[HPforGrownups] Re: OoP: I'll do it: In defense of James

[Star Opal]

No: HPFGUIDX 62763

After being referred here by Calimora (psst, you might want to do more 
snipping in your messages, the List Elves don't like it when people don't 
/glances warily over in in their direction/ Trust me) I thought I'd give the 
role of Devil's Advocate a go. I'm not a Snapologist, I don't think he's a 
fluffy bunny (not to say the Snapologists do. I was speaking for myself 
only), I don't think he's Mr. Squeaky clean, while I find LOLLIPOPS 
interesting to think about I don't know where I stand on it, but I do find 
him interesting in a world full of so many "Good Guys" and "Bad Guys". I 
just was feeling pity for Snape and found James' behavior unexceptable 
#62691 (Even if you don't like Snape you can't justify the way James treated 
Lily "I will if you go out with me Evans", that made my skin crawl, and he 
was actually thinking of using his wand against her, defend that without 
referring to 'oh he was only 15')

Sarah wrote an excellent post which will be the > parts:

>After Lily defended Snape, he didn't even acknowledge her help.  He 
>addressed James, and said "I don't need help from filthy little Mudbloods 
>like her!" (pg. 648, US ed.) That's the equivalent of the N word. Snape was 
>in Slytherin, and had the very Slytherin attitude towards muggle-born 
>wizards.

I'm afraid I tend to be in the camp that says he lashed out at her out of 
embarrassment. Was it right? No definitely not. But I don't think it 
necessarily meant that he went around calling muggle borns "mudbloods" all 
the time. The fact that Lily 'blinked' made me think she was a little 
surprised. Not to mention what she says afterward makes me think that if he 
went around saying "Mudblood" every other sentence like Draco I don't think 
she would have bothered in the first place.

Also that "very Slytherin attitude" makes me think, you think (and please 
don't be offended if I'm wrong) all Slytherins are ESE. They might be, sure, 
but I just can't bring myself to except that. I can't believe the whole of 
Slytherin house are evil gits (isn't there an acronym for that?) gits, but 
not every single one an evil git.

>Snape was evil at one point; there is NO denying that.

No denials from me. I just think he joined the DEs after this. I believe 
that some DEs who were recruiting, saw this as a chance to lure him over. 
Not that he put up much of a fight mind you, but I think he got helped over 
the Edge that school life ("didn't seem popular" bullying), and possibly 
home life started leading him towards. But yes he would have had to made a 
conscious decision to go over. He was young, angry, and bitter just ripe for 
Voldemort's picking.

>Lupin and Sirius both are trying to explain that one memory of Snape's is 
>not
>indicative of who James was.   I think that whatever he said about
>Snape during their time at Hogwarts was probably true.

So what they say is probably true about Snape. What Snape says in PoA about 
James, later proved through the Pensieve, and coarburated by Lupin and 
Sirius is -what- not? I've said my peace on Snape and his relationship with 
DEs, just because they hated each other from year one doesn't justify 
unwarranted attacks, and as for Dark Arts, might have been a family thing 
(no canon to really say anything on that).

>In PoA, Lupin tries to be civil with Snape.  Snape doesn't do the
>same; he even wants Lupin to go to Azkaban (PoA, pg. 359 US ed).
>That's not actions of a great guy.

Nope, its the actions of a guy who can't let go of school age grudges and a 
traumatic memory (and don't even tell that wouldn't be traumatic if that had 
happen to you when you were 15). He's bitter and snarky, but not a great 
guy.

>Also, we have NO idea what
>happened before this one incident, as bad as it seems.  Lupin and
>Sirius both defend James by telling Harry that Snape still tried to
>hex/curse James at any opportunity.

Doesn't matter what happened before (as in say a week) it happened. What 
matters is what happened two seconds before it...

"I'm bored," said Sirius. "Wish it was a full moon."
<SNIP Lupin and Transfiguration>
"This'll liven you up, Padfoot," said James quietly. "Look who it is..."
<SNIP Sirius' head turn> "Excellent," he said softly. "*Snivellus*."
<SNIP>
Wormtail was looking from Sirius and James to Snape with a look of avid 
anticipation on his face.-ch 28, pg 645 US

Later...
"What's he done to you?"
"Well," said James, appearing to deliberate the point, "it's more the fact 
that he *exists*, if you know what I mean." pg 647

Remember these are books about choices he *choose* to start up Snape 
unprovoked. It looked like it happened pretty often too looking at Peter's 
"anticipation."

