From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sat Mar 1 01:41:09 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 20:41:09 EST Subject: Why didn't anyone offer to teach Harry? Message-ID: <1d3.3fb4e59.2b9169b5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 52975 I have a question (well...obviously...): Why didn't anyone offer to teach Harry the Patronus spell? All the teachers - heck, the whole school - saw Harry fall off that broom. Doesn't it seem odd that no one said "Harry, there is a spell that could help you, but it's very advanced and if you don't want to try, we understand" ? Harry had to seek out help. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ (Who knew that she lost the ability to tell the difference between fantasy and reality when she said "Well, of course we can't get in Platform 9 3/4! We're Muggles!" ... and meant it.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Mar 1 02:47:19 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 02:47:19 -0000 Subject: Why didn't anyone offer to teach Harry? In-Reply-To: <1d3.3fb4e59.2b9169b5@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 52976 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > Why didn't anyone offer to teach Harry the Patronus spell? > ...edited... Harry had to seek out help. > > ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ bboy_mn: Just opinion but I think several things come into play here. There are many MANY places in the book where Harry/Ron/Hermione could have asked for help and got it. I have to believe, if he would have asked, one of the teachers could have fixed Ron's wand. Certainly robes can be magically altered, so if Ron had asked a teacher or a house elf or even Hermione, he probably could have had reasonable looking robes. Harry is thoroughly independant, he almost never asks anyone other than Hermione and Ron for help. I think part of that is being an abused child. I think JKR very accurately created a personality that reflects his history. Harry has absolutely no reason to trust adult when you consider that his model for adults is Vernon and Petunia. He has no reason to trust kids when Dudley and his gang constantly assaulted him, and the rest of the school played along because they didn't want Dudley to turn on them. The very first adult that treats Harry nice becomes a very close friend; Hagrid. The next adult who relates to him in a safe non-threatening friendly way, also becomes a friend; Lupin. Yet even with these friends, he rarely turns to them for help. He does ask Lupin to help him with the Dementors, but he does so reluctatly, and it takes his fierce desire to win the Quidditch Cup to make him overcome his hesitation. Plus, they are kids. Little kids live in their own private world. It has its own language, its own priorities, and its own rules. Part of the Code of the Playground say that you can only live and operate with in the boudaries of the universal playground; wihtin the boundaries of a kids world. You don't run to the teacher, you don't turn to adults for every little thing like a baby, and you don't rat on even your worst enemy. In this case, I am reminded of the 'Peanut' cartoons. When adults talk, they have no voice. They have no voice when speaking to the children because they are foreigners in a child's world. When Charlie Brown talks he sounds normal, but when his mother replies, all you hear is a trombone; wuaaa wuaaa wuaaaa waa. Now we see why they didn't ask, but your real question is, 'Why didn't anyone offer?'. I think partly because it's life lesson. The same reason they let Snape teach. Because as much as the student hate him, they learn to work with him. That's the way real life work. There may be someone where you work that you absolutely hate. Someone who's personality is grossly in conflict with your own, but you act like a professional; you deal with it and get on with what must be done. The life lesson in general in this case, is that it's OK to ask for help. Or twisted into a proverb, you do not get what you do not ask for. I could ramble on longer, but I think you get the point. bboy_mn, who really hopes he got his 'its' correctly. From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sat Mar 1 02:04:31 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 20:04:31 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why didn't anyone offer to teach Harry? References: <1d3.3fb4e59.2b9169b5@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E60152F.26604D92@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 52977 SnapesSlytherin at aol.com wrote: > > I have a question (well...obviously...): Why didn't anyone offer to > teach > Harry the Patronus spell? All the teachers - heck, the whole school - > saw > Harry fall off that broom. Doesn't it seem odd that no one said > "Harry, > there is a spell that could help you, but it's very advanced and if > you don't > want to try, we understand" ? Harry had to seek out help. Professor Lupin taught him the spell. I don't understand your question. Jazmyn From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Sat Mar 1 03:36:51 2003 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar ) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 03:36:51 -0000 Subject: Why didn't anyone offer to teach Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 52978 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve < bboy_mn at y...>" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > > Why didn't anyone offer to teach Harry the Patronus spell? > > ...edited... Harry had to seek out help. > > > > ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ > > > bboy_mn: > (snip) > Now we see why they didn't ask, but your real question is, 'Why didn't > anyone offer?'. I think partly because it's life lesson. The same > reason they let Snape teach. Because as much as the student hate him, > they learn to work with him. That's the way real life work. There may > be someone where you work that you absolutely hate. Someone who's > personality is grossly in conflict with your own, but you act like a > professional; you deal with it and get on with what must be done. > > The life lesson in general in this case, is that it's OK to ask for > help. Or twisted into a proverb, you do not get what you do not ask for. now me: I think there is also another aspect to adult/child relationships at play here. I don't think many adults react to a threat to a child by teaching them to fight it themselves. Instead, the instinct is to protect them, using an adult's superiour abilities etc. So, I'm thinking that the profs would be more inclined to keep the dementors out of the castle than trying to teach Harry very complex magic just in case they got back on the grounds. After all, he is only 13 and the profs are right there to deal with the Dementors. Don't get me wrong, Dumbledore is no doubt a huge fan of the 'real-life lesson', but I think we've seen more protective behaviour from, for instance, McGonagall. -Ing From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Sat Mar 1 04:14:42 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 04:14:42 -0000 Subject: Why didn't anyone offer to teach Harry? In-Reply-To: <1d3.3fb4e59.2b9169b5@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 52979 Oryomai wrote: I have a question (well... obviously...): Why didn't anyone offer to teach Harry the Patronus spell? All the teachers - heck, the whole school - saw Harry fall off that broom. Doesn't it seem odd that no one said "Harry, there is a spell that could help you, but it's very advanced and if you don't want to try, we understand"? Harry had to seek out help. I reply: Well, I kinda think you answered your own question there, in a manner of speaking. Even Lupin, after having been asked for help, seems hesitant to get Harry's hopes up: "There are - certain defenses one can use," said Lupin. "But there was only one dementor on the train. The more there are, the more difficult it becomes to resist." "I don't pretend to be an expert at fighting dementors, Harry, quite the contrary..." "Well... all right. I'll try and help. But it'll have to wait until next term, I'm afraid." (PoA, US paperback, Ch.10, 189) And later: "The spell I am going to try and teach you is highly advanced magic, Harry - well beyond Ordinary Wizarding Level. It is called the Patronus Charm." "But I must warn you, Harry, that the charm might be too advanced for you. Many qualified wizards have difficulty with it." (ibid, Ch.12, 237) And even later: "This charm is ridiculously advanced... I shouldn't have suggested putting you through this..." (ibid, Ch.12, 241) So, I'd conclude that no one offered to help him with defenses against the dementors simply because everyone underestimated Harry and assumed that the Charm was way too advanced for him to learn. After all, it's 'well beyond Ordinary Wizarding Level,' which is fifth year (while Harry's only a third year), and it's so difficult that 'many qualified wizards have difficulty with it,' which I'd read as almost meaning 'many *graduated* wizards have difficulty with it.' Oh, and one other thing that just comes to mind - if it's so difficult that 'many qualified wizards' have trouble with it, then it wouldn't be out of bounds to suggest that perhaps many of the teachers can't even perform the Patronus Charm. I mean, I think it's safe to say that Dumbledore can, because Hermione says: "Then he waved his wand at the dementors. Shot silver stuff at them." (ibid, Ch.9, 181) And we know that Lupin can, because not only does he teach Harry how to do it, but I'd guess that he performed some kind of minor patronus on the Hogwarts Express too: "But the dementor didn't move, so Lupin muttered something, and a silvery thing shot out of his wand at it " (ibid. Ch.5, 185) But really, we don't necessarily have any reason that anyone else (save maybe Flitwick, who is the Charms instructor, after all) could even perform the Patronus Charm. So I'd say that no one offered to help him because a) they didn't think he was advanced enough to perform the charm, and b) because more than likely some of the teachers couldn't even perform it themselves. -Tom From sevothtarte at gmx.net Sat Mar 1 04:53:31 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 05:53:31 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why didn't anyone offer to teach Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4YHGPN76D8C7EXR1XUBAEALHHB54Y.3e603ccb@tk> No: HPFGUIDX 52980 Tom wrote: >So I'd say that no one offered to help him because a) they didn't >think he was advanced enough to perform the charm, and b) because >more than likely some of the teachers couldn't even perform it >themselves. And there's always the respect for another prof's area of expertise... Lupin's the DADA teacher, anyone else offering to teach a DADA spell would be very rude (remember Lockhart with Sprout and Snape), probably even if it was Flitwick. Considering how important Quidditch and her pupils are to McGonagall, I'd bet she asked Lupin if he taught Harry the spell, or would do it if Harry asked him. -Torsten From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Sat Mar 1 06:26:53 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib ) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 06:26:53 -0000 Subject: how many time can Snape save Harry? (was:Re: Snape's Secret) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 52981 How many times could Snape have saved Harry? some of the more obvious ones: 1) potion logic problem in SS ("Those stupid Potters are always sticking their nose where it doesn't belong. I'll make the logic problem so difficult that Harry could never master it, and then he will never have to face Quirrell!Voldemort") 2) trying to counter Quirrel!Voldemort's knock-Harry-off-the-broom spell (I'm sure there are more here, but I want to get on to the fun ones...) 7thsqueal wrote: It is also possible that it was Snape's doing that saved Harry's life the night his parents died. This would explain why Snape is so disgusted about Harry getting all of the credit, fame and celebrity for defeating Voldemort. Me: So this is Snape saving/trying to save Harry #3... So how about a scene that goes something like this: Snape, with priviliged DE information, finds out that Voldemort is going to get the Potters. He hurries to Godric's Hollow and finds the Potters. Still holding a grudge against James, he turns to Lily, knowing she won't leave without her baby (perhaps he helps cast a spell to save Harry?), and says: "'Lily, take Harry and go! It's him! Go! Run! I'll hold him off- '/ The sounds of someone stumbling from a room - a door bursting open - a cackle of high-pitched laughter [as Voldemort sees one of his DEs has come to watch him finish off the Potters.]" - PoA, American hardcover, pg 240, in which Harry describes to Lupin what he hears when encountering boggart!dementors. So it was Snape, and not James, who Harry heard... and on to a snape's 4th way of saving Harry... Brin wrote: Because of the anagram, I believe that Snape is a biological brother of the Evans sisters. But what happened and why? quick note from me: could someone send me the specifics on this? (If this has been discussed ad nauseum and you don't want to waste board space on it, you can email me a link or summation. Thanks!) back to Brin: Could it be possible that Snape was born as Perseus Evans, either as Petunia's twin or before her birth (I'm assuming Petunia is older than Lily). He was somehow stolen from the family either right at birth or later - this was done in a way that let the Evanses firmly believe he was dead. So, Voldemort stole little Perseus or arranged for it. Why did he *steal* a child? Why did he steal a muggle-born wizard baby, if he hated muggle-borns so much? Me: How about this: Trelawny's first (accurate) prediction was about a boy raised in the muggle Evans family who would be Voldemort's eventual doom. As discussed in a different post, predictions are notoriously tricky to read, and Voldemort got it wrong, assuming that baby Snape would be the downfall. He kidnaps Snape to try and thwart the prediction and keep himself (Voldemort) from ever reaching that final doom. Of course, in doing so he also ensured that Harry would be raised in a muggle-Evans household and, in that Greek Tragedy- esque way, ensured his doom. [side thought: It's not until Snape tells his "dad" about the blooming love between "that stupid Potter kid" and the Evans girl that Voldemort sees where he has gone wrong - he got the wrong kid! But he keeps Snape anyways, because it's always good to have a spy at Hogwarts. But V takes out his anger on Snape, which only furthers Snape's hatred of James. (I'm picturing summer vacations where Snape is locked in the "cupboard under the stairs" and being punished for not being able to break up James and Lily or somehow prevent Lily from "breeding.")] So, Snape took on being raised by Voldemort, sort of in Harry's place. (Snape saves Harry #4.) Again, Snape takes the bullet for Harry - isn't that enough to hate him and also want to protect him all at once. ie if it weren't for Harry/ prediction about Harry, Snape would have been raised in a loving home (hatred), but Snape also wants to protect Harry to make sure that his (Snape's) lousy childhood wasn't all in vain. And Snape has either kept this from Harry because Dumbledore has asked him not to interfere with the prediction/ don't tell Harry, or Snape doesn't want Harry to feel in debt to Snape (Snape knows what this feels like after the shrieking shack incident with James, and also doesn't wish to further entangle Snape-Potter relationships anymore than already), or Snape just wasn't raised in a loving environment and doesn't want to reach out to Harry. Brin wrote: And it [Snape saving Harry back at Godric's Hollow] would make sense of the strange way Lupin reacted to Harry describing how he heard his dad's voice in the Dementor incident... Me: Exactly! Because perhaps it was rumored in the WW that Snape was around when V killed the Potters - a rumor Snape did not dispell since keeping up with dark/DE relationships would help him continue double agent status should Voldemort ever rise again. side note: Brin wrote: Why does Snape still hate the Potters? Mostly because of the shrieking shack incident when James saved his life, and established a 'deep magical bond' between them. (a very clever way to neutralize the son of Voldemort). Me: Could Dumbledore foresee this happening and that's part of his reason for allowing a werewolf at Hogwarts? Also, since HP/JKR seems to have lots of parallel themes (ex: lots of father/son trends - or is that just all of our theories?) could this one (Snape-Potter) be in alignment with the Pettigrew-Potter magical bond? - nobody's rib, who was previously in love with Black and Lupin, but who is now loving that Snape more and more From prittylina at yahoo.com Sat Mar 1 06:42:27 2003 From: prittylina at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Lina?=) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 06:42:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Significance of names...... again. In-Reply-To: <1046431990.1220.26744.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030301064227.71134.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 52982 "Devika " wrote: > I think that JKR was just trying to give her characters the names > that people of similar descent might have in the real world. The > same thing probably applies to Cho Chang, IMO. I am inclined to agree. Even in the Chinese translation (basing this off of the mainland simplified version), Cho's name is treated as something not apart from the others, written as all of the others are (e.g. Qiu-Zhang, Hali-Bote [Harry Potter]...). As for her name, it's translated as Qiu Zhang (Autumn Really-overused-surname), which, to me, sounds a bit odd (uneven, mainly), but her name sounded odd to me before. (^^; Actually, at first I was surprised with the using of "Zhang" instead of "Chang" (another common surname), which I suppose was done in assumption that, as her first uses a Wade-Giles-spelled name (now used only overseas [less and less] and in Taiwan), the surname would as well; I was also momentarily surprised at the use of a Western-style name [First-Last instead of the normal LastFirst), but she is, of course, a Western character in a Western book, regardless of whether or not she is a huayi (of Chinese descent). And that was too long a ramble on a simple name. Please forgive me. Lina __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Sat Mar 1 07:38:15 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib ) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 07:38:15 -0000 Subject: Mozart!Wizard and other inane schooling ideas Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 52983 Has there ever been any speculation on why there aren't any young geniuses running around Hogwarts, Doogie Howser style? At first I thought that this just wasn't plausible since Hermione, if anyone, would go in that category... however, picture this scenario: a witch and wizard ala Frasier and Lilith (from "Cheers" and "Frasier") have a child who starts showing amazing abilities (along the line of doing a patronus charm or becoming an animagi) at a very young age. Mozart!Wizard, in a way. Don't you think that in the 1000 years that Hogwarts has been around that at least a few Mozart! Wizards would come around? As for my Hermione comment, her parents being dentists, they wouldn't have necessarily recognized Hermione's natural talents. (What? Not notice their child becoming a cat right before their very eyes?) Perhaps I should re-phrase. They wouldn't have noticed any minor disturbances. And, had there been large ones, they wouldn't have known who to contact. (But I don't think there were any larger disturbances - wouldn't Hermione have told us about them? "No, Ron, it's wing-gar-dium levi- o-sa. Honestly, Ron, I was doing this when I was five!") H said her parents were delighted to have H receive the Hogwarts letter (this always confused me, as my first reaction would be concern - sending my child away to place I'd never heard of before, if nothing else) - perhaps H _was_ showing some small abilities and the Hogwarts letter finally explained it all. I think it's more likely that H's genius comes from another place. Not only is she the classic over-acheiver, but she also seemed very determined, from day one on the train, to prove that although she is muggle born she very much deserves to be at and belongs at Hogwarts. (This goes along with the idea that's it's 1% talent and 99% effort that gets you ahead in the world.) But back to my main point - certainly the Frasier!wizards and Lilith! witches in the world would petition to have their Mozart!wizard accepted early to Hogwarts. And it seems dangerous to me for children with this early-developed gift/ability to not be in a magically scholastic environment. (Could this help explain how Tom Riddle went bad? Or am I just delving into the inane?) - nobody's rib, who (of the HHR trio) really does like Hermione the most From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sat Mar 1 09:55:30 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 20:55:30 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mozart!Wizard and other inane schooling ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3E611E42.7864.62D7BD@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 52984 Interesting questions - responding here as somebody who works with profoundly gifted children - including some who are incredibly advanced, who attend college before they are 10, etc. I know these kids. On 1 Mar 2003 at 7:38, nobodysrib nobodysrib at yahoo.c wrote: > Has there ever been any speculation on why there aren't any young > geniuses running around Hogwarts, Doogie Howser style? At first I > thought that this just wasn't plausible since Hermione, if anyone, > would go in that category... however, picture this scenario: a > witch and wizard ala Frasier and Lilith (from "Cheers" and "Frasier") > have a child who starts showing amazing abilities (along the line of > doing a patronus charm or becoming an animagi) at a very young > age. Mozart!Wizard, in a way. Don't you think that in the 1000 > years that Hogwarts has been around that at least a few Mozart! > Wizards would come around? Possibly - but I'm not sure we can make that assumption. First of all, we don't really know how magical talent works. Some talents can appear in very young children. Some don't. I'm not sure we have enough information on magic in the Potter universe to make a judgement on this. Second of all, with regards to the wizarding population - it seems to be a lot smaller than the Muggle population - I can't judge the exact numbers - but consider how rare a talent on the level of Mozart is - quantifying it is difficult - but say, 1 in 10,000,000 (that's a guess, not a firm number) with the numbers of people we see in the Wizarding World, there may not have been 10,000,000 wizards in Britain since the founding of Hogwarts. Now -as for the idea of Doogie Howser types running around now. Well, consider IQ and a muggle school the size of Hogwarts - with 300 kids (near the low end of estimates for Hogwarts size), the maximum IQ you would expect in a school statistically be around IQ143. At 1000 kids (the general upper bound), you'd expect somewhere around IQ149. Allowing for the fact that Hogwarts seems to be an elite school with fairly stringent entry requirements... basically at most, you'd expect about 1 kid at around IQ160 at most in the school at any one time. 'Doogie Howser' type achievement is typically seen in 180IQ(true) and above. You wouldn't expect to see a kid at that level at a school of 1000 kids most of the time. And if magical talent is analagous to IQ based intelligence - there'd be no reason to expect a kid like that to be at Hogwarts now - occasionally yes - and it wouldn't be absurd if there was someone like that - but there's no reason to assume it's the norm. > I think it's more likely that H's genius comes from another place. > Not only is she the classic over-acheiver, but she also seemed very > determined, from day one on the train, to prove that although she is > muggle born she very much deserves to be at and belongs at Hogwarts. > (This goes along with the idea that's it's 1% talent and 99% effort > that gets you ahead in the world.) Actually, Hermione comes up a bit in a lot of gifted discussion groups - general view puts her at around IQ140-145 or so - very bright, capable of anything she wants to do, if she's willing to do the work - and willing to do that work. The arguments for that are very complex, and they are just arguments - no clear answers. > But back to my main point - certainly the Frasier!wizards and Lilith! > witches in the world would petition to have their Mozart!wizard > accepted early to Hogwarts. And it seems dangerous to me for > children with this early-developed gift/ability to not be in a > magically scholastic environment. Some parents might petition, if the talent can develop early. But just because they petition, doesn't mean it happens. Weekly, I have to deal with kids whose parents would love to see them in a more challenging environment - and where the doors just aren't opened. Generally it comes down to bureaucracy - and the Wizarding World seems to have enough of that going (-8. Accelerating kids in the muggle world is rarely straightforward - I see no reason to suppose it would be in the Wizarding world either. I mean - just consider one issue - such a decision might have to be made by the governors - and would Lucius Malfoy want a precocious ten year old showing up his son? Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "Almighty Ruler of the all; Whose power extends to great and small; Who guides the stars with steadfast law; Whose least creation fills with awe; Oh grant thy mercy and thy grace; To those who venture into space." From hp at plum.cream.org Sat Mar 1 13:11:44 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 13:11:44 +0000 Subject: Snape & Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030301124238.00966290@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 52985 nobodysrib wrote: >So how about a scene that goes something like this: > >Snape, with priviliged DE information, finds out that Voldemort is >going to get the Potters. He hurries to Godric's Hollow and finds >the Potters. Still holding a grudge against James, he turns to Lily, >knowing she won't leave without her baby (perhaps he helps cast a >spell to save Harry?), and says: The only problem with that is the Fidelius Charm. We know little about it, other than Flitwick's absolute statement in the pub scene (UK PoA, p. 151 ff). that: "As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window!" JKR has absolutely left a deliberate mystery surrounding what James did and where he was that night (and whether or not anyone else was in the house), but all the theories I've seen thus far are just a little too far-fetched for my taste, even though I have no better theory to provide. There is one thing at the back of my mind at all times, though: how on earth does Dumbledore know that James was killed first and that it was *Lily's* sacrifice which saved Harry, rather than the other way around? From the very beginning, he is very sure of this. Harry was there and he as his vague memories, but he is not the source of Dumbledore's information. Of course, Voldemort was there as well, so did Voldemort tell Dumbledore in what order he'd killed the Potters? I think not... So if the Potter parents are dead, Harry is a baby and Voldemort is the enemy, how did Dumbledore find out? (Other characters share this knowledge, but I assume they know it from Dumbledore.) We're up against that dratted Fidelius Charm again. Re: Severus Snape=Perseus Evans anagram. >could someone send me the specifics on this? (If this has been >discussed ad nauseum and you don't want to waste board space on it, >you can email me a link or summation. Thanks!) Someone else asked about this. It is NOT a JKR quote, and nobody has ever claimed it to be (at least I've never seen anyone claim that). Over the years and months, several people have independently generated that anagram, and it has never been put forward as anything more than a curiosity and a speculation as a basis for speculation. There is no evidence from JKR that there is anything to this anagram and AFAIK the subject has never been raised with her. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who can spell a barrel full of herrings, some of which are doubtless red... From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Sat Mar 1 14:23:25 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica ) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 14:23:25 -0000 Subject: The Potters (was Re: Snape & Godric's Hollow) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030301124238.00966290@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 52986 GulPlum AKA Richard wrote: > JKR has absolutely left a deliberate mystery surrounding what James did and > where he was that night (and whether or not anyone else was in the house), > but all the theories I've seen thus far are just a little too far- fetched > for my taste, even though I have no better theory to provide. > I've been pondering the possible reasons for Voldemort's targeting the Potters. Was he after all 'blood' Potters because they are descendents of Gryffindor (thus not concerned about killing Lily ... 'stand aside silly girl')? Or was he after Harry specifically, something about Harry that was a particular threat to Voldemort? Barb has an excellent fic where a prophecy about the DL's demise is given involving Lily, James and Harry thus the DL goes to Godric's Hollow to thwart it. I'm curious to find out *where* the Potter's money comes from. JKR has mention that James inherited money (plus an invisibility cloak) so that he didn't have to worry about finding a well paying job (or words to that effect). Is it *old* money (Gryffindor) or is it proceeds from fortunes made my grand-parents/great grand-parents (perhaps they were the inventors of the 'Invisibility Cloak' and got a wizard patent ;) ). If James (and thus Lily) didn't need to 'worry about money' what kinds of occupations did they have? I've recently started rereading CoS and came across a discussion between Hagrid and the Trio regarding the new DADA teacher (Lockhart). Hagrid holds his colleague in rather low esteem however mentions that Lockhart was *the only choice* since the position is getting the reputation of being 'jinxed'. I wonder if it's possible that one James or Lily was the DADA teacher and that there have been problems filling that position since then? More questions ... Does anyone know what the deal is with Lily's (and thus Harry's) eyes? Was Lily a Gryffindor or did she belong to another house? Did Ron get a new wand after CoS? What's the likelihood that Hermione will become an animagus Is the ghost 'The Grey Lady' going to figure into the story at some point - or is it another red herring? Erica From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 1 14:58:06 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 06:58:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Potters (was Re: Snape & Godric's Hollow) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030301145806.29904.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 52987 "Erica " wrote: ... Did Ron get a new wand after CoS? Yes, we know that he did. In the letter he wrote to Harry telling him about their trip to Egypt (PoA) he said most of the money from the Daily Prophet giveaway was spent on the trip, but there was enough left to buy him a new wand. ~Kathryn --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From julia at thequiltbug.com Sat Mar 1 15:37:51 2003 From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 07:37:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Lily and Ron Questions (was) The Potters Message-ID: <20030301073751.12076.h013.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> No: HPFGUIDX 52988 Erica asked: > Was Lily a Gryffindor or did she belong to another house? She was a Gryffindor - JKR specified it in a chat. We don't know for sure about Remus and Sirius, but Lily was a Gryffindor. Did she confirm James as Gryffindor also? I can't remember. > Did Ron get a new wand after CoS? Yep - it's got unicorn tail hair in it. Some people think that's going to be important and maybe a sign of bad things for Ron, since Cedric had a unicorn hair in his wand also. (I hope not!) Julia From melclaros at yahoo.com Sat Mar 1 16:16:18 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros ) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 16:16:18 -0000 Subject: Mozart!Wizard and other inane schooling ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 52989 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nobodysrib " wrote: > Has there ever been any speculation on why there aren't any young > geniuses running around Hogwarts, Doogie Howser style? At first I > thought that this just wasn't plausible since Hermione, if anyone, > would go in that category... however, picture this scenario: a > witch and wizard ala Frasier and Lilith (from "Cheers" and "Frasier") > have a child who starts showing amazing abilities (along the line of > doing a patronus charm or becoming an animagi) at a very young > age. Mozart!Wizard, in a way. Well you know...we have from GoF Amer hardback pg 531: "Snape's always been fascinated by the Dark Arts, he was famous for it at school." "Snape new more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year," &etc. Now after "Moody's" lessons in the "forbiddens" we know that these curses require a considerable amount of power behind them to be effective at all. He tells the class they could all stand together and try to direct one at him and they couldn't muster enough power to get it to work. Obvioulsy Littleboy!Snape wan't hurling Cruciatus curses around the dorms but what *was* he doing to warrant being called *famous* by someone who hates him? (As opposed to say "A bragging show-off" which even Sirius fans will admit might be more along the lines of how Sirius would be expected to describe Severus.) was he demonstrating the Leg locker curse? I doubt it. We know Snape is highly intelligent and is presented as underappreciated. As a youth it seems he certainly felt this way, IMO, after "the prank" for sure. I have a niggling sense in the back of my brain that the reason he went DE was because he was desperate for recognition of his talents--recognition he knew he'd never get as apprentice potionsmaker after Hogwarts. PLUS, I really like the idea of Severus' mom's name being Lilith. That just tickles me. From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Sat Mar 1 16:44:21 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica ) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 16:44:21 -0000 Subject: Lily and Ron Questions (was) The Potters In-Reply-To: <20030301073751.12076.h013.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 52990 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Calliope" wrote: > Erica asked: > > > Was Lily a Gryffindor or did she belong to another house? > > She was a Gryffindor - JKR specified it in a chat. We don't know for sure about > Remus and Sirius, but Lily was a Gryffindor. Did she confirm James as > Gryffindor also? I can't remember. > > > Did Ron get a new wand after CoS? > > Yep - it's got unicorn tail hair in it. Some people think that's going to be > important and maybe a sign of bad things for Ron, since Cedric had a unicorn > hair in his wand also. (I hope not!) > > Julia Thanks for the replies (Now I now where to come to get some answers :D) I knew that Ron's old hand-me-down wand had a unicorn's hair in it, but I didn't realise that his new wand also had a unicorn hair core. I thought perhaps that since he didn't *choose* his first wand his second may have a different core (mind, there aren't *that* many cores to choose from ;) ) Is not the *wood* used in a wand is also important? When Ollivander was describing the Potters' wands Lily's *willow* wand was good for charms and James' *mahogany* was good for transfiguration was he talking about the wood or the wood/core combinations (he never mentions the cores). Cheers, Erica From devika at sas.upenn.edu Sat Mar 1 17:16:51 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika ) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 17:16:51 -0000 Subject: Lily's Sacrifice, Perseus Evans (WAS Snape & Godric's Hollow) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030301124238.00966290@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 52991 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, GulPlum wrote: > There is one thing at the back of my mind at all times, though: how on > earth does Dumbledore know that James was killed first and that it was > *Lily's* sacrifice which saved Harry, rather than the other way around? > From the very beginning, he is very sure of this. Harry was there and he > as his vague memories, but he is not the source of Dumbledore's > information. Of course, Voldemort was there as well, so did Voldemort tell > Dumbledore in what order he'd killed the Potters? I think not... So if the > Potter parents are dead, Harry is a baby and Voldemort is the enemy, how > did Dumbledore find out? (Other characters share this knowledge, but I > assume they know it from Dumbledore.) > > We're up against that dratted Fidelius Charm again. > Haha, you beat me to it. I've actually been thinking about this for some time, and I was just getting ready to post a question about it. Here are some thoughts that I've had: I can only assume that when the Potters' bodies were found, Lily's body was found next to Harry, while James's body was in another room of the house, thus leading Dumbledore to believe that Lily, rather than James, had sacrificed herself for Harry. No, I don't believe that James was somewhere else that night. I think that the voice Harry hears when the dementors come close to him actually does belong to James, although we don't have canon to prove that necessarily. However, we don't have canon to disprove it, either. The question I have is this, though: how does Dumbledore know for sure that Lily sacrificed herself for Harry and that it was her sacrifice that stopped Voldemort? He seems to be right; Voldemort says so in GoF (Chapter 33), but how did Dumbledore reach this conclusion? Dumbledore knows that Lily sacrificed herself to save Harry. He seems to be one of very few people who know this, as far as I can remember. I don't have PS with me, but I seem to recall that when Hagrid is telling Harry about his parents, he says something like, "Something about you stopped him [Voldemort] that night." IIRC, Hagrid doesn't say anything to demonstrate that he knows that what stopped Voldemort was specifically Lily's sacrifice. Actually, I'm not sure if Harry finds this out until the end of PS, when Dumbledore says, "Your mother died to save you, Harry," or something to that effect. (If someone has a copy of PS and can disprove this, please do. I have the other three books here, but of course I don't have the one I need.) Lupin knows that Harry's parents died to save him; in PoA, chapter 14, he tells Harry, "Your parents gave their lives to keep you alive, Harry." Even then, Lupin doesn't say specifically that it was Lily's sacrifice that saved Harry. I think I may just be nitpicking here, though. I do think that Dumbledore gave Lupin some idea of what happened that night. Again, though, how does Dumbledore know at all? One possibility I can offer is that Dumbledore knew that the "ancient magic" invoked in Lily's sacrifice was the only way to defeat Voldemort. I have no idea how he could know this, but let's assume that he did. When Voldemort was defeated, and Lily's body was found next to Harry, Dumbledore assumed that Lily must have sacrificed herself for Harry. OK, well, that makes some sense, but then why couldn't anyone else reach this conclusion? Why is there such an air of mystery in the WW surrounding what happened that night? It wouldn't have been difficult to publicize the fact that a mother had died to save her child, thus defeating Voldemort. Tom Riddle himself didn't know what had defeated him. Ginny had probably told him the details of what happened as far as she knew, and she probably had the same information that the general public had. However, Riddle still needed Harry to say that Lily had died for him. Only then did he figure out what had happened. The point is that Lily's sacrifice is not public knowledge, although we are led to believe that this is a simple conclusion to reach from the information given. Here are the other possibilities that I can see for Dumbledore's knowledge: 1. Dumbledore could somehow monitor the situation at the Potters' house, and he actually saw what happened. 2. Someone else was in the house and somehow escaped to inform Dumbledore of what happened. 3. Lily and Dumbledore had a plan worked out beforehand because she someknew had the means to defeat Voldemort and was willing to do it, but only as a last resort since it involved her death. When no one was able to defeat Voldemort any other way, and then Voldemort found the Potters, Lily had no other choice. I suppose any of these possibilities could work (although I don't buy number 2, but that's just me). Also, I find it hard to believe that Lily was the first one to sacrifice her own life for that of her child. Voldemort and his Death Eaters had been killing people for quite some time. Had no one died trying to protect his or her loved ones? I think that there must have been something else involved in Godric's Hollow that night that gave more power to Lily's sacrifice. I think that both Dumbledore and Voldemort know what that was, but neither is telling. We can only wait for OoP. > Re: Severus Snape=Perseus Evans anagram. > > >could someone send me the specifics on this? (If this has been > >discussed ad nauseum and you don't want to waste board space on it, > >you can email me a link or summation. Thanks!) > > Someone else asked about this. It is NOT a JKR quote, and nobody has ever > claimed it to be (at least I've never seen anyone claim that). Over the > years and months, several people have independently generated that anagram, > and it has never been put forward as anything more than a curiosity and a > speculation as a basis for speculation. There is no evidence from JKR that > there is anything to this anagram and AFAIK the subject has never been > raised with her. > Personally, I don't think there's anything to this. I'm sure that JKR has never said anything about it. Actually, she has said that the name Snape comes from the name of a town. I think there's enough mystery surrounding Lily Potter and Severus Snape without making them related to each other. That's just a bit too much like a soap opera for me. Sorry if I rambled a bit. I needed to get this all typed up and posted as quickly as possible so I could go back to studying :( Devika, who would much rather be reading Harry Potter than physical chemistry From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Mar 1 17:37:15 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 1 Mar 2003 17:37:15 -0000 Subject: File - HPfGU.announcement-Nimbus.htm Message-ID: <1046540235.33734798.22151.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 52992 An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From misstresskathy at yahoo.com Sat Mar 1 14:09:18 2003 From: misstresskathy at yahoo.com (misstresskathy ) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 14:09:18 -0000 Subject: Clues from GofF Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 52993 Has anyone discussed about at the end of the book where Harry gives Fred and George his Triwizard winnings? I can only imagine what they will come up with now that they actually have money to work with to make up new joke items. I'm really curious as to how they are going to keep it secret from their Mom. She will have to wonder where they are getting the money from. I apologize if this has already been discussed as I am fairly new to the group. Kathy--who is really glad she has found other people as obsessed about Harry Potter as she is :) From gingerssnap1966 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 1 16:31:15 2003 From: gingerssnap1966 at yahoo.com (gingerssnap1966 ) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 16:31:15 -0000 Subject: FILK: Accio is Hard to Do Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 52994 Accio is Hard to Do to the tune of Breaking Up Is Hard to Do by Neil Sedaka Scene: Hermione is sitting in the common room humming to herself "Down Dooby-Doo Down Down" etc. She continues at appropriate times during the song. Harry enters. Harry: Please take your wand and follow me! I need some of your spell mastery. I've a task I must get through And Accio is hard to do. Remember when my name came up >From that magic champion-choosing cup? It just came out of the blue- And Accio is hard to do. Hermoine: They say that Accio is hard to do Now you know, I don't think that's true. Don't stand and look like a dolt. Just give your wand a jolt and think about your precious Firebolt. Harry: I beg of you: Teach me today Or I'll be served as boy ala flambe, Harry hash, or Potter stew 'Cause Accio is hard to do. Ginger, the Filker formerly known as Gingersnape1966, but due to the complete disappearance of my Yahoo, is now Gingerssnap1966. I apologize for any confusion. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Mar 1 19:52:31 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 19:52:31 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on Wands (slightly long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 52995 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Erica " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Calliope" wrote: > > Erica asked: > > > > ... > > > Did Ron get a new wand after CoS? > > > > Yep - it's got unicorn tail hair in it. ... > > > > Julia > > ...edited... > > Is not the *wood* used in a wand is also important? When Ollivander > was describing the Potters' wands Lily's *willow* wand was good for > charms and James' *mahogany* was good for transfiguration was he > talking about the wood or the wood/core combinations (he never > mentions the cores). > > Cheers, > Erica bboy_mm: I think it's more complicated than that. There is also length. The wands we have seen so far range from 8" (Fleur) to 16" (Hagrid). In the 'Weighing of the Wands', Ollivander comments about Victor's wand, first saying something like it is heavier or thicker than he likes, then he starts to make a comment about the design, but stops himself before he finishes the thought. Ollivander seems to favor supple bendy wands whereas the maker of Victor's wand (Gregoravich sp?) seem to prefer more ridged wands. Since Ollivander comments on the design, which I take to mean the shape, we assume that shape and balance are important. I'm going to stray a bit here, and make references to the movie, and while that is not cannon, it can serve to illustrate my points. Somewhere on the internet on, a commercial site I think, is a large picture archive which contains pictures of the wands of the major characters. (Anybody know where that is?) First, take Snape's wand (remember - movie wand). It's a two piece wand, handle attached to shaft, made of what appears to be the same kind of naturally dark wood. The handle is also carved. Harry's wand is a one piece wand that, in both the movie and fictional life, we can assume is stained. Holly is a very white fine grained wood that looks more like ivory than wood, so I can only assume that it is stained. Other one piece wands have slightly different shapes. Back to printed fictional reality. My analysis of wandmaking, and I have analysed it because I'm using it in a story (for reference, Harry's next wand, in my world, will be Holly handle, Yew shaft, and Dragon Heart core with a dragon carved into the handle), is that every aspect of a wand is carefully selected to match, to be in harmony with, all the other aspects. Mr. Ollivander may have 4 pieces of mahogany, and of these 4 nearly identical pieces, only one will match a particular specific unicorn hair. Then after Mr. Ollivander matches a core to a specific piece of wood, using that amazing intuitive wandmakers 6th sense, he then further refines it by decide on what length best harmonizes with the wood and core, then determines the shape and balance that further enhance that harmony. Now back to movie fictional reality, Snape's wand has a carved handle; it's possible that those carvings are ancient magical symbols that Ollivander added to the wand to fine tune it; to more accurately bring the wand into harmony with itself. Also, remember that every wand is a unique one of a kind; these are uniquely matched components that are handcrafted. My personal theory on 'the wand chooses the wizard' is that there is a magical harmonic resonance between the wand and the wizard. Like the opera singer breaking the glass, when things resonate in harmony, the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts, and that harmonic resonance is what makes a specific wand extra powerful when it is in the hands of a well matched wizard. So when Ollivander is creating a wand, it is almost like he is creating a tuning fork made of many components. If one aspect of the 'tuning fork' is out of harmony, it is a contrary force that diminishes by more than the measured value of it's individual force. Once all the components are in harmony and resonating at the same magical frequence, the wand becomes greater than it's part. Then when place in the hands of a wizard with a sympathetic harmony, all components cascade upon themselves and again, the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. The power of a wand is measured in how precisely tuned to each other it's components are. Mr. Ollivander may go through hundreds of unicorn hairs before he matches a piece of wood that he knows is sympathetic to unicorn hair. Once matched, every other aspect; color, size, shape, balance, etc..., must harmonize with the wood and core to create a powerful and effective wand. At least, that's how I see it. bboy_mn From grover_the_weird at yahoo.com Sat Mar 1 21:32:43 2003 From: grover_the_weird at yahoo.com (grover_the_weird ) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 21:32:43 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore going to die? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 52996 JKR keeps describing Albus Dumbledore as "weary" and "tired". Of course, people automatically assume he's really old which he probably is hence the really long beard and white hair. So I'm just wondering, when is Dumbledore going to die? the 5th book? Probably not in my view, since there's still the 6th and 7th book to go. Then the beloved Harry Potter will have to fight Voldemort without the headmaster's help, and that doesn't seem right until the final battle. What do you think? Should Dumbledore die to help Harry realize that without a lot of help from others, he's just a wizard and not much else? [Personally, I'm not a huge fan of Harry-The-Prophesized-Boy-Who- Saves-The-Wizarding-World.] -Clarity From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat Mar 1 22:20:29 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler ) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 22:20:29 -0000 Subject: Harry's Fan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 52997 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "flower_fairy12 " wrote: > > I'm thinking it's more likely to be Viktor Krum, Cho Chang, Colin > Creevey or possibly Fleur Delacour. So, these are not major > characters, I know, but they are all fan's of Harry's in some way > aren't they? They admire him and are friendly to him. And you have to > admit, if Harry wasn't famous, then Cho, Krum, and Colin proably > wouldn't have noticed him in a million years. I have to disagree with you. After the choosing of the four champions, when everyone was mad at Harry, Cho still talked with him, as one of very few non Gryffindor students (if I recall right, Cedric was the only other example). Viktor is also famous, and has IMO enough fear, that people just like him because he is a Quidditch player, instead of liking is personality. So I just don't think he would behave the same way with Harry. Well, maybe he thought he found sort of a soulmate in him. Fleur was pretty nasty with Harry at the beginning, despite of his fame. This changed, when he saved Gabrielle, so I think it is more personal than that Fleur likes Harry hust because he is famous. The only character where I agree with you, is colin. Hickengruendler From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Sat Mar 1 22:56:20 2003 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar ) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 22:56:20 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore going to die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 52998 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grover_the_weird < grover_the_weird at y...>" wrote: > JKR keeps describing Albus Dumbledore as "weary" and "tired". Of > course, people automatically assume he's really old which he probably > is hence the really long beard and white hair. > > So I'm just wondering, when is Dumbledore going to die? the 5th book? > Probably not in my view, since there's still the 6th and 7th book to > go. > > Then the beloved Harry Potter will have to fight Voldemort without > the headmaster's help, and that doesn't seem right until the final > battle. > > What do you think? Should Dumbledore die to help Harry realize that > without a lot of help from others, he's just a wizard and not much > else? > > [Personally, I'm not a huge fan of Harry-The-Prophesized-Boy- Who- > Saves-The-Wizarding-World.] > > -Clarity I'm pretty sure he'll die at the end of Book 6. My certainty is of course not based on my amazing prophetic powers but on the idea that Dumbledore dying can't be a small incident - it must be a climax. And the most logical place for this climax would be Book 6, leaving Book 7 in which Harry must do things on his own (or without Dumbledore at any rate). I don't think he could possibly die in Book 7, since the climax there will inevitably be Harry's defeat of Voldemort. I really can't see Dumbledore as a part of that. And I don't think it could be Book 5 either, since that would be too early. It would leave Harry vulnerable for too long, narratively speaking. Inevitably Voldemort will attack Hogwarts after Dumbledore's death, but I don't think he'd just wait about for 2 whole books to do it. But this does bring up an issue I've been thinking about a little. The references to Dumbledore's advancing age could have significance other than when he'll die (since we know he won't die of natural causes anyway). I'm thinking the references might also be there to stress the age of the "Old Crowd". We only know the names of a few of them, but it seems that three out of the five mentioned (Dumbledore, Mundungus, and Arabella) are quite old. Only Sirius and Lupin are young, and they each have their problems anyway. I'm starting to wonder how effective they are going to be in the upcoming struggle and whether that will play a significant role in the plot. -Ing From kelleythompson at gbronline.com Sun Mar 2 00:12:31 2003 From: kelleythompson at gbronline.com (Kelley ) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 00:12:31 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Is Yahoo giving you the "Ferret Treatment"? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 52999 Hello, everyone, If you've been experiencing some unusual problems receiving messages or posting messages to this group (or any Yahoo group), here is some information from Yahoo's Help section, with a few of my own comments thrown in... Why did I stop receiving email from my group? There may be a problem with your Yahoo! Groups account. Visit your My Groups page. (Look for My Groups up at the top right of this page.) If there is an "Email account is bouncing" error message near the top of your My Groups page, click on the error link for details. (If you're set to No Email or Special Notices, you may be bouncing but not realize it. One sign is that you no longer have the "Post" option available when you visit the group online. If you reply to messages by email, messages you send to the group address are re- routed to the Mods, Elves, and Geists at the owner's address, so these messages will not reach the main list.) What does "bouncing" mean? If your email account ("jane_doe@ isp.com") refuses to accept email from other accounts, then your account is said to "bounce" email. This usually means that if someone sends you an email, their message is returned to them with an error from your Internet service provider (ISP). If Yahoo! Groups gets such an error back from your account after sending you a message, we consider your account to be "bouncing" email. If messages sent to your account are consistently returned to Yahoo! Groups with an error, your Yahoo! Groups account is deactivated, and group messages will not be delivered to your account. Once your account is considered bouncing, Yahoo! Groups will send a series of test messages to your account. If the test messages are returned as undeliverable, then the account will continue to bounce. However, if a message is delivered and not returned as undeliverable within five days after it was sent, the account will automatically be reactivated. You may also manually reactivate your account by visiting your My Groups page. Yahoo! Groups organizes bounces into two types: hard bounce and soft bounce. Hard Bounce We consider your account to be "hard bouncing" if the error message we get back from your email provider says either of the following: * your email account does not exist (If you created a Yahoo or Hotmail account specifically to join this group, but have not visited that account since, it will be considered closed after 3 months. You may not realize that when you join a Yahoo group the default setting for receiving messages is "Individual Emails". If you do not change this setting, and have joined with a created account that you do not continue to use, that account will quickly fill up and / or be closed, which leads to bouncing.) * your ISP refuses all email from Yahoo! Groups. In this case, your Yahoo! Groups account will be deactivated and set to "Bouncing." You will not receive any group email until your account is reactivated. Soft Bounce If the error message we get back from your email provider doesn't fall under the definition of a hard bounce (see above), then the error is considered a soft bounce. If your account generates an occasional soft bounce error, it will be logged but no other action will be taken by Yahoo! Groups. However, if your email account consistently generates soft bounce errors for several days, then your Yahoo! Groups account will be considered bouncing and your Yahoo! Groups account will be deactivated. In this case, you will not receive any group email until your account is reactivated. How do I reactivate my Yahoo! Groups account? Go to the My Groups page. If you notice a bounce alert near the top of the page, click on the link. This will take you to the My Preferences page. Click on the Reset link. As I write this, we have 686 members bouncing. (!!!) If you think this may be the case for you, please take a moment to follow the steps above to reactivate your account. If you have any trouble with this, please contact me at kelleythompson@ gbronline.com, or at HPforGrownups-owner@ yahoogroups.com. I'll need to know the email address you used to join this group (or the last address you were using for this group) to determine whether you're bouncing, and if you are, I will be able to send a reactivation request to that account for you. When you receive this request, all you need to do is follow the steps in that message, and your account will be reactivated. Thanks so much for your help on this, everyone! --Kelley, for the Mods From grosich at nyc.rr.com Sat Mar 1 20:45:33 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina R Rosich) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 15:45:33 -0500 Subject: Clues in GoF (WAS: Clues in CoS) In-Reply-To: <1046518470.1918.22164.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53000 From: "ggershman77 " An important clue from GoF, in my opinion, is at the end when Harry is listing off the Death Eaters that he learned of when combating Voldemort. Watch for Snape's reaction: "Look, I saw Voldemort come back!" Harry shouted. He tried to get out of bed again, but Mrs. Weasley forced him back. "I saw the Death Eaters! I can give you their names! Lucius Malfoy -" Snape made a sudden movement, but as Harry looked at him, Snape's eyes flew back to Fudge." I am guessing that there is some relationship between Snape and L. Malfoy that we dont know about. It is entirely possible that, as Pettigrew noted, not all the Death Eaters were aware of who was and was not a Deather Eater, and some were acting under the influence. Many were charged and absolved. Perhaps Snape did not know that Lucius was in cahoots with Voldie. Or, perhaps Snape realizes that, since Malfoy is on the Board of the school, his trechery to Voldemort will be revealed. Perhaps Snapes mission is to Lucius, and not to Voldemort. Anyway, I think it is a clue. Oh, and Snape is not a vampire. ;-) **** Greetings. My name is Gina and I have been lurking for a few weeks on this list. I've become totally obsessed with the books and particularly Snape, who I think is an amazing character. "Good" but not "nice", mysterious, complicated, sharp, sexy, and just fascinating. As for this scene, I've given it some bit of thought. It occurs to me that it is probably not common knowledge who all the death eaters are. And the room is filled with, shall we say, mixed company. Snape doesn't know that Harry knew he was a DE. I'm guessing Mrs. Weasley doesn't know, even if Arthur does work for the MoM. And, of course, who else is in the room? Not only is it very dangerous knowledge for Harry to know the names of all the death eaters. But I think Snape fears that Harry will mention his name. He flinches nervously and wants to shut Harry up, because, who knows what will come out of his mouth and possibly ruin something Snape is working on. Fudge is also an unpredictable at this point. He is so frustratingly obstinate in this scene that Snape eventually gives in to that frustration and shows him the dark mark--which is an incredibly revealing and dramatic move for someone so private and calculating as Snape. I do not think for a minute that Snape is in cahoots with Malfoy. I think he knows Malfoy's deal and has remained quiet so he can continue to be effective in whatever he does for Dumbledore. And he doesn't want Harry blurting something out which might ruin it. He also doesn't want Fudge to know any more than he already knows. And something tells me there is more to the story than Fudge knows, but Fudge doesn't know it. Come book 5, Harry is coming in league with the "big boys" in more ways. I am interested to see if Snape treats Harry any differently considering what he knows and what has transpired. Oh, and Lucius is no longer on the board. He was ousted in book 2. And I don't think Snape is a vampire. He already has one major secret identity. He may have history, but I think being a vampire wouldn't serve the story. --- Gina From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Sat Mar 1 22:25:00 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib ) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 22:25:00 -0000 Subject: book 7: back to the future theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53001 Way before I ever started coming here and delving far into the books I had an idea for how the books may end. I haven't been able to find this discussed in any of the archives, and thought I'd post it to see if y'all spot anything in the canon that may support (or go against) it. I think JKR has mentioned in an interview that either time travel or the time turner will be used again. My idea, which I call the Back to the Future Theory: Probably in book 7, Harry realizes that he cannot defeat Voldemort "on his own" (Voldemort has gotten too strong, etc.). And so Harry is given the option of traveling back in time (time turner?) to defeat Tom Riddle - and thus stop Voldemort. (or possibly he will change an even in Riddle's life that will stop him from becoming Voldemort). Ethical questions Harry must consider: he will be changing history. This means that he will have no memory of defeating V. Also, it may mean that his parents never fall in love - and that he is never born. In addition, Harry will no longer be famous for being "the boy who lived" - and though he is not always fond of his celebrity, he also doesn't know what it would be like to not have it around and not be considered special. (Wasn't Harry warned about the fickle nature of celebrity in CoS?) And, at the very least, Harry may never meet and befriend Ron, Hermione, etc... But Harry ultimately chooses to (potentially) sacrifice his (known) life for the greater good of the wizarding world. Within this theory I have a foggy view of the 7th books' last chapter - it's Hogwarts graduation day, Harry is there, his parents and Lupin (maybe this change in history even means he doesn't get bitten by the werewolf?) and Black are there. Maybe Cedric has become a professor and is there (certainly anyone who died in the books would be there - *sniff, sniff*). And either he *is* still friends with Ron and Hermione or he has a moment when the three all catch each others' eyes and feel an oddly strong connection. The last sentence would be Harry, pushing his unruly hair away from his forehead, and there being no scar. So, that's my idea. It's dangerously close to being "Bobby stepping out of the shower"/it's all a dream, but maybe Dumbledore can give Harry, Hermione, and Ron some sort of award at graduation. This will, of course, puzzle everyone (in that way that Dumbledore tends to do), since no one will know what he's talking about, but will show the readers that it wasn't necessarily "just a dream." And maybe HHR will be puzzled, but also have some deep down understanding that it isn't just Dumbledore being Dumbledore. (But even Dumbledore giving Harry a twinkling look when he's with his parents would be enough to satisfy this, too.) I'm not a bang-er at heart, but I do think that there will be a bang of some sort at the end of the 7th book - but also a large enough section afterwards of emotional goodbyes (ala the last episode of "Family Ties" but hopefully not nearly so cheesy), and this theory accomodates that emotional need. Dumbledore could even sit Harry down and tell him the story of what happened (summing up the books for us, and also showing us how D's knowledge fills in all the holes everywhere. ie telling us *exactly* what happened and answering all of our tiny questions). I was leery about posting this (since I have no strong supporting evidence), but then I thought that those out there that are more familiar with the books might be able to help me dig through the canon for some proof. (or at least for proof of there not being evidence that goes against this...) Also, this theory is my baby (sometimes keeps me happy late at night when I'm imagining all the horrible events that are yet to come in the next three books) and I wanted to share the warm fuzzies. -nobody's rib, who is certain that this theory can be ripped apart and proved false From sunscape at icehouse.net Sat Mar 1 22:34:19 2003 From: sunscape at icehouse.net (oddment708 ) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 22:34:19 -0000 Subject: Snape/Neville/Trevor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53002 I recently read and re-read the HP books and found myself unexpectedly obsessed with the Potterverse. As the only adult (45+) I knew of with any interest in the series(other than the token "Potter is pure evil relatives"),I was getting worried about my grip on reality ("Mental, Ron sighed, shaking his head...."). On my way to St. Mungo's I stumbled (on the hem of my robes, no doubt) into HPfGU and have been lurking here with relief and delight for a couple weeks..... Has anyone wondered if Snape's constant picking on and threatening of Neville (and Trevor) may be more than plain meanness? Like maybe he wants to break through a memory charm using pressure, psychological torture or panic? Or expose Trevor as something other than a toad? I'm not sure how you break a memory charm, but it appears to involve pain or suffering or survival instinct as in Neville's magical ability revealed when he was dropped as a small child or LV's comment that the methods he used to extract info from memory charmed B. Jorkins left her body and mind useless. Or maybe I just want darkly conflicted, mysterious Snape to be good intentioned. CP-former lurker From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sat Mar 1 23:11:17 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd ) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 23:11:17 -0000 Subject: Don't Go To the Ball With Viktor Krum (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53003 This filk is based on "The Tennis Song" from the Larry Gelbart musical "City of Angels". I dedicate this song to Caius Marcus, who actually found a link to the music of "City of Angels": http://www.broadwaymidi.com/shows/city_of_angels.html Don't Go To the Ball With Viktor Krum Scene: Ron confronts Hermione during the period leading up to the Tri-Wizard Tournament Second Task, before the Yule Ball. Ron: I saw that you were with Krum. Hermione: He was in the Library. Ron: So tell me why did he come? Hermione: Well, he came to talk to me. He was working up courage to ask me a question. Ron: I bet it was really dumb! Hermione: I'll go to the Ball with Viktor Krum. Ron: It's just to make him join S.P.E.W. Hermione: No, he just wants to be nice. Ron: I can't agree with that view. Hermione: I can't accept your advice. And the Tri-Wizard Tournament's purpose is friendship. Ron: I don't believe he is our chum. Don't go to the Ball with Viktor Krum. Hermione: You don't treat me like a girl. Ron: I leave all that to "Vicky". Hermione: At least he treats me like a girl; Can't afford to be picky. Ron: On that I quite concur. Hermione: Why don't you go ask Fleur? Ron: The Second Task will be rough. I say our goal is to win. Hermione: I think you've said quite enough. This competition is sin. Ron: I think you're being quite contrary To work with that bum. Hermione: No, I'm for Harry. Ron: Then help him fathom that Egg. Hermione: Well, do you have any doubt? Ron: Harry should not have to beg. Hermione: And I think you shouldn't pout. Ron: Then you had best shake a leg. You know that time's running out! Ron: I heard that you will visit him. I'd like to tear him limb from limb. Hermione: You're far too grim; I think you should keep mum. Your complaints are wearing thin-- Ron: He thinks your name is "Herm-Own-Ninny". (As Duet) Ron: Don't go to the Ball with Viktor Krum. Hermione: I'll go to the Ball with Viktor Krum. Haggridd From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Sat Mar 1 23:53:33 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea Moggach) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 18:53:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Clues from GofF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030301235333.33676.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53004 I also wonder if the twins will remember to buy Ron a new dress robe, as Harry requested. How will they explain to Ron where the money came from? I'm also new to this site and ECSTATIC to see other hp fans with such a serious interest. Lea --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rpquate at earthlink.net Sun Mar 2 00:03:27 2003 From: rpquate at earthlink.net (redandgoldlion ) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 00:03:27 -0000 Subject: Flesh-eating slug repellent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53005 Hello, Quite a while ago, I started a discussion on flesh-eating slug repellent. Here's the important part of it: ...>In CoS when Harry is in Knockturn Alley, he runs into Hagrid. Now > when Harry asks Hagrid what he's doing there, Hagrid says something > like,I'm getting flesh eating slug repellent because they slugs are > ruining the school cabbages (sorry I can't site that, I don't have my > book with me). I was wondering why *flesh* eating slugs would be > eating *cabbages> <...> > I suppose Rowling could have meant, "The pulpy, usually edible part > of a fruit or vegetable," but I somehow feel she meant us to think > she was talking about animal flesh. > I don't know if Mrs. Rowling just hadn't thought about it, or if > it's suppose to be a clue to some future plot. What was Hagrid > *really* doing in Knockturn Alley? Chances are, I just grossly > misinterpreted something.... Many people replied and pointed out that they always though "flesh- eating" referred to the repellent, not the slugs. Today I was re- reading PoA and I read this when Lupin is taking about boggarts: "...a headless corpse or a *flesh-eating slug?..." (my emphasis)This means, IMHO, that the slugs are indeed "flesh-eating." On a side note, I'm a *huge* fan of Hagrid, and I don't think he had any "sinister" reason for being in Knockturn Alley, except, perhaps, getting some terrible new monster. ;-) ~redandgoldlion~ From karenwickersham at ameritech.net Sun Mar 2 01:22:15 2003 From: karenwickersham at ameritech.net (karywick ) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 01:22:15 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on Wands (slightly long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53006 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " wrote: > > > Back to printed fictional reality. My analysis of wandmaking, and I > have analysed it because I'm using it in a story (for reference, > Harry's next wand, in my world, will be Holly handle, Yew shaft, and > Dragon Heart core with a dragon carved into the handle), (snip)> > My personal theory on 'the wand chooses the wizard' is that there is a > magical harmonic resonance between the wand and the wizard. Like the > opera singer breaking the glass, when things resonate in harmony, the > whole is greater than the sum of it's parts, and that harmonic > resonance is what makes a specific wand extra powerful when it is in > the hands of a well matched wizard. > So, Steve- do you think that Harry will need a new wand after resolving the climax with Voldmort??Is his wand just matched to this task since it has been stated that it's twin is LV's or is it particularily well matched to Harry because it has Fawkes' feather in it? I think that somehow the wands lenght might have something to do with the height or physical strenght of the person just from the clue that Fluers is so short and Hagrids is so long and everyone's else is in between. The type of wood might have something to do with what their special ability is. Maybe the wood in LV is better for do Dark Magic and Harry's wood is better for defending the Dark Arts as everyone seems to hint is his talent. Otherwise why would there be a reason to mention the different wood at all? The core has to have to do with something that would give that particular person more magical power or strength. I've been wondering then why would Voldemort's wand have Fawke's feather in it? A crazy thought went though my head, "what would you take from a serpent representing Salazar, a cast off skin???" Or does the fact the LV has the twin to Harry's wand say somewthing more about his parentage that we will find out later on? Maybe he stole it, but then why would both Ollivander and Dumbledore know that he had the twin to Harry's? Did LV get this wand at eleven,like the others from Ollivander, before attending Hogwarts, and being sorted, before turing bad? I never felt that Wizards cast off wand for new ones all the time unless a catastrophe happened like with Ron and they were required to buy a new one that fit them well. As far as the Unicorh hair- I thought that a few weeks ago someone mentioned that all Weasleys had Unicorn hair in their wands. It doesn't seem with all the hand craftsmanship that wands could just be easily repaired with a spell like others in the past few days have suggested on this list. I know I've suggested more questions than offered answers but I've always wondered about LV's wand and wonder what other's thought. Thanks but its one of those things I've been wondering on those insomiac nights when I can't stop my brain from wandering! ;) Kary From vincentjh at yahoo.com Sun Mar 2 02:08:43 2003 From: vincentjh at yahoo.com (vincentjh ) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 02:08:43 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on Wands (slightly long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53007 Speaking of Hagrid's wand, I don't seem to remember whether or not he's allowed to use wand after his name was cleared. If not, why? VJH, back to lurkdom. From lilpurplealdy at netscape.net Sun Mar 2 02:53:46 2003 From: lilpurplealdy at netscape.net (Juliet ) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 02:53:46 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on Wands (slightly long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53008 VJH: >>Speaking of Hagrid's wand, I don't seem to remember whether or not he's allowed to use wand after his name was cleared. If not, why?>> Well, his wand was snapped in half when he was expelled, thus that kinda prevented him from using it(or so they thought! *glances at pink umbrella*). I always assumed this was sort of a humiliation, like a little added punishment for being expelled. Now, on to making wands. Steve, in his post, brings up magical harmony a lot. I find that very likely to be the truth. As to wand size, I think that is probably physical(as someone else already mentioned). Take Hagrid, as an example. He's *huge*, "almost too be big to be allowed", so it would make sense, physically, for him to have a big wand. It's probably just easier for him to use. I'm reminded of that old Mickey Mouse cartoon where Mickey climbs the beanstalk with Donald, and they end up in the Giant's house, where everything is huge. As for handles, and maybe also partially wand size(for people who aren't larger/smaller than average), Ollivander probably makes a wide variety, so as to have a wider choice. I'd always assumed Voldemort did buy his at 11. Ollivander did say he sold the wand that gave Harry the scar, so I'd just assumed that Tom Riddle had gone into the shop, like every other 11 y/o, and bought a wand. Though, the possibility of him stealing it never entered my head. Perhaps he broke his wand, and thus picked one up from a dead foe, because, well, I'm not sure how wise it woud've been for him to just waltz into Ollivander's. A side question: I wonder how much/if the Wizarding World has changed in Book 5. Afterall, when we left in Book 4, LV had just come back to power. So, will Harry return to the WW from the Dursley's to find it in havoc, and will he be getting war letter from Ron and Hermione now...? ~Aldrea, who's mind is buzzing with theories. From lilpurplealdy at netscape.net Sun Mar 2 04:04:19 2003 From: lilpurplealdy at netscape.net (Juliet ) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 04:04:19 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore going to die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53009 Ing wrote: >>We only know the names of a few of them, but it seems that three out of the five mentioned (Dumbledore, Mundungus, and Arabella) are quite old. >> Well, if you buy into Polyjuiced!Arabella, then she isn't as old as we think she is... ;) >>Only Sirius and Lupin are young, and they each have their problems anyway. I'm starting to wonder how effective they are going to be in the upcoming struggle and whether that will play a significant role in the plot.>> I don't doubt Lupin and Black's abilities, including their one to overcome their personal problems and thus become a huge help. My thoughts, on someone planing to attack Hogwarts, has often reminded me of a line from the X-men Movie: "I feel a great swell of pity for the poor fool who comes to that school... looking for trouble." With all the Wizards and Witches out there who would fight for good(your list excluded the Weasleys, whom I think will be part of [or if they aren't already, then joining] the "old crowd"), and then add to that the number of students/teachers in that school who would be more than willing to fight to defend it, I've always seen an attack rather pointless. ~Aldrea, who was recently re-reading her HP books, and(never having heard of either of these theories/thoughts before) was planning to make a post questioning the Arabella-Cabbage-Polyjuice connection and the Can Hagrid Apparate Question...but on searching the archive, thought better of it. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Mar 2 05:00:05 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 05:00:05 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on Wands (slightly long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53010 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "karywick " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " > wrote: > > > > > ... My analysis of wandmaking, ... I'm using it in a story (for > > reference, Harry's next wand, in my world, will be Holly handle, > > Yew shaft, and Dragon Heart core with a dragon carved into the > > handle), ... > > > > My ... theory on 'the wand chooses the wizard' is that there > > is a magical harmonic resonance between the wand and the wizard. > > ...edited... > > > > -end- bboy_mn KARY: > So, Steve- ... Harry will need a new wand after ... the climax with > Voldmort?? > > Is his wand just matched to this task ... or is it ... > matched to Harry because it has Fawkes' feather in it? > I think ... the wands length might have ..to > do with the height or physical strength of the person ... Fluers is > so short and Hagrids is so long .... > > The type of wood might have something to do with what their special > ability is. ...edited... > > The core has to have to do with something that would give that > particular person more magical power or strength. I've been > wondering then why would Voldemort's wand have Fawke's feather in > it? ...edited... > > I never felt that Wizards cast off wand for new ones all the time > unless a catastrophe happened ... ... Unicorh hair- ... a few weeks > ago someone mentioned ... Weasleys had Unicorn hair.... ... wands > could just be easily repaired with a spell ... suggested on this > list. > > I know I've suggested more questions than offered answers but I've > always wondered about LV's wand and wonder what other's thought. > > Thanks but its one of those things I've been wondering on those > insomiac nights when I can't stop my brain from wandering! ;) > > Kary bboy_mn: Harry's new wand - remember that is in my fan fiction not the actual book. Harry saves a homeless boy by giving him a scholarship to Hogwarts. This boy and his friend apprentice with Ollivander and one of their first experimental wands happens to match Harry. Harry would never give up his Holly/Phoenix wand, partly because he would feel disloyal to Ollivander. But at the same time, he can't help being very intrigued by finding another matching wand. Harry's current wand - a wand is a very personal thing to a wizard, they develope a deep attachement to it because the two of them are in such perfect harmony. But also because of sentimental reasons, getting your first wand is a big step in a young boys life. It is the first and strongest symbol that a boy is becoming a man. Your first step to truly being a wizard. Almost like an American boy getting his first car. Length - True Hagrid has 16" but Ron has 14" while Harry only has 11". I always suspected those Weasley brothers had big wands (that was a nasty pun and I appologies for it). So Hagrid is a giant, he has 16", Ron is tall and skinny but not especially big in general; he has 14". To my knowledge those are the two biggest wands we've seen to date. Fleur, unless I'm mistake, is also tall and thin, yet she has a short wand. So I don't think there is a direct connection between stature of a person and size of their wand. Not to say it can't come into play but it does so in a minor and secondary way. To some extend you size and stature affect your general nature. Hagrid, being a giant and a generally good person, has had to compenstate for his side by developing a gentle loving nature. However, magic and physical size are not proportional. A tiny little wizard maybe very magically powerful, and a physically large imposing wizard might only be marginally magical. We have to keep in mind that we are dealing with a very abstact force. Yet, there are certain characteristics of wand that speak to the characteristics of a particulat wizard. Harry has Holly, generally associated with life, rebirth, and renewal, and to some extent suffering. Where as Yew, the wood of Voldemort's wand, is associated with death. Wood - working from memory here but I think Willow (re:Lily) was good for charms and Mahogany (re:James) was good for tranfiguration, so obviously different woods have different general magical characteristices. And the next reasonable conclusion is that people who favor Charms magic as their strength, will naturally favor woods that lend themselves to charms. But it is much more refined than that. You can't order a wand from a menu of characteristics and personal preferences. The components must be very precisely matched and them regardless of you intellectual and emotional preferences; you match what you match. So we have to ask, how many Willow/Unicorn Hair wands did Ron try before he found the one that matched him? It is not as simple as 14" of Willow and Unicorn Hair. To get a replacement, because we are dealing with a completely different piece of wood and a completely different unicorn, the new matching wand, his next wand might be 12" with unicorn hair because that is the combination of two very specific components that happen to Magically resonate with Ron. (For reference - in my little FF world, Ron's new wand will be a highly controversial dual core wand, unicorn hair and dragon heart made of Cypress wood) Cores - Like wood, cores have specific general characteristics (I was probably the one you referred to who mentioned this previously). I see dargon heart and phoenix as power wands which would be good for transfiguration; a type of magic that requires a strong burst of magical power to force something to change state. Whereas unicorn hair is better for charms, because, while still needing to be magically powerful, it must also be very refined. Proper charms work requires a very precise application of magic. Phoenix feather, I see, in a sense, as the Royal core, both highly refined and magically powerful. Also, much more rare in both availability and likelihood to match a particular wizard. I suspect wizards with Phoenix feather wands are in a great minority. The Weasleys - oddly, I think I was also the person you are referring to who said that I thought the Weasleys favored unicorn hair. Not absolutely down to the last person, but my own personal opinion is that you will find more unicorn hair in the Weasleys than in a randomly select group of the same number of people. Buying new wands - you are right, wizards and witches don't go out and buy wands as casually as buying a new shirt. A wand is very special and very personal, so people just don't get bored with wands and decide to go get a new one. Only under dire circumstances or by stumbling a cross another well matched wand would a wizard consider buying another one. Or they may seek a second wand that is more attuned to a specific type of magic they want to do, and while it would be nice for that one specific task, it would not work as well as an all-purpose wand. Remember all wizards can use all wands, but you get the best results with a closely matched wand. Wand construction - let me continue with the musical harmonic resonance analogy to illustrate wand making. Steel and brass don't have the same characteristics. A musical tuning fork made of steel would be a much different size and shape than bass to product the same musical note. Aluminun would be different than either brass or steel, etc.... Now let's make a wooden box that resonates at the same frequence as the tuning fork. When you do this and the tuning fork is placed on the box, the sound is greatly amplified. Because they resonate together and re-enforce each other, the resulting amplitude is greater that the combined value of the individual forces of the tuning fork or the box. The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. Now we consider the material the box is made out of, certainly a soft pine wood box is going to be a different size and shape than a hard wood oak box. And because the density and pliability of individual pieces of oak will differ, so to will the boxes made from those different pieces of oak. Referring back to the metal in the tuning fork, different pieces of metal are going to have different densities, temper, and purity, and therefore, just as with wood, no two pieces of metal are truly alike. Each steel tuning fork will be slightly different from another steel tuning fork of the same pitch. So we have a wide variety of metals and a wide variety of woods that can be combined in various way to create a tuning fork and resonant box of a given pitch. And while identical material components will be very similar, there will be no two alike. I have given an illustration that involves mechanical physics and it does serve as a good illustration of my point, but we must remember that magic in not physical or mechanical, it is a very deep mysterious abstract force that resonates in a world defined only by itself. So, we have to put some limitations on how much emphasis we place on basic physical characteristics of a wand. Mr. Ollivander is creating wands using an deep esoteric intuitive magical 6th sense that has been hone from years, perhaps centuries of experience. He is weighing components against each other based on parameters that we mere muggles and a majority of magical people can and will never understand. That's why wandmaking is truly an art form, it can only be done well by those who are truly gifted in the art. So, I still stand by my position regarding how wands are construction and how a wand picks a particular wizard. At least, that's MY story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Sun Mar 2 05:13:01 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 05:13:01 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on Wands (slightly long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53011 Replies to both Kary and Aldrea in this post. Kary wrote: I never felt that Wizards cast off wand for new ones all the time unless a catastrophe happened like with Ron and they were required to buy a new one that fit them well. I reply: Well, we do know canonically that Ron's first wand is actually Charlie's old wand, so I'd guess that it wasn't damaged irreparably. I don't have the books handy, but I thought that even when Ron first had it, the unicorn hair was sticking slightly out of the end of the wand anyways. However, this doesn't necessarily constitute a damaged wand, since I didn't gather that Ron was impaired by his wand at all in PS/SS, at least definitely not to the degree that he was in CoS. Aldrea wrote: I'd always assumed Voldemort did buy his at 11. Ollivander did say he sold the wand that gave Harry the scar, so I'd just assumed that Tom Riddle had gone into the shop, like every other 11 y/o, and bought a wand. I reply: I'd like to assume that as well, but since Tom Riddle was born in 1927, that would mean that Harry's wand sat idly for, oh, what, sixty- five years? Does that make sense? In other words, that kind of creates this "wand of destiny" feel for the whole endeavor? Like, the wand was created and waited patiently for its true owner for all that time? I'm sure that's definitely plausible. It just seems odd, IMO. And it's always possible that the second feather was taken at a later date, right? I mean, Fawkes is, um, recyclable, so theoretically he could continue giving out wands, and theoretically would they all be the "brothers" of Harry's wand? Since Voldemort's wand is thirteen and a half inches, and Harry's is only eleven, then IMO it would be reasonable to suggest that they could have been taken at different times. I understand that they could have been taken from different parts of the bird as well, but that just seems, well, I dunno. Unlikely. Can't explain it past that, although I thought that they were both tail-feathers. Personally, I agree that the wand that does choose the wizard would seem to represent the wizard physically. And given Ollivander's summaries in "The Weighing of the Wands," about flexibility and so forth, I also got the idea that the wands somehow represented the personality of the wizard as well. And as Steve pointed out, there are definitely other wandmakers. And if Gregorovich prefers inflexible materials, then I'd guess that it's more a matter of technique, since he, like Ollivander, would logistically have to accomodate a large range of personality types. In other words, probably Gergorovich could have provided Harry with an equally workable wand. But insofar as it's some kind of exact science, well, I dunno 'bout that. After all, wizards, IMHO don't really seem to have difficulties using each others' wands, despite the fact that the wand chooses the wizard. Sure, I agree that they probably won't get the best results possible. But honestly, if we think about it, the whole system seems totally odd. For instance, Charlie would appear to have gotten a second wand despite his first (if it is even his first) being in working order. So, are the wands "jealous" of each other? I know that's silly, but you see my point... somehow a wizard can use other wands without there being some kind of massive disturbance, which begs the question of exactly how individual each wand is to the wizard using it. We can't, for instance, expect the wands to know *when* they're right for the wizard or not. All we can reasonably expect is simply for a wand to "know" that it is either a proper fit, or it's not. I'd guess that even if Ollivander hadn't selected the twin wand for Harry, eventually they still would have found another fit, and maybe possibly, there's an even better fit still out there waiting to be found. -Tom From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Mar 2 05:28:45 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 05:28:45 -0000 Subject: book 7: back to the future theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53012 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nobodysrib " wrote: > My idea, which I call the Back to the Future Theory: Probably in > book 7, Harry realizes that he cannot defeat Voldemort "on his own" > (Voldemort has gotten too strong, etc.). And so Harry is given the > option of traveling back in time (time turner?) to defeat Tom > Riddle - and thus stop Voldemort. (or possibly he will change an > even in Riddle's life that will stop him from becoming Voldemort). > > ...heavy edit... > > Also, this theory is my baby (sometimes keeps me happy late at night > when I'm imagining all the horrible events that are yet to come in > the next three books) and I wanted to share the warm fuzzies. > > -nobody's rib, who is certain that this theory can be ripped apart > and proved false bboy_mn: While I am not a fan of 'it never really happened' or 'it was all a dream' endings for this series, I have to admit that I fine your version very intriguing. It gives us a happy ending with potential for the future of the characters as well as recognition for their efforts from Dumblefore, even thought H/R/H can make no sense of that recognition. I really really really (did I mention really) can not accept any 'Harry loses his power and lives as a muggle' endings, and I am dead set against any Harry dies and stays dead to save the world endings. Normally, I speak out against these types of predictions, but I have to say, I'm not totally turned off by your idea. Indeed, I do find it very very intriguing. My own personal 'it was all something like a dream' ending was Harry sitting in his cupboard under the stairs at age 18 when the Dursley's kick him out, and he is inking that last line of a story he has been writing all these years in an effort to escape his miserable existance and keep himself sane. There is a knocking on the cupboard door, Harry stashes his story in his bag, comes out, and the Dursleys give him a train ticket to London and enough cash for a couple of meals. But Harry is not worried, he knows his future in life lies in the story of a boy who discovers he is a wizard and his 'scar'. I'm not even saying I like this, it just what I came up with for this type of ending. This would make the story something of a metaphor for JKR's life; rags to riches all from the story of a boy with a scar. It's going to be interesting to see how others react to your idea. Intriguing... very intriguing... Sorry I could say anything more productive. bboy_mn From ephilipbar at aol.com Sun Mar 2 02:35:50 2003 From: ephilipbar at aol.com (ephilipbar at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 21:35:50 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Thoughts on Wands (slightly long) Message-ID: <7a.39f68b16.2b92c806@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53013 vincentjh at yahoo.com writes: "Speaking of Hagrid's wand, I don't seem to remember whether or not he's allowed to use wand after he was cleared in COS. If not, why?" me: There is no mention in the subsequent books if he was "cleared to use the wand" or if his being expelled was also "cleared". This being said, Hagrid is, in my opinion, using the wand, somehow concealed in his umbrella (as the core? ). Perhaps this is something JKR will address in OOP and beyond. The fact that Hagrid was expelled during his third year however, may be a stumbling point regardless of his now apparent innocence. Liz (waiting for her UK versions of COS, POA and GOF to arrive so she has reading to keep her busy until June) From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Sun Mar 2 03:13:50 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib ) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 03:13:50 -0000 Subject: Ron's old wand (Was: Re: Thoughts on Wands (slightly long)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53014 Kary wrote: > I never felt that Wizards cast off wand for new ones all the time > unless a catastrophe happened like with Ron and they were required > to buy a new one that fit them well. As far as the Unicorh hair- > I thought that a few weeks ago someone mentioned that all Weasleys > had Unicorn hair in their wands. It doesn't seem with all the > hand craftsmanship that wands could just be easily repaired with a > spell like others in the past few days have suggested on this list. Me: I've always wondered about Ron's first wand - he says in SS that it's a hand-me-down from Charlie. If all Weasley wands have unicorn hairs, then this could explain why Ron is able to make Charlie's old wand work. What I can't wrap my head around is why Charlie would get rid of his old wand in favor of a new one. If it were damaged enough for him to *have to* get a new wand, then wouldn't it be too damaged for Ron to be able to use it? Instead, I think this adds support to the another- Weasley-sibling theory: Charlie had his/her old wand, and when the family could afford it Charlie got a new wand (one that more perfectly fit *him*), passing the old wand down to Ron. - nobody's rib From vincentjh at yahoo.com Sun Mar 2 05:26:05 2003 From: vincentjh at yahoo.com (vincentjh ) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 05:26:05 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on Wands (slightly long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53015 Aldrea wrote: > VJH: > >>Speaking of Hagrid's wand, I don't seem to remember whether or not he's allowed to use wand after his name was cleared. If not, why?>> > > Well, his wand was snapped in half when he was expelled, thus that > kinda prevented him from using it(or so they thought! *glances at > pink umbrella*). I always assumed this was sort of a humiliation, > like a little added punishment for being expelled. > Yes, the old wand was snapped in half. But what I don't understand is why he did not get a new one or perhaps repair the old one after CoS. A complete wand would certainly work better than half (or a tiny piece) of it, right? Unless he's still not allowed to use a wand... -VJH- From grosich at nyc.rr.com Sun Mar 2 06:57:03 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina R Rosich) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 01:57:03 -0500 Subject: Clues from GofF In-Reply-To: <1046577868.6622.94055.m13@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53016 >> on Sat, 01 Mar 2003 misstresskathy at yahoo.com wrote: >> >> Has anyone discussed about at the end of the book where Harry gives >> Fred and George his Triwizard winnings? I can only imagine what they >> will come up with now that they actually have money to work with to >> make up new joke items. >> >> I'm really curious as to how they are going to keep it secret from >> their Mom. She will have to wonder where they are getting the money >> from. *** I?ve been thinking about that too. And two things struck me as interesting. First, in PoA, when Harry and Ron are reading the tea leaves in Trelawney?s class, Ron reads that Harry will come into a large sum of money. And right he is! But not until the next book. Secondly, I can't help but wonder if they boys' penchant for mischief will lead to something more substantial. Like, perhaps Harry invests in their pranks, and those pranks actually have an effect on Voldemort. Wouldn't that be something? In spite of Fred and George's prankster nature, I do think they would not cop out on their promise to Harry. If anything, I am convinced they will make sure their brother Ron is well taken care of. Don't forget. They gave Harry the map because he ?needed it? more than they did. Plus, they are on the Quidditch team together, which forges an even stronger bond. It's Percy I'd watch out for, in that family. --- Gina From lilpurplealdy at netscape.net Sun Mar 2 07:06:55 2003 From: lilpurplealdy at netscape.net (Juliet ) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 07:06:55 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on Wands (slightly long)/Ron's old wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53017 Tom: >>I'd like to assume that as well, but since Tom Riddle was born in 1927, that would mean that Harry's wand sat idly for, oh, what, sixty- five years? Does that make sense?>> I don't see why it shouldn't. Sorry to go Movie on you(but since JKR did have influence, it's hard not to sometimes), but look at the size of Ollivander's shop in the movie. Look at the number of wands. I don't find it at all odd that no one else had gotten that wand, that *exact* wand. There were probably other 11 inch Holly wands with phoenix feather(though not Fawkes's) cores in his shop, but that is the one that fit Harry(and, until Harry came along, fit no one else. That doesn't mean he didn't pull it out and see). Don't ask me why, ask Ollivander (=P). In the books, he knew almost as soon as he put the wand in Harry's hand(without thing's having to explode) that the wands he was giving Harry were wrong. If you read, you notice how with each wrong wand, he changes it up. Dragon heartstring doesn't work? Here, try phoenix. Not beechwood? Here, maple. Then he tried ebony and unicorn hair, switching things up, trying to get a feel for his customer. And when Harry got the right wand, he knew immediately as well(though I'm sure the sparks helped =P). Don't ask me *why*, I'm not a wand maker. You can try and break it up into an exact science, but as Science doesn't usually come into play all that forcefully in the Wizarding World, I have a hard time seeing how it'll keep afloat now. Another, completely off the wall thought-- Ollivander -wanted- Harry to get that wand, or Dumbledore wanted Harry to. I find a mix of the both believable-- Dumbledore could have had a brother wand specially made, and gave Ollivander instructions only to bring it out of its box when Harry shows up on the scene. Dumbledore could very well have planned for Priori Incantatem to happen, perhaps his way of arming Harry against Voldemort. I find the first one more to my taste than the second, but that's just me. Tom: >>In other words, that kind of creates this "wand of destiny" feel for the whole endeavor? Like, the wand was created and waited patiently for its true owner for all that time? >> I'm not sure the wand had much say in that. If Ollivander pulled it out to try on a customer, it's not like it could jump back in the box screaming "Go away! Harry's not here yet!" =P I don't get a "Wand of Destiny" feel. I get a "This Is Another Similarity Between Harry and Voldemort" feel. I've always felt that Voldemort is kind of representative of what Harry could have turned into if he'd gone into Slytherin, or just if he'd gone plain Bad. Tom: >>And it's always possible that the second feather was taken at a later date, right? I mean, Fawkes is, um, recyclable, so theoretically he could continue giving out wands, and theoretically would they all be the "brothers" of Harry's wand?>> Umm...no. Are you implying Fawkes giving out more than just Harry's and Voldemort's? That one isn't possible. Let's look at the canon... "I remember every wand I've ever sold, Mr. Potter. Every single wand. It so happens that the phoenix whose tail feather is in your wand, gave another feather-- just one other." Well, of course, there's always the possibility of Fawkes giving out feathers -after- Harry got his wand... *shrugs* Maybe that's what you meant, my apologies. Tom: >>Since Voldemort's wand is thirteen and a half inches, and Harry's is only eleven, then IMO it would be reasonable to suggest that they could have been taken at different times. >> What does size have to do with the time it was made? Ollivander could have been going around collecting Phoenix feathers, gotten a couple from Fawkes, and then gone to his shop to make wands. *shrugs* And out came a Yew 13 and a Holly 11. Tom: >>I understand that they could have been taken from different parts of the bird as well, but that just seems, well, I dunno. Unlikely. Can't explain it past that, although I thought that they were both tail-feathers.>> I think the tail-feathers thing is somewhere in canon...Oh, lol, it's already in the canon I posted! *points upward* Tom: >>But insofar as it's some kind of exact science, well, I dunno 'bout that. After all, wizards, IMHO don't really seem to have difficulties using each others' wands, despite the fact that the wand chooses the wizard. >> Well, we haven't seen them use them for really long term amounts of time, besides with Ron. And with Ron, who's to say he didn't improve when he got his very *own* wand? We don't get told a whole lot about their grades, just usually that Harry and Ron pass, Hermione is top in every class, and that's it. Ron could very well have improved with his new wand. Tom: >>I'd guess that even if Ollivander hadn't selected the twin wand for Harry, eventually they still would have found another fit, and maybe possibly, there's an even better fit still out there waiting to be found.>> My way of answering that is just by trusting Ollivander, mostly. When Harry got the Right Want, Ollivander just Knew. He didn't second-guess himself, going "Hmm..well...that one -could- work, but let's try this one!". And, IMO, the man has probably sold and made a *lot* of wands, so I'm trusting him. Rib: >>Instead, I think this adds support to the another- Weasley-sibling theory: Charlie had his/her old wand, and when the family could afford it Charlie got a new wand (one that more perfectly fit *him*), passing the old wand down to Ron.>> Lol, well, that just passes the question on to another Weasley. Instead of Why Did Charlie Get Rid of His Old Wand, you get Why Did *insert Weasley sibling name* Get Rid of His/Her Old Wand. Here's an answer: Charlie got his wand second-hand, but not from an older sibling-- from a second-hand shop. When the family could afford him a new one, they got it, and Ron got the hand-me-down, second-hand wand(poor Ron![no pun intended]). ~Aldrea, who's head is starting to spin a bit from all this Science stuff. From lilpurplealdy at netscape.net Sun Mar 2 07:18:59 2003 From: lilpurplealdy at netscape.net (Juliet ) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 07:18:59 -0000 Subject: Hagrid: Allowed to use Wands and Magic...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53018 VJH: > Yes, the old wand was snapped in half. But what I don't understand is > why he did not get a new one or perhaps repair the old one after CoS. > A complete wand would certainly work better than half (or a tiny > piece) of it, right? Unless he's still not allowed to use a wand... > Ah, well, my apologies for not answering you correctly the first time, and just spitting out information you already knew.... Well, that poses some interesting questions. Looking at canon, it looks like Hagrid *wasn't* allowed to do magic: "Be grateful if yeh didn't mention that ter anyone at Hogwarts," he said. "I'm--er--not supposed to do magic, strictly speakin'. I was allowed ter do a bit ter follow ye an' get yer letters to yeh an' stuff-- one o' the reasons I was so keen ter take on the job--" "Why aren't you supposed to do magic?" asked Harry. "Oh, well-- I was at Hogwarts meself but I--er--got expelled, ter tell yeh the truth. In me third year. They snapped me wand in half an' everything." (SS/PS, Pg. 59) Huh. So, it seems Hagrid, upon being expelled, was not allowed to do magic OR to use a wand. We know Underaged Wizards can't do magic, so I'm guessing that might go to Unqualified Wizards, as well(but then why doesn't Hagrid get letters about using them, maybe it's just cause he doesn't have a school that will expel him for it)? If you don't graduate a Magic school, maybe you're not allowed to have a wand/do magic? Or, maybe, that just applies to Hagrid since he was suspected of opening the Chamber of Secrets and such. ~Aldrea, sorry for making a sort of "double post", but she didn't see this reply until after posting the other one. Ah, well, let's give it a new title. :) From catlady at wicca.net Sun Mar 2 12:10:27 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) ) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 12:10:27 -0000 Subject: 3rd Evans sis/Powers that V gave H/Most Charming Smile/Founders' Stuff in SH Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53019 Elisabeth, a rude mechanical, wrote: << could Narcissa Malfoy be the sister of Lily and Petunia? As far as I know, JK Rowling has never made clear Lily's parentage, whether muggle or wizarding. Remember, Petunia and Narcissa have very similar physical features. >> I personally have a theory that I feel sure JKR won't use: that Petunia was Narcissa's sister, in some proud and evil pure-blood family, but they somehow discovered that she was a Squib when she was just a toddler. Too proud to keep a Squib in the family, they dumped her on some Muggles with whom they were acquainted, the Evanses. Petunia was left hating magic because of a very vague memory that magic is the reason her first family rejected her. The Evanses were thrilled about having a witch in the family (their biological daughter) because they already knew about the wizarding world ... I can make up plenty of stories about how the Evanses could have come to meet the wizarding world: perhaps Mrs. Evans's brother married a woman whom he didn't know was a witch until after the wedding. Lil House Elf wrote: << What other powers could Voldemort have given to Harry? >> Harry is a "natural" at flying his broomstick and catching a small flying object when his first flying lesson had only just begun. I always wonder if flying, Quidditch, and Seeking are skills (or powers) which Voldemort gave to Harry along with that scar. In light of the way that Harry goes on about not being any good at anything except Quidditch, I think he would agonize over the discovery that his talent was not innately his, but had been implanted in him by his enemy. In addition, I agree with Cheryl the Lynx that the reason that the name Tom Riddle rang a distant bell for Harry is that Voldemort gave him some vague memories as well as some powers. Maria wrote: << who's waiting to find out who wins the Witch Weekly Most Charming Smile Award now that poor Gilderoy is sick at St. Mungo's. >> Sirius, once his name is cleared so he can come out of hiding. Andrea wrote: << I think Rowena's would be some sort of enchanted scroll, but I'm having a hard time coming up with objects for the other two. >> I quote my own post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/51894 from 8 Feb 03: "Shehrzad wrote: << So maybe DD did tell Fawkes to bring the hat, but it wouldn't be just because the hat could give him the sword. Although he probably thought it would be, it could have also been a bow and arrow (wisdom) a shield (loyalty) or a short sword (ambition) >> I was wondering about this all week, while I was off-line: what would Harry have pulled from the Hat if he had been the prot?g? of one of the other Founders? I thought maybe: The wand of Slytherin, symbol/tool of magic, as Salazar was so concerned about distinguishing magic from non-magic people. The pen of Ravenclaw, because she was into scholarship. The pen has the advantage of being a quill, thus punning on her feathery name (raven) and symbol (eagle), but a parchment with a useful spell written on it might be equally appropriate and rather more helpful. The broom of Hufflepuff, which Helga herself used for sweeping the floor (by waving her wand and telling it to sweep) but Harry could perhaps have put a Levitation spell on and used it to fly with. " From urbana at charter.net Sun Mar 2 15:24:37 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne ) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 15:24:37 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on Wands (slightly long) In-Reply-To: <7a.39f68b16.2b92c806@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53020 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, ephilipbar at a... wrote: > vincentjh at y... writes: >> Hagrid > is, in my opinion, using the wand, somehow concealed in his umbrella (as the > core? ). "[Hagrid] brought the umbrella swishing down through the air to point at Dudley -- there was a flash of violet light, a sound like a firecracker, a sharp squeal, and the next second, Dudley was dancing on the spot, his hands clasped over his fat bottom, howling in pain. When he turned his back to them, Harry saw a curly pig's tail poking through a hole in his trousers. ... "'...Meant to turn him into a pig, but I suppose he was so much like a pig anyway there wasn't much left ter do....' "'Be grateful if yeh didn't mention that ter anyone at Hogwarts,' he said. "I'm -- er -- not supposed ter do magic, strictly speakin'..." (PS/SS, p. 59, US paperback) I'd say your opinion is spot-on. We can't actually *see* Hagrid's wand, but IMO the chances of his umbrella being enchanted specifically to put a pig's tail on Dudley's bottom are pretty remote. Anne U (able to find this quote only because I'd just re-read this chapter to my daughter last night) From flamingstarchows at att.net Sun Mar 2 15:38:30 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 09:38:30 -0600 Subject: /Powers that V gave H/ References: Message-ID: <002c01c2e0d1$c791c100$881a570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 53021 ----- Original Message ----- From: Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) Harry is a "natural" at flying his broomstick and catching a small flying object when his first flying lesson had only just begun. I always wonder if flying, Quidditch, and Seeking are skills (or powers) which Voldemort gave to Harry along with that scar. In light of the way that Harry goes on about not being any good at anything except Quidditch, I think he would agonize over the discovery that his talent was not innately his, but had been implanted in him by his enemy. ----Me---- It is mentioned several times by different people that Harry's father was a very good flyer and Quidditch player. (That is one of the few things we know about James.) So, the most logical thing is for that particular ability to be inherited from James. He looks so much like his father it would not be surprising that he inherited other traits of his as well. ~Cathy~ From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Mar 2 16:02:13 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 2 Mar 2003 16:02:13 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1046620933.22.14290.m4@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53022 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, March 2, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CST (GMT-06:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Sun Mar 2 16:30:25 2003 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst ) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 16:30:25 -0000 Subject: Snape/Neville/Trevor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53023 Hello CP, I extend a hand of welcome on behalf ogf the rest of the group (I'm sure they won't mind me taking that liberty). I too am obsessed, particularly with Snape as he is the most complex character and I am a girl with a bit of a complex about apparently unpleasant byronic hero types. I wonder myself if Snape's attitude to Neville could be purposive, or memrely an unfortunate collision of their two personalities. With regard to the former....I have some random, devil's advocate thoughts. I suspect that magical ability is mental, though not related to intellect ncessarily. I imagine that what Bertha was exposed to was psychological torture of the sort used by a muggle holding someone captive to extract information, though it may well have ben administered with magic the physical effects on the brain would be the same. (e.g it could be argued in this way that veritaserum is in fact a sort of imagination and logic supressant, so it is n't possible to pretend or to construct a scenario that fits). I don't know if muggle therapists would consider re-exposing someone to conditions of stress/fear to be an effective way of forcing them to remember the original situation and if this in itself would help them to recover from the memory loss that was a reaction to the trauma. Maybe someone here has experience of that area? Perhaps Snape would've given up on this by now anyway, if it was indeed his original plan, because in 4 years it has not worked. I doubt his personality is touchy feely enough to enable him to go to the next stage of helping Neville wiht acceptance or positivity, even if the memory charm was broken and the reason for his trauma and the consequential numbling revealed. The alternative view is that Snape just hates Neviile, and this could again be for several reasons. Perhaps he is a teacher who like a lot of teachers, dislikes those who struggle in their classes because it's frustrating demoralising and sometimes incomprehensible to someone who does have a skill, that someone else does not. This might lead to the conclusion that Neville is n't trying and being a rotter is Snape's way of trying to focus the boy's concentration. He might even do it because he feels guilty about Neville being a virtual orphan and also responsible - either as a former DE or as a spy who could n't protect the Longbottoms with information. Neville is a constant reminder of his moral and professional failure and that must be exteremely intolerable for someone with so much pride and to whom power is so important. Rather than trying extra hard to be nice to Neviile due to guilt, Snape's temper causes him to be unable to respond in that way. "Toughening up" sensitive children is a method of aleviating his feelings that Snape can feel better about. At some level Snape might blame people like Neville for allowing him, through their weakness, to exercise his worst impulses as well. He feels like his victims as a DE were culpable for his actions perpetrated aginst them. I think he takes responsibility on an intellectual level but is angry that he turned out that way and does n't believe anymore in pre-determination. Sorry it's long. I could write a PHD thesis on Snape easily and become the first ever Dr. of Snape-Apologistics (sounds suitable posh, i think!). Hope that helps Sanpesangel xx From megrose_13 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 2 16:41:47 2003 From: megrose_13 at yahoo.com (Meg ) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 16:41:47 -0000 Subject: book 7: back to the future theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53024 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nobodysrib " > wrote: > > > My idea, which I call the Back to the Future Theory: Probably in > > book 7, Harry realizes that he cannot defeat Voldemort "on his own" > > (Voldemort has gotten too strong, etc.). And so Harry is given the > > option of traveling back in time (time turner?) to defeat Tom > > Riddle - and thus stop Voldemort. (or possibly he will change an > > even in Riddle's life that will stop him from becoming Voldemort). > > > > ...heavy edit... > > > > Also, this theory is my baby (sometimes keeps me happy late at night > > when I'm imagining all the horrible events that are yet to come in > > the next three books) and I wanted to share the warm fuzzies. > > > > -nobody's rib, who is certain that this theory can be ripped apart > > and proved false Ok, maybe I'm reeeealy stretching this now, but maybe this could explain the glint in Dumbledore's eye that seems like triumph when Harry reports that Voldemort is becoming stronger. Perhaps Dumbledore knows that Harry has (will have, is about to - depending on when Harry actually goes back in time to...) defeated him or stopped him from becoming Voldemort and so on. Therefore, it would be triumph in his eye because he knows that everything will change and be all hunky-dory. Well, there's my initial thoughts to this theory. I agree though - it is very intriguing. I don't know if I would be able to handle that if it really happened - I mean, Harry not being famous, not knowing Ron, and not even having the scar!?! {Ahh!!} Meg Rose From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 2 18:44:53 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 18:44:53 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] WQ References: <1046518470.1918.22164.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001d01c2e0eb$d0a97ca0$dd4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 53025 Shaun wrote: > Well, consider IQ and a muggle school the size of Hogwarts - with 300 kids (near the > low end of estimates for Hogwarts size), the maximum IQ you would expect in a school > statistically be around IQ143. At 1000 kids (the general upper bound), you'd expect > somewhere around IQ149. Allowing for the fact that Hogwarts seems to be an elite > school with fairly stringent entry requirements... basically at most, you'd expect about 1 > kid at around IQ160 at most in the school at any one time. I wonder if it would have to be measured as Magical Quotient rather than intelligence! > Actually, Hermione comes up a bit in a lot of gifted discussion groups - general view > puts her at around IQ140-145 or so - very bright, capable of anything she wants to do, if > she's willing to do the work - and willing to do that work. The arguments for that are very > complex, and they are just arguments - no clear answers. Given that IQ testing is so culturally specific, I would have thought that a muggle-born person like Hermione would do extremely badly in a wizard IQ test. Mind you, the reverse would also be the case. And that's even if you assume that wizards have any concept of IQ anyway... > Some parents might petition, if the talent can develop early. But just because they > petition, doesn't mean it happens. Weekly, I have to deal with kids whose parents would > love to see them in a more challenging environment - and where the doors just aren't > opened. Generally it comes down to bureaucracy - and the Wizarding World seems to > have enough of that going (-8. Canon doesn't really help us with what happens to WW children before the age of 11. One interesting point is that although WW children will have grown up in an environment where magical methods for doing everything are the norm, the muggle raised students don't seem to have any problem keeping up with the wizard born, even though absolutely all the concepts are totally new to them. I'm not sure why this should be. It can't be that the wizard talent emerges at a certain age (like puberty) - as puberty doesn't arrive at any fixed age, and we know that magical things happened to Harry long before he arrived at Hogwarts. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 2 19:12:14 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 19:12:14 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Old Firm References: <1046577868.6622.94055.m13@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003001c2e0ef$a3034020$dd4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 53026 Aldrea wrote: > Ing wrote: > >>We only know the names of a few of them, but it seems that > three out of the five mentioned (Dumbledore, Mundungus, and > Arabella) are quite old. >> > > Well, if you buy into Polyjuiced!Arabella, then she isn't as old as > we think she is... ;) But of course that's not yet established. My own little speculation on that point is that Arabella, Albus, and Mundungus were at Hogwarts at the same time and that they were close friends at that time and since - hence the "old firm". But here's a further piece of wild speculation. We know that witches take their husbands' surnames on marriage (though we don't know why or when this came about - maybe through Muggle acculturation) which means that Mrs Figg wasn't necessarily born with than name. What if she is Harry's grandmother or great grandmother and that's why she's doing the watcher thang? The only risk in that as far as I can see is that just possibly the Dursleys might have met her at Lily's wedding (if they went...) My only slight unhappiness about her is that given her newly revealed status, why didn't she make Harry's childhood visits more palatable than she did? > My thoughts, on someone planing to attack Hogwarts, has often > reminded me of a line from the X-men Movie: "I feel a great swell of > pity for the poor fool who comes to that school... looking for > trouble." With all the Wizards and Witches out there who would fight Yes. If Voldemort wanted to carry out the maximum act of terrorism ,then the attack would be on the _Express_ - pretty much all the students are together, outside the protection of the school and its staff, with a certain number of sympathisers on board to disrupt any attempt to defend it. Children lined up outside the train in front of Voldemort and given the choice of swearing as a Death Eater or being killed on the spot. _Very_ nasty thought Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From srsiriusblack at aol.com Sun Mar 2 19:53:36 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 14:53:36 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] book 7: back to the future theory Message-ID: <10c.2045c9c8.2b93bb40@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53027 Hello nobodysrib at yahoo.com, In reference to your comment: ? I think JKR has mentioned in an interview that either ? time travel or the time turner will be used again. My ? idea, which I call the Back to the Future Theory: ? Probably in book 7, Harry realizes that he cannot ? defeat Voldemort "on his own" (Voldemort has gotten ? too strong, etc.). And so Harry is given the option of ? traveling back in time (time turner?) to defeat Tom ? Riddle - and thus stop Voldemort. (or possibly he will ? change an even in Riddle's life that will stop him from ? becoming Voldemort). This is an interesting theory, but Hermione sets canon for Time Turner use in PoA. You cannot alter history like this. If Harry were to do this, his parents would have never died, his life would not be what it had been, etc. And, there is so much emphasis in PoA on what you can and cannot do with the Time Turner. I think JKR sets that so that we understand why someone just doesn't go back with a time turner and 'fix' everything. -Snuffles "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence- Seven Pillars of Wisdom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sun Mar 2 20:09:41 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 12:09:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Thoughts on Wands (slightly long)/Ron's old wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030302200941.91744.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53028 Rib wrote: >>Instead, I think this adds support to the another- Weasley-sibling theory: Charlie had his/her old wand, and when the family could afford it Charlie got a new wand (one that more perfectly fit *him*), passing the old wand down to Ron.>> Aldrea replied: Here's an answer: Charlie got his wand second-hand, but not from an older sibling-- from a second-hand shop. When the family could afford him a new one, they got it, and Ron got the hand-me-down, second-hand wand(poor Ron![no pun intended]). Me with just a small thought: I agree that Charlie probably got his wand second-hand, and passed it on to Ron when he was able to get a new one. But it's more likely that Charlie bought it himself - he's grown up, after all, and has a job. Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Mar 2 16:45:56 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch ) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 16:45:56 -0000 Subject: Flesh-eating slug repellent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53029 redandgoldlion wrote: > Many people replied and pointed out that they always though "flesh- > eating" referred to the repellent, not the slugs. Today I was re- > reading PoA and I read this when Lupin is taking about boggarts: > "...a headless corpse or a *flesh-eating slug?..." (my emphasis) This > means, IMHO, that the slugs are indeed "flesh-eating." Me: I wonder if the slug little Kevin enlarged with his Daddy's wand *was* a flesh-eating one. However-- I think the slugs might eat the flesh of a worm - and worms manipulate the ground to be better for vegetables(including cabbage) to "eat". So the cabbage *could* be ruined because of the slugs eating things that help cabbage to grow... > ~redandgoldlion~: > On a side note, I'm a *huge* fan of Hagrid, and I don't think he > had any "sinister" reason for being in Knockturn Alley, except, > perhaps, getting some terrible new monster. ;-) Me: We do know that Hagrid was expelled and had his wand officially broken for a crime of Tom Riddle, who had framed Hagrid. Hagrid being shopping in the Knockturn Alley reflects his status as a wizard with an officially broken wand, as Hagrid was *then*, in the beginning of CoS. Harry's revealing the truth and clearing the name of an innocent Hagrid was no small matter according to Dumbledore... Maybe Hagrid would have had a little trouble buying Slug-repellent alone in Diagon Alley because of his 'broken wand' - status? That the salesperson would ignore him or scold him about a matter that Hagrid didn't do 50 years ago? -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Mar 2 17:08:19 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch ) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 17:08:19 -0000 Subject: Snape/Neville/Trevor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53030 Snapesangel: >Neville is > a constant reminder of his moral and professional failure and that > must be exteremely intolerable for someone with so much pride and to > whom power is so important. Rather than trying extra hard to be nice > to Neviile due to guilt, Snape's temper causes him to be unable to > respond in that way. "Toughening up" sensitive children is a method of > aleviating his feelings that Snape can feel better about. > > At some level Snape might blame people like Neville for allowing him, > through their weakness, to exercise his worst impulses as well. Quite - Snape can't deal with a student like Neville. Potions is an art requiring logical mind and carefulness. Neville, however, has a mind that's unable to do that. Neville's totally unable to brew a potion - particularly when he's faced with his worst fear, Snape. Snape may think he's simply not trying. Not only that. Neville's a pure Gryffindor, with a total lack of ANY Slytherin trait - any Ravenclaw - or even Hufflepuff... I think Neville's afraid of hard toil, but is courageous enough to do what it takes anyway. -- Finwitch From catlady at wicca.net Sun Mar 2 20:48:44 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) ) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 20:48:44 -0000 Subject: Old Firm In-Reply-To: <003001c2e0ef$a3034020$dd4d6551@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53031 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ffred wrote: > > But of course that's not yet established. My own little speculation > on that point is that Arabella, Albus, and Mundungus were at > Hogwarts at the same time and that they were close friends at that > time and since - hence the "old firm". IIRC, it's "old gang". It has been asserted that the few words Albus says at the first Arrival FeastL "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" will turn out to be meaningful in later books, not just a passing joke. One speculation (which I personally consider madly unlikely) is that they were the nicknames of a Moony-Wormtail-Padfoot-Prongs type student clique that Albus had been a member of. Further elaborated to suggest that the members were Albus, his brother Aberforth, Arabella, and Alastor Moody. If the fourth member had been Mundungus Fletcher, that would save them from being named "The Four A's". > > But here's a further piece of wild speculation. > which means that Mrs Figg wasn't necessarily born with than name. > What if she is Harry's grandmother or great grandmother Then Albus couldn't have told McGonagall that the loathsome Dursleys "are all the family he has left". Which also rules out all those suggestions that Albus is Harry's grand-father, great-grandfather, or great-great-grandfather. From maryblue67 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 2 21:58:18 2003 From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 13:58:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Possible FLINT : Lockhart's books In-Reply-To: <1046211998.2229.96321.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030302215818.70201.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53032 Hi everyone! I have been looking into the Mysteries and Inconsistencies FAQs and also in the lexicon, and didn't find this there (i'm not saying it's not there, i just didn't see it). So, i will post it, and let me know if it's a new filk or it has been spoted before. In CoS ( i have the British hardcover), we read in page 38 that in Harry's letter from Hogwarts his list of books includes Lockhart's "Wandering with Warewolves". But in page 78, Lockhart himself tells the class that if they had read his book "Weekend with a Warewolf" they would know what his ideal birthday gift is. Is this a FLINT? Or are they different books? Please forgive me if this has been discused often and you're all bored to death with it. Maria ===== Maryblue ---------------------------------------------------------- "Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love" - Eistein __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Sun Mar 2 21:59:41 2003 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst ) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 21:59:41 -0000 Subject: Snape/Neville/Trevor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53033 Finwitch Neville's a > pure Gryffindor, with a total lack of ANY Slytherin trait - any > Ravenclaw - or even Hufflepuff... I think Neville's afraid of hard > toil, but is courageous enough to do what it takes anyway. It's unusual that you should pin Neviile as a pure gryffindor - much discussion (I'm a member of so many snape and harry potter groups I can't remember whether it was here or not) has been dedicated to wondering why the heck the sorting hat put Neviile in Gryffindor because in eg, his fear of Snape, they see him as a wimp. I do think though, you're right to point out that a naturally fearful person doing something minor that is a big deal to them is as brave as Harry (who seems to have an almost negligent lack of scepticsim and fear at times)is when he battles the basilisk or various incarnations of Voldemort. Snapesangel ps thanks for bothering to read my rambling post. I do love it when I know someone has heard what I've said, even (if not especially) when they disagree, or have something to add as a possibility :) From pattigray at yahoo.com Sun Mar 2 13:24:53 2003 From: pattigray at yahoo.com (pattigray ) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 13:24:53 -0000 Subject: Snape/Neville/Trevor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53034 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oddment708 " wrote: > I recently read and re-read the HP books and found myself > unexpectedly obsessed with the Potterverse. As the only adult > (45+) I knew of with any interest in the series(other than the > token "Potter is pure evil relatives"),I was getting worried about my > grip on reality ("Mental, Ron sighed, shaking his head...."). On my > way to St. Mungo's I stumbled (on the hem of my robes, no doubt) into > HPfGU and have been lurking here with relief and delight for a couple > weeks..... Ah, a fellow 45+ obsessee! I've probably seen you at St. Mungo's. > Has anyone wondered if Snape's constant picking on and threatening > of Neville (and Trevor) may be more than plain meanness? Like maybe > he wants to break through a memory charm using pressure, > psychological torture or panic? Or expose Trevor as something other > than a toad? I'm not sure how you break a memory charm, but it > appears to involve pain or suffering or survival instinct as in > Neville's magical ability revealed when he was dropped as a small > child or LV's comment that the methods he used to extract info from > memory charmed B. Jorkins left her body and mind useless. Or maybe I > just want darkly conflicted, mysterious Snape to be good intentioned. > >Interesting thought. I've often wondered at Snape's picking on Neville. It would seem on the surface that Neville is too easy a target for someone with Snape's abilities. However, "darkly conflicted" Snape could be trying to break through a memory charm, and in keeping with his dark character actually enjoy inflicting a bit of pain and suffering on poor Neville. All for the greater good of course. Trevor the toad may be just an extension of the Neville we see on the surface, easily confused and not terribly competent. P.J.G. From lorischmidt1 at juno.com Sun Mar 2 15:48:59 2003 From: lorischmidt1 at juno.com (ladyofmisrule2000 ) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 15:48:59 -0000 Subject: Ron Freaking Out? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53035 I was wondering what other readers of Harry Potter make of this: When Voldemort is brought up, Ron is often described as wincing, flinching, or even firing back, "Don't say that name!" I haven't found a reference to Hermione reacting this way. I've always thought this was because Ron was brought up in the wizarding world, where he would be taught from a young age to fear "you-know-who." Hermione, on the other hand, grew up with Muggles and wouldn't have learned to fear "he-who-must-not-be-named" until later on in life. However, I am willing to field debate on this point. In any case, Ron's reaction is interesting to me considering it is Hermione who is sometimes described as panicky in the face of danger. Lori (who doesn't have any hyphenated nicknames, and who knows the best way to start a debate on this site is to ask why Ron or Hermione do this or that) From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sun Mar 2 17:07:49 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 11:07:49 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Thoughts on Wands (slightly long) References: Message-ID: <3E623A65.DFACF445@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53036 "Tom Wall " wrote: > > Replies to both Kary and > Aldrea in this post. > > Kary wrote: > I never felt that Wizards cast > off wand for new ones all the time > unless a catastrophe happened like > with Ron and they were required to > buy a new one that fit them well. > > I reply: > Well, we do know canonically that > Ron's first wand is actually > Charlie's old wand, so I'd guess > that it wasn't damaged irreparably. One could also guess that Charlie inherited his wand from some other family member before him, unable to afford a new one.. And when he was able to save up for a new one later, he gave his old one to Ron. I believe a wand is more like a violin then what people make them out to be. You can do okay learning with an old used one till you can afford to buy the one that is best for you. These are wands after all, not some 'one per lifetime bond' thing like Pernese Dragons or whatever. They can be replaced, bought, sold, traded, etc without any lasting harm to the wizard. I suspect they might even be able to be pawned by desperate wizards in Knockturn Alley who are down on their luck, much like a street musician who has to chose between food and music.. and his music is so bad that noone wants to toss money. (grin) I do believe that if a wizard finds a wand that 'feels' better then his/her old one, they are apt to buy the new one and either keep the old one around, gathering dust, give it away, sell it, trade it or whatever. Like a musical instrument, they might not be likely to throw one away, as wands are probably as expensive as musical instruments. Jazmyn From urbana at charter.net Sun Mar 2 22:31:17 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne ) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 22:31:17 -0000 Subject: Snape/Neville/Trevor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53037 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch " wrote: >Neville's totally unable to brew a > potion - particularly when he's faced with his worst fear, Snape. > Snape may think he's simply not trying. ME: This has always intrigued me. Neville is apparently totally flummoxed by Potions and can't do a damn thing right in that class, at least not according to Snape. However, he's also, apparently, a w(h)iz (pun intended) at Herbology. We read glowing comments about Herbology being his best subject. IIRC Hogwarts' herbology greenhouse contains numerous plants that students and Snape are growing *specifically* to be used *in Potions class*, as well as plants being grown for Madam Pomfrey's medicinal potions. So... if Neville is so good at Herbology, he must have a good "mind for plants" - BUT this does not translate into a "mind for potions". Why is this? Is it because there is something intrinsically more difficult about Potions than Herbology? Yes, Potions is an *art* as much as a science (so we're told). Or could it be more related to the very overt bad vibes / pressure he gets from Snape, as opposed to (*perhaps* -- I'm just guessing here) the accepting and supportive attitude of Professor Sprout?? Food for thought. >Not only that. Neville's a > pure Gryffindor, with a total lack of ANY Slytherin trait - any > Ravenclaw - or even Hufflepuff... I think Neville's afraid of hard > toil, but is courageous enough to do what it takes anyway. Actually I can see Neville in Gryffindor or Hufflepuff. Yes, he's courageous enough to "do what it takes" (as when he tried to prevent HRH from going to find the Philosopher's Stone). But he doesn't seem to me to be "afraid of hard toil" -- in fact he's willing to be *tutored* (by Hermione) to do better in the subjects he's not good at. Somehow I can't imagine Malfoy, Crabbe or Goyle (especially not the latter two) going out of their way to try to improve their grades. But of course one of Neville is worth at least 10 of Malfoy and probably 20 of Crabbe or Goyle. Anne U (who will be disappointed if Harry and Neville don't visit Neville's parents in St. Mungo's in OoP) From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 00:07:39 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 16:07:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Possible FLINT : Lockhart's books In-Reply-To: <20030302215818.70201.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030303000739.75001.qmail@web40510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53038 Maria wrote: Hi everyone! I have been looking into the Mysteries and Inconsistencies FAQs and also in the lexicon, and didn't find this there (i'm not saying it's not there, i just didn't see it). So, i will post it, and let me know if it's a new filk or it has been spoted before. In CoS ( i have the British hardcover), we read in page 38 that in Harry's letter from Hogwarts his list of books includes Lockhart's "Wandering with Warewolves". But in page 78, Lockhart himself tells the class that if they had read his book "Weekend with a Warewolf" they would know what his ideal birthday gift is. Is this a FLINT? Or are they different books? Please forgive me if this has been discused often and you're all bored to death with it. Me: I have the Scholastic paperback, and in both instances it's Wanderings with werewolves. Another Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From siskiou at earthlink.net Mon Mar 3 00:08:18 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 16:08:18 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron Freaking Out? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99170724480.20030302160818@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53039 Hi, Sunday, March 02, 2003, 7:48:59 AM, ladyofmisrule2000 wrote: > In any case, Ron's reaction is interesting to me considering it is > Hermione who is sometimes described as panicky in the face of danger. I think part of the reason might be that Hermione had never heard of Voldemort during her childhood, while Ron grew up hearing stories about his horrible deeds. Most of the adults seem to avoid saying V's name, too, so I can see why Ron reacts this way. In the Muggle world people don't usually avoid saying infamous people's names, so she may go along with not using it, but not really be shocked if someone does. And maybe something happened in Ron's family that was caused by Voldemort, and we haven't heard about it, yet. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From david_p at istop.com Mon Mar 3 00:24:50 2003 From: david_p at istop.com (David Paterson ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 00:24:50 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore going to die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53040 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ingachristsuperstar " wrote: (Snip) > We only know the names of a few of them, but it seems that > three out of the five mentioned (Dumbledore, Mundungus, and > Arabella) are quite old. Only Sirius and Lupin are young, and > they each have their problems anyway. I'm starting to wonder > how effective they are going to be in the upcoming struggle and > whether that will play a significant role in the plot. I've often wondered whether the age of that group is alluding tot he title of book 5, The Order of the Phoenix. Remember, when a phoenix gets old it dies in flames, only to be reborn. Will we see "the old crowd" suffer a similar fate? David From grace701 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 05:33:12 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (GRACE701 ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 05:33:12 -0000 Subject: Ron Freaking Out? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53041 ladyofmisrule2000 wrote: > I was wondering what other readers of Harry Potter make of this: > > When Voldemort is brought up, Ron is often described as wincing, > flinching, or even firing back, "Don't say that name!" I haven't > found a reference to Hermione reacting this way. > > I've always thought this was because Ron was brought up in the > wizarding world, where he would be taught from a young age to > fear "you-know-who." Hermione, on the other hand, grew up with > Muggles and wouldn't have learned to fear "he-who-must-not-be- named" > until later on in life. You answered your question. :-D Hermione was born in muggle world so she doesn't understand, at first, the intensity of saying his name. I am starting to believe that when Arthur says in GoF something to the likes of "Imagine seeing a dark mark over your house" that the Weasleys were personally affected by Voldemort. Perhaps so badly that they themselves don't speak of it. Therefore, Ron (along with George, Fred, Percy and Ginny) don't speak of it to Harry and Hermione leaving them clueless to Weasley's past. Greicy From grace701 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 05:39:48 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (GRACE701 ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 05:39:48 -0000 Subject: "Silly Little Girl" (was The Potters) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53042 Erica wrote and quoted: > I've been pondering the possible reasons for Voldemort's targeting > the Potters. Was he after all 'blood' Potters because they are > descendents of Gryffindor (thus not concerned about killing > Lily ... 'stand aside silly girl')? Or was he after Harry > specifically, something about Harry that was a particular threat to > Voldemort? Barb has an excellent fic where a prophecy about the DL's > demise is given involving Lily, James and Harry thus the DL goes to > Godric's Hollow to thwart it. What's the deal with this comment "silly little girl". It's been used consistantly to "describe" Hermione and to shut her up, but it has been used with Lily as well. Could it be possible that Hermione is a reflection of Lily, personality wise? Involving herself in things she ought not. In PS/SS, we know that Petunia says that Lily became involved with that "Potter" and got herself blown up. What else could Lily have possibly gotten herself involved in that she "shouldn't have"? Was she a smartypants that drove the Marauders up the wall, like Hermione usually does to Harry and Ron? Greicy From uncmark at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 05:48:14 2003 From: uncmark at yahoo.com (Mark D. ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 05:48:14 -0000 Subject: Entrance to Diagon Alley (Sorcerer's Stone Movie) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53043 I just rewatched Sorcerer's Stone for the 100th or so time and noticed something. When Hagrid taps the bricks behind the Leaky Cauldron to get into Diagon Alley, he reaches UP! Now Hagrid is somewhere between 9 and 12 feet depending who you ask, so how would a normal size wizard open the portal? My hypothesis? The dent that you tap the bricks around magically orients itself to the wizard. (I wonder whether it keeps any wizard out if they tap the wrong bricks. That wouldn't exactly be productive to the Diagon Alley Shopkeepers Association! I picture the whole alley owned behind the scenes by the goblins, who oversee the alley to maximum monetary efficiency.) From jodel at aol.com Mon Mar 3 06:04:04 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 01:04:04 EST Subject: Thoughts on Wandsands Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53044 > Fleur, unless I'm mistake, is also tall and thin, yet she has a short wand. > (bboy_mn) Fleur also does not have an *Olivander* wand. Moreover, her wand is cored with her own grandmother's hair. This is obviously a custom job, specifically made for Flur herself, nor is there any reason to assume that she was not given it until she was 11. Her grandmother may have had that wand made for her when she was much younger. I don't think that the standards Olivander is following are relevant here. I have always assumed that the magic tape which climbs all over the customer in Olivander's shop is measuring for potential growth and that the wands Olivander gives them to try reflect its findings. If this is the case, we may expect Ron to end up being very tall. (Bill and Percy are also tall, like Arthur. Molly, Charlie and the twins are all short and stocky. We still don't know which side of the family Gnny takes after.) Hagrid's wand may simply have been one of the largest that Olivander had in his stock. Half-Giants are not common, and Hagrid was already tall enough for his (very short) father to sit on his shoulder when he was 11. Going by this view, Voldemort is described as being quite tall, and his boyhood wand is the 13-inch yew/phoenix feather wand sold him (or his guardian) before he entered Hogwarts. Harry, with an 11-inch wand may not ever be as tall as his own father although he otherwise resembles him closely. Or the length of the wand may indeed have no relation to the adult height of the wizard. I may be the other person refered to in the back posts regarding wand cores and what all. I have a slightly different take on it than you do, but also agree that the whole Weasley family probably are best attuned to unicorn hair cores. (Quick, facile, dazling surface charm work, rather than the underlying, true transformation magic of phoenix feather or the deeply rooted, genuine "growth" of dragon heartstring.) As to nobody's rib's question of why Charlie would get rid of a working wand; Well, would *you* choose to go off to work with *dragons* with a wand that has seen such rough usage that the core is poking out? That one may be usable for a kid in their first years at Hogwarts, but to deal with dragons you want something that is still in peak condition. It was time for Charlie to retire the old one. Anthough the postulation that Charlie may have already been the second or third Weasley to use it is a good one, too. I think that Hagrid did get a new wand after CoS, but he is used to the pink umbrella, and keeps it around as well. Harry and Ron so far, haven't thought to ask Hagrid about his new wand. Or may just not have noticed it. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From prittylina at yahoo.com Sun Mar 2 20:22:15 2003 From: prittylina at yahoo.com (L ) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 20:22:15 -0000 Subject: Hagrid: Allowed to use Wands and Magic...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53045 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Juliet " wrote: > Huh. So, it seems Hagrid, upon being expelled, was not allowed to > do magic OR to use a wand. We know Underaged Wizards can't do > magic, so I'm guessing that might go to Unqualified Wizards, as well > (but then why doesn't Hagrid get letters about using them, maybe > it's just cause he doesn't have a school that will expel him for > it)? If you don't graduate a Magic school, maybe you're not > allowed to have a wand/do magic? Or, maybe, that just applies to > Hagrid since he was suspected of opening the Chamber of Secrets and > such. I would think that it would have only applied to Hagrid, as it seems that the correspondence course that Filch was taking (one could assume, unless he was merely perusing the Kwikspell brocure) was legal. I can only assume that a Kwikspell course would be offered to those who were not "Qualified Wizards", as, really, who else would use them? (I always feel so bad for him in those capters of CoS. It must be awfully frustrating, mustn't it, to be at a magic school yet be a squib.) Lina From sugarkadi at aol.com Sun Mar 2 21:14:39 2003 From: sugarkadi at aol.com (sugarkadi at aol.com) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 16:14:39 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Foreshadowing clues in CoS Message-ID: <7E15BDD7.0942DBAC.0290C41F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53046 (Note: I sent this on Wed. and it got lost, so sorry that it's a bit late!) Corinth said: > Maria touched on something I've been pondering for a while. According > to the rough timeline, Voldemort is about 60 now. He graduated from > Hogwarts about 50 years ago and reappeared on the scene as Evil > Overlord perhaps 20 years before the books. Which leaves a > good 30 > years unaccounted for. Me- When I first read that my mind *screamed* "Hold up!" If Voldie is 60 and graduated 50 years ago, then he graduated when he was 10? That's not right. But I've remembered reading that at various sites. So I did the math (took a while), and he would be 67 in CoS. So I can see how someone might remember that as 60, instead of rounding up to 70. Let's see, McGonagall's a "sprightly 70", IIRC. I know there was some question here as to whether she knew Tom Riddle when she was at Hogwarts. So *my* question is does anyone know what year Rowling meant when she gave us that age? How many books were out when that interview happened? Rowling also said that the teachers' love lives were off-limits (not the exact wording, I know). Which listie has made an acronym for a McGonagall/Riddle ship? Cuz I want it! ~Katey, who is on her last Sunday of being 18. Yay! From seventhsqueal at yahoo.com Sun Mar 2 23:25:48 2003 From: seventhsqueal at yahoo.com (SeventhSqueal) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 15:25:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape/Neville/Trevor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030302232548.37596.qmail@web10705.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53047 First of all, Finwitch, I loved your explanation of why Hagrid hangs out in Knockturn alley. I knocked myself on the head and said "Of course." Now on to a suggestion of why Snape is such an impatient and bullying teacher. My guess is that Snape is much too over-qualified a potions master to be teaching rudimentary potions to children. He knows his stuff but he's not teacher material. Being a good teacher is a talent. He does obviously have the aptitude for the art/skill/science of potion making. What seems second nature and obvious to people with the talent is obscure, tedious, and arcane to those who don't have the gift. He has to down-shift from whatever advanced projects he's used to working on to try and teach the most rudimentary skills that he can perform in his sleep to children. I think he's only teaching at Hogwarts because he's safe there and close to Dumbledore. ===== ~SeventhSqueal There's no earthly way of knowing / Which direction we are going / There's no knowing where we're rowing / Or which way the river's flowing / Is it raining? / Is it snowing? / Is a hurricane a-blowing? / Not a speck of light is showing / So the danger must be growing / Are the fires of hell a-glowing? / Is the grisly reaper mowing? / Yes, the danger must be growing / 'Cause the rowers keep on rowing / And they're certainly not showing / Any signs that they are slowing! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From carrie525 at mybluelight.com Mon Mar 3 00:37:45 2003 From: carrie525 at mybluelight.com (Carrie S) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 16:37:45 -0800 Subject: Harry's Big Money Gift.....(Was: Clues from GoF) Message-ID: <003a01c2e11d$1cea1800$131e5142@net> No: HPFGUIDX 53048 Hi Lea & Everyone.... you had brought up an issue I had been thinking about... You wrote: From: Lea Moggach Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Clues from GofF I also wonder if the twins will remember to buy Ron a new dress robe, as Harry requested. How will they explain to Ron where the money came from? I'm also new to this site and ECSTATIC to see other hp fans with such a serious interest. Lea ************************** I write........ Ya know, this goes along with the Jealous!Ron theory...that I don't actually agree with, but....... Remember when Fred and George gave Harry the Map. Ron's comment "why didn't they give me the Map, I am their brother?" A point well taken by Ron, in my opinion. Well....why didn't Harry give Ron the money?? Ron's his best friend, he knows he needs money for things. He knows how frustrated Ron is of hand-me-downs, etc. Ron is always (well except for a huge part of GoF) there for him, helped him get on his feet in the WW, etc. He owes Ron a lot. And he just disses him like that. You would think at least he would give the twin's the money Ludo owed them and the balance to Ron. Is our little Harry harboring angst toward Ron still?? Hmmmm... Oh well, I am sure it's a literary device for something. But still, poor Ron....... Carrie ..... who could have thought of a lot better things to do with that money! =) From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Mon Mar 3 04:35:05 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea Moggach) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 23:35:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Possible FLINT : Lockhart's books In-Reply-To: <20030303000739.75001.qmail@web40510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030303043505.43233.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53049 Maria Kirilenko wrote: Maria wrote: Hi everyone! I have been looking into the Mysteries and Inconsistencies FAQs and also in the lexicon, and didn't find this there (I'm not saying it's not there, I just didn't see it). So, I will post it, and let me know if it's a new filk or it has been spoted before. In CoS (I have the British hardcover), we read in page 38 that in Harry's letter from Hogwarts his list of books includes Lockhart's "Wandering with Warewolves". But in page 78, Lockhart himself tells the class that if they had read his book "Weekend with a Warewolf" they would know what his ideal birthday gift is. Is this a FLINT? Or are they different books? Me: I have the Scholastic paperback, and in both instances it's Wanderings with Werewolves. Another Maria ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ On a further note... I have the Bloomsbury/Raincoast editions and have just checked the appropriate pages. Both pages listed by Maria (#1) are a match with the British hardcover. Page 38 lists Wandering with Werewolves and page 78 lists Weekend With a Werewolf. Is it possible that the 2nd book - Weekend with a Werewolf was one of Lockhart's books that was not part of the mandatory reading? That might explain why no one really knew the answer to that (except Hermione of course!). Lea From lunalarea at hotmail.com Mon Mar 3 07:13:54 2003 From: lunalarea at hotmail.com (Verin Haley ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 07:13:54 -0000 Subject: Hagrid: Allowed to use Wands and Magic...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53050 So, it seems Hagrid, upon being expelled, was not allowed to do magic OR to use a wand. We know Underaged Wizards can't do magic, so I'm guessing that might go to Unqualified Wizards, as well (but then why doesn't Hagrid get letters about using them, maybe it's just cause he doesn't have a school that will expel him for it)? My understanding of this has always been there's two qualifications, underage and unqualified. People under seventeen are underage but, if they attend a school for magic, will presumably become qualified. Hagrid was expelled before he could become qualified, so is prohibited from doing magic. If you don't graduate a Magic school, maybe you're not allowed to have a wand/do magic? I've heard the OWLs and NEWTs compared to the British GCSE and A levels, respectively. Apparently, some students leave school after completing the GCSEs. I wondered if the OWLs didn't work like that. A student at Hogwarts could leave school after fifth year, having successfully completed his or her OWLs, but still be unable to legally use magic until s/he turned seventeen (underage but qualified). Or, maybe, that just applies to Hagrid since he was suspected of opening the Chamber of Secrets and such. Quite possible. Either he isn't allowed to use magic because he's unqualified (and no magical institution would admit him after he "opened" the Chamber of Secrets) or he isn't allowed to directly *because* he opened the Chamber. It could be a lingering form of probation, so to speak. That brings up the interesting question of whether he was officially cleared of opening the Chamber the first time? There is potentially evidence to do it, like Tom Riddle's diary, Harry and Ginny's testimony, and the necessity of being a parselmouth to open the Chamber. However, Fudge doesn't seem like the type to easily give Hagrid the benefit of the doubt or listen to Dumbledore about *this*, either. If he was cleared, though, could he use an adult education course (like Kwikspell, for example) to receive his magical education and become "qualified"? -Verin From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 07:35:26 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 07:35:26 -0000 Subject: "Silly Little Girl" (was The Potters) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53051 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "GRACE701 " wrote: > Erica wrote and quoted: > >(thus [Voldemort was] not concerned about killing Lily ... 'stand >aside silly girl')? Greicy wrote: > What's the deal with this comment "silly little girl". It's been > used consistantly to "describe" Hermione and to shut her up, but it > has been used with Lily as well. Could it be possible that > Hermione is a reflection of Lily, personality wise? Involving > herself in things she ought not. In PS/SS, we know that Petunia > says that Lily became involved with that "Potter" and got herself > blown up. What else could Lily have possibly gotten herself > involved in that she "shouldn't have"? Was she a smartypants that > drove the Marauders up the wall, like Hermione usually does to > Harry and Ron? Me: I love this idea! "You're the cleverest witch *of your age* I've ever met" - Lupin to Hermione, US Hardcover PoA pg. 346 Could there be a tiny clue to this Hermione/Lily theory in this quote? (This is only supporting evidence if Lupin didn't get to know Lily until they were fourth-years or older.) I wonder how this could effect the James/Lily/Snape backstory, and also how it plays into Snape's current treatment of Hermione. Does he see similarities between Lily and Hermione? Does Snape's Lily/emotional-baggage (whatever that may be - romantic, familial, James-association, etc.) help to explain him specifically targeting Hermione? Does Hermione's friendship with Harry only further feed into this emotional baggage? (e.g. Snape is forced to watch Hermione and Harry grow close just as he was forced to watch Lily and James do the same.) - Nobody's Rib (who, thanks to Greicy, now needs a pensieve to sort out her newest flood of ideas) From carrie525 at mybluelight.com Mon Mar 3 00:31:00 2003 From: carrie525 at mybluelight.com (Carrie S) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 16:31:00 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Godric's Hollow References: <4.2.0.58.20030301124238.00966290@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <001401c2e11c$2bf67060$131e5142@net> No: HPFGUIDX 53052 GulPlum wrote: There is one thing at the back of my mind at all times, though: how on earth does Dumbledore know that James was killed first and that it was *Lily's* sacrifice which saved Harry, rather than the other way around? Me: I think Dumbledore watches CSI ! =) Whoever walks in and finds the bodies comes to James first and finds Lily over or near the body of Harry as trying to protect him. If James were still alive at that point, he would have been there trying to save them. I think this is the assumption Dumbledore goes with. My question in this vein is........how do they know an AvaKedavra (sp?) is what backfired in Harry's case and killed Voldemort. Maybe V was not trying to kill Harry but do something else. Was V's body ever found? Also, how come it is Lily's sacrifice to save Harry that means anything?? Why didn't James' sacrifice work to protect Lily or Harry? Is that why he stayed and didn't apparate away, turn into a dog and run, or do the Avakedavra spell first - because he was trying to make the sacrifice himself and save the rest of his family?? Carrie From ampaes at etsii.upv.es Mon Mar 3 08:20:20 2003 From: ampaes at etsii.upv.es (ampaes at etsii.upv.es) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 09:20:20 +0100 Subject: House points and prefects Message-ID: <3E631E54.26017.1E87A2@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 53053 I know there have been discussions on the list about the points system and how the school keeps with them. I had always assumed that: It?s magic! was the most obvious explication :D, but the other day having a conversation with a friend, she mentioned that prefects use their badges to take points or award them(if they can do that, because I don?t think we?ve seen anyone doing it in canon) and she gave me this piece of canon to support her reading: CoS Page 119 UK Edition '*You* don?t care about Ginny,' said Ron, whose ears where reddening now. '*You?re* just worried I?m going to mess up your chances of being Head Boy.' 'Five points from Gryffindor!' Percy said tersely, FINGERING HIS PREFECT BADGE. 'And I hope it teaches you a lesson! No more *detective work*, or I?ll write to Mum!' She believes (and I do too now) that Percy touched his prefect badge to deduct the five points he had taken from Gryffindor to the total points of the House. AFAICR we haven?t seen any other prefect taking points in canon, so this is not a very strong piece of evidence, but there isn?t anything that disproves the theory either. Opinions? And if this has been brought up before I apologize. Alsh From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 3 12:22:27 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 12:22:27 -0000 Subject: Harry's Big Money Gift.....(Was: Clues from GoF) In-Reply-To: <003a01c2e11d$1cea1800$131e5142@net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53054 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carrie S" wrote: > Carrie wrote: > > Ya know, this goes along with the Jealous!Ron theory...that I > don't actually agree with, but....... > > Remember when Fred and George gave Harry the Map. Ron's > comment "why didn't they give me the Map, I am their brother?" A > point well taken by Ron, in my opinion. > > Well....why didn't Harry give Ron the money?? Ron's his best > friend, he knows he needs money for things. He knows how > frustrated Ron is of hand-me-downs, etc. Ron is always (well > except for a huge part of GoF) there for him, helped him get on > his feet in the WW, etc. He owes Ron a lot. And he just disses him > like that. You would think at least he would give the twin's the > money Ludo owed them and the balance to Ron. Is our little Harry > harboring angst toward Ron still?? Hmmmm... > Oh well, I am sure it's a literary device for something. But > still, poor Ron....... > > Carrie ..... who could have thought of a lot better things to do > with that money! =) I think Harry is distinguishing between 'want' and 'need'. He's done this before; in PoA he realises that much as he 'wants' the fantastic racing broom in the window, he doesn't 'need' it. He'd never lost a match on his current broom. The need to use the money his parents left him to support himself through the five remaining years of school was more important. Similarly, Ron 'wants' money. He doesn't need it. He is fed, he is clothed, he has toys, and books, and pocket money. It may be embarrassing to go to the ball in a second hand dress suit, but embarrassing is all it is. The twins, on the other hand, have decided what they want in life. They want to open up a joke shop. Their primary problem is that they need capital to do this. Capital for renting premises and buying ingredients. Since their parents don't *have* a spare thousand galleons, how are they going to get it? Molly has just stymied their first, perfectly legitimate and sensible plan for getting money together. She destroyed half the stock that they were planning to sell at Hogwarts. If they make jokes at home, they risk Molly destroying them. Route one: 'start small and save the profits until you can expand' is effectively shut. Route two: 'speculate with the little money they have got' has also been shut off because Bagman was dishonest. Route three: 'borrow money' is also a little dodgy. Defaulting on a loan from Goblins looks like the kind of mistake which leads to intimate knowledge of river bottoms. And the joke shop *is* speculative; businesses do fail. So the Twins are facing a future of arguments about their choice of career and of a long period scrabbling around looking for money. Harry meanwhile, *has* money. One thousand Galleons that he obtained by fraud. It wasn't his fraud (it was Crouch Jr's), but still, he feels that he didn't earn it. With Cedric's death attached to it he doesn't feel comfortable keeping it. If he gives it to Ron, all Ron will do is spend it on sweets, toys and the sort of stuff a 14 year old would spend it on. If he gives it to the Twins, they'll use it to kick start their career .... So who should he give it to? His best friend who just 'wants' it? Or to two people he knows who need the money and will use it for their futures? Especially since, as Harry points out, the WW is probably going to 'need' a few good laughs in its near future .... Pip From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Mon Mar 3 13:03:16 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 13:03:16 -0000 Subject: Harry's Big Money Gift.....(Was: Clues from GoF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53055 - > Carrie wrote: > > > > Ya know, this goes along with the Jealous!Ron theory...that I > > don't actually agree with, but....... > > > > Remember when Fred and George gave Harry the Map. Ron's > > comment "why didn't they give me the Map, I am their brother?" A > > point well taken by Ron, in my opinion. > > > > Well....why didn't Harry give Ron the money?? Ron's his best > > friend, he knows he needs money for things. He knows how > > frustrated Ron is of hand-me-downs, etc. Ron is always (well > > except for a huge part of GoF) there for him, helped him get on > > his feet in the WW, etc. He owes Ron a lot. And he just disses him > > like that. You would think at least he would give the twin's the > > money Ludo owed them and the balance to Ron. Is our little Harry > > harboring angst toward Ron still?? Hmmmm... > > > Oh well, I am sure it's a literary device for something. But > > still, poor Ron....... > > > > Carrie ..... who could have thought of a lot better things to do > > with that money! =) > Pip: > I think Harry is distinguishing between 'want' and 'need'. He's done > this before; in PoA he realises that much as he 'wants' the > fantastic racing broom in the window, he doesn't 'need' it. He'd > never lost a match on his current broom. The need to use the money > his parents left him to support himself through the five remaining > years of school was more important. > > Similarly, Ron 'wants' money. He doesn't need it. He is fed, he is > clothed, he has toys, and books, and pocket money. It may be > embarrassing to go to the ball in a second hand dress suit, but > embarrassing is all it is. > > The twins, on the other hand, have decided what they want in life. > They want to open up a joke shop. Their primary problem is that they > need capital to do this. Capital for renting premises and buying > ingredients. Since their parents don't *have* a spare thousand > galleons, how are they going to get it? > > Molly has just stymied their first, perfectly legitimate and > sensible plan for getting money together. She destroyed half the > stock that they were planning to sell at Hogwarts. If they make > jokes at home, they risk Molly destroying them. Route one: 'start > small and save the profits until you can expand' is effectively shut. > > Route two: 'speculate with the little money they have got' has also > been shut off because Bagman was dishonest. > > Route three: 'borrow money' is also a little dodgy. Defaulting on a > loan from Goblins looks like the kind of mistake which leads to > intimate knowledge of river bottoms. And the joke shop *is* > speculative; businesses do fail. > > So the Twins are facing a future of arguments about their choice of > career and of a long period scrabbling around looking for money. > > Harry meanwhile, *has* money. One thousand Galleons that he obtained > by fraud. It wasn't his fraud (it was Crouch Jr's), but still, he > feels that he didn't earn it. With Cedric's death attached to it he > doesn't feel comfortable keeping it. If he gives it to Ron, all Ron > will do is spend it on sweets, toys and the sort of stuff a 14 year > old would spend it on. If he gives it to the Twins, they'll use it > to kick start their career .... > > So who should he give it to? His best friend who just 'wants' it? Or > to two people he knows who need the money and will use it for their > futures? Especially since, as Harry points out, the WW is probably > going to 'need' a few good laughs in its near future .... > Me: I don't think that Harry analysed want vs need when he 'forced' the money onto the twins. He's been trying to get rid of it, to give it to anyone since he 'won' it (didn't he offer it to the Diggory's too?). Nobody wanted to take it, so he's stuck with it on the train ride home where he comes to find out the twins' hard luck story and foists the money onto them. They are hesitant to take it until Harry *insists*. I don't think that Harry even entertained the thought of giving it to Ron, not because he thought that Ron would blow it all on himslef on sweets and 'toys' (I happen to think that if Ron came into some money he'd be sharing it with his whole family not keeping it for himself) but because he knows that Ron *hates* to be beholding to him. Everytime Harry tries to give Ron a gift out of the ordinary (i.e. outside Christmas, birthdays) it seems to irritate the bejeezus out of Ron. Isn't that what the 'Buy Ron a new dress robe but don't tell him they're from me' is all about? What would Ron do if he found out that his new dress robes *were* from Harry? Erica From petra.delisser at postikaista.net Mon Mar 3 14:28:45 2003 From: petra.delisser at postikaista.net (brinforest ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 14:28:45 -0000 Subject: Snape's Secret In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53056 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "seventhsqueal " wrote: > I had a quick look through a few JKR interviews to try and find the > original quote where she gives the Perseus Evans anagram but couldn't > find it. I can't remember if I've seen the actual interview or if I've > only read hearsay reports of the anagram. But for the purposes of this > response I'll make the assumption that you have seen the actual > transcript and work with you on applying it to the Voldemort raised > Snape Theory. > Just wanted to clarify that this didn't come from a JKR interview, it's just something people have noticed on their own. Even so, as I said it sounds way too good to be just a coincidence. Perseus - starts with P, has seven letters like Petunia.. could be a deliberate red herring, perhaps, but personally I'll believe it means something until proven otherwise! As for all my ponderings of what *happened*, they're probably just as likely as the ones I cooked up before - with Sirius as Snape's brother. However, my "favourite theory of the day" is that Snape was in love with Neville's mum *Florence* (for Florence as Neville's mum, check out post 45336 by hickengruendler), and therefore is the one who Bertha Jorkins saw and got hexed by... so naturally that would make Snape eternally jealous of Frank Longbottom who got the girl, and hate Neville, who shouldn't even exist - that should have been *his* son - whoa, hold on - maybe it is!! But does he know? Does Dumbledore know? Was this all a part of Dumbledore's master plan? Tune in tomorrow to find out! :) Brin (who is now surprised at her ability to generate icky soapy plot twists out of other people's perfectly sensible theories) From maryblue67 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 14:29:51 2003 From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 06:29:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: House points and prefects In-Reply-To: <1046692925.1629.27143.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030303142951.12227.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53057 Alsh asked: She believes (and I do too now) that Percy touched his prefect badge to deduct the five points he had taken from Gryffindor to the total points of the House. AFAICR we havent seen any other prefect taking points in canon, so this is not a very strong piece of evidence, but there isnt anything that disproves the theory either. Opinions? And if this has been brought up before I apologize. Me: i think the whole point counting is done by magic. In this particular instance, the fact that Percy is fidgeting with his badge could mean that he is nervous or unhappy about having to be strict and law abiding with his family, but he is a prefect and he has to act as one; but it still is uncomfortable or difficult to do so, so he touches his badge for reassurance or something like that. At least that is what i understand from that particular scene. Maria (who is from Valencia, Spain, and wonders if your email address, ending in upv.es, corresponds to Universidad Politecnica de Valencia or Universidad del Pais Vasco :) ) ===== Maryblue ---------------------------------------------------------- "Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love" - Eistein __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From Meliss9900 at aol.com Mon Mar 3 14:54:18 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 09:54:18 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Big Money Gift.....(Was: Clues from GoF) Message-ID: <1d7.434f362.2b94c69a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53058 In a message dated 3/3/2003 4:55:13 AM Central Standard Time, carrie525 at mybluelight.com writes: > Well....why didn't Harry give Ron the money?? Ron's his best friend, he > knows he needs money for things. He knows how frustrated Ron is of > hand-me-downs, etc. Ron is always (well except for a huge part of GoF) > there > for him, helped him get on his feet in the WW, etc. He owes Ron a lot. And > he just disses him like that. You would think at least he would give the > twin's the money Ludo owed them and the balance to Ron. Is our little Harry > harboring angst toward Ron still?? Hmmmm... > Ummm I think that any attempt by Harry to give that sack of Galleons to Ron, especially for the reasons you mention above, would have made The Rift look like a walk in the park. (plus we don't know exactly how much Ludo owed the Twins [do we?]. .it might have been 1000 Galleons) He simply knew that the Twins would be more likely to accept it and Ron would have been extremely insulted/irate if he had offered it to him. Remember the omniocular incident.(paraphrased) "Must be nice to not even notice when a pocketful of galleons has gone missing." Ron's touchy about that sort of thing. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From artsylynda at aol.com Mon Mar 3 15:11:47 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 10:11:47 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's lack of fear (was: Snape/Neville/Trevor) Message-ID: <5f.35e2ab8e.2b94cab3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53059 Snapesangel: > you're right to point out that a naturally fearful > person doing something minor that is a big deal to them is as brave as > Harry (who seems to have an almost negligent lack of scepticsim and > fear at times)is when he battles the basilisk or various incarnations > of Voldemort. > I don't think Harry has a "negligent lack of scepticism and fear" -- he's scared every time it's appropriate to be scared, and I think he's skeptical of lots of things. But that little voice in the back of his head that protects him from the Imperius Curse is only one of the weapons in Harry's rather impressive arsenal that helps him keep his head when under pressure. (As Ron said during the Devil's Snare incident in SS [when he told Hermione to make a fire], at least Harry keeps his head under stress [paraphrasing here]). Harry has a cool resolve that surfaces under pressure. When the worst happens, nearly every time, he's the only one there in a position to do something, even if he doesn't know what to do (such as in CoS when he cries for help and Fawkes appears bringing him the Sorting Hat). Most folks faced with a basilisk and having only a Sorting Hat as a "weapon" would lose heart altogether, but Harry keeps fighting with whatever he can find at hand, even a *hat.* (Fortunately he pulled the sword out of it instead of a rabbit! LOL!) He doesn't know how to use a sword, but gives it his best anyway. That's raw courage and heart. He does have some skepticism, which shows when he correctly analyzes people's motives (such as Fudge in GoF when Harry says "You've been reading Rita Skeeter" -- he cut through Fudge's rhetoric and posturing and pinpointed the problem *apparently* before any of the adults figured it out.) He knows fear -- a wise person always recognizes fear. He recognizes fear and resolutely goes forward because turning back is worse than what he faces ahead of him. Turning back means lots of people will die, or Voldemort will gain power, or something else bad will happen (like losing a Quidditch match -- he knows fear before each match too, but it's more stage fright nerves than the kind of fear he faces other places, despite the fact he's often in mortal danger during Quidditch games). Harry is very unselfish -- in GoF, he could've rescued only Ron and won that challenge, but he couldn't leave the others behind to drown. So he risked his life and Ron's, as well, to try to save the others. Fear? Just another obstacle in Harry Potter's day. He'll do what he has to do despite the fear and danger -- that's the hero's way. ;-> And yes, I am a huge Harry Potter fan!! ;-> Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Mon Mar 3 15:16:48 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 09:16:48 -0600 Subject: Chapter 13 Message-ID: <009901c2e197$e99088b0$079dcdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 53060 Mugglenet has an interesting list of Oddities/Coincidences, and I found this one particularly interesting: In Chapter 13 of every book, the seemingly-innocent culprit makes an appearance. a.. Book 1: Snape threatens Quirrel, who we think is the good guy for resisting Snape. b.. Book 2: We learn about T.M. Riddle, who we think is a good guy for catching Hagrid and stopping the attacks. c.. Book 3: Wormtail fakes his death for the second time, and we think he's...er...a good rat. Though this one actually begins at the end of Chapter 12, but continues into Chapter 13, close enough. a.. Book 4: Moody turns Malfoy into a ferret and we think he's just a cool guy. I, for one, will be watching Chapter 13 of OotP very closely! Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 12:27:02 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 12:27:02 -0000 Subject: Harry's Big Money Gift.....(Was: Clues from GoF) In-Reply-To: <003a01c2e11d$1cea1800$131e5142@net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53061 --- "Carrie S" wrote: > > Remember when Fred and George gave Harry the Map. Ron's comment "why didn't > they give me the Map, I am their brother?" A point well taken by Ron, in my > opinion. ME: Except that the twins did to Harry in order to give him means to get to Hogsmeade (which Ron already had). Harry was in greater need. And well, if the twins knew that Harry's father was one of the Makers, they may have seen it fit to give Harry the map (as inheritance). Carrie: > Well....why didn't Harry give Ron the money?? Ron's his best friend, he > knows he needs money for things. He knows how frustrated Ron is of > hand-me-downs, etc. Ron is always (well except for a huge part of GoF) there > for him, helped him get on his feet in the WW, etc. He owes Ron a lot. ME: Because Ron wouldn't take it. Harry bought Onmioculars for both Hermione and Ron. Ron took out the Lepricorn gold to pay back the 10 galleons, and then gets angry because Harry didn't tell him it had vanished... I never noticed Hermione to do that about hers! - but Ron gets *insulted* if Harry buys him something. By giving the money to the twins with: "Buy Ron some new dress-robes and say it's from you" Harry gives the twins their joke-shop AND new dress robes to Ron without insulting Ron's pride. Ron already feels owing 10 Galleons to Harry, he'd NOT want owing 1010 galleons (while Harry doesn't mind the least - he'd give Ron/Weasleys half of his vault, but knows all too well that they'd never take it). If Ron asks where they got it, they'd complain over being baselessly accused of stealing by their own brother rather than tell. At any rate, the 1000 galleons was an investment in laughter. "I have a feeling that we'll need laughter". Well, laughter is what destroys a boggart. - also, laughter is what destroys *fear*. As Tom Riddle told Harry in CoS of his dream: That wizards fear to speak his name. Perhaps WWW will fight that by making the name Voldemort ridiculous. That would cut to Voldemort's ability to take over by terrorizing the wizards... -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 12:48:34 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 12:48:34 -0000 Subject: Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: <001401c2e11c$2bf67060$131e5142@net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53062 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carrie S" wrote: > My question in this vein is........how do they know an AvaKedavra (sp?) is what backfired in Harry's case and killed Voldemort. Maybe V was not trying to kill Harry but do something else. Was V's body ever found? > Also, how come it is Lily's sacrifice to save Harry that means anything?? Why didn't James' sacrifice work to protect Lily or Harry? Is that why he stayed and didn't apparate away, turn into a dog and run, or do the Avakedavra spell first - because he was trying to make the sacrifice himself and save the rest of his family?? Harry's own *memory* tells that to Harry. He always remembered the *green light*, then Voldemort's laughter when Hagrid tells him it was no car-accident but murder. They know not what happened - only that Voldemort disappeared after trying to attack Harry. As to why V didn't die: He didn't have enough human left in him to die! Dumbledore knows about Lily's sacrifice perhaps because Quirrelmort couldn't touch Harry. With Dementors, we get more information. Lily said: "Not Harry! Not Harry! Take me instead!" before that, James said: "Take Harry to safety. I'll hold him back". Also James delegated Harry's safe-keeping to Lily, and fought Voldemort... Lily, on the other hand, shielded Harry, making a sacrifice - and only that. As to why it was Avada Kedavra: Harry knew it after seeing it done on a spider, he remembers, realises what it was. I do believe Harry's a Seer- or could be, if he set his mind to it. He has seen Buckbeak in Crystal Ball, his dreams have been about past or present... -- Finwitch From jeanneblade at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 14:08:38 2003 From: jeanneblade at yahoo.com (Jeanne Blade) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 06:08:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] House points and prefects In-Reply-To: <3E631E54.26017.1E87A2@localhost> Message-ID: <20030303140838.98845.qmail@web14711.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53063 ampaes at etsii.upv.es wrote: conversation with a friend, she mentioned that prefects use their badges to take points or award them(CoS Page 119 UK Edition 'Five points from Gryffindor!' Percy said tersely, FINGERING HIS PREFECT BADGE. ME: I had always thought that Percy had fingered his badge to remind Ron (and perhaps himself) that Percy has authority over Ron and over other students. But if the badges are indeed how Prefects take/add points, wouldn't the teachers also have a similar device? There is no canon evidence that shows the teachers have such things. If the Prefects do use them to take/add points, wouldn't they use them to their House's advantage? -Jeanne Blade, who while listening to the song "Beat It" was struck with a very amusing image of Voldie, Harry, the Death Eaters, and the echoes (Lily and James, Cedric, etc.) dancing. Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.2974023.4304644.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.2974023.4304644.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250; --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From artsylynda at aol.com Mon Mar 3 15:29:06 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 10:29:06 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's big money gift Message-ID: <1a8.10f1ce8f.2b94cec2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53064 Carrie S: > ....why didn't Harry give Ron the money?? It seemed natural to me for Harry to give the money to the twins, after he'd had time to think about it (after he stopped trying to give it to the Diggory family and to the folks in his hospital room). Ron's jealous of Harry in certain ways, and embarrassed about being poor. If Harry gave the money to Ron, Ron would be humiliated that Harry was *acknowledging* Ron's poverty (Harry buying candy for Ron isn't the same kind of embarrassment as *giving* Ron 1000 Galleons -- Harry shares the candy with Ron -- he gives Ron the Omnioculars as a present and says it's for the next three Christmases to keep Ron from being embarrassed). Ron hates the idea of anyone acknowledging his poverty, and Harry is wise enough to understand that -- that's why he doesn't give the Weasleys money at other points in the books. Giving the money to the twins, with the caveat that they must buy Ron new dress robes, means the money will be put to good use (to a boy Harry's age and with his experience, trying to ensure more laughter in the world would be a very important thing) and Ron won't be forever embarrassed that Harry thought of him as so poor that he *had* to give him that money. The twins see it as an investment as much as a gift, I think, and I believe Harry does too. I think he made the right choice. JMHO. Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gingerssnap1966 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 14:39:05 2003 From: gingerssnap1966 at yahoo.com (gingerssnap1966 ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 14:39:05 -0000 Subject: Hagrid: Allowed to use Wands and Magic...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53065 > > So, it seems Hagrid, upon being expelled, was not allowed to do magic > OR to use a wand. We know Underaged Wizards can't do magic, so I'm > guessing that might go to Unqualified Wizards, as well (snip) > > Hagrid was expelled before he could become qualified, so is prohibited > from doing magic. > (snip) > > That brings up the interesting question of whether he was officially > cleared of opening the Chamber the first time? There is potentially > evidence to do it, like Tom Riddle's diary, Harry and Ginny's > testimony, and the necessity of being a parselmouth to open the > Chamber. However, Fudge doesn't seem like the type to easily give > Hagrid the benefit of the doubt or listen to Dumbledore about *this*, > either. > > If he was cleared, though, could he use an adult education course > (like Kwikspell, for example) to receive his magical education and > become "qualified"? > > -Verin Me: Good question, Verin. Was Hagrid "officially cleared"? The teaching job Dumbledore gave him was wonderfully suited to his area of expertise and interest, but doesn't require wand use. To add another question to the mix: Was the breaking of his wand a school punishment or an "official" (as in MoM) punishment? Even if the MoM thought he was guilty, they may have thought he was too young to be sent to Azkaban. He let Aragog escape before anyone saw him. (CoS ch. 13) Perhaps that is why in PoA (ch. 11)he was afraid to let Buckbeak escape. He was "scared of breaking the law" and "didn't want to go back to Azkaban", having been there in CoS as a MoM "precaution" when the chamber reopened. If it was a school punishment, then I can see Dumbledore allowing him to pick up his education where he left off, perhaps on summer breaks with the help of the teachers. With a brand new wand, of course. Ginger, who shudders to think of Snape teaching Hagrid potions From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 3 15:37:56 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 15:37:56 -0000 Subject: Harry's Big Money Gift.....(Was: Clues from GoF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53066 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Erica " wrote: > Me: > > I don't think that Harry analysed want vs need when he 'forced' > the money onto the twins. He's been trying to get rid of it, to > give it to anyone since he 'won' it (didn't he offer it to the > Diggory's too?). 'Anyone' is not the case. In canon Harry only offers the money to Cedric Diggory's parents before he gives it to the twins. I would point out that Cedric's parents are *morally* the people the money should have gone to. Had Fudge believed Harry's story, he would have known that Cedric was the real winner of the Triwizard Tournament and that his prize money should have gone to his parents, who would be his heirs in law. Even with Fudge *not* believing Harry's story, Cedric still touched the Triwizard cup at the same time as Harry; Harry should *never* have been given the full thousand. The prize should have been split. I doubt the Diggory's would ever have wanted the money, but they should at least have been asked by Fudge if they would like it used for something in Cedric's memory. But Fudge doesn't want to remember Cedric. He wants the whole affair swept under the carpet. Harry offers it to Cedric's parents with the words 'It should've been Cedric's, he got there first ...' [GoF, UK paperback,Ch. 37 p.621]. So, in canon, the only people he's tried to give the money away to are the people who have a moral claim to it, *or* the people who he's just found out were cheated out of their savings. > Nobody wanted to take it, so he's stuck with it on the train > ride home where he comes to find out the twins' hard luck story > and foists the money onto them. They are hesitant to take it > until Harry *insists*. Yup. I'd be hesitant if a fourteen year old offered me a thousand quid as a gift. One thousand galleons is probably more like, say, fifteen thousand quid? 20,000 dollars? Gred and Forge, for all their joking around and having little bets, show their basic honesty by *not* wanting to take Harry's money. Harry is also quite specific about what he wants the money to be used for: 'You take it and get inventing. It's for the joke-shop.' [GoF, UK paperback,Ch. 37 p.635]. He asks them to buy Ron new dress robes as a 'favour'. Would Cedric have liked the way Harry used his prize money? Probably. He was a Hufflepuff who values hard work. He would have liked the fact that Harry gives the money specifically to help start the twins in their career. A career, incidentally, that Harry knows the Twins have been working hard on. He valued fair play; he would have liked the fact that Harry uses it to help two boys who have been *cheated* out of their savings. > I don't think that Harry even entertained > the thought of giving it to Ron, not because he thought that Ron > would blow it all on himslef on sweets and 'toys' (I happen to > think that if Ron came into some money he'd be sharing it with his > whole family not keeping it for himself) but because he knows > that Ron *hates* to be beholding to him. Everytime Harry tries to > give Ron a gift out of the ordinary (i.e. outside Christmas, > birthdays) it seems to irritate the bejeezus out of Ron. Isn't > that what the 'Buy Ron a new dress robe but don't tell him they're > from me' is all about? What would Ron do if he found out that his > new dress robes *were* from Harry? > Erica Which goes back to Jealous!Ron, which is where this whole thing started. Ron can't accept generous gifts from a close friend who can easily afford them. Further, Ron doesn't seem to value his family's ability to give non-monetary gifts. Mr Weasley has wangled two extra tickets for the QWC so Ron's *two* closest friends can come. Both of Ron's good friends also get invited to stay at The Burrow for two weeks. So Harry had just received the gift of the QWC trip from the Weasley's. Why shouldn't he buy a 'thank you' present for Ron? But Ron can't see it that way. Ron only wants Harry to buy him the sort of things that Ron can afford. Ron is like the friend in a pub who won't let you buy him a drink because *he* can't afford to buy you one. This can really put a damper on a good evening [grin]. Especially when your friend can't seem to understand that you *know* he'd buy his round if he had the money. Pip From morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 15:34:18 2003 From: morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com (Morgan D.) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 07:34:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Polyjuice!Arabela and other Polydoubts In-Reply-To: <1046670499.2573.26928.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030303153418.28704.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53067 Im gonna risk bringing up this old topic again, in hopes that I can add up a point or two that hasnt been exhaustedly discussed yet. (Gosh, dont you all wish Yahoo archive search system were more friendly?) Besides, Im less interested in the possibility itself than in the need for this theory altogether. In PS/CS ch 2, Harry describes Mrs Figg as a mad old lady who lived two streets away, and he says her whole house smelled of cabbage. In CoS ch 12, Harry drinks Polyjuice Potion and thinks it tasted like overcooked cabbage. That was enough to convince many readers that Arabella isnt an old lady at all. But Polyjuice Potion isnt a tool for simple shape-shifting. It gives the drinker the appearance of someone else. So if Arabella isnt the old lady described by Harry, there IS some old lady that looks like that somewhere. Where is she? In GoF, Barty Jr has to keep Moody around and alive because, according to Dumbledore (ch 35), the impostor needed, of course, to keep the real Moody close by, so that he could continue making the Potion. Under Veritaserum, Barty Jr adds, I kept him alive, under the Imperius curse. I wanted to be able to question him. To find out about his past, learn his habits, so that I could fool even Dumbledore. I also needed his hair to make the Polyjuice Potion. (also ch 35) But isnt Arabella one of the good guys? She wouldnt keep an old woman in a trunk for 14 years, would she? Honestly, I dont see why Barty Jr has to keep Moody around and alive. For interrogation, perhaps -- but he kept Moody in that trunk for about nine months! Wasnt that time enough for him to get all the info he needed? Considering Barty Jr apparently managed to impersonate Moody without attracting any suspicions even in the very beginning, wouldnt keeping Moody alive imply on a very unnecessary risk? (Small side notes: 1. I personally find very suspicious that Dumbledore, whos known Moody for decades, bought so easily the farce executed by someone who certainly didnt know Moody as well as he did. Should I mention I have a thing for MAGIC DISHWASHERs? 2. I personally find puzzling that Moody never managed to fight the Imperius curse and free himself, since weve seen younger, less experienced wizards -- Harry and Barty Jr -- doing it. How long does the effect of a Stun spell last anyway?) Anyway, interrogation is the only reason I can think of for Barty Jr to keep Moody alive. Moodys hair is used for the potion, but hair is a dead tissue. It shouldnt lose its properties even if cut from the subject years before the making of the potion. But, well, does that mean Dumbledore is wrong? Would I dare to correct the Headmaster? Yes, he apparently commits some judgement errors from time to time (does he?), but should I dispute his knowledge of potions? So lets say magic has quirks that are unknown to Muggle chemistry and Arabella does need to keep that old lady around to get her hairs or nails. Does that mean there are two women living in that house? Or the old lady lives someplace else and Arabella has to go visit her from time to time? According to Hermione (CoS ch 10), the Polyjuice Potion takes about a month to be brewed (at least the lacewings have got to be stewed for twenty-one days). Arabella must have a cauldron of potion ready all the time, because -- unless shes an extraordinary Seer -- she cant predict a month in advance when Harry will come to visit her. So either Arabella has spent good part of the last 14 years (more? less?) drinking the potion every hour, or she keeps brewing the potion on and on but only drinks it when Harry shows up -- which means that the original old lady is there in the house too, and Arabella only takes her place every now and then. But there is another problem here. According to Veritaserum!Barty Jr (GoF ch 35), Wormtail and I did it. We had prepared the Polyjuice Potion beforehand. But Voldemort and Wormtail only rescued Barty after the World Cup Final, which took place either one or two weeks before the September 1st (the references to that, in chapters 3 and 10 of GoF, seem contradictory). Theres not enough time for them to brew the potion before the school term. I dont know what to make of this. Even if Wormtail had started brewing the potion weeks before, wouldnt Barty Jr, under Snapes strongest Veritaserum, considering the detailed report of events he volunteers (without being specifically prompted by Dumbledore, I mean), said something like, They had everything planned. Wormtail had already started brewing the Polyjuice Potion, and I helped him finish it? Back to Arabella. Lets assume for a moment that the potion doesnt need a month to be brewed somehow. Lets also assume that both Dumbledore and Barty Jr are wrong and the Polyjuice Potion doesnt require fresh material. Arabella has had the hair/nail/whatever tissue samples she needs for ages. Shes the only woman in that house, drinking the potion every hour for over a decade, stealing her looks from some old aunt of hers. Question: why? I could think of 3 possibilities: 1. The Dursleys would be able to recognise Arabella, and she doesnt want that. --> How they met? No idea. I do wonder if a simple disguise wouldnt be easier though. Back to my first point, Polyjuice Potion gives the drinker the looks of another existing person. Why would Arabella want to look like that particular old lady? The Dursleys dont seem particularly fond of her. If not being recognised is the whole point, she could simply dye her hair, gain a few pounds, use lots of make-up -- not to mention use some less troublesome magic spells to alter her looks. 2. There are Death Eaters watching Harrys neighbourhood, and Arabella doesnt want them to recognise her. --> Again, arent there easier disguise spells she could use instead of a dead-give-away cabbage-smelling potion you have to keep drinking all the time? 3. Arabella Figg IS an old lady -- secretly a witch -- but the woman Harry knows is NOT Arabella Figg. Shes actually a Death Eater that took the place of the witch Dumbledore planted there to protect Harry (a disguise under a disguise under a disguise). In that case, the real Arabella could be very well locked in some trunk inside the house. --> The problem with this possibility? Its farfetched. Unless you can think of a reason why a DeathEater!Polyjuice!Arabella wouldnt have seized the occasion of Harrys visits and killed him already. However, what bothers me the most about the whole Polyjuice!Arabella theory is, why to create it? Of course, we make up wild theories because thats what we do, duh! ^__^ We just cant read cabbage twice and not to wonder if theres a connection. Who cares if Harry doesnt say Moaning Myrtles bathroom smelled of cabbage for a month? Who cares if Harry doesnt say that Moodys office or Fake!Moody himself smelled like cabbage? Ive found lots of Polyjuice!Arabella in fanfiction. The idea seems to be: Harry must have a godmother lying around somewhere, and what better candidate than Mrs Figg? Okay, fine, lets say Mrs Figg is Harrys godmother. That doesnt say why shed have any need of Polyjuice Potion. The Dursleys dont seem to recognise Sirius Black, neither by name nor looks, as Harrys godfather. Why would they know about his godmother? And if shes hiding from other wizards who might recognise her, wouldnt have been a cleverer idea to change her name too? And in fanfiction, Polyjuice!Arabella is always a beautiful woman in her thirties. But, A) a godmother isnt necessarily the same age as the childs parents; B) a godmother isnt necessarily the godfathers girlfriend or wife; and C) Ive never read a Polyjuice!Arabella fic that didnt sound suspiciously Mary Sueish. Why cant we leave Arabella as an old woman? Would that make her uncool, is that the problem? Is it a need to find Sirius some young, beautiful love interest? Is it out of aversion for old people? Dumbledore lists Arabella as part of the old crowd. Along with Remus (young) and Fletcher (old). No clues from there. All in all, wouldnt be more plausible to assume JKR simply hates cabbage and thinks of it whenever she must describe a sickening smell or taste? (Now THATs a feeling I can relate to...) Hoping no one kills me, Morgan D. Hogwarts Letters - http://www.hogwartsletters.hpg.com.br __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From rvotaw at i-55.com Mon Mar 3 15:56:37 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 09:56:37 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups]Crystal ball (was Re: Godric's Hollow) References: Message-ID: <001801c2e19d$79957bf0$8d9fcdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 53068 Finwitch wrote: > I do believe Harry's a Seer- or could be, if he set his mind to it. > He has seen Buckbeak in Crystal Ball, his dreams have been about past > or present... It's not that I don't think Harry may be a Seer, but I don't think he saw Buckbeak in the crystal ball. From PoA Chapter 16: Harry bent over the crystal ball and stared, stared as hard as he could, willing it to show him something other than swirling white fog, but nothing happened. He thought of what Ron had just said, and decided to pretend. "Er--" said Harry, "a dark shape . . . um . . ." Harry cast his mind around and it landed on Buckbeak. I think this basically tells us that Buckbeak was the first thing Harry thought of, he clearly lets us know that he saw nothing but swirling white fog in the crystal ball. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mbarclay at lee.edu Mon Mar 3 15:23:16 2003 From: mbarclay at lee.edu (Barclay, Maggie) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 09:23:16 -0600 Subject: book 7: back to the future theory Message-ID: <8F497E280916D4119B0100A0C9EA53E7021D59DC@leonardo.lee.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 53069 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nobodysrib " > wrote: > > > My idea, which I call the Back to the Future Theory: Probably > > in book 7, Harry realizes that he cannot defeat Voldemort "on his > > own"(Voldemort has gotten too strong, etc.). And so Harry is given > > the option of traveling back in time (time turner?) to defeat Tom > > Riddle - and thus stop Voldemort. (or possibly he will change an > > even in Riddle's life that will stop him from becoming Voldemort). > > > > ...heavy edit... > > > > Also, this theory is my baby (sometimes keeps me happy late at > > night when I'm imagining all the horrible events that are yet to come > > in the next three books) and I wanted to share the warm fuzzies. > > > > -nobody's rib, who is certain that this theory can be ripped > > apart and proved false The only problem I have with this theory is that we have absolutely no evidence that traveling forward through time is possible. Harry and Hermione have to wait until the time when they first went back to return to normal life. (I know it can be argued that they waited that long because of the job they had to do. . .) If forward time travel is impossible, there should be a version of Harry that is about 70 years old lurking somewhere when young!Harry graduates. If forward time travel is possible, it seems to me that Harry would remember his deeds, even if he couldn't talk about it because people would think that he was crazy. After all, in the Back to the Future movies, Marty remembers his jaunt into the past and has to completely readjust to his parents' new lifestyle. "Maggie" From karenkyla3 at aol.com Mon Mar 3 16:04:41 2003 From: karenkyla3 at aol.com (karenkyla3 ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:04:41 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Comprehensilve Pet Protection Program Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53070 This is just a rambling jumble of thoughts i have had in regard to various posts I've read. (I'm a newbie to posting to this site and I believe these thoughts that I just tried to post were on a previous server that serviced this group? Sorry for the screw-up if this duplicates. I even lost that text, so now I have to try to recreate it! argh.) I find it intriguing that none of the triumverate actually picked their pets. Hedwig was a gift from Hagrid which raises the question of whether Hedwig is yet another form of protection for Harry from Dumbledore. Crookshanks landed on Hermione's head after an indefinite time in a pet store in want of an owner. (Interestingly enough, Mrs. Figg is always mentioned in the same breath as cats, is there a connection? It has also been postulated that Ms. Figg is part of Dumbledore's web of protection at the Dursley's which adds yet another layer.) And Pig flutters into Ron's life from Sirius (however, the owl is pocket-sized and could have been given to Sirius from Dumbledore as well before his hippogriff escape). Further, this raises questions as to the initial setup of this book. It has always been my perception that the trio is structured as Harry is the vital leader of sorts who is protected specifically by Dumbledore and Hermione and Ron, while vital to Harry, are involved only because Harry is. Isn't it interesting then that the above animal theory points to Dumbledore (or someone) taking an active interest in protecting Hermione and Ron specifically? "Karenkyla" From purple_801999 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 16:11:54 2003 From: purple_801999 at yahoo.com (purple_801999 ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:11:54 -0000 Subject: "Silly Little Girl" (was The Potters) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53071 Greicy wrote- > What's the deal with this comment "silly little girl". It's been > used consistantly to "describe" Hermione and to shut her up, but it > has been used with Lily as well. Well, all of the people who have callled Hermione and Lily 'silly little girls' have all been older than them and in positions of power so they are 'girls' to Voldie,Snape, etc. >Could it be possible that Hermione > is a reflection of Lily, personality wise? Involving herself in > things she ought not. In PS/SS, we know that Petunia says that Lily > became involved with that "Potter" and got herself blown up. As for Petunia, she may have held out some tiny hope that her strange sister would marry a nice normal Muggle and put her witchy ways behind her. But instead she marries a full blooded wizard who,from what we can gather, in a very round about way and not at all purposfully, brings about her death simply by marrying him and having his baby. > What else could Lily have possibly gotten herself involved in that > she "shouldn't have"? Was she a smartypants that drove the Marauders > up the wall, like Hermione usually does to Harry and Ron? > The balance of power is more even with this generation than with the Marauders, I bet. Hermione has enough trouble with just Ron and Harry, can you imagine trying to reason with four of them?!?! Lily may have had more girlfriends and outside friends :hack, cough, Snape,cough: than Hermione does since the Marauders were busy learning how to become Animagus and having grand old times. How James found the time to run around with the Maruders, play Quidditch, become prefect and Head Boy,learn to become an Animagus, antagonize and be antagonized by Snape,court Lily, and still be able to graduate is beyond me. I can't even return my library books on time. Olivia Grey From grace701 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 16:33:34 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (GRACE701 ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:33:34 -0000 Subject: "Silly Little Girl" (was The Potters) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53072 Erica wrote and quoted: >(thus [Voldemort was] not concerned about killing Lily ... 