[HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: James, Snape,

[Jenserai Bariman]

No: HPFGUIDX 64174

>I said:
> >Well, according to Lupin and Black, "he never lost an opportunity to
>curse
> >James", this is true. However, there is absolutely _no_ evidence that
>he did
>
> >_anything_ to James as horrible as what James did to him in the
>pensieve
> >scene. Lily outright asked James "What's he done to you?", and James
>has no
> >better reason aside from Snape's very existence.
>

Stripedog said:
>There's no evidence he -didn't- either, other than streching "What's he
>done
>to you?" into "What's he -ever- done to you?".

Me:
You know what? You're right. There is not enough canon to make a declaration 
either way and say definitely "I am right and Rowling will never contradict 
me without having to bend over backwards to make in plausible". But so it 
goes.

I choose to see James' Black's and Lupin's refusal/inability to come up with 
a decent explanation as an indication that there _is_ no decent explanation. 
But that's because I care about what people think of me and, in Black's or 
james' shoes, would have preferred that my godson/the girl I liked not walk 
away with the idea that I was a horrible bully.

>Prior to book 5 we didn't know that the
>pensive
>incident happened. Until that point James Potter was St. James and we'd
>seen
>virtually nothing, apart from the scene at the end of GoF, sympathetic
>to Snape.

Again, you're right. Before OotP we only knew was what Black had done to 
Snape. And that James had remained friends with someone who tried to feed a 
16 year old boy to a werewolf who, incidentally was a mutual friend and 
would probably have been sent to azkaban or killed.

>Though it was tempting to make broad generalizations about James'
>goodness
>and Snapes badness, it turns out it wasn't quite that simple. And
>despite now
>having the pensive scene it still isn't quite as simple as the new and
>fashionable WhollyInnocent!Snape and WhollyEvil!James. Who's to say what
>else,
>including Snape doing something equally as nasty to James or another
>fellow student,
>possibly a "mudblood" won't be seen in book 6 or 7?
>

No one but Rowling, and I do hope she sheds more light on this whole thing 
next book. I just think Black would have mentioned it along with his 
descriptions of Snape snooping around and hexing James.

>And as I said in an earlier post the "because he exists" line is open to
>broad interpretation in the abscence of any information concerning the 5
>years
>leading up to that point. If Snape and James had been carrying on a 5
>year long
>war with each other then, by that point, it's likely that both would use
>that
>excuse to justy their actions against the other.

Well, Draco and Harry have been carrying on a five year long war, and if one 
put Harry in James' place and Draco in Snape's I think Harry would up with 
something better than "he exists".

<snip discussion on whether "*he* never lost an opportunity to curse James" 
(my emphasis) hinted that Snape was usually outnumbered in which Stripedog 
was probably right that it didn't and I have nothing to add>

However, about Snape's lack of allies in the pensieve scene...

Me earlier:
> >True, Sirius did say that Snape hung with a group of Slytherins that
>nearly
> >all became Death Eaters, however, in this book, we get a bit of info
> >(Lucius' age) that indicates that at least one, if not all, of these
>friends
>
> >had left Hogwarts by the time Snape was in fifth year.

Stripedog:
>Actually if I recall correctly Lucius' age is revealed in an interview
>not in
>the book (I could be wrong on that and I'd love to have a cite for
>either the
>book passage or the article),

It's in the book. It's when the ministry revels that it suspects Black to be 
in London. It says "Lucius Malfoy, 41" blah blah blah, but I can't find it. 
I can't remember what chapter it's in. It's there though, I wasn't the only 
one to comment on it. I don't suppose someone who knows where it is could 
give the page the page? If not, I'll find it eventually.

>we know nothing about the others so
>there's not
>alot you can assume about them one way or the other. One could just as
>easily
>infer that the bulk of the gang of Slytherins were only year or two
>older and
>younger than Snape or that most of them were in the same year but didn't
>go
>outside as Snape did and that this was one of the instances where Snape
>was
>caught alone.

Yes, I suppose you could. But Lucius was definitely gone at that point, and 
given Sirius' comment later about Snape being Lucius' lapdog, I would 
venture that when Lucius left Hogwarts, Snape lost one of his biggest 
defenders.

>What I am saying is that Sirius was at least adult enough to acknowledge
>that
>in that instance and he and James were little jackasses and further that
>he
>and James had been at times when 15 and thereabouts "arrogant little
>berks."

Yes, this was a huge step for dear Sirius given his attitude in earlier 
books...