>Now, we also have other's views of the Marauders during their time
>at Hogwarts.
<SNIP some great examples>

Well we know that Hagrid and the teachers of Hogwarts trust Snape. Aside 
from that I admit, no examples. Mind you he's still alive and seems quite 
the loner.

>Keep in mind that Dumbledore trusts Snape, despite the fact he used to be a 
>death eater.

I didn't understand what you meant here. That Dumbledore's trust doesn't 
matter, or that it does matter? In either he does trust him.

<SNIP in an attempt to keep this James/Snape oriented. She's talking about 
Lupin>
>Now, as an adult, he has tried to be civil with Snape, despite Snape's
>prejudices against him for being a werewolf.

I also don't think its Snape prejudice against werewolves, but against Lupin 
who happens to be a werewolf. Snape has a hard time letting things go, so I 
don't see how you could expect him to be civil (he's not a Great Guy).

>James - He utterly hates the dark arts; he fought against Voldemort
>and eventually gave his life to protect his wife and son.  At
>Hogwarts, he probably hated them, too.

And yet he was able to become best friends with Sirius who from a well known 
Dark Arts, muggle hating family. Amazing restraint.

>But Harry and Ron humiliate Draco
>all the time, because Draco obviously is a follower of Voldemort.
>(The ferret scence?  Ron and Harry loved it!)

They never did anything to the magnitude of what happened in the memory. 
Draco picks the fights, with two cronies, armed, and I just don't see any of 
the trio doing anything like that to anyone, yes, even Draco.
As for the ferret, Moody!Crouch actually did that who was DE, hmm, what does 
that say for MWPP?

>Whatever they did to humiliate Snape, they didn't physically attack him.

So because they didn't actually beat Severus its okay.

>Well, Harry and Ron hex people who annoy them, too.

That *annoy* them? Name someone who they hexed for being annoying. For just 
*existing*.

>We DO know that James was a trouble maker who made
>people laugh.  We have no idea how he treats other people aside from
>Snape.  And let's face it, at this time, Snape was well onto his way
>to becoming a death eater.

I used to know a girl who would pick on kids who didn't have as much money 
as her and people would laugh. Does that make it okay? And I refer back to 
my DE theory.

<MASSIVE UNFORTUNATE SNIP> Sarah gave a run down of The Memory to which I 
refer this post:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/62691

>Now look at how he responded to Lily's help: he won't even talk to
>her, but tells James that she's a filty Mudblood.  Not the signs of
>a very nice person.  And during V's reign of terror, this is
>definitely a possible sign of sympathy to V's cause.  Since Snape
>did become a death eater very soon after this scence (within two
>years), this very well could be a sign that he agrees with Voldemort
>and his tactics.  V had already been in power for about 6 years
>before Snape graduated from Hogwarts; he HAD to have known what
>being a death eater meant: killing and torturing others.

Maybe he liked what Voldemort was offering and had self preservation in mind 
(perceived winning side and all) more then believing in Voldemorts ideas. If 
he was "unpopular", and had no friends, and was bullied when the Memory took 
place, he didn't really see anything that made the Good Guys so great. Why 
would he choose them over the DEs? (that is if my assumptions mentioned 
waaay up this post is right) Because it was the right thing to do? Well the 
Good Side didn't seem too worried about always doing the right thing. (this 
is a Snape thought, not mine)

>Back to the present: Snape has physically abused Harry.  (Pg. 649-
>650, OoP)
<SNIP>
>I'm sorry, but there is NO excuse for abusing a student.  Not one.

Nope. To be honest for a moment I thought it would get even worse. He's not 
a Great Guy, there is no excuse, but his reaction is able to be understood. 
NOT JUSTIFIED, but if this is really his worse memory, than that is 
something very private and he probably felt out of control and violated all 
over again just having someone dive right into it, especially Harry. So 
that's why I thought it was going to be worse, there's no way he was 
thinking clearly at that moment. To be honest I think Umbridge's actions are 
worse then Snape's because she plans them. I REPEAT NOT EXCUSING explaining.

My thoughts on this scene are "was James Potter in the right?" The answer is 
no. Not what did James turn out to be, because he later became a nice guy, 
willing to sacrifice himself for those close to him. But he still choose to 
be a bully during his school days, actions that quiet possibly helped lead 
Snape to become a DE, which was Snape's choice.

I hope I made myself pretty clearm this was all just opinion. Sarah's post 
was a really great and I suggest it as a read. I just had to snip it for 
length though.

Star Opal
who found Peter to be the most disturbing of the lot

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