'stand >aside silly girl')? Greicy wrote: >What's the deal with this comment "silly little girl". It's been >used consistantly to "describe" Hermione and to shut her up, but it >has been used with Lily as well. Could it be possible that >Hermione is a reflection of Lily, personality wise? Involving >herself in things she ought not. In PS/SS, we know that Petunia >says that Lily became involved with that "Potter" and got herself >blown up. What else could Lily have possibly gotten herself >involved in that she "shouldn't have"? Was she a smartypants that >drove the Marauders up the wall, like Hermione usually does to >Harry and Ron? Nobody's Rib wrote: >I love this idea! >"You're the cleverest witch *of your age* I've ever met" - Lupin >to Hermione, US Hardcover PoA pg. 346 >Could there be a tiny clue to this Hermione/Lily theory in this >quote? (This is only supporting evidence if Lupin didn't get to >know Lily until they were fourth-years or older.) >I wonder how this could effect the James/Lily/Snape backstory, and >also how it plays into Snape's current treatment of Hermione. Does >he see similarities between Lily and Hermione? Does Snape's >Lily/emotional-baggage (whatever that may be - romantic, familial, >James-association, etc.) help to explain him specifically targeting >Hermione? Does Hermione's friendship with Harry only further feed >into this emotional baggage? (e.g. Snape is forced to watch >Hermione and Harry grow close just as he was forced to watch Lily >and James do the same.) Also notice the similarity between Snape and Voldemort. Snape calls Hermione a "silly little girl" and Voldemort calls Lily "silly girl" (and who knows if at some point, when she was younger, he even called her "silly little girl".) This, imo, means there was a strong relationship between Snape and Voldemort that they go about saying the same things. I, for one, after hanging out with a friend for a long time, start using some of the same phrases they use. Could this be the same for Snape and Voldemort? Greicy From grace701 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 16:37:16 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (GRACE701 ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:37:16 -0000 Subject: Chapter 13 In-Reply-To: <009901c2e197$e99088b0$079dcdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53073 Richelle Votaw wrote: >Mugglenet has an interesting list of Oddities/Coincidences, and I found this one particularly interesting: > In Chapter 13 of every book, the seemingly-innocent culprit makes an appearance. > a.. Book 1: Snape threatens Quirrel, who we think is the good guy for resisting Snape. > b.. Book 2: We learn about T.M. Riddle, who we think is a good guy for catching Hagrid and stopping the attacks. > c.. Book 3: Wormtail fakes his death for the second time, and we think he's...er...a good rat. > Though this one actually begins at the end of Chapter 12, but continues into Chapter 13, close enough. > a.. Book 4: Moody turns Malfoy into a ferret and we think he's just a cool guy. > I, for one, will be watching Chapter 13 of OotP very closely! OMG! I never read that at Mugglenet and it's good thing. Now I feel as though the whole book is going to be ruined for me. Hopefully, those were all coincidences and I shall pretend I haven't read this at all. ;) Greicy From grace701 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 16:46:35 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (GRACE701 ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:46:35 -0000 Subject: book 7: back to the future theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53074 Nobody's Rib wrote: >And either he *is* still friends with Ron and Hermione or he has a >moment when the three all catch each others' eyes and feel an oddly >strong connection. The last sentence would be Harry, pushing his >unruly hair away from his forehead, and there being no scar. I love your theory, I just can't see Harry, Ron and Hermione NOT being friends. Although, I like the part where "he has a moment when the three all catch each others' eyes and feel and oddly strong connection." I'll deal with it only if the epilogue states that because of this reason they start to interact with one another and become friends. Now didn't JKR say Harry wouldn't see a "live James and Lily" or something to that extent. Wouldn't this not work? It could though. Why? Because I don't actually believe everything JKR tells us. I think she sometimes trick us into believing things and then changes it around, just as she does with the events in the book. ;) Greicy, who absolutely loves this idea, but can't bear to see HRH not be. :( From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Mon Mar 3 17:04:34 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 17:04:34 -0000 Subject: Harry's Big Money Gift.....(Was: Clues from GoF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53075 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Erica " > wrote: > > > Me: > > > > I don't think that Harry analysed want vs need when he 'forced' > > the money onto the twins. He's been trying to get rid of it, to > > give it to anyone since he 'won' it (didn't he offer it to the > > Diggory's too?). > > 'Anyone' is not the case. In canon Harry only offers the money to > Cedric Diggory's parents before he gives it to the twins. > > I would point out that Cedric's parents are *morally* the people the > money should have gone to. Had Fudge believed Harry's story, he > would have known that Cedric was the real winner of the Triwizard > Tournament and that his prize money should have gone to his parents, > who would be his heirs in law. Even with Fudge *not* believing > Harry's story, Cedric still touched the Triwizard cup at the same > time as Harry; Harry should *never* have been given the full > thousand. The prize should have been split. > I doubt the Diggory's would ever have wanted the money, but they > should at least have been asked by Fudge if they would like it used > for something in Cedric's memory. But Fudge doesn't want to remember > Cedric. He wants the whole affair swept under the carpet. > > Harry offers it to Cedric's parents with the words 'It should've > been Cedric's, he got there first ...' [GoF, UK paperback,Ch. 37 > p.621]. > > So, in canon, the only people he's tried to give the money away to > are the people who have a moral claim to it, *or* the people who > he's just found out were cheated out of their savings. > As far as Harry's concerned it's blood money - he doesn't care who takes it, he just doesn't want to have anything to do with it. "You've got to take the rest of your potion, Hary, 'Mrs Weasley said at last. Try and think about something else for a while ... think about what you're going to buy with your winnings!" 'I don't want that gold,' said Harry in an expressionles voice. 'You have it. Anyone can have it. I shouldn't have won it. I should've been Cedrics'[GoF, CA hardback, Ch. 36 p.619]. > > Nobody wanted to take it, so he's stuck with it on the train > > ride home where he comes to find out the twins' hard luck story > > and foists the money onto them. They are hesitant to take it > > until Harry *insists*. > > Yup. I'd be hesitant if a fourteen year old offered me a thousand > quid as a gift. One thousand galleons is probably more like, say, > fifteen thousand quid? 20,000 dollars? Gred and Forge, for all their > joking around and having little bets, show their basic honesty by > *not* wanting to take Harry's money. Yes, I agree. They are basically honest and obviously think that Harry is quite barmy in trying to give it away. > > Harry is also quite specific about what he wants the money to be > used for: 'You take it and get inventing. It's for the joke-shop.' > [GoF, UK paperback,Ch. 37 p.635]. He asks them to buy Ron new dress > robes as a 'favour'. > > Would Cedric have liked the way Harry used his prize money? > Probably. He was a Hufflepuff who values hard work. He would have > liked the fact that Harry gives the money specifically to help start > the twins in their career. A career, incidentally, that Harry knows > the Twins have been working hard on. He valued fair play; he would > have liked the fact that Harry uses it to help two boys who have > been *cheated* out of their savings. > > 'Take it,' he said, and he thrust the sack into George's hands 'What?' said Fred, looking flabbergasted. 'Take it,' Harry repeated firmly. 'I don't want it' 'You're mental,' said George, trying to pus it back at Harry. [here we have a little 'hot potato' session with the sack of Galleons being thrust back and forth] 'No, I'm not,' said Harry. 'You take it, and get inventing. It's for the joke-shop' [The one thing that Harry could have said that we convince the twins to take it] 'Listen,' said Harry firmly. 'If you don't take it, I'm throwing it down the drain. I don't want it and I don't need it. But I could do with a few laughs. [GoF, CA hardback,Ch. 37 p.635]. He also asks them not to tell their mother where they got it (whould she force them to give it back?) and asks that they buy Ron some different dress robes and *say they're from you*. He wants to avoid a putting Ron in a situation of accepting an expensive(?) gift from him. > > I don't think that Harry even entertained > > the thought of giving it to Ron, not because he thought that Ron > > would blow it all on himslef on sweets and 'toys' (I happen to > > think that if Ron came into some money he'd be sharing it with his > > whole family not keeping it for himself) but because he knows > > that Ron *hates* to be beholding to him. Everytime Harry tries to > > give Ron a gift out of the ordinary (i.e. outside Christmas, > > birthdays) it seems to irritate the bejeezus out of Ron. Isn't > > that what the 'Buy Ron a new dress robe but don't tell him they're > > from me' is all about? What would Ron do if he found out that his > > new dress robes *were* from Harry? > > Erica > > > Which goes back to Jealous!Ron, which is where this whole thing > started. Ron can't accept generous gifts from a close friend who can > easily afford them. That's not so much Jealous!Ron as Proud!Ron, isn't that a trait shared by all the Weasleys? Further, Ron doesn't seem to value his family's > ability to give non-monetary gifts. Mr Weasley has wangled two extra > tickets for the QWC so Ron's *two* closest friends can come. Both of > Ron's good friends also get invited to stay at The Burrow for two > weeks. > > So Harry had just received the gift of the QWC trip from the > Weasley's. Why shouldn't he buy a 'thank you' present for Ron? But > Ron can't see it that way. Ron only wants Harry to buy him the sort > of things that Ron can afford. > > Ron is like the friend in a pub who won't let you buy him a drink > because *he* can't afford to buy you one. This can really put a > damper on a good evening [grin]. Especially when your friend can't > seem to understand that you *know* he'd buy his round if he had the > money. > to two people he knows who need the money and will use it for their > futures? Especially since, as Harry points out, the WW is probably > going to 'need' a few good laughs in its near future .... The question was (Carry wrote:) > Well....why didn't Harry give Ron the money?? Ron's his best > friend, he knows he needs money for things. He knows how > frustrated Ron is of hand-me-downs, etc. Ron is always (well > except for a huge part of GoF) there for him, helped him get on > his feet in the WW, etc. He owes Ron a lot. And he just disses him > like that. You would think at least he would give the twin's the > money Ludo owed them and the balance to Ron. Is our little Harry > harboring angst toward Ron still?? Hmmmm... You suggested: I think Harry is distinguishing between 'want' and 'need'. If he gives it to Ron, all Ron will do is spend it on sweets, toys and the sort of stuff a 14 year old would spend it on. If he gives it to the Twins, they'll use it to kick start their career .... However, I'm of the opinion that there was no 'distinguishing between want and need' on Harry's part. Harry didn't give Ron the money (IMHO), not because he was harboring angst towards Ron, but because he *knew* Ron wouldn't take it and that even suggesting it would wrankle - so why bother. So he's back to where he'd started - how does he get rid of it. He didn't analyse the how Ron vs the Twins would *use* the money: 'What would Ron spend the money on if I gave it to him. Would he fritter it away' 'The Twins, OTOH, have a career goal in mind. They won't fritter it away. They'd invest it. Yeah, thats it, I'll give it to the twins' Erica (hopes to God she's didn't make a mess of the cutting and pasting ;) ) From seventhsqueal at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 17:11:28 2003 From: seventhsqueal at yahoo.com (SeventhSqueal) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 09:11:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Lists D.E. & Malfoy (Re: Clues in GoF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030303171128.73001.qmail@web10704.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53076 This is a continuation of Gina and ggershman77's exploration of Harry's rattling off of Deatheaters names that he witnessed at the DE Summoning in the graveyard at the end of GoF. Harry is recuperating in the infirmary and the Weasley's, Fudge, Dumbledore and Snape are all there around him listening to him recount his traumatic experience. During Harry's story, Fudge keeps interjecting with his comments about the lack of reliability of the story. Preposterous! Fudge is in complete denial and a state of shock that Voldemort has returned and acts like someone for whom Voldemort's return severely compromises him, personally or politically or both. Then there is the passage where Harry names Lucius Malfoy and Snape twitches and his eyes fly over to Fudge probably to check out Fudge's reaction to Harry's news. IMO what might have happened there if one assumes that Snape and Malfoy are in cahoots is this: We see from the text in GoF that Fudge and Malfoy are developing some kind of relationship. One example is that Fudge gets the Malfoys great seats to the Quidditch World Cup because Lucius has given a sum of money to St. Mungo's. (To guarantee the continued containment and ill health of the Longbottoms? Maybe.) Lucius is working on Fudge. He's using the Minister of Magic to further his own agenda. I suspect that what Fudge has done or is doing for Lucius can be outed by the resurrection of Voldemort. I also suggest that Fudge thinks that Malfoy is genuinely innocent of having been a Deatheater. So for him to hear that Voldemort is back, and that the guy he's been helping or perhaps taking bribes from could make him an accessory and compromise him professionally. Perhaps Malfoy assured Fudge that Voldemort is a non-issue he could never come back. Snape knows that Malfoy has been working on Fudge. He is upset that Fudge now knows that Malfoy went back to Voldemort earlier that night. Fudge doesn't know that Snape and Malfoy are working together. Snape knows that Voldemort's resurrection is bad news for Fudge. But it is in Malfoy and Snape's best interests for Fudge to commit the resources of the ministry towards fighting off the resurrected Voldemort. They want Voldemort out of the way, as well as wanting to distract the entire MoM with Voldemort hysteria. Snape tries to break through Fudge's denial by *cough* baring his flesh and explaining the Dark Mark as proof of Voldemort's resurrection. (BTW Fudge and the rest of the WW might know about the Dark Marks they probably were made common knowledge during the DE trials, but it's been what? 13 years and details like that can fade in memory.) ===== ~SeventhSqueal There's no earthly way of knowing / Which direction we are going / There's no knowing where we're rowing / Or which way the river's flowing / Is it raining? / Is it snowing? / Is a hurricane a-blowing? / Not a speck of light is showing / So the danger must be growing / Are the fires of hell a-glowing? / Is the grisly reaper mowing? / Yes, the danger must be growing / 'Cause the rowers keep on rowing / And they're certainly not showing / Any signs that they are slowing! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Mar 3 17:22:27 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 17:22:27 -0000 Subject: Polyjuice!Arabela and other Polydoubts In-Reply-To: <20030303153418.28704.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53077 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Morgan D." wrote: > I'm gonna risk bringing up this old topic again, in hopes that I can add up a point or two that hasn't been exhaustedly discussed yet. I have another to add to the mix. Doesn't it seem a mite suspicious that we have two sets of twins in Harry's generation (the Patils and the Weasleys) and none for the Marauder years? Now in fan fiction it's usually Remus who has a twin, the Romulus/Remus connection being irresistable, but here's an alternative: What if Arabella Figg and Mrs. Lestrange are twins? We don't have a maiden name for either of them, do we? Suppose that Quirrell kidnapped Mrs. Figg and smuggled her into Azkaban, swapping her for Mrs. Lestrange, who then took Mrs. Figg's place in Little Whinging? There'd be no need for polyjuice if the women are twins. As for the cabbage-y smell...aging potion? Mrs Lestrange may indeed have made more than one attempt to harm Harry (the funny tasting chocolate cake comes to mind) but been thwarted by the protections Voldemort speaks of. And how would he know they're so potent if he hasn't tested them? Pippin From probono at rapidnet.com Mon Mar 3 17:49:56 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 17:49:56 -0000 Subject: book 7: back to the future theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53078 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nobodysrib " wrote: > Way before I ever started coming here and delving far into the books > I had an idea for how the books may end. I haven't been able to find > this discussed in any of the archives, and thought I'd post it to see > if y'all spot anything in the canon that may support (or go against) > it. > > I think JKR has mentioned in an interview that either time travel or > the time turner will be used again. My idea, which I call the Back > to the Future Theory: Probably in book 7, Harry realizes that he > cannot defeat Voldemort "on his own" (Voldemort has gotten too > strong, etc.). And so Harry is given the option of traveling back in > time (time turner?) to defeat Tom Riddle - and thus stop Voldemort. > (or possibly he will change an even in Riddle's life that will stop > him from becoming Voldemort). Me: Actually, I have a (fairly week) back to the future theory of my own. But, it doesn't happen in book 7. My theory is that Harry is actually "the stranger. The teenage boy, dark-haired and pale" that Frank Bryce sees on the day of the Riddle Murders. My reasoning: At the time this event took place (Tom Riddle's 7th year at Hogwart's), Tom would already have taken his Apparating Test and could have simply apparated to the drawing room of the mansion, without any witnesses. Why linger outside? If Harry, on the other hand, were to use the time-turner in his 5th or 6th year, he would not yet be able to apparate. He'd have to break into the Riddle house, using traditional methods (handy-dandy multi-purpose pen-knife, anyone)? So, know the question is why? Why would Harry go-back in time to this particular event? Riddle killing his family could be more important than we know yet. Perhaps Harry is trying to stop it. The problem is, Tom could just try again...and again...and again, if necessary. Is Harry trying to kill Tom? If so, I don't know why he would choose this time and place for it, other than it really would be difficult to murder someone on the Hogwarts grounds. The orphanage might work, but we know that on this date at this time, Riddle will be at this location. It's a dead lock. I really can't see Harry going back to kill the Riddle family himself. But, you never know! There are some problems. The main one being that Harry doesn't yet know the circumstances surrounding the Riddle murders. He doesn't know when or where or how they took place...only that Tom did it. He could always look it up in the papers, but he hasn't done so yet. Ok, assuming that this did happen, it's obvious (I think) that Harry did not succeed in his mission. Because the Riddles were murdered and the (assumed) new time line, is actually the time-line we've been reading all along. True, it's not a very strong theory. But I thought, what the hey? Why not! -Tanya From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Mon Mar 3 17:56:28 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 17:56:28 -0000 Subject: Polydoubts (was Arabella Figg) In-Reply-To: <20030303153418.28704.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53079 Morgan D. wrote, as part of an elegant dissection of various Arabella Figg theories: > Honestly, I don't see why Barty Jr has to keep Moody around and alive. > Moody's hair is used for the potion, but hair is a > dead tissue. It shouldn't lose its "properties" even if cut from the > subject years before the making of the potion. One possibility is that Polyjuice only works as long as the person being mimicked is alive. I think there must be some sort of magical connection to the person: for example, how does Moody's hair contain the information that he has a missing leg? We can speculate under this possibility what would happen to a Polyjuice disguise if the original suffers injury or death while the disguise is in force. > According to Hermione (CoS ch 10), the Polyjuice Potion takes about a > month to be brewed (at least "the lacewings have got to be stewed for > twenty-one days"). > > According to Veritaserum!Barty Jr > (GoF ch 35), "Wormtail and I did it. We had prepared the Polyjuice > Potion beforehand". But Voldemort and Wormtail only rescued Barty after > the World Cup Final, which took place either one or two weeks before > the September 1st (the references to that, in chapters 3 and 10 of GoF, > seem contradictory). There's not enough time for them to brew the > potion before the school term. ... wouldn't Barty > Jr, under Snape's "strongest Veritaserum", ... [have] said something like, "They had everything > planned. Wormtail had already started brewing the Polyjuice Potion, and > I helped him finish it"? I agree that the timescale is very tight for the whole Moody kidnap sub-plot, and it stretches credibility. Why did Voldemort leave it so late? However, perhaps the wording of Crouch's confession may just indicate his very strong identification with Voldemort and his gang. So, we can interpret this passage along the lines of: "Wormtail and I kidnapped Moody. We the conspirators had already prepared the potion." David From artsylynda at aol.com Mon Mar 3 18:24:19 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (Lynda Sappington ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 18:24:19 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups]Crystal ball (was Re: Godric's Hollow) In-Reply-To: <001801c2e19d$79957bf0$8d9fcdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53080 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > Finwitch wrote: > > > I do believe Harry's a Seer- or could be, if he set his mind to it. > > He has seen Buckbeak in Crystal Ball, his dreams have been about past > > or present... > > It's not that I don't think Harry may be a Seer, but I don't think he saw Buckbeak in the crystal ball. From PoA Chapter 16: > > Harry bent over the crystal ball and stared, stared as hard as he could, willing it to show him something other than swirling white fog, but nothing happened. > > He thought of what Ron had just said, and decided to pretend. "Er-- " said Harry, "a dark shape . . . um . . ." > > Harry cast his mind around and it landed on Buckbeak. > > I think this basically tells us that Buckbeak was the first thing Harry thought of, he clearly lets us know that he saw nothing but swirling white fog in the crystal ball. > > Richelle THat just proves Harry doesn't need a crystal ball or tea leaves or anything else external to "see" the future. All his "prophetic-type" dreams, visions, etc., have been inside his head, and all have come true. Trelawney's darkened room with its various aromas, smoke, etc., may heighten the experience or make it easier for Harry to have his visions, but he has his visions all by himself, no "equipment" needed -- that makes him a much more interesting and probably more trustworthy "seer" than Trelawney will ever be. And his dreams are accurate. Amazing stuff. He'd get an A in Trelawney's class if he ever 'fessed up! LOL! Lynda From orangebee7 at chartermi.net Mon Mar 3 14:22:20 2003 From: orangebee7 at chartermi.net (katherinemoor ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 14:22:20 -0000 Subject: Hagrid in Knockturn Alley (WAS: Flesh-Eating Slug Repellent) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53081 Hey all~ I've been following a few discussions about CoS clues and the importance of Hagrid's Knockturn Alley visit, and I just wanted to throw in my two cents. Tanya said, in a list of possible CoS clues: >Hagrid shows up in Knockturn Alley. Not very big in the book, but >Coltrane plays it up onscreen and Coltrane knows where his >character is going. Me: Exactly. I know that TMTMNBN is not canon, but we know for a fact that JKR has shared important things about her characters' futures with the actors that play them. She knows what's coming, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if Coltrane's deliverance of the Flesh- Eating Slug line was meant to make us think. (Even if it wasn't, trust HPFGU Listees to think about it anyway. ;-D) I admit that Finwitch's idea about Hagrid spending time in Knockturn Alley because of his "broken wand" status is more plausible than what I'm about to suggest, but the whole affair seems to have been kept rather quiet. After all, Dumbledore tells us that very few people even know that Voldemort and Riddle are the same person (Ch. 18 CoS). When Harry is wondering whether or not to report the robbery of Riddle's diary, he hesitates because he doesn't want to bring Hagrid into the picture: "He'd have to tell a teacher all about the diary, and how many people knew why Hagrid had been expelled fifty years ago? He didn't want to be the one who brought it all up again." (Ch. 14 CoS) What with that and the number of parents who send owls to Dumbledore in GoF, telling him "in no uncertain terms" that they would have something to say if he sacked Hagrid, I have a hard time believing that Hagrid is viewed as any kind of criminal. What I'm suggesting is something along the lines of Spy!Hagrid. We know that Dumbledore is well aware of what's going on in the wizarding world. We also know that he trusts Hagrid, since he often chooses him to carry out important tasks (i.e. rescuing baby Harry, collecting the PS/SS from Gringotts). So why shouldn't Dumbledore be using Hagrid to keep an eye on Lucius Malfoy? It makes sense to me that Dumbledore would keep a close watch on "former" DEs, simply for the sake of keeping the wizarding world safe. These people are dangerous (obviously), and keeping track of their doings in public situations would be an advantageous thing for Spymaster!Dumbledore to do. Simple enough, right? Wrong. Okay, maybe it really is that simple. But think about it: not only did Hagrid show up in Knockturn Alley, he also popped out of nowhere in Flourish and Blotts to pull Arthur and Lucius apart when they were attempting to rip eachother to pieces. And what happened a second later? Lucius handed Ginny her Transfiguration book *with Riddle's diary inside*. So what's going on here? I'm thinking that we might be looking at a manifestation of Dishwasher!Dumbledore. It seems possible that he knew about the diary, and about Lucius's connection with it. After all, he doesn't seem surprised when Harry makes the connection. He smiles and behaves quite calmly (Ch 18 CoS). But I have a really hard time believing that Dumbledore was totally in control of the plot in CoS. I subscribe to the idea that he more or less knew everything that went on in PS/SS, and that the obstacles guarding the Stone were tailored to the talents of HRH, to give them "practice" for what was to come. In CoS, however, things were much more dangerous. The entire school was affected, and several students escaped death by lucky chance. Maybe Dumbledore's handling of Lucius at the end of CoS was just typical Dumbledore behavior. It's true that we rarely see him get upset. However, he seems slightly amused, which reminds me of his reaction to Snape's hospital wing tantrum at the end of PoA, when he knew what was going on and Snape didn't have a clue. All right, I've just confused myself, and most likely several others, so if anyone can set me straight, I'd be grateful. Forgive me if any of this has been brought up before, but I just couldn't resist. Peace, Kate who has finally delurked and hopes that she won't get anything thrown at her due to half-cocked theorizing From jeanneblade at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 17:39:27 2003 From: jeanneblade at yahoo.com (Jeanne Blade) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 09:39:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Polyjuice!Arabela and other Polydoubts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030303173927.99696.qmail@web14704.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53082 --- Pippin wrote > What if Arabella Figg and Mrs. Lestrange are twins? > We don't > have a maiden name for either of them, do we? > Suppose that > Quirrell kidnapped Mrs. Figg and smuggled her into > Azkaban, > swapping her for Mrs. Lestrange, who then took Mrs. > Figg's > place in Little Whinging? Me: Mrs. Figg and Mrs. Lestrange (suddenly finds humor in the last name Le STRANGE) cannot possibly be twins. If Mrs. Figg was meant to protect Harry, why wouldn't she just be her normal young self, having more agility in her reflexes, and better able to do so? The aging potion cannot have much of a possiility. Therefore, mrs. Figg is really a little old lady. Which leads to the conclusion that she and Mrs. Lestrange aren't twins. Jeanne Blade __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From seventhsqueal at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 17:41:08 2003 From: seventhsqueal at yahoo.com (SeventhSqueal) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 09:41:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Silly Little Girl" (was The Potters) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030303174108.76153.qmail@web10703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53083 Greicy wrote: Also notice the similarity between Snape and > Voldemort. Snape calls Hermione a "silly little girl" and Voldemort calls > Lily "silly girl" (and who knows if at some point, when she was > younger, he even called her "silly little girl".) This, imo, means > there was a strong relationship between Snape and Voldemort that > they go about saying the same things. I, for one, after hanging > out with a friend for a long time, start using some of the same > phrases they use. > Could this be the same for Snape and Voldemort? 7thSqueal responds: Yes. It's also possible that when Harry hears his mother's death scene in his head and the phrase "Get out of the way, you silly girl" it's not Voldemort but Snape. 'Silly girl' could be Snape's phrase. Snape could have been there when Lily died, either by accompanying Voldemort or he could have arrived before to warn the family and protect the baby. ===== ~SeventhSqueal There's no earthly way of knowing / Which direction we are going / There's no knowing where we're rowing / Or which way the river's flowing / Is it raining? / Is it snowing? / Is a hurricane a-blowing? / Not a speck of light is showing / So the danger must be growing / Are the fires of hell a-glowing? / Is the grisly reaper mowing? / Yes, the danger must be growing / 'Cause the rowers keep on rowing / And they're certainly not showing / Any signs that they are slowing! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From manawydan at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 3 18:47:40 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 18:47:40 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape References: <1046692925.1629.27143.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000d01c2e1b5$5e6fa360$dd4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 53084 SeventhSqueal wrote@ >Now on to a suggestion of why Snape is such an >impatient and bullying teacher. My guess is that Snape >is much too over-qualified a potions master to be >teaching rudimentary potions to children. He knows his >stuff but he's not teacher material. Being a good And perhaps, like many teachers and professors, he _hates_ students. It's not uncommon, especially among research types, in higher education, and I'm sure there are plenty of examples in schools also. I know that Snape was based on a real teacher who taught science at Chepstow Comp while Rowling was there, so there are obviously some real life features... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From karenkyla3 at aol.com Mon Mar 3 18:23:34 2003 From: karenkyla3 at aol.com (karenkyla3 ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 18:23:34 -0000 Subject: book 7: back to the future theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53085 I don't want to be the wet blanket theory here because I really am intrigued by Tanya's idea especially that there may be clues in the past that Harry has gone back and changed very specific things, but as far as killing Voldemort off in the past I am skeptical. First of all, plot-wise it's a cop-out way to solve the problem of Voldemort. Secondly, canon states that the time-turner can only be used for specific purposes with finite results. (Hermione tells Harry that they can't save Sirius because they don't know what chain of events that would set into motion, they must only do as Dumbledore asks for which they already have clues of what has been done.) Killing Voldemort in the past has probably the most far-reaching of all consequences - it could not be quantified. It would throw their existence out of whack. Thematically it would be bad because it is contrary to what we know of life. While JoAnn's subject matter is certainly in the realm of magic, her themes are those that are concrete to what we experience. By using the time-turner solution for the end of Voldemort is to send the message that problems can be solved simplistically by going back in time and changing them which we know not to be true. This would drive a wedge between our identification with Harry and would ultimately be detrimental to the story. Or at least that's my humble opinion. Stacey From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Mon Mar 3 19:03:17 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 19:03:17 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pronunciation Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53086 >In a message dated 21/02/2003 02:06:53 Eastern Standard Time, >crookshanks731 at sbcglobal.net writes: >As for Accio..I say AK-see-o..All the websites I have visited say it > > is ah-see-oh....I don't like that way...lol > >Me: > >Wow, we have a lot of pronunciations on that one >AH-see-oh >AHK-see-oh >AK-see-oh >AA-see-oh > >And I'm about to add another...I say [AH-chee-oh]. It know a few people >with >Italian names containing double "c'"s and the double "c" is always >pronounced >like "ch." I assume that it would be pronounced the same in Latin, since >Italian and Latin are so close. > I also pronounce it "AH-cheeoh": during the Middle Ages, Latin was starting to elide into Italian (which was actually a bunch of regional dialects and didn't become anything like standard until the mid-19th century), and my choir director in church choir taught us to pronounce the medievally-written carols with these sorts of pronunciations. Since Hogwarts dates from about the time of the early Middle Ages, I'm going with a more medieval scholars' Latin than Classical Roman Latin. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Mon Mar 3 19:00:38 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 19:00:38 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's big money gift Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53087 > > ....why didn't Harry give Ron the money?? > >It seemed natural to me for Harry to give the money to the twins, after >he'd >had time to think about it (after he stopped trying to give it to the >Diggory >family and to the folks in his hospital room). Ron's jealous of Harry in >certain ways, and embarrassed about being poor. If Harry gave the money to >Ron, Ron would be humiliated that Harry was *acknowledging* Ron's poverty >(Harry buying candy for Ron isn't the same kind of embarrassment as >*giving* >Ron 1000 Galleons -- Harry shares the candy with Ron -- he gives Ron the >Omnioculars as a present and says it's for the next three Christmases to >keep >Ron from being embarrassed). Ron hates the idea of anyone acknowledging >his >poverty, and Harry is wise enough to understand that -- that's why he >doesn't >give the Weasleys money at other points in the books. Giving the money to >the twins, with the caveat that they must buy Ron new dress robes, means >the >money will be put to good use (to a boy Harry's age and with his >experience, >trying to ensure more laughter in the world would be a very important >thing) >and Ron won't be forever embarrassed that Harry thought of him as so poor >that he *had* to give him that money. The twins see it as an investment as >much as a gift, I think, and I believe Harry does too. I think he made the >right choice. JMHO. > >Lynda >* * * >"Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA > I guess I'm kind of alone in this, but I really think JKR is making too much of the money thing and Ron. All I can think of is that she must be doing it to make a point later in the books - that maybe it is in fact going to turn out to be Ron's "Achilles Heel", as it were. He might be offered a tempting amount of money to do something dubious, but I don't think it would be as obvious as "come over to the Dark Side, my son". I think it's more likely to be something questionable that will put him in a situation it would be hard to reveal all about, so he covers it up, etc. But anyway: all I can think is that the Weasley children were all severely lectured against taking any kind of help from anyone outside the family, the way that some families in this country get their backs up about "charity" - even though some of the same sets of beliefs that urge them against accepting it also urge people to extend it, but never mind. Ron is the one that any kind of monetary favor seems to prickle the most - I suspect it's because he's the one we're "closest" to, but he may also be the child it bothers the most because his hobbies might lead him to expensive tastes - he could yearn for tickets to the Chudley Cannon matches and home and away robes and posters and books... What puzzles me is why Harry doesn't just do things like make an anonymous deposit in the Weasley account (maybe, as I suggested elsewhere, it's because they're numbered like Switzerland and he doesn't know the number and can't ask for it), or buy great birthday and Christmas presents for Ron and the rest of the Weasleys (although the ones he does get for Ron are quite good). The Weasleys have him to stay for a couple of weeks at a time - he could *insist* that Mrs. Weasley take him shopping for food at whatever the market equivalent is and do a really grand spree to restock her larder, or something like that out of gratitude for bed and board that gets him away from the Dursleys for a bit. This is one element that feels just too uncomfortably like a plot farrago to me on JKR's part; I've been helped and extended help myself at various points in my life, and it just isn't that hard to do if you put your mind to it. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 19:18:03 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002 ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 19:18:03 -0000 Subject: Harry the Seer (WAS:Crystal ball) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53088 Finwitch wrote: > I do believe Harry's a Seer- or could be, if he set his mind to > it. He has seen Buckbeak in Crystal Ball, his dreams have been > about past or present... and Richelle commented: > It's not that I don't think Harry may be a Seer, but I don't think > he saw Buckbeak in the crystal ball. and Lynda added: > That just proves Harry doesn't need a crystal ball or tea leaves or > anything else external to "see" the future. Now me: I believe Harry has both the gifts of prophecy and prescience. He has had numerous dreams in which he demonstrates his ability to know of events occurring far away from him ? for example, when he dreams of Voldemort and Wormtail plotting his murder and witnesses Voldemort's murder of Frank Bryce, and when he falls asleep in Professor Trelawney's class and hears Voldemort and Wormtail discussing Barty Crouch Jr.'s murder of Crouch Sr. Harry's gift of prophecy is demonstrated in a dream about Professor Quirrell's turban (before he becomes aware that Voldemort is underneath it), when he hears a high, cold laugh and sees a burst of green light. He also has an uncanny ability to know when someone is nearby, even when he can't see the person. Whether or not Harry really predicted Buckbeak's survival is open to debate, but I think the above examples are sufficient to deem him a seer. IMO, the above examples support the "Harry as Heir of Gryffindor" theory because the real St. Godric had the gift of prophecy and the ability to know of events occurring hundreds or thousands of miles away. ~Phyllis From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 19:30:02 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 19:30:02 -0000 Subject: Hagrid: Allowed to use Wands and Magic...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53089 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Juliet " wrote: > > "Be grateful if yeh didn't mention that ter anyone at Hogwarts," he > said. "I'm--er--not supposed to do magic, strictly speakin'. > ...edited... > > Huh. So, it seems Hagrid, upon being expelled, was not allowed to > do magic OR to use a wand. We know Underaged Wizards can't do > magic, so I'm guessing that might go to Unqualified Wizards, as > well(but then why doesn't Hagrid get letters ....) > ...edited... > > ~Aldrea, bboy_mn: When Hagrid was accused of a 'crime' (first opening of the CoS) he wasn't convicted of that crime because the Ministry wanted to keep it quiet, but he was sanctioned. His sanction, was to be expelled from Hogwarts which I believe was both a school and a governmental punishment; sort of a plea bargain. Being expelled meant he couldn't become a fully qualified wizard. However, having stayed on as gamekeeper, he was generally away from the wizarding population in the somewhat private confines of Hogwarts where a very benevolent Dumbledore had no problem looking the other way, or granting Hagrid special permission to use magic in specific cases. Now, today, Hagrid has been at Hogwarts for over 50 years, and has become literally become a part of the school. Because his presents is so taken for granted, I think the staff convienently ignore any magic he does. He enchants the pumpkins to the size of a small sheds, he grows 20 foot high hedges in no time. ...and other similar examples of his continued and obvious use of magic. The general wizard population, at least everyone under 70, has grown up knowing Hagrid by seening him in school, and those over 70 have gotten to know him at Hogsmeade and Diagon Alley, and they know him to be a good guy who would never intentionally harm anyone. So, by mutual unofficial agreement, they ignore Hagrid's restriction from doing magic. I think this even includes the Ministry. Officially, they have to say he shouldn't, but behind the scenes, they know Hagrid and don't care. Hagrid doesn't get letters because most of the time he is on the grounds of Hogwarts which to some extent is a private, closed, and supervised environment. It's not like he is running amok through the country side doing magic. And most important of all, he is no longer underage. The letter Harry got was for violation of the Restiction for UNDERAGE Wizardry. So there would be no reason for Hagrid to get one of those. Had Hagrid simply quit school and was now of-age, there wouldn't be anything restricting him from doing magic; he simple would not be a train quaified wizard. For example, you can still weld metal or build houses without being a trained qualified welder or carpenter. Certainly, his job opportunites and his social status would suffer greatly, and for the most part, while he would know very little magic, there would be nothing to truly stop him. In Hagrid's actual case, however, his restriction from doing magic was probably part of the sanction against him. But again, knowing Hargid, the general wizard population knows he's a good guy, and have no problem looking the other way, and in fact, in many cases, even asking him to do magic for them. Of course, there are also the special cases where Dumbledore has actually given him permission to do something. So part of the reason he gets away with it, is that most of it occurs at Hogwarts; a closed, private, supervised environment. The other reason is that people like Hagrid and they know he is an OK guy, so they convienently look the other way. After CoS, I think it was assumed that unofficially the sanction was no longer in effect. Now people don't even bother to look the other way, they just accept it. Although I most definitely want it to be, I do not think the sanction has been officially lifted and Hagrid hasn't been officially allowed to work toward his GOED (General Owl Equivalancy Diploma). I am most definitely looking forward to Hagrid getting a new wand which will be the first sign that he is back on the road to becoming a fully qualified wizard. I don't think this will happen in the background, when it does happen it will be a big deal and we all definitely know about it. Just a few thoughts. boy_mn From siskiou at earthlink.net Mon Mar 3 19:39:32 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:39:32 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry the Seer (WAS:Crystal ball) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1054877858.20030303113932@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53090 Hi, Monday, March 03, 2003, 11:18:03 AM, erisedstraeh2002 wrote: > but I think the above examples are sufficient to deem him a > seer. Oh, I hope this turns out not to be the case! Harry has so many talents already, it'd get to the point (for me) where I'd roll my eyes and start thinking of Harry as unbelievable. Kind of like Ayla, in the "Earth's Children" series. Loved the first book, but with each subsequent one liked her less and less. I don't want this to happen to Harry! -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 19:44:43 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:44:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Harry the Seer (WAS:Crystal ball) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030303194443.77532.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53091 --- Phyllis wrote: > I believe Harry has both the gifts of prophecy and prescience. He has > had numerous dreams in which he demonstrates his ability to know of > events occurring far away from him for example, when he dreams of > Voldemort and Wormtail plotting his murder and witnesses Voldemort's > murder of Frank Bryce, and when he falls asleep in Professor > Trelawney's class and hears Voldemort and Wormtail discussing Barty > Crouch Jr.'s murder of Crouch Sr. Harry's gift of prophecy is > demonstrated in a dream about Professor Quirrell's turban (before he > becomes aware that Voldemort is underneath it), when he hears a high, > cold laugh and sees a burst of green light. He also has an uncanny > ability to know when someone is nearby, even when he can't see the > person. > > Whether or not Harry really predicted Buckbeak's survival is open to > debate, but I think the above examples are sufficient to deem him a > seer. Personally, I think the above examples are sufficient to deem Harry very connected to Voldemort, nothing more. Each of the examples you cited were a DIRECT connect to Voldemort, which have all been explained by the connection to Voldemort embodied in Harry's scar. The connection lets him share Voldie's thoughts when Voldie is either close or feeling "especially murderous", which explains the dreams about Frank Bryce and Voldie & Wormtail's discussion. The connection to Voldie also explains the dream about Quirrel's turban -- Voldie was UNDER the turban, so he was definitely nearby! Whether the dream was an actual attempt by Voldie to communicate with Harry or just Harry's unconscious mind interpreting what it was sensing from the turban is debatable, but it still stems from Harry's connection to Voldemort, not any mythical prophetic skills. The only dream of Harry's we've seen so far that IMO has ANY connection to possible prophetic abilities comes from POA when he heard hoofbeats in connection to his father before finding out about Prongs. However, I think this is better explained by Harry's subconscious memories of his parents before their deaths, which being around the Dementors has stirred up. I think it's asking a LITTLE too much for Harry to be a Seer on top of everything else in his life, when these examples can be explained much more easily by things that have already appeared in canon. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From seventhsqueal at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 19:26:10 2003 From: seventhsqueal at yahoo.com (seventhsqueal ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 19:26:10 -0000 Subject: Chapter 13 In-Reply-To: <009901c2e197$e99088b0$079dcdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53092 Richelle posted: Mugglenet has an interesting list of Oddities/Coincidences, and I found this one particularly interesting: In Chapter 13 of every book, the seemingly-innocent culprit makes an appearance. (list of structure similarities from book-to-book snipped) SeventhSqueal responds: The books seem to have a consistent structure. It reminds me of the plays of Shakespeare. The climax always comes in the third act of a Shakespeare play. Another consistency is the concentration of rich information (clues) that she packs into the denouements that always have Dumbledore. Except in GoF where instead of leveling off into a peaceful solution the book ends in tension and crisis. The analogy of the Shakespeare plays comes back if one notices that book 4 is the middle book just as act III is the middle act in Shakespeare's plays. Voldemort's resurrection seems to be the turning point of the series and it is all resolution from this point on. But even though it's not a one on one denouement with Dumbledore again, Dumbledore is still there and the information and clues about future development of the books is there. Peace, ~SeventhSqueal From karenkyla3 at aol.com Mon Mar 3 19:35:15 2003 From: karenkyla3 at aol.com (karenkyla3 ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 19:35:15 -0000 Subject: "Silly Little Girl" (was The Potters) In-Reply-To: <20030303174108.76153.qmail@web10703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53093 This, imo, means > > there was a strong relationship between Snape and Voldemort that > > they go about saying the same things. I, for one, after hanging > > out with a friend for a long time, start using some of the same > > phrases they use. > > > Could this be the same for Snape and Voldemort? I have often wondered at Snape's motivations and have always had the haunting supsicion that perhaps his envy extends beyond his position at Hogwarts. I've been getting the vibe that Snape was envious not just of James, but of the marauder group. Maybe, just maybe, Snape was the introspective outsider who desperately wanted to be part of a peer group (the marauders) and because he was resentful, not only not to belong, but also of their taunting treatment of him, he by all appearances despised them. Taken a step further, this is the pathology for the Manson Girls - an adolescent with low self-esteem who is taunted by his appears while desperately wanting to belong is picked up by an evil matermind who provides the acceptance and comraderie he longs for. This could very well be why Dumbledore is sympathetic to his plight. Snape at some point probably woke up and realized he wasn't going to get the love he was seeking from where he was and if that love he was longing for was extended by Dumbledore then all the more reason to disregard Voldemort. It would also explain why Dumbledore indulges Snape so much in Snape's resentment of the marauders and by extension Harry. Which kind of ties into something else I noticed. Recently I had been studying the history of the Quakers, a religious sect who believe, among other things, in the absolute supremacy of pacifism - that one should always build bridges to others and never erect walls of resentment leading to war. That stuck in my mind in the intial book when Draco offers friendship to Harry before the sorting ceremony. Granted, he was offering it while simultaneously attacking Ron. However, in that moment Harry made an enemy of Draco. He could have countered Draco with any number of things but what he said at that moment created an immediate and irreversible wall between the two characters. It was at that moment that they became enemies. While we cannot expect Harry at his age to have thought this through and responded in a more sophisticated way that might have bridged the gap while standing up for Ron at the same time (many adults would be hard-pressed to accomplish this, including myself), it is the defining and pivotal point in creating sides in his generation with regard to this conflict. I wonder if this was the case in Snape's schoolyears as well with the marauders. I could see him offering a rather backhanded offer of friendship and getting a similar response from Sirious or the others. While this conflict began with Voldemort, it appears to continue through each generation with many parallels. imho, this could be another one.... thoughts? Stacey From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Mar 3 20:02:22 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 20:02:22 -0000 Subject: Harry's big money gift In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53094 Felinia wrote: > >>What puzzles me is why Harry doesn't just do things like make an anonymous deposit in the Weasley account (maybe, as I suggested elsewhere, it's because they're numbered like Switzerland and he doesn't know the number and can't ask for it), or buy great birthday and Christmas presents for Ron and the rest of the Weasleys (although the ones he does get for Ron are quite good). The Weasleys have him to stay for a couple of weeks at a time - he could *insist* that Mrs. Weasley take him shopping for food at whatever the > market equivalent is and do a really grand spree to restock her larder, or something like that out of gratitude for bed and board that gets him away from the Dursleys for a bit.<<< It's very difficult for many parents to accept financial help from children even when the children are grown. It reverses the "natural" order since it makes the parent dependent on the child. I think Harry understands that the Weasleys would be very uncomfortable accepting any but minor gifts (and he could already be giving those offscreen, so to speak.) If the Weasleys did receive another unexpected windfall, as they did in Book Three, they'd probably take another vacation rather than set the Twins up in a business they don't approve of or buy a broomstick for Ron when the Twins will soon be leaving Hogwarts and presumably not playing Quidditch anymore (one for Ron, one for Ginny?). Although they spend extravagantly for once in a liftetime opportunities like the trip to Egypt and the Quidditch World Cup, their financial philosophy is to be frugal when shopping for their children. This is a contrast with the Malfoys, who get the best of everything for Draco. Pippin From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 20:23:48 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 20:23:48 -0000 Subject: Harry's Big Money Gift.... & more on money In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53095 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Erica " > wrote: > > Cedric still touched the Triwizard cup at the same > time as Harry; Harry should *never* have been given the full > thousand. The prize should have been split. > bboy_MN: Agreed, officially they tied so they share the Cup and the prize money, but Cerdic is no longer around. So that leaves Harry. -end this part- > I doubt the Diggory's would ever have wanted the money, > ...edited... > the only people he's tried to give the money away to are the people > who have a moral claim to it, *or* the people who he's just found > out were cheated out of their savings. > bboy_mn: I also doubt that the Diggory's would want the money, they would be just as uncomfortable as Harry at gaining something from Cedric's death. As someone else pointed out, Harry offerred to return the money to the Ministry; he tried to refuse to take it. Then he offerred it to anyone in the room who wanted it. Then he offerred it to the Diggory's who refused, and finally to Fred and George. -end this part- > > Yup. I'd be hesitant if a fourteen year old offered me a thousand > quid as a gift. One thousand galleons is probably more like, say, > fifteen thousand quid? 20,000 dollars? > bboy_mn: Sorry to be a nit picking jerk but G1,000 = ?5,000 = $8,100 (at current exchange rates). Generally to estimate conversion between currency, I use 1:5:7. The G1:?5 was given by JKR in an interview. The ?5:$7 constantly fluctuates with currencies exchange rates. As an additional reference point, 1 Sickle is about 47 cents (US at current rates), and 1 Knut is about 1.6 cents. (1G=17S=493K) The twins originally bet about G38 (37G.15S.3K) on th World Cup, or ?190 or $308 (multiply ? x 1.62). Bagman said he would give them good odds, but even at 10:1 they wouldn't have come close to the amount Harry gave them. To Fred and George Weasley, $308 IS a small fortune. By the same token, $8,100 is a big fortune. Also, Bagman gave Fred and George G5 for the trick wand; G5=?25=$40; pretty generous I would say, although, he only added that G5 to their bet, so it's likely that he thought he would never have to pay. More money... If a Firebolt cost 'hundreds of Galleons', and we assume the minimum that qualifies as 'hundreds' is 3, the G300=?1,500=$2,430. Given a choice between a new car for $24,300 and a new worldclass flying broom for $2,430; I'll take the broom everytime. -end this part- > > > Pip bboy_mn: Just a few random bits I thought I would throw in. bboy_mn From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Mar 3 20:49:27 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 20:49:27 -0000 Subject: Polyjuice!Arabela and other Polydoubts In-Reply-To: <20030303173927.99696.qmail@web14704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53096 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jeanne Blade wrote: If Mrs. Figg was meant to protect Harry, why > wouldn't she just be her normal young self, having > more agility in her reflexes, and better able to do > so? The aging potion cannot have much of a possiility. > Therefore, mrs. Figg is really a little old lady. We don't know if the aging potion makes one feeble, or how the aging process affects wizards. Dumbledore's ability to do magic certainly isn't impaired and the narrative remarks on "his extraordinary strength for one so old and thin" GoFch. 35. Also, a young (and attractive?) woman living on her own in a suburban neighborhood like Privet Drive would attract a lot more attention from snoopy neighbors like Petunia than an elderly widow in the same circumstances. Pippin From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 20:59:06 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 20:59:06 -0000 Subject: Harry's lack of fear (was: Snape/Neville/Trevor) In-Reply-To: <5f.35e2ab8e.2b94cab3@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53097 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, artsylynda at a... wrote: > Snapesangel: > > > you're right to point out that a naturally fearful > > person doing something minor that is a big deal to them is as > > brave as Harry (who seems to have an almost negligent lack of > > scepticsim and fear at times)is when he battles the basilisk or > > various incarnations of Voldemort. > > > > I don't think Harry has a "negligent lack of scepticism and fear" > -- he's scared every time it's appropriate to be scared, and I > think he's skeptical of lots of things. But that little voice in > the back of his head that protects him from the Imperius Curse is > only one of the weapons in Harry's rather impressive arsenal that > helps him keep his head when under pressure. > > ...edited... > > Lynda > * * * > "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA bboy_mn: When this and similar subject come up, I like to remind people that Harry was an abused child, and that abuse creates certain ingrained characteristics. Harry has spend his entire life in fear; fear of Dudley and his gang, fear of Vermon and Petunia, etc..., so he is very skilled at dealing with fear. When you live in an abusive environment you don't express anything; emotions, fear, thoughts, etc... because anything that draws attention to you risk getting you hurt. So, you learn to hold it in, and you compound that lack of expression with a stubborn defiance that refuses to let them see that you are afraid. This also creates an isolated and very introspective person all of which Harry is. It also creates a brave person because everyday of your life becomes a quest for survival. Consequently, you either become strong enough, brave enough, and defiant enough to survive, or the abusive world you live in destroys you. I am amazed at how JKR has created a personality in Harry that so accurately reflect the 'abused child' traits, and how she has equally created a personality that has the strength of character to withstand and overcome this adversity. Even Ron's personality very accurately fits his situation. He is expressive because in a large family you either EXPRESS or you get left behind. A big loving family also gives you an element of safety, and a belief that when necessary there WILL be someone you can turn to. Harry has never had anyone to turn to, so now for the most part, he is a loner. When Fred and George teased Ron, Ron could always turn to Percy for comfort, and when Percy annoyed him, he could turn to Fred & George. When they all three ganged up on him, he could turn to Charlie, and when the whole gang was against him, there was always Molly. Ron expresses himself including his anger, because he grew up in an environment where it was OK, and where there we people who would listen. Hermione is an only child (I'm assuming), and while I won't go into detail, I think that it is also clearly shown in her personality. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From jodel at aol.com Mon Mar 3 21:08:15 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 16:08:15 EST Subject: Snape/Neville/Trevor Message-ID: <10e.1f567e4a.2b951e3f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53098 Now, I've got a different view of all of this issue. I think that the Snape vs. Neville situation IS personal, and that it has nothing to do with memory charms, nothing to do with his parents, and everything to do with Neville himself. We have been told that the older Longbottoms do not recognize their son. Do they not recognize him as a member of their family, or do they not recognize him as being a member of the same species as themselves? Are they mental vegetables, lying in their own little worlds of deep shock where they cannot be reached, or do they no longer recognize themselves as human and have to be kept under sevre Magical restraint? What is Neville's grandmother *thinking* of in dragging him off to St Mungo's to visit these strangers who are determined to remain strangers? Clearly the experience has traumatized the boy. No matter how many assurances he may have been given that his parnts did not do this to themselves, he has come away with the conviction that this is what comes of dealing with Magic. And he wants no part of it. My reading of Neville is that he desperately *wants* to be a Squib. Everything he says includes a reminder that he is "practially a Squib", that he is magically incapable, a veritable waste of space. Everything he has ever been shown to have done magically has been something that might as well have been calculated to give observers the message that he is no good magically, and should be removed from Hogwarts, sent home and permitted to forget about it. That people should just stop trying to force him to be a wizard. He doesn't *want* to be one. Of course the very methods of avoidence Neville uses only serve to point out that his problem is not power, but control. And Snape, for one, sees right through the "act" and it gets right up his nose, with absolutely predictable results. (The big problem here is that Snape is convinced that Neville is being passive-agressive deliberately, while I'm not convinced that it is consious at all.) Neville's absent-mindedness is another issue, mind you. That's genuine enough. The kid is off in his own private little world, inside his head, and things either don't get through in the first place or he checks right back out again and forgets them. As to his sorting, I agree that Gryffindor was the only real possibility, but I suspect that the (very long) time it took to get him sorted was not, as in Harry's case, over any debate as to *which* House, as to get the kid resigned to going into *any* House. Let's look at the choices, shall we? Slytherin? It is to laugh. If ever there was a child with abosluely *no* wizardly ambition, Neville is that child. This wasn't even on the menu. Ravenclaw? Hardly, Neville is well within "normal" IQ range, but he lacks the sort of mental quickness which is all that would keep him from being effectively trampled by his housemates in Ravenclaw. Despite the fact that the "Claws are probably the most determined individualists of all the Houses, they're a competitive lot with it, and it's everyone for himself. Neville's "duffer" routine would cut no ice in Ravenclaw. Hufflepuff? No, again. This is "group think" territory, here. The Hufflepuff motto is "nobody left behind", but that only applies if you do your part for the rest of the "team". The Hufflepuffs move at the speed of their weakest member, which is why they rarely get the glory. But they always finish the course. The 'Puffs have no tolerance for the sort of "odd duck" that Neville is. And they have a nasty habit of ganging up on outsiders, slackers, or people who deliberately let their side down. For his own sake, it's a damn good thing that Neville is *not* in Hufflepuff. So what real possibility was there ever, but Gryffindor? (He'd probably trade places with Harry in a heartbeat so long as he could *stay* with the Dursleys and attend the local comprehensive.) I'll admit that I'm finding Neville a bit of a puzzle once I step back and try to sort him out. He's clearly cowed by adults, particulary older or agressive adults - which, given his upbringing is certainly one direction such things might reasonably have been expected to go - but he seems to not be at all fazed by kids his own age. I'm almost beginning to think that the only reason we haven't seen him flareing back at Malfoy & Co. more than we have is his aversion to situations where he might be forced to have to do magic, plus the fact that he doesn't like being hit any more than the next kid, and you rarely find Malfoy without his goons in attendence. At that, Neville's thrown a punch at them at least once. On a related flip side of the social issue, he didn't hesitate to stand up to the trio, and he was not only the first of Harry's year mates (that we heard of) to actually screw up his courage and ask a girl to the Yule Ball, he had the good sense to ask someone he considers a friend, rather than getting distracted by the (frankly barbaric) Weasley equation of trying to find the best looking girl who might actually accept him. And when the one he asked turned him down, had the traditional well-bred-young-gentleman-at-dancing-school manners to transfer the invitation the female friend that she was standing next to. We may not know much about the Longbottom socio/economic background, but Neville's Gran clearly values traditional standards of behavior. And he's shown us no sign of finding them a burden. Can you even imagine the level of Weasley whinge should anyone try to hold Ron to that kind of standard? Neville clearly wants to be a "good" wizard, but I'm far less convinced that he values the idea of being being a good "wizard". (It's beginning to look to me as if it may be Neville who is the real flip side to the Malfoy's prominent pureblood coin, rather than Ron and his siblings. At least in the "two Houses alike in digity" sweeps.) And, yes, Neville *does* go through *all* the motions of "trying" to do well. Yet, every time he opens his mouth, he reminds people of what a bundle of incompetence he is as a wizard. He might just as well be saying "Look at what a duffer I am. Can I go home now?" It might even be significant that the only class he relaxes and does his best in, without sabotaging his own efforts is Herbology, which probably requires the least active use of Magic in its performance. (Not much absent-mindedness on display in the greenhouses, either, I suspect! Although, admittedly, plants do tend to just sit there until you remember what it was you were doing.) I contend that he probably isn't deliberately, repeatedly, shooting himself in the foot. But he pretty clearly wants to be let off the hook of Magic use altogether. I'm now beginning to wonder if, after trying for four years straight to get himself sent home for some reason that he publically "can't help", he is going to finally hit his own wall and have to really face face the fact that he *is* a wizard, his magic is not going to go away, he can't supress it the way he did as a tiny tot, and that if he and the people he cares about are going to survive, he had damned well better get control of it. And in the meantime, we should hardly be surprised that Snape, who sees just about all of the same evidence we do, and ascribes the worst possible motives to it, should be driven batty by Neville's whole "duffer" act and be determined to take it out of Neville's hide. As to Trevor. I can't think of any significance he plays, apart from underscoring Nevill'e "odd duck" status. Unless someone decides to toadnap him to hatch out another Basilisk. _JOdel From karenkyla3 at aol.com Mon Mar 3 21:04:03 2003 From: karenkyla3 at aol.com (karenkyla3 ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 21:04:03 -0000 Subject: Clash of Heirs Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53099 Okay, so I need some help fleshing out a theory. In the Chamber of Secrets we find out that Voldemort is the heir of Slytherin. Salazar was pushed out originally by Godric, Helga, and Rowena. Is it possible that we may have a drawing of the three? That is, the three decendents of Godric, Helga, and Rowena? Now, their is a decent amount of evidence that Harry is the heir of Gryffindor (living in Godric's Hollow, pulling out Godric's sword in the chamber, etc.) Any thoughts as to the other two? It's interesting that Hermione embodies many of the ideals of Ravenclaw and Ron many of the ideals of Hufflepuff. However I would suspect that their placement in Gryffindor would indicate that they are not the heirs. Though it would add a great nuance to the triumverate. This is of course just postulating... Stacey From probono at rapidnet.com Mon Mar 3 21:33:38 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 21:33:38 -0000 Subject: "Silly Little Girl" (was The Potters) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53100 Greicy wrote: > > What's the deal with this comment "silly little girl". It's been > used consistantly to "describe" Hermione and to shut her up, but it > has been used with Lily as well. Could it be possible that Hermione > is a reflection of Lily, personality wise? Involving herself in > things she ought not. In PS/SS, we know that Petunia says that Lily > became involved with that "Potter" and got herself blown up. What > else could Lily have possibly gotten herself involved in that > she "shouldn't have"? Was she a smartypants that drove the Marauders > up the wall, like Hermione usually does to Harry and Ron? > > Greicy Me: Ooooooh! I'm so glad somebody brought this up. The constant repetition of this particular phrase {mostly in regard to Hermione (and of course, Lily), although Riddle uses a slightly different version in reference to Ginny - "silly problems of an eleven year old girl."}, has always intrigued me. I like your theory of Hermione being a reflection of Lily, it could make H/Hr shippers happy at any rate! -Tanya From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Mon Mar 3 21:34:44 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 16:34:44 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: book 7: back to the future theory Message-ID: <146.be06402.2b952474@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53101 Well...why does it have to be a Time Turner? Everyone keeps bringing up the canon point that the Time Turner is dangerous, etc., etc.. It doesn't say that there is no other way to travel through time, correct? It could be a trifle unethical (requiring some questionable supplies) or extremely advanced, or ancient magic. There *could* be another way. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 21:49:56 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 21:49:56 -0000 Subject: book 7: back to the future theory In-Reply-To: <146.be06402.2b952474@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53102 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > Well...why does it have to be a Time Turner? Everyone keeps > bringing up the canon point that the Time Turner is dangerous, > etc., etc.. It doesn't say that there is no other way to travel > through time, correct? It could be a trifle unethical (requiring > some questionable supplies) or extremely advanced, or ancient magic. > There *could* be another way. > > ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ bboy_mn: Oh, you are absolutely right, there are certainly many ways to time travel. I suspect the Time Turner is a very minor way to time travel. It is meant to move you backward as we have seen, and possibly forward, which we haven't seen, in time in increments of one hour. How many times do you have to turn it over to backup in time 50 years in increments/turns of an hour each. So without a doubt, you do not make great leaps in time using a time turner. Logically, if time travel is possible, then you use some other method of large jumps in time. BUT the method does not change the ethics. It doesn't matter what device you use to kill someone, it is still unethical, and it doesn't matter what device you use to time travel, substantially altering time can have cataclysmic consequences; universal cataclysmic consequneces. Ethics aren't related to method. bboy_mn From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 3 21:55:18 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 21:55:18 -0000 Subject: Harry's Big Money Gift.... & more on money In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53103 > > > Pip: > > Cedric still touched the Triwizard cup at the same > > time as Harry; Harry should *never* have been given the full > > thousand. The prize should have been split. > > > > bboy_MN: > Agreed, officially they tied so they share the Cup and the prize > money, but Cedric is no longer around. So that leaves Harry. > -end this part- No it doesn't. If someone wins, and then drops dead (effectively what happens to Cedric), they don't award the prize to the runner up. This has occasionally happened in the UK; what generally happens is that it's announced that the winner of the competition has died and their prize is awarded posthumously. A member of the family or a close friend will then accept it on their behalf. Prizes are only given to the person who placed second if the person who placed first is disqualified. Death is not a disqualification (I concede that this may be different in other countries). > > Pip: > > I doubt the Diggory's would ever have wanted the money, > > ...edited... > > the only people he's tried to give the money away to are the > >people who have a moral claim to it, *or* the people who he's > > just found out were cheated out of their savings. > > > > bboy_mn: > I also doubt that the Diggory's would want the money, they would be > just as uncomfortable as Harry at gaining something from Cedric's death. > > As someone else pointed out, Harry offerred to return the money to > the Ministry; he tried to refuse to take it. Then he offerred it to anyone > in the room who wanted it. Then he offerred it to the Diggory's who > refused, and finally to Fred and George. > -end this part- I'm getting lost here [grin]. The way I read it is - Fudge drops the money on Harry's bed and then stomps out without Harry having a chance to say anything.[GoF Ch. 36, p616 UK paperback] Molly Weasley tries to cheer Harry up by telling him to think what he can do with his prize money. Harry replies by saying miserably 'I don't want that gold. You have it. Anyone can have it. I shouldn't have won it. It should have been Cedric's.' [GoF Ch36, p. 619] I don't 'read' this as Harry genuinely telling Molly to take the money. It's a rhetorical statement; Harry's saying that he really, really, *really* doesn't want this money. It isn't his money. It's Cedric's money. Then the next mention is when Harry tries to give the money to the Diggorys [GoF Ch. 37, p. 621] and then the final mention of the money is when he gives it to the Twins [GoF Ch. 37 p. 635] > > Pip: > > Yup. I'd be hesitant if a fourteen year old offered me a > > thousand quid as a gift. One thousand galleons is probably more > > like, say, fifteen thousand quid? 20,000 dollars? > > > > bboy_mn: > Sorry to be a nit picking jerk but G1,000 = ?5,000 = $8,100 (at > current exchange rates). Generally to estimate conversion between > currency, I use 1:5:7. The G1:?5 was given by JKR in an interview. > The ?5:$7 constantly fluctuates with currencies exchange rates. As > anadditional reference point, 1 Sickle is about 47 cents (US at > current rates), and 1 Knut is about 1.6 cents. (1G=17S=493K) I thought I was exaggerating rather wildly [grin]. OK, the thousand Galleons is about 5000 GBP, which is still a lot of money. > > The twins originally bet about G38 (37G.15S.3K) on th World Cup, or > ?190 or $308 (multiply ? x 1.62). Bagman said he would give them > good odds, but even at 10:1 they wouldn't have come close to the > amount Harry gave them. To Fred and George Weasley, $308 IS a > small fortune. By the same token, $8,100 is a big fortune. Ummm... we don't get told the exact odds Bagman gives the boys, but he does say that he thinks they haven't a chance, which to me sounds like the equivalent of at least a fifty to one outsider. Ten to one bets come in all the time (about once in every ten times :-) ), and you wouldn't normally say 'no chance' if you were offering odds of 10 to 1. A fifty to one bet would give them about 1700 Galleons. Even odds of 20 to 1 would still net them 800 Galleons (when their original stake is included). > > Also, Bagman gave Fred and George G5 for the trick wand; > G5=?25=$40;pretty generous I would say, although, he only added > that G5 to their bet, so it's likely that he thought he would > never have to pay. Agreed. He's a lousy bookie. A good one would have promptly tried to offset that bet with someone else, just in case it did come in. > > I do not think the sanction has been officially lifted and Hagrid > hasn't been officially allowed to work toward his GOED (General Owl > Equivalancy Diploma). My own nitpick - the exams taken in muggle Britain, which seem pretty equivalent to the OWLs and NEWTs taken at Hogwarts, are public exams administered at a national level. That is to say, the OWLs or NEWTs would not be graded by Hogwarts teachers but by outside examiners. They are assessed against a national base. Since wherever you take the exam it's likely to be graded by the same set of examiners, there is no Graduate Equivalency Diploma in the UK. A muggle 'A' level is a muggle 'A' level whether you take it at school, from a night class, from correspondence courses or from the deck of a navy ship on active service (with an officer certifying that you took it under exam conditions). There's no canon to say whether or not OWLs and NEWTs can be taken only at Hogwarts, but JKR *seems* to be considering them as equivalent in their importance to jobs, future prospects etcetera. If they are equivalent, Hagrid (or any other wizard) should be able to take them outside Hogwarts if they wanted to. Hagrid may not want to. He is, after all, eminently qualified for and very good at his job as Keeper of the Keys and Grounds. There doesn't seem to be a Wizarding College of Education, so the only way he's going to learn to teach is by actually doing it. At 60 odd years old, well regarded by both staff and former pupils, he may not actually *need* NEWTs and OWLs. Pip From karenwickersham at ameritech.net Mon Mar 3 22:05:43 2003 From: karenwickersham at ameritech.net (karywick ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 22:05:43 -0000 Subject: Polyjuice!Arabela and other Polydoubts In-Reply-To: <20030303153418.28704.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53104 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Morgan D." wrote: > > > In PS/CS ch 2, Harry describes Mrs Figg as "a mad old lady who lived > two streets away", and he says her "whole house smelled of cabbage". In > CoS ch 12, Harry drinks Polyjuice Potion and thinks "it tasted like > overcooked cabbage". That was enough to convince many readers that > Arabella isn't an old lady at all. > > But Polyjuice Potion isn't a tool for simple shape-shifting. It gives > the drinker the appearance of someone else. So if Arabella isn't the > old lady described by Harry, there IS some old lady that looks like > that somewhere. Where is she? > (big snip) I have a hard time going with all that polyjuice for such a long time just to impersonate an older person - I'd go with the later reply (orry I can't remember after reading so many who said it.) - just use an agining potion whenever you expect to see Harry which I'm sure wasn't very often. Instead I have another theory. What if Arabella is one of those 7 registered animagi (pl?). Thre's no reason Hermione would have known of her name when she read the 7 names back in CoS (I think, but I'm not sure of the exact book). There's really no way she would have known Harry's babysitter's name or remembered it years later when Dumbledore said in GoF to gather the old crowd. Turning into one of her many cats would have been a great way to go undercover when she needed to see what was going on with Harry or to keep an eye on Harry when he was outside of the Dursley's house. Does anyone else have any opinion on this? Kary From ggershman77 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 22:07:31 2003 From: ggershman77 at yahoo.com (ggershman77 ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 22:07:31 -0000 Subject: Harry Lists D.E. & Malfoy (Re: Clues in GoF) In-Reply-To: <20030303171128.73001.qmail@web10704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53105 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SeventhSqueal wrote: > This is a continuation of Gina and ggershman77's > exploration of Harry's rattling off of Deatheaters > names that he witnessed at the DE Summoning in the > graveyard at the end of GoF. > > Harry is recuperating in the infirmary and the > Weasley's, Fudge, Dumbledore and Snape are all there > around him listening to him recount his traumatic > experience. During Harry's story, Fudge keeps > interjecting with his comments about the lack of > reliability of the story. Preposterous! Fudge is in > complete denial and a state of shock that Voldemort > has returned and acts like someone for whom > Voldemort's return severely compromises him, > personally or politically or both. > > Then there is the passage where Harry names Lucius > Malfoy and Snape twitches and his eyes fly over to > Fudge probably to check out Fudge's reaction to > Harry's news. IMO what might have happened there if > one assumes that Snape and Malfoy are in cahoots is > this: > We see from the text in GoF that Fudge and Malfoy are > developing some kind of relationship. One example is > that Fudge gets the Malfoys great seats to the > Quidditch World Cup because Lucius has given a sum of > money to St. Mungo's. (To guarantee the continued > containment and ill health of the Longbottoms? Maybe.) > Lucius is working on Fudge. He's using the Minister of > Magic to further his own agenda. I suspect that what > Fudge has done or is doing for Lucius can be outed by > the resurrection of Voldemort. I also suggest that > Fudge thinks that Malfoy is genuinely innocent of > having been a Deatheater. So for him to hear that > Voldemort is back, and that the guy he's been helping > or perhaps taking bribes from could make him an > accessory and compromise him professionally. Perhaps > Malfoy assured Fudge that Voldemort is a non-issue he > could never come back. > > Snape knows that Malfoy has been working on Fudge. He > is upset that Fudge now knows that Malfoy went back to > Voldemort earlier that night. Fudge doesn't know that > Snape and Malfoy are working together. Snape knows > that Voldemort's resurrection is bad news for Fudge. > But it is in Malfoy and Snape's best interests for > Fudge to commit the resources of the ministry towards > fighting off the resurrected Voldemort. They want > Voldemort out of the way, as well as wanting to > distract the entire MoM with Voldemort hysteria. Snape > tries to break through Fudge's denial by *cough* > baring his flesh and explaining the Dark Mark as proof > of Voldemort's resurrection. (BTW Fudge and the rest > of the WW might know about the Dark Marks they > probably were made common knowledge during the DE > trials, but it's been what? 13 years and details like > that can fade in memory.) I have speculated in the past (See http://hpprogs.blogspot.com/2002_09_08_hpprogs_archive.html#81473766 for more) that Lucius, while idealogically a disciple of Salazar Slytherin, would have much to lose if Voldemort returns. I am not sure that your theory works, though, since, if Fudge had what to lose by being exposed as collaborating with Malfoy, a DE, he would then go into anti-Voldemort overdrive in a hurry. I also, for some reason, dont see Snape collaborating with Malfoy on anything that is outside the realm of Dumbledore - Dumbledore is the only thing that kept Snape from the Dementors. More likely, I think, is that Snape thought that Lucius was a benign entity, that he could be trusted, at least that he was not allied with Voldemort. Now he finds out that he is, and this compromises him in some way. I will have to think more about this, but good ideas! Greg Harry Potter Prognostications - http://hpprogs.blogspot.com From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Mar 3 22:46:16 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 22:46:16 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Clash of Heirs References: Message-ID: <3E63DB38.000004.39131@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 53106 Stacey wrote - Okay, so I need some help fleshing out a theory. In the Chamber of Secrets we find out that Voldemort is the heir of Slytherin. Salazar was pushed out originally by Godric, Helga, and Rowena. Is it possible that we may have a drawing of the three? That is, the three decendents of Godric, Helga, and Rowena? Now, their is a decent amount of evidence that Harry is the heir of Gryffindor (living in Godric's Hollow, pulling out Godric's sword in the chamber, etc.) Any thoughts as to the other two? It's interesting that Hermione embodies many of the ideals of Ravenclaw and Ron many of the ideals of Hufflepuff. However I would suspect that their placement in Gryffindor would indicate that they are not the heirs. Though it would add a great nuance to the triumverate. This is of course just postulating... Now me - I don't know whether there's been any significant amount of study about the idea of heirs in the WW - there could have been. It would after all be a sensible idea since there was a prophecy floating around about the CoS being opened by the Heir. But if there has been a reasonable amount of research done by scholars then either it's not common knowledge *or* which House you are in is not necessarily important to whose heir you are. Why do I say this? Well until the grand finale of CoS the staff and/or students have accused two different people of being the 'Heir of Slytherin' - Hagrid (who was after all expelled for opening the CoS and releasing the monster within) and Harry (while there was circumstantial evidence for it being Harry you'd think at least *some* of the students would have wondered if maybe a Slytherin was trying to frame him, especially if the house had any bearing on the heirs) both of whom are Gryffindors. Surely if the house was at all important as a clue to who is the heir of whom then the *least* likely house for the Heir of Slytherin to be in is the house of the person who reputedly drove Slytherin from the school in the first place. I quite like your theory of the heirs and agree that there has been quite a bit of circumstantial evidence that Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor - although imho it's no more convincing than the circumstantial evidence that led the student body to believe that he was the heir of Slytherin, so maybe JKR is paralleling the way the students were fooled into believing that Harry was the Heir of Slytherin by fooling her readers into jumping to the conclusion that Harry is the heir of Gryffindor. Personally I would be happier making Ron the Heir of Gryffindor. If courage is the biggest defining characteristic of Gryffindor then I truly believe Ron is the bravest of the trio. Harry doesn't usually seem to really recognize how much danger he is in till after the event and I don't believe you can claim to be brave without experiencing fear. Ron strikes me as the true hero of PS because he willingly sacrifices himself for his friends. Also in CoS he faces something he is terrified of in order to help Harry and Hagrid. But then I may well be biased because Ron is one of my favourite characters. K From persephone_kore at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 23:14:39 2003 From: persephone_kore at yahoo.com (persephone_kore ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 23:14:39 -0000 Subject: Late Start to Magical Education (Was: Re: WQ) In-Reply-To: <001d01c2e0eb$d0a97ca0$dd4d6551@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53107 Manawydan wrote: > Canon doesn't really help us with what happens to WW children before > the age of 11. One interesting point is that although WW children > will have grown up in an environment where magical methods for doing > everything are the norm, the muggle raised students don't seem to > have any problem keeping up with the wizard born, even though > absolutely all the concepts are totally new to them. I'm not sure > why this should be. I (Persephone) reply: >From a literary sense, I'm inclined to think that this is an effort to avoid giving the anti-Muggleborn crowd ammunition. >From within the universe, I still have theories, of course.... There is the interesting but rather unlikely possibility that given their ability to keep up without any prior experience, Muggle-born wizards and witches are in fact superior to the witch-born, at least in the sense of being mentally quicker and more flexible. Counter to this is the fact that Harry is in fact born to a witch and wizard, but Muggle-raised, and also keeps up decently well. This, however, would merely require moving the argument over to some sort of advantage to being *raised* Muggle -- perhaps wizard-raised children tend to be complacent about magic? Take it for granted, much as some (most?) of us do electronics and so on? I'm inclined to doubt my own proposals above, however, as they seem rather shaky. Instead, I find the following line of reasoning somewhat more plausible.... Obviously Ron's assertion that everyone will be at the same level, starting out, is not *strictly* true in all respects. He has experience with living in the wizarding world for eleven years. Fred turned Ron's teddy into a spider when he was what, six? Hermione, on the other hand, has read through all her textbooks, and this appears to be an impressive, even intimidating level of preparation even to people who have been living around magic all their lives; it also seems to work fairly well for her in terms of academic success. Snape impressed and alarmed his classmates by arriving for his first year with an extensive knowledge of curses. I'm inclined to think that what Ron's statement actually reflects, therefore, is that Hogwarts's curriculum is set up for people who are starting magic at the very beginning. They might be assumed to have thought of its existence, even if they didn't believe in it, but the classes start with the basics, with no prior knowledge assumed (except for Snape's, perhaps, and it appears that his questions can be answered adequately based on the first-year textbooks). How to hold a broomstick, even if you've been flying for years. Correct wand-motion. Two things based on this: 1. Arguably, Hogwarts caters to Muggle-borns. No matter what a student has had the chance to learn ahead of time, everyone starts at the beginning. This is useful in terms of being sure that *everyone* knows what you want them to, but one might imagine that unless it's somehow impossible to control magic adequately before around age eleven then a school made up entirely of children with magical parents might start a little further along. As it is, students from magical families have an advantage in that whatever they do know (unless they learned it another way and the school insists on their breaking the habit) should be easier -- but they still have to do the work, and it seems intended that with enough practice one should be able to go from no experience whatsoever to at least the ability to meet passing criteria, at best to excellence in the same time-frame. (Granted, I am basing this on the fact that students have *done* this -- even if they are exceptional ones such as Hermione Granger or Tom Riddle -- and that it seems likelier, in my mind, that it is supposed to be possible than that they are unpredicted flukes and Muggle-raised students are expected to flunk!) Then again... it's not as if it's impossible for the children of literate or numerate parents to teach them reading and arithmetic before age four or six, and I understand learning to read is still on kindergarten curricula. There would certainly be justifications for beginning at the beginning even without the presence of Muggle-borns who would otherwise need, in essence, remedial work. I'm inclined to think that starting further along and assigning remedial work is regarded a less palatable option due in part to the likelihood that certain parties would look down on them for having an excellent reason to need to catch up. 2. Most children born to magical parents do not actually receive magical education prior to coming to Hogwarts. Some do, clearly. Equally clearly, they tend to have more experience with being around magic -- though since, to them, this is How the World Works it is possible (though not directly supported, that I can recall) that they may not really have thought about just *how* one uses magic to accomplish various things. They're still officially restricted from performing underage magic, though this appears to be given rather limited enforcement -- I'm inclined to suspect that it's intended primarily as a security measure against Muggles' learning things. Still, if Fred and George are being sent home with letters about it, it's at least supposed to apply to them in theory. The child poking a slug with his daddy's wand is scolded and has it taken away. To me, nearly all the evidence suggests that the expected thing is for parents to leave actually *teaching* magic (as opposed to general awareness of it) to Hogwarts -- I imagine the rationale goes something along the lines of, "After all, it's there and the children have to start at the beginning anyway... and it isn't *safe* for someone so young to be practicing. Much better to wait until they're *there* and all their practice can be supervised by people who are trained for it." Kids with a good deal of initiative who live in a magical family, like the twins and perhaps Snape, might be able to get away with indulging their curiosity and practicing ahead of time -- if their parents approve or at least don't catch them, perhaps there would be no consequences, as magic is expected at their household and thus their experimentation could in theory be camouflaged. Persephone From duchessmadeleine at yahoo.ca Mon Mar 3 23:17:27 2003 From: duchessmadeleine at yahoo.ca (Madeleine) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 18:17:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Kneazel? In-Reply-To: <3E63DB38.000004.39131@monica> Message-ID: <20030303231727.28983.qmail@web12203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53108 I was doing the quizzes at BBC Newsround and one of the answers said that Crookshanks was so intelligent because he is part Kneazel. What is a Kneazel? "Madeleine" From heidit at netbox.com Mon Mar 3 23:28:27 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 18:28:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Kneazel? In-Reply-To: <20030303231727.28983.qmail@web12203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00a001c2e1dc$981ac0a0$9865fea9@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 53109 > Real-To: Madeleine > > I was doing the quizzes at BBC Newsround and one of the > answers said that Crookshanks was so intelligent because he > is part Kneazel. > > What is a Kneazel? I recommend taking at look at the Lexicon, specifically the Kneazle definition, which is located here: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/bestiary_h-m.html#Kneazle And to make this more than a one liner, I'll lead into reviving an old topic: Does the fact that Crookshanks doesn't react negatively to Draco indicate that he is neither unsavory nor suspicious, and if so, what does that mean for his character and characterization in future books? Heidi Nimbus - 2003 Sponsorship Chaser http://www.hp2003.org From michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 3 23:28:22 2003 From: michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk (Michelle Apostolides) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 23:28:22 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Kneazel? In-Reply-To: <20030303231727.28983.qmail@web12203.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3E63DB38.000004.39131@monica> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030303232727.021065f0@mail.ukf.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53110 At 23:17 03/03/2003, you wrote: >I was doing the quizzes at BBC Newsround and one of the answers said that >Crookshanks was so intelligent because he is part Kneazel. > >What is a Kneazel? You need to read Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find them. Michelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 00:38:07 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 16:38:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Harry's Big Money Gift.... & more on money In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030304003807.44650.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53111 --- Pip wrote: > No it doesn't. If someone wins, and then drops dead (effectively > what happens to Cedric), they don't award the prize to the runner > up. This has occasionally happened in the UK; what generally happens > is that it's announced that the winner of the competition has died > and their prize is awarded posthumously. A member of the family or a > close friend will then accept it on their behalf. Yes, but this isn't a case of Harry being the runner-up. It was a tie. They both touched the Cup at the exact same time, regardless of circumstances before or after, so therefore it was a tie. It's not terribly unusual in the case of a tie where one winner dies to award the entire prize to the surviving winner, especially in this case where Cedric's heirs (his parents) seemed to agree that Harry should keep the money. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From artsylynda at aol.com Tue Mar 4 00:46:36 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (Lynda Sappington ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 00:46:36 -0000 Subject: Harry the Seer (WAS:Crystal ball) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53112 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erisedstraeh2002 " wrote: *snip* > > IMO, the above examples support the "Harry as Heir of Gryffindor" > theory because the real St. Godric had the gift of prophecy and the > ability to know of events occurring hundreds or thousands of miles > away. > > ~Phyllis Where did you read this? I must have missed it if it's in canon. Something else I apparently missed is the "meaning" or "abilities" of the various things inside wands, which was mentioned in someone else's post the other day (sorry, I didn't think to reply to that one at the time, but it's been nagging at me ever since I read that post). I'd love to read that stuff -- please "Point Me" or send me a niffler that can find them! Thanks! Lynda From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 00:54:32 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 00:54:32 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Karkaroff out Lucius Malfoy? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53113 Hey all, I've been thinking about the whole trial bit post the first fall of Lord Voldemort, and I haven't been able to connect something to my own liking, so I figured I'd see what y'all think. "Father actually considered sending me to Durmstrang rather than Hogwarts, you know. He knows the headmaster, you see." (GoF, US hardcover, Ch.11, 165) "Karkaroff got released?" "He did a deal with the Ministry of Magic," said Sirius bitterly. "He said he'd seen the error of his ways, and then he named names... he put a load of other people into Azkaban in his place... He's not very popular in there, I can tell you." (GoF, US hardcover, Ch.19, 332) And then we have Karkaroff's naming of the names in Ch.30. He gives the Council Antonin Dolohov, Evan Rosier, Travers, Mulciber, Augustus Rookwood, and Snape. But, despite the fact that Karkaroff points out that only Lord Voldemort knew the names of all of the Death Eaters (Ch.30, 588), we also know that Lucius Malfoy and Karkaroff know each other. And since they knew each other I figure that that's a) because they attended Hogwarts together, b) because they were both Death Eaters together, or c) both. I find it hard to believe that Karkaroff wouldn't know that Lucius was a Death Eater. I mean, sure, it's possible, but given that they know each other, I still find it hard to believe. So, why wouldn't Karkaroff out Malfoy to save his own neck? -Tom From artsylynda at aol.com Tue Mar 4 00:59:47 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (Lynda Sappington ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 00:59:47 -0000 Subject: Harry's lack of fear (was: Snape/Neville/Trevor) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53114 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, artsylynda at a... wrote: > > Snapesangel: > > > > > you're right to point out that a naturally fearful > > > person doing something minor that is a big deal to them is as > > > brave as Harry *snip* > > > > I don't think Harry has a "negligent lack of scepticism and fear" > > -- he's scared every time it's appropriate to be scared, and I > > think he's skeptical of lots of things. But that little voice in > > the back of his head that protects him from the Imperius Curse is > > only one of the weapons in Harry's rather impressive arsenal that > > helps him keep his head when under pressure. > > > > ...edited... > > > > Lynda > > * * * > > > bboy_mn: > > *snip*> > I am amazed at how JKR has created a personality in Harry that so > accurately reflect the 'abused child' traits, and how she has equally > created a personality that has the strength of character to withstand > and overcome this adversity. > > Even Ron's personality very accurately fits his situation. He is > expressive because in a large family you either EXPRESS or you get > left behind. A big loving family also gives you an element of safety, > and a belief that when necessary there WILL be someone you can turn > to. Harry has never had anyone to turn to, so now for the most part, > he is a loner. When Fred and George teased Ron, Ron could always turn > to Percy for comfort, and when Percy annoyed him, he could turn to > Fred & George. When they all three ganged up on him, he could turn to > Charlie, and when the whole gang was against him, there was always > Molly. Ron expresses himself including his anger, because he grew up > in an environment where it was OK, and where there we people who would > listen. > > Hermione is an only child (I'm assuming), and while I won't go into > detail, I think that it is also clearly shown in her personality. > > Just a few thoughts. > > bboy_mn Well said! I have thought several times how *obvious* it is that Ron is a middle child in a big family and Hermione and Harry are both "only children" (as far as we know, anyway). Hermione has the self-confidence and maturity of the only child of parents who encouraged her every step of the way. Ron has the combativeness middle children often acquire in their efforts to be noticed. And Harry -- yes, he has the courage the best abused children develop -- those who don't acquire that resolute courage and stamina don't manage to overcome their backgrounds. Good post, bboy_mn! From urbana at charter.net Tue Mar 4 01:14:30 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 01:14:30 -0000 Subject: Harry's lack of fear (was: Snape/Neville/Trevor) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53115 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Sappington " wrote: >> Well said! I have thought several times how *obvious* it is that Ron > is a middle child in a big family and Hermione and Harry are > both "only children" (as far as we know, anyway). Harry is an only child (AFAWK) in terms of being Lily & James' only child. But *functionally* he is more like the second child in a family in which only the first child matters and was wanted. Actually Harry's upbringing has been even worse than that - he's really treated almost like Cinder(f)ella. It's surprising that Petunia doesn't have him re-weaving the rugs when they develop holes and cleaning out the coal scuttle daily. > Hermione has the > self-confidence and maturity of the only child of parents who > encouraged her every step of the way. We don't actually *know* that Hermione is an only... we can only surmise it due to her behavior. When are we going to find out more about Hermione's family??! I'm dying to know more about how Hermione became herself. I hope JKR tells us more about them in OoP. It would be quite interesting if our assumptions about Hermione's family turned out to be off base... > Harry -- yes, he has the courage the best abused children develop -- > those who don't acquire that resolute courage and stamina don't > manage to overcome their backgrounds. Harry is a good example of the saying, "That which doesn't kill us makes us stronger." Anne U (who recognizes a bit of Hermione (know-it-all-ness) and Ron (middle child struggling to be heard in a large, noisy family) in herself:-) From lilpurplealdy at netscape.net Tue Mar 4 01:44:05 2003 From: lilpurplealdy at netscape.net (Juliet ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 01:44:05 -0000 Subject: James Potter- Prefect/Head Boy??(WAS: "Silly Little Girl" ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53116 Olivia Grey: >>How James found the time to run around with the Maruders, play Quidditch, become prefect and Head Boy,learn to become an Animagus, antagonize and be antagonized by Snape,court Lily, and still be able to graduate is beyond me. I can't even return my library books on time.>> What's this? Sorry if I'm nitpicking, but Harry's dad, Head Boy and a Prefect? Is this canon/JKR stated anywhere(and I'm just behind the times..if so, my apologies!), just a personal theory of your's, or did you just get caught up in listing things? ~Aldrea, politely puzzled and deciding to start reading JKR interview. From lilpurplealdy at netscape.net Tue Mar 4 01:46:32 2003 From: lilpurplealdy at netscape.net (Juliet ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 01:46:32 -0000 Subject: JKR Quote Mentioned In--Re: Foreshadowing clues in CoS In-Reply-To: <7E15BDD7.0942DBAC.0290C41F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53117 Katey: >>Rowling also said that the teachers' love lives were off-limits (not the exact wording, I know).>> Aww...really? Does that mean we won't be learning about ANY of the teacher's (secret) love lives? Lol, kinda makes a lot of that theorizing feel so wasted... Ah, I think I really need to start reading some JKR interviews, so I stop pestering you guys with (dumb) questions. ~Aldrea, apologizing for any inconvenience. From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 23:34:09 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop ) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 23:34:09 -0000 Subject: book 7: back to the future theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53118 Tanya wrote: "My theory is that Harry is actually "the stranger. The teenage boy, dark-haired and pale" that Frank Bryce sees on the day of the Riddle Murders." "If Harry, on the other hand, were to use the time-turner in his 5th or 6th year, he would not yet be able to apparate. He'd have to break into the Riddle house, using traditional methods (handy-dandy multi- purpose pen-knife, anyone)?" "Why would Harry go-back in time to this particular event? Riddle killing his family could be more important than we know yet. Perhaps Harry is trying to stop it." Now me: Hello all, Fred Waldrop here. When I read what Tanya said, I couldn't help but wonder about that "twinkle" in Dumbledore's eyes as Harry tells him his story of how Voldemort has returned in GoF. Now we all know that for V to come back, he needs 3 things, in reverse order to make a point:(chap.22 US, page641-642) 3)"Blood of the enemy....forcibly taken....you will....resurrect your foe" 2)Flesh of the servant - willingly given - you will - revive - your master" 1)Bone of the father, unknowingly given, you will renew your son" Did you catch it? "UNKNOWINGLY GIVEN"? What would happen if before he Mr Riddle, the father, knew his son was coming back for the bone? Well, it is no longer "unknown" if the person knows about it in advance, is it? And, Harry really doesn't have to change anything, have to worry about having the future altered in any way by doing this. And this would sort of help Stacy out. Stacy writes: "I don't want to be the wet blanket theory here because I really am intrigued by Tanya's idea especially that there may be clues in the past that Harry has gone back and changed very specific things, but as far as killing Voldemort off in the past I am skeptical. First of all, plot-wise it's a cop-out way to solve the problem of Voldemort. Secondly, canon states that the time-turner can only be used for specific purposes with finite results. (Hermione tells Harry that they can't save Sirius because they don't know what chain of events that would set into motion, they must only do as Dumbledore asks for which they already have clues of what has been done.)" Me again; With my theory, you do have a very specific thing happening, "go tell Mr. Riddle that his son, Tom, is going to use your bones in a spell after he is dead". Then, leave. Nothing harmed, no time line changed, Voldemort wouldn't know about it, and the spell would be done wrong. And, as I said in the beginning of my statement, it would also explain the twinkle in Dumbledore's eyes after seeing the cut on Harry's arm. Because, I'm sure he knows exactly how that spell works, and when he is sure of which spell it is, he has an extremely odd thought. "What if Harry can change one thing in the events that preceded all of this? What if Harry goes back before 'V' kills Mr Riddle, and told him of the coming situation? Could this act, would this act, change things still to come?" And that, IMO, is what the "twinkle" was, an idea. Fred Waldrop From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Mon Mar 3 23:36:17 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 17:36:17 -0600 Subject: Teaching Hagrid (was Hagrid: Allowed to use Wands and Magic...?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53119 Ginger writes, "If it was a school punishment, then I can see Dumbledore allowing him to pick up his education where he left off, perhaps on summer breaks with the help of the teachers. With a brand new wand, of course." I reply: I was just thinking of something like this; what if Hagrid were to audit some fourth year classes with the general student population? I get the funniest picture when I think of it: Lavender: Err... Professor Flitwick? Flitwick: Yes, Miss Brown? Lavender: What's the Care of Magical Creatures teacher doing in Charms class? Flitwick: He's here to learn the spells and charms he will need in the future, the same as you. Student: OK. May I ask one more question? Flitwick: Go on. Lavender: Where will the rest of us sit? Hagrid's sitting on all our desks! Hagrid: Oops, sorry. Place seems a lot smaller than it used ter be. And just imagine if one of Neville's banishment charms accidentally hit Hagrid! They'd have to rebuild half the castle from the impact! Hobbit-guy, who's laughing at the possibilities... From heidit at netbox.com Tue Mar 4 01:50:57 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 20:50:57 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] James Potter- Prefect/Head Boy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004101c2e1f0$809eda10$0301a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 53120 > > Olivia Grey wrote: > >>How James found the time to run around with the Maruders, play > Quidditch, > become prefect and Head Boy,learn to become an Animagus, antagonize > and be antagonized by Snape,court Lily, and still be able to graduate > is beyond me. I can't even return my library books on time.>> Aldrea asked: > What's this? Sorry if I'm nitpicking, but Harry's dad, Head Boy and > a Prefect? Is this canon/JKR stated anywhere(and I'm just behind the > times..if so, my apologies!), just a personal theory of your's, or > did you just get caught up in listing things? > Well, we know he's Harry's dad ;) from book 1. We know from Hagrid that he was Head Boy (also from Book 1). British listies have told us on various occasions (you can search through the message archive to find the exact messages) that generally, the Head Boy and Head Girl are chosen from among the prefects in the previous year(s), which is why, I think, Olivia drew the conclusion that James had been Head Boy. Technically, we don't know if he and Lily dated in Hogwarts either - for all we know, they could've been different years (no, JKR has never said otherwise, to the best of my knowledge) - but as she has said that Snape, and by extension, James and the Marauders, were "35 or 6" (http://www.comicrelief.com/harrysbooks/pages/transcript.shtml), we have to mathmatically conclude that James was somewhere between 20ish and 25ish when Harry was born. Note: we don't know if she meant 35 or 6 at the end of Book 4, the beginning of Book 4, or, in fact, the beginning of the series itself, hence the five year split on the possible ages. Heidi Follow me to FictionAlley Fanfics of all shapes, sizes & SHIPs http://www.fictionalley.org From lilpurplealdy at netscape.net Tue Mar 4 01:52:52 2003 From: lilpurplealdy at netscape.net (Juliet ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 01:52:52 -0000 Subject: Lily's Sacrifice (WAS Re: Godric's Hollow) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53121 Carrie S >> Also, how come it is Lily's sacrifice to save Harry that means anything?? Why didn't James' sacrifice work to protect Lily or Harry? Is that why he stayed and didn't apparate away, turn into a dog and run, or do the Avakedavra spell first - because he was trying to make the sacrifice himself and save the rest of his family??>> I think I remember someone mentioning this in a recent(sorry I can't give credit, but I'm a lil pressed for time)- Lily was part of some already set-up plan about What To Do When Voldemort Attacks(sounds like a TV show/book, eh?). I can see this as being some sort of charm performed on Lily that would make the protection Harry received occur after she had made that Ultimate Sacrifice. Someone else also pointed it out that it IS a little far-fetched that no other mother's sacrificed their lives for their children during Voldemort's reign. But, as we don't know the Full Story yet(who knows if we ever will, but I'm still hoping against hope that OotP includes a "Harry, it is time to tell you everything" line from Dumbledore), who knows if there isn't something else other than the Sacrifice at play here(such as a Charm). ~Aldrea, taking no credit for anything of the above, just remembering having read these elsewhere and using them to answer someone's questions. From lilpurplealdy at netscape.net Tue Mar 4 01:57:29 2003 From: lilpurplealdy at netscape.net (Juliet ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 01:57:29 -0000 Subject: House points and prefects In-Reply-To: <3E631E54.26017.1E87A2@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53122 Alsh: >>I know there have been discussions on the list about the points system and how the school keeps with them. I had always assumed that: It?s magic!>> IIRC(and I'm almost 100% sure I am), in the first book, when Hermione/Neville/Harry lose Gryffindor 150 points, it talks about how the Gryffindors walked pass the Big Clock that keeps track of the House Points in disbelief. So, there is a Big Clock keeping tally. As to how the points get entered in the clock, it would make sense that the Prefects/Head Boy-Girl would use their badges so the Clock would know they are qualified to delete points. As for the teacher's, maybe they have their own little badges, or maybe the clock just knows to recognize them(and that could very well be true about the Prefects/Head Boy-Girl as well). ~Aldrea, who really really *should* be studying for Spanish right now... From regbait at desertzephyr.com Tue Mar 4 01:05:49 2003 From: regbait at desertzephyr.com (breeze_of_zephyr ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 01:05:49 -0000 Subject: Hagrid: Allowed to use Wands and Magic...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53123 bboy_mn: > I do not think the sanction has been officially lifted and Hagrid hasn't > been officially allowed to work toward his GOED (General Owl > Equivalancy Diploma). I am most definitely looking forward to Hagrid > getting a new wand which will be the first sign that he is back on the > road to becoming a fully qualified wizard. I don't think this will > happen in the background, when it does happen it will be a big deal > and we all definitely know about it. I read an interview with JK Rowling in...ah, why don't I just quote it: Q: Since Hagrid's name was cleared in Book 2, will he ever be allowed to do magic openly again ? (Jan Campbell) A: He is allowed. He has been allowed to do magic openly ever since he became a teacher but because he was never fully trained his magic is never going to be what it should be. He is always going to be a bit inept. Source: http://www.swns.com/vaults/rowling.htm Hope this helps, Steve Calabrese From flamingstarchows at att.net Tue Mar 4 02:29:22 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 20:29:22 -0600 Subject: Kneazel? References: <00a001c2e1dc$981ac0a0$9865fea9@Frodo> Message-ID: <00e401c2e1f5$de92e080$4711570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 53124 ----- Original Message ----- From: Heidi Does the fact that Crookshanks doesn't react negatively to Draco indicate that he is neither unsavory nor suspicious, and if so, what does that mean for his character and characterization in future books? ----Me---- I received the impression that Crookshanks reacts negatively to those things that are not what they appear to be (like Scabbers!Peter). Since Malfoy is openly hostile to HRH, he certainly isn't concealing anything. ~Cathy~ From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Tue Mar 4 02:37:39 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 02:37:39 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Karkaroff out Lucius Malfoy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53125 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall " wrote: > I find it hard to believe that Karkaroff wouldn't know that Lucius > was a Death Eater. I mean, sure, it's possible, but given that they > know each other, I still find it hard to believe. > > So, why wouldn't Karkaroff out Malfoy to save his own neck? > I can think of two possible explanations for this: 1. Lucius had already pleaded Imperius by then, and Karkaroff new about it. In that case, there would've been no point in outing Lucius. Even if Karkaroff had said, "No, it's a lie, he wasn't under Imperius," it would've been Lucius' word against his, and Lucius has a lot of pull. 2. Karkaroff was counting on Lucius to help him out once he got out of Azkaban. After all, Karkaroff would've been in a difficult position once he got released: a known DE *and* a known informant. He may have been planning to hit Lucius up for money and protection and help in leaving the country. Maybe a spot of blackmail, even: "I didn't give them your name, but I still could if you don't help me." There may be more possibilities, but these are the two that sprang to my mind. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 03:03:33 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 19:03:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kneazel? In-Reply-To: <00e401c2e1f5$de92e080$4711570c@pavilion> Message-ID: <20030304030333.80991.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53126 Heidi: > Does the fact that Crookshanks > doesn't react negatively to Draco > indicate that he is neither > unsavory nor suspicious, and if so, > what does that mean for his > character and characterization in > future books? Have we actually seen Crookshanks and Draco interact? In the same place at the same time...ever? I can't recall. BTW, has anyone put together a list of people that Crookshanks has (1) met and liked and (2) met and disliked? Petra a n :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 03:15:42 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 03:15:42 -0000 Subject: Late Start to Magical Education (Was: Re: WQ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53127 Sorry, but I've snipped the entire post. The thrust is that logic would seem to indicate that magic kids should be much father ahead of muggle kids when they first come to Hogwarts, and various people had various explainations. But, I don't think they put enough emphasis on the fact that these kids are 11 years old. So Molly uses magic in the kitchen, so what. My mother uses her own brand of motherly magic to make delicious pies from scratch, and I can assure you that at 11 I had no interest in or knowledge of how these pies got make. All I wanted was to eat them. Plus most mothers expecially of large families do not need a dozen kids hanging around the kitchen while they are trying to work. Basically, it 'go out and play until I call you for supper'. How many muggles really know what their dad does for a living? I don't mean as in 'my dad builds roads'. I mean exactly what does he have to do to get these roads built. My dad alway took us out for a Sunday drive to see the roads he was currently working on and even sometimes let us ride along in his road grader. So even with that close up knowledge, I still didn't really know how to build roads. When I was in early grade school, my grandfather let me and my brother come out with him in his road grader while he maintained the county roads, and even let us drive it. REALLY! Drive it for substantial distances out on the open gravel country roads. That's a big thrill for a little kid. But I still didn't understand it. It was a big loud machine with row and rows of magic levers and massive amounts of horsepower. What a thrill! But I still didn't understand it, and if I had gotten a job building roads, I would have been pretty much starting from scratch. Why would magic kids be any different? I certainly knew more about heavy construction equipment than most kids, but that would have been worth very little when I start heavy construction equipment school at age 11. See my point here? True some kids take an out of the ordinary interest like Snape or Hermione, but most kids are outside running and playing with their brothers and their friends, and what magic they see is just and ordinary part of daily life. They don't need to know how to make white sauce come out of a wand, as long as when it's time to eat, Mum has a bowl of white sauce on the table. Just my opinion. bboy_mn From siriuskase at earthlink.net Tue Mar 4 03:38:19 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 03:38:19 -0000 Subject: Harry's Big Money Gift.... & more on money In-Reply-To: <20030304003807.44650.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53128 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Andrea wrote: > --- Pip wrote: > > No it doesn't. If someone wins, and then drops dead (effectively > > what happens to Cedric), they don't award the prize to the runner > > up. This has occasionally happened in the UK; what generally happens > > is that it's announced that the winner of the competition has died > > and their prize is awarded posthumously. A member of the family or a > > close friend will then accept it on their behalf. > > Yes, but this isn't a case of Harry being the runner-up. It was a tie. > They both touched the Cup at the exact same time, regardless of > circumstances before or after, so therefore it was a tie. It's not > terribly unusual in the case of a tie where one winner dies to award the > entire prize to the surviving winner, especially in this case where > Cedric's heirs (his parents) seemed to agree that Harry should keep the > money. > > > Andrea > Now try on the point of view of someone who doesn't believe that Voldy exists and therefore, Harry and Cedric's trip to the graveyard didn't happen. We know that this is the opinion of at least one of the judges. So what officially happened? The simplest and likeliest thing is that the two contenders fought near the cup and Cedric was killed before anyone ever touched it, then Harry sat there for awhile thinking up the story and finally grabbed Cedric's hand, then the cup. Cedric never touches it, so Harry is the only winner unless you believe the graveyard tale. The Diggory's or the Ministry accepting the money from Harry would imply that they must also accept his version. From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 04:25:04 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 20:25:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Harry's Big Money Gift.... & more on money In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030304042504.11270.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53129 --- siriuskase wrote: > Now try on the point of view of someone who doesn't believe that Voldy > exists and therefore, Harry and Cedric's trip to the graveyard didn't > happen. We know that this is the opinion of at least one of the > judges. So what officially happened? The simplest and likeliest > thing is that the two contenders fought near the cup and Cedric was > killed before anyone ever touched it, then Harry sat there for awhile > thinking up the story and finally grabbed Cedric's hand, then the cup. > Cedric never touches it, so Harry is the only winner unless you > believe the graveyard tale. The Diggory's or the Ministry accepting > the money from Harry would imply that they must also accept his > version. Well, I like your theory in principle, but it falls down in a few of the specifics. It says in GOF Ch.35, "He had come back to the edge of the maze. He could see the stands rising above him, the shapes of people moving in them, the stars above." So Harry and Cedric disappeared from the center of the maze, and Harry reappeared with Cedric's body at the edge. Fudge (and others) disagree as to what *happened* to Harry and Cedric after they disappeared, but not that Harry made the entire event up. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From amani at charter.net Tue Mar 4 05:05:33 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 00:05:33 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Big Money Gift.....(Was: Clues from GoF) References: <003a01c2e11d$1cea1800$131e5142@net> Message-ID: <003601c2e20b$af65d7c0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53130 Carrie: Well....why didn't Harry give Ron the money?? Ron's his best friend, he knows he needs money for things. He knows how frustrated Ron is of hand-me-downs, etc. Ron is always (well except for a huge part of GoF) there for him, helped him get on his feet in the WW, etc. He owes Ron a lot. And he just disses him like that. You would think at least he would give the twin's the money Ludo owed them and the balance to Ron. Is our little Harry harboring angst toward Ron still?? Hmmmm... Me: Ron wants the money, but he's still a proud kid. He doesn't want Harry's pity, and Harry giving him money would translate into that. It's easier for things to come, 1) as objects instead of money, and 2) from family, despite how close your friend is. This way, Ron's pride is not hurt in any way. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amani at charter.net Tue Mar 4 05:08:48 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 00:08:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Godric's Hollow References: <4.2.0.58.20030301124238.00966290@plum.cream.org> <001401c2e11c$2bf67060$131e5142@net> Message-ID: <004f01c2e20c$23a695c0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53131 Carrie: Also, how come it is Lily's sacrifice to save Harry that means anything?? Why didn't James' sacrifice work to protect Lily or Harry? Is that why he stayed and didn't apparate away, turn into a dog and run, or do the Avakedavra spell first - because he was trying to make the sacrifice himself and save the rest of his family?? Me: Because Lily had the /chance/ to step aside. James, from what we know from Harry's memories, was not given that. He was simply killed. Lily, however, was told to stand aside, but refused. She might have lived, but gave up her life to protect Harry. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lilpurplealdy at netscape.net Tue Mar 4 05:34:14 2003 From: lilpurplealdy at netscape.net (Juliet ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 05:34:14 -0000 Subject: Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: <004f01c2e20c$23a695c0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53132 Taryn: > Because Lily had the /chance/ to step aside. James, from what we know from Harry's memories, was not given that. He was simply killed. Lily, however, was told to stand aside, but refused. She might have lived, but gave up her life to protect Harry.> One could argue that James also had the chance to get away(IIRC, he *told* Lily to take Harry and run. He could have ran with them, but no, he told them to try and run, while he bought them time with his life). It wasn't stated verbally like Lily's was(Or maybe it was! We still don't know the whole story...), but he still made that decision to stand and fight. He could have Apparated out of the house, blown a hole through whatever room he was standing in and jumped out of it to freedom, Accio!Broomstick and fly away, or any other possibilities one might think of. He could have *attempted* to run, is the point I am trying to make. But he decided to go down fighting. Which, one could argue, really isn't any different than Lily's decision to stand and protect Harry. But, this theory makes sense if one doesn't try to argue that, so that's what I'm going to believe(for now). Unless, of course, someone can find a more defined difference between what James did for Harry and what Lily did for Harry. One idea- Lily actually saved Harry, James didn't. But, then that doesn't make any sense, because how is it that Lily saved Harry and James didn't? Did Dumbledore actually state that Lily is what *saved* Harry that night, or that Lily is just what provides Harry with the protection that saved him from Quirrellmort..?(Sorry for asking, but tis late. I'll probably now get ten replies quoting canon at me, but oh well.) ~Aldrea, off to try and get some sleep. From oppen at mycns.net Tue Mar 4 08:04:18 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 02:04:18 -0600 Subject: Harry's watch Message-ID: <019601c2e224$a91ac880$80560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 53133 I would guess that Harry's watch, which he's mentioned as wearing at the beginning of PS/SS, was given to him by the Dursleys. Not for Harry's sake, but for their own, so that he'd be on time for things. It could have been a "spare" watch that originally belonged to Dudley, which he discarded when he got a better one with more gizmos and doo-dads. Just like Harry's clothes at the Dursleys are hand-me-downs from his cousin, his watch could be as well. --Eric, who would love an explanation about why Harry's former headmistress never seemed to notice how bad Harry had it. From melbeldancequeen at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 02:28:39 2003 From: melbeldancequeen at yahoo.com (Melinda S) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 21:28:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Lists D.E. & Malfoy (Re: Clues in GoF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030304022839.67902.qmail@web13303.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53134 Greg said: >I also, for some reason, >dont see Snape collaborating with Malfoy on anything >that is outside >the realm of Dumbledore - Dumbledore is the only >thing that kept >Snape from the Dementors. >More likely, I think, is that Snape thought that >Lucius was a benign >entity, that he could be trusted, at least that he >was not allied >with Voldemort. Now he finds out that he is, and >this compromises >him in some way. Me: I also do not see Snape and Malfoy as collaborating on anything, but I also do not get the impression that Snape ever thought that Malfoy was benign or that he could be trusted. It is quite possible that Snape did not see Malfoy as allied with Voldemort, as IMO number one in Malfoy's books is himself, and he will always look after himself first and foremost. But also, I think that fear of Voldemort, and of desertion of Voldemort would induce most Death Eaters to return to the fold *very* quickly. One big rule for protecting yourself is to make sure that you haven't teed off someone who is likely to kill you, such as Voldemort. I put Lucius Malfoy in that category. Also, I thought that Snape's "sudden movement" was more due to apprehension that Harry might put his name on that list of people he was rattling off. Harry knows (or has great suspicions,) that Snape was a Death Eater, as Dumbledore hinted to him. (Ch.30 GOF) Snape, like Lucius, is concerned with himself. But why would Harry tell? There are two reasons as I see it: 1) Harry doesn't trust Snape the way Dumbledore does. "What made you think that he'd really stopped supporting Voldemort Professor?" (Ch. 30 p524 in the GB hardcover 2000 ed. of GOF) For all Harry knows Snape may still be loyal to Voldemort. Harry also has no reason to trust Snape, as Dumbledore apparently does. 2) Also, Snape knows that Harry hates him just as he hates Harry. Snape is the type of person who might rat on someone out of hatred for them. We are pretty sure that Harry won't, but Snape has no guarantees about Harry's behaviour. I believe he knows that if the roles were reversed, he would probably rat on Harry, and I think Snape may judge Harry on his own standards of behaviour, on what Snape would do in the same position. One problem is that Snape was not explicitly mentioned by Voldemort after his revival in Chapter 33. We assume that the Death Eater who has left him forever is Snape, but knowing JKR, that *may* not be so. Snape may not have been included in that group of six that Voldemort dwells on. (3 dead, 1 loyal, 1 lost, 1 coward.) Also, Voldemort, while touring the circle of Death Eaters, did not stop to talk to them all, nor did he mention the names of them all. For all we know, Snape may have been there. (As far as I remember - someone please correct me if I'm wrong!) Therefore, Harry doesn't know where Snape is, whether he was there or not, and to whom he is truly loyal. (Personally, I think Snape is loyal to Dumbledore, and that he was not at the DE gathering, but Harry is not so sure on this point.) Because of the uncertainty of the extent of Harry's knowledge, and of his hatred, Snape doesn't know whether Harry will act on any suspicions or grudges he *may* have. IMO, Snape's jumpiness in that scene was because he doesn't know whether Harry will place him at the scene or not. He would much rather be able to tell Fudge himself that he *was* a Death Eater, than to be placed at Voldemort's side again by Harry's testimony. Also, Harry's testimony, true or otherwise, may hurt him in the eyes of Dumbledore, who is one of the only reasons he's not in Azkaban. I had a very different interpretation of Snape's actions, and if it has been covered before, I apologize. I'm new to the group and I'm very happy to find people who love Harry Potter as much as I do! Mel - who *really* doesn't want Snape to be completely evil. From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Tue Mar 4 02:53:23 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 20:53:23 -0600 Subject: hearing voices Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53135 There's been a lot of speculation lately about the identity of the people that Harry hears when he hears his parents' death. I've read speculations ranging from Pettigrew with Voldemort, Snape with Voldemort, Snape with Lily, Sirius with Lily, etc, etc, etc. There is something I think must be considered, however, before one makes such an assumption. Harry doesn't recognize the voices he hears. In my opinion, this rules out Snape, Lupin, and Dumbledore AT LEAST from being at the scene.. I don't have the book itself with me, alas, but IIRC, the quotes goes something like "Harry heard a male voice saying "Lily, run, I'll hold him off,"" or "Harry heard a male voice saying "stand aside, you silly girl."" (sorry about the innacuracy. I need to find that book!) The quotes don't say he heard anybody he knows, and IMNSHO, he'd probably recognize any of these people's voices at once. It isn't quite as sure, but I feel that this also rules out Sirius and Pettigrew from being at the scene as well. Later in the story he hears both characters' voices quite clearly, in an event which probably burns itself indelibly into his memory, and he doesn't recognize either of their voices. There's no, "Harry was shocked; this was one of the voices he heard whenever Dementors were near him!" realization when Harry meets either of these characters. Besides these points, if I remember right, the "stand aside" voice is described as high and cold, which makes me 99.735% certain that it's Voldemort saying this. If anybody who's got PoA handy could check this out, I'd be grateful, but I'd bet that this scene occured as Harry percieves it. Hobbit-guy, showing some of that skepticism he sang about last time From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 05:25:00 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 05:25:00 -0000 Subject: could JKR be making fun of us? / quartets & houses (WAS: Re: Clash of Heirs) In-Reply-To: <3E63DB38.000004.39131@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53136 Stacey wrote - > Salazar was pushed out originally by Godric, Helga, and Rowena. > Is it possible that we may have a drawing of the three? That is, > the three decendents of Godric, Helga, and Rowena? Now, there is a > decent amount of evidence that Harry is the heir of Gryffindor [suggests Hermione = Ravenclaw; Ron = Hufflepuff] > However I would suspect that their placement in Gryffindor would indicate that they are not the heirs. Though it would add a great nuance to the triumverate. > K added: [discussing how the Heirs may not necessarily be sorted into the "appropriate" house] > students have accused two different people of being the 'Heir of > Slytherin' - Hagrid and Harry both of whom are > Gryffindors. Surely if the house was at all important as a clue to > who is the heir of whom then the *least* likely house for the Heir > of Slytherin to be in is the house of the person who reputedly > drove Slytherin from the school in the first place. Me: I love looking for the parallels between the backstory and the present day story... might there be an emphasis on foursomes? The four founders/ houses, the four Marauders, and some have paralleled HHR+1 to the Marauders, which could be another quartet. This makes me wonder if Draco will make the HHR trio into a quartet. (NOT that I'm inferring these four will become tight buddies or anything. Instead, just Draco working with them to some greater good. Or even just him being "cosmically" linked to them and playing some role in a larger event, just as he was directly involved with them having to go into the Forbidden Forest in SS, but not in a "best buds 4ever" way.) Mostly, I can't think of anyone else among Harry's classmates, Syltherin-sorted or not, that could fill the Slytherin role for an HHR+1 foursome. (or maybe we'll have to wait for the next book to see this possibility.) This also makes me wonder about the marauders: who would be representative of which house? I think it's fair to say James=Gryffindor (feel free to dispute this, please!) I've been toying around with the trying to match up the others and have proceded to run around in circles... but I'll bite the bullet and put one set of possibilites up for debate. 1) Pettigrew: Slytherin (ambitious). I put him here mostly because he definitely does not operate on the "all for one and one for all" Hufflepuff plane, nor does he have the mental agility for Ravenclaw. And there's that whole siding with the dark side thing, too. (But I do think that Slytherins have gotten a bad rap - even if *all* wizards who have gone bad have come from Slytherin, as Hagrid has claimed, it's false logic to turn that claim around and avert that all Slytherins are fated to go bad.) I have less in depth descriptions for the other two: 2) Lupin: Hufflepuff (nobody's left behind/ group think territory/ move at the speed of their weakest link, rarely get the glory). Definitely does not receive glory (due to werewolf-phobia), and willing to take risks for the group - even if they end up being taken at the group's expense. (I'm referring to his forgetting to take Snape's potion because he was too concerned about rescuing HHR from the Shrieking Shack melee - or would a Hufflepuff know better than to forget the potion, since doing so would undoubtedly put HHR in as much - if not more - danger than they were already in? Is Sirius a better Hufflepuff candidate, esp. considering the faithful quality of his dog-animagi?) 3) Sirius Black: Ravenclaw (mental quickness, determined individualists, competitive, everyone for themselves). A lot of this comes from his role in the (1st) shrieking shack Snape incident. Also, it takes brains to survive on the lam. And Sirius is a favorite of mine, as is the Ravenclaw house. But I suppose that doesn't count as proper evidence ;) **(and thanks to Jodel, from her post #53098 "re: snape/neville/trevor, whose great house descriptions I have paraphrased)** And, never one to shy away from stretching a theory beyond its limits, what about "the old crowd"? I'm not about to try and sort them (we might not even know who some of them are!) but it's something I'm going to be keeping my eye out for in OoP. K wrote: > there has been quite a bit of circumstantial evidence that Harry is > the Heir of Gryffindor - although imho it's no more convincing than > the circumstantial evidence that led the student body to believe > that he was the heir of Slytherin, so maybe JKR is paralleling the > way the students were fooled into believing that Harry was the Heir > of Slytherin by fooling her readers into jumping to the conclusion > that Harry is the heir of Gryffindor. Me: Oh no! This makes me wonder... Consider how JKR portrays Divination: mostly rubbish, with (if you actually have the gift for Divination) a VERY occasional on-the-mark prediction - that you don't even remember making once you've done it! This can't be how JKR views *our* theories and discussion, can it?... - Nobody's Rib, who is both laughing and crying From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 06:27:23 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 06:27:23 -0000 Subject: "bone of the father" and blood (WAS: Re: book 7: back to the future theory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53137 I previously proposed a back to the future theory for book seven about Harry traveling back in time to kill Riddle, thus killing Voldemort (complete theory found in post #53301). Tanya gave her own time-travel theory: > My theory is that Harry is actually "the stranger. The teenage boy, > dark-haired and pale" that Frank Bryce sees on the day of the > Riddle Murders. > Why would Harry go-back in time to this particular event? I adore Tom's answer: >Now we all know that for V to come back, he needs 3 things, in > reverse order to make a point:(chap.22 US, page641-642) > 3)"Blood of the enemy....forcibly taken 2)Flesh of the servant - willingly given 1)Bone of the father, unknowingly given > > Did you catch it? > > "UNKNOWINGLY GIVEN"? What would happen if before he died, Mr Riddle, the father, knew his son was coming back for the bone? > Well, it is no longer "unknown" if the person knows about it in > advance, is it? And, Harry really doesn't have to change anything, > have to worry about having the future altered in any way by doing > this. > it would also explain the twinkle in Dumbledore's eyes after seeing > the cut on Harry's arm. Because, I'm sure he knows exactly how that > spell works, and when he is sure of which spell it is, he has an > extremely odd thought. "What if Harry can change one thing in the > events that preceded all of this? What if Harry goes back > before 'V' kills Mr Riddle, and told him of the coming situation? > Could this act, would this act, change things still to come?" > And that, IMO, is what the "twinkle" was, an idea. Me: I love it! So much so, that I went back to look up both passages: "Frank was stubbornly repeating, again and again, that he was innocent [of killing the Riddles], and that the only person he had seen near the house on the day of the Riddles' deaths had been a teenage boy, a stranger, dark-haired and pale. Nobody else had seen any such boy, and the police were quite sure Frank had invented him," US Hardcover GoF, page 3. So far, so good. As for the Dumbledore part, the text doesn't say whether or not Harry went into all of the specifics of V's spell (that is, we have no direct quotes.) But we have no reason to believe that Harry left anything out. I really want this theory to pan out, but I am worried about one thing: as Harry is telling the story, Sirius keeps trying to interrupt, but Dumbledure shushes him. Dumbledore is moved to interrupt only after Harry tells of being cut by Wormtail: "Sirius let out a vehement exclamation and Dumbledore stood up so quickly that Harry started. Dumbledore walked around the desk and told Harry to stretch out his arm... [description of Harry's arm] '[Voldemort] said my blood would make him stronger than if he'd used someone else's. And he was right - he could touch me without hurting himself, he touched my face.'" And it is only after this information that "For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes," GoF, pgs 695-6. So I worry that if our bones theory is accurate, that we would have read about Harry describing the bones, after which Dumbledore would have had his Look. There are so many other themes and storylines having to do with the blood (pure-/mudbloods, unicorn blood, dragon blood, family connections/blood) the I fear the blood part was the most important here. On the other hand, one of the blood themes has been that blood *isn't* enough to make the final difference: Voldemort was sustained at the "barely living" point by drinking unicorn blood, but it couldn't fully bring him back; family blood ties are not always the strongest (consider the Dursleys) nor do they produce the best results (consider the Crouches); and, of course, there's the whole pure-/mudblood debate, which I don't need to sum up. So maybe we will be *led* to believe that the blood in the spell was *the* thing to make the difference - only to be reminded later that blood, though powerful, isn't always the defining factor of a thing. Could JKR have purposefully misled us with D's eye-twinkle, giving us just enough to notice it and wonder about it, and just enough to make that incorrect blood-assumption? - Nobody's Rib From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 07:40:00 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 07:40:00 -0000 Subject: Lily & Voldemort/ a wee bit of anti-sexism (WAS: Re: Godric's Hollow) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53138 I've done a bunch of hypothesizing about Lily/James/Voldemort on that night, and couldn't resist joining in and asking a few questions of my own. First off, as long as I'm delving in, I'll post some of the canon in response to: Aldrea asked: > Did Dumbledore actually state that Lily is what *saved* Harry that night, or that Lily is just what provides Harry with the protection that saved him from Quirrellmort..? Me: "Your mother died to save you. If there is one thing V cannot understand, it is love. He didn't realize that love as powerful as your mother's love for you leave its own mark. to have been loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us is gone, will give us some protection forever," D to H, SS, US Hardcover, pg 299 Aldrea wrote, discussing James' role in saving Harry's life: > he decided to go down fighting. Which, one could argue, really > isn't any different than Lily's decision to stand and protect Harry. > Unless, of course, someone can find a more defined difference > between what James did for Harry and what Lily did for Harry. Me: My concerns on this subject are mildly related - but instead of wondering about differences between James and Lily's *actions* for *Harry*, I want to know about the differences between James and Lily's *relationship* with *Voldemort*. Let me explain: Voldemort treats James and Lily differently that night, placing different values on their lives. Voldemort told Lily to get out of the way so he could kill Harry (as heard by Harry when encountering the Dementors). Why would he care whether or not he killed Lily/ why wouldn't he just kill her and then go after Harry instead of preferring to kill Harry first? easy answer: He wanted Lily to see Harry die to torture her before killing her. But then why would he wish this for Lily - and not for James (who he has already killed)? That's treating Lily and James differently. next answer: He didn't want to kill Lily. He was going after Harry, James got in the way (and his dying or living was insignificant), and so James was killed. But when Lily got in the way there was some reason that Voldemort didn't want her to die. the canon (sort of) backs this up: "I killed your father first... but your mother needn't have died," V to H, SS, US Hardcover, pg 294. Now we can't necessarily *believe* Voldemort, but I've also thought one of the most evil ways to manipulate someone is to use the truth for your own devices. And regardless of Voldemort's truthfulness, it doesn't change his actions (or, what we know of them) on the night James and Lily died. So what is the reason for giving Lily special treatment? Whatever it is, there's going to be a Greek Tragedy type of thing going on - had V *not* given Lily special treatment, he never would have fallen... he would have taken the easiest route to killing the family - 1st James, then Lily (w/o trying for Harry to be victim #2), and then Harry. No option for Lily to "step aside", thus no reason for Lily's actions to evoke that deepest-mother's-love/sacrifice- magic. So, Voldemort's special relationship with Lily was his ultimate downfall (and, by association, Harry has become known as being the reason for his downfall.) The star wars/I Am Your Father (or grandfather or uncle...) explanation for the Voldemort-Lily connection is a bit too much for me, though I don't discount it completely. (After all, if nothing else, Lily's eyes are going to have some important role later on, and there's been lots of descriptions of Voldemort's eyes, Voldemort is known for hating his male relatives, etc.) I do like thinking about Lily having a darker past than we're led to believe (either as a DE or doubleagent!Lily), but with both of these things, I can't imagine her staying true to V after learning that he was going to kill her husband and child, and if she turned her back on V then I don't see why V would try, in effects, to save her life. And really, that's what Voldemort tried to do. Take into account that we're dealing with the Darkest Wizard - isn't showing even the smallest bit of mercy (giving Lily the chance to step aside and not be killed) a HUGE thing? He doesn't even treat Wormtail as well as this, and look what Wormtail has done for him! So what has Lily done for Voldemort that deserves this special treatment? Hmmm... now that I'm thinking about all of this even more, I want to know why, if Voldemort *really* didn't want Lily in the way, he didn't just Imperius Curse her into moving aside. Was there someone else there, coughcoughSnapecoughcough, for whom Voldemort wanted to put forth the facade of attempting to save Lily? And, although I hate to repeat myself again - if this is the case, what makes Lily (or the "person in the corner", or both) so special? (Then again, maybe Lily's sacrifice is in the books just to focus on the importance of motherhood/ power of women, and Voldemort's treatment of Lily just goes along with a positive treatment of women theme. That'd be nice, especially considering how some accuse the books of having sexist themes. Yeah, it'd be nice - but not nearly as much fun.) - Nobody's Rib From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 07:55:01 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 07:55:01 -0000 Subject: book 7: back to the future theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53139 Fred Waldrop wrote: > "UNKNOWINGLY GIVEN"? What would happen if before he Mr Riddle, the > father, knew his son was coming back for the bone? --snipped-- > "What if Harry can change one thing in the events that preceded all > of this? What if Harry goes back before 'V' kills Mr Riddle, and > told him of the coming situation? Could this act, would this act, > change things still to come?" > And that, IMO, is what the "twinkle" was, an idea. It must not change anything. However, it *could* be, that it has happened (with a Time-Turner?) - maybe someone *did* tell him before he married the witch. A prediction saying that a son by a witch will kill him and later dig up his bones. A prediction he believed. So, after that, when he found out being married to a witch, he abandoned her in attempt to prevent the prediction. Unknown to him, the wife was already pregnant. She didn't know about the prediction, but assumed it was ONLY because of her magic... When Tom Marvolo Riddle then came to kill his father, he knew that the prediction would be fulfilled... So - there's two flaws in the potion - the bones weren't *unknowingly* given *and* servant had life-debt to the enemy... But what does this cause? It seemed to restore Voldemort as it was? Will Voldemort be destroyed if Harry lasts long enough for Tom Riddle to come out of the wand, saying something like "Give be back my bones, boy"??? -- Finwitch From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 08:10:42 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 08:10:42 -0000 Subject: Take a Bath (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53140 This filk is a parody of "Lost and Found, from the Larry Gelbart musical "City of Angels". You can hear the original music at this link: http://www.broadwaymidi.com/shows/city_of_angels.html Take a Bath Scene: Harry Potter, Hogwarts Champion for the Tri-Wizard Tournament, is in the Prefects' Lavatory with the Golden Egg in hand, but no idea what to do with it. Moaning Myrtle, who haunts the plumbing at Hogwarts-- and fancies Harry-- offers some advice. Moaning Myrtle: Dear Harry Potter, you've a puzzle to solve; But that can wait until the bubbles dissolve. Take a bath; take a bath. Though he's a prig, Harry, Listen to Diggory. You gotta take a bath. Well then, here are you, in the loo. You are the Champion of Hogwarts School. You have to do the Second Task I beg you, Harry, slip into the pool. Yes, all you had to do was ask! Colored foam; steamy room; Bouquet of sweet perfume. You musn't be averse. The Egg you must immerse. And I can bathe with you! We can soak; we can do the breaststroke. Time will hurtle by with Moaning Myrtle While we take that bath. Haggridd From nithya_rachel at hotmail.com Tue Mar 4 10:56:07 2003 From: nithya_rachel at hotmail.com (errolowl ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 10:56:07 -0000 Subject: More Polydoubts (was Arabella Figg) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53141 Morgan D. wrote,: >Honestly, I don't see why Barty Jr has to keep Moody around and >alive. Moody's hair is used for the potion, but hair is a dead >tissue. It shouldn't lose its "properties" even if cut from the >subject years before the making of the potion. David replied: >One possibility is that Polyjuice only works as long as the person >being mimicked is alive. I think there must be some sort of magical >connection to the person: for example, how does Moody's hair contain >the information that he has a missing leg? We can speculate under >this possibility what would happen to a Polyjuice disguise if the >original suffers injury or death while the disguise is in force. Me: Moody is in a pretty bad way when they find him ? thin, starved and freezing. None of this affected Barty Jr. did it? So the original suffering injury likely had no effect on the pretender. Harry and Ron feel no effect from the drugging of Crabe and Goyle either. If instead of a sleeping draught they had simply hit them over the head, cartoon style, would Polyjuiced!Harry & Ron have bumps on their heads too? ....the victims of polyjuice we know to date have been disabled in a non-physical way. I tend to think you get a version of the person as of the moment you "stole" some of their essence. Which is why Barty would have had to set aside his supply of MoodyHair before Moody became thin & starved Death might be a different thing all together ? if the original no longer exists, you can't imitate it can you? If the person you stole the hair from was dead, you'd be attempting to turn into a dead body ? not a good idea. But if you stole it from them *before* they died, would it work? Or does death terminate the whole thing? However, Barty Jr. doesn't imply that killing Moody would have made the Polyjuice untenable. GoF US paperback Pg 598: "... I kept him alive, under the Imperius curse. I wanted to be able to question him. To find out about his past, learn his habits so I could fool even Dumbledore. I also needed his hair for the polyjuice portion..." That's the reason Barty gives for keeping Moody around. Maybe using truth potions to learn about the past, and Pensieve like investigations to study his Habits...needing the hair was an add-on. If the original had to be alive for PJ Barty didn't need to explain to Dumbledore why he kept him alive. If polyjuice works with dead subjects, this looks like a handy tool to study what a Historical figure looked like..just dig up the grave, add essence to polyjuice..and you can have an hour long photo session with the inventor of the golden snitch! Errol P.S- Ever notice that Dumbledore takes it for granted that Harry knows the nuances of Polyjuice? Harry had no reason to tell him about their experiment in CoS... From heidit at netbox.com Tue Mar 4 11:19:46 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 06:19:46 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] James Potter- Prefect/Head Boy? In-Reply-To: <004101c2e1f0$809eda10$0301a8c0@Frodo> Message-ID: <004401c2e23f$fa2dd580$0301a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 53142 I wrote: > British listies have told us on various occasions (you can search > through the message archive to find the exact messages) that > generally, > the Head Boy and Head Girl are chosen from among the prefects in the > previous year(s), which is why, I think, Olivia drew the > conclusion that > James had been Head Boy. That last line should've read "James had been prefect before being Head Boy..." Sorry! Heidi, again From nithya_rachel at hotmail.com Tue Mar 4 12:41:05 2003 From: nithya_rachel at hotmail.com (errolowl ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 12:41:05 -0000 Subject: "bone of the father" (WAS: back to the future theory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53143 Interesting theory! Nice work so far Nobodys-rib, Tanya, and Fred. :) In post #53301, nobodysrib proposed a back to the future theory about Harry traveling back in time to kill Riddle, thus killing Voldemort Tanya added her own theory: My theory is that Harry is actually "the stranger. The teenage boy, dark-haired and pale" that Frank Bryce sees on the day of the Riddle Murders. Why would Harry go-back in time to this particular event? Fred comes in on cue: Now we all know that for V to come back, he needs 3 things, 1) Bone of the father, unknowingly given "UNKNOWINGLY GIVEN"? What would happen if before he died, Mr Riddle, the father, knew his son was coming back for the bone? Well, it is no longer "unknown" if the person knows about it in advance, is it? And, Harry really doesn't have to change anything, have to worry about having the future altered in any way by doing this. it would also explain the twinkle in Dumbledore's eyes after seeing the cut on Harry's arm. Because, I'm sure he knows exactly how that spell works, and when he is sure of which spell it is, he has an extremely odd thought. "What if Harry can change one thing in the events that preceded all of this? What if Harry goes back before 'V' kills Mr Riddle, and told him of the coming situation? Could this act, would this act, change things still to come?" And that, IMO, is what the "twinkle" was, an idea. Nobody's rib: I really want this theory to pan out, but I am worried about one thing: as Harry is telling the story, Sirius keeps trying to interrupt, but Dumbledure shushes him. Dumbledore is moved to interrupt only after Harry tells of being cut by Wormtail: "Sirius let out a vehement exclamation and Dumbledore stood up so quickly that Harry started. Dumbledore walked around the desk and told Harry to stretch out his arm... [description of Harry's arm] '[Voldemort] said my blood would make him stronger than if he'd used someone else's. And he was right - he could touch me without hurting himself, he touched my face.'" And it is only after this information that "For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes," GoF, pgs 695-6. So I worry that if our bones theory is accurate, that we would have read about Harry describing the bones, after which Dumbledore would have had his Look. There are so many other themes and storylines having to do with the blood that I fear the blood part was the most important here. Me: I tend to agree with Fred here ? Dumbledore did not necessarily react to the "blood" part (That was Harry's interpretation) DD reacted at the first indication of *which precise spell* Voldmort had used, and it excited him so much that he went over to look at the evidence (Harry's arm). He then gets excited about the possibility of a loophole...but not for too long. By the time he gets back to his side of the table, he has realized that the gains from that maneuver cannot be too drastic. Voldmort has already risen again, and no one should change established events -even with time travel. (Timeturner!Hermione couldn't go back to her missed class once it had already been noticed that she had missed it) The loophole can help make the spell less effective/ defective but that's all. Dumbledore is back to looking old and weary. But even the slightest loophole needs to be exploited, so somebody has to go back in time and chat up Riddle Senior. Now why doesn't Dumbledore send say, McGonagall, at that very instant to accomplish that? Why wait until the next book/ the end of hols? Could it be because Dumbledore needs to investigate the possibility of fitting his scheme into the constraints of time-travel? (These constraints have been brilliantly argued over the Shrieking Shack episode ? I'll have to unearth the links). Dumbledore will have to make sure that whoever goes back is not noticed as being out of place ? that person *should not be seen* as Hermione keeps telling us unless that person has already been seen and mistaken for someone else (Harry seeing himself). Once Dumbledore hears that Frank mentioned an unknown dark boy, he'll know its ok to send Harry ? because paradoxically, it means Harry has already been there. Then again, maybe he needs this time for something else, `cause Dumbledore already appears to know all ... he did know what should happen to help Sirius escape even before he had sent H/H back in time. (When he kept McNair busy in Hagrid's hut giving H/H the time to get Buckbeak to safety, he knew 3 hours before the events unfolded didn't he?) This brings us back to the discussion on the nature of time travel...Did DD think up this scheme at the moment of the "gleam" or had he set this up beforehand, Magic Dishwasher style? If he just thought it up, how come it had already happened? (the stranger had been noticed already). If he set it up long ago, there's a whole lot more to be puzzled through ? and it should be right up the alley for those MD service people. Stacey protests: Thematically it would be bad because it is contrary to what we know of life. While JoAnn's subject matter is certainly in the realm of magic, her themes are those that are concrete to what we experience. By using the time-turner solution for the end of Voldemort is to send the message that problems can be solved simplistically by going back in time and changing them which we know not to be true. This would drive a wedge between our identification with Harry and would ultimately be detrimental to the story. Or at least that's my humble opinion. Me: I agree with Stacey too. While this theory is Bangy and very possible, it sends out mixed signals about what is right and what is easy. But then, so did the end of PoA. However, this could be a learning tool for Harry on right vs easy. What if it's an idea that occurs to *Harry* independently, and he sets about doing it without conferring with Dumbledore? And the ambiguous consequences could be instructive. If this is the case, Dumbledore's gleam might be because it just struck him about what was likely to happen (even know-it-alls have to have moments of realization) and he's excited even if for a very short while. Errol From hp at plum.cream.org Tue Mar 4 13:57:09 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 13:57:09 +0000 Subject: Harry's watch In-Reply-To: <019601c2e224$a91ac880$80560043@hppav> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030304134658.00986280@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53144 Eric Oppen wrote: >I would guess that Harry's watch, which he's mentioned as wearing at the >beginning of PS/SS, was given to him by the Dursleys. Not for Harry's sake, >but for their own, so that he'd be on time for things. Err... which watch "at the beginning of PS/SS"? On the contrary, "Harry lay in his dark cupboard much later, wishing he had a watch." (UK ed., p. 27 - last page of chapter 2). However, Dudley did get a gold watch for his birthday, so there's certainly room for speculation that Harry "inherited" an older one from him. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who's getting a feeling of deja-vu From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 09:06:29 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 09:06:29 -0000 Subject: could JKR be making fun of us? /Hermione, Divination In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53145 --- "nobodysrib wrote: > Oh no! This makes me wonder... Consider how JKR portrays Divination: > mostly rubbish, with (if you actually have the gift for Divination) a > VERY occasional on-the-mark prediction - that you don't even remember > making once you've done it! This can't be how JKR views *our* > theories and discussion, can it?... Maybe it IS! After all, we do try to find what's *likely* to happen in the future books, and the little clues JKR has given stand for the rare and *real* prediction... Hermione considers it being nonesense and not worthy of the bother (partly because Trelawney told her that 1)you can only learn so much from a book while *Hermione's* answer to nearly everything is in the library). Divination is not nonsense, despite the surface of LIKELY predictions. Subconcious that notices things our awareness doesn't - pays attention to things considered amiss or nonsense simply can't be dealt with directly, but with all the star-maps and all, you can. And not only that - accepting your mortality and that of others... See what happens with Harry when he accepts that he'll die behind the gravestone: "He's going to kill me anyway. I'll stand up and fight" - and then, *lives* because of it... -- Finwitch From ophelia12uk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 4 13:29:31 2003 From: ophelia12uk at yahoo.co.uk (Claire ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 13:29:31 -0000 Subject: More Polydoubts (was Arabella Figg) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53146 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "errolowl " wrote: > > P.S- Ever notice that Dumbledore takes it for granted that Harry > knows the nuances of Polyjuice? Harry had no reason to tell him > about their experiment in CoS... Apart from Hermione spending sometime as a cat in the Hosptial Wing? She had to tell someone what had happened so they could change her back or do whatever treatment they used. From there surely it's not too big a jump to Dumbledore knowing that Harry knows how Polyjuice potions work. Especially as he and Ron took Hermione to Madame Pomphrey. Claire, who'd quite like to look like someone else right now. From karenkyla3 at aol.com Tue Mar 4 14:15:18 2003 From: karenkyla3 at aol.com (karenkyla3 ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 14:15:18 -0000 Subject: Wand and Death Order Controversy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53147 Okay, I need you all to explain something to me like I"m really dumb because I've been reading post upon post and faq after faq about this whole 'wand order controversy' regarding the night that Harry's parents were killed. From what I gather, there is some question as to the order that they all died and who he was after and who offered the protection. Okay, we know that Harry 'broke' Voldemort's power because his mother sacrificed her life for his and thus Voldemort's spell ricocheted back to himself. So, here's what I don't understand: If Voldemort's power was definitely broken when he attacked harry, then Harry was the last person he could have attacked. Working backwards, if his mom stood in the way thus creating this protection, she would necessarily be second to last. And James must have been sometime before Harry and Lily as they were the last two people struck. So, while I understand that at the end of GoF, when Voldemort's wand and Harry's wand lock and we see the spells come out of Voldemort's wand in the incorrect order, I don't understand why this is not just a flint. I guess I don't understand logically how if Harry broke Voldemort's power and Lily immediately came before him, how it could be any other order. I think there's just something I'm not getting. help! =) Stacey From karenkyla3 at aol.com Tue Mar 4 14:27:56 2003 From: karenkyla3 at aol.com (karenkyla3 ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 14:27:56 -0000 Subject: DE Identification & the Cold War Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53148 Okay, this has probably been discussed before but I was wondering about something. If the DEs each have a mark, why have they not been rounded up by the MoM in this way? Let's say (as I agree) that this is too easy and some hitch prevents it such as it is only visible to them or V. They still display this by what they call V. In fact, has anybody ever done a study cataloging what each character calls him? It seems that everyone who calls him The Dark Lord is either a DE or a house-elf of a DE, while those aligned with Dumbledore call him you-know-who (of course with a couple exceptions as Harry and Dumbledore call him Voldemort). But this does seem to be a pretty consistent system and may be our clue to determining who spies and/or traitors might be. And while obviously in the book they could not accuse people of being DE just based on what they call Voldemort, one would think it would at least rouse their suspicion or allow for some sort of magical search warrant? Which leads to another thought I'd had - the books have alluded to the paranoia created during Voldemort's previous rise to power. The MoM appeared to use less than honorable tactics to catch DEs and it was mentioned somewhere (I'm sorry I don't use more specific quotes, but I'm at work!) that it wasn't safe to talk to strange wizards, hinting that you didn't know who was sided with whom. The danger alluded to at the end of GoF is that they could be heading that way again. I know a lot of comparisons have been made with WW2 and the Holocaust, but this really reminds me very much of the 'red scare' this country underwent in the Cold War where people were blacklisted and everybody was a communist spy. Interesting that our country in many ways appears to be heading that way again in respect to mideastern terrorists. I wonder how much this factors into J.K.'s thoughts as she is writing? Stacey (Mod note: When responding to this message could everyone remember that while discussing parrallels with the WW is fine, any discussion of current politics is strictly forbidden on this site. Thanks!) From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Mar 4 14:39:25 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:39:25 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wand and Death Order Controversy Message-ID: <7c.3671a4b8.2b96149d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53149 In a message dated 3/4/2003 8:32:20 AM Central Standard Time, karenkyla3 at aol.com writes: > So, while I understand that at the end > of GoF, when Voldemort's wand and Harry's wand lock and we see the > spells come out of Voldemort's wand in the incorrect order, I don't > understand why this is not just a flint. I guess I don't understand > logically how if Harry broke Voldemort's power and Lily immediately > came before him, how it could be any other order. I think there's > just something I'm not getting. help! =) > > Stacey > It was a continuity error that wasn't caught in the editing process. It was corrected in later editions of the book. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ggershman77 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 14:48:22 2003 From: ggershman77 at yahoo.com (ggershman77 ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 14:48:22 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Karkaroff out Lucius Malfoy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53150 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall " wrote: we > also know that Lucius Malfoy and Karkaroff know each other. > > And since they knew each other I figure that that's a) because they > attended Hogwarts together, b) because they were both Death Eaters > together, or c) both. > > I find it hard to believe that Karkaroff wouldn't know that Lucius > was a Death Eater. I mean, sure, it's possible, but given that they > know each other, I still find it hard to believe. Along with the other comments that have been made, I will pose a question: Do we know that Lucius attended Hogwarts? Perhaps he went to Durmstrang, which is how he knows Karkaroff. British tend to have an affinity to sending their kids to their alma maters (Cf. Uncle Vernon sending Dudley to Smeltings). Perhaps that is how he knows him, knows of his similar disposition towards all-things-Muggle, yet does not know that he was a Death Eater. I am being lazy here, since I dont remember if we have canon proof for Lucius attending Hogwarts or not. Greg Harry Potter Prognostications - http://hpprogs.blogspot.com From piskmiffo at hotmail.com Tue Mar 4 14:35:57 2003 From: piskmiffo at hotmail.com (piskmiffo ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 14:35:57 -0000 Subject: Ron is Dumbledore? Was: "bone of the father" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53151 errolowl: >Dumbledore will > have to make sure that whoever goes back is not noticed as being out > of place ? that person *should not be seen* as Hermione keeps > telling us unless that person has already been seen and mistaken for > someone else (Harry seeing himself). Once Dumbledore hears that Frank > mentioned an unknown dark boy, he'll know its ok to send Harry > ? because paradoxically, it means Harry has already been there. > Then again, maybe he needs this time for something else, `cause > Dumbledore already appears to know all ... he did know what should > happen to help Sirius escape even before he had sent H/H back in > time. (When he kept McNair busy in Hagrid's hut giving H/H the > time to get Buckbeak to safety, he knew 3 hours before the events > unfolded didn't he?) > > This brings us back to the discussion on the nature of time > travel...Did DD think up this scheme at the moment of the > "gleam" or had he set this up beforehand, Magic Dishwasher > style? If he just thought it up, how come it had already happened? > (the stranger had been noticed already). If he set it up long ago, > there's a whole lot more to be puzzled through ? and it > should be > right up the alley for those MD service people. Me: I have a very farfetched theory about this. It's really so farfetched that I can't really believe it myself, but it is a possibility, I guess. What if Dumbledore is the future Ron? Let's say that Voldemort is about to kill Harry and noone knows where they are, except for Ron, who is with them. Ron, desperate to save Harry, tries going back in time to do just this, but accidently goes too far back. About 130 years too far. When he realizes where (well, when) he is, who would he first try to find? Marty in BTTF tries to find the doc. Well, the doc in this case, is Dumbledore. But he can't find Dumbledore. Dumbledore is a tall, redhaired (well, auburn in CoS) ~17-year old. Ron is a tall, redhaired 17-year old. Ron already knows everything that has happened, and he knows that the only way to save Harry is to wait 130 years, since he can't, for some reason, go back to the future. That's when it hits him. Why did Dumbledore always seem to know everything beforehand? Because HE was with Harry when it happened, and the things he didn't see for himself, Harry told him. Ron is Dumbledore. Though, Dumbledore!Ron would never have gone to Hogwarts, would he? He needs help to set this up. Who was Dumbledore's partner? Nicolas Flamel. Still very much alive. He finds him, explains certain pieces to him, and lives the rest of his life as Dumbledore. When Harry attends Hogwarts, Ron!Dumbledore DOES know everything, and when Voldemort is about to finish Harry off, he storms in and saves him. Or, if he's dead, he's told someone of the old crowd to save him. Ron!Dumbledore tells him everything. The End. "piskmiffo" From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Mar 4 15:05:00 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 15:05:00 -0000 Subject: Kneazel? In-Reply-To: <20030304030333.80991.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53152 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Petra Pan wrote: > Heidi: > > Does the fact that Crookshanks > > doesn't react negatively to Draco > > indicate that he is neither > > unsavory nor suspicious, and if so, > > what does that mean for his > > character and characterization in > > future books? > > Have we actually seen Crookshanks and > Draco interact? In the same place at > the same time...ever? I can't recall. > Draco, Crabbe and Goyle appear at the door of Harry's compartment of the Hogwarts Express in Chapter 5 of PoA. Crookshanks is last mentioned as sitting on an empty seat. Crookshanks doesn't react to Draco, but then he doesn't react to Crabbe or Goyle either. In fact, that scene could be inserted specifically to establish that Crookshanks *doesn't* react to evil-minded people unless they are consciously perpetrating an untruth. Crookshanks also doesn't react to Snape in the Shrieking Shack, even when Snape is ranting and threatening to turn people over to the Dementors. Crookshanks' limited abilities as a lie-detector are, of course, absolutely crucial to Evil!Lupin theory, since the whole thing depends on an understanding that everything Lupin says in the Shack is literally (and only literally) true. Pippin From jeanneblade at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 14:59:52 2003 From: jeanneblade at yahoo.com (Jeanne Blade) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 06:59:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why didn't Karkaroff out Lucius Malfoy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030304145952.76328.qmail@web14706.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53153 "ggershman77 " wrote: Greg wrote: I dont remember if we have canon proof for Lucius attending Hogwarts or not. Me: We do have canon proof of that. When Harry first meets Draco, he says the following: "I know I'll be in Slytherin, all my family have been." There! All Malfoys have been in Slytherin. Since I'm quite sure that there is no Slytherin House at Durmstrang, therefore Lucius MAlfoy attended Hogwarts. Karkaroff also attended Hogwarts, he says so himself in GoF, something to the effect of (I'm too lazy to look up the exact quote) "Dear old Hogwarts. It's good to be back." All the while wearing a look on his face that clearly says his honest opinion differs(IIRC). -Jeanne Blade, who is wondering to which house on FA she could possibly submit the sequel to her fic. Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.2974023.4304644.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.2974023.4304644.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250; --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gingerssnap1966 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 15:17:59 2003 From: gingerssnap1966 at yahoo.com (gingerssnap1966 ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 15:17:59 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Karkaroff out Lucius Malfoy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53154 Tom Wall wrote: > > I find it hard to believe that Karkaroff wouldn't know that Lucius > > was a Death Eater. I mean, sure, it's possible, but given that > they > > know each other, I still find it hard to believe. > > > > So, why wouldn't Karkaroff out Malfoy to save his own neck? > > Marina replied: > I can think of two possible explanations for this: > > 1. Lucius had already pleaded Imperius by then, and Karkaroff new > about it. In that case, there would've been no point in outing > Lucius. Even if Karkaroff had said, "No, it's a lie, he wasn't > under Imperius," it would've been Lucius' word against his, and > Lucius has a lot of pull. > > 2. Karkaroff was counting on Lucius to help him out once he got out > of Azkaban. After all, Karkaroff would've been in a difficult > position once he got released: a known DE *and* a known informant. > He may have been planning to hit Lucius up for money and protection > and help in leaving the country. Maybe a spot of blackmail, > even: "I didn't give them your name, but I still could if you don't > help me." > Me: I'd like to add a third. When the question was first posed, the first thought that entered my mind was the reply a friend of mine gave the police when asked to turn informer: "You can't protect me enough." (side note: this friend has now amended his ways) Lucius has money, power, and influence. It is possible that Mr Crabbe and Mr Goyle are in positions similar to that of their sons- they seem to exist to do his bidding. Assuming that Karkaroff *did* know about Malfoy, he may have thought that the other names held less potential danger. He may have been waiting to see if they worked, using Malfoy as an ace in the hole, which he didn't need. Ginger, who has learned that the expression "bounced like a ferret" should only be used in HP company. From petra.delisser at postikaista.net Tue Mar 4 15:22:16 2003 From: petra.delisser at postikaista.net (brinforest ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 15:22:16 -0000 Subject: Clash of Heirs, Ron as Heir In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53155 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "karenkyla3 " wrote: > Okay, so I need some help fleshing out a theory. In the Chamber of > Secrets we find out that Voldemort is the heir of Slytherin. Salazar > was pushed out originally by Godric, Helga, and Rowena. Is it > possible that we may have a drawing of the three? That is, the three > decendents of Godric, Helga, and Rowena? Now, their is a decent > amount of evidence that Harry is the heir of Gryffindor (living in > Godric's Hollow, pulling out Godric's sword in the chamber, etc.) > Any thoughts as to the other two? It's interesting that Hermione > embodies many of the ideals of Ravenclaw and Ron many of the ideals > of Hufflepuff. However I would suspect that their placement in > Gryffindor would indicate that they are not the heirs. Though it > would add a great nuance to the triumverate. This is of course just > postulating... > The idea of Harry, Ron and Hermione as the other three heirs is very appealing. And the sorting of the present-day heirs into Gryffindor could very well reflect that to defeat the heir of Slytherin, the other three would need bravery more than anything, and at the same time it could reinforce the theme that ancestry does not determine your strengths and characteristics. But did you already consider the big, looming, morbid fact that comes with this theory? That an heir is the *oldest child*? Someone recently posted (tried to find it now but couldn't - sorry) about whether Ron's Erised image in PS was a terrible foreshadowing - standing alone as Head Boy and Quidditch Captain. Say, do you feel that cold breeze?? Brin From persephone_kore at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 15:15:43 2003 From: persephone_kore at yahoo.com (persephone_kore ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 15:15:43 -0000 Subject: Late Start to Magical Education (Was: Re: WQ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53156 wrote: > Sorry, but I've snipped the entire post. The thrust is that logic > would seem to indicate that magic kids should be much father ahead > of muggle kids when they first come to Hogwarts, and various people > had various explainations. I write: Well, actually the thrust of *my* post was that Hogwarts doesn't appear to assume that any of its students know anything about magic before first year, and that it also appears (probably in part as a result of this) that most magical families don't start teaching their children anything much about how to do magic prior to this point. This was, however, in response to the notion that at the very least familiarity should constitute something of an advantage; I agree that it should make things easier in some ways but get the impression that Hogwarts has designed its curriculum to avoid counting on it. bboy: > But, I don't think they put enough emphasis on the fact that these > kids are 11 years old. PK: I could have missed or failed to remember something (actually, this is almost a given), but I think the post I responded to, at least, contained speculation on what children are taught before age eleven and consideration of the cultural effects of growing up where magic is taken for granted. *If* witch-born children were routinely taught anything about how to do magic prior to Hogwarts, then logically they would be well ahead. This is why I don't think they are. :) If I understand your post correctly (and may be excused for restating it), your viewpoint is that being surrounded by magic does not translate to understanding how it works, especially at that age, and that therefore the advantage conferred by it should be negligible. I actually agree, in part. I believe I mentioned the possibility that growing up around magic would lead to taking it for granted, much as we habitually take for granted the operation of various technologies (I mentioned electronics as an example). On the other hand, magic is simply the way things work, to those who have grown up around it. The children of magical families are likely to come in with a general sort of idea of things that they expect to be done by magic, and no matter how often they're shooed out of the way for more complicated endeavors, I'm not sure how they'd avoid at least hearing the occasional spell and thus having some idea what spells tend to sound like and what some of them do. We appear to be in agreement that few would know the mechanics ahead of time; I am however inclined to think that having some idea what to expect from magic based on observing adults and being accustomed to what it does (not having to ask what a Portkey is or be surprised if the inside of something is bigger than the outside), and growing up with the cultural context of the wizarding world, could be something of an advantage. On the other hand, much as non-native speakers may learn and use better grammar... and tourists may find out and enjoy activities everyone who lives beside them forgets all about... and so on, perhaps there are advantages to coming at things from an outsider's perspective as well. bboy: > So Molly uses magic in the kitchen, so what. My mother uses her own > brand of motherly magic to make delicious pies from scratch, and I > can assure you that at 11 I had no interest in or knowledge of how > these pies got make. All I wanted was to eat them. PK: An excellent point and one that probably applies to many magical children and many spells. On the other hand, I had a *great* time helping in the kitchen. Sometimes you get to taste ahead of time that way, too. ;) There's this one stage in the making of chocolate chess pie... which is wildly off topic, but does point out that there are occasions when children do take an interest in not only the results but the mechanics of what their parents do. Hence, familiarity, whether any formal or informal instruction in *how* to do the spell occurs or not. Of course, cooking is a slightly odd example in HP anyway, since wealthy families may have elves doing it and I somehow don't think any human, much less an eleven year old, is likely to be duplicating house-elf magic. bboy: > Why would magic kids be any different? I certainly knew more about > heavy construction equipment than most kids, but that would have > been worth very little when I start heavy construction equipment > school at age 11. > > See my point here? PK: Yes -- but on the other hand, while you'd have had a very long way to go, you'd still have started off quite a bit quicker than someone like me who might have been scared of the great big machine and couldn't remember where the brake was. (Granted, this makes me sound more like Neville than any of the Muggle-born students I can think of.... Very well, then. Not scared, perhaps, but unsure where to start and without the first clue until told of how to start, stop, how much force it would take to turn....) If the curriculum began with such things as what the basic pedals and levers did, everyone would probably catch up to you fairly quickly. If instead how to get the equipment moving were treated as something everyone ought to know or covered in a very perfunctory manner, there would be a serious muddle and kids who hadn't already had any familiarity would have a much harder time catching up. There would probably also be a higher incidence of injury, I'm thinking. (And if you started out with some students who had never seen a vehicle with an internal combustion engine, perhaps never believed they existed, that might be an even better analogy -- most eleven-year-olds who've ridden in cars probably at least know what the steering wheel does.) Do you see mine? PK From karenkyla3 at aol.com Tue Mar 4 15:37:04 2003 From: karenkyla3 at aol.com (karenkyla3 ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 15:37:04 -0000 Subject: Clash of Heirs, Ron as Heir In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53157 In a post, Brin states: "The idea of Harry, Ron and Hermione as the other three heirs is very appealing. And the sorting of the present-day heirs into Gryffindor could very well reflect that to defeat the heir of Slytherin, the other three would need bravery more than anything, and at the same time it could reinforce the theme that ancestry does not determine your strengths and characteristics. But did you already consider the big, looming, morbid fact that comes with this theory? That an heir is the *oldest child*? Someone recently posted (tried to find it now but couldn't - sorry) about whether Ron's Erised image in PS was a terrible foreshadowing - standing alone as Head Boy and Quidditch Captain. Say, do you feel that cold breeze??" My response: I'm getting chills. I simultaneously don't want to think about it and am seduced by it. While I want to scream, "no, you can't kill them off!", the effect it would have upon Ron's character and adding depth is strangely intriguing. I don't know that I have tons to add other than that it definitely does make you stop and think and I agree with your assertion that the heir would obviously need to be the eldest (which I'm glad you brought to my attention - it hadn't occurred to me). The mirror thing had not occurred to me, but remember that it does not show the future, only his desire which could definitely come back to haunt him, but i don't see it predicting a whole lot. But I could be wrong. Stacey From dorigen at hotmail.com Tue Mar 4 16:31:48 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 16:31:48 +0000 Subject: What about the three Rs? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53158 Many people have discussed the extent to which wizard children know magic before arriving at Hogwarts. Personally, I think it's the same as the extent to which real-world children know reading, writing, etc. before starting school, i.e., it depends on the children (and the parents). However: we know that muggle-born children, like Hermione, and muggle-raised children, like Harry, will have been attending school for some time before they go to Hogwarts. Therefore they know how to read, write, do basic arithmetic, have studied history and geography, etc. But: A) How do wizard children learn these things, if they don't attend school? Do their parents home school them, or are their wizard primary schools? B) In canon, there is no mention of the study of mathematics, history (other than wizard history), literature, etc. at Hogwarts (and no time, considering the schedules the students keep). Does this mean that the students' non-magical education effectively comes to a halt when they go to Hogwarts? I realize that wizards wouldn't need computer science (and probably wouldn't need chemistry or physics), but wizards, unless they are *completely* isolated from the muggle world, will still need (or might be interested in) muggle history, politics, art, literature, and the ability to write well enough to publish ... Janet Anderson (who'd rather be a Squib than never read Shakespeare) * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Mar 4 16:34:03 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 16:34:03 -0000 Subject: Evil!Lupin, and Draco (was Kneazel?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53159 Pippin wrote: > Crookshanks' limited abilities as a lie-detector are, of course, > absolutely crucial to Evil!Lupin theory, since the whole thing > depends on an understanding that everything Lupin says in the > Shack is literally (and only literally) true. ...and I have been meaning to check FBAWTFT about precise Kneazle abilities for some time since this has always struck me as a weak point. It seems unlikely to me - even allowing for dilution by ordinary cat ancestry - that mere literal truth-telling would evade Crookshanks' abilities to spot deception. He knew Sirius was not what he seemed without any lie or half-truth being uttered by him. As far as Draco is concerned one could argue that Crookshanks' lack of interest is evidence that Draco has no concealed intentions, and therefore that his nastiness is not just an act kept up for Lucius' sake. But it's possible that Crookshanks might have some way of understanding what is at stake and would therefore betray no interest. David From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 16:46:39 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (GRACE701 ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 16:46:39 -0000 Subject: Hermione's family/CoS clue (was: Harry's lack of fear) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53160 Anne wrote: >We don't actually *know* that Hermione is an only... we can only >surmise it due to her behavior. When are we going to find out more >about Hermione's family??! I'm dying to know more about how >Hermione became herself. I hope JKR tells us more about them in >OoP. It would be quite interesting if our assumptions about >Hermione's family turned out to be off base... YES!!! I am dying to find out more about Hermione's parents: how they live? Will we ever have the opportunity to read Harry and Ron visiting her house? And how does Crookshanks behave in the house on summer holidays? I have this image that everything is perfect, but that it won't be soon, causing Hermione to have a break down because everything is out of wack at home (and school due to Voldemort.) She never talks about home either. The only insight we've had of her parents are in CoS, but Arthur/JKR conveniently whisked them away so Harry cannot get to know them better in turn not letting us get to know them better. And then in GoF, when she says they want her to use braces for her teeth. Could this possibly be a clue in CoS for future books? Now that the WW is "under attack" will they become more involved in Hermione's schooling. Could they perhaps not let Hermione go back to school because of what has happened in GoF? Do they not know that she is safer at Hogwarts under Dumbledore's (and the rest of the staff's) protection? I'm sure Voldemort wouldn't mind killing her parents, say burn down the house, so he could kidnap Hermione and let muggles think that they whole family burned with the house (no evidence, unless he wants to cause mass confusion/destruction). Then Harry and Ron, heck everyone at this point, would have to go out and look for her. Voldemort would no doubt use someone very close to Harry to lure him back to try to kill him again. Greicy From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Tue Mar 4 17:26:06 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 11:26:06 -0600 Subject: Godric's Hollow Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53161 Carrie: Also, how come it is Lily's sacrifice to save Harry that means anything?? Why didn't James' sacrifice work to protect Lily or Harry? Is that why he stayed and didn't apparate away, turn into a dog and run, or do the Avakedavra spell first - because he was trying to make the sacrifice himself and save the rest of his family?? Taryn: Because Lily had the /chance/ to step aside. James, from what we know from Harry's memories, was not given that. He was simply killed. Lily, however, was told to stand aside, but refused. She might have lived, but gave up her life to protect Harry. Me: I think there's also something special about a mother's love, which may have amplified the protection. I mean, you hear this sort of thing all over, that a mother's love is one of the strongest things possible. I think some protection comes from any sacrifice, but the sacrifice of a mother for her child is probably the most powerful protection, because it's the most powerful love. Hobbit-guy From seventhsqueal at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 16:34:17 2003 From: seventhsqueal at yahoo.com (SeventhSqueal) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 08:34:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Lists D.E. & Malfoy In-Reply-To: <20030304022839.67902.qmail@web13303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030304163417.99017.qmail@web10705.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53162 Greg said: > >I also, for some reason, > >dont see Snape collaborating with Malfoy on > anything >that is outside > >the realm of Dumbledore - Dumbledore is the only > >thing that kept > >Snape from the Dementors. > > >More likely, I think, is that Snape thought that > >Lucius was a benign > >entity, that he could be trusted, at least that he > >was not allied > >with Voldemort. Now he finds out that he is, and > >this compromises > >him in some way. Greg, we have differing opinions on the magnitude of Lucius Malfoy's capability for evil doing. His last name is Malfoy. I don't speak French but doesn't this translate roughly to 'troublemaker' or 'evildoer'? (sorry, please excuse the Bushisms) His first name sounds a lot like Lucifer. He has shown that he can effortlessly open a hell's-mouth worth of trouble in CoS. The man is a snake. Unlike Voldemort, he is an overlooked snake of sound mind and body. It would be dangerous for Harry Potter to dismiss him as just an older version of his son. Fortunately, Harry Potter had the misfortune of having a one-on-one confrontation with him at the end of CoS and he won't. > Melinda: But also, I think that fear of Voldemort, > and of desertion of Voldemort would induce most > Death Eaters to return to the fold *very* quickly. > One big rule for protecting yourself is to make sure > that you haven't teed off someone who is likely to > kill you, such as Voldemort. I put Lucius Malfoy in > that category. 7thSqueal: I agree Lucius had to make an appearance. I imagine he was very curious to see what form Voldemort has taken. He needs to check him out. We differ on opinion about what made Snape react. I want Snape to be a good guy, too. But as things stand, he may be involved in an alternate conspiracy. I'm hoping that he'll go along with this other conspiracy until the last minute, when he takes off his villain mask and saves the day or helps to save the day. TripleAgent!Snape. Melinda: > One problem is that Snape was not explicitly > mentioned by Voldemort after his revival in Chapter > 33. We assume that the Death Eater who has left him > forever is Snape, but knowing JKR, that *may* not be > so. Snape may not have been included in that group > of six that Voldemort dwells on. (3 dead, 1 loyal, 1 > lost, 1 coward.) > > Also, Voldemort, while touring the circle of Death > Eaters, did not stop to talk to them all, nor did he > mention the names of them all. For all we know, > Snape may have been there. (As far as I remember - > someone please correct me if I'm wrong!) Therefore, > Harry doesn't know where Snape is, whether he was > there or not, and to whom he is truly loyal. > (Personally, I think Snape is loyal to Dumbledore, > and that he was not at the DE gathering, but Harry > is not so sure on this point.) I don't have my book with me right now. I will graph out the DE circle and post it tonight. I've never taken the time to sit down and do this before so maybe there's something I've missed. That scene is crucial to the books so it is time to take a magnifying glass to it. Two more thoughts that are too small to post alone. 1) IMHO, Dumbledore trusts Snape. If you can trust someone to be predictable and you understand what motivates them you can trust them. Dumbledore knows what Snape is, and can work with it. He might be keeping his enemy close. 2) There was another thread that was talking about wand cores and the materials used. I thought it would be cool if some of the Slytherins, maybe even Snape, had a Basilisk tooth core. ===== ~SeventhSqueal There's no earthly way of knowing / Which direction we are going / There's no knowing where we're rowing / Or which way the river's flowing / Is it raining? / Is it snowing? / Is a hurricane a-blowing? / Not a speck of light is showing / So the danger must be growing / Are the fires of hell a-glowing? / Is the grisly reaper mowing? / Yes, the danger must be growing / 'Cause the rowers keep on rowing / And they're certainly not showing / Any signs that they are slowing! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From gandharvika at hotmail.com Tue Mar 4 17:54:33 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 17:54:33 +0000 Subject: (FILK) The Goblet Of Fire Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53163 This one wasn't as easy as I thought it would be. The Goblet Of Fire (A FILK to the tune of _We Didn't Start The Fire_ by Billy Joel) To get the gist of it, listen to this Real Audio snippet: http://www.buy.com/retail/music/product.asp?sku=60497528 And then sing along with the Midi if you're so inclined: http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/2256/midis.html Dedicated to Melody Scene: Gail B. (me...heh) is sitting at her reading desk with a copy of GOF, reading it for the umpteenth time. As she reads, the images from the book that are described in the filk are flashing on a screen behind her... Riddle House, Frank Bryce screams, scar's in pain, was it a dream? Dudley's diet, Invitation, Harry wants to go Through the floo, the Weasleys, Arthur's eckeltricity Fred and George, Ton Tongue Toffee, Back To The Burrow Wizard Wheezes, Portkey, Mister Crouch, Weatherby Quidditch Cup, Vicktor Krum, Ireland's won the game Death Eaters, Bagman, Dark Mark's in the sky again Wand gone, who did it? Winky gets the blame The Goblet Of Fire I am so enraptured Reading every chapter The Goblet Of Fire Gonna read it then I'll read it once again Hogwarts, announcement, the Tri-Wizard Tournament Mad-Eye Moody, ferret bouncing, Unforgivables Day before Halloween, Beauxbaton, Madame Maxine Durmstrang, Karkaroff, foreign edibles Goblet, Age Line, Weasley twins can't get by Delacour, Krum, Diggory, Champions chosen Harry's name, he has to play, Ron is mad, wands are weighed Rita Skeeter, interview, "Potter Stinks" buttons The Goblet Of Fire I am so enraptured Reading every chapter The Goblet Of Fire Gonna read it then I'll read it once again Hagrid, Horntail, Sirius says, "Simple spell" First Task, Accio, Egg, Canary Creams House-Elf Liberation, SPEW, find a partner for the Yule At the Ball, Hermione, Ron, Krum, Cho, Igor, Percy Rita's Scoop, giants and Skrewts, clues in the Prefect's bathroom Mister Crouch in Snape's office, The Egg And The Eye Second Task, Gillyweed, Merpeople, Witch Weekly Harry's Heartache, Hogsmeade, Padfoot's now nearby The Goblet Of Fire I am so enraptured Reading every chapter The Goblet Of Fire Gonna read it then I'll read it once again Mister Crouch's madness, dream in Divinations class Headmaster's office, Minister's suspicious D.E. trials, Longbottom, Pensive Four, "I have no son!" Dumbledore's theories, Snape's no longer a D.E. Third Task, obstacles, spider, Skrewt, sphinx's riddle In the center of the maze, (shouted) Port Key Cup takes them away! The Goblet Of Fire I am so enraptured Reading every chapter The Goblet Of Fire Gonna read it then I'll read it once again "Kill the spare", bone, flesh, blood, the return of the Dark Lord D.E.s called, wizard duel, Harry 'gainst You-Know-Who Priori Incantatem, foe glass and Veritaserum Evening's events are described, the gleam in Dumbledore's eye Dementor's Kiss, Dark Mark on Snape, Fudge, The Parting Of The Ways Handshake, Leaving Feast, "Remember Cedric Diggory" Rita Skeeter's secret shown, train stomp, back to Dursley's home (shouted) Want to know what happens next! Have to wait until Phoenix!!!!!!!!!! (at this point, Gail, in frustration, topples over the desk that she is sitting at) The Goblet Of Fire I am so enraptured Reading every chapter The Goblet Of Fire Gonna read it then I'll read it once again (repeat until fade) -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From hphgrwlca at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 17:23:11 2003 From: hphgrwlca at yahoo.com (Christine Acker) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:23:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dumbledore reveals all...? In-Reply-To: <1046749107.7402.15175.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030304172311.19171.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53164 Hello all. Christine here. I wanted to give Aldrea something to cheer about. She said "But, as we don't know the Full Story yet(who knows if we ever will, but I'm still hoping against hope that OotP includes a "Harry, it is time to tell you everything" line from Dumbledore)". http://www.scholastic.com/aboutscholastic/news/press2_01152003.htm and millions of other places have released two quotes from OoP, one of which is: Dumbledore lowered his hands and surveyed Harry through his half-moon glasses. It is time, he said for me to tell you what I should have told you five years ago, Harry. Please sit down. I am going to tell you everything. Hehe! I can't wait! Christine, who is busy composing a very long post containing things which probably have been discussed lots before but might not have been so she will bring them up again __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From happybean98 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 17:35:01 2003 From: happybean98 at yahoo.com (happybean98 ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 17:35:01 -0000 Subject: JKR comparing herself to Dudley? Harry to her sister Di? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53165 I discovered a magazine article written by JKR in the Summer 2002 issue of InsideMS. The link is: www.nationalmssociety.org/IMSSu02-MyMother.asp In the article JKR writes,"A year later my mother gave birth to a fat, blonde baby girl, and two years after that had a skinny, black- haired baby girl-my sister, Di." (I Miss My Mother So Much, Inside MS Summer 2002). These descriptions sound curiously close to the descriptions she gives of Dudley and Harry in PS. Maybe this is why her sister Di enjoyed the first book so much. Could it be that the scenes with Harry and Dudley were humorous reconstructions of their own sibling rivalry? Should we hold out a candle for a redeemed Dudley if this is the case? Another interesting side note about this article is that the picture on the cover of the magazine shows JKR with a diamond ring prominantly displayed on her left ring finger. I noticed this only to hear several months later of her secret wedding at the end of the year. Was this an attempt at a clever clue for her most devoted fans or just a coincidence? Did anyone else notice this? Kathleen From julia at thequiltbug.com Tue Mar 4 18:13:14 2003 From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 10:13:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What about the three Rs? Message-ID: <20030304101314.16398.h012.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53166 Janet wrote: > B) In canon, there is no mention of the study of mathematics, history (other > than wizard history), literature, etc. at Hogwarts (and no time, considering > the schedules the students keep). Does this mean that the students' > non-magical education effectively comes to a halt when they go to Hogwarts? > I realize that wizards wouldn't need computer science (and probably wouldn't > need chemistry or physics), but wizards, unless they are *completely* > isolated from the muggle world, will still need (or might be interested in) > muggle history, politics, art, literature, and the ability to write well > enough to publish ... Me: That really bugs me. Though they probably get a lot of "chemistry" knowledge from Potions, botany from Herbology, biology -in a way- from Care of Magical Creatures, and mathematics from Arithmancy (which is an elective, so not everyone would get it...) I think they do get a lot of writing instruction - just not as a "writing" class. Every time homework is mentioned, it's almost always an essay. So there is a heavy emphasis on writing and research. As a music teacher, I'm appalled by the lack of fine arts instruction. I would think that music would be a way to cast some rather insidious and complex spells (plot bunny breeding here), and that old aristocratic families like the Malfoys would expect their children to have a "classical" background (note the amount of piano-playing!Draco fics out there.) Maybe fine arts classes are offered as electives, but we don't hear about them because H/R/H have no interest. I'm sure Dean Thomas or Colin Creevey would take advantage of an art class since they like drawing/photography. It also seems a shame that Muggle Studies is an elective. I'd think it would be required, at least for pureblood students, so as to minimize any problems that might occur on down the road. Calliope http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/ http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 18:20:09 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (GRACE701 ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 18:20:09 -0000 Subject: James & Lily's Sacrifice (was Godric's Hollow) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53167 Aldrea wrote: >But, then that doesn't make any sense, because >how is it that Lily saved Harry and James didn't? Did Dumbledore >actually state that Lily is what *saved* Harry that night, or that >Lily is just what provides Harry with the protection that saved him >from Quirrellmort..?(Sorry for asking, but tis late. I'll probably >now get ten replies quoting canon at me, but oh well.) My understanding is that Lily sacrificed her life for Harry and that gave him the protection he has. James sacrificed his life for both Harry and Lily. It's just that there's something more to Lily that we, obviously, don't know (can't wait for OoP to know). Could it be that it doesn't have anything to do with magic? What are the possibilities of that!? Greicy From dorigen at hotmail.com Tue Mar 4 18:29:30 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 18:29:30 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Lists D.E. & Malfoy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53168 >Greg, we have differing opinions on the magnitude of >Lucius Malfoy's capability for evil doing. His last >name is Malfoy. I don't speak French but doesn't this >translate roughly to 'troublemaker' or 'evildoer'? >(sorry, please excuse the Bushisms) His first name >sounds a lot like Lucifer. "Malfoy" means "bad faith. I've always thought that "Lucius" was supposed to remind us of "Lucifer," and please note that "Draco" ("dragon") is a traditional symbol for the devil (for example, in the Revelation and in pictures of St. Michael, St. Margaret, etc. triumphing over Satan). For this and other reasons I believe that Draco has the potential to be just as evil as his father; he just hasn't realized that potential yet. I think that a lot of people are going to start showing what they can do in Book 5, and it won't just be "good guys" like Neville and Ginny. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From siriuskase at earthlink.net Tue Mar 4 18:49:43 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 18:49:43 -0000 Subject: Harry's Big Money Gift.... & more on money In-Reply-To: <20030304042504.11270.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53169 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Andrea wrote: > --- siriuskase wrote: > > Now try on the point of view of someone who doesn't believe that Voldy > > exists and therefore, Harry and Cedric's trip to the graveyard didn't > > happen. We know that this is the opinion of at least one of the > > judges. So what officially happened? The simplest and likeliest > > thing is that the two contenders fought near the cup and Cedric was > > killed before anyone ever touched it, then Harry sat there for awhile > > thinking up the story and finally grabbed Cedric's hand, then the cup. > > Cedric never touches it, so Harry is the only winner unless you > > believe the graveyard tale. The Diggory's or the Ministry accepting > > the money from Harry would imply that they must also accept his > > version. > > Well, I like your theory in principle, but it falls down in a few of the > specifics. It says in GOF Ch.35, "He had come back to the edge of the > maze. He could see the stands rising above him, the shapes of people > moving in them, the stars above." So Harry and Cedric disappeared from > the center of the maze, and Harry reappeared with Cedric's body at the > edge. Fudge (and others) disagree as to what *happened* to Harry and > Cedric after they disappeared, but not that Harry made the entire event > up. > > > Andrea > Let me clarify - the nonbelievers believe in only one portkey trip, the one from the center of the maze to the edge. Cedric would have been just about to touch it first before being killed. Harry would have waited awhile before getting a grip on Cedric's body then grabbing the cup. No one on the outside can see the action in the center of the maze (remember two boys firing curses towards each other at the relatively quiet spider between them, heard but not seen), they only see Harry appearing with Cedric in one hand and the cup in the other and the judges think that they know how the cup was programmed to bring the winner directly out of the maze. As a side note, who the hell would design a competition where so much of the action can't be witnessed by either the judges or the spectators? From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Mar 4 18:49:46 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 18:49:46 -0000 Subject: Evil!Lupin, and Draco (was Kneazel?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53170 I wrote: > > Crookshanks' limited abilities as a lie-detector are, of course, absolutely crucial to Evil!Lupin theory, since the whole thing depends on an understanding that everything Lupin says in the Shack is literally (and only literally) true.<< David: > ...and I have been meaning to check FBAWTFT about precise Kneazle abilities for some time since this has always struck me as a weak point. It seems unlikely to me - even allowing for dilution by ordinary cat ancestry - that mere literal truth-telling would evade Crookshanks' abilities to spot deception. He knew Sirius was not what he seemed without any lie or half-truth being uttered by him.