Lupin:"'Sirius here played a trick on him which nearly
killed him, a trick which involved me --'
Black made a derisive noise.
'It served him right,' he sneered. 'Sneaking around, trying to find out
what we were up to... hoping he could get us expelled....'" (PoA, on the 
Prank)

However, to me, the scene where Harry asks Black and Lupin about the 
pensieve still reads as if Black is giving more lame excuses:
"He [James] always made a fool of himself whenever Lily was around" (a 
FOOL???)
"He [Snape] never lost an opportunity to curse James" (well, at least it's 
better than "sneaking around")
"A lot of people are idiots at age fifteen" (bs)

>When confronted
>with
>evidence of mistakes made in the past, and that pensive scene is a
>horrible
>mistake regardless of the ongoing conflict between James and Snape, they
>ought to
>say "yup, you're right, I was wrong, that was a terrible way to be and a
>good
>person isn't proud of that sort of thing" and so by extension "you
>shouldn't be
>the way I was, don't make my mistakes".

Had he been as descriptive as all that I would be a bit more sympathetic.

>Harry
>may not have
>needed them to tell him not to act that way, but I think he did need to
>get a
>fuller, more honest picture of his father and his friends.

A fuller, more honest picture would have included whatever Snape had done to 
deserve it. This would not have put James back on his pedestal like before, 
he would have simply become a normal person again. Instead we are given lame 
excuses.


>Would it have been better for them to have lied to Harry or expound upon
>a
>list of grivances justifying what happened?

What they've done is ended up in a weird middle ground where they've 
tentatively admitted to being wrong but still supplied reasons for why James 
never stopped picking on Snape and why Black tried to feed him to Lupin. 
Admittedly the Prank excuse was in an earlier book and if it had come up in 
this discussion Black might have admitted his failure there as well. But if 
they were gonna go with sucking it up and taking responsibility for their 
actions they should have gone all the way and not added the bit about Snape 
hexing James at every opportunity. Instead they show a great desire to 
explain themselves and end up with relatively minor offenses on Snape's part 
and huge ones on theirs. Well, one huge one on Lupin and James, two on 
Black.

>From what I can see you write about that pensive scene as if it happened
>in a
>void, where neither James nor Snape had ever interacted before and James
>just
>picked innocent and helpless Snape out of the blue to show off and
>impress
>Sirius and Lily, and then tormented him ever after thereby turning him
>to the
>dark side. Or that James and only James ever did anything and Snape was
>ever and
>always the undeserving victim. And we know that's not true, both boys
>had a
>history and a hate with each other of at least 5 years duration prior to
>the
>event.

Um, no. What I am saying is that based on what cannon we have, Snape cursed 
James at every opportunity and snuck around. James cursed him - and everyone 
one else who annoyed him - and humiliated him. Black cursed him and tried to 
feed him to Lupin (yes, James did save him from this fate but whether that 
was out of caring for Snape's life or caring for Lupin's and Black's 
continued presence outside of azkaban is not known). As it stands now, the 
canon is on Snape's side. This could potentially change, but Rowling would 
have to explain why whatever Snape might have done was never mentioned 
before because I'm not buying your "good parenting" argument.

>In the instance of the pensive scene James and Sirius were the
>aggressors and
>they were wrong. Sirius and Remus admit as much and are embarassed by
>it.

Embarrassed?
In Lupin's case, perhaps. He says something quietly, which could mean he was 
embarrassed. But then he smiles. Then he laughs. He proceeds to be eager to 
talk about James and beam reminiscently. He does start talking slowly when 
telling Harry that James never stopped hexing Snape, which could mean 
regret.
Black, on the other hand.... He talks to Harry placatingly, quickly, 
affectionately, bracingly and unconcernedly (he shrugs, and I read it as 
unconcern. Other interpretations are also possible). He didn't sound very 
embarrassed to me.

>But to then extrapolate from that that Snape was
>-always- the victim, poor and oppressed and harried and hounded, or that
>he himself
>might not also have done some pretty nasty things, or that James (and
>Sirius
>too) remained a horrible man with no redeeeming qualities, and as some
>have
>even speculated, forced, bullied, or trapped Lily into marrying him, and
>who
>fooled everyone around him including Moody, Dumbledore, and McGonnigall,
>before he
>was killed, I'm not sure can be done or should be done.

I didn't say that. I did say that the Lily part is a _neat idea_, but for a 
fanfic. I don't think it would happen in canon.

Of course Snape retaliated. Of course James was not a one hundred percent 
evil person. What I do believe is that James' attacking Snape for no reason 
was not a one time thing and that Dumbledore and McGonagall didn't know how 
badly James treated Snape. See McGonagall's reaction to Harry and George 
beating up Draco. What did Moody have to say about James? I don't remember 
that part.

-Jens

_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail