OOP: Give OoP a chance!; SHIP (Romantic Chaos in OOP)

[pennylin]

No: HPFGUIDX 65874

Hi --

Yes, I've been here, though I can't begin to say that I've been following *all* the posts by any stretch.  I'm planning to pop in with more substantive thoughts after I've done a comprehensive re-read, as there are so many questions.

I'll be throwing in some SHIPPING comments at the end in order to avoid having this be a huge "me too" post.  :--)

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." <cindysphynx at c...> wrote:

> In my case, I'm actually feeling a bit intimidated about saying what 
> I *really* think about OoP lest those who liked the book take 
> offense.  

Dicey: <<<<<<<I loved OoP: I finished on
Saturday evening, spent all day Sunday musing over it, and concluded
that it was wonderful.  I thought its development of thematic material
was brilliant, and there were many memorable scenes.

But it seems like OoP is being judged against the wrong measuring
stick.  Nobody likes it because it wasn't enough like the first four.
It's an orange that is being criticized for not being an apple.

[large snip]

OoP is the way it is because books 5, 6, and 7 are three parts of one whole story arc.  Taken together, they will function as one huge book with
all the cool stuff that was present in the first four books; you'll
just have to read all three of them to get it.
>>>>>>

Ooh, ooh!  Yes.  Precisely.  That's just it.  Finally, someone is saying what I've been thinking too.  

I loved OOP.  Unfortunately, due to lots of Real Life and Nimbus - 2003 planning (crunch time), my re-read is going rather slowly.  But, I'm *thoroughly* enjoying OoP.  I read it in one big gulp last Saturday, and as I say, I've been re-reading it all of the past week in short bursts.  And, I think Dicey's exactly right: OOP is, IMO, a teaser in a way.  Dumbledore said that he would tell Harry *everything,* but he didn't tell him anywhere near *everything* --- did he?  No.  There's been quite alot held in abeyance for Books 6 and 7, and I couldn't agree more that this is a logical result of the organization of the series.  OoP very much *felt* like a *beginning* in some ways.  And, it definitely is full of loose ends.  But, I recognized right off that this isn't sloppy editing (okay, it is in *some* cases).  But mainly it's just, as Dicey points out, a function of where we are in the series.  So, hats off to Dicey.  Yes, exactly.

Jade wrote, with regard to the SHIPPING in OOP:

<<<<First, lets tackle Hermione's feelings. She doesn't do much on the Ron front in this book, save for the bickering, the protection of him being picked on, and that kiss on the cheek. First, I'm sorry, but I don't see their constant bickering as 'romantic' in any aspect. Being a 'recent adult' of 18, I had one good friendship with a guy I bickered with some of the time, but there were no romantic feelings about it. So it is possible for bickering to be just that. A clash of personality. I don't see Hermione and Ron having all that much in common other than having Harry as a friend. The kiss on the cheek was probably to calm his nerves, and didn't necessarily mean all that much, unless you buy into the theory that Hermione likes both Harry and Ron as she kissed Harry on the cheek at the end of GoF.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes, well, I've always maintained that the bickering can just be a clash of personalities, and I still think that's the case with Ron and Hermione, by and large.  In fact, we see pretty clearly in OOP (judging from what Harry says and what we readers personally observe) that Ron and Hermione are not engaging in cute banter to disguise Unresolved Sexual Tension they are allegedly experiencing.  No, they are *arguing* and it's not pleasant for anyone to witness.  Certainly Ron remains scathingly critical of SPEW.  

On the kiss, well, I think it was just a good luck kiss, and certainly, it would be hard to argue that it was otherwise in the context without somehow discounting the kiss on the cheek that she gave Harry at the end of GoF.  That is, it's going to be a tough row to hoe in order to say that the one kiss was platonic and the other was not ---- not without further evidence.  I'd also point out that Rowling strongly implies that Hermione kissed Harry on the cheek for good luck before that Quidditch match too ("And you too Harry -------").  The dash?  Hmmmmmm.  Looks like a kiss to me.  :--)