< Me: "The Kneazle has an uncanny ability to detect unsavoury or suspicious characters and can be relied on to guide its owner safely home if they are lost." FBAWTFT p. 24. If we agree that Sirius is *not* unsavoury or suspicious, then there is canon that Crookshanks lacked the ability to detect it, since "It was a while before he trusted me." PoA ch 19. My theory is that Crookshanks can tell when people are consciously perpetrating an untruth, but *doesn't * know who is untrustworthy or unsavory. What abrogates his ability to detect Evil!Lupin is not the objective truth of Lupin's words, but that Evil!Lupin is utterly, purposefully and perfectly sure that everything he says is true. Sirius and Peter are, on the contrary, perfectly sure that they are not a dog and a rat, respectively. Pippin From rmm7e at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 18:48:48 2003 From: rmm7e at yahoo.com (Regina ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 18:48:48 -0000 Subject: Hermione's family/CoS clue (was: Harry's lack of fear) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53171 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "GRACE701 " wrote: > YES!!! I am dying to find out more about Hermione's parents: how > they live? Will we ever have the opportunity to read Harry and Ron > visiting her house? snip > Could they perhaps > not let Hermione go back to school because of what has happened in > GoF? Do they not know that she is safer at Hogwarts under > Dumbledore's (and the rest of the staff's) protection? That might be a matter of perspective. As a parent, wouldn't you be a tad concerned that your daughter was petrified, and think that she might be better off at home? I wonder to what extent all the parents were informed about the events in CoS. Hermione was petrified for quite a long time -- were her parents notified, and if so, how did they react? If Dumbledore never told her parents, did Hermione do so, when she got home? We know Harry doesn't bother to tell the Dursleys anything, but that's understandable. But Hermione seems the type to share things with her parents. She gets the Daily Prophet at home; I'm sure her parents look at it, too, although AFAIK there was nothing about the CoS problems printed. (Was there anything printed in the DP after it was over? It would have been nice to publicly exonerate Hagrid.) If Dumbledore never informed the Grangers, isn't that an ethical lapse? He'd certainly be doing what was easy, not right. As always, more questions than answers, Regina From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 18:56:15 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (GRACE701 ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 18:56:15 -0000 Subject: "Silly Little Girl" (was The Potters) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53172 >Tanya wrote: >Ooooooh! I'm so glad somebody brought this up. The constant >repetition of this particular phrase {mostly in regard to Hermione >(and of course, Lily), although Riddle uses a slightly different >version in reference to Ginny - "silly problems of an eleven year >old girl."}, has always intrigued me. >I like your theory of Hermione being a reflection of Lily, it could >make H/Hr shippers happy at any rate! Oh, I always try to hook up H/H, but this time it wasn't done purposely...lol. It's ironic though because Ginny represents her physically, hair color only actually, but now there's the possibility that Hermione has Lily's personality. Could this be a future love triangle? I hope not. That would be so wack. Another person who calls Hermione "silly little girl" AND says "don't speak of things you don't understand" (or something close to that) like Snape is Rita Skeeter. Is there any possible way that Rita is related to Snape and/or Voldemort? Greicy From sevothtarte at gmx.net Tue Mar 4 18:57:54 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 19:57:54 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] DE Identification & the Cold War In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2UNOIGC71YXA6A606RNVTCA1X2VOKLG.3e64f732@tk> No: HPFGUIDX 53173 Stacey wrote: >Okay, this has probably been discussed before but I was wondering >about something. If the DEs each have a mark, why have they not been >rounded up by the MoM in this way? Let's say (as I agree) that this >is too easy and some hitch prevents it such as it is only visible to >them or V. They still display this by what they call V. In fact, >has anybody ever done a study cataloging what each character calls >him? It seems that everyone who calls him The Dark Lord is either a >DE or a house-elf of a DE, while those aligned with Dumbledore call >him you-know-who (of course with a couple exceptions as Harry and >Dumbledore call him Voldemort). But this does seem to be a pretty >consistent system and may be our clue to determining who spies and/or >traitors might be. And while obviously in the book they could not >accuse people of being DE just based on what they call Voldemort, one >would think it would at least rouse their suspicion or allow for some >sort of magical search warrant? As for the Mark, it was apparently a secret (else Snape's explanation at the end of GoF), and even if the MoM knew about it, after Voldy's near-death the Mark vanished, or vanished mostly. It is connected to how strong he is, that's why it's been growing stronger throughout GoF, as again Snape says. If the MoM knew about the Mark during VW I, I wouldn't put it past Crouch to have people line up for examination wether they have it. But that's just Crouch, others might prevent such a disgrace to happen, especially when it comes to the question wether honorable citizens like Lucuis Malfoy should have to undergo it. And while Pettigrew, Snape and Karkaroff all have it on their arms, this might not be the rule and the Mark might be in a place where it's more difficult to spot ("Mind if I shave your head, Mr Malfoy?") >and everybody was a communist spy. Interesting that our country in >many ways appears to be heading that way again in respect to >mideastern terrorists. I wonder how much this factors into J.K.'s >thoughts as she is writing? She surely does approach difficult general topics - racism, prejudice - but I doubt she would and could fit any references to current events into her long-planned series. I know I wouldn't want her too. -Torsten From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 19:09:54 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (GRACE701 ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 19:09:54 -0000 Subject: Ghosts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53174 *If* ghosts have unfinished business, like Moaning Myrtle bothering Olivia Hornby, then why aren't James and Lily ghosts? Did they assume Harry would die? Did they know that everything would turn out right? That Sirius, or Dumbledore, would take care of Harry for them? Do the souls of Avada Kedavra victims get sucked into the wand of the person committing the murder? Now that Priori Incantem was done those souls are freed and James and Lily could help Harry defeat Voldemort. JKR did say that Harry wouldn't see a live James and Lily (can't remember where I read that, Mugglenet.com?), which is obvious, so maybe he'll have their ghosts around. Imagine Lily and James hanging out with him at home. I'd love to see the Dursley's face! =) Now I know there's no canon evidence to this Avada Kedavra theory, but there could be something more to Avada Kedavra that we don't know about. Greicy From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 19:11:31 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 19:11:31 -0000 Subject: Harry's Big Money Gift.... & more on money In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53175 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "siriuskase " wrote: > > ...edited... > > As a side note, who the hell would design a competition where so > much of the action can't be witnessed by either the judges or the > spectators? bboy_mn: First of all, you are assuming that no one could see anything. The hedges are 20ft height, but in a Quidditch game the goal post are at 50ft meaning the gametakes place between 20ft and 100ft with average of 40ft to 60ft high. So it is reasonable to assume that the stands are from 30ft to 70 or 80ft above the ground, which means that people COULD look down into the hedges and see people moving around. The contestants could not be seen by everyone all the time, but they could reasonably be some by many of the people most of the time. And I feel that the Cup was placed in an open area near the end where /most/ people could see the cup being taken. While I have no more proof that people could see than you have proof that people couldn't see, it makes more logical sense to assume that if there are spectators then there is a spectacle that can be seen. Just a thought. bboy_mn From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 19:36:54 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (GRACE701 ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 19:36:54 -0000 Subject: Hermione's family/CoS clue (was: Harry's lack of fear) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53176 I wrote: >YES!!! I am dying to find out more about Hermione's parents: how >they live? Will we ever have the opportunity to read Harry and Ron >visiting her house? > snip >Could they perhaps not let Hermione go back to school because of >what has happened in GoF? Do they not know that she is safer at >Hogwarts under Dumbledore's (and the rest of the staff's) >protection? Rgina wrote: >That might be a matter of perspective. As a parent, wouldn't you be >tad concerned that your daughter was petrified, and think that she >ight be better off at home? >I wonder to what extent all the parents were informed about the >events in CoS. Hermione was petrified for quite a long time -- were >her parents notified, and if so, how did they react? If Dumbledore >never told her parents, did Hermione do so, when she got home? We >know Harry doesn't bother to tell the Dursleys anything, but tht's >understandable. But Hermione seems the type to share things with >her parents. She gets the Daily Prophet at home; I'm sure her >parents look at it, too, although AFAIK there was nothing about the >CoS problems printed. (Was there anything printed in the DP after >it was over? It would have been nice to publicly exonerate Hagrid.) >If Dumbledore never informed the Grangers, isn't that an ethical >lapse? He'd certainly be doing what was easy, not right. I should hope Dumbledore wrote to *all* of the parents of those petrified to let them know what happened. I'm sure he smoothed it out by saying that they will be back to their normal-selves once the mandrakes are ready to unpetrify them, but in any case, being muggles, the Grangers wouldn't understand that concept anyhow. Maybe, being that the book is in Harry's POV, the Grangers did visit Hermione (if there's any possible way for them to get to Hogwarts), but Ron and Harry didn't know it since they were too busy trying to find out how to stop another attack. Therefore, the Grangers were okay with everything seeing as she is still in one piece and breathing and that none of the other petrifiers died. But maybe with the turn of events in GoF, they're afraid she'll get killed because she does hang around Harry. I'm sure Dumbledore will mention in his letter to the parents that Cedric died and Harry had to unfortunately witness the death and escape Voldemort. I can't imagine Hermione not speaking of Harry and Ron so they'll worry about her hanging out with them. I can imagine her keeping her mouth shut about her annual end-of-the-year events from her parents, unless of course there's more to her family than we know. Does anyone want to suggest that perhaps Hermione is not only a witch, but something else? Some superhuman qualities she inherited from her family? Come on, we all know she's not normal...lol. ;) Just a very far-fetched/coming from left field theory on Hermione for a minute. Greicy, whose favorite character is Hermione and who absolutely adores her. =) From karenwickersham at ameritech.net Tue Mar 4 19:38:34 2003 From: karenwickersham at ameritech.net (karywick ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 19:38:34 -0000 Subject: could JKR be making fun of us? /Hermione, Divination In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53177 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Nobodies rib wrote:> > > > Oh no! This makes me wonder... Consider how JKR portrays > Divination: > > mostly rubbish, with (if you actually have the gift for Divination) > a > > VERY occasional on-the-mark prediction - that you don't even > remember > > making once you've done it! This can't be how JKR views *our* > > theories and discussion, can it?... > Then Finwicth wrote: > Maybe it IS! After all, we do try to find what's *likely* to happen > in the future books, and the little clues JKR has given stand for the > rare and *real* prediction... I'm pretty sure I remember a quote which asked her if she read the prediction that were going on on like and she answers that she only did ONE time (after the first or second book)and that she sisn't spead time with it. So I sincerely doubt she's bothering spending time reading this web site, laughing at us or trying to make a point. She's more likey making a point about people who claim t read palms or crystal balls that they probably aren't the "True seers". Maybe the true seer's are people like Harry who do not advertise and sell their gifts. I'd have to look up the exact quote to find where she said the thing about on line I'm at work so I can't now. Another direct quote was that she was stunned wth how closely people had read books and picked up clues by the insightful questions they asked at interviews and how she could answer without giving away the plot of future books. So I believe that more likely some of out predictions are on and uncanningly right but if she was here, she'd never admit it or even try to lead us astray with how well known she is for red-herrings. Hey back in time book 7 theory and MAGIC DISHWASHER people- sure you're not JKR ingcognito? LOL ;o) Kary From karenwickersham at ameritech.net Tue Mar 4 19:38:35 2003 From: karenwickersham at ameritech.net (karywick ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 19:38:35 -0000 Subject: could JKR be making fun of us? /Hermione, Divination In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53178 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Nobodies rib wrote:> > > > Oh no! This makes me wonder... Consider how JKR portrays > Divination: > > mostly rubbish, with (if you actually have the gift for Divination) > a > > VERY occasional on-the-mark prediction - that you don't even > remember > > making once you've done it! This can't be how JKR views *our* > > theories and discussion, can it?... > Then Finwicth wrote: > Maybe it IS! After all, we do try to find what's *likely* to happen > in the future books, and the little clues JKR has given stand for the > rare and *real* prediction... I'm pretty sure I remember a quote which asked her if she read the prediction that were going on on like and she answers that she only did ONE time (after the first or second book)and that she sisn't spead time with it. So I sincerely doubt she's bothering spending time reading this web site, laughing at us or trying to make a point. She's more likey making a point about people who claim t read palms or crystal balls that they probably aren't the "True seers". Maybe the true seer's are people like Harry who do not advertise and sell their gifts. I'd have to look up the exact quote to find where she said the thing about on line I'm at work so I can't now. Another direct quote was that she was stunned wth how closely people had read books and picked up clues by the insightful questions they asked at interviews and how she could answer without giving away the plot of future books. So I believe that more likely some of out predictions are on and uncanningly right but if she was here, she'd never admit it or even try to lead us astray with how well known she is for red-herrings. Hey back in time book 7 theory and MAGIC DISHWASHER people- sure you're not JKR ingcognito? LOL ;o) Kary From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 19:50:08 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 19:50:08 -0000 Subject: Wand and Death Order Controversy In-Reply-To: <7c.3671a4b8.2b96149d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53179 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 3/4/2003 8:32:20 AM Central Standard Time, > karenkyla3 at a... writes: > > > So, while I understand that at the end of GoF, when Voldemort's > > wand and Harry's wand lock and we see the spells come out of > > Voldemort's wand in the incorrect order, I don't understand why > > this is not just a flint. I guess I don't understand logically > > how if Harry broke Voldemort's power and Lily immediately came > > before him, how it could be any other order. I think there's > > just something I'm not getting. help! =) > > > > Stacey > > > > It was a continuity error that wasn't caught in the editing process. > It was corrected in later editions of the book. > > Melissa bboy_mn: The mistake, and it was a mistake, in the orginal book was that James came out before Lily. In the corrected version, Lily comes out first because she died last, the James comes out next because he died previous to Lily. Everything in reverse order. Yes, it was a mistake, and yes, it has been fixed. Now to the other 'mistake' question. Why didn't the Harry/Voldemort Backfire spell come out???? Well how do we know it didn't? With the death curses the dead people come out. With the pain curse (Cruciatus) the pain, actually the screems of the victims comes out. But what is there to come out from the failed curse? The is no dead person's shadow to come out because there is no dead person. So conceivably something did occur that wasn't as dramatic as a head person's shadow or a tortured person's scream. We don't know; we don't know either way, but it's possible. ALso, there is no precedent for what a failed death curse should do, because up until Harry, no death curse had ever failed. So we can't truly call this mistake because we have no way of knowing what was suppost to happen. It's possible the rebounding spell neutralized itself as in +1-1=0. So, until JKR acknowledges it as a mistake and corrects it, it can never truly be more than a mystery. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue Mar 4 19:47:28 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 19:47:28 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A ramble on pre school children and a little socio economic excursus References: <1046749107.7402.15175.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001401c2e286$e4062c20$bb4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 53180 Persephone wrote: >advantage to being *raised* Muggle -- perhaps wizard-raised children >tend to be complacent about magic? Take it for granted, much as some >(most?) of us do electronics and so on? I'm remined of something that my Welsh professor said years ago, which was that first language speakers had the grammar perfect, but didn't understand _why_ they said it that way, whereas second language speakers often struggled to get it right, but tended to understand better that it was based on rules. There's no reference in the books (at least so far) to _theory_ of magic (in the way, say, that a language student might be expected to study grammar and syntax). That may be because it's a heavy and abstruse subject in the WW (and I know I have a mental picture of weighty tomes written in wizard-Latin - probably just becuse I run screaming at the thought of reading philosophy myself!) >I'm inclined to think that what Ron's statement actually reflects, >therefore, is that Hogwarts's curriculum is set up for people who are >starting magic at the very beginning. They might be assumed to have >thought of its existence, even if they didn't believe in it, but the >classes start with the basics, with no prior knowledge assumed (except This could well be so. And there are certain subjects, like history and astronomy, which are in any case factual and don't call for any wandwork. >Arguably, Hogwarts caters to Muggle-borns. No matter what a student >has had the chance to learn ahead of time, everyone starts at the >beginning. This is useful in terms of being sure that *everyone* knows I think that this theory would explain a number of "problems" with canon, particularly the figure for Muggle born students at Hogwarts, and the discrepancy between the student population and the adult population which would be necessary to support the WW infrastructure which we know to exist. All Muggle born children would be expected to accept the invitation, but not all wizard born. (Pause for speculation about what a "Hogwarts education" signifies in the WW?) >accomplish various things. They're still officially restricted from >performing underage magic, though this appears to be given rather >limited enforcement -- I'm inclined to suspect that it's intended >primarily as a security measure against Muggles' learning things. >Still, if Fred and George are being sent home with letters about it, >it's at least supposed to apply to them in theory. The child poking a >slug with his daddy's wand is scolded and has it taken away. I can't really see any justification for the regulation apart from the possible breach of security if kids in mixed or Muggle families are doing "impossible" things all over the place. If you live in a household that runs on magic, then can you really avoid doing a bit, even if it's just the one that flushes the toilet! >To me, nearly all the evidence suggests that the expected thing is for >parents to leave actually *teaching* magic (as opposed to general >awareness of it) to Hogwarts -- I imagine the rationale goes something >along the lines of, "After all, it's there and the children have to A big part of this would be what the WW understands by "childhood". A lot of what we understand by it today stems from the Victorian era, in which children were deprived of participation in the household and teenagers were "infantilised". The WW appears to share a lot in common with pre-Industrial England, in which there was little or no distinction between "home" and "workplace" and in which the children of the family would have played a role in the family's economy. So if mam and dad have a (say) brookstick repairing business, I could see the children being part of that (remember that the grimier and riskier parts of industrial processes also seem to be the ones which are most susceptible to magical methods). So this long ramble leads inexorably to the thought that children in the WW could quite easily be introduced to magic at a fairly early age, at least in a practical sense, perhaps as soon as it manifests itself. Steve wrote further: >But, I don't think they put enough emphasis on the fact that these >kids are 11 years old. >How many muggles really know what their dad does for a living? I don't >mean as in 'my dad builds roads'. I mean exactly what does he have to >do to get these roads built. My dad alway took us out for a Sunday >drive to see the roads he was currently working on and even sometimes >let us ride along in his road grader. So even with that close up >knowledge, I still didn't really know how to build roads. My only riposte to that would be that magic appears to be an attribute rather than a skill. Hogwarts teaches how to direct that magic in particular directions, but if you haven't got it to begin with, then there's nothing to direct. So (as with Harry) when the attribute begins to manifest itself, strange things start to happen (like regrowing your hair overnight, suddenly finding yourself on the roof, etc). Now those things could be extremely dangerous to the child. If Harry had found himself, let's say, in the topmost branches of a tree rather than on the school roof, or in mid air, he could have done himself a nasty mischief. Probably not fatal, but even the non-fatality of it would have drawn speculation about why it wasn't. Which leads me to think that WW children have to be taught at least to control their magical powers as soon as they emerge, just for their safety and the safety of others around them. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 20:47:49 2003 From: morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com (Morgan D.) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:47:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Polyjuice!Arabella and other Polydoubts Message-ID: <20030304204749.25787.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53181 Replying to my post on Arabella and Polyjuice, Pippin said: > I have another to add to the mix. Doesn't it seem a mite > suspicious that we have two sets of twins in Harry's generation > (the Patils and the Weasleys) and none for the Marauder years? And I (Morgan D.) frown and answer: Ahn... no, not really. I dont know what are the statistics for twins, but even if they say there MUST be a set of twins at the Marauder years, its not like we know that many people from those days. There might have been tons of twins. Pippin reminded us: > Now in fan fiction it's usually Remus who has a twin, the > Romulus/Remus connection being irresistable, And of course, Mrs Lupin was a Seer, to name her kids like that. And Pippin suggested: > but here's an alternative: > What if Arabella Figg and Mrs. Lestrange are twins? We don't > have a maiden name for either of them, do we? Suppose that > Quirrell kidnapped Mrs. Figg and smuggled her into Azkaban, > swapping her for Mrs. Lestrange, who then took Mrs. Figg's > place in Little Whinging? Maybe Quirrell and Figg swapped places: Mrs Figg was the one Voldemort used to try to get the Philosophers Stone, and Quirrell is living peacefully in Little Whinging, taking care of Mrs Figgs cats? ^__^ > There'd be no need for polyjuice if the women are twins. As for > the cabbage-y smell...aging potion? Then why didnt Fred and George smell of cabbage when they tried to put their names in the Goblet? (GoF ch16) > Mrs Lestrange may indeed have made more than one attempt to > harm Harry (the funny tasting chocolate cake comes to mind) but > been thwarted by the protections Voldemort speaks of. And how > would he know they're so potent if he hasn't tested them? Now that would be the perfect end for the HP series: Voldemort kills Harry with bad chocolate cakes made by Mrs Figg -- or whoever she is. An ending no one predicted besides us, from the HPfGU! @_@ Later, Pippin added: > Also, a young (and attractive?) woman living on her own in a > suburban neighborhood like Privet Drive would attract a lot more > attention from snoopy neighbors like Petunia than an elderly > widow in the same circumstances. I'm not so sure about that. Isn't she a witch pretending to be muggle? Tell me, which would you suspect to be a witch: a young, attractive woman or a mad old lady living with dozens of cats? Unless that US show about the three young witches ("Charmed"?) has completely annihilated witch lore in Britain... And Kary concluded: > I have a hard time going with all that polyjuice for such a long time > just to impersonate an older person - I'd go with the later reply > (orry I can't remember after reading so many who said it.) - just use > an agining potion whenever you expect to see Harry which I'm sure > wasn't very often. But that is the point: why are we so sure that Mrs Figg is anything BUT an old woman? The only hint that she might be something else that I could find was the cabbage smell (arguably implying the use of Polyjuice), and even that doesn't seem to make much sense. And David wrote: > One possibility is that Polyjuice only works as long as the person > being mimicked is alive. I think there must be some sort of magical > connection to the person: for example, how does Moody's hair contain > the information that he has a missing leg? We can speculate under > this possibility what would happen to a Polyjuice disguise if the > original suffers injury or death while the disguise is in force. Oops... you have a point. This is more than simple DNA if Moodys hair is aware of his injuries. But as Errol also pointed out in his post, Barty Jr didn't suffer with Moody's confinement in that trunk, so there can't be a direct link. And if Moody's health doesn't affect Barty's, why would his death be a problem? And Errol theorized: > I tend to think you get a version of > the person as of the moment you "stole" some of their > essence. Which is why Barty would have had to set aside his supply of > MoodyHair before Moody became thin & starved Yeah, but didn't Crabbe and Goyle got drugged before Ron and Harry got samples of their hair? Wouldn't they have felt groggy then? And David wrote also: > I agree that the timescale is very tight for the whole Moody kidnap > sub-plot, and it stretches credibility. Why did Voldemort leave it > so late? However, perhaps the wording of Crouch's confession may > just indicate his very strong identification with Voldemort and his > gang. So, we can interpret this passage along the lines > of: "Wormtail and I kidnapped Moody. We the conspirators had > already prepared the potion." Yeah, that could work. I doubt it was what JKR had in mind when she wrote those lines, but your interpretation would save her from my accusing math. Good point. Morgan D. Hogwarts Letters - http://www.hogwartsletters.hpg.com.br __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 20:48:49 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 20:48:49 -0000 Subject: Late Start to Magical Education (Was: Re: WQ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53182 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "persephone_kore " wrote: bboy_mn again with a preface: I don't think you and I are that far off in our opinions. And I wasn't some much responding to you directly, as I was to the tone of the general threat which seemed to be unconsciously looking at these kids as adults or sort of, adult-like; coming to school with adult minds and experience and an adult approach to life. Their kids, they spend their time running and playing. > wrote: > > The thrust is that logic ... indicate(s) ... magic kids should be > > much father ahead of muggle kids ... > > I write: (persephone_kore) > Well, actually the thrust of *my* post was that Hogwarts doesn't > appear to assume that any of its students know anything about magic > before first year, ... bboy_mn: ... and Hagrid tells Harry as much, 'everyone starts at the beginning at Hogwarts'. (not an exact quote, but close enough) There are some kids who come to school with a great deal of knowledge; Snape and Hermione. Just as you pointed out that some kids like myself, know more about heavy construction equipment, and you know more about Chocolate Chess Pie (...mmmmmmmmm.... :P Have you got the recipe, or I'd settle for at least a good picture?). Some kids start Kindergarden (in the US) with tremendous reading skills, but none the less the teacher starts from the begining and teaches everyone the basics. Magic kids like Ron come to school with a great deal of knowledge of the Magic WORLD, but only a general knowledge of magic. We see this in Harry and Ron's relationship. Harry doesn't envy Ron knowledge of magic because they are about the same, but he does envy Ron's knowledge of the magic world. It's this cultural knowledge not applied knowledge that gives magic kids an advantage. -end this part- > > bboy: > > But, I don't think they put enough emphasis on the fact that these > > kids are 11 years old. > > PK: > ... the post I responded to, ... speculation on what children are > taught before age eleven... > > *If* witch-born children were routinely taught anything about how to > do magic prior to Hogwarts, then logically they would be well ahead. > This is why I don't think they are. :) > bboy_mn: There is the Restriction for Underage Wizardry; in the copy I have, Section TWO deals this children in school not being allowed to use magic outside of school. Section ONE deal with pre-school children NOT being allowed to use magic at all. Obviously, if you are not allowed to use magic outside of school and you are too young to be enrolled in school, then you are not allowed to use magic. That doesn't seem like muc of a stretch of logic. Again, these are not absolute, Fred and George are using magic up in their bedroom all the time, but since it is a minor infaction that doesn't take place where it can be seen or detected by Muggle's I don't think the Ministry cares. It's just too low a priority to chase after every magic kid in the magic world who is making a little magic mischief. But if magic mischief becomes magic trouble then they don't hesitate to step in. The same goes for people like Snape, if he was away from muggles and with adult supervision and wasn't causing any damage or harm when he was learning magic, then the Ministry saw it as a low priority. If it doesn't effect public safety or compromise wizard secrecy, then they have more important things to deal with. Based on this, I have to agree that the school assume that all student generally come to the school with no more than a casual knowledge of magic. -end this part- > > Do you see mine? (point) > > PK bboy_mn: Yes, magic kids do have a cultural advantage in that they know all about the wizard world. Things that Harry finds fascinating, Ron finds boring and ordinary. So there is a familiarity that does give them some general advantage but when it comes to applied knowledge of the school's curriculum, there isn't that much difference between magic and muggle. Just a few more thoughts. bboy_mn From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 21:25:40 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 21:25:40 -0000 Subject: Ghosts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53183 Greicy wrote: *If* ghosts have unfinished business, like Moaning Myrtle bothering Olivia Hornby, then why aren't James and Lily ghosts? I reply: It's Olive Hornby, BTW. ;-) Well, we can only speculate here, but I don't think it's reasonable to assume that parents who want to raise their kids have unfinished business, necessarily. What I mean to say is, there must be something else, otherwise everyone would become a ghost and no-one would die, right? We'd all be back as ghosts, unless we were ready to go. In that light, then Cedric should be a ghost, since I'm sure he wasn't ready, and everyone else that Voldemort murdered along with him. Sadly, I just don't think that it works that way. What we know of Moaning Myrtle was that she felt taunted by this Hornby girl ? I'd say that Olive pretty much made her life miserable. Even in death, Myrtle is terribly, comically sensitive about everything. I'd say that her desire for revenge was fairly strong, maybe even overwhelming. My guess is that what Myrtle needs is acceptance of some sort, which she hasn't really gotten yet. But I'd assume that this haunting of Olive didn't necessarily achieve the objective, since Myrtle's still around. Speaking of which, it begs the question why all of these ghosts are at Hogwarts in the first place, right? I mean, it's not necessarily a foregone conclusion that they all died there. So, if they have unfinished business, why aren't they *finishing* it? Greicy wrote: Do the souls of Avada Kedavra victims get sucked into the wand of the person committing the murder? Now that Priori Incantem was done those souls are freed and James and Lily could help Harry defeat Voldemort. I reply: No, what we saw as a result of Prior Incantatem is what Dumbledore describes as an 'echo,' and he is careful to correct Harry when he uses the term `ghost' by mistake "All that would have appeared is kind of a reverse echo. A shadow of the living Cedric " "He spoke to me," Harry said. He was suddenly shaking again. "The... the ghost Cedric, or whatever he was, spoke." "An echo," said Dumbledore, "which retained Cedric's appearance and character." (GoF, US hardcover, Ch.36, 698) Remember when Amos Diggory used Prior Incantato in GoF Ch.9 to recreate the Dark Mark from Harry's wand? It shows us what Harry perceives as looking "as though it were made of thick gray smoke: the ghost of a spell." (GoF, US hardcover, Ch.9, 136) Harry doesn't know any better and perceives it as a 'ghost of a spell.' It's really just an 'echo' of "MORSMORDRE!" Incidentally, that's a terrifying incantation for a spell, IMO. All that the induced Priori Incantatem shows us in the graveyard scene are the results of the spells that were cast from the wand, in reverse order. That's why we hear screams, and see echoes emerging, and so forth. As for Avada Kedavra, do you think there's more to learn? I dunno. We know a lot already: it's use results in a life sentence in Azkaban, it's unblockable, it involves a green light, it requires a very powerful magic behind it (Moody's "nosebleed" quip in Ch. 14), and it results in a death with no noticeable cause, which, I guess, for those who know what to look for, *is* the noticeable cause. ;-) I wonder what she could add to that. Well, if there's more, I'm sure it'll be good. ;-) -Tom From devika at sas.upenn.edu Tue Mar 4 21:29:16 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 21:29:16 -0000 Subject: Polyjuice!Arabella and other Polydoubts In-Reply-To: <20030304204749.25787.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53184 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Morgan D." wrote: > > > And Pippin suggested: > > > There'd be no need for polyjuice if the women are twins. As for > > the cabbage-y smell...aging potion? > > Then why didn't Fred and George smell of cabbage when they tried to put > their names in the Goblet? (GoF ch16) > Well, they did only take a few drops each... ;) > > But that is the point: why are we so sure that Mrs Figg is anything BUT > an old woman? The only hint that she might be something else that I > could find was the cabbage smell (arguably implying the use of > Polyjuice), and even that doesn't seem to make much sense. Yes, I've always found this interesting. I actually came up with the possibility that Mrs. Figg might be a younger witch in disguise by myself, and then I was surprised that so many other people thought so too. I think that, for me at least, it was not so much a prediction as some wishful thinking. I would like to believe that Arabella Figg (or whomever she may actually be) is the same age as MWPP. That's just because we know so little about the members of that generation, especially Lily, and I wanted to have a character that would provide some means of finding out more about them. I also think it would be nice to have an eligible lady for my favorite fugitive (or werewolf, for that matter) . Basically, my wish came first, and the evidence followed after. I would venture to say that a lot of theories arise in this way. Someone might think, "Wouldn't it be nice if so-and-so happened?" and then realize, "Oh, maybe it *could* happen! Here's the evidence..." ...and thus a theory is born :) Devika From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 21:33:58 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 21:33:58 -0000 Subject: Weasley deaths & Re: Clash of Heirs, Ron as Heir In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53185 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "karenkyla3 " wrote: > In a post, Brin states: > "The idea of Harry, Ron and Hermione as the other three heirs is very > appealing. > > But did you already consider the big, looming, morbid fact that > comes with this theory? That an heir is the *oldest child*? > > Someone recently posted (tried to find it now but couldn't - sorry) > about whether Ron's Erised image in PS was a terrible foreshadowing - > standing alone as Head Boy and Quidditch Captain. Say, do you feel > that cold breeze??" > >Stacy responded: > > I'm getting chills. I simultaneously don't want to think about it > and am seduced by it. While I want to scream, "no, you can't kill > them off!", the effect it would have upon Ron's character and > adding depth is strangely intriguing. > The mirror thing had not occurred to me, but > remember that it does not show the future, only his desire which > could definitely come back to haunt him, but i don't see it > predicting a whole lot. But I could be wrong. My turn: I've got chills, too. I adore the Weasleys, but now I *almost* want to see this plot line followed through. (And remember - if Ron needs to be the oldest Weasley in this situation, that means the Ginny doesn't have to die.) One of the ways I can see this developing Ron's character: his jealousy of Harry would be curbed. He would see that although Harry does have a vault of gold, etc., nothing makes up for losing your parents. This could be, perhaps, the only way for Ron to truly see how fortunate his life is and how his Harry-jealousy is pretty much in vain. Also, although the mirror doesn't predict the future, isn't one of the worst feelings in the world when you wish for something, get it, and realize it ain't all it's cracked up to be. (ie, "careful what you wish for...") So we've got Ron, who's both jealous of his older sibling's accomplishments as well as feeling pressure to live up to those accomplishments. And you just know that he's had those moments where he wished he were an only child - or at least wished that Bill, Charlie, Fred, and George weren't around to make him feel that jealousy and pressure. We've seen evidence of this when he looked in the mirror of Erised and was standing by *himself*. (No images of his parents or siblings standing and cheering him for his accomplishments.) But then, much to Ron's horror, his deepest, darkest wish actually comes true (and family members die), and not only does he have to deal with that grief, but also with the deep semi-secret that he had sort of wished that it would happen. Oh, poor Ron! - Nobody's Rib From ecprincess78 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 18:12:36 2003 From: ecprincess78 at yahoo.com (Leah Jamison ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 18:12:36 -0000 Subject: Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53186 "Juliet " wrote: >>Taryn: Because Lily had the /chance/ to step aside. James, from what we know from Harry's memories, was not given that. He was simply killed. Lily, however, was told to stand aside, but refused. She might have lived, but gave up her life to protect Harry. >>Aldrea One could argue that James also had the chance to get away but he still made that decision to stand and fight. He could have *attempted* to run, is the point I am trying to make. But he decided to go down fighting. Which, one could argue, really isn't any different than Lily's decision to stand and protect Harry. Now Leah: Here's another thought to add to the pot: Why didn't James' sacrifice protect both Harry and Lily? (if, indeed, the sacrifice James made counts for anything). We may see later... Leah, who really should be working productively at her job... From stillert at jaynet.wcmo.edu Tue Mar 4 18:58:48 2003 From: stillert at jaynet.wcmo.edu (myguyscockers ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 18:58:48 -0000 Subject: James & Lily's Sacrifice (was Godric's Hollow) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53187 > Aldrea wrote: > >But, then that doesn't make any sense, because > >how is it that Lily saved Harry and James didn't? Did Dumbledore > >actually state that Lily is what *saved* Harry that night, or that > >Lily is just what provides Harry with the protection that saved him > >from Quirrellmort..?(Sorry for asking, but tis late. I'll probably > >now get ten replies quoting canon at me, but oh well.) > > > " Greicy wrote > My understanding is that Lily sacrificed her life for Harry and that > gave him the protection he has. James sacrificed his life for both > Harry and Lily. It's just that there's something more to Lily that > we, obviously, don't know (can't wait for OoP to know). Could it be > that it doesn't have anything to do with magic? What are the > possibilities of that!? > > The way I see it is that Voldemort meant to kill James so his death wasn't a scarifice. He didn't plan to kill Lily so her death was a scarifice. This appears to be one of the areas where Voldemort is not paying attention to all of the ramifications of people's actions and how those actions can call on very basic but powerful magic. I think this lack of attention will cost him in the future. Tamariscus (I just joined :)) stillert at jaynet.wcmo.edu From vincentjh at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 20:34:33 2003 From: vincentjh at yahoo.com (vincentjh ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 20:34:33 -0000 Subject: Clash of Heirs In-Reply-To: <3E63DB38.000004.39131@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53188 Kathryn wrote: > I quite like your theory of the heirs and agree that there has been quite a > bit of circumstantial evidence that Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor - > although imho it's no more convincing than the circumstantial evidence that > led the student body to believe that he was the heir of Slytherin, so maybe > JKR is paralleling the way the students were fooled into believing that > Harry was the Heir of Slytherin by fooling her readers into jumping to the > conclusion that Harry is the heir of Gryffindor. Personally I would be > happier making Ron the Heir of Gryffindor. If courage is the biggest > defining characteristic of Gryffindor then I truly believe Ron is the > bravest of the trio. Harry doesn't usually seem to really recognize how much > danger he is in till after the event and I don't believe you can claim to be > brave without experiencing fear. Ron strikes me as the true hero of PS > because he willingly sacrifices himself for his friends. Also in CoS he > faces something he is terrified of in order to help Harry and Hagrid. But > then I may well be biased because Ron is one of my favourite characters. > There have been a lot of theories floating around about Harry being the heir of Gryffindor, mostly based on the fact that he "pulled out" Godric's sword. However, I've always read this passage differently. When Dumbledore said that only a true Gryffindore could pull out that sword, I thought it left open the possibility that other people from Gryffindore House could do it, too. (And remember, Harry didn't pull out the sword. It fell on his head. Just like a lot of things simply happened to Harry without him seeking for them to happen.) But maybe I read it wrong. Will have to go back and check CoS again. Although I don't usually buy into the "heir" theory for it defeats JKR's own claim that choice is more important than what one is given at birth,the idea that Ron's the heir is interesting. Everyone from his family is/was in Gryffindore. And Dumbledore said in CoS that it is one of the most prominent wizard families. This has always made me wonder whether or not there's more to the family and to Ron than what we can see on the surface. Maybe not the heir per se, but something else that connects them to the founders of the school. Just a thought. VJH From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Mar 4 20:44:54 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 20:44:54 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ghosts References: Message-ID: <3E651046.000001.66987@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 53189 Greicy wrote- *If* ghosts have unfinished business, like Moaning Myrtle bothering Olivia Hornby, then why aren't James and Lily ghosts? Did they assume Harry would die? Did they know that everything would turn out right? That Sirius, or Dumbledore, would take care of Harry for them? Do the souls of Avada Kedavra victims get sucked into the wand of the person committing the murder? Now that Priori Incantem was done those souls are freed and James and Lily could help Harry defeat Voldemort. JKR did say that Harry wouldn't see a live James and Lily (can't remember where I read that, Mugglenet.com?), which is obvious, so maybe he'll have their ghosts around. Imagine Lily and James hanging out with him at home. I'd love to see the Dursley's face! =) Now I know there's no canon evidence to this Avada Kedavra theory, but there could be something more to Avada Kedavra that we don't know about. Now me - Could that be why Avada Kedavra is one of the Unforgiveables. I always assumed (so forgive me if I missed something) that it was illegal to perform these curses *no matter what the circumstances*. So surely there must be something kore to it than it simply killing the victim or wouldn't it be allowed in self-defence? Take this possible scenario for example - Voldemort (and one or more minions) turns up at Godric's Hollow and confronts James, instead of yelling at Lily to get away with Harry, James uses that time to raise his wand, point it at Voldemort and cast Avada Kedavra. Surely that would be acceptable if all the curse did was kill. There could be no doubt that Voldemort hadn't just popped in for a cup of tea but was instead a real and present threat to James' life and the lives of his wife and child. When facing an evil dark wizard intent on killing you and your family the killing Curse could surely be seen as self-defence. If there were circumstances when the curse was allowable then I doubt it would be on the Unforgivables list. It's use for other reasons would simply be covered under the homicide laws (which i assume there are because I assume that's what Sirius was convicted for). Whatever spell Peter used to kill those muggles and fake his death isn't on the list of Unforgivables so surely there must be *something* about Avada Kedavra other than the fact that it kills people. The other Unforgivables are there for obvious reasons. Cruciatus has no practical use other than torture (afaik), Imperio just freaks me out on so many levels, it's a total infringement of human rights - taking away the free will of its subject. It actually scares me more than the others because presumably, the person in question knows exactly what they are doing but is unable to prevent it happening. *shudder* Anyway, my personal feelings about Imperio aside, I can understand why they are Unforgivable curses, but Avada Kedavra is supposedly the worst of these. How is it any worse than blowing someone up (in the Pettigrew manner not the Aunt Marge effect) to kill them? In fact snce it's a nice clean and, by the looks of it, painless death surely it's a better fate than that? Some might even argue a better fate than what happened to the Longbottoms. And yet the WW sees it as the worst of the curses - nonsensical. Unless as Greicy suggests it somehow steals the spirits/souls/whatever yo want to call them of its victims. Wouldn't a WW that *knows* of the existance of a spirit/soul/whatever that can exist beyond the physical death of the body (because after all ghosts are a pretty good example of that) consider that to not only kill your enemies but forever trap their essence within your wand to be a fate far worse than death. A fate worth the designation as the worst of the Unforgiveables? And on that note I think the apparitions were sucked back into the wand, but I don't remember exactly and don't have my book to hane, in which case I would assume they could only be finally freed by the destruction of Voldemort's wand. If so I forsee a moving end to book 7 where Harry (possibly accompanied by Remus and Sirius) destroys Voldemort's wand and is able to say a final goodbye to James and lily (and of course all the other souls trapped in the wand) - possibly with James letting Sirius know that he isn't to blame for what happened at godric's Hollow and allieviating his guilt. It would be a nice end, providing some measure of closure for Harry (James telling him he's proud of him/Lily saying she loves him perhaps) and Sirius, allowing them to entrust a nearly adult Harry admittedly but still their child, to the care of Sirius and remus and reducing a large chunk of the readership (well me certainly) to tears. K From heather.hildebrandt at ncmail.net Tue Mar 4 21:28:28 2003 From: heather.hildebrandt at ncmail.net (netfrog6 ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 21:28:28 -0000 Subject: Late Start to Magical Education (Was: Re: WQ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53190 > bboy_mn: > > Yes, magic kids do have a cultural advantage in that they know all > about the wizard world. Things that Harry finds fascinating, Ron finds > boring and ordinary. So there is a familiarity that does give them > some general advantage but when it comes to applied knowledge of the > school's curriculum, there isn't that much difference between magic > and muggle. > > Just a few more thoughts. > > bboy_mn I have been following this thread since I joined and each time I see the argument presented that those raised in the WW would have an advantage, the converse screams in my head. Personally if I were presented with magic and all that it can accomplish, I would be more apt to believe that anything (or most anything) were possible through magic. And with that belief, I think a student may inherently understand the fundamentals of magic and try things that wizard bred student wouldn't think to try. I think Hermione is a perfect example- rather than just using spells that she has heard or learned, she invents spells on the fly. (or so I contend... I personally don't think "alohomora" came from any book of spells- I think she was combining a muggle word for goodbye, while a wizard would have used the latin for goodbye or remove.) They may not be text book examples of how it *should* be done, but they work. Just as a child picks up his parents' idioms, a wizzard raised child may know (and only think to use) spells that he has heard his parents' use. Not being able to think "outside" the box as it were would be a limitation. So Hogwarts brings the students together to the beginning teaching the theory to the Wizard born (excitement- magic is NOT mundane) and teaching the structure (and maybe limitations) to the muggle born. Just a thought. Heather (very much enjoying this group) From julia at thequiltbug.com Tue Mar 4 22:11:19 2003 From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 14:11:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Weasley deaths Message-ID: <20030304141119.6574.h015.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53191 Nobody's Rib wrote: >(And remember - if Ron needs > to be the oldest Weasley in this situation, that means the Ginny > doesn't have to die.) me: That would set the stage for some good Ginny-Ron bonding; I get the sense that they used to be close but drifted once Ron went off to school. Nobody's Rib wrote: > > One of the ways I can see this developing Ron's character: his > jealousy of Harry would be curbed. He would see that although Harry > does have a vault of gold, etc., nothing makes up for losing your > parents. me: I wish he could learn it in a less drastic manner; but it would make for high drama, especially if they died at Voldemort's hands; then he and Harry would have something in common. Though how Voldie could go after Mr/Mrs Weasley, Bill, Charlie, Percy, Fred and George and not Ron-Ginny in book 5 would be complicated to set up since F-G would still be in school. Nobody's Rib wrote: > > Also, although the mirror doesn't predict the future, isn't one of > the worst feelings in the world when you wish for something, get it, > and realize it ain't all it's cracked up to be. (ie, "careful what > you wish for...") me: Which would be right up there with the other morals of the story (ie, "choices, not blood, determines who we are"). Nobody's Rib wrote: >But then, much to Ron's horror, his deepest, > darkest wish actually comes true (and family members die), and not > only does he have to deal with that grief, but also with the deep > semi-secret that he had sort of wished that it would happen. Oh, > poor Ron! me: Which would set up for some *serious angst*. (Plot-bunnies are breeding like mad...must stop them...) Calliope http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/ http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ From heidit at netbox.com Tue Mar 4 22:17:37 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 17:17:37 -0500 Subject: FILK: Come On Down To Nimbus and... Message-ID: <003f01c2e29b$dfed14e0$9865fea9@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 53192 In honor of the launch of the Nimbus - 2003 List of Presentations & Panels, which you can find here - http://www.hp2003.org/nimbuspgmtrack.html - Gail Bohacek and I wrote this filk, with help from Nimbus - 2003 chair Gwendolyn Grace - it covers a number of the event's offerings and is an homage to Jim Dale, who originated the role of Barnum (the show where the base song originated) and who does the wonderful audio versions of the Harry Potter books. Original lyrics are here: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=332C3DA 1.39F7%40together.net The Nimbus - 2003 Song Dedicated to Jim Dale, who's been nice about our annihalation of Barnum lyrics before. What a treat, we'll have a Welcome Feast (neat)! Lots of pizza, lots of fun at Nimbus. With a gall'ry, and Kumpulsieve Alley, Now see the list of subjects that'll be discussed: Experts on fan-fic, a class on making Spotted Dick, Gwen and John on Pagans and we'll talk about Snape's hair! Also we'll hear people's views about how some folks misconstrue The books in ways that really aren't very fair. Canon's function and interpretation Reproductions of the game of Quidditch. Hero's journey, literary theory, Publishing on Potter and of course those SHIPs. Magic meets technology, wizarding geography, Ron is evil - no he's not - does anybody care? Textual minorities, family and authority - Literary criticism everywhere! Legal dramas, and of course Marauders, Deconstructing Harry and Scholastic This is Nimbus, ya don't wanna miss it Come on down and Come on down and Come on down and be an HP LOONatic. Banning books! And Draco's looks! Kitschy stuff from corp'rate crooks. Dance in our club - a Harry Potter paradise. Hottest thing we've gotten is our movie spot so come on in CoS and PS - Gonna show them twice! Christians! Austen-- isn't it exhaustin'? Got no rabbi, but a cantor's comin' Come to Nimbus, no, you shouldn't miss it! Come around this summer an'a Come around this summer an'a Come around this summer an' we'll all have fun! Heidi Tandy Team Nimbus - 2003 http://www.hp2003.org PS - remember that registrations are available a the current rate through March 15, and then they go up a bit From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 22:22:46 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall ) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 22:22:46 -0000 Subject: Ghosts In-Reply-To: <3E651046.000001.66987@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53193 Kathryn wrote: Take this possible scenario for example - Voldemort (and one or more minions) turns up at Godric's Hollow and confronts James, instead of yelling at Lily to get away with Harry, James uses that time to raise his wand, point it at Voldemort and cast Avada Kedavra. Surely that would be acceptable if all the curse did was kill. There could be no doubt that Voldemort hadn't just popped in for a cup of tea but was instead a real and present threat to James' life and the lives of his wife and child. When facing an evil dark wizard intent on killing you and your family the killing Curse could surely be seen as self-defence. If there were circumstances when the curse was allowable then I doubt it would be on the Unforgivables list. I reply: "The Aurors were given new powers ? powers to kill rather than capture, for instance. And I wasn't the only one who was handed straight to the dementors without trial. Crouch fought violence with violence, and authorized the use of the Unforgivable Curses against suspects." (GoF, US hardcover, Ch.27, 527) So, we know that the Aurors, at least, were given that authority when things were dire. I'm guessing, too, that James probably could have gotten away with using it if he'd been able to. But I was always of the opinion that Voldemort was a far more powerful wizard than James. Maybe it wouldn't have worked. Maybe it tires you out too much, since we know that it requires a powerful bit of magic behind it to work. Maybe James just thought that he'd be moral, right? I mean, no matter what the case, some people just would prefer the baddie to be locked up in Azkaban or something, right? Some people are just too moral to have blood on their hands. -Tom From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Mar 4 22:44:26 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 22:44:26 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ghosts References: Message-ID: <3E652C4A.000001.66987@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 53194 Tom said: "The Aurors were given new powers ? powers to kill rather than capture, for instance. And I wasn't the only one who was handed straight to the dementors without trial. Crouch fought violence with violence, and authorized the use of the Unforgivable Curses against suspects." (GoF, US hardcover, Ch.27, 527) So, we know that the Aurors, at least, were given that authority when things were dire. I'm guessing, too, that James probably could have gotten away with using it if he'd been able to. I reply - OK that does blow a bit of a hole in my theory. It does raise another question though. If the fact that Aurors were given powers to kill rather than capture was considered something worth remarking on then presumably it s something they weren't allowed to do before. Which strikes me as odd. I mean yes policeforces are supposed to arrest suspects with minimal force but I don't know of any country where it is illegal for them to kill in self defence. OK yes in the UK it woud be difficult for your average policeman to do so - but only because they don't carry guns not because it's actually illegal to do so. And all Aurors carry wands so it's not a case of them being unarmed. The other possible interpretation for this is that it means they're allowed to kill them for reasons other than self defence ie execute them rather than arrest them - which would imho make it a toss up which side is actually worse - Voldemort or the Ministry. Tom also said - But I was always of the opinion that Voldemort was a far more powerful wizard than James. Maybe it wouldn't have worked. Maybe it tires you out too much, since we know that it requires a powerful bit of magic behind it to work. Maybe James just thought that he'd be moral, right? I mean, no matter what the case, some people just would prefer the baddie to be locked up in Azkaban or something, right? Some people are just too moral to have blood on their hands. To which I reply - And it wouldn't have been worth a try anyway? I mean it doesn't look to me like AK could make things any worse for James if it backfired. To put it in muggle terms - a guy breaks into your home, points a gun at you and is clearly planning to kill you and your family. You also have a gun (your only defence in fact) but it has a 90% chance of misfiring and doing no damage - wouldn't you pull the trigger anyway in the hope that you'd get lucky? And I would accept the arguement that James would not want blood on his hands if it had been just his life at risk. I could see him possibly sacrificing his own life rather than kill, but that wasn't the case. He was defending his family as well as himself. I don't know that there would be many people who would be willing to give their own life but not be willing to compromise their own morals and possibly spirit/soul whatever (assuming that wizards have some kind of afterlife heaven/hell thing, which we don't know they do) to protect their child (especially when the child in question is a baby). K From ladyfarro at attbi.com Tue Mar 4 20:32:00 2003 From: ladyfarro at attbi.com (kae) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:32:00 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Big Money Gift.....(Was: Clues from GoF) References: Message-ID: <021e01c2e291$4702db20$3caae10c@attbi.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53195 My take on this is, that Ron would not take the money! He only allowed Harry to buy him the set of omnioculars because he tried to pay Harry back when the leprechauns threw down gold coins at the Quiditch World Cup: "something like golden rain seemed to be falling from it "excellent!" yelled Ron as the shamrock soared over them, and heavy gold coins rained from it, off their heads and seats. "There you go", Ron yelled happily, stuffing a fistful of gold coins into Harry's hand, "for the omnioculars!" ." There are several instances in GoF where George and Fred's need for money to start up the joke shop is mentioned. Harry realized that the only way he could help the Weasleys was to give his winnings to George and Fred with the understanding that they would purchase dress robes for Ron. Ron hated being poor, and yet, he was proud and wouldn't have taken any money without wanting to pay back what he was giving. Lady Farro From mbarclay at lee.edu Tue Mar 4 23:01:19 2003 From: mbarclay at lee.edu (Barclay, Maggie) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 17:01:19 -0600 Subject: How was Harry going to kill Sirius? Message-ID: <8F497E280916D4119B0100A0C9EA53E7021D59E5@leonardo.lee.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 53196 Back to the Shrieking Shack. How did Harry intend to kill Sirius? He didn't yet know of Avada Kadavra, or, as far as I know, any other way of magically committing murder. Is there something I'm missing? Mags [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sushi at societyhappens.com Tue Mar 4 23:27:03 2003 From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 17:27:03 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] How was Harry going to kill Sirius? In-Reply-To: <8F497E280916D4119B0100A0C9EA53E7021D59E5@leonardo.lee.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030304172235.02b68a50@mail.societyhappens.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53197 At 05:01 PM 3/4/03 -0600, you wrote: >Back to the Shrieking Shack. How did Harry intend to kill Sirius? He >didn't yet know of Avada Kadavra, or, as far as I know, any other way of >magically committing murder. Is there something I'm missing? >Mags I think he was relying upon the fact that, with enough force, anyone can go down. A wizard is a human being with magical abilities. A broken neck is still a broken neck. Given that Sirius was emaciated and had spent twelve years rotting in a cell, and Harry is an athlete in, presumably, fairly good shape, I think he'd have had a fighting chance. (Well, assuming Sirius didn't Disapparate or turn into a dog. But, hey, I can ignore plotholes - or gaps in Harry's knowledge, either one works. Right? Right?) Sushi [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From flamingstarchows at att.net Tue Mar 4 23:19:35 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 17:19:35 -0600 Subject: Late Start to Magical Education References: Message-ID: <00a101c2e2a4$85e22720$fd1e570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 53198 ----- Original Message ----- PK: I could have missed or failed to remember something (actually, this is almost a given), but I think the post I responded to, at least, contained speculation on what children are taught before age eleven and consideration of the cultural effects of growing up where magic is taken for granted. *If* witch-born children were routinely taught anything about how to do magic prior to Hogwarts, then logically they would be well ahead. This is why I don't think they are. :) ----Me---- This entire discussion reminds me of the Hispanic kids who signed up for Spanish in high school because they thought it would be an *easy* A. Instead, they had a very difficult time because it turned out they were expected to learn *proper* Spanish, including annoying little things like correct grammer. Old habits are hard to break - for instance, Malfoy being told by Madam Hooch that he had been using an incorrect grip for years (SS, Chapter 8). ~Cathy~ From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 23:27:22 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 23:27:22 -0000 Subject: "Re: hearing voices" <-- imagined? & text of the voices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53199 Hobbit-guy wrote: > There's been a lot of speculation lately about the identity of the > people that Harry hears when he hears his parents' death. [mentions > speculations of Voldemort, Pettigrew, Snape, Lily, Sirius, etc.] > > Harry doesn't recognize the voices he hears. In my opinion, this > rules out Snape, Lupin, and Dumbledore AT LEAST from being at the > scene.. [later he also rules out Sirius and Pettigrew.] > The quotes don't say he heard anybody he knows, and IMNSHO, he'd > probably recognize any of these people's voices at once. > > The "stand aside" voice is described as high and cold, which makes me 99.735% certain that it's Voldemort saying this. If anybody who's got PoA handy could check this out, I'd be grateful. Me: Good point on recognizing the voices. I'd like to also add in that he has heard Voldemort's voice before - via Quirrell's turban. Now, it can be argued that his voice may be different in the turban, and I just loaned out my copy of SS, but I remember his voice being described similarly to Harry's voices. And I do have PoA handy, so here's what I found, with a few comments inserted from me: 1) on the Quidditch field: > "Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry" > "Stand aside, you silly little girl... stand aside now..." > "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead -" > Numbing, swirling white mist was filling Harry's brain... What was > he doing? Why was he flying? He needed to help her but... She was > going to die... She was going to be murdered... He was falling > through the icy mist. > "Not Harry! Please... have mercy... have mercy..." > A shrill voice was laughing, the woman was screaming, and Harry > knew no more. - US Hardcover PoA, page 179 > "When they get near me, I can hear Voldemort murdering my mum," > Harry to Lupin, about the above incident. page 187 I'd like to point out here that Harry does not replay the conversation and then get told by someone what he was overhearing. He either just *knows* or *assumes* what he has heard is Lily and Voldemort. 2) Patronus lessons with Lupin, incident 1: > "Not Harry! Not Harry! Please, I'll do anything - " > "Stand aside. Stand aside, girl!" - page 239 3) Patronus lessons with Lupin, incident 2: > ... then came a new voice, a man's voice, shouting, panicking - > "Lily, take Harry and go! It's him! I'll hold him off -" > The sounds of someone stumbling from a room - a door bursting open - > a cackle of high-pitched laughter - > "I heard my dad," Harry mumbled. "That's the first time I've heard > him - he tried to take on Voldemort by himself, to give my mum time > to run for it..." > "You heard James?" Lupin said in a strange voice. - page 240, 241 I'd like to point out that Lupin's strange voice thing here has been subject of much speculation, leaving people wondering (myself included, in previous posts) if this is an indication that Harry's dad wasn't there/ the voice was someone else. But who else could it be? I speculate that in order for it to not be James, it has to be someone we know that has a somewhat significant role in Harry's life. ('Cause otherwise, what's the point of having a different person there?) However, anyone that could fill that role has had his voice heard - by both Harry and us. 4) and I'd like to add this quote into the debate: > "It [Harry's reaction to the dementors] has nothing to do with > weakness," said Professor Lupin sharply, as though he had read > Harry's mind. "The dementors affect you [Harry] worse than others > because there are horrors in your past that others don't have. > Get too near a dementor and every good feeling, every happy > memory will be sucked out of you. You'll be left with > nothing but the worst experiences of your life." - Lupin to Harry, page 187 First of all, I find it difficult to believe that, of all the adults present at the Quidditch match, none have an experience in their past that is worse than Harry's. After all, some of them must have had V- encounters... but there's no mention of anyone else having such an extreme reaction to the dementors. And the explanation can't be that adults have a stronger "reflex" since Lupin states that "weakness" doesn't have anything to do with it. (Unless this statement is meant to placate Harry, which doesn't seem likely.) Secondly, (and related to the above point), aren't some of our worst fears the "monster in the closet" stuff from our youth?... Which leads me to ask, Is the worst experience of Harry's life the actual "witnessing" of his parents' death? He was a baby - how much could he have actually comprehended what was going on? Sure, he's a wizard, and sure the moment may have been branded into his subconscious... and, my being a muggle and all (still hoping to get that Hogwarts acceptance letter, even at age 26...), I don't know if some wizards actually can remember coming out of the womb. I do know that my earliest memories do not go as far back as when I was one. Here's what I'm (reluctantly) proposing: Harry's "worst experience" is not the actual living through witnessing his parents' death, but how he *imagines* that death to have taken place. ie He doesn't have a real/vivid memory of the death, but he does lie awake at night imagining how it all took place, and those thoughts are what haunt him. Prior to encountering the dementors, he had only had "third- person"-esque daydreams about the incident (sort of like in dreams when you are watching yourself in the scene) But the dementors tapped into his fear and his imagination, bringing out a vivid, but imagined, replay of the scene. Hence the reason that he identifies the voices as his parents' and he puts Voldemort's voice (which he has already heard) into the scene. (btw, I do think that Harry believes that what he hears is the actual scene - not his imagination) This idea brings up an interesting concept with the books. Much time has been spent in relation to not letting your fears get the best of you. For example, "He who must not be named" is a way of giving into your fears, and thus giving the object of your fear power. The Patronus is incredibly difficult to do, and it is the ultimate-magic way of confronting your fears. Might Harry's voices be a red herring, and the real issue (in relation to the voices) will not be the *what* of the scene, but instead Harry needing to overcome his fear of Voldemort (initially planted in him by knowledge of V killing his parents and then growing as he imagined this taking place.) I'd venture to say that while this scene is emotionally heart wrenching for both Harry and the reader (when I first read it, I was overjoyed that Harry got to hear his mum and dad), it may actually be more a representative of how much fear can seep into your every thought and have grave effects on your life. I'm not sure if these ramblings are making any sense, but hopefull y'all will understand what I'm trying to say. I close with a fun project I took on. I pieced together all of what Harry heard to see how the full conversation may have taken place. (As I was typing the quotes out before, I saw minor discrepencies between some of them, leading me to believe that Harry is hearing different parts of the conversation with each dementor encounter): ... then came a new voice, a man's voice, shouting, panicking - M (male voice): "Lily, take Harry and go! It's him! I'll hold him off -" The sounds of someone stumbling from a room - a door bursting open - a cackle of high-pitched laughter - F (female voice): "Not Harry! Not Harry! Please, I'll do anything -" H (high pitched voice): "Stand aside. Stand aside, girl!" F: "Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry" H: "Stand aside, you silly little girl... stand aside now..." F: "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead -" F: "Not Harry! Please... have mercy... have mercy..." A shrill voice was laughing, the woman was screaming. - Nobody's Rib, who, despite her musings, really wants Harry to have heard what really happened that night From oppen at mycns.net Tue Mar 4 23:45:58 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 17:45:58 -0600 Subject: Correcting my earlier post... Message-ID: <01b101c2e2a8$355bffc0$6c4b0043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 53200 Okay, I went back to the Texts (I fear movie contamination) and found out that yes, on the Rock Harry was finding out about the exact, down-to-the-minute time the night before his birthday by seeing _Dudley's_ watch, not his own. *slams ears in car door to remind self to Always Check The Texts next time* But, at some time between then and the later books, Harry acquires a watch. Could that have been Hermione's Christmas present to him at some point? A watch? The more I think about it, the more reasonable the idea seems. Hermione is Muggle-born and more used to watches than, say, Ron, and is _also_ more aware than Ron is of which Muggle artifacts do and do not work well at Hogwarts. Her parents are dentists, which means that they aren't shy a few bob. Could she have asked her parents to use some of the money they'd earmarked for her to buy Harry a _mechanical_ watch, even possibly second-hand? We've seen very little of Hermione's parents, unlike Arthur and Molly Weasley, but I think from what little we know they'd probably be just as sorry for Harry, and just as indignant about his life with the Dursleys, as Molly Weasley is. I don't know how much an inexpensive mechanical watch would cost these days, not having been in the market for one, but I don't think that this is something that's totally out of the question. Looking in the second-hand market would also bring the price down considerably, and remember, we aren't talking about the fanciest Rolex on the market. Just something to help Harry get to classes on time. From megrose_13 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 23:45:00 2003 From: megrose_13 at yahoo.com (Meg) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 23:45:00 -0000 Subject: "Re: hearing voices" <-- imagined? & text of the voices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53201 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nobodysrib" wrote: > > I close with a fun project I took on. I pieced together all of what > Harry heard to see how the full conversation may have taken place. > (As I was typing the quotes out before, I saw minor discrepencies > between some of them, leading me to believe that Harry is hearing > different parts of the conversation with each dementor encounter): > > ... then came a new voice, a man's voice, shouting, panicking - > M (male voice): "Lily, take Harry and go! It's him! I'll hold him > off -" > The sounds of someone stumbling from a room - a door bursting open - > a cackle of high-pitched laughter - > F (female voice): "Not Harry! Not Harry! Please, I'll do anything -" > H (high pitched voice): "Stand aside. Stand aside, girl!" > F: "Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry" > H: "Stand aside, you silly little girl... stand aside now..." > F: "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead -" > F: "Not Harry! Please... have mercy... have mercy..." > A shrill voice was laughing, the woman was screaming. > > - Nobody's Rib, who, despite her musings, really wants Harry to have > heard what really happened that night -------- Well, when I read the scene all peiced together in my mind like that, I too have come to the conclusion that it must be Harry's imagination providing this dialogue, and not the real situation. I agree that Harry was only a 1 year old baby and is in my opinion impossible for him to remember something he could not comprehend at the time. Also, whether or not the man in the scene is James, both of the adults seem awfully concerned about the safety of Harry. True, he is Lily's son and all but Harry's name just seems to come up a little to often. I don't really know how to explain what I am thinking here... Basically I think that if people were in such a situation, they would be very concerned about their own survial as well as their children. It also makes it seem like Voldemort was going after Harry first, which, knowing Voldemort, doesn't seem like something he would be very concerned about. Anyway, what I am getting at here is that perhaps Harry's imagination makes him almost the most important person in the scene because he wonders how he survived the whole ordeal. Does any of this make sense? From probono at rapidnet.com Tue Mar 4 23:52:01 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 23:52:01 -0000 Subject: How was Harry going to kill Sirius? In-Reply-To: <8F497E280916D4119B0100A0C9EA53E7021D59E5@leonardo.lee.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53202 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barclay, Maggie" wrote: > Back to the Shrieking Shack. How did Harry intend to kill Sirius? He > didn't yet know of Avada Kadavra, or, as far as I know, any other way of > magically committing murder. Is there something I'm missing? > Mags > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] I've always just thought that by this point in time, Harry is relying mostly on instinct; just impluse, hormones, and raging emotions. He wasn't thinking logically about the how-to's or even the consequences of his actions. Sort of a 'crime of passion' sort of scenario. What I really want to know is, part Kneazle or no, why would Crookshanks risk his/her/it's life for Sirius? As Harry approaches Sirius, his wand pointing straight at his heart "Crookshanks leapt onto Black's chest and settled himself there, right over Black's heart." And then wouldn't budge even as Sirius tried to push him away. What conclusion did Crookshanks come to about Black that lead to his willingness to perform this sacrice for Sirius? It's been a bee in my bonnet for months that just won't go away! -Tanya From grover_the_weird at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 22:56:52 2003 From: grover_the_weird at yahoo.com (grover_the_weird) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 22:56:52 -0000 Subject: FF: JKR getting sued... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53203 You know. I have read just about every single idea that can happened in the 5th book. About 20 fanfics named "Harry Potter And The Order of Phoenix"; so I'm wondering when the 5th book comes out in June, somebody's going to say: "hey! that's my idea!" let's see, the only way she can avoid this is to add a huge bunch of characters and from where I see it, she already has a huge bunch. Now, being the clever lady she is, I doubt she'll do the Lost-Family- Melodrama or the Fall-In-Love stuff lots of fanfic authors tend to go for. I really don't think that JKR's fans are going to sue her if she does do something similar to their ideas because they simply love her too much but still...it's a thought I've been looking at. -Clarity From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Mar 4 23:45:49 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 23:45:49 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Weasley deaths References: <20030304141119.6574.h015.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> Message-ID: <3E653AAD.000001.66987@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 53204 Calliope: I wish he could learn it in a less drastic manner; but it would make for high drama, especially if they died at Voldemort's hands; then he and Harry would have something in common. Though how Voldie could go after Mr/Mrs Weasley, Bill, Charlie, Percy, Fred and George and not Ron-Ginny in book 5 would be complicated to set up since F-G would still be in school. Me - Umm are you sure about that? I thought Fred and George graduated at the end of GoF? I can't check right at this moment though. But isn't that why getting the money for the shop was so urgent for them. It wouldn't have been if they still had a year left of school. In which case killing the rest off could be achieved while Ron and Ginny were at school. But she wouldn't do that to them would she? I mean if JKR really wants to get the point through to Ron that what he has is to be envied and far more important than Harry's gold she could just kill off one Weasley. I think killing off the lot would push Ron right past moral lesson and well into total breakdown territory. Assuming Ron didn't just fall apart totally I think he'd be displaying the well-known, Sirius Black-like Gryffindor tendency of charging off looking for revenge, on his own, without telling anyone, leaving his brain in his spare robe and, since he's still a kid, getting himself fried in the process! If she kills off the Weasley clan that might be the one thing that would drive me into total denial and the realm of fanfiction instead of reading the rest of the books. I love the Weasleys, all of them. I can't bear to think she might do that! K From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 23:58:58 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 23:58:58 -0000 Subject: DE Identification & the Cold War In-Reply-To: <2UNOIGC71YXA6A606RNVTCA1X2VOKLG.3e64f732@tk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53205 Torsten wrote: If the MoM knew about the Mark during VW I, I wouldn't put it past Crouch to have people line up for examination wether they have it. But that's just Crouch, others might prevent such a disgrace to happen, especially when it comes to the question whether honorable citizens like Lucuis Malfoy should have to undergo it. And while Pettigrew, Snape and Karkaroff all have it on their arms, this might not be the rule and the Mark might be in a place where it's more difficult to spot ("Mind if I shave your head, Mr Malfoy?") I reply: Can't you just see Voldemort petting Lucius Malfoy on the head to summon the Death Eaters to him? *chuckle* I don't see how Crouch could personally make sure that everyone underwent a search for the Mark. IMO, it doesn't seem like they force prisoners to undergo any kind of physical examination. At least, neither Sirius, Hagrid, nor Barty Crouch Jr. mentions it, and they've all been in Azkaban. As for Fudge not knowing about the mark, I'm not really surprised. I was under the impression that it vanished after Voldemort's disappearance, although I don't think that's canon. Hmmm. We do know that Karkaroff says "It's been getting clearer and clearer for months." (GoF, US hardcover, Ch.23, 426) It doesn't say that it ever vanished entirely, though. In the Pensieve scene, Dumbledore's memory of Snape says "It's coming back... Karkaroff's too... stronger and clearer than ever..." (ibid, Ch.30, 598) This comes closer, implying that if it's `coming back,' that it probably `went away.' Still doesn't say unambiguously that it vanished, though. Hmph. Oh well. One way or the other, the trials took place for the most part after Lord Voldemort's fall, right? So, at that point, probably no one would have been able to see the mark anyways. And even if it was faint but still there, what's the likelihood that the prisoners would have been examined like that? The dementors don't have eyes, so we're talking about Ministry officials here. I'd guess that the likelihood is pretty low. And despite Sirius and Fudge, the other guy who discusses the mark `on-screen' is Dumbledore (I'm ignoring everyone else who's present in the Ch.36 scene in the hospital, since they don't get any reaction time or commentary that we hear of) and he doesn't seem puzzled it, but that makes sense, `cause we already know that Snape told him. -Tom From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Mar 5 00:00:43 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 19:00:43 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] FF: JKR getting sued... Message-ID: <18f.16db9036.2b96982b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53206 In a message dated 3/4/2003 5:57:08 PM Central Standard Time, grover_the_weird at yahoo.com writes: > I really don't think that JKR's fans are going to sue her if she does > do something similar to their ideas because they simply love her too > much but still...it's a thought I've been looking at. > > -Clarity > I doubt it would come to that as well. Plus the fact that characters belong to JKR might cause any type of lawsuit to be at a stalemate [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Mar 5 00:16:28 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 00:16:28 -0000 Subject: How was Harry going to kill Sirius? In-Reply-To: <8F497E280916D4119B0100A0C9EA53E7021D59E5@leonardo.lee.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53207 Maggie:"Back to the Shrieking Shack. How did Harry intend to kill Sirius? He didn't yet know of Avada Kadavra, or, as far as I know, any other way of magically committing murder. Is there something I'm missing?" We see more than once that a wizard feels threatened if he has a wand on him, even from someone who's really unlikely to know AK. There's one possibility that's occurred to me. If you recall from GoF, in the graveyard, Harry is running away from the DE's, who are trying to stun him. Harry dodges the spells, and *he hears gravestones cracking and being broken.* Also, James and Lily's house is destroyed when Voldemort's AK fails. Why? How? Apparently a spell has some physical force to it, especially when it's misdirected. It may be that Harry was going to give Sirius a magically generated punch hard enough to kill him (If you recieve a hard enough blow right in the chest, it can kill you; it happens all the time in auto wrecks without airbags). I don't think a thirteen year old would think he could kill a madman with his bare hands, emaciated or no. AK simply takes away the life spark without leaving any other trace, but that leaves the door open to more mundane ways of doing someone in. Jim Ferer From julia at thequiltbug.com Wed Mar 5 00:16:44 2003 From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 16:16:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Weasley deaths Message-ID: <20030304161645.19214.h015.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53208 > Me: > I wish he could learn it in a less drastic manner; but it would make for > high > drama, especially if they died at Voldemort's hands; then he and Harry would > have something in common. Though how Voldie could go after Mr/Mrs Weasley, > Bill, Charlie, Percy, Fred and George and not Ron-Ginny in book 5 would be > complicated to set up since F-G would still be in school. > Kathryn: > Umm are you sure about that? I thought Fred and George graduated at the end > of GoF? I can't check right at this moment though. But isn't that why > getting the money for the shop was so urgent for them. It wouldn't have been > if they still had a year left of school. > In which case killing the rest off could be achieved while Ron and Ginny > were at school. Me: Yep - according to the Harry Potter Lexicon, The Twins are in the Class of 96, and Harry/Ron/Hermione are Class of 98, so that would make the Twins seventh years when Ron's a fifth year. Mrs. Weasley yelled at Fred and George about their OWLs results right before the World Cup; OWLs are taken at end of fifth year,making them sixth years in GoF. Calliope (who doesn't want ANY of the Weasleys to die!) "The Last Time" Chapter 21 is up! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/ See also: http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ From nithya_rachel at hotmail.com Wed Mar 5 00:18:32 2003 From: nithya_rachel at hotmail.com (errolowl) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 00:18:32 -0000 Subject: More Polydoubts In-Reply-To: <20030304204749.25787.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53209 I theorized: Moody is in a pretty bad way when they find him ? thin, starved and freezing. None of this affected Barty Jr. did it? So the original suffering injury likely had no effect on the pretender. Harry and Ron feel no effect from the drugging of Crabbe and Goyle either. If instead of a sleeping draught they had simply hit them over the head, cartoon style, would Polyjuiced!Harry & Ron have bumps on their heads too? ....the victims of polyjuice we know to date have been disabled in a non-physical way. I tend to think you get a version of the person as of the moment you "stole" some of their essence. Which is why Barty would have had to set aside his supply of MoodyHair before Moody became thin & starved Morgan D: Yeah, but didn't Crabbe and Goyle got drugged before Ron and Harry got samples of their hair? Wouldn't they have felt groggy then? Me: I guess you get only the external physical attributes of that person ? not the physiological. Thus you wouldn't get either the starved feeling nor the groggy feeling/ unconsciousness...however you would get a bump on the head and the thin appearance ? does that make sense? Externally you are a replica of the original person, but you are still you inside (you keep your own mind and identity right?) So I suppose that if the original had a skin rash, youd have it too ? but if the person had an upset stomach I doubt the replica would get that as well. :) And David wrote: > I agree that the timescale is very tight for the whole Moody kidnap > sub-plot, and it stretches credibility. Why did Voldemort leave it > so late? However, perhaps the wording of Crouch's confession may > just indicate his very strong identification with Voldemort and his > gang. So, we can interpret this passage along the lines > of: "Wormtail and I kidnapped Moody. We the conspirators had > already prepared the potion." Morgan: Yeah, that could work. I doubt it was what JKR had in mind when she wrote those lines, but your interpretation would save her from my accusing math. Good point. Me: No I don't doubt it. I think JKR had just that in mind when she wrote it. Crouch Jr uses "we" throughout to align himself with Voldmort so this would not be an aberration. The potion was already prepared by the bad guys ? Wormtail and Crouch Jr overpowered Moody, and Jr added Moody's hair to the pre-prepared portion. Errol. From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Mar 5 00:01:50 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 18:01:50 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Correcting my earlier post... References: <01b101c2e2a8$355bffc0$6c4b0043@hppav> Message-ID: <3E653E6E.4A7C13A1@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53210 Eric Oppen wrote: > (Snipped) > > I don't know how much an inexpensive mechanical watch would cost these > days, > not having been in the market for one, but I don't think that this is > something that's totally out of the question. Looking in the > second-hand > market would also bring the price down considerably, and remember, we > aren't > talking about the fanciest Rolex on the market. Just something to > help > Harry get to classes on time. > > I got my last watch for free.. well, for signing up for a credit card. But a cheap watch could cost less then $5 and even Harry could get that much, even if it was just recycling soda cans or cat-sitting for Mrs. Figg or something. I could always find a way to make a few bucks on my own as a kid.. Jazmyn From carrie525 at mybluelight.com Tue Mar 4 22:21:32 2003 From: carrie525 at mybluelight.com (Carrie S) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:21:32 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's big money gift References: Message-ID: <00c801c2e2b1$33a90980$4db15142@net> No: HPFGUIDX 53211 Felinia wrote: I guess I'm kind of alone in this, but I really think JKR is making too much of the money thing and Ron. All I can think of is that she must be doing it to make a point later in the books - that maybe it is in fact going to turn out to be Ron's "Achilles Heel", as it were. and..... What puzzles me is why Harry doesn't just do things like make an anonymous deposit in the Weasley account....... Carrie (me): I think along these same lines too. I understand that Harry just wants to be rid of the money. It's a touchy subject with Ron now so maybe he doesn't want to ask him...and he doesn't want to hold onto to the money until there is a better time. Harry has recieved anonymous presents before. He should be able to think about doing this for Ron or the Weasley family. Or even trying to make a deposit to thier vault. But he doesn't do any of this. He just gives it to his best friend's brothers. Yeah, maybe Ron would have been mad if Harry had tried to give it to him...but Harry could have just asked. "Ron, how do I get rid of this money?" It allows Ron to say "I'll take it" or help Harry get rid of it. I doubt Ron would say "Let's give it to Fred and George!" It's a basic character difference in the two. Ron wants to be included. He wants to help his friends with problems, even if he is in danger. Ron wants to feel important. Harry is independant and doesn't seek out attention, advice or help. He's a protector. Ron interprets this as being left out. How does the Money affect Ron when he finds out about it though? Will Ron just not care? Will the twins be able to hide the money? I am sure it will be suspicious when they give him new robes and whatever else. Will he be jealous of the twins money before he finds out Harry gave it to them? Maybe he never will and this is just a way for JKR to get money to the twins so they can invent something for the next book. =) Carrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From heidit at netbox.com Wed Mar 5 02:15:20 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 02:15:20 -0000 Subject: FF: JKR getting sued... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53212 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grover_the_weird" wrote: > You know. I have read just about every single idea that can happened > in the 5th book. About 20 fanfics named "Harry Potter And The Order > of Phoenix"; so I'm wondering when the 5th book comes out in June, > somebody's going to say: "hey! that's my idea!" > > let's see, the only way she can avoid this is to add a huge bunch of > characters and from where I see it, she already has a huge bunch. > Now, being the clever lady she is, I doubt she'll do the Lost- Family- > Melodrama or the Fall-In-Love stuff lots of fanfic authors tend to go > for. > > I really don't think that JKR's fans are going to sue her if she does > do something similar to their ideas because they simply love her too > much but still...it's a thought I've been looking at. > IP attorney chiming in here: In the US and the UK (among many other countries) you cannot sue someone because the ideas in their story and the ideas in your story are similar. You cannot copyright an idea. Period. As the patent office in the UK says, copyright "protects the way the idea is expressed in a piece of work, but it does not protect the idea itself." In the US, further, one cannot copyright names, titles, short phrases or expressions. As the Library of Congress' copyright section says, "even if a name, title, or short phrase is novel or distinctive or if it lends itself to a play on words, it cannot be protected by copyright." Accordingly, if someone wanted to successfully sue JKR in US court for copyright infringement in a fanfic-related matter, JKR would have to have used long phrases or sentences, or more, from said fanfic in her novel. Word for word. Early last month, we had a thread on this very same issue on the OT Chatter list, starting with post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU- OTChatter/message/13815. You might find those posts interesting, and instead of reposting my analysis here, I just suggest you take a peek at those posts. FYI, I'm going to be part of a team presenting on these issues at Nimbus - 2003 (http://www.hp2003.org) and we're launching a FAQ-ish website which will cover these issues, later this month, as a prelim for some of what we're going to cover at the event. Heidi, not legally blonde From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 5 03:11:28 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 03:11:28 -0000 Subject: Weasley deaths In-Reply-To: <20030304161645.19214.h015.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53213 Calliope wrote: >Though how Voldie could go after Mr/Mrs Weasley, Bill, Charlie, >Percy, Fred and George and not Ron-Ginny in book 5 would be >complicated to set up since F-G would still be in school. Well it could be possible. During Christmas break. This Christmas Fred, George and Ginny could go home and Ron would stay at Hogwarts. Greicy From rpquate at earthlink.net Wed Mar 5 04:35:45 2003 From: rpquate at earthlink.net (redandgoldlion) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 04:35:45 -0000 Subject: "Re: hearing voices" <-- imagined? & text of the voices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53214 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nobodysrib" wrote: > Me: > > > ...aren't some of our worst > fears the "monster in the closet" stuff from our youth?... Which > leads me to ask, Is the worst experience of Harry's life the > actual "witnessing" of his parents' death? He was a baby - how much > could he have actually comprehended what was going on? Sure, he's a > wizard, and sure the moment may have been branded into his > subconscious... and, my being a muggle and all (still hoping to get > that Hogwarts acceptance letter, even at age 26...), I don't know if > some wizards actually can remember coming out of the womb. I do know > that my earliest memories do not go as far back as when I was one. > Here's what I'm (reluctantly) proposing: Harry's "worst experience" > is not the actual living through witnessing his parents' death, but > how he *imagines* that death to have taken place. ie He doesn't have > a real/vivid memory of the death, but he does lie awake at night > imagining how it all took place, and those thoughts are what haunt > him. Prior to encountering the dementors, he had only had "third- > person"-esque daydreams about the incident (sort of like in dreams > when you are watching yourself in the scene) But the dementors tapped > into his fear and his imagination, bringing out a vivid, but > imagined, replay of the scene. Hence the reason that he identifies > the voices as his parents' and he puts Voldemort's voice (which he > has already heard) into the scene. (btw, I do think that Harry > believes that what he hears is the actual scene - not his imagination) > Hello everyone, I'm suppose to be doing homework, so I'm just going to post one quick thing in response to nobodysrib's post. Although *I* don't remember anything from when I was one, I think Harry does. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Harry see the green light before he knows that Avada Kedavra gives it off (when Hagrid's telling him the story of his parents' death)? Also, and I find this as the most important support for my ramblings, he recalls the motorcycle. Now sure, he *was* dreaming his "memory" of the motorcycle, but at this point he thinks he's a normal person with nothing special about him. When I have dreams like that, *I* don't believe them. Also, what are the chances he'd have some spontaneous, recurring dream with a flying motorcycle in it *before* he finds out he's a wizard? Not only that, but he mentions it to the Dursleys, which makes me think it's lingering in his mind. Hope that makes sense. ;-) ~redandgoldlion~ (who has Harry Potter related dreams every night and is *really* hoping that they're memories and that she just doesn't know it yet) From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Wed Mar 5 04:38:19 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 23:38:19 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Weasley deaths Message-ID: <4d.2ca413e8.2b96d93b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53215 In a message dated 3/4/2003 10:13:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, grace701 at yahoo.com writes: > Calliope wrote: > >Though how Voldie could go after Mr/Mrs Weasley, Bill, Charlie, > >Percy, Fred and George and not Ron-Ginny in book 5 would be > >complicated to set up since F-G would still be in school. > > Greicy: > > > Well it could be possible. During Christmas break. This Christmas > Fred, George and Ginny could go home and Ron would stay at Hogwarts. Actually, I kind of picture Lucius Malfoy as the one who attacks the Weasley family, not Voldemort. It fits. No matter when it was I imagine it would be a surprise raid. Certain members of the family could be out (Diagon Alley? Staying at Hogwarts? Going to get Harry?) when the attack happened. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lilpurplealdy at netscape.net Wed Mar 5 05:07:46 2003 From: lilpurplealdy at netscape.net (Juliet) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 05:07:46 -0000 Subject: Evil!Lupin, and Draco (was Kneazel?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53216 As Pipping quoted from FBAWTFT: "The Kneazle has an uncanny ability to detect unsavoury or suspicious characters and can be relied on to guide its owner safely home if they are lost." FBAWTFT p. 24. And then, Pippin elaborated on that with: >>If we agree that Sirius is *not* unsavoury or suspicious, then there is canon that Crookshanks lacked the ability to detect it, since "It was a while before he trusted me." PoA ch 19. >> Hmm...I don't follow you here. If Sirius was *not* unsavory or suspicious, then WHY did Crookshanks not trust him in the beginning? Crookshanks suspected him, knew he wasn't a dog, and went after him, one could suppose, like he did PeterTheRat. But Sirius communicated what it was he was trying to do, so thus Crookshanks trusted him. As Kneazles are described as intlelligent(FBAWTFT), this isn't out of canon. Pippin: >>My theory is that Crookshanks can tell when people are consciously perpetrating an untruth, but *doesn't * know who is untrustworthy or unsavory.>> Then your theory is negated by the very canon you posted, as it specifically states that Kneazles have an uncanny ability to detect the unsavory or suspicious. Pippin: >>What abrogates his ability to detect Evil!Lupin is not the objective truth of Lupin's words, but that Evil!Lupin is utterly, purposefully and perfectly sure that everything he says is true.>> Or maybe Crookshanks just doesn't suspect him because, say, Lupin isn't evil? ;) But then again, Crookshanks doesn't seem to be aware that Snape is in the room. Hum. This doesn't seem right, as Snape was hiding under an Invisibility Cloak and eavesdropping- that's pretty suspicious and unsavory, if you ask me. But maybe since Crookshanks is only *part* Kneazle, he can only detect these things some of the time..? To elaborate: He firstly observes the people around him and, when he chooses, can concentrate his Kneazle!Ablities on that person at a given time..? Maybe, when HHR and Scabbers entered the Magical Menagerie Shop, he fired a Kneazle blast at them and then went haywire when he got feedback on Scabbers. Just a thought. ~Aldrea, who remembers fighting against that Evil!Lupin theory... From AnaNg209 at aol.com Wed Mar 5 03:32:35 2003 From: AnaNg209 at aol.com (AnaNg209 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 22:32:35 EST Subject: DE Identification & the Cold War Message-ID: <139.1c209bdc.2b96c9d3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53217 In a message dated 3/4/03 1:21:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, : "karenkyla3 < karenkyla3 at aol.com>" writes: > It seems that everyone who calls him The Dark Lord is either a > DE or a house-elf of a DE, while those aligned with Dumbledore call > him you-know-who (of course with a couple exceptions as Harry and > Dumbledore call him Voldemort). Hi!? This is my very first post but i've been lurking for awhile!? My name is Kim.? Nice to meet you all.? :) I have on occasion noticed that it seems that supporters of Voldemort refer to him as the Dark Lord.? This stuck out the most to me during the scene in GoF of Crouch Jr.'s confession.? When he said the Dark Lord, i was like, hey!? wait! no..... Then i thought this during the scene where Ginny sends Harry the singing valentine.? I can't find my copy of CoS, so I can't remember if it was in CoS or PoA, but if it's in CoS, maybe it's just Riddle's influence. Anyway, I apologize in advance if this has come up before.? Please don't send bubotuber pus to me!? Kim ETA: It's CoS, chapter 13, so maybe it is just Riddle's influence, but I always wondered if that incident had lasting effects on Ginny. (thanks for the cite, Pippy Elf.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grosich at nyc.rr.com Wed Mar 5 05:11:26 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina R Rosich) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 00:11:26 -0500 Subject: Snape/Neville/Trevor In-Reply-To: <1046728530.4703.65006.m1@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53218 jodel at aol.com wrote: And in the meantime, we should hardly be surprised that Snape, who sees just about all of the same evidence we do, and ascribes the worst possible motives to it, should be driven batty by Neville's whole "duffer" act and be determined to take it out of Neville's hide. As to Trevor. I can't think of any significance he plays, apart from underscoring Nevill'e "odd duck" status. Unless someone decides to toadnap him to hatch out another Basilisk. _JOdel I really like your idea that Neville desperately wants to be a squib. That makes a lot of sense. And, of course, Snape would be frustrated by Neville's constant inability as a kind of "learned helplessness." But I also think it's just plain frustrating to have cauldrons melting in your classroom every week, gung oozing out onto the floor. As for Trevor. It was mentioned a couple of times that the children may bring a toad as a pet. But it was the general consensus that toads were "old-fashioned" and "uncool." Trevor's toad was a present. As such, his toad is an extension of his unusual upbringing combined with his "odd duck" status, as you put it. His family is totally clueless on what to give him as a pet. They are equally clueless on the effect taking him to St. Mungos has on his psyche. In turn, Neville is totally clueless about how to behave magically. One has to wonder if he had any friends outside of his elderly relatives as a child. --- Gina From iluvgahan at yahoo.com Wed Mar 5 05:50:24 2003 From: iluvgahan at yahoo.com (iluvgahan) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 21:50:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Late Start to Magical Education (Was: Re: WQ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030305055024.56379.qmail@web13506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53219 I may be a little late in responding, I'm just now going through my e-mails and I have a minor point to raise as far as why aren't magical children ahead of muggle children? A very MINOR point, in GoF while they are at the Quidditch World Cup, they come across a baby who is playing with his father's wand(he makes a slug bigger, which his mother steps on moments later)so I would also think that Magical children have at least some knowledge of magic when beginning school(even at age 11),moreso than some Muggle children. Just a small thought from a new member :) I'm Christina by the way ===== __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From petra.delisser at postikaista.net Wed Mar 5 10:40:54 2003 From: petra.delisser at postikaista.net (brinforest) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 10:40:54 -0000 Subject: Ron is Dumbledore? More ammo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53220 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "piskmiffo " wrote: > What if Dumbledore is the future Ron? > > Let's say that Voldemort is about to kill Harry and noone knows where > they are, except for Ron, who is with them. > Ron, desperate to save Harry, tries going back in time to do just > this, but accidently goes too far back. > About 130 years too far. > > When he realizes where (well, when) he is, who would he first try to > find? Marty in BTTF tries to find the doc. Well, the doc in this > case, is Dumbledore. > But he can't find Dumbledore. Dumbledore is a tall, redhaired (well, > auburn in CoS) ~17-year old. Ron is a tall, redhaired 17-year old. > Ron already knows everything that has happened, and he knows that the > only way to save Harry is to wait 130 years, since he can't, for some > reason, go back to the future. > > That's when it hits him. Why did Dumbledore always seem to know > everything beforehand? Because HE was with Harry when it happened, > and the things he didn't see for himself, Harry told him. > Ron is Dumbledore. > Wow, the chills I got from this. I've heard the Ron-is-Dumbledore theory before, but I never got hit by it as hard as now. I've got some points to add from PS/SS, which I immediately started going through (if I were to do the same with the rest of the books, I'd be writing this for the rest of the day): Both Dumbledore and Ron are described as having long noses. Both Dumbledore and Ron are described as liking sweets. Dumbledore is the only one Voldemort is afraid of - why?? Maybe V somehow found this out who knows how long ago, and has been on a mission to change history ever since? Here are some Dumbledore quotes that, IMO, sound very different from before once you read them with this theory in mind: 1. "I would trust Hagrid with my life," said Dumbledore. (SS p. 10) 2. "He'll have that scar forever." 3. "Good luck, Harry," he murmured. (I could cry at this...) 4. This is what really blows my mind: the Mirror of Erised conversation between Dumbledore and Harry in SS p. 170: *Dumbledore* tells *Harry* what Ron saw in the mirror and not the other way round! And everything he says after that, before they part, sounds downright eerie now. 5. The conversation between Dumbledore and Harry towards the end of SS, when Dumbledore gives the "death is but the next great adventure" speech. He goes on to talk about how humans make wrong choices, and - "hummed a little and smiled at the ceiling." Is he fighting tears here? Furthermore, after he describes how powerful love leaves a mark of protection, the same thing happens. 6. Something to watch out for: Ron getting a vomit-flavored Every Flavor Bean! I'd love, love, love to spend the rest of my day on this, but aaarrgh! Got to get some work done! Just a couple more things, piskmiffo - I really like how your theory can nicely be combined with other Ron theories, even the Clash of Heirs one from yesterday, but not Dead!Ron and Evil!Ron ones. I find this way more appealing because of the HUGE importance it gives to Ron and his personality, and the background it gives to Dumbledore's character. And the future of Dumbledore - what if Harry were to find out about this just before Dumbledore dies, for instance? AFTER Ron is gone? And what if Hermione were to follow Ron... (uh-oh, SHIP slipping into view) :) Brin From sevothtarte at gmx.net Wed Mar 5 10:31:49 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 11:31:49 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] How was Harry going to kill Sirius? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030304172235.02b68a50@mail.societyhappens.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53221 Sushi wrote: > I think he was relying upon the fact that, with enough force, >anyone can go down. A wizard is a human being with magical abilities. A >broken neck is still a broken neck. Given that Sirius was emaciated and >had spent twelve years rotting in a cell, and Harry is an athlete in, >presumably, fairly good shape, I think he'd have had a fighting >chance. There are enough magical possibilities. Several times we've seen stun victims being checked for how well they are, so Stupefy is dangerous, probably especially to children, eldery, people with frail constitution. In any case, several stunning spells should do the trick (remember Arthus's fear for the kids after the Ministry wizards showered them with stunning spells in GoF). Then there's Reducio, just blast a hole in his head or chest... Set him on fire... Summon a rope around his neck to strangle him... a Banishment Charm strong enough to send Flitwick flying might be able to smack Sirius hard against the wall behind him, do it several times... Transfigure him somehow... Those kids are dangerous. ^_~ -Torsten From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 5 11:59:34 2003 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (Catherine Coleman) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 11:59:34 +0000 Subject: Harry's Big Money Gift.... & more on money In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53222 In message , "Steve " writes In response to Siriuskase' question about the difficulties the spectators would have had actually seeing any of the Third task, Steve wrote: >So it is reasonable to assume that the stands >are from 30ft to 70 or 80ft above the ground, which means that people >COULD look down into the hedges and see people moving around. The >contestants could not be seen by everyone all the time, but they could >reasonably be some by many of the people most of the time. And I feel >that the Cup was placed in an open area near the end where /most/ >people could see the cup being taken. While I agree that it is possible that the centre could have been visible, the rest just doesn't make sense or fit with canon. How on earth could Moody/BCJ have moved around *inside* the maze (instead of the perimeters which is what the others were doing), without being spotted? Yes, we know he's got an invisibility cloak, but surely if he was constantly clearing the way for Harry, people would have noticed that obstacles were being dealt with before Harry reached them? If the maze was completely surrounded by stands, which would imply that some of the spectators could see parts of the maze all of the time, leaving very little of it completely impenetrable, BCJ's actions would seem incredibly risky. Furthermore, if he was constantly apparating from the outside of the maze into it, then surely people would have noticed this as well? Because of this I have always assumed that the Third Task was a poor excuse for a spectator-friendly event - just like the Second Task, btw. Catherine From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Mar 5 11:51:56 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 11:51:56 -0000 Subject: "Re: hearing voices" <-- imagined? & text of the voices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53223 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "redandgoldlion" wrote: >Although *I* don't > remember anything from when I was one, I think Harry does. Correct me > if I'm wrong, but doesn't Harry see the green light before he knows > that Avada Kedavra gives it off (when Hagrid's telling him the story > of his parents' death)? Even before -- Harry remembered the green light, lying in his closet, each night trying to reach as far back as he could. He *assumed* it had something to do with the "car accident" that killed his parents. He heard laughter (Voldemort's) when Hagrid told him the truth. He remembers MORE. This, I believe, is one reason Harry chose to trust Hagrid's version - he remembers. Another one being that Hagrid spoke highly of them and Harry. Of course, Petunia admitting the wizardry part and Hagrid giving Dudley a pig tail adds to it. > Also, and I find this as the most important > support for my ramblings, he recalls the motorcycle. Now sure, he > *was* dreaming his "memory" of the motorcycle, but at this point he > thinks he's a normal person with nothing special about him. When I > have dreams like that, *I* don't believe them. Also, what are the > chances he'd have some spontaneous, recurring dream with a flying > motorcycle in it *before* he finds out he's a wizard? Not only that, > but he mentions it to the Dursleys, which makes me think it's > lingering in his mind. He did. And I, too, believe that the 'dream' was a memory. A memory that also helped him to trust Hagrid... Yes, Harry *does* remember his past - or has *visions* of it. After all, he has had visions about future (Buckbeak in Crystal Ball, Triwizard Cup in dream before he knew he was entering) and present (of Voldemort ending with his scar hurting, at least I presume it was *present*. So why not past? Either Harry remembers because he's held on to it - or he has a *vision* about his past... -- Finwitch From hp_lexicon at yahoo.com Wed Mar 5 15:49:55 2003 From: hp_lexicon at yahoo.com (hp_lexicon) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 15:49:55 -0000 Subject: new additions to the canon? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53224 Today I posted this on the What's New page of the Lexicon. I'm posting it here to invite comment and discussion. Quotage: In my last entry, I mentioned that Disney Adventures magazine stated that the 101 Wizard cards in the video games were designed by Rowling. I said that I was trying to find out if that were true, but in the meantime I was going to start including that information in the Lexicon. Since then I have been informed by a source in the know that everything in the games is indeed either designed by or approved by Rowling. So what, you say? Well, for canon purists like me, that's a pretty big deal. That means that there are a lot of new things which must be included into the Lexicon, sure, but it also strongly suggests that other official products, the trading card game for example, are canon as well, if Rowling has the same relationship with them as she has with the game designers. I don't have any word yet from Wizards--and they have ignored my emails asking for more information--so we can't be sure. But I am starting to rethink my position on what is and isn't canon and what will and won't be included in this website. And that means that I may have just set myself up for a LOT more work! I suppose I needed something to do between now and June 21... From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 5 16:10:18 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 16:10:18 -0000 Subject: Ron is Dumbledore? More ammo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53225 brin wrote: >And the future of Dumbledore - what if Harry were to find out about >this just before Dumbledore dies, for instance? AFTER Ron is gone? >And what if Hermione were to follow Ron... (uh-oh, SHIP slipping >into view) :) Hey hey hey....what's this shipping all about? lol Why would Hermione follow Ron? Will Ron die if Dumbledore die? I mean it maybe different timelines because Dumbledore went back in time, but it's still Ron! Dumbledore. It would be cool to *see* that in non-canon reference (aka theatres), to see Dumbledore dying while fighting Voldemort and a split screen comes up where we Ron just falling over for absolutely no reason what so ever! Uh, I wasn't into the idea, but just for that part I am! :D Greicy, who's hoping she doesn't get a howler for writing that iddy biddy non-canon idea part. From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 5 16:53:32 2003 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Megalynn S.) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 11:53:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Christmas (was; Weasley deaths) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53226 Well it could be possible. During Christmas break. This Christmas Fred, George and Ginny could go home and Ron would stay at Hogwarts. Greicy ~~~~~~~~~~~ I know I am changing topics here, but why don't the Weasley's ever invite Harry to come to their house for Christmas? It just seems to make more sense to have one extra guest home for Christmas, than half the family staying in a deserted Castle. I mean it CHRISTMAS, it's the one day of the year you should be with your family. I just have always found it hard to swallow that the Weasley kids, and Hermione would not want to go home and see thier family whom they have not seen since September. I understand 4th year and 1st year, but 2nd and 3rd year was just weird I think. Megalynn _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From karenkyla3 at aol.com Wed Mar 5 13:49:56 2003 From: karenkyla3 at aol.com (karenkyla3) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 13:49:56 -0000 Subject: Weasley deaths In-Reply-To: <3E653AAD.000001.66987@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53227 K says: "But she wouldn't do that to them would she? I mean if JKR really wants to get the point through to Ron that what he has is to be envied and far more important than Harry's gold she could just kill off one Weasley. I think killing off the lot would push Ron right past moral lesson and well into total breakdown territory. Assuming Ron didn't just fall apart totally I think he'd be displaying the well-known, Sirius Black-like Gryffindor tendency of charging off looking for revenge, on his own, without telling anyone, leaving his brain in his spare robe and, since he's still a kid, getting himself fried in the process!" Me: In response to the question of plausibility - whether killing all or most of the Weasleys to secure Ron's destiny is too farfetched, I would say that while it is drastic, it's not unprecedented. Think of one of the more famous fictional sidekicks - Robin of Batman&Robin. He's just a wholesome family boy until his entire family is killed right in front of him. While I can't think of any others offhand, I'm sure other famous sidekicks have gotten their start in the same way. Stacey From karenkyla3 at aol.com Wed Mar 5 14:01:50 2003 From: karenkyla3 at aol.com (karenkyla3) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 14:01:50 -0000 Subject: Ron is Dumbledore? More ammo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53228 piskmiffo at h...> wrote: > > > What if Dumbledore is the future Ron? > > Brin wrote: " Both Dumbledore and Ron are described as having long noses. Both Dumbledore and Ron are described as liking sweets...... Here are some Dumbledore quotes that, IMO, sound very different from before once you read them with this theory in mind: 1. "I would trust Hagrid with my life," said Dumbledore. (SS p. 10) 2. "He'll have that scar forever." 3. "Good luck, Harry," he murmured. (I could cry at this...) 4. This is what really blows my mind: the Mirror of Erised conversation between Dumbledore and Harry in SS p. 170: *Dumbledore* tells *Harry* what Ron saw in the mirror and not the other way round! And everything he says after that, before they part, sounds downright eerie now. 5. The conversation between Dumbledore and Harry towards the end of SS, when Dumbledore gives the "death is but the next great adventure" speech. He goes on to talk about how humans make wrong choices, and - "hummed a little and smiled at the ceiling." Is he fighting tears here? Furthermore, after he describes how powerful love leaves a mark of protection, the same thing happens. 6. Something to watch out for: Ron getting a vomit-flavored Every Flavor Bean!" Me: Wow, I'm blown away. I've been following this theory post by post and not really swallowing it until now, but I really agree that it's a viable and exciting possibility. Something else to watch out for: Dumbledore says at some point that scars are useful - that he has one on his knee(?) that is a map of the London underground. Any scars there Ron? =) Stacey From lupinesque at yahoo.com Wed Mar 5 17:56:35 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 17:56:35 -0000 Subject: Moody at the Third Task (was Harry's Big Money Gift) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53229 Catherine wrote: > While I agree that it is possible that the centre could have been > visible, the rest just doesn't make sense or fit with canon. How on > earth could Moody/BCJ have moved around *inside* the maze (instead of > the perimeters which is what the others were doing), without being > spotted? I don't follow this. Why would he need to move around the inside? He could see through the hedges and remove some of the obstacles, whether they were in the outer passages or not. > Yes, we know he's got an invisibility cloak, but surely if he > was constantly clearing the way for Harry, people would have noticed > that obstacles were being dealt with before Harry reached them? If the > maze was completely surrounded by stands, which would imply that some of > the spectators could see parts of the maze all of the time, leaving very > little of it completely impenetrable, BCJ's actions would seem > incredibly risky. This is true. I have always assumed that he stayed around the perimeter, since the spectators could see him as well so the Cloak or Apparating wasn't an option (besides, you can't Apparate on the Hogwarts grounds!). I think, however, that he might well have had subtle ways of clearing Harry's path. He wouldn't cause a dangerous creature to blow up inexplicably--he would just mutter a spell that made it seemingly decide to go in a new direction, while the spectators breathed a sigh of relief to see it head away from Harry. As it is, Harry encounters a Boggart, a Skrewt, the earth-inverting mist, the sphinx, and the Acromantula anyway. However, other questions arise . . . didn't the spectators see Krum hitting Cedric with the Cruciatus? Didn't they see Fleur writhing in pain and ask her, once she was rescued (if she was), what happened? But maybe BCJ didn't care whether he got caught at that point. He only needed to get Harry to the center first and then he could take whatever punishment was dealt out. Amy From probono at rapidnet.com Wed Mar 5 18:05:44 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 18:05:44 -0000 Subject: Ron is Dumbledore? More ammo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53230 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "brinforest" wrote: > Wow, the chills I got from this. I've heard the Ron-is-Dumbledore > theory before, but I never got hit by it as hard as now. I've got > some points to add from PS/SS, which I immediately started going > through (if I were to do the same with the rest of the books, I'd be > writing this for the rest of the day): > > Both Dumbledore and Ron are described as having long noses. > > Both Dumbledore and Ron are described as liking sweets. > > Dumbledore is the only one Voldemort is afraid of - why?? Maybe V > somehow found this out who knows how long ago, and has been on a > mission to change history ever since? > > Here are some Dumbledore quotes that, IMO, sound very different from > before once you read them with this theory in mind: > > 1. "I would trust Hagrid with my life," said Dumbledore. (SS p. 10) > > 2. "He'll have that scar forever." > > 3. "Good luck, Harry," he murmured. (I could cry at this...) > > 4. This is what really blows my mind: the Mirror of Erised > conversation between Dumbledore and Harry in SS p. 170: *Dumbledore* > tells *Harry* what Ron saw in the mirror and not the other way > round! And everything he says after that, before they part, sounds > downright eerie now. > > 5. The conversation between Dumbledore and Harry towards the end of > SS, when Dumbledore gives the "death is but the next great > adventure" speech. He goes on to talk about how humans make wrong > choices, and - "hummed a little and smiled at the ceiling." Is he > fighting tears here? Furthermore, after he describes how powerful > love leaves a mark of protection, the same thing happens. > > 6. Something to watch out for: Ron getting a vomit-flavored Every > Flavor Bean! > > Me: Wow, sent shivers down my spine as well! There's two things I've found to contradict the theory, though. One is that Dumbledore is described as having blue eyes (light, bright, and sparkling)SS/PS Chp 1. Secondly, in GoF, Dumbledore mentions his own brother, Aberforth. Chpt 24. Neither is concrete evidence however. I don't ever remember any mention of the color of Ron's eyes. But, I would say light, bright blue eyes on a flaming red hair boy would be a rather significant trait worth mentioning. Also, obviously if Ron is really Dumbledore, than the name Dumbledore isn't real and we can guess Aberforth probably isn't either. Which makes me wonder, which of Ron's brothers would have been prosecuted for practicing innapropriate charms on a goat?? Fred or George? Albus quips, "I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery." Literally, it wouldn't apply to any of the Weasley boys, but I can certainly see Ron using a joke like that at their expense. As long as we're watching for clues to Ron!Dumbledore, keep an eye out for Broken-Nose!Ron. DD's nose was also described as looking like it had been broken twice. -Tanya (who has always wondered how DD's nose had been broken.) From julia at thequiltbug.com Wed Mar 5 18:15:29 2003 From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 10:15:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Christmas Message-ID: <20030305101529.7195.h007.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53231 "Megalynn S." wrote: > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > I know I am changing topics here, but why don't the Weasley's ever invite > Harry to come to their house for Christmas? It just seems to make more sense > to have one extra guest home for Christmas, than half the family staying in > a deserted Castle. I mean it CHRISTMAS, it's the one day of the year you > should be with your family. I just have always found it hard to swallow that > the Weasley kids, and Hermione would not want to go home and see thier > family whom they have not seen since September. I understand 4th year and > 1st year, but 2nd and 3rd year was just weird I think. > me: Maybe he'd have to have a signed note of permission from the Dursleys to leave school grounds; he had to have one to go to Hogsmeade. Calliope "The Last Time" Chapter 21 is up! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/ See also: http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ From artsylynda at aol.com Wed Mar 5 18:21:17 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 13:21:17 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] hearing voices Message-ID: <148.c2c0e5f.2b979a1d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53232 Meg: > perhaps Harry's imagination makes him almost the most important > person in the scene because he wonders how he survived the whole > ordeal. I too find it odd that a one year old could remember words he hasn't learned yet -- but Harry's a truly powerful wizard and there are things about him we simply don't know -- WHY was Voldemort so intent on killing a *baby*? Why not kill his parents and just keep Harry, if he's going to be such a powerful wizard, and raise him to be a Dark Lord (or at least a powerful minion) too? But V. seems intent on killing that baby to the extent of ignoring a perfectly capable witch who should've been able to put up a better defense (why was V. not worried that Lily would AK him???). What is it about Harry that makes everything happen to him? Why is Voldie so concentrated on him to the point of making a CHILD (and then a teenager) his *mortal enemy*? It seems more likely that Dumbledore would be his mortal enemy, if Dumbledore is the "greatest wizard of the age" (or however it's put in canon). There are a lot of illogical things going on here, which I'm hoping will be thoroughly explained in the rest of the books! Oh, and as for James not doing AK on Voldie -- there is no defense for AK, so we're told (I remember reading that somewhere, can't quote it). Most "normal" people would never THINK of doing AK on somebody, especially before the other person tried to do something to them (AK "in cold blood" as it were). If we're talking about guns instead of wizardry, the average homeowner facing an intruder would more likely try to HIT the intruder (with bullets, baseball bat, frying pan, etc.) to stop or disable him, rather than consciously thinking, "I'm going to kill this person before he has a chance to hurt me." We just aren't wired that way, in a "normal" life. Granted, James and Lily have been in hiding because they had warnings about Voldie, but still, it's a big leap to go from defensive tactics to first-strike murder -- and Voldie is the first-strike champ, giving James no chance to react. James wasn't as prepared as he should have been, maybe because he was distracted, worried about Harry -- and there they go, putting Harry first again. What *is* it about Harry??? I can't wait to find out! Sure hope JKR hurries up with the rest of the books!!! Sorry, more questions than answers here. . .but that's just a sign of how interesting all these things are! Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From seventhsqueal at yahoo.com Wed Mar 5 18:08:33 2003 From: seventhsqueal at yahoo.com (seventhsqueal) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 18:08:33 -0000 Subject: More weird name coincidences Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53233 I'm charting out the Deatheater circle (it's not done) and when I was reading through the list of names, Avery's stands out. It's too pretty. So I started looking for his first name because it has anagram potential. When you read the list of Snape's old school buddies...many of them look like obvious anagrams. The most obvious is Evan Rosier (another pretty name). This can be anagrammed to read (among thousands other significant results) sever+ and Severus Snape's name anagrams to evan+. The name Avery has similar potential. That's weird. I don't have time or the interest to look into this. Plus some of the first names have been withheld for the Lestranges, Wilkes and Avery. I'm just throwing this out there in case anyone enjoys fussing with this kind of thing. Peace, SeventhSqueal From ggershman77 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 5 18:30:38 2003 From: ggershman77 at yahoo.com (ggershman77) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 18:30:38 -0000 Subject: How was Harry going to kill Sirius? In-Reply-To: <8F497E280916D4119B0100A0C9EA53E7021D59E5@leonardo.lee.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53234 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barclay, Maggie" wrote: > Back to the Shrieking Shack. How did Harry intend to kill Sirius? He > didn't yet know of Avada Kadavra, or, as far as I know, any other way of > magically committing murder. Is there something I'm missing? > Mags > I got the feeling Harry was planning on stabbing Sirius through the heart with his wand. Something about the tone of the writing made me think that. Oh well. More to the point, we see here that Harry learns to control his anger and think rationally, rather than being ruled by his desire. Greg Harry Potter Prognostications - http://hpprogs.blogspot.com From snowwy54 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 5 18:39:12 2003 From: snowwy54 at yahoo.com (snowwy54) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 18:39:12 -0000 Subject: Ron is Dumbledore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53235 Wow I have thought for awhile of this possibility but I took it much farther because I also thought that McGonagal could have been Hermione. The hairstyle she wears could have been to hide Hermione's bushy hair. The trouble I had with this is that JK says D is around 150 and McGonagal is around 70. So unless they went back at different times but arrived at the same spot my theory doesn't work. As for Ron as Dumbledore: D tells Harry he knew James both at Hogwarts and after. So I'm confused to many what ifs I think Snowwy From grosich at nyc.rr.com Wed Mar 5 18:37:58 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina Rosich) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 10:37:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ghosts In-Reply-To: <1046851503.3325.13443.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030305183758.76608.qmail@web13113.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53236 Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 22:44:26 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Tom said: "The Aurors were given new powers ? powers to kill rather than capture, for instance. And I wasn't the only one who was handed straight to the dementors without trial. Crouch fought violence with violence, and authorized the use of the Unforgivable Curses against suspects." (GoF, US hardcover, Ch.27, 527) So, we know that the Aurors, at least, were given that authority when things were dire. I'm guessing, too, that James probably could have gotten away with using it if he'd been able to. *** Self-defence might not be seen as a good reason to use the curse in the WW. We don't know. But perhaps there was a more concrete reason for James to not use it against Voldemort. Isn't Voldemort immortal? Or at least "harder to kill" because he is no longer fully human? In that case, AK would be of no use. Or limited use (since even Voldemort didn't know the effect AK would have and backfire on him when he used it against Harry). Gina :-) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From karenkyla3 at aol.com Wed Mar 5 18:42:09 2003 From: karenkyla3 at aol.com (karenkyla3) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 18:42:09 -0000 Subject: Ludo Bagman Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53237 I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I am just into my third read of the series and something about Ludo Bagman stuck out at me in GoF. Earlier in the book after the Quidditch match, in the midst of the confusion when the muggles are being tormented, but before the dark mark is released, the trio are in the woods hiding per Mr. Weasley's instructions. It's on pages 126-127 in the hardcover American version: "...Ludo Bagman emerged from behind a tree right ahead of them. Even by the feeble light of the two wands, Harry could see that a great change had come over Bagman. He no longer looked buoyant and rosy- faced; there was no more spring in his step. He looked very white and strained. "Who's that?" he said, blinking down at them, trying to make out their faces. "What are you doing in here, all alone?" They looked at one another, surprised. "Well - there's a sort of riot going on," said Ron. Bagman stared at him. "What?" "At the campsite... some people have got hold of a family of muggles..." Bagman swore loudly. "Damn them!" he said, looking quite distracted, and without another word, he Disapparated witha small pop! "Not exactly on top of things, Mr. Bagman, is he?" said Hermione, frowning." To my recollection, this bizarre behavior was never accounted for was it? Why did Bagman emerge appearing haggard and disoriented if he didn't know that anything was wrong? For that matter, why was he in the woods at all if he didn't know what was wrong? (at this point the trio are in the woods, not near the tents) Who is he referring to when he says "Damn them!"? If he were just frustrated that random unknown people were tormenting muggles, he would have said "Damn it" in frustration, not "Damn them" almost as if he knew who it was. Then JKR makes a point again to say he still looks quite distracted and Hermione goes on to point this out too. It gets even more interesting because after a decent amount of time has passed (the dark mark has been displayed, Diggory is already questioning Winky), Bagman appears again, out of breath, and in the same exact spot he had Disapparated from while talking to the trio some time before. He is completely unaware of the mark. Had he been tending to the muggle situation, he would have seen the mark. So where was he and why is he still clueless? "Just then there was another pop, and Ludo Bagman Apparated right next to Mr. Weasley. Looking breathless and disoriented, he spun on the spot, goggling upward at the emerald-green skull. "The Dark Mark!" he panted, almost trampling Winky as he turned inquiringly to his colleagues. "Who did it? Did you get them? Barty! What's going on?..." (pages 132-133 of hardcover GoF) He goes on to ask Crouch why he never showed up to his box - an odd question considering THE DARK MARK IS ABOVE HIS HEAD. I can't believe none of this struck me as odd on my first two read-throughs, but for some reason this really stands out as bizarre behavior to me and I don't recall it ever being explained (though i could be wrong, I haven't finished GoF this time yet and it's been awhile since my last readthrough). Anyone have any thoughts to what Bagman was up to? Has this been discussed before? Stacey From hp_lexicon at yahoo.com Wed Mar 5 18:54:48 2003 From: hp_lexicon at yahoo.com (hp_lexicon) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 18:54:48 -0000 Subject: More weird name coincidences In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53238 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "seventhsqueal" wrote: > buddies...many of them look like obvious anagrams. The most obvious > is Evan Rosier (another pretty name). Rosier was the "patron devil of seduction," according to medieval demonologists. I've always wondered how those medieval demonologists found out all that stuff. I suspect that the names of other Death Eaters have similar connections as opposed to being anagrams. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon From probono at rapidnet.com Wed Mar 5 19:23:08 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 19:23:08 -0000 Subject: Ludo Bagman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53240 Stacey wrote: > I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I am just into my > third read of the series and something about Ludo Bagman stuck out at > me in GoF. Earlier in the book after the Quidditch match, in the > midst of the confusion when the muggles are being tormented, but > before the dark mark is released, the trio are in the woods hiding > per Mr. Weasley's instructions. It's on pages 126-127 in the > hardcover American version: > > "...Ludo Bagman emerged from behind a tree right ahead of them. Even > by the feeble light of the two wands, Harry could see that a great > change had come over Bagman. He no longer looked buoyant and rosy- > faced; there was no more spring in his step. He looked very white > and strained. "Who's that?" he said, blinking down at them, trying > to make out their faces. "What are you doing in here, all alone?" > They looked at one another, surprised. "Well - there's a sort of > riot going on," said Ron. Bagman stared at him. "What?" "At the > campsite... some people have got hold of a family of muggles..." > Bagman swore loudly. "Damn them!" he said, looking quite distracted, > and without another word, he Disapparated witha small pop! "Not > exactly on top of things, Mr. Bagman, is he?" said Hermione, > frowning." > > To my recollection, this bizarre behavior was never accounted for was > it? Why did Bagman emerge appearing haggard and disoriented if he > didn't know that anything was wrong? For that matter, why was he in > the woods at all if he didn't know what was wrong? (at this point > the trio are in the woods, not near the tents) Who is he referring > to when he says "Damn them!"? If he were just frustrated that random > unknown people were tormenting muggles, he would have said "Damn it" > in frustration, not "Damn them" almost as if he knew who it was. > Then JKR makes a point again to say he still looks quite distracted > and Hermione goes on to point this out too. It gets even more > interesting because after a decent amount of time has passed (the > dark mark has been displayed, Diggory is already questioning Winky), > Bagman appears again, out of breath, and in the same exact spot he > had Disapparated from while talking to the trio some time before. He > is completely unaware of the mark. Had he been tending to the muggle > situation, he would have seen the mark. So where was he and why is > he still clueless? > > "Just then there was another pop, and Ludo Bagman Apparated right > next to Mr. Weasley. Looking breathless and disoriented, he spun on > the spot, goggling upward at the emerald-green skull. "The Dark > Mark!" he panted, almost trampling Winky as he turned inquiringly to > his colleagues. "Who did it? Did you get them? Barty! What's > going on?..." (pages 132-133 of hardcover GoF) > > He goes on to ask Crouch why he never showed up to his box - an odd > question considering THE DARK MARK IS ABOVE HIS HEAD. I can't > believe none of this struck me as odd on my first two read- throughs, > but for some reason this really stands out as bizarre behavior to me > and I don't recall it ever being explained (though i could be wrong, > I haven't finished GoF this time yet and it's been awhile since my > last readthrough). Anyone have any thoughts to what Bagman was up > to? Has this been discussed before? Me: It is accounted for at the end of GoF Chp 37. George says "Turns out he's in big trouble with the goblins. Borrowed loads of gold off them. A gang of them cornered him in the woods after the World Cup and took all the gold he had, and it still wasn't enough to cover his debts." But all of this Ludo gambling stuff could just be a smokescreen. Remember Winky says Mr. Bagman is a "Bad wizard! A very bad wizard! Her master (Mr. Crouch) wasn't liking him at all." And Skeeter comments that she knows things about Bagman that would "make your hair curl." Hope that helps! -Tanya From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Wed Mar 5 20:03:34 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 15:03:34 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How was Harry going to kill Sirius? Message-ID: <1f0.392cac3.2b97b216@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53241 In a message dated 3/5/2003 1:33:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, ggershman77 at yahoo.com writes: > wrote: > > Back to the Shrieking Shack. How did Harry intend to kill Sirius? > He > > didn't yet know of Avada Kadavra, or, as far as I know, any other > way of > > magically committing murder. Is there something I'm missing? > > Mags > > > > I got the feeling Harry was planning on stabbing Sirius through the > heart with his wand. Something about the tone of the writing made me > think that. Oh well. Greg: > > More to the point, we see here that Harry learns to control his anger > and think rationally, rather than being ruled by his desire. I think Harry's urge to kill was pure emotion. He so hated Sirius at this point (because he thought he was responsible for the death of his parents) that I'm sure he would've done anything possible to hurt or even kill him despite the fact that Sirius was stronger and more magically advanced. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gregorylynn at attbi.com Wed Mar 5 18:37:35 2003 From: gregorylynn at attbi.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 13:37:35 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron is Dumbledore? w/(Hermione is McGonagall sub-theory) References: Message-ID: <004c01c2e346$4ab53280$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53242 Someone sez: " And what if Hermione were to follow Ron... (uh-oh, SHIP slipping into view) :)" Well, Professor McGonagall is pretty old looking and very Hermione-ish. If we assume that Ron is Dumbledore (just for the moment mind you) and that Hermione went after him, well, wouldn't it make sense for her to join in the effort? Dumbledore and McGonagall do seem to have a closer relationship than Dumbledore and the other professors don't they? There are issues of course. McGonagall seemed genuinely surprised that Harry, Hermione, et cetera were out after hours during the Norbert rescue/escape. Of course, she could be faking. Now, back to the main Ron is Dumbledore theory. I love it, I absolutely love it. I had a theory that Dumbledore was Voldemort who had gone back to undo the wrong he had done, but I like the Ron theory much much better. Aren't there about a million times when Dumbledore just seems to know more than he should? He knows that he should be suspicious of Tom Riddle even after Hagrid was expelled. He distrusts dementors (remembering perhaps that they almost kissed his two best friends). There's a million examples. And consider all the questions of why James would have left the cloak and key with Dumbledore, or for that matter, why would a young family have amassed a small fortune in savings in the first place. If Dumbledore had Ron's experiences, he'd have known, and could have prepared the Potters. There are some problems here, like why didn't he just tell them about Pettigrew in the first place but perhaps there are answers (he was trying to hide his identity, at some point it becomes clear that it's *necessary* for Lily and James to die). And if you think about it, if you were Ron, and you went back a zillion years and realized you needed to wait out that time, wouldn't you be concerned that you'd die first? I would, and my next stop would be...Nicholas Flamel, right? I love the possibilities with this theory, I really do. "Gregory Lynn" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gregorylynn at attbi.com Wed Mar 5 19:11:52 2003 From: gregorylynn at attbi.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 14:11:52 -0500 Subject: The Gryffindor Quidditch Team Message-ID: <006501c2e34b$152cb8e0$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53243 I'm a bit concerned about the Gryffindor Quidditch Team. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we know that Wood and the Weasley twins are out of school? What about the chasers? I don't know that it was ever specified but I got the feeling that Alicia Spinnet, Angelina Johnson, and Katie Bell were in the same class as the Weasley twins. If that's the case, isn't Harry the only one left? Even if the chasers are back, the team will be dramatically different. Who's going to be the captain? Who's going to be on the team? Will Ron get a shot? Presumably he's been playing quidditch with his brothers his whole life and at least three of them were good enough to make the team so there's a good chance he's got the ability. Any thoughts on what we're going to see? ___________ Gregory Lynn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From karenkyla3 at aol.com Wed Mar 5 20:05:51 2003 From: karenkyla3 at aol.com (karenkyla3) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 20:05:51 -0000 Subject: Ludo Bagman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53244 Tanya posts: > It is accounted for at the end of GoF Chp 37. George says "Turns out > he's in big trouble with the goblins. Borrowed loads of gold off > them. A gang of them cornered him in the woods after the World Cup > and took all the gold he had, and it still wasn't enough to cover > his debts." > > But all of this Ludo gambling stuff could just be a smokescreen. > Remember Winky says Mr. Bagman is a "Bad wizard! A very bad wizard! > Her master (Mr. Crouch) wasn't liking him at all." And Skeeter > comments that she knows things about Bagman that would "make your > hair curl." Me: I had thought of that after I posted - the gambling thing. Thanks for pointing out the exact reference, I hadn't looked for it yet. But I agree with you, it IS a really weak explanation. And it still doesn't hold up because if Ludo HAD been in the woods either before he spoke with the trio or between that time and the dark mark, he certainly should have been aware of what was going on. Very fishy if you ask me.... =) Stacey From julia at thequiltbug.com Wed Mar 5 20:40:07 2003 From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 12:40:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Gryffindor Quidditch Team Message-ID: <20030305124008.2447.h014.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53245 Gregory wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we know that Wood and the Weasley twins are > out of school? What about the chasers? I don't know that it was ever specified > but I got the feeling that Alicia Spinnet, Angelina Johnson, and Katie Bell were > in the same class as the Weasley twins. If that's the case, isn't Harry the > only one left? > Me: NO. Only Wood is gone. He left school at the end of Book 3. Fred, George, Katie, Angelina, and Alicia are all class of 96 which means that they are seventh years in Book 5. See the list at the HP Lexicon at http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/hogwarts_students.html. Even so, in Book 6, there will be a lot of people to replace - only Harry and whoever the new Keeper is (hopefully Ron) will be returning. That means they will have a very young and inexperienced team. I hope that Ron makes it onto the team in this book, since he loves Quidditch so much. Surely having so many brothers playing Quidditch would be an advantage? As far as captaincy goes, as much as I'd love to see Harry being captain, I don't think he'd want it, somehow. It would be nice to see the twins be co-captains. Maybe Ron could take over as captain the next year, if he does make Seeker in this book. Calliope "The Last Time" Chapter 21 is up! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/ See also: http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Mar 5 21:13:59 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 16:13:59 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron is Dumbledore? w/(Hermione is McGonagall sub-theo... Message-ID: <93.2b72d665.2b97c297@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53246 In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:26:20 PM Central Standard Time, gregorylynn at attbi.com writes: > And consider all the questions of why James would have left the cloak and > key with Dumbledore, or for that matter, why would a young family have > amassed a small fortune in savings in the first place. The fortune bit was answered by JKR in an interview. She said that James had inherited enough money that he didn't have to have a highly paying job. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yalithb223 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 5 20:11:59 2003 From: yalithb223 at yahoo.com (Jessica Iseman) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 12:11:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: hearing voices<--imagined & text of the voices Message-ID: <20030305201159.27872.qmail@web20712.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53247 Nobody's Rib wrote, I close with a fun project I took on. I pieced together all of what Harry heard to see how the full conversation may have taken place. (As I was typing the quotes out before, I saw minor discrepancies between some of them, leading me to believe that Harry is hearing different parts of the conversation with each Dementor encounter): ... then came a new voice, a man's voice, shouting, panicking - M (male voice): "Lily, take Harry and go! It's him! I'll hold him off -" The sounds of someone stumbling from a room - a door bursting open - a cackle of high-pitched laughter - F (female voice): "Not Harry! Not Harry! Please, I'll do anything -" H (high pitched voice): "Stand aside. Stand aside, girl!" F: "Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry" H: "Stand aside, you silly little girl... stand aside now..." F: "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead -" F: "Not Harry! Please... have mercy... have mercy..." A shrill voice was laughing, the woman was screaming. - Nobody's Rib, who, despite her musings, really wants Harry to have heard what really happened that night Meg wrote: "Well, when I read the scene all peiced together in my mind like that, I too have come to the conclusion that it must be Harry's imagination " "both of the adults seem awfully concerned about the safety of Harry. True, he is Lily's son and all but Harry's name just seems to come up a little to often. I don't really know how to explain what I am thinking here...Basically I think that if people were in such a situation, they would be very concerned about their own survial as well as their children. It also makes it seem like Voldemort was going after Harry first, which, knowing Voldemort, doesn't seem like something he would be very concerned about. Anyway, what I am getting at here is that perhaps Harry's imagination makes him almost the most important person in the scene because he wonders how he survived the whole ordeal. " Me: I understand how this could be thought of as Harry's imagination, but I tend to believe that this is actually Harry's real memory of the event. He has no conscious memory of it because he was too young, but the subconscious mind is much more able to retain the details. The dementors work like a Pensive to bring out every detail of the memory. As for his parents being too concerned for Harry, it does seem like Voldemort came to purposefully kill Harry and James only. He seemed to have no business with Lily until she got in his way. It leads you to wonder if there is something special about James's family that makes Voldemort feel like he has to kill them off. Perhaps this lends creedence to the Heir of Gryffindor theory. Just my two knuts worth-- Jessica (who should be doing research right now) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 5 21:25:09 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 21:25:09 -0000 Subject: The Gryffindor Quidditch Team In-Reply-To: <006501c2e34b$152cb8e0$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53248 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Gregory Lynn" wrote: > I'm a bit concerned about the Gryffindor Quidditch Team. > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we know that Wood and the Weasley twins are out of school? What about the chasers? I don't know that it was ever specified but I got the feeling that Alicia Spinnet, Angelina Johnson, and Katie Bell were in the same class as the Weasley twins. If that's the case, isn't Harry the only one left? > > Even if the chasers are back, the team will be dramatically different. Who's going to be the captain? Who's going to be on the team? Will Ron get a shot? Presumably he's been playing quidditch with his brothers his whole life and at least three of them were good enough to make the team so there's a good chance he's got the ability. > > Any thoughts on what we're going to see? > ___________ > Gregory Lynn bboy_mn: Excellent point, this has been briefly touched on before, but so has everything else, so don't let that bother you. My vote is for Ron to be the new Keeper. We know Ron is a decent flyer, but he doesn't have a decent broom to play on, and I think that is one of the reasons he hasn't pressed harder to get on the team. Since at the end of book 5, they will lose all the players except Harry and the new Keeper, I think they need to start evaluating people and start training a Reserve Team. I think that is what a Reserve Team is, these are the play that will replace players that are leaving, and who would be available to replace an injured player. For the most part, it looks like you can't addes/sbustitute a player in the middle of a game, although, during the game that went on for 3 months they did. But Wood played against Ravenclaw and apparently played with out a Seeker (Harry was in the hospital). Persumably, he played with out a Seeker or with a randomly selelcted Seeker because he doesn't have any reserve players. Although, he has had reserve players in the past, because one of the current chases was brought up from the reserves; can't remember which one right now. Also, remember that there are only 3 other guys in Harry & Ron's year, so they are probably going to have to build a substanial part of the team from underclassmen. Since Harry and, by year 6, Ron are the experienced players, I find it hard to believe Harry will be able to continue as seeker. My guess that Ron and Harry will become Beaters. Keep in mind that the only underclassmen that have any presents in the story are the Creevey brothers and Ginny. That leaves Seamus and Deam to play Chasers, and I suspect Colin Creevey as the new Seeker. Creevey brothers are WAY too small to be Beaters. None of the Gryffindor girls seem to have expressed an interest in QUdditch beyond wanting to win, and want to watch cute guys getting hot and sweaty (OK maybe to some extent I made that last part up, but they really haven't shown any interest in the game). So for the year/book 6 team, I see- Harry - Beaters - Captain in year 5 Ron - Beater Dean Thomas - Chaser Seamus Finnegan - Chaser Unkown - Chaser Unkown - Keeper (Hermine??? Pravati???...) Seeker - Colin Creevey I see Harry starting out as Captain, but I really don't think he wants to be Captain. So eventually, I see Ron becoming Captain in years 6 & 7. Ron Weasley - Mirror of Erised - Best Boy, Quidditch Captain, Quidditch Cup Winner ... heaves a heavy sigh... "My Hero," I say wistfully. bboy_mn PS: As a side note: when you start thinking about new players for the Gryffindor Quidditch team, you realize just how many Gryffindor students you DO NOT know. Senior Classmen not on the Quidditch team - Lee Jordan Underclassmen named - Creevey Brothers and Ginny That's out of roughly 70 to 140 Gryffindor students. From petra.delisser at postikaista.net Wed Mar 5 21:53:01 2003 From: petra.delisser at postikaista.net (brinforest) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 21:53:01 -0000 Subject: Ron is Dumbledore? More ammo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53249 I have to continue with this a little, because I can't stop thinking about it. And this is the second time I'm writing this, because the first time it was eaten by Ya-(know)-hoo. There's a passage in GoF where the little nuances of Dumbledore's behaviour look really interesting when read through this theory. It's when the trio go to Hagrid's cabin after they run into Rita Skeeter, and Dumbledore's there (p. 294): "Of course we still want to know you!" Harry said, staring at Hagrid. "You don't think anything that Skeeter cow - sorry, Professor," he added quickly, looking at Dumbledore. "I have gone temporarily deaf and haven't any idea what you said, Harry," said Dumbledore, twiddling his thumbs and staring at the ceiling. "Er-right," said Harry sheepishly. "I just meant-Hagrid, how could you think we'd care what that-woman-wrote about you?" Two fat tears leaked out of Hagrid's beetle-black eyes and fell slowly into his tangled beard. "Living proof of what I've been telling you, Hagrid," said Dumbledore, still looking carefully up at the ceiling. So, what's so interesting about the ceiling? Is it perhaps a very emotional moment for Dumbledore, sitting at the table rather privately with Harry, Hermione and Ron? (Because how many times are we aware of that he has been almost alone with all three of them?) Or, looking at it from a slightly different angle, could he be worried that, despite an age difference of almost 130 years, a certain clever and observant young person might start making connections prematurely, looking at two pairs of eyes side by side? Whew. Now to answer some of your comments, "grace701" wrote: > Will Ron die if Dumbledore die? No, because Ron is "the cause" and Dumbledore "the result". If Dumbledore dies, he will still have been young once, and in this case his youth would be Ron. "probonoprobono" wrote: > There's two things I've > found to contradict the theory, though. > One is that Dumbledore is described as having blue eyes (light, > bright, and sparkling)SS/PS Chp 1. > > Secondly, in GoF, Dumbledore mentions his own brother, Aberforth. > Chpt 24. > > Neither is concrete evidence however. I don't ever remember any > mention of the color of Ron's eyes. But, I would say light, bright > blue eyes on a flaming red hair boy would be a rather significant > trait worth mentioning. I think if we're on the right track with this theory, then Ron's eye colour is not mentioned in order to balance out the subtle hints, the descriptions of their similarities. After all, height, hair colour and nose have already been mentioned! The secret is practically *out*, no need to shout from the rooftops! :) And the crookedness of the nose, well. Even if he is Ron, Dumbledore has lived over 130 years we probably still won't learn everything about, so I'd say he's had plenty of time to break his nose. :) > Also, obviously if Ron is really Dumbledore, than the name > Dumbledore isn't real and we can guess Aberforth probably isn't > either. Which makes me wonder, which of Ron's brothers would have > been prosecuted for practicing innapropriate charms on a goat?? Fred > or George? Albus quips, "I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that > may not have been bravery." Literally, it wouldn't apply to any of > the Weasley boys, but I can certainly see Ron using a joke like that > at their expense. To me, the Aberforth story sounds suspiciously like Arthur and the flying car, with the ending thrown just for bluff. But you're right, it's one of the less easily adaptable points. And the name Albus Dumbledore... Ron, who has gone back in time and realised what has to be done, knows that is to be his name; we could also watch out for clues in Ron's life that somehow point the same way. Does that make sense?? "karenkyla3" wrote: > > Dumbledore says at some point that scars are useful - that he has one > on his knee(?) that is a map of the London underground. Any scars > there Ron? =) His broken leg in GoF - we never heard for sure whether or not there was broken skin involved? "snowwy54" wrote: >(snip) McGonagal could have been Hermione. Well, you know, that doesn't go down so well with me, because 1) I believe McGonagall is EVIL, see post 39470 by Elkins and you will too :), and 2) I think it would be more romantic if either Hermione followed Ron successfully, and as Dumbledore he's already been a widower for decades (Highlander, anyone?), OR the time-trip took them apart forever. Yes. I know that would be tragic, but also heart- wrenchingly beautiful. I've got one more problem to add. When Dumbledore questions Crouch Jr. in GoF, he asks about the Marauders' Map in a way that sounds like he doesn't know what it is. If he remembers everything else to the second and the tiniest detail, he can't have forgotten that the map exists. I can't even try to explain that at the moment, simply must get sleep. If I can get any in my even-more-obsessed-than-usual state! Brin From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Mar 5 21:55:35 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 21:55:35 -0000 Subject: new additions to the canon? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53250 Steve VanderArk:"Since then I have been informed by a source in the know that everything in the games is indeed either designed by or approved by Rowling." Okay, but we really don't know the extent of JKR's involvement - did she approve that the verbiage is "correct" in terms of her vision, or just approve the names and art? Until we know more, I think this material has to be treated cautiously. Steve, in his entry for February 22nd in the "What's New" section of the Lexicon:"I've started adding the considerable amount of information from those cards into the Lexicon. This will take quite some time, since almost every card includes information which applies to more than one Lexicon page. Also, there are some inconsistencies between the cards and the information given in other places in the canon." These inconsistencies are a reason to be careful until we know how deep JKR got into this. At best the cards are an outer ring of canon, an apocrypha on a lesser plane than the books themselves. There's no question, IMO, that the books should prevail if there's any conflict. Jim From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Mar 5 22:10:16 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 17:10:16 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron is Dumbledore? More ammo Message-ID: <1f0.395dc04.2b97cfc8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53251 In a message dated 3/5/2003 3:56:10 PM Central Standard Time, petra.delisser at postikaista.net writes: > So, what's so interesting about the ceiling? Is it perhaps a very > emotional moment for Dumbledore, sitting at the table rather > privately with Harry, Hermione and Ron? (Because how many times are > we aware of that he has been almost alone with all three of them?) > Or, looking at it from a slightly different angle, could he be > worried that, despite an age difference of almost 130 years, a > certain clever and observant young person might start making > connections prematurely, looking at two pairs of eyes side by side? > > Whew. Now to answer some of your comments, > Maybe he's just looking at the ceiling to give Hagrid a private moment to collect himself? Or to reinforce " the I've-gone-temporarily-deaf-so-say-what-you-will." > Will Ron die if Dumbledore dies?>>? <> If Ron is the cause and if he is killed will Dumbledore (the result) cease to exist? Melissa Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 5 22:12:15 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 22:12:15 -0000 Subject: Could the Spectators See the Inside of the Maze? (WAS: Moody at the Third Task) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53252 Catherine wrote: > If the maze was completely surrounded by stands, which would imply > that some of the spectators could see parts of the maze all of the > time, leaving very little of it completely impenetrable, BCJ's > actions would seem incredibly risky. and Amy responded: > However, other questions arise . . . didn't the spectators see Krum > hitting Cedric with the Cruciatus? Didn't they see Fleur writhing > in pain and ask her, once she was rescued (if she was), what > happened? Now me: This has always been a point of confusion for me. The third task takes place under "a deep clear blue" sky in which "the first stars were starting to appear;" the hedge is described as being "twenty" feet high; the passages within are "dark and creepy;" the "towering hedges cast black shadows across the path." Harry has to light the end of his wand to see. All of these descriptors suggest that the interior of the maze is quite dark, and that it would not be possible for those outside the maze (those who are not in possession of a magical eye, of course!) to see what was going on inside the maze. Which would explain how Fake!Moody got away with the various measures he took to help Harry. It would also explain why there's no indication that the spectators saw Harry and Cedric disappear when they touched the Cup. But the spectators are in stands around the maze. Which, as Catherine points out, suggests that they can see at least part of what's going on inside the maze. And it would stand to reason that what the spectators would be the most interested in seeing would be when the triumphant champion reaches the Cup. So I confess myself confused. I just can't make sense out of spectators watching a dark maze. ~Phyllis From dorigen at hotmail.com Wed Mar 5 22:54:02 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 22:54:02 +0000 Subject: Speaking of names Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53253 I looked up "bagman" in the OED, because I thought it meant something disreputable but couldn't remember what. Here's one of the definitions: b. One who collects or administers the collection of money obtained by racketeering and other dishonest means. slang (orig. and chiefly U.S.). It goes on at some length and with quotations to explain that specifically, a bagman is someone who deals with the ill-gotten gains of some other, higher-ranking criminal ... Ludo Bagman may not, of course, be as dumb as he appears, but whether he is or not, it's possible that he is the underling and/or cat's-paw and/or shield for a Death Eater. Maybe Fudge? I really don't like Fudge. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From piskmiffo at hotmail.com Wed Mar 5 22:49:05 2003 From: piskmiffo at hotmail.com (piskmiffo) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 22:49:05 -0000 Subject: Ron is Dumbledore? More ammo In-Reply-To: <1f0.395dc04.2b97cfc8@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53254 > > > Will Ron die if Dumbledore dies?>>? > > < Dumbledore dies, he will still have been young once, and in this > case his youth would be Ron. >> > > If Ron is the cause and if he is killed will Dumbledore (the result) cease to > exist? > If Ron dies, he will not be able to go back in time, and is therefor not Dumbledore. Though, if JKR somehow tries to make us *THINK* he died (if he for example faces voldemort and is never seen again) he could very well have gone back in time, which would fit the Ron! Dumbledore theory. I'd really like it to be true, and I hope that Ron!Dumbledore is either forgetful about minor details (because of age or whatever) or that he lies to McGonagall. Because otherwise there is something in the first chapter of PS that doesn't quite fit. "No, thank you," said Professor McGonagall coldly, as though she didn't think this was the moment for sherbet lemons. "As I say, even if You-Know-Who has gone ?" "My dear Professor, surely a sensible person like yourself can call him by his name? All this `You-Know-Who' nonsense ? for eleven years I have been trying to persuade people to call him by his proper name: Voldemort." Professor McGonagall flinched, but Dumbledore, who was unsticking two sherbet lemons, seemed not to notice. "It all gets so confusing if we keep saying `You-Know-Who'. [- !Here comes the key part! -]I have never seen any reason to be frightened of saying Voldemort's name." Well, never is never, but I sure hope he's senile. Anyway, later on in chapter 6. " and until Hagrid told me, I didn't know anything about being a wizard or about my parents or Voldemort ?" Ron gasped. "What?" said Harry. "You said You-Know-Who's name!" said Ron, sounding both shocked and impressed. "I'd have thought you, of all people ?" Dig up more stuff! :P /pisk From mazie123 at msn.com Wed Mar 5 22:57:16 2003 From: mazie123 at msn.com (morgan_le_fey787) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 22:57:16 -0000 Subject: Ron is Dumbledore? More ammo In-Reply-To: <1f0.395dc04.2b97cfc8@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53255 Melissa wrote: > > If Ron is the cause and if he is killed will Dumbledore (the result) cease to > exist? **the following is kind of long and more than a bit theoretical. If you find it to be a bit over your head, go on to the las paragraph, it summarizes everything without going into detail** :) Assuming that Albus Dumbledore is Ron at some point in Ron's future, I don't see anyway in which Ron can be killed in the first place. This gets a bit into physics and time travel paradoxes, but this is similar to the Grandfather Paradox (in which a hypothetical person goes backwards in time and kills their own grandfather before their parent on that side of the family was concieved. The question then opened is what happens to you if your parent were never born). One solution to the Grandfather Paradox is this: you can go back in time as often and as far back as you like, but you will still never be able to kill your grandfather. You want to go back in time and be a cause factor (you want to cause your grandfather to be dead) but since the effect of you NOT killing your granfather (your birth) has already happened, you cannot go back and change it. If you tried, you would simply fail every time you tried. For some quasi-real-life-application of this solution to the Grandfather Paradox, see the movie The Time Machine, based on a book by Jules Verne By applying this solution to the problam of Ron dying and Dumbledore disappearing, we see that Ron has already gon backwards in time (the proof of this is Dumbledore's presence. If Ron didn't go back in time, Dumbledore wouldn't exsist in the first place, much less disappear) therefore we conclude that he must servive to at least the ripe old age of 150 as we last saw him in canon. **To conclude, Dumbledore can die at any time in books 5 6 and 7, but Ron cannot die, because he must live long enough to go back in time because he has already done it.** ~*Morgan*~ From rpquate at earthlink.net Wed Mar 5 23:49:10 2003 From: rpquate at earthlink.net (redandgoldlion) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 23:49:10 -0000 Subject: "Re: hearing voices" <-- imagined? & text of the voices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53256 Hello everyone, As far as Harry's memories go, *I'm* not even exactly sure where I stand. I did post that I thought Harry had remembered the green light from AK before he talked with Hagrid Finwitch posted in reply: ...> Even before -- Harry remembered the green light, lying in his closet, > each night trying to reach as far back as he could. He *assumed* it > had something to do with the "car accident" that killed his parents. > ... Thanks for pointing that out; I couldn't remember for the life of me. Later she posted: > He did. And I, too, believe that the 'dream' was a memory. A memory > that also helped him to trust Hagrid... Yes, Harry *does* remember > his past - or has *visions* of it. After all, he has had visions > about future (Buckbeak in Crystal Ball, Triwizard Cup in dream before > he knew he was entering) and present (of Voldemort ending with his > scar hurting, at least I presume it was *present*. So why not past? > Either Harry remembers because he's held on to it - or he has a > *vision* about his past... > > -- Finwitch I'm glad someone else thinks Harry isn't imagining it; I felt so alone. :-) Also, in Finwitch's reply, she mentioned Harry's seeing Buckbeak as one of his "future visions." Perhaps I mis-read, but I always got the impression that he was making this up. Didn't he say something to the effect of remembering what Ron said about making his exam vision up and doing the same thing for his test? That just gave me a thought, though! What if he *did* see Beaky escaping, but just *thought* he was making it up - a sort of subconscious vision. Well, that's all I have to add. Sorry my attempts to keep my posts pithy never work... Any more thoughts? ~redandgoldlion~ From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 5 23:52:41 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 23:52:41 -0000 Subject: Ron is Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53257 Greicy wrote about a Ron!Dumbledore: > Will Ron die if Dumbledore die? I mean it maybe different timelines > because Dumbledore went back in time, but it's still Ron! > Dumbledore. It would be cool to *see* that in non-canon reference > (aka theatres), to see Dumbledore dying while fighting Voldemort and > a split screen comes up where we Ron just falling over for > absolutely no reason what so ever! Actually that would be cool, but if it is Ron going back in time to become Dumbledore then it is impossible. You see, Ron never split persons. When Ron went back in time, Ron was no longer in present day classes with Harry Potter. He was no longer there. When he went back he is now living his life as Dumbledore. Meaning that even when he is born later, he (in a way) died when he went back in time and did not come back. If Ron!Dumbledore died then "Ron" is dead. But he would not die as PresentDay!Ron. That Ron is not linked to Ron!Dumbledore except in the future. Am I making any sense? Look at this from this way too. If PresentDay!Ron died, then Ron!Dumbledore would have never come into existence. It is in fact the same person. If PresentDay!Ron was to die, then Ron!Dumbledore would cease to exist in history. Period. Not that this blows the theory out of the water at all. In fact, I find it most amusing. For if Dumbledore really is Ron, then MD becomes even more plausible you know. For Ron!Dumbledore *does* know who Scabbers is. He does see the benefits of a freed servant of Dumbledore, flawed potion, and how to work it to his advantage. He even knows that Quirrell has Voldie attached to his head. One thing though, Ron!Dumbledore knows that Moody is Crouch. So he just lets Barty play his charade and get the flawed potion to come about? Let's Cedric die? Seems a Ron!Dumbledore could find some what to make Cedric spew slugs or something to keep him from getting that cup. I know, I know, he could not change the future, but he could act less surprised by Barty's acting job. Dumbledore was rather furious. Maybe Ron!Dumbledore was caught up in the moment. Hmmm, Ron as Dumbledore. Given Ron's reputation to date in the series, seems Dumbledore does not have to be so squeaky clean now. In fact, that could cover a few of MD's dark spots you know. *Dumbledore* may not of manipulated all, but a Ron!Dumbledore. Well, he is *there* to manipulate it all. Though, what is he manipulating? Ron, when he went back in time, already knew what all had happened. He cannot change anything. So, what would he be doing as Dumbledore? Hmm, I think I am lost here somewhere. Oh, well. No big surprise on my part I guess. One more tiny thing: If *I* were Ron and went back to become Dumbledore, well I would get such a kick out of watching myself. I mean, not too often you get the chance to see yourself from the outside like that. I think I might of even trailed myself. Been my own stalker. Hehe. Takes a lot of intelligence and patience, to leave yourself alone like that. Let you make your mistakes. I mean, look at what parents do to kids sometimes to keep them from making mistakes. How much would you protect yourself from it if you *knew* it would happen? But then again, it had to happen or Ron would not be the way he was then, so....oh this is a vicious circle. And as for Alberforth? Well, when Ron took over as Dumbledore, he accepted on Dumbledore's family. He had all those years to learn about dear old Alber and his goat. And I bet after the Weasleys, Ron's eyes might of been a bit big seeing a family like the kind Dumbledore probably has. Melody From the.gremlin at verizon.net Thu Mar 6 01:02:30 2003 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 19:02:30 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron is Dumbledore? More ammo Message-ID: <20030306010230.YBHI5518.out001.verizon.net@[192.168.129.132]> No: HPFGUIDX 53258 As I jump into this thread for no reason at all: Brin: "So, what's so interesting about the ceiling? Is it perhaps a very emotional moment for Dumbledore, sitting at the table rather privately with Harry, Hermione and Ron? (Because how many times are we aware of that he has been almost alone with all three of them?) Or, looking at it from a slightly different angle, could he be worried that, despite an age difference of almost 130 years, a certain clever and observant young person might start making connections prematurely, looking at two pairs of eyes side by side?" I haven't been paying much attention to this thread (though I am now, because it looks interesting; hence this message), but I've always read that part to be DD just pretending like he hasn't heard Harry. Like he's concentrating on something else (the ceiling) and didn't hear him. Just a joke, you know. Don't know if that adds anything to the topic, but I'm just excited because my campus is showing the 2nd CTMNBN next week...I like this school... -Acire http://www.underground-newslet.com The Underground--Fixing your addiction for writing. "So sorry-dozed off-what have I missed?" Prof. Lockhart, Chamber of Secrets [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From flamingstarchows at att.net Thu Mar 6 01:16:52 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 19:16:52 -0600 Subject: Christmas References: Message-ID: <005f01c2e37e$12ff4960$161c570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 53259 ----- Original Message ----- From: Megalynn S. I know I am changing topics here, but why don't the Weasley's ever invite Harry to come to their house for Christmas? It just seems to make more sense to have one extra guest home for Christmas, than half the family staying in a deserted Castle Megalynn ----Me---- 1st year: All of the Weasley's were at Hogwarts since Ma & Pa went to visit Charlie in Romania 2nd year: They were working on the Polyjuice potion which just happen to finish brewing during Christmas break (good think Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle decided to stay, too). I know Harry said they only stayed to keep him company, but I think this was also part of the equation. 3rd year: No one wanted Harry to leave the safety of Hogwarts because they all thought that Sirius was trying to kill him. 4th year: Yule Ball - hardly anyone 4th year and above left my 2 Knuts... ~Cathy~ From hp at plum.cream.org Thu Mar 6 01:44:57 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 01:44:57 +0000 Subject: (Catching up) Re: Lockhart's books In-Reply-To: <20030302215818.70201.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com> References: <1046211998.2229.96321.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030306013836.00958580@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53260 Maria wrote: >In CoS ( i have the British hardcover), we read in page 38 that in >Harry's letter from Hogwarts his list of books includes Lockhart's >"Wandering with Warewolves". But in page 78, Lockhart himself tells >the class that if they had read his book "Weekend with a Warewolf" >they would know what his ideal birthday gift is. > >Is this a FLINT? Or are they different books? Having been away for the weekend and been otherwise engaged since my return, I'm a bit behind, and it's possible someone else has said this (though I can't find it under the present subject header), but my 34th edition Bloomsbury *paperback* has "Wandering with Warewolves" in both cases (same page numbers). So it would appear that it was indeed a FLINT, corrected once the paperback came out (or at least after the hardback edition you own). Good observation, Maria. I've not seen that one mentioned before! -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who knows it's off-topic for *this* list but would point to http://plum.cream.org/HP/misc/poafilming.htm for an explanation of at least one of the afternoons he was away from home, and why he was so busy yesterday. :-) From aesob at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 00:40:48 2003 From: aesob at yahoo.com (Alex) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 00:40:48 -0000 Subject: Not thorough, JKR? (WAS: Re: Could the Spectators See the Inside of the Maze?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53261 >Phyllis wrote: > So I confess myself confused. I just can't make sense out of > spectators watching a dark maze. Indeed. It makes as much sense as spectators staring at the still surface of a lake for an hour during the second task. Is it JKR being sloppy and not thinking about these scenes from the spectator point of view? Or even what was happening back at the stadium while Harry was at the graveyard? When Harry returns, he's mobbed by Dumbledore, et al, but no one really seems to say, "Where have you been, we wondered what you and Cedric were doing for the past 30 minutes" There's no indication that they've been gone for a while, nor that time somehow stopped. Again, bad planning, JKR? Lack of being thorough? That's what I think is going on. As much as I love the HP books, like many other series, there are always mistakes and problems. We know JKR's not perfect (no one is), and she's made mistakes (wand order, anyone?), and writing in series rather than one huge volume, (i.e., Lord of the Rings was all written before being published), she doesn't have the benefit of being able to go back and make sure the details are correct, so can we blame her? Obviously, we are all feeding on the mysteries and inconsistencies so maybe we love it as much as we hate it. ~~Aesob, who uh...hopes he can do a better job when he's a famous author... From lorischmidt1 at juno.com Thu Mar 6 01:30:59 2003 From: lorischmidt1 at juno.com (ladyofmisrule2000) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 01:30:59 -0000 Subject: A Portkey to more Portkey theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53262 I realize there are plenty of theories out there as to why Barty Crouch, Jr. turns the Triwizard Cup into a Portkey as opposed to transforming something Harry would use on a daily basis, like his toothbrush. After all, why go through the hassle of a Tournament if it's not necessary? But I had some questions about the ramifications of a couple of these theories... Theory one: Crouch uses the Cup because the Hogwart's staff might assume Harry was killed in the course of completing the maze; thus masking Crouch's role in the murder and allowing him to go on his malevolent way. Questions regarding theory one: What do you suppose was the next step in Crouch's plan? Sneek out and return to Voldemort? Continue on at Hogwarts and spy on the professors? Arrange a horrible demise for Ron or Hermione? Theory two: Whoever came up with the idea to transform the Cup wanted Harry to be weakened or injured in his trip through the maze because that would make it easier for Voldemort to finish him off. Questions regarding theory two: Does canon make it clear who authored the plan to turn the Cup into a Portkey? If it was Crouch, isn't it a breach of faith for him to assume Voldemort needs help polishing Harry off? And if it was Voldemort, wouldn't that be an unusual sign of self-doubt? Thanks in advance for helping me sort this one out. Lori From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Thu Mar 6 03:32:35 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 22:32:35 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] A Portkey to more Portkey theory Message-ID: <158.1cb888f6.2b981b53@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53263 Lori writes: > I realize there are plenty of theories out there as to why Barty > Crouch, Jr. turns the Triwizard Cup into a Portkey as opposed to > transforming something Harry would use on a daily basis, like his > toothbrush. IMO, I think Crouch wanted to get Harry alone. He didn't count on Cedric grabbing the cup with Harry or even being at the finish with him. If he had turned something Harry uses on a daily basis into a portkey there would've been a stronger chance that someone would've been around, seen him disappear, and gone to get help. ~Cassie-who's sorry she can't answer any of Lori's great questions right now~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 03:49:11 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 03:49:11 -0000 Subject: The Gryffindor Quidditch Team In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53264 Steve wrote: > So for the year/book 6 team, I see- > Harry - Beaters - Captain in year 5 > Ron - Beater > Dean Thomas - Chaser > Seamus Finnegan - Chaser > Unkown - Chaser > Unkown - Keeper (Hermine??? Pravati???...) > Seeker - Colin Creevey > >I see Harry starting out as Captain, but I really don't think he wants to be Captain. So eventually, I see Ron becoming Captain in years 6 & 7. > PS: > As a side note: when you start thinking about new players for the > Gryffindor Quidditch team, you realize just how many Gryffindor > students you DO NOT know. > > Senior Classmen not on the Quidditch team - Lee Jordan > > Underclassmen named - Creevey Brothers and Ginny > > That's out of roughly 70 to 140 Gryffindor students. You make a very interesting point. The book is full of important characters, but there's a lack of "supporting" characters now that it comes to the Quidditch team. We only know of 3 people who are actually interested in Quidditch: Seamus, Dean, and Ron. I haven't heard anything about the Creevey brothers being interested, but then again Harry is always trying to avoid them. It would be VERY interesting to see Hermione in the Quidditch team. Imagine, as the team are looking for players for the Reserve team, Hermione for one reason or another gets on a broomstick and flies showing off her flying abilities or perhaps sees a quaffle coming at her and she catches it and throws it back in the blink of an eye. Do you know what this also means? JKR *HAS* to introduce new characters, even if they are going to have minute lines like Angelina, Katie, and Alicia. Greicy From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 03:59:11 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 03:59:11 -0000 Subject: A Portkey to more Portkey theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53265 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyofmisrule2000" wrote: > I realize there are plenty of theories out there as to why Barty > Crouch, Jr. turns the Triwizard Cup into a Portkey as opposed to > transforming something Harry would use on a daily basis, like his > toothbrush. > bboy_mn: This was just covered recently- 1.) Why not any object? Answer: If Portkeys were easy, everybody would be doing them. Why use Floo Powerder? Why use brooms? Why not just use portkeys? There must be a logical reason, and the most obvious logical reason is because portkeys are not that easy to do. My personal theory is that Portkeys are a two stage enchaantment. First an object must be made portkey-ready. You must go through some extended process that makes an object able to be a portkey then once you have accomplished that you must use a relatively advanced enchantment to program the portkey parameters such as time, touch, destination, return trip, etc.... So, it is not as simple as Moody sneaking into Gryffindor tower, which in and of itself is not easy task, and saying 'ALAKAZAM your a portkey' to Harry's toothbrush. Even if he did, what is to stop Harry from saying, 'Ron hand me my toothbrush'. In which case, Ron disappears and Moody's cover is probably blown. So they need to arrange something that Harry CAN touch that they can also prevent other people from touching, and at the same time leave an extended mystery to solve that allows Moody time to get away. Missing from the Enchanted toothbrush, or whatever- 1.) Opportunity 2.) Stealth 3.) Reliability 4.) Fast Safe Exit - - - - > > Theory one: Crouch uses the Cup because the Hogwart's staff might > assume Harry was killed in the course of completing the maze; thus > masking Crouch's role ... bboy_mn: No, we are back to having an object that Moody can get Harry to touch while at the sametime preventing anyone else from touching. Moody is the one person who can act INSIDE the maze without actually being inside the maze because his magic eye can see through solid objects. That allows him to follow Harry and the other contestants; aiding Harry and hindering the others. The next step- Once Harry was gone and Moody was sure everything had gone according to plan, he was going to, presumably, slip away and rejoin Voldemort. He could continue his bluff for a while but pretty soon, people would realize the Moody was the last one to handle the cup, and they would start to investigate him, so I don't see he him hanging around much longer. - - - - > > Theory two: Whoever came up with the idea to transform the Cup > wanted Harry to be weakened or injured in his trip through the > maze because that would make it easier for Voldemort to finish > him off. > bboy_mn: What? Are you implying that the portkey journey alone weaked Harry, or do you mean Moody injured and weakened Harry while he was in the maze? Either way, I don't think so. First, Moody tried to get rid of Cedric by forcing Krum to curse Cedric with the pain curse. That should have eliminated both of them, but Harry interferred and stopped Krum thereby saving Cedric. Next, there is a good chance that Moody implelled (imperious) the Spider to attack Cedric in a last ditch attempt to prevent him from getting to the Cup, but once again, Harry interferred and actually attracted the spider to himself. So Harry being weak and injured was due to his own 'moral fiber', and not to efforts on Moody's part. - - - - > Questions regarding theory two: Does canon make it clear who > authoredthe plan to turn the Cup into a Portkey? ... > > Thanks in advance for helping me sort this one out. > > Lori bboy_mn: It makes it crystal clear, Voldemort's plan is to bring Harry to him, by making sure Harry won the Tri-Wizard's Tournament. Since winning meant touching the Cup, the logical extention is that the Cup was the means by which Voldemort planned to get Harry to him. The plan was alway that the end of the 3rd task would bring Harry to Voldemort where Voldemort would weaken him with a little torture, then he would kill him in a fair (ha! ha!) duel. Don't remember when we had this discussion before, but it was very recent and lots of people contributed to it. You might want to go back an check that out. Really, lots of interesting stuff there. bboy_mm From jodel at aol.com Thu Mar 6 04:50:54 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 23:50:54 EST Subject: Ron is Dumbledore? Message-ID: <110.20f4ef26.2b982dae@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53266 Well, I'll have to say this is certainly one of the more engaging of the wild time-travel theories to come down the track in a while. And even plays well. Except for one little detail. Time to comb the canon, everybody. Isn't there (at least) one point in the four books we've got where Ron's eyes are described as being brown? I'm pretty sure that there is. And we know that Dumbledore's eyes are blue. (He is one of the *very* few people in HP who *is* described as having blue eyes. Arthur Weasley is another.) Sorry about that, all. But do carry on... -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Mar 6 02:11:04 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 02:11:04 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron is Dumbledore? More ammo References: Message-ID: <3E66AE38.00000A.61795@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 53267 Tanya said - As long as we're watching for clues to Ron!Dumbledore, keep an eye out for Broken-Nose!Ron. DD's nose was also described as looking like it had been broken twice. Now me - I think that would have to happen after he went back in time because modern magical medicine doesn't seem like it would leave any trace of the event. Then Snowwy said - Wow I have thought for awhile of this possibility but I took it much farther because I also thought that McGonagal could have been Hermione. The hairstyle she wears could have been to hide Hermione's bushy hair. The trouble I had with this is that JK says D is around 150 and McGonagal is around 70. So unless they went back at different times but arrived at the same spot my theory doesn't work. Me again - well presumably something went wrong with the time travel both for Ron to go so far back and for him to be stuck so maybe hermione was travelling with him and they got separated. When Harry and Hermione use the Time Turner to rescue Sirius Hermione puts the chain round both their necks. Does anyone say what would happen if Harry slipped out of the chain midway (would he zap back to the present or woiuld he only travel back to the point where he lost contact with the TT) ? So maybe they use an advanced TT (because they'd be turning the darn thing over a heck of a lot of times to go back any significant amount of time) and accidentally set it for 150 years instead of whatever they were aiming for and then Hermione lets go of it halfway through the journey so she only goes back 70. Or actually, assuming they do it after school, 130 years and 30 years. Hermione wouldn't have to know in advance that Ron was Dumbledore - she'd just automatically seek him out for help. /pisk then worried - I'd really like it to be true, and I hope that Ron!Dumbledore is either forgetful about minor details (because of age or whatever) or that he lies to McGonagall. Because otherwise there is something in the first chapter of PS that doesn't quite fit. "No, thank you," said Professor McGonagall coldly, as though she didn't think this was the moment for sherbet lemons. "As I say, even if You-Know-Who has gone ?" "My dear Professor, surely a sensible person like yourself can call him by his name? All this `You-Know-Who' nonsense ? for eleven years I have been trying to persuade people to call him by his proper name: Voldemort." Professor McGonagall flinched, but Dumbledore, who was unsticking two sherbet lemons, seemed not to notice. "It all gets so confusing if we keep saying `You-Know-Who'. [- !Here comes the key part! -]I have never seen any reason to be frightened of saying Voldemort's name." Well, never is never, but I sure hope he's senile. Me yet again - Well if you're 150 and you haven't called Voldemort You-Know-Who for over 130 years I don't think never is that much of an exaggeration. He's probably trying to forget his youthful foolishness. It would explain why he insisted Harry live with the Dursleys - after all he knows in advance that Harry will make it to 11 if he does (because for Albus this has already happened, Oh good grief this is confusing) so it's a guarantee he will be safe. I would have to wonder though why if this was all true he didn't find a way to stop Sirius from spending all that time in Azkaban. Allowing Peter to hang around might have something to do with the theory that Harry saving his life damages Voldemort's resurrection in GoF - hmm that could explain Sirius too couldn't it. He knows Sirius will survive Azkaban and feels that Sirius would willingly sacrifice those 12 years if it would ensure Harry had an advantage over Voldemort at a later stage. You know the more I think about this the more the Dumbledore part fits. I think Hermione!McGonagall might need some more work. Oh and another thought - it would explain why h trusts Snape so much - becuase he knows Snape spends all his time protecting Harry. And why does Snape do this? Because James saved Snape from a werewolf who was only at school thanks to Albus. Sirius wasn't expelled so seems to have got off lightly for his role in that - but if Albus wanted he whole thing to happen then that's understandable. And it explains why Albus seems to have a pro-Gryffindor bias. K From psychomaverick at hotmail.com Thu Mar 6 04:18:24 2003 From: psychomaverick at hotmail.com (psychodudeneo) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 04:18:24 -0000 Subject: Weasley deaths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53268 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "karenkyla3" wrote: > > In response to the question of plausibility - whether killing all or > most of the Weasleys to secure Ron's destiny is too farfetched, I > would say that while it is drastic, it's not unprecedented. Think of > one of the more famous fictional sidekicks - Robin of Batman&Robin. > He's just a wholesome family boy until his entire family is killed > right in front of him. While I can't think of any others offhand, > I'm sure other famous sidekicks have gotten their start in the same > way. ME (First post in a while): I think the unlikelyhood lies in the number of Weasleys more than anything. I could see two to three getting the axe, but killing every single one of them - including the ones that are scattered (like Bill, Charlie, and possibly the Twins at this point too) seems like a lot of trouble for Voldy or his cronies to go through for Potter's SIDEKICK. Heck, at this point, I doubt Voldy even knows/remembers who Ron is, and just thinks of him as "that annoying redhaired kid Potter is always with". If we see Ron doing something Harry-ish to Voldemort in the near future, than yeah, I could see the Death Eaters hunting them down. Otherwise, I think that only a couple of Weasleys will go down in crossfire. And you refrenced Batman and Robin, and other similar sidekicks. The thing with most of the Robins is, they all happened to be only children. It's easy to knock off two people. Hunting down a small army of a family seems a tad unlikely and complicated. Yeah yeah, Voldy did it before with the Potters. But to suggest that Ron's lineage has the same importance/uniqueness or quality would diminish Harry's (not that Harry's special origins and talents couldn't use being took down a peg). "psychodudeneo" From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Mar 6 04:58:33 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 20:58:33 -0800 Subject: Ron's eye color, was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron is Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: <110.20f4ef26.2b982dae@aol.com> References: <110.20f4ef26.2b982dae@aol.com> Message-ID: <133109554400.20030305205833@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53269 Hi, Wednesday, March 05, 2003, 8:50:54 PM, jodel wrote: > Isn't there (at least) one point in > the > four books we've got where Ron's eyes are described as being brown? > I'm > pretty sure that there is. No, I don't think Ron's eye color has been mentioned in canon at all. Ginny's eyes are described as brown, Hermione's are brown, too, but Ron's eye color is still a mystery. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From ecrpotter at hotmail.com Thu Mar 6 02:16:46 2003 From: ecrpotter at hotmail.com (Eric) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 02:16:46 -0000 Subject: Ron is Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: <20030306010230.YBHI5518.out001.verizon.net@[192.168.129.132]> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53270 You know, this topic is absolutely fascinating. However, there's still a lot of holes in this theory (like there are a lot of holes in any theories). In PoA, it is sauid that it was Dumbledore's testimony that Sirius was the Potters' Secret Keeper that was the clincher that sent Sirius to Azkaban: "I myself gave evidence to the Ministry that Sirius had been the Potters' Secret Keeper." (PoA, US edition, pg. 392). Now, if Dumbledore really were Ron, he would've known from the start that Sirius was innocent and that Pettigrew was untrustworthy, especially because he was the one who let him sleep in his bed for years. I'm sure there's more if one searches. So, how are you going to explain this? Eric, E. C. R. Potter From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 05:16:26 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 05:16:26 -0000 Subject: new additions to the canon? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53271 Steve wrote: Since then I have been informed by a source in the know that everything in the games is indeed either designed by or approved by Rowling. I reply: I'd like to know who this 'source in the know' is and what this source's relationship is to both the development process involved with the cards, and also his connection to JKR. Not that I'm trying to pry or get personal information or anything. ;-) I'd just prefer to know that that person is very connected and a reliable source, particularly since you say that the people at Wizards aren't replying. Jim wrote: These inconsistencies are a reason to be careful until we know how deep JKR got into this. At best the cards are an outer ring of canon, an apocrypha on a lesser plane than the books themselves. There's no question, IMO, that the books should prevail if there's any conflict. I reply: I agree with Jim here, unless that conflict is overruled by some extraordinarily credible source. Even if it turns out that everything was written by her, I'd say that the cards are a lesser piece of canon. I'd say that mostly on the basis that JKR knows she's working with a piece of fiction, right? So, in other words, the answers we need probably are all based on the fiction. IMO, she doesn't expect us to go out and buy the cards to fill in any blanks that exist. Have fun with the cards, Steve! -Tom From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 05:28:33 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 05:28:33 -0000 Subject: A Portkey to more Portkey theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53272 Lori wrote: Theory two: Whoever came up with the idea to transform the Cup wanted Harry to be weakened or injured in his trip through the maze because that would make it easier for Voldemort to finish him off. bboy_mn: What? Are you implying that the portkey journey alone weaked Harry, or do you mean Moody injured and weakened Harry while he was in the maze? Either way, I don't think so. I add: I don't think that Lori meant either of those things. IMO, Lori meant that Harry would be weakened just as a result of going through the maze, right? He would be disoriented, tired, maybe even *injured.