bucking
>broomstick: if you didn't like Snape, it'd be funny.  If Harry
>watched Malfoy trying to mount a bucking broomstick, the trio would
>laugh long and hard.  He was the object of humiliation at the hands
>of Sirius and James.  As soon as James addresses Snape, in a pretty
>mean way, Snape goes for his wand ASAP.  James takes away his wand
>and prevents Snape from getting it by using the impedimenta spell.
>Snape "let out a stream of mixed swearwords and hexes" in response.
>(Proof that Snape DOES no quite a few hexes and curses while at
>Hogwarts.  Evidence that Sirius might be telling the truth that
>Snape knew more hexes and curses when he entered than even seventh
>years knew.)

Harry also knows many more hexes than he should. He has used them. Aside 
from cruciatus, I think most of us are rather proud that Harry is able to 
use these in combat.

>Then James proceeds to humiliate Snape.  But, Snape
>tried to physically attack James in response: "there was a flash of
>light and a gash appeared on the side of James's face, spattering
>his robes with blood."  (pg. 647) Snape gets humiliated, and he goes
>for blood while his opponents back was turned.   Personally, I think
>that was an inappropriate response.  Why didn't he just try and get
>James's wand?

Again, they did physically attack him. If I were tied to the ground, choked 
and facing two opponents, and would do anything necessary to get away once I 
got my hands on a weapon.

>
>Now look at how he responded to Lily's help: he won't even talk to
>her, but tells James that she's a filty Mudblood.  Not the signs of
>a very nice person.  And during V's reign of terror, this is
>definitely a possible sign of sympathy to V's cause.  Since Snape
>did become a death eater very soon after this scence (within two
>years), this very well could be a sign that he agrees with Voldemort
>and his tactics.  V had already been in power for about 6 years
>before Snape graduated from Hogwarts; he HAD to have known what
>being a death eater meant: killing and torturing others.
>

Covered this earlier, except for the last bit.
There's nothing anyone can say that would make Snape's joining the Death 
Eaters okay, but I still wonder what was going through his mind when he 
did...

>Back to the present: Snape has physically abused Harry.  (Pg. 649-
>650, OoP)  After he caught Harry in his memory, he held Harry's arm
>so tightly that Harry had a bruise on that arm.  Snape shakes Harry
>so hard that Harry's glasses slide down his nose.  And he throws
>Harry across the room with all his might, causing Harry to fall hard
>onto the floor.  He refuses to let Harry get a word in edgewise, or
>allow Harry to tell Snape that Harry didn't enjoy watching his
>father.  Snape bans Harry from his office and throws things at Harry
>as Harry leaves.  And he refuses to continue teaching Harry
>occlumency, even though he knows Dumbledore wants him to do it,
>knowing that this could be the only way to prevent Voldemort from
>possessing Harry.  (Dumbledore knows this possiblility; Snape knows
>V very well and would probably know he could possess Harry).  I'm
>sorry, but there is NO excuse for abusing a student.  Not one.
>

This was very bad. There is no way to make it not. I still wonder, however, 
what happened with Lupin's plan to go confront Snape or Dumbledore about it. 
I certainly hope this is explained because I would have thought that the 
whole thing would have reached Dumbledore's ears at some point and yet we 
never hear anything about it.

>I think that looking at the Marauders characters and Snapes
>character/reactions, I think we could guess what Snape's
>relationship with the Marauders was: exactly what Dumbledore said it
>was.  Very similar to the Harry/Draco relationship: from day 1, they
>have a blatant hatred of the other, and are always trying to
>humiliate the other (even better if the humiliation is in front of a
>crowd of people who hate the other).  Neither is the victim, and
>neither is the innocent.

I want to see a memory in which Snape teams up with some slytherin buddies 
and attack a defenseless member of MWPP. Then I will believe you.

>It works both ways.  Harry finally
>sympathizes with Snape, because he feels that Snape might have had a
>similar childhood that he had.  But Snape loses this sympathy almost
>as soon as he gained it by abusing Harry and worsening his
>malevolent actions towards him.
>
>I used to think Snape was a misunderstood character, a reformed bad
>guy who got lead into a path of evil.  Now, after he's physically
>abused Harry, I can't stand him.  No sympathy. I think he
>overreacts, and is violent.

WHY does Dumbledore trust him so much???
I wouldn't want to have a spy who overreacts and is violent. There's 
_something_ there that we're missing.

>He joined the death eaters about half-
>way through Voldemort's reign, knowing what Voldemort and the death
>eaters were capable of.  And if he was a death eater, chances are he
>used an Unforgivable curse a few times.

So has Harry.

>Now we know that to
>successfully use an Unforgivable curse, one has to enjoy the effects
>that it has.  Snape's probably used the crucio curse.  In order to
>use the crucio curse, one has to like causing pain.

Please don't say that again until there is one shred of evidence to support 
it.

-Jens

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