OOP: James( was:Two-way Mirror and other frustrations)

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 64198

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fitzchivalryhk" 
<fitzchivalryhk at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" 
> <valkyrievixen at y...> wrote:
> > Not Really. Is my answer to your question.
> > I hadn't proposed that the remark, of Snapes, was a justification 
> > for James actions,
> 
> You said :
> "James earned a degree of repect for this: his spite was directed
> at someones choice to hate, not merely someones inability to defend 
> themself, as was Snapes attack on Lily."
> 
Cheers Fitz this has become a great debate! :-D
I have never, yet, gotten into the "Snape's character" debate and I 
am enjoying thoroughly discussing it with you and others.
In reply I have to point out that my statement was that James earned 
a degree of respect by *directing his spite* at someone who hated him 
and others for no particular reason, rather than at someone of 
obviously admirable character without prejudice such as Lily.
I did not mean that he earned respect for being an arse. Just for his 
choice to stand against an injustice. Though, no question, he never 
needed to act like an arse while doing it, and that was very childish.

> I say : 
> If you say someone earn respect because of his choice of victim for 
> bullying, I think it is close to justifying his action of bullying.
> Besides, when was Lily unable to defend herself? I think she is 
very capable of defending herself, given her brave display in arguing 
with the Mauraders.

Yes she was well ble to defend herself, obviously, so my former 
statement that she lacked defense does no justice to my stand.
I was mostly by it attempting to make the example of how a popular 
boy in school making the purebloodism of the wizard world look a 
disgrace could be relegated to the side of good in principle. 
Again, I say, I am not justifying his actions, just pointing out why 
he could still be considered in a good light even when acting like a 
complete arse.
 
> 
> > However, trying hard to look at the 
> > practicable situation unfoggily, Snape was a target for 
*existing*.
> > There is definite overtones of Severus personifies a thing that 
> > shouldn't exist, in that statement. Which is the crux of my 
> > argument. 
> 
> 
> I agree that in James mind, Snape did personify something that 
should 
> not exist. However, we can have many interpretations of what that 
> particular thing is. You interpreted it as "Snape being a bigot". I 
interpret it as "Snape being greasy haired", "Snape being in 
> Slytherin" ,  "Snape being Snivellus" or just that "Snape being 
> weaker than James himself".

With this I strongly disagree. Snape did manage a dangerous attack on 
James himself, as I recall. I stand by my conviction, that James was 
not stooping to a level of disliking Snape for things out of his 
control such as his greasy hair. But for reasons of his character as 
a Dark Wizard who "snivels" to gain favour.
And finally I agree entirely with Harry that the pain of being in 
that situation is not justified in any of these statements. They are 
merely in defense of James as a person who made a stupid mistake. I 
will not easily back down from the debate that in even this 
particular scene James' Heart was good and warm. 

> However, during the time when James was bullying Snape, we did not 
> see him or Sirius insulting Snape using terms like "bigot scum" 
> or "racist pig", we saw James/Sirius insulting Snape with the 
> terms "Snivellus", "greasy hair smudging his papers" etc, which 
makes 
> you think, what was more important in Jame's mind, Snape being a 
> bigot, or Snape being the greasy Snivellus.
> 
What is, obviously, primarily in James mind at the time is impressing 
upon the beauty Lily Evans that he is powerful. 
He may also be assuming that she will see him as a person who does 
not tolerate someone who displays poor character by dabbling in evil 
arts.
By this, if he is assuming it, he simply assumes too much.


> <snip>
> > I am sure it will, in future books, become evident why James was 
> > such a beast to Severus. 
> 
> I hope JKR shows why James was bullying Severus too. 
> 
> >I am supposing that it is also likely we 
> > will see how James came to care for him at some later stage, and 
> > recognise him as a human with feelings.
> > Though, of course, remembering that Lupin said he still secretly 
> > taunted Snape in seventh year the latter situation is unlikely, 
> IMHO 
> > to be truly redeeming for Severus' character. 
> 
> Hmm.. I never think that Snape's facing bullying at school 
> can "redeem" Snape, but instead, what Snape chose to do after he 
> decided to leave the DE.

I agree. I am saying that James shows a strong character to protect 
Snape from the werewolf. Severus is his worst enemy, a person with 
whom he has never so much as shared space without tension from both 
parties. If we are given any more insight in to this redeeming action 
by James, or any reason why chose to go easier on Severus at that 
time we shouldn't hold out any hope that we are going to see a sweet, 
lovable, misunderstood Snape in it.
Frankly, I have faith in James the marauder having his heart enough 
in the right place to have stopped completely at the moment Snape was 
revealed as misunderstood, and not slimy, snivelling or essentially 
prefering dark evil magic.
So, since he didnt, we should expect not to see a huge redemption of 
Snapes character during his school years.


> > Whereas James' character is rather more redeemed by his selfless 
> > protection of Boy Severus from his dangerous friend and in doing 
so his defiance of his dearest mate Sirius.
> 
Meaning that as a boy James was able to display a sense of honour and 
dignity to spite all his previous actions.

> Whereas Snape's character is rather more redeemed by his selfless 
> spying for the Order of Phoenix, and protection of Boy Harry 
Potter  
> and in doing so his defiance of his former master Voldemort.
> 
Point taken though he took longer to grow up than James and my point 
still stands that Snape has a honour streak that makes itself known 
after he is made aware of the true nature of Dark Magic. As a student 
I suspect his reverence of the black arts was prevalent enough to 
label him safely as a person displaying an evil character.

Basically, I am saying that James displayed himself a fool by 
attempting to teach someone who was in love with evil that good was 
essentially stronger and better. 
And of course, I reiterate, by doing so did not do any justice to the 
cause of good. But it was his intention .

Valky

> Fitz.