* I mean, this is a Triwizard Event, right, so as Steve points out with some of the obstacles Harry had to overcome, the maze (even with Crouch!Moody's help) would be an arduous and difficult task. I'd also like to add to that that using the Triwizard Cup as a Portkey was, as Pipsqueak argued in post #40044, not only a very effective way of sending a message to Dumbledore, but also of sowing panic, confusion and fear into the wizards in attendance. -Tom From petra.delisser at postikaista.net Thu Mar 6 07:42:29 2003 From: petra.delisser at postikaista.net (brinforest) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 07:42:29 -0000 Subject: Weasley deaths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53273 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychodudeneo" wrote: > I think the unlikelyhood lies in the number of Weasleys more than > anything. I could see two to three getting the axe, but killing > every single one of them - including the ones that are scattered > (like Bill, Charlie, and possibly the Twins at this point too) seems > like a lot of trouble for Voldy or his cronies to go through for > Potter's SIDEKICK. (snip)> Hunting down a small > army of a family seems a tad unlikely and complicated. Yeah yeah, > Voldy did it before with the Potters. But to suggest that Ron's > lineage has the same importance/uniqueness or quality would diminish > Harry's (not that Harry's special origins and talents couldn't use > being took down a peg). > Me: Remember that Voldemort is not the absolutely only one who could bring about the death of the Weasleys. We know of someone who has a major hatred problem towards them, an undoubtably evil and deceiptful personality, a sharply contradicting attitude towards muggles, and a DE background to boost. Even though Voldemort and gang want very much to kill Harry, I don't think there's any way the racism theme would be altogether forgotten, it's way too important. I strongly believe the DEs are going to kill muggles, muggle-born witches and wizards *and* pure- blooded witches and wizards who sympathise with muggles. Finally, the fact that the Weasleys are scattered *now* does not mean they will stay that way until the end of book 7, does it? There is still a lot to happen. Like people have been saying, there could easily be a time when the family are all together. And not every single one of them have to die, I personally believe in a theory that leaves Ron, Ginny and possibly the parents or one of them alive. Brin From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 08:54:33 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 08:54:33 -0000 Subject: "Re: Ron is Dumbledore?" (& Hermione=McGonagall, Hagrid, eyes, & much more) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53274 Eric wrote: > In PoA, it is said that it was Dumbledore's testimony that Sirius > was the Potters' Secret Keeper that was the clincher that sent > Sirius to Azkaban: "I myself gave evidence to the Ministry that > Sirius had been the Potters' Secret Keeper." (PoA, US edition, pg. > 392). Now, if Dumbledore really were Ron, he would've known from > the start that Sirius was innocent and that Pettigrew was > untrustworthy, especially because he was the one who let him sleep > in his bed for years. I'm sure there's more if one searches. > > So, how are you going to explain this? I've got a potential explanation! But first I have to start at the beginning of my thoughts, lest I jump all over the place and attempt to, ahem, time travel back and forth to different ideas. Here's the scene as I see it: Ron decides to go back in time to change the past (This, btw, fits with his desire to play the hero), but, as we've been discussing, Ron messes up and ends up 130 years in the past. Well, it really is foolish of him to go back in the first place, since purposefully changing *anything* could really mess *everything* up. (ex: saving baby Harry could somehow result in Voldemort killing baby Ron, and thus the space time continuum collapses... or something...). But Ron *conveniently* wasn't around when Harry and Hermione time turner-ed in PoA, and thus did not receive Hermione's careful warnings about time travel. And impulsive 17 year-old Ron would be thinking with his heart and not his head when he made the decision to go back in time. And anything that young Dumbledore!Ron did wouldn't be interfering with the past, because it had already happened. But it gets trickier once you get involved with people more directly linked to present time situations - situations you have previous knowledge of. (You can only *change* that which you are already aware of.) Once D!R is involved with situations, such as VWI trials that Eric mentioned, that Ron knew about, he is no longer operating purely off of D!R instincts, but instead off of future-knowledge instincts, and to change these aspects of the past would mean he would potentially change the future as well. I'm confusing myself here, but, luckily for us, D!R has had 100 years to ponder the metaphysics of time travel, and he would understand the intracicies far better. (That's a cop-out, I know.) My answer to Eric's question: by the time the trials roll around, D!R is no longer young and foolish but older and wise, and, regrettfully, D!R knows that he cannot risk his own existance (and the future's existance) by changing past events. But then how can he do things to interfere with HHR's lives to help them out? Easy - those things have already happened. Just like Harry knew he could do the patronus spell, because he had already done it before. And if I try to sort this part of the argument out any more, my head will burst. eye color: I had thought that Ron's eyes were blue, but have not yet found any places to back this up. However, if Ron's eyes are brown, couldn't an older Dumbledore!Ron have done a spell to change his eye color - knowing that his eyes were the only part of him that still resembled his youth, and hoping this might be enough to keep others from figuring it out? Also, if pale blue eyes/red hair are a recessive genetic combo, should we note that Mr. Weasley having that same combo might mean it runs in their family? McGonagall!Hermione: I think Brin first brought up the idea of Hermione going back in time, too, and then others (who I wish I could quote and give credit to) pointed out times when McGonagall is both startled or surprised by HHR activities and speaks to Dumbledore as if she did not know he were D!R. My explanation: picture this scene: Hermione is there when Ron goes back in time. She hears him say the spell, and hears him mispronounce it, but it's too late to correct him and whoosh! he has left the present. (I am reminded of "Oh, honestly, Ron, it's pronounced wing-ar-dium levi-o- sa." from SS, paraphrase.) She decides to go back after him, certain that they will be able to figure out a way to get back once she's there, and also certain that without her he is lost forever. Only, Hermione being Hermione, she can't *do* an incorrect spell correctly. She mispronounces it as close to Ron's way as she can, but is taken back 70 instead of 100 years. (note: We've already had proof that you must annunciate when doing travel-magic, or else you will end up in the wrong location, just like Harry did with the flue powder in CoS.) But what about McGonagall's surprise-reactions, etc.? Remember, Hermione is *very* good at keeping secrets, even from Harry and Ron. We've seen this both with the time turner in PoA and with her Krum ball-date in GoF. The secret-leeping plays into her relationship with Dumbledore!Ron, too. After traveling to the past she would immediately recognize that she needs to get back to the future asap, lest she risk screwing up everything later on. But "Wait a minute," thinks Hermione. "Who knows if Ron will be able to get back on his own? And if he can't get back, what if he goes and does something daft like try and rescue baby Harry?" The clever witch that she is, she figures out that Dumbledore=Ron and decides she must stay close to him and keep him from messing things up. But she also knows that exposing her true identity to D!R would only add to the already present difficulties of keeping their secrets, especially for D!R, and makes the difficult choice of remaining incognito. And thus we have an explanation for why Dumbledore and McGonagall are so chummy - they were best friends (and more?) in a "past-future" life so their personalities would naturally mesh well, and McGonagall!Hermione has made it her business to remain close to Dumbledore!Ron. It's also interesting to note that Dumbledore!Ron is not the only one with some Gryffindor bias - McGonagall!Hermione just happens to be right in there with the Gryffindors, too. This whole theory also helps to explain how Dumbledore knows where the Dursley home is (for when he drops off baby Harry) and that McGonagall knows to go looking for him there. The GoF twinkle in Dumbledore's eye: I assume that V's rising (and the manner in which it happened) is a pivotal event that effects the rest of the books. Could Dumbledore! Ron's greatest fear be that he not remember the details of day-to-day life in the right way (or he messes up here and there), and that that would change how V rose, thus changing everything beyond that and making the last 100 years of his life (and sacrificing growing up in the present) have all been in vain? But hearing Harry's story - and then going over to Harry's arm to make sure it happened in just the right way - is a relief, and he knows that if this event happened the right way then the rest will easily play out accordingly... Harry must be told at some point about all of this (otherwise the readers won't find out), and I think it would be metaphysically safe for D!R to spill the beans once young Ron has gone back in time. (And I can just imagine a great scene between D!R and M!H where she scolds him for "you almost blew it back in '66 when you...") Now that I think about it, D!R doesn't *have to* be alive to tell Harry about his journeys. He just can't reveal it until after Ron is gone. Which means that D!R can die before Ron leaves, just as long as Harry is able to stumble inside of D!R's pensieve after Ron has left and watch snippets of Ron/D!R's life. As for Brin's desire for Ron and Hermione to either time travel together or be forever kept apart, isn't just as, if not more, heart wrenchingly tragic for them to be together - but for only one to ever know about it for all of those years (compared to forever separated)? Dumbledore has been getting more and more "tired" looking: This is in response to Gregory's point that D!R would want to seek out Flamel in order to ensure that he stay alive long enough to see everything play out. I love this idea (especially since I think it's great when a series ties the roots of it all to the ending), and want to add on to it: obviously Dumbledore couldn't have been made immortal, or you'd think he would have also died when the sorceror's stone was destroyed. But what if, among the many experiments leading to creating the ss, Flamel found an alchemical solution that would ensure your life was extended for a certain amount of time - say, just long enough for D!R to make sure he was able to see Ron go back in time. (and it's not like he doesn't know exactly when that's going to happen.) D!R's time is running up, and so he's looking older and older. Also, this would mean that V would be *unable* to kill him, so D!R would have no reason to personally fear Voldemort (in addition to, of course, already knowing that V doesn't harm him.) inconsistencies with fear of saying V's name: Pisk pointed out that Ron is afraid of saying V's name, but Dumbledore says to McGonagall he can't remember a time when he was afraid of the name. By the time D!R reaches that McGonagall conversation, he might as well be a different person, so much time has passed while being incognito. And he probably feels like a different person, too. That's it for my adding on to others' ideas, but I also wanted to add a Hagrid element into all of this: Why does Dumbledore trust Hagrid beyond anyone else? If I were D!R, when I finally meet young Hagrid at Hogwarts, after all those years away from my old life, I would be overjoyed and want to get to know him, even while incognito. Also, Ron has already made a connection with Hagrid. In addition, D!R *knows* that he should trust Hagrid because when Ron was at Hogwarts he saw that that trust was not broken. Might D!R break down and, knowing he can trust Hagrid, tell Hagrid the truth about himself? After so many years, he must be dying to tell someone, and Hagrid is really the only option. (I suppose spilling all those thoughts into the pensieve is also an option.) He might not have said he was specifically Ron, either, but that doesn't mean that Hagrid couldn't be - at least partially - in on the secret. And not that there really needs to be much explanation for Hagrid's loyalty to Dumbledore, but if he were entrusted with D!R's biggest secret, that would certainly feed that loyalty. This will make Ron-Hermione SHIPpers happy: If Hagrid knows that D!R was Ron, then D!R would probably spend some time telling Hagrid all about Hermione. And, being a lost love, I'm sure his descriptions would be romanticized and grand. Doesn't Hagrid dote on Hermione a little bit? "An' they haven't invented a spell our Hermione can' do," he says in CoS (US Hardcover, page 116), making Hermione blush a "brilliant shade of magenta." And he also forces Harry and Ron to make up with Hermione when they stop talking to her in PoA. (Then again, that could just be Hagrid being Hagrid.) IMHO, Hagrid is one of the beloved characters who will die later on, which would not only make him a prime candidate for D!R to tell the secret to (since he knows that Hagrid never *did* and never *will* tell the secret, but also make D!R doubly happy to see Hagrid again (when Hagrid first comes to Hogwarts). And to add to the list of amazing things Dumbledore knows: he's able, without a magical eye, to see through the invisibility cloak. Or is he? Is it just that he already knows the cloak and those hiding underneath it are there? one example: "For a second, Harry was almost sure Dumbledore's eyes flickered toward the corner where he and Ron stood hidden [by the invisibility cloak,]" CoS, US Hardcover page 264, when they are taking Hagrid away to Azkaban. Things to keep an eye on: does Ron have a habit of looking at the ceiling to avoid others' eyes? Has Ron ever been described as having a twinkle in his eye? (LOL! How fitting is it that the Malfoys, who have forever tormented the Weasleys, also think that Dumbledore is the worst headmaster Hogwarts has ever had... And how ironic that Ron chose to study Divination...) I'm going to end this rather long and scattered post with a scene from CoS. I've been reading it over and over again, from the McGonagall!Hermione perspective, and I'm cracking up. And since this scene takes place after Hermione is attacked, M!H has no previous (personal) knowledge to act upon and is thus left somewhat free to act on her instincts. (I'm also realizing, as I interpret this scene, that I may have just boarded the Hermione-Ron SHIP.) Everything in brackets comes from me: > "Potter, I think you'd better come with me..." [said McGonagall.] > "Yes, perhaps you'd better come, too, Weasley," [said McGonagall, > wondering just how emotionally Ron would react.] > "This will be a bit of a shock," said Professor McGonagall in a > surprisingly gentle voice as they approached the infirmary. "There > has been another attack... another double attack." > And on the bed next to her was - > "Hermione!" Ron groaned. > Hermione lay utterly still, her eyes open and glassy. > "They found her near the library," said Professor McGonagall. "I > don't suppose either of you can explain this? It was on the floor > next to them..." She was holding up a small, circular mirror. > ['C'mon, guys,' she thought. 'I can't just hand you *all* of > the clues - you've gotta come up with this on your own. But, > honestly, you'd think this would be enough to speed along your > figuring it all out. You've got the mirror, I mentioned the > library... How much more do you need? How long are you going to > let me lie in the infirmary?!'] -- US Hardcover CoS, pgs 256-7 - Nobody's Rib (whose brain can't stop dwelling on this subject) From adam at sri.lanka.net Thu Mar 6 05:05:43 2003 From: adam at sri.lanka.net (Adam Green) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 11:05:43 +0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A Portkey to more Portkey theory References: Message-ID: <3E66D727.130DCAA8@sri.lanka.net> Steve wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyofmisrule2000" > wrote: > > I realize there are plenty of theories out there as to why Barty > > Crouch, Jr. turns the Triwizard Cup into a Portkey as opposed to > > transforming something Harry would use on a daily basis, like his > > toothbrush. > > > > bboy_mn: > This was just covered recently- > > 1.) Why not any object? Answer: If Portkeys were easy, everybody would > > be doing them. Why use Floo Powerder? Why use brooms? Why not just use > > portkeys? There must be a logical reason, and the most obvious logical > > reason is because portkeys are not that easy to do. > > me: Indeed, to re-iterate a notion that I my self did not realise until it was pointed out to me, either here at HP4GU or elsewhere: (I'm sorry I can't remember their handle) The cup portkey was the perfect plan. Remove harry from Hogwarts, whilst any witnesses would assume it to be part of the tournament. Kill harry and summon the DE's. Then use the cup to return to Hogwarts whilst the whole school is in one place with the band of DE's. Any large conventional-war-type-battle that would ensue would be complicated by the hundreds of people running around trying to get out of the way. A number of inportant people would be there, and those opposers to the the dark side would be in the minority of fully capable wizards in the vicinity, i.e. not so many ministry wizards. Would there be a more terrifying and dramatic return for Voldie? If it had of worked out then he would have also gained control of, what we are lead to believe, a very inportant institution in the UK, killed his main opposition, scared the kids and parents senceless and wiped out many Mudbloods as well as capture a building very suitable for an HQ. I read this section again last night (hence my post) and it's still amazing even after the 20 millionth time. yours, Adam who's hero is very much Dumbledore and who can't wait for Neville to find his true self and become an amazing wizard worthy of inclusion into the trio now quartet. PS and OT. A side note: When reading PS, one could be mistaken to believe that neville was part of the h-h-r group. He gets just about the same attention from JKR, ron and harry as hermione. it isn't until the Troll insident on halloween that we see the trio develope. Further, all the way through the series we see Neville a) scared when a fellow wizard is under the influence of another via some spell or curse and b) being clumsy in a very powerfull and magnificent way. To me these things add up to something very significant indeed. From gregorylynn at attbi.com Thu Mar 6 04:35:47 2003 From: gregorylynn at attbi.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 23:35:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Gryffindor Quidditch Team References: Message-ID: <000401c2e399$dce39900$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53276 Greicy: It would be VERY interesting to see Hermione in the Quidditch team. Imagine, as the team are looking for players for the Reserve team, Hermione for one reason or another gets on a broomstick and flies showing off her flying abilities or perhaps sees a quaffle coming at her and she catches it and throws it back in the blink of an eye. Moi: I don't think Hermione HAS any flying abilities. Remember she didn't like being on Buckbeak's back, and have we ever seen her on a broomstick before? Sure, it could happen, but flying doesn't seem to be her thing. Who decides who will be quidditch captain? I assume the heads of the houses. If I were McGonagall, I'd probably make Harry captain thinking it might keep him out of trouble a bit. If in their sixth year, the team is Harry (5 years experience), the new keeper (1 year experience) and a whole bunch of new players, I don't see how Harry isn't the new captain. I think that's a bad thing as I don't think he's going to have time to be captain which would likely mean that he wouldn't be on the team at all. But then, maybe I'm overreacting. ___________ Gregory Lynn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From museums42 at hotmail.com Thu Mar 6 05:36:08 2003 From: museums42 at hotmail.com (harrydraco42) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 05:36:08 -0000 Subject: Underage Magic at the Weasley's In-Reply-To: <92mh3c+jk2l@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53277 Perhaps in wizarding households like the Weasley's and the Malfoy's, there is too much "everyday" magic for the underage magic that Fred and George do to be detected. Also, children growing up in a wizarding household must know some basic magic, if that is the way things are done in their life. Makes sense, no? Colleen Sullivan "Oh, shut up, Weatherby" From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Thu Mar 6 05:59:57 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea Moggach) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 00:59:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Gryffindor Quidditch Team In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030306055957.90376.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53278 Just a thought here.. but with the return of Voldemort, is it possible that there WON'T be any Quidditch in Book 5? Or maybe in Book 6?? It's possible that there may be other more important issues going on - like trying to survive Voldemort. We know that Fred & George have one more year to go and hopefully this means that the girls do as well. So hopefully we will see Harry and his team in Book 5 but perhaps after Book 5 there won't be too much reason to have a Quidditch team, thanks to Voldemort. If you look at the players on the other teams, they also appear to be almost at the graduating stage - so all the teams should be on equal footing, if they are, in fact, rebuilding. Personally, I would hate to see the end of the teams - the games and especially the practices seem to be a great stress-reliever for Harry and I'm thinking that in the next couple of years he will have more than his share of stress. Any thoughts?? Lea :) --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From basementgirl74 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 06:03:41 2003 From: basementgirl74 at yahoo.com (The Sparrow) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 22:03:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cabbage smell,twins and time-turners Message-ID: <20030306060341.54597.qmail@web40502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53279 Morgan D wrote: In PS/CS ch 2, Harry describes Mrs Figg as a mad old lady who lived two streets away, and he says her whole house smelled of cabbage. In CoS ch 12, Harry drinks Polyjuice Potion and thinks it tasted like overcooked cabbage. That was enough to convince many readers that Arabella isnt an old lady at all. Me: This is a fine a theory as any of the others, but really, we have to think of the fact that cabbage is a funny thing, not to mention nasty. In England, smelling or eating cabbage is not uncommon, especially where boarding school and grannies are! I think it's just one of those things. Just because my socks occasionally smell of old cheese, doesn't mean my feet have a night job at the cheddar factory!!:) Pippin wrote: I have another to add to the mix. Doesn't it seem a mite suspicious that we have two sets of twins in Harry's generation (the Patils and the Weasleys) and none for the Marauder years? Me: Yeah, the twin thing..... Twins have certain powers that regular siblings don't have-telepathy/mind-reading being the most obvious. Fred and George are an excellent example of connected twins, being of the same sense of humour, abling them to have the same goals and finish each others jokes. It also makes them an impressive 'pre-emtive' pair of beaters! The Patils are interesting in that they're in different houses, and considering Harry hopes that Padma Patil's nose is dead center(GoF end of ch.22), we can assume they're not identical-just twins. Maybe this is another one of those things that are just that- one of those things. Cabbage is funny, twins are magical,people are not what they seem.... It would make it easy for twins to use time-turners though, 'cause if you were seen where you weren't two minutes ago, people would just assume you were the 'other one'I wonder about these time-turners,if they're rare like Invisibility cloaks-time is a tricky thing to be responsible for. Brings me back to my original thinkin' about Hermione's time-turner. Why should McGonnagal give her one just to attend extra classes? Is it because she's friends with Harry? Sparrow __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 06:12:59 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 06:12:59 -0000 Subject: Not thorough, JKR? (WAS: Re: Could the Spectators See the Inside of the Maze?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53280 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Indeed. It makes as much sense as spectators staring at the still surface of a > lake for an hour during the second task. Is it JKR being sloppy and not > thinking about these scenes from the spectator point of view? Or even what > was happening back at the stadium while Harry was at the graveyard? I think it's rather obvious that the spectators did NOT see to the lake nor the maze. Otherwise, why would Dumbledore had needed to discuss with Queen of the Merpeople or why would they have needed to shoot up sparks for help if they were being watched in the maze? No, the spectators didn't see the champions during the tasks (except for fake!Moody, thanks to the magical eye). Of course, we readers are watching Harry, so *we* know what happened during the tasks. The spectators probably had something else for entertainment? -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 06:47:22 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 06:47:22 -0000 Subject: Harry's big money gift In-Reply-To: <00c801c2e2b1$33a90980$4db15142@net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53281 > Carrie: > > I think along these same lines too. > > I understand that Harry just wants to be rid of the money. It's a touchy subject with Ron now so maybe he doesn't want to ask him...and he doesn't want to hold onto to the money until there is a better time. > > Harry has recieved anonymous presents before. He should be able to think about doing this for Ron or the Weasley family. Or even trying to make a deposit to thier vault. But he doesn't do any of this. Finwitch (me): Still, Harry's experience of anonymous gift (the Firebolt) that was from his godfather - remember how Hermione reacted? "Must check it out, it could be jinxed". If something (like 1000 galleons) suddenly appeared into Weasley Vault, Molly at least would be suspicious of the money being made into portkey or something, particularly as Voldemort has returned... Why scare them off? Carrie: > How does the Money affect Ron when he finds out about it though? Will Ron just not care? Will the twins be able to hide the money? I am sure it will be suspicious when they give him new robes and whatever else. Will he be jealous of the twins money before he finds out Harry gave it to them? Maybe he never will and this is just a way for JKR to get money to the twins so they can invent something for the next book. > I don't see how Ron would find out. It just isn't in the twins character (as I see it) to tell and Harry won't - and no one else knows, not even Rita Skeeter. And um.. Ron just wouldn't understand why anyone would want to get rid of a big load money with nothing in return. Of course Harry doesn't ask *him*. Hermione might understand, but if Harry consults her without Ron, then Ron would really be left out. And of course Ron would be suspicious, but his brothers *know* how to handle that. Something like... Ron: "Where did you get the money?" Twin1: "We try to give our little brother something nice..." Twin2: "... and he accuses us of stealing. So ungrateful of him" Or something. You know how the Weasley twins are... -- Finwitch From petra.delisser at postikaista.net Thu Mar 6 09:39:41 2003 From: petra.delisser at postikaista.net (brinforest) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 09:39:41 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore is Ron? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53282 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric" wrote: > In PoA, it is sauid that it was Dumbledore's testimony that Sirius > was the Potters' Secret Keeper that was the clincher that sent > Sirius to Azkaban: "I myself gave evidence to the Ministry that > Sirius had been the Potters' Secret Keeper." (PoA, US edition, pg. > 392). Now, if Dumbledore really were Ron, he would've known from > the start that Sirius was innocent and that Pettigrew was > untrustworthy, especially because he was the one who let him sleep > in his bed for years. I'm sure there's more if one searches. > > So, how are you going to explain this? > I think that if Dumbledore is Ron, he has had plenty of time to realise that things *must happen the way they always did*. If he were to change something big like Sirius' prison sentence, not to even mention Lily and James's death, who knows how that would change the history we know happened. If he changed anything, he would render himself clueless at the very least (when things subsequently would not turn out the exact same way as they did when he was Ron), or in the worst case, cancel out Ron's time-trip and thereby his existence as Dumbledore altogether. Of course, the latter might very well be impossible, as Melissa wrote. So in principle, I have no other answer to all the questions of "why did he let this happen if he knew". This is the *beauty* of the whole theory! Ron!Dumbledore's burden is that *he has to let everything happen*, there's no other way. I think it's even a good explanation. We've all wondered for years how Dumbledore seems to know a lot of what's going on with Harry, as if he has some yet-unknown special powers, but still lets Harry and others to end up in really tight spots and almost get killed. Remember how at some of the bad times, Harry sees him as looking very old, tired and weary? It could be because even though he has lived as Dumbledore for over 130 years, it is still painful to go through the hard times and not be able to do anything to change them. BTW, Melody mentioned timetraveller!Ron becoming part of Dumbledore's family. Well, as I see it, there can be no family already in existence, since there is no other Dumbledore but the one Ron becomes. Maybe, just maybe, he will have children that we don't yet know Dumbledore to have. My personal belief at the moment is that all older Weasley brothers will die, the Ron we know will be "lost" to the past (and perhaps Hermione as well), and the continuation of family will be left to Harry and Ginny. And as the soppy romantic that I am, I'd like either or both of two things to happen: 1) Some or all of the trio are aware of Dumbledore's true identity *before* Ron has to take the time-trip. Actually, I'd like for Ron himself to be aware of it, because that would reinforce the theme of Ron making a sacrifice. (On the one hand he will get the fame, glory and stand-alone hero position he always wanted, but on the other hand he will lose his life and friends in the present day and take on a mind-blowing responsibility!) Maybe Dumbledore tells them everything just before dying, so Ron has to face his own future death! (Now, PLEASE, nobody get too excited and think this is the "everything" he will tell in OotP. Please. It's too early.) 2) The other scenario would be more on the fun and light side (so I don't really see it happening:) ) - Dumbledore does not, in fact, die during the books, and Harry and the surviving Weasleys (I still hold that Ron!Dumbledore will have had a life together with Hermione in the distant past) will still have a kind of "Ron" in the end... only he's almost 160... that's ickle Ronniekins for you! Now that I've been thinking and writing this for hours, I noticed nobodysrib's post, which contains lots of good points and some I also thought of but from a slightly different angle. For some reason though, I just don't like Hermione!McGonagall. Matter of taste I guess! :) (I think Hermione's Big Thing that she will do to help Harry defeat Voldemort should be something different from time travel, and the going to the past to be with with Ron, if it happens, will be her happy ending.) Now I know there was one more point somewhere I had to address, but I can't find it anywhere anymore. No wonder I guess, with all these posts, all with different interesting input! :) Brin From koukla_es at yahoo.es Thu Mar 6 09:39:12 2003 From: koukla_es at yahoo.es (koukla_es) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 09:39:12 -0000 Subject: On Blaise Zabini's name Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53283 Hi, I don?t know if this has been brought up yet, but I have been lurking for a while the discussions about the meaning of Blaise Zabibni's name. Thus, I think I might add something else to the discussion. >From my Arthurian readings, I happened to find that there is a character called Blaise; he is Merlin's preceptor, friend and chronicler; it is to be found in "Merlin's History" and the Vulgata. So, this is a magic connection for the name and another proof to try to establish this student belongs to male gender. I hope it is useful for the debate, Carola, who is writing for the first time and feels a little too audacious for leaving lurking kingdom. From steinber at inter.net.il Thu Mar 6 10:58:52 2003 From: steinber at inter.net.il (asandhp) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 10:58:52 -0000 Subject: foreshadowings in CoS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53284 Hello all. I've not exactly been lurking for the last year. Rather Yahoomort doesn't like my server and keeps bouncing my posts. At least the digests keep arriving. Let's see if this route works. CoS seems to be 90% foreshadowing, and I'll explain a bit about why I think so toward the end of this post, but for the meantime - the predictions: End of CoS: Harry tells Dobby (paraphrase), "Just promise me never to save my life again." The obvious conclusion is that there's going to be some super-critical scene in book 6/7 where the only one who can save Harry's life is Dobby, and Dobby says (paraphrase): "But Dobby promised, sir, never to save Harry Potter's life, sir." Then Harry has to get around this, and learns - major moral lessons number umpteen and umpteen-and-one - (1) that one should never be ungrateful for other people's attempts to do favors, no matter how misguided their attempts, and (2) that one should be super careful with one's words. In CoS we learn: Dobby is in possession of Malfoy secrets, and is super-loyal to Harry. Very likely conclusion: They'll go sneaking around Malfoy Manor together to collect clues. CoS not only introduces Polyjuice but also the fact that animal parts mess up the potion in specific ways. Possible followup: The animal variation may well be used again for good or for ill. Moaning Myrtle and Polyjuice have returned, and are due to return some more, so that's obvious. But I think it's clear that Aragog will surely return, too, as will the Weasley's car, and play important supporting roles. Otherwise, what did we need them for? Also, I highly believe that on some future occasion, Harry will again be loyal to Dumbledore and get the aid of Fawkes and the Sorting Hat. The mandrake remedy may come in useful again. As for remedies, I wonder if the bezoar Harry heard of his first day in potions will ever be needed. Keep your eyes open for a goat! The whole interrogation of Draco which goes nowhere seems to my mind to be a setup so that later in the series Draco will indeed be a culprit and they will discount the possibility of his guilt, because they had "been there, done that." Not that I think Draco will be particularly Evil or connected to the DEs. Personally, I think he'll try to do some moderate something independently of everyone, to "prove" to his father that he's not a complete loser; then his rig will backfire and his father and V will be extremely angry at him. Probably he'll overhear his father saying how great it would be if such-and-such happened, and then Draco will go and do it and botch everything for both sides. Harry's visit to Dumbledore's office in CoS is most peculiar. Nothing at all happens except foreshadowing - we learn that Fawkes can carry heavy weights and that his tears heal, that the Sorting Hat has a life beyond the first day of each year, and what else? These are useful facts for the climax of CoS, but there must be more to the scene or JK was being quite sleepy when she wrote it. Any of those facts could have been slipped in in a better way. Granted, the whole series is desiged around moral lessons, and this teaches one - "Be open with your headmaster" - but still, nowhere else does she write a whole scene whose main purpose is to teach such a lesson. Everywhere else, her moral educating is brilliantly deft (I'll save expounding for another time). So I fully hope that some major clue will develop out of that scene - or else I will write JK in fifteen years, when her mailbag is finally empty, to complain about sloppy writing. Harry being a Parselmouth, which Dumbledore "thinks" "might be" because V passed on some powers. And Harry's TM Riddle recognition in Moaning Myrtle's bathroom. And Snape's "look" at Harry when he talks to the snake at the duel. And Riddle's comments about the two of them having lots in common. - I have a bomb of a theory about these, which I'm afraid to share because if it's true it would truly spoil the rest of the series for everybody. On the other hand, I'd hate for someone else to post it first. Mods and fans - what do you suggest I do? Now for the principles behind these speculations: Looking at PS/SS, not a single line is wasted. Every piece of plot to the last twist has a narrative function. Even CoS shows great economy in many places. I particularly like the scene with Dobby in the hospital wing, followed by Colin being brought in. It's typical of the extremely tight, smooth transitions that make the series an irresistible page turner, even with the very mild, innocent suspense of PS/SS. So anything which JK writes that could be written more economically is either (1) foreshadowing, or (2) nodding off on the job. Now, I am a great believer that JK did nod off a few times, or rather, get pressured by deadlines to leave quite a bit unfinished and un-tied-up. She's only human, after all. And she's reported having had writer's block while writing CoS, and she got the book out in a year, so she could certainly have slipped up over a few scenes, particularly the one in Dumbledore's office that I mentioned above. But Dobby, for example, is a perfect case of heavy foreshadowing. On the one hand, he is too woven in to the book to be a nod-job. But on the other hand, he is completely superfluous, narrative functionally. At the Dursley's, he serves to get Harry in trouble with the MoM and locked in his room. This could have been done very easily without him. He also steals Harry's mail. No need for a house-elf for that. Later, he blocks the gate to 9 3/4. This could have been done dozens of other ways, and could even have been skipped. The only *functions* served by the car trip are (1) to get H&R in trouble with Snape [no news], (2) to get them detention, so Harry can spend time with Lockhart, and so Ron can see Riddle's cup [small potatoes], (3) to get the Weasley's car to Hogwarts [potentially important]. Let's say the gate-locking and car-transporting were necessary for that last reason. But getting the Weasley's car to Hogwarts could certainly have been accomplished without Dobby. Later, Dobby sends his rogue bludger. What for (narrative functionally)? So Lockhart can remove his bones? What for? So Harry can be in the hospital wing and hear Dumbledore say "The chamber has been opened...."? Let's say that all this was necessary. But Harry could have gotten hospitalized without Dobby. He's done it plenty of times before and since. Finally, the last scene with Dobby. What's Dobby doing there? To clue Harry in that Lucius is at fault for the diary. Again, this could be accomplished without a house-elf. Certainly, it doesn't need a house-elf who's tried to kill/save Harry all year. And who then gets freed thanks to Harry. What's going on? The *only* answer that fits all this plot-working is that it is expressly designed to work up to that last line where Harry gets Dobby to promise not to save his life. For that line to happen, you need someone to try to save your life and also to try to kill you in the process. That kind of someone has to be somewhat weird (house-elf), and has to have a motive (an informed Malfoy house- elf). Everything else is just manipulations to work this weird-person- with-motive into the story, so that three books later, the climax can happen where Dobby won't save Harry because he promised not to. Otherwise, nothing makes narrative-functional sense. And JK's proven herself a master of narrative function. If I had the patience, I could go through PS/SS and show the complete narrative functionality of everything there. But that's for another time. Meanwhile, looking at CoS, it is extremely full of loose and dead ends. Most of what's in there serves *no* narrative function within the book. Polyjuice goes nowhere - it's a dead end. Aragog is the same. The removal of Hagrid and Dumbledore don't produce any noticeable results except mood. The Deathday party goes nowhere - Myrtle could have been met later and Harry could have missed any old dinner, rather than the feast, as indeed happens in the movie. The Valentine day stuff leads only to Ginny's revelation that Harry has Riddle's diary - a rather loose bit of plotting (also dropped from the movie). The Ron-eating-slugs part is a very talky, not forward- moving chapter, full of info but no plot. The dueling club meets for one session and disappears. Sloppy, sloppy, sloppy, unless it's all about foreshadowing. Like I wrote above, I'm ready to credit much of this to foreshadowing, but not all. I think the slugs chapter, the deathday party, and the dueling club are truly sloppy. I think if JK had had more time, she should have put some follow-up to the dueling club itself, let it continue throughout the year, in the background, or wind it down some other way, not have it show up as useful flash to teach about Parseltongue and expelliarmus and then disappear. Likewise the Deathday party should link into something. I can't think too highly of the end of the Polyjuice episode either - the idea that Hermione got into no trouble with the staff makes zero sense. They saw her missing from classes and have free access to the hospital wing. The only reason she could have escaped trouble is that JK at the time was afraid of writing too long a book and just dropped the subject. (Happily, she's learned better.) But Aragog, the Weasley car, Hagrid's and Dumbledore's removal and some of the other things I mentioned work very well as foreshadowings, which saves JK from being a completely sloppy writer when under pressure. (But then, we all know that! :)) So there you have it. Some of my ruminations of the past year, and I hope that Yahoo and the mods get this through this time. The Admiring Skeptic From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Mar 6 12:00:06 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 12:00:06 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] foreshadowings in PS References: Message-ID: <3E673845.000001.91733@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 53285 The Admiring Skeptic said in passing - The mandrake remedy may come in useful again. As for remedies, I wonder if the bezoar Harry heard of his first day in potions will ever be needed. Keep your eyes open for a goat! Me - I was wondering about the bezoar and the other stuff Snape said in that first class too. I saw the film before I read the books and the scene didn't make much impression on me - probably because I assumed it was just there to show what a nasty person Snape is (I actually think I might have spotted he wasn't the villain if I'd been reading the book, but it's Alan Rickman and he usually is a villain so I didn't). It also didn't make much of an impact when I read the books the first time - but I was mainly looking for the differences between book and film, plus I was devouring the thing at a high speed. Anyway when I got the dvd I watched the scene again and it struck me as being blindingly obvious that Snape seems to be trying to get some information into Harry's head rather than just being mean. (I'm not saying it is obvious, just that it was obvious to me, but then it's obvious to me that Remus and Sirius are in love and that's probably not true either) The whole series of questions and answers seems to be specifically designed to get those few facts to stick in Harry's head - which naturally makes me wonder why. Does anyone have any theories on exactly what Snape is trying to do there? (other than show Harry that he's nothing special and that Snape won't be giving him any kind of easy ride, because I think that's more of an added bonus for Snape than the point) And you never know if the bezoar is important we might well see a goat and then one of the Weasleys can perform inappropriate magic on it and all the Ron=Dumbledore proponents can feel vindicated :) K From mbarclay at lee.edu Thu Mar 6 14:51:40 2003 From: mbarclay at lee.edu (Barclay, Maggie) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 08:51:40 -0600 Subject: The Gryffindor Quidditch Team Message-ID: <8F497E280916D4119B0100A0C9EA53E7021D59EA@leonardo.lee.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 53286 Gregory: I don't think Hermione HAS any flying abilities. Remember she didn't like being on Buckbeak's back, and have we ever seen her on a broomstick before? Sure, it could happen, but flying doesn't seem to be her thing. Mags: I don't have my book with me, and I'm fearing movie contamination, but I'm about 90% positive that Harry, Ron, AND Hermione fly on the three broomsticks propped against the wall to catch the flying key in PS/SS. So she does have some flying capabilities. . . Mags [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gingerssnap1966 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 15:49:58 2003 From: gingerssnap1966 at yahoo.com (gingerssnap1966) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 15:49:58 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore is Ron? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53287 Facinating posts, everyone! One thing bothers me: Hermione went on and on about how they must not be seen. Dumbledore and Ron see each other quite a bit. Dumbledore also knows Molly and Arthur. Wouldn't they have noticed a family resemblance? Especially if they've noticed it in Ron? Although.... it did strike me that when Ron was standing by the Shreiking Shack in PoA whilst Invisible!Harry was teasing Malfoy and company, Ron made the comment " 'very haunted up here, isn't it?' with the air of one commenting on the weather." It sounds like Dumbledore on several occasions when he knows what is going on and someone else is losing their cool. He just smiles and makes a bland comment betraying his amusement. AAAAAAAARGH! NO! The vortex! I'm being sucked into the vortex! Almost convinced, Ginger From karenkyla3 at aol.com Thu Mar 6 14:41:33 2003 From: karenkyla3 at aol.com (karenkyla3) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 14:41:33 -0000 Subject: Weasley deaths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53288 "psychodudeneo" wrote: > I think the unlikelyhood lies in the number of Weasleys more than > anything. I could see two to three getting the axe, but killing > every single one of them - including the ones that are scattered > (like Bill, Charlie, and possibly the Twins at this point too) seems > like a lot of trouble for Voldy or his cronies to go through for > Potter's SIDEKICK. (snip)> Now Me: Well, in this theory, if you read back, Ron isn't just a 'sidekick'. The reason the Weasley's would have to be dead is so that Ron is the heir (the eldest or only child) of Hufflepuff. Hermione the heir of Ravenclaw (she's already from the information we have, an only sibling) and Harry as the heir of Gryffindor. We were speculating that if in fact Harry is the heir of Gryffindor as the evidence points to, who were the other heirs? (we know Voldy is heir of Slytherin). Under the assumption that these would be Ron and Hermione, Ron must be made an only or oldest child to be the heir - thus the killing spree. So you see, within the parameters of this theory, Ron isn't a 'sidekick' but an equally important force. Taking a slightly different perspective, in order for Ron to be an heir, he must be the eldest of his siblings. Instead of killing them all, could the same effect be achieved by not making them siblings? Suppose Mrs. Weasley had had an affair, and it was the father's bloodline that carried the heir of Hufflepuff? Which brings up another question - who? Theoretically it could be anyone who isn't important at all, but interesting that Dumbledore had red hair. Stacey CONSTANT VIGILANCE! From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 15:56:49 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 15:56:49 -0000 Subject: foreshadowings in PS In-Reply-To: <3E673845.000001.91733@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53289 K wrote: >I was wondering about the bezoar and the other stuff Snape said in >that first class too. I say, imo, that the centaurs are coming back or what they mentioned about looking at the stars and fortelling the future (or something to that extent) is going to mean something later on. It already has in a way because Harry is taking Professor Trelawney's class where they do look up at the sky and try to predict things. I, personally, would like the centaurs to come back. The unicorn came back, even if it was a small part in GoF in Hagrid's class. As a matter of fact, *anything* related to the forest *has* to come back into the series. The forest and its inhabitants are way too mysterious to just leave it. The trio need to get back in there for some reason or another. Perhaps dig up Crouch's bones? Greicy, with her farfetched ideas :D From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 16:05:28 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 16:05:28 -0000 Subject: A Portkey to more Portkey theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53290 ladyofmisrule2000 wrote: >I realize there are plenty of theories out there as to why Barty >Crouch, Jr. turns the Triwizard Cup into a Portkey as opposed to >transforming something Harry would use on a daily basis, like his >toothbrush. Steve aka bboy_mn wrote: >This was just covered recently- >1.) Why not any object? Answer: If Portkeys were easy, everybody >would be doing them. Why use Floo Powerder? Why use brooms? Why not >just use portkeys? There must be a logical reason, and the most >obvious logical reason is because portkeys are not that easy to do. Voldemort, Barty Crouch Jr. or whomever picked that specific date, that specific event and that trophy because not only did they want to send Harry to Voldemort, but also to let the WW that he is back. They theorized that once Harry left through the portkey and never went back, that the WW would know there can only be one reason for his disappearance and one reason only: A warning, Voldemort is back so watch out! Another warning, actually, since the dark mark was shown to all the night of the Quidditch World Cup. Greicy From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 16:12:13 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 08:12:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Re: The Gryffindor Quidditch Team In-Reply-To: <8F497E280916D4119B0100A0C9EA53E7021D59EA@leonardo.lee.edu> Message-ID: <20030306161213.67537.qmail@web40505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53291 "Barclay, Maggie" wrote: Gregory: I don't think Hermione HAS any flying abilities. Remember she didn't like being on Buckbeak's back, and have we ever seen her on a broomstick before? Sure, it could happen, but flying doesn't seem to be her thing. Mags: I don't have my book with me, and I'm fearing movie contamination, but I'm about 90% positive that Harry, Ron, AND Hermione fly on the three broomsticks propped against the wall to catch the flying key in PS/SS. So she does have some flying capabilities. . . Mags You are correct, in the book all three of them fly on the broomsticks to catch the key. Ron and Hermione try to cut it off so Harry can capture it. Also, they did have flying lesson, so Hermione did learn to fly. And as far as not liking riding on Buckbeak, Harry didn't find it comfortable either. He said he didn't know where to hold on and that he much prefered his Nimbus. And I think it would be VERY interesting to see Hermione and Ginny and the new beaters after the twins graduate:) ~Kathryn --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 16:17:56 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 16:17:56 -0000 Subject: Ron is Dumbledore?/Ron's eye color In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53292 Greicy wrote: >Will Ron die if Dumbledore die? I mean it maybe different timelines >because Dumbledore went back in time, but it's still Ron! >Dumbledore. It would be cool to *see* that in non-canon reference >(aka theatres), to see Dumbledore dying while fighting Voldemort and >a split screen comes up where we Ron just falling over for >absolutely no reason what so ever! Melody wrote: > Look at this from this way too. If PresentDay!Ron died, then > Ron!Dumbledore would have never come into existence. It is in fact > the same person. If PresentDay!Ron was to die, then Ron!Dumbledore > would cease to exist in history. Period. Thank you for explaining it in a way I could understand, Melody. I was getting lost there after reading like three explanations. Now I remember reading and I believe it was in PS/SS that Ron has brown eyes. Actually, I think it was also a question at www.scholastic.com or was it about Ginny. I am so confused now! This is such a good theory even if I'm not keen on it, but I'm sure Ron!Dumbledore changed his identity a bit so that no one will recognize him. It is more than likely because he wouldn't want to give anything away. Right? Greicy From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 16:33:13 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 16:33:13 -0000 Subject: Ludo Bagman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53293 Stacy wrote: >I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I am just into >my third read of the series and something about Ludo Bagman stuck >out at me in GoF. Earlier in the book after the Quidditch match, >in the midst of the confusion when the muggles are being tormented, >but before the dark mark is released, the trio are in the woods >hiding per Mr. Weasley's instructions. It's on pages 126-127 in >the hardcover American version: > "...Ludo Bagman emerged from behind a tree right ahead of them. >Even by the feeble light of the two wands, Harry could see that a >great change had come over Bagman. He no longer looked buoyant and >rosy-faced; there was no more spring in his step. He looked very >white and strained. "Who's that?" he said, blinking down at them, >trying to make out their faces. "What are you doing in here, all >alone?" >They looked at one another, surprised. "Well - there's a sort of >riot going on," said Ron. Bagman stared at him. "What?" "At the >campsite... some people have got hold of a family of muggles..." >Bagman swore loudly. "Damn them!" he said, looking quite >distracted, and without another word, he Disapparated witha small >pop! "Not exactly on top of things, Mr. Bagman, is he?" said >Hermione, frowning." >To my recollection, this bizarre behavior was never accounted for >was it? Why did Bagman emerge appearing haggard and disoriented if >he didn't know that anything was wrong? For that matter, why was >he in the woods at all if he didn't know what was wrong? (at this >point the trio are in the woods, not near the tents) Who is he >referring to when he says "Damn them!"? If he were just frustrated >that random unknown people were tormenting muggles, he would have >said "Damn it" in frustration, not "Damn them" almost as if he knew >who it was. >Then JKR makes a point again to say he still looks quite distracted >and Hermione goes on to point this out too. It gets even more >interesting because after a decent amount of time has passed (the >dark mark has been displayed, Diggory is already questioning >Winky), Bagman appears again, out of breath, and in the same exact >spot he had Disapparated from while talking to the trio some time >before. He is completely unaware of the mark. Had he been tending >to the muggle situation, he would have seen the mark. So where was >he and why is he still clueless? >"Just then there was another pop, and Ludo Bagman Apparated right >next to Mr. Weasley. Looking breathless and disoriented, he spun >on the spot, goggling upward at the emerald-green skull. "The Dark >Mark!" he panted, almost trampling Winky as he turned inquiringly >to his colleagues. "Who did it? Did you get them? Barty! What's >going on?..." (pages 132-133 of hardcover GoF) >He goes on to ask Crouch why he never showed up to his box - an odd >question considering THE DARK MARK IS ABOVE HIS HEAD. I can't >believe none of this struck me as odd on my first two read- >throughs, but for some reason this really stands out as bizarre >behavior to me and I don't recall it ever being explained (though i >could be wrong, I haven't finished GoF this time yet and it's been >awhile since my last readthrough). Anyone have any thoughts to >what Bagman was up to? Has this been discussed before? I don't trust Bagamn. If I'm not mistaken, Bagman was accused of being a DE, right? He got off because he was a famous Quidditch player and because he supposedly wasn't involved. He may have not gone back to Voldemort when the dark mark appeared on his forearm because he's afraid of him now. It goes back to the whole who are the three missing people Voldemort speaks of. Is he the coward? He sure looks like a coward to me. I sometimes picture Bagman as being like Lockhart, totally blinded by his fame to not notice anything else that is happening around him, or simply clueless. If Bagman is not a DE and/or blinded by his "fame", he is most definitely clueless and hopeless at that for taking advantage of teenagers (the twins). Greicy From dorigen at hotmail.com Thu Mar 6 16:45:52 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 16:45:52 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Weasley deaths Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53294 >Taking a slightly different perspective, in order for Ron to be an >heir, he must be the eldest of his siblings. Instead of killing them >all, could the same effect be achieved by not making them siblings? >Suppose Mrs. Weasley had had an affair, and it was the father's >bloodline that carried the heir of Hufflepuff? Which brings up >another question - who? Theoretically it could be anyone who isn't >important at all, but interesting that Dumbledore had red hair. Okay, I was reading along, nodding at the logic of this theory (I don't believe it at all, but it is entertaining), until I came to this. I do not think Dumbledore could be the heir of Hufflepuff; to my mind, he's Gryffindor through and through. Besides, he's got not only the Sorting Hat (which could be because he's headmaster), but the Gryffindor sword. (Question: are there artifacts for the other three houses?) Also, if Dumbledore *were* the heir, his fathering a child wouldn't make the child the heir until Dumbledore died. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Thu Mar 6 17:11:01 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 17:11:01 -0000 Subject: Did I Get a Girl for You! (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53295 Continuing in a Sondheim vein .. Did I Get a Girl for You! (GoF, Chap. 1) To the tune of Have I Got a Girl for You from Sondheim's Company Dedicated to Amy Z THE SCENE: The Riddle House, as WORMTAIL babysits the grotesque homunculus VOLDEMORT VOLDEMORT: Wormtail, I need somebody with brains, somebody whose loyalty has never wavered, and you, unfortunately, fulfill neither requirement WORMTAIL: I found you. I was the one who found you. I brought you Bertha Jorkins .. WORMTAIL: (music, quoting what he said when he first produced Bertha) "Did I get a girl for you! Wait till you grill her! Did I get a girl for you, Lord! I've scored! Dumb! With the Department of Sports and of Games She knows of Barty and she will name names She's in Albania on a sojourn Open her mind up, there's so much to learn!" VOLDEMORT: Did you get a girl for me! Too bad I killed her! Did you get a girl for me, Worm! Confirmed! Smart! A stroke of genius unlikely at best Your magical skills have seldom impressed Credit I grant you whenever it's due: Positive feedback from ol' You-Know-Who! Have I got a task for you! Wait for it, Peter! Have I got a task for you, son! What fun! Pete! For this most wizards would their right hand give! The honor of making the Dark Lord re-live! And there's no spoiling my big surprise Harry will soon meet my noose, then he'll meet his demise WORMTAIL (spoken): It could be done without Harry Potter, My Lord .. (music) Whaddya want? Some blood with the bone and the flesh? A body to resume your Dark wars? Whaddya want? To be resurrected afresh? Then whaddya wanna get Harry for? Whaddya want? A volunteer willing to go? Supplying you with victims galore? Whaddya want? There's surely no shortage of foes! Then whaddya wanna get Harry for? Whaddya wanna get Harry for? Whaddya wanna get Harry for? Whaddya wanna get Harry for? (WORMTAIL'S voice gradually fades under VOLDEMORT'S withering glare) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (have you seen the 2.28.03 update?) From kkearney at students.miami.edu Thu Mar 6 17:41:37 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 17:41:37 -0000 Subject: Not thorough, JKR? (WAS: Re: Could the Spectators See the Inside of the Maze?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53296 Finwitch wrote: > I think it's rather obvious that the spectators did NOT see to the > lake nor the maze. Otherwise, why would Dumbledore had needed to > discuss with Queen of the Merpeople or why would they have needed to > shoot up sparks for help if they were being watched in the maze? > > No, the spectators didn't see the champions during the tasks (except > for fake!Moody, thanks to the magical eye). > > Of course, we readers are watching Harry, so *we* know what happened > during the tasks. The spectators probably had something else for > entertainment? While I agree that the spectators could not see anything during the Second Task, I still think they could see into the maze. Perhaps the sparks were simply a way of verifying that a champion had truly admitted defeat. It would prevent a teacher from intervening too soon. -Corinth From misstresskathy at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 12:36:42 2003 From: misstresskathy at yahoo.com (misstresskathy) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 12:36:42 -0000 Subject: Underage Magic at the Weasley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53297 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "harrydraco42" wrote: > Perhaps in wizarding households like the Weasley's and the Malfoy's, > there is too much "everyday" magic for the underage magic that Fred > and George do to be detected. Also, children growing up in a > wizarding household must know some basic magic, if that is the way > things are done in their life. > > Makes sense, no? > > Colleen Sullivan > > "Oh, shut up, Weatherby" I agree. Plus Fred and George inventing things like canary creams, etc. Wouldn't they need to use magic to do that? Or would this perhaps fall under Professor Snape's potion classes? Wouldn't they get in trouble for underage magic? Or because they live in a Witch household its not as big a deal as where Harry lived with Muggles? Sorry so many questions but just curious. Kathy From groml at cards.lanck.net Thu Mar 6 16:55:31 2003 From: groml at cards.lanck.net (Maria Gromova) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 19:55:31 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] On Blaise Zabini's name Message-ID: <042601c2e401$350649e0$9842983e@rcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 53298 .>Carola wrote: >From my Arthurian readings, I happened to find that there is a >character called Blaise; he is Merlin's preceptor, friend and >chronicler; it is to be found in "Merlin's History" and >the Vulgata. > >So, this is a magic connection for the name and another proof to try >to establish this student belongs to male gender. Yes, I know this connection also. I agree with you and I think it is also proof that this student is a Light wizard. I am one of those who think that Blaise is one of those non-Dark Slytherins that must surely exist, or they won't keep such a House in the school. Maria. > > > >> > From DRTruman02 at cs.com Thu Mar 6 17:53:37 2003 From: DRTruman02 at cs.com (drtruman) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 17:53:37 -0000 Subject: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53299 Longtime lurker, first-time poster. Please, be kind, esp. if this has been discussed before and I missed it! I have always wondered exactly what happens in PoA to allow Harry (and Hermione and Sirius) to escape from the dementors after the Shrieking Shack episode. As I see it, there are two possibilities: 1) Harry tries to conjure up a Patronus, but fails; he then sees somebody on the far bank -- who he thinks is his dad -- and also sees the "stag Patronus" coming to rescue him. When he goes back later via the Time-Turner, he realizes (from his perspective on the far bank) that it wasn't his father there, it was HIM, and he conjures up the powerful "stag Patronus" to save "his other self." 2) Harry's Patronus was more powerful than he originally thought, and while the Dementors initially fought through it, somehow it gathered steam and became the (ultimately effective) "stag Patronus." When he goes back later via Time-Turner, and conjures up the stag Patronus from the far bank, he is in effect doing "Patronus overkill," and conjures up the strong Patronus to be sure he will be saved again. This is easier for him because he knew he had already done it. The text (which I'll get to in a minute), seems more strongly to suggest option 1). However, it seems to me that in order to be able to go back later to conjure up a Patronus to save himself, somehow Harry needs to be saved -- by himself, by his father, by Dumbledore, by *someone* -- in the first place in order to survive to then come *back* via Time-Turner to do it later. The text, as is often the case with JKR, is ambiguous. In the initial contact with the dementors, there's this account: >By the feeble light of his formless Patronus, he saw a dementor >halt, very close to him. It couldn't walk through the cloud of >silver mist Harry had conjured. A dead, slimy hand slid out from >under the cloak. It made a gesture *as though to sweep the Patronus >aside.* [snip detail about the dementor beginning the Dementor's Kiss] >A paralyzing terror filled Harry so that he couldn't move or speak. >*His Patronus flickered and died.* PoA, US Hardcover, p. 384. Then, just as the dementor is beginning to apply the Dementor's Kiss to Harry, we get this: >And then, through the fog that was drowning him, he thought he saw a >silvery light growing brighter and brighter.... He felt himself fall >forward onto the grass.... [snip detail about the dementors scattering] >With every ounce of strength he could muster, Harry raised his head >a few inches and saw an animal amid the light, galloping away across >the lake.... Eyes blurred with sweat, Harry tried to make out what >it was.... It was as bright as a unicorn.... Fighting to stay >conscious, Harry watched it canter to a halt as it reached the >opposite shore. For a moment, Harry saw, by its brightness, somebody >welcoming it back ... raising his hand to pat it ... someone who >looked strangely familiar ... but it couldn't be ... >Harry didn't understand. He couldn't think anymore. He felt the last >of his strength leave him, and his head hit the ground as he >fainted. PoA, US Hardcover, 384-85 Then, when Hermione and Harry return via Time-Turner, there's this: >The lake was coming nearer and nearer, but there was no sign of >anybody. On the opposite bank, he could see tiny glimmers of silver - >- his own attempts at a Patronus -- >There was a bush at the very edge of the water. Harry drew himself >behind it, peering desperately through the leaves. On the opposite >bank, *the glimmers of silver were suddenly extinguished.* A >terrified excitement shot through him -- any moment now -- >"Come on!" he muttered, staring about. "Where are you? Dad, come on - -" >But no one came. Harry raised his head to look at the circle of >dementors across the lake. One of them was lowering its hood. It was >time for the rescuer to appear -- but no one was coming to help this >time -- >And then it hit him -- he understood. He hadn't seen his father -- >*he had seen himself* -- [snip detail about Harry conjuring stag patronus, which scares off dementors] >It wasn't a unicorn, either. It was a stag. It was shining brightly >as the moon above.... It was coming back to him.... >It stopped on the bank. Its hooves made no mark on the soft ground >as it stared at Harry with its large, silver eyes. Slowly, it bowed >its antlered head. And Harry realized... >"Prongs," he whispered. >But as his trembling fingertips stretched towards the creature, it >vanished. [Hermione returns and Harry tells her what happened] >Hermione listened to what had just happened with her mouth open yet >again. >"Did anyone see you?" >"Yes, haven't you been listening? *I saw me but I thought I was my >dad!* It's okay!" >"Harry, I can't believe it.... You conjured up a Patronus that drove >away all those dementors! That's very, very advanced magic...." >"I knew I could do it this time," said Harry, "*because I'd already >done it*.... Does that make sense?" PoA, US Hardcover, 410-12 Finally, at the end of the book when Harry and Dumbledore are doing their usual post-mortem, there's this exchange after Harry says that he thought he'd seen his dad conjuring the Patronus: >"It was stupid, thinking it was him," he muttered. "I mean, I knew >he was dead." >"You think the dead we loved ever truly leave us? You think that we >don't recall them more clearly than ever in times of great trouble? >Your father is alive in you, Harry, and shows himself most plainly >when you have need of him. How else could you produce that >particular Patronus? Prongs rode again last night." >It took a moment for Harry to realize what Dumbledore had said. [snip detail not relevant to this issue] >And Dumbledore left the office, leaving Harry to his most confused >thoughts. PoA, US Hardcover, 427-28 Well, if Harry's thoughts are confused, so are mine. In the first excerpt, JKR seems to make it clear that Harry's Patronus has failed. But then, after he's conjured the stag Patronus to (apparently) save himself, Harry says he did it before. When? Did he do it before to escape from the dementors (as "Harry #1"), or did he do it before from the other bank of the lake (as "Harry #2")? Yikes! Then, when Dumbledore says "Prongs rode again last night," JKR says it took Harry a moment to realize what Dumbledore had said. But what is he saying here, exactly? Is he saying that what Harry saw across the lake was a vision of his father -- appearing to him in time of need -- and that he was thus inspired to come up with the strong Patronus? Or is he saying "this is why your Patronus is the shape it is" and not addressing the question of how Harry got out of the initial confrontation? The other question I have is that if he had done it before -- conjured a successful Patronus -- and he realized that he had done so, why go to the trouble of doing it again? Why not just watch as your "other self" conjures up a Patronus and escapes the Dementors, because you obviously know you're going to live through it? Is it because Harry is as confused about the nature of time-travel as I am, and he thinks (erroneously) that "Harry #2" conjured the patronus from the far bank, when what really happened was that "Harry #1" conjured one that was stronger than he thought? And therefore, he thinks he has to conjure another one in order to save himself again? I know this is a bit long (esp. for a first post), but it's been bugging me for a while, long before I discovered this list. I'm hoping that somebody out there can clear things up for me. Norm From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 18:13:02 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 18:13:02 -0000 Subject: A Portkey to more Portkey theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53300 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: > ladyofmisrule2000 wrote: > >... why Barty Crouch, Jr. turns the Triwizard Cup into a Portkey > as opposed to transforming something Harry would use on a daily > basis, like his toothbrush. > > > Steve aka bboy_mn wrote: > >This was just covered recently- > > >1.) Why not any object? Answer: If Portkeys were easy, everybody > >would be doing them. Why use Floo Powerder? Why use brooms? Why not > >just use portkeys? There must be a logical reason, and the most > >obvious logical reason is because portkeys are not that easy to do. > > > Voldemort, Barty Crouch Jr. or whomever picked that specific date, > that specific event and that trophy because not only did they want > to send Harry to Voldemort, but also to let the WW that he is back. > ... A warning, Voldemort is back so watch out! > > ... > > Greicy bboy_mn: Yes, a very dramatic gesture, and we all know how evil overlords love their drama. If Harry had touched his toothbrush and disappeared, it would have taken the better part of a day and perhaps even until the next day to determine that Harry truly had disappeared, and maybe a week for the whole school to find out, and maybe a month for the general wizard population to find out. Using the Tri-Wizard's Cup, stealing Harry out from under Dumbledore's nose in front of a thousand people at the very moment of Harry's triumph, now that is high drama. And if, as other people speculate, Voldemort planned to personally return to Hogwarts via that portkey and start cursing people right and left, that would make it even more dramatic, and would certainly be a dramatic demonstration of the Dark Lord;s power and reach. Drama, drama, drama.... that Voldemort is such a drama queen. just some thoughts. bboy_mn From jodel at aol.com Thu Mar 6 18:14:50 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 13:14:50 EST Subject: Ron is Dumbledore? Message-ID: <1ec.38d5211.2b98ea1a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53301 Nobody's rib continues; << eye color: I had thought that Ron's eyes were blue, but have not yet found any places to back this up. However, if Ron's eyes are brown, couldn't an older Dumbledore!Ron have done a spell to change his eye color - knowing that his eyes were the only part of him that still resembled his youth, and hoping this might be enough to keep others from figuring it out? Also, if pale blue eyes/red hair are a recessive genetic combo, should we note that Mr. Weasley having that same combo might mean it runs in their family? >> To be sure Ron could have transfigured his eyes blue, and Dumbledore was the Transfigurations teacher, so ye certainly would have been *able* to do it. But why should he bother, unless there really *is* some rarity related to blue eyes and magical ability? One pair of brown eyes among peoiple who usually have brown eyes is not likely to be a clue to anything. That blue eyes run in the Weasley Family is a given, considering that Arthur has been specifically stated as having them. But I am reasonably sure that Ron's were stated as brown at some point, since it somehow hit me as a disapointment when I read it that he did not have Arthur's blue eyes. So far as I can recall, the only Weasley whose eye color we do *not* know yet, is Bill. And all of the kids (except for Percy, whose eyes are hazel) seem to have brown eyes, so far. My own take on the subject is that it is far more likely that the Dumbledores are family connections of the Weasleys. Possibly Albus and Aberforth's mother was a Weasley great-grand-aunt of some degree, or the Arthur Weasleys are decendents of the embarassing Aberforth. But by all menas, carry on. The theory is a fun one, and likely to give us all something to chew on until Midsummer's Day. MacGonagall!Hermione, on the other hand, simply doesn't fly, imho. -JOdel From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Thu Mar 6 18:22:57 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 12:22:57 -0600 Subject: Dumbledore is Ron Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53302 Brinforest wrote about Dumbledore's possible death: Now, PLEASE, nobody get too excited and think this is the "everything" he will tell in OotP. Please. It's too early. (with heavy snipping before and after) I reply: I'm not certain I go for this idea; it's my whole TBAY-agnostic thing going, I guess. However, having THIS be the "everything" Dumbledore tells Harry in book five makes for a pretty good scene. Here's my version (with the first sentance or 2 provided by JKR Dumbledore lowered his hands and surveyed Harry through his half-moon glasses. "It is time," he said, "for me to tell you what I should have told you five years ago, Harry. Please sit down. I am going to tell you everything." Harry sat down, half-excited and half-bewildered. What was Dumbledore going to tell him? Why he trusted Snape? Why Voldemort wanted to kill him? How... "I am not truly Albus Dumbledore" Harry's mouth hung open, and he seemed to have lost control of his right hand, which was flopping around like a fish out of water. He was shocked. Finally, he managed to get some words out. "Not Albus Dumbledore?? Then what ... who ... how?" "I was not truly born 150 years ago. In truth, it was only about 15 years ago, now. I traveled 130 years back in time a few years from now in order to keep an eye on you. I must admit, it has been somewhat of a full-time job for the last five years." His eyes held the old, familiar twinkle. Harry was silent, trying to take all this in. Suddenly, a thought occurred to him. "Wait a second, Professor! If you were born 15 years ago, that means that *you're going to school here right now!!*" Looking pleased, Dumbledore leaned back in his chair. "Very good, Harry. Yes, at the moment my younger self is attending classes at Hogwarts. As a matter of fact, you are well acquainted with him." Harry's thoughts were a blur, trying to figure out who Dumbledore might be. A thought struck him with the force of a rogue bludger. "Professor Dumbledore, you aren't... you can't be... RON?!?!" Makes for an interesting conversation, don't it? Hobbit-guy, who just realized how odd it was that Harry calls Hermione a witch in CoS, and it's considered a compliment... From hp at plum.cream.org Thu Mar 6 18:26:59 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 18:26:59 +0000 Subject: foreshadowings in CoS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030306181551.0095d2e0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53303 The Admiring Skeptic wrote: >What's going on? The *only* answer that fits all this plot-working is >that it is expressly designed to work up to that last line where >Harry gets Dobby to promise not to save his life. For that line to >happen, you need someone to try to save your life and also to try to >kill you in the process. I agree with most of your reasoning, and indeed conclusions, except for your comments on Dobby's role (which was the major element of your post anyway). There's only one small fly in the ointment: Dobby does *NOT* make any promise not to save Harry ever again. Harry asks (or rather, tells) him to promise, but both in the book and the MTSNBN, Dobby's only reaction is a big smile. Whilst this could conceivably be considered acquiescence, it could just as likely be a very sly way of getting around making the promise. In any event, whilst not exactly "saving Harry's life", Dobby does do lots of things for Harry in GoF, including providing the way for him to accomplish the Second Task, which Harry may well consider to have been a life-saving move. In any case, whilst I agree that JKR *could* have found several ways to accomplish the various plot turns Dobby and his actions provide, she didn;t. Having Dobby provide them all is a way of getting from A to B to C narratively without *too* many side plots, of which there are too much in the book anyway, as you say. -- GulPlum AKA RIchard, who doesn't expect Polyjuice to be a major plot point again, but absolutely expects a return trip to Aragog's hollow. From gregorylynn at attbi.com Thu Mar 6 18:27:12 2003 From: gregorylynn at attbi.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 13:27:12 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron is Dumbledore? References: Message-ID: <005c01c2e40e$01e73580$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53304 Eric-- In PoA, it is sauid that it was Dumbledore's testimony that Sirius was the Potters' Secret Keeper that was the clincher that sent Sirius to Azkaban: "I myself gave evidence to the Ministry that Sirius had been the Potters' Secret Keeper." (PoA, US edition, pg. 392). Now, if Dumbledore really were Ron, he would've known from the start that Sirius was innocent and that Pettigrew was untrustworthy, especially because he was the one who let him sleep in his bed for years. I'm sure there's more if one searches. Moi: Well, others have pointed out the obvious explanation that Ron learned in that time period that he couldn't change things too much. I'd also point out two things. 1) Dumbledore says 'I myself gave evidence..." but doesn't say he believed the evidence he gave and I think we know that he has a certain disregard for the rules that would enable him to be morally confident in the rightness of lying under oath to save Harry's life, the world, or whatever it is he's trying to save. 2) A known murderer escapes, makes several threatening sorties into the school, and ends up being captured by a teacher you trust along with one student that is knocked out, and two students with a history of shenanigans who spout a story about the murderer being innocent and one of his long dead victims being the real killer. It's an absurd story isn't it? Dumbledore is the only one who didn't see Pettigrew who believes the story isn't he? Or perhaps McGonagall, but she fits in the theory as well or even if she isn't Hermione, we've seen her put absolutely faith in Dumbledore. ___________ Gregory Lynn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 18:40:02 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 18:40:02 -0000 Subject: Not thorough, JKR? Seeing the TASKS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53305 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "corinthum" wrote: > Finwitch wrote: > > > ... the spectators did NOT see to the lake .... Otherwise, why > would Dumbledore had needed to discuss with Queen of the Merpeople > > ... > > No, the spectators didn't see the champions during the tasks ... > > > > While I agree that the spectators could not see anything during the > Second Task, I still think they could see into the maze. Perhaps the > sparks were simply a way of verifying that a champion had truly > admitted defeat. It would prevent a teacher from intervening too > soon. > > -Corinth bboy_mn: The first and third tasks are easy to understand. The first is obvious, and the third, sitting in high stands would allow you to see into some parts of the maze, that's simple mechanics. So I think without a doubt there was at least some limited vision into the maze of the third task. Someone somewhere has to see at least something at sometime. For me it's not a question of IF but a question of how much and when. But the second task, while I can speculate as to possibilities, they are very much an extreme stretch of the imagination. One possibility is that there could have been magic bubbles floating over the surface of the water with the contestants names in them, and another bubble floating over the goal. Of course, as nice as that sounds, it still pretty weak and leaves some unanswered questions. A lot of holes in those bubbles so to speak. I'm more at a lost to explain the second task than the third. The third task maze was silent and dark from Harry's perspective. I have to assume that was to prevent people in the crowd from shouting to the contestants or giving them visual clues. But there is no reason for the audience to be in silence or to be unable to see. Admittedly, we have absolutely no account of events from any of the spectators, and until we do, we are just making blind guesses. Maybe the crowd did see what Viktor did to Cedric. Maybe they did hear Fleur scream. And it is just as possible that hey heard and saw but didn't understand. We'll never know until someone tells us. Additional thought, the maze is huge; way TOO huge. A Sphinx is not a pixie. You do not fit a full grown Sphinx or giant spider into a three foot wide hedge row. We have to have one of those magical size anomalies. I estimate the maze to be at least 4 times bigger than the Quidditch pitch; bigger on the inside than on the outside. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From hp at plum.cream.org Thu Mar 6 18:55:07 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 18:55:07 +0000 Subject: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030306182905.009618e0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53306 Norm wrote: >Well, if Harry's thoughts are confused, so are mine. In the first >excerpt, JKR seems to make it clear that Harry's Patronus has failed. >But then, after he's conjured the stag Patronus to (apparently) save >himself, Harry says he did it before. When? Did he do it before to >escape from the dementors (as "Harry #1"), or did he do it before >from the other bank of the lake (as "Harry #2")? Yikes! Harry1 tried to cast a Patronus. It was weak partially because he couldn't find a happy enough thought which would give it power. Another reason it was weak was because of Harry's usual lack of confidence in his own abilities. Harry1 sees Harry2 (assuming it's James) cast a very powerful Patronus. Later on, Harry2 realises (partially because of where he's standing) that it wasn't James but himself. His Patronus is powerful *mainly* because Harry knows he can do it. He doesn't *think* he can do it, he *KNOWS* he can do it, because when he was Harry1, he already saw himself (Harry2) do it! The thing is, Harry2 *is* Harry1, only a little more experienced and well-informed, and a little wiser. Casting a powerful Patronus was inevitable, because he'd seen it happen. By the time he has the conversation with Dumbledore, he's sorted out what was going on in his own head, so when he says that he'd "done it before", he had, quite literally, done it before. :-) Or, to quote Chief Miles O'Brien in a particular episode of Deep Space Nine in which he meets himself 5 hours into his future: "I hate temporal mechanics!" (well, both of them say it simultaneously). :-) >Then, when Dumbledore says "Prongs rode again last night," JKR says >it took Harry a moment to realize what Dumbledore had said. But what >is he saying here, exactly? Is he saying that what Harry saw across >the lake was a vision of his father -- appearing to him in time of >need -- and that he was thus inspired to come up with the strong >Patronus? Or is he saying "this is why your Patronus is the shape it >is" and not addressing the question of how Harry got out of the >initial confrontation? What Harry realises is simply that, as Dumbledore explains in his very next sentence, Dumbledore knows that Prongs was his dad's alias and his Animagus form. Bear in mind that up to that moment, he did not know that Sirius had told Dumbledore that MWPP had learned how to become Animagi. As to the form of Harry's Patronus, Dumbledore admits that Prongs' shape is "unusual". We can only speculate at this point as to what form for a Patronus would be considered "normal" (I expect this is a detail we will find out!), but I have a suspicion that in view of the word's etymological links to the Latin for "father", a "usual" Patronus form would be... one's father. The thing is, Prongs *is* Harry's father, and thus whilst unusual to those who know what form a Patronus *should* take, it's by no means unexpected if one knows that James was an Animagus. I hope that dispels some of your questions. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who adores JKR's way of skirting the issue of temporal paradoxes by not allowing them to happen. :-) From DRTruman02 at cs.com Thu Mar 6 19:00:27 2003 From: DRTruman02 at cs.com (drtruman) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 19:00:27 -0000 Subject: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030306182905.009618e0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53307 GulPlum wrote: > Harry1 tried to cast a Patronus. It was weak partially because he couldn't > find a happy enough thought which would give it power. Another reason it > was weak was because of Harry's usual lack of confidence in his own > abilities. Harry1 sees Harry2 (assuming it's James) cast a very powerful > Patronus. Later on, Harry2 realises (partially because of where he's > standing) that it wasn't James but himself. His Patronus is powerful > *mainly* because Harry knows he can do it. He doesn't *think* he can do it, > he *KNOWS* he can do it, because when he was Harry1, he already saw himself > (Harry2) do it! The thing is, Harry2 *is* Harry1, only a little more > experienced and well-informed, and a little wiser. Casting a powerful > Patronus was inevitable, because he'd seen it happen. > > By the time he has the conversation with Dumbledore, he's sorted out what > was going on in his own head, so when he says that he'd "done it before", > he had, quite literally, done it before. :-) > > I hope that dispels some of your questions. Actually, it still doesn't dispel my most basic question, which comes back to temporal displacement. Doesn't Harry1 *have* to cast a successful Patronus in order to be able to return later (as Harry2)? Irrespective of what Harry2 then does or doesn't do when he returns, if *something* hasn't otherwise saved Harry from the dementors, how can he come back from the future? Norm From psychomaverick at hotmail.com Thu Mar 6 07:31:35 2003 From: psychomaverick at hotmail.com (psychodudeneo) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 07:31:35 -0000 Subject: Morgana Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53308 I was just browsing through the Lexicon when I found this entry: "Morgana - The famous Witch Morgana, like Merlyn, figures into the King Arthur legend. According to the legend, Morgan le Fay, or Morgana, was the witch in the castle that Wart and Kay encountered with Robin Wood (Robin Hood for the unenlightened), Maid Marian, Little John, and the merry men to rescue Friar Tuck, the Dog Boy, and an old man named Wat." Pardon me, but that's not how Morgan le Fey figures into the Arthurian Legends at ALL. It's simply how she was represented in a single book: "The Sword in the Stone". Obviously, in the actual Athurian legends, Robin Hood and his Merry Men didn't appear either. In the classical legends, Morgan le Fey was Arthur's half-sister. She seduced Arthur and bore him an illegitaminte son, Sir Mordred. For years, Morgan and Mordred plotted on some way to get Mordred to actually be pronounced heir, but Arthur would not recognize him. Anyways, sorry if this sounds rude, or if you'd heard this before. It's just refering to a book like "The Sword in the Stone" as a definative source of Arthurian Legend (Morgan actually has autographed pictures of herself with famous modern celebrities in her room! Neon lamps!) seemed a bit . . . er, of an odd choice. "psychodudeneo" MOD NOTE: Any responses that deal with the Arthurian legends--which is most legitimate, who Morgan le Fey really was, etc.--need to be taken to HPfGU-OT Chatter at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/ From hp at plum.cream.org Thu Mar 6 19:32:25 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 19:32:25 +0000 Subject: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.20030306182905.009618e0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030306192836.00955a60@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53309 Norm wrote, in reply to my previous post: >Actually, it still doesn't dispel my most basic question, which comes >back to temporal displacement. Doesn't Harry1 *have* to cast a >successful Patronus in order to be able to return later (as Harry2)? >Irrespective of what Harry2 then does or doesn't do when he returns, >if *something* hasn't otherwise saved Harry from the dementors, how >can he come back from the future? Errr... Harry1 was saved by Harry2's Patronus. Harry1 was about to be overcome by the Dementors who'd found a way through the "mist" he'd created, whereupon Prongs, conjured by Harry2, comes to the rescue. There is no need for Harry1's Patronus to have any effect other than to delay the Dementors for long enough for Harry2 to realise what's going on. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who *thinks* he understands the question, but isn't quite sure... From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 19:54:36 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 19:54:36 -0000 Subject: Spectators and Security (WAS: Seeing the TASKS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53310 bboy_mn wrote: >So I think without a doubt there was at least some limited vision >into the maze of the third task. Now me: I'm not so sure it's that simple. As I noted in my first post on this issue yesterday, all of the indications are that it's quite dark inside the maze. And as I alluded to in my post, but as Aesob (Alex) stated more directly, there's no indication that anyone noticed Harry and Cedric's disappearance when they touched the Cup. They are all still seated in the stands when Harry returns with Cedric's body. And unlike Narnia, where Lewis makes it clear that time stands relatively still when individuals are port-keyed to other places, this doesn't appear to be so in JKR's world. For example, when Harry, Hermione and the Weasleys go to the Quidditch World Cup via portkey, a night passes before they return to the Burrow. So I really don't think there is a clear-cut answer to this particular puzzle. So, with that said, I was hoping to take this discussion down a different, but related path. Which is: Why, with Dumbledore "reading the signs" of Voldemort regaining power, and with his concern about Harry's safety during the Tournament, would two of the three tasks take place with little or no ability for Dumbledore to see what's going on? I'll focus on the second task, since I think it's clear that no one could see what was going on under the lake (since Dumbledore has to ask the chief merperson to explain what happened). I don't even think Fake!Moody's magical eye could see, since he tells Harry later that Harry took so long under the lake that Fake!Moody thought he had drowned. At a minimum, there are grindylows and a giant squid down there. In a worst case scenario, Voldemort could have managed to put all sorts of nasty traps down there in order to hurt Harry. And no one would know, since no one above the lake could see what was going on. The only way I can attempt to explain this is that perhaps the merpeople were charged with protecting the champions. But Harry doesn't run into them until he reaches their "village." I suppose it's possible that they're lurking in the shadows and he just doesn't see them. But even this theory breaks down when I remember how scared they were of Harry's wand. The first task makes the most sense in terms of both the spectators and the personal safety of the champions ? the spectators could see what was going on; McGonagall tells Harry that there are dragon keepers at the ready in case things got out of control. In the second task, there is nothing for the spectators to see (at least, until the champions emerged from the lake), and great risk to the champions due to the lack of visibility. Whether the spectators could see anything in the third task is debatable, but I think having blast-ended skrewts and giant spiders in the maze was extremely dangerous. It takes a simultaneous spell by both Harry and Cedric to bring down the giant spider. What if one or the other had met the spider alone? And clearly, the security does break down when Harry and Cedric touch the Cup and are transported to the graveyard without anyone knowing about it or being able to stop it. Perhaps giving each champion a dose of "ancient magic" would have been a good way of protecting them during the tasks, although it would have kept Harry and Cedric from traveling to the graveyard and ruined the ending of GoF ;) ~Phyllis From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 20:06:52 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 20:06:52 -0000 Subject: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030306192836.00955a60@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53311 Norm wrote: > Doesn't Harry1 *have* to cast a successful Patronus in order to be > able to return later (as Harry2)? Now me: I'll attempt to help. Harry2 doesn't "return later" to save Harry1. The events are happening simultaneously, even though we see one following the other. Once Harry and Hermione turn the time-turner back, they are re-living that time *during that time.* Which is why the time-turner is so dangerous - as Hermione says, a witch or wizard, in the surprise of seeing themselves, might kill their past or future self by mistake. ~Phyllis who thinks the way JKR constructed the time-turner is a demonstration of her brilliance From stix4141 at hotmail.com Thu Mar 6 20:14:30 2003 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 20:14:30 -0000 Subject: "Re: Ron is Dumbledore?" (& Hermione=McGonagall, Hagrid, eyes, & much more) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53312 Nobody's Rib wrote: > Things to keep an eye on: does Ron have a habit of looking at the > ceiling to avoid others' eyes? Me: Yes! In GoF (and I don't have my canon handy), during the Rift, the Gryffindors are in Potions and Snape is digging into Harry when Colin Creevy comes to fetch him for a Champions' photo-call (where we meet Rita Skeeter). Harry gets up to leave and notices that Ron is "staring determinedly at the ceiling" or something. I have to say, I'm pretty sure JKR won't go this route, but I love love love the Ron!Dumbledore idea and have adopted it as my new pet theory! Cheers! -stickbook From manawydan at ntlworld.com Thu Mar 6 20:31:57 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 20:31:57 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Evan Rosier References: <1046899531.15485.48845.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002c01c2e41f$6ec7c460$bb4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 53314 Steve wrote: >Rosier was the "patron devil of seduction," according to medieval >demonologists. I've always wondered how those medieval demonologists >found out all that stuff. >I suspect that the names of other Death Eaters have similar >connections as opposed to being anagrams. Interesting! When I saw the name, my immediate conclusion was no more than that JKR had included a Welsh character and been thoughtful enough to spell his name in the Welsh way - it's the Welsh spelling of the name which is usually rendered Rosser or Prosser. So If you're going to anagram him, you'd better use a Welsh anagram generator! Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From petra.delisser at postikaista.net Thu Mar 6 20:41:17 2003 From: petra.delisser at postikaista.net (brinforest) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 20:41:17 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore is Ron, oh yes he is In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53315 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gingerssnap1966" wrote: > One thing bothers me: Hermione went on and on about how they must > not be seen. Dumbledore and Ron see each other quite a bit. > Dumbledore also knows Molly and Arthur. Wouldn't they have noticed a > family resemblance? Especially if they've noticed it in Ron? > > Although.... it did strike me that when Ron was standing by the > Shreiking Shack in PoA whilst Invisible!Harry was teasing Malfoy and > company, Ron made the comment " 'very haunted up here, isn't it?' > with the air of one commenting on the weather." It sounds like > Dumbledore on several occasions when he knows what is going on and > someone else is losing their cool. He just smiles and makes a bland > comment betraying his amusement. > > AAAAAAAARGH! NO! The vortex! I'm being sucked into the vortex! > A warm welcome to you from a fellow vortex-dweller! :) I feel like I've almost said everything I can about pisk's wonderful theory, but can't help going on. Somebody *stop* me! :) About the being seen, I wanted to say that IMO the danger in being seen only applies to those who can be easily recognized. Dumbledore is 150 years old. With all due respect, a person that old looks old more than they look anything else. I'd say nobody we have actually met in the books so far has any way of knowing what Dumbledore looked like even in his forties or fifties, let alone his teens! Oh - oh - it just hit me!!! When did he come to teach at Hogwarts, I'd like to know? The *ghosts*! (incoherent muttering) Well, anyway, perhaps he was already on the old side when he started teaching at Hogwarts. When it comes to Molly and Arthur, I don't think this is the kind of thing that occurs to you. I assume they've known Dumbledore since they went to school themselves, so to them, he has always been there, and been very old. I think it would be very unlikely that they would look at their youngest son, the second closest thing they have to a *baby*, and think he looks amazingly like their dear old ancient headmaster, blue eyes or not! :) And the almost same thing goes for everyone else, Ron included. No matter what you say about Ron, I don't think his imagination is *that* wild. He would never ever in a million years just look at Dumbledore and suddenly shout: "Oh my gosh, that's me!" Now that we have your worries out of the way, hopefully :), let me thank you for the great bit of PoA - definitely has a ring to it, doesn't it? And let me share this one bit one more time. For some reason, this is what gets me the most - not because of any proof value whatsoever, oh no. It's just that when I first read this after being exposed to pisk's post, I got the Feeling: This. Is. Ron. (PS/SS Ch.1 p.12: Dumbledore has laid baby Harry gently on the Dursleys' doorstep and McGonagall and Hagrid have left.) Dumbledore turned and walked back down the street. On the corner he stopped and took out the silver Put-Outer. He clicked it once, and twelve balls of light sped back to their street lamps so that Privet Drive glowed suddenly orange and he could make out a tabby cat slinking around the corner at the other end of the street. He could just see the bundle of blankets on the step of number four. "Good luck, Harry," he murmured. He turned on his heel and with a swish of his cloak, he was gone. Brin From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Thu Mar 6 21:02:55 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 15:02:55 -0600 Subject: who conjures the prongs patronus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53316 drtruman writes "Well, if Harry's thoughts are confused, so are mine. In the first excerpt, JKR seems to make it clear that Harry's Patronus has failed. But then, after he's conjured the stag Patronus to (apparently) save himself, Harry says he did it before. When? Did he do it before to escape from the dementors (as "Harry #1"), or did he do it before from the other bank of the lake (as "Harry #2")? Yikes!" I think there are 2 possibilities for the "did it before" patronus. The first is that, if I remember right, Harry does actually conjure a powerful patronus at the 2nd Quidditch match (the one where Draco and henchmen try to scare him off his broom). Again, I don't have my book on me (more's the pity) but I seem to remember that this patronus is indeed cohesive and powerful; powerful enough to scare Draco out of his wits, at any rate. The other possibility is that, as Harry realizes that he HIMSELF saved his earlier self, he also realizes that, as he still exists, he must be able to conjure the proper patronus, to save himself. If he WASN'T able to conjure a good patronus, he wouldn't be around in order TO conjure the patronus. (wow, my head hurts!) Hobbit-guy, realizing why he hates time-travel. From oiledlamp at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 21:09:47 2003 From: oiledlamp at yahoo.com (Oiled Lamp) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 21:09:47 -0000 Subject: could JKR be making fun of us? / quartets & houses (WAS: Re: Clash of Heirs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53317 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nobodysrib " wrote: > Mostly, I can't think of anyone else among Harry's > classmates, Syltherin-sorted or not, that could fill the Slytherin > role for an HHR+1 foursome. (or maybe we'll have to wait for the > next book to see this possibility.) I think Neville Longbottom is a far more likely candidate than Draco for several reasons: 1) He's grouped with HRH on a consistent basis, both by plot, narrative, and the observations of other characters. The four of them arrive at Hogwarts in the same boat. The four of them receive the winning points for the House Cup at the end of PS. The four of them ride back and forth on the train together. Neville is obviously close friends with Hermione (she looks for his lost toad, he's the one who knows why Hermione isn't at the Halloween feast, she helps him in Potions, she recognizes his discomfort in Moody's class, he asks her to the Yule Ball, etc.) I know there are many other specific instances, but I can't reference the books right now to think of them. I have noticed that the four of them are portrayed together in class/common room/dorm/at meals probably more than any other non-Trio character in the books (even the twins). 2) When Harry hears the teachers talking about the Marauders in POA, he draws the parallel between Neville and Pettigrew. Although I think this parallel can be taken too far (I don't think Neville will betray Harry, for instance), this suggests that Harry himself recognizes the similarity in the relationship. 3) In Book Four JKR establishes a very strong relationship between Neville and Voldemort, one that is arguably just as strong as Harry and Voldemort's. Both of the boys were essentially orphaned by YKW and experienced a scarring, traumatic event surrounding his first downfall. I can't help but think Neville will play a big role in destroying Voldemort in the end, and that his outstanding conduct will earn him enough respect to be a teacher at Hogwarts (and head of Gryffindor House after McGonagall retires). After all, James' downfall came when he trusted his friend Peter...maybe Harry will be saved when Neville comes through for him the way Pettigrew failed to do for his father. Or maybe Neville will be the one who fights Pettigrew and wins. There are many satisfying ways that plot could play out (although I do believe it will be Ron, not Neville, who makes the Ultimate Sacrifice to bring Voldemort to a well-deserved end). In this vein, I would draw the following House correspondences for the modern foursome: Gryffindor: Ron Slytherin: Harry Ravenclaw: Hermione Hufflepuff: Neville The older foursome is a bit more difficult, but I think I can agree with: Gryffindor: James Slytherin: Peter Ravenclaw: Sirius Hufflepuff: Lupin ...while keeping in mind that Lupin seems to act the part of Hermione in book three (helping him with spells, providing him with The Answers, etc.), while Sirius is out doing the paw-work to get Harry out of danger, and is largely motivated by his loyalty to James, both of which are Hufflepuff traits. Hmmm. There IS some ambiguity there. I'd say that Draco and Snape are essentially the same character in their respective generations; they both provide opposition to the foursome without being necessarily evil. Their association with Slytherin serves to bring attention to their slimey-ness. JKR seems to make this distinction a lot in the books. She portrays some characters as Good (Dumbledore) and some as Evil (Voldemort), but also makes room for Something In Between, even giving the Foursome their own foibles, for instance, Hermione's bossiness and know-it- all-ness, Neville's awkwardness, Ron's discomfort over being poor, Harry's distrust, etc. Fudge and Bagman might very well end up being Evil, but so far they're portrayed as well-meaning, just like Snape, but with some tragic flaws, like Fudge's desire to stay in authority and Bagman's desire to make a quick buck. I think Draco is this sort of character, motivated to do bad things and provide trouble for the Trio, because of his father's influence (and probably lack of approval). I'm still hoping that Draco will be redeemed, however, much like Snape, and I don't believe that he'll ultimately want to follow in his father's footsteps (to be blunt, I don't think he's menacing enough to cut it with Voldemort, anyway). JKR's willingness to flesh out her characters like this and make them more like real people while still portraying their respective archetypes in the story is one thing I really admire about her writing style. Amber From lorischmidt1 at juno.com Thu Mar 6 21:20:59 2003 From: lorischmidt1 at juno.com (ladyofmisrule2000) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 21:20:59 -0000 Subject: Is Voldie really that dumb? (was A Portkey to more Portkey theory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53318 Lori wrote: > >Why does Barty Crouch, Jr. turns the Triwizard Cup into a > >Portkey as opposed to transforming something Harry would use on > >a daily basis, like his toothbrush?< < Greicy responded: > >Voldemort, Barty Crouch Jr. or whomever picked that specific > >date, that specific event and that trophy because not only did > >they want to send Harry to Voldemort, but also to let the WW that > >he is back...A warning, Voldemort is back so watch out!< < And Steve aka bboy_mn added: > >Yes, a very dramatic gesture, and we all know how evil overlords > >love their drama. > >Using the Tri-Wizard's Cup, stealing Harry out from under > >Dumbledore's nose in front of a thousand people at the very moment > >of Harry's triumph, now that is high drama. And if, as other > >people speculate, Voldemort planned to personally return to > >Hogwarts via that portkey and start cursing people right and left, > >that would make it even more dramatic, and would certainly be a > >dramatic demonstration of the Dark Lord's power and reach. > >Drama, drama, drama.... that Voldemort is such a drama queen.< < Lori (again): Thanks for your thoughts, but I still admit to being confused. If Voldemort just sends Harry's body back, how is the Wizarding World going to know it was Voldemort's doing and not just the Blast-Ended Skrewt or the sphinx? Doesn't there have to be a "claim of responsibility?" Is Voldemort going to write the Daily Prophet and let them know what he did? Or maybe the Avada Kedavara curse always leaves a mark (similar to Harry's lightening bolt scar maybe)? Crouch, I suppose, could send up the Dark Mark; but that would mean giving his real identity away. And maybe I'm not reading his character correctly, but I'm not sure I think Voldemort would use the Portkey to return to Hogwarts. Consider that at the time his plan was made, Voldie was 1) not sure if his Death Eaters would join him (he even says, "How many will be brave enough to return..." 2) his strength is doubtful (Wormtail has to carry him and Harry thinks Voldie looks "almost helpless") and 3) Dumbledore, the only wizard Voldemort feared, and hundreds of other witches and wizards are back at the school. Yes, Voldemort seems to love splashy gestures. He does seem arrogant. But to undertake this mission seems to be more than dramatic. It seems suicidal. If you make it through these ramblings, let me know if I've missed something or if there is a theory that explains these concerns better. Thanks again! Lori From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 21:58:55 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 21:58:55 -0000 Subject: Spectators and Security (WAS: Seeing the TASKS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53319 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > bboy_mn wrote: > > >So I think without a doubt there was at least some limited vision > >into the maze of the third task. > > Now me: (Phyllis) > > ... all of the indications are that it's quite dark > inside the maze. bboy_mn: And I addressed that issue by pointing out that dark and quiet inside the maze could simply have been to prevent the crowd's spontaneous reactions or intentional action from helping the contestants. But as you pointed out farther down in this post, and as I pointed out clearly in the post you are responding to, we will never know what people did or didn't see, or did or didn't do until someone in the book tells us what they saw. - - - - - > ..., there's no indication that anyone noticed Harry > and Cedric's disappearance when they touched the Cup. bboy_mn: Well, we are at a stalemate. There is no indication so far that people noticed Harry and Cedric disappear, but by the same token, I see no evidence indicating that they did not see it happen. - - - - - - > They are all still seated in the stands when Harry returns with > Cedric's body. bboy_mn: Not exactly. Common logic says that the Dumbledore and the teachers would keep people in their seat while they investigated. It would serve no purpose to have 1,000 (random number) people milling around and getting in the way. So just to keep things orderly, they would tell most people to stay in their seats. But the same logic also say that there is no reason to assume literally everyone was in their seat doing nothing and completely unaware that anything had happened. The first crowd reaction after Harry returns is, "A torrent of sound deafened and confised him; there were voices everywhere, footsteps, screams...". He is already laying on the ground at this point. Next, after Dumbledore rolled Harry over, "Harry felt the ground beneath his head reverberateing with their footsteps." Then, "He could see the stands rising above him, the shapes of people moving in them,...". So I would not argue that /most/ people where sitting in the stands, but Dumbledore got there pretty fast for someone who was sitting in the stands clueless. Fudge appears next, Dumbledore lifts Harry to his feet, and by that time the crowd is jostling around them. Again, I want to re-enforce that until someone in the book tells us, be can never really know what happened. - - - - - - - > ... I was hoping to take this discussion down a different, but > related path. > > Which is: Why, with Dumbledore "reading the signs" of Voldemort > regaining power, and with his concern about Harry's safety during > the Tournament, would two of the three tasks take place with little > or no ability for Dumbledore to see what's going on? > bboy_mn: Again, we can only fill in the gaps with imagination. Dumbledore was 'reading the signs' that Voldemort /seemed/ to be getting stronger. While very close, 'getting stronger' and 'regaining power' are not quite the same thing. Then he was getting stronger, now he is regaining power. But you still have a valid point. For one thing, the task had already been decided before the tournament begain. So inventing new tasks on the spur of the moment was probably not workable. Then the safety goal of the new tournament was to make sure no one got killed, not to make sure no one got injured. Dumbledore said at the beginning that the task would be difficult and very dangerous which is why no one under 17 was allowed to enter. So what would have happened to Harry if a grindylow got him? Well a grindylow /got/ Fleur, yet she somehow managed to get back OK. We could assume that once the grindylow has sufficiently disabled her to the point where she couldn't continue, that someone rescued her. If she was not rescued, then how did she get away from the grindylow? On the otherhand, if she freed herself, then why didn't she continue on searching for her sister? Unless I'm mistaken Fleur used the same 'bubble head' charm that Cedric did. My point in all this, is that there could be some safety precaution that we couldn't see. A very likely example was your suggestion of Merpeople lurking in the shadows. - - - - - - > But even this theory breaks down when I remember how scared they > were of Harry's wand. > bboy_mn: They were scared of Harry's wand because Harry was threatening them with it. I don't see that interferring with there potential attempts to rescue a contestant in trouble. - - - - - - > Whether the spectators could see anything in the third task is > debatable, but I think having blast-ended skrewts and giant spiders > in the maze was extremely dangerous. ... bboy_mn: Can't argue with that, the best I can do is imagine possible explanations. I certainly hope in the next book H/R/H discuss the tournament so that the rest of us can find out what the spectators saw. I don't think it's necessary for the book but it sure would be a load off my mind. - - - - - - - - > ... And clearly, the security does break down when Harry > and Cedric touch the Cup and are transported to the graveyard > without anyone knowing about it or being able to stop it. > > Perhaps giving each champion a dose of "ancient magic" would have > been a good way ... > > ~Phyllis bboy_mn: Well, I could argue a techincality on this point, but your main point is still valid. Knowing that some nefarious force was at work getting Harry into the tournament, Dubmledore could have taken a few extra precaution to safe guard him. That would be the logical thing to do, but it's much more dramatic when the hero is in constant peril. With so many of these things that we argue about, the ultimate answer is always, if they had done it the logical way there wouldn't have been a story, or at least, not as exciting a story. Finally, my opinion that people could see into the maze to a limited extent is just based on a reasonable analysis of the mechanics of it combined with a huge dose of imagination. Ultimately, we won't know until someone tells us. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 22:44:37 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 22:44:37 -0000 Subject: Spectators and Security (WAS: Seeing the TASKS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53320 I (Phyllis) wrote: > They are all still seated in the stands when Harry returns with > Cedric's body. and bboy_mn responded: > Not exactly. Common logic says that the Dumbledore and the teachers > would keep people in their seat while they investigated. It would > serve no purpose to have 1,000 (random number) people milling around > and getting in the way. So just to keep things orderly, they would > tell most people to stay in their seats. The first crowd > reaction after Harry returns is, "A torrent of sound deafened and > confused him; there were voices everywhere, footsteps, screams...". Me again: While it isn't crystal-clear, the text implies (to me, anyway) that the "torrent of sound" was the result of the crowd seeing Harry and Cedric's body hit the ground from out of thin air. When Harry first arrives, he keeps his eyes shut and waits "for someone to do something...something to happen." And then we hear about the "torrent of sound." So I took that to mean that the torrent of sound was caused by the sight of Harry's return, not as a result of seeing Harry and Cedric disappear in the first place. But, as you say, it's certainly open to debate. bboy_mn again: > They were scared of Harry's wand because Harry was threatening them > with it. I don't see that interfering with their potential attempts > to rescue a contestant in trouble. Now me: I didn't mean to imply that the merpeople wouldn't be able to help a contestant in trouble, because I think they would be able to do so. The point I was trying to make was that if Voldemort or one of his supporters was trying to hurt or kill Harry in the lake, the merpeople wouldn't be of much use since they are scared of wizards who threaten them with their wands. ~Phyllis From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 22:51:11 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 22:51:11 -0000 Subject: Choosing the Cup vs. a Toothbrush as Portkey (WAS: Is Voldie really that dumb?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53321 Lori wrote: >Why does Barty Crouch, Jr. turn the Triwizard Cup into a >Portkey as opposed to transforming something Harry would use on >a daily basis, like his toothbrush? Now me: There's a great essay on the Lexicon about this very question that you might find helpful to peruse. My own personal theory is that the Portkey needed to transport Harry to the graveyard when Voldemort was there and had the cauldron and the potion ready to go. If any old object Harry might touch (like a toothbrush) were to be transformed into a Portkey, Voldemort wouldn't have control over when Harry arrived at the graveyard. I see the transformation of the Cup into the Portkey as the ultimate in Voldemort micro-management. ~Phyllis on a posting spree today From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 22:56:31 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 22:56:31 -0000 Subject: Dobby/ bigotry & choices /Evil!Lily & Evil!Lupin (Was: foreshadowings in CoS) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030306181551.0095d2e0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53322 > The Admiring Skeptic wrote: > > > > What's going on [with Dobby]? The *only* answer that fits all this > plot-working is that it is expressly designed to work up to that > last line where Harry gets Dobby to promise not to save his life. > For that line to happen, you need someone to try to save your life > and also to try to kill you in the process. GulPlum AKA Richard wrote: > Dobby does *NOT* make any promise not to save Harry ever again. > Harry asks (or rather, tells) him to promise, but both in the book > and the MTSNBN, Dobby's only reaction is a big smile. Whilst this > could conceivably be considered acquiescence, it could just as > likely be a very sly way of getting around making the promise. My comment: We don't know much about house elf magic. Might Dobby somehow *know* that it will at some point be his job to save Harry? Pre-CoS, he overhears the Malfoy's plotting to destroy Harry and assumes that he is the only one who can save Harry's life. Only, by the end of CoS, he sees that he has not saved Harry's life (only endangered him) - this time is yet to come. He smiles to Harry's "don't save my life again" comment because he knows this is a promise he cannot make. I'm not a big Dobby fan and don't necessarily want him to be the saving grace in the "final battle," but I also don't imagine that Harry's life will only be in danger one more time over the next three years. And Dobby having a greater (life-saving) role ahead of him correlates well with HP themes of bigotry and choices. While house elves certainly are not as looked down upon as, say, werewolves, their liberties certainly go unrecognized, as shown with Hermione's efforts to Free the Slaves. (This subplot was one that I always felt would come back later, otherwise why waste book-space developing it when GoF was already so long. JKR cut out the Weasley cousin, leading me to believe that any subplots not needed for future stories would also have been cut.) What's the best way to show that house elves are capable of being their own masters? Have one save the day. What better way to make the WW question what other tragedies might have been averted had their own house elves had free will? And what better way for Dobby to show the other (obedient and happily enslaved) house elves that their lives are good for more than following orders, that they can play a more vital role in the WW? And afterall, HP is all about the underdog rising up and saving the day... This leads into the idea of choices. I believe Dumbledore said that it is the choices we make that are important (don't have the books with me - would love it if someone wants to look up this quote). But house elves aren't allowed to make choices for themselves... well, all but one, the free one, the odd duck named Dobby. (I guess there's also Winky, but thus far she is too much of a drunk to be of any good here.) Harry's choice to trick the Malfoys into freeing Dobby set forth a chain of events that will lead to Dobby saving Harry's life. So, in essense, Harry's choice led to Harry's life being saved. Great way to show the moral lesson of good karma. On a different topic, Dumbledore's comment about choices has left me wondering... The optimist would certainly be able to note all the ways that good people have made good choices, and theorize on how presumably evil people (Snape, Malfoys, etc.) may make (or have made) good choices. But the pessimist would add in that in order to fully develop this theme, there would also need to be a presumably good person making evil choices. And considering the equal importance of the present day story and the backstory, I would think that there needs to be at least two (past and present) situations of good people going bad, at least temporarily. (I don't count Pettigrew here since we didn't really know him before learning he went bad.) Some possibilities for this: Ron - who has been set up wonderfully to play the role of Judas Ginny - whose adoration of Harry is known by many (ahem, Valentines Day in CoS), which could be a great achilles heel for Voldemort/DEs to take advantage of. But we have also already seen her being tricked into working for evil. Sirius Black - but this would not be a huge shock to the WW, since he's already presumed evil. (And I just like him too much to find adequate evidence - or to even postulate w/o evidence.) Dumbledore - but if he works for evil, then we'd have to have a shock as large as Voldemort working for good to balance this off. yeah, right. Percy - who has shown his desire to climb the ladder There are lots of other possibilities (please throw in any additions to this list), but I'm going to skip ahead to my two favorite speculations: past presumed-good-person-turned-evil: Evil!Lily. (But, um, she saved Harry...) If Lily were one of Voldemort's spies, it would be one of the greatest shocks to Harry's life thus far (a good enough reason in itself for whoever to wait to tell him about this). Dumbledore mentioned that he had *many* spies, which leads me to believe that Voldemort would as well. And if you were Voldemort, would you be confidant that Pettigrew was capabale enough to be your only inner-circle infiltrant? Lily would be a perfect choice - by being married to another in the inner-circle, he gets two for the price of one. (Not that this means James was also working for V. Instead, Lily is in the position to get info from James and also to influence his decisions.) To curb Lily's evilness here, she may have gotten wind of Voldemort's plot to kill Harry and gone to him, offering *anything* if only he spares her boy. Give him information, play both sides, whatever he wants. Voldemort *agrees*, figuring that she is not only a strong ally, but that once he breaks his promise and kills the boy, Lily will see that it was all for the best and stay faithful to Voldemort. (After all, we know that Voldemort doesn't understand the power of family and love.) And we know the rest of the story. (There are many different ways for the Evil!Lily story to work - this is just one of them.) Present presumed-good-person-turned-evil: Evil!Lupin. (Some of this is connected to the backstory, but I put him in the 'present' category since he is involved with contemporary goings- on.) I know that Evil!Lupin has already been discussed a lot (I've loved going back and reading the old posts on this subject) so I'll try to only bring up that which I have not already read. Evil!Lupin would serve a function that Pettigrew (and Evil!Lily, for that matter) no longer can - Voldemort still needs to have an informer within the inner circle. And it's got to be someone who is already a member of it (and presumably was an informant in the past), since the inner circle would most definitely be leery of anyone new hoping aboard and already suspicious of them as being a spy. (After Black was thought to be the spy, turning out later to be Pettigrew, I just assume that they would be justifiably paranoid about informants.) I also wonder why it was that (in the past) they suspected Lupin in the first place (hence him not being made the secret keeper.) Did their suspicions of Lupin cause a rift between James and Lupin, causing Lupin to refer to them as only being friends "at Hogwarts"? Could it be that the gang were on the right track, but just didn't think any further that there might be two traitors? Or perhaps they were on the right track in suspecting Lupin, so Voldemort lures another of the inner circle onto his side, in the form of a rat. Pettigrew could have easily been set up as a patsy: If he works successfully as an informant (and also delivers the Potters to Voldemort) then bravo, but if, as Pettigrew was more likely to do, he messes up and cannot deliver, then (1) Lupin is still in place to deliver information, and (2) after having outed their (the gang's) suspected informant, they might feel confidant that there were no more informants - leaving Lupin that much more safe to deliver information to Voldemort. Pettigrew made the comment in the shrieking shack that Voldemort had been taking over *all over,* so what else was Pettigrew to do but join. If you go for both the Evil!Lupin and Evil!Lily ideas, can't you see Voldemort going to Pettigrew and saying, "Listen, we've already got Lily and Lupin - it's only a matter of time 'til all the rest are on my side or dead." One more thought on this Evil!Lupin thread - "It is the choices, Harry..." (paraphrase). Just as the WW automatically dislikes Lupin for his werewolf status, the readers tend to like him for the same reason. (Isn't it always easy to take sides with the person who is the target of bigotry and prejudice?) But to trust someone because they are the victim of prejudice is just as dangerous as not trusting someone for the same reason - because the evidence forming both these stances comes from the *prejudice* rather than the *person*, the *rumors* rather than the *facts*, and completely discounts the *choices* the person has made. It would be painful to learn this lesson by having Lupin turn out to be evil, but IMHO for JKR to fully examine what it means to look at the importance of people's choices, this (having popular-opinion- prejudice turning out, in one instance, to be accurate) is an area that must be covered, one way or another. - Nobody's Rib From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Thu Mar 6 23:10:02 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 15:10:02 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Not thorough, JKR? Seeing the TASKS References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53323 Bboy_mn: Additional thought, the maze is huge; way TOO huge. A Sphinx is not a pixie. You do not fit a full grown Sphinx or giant spider into a three foot wide hedge row. We have to have one of those magical size anomalies. I estimate the maze to be at least 4 times bigger than the Quidditch pitch; bigger on the inside than on the outside. Me: I'm not so sure this is a case of size anomaly... how big is a sphinx? We know the ones in Egypt are totally enormous... but what about the actual creature? I don't have FBaWtFT--is it mentioned in there? In www.pantheon.org (Encyclopedia Mythica), they recount the famous sphinx story and give background: In ancient Egypt, the Sphinx is a male statue of a lion with the head of a human, sometimes with wings. Most sphinxes however represent a king in his appearance as the sun god... ... The Greek Sphinx was a demon of death and destruction and bad luck. She was the offspring of Typhon and Echidna. It was a female creature, sometimes depicted as a winged lion with a feminine head, and sometimes as a female with the breast, paws and claws of a lion, a snake tail and bird wings. She sat on a high rock near Thebes and posed a riddle to all who passed. The riddle was: "What animal is that which in the morning goes on four feet, at noon on two, and in the evening upon three?" Those who could not solve the riddle were strangled by her. Finally Oedipus came along and he was the only who could answer that it was "Man, who in childhood creeps on hands and knees, in manhood walks erect, and in old age with the aid of a staff." The Sphinx was so mortified at the solving of her riddle that she cast herself down from the rock and perished. It sounds to me that a sphinx is just a bit bigger than your standard lion... -Danger Mouse [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From suzchiles at pobox.com Thu Mar 6 23:18:49 2003 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 15:18:49 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Not thorough, JKR? Seeing the TASKS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53324 Something else I was thinking. It's probably almost impossible to see into the maze, else FakeMoody would have seen with that eye of his, that Cedric was about to grasp the cup. My view is that if FakeMoody couldn't see what was going on, how could anyone else? Suzanne From artsylynda at aol.com Thu Mar 6 23:23:56 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:23:56 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] numbers at Hogwarts Message-ID: <90.3388fcbe.2b99328c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53325 Steve: > remember that there are only 3 other guys in Harry &Ron's year This brings up a point that has been bothering me. If there are only 5 boys and 3 girls in Griffendor in Harry and Ron's year, how in the world do they figure there are 1000 students at Hogwarts? Is this particular class quite small??? Or did most of them wind up in Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw? (There aren't that many in Slytherin in Harry and Ron's year, either -- Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Pansy and two other girls -- who have I forgotten??) Any ideas on this? Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 23:32:58 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 15:32:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Choosing the Cup vs. a Toothbrush as Portkey (WAS: Is Voldie really that dumb?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030306233258.50078.qmail@web21004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53326 erisedstraeh2002 wrote: Lori wrote: >Why does Barty Crouch, Jr. turn the Triwizard Cup into a >Portkey as opposed to transforming something Harry would use on >a daily basis, like his toothbrush? Phyllis wrote: My own personal theory is that the Portkey needed to transport Harry to the graveyard when Voldemort was there and had the cauldron and the potion ready to go. If any old object Harry might touch (like a toothbrush) were to be transformed into a Portkey, Voldemort wouldn't have control over when Harry arrived at the graveyard. I see the transformation of the Cup into the Portkey as the ultimate in Voldemort micro-management. Me: Hmm. I don't know about that because obviously he could have arranged for Harry to be transported at a pre-arranged time without all the fuddle of having him win the Contest first! Yes the timing would have to be right but it still would have been a whole lot easier then the plan that was executed. And this was way to important for Voldemort just to be doing a "In your face, take that Dumbledore" stunt. Either there is no rational reason (it just made a better story) or, has anybody considered that a PortKey may not usually work at Hogsworth? It may have been necessary to not only place it outside the castle itself but only under conditions where for the sake of the contest (in the maze) some of the normal magicakal protections had to be lifted. In other words, it is possible that ONLY during that contest could a Portkey have worked! Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aesob at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 22:29:22 2003 From: aesob at yahoo.com (Alex) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 22:29:22 -0000 Subject: Underage Magic at the Weasley's (and in general) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53327 >harrydraco42 said: > > Perhaps in wizarding households like the Weasley's and the Malfoy's, > > there is too much "everyday" magic for the underage magic that Fred > > and George do to be detected. Also, children growing up in a > > wizarding household must know some basic magic, if that is the way > > things are done in their life. to which misstresskathy said: > I agree. Plus Fred and George inventing things like canary creams, > etc. Wouldn't they need to use magic to do that? Or would this > perhaps fall under Professor Snape's potion classes? Wouldn't they > get in trouble for underage magic? Or because they live in a Witch > household its not as big a deal as where Harry lived with Muggles? Indeed, we see a lot of underage magic going on outside of school...Harry's encounter with the snake at the zoo, there's a child blowing up a slug in the campground in GoF, and how does Hermione know how to repair Harry's glasses on the train in SS/PS if she hasn't practiced magic ever before, and therefore broken the ban on underage magic? I think it's another continuity error by JKR (see my previous post, 53296). I believe the first we learn about this rule is at the end of SS/PS, when Harry is told he can't do any magic to keep Dudley in line (or am I wrong?). JKR had a reason for coming up with this "rule" ...to keep Harry miserable every summer. Why? It makes him want to go to Hogwarts every year. Perhaps there is another reason, or maybe it was just an arbitrary decision she made at the time and once it was published, she had to work it into canon. Fudge laughs it off after Harry escapes at the beginning of PoA, but he gets in trouble after Dobby flies the cake at the beginning of CoS, which are obvious contrdictions...which can perhaps be explained because Fudge is concerned more about the damage that Sirius could have done to him than a silly rule, but a contradiction is still a contradiction. Indeed, wouldn't underage wizards in non-muggle households and areas have to learn a little about magic before they start school at Hogwarts? Wizards seem as dependent on magic as we are on electricity and running water. We still don't know if there is a wizard primary educational system, but I think one has to exist. Don't these children have to do homework, though, and wouldn't this violate the edict? If the rule applies only to people like Harry, wouldn't it apply to Hermione? (But it doesn't seem to...) As far as the entire series goes, the large elements and the essential plotline holds together, but the fine details sometimes get messed up. We can discuss it and debate it as much as we want to, but JKR is god in her world and she decides what ultimately happens, even if it doesn't make sense or contradicts canon she's previously created, so I guess we just wait and see what happens! ~~aesob From DRTruman02 at cs.com Thu Mar 6 22:45:31 2003 From: DRTruman02 at cs.com (drtruman) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 22:45:31 -0000 Subject: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53328 > I (Norm) wrote: > > > Doesn't Harry1 *have* to cast a successful Patronus in order to be > > able to return later (as Harry2)? > > Now Phyllis: > > I'll attempt to help. Harry2 doesn't "return later" to save Harry1. > The events are happening simultaneously, even though we see one > following the other. Once Harry and Hermione turn the time-turner > back, they are re-living that time *during that time.* Which is why > the time-turner is so dangerous - as Hermione says, a witch or > wizard, in the surprise of seeing themselves, might kill their past > or future self by mistake. I follow the point about the dangerousness of seeing oneself again. I also follow that when they go back, they are re-living the earlier episode. What I'm still missing is this: doesn't Harry1 have to survive the dementor attack in order to *then* use the Time-Turner to alter that first version of events? Given that the principle of the Time-Turner is, after all, the ability to go back in time from a certain point in the future -- in this case, once they've made it back to Hogwarts -- don't they have to get to that point in order to then alter the way things happened before? And if the dementors have applied their kiss to Harry (and Hermione, to say nothing of Sirius), I somehow doubt H&H are going to be in a position to use the Time- Turner to then prevent the dementor's kiss from being applied. Put it another way: the dementors don't use the kiss, they use a good, old-fashioned, Muggle pistol. Bang bang, you're dead, Harry. How on earth (how in the Potter-verse?) can Harry, using the Time- Turner, alter this history if he is killed? I hope I am missing something that's completely obvious, because otherwise I don't get this. Norm From Trinity61us at aol.com Thu Mar 6 23:36:56 2003 From: Trinity61us at aol.com (Trinity61us at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:36:56 EST Subject: Voldemorts wand and Olivander Message-ID: <99.34397c6d.2b993598@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53329 I'm not sure in this has been discussed to death in an old thread (puter...stubborn) so bear with me please! I was just watching SS for the millionth time and something struck me, and I had to go look it up in canon. <"I remember every wand I've ever sold, Mr Potter. Every single wand . No: HPFGUIDX 53330 I have read on a few sites that this is a possibility. I can't find those pages right now. I'll have to look in my browser's history. Anyhow, several pages are pointing to this. A few examples: Harry & Hermione's hair are both "unruley", the way McGonagall speaks to Harry when she tells him Hermione has been petrified in COS to name 2 off the top of my head. It was stated on one of these pages (that I'm trying at the moment to find) that Lily & James possibly sent Hermione to live with the Grangers (maybe not muggles? Hermione seems to know too much about about the wizarding world to be muggleborn with muggle parents) to "spread out" their children. (I know this is not sounding legible, but it's been on my mind for awhile. I need to find these pages) I know it sounds *too* Star Wars to be possible, some of the things I have read just seems to plant that seed of possibility into my mind. I'm sorry if this has already been discussed, but I'm new to this board and I wasn't able to find a thread pertaining to this. http://www.harrypotterfacts.com/_columns_martel.htm (Speculations,Serious insight) Part 5 *~*~*~*Sen*~*~*~* From trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no Fri Mar 7 00:15:37 2003 From: trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no (Trond Michelsen) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 01:15:37 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? In-Reply-To: ; from DRTruman02@cs.com on Thu, Mar 06, 2003 at 10:45:31PM -0000 References: Message-ID: <20030307011537.J27521@crusaders.no> No: HPFGUIDX 53331 On Thu, Mar 06, 2003 at 10:45:31PM -0000, drtruman wrote: > Put it another way: the dementors don't use the kiss, they use a > good, old-fashioned, Muggle pistol. Bang bang, you're dead, Harry. > How on earth (how in the Potter-verse?) can Harry, using the Time- > Turner, alter this history if he is killed? That's one of the things that make time-travel so confusing :) He could go back in time to prevent himself getting killed, because he was there to save his own life. It's a chicken and egg thing, but the point is that he DIDN'T alter history. There is only one time-line, and for a few hours, there were two Harry's, and future!Harry saved present!Harry's life. So, when present!Harry becomes future!Harry, he must save present!Harry, because that's what he did. > I hope I am missing something that's completely obvious, because > otherwise I don't get this. Finding the beginning of a circle is never easy, until you accept that it has no beginning. -- // Trond Michelsen \X/ mike at crusaders.no From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 00:35:01 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 16:35:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030307003501.62511.qmail@web21004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53332 drtruman wrote: Norm wrote: > > > Doesn't Harry1 *have* to cast a successful Patronus in order to be able to return later (as Harry2)? Me: Technically, yes he would have to. IF you look at time in the conventional frame. That is it is a series of moments one after another. Without surviving the attack he couldn't be alive to come back and save himself. BUT, modern Theoretical Astrophysisists though have a new interpretation of time as being essentially a physical dimension. So that, in fact all points of time are happening similtaneously and we simply exist at one point of this diminesion at any given time and travel through it. This is wonderful for any Religous scholars trying to justify an eternal God. As God would have had to live "Forever" simply to get to this point of time, He or She could never have reached this point of time under traditional concepts of time. If you have to live forever before creating the universe or blowing your nose, you would never reach that point in time where you would do it. But if all time happens along points of a dimension, then God simply has the advantage of existing along the entire dimension at once. (Eternity!) Well, getting back on track of the Harry Potter books, since this concept of time says that all times exist simultaneously, then it would NOT have been necessary for Harry to survive the Dementor's attack in order to travel back in time to save himself. Both the time he was attacked by Dementors and the time they traveled back in time actually happened at the same time as our concept of time is illusionary, but they happened at different parts of the physical dimension of time. Thank goodness for theoretical astrophysics! Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 00:52:36 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 00:52:36 -0000 Subject: Dobby/ bigotry & choices /Evil!Lily & Evil!Lupin (Was: foreshadowings in CoS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53333 Nobody's Rib wrote: This subplot was one that I always felt would come back later, otherwise why waste book-space developing it when GoF was already so long. JKR cut out the Weasley cousin, leading me to believe that any subplots not needed for future stories would also have been cut. I reply: It was my understanding that the reason the Weasleys' cousin was cut is because she created some kind of hole in the plot of which we can never be aware now that it is fixed. However, Rita Skeeter is supposed to fulfill the same narrative function, and although she was supposed to be a more minor character, was developed further. Nobody's rib wrote: What better way to make the WW question what other tragedies might have been averted had their own house elves had free will? And what better way for Dobby to show the other (obedient and happily enslaved) house elves that their lives are good for more than following orders, that they can play a more vital role in the WW? I reply: On this note, I'm convinced that the house elves will be offered, or will take their freedom by the end of the series. After all, there is at least one mention of the goblin rebellions in every book, so despite the distinction that Hermione draws between the two races, I still perceive that as foreshadowing. And the fact that house-elves have magic that makes wizards like Mr. Malfoy think twice is enough to indicate to me that there's going to be more that happens on this front. Nobody's rib wrote: I believe Dumbledore said that it is the choices we make that are important (don't have the books with me - would love it if someone wants to look up this quote). I reply: He makes several comments on this throughout the books. Here are a few: "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." (CoS, US paperback, Ch.18, 333) "You fail to recognize that it matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be! Your dementor has just destroyed the last remaining member of a pure-blood family as old as any ? and see what that man chose to make of his life!" (GoF, US hardcover, Ch.36, 708) "Remember Cedric. Remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy who was good, and kind, and brave, because he strayed across the path of Lord Voldemort. Remember Cedric Diggory." (GoF, US hardcover, Ch.37, 724) That last one gets me every time - poor Cedric. -Tom From urbana at charter.net Fri Mar 7 01:01:52 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 01:01:52 -0000 Subject: The Gryffindor Quidditch Team In-Reply-To: <000401c2e399$dce39900$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53334 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Gregory Lynn" wrote: > Who decides who will be quidditch captain? I assume the heads of >the houses. If I were McGonagall, I'd probably make Harry captain >thinking it might keep him out of trouble a bit. If in their sixth >year, the team is Harry (5 years experience), the new keeper (1 year >experience) and a whole bunch of new players, I don't see how Harry >isn't the new captain. Fred & George are only 2 years ahead of Harry, right? So they will be 7th years. We know Oliver Wood graduated at the end of Harry's 3rd year, and the Quiddith season was cancelled in Harry's 4th year due to the Triwizard Tournament taking up so much of people's energy at Hogwarts. But presumably Fred and George will be back for their final year of eligibility. Could they possibly be co-captains? I don't see why not. >>>I think that's a bad thing as I don't think he's going to have time to be captain which would likely mean that he wouldn't be on the team at all. But then, maybe I'm overreacting.<<< Even if Harry doesn't have time to be team captain (what with getting ready for his OWLs and possibly saving the WW from more LV attacks), I hope he continues to play Quidditch in 5th year. He's a remarkable Seeker so I don't see why he wouldn't be Seeker again. (Yes Steve, I know you have Harry pegged as a new Beater but I just can't see it:-) Anne U (wondering if Malfoy will be captain of the Slytherin team...) From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Mar 7 01:01:12 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 17:01:12 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] could JKR be making fun of us? / quartets & houses (WAS: Re: Clash of Heirs) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <128181723812.20030306170112@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53335 Hi, Thursday, March 06, 2003, 1:09:47 PM, Oiled wrote: > Neville is obviously > close friends with Hermione (she looks for his lost toad, he's the > one who knows why Hermione isn't at the Halloween feast This last one is actually not happening in the book, just in the movie. PS/SS: ************* On their way down to the Great Hall for the Halloween feast, Harry and Ron overheard Parvati Patil telling her friend Lavender that Hermione was crying in the girls' bathroom and wanted to be left alone. ************* And unless you think Neville and Hermione already know each other before starting Hogwarts, I don't see her helping him find his toad as a sign of close friendship. To me it seems more like JKR showing us a facet of Hermione's and Neville's personalities. > , she helps > him in Potions, she recognizes his discomfort in Moody's class, he > asks her to the Yule Ball, etc.) I don't really see Neville and Hermione as very close friends. Friends, yes, but not extremely close, imo. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From urbana at charter.net Fri Mar 7 01:27:21 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 01:27:21 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore is Ron? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53336 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "brinforest" wrote: > I think that if Dumbledore is Ron, he has had plenty of time to > realise that things *must happen the way they always did*. If he > were to change something big like Sirius' prison sentence, not to > even mention Lily and James's death, who knows how that would change > the history we know happened. If he changed anything, he would > render himself clueless at the very least (when things subsequently > would not turn out the exact same way as they did when he was Ron), > or in the worst case, cancel out Ron's time-trip and thereby his > existence as Dumbledore altogether. Of course, the latter might very > well be impossible, as Melissa wrote. > Perhaps I am just dumb, but I can't wrap my brain around this "Dumbledore!Ron" theory at all. If I understand this theory correctly, here is the basic timeline: * 1980 Ron Weasley is born * 1996 or 1997 - Ron goes back in time and either purposely or accidentally goes back to circa 1840 and is born as (or assumes the identify of) Albus Dumbledore * 1840 - 1945 - Dumbledore grows up, goes to Hogwarts, does a bunch of stuff we're unsure of (some of it with Nicholas Flamel), and comes back to Hogwarts as a teacher by no later than the late 1930s * 1948 - Dumbledore defeats the dark wizard Grindelwald * 1980 - 1991 Dumbledore is still headmaster at Hogwarts, while Ron is growing up in the Weasley household (so Ron is split into two people of wildly different ages at the same time in different locations??) * c. late 1981 or early 1982 - MoM trials of Death Eaters following Voldemort's "demise" - Dumbledore gives testimony * 1981 - 1996/7 Dumbledore continues as Headmaster * 1991 ff. Ron Weasley enters Hogwarts * various times during the following few years - Ron and Dumbledore are in the same room together and Dumbledore SPEAKS to him!! (near end of CoS) Perhaps I'm not seeing something I should be able to see, but how can Ron and Dumbledore be in the same room at the same time and acknowledge each other's presence as a separate person if Ron IS Dumbledore and Dumbledore knows he used to be Ron??? Unless, of course, this works only because Ron doesn't know yet that he's going to become Dumbledore. OYYYYY. My head hurts. Anne U (who had no trouble following the time-travel in POA) From flamingstarchows at att.net Fri Mar 7 01:24:12 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 19:24:12 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemorts wand and Olivander References: <99.34397c6d.2b993598@aol.com> Message-ID: <001401c2e448$44c16b20$e214570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 53337 ----- Original Message ----- From: Trinity61us at aol.com It is common knoweledge that Harry's wand's brother gave him the scar, killed his parents, etc. So shouldn't Olivander have told someone that it was Tom Riddle's wand? It is obviously still Voldemort's wand because we see that in the "priori incantatum" in GoF. V could not have sent a lackey to go buy one , because "the wand chooses the wizard". Thoughts please? ----Me---- It is not common knowledge about the relationship between the two wands. The only ones who know are Mr. Olivander, Harry , and Dumbledore (because Olivander wrote him to let him know who purchased the second wand as soon as Harry left his shop). It says in "The Weighing of the Wands" in GoF that Harry had never shared this information with anyone. ~Cathy~ From hp at plum.cream.org Fri Mar 7 01:38:42 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 01:38:42 +0000 Subject: Voldemorts wand and Olivander In-Reply-To: <99.34397c6d.2b993598@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030307012644.00962820@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53338 Alex wrote: >It is common knoweledge that Harry's wand's brother gave him the scar, killed >his parents, etc. So shouldn't Olivander have told someone that it was Tom >Riddle's wand? It is obviously still Voldemort's wand because we see that in >the "priori incantatum" in GoF. V could not have sent a lackey to go buy >one, because "the wand chooses the wizard". I'm not quite sure what you're asking about, so I'll comment on things I *think* you're asking about. It's not widely known that Voldemort was Riddle (Dumbledore says so in CoS). However, the clear implication is that Ollivander knows. It's a safe bet that the upper echelons at the Ministry know as well. Ollivander told Dumbledore that Harry has the "twin wand" as soon as he bought it. As this isn't really of interest to anyone else, there's no reason for him to have told anyone else. Actually, please don't take this the wrong way, but what *is* your point? -- GulPlum AKA Richard, baffled From golden_faile at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 01:39:51 2003 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 17:39:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Gryffindor Quidditch Team In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030307013951.40922.qmail@web41115.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53339 Anne wrote: Even if Harry doesn't have time to be team captain (what with getting ready for his OWLs and possibly saving the WW from more LV attacks), I hope he continues to play Quidditch in 5th year. He's a remarkable Seeker so I don't see why he wouldn't be Seeker again. (Yes Steve, I know you have Harry pegged as a new Beater but I just can't see it:-) Someone wrote earlier that they think that there will be little time for Qudditch w/ Lord V's return. I agree. Not that there won't be some form of Quidditch in book 5, there's always something about Qudditch, I just fear that we won't get to see Harry play for awhile. Laila Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.2974023.4304644.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.2974023.4304644.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250; ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hp at plum.cream.org Fri Mar 7 02:00:57 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 02:00:57 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030307013944.00959d20@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53340 Norm wrote: >I follow the point about the dangerousness of seeing oneself again. >I also follow that when they go back, they are re-living the earlier >episode. What I'm still missing is this: doesn't Harry1 have to >survive the dementor attack in order to *then* use the Time-Turner to >alter that first version of events? Given that the principle of the >Time-Turner is, after all, the ability to go back in time from a >certain point in the future -- in this case, once they've made it >back to Hogwarts -- don't they have to get to that point in order to >then alter the way things happened before? Errr... I think I've finally cottoned on to where you're going wrong. They don't *alter* anything. As I said in a lengthy post in a similar thread a couple of weeks ago (Msg # 52351), it helps if you try to think of it not so much as time travel (the mechanism) but as bi-location (the effect). The fact is that everything that Harry2 and Hermione2 made happen, happened in the original timeline. Heck, I''m confusing myself now. There isn't an "original timeline". There is only *ONE* timeline, in which for three hours, there were two Harrys and two Hermiones. Harry1 and Hermione1 didn't know that their duplicates were skulking around - like the principled people they are, they abided by the rules and aren't seen. However, Harry2 *was* seen (by Harry1), and it was when Harry2 realised that what he'd seen earlier (as Harry1) was himself, and not his dad, that he knew that the timeline consisted of him showing himself to cast the Patronus. He therefore showed himself and cast the Patronus (as he explains to Hermione2 as soon as he's done it). If you want to think about it in terms of temporal (meta)physics, yes, there's a causal loop in place: Harry2 has to save Harry1 in order for Harry1 to survive and become Harry2 who saves Harry1... (and so on, ad infinitum). However, if you forget about the fact that time travel permitted all of this to happen and realise that there is only one, single timeline, in which one iteration of Harry saved another, you don't need to worry yourself with temporal (meta)physics. >Put it another way: the dementors don't use the kiss, they use a >good, old-fashioned, Muggle pistol. Bang bang, you're dead, Harry. >How on earth (how in the Potter-verse?) can Harry, using the Time- >Turner, alter this history if he is killed? He can't. It's as simple as that. He can't alter history, and of course, if he's dead, he can't go back in time anyway. >I hope I am missing something that's completely obvious, because >otherwise I don't get this. Well, it's obvious to *me*, but I'm not sure that I've explained it properly... If you take a look at the earlier message, I took a slightly different tack and that might be of assistance. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who's developing a headache :-) From lilpurplealdy at netscape.net Fri Mar 7 02:10:46 2003 From: lilpurplealdy at netscape.net (Juliet) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 02:10:46 -0000 Subject: Hearing Voices- NOT Imagined, With A Side Question About Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53341 Nobody's Rib(who I am quoting throughout the post): >>Here's what I'm (reluctantly) proposing: Harry's "worst experience" is not the actual living through witnessing his parents' death, but how he *imagines* that death to have taken place. ie He doesn't have a real/vivid memory of the death, but he does lie awake at night imagining how it all took place, and those thoughts are what haunt him.>> All right... *settles in with some V8 Splash* Time to utterly refute this theory. For one thing, if Harry were to spend so much time thinking and dwelling on their deaths, you'd think he'd recognize Voldemort murdering them the first time he hears it. But no, it takes two, and then some alone time to himself before Harry realizes it's his parents death that he is hearing. To look at the canon you posted... > 1) on the Quidditch field: > "Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry" > "Stand aside, you silly little girl... stand aside now..." > "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead -" > Numbing, swirling white mist was filling Harry's brain... What was > he doing? Why was he flying? 1) on the Quidditch field: > "Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry" > "Stand aside, you silly little girl... stand aside now..." > "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead -" > Numbing, swirling white mist was filling Harry's brain... What was > he doing? Why was he flying? He needed to help her but... She was > going to die... She was going to be murdered... He was falling > through the icy mist. > "Not Harry! Please... have mercy... have mercy..." > A shrill voice was laughing, the woman was screaming, and Harry > knew no more. - US Hardcover PoA, page 179 > "When they get near me, I can hear Voldemort murdering my mum," > Harry to Lupin, about the above incident. page 187 Now, yo can see that at first Harry didn't KNOW that was a voice- inside-his-head. Look at his reaction on the field.. "He needed to help her". He doesn't realize it's Lily(not until later, in the Hospital Wing), nor does he realize it on the train, because when he comes to one of the first questions he asks is "Who was screaming?" Harry going by his instict- that is, someone in trouble, better help! But he can't, as it's just a memory, one of the things that make this so sad, IMO. >>First of all, I find it difficult to believe that, of all the adults present at the Quidditch match, none have an experience in their past that is worse than Harry's.>> Perhaps I can help you with this difficulty. I don't think it's so much that Harry has the WORST experience of all the adults(I, myself, would be curious to know what Dumbledore thinks about when those Dementors get near him), but that he has the one that is the worst to bring up. This could be for two reasons: He has not resolved the death of his parents and thus this is the one that torments him most (thus being his "worst experience"), or the fact that it was a memory that was previously unaccessable to him makes it hard to drag out of him..? In any case, being around the Dementors and dragging that memory up physically drains Harry(whether or not this is because of a direct relation to the psychological torment...). We know this becasue he faints. Oh, and a knew thought has just jumped out at me! Maybe it's not that the Dementors bring up the *worst* memory of your life, but what will torment you the most. For Harry, it is his parent's murder. One of the worst things about the Dementors, IMO, is that they replay these horrible memories, and you can do nothing. Harry has to sit and listen to his parents being murdered, and he can do *nothing* to stop it from happening. And, by the looks of the effect it has on Harry, the Dementors have their desired effect. Also, for Hagrid, the things the Dementors bring up for him are regretful things, things that will torment him. His dad's death, the day he was expelled from Hogwarts, letting Norbert go..I mean, having to say goodbye to a pet(that you really haven't even had for all that long!), after living through Voldemort's Rein of Terror, wouldn't seem that bad, would it..? But it's something that would psychologically torment Hagrid. As would the circumstances of his expullsion, which, no doubt, would lead him to wonder if he *had* been the cause of that little girl's death. As for his Father's death...we don't know the cicrumstances, but wild speculation could lead one to wonder if it played out in a way that would make Hagrid blame himself(thus, another psychologically tormenting moment). >>After all, some of them must have had V- encounters... but there's no mention of anyone else having such an extreme reaction to the dementors.>> Granted, some of them probably did. But did the Dementors get so close to them as Harry? Harry was right over them(and there were a lot of them), IIRC, when he fainted. And, going with my theory above, they might have resolved most of the horrible memories in their past. Like Hermione or Ron- they have no horrible, deep, nasty secret(AFAWK, and sorry to any Torment!Ron/Hermione theories..) that would give them such torture, so all they do is feel horrible. Ginny, on the other hand, when she faces a Dementor, begins to shake uncontrollably. Why? Well, she had just gone through a terrible ordeal the year before. Thinking she was going mad, killing roosters, threatening the school. That's some undealt with psychological baggage right there, just the kind of a thing a Dementor would cause to be pulled up to torment her. >>I do know that my earliest memories do not go as far back as when I was one. >> And neither do Harry's- until he's near a Dementor. >>Might Harry's voices be a red herring, and the real issue (in relation to the voices) will not be the *what* of the scene, but instead Harry needing to overcome his fear of Voldemort (initially planted in him by knowledge of V killing his parents and then growing as he imagined this taking place.)>> I've never thought of Harry as having very much *fear* of Voldemort. He says the name, at first because he doesn't know any better(though, Hermione at first didn't know any better, but still she always calls him You-Know-Who. But, she did read up on Voldemort before coming to Hogwarts, so she knew all about him, and with her desperation to prove herself, she might've done so to blend in), and then later becuase he really doesn't fear him. When they are forced to think of their worst fears in the Boggart Lesson, Harry thinks of the Dementor. He does't think of having to hear his parent's death(b/c, he hasn't realized that's what it is yet), but of the Dementor's scabby, decaying hand. Which, as Lupin points out, means he only fears fear itself. Also, when Harry is told Sirius Black, supposedly Voldeort's Number Two Man and Biggest Supporter is coming after him, it really doesn't effect him. He's not all that scared of Voldie, and not scared of his supporters. Questions About Dementors: I have something to add, that's on-topic but kinda not...there seems to be semi-conflicting descriptions of what the Dementor's do. The most said one, is that they bring up the worst experiences of your life(which I have taken to mean the ones that have the worst effect on you). But Lupin says, when Harry admits that he thought of the Dementor's, not Voldemort, that Harry is wise, becuase he fears only fear itself. So, now Dementors bring out your worst fear's? I thought that was a Boggart's job! This has troubled me with trying to present a logical explination for Harry's reaction to the Dementor's. ~Aldrea, hoping no one has enough force to knock this theory flat, as it comforts her against the whole Harry Is Imagining It theory. From hp at plum.cream.org Fri Mar 7 02:43:26 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 02:43:26 +0000 Subject: The Gryffindor Quidditch Team In-Reply-To: References: <000401c2e399$dce39900$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030307020452.00971720@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53342 This isn't a reply to any particular post, but a more general comment. Unlike most participants in this thread, I don't see Harry as Quidditch Captain. Not because he won't have time because of exams (Wood managed fine...), but because a) he wouldn't want the job, because b) he'd be no good at it. Harry is not a natural leader in general terms. He's not been in a position of giving orders and expecting them to be obeyed without question. He might be nominal leader of the Trio, but that's only because he's the catalyst of their adventures. They're all equal members of their little clique and each has equal input into how they overcome whatever challenges they face. I've not done a numerical comparison, but off the top of my head, all of them have had the same opportunities to come up with "plans". They rarely discuss these plans, and the first idea usually prevails. If Harry decides to do something, he decides *for himself* and although he's happy for H&R to stay around (and is glad of their presence), he doesn't see himself as "leading" them into anything. Being in charge is not a position Harry relishes (largely as a result of his psychological make-up as a downtrodden child) and he's far happier to take orders. In fact, he takes orders very well, whether from his friends and teachers, or on the Quidditch pitch (unless they lead to something he sees as unfair). Furthermore, Harry knows next to nothing about Quidditch tactics. He knows something about being a Seeker, but even so, not a great deal of the finer points: it's not until the QWC that he understands the execution of the Wronski Feint. He doesn't have any kind of understanding of the general tactics of the game, or how to develop *team* tactics. Off the pitch, his idea of "team tactics" is basically "we'll go along with the first idea which occurs to us unless someone comes up with a better one very quickly". Harry therefore has neither the personality nor the skills to be a Quidditch team captain. Someone else, though, is obsessed with Quidditch and its tactics; he's shown himself to be no mean tactical player in a different domain (chess), and indeed had that talent acknowledged in front of the whole school in PS/SS: Ron. I don't know about the other players, but I certainly think that in symbolic terms at least, Ron as Keeper (and Captain) sounds pretty good... In narrative terms, though, I have a feeling that Quidditch is going to go off on a different track in the remaining books. We've already had all the permutations: Gryffindor lose a match, Gryffindor win a match; Harry catches the Snitch, Harry misses the Snitch; Gryffindor lose the House Cup, Gryffindor win the House Cup. We've already had the be-all and end-all of professional Quidditch, the World Cup, so what can possibly top that? At the same time, to borrow one of my favourite phrases over on the Movie list, a Potter book/movie without *some* Quidditch is like a James Bond movie without a car chase. So Quidditch *has* to make an appearance in all three remaining books. I've no idea how JKR has this element planned out, but I'm sure she has. I can see one variation which we've not had yet, which would tie into some of the elements of GoF: a Quidditch competition between the three great European wizarding schools. Krum was, I believe, in his last year at Durmstrang, so he wouldn't be playing. However, I'm sure that this wouldn't stop him participating in *some* capacity on Durmstrang's team (trainer/coach?). Fleur could also come back from Beauxbatons as the team cheerleader and raise a few more eyebrows. ;-) In any case, Hogwarts would be fielding a school-wide team, which would have several other narrative advantages, the main one of which would be to give us the opportunity to get to know some of the kids from the other Houses in a co-operative endeavour rather than the framework of the usual Hogwarts inter-House rivalry. It could perhaps, depending on the format of any such competition, also offer us the opportunity of visiting one (or both) of the other schools which again is ripe in developmental possibilities. Well, that takes care of one of the remaining three books. I have no ideas for Quidditch in the other two. :-) -- GulPlum AKA Richard, open to suggestions... From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 02:48:26 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 02:48:26 -0000 Subject: Spectators and Security In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53343 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > I (Phyllis) wrote: > > > They are all still seated in the stands when Harry returns with > > Cedric's body. > > and bboy_mn responded: > > ... It would serve no purpose to have 1,000 people milling around > > and getting in the way. So just to keep things orderly, they would > > tell most people to stay in their seats. The first crowd > > reaction ..., "A torrent of sound deafened and confused him; there > > were voices everywhere, footsteps, screams...". > > Me again: > > ... So I took that to mean that the torrent of sound was caused by > the sight of Harry's return, not as a result of seeing Harry and > Cedric disappear in the first place. But, as you say, it's certainly > open to debate. > bboy_mn now: Agreed, if people has already been out of their seats and milling around, when Harry reappear there certainly would have been substantial sound, but probably not a torrent. So what he hears, screams, etc... are the result of his return. I think my point is that it's reasonable to assume that those in charge kept most people in their seats just to maintain order. But there is nothing we can draw from at this time to tell us that they were all sitting there completely unaware that anything was going on, and that nobody was doing anything to find out what was going on. While I full admit I can't prove my general position about viewing the third task, it makes the most logical sense to me so I'm sticking to it. But again, what /proof/ there is lives only in my imagination; no evidence. > bboy_mn again: > > > They were scared of Harry's wand because Harry was threatening > > them with it. I don't see that interfering with their potential > > attempts to rescue a contestant in trouble. > > Now me: > > ... The point I was trying to make was that if Voldemort ... was > trying to hurt or kill Harry in the lake, the merpeople wouldn't > be of much use since they are scared of wizards who threaten them > with their wands. > > ~Phyllis bboy_mn: Good point, I should have really thought about that a little more. Voldemort and friends vs the Merpeople is not much of a fight. Nice talking to you. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 03:05:32 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 03:05:32 -0000 Subject: Not thorough, JKR? Seeing the TASKS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53344 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Suzanne Chiles" wrote: > Something else I was thinking. It's probably almost impossible to > see into the maze, else FakeMoody would have seen with that eye of > his, that Cedric was about to grasp the cup. My view is that if > FakeMoody couldn't see what was going on, how could anyone else? > > Suzanne bboy_mn: You didn't notice that as Cedric ran for the Cup a giant spider was running after Cedric, and we know that fake!Moody can control spiders with the imperious curse. The only reason the spider didn't get Cedric was because Harry, our high moral fiber hero, interferred, and the spider turned on him. There are a few small holes in this theory, but overal, fake!Moody could have very easily sent that last spider to stop Cedric thereby giving Harry a clear path to the cup. Lastly, what fake!Moody could see is independant of what the crowd could see. Moody is on the ground patroling the parimeter, and the crowds are high up in the stands; completely different perspectives. bboy_mn From hp at plum.cream.org Fri Mar 7 03:16:36 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 03:16:36 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore is Ron? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030307030221.0096e9b0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53345 I've not participated in this thread yet (I find the idea fascinating although utterly preposterous but have ZERO arguments to propose against it!) :-) Anne wrote: >Perhaps I am just dumb, but I can't wrap my brain around this >"Dumbledore!Ron" theory at all. If I understand this theory correctly, >here is the basic timeline: >* 1840 - 1945 - Dumbledore grows up, goes to Hogwarts, does a bunch >of stuff we're unsure of (some of it with Nicholas Flamel), and comes >back to Hogwarts as a teacher by no later than the late 1930s One correction: Ron goes back as a 17 year-old (-ish) and thus would have appeared in the mid-19th century as a 17 year-old. Assuming the identity of a (not otherwise existent?) Albus Dumbledore would probably not have been difficult as there was lots of social upheaval at the time. Perhaps he hooked up with Nicolas Flamel very quickly and came clean about who he is... >* 1980 - 1991 Dumbledore is still headmaster at Hogwarts, while Ron >is growing up in the Weasley household (so Ron is split into two >people of wildly different ages at the same time in different locations??) Yes. Why not? Harry and Hermione were in two places at the same time in PoA; there's no real reason (in terms of how we understand the T-T to work) why they would have had to be close to their original selves (of course, they needed to be close for narrative purposes, but that's a different matter). Considering one Ron has lived for 150 years or so, then of course he'd be vastly older. [OT for this particular subject: in PoA, H&H go back three hours at midnight; they re-live those three hours, so by the time they get to bed, it's 3am by their "body clocks": no wonder Harry is too tired to tell Ron anything! - strangely enough it's just gone 3am here] :-) >* various times during the following few years - Ron and Dumbledore >are in the same room together and Dumbledore SPEAKS to him!! (near >end of CoS) > >Perhaps I'm not seeing something I should be able to see, but how can >Ron and Dumbledore be in the same room at the same time and >acknowledge each other's presence as a separate person if Ron IS >Dumbledore and Dumbledore knows he used to be Ron??? Why not? Harry2 interacts (though admittedly not verbally) with Harry1 in PoA, and Harry1 assumes it's a different person. With ~150 years difference in age, Ron has no reason to think of Dumbledore as anything other than a respected 150 year-old wizard. >Unless, of course, this works only because Ron doesn't know yet that he's >going to become Dumbledore. Of course he doesn't. If he did, there'd be no fun in this whole theory. ;-) >OYYYYY. My head hurts. >Anne U -- GulPlum AKA Richard, handing Anne U a selection of painkillers across the ether for her to choose whichever takes her fancy, notices the time and decides to call it a night... From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 03:14:47 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 03:14:47 -0000 Subject: numbers at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <90.3388fcbe.2b99328c@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53346 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, artsylynda at a... wrote: > > Steve: > > remember that there are only 3 other guys in Harry &Ron's year > > This brings up a point that has been bothering me. If there are > only 5 boys and 3 girls in Griffendor in Harry and Ron's year, how > in the world do they figure there are 1000 students at Hogwarts? > Is this particular class quite small??? Or did most of them wind up > in Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw? (There aren't that many in Slytherin > in Harry and Ron's year, either -- Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Pansy and > two other girls -- who have I forgotten??) Any ideas on this? > > Lynda > * * * > "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA bboy_mn: This is one of the MOST UNSOLVABLE mysteries in this series. Countless man hours (person hours) have been spend trying to find a solution, and no one has done it yet. All we can do is make several assumptions that attempt not to solve but to offer some explaination; an explaination conjured from our imaginations. 1,000 students is not an absolute. It simply is intended to give us a general relative size of the school. 1,000 means (to me) somewhere between 600 and 1200. Why? Because that's what my imagination tells me. Without question, Harry year seem to have exceptionally small house sizes. Yes, we recently talked at length about the likelihood that Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs are very common, and Slytherins and Gryffindors are relatively rare. That helps reduce Harry class size while allowing the overall school to remain larger than his class size would indicate. Fact? No! This theory has as many holes in it as every other theory out there, but my imagination likes it. Current estimates that try hard to resolve as many issues as possible would probably place the school size at 400 to 600. Can I prove that? No, but I can imagine it. bboy_mn PS: This really is the ultimate unsolvable problem, but I think we are still open to new theories. From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Fri Mar 7 03:17:50 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 22:17:50 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Spectators and Security Message-ID: <188.1676a22d.2b99695e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53347 Sorry if this has already been said, but I was just thinking: Did anyone think to ask "Moody" if anything was wrong inside of the maze? I imagine everyone knew he would be able to see through it... ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 03:33:03 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 03:33:03 -0000 Subject: The Gryffindor Quidditch Team In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53348 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Anne" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Gregory Lynn" > wrote: > > ...edited... > > Even if Harry doesn't have time to be team captain , I hope he > continues to play Quidditch in 5th year. He's a remarkable > Seeker so I don't see why he wouldn't be Seeker again. (Yes Steve, I > know you have Harry pegged as a new Beater but I just can't see it:-) > > Anne U > (wondering if Malfoy will be captain of the Slytherin team...) bboy_mn: Actually, I agree with you. Harry loves being the Seeker and he is good at it, and he will do everything he can to remain Seeker. My statement that he would be a Beater was based on lack of available new players. Of the 4 boys in Harry dorm, I don't see any of them as beaters. Dean Thomas maybe; I'm pretty sure he is tall, but is he strong enough? Even Harry and Ron aren't that strong, but if not Harry and Ron as Beaters, then who? The story so far gives a limited number of people to choose from. Of the people we know now, I could see Colin Creevey being a Seeker. He's too small for anything else. I think 5th year, Ron will be Keeper, because that's the open position, but with the available people, I can't see him staying Keeper in years 6 and 7. So, I really want Harry to be the Seeker, I just don't see how he can when they form the new team. I also agree with you and others that Harry doesn't want to be Captain and wouldn't be particularly good at it. So, that leaves Ron in year 6 as Captain. Just a thought. bboy_mn From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 03:51:39 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 19:51:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dumbledore is Ron? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030307030221.0096e9b0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <20030307035139.16353.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53349 --- GulPlum wrote: > I've not participated in this thread yet (I find the idea fascinating > although utterly preposterous but have ZERO arguments to propose against > it!) :-) Hee! I've been in the same boat. I think it's a REALLY interesting and disturbingly compelling theory. I keep thinking someone's about to find something to completely disprove it, but no one HAS yet! > One correction: Ron goes back as a 17 year-old (-ish) and thus would > have > appeared in the mid-19th century as a 17 year-old. Assuming the identity > of > a (not otherwise existent?) Albus Dumbledore would probably not have > been > difficult as there was lots of social upheaval at the time. Perhaps he > hooked up with Nicolas Flamel very quickly and came clean about who he > is... I think the best take on just HOW Timetraveling!Ron becomes Dumbledore is that when he first arrives in the past, he somehow meets up with a young Albus Dumbledore, fresh out of Hogwarts. There's some kind of accident and Albus is killed. Ron starts freaking out, of course, because while he may not know all the rules of time travel, he durn well knows that DUMBLEDORE should NOT be dead!! This is going to ruin the entire course of the future! Ron Weasley just delivered the world to Grindelwald, Voldemort, or both. Horror, sob. :) But then...Ron notices that there's already a strong resemblance between the two of them, and with a little fixing here and there...RON could become Dumbledore! It's a radical idea, but...well, Ron already KNOWS what happened, so even though he's not the powerful wizard Dumbledore was, that might give him the edge to keep history on track like it should be. So Ron dons the violet robes and becomes Albus Dumbledore. Of course, by the time 130-odd years have passed and the date of his original departure is drawing near, Ron!Dumbledore has realized that he was always MEANT to go back and take over for the other Dumbledore. So after YoungRon gets transported back in time and Voldemort gets destroyed by a Harry driven nearly mad by grief, everyone's regrouped at the Weasley home to mourn Ron's death while everyone else in the world is celebrating Voldemort's demise. Dumbledore shows up, eyes twinkling, and asks why they're so upset. "Ron might have died a hero, but he still DIED!" "Ah, but he didn't die. Well, not yet." And Ron!Dumbledore explains the whole story... :) Ah, I'm liking this theory more and more. *g* Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From hp at plum.cream.org Fri Mar 7 04:13:17 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 04:13:17 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore is Ron? In-Reply-To: <20030307035139.16353.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4.2.0.58.20030307030221.0096e9b0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030307040301.0095dd90@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53350 Andrea wrote: >I think the best take on just HOW Timetraveling!Ron becomes Dumbledore is >that when he first arrives in the past, he somehow meets up with a young >Albus Dumbledore, fresh out of Hogwarts. There's some kind of accident >and Albus is killed. Ron starts freaking out, of course, because while he >may not know all the rules of time travel, he durn well knows that >DUMBLEDORE should NOT be dead!! This is going to ruin the entire course >of the future! Ron Weasley just delivered the world to Grindelwald, >Voldemort, or both. Horror, sob. :) I just had a thought, which makes the picture even better. What kills (the real) Dumbledore? Of course! Ron landing on him! Well, not literally, as wizards are made of stronger stuff than us Muggles, but it's Ron's arrival which *causes* the accident. Perhaps he appears in front of a bolting horse which tramples Albus? How would Ron feel about *that*!? Not only should Dumbledore not be dead, but it's Ron's own impetuousness which caused him to die! >Of course, by the time 130-odd years have passed and the date of his >original departure is drawing near, Ron!Dumbledore has realized that he >was always MEANT to go back and take over for the other Dumbledore. Not only that, but at the time he appears, he discovers that Albus Dumbledore wasn't a very good student and barely completed the Hogwarts curriculum; he had very little in the way of skill or talent and very poor prospects. In other words, had the real Albus gone on, he really wouldn't have been able to stand up to Voldemort. >So after YoungRon gets transported back in time and Voldemort gets >destroyed by a Harry driven nearly mad by grief, everyone's regrouped at >the Weasley home to mourn Ron's death while everyone else in the world is >celebrating Voldemort's demise. Dumbledore shows up, eyes twinkling, and >asks why they're so upset. "Ron might have died a hero, but he still >DIED!" "Ah, but he didn't die. Well, not yet." And Ron!Dumbledore >explains the whole >story... :) So, Ron's got the glory he saw represented in the Mirror of Erised, the whole series has a happy (yet sad) end, and everyone lived happily ever after. But do Ron and a 130 years younger Hermione still hook up? :-) >Ah, I'm liking this theory more and more. *g* Same here... Time for a proper acronym, I think, Any ideas, anyone? -- GulPlum AKA Richard, off to bed with a grin on his face From lilpurplealdy at netscape.net Fri Mar 7 04:27:31 2003 From: lilpurplealdy at netscape.net (Juliet) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 04:27:31 -0000 Subject: "Re: Ron is Dumbledore?" (& Hermione=McGonagall, Hagrid, eyes, & much more) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53351 Nobody's Rib: >>Once D!R is involved with situations, such as VWI trials that Eric mentioned, that Ron knew about, he is no longer operating purely off of D!R instincts, but instead off of future-knowledge instincts, and to change these aspects of the past would mean he would potentially change the future as well. >> *ahem* But, how does Ron know that Dumbledore had given evidence at the Trial? We never hear H/H telling Ron about the Time Traveling adventures, and for the other part of your theory to work(Ron acting on instict, as he doesn't know not to do so), they must not have. Rib: >>However, if Ron's eyes are brown, couldn't an older Dumbledore!Ron have done a spell to change his eye color - knowing that his eyes were the only part of him that still resembled his youth, and hoping this might be enough to keep others from figuring it out>> Well, I don't know about everyone else, but for me that's ruining every passage that mentions Dumbledore's eyes. He's supposed to have a blue, peircing gaze, and finding out that's all fake is like finding out he dies his hair white!(or, finding out The Hobbits in LotR were all wearing wigs! *cries* I loved their hair...) ~Aldrea, who would try poking more holes, but is very tired and it's very late... From lilpurplealdy at netscape.net Fri Mar 7 04:52:49 2003 From: lilpurplealdy at netscape.net (Juliet) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 04:52:49 -0000 Subject: Underage Magic at the Weasley's (and in general) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53352 Aesob: >>Harry's encounter with the snake at the zoo, there's a child blowing up a slug in the campground in GoF,and how does Hermione know how to repair Harry's glasses on the train in SS/PS if she hasn't practiced magic ever before, and therefore broken the ban on underage magic?>> Ah, I believe you are getting canon confused with the FTMNBN. Hermione *never* fixed Harry's glasses(atleast, not in that way). Harry's glasses were fixed by Mr. Weasly in CoS, after Harry had broken them by falling into Derbish and Banges. Also, your first point: My assumption has been, that since Harry was ingorant he was a Wizard, and since he didn't even know that what he was doing was Magic, he wasn't punished. Plus, if an Owl had suddenly swooped into the Zoo, and deposited Harry a letter, that would have required a lot of explanation. Once they've started studying magic, then they are restricted. I've often wondered if Harry would have been punished for losing control in PoA. That was the kind of magic a Wizard who never knew he was a Wizard would do. Aesob: >>Indeed, wouldn't underage wizards in non-muggle households and areas have to learn a little about magic before they start school at Hogwarts? >> Well, apparently they don't, b/c Harry obviously wasn't pre- informed. Unless that was all in that letter Dumbledore wrote to the Dursley's. Who knows...(Well, JKR, of course.. ;) Aesob: >>Don't these children have to do homework, though, and wouldn't this violate the edict?>> All of the summer homework we've learned of so far has been essays. ~Aldrea, who really should go to sleep, but really wants to get caught up with the group....she's still about a page behind! From lilpurplealdy at netscape.net Fri Mar 7 05:06:52 2003 From: lilpurplealdy at netscape.net (Juliet) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 05:06:52 -0000 Subject: The Gryffindor Quidditch Team In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030307020452.00971720@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53353 My thoughts on the Gryffindor Team: I've always had problems with this little developement. Because of two words that appeared only in one book, and that creates a problem, IMO: Flying. Lesson. They were really menionted in the first book and the first book only. Are they a mandated class, like Potions or Transfiguration? Also, we never even see the inside of an Astronomy class, but that's another topic. But, how would anyone wanting to join Quidditch improve? They'd have to learn how to fly first off, and that would take more than one lesson, I'd think. Also, it's been stated that first year's can't bring brooms, but I would take that to assume that other year's could..? Does that mean that maybe the Quidditch Pitch is open to people who want to practice(using their own brooms, or the schools)? But then, you'd think we'd have read about Ron and Harry having some fun there by now... Harry only had one lesson, because after that he was training for Quidditch. But there must be more to that, otherwise why would Madam Hooch be around so much..? Anways. Another thing- WHY doesn't Gryffindor have a reserve team, and if so why was it never mentioned before now? I think Wood only says that there's no backup *Seeker*, not that there's no back-up *team*. But all the same, why no reserve team? They obviously used to have one, as one of the Chasers came from there. But if they do, why is it not mentioned? Wood left 3rd year, you'd have thinking the Gryffindor Team would have atleast looked at finding a Keeper, and a reasonable place to look would be the reserve team. And if they had one, you'd think Ron would have made it by now. Also, on the subject of beaters and other players- There is more than one year than HHR's. A seventh year or two could become Beater when Gred and Forge leave. Then, by the time HHR is in Seventh year, there'll be a whole three or four years below them that, as of right now, we know nothing about. >>I can see one variation which we've not had yet, which would tie into some of the elements of GoF: a Quidditch competition between the three great European wizarding schools.>> Gulplum: That is an interesting *idea*, but I can't really see it happening. After the disaster of the Tri-Wizard Tournament, I'm not sure how keen any of the Headmasters/mistresses would be to suggesting a something simliar. If Hagrid and Olympe are still on good terms, then he could talk her into it. But who would be the knew Durmstrang Headmaster(Krum..?)? *shrugs* We'll only have to wait and see. ~Aldrea, going off to sleep now and wondering about Quidditch... From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 05:46:45 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 21:46:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dumbledore is Ron? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030307040301.0095dd90@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <20030307054645.66663.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53354 --- GulPlum wrote: > I just had a thought, which makes the picture even better. What kills > (the > real) Dumbledore? Of course! Ron landing on him! Well, not literally, as > wizards are made of stronger stuff than us Muggles, but it's Ron's > arrival > which *causes* the accident. Perhaps he appears in front of a bolting > horse > which tramples Albus? That's actually what I was thinking about. Ron going back in time somehow causes Dumbledore's death, adding to the guilt and him thinking he HAS to take over. > Not only that, but at the time he appears, he discovers that Albus > Dumbledore wasn't a very good student and barely completed the Hogwarts > curriculum; he had very little in the way of skill or talent and very > poor > prospects. In other words, had the real Albus gone on, he really > wouldn't > have been able to stand up to Voldemort. Hee. What an ironic twist! I love it. > Time for a proper acronym, I think, Any ideas, anyone? This is my first acronym, so be gentle, but how about REDHEAD ALWAYS (Ron Equals Dumbledore: Headmaster Evades Armageddon Disguised As Legendary Wizard And Yesterday's Savior)? Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Mar 7 05:46:59 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 05:46:59 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?It_Don=92t_Mean_a_Thang_If_It's_Lacking_in_BANG__(filk)?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53355 It Don't Mean a Thang If It's Lacking in BANG A BIG BANG filk http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/hypotheticalley.html#bigbang To the tune of It Don't Mean a Thing (If it Ain't Got That Swing) Dedicated to Cindy of the Big Bang Destroyers It don't mean a thang if it's lacking in Bang Lu-mos, lu-mos, lu-mos, lu-mos, Lu-mos, lu-mos, lu-mos, lu-mos Jo Rowling insists on decisive plot twists Lu-mos, lu-mos, lu-mos, lu-mos, Lu-mos, lu-mos, lu-mos, lu-mos If your theory is too dreary or sedate We'll pack it up and toss it in a crate Draco toward Mudbloods is what we think of Duds Lu-mos, lu-mos, lu-mos, lu-mos, Lu-mos, lu-mos, lu-mos, lu-mos - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Fri Mar 7 05:57:03 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 00:57:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore is Ron? In-Reply-To: <20030307035139.16353.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030307055703.2057.qmail@web20413.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53356 --- Andrea wrote: > --- GulPlum wrote: >I keep thinking > someone's about to find > something to completely disprove it, but no one HAS > yet! As you wish. Ron's favourite team is the Chudley Cannons. Do you ever think he would desert the Cannons. Would he ever uncross his fingers and stop hoping for the best? But in the forward of Quidditch Through the Ages, Dumbledore finishes off by wishing the best of luck to Puddlemere United! This, I think, should be conclusive that Ron is indeed not Dumbledore. ;-) Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 06:06:36 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 22:06:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dumbledore is Ron? In-Reply-To: <20030307055703.2057.qmail@web20413.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030307060636.69396.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53357 --- Eileen wrote: > As you wish. Ron's favourite team is the Chudley > Cannons. Do you ever think he would desert the > Cannons. Would he ever uncross his fingers and stop > hoping for the best? > > But in the forward of Quidditch Through the Ages, > Dumbledore finishes off by wishing the best of luck to > Puddlemere United! > > This, I think, should be conclusive that Ron is indeed > not Dumbledore. ;-) Pish posh. That's OBVIOUSLY Ron!Dumbledore trying to throw everyone off the scent. ;) You know Dumbledore's chambers are decorated in eye-blinding orange. ...Or maybe since Ron already has the Cannon's win-loss schedule memorized for the past three hundred years, he wants to cheer for a team that he DOESN'T know if they'll win or lose. *g* Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Fri Mar 7 06:18:22 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 01:18:22 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore is Ron? Message-ID: <18a.16e1b184.2b9993ae@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53358 In a message dated 3/7/2003 12:57:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, lucky_kari at yahoo.ca writes: > >I keep thinking > > someone's about to find > > something to completely disprove it, but no one HAS > > yet! What about the numerous times they are together in the same room? Unless, of course, Dumbledore or Ron or whoever has mastered the sacred Ninja Doppleganger technique ^^ Aaand...do you think Dumbledore would hire Lockhart or keep Snape if he were Ron? heh-if Dumbledore is Ron I imagine Mrs. Weasley is in for a bit of a shock ^_~ ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nplyon at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 06:56:10 2003 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (Nicole L.) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 22:56:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: {FILK} The Cup of Fire Message-ID: <20030307065610.99949.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53359 The Cup of Fire To the tune of The Cup of Life by Ricky Martin. Dedicated to Gail and Lilac, my super HP buddies! (Scene: The Halloween Feast in the Great Hall. Everyone has just finished eating and is eagerly awaiting the selection of the champions. Suddenly, an infectious beat fills the room and Cedric Diggory leaps on top of the Hufflepuff table and starts singing and shaking his hips. A chorus of Hufflepuff guysincluding Justin Finch-Fletchleystands up and acts as his chorus. The girls swoon while the guys gape.) So is your name in it? (Repeat 3 times) Look look look! (Look look look!) A name a name a name! (A name a name a name!) Look (look) look (look), look (look) look (look) Its a name, yeah! The cup of fire, it does the job Selects the champs, those who will try Theyll try the tests, cause theyre the best Lord will they try, hope they dont die Hogwarts School will compete, the other schools well beat Because that Beauxbatons, its champ wont be so strong Though Durmstrang does have Krum, in fact hes really dumb Well prove that the shiny cup is all for Hogwarts Its all for Hogwarts. (Yeah!) So is your name in it? Hogwarts, ho! A name a name a name! Look look look! A name a name a name! Hey, take a look! The cups shooting out a name! Look look look! A name a name a name! We cant wait for competition They all will fear our champion Our boy or girl will be the one To take the cup, look look look! So when you see the flame Youll know it chose a name Many will try and fail Yet one will still prevail The tasks will be quite hard Danger will be constant You may be the cups choice If your name is in it So is your name in it? So is your name in it? Watch us roll! A name a name a name! Look look look! A name a name a name! This is your chance To really be a star The cup of fire! A name a name a name! Maybe you could win it! So is your name in it? Maybe you could win it! So is your name in it? (Yeah!) The cup of fire, it does the job Selects the champs, those who will try Theyll try the tests, cause theyre the best Lord will they try, hope they dont die Hogwarts School will compete, the other schools well beat Because that Beauxbatons, its champ wont be so strong Though Durmstrang does have Krum, in fact hes really dumb Well prove that the shiny cup is all for Hogwarts Its all for Hogwarts! (Yeah!) Its all for Hogwarts! (Yeah!) So is your name in it? Hogwarts, ho! A name a name a name! Look look look! A name a name a name! This is your chance To really be a star The cup of fire! A name a name a name! All the girls! A name a name a name! All the guys! A name a name a name! Hey, take a look! The cups shooting out a name! Look look look! A name a name a name! A name a name (A name a name), a name a name (a name a name) A name a name (A name a name), a name a name a name A name a name (A name a name), a name a name (a name a name) A name a name (A name a name) a name a name a name Yeah! So is your name in it? Yeah! ~Nicole, who's never been so sick of the word "name" in her life. :) ===== ***************************************************************** "You haven't got a letter on yours," George observed. "I suppose she thinks you don't forget your name. But we're not stupid--we know we're called Gred and Forge." Chapter 12, "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" ***************************************************************** __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From basementgirl74 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 01:42:04 2003 From: basementgirl74 at yahoo.com (The Sparrow) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 17:42:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Percy the traitor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030307014204.34966.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53360 '*You* dont care about Ginny,' said Ron, whose ears where reddening now. '*Youre* just worried Im going to mess up your chances of being Head Boy.' 'Five points from Gryffindor!' Percy said tersely, fingering his prefect badge,'And I hope it teaches you a lesson! No more *detective work*, or Ill write to Mum!' Chamber of Secrets,chapter nine page 119. This quote and many before has tripped my brain into the theory that Percy is more than he seems, or at least deceptive. Note Percy doesn't jump to the defence that he *does* care about Ginny, just that Ron deserves points off for questioning him. I'm on two Harry Potter groups so I can't remember who I posted this theory to before but I think OotP will give us a Percy we never expected (or wanted)to see..... It remains interesting to me that the Weasleys play *such* an importance in Harry's world, too many co-incidental things happen as a result of Harry being close to the Weasleys, who are Minister of Magic workers,Marauder map holders,dragon handlers etc....This is another reason why I suspect Percy;he's close to Harry,he is able to see him on the holidays *when Dumbledore is not there to protect him*. Percy values his job a great deal, and Ron has said before (I don't know where the quote is)that he wouldn't be surprised if Percy sold them out if they broke the rules. Another quote at the start of PoA got me thinking too.. I can't give you verbatim (my housemates busy with my copy!)but when Harry catches up with the Weasleys in the Leaky Cauldron Percy approaches Harry with a tone which JKR describes *as though he'd never met him*. Perhaps Percy is not who he seems to be..... Sorry for the sloppy quote directions, SPARROW SPARROW __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From DRTruman02 at cs.com Fri Mar 7 03:09:01 2003 From: DRTruman02 at cs.com (drtruman) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 03:09:01 -0000 Subject: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030307013944.00959d20@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53361 GulPlum wrote: > > The fact is that everything that Harry2 and Hermione2 made happen, happened in the original timeline. Heck, I''m confusing myself now. There isn't an "original timeline". There is only *ONE* timeline, in which for three hours, there were two Harrys and two Hermiones. > > Harry1 and Hermione1 didn't know that their duplicates were skulking around - like the principled people they are, they abided by the rules and aren't seen. However, Harry2 *was* seen (by Harry1), and it was when Harry2 realised that what he'd seen earlier (as Harry1) was himself, and not his dad, that he knew that the timeline consisted of him showing himself to cast the Patronus. He therefore showed himself and cast the Patronus (as he explains to Hermione2 as soon as he's done it). > > If you want to think about it in terms of temporal (meta)physics, yes, there's a causal loop in place: Harry2 has to save Harry1 in order for Harry1 to survive and become Harry2 who saves Harry1... (and so on, ad infinitum). > > However, if you forget about the fact that time travel permitted all of this to happen and realise that there is only one, single timeline, in which one iteration of Harry saved another, you don't need to worry yourself with temporal (meta)physics. Thanks to all who have responded to my post. I think I have finally figured it out, in a way that makes sense to me, and the logic of which I accept. GulPlum gets credit (via his earlier post on this subject) for ultimately making the lightbulb go on over my head -- for which I thank him, and say I hope your headache is better! Just to make sure I'm getting it: I had been framing the issue in terms of: how does Harry1 survive in order to come back as Harry2 to be able to save Harry1. The real issue becomes: what happens if Harry2 *doesn't* save Harry1 (say, he just sits there waiting in vain for dear ol' Dad to show up and cast the Patronus)? Then, if I'm getting this right, *that's* what would alter the reality, and *both* Harrys would cease to exist, or perhaps only Harry2, and Harry1 would exist only as the shell of himself that would result from a successful Dementor's Kiss. Is that about right? DR Truman From a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 05:01:53 2003 From: a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com (a_rude_mechanical) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 05:01:53 -0000 Subject: Is Ron Dumbledore? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53362 I don't so much care for the Ron/Dumbledore theory, or time travel, or any of it, but as long as we're on the subject... If any of the Weasleys is Dumbledore, it's clearly Bill. He is tall, he is "cool," his long red hair is mentioned again and again (and compared to Dumbledore's), Rita Skeeter has published bad things about him (very similar to the Dumbledore situation in GoF), and his eyes are described as "twinkling." SO, if we MUST continue with this Weasley/Dumbldore time travel thing, let's consider Bill. (By the way, is Bill the eldest Weasley??) From gregorylynn at attbi.com Fri Mar 7 04:59:55 2003 From: gregorylynn at attbi.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 23:59:55 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore is Ron? References: <4.2.0.58.20030307030221.0096e9b0@plum.cream.org> <4.2.0.58.20030307040301.0095dd90@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <001301c2e466$68d54680$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53363 Just to interject a thought...who's to say there is/was a *real* Dumbledore that Ron replaced? Lord Voldemort is a creation of Tom Riddle. Couldn't Albus Dumbledore be a creation of Ron Weasley the same way? Think of it this way, a young wizard suddenly shows up on the scene and nobody knows who he is or where he came from. Since he's from the future he can tell people anything he wants and they have no way of disproving it. So either intentionally or not, Ron arrives in a time a hundred or so years before his natural time. He wants to stick around, he tracks down Nicholas Flamel, and says hello there I'm Albus Dumbledore and I've got a story you need to hear. What I wonder about this is the whole Grindelwald thing. It seems like it's a fact just pulled out of nowhere for no purpose. At least, to this point it does. But might there not be a larger purpose in there and if so what might it be? ___________ Gregory Lynn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gregorylynn at attbi.com Fri Mar 7 05:08:40 2003 From: gregorylynn at attbi.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 00:08:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Gryffindor Quidditch Team References: Message-ID: <001c01c2e467$9e3da640$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53364 Just to toss another thought into the arena, has anyone thought of the possibility that Krum might transfer to Hogwarts? I don't think we've seen any transfer students yet, but there's got to be that possibility right? Clearly Krum isn't particularly fond of Karkaroff and Durmstrang, and prefers Hogwarts even if you discount his interest in Hermione. I don't remember off hand if he was a 6th year or 7th. He might have a year of schooling left. So what if Krum transfers to Hogwarts and gets sorted into Gryffindor? Might he not be named Quidditch captain due to his international experience, and might he not make himself Seeker? Or might the dark influences, the Durmstrang influence, cause Krum to be sorted into Slytherin where Harry has to compete directly against him? Just some ide thoughts. ___________ Gregory Lynn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 07:59:44 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 07:59:44 -0000 Subject: The Rat Had Come Out To Play (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53365 This filk is a parody of "Molasses to Rum to Slaves", from the musical "1776". The original music can be found at this site: http://www.broadwaymidi.com/shows/1776.html It has recently come to my attention that the movie version of 1776 has been shown in many of our Middle School history classes in America. There are a significant number of Harry Potter fans among them. They have expressed their enjoyment of this-- how shall I put it-- "Joint Session" of the Second Continental Corgress and the Council of Wizards. It is to these children I dedicate this filk. The Rat Had Come Out To Play Scene: Sirius Black is in the Shrieking Shack, trying to explain to Harry, Ron and Hermione that he is innocent and why he has come to kill Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. "Wormtail". The Rat had come out to play. I had to make my escape. Twelve years too long To right that wrong; But the Rat had come out to play. Twelve years I rotted in prison, Filthy with dirt and with grime. It took a toll On my immortal soul, In Azkaban where I did hard time. Who cares if it wasn't my crime? Then Fudge came out to make his inspection. He praised the Dementors "wink wink". Then I spied my foe short one toe In that newspaper pic. The Rat had come out to play. 'Twas in Egypt his luck went astray. Welcome news to this Hound, In the "Prophet" it was found That the Rat had come out to play. Thank Merlin I'm an Animagus I turned into Padfoot that day. To Hogsmeade I ran Away from Azkaban. And now Wormtail would be my prey. My ex-friend, Peter Pettigrew, had come out to play. Harry, you musn't think my erstwhile friend Merely betrayed his trust as Secret-Keeper to your parents. Oh, no sir! He not only subverted the Fidelius Charm, he killed others in service to You-Know-Who: unsuspecting persons on the street. Explosions in the streets. Killed them in the streets. Destroyed them in the streets. At the pre-arranged moment he said the Curse, "Avada! Avada Khedavra!" Come! Listen to Peter. "Avada! Avada Khedavra!" He had become a Death Eater! Dead, all of them! Hear the count now: One wizard; Muggle Muggle Muggle. Thirteen were dead! One wizard; Muggle Muggle Muggle Muggle. Two kinds of people were destroyed, Both races: Non-Magical people; Wizarding people. One wizard; Muggle Muggle Muggle. Twelve Muggles dead! Gas main blow; Left his toe-- No one was to know! Muggle. Muggle. "Avada Khedavra!" The Rat had come out to play. Scurried to hide with the Weasleys, Safe from inquiring eyes. He was nobody's fool; He was in Hogwarts School. But Crookshanks was the best of all spies. I finally will honor my vow To James and to Lily! Shall we kill him now? (As we all know, Peter Pettigrew's life was spared by Harry's mercy. To what end will become clear in due time.) Haggridd From aesob at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 08:12:18 2003 From: aesob at yahoo.com (Alex) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 08:12:18 -0000 Subject: Underage Magic at the Weasley's (and in general) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53366 aesob (moi) stupidly wrote: >and how does Hermione know how to repair Harry's >glasses on the train in SS/PS if she hasn't practiced magic ever > before, and > therefore broken the ban on underage magic? Juliet wrote: > Ah, I believe you are getting canon confused with the FTMNBN. > Hermione *never* fixed Harry's glasses(atleast, not in that way). > Harry's glasses were fixed by Mr. Weasly in CoS, after Harry had > broken them by falling into Derbish and Banges. > I've often wondered if > Harry would have been punished for losing control in PoA. That was > the kind of magic a Wizard who never knew he was a Wizard would do. Yes, that particular example was a bad one (damn the movie for messing me up! j/k), but it still doesn't undermine the point I was trying to make, which is that the "Ban on Underage Magic" is a plot element that JKR created to prevent Harry from using magic on Dudley during summer vacation to keep him miserable and as a lead-in to CoS for what Dobby does, and it's otherwise been overlooked or abandoned because it's too restrictive to other story lines. JKR overlooks it in all the books, and it's really only a "Ban on Harry from doing Magic in front of Muggles or he _May_ get in Trouble". My reasons: 1. The ban is something that is only ever applied to Harry once (beginning of CoS), and it was used as a plot element to introduce us to how troublesome Dobby could be, as it's something Harry's not even guilty for. As Juliet points out above, in PoA, Harry is pardoned for blowing up Aunt Marge (when he actually is guilty) by none other than Fudge, the Minister of Magic! 2. The ban seems to be ignored in wizarding families and at wizarding places (which are still outside of Hogwarts!). As harrydraco42 and misstresskathy pointed out in previous posts, the Weasley twins must have been using magic to create their Canary Creams. The child in GoF blowing up a slug at the Quidditch World Cup is scolded by the mother, but no ministry official descends on them to squash the behavior. Harry sends up red and gold sparks in Ollivander's in SS/PS, and students practice magic on the Hogwarts Express (still before school!). 3. The ban is not exercised on the Weasleys twins when they feed Dudley the one ton toffee, nor is Harry in trouble when he causes Dudley to fall into the snake pit (even though this is before he knows he's a wizard, shouldn't there have been some ramifications if it's truly a "Ban?") I'm sure there are other minor incidences, but it's getting late, and another reason is that we haven't seen that much happening outside of school (as we only see from Harry's POV) . Maybe I don't have hard proof, but I stand by my idea that the ban on underage magic was a quickly conceived plot element that was too restrictive, so JKR's gone soft on it. Wizards old and young, especially in non-muggle areas rely so heavily on magic, the ban is an unfair burden for them, and JKR's realized this when she's started exploring new areas such as the Weasley's home and the Quidditch World Cup. That's why she's gotten lax with it. It's ok...all authors make mistakes, JKR admits that she has an outline, but much of it she makes up as she goes, and bravo, I wouldn't have it any other way...writing is a passion, not a science...anyway, what else would we debate if the stories were perfectly conceived? ~~aesob, going to bed to dream we'll get answers in book 5...and more questions, of course... From gingerssnap1966 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 09:15:47 2003 From: gingerssnap1966 at yahoo.com (gingerssnap1966) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 09:15:47 -0000 Subject: Underage Magic at the Weasley's (and in general) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53367 Aesob wrote: (big snip) The ban seems to be ignored in wizarding families and at > wizarding places (which are still outside of Hogwarts!). As > harrydraco42 and misstresskathy pointed out in previous posts, > the Weasley twins must have been using magic to create their > Canary Creams. The child in GoF blowing up a slug at the > Quidditch World Cup is scolded by the mother, but no ministry > official descends on them to squash the behavior. Harry sends > up red and gold sparks in Ollivander's in SS/PS, and students > practice magic on the Hogwarts Express (still before school!). (snip some more) > Wizards old and young, especially in non-muggle areas rely so > heavily on magic, the ban is an unfair burden for them, and > JKR's realized this when she's started exploring new areas such > as the Weasley's home and the Quidditch World Cup. > Me: You know, we never heard the exact wording of the notices that they were given out. In PS/SS it only says that notices were given out warning students not to use magic over the holidays. It may have been a long notice with all the "whys and wherefores" listed. Such as Magic shall not be used in front of Muggles or where Muggles are reasonably believed to frequent. No student shall use magic above their grade level and may only use experimental magic consistant with studies. Muggle born/raised students shall refrain from using magic in Muggle abodes........ I think you get the idea. There may also be a part about not using it for mischief, which would explain Fred's reaction. Perhaps there is an understanding in the WW about what is considered magic and what is not. Lumos at the QWC was really no different than turning on a flashlight would be for Muggles. Maybe that is so everyday that they don't even consider it. It would be like telling us not to use computers. We would understand it as only not to use this addictive little box, but we would still go out and drive our cars and use the timeclocks at work not thinking, "hey! this is a computer!" Just a few thoughts from one who likes everything to be neat and tidy in her mind, Ginger From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 09:34:31 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 09:34:31 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore is Ron? In-Reply-To: <18a.16e1b184.2b9993ae@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53368 Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; I have been following this thread closely, and to be honest, I am stumped pretty much. One one hand, I can see where so many think Ron is Dumbledore. Because only Harry and Ron know some of what Dumbledore seems to know (ie. what Ron saw in the mirror of Erised). But, on the other hand, there are times that Dumbledore should know things that Harry and Ron know of, and he had drawn a blank (ie. when Barty Crouch Jr/Moody talks about taking the Marauders map from Harry before Snape gets it). Ok, once more I do have a little twist to throw in here.But first, I want to make a couple points: 1)How many times is "time" talked about, watches, broken watches, clocks and time tuners. It seems that time is something that is most important to JKR and the HP books, at least to me. 2) In GoF(page 617, US), "Mrs Weasley was intrigued by the wamping willow, which had been planted after she left school, and reminisced at length about the gameskeeper before Hagrid, a man called Ogg." Now according to the Lexicon, Hagrid's timeline was: 1929, born. 1932, His mother, Fridwulfa abandoned his family. 1940, he starts Hogwarts. 