I think we see several instances of Ron displaying continued romantic interest in Hermione, though his interest is highly understated in comparison to GoF, IMO.  But, what we don't see is any clear indication that Hermione returns his interest.  There are places in the text where it could be argued that she does, but in each case, there is a strong counter-argument showing that Hermione likes Harry *that way.*  Rowling did a beautiful job of planting clues and red herrings on the romance front ---- of course, the problem is that we won't all agree on which items are red herrings and which are clues, will we?  <g>  Back to Hermione quickly though  ------- what we do have are several instances in which it would have been ideal, in context, to show Hermione returning Ron's feelings, if she did.  One example might be when she thanks Ron for the perfume he gave her for Christmas.  Um......... based on the R/H evidence of her blushes in GoF, shouldn't she be blushing or have pink spots on her cheeks when she thanks him for that perfume?  Um?  :::arches eyebrows questioningly:::::::  No, the opportunities were there, and they were not taken, which leads me to conclude that Rowling is not ready to give away the romance angle just yet.

<<<<Now, Harry and Hermione. Not quite plausible just yet, but I do see something there (but that might just be my H/H shippiness kicking in. But I'm trying to be objective. Really.) I see Hermione having more than friendly feelings towards her raven-haired friend, from the interrogative method in which she asked Harry about Cho, she asked in a "business-like way." Her attitude throughout the conversation was rather abrupt and cold (US Ed. Pgs 457-8). Quite possibly that could be a hint that she wasn't pleased at all with the situation, yet didn't want it to be obvious as such. J.K. Rowling is nothing but a master at subtle clues.>>>>>>>

Er......yes.  Despite the surface level non-chalance with which she sets about trying to "help" Harry get together with Cho, methinks there is more to the story.  She asks "briskly" if he kissed Cho, and is seen to be wearing a "slight frown" as she awaits his response.  Hmmmmmmmm.  In addition, look at how she reacts in the prefect badge scene.  IMHO, she could quite possibly be treading the line of giving away her true feelings before she recovers herself, and *that's* why she blushes in that scene.  

Oh, and: fishing for compliments, are you Hermione?  "You could tell her how ugly you think I am."  :::smirks:::::::  [Wasn't that one of the pre-OOP arguments advanced by the R/H side as to why H/H could never happen: Harry thinks Hermione is ugly?  Yeah, I thought so.  Directly contradicted by OOP!  Not that I ever understood that argument since Harry clearly thought Hermione was attractive at the Yule Ball, but anyway ...... *that* argument doesn't hold anymore].

<<<<<<Also, there must be something there to make so many people now believe there is more going on between Harry and Hermione than just a mere friendship. From Krum's walk with Harry in GoF where he asks him flat out, "what's with you and Hermione", to Cho's not one, but two arguments with Harry over his friendship with Hermione. And lets not forget Rita Skeeter's scoop from GoF. True, some might say that her scoop was to only get at Hermione, but all of Rita's scoops have some basis in reality.>>>>>>>>>

*nods*  Yes, we now have *2* books wherein a Harry/Hermione relationship is suspected by potential romantic partners of one or the other.  I think this is no accident.  Yes, it *could* be just a commentary on how people wrongly suspect that members of the opposite sex can never *be* just friends (spoken in best Billy Crystal voice).  But, I think there's something more to this, very definitely.  Why are Ron and Hermione never suspected of being an item?  

<<<<Rita Skeeter. Yet another thing that made me believe Hermione has more than friendship feelings toward Hermione. Her quickly changing the subject at Rita Skeeter's interest of Harry's date was quite noted by this reader (US Ed. pg 565)>>>>>>>>>

Didn't catch that one ... will have to check it out on the re-read.  :--)

<<<<<<But like I said, it was a confusing book. I do see a Luna possibility for Ron, a Hermione possibility for Harry (but that all depends on if Harry can get out of this raging, angry mode he is in), and a Neville possibility for Ginny, as it was Ginny that Neville was trying to save (and he who took her to the Yule Ball in GoF).>>>>>>>

This is now my favorite ultimate pairings line-up!  The question was always: does Ron have to die in order for H/H to work?  A question I always thought was short-sighted in any case.  But, now we have a clear answer.  No, he can get together with Luna who plainly fancies him.  I've always liked Ginny & Neville: ever since the Yule Ball.  Now, they've both come into their own, and I rather suspect they'll both develop even more in the next 2 books.  So, yeah ........ I like this very much.

Penny    



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