Discriminatory admissions process (Re: OOP: Sorting hat's song)

[darrin_burnett]

No: HPFGUIDX 63353

Milz:
 
> > > The three had definite ideas on what kind of student Hogwarts 
> > should admit.


Darrin:
 
> > No, SLYTHERIN only wanted to admit purebloods. The rest were 
> willing 
> > to admit others, but then set categories for their houses.
> > 
> 

Milz:

> Yes, so you agree with me. They each had a definite idea of 
> the "kind" of student they wanted in Hogwarts and had an 
exclusionary  policies.
> 


Now Darrin again:

I don't agree with you at all and don't pretend I do. They each had a 
definite idea of the kind of student they wanted IN THEIR HOUSE. 
There was nothing about banning them from Hogwarts, which is what you 
insinuate when you say they didn't want to "teach" these students.

Again, only Slytherin had the idea to ban students from Hogwarts all 
together. He's the only one who uses the word "just" by the way.

Darrin:

> > There is no evidence that Rowena Ravenclaw, for instance, wanted 
to  kick Hufflepuff kids out of school. She just had certain 
qualities she was looking for, not unlike a master seeking an 
apprentice.
> > 
> > Rowena and Godric and Salazar grabbed the kids they wanted to 
bear  their name and Helga took the rest. But there is no evidence 
that  Godric and Rowena wanted to kick the Hufflepuff kids out of 
> Hogwarts entirely.
> > 
> > Helga didn't set any standards. I suppose that does give her a 
leg up morally, perhaps.
> > 
> > But it's still a long, and I believe inaccurate, leap from that 
> > to "Gryff, Slyth and Ravenclaw wanted to kick them all out." 
Slyth 
> > probably wouldn't have had a problem with a pureblood Ravenclaw, 
> for 
> > instance.
> > 
> 

Milz:
> I never said in my post The 3 "wanted to kick them all out": you're 
> mis-quoting me. I said they had definite ideas about the kind of 
> student Hogwarts should teach: Slytherin the "pure bloods", 
> Gryffindor the "brave" and Ravenclaw the "intelligent".
> 

Darrin:
You said "they had definite ideas about the students they wanted AT 
HOGWARTS." (emphasis mine)

That is saying they wanted only certain types of students at school. 
I'm saying they wanted to pick certain qualities above others in 
their houses.


Milz:
> I'm not going to reproduce the Sorting Hat song here. But Notice 
the  pronoun The 3 use, "We". I interpret that as The 3 had ideas on 
the type of student Hogwarts should admit. According to the Sorting 
Hat,> that difference was settled because each founder set up their 
own house and admitted their ideal kind of student.  UNTIL "several 
> years" later, a power struggle came about and the 4 Founders began 
> fighting among themselves. Quoting the Sorting Hat: 
 

Darrin:

Well, that's convenient, not reproducing the middle part of the two 
passages you quote. Here it is:

"Thus the Houses and their founders, retained friendships firm and 
true."

That means the kids worked together, built friendships, and generally 
found value in all their strenghts, in my interpretation.

All the houses picked their favorite types, they worked together for 
a while, and then discord set in. And the established fact Binns 
tells us in CoS sets forward who began rumbling about not letting 
someone into school entirely.

It was Salazar Slytherin. Godric, Helga and Rowena stayed because 
they wanted Muggle-borns in Hogwarts. Salzar left.

And considering that the Sorting Hat appears to contain the essences 
of the four founders, it is telling that Muggle-borns like Hermione 
and the Creeveys, near-squibs like Neville, minorities like Dean 
Thomas and Angelina Johnson, and poverty-stricken folks like the 
Weasleys are all in Gryff. Meanwhile, Hufflepuff has Muggle-borns 
like Justin Finch-Fletchley and Ravenclaw has minorities such as Cho 
Chang.

See any non-white, non-pureblood, non-rich faces in Slyth?

Darrin: 
>> Those kids all got their Hogwarts letters. The 
> only "discrimination" 
> > is in where they'd live once they got there. It was Slyth, and no 
> one  else, who wanted to stop certain kids from getting those 
letters.
> >
> 


Milz:

> I have my doubts about that. The Sorting Hat specifically says in 
> that Ravenclaw, Slytherin, and Gryffindor had an specific type of 
> student in mind for Hogwarts. Quoting the Hat: 
> 
> "Together we will build and teach.....Said Slytherin,"We'll teach 
> just those whose ancestry is purest. Said Ravenclaw, "We'll teach 
> those whose intelligence is surest. Said Gryffindor. "We'll teach 
all 
> those with brave deeds to their name. Said Hufflepuff, "I'll teach 
> the lot and treat them just the same."
> 
 That sure looks like The 3 wanted only specific children gracing the 
> halls of Hogwarts to me and it was "solved" by the formation of 4 
> distinct Houses.

Darrin:

Again... they wanted specific students in their houses, but seemed 
perfectly happy to allow any magic student into school in the first 
place. And what's with the denigrating of them solving their inherent 
differences and desires? I don't care if they solved it by painting 
themselves with peanut butter.

The end result, until Salazar the Genocidal Madman Racist Bastard 
started mucking about, was harmony. Sigh... I haven't written that in 
a while. Felt good.


Milz: 
 > Quoting the Hat again:
> 
> "For instance, Slytherin took only pure-blood wizards...And only 
> those of sharpest mind were taught by Ravenclaw.....while the 
bravest  and the boldest went to daring Gryffindor....Good 
Hufflepuff, she took the rest and taught them all she knew."
> 
> Why would Ravenclaw "only" teach the smart kids, if she didn't have 
> an exclusionary vision of Hogwarts? Ditto for Gryffindor.

She had an exclusionary vision OF HER HOUSE. As did Gryff. A vision, 
which, over the years, has obviously been adapted. (Something Salazar 
couldn't do.) And again, looking at modern-day Hogwarts, I don't see 
how anyone can say Gryffindor isn't diverse.

And considering this is the THIRD Sorting Hat song, and the other 
songs used such phrases as: "By Gryffindor the bravest were prized 
for beyond the rest." (GoF) which indicates that yeah, Gryff wanted 
bravery, but not at the exclusion of others.

You're putting a lot of emphasis on a song that has already had three 
versions. At one point, Salazar's love of purebloods was 
called "ambition" with no mention of pureblood. Can you really write 
the definitive history of the Founders from a song that the hat makes 
up every year?

Slytherin left because he didn't want to teach muggle-borns, which 
indicates that, like today, all the founders taught all the students. 
Gryff nurtured the brave, Rowena the smart, Salazar the pureblood, 
but they all seemed to have had a hand in the lessons taught.

Milz:

> The one thing about elitist snobbery is that it doesn't 
discriminate.
> 


And the one thing about calling someone an elitist snob is that you'd 
better be damn sure of your facts before throwing that around.

Darrin