1942, His father dies. 1943, He is falsely accused of opening the CoS, expelled and given the gameskeeper position. So, this means that Arthur and Molly go to Hogwarts, and *GRADUATES BEFORE* 1943. Exactly how old are the Weasleys? They would have had to be born no later than 1925, more likely around 1920 to 1923 seeing as how Molly does not talk about going to school with Hagrid (1943 - 18 years old when graduating = 1925). And I do not think someone would forget Hagrid once you meet him. What I have come up with is, two time lines going on at once. The Lexicon backs up what I am saying, sorta. When you look up Arthur or Molly Weasley, and look up when they went to Hogwarts, they say: "And here's why this question gets to me. There is one niggling little comment in GF that suggests to me that--brace yourself--there just might be TWO time lines going on here. Molly Weasley fondly recalls a man named Ogg being the groundskeeper when she went to Hogwarts. Now she's older than Sirius and Lupin, granted, but not so much older that she would have gone to Hogwarts before Hagrid and Tom Riddle, which was fifty years ago. After Hagrid was expelled, however, he was given the groundskeeper position. How does this Ogg fellow fit into the picture then?" So, if there are two time line going on, Dumbledore may be Ron, but at a much older age than he is in the 1990's when he, Ron, is going to school with Harry. In other words, Dumbledore might be Ron from the future, not Ron going back into the past. So, what do you think? Fred Waldrop From nithya_rachel at hotmail.com Fri Mar 7 13:06:06 2003 From: nithya_rachel at hotmail.com (errolowl) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 13:06:06 -0000 Subject: For & against REDHEAD ALWAYS (long)(Was: Dumbledore is Ron? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030307030221.0096e9b0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53369 Well, its surprising how fast a Harry! Back-to-the-future theory shape shifted into a fun Dumbledore!Ron theory. A brief recap before I start rambling. Piskmiffo brought up this version of Dumbledore!Ron in Message 53151, of Ron going back in time to save Harry and inadvertently going about 130 years too far back. He tries to find Dumbledore to help him correct things ? only to find that Dumbledore doesn't exist and that *he* is supposed to assume that role. This explains Dumbledore's knowledge of things yet to happen, his uncanny knack of knowing everything that's going on at least as far as Harry is concerned.The similarities in physical description lend credence to this plot. It has quite a bit going for it, besides a possible similarity in physical description. I'm sure there are plenty of people who could fit the description of tall, thin, with reddish hair. In fact as pointed out, it is strange that no one had commented on Ron's eyes ? light, bright and sparkling blue eyes *would* be startling with a redhead! Of course, it could always be a Dumbledore disguise or a narrative trick. However, there are plenty of problems, starting with Aberforth (as pointed out by probonoprobono amongst others.) Aberforth could be totally fictional, attributed with anecdotes from all and any of Ron's brothers. Or he could be part of an adopted family it always seemed strange that the great Dumbledore should have such a, well, illiterate brother. Another option for those who root for the missing Weasly son - Why not Aberforth before Bill? It fits the alphabetical pattern. Ron doesn't necessarily have to know this yet. (yeah, yeah, its all far fetched) One problem with Dumbledore!Ron is that it negates our conditioning to accept Dumbledore as always truthful. So how far do we believe Dumbledore now? Do we get to reexamine all his words as we do with Moody!Crouch ? Brin: I've got one more problem to add. When Dumbledore questions Crouch Jr. in GoF, he asks about the Marauders' Map in a way that sounds like he doesn't know what it is. If he remembers everything else to the second and the tiniest detail, he can't have forgotten that the map exists No, he can't have forgotten..pretending maybe, but why? To maintain the illusion Harry (and thus young Ron) had about Dumbledore not knowing about the map perhaps? It's a stretch.. And then Piskmiffo himself: ... and I hope that Ron!Dumbledore is either forgetful about minor details (because of age or whatever) or that he lies to McGonagall. Because otherwise there is something in the first chapter of PS that doesn't quite fit. "My dear Professor, surely a sensible person like yourself can call him by his name? All this `You-Know-Who' nonsense I have *never* seen any reason to be frightened of saying Voldemort's name." Well, never is never, but I sure hope he's senile. Yep, Ron *is* afraid of saying the name. But if he overcomes it later, the "never" could be a bit of typical Ron generalization. After 130 years, his early days may not count so much with him. Eric: In PoA, it is said that it was Dumbledore's testimony that Sirius was the Potters' Secret Keeper that was the clincher that sent Sirius to Azkaban: "I myself gave evidence to the Ministry that Sirius had been the Potters' Secret Keeper." (PoA, US edition, pg. 392). Now, if Dumbledore really were Ron, he would've known from the start that Sirius was innocent and that Pettigrew was untrustworthy, especially because he was the one who let him sleep in his bed for years. I'm sure there's more if one searches. So, how are you going to explain this? Me: Um, I'm not! But it could be that Ron!Dumbledore had tried to persuade the Potters this time around and truly believed that this time they had picked Sirius. As the events unfolded, he realized that time couldn't be changed after all ? or atleast not that part. If it was already determined that the Potters be betrayed, by tampering with time Ron!Dumbledore might have caused Sirius to betray them instead of Pettigrew. It is destined. If he believed this, he could have given his testimony in good faith. This brings in a debate about the nature of time travel and what can and cannot be changed. Taking Dumbledore!Ron as a given, there are limits to time travel (or bi-location) in the Wizarding world. So far we've come across just one type of time travel, so I'm keeping within the rules of the time turner for this discussion. Even if the mode of time travel changes, the effects on the time/space continuum and the taboos associated with it would, I presume, be the same. The crux of time travel appears to be that you can only function in the past if you somehow already fit into the existing pattern. Harry is able to conjure his patronus mainly because, paradoxically, the patronus was already conjured even before he went back in time. He *had* to go back in time to fulfill what had already occurred. Its only if he *hadn't* gone back in time that he would have been disrupting the time/space continuum. If he hadn't gone back, he would not have been alive - and time as we know would have been out of whack. Does this make sense? Similarly, time had been `scripted' with Hermione in two different classes or more at the same time. Even while she sat in one class the first time around, time was scripted to show a Hermione in the other class as well. Thus when she went back, she wasn't changing time.If no one had noticed Hermione the first time around in that class, and then they did the second time around, she would have been, well,..SEEN. The one time Hermione couldn't go back to do a class was when it was evident that she *hadn't* gone back. The script didn't allow it. And if this reading of the nature of time travel is true, I find it very disturbing `cause it sounds very much predetermined ? almost like destiny. Dumbledore, PoA, US paperback pg 393: "..But remember this both of you: *you must not be seen*. Miss Granger you know the law ? you know what is at stake *you-must-not-be-seen*" There are so many references within a few pages to "you-must-not-be-seen". The point is this `script' can so easily bedisrupted when a person is seen where they are not supposed to be. But is this disruption cosmic? How drastic are the consequences - Irrecoverable damage, Or just plain inconvenient? If it is very drastic, this could explain why Dumbledore!Ron didn't stop Riddle as a kid, or save the Potters. (so much less grief, and besides Harry would be safe). Ron had to stick to the script, changing only that which was allowed. But if it is mostly about breaking the law and not about drastic cosmic consequences, Ron could have been more proactive as Dumbledore don't you think? And we have canon for "loads" of people who have broken this law ? and apparently the WW managed to cope, even if perhaps with great difficulty. Hermione in PoA, US paperback, Pg 399: " you wouldn't understand, you might even attack yourself! Don't you see? Professor McGonagall told me what awful things have happened when wizards have meddled with time loads of them ended upkilling their past or future selves by mistake." Would telling the Potters about Pettigrew have killed his future/ past self? Maybe ? no one knows. We do know that Dumbledore tried warning them, but apparently couldn't change time! Morgan touches on the same thing: This gets a bit into physics and time travel paradoxes, but this is similar to the Grandfather Paradox (in which a hypothetical person goes backwards in time and kills their own grandfather before their parent on that side of the family was conceived. The question then opened is what happens to you if your parent were never born). One solution to the Grandfather Paradox is this: you can go back in time as often and as far back as you like, but you will still never be able to kill your grandfather. You want to go back in time and be a cause factor (you want to cause your grandfather to be dead) but since the effect of you NOT killing your grandfather (your birth) has already happened, you cannot go back and change it. If you tried, you would simply fail every time you tried. And Nobody's Rib contributes: And anything that young Dumbledore!Ron did wouldn't be interfering with the past, because it had already happened. But it gets trickier once you get involved with people more directly linked to present time situations - situations you have previous knowledge of. (You can only *change* that which you are already aware of.) Once D!R is involved with situations, such as VWI trials that Eric mentioned, that Ron knew about, he is no longer operating purely off of D!R instincts, but instead off of future-knowledge instincts, and to change these aspects of the past would mean he would potentially change the future as well. I'm confusing myself here, but, luckily for us, D!R has had 100 years to ponder the metaphysics of time travel, and he would understand the intricacies far better. (That's a cop-out, I know.) My answer to Eric's question: by the time the trials roll around, D!R is no longer young and foolish but older and wise, and, regretfully, D!R knows that he cannot risk his own existence (and the future's existence) by changing past events. But then how can he do things to interfere with HHR's lives to help them out? Easy - those things have already happened. Just like Harry knew he could do the patronus spell, because he had already done it before. And if I try to sort this part of the argument out any more, my head will burst. ME again: In summary of that, it looks like Ron going back in time does not change anything. He went back in time to fulfill the time-script that demanded a Dumbledore. But the role of Dumbledore is already defined, ie, he has already done those things before. So if Dumbledore or anyone else did not save Harry's life the first time around, Ron going back in time does not help. Nobody's Rib: Well, it really is foolish of him to go back in the first place, since purposefully changing *anything* could really mess *everything* up. (ex: saving baby Harry could somehow result in Voldemort killing baby Ron, and thus the space time continuum collapses... or something...). But Ron *conveniently* wasn't around when Harry and Hermione time turner-ed in PoA, and thus did not receive Hermione's careful warnings about time travel. And impulsive 17 year-old Ron would be thinking with his heart and not his head when he made the decision to go back in time. Me again: According to this, REDHEAD ALWAYS in essence fulfills nothing except explain Dumbledore's pre-knowledge of things. By the initial reasoning, something happens to Harry, causing Ron to make the desperate decision to go back in time. But he still can't change anything, and Harry dies anyway. OR Ron!Dumbledore manages to break the script, do something and save Harry ... giving Ron no reason to go back at all in the first place. Neither of this works. Of course, R!D can save Harry's life this time around, and then give young Ron the timeturner and instruct him to blindly turn it around so many times...tricking his younger self to fulfill the paradox. Ummm, would that work? Brin: >Actually, I'd like for Ron himself to be aware of it, because that >would reinforce the theme of Ron making a sacrifice. On the one hand >he will get the fame, glory and stand-alone hero position he always >wanted, but on the other hand he will lose his life and friends in >the present day and take on a mind-blowing responsibility! All this accomplishes in the narrative function is to sacrifice Ron from the present in order to explain Dumbledore's knowledge of events. It also makes Harry very much indebted to Ron, and gives Ron awesome powers (the greatest wizard in the world) that are not backed up by what we know to date about his powers. Unless a lot of Dumbledore's `greatness' comes from his `power' to predict the future. (Ah! So that's how he knows which of Trelawney'spredictions are true!) None of which prepares him to defeat Grindlewald. This theory also makes Ron the supreme being of the series ? not Harry. Try as you might to give Harry a central role, if Ron is Dumbledore it is *he* who saves the world by saving Harry through his bravery, loyalty, perseverance, power, etc. What does Harry have to stack against that? A famous name and an ability to resist Voldmort ? and I guess the power to inspire Ron to become Dumbledore. Beyond that, Ron!Dumblore does everything. Harry owes him everything. And I don't like that at all. Errol Who really liked this theory, but... From pennylin at swbell.net Fri Mar 7 13:29:21 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 07:29:21 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry & Hermione Siblings? References: Message-ID: <067401c2e4ad$8fcdf5b0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 53370 Hi -- theultimatesen wrote: <<<<<>>>>>>>>> Well, Dumbledore does say that the Dursleys are Harry's only living relatives. That's the first point against this argument. But, let's say you don't trust Dumbledore. How does Hermione's birthdate (Sept 19th ......either 1979 or 1980) play into this scenario? Keep in mind that Harry was born 31 July 1980. You'd have to assume that Hermione was born in Sept 1979, and that Lily was pregnant again scarcely 6 weeks later. Not impossible........but ......er.........not all that likely really. And, if Lily was willing to die to protect Harry, I have a hard time believing she'd send another child away to live with another family. Many ages ago, a member suggested that perhaps Harry and Hermione were cousins. I debunked that theory genealogically in the following messages: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/4599 and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/4667 Penny (ever the genealogist.........) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hp at plum.cream.org Fri Mar 7 13:42:06 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 13:42:06 +0000 Subject: Timeline (Re: Dumbledore is Ron?) In-Reply-To: References: <18a.16e1b184.2b9993ae@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030307130855.00977980@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53371 Fred Waldrop wrote: >Now according to the Lexicon, Hagrid's timeline was: >1943, He is falsely accused of opening the CoS, expelled and given >the gameskeeper position. >So, this means that Arthur and Molly go to Hogwarts, and *GRADUATES >BEFORE* 1943. Exactly how old are the Weasleys? They would have had >to be born no later than 1925, more likely around 1920 to 1923 seeing >as how Molly does not talk about going to school with Hagrid >(1943 - 18 years old when graduating = 1925). And I do not think >someone would forget Hagrid once you meet him. Not necessarily. That whole line of reasoning is based on an assumption that there was only ever one gamekeeper at a time. Besides, would a 13 year-old with limited experience and education (and the stigma of expulsion) immediately be given a very responsible job at the school from which he's just been expelled? I think not. Sure, Hagrid *says* that he was "kept on as gamekeeper" but knowing him, he could have meant "kept on as *a* gamekeeper". I see Ogg as quite advanced in his years at the time the Weasley parents were at Hogwarts and although he still had the title of Keeper of the Keys and was in charge of the grounds, Hagrid was under his wing and was being trained up and eventually took over when Ogg retired or died. Although Molly doesn't say that Hagrid was around during her schooldays, she doesn't say that he *wasn't*, either. Although there's no direct interaction between her and Hagrid, she never asks who he is, so it's perfectly feasible that Hagrid was there during her school days, but the Keeper of Keys everyone knew and recognised was Ogg. He sat at the High Table at feasts and he was the one everyone knew to be in charge, but Hagrid was around as well. I have absolutely no problem with the Weasleys having gone to school well after Hagrid and Riddle, especially as this conclusion is reached largely on the grounds that Hagrid dropped an indefinite article (had he said "*kept on as a* gamekeeper", we wouldn't be having this conversation)... So, what's more likely: that Hagrid drops an indefinite article, or that a 13 year-old (if large) boy is given one of the most important non-academic jobs at a major school when he's expelled? From hp at plum.cream.org Fri Mar 7 15:23:40 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 15:23:40 +0000 Subject: Prongs Patronus/REDHEAD ALWAYS In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.20030307013944.00959d20@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030307140424.009795e0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53372 Norm wrote: >Just to make sure I'm getting it: I had been framing the issue in >terms of: how does Harry1 survive in order to come back as Harry2 to >be able to save Harry1. The real issue becomes: what happens if >Harry2 *doesn't* save Harry1 (say, he just sits there waiting in vain >for dear ol' Dad to show up and cast the Patronus)? Then, if I'm >getting this right, *that's* what would alter the reality, and *both* >Harrys would cease to exist, or perhaps only Harry2, and Harry1 would >exist only as the shell of himself that would result from a >successful Dementor's Kiss. > >Is that about right? That's *exactly* right. At least, that's the way I understand it, based partially on what Harry tells Hermione. And on a separate issue... I was going to write a second post in reply to Eroll's musings on REDHEAD ALWAYS, but I realised that the above partially ties in with what I wanted to say, and short posts are non-U on this list: Eroll said: >And if this reading of the nature of time travel is true, I find it very >disturbing `cause it sounds very much predetermined ? almost like destiny. I don't think I agree. The thing about future destiny (of the pre-determined kind) is that whatever choices we make, they are irrelevant because what we do has been pre-arranged on a cosmic basis, and our choices are in some respects foisted upon us in order to make our destinies happen. I agree that this is a distasteful thought. However, when it comes to time travel, things get trickier. Regardless of the (theoretical) physical properties of time and which school of fictional time travel one wishes to follow, we are the sum of our experiences, both the small and major ones. As Dumbledore tells Harry (although it's in respect of the future rather than the past), "The consequences of our actions are always so complicated, so diverse, that predicting the future is a very difficult business indeed...." (PoA UK Ed. p 311). The same thing goes for our actions *in the past*. These things happened, and there's no way that we can change them. If we have the means (say, by possession of a Time-Turner) to attempt to do so, we would change who we are. It's not so much a question of pre-determination, that the choices we made (either deliberately or just as a result of circumstances) which determine who we are were somehow "imposed" on us by some Great Cosmic Plan. It's an issue of things which have happened, and if they'd happened any differently we wouldn't be who we are, and the whole web of events which surround who we are would have turned out differently. A banal example: my story of how I came to become a Potterholic. Having decided from what I'd heard previously that the Potter books were for kids, I'd never read them. However, I went to see the first movie at the cinema at a preview showing, which I do with almost all films (habit, rather than deliberate choice). I came out of the cinema with a question in my head (why Snape hates Harry) which the movie didn't answer. As it happens, my bus home was delayed (not because of any choice I made) and it was raining. I went into the bookshop next to my bus-stop to escape the rain and thought of looking for an answer to my question. My intention (choice) had been to flick through the book, but the shop was closing, so I bought a copy of the book (imposed choice). I started reading it on the bus home and finished it by the time I went to bed. The next day, I was doing my shopping and at the supermarket checkout, someone had left a copy of CoS lying around (happenstance). I picked it up, flicked through it and decided that I may as well read it, as I'd moderately enjoyed the first book. So I bought it, and by the time I'd gone to bed that night, had finished it. I then made a deliberate choice to buy the remaining books, and got involved in HP fandom. This changed how I have decided to spend a huge proportion of my time ever since, the people I know (and what we talk about), and perhaps (or perhaps not) made some small change to HP online fandom. The thing is that had my bus not been delayed, I would have gone home and found the answer to my question online, which had been my intention (choice) as I'd walked out of the cinema. I don't *know* if I'd have ended up reading the book, or got as involved in HP fandom as I did, but I did. I don't believe that it was pre-determined that this should happen to me, but it did. It didn't involve a moral choice, and it's impossible to say what would have happened if things had occurred differently. Would I want to have changed the circumstances if I'd had the chance? Of course not, although I do recall being annoyed at the time by the delay to my bus and probably would have wanted to change the circumstances which had led it to be late. Or, to return to what Dumbledore said, the effects of that bus's being late were far-reaching. I have no idea what effects it had on the other people waiting for it, but I'm sure that they'd have their stories to tell as well. From burnt dinners and waking up in the night with indigestion, to dogs left unwalked, etc, etc. What am I trying to say? I don't believe that the bus was delayed in order to make some Great Cosmic Plan resolve itself. It happened. Big deal. But it had consequences, some of which were probably good, some were probably bad, and some were life-changing (as in my case). Changing any one of those consequences would have changed the present in some way, large or small. The moral of the tale is that whilst our choices (and yes, circumstances) can and do determine any possible futures, these futures are unwritten and unresolved. The past, however, *is* written, and there's no way that we can change it without changing who we are and the world we live in. So if we have the means and opportunity to travel to the past, the changes we institute may be infinitesimal, but the *effects* of those changes may be enormous. One of the reasons I adore the whole time-travelling plot in PoA so much is that is does not *change* the past any way whatsoever. I see this as an integral part of the often-repeated main "theme" of the books which is prejudice. In a very subtle way, we prejudge what is happening around us based on our point of view. If we had the opportunity to step outside ourselves and see ourselves from a different perspective, we'd see the same reality but in a different way. Perhaps we'd end up just a little wiser as a result. And thus, fairly average Ron, by the very fact of going back and seeing the reality he's always known from a different perspective (i.e. Dumbledore's) becomes wiser, and indeed the wise man everyone Dumbledore knows to be. It's not just because he knows what's going on and what's going to happen which makes him *appear* wise. It's because he can see these things from a different point of view which makes him inherently wiser. The fact that various disastrous things happen but he is powerless to change them only makes the whole idea more poignant. As I said last night, I find the whole of REDHEAD ALWAYS utterly preposterous and don't for a moment think that it will pan out, but as an idea, it's utterly in keeping with the rest of the Potterverse thematically, narratively and in terms of characterisation. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who'd like to apologise for rambling and skirting the shores of Off-Topicality. From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Mar 7 14:48:19 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 14:48:19 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry & Hermione Siblings? References: <067401c2e4ad$8fcdf5b0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <3E68B133.000001.29263@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 53373 Penny wrote - Many ages ago, a member suggested that perhaps Harry and Hermione were cousins. I debunked that theory genealogically in the following messages: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/4599 and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/4667 Penny (ever the genealogist.........) I agree with most of what you said in those messages but I don't see why they couldn't *theoretically* be cousins. It couldn't be on Lily's side (unless Petunia has a sister she's never mentioned, and I think she'd be quite proud of a dentist since it would fit nicely into her middle class world). Before I go into why I think it is possible I want to say that we don't know much about how magical children are 'found' for Hogwarts. I think it's possible that until they get the names and send off the letters they don't know which muggleborns are going to turn out to have magical potential. If they do know the names before then then I admit there may be a hole in my theory, because I'm assuming that the staff haven't made the connection between Hermione and the Potters. So assuming they *are* cousins let's consider how it would be possible. Can t be on Lily's side therefore it must be on James' side. And it must be a sister in order for Hermione to be a Granger and not a Potter. Since Hermione thinks her parents are muggles i see one of two possibilities - a)she's adopted or has a stepmother (but the latter I think we'd know) or b) her mother's actually a squib. For option b the theory would run something like - James had an older sister who was a squib. She got a good muggle education since she (I assume) couldn t go to Hogwarts, married someone she met at university (well they are both dentists so that seemed most likely to me) had Hermione and never speaks of her magical past. Maybe because she's scared it might be dangerous what with evil old Voldemort killing her brother and all. Possibility a I think actually has more promise. If Hermione was adopted there would have to be a reason why she was adopted by muggles not wizards. Maybe James' sister, like James, married a muggleborn. Unlike Harry who survived an attack, perhaps Hermione simply wasn't there when her parents were killed (they were out at a restaurant or something and were targetted because he was a muggleborn, no other reason so no reason for the DEs to apparate to their home and kill Hermione and whoever was babysitting). So poor little Hermione was orphaned, James and family could have taken her in but because they were in danger they thought it would be safer to let her father's muggle relatives take her in. I'm assuming that strange things didn t happen a lot around muggle Hermione or she would have mentioned it so there was no reason for her parents to talk about the wizarding world to her It's not terribly uncommon for adoptive parents to not tell a child s/he's adopted so I could see why they wouldn't - especially since her parents were murdered - no need to traumatize the poor kid. If the Grangers had got on reasonably well with their wizarding relative (unlike Petunia) it would explain their incredibly accepting and proud behaviour when they find out she's a witch. Stretching? Yes definitely. Possible? Certainly. Do I think they actually are related? Nope but it's nice to theorize anyway. K From grace701 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 15:53:21 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 15:53:21 -0000 Subject: Percy the traitor? In-Reply-To: <20030307014204.34966.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53374 Sparrow wrote: >It remains interesting to me that the Weasleys >play *such* an importance in Harry's world, too many >co-incidental things happen as a result of Harry >being close to the Weasleys, who are Minister of >Magic workers,Marauder map holders,dragon handlers >etc.... Yes THANK YOU SPARROW!! I found it so weird/interesting that some things that happen to Harry are somehow related to the Weasleys. Ex. what a coincidence Pettigrew picked the Weasleys to stay with and then Ron happens to be his bestfriend; the twins have the Marauders map whom they happen to give to Harry and Malfoy happens to put Tom Riddle's diary in Ginny's cauldron. Sounds like they are out to *not* help Harry, but to also help Harry. But it could just be all coincidence, of course, for the sake of the book. And I want to believe they are clueless as to what Voldemort has planned. I love them too dearly to think they're all evil, except perhaps Percy and Ginny. ;) Now about Percy. Scabbers was originally Percy's rat, right, so Pettigrew could have brainwashed "poor" Percy. Let's say while Percy slept Pettigrew would speak to him in his sleep of how he is to help Lord Voldemort get Harry. Or would it be far-fetched to say that Pettigrew has Percy under the Imperious curse? (You don't need to be close to the person so that the spell can continue to work, right?) I've had, for a very long time, this feeling that there is something more to Mr. and Mrs. Weasley. I feel as though they knew about Harry from a long time. I know everyone does know him being that he's the boy that lived, but I mean on a personal level. Were they friends with the Potters before Harry was born? Could there be a reason why they haven't mentioned it? Has anyone felt that, too, or is it just me? Greicy From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 15:58:22 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 07:58:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy the traitor? In-Reply-To: <20030307014204.34966.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030307155822.80776.qmail@web20001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53375 --- The Sparrow wrote: > > '*You* dont care about Ginny,' said Ron, whose > ears > where reddening > now. '*Youre* just worried Im going to mess up > your > chances of being > Head Boy.' > 'Five points from Gryffindor!' Percy said tersely, > fingering his prefect badge,'And I hope it teaches > you > a lesson! No more *detective work*, or Ill write to > Mum!' > Chamber of Secrets,chapter nine page 119. > > This quote and many before has tripped my brain > into the theory that > Percy is more than he seems, or at least > deceptive. Note > Percy doesn't jump to the defence that he *does* > care about Ginny, just that Ron deserves points > off for > questioning him. I'm on two Harry Potter groups so > I can't remember who I posted this theory to > before > but I think OotP will give us a Percy we never > expected (or wanted)to see..... > It remains interesting to me that the Weasleys > play *such* an importance in Harry's world, too > many > co-incidental things happen as a result of Harry > being close to the Weasleys, who are Minister of > Magic workers,Marauder map holders,dragon handlers > etc....This is another reason why I suspect > Percy;he's close to Harry,he is able to see him on > the > holidays *when Dumbledore is not there to protect > him*. > > Percy values his job a great deal, and Ron has said > before (I don't know where the quote is)that he > wouldn't be surprised if Percy sold them out if they > broke the rules. Another quote at the start of PoA > got > me thinking too.. I can't give you verbatim (my > housemates busy with my copy!)but when Harry catches > up with the Weasleys in the Leaky Cauldron Percy > approaches Harry with a tone which JKR describes *as > though he'd never met him*. Perhaps Percy is not who > he seems to be..... > Sorry for the sloppy quote directions, > SPARROW > > I disagree. I think taking the points is because he *does* care about Ginny. I think he was upset that his brother would say something like that, believe something like that. But he's also trying to act like it doesn't bother him, so he takes points for an actual offense to retaliate rather than speaking out. If anything, Percy seems a bit of a mother hen to Ginny to me. He made the twins stop making her cry and he made her take pepper-up potion and acted like an interfering big brother in general. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From grace701 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 16:05:37 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 16:05:37 -0000 Subject: Hearing Voices- NOT Imagined, With A Side Question About Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53376 Juliet wrote: >And, going with my theory above, they might have resolved most of >the horrible memories in their past. Like Hermione or Ron- they >have no horrible, deep, nasty secret(AFAWK, and sorry to any >Torment!Ron/Hermione theories..) that would give them such >torture, so all they do is feel horrible. Um....could someone help me out here. I can't remember what is AFAWK and I would really like to know about these Torment! Ron/Hermione theories Juliet wrote about. Thank you, Greicy From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Mar 7 16:11:33 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 16:11:33 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore is Ron? In-Reply-To: <20030307035139.16353.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53377 Andrea wrote: > I keep thinking someone's about to find > something to completely disprove it, but no one HAS yet! Well, when we first meet Ron, he has a dirty nose that he can't get clean. Dumbledore, as we well know, is an expert at keeping his nose clean. Is there any more to be said? David From probono at rapidnet.com Fri Mar 7 16:27:15 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 16:27:15 -0000 Subject: Timeline (Re: Dumbledore is Ron?) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030307130855.00977980@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53378 > Fred Waldrop wrote: > > >Now according to the Lexicon, Hagrid's timeline was: > > > > >1943, He is falsely accused of opening the CoS, expelled and given > >the gameskeeper position. > >So, this means that Arthur and Molly go to Hogwarts, and *GRADUATES > >BEFORE* 1943. Exactly how old are the Weasleys? They would have had > >to be born no later than 1925, more likely around 1920 to 1923 seeing > >as how Molly does not talk about going to school with Hagrid > >(1943 - 18 years old when graduating = 1925). And I do not think > >someone would forget Hagrid once you meet him. GulPlum responded: > Not necessarily. That whole line of reasoning is based on an assumption > that there was only ever one gamekeeper at a time. > > Besides, would a 13 year-old with limited experience and education (and the > stigma of expulsion) immediately be given a very responsible job at the > school from which he's just been expelled? I think not. > > Sure, Hagrid *says* that he was "kept on as gamekeeper" but knowing him, > he could have meant "kept on as *a* gamekeeper". > > I see Ogg as quite advanced in his years at the time the Weasley parents > were at Hogwarts and although he still had the title of Keeper of the Keys > and was in charge of the grounds, Hagrid was under his wing and was being > trained up and eventually took over when Ogg retired or died. > > Although Molly doesn't say that Hagrid was around during her schooldays, > she doesn't say that he *wasn't*, either. Although there's no direct > interaction between her and Hagrid, she never asks who he is, so it's > perfectly feasible that Hagrid was there during her school days, but the > Keeper of Keys everyone knew and recognised was Ogg. He sat at the High > Table at feasts and he was the one everyone knew to be in charge, but > Hagrid was around as well. > > I have absolutely no problem with the Weasleys having gone to school well > after Hagrid and Riddle, especially as this conclusion is reached largely > on the grounds that Hagrid dropped an indefinite article (had he said > "*kept on as a* gamekeeper", we wouldn't be having this conversation)... > > So, what's more likely: that Hagrid drops an indefinite article, or that a > 13 year-old (if large) boy is given one of the most important non- academic > jobs at a major school when he's expelled? Now Me: Yes GulPlum is right. And if we believe what Tom Riddle says in CoS. Dumbledore persuaded Dippet to keep Hagrid and *train* him as gamekeeper. We don't know how long Hagrid was Keeper-in-training and he could still have been in training when Arthur and Molly went to school. You know, I've always thought of Hagrid as older than the Potter's and yet younger than the Weasley's. So I assumed they went to school before Hagrid. Perhaps it's just because he's so Young-at-Heart! -Tanya From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Fri Mar 7 16:59:31 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 10:59:31 -0600 Subject: Evil!lupin: a rebuttal (was Dobby/ bigotry & choices /Evil!Lily & Evil!Lupin (Was: foreshadowings in CoS) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53379 Nobody's Rib wrote: Just as the WW automatically dislikes Lupin for his werewolf status, the readers tend to like him for the same reason. (Isn't it always easy to take sides with the person who is the target of bigotry and prejudice?) But to trust someone because they are the victim of prejudice is just as dangerous as not trusting someone for the same reason - because the evidence forming both these stances comes from the *prejudice* rather than the *person*, the *rumors* rather than the *facts*, and completely discounts the *choices* the person has made. I respond: Well, lets look at the choices he has made. So far, Lupin has made the difficult decision to return Hogwarts to teach, even though the place is surely rife with both good and bad memories for him. He has sworn to protect Harry Potter and the rest of the school from one of his former best friends (I know that this isn't directly stated in canon, but I'm certain that this is at least part of the reason Dumbledore asks him to teach, and at least part of the reason he accepts. His knowledge of Sirius Black would have been a great asset if Black were truly after Harry.). He has done his best to resist sniping at snape throughout the year (not easy, I'm sure!). He has promised to help Harry defend himself from the dementors, even though 1) the odds for success are very low 2) seeing Harry probably reminds him very painfully of James, dredging up yet more bad memories. Finally, and to me, most significantly, when faced with the possibility of gaining revenge, he DOES NOT DWELL ON IT. Like Sirius, Lupin is perfectly willing to take revenge on Pettigrew, but once Harry dissuades them from it, he does not obsess over it. To my mind, one of the marks posessed by almost all evil people is incredible vindictiveness. Evil people, from what I have always seen and read, feel that any opposition or betrayal must be repaid in kind. I admit, none of this is solid proof, but if we look at the choices Lupin's made so far, I have to say that I get the picture of a very good man. Hobbit-guy, who'd hate it to have any more of MWPP turn evil suddenly. From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 17:22:12 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 09:22:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dumbledore is Ron? In-Reply-To: <001301c2e466$68d54680$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: <20030307172212.20364.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53380 --- Gregory Lynn wrote: > Just to interject a thought...who's to say there is/was a *real* > Dumbledore that Ron replaced? Lord Voldemort is a creation of Tom > Riddle. Couldn't Albus Dumbledore be a creation of Ron Weasley the same > way? That was the first possibility we were considering, I think, but then people pointed out that Albus has a brother, Aberforth. If such a brother really existed (and that would be easy enough to check, so why would Ron make it up?), then there has to have been a REAL Albus Dumbledore before Ron took over. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 17:28:39 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 09:28:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dumbledore is Ron? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030307172839.61192.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53381 --- Fred Waldrop wrote: > So, this means that Arthur and Molly go to Hogwarts, and *GRADUATES > BEFORE* 1943. Exactly how old are the Weasleys? They would have had > to be born no later than 1925, more likely around 1920 to 1923 seeing > as how Molly does not talk about going to school with Hagrid > (1943 - 18 years old when graduating = 1925). And I do not think > someone would forget Hagrid once you meet him. I think it's far more likely that Hagrid was taken on as an assistant gameskeeper first, because he WAS only 13 when the Chamber was opened, and worked under Ogg for a while before taking over, or Hagrid was sent to live somewhere else while he grew up, and after Dumbledore became Headmaster he brought Hagrid back as gameskeeper. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 17:41:28 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 17:41:28 -0000 Subject: Dobby & Elves - Bound Past, Present, & Future In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53382 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nobodysrib" wrote: > > GulPlum AKA Richard wrote: > > > Dobby does *NOT* make any promise not to save Harry .... > > .... Dobby's only reaction is a big smile. ... this could ... > > be considered acquiescence, (or) ... a very sly way of getting > > around making the promise. > > My comment: (Nobodys Rib) > > We don't know much about house elf magic. ... He smiles to Harry's > "don't save my life again" comment because he knows this is a > promise he cannot make. > > ... And Dobby having a greater (life-saving) role ahead of him > correlates well with HP themes of bigotry and choices. > > ... house elves .. are not as looked down upon as werewolves, > (but) their liberties certainly go unrecognized, .... What's the > best way to show that house elves are capable of being their own > masters? Have one save the day. What better way to make the WW > question what other tragedies might have been averted had their own > house elves had free will? And what better way for Dobby to show > the other ... house elves that their lives are good for more than > following orders ... > > - Nobody's Rib bboy_mn: Interestingly, in relation to a fan fic I may someday write if ever I get over the lazy slump I'm in, I've been giving the plight of house elves some thought. So first I pose the question, are house-elves slaves? Answer: yes and no. They are in a form of /Voluntary/ Servitude. Which is not the same as an indentured servant. An indentured servant voluntarily becomes a slave for a fixed period of time in return for some compensation. Hold on to these two key words; voluntary and compensation. Now I ask, what is it that holds an elf to his Master and his master's house? Is there any binding document or magical, civil, or criminal legal precedent that establishes a Masters ownership of his alleged elf slave? I don't think so; I don't think a Master has any legal hold over or ownership of his elves. I think the only thing that binds an elf to his Master is the fact that the elf has volunteered to serve that person and his house, and that an elf's honor does not allow him/her to go back on that commitment, but once again, an elf's honor is not a legally binding contract. So in a sense, any elf can walk off the job anytime they want, and their Master will have no legal recourse; no means other than brute force and intimidation for enforcing his preceived ownership of that elf. Owners/Masters exploit this elf's honor to their advantage, and physically and psychological oppress the elves to keep any thought of free will or independant action from ever entering an elves mind. One thing that re-enforces this strictly voluntary agreement is that elves receive no compenstation for their efforts. You could say that room and board are the compensation, and while that could be reasonable compensation for their services, I can't see it as reasonable compensation to legally justify the ownership of another sentient being. So what's my point? I see this as the loophole through which elves will gain their freedom. During the past Voldemort reign by Dobby's own statement, elves were treated like vermin. Did you stop to think what that meant. What we used to do with 'vermin' is go out to the city dump and use them for target practice. That's what it means to be treated as vermin; that's how low your status is. You are reduced to the point where you have negative value, meaning that there is more value (entertainment value) in destroying you, than there is in keeping you. Afterall, there are house-elves that go from house to house begging for someone to serve. Kill one house-elf; big deal, they're free, you can always get another one. Once our good and loyal friend Dobby with the help of the smartest witch of her age, make the elves realize that their masters have no genuine hold over them, Dumbledore will have a network of extremely powerful spies and extremely powerful magical soldiers. It wouldn't bother me at all, if in the end, it was Dobby who defeated Voldemort. Seems ironically fitting that the lowest and least significant of all sentient creatures defeats the greatest wizard of all time. So, my basic point is that I don't think Masters truly own their elves. I don't think they have any genuine legal hold over them. Just a thought. bboy_mn From seventhsqueal at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 17:06:11 2003 From: seventhsqueal at yahoo.com (SeventhSqueal) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 09:06:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What motivated Dobby in CoS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030307170611.90638.qmail@web10706.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53383 Nobody's Rib posted: We don't know much about house elf magic. Might Dobby somehow *know* that it will at some point be his job to save Harry? Pre-CoS, he overhears the Malfoy's plotting to destroy Harry and assumes that he is the only one who can save Harry's life. Only, by the end of CoS, he sees that he has not saved Harry's life (only endangered him) - this time is yet to come. He smiles to Harry's "don't save my life again" comment because he knows this is a promise he cannot make. (snip) But house elves aren't allowed to make choices for themselves... well, all but one, the free one, the odd duck named Dobby. SeventhSqueal thinks about Dobby: Dobby's role in CoS really bothers me. If this is what motivates him: Dobby is the Malfoy's enslaved and abused, but faithful house elf (like all house elves). He overhears that Lucius is plotting to get him killed in his second year at Hogwarts. Dobby has heard that Harry Potter is a wonderful and great guy who's nice to everyone. He risks sneaking away from his master's home everyday for most of the summer break to hang out in the bushes in Privet drive to prevent Harry Potter from getting his mail and spy on him. He wants to keep Harry Potter safe and away from Hogwarts. Just because? I don't buy it. Dobby is a house elf. They get a strange sort of fulfillment from serving people and obeying their masters' wills. They are compelled to obey their masters or beat themselves up over it. Plus, in the Malfoy household I imagine that a wayward house elf would have been dealt with with severe abuse. If Dobby was hiding in the bushes against the will of his masters wouldn't the bushes be shredded from his trying to knock his head against the ground every day? There are only two ways I can justify this. One: Lucius Malfoy didn't want Harry Potter damaged during the following school year, and gave Dobby instructions to keep him out of Hogwarts by any means necessary. Two: Narcissa Malfoy put her house elf up to preventing Harry Potter from going to Hogwarts and getting hurt, because she's secretly sympathetic to Harry Potter and not her husband's little Mrs. We know she's a bit of a softie because she prevented Draco from being sent far away from her (at least this is the story that we were told) to Durmstrang and she sends him care packages full of sweets from home. This sounds like someone in the Malfoy house has the capacity for love. Plus, it could have been from her that Dobby learned that Harry is such a decent and noble person. Narcissa. Hmmmmmm. I notice there is no place for Narcissa next to Lucius on my Death Eater chart here. The Lestranges would have stood next to each other. Curious. Three: Add your idea here. ~SeventhSqueal There's no earthly way of knowing / Which direction we are going / There's no knowing where we're rowing / Or which way the river's flowing / Is it raining? / Is it snowing? / Is a hurricane a-blowing? / Not a speck of light is showing / So the danger must be growing / Are the fires of hell a-glowing? / Is the grisly reaper mowing? / Yes, the danger must be growing / 'Cause the rowers keep on rowing / And they're certainly not showing / Any signs that they are slowing! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com Fri Mar 7 17:33:51 2003 From: mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com (Edward Post) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 12:33:51 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:The Gryffindor Quidditch Team Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53384 GulPlum AKA Richard, who is open to suggestions, prompted some intriguing thoughts about Quidditch. His post is excerpted as follows: > > --- S N I P --- > >In narrative terms, though, I have a feeling that Quidditch is going to go >off on a different track in the remaining books. We've already had all the >permutations: --- S N I P --- > >We've already had the be-all and end-all of professional Quidditch, the >World Cup, so what can possibly top that? > >At the same time, to borrow one of my favourite phrases over on the Movie >list, a Potter book/movie without *some* Quidditch is like a James Bond >movie without a car chase. So Quidditch *has* to make an appearance in all >three remaining books. > >I've no idea how JKR has this element planned out, but I'm sure she has. > --- S N I P --- To which I ask: What if Quidditch is an idea that overlays the entirety of the series? I first asked myself that when rereading CoS -- in particular in the scene where Harry is explaining Quidditch to Colin. I don't have the book, but Harry explains how the game ends when the Seeker catches the golden Snitch. Is Pettigrew the "golden snitch"? So far: 1) Pettigrew's main contribution to the story is having RATTED on the Potters to Voldemort, i.e., he SNITCHED on them; and 2) how do know that Ron's early attempt at magic (" . . . butter mellow, turn this ugly fat rat yellow") was a complete failure? Maybe the action in the story will reach its conclusion when Pettigrew is caught in a way that has some finality? I note that in the Voldemort wars, one of the key defenses is the use of a secret KEEPER -- and the goalie/chief defender position in the game is a keeper. The seeker in the overall story is presumed to be, and probably is, Harry. But who knows? I'm sure there are more ways creative people could turn much of the story into an extended game of (or series of games of) Quidditch. It would be fun if at the end of the series a recap of all the action can be made to parallel the game. JKR wouldn't have to hit us over the head with the comparisons. The subtler the better? Mr. Ed _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Fri Mar 7 18:11:25 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea Moggach) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 13:11:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Gryffindor Quidditch Team In-Reply-To: <001c01c2e467$9e3da640$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: <20030307181125.30709.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53385 Gregory Lynn wrote: Just to toss another thought into the arena, has anyone thought of the possibility that Krum might transfer to Hogwarts? I don't think we've seen any transfer students yet, but there's got to be that possibility right? Clearly Krum isn't particularly fond of Karkaroff and Durmstrang, and prefers Hogwarts even if you discount his interest in Hermione. I don't remember off hand if he was a 6th year or 7th. He might have a year of schooling left. So what if Krum transfers to Hogwarts and gets sorted into Gryffindor? Might he not be named Quidditch captain due to his international experience, and might he not make himself Seeker? Or might the dark influences, the Durmstrang influence, cause Krum to be sorted into Slytherin where Harry has to compete directly against him? Just some ide thoughts. ___________ Gregory Lynn me: That would be an interesting situation - however I don't think it is possible. In GoF (page 77 - Bloomsbury edition) - Ron is talking about Krum being on the Bulgarian National team. "He's really young, too. Only just eighteen or something." Then on pg 219 when the Hogwart students are awaiting their guests - Durmstrang appears and among the students is Victor Krum. Ron reacts to Hermione stating that Krum is "only a quidditch player". "Only a Quidditch player?" "Hermione - he's one of the best Seekers in the world! I had no idea he was still at school." There may be more references to his age, but I can't think where they are at the moment. Does anyone else know of any other references to pin down Krum's exact age or school status. I don't recall any reference made as to where the visiting schools are taking their classes, so there is no clue there. Lea --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hp at plum.cream.org Fri Mar 7 19:14:07 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 19:14:07 +0000 Subject: Krum (was: The Gryffindor Quidditch Team) In-Reply-To: <20030307181125.30709.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> References: <001c01c2e467$9e3da640$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030307190401.009729d0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53386 At 18:11 07/03/03 , Lea Moggach wrote: >There may be more references to his age, but I can't think where they are >at the moment. Does anyone else know of any other references to pin down >Krum's exact age or school status. I don't recall any reference made as >to where the visiting schools are taking their classes, so there is no >clue there. Well, he's got to be over 17 (Tri-Wiz Tournament regulation) so he's *close* to the end of his time at school. The question is whether or not Durmstrang has the same policy as Hogwarts of repeating a year if you don't make the grade, and thus whether or not this is his final year, if he may have repeated a year somewhere along the line. We don't know the date of his birthday or Durmstrang's admissions policy, and thus whether he'd be in a classroom of mainly 18 year-olds, mainly 17 year-olds, or mainly 16 year-olds. All things being equal, at 17 he would *probably* be in his last, or perhaps penultimate year, and considering he's already got a career as a professional Quidditch player, this is likely. However, we don't know that all things are equal so he *may* have one year of school left, and perhaps even as many as two. My own view, for narrative purposes, is that he's now finished with school, which gives him more freedom to get involved in the workings of the British wizarding world. Then again, if my idea of an inter-school Quidditch competition comes about, he could come back in OotP while still a student. In other words, it's an open question. :-) From buddhacat at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 18:43:28 2003 From: buddhacat at yahoo.com (buddhacat) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 18:43:28 -0000 Subject: Not thorough, JKR? Seeing the TASKS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53387 > bboy_mn: > > The first and third tasks are easy to understand. The first is > obvious, and the third, sitting in high stands would allow you to see > into some parts of the maze, that's simple mechanics. So I think > without a doubt there was at least some limited vision into the maze > of the third task. Someone somewhere has to see at least something at > sometime. For me it's not a question of IF but a question of how much > and when. me: I don't think that answers the question. If you are up (very!) high, yes, you could see a little bit of the maze. The walls have to be fairly high to avoid giving away what's around the corner, high enough that you wouldn't be able to see the people in the maze, although you might see taller monsters and such. So it still leaves the question, what were the spectators really spectating at? While they may have seen glimpses here and there, for the most part they were watching plants grow. And so for me the problem is with JKR. After the first task, she has the kids tell Harry what happened with the other champions, so we know they could see everything. She doesn't after tasks 2 and 3 (admittedly, people were occupied with other things after the third task). So I assume they saw nothing. She also doesn't describe any way the spectators could see much of anything in tasks 2 and 3. She could have had Dumbledore devise magical ways to follow the action in 2 and 3. But she doesn't describe them, so we'll have to again assume they weren't done. That leaves two choices: either she didn't think about how there was nothing to watch, or she did and she didn't think it mattered. Either way we are left with an oddity, people attending a "sporting event" in which most (if not all) of the action is hidden from their view. -- Buddhacat From petra.delisser at postikaista.net Fri Mar 7 19:42:45 2003 From: petra.delisser at postikaista.net (brinforest) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 19:42:45 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore is Ron? In-Reply-To: <20030307172212.20364.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53388 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Andrea wrote: > --- Gregory Lynn wrote: (snip) Aberforth. If such a brother > really existed (and that would be easy enough to check, so why would Ron > make it up?), then there has to have been a REAL Albus Dumbledore before > Ron took over. > Hi Andrea, I've been thinking about this Aberforth business very hard, and I'm pretty sure it does not mean literally that Albus Dumbledore has a brother called Aberforth. What *specifically* points to this, I'm not ready to reveal just yet because of the still-gaping holes, but... anyway. (If anyone gets my drift from just this or notices the same little thingie, wow, then I obviously have a twin.) But anyhow, look at the circumstances: 1. There is only one mention of "Aberforth", and it is made by Dumbledore himself. 2. It is made privately in the presence of three children and Hagrid. (Vs. a crowd or more intelligent adults, sorry Hagrid!) 3. It is part of a pep talk. "Oh, I knew someone who this happened to, but it turned out just fine." If the someone and something is classified information, you don't necessarily have to give real names or the exact story just to cheer someone up. IMO, it wouldn't mean the receiver(s) of the pep talk are going to verify things happened *exactly* like that to your friend/neighbour/cousin twice removed. And I don't know about other people, but I don't think I'd consider this kind of cover-up *lying*. The core is true and the rest has nothing to do with it in this particular kind of situation. 4. I'm not sure beyond any doubt that *anyone* at Hogwarts would be able to prove that Dumbledore either has or doesn't have a brother, especially if he didn't want the exact truth to be known. Even without this little tidbit, or being Ron, he sure seems able to sit on a massive amount of information that only he knows about. I'm really having a blast of a lifetime with this theory. Thanks to everyone for the brainfood! Brin From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 19:47:11 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 19:47:11 -0000 Subject: Underage Magic at the Weasley's (and in general) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53389 Alex wrote: Yes, that particular example was a bad one (damn the movie for messing me up! j/k), but it still doesn't undermine the point I was trying to make, which is that the "Ban on Underage Magic" is a plot element that JKR created to prevent Harry from using magic on Dudley during summer vacation to keep him miserable and as a lead-in to CoS for what Dobby does, and it's otherwise been overlooked or abandoned because it's too restrictive to other story lines. JKR overlooks it in all the books, and it's really only a "Ban on Harry from doing Magic in front of Muggles or he _May_ get in Trouble". Me: Let me try to defend JKR a bit (not that she needs it). I believe that schoolchildren on vacation are indeed not allowed to do magic. But the tracking system in the MoM is such that it cannot determine who exactly preforms the spell. In other words, they only track the location. This is why F&G preform magic in the Burrow during the summer - there are adults living there, and the MoM simply doesn't know that it wasn't an adult who had preformed the spell. Let me try and go other the reasons you listed: >>>1. The ban is something that is only ever applied to Harry once (beginning of CoS), and it was used as a plot element to introduce us to how troublesome Dobby could be, as it's something Harry's not even guilty for. As Juliet points out above, in PoA, Harry is pardoned for blowing up Aunt Marge (when he actually is guilty) by none other than Fudge, the Minister of Magic! >>> In CoS, when Dobby preforms the Hovering Charm, the MoM only knows that a charm had been done at Privet Drive 4. They don't know who did it. But since Harry is the only wizard living there, they deduce that Harry was the one doing the magic. In PoA, Fudge was so relieved that Sirius hadn't murdered Harry when Harry ran away, he just didn't care about the fact that Harry did magic. >>>2. The ban seems to be ignored in wizarding families and at wizarding places (which are still outside of Hogwarts!). As harrydraco42 and misstresskathy pointed out in previous posts, the Weasley twins must have been using magic to create their Canary Creams. The child in GoF blowing up a slug at the Quidditch World Cup is scolded by the mother, but no ministry official descends on them to squash the behavior. Harry sends up red and gold sparks in Ollivander's in SS/PS, and students practice magic on the Hogwarts Express (still before school!).>>> First, I think I covered the location-not-wizard tracking system. Now, about the little boy witht the slug (Kevin, IIRC) and Ollivander's: I believe that the Restriction of Underage magic refers to children that are already at school - the ones who have studied magic and can control what they do, up to a certain point. Pre-Hogwarts kids, OTOH, constantly have spontanious outpourings of magic. It's a normal part of growing up for magical children, and they can't control it. >>>3. The ban is not exercised on the Weasleys twins when they feed Dudley the one ton toffee, nor is Harry in trouble when he causes Dudley to fall into the snake pit (even though this is before he knows he's a wizard, shouldn't there have been some ramifications if it's truly a "Ban?")>>> It's not a ban, it's a "Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery." The trick with Ton Tongue Toffee is that it was already enchanted at the Burrow. No one actually cast the Engorgement Charm on Dudley. This is why there no letter that we know of, although, admittedly, it could have arrived later. When Harry made the glass disappear, he wasn't in school yet, and I believe I covered that already. >>Maybe I don't have hard proof, but I stand by my idea that the ban on underage magic was a quickly conceived plot element that was too restrictive, so JKR's gone soft on it.>>> Actually, I think JKR is pretty consistent with it. It's also not as scary, I think, if the MoM doesn't know *everything.* It would be pretty oppressive if the Ministry knew who, when, and where had preformed what spell. >>>Wizards old and young, especially in non-muggle areas rely so heavily on magic, the ban is an unfair burden for them, and JKR's realized this when she's started exploring new areas such as the Weasley's home and the Quidditch World Cup. That's why she's gotten lax with it.>>> I, OTOH, think that kids who aren't 'fully qualified wizards' should not be allowed to preform magic whenever they want to, and that the restriction is a good thing. For two reasons: 1. Children screw up spells - 'like poor Eloise Midgen.' If, in addition, there aren't even adults around to fix the spells, it gets much worse. 2. Being magical is a responsibility. It's so easy to abuse one's magical abilities - Jelly-Legs Jinx everyone you don't like, Confundus-Charm the shop owner down the street into giving you two items for the price of one,Crucio your neighbour's evil dog, Imperio your mom into buying you tickets to the World Cup - sorry, this is slowly getting disgusting. Anyway, most children can't objectively judge their actions, especially before they do them. This is another reason for the restriction. I hope that helps, Maria From hp at plum.cream.org Fri Mar 7 19:52:06 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 19:52:06 +0000 Subject: Point of Order: "The Marauders" Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030307174456.00967460@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53390 I know that some people are going to feel that I'm deliberately out to offend them with this post. One of the reasons I'm going to refrain from quoting anyone in particular is precisely because I do NOT wish to do that. So I do apologise in advance if anyone takes this the wrong way... What I'm talking about is collectively calling James Potter, Sirius Black, Peter Pettigrew and Remus Lupin "The Marauders", and I am seriously, honestly, curious why anyone would want to call them that. I get a bit of a nervous twitch every time I see the term and I'd like to explain why. OK, the reason I can imagine most people would want to do so is because of the name of "The Marauder's Map". I really, really, don't want to repeat the rant about apostrophe abuse in general which started off a huge debate on the OT-Chatter list recently, but there is an apostrophe in "Marauder's", and its meaning is clear: there is *one* "Marauder". The Map's name is never, ever spelt any other way. I actually searched through PoA and GoF, and the Map's name appears in the text 15 and 10 times respectively, on top of which it's the title of Chapter Ten of PoA and thus appears as a header at the top of 20 pages (in the UK edition at least). Having seen the name written down so many times, I'm a bit of a loss as to why in several messages recently, it's been spelt "Marauders' Map", or worse, "Marauders Map". Considering some theories floating around HP fandom depend quite literally on the interpretation of elements of punctuation, please forgive me if I find it a little wanting when people are unable to copy down a word they've seen so many times. As per the conversation on OT-Chatter, I fully appreciate that some people only have audio versions of the books, and some have dyslexia or other writing/reading disorders, but I do find the frequency of this mis-spelling alarming, especially by adult (or at least, "grown up") readers. What's so important about that little apostrophe? Well, at various points in my life I've worked in the tourism industry and have become acquainted with the term "Visitor's Map/Plan", as I assume have most people, as visitors if not authors or distributors. Were these maps written by visitors (or even one visitor)? No, of course not. They were written by people who knew what they were talking about *for the benefit* of Visitors (or a single Visitor for each map). I take the name of the Marauder's Map in an analogous sense. Besides, I can't imagine the authors calling themselves "Marauders", which has zero positive connotations (at least in my mind, as a native speaker of British English). Furthermore, I don't see "a plunderer; one who pillages" (my dictionary's definition) fits the foursome. They were in search of adventure rather than thievery. The definition fits Gred & Forge pretty well, though (they use the Map to get food from the kitchens and party supplies from Honeydukes). I don't remember whether it was here or in some other forum, but someone once said "well, they had to call themselves *something*". As it happens, 1) well, no they didn't. Harry, Ron and Hermione, who appear just as closely allied to each other in their adventures, don't have a "gang name". 2) they *do* call themselves something: in what I consider a typical dig at pomposity (and the names of British law firms), they call themselves Messrs. Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs. The thing is, the two members of the foursome who've talked about those days, Remus and Sirius, have never, ever, referred to themselves as "The Marauders", but they both use their aliases when referring to their schooldays. With all that said, I repeat my original question: what reasonable grounds does anyone have to call them "The Marauders"? Of course, for online purposes, we use abbreviations and acronyms all over the place and this is no exception. If we constantly refer to Harry, Ron and Hermione collectively as HRH (or, some people, HHR), why not use what the foursome called themselves as the basis for an acronym: MWPP? Well, that's what I and several other people do, and I don't have a problem with anyone using a reasonable basis for an acronym, but to be brutally honest, I consider use of "The Marauders" in this context to betray a sloppy command of grammar and a sloppy appreciation of the nuances of the name, which hardly befits the highly detailed analysis which the books undergo. As I said at the top, I don't mean to talk down to anyone and I apologise if my typically strident and aggressive phrasing has offended anyone. I do appreciate that these kind of things get accepted by common usage, but I for one, as a grammar nazi (to use a term which cropped up several times on OT-Chatter) :-) will fight for correct usage until my dying breath... ;-) -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who is beginning to think about another Point of Order post about the British Muggle school system and associated terminology on which Hogwarts is clearly based, and which has implications for the future... From artsylynda at aol.com Fri Mar 7 19:59:52 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 14:59:52 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] hearing voices Message-ID: <104.299275fd.2b9a5438@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53391 redandgoldlion: > in Finwitch's reply, she mentioned Harry's seeing > Buckbeak as one of his "future visions." Perhaps I mis-read, but I > always got the impression that he was making this up. Didn't he say > something to the effect of remembering what Ron said about making his > exam vision up and doing the same thing for his test? That just gave > me a thought, though! What if he *did* see Beaky escaping, but just > *thought* he was making it up - a sort of subconscious vision The book says he remembered Ron's making things up and he decided to make it up, and the first thing that came to his mind was Buckbeak. But this is one of those times when he, and we, have to wonder, was he really making it up, or did he have a vision of some kind that he THOUGHT he made up??? I think he actually did have a vision, but thought it was just an idea he had -- whatever the case, it came true, while most of his other "made up" predictions (his beheading, etc.) didn't. Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From artsylynda at aol.com Fri Mar 7 20:20:17 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 15:20:17 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 2582 Message-ID: <159.1cda14c0.2b9a5901@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53392 In a message dated 3/6/2003 2:42:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > Steve wrote: > >So for the year/book 6 team, I see- > > >Harry - Beaters - Captain in year 5 > >Ron - Beater > >Dean Thomas - Chaser > >Seamus Finnegan - Chaser > >Unkown - Chaser > >Unkown - Keeper (Hermine??? Pravati???...) > >Seeker - Colin Creevey > I think Harry will stay a seeker -- Krum is 18 and a seeker, and Harry's so good at it, I think his talents would be wasted somewhat as a beater (despite the fact that Wood said he might be a good beater). Besides, the Seeker and the Keeper are the *stars* of the team, right? And Harry Potter is the *star* of the book, so he'd pretty much have to be seeker or keeper, and seeker is just a "flashier" role, I think. And of course, he'd have to be captain, reluctantly elected by the rest of the team but proud of it when it happens. JMHO. And don't forget Ginny -- she'll be on the team too, with all those Quidditch loving brothers, she's bound to have had lots of practice growing up. I somehow don't see Hermione being on the team. She wasn't that excited about riding Buckbeak -- I think she's one of those who isn't that much interested in flying. Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 20:22:43 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 12:22:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Point of Order: "The Marauders" In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030307174456.00967460@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <20030307202243.69285.qmail@web40501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53393 GulPlum wondered why on earth we call MWPP the Marauders. My take on this is such: No, "The Marauders" is not canonically correct. But it is *sometimes* better to use than MWPP for a couple of reasons. 1. It just sounds cool. 2. Some people don't like Peter Pettigrew. M*W*PP includes him, and it becomes uncomfortable (to me, at least) to use MWPP when I'm talking about friendship and trust. I don't know why, but I have to make a conscious effort to stick that 'W' in there. 3. MWPP, while shorter, is harder to use as a noun, and, hence, work it into a nice-sounding sentence. 4. When one talks about 'the remaining Marauders' - Sirius and Remus, it's kinda strange to use MP. Of course, one could just say S&R, but then why don't we jsut call MWPP RPSJ instead? I know they aren't great reasons, and it does bug me when I see MWPP called 'Marauders,' but I think it's understandable. It might be easier is you think of the nickname 'Marauders' just as a fandom name for MWPP. Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Fri Mar 7 20:32:53 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 15:32:53 EST Subject: Grindlewald/reprise Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53395 Gregory Lynn asks; < What I wonder about this is the whole Grindelwald thing. It seems like it's a fact just pulled out of nowhere for no purpose. At least, to this point it does. But might there not be a larger purpose in there and if so what might it be? >> Tom Wall and I did a few posts on this back a month or so ago. I get the Digest, so I can't tell you their number. I thing that the 1945 date firmly ties the Grindlewald clue (if it is actually a clue to anything) into the Riddle plotline. From what we already know, the events which took place in 1945 are; 1. Tom Riddle finishes his 7th year at Hogwarts. 2. Tom Riddle, no longer an underage wizard, kills his father and grandparents in Little Hangleton, using the AK curse. 3. Tom Riddle drops off the face of the earth. 4. Albus Dumbledore defeats the Dark wizard Grindlewald. I find it wholey implausible that the fourth event is not related to the other three. And most probably had something to do with the third one. Even wizards do not casually "drop off the face of the earth". Add to this the observation that Riddle learned what he knew of the Dark Arts from *somewhere*. He was Muggle-raised and did not arrive at Hogwarts with any prior knowlege of the Wizarding world. We still do not know when the Dark Arts ceased to be a part of the Hogwarts curriculum, however, so that issue must remain unclear until we get further information. -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Fri Mar 7 20:32:57 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 15:32:57 EST Subject: Ron is Dumbledore? Message-ID: <1c2.642e373.2b9a5bf9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53396 Oh, I want to play! REDHEAD ALWAYS? Phoo! I give you; THROUGH A FIRE LONG A'DYING (Time-hopping Ron originaly undertakes gargantuan hoax. Assuming false identity, Ron exchanges life, of necessity, giving Albus Dumbledore's youthful idealism new greatness.) I'll build from previous suggestions, here; Albus Dumbledore is a reasonably good, if not extrordinary student, trusted enough to be granted the use of a time-turner. He isn't physically strong, however. Ron's unintentional time hop lands them together in an inclosed place which is ill lit and startles both into a mutual attempt to disarm each other. Albus's time-turner is broken. Both get nasty knocks on the head, Albus dies after muttering "thought you were me..." or some incoherant variation of such. Ron, whose brains have also been rattled, isn't thinking clearly, panics, has visions of Azkaban, sees that the resemblance between them is uncanily close - except for the eye color (Arthur really is decended from Aberforth, Ron came by the resemblance quite honestly) and decides to try to take the other boy's place until he can get home, whereupon he intends to confess all. He somehow conceals/disposes of the body, changes his eye color and stumbles off to the Hospital Wing with the broken time-turner saying he thought he met himself. He has no idea who the boy was, or where or when he has landed, and is appalled to find himself being addressed as "Dumbledore". The original Albus Dumbledore wasn't all that much better a student than Ron, but Ron, unlike Albus, has additional knowlege of spells and methods which haven't been developed yet. Aberforth and Albus's parents notice that he is "different" but put his slightly strange behavior and memory lapses it down to the head injury. He doesn't "look" all that different, and the difference is mostly a matter of expression. Ron deliberatly adopts the famed "slightly mad" act as a means of glossing this over. The understanding of spells he could not have learned from anyone in Albus's time greatly enhanced his reputation by the time he left Hogwarts, and he was able to turn this to good account in managing to convince Flamel to take him on as an aprentice and ultimately a partner. His rudimentary practical knowlege of Dragons, through Charlie, along with his work with Flamel, gave him the start on the discoveries of the 12 uses of their blood. He watches the beginning and the development of the social dynamics which have grown into the pureblood supremecist faction of Harry's day. He speaks out against it, and may have slowed it down, but is unable to stop it. He makes a strenuous effort to catch Riddle red-handed during Riddle's time at Hogwarts, but Riddle is too wily to be caught at anything that could shut him down, and after Riddle achieves his disaperarance, is out of Ron/Dumbledore's reach. At that point, Ron realizes that he doesn't dare take any action which will change what he knows of the events between this time and that of his own childhood for fear of sending his own history wildly out of joint, and possibly giving Riddle even more of an advantage than he will manage to make for himself. His entire term as Headmaster has been spent watching people make horrific mistakes and being forced to not only sit by and let them do it, but to actively assist them in it. The hardest thing he ever did was to resist snatching Scabbers/Pettigrew out of first-year Percy's hands and forcing himself to reveal himself as an Animagus. -JOdel (Who doesn't believe a word of it, and agrees that Bill is a better candidate, but is having fun) From artsylynda at aol.com Fri Mar 7 20:35:34 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 15:35:34 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore is Ron?/Why Harry?? Message-ID: <49.2be3d8da.2b9a5c96@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53397 All the "evidence" that's been presented to "prove" Dumbledore is Ron seems to me to be highly circumstantial. My primary objection to it is, though, that Dumbledore is the greatest wizard in the world and has been for many years. He's also a wonderful diplomat, with quite gracious manners. Dear Ron doesn't have a diplomatic bone in his body, and he's only getting "acceptable" marks in his classes. He hasn't shown any brillance at anything but chess -- despite his great loyalty and courage (except in the face of spiders and he DID overcome that fear enough to follow where Harry was leading). Ron is a follower, not a leader. Despite all the similarities, I can't see hot-tempered, short-fused, grudge-holding Ron evolving into sweet-natured, diplomatic, gracious, hugely powerful and wise Dumbledore even with 150 years of practice! I think Ron is terrific, but I think Dumbledore is simply Dumbledore. And somebody mentioned that Voldie would only know Ron as Harry's red-headed sidekick. Voldie's never seen Ron or Hermione in canon -- yet -- as far as I know (did I miss something?). He's concerned with adult wizards, mudbloods, Muggle lovers, and primarily Harry Potter. What I would like to know is, why Harry Potter???? Ever since he was a tiny baby, Voldie has been trying to kill him off. WHY?! Any ideas? Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Mar 7 20:48:06 2003 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 20:48:06 -0000 Subject: Percy the traitor? In-Reply-To: <20030307014204.34966.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53398 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, The Sparrow wrote: > '*You* don?t care about Ginny,' said Ron, whose ears where reddening now. '*You?re* just worried I?m going to mess up your chances of being Head Boy.' 'Five points from Gryffindor!' Percy said tersely, fingering his prefect badge,'And I hope it teaches you a lesson! No more *detective work*, or I?ll write to Mum!' Chamber of Secrets,chapter nine page 119. This quote and many before has tripped my brain into the theory that Percy is more than he seems, or at least deceptive. Note Percy doesn't jump to the defence that he *does* care about Ginny, just that Ron deserves points off for questioning him. > Me: Firstly he's just seen Ron coming out of not only a GIRLS toilet but also an OUT OF ORDER girls toilet. This is two things that Ron has done wrong, and also Percy is aware that Ron is in enough trouble over the car incident already without adding to it. When I was at school it was a prefects job to make sure that nobody misbehaved in the toilets (at least during break time). Percy's trying to do his job as a prefect only Ron as most young boys would sees it as personal I'd like to place my bets and say that Percy would have reacted the same if it had been any other boy that he'd caught in there ? basically he's doing his job. However Ron thinks that Percy should make an exception with him as he's his brother he can't see that Percy's given him the chance to walk away Scot free I bet that Percy would have taken points away straight away if it hadn't been Ron but Percy tries to let Ron off with a good talking to. However Ron then goes and not only throws it back in his face and questions his authority as a prefect but to add insult to injury he also questions whether Percy cares for Ginny (who I believe Percy likes the best out of his siblings). If you ask me I think Ron's lucky that it's not more that 5 points he loses. I believe it is clear that Percy does care for Ginny not only does he make her take some of Madam Pomfreys cold medicine when she looks like she's got a cold. Also when she is taken into the chamber after he's done his duty as the oldest Weasley brother there and Owled Mrs Weasley he is so upset that he hides away in his dorm. It is not his lack of feelings for Ginny that makes him hide away from the other Weasley brothers but is they way they make him feel like an outcast that makes him do this is does not feel that he can confide in them. Whereas with Ginny he trusts her enough to believe her when she says she won't tell the others about him and Penelope. The only other Weasley sibling we have seen in confide in is Bill when Bill asks him how the Cauldron report is going he says badly now compare this to what he tells his father at dinner. The Sparrow > Percy values his job a great deal, and Ron has said before (I don't know where the quote is) that he wouldn't be surprised if Percy sold them out if they broke the rules. > Me: This is Ron's point of view and Ron isn't exactly unbiased, as he's his brother. I know many siblings who don't really get on with each other (some of whose relationships have improved once they've left home). It is not uncommon for siblings to say bad things about each other and not really mean it. Percy has shown his care for Ron he went out into the lake in front of colleagues from the ministry to help Ron out of the lake ? he was anxious before the task began when Harry was late for the task. I don't believe that Percy is a death eater supporter either during the quiditch world cup he went out with his brothers and Dad and tried to help save the muggles from the DE's. This in my opinion shows bravery it confirmed for me that Percy did belong in Griffendor it also pleasantly surprised me. Percy like many of the Weasley's is stubborn and will stand up for what he believes in. His relationship with Ron is not great neither think that highly of each other at least not with each other knowledge however whilst Ron shows his dislike for Percy outside of Percy's view Percy has shown outside of Ron's (Ron was unconscious) view that he does care for him (the lake incident again). Percy doesn't have that great a relationship with his Dad, basically Percy couldn't get his Dad's attention and approval by being good 12 OWLS, headboy etc. but the twins and Ron get attention for doing bad thing i.e. driving the car, practical jokes (twins), going out of bonds to face danger (Ron with Harry). So Percy's grown fed up and if you can't get good attention what's wrong with bad attention ? at least it's attention. However Percy is very close to his Mum and his Mum has shown huge anti Fudge feelings, anti ?DE feelings and has shown huge care and pride in family values and sticking together as a family. Percy cares too much for her to want to hurt her feelings in going against the family and selling them out. Also he trusts her and her opinions. The Sparrow > Another quote at the start of PoA got me thinking too. > Me: POA in my opinion showed just how much Percy trusts respects and idealises Dumbledore. Percy is proud to be headboy and follow Dumbledore's orders if he did not respect Dumbledore's orders he would not be so proud at following them. They way he asks the questions of Dumbledore during the camp out in the great hall in POA shows respect Percy is eager to here what Dumbledore has to say. Also in PS CH7 after the sorting: "'Is he ? a bit mad?' he asked Percy uncertainly. `Mad?' said Percy airily. `He's a genius! Best wizard in the world! But he is a bit mad, yes.'" Here JKR has gone out of her way to show just how much Percy thinks of Dumbledore. I've said it before I believe that it is this respect for Dumbledore that will help keep Percy on the Right side. The Sparrow > I can't give you verbatim (my housemates busy with my copy!)but when Harry catches up with the Weasley's in the Leaky Cauldron Percy approaches Harry with a tone which JKR describes *as though he'd never met him*. > Me: I've always taken this scene to be Percy's way of telling Harry that he's headboy and that he's proud of it. I believe this is Percy's way of showing off. :-) I'd like to make a point that in PS it is the twins that make a point of introducing themselves to Harry and not Percy even though Percy knows that Harry's on the train this has always made me a bit suspicious of the twins. The Sparrow > Perhaps Percy is not who he seems to be..... > Me: No I believe that we can expect a lot more from Percy then we give him credit for. There is a lot more to him then we see, some of it only pokes through occasionally and sometimes you have to look carefully for it but I believe that JKR has given us several hints through Percy's behaviour that we should not necessarily take Ron's view point of Percy. Michelle From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Fri Mar 7 20:58:58 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 14:58:58 -0600 Subject: Grindelwald thoughts (was Re: Re: Dumbledore is Ron?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53399 Gregory Lynn mused: What I wonder about this is the whole Grindelwald thing. It seems like it's a fact just pulled out of nowhere for no purpose. At least, to this point it does. But might there not be a larger purpose in there and if so what might it be? I muse in return: I've heard quite a bit of postulation about this Grindelwald guy. The theory which sounds best to me of those I've heard is that Grindelwald, who was vanquished in 1945, had something to do with Hitler and/or Nazi Germany. Here's some support: The name "Grindelwald" sure sounds German to me. OK, it's not much, but it's a start. Add to that the fact that Grindelwald's fall coincides closely with the end of WWII, and the rumors of Hitler's fascination with the occult, and it's not too far a stretch to think that Hitler may have had a Dark Wizard or two on his staff to help him out in things magical and mystical. With the defeat of Grindelwald (his Minister of Dark Magic?) Hitler lost much of his magical support, resulting in a total surrender by May 9. Either that, or he wasn't involved at all. In any case, I'd sure like to learn more about it, if only because I'd like to learn more about Dumbledore's past. Hobbit-guy (who wonders if there's an official pronunciation for Grindelwald, but decides not to ask after the recent pronunciation... discussions) From seventhsqueal at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 19:09:58 2003 From: seventhsqueal at yahoo.com (SeventhSqueal) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 11:09:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Gryffindor Quidditch Team In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030307190958.92247.qmail@web10703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53400 Edward Post wrote: (ABRIDGED) What if Quidditch is an idea that overlays the entirety of the series? I note that in the Voldemort wars, one of the key defenses is the use of a secret KEEPER -- and the goalie/chief defender position in the game is a keeper. The seeker in the overall story is presumed to be, and probably is, Harry. But who knows? It would be fun if at the end of the series a recap of all the action can be made to parallel the game. JKR wouldn't have to hit us over the head with the comparisons. The subtler the better? SeventhSqueal responds: I think this is a fabulous theory! There will need to be a corresponding seeker for the other team that perhaps we don't know about or recognize. The beaters could be analogous to the tricky slight-of-hand plot distractions. How appropriate for Fred and George to be the team beaters! Very cool theory, you're probably right. I'm not completely comfortable with Pettigrew as the Snitch, since Harry let the Snitch go in GoF. ~SeventhSqueal There's no earthly way of knowing / Which direction we are going / There's no knowing where we're rowing / Or which way the river's flowing / Is it raining? / Is it snowing? / Is a hurricane a-blowing? / Not a speck of light is showing / So the danger must be growing / Are the fires of hell a-glowing? / Is the grisly reaper mowing? / Yes, the danger must be growing / 'Cause the rowers keep on rowing / And they're certainly not showing / Any signs that they are slowing! From the_stay_puft_marshmallow_man at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 19:25:05 2003 From: the_stay_puft_marshmallow_man at yahoo.com (Mr. Stay Puft) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 19:25:05 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore is Ron? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53401 Wonderful theory! More ammo (haven't seen this yet): In COS, when Harry falls into Riddle's Diary (Chapter 13), he glimpses a 50-year younger Dumbledore, who is described as having "sweeping AUBURN hair". Clearly, Dumbledore is a REDHEAD. It also clears up the mystery of this line from COS, Chapter 14 "For a second, Harry was almost sure Dumbledore's eyes flickered toward the corner where he & Ron stood hidden." (which was played significantly more overtly by Mr. Harris in the movie version.) Look forward to hearing more evidence & speculation on this theory! From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 21:35:50 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 13:35:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:The Gryffindor Quidditch Team In-Reply-To: <20030307190958.92247.qmail@web10703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030307213550.50910.qmail@web40510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53402 SeventhSqueal wrote: Edward Post wrote: (ABRIDGED) What if Quidditch is an idea that overlays the entirety of the series? The seeker in the overall story is presumed to be, and probably is, Harry. But who knows? It would be fun if at the end of the series a recap of all the action can be made to parallel the game. JKR wouldn't have to hit us over the head with the comparisons. The subtler the better? SeventhSqueal responds: I think this is a fabulous theory! I'm not completely comfortable with Pettigrew as the Snitch, since Harry let the Snitch go in GoF. Me now: Well, Harry doesn't really let Pettigrew go in GoF. I think you might have meant PoA when Harry told Sirius and Lupin not to kill Pettigrew. But, that is interesting because PoA is the first time Harry fails to capture the snitch;) I think that's an interesting support for Quidditch paralleling the story:) ~Kathryn --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 21:51:17 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 13:51:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dumbledore is Ron? In-Reply-To: <49.2be3d8da.2b9a5c96@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030307215117.28134.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53403 --- Jodel wrote: > REDHEAD ALWAYS? Phoo! I give you; > > THROUGH A FIRE LONG A'DYING > (Time-hopping Ron originaly undertakes gargantuan hoax. Assuming false > identity, Ron exchanges life, of necessity, giving Albus Dumbledore's > youthful idealism new greatness.) *sniffs* And I was so proud of my first acronym too... > [snips bits of the theory for space] Ron, whose brains have also been > rattled, isn't thinking clearly, panics, has > visions of Azkaban, sees that the resemblance between them is uncanily > close > - except for the eye color (Arthur really is decended from Aberforth, Ron > came by the resemblance quite honestly) and decides to try to take the > other boy's place until he can get home, whereupon he intends to confess > all. Hrm. I don't really care for this twist to the theory. It seems a little too harsh and calculating on poor Ron's part. I also dislike randomly granting Time Turners to students, as it was such an exception for Hermione, the *best* student in the year. (If Albus was "merely good", I don't see the exception being made.) I have to cast my vote with GulPlum's version. > His rudimentary practical > knowlege of Dragons, through Charlie, along with his work with Flamel, > gave him the start on the discoveries of the 12 uses of their blood. Well, and the fact that he probably learnt them in class by now. :) --- Lynda wrote: > All the "evidence" that's been presented to "prove" Dumbledore is Ron > seems to me to be highly circumstantial. Well of course it is! That's half the fun. ;) Most of us aren't really expecting to see this show up in the book, but it's amusing. *g* > My primary objection to it is, though, > that Dumbledore is the greatest wizard in the world and has been for > many years. He's also a wonderful diplomat, with quite gracious manners. > Dear Ron doesn't have a diplomatic bone in his body, and he's only > getting "acceptable" marks in his classes. I would think that 130 years of practice, not to mention knowledge of over a century's worth of magical developments, would certainly help him out there. He has the advantage of knowing how things already happened, and also knew Dumbledore for several years to pattern his behavior off of what he remembered. In addition, he'd only really have a problem of recognition once his younger self was born, and by then he would be 140 years old! No problems there. :) As long as Dumbledore doesn't pull out baby pictures to show the Trio, I don't see recognition as a problem. Andrea, still promoting REDHEAD ALWAYS ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From ecprincess78 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 21:59:31 2003 From: ecprincess78 at yahoo.com (ecprincess78) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 21:59:31 -0000 Subject: The Gryffindor Quidditch Team In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53404 I have been following this thread and forebearing to post this in case someone else has already said it, and that said, I apologize if I missed it. I have noticed these references of "there are only three BOYS in Harry's year, so who will play Quidditch for Griffindor?" (pardon the lack of actual post) Why are only the boys available for speculation? I know that some posters have presented girls, but there are many of these . Granted, most of the girls that we know in Griffindor don't exactly seem the type, but Hermione and Ginny are the only ones of whom we have learned any real depth. Maybe we will learn that Parvati or Lavender are really quite athletic, or we'll meet someone that hasn't yet been mentioned. Happy Weekend! "Leah" From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 23:09:39 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 23:09:39 -0000 Subject: Point of Order: "The Marauders" In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030307174456.00967460@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53405 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, GulPlum wrote: > What I'm talking about is collectively calling James Potter, > Sirius Black, Peter Pettigrew and Remus Lupin "The Marauders", and > I am seriously, honestly, curious why anyone would want to call > them that. I get a bit of a nervous twitch every time I see the > term and I'd like to explain why. > > OK, the reason I can imagine most people would want to do so is > because of the name of "The Marauder's Map". [snipped stuff about apostrophes] > What's so important about that little apostrophe? Well, at various > points in my life I've worked in the tourism industry and have > become acquainted with the term "Visitor's Map/Plan", as I assume > have most people, as visitors if not authors or distributors. Were > these maps written by visitors (or even one visitor)? No, of > course not. They were written by people who knew what they were > talking about *for the benefit* of Visitors (or a single Visitor > for each map). Yes, those maps are for the benefit of Visitors (plural--I doubt any of those were for the benefit of a single Visitor). The title of the map clearly indicates that it is for the benefit of Marauders (plural). And who benefited from the existence of the map? Sirius, James et al. If the map had been labeled, "For the use of the skilled Marauder," (singular) one could also assume that this meant Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs--all four of them. This construction and the apostrophe is not, as you noted in your citation of "Visitor's," indicative of there being only one Marauder. The four of them created the map for their own use. They titled it "The Marauder's Map." This seems to be a blatant bit of self- labeling, IMHO. I don't see how one can look at this and NOT assume that that is a good moniker for the group. I can see how it might have been thought up, as well. Wolves have been traditionally labeled "marauders." On this web page: http://www.tbbw.com/legends.html one may find the following passage: Myth of the Marauder Throughout the ages, even in the prehistoric world, whilst his howling athwart the stillness of nature and night struck fear into the heart of primaeval man crouching far back in the dark retreat of some cold rough cave; further sown the centuries when he was known as the marauder of the shepherd's grazing flocks... And in Chapter two of Jack London's novel "White Fang," for instance, this passage appears: "...being a sheep-dog, her instinctive fear of the Wild, and especially of the wolf, was unusually keen. White Fang was to her a wolf, the hereditary marauder who had preyed upon her flocks from the time sheep were first herded and guarded by some dim ancestor of hers." I found dozens and dozens of places on the web where "marauder" and "wolf" appear on the same page, in similar contexts (although many pages are military in nature, evidently). Clearly, then, Remus would have been considered the chief candidate to be considered a "marauder," but it is no leap of logic to conclude that his furtive full-moon companions, breaking all kinds of school rules and wizarding laws along the way, could also have considered themselves to be "honorary" marauders at these times. > I take the name of the Marauder's Map in an analogous sense. > Besides, I can't imagine the authors calling > themselves "Marauders", which has zero positive connotations (at > least in my mind, as a native speaker of British English). This is where you need to think like a teenage boy. I believe they used it on the map PRECISELY because it has negative connotations. I believe they wanted to think of themselves as "bad." Dangerous. (Lord knows, they were both, technically--after all, Snape almost died.) They used codenames, but one could also think of these as "gang" names. Their use of the word "marauder" on the map shows their youthful bravado; I believe it was a way for them to strut (even if it was only amongst themselves) and appear to be big and bad. They were probably impressive to themselves, anyway. > Furthermore, I don't see "a plunderer; one who pillages" (my > dictionary's definition) fits the foursome. They were in search of > adventure rather than thievery. The definition fits Gred & Forge > pretty well, though (they use the Map to get food from the > kitchens and party supplies from Honeydukes). I think it would be safe to assume that James used his Invisibility Cloak and the map for this as well. (I can't recall right now whether a reference to that is in canon, so I'll just say that this is my impression.) The twins didn't have a cloak, so they didn't have that advantage. Harry, like his dad, has both of these tools, and who frequently treats him as though he's a criminal because of it? Snape, the almost-victim of Lupin. Is it any wonder he seems to think Harry is a chip off the old block in the worst possible way? > I don't remember whether it was here or in some other forum, but > someone once said "well, they had to call themselves *something*". > As it happens, 1) well, no they didn't. Harry, Ron and Hermione, > who appear just as closely allied to each other in their > adventures, don't have a "gang name". > 2) they *do* call themselves something: in what I consider a > typical dig at pomposity (and the names of British law firms), > they call themselves Messrs. Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs. > > The thing is, the two members of the foursome who've talked about > those days, Remus and Sirius, have never, ever, referred to > themselves as "The Marauders", but they both use their aliases > when referring to their schooldays. Yes, but it's clear from the title on the map that they THOUGHT of themselves as rough-and-tough "marauders" when they were young, whether they ever used that term for themselves aloud. And even if they did, I would never dream that they'd want to say that in front of Harry, Ron and Hermione. It's embarrassing to admit to the next generation the silly games and strutting in which you engaged in your own youth. I don't see where Remus and Sirius not using this title for themselves is relevant, anyway. When discussing the books, we frequently refer to Harry, Ron and Hermione not as HRH, usually, but as "the Trio." It is an externally-applied label used for convenience. Nowhere in the books are they called this. Snape does once call them "the dream team" (very snidely) and some folks refer to them that way instead. Frankly, given the creators and original users of the map, there's a lot more support in canon for referring to Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs (in a litarary analysis) by the collective external label of "the Marauders" than there is support for calling Harry, Ron and Hermione "the Trio," numerically accurate though it is. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From hp_lexicon at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 00:24:10 2003 From: hp_lexicon at yahoo.com (hp_lexicon) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 00:24:10 -0000 Subject: Point of Order: "The Marauders" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53406 Regardless of whether anyone thinks the name "Marauders" is a fitting one for James, Sirius, Peter, and Remus, that fact is that there is no evidence whatsoever that they were ever called that. The name of the map can't be considered proof of anything--in fact, the most reasonable way of looking at the title of the map is that it doesn't refer to more than one person and hence DOESN'T refer to the group. This is, pure and simple, a fan invention. If we want to call them something, we could call them the "little gang," since they are actually called that in PA. But that's not a very exciting title. Also, clearly McGonagall didn't mean that to be an actual name for the group. It doesn't make sense from the reference. Note, however, that calling them The Marauders because of the title of the map makes no more sense than calling them "The Little Gang" because McGonagall did. In fact, it makes a lot less sense. It is, however, a fan convention, and it is unstoppable. For all intents and purposes, that's what they're called. I have to catch myself from using that term in the Lexicon, even though you'd think it shouldn't be a problem for me. After all, I get that same shiver of dismay whenever I read it, what with my manic obsession with canonicity and all. It's just so darn handy to have a nice quick name for that group that it's hard to get by without using it. And what does it hurt, really? We all know what we're talking about. I think we can all agree that the books don't support using that term. We can also agree that saying "James, Sirius, Peter, and Remus" all the time is cumbersome and JSPR isn't as much fun. So Marauders it is. Now we need to come up with a nice, simple name for HRH that has some tenuous connection to the books. That would be handy too. Then I can try to keep myself from using that in the Lexicon too. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Mar 8 00:31:45 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 00:31:45 -0000 Subject: Point of Order: "The Marauders" In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030307174456.00967460@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53407 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, GulPlum wrote: > What I'm talking about is collectively calling James Potter, Sirius Black, Peter Pettigrew and Remus Lupin "The Marauders", and I am seriously, honestly, curious why anyone would want to call them that. I get a bit of a nervous twitch every time I see the term and I'd like to explain why. > > OK, the reason I can imagine most people would want to do so is because of the name of "The Marauder's Map". I really, really, don't want to repeat the rant about apostrophe abuse in general which started off a huge debate on the OT-Chatter list recently, but there is an apostrophe in "Marauder's", and its meaning is clear: there is *one* "Marauder". << It seems to me you undermine your own argument here. Since Apostrophe Abuse is so common, couldn't the, er, parties in question have perpetrated some themselves? It's clear they did want to think of themselves as bad boys. The incantation which activates the Map is, "I solemnly swear that I am up to no good." According to Dumbledore, James did indulge in some plundering: "your father used [the invisibility cloak] mainly for sneaking off to the kitchens to steal food when he was here." Pippin From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 00:59:22 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 00:59:22 -0000 Subject: The Gryffindor Quidditch Team In-Reply-To: <20030307213550.50910.qmail@web40510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53408 > Edward Post wrote: > (ABRIDGED) > > What if Quidditch is an idea that overlays the entirety of the > series? > > The seeker in the overall story is presumed to be, and probably is, > Harry. But who knows? > > SeventhSqueal responds: > > I think this is a fabulous theory! > I'm not completely comfortable with Pettigrew as the Snitch, since > Harry let the Snitch go in GoF. > > Kathryn added: > Well, Harry doesn't really let Pettigrew go in GoF. I think you > might have meant PoA when Harry told Sirius and Lupin not to kill > Pettigrew. But, that is interesting because PoA is the first time > Harry fails to capture the snitch;) My turn: I find this idea intriguing. Are we saying that quidditch as a concept mirrors the plotline, that the plotline itself could be portrayed as a quidditch game, that the quidditch games in the books mirror the plot, or a combination of the above? (Very subtle difference, I know...) The first and third are the easiest to theorize - every parallel found between quidditch, the matches, and the HP books (such as Harry not catching the snitch and not killing Pettigrew in PoA) could be used as evidence. The second is more difficult, as we would have to "cast" two quidditch teams - one for good, one for evil, as well as potentially having people play the roles of the balls, snitch, etc. (Captains Dumbledore and Voldemort?) Thus, Harry could be the seeker, but there would also be a seeker for the evil team. I'm not currently familiar enough with quidditch to expound much further on these possibilities. How do you think Krum and his quidditch abilities might play into this? Bagman's and James' talents may also be worth pondering. And what should we make of the Hogwarts quidditch season being cancelled in GoF? Here's something else that might be interesting to consider: in the aforementioned PoA quidditch match, Hufflepuff Cedric (captain and seeker) is the one who captures the snitch. PoA also shows Harry exemplifying Hufflepuff qualities when he doesn't advocate killing Pettigrew. In fact, much of PoA is about friendship and loyalty issues - MWPP, Buckbeak, and especially Black. (The WW took Pettigrew's accusation as fact, ignoring Black's previous and lengthy loyalty to the Potter family, Black travels back to Hogwarts to protect Harry but doesn't specifically have revenge in mind, etc.) Then, in GoF, Cedric is killed by Voldemort. According to Dumbledore, "Cedric was a person who exemplified many of the qualities that distinguish Hufflepuff house. He was a good and loyal friend, a hard worker, he valued fair play" (US Hardcover GoF, page 721-2.) Voldemort's return marks a shaky future for the WW, one in which the first casualties may be people's Hufflepuff qualities. Later Dumbledore says "in light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. LV's gift for spreading dischord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust" (723). He might as well be saying 'the only way to fight LV is to get in touch with your inner-Hufflepuff.' So I guess I'm saying that Voldemort killing Cedric was not part of LV's master plan - an unintended consequence. And similarly, LV's rise to power unintentionally drains the WW of its Hufflepuff qualities. Besides the similarities I point out, I'm not sure how this applies to the mix, but I thought it would make an interesting addition. - Nobody's Rib From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 02:17:58 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 02:17:58 -0000 Subject: Point of Order: "The Marauders" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53409 I'm an editor and have a perverse obsession with punctuation and grammar, so I couldn't help but throw in my two cents here. GulPlum wrote:: > > What I'm talking about is collectively calling James Potter, > Sirius Black, Peter Pettigrew and Remus Lupin "The > Marauders", and I am seriously, honestly, curious why anyone > would want to call them that. I get a bit of a nervous twitch > every time I see the term and I'd like to explain why. > > OK, the reason I can imagine most people would want to do so > is because of the name of "The Marauder's Map". I really, really, > don't want to repeat the rant about apostrophe abuse in general > which started off a huge debate on the OT-Chatter list recently, > but there is an apostrophe in "Marauder's", and its meaning is > clear: there is *one* "Marauder". << I have also always felt the apostrophe in "Marauder's" has a clear meaning: indication of possession. "The Marauder's Map" is a map that is owned by a marauder. This suggests a singular marauder, however "Messrs. Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs, Purveyors of Aids to Magical Mischief Makers, are proud to present The Marauder's Map" (US Hardcover PoA, page 192), and nit-picking suggests that if MWPP jointly provided the map, they also jointly owned the map. The apostrophe indicates the map's owner is a marauder, MWPP had joint ownership of the map, and thus all four could be called "marauders." Hmmm... but then it should logically follow that the term "the marauders" refers to the group of people who have owned the map, and thus Fred, George, and Harry must also be granted membership. (And, prior to this post, I don't think I would have ever assumed someone typing "the marauders" indicated MWPPFGH.) Pippin pointed out: > Since Apostrophe Abuse is so common, couldn't the, er, parties in > question have perpetrated some themselves? It's clear they did > want to think of themselves as bad boys. The incantation which > activates the Map is, "I solemnly swear that I am up to no good." I'd like to be on board here, but I can only assume that the map's creators would have double checked their punctuation. Then again, perhaps they were too busy being "up to no good." In reference to "marauder" being a negative term: Like it or not, this is what MWPP chose to name their map. It was their desire to use this word, regardless of (or perhaps because of) its connotations, and I for one do not wish to challenge their decision. And Pippin also pointed out: > According to Dumbledore, James did indulge in some > plundering: "your father used [the invisibility cloak] mainly for > sneaking off to the kitchens to steal food when he was here." It seems we can either (1) play it safe and *only* use MWPP in reference to Lupin, Pettigrew, Black, and James or (2) recognize that (HP fans') popular usage can change what is to be considered correct. (Language is malleable, and we no longer speak the Queen's English. After all, "ain't" is now in the dictionary, as is Homer Simpson's "Do'h!". Why not "the marauders" as well?) (I hate to imagine anyone cringing when reading my posts, so, unless this issue is resolved to the contrary, in future posts I will omit personal usage of "the marauders" and opt for "MWPP"...) - Nobody's Rib, who promises to never type MWPPFGH in reference to all who have owned The Marauder's Map From editor at texas.net Sat Mar 8 02:53:06 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 20:53:06 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Point of Order: "The Marauders" References: <4.2.0.58.20030307174456.00967460@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <002e01c2e51d$d9e263a0$356463d1@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53410 GulPlum wrote *ten* paragraphs arguing the possible rationales, viewpoints, grammatical reasoning, meaning, and interpretations of the apostrophe placement in "Marauder's Map" and its repercussions on the canon validity of the use of "marauders" to collectively refer to James, Sirius, Remus, and Peter. None of it was drivel. All of it was valid. Every bit of it is anal in the extreme. I respect that in a person. My boy, if you were not a L.O.O.N. before, you are now. Welcome. ~Amandageist From hp at plum.cream.org Sat Mar 8 03:37:58 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 03:37:58 +0000 Subject: Point of Order: "The Marauders" In-Reply-To: <20030307202243.69285.qmail@web40501.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4.2.0.58.20030307174456.00967460@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030308012525.0096feb0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53411 OK, several replies in one; I suspect that this post may (again) come across as a lot more strident than I intend it to be, but I'm not entirely sure how I can portray the strength of my feelings on this issue otherwise. I'm not trying to slam anyone down or belittle them or their PoV, but I do disagree with most of the comments quite fundamentally. Maria's points: >No, "The Marauders" is not canonically correct. But it is *sometimes* >better to use than MWPP for a couple of reasons. > >1. It just sounds cool. It doesn't to me. It actually annoys me. As, indeed, does the word "cool" (other than in inverted commas). But then that's a generational thing, so I'm prepared to give the word a lot of leeway. >2. Some people don't like Peter Pettigrew. M*W*PP includes him, and it >becomes uncomfortable (to me, at least) to use MWPP when I'm talking about >friendship and trust. I don't know why, but I have to make a conscious >effort to stick that 'W' in there. Sorry, but he was an integral part of the foursome, and his betrayal of their friendship makes it even more important to include him in that. I really don't see how this justifies the use of "Marauders" as an alternative anyway, because that's still a reference to the foursome. >3. MWPP, while shorter, is harder to use as a noun, and, hence, work it >into a nice-sounding sentence. Considering some of the awfully-constructed sentences I've seen on this list, please forgive me for expressing surprise at the notion that a four-letter acronym can destroy a "nice sounding sentence". >4. When one talks about 'the remaining Marauders' - Sirius and Remus, it's >kinda strange to use MP. Of course, one could just say S&R, but then why >don't we jsut call MWPP RPSJ instead? As I said in my original post, I have no objection to rational abbreviations or acronyms. Referring to the foursome as the "Marauders" is, as Mr Spock would put it, both irrational and illogical. As I said originally, it also betrays a poor grasp of the English language which does not fit in with the ideals of in-depth analysis for which the members of this list as a community pride themselves (and rightfully so). >It might be easier is you think of the nickname 'Marauders' just as a >fandom name for MWPP. I'm perfectly aware of that. That is probably the main reason why it annoys me so much. This list places "canonicity" in such high regard for a reason. Whenever anyone confuses their book canon with the stuff on the silver screen, they are rightfully (and sometimes righteously) shot down. Why do we therefore accept fanon ingression? Lexicon Steve made similar points: >It's just so darn handy to have a nice quick name for that group that it's >hard to get by without using it. And what does it hurt, really? We all >know what we're talking about. I think we can all agree that the books >don't support using that term. We can also agree that saying "James, >Sirius, Peter, and Remus" all >the time is cumbersome and JSPR isn't as much fun. So Marauders it is. Sorry, but I don't agree with anything which condones sloppy thought processes (and sloppy English) in the midst of intelligent (and often intellectual) debate. I may well be tilting at windmills, but I have no reason at this stage to lose hope in encouraging people to *think*. >Now we need to come up with a nice, simple name for HRH that has >some tenuous connection to the books. That would be handy too. Then >I can try to keep myself from using that in the Lexicon too. HRH is a typically internetty acronym which is rational, logical and clear. "The Trio" is a frequently used term as well which is descriptive and although not used in canon, is obvious and (one of my objections) is not based on a *mis-reading* (or bad understanding) of canon. >If we want to call them something, we could call them the "little gang," >since they are actually called that in PA. But that's not a very exciting >title. Also, clearly McGonagall didn't mean that to be an actual name for >the group. It doesn't make sense from the reference. Note, however, that >calling them The Marauders because of the title of the map makes no more >sense than calling them "The Little Gang" because McGonagall did. In fact, >it makes a lot less >sense. It was a generic description, not a name. The context was "Black and Potter. Ringleaders of their little gang" (p. 152, smack in the middle of the chapter entitled er... "The Marauder's Map"). Using it as a name is pointless, meaningless and ultimately without merit. The thing is, the "gang" *did* have a name, however cumbersome, and *that* should be the basis of its acronym. That is the basis of my argument. Pippin added: >It seems to me you undermine your own argument here. Since Apostrophe >Abuse is so common, couldn't the, er, parties in question have perpetrated >some themselves? It's clear they did want to think of themselves as bad >boys. The incantation which activates the Map is, "I solemnly swear that I >am up to no good." As it happens, no, I don't think that the parties in question would have perpetrated Crimes Against Apostrophes. :-) They have a clear understanding of formal English which they use to great comic effect both in the heading on the Map and in their replies to Snape later on. In any case, they're of a generation which more than likely would have been taught proper use of English punctuation, a skill which appears to have lost its value, as evidenced in some respects by this very topic. Last but by no means least, Barb made a very long, and IMO untypically bizarrely-argued post. I apologise for my slightly facetious tone (commenting only on her first paragraph) because the first sentence of her comments shocked me out of my socks: >The title of the map clearly indicates that it is for the benefit of >Marauders (plural). Sorry, but how can "Marauder's" be a plural? And especially "clearly" a plural? My mind is reeling thinking about the linguistic gymnastics required to draw such a conclusion. Ah... Barb then provides a gymnastic display worthy of Olga Korbutt: >And who benefited from the existence of the map? Sirius, James et al. If >the map had been labeled, "For the use of the skilled Marauder," >(singular) one could also assume that this meant Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot >and Prongs--all four of them. This construction and the apostrophe is >not, as you noted in your citation of "Visitor's," indicative of there >being only one Marauder. Sorry, Barb, but aren't you being just a touch disingenuous? You missed one important element from the Map's heading. I missed it in my previous post as well; this was meant to have been part of my argument, but I forgot to mention it, although it was the Map's full heading which started me wondering something about the Map long before I'd seen "The Marauders" as a term for the foursome. The full heading/title is: "Messrs. Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs Purveyors of Aids to Magical Mischief-Makers are proud to present THE MARAUDER'S MAP" Hmmm.... *Purveyors*... I can't be bothered to look up a dictionary definition, but off the top of my head, I'd suggest "suppliers" as a synonym. The thing is, Messrs. M,W,P&P *supply* these aids, perhaps for money (a la Gred & Forge), or perhaps just for kicks (as do Gred & Forge with some of their products). This extremely (mock) formal way of heading the Map strikes me as completely out of place if the map is solely for their own use. If it's not designed for anyone else's use, why waste space with that verbose introduction? The only "clear" indication *I* get from the structure and language is that this map is specifically designed *other* than for the authors' use. A Marauder's. From where do you get "skilled Marauder"? It strikes me that this is an aid for the *unskilled* Marauder. Indeed, Gred & Forge, who by the time they give Harry the Map are very much "skilled", say categorically that his need for the Map, as a "beginner" (my word, not canon's), is greater than theirs. Furthermore, Fred specifically refers to M,W,P&P as "noble men, working tirelessly to help a new generation of lawbreakers". This brings me to an issue not relevant to this particular discussion... All of this strikes me as a powerful indicator that there are *other* copies of the Map around. Where are they? Were they all found and destroyed, or are there scraps of parchment around Hogwarts with old pieces of homework scribbled on them, whose hidden attributes were never discovered? What other "Aids to Magical Mischief-Makers" did they produce? And where are *they*? I'm sure that a raid on Filch's filing cabinet is yet to come and will provide several more M,W,P&P products... On that point, I think I'll finish. Again, I apologise if anyone (especially the authors of the posts to which I'm responding) feels personally offended by my tone or comments, but I really do feel very strongly about this issue and I may have got a little carried away. I don't mean to be personal and I certainly respect the views of everyone to whom I responded even if I may fundamentally disagree with them on their approach to this issue. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who's just noticed it's gone 3.30am and decides it's way past his bedtime. From hp at plum.cream.org Sat Mar 8 03:49:13 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 03:49:13 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Point of Order: "The Marauders" In-Reply-To: <002e01c2e51d$d9e263a0$356463d1@texas.net> References: <4.2.0.58.20030307174456.00967460@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030308034315.00971b80@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53412 Amanda Geist wrote a consise summary of the LOONiness of my previous post, and finished: >None of it was drivel. All of it was valid. Every bit of it is anal in the >extreme. I respect that in a person. Thanks, Amanda. However, you've not yet seen my reply to the various posts and the four paragraphs of further arguments. :-) Now, *they* were anal! >My boy, if you were not a L.O.O.N. before, you are now. Welcome. Is there a membership fee payable? I'm poor, you know. :-) -- GulPlum AKA Richard, polishing up his imaginary LOON badge before the real one arrives and going to bed happy :-) From stix4141 at hotmail.com Sat Mar 8 04:28:12 2003 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 04:28:12 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore is Ron? and Hermione is... In-Reply-To: <20030307215117.28134.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53413 I was thinking about REDHEAD ALWAYS and how it's really the template for the Ron!Dumbledore idea, whereas theories like THROUGH A FIRE LONG A'DYING might be an offshoot of it. I have an offshoot. Maybe Hermione isn't McGonagall--that one never sat with me. Maybe because I always thought that McGonagall was something of a mentor to Hermione. (Mentoring yourself? That's so weird, it's like cheating or something.) But what if it's another member of the Old Crowd? Arabella Figg! We don't know anything about her, so there's no canon support for this or anything... yet. She's presumably a witch living in secret, so she would have to know how to pass herself off as a muggle (unlike poor Archie). Cheers! -stickbook who realizes there are probably more parallels but whose brain is tired (but happy) from bouncing REDHEAD ALWAYS around all day. From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 05:26:39 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 21:26:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Quidditch as Metaphor (was) The Gryffindor Quidditch Team Message-ID: <20030308052639.4297.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53414 Mr. Ed wrote, in part: > What if Quidditch is an idea that > overlays the entirety of the series? > > I first asked myself that when > rereading CoS -- in particular in the > scene where Harry is explaining > Quidditch to Colin. I don't have the > book, but Harry explains how the game > ends when the Seeker catches the golden > Snitch. Yes, this is my reading of the main narrative function of Quidditch too; the Quidditch positions had struck me as being reminiscent of archetypes when first I read of them. JKR seems to be making this metaphor between sport and hero's journey with a very light touch though, and as it is, I am not convinced that JKR has already presented us with all that she has to say about the similarities between playing the Game of Quidditch and being the Hero of your own Life. Of course, it's entirely possible that I've overlooked the subtle hints. I have already posted that I suspect JKR to be performing sleights of hand every time she...uhm...BANGS. And in the excitement that are Quidditch games, we're likely to be distracted from seeing every parallel that exist between life and sportwell, at least on initial readings and with canon still incomplete. Quidditch and its strategies may very well resonate with strength once we know how this series end. > Is Pettigrew the "golden snitch"? So far: > 1) Pettigrew's main contribution to the > story is having RATTED on the Potters to > Voldemort, i.e., he SNITCHED on them; and > 2) how do know that Ron's early attempt > at magic (" . . . butter mellow, turn > this ugly fat rat yellow") was a complete > failure? Pettigrew very well may be the Snitch in this metaphor and Ron trying to turn him yellow, the color of gold, may indeed be a bit of a punchline. > Maybe the action in the story > will reach its conclusion when Pettigrew > is caught in a way that has some finality? I too can see this happening. > I note that in the Voldemort wars, one > of the key defenses is the use of a > secret KEEPER -- and the goalie/chief > defender position in the game is a > keeper. > > The seeker in the overall story is > presumed to be, and probably is, > Harry. But who knows? I see these parallels too and am on the lookout for the foils for the Chaser and the Beater. I haven't come up with any parallels yetanyone? > I'm sure there are more ways creative > people could turn much of the story > into an extended game of (or series > of games of) Quidditch. > > It would be fun if at the end of the > series a recap of all the action can > be made to parallel the game. JKR > wouldn't have to hit us over the head > with the comparisons. The subtler > the better? I see at least one aspect of the plot to be in parallel with the sport. Note that one of the strategies for winning the Quidditch Cup involves NOT catching the Snitch...not ending the game...until the Chasers have accumulated enough points to win the game AND the tournament. This may parallel Harry having to hold himself back from preventing Peter's escape during the Time-Turner sequence in PoA and to some extent his holding back his desire for revenge in showing mercy to his parents' murderer. Future events may prove that if Harry had caught Peter or allowed him to be killed in PoA, then Harry would have won the battle but not the war. We also see an interesting variation on this theme during the QWC in GoF. When winning the 'war' becomes seemingly impossible, Krum opted to win SOMEthing by catching the Snitch. He cut his team's losses so that if they had to lose, they lost by a smaller margin. Petra a n :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From lilpurplealdy at netscape.net Sat Mar 8 05:51:40 2003 From: lilpurplealdy at netscape.net (Juliet) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 05:51:40 -0000 Subject: Hearing Voices- NOT Imagined, With A Side Question About Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53415 Greicy: > Um....could someone help me out here. I can't remember what is > AFAWK and I would really like to know about these Torment! > Ron/Hermione theories Juliet wrote about. AFAWK is, I believe, As Far As We Know. And I just meant by Torment (ed! I meant ed...but..typo..)Ron/Hermione is that anyone that may have a theory about Ron or Hermione harboring some dark secret, something that a Dementor would pull up as a tormenting memory. ~Aldrea From urbana at charter.net Sat Mar 8 06:15:16 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne R Urbanski) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 00:15:16 -0600 Subject: FILK: I Am Dumbledore Message-ID: <4.2.2.20030308001427.00cebda0@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 53416 To the tune of I'm My Own Grandpa http://users.cis.net/sammy/grandpa.htm Dedicated to the perpetrators of REDHEAD ALWAYS, who have convinced themselves that Ron is/was/ and/or will be Dumbledore. Ron, Harry and Hermione explain it all .. ;-) RON: It sounds funny, I know, but it really is so, I am Dumbledore I am Dumbledore I am Dumbledore It sounds funny, I know, but it really is so, I am Dumbledore Although I'm only fifteen, I am also one-fifty For a few years in the future, I'll go back so I can see Just what a boy like me can do to help his friend Harry So I'll pilfer the Time Turner without telling Her-mi-nee I really only wanted to go back to Riddle's house To help Harry warn Tom's granddad that his grandson is a louse But somehow I went back too far and landed on my head On top of the real Dumbledore and that's how he got dead HARRY & HERMIONE So now he's Dumbledore Now he's Dumbledore It seems funny, we know, but it really is so, Ron is Dumbledore RON I wondered how I'd pass myself off to his family But Albus was a redhead too, a redhead just like me And both of us were tall and thin and had a crooked nose So turning into Dumbledore was easy, I suppose I brought with me my knowledge of more modern charms and spells Which helped me gain apprenticeship with Nicholas Flamel He taught me alchemy and that great knowledge I did hone Until, one day, we invented the Philosopher's Stone At Hogwarts School I taught both Molly and Arthur Weasley Back before they got married and gave birth to little me It kind of freaked me out when they got married, for I knew That one day I would be both their son and Headmaster too So now when I see Albus I must ask, "Is that guy me?" The guy with bright blue eyes and half-moon spectacles, you see, Or could I really be just Ron, young Harry's truest friend? I guess we really can't be sure till Harry's saga ends. HARRY & HERMIONE So Ron is Dumbledore Ron is Dumbledore It seems funny, we know, but some think that it's so, That Ron is Dumbledore RON I am Dumbledore... Or am I Dumbledore? It's a theory that grows like Pinocchio's nose I am Dumbledore * * * * * Anne U (OYYYY!! My head *still* hurts) "Ah, music ... A magic beyond all we do here!" - Albus Dumbledore, "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" "Anyone could be the one to change your life" -- Monte Montgomery http://www.montemontgomery.com From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Mar 8 06:59:21 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 06:59:21 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?So_That_I_Wasn=92t__Alone_(filk)?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53417 In which Lupin shows that he can outdo Catherine Z-J on the dance floor So That I Wasn't Alone (PoA, Chap. 18-19) To the tune of I Can't Do It Alone, from Chicago (film version) Dedicated to Gail, my fellow Maven THE SCENE: The Shrieking Shack. LUPIN's biographical account of his lycanthropy is rudely interrupted by SEVERUS SNAPE LUPIN When I was a boy a werewolf gave me a bite When I was a boy a werewolf did not have rights `Cause I was a wolf, Hogwarts was a distant dream But Dumbledore said that werewolves should be mainstreamed And with the moon of course, When it waxed I much was taxed So with the lunar phase Each 30 days I'm sent to the Shrieking Shack Hear this. Now we had Animagic learned by three people It was great with three people. First he'd... (LUPIN pantomimes Dumbledore escorting him to the Shrieking Shack ) Then it'd....( LUPIN pantomimes the waxing of the full moon) Then I'd... (LUPIN pantomimes transforming into a savage werewolf) I had to do it alone! Then they'd... (LUPIN pantomimes the young James, Sirius & Peter furtively studying Animagic arts) Then I'd... ( LUPIN again pantomimes transforming into a werewolf) Then we'd...( LUPIN pantomimes James, Sirius & Peter making their Animagic transfigurations) So that I wasn't alone! They'd say, "What's a werewolf like?" I'd say, "MEAT," They'd say, "Let's through Hogwarts prowl" Then I'd growl But no one eat When I went... (LUPIN pantomimes entering the Shrieking Shack) Black went...(LUPIN pantomimes Sirius persuading SNAPE to follow LUPIN through the Whomping Willow) Snape went... ( LUPIN pantomimes SNAPE walking through the tunnel to the Shack) And then a full-fledged monster started to roar Would've used Snape to mop up the floor James rushed in and pulled him to shore. SNAPE (to himself, under the invisibility cloak) Now I'll say, "O.K. fellas, put your hands up. You ain't seen Severus yet!" (SNAPE removes the cloak to reveal himself) Now I have caught the two of you alone LUPIN Will you hear us out? Come on, you can say. SNAPE (gives a raspberry) LUPIN O.K. O.K. But is a schoolboy grudge worth putting an innocent man back inside Azkaban? SNAPE Is it? Watch this! I'll go...(SNAPE binds LUPIN with magical cords) Then I'll...( SNAPE pantomimes summoning the Dementors) They'll go ...(SNAPE pantomimes the Dementors administering the Kiss to Black & LUPIN) And then the Merlin Order they will award For catching pals of the vile Dark Lord Potter's pouts can be safely ignored TRIO But we'll say, "O.K. Snape, you're talkin' nuts, so here's a few disarmin' spells!" And this... we'll do in perfect unison. (The TRIO point their wands at SNAPE) When we speak you just pooh-pooh it So, you force us to pursue it And we simply will not do it Alone! (The TRIO simultaneously blast SNAPE with their wands, knocking him unconscious) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Sat Mar 8 07:57:18 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 01:57:18 -0600 Subject: Filk: If Ron Were A Wealthy Man Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53419 Ron is sitting alone in his room, looking at the frilly, lace-trimmed dress robes his mother has given him. He grumbles to himself, Ron: (spoken) I hate being poor. I really hate being poor. Would one or two galleons be too much for me to ask? Just a SMALL fortune? Why is everything I own rubbish?!?! (sung)If I were a rich man Deidle-deedle-deidle-diddle-diddle-deedle-deidle-dum All day long I'd chew on Drooble's gum If I were a wealthy man. I wouldn't have to work hard. Deidle-deedle-deidle-diddle-diddle-deedle-deidle-dum If I were a biddy-biddy rich Eidle-deidle-deedle-deidle man. I'd fix our big tall house with rooms by the dozen Stuck very oddly in the halls. With bedrooms jutting out above and below. There would be more than one staircase just going up, And no ghouls there rattling the walls, But I'd still have my Cannons bedsheets, though. I'd fill my yard with random magical beasts All picked to delight the eye and ear, Picking gnomes and placing them in a can, And then I'd gather the gnomes and put them in the country Far, far away rather than near So I'd never have to deal with them again! Oy! If I were a rich man Deidle-deedle-deidle-diddle-diddle-deedle-deidle-dum All day long I'd just sit on my bum If I were a wealthy man. I wouldn't have to work hard. Deidle-deedle-deidle-diddle-diddle-deedle-deidle-dum If I were a biddy-biddy rich Eidle-deidle-deedle-deidle man. I see my mum, my mummy, looking like a rich man's mum Finer dressed than she has been, Conjuring good meals to her heart's delight. I see her yelling at George and scolding at ol' Freddie, Oy, what a happy mood she's in! Screaming at my brothers day and night! ::random nagging sounds:: The most important men in town would come to fawn on me! They would ask me to advise them, just like Dumbledore the wise. "If you please, Ron Weasley," "Pardon me, Ron Weasley," Posing problems that would cross a sphinx's eyes! Yeidle-dee-dai-dai, Yeidle-dai-dai-dai! (wailing, yiddish-sounding chant) Percy peeks his head in the doorway Percy: RON! Could you keep it down, please! Ron: (spoken) sorry. Percy returns to his room Ron: (sung) If I were rich, then I could stifle my pride And no longer feel I'm in the way, And Harry, Herm' and I'd really have a ball. And maybe I could admit to her that I like her And maybe she'd say that was OK! That would be the sweetest thing of all! Oy! ::sighs deeply:: If I were a rich man Deidle-deedle-deidle-diddle-diddle-deedle-deidle-dum All day long I'd wander with my chums If I were a wealthy man. I wouldn't have to work hard. Deidle-deedle-deidle-diddle-diddle-deedle-deidle-dum Fred and George have a joke-shop-making scam, Percy's business ventures have began, But how can I concieve a proper plan To become a wealthy man?? Hobbit-guy From aesob at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 23:23:03 2003 From: aesob at yahoo.com (Alex) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 23:23:03 -0000 Subject: Underage Magic at the Weasley's (and in general) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53420 maria_kirilenko: > Let me try to defend JKR a bit (not that she needs it). > > I believe that schoolchildren on vacation are indeed not allowed to > do magic. But the tracking system in the MoM is such that it cannot > determine who exactly preforms the spell. In other words, they only > track the location. This is why F&G preform magic in the Burrow > during the summer - there are adults living there, and the MoM simply > doesn't know that it wasn't an adult who had preformed the spell. I'm not attacking anyone (particularly JKR), or arguing against the restriction, I'm just poiting out inconsistencies that I'd like explained somehow. I'm in complete agreement that it's a bad idea for underage wizards to be practicing magic without adult supervision, but the tracking system that maria_kirilenko proposes is just as hypothetic and problematic as my idea that it's just a poorly conceived plot element that JKR's bending. If underage wizards were to practice magic at home with other adults nearby (in basements or their own rooms behind closed doors), they could still be causing serious harm to themselves, siblings, pets, etc. The idea that the MoM could track the rough location of spells being cast still has frightening big brotherly consequences (perhaps more so than just having a way of tracking underage wizards). One would think if there were a way to track magic like this, they could find out where any known DE or even Voldemort is by tracking their trail of magic... snip, snip, snip (holes in my argument that I readily admit) moi: > >>Maybe I don't have hard proof, but I stand by my idea that the > underage magic restriction was a plot element that > was too restrictive, so JKR's gone soft on it.>>> maria_kirilenko: > Actually, I think JKR is pretty consistent with it. It's also not as > scary, I think, if the MoM doesn't know *everything.* It would be > pretty oppressive if the Ministry knew who, when, and where had > preformed what spell. I'll grant that it is applied somewhat consistently but I still feel that the whole idea of a restriction on underage magic is an idea that is not very well thought out (or explained) in terms of enforceability. It is frighteningly like big brother...again, if the MoM can track locale, why not more? It's all hypothetical, and perhaps JKR has a completely valid explanation for how it works. If so, I'd love to know. (That and a million other things!) ~~aesob From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Sat Mar 8 03:46:31 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 03:46:31 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Late Start to Magical Education (Was: Re: WQ) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53421 > wrote: > > Sorry, but I've snipped the entire post. The thrust is that logic > > would seem to indicate that magic kids should be much father ahead > > of muggle kids when they first come to Hogwarts, and various people > > had various explainations. > >I write: >Well, actually the thrust of *my* post was that Hogwarts doesn't >appear to assume that any of its students know anything about magic >before first year, and that it also appears (probably in part as a >result of this) that most magical families don't start teaching their >children anything much about how to do magic prior to this point. This >was, however, in response to the notion that at the very least >familiarity should constitute something of an advantage; I agree that >it should make things easier in some ways but get the impression that >Hogwarts has designed its curriculum to avoid counting on it. > And Felinia adds: Well, in GoF, we see little kids riding "toy" broomsticks (but they still fly, if not high), and the little 2-year-old using daddy's wand to enlarge a slug. My guess is that the real issue for WW parents and teachers would be to hold in check some of the innate abilities of children born wizards and witches - for it seems you have to have a natural gift for it to begin with. If the "magical spark" is lacking, that cannot be taught - even to children with wizard parents ("squibs"). It might get down to issues of correct curriculum - the parallel I'm thinking of is that I learned to read at age 2.5 by sitting in my great-aunt's or mother's lap and learning to follow along with words when I was read to. They did not actively work to teach me, and I remember it was a tremendous fuss between my kindergarten teacher and my mother and brother because she could not believe that they had not worked to teach me - that it would have been impossible to stop me from learning. Imagine a parallel, of a child with the natural abilities of, say, an Hermione Granger, who doesn't know s/he is a wizard, but can "make things happen" - and works to focus powers of concentration without actually employing any discipline. I wonder, how would the MoM deal with a situation like that? Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From karen-gary at worldnet.att.net Sat Mar 8 03:34:39 2003 From: karen-gary at worldnet.att.net (Gary Sapp & Karen J.S.) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 03:34:39 -0000 Subject: Question about Head of House Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53422 Does anyone remember the Head of Ravenclaw being discussed? I remember Sprout being identified as Hufflepuff head of house and of course we know about McGonagall and Snape. I can't remember it showing up in the books. I did a search of the lexicon and it appeared in an online chat with JKR by Barnes and Noble. She said Flitwick is the head of Ravenclaw. Anyone remember reading this? Thanks Karen From catlady at wicca.net Sat Mar 8 09:25:28 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 09:25:28 -0000 Subject: V & Lily/Heir/basilisk wand/magic theory/FleurQuidditch/Bill eldest/Marauder Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53423 Nobody's Rib wrote: << Take into account that we're dealing with the Darkest Wizard - isn't showing even the smallest bit of mercy (giving Lily the chance to step aside and not be killed) a HUGE thing? He doesn't even treat Wormtail as well as this, and look what Wormtail has done for him! So what has Lily done for Voldemort that deserves this special treatment? >> Here are some theories that were suggested long ago: a) Snape was in love with Lily. When he learned that Voldemort planned to kill the Potters, he begged to be given Lily as his 'slave'. Since Voldemort's plan did not REQUIRE Lily's death AND Snape was a somewhat valuable follower, Voldemort gave that promise and even made a token effort to keep it. b) Pettigrew was in love with Lily. The way that Voldemort recruited him was by promising to give him Lily (he said in the Shrieking Shack that he had served Voldemort from fear of being killed because he knew it would further irritate Sirius, Remus, AND Harry for him to admit that he had agreed to kill James and Harry in order to get Lily). c) There was a prophecy that Lily's son would win the war for his father's side, which both is why he wanted to kill Harry and why he wanted to have a son by Lily. d) ( ... this is so distasteful ... ) Some people think that Lily was Voldemort's daughter and he had some paternal affection *yuck* Brin wrote: << But did you already consider the big, looming, morbid fact that comes with this theory? That an heir is the *oldest child*? >> No, an heir is whatever person is chosen by the person who wrote the will. I've already mentioned that I believe that the Heir of Gryffindor doesn't have to be related to ol' Godric at all, but simply to demonstrate that his/her values and actions are enough like Gryffindor's values and actions that Gryffindor would find him/her a worthy Heir. Even in cases where the heir is required to be a blood relative (I consider it POSSIBLE that Salazar was sufficiently obsessed with bloodlines that he required that his Heir must be one of his descendents), it doesn't have to be the oldest son; it can be whichever descendent first meets whatever requirement Salazar set. Seventh Squeal wrote: << I thought it would be cool if some of the Slytherins, maybe even Snape, had a Basilisk tooth core. >> Those wands would have had to be made by someone other than Ollivander, as Ollivander said very clearly that HE only uses three types of cores: unicorn tail hair, phoenix feather, and dragon heartstring. For a fanfic, I invented a sword and a spear that were really wands because they had been made with basilisk skin cores. Ffred manawyddan wrote: << There's no reference in the books (at least so far) to _theory_ of magic >> One of the first year textbooks is: Magical Theory by Adalbert Waffling. Some of the homework essays seem theoretical to me, such as the assignment in GoF to write about the modifications needed for Switching Spells when switching an animate to another animate (guinea pigs to guinea hens, was it?). GulPlum wrote: << Fleur could also come back from Beauxbatons as the team cheerleader and raise a few more eyebrows. ;-) >> Three of the four Champions are known to have played Seeker on their Quidditch teams: Harry, Cedric, and Viktor. I would be only slightly surprised if Fleur also played Seeker on her Quidditch team -- the Goblet has already shown a preference for Seekers. Elisabeth, a rude mechanical, wrote: << (By the way, is Bill the eldest Weasley??) >> Yes. I think the only evidence of this is that Ron lists Bill first when listing his brothers, but that's enough for my timeline to have Bill born in 1966-7 and Charlie in 1967-8. I like the idea that Bill was born in September 1967 and Charlie in August 1968, so that they would be in the same year at Hogwarts despite not being twins. I know several families with 11 months between the first and second child, so it is possible. GulPlum wrote: << I consider use of "The Marauders" in this context to betray a sloppy command of grammar and a sloppy appreciation of the nuances of the name, >> No, what *my* use of this term "The Marauders" betrays is a tragic lack of concern for your feelings. I know that the Map is called "Marauder's" singular. I know that that is pretty fair proof that that little gang didn't actually call itself Marauders. I believe they only used the "Messrs MWPP Purveyors of Aids to Magical Mischief Makers" (which caused one early fanfic writer to have them name their gang The Magical Mischief Makers) to sign the artifacts they created, and they had some other name for their gang. Whatever the other name was, it was the kind of Tough Violent name that people choose for gangs and sports teams, the Red Devils or Hell's Angels or Vikings or Pirates or Raiders or Buccaneers or Reavers -- thus I feel that "Marauders" is as good as any. From catlady at wicca.net Sat Mar 8 09:28:47 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 09:28:47 -0000 Subject: Jogwarts admission (was: Harry & Hermione Siblings? In-Reply-To: <3E68B133.000001.29263@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53424 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: << we don't know much about how magical children are 'found' for Hogwarts. I think it's possible that until they get the names and send off the letters they don't know which muggleborns are going to turn out to have magical potential. >> JKR said in an interview that at Hogwarts there is a magic quill. Whenever a magic child is born in Britain, it writes his/her name in a book. Once a year, McGonagall checks the book to address Hogwarts letters to all the children who will turn 11 'that year'. If JKR had specified 'by September 1' that would have settled all that argument about whether Hermione is older or younger than Harry. I am much troubled by the idea that that quill writes down the child's name at birth. Yes, birth is a strongly magical time (therefore natal horoscopes), but some children were born in a different country than where they're living by the time they turn 11. If wizarding folk had a child outside Britain even tho' they lived in Britain, they would know about Hogwarts and know to appeal to Dumbledore for a Hogwarts letter for their child. But Muggles who immigrated to Britain bringing their Muggle-born magic child with them wouldn't know about Hogwarts. I would be happier if the magic quill skipped birth and the book and just addressed the Hogwarts letters when they were about to be sent. There also is the question of how Neville's grandmother and great-uncles could have feared he wasn't magic enough to go to Hogwarts: why couldn't they just ask McGonagall to peek ahead in the magic quill's book and see if Neville was in it? (this is a separate post because I just couldn't squeese it into the title of my combined post.) From morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 09:44:20 2003 From: morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com (morgan_d_yyh) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 09:44:20 -0000 Subject: Point of Order: "The Marauders" In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030307174456.00967460@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53425 Answering GulPlum's post about why James, Sirius, Remus and Peter are often refereed to as "Marauders": >OK, the reason I can imagine most people would want to do so is because of >the name of "The Marauder's Map". I really, really, don't want to repeat >the rant about apostrophe abuse in general which started off a huge debate >on the OT-Chatter list recently, but there is an apostrophe in >"Marauder's", and its meaning is clear: there is *one* "Marauder". The >Map's name is never, ever spelt any other way. I confess I fail to grasp why the use of singular or plural is that conclusive. But I won't argue that particular point, certain that some member with better understanding of English grammar probably will. My point is, no, we don't have canon proof that James, Sirius, Remus and Peter called themselves "Marauders", but we also don't have any proof that they didn't. Even if the singular in the map's name is conclusive, what if the group was named after the map, not the opposite? Think of it: they create the map, baptize it "Marauder's Map", and a week later one of them suggests, "Hey, that's a really cool name, why don't we call ourselves "The Marauders" too?" > I take the name of the Marauder's Map in an analogous sense. Besides, I >can't imagine the authors calling themselves "Marauders", which has zero >positive connotations (at least in my mind, as a native speaker of British >English). Well, I don't know what connotations the word "marauder" suggests to you, but I doubt James, Sirius, Remus and Peter considered it a negative word, or else they wouldn't have called the map "Marauder's Map". They probably spent a long time working on that map, wouldn't they have wanted to give it a cool name? >Furthermore, I don't see "a plunderer; one who pillages" (my >dictionary's definition) fits the foursome. Ah, then maybe I should lend you my dictionary, a very old and battered Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, 4th edition, 1989 (numbers are spelled out, I didn't have to guess, thank god! ^__^): marauding - adj [attrib] (of soldiers, armies, etc.) going about searching for things to steal, people to attack, etc. /The countryside was overrun by marauding bands./ --> marauder n person or animal that does this. A lot more appropriate, isn't it? ^__^ One thing to keep in mind is that groups of male teenagers usually don't name themselves after kind, sweet things. They prefer to be called "Sharks", "Devils", "Shooters" and stuff like that, even if the group itself isn't really involved in violent actions. Young hormones and macho pride, I suppose. Grand, boastful metaphors are for occasions like that. ^_~ >They were in search of >adventure rather than thievery. The definition fits Gred & Forge pretty >well, though (they use the Map to get food from the kitchens and party >supplies from Honeydukes). And what's to say that James, Sirius, Remus and Peter didn't use it with the same intent? Even if the map was created to guide them safely in their adventures during the full moon nights, I sincerely doubt such good pranksters wouldn't have seen the potential the Terrible Twins saw in it. (And no, I'm not saying Fred and George call themselves "The Terrible Twins" ^__^) Anyway, they created a map called "Marauder's Map", so they could sneak safely in, out and around the castle. It's logical assume then that they would think of that sneaking as "marauding", whatever the word meant to them. And while they were sneaking in and out and around, they would be, to their own vocabulary, "marauders". Whether or not they officially called their groups "Marauders". I really don't see James, Sirius, Remus and Peter going about wearing leather jackets with "The Marauders" written on their backs, bullying little kids into giving them their lunch. I don't think they're a gang in *that* sense. But I imagine them using the words "marauder" and "marauding" as a code, as tribal language -- the same way we can say stuff like "bouncing like a ferret" and only be understood by people that are part of our HP "tribe". I can picture them saying stuff like, "Hey, it's marauding time!" or "Full moon is next Friday, any idea of a good place for us to maraud?" or "Oh come on, a true marauder wouldn't chicken out like that!" In other words, if James, Sirius, Remus and Peter ever hear us calling them "Marauders", I'm sure they'll know we are talking about them, and I honestly doubt they'll feel any offended by it. ^__^ Personally, I'd rather refer to them as "Marauders" for two reasons: One, as pointed out by Maria, it just sounds cool ^__^ And two, while writing James, Sirius, Remus and Peter (or Prongs, Padfoot, Moony and Wormtail) all the time is a pain, I really think Internet is already too full of acronyms for its own good. I'm the first to admit that acronyms are handy when we're in a hurry to write, but gosh, sometimes they make some postings unintelligible until we can find a glossary -- a *proper* glossary. Took me quite a while to figure HRH wasn't "His Royal Highness", you know. Morgan D. Hogwarts Letters - http://www.hogwartsletters.hpg.com.br From mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com Sat Mar 8 10:16:31 2003 From: mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com (mr_ed732000) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 10:16:31 -0000 Subject: Point of Order: "The Marauders" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53426 A silly (and tangentially related, if you stretch real hard, to the HP series) literary question to all our resident apostrophists (people who care deeply about apostrophes): If the HP character Seamus is ever the victim of the Avada Kedavra curse and his friends stood watch over his body, how would you punctuate what that watch would be called? ;) Mr. Ed From ksnidget at aol.com Sat Mar 8 11:46:56 2003 From: ksnidget at aol.com (ksnidget at aol.com) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 06:46:56 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question about Head of House Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53427 In a message dated 3/8/03 4:15:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, karen-gary at worldnet.att.net writes: > I can't remember it showing up in the books. I did a search of the > lexicon and it appeared in an online chat with JKR by Barnes and Noble. > She said Flitwick is the head of Ravenclaw. > Searched on http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/ Found it here http://www.yahooligans.com/content/chat/jkrowlingchat.html faheem90 asks: Who is the head of Ravenclaw? Professor Sinistra perhaps? jkrowling_bn: No, the head of Ravenclaw is good old Professor Flitwick! Ksnidget [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From AnaNg209 at aol.com Sat Mar 8 06:20:55 2003 From: AnaNg209 at aol.com (AnaNg209 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 01:20:55 EST Subject: Ron!Dumbledore Message-ID: <2b.3aa027ce.2b9ae5c7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53428 I really cannot buy this whole Dumbledore!Ron, Ron!Dumbledore, REDHEAD ALWAYS theory. In a JKR interview in Reader's Digest she says, "I love a good whodunit and my passion is plot construction. Readers love to be tricked, but not conned," Rowling says. I think that Ron!Dumbledore is a huge con, and it the books would have outright lied to us about stuff like the DD's brother-goat incident. It seems like to rely on the Time Turner to resolve the series would be like, way too easy. I think it contradicts the above statement. Just a thought, though. Sorry to be parade-raining on my second post. Kim [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Sat Mar 8 12:00:29 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 12:00:29 -0000 Subject: Point of Order: "The Marauders" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53429 Steve wrote: > > It is, however, a fan convention, and it is unstoppable. ... So Marauders it > is. First, a personal disclaimer: I have no problem with the fandom calling MWPP the 'marauders' or 'Marauders', even though I prefer to use the perfectly pronouncable Mwupup. It is not unstoppable, but not by us. If JKR gives them a name in a future book, that will win. I think the main argument against the name 'Marauders' would really be that we don't know how much the map was central to their activities and identity. If it turns out that they engaged - perhaps especially a little later, say in their seventh year - in a whole variety of activities of which 'marauding' was but a part, the name will come to seem partial. Again, this argument depends mostly on future canon, but I think one can begin to see a line of reasoning under which Dumbeldore co-opts them and they develop their identity through that. David, admiring Richard for his cunning in starting the apostrophe debate on OT-Chatter *before* raising this issue From lupinesque at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 13:14:25 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 13:14:25 -0000 Subject: Point of Order: "The Marauders" In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030307174456.00967460@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53430 Richard, I agree with almost every word you wrote. I hate the term "Marauders" and am fond of the precision of properly-used apostrophes. I cringe at fics that leave Peter out of the group, or make him out to be an obvious coward/idiot/DE wannabe at age 15, because they completely undermine the essential point that he was a trusted friend who betrayed that trust. And I am, of course, a LOON, and warmly welcome you to our precise little fiefdom. The only dissenting squeak I will make is that MWPP couldn't have considered the term "Marauder" to be *completely* unapplicable to their personae, or they wouldn't have called the map that they designed and used "The Marauder's Map." They'd have called it "The Mischief-Maker's Map," or the like. They did not, in short, *object* to the term "Marauder." But yes, point taken: the title of the map is not a key to the name of the gang, if name there was. Amy Z From trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no Sat Mar 8 13:28:13 2003 From: trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no (Trond Michelsen) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 14:28:13 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Point of Order: "The Marauders" In-Reply-To: ; from psychic_serpent@yahoo.com on Fri, Mar 07, 2003 at 11:09:39PM -0000 References: <4.2.0.58.20030307174456.00967460@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <20030308142813.S27521@crusaders.no> No: HPFGUIDX 53431 Until now, I'm pretty sure that I've used the name "Marauder" about James and his friends. If I haven't, it's purely by coincidence. However, Richard's post has really convinced me that there's absolutely no indication that they used this term for the group. psychic_serpent wrote: > The four of them created the map for their own use. They titled > it "The Marauder's Map." This seems to be a blatant bit of self- > labeling, IMHO. I don't see how one can look at this and NOT assume > that that is a good moniker for the group. I can see how it might > have been thought up, as well. But who is/was the Marauder they named the map after? I don't think it's any spesific person at all, and certainly not the group. It's a map that's very useful when you're out marauding, so whoever's using it at the time is a marauder - hence "Marauder's map". -- // Trond Michelsen \X/ mike at crusaders.no From hp at plum.cream.org Sat Mar 8 15:09:16 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 15:09:16 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Ron!Dumbledore In-Reply-To: <2b.3aa027ce.2b9ae5c7@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030308145631.00963ae0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53432 At 06:20 08/03/03 , AnaNg209 at aol.com wrote: >I think that Ron!Dumbledore is a huge con, and it the books would have >outright lied to us about stuff like the DD's brother-goat incident. It >seems like to rely on the Time Turner to resolve the series would be like, >way too easy. I think it contradicts the above statement. Just a thought, >though. Well, Time-Travelling!Ron doesn't *resolve* the series; all it resolves is how come Dumbledore seems to know so much about what the Trio are up to. The beauty of it is that every objection to Dumbledore's refusal to "fix" things can be simply explained by his knowledge that he can't (or at least *shouldn't*) change what he knows to have occurred. It would really be a bit much if Dumbledore admitted that he has five brothers and a sister - he's a great lover of the red herring and the incomplete truth for dramatic effect. OK, this would be a downright untruth and to date we've not caught Dumbledore deliberately lying... Nevertheless, as someone else suggested, the real Albus Dumbledore may well have had a brother called Aberforth, and Time-Travelling!Ron needs to maintain his front, so that's explained as well. ;-) >Sorry to be parade-raining on my second post. Don't worry about it. I don't think any of REDHEAD ALWAYS's supporters actually believes it's going to come true, but it's terrific fun nevertheless. :-) -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who's just noticed a mini-flood of replies in the Marauders thread but must delay reading most of them and replying until the evening. From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 15:48:53 2003 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 15:48:53 -0000 Subject: Ron!Dumbledore In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030308145631.00963ae0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53433 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, GulPlum wrote: > The beauty of it is that every objection to Dumbledore's refusal to "fix" > things can be simply explained by his knowledge that he can't (or at least > *shouldn't*) change what he knows to have occurred. To add even more to this point, Ron!Dumbledore would not only be unwilling to "put right what once went wrong" because of allegence to some abstract idea about not meddling with history (like following a temporal version of the prime directive). He would also realize that any attempt to "put right," for example, Wormtail's betrayal would not only alter the future in some abtract way but - _prevent the destruction of Voldemort_!!!! Think about it. In 130 years Ron!Dumbledore never comes up with a way to defeat Voldemort other than through Harry. Imagine how this would torture him. He knows that his best friend's parents and his childhood will have to sacrificed. He sees no way out - except maybe killing an 11 year old Tom Riddle - which would be so wrong he can't do it. So, he has to allow the betrayal so Harry's mother will die to protect him and so the AK will bounce back and so Harry will recieve some of V's powers etc. etc. leading to Harry's eventual defeat of V. Ron!Dumbledore can't put right small things at the risk of allowing V to remain in power. (**note: I think the first sentence of this post must contain the most geeky references ever) -Ing From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Mar 8 15:56:22 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 15:56:22 -0000 Subject: Evil!lupin: a rebuttal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53434 The Hobbit Guy said: Well, lets look at the choices he has made. So far, Lupin has made thedifficult decision to return Hogwarts to teach, even though the place issurely rife with both good and bad memories for him. He has sworn to protect Harry Potter and the rest of the school from one of his formerbest friends (I know that this isn't directly stated in canon, but I'm certain that this is at least part of the reason Dumbledore asks him toteach, and at least part of the reason he accepts. His knowledge of Sirius Black would have been a great asset if Black were truly after Harry.). He has done his best to resist sniping at snape throughout theyear (not easy, I'm sure!). He has promised to help Harry defend himself from the dementors, Finally, and to me, most significantly, when faced with the possibility of gaining revenge, heDOES NOT DWELL ON IT. << Not vindictive? It's far easier to make a case for vindictive!Lupin than, say, vindictive!McGongall. There's the Snape-boggart, the vampire essay, the chilling exchange "Forgive me, Remus," said Black. "Not at all, Padfoot, old friend," said Lupin... and most telling, Lupin's casual re-introduction of cold-blooded murder ("No one's going to kill you until we've sorted a few things out") as the way to deal with Pettigrew. This *after* Sirius himself had already proposed bringing Peter up to the castle instead, where a healthy dose of Veritaserum could have established the truth to the satisfaction of everybody. Lupin could have had evil reasons for teaching Harry to resist the Dementors, just as Fake!Moody taught Harry to resist the Imperius curse. And of course, Lupin could have learned about Pettigrew the same way Sirius did. Some of Lupin's choices don't speak well of him at all. His humiliation of Snape in the boggart incident is hilarious from the reader's POV (and I smile everytime I anticipate Alan Rickman in drag) but it didn't do Neville any good. He was more afraid of Snape than ever, and Snape treated him worse than before. Worse, Lupin doesn't tell all he knows about the escaped terrorist murderer Sirius Black. That's very odd, if he's sworn to protect Harry at all costs. It's also very strange that Lupin pays no heed to Ron's injuries or Snape's until they become a logistical problem, even though Ron is in obvious pain the whole time and an unconscious person should be checked at once to make sure they are breathing. Speaking of choices, it's pretty likely that Pettigrew will be redeemed. Shouldn't there be at least one dyed-in-the-wolf, er, wool, member of MWPP who goes bad and chooses to remain so? Though I'm sure he'll be offered the chance to repent. Pippin From flamingstarchows at att.net Sat Mar 8 17:12:57 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 11:12:57 -0600 Subject: [Re: Evil!lupin: a rebuttal References: Message-ID: <006401c2e595$f7b642c0$2418570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 53435 ----- Original Message ----- From: pippin_999 wrote >Not vindictive? It's far easier to make a case for vindictive!Lupin >than, say, vindictive!McGongall. There's the Snape-boggart, the >vampire essay, the chilling exchange >"Forgive me, Remus," said Black. >"Not at all, Padfoot, old friend," said Lupin... My reply: I"m confused - Lupin followed this by saying "And will you in turn, forgive me of thinking *you* were the spy?" There was nothing vindictive about this at all. Lupin forgave Black and Black forgave Lupin. Each of them had thought the other was the spy for Voldemort. Lupin was the one that kept Black from blasting Scabbers!Peter right there on the spot and told him that Harry needed to know the whole story, and that Ron had kept Scabbers as a pet for years and deserved to know as well. >and most telling, Lupin's casual re-introduction of cold-blooded >murder ("No one's going to kill you until we've sorted a few things >out") as the way to deal with Pettigrew. My reply: You left out the whole exchange ahead of this where Sirius arm wand rose and Lupin grabbed him around the waist. This particular reply was to Pettigrew saying "He's come to try and kill me again!". "He killed Lily and James and now he's going to kill me to....You've got to help me, Remus...." Lupin's response was simply matter of fact, not vindictive in the least. >Lupin could have had evil reasons for teaching Harry to resist the >Dementors, just as Fake!Moody taught Harry to resist the >Imperius curse. And of course, Lupin could have learned about >Pettigrew the same way Sirius did. I can't think of any evil reason for teaching Harry to resist the Dementors. Wouldn't it have been far more evil to not even attempt to do so and let him suffer? Of course I don't think Crouch!Moody's reasons were evil, either. I think he just got carried away in his teaching role and forgot himself. I will always believe that Voldemort was rather surprised that Harry resisted him in that graveyard - after all, he had controlled Crouch, Sr, who was supposed to be *very* powerful wizard for months with it. Why would he expect a kid to resist him? And why would he want to show that he could right there in front of all of his DEs? >Some of Lupin's choices don't speak well of him at all. His >humiliation of Snape in the boggart incident is hilarious from the >reader's POV (and I smile everytime I anticipate Alan Rickman in >drag) but it didn't do Neville any good. He was more afraid of >Snape than ever, and Snape treated him worse than before. My reply: Lupin had no control over Neville's boggart. Snape is what Neville is most afraid of (and I suspect that everyone rather knows it). I think he chose Neville because he knew what his boggart would probably be, and was therefore be able to help him overcome it by having him imagine his grandmother's clothes (also a very strong image). Think about it, you have a classroom full of children, about to be confronted with their worst fear. Would you really want to start with Ron and his giant spider? No one else in the room was as terrified of Snape as Neville, so they could learn and get the point of the whole thing without being scared out of their wits. After all, that turned out to be the reason he did not allow Harry attack the boggart. He thought it would turn into Voldemort and everyone would panic. And while Snape did pick on Neville even more, I don't think he could possibly be any worse off. That is already his worst fear, how much worse can it get? Who knows, perhaps Lupin thought the Neville might be able to imagine the real Snape in his grandmother's getup and help gain control of his fear. After all, how many times have you heard when you have stage fright to imagine the crowd in its' underwear? >Worse, Lupin doesn't tell all he knows about the escaped >terrorist murderer Sirius Black. That's very odd, if he's sworn to >protect Harry at all costs. My reply: I think that was explained. He didn't want to have to explain to Dumbledore that he had betrayed his trust when he was in school by running around the school with three illegal animagi (also breaking the rules). He wanted to believe that Sirius really was using black magic to get onto the grounds. I don't think he knew that the Dementors couldn't pick up on animals as well as humans. After all, he had not even considered that was how Sirius had escaped from Azkaban. >It's also very strange that Lupin pays >no heed to Ron's injuries or Snape's until they become a >logistical problem, even though Ron is in obvious pain the whole >time and an unconscious person should be checked at once to >make sure they are breathing. My reply: I really don't think Ron would have let him near his leg until the very end when he finally understood and accepted what was going on. I think Lupin was smart enough to know that. As far as Snape, he wanted to take Lupin and Sirius straight to the Dementors. I'm sure Lupin knows enough about *Expelliarmus* to know that even though the three hit him at once, it would do no lasting damage. It was probably a lot safer leaving him unconscious. >Speaking of choices, it's pretty likely that Pettigrew will be >redeemed. Shouldn't there be at least one dyed-in-the-wolf, er, >wool, member of MWPP who goes bad and chooses to remain >so? Though I'm sure he'll be offered the chance to repent. My reply: I don't know if Pettigrew will be redeemed or not. I see him as a sniveling little coward that hangs out with the biggest bully around. He handed over one of his best friends to Voldemort. It just doesn't say a lot for his character. I like Lupin. I think he is a good and kind teacher who just happens to be a werewolf. ~Cathy~ From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 17:32:59 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 17:32:59 -0000 Subject: Point of Order: "The Marauders" In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030308012525.0096feb0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53436 I wrote: > >The title of the map clearly indicates that it is for the benefit > > of Marauders (plural). and then GulPlum wrote: > Sorry, but how can "Marauder's" be a plural? And > especially "clearly" a plural? Me: Hm. Since you brought up the Visitor's Map, I thought you understood this. Evidently not. Okay, let me try again. A "Visitor's Map" is not for the use of only one visitor in history. It is for the use of any who IS A VISITOR. This would mean it is for visitors, PLURAL. Similarly, a Marauder's Map would be for anyone who is a Marauder. For all Marauders, plural, in other words. At no time did I say that the word "Marauder's" was plural. I said that the construction clearly INDICATED that it was for Marauders in general. I don't know how to be any clearer about it than that, especially since you (marginally) made this point yourself (and then discarded it, as though you hadn't) when you brought up the Visitor's Map as an equivalent. How this is "disingenuous" is something you still need to explain to me. It is a common English usage with clear implications, and anyone who thinks such an item is for only one Marauder is rather confused. Gulplum wrote: > You missed one important element from the Map's heading. I missed > it in my previous post as well; this was meant to have been part of > my argument, but I forgot to mention it, although it was the Map's > full heading which started me wondering something about the Map > long before I'd seen "The Marauders" as a term for the foursome. > > The full heading/title is: > "Messrs. Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs > Purveyors of Aids to Magical Mischief-Makers > are proud to present > THE MARAUDER'S MAP" > > Hmmm.... *Purveyors*... I can't be bothered to look up a dictionary > definition, but off the top of my head, I'd suggest "suppliers" as > a synonym. The thing is, Messrs. M,W,P&P *supply* these aids, > perhaps for money (a la Gred & Forge), or perhaps just for kicks > (as do Gred & Forge with some of their products). This extremely > (mock) formal way of heading the Map strikes me as completely out > of place if the map is solely for their own use. If it's not > designed for anyone else's use, why waste space with that verbose > introduction? Me: Actually that heading was very much in my mind when I wrote my reply. Why would they write that? Again, youthful bravado, IMO. (You evidently decided to gloss over that part of my post.) It seems to me that they were obviously full of themselves. Do you honestly think they were "purveyors" of anything, to anyone else? I stand by my assertion that they created this for their own use--Remus Lupin tells Harry this in PoA. He says he was one of the creators. MWPP would probably expect a map like the one they created to carry just such a label. They were having fun and wanted everything to be as authentic as possible. THEY evidently had a sense of humor and fun. (Look at the way the map insulted Snape! Love it!) I think anyone who can't imagine doing this except in the utmost seriousness may need to take a page from their book when it comes to that sort of thing. ("Oh, Padfoot, we can't put that on there about being purveyers unless we have a business plan..." ) Gulplum continued to mystify me by asking: > From where do you get "skilled Marauder"? It strikes me that this > is an aid for the *unskilled* Marauder. Indeed, Gred & Forge, who > by the time they give Harry the Map are very much "skilled", say > categorically that his need for the Map, as a "beginner" (my word, > not canon's), is greater than theirs. Furthermore, Fred > specifically refers to M,W,P&P as "noble men, working tirelessly to > help a new generation of lawbreakers". Me: Gred and Forge seemed to think they knew everything about the castle, and that's supposedly why they gave it up. Frankly, I thought this was a poor excuse, as one of the most useful things about the map is the fact that you can see people moving about the castle and grounds (this is how, for instance, Lupin spots that Peter is leaving Hagrid's hut with Ron). For the twins to give up the ability to spy on people this way is rather mystifying frankly, but JKR wanted Harry to have the map, so evidently she decided not to explain away their willingness to sacrifice this advantage. A skilled Marauder would use every tool at his disposal, IMO, and a map showing where people are moving about certainly fits the bill. (If you're implying that Gred and Forge can still do this without the aid of the map, I'm afraid there's no canon support for that.) The twins also had no idea who MWPP were, as they found the map in Filch's office. It's possible that the original four bequeathed it to some younger students when they were preparing to leave school, and after being passed down over the years it was eventually confiscated by Filch, but there is no evidence that anyone ever used the map while MWPP were in school other than the creators. Lupin speaks of their exploits but does not include anything about making money selling maps. Gulplum then continues: > This brings me to an issue not relevant to this particular > discussion... All of this strikes me as a powerful indicator that > there are *other* copies of the Map around. Where are they? Were > they all found and destroyed, or are there scraps of parchment > around Hogwarts with old pieces of homework scribbled on them, > whose hidden attributes were never discovered? What other "Aids to > Magical Mischief-Makers" did they produce? And where are *they*? > I'm sure that a raid on Filch's filing cabinet is yet to come and > will provide several more M,W,P&P products... Me: I'm afraid that you're really reaching now. Lupin speaks of the map almost reverently, as though it was a one-of-a-kind item. He says he helped create THAT map, not "maps." (Where's the fun in sneaking around the castle, feeling omnipotent, if you've sold twenty other copies to other people, who are all simultaneously doing the same thing? There's also no opportunity to feel smug and superior if you're not the only ones who can do certain things--and Snape definitely seemed to think they felt smug and superior.) As I said above, IMO, the label was clearly to add authenticity to it, as part of their youthful fun. While more MWPP inventions may very well be in Filch's office, there is nothing in canon to indicate either this or multiple maps. One thing that is strongly implied in canon, when Snape tries and fails to activate the map, is that he KNOWS who the nicknames abbreviated by MWPP refer to. It is also strongly implied that he knows the hump-backed witch is an entrance to a secret passage, although he is unable to activate it. To take the label on the Marauder's Map literally instead of recognizing it for an obvious inside joke strikes ME as disingenuous, frankly. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 17:42:43 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 17:42:43 -0000 Subject: Point of Order: "The Marauders" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53437 Mr. Ed asked "a silly (and tangentially related, if you stretch real hard, to the HP series)literary question to all our resident apostrophists": > If the HP character Seamus is ever the victim of the Avada Kedavra > curse and his friends stood watch over his body, how would you > punctuate what that watch would be called? ;) I, a self-proclaimed apostrophist, respond: The wordage of your question, cleverly arranged to eliminate apostrophe use, has confused me a bit, but I think I understand the gist of your question. There are two possibilities: The friends are either standing watch over "Seamus' body" or "Seamus's body." In grammar school I was taught the former was correct, but, according to _The Chicago Manual of Style_ (this is a bible of sorts for apostrophists and other grammarians...) *either* is acceptable, and the latter is preferred. >From _The Chicago Manual of Style_ website: > Q. When indicating possession of a word that ends in s, is it > correct to repeat the s after using an apostrophe? For example, > which is correct: "Dickens' novel" or "Dickens's novel"? > A. Either is correct, though the main CMS recommendation is the > latter. Please consult 6.30 (p. 201) in the fourteenth edition, > which has a full discussion of these options, including, > specifically, the example of Dickens (and the phonetically similar > Hopkins and Williams). (www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/cmosfaq/cmosfaq.html) Hope this was of some help. - Nobody's Rib, who at times is frightened by her love of punctuation From amani at charter.net Sat Mar 8 18:07:07 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 13:07:07 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Gryffindor Quidditch Team References: Message-ID: <005b01c2e59d$887cc660$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53438 bboy_mn: Also, remember that there are only 3 other guys in Harry & Ron's year, so they are probably going to have to build a substanial part of the team from underclassmen. Since Harry and, by year 6, Ron are the experienced players, I find it hard to believe Harry will be able to continue as seeker. Me: Why in the world would Harry cease being a Seeker? He's amazing at it! One of the greatest Seekers in the WW even praised his flying skills. Harry gained the position because he has amazing natural talent, the kind of natural talent that is /extremely/ rare. It's a positively ridiculous decision to change positions when Harry has /never lost a game/. (Note that I don't count the PoA game as Harry losing it, as he was sort've...unconcious. I'm sure we all believe that he /would/ have won it, seeing as he won all of his other ones.) --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amani at charter.net Sat Mar 8 18:19:53 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 13:19:53 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron is Dumbledore? References: Message-ID: <008601c2e59f$50874bc0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53439 Melody: Hmmm, Ron as Dumbledore. Given Ron's reputation to date in the series, seems Dumbledore does not have to be so squeaky clean now. In fact, that could cover a few of MD's dark spots you know. *Dumbledore* may not of manipulated all, but a Ron!Dumbledore. Well, he is *there* to manipulate it all. Though, what is he manipulating? Ron, when he went back in time, already knew what all had happened. He cannot change anything. So, what would he be doing as Dumbledore? Hmm, I think I am lost here somewhere. Oh, well. No big surprise on my part I guess. Me: Ah, but he wouldn't be /changing/ the past. He'd be /causing/ the past, just like in PoA. Harry and Hermione didn't /change/ anything, because it had already happened. They merely /caused/ it. Melody: And as for Alberforth? Well, when Ron took over as Dumbledore, he accepted on Dumbledore's family. He had all those years to learn about dear old Alber and his goat. And I bet after the Weasleys, Ron's eyes might of been a bit big seeing a family like the kind Dumbledore probably has. Me: Wait, I'm a bit confused on that... Dumbledore wouldn't /have/ a family, because he would simply be Ron in the past. His family would /still/ be the Weasley's. He wouldn't have an actual biological family in the past. Ron is not "taking over as Dumbledore." He is creating the persona. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 18:27:22 2003 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 18:27:22 -0000 Subject: Point of Order: "The Marauders" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53440 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nobodysrib" < nobodysrib at y...> wrote: > Mr. Ed asked "a silly (and tangentially related, if you stretch real > hard, to the HP series)literary question to all our resident > apostrophists": > > > If the HP character Seamus is ever the victim of the Avada Kedavra > > curse and his friends stood watch over his body, how would you > > punctuate what that watch would be called? ;) > Nobody's Rib, a self-proclaimed apostrophist, responds: > > The wordage of your question, cleverly arranged to eliminate > apostrophe use, has confused me a bit, but I think I understand the > gist of your question. > > There are two possibilities: The friends are either standing watch > over "Seamus' body" or "Seamus's body." In grammar school I was > taught the former was correct, but, according to _The Chicago Manual > of Style_ (this is a bible of sorts for apostrophists and other > grammarians...) *either* is acceptable, and the latter is preferred. > > From _The Chicago Manual of Style_ website: > > > Q. When indicating possession of a word that ends in s, is it > > correct to repeat the s after using an apostrophe? For example, > > which is correct: "Dickens' novel" or > "Dickens's novel"? > > > A. Either is correct, though the main CMS recommendation is the > > latter. Please consult 6.30 (p. 201) in the fourteenth edition, > > which has a full discussion of these options, including, > > specifically, the example of Dickens (and the phonetically similar > > Hopkins and Williams). > (www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/cmosfaq/ cmosfaq.html) > > Hope this was of some help. Me: Forget punctuation issues. It would of course be: Finnigan's Wake ;) -Ing From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 18:50:44 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 18:50:44 -0000 Subject: V & Lily/Heir/basilisk wand/magic theory/FleurQuidditch/Bill eldest/Marauder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53441 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > Nobody's Rib wrote: > > << Take into account that we're dealing with the Darkest Wizard - > isn't showing even the smallest bit of mercy (giving Lily the chance > to step aside and not be killed) a HUGE thing? > >> > > Here are some theories that were suggested long ago: > > a) Snape was in love with Lily. ... > > b) Pettigrew was in love with Lily. ... > > c) There was a prophecy that Lily's son would win the war for his > father's side, ... > d) Some people think that Lily was Voldemort's daughter .... > bboy_mn: Or... e) at the moment, Lily was inconsequential to Voldemort's goal, so he just brushed her aside, 'Out of the way girl, I've got more important things to do'. We have no way of knowing that Voldemort, in any way shape or form, intended to spare Lily, all we, or at least I, can conclude is that killing Harry was a higher priority than wasting time with Lily. I have every reason to believe that Voldemort would have killed Lily without a second thought or second glance once he had disposed of Harry. Now ask yourself, could this really be a valid offer? Would Voldemort or any rational (or irrational for that matter) person actually believe a mother would step aside and let her infant son be killed. V: 'Step aside silly girl, you don't have to die.' L: 'Oh well, that's different. Why didn't you say so before? Sure go ahead kill my kid, meanwhile, I'll just go make us a nice pot of tea.' ...and I'm the Queen of England. All sarcasm fully intended. -end this part- > Brin wrote: > > << But did you already consider the big, looming, morbid fact that > comes with this theory? That an heir is the *oldest child*? >> > > No, an heir is whatever person is chosen by the person who wrote the > will. I've already mentioned that I believe that the Heir of > Gryffindor doesn't have to be related to ol' Godric at all, bboy_mn: I'm behind you on this one. The two possibilities are that Harry is the biological heir to Gryffindor legacy, or that Harry is the most Gryffindorious (I love it when I get to make up words) of all Gryffindors and is therefore 'the chosen one'; the one who is worth to carry the torch. I speculate as an illustration, that Fawkes is the keeper of the legacy. Whom ever Fawkes choses as his new master becomes the next 'King of Gryffindors'. King Arthur became King not by some provable line of blood but because the next true heir, the one person worth of becoming king would be the man who could pull the sword from the stone. King by birthright of worthiness, not by birthright of blood. -end this part- > > Seventh Squeal wrote: > > << I thought it would be cool if some of the Slytherins, maybe even > Snape, had a Basilisk tooth core. >> > > Those wands would have had to be made by someone other than > Ollivander, as Ollivander said very clearly that HE only uses three > types of cores: unicorn tail hair, phoenix feather, and dragon > heartstring. For a fanfic, I invented a sword and a spear that were > really wands because they had been made with basilisk skin cores. > > Ffred manawyddan wrote: > > << There's no reference in the books (at least so far) to > _theory_ of magic >> > > One of the first year textbooks is: Magical Theory by Adalbert > Waffling. Some of the homework essays seem theoretical to me, ... > bboy_mn: There are several reference to studying the theory of magic. For example, if GoF when Harry can't master the Summoning Charm, Hermione insist that the go to the library and research the theory in hopes that it might help him understand the spell better. Also, student are frequently given additional homework, usually reading assignment related to a specific spell or charm. One can only assume that once you have the incantation and the intent of the charm, all reading and research after that would be based on theory. -end this part- > > Elisabeth, a rude mechanical, wrote: > > << (By the way, is Bill the eldest Weasley??) >> > > Yes. I think the only evidence of this is that Ron lists Bill first > when listing his brothers, ... > bboy_mn: I've just finished PoA and started Gof (again) and I am absolutely certain that there is a passage in one of the books that reads the equivalnet of '...Charlie (Ron's second oldest brother)...'. I made a mental note of it when I saw it because I know this as been discussed before. The problem is, I can't remember the context, so I'm having trouble locating the exact quote. I will keep looking and if I find it, I'll post it. -end this part- > GulPlum wrote: > > << I consider use of "The Marauders" in this context to betray a > sloppy command of grammar and a sloppy appreciation of the nuances > of the name, >> > > No, what *my* use of this term "The Marauders" betrays is a tragic > lack of concern for your feelings. > bboy_mn: To GulPlum, while you do have a perfectly valid point, I have to ask if you knew who the were referring to when you read the reference to the Marauders? Obviously from your post, you know it was James, Remus, Sirius, and Peter, so regardless of the technical error the intent was communicated to the reader. As far as the "Marauder's" vs the "Marauders'", we don't know that it wasn't an editing error. Some over eager but marginally competent copy editor could have made the change. (note: I'm not condemning any and/or all copy editors; I'm just illustrating a point.) When you read the words 'The Marauder's Map', it reads as if it is saying 'The Map of the Marauders' and I suspect that's how many people interpreted it. So right or wrong, there is a common collective assumption that this gang of four are 'The Marauders'. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 19:24:57 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 19:24:57 -0000 Subject: The Gryffindor Quidditch Team In-Reply-To: <005b01c2e59d$887cc660$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53442 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Taryn Kimel" wrote: > bboy_mn: > Also, remember that there are only 3 other guys in Harry & Ron's year, > so they are probably going to have to build a substanial part of the > team from underclassmen. Since Harry and, by year 6, Ron are the > experienced players, I find it hard to believe Harry will be able to > continue as seeker. > > Me: > Why in the world would Harry cease being a Seeker? He's amazing at > it! One of the greatest Seekers in the WW even praised his flying > skills. > ...edited... > > --Taryn bboy_mn: Perfectly valid point, and I agree, but you missed my point. The question isn't whether Harry wants to be a Seeker, the question is whether he will be able to continue being Seaker when you consider the potential players he has available to build a team out of. The available people who have been named are Dean Thomas, Seamus Finnigan, Neville Longbottom, Colin Creevey, and Dennis Creevey. I'm not discounting female players, it's just that none of the named girls have expressed an interest in Quidditch beyond watching it. Assuming we have Harry and Ron, we need 5 more players. The vacant positions will be 3 Chasers and 2 Beaters. I certainly don't see Colin and Dennis as Beaters and only marginally as Chasers. But I could picture Colin being a Seeker which would mean Harry would have to find a new position. So, I agree 100% that Harry want to be the Seeker, but will he be able to given the people who are available to build a team from? Just a thought. bboy_mn From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 19:30:06 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 19:30:06 -0000 Subject: [Re: Evil!lupin: a rebuttal In-Reply-To: <006401c2e595$f7b642c0$2418570c@pavilion> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53443 I'm jumping into Pippin and Cathy's Evil!Lupin discussion... Cathy wrote: > I like Lupin. I think he is a good and kind teacher who just > happens to be a werewolf. I adore Lupin, and every time I reread PoA I fall a little more in love with him - but I think that's part of the genius of having him be a, uh, wolf in sheep's clothing. I do not think I am alone in my Lupin-love; in fact, I think he is purposefully set up to be a sympathetic character for readers to like. And if a reader does not specifically like him, they are at least set up (with the anti- werewolf sentiments of the WW fully discussed) to sympathize with his ostracization. *No one* (ahem, except for us investigative listees) would suspect him. Which makes him the perfect mole. Pippin wrote, making a case for vindictive!Lupin: > There's the Snape-boggart, the vampire essay, the chilling exchange > >"Forgive me, Remus," said Black. > >"Not at all, Padfoot, old friend," said Lupin... (quick side comment for me: Could someone fill mein on the vampire essay? I have flipped through PoA, but cannot find the reference. Is this part of a Vampire!Snape theory, and Lupin assigned a vampire essay in the same way that Snape assigned the werewolf essay? As always, if this has been discussed ad nauseum and you do not want to waste board space, please feel free to email me directly... now, back to the main discussion...) Cathy's reply: > I"m confused - Lupin followed this by saying "And will you in > turn, forgive me of thinking *you* were the spy?" There was nothing > vindictive about this at all. Lupin forgave Black and Black > forgave Lupin. Each of them had thought the other was the spy for > Voldemort. I have several, different, Evil!Lupin interpretations of this exchange: (1) Black asking for forgiveness, and Lupin using clever wording to deny him forgiveness, (2) Black asking for forgiveness, and Lupin (keeping his sheep's clothing firmly in place) playing the good!Lupin role that he has played for so long, and (3) Black asking for forgiveness - for thinking Lupin was the spy, and Lupin forgiving him - for thinking Black killed Lupin's cohort Pettigrew. (I'm not sure which of these interpretations best fits the Evil!Lupin theory that has been tossed around on the board.) Pippin wrote: > Lupin could have had evil reasons for teaching Harry to resist the > Dementors, just as Fake!Moody taught Harry to resist the > Imperius curse. And of course, Lupin could have learned about > Pettigrew the same way Sirius did. and Cathy replied: > Wouldn't it have been far more evil to not even attempt to do so > and let him suffer? Of course I don't think Crouch!Moody's reasons > were evil, either. I think he just got carried away in his > teaching role and forgot himself. I agree that Lupin and Crouch may have had evil reasons for teaching Harry DADA techniques, but they could have also been following the motto of "keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer." I'm going to specifically examine Lupin: First of all, Lupin put off the patronus lessons for as long as he could while still keeping his sheep's clothing intact. Then, once he submitted to the requests, Harry's tutorials gave him an increased amount of face-time with Harry, and he also learned what may have been valuable information for the future (ie what Harry heard when encountering dementors.) Is it not to the enemy's advantage to know what his adversary most fears? (And might he have told Crouch!Moody of these successes, leading Crouch!Moody to follow in his footsteps and also teach DADA tachniques?) I have two other minor points to discuss. Teaching Harry DADA techniques is a grand way to gain Harry's trust - and keep him from being suspicious that his DADA teacher is not who he appears to be. Also, in this instance, Harry's successful patronus charm turned out to be of benefit to Voldemort; Voldemort wished to have Harry remain alive so that his blood could be used in aiding his "rebirth," and had Harry not known the patronus charm, his demise would have negatively effected Voldemort's grand plan. Cathy responded to Pippin mentioning the Neville/ Snape/ boggart incident as an example of Lupin's choices not speaking well of him: > Lupin had no control over Neville's boggart. Snape is what > Neville is most afraid of (and I suspect that everyone rather knows > it). Think about it, you have a classroom full of children, > about to be confronted with their worst fear. No one else > in the room was as terrified of Snape as Neville, so they could > learn and get the point of the whole thing without being scared out > of their wits. My interpretation of Lupin's choice to start with Neville: Neville going first also meant that Lupin used Neville as an example for the class, intructing him to picture Snape in drag, etc. Regardless of his Evil or Good status, it serves no purpose having a loose boggart in the room (it makes him appear incompetent, endangers his ethos, etc.). If Neville had not gone first, he would not have received this careful instruction and, when the boggart finally did appraoch him, Neville might not have succeeded. Also, Neville's confidence in facing boggarts is now raised, but if Neville were to come across a boggart unawares, I doubt he would be as successful in a candid situation. This, too, may be of use to the dark side. There's also the argument that both Lupin and Crouch!Moody used befriending Neville as a way to gain Harry's trust, but another angle to consider is vindictive!Lupin. Lupin, knowing that Neville fears Snape, knows that whichever student goes first will have the boggart- image that most sticks in the students' minds (with perhaps the exception of their own.) Lupin, hating Snape, would love to have the students having a humiliating image of Snape in their heads. (Having Snape actually have knowledge of this is just an added bonus.) While this does not strictly support the Evil!Lupin theory, it does tarnish his not-so-pristine reputation. Pippin wrote: > Lupin doesn't tell all he knows about the escaped terrorist > murderer Sirius Black. That's very odd, if he's sworn to protect >Harry at all costs. And Cathy replied: > I think that was explained. He didn't want to have to explain to > Dumbledore that he had betrayed his trust when he was in school by > running around the school with three illegal animagi (also breaking > the rules). My addition to this discussion: To me, this is one of the most telling aspects of Lupin's character. Regardless of a desire to protect *Harry*, a dangerous person is on the Hogwarts grounds, and Lupin is aware of a way the dangerous person might be able to disguise himself. It doesn't particularly matter if Lupin knows whether or not the dementors can detect animagis - as an animagi, Black is able to hide himself and make it easier for no one to spot him. And Lupin knows this! He doesn't share this information with Dumbledore (who is known to give people second chances.) Evil!Lupin wants to find black first... but even if you take Lupin's words at face value, there should be cause for alarm: Good!Lupin is suspicious here - because Lupin chooses to protect his own hide at the potential expense of others' lives. Pippin, noting the likeliness of Pettigrew's redemption, wrote: > Shouldn't there be at least one dyed-in-the-wolf, er, wool, member > of MWPP who goes bad and chooses to remain so? Though I'm sure > he'll [Lupin] be offered the chance to repent. Cathy: > I don't know if Pettigrew will be redeemed or not. I see him as > a sniveling little coward that hangs out with the biggest bully > around. He handed over one of his best friends to Voldemort. It > just doesn't say a lot for his character. The biggest bully around? Does that mean that you see MWPP (er, MPP, that is) as bullies? I think Pettigrew lacks confidence and enjoys the ego-lift of hanging out with the "popular" crowd. In his youth, this resulted in MWPP. He roots for the winning team, because he's too afraid of having to look inwards and find his own strength (or, worse so, discover his worst fears are true and he has no inner strength...) should his team lose. He sided with Voldemort, not because he was the "biggest bully around" but more so because "everyone" was siding with Voldemort. V was captain of the winning team, and Pettigrew, afraid of losing, felt this was the safest way to go. As for poor Pettigrew's redemption, one of two things (or both) would have to happen: either the good side will be obviously winning and Pettigrew will switch sides again (his past behavior shows precedent for this decision) or Pettigrew will discover an inner strength that allows him to choose sides based on moral convictions rather than popularity. The first option I presented is unlikely - mostly because I can't imagine "the old gang" welcoming him back into the fold, even if Pettigrew were to make a grand gesture. They just wouldn't trust him. This would be a dangerous place to be in - hated by one side and not trusted (or protected) by the other. I find my second option much more interesting... especially since it actually has some precendence. Pettigrew is currently a Voldemort supporter, and that goes against popular opinion. Sure, he has been hiding out so he doesn't have to face the anti-V WW, but he has still gone against public opinion. (In addition, now that his animagi status has been uncovered, he no longer has that cover to rely upon should he make another poor decision.) This action, small though it may seem, may be enough for him to have the seeds planted inside himself to later on discover an inner strength and be able to think for himself. The concept of making choices/ doing what is right vs. doing what is easy is a common HP theme. example: > "Remember, if the time comes when you have to make a choice between > what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy > who, and kind, and brave, because he strayed across the path of > Lord Voldemort. Remember Cedric Diggory." - Dumbledore addressing the students, US Hardcover GoF, page 724.) IMHO this theme will be fully explored. This necessitates seeing all different kinds of Evil! and Good! characters making all different kind of "right" and "easy" choices, as well as choosing/ not choosing redemption. (Side note: although Dumbledore is obviously referencing Cedric with this statement, he could just as easily be talking about an Evil! character... Remember, Dumbledore's should not always be taken solely at face value for they often mean more than their literal interpretation. In this instance, rearrange the words a bit (and removing "brave") and he could just as easily be talking about Pettigrew or Evil!Lupin...) In regards to Pettigrew: is there any other character (save Voldemort) whose making a "right" choice and eventually being redeemed would be more meaningful and carry more weight? Even the redemption of Lucius Malfoy would not rival this. In regards to Lupin: is there another character whom Harry trusts more (save Dumbdledore) whose making "easy" choices, Evil! status, and not opting for redemption would carry more weight? Any Evil! student (even Ron or Hermione!) could be explained as youthful fear, etc., giving them an easier option for forgiveness. But Lupin is an adult and is fully aware of the consequences of his behavior. You could make the argument that Evil!Black would be more terrifying to Harry, but, as discussed in previous posts, Black has already been, ah, black listed by the WW, thus making his Evil! status less surprising to the WW population. There have been so many surprises, twists, and turns in the first 4 HP books, and I believe the best/worst are yet to come. Would it not be in true HP form for a beloved character to be more than he seems? Restating an aforementioned comment, we have been taught to love him - or at least empathize with his ostracization - but could the biggest clue be masked within this? I think he really could be a *wolf* in Good!Wizard's clothing. - Nobody's Rib, who is delighted to have looked out the window and discovered that it is snowing :) From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 8 19:29:35 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 19:29:35 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Grindelwald reprise References: <1047110238.2342.5523.m6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001201c2e5a9$0de154a0$bb4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 53444 Jodel said: >I thing that the 1945 date firmly ties the Grindlewald clue (if it is >actually a clue to anything) into the Riddle plotline. From what we already >know, the events which took place in 1945 are; > >1. Tom Riddle finishes his 7th year at Hogwarts. >2. Tom Riddle, no longer an underage wizard, kills his father and >grandparents in Little Hangleton, using the AK curse. >3. Tom Riddle drops off the face of the earth. >4. Albus Dumbledore defeats the Dark wizard Grindlewald. >Add to this the observation that Riddle learned what he knew of the Dark Arts >from *somewhere*. He was Muggle-raised and did not arrive at Hogwarts with It's interesting to speculate about whether and where there are repositories of "dark" knowledge where an aspiring power seeker like Tom Riddle would find what he was looking for. It would suggest that there is some sort of wizardly "underworld" where someone like Riddle might find the kind of contacts that would lead him into the "dark" conspiracy of his day (and I'm fairly sure that conspiracies go on all the time, though they only sometimes erupt into full blown insurgencies - we don't even know whether Grindelwald went as far as Voldemort before he was defeated). When Voldemort was reduced, he ended up in Albania. Why there, I wonder? Maybe that's where he was in the missing years. Maybe there was some sort of "dark" seminary to which he was passed in the late 1940s through the wizardly underground and where he did his dark arts training. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 19:36:45 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 19:36:45 -0000 Subject: Point of Order: "The Marauders" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53445 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ingachristsuperstar" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nobodysrib" < > nobodysrib at y...> wrote: > > Mr. Ed asked > > > If the HP character Seamus is ever the victim of the Avada > > > Kedavra curse and his friends stood watch over his body, how > > > would you punctuate what that watch would be called? ;) > > > > > Me: > > Forget punctuation issues. It would of course be: > > Finnigan's Wake > > ;) > > -Ing bboy_mn: So, if Seamus's family were also at the wake, would it be called the 'Finnigans's Wake' or could it be called the 'Finnigan Wake', and in that case, would 'Finnigan' be considered singular as the word implies or would it be plural since it refers to more than one member of the Finnigan family? And if 'Finnigan' could be considered plural then couldn't it rightly be called the 'Finnigan's Wake'. Which brings us fill cirle to the "Marauder's Map", and whether Marauder is intended to be singular or plural. Just a thought. bboy_mn From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 8 19:41:03 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 19:41:03 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort and Lily References: <1047127361.2353.23600.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002101c2e5aa$a7d2b440$bb4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 53446 Catlady wrote: > > d) ( ... this is so distasteful ... ) Some people think that Lily was > Voldemort's daughter and he had some paternal affection *yuck* > Haven't heard that theory. Would that mean that _Petunia_ is also Voldemort's daughter? And in turn, Dudley would be his grandson. Which would support those who say that Dudley is the character who is going to come late to magical powers, especially with as powerful a wizard as Tom Riddle as his bampi! Maybe in turn Dudley ends up as Death Eater!Dudley and Harry gets to kill him. SO much speculation, so little time Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 19:45:30 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 19:45:30 -0000 Subject: Harry not a seeker (WAS: Re: The Gryffindor Quidditch Team) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53447 Taryn wrote: > Why in the world would Harry cease being a Seeker? He's amazing at > it! One of the greatest Seekers in the WW even praised his flying > skills. > ...edited... > bboy_mn: > > Perfectly valid point, and I agree, but you missed my point. The > question isn't whether Harry wants to be a Seeker, the question is > whether he will be able to continue being Seaker when you consider > the potential players he has available to build a team out of. > [mentions Dean Thomas, Seamus Finnigan, Neville Longbottom, Colin > Creevey, and Dennis Creevey] > I agree 100% that Harry want to be the Seeker, but will he be able > to given the people who are available to build a team from? Do we know what year Krum was/is? (We know he was old enough to participate in GoF's tournament, but so were 6th year Gred and Forge.) Might Krum's interest in Hermione lead him to transfer to Hogwarts? Some might assume he'd be sorted into Slytherin (Durmstrang's reputation, he sat with Slytherin, etc.) but he could just as easily be sorted into Gryffindor. Given that, who would *you* prefer be your teams' seeker - the best seeker Hogwarts has seen in years... or a professional Quidditch player who has even played a World Cup game? Even if Harry were captain, can you see him not letting Krum be seeker? And, if Harry weren't a seeker, I just assume that his love of quidditch would keep him from saying "either I'm seeker or I don't play at all," leading him to take on a different position. [ btw, Can't you just see the upset this would cause to the Slytherin team? Not only is Krum sorted into the opposing house, but now Gryffindor has a *professional* player! (I bet Draco would get his daddy to buy the whole team firebolts as a defense.)] Of course, we don't know if transferring schools is allowed since we have not seen it happen before (I giggle when I think of Krum lining up with all the other first years, waiting to be sorted), and there may be canon showing Krum was a 7th year in GoF (which makes his interest in Hermione a bit creepy and pedophiliac-ish, IMHO...). - Nobody's Rib From flamingstarchows at att.net Sat Mar 8 19:55:02 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 13:55:02 -0600 Subject: Evil!lupin: a rebuttal References: Message-ID: <001601c2e5ac$9c6cb220$1b13570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 53448 ----- Original Message ----- From: nobodysrib Cathy: > I don't know if Pettigrew will be redeemed or not. I see him as > a sniveling little coward that hangs out with the biggest bully > around. He handed over one of his best friends to Voldemort. It > just doesn't say a lot for his character. nobodysrib: The biggest bully around? Does that mean that you see MWPP (er, MPP, that is) as bullies? Cathy replies to nobodysrib: I do not consider that Black, Potter, & Lupin were bullies. I think Pettigrew goes for who he considers the most powerful around. He didn't have any trouble betraying his friends to Voldemort when he thought the DEs were going to be more powerful. I guess "bully" wasn't the right choice of words, but I suspect most people got the general idea. Pettigrew is a sniveling little git who latches on to whoever he thinks is the stongest. He's not loyal to those that were his true friends at all - he is only interested in protecting his own hide. He went back to Voldemort because there was no where else to go where he would be protected once he was "outed" from being a rat. The DEs thought that he had betrayed them, too (according to what Sirius heard in Azkaban). It just doesn't say a lot for him that he hid out for 12 years as a rat. From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 20:17:17 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 20:17:17 -0000 Subject: Point of Order: "The Marauders" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53449 I'm in utter (and pleased) disbelief that this thread keeps going on and on... Mr. Ed. asked: > If the HP character Seamus is ever the victim of the Avada > Kedavra curse and his friends stood watch over his body, how would > you punctuate what that watch would be called? ;) I responded: > There are two possibilities: The friends are either standing > watch over "Seamus' body" or "Seamus's body." According to > _The Chicago Manual of Style_ (this is a bible of sorts for > apostrophists and other grammarians...) *either* is acceptable, and > the latter is preferred. (For full text explanation and citation of _The Chicago Manual of Style, see post #53409.) Ing wrote: > Forget punctuation issues. It would of course be: > Finnigan's Wake (Me: I love you, Ing! Fabulous!) > bboy_mn wrote: > So, if Seamus's family were also at the wake, would it be called the > 'Finnigans's Wake' Me: In this case, it is the 'Finnigans' wake.' [note: apostrophe for a singular that ends in s can be "singularthatendsins's" while an apostrophe for a plural that ends in s is always "pluralthatendsins'."] bboy_mn: > or could it be called the 'Finnigan Wake', and in that case, > would 'Finnigan' be considered singular as the word implies or > would it be plural since it refers to more than one member of the > Finnigan family? Me: In the case of "The Finnegan Wake" referring to the entire clan, the word would be considered singular (one family, one clan.) Enother example: the Hogwarts staff. Staff is singular although it refers to more than one person. So it would be "The Staff's Wake." bboy_mn: > And if 'Finnigan' could be considered plural then couldn't it > rightly be called the 'Finnigan's Wake'. Which brings us full cirle > to the "Marauder's Map", and whether Marauder is intended to be > singular or plural. Me: I love your train of logic! Indeed, I could see "The Finnegan's Wake" referring to the entire family... as in "The Finnegan Family's Wake." However, I only see this applying to the map if we consider "Marauder" as a substitute last name for MWPP (Moony Marauder, Wormtail Marauder, etc.). If this is the case (and we have no canon to support this) and if MWPP intended for the map to belong to the entire group, it would either be (1) "The Marauder Map," with "Marauder" being a singular noun referencing all of the Marauder clan (eg "The Finnegan Wake"), or (2) "The Marauder's Map," with "Marauder" again being a singular word referencing a group of people (eg "The Finnegan's Wake). - Nobody's Rib, who is delighted that others are as obsessed with punctuation as she is From marugg at fibertel.com.ar Sat Mar 8 18:40:50 2003 From: marugg at fibertel.com.ar (Marugg) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 15:40:50 -0300 Subject: Dumbledore an animagi? Message-ID: <003101c2e5a2$3e03e320$5591e818@fibertel.com.ar> No: HPFGUIDX 53450 Hi, other Harry Potter fans. First of all, I would like to apologize because I'm not a native speaker, so I may make some mistakes. I'm new to this group, which means that it's extremely probable that this topic has been discused before. My question : ?is Dumbledore an animagus?. He was the Transfiguration teacher before becoming Headmaster. McGonagall is the teacher now, and since she can turn into a cat, I thought it might be possible for Dumbledore to turn into an animal too. Mariana ( who hopes you all get to understand what I'm trying to say despite the fact that my English could be much better) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 15:53:37 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 15:53:37 -0000 Subject: Point of Order: "The Marauders" In-Reply-To: <20030308142813.S27521@crusaders.no> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53451 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Trond Michelsen wrote: > > But who is/was the Marauder they named the map after? I don't think it's > any spesific person at all, and certainly not the group. It's a map > that's very useful when you're out marauding, so whoever's using it at > the time is a marauder - hence "Marauder's map". > Yes, they would have thought that... Mapmakers would be a good name for them. Also, they managed to make the map AFTER having been out as animals/werewolf for some time. Secret Animagi made the map *possible*. I think they made the map and put it into Filch' office, into Highly Dangerous -box for the next generation to find and use... They never used the map. They just MADE it... or at least that's my idea of it... -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 16:10:12 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 16:10:12 -0000 Subject: What motivated Dobby in CoS? In-Reply-To: <20030307170611.90638.qmail@web10706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53452 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SeventhSqueal wrote: > SeventhSqueal: > If Dobby was hiding in the bushes against the will of his masters wouldn't the bushes be shredded from his trying to knock his head against the ground every day? > > There are only two ways I can justify this. > > One: Lucius Malfoy didn't want Harry Potter damaged during the following school year, and gave Dobby instructions to keep him out of Hogwarts by any means necessary. > > Two: Narcissa Malfoy put her house elf up to preventing Harry Potter from going to Hogwarts and getting hurt, because she's secretly sympathetic to Harry Potter and not her husband's little Mrs. We know she's a bit of a softie because she prevented Draco from being sent far away from her (at least this is the story that we were told) to Durmstrang and she sends him care packages full of sweets from home. This sounds like someone in the Malfoy house has the capacity for love. Plus, it could have been from her that Dobby learned that Harry is such a decent and noble person. Narcissa. Hmmmmmm. > > I notice there is no place for Narcissa next to Lucius on my Death Eater chart here. The Lestranges would have stood next to each other. Curious. > > Three: Add your idea here. I myself see Dobby acting very much as he were Harry Potter's house- elf. Dobby has NOT heard of Harry being decent. "Dobby has heard of your greatness, sir, but nothing of your goodness". Also, it was *obvious* to me that Dobby was NOT acting under Malfoy's orders. A house-elf is supposed to serve one family and one house for ever, but somehow Dobby's more bound to Harry than the Malfoys! Dobby chooses to use his freedom to serve Harry in any way Harry permits him to and obeys Harry... We don't know how a house-elf becomes bound. In Winky's case, it was hereditary, but with Dobby? It seems like Dobby's bound to Harry... and that's what makes him glad being free- he *can* serve his precious Harry Potter even though Harry Potter is too young to have a house... Was Dobby *born* in the Potter house that was destroyed and thus bound to Harry, even though he was forcibly separated from Harry until he hears Harry's in danger? -- Finwitch From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 8 21:10:36 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 21:10:36 -0000 Subject: Poor snivelling little Peter WAS Re: Evil!lupin: a rebuttal In-Reply-To: <006401c2e595$f7b642c0$2418570c@pavilion> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53453 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "FlamingStar Chows" wrote: > Cathy's reply: I don't know if Pettigrew will be redeemed or > not. I see him as a sniveling little coward that hangs out with > the biggest bully around. He handed over one of his best friends > to Voldemort. It just doesn't say a lot for his character. > > > ~Cathy~ No, it doesn't. It also doesn't say a lot for the character of one of his best friends that he was ever in a *position* to do this. The Fidelius charm asks an awful lot of its Secret Keeper. Basically the Secret Keeper has to be willing to risk death or torture to protect the recipient. James and Lily Potter had to ask someone to be prepared to die for them. In such cases, it's customary to ask for volunteers: Dumbledore is known to have volunteered. [PoA. Ch. 10, p.153 UK hardback]. Sirius Black appears to have volunteered and changed his mind at the last moment [Practically the whole of PoA from Chapter 10 onwards]. There is, however, no evidence whatsoever that Peter volunteered to be Secret Keeper. Sirius *never* says that the switch was Peter's plan. Quite the opposite; he blames himself for the idea: "James and Lily only made you Secret-Keeper because I suggested it ... I thought it was the perfect plan ... a bluff ... Voldemort would be sure to come after me, would never dream they'd use a weak, talentless thing like you ... "[PoA p. 271, Ch. 19] Admittedly, Sirius is not going to regard Peter very highly, after his betrayal of the Potters, but you do get the vague feeling that as far as Sirius is concerned, Peter *was* the Weakest Link. It's one of the weird things about the Switch. Peter, the spy, the one who *presumably* was eager to betray the Potter's to their death, doesn't seem to have actually suggested it. Possibly he didn't know about the upcoming Fidelius charm. The discussion between McGonagall, Fudge, Hagrid and Madame Rosemerta in the Three Broomsticks (Ch. 10 PoA) suggests that the suggestion (by Dumbledore) may have been in a private conference between the Potters and Dumbledore (possibly with Professor McGonagall also present). James may have then had another private conference with Sirius Black. However, there is evidence that Lupin, at least, knew about the Fidelius charm. His words to Sirius Black are: "unless *he* was the one ... unless you switched ... without telling me?" [PoA Ch.16 p. 252]. Those words suggest that Lupin knew about the Fidelius charm. So why wouldn't Peter Pettigrew? And if he wasn't trusted enough to be told about the Fidelius Charm, how could he be trusted enough to be the Secret Keeper? I keep going back to: *why?* What qualities did Peter have that would make him a good Secret Keeper? The least talented of the four boys. The kid who was always tagging around. The boy who hero- worshipped Black and Potter [see PoA Ch.10, p.154]. He wasn't even good at duelling ... [p.155] Precisely *what* qualities did Peter have that would make it obvious to Sirius that *this* was the person best trusted with the lives of three people. And the nasty thought keeps occurring to me: Peter was the person most likely to be bullied into it. Does either Peter or Sirius ever say that Peter 'asked', or 'wanted' or 'offered' to be Secret Keeper? Not that I recall. Sirius never once, in his self-mortification at the deaths of Harry's parents, blames himself for agreeing to *Peter's* suggestion. Peter seems to have been, err, 'volunteered' for this not-exactly-safe post. So that's how one of Peter's closest friends saw him. The weak link. The one who wouldn't be suspected because he was so pathetic. The one whose life was less valuable than that of the Potters. And James and Lily? James suggested Sirius Black as Secret Keeper, not Peter Pettigrew. Black says twice that they had to be 'persuaded' into using Peter. Sounds like James and Lily had doubts about Peter as well. But they were still prepared to use him. Look at it from Peter's point of view. Were his friends *really* loyal to him? Would they put their lives ahead of his in the crunch? No. They were quite prepared to say: 'We have a plan. Voldemort is going to only be able to get at the Potters over someone's dead body. And guess what, Peter?' This is real loyalty? To ask the friend you know to be weakest to be the strongest? To ask him (of all of you) to possibly face Voldemort when he's known to be the weakest at magic, the weakest in a fight? And OK, so Peter had already been spying on them for a year. But did he already know, sense, feel that the general opinion of Peter Pettigrew was that he was the least important of the four friends. That they might ask *him* to support *them* to the death, but if he'd asked *them*, what would they have answered? 'Sorry, Peter but the work James is doing is absolutely vital ...' Did he even feel really safe with them at school? A rat animagi with a dog animagi and a werewolf? Dogs (and wolves) kill rats. Were they really, truly, his friends? Why doesn't he seem to be the one who suggested the Switch? Was he hoping that he might actually be able to keep the Potters alive without seeming to betray Voldemort? Go to Voldemort with the news of the Fidelius, and 'Sirius Black is the Secret Keeper, but he's in hiding, My Lord, I don't know where he is'? And then Black blows that hope (and Peter's final illusions about his friends' willingness to protect him) out of the water by making him the Secret Keeper. So yes, Pettigrew may well have been a snivelling little coward who hung out with the biggest bullies around. But turn that comment around. The biggest bullies around ... What does *that* say about the character of James, Sirius and Remus? Pip From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 21:32:30 2003 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 21:32:30 -0000 Subject: how does Winky know Dobby? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53454 I had this thought while reading the thread about Dobby's motivation to help Harry. In the top box at the Quiddich World Cup Harry mistakes Winky for Dobby, and then Winky says that she knows Dobby and tells Harry what he's been up to since he was freed. I'm wondering (as you may have guessed from the subject line) how Winky could possibly know Dobby? Winky belonged to Mr. Crouch - famed prosecutor of Death Eaters. Dobby belonged to the Malfoys - famed member of You- Know-Who's inner circle who somehow managed to escape Azkaban. So, are we to think that either of these men payed social calls to the other, thus giving their house elves the chance to meet? maybe we are to assume that - which might explain how Lucius escaped Azkaban. But that does not fit in the least with Crouch's character. So what are the other possibilities? As far as I can see, they either had mutual friends and went to the same parties (but surely Crouch wouldn't have brought Winky - she'd have been home taking care of Crouch Jr.) or else Dobby used to belong to someone else. And if so, to whom? I don't imagine there are house-elf conventions. -Ing From hphgrwlca at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 21:22:19 2003 From: hphgrwlca at yahoo.com (Christine Acker) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 13:22:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: twins/time-turner, Trelawny, and JKR In-Reply-To: <1047110238.2342.5523.m6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030308212219.71910.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53455 Hello all. Christine here. I would like to venture a few questions: This isn't a question, but it does have to do with recent posts. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that JKR said that wizard children do not go to school before Hogwarts. This might be a British thing. Maybe they do in other countries. If this is so, how do they learn to read and do simple math and things like that? Parents? What if someone's parents are like the Dursleys and don't teach them anything? Do they take remedial courses? Does anyone else thing Gred and Forge had their sneaky little hands on a time-turner in GoF when they correctly predicted a completely unlikely outcome to the match AND bet their life savings on it? If the twins are anything like Ron, and I think they are a little, their money is precious to them. They wouldn't waste it, especially if they had a very specific use planned for it (Weasleys' Wizard Wheezes.) Hmmmmmmm. Why does Dumbledore keep Trelawny around? She is pretty much a fraud except for the one accurate prediction she makes (which she doesn't even remember.) Tell me, if you were to recommend yourself for her position, wouldn't you want to have some sort of valid prediction under your belt? So, has she made any predictions before? What did she predict? Did it happen? The one we saw sure happened. Sorry if any of this has been discussed before. I'm sure it has. I'm relatively new to the group and have made a couple of posts, and I haven't seen any of this discussed yet so I thought I'd bring it up. Anyway............ Christine, who absolutely adores Caius Marcius's filk and has sent it to all her fellow HP/Chicago fans __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From Zarleycat at aol.com Sat Mar 8 22:34:55 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 22:34:55 -0000 Subject: Poor snivelling little Peter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53456 Pip said: > It's one of the weird things about the Switch. Peter, the spy, the > one who *presumably* was eager to betray the Potter's to their > death, doesn't seem to have actually suggested it. I don't see anything surprising in that. For all we know, Peter may have spent weeks wracking his brains to try to figure out a way to take on the Secret Keeper's role. And for weeks he couldn't come up with a plan because he *knew* James would trust Sirius for this role beyond anyone else and wouldn't consider for a moment switching to Peter or Dumbledore or anyone else. So Peter knew there was no point in even suggesting it. Then, Death Eaters be praised, Sirius comes up with a plan that plays right into Peter's waiting hands. I still believe the whole point of the switch wasn't to place Peter in the first line of fire. Or to say that his life was worth less than anyone else's, so let's bully him into taking on this task. Making the switch was to create confusion. Voldemort and his minions were likely to try to find Sirius because he was the logical choice of Secret Keeper. Okay, then Sirius becomes the first line of defense for both Peter and the Potters by acting as a decoy. If they never find him, everyone stays safe, relatively speaking. If he's caught and dies under torture without giving up any information, then he's succeeded in protecting not only the Potters but Peter. You said yourself that you keep coming back to *why* choose Peter, when nothing in his background seems to suggest he has what it takes to make a good Secret Keeper. It almost makes no sense, so why do it? Which is precisely what Sirius wanted the Death Eaters to think. Marianne From amani at charter.net Sat Mar 8 22:49:34 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 17:49:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Gryffindor Quidditch Team References: Message-ID: <000e01c2e5c4$fd8381c0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53457 > bboy_mn: > Also, remember that there are only 3 other guys in Harry & Ron's year, > so they are probably going to have to build a substanial part of the > team from underclassmen. Since Harry and, by year 6, Ron are the > experienced players, I find it hard to believe Harry will be able to > continue as seeker. > > Me: > Why in the world would Harry cease being a Seeker? He's amazing at > it! One of the greatest Seekers in the WW even praised his flying > skills. > ...edited... > > --Taryn bboy_mn: Perfectly valid point, and I agree, but you missed my point. The question isn't whether Harry wants to be a Seeker, the question is whether he will be able to continue being Seaker when you consider the potential players he has available to build a team out of. Me: You missed /my/ point, too. ;) I wasn't talking about Harry /wanting/ to play Seeker. It's a poor move from the sporting side of it, as well. Harry's just /too good/. I very much doubt, from an authorship point of view, that his options are going to be limited to those people you've named. I would bet we'll either be introduced to some people next year (as it'd be a poor move from the writer perspective to introduce new people for players in the sixth book) or there won't /be/ any Quidditch which, considering the rise of Voldemort, isn't all that unlikely. Besides the fact that I laugh at the idea of Colin (or Dennis, for that matter) handling himself as a Seeker when they are the most injured players in the game. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amani at charter.net Sat Mar 8 22:53:06 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 17:53:06 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cabbage smell,twins and time-turners References: <20030306060341.54597.qmail@web40502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002301c2e5c5$7bb87780$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53458 Morgan D wrote: In PS/CS ch 2, Harry describes Mrs Figg as "a mad old lady who lived two streets away", and he says her "whole house smelled of cabbage". In CoS ch 12, Harry drinks Polyjuice Potion and thinks "it tasted like overcooked cabbage". That was enough to convince many readers that Arabella isn't an old lady at all. Sparrow: This is a fine a theory as any of the others, but really, we have to think of the fact that cabbage is a funny thing, not to mention nasty. Me: I'm sure there are /many/ who would dispute that fact. I personally don't care for cabbage, but tons of people enjoy eating it (including my dad). (My mom says the trick to cooking it is /not/ to overcook it.) /Maybe/ Mrs. Figg just happens to /enjoy/ cabbage. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 23:04:10 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 23:04:10 -0000 Subject: how does Winky know Dobby? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53459 Ing wrote: > So, are we to think that either of these men payed social calls to > the other, thus giving their house elves the chance to meet? > > maybe we are to assume that - which might explain how Lucius > escaped Azkaban. But that does not fit in the least with Crouch's > character. So what are the other possibilities? > > As far as I can see, they either had mutual friends and went to > the same parties (but surely Crouch wouldn't have brought > Winky - she'd have been home taking care of Crouch Jr.) or else > Dobby used to belong to someone else. And if so, to whom? > > I don't imagine there are house-elf conventions. Exactly! I have previously pondered this very question only a few short weeks ago. I managed to come up with more than 15 possibilities as to how Dobby and Winky can know each other and, from my POV maybe only 2 or 3 could possibly be true. My final conclusion is that it's just a conveinient plot device/flint. Here's an essay I wrote but never posted: CONCERNING HOUSE-ELVES "If you accuse my elf, you accuse me..." - Barty Crouch, Snr. An exploration of what Winky and Dobby's relationship could actually mean. It struck me as odd that Dobby and Winky know each other and are seemingly friends with one another. After all, their previous masters were the Crouches and the Malfoys. It hardly seems as though there would be much socialising between the two groups, at least after Voldemort's downfall. Before that time, there was Barty Jnr (who would have had explicit reason to consort with the Malfoys). Of course, after Voldemort's downfall he was under the Imperious curse, so that severs that connection, but Dobby and Winky appear to have an active friendship. What concerns me most about this relationship is that because house-elves are enslaved servants, their familiarity and *current* friendship seems to suggest a similar relationship between their masters .("If you accuse my elf, you accuse me...") It concerns me. I thought of every possible way of linking Dobby and Winky as I possibly could. Some are boring (they do their shopping at the same place). Some are Bangy (Bartemus Crouch Snr was actually a double- agent). All of them somehow allow Dobby and Winky to have a current and familia friendship. They are outlined below with no real intention to find an answer, just support and refute for each theory as I see it. Things to consider.* (see end of post for how I deducted these things.) They are obviously good friends. We don't know when they met. We do (roughly) know how house-elves are viewed by wizards, at different social and political stages of history (ie. During the Voldemort wars, after the Voldemort wars). We know Dobby and Winky have kept in contact after Dobby was sacked. We know that Dobby knows where Winky lives. We know that Dobby could find Winky after he heard she was sacked. We know that they keep in contact fairly regularly. 1. Dobby and Winky do their shopping together. The Concept: Dobby meets Winky whilst in the fruit and vegetables isle at the local grocery store. Wizards certainly eat, so someone has to get the food. Canon shows that Dobby cooks the food. So it's likely he also buys it. This must mean that there are wizarding shops (A house-elf in a muggle shop would hardly go unnoticed after all). Perhaps they simple apparate into Hogsmeade. Why it can't be true: Consider these pieces of canon: Barty Crouch, Jnr, whilst under Veritaserum (Chapter 35 "Veritaserum.") Says- "'I was always with the house-elf. She was my keeper and carer.'" And also- "'I had not left the house for years.'" Barty is always with Winky. Barty hasn't left the house for years. Hence, Winky hasn't left the house for years. Therefore, Winky can't shop unless she does it from home. Therefore she can't meet Dobby under this circumstance. (I realise that this might be a bit exaggerated, but seeing as he *was* under veritaserum, it's pretty straightforward to assume that he's telling the truth.) 2. There is a social network for house-elves. The Concept: Communication between elves is a common place activity and you can look people up in the yellow pages, or meet on a chat- line. Why it can't be true. Firstly, Winky has never left the house for years, and she is never without Barty (see above). What's more: "'House-elves is not supposed to have fun, Harry Potter,' said Winky firmly." (GoF, Chapter 8, "The Quidditch World Cup."). Dobby says he is 'treated like vermin.' (Cos, Chapter 10, "The Rogue Bludger.") If there is a house-elf interaction service, Dobby wouldn't be permitted to use it because the Malfoys are cruel, and Winky wouldn't *want* to use it because she's devoted to the belief that she doesn't deserve it. 3. The Ministry Of Magic, Department of Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures has regular house-elf meets where they ensure house- elves are fulfilling their duties. Why it's unlikely to be true: Something that might happen only once a year is hardly enough for Dobby and Winky to become best of buddies. What's more- Winky hasn't left the house. 4. They know each other from when they were in training. The Concept: There is a training institute where they met and became friends Why it's unlikely to be true: That would be a significantly long time ago. And besides, Dobby seems a little bit outcast in the house-elf community, so I hardly think 'I- love-enslavement' Winky would socialise with him. Winky's mother and her mother's mother all worked for the Crouches (GoF, Chapter 21, "The House-Elf Liberation Front."), surely that would be a more likely training program. 5. They know each other because they once both worked for the same family. The Concept: If they family was killed or imprisoned during the VWI then they would have to be relocated. They therefore wouldn't suffer the 'indignity' of being set free, but still have to find new employment. Why it can't be true: Winky explicitly says she has worked for the Crouches her entire life. "'I is looking after the Crouches all my life, and my mother is doing it before me, and my grandmother is doing it before her.'" (GoF, Chapter 21, "The House-Elf Liberation Front.") Then perhaps Dobby worked for them too, but was relocated? George says this about house-elves: "House elves come with big old mansions and castle and places like that, you wouldn't catch one in our house." (CoS, Chapter 2, "Dobby's Warning") It sounds as though the house-elf comes with the house. Dobby also says (in the same chapter) "'The wizard family Dobby serves, sir ... Dobby is a house-elf - bound to serve one house and one family forever ...'" He also makes it clear that he is bound to the property as well as the family. Also of note- When Dobby is freed with Winky and looking for work together Winky says "Where is there enough work for two house-elves?" Dobby's answer- "Hogwarts!" So, it sounds as though it's uncommon for families to have more than one elf- only large institutions do. 6. Winky and Dobby met through Crouch and Malfoy's work relationship. The Concept: They both work at the Ministry. There is suggestion that one takes their house-elf with them. (CoS, Chapter 18, "Dobby's Reward." - Dobby follows Lucius to Hogwarts). Why it can't be true: Winky's priorities lie at home being carer and keeper for Barty Crouch, Jnr not with Crouch Snr. (And, the same point again, she hasn't left for years). (And anyway, is there actually any proof that Lucius works at the ministry, or is there only suggestion???) 7. Business meetings of some description between Crouch and Malfoy. The Concept: Barty is hosting business meetings at his home which Lucius is attending, and he's bringing his slave with him, letting Dobby and Winky meet on Winky's home turf. Why is can't be true: Bartemus Crouch Snr "despises and detests the Dark Arts" and has purges everything in his life that could relate him to anything Dark- his son, Winky. I hardly think he'd associate in any way with publically-believed-to-be-a-Death-Eater-(even-if-he-was-never- convited) Lucius Malfoy (and would tell his servants to do the same). Besides, Barty has got his son hidden in the house- he can't risk anyone finding out. (Bertha Jonkins is there for half a second and she stumbles across it...). 8. They're related. It still requires some kind of social interaction, which Dobby wouldn't have been allowed (And is extremely boring...). 9. They're in love. (?) Or they're involved in a house-elf breeding program. (Well, there has to be some way of house-elves reproducing, and the "House-Elf Dating Service" is hardly to be likely, when house- elf aren't meant to have fun :D ) Why it's a stupid theory: (not that that wasn't already obvious...) Well, if there's a breeding program, then, they still wouldn't be in such close and frequent interaction. It's be a one time thing, yes? 10. Lucius is actually good. The Concept: He's just pretending to be bad. Crouch Snr knows this and has been inviting him over for tea. Why it can't be true: Umm... Do I even need to attempt to list all the reasons why he's a racist, prejudiced, vicious git? Besides, even if he was good, the public doesn't know that, so Barty still has his reputation at stake. 11. Barty Crouch Snr was actually evil. The Concept: He invites Lucius over for tea to talk dirty about the Dark side, hence letting Dobby and Winky become well acquainted. Barty was just pretending to be so against the Dark side to win public support to become Minister for Magic, with the full intention of releasing all the Death-Eaters he sent to Azkaban. Consider these extracts from what Sirius says (GoF, Chapter 27, "Padfoot Returns"): He describes him as "'He's a great wizard Barty Crouch, powerfully magical - and power-hungry.'" Power-hungry being my point. Sounds like the type to be seduced by the Dark side. Sirius also says: "'Barty Crouch was always very outspoken against the Dark side. But then a lot of people who were against the Dark side ...'" Is it meant to be foreshadowing his true evilness, or just a subtle foreshadowing that he's not *entirely* good? Also, consider this line (from the same chapter- said by Sirius): "He [Moody] was tough, but he never descended to the level of the Death-Eaters. Crouch, though ... he's a different matter ..." Now that's nice foreshadowing if he *is* a Death-Eater. (or was... He is now, dead...) Why it's unlikely to be true: Things Barty Crouch, Snr did in his ascent to power in the ministry: (all stated by Sirius in same chapter as above) - 'Started ordering very harsh measures against Voldemort's supporters.' - 'Aurors were given new powers- powers to kill rather than capture, for instance. And I wasn't the only one who was handed straight to the Dementors without trial.' - 'Crouch fought violence with violence and authorised the use of the Unforgivable Curses against suspects.' Killing Voldemort's supporters? Hardly sounds like someone who was actually one and was going to release them all once he was in power- you can't release dead people. If he was evil, why didn't he let his son seek out Voldemort? (He can't be a 'reformed-evil' type, as Winky and Dobby need a current up to date relationship, not one more than a decade past.). Besides, Barty Crouch Jnr hates his father. If he were truly evil, wouldn't he adore him? 12. Dobby and Winky are spies for a common source. The Concept: House-elves can apparate into places wizards can't. They get to know intimate secrets of their owners. Pretty good position to be in for a spy. Why it's *highly* unlikely. Because Winky is devoted to Crouch, and Dobby definitely considered the Malfoys to be his masters, so followed his orders. If they were spies, they were *really bad* at it. Winky goes to tears and gets drunk when she's separated from the Crouches- she too devoted to betray them. And even after Dobby was freed for more than a year, he still has trouble speaking ill of the Malfoys, as much as he hated them. (GoF, Chapter 21). 13. Barty Crouch Snr is a double-agent. The Concept: He's pretending to be on Lucius's side to gain inside knowledge. He's been inviting him over to chat etc letting Dobby and Winky meet. When catching the Death-Eaters, Crouch knew he would never be able to catch them all. So he purposely let Lucius go free so he could monitor the Death-Eater activities. He told the evil side he was implementing all the violent punishments to gain public supports, and would let off people once he was in power. If Dumbledore's in on it, it would explain why Crouch Snr trust him so much (he runs straight to Dumbledore once he's escaped from Voldemort holding him under house-arrest.) Why it's unlikely be true. He openly despises the Dark Arts. Passionately. "'And I trust you remember the many proofs I have given over a long career, that I despise and detest the Dark Arts.'" It'd be hard to convince him to do it- his reputation is what's important to him, not justice. (Handing people over to the Dementors without trial is hardly justice. Neither is using the Unforgivable Curses on suspects. Etc.) (But then again, if it was all a subterfuge) 14. Lucius cut Bartemus a deal to keep him out of Azkaban. The Concept: Lucius paid Barty off to stay out of Azkaban. Either by bribery or blackmail. Therefore Lucius (with Dobby) have to make regular visits to the Crouch household to install payments of reinstate pressure not to talk. Crouch Snr certainly is corruptible- he let's his son out of Azkaban, and lies to the whole wizarding world about it. Why it's unlikely to be true: Because there's no way Bartemius Crouch would let anything get in the way of his career! (Although, let's say that Lucius was blackmailing Crouch Snr about his *son* being alive...) 15. The Crouches and the Malfoys are related. (my personal favourite). The Concept: Think of it like this- Mrs Crouch and Narcissa Malfoy are actually sisters. Narcissa goes over to visit her sister, and after her death, to visit her brother-in-law. OR Narcissa Malfoy is actually Narcissa Crouch. OR Mrs Coruch was actually Miss Malfoy (sister to Lucius). That would enable the two families to get to know each other, and therefore the house-elves. Both families are 'old-wizarding families,' Mrs Crouch only desribed as having 'wispy' hair- is she too blonde like the Malfoys?? 16. It's a flint. JKR didn't realise that when she wrote Winky and Dobby as knowing each other that that also incriminated the Crouches and Malfoys as knowing each other as well. *Note: On the nature of Dobby and Winky's relationship. --They are obviously good friends. Winky offers Dobby advice on what to do with his freedom (find a family settle down). She's concerned for his well-being- saddened by his "misfortune." Dobby was going to visit Winky. --We don't know when they met. BUT, it was pretty much *before* Dobby was freed. How do I infer this? Well. Dobby "travelled the countryside fro two whole years, sir, trying to find work." (GoF, 21). And then he says delightedly he went "to visit Winky, and finds out Winky has been freed, too!" How is Dobby going to become friends with a stranger called Winky who won't leave the house because of her duties? They need to be friends beforehand. After Dobby is freed he visits Winky. But, he could just apparate on in whenever he felt like it, without any regard for pre-existing relationships between their masters. --We do (roughly) know how house-elves are viewed by wizards, at different social and political stages of history (ie. During the Voldemort wars, after the Voldemort wars). By this I mean that during Voldemort's power days they were treated like vermin, but after his defeat the lifestyles have improved. It's not really relevant in any of the points I have to make, but it's pretty much fact if you were considering it. --We know Dobby and Winky have kept in contact after Dobby was sacked. Because Winky knows he's sacked, and his attitude towards it. This doesn't really raise any concerns, as covered above. --We know that Dobby knows where Winky lives. Well, he chooses to visit her. --We know that Dobby could find Winky after he heard she was sacked. After he finds out she's free he finds her. Seeing as she was dismissed at the Quidditch World Cup she's on her own pretty much straight away. --We know that they keep in contact fairly regularly. Winky says "But I knows Dobby too, sir!" Knows. Sounds current. "But Dobby talks of you all the time, sir!" She said, lowering her hands very slightly awestruck." Awestruck. If she's awestruck she's obviously heard a lot. To hear a lot, she must have spoken with Dobby a lot. She's up to date with Dobby's well-being. She knows he's been freed. She knows what he's been up to with that freedom. Well. That's all I could come up with. What does it all mean????? Tell me!!!!!!! If either number 13 or 14 are true it provides future plot usage for both Dobby and Winky. They know their master's secret. They are the key, so to speak. Once recovered and willing to divulge these secrets they can provide intrinsic and unique inside information on the Dark side. Like, proof of people's Death-Eaterness and stuff. Alternatively, if they are just cousins, then there's no foreseeable use for them anymore. If number 15 is true, then maybe the Crouches will come back into it. (Which should please Elkins :) ) Whew! Well, that was very long wasn't it! ~<(Laurasia)>~ From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 23:06:36 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 23:06:36 -0000 Subject: Poor snivelling little Peter WAS Re: Evil!lupin: a rebuttal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53460 > > Cathy wrote: I don't know if Pettigrew will be redeemed or > > not. I see him as a sniveling little coward that hangs out with > > the biggest bully around. He handed over one of his best friends > > to Voldemort. It just doesn't say a lot for his character. Pip wrote: > No, it doesn't. It also doesn't say a lot for the character of one > of his best friends that he was ever in a *position* to do this. > > The Fidelius charm asks an awful lot of its Secret Keeper. > Basically the Secret Keeper has to be willing to risk death or > torture to protect the recipient. In such cases, it's > customary to ask for volunteers. There is, however, no > evidence whatsoever that Peter volunteered to be Secret Keeper. > Sirius *never* says that the switch was Peter's > plan. Quite the opposite; he blames himself for the idea: > > "James and Lily only made you Secret-Keeper because I suggested > it ... I thought it was the perfect plan ... a bluff ... Voldemort > would be sure to come after me, would never dream they'd use a > weak, talentless thing like you ... "[PoA p. 271, Ch. 19] > It's one of the weird things about the Switch. Peter, the spy, the > one who *presumably* was eager to betray the Potter's to their > death, doesn't seem to have actually suggested it. Time for me to jump in: Peter as the spy... I've always thought of him in this way, too, mostly because "'[Dumbledore] was sure that somebody close to the Potters had been keeping You-Know-Who informed of their movements,' said Professor McGonagall darkly. 'Indeed, he had suspected for some time that someone on our side had turned traitor and was passing a lot of information to You-Know-Who,'" US Hardcover PoA page 205. This information, in addition to Pettigrew betraying his Secret Keeper's promise, led me to believe that Pettigrew was the one passing information to Voldemort. However, Dumbledore had "several" spies. Why wouldn't Voldemort, too? Pip: > However, there is evidence that Lupin, at least, knew about the > Fidelius charm. His words to Sirius Black are: "unless *he* was the > one ... unless you switched ... without telling me?" > [PoA Ch.16 p. 252]. Me: So... there is another candidate for the betrayal position.... I see this as a possible set of events. Someone tips off Dumbledore that there is a snitch in the inner circle. Fidelius Charm suggested. Black and Dumbledore both want to be the Secret Keeper. Black opts out and suggests Pettigrew. Pettigrew, up to this point, has only had allegiance to his MWPP alliance and was not the one who "turned traitor" (do we have canon, btw, that says Pettigrew had been an informant for a year?), and now has been asked to risk death to save the Potters' lives. [theory continued momentarily] Pip wrote: > And the nasty thought keeps occurring to me: Peter was the person > most likely to be bullied into it [being the Secret Keeper]. > So that's how one of Peter's closest friends saw him. The weak > link. The one who wouldn't be suspected because he was so pathetic. > The one whose life was less valuable than that of the Potters. > > Look at it from Peter's point of view. Were his friends *really* > loyal to him? Would they put their lives ahead of his in the crunch? > > No. They were quite prepared to say: 'We have a plan. Voldemort is > going to only be able to get at the Potters over someone's dead > body. And guess what, Peter?' > > This is real loyalty? To ask the friend you know to be weakest to > be the strongest? To ask him (of all of you) to possibly face > Voldemort when he's known to be the weakest at magic, the weakest > in a fight? Me, continuing with my theory: You know, giving your own life so that another may live is a noble sacrifice. *Asking* someone to do this is... just plain icky. I mean, even if they think keeping the Potters alive is somehow a key to destroying Voldemort, the main reason they want to destroy Voldemort is to protect the WW from his evil acts. (I bet they wouldn't be nearly as concerned about him if he never did evil things and just sat at home all day nibbling on muffins.) Indeed, they want to protect the *weaker* people in the WW from Voldemort... people just like Pettigrew... and so, to protect the weak, they ask one of those weak people to make a sacrifice... And they know Pettigrew is weak, and whether or not he wants to do it, they'll be able to convince him he *must* do it... "Do it, Pettigrew. Voldemort may kill you for it, but if you don't do it it's just postponing him killing you. There's no way to prevent your dying by Voldemort's hands..." Ah, but there is a way! If Voldemort had a person on the inside that wasn't Pettigrew [ahem, Lupin knew about the Fidelius Charm, ahem], that person could have easily told Voldemort... and so Voldemort, now aware of the Fidelius Charm as well as the Secret Keeper's identity, comes to Pettigrew as a 'friend': "Peter - you do have another option. Tell me where they are hiding, and I will spare your life. They do not value you, Peter, but I see that your life *is* important. Your 'friends' say I am evil, but, I ask you, is it more evil to wish death to a friend or wish death to an enemy? All you know about my cause has been tainted by your 'friends' - tainted by those who wish you dead... I offer you life in exchange for your allegiance. Yes, Peter, I value your life. In fact, I think it is far more important that you live than those silly Potters do..." And thus Pettigrew, trying to understand how his most trusted friends want him to risk death, is offered 'friendship' by another, told by another that his life has meaning... In fact, after living in the shadow of MPP for so many years, this may have been the first time that he was ever placed higher up on the ladder than his supposed friends who don't even care if he dies... What would you do? Actually, even if there weren't another informant around (ahem, IMHO Voldemort would be *very* interested in having an informant with more skill and cunning than Pettigrew... ahem, Evil!Lupin, ahem) this theory works, as Pip shows: Pip wrote: > Why doesn't [Pettigrew] seem to be the one who suggested the > Switch? Was he hoping that he might actually be able to keep the > Potters alive without seeming to betray Voldemort? Go to Voldemort > with the news of the Fidelius, and 'Sirius Black is the Secret > Keeper, but he's in hiding, My Lord, I don't know where he is'? Marianne wrote: > I still believe the whole point of the switch wasn't to place Peter > in the first line of fire. Or to say that his life was worth less > than anyone else's, so let's bully him into taking on this task. > Making the switch was to create confusion. Voldemort and his > minions were likely to try to find Sirius because he was the > logical choice of Secret Keeper. Me: I agree that this was James and Sirius' main intention (creating confusion, trying to trick Voldemort, etc.) - but it doesn't change the fact that they are asking the "weak link" to risk his life. Regardless of J and S's *reasons* for the switch, we have to consider Pettigrew's perspective and how this all made him feel. It has been my experience that bullies rarely see themselves as such. Rather, they feel that they have the moral high ground and are just doing what needs to be done to further their cause. They feel they are more important than other people, and also like to keep the company of those who will look up to them and help them accomplish their goals. The toadies may even feel they are somewhat equal - until the time comes that the bully must choose between hurting him/herself or hurting the toady... or until the time that the bully sees the toady must be sacrificed... Back to Pip: > So yes, Pettigrew may well have been a snivelling little coward who > hung out with the biggest bullies around. But turn that comment > around. > > The biggest bullies around ... > > What does *that* say about the character of James, Sirius and > Remus? Not much, I'm afraid. Nothing good, at least. As for Pettigrew being a sniveling coward... well, I don't know about that. (I'm not saying that looking out for #1 is a noble quality, but...) We thought it was brave of Neville to stand up to his friends in SS when Neville thought he was doing the right thing. In fact, Neville was standing in the way of HRH saving the day, but from his perspective he was making the "right" choice... Pettigrew's choice also meant that he had to stand up to his friends, and he may have even been conned into thinking he was making the "right" (not "easy") choice. Not necessarily a cowardly move. I can't believe I'm becoming a Pettigrew-sympathizer, but, yes, it seems that he was being preyed upon on all fronts, and his allegiance went to the one who most valued his life. He may have even thought this was the "right" decision, and it certainly couldn't have been that "easy" of a decision... But when death is striking out all around you, your supposed allies are willing to risk your own death, and your supposed enemy offers you life... well, it's got to be hard to figure out what the most moral decision is when the ones you trust and the one you fear treat you in the opposite way that you would expect... - Nobody's Rib From urbana at charter.net Sat Mar 8 23:08:00 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 23:08:00 -0000 Subject: FF: Transfer students (was: Harry not a seeker) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53461 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nobodysrib" wrote: >> Of course, we don't know if transferring schools is allowed since we > have not seen it happen before (I giggle when I think of Krum lining > up with all the other first years, waiting to be sorted), and there > may be canon showing Krum was a 7th year in GoF (which makes his > interest in Hermione a bit creepy and pedophiliac-ish, IMHO...). > We haven't seen students transfer between wizarding schools in HP proper (yet), but we see it happen often in HP fan fiction. Usually the transfer student is a Mary-Sue or a Gary Stu, very often from the United States. Personally I haven't read any HP fan fics featuring OC transfer students that I've really liked, but that's probably just my own preference. I've tended to like adult OCs much more (e.g. Napoleon Jones in Paradigm of Uncertainty and its sequels; Raven Mordent in the as-yet-incomplete Darkly Inclined). Anne U (wondering if there's a filk about Mary Sues to the tune of Peggy Sue...) From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 23:14:11 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 15:14:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore an animagi? In-Reply-To: <003101c2e5a2$3e03e320$5591e818@fibertel.com.ar> Message-ID: <20030308231411.14746.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53462 Marugg wrote: Hi, other Harry Potter fans. First of all, I would like to apologize because I'm not a native speaker, so I may make some mistakes. I'm new to this group, which means that it's extremely probable that this topic has been discused before. My question : ?is Dumbledore an animagus?. He was the Transfiguration teacher before becoming Headmaster. McGonagall is the teacher now, and since she can turn into a cat, I thought it might be possible for Dumbledore to turn into an animal too. Mariana ( who hopes you all get to understand what I'm trying to say despite the fact that my English could be much better) Me: That is an interesting question. Personally I would think not. When Hermonie checked the registry there were only something like 5 (I don't have the book in front of me) registered Animagus. Now one of them COULD have been Dumbledore. She didn't say who the other ones were but you would think she would have noticed his name and mentioned it if he was. Now of course there is a possibility that like Peter, Lupin and James, he at some point in his life became an unregistered animagus. After all, Dumbledore is not above bending the rules himself and seems to admire that kind of rebellious streak in others. And he is SO powerful that such a feat would not be difficult for him at all, there is absolutely nothing written so far in the series to suggest he ever developed this particular skill. Until we are surprised by such a revelation we have to assume I think that he cannot. One thing about Dumbledores abilities we should keep in mind are two things concerning invisibility. He told Harry he can make himself invisible. No other wizzard or witch we've come across can do that and it is obviously not a normal magical skill. Plus, in the shack in PoA, he obviously "saw" Harry and Ron hiding under the invisibility clock. Again, nobody else has this ability. So, it would be very dangerous to suggest what Dumbledore's limitations are, outside of picking DODA teachers that can stick around and/or not try to kill Harry. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 23:28:23 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 15:28:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore an animagi? In-Reply-To: <20030308231411.14746.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030308232823.81743.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53463 CORRECTION: I wrote... Plus, in the shack in PoA, he obviously "saw" Harry and Ron hiding under the invisibility clock. Again, nobody else has this ability. So, it would be very dangerous to suggest what Dumbledore's limitations are, outside of picking DODA teachers that can stick around and/or not try to kill Harry. Huggs Becky MY CORRECTION: I just realized that could easily be interpreted as meaning that took place in the Shriking Shack on the outside of town. Just for the record, I was referring to Hagrid's home which is often described as essentially a shack and not the other shack. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amani at charter.net Sat Mar 8 23:29:45 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 18:29:45 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? References: Message-ID: <007001c2e5ca$9a85a700$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53464 Norm: I have always wondered exactly what happens in PoA to allow Harry (and Hermione and Sirius) to escape from the dementors after the Shrieking Shack episode. As I see it, there are two possibilities: 1) Harry tries to conjure up a Patronus, but fails; he then sees somebody on the far bank -- who he thinks is his dad -- and also sees the "stag Patronus" coming to rescue him. When he goes back later via the Time-Turner, he realizes (from his perspective on the far bank) that it wasn't his father there, it was HIM, and he conjures up the powerful "stag Patronus" to save "his other self." The text (which I'll get to in a minute), seems more strongly to suggest option 1). However, it seems to me that in order to be able to go back later to conjure up a Patronus to save himself, somehow Harry needs to be saved -- by himself, by his father, by Dumbledore, by *someone* -- in the first place in order to survive to then come *back* via Time-Turner to do it later. Me: You're not quite comprehending the version of time travel JKR is using. /Harry/ saved himself. By going back in time, Harry did not /change/ the past. He, in fact, /caused/ it. In this version of time travel (which I've seen in plenty other books and movies), you can't actually really change the past. You simply cause it. It's always been caused because you were in the past... It's a bit hard for me to say, I guess. ^_^;; It's like a big pretzel (as said in Kate and Leopold, probably a bad example as it only used time travel as an excuse to set up a romantic comedy). A better example would be The Time Machine. You don't change the past because, if you /did/ change the past, you wouldn't later go /back/ to change the past because the reason for you to change the past would be nonexistant. In The Time Machine, a man tries to go back to save his dead lover from being killed. He is unable to, because if he /did/ save her, then he would have never gone back in time to save her. I really hope this makes sense. ^_^;; Harry was saved by himself. There is only one timeline, in a sense. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 23:32:55 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 15:32:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Poor snivelling little Peter WAS Re: Evil!lupin: a rebuttal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030308233255.1234.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53465 --- Nobody's Rib wrote: > I see this as a possible set of events. Someone tips off Dumbledore > that there is a snitch in the inner circle. Fidelius Charm > suggested. Black and Dumbledore both want to be the Secret Keeper. > Black opts out and suggests Pettigrew. Pettigrew, up to this point, > has only had allegiance to his MWPP alliance and was not the one > who "turned traitor" (do we have canon, btw, that says Pettigrew had > been an informant for a year?), and now has been asked to risk death > to save the Potters' lives. The way I see it, Sirius didn't see it as asking Peter to risk his life. He didn't intend for anyone to know that Peter was the Secret-Keeper, so why would Peter be in danger? *Sirius* was the one who everyone would know as the Secret-Keeper. The whole POINT of the plan was for him to be the obvious target while Peter stayed safely anonymous and the Potters stayed safe. Now, *James and Lily* might have seen it as asking Peter to take an enormous risk and think it was very presumptuous, and that's why they had to be talked into it. But Sirius, IMO, always saw himself as taking the risk out of the situation. As to how Peter saw it...well, that's anyone's guess. ;) But I'll point out that when Peter was sniveling about how he had no choice but to betray the secret, he never once said anything like, "You expected me to die for them, but no one would've died for me! The Dark Lord at least offered to spare my life, while my *friends* told me I was the one chosen to die!" The way he was throwing out every possible argument there, I'd expect that to have shown up if it had been a consideration. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 23:53:14 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 15:53:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cabbage smell,twins and time-turners In-Reply-To: <002301c2e5c5$7bb87780$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: <20030308235314.41682.qmail@web40513.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53466 Morgan D wrote: In PS/CS ch 2, Harry describes Mrs Figg as "a mad old lady who lived two streets away", and he says her "whole house smelled of cabbage". In CoS ch 12, Harry drinks Polyjuice Potion and thinks "it tasted like overcooked cabbage". That was enough to convince many readers that Arabella isn't an old lady at all. Sparrow: This is a fine a theory as any of the others, but really, we have to think of the fact that cabbage is a funny thing, not to mention nasty. Me: But, Harry also said the apothecary smelled like cabbage, so that leads me to believe that potion ingredients in general smell like cabbages. So possibly, if you noticed this conncection in PS/SS you would have known in the first book that Arabella Figg has some connection to potions and the WW. ~Kathryn --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 23:59:33 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 15:59:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore an animagi? In-Reply-To: <20030308231411.14746.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030308235933.58090.qmail@web40514.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53467 Becky Walkden wrote: Marugg wrote: Hi, other Harry Potter fans. First of all, I would like to apologize because I'm not a native speaker, so I may make some mistakes. I'm new to this group, which means that it's extremely probable that this topic has been discused before. My question : ?is Dumbledore an animagus?. He was the Transfiguration teacher before becoming Headmaster. McGonagall is the teacher now, and since she can turn into a cat, I thought it might be possible for Dumbledore to turn into an animal too. Mariana ( who hopes you all get to understand what I'm trying to say despite the fact that my English could be much better) Me: That is an interesting question. Personally I would think not. When Hermonie checked the registry there were only something like 5 (I don't have the book in front of me) registered Animagus. Now one of them COULD have been Dumbledore. She didn't say who the other ones were but you would think she would have noticed his name and mentioned it if he was. Now Me: Here's something interesting though. Hermione says there were only (5) registered in the *last/past* century(1894-1994). Since Dumbledore is 150 years old, maybe he was registered in the *previous* century(1794-1894). Just a thought:) ~Kathryn --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Sun Mar 9 00:27:34 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jon) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 00:27:34 -0000 Subject: Poor snivelling little Peter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53468 Marianne wrote: "Making the switch was to create confusion. Voldemort and his minions were likely to try to find Sirius because he was the logical choice of Secret Keeper. Okay, then Sirius becomes the first line of defense for both Peter and the Potters by acting as a decoy. If they never find him, everyone stays safe, relatively speaking. If he's caught and dies under torture without giving up any information, then he's succeeded in protecting not only the Potters but Peter." I add: Maybe he could do more than just protect them, too. Say Sirius is captured, and thought to be the Secret-Keeper. Would he want them to be able to say, "Well, we caught the wrong guy; I wonder who else it might be?" No. IMO, he'd probably try to resist the torture as long as possible, and if he had to, he could reveal a false location for James and Lily's house: a location which actually holds several squadrons of highly trained Aurors ready and willing to stupify any who enter. Thus, if Sirius is never caught, Dumbledore and crew don't lose anything. If he IS caught, Dumbledore loses a faithful friend and agent, but gains an opportunity to ambush most, if not all, of the DEs who come to kill J and L. Of course, Dumbledore didn't know about it, so this is all pretty much impossible, isn't it? Hobbit-guy (who should know by now not to theorize with incomplete facts. Curse that JKR for making us wait!!) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Mar 9 01:25:58 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 01:25:58 -0000 Subject: how does Winky know Dobby? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53469 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sevenhundredandthirteen" wrote: Preface: How about this one; once a year various wizards and witches donate the use of their house-elves to organize and throw the annual Ministry of Magic Christmas Party. (Keep in mind that Barty Jr wasn't always a prisoner in his own home; that's only been 13 out of the last 33 years) A large collective wizard's event taking place on neutral territory. I'm not saying it's true, but it is a reasonably bulletproof theory. General points on House-Elves- We don't know the extent of their powers. We do know that so far, only a house-elf has been able to apparate (or perform an apparation-like action). That would imply that Elf magical power is very substantial. I have always believed, although there is no proof in the books, that elves have telepathic-like powers which would allow them to interact socially without being in the same place. I also believe, again admittedly unfounded, that they have a strong intuitive sense that would allow them to know when and where other elves were, and would alow them to sense when their master was calling even if they weren't home at the time. There superior (apparently) apparation abilities would also allow for fast short term social interaction, and with a strong intuitive sense, they could know when they were needed at home, and 'pop' back immediately, giving their master the sense that the elf had been there the whole time. What is the point of elf social interaction when elves live to work not to party? It's possible that even their social interaction could be for the purpose of improving their ability to serve their masters; exchanging recipes, cleaning tips, popping in to cover for an elf that was too sick to work, etc.... So while it's out of character various types of social interaction aren't impossible to imagine. -end this part- > ...edited... I thought of every possible way of linking Dobby and > Winky as I possibly could. Some are boring (they do their shopping > at the same place). ...edited... > > > 1. Dobby and Winky do their shopping together. > ...edited... > > Why it can't be true: > Consider these pieces of canon: > Barty Crouch, Jnr, whilst under Veritaserum (Chapter 35 "Veritaserum.") > Says- > "'I was always with the house-elf. She was my keeper and carer.'" > And also- > "'I had not left the house for years.'" > bboy_mn: Truth is a funny thing, even when it's true, it's not always absolute. So I have to ask you, if the elf was always guarding Junior, then who cleaned the house and made dinner? I read the implication that Barty Jr is never left alone, and that whenever Barty Sr is away, the elf is with him at all times. But the elf has a lots of jobs to do in order to look after the house. Therefore, I suspect that when Barty Sr was home to look after Junior, Winky went about her daily chores. I don't see that as a violation of truth relative to Barty Jr's statement that you quoted above. For the truth to be exact, he would have probably gone on for an hour describing the exact details of his home life and any exceptions to the rules that may have occurred. True he does say 'alway with the elf', but truth is relative. There are general truths and then there are specific detailed truths which could seem to conflict yet both still be relatively true. -end this part- > ...edited... > 2.) There is a social network for elves (not an exact quote but > close enough). bboy_mn: Winky served the Crouch house as did her mother and her grandmother. Unless elves are able to reproduce monosexually, they had to have some interaction with Male elves in order to produce baby elves. While, in this case, we are talking about magical creatures, I must still point out the single sex reproduction in the natural world is pretty rare. So we have Mother and Grandmother, is it safe to assume that means that somewhere there is a Father and a Grandfather? -end this part- > > 3. The Ministry Of Magic, Department of Regulation and Control of > Magical Creatures has regular house-elf meets where they ensure > house-elves are fulfilling their duties. > bboy_mn: The only thing I'm going to point out here is that the Ministry of Magic has an Office of House-Elf Relocation. Don't know how that helps but I thought I would throw it in. -end this part- > George says this about house-elves: "House elves come with big old > mansions and castle and places like that, you wouldn't catch one in > our house." (CoS, Chapter 2, "Dobby's Warning") It sounds as though > the house-elf comes with the house. Dobby also says "'The wizard > family Dobby serves, sir ... Dobby is a house-elf - bound to serve > one house and one family forever ...'" He also makes it clear that > he is bound to the property as well as the family. > bboy_mn: I'm reminded of a very long discussion we had over the term 'Manor'. A 'house' is not as simple as a house; for example, House of Malfoy is not the same as Malfoy's house, although Malfoy's house could be included in the House of Malfoy. When the House of Malfoy moves into a new mansion, the new mansion becomes the House of Malfoy, and the old house is just a house. I think Dobby serves one House, and not one house. -end this part- > > 7. Business meetings of some description between Crouch and Malfoy. > The Concept: > Barty is hosting business meetings at his home which Lucius is > attending, and he's bringing his slave with him, letting Dobby and > Winky meet on Winky's home turf. > > ...edited... > > > 15. The Crouches and the Malfoys are related. (my personal favourite). bboy_mn: Well, that's possible. But I think more likely is that since Malfoys and Crouches are both old wizarding families, the may have had a long history of association prior to this particulat Malfoy and this particular Crouch. On a related point, we don't know how long house-elves live, if they live 500 years then Dobby and Winky would have had plenty of time and opportunity to get to know each other. > > 16. It's a flint. JKR didn't realise that when she wrote Winky and > Dobby as knowing each other that that also incriminated the Crouches > and Malfoys as knowing each other as well. > > *Note: On the nature of Dobby and Winky's relationship. > > --They are obviously good friends. bboy_mn: well, at least good acquaintances. > --We know Dobby and Winky have kept in contact after Dobby was sacked. > Because Winky knows he's sacked, BBOY_MN: Show knows he's been sacked, but we don't know the source of that knowledge. She could have heard it from Crouch Sr. > ...edited... > > > Whew! Well, that was very long wasn't it! > > ~<(Laurasia)>~ Excellent thought provoking analysis. I'm not so much trying to dispute your conclusions as offerring alternative perspective. I think before this series ends we will learn a lot more about Dobby and house-elves in general. I think Dobby and Neville are the two background characters that have the greatest potential to step very much into the foreground. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From amani at charter.net Sun Mar 9 01:32:48 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 20:32:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Underage Magic at the Weasley's (and in general) References: Message-ID: <000e01c2e5db$cb15d780$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53470 Aesob: 1. The ban is something that is only ever applied to Harry once (beginning of CoS), and it was used as a plot element to introduce us to how troublesome Dobby could be, as it's something Harry's not even guilty for. As Juliet points out above, in PoA, Harry is pardoned for blowing up Aunt Marge (when he actually is guilty) by none other than Fudge, the Minister of Magic! Me: Y'know, I've heard the Aunt Marge incident brought up in discussions of the ban of underage magic multiple times and I /still/ can't understand why. Harry didn't purposely break the law. It was an involuntary action, yet people have repeatedly referred to him as being guilty. >_> --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amani at charter.net Sun Mar 9 01:48:04 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 20:48:04 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry & Hermione Siblings? References: <067401c2e4ad$8fcdf5b0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <002f01c2e5dd$ed51f660$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53471 Penny: But, let's say you don't trust Dumbledore. How does Hermione's birthdate (Sept 19th ......either 1979 or 1980) play into this scenario? Keep in mind that Harry was born 31 July 1980. You'd have to assume that Hermione was born in Sept 1979, and that Lily was pregnant again scarcely 6 weeks later. Not impossible........but ......er.........not all that likely really. Me: Actually, don't females have a few months after a birth when they can't become pregnant? Unless Diana Gabaldon has led me astray in her novels! ;) Correct me if I'm wrong, though. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amani at charter.net Sun Mar 9 01:52:47 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 20:52:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry & Hermione Siblings? References: <067401c2e4ad$8fcdf5b0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> <3E68B133.000001.29263@monica> Message-ID: <004a01c2e5de$95b0fd60$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53472 Kathryn: Before I go into why I think it is possible I want to say that we don't know much about how magical children are 'found' for Hogwarts. Me: Actually, JKR has told us: "In Hogwarts there's a magical quill which detects the birth of a magical child, and writes his or her name down in a large parchment book. Every year Professor McGonagall checks the book, and sends owls to the people who are turning 11. " http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript1.htm --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Mar 9 01:57:06 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 01:57:06 -0000 Subject: FOUND IT: Charlie's No. 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53473 > > > > > Elisabeth, a rude mechanical, wrote: > > > > << (By the way, is Bill the eldest Weasley??) >> > > > > Yes. I think the only evidence of this is that Ron lists Bill > > first when listing his brothers, ... > > > > bboy_mn: > I've just finished PoA and started Gof (again) and I am absolutely > certain that there is a passage in one of the books that reads the > equivalent of '...Charlie (Ron's second oldest brother)...'. I made > a mental note of it when I saw it because I know this as been > discussed before. ...snip... > -end this part- > FOUND IT: PoA; Am. PB., Chapter 'Quidditch Final', Pg 301 - "Gryffindor hadn't won the Quiiditch Cup since the legendary Charlie Weasley (Ron's second oldest brother) have been Seeker." This would confirm that indeed Bill is the oldest brother. bboy_mn From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Sun Mar 9 01:12:06 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 01:12:06 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron is Dumbledore? References: <008601c2e59f$50874bc0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: <3E6A94E6.000003.28317@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 53474 Melody: Hmmm, Ron as Dumbledore. Given Ron's reputation to date in the series, seems Dumbledore does not have to be so squeaky clean now. In fact, that could cover a few of MD's dark spots you know. *Dumbledore* may not of manipulated all, but a Ron!Dumbledore. Well, he is *there* to manipulate it all. Though, what is he manipulating? Ron, when he went back in time, already knew what all had happened. He cannot change anything. So, what would he be doing as Dumbledore? Hmm, I think I am lost here somewhere. Oh, well. No big surprise on my part I guess. Taryn: Ah, but he wouldn't be /changing/ the past. He'd be /causing/ the past, just like in PoA. Harry and Hermione didn't /change/ anything, because it had already happened They merely /caused/ it. Now Me: I was discussing this idea with a friend offline and she made an interesting point. We're all assuming that Ron!Dumbledore didn't change history at all. Either because he couldn't or because he chose not too. But what if he did - what if all the events we're seeing are Ron!Dumbledore's new and improved past? Example - Voldemort killed Harry Potter and the proceeded to take over the WW. Ron grows up in a world where Voldemort and the DEs are in charge and people like the Weasleys have to pretend to go along with it in order to saty alive You can be executed for expressing any kind of anti-Voldemort feeling, muggleborns are kept in Azkaban etc etc Ron grows up knowing that this is wrong but unable to do anything about it. Some catastrophic event causes him to decide to try an incredibly dangerous time travel spell (since I'm assuming he would find it a lot more difficult to get his hands on a time turner), maybe his family have just been wiped out, but for whatever reason Ron feels he has nothin to lose and is willing to risk travelling back in time. (Maybe Snape helps him, maybe that's why he trusts him as Albus, after all if Snape was willing to try and help in the more dangerous climate of a post-Voldemort victory then why not in the Potterverse we know). This is where the theory pretty much meshes with what we've already discussed - he ends up 130 years in the past, either creating Albus Dumbledore or replacing him. He studies to become a great wizard (we have no real indication exactly how talented Ron is since it's difficult to tell because he tends not to apply himself to his studies) in the hopes of changing things this time around. He doesn't *know* Riddle is going to become Voldemort explaining why he doesn't stop him (although I don't think he would anyway because executing someone because of what they will become seems a little un-Gryffindorish.). He does however stop Hagrid being totally thrown out of the ww because he trusts him. He does his best to keep the Potter's safe this time round (even volunteering to be their Secret Keeper) and fails but things happen slightly differently and Lily has the opportunity to sacrifice her life thus saving Harry and damaging Voldemort. At this point his knowledge of the future becomes totally useless to him (because things have changed so much) but he carries on trying to do what he thinks is best for the ww. K From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Sun Mar 9 02:00:29 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 02:00:29 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry & Hermione Siblings? References: <004a01c2e5de$95b0fd60$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: <3E6AA03D.000001.28317@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 53475 Kathryn: Before I go into why I think it is possible I want to say that we don't know much about how magical children are 'found' for Hogwarts. Taryn: Actually, JKR has told us: "In Hogwarts there's a magical quill which detects the birth of a magical child, and writes his or her name down in a large parchment book. Every year Professor McGonagall checks the book, and sends owls to the people who are turning 11. " http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript1.htm Me: My comments were badly phrased. I meant we didn't know the details of how the system worked. In other words whether Minerva and the rest of the staff knew the names of the other elevens or if they only checked for that year. Also since my point was that hermione could have been adopted they would have known presumably that she was a witch since she was the child of magical parents but after she was adopted by muggles her name may have been changed - would the book reflect that? Because if so they might not associat Hermione Granger with Hermione - whatever she was before. Which come to think of it is a flaw in m,y original argument that she could be a cousin - while I admitted she could have been adopted I assumed her name had to be Granger before then whereas it could easily have been Potter, with Granger being the adoptive parents' surname. K From lilpurplealdy at netscape.net Sun Mar 9 02:41:49 2003 From: lilpurplealdy at netscape.net (Juliet) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 02:41:49 -0000 Subject: Evil!lupin: a rebuttal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53476 Pippin: >>Not vindictive? It's far easier to make a case for vindictive!Lupin than, say, vindictive!McGongall. There's the Snape-boggart, the vampire essay,>> I'm sorry, but you lose me. What does the vampire essay have to do with being vindictive to Snape? (Unless, of course, you are hinting that Snape *is* a vampire, which is another theory entirely than this Evil!Lupin one you are proposing...). >>the chilling exchange "Forgive me, Remus," said Black. "Not at all, Padfoot, old friend," said Lupin...>> Since I find this to be an opion statement, I guess I can't argue it with you. But I can say that all people present that night in the Shrieking Shack didn't seem to find it chillling... >>and most telling, Lupin's casual re-introduction of cold-blooded murder ("No one's going to kill you until we've sorted a few things out") as the way to deal with Pettigrew. This *after* Sirius himself had already proposed bringing Peter up to the castle instead, where a healthy dose of Veritaserum could have established the truth to the satisfaction of everybody. >> I don't doubt that you've read this passage many times, as you seem to like Evil!Lupin so much :), but...I don't see Sirius suggesting they bring Peter up to the school. As I'm looking at The Servant of Lord Voldemort chapter right now, the events are as follows: A) Sirius and Remus force Peter to go to human form. B) Lupin greets him. C) Peter doesn't even say ten words before Black raises his wand, but Lupin stops him. D) Lupin brings up the night Lily and James died. E) Peter tries to convince Lupin Sirius is lying and is trying to kill him. Exact words: "He killed Lily and James and now he's going to kill me too....You've got to help me, Remus..." F) Lupin replies "No one's going to try and kill you until we've sorted a few things out". I don't find it a *re-introduction* of cold-blooded murder. He was responding to Peter saying Black is going to kill him by using some of the same words Peter used. "They're going to kill me!" "No, they're not going to kill you." Nothing abnormal about that. Alright, I've just read through the bit from where Peter goes human to where Lupin binds him with cords, and I can't find Sirius suggesting anything about Veritaserum. I didn't think Veritaserum was even introduced to us until the fourth book, when Snape threatens Harry with it. >>Lupin could have had evil reasons for teaching Harry to resist the Dementors, just as Fake!Moody taught Harry to resist the Imperius curse.>> But the difference between what Moody did and what Lupin did is that Lupin never suggested to Harry to teach him to resist the Dementors. He was reluctant about doing it the whole time, he was afraid it was too hard for Harry to do. Moody tried the curse on the whole class, it was *Moody's* idea, and made Harry go through it four times until "he could throw off the course entirely." The text isn't exact, but it does suggest that he did this to *all* class members. "Ron, who was skipping on every alternate step. He had had much more difficulty with the curse then Harry". So Moody made *sure* Harry could throw it off. The only thing Lupin ever got Harry to do was to produce a very weak Patronus, that sort of hovered. And, when it came to crunch time, that Patronus got waved easily away by the Dementors. >>And of course, Lupin could have learned about Pettigrew the same way Sirius did.>> Sorry for being dense, but what exactly to you mean by this? That Lupin could have found out Peter had faked his death the same way Sirius had? Sirius found that out because he was *there*, standing right infront of Peter. Lupin could not have been there, because he'd have been killed by the curse if he'd have been close enough to actually see what was going on. To say that he found out because he recognized Peter in the Weasley picture doesn't make any sense, but Lupin thought that Peter was dead for a fact. >>It's also very strange that Lupin pays no heed to Ron's injuries or Snape's until they become a logistical problem, even though Ron is in obvious pain the whole time and an unconscious person should be checked at once to make sure they are breathing.>> Lupin *did* try to "pay heed" to Ron's injuries, but his efforts were swatted away with a "Get away from me, *werewolf*!" And so, he takes on the task of making sure HRH -understand- what's going on, and thus don't think he's in cahoots with Black or that Black is trying to kill Harry. Once that's accomplised and no one is trying to kill anyone anymore, then both the injured people are looked to. >>Speaking of choices, it's pretty likely that Pettigrew will be redeemed. Shouldn't there be at least one dyed-in-the-wolf, er, wool, member of MWPP who goes bad and chooses to remain so? Though I'm sure he'll be offered the chance to repent.>> Peter was never really *bad* from the get go, he was just weak. Weak- willed, no self confidence...not really Bad, IMO. But no, I don't think a member of MWPP needs to go bad(one was already widely thought to have, and one semi-did). To turn it around, does a member of the Trio(and what could later turn into a quartet) need to go bad as well, just because? As for Peter redeeming himself...I really can't think of much of anything he could *do* to redeem himself. If he saves Harry's life, that's just him paying off his debt. If he turns on Voldemort(which is so unlikely to happen unless he thinks Voldie isn't gonna win), then that is just his weakness and cowardice showing it's colors. Nothing redeeming going on there. As a side note... in my re-readings of the chapter The Servant of Lord Voldemort whilst writing this post, this line sticks out at me: >>"Ready, Sirius?" said Lupin. Black had already retrieved Snapes wand from the bed. He approached Lupin and the struggling rat, and his wet eyes suddenly seemed to be burning in his face.**Note: This is Sirius and Lupin getting ready to make Peter The Rat reveal himself**>> Uh...hmm..."wet eyes"? Was Sirius close to tears? That's a weird statement right there, that last bit. "Burning in his face" suggests to me intense hatred/anger, and then "wet eyes" suggests tears. Was Sirius resolutely set to Peter getting what he deserved, but at the same time upset at the prospect of killing what was once an old school friend...? ~Aldrea, still very much against Evil!Lupin From amani at charter.net Sun Mar 9 03:17:50 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 22:17:50 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Heir References: Message-ID: <01b201c2e5ea$77540c20$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53477 bboy_mn: I'm behind you on this one. The two possibilities are that Harry is the biological heir to Gryffindor legacy, or that Harry is the most Gryffindorious (I love it when I get to make up words) of all Gryffindors and is therefore 'the chosen one'; the one who is worth to carry the torch. I speculate as an illustration, that Fawkes is the keeper of the legacy. Whom ever Fawkes choses as his new master becomes the next 'King of Gryffindors'. King Arthur became King not by some provable line of blood but because the next true heir, the one person worth of becoming king would be the man who could pull the sword from the stone. King by birthright of worthiness, not by birthright of blood. Me: ...and he just /happens/ to be the son of Uther. It can really depend on which version of the legend you're following. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Sun Mar 9 03:28:43 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 21:28:43 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry & Hermione Siblings? References: <067401c2e4ad$8fcdf5b0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> <002f01c2e5dd$ed51f660$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: <019201c2e5eb$fd57f330$d79ccdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 53478 Penny: > But, let's say you don't trust Dumbledore. How does Hermione's birthdate (Sept > 19th ......either 1979 or 1980) play into this scenario? Keep in mind that > Harry was born 31 July 1980. You'd have to assume that Hermione was born in > Sept 1979, and that Lily was pregnant again scarcely 6 weeks later. Not > impossible........but ......er.........not all that likely really. Taryn responded: > Actually, don't females have a few months after a birth when they can't become > pregnant? Unless Diana Gabaldon has led me astray in her novels! ;) Correct me > if I'm wrong, though. Hmm, well before I give my thoughts on the matter we'll have our daily biology lesson. :) *If* a woman is not nursing her baby, fertility generally returns between two and six weeks after giving birth. So technically speaking, in some instances it is humanly possible to become pregnant two weeks after giving birth. So six weeks would not be that unusual. Not necessarily that wise, but if one is in a hurry, it is possible. (If a woman *is* nursing fertility is usually, but not always, delayed six months.) Now, back on topic here, technically speaking if indeed Hermione was born September 19, 1979, Harry could have been born to the same mother July 31, 1980. But I don't quite see the connection. Other than the fact that we don't know much about Hermione's parents, the Grangers (other than that they are Muggles and dentists), and very little about the rest of her family, there isn't much to go on. It does make one wonder, though, how a family of Muggles so readily acknowledges that their child is a witch and goes off to school someplace they can't even visit. Not to mention that (first year aside) she doesn't even go home at Christmas. If she is indeed an only child, that's rather odd. For parents to so willingly let go of their child. Even if she's not an only child, and they have a house full of children, it's still strange. Of course, if they knew the child they were raising would one day be "taken" and were prepared, that would be different. I have my doubts, though, for one reason it's (to quote JKR on another possibility) "rather Star Wars" isn't it? Luke/Leia; Harry/Hermione? It just doesn't add up. Though I would like to know more about Hermione's family. I wonder why Harry isn't more curious? I guess he's got his fill of Muggles as it is. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 9 03:28:43 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 19:28:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ron is Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: <3E6A94E6.000003.28317@monica> Message-ID: <20030309032843.73822.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53479 --- Kathryn Cawte wrote: > At this point his knowledge of the future becomes totally useless to him > (because things have changed so much) but he carries on trying to do > what he thinks is best for the ww. ...But the entire point of the Ron!Dumbledore theory was to explain how Dumbledore seemed to know all of these things that he *shouldn't* know, unless he lived them as Ron. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From editor at texas.net Sun Mar 9 03:32:29 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 21:32:29 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] FOUND IT: Charlie's No. 2 References: Message-ID: <002501c2e5ec$844bd500$3705a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53480 Steve crowed, re: his confirmation that Bill is the oldest Weasley child: > FOUND IT: > PoA; Am. PB., Chapter 'Quidditch Final', Pg 301 - "Gryffindor hadn't > won the Quiiditch Cup since the legendary Charlie Weasley (Ron's > second oldest brother) have been Seeker." > > This would confirm that indeed Bill is the oldest brother. It would confirm only that he is indeed the oldest brother *now,* at the moment. I happen to be a "missing Weasley child" adherent (and, relatedly, a "seventh-son Ron" follower), and so I must devil's advocate and point this out. For one, Ron may not know there was an older sibling who was killed. I mentioned this a while back; families handle tragedy differently. While my own brother, who died when I was very young, was not a taboo subject, I have a friend whose father was killed when she was a baby, and her family never discussed it *at all.* It was not mentioned. It was suppressed. The only reason her younger sisters even know about it, is that they asked why their last name was different from my friend's and her brother's. So, Ron may well believe that Bill is the oldest, and that Charlie is the second-oldest. For another, even if Ron knows he lost a sibling, Charlie *is* the second-oldest now. From my own experience: the ranking in my family went Rankin, Tommy, Kelley, then me. Kelley died when I was four. To say that Tommy is my closest brother in age, or to say that I have two brothers, is correct. That is the fact at the moment. The "current" aspect of the quote in the book, therefore, does not make it clear beyond all doubt that there may have been another Weasley child older than Bill. ~Amanda From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sun Mar 9 04:09:35 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 23:09:35 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] FOUND IT: Charlie's No. 2 Message-ID: <18b.173142cf.2b9c187f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53481 In a message dated 3/8/2003 9:35:47 PM Central Standard Time, editor at texas.net writes: > PoA; Am. PB., Chapter 'Quidditch Final', Pg 301 - "Gryffindor hadn't > >won the Quiiditch Cup since the legendary Charlie Weasley (Ron's > >second oldest brother) have been Seeker." > > > >This would confirm that indeed Bill is the oldest brother. > > It would confirm only that he is indeed the oldest brother *now,* at the > moment. I happen to be a "missing Weasley child" adherent (and, relatedly, > a > "seventh-son Ron" follower), and so I must devil's advocate and point this > out. > Intriguing. This is a theory I can get behind. I still think that Bill and Charlie are the eldest 2 brothers. If there is a "missing brother" I think that he'd probably come between Charlie and Percy. It feels like there is a larger age gap between Charlie Percy than there is between the rest of them. (although I'm not sure that there's any canon on that subject) Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sun Mar 9 04:27:00 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 04:27:00 -0000 Subject: Underage Magic at the Weasley's (and in general) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53482 I wrote: > Let me try to defend JKR a bit (not that she needs it). > > I believe that schoolchildren on vacation are indeed not allowed to > do magic. But the tracking system in the MoM is such that it cannot > determine who exactly preforms the spell. In other words, they only > track the location. This is why F&G preform magic in the Burrow > during the summer - there are adults living there, and the MoM simply > doesn't know that it wasn't an adult who had preformed the spell. aesob replied: >>I'm not attacking anyone (particularly JKR) I know. Sorry. I wasn't implying that. aesob continued: but the tracking system that maria_kirilenko proposes is just as hypothetic and problematic as my idea that it's just a poorly conceived plot element that JKR's bending. I reply: Hypothetic, yes. Problematic - I don't know, but it's not in contradiction with canon. See, this theory was created in order to provide an explanation for the problem you brought up - and it does just that. Location-tracked!Spells is a valid theory that is derived from canon, and while there's a choice between believing in it and thinking that it's just a "poorly conceived plot element" invented just to harass Harry - well, I'll pick the theory any day. JKR's writing isn't sloppy, IMO. >>>If underage wizards were to practice magic at home with other adults nearby (in basements or their own rooms behind closed doors), they could still be causing serious harm to themselves, siblings, pets, etc. The idea that the MoM could track the rough location of spells being cast still has frightening big brotherly consequences (perhaps more so than just having a way of tracking underage wizards). >>> You are right, the tracking is scary. But, evidently, they are able to do it, as we see from the letter that Harry got in the beginning of PoA. So how is this damaging to the theory? >>>One would think if there were a way to track magic like this, they could find out where any known DE or even Voldemort is by tracking their trail of magic...>>> Actually, they don't really need to. DE's leave the Dark Mark when they go about *marauding*. Another explanation is that the MoM only monitors the houses where students live, which fits canon better. >>>It's all hypothetical, and perhaps JKR has a completely valid explanation for how it works. If so, I'd love to know. (That and a million other things!)>>> Me too. :) Also, Taryn asked: Y'know, I've heard the Aunt Marge incident brought up in discussions of the ban of underage magic multiple times and I /still/ can't understand why. Harry didn't purposely break the law. It was an involuntary action, yet people have repeatedly referred to him as being guilty. >_> Me: Well, I assume that the MoM's "tracking system" (or intelligence, as it's called in the letter - I don't quite know what to make of that word) can't tell whether a spell was involuntary or not. Harry did magic when he wasn't supposed to - and the law is clear on that point. Maria From pennylin at swbell.net Sun Mar 9 04:54:43 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 22:54:43 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry & Hermione Siblings? References: <067401c2e4ad$8fcdf5b0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> <002f01c2e5dd$ed51f660$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> <019201c2e5eb$fd57f330$d79ccdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: <00ec01c2e5f8$0077da60$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 53483 Hi -- I said: <<< 19th ......either 1979 or 1980) play into this scenario? Keep in mind that > Harry was born 31 July 1980. You'd have to assume that Hermione was born in > Sept 1979, and that Lily was pregnant again scarcely 6 weeks later. Not impossible........but ......er.........not all that likely really.>>> Taryn responded: > Actually, don't females have a few months after a birth when they can't become > pregnant? Unless Diana Gabaldon has led me astray in her novels! ;) Correct me > if I'm wrong, though. Well, don't forget that Gabaldon's character is *nursing*. In many (though not *all* -- NOT reliable birth control) of nursing mothers, fertility doesn't kick in during the duration of the nursing (hence why nursing children for 2-3 yrs or even longer is seen in some cultures). Richelle is right -- Lily could have become pregnant again within 6 weeks, though it's not at all likely in any case and certainly not if she was nursing. The other argument against Harry and Hermione being siblings in my mind is the complete lack of genetic make-up between the two of them, more particularly the fact that Hermione bears no resemblance to what we know about James and Lily. Lots of people have unruly hair. Rowling has gone out of her way to show family resemblances though. Harry looks exactly like James, except for his eyes, which clearly come from his mother. His appearance is easily explained with reference to his biological parents. In the Weasley family, we learn in GoF that Bill, Percy and Ron are built like Arthur, while Charlie and the Twins are more like Molly. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Sun Mar 9 05:28:34 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 05:28:34 -0000 Subject: V sparing L/TMR becoming V/Krum= 9th year/Dumbimagus/Winky+Dobby/Weasley gap Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53484 Steve bboy_mn wrote: << Now ask yourself, could this really be a valid offer? Would Voldemort or any rational (or irrational for that matter) person actually believe a mother would step aside and let her infant son be killed. >> Which fits very neatly into a Snape-loved-Lily omni-theory -- the whole Snape-loved-Lily omni-theory fits WAY TOO NEATLY (considering that I don't believe it's true and that I don't want JKR to write or say that it is). 1) Why Sevvie became a follower of Voldemort -- because he was in a snit over Lily have chosen yucko-James over him. 2) Why Voldemort told Lily to stand aside -- because Sevvie had begged V to give him Lily as a present, making the request as a way to try to save her life without letting on to V that he cared so much about a "Mudblood" -- and V had agreed to this request saying okay, if Lily didn't interfere with killing Harry, then he would leave Lily alive for Sevvie. To respond to your actual point, Voldie shows signs of being SUCH an utterly raving loony (and seeker of Immortality) that he might perfectly believe that any reasonable person would save their own life even at the cost of their child's life. 3) Why Sevvie turned spy against Voldemort while Voldemort was still strong and getting stronger -- he knew perfectly well that Lily would NEVER stand aside and let her baby die, so his next attempt to save Lily's life was to tip off Dumbledore about the danger that all three Potters were in. Ffred manawyddan wrote: << It's interesting to speculate about whether and where there are repositories of "dark" knowledge where an aspiring power seeker like Tom Riddle would find what he was looking for.>> Personally, I feel certain that one such repository is the library of Malfoy Manor, surely containing more than a thousand years of Dark books. << When Voldemort was reduced, he ended up in Albania. Why there, I wonder? >> I personally believe that V's immortality magic included a spell that drags him back to the place (that particular spot in that particular forest) where he became immortal, every time he loses his body. I figure he left it with Quirrel only by possessing Quirrel for the trip back to England, and then possessed some one (or some thing) else until he possessed Quirrel again. When next he left, he was in the horrible ugly baby body. << Haven't heard that theory. Would that mean that _Petunia_ is also Voldemort's daughter? >> No. Some people who hold this theory suppose that Riddle raped Mrs. Evans simply to demonstrate his scorn of Muggles, which seems to me very unlikely that he would feel affectionate toward that offspring. Others suggest that Lily was the child of Riddle and a witch and was adopted by the Evanses. I am sure that Lily had two Muggle parents and four Muggle grandparents, and Hermione also, because the point about judging people by their own abilities not by their pedigrees is so prominent in the saga. Nobody's RIb wrote: << there may be canon showing Krum was a 7th year in GoF (which makes his interest in Hermione a bit creepy and pedophiliac-ish, IMHO...). >> As Lea Moggach already quoted in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/53385 there is canon that << "In GoF (page 77 - Bloomsbury edition) - Ron is talking about Krum being on the Bulgarian National team. "He's really young, too. Only just eighteen or something." >> If Krum was 18 during the QWC, therefore during the summer before the GoF school year started, then he was too old to be a Hogwarts's seventh-year during the GoF school year, unless he had been held back like Marcus Flint (before recent printings of PS/SS were changed to describe him as a FIFTH year, according to rumor). It is possible that Durmstrang schooling lasts a year longer or starts a year later than Hogwarts schooling, but my theory is that Durmstrang schooling starts at the same age and lasts the same length of time, but Krum made an arrangement to do his seventh-year as two years of half-time school, because playing on the National Team would take too much time for him to be able to also go to school full-time. Anyway, I am certain that Viktor is too old to come back to Hogwarts as a regular student. He could come back to Hogwarts not as a regular student ... Dumbledore DID proclaim at the Leaving Feast that everyone there was welcome to return ... he could return simply as a guest and hanger-on, or as doing some advanced independent study in Hogwarts Library and maybe with one of the professors, or as the Quidditch teacher... It doesn't seem at all pedophiliac-ish to me for an 18 year old boy to fall in love with a 15 year old girl who is as admirable as Hermione. That September 19 birthday of hers -- in the ever-present debate, I have been persuaded by the argument that Hogwarts takes students who have turned 11 by September 1 that she turned 12 on her birthday in PS/SS, 13 in CoS, 14 in PoA when she bought Crookshanks as an early birthday present, and 15 in GoF. The traditional counter-argument is that DUmbledore referred to H and H as "two thirteen year old wizards" at the end of PoA. So Hermione is 14 not 13, so what? She's also a witch not a wizard. Mariana marugg wrote: << My question : ?is Dumbledore an animagus?. >> Lots of people feel certain that Dumbledore is an Animagus (for the same reason you cited) and have advanced to wondering what his animal form is. One suggestion is that he's a Bumblebee because that is what his name, Dumbledore, means, and turning into a bee would be a way in which he could be invisible without an Invisibility Cloak. Others assert that his animal form is a phoenix. Me, I don't think Animagi can become Magical animals like phoenices, and I don't think a bumblebee is a big enough animal for such a great wizard. Ing(achristsuperstar) wrote: << how Winky could possibly know Dobby? >> I feel that surely House Elves must get occasional time off (presumably in the middle of the night or when their humans are off on holiday) for House Elf get-togethers that give them the opportunity to meet House Elves of the other sex, or else how could Winky's mother had borne Winky, and then Barty wouldn't have a House Elf. Laurasia wrote: << If there is a house-elf interaction service, Dobby wouldn't be permitted to use it because the Malfoys are cruel, >> Surely their interest in having a new generation of House Elves would temper their cruelty? << So, it sounds as though it's uncommon for families to have more than one elf- only large institutions do. >> JKR gives the impression that the Malfoys only had one House Elf, but I feel sure that Malfoy Manor is a big place and would have work enough for two or even three House Elves. NHN said that Hogwarts has the most House Elves of any place in England, almost 100, which suggests that there exist some other places which have a large number of House Elves. Not as large, but at least ten or twenty, or why wouldn't Nick have said The Only Place in England with more than a single-digit number of House Elves? I have somewhere gotten the impression that the Crouch house, altho' luxurious, is a town house rather than a country manor and only has one House Elf (except when mother and daughter are working together). << (Well, there has to be some way of house-elves reproducing, and the "House-Elf Dating Service" is hardly to be likely, when house-elf aren't meant to have fun :D ) >> Oh, I see you already considered that. Melissa wrote: << It feels like there is a alrger age gap between Charlie Percy than there is between the rest of them. (although I'm not sure that there's any canon on that subject) >> Canon, oh yes. PoA: "Oliver Wood was a burly seventeen-year-old, now in his seventh and final year at Hogwarts. There was a quiet sort of desperation in his voice as he addressed his six fellow team members in the chilly locker rooms on the edge of the darkening Quidditch field. "This is our last chance -- my last chance -- to win the Quidditch Cup," he told them, striding up and down in front of them. "I'll be leaving at the end of this year. I'll never get another shot at it. Gryffindor hasn't won for seven years now...." (later) "The whole of Gryffindor House was obsessed with the coming match. Gryffindor hadn't won the Quidditch Cup since the legendary Charlie Weasley (Ron's second oldest brother) had been seeker." SO: 1993-4 school year - Gryffindor wins Q Cup (PoA) (Percy is 7th year) 1992-3 school year - 7th year Gryff doesn't win Q Cup (CoS) 1991-2 school year - 6th year Gryff doesn't win Q Cup (PS/SS) 1990-1 school year - 5th 1989-90 school year -4th 1988-9 school year - 3rd 1987-8 school year - 2nd (Percy is 1st year) 1986-7 school year - 1st 1985-6 school year - Last time Gryff WON Q Cup - Charlie was Seeker If the last time Charlie played Seeker for Gryffindor was his seventh year (which I believe), then there is an 8 year gap between him and Percy. I have a problem here with PS/SS: "It was decked out in the Slytherin colors of green and silver to celebrate Slytherin's winning the house cup for the seventh year in a row." 1991-2 - Gryff wins House Cup (PS/SS) 1990-1 - 6th year Gryff doesn't win House Cup 1989-90- 5th 1988-9 - 4th 1987-8 - 3rd 1986-7 - 2nd 1985-6 - 1st 1984-5 - presumably Gryff won House Cup. Why didn't Gryff win the House Cup in 1985-6, when they had the advantage of having won the Quidditch Cup? From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Sun Mar 9 05:30:48 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 05:30:48 -0000 Subject: How does Winky knowDobby/What V'mort knows/Evil!McGonagall and Alive!Barty Jr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53485 Bboy_mn: >So I have to ask you, if the elf was always guarding Junior, then who >cleaned the house and made dinner? Well, keep in mind that Barty Jr was also under his father's Imperious Curse all this time. I suspect that in this case Sr was just making Jr be exceptionally obedient. He could easily just sit there under his invisibility cloak whilst Winky went about doing her work. A docile Barty Jr under the Imperious curse doesn't really pose much of a problem to cleaning a toilet does it? Seeing as Winky could just bring him to whatever household location she was currently cleaning. (This brings up another related point about the so far very briefly mentioned powers of house-elves. If Barty Jr was really under his invisibility cloak day and night, should we assume that Winky can see through it? Or, is it more probable to be something like what bboy_mn suggested- that house-elves have an intuitive power that allows her to know where Barty Jr is even without seeing him. It also brings up another point- how did Barty Sr see his son to make sure he wasn't playing-up?) bboy_mn wrote: >Unless elves are able to reproduce monosexually, they had to have some >interaction with Male elves in order to produce baby elves. While, in this case, we are talking about magical creatures, I must still point >out the single sex reproduction in the natural world is pretty rare. > >So we have Mother and Grandmother, is it safe to assume that means >that somewhere there is a Father and a Grandfather? Yeah, in the House-elf Breeding And Reproduction Faciltiy (B.A.R.F.) of course!!! :) The B.A.R.F. is responsible for pairing elves and producing little baby elves. :D bboy_mn: >The only thing I'm going to point out here is that the Ministry of >Magic has an Office of House-Elf Relocation. Don't know how that helps >but I thought I would throw it in. Yes, I did note that. But, I don't really see how it helps either. bboy_mn: >I'm reminded of a very long discussion we had over the term 'Manor'. A >'house' is not as simple as a house; for example, House of Malfoy is >not the same as Malfoy's house, although Malfoy's house could be >included in the House of Malfoy. "bound to serve one house and one family forever ...' Stress the AND. Dobby states them as separate entities. I agree that House and house are distinct from one another, and what's more- Dobby's general grammar and sentence structure aren't always to be relied upon. But there is definitely an 'and.' I suppose it all comes down to interpretation. bboy_mn: > But I think more likely is that since Malfoys >and Crouches are both old wizarding families, the may have had a long >history of association prior to this particulat Malfoy and this >particular Crouch. On a related point, we don't know how long >house-elves live, if they live 500 years then Dobby and Winky would >have had plenty of time and opportunity to get to know each other. Very true. Although I think it's very in character for Crouch to sever any relations with the Malfoys once he sets his mind to being Minister for Magic and realises that the Malfoys may tarnish his reputation. I originally wrote: > --We know Dobby and Winky have kept in contact after Dobby was sacked. > Because Winky knows he's sacked, bboy_mn wrote: >She knows he's been sacked, but we don't know the source of >that knowledge. She could have heard it from Crouch Sr. Also true. But how would Crouch Sr find out? Surely the activities of one house-elf wouldn't be all that important to him? bboy_mn wrote: > I'm not so much trying to > dispute your conclusions as offering alternative perspective. Yes, thank-you for another perspective. I didn't really mean to write it to persuade anyone to favour one particular theory. I hadn't really come to any solid conclusions in my own mind to begin with. That's why I didn't initially post it when I first wrote it- because I truly had no idea. And on a different point that I stumbled across whilst pondering the lives of House-elves. Whilst Voldemort and Wormtail were living at the Crouch residence and making Barty Sr go about his day as per usual, wouldn't they have unlimited access to all of the trials and restricted information regarding Law enforcement from after Voldemort was thwarted? And any private diaries Crouch Sr had kept? With Barty Sr under the Imperious, surely Voldemort could just ask him to bring home a few old reports etc. Hey, the guy was living in noxious gas form for many years, and then living abroad with Wormtail for a whole year- he's going to want to catch up on what's doing in the world, and he has particular interest in who's alive, who's dead, *who's a spy.* What I'm trying to say is that with Voldemort living at the Crouch residence with Crouch under the Imperious, he pretty much can find out everything he wants from the Ministry of Magic. And another, somewhat unrelated, point. For anyone who believes that McGonangall is actually evil. If she was evil, couldn't that therefore mean that Crouch Jr is still actually alive? Seeing as she was the one to guard him after he passed out after the veritaserum affair? Surely evil!McGonagall wouldn't let Voldemort's 'most loyal servant' be taken away? And then there's the fact that no-one besides her actually 'saw' the Dementor kiss him... So, if she is actually evil, then I think that Crouch Jr is actually alive, and she just made up the story of him being kissed so he could be smuggled out of Hogwarts under Dumbledore's nose. I went back to the original Evil! McGonagall post (39470) but the concensus there is that McGonagall wanted Crouch Jr to be kissed and let it happen. And that's all for now! ~<(Laurasia)>~ From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Mar 9 05:41:17 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 05:41:17 -0000 Subject: Heir In-Reply-To: <01b201c2e5ea$77540c20$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53486 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Taryn Kimel" wrote: > bboy_mn: > ...edited... > > King Arthur became King not by some provable line of blood but > because the next true heir, the one person worth of becoming king > would be the man who could pull the sword from the stone. King by > birthright of worthiness, not by birthright of blood. > > Me: > ...and he just /happens/ to be the son of Uther. > > It can really depend on which version of the legend you're following. > > --Taryn bboy_mn: I assume you are referring to Arthur and not Harry. I admit that I am working off only a general knowledge of the legend of Arthur, but I don't think anyone said, 'Oh, you're Uther's son, well, I guess that means you get to be king'. There may have been other people who had some royal blood but try as they might, they couldn't pull the sword from the stone. So I was only using a small portion of the legend to make my point. Arthur became king because he proved his worthiness by pulling the sword from the stone. Blood or no blood, no sword = no king. By analogy, as applied to Harry, he proves his worthiness not by strength of arm, but by strength of character when he 'pulls the sword from the stone', or perhaps in Harry's case, pulls the sword from the hat. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Mar 9 06:35:29 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 06:35:29 -0000 Subject: :How does Winky know Dobby In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53487 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sevenhundredandthirteen" wrote: > > bboy_mn wrote: > > > >So we have Mother and Grandmother, is it safe to assume that means > >that somewhere there is a Father and a Grandfather? > Laurasia: > Yeah, in the House-elf Breeding And Reproduction Faciltiy (B.A.R.F.) > of course!!! :) > The B.A.R.F. is responsible for pairing elves and producing little > baby elves. :D > Bboy_mn again: Thanks I needed that. I made me laugh out loud several times. So it would seem that to a house-elf, house-elf BARF would be a good thing. - - - - - > > bboy_mn: > >I'm reminded of a very long discussion we had over the term 'Manor'. A 'house' is not as simple as a house; ... > Laurasia: > "bound to serve one house and one family forever ...' Stress the > AND. ..., and what's more- Dobby's general grammar and sentence > structure aren't always to be relied ... I suppose it all comes > down to interpretation. > bboy_mn again: Let's not forget, '..we keeps our master's secrets and our silence...' that's not a direct quote from Dobby, but it's close enough. So we have 'house and family' and 'secrets and silence'; I'm sure there are other example too of the weird way in which Dobby structure his sentences. At sometimes his speech is oddly formal in terms of language, at other times it seems very primitive. So personally, I take the 'house and family' as just Dobby's odd way of speaking. On an unrelated note: Can hous-elves read and write? I think not, it's typical not to educate slaves because their master know the deep wisdom of the phrase 'Knowledge is Power'. - - - - - - - > > And that's all for now! > > ~<(Laurasia)>~ Just a few extra thoughts. bboy_mn From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sun Mar 9 06:39:30 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 01:39:30 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Gryffindor Quidditch Team Message-ID: <37.354d01df.2b9c3ba2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53488 In a message dated 3/7/03 5:14:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, ecprincess78 at yahoo.com writes: > I have noticed these references of "there are only three BOYS in > Harry's year, so who will play Quidditch for Griffindor?" (pardon the > lack of actual post) Why are only the boys available for > speculation? I know that some posters have presented girls, but > there are many of these without boys?!>. I always was under the impression that Quidditch was kind of like American football (is that what the rest of the world calls it? Why couldn't us Americans think of a sport name that wasn't already taken?!?!? Oh well...back to HP!), girls play but it's not really a "girl thing". The Gryffindor girls being exceptions. Not many of the girls are interested unless they're of an athletic nature. On another note, does the lack of extracurricular activities in that castle bother anyone else? I cannot imagine school without band and chorus and ... well, I didn't play sports but I know kids who would've gone nuts without them. They only club they had was the Dueling Club, and we all read how well that went.....Any ideas/comments/theories/flames? ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ (Who will be in Disney World in 44 days!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lilpurplealdy at netscape.net Sun Mar 9 06:47:22 2003 From: lilpurplealdy at netscape.net (Juliet) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 06:47:22 -0000 Subject: twins/time-turner, Trelawny, and JKR In-Reply-To: <20030308212219.71910.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53489 Christine: >>This isn't a question, but it does have to do with recent posts. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that JKR said that wizard children do not go to school before Hogwarts. This might be a British thing. Maybe they do in other countries. If this is so, how do they learn to read and do simple math and things like that? Parents? What if someone's parents are like the Dursleys and don't teach them anything? Do they take remedial courses?>> I'm positive this has been discussed before. Next time you want to check for answers, try searching the archive. I don't really have any answers for you on it, except that maybe they hire tutors or maybe it's somehow recquired of parents to teach their children. *shrugs* "The World may never know." *eats a Tootsie Pop* >>Does anyone else thing Gred and Forge had their sneaky little hands on a time-turner in GoF when they correctly predicted a completely unlikely outcome to the match AND bet their life savings on it?>> Well, how could they have gone through the QWC, not betting, finding out who won, and then go back through, after they knew who won, and somehow get themselves to bet? No no no. You can't change the past. If you already know something has happened, you can't go back and change it. It's confusing, I know. But take Hermione's use of it for example. When she missed the Charms class on Cheering Charms, it was because she had gone back in time to go and work on Arithmancy in the commons(I'm not looking directly at my book, but I'm being pretty accurate, I think), and she feel asleep. When Harry and Ron woke her, they told her she's missed her class. Thus, she could not go back and make-up her Charms class, as she had already been absent from it. Hope I'm making sense, here... >>Why does Dumbledore keep Trelawny around? She is pretty much a fraud except for the one accurate prediction she makes (which she doesn't even remember.)>> Actually, she makes two. When Harry describes what Trewlaney did that night, Dumbledore says something along the lines of how that might have very well been her second only real precition. Why does he keep her? uh...comic relief? :) Or maybe getting a new Divination Professor would be as hard as finding a DADA one, and he just doesn't want to go to the trouble. Or, perhaps, he doens't mind waiting around for however long it takes for her to make a *real* prediction, even though she doesn't remember it nor does anyone bother to tell him the second time it happens. ~Aldrea, wishing Christine a "Welcome to HP4GU, hope you enjoy it here!" From zoomphy at yahoo.com Sun Mar 9 09:59:48 2003 From: zoomphy at yahoo.com (Antoinette Marie) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 09:59:48 -0000 Subject: Evil!Minerva, a couple more knuts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53490 I was just reading some old posts about Evil!McGonagall, and it made a lot of sense to me. Anyway, I thought of something that might possibly relate to this theory. Someone (I can't remember who) mentioned how she is always wearing Slytherin clothes (green robes). And according to Post 6741 (I know this is mentioned in the books but I don't know where), she "Refuses to favour Gryffindor above other houses." Which got me to thinking--you know, if Snape is roughly the same age as the Marauders, he couldn't have been on staff for very long. So who was the Head of Slytherin House before Snape? Could it have been... dum dum DUM... Minerva McGonagall??? I know the link is tenuous and not supported by canon at all, but who knows? Maybe she got switched over to Griffyndor somewhere along the line, and since it might blow her cover to be lenient toward Slytherins, and she doesn't care for Griffyndors, she just figures she'll be strict with everyone. :D And on a side note, it is supposed to be revealed in the coming books about the marital status of some of the professors. This could lead credence to the "McGonagall is LV's secret lover" theory. Talk about a bang! Zoomphy From lupinesque at yahoo.com Sun Mar 9 10:05:53 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 10:05:53 -0000 Subject: FOUND IT: Charlie's No. 2 In-Reply-To: <002501c2e5ec$844bd500$3705a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53491 Steve quoted: > > PoA; Am. PB., Chapter 'Quidditch Final', Pg 301 - "Gryffindor hadn't > > won the Quiiditch Cup since the legendary Charlie Weasley (Ron's > > second oldest brother) have been Seeker." [Ed. note: "have been Seeker"?] and added: > > This would confirm that indeed Bill is the oldest brother. Amanda wrote: > It would confirm only that he is indeed the oldest brother *now,* at the > moment. I happen to be a "missing Weasley child" adherent (and, relatedly, a > "seventh-son Ron" follower), and so I must devil's advocate and point this > out. Most missing-Weasley/seventh-son adherents buttress their speculations with the fact that there is a large gap between Charlie and Percy, however. If there was a brother in that spot, his death wouldn't have changed Bill's or Charlie's position. Amy Z -------------------------------------------------------- "This is the weirdest thing we've ever done," Harry said fervently. -PA -------------------------------------------------------- From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sun Mar 9 07:50:25 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 07:50:25 -0000 Subject: Don't Tell Molly (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53492 This is a filk of the song "Don't Tell Momma" from the original production of the musical "Cabaret". Don't tell Molly (Fred & George Weasley are concerned that their true vocation will come to the attention of their mother, Molly Weasley.) Fred: Momma thinks we're studying for O.W.L.s For if we pass the O.W.L.s We'll become Head Boys with ease. George: Momma doesn't even have an inkling That we're opening a joke shoppe To make "Weasleys' Wizzard Wheeze." Fred: So please, sir, If you run into my Momma Don't reveal our indiscretion. George: Or we'll shower you with fleas... Both: Hush up! Don't tell Molly! Shush Up! Don't tell Molly! Don't tell Molly whatever you do. If you had a secret, You bet, we would keep it. We would never tell on you. Fred: We're breaking every promise that we gave her, George: So won't you do two "beamish boys" a great big favor. Both: So let's trust one another; Keep this from our mother. Though our scheme is not against the law, Fred: You can tell my father he won't sing, George: 'Cause eckletricity is his thing; Both: But don't tell Molly what you saw. Fred: Momma thinks we're only playing Quidditch, And to be the best of Beaters Is the zenith of our dreams. George: Momma doesn't even have an inkling That we have a secret factory Where we make Canary Creams. Fred: So please, sir, If you run into our Momma Don't reveal our indiscretion. George: Or we will go to extremes... Both: Hush up! Don't tell Molly! Shush Up! Don't tell Molly! Don't tell Molly what ever you do. If you had a secret, You bet, we would keep it. We would never tell on you. Fred: She'd sentence us immediately without a pardon George: To clearing all those pesky gnomes out of our garden. Both: So please, my "sweet potater", Keep this from the mater. Though our aims are pure as mountain snow, Fred: You can keep our Percy in the loop, George: And we'll put beetles in his soup; Both: But don't tell Molly what you know. Fred: You can tell our Ronnie, that's not grim, George: 'Cause if he squeals on us we'll squeal on him. Fred: But don't tell Molly please sir. George: Our good names would suffer, Both: Don't tell Molly what you know. So if you see our Mummy, "mum's" the word! Haggridd From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Sun Mar 9 02:32:01 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 02:32:01 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry & Hermione Siblings? References: <3E6AA03D.000001.28317@monica> Message-ID: <3E6AA7A1.000001.28317@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 53493 Me: My comments were badly phrased. I meant we didn't know the details of how the system worked. In other words whether Minerva and the rest of the staff knew the names of the other elevens .... Drat, drat, drat that doesn't make sense. I meant UNDER elevens. Sorry - that'll teach me to try doing three things at once. Sorry, sorry, sorry. K From lunalarea at hotmail.com Sun Mar 9 04:24:27 2003 From: lunalarea at hotmail.com (Verin Haley) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 04:24:27 -0000 Subject: Cabbage smell In-Reply-To: <20030308235314.41682.qmail@web40513.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53494 Polyjuice!Arabella: But, Harry also said the apothecary smelled like cabbage, so that leads me to believe that potion ingredients in general smell like cabbages. So possibly, if you noticed this conncection in PS/SS you would have known in the first book that Arabella Figg has some connection to potions and the WW. Also, I would take into account the relative difficulty of brewing polyjuice. It takes a month to brew a potion that will last (depending on consumption) an hour. At the most, a day? Continuously using polyjuice through Harry's youth seems a bit difficult. Even if she was only using it when Harry was there or when she needed to make a "public" appearance, there's still the possibility someone will stop by unexpectedly or will look in her windows. I think it's far more likely that Figg, if she's under the continuous influence of any potion at all (which is potentially dangerous, I would think), is probably under something like the aging potion the twins took in GoF to get past the aging line. While it is possible the twins knew about the age line through some nefarious source ahead of time, I tend to think not. "An Age Line!" Fred Weasley said, his eyes glinting, as they made their way across the hall. "Well, that should be fooled by an "Aging Potion, shouldn't it?" (GoF 256 hardcover) They *could* have been planning to use an Aging Potion since the beginning of the year feast when the age restriction was released, but the implication that the Aging Potion is more common or well-known than polyjuice (the Twins immediately think of it and Hermione's comment that Dumbledore will have thought of it) means it's probably an easier/faster/more legal potion to make. Therefore, Figg's probably more likely to take it than polyjuice. -Verin From erikal at magma.ca Sun Mar 9 05:35:49 2003 From: erikal at magma.ca (Erika Lachapelle) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 23:35:49 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Evil!lupin: a rebuttal References: Message-ID: <001f01c2e5fd$bef1cf00$1b8b1a40@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 53495 Hi The issue of prejudice in relation to Evil!Lupin was touched on somewhat earlier in this thread, but I wanted to add my two cents on it in the broader context of the novels. Here goes... Nobody's Rib wrote: I adore Lupin, and every time I reread PoA I fall a little more in love with him - but I think that's part of the genius of having him be a, uh, wolf in sheep's clothing. I do not think I am alone in my Lupin-love; in fact, I think he is purposefully set up to be a sympathetic character for readers to like. And if a reader does not specifically like him, they are at least set up (with the anti- werewolf sentiments of the WW fully discussed) to sympathize with his ostracization. *No one* (ahem, except for us investigative listees) would suspect him. Which makes him the perfect mole. Me: While I agree that in a mystery novel Lupin would indeed be an ideal candidate for a mole, I like to think that Rowling's writing is more than a simple whodunit story in which we must suspect the least suspected. I have always enjoyed stories in which the werewolf is the good guy and would be rather disappointed to find out that Lupin was in fact evil. However, I would also be disappointed because it seems to me that it would undermine an important theme in Rowling's novels: that of prejudice. We see prejudice based upon wealth and bloodlines in the novels(the Malfoys' attitudes towards the Weasleys and Muggle-borns in particular). The stigma associated with Lupin's lycanthropy is just another form of prejudice; he is discriminated against for having a disease essentially. Would it not, then, confirm those prejudices if he turned out to be evil? Would it not allow those who believe that people afflicted with this condition are inherently dangerous or evil to say 'I told you so'? It seems to me that the Evil!Lupin theory only works to confirm such prejudices, and thus would undermine one of the series' major themes. Nobody's Rib wrote: Just as the WW automatically dislikes Lupin for his werewolf status, the readers tend to like him for the same reason. (Isn't it always easy to take sides with the person who is the target of bigotry and prejudice?) But to trust someone because they are the victim of prejudice is just as dangerous as not trusting someone for the same reason - because the evidence forming both these stances comes from the *prejudice* rather than the *person*, the *rumors* rather than the *facts*, and completely discounts the *choices* the person has made. Me: I'm not suggesting that we trust characters solely because they are targets of discrimination. I think, though, that the fact that people are willing to argue against the Evil!Lupin theory as they have during this thread, and that they are able to use canon evidence to support their arguments, suggests that our trust Lupin is not solely based on his being the underdog (underwolf?), just as our fondness of Ron is not based on his being poor. Yes, choice is also an important theme (as Dumbledore points out at the end of CoS), but so is prejudice, and I would just hate to see one emphasised at the expense of the other. Just 2 cents from a newbie Wolfraven AKA Erika From hphgrwlca at yahoo.com Sun Mar 9 06:41:26 2003 From: hphgrwlca at yahoo.com (Christine Acker) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 22:41:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Why didn't they ask Lupin? (was Poor snivelling little Peter) In-Reply-To: <1047180527.3242.82153.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030309064126.16918.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53496 Christine here again. Why didn't the Potters ask Lupin to be their Secret-Keeper? Could it possibly have anything to do with his being a werewolf? I can't imagine why (or maybe I'm just too tired to think). Didn't they trust Lupin and Sirius equally? They (or James at least) would have had to trust and love Lupin to learn to be an animagus for him and stand by him when everyone else shuns him b/c he's a werewolf. Any theories? Christine, who really needs to go to sleep but is having way too much fun with this group right now, and is yet another huge punctuation-lover __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From hphgrwlca at yahoo.com Sun Mar 9 06:58:41 2003 From: hphgrwlca at yahoo.com (Christine Acker) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 22:58:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Harry & Hermione Siblings? In-Reply-To: <1047180527.3242.82153.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030309065841.19614.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53497 So the quill writes down the names of magical children at birth. I tend to think that there is something else to this quill. JKR may not have told us everything about it. So this is my theory: The quill writes down the names of the children *as given* at birth. It has some magical property that keeps track of the children, so if their name changes, the quill *magically* knows, and the name the quill records originally changes too. McGonagall wouldn't know if this happens; she doesn't look ahead ever. Also, if a magical child moves to Britain, the quill takes down that name too. Once again, McGonagall would never know. Anyone else have any theories? Christine, who is now even more tired and isn't exactly sure why she put the bits about McGonagall in her post, but is too tired to think about it so will now shut up and go to sleep __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From patricia at obscure.org Sun Mar 9 09:20:38 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 04:20:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? In-Reply-To: <007001c2e5ca$9a85a700$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53498 On Sat, 8 Mar 2003, Taryn Kimel wrote: > Norm: > The text (which I'll get to in a minute), seems more strongly to > suggest option 1). However, it seems to me that in order to be able > to go back later to conjure up a Patronus to save himself, somehow > Harry needs to be saved -- by himself, by his father, by Dumbledore, > by *someone* -- in the first place in order to survive to then come > *back* via Time-Turner to do it later. > > Me: > You're not quite comprehending the version of time travel JKR is using. > /Harry/ saved himself. By going back in time, Harry did not /change/ the > past. He, in fact, /caused/ it. In this version of time travel (which > I've seen in plenty other books and movies), you can't actually really > change the past. You simply cause it. It's always been caused because > you were in the past... It's a bit hard for me to say, I guess. ^_^;; Another way to say this (though I'm not sure if it makes it any clearer) is that with time travel the order of cause and effect can be rearranged. We are used to thinking of time in a linear fashion where a cause *always* preceeds its effect. But if time travel is possible, then it has to be possible for an effect to preceed its cause, whether the timeline changes or not. Once you discard the notion that cause has to preceed effect, time travel makes perfect sense. You no longer have to go through temporal gymnastics to force a situation where the future self's actions preceed the consequent effects on the past self just to keep cause prior to effect. You just have to keep in mind that the cause will occur (*will*, not *may*) in the future. The cause is still necessary, but it can occur after the effect as well as before it. It is actually a much simpler theory; it's just not the way we are used to thinking about cause and effect. Basically, you have to look at time from a divine perspective rather than a human one. As humans, we are only capable of seeing time move linearly in one direction (from past to present to future). You have to imagine instead that you are God and can see all of time at once. If all eternity exists at once, then all points in time are equal and the so-called past has no special precedence over the so-called present and future. The future is just as capable of determining the past as the past is of determining the future. Cause can happen at any time. It doesn't have to come before its own effect. Being human and having a limited perspective, thinking this way makes our brains hurt, but it is logically coherent. Yet another way of looking at the same idea: the appearance of moving through time is an illusion. Time actually stands still; it is only our position relative to time that changes. If I were riding in a car and looking out the window at the scenery, it would be easy for me to conclude that the world itself is changing, and changing in a particular order, from shoreline to coastal plain to foothills to towering mountains. But actually, the world is the same as it has always been. It is only my position in relation to the rest of the world that has altered. Someone travelling in a different car going the opposite direction would see the landscape changing in the opposite order, from mountains to shore, and it would seem just as natural from that perspective. Similarly, we see the past preceed the future because that is the direction we are moving in, but we could just as easily see the future preceed the past if we were moving in a different direction (i.e. time travel), and doing so would not change the timeline at all. The timeline stays the same. We just see different points of it depending on where we are. Now that I've thoroughly confused everyone, let me mention that this is my first post here. Hi, folks. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Sun Mar 9 10:33:01 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 10:33:01 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why didn't they ask Lupin? (was Poor snivelling little Peter) References: <20030309064126.16918.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3E6B185D.000001.44437@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 53499 Christine wrote - Why didn't the Potters ask Lupin to be their Secret-Keeper? Could it possibly have anything to do with his being a werewolf? I can't imagine why (or maybe I'm just too tired to think). Didn't they trust Lupin and Sirius equally? They (or James at least) would have had to trust and love Lupin to learn to be an animagus for him and stand by him when everyone else shuns him b/c he's a werewolf. Any theories? Me - I get the impression that James and Sirius were best friends and that while James did trust and love Lupin, he trusted Sirius *more*. It's Sirius who we see in the wedding pictures (we do right? I'm not imagining that?), Sirius that is Harry's godfather. It's possible that Sirius and James knew each other before they went to Hogwarts - it would seem logical that wizarding children have wizarding friends and I can't see why James would stop beingg friends with someone after he got to Hogwarts (unless they were sorted into another house maybe) so if he had pre-Hogwarts friends they would have to be part of the foursome. I also think James and Sirius may have been more alike which would count for a lot when they were kids. Remus doesn't strike me as being as outgoing and mischievous (although obviously he's not the same now as he was as a child) which would be understandable since he has as secret he has to keep hidden. This would all mean that for James it was totally unthinkable that Sirius was the spy (and they knew there was one). the only other obvious candidates would be Peter and Remus - Sirius implies that Peter was more nervous, less bold than the others (although he could be rewriting the past based on what he knows now). In which case no matter how much they trusted Remus he would seem to be a more likely choice as the spy than Peter. It would imo take a great deal of nerve to spy on your friends for Voldemort for an entire year without getting caught. So who is the more likely suspect - calm, brave Remus or slightly nervous Peter? I see Remus, who I don't think trusts easily, giving his trust wholeheartedly once he does give it, so he assumes that there is someone else spying on them. Sirius on the other hand works backwards from the idea that the spy *must* be one of them - it's clearly not James and he knows he isn't the spy, Peter wouldn't be capable therefore no matter how unbelievable - it must be Remus. Once he has expressed this feeling to James and/or Lily they cannot take the risk, no matter how tiny, that Sirius is right and so cannot trust Remus with the secret. I understand Sirius assuming it was Remus much more than I do James frankly since James couldn't know for certain it wasn't Sirius, whereas Sirius could K From siamkatze_33 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 9 10:48:45 2003 From: siamkatze_33 at yahoo.com (Karin) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 10:48:45 -0000 Subject: Some thoughts about Peter (was: Re: Evil!lupin: a rebuttal) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53500 Hello, newbie here, briefly delurking for my first post. English is not my first language, but I hope it doesn't show too much. I hope what I'm trying to say makes some kind of sense and is not just rambling. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Juliet" wrote: > Peter was never really *bad* from the get go, he was just weak. Weak- > willed, no self confidence...not really Bad, IMO. I agree that Peter has no self-confidence, but I don't think that means Peter is weak. I know, everyone says so. Most if not all of the characters who know him seem to be of the opinion that he's weak. A coward. Needing the protection of people stronger than him. I think, and this wasn't even my idea in the first place, that they all underestimate him, and his abilities. But this is not my point. This has all been said before. What I don't think has been said before (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that the reasons why Peter does the things he does is because not only do the others underestimate him, but he underestimates himself. If everyone tells him how his friends in school always do so much better than him, it's not surprising that he's having an inferiority complex. He has no confidence in himself. We've seen a glimpse of his real talents in the way he was able to deceive his friends who knew him well, and later frame Sirius. He's an animagus (which is not easy to learn). He cast an AK on Cedric, which requires a very powerful wizard to cast, according to Crouch/Moody. But what I think shows strength of character is the fact that he is, if my memory is correct, the only DE who openly questions his master's orders. Not very successful, but he does. Voldie had better be careful how he treats (or mistreats) his personal servant. Until now, Peter puts up with it because he thinks he needs someone to protect him and he has nowhere else to go. But what if he changes his opinion about that? What if, for some reason, he gets a bit of self-confidence and finally realizes that he is not as 'incompetent' as everyone thinks he is? And something else I noticed (slightly unrelated): It might not have any significance, but I think Peter is left-handed. In GoF, Peter cuts off his right hand, the same hand he had previously cut his finger off. To me, this indicates he is left-handed. I myself am right-handed, and if I ever felt the urge to cut off one of my hands (yuck!), it would be my left hand, simply because I can handle a knife better with my right hand. So I conclude that Peter was left-handed. I'm not sure if this has any significance, though. Maybe in a symbolic way? But maybe JKR didn't put that much thought in it and just picked a hand at random. *shrugs* Okay, that's pretty much it, I'm hurrying back to lurkdom now. -Alhena From elfundeb at comcast.net Sun Mar 9 10:54:13 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 05:54:13 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dursleys' Fears (WAS: Redeeming the Dursleys References: <010d01c2dd6b$4631c060$2b570043@hppav> Message-ID: <002801c2e62a$39861a60$723b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53501 This is a *very* late response, but I've been out of town and trying to catch up. Eric Oppen wrote: > We know from JKR's statements in interviews (don't have URLs handy, sorry) > that we're going to find out a lot about the Dursleys in Book Five. > Maybe...maybe we find out _why_ they're so terrified of magic? > Indeed. I think we need an explanation, as the ones in the books don't quite add up. On the one hand, the opening page of PS/SS states that the Dursleys feared that someone would find out about their unDursleyish relatives. This is repeated in GoF. On the other hand, ch. 3 of GoF says that "fear of [Harry's] powers had led them to lock his school trunk in the cupboard." Certainly after PS/SS, Vernon's fear of magic being used against him or his family is not an abstract one - they have the hospital bill from Dudley's tail removal to prove it and a history of abusing Harry to think about. But the fear that Vernon demonstrates in the later books is virtually the same fear he shows in chapter 1 of PS/SS, before Harry even shows up on his doorstep with the fateful letter from Dumbledore. Eric went on to suggest that Vernon knows more about the magical world than he cares to admit, and suggests some possible reasons, including: > If Young Vernon Dursley had some really > unpleasant encounter with magic and wizards, his attitude would, IMNSHO, > become much more understandable. The family that ran the campgrounds where > the QWC took place might well have an uneasy feeling about magic and > "unusual" people, even after Memory Charms...and we don't know how effective > Memory Charms really are, now do we? A badly-applied Memory Charm could > have left him with just enough memories that he has a permanent aversion to > magic, even though he doesn't know why. Taking the memory charm first, I don't think anyone used a memory charm on Vernon. The Dursleys certainly didn't get memory charms after Dudley's tail was removed. (Remember how Dudley clutched his backside in GoF when the Weasleys arrived to pick Harry up?) Immediate families of witches and wizards seem to be exempt from the requirement that magic be hidden from muggles, or Petunia wouldn't remember about the teacups Lily turned into rats. Vernon seems to know way too much about magic to have had his memories erased, though he's got a strong case of denial about it. However, I agree that Vernon at least, and more probably he and Petunia together, were been victims - possibly on multiple occasions -- of the sort of magic that humiliated Vernon, and at least momentarily, made him fear for his life - just as the Ton-Tongue Toffee episode must have momentarily terrified Dudley. I will also propose that the perpetrators of the magic tricks played on Vernon were none other than "that double act, Sirius Black and James Potter . . . such a pair of troublemakers" that only the Twins could compare in terms of magical mischief. It seems right in character, knowing how they treated Snape. Possibly, every time Vernon has come into contact with wizards in his life, except Harry, someone performed an ugly magic trick on him. That is, in fact, what we see happening to Dudley. For someone such as Vernon who seems to need to feel powerful (why else would one derive pleasure from yelling at his subordinates?), the idea that there are people about with powers he doesn't share targeting him must be quite terrifying. If James and Sirius did prey upon Vernon, Vernon's dismissal of James and Lily as good-for-nothing weirdos and persistence in treating their deaths to be something they brought upon themselves can be seen as a way of rationalizing away his own humiliation and feelings of powerlessness. That would also explain why Petunia and Lily are no longer speaking. And it allows the Dursleys to rationalize their abuse of Harry as avenging their own magical *abuse*. Another reason why magical pranks seems to be a good explanation is that Vernon's fear doesn't seem to be explainable by any understanding of the real dangers of the wizarding world. There's no evidence anywhere that Vernon was aware of Voldemort's existence before Harry arrived. In PS/SS ch. 1, he doesn't pick up on the You-Know-Who reference he hears on the street. His concerns are all about the Potters; when he overheard Harry's name, "fear flooded him." But he has no idea what has happened to James and Lily at that point, only that these cultish people seem to be talking about someone with the same name as a nephew whose existence he'd like to forget. And if the Dursleys had learned anything significant about Voldemort and the DEs in the letter they received from Dumbledore, they'd be desperate for Dumbledore's protection and anxious to do whatever he asked. Instead, they're clinging to the idea that it's all some kind of joke and that James and Lily were "weirdos [who] asked for what they got, getting mixed up with these wizarding types." All the Dursleys have to do to avoid the risk of DE attack is to continue to do what Dumbledore wants them to do, which at the beginning of PS/SS is to send Harry to Hogwarts. Instead, Vernon goes to extraordinary lengths to prevent Harry from getting his Hogwarts letter. So I don't think they're relying on Dumbledore's benevolence to protect them from attack by Voldemort's loyal servants. They evidently think Dumbledore himself (and that wizarding school he runs) is the enemy, and have no understanding whatsoever of how Voldemort's anti-Muggle hatred could hurt them. Why would Vernon's prior humiliation at the hands of James and Sirius be significant? Well, for one thing, Vernon's determined blindness toward the wizarding world could have serious consequences if the Dursleys should someday be forced to personally confront the reality of Voldemort and his Muggle-hating DEs. For another, I think Sirius and Vernon are destined to meet again someday, with very interesting results. Well, it's a theory. Holes, anyone? Debbie preparing to unveil all her silly theories before OoP comes out so she will be positioned to claim her victories or, more likely, eat her humble pie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From elfundeb at comcast.net Sun Mar 9 11:43:14 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 06:43:14 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quidditch as Metaphor (was) The Gryffindor Quidditch Team References: <20030308052639.4297.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004001c2e631$12207c20$723b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53502 > Mr. Ed wrote, in part: > > What if Quidditch is an idea that > > overlays the entirety of the series? > > Petra Pan responded: > Yes, this is my reading of the main > narrative function of Quidditch too; the > Quidditch positions had struck me as > being reminiscent of archetypes when first > I read of them. JKR seems to be making > this metaphor between sport and hero's > journey with a very light touch though, and > as it is, I am not convinced that JKR has > already presented us with all that she > has to say about the similarities between > playing the Game of Quidditch and being > the Hero of your own Life. > I agree that JKR is using Quidditch metaphorically. Back in December I wrote a lengthy post analyzing the game as metaphor for Harry's struggle against Voldemort. (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/48192) Petra Pan: > Pettigrew very well may be the Snitch > in this metaphor and Ron trying to > turn him yellow, the color of gold, > may indeed be a bit of a punchline.. > Mr. Ed: > > Maybe the action in the story > > will reach its conclusion when Pettigrew > > is caught in a way that has some finality? > In my earlier analysis, I had simply suggested that the Golden Snitch simply represents victory. The idea that victory will turn on which side is able to *capture* Pettigrew for its own use is interesting, especially in light of Pettigrew's life debt to Harry. This would tie Harry's mercy to the eventual victory of the *light* side. However, the game must end with the capture of the Snitch, and I don't see Pettigrew's capture as the climax of the final battle, so I think I find the Golden Snitch as Victory to be more satisfactory. I should also add that my dictionary says that "snitch" also means "to take by stealth" which is of course the best way to catch the Snitch -- without the Snitch itself or the opposing Seeker realizing it (the Snitch is bewitched to evade capture as long as possible, according to QTTA). This would be an alternative, but fitting explanation for the Golden Snitch's name. Mr. Ed: > > I note that in the Voldemort wars, one > > of the key defenses is the use of a > > secret KEEPER -- and the goalie/chief > > defender position in the game is a > > keeper. > > Petra Pan: > I see these parallels too and am on the > lookout for the foils for the Chaser and the > Beater. I haven't come up with any > parallels yet.anyone? > I suggested previously that Harry needs the support of many chasers to succeed, and they are not always the same persons. In fact, the metaphorical occupants of these roles need not remain static throughout the series, since positions change hands as students leave school and others take their places. I also suggested the twins as Harry's on- and off-field beaters and Ron's willingness to sacrifice for Harry suggests a last-line-of-defense keeper-like role (though I don't think that actually means he will be the next Gryffindor keeper). To the extent that Ron and Sirius function as generational parallels, Sirius' intended role as James' [Secret] Keeper suggests that Ron is indeed intended to take on the role of metaphorical Keeper. I didn't spend any time in my earlier post assigning the roles of Voldemort's keeper, beaters and chasers to specific persons (Voldemort being the opposing Seeker, of course); I just treated the DEs generally as his team. Because there are so many gaps in our understanding of the DEs and their roles, it's hard to assign them metaphorical Quidditch positions. And in any event, a position's occupant is likely to change over time, as some players prove unworthy and others become unavailable. But I'll throw out some quick ideas anyway. One argument would favor Lucius as Voldemort's keeper, as he kept Voldemort's artifacts for him. However, he failed in his role because he abandoned his post when his seeker went missing. In another sense the Pensieve Four were Voldemort's keepers, since they were the ones who kept the faith after Voldemort disappeared. They might also be characterized as Chasers, though, since they were "chasing" down information from the Longbottoms that would help them restore Voldemort to power, i.e., put him back in the game. Whatever their role, however, they played dirty and Crucio'd the Longbottoms into insanity and were penalized for it, thus delaying Voldemort's return until Harry's magical training had advanced sufficiently for him to be a formidable opponent. Pettigrew and Voldemort's other spies might also be characterized as chasers, though Pettigrew comes by his information fortuitously, stumbling across Bertha in Albania or being offered the role of Secret-Keeper. Pettigrew, however, has also occupied the role of Keeper. During GoF, he literally kept Voldemort alive in his ugly baby form. And of course, he was once the [Secret] Keeper for the opposing team. These are just some ideas based on our very sketchy information to date, since the metaphor can't be fully fleshed out until the series is over. Debbie From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Mar 9 16:02:12 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 9 Mar 2003 16:02:12 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1047225732.40.35221.m8@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53503 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, March 9, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CST (GMT-06:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From flamingstarchows at att.net Sun Mar 9 16:35:34 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 10:35:34 -0600 Subject: twins/time-turner, Trelawny References: Message-ID: <003701c2e659$e963b9e0$b80a570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 53504 From: Juliet >>Does anyone else thing Gred and Forge had their sneaky little hands on a time-turner in GoF when they correctly predicted a completely unlikely outcome to the match AND bet their life savings on it?>> Cathy: I believe they just know their Quidditch teams extremely well and were willing to bet their savings on it...the fact that Bagman didn't think it was possible and offered very good odds didn't hurt. >>Why does Dumbledore keep Trelawny around? She is pretty much a fraud except for the one accurate prediction she makes (which she doesn't even remember.)>> Cathy: I suspect that *true* seers *are* extremely rare, and that their gift is inate more than learned. I believe that her first *real* prediction was something that was useful enough that it was worth keeping her around in case she made another, and that since there is a book for teaching Divination, she couldn't do a worse job than anyone else would be able to. I also think keeping her around may have been also another of life's lesson for the students. There has already been discussion that one of the reasons that Snape is kept around is that the students need to learn to deal with people like him in the real world. The same can be said for Trelawny - there are always people who claim to be more than they really are (for instance, Lockhart). Some of the students come to realize this, some don't. In any case, I think it would be much more frightening to have a Divination teacher who was a true seer who's predictions came true most of the time. It is just unfortunate for Harry that he's the most logical choice for Trelawny's death prophicies. From flamingstarchows at att.net Sun Mar 9 16:46:19 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 10:46:19 -0600 Subject: Evil!Minerva, a couple more knuts References: Message-ID: <004401c2e65b$698a9f20$b80a570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 53505 ----- Original Message ----- From: Antoinette Marie And according to Post 6741 (I know this is mentioned in the books but I don't know where), she "Refuses to favour Gryffindor above other houses." Which got me to thinking--you know, if Snape is roughly the same age as the Marauders, he couldn't have been on staff for very long. So who was the Head of Slytherin House before Snape? Could it have been... dum dum DUM... Minerva McGonagall??? ----Me---- I would think the head of a house would be someone who had been it in that house when they were in school. It also wouldn't make any sense. If a teacher is head of a house, why wouldn't they remain head of that house? Why would they move to another one, especially to make way for someone younger? I would think that a person that is head of one of the houses would remain so until they retired, moved up (headmaster) or asked to be relieved of that duty. If they asked to be releived of the duty (i.e. due to advanced age), they certainly wouldn't want to take on another. I think McGonagall is toughest on her own house because she expects a lot out of them. She also probably goes out of her way to make it clear that she doe *not* play favorites, which means she is more severe with her own students. ~Cathy~ From btk6y at virginia.edu Sun Mar 9 16:53:56 2003 From: btk6y at virginia.edu (btk6y) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 16:53:56 -0000 Subject: Ron is Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: <20030309032843.73822.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53506 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Andrea wrote: > --- Kathryn Cawte wrote: > > At this point his knowledge of the future becomes totally useless to him > > (because things have changed so much) but he carries on trying to do > > what he thinks is best for the ww. > > ...But the entire point of the Ron!Dumbledore theory was to explain how > Dumbledore seemed to know all of these things that he *shouldn't* know, > unless he lived them as Ron. > > > Andrea Me: -Plus, with that theory you would lose the recurring loop that is needed for time to continue. If the New Ron grows up in a world where Voldemort is defeated by Harry, why would he decide to go back in time? Even if he did decide to go back in time for some unknown reason, he would meet both the original DD AND Ron!Dumbledore- there would be no recurring loop like there is in PoA b/c the circumstances that caused Ron!Dumbledore to go back in time no longer exist. Hope that wasn't too confusing... Bobby From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Sun Mar 9 17:35:43 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 17:35:43 -0000 Subject: Dursleys' Fears (WAS: Redeeming the Dursleys In-Reply-To: <002801c2e62a$39861a60$723b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53507 > Eric Oppen wrote: > > > We know from JKR's statements in interviews (don't have URLs handy, sorry) > > that we're going to find out a lot about the Dursleys in Book Five. > > Maybe...maybe we find out _why_ they're so terrified of magic? > > > Debbie replied: > Indeed. I think we need an explanation, as the ones in the books don't quite add up. Me too. In the past I speculated rather tongue-in-cheek that Vernon may be the Weasley Muggle relative who's an accountant. (If you want to rise to the top in business, being an accountant is a good tactic.) Debbie argued that Vernon's antipathy to magic is more likely to result from pranks by James and Sirius than from Voldemort's activites. I think another possibility is that Vernon suffered from Voldemort's use of magic, or saw suffering inflicted by it, but assumed that it was James and his friends who were responsible. Dobby's use of the pudding to frame Harry could foreshadow this. It is of interest that Vernon appears to understand very little of what magic can do (one reason why it's actually hard to argue that he's a squib, Weasley relative or no.). For example, when the letters in PS start to arrive, he blocks the letter box, and Petunia warns him that's unlikely to work. He cuts her off quite brusquely, implying her objections indicate a lack of resolve. Quite what this means about his fears I'm not sure. David, who thinks Colonel Fubster has a good chance of turning out to be a wizard From patricia at obscure.org Sun Mar 9 16:07:03 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 11:07:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why didn't they ask Lupin?/Did Sirius value Peter's life? In-Reply-To: <20030309064126.16918.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53508 On Sat, 8 Mar 2003, Christine Acker wrote: > Christine here again. > > Why didn't the Potters ask Lupin to be their > Secret-Keeper? Could it possibly have anything to do > with his being a werewolf? I can't imagine why (or > maybe I'm just too tired to think). Didn't they trust > Lupin and Sirius equally? They (or James at least) > would have had to trust and love Lupin to learn to be > an animagus for him and stand by him when everyone > else shuns him b/c he's a werewolf. > > Any theories? James was closer to Sirius than to any of his other friends. He trusted him completely. Sirius tells us in PoA that he suspected Remus was the spy. It's reasonable to assume Sirius would have expressed these concerns to James and Lily. While I'm sure it was hard for Lily and James to consider any of their friends a potential spy, the evidence was clear that someone was spying, so "equal" love and trust could no longer be an option. So since they knew *someone* was a spy, and the one person they trusted completely thought it was Remus, Remus would have seemed like a very bad choice for Secret Keeper. The fact that Sirius suspected Remus also explains why he wanted Peter to be Secret Keeper (to tie in to a related thead). It wasn't that he didn't value Peter's life. It was that he valued James and Lily's lives so much that he wasn't willing to trust even himself. Simply being a Secret Keeper doesn't place anyone in danger. Being *known to the Death Eaters* as a Secret Keeper places your life in danger. If they don't know (or suspect) your status, you are in no more danger than anyone else. But if they think you are a Secret Keeper (even if you're not), you are in great danger. Sirius knew he was only human and that it was possible he might break under torture and betray James and Lily, even though he did not want to. By switching with Peter but not telling Remus (the suspected spy) Sirius figured he was taking all the risk of the Secret Keeper on himself, but without the risk that he would break under torture and betray the Potters. What I want to know is why the Potters didn't take up Dumbledore's offer to be Secret Keeper. Yes, they loved and trusted Sirius completely and Sirius is a pretty powerful wizard, but he's nowhere near Dumbledore's level. The only thing I can imagine is that they let their emotional attachment to Sirius get in the way of their critical judgement. Can anyone come up with a better explanation? ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Sun Mar 9 18:41:05 2003 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 18:41:05 -0000 Subject: more Ron!Dumbledore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53509 Could the Ron!Dumbledore theory also explain why Dumbledore's heart's desire is for new socks?! (PS - "Mirror of Erised") Because his heart's desire is to be with his family again - represented by his mother's hand-made Christmas presents - like the socks Ron receives in GoF and gives to Dobby without a second thought. Or perhaps telling Harry this in Year 1 was an inside joke because he knew Harry would be meeting Dobby soon - as a hint on how precious socks would be to him (Dobby). Oh the possibilities - I love this theory. -Ing From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 9 19:10:24 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 19:10:24 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cabbage References: <1047180527.3242.82153.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001501c2e66f$8a6490c0$bb4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 53510 Taryn wrote: >I'm sure there are /many/ who would dispute that fact. I personally don't care for cabbage, but >tons of people enjoy eating it (including my dad). (My mom says the trick to cooking it is /not/ to >overcook it.) /Maybe/ Mrs. Figg just happens to /enjoy/ cabbage. I've always read this bit as just a bit of shorthand about the cooking habits of many old folks in the UK. Traditionally the method of cooking vegetables in the UK was to boil them to buggery until they scream for mercy. Nowadays (thanks to the work of the Brassica Liberation Front) veggies are more kindly treated by most of us. However, there are still older people (my mam is one) who still believe in boiling all the texture out. Also, culturally, it used to be the case that it was a matter of pride (and even status) for a woman to cook "meat and 2 veg" for a meal, rather than doing something pre-prepared. Once again, this is mainly with the older generation now. So if you smell boiled cabbage, chances are that it's an old person's house. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From piskmiffo at hotmail.com Sun Mar 9 12:31:47 2003 From: piskmiffo at hotmail.com (piskmiffo) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 12:31:47 -0000 Subject: Ron!Dumbledore In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030308145631.00963ae0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53511 Gulplum: to rely on the Time Turner to resolve the series would be like, > >way too easy. how come Dumbledore seems to know so much about what the Trio are up to. > The beauty of it is that every objection to Dumbledore's refusal to "fix" > things can be simply explained by his knowledge that he can't (or at least > *shouldn't*) change what he knows to have occurred. > Me: Yes, that is what I had in mind. The main character of the books *IS* Harry Potter, and I'd bet 20 horses on him staying the main character. The reason I can see why Ron!Dumbledore would exist, is to SAVE Harry, so that he can defeat Voldemort. And I do NOT believe that Ron!Dumbledore was the one who stopped Voldemort killing Harry Potter as a 1-year-old. I want to believe he did that all by himself. ;) And I can't see why Harry should be less of a main character just because of Ron!Dumbledore helping him instead of a None!Dumbledore (okay, that was bad :P). He gets help all the time. Without supporting characters, there wouldn't even be a Voldemort to defeat, and what a sad place it would be then. Gulplum: > Don't worry about it. I don't think any of REDHEAD ALWAYS's supporters > actually believes it's going to come true, but it's terrific fun > nevertheless. :-) Me: I think it's a theory that works, hehe. But, I do not think (I REALLY HOPE THOUGH!!!) that the path JKR has chosen is this one. Here's some more stuff to add to the dough. >From The Connection Interview: http://www.sugarquill.net/forum/index.php? act=ST&f=6&t=2073&s=8742fd7ea668b82ffe761cd5725f1aa3 Teacher: Anyway, it's very exciting. We just love Harry Potter. We're curious ---- well first of all we can't wait for Books 4, 5, 6 and 7. But after that, we're curious as to whether Harry is going to have a life after Hogwarts, or if maybe, Harry might be a Hogwarts teacher. JKR: Well, because all your kids said `hello' so nicely in the background there, I am going to give you information I haven't given anyone else and I will tell you that one of the characters, one of Harry's classmates, though it's not Harry himself, does end up a teacher at Hogwarts. But, it is not, maybe the one you think, hint, hint, hint. Yeah, one of them does end up staying at Hogwarts, but --- - Radio Guy: Do the kids want to guess at it, Kathleen? Teacher: Do you guys have a guess as to who it is? (Kids shouting in background) Ron Teacher: They say Ron. JKR: No, it's not Ron. I can't see Ron as a teacher. No way. -------------------- Now, this could be taken as it's anyone except Ron, and that would mean that the WW and Hogwarts will indeed exist after the end of book 7. But as I see it (well, I want to see it), it could mean that, since Ron changes his name to Albus Dumbledore, "Ronald Weasley" is never a teacher at hogwarts. Ron!Dumbledore was still one of Harry's classmates, even though he changed his name. Then he would also fit into almost all of the books. I myself consider knowing that one of his classmates becomes a teacher AFTER the books end is pretty boring info. :P Oh, and now for something else: Could Lockhart be part Veela? /pisk From ultimatesen at aol.com Sun Mar 9 19:30:42 2003 From: ultimatesen at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 19:30:42 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore is Ron? (Grindewald possibility) In-Reply-To: <001301c2e466$68d54680$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53512 gregory: What I wonder about this is the whole Grindelwald thing.? It seems like it's a fact just pulled out of nowhere for no purpose.? At least, to this point it does.? But might there not be a larger purpose in there and if so what might it be? me: I would like to comment on this. Please give me some feedback. I've got a thought process about this. Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald (dark wizard). Dumbeldore has a scar on his knee of the London Underground. Dumbledore doesn't punish Harry for sneaking around at night when he found the mirror. He all but flat tells Harry how to use it. He guides him in each book.He gave him the cloak. Ok.. all of these things we know. I think that Dumbledore knows Harry is the only one that can defeat Voldemort. He is an all knowing sort. He's had experience defeating a dark wizard himself. This, I think, is why Voldemort is afraid of him. He's done it before. I think this would explain the twinkle at the end of GOF. Hagrid's said before he doesnt have enough human in him to die. This could mean he does now. Closer to the defeat. (I should hope so, 2 books left to do it!) Selena From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Sun Mar 9 19:44:22 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 19:44:22 -0000 Subject: Harry & Hermione Siblings? In-Reply-To: <20030309065841.19614.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53513 Christine Acker wrote: So this is my theory: The quill writes down the names of the children *as given* at birth. It has some magical property that keeps track of the children, so if their name changes, the quill *magically* knows, and the name the quill records originally changes too. McGonagall wouldn't know if this happens; she doesn't look ahead ever. Also, if a magical child moves to Britain, the quill takes down that name too. Once again, McGonagall would never know. Anyone else have any theories? Christine Now me: Hello all, Fred here. I think the same magic is used to keep track of the names that was used to keep track of where Harry was sleeping in PS/SS. At first, the letters were addressed to "Mr. H. Potter, The Cupboard under the stairs, 4 Privet Drive, Little Whinging, Surrey".(page 34, U.S.). Then, a second letter came addressed "Mr. H. Potter, The Smallest Bedroom, 4 Privet Drive -"(page 38), only to have another letter addressed "Mr. H. Potter, Room 17, Railview Hotel, Cokeworth. (page 42). And finally, a letter somehow knew Harry was not only in a new place, but exactly where he was sleeping, because a final letter was given to him by Hagrid, addressed to "Mr. H. Potter, The Floor, Hut-on-the-rock, The Sea.(page 51). So, if a quill knew exactly where Harry was staying AND sleeping for no less than 4 moves in a month, I am sure a quill would be able to keep track of something as a simple name change once in 11 years. Thanks; Fred Waldrop From jmholmes at breckcomm.com Sun Mar 9 19:51:51 2003 From: jmholmes at breckcomm.com (Julie Holmes) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 12:51:51 -0700 Subject: Harry and Hermione being siblings... References: <1047180527.3242.82153.m10@yahoogroups.com> <001501c2e66f$8a6490c0$bb4d6551@f3b7j4> Message-ID: <002501c2e675$546d3340$6401a8c0@arvada1.co.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53514 <----- Original Message ----- From: Taryn Kimel > Not wrong per se, but all women are different. Breastfeeding often supresses a woman's fertility (i.e. supresses the menses); however, in countries like the U.S. where breastfeeding a baby has hugely strayed from the ecological norm (the average age of weaning a child- worldwide - is four years; American infants are lucky if they get 6 months of breastfeeding) you will find womens' fertility returning much earlier after they have given birth. Even *exclusively* breastfeeding a baby through their infancy and continuing into toddlerhood is not a guarantee against pregnancy. Supressed fertility is nature's way of making sure a woman doesn't have too many children in too quick a succession. So, to answer your question, yes, it's possible to become pregnant again within weeks of giving birth, but many things factor into a woman's fertility. Although I don't subscribe to this theory myself, it would be possible for Harry and Hermione to be siblings. Some of the Weasley children are close in age- Ron and Ginny, specifically, seem to be around 12 to 18 months apart, seeing as they are only a year apart in school. And what about Bill and Charlie? We don't know exactly how far apart they are. There seems to be two years between Percy and the twins, and then between the twins and Ron. Yes, it is physically possible to bear two children within one year's time, and depending when birthdays fall, they can end up in the same year at school throughout their lives. I learned this the hard way- my children are 13 months apart! 0_0 And, due to my daughter having medical issues that caused her to miss *a lot* of school this year, they will be in the same year of school together even though there is a year's age difference between them. We are opting to have my daughter repeat Kindergarten, and she will be in the same class as her brother. One of my good friends is only 10 months older than her sister (they did end up in the same grade in school). Also, I remember a set of siblings I took care of when I worked in childcare during my college years, who were 8 months apart. Yes, you read that correctly. Not only were they 8 months apart, but it was to the DAY. One was born on February 8, the other October 8...of the same calendar year. The second was, obviously, premature, but there they were! :) Julie From ultimatesen at aol.com Sun Mar 9 19:55:09 2003 From: ultimatesen at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 19:55:09 -0000 Subject: Harry & Hermione Siblings? In-Reply-To: <20030309065841.19614.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53515 Christine: > So the quill writes down the names of magical children > at birth. I tend to think that there is something > else to this quill. JKR may not have told us > everything about it. So this is my theory: > > The quill writes down the names of the children *as > given* at birth. It has some magical property that > keeps track of the children, so if their name changes, > the quill *magically* knows, and the name the quill > records originally changes too. McGonagall wouldn't > know if this happens; she doesn't look ahead ever. > > Also, if a magical child moves to Britain, the quill > takes down that name too. Once again, McGonagall > would never know. > me: We've been told the same thing about the Sorting Hat. There's more to it than sorting. I do think however, that some of the professors know about Harry & Hermione (if in fact it is true). In COS when McGonagall comes to get Harry and says "yes I suppose you should come too Weasley". If she was merely coming to get Hermiones *friends* to let them know, why exclude Ron? Ron is *obviously* one of Hermione's running buddies. To me, it sounded like the tone when teachers get when they call you out of class when something bad has happened family wise. I could be wrong and I'm so open for other possibilities. I just happen to think this could be true (if it weren't for that darned Star Wars feeling hanging over my head). I just think that Hagrid, McGonagall & Dumbledore (if not Snape also) would know if Hermione was Harry's sister. Sen From ultimatesen at aol.com Sun Mar 9 19:47:49 2003 From: ultimatesen at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 19:47:49 -0000 Subject: Harry & Hermione Siblings? In-Reply-To: <00ec01c2e5f8$0077da60$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53516 penny: > The other argument against Harry and Hermione being siblings in my mind is the complete lack of genetic make-up between the two of them, more particularly the fact that Hermione bears no resemblance to what we know about James and Lily. Lots of people have unruly hair. me: I second that about the unruly hair. =o) Although, From what Ive understood, James = dark hair & eyes. Lily = red hair & green eyes. Hermione (if I'm not mistaken) has dark hair & eyes also. Sometimes children don't *always* look like their parents. They might resemble a grandparent or aunt more so than their own parents. I can't say the same because I could be my mother's doppleganger. I have seen a red headed blue eyed child come from a blond and brunette. The grandfather had red hair. Anythings possible in the genetics gamble. Some food for thought regarding the resemblence thought. Sen From cergordon at hotmail.com Sun Mar 9 17:16:46 2003 From: cergordon at hotmail.com (Cerys Gordon) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 17:16:46 +0000 Subject: Dumbledore forshadowing? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53517 I just finished rereading GoF last night and there was something Hagrid said that made me think that something bad is coming for Dumbledore. He said something about him be a great man and that as long has they had him things would be ok (sorry I don't have my book beside me as I would give the direct quote but its in the last chapter). It makes me think that either he will be killed or that he will go missing in their darkest hour. By the way I'm new here, I'm a librarian in Canada -Cer _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From gandharvika at hotmail.com Sun Mar 9 20:37:18 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 20:37:18 +0000 Subject: (FILK) THe Dark Side Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53518 The Dark Side (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune _Take A Walk On The Wild Side_ by the Velvet Underground) Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Pit/6854/The_Midi_Pages.htm#v Riddle was an excellent pupil Always able to charm the people With Dark Wizards he'd consort Changed his name, now he's Voldemort He says, "Hey wizards Come with me to the dark side." He says, "Hey y'all, Come with me to the dark side." Lucius was proud he was a pure-blood Really hated those Muggles and Mudbloods Wanted to see them all killed Was in the inner circle You know, Lucius Joined Voldemort on the dark side Said, Malfoy Came with him to the dark side And the Death Eaters go doo do doo do doo do do doo doo do doo do doo do do doo Peter was one of Potter's closest friends But one day that all came to an end A spy he was for one full year Before he was made Secret Keeper, but then Peter He was there on the dark side Said, Wormtail He was there on the dark side Barty Crouch Junior came from a good family But hung out with the wrong company He was found with D.E.s Should have heard him scream, scream, scream He said, "Father, I didn't do it," he cried Y'know, Barty He was caught on the dark side That's right, huh Snape was always into the Dark Arts Knew lots of curses right from the start 'Though he was thus inclined Something made him change his mind Said, Snape babe He was once on the dark side But now, Severus He ain't there on the dark side And the Death Eaters go doo do doo do doo do do doo doo do doo do doo do do doo -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From amani at charter.net Sun Mar 9 21:33:29 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 16:33:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwarts Teacher Neville(WAS: Re: Ron!Dumbledore) References: Message-ID: <003201c2e683$87399f80$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53519 pisk: >From The Connection Interview: http://www.sugarquill.net/forum/index.php? act=ST&f=6&t=2073&s=8742fd7ea668b82ffe761cd5725f1aa3 Teacher: Anyway, it's very exciting. We just love Harry Potter. We're curious ---- well first of all we can't wait for Books 4, 5, 6 and 7. But after that, we're curious as to whether Harry is going to have a life after Hogwarts, or if maybe, Harry might be a Hogwarts teacher. JKR: Well, because all your kids said `hello' so nicely in the background there, I am going to give you information I haven't given anyone else and I will tell you that one of the characters, one of Harry's classmates, though it's not Harry himself, does end up a teacher at Hogwarts. But, it is not, maybe the one you think, hint, hint, hint. Yeah, one of them does end up staying at Hogwarts, but --- - Radio Guy: Do the kids want to guess at it, Kathleen? Teacher: Do you guys have a guess as to who it is? (Kids shouting in background) Ron Teacher: They say Ron. JKR: No, it's not Ron. I can't see Ron as a teacher. No way. Me: Ooh, I'd never seen that before! Nice to have caught it (in a discussion I'm following with some interest, no less). I'm sure it's probably been discussed here before, ne? Well, I'm just going to take a guess at it for fun's sake and say Neville. In my mind, Hermione's also out of the running because she's "the one you think" in my mind. And Harry and Ron are out. And Neville's certainly not the kind you would think of (although you know the saying: those you cannot do, teach). But I'm a fan of Neville and also convinced that he's going to show a lot more promise in the future. After all, we have plenty examples of a good amount of power in him--he just lacks the control to properly use it. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Sun Mar 9 20:46:07 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 20:46:07 -0000 Subject: Harry and Hermione being siblings... In-Reply-To: <002501c2e675$546d3340$6401a8c0@arvada1.co.home.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53520 Taryn Kimel wrote: Actually, don't females have a few months after a birth when they can't become pregnant? Unless Diana Gabaldon has led me astray in her novels! ;) Correct me if I'm wrong, though.> ================================================================= Julie Holmes wrote: Not wrong per se, but all women are different. Breastfeeding often supresses a woman's fertility (i.e. supresses the menses); however, in countries likethe U.S. where breastfeeding a baby has hugely strayed from the ecological norm (the average age of weaning a child- worldwide - is four years; (snip) Even *exclusively* breastfeeding a baby through their infancy and continuinginto toddlerhood is not a guarantee against pregnancy. (snip)still be possible for Harry and Hermione to be siblings. Some of the Weasley children are close in age- Ron and Ginny, specifically, seem to be around 12 to 18 months apart,seeing as they are only a year apart in school. And what about Bill and Charlie? We don't know exactly how far apart they are. There seems to be two years between Percy and the twins, and then between the twins and Ron. :) Julie =================================================================== Hello all, Fred here, Well, I have stated in the past that I believe H/H are brother & sister. And as far as having 2 children in 10 months, my older sister was born Jan.12, and I was born Oct.6 of the same year. So I really do believe it can be done, I am living proof. But I feel I have a differing of opinion than others in here. Not only do I believe they are brother & sister, but I think they were born on the same day. That's right, I think they are twins. Maybe not identical twins, but twins all the same. And I think that is what took Hagrid so long to "deliver" Harry (the missing 24 hours), he had to stop off and "deliver" Harrys' twin sister, Hermione (was) Potter, (now) Granger. But this is just my opinion. Fred Waldrop From petitlapingris at yahoo.com Sun Mar 9 21:12:13 2003 From: petitlapingris at yahoo.com (petitlapingris) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 21:12:13 -0000 Subject: Is Snape A Cockroach? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53521 Bonjour, I think I have something here that hasn't been noticed before. In an interview, JKR said that she wouldn't like to turned into a cockroach. >http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/October_2000_Live_Chat_Ameri ca_Online.htm >Q: Does the animal one turns into as an Animagi reflect your >personality? >JKR: Very well deduced, Narri! I personally would like to think that >I would transform into an otter, which is my favorite animal. Imagine >how horrible it would be if I turned out to be a cockroach! And in PoA when Lupin is giving the lesson on the boggart, Lupin turn his moon orb into a cockroach to defeat the boggart. My theory is that someone is an animagi (Rita Skeeter turned into a beetle after all) and this is known by Lupin and by Dumbledore, considering that Cockroach Cluster is one of the passwords to his study. Doesn't Dumbledore know everything about his staff? If this animagi is known to Lupin and to Dumbledore, I propose that it is Snape. Bat-like he may be, but does he not also remind you of a cockroach somewhat? Greasy, dirty, living in the dungeons? Maybe this was how he did his spying for Dumbledore. Snape said that maybe Harry got the Marauder's Map straight from manufacturers, thus Snape may have been in transfiguration with Padfoot, Wormtal, Prongs and Moony. If Snape was in transfiguration with the Marauder's (current controversy aside), why can't Snape know how to transform? And don't you see a cockroach as the reflection of his personality? Lupin stepped on the cockroach, something he's not afraid of, and he's not afraid of Snape. Then again maybe I'm just a huge Garbagescow. Former lurker, newbie poster, PetitLapinGris From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Sun Mar 9 22:04:40 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 22:04:40 -0000 Subject: Harry & Hermione Siblings? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53522 Harry and Hermione could also be (fraternal) twins. If they were separated at birth and Hermione was hidden away in a muggle home, it wouldn't be a far stretch to falsify her birth certificate. (If Mr. and Mrs. Granger are in on the plan, they might also know Hermione's real birthday.) The magical quill that records the names of all witches and wizards at birth would certainly know about this, as would any Hogwarts teacher that happened to read through it. Also, if Hermione were given to the Grangers prior to her being named by the Potters, then there needn't be any "rewriting" by the quill of her name, location, etc. IMHO this is all too Star Wars for me, and I think JKR will have more clever plot twists ahead of us... but she also may be clever enough to take this idea and make it original. (For example, I cannot see her having a scene in which Ron, jealous of the connection between Harry and Hermione, accuses Harry of stealing his girl, and Harry replies, "she's my sister.") (Also, if there are any Greek, Roman, etc. myths about twins separated for protective reasons, she may be working off of this rather than directly ripping off Lucas.) - Nobody's Rib From julia at thequiltbug.com Sun Mar 9 22:13:58 2003 From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 14:13:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Harry and Hermione being siblings... Message-ID: <20030309141359.17964.h014.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53523 > Hello all, Fred here, > Well, I have stated in the past that I believe H/H are brother & > sister. And as far as having 2 children in 10 months, my older sister > was born Jan.12, and I was born Oct.6 of the same year. So I really > do believe it can be done, I am living proof. > But I feel I have a differing of opinion than others in here. Not > only do I believe they are brother & sister, but I think they were > born on the same day. That's right, I think they are twins. Maybe not > identical twins, but twins all the same. > And I think that is what took Hagrid so long to "deliver" Harry (the > missing 24 hours), he had to stop off and "deliver" Harrys' twin > sister, Hermione (was) Potter, (now) Granger. But this is just my > opinion. > Me: Now that "would" be interesting, wouldn't it? So what that they don't have the same birthday. One or the other of their birthdates could be fudged (I say Hermione's.) I think, though, that if they were twins, Hermione would have been hidden at birth, not at the time of Voldemort's defeat. Especially if there were a prophecy that James Potter's child would defeat Voldemort...they'd want them separated as much as possible. In addition, no one would know about her. If she weren't "hidden" until the Potters died, then Sirius, Lupin, etc would know about her, and they would have dropped *some* kind of hint by now. Unless Lupin knew, and that's why he didn't let Hermione fight the boggart in class, for the same reason he didn't let Harry fight it - he thought it would be Voldemort. I don't know if I'm for this theory yet, but it's interesting. Calliope (who thinks Hermione's exam boggart was NOT McGonagall, but rather dead!Harry or dead!Ron.) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/ http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sun Mar 9 22:39:35 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 22:39:35 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?There's_Always_a_Slyth=92rin_(filk)?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53524 We have dozens of Harry & Voldemort duets, but AFAIK no duets for Harry & Draco. Here's an attempt to rectify this shortage There's Always a Slyth'rin To the tune of There's Always a Woman, a Sondheim song written for Anyone Can Whistle (but not included in the show). It can be found on any of several Sondheim compilations (it's sung very fast, in a waltz tempo, with several interludes of spoken verbal ping=pong) Dedicated to Anne U. NO MIDI or sound files, but the "enchantingly nasty" original lyrics may be found here: http://libretto.musicals.ru/text.php?textid=19&language=1 THE SCENE: The Great Hall. Enter HARRY HARRY: There's always a Slyth'rin Inducing destruction, The pus in your mail The smear in the press There's always a Slyth'rin Producing obstruction. There's nothing as low as a Slyth'rin. Let me stress (Enter from the opposite direction, DRACO, approaching HARRY with insincere and exaggerated politeness) DRACO: Join you? . HARRY: No way! DRACO: How narrow. HARRY: OK. DRACO: My turn? HARRY: Yours. DRACO: There's always a Slyth'rin, The vaulting ambition. The one who soars higher Who masters each goal The cauldron they can't melt, Prestige and position! There's nothing that glows as a Slyth'rin. We control! HARRY: That it? DRACO: Sure. HARRY: Leaving? DRACO: Why not? HARRY: Ta-ta. (DRACO makes as if to leave, then returns to HARRY's side) DRACO: I lied. BOTH: It's always a Slyth'rin, Toward darkness inclined, HARRY: The troll in the toilet, DRACO: The planets aligned! BOTH: The cobbing in Qudditch The feigned injury. There's nothing as low/that glows as a Slyth'rin... (each turning to the other) I agree. HARRY: Git! DRACO: Wuss! HARRY: Dope! DRACO: Trash! HARRY: The ferret who's fleeing The snake in the chamber The "Potter Stinks" badges The muscly thugs It's always a Slyth'rin. Robed up like Dementors There's nothing as low as a Slyth'rin. Or as smug DRACO: Dormiens? HARRY: Draco DRACO: Longhorn? HARRY: Horntail? DRACO: Short-Snout? HARRY: Fireball? DRACO: Welsh Green? HARRY: Heb Black? DRACO: Ridgeback? HARRY: Viper .? DRACO: tooth? HARRY: Opaleye? DRACO: Titillandus . HARRY: Nunquam DRACO: There's always a Slyth'rin, With rules we all fiddle Our lineage perfect, Our heritage pure. We reject the Mudblood Unless he's a Riddle. Whoever he is, he's a Slyth'rin. That's for sure! HARRY: You'd .. DRACO: ....Know Who .. BOTH: It's always a Slyth'rin, HARRY: The jerk on the train DRACO: The fanfic redemption HARRY: The house-elf in chains BOTH: A Machiavelli Who's tacky/natty as hell. There's nothing as low/that glows as a Slyth'rin. Name your spell! DRACO: Disarming HARRY: Charming DRACO: Confusing HARRY: Stunning. DRACO: Freezing HARRY: Hurling BOTH: Extinguishing HARRY & DRACO (Alternately): Incendio's perfect- Diffindo is perfect- Let's set him on fire Just see him perspire Or just use a Bludger I could loose a Bludger Or Canary Creams. What would Salazar scheme, A charm that would tickle- A curse does the trick well- It'd be worth a wheeze. I know two or three. This moron's deficient- My wand is sufficient He won't hang around. Right flat to the ground. Whatever will do it, Whatever will do it, If any spell will. If any spell will. BOTH: There's nothing as low/that glows as a Slyth'rin. DRACO: Sneak. HARRY: Snake DRACO: Shrake. HARRY: Fake DRACO: Dork. HARRY: Crook. DRACO: Elf. HARRY: Wimp DRACO: Squib. HARRY: Cheat DRACO: Nerd. HARRY: Blonde (HARRY & DRACO quickly pull out their wands.) BOTH: Puh-leeez! Flick to kill! (Black-out) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From draco382 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 9 22:44:07 2003 From: draco382 at yahoo.com (draco382) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 22:44:07 -0000 Subject: Ron is Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53525 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "btk6y" wrote: > -Plus, with that theory you would lose the recurring loop that is > needed for time to continue. If the New Ron grows up in a world > where Voldemort is defeated by Harry, why would he decide to go back > in time? Even if he did decide to go back in time for some unknown > reason, he would meet both the original DD AND Ron!Dumbledore- there > would be no recurring loop like there is in PoA b/c the > circumstances that caused Ron!Dumbledore to go back in time no > longer exist. Hope that wasn't too confusing... Me: De-lurking for a moment to ask a question: In CoS, Harry is transported 50years into the past where he comes across a younger Dumbledore. So Dumbledore was AT Hogwarts as a professor. According to the HPLexicon, Dumbledore defeated Grindlewald in approximately 1942 and is the transfiguration professor at the same time. What i'm wondering is, in order to become a professor at Hogwarts, you would probably have to have some training and "work your way up the ladder" so to speak. Doesn't this mean that Ron would have to use the time-turner right after graduation (end of his seventh year at Hogwarts) in order to go back in time to the point where he can apply to Hogwarts as a young professor in transfiguration, and then stick around long enough to defeat Grindlewald, meet Tom Riddle, become headmaster, etc? does this mean that Harry DOESNT defeat Voldemort (and perhaps dies by the hand of V-mort) which means that Ron has to take up the mission, meaning that he has to go back in time and fulfill his duties as Dumbledore? I'm sorry if my questions are incoherent...this is a pretty cool theory, and I wanted to get my facts straight. thanks :-) draco382 From editor at texas.net Sun Mar 9 23:16:53 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 17:16:53 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Snape A Cockroach? References: Message-ID: <001401c2e692$9c66ed40$ea04a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53526 The wolf cub (PetitLapinGris) said: > I think I have something here that hasn't been noticed before. In > an interview, > JKR said that she wouldn't like to turned into a cockroach. Well, you know, who would? I'm not too on the ball at the moment, so I can't tell you how this interview meshed with the release of GoF, but she may well have simply been tossing out a clue that insects are included in the realm of possible alternate forms--a handy clue if it preceded GoF. > And in PoA when Lupin is giving the lesson on the boggart, Lupin turn > his moon orb into a cockroach to defeat the boggart. > > My theory is that someone is an animagi (Rita Skeeter turned into a > beetle after all) and this is known by Lupin and by Dumbledore, > considering that Cockroach Cluster is one of the passwords to his > study. "Cockroach cluster" is a candy available at Honeydukes. Dumbledore's passwords have been candy types; Harry tosses this one out as a wild option when other varieties of sweet don't work. I don't think the cockroach part is the main thing; it's the theme of sweets. As to whether it's significant that a wizarding sweet is "cockroach cluster" or not--I'd say not. Roaches are uniformly *ewwww* in both cultures, so I always thought that particular candy was tossed in for ick-value. >Doesn't Dumbledore know everything about his staff? I don't know if I'd make that blanket a statement. I think he's a very wise and experienced leader, but he *is* human. So I don't know that I buy Ominscient!Dumbledore, especially after that "Dumbledore, who did not have a magic eye, did not see this" comment (paraphrased from poor memory) at the end of GoF--which seems almost to direct the reader's attention to the fact that Dumbledore *does* miss things. > If this animagi is known to Lupin and to Dumbledore, I propose that > it is Snape. Singular is animagUS. > Bat-like he may be, but does he not also remind you of a > cockroach somewhat? Greasy, dirty, living in the dungeons? Maybe this > was how he did his spying for Dumbledore. (fights against mental image of struggling cockroach being held down firmly but delicately as Voldemort uses a micro-wand to brand a tiny Dark Mark on one of its legs) Really, I don't think that's what Dumbledore meant by "at great personal risk," the risk of being stepped on. I know this is a rehash, but I do get tired of the hygiene issue. Yes, Snape has greasy hair. BUT absolutely no hygiene problems have been alluded to. Harry's had Snape snarling in his face more than once, and we have not heard a word about bad breath, body odor, or dirt. These are written from Harry's viewpoint and I refuse to believe that he would not pick up on something else to dislike about Snape. So I won't give you the "dirt" part of your equation. As for living in the dungeons, it is in canon that the Potions classroom is in the dungeon, and that Snape's office is off the classroom, but there isn't any evidence as to where any of the teachers' living quarters are. So it isn't *certain* he lives in a dungeon. > Snape said that maybe > Harry got the Marauder's Map straight from manufacturers, thus Snape > may have been in transfiguration with Padfoot, Wormtal, Prongs and > Moony. Padfoot, Wormtail, Prongs, and Moony did *not* learn the animagus spell in class. They learned it clandestinely. It was illegal. Snape does behave oddly in the scene where he calls on Lupin to look at the map. But I personally think this was due to Snape knowing those four names--Padfoot, Wormtail, Prongs, and Moony--from his school days. From Sirius' attitude, I can't imagine that Snape was *not* a target for jokes of one type or another from the four, and they may well have left those nicknames as authors or instigators, to be able to watch him complain or ask, and laugh in their sleeves. Snape would therefore honestly believe that those four names represented a threat, possibly dark magic. I don't think that he knew, when he called Lupin, that Lupin was one of those people. Nor do I believe that animagi were on his mind at the moment, either. > If Snape was in transfiguration with the Marauder's (current > controversy aside), why can't Snape know how to transform? He can. But it won't be because he learned it with them. > And don't you see a cockroach as the reflection of his personality? Quite honestly, no. He doesn't skulk, he does not skitter away, he does not hide. On the contrary, the words, "stepped forward," "took charge," and others indicating proactivity are associated with him a lot. He comes forward with no hesitation to reveal his Dark Mark to Fudge, in front of several people who I'm sure he'd rather not have been in the audience. He does not flee from the threat of a returned Voldemort. So, to turn your question back to you...what, other than the fact that he has greasy hair, inclines you to see him as a cockroach? I don't find that in him. > Lupin stepped on the cockroach, something he's not afraid of, and > he's not afraid of Snape. This is not solid logic. ~Amanda From psychomaverick at hotmail.com Sun Mar 9 22:36:50 2003 From: psychomaverick at hotmail.com (psychodudeneo) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 22:36:50 -0000 Subject: What Defines Dark Magic? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53527 I was just thinking. Dark Magic is always hailed as being evil and wrong. However, who decides what is Dark and what isn't? Curses, one would think, would all be considered Dark Magic. However, many of them are not. There are only three curses we know of that are defined as Dark Magic (the Unforgivable). The rest seem perfectly accepted in everyday use. Can Dark Magics be used for good? Or is it inherently evil? One would think that with one of the overall themes of the books being how you use what you have, I would think that you could use them for good, but that doesn't seem to be the case. There are certainly "good" spells that could be put to evil use if the practitioner has an evil mind, so why not the other way around? Where is the line drawn? Obviously, killing someone with a curse is a bit different than causing carrots to grow out of their head - but think about it. Could a spell/curse that causes one's head to suddenly sprout vegetables be put to a positive use at all? It's just very confusing. Durmstrang has a stigma about teaching it's students Dark Magic. Are they wrong to do this, or are they just letting the young wizards see more options? - Psy From pennylin at swbell.net Mon Mar 10 00:08:05 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 18:08:05 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry & Hermione Siblings? References: Message-ID: <01fd01c2e699$1fc341b0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 53528 Hi -- RE: Harry and Hermione being twins -- um.........but JKR herself has said that Hermione's birthday is Sept 19th and that Harry's birthday is July 31st. In other words, I think the canon directly contradicts this theory. And, if they *were* twins, why would the Potters have separated them? This sounds very far-fetched to me. It is definitely possible that Hermione could be born Sept 1979 and Harry in July 1980..........but I think that's highly unlikely really. It's a push biologically speaking for one thing. But, more importantly, I can't see why they would have hidden Hermione in a muggle home and left their son in the line of Voldemort's fire. Doesn't add up. Sen asked: <<<>>>>>>>> Well, Harry was right in her sight. She'd just told the entire Gryffindor Quidditch team that the match was cancelled. Since Ron detached himself from the crowd and joined Harry, there would have been no need to go looking for him........though McGonagall might well have been planning to do that if Ron *hadn't* joined them. Re: genetics. Yes, it's possible that weird things can happen genetically. James has black hair and unknown color of eyes. Lily has dark red hair and green eyes. Harry got Lily's eyes, but otherwise is a carbon copy of James. Hermione has brown hair and brown eyes. There's just nothing in her appearance to foreshadow a biological relationship to the Potters, and JKR could easily have foreshadowed such a relationship. Imagine........... Hagrid: "Well, you do look the image of your father, Harry, except for the eyes. You got yer mother's eyes. Yer dad had brown eyes..........like Hermione's there." Not hard to drop in a relatively inocuous clue! But, there's just nothing canonically to suggest such relationship, and the fact that children in the Potterverse seem to bear a strong resemblance to their parents suggests that there is no biological relationship between Harry and Hermione or Hermione would have a different appearance (or James' eye color would be suggested at the very least). Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 10 00:11:00 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 00:11:00 -0000 Subject: What Defines Dark Magic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53529 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychodudeneo" wrote: > I was just thinking. Dark Magic is always hailed as being evil and > wrong. However, who decides what is Dark and what isn't? > ...edited... There are only three curses we know of that are > defined as Dark Magic (the Unforgivable). The rest seem perfectly > accepted in everyday use. > > Can Dark Magics be used for good? Or is it inherently evil? > ...edited... > > ...edited... > > Durmstrang has a stigma about teaching it's students Dark Magic. > Are they wrong to do this, or are they just letting the young > wizards see more options? > - Psy bboy_mn: Go back about a month (Feb 18) and look for the thread titled - " Re: Dark Magic and Evil (WAS: Grindelwald and evil)". This will lead you to a very good discussion on the very issues you raised. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/52478 Here is a link to one of my opinions that will take you right to the middle of that thread, and you can move up and down the thread to read other peoples thoughts. Summarize: Light (as in not Dark) curses (and other magic) can be used for evil, and Dark curses could be used for a good purpose, but there will always be something negative, some destructive element involved in it's creation of Dark Magic. The 'Darkness' doesn't come from the use of the magic, it comes from the inherently distructive nature of the creation of the magic. For example, the use of blood, especially the blood of a person, are frequently associated with Dark Magic. We also discovered that there is very little magic in the books that is specifically designated as Dark. Side Note: The three unforgivable curses are not necessarily Dark Magic, without a doubt it is evil magic, but not necessarily Dark. I won't go into everything in detail here, go back to the thread I pointed out and if you still have questions or comments, we will all be more than willing to jump back into the fray again. Just a thought. bboy_mn From karenwickersham at ameritech.net Mon Mar 10 00:19:56 2003 From: karenwickersham at ameritech.net (karywick) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 00:19:56 -0000 Subject: foreshadowings in CoS and in GoF Weasley and Muggle Protection A Act and LV In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53530 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "asandhp" wrote: > > > CoS seems to be 90% foreshadowing, and I'll explain a bit about why I think so toward the end of this post, but for the meantime - the > predictions: > > (large snip)> In CoS we learn: Dobby is in possession of Malfoy secrets, and is > super-loyal to Harry. Very likely conclusion: They'll go sneaking > around Malfoy Manor together to collect clues. Now My thoughts: I think that there's some major foreshadowing in CoS that I haven't seen discussed here. I've searched the engine but it's such a pain as we all know. I think that despite all the joking that Mr Weasley's love of Muggle plugs and all things electronic is such a joke to most magic people there seems to be much more importance to it than Rowling's revealed. It seems like he has been part of raids with other departments (not just his department of Muggle artifacts) -CoS American Hardcover Ed Pg 38. "What a night . . .Nine Raids. Nine! And old Mundungus Fletcher tried to put a hex on me when my back was turned. . . ." Mr Weasly took a long gulp of tea and sighed. "Find anything Dad?" asked Fred eagerly. "All I got were a few shrinking door keys and a biting kettle," yawned Mr. Weasley. "There was some pretty nasty stuff that wasn't my department, though. Mortlake was taken away for questioning about some extremely odd ferrets, but that's the committee on experimental charms, thank goodness. . ." Later in Mr Borgin's shop, you hear Mr. Malfoy is afraid of the ministry's raids and is trying to unload the "items at home that might embarass me if the minstry were to come to call." And then Malfoy says, "There are rumors about a new Muggle Protection Act- no doubt that flea-bitten, Muggle loving fool Arthur Weasley is behind it--"pg 50-51. And at the end Dumbledore says to Mr. Malfoy, "Imagine the effect on Arthur Weasley and his Muggle Protection Act, if his own daughter was discovered attacking and killing muggle borns . . Very fortunate the diary was discovered and Riddle's memory wiped from it, Who knows what the consequences might have been otherwise. . . ." pg 336. Hmm . . so apparently the whole idea of opening of the Chamber of Secrets wasn't necessarily to bring back LV in a memory form or to remove Muggle-borns from Hogwarts but to discredit Weasley and to repeal this Muggle-protection act of his before it gets passed or becomes law. Did anyone else notice this before? I've only been here for about 4 months some I'm sorry if you discussed it years ago and I could't find in in the files. So now we get to GoF where the Muggle Protection Act in now a Law and the Muggle Baiting incident at the Quidditich World Cup. After the incident you hear that Arthur Weasley is at work a lot the following week. Molly Weasley coments that, "You're father hasn't had to go into the office on weekends since the days of You-know-who," she said. "They're working him far too hard." At the conclusion of GoF Molly says, We all know what Fudge is. It's Arthur's fondness of Muggles that has held him back at the ministry for all these years. Fudge thinks he lacks proper wizarding pride." pg 711 Hmmm. . . Is she hinting that Fudge is a DE or a muggle-hater? So what did Arthur Weasley do for the MoM back in the days of terror? What exactly does his position entail now? IS there an underground part of the MoM that is trying to keep track of LV and his supporters by doing raids to find things that might injure or bait muggles they might also find those same people that support Voldemort. What do you all think? Kary From andie at knownet.net Mon Mar 10 00:37:08 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 00:37:08 -0000 Subject: Mars Connection? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53531 Hello all, As I was listening to GoF in my car on the way to work the other day, something occured to me that I was surprised I hadn't thought about before or even read about here. Maybe I just haven't been able to find it in the archives, but anyway... Harry is in Prof. Trelawney's room and he has the dream where he wakes up with his scar burning... Just before this, Trelawney mentions that they need to consider Mars, which is particularly interesting at the time... When I heard her say this, I immediately thought of SS when the Centaurs will not comment on Hagrid's questioning of anything unusual in the forest regarding the unicorns, but would simply reply that Mars was "bright tonight." After each of the mentions of Mars, Harry has an encounter with Voldie... in SS, in the forest when he has possession of Quirrel's body and then later when searching for the stone. In GoF, Harry dreams of Voldemort, and then shortly after battles him face to face during the third task and his rebirth. Does anyone think that there is a connection with Harry/Vodie interactions and the movement/activity of Mars? I'm sorry ahead of time if this has been discussed before... :) grindieloe From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 10 01:49:49 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 17:49:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: REDHEAD ALWAYS Timeline (Was Re: Ron is Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030310014949.2097.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53532 --- draco382 wrote: > Doesn't this > mean that Ron would have to use the time-turner right after > graduation (end of his seventh year at Hogwarts) in order to go back > in time to the point where he can apply to Hogwarts as a young > professor in transfiguration, and then stick around long enough to > defeat Grindlewald, meet Tom Riddle, become headmaster, etc? > > does this mean that Harry DOESNT defeat Voldemort (and perhaps dies > by the hand of V-mort) which means that Ron has to take up the > mission, meaning that he has to go back in time and fulfill his > duties as Dumbledore? This is how I understand the basic timeline of the theory, though of course there can be minor variations according to personal preference. ;) Ron's jump to the past would occur during the course of the books, so before the end of 7th year. The best timing would be if it was towards the end of 7th year, so Ron would be 17 and a legal adult in the wizarding world. Something happens that results in Ron's trip. (Some prefer the idea that it was some sort of accident, possibly occurring as he faces Voldemort and making everyone think he's dead, giving Harry the final push he needs to defeat Voldie. Others like Ron making the choice to go back and try to change things, using a TimeTurner or similar spell.) Ron either meets up with the (soon to be deceased) real Albus Dumbledore or creates the AD identity out of wholecloth. Either way, he's a young man fresh out of Hogwarts with around 130 years to wait before things work around to the point of the timeline we're familiar with. This gives him plenty of time to disappear for years in order to put together his plans or establish the Dumbledore identity. Remember, he'd be 100 years old before the events of the COS flashback, and we don't know how long he'd been at the school by then. Other than his discovery of the uses of dragon's blood and partnership with Flammel, we don't know anything about Dumbledore's life prior to his defeat of Grindelwald and professorship at Hogwarts at age 100. Ron would have plenty of time to go out to the middle of nowhere for "research" and spend his time working out exactly what he'll have to do in order to preserve the timeline. I'd imagine lots of carefully-written journals and Pensieves containing everything he remembers about Dumbledore's life and habits so he'll get it all right. At the end, he scribbles out the 12 uses of dragon's blood he remembers from Potions class and presents it as his discover to excuse all the years he was locked up. *g* Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From heidit at netbox.com Mon Mar 10 00:41:47 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 20:41:47 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Snape A Cockroach? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53533 Wolf Cub posted: > considering that Cockroach Cluster is one of the passwords to his > study. Amanda noted: "Cockroach cluster" is a candy available at Honeydukes. Further to this, "cockroach cluster" is one of the elements in jkr's books that comes directly from another source. Cockroach Clusters are "original" to Monty Python from a sketch in the early 70s. That sketch also included Crunchy Frogs (similar to chocolate?) so its possible that she simply homaged two "icky" sweets from a sketch she liked when she was younger. Heidi Tandy Follow me to FictionAlley - Harry Potter fanfics of all shapes, sizes and ships - 7 sickles an ounce http://www.FictionAlley.org From rpquate at earthlink.net Mon Mar 10 02:25:47 2003 From: rpquate at earthlink.net (redandgoldlion) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 02:25:47 -0000 Subject: Mars Connection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53534 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grindieloe" wrote: ...> Harry is in Prof. Trelawney's room and he has the dream where he wakes > up with his scar burning... Just before this, Trelawney mentions that they need > to consider Mars, which is particularly interesting at the time... When I heard > her say this, I immediately thought of SS when the Centaurs will not comment > on Hagrid's questioning of anything unusual in the forest regarding the > unicorns, but would simply reply that Mars was "bright tonight." > > After each of the mentions of Mars, Harry has an encounter with Voldie... in > SS, in the forest when he has possession of Quirrel's body and then later > when searching for the stone. In GoF, Harry dreams of Voldemort, and then > shortly after battles him face to face during the third task and his rebirth. > > Does anyone think that there is a connection with Harry/Vodie interactions > and the movement/activity of Mars?... Me: Hi grindieloe. That's a good point; I wish I had thought of it. I haven't heard it mentioned before, but it probably has been. Anyway, now that you mention it, the two incidences are most likely connected, IMHO. Does anyone think that the appearance of Mars has anything to do with the god Mars. He was the god of war, after all. I'm pretty sure that Mars was named for him for its red color which represented blood, and war and blood make me think of Voldemort. Also, in astrology Mars represents energy and desire. Since DD says tthat Harry's scar hurts when Voldemort is near or feeling particularly angry towards Harry (sorry, I can't remember the direct quote), maybe Mars symbolizes his evil desire to kill Harry? Any more thoughts? ~redandgoldlion~ Don't have time to spell check, sorry... From karenwickersham at ameritech.net Mon Mar 10 02:44:22 2003 From: karenwickersham at ameritech.net (karywick) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 02:44:22 -0000 Subject: Harry & Hermione Siblings? In-Reply-To: <01fd01c2e699$1fc341b0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53535 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Penny Linsenmayer wrote: Penny said: > > RE: Harry and Hermione being twins -- um.........but JKR herself has said that Hermione's birthday is Sept 19th and that Harry's birthday is July 31st. In other words, I think the canon directly contradicts this theory. And, if they *were* twins, why would the Potters have separated them? This sounds very far-fetched to me. > It is definitely possible that Hermione could be born Sept 1979 and Harry in July 1980..........but I think that's highly unlikely really. It's a push biologically speaking for one thing. But, more importantly, I can't see why they would have hidden Hermione in a muggle home and left their son in the line of Voldemort's fire. Doesn't add up. > Hagrid: "Well, you do look the image of your father, Harry, except for the eyes. You got yer mother's eyes. Yer dad had brown eyes..........like Hermione's there." > > Not hard to drop in a relatively inocuous clue! But, there's just nothing canonically to suggest such relationship, and the fact that children in the Potterverse seem to bear a strong resemblance to their parents suggests that there is no biological relationship between Harry and Hermione or Hermione would have a different appearance (or James' eye color would be suggested at the very least). Now Me: Okay I teach biology. So I know that genetically there's no problem with the birth dates being close together, the hair color or texture or the eye colors. As genetics reveals the human's genotype is so complicated; human hair color and eye color is controlled by many genes and they the have a type of inheritance that is both multifactorial and incoplete domininance. That's why in one family there can be brothers and sister that don't resemble each other at all or either of the parents. People have pointed to the Weasleys as an example of how JKR shows family inheritance but in genetics two parents with red hair almost always have red haired kids. Its a special type of a gene that overrides other genes. But that's enough of the genetics lesson. I'm a bit curious why no one has ever mentioned the other thought running through my head. Maybe it's because no one wants to sully James reputation. What about Harry and Hermione as half siblings? Isn't there hints somewhere in canon (besides Snape - which I wouldn't give a lot of credence to considering the biased bitterness of the source) that James was not always the perfect angel? Maybe he fathered Hermione a little before Harry. We don't know how long Lily and James were married before Harried was begat? (Did I use that word in correct tense?) If that happened and Hermione's mother dies she still could have been raised a muggle by being adopted by the Grangers and all the previous ideas would still work. Maybe he was married before too? We know very little of his and Lily's life, don't we? I only consider this because my husband's adopted and we met his birth mother and father last year and his half sisters. Hmm . . .That could add credence to those heir theories if Hermione's dead birth mother was a person related to Ravenclaw. :-) Who's gotta go to bed and teach about Mendel's peas tomorrow- I hate peas, they are so boring instead of people but you've gotta start somewhere. Kary From dorigen at hotmail.com Mon Mar 10 02:46:02 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 02:46:02 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mars Connection? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53536 >Does anyone think that the appearance of Mars has >anything to do with the god Mars. He was the god of war, after all. >I'm pretty sure that Mars was named for him for its red color which >represented blood, and war and blood make me think of Voldemort. >Also, in astrology Mars represents energy and desire. Since DD says >tthat Harry's scar hurts when Voldemort is near or feeling >particularly angry towards Harry (sorry, I can't remember the direct >quote), maybe Mars symbolizes his evil desire to kill Harry? Any more >thoughts? > I don't think it's a connection with the god Mars, specifically, but with what he stands for, which is war. I think the brightness of Mars foretold the beginning of the second Voldemort War. In C. S. Lewis's (now you know where I stand on the apostrophe question) Narnia series, the centaurs are also astrologers, and foretell the future by watching the stars. More than once, they themselves are baffled and unable to tell what it is that the stars are actually foretelling at the time. At other times, they know or suspect what is coming but are reluctant to tell others because they know how dangerous it is to interfere with foreordained events. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Mon Mar 10 02:48:04 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 02:48:04 -0000 Subject: muggle divination / Re: Mars Connection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53537 grindieloe wrote: > Harry is in Prof. Trelawney's room and he has the dream where > he wakes up with his scar burning... Just before this, Trelawney > mentions that they need to consider Mars, which is particularly > interesting at the time... > When I heard her say this, I immediately thought of SS when the > Centaurs will not comment on Hagrid's questioning of anything > unusual in the forest regarding the unicorns, but would simply > reply that Mars was "bright tonight." > After each of the mentions of Mars, Harry has an encounter > with Voldie... in SS, in the forest when he has possession of > Quirrel's body and then later when searching for the stone. In > GoF, Harry dreams of Voldemort, and then shortly after battles him > face to face during the third task and his rebirth. > > Does anyone think that there is a connection with Harry/Vodie >interactions and the movement/activity of Mars? Mars was the god of war (known as Ares to the Greeks), and Mars is the "action" planet. I think you've made a really interesting observation, and it got me thinking about how astrology may effect the HP world. I looked up Mars to see its effects in general and on Harry specifically. I also looked up HRH's sun signs and gave a quick summary of them. (I couldn't find any other characters' specific birthdays.) If you are resistant to astrology, you probably won't care for this at all. But I thought that Hermione's description was chillingly accurate. Harry's is the one that fits the least, and Ron's may support REDHEAD ALWAYS. (Not that I'm implying that astrology can be included in the canon. Mostly I think this is interesting speculation and an attempt to use divination.) (This first part is from astrology.com) > Mars: Planet of Passion: > Mars is the action Planet of the Zodiac. Energy, passion, drive > and determination are all right up Mars's alley. This Planet > commands you to stand up, be noticed and get things done -- sitting > on the sidelines belongs somewhere else in the heavens. Simply put, > Mars speaks to the power and confident expression of the individual. > Ambition and competition are also within Mars's realm. Mars > encourages us to face challenges and to be our best -- or better. > Aggression is part of the plan here, although Mars also values > courage and honor. Assertion and a daring, fearless nature please > this Planet. > It's important to note that Mars's energy can be constructive or > destructive. The God of War in ancient times, Mars could be > brutally violent. While this energy still emanates from the Planet, > it also asks us to harness this force for good. Stamina, ambition > and achievement are all part of Mars' mantra. Here's how Mars specifically effects Harry: > Bestows upon him an ability to express any anger or aggressive > tendencies with tact, charm, and diplomacy. He probably does not > enjoy conflict and may even go out of his way to avoid it. His > flexibility and balanced outlook make him an easy going, > cooperative partner. He desires connections with others, and much > energy is directed towards relationships and friendships. He is > gracious and entertaining, and attracts many, due to his curiosity > and willingness to try anything new. Just for kicks, I looked up some of the characters' (sun) signs: (All of this information comes from _The Only Astrology Book You'll Ever Need_ by Joanna Martine Woolfolk) > Harry: Leo. Leos are open personalities who give wholeheartedly of > themselves to others and live life to the fullest. Excellent > athletes. All leos possess a kingdom, of which the leo is > unquestionably its ruler. Witty, vivacious, a fluent talker, born > entertainer. Great flair for drama and an instinct for getting > attention. Public image is very important. Generous, kind, and > openhearted, leos find it hard to believe ill of others. If > injured, they strike back quickly, but they also forgive easily and > never hold a grudge. Marvelously affectionate and cheerful, with a > genuine joie de vivre. No one could ask for a better friend. If > approached the right way (flattery is the right way), they will do > almost anything, but expect praise and admiration in return. Leos' > egos demand not respect but adoration. [note from me: This one seems to describe Draco better than Harry, don't you think? However -- although leos are known for seeking out and hogging the spotlight, if Harry's other planetary alignments are humble, this could result in a person who continually ends up in the spotlight, like it or not. I don't have the time right now to look up Harry's full chart, but I certainly can do this later if there is any interest.] > Hermione: Virgo: Intelligence is the hallmark of this sign. > Virgos harvest information, assimilate facts, and put what they > learn to practical use. An excellent memory, an analytical mind, > known for crystal-clear thinking, keen ability to probe into human > motivations. Superb logic cuts through muddled thinking. Until > virgos have the facts before them, they are reluctant to make a > decision. Their faith is not in fortune cookies or in weighing- > machine cards, but in facts, and they distrust ideas that don't > stand up to critical appraisal or people who make emotional > judgments. One major fault: not seeing the forest for the trees - > a preoccupation with neatness and precision sometimes limits their > breadth of vision. Tendency to overcomplicate everything. For > every answer there's a series of new questions, making mountains > out of molehills. Shy and reserved nature, it's hard to relax. > Hypercritical, aware of the world's imperfections but resistant of > others' criticism of them. Most likeable trait: > conscientiousness. A virgo's idea of taking it easy would seem > like hard work to most people. These are not day-dreamers, they > are day-doers. > Ron: Pisces. Last astrological sign, many see them as old souls > who have experienced many past lives. Subtle and intuitive, many > are born with the gift of prophecy. Their extraordinary > sensitivity and compassion can be their most vulnerable point - > they are too impressionable to each passing influence, too > susceptible to someone else's hard luck story or plea for help. > Learning to say no is hard. Known as the sign of self-undoing, > they may be the creators of their own downfall. Impractical, > falling prey to overindulgence. Not to imply a lack of backbone. > Capable of great sacrifice and hard work in the service of a cause > or an ideal. Fundamentally unsure of themselves, they prefer to > work alone rather than with people. They have an instinct for > finding what appears to be the easy way out, which is why many > never attain the position in life to which their gifts entitle > them. Capable of high intellectual acheivment, loyal, unselfish, > generous, always ready to help a friend who has fallen on hard > times. Naturally kind, with a deep appreciation for the inner > qualities of others, not concerned with the superficial and with > what others see on the surface. There is no more sensitive, > perceptive friend, nor one more warmhearted, caring, devoted, and > sentimental. Btw, I also looked up the astrological romantic possibilites for HH and HR. Both were doomeed. :( - Nobody's Rib (who, as a taurus, is known for "dependability") From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Mon Mar 10 03:00:07 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 03:00:07 -0000 Subject: REDHEAD ALWAYS Timeline (Was Re: Ron is Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: <20030310014949.2097.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53538 Andrea wrote: > Other than [Dumbledore's] discovery of the uses of dragon's blood > and partnership with Flammel, we don't know anything about > Dumbledore's life prior to his defeat of Grindelwald and > professorship at Hogwarts at age 100. We also don't know how long Dumbledore studied with Flammel. One aspect of this theory, early on, was that Ron, like in the movie Back to the Future, went looking for his "Doc", which would be Dumbledore, and, upon not finding him, somehow realized that *he* was Dumbledore. I like to think that Ron, realizing he needed to acquire more wizarding abilities in order to be Dumbledore, sought out another "Doc" - Flammel. I imagine that a wizard with the alchemical skills to create the sorceror's stone would be very great and wise, and someone who trained under him would learn a great deal about magic. - Nobody's Rib From julia at thequiltbug.com Mon Mar 10 03:22:26 2003 From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 19:22:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: muggle divination / Re: Mars Connection? Message-ID: <20030309192227.6645.h009.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53539 nobody's rib wrote: > Just for kicks, I looked up some of the characters' (sun) signs: Me: This doesn't seem to fit Harry very much. Except for the "excellent athlete" and "if injured, strike back quickly" parts. >I don't have the time right now to look > up Harry's full chart, but I certainly can do this later if there is > any interest. I'd love to see it, if you get a chance! I wonder if it would fit him more. > > Hermione: Virgo: Intelligence is the hallmark of this sign. > > Virgos harvest information, assimilate facts, and put what they > > learn to practical use. That's Hermione, all right. She is Virgo to the core (says a fellow Virgo *grin*) > >Their faith is not in fortune cookies or in weighing- > > machine cards, but in facts, and they distrust ideas that don't > > stand up to critical appraisal or people who make emotional > > judgments. Whoa! That's our Trelawney-is-a-fraud girl! > >Tendency to overcomplicate everything. For > > every answer there's a series of new questions, making mountains > > out of molehills. Shy and reserved nature, it's hard to relax. > > Hypercritical, aware of the world's imperfections but resistant of > > others' criticism of them. Most likeable trait: > > conscientiousness. A virgo's idea of taking it easy would seem > > like hard work to most people. These are not day-dreamers, they > > are day-doers. Very accurate description of Hermione. She is definately hard to relax and hypercritical. > > Ron: Pisces. Last astrological sign, many see them as old souls > > who have experienced many past lives. !! Could be support for REDHEAD ALWAYS? *grin* What is funny is that I remember reading an article where JKR talked about how she thought that Dan Radcliffe was a good Harry, and said the had that "old soul in a child's body" quality that she envisioned in Harry. Interesting that it's in Ron's description. > >Their extraordinary > > sensitivity and compassion can be their most vulnerable point - > > they are too impressionable to each passing influence, Could be the jealous/envious bit? > > Capable of great sacrifice and hard work in the service of a cause > > or an ideal. He did work very hard on Buckbeak's defence the second go-round, plus the chess game sacrifice and standing up with Harry and Hermione in the S. Shack. > > Naturally kind, with a deep appreciation for the inner > > qualities of others, not concerned with the superficial and with > > what others see on the surface. But we don't want to take "trolls" to the Yule Ball, do we? *grin* > > There is no more sensitive, > > perceptive friend, nor one more warmhearted, caring, devoted, and > > sentimental. Yep, Ron can be all those things, when he's not being fourteen. :) > > Btw, I also looked up the astrological romantic possibilites for HH > and HR. Both were doomeed. :( Aw, drat. Then again, I'm a Virgo happily married to a Leo... Calliope (who finds this vastly entertaining) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/ http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Mon Mar 10 03:38:28 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 03:38:28 -0000 Subject: What defines Dark Magic? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53540 Psy wrote: >I was just thinking. Dark Magic is always hailed as being evil and >wrong. However, who decides what is Dark and what isn't? Curses, >one would think, would all be considered Dark Magic. However, many >of them are not. There are only three curses we know of that are >defined as Dark Magic (the Unforgivable). The rest seem perfectly >accepted in everyday use. >Can Dark Magics be used for good? Or is it inherently evil? One >would think that with one of the overall themes of the books being >how you use what you have, I would think that you could use them for >good, but that doesn't seem to be the case. There are >certainly "good" spells that could be put to evil use if the >practitioner has an evil mind, so why not the other way around? >Where is the line drawn? >Obviously, killing someone with a curse is a bit different than >causing carrots to grow out of their head - but think about it. >Could a spell/curse that causes one's head to suddenly sprout >vegetables be put to a positive use at all? It's just very confusing. Well, first of all I'd say that there is no definition, nor a definite boundary between the two. I think that there is `obviously' Dark Magic, `obviously' not-Dark Magic, and lots of spells and potions that fall into a grey area in-between. I explain the difference to myself like it was explained in some fanfics I read (Primer to the Dark Arts, for example). It's basically this ? the Dark Arts are the spells and potions that cannot be undone. Then, the curses that aren't Dark magic would be those that have counter-curses, not-Dark potions would be those that have antidotes. All the silly stuff, like Jelly-Legs or Hair Loss wouldn't be Dark, even though it can't be used for any good purposes. But Dark magic is either completely unblockable or nonreversible. I'd also classify as Dark the kinds of magic that leave a permanent mark on the one they were used on ? like Imperio or Crucio. Even though you can fight Imperio, and patch up after suffering Crucio, you still can't forget what they were like, and, in a way, they affect you even after they stop working. No canon for any of this, of course. The presence of a destructive element in Dark magic, as bboy_mn pointed out, is also important, IMO. >Durmstrang has a stigma about teaching it's students Dark Magic. Are >they wrong to do this, or are they just letting the young wizards see >more options? I don't know. I'd guess that would depend on what kinds of Dark magic they teach. I suppose that doing Dark magic requires a certain technique that's different from the one you use to do non-Dark spells ? a different way to channel your intent, maybe. So, in a way, they are giving young wizards a broader outlook. I suppose that there must be some Dark magic that *can* be used for good purposes ? maybe they teach those there. I don't really believe that they would teach the Unforgivables in Durmstrang. Not that teaching any Dark Arts is necessarily good, of course. I think JKR is unequivocally telling us that the Dark Arts are evil. But, IMO, any thing that is described as such can't really be strictly separated from not-so-evil things. Hope at least some of this makes sense, Maria From urbana at charter.net Mon Mar 10 04:05:33 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 04:05:33 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_There's_Always_a_Slyth=92rin_(filk)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53541 AWWWW thanks :-) Little ole me?? I've only written 3 filks!! LOL But I look to you, Gail and Haggridd for my inspiration (though probably more to Gail because I know a lot more of the songs *she* filks than the ones you and Haggridd filk). However I am thinking of filking some songs from Oklahoma... Anne U (PS yet another great filk, lyricwise - too bad I don't know the melody at all! :-( > There's Always a Slyth'rin > > To the tune of There's Always a Woman, a Sondheim song written > for > Anyone Can Whistle (but not included in the show). It can be found on > any of several Sondheim compilations (it's sung very fast, in a waltz > tempo, with several interludes of spoken verbal ping=pong) > > Dedicated to Anne U. > From pretty_feet51 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 10 04:20:21 2003 From: pretty_feet51 at yahoo.com (Risti) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 04:20:21 -0000 Subject: Trelawny In-Reply-To: <003701c2e659$e963b9e0$b80a570c@pavilion> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53542 > Cathy: I suspect that *true* seers *are* extremely rare, and that their> gift is inate more than learned. I believe that her first *real* prediction> was something that was useful enough that it was worth keeping her around in > case she made another, and that since there is a book for teaching > Divination, she couldn't do a worse job than anyone else would be able to. > I also think keeping her around may have been also another of life's lesson > for the students. There has already been discussion that one of the reasons > that Snape is kept around is that the students need to learn to deal with > people like him in the real world. The same can be said for Trelawny - > there are always people who claim to be more than they really are (for > instance, Lockhart). Some of the students come to realize this, some don't. > In any case, I think it would be much more frightening to have a Divination > teacher who was a true seer who's predictions came true most of the time. > It is just unfortunate for Harry that he's the most logical choice for > Trelawny's death prophicies. I agree with you on some points. I do think that Trelawney's first prediction was big enough to keep her around, but I have a couple of other thoughts for why she might be kept there. Could it be that she's better off in Hogwarts, then roving around on the streets? I mean, she's probably spout off her predictions to every person she met or passed by, and who'd want to take the chance that one of her few correct predictions could be witnessed by a passerby who doesn't even recognize it. I'm also reminded of something from the movie Finding Forrester, which I think could be implied here. There is an English teacher, who as the movie is develops, you find out was an aspiring writer, who never really made it. It was suggested that most English teachers, who are supposed to be teaching their pupils how to write, can't really do it themselves. My point? You don't necessarily have to be good at the practical to spew off the theories. That kind of person may not be the best teacher out there, but it certainly is a common kind. How many science teachers could practice what they teach? Math teachers who could actually prove some of the theories they make their students memorize? Of course, the best teachers are the ones who can, but usually if they can, they don't teach. ~Risti From elfundeb at comcast.net Mon Mar 10 04:46:29 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 23:46:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dursleys' Fears (WAS: Redeeming the Dursleys References: Message-ID: <000f01c2e6c0$04015260$723b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53543 David responded to my argument: > that Vernon's antipathy to magic is more likely to > result from pranks by James and Sirius than from Voldemort's > activities. I think another possibility is that Vernon suffered from > Voldemort's use of magic, or saw suffering inflicted by it, but > assumed that it was James and his friends who were responsible. > Dobby's use of the pudding to frame Harry could foreshadow this. > Well, the DEs are described as *torturing* Muggles, which implies something truly horrific. I tend to believe that had the Dursleys really been tortured or witnessed it, regardless of whether they thought James had done it, they would have been too afraid for their lives not to do what Dumbledore asked, especially since the Privet Drive protections must have extended to them as well. Also, we know the DEs liked random Muggle-torture, but wouldn't the most likely reason for the DEs to select the Dursleys (or Evanses) as targets be to get information from them about the Potters? If that happened, there's no possibility the Dursleys would have thought James was doing the torturing. Even if DEs did torture Vernon, or Petunia, or other Evanses, I still would expect there to be a precedent for them to believe that it was James doing the torturing -- I don't think even Vernon would be ready to believe that it was James unless there was a prior history of some kind, and James doesn't seem like the type of person to issue threats, based on what we know to date. A prior history of practical magical jokes played on Vernon would allow him to jump to the conclusion that it was James. There's also Eric's memory charm theory. If the Dursleys were tortured, I now think it's more likely that they received memory charms than not. This means I should backtrack slightly on my earlier response to Eric, but only somewhat. I believe that memory charms are more completely effective against Muggles, i.e., it takes magical powers to throw off a memory charm, so Vernon would have no residual memory (FBAWTFT says in regard to a Mass Memory Charm performed on a beachful of bathers that spotted a dragon that some of the Muggles "escaped" the charm; they did not overcome it). Thus, the memory charm erases the exposure to magic and therefore doesn't explain the Dursleys' fear; there needs to be some other kind of exposure. > It is of interest that Vernon appears to understand very little of > what magic can do (one reason why it's actually hard to argue that > he's a squib, Weasley relative or no.). For example, when the > letters in PS start to arrive, he blocks the letter box, and Petunia > warns him that's unlikely to work. He cuts her off quite brusquely, > implying her objections indicate a lack of resolve. Quite what this > means about his fears I'm not sure. > He does seem to prefer Muggle solutions to magical problems, doesn't he? Like taking Dudley to the hospital to have the pig's tail removed. I agree that he's the least likely of the Dursleys to discover any magical abilities. I think even Aunt Marge is a more likely candidate, since she was as angry as Harry when the wine glass shattered. Debbie who thought Vernon as the Weasley accountant cousin was a very cleverly conceived idea, regardless of how unlikely Vernon is to be a squib [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pretty_feet51 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 10 05:07:13 2003 From: pretty_feet51 at yahoo.com (Risti) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 05:07:13 -0000 Subject: REDHEAD ALWAYS Timeline (Was Re: Ron is Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53544 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nobodysrib" wrote: > Andrea wrote: > I like to think that Ron, realizing he needed to acquire more > wizarding abilities in order to be Dumbledore, sought out > another "Doc" - Flammel. I imagine that a wizard with the alchemical > skills to create the sorceror's stone would be very great and wise, > and someone who trained under him would learn a great deal about > magic. > > - Nobody's Rib First of all I have to say I find this to be an interesting idea, and if I didn't have a completely different life of Dumbledore FF bunny running through my head, I might be tempted to take it on. In any case, I'd like to propose a different variant. So Ron has accidently found himself back around the 1840's. What if he searched for 'doc', being Dumbledore, and couldn't find him at all? The only other person he knows to have been alive at this point is Flamel. He also knows that Flamel is supposed to know Dumbledore. What if, upon finding Flamel, and explaining the story to him, who surely in his 500 year life has heard some interesting stories already, discovers that there is known wizard named Albus Dumbledore. Could it be that Flamel and Ron *create* the life of Dumbledore? I propose this mainly because I don't like the idea of the original Dumbledore dying off in some way. Surely Flamel, who has created the Elixer of Life, would probably find it only one more step to make a potion to make someone younger. With this, Ron/Albus turns back into an 11 year old, is called up by the magic quill, and attends Hogwarts all over again. Of course he is sorted into Gryffindor, and already having gone through this courseload once, he is able to do much better and learn things alot more thoroughly the second time around. After that he goes on to be Flamel's partner, creating his own Philospher's stone to ensure that he'd still be around when Harry arrives. Otherwise, he just lives life, and gains the wisdom and experience that are bound to come in 150 years of life. That said, the one problem I have with the theory is the seeming continuum of the dragons blood uses. In their first year, the trio learn the uses, presumably as a result of Dumbledore discovering them. For Ron!Dumbledore to later discover them as a result of learning them seems to break some kind of time law in my opinion. I can handle a person who has gone back shaping history to how it is now, but I can't handle discovering something only because you were first taught it. ~Risti From catlady at wicca.net Mon Mar 10 05:20:00 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 05:20:00 -0000 Subject: REDHEAD ALWAYS Timeline (Was Re: Ron is Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53545 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Risti" wrote: > > That said, the one problem I have with the theory is the seeming > continuum of the dragons blood uses. In their first year, the trio > learn the uses, presumably as a result of Dumbledore discovering > them. For Ron!Dumbledore to later discover them as a result of > learning them seems to break some kind of time law in my opinion. > I can handle a person who has gone back shaping history to how it > is now, but I can't handle discovering something only because you > were first taught it. > But that has been the plot of some science fiction novels, making the point that time travel doesn't make sense to our brains. > I propose this mainly because I don't like the idea of > the original Dumbledore dying off in some way. I like the variant in which Ron goes back in time, encounters the real Aberforth Dumbledore and is adopted by the Dumbledore family, possibly being given the name "Albus" by them for some reason -- after an ancestor, or because he was dipped in white paint, whatever. From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 10 06:15:07 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 22:15:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: REDHEAD ALWAYS Timeline (Was Re: Ron is Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030310061507.6800.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53546 --- Risti wrote: > That said, the one problem I have with the theory is the seeming > continuum of the dragons blood uses. In their first year, the trio > learn the uses, presumably as a result of Dumbledore discovering > them. For Ron!Dumbledore to later discover them as a result of > learning them seems to break some kind of time law in my opinion. I > can handle a person who has gone back shaping history to how it is > now, but I can't handle discovering something only because you were > first taught it. Well, the entire theory is something of a time paradox. How does Ron know how to act as AD? Because he saw him. How does he know what happens with Riddle and Voldie? Because Dumbledore told him (or told Harry, who told him). Everything that happens is contingent on the time travel, but that was true of the whole Patronus/Prongs issue back in POA too. I don't see how knowing exactly when to swoop down to save Harry from Quirrelmort because he lived through it once is any worse than knowing of the uses of dragon's blood because he studied it. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From ultimatesen at aol.com Mon Mar 10 03:45:49 2003 From: ultimatesen at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 03:45:49 -0000 Subject: Harry & Hermione Siblings? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53547 nobodysrib: (Also, if there are any Greek, Roman, etc. myths about twins separated for protective reasons, she may be working off of this rather than directly ripping off Lucas.) me: Good theory. Hermione IS a greek name. I wonder if there is a Greek form of Harry maybe? That would be something worth looking into. Hermione = greek/Earth. Ok. Looked for male Greek names that could somehow link to "Harry". Hieronymus and Halirrhothius (son of poisidon). Quite a long shot. Well I tried on that route. Haven't had any luck with the mythological stories either. Anyone else? Calliope: 1-Unless Lupin knew, and that's why he didn't let Hermione fight the boggart in class, for the same reason he didn't let Harry fight it - he thought it would be Voldemort. 2-Especially if there were a prophecy that James Potter's child would defeat Voldemort me: 1-I whole-heartedly believe this also. I've seen it posted on a webpage or two relating to the H/HSibling subject. 2- I believe that could have come from Dumbledore.. OR this could have been the 1st correct prediction Trelawney made? Sen From uncmark at yahoo.com Mon Mar 10 09:49:02 2003 From: uncmark at yahoo.com (Mark D.) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 09:49:02 -0000 Subject: Hermione Aging via Time turner Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53548 I've got a question about Hermione possibly aging at an increased rate 3rd year from use of the time turner. I haven't spent 'way too much' time doing speculative math, but Hermione must have aged extra hours during PoA through her use of the Time Turner, but hoe much? >From the book, I believe she had almost triple classes which would mean she might have aged 26-27 hours for each 24 hour day. I suggest she might have occasionally abused the time turner to get extra sleep and study at the same time. During breaks, I believe Hermione was the only 3rd year Gryffindor girl at Hogwarts and might very well have taken advantage of having a private bedroom to sleep and study at the same time. The result of overuse of the time turner would be that Hermione might now be older than Harry or Ron. Could she have gained an extra 6 months during her third year? This would explain why Hermione seems so much more mature than Harry or Ron. (It also makes it less creepy that Krum at 18 yo is so smitten by Hermione at 15 yo.) From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Mar 10 06:47:08 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 06:47:08 -0000 Subject: Trelawny/Teachers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53549 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Risti" wrote: > > > I agree with you on some points. I do think that Trelawney's first > prediction was big enough to keep her around, but I have a couple of > other thoughts for why she might be kept there. Could it be that > she's better off in Hogwarts, then roving around on the streets? I > mean, she's probably spout off her predictions to every person she > met or passed by, and who'd want to take the chance that one of her > few correct predictions could be witnessed by a passerby who doesn't > even recognize it. Me: Kept in Hogwarts... That's for Hagrid and Snape, I think. But those two are good at the things they teach, but their teaching skill is very questionable. In Hagrid's case it's inexperience and lack of education... Risti: >You don't necessarily have > to be good at the practical to spew off the theories. That kind of > person may not be the best teacher out there, but it certainly is a > common kind. How many science teachers could practice what they > teach? Math teachers who could actually prove some of the theories > they make their students memorize? Of course, the best teachers are > the ones who can, but usually if they can, they don't teach. I guess I was lucky then, having the math teacher like that in school. She definately did know how to prove those theories. Not only that, she also knew how to teach. But yes, to have one who knows practise (and therefore also the theory) is better than just theory... But as I see it, Trelawney is the sort who knows the theory AND some of the practise. She did predict the things about Hermione: She doesn't have the Sight, she can only learn so much from books (Hermione failed her Boggart), she left them for good... And even with true Seers, (And I'm positive Harry's one since the Buckbeak-Flying-Free-in-Crystal-Ball-vision) they may not *always* get visions, maybe not even when they want it, but they do. What ever else dear Trelawney has taught, Harry&Ron can tell a *real* prediction when they see one... Also, Harry's thing to See is dream/Crystal Ball, Trelawney's uncalled trance that just comes. I wonder if Harry would See more of future if he peeked into his Crystal Ball? About teachers who only knew the theory, there's Quirrell who went to get experience in practise, but got possessed and Lockhart who pretended to know practise, believing it himself to somewhat, but to write those books, he DID know the theory at least. Others-- they DO know their area. All seem to be the best expert in their own branch of magic, Hagrid with Safely Dealing with Monsters (if only the course changed name, but Hagrid Cares for them!) - and there *might* be another Care of Magical Creatures teacher about Unicorns & such... Why not separate those into two courses? -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Mar 10 07:44:36 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 07:44:36 -0000 Subject: Why not Dumbledore as Secret Keeper? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53550 Patricia: > What I want to know is why the Potters didn't take up Dumbledore's offer > to be Secret Keeper. Yes, they loved and trusted Sirius completely and > Sirius is a pretty powerful wizard, but he's nowhere near Dumbledore's > level. The only thing I can imagine is that they let their emotional > attachment to Sirius get in the way of their critical judgement. Can > anyone come up with a better explanation? Finwitch(me): As to why James trusted Sirius so much - they were always together as much as we hear from others, as close as Fred&George if not closer. I don't see Fred/George trusting ANYONE more than his twin-brother. If either would take Fidelius Charm to protect wife&child, he'd absolutely insist for his twin-brother as Secret Keeper. And I think that Sirius&James were pre-Hogwarts friends and more. I think it's likely that they lived next-door, visited each other night- wise so often that it was like they were brothers. If they also were both half-orphaned as babies, breast-fed by the same woman, looking at same man as father-figure, though the two didn't share a relationship, only agreed to raise the kids together; James&Sirius doing blood-brother ritual or some such, to largest extent... I see them as being and feeling as _one_. Might even be that they *both* loved Lily evenly much (but they didn't fight; they asked Lily); That Sirius joyed for James' behalf in that; that Sirius as Harry's godfather shared James' fatherhood... That James trusted and *knew* he could trust Sirius as much as himself! And Sirius IS trustworthy- he *would* die rather than betray his friends. He is a canine animal, and feels most strong *loyalty* to his pack, (much like Lupin, who'd feel betraying *friendship* by betraying his only friends: James, Sirius and Peter...) - but the little rat was not loyal. No, I don't think it was feelings over wits; it was confusion. Sirius trying to excess wits (Peter is too stupid and low-magic to be DE- spy, lets make him the Keeper and let everyone think that I am-- so we both can be heroes) over feelings(Remus can't be the spy, not after all that animagi/werewolf-stuff, no way or I'd never betray you, I'd die first), was what *spoiled* it. They trusted their *wits*, not the Secret Keeper! I'm *sure* Trelawney would have predicted failure because of that!!! -- Finwitch From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Mar 10 10:02:52 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 10:02:52 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione Aging via Time turner References: Message-ID: <3E6C62CC.000001.16247@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 53551 Mark D wrote - >From the book, I believe she had almost triple classes which would mean she might have aged 26-27 hours for each 24 hour day. I suggest she might have occasionally abused the time turner to get extra sleep and study at the same time. Me - I don't know I'd call it abusing it so much. I mean when Minerva got her permission to use the Time Turner she must have known that as well as attending three times as many elective classes as the others she would have needed to do three times as much work. So presumably she had limited permission to use it for studying as well as actually being in class. And while she may have had three times as many elective classes she wouldn't have had three times as many classes total. As well as their options the students still have to take Potions, transfiguration, History (I think), Charms etc. For a normal student i would have thought that option classes take up o more than 50% of their timetable - so she'd actually have ad only twice as many classes total if she was taking 3 times as many options. Someone needs to do the maths on this before we all tie ourselves up speculating - but it won't be me :) I think she probably did live 1 or 2 hours every weekday twice, not sure about weekends. Mark D - During breaks, I believe Hermione was the only 3rd year Gryffindor girl at Hogwarts and might very well have taken advantage of having a private bedroom to sleep and study at the same time. Me - Except of course there are at least three female Gryffindor third years - Hermione, Lavender and, uh, whichever twin is a Gryffindor. There's also a fairly convincing piece of maths at the Lexicon showing that from the evidence of how many students faced the boggart in Lupin's class there are probably another two we don't know the names of. Mark D - The result of overuse of the time turner would be that Hermione might now be older than Harry or Ron. Could she have gained an extra 6 months during her third year? This would explain why Hermione seems so much more mature than Harry or Ron. (It also makes it less creepy that Krum at 18 yo is so smitten by Hermione at 15 yo.) Me - I can't even try and work out how much time she'd have gained without working out her class schedule and how long the terms are and everything but for hewr to age 6 months she'd have to be living at least 12 hours extra a day for 12 months unless my maths is totally screwed, so that's not possible. Besides which I subscribe to the Hermione-is-younger-than-everyone-else theory. But I don't know why we need to 'explain' why she's more mature than Harry and ron - apart from the fact that kids don't all mature at the same pace, girls are usually more mature than boys, so Hermione acting in a more mature fashion is just natural. K From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Mon Mar 10 12:44:12 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 12:44:12 -0000 Subject: Hermione Aging via Time turner In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53552 Mark D wrote: > I haven't spent 'way too much' time doing speculative math, but > Hermione must have aged extra hours during PoA through her use of > the Time Turner, but hoe much? > > From the book, I believe she had almost triple classes which would > mean she might have aged 26-27 hours for each 24 hour day. I believe this to be a gross overestimate. I suggest > she might have occasionally abused the time turner to get extra > sleep and study at the same time. Given the strict warnings issued by McGonagall, and Hermione's attitude to rule-breaking in general and misuse of the Time Turner in particular, I think this highly unlikely. I think it probable that she used the TT only to get to lessons and exams when she had to. The fact that she was obviously stressed and tired shows IMO that she was fitting the extra homework into normal time and not getting extra sleep. > The result of overuse of the time turner would be that Hermione > might now be older than Harry or Ron. Could she have gained an extra > 6 months during her third year? This would explain why Hermione > seems so much more mature than Harry or Ron. My estimate is as follows. At the end of POA, Hermione states that dropping Divination and Muggle Studies will allow her to dispense with the Time Turner. So we may assume that she uses it to attend two extra subjects. I would suggest, with about ten subjects altogether for the normal student, that would amount to between one and two hours a day, with the likely estimate well towards the low end of the range. That only applies five days a week, during term time. British school terms amount to under 40 weeks per year: I think the Hogwarts year is slightly shorter than that, but you can check the Lexicon timelines for a better estimate. Putting it together, one or two hours a day, 5 days a week, 40 weeks a year leads to between 200 and 400 hours in the year. That's roughly between eight and seventeen days. Hardly 'way too much math' and hardly any ageing either. > (It also makes it less > creepy that Krum at 18 yo is so smitten by Hermione at 15 yo.) I find it hard to understand why this should be thought creepy. Nobody at Hogwarts seems to mind the age difference, whatever other objections they may have. She may be 14 for most of GOF, of course ;-) . David, noting that Kathryn is the first known (to him) British exponent of the 'Young Hermione' theory From amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 10 13:39:41 2003 From: amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk (amy_marblefeet) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 13:39:41 -0000 Subject: Is Snape A Cockroach? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53553 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "petitlapingris" wrote: > in PoA when Lupin is giving the lesson on the boggart, Lupin turn > his moon orb into a cockroach to defeat the boggart. I'm sorry I don't remember this happening, could someone find the quote for me as my books are about 200 miles away :( . All I remember is Harry seeing the boggart turn into a large silvery orb and then being passed back to Neville who defeats it. > And don't you see a cockroach as the reflection of his personality? Not really as has already been mentioned by Amanda: >He doesn't skulk, he does not skitter away, he does not hide. On the >contrary, the words, "stepped forward," "took charge," and others >indicating proactivity are associated with him a lot. He comes >forward with no hesitation to reveal his Dark Mark to Fudge, in >front of several people who I'm sure he'd rather not have been in >the audience. However the cockroach may be a nod to the fact that Severus: through working for both Voldemort, then as spy for Dumbledor, through the continuing years of Vapor-mort and now hopefully till book seven during Risen-Voldemort: he can survive anything. Amy M From gingerssnap1966 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 10 15:45:22 2003 From: gingerssnap1966 at yahoo.com (gingerssnap1966) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 15:45:22 -0000 Subject: Hermione Aging via Time turner and an owls question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53554 David wrote: > My estimate is as follows. At the end of POA, Hermione states that > dropping Divination and Muggle Studies will allow her to dispense > with the Time Turner. So we may assume that she uses it to attend > two extra subjects. I would suggest, with about ten subjects > altogether for the normal student, that would amount to between one > and two hours a day, with the likely estimate well towards the low > end of the range. Me: I don't really think that she aged at all. She certainly got an extra hour or so of information, but if, for example, Muggle Studies and Transfiguration (just pulling those out of the air-sorry if they don't fit canon) met from 9:00 to 10:00, she would only age one hour, even if she were in both of them at once. Does that make sense? Certainly her body clock would lag as she has done twice as much work in that hour, and even "lived" it twice, so she may *feel* older. Now for my question, and I apologize if this has been brought up before: As David stated above, dropping Muggle Studies and Divination will allow her to do it without a time turner. This brings her down to ten subjects. Required: Transfiguration, Herbology, DADA, Potions, Charms, History of Magic, and Astronomy. Elective: Ancient Runes, Arithmancy, and Care of Magical Creatures. If I understand the OWLs correctly, one can get an OWL for each subject. This would mean that she would be able to get 10 OWLs at the most. How did Percy (in CoS) and Barty Jr. (mentioned in GoF) manage to get 12 OWLs? (I think it is mentioned that Bill did too, but I can't find it offhand.) Were they given time-turners or did they have to really juggle their schedules, or am I just understanding OWLs wrong? I vaguely remember a discussion on OWLs and NEWTs in relation to A's and O's, and I understood it as one per subject. Please correct me if I am wrong (offline is fine if this has been overdone). Thanks, Ginger From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 10 17:59:28 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 17:59:28 -0000 Subject: Hermione Aging via Time turner In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53555 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mark D." wrote: > I've got a question about Hermione possibly aging at an increased > rate 3rd year from use of the time turner. > > I haven't spent 'way too much' time doing speculative math, but > Hermione must have aged extra hours during PoA through her use of > the Time Turner, but how much? > > ...edited... > > Mark D. bboy_mn: First, I'm not sure what the real question is. Are you asking about the effect of time travel, are you asking if Hermione might have cheated a bit while having access to the time turner, or both ... or something else altogether? Getting into the question of aging throws us back into the complex confusing paradoxical world of time travel, and it's many ponderable, but mostly unresolvable mysteries. One way to look at time travel- Let's use the example of Harry and Hermione going back 3 hours in time to save Sirius. One could say that the went forward 3 hours in time (+3) then went back 3 hours in time (-3) then went forward living that 3 hours again (+3), yeilding the formula (+3-3+3=3). But that brings us to the question, 'is the -3 hours really valid?'. It looks good in the simple formula I outlined, but it implies that they grew 3 hours younger when they traveled back. Which brings up the larger question, if you are 20 years old and go back in time 19 years, do you arrive in that new time as a 1 year old infant, or do you appear as your 20 year old self? For purposes of movies and books, it really spoils the story if you arrive in the past having decreased in age. Pretty hard for a 1 year old infant effectively correct whatever they went back to correct. This brings us to the 'Quantum Leap' (TV show) theory of time travel, that you can only travel within the span of your lifetime. That is, if you are 60 years old, then you have a 60 year window of time in which you can travel. Made for a great TV show, but in the TV show, the guy didn't show negative aging. We could make some serious speculative science out of the possibility, but it wouldn't make for very good stories and movies. Now the alternate- Let's look at this from a perspective of metabolism; the constant running of the human engine. If Harry and Hermione did not de-age, or experience negative biological time when they went back in time, then they have 3 hours more experience than the calander and clock would indicate. Their biological engines have 3 hours more wear and tear than the accumulated linear time since their birth. That would imply that Herione did age at an accelerated rate while she used the time tuner. If we assume an additional 4 hours per day, 5 days a week for 10 months, that's 33 days. At the end of the school year, using these numbers, Hermione's biological engine had an additional month of wear and tear. Hermione 'cheats'- Let's say Herione gets up at 8AM on Tuesday then at Midnight she goes to bed and sleeps until 8AM Wednesday, then uses the time turner to go back and study for the 8 hours between 11:59pm Tuesday night and 8AM Wednesday morning then carries on with her day. The problem is she won't go to bed again until Midnight Wednesday night which means she will have been up/awake for 24 hours. Let's say she does the opposite, stays up all night studying and then goes back in time and sleeps until Wednesday morning. That fixes Wednesday, she begins it with a full nights sleep, but it also means that she has been awake from 8AM Monday until 8AM Tuesday when she went back in time to get some sleep. I don't think her late night studying would have been very effective after having been awake for 24 hours. It's a losing proposition no matter how you look at it. She CAN cheat but one way or another, it's herself that is being cheated. Hermione's day- Using my example of 4 extra hours per day, that means from a biological engine perspective, Hermione's days are 28 hours long. To understand this you have to follow Hermione through time in a linear fashon and forget about two of her existing at the same time. Hermione relative to herself doesn't experience parallel time, she experiences linear time; one hour of Charms (9am-10am) followed by another hour of Arithmacy (9am-10am). From her perspective and from the perspective of wear and tear on her biological engine, those are 2 consecutive hours in time. No wonder Hermione was a wreck. Probably didn't answer your questions, but I had fun thinking about it. bboy_mn From kkearney at students.miami.edu Mon Mar 10 18:05:06 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 18:05:06 -0000 Subject: OWLS question (was Re: Hermione Aging via Time turner and an owls question) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53556 Ginger asked: > If I understand the OWLs correctly, one can get an OWL for each > subject. This would mean that she would be able to get 10 OWLs at > the most. How did Percy (in CoS) and Barty Jr. (mentioned in GoF) > manage to get 12 OWLs? (I think it is mentioned that Bill did too, > but I can't find it offhand.) Were they given time-turners or did > they have to really juggle their schedules, or am I just > understanding OWLs wrong? I don't believe one has to be currently taking a class in order to take an OWL. So if Percy and Barty, Jr. had taken different electives each year, they could easily test in all these subjects, not just those they were taking their fifth year. Of course, this is purely hypothetical because I'm not familiar with whatever the British equivalent to OWLS is. Please correct me if I'm wrong. -Corinth, who thinks perhaps the US should look into tests such as these and eliminate horrid pointless standardized test like Florida's FCAT. From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Mar 10 13:06:19 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 13:06:19 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione Aging via Time turner References: Message-ID: <3E6C8DCB.000001.48147@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 53557 Mark D originally said - > (It also makes it less > creepy that Krum at 18 yo is so smitten by Hermione at 15 yo.) Then David argued - I find it hard to understand why this should be thought creepy. Nobody at Hogwarts seems to mind the age difference, whatever other objections they may have. She may be 14 for most of GOF, of course ;-) . Me - The argument I've heard for this goes as follows. Viktor is 18. All 18 year old boys are obsessed with sex. Ergo Viktor is obsessed with sex and in order to be obsessed with hermione must be sleeping with her. He's an adult, she's a child. Please tell me someone out there has a more realistic explanation for why it s creepy, because 1 he isn't an adult, he's still at school, therefore a child. 2 I don't know what the experiences of most of the proponents of this theory are but at my school a 17-8 year old dating someone his own age would have stood out like a sore thumb, they all dated 14-6 year olds (because as i pointed out earlier girls mature earlier and most 15 year old girls are more likely to strangle the boys in their year than date them) and finally 3 Unless she re-appropriated that time turner, Harry's cloak and the marauder s Map I don't think they were having sex anyway. Between having to sneak off away from her friends/housemates, trying to find somewhere private and his preoccupation with the challenges of the Tournament I don't imagine it was really possible. I've heard it argued that they must have been having sex because otherwise she wouldn't have been so important to him so fast - which I personally think is gibberish. She may have been his first girlfriend (training to play Quidditch professionally probably really limits your social life) and as such you'd expect him to have such feelings. David then added - David, noting that Kathryn is the first known (to him) British exponent of the 'Young Hermione' theory Me - Really? Hmm I guess that's understandable since British schools tend to be very rigid about what year you're in. If you're 11 before the first of September you're in that school year. I've even seen it split twins up (one born one side of midnight the other born a few hours later, and the next day) As such a younger student at most schools in this country would be unheard of - it is more likely in public schools however, so between that and the fact it's a magic school it doesn't seem that unlikely - if you can accept that the school students are selected on the basis of their names being recorded by a magic quill (that may or may not cope with name changes and immigration) then it bumping Hermione up a year because of her abilities isn't that hard to believe. She's either one of the oldest or one of the youngest in her year and I think her behaviour is that of someone younger than the others. I think the way she is always trying to show her intelligence is her trying to prove to everyone (including herself) that she belongs there - it strikes me as a symptom of an underlying insecurity - probably not helped by her being a muggleborn. K From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Mon Mar 10 15:51:00 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea Moggach) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 10:51:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Snape A Cockroach? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030310155100.1680.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53558 amy_marblefeet wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "petitlapingris" wrote: > in PoA when Lupin is giving the lesson on the boggart, Lupin turn > his moon orb into a cockroach to defeat the boggart. I'm sorry I don't remember this happening, could someone find the quote for me as my books are about 200 miles away :( . All I remember is Harry seeing the boggart turn into a large silvery orb and then being passed back to Neville who defeats it. Me: Here's your quote.... Bloomsbury - page 105 "Then they saw a silvery-white orb hanging in the air in front of Lupin, who said "Riddikulus!" almost lazily. CRACK "Foward Neville, and finish him off! said Lupin, as the Boggart landed on the floor as a cockroach. CRACK! Snape was back. This time Neville charged forward looking determined. "Riddikulus!" he shouted, and they had a split second's view of Snape in his lacy dress before Neville let out a great "Ha!" of laughter, and the Boggart exploded, burst into a thousand tiny wisps of smoke, and was gone. " Lea :) --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Mar 10 16:05:47 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 16:05:47 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione Aging via Time turner and an owls question References: Message-ID: <3E6CB7DB.00000B.24883@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 53559 Ginger wrote - This brings her down to ten subjects. Required: Transfiguration, Herbology, DADA, Potions, Charms, History of Magic, and Astronomy. Elective: Ancient Runes, Arithmancy, and Care of Magical Creatures. If I understand the OWLs correctly, one can get an OWL for each subject. This would mean that she would be able to get 10 OWLs at the most. How did Percy (in CoS) and Barty Jr. (mentioned in GoF) manage to get 12 OWLs? (I think it is mentioned that Bill did too, but I can't find it offhand.) Were they given time-turners or did they have to really juggle their schedules, or am I just understanding OWLs wrong? Me - Maybe you can do more than one exam for some of the subjects. For example I studied 'science' at school for GCSE but got two grades at the end of the course, or with maths you can do say statistics or algebra or something. Maybe arithmancy can be split. Or since I assume you drop some subjects before you do your newts maybe they let you sit exams in Transfiguration and Advanced transfiguration, with the advanced exam only being sat by those students who will carry on to take NEWT level Transfiguration. Or perhaps there are some basic exams that you don't have classes in because they're taught across the syllabus like say - Magical Theory? K From pisk at inuyasha.nu Mon Mar 10 17:23:19 2003 From: pisk at inuyasha.nu (piskmiffo) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 17:23:19 -0000 Subject: (FILK) Mr Seeker Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53560 Mr Seeker - to the famous Mr Sandman by Chordettes Sung by Oliver Wood somewhere before the end of book 3. The background chorus (all the win win win) is by the rest of the team, except for poor Harry. [change every "bum" to "win"] Mr Seeker Bring us the snitch (win win win win) Make us the champions of the quidditch pitch (win win win win) Get us the cup with your splendid flying. Get us the quidditch cup or die while trying! Seeker We want the prize (win win win win) So take your broomstick and scan the skies (win win win win) Please turn on your magic switch Mr seeker, bring us the snitch! [change every "bum" to "win"] Mr seeker Bring us the snitch. Make us the champions of the quidditch pitch! Look out for bludgers, they aren't nifty. Let's hope our chasers score 300-50! Seeker We want the prize So take your broomstick and scan the skies Please turn on your magic switch Mr seeker, bring us the snitch! [change every "bum" to "win"] Mr Seeker Harry: yeeees? Bring us the snitch Chase it wherever it goes until your nose starts to bleed Chase it wherever it goes, until you catch it! When you get close enough make sure to snatch it! Mr Seeker A cup to hold Would be so peachy before I'm too old So please turn on your magic switch Mr Seeker bring us, Please please please Mr seeker! Bring us theeee snitch! Sorry if there's any incorrect English in it, my native tongue is Swedish. /pisk From manawydan at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 10 18:32:44 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 18:32:44 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dark Magic References: <1047253444.3072.13394.m13@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000a01c2e733$71baa180$bb4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 53561 Psy wrote: >I was just thinking. Dark Magic is always hailed as being evil and >wrong. However, who decides what is Dark and what isn't? Curses, >one would think, would all be considered Dark Magic. However, many >of them are not. There are only three curses we know of that are Possibly the answer to that is "the Ministry decides". As those of us who've tried spellwork IRL know well, there can be all sorts of unforeseen consequences, and it's not as simple as saying that the type of spell is "inherently evil" (because it might bring about unintended good) or that the converse is true (because it might bring about unintended bad). Frankly I can't see any positive purpose in the cruciatus, but the imperius could certainly be used for defensive as well as hostile purposes (suppose a wizard was being attacked by a group of muggles, for example), and we know that the AK was used by both sides during Voldemort's outbreak. >Durmstrang has a stigma about teaching it's students Dark Magic. Are >they wrong to do this, or are they just letting the young wizards see >more options? Don't think they're wrong, provided it's taught with the right ethical context. Maybe the Ministry in whatever country Drumstrang lies (Samiland perhaps, from the climate) is less strict than the one over here. Or maybe Karkaroff and his predecessors have more autonomy to decide for themselves what to teach. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From grace701 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 10 18:47:42 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 18:47:42 -0000 Subject: Harry's dreams/Petunia/Draco's Wand/Hagrid & Crookshanks=Clues Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53562 I am re-reading SS and as I was reading (only up to chapter 5), a few sentences/clues caught my eyes: >P.37 ~ The Sorceror's Stone Ch. 2 American edition Paperback: "When he has been younger, Harry had dreamed and dreamed of some unknown relation coming to take him away, but it never happened; The Dursleys were his only family." Question/Clue: Being that the dreams Harry has had have either come true or given him insight on his past. It wouldn't be out of the ordinary to assume that this is a clue being that Harry has a guardian, Sirius, who is not a blood relative, but who is still considered family enough to be a Godfather. Could it be that Sirius will be cleared up in perhaps book 5 and come to take Harry away from the Dursleys. From what I understood in Debbie's post on Dursley's Fears, it seems that Vernon maybe afraid of magic because Sirius and James played tricks on him. It would be great to see the look on Vernon's face to see Sirius, again. This can be debunked though: Why recognize Sirius's name in the news? Did he know if Sirius's last name? Basically, will Sirius, or some other "unknown relative" take Harry away? Who was Harry's godmother? (Mrs. Weasley!;)) >P.49 - Vernon is nailing down any cracks that the doors may have so that the letters won't be delivered and Petunia says: "I'm not sure that'll work, Vernon." Question/Clue: How does she know this? She may not sound positive, but why say that? P.96 - Harry meets Draco for the first time at Madam Malkin's Robes for all Occasions shop. Draco says: "My father's next door buying my books and my mother's up the street looking at wands..." he continues to talk of broomsticks. Question/Clue: Did he mean his mother was buying him his wand? Why would she be looking at wands without him being there? It doesn't make any sense to me. Of course, it is more than likely he went afterwards to buy it, but why is she looking at it. What's the point in that? P. 101 - Hagrid on getting Harry an animal as his birthday present: "...Not a toad, toads went outta fashion years ago, yeh'd be laughed at - an' I don't like cats, they make me sneeze. ..." Question/Clue: Has Hagrid ever been around Crookshanks? And if so, has he sneezed? This could be because Crookshanks is half Kneazle, but he (it is a he right?) is still half cat! Greicy, who is enjoying an unofficial book called: Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter. It's good so far so I shall start recommending it! =) From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 10 19:18:55 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 19:18:55 -0000 Subject: Harry's dreams/Petunia/Draco's Wand/Hagrid & Crookshanks=Clues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53563 Grace wrote: > P.37 ~ The Sorceror's Stone Ch. 2 American edition Paperback: > "When he has been younger, Harry had dreamed and dreamed of some > unknown relation coming to take him away, but it never happened; > The Dursleys were his only family." > Question/Clue: Could it be that Sirius will be cleared up > in perhaps book 5 and come to take Harry away from the Dursleys. Now me: I saw that dream as a foreshadowing of Harry being taken by Hagrid to Hogwarts (unintended alliteration there!). While Hagrid is not a relation of Harry's (that we know of, anyway!), it still served the same purpose of rescuing Harry from a place he detests and taking him to a place he loves (most of the time, that is). Unfortunately for Harry, I don't see him being able to leave the Dursleys for good unless Voldemort is vanquished, since the ancient magic Dumbledore invoked to protect Harry while he's at the Dursleys is so very effective. Grace again: > P.49 - Vernon is nailing down any cracks that the doors may have so > that the letters won't be delivered and Petunia says: > "I'm not sure that'll work, Vernon." > > Question/Clue: How does she know this? She may not sound > positive, but why say that? Me again: Petunia probably knows a bit about what magic can do since she likely had first-hand experience in observing her sister Lily (she does reference Lily bringing home frog spawn and changing teacups into rats). Vernon probably would have also been able to figure out that it wasn't going to work if he wasn't so worked up at the time. Grace again: > P.96 - Harry meets Draco for the first time at Madam Malkin's Robes > for all Occasions shop. Draco says: "My father's next door buying > my books and my mother's up the street looking at wands..." he > continues to talk of broomsticks. > > Question/Clue: Did he mean his mother was buying him his wand? > Why would she be looking at wands without him being there? Me again: This is a bit of a mystery, since the "wand chooses the wizard." Perhaps she just told him that so she could sneak away for a quick pick-me-up at the Leaky Cauldron ;) Grace again: > P. 101 - Hagrid on getting Harry an animal as his birthday present: > "...Not a toad, toads went outta fashion years ago, yeh'd be > laughed at - an' I don't like cats, they make me sneeze. ..." > > Question/Clue: Has Hagrid ever been around Crookshanks? And if > so, has he sneezed? This could be because Crookshanks is half > Kneazle, but he (it is a he right?) is still half cat! Me again: Off the top of my head, I can't recall a time when Hagrid has been around Crookshanks. ~Phyllis From seventhsqueal at yahoo.com Mon Mar 10 19:17:17 2003 From: seventhsqueal at yahoo.com (SeventhSqueal) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 11:17:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What motivated Dobby in CoS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030310191717.66206.qmail@web10702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53564 Quote from 7thSqueal post about Dobby's motivation. > > Three: Add your idea here. Finwitch offers a third alternative: I myself see Dobby acting very much as he were Harry Potter's house-elf. Dobby has NOT heard of Harry being decent."Dobby has heard of your greatness, sir, but nothing of your goodness". Also, it was *obvious* to me that Dobby was NOT acting under Malfoy's orders.A house-elf is supposed to serve one family and one house for ever, but somehow Dobby's more bound to Harry than the Malfoys! Dobby chooses to use his freedom to serve Harry in any way Harry permits him to and obeys Harry... We don't know how a house-elf becomes bound. In Winky's case, it was hereditary, but with Dobby? It seems like Dobby's bound to Harry... and that's what makes him glad being free- he *can* serve his precious Harry Potter even though Harry Potter is too young to have a house... Was Dobby *born* in the Potter house that was destroyed and thus bound to Harry, even though he was forcibly separated from Harry until he hears Harry's in danger? 7thSqueal responds: This is an excellent third option for what motivates Dobby. It also explains Dobby's split personality type behavior for a house-elf. Dobby does tell Harry directly to his face that his Masters don't know he is there, however, in the following chapter, Fred and George give Harry the background info on house-elves and give him the opinion that Dobby's information sounds fishy to them. They claim that house-elves come with old manors, but this is a very minor drawback and does not necessarily discount the theory that Dobby was originally James'(or another Potter's) house elf. House elves are bound to serve their masters. The only thing obvious about who Dobby is serving is that it causes him the distress of contradiction, like someone who is trying to serve more than one master, and he is operating under conflicting orders or allegiances. (Geek parallel: Hal 9000) This could be because of the conflicting orders within the Malfoy household, or conflicting allegiances between past and present owner. Which leads us to the next question. Would the Malfoy's ever knowingly accept the Potter's old house-elf? ===== ~SeventhSqueal There's no earthly way of knowing / Which direction we are going / There's no knowing where we're rowing / Or which way the river's flowing / Is it raining? / Is it snowing? / Is a hurricane a-blowing? / Not a speck of light is showing / So the danger must be growing / Are the fires of hell a-glowing? / Is the grisly reaper mowing? / Yes, the danger must be growing / 'Cause the rowers keep on rowing / And they're certainly not showing / Any signs that they are slowing! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From jodel at aol.com Mon Mar 10 19:43:19 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 14:43:19 EST Subject: What Defines Dark Magic? Message-ID: <69.35da5bfc.2b9e44d7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53565 Psy asks us: >>Can Dark Magics be used for good? Or is it inherently evil? One would think that with one of the overall themes of the books being how you use what you have, I would think that you could use them for good, but that doesn't seem to be the case. There are certainly "good" spells that could be put to evil use if the practitioner has an evil mind, so why not the other way around? Where is the line drawn? << I have a MOPPeT that Dark and Light magic are two different procedures by which magical energy may be channeled. The distinction between the two only came about after Light magic was developed from its Dark magic roots. ("Dark" magic was refered to by that name afterwards in association with such things as the "Dark Ages".) The problem with Dark magic is that it uses the user and eats away at his personality over long, or cumulative, exposures. (Note: this is not specifically a corruption into evil - although that particular form of the result has been amply documented.) This deterioration progresses in the form of an erosion of the affected wizard's basic "humanity". Ultimately he is unable to relate to other humans as members of his own species and cannot recognize that they have any more existence beyond that of impediments to be brushed asside. He sees them as "creatures" rather than as "beings". Light magic is a much safer procedure to use, since it does not directly damage the user, when properly deployed. But Light magic is limited by the level of magical "conductivity" the wizard channeling it is born with, while under the older, Dark, process any level of conductivity at all allows the user to access to the full Power of Magic itself. Channeling this much magic is likely to have fatal consequences, but in extreme circumstances, such a sacrifice may be considered acceptable. Dark magic is exceedingly perilous, but it is not inherently evil. And, after all, Light magic was developed from it, and it continues to be a source for continuing modern-day magical research. As such it cannot be completely eliminated. But its practice must be rigorously controled, and the Ministry can certainly refuse to sanction teaching its methods to the young. That they are openly taught at Durmstrang illustrates that this is not a universally held opinion. It also offers a strong arguement in favor of the view that the Dark Arts remain a recognized and valuable branch of Magical study. I am working on a series of essays on my own views of a possible "History of Magic" in the Poterverse ultimately to be posted on my own site. But if people wish I could run it through here as well (I don't *think* it would be too long to be posted in e-mail, but it might need to be split into sections.) Despite the fact that my own theories on this may seem to be comming out of left field, I haven't yet turned up anything in canon which absolutely contradicts it. OotP may throw it all into a cocked hat, though. But those are the risks one takes. -JOdel From urbana at charter.net Mon Mar 10 19:45:10 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 19:45:10 -0000 Subject: FILK: Ode to Mary Sue Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53566 To the tune of Peggy Sue by Buddy Holly Dedicated to CMC, Gail B, and Haggridd, and to all the Mary Sues who transfer to Hogwarts on fictionalley.org, fanfiction.net etc. If you knew Mary Sue Like fan fiction authors do You'd love her, that Mary Su-u-ue She's an O.C. Hogwarts upstart, Mary Sue Beautiful through and through Smarter than Hermione too That's Mary, our Mary Su-u-ue All the teenage wizards want to snog her too Mary Sue, Mary Sue Pretty, witty, so big-city Mary Sue Now tell me, what's a fan to do-oo-ooh? We must fall in love with little Mary Sue Yes it's true, Harry too Wants to snog our Mary Sue Good-bye Cho, hi Mary Su-u-ue Just a bigger bust and she'd be perfect too Mary Sue, Mary Sue Pretty, witty, so big-city Mary Sue All Hogwarts bows down to yoo-oo-ou How did we get by without you, Mary Sue? We can't save the day without you, Mary Sue! **** Anne U (not a Mary Sue) From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Mon Mar 10 13:17:17 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 13:17:17 -0000 Subject: Harry and Hermione being siblings... In-Reply-To: <20030309141359.17964.h014.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53567 Hello all, Fred here;(from message 53520) Well, I have stated in the past that I believe H/H are brother & sister.... (snip) But I feel I have a differing of opinion than others in here. Not only do I believe they are brother & sister, but I think they were born on the same day. That's right, I think they are twins. Maybe not identical twins, but twins all the same. =================================================================== Calliope wrote (message 53523); Now that "would" be interesting, wouldn't it? So what that they don't have the same birthday. One or the other of their birthdates could be fudged (I say Hermione's.) I think, though, that if they were twins, Hermione would have been hidden at birth, not at the time of Voldemort's defeat. Especially if there were a prophecy that James Potter's child would defeat Voldemort...they'd want them separated as much as possible. =================================================================== Fred again; I agree with you with them being separated at birth, it would make sence. If Volie was to hear about the "prediction" of "J & L Potters 'child' will stop/kill" him, and seeing he would not know of their being two children born, even if one is killed, maybe the unknown second would still compleat the prediction. =================================================================== Calliope again; If she weren't "hidden" until the Potters died, then Sirius, Lupin, etc would know about her, and they would have dropped *some* kind of hint by now. Unless Lupin knew, and that's why he didn't let Hermione fight the boggart in class, for the same reason he didn't let Harry fight it - he thought it would be Voldemort. =================================================================== Fred once more; This part is a little more tricky IMO. One the one hand I would think she was "hidden" as quickly as possible, even if she was, James and Lily might still tell their closest friends so the could keep an eye out on each, just in case. But then, they might think they were safe because of the charm in place, but still made some arrangments to have them seperated if anything bad did happen. And this would also explain why the birthdays are diferant. Because if you are looking for twins, why would you think they were born months apart? In other words, by changing the birthdates, it makes it even harder to find them. =================================================================== Penny Linsenmayer writes (Message 53528); Hermione's birthday is Sept 19th and that Harry's birthday is July 31st. In other words, I think the canon directly contradicts this theory. And, if they *were* twins, why would the Potters have separated them? This sounds very far-fetched to me..... ..(snip)> Re: genetics. Yes, it's possible that weird things can happen genetically. James has black hair and unknown color of eyes. Lily has dark red hair and green eyes. Harry got Lily's eyes, but otherwise is a carbon copy of James. Hermione has brown hair and brown eyes. There's just nothing in her appearance to foreshadow a biological relationship to the Potters... ===================================================================== Fred again; As I said above, the birthdays could have easily been changed. As a matter of fact, it would only make sence to change one of them. This way, if you are looking for twins born on July 31 and only find one child, who would think of looking for another child born Sept. 19? And as for "There's just nothing in her appearance to foreshadow a biological relationship to the Potters...", my mother has blond hair & blue yes, my father, brown hair, brown eyes. Me, I have reddish blond hair and green/hazel eyes (they change colors from blue, green to light brown, or a combination of all, according to my mood). Does this mean I need to do some DNA test? Not everyone looks like a mirror image of their families. But Hermione, IMO, does look like Harrt, at least some, both have dark hair and both have problems with hair management. ================================================================== karywick wrote (Message 53535) Okay I teach biology. So I know that genetically there's no problem with the birth dates being close together, the hair color or texture or the eye colors....(snip)...human hair color and eye color is controlled by many genes and they the have a type of inheritance that is both multifactorial and incoplete domininance. I'm a bit curious why no one has ever mentioned the other thought running through my head. Maybe it's because no one wants to sully James reputation. What about Harry and Hermione as half siblings? Isn't there hints somewhere in canon (besides Snape - which I wouldn't give a lot of credence to considering the biased bitterness of the source) that James was not always the perfect angel? Maybe he fathered Hermione a little before Harry. We don't know how long Lily and James were married before Harried was begat? ==================================================================== Fred Once more; Hummm, Half siblings..... James fathers 2 children with 2 differant women.... It is truly prossible and it could/would explain the birthday differance (although I still think they are twins, but I might be wrong). If, say James had a bachelor party, or went to one of someone elses, and things get out of hand, and the consiquence is a baby born out of wed lock. Or any number of other reasons. Lots of things can happen, and just look at how many theorize about what each and every person "might" do, and who will JKR introduce next, ect. But OH BOY, is it fun!!!!!!!!! Fred Waldrop From happybean98 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 10 18:46:12 2003 From: happybean98 at yahoo.com (happybean98) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 18:46:12 -0000 Subject: JKR Confesses! She is Dudley! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53568 I came across an article written by JKR in InsideMS magazine. www.nationalmssociety.org/IMSSu02-MyMother.asp In the article, she writes, "A year later my mother gave birth to a fat, blonde baby girl, and two years after that had a skinny, black-haired baby girl- my sister, Di." This is definitely a sign that Dudley will be redeemed in the end. This also explains why JKR said she loved Dudley as a character in one of the interviews. We also have the hint that the Dursleys will play an unexpected role in the future. What if Dudley has been a wizard all along? Maybe Uncle Vernon tore up his letter from Hogwarts, and Dudley was just too dim to care. This also explains one reason why Di encouraged JKR to publish the books. I'm sure she enjoyed the humorous reconstructions of their own sibling rivalry. Since her sister Di is a lawyer, maybe that supports theories that Harry will become an Auror. A lawyer would be the closest you could get to an Auror in the muggle world. Kathleen From gartzen at e-mail.dk Sun Mar 9 11:52:04 2003 From: gartzen at e-mail.dk (gartzen88) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 11:52:04 -0000 Subject: R. J. Lupin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53569 Hi... This is the first time I post a message in the group. On the Hogwarts-express in PA, Hermione read aloud the label on Lupin's trunk. It says "R. J. Lupin." Do you have an idea what does the "J" stands for? - GartZen PS - I know my english is bad.... It's because I am danish and only 15 years old... From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 10 19:54:06 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 19:54:06 -0000 Subject: an OWLS question In-Reply-To: <3E6CB7DB.00000B.24883@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53570 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > > > Ginger wrote - > This brings her down to ten subjects. Required: Transfiguration, > Herbology, DADA, Potions, Charms, History of Magic, and Astronomy. > Elective: Ancient Runes, Arithmancy, and Care of Magical Creatures. > > If I understand the OWLs correctly, one can get an OWL for each > subject. This would mean that she would be able to get 10 OWLs at > the most. How did Percy (in CoS) and Barty Jr. (mentioned in GoF) > manage to get 12 OWLs? ( > > Kathryn: > Maybe you can do more than one exam for some of the subjects. For > example I studied 'science' at school for GCSE but got two grades > at the end of the course, or with maths you can do say statistics > or algebra or something. Maybe arithmancy can be split. Or since I > assume you drop some subjects before you do your newts maybe they > let you sit exams in Transfiguration and Advanced transfiguration, > with the advanced exam only being sat by those students who will > carry on to take NEWT level Transfiguration. I'd also guess that one class does not necessarily equal one exam; it's very common with the GCSE equivalent to OWLs. I took one English class, but two exams: English Literature and English Language. Tranfiguration might well be Tranfiguration (inanimate) and Transfiguration (animate to animate). Or Charms might be divided into two subject areas even though it's been taught in one class. History of Magic (British) and History of Magic (World) is another possibility. The final possibility is that the student elects to study for an extra exam; that is not unknown. You don't have to have attended classes to sit an exam. You can do the study in your own time. Since OoP is the fifth year at school, we should find out how Hermione can take 12 OWLs in June ;-) Pip From gandharvika at hotmail.com Mon Mar 10 20:04:35 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 20:04:35 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Badge Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53571 Badge (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Badge_ by Eric Clapton and Cream) A Midi is here...look under the "Goodbye" album http://www.hk.airnet.ne.jp/yamabon/eric/midi.html Ron: She told us 'bout the House-elves, they work just like slaves She told us how the elves they all need to be saved Then she told us 'bout her plan for House-elf liberation She told us that the House-elves they needed their rights She told us that we were to help them from their plight Then she said the name of "SPEW" was our organization Yes, she told us that the elves they were oppressed Didn't notice that we weren't impressed And some people even thought it was a jest That Hermione would even suggest Yes, that Hermione would suggest... Told her that the House-elves they liked being used Told her that no one would want to join her SPEW She said to wear this badge, much to my irritation -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From pennylin at swbell.net Mon Mar 10 20:05:58 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 14:05:58 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Hermione being siblings... References: Message-ID: <04a401c2e740$77a10640$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 53572 Hi -- I said: <<<< Re: genetics. Yes, it's possible that weird things can happen genetically. James has black hair and unknown color of eyes. Lily has dark red hair and green eyes. Harry got Lily's eyes, but otherwise is a carbon copy of James. Hermione has brown hair and brown eyes. There's just nothing in her appearance to foreshadow a biological relationship to the Potters...>>>>>>>>>> Fred replied: <<<<>>>>> So, let me get this straight, you think that even though Rowling has confirmed a birthdate of Sept 19th for Hermione and July 31st for Harry, she's lying to her fans? Those are straight factual answers from Rowling's mouth. I'll be the first to say she does fudge some of her chat responses, especially when she doesn't want to give it all away. But, she didn't hesitate or fudge at all in confirming those birthdates. <<<<<>>>>>>>> Hermione does not have dark hair. She has *brown* hair, which *might* be dark or it might be light. It's not confirmed anywhere in the books as dark. Sigh. I *know* that in real life, people don't always favor one or both biological parents in their appearance. But, what I'm saying is that in the Potterverse, Rowling has made the appearance of most children tied to their parents in a very clear way. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 10 21:26:46 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 21:26:46 -0000 Subject: OWLS question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53573 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "corinthum" wrote: > Ginger asked: > > > If I understand the OWLs correctly, one can get an OWL for each > > subject. This would mean that she would be able to get 10 OWLs at > > the most. How did Percy (in CoS) and Barty Jr. (mentioned in GoF) > > manage to get 12 OWLs? ... am I just understanding OWLs wrong? > > > I don't believe one has to be currently taking a class in order to > take an OWL. ...edited... > FCAT. bboy_mn: Pure speculation, but I think the test are general knowledge tests. You get credit for anything you can establish that you have sufficient general knowledge in. For example: We have something called CLEP (I used to know what that stood for) tests. When you enter college, especially if you are an older student, you can take the CLEP tests and 'CLEP out' of specific subject in which you have proven that you already have knowledge. I 'CLEP'ed out of Freshman Biology, which surprised me because I didn't think I knew that much about Biology. So on that one subject I got a free ride. I got the college credits without taking the class or paying the cost. I speculate that the UK test might be the same. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 10 22:06:56 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 22:06:56 -0000 Subject: What Defines Dark Magic? In-Reply-To: <69.35da5bfc.2b9e44d7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53574 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jodel at a... wrote: > I have a MOPPeT that Dark and Light magic are two different > procedures by which magical energy may be channeled. ... > > The problem with Dark magic is that it uses the user and eats away > at his personality over long, or cumulative, exposures. > > ...edited... > > Despite the fact that my own theories on this may seem to be comming > out of left field, I haven't yet turned up anything in canon which > absolutely contradicts it. OotP may throw it all into a cocked hat, > though. But those are the risks one takes. > > -JOdel bboy_mn: Excellent analysis I would say. I don't think your theories are at all coming out of left field. In fact, I would say that your theory fits not only JKR-HP but nearly all literature in existance that deals with Dark Magic. It is universally believed among ethical fictional and non-fictional people (that would be us and the characters in books) that Dark Magic is bad. There has to be a reason for that. And it is universally accepted that evil people gravitate toward Dark Magic. Again, there has to be a reason why. I think you covered those issues completely. My theory is that there is a negative/consumptive/destructive element in the creation of Dark Magic, and you certainly explained that destructive element better than I did. In a sense, Dark Magic is like a corrosive force on the magical and perhaps even the spiritual soul. Evil people are drawn to it because their ethics are a little questionable in the beginning, once they start using it, they fall into a self-perpetuating downward spiral, eventually, as you said, losing their humanity. I love your theory, but I think it goes beyond that. I think in forms of Dark Magic that draw from external elements, like potions, there is a destructive or negative element in the ingredients they use. For example, forcefully taking the blood of a foe, demanding the flesh of a servant, stealing the bones of your father. I can see this in other aspects of Dark Magic, but I don't really have good examples. As well as the internal destructive element that you pointed out, I speculate that in many, though perhaps not all, cases, something in the external world is destroyed or used in an unethical manner during the process of casting dark charms/spells and in dark transformations. Dispite trying to dovetail your theories into my own, I think you analysis is first rate, and stands up very well on it's own. Just a thought. bboy_mn From Meliss9900 at aol.com Mon Mar 10 22:14:01 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 17:14:01 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Hermione being siblings... Message-ID: <1ea.3dfd830.2b9e6829@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53575 In a message dated 3/10/2003 2:08:59 PM Central Standard Time, pennylin at swbell.net writes: > So, let me get this straight, you think that even though Rowling has > confirmed a birthdate of Sept 19th for Hermione and July 31st for Harry, > she's lying to her fans? Those are straight factual answers from Rowling's > mouth. I've figured it out. Hermione is really a long lost Weasley. It explains all the bickering with Ron .. sibling rivalry. Hmmm did anyone every figure out what color hair Molly has? Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 10 22:54:44 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 22:54:44 -0000 Subject: What motivated Dobby in CoS? In-Reply-To: <20030307170611.90638.qmail@web10706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53576 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SeventhSqueal wrote: > > Nobody's Rib posted: > > We don't know much about house elf magic. Might Dobby somehow *know* that it will at some point be his job to save Harry? ... > > (snip) > But house elves aren't allowed to make choices for themselves... well, all but one, the free one, the odd duck named Dobby. > > SeventhSqueal thinks about Dobby: > > Dobby's role in CoS really bothers me. If this is what motivates him: > > He (Dobby) wants to keep Harry Potter safe and away from Hogwarts. > Just because? > > I don't buy it. > > ...edited... > > There are only two ways I can justify this. > > One: Lucius Malfoy didn't want Harry Potter damaged during the following school year, ... > > Two: Narcissa Malfoy put her house elf up to preventing Harry Potter from going to Hogwarts and getting hurt, ... > > ...edited... > > Three: Add your idea here. > > ~SeventhSqueal > bboy_mn: Perhaps it is a simple as this- Everybody needs a hero. Everybody needs hope. Want the war to go better? Give the people a hero. Want the economy to pick up? Rally the citizens behind a hero. Sometime heroes are the only thing that give us the strength to carry on. DOBBY: "Ah, if HArry Potter only knew! If he knew what he means to us, to the low, the enslaved, we dregs of the magical world! Dobby remmebers how it was when He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named was at the height of his powers, sir! We house-elfs were treated like vermin, sir! Of course, Dobby is still treated like that, sir. But mostly, sir, life has improved for my kind since you triumphed over He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. Harry Potter survived, and the Dark Lord's powers was broken, and it was a new dawn, sir, and Harry Potter shone like a beacon of hope for those of us who thought the dark days would never end, sir...." That's probably all I should quote, I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to put in before I go over the line. The smallest, weakest, most helpless of beings, much like a house-elf, a baby defeated the Dark Lord. How can Dobby not see himself as a kindred spirit to that? Dobby is able to endure his miserable life because he has a hero that he can look to. Harry Potter is a noble thought upon which he can rest his weary mind during the darkest and most depressing times. Then he hears a plot, there is a good chance that his 'Beacon of Hope' may be extinguished. It took a monumental effort for Dobby to go against his very nature, and attempt to save his hero, his beacon of hope. When that 'beacon' is the only light in your dark and miserable life, we would all go to great lengths, even go against out very nature to protect it. rice.edu/armadillo/Sciacademy/riggins/henry/Act3Scene1.htm King Henry V - Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more; Or close the wall up with our English dead. In peace there's nothing so becomes a man As modest stillness and humility: But when the blast of war blows in our ears, Then imitate the action of the tiger; Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, Disguise fair nature with hard-favour'd rage; Then lend the eye a terrible aspect; I think that's what Dobby did. He set aside modest stillness and humility. Then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favour'd rage. I'll take a living hero over a dead martyr any day, and I think Dobby would too. Just a thought. bboy_mn From patricia at obscure.org Mon Mar 10 21:39:59 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 16:39:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione Aging via Time turner In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53577 On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, Mark D. wrote: > From the book, I believe she had almost triple classes which would > mean she might have aged 26-27 hours for each 24 hour day. I suggest > she might have occasionally abused the time turner to get extra > sleep and study at the same time. Let's assume your estimates are right. I think they are a bit high, but using high numbers will give us a good upper bound. 3 extra hours/day * 5 days/week (no classes on weekends, remember) = 15 extra hours/week 15 extra hours/week * 40 weeks/school year = 600 extra hours/school year 600 extra hours/24 hours per day = 25 extra days So even with your estimates, Hermione aged less than one extra month during PoA, not enough for anyone to notice much of a difference. My impression is that not every class meets every day. Therefore, she is likely to have some days where no classes conflict and she would use the time turner less often. In that case, she would age even less than the three and a half weeks we came up with above. > During breaks, I believe Hermione was the only 3rd year Gryffindor > girl at Hogwarts and might very well have taken advantage of having > a private bedroom to sleep and study at the same time. I don't agree. If Hermione had been using the time turner to get extra sleep, she would not have been so haggered during PoA. Plus, given how seriously she took Prof. McGonagall's warnings about the dangers of the time turner, I find it unlikely she would intentionally place her past and future selves in the same room. > The result of overuse of the time turner would be that Hermione > might now be older than Harry or Ron. Could she have gained an extra > 6 months during her third year? This would explain why Hermione > seems so much more mature than Harry or Ron. (It also makes it less > creepy that Krum at 18 yo is so smitten by Hermione at 15 yo.) Well, Krum was smitten with Hermione fairly early on in the book, before she had a chance to accumulate much extra aging, so the time turner is no help there. (Not that I think Krum liking Hermione is creepy in any case. I think it shows he has good taste.) In any case, girls mature faster than boys, both physically and emotionally, and Hermione is naturally a very mature person, whatever her age. It's not like she seemed immature back in PS/SS when she was eleven. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue Mar 11 01:09:43 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 01:09:43 -0000 Subject: You Will Die Alone (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53578 You Will Die Alone (GoF, Chap. 33-34) (To the tune of No One is Alone, from Sondheim's Into the Woods) Hear a MIDI at: http://www.broadwaymidi.com/shows/into_the_woods.html Note: This is a somewhat different version of the song than the one on the Original Cast album, lacking the interjections made by several of the characters. This more streamlined version is sung by Laurie Beecham on a Varese-Sarabande CD titled The Sondhein Collection. Anyone who knows the original should have no problem following it. For those who don't know the song, it's a slow, gentle lullaby sung in a soothing and consoling manner. THE SCENE: The Little Hangleton Cemetery. Having untied HARRY from his father's headstone, VOLDEMORT gloats as he prepares HARRY for a ceremonial execution. VOLDEMORT Mother cannot guide you Dumble is remote Now that I've untied you, Got you by the throat You are quite alone. Truly. You will die alone Going into battle Your position's weak Son, you lack a paddle Up that famous creek Flesh and blood and bone Have made you so alone You won by mistake. Curse scar Hearse car Escaped by mistake, Surely they in school Taught you how to duel A bow you must make Niceties we take-- Just before I feed you to my snake. Viciousness is vast, Crucios shall hurt. You will duel tonight, you'll be dead as dirt I'll dismember.... It's your Appomattox It's your Waterloo It's axiomatics: "None best You-Know-Who" You are so alone. And you will die alone (VOLDEMORT is angered that HARRY resists his Imperius Curse) Hard to you make answer You remain erect. It's just like a cancer Kids have no respect. Time is not on your side? You will die alone..... (VOLDEMORT moves in for the kill) - CMC (doing for Sondheim what Gail has done for the Beatles) HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From karenwickersham at ameritech.net Tue Mar 11 01:13:00 2003 From: karenwickersham at ameritech.net (karywick) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 01:13:00 -0000 Subject: Hermione Aging via Time turner In-Reply-To: <3E6C8DCB.000001.48147@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53579 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > > > Really? Hmm I guess that's understandable since British schools tend to be > very rigid about what year you're in. If you're 11 before the first of > September you're in that school year. I've even seen it split twins up (one > born one side of midnight the other born a few hours later, and the next > day) As such a younger student at most schools in this country would be > unheard of - it is more likely in public schools however, so between that > and the fact it's a magic school it doesn't seem that unlikely - if you can > accept that the school students are selected on the basis of their names > being recorded by a magic quill (that may or may not cope with name changes > and immigration) then it bumping Hermione up a year because of her abilities > isn't that hard to believe. She's either one of the oldest or one of the > youngest in her year and I think her behaviour is that of someone younger > than the others. > I think the way she is always trying to show her intelligence is her trying > to prove to everyone (including herself) that she belongs there - it strikes > me as a symptom of an underlying insecurity - probably not helped by her > being a muggleborn. > I am not Britsh but was born in Ohio where there was a strict law that if born after Sept 1st you had to pass a rigid test to get admitted to school early. Since I was already reading on a 2-3rd grade level and doing my sister's 2nd grade math workbooks, very bored and driving my parents crazy they got me tested and I went into 1st grade at 5. I was the youngest in my class all throughout school. I have to admit that many of my behaviors all the way up to probably graduation from highschool were like Hermiones and were very similar due to feelings of insecurity due to my younger age and always feeling that because I was younger I had to prove myself (Although I really didn't have to work too hard). So yes, although I am not English - I am a proponent of the younger Hermione theory thinking that a magical quill can bump a person up sensing that they are ready or for some reason "needed" at Hogwarts at that time. Maybe we'll find out for sure someday how old and who and her parents Hermione really are (if not just who they seem to be). Kary From karenwickersham at ameritech.net Tue Mar 11 01:43:53 2003 From: karenwickersham at ameritech.net (karywick) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 01:43:53 -0000 Subject: OWLS question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53580 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "corinthum" wrote: > > > > > > > > I don't believe one has to be currently taking a class in order to > > take an OWL. ...edited... > > FCAT. > > bboy_mn: > > Pure speculation, but I think the test are general knowledge tests. > You get credit for anything you can establish that you have sufficient > general knowledge in. > > For example: > We have something called CLEP (I used to know what that stood for) tests. > > When you enter college, especially if you are an older student, you > can take the CLEP tests and 'CLEP out' of specific subject in which > you have proven that you already have knowledge. I 'CLEP'ed out of > Freshman Biology, which surprised me because I didn't think I knew > that much about Biology. So on that one subject I got a free ride. I > got the college credits without taking the class or paying the cost. > > I speculate that the UK test might be the same. > > Just a thought. > Now me: Hey bboy you must be close to my age - in your 30's at least because its a bit different now in the US but bassically the same idea. Starting as early as your sophmore year (but that's rare) advanced students, like Hermione would be considered in Muggle studies right now, would take Advanced Placement classes. We are simialr to Hogwarts or even less in that wee only offer six hours or credits in a in a year, so many of our kids at our high school take summer school classes to get rid of requirements that they aren't interester in such as gym, history, or an English elective so they can take the high powered advanced placement classes like Biology 4th year , Organic Chemistry, Physics (3rd year Physics) Advanced placement Literature or Writing (2 classes) Advanced Placement American or World Histroy, Advance Placement Economics, Advanced Placement (insert any language here but my public high school only teaches Japanese, Chinese Latin, French, German and Spanish (5th year) Advanced Placement Art and so on and so on. . . . There are many, many tests that the students pay about $150 to take and they do not have to take the class to take them, it's just that taking the class alnost guarantees you passing that test and getting 4 credits of college for $150. Parents around here love it because you can basically start college as a sophomore without paying the going rate per credit hour if you have a student that capable and willing to do the work. In addition it looks great on college transcripts. So I'm sure that with the better students like with Hermione. Or with the Head boys or Girls, they can study take some subjects for only 3 years and the another for 3 or 4 years and take an owl on each by just reviewing before the final test. No one said that each OWL had to be a full 7 year course of study. The trio is being introduced to new classes every year it seems, so it seems that they will have choices as to what owls to take and the better students like Hermione can probably take OWLs on subjects they haven't formally studies at Hogwarts but have read the textbook on and studied the study guide on at home. Can anyone on this list actually see Hermione failing a Muggle studies OWL if she had the textbook to read through before the test? ;-) Kary From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Tue Mar 11 01:59:47 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 01:59:47 -0000 Subject: Harry and Hermione being siblings... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53581 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Fred Waldrop" < > Fred Once more; > Hummm, Half siblings..... James fathers 2 children with 2 differant > women.... It is truly prossible and it could/would explain the > birthday differance (although I still think they are twins, but I > might be wrong). If, say James had a bachelor party, or went to one > of someone elses, and things get out of hand, and the consiquence is > a baby born out of wed lock. Or any number of other reasons. > Lots of things can happen, and just look at how many theorize about > what each and every person "might" do, and who will JKR introduce > next, ect. But OH BOY, is it fun!!!!!!!!! > Or ... Hermione and Harry are first cousins. James had a sister who was, of course, the love interest of one Severus Snape. James 'put his foot down' to a relationship between the two but they went ahead with a relationship in secret. However as Snape became more involved with the DL he feared for her safety and for her sake feigned boredom/regret/disillusionment/whatever with their relationship and foresook her. Abandoned by the one she loved, pregnant to boot and too humiliated to go to her brother (having been right about the SOB all along), she flees to the muggle world to have her baby. In a tragic turn of events she dies during childbirth or shortly after and the baby girl is put up for adoption ... (is that too reminiscent of Tom Riddle's story?) James and Snape are equally to blame for her self imposed exhile and each blame the other for their loss, however neither know of the existence of a baby (nor anyone else). Hermione Snape and Harry Potter == first cousins How's that? Erica From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 11 04:21:51 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 20:21:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's dreams/Petunia/Draco's Wand/Hagrid & Crookshanks=Clues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030311042151.52967.qmail@web40511.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53582 grace701 wrote: Basically, will Sirius, or some other "unknown relative" take Harry away? Who was Harry's godmother? (Mrs. Weasley!;)) ME:There's no way, IMHO, that Mrs. Weasley is Harry's Godmother. The way she reacted when she first met Harry at King's Cross makes it seem that she had never seen him. Also, I think it would have come out by now if she and Arthur knew James and Lily. I also think the kids, especially Bill and Charlie, would have known about the Potters because they were relatively old, Bill may have even been in Hogwarts, when Lily and James died. P.96 - Harry meets Draco for the first time at Madam Malkin's Robes for all Occasions shop. Draco says: "My father's next door buying my books and my mother's up the street looking at wands..." he continues to talk of broomsticks. Question/Clue: Did he mean his mother was buying him his wand? Why would she be looking at wands without him being there? It doesn't make any sense to me. Of course, it is more than likely he went afterwards to buy it, but why is she looking at it. What's the point in that? ME: Ok, Mrs. Malfoy is a witch, she needs a wand too. Maybe she's looking for a new wand for *herself*. Maybe she just went to talk to Mr.Ollivander, he does seem talkative. P. 101 - Hagrid on getting Harry an animal as his birthday present: "...Not a toad, toads went outta fashion years ago, yeh'd be laughed at - an' I don't like cats, they make me sneeze. ..." ~Kathryn --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 11 04:28:23 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 20:28:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Hermione being siblings... In-Reply-To: <1ea.3dfd830.2b9e6829@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030311042823.18204.qmail@web40508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53583 Meliss9900 at aol.com wrote: Hmmm did anyone ever figure out what color hair Molly has? I don't think we *know* but my guess is red. I guess this because I know JKR had some input in the movie and the actress that plays Mollie doesn't naturally have red hair-it was either dyed that color or she had a wig. I'd assume that JKR was either asked or said, "Molly Weasley's hair should be red like the kids." Just my thoughts:)~Kathryn --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tub_of_earwax at yahoo.com Tue Mar 11 04:51:09 2003 From: tub_of_earwax at yahoo.com (tub_of_earwax) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 04:51:09 -0000 Subject: Hermione's age Q: ANSWERED!!!!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53584 Hermione's age question. I don't remember it ever being answered. If I'm mistaken, I'm very sorry. I was talking to a friend of mine, and suddenly we came up with a solution to her age question. We have solved the mystery (I think). And I have canon to support it. Now if you will please pay attention to the following lines: GOF page 261 hardcover US edition. "Well, I've done it! I've just put my name in!" "You're kidding!" said Ron, looking impressed. "Are you seventeen, then?" asked Harry. "'Course she is, can't see a beard, can you?" said Ron. "I had my birthday last week," said Angelina. This means Angelina's birthday is in October somewhere, because she said this with Halloween-ish. Angelina was in her sixth year. 17- 6=11. She was eleven in October when she first came to Hogwarts, which means: Hermione started Hogwarts at the age of 10. She was born September 9th 1980. Yay! Gotta go sleep now. *Lara*. From hp at plum.cream.org Tue Mar 11 05:10:33 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 05:10:33 +0000 Subject: British Muggle/Wizarding schooling (was re: OWLS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030311015935.0095d670@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53585 I've just come home from a night out and have been a bit surprised by some of the comments made about OWLs and similar issues. I've been thinking about putting together a comprehensive overview of how JKR has modelled Hogwarts on the British (actually, more specifically, *English*) education system that might be able to be included in the FAQ (or indeed in the Lexicon; there is currently a short article on O and A Levels but it's incomplete). This was going to start off as a quick overview, but has ended up a lot more detailed. There's not a lot of canon, and it's also very, very long (I'm writing this sentence while proof-reading) but it might be of interest... I would suggest that folk interested in the background of the current UK system might want to read these: http://www.know-britain.com/general/education_in_england_3.html, and/or http://www.kbr30.dial.pipex.com/educ19.shtml the latter is more complete and includes references to all relevant education legislation, but it is written from a staunchly left-wing perspective, so if you're touchy about politics, you may not want to read about the modern stuff. OK, on with it... This is how real-world school students prepare for the end of their schooling. Aged 14-15, pupils select which subjects they will be taking at GCSE. GCSEs are taken in separate curriculum subjects, in complete isolation from all others. One subject's results have absolutely no effect on another's, or in overall marking. (BTW "GCSE" stands for General Certificate of Secondary Education. They replaced the old "O Level" examination which most of the Brits aged roughly 30+ on this list will have taken; I won't go into detail about O levels which were slightly different, but not different enough to require separate investigation.) One fairly recent implementation is that most GCSE examinations now include a proportion of "course work". This means that during the year or two (depending on subject) prior to the actual written/oral examination, certain projects, minor examinations and other elements of classwork are included in the "dossier" which is passed to the examining body. The percentage of the final mark which is derived from coursework varies from subject to subject, anywhere from 10% to 40%. Exams and/or subjects for GCSE do not necessarily follow curriculum subjects. Thus, the study of languages (English or foreign), say, can result in GCSEs in Language, Literature or Culture, or any combination of the three. GCSEs in mathematics can be taken in Maths, Economics, Statistics, or several other branches of mathematics. History can be divided into several periods or approaches to historical study (including Archeology, etc). However, it should be noted that GCSEs are also available in subjects not normally considered "academic": drama, woodwork, metalwork, cookery, sewing, just about any sport you might want to mention, or any range of arts, crafts or "talents". Enough examples, I think we get the picture. As a rule (exceptions are possible, and indeed frequent), around June of the school year during which they celebrate their 16th birthday (as a matter of legal principle and regardless of actual school dates, the school year runs 1st September-31st August, hence 1st September being the cut-off date for the year you enroll at school), pupils sit an examination session in each of their selected subjects. The form of the examination depends, of course, on the subject. The examination papers are added to the "dossier" and this is passed to an external examining board. All GCSE results nationwide are announced on the same day (it's sometime in August, I can't be bothered to look up the exact date). Pupils receive written confirmation of their results in all subjects by post at home, schools receive a printout of all their pupils' results, and other interested parties (e.g. the government, the press, local education authorities) receive full statistical data. It is usual for students to attempt between 4 and 10 subjects at GCSE. However, as students have absolute freedom in which and how many subjects they will tackle, the numbers fluctuate wildly. Anyone with decent grades in over 10 subjects is considered "above average" and anyone with under 3 is pretty much doomed to a job in McDonalds, if at all. Students who show an early aptitude in a particular subject can be put forward by their teacher/tutor to take the exam in *any year*. Every year, when the national statistics are announced, the press makes a big noise about them and analyses them in every direction possible. The press stories always include reports of such-and-such an 8 year-old getting A grades in such-and-such GCSEs and such-and-such a 12 year-old getting A grades in 12 subjects. Stories of 14 year-olds (especially those from better schools) taking several subjects are extremely common. Regardless of the subjects a pupil has chosen to take at GCSE, they are required to follow a full curriculum until the end of the year in which they have the exams. So for instance, even if someone does not consider him/herself good enough to attempt Geography, they continue studying it. If they suddenly realise they have an aptitude for it after all, as long as they have completed the coursework, they can still add the subject to their exam schedule. Once a pupil has taken their GCSEs, they are free to leave full-time education and seek permanent employment. Most people's resumes start with a statement of how many GCSEs they obtained. This is usually expanded into a listing of which individual subjects one passed, and the grades obtained. No employer will even look at someone unless they have pass grades in English Language, Basic Mathematics and at least one other relevant subject. Again, it is important to note (for the benefit of those from other countries or educational traditions) that the important thing anyone is ever interested in, is the number of subjects you have (and, secondarily, the list of subjects). It doesn't matter how eclectic the list is, you still start off saying "I have X GCSEs". For instance, someone with English, Geography, Cookery, Music, Drama, Needlework and Football still has six GCSEs. However, any prospective employer will note immediately the absence of Maths or any other scientific subject from that list and ask appropriate questions, but it's unlikely that someone with a mix like that would be going for a job in a bank or to work with computers. :-) OK, that's GCSEs. What happens next? Anyone wishing to go on to university will be required to sit A Levels (the A stands for "Advanced" and is a throwback to the old system which included O - "Ordinary" - Levels; see above), sometimes (rarely) referred to as GCEs (General Certificate of Education). Peripherally, I will note the existence of the AS Level, which I will overlook in this essay because it doesn't seem relevant to Hogwarts. Anyway, A Levels. The system is very similar to GCSEs, with just a few specific differences. Pupils choose which subjects they will take to A Level after their GCSEs and they attend classes in ONLY those subjects. Most A Level exams require two years preparation, hence real-world schools used to call the last two years of school "lower sixth" and "upper sixth" year/form, rather than "sixth" and "seventh" (the nomenclature changed a few years ago, and is now counted in consecutive school years throughout one's school career, so you start at age 5 in Year One, and continue through to Year 13 when you are 18). Also, a lot of schools lead only to GCSEs and do not actually provide A Level courses, in which case A Level pupils move to a "Sixth Form College". The examination procedure is the same (although, of course, more advanced in content) and results are again announced nationally on the same day. This is, as I recall, two weeks before the GCSE results are announced. Again, as with GCSEs, the only important question is "how many A Levels do you have?", the answer is usually between two and four. Access to universities is based on the number of examinations taken and the grades achieved. The exact requirements are fixed by the individual universities and vary according to the type of degree course you want to follow. Also, as with GCSEs, there is no age restriction and schools put forward gifted children of all ages to sit A Levels (and again, the press makes a big story about them). One VERY, VERY important thing to know, and this is of particular interest to HP fanfic writers (I see this all over the place which is why I'm making such a big deal about it, and why the next phrase will be emphasised, and even shouted) THERE IS NO CONCEPT OF "GRADUATING" SECONDARY SCHOOL IN BRITAIN! I cannot underline the importance of the last sentence enough. It is *such* a CENTRAL part of the whole philosophy of British education that I'm going to repeat it again: THERE IS NO CONCEPT OF "GRADUATING" SECONDARY SCHOOL IN BRITAIN. One does not "graduate" secondary school, there is no formal leaving ceremony, there are no awards (TBH, some schools have formal leaving gigs, but these are not directly related to academic achievement, and are very, very rare) . As for the term itself, most Brits reading HP fanfic written by non-Brits, bristle at the very use of the word "graduation", as it is completely foreign to our experience, and for those with some knowledge of the underlying principles of the British system, it is an anachronism. The term "graduate" (as a noun, a person) is reserved *exclusively* for someone who has completed tertiary education and has received their degree. Indeed, the formal term for people studying for degrees is "undergraduate". Those studying for PhDs etc are "postgraduates". After that small digression, on to something which some people may have difficulty grasping (NOTE: I am not calling anyone "stupid", I'm just saying that this is such a "British" thing that a lot of people have difficulty getting around it). Just as GCSEs and A Levels can be attempted by any child whose teachers consider them of an appropriate standard, they can also be attempted by any adult of any age at any time. So for instance, if a 20 year-old decides after a couple of years working in an office that they know enough about other things (e.g. as a result of hobbies etc) that they wish to study them at university but have no formal A levels (or not enough), that person can enroll at any one of miriad "adult colleges" who inter alia offer out-of-hours tuition, or indeed any normal sixth-year college if they don't mind going to school with people half their age or less during the daytime, and study up for any A Levels they wish (of course, if they can prove a basic aptitude for the subject). Having obtained any A Levels they may require, they can then apply for a university place. There is therefore no need for "equivalence" exams or anything of that ilk. If your schoolwork suffered in a particular area and as an adult you wish to "better yourself", all you need to do is to take the very same A Levels that everyone else is taking. A concrete example of a currently 39 year-old friend of mine who was seriously ill at the age of 16 and thus had poor O Levels (as they were at the time) and no A Levels to his name. When he fully recovered from illness at the age of 19, he got an office job thanks to a family friend, which he did for 15 years or more. However, he's always had a fascination for and great interest in ancient history, and so over the last 3 years he sailed through A Levels in English, Latin, Greek, History, Ancient History (and another subject I've forgotten) and is currently a full-time student at a London University. He has, of course, given up his job (which he hated). :-) Not only that, but he got involved with and last year married one of his fellow A Level students, a 19 year-old (at the time). :-) Enough of Muggle schools. How does this translate to the Potterverse? A few observations: 1) OWLs appear to be the equivalent of GCSEs. GoF says they're taken at 15 (chapter 5, UK ed. p. 52) , but Harry will be taking them in his 5th year, i.e. the school year in which he turns 16, which is just another way of looking at it. 2) The important element of the exams is how many one has (e.g. "They [F&G] didn't get as many OWLs as she [Molly] expected.", ibid; "My son has recently gained twelve OWLs, most satisfactory....", GoF Ch. 28, UK Ed. p. 482 ) 3) The results are announced after the formal end of the school year ("Percy had got his top-grade NEWTs; Fred and George had scraped a handful of OWLs each.", last chapter of PoA) 3) NEWTs are taken during one's last year at Hogwarts and thus are the equivalent of real-world A Levels. However, JKR has said that there are no universities, so what it is the point of a NEWT? "Percy was getting ready to take his NEWTs, the highest qualification Hogwarts offered. As Percy hoped to enter the Ministry of Magic, he needed top grades." (PoA Ch. 16, p. 231) 4) The most OWLs we know someone to possess are 12 for Barty Crouch Jr. (I have a vague recollection that Percy got 13, but I can't find it in my canon!). We know of 13 subjects thus far: Astronomy, Ancient Runes, Arithmancy, Charms, COMC, Herbology, DADA, Divination, Transfiguration, History of Magic, Flying/Quidditch, Muggle Studies and Potions, and our heroes are entering their OWL year, which means that there shouldn't be any new subjects and although some subjects could be liable to sub-division (History of Magic into periods, for instance), it seems like 13 is perhaps a maximum. BartyCrouch Snr's proud attitude towards his son's achievement of 12 is a fairly good representation of any Muggle's getting 12 GCSEs. 5) Hermione has not taken any OWLs ahead of the curriculum. Either the Hogwarts curriculum hasn't yet covered enough material, or the wizarding world's education philosophy is different, and they want everyone taking their exams at the same time, regardless of talent. 6) Of peripheral interest to the "Hogwarts is the only wizarding school in Britain" controversy: it is perfectly possible that Hogwarts is the only school which offers a *complete* curriculum, from 11 to NEWTs at 18. Other schools might specialise in one area or another and be known for their Potions or Transfiguration curriculum to NEWT and beyond; other schools might provide a limited curriculum only up to OWLs. It is possible that some pupils might attend Hogwarts purely to sit OWL or NEWT exams there, or to study for them for a limited time. Personally, I consider this unlikely as Harry *probably* would have noticed an older student he'd never seen before, not to mention that such students would *probably* need to be Sorted; no non-11 year-olds have ever been noticed at the Sorting ceremony. 7) I know I had another observation to make, but I've forgotten what it was. :-) God, this has got long enough (I've been writing it for almost four hours) so I'll stop here. I'm sure other issues will crop up, but I leave them for any possible discussion anyone might want to have. I'm aware that this is a borderline case of topicality (canon isn't mentioned until the very end), but I think it might help some people understand what we're likely to expect in terms of the academic year at Hogwarts in the firth book, and perhaps beyond. It might also encourage one or two fanfic authors not to refer to "graduation". :-) I would suggest that this essay and resulting discussion may want to be made into an item for the FAQ/Lexicon, as some of these subjects rear their heads fairly often. Of course, some of the details just might be disproved with the publication of OotP... :-) -- GulPlum AKA Richard, putting off replying to the Marauders thread for a third day... From flamingstarchows at att.net Tue Mar 11 05:26:59 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 23:26:59 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Hermione being siblings... References: <20030311042823.18204.qmail@web40508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006c01c2e78e$d7421640$3015570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 53586 Meliss9900 at aol.com wrote: Hmmm did anyone ever figure out what color hair Molly has? Didn't Harry think to himself when he recieved the newspaper article from Ron in Egypt (PoA) that even though the picture didn't show it, there were all the Weasley's with their flaming red hair? ~Cathy~ From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Tue Mar 11 07:07:08 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 23:07:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Quidditch as Metaphor In-Reply-To: <004001c2e631$12207c20$723b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20030311070708.1797.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53587 Mr. Ed wrote, in part: > > > What if Quidditch is an idea > > > that overlays the entirety of > > > the series? Yours truly replied: > > Yes, this is my reading of the > > main narrative function of > > Quidditch too; the Quidditch > > positions had struck me as being > > reminiscent of archetypes when > > first I read of them. JKR seems > > to be making this metaphor between > > sport and hero's journey with a > > very light touch though, and as it > > is, I am not convinced that JKR > > has already presented us with all > > that she has to say about the > > similarities between playing the > > Game of Quidditch and being > > the Hero of your own Life. Debbie: > I agree that JKR is using Quidditch > metaphorically. Back in > December I wrote a lengthy post > analyzing the game as metaphor for > Harry's struggle against Voldemort. > > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ > HPforGrownups/message/48192) Ooh! Thanks for pointing me! I missed this one when you first posted it. Mind if I comment on a few things now? Debbie, in part, 5300+ posts ago: > I think JKR has used Quidditch as a > metaphor for the struggle against > Voldemort and the players' roles in > the fight; moreover, the Quidditch > sequences appear to foreshadow > subsequent events. When you think > about it, sport seems an obvious > choice for a metaphor. A game or > sporting competition *is* an armed > conflict of a sort. In fact, here in > the US football players are > frequently referred to as "weekend > warriors." What is significant here, > I think, is how carefully JKR > appears to have modeled each > position and chosen who will play > each position to mirror their > personalities and/or their possible > role in the coming war, and how she > has choreographed the matches > themselves to foreshadow what > happens in the Voldemort struggle. Hmm...yours is actually a slightly different take on canon than mine, though I think we are sensing, essentially, the same things. Nice read, BTW. :) Where we differ, if I read you correctly in the rest of your post not quoted above, is that you seem to be extrapolating from their Quidditch functions certain characters' functions in the upcoming Voldemort War. I see the metaphor as containing one more degree of separation. That is, someone who plays on a Quidditch team may or may not play the same kind of role in the V War. The dynamics and strategies involved in Quidditch, however, may very well reflect the dynamics and strategies that will come into play in the warfare that will be waged in the future books. In other words, how the various archetypes interact in the paradigm of sport may be similar to how their counterparts interact in the paradigm of warfare. The lessons that Harry learns from playing Quidditch may prove useful in his stand against Voldemort. See, I am not sure that if a character performs one function in one paradigm, s/he will perform the same function in the other. What of those who do not play Quidditch? Hermione is not one to join in even the 'pick-up' game at the Burrow in GoF. But I think we agree that she'll play a big part in the V War. Which is to say I see analysis of these parallels as shedding light on plotlines but not on destinies of characters. Harry may turn out to be the only character to function consistently in both life and sport. Debbie said in part about The Seeker: > Compare [examples of Harry being The > Team Player] to Viktor Krum's > decision to end the QWC on his own > terms, even though he seals > Bulgaria's loss to Ireland. This > preserved his own status as the most > brilliant Seeker, and though it > could be interpreted as sparing his > team the ignominy of a worse defeat, > he snatched any hope Bulgaria might > have had of pulling off a stunning > comeback. I don't think Harry would > ever do that - in my mind, he would > always give his team a chance for > victory, even though things might > seem hopeless. The comparison here between Harry who refrained from catching the Snitch and Krum who didn't would make the case for considering Harry to be a team player and Krum not IF we are given the impression that Krum was motivated by the desire to "preserved his own status as the most brilliant Seeker" on the way "to get glory for himself." Mind pointing me again? I never got that impression. But I think your point stands nevertheless, and in fact can be made without raising Krum the 'selfish' as a foil to Harry the selfless. You already raised examples of how Harry chooses to benefit the Light Side/his Quidditch team over his own person. However, another Seeker's behavior can be raised as the counterpoint to Harry's team player tendencies: Malfoy. In CoS, because Malfoy was too busy with the personal pleasure of laughing at Harry for looking stupid as he dodged the Rogue Bludger, Malfoy failed to realize that the Snitch was within his reach...that he can win this one for the Slytherin team. * * * More recently - Yours truly: > > Pettigrew very well may be the > > Snitch in this metaphor and Ron > > trying to turn him yellow, the > > color of gold, may indeed be a bit > > of a punchline... Mr. Ed: > > > Maybe the action in the story > > > will reach its conclusion when > > > Pettigrew is caught in a way > > > that has some finality? Debbie: > In my earlier analysis, I had simply > suggested that the Golden Snitch > simply represents victory. The idea > that victory will turn on which > side is able to *capture* Pettigrew > for its own use is interesting, > especially in light of Pettigrew's > life debt to Harry. This would tie > Harry's mercy to the eventual > victory of the *light* side. > However, the game must end with the > capture of the Snitch, and I don't > see Pettigrew's capture as the > climax of the final battle, so I > think I find the Golden Snitch as > Victory to be more satisfactory. > I should also add that my dictionary > says that "snitch" also means "to > take by stealth" which is of course > the best way to catch the Snitch -- > without the Snitch itself or the > opposing Seeker realizing it (the > Snitch is bewitched to evade capture > as long as possible, according to > QTTA). This would be an > alternative, but fitting explanation > for the Golden Snitch's name. Though I'd put my money on this metaphor to work on both levels, I agree that just catching Peter would be poor climax. Maybe Peter will turn out to have more to him... Y'know, it would be interesting if Peter undergoes such a personal transformation that his animagus form changes, say, to a Golden Snidget, the precursor to the Golden Snitch. How's that for redemption? Petra a n :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Mar 11 07:31:58 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 23:31:58 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's age Q: ANSWERED!!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <121142085900.20030310233158@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53588 Hi, Monday, March 10, 2003, 8:51:09 PM, tub_of_earwax wrote: > Angelina was in her sixth year. 17- > 6=11. > She was eleven in October when she first came to Hogwarts, which > means: Wait a sec! Let's look at that theory a little closer. Angelina turned 12 in her first year (in October, just a couple of months into the new school year), 13 in her 2nd year, 14 in her 3rd, 15 in her 4rth, 16 in the 5th year, and 17 in her 6th year. So, she was already 11 when she started and turned 12 at the beginning of year one. We are back to the age question being unanswered. > Hermione started Hogwarts at the age of 10. > She was born September 9th 1980. Possibly, but it's equally plausible (maybe more so, looking at Angelina's birthday?) that Hermione was born in 1979. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Tue Mar 11 03:48:14 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 03:48:14 -0000 Subject: It Must Work (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53589 This filk is a parody of "It Needs Work", from the Larry Gelbart musical "City of Angels". As you already know, the original music can be found at this site: http://www.broadwaymidi.com/shows/city_of_angels.html This filk is dedicated to CMC, who can filk with the best of them with songs both popular and obscure, and to Anne U. It Must Work Scene: Moaning Myrtle's Lavatory. Hermione is trying to convince Harry and Ron (and herself) that it will be safe and effective to take the Polyjuice Potion. Moaning Myrtle just listens in silence.) The dreaded Boomslang beast, We'd shredded skin it shed after it was deceased. We stole Snape's private stores, The powdered horn of the Bicorn was there. You have to listen, guys, The Lacewing flies must stew for three full weeks, at least. So, we'll delay this tryst until The Christmas Feast. It must work. I wheedled Lockhart, Ron. It paid off when I played into his vanity. Signed the permission slip; His ego trip was more than I could bear, Restricted section-bound, We found "Most Potente Potions" in the Library. Its recipes were clear for anyone to see. It must work. We only have to add A little "Goyle" in it, A little "Crabbe" in it, And some "Bulstrode" in it. And since we put the best Fruits of our toil in it, We can't recoil from it, Not if there be night soil in it. Go to the Entrance Hall And take these chocolate cakes up to the bannister. I'm sure those greedy gits Will gobble them to bits without a care. So, if you want to flaunt your new-learned craft, You'd better give those boys that sleeping draught. You have to dare this task to get some of their hair. You can't be shy; it's "Do or die!" It must work. We found old Mrs. Norris hanging by her tail. And even worse, we thought that she had died. When Argus Filch had seen her, he let out a wail. But Dumbledore took him aside, Said she was only petrified. The writing on the wall; The past has cast a blast of fear on one and all. The Chamber opening, And also warning "Enemies, beware!" We've taken up the quest to stop this crime. Since we've decided it's the proper time To discover who is Salazar Slytherin's Heir. Now hear me, boys, you can't be coy, Or you will never fool Malfoy. We've done our job, we'll trick that snob! It must work. (Harry and Ron, reluctant but persuaded, proceed with their mission. After all her preparation, Hermione has decided not to come along, for some reason.) Haggridd From smotgreg at hotmail.com Tue Mar 11 04:08:42 2003 From: smotgreg at hotmail.com (Greg Johnson) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 20:08:42 -0800 Subject: Dobby/Secret Keeper choice Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53590 SeventhSqueal wrote: >Which leads us to the next question. Would the >Malfoy's ever knowingly accept the Potter's old >house-elf? I wonder if it's like all the spoils of war go to the victor? If my memory of history serves me correctly, slaves were often given to the victorious party. This could lead to a stronger connection of Lucius being involved with the night Voldemort killed James and Lily. I just have a sneaky suspicion that Voldemort did not act alone. Or maybe Potter!Dobby thought of himself to become Spy!Dobby and willingly enter the house of Malfoy to learn their secrets, and then to save Harry when Harry entered Hogwarts. Oh wait, he can't share his master's secrets. These poor house-elves have it rough. As for the Malfoy's knowingly accepting a Potter house-elf, IMO, they could view the situation with superiority. "We got that nasty Potter house-elf, Dobby. Boy is he ever going to pay for being there! We'll work him to the bone and treat him like dirt." bboy_mn wrote: >rice.edu/armadillo/Sciacademy/riggins/henry/Act3Scene1.htm >King Henry V - > >Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more; >Or close the wall up with our English dead. >In peace there's nothing so becomes a man >As modest stillness and humility: >But when the blast of war blows in our ears, >Then imitate the action of the tiger; >Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, >Disguise fair nature with hard-favour'd rage; >Then lend the eye a terrible aspect; > >I think that's what Dobby did. He set aside modest stillness and >humility. Then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, >summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favour'd rage. > >I'll take a living hero over a dead martyr any day, and I think Dobby >would too. > Oh, I love Henry V! Well done! This is another great idea of why Dobby wants to assist Harry, and could fit in with Spy!Dobby, too. As to how Winky and Dobby knew each other, here are my possiblities: 1) Wizards have owls to deliver messages, why not hummingbirds for house elf messages? House-elf pen pal exchange. 2) House elf trading/obtaining meetings. Like the slave auctions. Even if a house elf wasn't being traded, he or she would most likely travel with his or her master. Hmmm, now that point has made me realize that both of these house elves belonged to the men of the family, or at least answered to the men of the family. Are there lady-in-waiting house elves that answer to the woman of the house? And one thought regarding the Sirius/Lupin/Wormtail/Dumbledore Secret Keeper choosing: I assumed being a Secret Keeper would be a dangerous mission. James knew that Dumbledore would have been a great secret keeper, but was unwilling to endanger his life. If we didn't have Dumbledore-yikes! Sirius, Lupin, and Wormtail would have been the next choices - friends willing to die for one another. My guess is that Lupin wasn't chosen because he was busy doing something else (other than changing into a werewolf). Sirius was the obvious choice, then, because Peter was too pathetic. But, somehow, Peter convinced Sirius to be the Secret Keeper. Imperious curse? I don't think Sirius would have made Peter the Keeper without some serious thought and suggestions from Peter. I would think a Secret Keeper would have to live a life on the run from whomever was seeking the secret, and perhaps Peter convinced Sirius a rat could run better than a dog. You know, I wish Harry would ask more questions of these people. It would sure help the rest of us out! :) Stacie - who appreciates reading posts from people who are brave enough to post in their non-native language, and who should write her friend in France more often, but is too embarrassed to because of not being able to write in French as well as she wishes. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From patricia at obscure.org Tue Mar 11 05:45:28 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 00:45:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's age Q: ANSWERED!!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53591 On Tue, 11 Mar 2003, tub_of_earwax wrote: > This means Angelina's birthday is in October somewhere, because > she > said this with Halloween-ish. Angelina was in her sixth year. 17- > 6=11. > She was eleven in October when she first came to Hogwarts, which > means: > > Hermione started Hogwarts at the age of 10. > She was born September 9th 1980. Er, I'm not following this. Are you saying Angelina *turned* 11 during her first year? If so, that's not correct. Angelina's 6th year: age 16-17 5th year: age 15-16 4th year: age 14-15 3rd year: age 13-14 2nd year: age 12-13 1st year: age 11-12 Ergo, Angelina was 11 when she entered Hogwarts. I think your problem is in the equation "17-6=11". First year is only five years prior to sixth year (6-5=1). So the equation you should have used is "17-5=12", showing that Angelina turned 12 during her first year. Even if Angelina had been 10 when she entered Hogwarts, that doesn't mean that Hermione was definitely also 10 when she entered. It would only mean that starting at age 10 is a possibility. The question of whether it actually happened in Hermione's case would still be open. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From sarohpenguin at hotmail.com Tue Mar 11 07:15:20 2003 From: sarohpenguin at hotmail.com (ladycrookshanks) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 07:15:20 -0000 Subject: Goblins, Gringotts, and Flitwick Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53592 This is a 3 part theory. Bear with me. ^_^ Part 1: Hagrid is abnormally large, and we discovered that it was because he is half Giant. So who is the other wizard of abnormal size? Flitwick. And in the movies he is played by the same actor who plays a Goblin - could this be a clue? Could Flitwick be part Goblin? Part 2: We know so much about the Goblins and Gringotts, yet they have not played a very important role yet. Hagrid tells Harry that Gringotts is the safest place in the world next to Hogwarts. We know that the vaults stretch for miles beneath London, and that there are a lot of nasty creatures guarding them (including dragons). The Goblin Liaison Office is mentioned briefly in Goblet of Fire, and we are told that Cuthbert Mockridge leads this department. One of the few historical events we hear anything about from professor Binns is the Goblin Rebellions. And finally, we know Bill Weasley works for Gringotts, and so far, he has probably had the fewest appearances out of the Weasleys. So are the Goblins, and Gringotts, going to be taking on more important roles later on? Part 3: Assuming the above two theories work, what does that mean? If Flitwick is indeed part Goblin, that means that Hogwarts has ties to the Goblins as well as the Giants. Goblins would make formidable allies. However, if they side with Voldemort (as Goblins seem to be less interested in what is right than what they can get out of the situation), could Flitwick be helpful in the fight against them, or possibly, for whatever reason, in helping to guide the good guys through the vast underground system that is Gringotts? (Part 4: Am I insanely overanalytical?) "ladycrookshanks" From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Mar 11 10:04:44 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 10:04:44 -0000 Subject: Quidditch as Metaphor/ Triwizard Champions&Houses/Wands In-Reply-To: <20030311070708.1797.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53593 Petra: > > Though I'd put my money on this > metaphor to work on both levels, I > agree that just catching Peter would > be poor climax. Maybe Peter will turn > out to have more to him... > > Y'know, it would be interesting if > Peter undergoes such a personal > transformation that his animagus form > changes, say, to a Golden Snidget, the > precursor to the Golden Snitch. > > How's that for redemption? Well, though Peter's not Snitch in "defeat Voldemort", he IS the Snitch in "Redeem Sirius Black". After all, the battle to clear his reputation will not end unless Peter is caught, and Peter's capture WOULD give Sirius' reputation somewhat clearing, much as the Snitch gives lots of score. However, eventhough the rat WAS caught it doesn't yet mean that Sirius is cleared in the eyes of wizarding public. Ministry/court/whatever must recognise this, (likely that they do, if Peter the Snitch is caught, but if the members deciding aren't honest enough, they won't unless there's enough 'Quaffle-score' - positive, supporting publicity). Supportive articles and new people to support Sirius - AND catching Peter. But I do like Peter taking the form of a Snidget instead of a rat! After all, Snidget is a protected species and Harry has protected Peter... of course, it makes capturing and keeping him that much more difficult. A rat you can keep from transforming with a snake, and Harry being Parselmouth, that's not even difficult for him... All he needs is to learn the Serpensortia-spell and tell the snake to watch Peter... Of course, if they catch Peter during OoP, get Sirius free and clear (I assume that Sirius and Snape settling their differences plays a part here), then Pettigrew can frame his death, be 'reborn' as Snidget-animagus and fly to freedom unnoticed AND ends up saving Harry... ******** As to the Champions: Harry(Gryffindor - sorted there), Cedric (Hufflepuff, sorted) - Krum: Slytherin, counting the reputation of the Durmstrang school, his *obvious* cheat, doing simple spell on Dragon's eyes- although Karkaroff is even more so. Fleur: Ravenclaw (only one left), her charms did enough for her to manage the dragon, while she lost against Grindylows, this task required more of physical work than intelligence, but she might well have cleared the maze if only Crouch!Moody hadn't stunned her... Ollivander didn't seem to need incantation to summon those smokes out of Cedric's wand or a fountain of wine from Harry's - but did need one to summon birds out of Krum's or flowers from Fleur's. This might be because Harry's and Cedric's wands were of his making. He told them who made Krum's wand. But not of Fleur's. I think that it was Fleur's *second* wand, of her own making. If a wand that chooses you, gives you better results than another's wand, how much better would a wand you made for yourself be? -- Finwitch From ultimatesen at aol.com Tue Mar 11 02:58:24 2003 From: ultimatesen at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 02:58:24 -0000 Subject: Harry and Hermione being siblings... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53594 Kary: What about Harry and Hermione as half siblings? Isn't there hints somewhere in canon (besides Snape - which I wouldn't give a lot of credence to considering the biased bitterness of the source) that James was not always the perfect angel? Maybe he fathered Hermione a little before Harry. We don't know how long Lily and James were married before Harried was begat? (Did I use that word in correct tense?) If that happened and Hermione's mother dies she still could have been raised a muggle by being adopted by the Grangers and all the previous ideas would still work. Maybe he was married before too? We know very little of his and Lily's life, don't we? I only consider this because my husband's adopted and we met his birth mother and father last year and his half sisters. me: I don't think JKR would go the route if infedelity personally. Granted, she has gathered a huge fan base, a lot of it is still kids. I really don't think she would introduce a topic like that into it. Now, I have done my homework. Lily & James were born in 1960. This puts them at Hogwarts in '71. They'd be finished in 78. Considering Harry & all are born in 80, (for example Harry due in July) would have been conceived about Oct 79. (I'm using lexicon's timeline here) Now... We know Hermione's born in Oct. If she is in fact Harry's sister, this would be consistent (no overlapping) because we know it is possible to get pregnant again even a few weeks after delivery. Consider all these siblings 9 months apart IRL. We don't know anyone's due dates, but coming early is always a possibility. Yet, we're assuming all of this in human gestation. If the WW life span is much longer, why couldn't gestation be different too? Calliope wrote (message 53523); Now that "would" be interesting, wouldn't it? So what that they don't have the same birthday. One or the other of their birthdates could be fudged (I say Hermione's.) I think, though, that if they were twins, Hermione would have been hidden at birth, not at the time of Voldemort's defeat. Especially if there were a prophecy that James Potter's child would defeat Voldemort...they'd want them separated as much as possible. me: You know, we don't know if Hermione had been hidden at birth or even THAT DAY. Maybe they had just done that and were placing Harry the next? What if that prophecy said the male child would survive but the female wouldn't? Maybe in the very end, they've both got to be alive & well in order to defeat him for good? Fred: This way, if you are looking for twins born on July 31 and only find one child, who would think of looking for another child born Sept. 19? Me: It doesn't take much to find records at courthouses as long as you've got the birthday/name. I think they could have messed w/ Hermione's bday because otherwise she would've been an easy target. penny: So, let me get this straight, you think that even though Rowling has confirmed a birthdate of Sept 19th for Hermione and July 31st for Harry, she's lying to her fans? me: I don't think she's lying to her fans. She's got to with hold SOME information. She may even have to change some things around as the story progresses. melissa: Hmmm did anyone every figure out what color hair Molly has? me: I thought it was clearly stated as Red. Sen From steinber at inter.net.il Tue Mar 11 10:01:38 2003 From: steinber at inter.net.il (asandhp) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 10:01:38 -0000 Subject: Predictions for OoP/foreshadowings in CoS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53595 First of all, to whoever wrote me offlist asking for all the narrative functionality of PS/SS: I'll happily do it, or some of it, but it might have to wait a few months. Second, to whoever pointed out that Dobby never promised not to save Harry's life, thank you. That's a relief. However, I am still 100% convinced that all the effort that went into weaving Dobby into CoS, where he was completely unnecessary, was done for some extremely plot- critical purpose later on. I still think that the scene "Harry Potter told Dobby never to save his life again," is going to happen. But there may be more. When I first read CoS I believed that Dobby would eventually lead a whole regiment of house-elves against V, and I still think it's possible, especially with 100 house-elves at Hogwarts. Third, I'm still interested in hearing from the Mods or anyone else about what one should do with an idea that seems very likely and also a complete spoiler if it's true. Post it? Sit on it? Post it with a warning? Fourth, re: the bezoar and other Snape's Welcome Speech items: What they all have in common is that they all appear in ordinary Muggle dictionaries with very similar meanings to those given by Snape. Finally, fifth, here are my speculations on OoP: I believe that OoP will not just include romance, but will have a major romantic aspect to the plot - just as the former books were equally fantasy/mystery/ and school story plots, this one will work as a romance plot, as well. Also, I suspect that JKR will do her unique kind of take on the traditional fantasy-romances: Sleeping Beauty, Rapunzel, the Frog Prince, etc, turning them on their sides and letting us see the "inside story." This is the twist I'm betting on: Fleur will end up kidnapped by the DE team and locked in some high tower, where she must be rescued by Our Heroes, joined by Neville, who ends up being the "prince," except that just as Fleur is about to kiss him, Trevor gets in the way and gets the kiss instead. Suddenly, the transfiguration is broken and we seee the "real" Trevor. The problem is that just as Fleur is 1/4 veela, Trevor is only the grandson (grandspawn) of an enchanted prince. The resulting one- quarter-detransfiguration of both of them should be a real treat, and lead on to the "real" ending of the book - just as PoA had a double ending. But I don't presume to guess what that real ending might be. Why do I suspect all this? Well, the logic goes like this: There are only so many standard mystery and fantasy plots, and JK has already used four each in the first four books. Figure like this: Mystery: PP/SS: bank robbery/ burglery CoS: attempted murder PoA: jail break GoF: secret agent/ attempted murder Fantasy: PP/SS: keeping a magic object away from the Dark Lord (a la LOTR) CoS: slaying the dragon PoA: rescuing the innocent from a high tower (prepubescently not a princess) GoF: accomplishing heroic tasks (a la Greek mythology) >From this, one can begin to extrapolate which plots are left and which she might use in the next three books. Book 7 is reserved for the destruction of Evil by Good. So my guess is: OoP: Mystery - kidnapping; Fantasy - saving a real princess from a high tower,etc (see above) Book 6: Mystery - information espionage; Fantasy - reaching the secret source of magical wisdom Of course, you veterans on this list might think up more likely plots for 5 & 6, but the method of extrapolating is, I think, valid. So go for it, guys! I'm waiting happily to see all your talented embroidery on these ideas. And if any of you are familiar with the stock collection of school-story plots and Bildungsroman plots, you might be able to chart the probable plots for 5 and 6 along those lines, too. The Admiring Skeptic From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Mar 11 12:00:28 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 12:00:28 -0000 Subject: Quidditch Cup In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53596 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > I have a problem here with PS/SS: "It was decked out in the > Slytherin colors of green and silver to celebrate Slytherin's > winning the house cup for the seventh year in a row." > > 1991-2 - Gryff wins House Cup (PS/SS) > 1990-1 - 6th year Gryff doesn't win House Cup > 1989-90- 5th > 1988-9 - 4th > 1987-8 - 3rd > 1986-7 - 2nd > 1985-6 - 1st > 1984-5 - presumably Gryff won House Cup. > Why didn't Gryff win the House Cup in 1985-6, when they had the > advantage of having won the Quidditch Cup? Not sure... but I think Slythrins made false challenges and dares to lure Gryffindors into breaking rules, thus losing enough points to lose the House Cup? (At least Malfoy has done this to Harry, but Harry didn't get caught all that often, thanks to invisibility Cloak). Also, there's more than Quidditch to earn points... who knows what has happened during those years? Also, it seems that Bill&Charlie Weasley were bright students and earned house points in class... -- Finwitch From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Mar 11 14:53:32 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 09:53:32 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's age Q: ANSWERED!!!!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53597 In a message dated 3/11/2003 4:37:32 AM Central Standard Time, patricia at obscure.org writes: > Angelina's 6th year: age 16-17 > 5th year: age 15-16 > 4th year: age 14-15 > 3rd year: age 13-14 > 2nd year: age 12-13 > 1st year: age 11-12 > > Ergo, Angelina was 11 when she entered Hogwarts. > I think what's she's saying is that Angelina turned 11 after the term already started. and since her birthday is in Oct she would have had to have been 10 at the start of term. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Mar 11 14:57:07 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 09:57:07 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Hermione being siblings... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53598 In a message dated 3/11/2003 4:52:53 AM Central Standard Time, ultimatesen at aol.com writes: > Penny: > So, let me get this straight, you think that even though Rowling has > confirmed a birthdate of Sept 19th for Hermione and July 31st for > Harry, she's lying to her fans? > > Sen: > I don't think she's lying to her fans. She's got to with hold SOME > information. She may even have to change some things around as the > story progresses. > Me: But she's not withholding the information. She's never been shy or hesitant to say "Whoops. Sorry. Can't reveal that information just yet." She could have also said "Hermione's birthdate? I hadn't given it much thought really" She did neither. She gave a flat answer of Sept 19. Sen: She may even have to change some things around as the story progresses Me: She may very well have to change some things (as I recall she said that OotP wouldn't be as long as GoF) however making Harry and Hermione twins/siblings isn't merely changing things around. She said that she has the entire 7 books planned out and something as major as that would, in my opinion, have to have been part of the initial planning. Not something that occurred to her mid-series. That's why I have no doubts that she meant exactly what she said when she gave Hermione?s birthdate as September 19th and Harry's as July 31st. Melissa [hmm still no takers in the Hermione/Ron are siblings theory. Oh well ;o)] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From suzloua at hotmail.com Tue Mar 11 01:06:02 2003 From: suzloua at hotmail.com (Susan Atherton) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 01:06:02 -0000 Subject: The Owls question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53599 bboy_mn speculated: Pure speculation, but I think the test are general knowledge tests. You get credit for anything you can establish that you have sufficient general knowledge in. For example: We have something called CLEP (I used to know what that stood for) tests. When you enter college, especially if you are an older student, you can take the CLEP tests and 'CLEP out' of specific subject in which you have proven that you already have knowledge. I 'CLEP'ed out of Freshman Biology, which surprised me because I didn't think I knew that much about Biology. So on that one subject I got a free ride. I got the college credits without taking the class or paying the cost. And I respond: Can I first say, it's nice to hear a question on HPfGU I've never heard before? We're so short of unanalysed canon that it's nice when someone comes up with a fresh idea, not just a fresh perspective. Secondly, the question of OWLs. Well, I don't know whether the OWLs and NEWTs are supposed to correspond to GCSEs and A Levels, but having just finished college (ie finished A Levels) I find the question intriguing. The CLEPs that bboy mentions have a similar parallel in the UK - the General Studies exam. This is something you can take at A Level, either in AS or A2 (Advanced Subsiduary or Advanced2; the Curriculum 2000 names for the first and second years) without taking any classes. Basically, you turn up for the exam (you can choose whether or not to be entered for it) and you are tested on one language, GCSE level Maths skills, vocab, creative writing, general knowledge and the like. Actually, one of my group of friends made a bit of a screwup on the general knowledge - when faced with the essay "Do you think the current monarch should be head of the country?" she answered "No, I think the Queen should do it instead." True story, sadly. Ah, our Nic. Anyway, the point is, you can take the whole A Level in one year, instead of two, simply by taking a couple of extracurricular brush-up lessons on your language and maths skills (ie during dinnertime or straight after school, not at weekends or anything) and then taking the exam. Some universities won't count the General Studies A Level to be a proper A Level (you are also required to take at least four to AS, with the option of dropping one for the second year - most people do) and insist on the correct grades for your other three, but some will, and if you screw up on your exam it can be very useful. Of course, the GS exam is only available in A Level, and there's no GCSE equivalent (no classes but credit anyway), so unless Perce took himself some extra subjects in the teacher's spare time and with a lot of reading, I don't really know... of course, OWLs and NEWTs *aren't* GCSEs and A Levels, so I guess we won't know for sure until Hermione takes hers. Susan ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "Help me Jebus!" --Homer Simpson "Shame on you! Ugly baby judges you!" --Ross Geller "Oh yeah, and did I mention I've got a baby?" --Stuart Alan Jones "You know, I telephoned my grandparents the other day, and my grandfather said to me, 'We saw your movie.' 'Which one?' I said, and he shouted, 'Betty, what was the name of that movie I didn't like?'" --Brad Pitt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 11 16:05:54 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 16:05:54 -0000 Subject: Harry and Hermione being siblings... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53600 Sen wrote: >Now, I have done my homework. Lily & James were born in 1960. This >puts them at Hogwarts in '71. They'd be finished in 78. Considering >Harry & all are born in 80, (for example Harry due in July) would >have been conceived about Oct 79. (I'm using lexicon's timeline >here) Now... We know Hermione's born in Oct. If she is in fact >Harry's sister, this would be consistent (no overlapping) because >we know it is possible to get pregnant again even a few weeks after >delivery. Consider all these siblings 9 months apart IRL. We don't >know anyone's due dates, but coming early is always a possibility. Has anyone ever taken into consideration that Harry is premature. Aren't premature children smaller than others throughout their life? Being that Harry is small could mean he was a premature baby. Mabye Lily was so stressed about the whole Voldemort thing she caused herself to give birth earlier than expected. Greicy From patricia at obscure.org Tue Mar 11 15:08:22 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 10:08:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's age Q: ANSWERED!!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53601 On Tue, 11 Mar 2003 Meliss9900 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/11/2003 4:37:32 AM Central Standard Time, > patricia at obscure.org writes: > > > Angelina's 6th year: age 16-17 > > 5th year: age 15-16 > > 4th year: age 14-15 > > 3rd year: age 13-14 > > 2nd year: age 12-13 > > 1st year: age 11-12 > > > > Ergo, Angelina was 11 when she entered Hogwarts. > > > > I think what's she's saying is that Angelina turned 11 after the term already > started. and since her birthday is in Oct she would have had to have been 10 > at the start of term. Yes, that is what she seems to be saying, but it's not correct. As the chart above shows, if Angelina turned 17 in her sixth year (which we know is true from GoF) then she had to turn 12 (not turn 11) in her first year. Angelina was *not* 10 at the start of her first term. The math in the original post was simply wrong. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From seventhsqueal at yahoo.com Tue Mar 11 15:21:59 2003 From: seventhsqueal at yahoo.com (SeventhSqueal) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 07:21:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What motivated Dobby in CoS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030311152159.93306.qmail@web10706.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53602 >From 7thSqueal's request for ideas... What motivates Dobby in CoS to prevent HP from going to Hogwarts? Three: Add your idea here. bboy_mn: Perhaps it is a simple as this- Everybody needs a hero. Everybody needs hope. (little snip) Sometime heroes are the only thing that give us the strength to carry on. DOBBY: "Ah, if HArry Potter only knew! If he knew what he means to us, to the low, the enslaved,.(snipped)...Harry Potter shone like a beacon of hope for those of us who thought the dark days would never end, sir...." (snip) Then he hears a plot, (snip) It took a monumental effort for Dobby to go against his very nature, and attempt to save his hero, his beacon of hope. I'll take a living hero over a dead martyr any day, and I think Dobby would too. 7thSqueal snaps her fingers in appreciation like a beatnik then scrounges in her pocket retrieving $1.37 in change and puts it in bboy_mn's House Elf Liberation Front can and responds: Very nice. You suggest that we take Dobby at face value. He's the house elf equivalent of a misfit social visionary. O.K. This still bothers me, though, because this makes him such a behavioral mutant. His own house elf comrades treat him like a St. Mungoloid and social pariah for seeking fulfilment outside of the traditional house elf status quo. What makes Dobby so anomalous, such a social freak? Can he be Polyjuice!Dobby? If so who is he? ===== ~SeventhSqueal There's no earthly way of knowing / Which direction we are going / There's no knowing where we're rowing / Or which way the river's flowing / Is it raining? / Is it snowing? / Is a hurricane a-blowing? / Not a speck of light is showing / So the danger must be growing / Are the fires of hell a-glowing? / Is the grisly reaper mowing? / Yes, the danger must be growing / 'Cause the rowers keep on rowing / And they're certainly not showing / Any signs that they are slowing! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com From patricia at obscure.org Tue Mar 11 15:26:30 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 10:26:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Goblins, Gringotts, and Flitwick In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53603 On Tue, 11 Mar 2003, ladycrookshanks wrote: > This is a 3 part theory. Bear with me. ^_^ > > Part 1: Hagrid is abnormally large, and we discovered that it was > because he is half Giant. So who is the other wizard of abnormal > size? Flitwick. And in the movies he is played by the same actor who > plays a Goblin - could this be a clue? Could Flitwick be part Goblin? Could be. Or he could be part house elf. Or he could just be a little person like the actor who plays him. We don't really have enough evidence to conclude anything, but since JKR makes a point of mentioning Flitwick's height repeatedly, I believe it will wind up being important somehow by the end of book 7. > Part 2: We know so much about the Goblins and Gringotts, yet they > have not played a very important role yet. Hagrid tells Harry that > Gringotts is the safest place in the world next to Hogwarts. We know > that the vaults stretch for miles beneath London, and that there are > a lot of nasty creatures guarding them (including dragons). The > Goblin Liaison Office is mentioned briefly in Goblet of Fire, and we > are told that Cuthbert Mockridge leads this department. One of the > few historical events we hear anything about from professor Binns is > the Goblin Rebellions. And finally, we know Bill Weasley works for > Gringotts, and so far, he has probably had the fewest appearances out > of the Weasleys. So are the Goblins, and Gringotts, going to be > taking on more important roles later on? I absolutely believe so. I can't believe JKR would bring up those Goblin Rebellions so frequently if they weren't really, really important. One thing they point out is that goblins won't stand for anybody else telling them what to do. That makes them difficult allies, but it seems to me it would make them even less likely to support Voldemort in the long run since the Dark Lord wants to subjegate just about everybody. The goblins are a bit of a wild card. > Part 3: Assuming the above two theories work, what does that mean? If > Flitwick is indeed part Goblin, that means that Hogwarts has ties to > the Goblins as well as the Giants. Goblins would make formidable > allies. However, if they side with Voldemort (as Goblins seem to be > less interested in what is right than what they can get out of the > situation), could Flitwick be helpful in the fight against them, or > possibly, for whatever reason, in helping to guide the good guys > through the vast underground system that is Gringotts? If Flitwick is part goblin, it could wind up being useful. However, goblins don't seem like terribly loyal types and might not be any more receptive to him because of his heritage. Who knows how it would play out? In occurs to me, though, that Flitwick is actually more like a house elf than a goblin. He's very enthusiastic, very sensitive and very helpful, none of which seem to be goblin traits. I rather hope he's not part house elf because for some reason I find the idea of humans mating with house elves squickier than humans mating with goblins, but it does seem the likelier possibility. > (Part 4: Am I insanely overanalytical?) Isn't that what this list is for? ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From heidit at netbox.com Tue Mar 11 16:33:55 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 11:33:55 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Hermione being siblings... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00f901c2e7ec$03ad43a0$9865fea9@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 53604 Grace wrote: > > Has anyone ever taken into consideration that Harry is premature. > Aren't premature children smaller than others throughout their > life? Being that Harry is small could mean he was a premature > baby. Mabye Lily was so stressed about the whole Voldemort thing > she caused herself to give birth earlier than expected. Now we have to get into the whole question of Muggle abilities back in 1980 vs what witches & wizards would be expected to do. Even now, a baby born between 25 and 32 weeks is in serious danger of not making it - the lungs are insufficiently developed to enable the baby to breathe on its own, and the baby will *always* require help in the early months of life, until his physical structure is capable of supporting him. And in 1980, a Muggle baby born that premature (i.e. in the two-pound range) would have a very slim chance of surviving. Now, it's possible that witches & wizards had ways of taking care of premature babies that would've allowed a two-pounder to survive and thrive, but it's more likely that any medimagical advancements they had would've been geared towards keeping the baby in utero longer, as that's the best and safest place for survival before, say, 34 weeks. After 34 weeks, in 1980 as now, the dangers are minimized, and a fetus is considered term at 36-37 weeks (depends on the doctor), so that wouldn't even be deemed premature. I don't think it's proper to make a correlation between Harry's height and any potential of prematurity - I'm sure that studies would show that a child who's been almost-malnourished, as Harry was by the Dursleys, is at more of a risk of stunted growth than a child who was simply born a few weeks early. Accordingly, I think that we can't presume that Harry was born more than 6-8 weeks early, simply because the chances of survival at that size and gestational age would simply be too scanty and it would've been very, very unusual in the Muggle world, and unlikely in the wizarding world for the baby to be born, versus magic used to keep the baby inside. Of *course* it's physically possible for a mother to give birth twice in a twelve month period. It's just dangerous and unusual, given the physiology of a woman in the months after she's given birth, and were Lily nursing, it would have been virtually impossible without magical intervention. Heidi, who is currently at 30 weeks From sevothtarte at gmx.net Tue Mar 11 17:35:50 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 18:35:50 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dark Magic In-Reply-To: <000a01c2e733$71baa180$bb4d6551@f3b7j4> Message-ID: <8NROUOWSX8331A62TNUP1UYVA8Y.3e6e1e76@tk> No: HPFGUIDX 53605 Ffred: >Frankly I can't see any positive purpose in the cruciatus, but the imperius >could certainly be used for defensive as well as hostile purposes (suppose a >wizard was being attacked by a group of muggles, for example) There are peaceful/helpful uses for Imperio, too... Preventing a panic, allowing someone to overcome hysteria or fear (of heights, water, whatever) in dangerous situations, especially since it enables the 'victim' to perform extraordinary physical tasks - "Imperio! You will make that dangerous jump from the window of the burning building even though you're panicking and afraid of heights, and you will land perfectly without harming yourself", something like this. Of course, there's always the question wether another spell might have solved the situation just as well. -Torsten From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Tue Mar 11 17:57:52 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea Moggach) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 12:57:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Concerns for Harry's Well-Being In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030311175752.71975.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53606 grace701 wrote: >Has anyone ever taken into consideration that Harry is premature. >Aren't premature children smaller than others throughout their >life? Being that Harry is small could mean he was a premature >baby. Mabye Lily was so stressed about the whole Voldemort thing >she caused herself to give birth earlier than expected. Being pre-mature is one thought on the issue of Harry being small. Although there are pre-mature babies who who catch up with their internal growth clocks and end up being 6' tall or whatever. However, there is also the fact that the Dursleys seemed to take great pleasure in feeding Harry less than his cousin Dudley (no wonder Dudley got so big - he was no doubt eating Harry's portions too!). The Dursleys were responsible for Harry's diet since he was only a year old, which is when a child/baby certainly needs lots of nourishment. The Dursleys greatest punishment seemed to be locking him away and not feeding him. I know that Dumbledore had made it very safe for Harry to be at 4 Privet Dr, but it has always bothered me that for someone who always knows where Harry is (ie the delivery of Harry's Hogwart letters), why did he condone child abuse or neglect, however you want to word it. It's as if Dumbledore was able to make it safe for Harry from the OUTSIDE, but not from the INDSIDE (meaning the Dursleys). Why is it so important that Harry live with "family"? Wouldn't it be better if he lived somewhere where he was loved and didn't have to suffer at the hands of his cousin's bullying and his aunt & uncle's obvious disdain. We know that Dumbledore has made mistakes, why can't he just admit that it was possibly a mistake to leave Harry with the Dursleys and set him in a SAFE and LOVING environment? And if Dumbledore really does the know whole situation, he'd know that the Dursleys would give up Harry in a heartbeat if someone wanted to "take him off their hands", so to speak. Or did Dumbledore consider Harry's treatment to be good training for what would obviously be ahead in life for him (ie bullied by Draco Malfoy and the return of Voldemort)? Maybe Harry wouldn't have been able to handle those situations as well if he'd been pampered early in life. I don't know, I just know that the treatment he received from the Dursleys has always bothered me hugely. I apologize if this has been discussed before - being fairly new to this Board, it's possible I have missed prior discussion on this topic. But it has always bothered me and I thank you for letting me air my thoughts on the situation. Lea :) Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250; ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gandharvika at hotmail.com Tue Mar 11 18:58:29 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 18:58:29 +0000 Subject: (FLIK) Second Hand Ron Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53607 Second Hand Ron (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Second Hand Rose_ from the musical _Funny Girl_) Dedicated to CMC...when I started this filk, I somehow thought it was Sondheim, but it's not. Shoot! Oh, well... Listen to a Midi here: http://www.rienzihills.com/SING/secondhandrose.htm Ron: My family is a large one, an awful lot of us When we go out shopping, it's always quite a fuss Have to buy our stuff down at the old junk store Anything that is new we simply can't afford It's no wonder that I feel so blue I do not own a thing that ain't been used I'm reading second hand books I have a second hand wand That's why they call me Second hand Ron Everything I own is simply rubbish I hate that our family's so impoverished Second hand broom Stay in a second hand room I never get a single thing that's new Even my rat Scabbers, he's the pet that I've got He once belonged to Percy, and he dosen't do squat! It's really not very fun being just Second hand Ron Playin' second fiddle! Playin' second fiddle! (Repeat one more time) -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From urbana at charter.net Tue Mar 11 18:59:11 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 18:59:11 -0000 Subject: Concerns for Harry's Well-Being In-Reply-To: <20030311175752.71975.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53608 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lea Moggach wrote: > Or did Dumbledore consider Harry's treatment to be good training for what would obviously be ahead in life for him (ie bullied by Draco Malfoy and the return of Voldemort)? Maybe Harry wouldn't have been able to handle those situations as well if he'd been pampered early in life. I don't know, I just know that the treatment he received from the Dursleys has always bothered me hugely.<< This was discussed within the past 2-3 months (sorry, I'm at work finishing my lunch, no time to dig through the archives). As I recall, the general feeling was that there were some strategic reasons why Dumbledore left Harry with the Dursleys: * What doesn't kill you makes you stronger -- living with the Dursleys for almost 10 years made Harry touigher, more self-reliant, and possibly more introspective than if he'd lived with people who treated him in a more loving way. He might actually be *too* self-reliant sometimes, but now he at least has Ron & Hermione to help him figure things out re: Voldemort and other baddies. * Somehow, being with blood relatives may have offered him more protection against LV than if he'd lived with non-relatives. * The fact that Harry was living in the midst of lots of Muggles, rather than in a community full of wizards, might have made it harder for LV to find him, and/or or easier for DD to set up magical wards around the Dursleys' house to protect Harry. Not to mention we suspect at least one witch or wizard was placed in the vicinity to help keep an eye on him (the Mrs. Figg theory). * The Dursleys, for whatever reason (perhaps we will find out in OoP), seem to have a pathological fear of all things magical. They refused to tell Harry not only the truth about his parents, but also the truth about him being a wizard. So Harry spent 10 years completely unaware of both his own fame within the wizarding world and the reasons for his unusual abilities. Dumbledore, knowing that Harry would eventually have to face Voldemort again (and again, and again), may have thought it was better for Harry NOT to grow up being fawned over as "The Boy Who Lived". (viz. the reaction of various wizards he runs into during his childhood, e.g. the man in the green cloak who bows to him in the bakery). I hope that's a reasonable summary of the discussion we had on this list a few weeks (or maybe it was months?) ago. At least it happened since Thanksgiving 2002, which is when I started reading this list. If anyone else remembers any conflicting (or more cogent) reasons, I'm sure they'll let us know :-) Anne U (who has Faith that JKR will reveal at least a little more on 6/21/03) From lynntownsend100 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 11 18:59:16 2003 From: lynntownsend100 at yahoo.com (Lynn) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 18:59:16 -0000 Subject: Why do a lot of people think Hagrid's going 2 B the one who "Snuffs it"? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53609 Maybe I'm a bit out of the loop here, but when I was looking over the polls about who everyone thinks JK Rowling is going to kill off, I was shocked at the "good"(For want of a better word) Hagrid got. I have just one question: Why him? -Lynn T From rvotaw at i-55.com Tue Mar 11 19:20:16 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 13:20:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why do a lot of people think Hagrid's going 2 B the one who "Snuffs it"? Message-ID: <6823455.1047410416219.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53610 Lynn T wrote: > Maybe I'm a bit out of the loop here, but when I was looking
> over the polls about who everyone thinks JK Rowling is going
> to kill off, I was shocked at the "good"(For want of a better
> word) Hagrid got. I have just one question: Why him?
Well, there are a number of reasons, I'll list a few here: 1) Somewhere, someplace we seem to remember (yet can't seem to find it!) JKR saying it would be a fan of Harry's. Hagrid qualifies there. 2) JKR did say (and we can find it!) that the death in OotP was difficult to write. Yes, that could be anyone, but Harry's perspective on Hagrid would make it really hard, as he was his introduction into the wizarding world. 3) In a way Hagrid may have outlived his usefulness to the plot. Compared to the other characters, we know so much more about his background. We know why he was expelled, that he's half giant, orphaned as a boy, and so on. I could easily imagine that Hagrid completes his mission to the giants and is killed during or shortly thereafter. 4)Robbie Coltrane was asked once if he was signed up for all seven movies like Richard Harris was, his response was "sort of." Said he'd signed up for the first five. Hmm. And I'm sure there are more reasons I'm not thinking of at the moment. :) Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dorigen at hotmail.com Tue Mar 11 19:33:24 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 19:33:24 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwarts Teacher Neville Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53611 >Well, I'm just going to take a guess at it for fun's sake and say Neville. >In my mind, Hermione's also out of the running because she's "the one you >think" in my mind. And Harry and Ron are out. And Neville's certainly not >the kind you would think of (although you know the saying: those you cannot >do, teach). It gets better. I completely agree that it's probably Neville. So what would he be teaching? I can think of three possibilities: 1) Herbology, because we already know he has a strong affinity for it. 2) Potions. Now, before you laugh yourself into apoplexy, consider that you probably need at least a working knowledge of herbology to be any good at Potions; that Snape may well both want and need a successor and believe that Neville ought to be that successor; and that if Neville *did* teach Potions, he'd probably be a really good teacher -- understanding the weaknesses of his students from personal experience -- even if he wasn't as good at the actual subject as Snape. 3) Defense Against the Dark Arts. If he's as potentially powerful as many people suspect, he'll be a natural talent. And he'll have the incentive to avenge what was done to his parents. I just hope it's not Transfiguration. It's getting so you can't walk around at Hogwarts without tripping over an Animagus. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From julia at thequiltbug.com Tue Mar 11 19:44:28 2003 From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 11:44:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwarts Teacher Neville Message-ID: <20030311114428.11920.h008.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53612 "Janet Anderson" wrote: > 2) Potions. Now, before you laugh yourself into apoplexy, consider that you > probably need at least a working knowledge of herbology to be any good at > Potions; that Snape may well both want and need a successor and believe that > Neville ought to be that successor; and that if Neville *did* teach Potions, > he'd probably be a really good teacher -- understanding the weaknesses of > his students from personal experience -- even if he wasn't as good at the > actual subject as Snape. > My personal feeling is that if Snape weren't so darn NASTY to Neville all the time, he might be able to do fairly well. Nowhere does canon say Neville is stupid, just very easily flustered, which Snape does to him with just a look. When he has good and kind teachers like Sprout and Lupin (who don't baby him, IMO, just treat him decently) he does well. Understanding the weaknesses of students is very important to being a good teacher. I had problems with some of my musical subjects while in college studying to be a music teacher, and my private flute instructor told me that I would probably be a great teacher, because I would have a thorough understanding of what causes mistakes and would be able to correct them. Often when I help my kids I think of the way I used to do it wrong, and how I had to fix it, and more often than not it works! People who are brilliant and always right "because they just *know* how to do it" often make horrible teachers. ::coughSnapecough:: I would LOVE to see Neville come into his own and be either an awesome teacher or have an important position in the Ministry of Magic (and I'd love to see him get revenge on the people who tortured his parents as well...). There is something about Neville that I just love and want to root for! Calliope http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/ http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 11 19:54:58 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 19:54:58 -0000 Subject: What motivated Dobby in CoS? In-Reply-To: <20030311152159.93306.qmail@web10706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53613 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SeventhSqueal wrote: > From 7thSqueal's request for ideas... > What motivates Dobby in CoS to prevent HP from going > to Hogwarts? > Three: Add your idea here. > > bboy_mn: > > Perhaps it is a simple as this- > Everybody needs a hero. > Everybody needs hope. > (little snip) > Sometime heroes are the only thing that give us the > strength to carry on. > > ...edited.. > It took a monumental effort for Dobby to go > against his very nature, and attempt to save his hero, > his beacon of hope. > > I'll take a living hero over a dead martyr any day, > and I think Dobby would too. > > 7thSqueal: > ...edited... > > Very nice. You suggest that we take Dobby at face > value. He's the house elf equivalent of a misfit > social visionary. O.K. > This still bothers me, though, because this makes him > such a behavioral mutant. ...edited... > > > ===== > ~SeventhSqueal bboy_mn: What makes Dobby such a misfit social visionary; such a behavioral mutant? House-elves want to DO, Dobby wants to BE. Yes, I think we do take Dobby at face value, BUT just like Neville, I think there is A WHOLE LOT MORE to the face of Dobby than we currently see. House-elves are happy when there is work to be done and Masters to serve. And Dobby too, is happy to be doing his work and to be serving his masters, but it's not enough. More than wanting to be doing his work, he wants to be; to be Dobby. As with all great men, mediocrity is a stiffling depressing existance. I can see Dobby getting very depressed working for the Malfoys, not so much because of the abuse, because elves seem to be conditioned to accept that, but because he could never achieve excellence. He could never realize himself. He could never satisfy his own conscience. Dobby has the potential to be so much more than a common house-elf, and I think before this series is over, we will see that Dobby is the most UNcommon house-elf who ever lived. Great things in life are accomplished not by men who did it the same, but by uncommon house-elves who dared to do it different. I think the two most significant, VERY significant, unrealized characters in this story are Dobby and Neville. They are both in the background, but at the sametime, they are way to far into the foreground to not be of major importants to the final resolution of the story. I could very easily see the final defeat comming not from Harry but from Dobby and/or Neville. In almost every case, Harry succeeds in defeating and/or escaping his most immediate threat by receiving outside help. Couldn't have gotten to the Stone without Hermione and Ron's help. Could have defeated the Basilisk without Fawkes and the Sorting Hat. Couldn't have survived the Dementor without Lupin. Couldn't have saved Sirius without Hermione and the time turner. Couldn't have escaped Voldemort if it hadn't been for a shared component in their wands which allowed Harry's parents to come and delay Voldemort while Harry ran for the portkey. Seems to be a theme here. As great and powerfully magical a wizard as Harry is, his greatest strength is in his allies. His greatest strength is in the people who love him. So, I'm patiently waiting for Dobby and/or Neville to jump in and save the day, and maybe even save the world. Just a thought. bboy_mn From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue Mar 11 19:07:49 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 19:07:49 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Goblins References: <1047389295.2484.72352.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003e01c2e801$824eaa40$bb4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 53614 Ladycrookshanks wrote: >Goblin Liaison Office is mentioned briefly in Goblet of Fire, and we >are told that Cuthbert Mockridge leads this department. One of the >few historical events we hear anything about from professor Binns is >the Goblin Rebellions. And finally, we know Bill Weasley works for >Gringotts, and so far, he has probably had the fewest appearances out >of the Weasleys. So are the Goblins, and Gringotts, going to be >taking on more important roles later on? The other interesting point is that the pub in Hogsmeade was used as a headquarters during the Goblin Rebellions. Which suggests that if there isn't a goblin settlement nearby now, there probably was in the past (Like so many others, I fell asleep in Professor Binns's lecture on the subject...) But I agree with you that there is a lot we don't know about goblin history. My suspicion is that they have had a parallel history to that of humans, and may well have had to deal with the WW and its doings irrespective of who has been in power (and I think that there have been differences in the WW regime over the centuries, more or less liberal or authoritarian, or even influenced by one or the other magical path). So they are (IMO) quite happy to stay neutral in the WW's power struggles (and expect the WW to stay out of theirs). Powerful allies if you can get them though I would have thought cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue Mar 11 21:24:50 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 21:24:50 -0000 Subject: Take This Eye and Shut It (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53615 Take This Eye and Shut It (PoA, Chap. 15) To the tune of Take This Job and Shove It by Johnny Paycheck Dedicated to Lilac THE SCENE: Divination Class. A stressed-out HERMIONE has finally had enough of TRELAWNEY'S pretensions and stages a noisy walk-out HERMIONE Take this Eye and shut it, I ain't learnin' nothing here. You're just an old fraud, An' you're wastin' my time actin' like a seer Your tea leaves had better leave me alone As I'm a walkin' off your course. Take this Eye and shut it, Divination, it's divorce. TRELAWNEY I've been Seein' with this faculty, Gazing on the arcane All this time, I've seen no student, With a mind that's more mundane. An' I've seen a lot of omens of flame Read palms along the way Knew one of us'd be leavin' for good, And we would all hear her say: HERMIONE & TRELAWNEY "Take this Eye and shut it, I/You ain't learnin' nothing here. You're/I'm just/not an old fraud, An' you're wastin' my time actin' like a seer/learnin' arts of seers Your/My tea leaves had better/are gonna leave me/you alone As I'm/you're a walkin' off your/my course. Take this Eye and shut it, Divination, it's divorce." (Exit HERMIONE, as RON and HARRY regard her with renewed admiration and respect.) RON & HARRY Well, that Sibyll, she's a-spyin' Grim dogs Each day we come to school. She's a flamin' flat-out fruitcake Down to her smallest jewel Hermione has really blown her top Told Sibyll to "make her day" As when Herm's slapping Malfoy faces, Wish we'd the Crystal Balls to say: "Take this Eye and shut it, I ain't learnin' nothing here. You're just an old fraud, An' you're wastin' my time actin' like a seer Your tea leaves had better leave me alone As I'm a walkin' off your course. Take this Eye and shut it, Divination, it's divorce." - CMC (hey, they can't all be Sondheim) HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Tue Mar 11 23:48:32 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:48:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Quidditch as Metaphor (sans) Triwizard Champions&Houses/Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030311234832.75363.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53616 Yours truly: > > Though I'd put my money on this > > metaphor to work on both levels, I > > agree that just catching Peter would > > be poor climax. Maybe Peter will turn > > out to have more to him... > > > > Y'know, it would be interesting if > > Peter undergoes such a personal > > transformation that his animagus form > > changes, say, to a Golden Snidget, the > > precursor to the Golden Snitch. > > > > How's that for redemption? Finwitch: > Well, though Peter's not Snitch > in "defeat Voldemort", he IS the > Snitch in "Redeem Sirius Black". > After all, the battle to clear his > reputation will not end unless > Peter is caught, and Peter's capture > WOULD give Sirius' reputation > somewhat clearing, much as the Snitch > gives lots of score. Oh yes you've fingered yet another layer to this metaphor! Finwitch: > But I do like Peter taking the form > of a Snidget instead of a rat! > After all, Snidget is a protected > species and Harry has protected > Peter... of course, it makes capturing > and keeping him that much more > difficult. A rat you can keep from > transforming with a snake, and > Harry being Parselmouth, that's not > even difficult for him... All he > needs is to learn the Serpensortia-spell > and tell the snake to watch Peter... > > Of course, if they catch Peter during > OoP, get Sirius free and clear > (I assume that Sirius and Snape > settling their differences plays a > part here), then Pettigrew can frame > his death, be 'reborn' as > Snidget-animagus and fly to freedom > unnoticed AND ends up saving Harry... Hmm...this isn't quite what I meant - let me clarify. My suggestion is that Peter's animagus form should change to reflect a profound change in Peter the person, if such a change should occur. While he's still rat-like in nature, Peter's animagus form should reflect his nature and remain a rat. The personal transformation that I mentioned above would have to be a very big one to justify an equally big change in his animagus form. Any change in the animagus form is likely to be an involuntary one since a wizard/witch does not pick his/her animagus form in the first place. I picked the 'Golden Snidget' because when I first read QttA it occurred to me that it's a very innocent-sounding prior form of the not-so-innocent-sounding name 'Golden Snitch.' A way this could figure into the story is as a method of gauging Peter's trustworthiness, if that becomes an issue. IF Peter does turn from the Dark Side and when one has a history of betrayals as Peter does, how can he 'prove' the truth of his reform but through a process that he has no conscious control over? Animagus transformation as lie-detector... sort of. Interestingly enough, another animal form that 'chooses' the wizard as opposed to the wizard choosing it is the Patronus. It would be interesting to me if we find later that both these forms change if a wizard/witch undergoes a drastic change to his/her psyche. Petra, fan of Pullman's daemon idea a n :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 12 01:44:03 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 01:44:03 -0000 Subject: Harry's wellbeing and possible sister In-Reply-To: <00f901c2e7ec$03ad43a0$9865fea9@Frodo> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53617 Grace wrote: >Has anyone ever taken into consideration that Harry is premature. >Aren't premature children smaller than others throughout their >life? Being that Harry is small could mean he was a premature >baby. Maybe Lily was so stressed about the whole Voldemort thing >she caused herself to give birth earlier than expected. Well honestly, to give a rather boring opinion on Harry's size, I just always thought him small. He is perfectly proportioned. No one gapes and stares in the alls at his physical stature as it is sub par. He is just smaller than most guys. Nothing big. Nothing to even make fun of it seems. I mean, Draco does not obsess over Harry's height. Well, Draco is not that big either.... In my family, both my brother and I were born small and born on time. We then proceeded to be the runts in our class. Skinny little things too. Scrawny is a better term. Worked well for gymnastics, but I digress. Now, we were well fed, we got plenty of sun and exercise, and lots of love from our parents, so don't think bad things on my parents as to why we were small. We just were. So then, we continued to be small and develop slowly. As for me, I am by no means tall now, but I am not short either. As for my brother, who really should matter more here since we are discussing Harry, he literally grew like nine inches over one year. It was impossible for my parents to keep him in shoes. So when he graduated from high school, he was one of the tallest in his class. We are both still skinny, but not as scrawny. Now the HP point here...this is how I always pictured Harry. A slow developer. He was born small. His childhood was spent small. But once puberty hits, which *was* later than most in mine and my brother's small sized childhood, then he will sprout tall. Now, I know this did not help y'all figure out if Harry and Hermione could be brother and sister, or even if he could have been born premature, so let me move on. Heidi wrote: >>Of *course* it's physically possible for a mother to give birth >>twice in a twelve month period. It's just dangerous and unusual, >>given the physiology of a woman in the months after she's given >>birth, and were Lily nursing, it would have been virtually >>impossible without magical intervention. Well. Actually. My best friend from high school just accomplished that feat last year. By accident, I assure you. Quite a shock to her and her husband in fact. But funny thing is, she is not that healthy. She has lupus, so her pregnancies are high risk, and yet she managed to have two perfect, healthy full term baby girls within 11 months of each other. Maybe my life has these rare events in them, but I think it can happen if you are...exposed to the conditions at the right time. So it is possible. Less probable. But if conditions are met, it can happen. Even in this muggle world. Melody From susannahlm at yahoo.com Wed Mar 12 02:26:45 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 02:26:45 -0000 Subject: Harry and Hermione Siblings? How It Might Be Done! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53618 Taryn asked: >Actually, don't females have a few months after a birth when they >can't become pregnant? Unless Diana Gabaldon has led me astray in >her novels! ;) >Correct me if I'm wrong, though. and Mark wrote: >I've got a question about Hermione possibly aging at an increased >rate 3rd year from use of the time turner. A-*HA*! The answer! Lily had a Time-Turner, which she was using for. . . . . . well, some reason or other, after Hermione's birth. She used it so frequently that she managed to "age herself"--note, terminology is tricky here--about a year in the less than ten months before Harry's birth! Derannimer (who apologizes to Penny for participating in this lunacy, but who would like to note that her theory *is* an interesting one) From thorn360 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 12 02:28:39 2003 From: thorn360 at yahoo.com (dimercury7) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 02:28:39 -0000 Subject: Rowling and Philosophy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53619 Hello everybody... I'm a college student at FU (Fordham University in NYC but we all just like to call it FU to irk the Jesuits who hate being known as FU) Anyways... I'm a philosophy major, and one of my particular concentrations is philosophy and literature... At the moment I'm taking a verrrry intresting class on the Lord of the Ring trilogy and Philosophy ( http://www.fordham.edu/prospective/Whats_New/Course_Uses_Lord_of_9952. html ) ... tres interesting - we've covered everything from the nature of evil to free will to philosophy of ecology. (and trust me - there is all sorts of information on LoTR out there especially from the 60's... more contemporary a new book on Tolkien and philosophy will be published soon from the same folks who brought you the philosophy books on the Matrix, Simposons and Seinfeld)... In that vein, I was wondering if anyone else is interested in the philosophy that can be seen in and/or explained by the HP series. There is soooo much to go in to, such as whether or not V is the ultimate evil in the world, or is he just a representation of the ultimate failings of mortals (ala Plato)... mmmm - stuff like this makes my philosophic mouth water... anyway, I can and most definatly want to wax eloquently on such topics if anyones out there wants to hear them, and I especially would love it if anyone else out there has such theories.... From psychomaverick at hotmail.com Wed Mar 12 03:29:07 2003 From: psychomaverick at hotmail.com (psychodudeneo) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 03:29:07 -0000 Subject: The Useless Animagus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53620 Something's been annoying me. Wizards aren't allowed to choose their Animagus form, although one would hardly be able to tell this from the books. Every Animagus we've seen so far has been perfectly adapted to that wizard's needs. Prongs and Padfoot were strong enough to keep Moony in line, with Wormtail useful for things such as deactivating the whomping willow. Minerva's cat form is ideal for sneaking around Muggle areas unnoticed. Rita's bug form was perfect for her spy routine. To drive the point home, I hope that we finally see a long- awaited "Absolutely Useless Animags". I'm talking about an animal for completely and utterly unfit for whatever the Wizard had been planning on doing. For instance, an assasin who has the ability to become a 3 ton male rhinoceros. A mountaineer who becomes 570 pounds of sea lion. A fierce criminal who becomes a dodo. That sort of thing. Just validation that the animagus magic doesn't always work out as planned. "Who killed this man?" "I think I saw a rhino hiding behind that shrub, but I can't be sure. It may have been a fat unicorn." "psychodudeneo" From psychomaverick at hotmail.com Wed Mar 12 03:18:59 2003 From: psychomaverick at hotmail.com (psychodudeneo) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 03:18:59 -0000 Subject: Rowling and Philosophy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53621 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, dimercury7 wrote: "There is soooo much to go in to, such as whether or not V is the ultimate evil in the world, or is he just a representation of the ultimate failings of mortals (ala Plato)..." It's driven into our heads again and again that Voldemort isn't human. First, we learn that he's probably not human because he survived the reflected AK. Then when he kills the Unicorn, we're told that doing something like that causes one to lose humanity. Even when restored to a body, Voldemort no longer looks human. JK really drives it into us. With that in mind, I think it's unlikely that Voldemort is a representation of anything in mortal man, or how they would act. "psychodudeneo" From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Mar 12 04:26:46 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 04:26:46 -0000 Subject: Rowling and Philosophy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53622 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychodudeneo" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, dimercury7 > wrote: > "There is soooo much to go in to, such as whether or not V is the > ultimate evil in the world, or is he just a representation of the > ultimate failings of mortals (ala Plato)..." > > It's driven into our heads again and again that Voldemort isn't > human. First, we learn that he's probably not human because he > survived the reflected AK. Then when he kills the Unicorn, we're told > that doing something like that causes one to lose humanity. Even > when restored to a body, Voldemort no longer looks human. JK really > drives it into us. > > With that in mind, I think it's unlikely that Voldemort is a > representation of anything in mortal man, or how they would act. > > "psychodudeneo" But Tom Riddle began as fully human - Being Lord Voldemort was a gradual but conscious process of renouncing his humanity, getting in touch with his inner Reptilian brain. So, yes, this is a representation of what mortal men undergo when they renounce goodness and avidly pursue the diabolic. - CMC He who would act the angel needs must act the beast. - Pascal, Pensees From pretty_feet51 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 12 04:41:49 2003 From: pretty_feet51 at yahoo.com (Risti) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 04:41:49 -0000 Subject: Goblins, Gringotts, and Flitwick In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53623 A couple of points to add, I can't think well enough to form them into a theory, but they came to mind. First of all, in COS, Ron says that he's heard Flitwick was an expert Dualer in his youth. Considering he's the charms professor, this is highly likely. He may teach the good, but he most likely knows the bad. Second, I see Gringott's as being quite atonomous from the Ministry, and I think that they wouldn't have to default to siding with the Ministry if it came down to it. Why do I say this? Sirius Black was able to withdraw gold from the bank, and no one ever knew about it. Maybe he paid a little extra to shut some mouthes, but I see Gringotts as being very much 'looking out for #1'. It's like Bill said, they don't care what his hair looks like, as long as he finds them gold. Their only interest is in advancing their own business, not putting any stock in the political concerns around them. I say they'd side with which ever side could offer them more personally. Very Slytherin like of them, in that regard. That said, Flitwick is head of Ravenclaw, isn't he? ~Risti From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Mar 12 04:54:03 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 04:54:03 -0000 Subject: The Useless Animagus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53624 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychodudeneo" wrote: > Something's been annoying me. Wizards aren't allowed to choose their > Animagus form, although one would hardly be able to tell this from > the books. > > Every Animagus we've seen so far has been perfectly adapted to that > wizard's needs. Let us consider this passage from GoF, Chap. 26, when the Trio are desparately searching for a way for Harry to breathe underwater. As is usually the case when one is exhausted, one's worst character traits come to the fore: in Hermione's case, her pedantry: "I know what I should have done," said Harry, resting, face-down, on Saucy Tricks for Tricky Sorts. "I should've learned to be an Animagus like Sirius." An Animagus was a wizard who could transform into an animal. "Yeah, you could've turned into a goldfish any time you wanted!" said Ron. "Or a frog," yawned Harry. He was exhausted. "It takes years to become an Animagus, and then you have to register yourself and everything," said Hermione vaguely, now squinting down the index of Weird Wizarding Dilemmas & Their Solutions. "Professor McGonagall told us, remember... you've got to register yourself with the Improper Use of Magic Office ...what animal you become, and your markings, so you can't abuse it " "Hermione, I was joking," said Harry wearily. "I know I haven't got a chance of turning into a frog by tomorrow morning...." We can assume that Hermione knows as much as anyone who is not an actual Animagus about the Animagic process. She takes Harry very literally at this point, lecturing him about the length of time it would take to learn the Animagic arts, the bureaucratic hoops that he would have to jump through, etc., without realizing that Harry is merely joking. What she does not challenge in Harry's comment is that he could decide to become a frog or a goldfish if he so inclined: she doesn't declare, in her full ultra-nitpicking mode, that Harry would not have the choice as to whether he would become a sea-faring critter. I take this as canonic evidence that Animagi are able to select the creature whose form they adapt (and I have the filk to prove it!) http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/marauders.htm#Whatever_Creature _We_Deem - CMC From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Mar 12 05:26:53 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 05:26:53 -0000 Subject: Magic Rats vs. Magi Rats Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53625 This passage from Chapter 4 of PoA prompts some meditation: A pair of enormous purple toads sat gulping wetly and feasting on dead blowflies. A gigantic tortoise with a jewel-encrusted shell was glittering near the window. Poisonous orange snails were oozing slowly up the side of their glass tank, and a fat white rabbit kept changing into a silk top hat and back again with a loud popping noise. Then there were cats of every color, a noisy cage of ravens, a basket of funny custard-colored furballs that were humming loudly, and on the counter, a vast cage of sleek black rats that were playing some sort of skipping game using their long, bald tails. The double-ended newt wizard left, and Ron approached the counter. "It's my rat," he told the witch. "He been a bit off-color ever since I brought him back from Egypt." "Bang him on the counter," said the witch, pulling a pair of heavy black spectacles out of her pocket. Ron lifted Scabbers out of his inside pocket and placed him next to the cage of his fellow rats, who stopped their skipping tricks and scuffled to the wire for a better took. Like nearly everything Ron owned, Scabbers the rat was secondhand (he had once belonged to Ron's brother Percy) and a bit battered. Next to the glossy rats in the cage, he looked especially woebegone. "Hm," said the witch, picking up Scabbers. "How old is this rat?" "Dunno," said Ron. "Quite old. He used to belong to my brother." "What powers does he have?" said the witch, examining Scabbers closely. "Er --" The truth was that Scabbers had never shown the faintest trace of interesting powers. The witch's eyes moved from Scabbers's tattered left ear to his front paw, which had a toe missing, and tutted loudly. "He's been through the mill, this one," she said. "He was like that when Percy gave him to me," said Ron defensively. "An ordinary common or garden rat like this can't be expected to live longer than three years or so," said the witch. "Now, if you were looking for something a bit more hard-wearing, you might like one of these --" [end quote] OK. We have these high-tech magical rats with all sorts of enhanced ultra-rodent powers for sale vs. poor old boring Scabbers who betrays not the faintest trace of magic. Yet of course we now know that the magic rats are, whatever their powers, just rats, whereas Scabbers was none other than Hogwarts alumni Peter Pettigrew. Since Peter was a wizard (albeit not an especially brilliant one), why didn't Peter display magic powers in his rodent incarnation? Two theories: (1) Peter was so terrified that he would be found out as an Animagi in hiding, that he refrained from showing any of his magical abilities. This might have explained his withdrawal short-term, but not long-term: since magical rats live significantly longer than ordinary rats, the non-magic Scabbers extended life span should have called some attention to itself.... (2) Part of the trade-off when a human wizard relinquishes human form is that he also relinquishes his magical powers when in animal form (save for the power to resume human form). This seems more likely to me: e.g., the human Sirius Black could have used an Expelliarmus spell to disarm the Trio, whereas Padfoot could have done nothing other than what a humungous black dog could have done(e.g., leap up on them). So, I will argue, that when Peter transformed into Scabbers/Wormtail, he lost most of his magic powers. Not till he resumed human form, and had his wand again, could he exercise his full magic powers. - CMC From thorn360 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 12 06:24:47 2003 From: thorn360 at yahoo.com (dimercury7) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 06:24:47 -0000 Subject: Rowling and Philosophy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53626 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Caius Marcius" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychodudeneo" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, dimercury7 > > wrote: > > "There is soooo much to go in to, such as whether or not V is the > > ultimate evil in the world, or is he just a representation of the > > ultimate failings of mortals (ala Plato)..." > > > > It's driven into our heads again and again that Voldemort isn't > > human. First, we learn that he's probably not human because he > > survived the reflected AK. Then when he kills the Unicorn, we're > told > > that doing something like that causes one to lose humanity. Even > > when restored to a body, Voldemort no longer looks human. JK > really > > drives it into us. > > > > With that in mind, I think it's unlikely that Voldemort is a > > representation of anything in mortal man, or how they would act. > > > > "psychodudeneo" > > > But Tom Riddle began as fully human - Being Lord Voldemort was a > gradual but conscious process of renouncing his humanity, getting in > touch with his inner Reptilian brain. So, yes, this is a > representation of what mortal men undergo when they renounce goodness > and avidly pursue the diabolic. > > - CMC ... exactly my thought... Tom Riddle was human (or mortal to use Plato's term)... Plato (I can't remember exactly where at the moment) tells a story of a man who finds a ring that makes him invisible. Eventually, the ring corrupts him so much that he winds up seducing all these women and killing his king. The power is what corrupted him. This is what I believe happened to Tom Riddle before he became the evil dark lord. Riddle was a great (terrible but great) wizard. His avalibility to use power is what corrupted him. (see those old dead guys actually have some import on our lives now!) Here's the obvious next question... There are alot of powerful GOOD wizards out there... why hasn't the power corrupted them? Since I can't remember for the life of me remember at the moment what Plato has to say, you'll have to bear with me and my own thoughts... Power is a great and wonderful thing. However, differnt people use power in a different way, each according to your own desires. If one desires good, then the power you posses will help you become even more good. If your desires are not good, then the opposite will happen and you get Lord V... either way, however, the power you posses will affect you life. Take Crouch - he had the political power to do what he wanted. And although his intentions were good, his desires were to gain more power. This allowed the power to corrupt him and (to him) justified the killings of the Death Eaters... Did Dumbledor sanction the killings? I honestly can't remember at the moment, but I do not believe that he would have approved. To get back to the topic at hand - V's desires are what allowed the power to corrupt him. He started off just as mortal as the rest of us, however, he desired more than what was good. Thus, over time, he became the evil snake-creature we see today. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 12 07:11:23 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 07:11:23 -0000 Subject: Magic Rats vs. Magi Rats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53627 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Caius Marcius" wrote: > This passage from Chapter 4 of PoA prompts some meditation: > > > [Harry, Ron, and Hermione in the magical pet store picking up Hermione's new pet and Scabber's rat tonic.] > > > We have ... magical rats with ... ultra-rodent powers ... vs. > Scabbers who betrays ...(no)... trace of magic. ...edited... Since > Peter was a wizard..., why didn't Peter display magic powers in his > rodent incarnation? > > Two theories: > > (1) Peter was so terrified that he would be found ..., that he > refrained from showing ... his magical abilities. This ... > explained short-term, but not long-term: ... magical rats live... > longer than ordinary rats, ... Scabbers extended life span should > have called some attention to itself.... > > (2) Part of the trade-off when a human wizard relinquishes human > form is that he also relinquishes his magical powers ...edited... > Not till he resumed human form, and had his wand again, could he > exercise his full magic powers. > > > - CMC bboy_mn: Well, we don't exactly know that the pet shop rats have 'ultra-rodent powers'. The rats in the cage were playing skip rope with their tails, and were very curious to look at Scabbers, and right on cue when the shop witch recommended the 'seek black rats' to Ron, they began skipping again. That could be the extent of their magical power. Their 'magic' might simply be their heightened awareness and exaggerated animation. Just as Harry and Hedwig understand each other beyond the normal awareness you would expect from an owl and human. Your Theory 1: Well, I am sure he was afraid to reveal himself in anyway, but he may have also just been a fat lazy human who acted like the fat lazy rat he was. As far as how long he lived, it doesn't look like Ron has any idea what the normal lifespan is for a rat, and no one else seems to know this either. I certianly had no idea. Scabbers probably just showed up at the Weasleys knowing that Arthur worked for the Ministry and had a lot of kids. All he would have had to do was hang around, act somewhat tame, look clean, and do his best to look cute, and the kids would start playing with him and feeding him. My guess is that by the time Molly found out about him, the kids had already made him a pet, and as the rat seemed tame and harmless, and knowing they really couldn't afford to buy a pet, she just accepted him. Infiltrating the household of Malfoys or any other wizard of substance would have been very unlikely. Doubtful that they would have tolerated a stray rat running around their house, and certainly wouldn't let their kids play with a common filthy garden rat. Some people can't understand why Scabbers/Peter would pick the Weasleys, but I think he made the perfect choice. All indicators pointed to a high likelihood of being taken in. Your theory 2: An animagus in animal form can't perform any significant magic because most wizards need a wand to perform magic. While it is possible for wizard to manifest magic without a wand, this method seems very limited. So unless your animal form is a monkey, you couldn't really hold your wand properly to perform any magic. It also seems that when a wizard transforms his clothes and whatever pocessions he is carrying tranform with him, that would also make his wand inaccessable. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Wed Mar 12 08:18:43 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 08:18:43 -0000 Subject: Rowling and Philosophy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53628 Comments/replies to Psychodudeneo, Caius Marcus, and dimercury7 in this post. Psychodudeneo wrote: With that in mind, I think it's unlikely that Voldemort is a representation of anything in mortal man, or how they would act. Caius Marcus replied: But Tom Riddle began as fully human - Being Lord Voldemort was a gradual but conscious process of renouncing his humanity, getting in touch with his inner Reptilian brain. So, yes, this is a representation of what mortal men undergo when they renounce goodness and avidly pursue the diabolic. I reply: Caius Marcus, I agree mostly with you here, although I'm not convinced that Voldemort intended to renounce his 'humanity' in all ways. Certainly I agree that he's trying to shed his mortality, but I'm not sure that 'mortality' and 'humanity' are synonymous. dimercury7 wrote: Here's the obvious next question... There are alot of powerful GOOD wizards out there... why hasn't the power corrupted them? I reply: I disagree to an extent with your analysis here ? I think that quite a few of the wizards we have met could easily be described as `corrupted' to one degree or another. It depends, I guess, mostly on what you *personally* consider to be the appropriate standard for moral standing and superiority. I mean, these kinds of moral debates have been raging since, er, forever, so I'll venture my own devil's advocacy here and give some examples of what could be considered corruption, to varying degrees. And what the heck ? I'll throw in some likeable characters just for fun. ;-) Fudge is "blinded by the love of the office [he holds...]" (GoF, US hardcover, Ch.36, 708) His actions at the end of GoF *could* be selfishly motivated. They could be perceived, as Dumbledore alludes, as self-centered and could likely result in difficulties down the road for our heroes. In Fudge's defense, he's acting in what he might believe to be the best way for roughly half of the WW. Fudge sees things differently ? a potentially insane Harry, an unprovable story from Dumbledore, and courses of action with which many people in the WW will disagree. Remember ? just because *we* like Dumbledore doesn't mean his standing in the WW is as infallible. Arthur Weasley is a hypocrite: "Arthur Weasley, you made sure there was a loophole when you wrote that law!" shouted Mrs. Weasley. "Just so you could carry on tinkering with all that Muggle rubbish in your shed!" (CoS, US paperback, Ch.3. 39) In Arthur's defense, he appears to be a genuinely nice guy, who's open-minded and well-intentioned. Does that exonerate him from violating the spirit of his own law? Nope ? that makes him a hypocrite, tantamount to US politicians who deliberately make campaign finance laws with loopholes so that the same corruption can continue under a different alias. Is that corrupt? Yep. Hagrid uses magic illegally: "I'm ? er ? not supposed ter do magic, strictly speakin'." (PS/SS, US paperback, Ch.4, 59) He knowingly violates the law, and uses magic because he likes to. You know what's worse? Hagrid actually intended to turn Dudley *into* a pig, not merely give him a tail. So in this case, Hagrid's *intent* is far worse than the result of his inept magical skills... luckily for Dudley. In Hagrid's defense, he doesn't necessarily mean harm all of the time, although frankly, giving Dudley a tail is out of line... it's funny, since we're preprogrammed not to like Dudley, but it's still out of line. Lupin is careless and dangerous: "But I always managed to forget my guilty feelings every time we sat down to plan our next month's adventure. And I haven't changed..." (PoA, US paperback, Ch.18, 355-6) So not only was Lupin careless, not only *is* Lupin careless, the clincher is that he *knows* he is, and doesn't change his behavior. In Lupin's defense, it's gotta be rough being a werewolf. Does it excuse the placing of others in danger? Nope. But he's all around pretty nice, so he gets leeway from the readership. I could go on ? almost every major character has major shortcomings, well, except for maybe Dumbledore, who seems, IMO, fairly sacrosanct, truth be told. The point is that these mistakes, this selfishness, is completely human. So human, I believe that it is these qualities that make these characters so believable and lovable. dimercury7 wrote: However, differnt people use power in a different way, each according to your own desires. If one desires good, then the power you posses will help you become even more good. I reply: That's so Kantian of you. Paraphrased, 'the only thing that is good in and of itself is a good will.' But Kant's mistake was that a good will can do horribly wrong things, while maintaining that it's position is correct. I'm not sure that the argument concerning `power' or 'desire' is necessarily accurate. We know canonically from McGonagall, Sirius Black, and Voldemort, that Pettigrew is a shabby wizard at best ? yet he would seem to have corrupted fairly easily. As I mentioned above, we know that Hagrid intended to do much worse to Dudley than give him a tail. Arguably, Pettigrew's one of the most vile villains we have in the series, IMHO. Thus far, we don't know that Riddle betrayed any friends. Sure, he's a killer, but has he actually pulled a Judas or a Lucifer? Uh, not of which we know. Remember, Dante placed Judas Isacariot, Brutus and Cassius in Lucifer's three mouths at the center of the ninth circle of the inferno, which contained the traitors. Treason, the betrayal of a trust, is a pretty hefty crime. But we don't have Voldemort on it yet. What JKR has talked about repeatedly is the power and significance of choice, and I like that. I like it a lot. In our modern world, it seems to me to be so easy to blame everything else for our problems. "It's McDonalds' fault I'm fat," "it's my parents' fault I'm not succeeding in life," "it's 911's (the phone number's) fault that four idiotic teenagers took a tiny rowboat into the Long Island Sound and drowned." No, no, no. That's what we never see. It's your fault you're fat, it's your fault you haven't succeeded yet, and it's the kids' fault for breaking the law and being stupid by taking a rowboat illegally into a frigid, fast-flowing body of water at midnight without safety precautions. I don't want to hear you blame your therapist, big tobacco, alcohol, drugs, your gland problem, your parents, your siblings, your friends and peers, pornography, *society* or whatever else for your actions. It doesn't matter what you're exposed or subjected to - you still have the capacity of choice. What I really like that she's doing by talking about choice is that she's returning responsibility for our actions to us, the makers of the choices. Arthur deserves the fifty galleon fine for breaking the law, Lupin deserves to have to leave Hogwarts for endangering students a *second* time. And others break the law and aren't caught, ala Hagrid. But just 'cause they don't get caught doesn't mean they didn't do wrong. Some of us get away with it, and some don't. Getting away with it is not the point. The point is that you might be lucky and evade punishment ? but if you don't get away with it, you're still ultimately responsible, and it's not anyone else fault, i.e. it's not *Malfoy's* fault that HHR are caught out of bed in PS/SS, costing their house all of those points. They deserve it - thoroughly. We don't hear that other Gryffindors break rules like that. And so what if we think the Weasley twins do - they don't get caught. So, on Voldemort, has he made some bad choices? Yep. Does he deserve to pay for them? Yep. But is he the only one who has been corrupted by selfishness, greed, or power? No way - almost all of the characters have been corrupted to one degree or another. dimercury7 wrote: To get back to the topic at hand - V's desires are what allowed the power to corrupt him. He started off just as mortal as the rest of us, however, he desired more than what was good. Thus, over time, he became the evil snake-creature we see today. I reply: Well, desires aren't the be-all and end-all, after all. Heh-heh. It's not just what you desire ? it's what you *choose* to do that counts. For example, it's an untenable argument that all of the Durmstrang students are evil just because they're practicing and learning the Dark Arts. In other words, you can't blame the Dark Arts for a person becoming evil. What is tenable is an argument that focuses on the choices these students make when deciding how and when to use them, and for what purposes. Voldemort's done some pretty heinous stuff, but he *chose* his path. The power didn't corrupt him. The Dark Arts didn't corrupt him. His desires were not in the way - his goal is to achieve immortality. What got in the way were obstacles, and he made some horrific choices when dealing with those obstacles. He did it all by himself. And I think that that's very significant, because what we see in the Potterverse is way more interesting than a black and white world. What we see is a world in which everyone, even the good guys, are totally fallible. And not only that, but they actually *do* fail, too, instead of just *having* weaknesses and overcoming them heroically as in so many corny adventure stories. These people make mistakes - and that's a big clue, I think. We're gonna see a lot of bad and selfish decisions in the novels to come, and from more characters than just the Death Eaters ? we're going to see JKR demonstrate that in some ways, the best of us can be corrupt and evil too. Heck, we can be corrupt and evil and even have good intentions. But it's not our power or our intentions that matter most - it's the *choices* we make that count the most. -Tom From eloiseherisson at aol.com Wed Mar 12 10:37:04 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 05:37:04 EST Subject: The Useless Animagus Message-ID: <160.1d34371f.2ba067d0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53629 Psychodudneo: > Something's been annoying me. Wizards aren't allowed to choose their > Animagus form, although one would hardly be able to tell this from > the books. > > Every Animagus we've seen so far has been perfectly adapted to that > wizard's needs. > To drive the point home, I hope that we finally see a long- > awaited "Absolutely Useless Animags". I'm talking about an animal > for completely and utterly unfit for whatever the Wizard had been > planning on doing. I see what you're saying, but I don't think this is necessarily an inconsistency. I have always assumed that animagic forms are determined by the wizard or witch's character or essence. Peter Pettigrew becomes a rat because, well he *is* a rat. Sirius becomes a dog because he is loyal. James became a stag because of its connotations of strength and nobility (JKR may also have had certain Christian symbolism in mind). Rita becomes a beetle because she is a low creature. Minerva? Well, I suppose she has a cat-like inscrutability. Of course, the characteristics are those commonly ascribed to the animals concerned. We all know of mean dogs and rats have an undeservedly bad name in some ways. Of course, names also seem to play a part. We could argue that Peter *Pettigrew* would naturally become smaller, that Sirius Black could become nothing but a black dog, that Rita Skeeter would become a creature that skitters about. We can look at the names as conceits, the author playing games for her own amusement, or to drop clues, or we can view them as 'real' within the context of the books and therefore having some influence on animagic form (as believers in numerology would have us believe our names do on our characters). Having said that, it is of course very convenient that James, Sirius and Peter took on the forms they did. These conveniences do tend to happen in books ;-) but then, look at the coincidences which happen in real life. Caius Marcius: >We can assume that Hermione knows as much as anyone who is not an >actual Animagus about the Animagic process. She takes Harry very >literally at this point, lecturing him about the length of time it >would take to learn the Animagic arts, the bureaucratic hoops that he >would have to jump through, etc., without realizing that Harry is >merely joking. What she does not challenge in Harry's comment is >that he could decide to become a frog or a goldfish if he so >inclined: she doesn't declare, in her full ultra-nitpicking mode, >that Harry would not have the choice as to whether he would become a >sea-faring critter. I take this as canonic evidence that Animagi are >able to select the creature whose form they adapt (and I have the >filk to prove it!) Good point. My comment on this would be that in the passage of canon you quote (which I snipped) Hermione gives as her source McGonagall's teaching, rather than a book. If she quoted a book, I would agree - she would know everything there is to know. As it is, we don't know how much McGonagall imparted during a transfiguration class. As the Animagus trnsformation is rather advanced magic, it was possibly only a comment made in passing. Hermione does also mention the need to register your animagic form, implying that it is fixed, as we assume it is. It seems strange to me that if you can *choose* your form, then you cannot choose which form to take according to circumstance. Finally, convenient as it is for Rita to be a 'fly on the wall' (yes, I know beetles aren't flies!), it's a very vulnerable form. Would you choose that over, say, being a bird? Would you *choose* to be a rat? After all, Crookshanks was able to press the knot on the Whomping Willow. Surely a cat would have been able to join in what, for the sake of ease and in deference to long tradition, I shall call the Marauders' exploits far more easily than a rat. I don't think you can choose. ~Eloise Who thinks the most annoyingly convenient thing in canon is that not only did Snape mention Polyjuice Potion but that he gave the name of the book in the restricted section of the library in which the recipe was contained. And would probably transform into a sloth. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bloodroses_thorn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 12 05:58:32 2003 From: bloodroses_thorn at yahoo.com (Sherri) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 21:58:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rowling and Philosophy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030312055832.16478.qmail@web12204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53630 dimercury7 said: >There is soooo much to go in to, such as whether or >not V is the ultimate evil in the world, or is he >just a representation of the ultimate failings of >mortals (ala Plato) to which "psychodudeneo" responded: >It's driven into our heads again and again that >Voldemort isn't human. >With that in mind, I think it's unlikely that >Voldemort is a representation of anything in mortal >man, or how they would act. I have to disagree with this. Lord Voldemort I think is the perfect representation of mortal man. Because he is the epitome of all things that can go wrong in the human condition. Tom Riddle was a perfectly ordinary person (even if he wasn't a very nice one), who through his own weaknesses and desires became something entirely inhuman. So, as far as that is concerned, I'd definitely have to go with Plato. Without getting into religious philosophy too much (which happens to be *my* major) I see Voldemort as being akin to the first Man. He was a normal person, who moved beyond his original state in a search for knowledge and the fulfillment of his desires. But, what's always intrigued me about Rowling is her views on the nature of evil (that's still philosophy, yes?). Because, she seems to me to be trying to change the older established form of 'knight in shining armour' vs. 'evil black sorcerer'. Her 'knight' (who I'm saying is Harry) is not the perfect child. He goofs off, he has disrespect for the rules, he isn't the sort of Rainbow Brite 'love everyone' type good guy that one is used to in these sorts of stories. He's human. He has human faults. Which is why I have wondered many times why she seems to go out of her way to make Voldemort so painfully inhuman. It has always struck me that Harry is allowed to play 'knight' and yet get away with the things he's done which are wrong (true, they weren't evil, but they *were* wrong) and yet Voldemort isn't allowed to keep a single shred of his humanity. It is easier to hate a villain if said villain isn't human, but it isn't easily believable. Rowling tries very hard to show the yin and yang of everyone. All of her good guys have faults, and most of her bad guys have some redeeming qualities. Except Voldemort. I keep waiting for her to show us the 'soft' side of LV. I don't think he will be redeemable, but I would like to see him be human. -Sherri-neko =^.^= __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com From steinber at inter.net.il Wed Mar 12 10:40:44 2003 From: steinber at inter.net.il (asandhp) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 10:40:44 -0000 Subject: SHIP: a few kayaks and a large fan-tom ship Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53631 I've got a few off-center ideas for future SHIPs which I'm listing for your entertainment, but since I don't expect anyone to join me, I've called them kayaks. If any of you are interested in investing in these, they can be expanded to rowboats or larger. My idea about Ron, though, is more complex. I predict he'll go with a character who has not yet been introduced, and I have quite clear ideas about who this character will be and many of the plot twists that will involve this speculative person. I'm guessing a scenario similar to the Crookshanks-Scabbers plot in which we knew something was going on, but found out at the end that what was really going on was something very different and important. I predict the same for Ron - we'll see him together with someone in a certain way, and then discover at the end something different and important. So - if my ideas are all "fantasy" ;-), fine, enjoy them for now. But if I'm right, reading my theory will spoil the surprise ending. So I'm putting my Ron theory at the end of this post, and read it at your discretion. For the simpler ones: McGonnagal and Hagrid. (1) They kissed in PS. (2) They're about the same age. (3) McGonnagal has never talked down to Hagrid. (4) He's likely to prove himself in the V War and become respectable enough for McGonnagal to be seen with in public. (5) She might also transfigure him to a more managable size, which would explain why Coltrane isn't needed after movie 5. Snape and Fleur. (1) I just like the black and white look of the two of them together. (2) She's got veela charms that could possible turn the unturnable Snape head. (3) I'm sure that JK's going to do an Austen's Darcy on Snape. He's going to fall for someone "inferior" or "unsuitable" against his will and there's going to be this incredible inner struggle culminating with a fantastic proposal scene to make Jane Austen proud, etc. That part I'm sure about. Whether the someone is Fleur or someone else, I'm not so sure, but Fleur is as good as anyone. What I really can't figure out is how we're going to be privy to all this, working from Harry's POV. Hermione and Cho. - no, not a slash-ship, just roommates. (1) I believe that Harry's going to die, or otherwise be out of the story, at the end of Book 7, and Hermione and Cho will both have lost two beuxs each (Krum&Harry and Cedric&Harry), and will give up looking for men for a while and just move in together for company and to reminisce about Harry. (2) Possibly - very far-fetched possibly - Harry and Hermione will marry for a few days before he dies/disappears-from-story, and Hermione will end up the single mother of a son named Harry. After all, Hermione is JK's alter-ego, and single motherhood was an important period in her life. (3) I do believe that Hermione will eventually (around 28?) marry some much older wizard (40?) of the type who reads Transfiguration Today, and they will be very attached and loving and happy and good to each other. (4) As for Cho, I suppose that sometime between 18 and 28 (when Hermione gets married), she and Hermione will take a world- wizarding tour, and while in America, Cho will fall for some Quodpot superstar and settle down on that side of the Atlantic. Harry - Unless he has a *very* short marriage to Hermione, then he's not going to pair up with anyone. He's been fighting V since he was born, just about, and what kind of normal life can such a person have once V is gone? Either he'll die, or be out-of-story some other way, which I'll post about some other time. Neville and Ginny. They could be very happy together, once Neville becomes a respectable absent-minded professor. Dean and Lavender. Why not? OK, enough small potatoes. Now on to Ron and - Ron and Hermione's Muggle sister. (1) Ron is surely going to marry a muggle because that is the ultimate vindication of the anti-racism theme that the books revolve around. In this way, he'll be as great as (or greater than) his brothers (his great need) on the moral front, which is the greatest front there is (certainly JK feels that way). (2) The moralistic humor potential of Ron bringing a Muggle home is delicious: "Ron, of course we love muggles, and we'd be thrilled if you married a muggle-born witch like Hermione, but a completely magicless person?" etc. (3) Hermione has never mentioned this sister because she's always been terribly jealous of the gorgeous, straight-haired, straight-teethed, popular, straight-A(-)- average-without-studying kid who's been threatening her since said sister taught herself to read at the age of 4. That's why Hermione's turned herself into a nerd/geek/swot. But when said sister did not get a Hogwarts letter the summer before HRH's Year 2, Hermione started to forgive her and loosen up. But then it was a little late to start talking about a sister she had pretended didn't exist before. She would've felt too stupid. So she just didn't say anything. (4) But now, when H&R are going to visit Hermione during the summer (so we've all decided), they'll meet Miss Muggle, and Ron will notice that she's a bit better suited to him than Hermione herself, and Hermione will see the same and bless the mutual interest. Now for the plot twisting: How are Ron and Miss Muggle Granger (MMG) going to keep up a relationship with him at Hogwarts and her at Eton, or wherever? Well, during that visit to the Granger Family, Ron discovers all sorts of great things about Muggle-land, including Chess Clubs and Chess Magazine. Hermione arranges a subscription for him to be delivered to her house, and then sent to her by her parents, which she then delivers surreptitiously to Ron (since dealing with the Muggle world is so frowned upon). If MMG is dorming, she can offer to have the subscription delivered to her at school to forward to Hermione, and if she's at a local school, then it's even easier. She just sneaks letters into the Chess Magazine copies which Hermione happily passes on, and Ron give Hermione letters to include within her own posts directly to her sister. Anyway, with all this going on, there's lots of secret whispering going on between Ron and Hermione, which Harry interprets as them being involved with *each other.* Harry's a bit hurt, because he's getting feelings for Hermione himself, but he decides to be noble, and in slightly mournful tones talks to Ron occasionally about Ron's relationship (without mentioning Hermione by name, of course). Ron goes on about how wonderful their (without naming MMG) relationship is, and his hopes to be connected to the Grangers one day, etc. Meanwhile, Hermione's trying to catch Harry's attention, but Harry's being noble and refuses to notice anything coming his way, because he's so sure there's a Ron-Hermione thing. This goes on all year, and we, the readers, seeing things from Harry's perspective, are supposed to be suprised and delighted when at the end of the year, everything gets sorted out in some very funny, sweet, ticklish scene where Harry finally realizes who's really interested in whom, discovers the delights of romance, and has to start helping Ron deal with his parents and with WW attitudes in general to a wizard -muggle relationship. So, if H&R do end up visiting Hermione in an upcoming book, and find an MMG there, don't be surprised by the outcome. And if none of this happens, all I can say is that it should have! The Admiring Skeptic From ultimatesen at aol.com Wed Mar 12 08:24:05 2003 From: ultimatesen at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 08:24:05 -0000 Subject: Harry and Hermione being siblings... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53632 Me last night: Now, I have done my homework. Lily & James were born in 1960. This puts them at Hogwarts in '71. They'd be finished in 78. Considering Harry & all are born in 80, (for example Harry due in July) would have been conceived about Oct 79. (I'm using lexicon's timeline for these figures) Now... We know Hermione's born in Oct. If she is in fact Harry's sister, this would be consistent (no overlapping) because we know it is possible to get pregnant again even a few weeks after delivery. Consider all these siblings 9 months apart IRL. We don't know anyone's due dates, but coming early is always a possibility. Yet, we're assuming all of this in human gestation. If the WW life span is much longer, why couldn't gestation be different too? ********************************************************************** Ok.. Let me clarify my own post because? I was just rereading my post & I realized that I had an incomplete thought going timeline wise. *If* Hermione was born to L/J Oct 79, she would've been conceieved Jan 79. That would have given L/J time to finish Hogwarts (June 78), plan a small wedding (maybe a couple of months time), and begin TTC (trying to conceive). Figure they started TTC in August? 4/5months time between a possible Jan conception date of Hermione. I know first hand that TTC can take some time. I'm still wondering if gestational period for WW is different than normal? ********************************* Melissa: [hmm still no takers in the Hermione/Ron are siblings theory.? Oh well ;o)] me: LOL As I'm gathering information things shift into place whether its a true possibility or not. I mean, I didnt sit down & try to do that time like that I did just earlier in this post when it was just a novel idea. Give me time. I'll either slowly disprove myself or end up being more convinced. Greicy: Aren't premature children smaller than others throughout their life?? Being that Harry is small could mean he was a premature baby.? Mabye Lily was so stressed about the whole Voldemort thing she caused herself to give birth earlier than expected. me: Could be, but I don't think they remain small. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't seekers usually the smallest build of the team? This would (could) mean James was small at his age too. I think Harry's size is related to having a cupboard for a room and not being fed properly. Sen Trying for my own Hermione From elfundeb at comcast.net Wed Mar 12 11:32:13 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 06:32:13 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quidditch as Metaphor/Krum References: <20030311070708.1797.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001d01c2e88b$06f03960$723b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53633 Petra Pan wrote, in response to my long-ago Quidditch post: > > Where we differ, if I read you > correctly in the rest of your post not > quoted above, is that you seem to be > extrapolating from their Quidditch > functions certain characters' > functions in the upcoming Voldemort > War. > > I see the metaphor as containing one > more degree of separation. That is, > someone who plays on a Quidditch team > may or may not play the same kind of > role in the V War. The dynamics and > strategies involved in Quidditch, > however, may very well reflect the > dynamics and strategies that will come > into play in the warfare that will be > waged in the future books. > I think we agree here which is why I hedged my comments with "and/or". Other than Harry, who I think we agree plays a Seeker role in Quidditch and against Voldemort, most of the characters I cited as having *Quidditch* roles such as Chaser or Keeper or Captain do not play Quidditch. For example, I definitely don't expect Hermione to ever to join the Gryffindor Quidditch team, though I do expect her to continue her "Chaser" role against Voldemort. I also suggested Ron as "Keeper" against Voldemort, and though many listmembers believe he will be the next Keeper for Gryffindor, I think his character development to date indicates otherwise, as it would be too easy a solution to his search for self to be handed a spot on the Quidditch team. I think it's possible that the twins might play a Beater role against Voldemort at some point, but it's really speculation based on the fact that they already act as off-field Beaters for Harry (as in the Ton-Tongue Toffee incident). In Quidditch their fouls didn't cost Gryffindor points because of the actions of other team members in saving those points. This could foreshadow that they will unwittingly aid the other side (which is what a Quidditch foul does because the other side is given a penalty shot to compensate) but that the *light* side will overcome it. > The comparison here between Harry who > refrained from catching the Snitch and > Krum who didn't would make the case > for considering Harry to be a team > player and Krum not IF we are given > the impression that Krum was motivated > by the desire to "preserved his own > status as the most brilliant Seeker" > on the way "to get glory for himself." > Mind pointing me again? I never got > that impression. I think the hints of disapproval are there, but they are very subtle: 1. The Bulgarian team members "shaking their heads and looking dejected." 2. Everyone, including the Irish team and Ludo Bagman, were taken aback at Krum's actions. 3. The final score was 170 to 160. He gave up on his team when they only needed to score only two more goals in order to put victory within reach. One goal would have put a tie within reach. Krum's action sealed the team's defeat. Actually, I find Krum to be a very sympathetic character. He is a child prodigy, a star athlete at only 18. Girls he doesn't even know are chasing after him. His headmaster fawns over him sickeningly. He's a commodity and that's how he's treated by almost everyone. He may never have known a normal life. Not surprisingly, he seems comfortable with himself only when he's playing Quidditch. His awkwardness and shyness away from Quidditch are well documented. E.g., "Harry noticed that he seemed a lot less coordinated on the ground." Or the fact that he had to "pluck up the courage" to ask Hermione to the Yule Ball. One can hardly blame Krum for showcasing what seems to be the only thing people value him for. Krum's evident feelings of inadequacy in spite of his extraordinary talent echo Harry's similar feelings, but Krum seems even more isolated than Harry. Harry has a close relationship with Ron and Hermione, but Krum seems to be kept away from his classmates by Karkaroff and singled out for special treatment. Perhaps that's why he is so overwhelmingly taken with Hermione -- she is the only person other than his parents who takes an interest in Victor the person and not Victor the world-famous seeker. Basically, I feel sorry for him. Debbie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From elfundeb at comcast.net Wed Mar 12 11:32:55 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 06:32:55 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dursleys (WAS: Harry's dreams/Petunia/Draco's Wand/Hagrid & Crookshanks=Clues References: Message-ID: <002501c2e88b$202ccba0$723b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53634 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: Could it be that Sirius > will be cleared up in perhaps book 5 and come to take Harry away > from the Dursleys. From what I understood in Debbie's post on > Dursley's Fears, it seems that Vernon maybe afraid of magic because > Sirius and James played tricks on him. It would be great to see the > look on Vernon's face to see Sirius, again. This can be debunked > though: Why recognize Sirius's name in the news? Did he know if > Sirius's last name? I'm not certain what Greicy is debunking here, and I'll apologize in advance if I've misread her post, but if she means that Vernon should have recognized Sirius from his appearance on the news in PoA and that his failure to do so indicates that they have never met, I don't think it does, for the following reasons: 1. Harry doesn't recognize Sirius even though Sirius is in the wedding picture in the album Hagrid gave him. Sirius has changed too much in Azkaban. There's no reason to expect Vernon to recognize him. 2. At least in the portion of the news report the reader hears, Sirius is referred to only as "Black" which is of course a very common name. Moreover, although the Dursleys are stated to be watching TV when the report on Sirius airs, Vernon looks over his newspaper to stare at the photo of Sirius at the end of the report, indicating that he has likely been reading it and has not been paying attention closely. 3. It's unlikely that Vernon and Petunia attended the Potters' wedding (a circumstance in which they likely would have learned Sirius' full name, as he was best man). In the first chapter of PS/SS, it is stated that Petunia hadn't met Lily for several years. Based on the Lexicon timeline, several years would date back before the wedding, since this was 1981. Lily didn't leave Hogwarts until 1978, and the wedding couldn't have been before that. 4. In any encounter between James and friends and the Dursleys, it's very possible that James' friends were nameless accomplices, or that Vernon only learned Sirius' first name. So I don't think any theory involving face time between Sirius and Vernon can be debunked merely because of the news. Debbie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From htfulcher at comcast.net Wed Mar 12 12:04:19 2003 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 12:04:19 -0000 Subject: Rowling and Philosophy In-Reply-To: <20030312055832.16478.qmail@web12204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53635 This is a general reply to the thread, not any one in particular. It seems to me that Rowling is quite within the tradition of the Catholic moral tradition, without the trappings of Hagiographical writing conventions. Her writing clearly follows the English story- telling format (consider Beowulf as the flawed hero). He Who Must Not Be Named is a clear example of both the seduction of evil and the disfigurement of the person due to the corrupting influence of evil. From his youth, You Know Who has chosen the path of bitterness, revenge, hatred, and pride. This has disfigured his morals (obviously) as well as his physical person. His free choice to kill the unicorn represents a kind of ultimate choice for damnation that results in his incarnation in GoF being more demonic than human. As for Harry, we must distinguish the literary "Harry in a comedy" setting and "Harry in a tragedy/drama" setting. ISTM that most of Harry's rule breaking can be divided between situations that serve merely as enterainment (Divination) -- and let us not forget that HP is first and foremost intended to be an entertaining read, eh? -- thus clearly in the comedy genre, and as actions contributing to the resolution of the mystery at hand, in which case 'rule breaking' is a metaphor for overcoming obstacles to reach the goal. The most serious thing we can say about Harry's moral behavior is that he has a tendency to sin through omission in not passing on knowledge to Dumbledore and others that might prevent later suffering (which usually happens to Harry himself). In this regard, we again see the heroic character as found in so many English stories (going back even to the late Middle Ages) whose choice both impell the story forward and indicate the limitations of the human person. The Ethics of HP clearly turn on Dumbledore's comment that "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." (CoS, p 245 UK pb) The metaphysics of the HP universe have not been clearly defined by Rowling. I believe this is due to the material being written from the First Person Non-Omniscient perspective. Harry is a youth who has not fully examined the principles and powers that drive his universe. He takes much on face value, trusting his intuition (sometimes correctly and sometimes to his own harm) to make his way through. Yet, even in the presence of ghosts we discover (or will discover in OoP if JKR is true to her promise) that their existence is a kind of purgatory. I suspect that by the end of the series a case could be well made that JKR has drawn much from the basic canon of Western literature, the English literary tradition, and the basic western Catholic tradition of which she is a product. MarEphraim From hp at plum.cream.org Wed Mar 12 14:02:57 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 14:02:57 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rowling and Philosophy In-Reply-To: <20030312055832.16478.qmail@web12204.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030312130433.0097ed00@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53636 At 05:58 12/03/03 , Sherri wrote: >Rowling tries very hard to show the yin and yang of everyone. All of her >good guys have faults, and most of her bad guys have some redeeming >qualities. Except Voldemort. I keep waiting for her to show us the >'soft' side of LV. I don't think he will be redeemable, but I would like >to see him be human. Actually, there is a parallel to Voldemort's irredeemably "evil" nature: Dumbledore's categorical "good" nature. Even to the point that although every important character in the books has thus far got angry or lost their sang-froid at some stage (or more to the point, *acted* on that anger), Dumbledore never has. I really liked Tom's post and what he said. I'd like to add something else into the mix, though, from a conversation we've been having for the last couple of days over on the OT-Chatter list. I said there that I expected the subject to crop up here, but I didn't expect it to happen independently of that conversation. :-) The OT-Chatter conversation came about because of an interview with Philip Pullman on UK TV on Sunday evening. One of his points, which I see as having bearing on the Potterverse and the present conversation, is that what Pulman (and JKR, though each has a different take on the stakes) depicts is not a battle between "good" and "evil", but a battle between two opposing visions of what is "good". Riddle/Voldemort doesn't do what he does because he thinks he's evil, or because what he does is wrong. He does what he does because he thinks it's *right*. Riddle/Voldemort (and Slytherin before him) believes that wizarding society should be strong. In itself, there is nothing wrong with that perspective. As it happens, Dumbledore (presented as Riddle/Voldemort's nemesis) believes the same thing. It's in how that strength can best be achieved, and how to maintain it, that they differ. Riddle believes that strength lies in separatism, purity and superiority. Dumbledore believes that strength lies in inclusiveness, variety and an acknowledgement of our weaknesses. Draco Malfoy believes in purity and the inherent rights of the wealthy. This is a result of knee-jerk prejudices. Harry instinctively believes those views to be wrong, based not on prejudices but on his experience. (To propose another Kantian dichotomy, Tom.) :-) It's not coincidental that the first book, which by its very title is about immortality, opposes Riddle's desire to be immortal (as a result of which he had *chosen* to become Voldemort; my view as someone who understands the subtleties of French is that the name means "Flight from death") with Dumbledore's statement that "to the well-organised mind, death is but the next great adventure". Is it "right" to want to overcome death? Is it "right" to accept it as a friend? Inherently, there is nothing wrong with either position, and we all would like to overcome death (that desire is at the root of almost every religion on the planet!). The difference is all in the choices, and what price we are willing to put on achieving our desires. Voldemort's choices in overcoming death include killing not only impure people but the pure Unicorns. For Dumbledore, despite his statement, life is precious. Nobody has a right to decide to take another. Hence his dislike of the Dementors, which extinguish not only life, but the very possibility of it (the soul). It is only the context which drives the reader to the unambiguous conclusion that Voldemort's desires and choices are ultimately evil; there is no indication that he *is* evil, it is his actions (and the beliefs which fuel them) which are evil. Dumbledore's desires and choices are for everyone to co-exist in harmony. The reader is drawn to conclude that this is the ultimate good. -- GulPlum AKA RIchard, who had better shut up because this is becoming a ramble. From naama_gat at hotmail.com Wed Mar 12 14:05:36 2003 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 14:05:36 -0000 Subject: Dursleys' Fears (WAS: Redeeming the Dursleys In-Reply-To: <002801c2e62a$39861a60$723b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53637 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, elfundeb wrote: > However, I agree that Vernon at least, and more probably he and Petunia together, were been victims - possibly on multiple occasions - - of the sort of magic that humiliated Vernon, and at least momentarily, made him fear for his life - just as the Ton-Tongue Toffee episode must have momentarily terrified Dudley. I will also propose that the perpetrators of the magic tricks played on Vernon were none other than "that double act, Sirius Black and James Potter . . . such a pair of troublemakers" that only the Twins could compare in terms of magical mischief. It seems right in character, knowing how they treated Snape. > > Possibly, every time Vernon has come into contact with wizards in his life, except Harry, someone performed an ugly magic trick on him. That is, in fact, what we see happening to Dudley. For someone such as Vernon who seems to need to feel powerful (why else would one derive pleasure from yelling at his subordinates?), the idea that there are people about with powers he doesn't share targeting him must be quite terrifying. > There are several small points that, for me, don't agree with this theory. First, there is a question of time. When did James and Sirius have the *time* to play magical tricks on Vernon? Petunia is Lily's younger sister, and Lily married early in life. Therefore, it's almost certain that Petunia married after Lily did. Now, James and Sirius wouldn't play magical tricks on Vernon before he and Petunia were married, because of the secrecy rules (once they were married, he would be considered family and can be allowed to know everything that Petunia knows). But PS makes it clear that Petunia and Vernon were never in touch with Lily and James. Besides, James wouldn't be playing tricks on his brother in law at that stage. He is no longer a kid, he is fighting ultimate evil, and I'm sure that Lily wouldn't have wanted her sister to be further alienated from her. Secondly, I don't think that Vernon is scared enough of magic and magical people to make it reasonable for him to have encountered magic before - certainly not directed against him. His fear is mainly one of social shame - he can't bear the thought of being known to have a link with these "freaks." Do you really think he would have threatened Hagrid with a gun if he had had previous encounteres with powerful wizards? If he had, he must know how futile a gun is in such circumstances. Thirdly, I don't *want* Vernon to have a reasonable reason to hate magic . I think it would dim a) the burlesque and b) the moral point that JKR is making (I think) through the Dursleys about bigotry and prejudice. Naama From hp at plum.cream.org Wed Mar 12 14:36:27 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 14:36:27 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rowling and Philosophy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030312141836.00962530@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53638 Oops. I forgot to say something important in my previous post. I shall make it a reply to this comment from dimercury7, when she said, inter alia: >V's desires are what allowed the >power to corrupt him. He started off just as mortal as the rest of >us, however, he desired more than what was good. Thus, over time, he >became the evil snake-creature we see today. I see it as something slightly different, and much more fundamental: the price Riddle/Voldemort pays for immortality is his humanity. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who'd like to apologise for the brevity of this post From blessedbrian at yahoo.com Wed Mar 12 13:16:27 2003 From: blessedbrian at yahoo.com (Brian Cordova) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 13:16:27 -0000 Subject: Why do a lot of people think Hagrid's going 2 B the one who "Snuffs it"? In-Reply-To: <6823455.1047410416219.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53639 Something tells me that if it is Hagrid (only JKR knows for sure), it will be a hero's death in that he would die defending either Harry, Dumbledore or both. Then again, we may be being thrown way off. We'll know on the weekend of the 21st of June (that weekend I will be shutting myself in my bedroom with the book and my wand by my side. If anyone bothers me, I will use the "gous awayus" spell on them!!). Brian From hp at plum.cream.org Wed Mar 12 16:11:19 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 16:11:19 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Hagrid's going to die In-Reply-To: <6823455.1047410416219.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030312145643.00985ad0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53640 I'd like to add a couple of thoughts to Richelle's list of reasons (I agree with the whole list, BTW): >3) In a way Hagrid may have outlived his usefulness to the plot. Compared to >the other characters, we know so much more about his background. We know >why he was expelled, that he's half giant, orphaned as a boy, and so >on. I could easily imagine that Hagrid completes his mission to the >giants and is killed during or shortly thereafter. Hagrid has to be killed, or at least die, "on screen". He's far too important a character (as you say, we know almost all there is to know about him) for his death to be nothing more than a report in one of Dumbledore's spies' reports, or an article in the Daily Prophet. Furthermore, in view of JKR's sneaky nature and writing style, it needs to be *incontrovertible* that he's dead, so The Narrator has to see the event (i.e. we do to). If we don't see Hagrid popping his clogs, I for one won't believe that he's dead. Even we if have a funeral! (Someone might argue that Crouch Snr. isn't actually dead either, as we didn't see it happening. Whilst it's *possible* that Crouch Jnr. was lying when he said he'd killed his father and transfigured his body into a bone, he was under Veritaserum at the time, and the plot revolves to a certain extent on our belief in that potion's efficacy.) The second point I wanted to make is about Hagrid's narrative function. Hagrid's main role has been as Harry's (and our) guide to the magical world. Apart from introducing us to Diagon Alley, he's our door to the Forbidden Forest, and indeed Hogwarts itself, as a non-teacher adult. As a child-like character, he can introduce Harry to all these wonders on his level, whilst at the same time having an adult's knowledge of them but none of the teacher's reserve. Harry is no longer a child and the wizarding world is no longer just a wonderful place, it's a dangerous one (I don't mean that it's never been dangerous before, as it clearly has; it's just that the sense of wonder has now faded into the background). Harry now needs a more adult non-teacher guide who can safely introduce him to those dangers and Hagrid is absolutely not that person. When Harry was 11, Hagrid was the perfect guide, because he shared Harry's wonder, but now that sense of wonder can be dangerous of itself. Hagrid's lack of appreciation of just *how* dangerous some of his fascinating creatures can be is a case in point. Hagrid has now become superfluous to Harry's development, and the widely (and IMO correctly) suspected mission to the Giants is a perfect way for him to go with a bang (perhaps even quite literally!). Harry now has more appropriate, more helpful, guides to wizarding world, such as Sirius, Remus and the older Weasleys. All of these people care for Harry as much as Hagrid does, and he cares for and trusts them as much as he does Hagrid. Hagrid, of course, has a special place in Harry's affections, as he is the one who rescued him from the Dursleys (although he's also the one who delivered him...), which means that his departure is going to be particularly poignant, but that narrative function is now over. Harry needs to stand up for himself and the loss of his rescuer is a very powerful symbol of that. At this stage in the overall narrative, no character has more narrative and symbolic *need* to be killed, and none of the remaining important characters is as extraneous to the needs of the developing war. Sure, by the end of the series, Dumbledore, any of the Weasleys, any of the surviving "old gang" or any of Harry's classmates could be marked for extinction, but I don't think that it makes sense for that to happen now. Hagrid, on the other hand, is a marked man. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who's sorry to see Hagrid go, but go he must From amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 12 16:08:04 2003 From: amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk (amy_marblefeet) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 16:08:04 -0000 Subject: SHIP: a few kayaks and a large fan-tom ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53641 The Admiring Skeptic wrote a very interesting post on shipping but started it off by saying it was a little off centre. Comparing this to the Florence theories that have been floated I found the post entirely "on centre", well, at least it contained characters that have actual physical description and lines. Apart from Hermiones sister, but I'll get on to her later. Now my reply: >Snape and Fleur. Hmm, not sure about this one. Would be hard to see how JKR would make it work, and I never really got the impression that Snape cared that much for looks. Also he is almost twice her age, though it would make a rather amusing scene if they were caught together. I would like to know where you stand on Snapes feelings about Lily, I am completely in love with the theory of LOLLIPOPS and your theory about Fleur is similar. Apart form she's alive and Lily is quite dead though. >Hermione and older wizard Well, there is that small rather bent group of shippers over there to the left who are quite happy to pair off Hermione with Snape, as long as it's after she leaves school of course, this is a children's book after all. >Neville and Ginny. They could be very happy together, once Neville >becomes a respectable absent-minded professor. I love this pairing and it always makes me smile. But why wait until they both leave school. There are endless comic potential with this pairing. I don't have any brothers but I think the six Weasly boys would be pretty protective of their little sister, oh dear, poor Neville. >Ron and Hermiones muggle sister I never really thought of this one before. I do like your little twist at the end though. My favourite SHIP for Ron would have to be Eloise Midgen though. Introduced in book four when she tried to hex her spots off but removed her nose and had it put back on squint, in Rons opinion. Ron also hated the thought of being left without a partner to go to the ball and having to go with her. However we know Hermione thinks she's really nice. It might not be till book six or seven where Eloise "matures over the summer" and suddenly the spots are gone, her nose is not squint but unique and her personality a wonderful match for Ron. Who, in my opinion, is now tired of being shunned by Hermione and at the beginning of term bursts into Harrys train compartment and exclaims "you'll never guess who I just saw!" Can you imagine the scene when he tells Hermione who he is going to Hogsmead with, alone? "I thought you said she was a troll!" "I never said that!" "You did! You said her nose is squint!" "I think her nose is cute!" sigh Ron finally gets over his crush on Hermione just as she realises that she quite liked him back. Oh, the endless drama! One pairing you missed off was Hannah Abbot and Ernie Macmillian. Seen swapping chocolate frog cards in the three broomsticks over the Christmas of fourth year it is my prediction that they will be the first two who start "officially" dating in book five. Amy M Passing out some heart shaped, soft centred, sugar coated chocolate sweets to all who board her Ron/Eloise kayak ;-) From devika at sas.upenn.edu Wed Mar 12 16:11:28 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 16:11:28 -0000 Subject: Harry and Hermione being siblings... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53642 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theultimatesen" wrote: > > Greicy: > Aren't premature children smaller than others throughout their > life?? Being that Harry is small could mean he was a premature > baby.? Mabye Lily was so stressed about the whole Voldemort thing > she caused herself to give birth earlier than expected. > > me: > Could be, but I don't think they remain small. Someone correct me if > I'm wrong, but aren't seekers usually the smallest build of the team? > This would (could) mean James was small at his age too. I think > Harry's size is related to having a cupboard for a room and not being > fed properly. > I think you're right in saying that seekers are usually small. They're supposed to be light and speedy (QTTA and Oliver Wood both say this), so it would make sense that they have small builds. James is described as being a tall man in GoF, but that's not necessarily evidence that he wasn't small for his age at Hogwarts. He could easily have had a huge growth spurt at the age of 16 or more. However, just to nitpick slightly here, we don't know that James was a seeker on the Gryffindor quidditch team. I know that the movie said so, but JKR said in an interview that James was a chaser. I guess it depends on which one you take as canon. Or maybe he could have been both? Maybe he was originally small for his age, but then he grew between his 5th and 6th years (or around there) and then was no longer the ideal build for a seeker. However, still being the excellent flier that he was, he decided to be a chaser instead? It's possible. I think it's possible that Harry's size is at least partly due to his upbringing by the Dursleys. However, that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. I wouldn't be surprised if Harry becomes tall just like his father. Devika, who was a premature baby, but isn't *that* small anymore--and certainly wasn't as a child. From SaalsG at cni-usa.com Wed Mar 12 16:36:45 2003 From: SaalsG at cni-usa.com (Grace Saalsaa) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 10:36:45 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Hagrid's going to die References: <4.2.0.58.20030312145643.00985ad0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <002301c2e8b5$92d2ac40$d44053d1@DJF30D11> No: HPFGUIDX 53643 Perhaps its because I like the simplistic qualities that Hagrid possesses, that my opinion on his forthcoming death is one of disagreement. I don't think he dies. Really. Yes, we do know quite a bit about Hagrid's history - more so than many of the other characters. But because JKR has painted him with a child-like persona, I just can't see her killing off Hagrid. It would be like killing a naive child; one that should be protected rather than killed. OK, JKR killed off Cedric - but he never came across as an innocent. The thing about Hagrid's role that might overlooked is his adult nature. This one, is partically hidden from Harry but is evident to Dumbledore, who puts a great deal of trust in Hagrid. There is a lot of conversation that goes on amongst the adults which Harry doesn't have privilege to, and we only see brief glimpses of it. -Hagrid knows all about what guards the stone. -"Nonsense. Why would Snape hate you." and yet he can't meet Harry's eyes indicating he knows something. -enough trust in Hagrid to make him a teacher. I think Hagrid doesn't die. Instead his role/function changes. JKR has already given this bit of foreshadowing. He has a job to talk to the giants. He becomes something of an ambassador. And as far as his relationship with Harry, I see Harry becoming the one who saves Hagrid from some calamity. It would be Harry's first time being the hero and saving someone other than himself or another child. As he enters this adult world, its logical to expect that he saves an adult this time, and who better than his good friend Hagrid? Therein lies Hagrid new function in the story's future. Grace [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Mar 12 16:48:16 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 16:48:16 -0000 Subject: Rowling and Philosophy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53644 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" >>>Thus far,we don't know that Riddle betrayed any friends. Sure, he's a killer, but has he actually pulled a Judas or a Lucifer? Uh, not of which we know. Remember, Dante placed Judas Isacariot, Brutus and Cassius in Lucifer's three mouths at the center of the ninth circle of the inferno, which contained the traitors. Treason, the betrayal of a trust, is a pretty hefty crime. But we don't have Voldemort on it yet.<<< Of course we do! " I was sympathetic, I was kind. Ginny simply *loved* me. *No one's ever understood me like you, Tom ... I'm so glad I've got this diary to confide in ... It's like having a friend I can carry around in my pocket...." -- CoS ch17. Ginny certainly was betrayed. As for rebellion, Tom was a prefect when he set the Serpent of Slytherin on the school. Pippin From seventhsqueal at yahoo.com Wed Mar 12 16:21:03 2003 From: seventhsqueal at yahoo.com (SeventhSqueal) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 08:21:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rowling and Philosophy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030312162103.22774.qmail@web10704.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53645 dimercury7 wrote: In that vein, I was wondering if anyone else is interested in the philosophy that can be seen in and/or explained by the HP series. There is soooo much to go in to, such as whether or not V is the ultimate evil in the world, or is he just a representation of the ultimate failings of mortals (ala Plato)... mmmm - stuff like this makes my philosophic mouth water... anyway, I can and most definatly want to wax eloquently on such topics if anyones out there wants to hear them, and I especially would love it if anyone else out there has such theories.... SeventhSqueal replies: Yes, but it's not fully formed. I recognize a lot of Nietzsche's ideas in the Harry Potter series, especially his ideas of the 'overman'. Voldemort represents the worst possible type (hitlerian model) for the 'overman' and Dumbledore the best possible kind of 'overman'. Harry Potter is an overman in the making and has the potential based on his decisions go either way. Although the series has a very clear Good vs. Evil theme, there even appears to be a Beyond Good and Evil ethically grey area that some of the wizards, Dumbledore and Harry included, have to venture into. By treading this territory (when Harry is breaking the rules) he becomes ethically or morally transcendent. This state of transcendence is crucial and dangerous ground. The only way to tell if the transgression is positive or negative is by observing the fruit of the transgression. Did the magic serve humanity or a human purpose or did it just feed the ego of the overman? That could also be one of the ways to define the difference between dark and white magic. Does the end justify the means? Nietzsche's idea of Will to Power dovetails with the beyond good and evil grey area. I have a very broad definition of the idea of WTP as the inherent biological directive that every living organism has withn itself to seek opportunities for survival. It is a normal and beautiful cellular survival mechanism. Unfortunately, sometimes in humans WTP manifests in a way that is extraordinarily detrimental to others. Sometimes it's sociopathic hubris, like with Voldemort and Hitler and it serves no one but themselves and then it is the job of the hero or society to keep the megalomaniac's WTP in check. I'm not suggesting that JK Rowling is writing Nietzschean literature. These ideas blossom naturally in much of the world's most resonant and archetypal legends and myths. Disclaimer. Nietzsche's ideas are ethically grey and have been interpreted and used with unethical results. It is the spin that the interpreter gives Nietzsche's ideas that makes them ethically healthy or unhealthy. ~SeventhSqueal There's no earthly way of knowing / Which direction we are going / There's no knowing where we're rowing / Or which way the river's flowing / Is it raining? / Is it snowing? / Is a hurricane a-blowing? / Not a speck of light is showing / So the danger must be growing / Are the fires of hell a-glowing? / Is the grisly reaper mowing? / Yes, the danger must be growing / 'Cause the rowers keep on rowing / And they're certainly not showing / Any signs that they are slowing! From buddhacat at yahoo.com Wed Mar 12 16:48:10 2003 From: buddhacat at yahoo.com (buddhacat) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 16:48:10 -0000 Subject: The Useless Animagus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53646 psychodudeneo wrote: > Something's been annoying me. Wizards aren't allowed to choose their > Animagus form, although one would hardly be able to tell this from > the books. > > Every Animagus we've seen so far has been perfectly adapted to that > wizard's needs. > To drive the point home, I hope that we finally see a long- > awaited "Absolutely Useless Animags". I'm talking about an animal > for completely and utterly unfit for whatever the Wizard had been > planning on doing. > > For instance, an assasin who has the ability to become a 3 ton male > rhinoceros. Me: That's a good point. But, even if forms are not chosen, which came first, the animal form or the profession? I mean, what if Rita became a reporter because it suited her insect form? And maybe Minerva is used to inflitrate Muggle areas because she can turn into a cat, not the other way around. So maybe the needs are perfectly adapted to the animal form, rather than the form being perfectly adapted to the needs. Against this theory is the giveaway names, Sirius and Lupin and so on. I'm reminded of an old joke by Dennis Leary: "Lou Gehrig. Died of Lou Gehrig's disease. How'd he not see THAT one coming?" Anyway, I've always taken the names as fictional devices, clues for the alert/adult reader. I say this because no one in the books remarks on the odd coincidence of a dog-man named Sirius or a wolfman named Lupin. If anyone did, I think we'd have to assume that forms are preordained. -- Buddhacat From hp at plum.cream.org Wed Mar 12 18:13:26 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 18:13:26 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Predictions for OoP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030312161534.00962120@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53647 The Admiring Skeptic wrote: >I'm still interested in hearing from the Mods or anyone else about what >one should do with an idea that seems very likely and also a complete >spoiler if it's true. Post it? Sit on it? Post it with a warning? Well, unless you're JKR (in which case, welcome!) :-) you can't know beyond a doubt that it's true and thus it is speculation rather than fact. As you will have seen from however long you've been reading this list, there's a LOT of speculation around, and *some* of it has to come true, if only as a result of the old adage that if you throw enough mud, some of it will stick... After all, if we didn't think some of speculations would come true, we wouldn't bother discussing them in the first place. So although I'm not a Mod, I say go ahead and post your thoughts, and regardless of how likely they are to come true, I'm sure *someone* here will find some holes to poke in them. :-) >re: the bezoar and other Snape's Welcome Speech items: What >they all have in common is that they all appear in ordinary Muggle >dictionaries with very similar meanings to those given by Snape. Well, the vast majority of the stuff in the books is genuine folklore from one tradition or another, and JKR has invented very little truly original terminology. From dragons to mandrakes, from unicorns to the Philosopher's Stone, they're all "real" and their uses in the Potterverse generally coincide with real-word views. Drawing conclusions on that basis is just a little dangerous. >There are only so many standard mystery and fantasy plots, and JK has >already used four each in the first four books. Figure like this: > >Mystery: >PP/SS: bank robbery/ burglery >CoS: attempted murder >PoA: jail break >GoF: secret agent/ attempted murder Isn't that selective post-rationalising? The secret agent plot is present in each of the books to date: Quirrel, Ginny (OK, she wasn't a willing agent, but she was an agent all the same; even so, Diary!Riddle fits the profile as well), Wormtail (and Crookshanks, in a way), Crouch Jr. And of course Snape throughout the books, who's the very essence of a secret agent. The jail break motif is an important element of both PoA and GoF; it could also be applied to CoS (Diary!Riddle "escapes" the diary, Ginny is imprisoned, the Basilisk is freed); I can't immediately see escape from imprisonment in PS/SS, but I'm sure someone else can have a go. :-) Attempted murder is all over the place. I won't even list the candidates. :-) As for robbery/burglary (in fiction, *bank* robberies aren't *that* frequent), the burglary in the first book is hardly of the same narrative importance as, say, Sirius's escape in PoA. The PS/SS plot could have easily happened without any reference to the Gringotts break-in. Yes, it sets some of the action in motion, but it's not central to that action. Robbery/burglary makes several other appearances anyway, sometimes in a more important role than that. In CoS, Hermione steals the Boomslang skin from Snape's office (ditto Crouch Jr. in GoF, and Dobby with the Gillyweed in CoS). Ginny steals the diary back from the boys' dorm in CoS, Crookshanks steals Neville's password list in PoA, Sirius breaks into Gryffindor Tower. There are more examples. >Fantasy: >PP/SS: keeping a magic object away from the Dark Lord (a la LOTR) >CoS: slaying the dragon >PoA: rescuing the innocent from a high tower (prepubescently not a >princess) >GoF: accomplishing heroic tasks (a la Greek mythology) Again, sorry, but I think you're post-rationalising. The elements above aren't entirely on the same level in terms of their narrative importance. I'll examine just one of those as an example of why I disagree with your reasoning. Firstly, the fantasy archetype is rescuing a *damsel/princess* from a high tower, not "the innocent". Secondly, rescuing the damsel from a dungeon, which is the case in CoS (in that case, it *is* a girl) is a variant on that archetype; further variants are the rescue from the watery depths in GoF, and the rescue from the Troll in PS/SS. Thirdly, Sirius isn't actually rescued from a high tower; yes, he's rescued from a 7th floor room, but it's definitely not in a tower - perhaps interestingly, he is taken *to* a tower. One small comment on the GoF one: isn't "heroic task" just a little vague? After all, the other three examples are themselves heroic tasks. > From this, one can begin to extrapolate which plots are left and >which she might use in the next three books. Book 7 is reserved for >the destruction of Evil by Good. So my guess is: > >OoP: Mystery - kidnapping; Fantasy - saving a real princess from a >high tower,etc (see above) Kidnapping: already done: Quirrel is sort-of kidnapped by Voldemort; Ginny is kidnapped into the Chamber; Ron is sort-of kidnapped into the Shrieking Shack; Moody is *absolutely* kidnapped by Crouch Jr., and what other word is there for getting Harry to the graveyard? :-) Saving the princess: she's already been saved from the dungeon (err... "see above"). :-) >Book 6: Mystery - information espionage; Fantasy - reaching the secret >source of magical wisdom Espionage is an undercurrent throughout the books, and in any event it's not a plot archetype, it's a genre. The source of magical wisdom was already encountered in the first book as the Philosopher's Stone, and in any event, the kids will be doing their NEWTs in Book Seven, so the archetype of attainment of magical wisdom is already pretty much a foregone conclusion for *that* book. >Of course, you veterans on this list might think up more likely plots >for 5 & 6, but the method of extrapolating is, I think, valid. Sorry... (err... "see above"). :-) I don't have any ideas for specific plots. However, I would propose that one plot element is very likely to turn up, as it's been the very crux of the books to date: "the dead guy dun it". Throughout PS/SS, it is generally assumed that Voldemort is dead; in CoS, Riddle is perhaps not dead, but he doesn't exist since he become Voldemort, not to mention that Ginny's death is assumed to be inevitable before Harry enters the Chamber; in PoA, Pettigrew had been seen to die by a dozen people; in GoF, Barty Crouch Jr. was known to be dead and buried. I'll go one step further along those lines: the scene during which each of those characters is introduced is the scene in which it is established that they can't *possibly* be part of the story. I'd therefore propose that if a character is talked about in OotP and they are stated to be incontrovertibly out of the picture, that's who we should be looking out for as the bad guy. :-) -- GulPlum AKA Richard, anxious to hear Admiring Sceptic's sure-fire idea... From aesob at yahoo.com Wed Mar 12 17:54:19 2003 From: aesob at yahoo.com (Alex) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 17:54:19 -0000 Subject: Underage Magic at the Weasley's (and in general) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53648 aesob wrote: > but the tracking system that maria_kirilenko > proposes is just as hypothetic and problematic as my idea that it's > just a poorly conceived plot element that JKR's bending. > >maria_kirilenko replied: > Hypothetic, yes. Problematic - I don't know, but it's not in > contradiction with canon. See, this theory was created in order to > provide an explanation for the problem you brought up - and it does > just that. > > Location-tracked!Spells is a valid theory that is derived from canon, > and while there's a choice between believing in it and thinking that > it's just a "poorly conceived plot element" invented just to harass > Harry - well, I'll pick the theory any day. JKR's writing isn't > sloppy, IMO. The theory is ok, but it's just that. I guess I'm just more of a pessimist! JKR's writing is not as sloppy as other series authors (the Wizard of Oz books certainly come to mind), but there are many other series that are just so much tighter (Lloyd Alexander's Prydain chronicle and even C.S. Lewis' Narnia). She has made mistakes, and I have to believe there are others that she's covering up by bending the rules later down the road (even if she covers them with valid explanations that fit into canon). Again, I'm not attacking anyone, but realistically, we all make mistakes, and JKR wrote books 2, 3 & 4 so quickly, there are bound to be errors. I think one reason that book 5 took so long to write is that she was being more careful with the details because she knows the nitpickers are watching so closely. I know she wrote an outline with book 1 that plans out the entire series, but she's said in interviews (sorry I don't have time to find the citation, but I don't think I dreamt it) that she leaves the details to when she's actually writing it so it's not too tedious. So she is making much of it up as she goes along. Another thing I have to wonder, especially with JKR's level of control (especially with her success and wealth) how much editing the editors are suggesting on book 5. If they can turn over a 255,000 word book from writer to the bookshelves in 5 months, JKR's doing pretty much all of the work herself, including nitpicking the details, and she's human and can make mistakes... aesob: > >>>If underage wizards were > to practice magic at home with other adults nearby (in basements or > their own rooms behind closed doors), they could still be causing > serious harm to > themselves, siblings, pets, etc. The idea that the MoM could track > the rough > location of spells being cast still has frightening big brotherly > consequences > (perhaps more so than just having a way of tracking underage > wizards). >>> maria_kirilenko: > You are right, the tracking is scary. But, evidently, they are able > to do it, as we see from the letter that Harry got in the beginning > of PoA. So how is this damaging to the theory? Obviously some kind of tracking is taking place. Whether it's tracking a specific wizard or tracking magic occuring in a place where it should not be taking place, is irrelevant, I think both ideas are problematic, and they open up too many other cans of worms, like in the below discussion: aesob: > >>>One > would think if there were a way to track magic like this, they could > find out > where any known DE or even Voldemort is by tracking their trail of > magic...>>> maria_kirilenko: > Actually, they don't really need to. DE's leave the Dark Mark when > they go about *marauding*. > > Another explanation is that the MoM only monitors the houses where > students live, which fits canon better. Yes, but if they can monitor students, why not suspected dark wizards, too? We know of no civil rights code in the WW to prevent this, and this would seem an ideal way for aurors and other "police-types" to crack down on dark wizards... The ability to track magic, whether it's wizard or location specific, underage or adult, the ability to do so is very powerful, and potentially very problematic. When Harry gets his letter in CoS, it's pretty darn quick. If the ministry is tracking hundreds or thousands of wizards, that's a lot of work to go through, tracking magic logs or however it's done, then sending a letter off. If there is an ability to track magic usage, wouldn't they be more concerned with potional dark magic violations than someone levitating a cake? That's why I think it was an idea that JKR came up with to advance the plot, but the ramifications of this ability were not fully thought through, so it's gathering dust. It would make much more sense is there really wasn't a restriction on underage magic, if it was just some elaborate scheme to protect Harry, to know what's happening at the Dursley's, but why get him in trouble for something he didn't do? It advances the plot and shows us that Dobby is mischevous, makes us feel sorry for Harry but leaves many questions about whether there's really a way to track magic for others... Have we exhausted this thread yet? > Also, Taryn asked: > Y'know, I've heard the Aunt Marge incident brought up in discussions > of the ban of underage magic multiple times and I /still/ can't > understand why. Harry didn't purposely break the law. It was an > involuntary action, yet people have repeatedly referred to him as > being guilty. >_> > > maria_kirilenko: > Well, I assume that the MoM's "tracking system" (or intelligence, as > it's called in the letter - I don't quite know what to make of that > word) can't tell whether a spell was involuntary or not. Harry did > magic when he wasn't supposed to - and the law is clear on that point. Yep, involuntarily breaking the law is still no excuse for breaking it. It was involuntary, but involuntary manslaughter is still just about as bad as first degree murder. Involuntary or not, Harry was guilty. ~~aesob From hp at plum.cream.org Wed Mar 12 19:14:42 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 19:14:42 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Hagrid's going to die In-Reply-To: <002301c2e8b5$92d2ac40$d44053d1@DJF30D11> References: <4.2.0.58.20030312145643.00985ad0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030312183308.0097f7c0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53649 Grace Saalsaa wrote: >Yes, we do know quite a bit about Hagrid's history - more so than many of >the other characters. But because JKR has painted him with a child-like >persona, I just can't see her killing off Hagrid. It would be like >killing a naive child; one that should be protected rather than >killed. OK, JKR killed off Cedric - but he never came across as an innocent. So how *did* he come across? :-) Which bit of Dumbledore's eulogy made Cedric out to be anything else, and what do we know of him that makes him anything but an innocent? Not to mention that he was killed as an innocent: everything that was going on had nothing to do with him. He was an "innocent" bystander. All in all, I don't think any word describes him better, and conversely, I don't think the word "innocent" applies to anyone else in the books better than it does him. I'd certainly not call Hagrid "an innocent", for starters. :-) >The thing about Hagrid's role that might overlooked is his adult >nature. This one, is partically hidden from Harry but is evident to >Dumbledore, who puts a great deal of trust in Hagrid. Oh, I agree. Wholeheartedly. Which is just one more reason why his death would have narrative as well as symbolic importance. He is *extremely* close to Dumbledore and his plans, but unlike the other folk in Dumbledore's inner circle, he doesn't have the apparent talent or certainly the knowledge to understand when he's being manipulated (e.g. the circumstances in which he got Norbert's egg in PS/SS). In other words, if anyone from Dumbledore's close circle has to buy the farm, Hagrid's the most likely candidate. This book is the logical place for Voldemort to attack Dumbledore's close circle. He has to show, apart from anything, that he can do it. This ups the stakes for Book Six, where all bets are off (and I expect to end in all-but disaster for Dumbledore's team); Book Seven, of course, has to end with Voldemort permanently vanquished. Anything else is quite simply not acceptable. >I think Hagrid doesn't die. Instead his role/function changes. JKR has >already given this bit of foreshadowing. He has a job to talk to the >giants. He becomes something of an ambassador. His job is persuade the Giants to join Dumbledore rather than Voldemort. Once he's persuaded them (which I don't doubt he will do), that function is over. Which comes back to my original point: he's lost his function vis-a-vis Harry, he's lost his function vis-a-vis the Giants. He has no further role to play in the war. The one thing I don't know is who's got it in for Hagrid: the DEs who make contact with the Giants only to find that Hagrid got there first, some element with the Giant community which disagrees with putting their fate in with Dumbledore, or some non-DE element in wizarding society which is simply scared of the Giants. >And as far as his relationship with Harry, I see Harry becoming the one >who saves Hagrid from some calamity. It would be Harry's first time being >the hero and saving someone other than himself or another child. As he >enters this adult world, its logical to expect that he saves an adult this >time, and who better than his good friend Hagrid? Therein lies Hagrid new >function in the story's future. I don't disagree with the reasoning, but I do disagree with the outcome. To date, everyone Harry has quested to save (a group which, incidentally, includes Sirius and Pettigrew, who are hardly children) has survived. Cedric didn't survive, but Harry wasn't on a quest to save him; however, Harry's quest to bring his body back was successful. I expect you can imagine where I'm going with this: the person who rescued Harry in the first place is the first person Harry fails to rescue. Incredibly strong narrative and symbolic importance. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, getting weepy for Hagrid and looking for his large polka-dot hankie From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 12 19:16:56 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 19:16:56 -0000 Subject: The Useless Animagus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53650 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychodudeneo" wrote: > Something's been annoying me. Wizards aren't allowed to choose > their Animagus form, although one would hardly be able to tell > this from the books. > > ...edited... > > "psychodudeneo" I'm pretty sure that JKR implied in an interview that your animal form is a reflection of your personality. Which in turn, implies that you do not get to choose it. I agree that there is indeed a risk not only in the tranformation process itself, but in the animal you become. Someone a while back sited the example of a certain type of fly that lives for only 24 hours. That would certainly be limiting. As another person pointed out, Rita Skeeter's animagus form is great for stealth but it leaves her extremely vulnerable. There are lots of people would squish a bug, who would never kill a small bird. In fact, nearly all birds in all modern countries are protected, so a small bird animagus form would be much preferable to a bug. As a side note; did anyone else catch the clue in Rita Skeeter's name? Just as the name Sirius would tell us that Black was a dog. Skeeter as in mosquito is our secret clue to Rita's animagus form. I now do that voodoo that I do so well; speculate. Now to my point; I really do have one, although, it is pure speculation. As difficult and dangerous as the animagus tranformation process is, and as unreliable as your potential animal form could be, I suspect that there is a way to find out in advance what you will turn into. For example, you could go to someone like McGonagall who specializes in transformation, and she could cast a charm that would reveal your animagus form. Once you know what it is, you could then choose whether to proceed with the animagus transformation process. I think to do it any other way is too much risk, for potentially unusable results. As far as Hernione not pointing out that you can't pick your animagus form, I don't put much stock in that. We know she has great volumes of knowledge, but that knowledge is from a variety of source and to a variety of degrees, and we have no way of knowing that she went as far as reading 'The Encyclopedia of Applied Animal Transformations'. On a side note: I am reminded of the shaman/medicine man brand of magic in which people find a spirit guide, an animal that is their guide to wisdom, their eyes into the unseen, and their protector. Your spirit guide is also a reflection of your personality. It reflects a spiritual nature to which you have an affinity. Although, that might apply more to your Petronus than your animagus form. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From julia at thequiltbug.com Wed Mar 12 19:24:58 2003 From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 11:24:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Hagrid's going to die Message-ID: <20030312112458.9939.h008.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53651 GulPlum wrote: > I don't disagree with the reasoning, but I do disagree with the outcome. To > date, everyone Harry has quested to save (a group which, incidentally, > includes Sirius and Pettigrew, who are hardly children) has survived. > Cedric didn't survive, but Harry wasn't on a quest to save him; however, > Harry's quest to bring his body back was successful. I expect you can > imagine where I'm going with this: the person who rescued Harry in the > first place is the first person Harry fails to rescue. Incredibly strong > narrative and symbolic importance. Me: And which would set up Harry for some serious angst/mental issues, especially if he doesn't properly deal with the whole Cedric thing first. I am still waiting for the boy to break down in tears *just one good time*. I don't count PS/SS in the hospital wing when he wipes his eyes on the sheet after DD tells him about his mom's sacrifice, or in PoA when he bent to tie his shoe so Lupin couldn't see the one or two tears that leaked out over his dad. What bothers me is the boy couldn't even cry when Molly Weasley gave him his first (remembered) maternal hug in GoF and he said something about "he had to screw up his face against the howl of misery that was fighting to get out of him." He needs to have one good cathartic (sp?) cry and let it all out. Even if no one sees him but us (but preferably on Hermione and Ron's shoulders). Calliope http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/ http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 12 20:18:26 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 20:18:26 -0000 Subject: Rowling and Philosophy In-Reply-To: <20030312055832.16478.qmail@web12204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53652 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sherri wrote: > ...edited... > He's (Harry's) human. He has human faults. Which is > why I have wondered many times why she ... make(s) > Voldemort so painfully inhuman. It has always struck me > that Harry is allowed to play 'knight' ... yet Voldemort > isn't allowed to keep ... his humanity. It is easier to hate > a villain if said villain isn't human, but it isn't > easily believable. > > ...edited... > > -Sherri-neko =^.^= bboy_mn: In the world of JKR, things are not aways what they seem. Perhaps we are being shown Voldemort as painfully inhuman as a setup for a time when Voldemort is defeated by a sudden unforseen pang of humanity; sort of, it's always darkest, just before the dawn. We must remember 'the gleam'; we must remember the blood. In Voldemort cruel inhuman reptilian blood now flows the blood of our noble knight. Perhaps Voldemort's inhumanity has been corrupted or contaminated by some small essence good, and that good will cause him to falter, to hesitate at a crital moment, and that will lead to his downfall. Just a thought. bboy_mn From happybean98 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 12 19:26:44 2003 From: happybean98 at yahoo.com (happybean98) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 19:26:44 -0000 Subject: Rowling and Philosophy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53653 This is an attempt to respond to all the posts that have appeared so far on this topic as they seem to be flying fast and furious. First of all, to , I come from the other, Catholic "FU"- Franciscan University. (And I thought that was OUR joke...) I am also interested in the philosophical and religious views of Tolkien. I would have loved to take that class. I'm jealous. I've had to satisfy myself with reading everything written by or about Tolkien. I've found out that a great way to get people talking about philosophy is by bringing up The Lord of the Rings, or Harry Potter for that matter... Tom Wall wrote: "I think that quite a few of the wizards we have met could easily be described as `corrupted' to one degree or another. It depends, I guess, mostly on what you *personally* consider to be the appropriate standard for moral standing and superiority." I respond: Now that you've pointed out these situations, let's refine the definition of "corruption". Let's not get sloppy with this term. Judging whether an action is good or "corrupt" requires us to consider three factors: absolute and objective principles, (ie: killing innocent life is wrong), relative and objective situations, (ie: this innocent person obstructs my will), and subjective motives, (ie: I want to kill this innocent person so I can become immortal/powerful). All three of these factors must be right for an action to be good. Examining which of these factors are wrong in a given situation helps us judge the degree of culpability, (or "corruption") the person has for an action. Let's take Hagrid. Factor 1: Absolute and objective principle: Breaking just civic laws is wrong. Hagrid fails on this factor. He knows he isn't supposed to use magic illegally. Factor 2: Relative and Objective situation: Dudley is being a nuisance (as usual). Hagrid's situation is sympathetic, but does it warrent breaking the law? Sorry Hagrid. Factor 3: Subjective motive: Hagrid wants to give Dudley his come-uppance. Again, understandable but not excusable. I think the key here is that while Hagrid makes a bad choice, the objective principle, (breaking a just civic law), is not as grave as more serious crimes. Let's take Cornelius Fudge's decision to kill Barty Crouch Jr. with a dementor. Factor 1: Absolute and objective principle: Killing someone is wrong. Fudge fails factor one. Factor 2: Relative and Objective situation: Barty Crouch Jr. was a murderer. O.K., maybe this could lessen Fudge's culpability, but was there no other means to control Barty Crouch Jr.? Factor 3: Subjective Motive for the killing. We don't know! No one can ever know why Fudge killed except Fudge (and God). If we presume Fudge killed to protect himself, Fudge has less culpability. If we presume Fudge killed to cover up a Ministry of Magic mistake, Fudge has more culpability. Now lets take Voldemort's decision to kill Cedric Diggory. Factor 1: Absolute and objective principle: Killing someone is wrong. Voldemort fails factor one. Factor 2: Relative and objective situation: Cedric is defenseless against Voldemort. Voldemort fails factor two. Factor 3: Subjective motive: Well, again, we can never know for sure what is going on in Voldemort's heart, but from what Voldemort said, "Kill the spare!", it would seem that he killed solely because Cedric was an unforeseen inconvenience. Voldemort fails Factor 3. The purpose of all this dissection is to point out that while almost all the characters make bad choices throughout the books, it is incorrect to then blanket all of them with the accusation of being equally corrupt. None of the actions you pointed out could be considered "good", but that does not mean that all the characters are equally bad. Voldemort and Fudge both killed, but we can safely presume, based on the three factors, that there is at least a possibility that Fudge may not have equal culpability for his murder. Killing innocent life is always more morally reprehensible than killing in self defense. As for Hagrid, yes he did wrong, but breaking a just civic law is not as grave as taking someone's life. Therefore, you cannot say that Hagrid is "as corrupt as Voldemort". Arthur Weasley did wrong too, but creating an imperfect law out of weakness is still not as grave as killing someone. I disagree that Arthur Weasley is a hypocrite. He did make a law with a loop hole in it, to accomodate his own interest, but we can assume that anyone else with a knowledge of Wizard law could make use of the same loophole. It's not as though he is excepting only himself from the law, he is making a law that will except anyone. Arthur may be guilty of allowing his own interests to distort his law making ability, but he is not a hypocrite. A hypocrite would insist everyone else follow one set of rules, and put up an appearance of following those rules himself, but all the while he would be breaking the rules. I agree with your main point, that our choices determine who we are and that we shouldn't try to shrug off responsibility for our actions by blaming them on the situation. I also agree that almost all of the characters, even some of our favorite ones, make bad choices. Don't we all? But even so, it is overly simplistic to lump Hagrid and Voldemort in the same category of evilness. I like the fact that JKR's characters make choices that force us to examine them. We are encouraged to ask ourselves WHY we still root for Harry even though he breaks the rules? WHY do (most of us) love Hagrid even though he puts students in danger? JKR has expertly crafted these situations and characters that disarm and distract us from our pre-concieved notions. This is a welcome challenge, and a needed one! Kathleen From patricia at obscure.org Wed Mar 12 19:56:06 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 14:56:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Useless Animagus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53654 On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Steve wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychodudeneo" > wrote: > > Something's been annoying me. Wizards aren't allowed to choose > > their Animagus form, although one would hardly be able to tell > > this from the books. > > > > ...edited... > > > > "psychodudeneo" > > I'm pretty sure that JKR implied in an interview that your animal form > is a reflection of your personality. Which in turn, implies that you > do not get to choose it. There is a difference, though, between an Animagus form being unchosen and it being random. I'm not at all surprised that a wizard or witch's animagus form tends to be useful to what he or she is choosing to do with the rest of his or her life. A person's profession, hobbies, friends, and so forth are all chosen in large part based on that person's character: what they value, like, dislike, are talented at, etc. And those are exactly the same things that I would expect to influence an animagus form. So while the form may not be consciously chosen, it is very likely to fit neatly into the rest of the wizard's life, assuming he has chosen a path that actually suits him. I would suggest that a would-be assassin whose animagus form turns out to be a rhinoceros is probably generally lacking in stealth and may have chosen the wrong profession. It is also possible that one's sub-conscious self-image affects the animagus form as well. So in addition to the fact that Sirius is powerful and loyal, his awareness of the meaning of his name ("Dog Star") may have influenced the determination of his animagus form. > I agree that there is indeed a risk not only in the tranformation > process itself, but in the animal you become. Someone a while back > sited the example of a certain type of fly that lives for only 24 > hours. That would certainly be limiting. Peter Pettigrew didn't seem to be limited by the normal lifespan of a common rat, despite his form, so I wouldn't expect a mayfly animagus to be vulnerable to the rapid onset of old age either. However, a mayfly (or any very small animal) would seem to be exceptionally vulnerable to predators. I'm a bit surprised Rita Skeeter has never gotten picked off by a bird, considering how much time she seems to spend in beetle form. I suppose it would be a bit of an anti-climax, though. ;) ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From alician at bigpond.com Wed Mar 12 20:20:40 2003 From: alician at bigpond.com (Alicia) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 20:20:40 -0000 Subject: What do the Weird Sisters sound like? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53655 The Weird Sisters are "a very famous musical group" who cause "wild excitement" when the students learn they are coming to the Yule Ball (GOF, ch 22). The band members are "all extremely hairy, and dressed in black robes that had been artfully ripped and torn" (GOF, ch23). They have a "lead guitarist" named Kirley (QTTA, p36). So far, so typical rock band. But... Their instruments consist of "[a] set of drums, several guitars, a lute, a cello and some bagpipes" (GOF, ch23). We know that electricity and magic don't mix, so those guitars aren't electric. They don't need amps anyway because sound can be "magically magnified" (eg McGonagall's announcement, COS, ch16). Personally, I think The Weird Sisters are band with a name, an image and a lead guitarist, rather than a loose collective of musicians who occasionally get together for fun, so they seem to have used some ideas from muggle rock, such as presentation and marketing. I also imagine they would be using the scales and musical forms we are familiar with, nothing atonal or experimental - they seem like a good band to have at the Yule Ball. I just have the feeling we might think they're more of a folk band. I've just been to a folk festival, and some of the acts had me wondering. So my question is: what do other people think The Weird Sisters sound like? Alicia, who thinks Celestina Warbeck would sound like the WW Celine Dion. From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 12 21:06:18 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 13:06:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Useless Animagus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030312210618.42755.qmail@web40513.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53656 buddhacat wrote: psychodudeneo wrote: Every Animagus we've seen so far has been perfectly adapted to that > wizard's needs. buddhacat wrote: That's a good point. But, even if forms are not chosen, which came first, the animal form or the profession? I mean, what if Rita became a reporter because it suited her insect form? And maybe Minerva is used to inflitrate Muggle areas because she can turn into a cat, not the other way around. So maybe the needs are perfectly adapted to the animal form, rather than the form being perfectly adapted to the needs. Me: I have a few things to say about this. First, I agree somewhat with the adapting the needs to the animal arguement. But, the way I see it is that the animal is a representation of the person's personality. McGonagall is elegant, sleek, well groomed, soft spoken, and occassionally tempermental--so she became a cat. Peter Pettigrew is a little jerk who betrayed his friends--so he became a rat. James was proud and confident--so he became a stag. After having a hard time coming up with the dog comparison for Sirius, he was a loyal, best friend to James--so of course he became a dog, man's best friend.:) ~Kathryn --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Wed Mar 12 21:17:46 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 15:17:46 -0600 Subject: Dumbledore not corrupted (was Re: Rowling and Philosophy) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53657 dimercury7 wrote: "Here's the obvious next question... There are alot of powerful GOOD wizards out there... why hasn't the power corrupted them?" I think one quote from SS/PS is particularly relevant here; it's from the American paperback, page 11: "'You flatter me,' said Dumbledore calmly. 'Voldemort had powers I will never have.' 'Only because you're too - well - NOBLE to use them." (JKR's emphasis) What this suggests to me is that Dumbledore has willingly TURNED DOWN powers that he could otherwise have posessed. This, IMO, is the secret to his non-corruption. Dumbledore has power, yes, but he does not SEEK power, neither for its own sake or for his own. Dumbledore only seeks the measure of power he needs in order to perform his tasks. If you'll allow me a slightly off-topic analogy, Dumbledore is like Gandalf when he refuses the Ring: Both of them turn down powers which could corrupt them. Hobbit-guy, who loves making analogies to LOTR even when it's not strictly allowed. "You haven't been getting into the Gaffer's home brew again, have you?" "No... Well, yes, but that's beside the point." -Frodo and Bilbo Baggins, Fellowship of the Rings Extended Edition DVD From patgruenke at cloudnet.com Wed Mar 12 19:50:06 2003 From: patgruenke at cloudnet.com (gruenke) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 19:50:06 -0000 Subject: Harry and Hermione being siblings... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53658 While Harry and Hermione being siblings is a fascinating idea, I don't think this will be something that JKR pulls out of her... hat! It would be just a little too "Star Wars." "Star Wars" and the Harry series have many classic story elements in common already. I don't think she would pull out a plot twist that borrows too heavily from that source. So, I don't think Voldemort is going to turn out to be Harry's father, either! :-) Just my two knuts from a newbie! Pat From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Mar 12 21:44:23 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 16:44:23 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] What do the Weird Sisters sound like? Message-ID: <197.17080d92.2ba10437@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53659 In a message dated 3/12/2003 2:57:23 PM Central Standard Time, alician at bigpond.com writes: > We know that electricity and magic don't mix, so those guitars aren't > electric. They don't need amps anyway because sound can be "magically > magnified" (eg McGonagall's announcement, COS, ch16). > > If they are the WW equivlent of a rock band then I think that they do use electric guitars. They just could be powered magically. As for who they sound like? I couldn't even imagine. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 12 22:09:59 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 14:09:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What do the Weird Sisters sound like? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030312220959.75019.qmail@web40508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53660 Alicia wrote: So far, so typical rock band. But... Their instruments consist of "[a] set of drums, several guitars, a lute, a cello and some bagpipes" (GOF, ch23). So my question is: what do other people think The Weird Sisters sound like? Me: I don't know how many people have heard of this band, but if I had to guess what The Weird Sisters sound like, I'd guess they sound like the band Flogging Molly (Haha, Molly Weasly......). They're an Irish punk band with the usual band set up (guitars, bass, drums, singer) but they also have bagpipes and occassionaly other traditional instruments. So as far as muggle music, this is the closest I can think of: current rock with a traditional side too. ~Kathryn --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 12 22:13:29 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 22:13:29 -0000 Subject: Underage Magic at the Weasley's (and in general) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53661 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > aesob wrote: > > but the tracking system that maria_kirilenko > > proposes is just as hypothetic and problematic as my idea that > > it's just a poorly conceived plot element that JKR's bending. > > bboy_mn: Let's take a close look at the law, or at least as close as we are able given the limitations. "Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery" I want to draw everyone's attention to the word REASONABLE. This would imply that the decree is NOT the - "Decree for the ABSOLUTE Restriction of Underage Sorcery" I have said before that we are dealing with a range of 'crimes' when we discuss this. Some degrees are merely mischief that hardly warrant action by the Ministry. Others, especially if they involve Muggle or do any kind of damage, are much more severe and of the nature of Gross Misdemeanors and borderline felonies. I think underage magic in magic space (the magic world) in ways that are contained and supervised (to some extent) are not worth the Ministries attention unless the reach the level of public nuisance and even then it remains a minor problem. We see many examples of this, underage magic in the magic world in the form of simple inconsequential spells; lumos, etc.... Anything in the Muggle world and especially if it effect Muggles in anyway is an event of primary importance. Since the Decree is for the REASONABLE restriction of underage magic, we have to assume that it has some built-in flexibility. Some means by which conditional use is allowed. -end this part- > >maria_kirilenko replied: > > > > Location-tracked!Spells is a valid theory that is derived from > > canon, ...edited... (or) ...it's just a "poorly conceived plot > element" invented just to harass Harry.... > ...substantial edit... > > aesob bboy_mn: How many examples of the tracking of magic do we have in the series so far? I can only think of one; although I'm open to someone proving me wrong. Since Harry is the only example of magical tracking we have, then we could assume that they are specifically tracking him at the Dursleys. And given that fact that he lives among muggles, any magic at his location becomes significant. The fact that the Ministry detected a spell taking place at Privet Drive and that they did not identify the source of the spell tells me that they can't track specific people under normal circumstance. Regarding the blowing up of Aunt Marge, while the Ministy's Accidental Magic Reversal Squad didn't get to Privet Drive soon enough to catch Harry, it is implied that they did get there very fast. That could imply both specific and/or general monitoring. Although, I lean toward the Ministry specifically monitoring this, the Dursleys, location. If there is any ongoing monitoring of the magic world or the presents of magic in the world then I would assume that they are looking for trouble spots, places where there has been an unusual surge of magic like a battle breaking out or a magical catastrophe. I think as an illustration, magic tracking would be like weather storm tracking; it ignores the general residual 'noise' and focuses on high density concentrations of weather (or in our case, magic) phenomena. Just a few thought. bboy_mn From AdairFletch at bellsouth.net Wed Mar 12 22:12:17 2003 From: AdairFletch at bellsouth.net (spikespiegelfletch) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 22:12:17 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore not corrupted (was Re: Rowling and Philosophy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53662 Ok, I want to add some quick thoughts here. First off, the whole Voldemort being too inhuman as a foil to Harry's "knight," is kind of what I think Rowling is going for. I've read numerous interviews with her, and she keep comparing Voldemort to Hitler. And if I may say so, Hitler is probably one of the most inhuman and unfathomable figures in recent history. She does give Lord V a past, a reason he may have become the way he is (i.e. his father leaving his mother, growing up in an orphange). But she also always emphasizes the point that it is our choices that make us who we are. Lord V definitely chose the wrong path. And I'll agree that he can be very cliche-evil, but according to Rowling, he is supposed to be the embodiment of what she sees as evil. He is the force behind characters (whom I personally hate) such as Pettigrew and Crouch Jr. If Voldemort is destroyed, metaphorically wise, then it sets evil back quite a bit. Harry is also not perfect and unflawed. The kid does have a certain amount of pride, and he can anger quickly (depending on who is provoking him, i.e. Snape/Malfoy). He also doesn't always do the smart thing - in book two, if he had told Dumbledore everything from the beginning (hearing the voice, etc.), a lot may have been prevented. But in the end, Harry was the only one who could face Tom Riddle, being the only other Parseltongue, but he has Dumbledore's help in the form of Fawkes. But Harry is also pure, because if you read Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, it states that a phoenix's song lends courage to those pure of heart. In book two and four, Fawkes's song strengthens Harry, so we are led to believe that Harry is uncorrupted. Through books one through four, Harry is still growing up and learning. Except of course, until the end of book four, where he just seems a heck of a lot older. But he is still the foil to Voldemort's character. And here's where I get to Dumbledore. I too believe Dumbledore is not corrupted, is meant to be the "embodiment of good" that Harry strives for. He is Harry's "guardian angel" if you will, the all- knowing protector. But Dumbledore doesn't seem as perfect in book four as he does in say Philospher's Stone, he doesn't know everything. Harry has to do some things on his own. And that's why I believe Dumbledore will eventually die - it will leave Harry utterly alone to face Voldemort himself. And as for Harry, compared to Dumbledore, Harry doesn't realize his own self-worth, his own amazing goodness. Look at what he does in the second task, and in Chamber of Secrets when he saves Ginny, and what he does for Sirius. He's completely selfless when he needs to be, but he still doubts himself. Dumbledore is Harry's example, but Harry is the one meant to defeat Voldemort. He just hasn't grown into his own yet. And I still think the gleam in Dumbledore's eyes is for the fact that Voldemort can now be killed. All his experiments won't mean anything anymore with his new body. He's completely mortal. Brittany From patricia at obscure.org Wed Mar 12 22:19:27 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 17:19:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What do the Weird Sisters sound like? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53663 On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Alicia wrote: > So my question is: what do other people think The Weird Sisters sound > like? I've always imagined they sound something like Rasputina . I'm sure that's not quite right, though, as Rasputina has only cello, vocals and drums. Maybe The Weird Sisters are more more like Marilyn Manson's remix versions of Rasputina songs. I haven't actually heard the remixes, so I can't say for certain. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From hphgrwlca at yahoo.com Wed Mar 12 22:19:45 2003 From: hphgrwlca at yahoo.com (Christine Acker) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 14:19:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hermione aging via Time Turner Message-ID: <20030312221946.98960.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53664 Mark D. wrote: > (It also makes it less > creepy that Krum at 18 yo is so smitten by Hermione > at 15 yo.) David wrote: I find it hard to understand why this should be > thought creepy. > Nobody at Hogwarts seems to mind the age difference, > whatever other > objections they may have. She may be 14 for most of > GOF, of > course ;-) . I write: This has probably been said before, but I would like to point out that Ron only said "just 18 OR SO." It is perfectly conceivable that Krum is seventeen, and probably more accurate. That makes it a two or three year age difference between Krum and Hermione. Plus, Hermione is extremely mature for her age. Christine, who loves how people add clauses after typing their names __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com From AdairFletch at bellsouth.net Wed Mar 12 22:38:39 2003 From: AdairFletch at bellsouth.net (spikespiegelfletch) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 22:38:39 -0000 Subject: Why Hagrid's going to die In-Reply-To: <20030312112458.9939.h008.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53665 GulPlum wrote: >To date, everyone Harry has quested to save (a group which, > incidentally, > includes Sirius and Pettigrew, who are hardly children) has > survived. > Cedric didn't survive, but Harry wasn't on a quest to save > him; > however, > Harry's quest to bring his body back was successful. I > expect > you can > imagine where I'm going with this: the person who rescued > Harry > in the > first place is the first person Harry fails to rescue. > Incredibly strong > narrative and symbolic importance. Calliope wrote: > And which would set up Harry for some serious angst/mental > issues, > especially if > he doesn't properly deal with the whole Cedric thing first. I > am > still waiting > for the boy to break down in tears *just one good time*. > He needs to have one good cathartic (sp?) cry and let it > all out. Even > if no one sees him but us (but preferably on Hermione and > Ron's > shoulders). Ok, I'm just gonna jump into this conversation. Before I address the most recent post, I do want to state that I agree with the importance of Hagrid being the one to die. I've been thinking it about it for awhile, and even if it isn't Hagrid, it will obviously be someone major. Hagrid is the only one that can die without leaving a huge gaping hole in the plot: besides his mother's whereabouts and his relationship with Maxime, we know everything about Hagrid. The Weasleys not so much, and it won't be one of the trio. Sirius and Lupin are way too important and Rowling has stated herself Lupin will appear in books six and seven. Now that I've given my logic on why I think it may be Hagrid, I find the idea of Harry's success with saving those he is on a quest to save a very good point. Cedric was kind of just a passerby to all the crap Harry has had to deal with since the age of one, his death was unavoidable and pointless. Harry could not have saved him, Harry didn't know what was going on. And I think that's where book four leaves us, Harry is kind of just going to let things happen. He knows he can't control what Lord Voldemort does. But he'll be there to meet it. To fight it. I hear so many theories that Harry is "shell-shocked" after book four, and though valid, I find I can't agree with them. So in adressing the most recent post, I honestly think it would disturb me to see Harry just break down. His childhood has taught him to just kind of suck it up, and keep going, otherwise he never would have survived emotionally with the Dursleys. Unhealthy though this is, Harry doesn't know how to deal with strong emotions such as love and grief very well, anger he's got down, but not the real lasting emotions. He's not affectionate, and not in the macho way that Ron is not affectionate. I think Ron could show love to his family, just not Hermione (i.e. all the times she hugs him, and he's embarrassed). Harry is nervous about it, almost scared of it - he would be giving over quite a bit of himself, and his independence is something I think he values greatly. So not only would Hagrid's death be symbolic, it would force these feelings on him, he'd have to learn to deal with them, and subsequently grow up some. It would be a turning point in Harry's development. Personally, though it may be healthy for Harry to just let it all out, as long as he doesn't, I know he's still fighting. And that's one of the most important things about his character. His ability to just keep going. Hagrid's death would test that ability. I'm waiting for something to make Harry snap, more than have him break down. Something that may make him go searching for Voldemort himself. But that's just speculation. Anyway there are my ideas on the topic. Brittany From hphgrwlca at yahoo.com Wed Mar 12 22:27:13 2003 From: hphgrwlca at yahoo.com (Christine Acker) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 14:27:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Harry and Hermione being siblings Message-ID: <20030312222713.4302.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53666 Karywick wrote: "What about Harry and Hermione as half siblings? snip Maybe he fathered Hermione a little before Harry. We don't know how long Lily and James were married before Harried was begat." I reply: This may be what Rowling did, but seeing as children are included in the demographics for the books, I don't think she will be exploring ANYTHING to do with sex or sexual immorality, like an adulterous affair by one of the most important characters in the books(kissing excepted). This also bolsters David's opinion that Hermione was not sleeping with Viktor Krum. Christine, who has an autographed copy of the same book Greicy is reading, Ultimate Unofficial Guide to Harry Potter, and will gladly tell the story behind it if anyone cares to hear it, and was absolutely flabbergasted by some of the things the book pointed out, and also promised the lady from whom she got it that she would recommend it, and therefore commences recommending __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 00:45:27 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 00:45:27 -0000 Subject: Rowling and Philosophy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53667 Tom Wall wrote: > > >>>Thus far,we don't know that Riddle betrayed any > friends. Sure, he's a killer, but has he actually pulled a Judas or > a Lucifer? Uh, not of which we know. Remember, Dante placed > Judas Isacariot, Brutus and Cassius in Lucifer's three mouths at > the center of the ninth circle of the inferno, which contained the > traitors. Treason, the betrayal of a trust, is a pretty hefty crime. > Pippen responded: > Of course we do! > > " I was sympathetic, I was kind. Ginny simply *loved* me. *No > one's ever understood me like you, Tom ... I'm so glad I've got > this diary to confide in ... It's like having a friend I can carry > around in my pocket...." -- CoS ch17. > > Ginny certainly was betrayed. Well, I think what Tom meant was that Voldemort has never betrayed a *friend* like Wormtail has. Sure, he used Ginny and she was betrayed, but that doesn't really make Voldemort the traitor in the same sense that Wormtail is. Ginny was never a friend of Voldemort (as much as she might have though otherwise at the time). By this I mean that from the very first moment he and Ginny 'met' he had every intention on using her . He never actually trusted *her* and then decided to go against this trust- like Wormtail does. We have every reason to believe that Wormtail *really* was a friend of James Potter, and had been for years. So when he betrays him it becomes a very serious violation and offence. Whereas, in contrast, Voldemort uses Ginny from Day One. So, yes, he betrays the trust she has implored in him, but I think that because he never trusted her to begin with makes his 'betrayal' less of the serious betrayal we see in Wormtail's actions. A reason why we might never see Voldemort actually betray someone who he once trusted is because that would mean Voldemort would actually have to trust someone. He would have to count someone as a friend. He would have to count someone as an *equal.* Voldemort believes himself above everyone else, and I doubt if he would *ever* count someone as an equal to him. Everyone who he surrounds himself with is expected to be loyal to him, but get nothing in return. Look at his treatment of his Death Eaters. People who he actually calls *family.* I see no level of trust in those people at all. Despite what Wormtail does for him during GoF Voldemort has every intention of feeding him to Nagini once he has lived out his usefulness. I don't think we'll ever see Voldemort act the traitor (at this point in the series anyway), mainly because we have no indication that he is capable of being someone's friend to begin with. Yes, I believe that he has betrayed many people, Ginny and Wormtail are both obvious examples that come to mind. Both of those people put their trust in Voldemort, and in Ginny's case Voldemort actually pretended to be her friend. BUT, IMO, seeing as he never actually did care for her it's not the same traitor action that Tom is refering to with references to Judas and Lucifer etc. All those people were actually 'good' to begin with, then they decided to become 'evil' in direct opposition to the people they once trusted. And to a related matter, could Voldemort's intended sparing of Lily's life perhaps suggest something? By that I mean that if he indeed counted her as a *friend* could that explain why he was reluctant to kill her. If this is indeed so, then it would be the one instance of true betrayal by Voldemort- killing someone he once trusted, and perhaps did at the time. It would be extremely ironic if this ended up being the case, as after all, if he didn't kill Lily, then Harry wouldn't have had her protection, he would've died and then Voldemort would never have suffered any of the problems imbued upon him because of the silly little Potter boy. I suppose what this means is that the minute Voldemort actually is the 'traitor' (in the sense that he's actually going against what he once believed) he suddenly loses in catastrophic proportions. Of course, there is very little indication that Voldemort ever trusted Lily. In fact, everything he says about her is pretty much derogatory, so I don't necessarily believe that it is the case, but still. ~<(Laurasia)>~ From hp at plum.cream.org Thu Mar 13 01:16:56 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 01:16:56 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What do the Weird Sisters sound like? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030313005821.0096d560@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53668 Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: >On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Alicia wrote: > > > So my question is: what do other people think The Weird Sisters sound > > like? > >I've always imagined they sound something like Rasputina >. I'm sure that's not quite right, though, as >Rasputina has only cello, vocals and drums. From the descriptions, it seems that The Weird Sisters are an instrumental band (at least, there is no indication of any vocals during their performance). Perhaps because of the age I am, I am an (embarrassed) fan of 70s Prog Rock and bizarre instrumentation for those bands was not a surprise. I also happen to be a fan of classical chamber music, so my tastes are considered by most people to be exceptionally strange. Last year, I attended a concert which featured (without amplification) a combination of the following (though not all at once): "classical" guitar, steel-string guitar, banjo, cello, double-bass, harpsichord, marimba (a kind of wooden xylophone, for those who don't know), limited drumkit (two snares, a bass, a couple of cymbals) but lots of everyday percussive objetcs (bottles, kettles, etc), and for the wind/brass section: clarinet, trombone, tuba, trumpet and something which wasn't, but sounded like, bagpipes. This was NOT experimental classical music; it was very much rock music with a rock beat and rock chord progressions. It was absolutely magnificent. At least I thought so, and the couple of hundred people who were there with me thought so too. :-) Don't ask me to describe the sound. Most of what they played were their own weird versions of classical standards, although there were also one or two compositions of their own. All I can say is that you haven't lived unless you've heard the William Tell Overture played on banjo, double-bass, marimba and trumpet with a bagpipe-like drone underneath it all! BTW the group didn't have a name, but was composed of several individuals who *do* have a certain notoriety in appropriate musical circles, and apparently they're hoping to record something this year if a label takes them on. I imagine the Weird Sisters to sound much like they did. I suggested that they might to get in touch with JKR to get permission to use that name but I don't expect them to. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, a strange guy who likes strange music From AdairFletch at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 13 00:18:55 2003 From: AdairFletch at bellsouth.net (spikespiegelfletch) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 00:18:55 -0000 Subject: Concerns for Harry's Well-Being In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53669 Anne wrote: > * What doesn't kill you makes you stronger -- living with the > Dursleys for almost 10 years made Harry touigher, more self- > reliant, > and possibly more introspective than if he'd lived with > people who treated him in a more loving way. He might actually be > *too* self-reliant sometimes, but now he at least has Ron & > Hermione > to help him figure things out re: Voldemort and other baddies. Ok, I just want to add my own thoughts to this, as I too, have read and reread the beginning of Philosopher's Stone, and thought a great deal about Harry's early childhood. I haven't read the archives on this, so I don't know what has been said before, so I ask you to bear with me. The amazing thing to me about Harry has always been his ability to keep going, survive, if you will, and not let doubt or low self-esteem (I hate that term) get in the way of what he feels he has to do. Most children in his situation would have come out a lot more traumatized, their character destroyed in many ways. Harry is still good, kind, and sensitive, though I agree his upbringing would have given him more independence. But another thought I always have, and maybe why I love the Weasley family for Harry, and support those who wish to see Harry and Ginny together, is that Harry has never, not once, had someone to say "I love you," to him after the age of one. Never. That just... I can't fathom that. Anne wrote: > * Somehow, being with blood relatives may have offered him more > protection against LV than if he'd lived with non-relatives. > * The fact that Harry was living in the midst of lots of Muggles, > rather than in a community full of wizards, might have made it > harder > for LV to find him, and/or or easier for DD to set up magical > wards > around the Dursleys' house to protect Harry. Not to mention we > suspect at least one witch or wizard was placed in the vicinity to > help keep an eye on him (the Mrs. Figg theory). I don't particularly agree with this, somehow. I agree that Ms. Figg was probably there to watch over him, maybe even his secret keeper, like so many have proposed. But I do think Voldemort always knew he was staying with the Dursleys, if you read his speech to the Death Eaters at the end of book four. In summary, he basically says that Harry has had an ancient form of protection not even he knows about, and that he (Lord V) can't touch Harry while Harry is at his relatives. I also don't know if the fact that Harry is staying with blood-relatives is relevant, I don't see any proof for or against that theory. Anne wrote: > * The Dursleys, for whatever reason (perhaps we will find out in > OoP), seem to have a pathological fear of all things magical. They > refused to tell Harry not only the truth about his parents, but > also > the truth about him being a wizard. So Harry spent 10 years > completely unaware of both his own fame within the wizarding world > and the reasons for his unusual abilities. Dumbledore, knowing > that > Harry would eventually have to face Voldemort again (and again, > and > again), may have thought it was better for Harry NOT to grow up > being > fawned over as "The Boy Who Lived". (viz. the reaction of various > wizards he runs into during his childhood, e.g. the man in the > green > cloak who bows to him in the bakery). I don't know about this as well. We do know Dumbledore has not told Harry everything about Halloween 1981, which is obvious in what he says to Harry at the end of Philosopher's Stone. And we know Dumbledore didn't want Harry growing up in the limelight (Chapter one of Philosopher's Stone). But Hagrid apparently thought Harry would know he was a wizard and that his parents went to Hogwarts when Hagrid went to pick him up from the house on a rock in Philosopher's Stone. So, I don't think Dumbledore meant for Harry to grow up not knowing anything, though he probably realized the Dursleys were more prone to let Harry remain in the dark. Dumbledore has never lied to Harry, but I do think he hides just about everything Harry would find important about his identity (i.e. we, and Harry, know virtually nothing about his parents or ancestors, and also where the Gryffindor's heir theory comes from). And as for my theory on Dumbledore, I think he'll pull a Yoda, and die, leaving Harry completely on his own (read the Pensieve chapter in Goblet of Fire: Rowling goes on and on about how Harry notices how old Dumbledore is looking now). Anyway, back to the Dursleys. I do think it probable that the Dursleys may be the ones to somehow have magic involved later in their lives, as Rowling stated in an interview. Dudley would be an amusing choice for me, I would like to see Harry's reaction, and Dudley's struggles at Hogwarts (think how Malfoy would react to Harry's cousin!). But I don't really think that likely. For whatever reason, the Dursleys do have a morbid fear of magic, and yet they've kept Harry all these years. That doesn't really add up. Unless Dumbledore somehow threatened them in that letter he left with the one-year-old Harry on their doorstep, there has to be something else making the Dursleys let Harry stay. I don't think it's a last stab at human decency. I suppose we'll have to wait and see. As for the Petunia is a squib theory: I find that unsupportable. She's muggle-born, like Lily. Meaning she's just a muggle. She's have to be a muggle with wizard parents in order to be considered a squib. So anyway, there are my thoughts on the topic. Guess we'll know when the Harry Potter Goddess herself (a.k.a. J.K. Rowling) lets us know. Brittany From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Thu Mar 13 01:21:21 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 01:21:21 -0000 Subject: I Spot A Hound (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53670 Here's a filk that does for the word "hound" what Nicole's "Cup of Fire" filk (#53359) did for the word "name"...... I Spot A Hound (PoA, Chap. 4) (to the tune of I Get Around by the Beach Boys) Hear a MIDI at: http://www.planetz.net/midi/artist1.shtml#b THE SCENE: Flourish & Blotts. HARRY is unnerved by a picture of a large black dog on a volume titled Death Omens. The 100 or so copies of the Monster Book of Monsters interrupt their scuffling to serve as backup CHORUS HARRY & CHORUS OF "MONSTER BOOKS" Hound hound spot a hound I/He spot a hound Yeah Spot a hound hound hound I spot a hound I/He spot a hound Spot a hound hound hound I/He spot a hound When leavin' town Spot a hound hound hound I/He spot a hound A malign canine Spot a hound hound hound I/He spot a hound It's got a Dark Art whine HARRY I got a list of magic books that have got to be bought So I take my galleons to Flourish & Blotts The Monster Books scrap in a large iron cage And not a one of them seems to be on the same page HARRY & CHORUS I/He spot a hound Spot a hound hound hound I/He spot a hound When leavin' town Spot a hound hound hound I/He spot a hound A malign canine Spot a hound hound hound I/He spot a hound It's got a Dark Art whine Spot a hound hound hound I/He spot a hound I/He spot a hound Hound Spot a hound hound hound oooo Wah wa ooo Wah wa ooo Wah wa ooo HARRY The manager has texts on the Future Unfogged But the Death Omen book is adorned with a dog Now, the mutt I saw surely must have been a stray If it ain't though, I'm headin' for some real dog days HARRY & CHORUS I spot a hound Spot a hound hound hound I/He spot a hound When leavin' town Spot a hound hound hound I/He spot a hound A malign canine Spot a hound hound hound I/He spot a hound It's got a Dark Art whine Spot a hound hound hound I/He spot a hound I spot a hound Hound Ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah Hound hound spot a hound I spot a hound Yeah Spot a hound hound hound I/He spot a hound Spot a hound hound hound I/He spot a hound Wah wa ooo Spot a hound hound hound I/He spot a hound Oooo ooo ooo Spot a hound hound hound I/He spot a hound Ahh ooo ooo Spot a hound hound hound I/He spot a hound Wah wa ooo Spot a hound hound hound I/He spot a hound Wah wa ooo (Exit HARRY, with his purchases ? the CHORUS fades out the MONSTER BOOKS resume their brawling) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 01:25:50 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 17:25:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Useless Animagus / Can form be chosen? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030313012550.45671.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53671 psychodudeneo: > Something's been annoying me. > Wizards aren't allowed to choose their > Animagus form, although one would > hardly be able to tell this from > the books. > > Every Animagus we've seen so far > has been perfectly adapted to that > wizard's needs. Prongs and Padfoot > were strong enough to keep Moony > in line, with Wormtail useful for > things such as deactivating the > whomping willow. > > Minerva's cat form is ideal for > sneaking around Muggle areas > unnoticed. > > Rita's bug form was perfect for > her spy routine. > > To drive the point home, I hope > that we finally see a long- > awaited "Absolutely Useless Animags". > I'm talking about an animal for > completely and utterly unfit for > whatever the Wizard had been > planning on doing. > > For instance, an assasin who has > the ability to become a 3 ton male > rhinoceros. > > A mountaineer who becomes 570 > pounds of sea lion. > > A fierce criminal who becomes a dodo. So far, there has been no reason we would have heard of such a non-event as the discovery of an Absolutely Useless Animagus. A wizard or witch whose Animagus form serves not his/her purpose isn't likely to perform the Animagus spell or advertise the fact that all his/her efforts were for naught. But......your scenarios would certainly be in keeping with JKR's sense of humor so yes, it's possible that we are being set up for a punchline in the future books that would involve an Animagus unexpectedly frustrated. ("My Animagus form is a WHAT!?! Doh!") Caius Marcius: > I take this as canonic evidence > that Animagi are able to select > the creature whose form they adapt > (and I have the filk to prove it!) > > http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/ > marauders.htm#Whatever_Creature_We_Deem Hmm...what do you make of this? ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Q: If you were Animagus, what kind of animal would you be? JKR: I'd like to be an otter that's my favourite animal. It would be depressing if I turned out to be a slug or something. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ source: http://www.scholastic.com/ harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm Petra a n :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com From urbana at charter.net Thu Mar 13 01:29:13 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 01:29:13 -0000 Subject: The Useless Animagus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53672 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "buddhacat" wrote: > But, even if forms are not chosen, which came > first, the animal form or the profession? I mean, what if Rita > became a reporter because it suited her insect form? And maybe > Minerva is used to inflitrate Muggle areas because she can turn into > a cat, not the other way around. So maybe the needs are perfectly > adapted to the animal form, rather than the form being perfectly > adapted to the needs. AHA!! Good pick-up. As a journalist myself, I understand Rita's urge (some might say obsession) to try to find out *everything* about Harry. If she was already an animagus when she finished Hogwarts, it might have occurred to her that being a beetle would enable her to gain access to places where she could act as the proverbial "fly on the wall"... or in her case, "beetle on the ledge". Being a journalist (albeit a "yellow journalist" IMO) would enable Rita to use her animagus form to her own very distinct advantage. Of course to really be a fly on the wall she'd have to be, well, a fly. > > Against this theory is the giveaway names, Sirius and Lupin and so > on. I'm reminded of an old joke by Dennis Leary: "Lou Gehrig. Died > of Lou Gehrig's disease. How'd he not see THAT one coming?" So perhaps Rita Skeeter should be a mosquito?? :-) Does the U.K. even have mosquitoes?? I certainly hope not; they are horrid creatures whose sole purpose in life is to suck blood out of humans. On second thought that sounds just like Rita. Anne U (who would probably be a hippo) From pepsiboy71 at mac.com Thu Mar 13 01:51:26 2003 From: pepsiboy71 at mac.com (Pepsiboy) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 20:51:26 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What do the Weird Sisters sound like? In-Reply-To: <197.17080d92.2ba10437@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53673 On 3/12/03 4:44 PM, "Meliss9900 at aol.com" wrote: > In a message dated 3/12/2003 2:57:23 PM Central Standard Time, > alician at bigpond.com writes: > >> We know that electricity and magic don't mix, so those guitars aren't >> electric. They don't need amps anyway because sound can be "magically >> magnified" (eg McGonagall's I don't know about sounding like, but as long as they don't look like the Spice Girls, I'm okay...;-) From urbana at charter.net Thu Mar 13 02:09:04 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 02:09:04 -0000 Subject: What do the Weird Sisters sound like? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53674 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Pepsiboy wrote: > > I don't know about sounding like, but as long as they don't look like the > Spice Girls, I'm okay...;-) I think the Weird Sisters sound like The Donnas... but look like The Muppets ;-) Anne U (though in the role of Celestine Warbeck I see Cyndi Lauper!) From Malady579 at hotmail.com Thu Mar 13 03:15:28 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 03:15:28 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Harry as Alexander the Great Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53675 It was sunset, and life in a house on bay front property was getting a bit nervous. With the forecasters predicting, with unprecedented precision, a Hurricane named Jo coming toward the area, the safe house was attempting to organize itself. Even though the storm was not expected for some time, there is an old saying one should always be prepared. Grey Wolf and Pip were bringing in the many groceries and sundries that Sneaky just bought in bulk that they needed like candles, canned goods, pop tarts, and duct tape - can't have a theory appliance without lots and lots of duct tape. Sneaky was walking down the back stairs after taking Melody her requested box of double stuffed Oreos, canister of hot chocolate mix, and plaid umbrella. "Here. Where should we put the 24 pack of 'D' batteries?" Grey Wolf asked tossing Pip the lot of Duracells. "Next to the battery operated radio I imagine. Do you have the set of Maglite flashlights in your bag?" Pip asked. "Oh Sneaky," she said seeing the house elf come back in the kitchen, "is Mel coming down to help?" "Yeah," Sneaky said hopping up her tall footstool to put the columns of cans of soup away. "She's got a boy up there." "Who's got who where?" Grey Wolf asked crossing the kitchen to the walk-in pantry. "Melody. She's got a boy in her room. He's very handsome," Sneaky said trying to be nonchalant in her tattle telling. "Do you know who he is, Sneaky? There aren't many boys in TBAY," Pip asked full of curiosity as she sorted through the many bags of pasta, rice, and lentils. "Don't know Mistress. Never seen him before," Sneaky shrugged. Tumbling down the stairs came Melody followed by her mystery man. They seem to have not let their current changing of locations stop their argument. "But Mel, he is being shown as less human. You cannot hold him to the same justice as you would any other character. JKR is wanting us to think he is no longer subject to the same rights as a true human. He is becoming more snakelike as the series progresses," the tall thin boy argued. "John, he *is* still human no matter how she describes him. Voldemort does have a human soul, and human souls can be saved," she said reaching the bottom of the stairs. "You are letting our brought-up Christian perspective get in the way. This is fiction not real life. In magical Harry Potter world, maybe the soul *can* be destroyed and changed from being human. I mean, if a soul can be sucked out forever, maybe it can be mutated," he pointed out as they crossed the living room. Melody stopped, turned, and glared at him gently. He just gave her his toothy smile and patted her on the head. "I hate you," she growled behind her semi-smile pout. "I know," he said in a triumphant sing-song way. "Ah, Mel, come and take these bags of hurricane provisions up to the hall closet," Pip called from the kitchen. "And introduce us to your friend," called Grey Wolf from the pantry. Melody and the boy turned into the kitchen, but he froze and turned pale white. Seems the sight of a werewolf calmly arranging the stacks of marshmallows and chocolate chips must not have been what he expected in the kitchen. Grey Wolf, of course, just kept stacking but had a big smirk on his face from amusement. "Um, Melody. There's...there's..." John said grabbing the back of her shirt pulling her next to him to growl under a fearful whisper, "a *werewolf* over there." "John, please," she laughed shrugging him off. "He's very kind and gentle. He's my friend." John looked between Melody and the Wolf. He gave her an odd look but did not budge. Melody rolled her eyes and announced, "Grey. Pip. This is my brother." Nods, smiles, and slight waves were exchanged. "What brings you here, John?" Pip asked. John thought a bit and said, "I think it is because Melmel wanted to bring a character here that she could completely manipul...ouch...I mean, to see my darling sister." John quickly kissing Mel's forehead and nursed his newly thumped ear. Grey sniffed and glanced up, "Melmel?" Melody pursed her lips and breathed, "His pet name for me." John, of course, piped in further. "Oh, I have tons like Lodi, Mo-Mo, Mellow Yellow, Melamoostophileez..." "Alright! That is enough," Melody interrupted while pushing her brother out of the kitchen. "I think we will take these up and go back my room now." On his way out, John grabbed two sacks of groceries and called, "Nice meeting y'all." Regaining his steps, John glanced over at his sister. "Now why did you stop my fun like that?" Melody just glared back and lead him to the stairs trying not to pound her way up. "You did that on purpose." Following behind her, he smiled mischievously, "I did nothing of the sort. I was just being friendly." Reaching the closet, they dropped the bags inside and continued on to her room. "What did you do to be allowed to stay here anyway?" John asked jumping up on the corner of the bed and situating himself to lean against the bedpost. "I added a prologue to the dishwasher housed here and help to defend the thing," Melody explained putting her new flashlight on her nightstand and crawling up into her bed. "I explained that to you, right?" "Yes, yes," John said rolling his eyes and extending his arms behind his head. "What?" Melody looked at him. "The fact you believe that. Just a bit silly really. I mean these are kids books. Dumbledore could never manipulate all like that," John said rationally. "Don't say that too loudly. The last thing I need is for Pip and Grey to know I can't even convince my own brother that MD is valid," Melody said shaking her head in her hands. John glanced up. "Hey, I never said it wasn't valid. It is just not that plausible." Melody threw a pillow at him and growled, "Jerk." John laughed and slid off the bed. "What should we argue about now?" he asked staring out at the bay filled with ships and the occasional speeder. "What have you been pondering recently?" Melody's eyes twinkled. "You know better than to ask that and not expect a long answer." "That is why I asked," John said while stretching out his legs and getting comfortable in the chair next to the bed. He knew his sister well enough to know, he had broken open the dam, and it won't stop till she does. "Well it is about Harry. Hmm, let's start with the philosopher's stone," Melody began. John looked up and gave her a very patronizing look. "Mel, we're Texans. Say Sorcerer's," John said patriotically. "Oh, gracious, John. It doesn't matter," she fussed. "Maybe so, but you can't even pronounce 'philosopher' correctly," he said leaning his head back against the wall. "They don't know that," she shrugged. John squared his eyes on Melody and threatened, "Well they don't know *why* you can't pronounce it either." Melody glared at her brother while he just sat there with twinkles in his eyes. She managed to growl out, "You can go home right now if you came here..." However, John, sensing he had pushed her too far, quickly interrupted, "Ok, ok. Tell me you little ponderings. I'll be good." Knowing her brother meant it, she continued, "Ok, I'll shift from the *Sorcerer's* Stone and start with this. Let's get one thing straight ? Harry does not know he is in a series of books named after him. So, to say he is special just because the books are thusly titled is a misconception and great assumption on our part. Hagrid said to Harry in GoF Ch18, "everythin' seems ter happen ter you, doesn't it?" "And we as readers say 'of course' because we know Harry is the center of the story. But from this quote, it seem JKR does not want us to forget that Harry is not prince charming of the fairytale WW. So, suspend reality for a moment and sink into the story. From all perspectives, Harry is not special except for his little bouts with Voldemort. Now, Harry is just a kid and a fairly normal one at that. He is never mistaken from brilliant or even charismatic. He is just Harry. Don't forget that, and don't let our reality muddle your perception. So then, we have little Harry Potter. Endearing. Brave. Pure of Heart. All things wonderful and hopeful in the world really. That's just lovely," she said with a bit more sarcasm than is normally heard in such a run of words. "What do you have against Harry?" John asked surprised at his sister's tone. Melody looked up. "Nothing, I just find that JKR has written him borderline ideal." "Harry is far from ideal, Melmel," John pointed out, "really I find him to be a very good everyman." "But he does *always* win his battles. Until he fails, he *is* ideal. Gracious, ever since he's been in Gryffindor they have received that silly house cup. He even wins the fluff battles...well most of the time. But forget potion class marks, and think about what really matters. He does always manage to land on his feet. *That* is annoying to me," Melody said. "Why should that annoy you? He is the hero. Heroes win," John said. "But you are forgetting what I first said!" Melody said raising her voice a bit more than normal since she was talking to her brother. "Harry does not *know* he is in a book. He is just a boy trying to live. JKR is creating a character that she wants us to believe is human and yet she won't let him fail." "So ok, you have problems with Harry's perpetual success. Fine. Big deal. What is your point?" John asked in a semi-condescending way only a brother to his sister can pull off. "My *point,* which I thought would be *obvious* by now John, is that Harry will have to eventually fail," Melody concluded. John sat up in his chair. "I see no reason from *that,* Sis. If Harry fails..." "What?" Melody interrupted. "What do you suppose will happen? It would just be one battle that is lost. Frankly, no war is perfect. Someone will slip up somewhere, and truthfully, the 'good' side's time to slip is coming up. Oh, it is coming up soon, and Harry's time to slip is too. That is a *huge* lesson in life. What to do when you have messed up. This story is longer than a fairytale. In fairytales, you can be perfect for that short run because it is short. But over a seven year stint, someone somewhere on the good side will have to do something so bad that good will take a blow. It is inevitable." Melody took a breath and looked at her brother. He seemed quite annoyed and was watching the waves hit the shoreline in the moonlight. "Oh come now John, you expect Harry to keep treading water and not ever take a little in?" Melody asked him. John turned his head back frowning. "No. But I guess he has done it so well thus far, there is a good possibility he will continue this plight." "Why do you even assume he is still a major player in the rest of the war?" she asked him wanting to coax out his reason. "Because the title is...because Harry is the main...because it is from his...Melody that is a *trick* question," John finally growled and got up to pace the floor. "You can't assume these books are meant to be taken as a RL point of view." Melody slyly smiled and glanced up at her brother. "Can't I? Seems JKR works perfectly well weaving the magical world in and out of our own RL world quite precisely. Seems she wants us to know both worlds are existing simultaneously, and thus there is a reality of magic world and the real world where we live. Events from RL can be paralleled to the books quite well." "But that is not what I meant, *Mel,*" John said slightly annoyed. He knew she avoided his point on purpose. "I meant that the viewpoint that fictional characters are meant to be seen as normal complex human beings that could exist in the RL is a very precarious viewpoint. It assumes the author wrote them to be people and not symbolic in anyway." "But from Hagrid's quote it seems JKR wants us to see Harry as real, John. And frankly, I find that to study Harry as a real person, I am not disappointed. He is complex, except for this one flaw here. He always come out on top," Melody said. "First Mel, but it does seem that Harry will play a big part in the rest of the series without reducing my logic to an outside the book viewpoint. He will not stop from being a central part of it all, so you cannot say Harry will stop being the hero," John said firmly. "What proof do you have John?" Melody said challenging him. "Well, ok what about that fact that it is Harry is the one who has the life dept to Peter? Seems Harry then would be the only one to receive benefits from that little big of magic, and also, Harry is still the only wizard *known* to have an adverse effect on Voldemort," John said folding his arms and sitting full back against his chair. Melody twitched her mouth. "Ok, I will give you that. It *does* seem Harry has a bigger role to play and is *the* wizard that will receive the benefits of the whole situation right now, but then the problem I do have with his tremendous success rate matters even more. He does always come out on top." "Yes and no," John said bobbling his head in deep thought. "Harry is slowly having a more difficult time with his enemy, but Mel, some times his victories are just survival. He *is* the boy who lived." "Yes I know," Melody nodded gravely. "He does have a knack for survival, but at some point he will fail. And if he never does, then he is not human at all." "He has failed to find a plan for task two in GoF," John pointed out. "But that time he had Dobby's help." "That he did so let me shift my last statement. Harry and Harry's hidden support will fail him at some point. His hidden support did fail him in the graveyard and yet didn't since the wands pulled through along with Fawkes. Damn, that bird gets around. However, a true, long lasting war that must ensue for at least three more books cannot keep ensuing unless good fails at some point," Melody concluded. "*Now* who is using the books to predict the future?" John sniffed. "I am only using the resources available to me John," Melody smiled sweetly. "I will even go out on a limb and say Harry will live until book seven, which also adds rise to why I say Harry will fail and there will be consequences that *he* has to deal with. Whether or not someone else survives his failure is left to be seen." "Hasn't Harry already dealt with failure with Cedric?" John asked picking up and examining the old TBAY figurines on Melody's window seat. "No," Melody shook her head. "Harry did not have to deal with true failure there. He just had a taste of it. Sometimes you have to acclimate a person to what will happen. That way it is not as big of a blow when it does occur. Kind of like having a crush before you truly fall in love. One needs to get the jitters and butterflies out before they understand what is really going on and how to deal with it." Melody crawled over and laid stretched out across her bed on her stomach to watch her brother attack the herd of He-man/MyLittlePony!centaurs with the Voldemort!Thundercat figurine. There were no survivors. "You know, I just thought of another time Harry has failed," Melody said finally resting her chin on her hands. "He failed to get the snitch in PoA during the first Quidditch game opener, so then, we have two times Harry has felt failure." "But he was not the cause of either of those times. They were not his fault," John pointed out as he returned to sit in his chair. "But Harry has felt the twinge of failure on two levels then. One in a fluff matter in Quidditch, and another in a serious matter in Cedric's death," Melody concluded. The room was quiet for a while. They both were quite tired. John looked up and asked, "So what do you think he will do?" "Probably something that merits a big bang notoriety," Melody quietly said. "You remember what I explained about that ship, right?" John nodded. "I like that one." "You would," Melody smirked. "But frankly it is hard to not bang failure, though I guess she did quite well with Senior Crouch's failure. I guess I am saying, that JKR would be hard pressed to not bang *Harry* failing." "Mel, you have any food? I am starving," John asked looked around the room. "Down in the kitchen," Melody said pointing down the stairs. "I'll go with you; I missed dessert." They crept down the stairs to not awaken the house. The kitchen sat silent with a grey-ish hue from the light of the moon streamed through the bay windows. John pulled out one of the barstools while Melody dug through the fridge. She tossed him a cherry coke and took out a sprite for herself. She walked over, kicked her legs up, and sat Indian-style on the countertop with her side to her brother. They sat not disturbing the house's silence and munched on the plate of cookies Sneaky had laid out. "Harry failed to take Cho Chang to the ball," John finally said between swigs of coke. "Oh please John," Melody said shooting him an exasperated look. "That is not that important." John tipped his head, raised his eyebrows, "You've never been a 14 year old boy." "But is that per se failure?" she asked taking a bite of cookie. "To him it is, and the perception of a teenage boy *is* what's in question here," John pointed out. Melody stared in annoyance at the sink faucet at her knees. She hates it when he has a valid point. "Ok, he *has* failed to get his crush, but he doesn't know impacted deep failure," she said trying to salvage her argument. "You forget your youth so easily sister. And it wasn't that long ago either," he smirked. "Look - the failure perception of a teenage boy and a teenage girl are very different, so I don't think *my* youth needs to be in question here," she warned her brother. "Well, we aren't going through *my* youth, so let's just say that failure to not get the one we like is a big failure in both youths," John said. Melody sized up her brother but nodded. "But whether or not *Harry* finds his not taking Chang to the ball a failure, I defer to the text," Melody said, "Yes, I give you he is disappointed, might of even cried in the shower..." John shot her a look. "What?" Melody said indignantly. "Guys do cry in the shower, John." "I know that Mel, but I cannot see Harry doing that," John said rumpling his brow. "And why not?" she asked suppressing a smile. "Because...because..." John stumbled and shot Melody another look with a severe frown. "I hate it when you do that." Melody had a broad grin. "I want to hear you say it little brother." John spun his bar stool around to have his back to her. "Because Harry is not that broken up over her rejection. *But*," he said as he spun back around, "that is because her rejection is so gentle. She did not pull what Fleur did to Ron." "So then, Harry's failure did not seem like one to him because there is still hope in his mind with Chang even if he did not comment on it. It is just a small failure. Not too impacting. And after all, dear brother, this is about a teenage boy's perspective," she said with twinkles. John drummed his fingers on the counter. "I hate you." "I know," she smiled sweetly grabbing the plate, "Here, have the last cookie." He broke a smile and accepted the cookie. Melody slid off the counter and started walking toward the stairs back to her room. She stopped in the middle of the moonlit living room and turned to face her brother who has not budged. "So then the only times Harry admits feelings of failure is over quidditch and death. Two central parts of his life actually, and two times he really did not cause the failure. Or let me rephrase that. He *alone* did not fail. Circumstances beyond his control and all." John dusted his hands free of cookie crumbs and slid off the barstool. Melody turned and continued towards her set of stairs with her brother behind her. "Interesting pattern there, Mel. I mean, Quidditch, girl, then death," John said a few stairs behind her. Melody paused mid-stair and thought a minute. "Yeah it is. Three noted failures and three books left. I wonder if it *could* be a pattern," Melody rationalized. "Man I wish I would not of said anything," he said pushing her upward. "Oh course, that would kind of work. Build up to the end sort of thing," she said resuming her ascent. "So he will fail in all three? That is kind of harsh, Melmel," John said. "Hmmm...good point. That would be kind of harsh. Maybe not in all three ways, but he does need to conquer all three realms by the end. Though really, he has already conquered quidditch, he needs to fail there to keep the quidditch plot going. As for girl, unless he needs to fall a bit more, I think he can only go up. And Voldemort, well he has rather ticked him off now it seems. While failing against Voldemort to his face is almost certain death, failing in the path to Voldemort could not be as deadly for him and yet very important. The key is though, Harry needs...no, must...no, will fail eventually. He is not prince charming of the wizard world. He is a boy," she said not sure if she was repeating herself at this point. She pushed open her door and went to the closet to pull down a sleeping bag, pillow, and cot for her brother. "Fine Melmel. He will fail. *Big* revelation there," John said exhausted with her and closing the door. "Ok, so it is a broad theory. I give you that," Melody conceded closing the closet door to change inside (muffled voice). "But it is an important one in my opinion. Working through failure not only is important, but it also manages to drag the series on for two more books past OoP. Come now, she can't keep having Harry giving Voldie the finger, now can she?" "Melody! What would Mom say?" John said fluffing out the sleeping bag. "What?" she asked opening the closet door to step back out dressed in one of her long white cotton nightgowns and quickly skipped across to the bathroom. "Come on, that is exactly what Harry is doing." John just shook his head and stretched out on the cot. "You think it will be something big, I assume?" "Uh, huh," she said through a mouth full of toothpaste. "So no failure on the quidditch field, or failure to get the house cup sort of nonsense? That failure is not big enough for you," John continued. "Pwobabwee, naught," she said thickly. "He does need proper quidditch rivals though to fail in it. That way he truly has rivals and not the bad kind," John said. Melody stuck her head out wiping her mouth with a towel. "Yeah, JKR killed Harry's only true rival." "So, then quidditch is at a passing at least. Hopefully some of these other students are actually good at it and give him a run for at least a true fair rivalry. Then Harry can fail and not take it *that* hard," he said. "Your turn, John," she said crossing the room and hopping into bed. Her brother dug through his bag for his toothbrush and pjs. Just before he closed the bathroom door, he turned and asked, "So then, Harry will fail with a death then?" "I don't know," Melody said leaning her head back on her pillow resting one arm above her head. "That is such a *big* failure." John nodded and closed the bathroom door leaving Melody alone lost in thought and twisting her finger around one of her curls. She barely even noticed when he came back in the room and asked, "Turn off the light?" "Huh?" she asked not focusing her eyes. "Nevermind sis," ha said turning out the light and cozying himself in his makeshift bed. "John?" "What?" "I don't want Harry to hurt. He has had enough pain." "Then why even suggest this theory?" "Because I see more pain in his life if he does not fail," she said sighing deeply. "How do you see that?" "Sooner or later he will realize he never fails. *That* is dangerous." "I don't know Mel. Seems Harry is well aware he is no prince charming." "But John. If Harry reaches the end of year seven and never ever failed, I think that is quite damning. How would he *not* get a big head?" "Mel, what makes you think he will live?" he asked as he turned over. Melody Who talks enough about her brother on the site that she might as well as introduced him to tbay From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 03:35:38 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 03:35:38 -0000 Subject: Rowling and Philosophy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53676 Replies to Pippin, GulPlum and Kathleen in this post: I wrote: Treason, the betrayal of a trust, is a pretty hefty crime. But we don't have Voldemort on it yet. Pippin replied: Of course we do! " I was sympathetic, I was kind. Ginny simply *loved* me. *No one's ever understood me like you, Tom ... I'm so glad I've got this diary to confide in ... It's like having a friend I can carry around in my pocket...." -- CoS ch17. Ginny certainly was betrayed. As for rebellion, Tom was a prefect when he set the Serpent of Slytherin on the school. I reply: Do you really think that those are similar examples? I'm not sure that they are. For instance, I'd say that he didn't really betray Ginny as much as he tricked her in the first place, because Ginny wasn't really Tom Riddle's friend, was she? He just sort of got her to open up so that she'd tell him stuff, and do the dirty work - after all, Tom never actually says that he 'likes' Ginny, or that they *were* friends - just that Ginny trusted him. So, in that sense, yeah, it's a betrayal, but it's not the same kind. I was thinking of betrayal in the sense of betraying friends or family, like, Barty Crouch Jr., Wormtail kind of treason. I guess I mean the same when I think of him as a prefect 'betraying' his fellow students. I think I see where you're coming from on this one, but isn't that more of a general kind of betrayal, as in, its bad enough he did this without being a prefect on top of it? The prefects, after all, are supposed to be looking out for the students? That's sort of like how cheating on a test is a violation of the 'honor code?' But that's an obligation to the whole school, so it's not really the same, IMO, as the profound trust on which friends should be able to rely. For instance, if I found out that he set the basilisk on one of his buddies, someone he associated with, then I'd agree here. And since we have every indication that his father disowned him, I don't even think that Voldemort's own patricide is really a betrayal in the sense that I was thinking. I think that in some ways it is a betrayal, but still, it's not the kind of 'selling your loved ones down the river' kind of treason for which Brutus, Cassius, and Judas were responsible. GulPlum wrote: Riddle/Voldemort (and Slytherin before him) believes that wizarding society should be strong. In itself, there is nothing wrong with that perspective. As it happens, Dumbledore (presented as Riddle/Voldemort's nemesis) believes the same thing. It's in how that strength can best be achieved, and how to maintain it, that they differ. Riddle believes that strength lies in separatism, purity and superiority. Dumbledore believes that strength lies in inclusiveness, variety and an acknowledgement of our weaknesses. I reply: I couldn't agree more with you on this distinction. When I went back to reread some of Draco's first words to Harry in Madam Malkins, PS/SS, Draco hasn't yet taken the slanderous 'mudblood' approach to his bigotry. What we do see from him is this interesting desire for a 'pure' culture. He says: "They're just not the same, they've never been brought up to know our ways. Some of them have never even heard of Hogwarts until they get the letter, imagine. I think they should keep it in the old wizarding families." (PS/SS, US paperback, Ch.5, 78) And I think that it's possible that a lot of the bigotry in the ww isn't so much hatred of Mudbloods as it actually is a manifestation of the fear that the culture will get diluted or weakened. Desiring a strong cultural identity isn't the same as hating outsiders. I see this in my own life all of the time, like when Greeks, Jews, or Catholics tell their kids to marry within their own national, ethnic, or religious groups. In other words, the idea of 'competing goods' is something that resonates very strongly with me, because it seems to be so in step with everything that actually happens in life. Kathleen wrote: None of the actions you pointed out could be considered "good", but that does not mean that all the characters are equally bad. Voldemort and Fudge both killed, but we can safely presume, based on the three factors, that there is at least a possibility that Fudge may not have equal culpability for his murder. I reply: I concur here - they're not all *equally* bad. However, might I venture a thought? Fduge didn't just 'murder' Barty Crouch Jr. He had the dementor suck the guy's soul out, which is worse than death, right? So, does that actually make Fudge come out lower on the morality scale in this case? I like your three attributes, incidentally. Very lucid. Kathleen wrote: I also agree that almost all of the characters, even some of our favorite ones, make bad choices. Don't we all? But even so, it is overly simplistic to lump Hagrid and Voldemort in the same category of evilness. I reply: One-hundred percent agreement, here. I wasn't trying to place them all on the same level. I was just responding to the notion that the good wizards weren't corrupted. I also agree with your point on the way the author shows us these situations, so that we end up rooting for and liking the rule-breakers the most. IMHO, her moral system is delightfully real, and (I hope) will prove to be very insightful before the end of the series - and we know that there's more to come on this - I recall reading an interview where JKR declared that Dumbledore's words on the difference between (paraphrased) 'choosing what is right over what is easy' was going to be very important in the future novels. Kathleen wrote: I disagree that Arthur Weasley is a hypocrite. He did make a law with a loop hole in it, to accomodate his own interest, but we can assume that anyone else with a knowledge of Wizard law could make use of the same loophole. It's not as though he is excepting only himself from the law, he is making a law that will except anyone. I reply: Yeah, probably hypocrite wasn't the best choice of words to describe what I was thinking there. I guess 'corrupt politician' might cover it, but it's not exactly the same thing since Arthur's really much more of a bureaurocrat than a politician. What I was trying to get at is that, like with the fun campaign finance stuff, building the loophole is a violation of the *spirit* of the law. Sure, others could get away with it, but I doubt that a lot of people read the law to that extent, and I doubt that too many wizards would do their research thoroughly enough to conclude that you can tinker with stuff magically as long as you don't intend to use it after it's been charmed. I mean, that's sort of sneaky wording there. So, is he a hypocrite in the sense that he's restricting others' actions while doing whatever he wants to do? No, I guess he's not. But I think it's arguable that he's, um, what *is* a better word for this? Well, how about: he's corrupt for deliberately writing a law with a loophole built into it when the loophole has no legal importance, but is instead motivated purely by self interest. He wrote a law that really won't do what it's supposed to do. It's Arthur taking advantage of semantics. -Tom From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 03:57:06 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 03:57:06 -0000 Subject: Dress Robes and a question about Sirius/Lupin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53677 My first question is can anyone direct me to where I can see what dress robes look like? I have never seen one before and I find it hard to imagine what the Trio, and everyone else, are wearing for the Yule Ball. I automatically switch to suits and dresses. Plus, I just can't picture guys wearing robes, if that's what it actually looks like. Now my question about Sirius and Lupin. My neighbor has my PoA book (and I have a feeling I'm never going to get it back), if I did have it I wouldn't bother to ask. Anyhow, how does Sirius know exactly where to find Harry at the Dursley's on Privet Drive? And why hasn't Lupin tried to contact Harry once he's reached Hogwarts? Greicy From basementgirl74 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 03:42:06 2003 From: basementgirl74 at yahoo.com (The Sparrow) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 19:42:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Lots of stuff about dreams,Trelawney, centaurs,Mars, Hermione/McGonnagal connections and something bloody funny..... In-Reply-To: <1047296382.1393.48413.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030313034206.13112.qmail@web40505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53678 Well, I've been doing a bit of research since reading Grindieloe's Mars connection question (HPFGU's Message 4, digest 2595). It's a good question too, something like this has just as much connection to the rest of the story as anything else. Two mentions of the same thing sends us all off doesn't it? :) JKR has researched the subjects used in the books extremely well to say the least, perhaps mentioning these to mars incidences is just part of her fleshing out the realness of the text. Centaurs observe the stars to understand what's around them and remain neutral despite their knowledge.Mars is a war planet, and its brightness as observed by the centaurs may mean that confict or battle is coming up-this thought is echoed in the Harry Potter Lexicon. When Trelawney says Mars is being 'interesting' she may be picking up on the battle vibe, because she knows as well that Mars is a war planet. Seeing as how Harry's scar was burning at that time (from his prophetic dream-which i'll go into in a minute), this could actually be an acurate prediction (I think Trelawney is more than she's given credit for by the way!). I find it interesting that the characters view a centaurs talent for reading the planets is taken more seriously than Trelawneys, especially by Hermione who regards all that sort of thing as rubbish. But then, she studies Ancient Runes, so this attitude might be relative-she doesn't like Trelawney because she said books won't get heranywhere.Another person who isn't keen on Trelawney is McGonnagall,who Hermione seems quite *close* to- why else would McGonnagal give her a time-turner?(Now there's a connection to keep all the Ron/Dumbledore and Hermione/Minerva theorists happy! Now about Harry's dream(s). Most of them seem to be either prophetic or memories, but Harry's dream in Divination class seems to be neither- it's kind of a window into what's happing at that time (I really hope I'm remembering this time-line acurately-I don't have the book with me). Harry rides on the back of an Eagle Owl in the dream, and the only person we know of who has an eagle owl is Draco Malfoy. Thanks to his ride on the owl, Harry is able to see what Voldemort is up to while remaining unseen. I assume the owl is the Malfoy family's rather than Draco's alone, as it brings his packages from his mother. I've therefore come to this conclusion-the Malfoy family member who sent the owl to 'deliver' Harry to the Riddle house is the same person who sent Dobby to warn Harry at the start of CoS(I don't believe the whole it-was-a-joke-from-Malfoy tag). I wish I could go into this more but I really like to have canon with me when I speculate!:) However, something in my brain tells me that Percy's owl Hermes is an eagle owl too, but that might just be me tapping into my Percy-but-not-as-we-know-him pet theory! Finally, I'm not going to say anything about this, just that in the name of broad research, you might find something 'useful'. You might also find something paranoid/conspiritous.(And before the Christians on this group get offended, I'll just say that I think Jesus is ace, and religions are great-but we all get a bit caried away sometimes.... http://www.seekgod.ca/topicharrypotter.htm Love Sparrow, whose brain hurts....Must be because of Saturn..... __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com From cindysphynx at comcast.net Thu Mar 13 04:52:30 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 04:52:30 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Harry's Failures (WAS Harry as Alexander the Great) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53679 "Oh, *cool!* A sleepover!" Beaming with excitement, Cindy snapped on the lights in Melody's cozy bedroom in the Safe House. "I absolutely *adore* sleepovers!" "Oh, no. Not -- Cindy!" Melody cried, squinting against the harsh ceiling light and clutching her blankets around her. "What are *you* doing here?" Cindy grabbed the bottom of the blankets and snatched them from Melody's grip. "You're not a blanket hog, are you? I *cannot* sleep in the same bed with a blanket hog. Let's get that straight right now." "S-same bed?" Melody echoed blankly. "Exactly. I heard talk about Banging and failure and death. Sounds like my kind of party." Cindy flipped the covers back and launched herself into Melody's bed, ignoring the ping of popping coils. "OK, what do we have so far, Mel?" Cindy asked brightly. "And budge up ?- I need way more room than that. I'm *squished* over here." "Well -?" Melody swallowed hard, inching toward the farthest edge of the bed. "I was thinking about how the next books will require that Harry fail. I mean, so far the only times Harry admits feelings of failure is over Quidditch and death. Two central parts of his life actually, and two times he really did not cause the failure. Or let me rephrase that. He *alone* did not fail. Circumstances beyond his control and all." "Yes, Harry has had it easy so far," Cindy agreed. "No doubt about it. Whenever he gets into trouble or needs something, someone comes up with the answer. Someone gave him a Nimbus, and Sirius supplied a Firebolt. Dead people saved his bacon in the graveyard. Dumbledore saved him from Moody. On and on it goes. "But there are two times we do see Harry fail," Cindy went on. "First, Harry never did master that Shield Charm, did he? I'm pretty sure that will come back to haunt him. And second, Harry failed to stop Pettigrew's escape. After all, Harry was the last person with the opportunity to catch Pettigrew as he scampered away, and Harry didn't succeed. A simple 'Wingardium Leviosa' charm would have done the trick, after all. Instead, we get Harry running forward and shouting 'Stay where you are!'" Cindy rolled her eyes derisively. "That's failure in my book." "Oh, come *on!*" Melody said. "You're calling *that* failure? Those things don't even Bang -? not one little bit. So Harry can't work out the Shield Charm. He never even needs it. And how Bangy would it be for PoA to end with Harry levitating a rat?" Melody scowled. "Fair enough, fair enough," Cindy admitted. "Harry is going to have to fail in the next three books, and it's going to have to be *huge.* As we all know, failure builds character and makes you Tough. Melting a cauldron isn't good enough to instill that kind of character. Forgetting to feed Hedwig? Not even close. You know what this means, don't you Melody? You said it yourself -? 'Harry admits feelings of failure over Quidditch and death.'" Melody sat up suddenly, her eyes wide. "Death? But whose death would constitute the single biggest failure for Harry? The death that would make Harry Tough?" She clapped her hands to her cheeks in horror. "Is it Hagrid? We all know Hagrid is going to die. Is it going to be Harry's failure that leads to Hagrid's death? Tell me it's not going to be Hagrid," she implored. "Nah. Hagrid is an adult who ought to be able to take care of himself." "Dumbledore?" "Talk about being able to take care of yourself," Cindy snorted. "No, it needs to be someone who Harry feels a need to protect. Someone who can't take of himself or herself." "Herself?" Melody repeated. "Not ?-" "Exactly!" Cindy cried. "Harry is going to fail at protecting *Hermione,* and she's going to pay for his mistake with her life!" "OK, now that's just *sick!* Melody sniffed, her arms folded defiantly. "And you don't have canon anyway." "Don't I?" Cindy said quietly. "Well, I already made the case for Hermione's demise in Message 46166. The only thing missing is some canon for the idea that Harry feels protective of Hermione." "Hmmm," Melody considered. "Harry doesn't let Hermione come with him to retrieve the Stone in PS/SS." "No, he doesn't, does he?" Cindy nodded vigorously. "And he prevents Krum from biting Hermione's head off in the Second Task in GoF. He also tells her to hold onto him when they ride Buckbeak in PoA. "But that's not Harry's only problem. We know that Hermione seems to do rather poorly in DADA. She couldn't ward off the boggart. She doesn't know how to conjure a Patronus. She couldn't throw off the Imperius Curse. Hermione is vulnerable, and Harry knows it. If he fails to protect her . . . " Cindy looked up, her face flushed. "Then Harry will have suffered the most gut-wrenching failure of his life -? a failure that leads to the death of one of his two best friends. If anything will give Harry the desire to defeat Voldemort once and for all, that will." There was a long, tense moment in which light breathing could be heard from across the room. "Hey, Mel, who's the hunk over there on the cot?" Cindy asked, straining for a better look. "Oh, that's just my brother." "Heavy sleeper, he is," Cindy replied, pulling the covers over her head. *************** Cindy From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 05:20:52 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 21:20:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Quidditch as Metaphor/Krum In-Reply-To: <001d01c2e88b$06f03960$723b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20030313052052.78422.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53680 Yours truly: > > The comparison here between Harry who > > refrained from catching the Snitch and > > Krum who didn't would make the case > > for considering Harry to be a team > > player and Krum not IF we are given > > the impression that Krum was motivated > > by the desire to "preserved his own > > status as the most brilliant Seeker" > > on the way "to get glory for himself." > > Mind pointing me again? I never got > > that impression. Debbie: > I think the hints of disapproval are > there, but they are very subtle: > > 1. The Bulgarian team members "shaking > their heads and looking dejected." > > 2. Everyone, including the Irish team > and Ludo Bagman, were taken aback at > Krum's actions. Yes, I agree that the above can be read as signs of disapproval on the part of Krum's teammates, opponents, officials and spectators. But does it logically follow that societal disapproval of Krum's action proves that Krum is out to get himself a bit more glory? Or has your point gone completely over my head somewhere? Very possible, of course... > 3. The final score was 170 to 160. > He gave up on his team when they > only needed to score only two more > goals in order to put victory within > reach. One goal would have put a tie > within reach. Krum's action sealed > the team's defeat. Ah, here's where our readings diverge. I don't see Krum as having given up on his team at all, and he'd be justified seeing that they were down 160 points right before he caught the Snitch. In order for Bulgaria to win in your scenario, two things have to happen: (1) Krum must catch the Snitch AFTER (2) Bulgaria outpace Ireland by at least two goals. And the previous action in this game does not support this scenario: Ireland is scoring 16 goals for every goal that Bulgaria scored. Then there's the fact that Lynch spots the Snitch as Krum was taking a bludger to his face. At this point no feint is going to divert Lynch and no referee is stopping the game. What could Krum do but to go after the Snitch despite having just been injured? Foul Lynch? Can't really tell from text if it's even possible for Krum to do so.... Seeing that Ireland is outscoring Bulgaria by 160 points at the time Krum ended the game, perhaps we may extrapolate from that ratio that perhaps by the time that Bulgaria scores that two additional goals, Ireland may possibly be hundreds of points ahead. If so, the 150 points that the Snitch would bring would not do Bulgaria much good. This is why the fact that Krum caught the Snitch in this sequence of events doesn't indicate his inability to be a team player to me, which is why I don't see why he'd be the foil to TeamPlayer!Harry. Debbie: > Actually, I find Krum to be a very > sympathetic character. He is a child > prodigy, a star athlete at only 18. > Girls he doesn't even know are > chasing after him. His headmaster > fawns over him sickeningly. He's a > commodity and that's how he's treated > by almost everyone. He may never > have known a normal life. Not > surprisingly, he seems comfortable with > himself only when he's playing > Quidditch. His awkwardness and shyness > away from Quidditch are well documented. > E.g., "Harry noticed that he seemed a > lot less coordinated on the ground." > Or the fact that he had to "pluck up the > courage" to ask Hermione to the Yule Ball. > > One can hardly blame Krum for showcasing > what seems to be the only thing people > value him for. Krum's evident feelings > of inadequacy in spite of his > extraordinary talent echo Harry's > similar feelings, but Krum seems > even more isolated than Harry. Harry > has a close relationship with Ron > and Hermione, but Krum seems to be > kept away from his classmates by > Karkaroff and singled out for special > treatment. Perhaps that's why he > is so overwhelmingly taken with > Hermione -- she is the only person other > than his parents who takes an interest > in Victor the person and not > Victor the world-famous seeker. > > Basically, I feel sorry for him. Yes, me too. Krum strikes me as who Harry might have been if The Boy Who Lived hadn't been hidden away in a cupboard for years and years. Not that I would advocate child abuse as a method for character building, of course. Petra, a sometime 'sob sister' a n :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 07:19:02 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 07:19:02 -0000 Subject: Why do a lot of people think Hagrid's going 2 B the one who "Snuffs it"? In-Reply-To: <6823455.1047410416219.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53681 Richelle gave a great list for why Hagrid is a 'death-candidate', including: > 4)Robbie Coltrane was asked once if he was signed up for all seven movies like > Richard Harris was, his response was "sort of." Said he'd signed up for the > first five. Hmm. Since the movie has already been brought up, I'll go one step further with that. I believe that changes (in the movies) that stray from the original plot happen for one of two reasons: either the plot is too intricate/detailed to be portrayed on screen (ex: changes in how Draco discovers Norbert in SS) or changing the movie actually, in the long run, makes it more true-to-the-books. In the second case, sometimes themes, relationships, and ideas are developed subtely and gradually throughout a book, but there isn't time for this to happen in the movie and thus it's given to the audience in one large punch. I'm directly referring to the standing ovation given to Hagrid at the end of the (movie) CoS. I can't help but think that since we were not given time to develop as deep of a Harry-Hagrid relationship (compared to the books), the CoS standing-o was an attempt to make us bond with Hagrid more - or, at the least, help us to see that he is a cherished staple at Hogwarts, and thus eventually understand the significance of his death. GlumPlum wrote: > The second point I wanted to make is about Hagrid's narrative > function. Hagrid's main role has been as Harry's (and our) guide to > the magical world. I agree, and would add on to that that this is a time when Harry (and all of the WW) are entering new terrain. They don't know what lies ahead of them, and Harry, always a key player, especially doesn't know where his path will lead him. Symbolically, it makes sense to me that the most nurturing of his previous guides is taken away from him. I also think it would be interesting if Harry, during whatever "quest" he attempts (and most likely completes), is given the opportunity to save Hagrid, but, for the sake of accomplishing his task, chooses not to save Hagrid. For example: Both Hagrid and the entire fate of the WW are hanging from a cliff. Harry can save only one of the two groups. He chooses the rest of the WW, but must then watch Hagrid plummet to his death. (Obviously, I don't think this specific scenario will happen. I just used it to illustrate my point.) GlumPlum then wrote, in another post: > This book [OoP] is the logical place for Voldemort to attack > Dumbledore's close circle. Again, I agree. JKR noted that in order for us to see the depth of V's wrath, we need to see important characters die. I add on to this, that we must see degrees of important characters die. (If Dumbledore, say, were killed by Voldemort in OoP, there would be no one else - except Harry - that could die in the next three books that holds as great of significance. Too quick of an action/tension peak also means that there's nowhere else to go but down.) According to my tea leaves, there will be many times in which we are left to think "could it possibly get any worse" and then we are shown just *how much* worse it can get: GoF - Cedric dies. He is an important character to that book, and readers get close to him, but it is only through one book that we are able to build a relationship with this character. Also, tragic and sad as his death may be, Cedric's absence will not have a *great* impact on the readers, the WW, Hogwarts, or Harry, especially compared to those who may die in the future. (predicting future deaths): OoP - Hagrid dies. Great emotional significance to Harry, but not much of a change to the protection of Hogwarts or the WW. If Hagrid dies at V's (or a V-servant's) hands, this also shows that V's power is growing, and perhaps has already eclipsed his VWI power-peak. (Hagrid is Dumbledore's most trusted friend; V-forces being able to get close enough to Hagrid to kill him - and then being able to actually kill him - also has great symblic significance.) Book 6: I'm stumped on this one. I want it to be someone like Sirius Black, except I love him too much to kill him off for speculation's sake. But I think this death will be one that effects Harry emotionally - as well as it being more dangerous for Harry now that this person isn't around to help and protect him. Also, a character's death isn't specifically needed here, but I do think that this book will have the bleakest ending, ala The Empire Strikes Back, and an easy way to accomplish this is through a character dying. (Lucius Malfoy or someone equally dark taking over as over Hogwarts headmaster is another way, but without further evidence I emotionally can't speculate on this. Not yet... but... there has been much mentioned about how Hogwarts was one of the only safe havens during VWI, which only leads me to believe that it eventually will *not* be a safe haven during VWII. ) Book 7: Dumbledore (in the middle of the book - or, at least, not at the very end.) This could also happen at the end of Book 6, in that tragic "will the world now be permanently cast in shadow"/"is there any reason left to have hope?" way. I think that for all of the reasons that Hagrid dies, we also *sniff, sniff* have to have Dumbledore die. - Nobody's Rib From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 07:46:58 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 07:46:58 -0000 Subject: Dress Robes and a question about Sirius/Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53682 Greicy asked: > How does Sirius know exactly where to find Harry at the Dursley's > on Privet Drive? Best answer I can come up with: Sirius and Hagrid interact at Godric's Hollow: "Jus' got [Harry] outta the ruins [of Godric's Hollow], poor little thing, with the great slash across his forehead, an' his parents dead... an' Sirius Black turns up, on that flyin' motorbike he used ter ride. an' I told Black no [to Black taking Harry], Dumbledore said Harry was ter go ter his aunt an' uncle's," Hagrid, in PoA US Hardcover page 206) Either Hagrid also mentioned where the Dursleys lived (and wouldn't think to add that into the replay conversation just to please us ;) ) or Sirius, as a friend of the Potters, would know where their muggle relations lived. (I just got an image of MWPP t.p.ing the younger, newlywed Dursleys.) Greicy also asked: > And why hasn't Lupin tried to contact Harry once he's reached > Hogwarts? I could respond to this with a jovial salute to Evil!Lupin, but for now will refrain from adding fodder to the Evil!/anti-Evil!Lupin debates. I think that Lupin and the Potters may have had a falling out at some time. There was some reason that Lupin was suspected of being a traitor - which may have been a result of the falling out or cause for it on its own. Either way, Lupin notes in PoA that he and James were friends "at Hogwarts." Perhaps Lupin didn't feel comfortable contacting Harry when there may be bad blood between him and the Potters. In addition, Lupin may not feel it is his place to tell Harry stories about his parents when others, like Dumbledore, have not yet deemed it a fit time to do so. Lupin could also not want to emotional burden of being a young boy's closest link to his parents - or be so personally grief stricken over the Potters' deaths that he cannot emotionally bear the burden of living through the memories as he tells stories to Harry. - Nobody's Rib From bloodroses_thorn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 04:58:50 2003 From: bloodroses_thorn at yahoo.com (Sherri) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 20:58:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What do the Weird Sisters sound like? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030313045850.23085.qmail@web12204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53683 --- Alicia wrote: > So my question is: what do other people think The > Weird Sisters sound like? Well, when I imagine The Weird Sisters, I've always pictured a band similar to the Visual Kei bands of Japan. Visual Kei, if you don't already know, is a style of japanese rock music that is a sort of goth/punk/classical cross. It's difficult to describe, but some of the more famous (even in America) Visual Kei bands are Malice Mizer, Dir en Grey, and Duel Jewel. And when I picture TWS, I picture Malice Mizer. Malice Mizer is an all-male band, but only the lead singer (who used to be Gackt, but I'm not sure who it is now) looks like a man. They all dress in drag, often using Victorian style dresses as their costumes, and have a simply gorgeous style of music, that is a sort of crossbreed of classical symphonies and modern goth rock. It's hard to describe, but I highly recommend them. At least, I think that TWS looks like Malice Mizer, and since MM uses almost the exact same instruments as TWS, I wouldn't be surprised if they sounded alike as well. *headbutts* Sherri-neko =^.^= __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com From mavencree at hotmail.com Thu Mar 13 06:45:37 2003 From: mavencree at hotmail.com (mavencree) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 06:45:37 -0000 Subject: Why Hagrid's going 2 Snuff it - possible spoilers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53684 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lynn" wrote: > Maybe I'm a bit out of the loop here, but when I was looking > over the polls about who everyone thinks JK Rowling is going > to kill off, I was shocked at the "good"(For want of a better > word) Hagrid got. I have just one question: Why him? I read this in an on-line interview last year. JK was asked if Hagrid was going to live to see the end of the series. She paused and then said, "...He'll be around." And that's all she would say about it. This leads me to believe that Hagrid is going to die and then come back as a ghost. She *has* said that we are going to find out more about the ghosts and this would be one way to do it. There was also an artile in "This Is London", linked from TLC, from Robbie Coltrain in which he says: 'I know about what happens to Hagrid, which is something author JK Rowling told me from the beginning to help me prepare me for the part,' he said. 'There is a death in the fifth book of a central character. But I can't say more than that.' I think Hagrid's going to be a verrrrrrrrrrry large spectral figure. (Wouldn't it be great if he paid a visit to the Dursleys!) ;P Maven From basementgirl74 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 05:06:54 2003 From: basementgirl74 at yahoo.com (The Sparrow) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 21:06:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Heads of houses, old Hog staff and serpent myths In-Reply-To: <1047253444.3072.13394.m13@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030313050654.93931.qmail@web40501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53685 FlamingStar Chows (HPFGU message #3, digest 2594) said: If a teacher is head of a house, why wouldn't they remain head of that house? Why would they move to another one, especially to make way for someone younger? I would think that a person that is head of one of the houses would remain so until they retired, moved up (headmaster) or asked to be relieved of that duty. If they asked to be relieved of the duty (i.e. due to advanced age), they certainly wouldn't want to take on another. AHHHH! I like this one. Snape would have become a Hogwarts teacher around the early '80's. I'm gonna assume that there was still a head of house when he got there. Dumbledore decisions are often accepted with a grain of salt, but appointing a known Death Eater head of a house would ruffle parents feathers a bit! So we might presume that Severus was taken on as Potions master, which leaves not one but two questions-who was head of Slytherin before Snape and...who was Potions master before Snape?...... and what happen to the both of them? Well. it's nice to dream.....so here I go. Taking the above statement the the head of the house is of that house as a student (which i agree with), maybe the head of house and potions master are the same person, as they are now. Lucius seems to be too much of a diplomat-and too intolorent of Muggles-to ever be a teacher at Hogwarts-plus Albus knows better than to trust a Malfoy, so he's out. Other noted past possible Slytherins are few, my brain won't let me remember them, so I'm going to conclude that this mystery teacher-along with the other teacher's in his timeline will be uncovered in the future. An interesting note I stumbled past on the Lexicon however regards the story of the Bloody Baron. I know we'll find out more about the ghosts as well, but it is questioned whether the silvery blood stains on the baron's robe are of Unicorn blood....Hmm... SPARROW, who's enjoying the death of her speculator's block! P.S. That crazy site about Harry potter the demon of evil I sent last message (http://www.seekgod.ca/topicharrypotter.htm) *did* have something useful on it after all (never discount *anyone's* advice!)It is mentioned in the analysis of GoF that Voldemort's serpent Nagini is the female version of Naga, a group of serpent water demons in India. It is said they will eventually destroy the world with fire, and that they are related to the phoenix!!! I'm very excited about the Phoenix/fire/Gryffindor vs. Nagini serpent/water/Slytherin opposite theme! SPARROW, who's enjoying the death of her speculator's block! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com From hieya at hotmail.com Thu Mar 13 06:59:59 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 06:59:59 -0000 Subject: Halloween in COS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53686 I noticed something unusual in the scene in Lockhart's office on Halloween in COS, when Mrs. Norris was petrified. Dumbledore and McGonagall were trying to revive the cat, but Snape just stood there, not saying a word, and trying not to smile. This is not at all consistent with his behavior in other books, because we know that he is a take-charge type of person. He is never so passive. Why was he smiling? "greatlit2003" From steinber at inter.net.il Thu Mar 13 08:08:32 2003 From: steinber at inter.net.il (asandhp) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 08:08:32 -0000 Subject: Rowling and Philosophy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53687 The method I've got for getting these posts around my server is a bit slow, so what I've written here might be bit behind the flow of this thread, but that's the best I can do. By the same token, thanks to all who responded to my other posts (GulPlum and others?), and I hope to repond to them soon, but that's not likely to be until Sunday at the soonest. This is a general reply and continuation to everything that's been said. The lines of good and evil are drawn between Voldemort and Dumbledore, at the peak; Snape and Lupin, in the middle; the Dursleys and the Weasleys, also in the middle; and Draco and Harry at the bottom. I think it is a serious point of JK's that Draco and Voldemort are on a continuum which all counts as evil, *even though* many of the things they do (or at least that Draco does) are similar to the things that Harry and the other good guys do. In other words, Draco is not as evil as Voldemort, but he's still a little evil, while Harry is a little good. Now, I think the best way to figure out what JK means by good and evil is to list what distinguishes the members of these pairs from each other. Then we can go on to agree or disagree with these distinctions vis a vis real life, but at least we should be able to decide fairly conclusively what distinctions JK has made between good and evil. So, starting at the bottom, we have Draco offering many unprovoked insults for the singular purpose of putting people down. HRH never do that. They respond in kind very often, but they never put people down out of the blue. (Even Fred and George's put-downs to Percy are aimed, basically, at restoring equality in the face of Percy's superior airs.) Draco has minions, not equals, for "friends." HRH are quite equal. Draco tattles to teachers; HRH do not. Draco tries to get Hagrid sacked; HRH try to save the stone from Snape, but they don't report him to anyone in order to get him fired. (They wish it, but they take no action to accomplish it.) Draco and co. unfairly sabotage the Quidditch game in PoA; Harry helps Cedric improve his chances in GoF. Draco's prejudiced against Muggle-borns; HRH aren't. To be fair, what they have in common is that they both gloat over the other's failures and problems, but HRH do nothing to cause Draco's failures and problems, while Draco does plenty to cause theirs. Another difference - Harry never waves his new brooms tauntingly in Draco's face, he waits for Draco to come over and feel bad himself. Draco happily taunts Harry with his Nimbus 2001 in CoS. This adds up to junior-level evil = unprovoked action or speech deliberately aimed at putting people down or causing them harm. Junior-level good = generally treating others as equals, and only hurting or insulting others in immediate retaliation. (Getting back the next day doesn't count as good; only retaliating immediately in the heat of the emotion is forgivable (but not admirable).) Now compare Snape and Lupin. (Even though Snape is on the "good side" his behavior is not good by any stretch of the imagination. I think it is brilliant of JKR to show the realistic existence of bad people supporting the "right" causes, and good people supporting "wrong" causes (Fudge). So - Snape plays favorites; Lupin has favorites but doesn't act on them (as far as we know). Snape doesn't give people chances; Lupin does. Snape insults Harry (but hypocritically not Draco) for not following the rules; Lupin appeals to Harry's conscience to follow rules. Snape threatens Harry with expulsion, poison, truth serum, etc., to admit to breaking rules; Lupin refuses to hear Harry's confessions. Snape insults vulnerable students with no provocation; Lupin gives lots of unprovoked compliments and generally tries to make people feel good. Snape doesn't admit his weaknesses; Lupin does. Snape holds 20-year grudges; Lupin does not. (His feelings toward Pettigrew are a combination of revulsion and a desire for justice, which he controls just fine when Harry defends P.) This adds up to mid-level evil = unprovoked action or speech deliberately aimed at putting people down or causing them harm. Mid-level good = generally treating others as equals (even when you don't think well of them), treating people with respect and kindness, and defending justice with reason and good judgement. I'm running out of steam, so I'll leave the other pairs to others of you to do, but even with Voldemort, it adds up to unprovoked action or speech deliberately aimed at putting people down or causing them harm, with the "putting people down" part more highly emphasized. Voldemort wants immortality, yes, but he's not interested in sharing his immortality with a bunch of equals. He wants absolute power over other people as much as he wants eternal life. Dumbledore, in contrast, "gives people chances." He's always ready to treat people well and as equal, free agents. So that's my take on what's evil and good in the Potterverse. It doesn't matter if you're human or not, and it certainly depends on one's choices, as all have said, but the bottom line is whether you're dominating and hurting people for the sake of domination and ego-boosting, or whether you're generally respecting and being kind to people for the sake of equality and fairness. But now I want to add something else. It's been commented on repeatedly that JK's all for "choice" as the basis for morality. Hear, hear! But there is a long list of other moral positions that she makes in her books, that rarely get mentioned, and I'd like to give them some air-time. 1. PS: Harry's very unhappy that Voldemort got away at the end. Dumbledore (the voice of moraliy, of course) tells him that it's OK. Paraphrase: "As long as there are people to keep fighting evil, one can hope it will defeated again and again, and that's enough." In other words, you don't have to solve the world's problems once and for all to be a hero. Every effort to spread good and defeat evil is good, worthwhile, and meaningful, regardless of the size of the victory. This is demonstrated even more by Neville's points at the leaving feast. He stood up for what was right, even though he accomplished nothing, but that in itself was good, worthwhile, and meaningful. 2. In PoA, Harry's unhappy that Pettigrew got away, that Black was not exonerated, etc. Dumbledore tells him that that's OK too. Paraphrase: "You saved an innocent life. That is worth everything in the world." In other words, again, don't waste time worrying about the big picture. A real good accomplished in your own backyard is worth dozens of grand acts of heroism that never get done. And, more importantly, human life is too precious to measure. Saving one person is so precious that you can never overlook it, no matter what else happens. This is a statement of the overriding sanctity of human life. 3. In GoF, Harry learns to take life one day at a time. More of the same sort of stuff in time rather than space: Do your bit and don't worry about the big picture until it comes under your nose. 4. Lupin's speech in PoA about wasting James's and Lily's sacrifice for a bag of magic tricks makes a point about responsiblity that Ron and Harry seem to accept. 5. PS, CoS and GoF are full of comments about and depictions of the (fickle) nature and (lack of) importance of fame. 6. Hermione in PS tells Harry that the most important things are (paraphrase): "bravery, and friendship, and ... [I forget what]." 7. The whole series is permeated with the idea of the importance of friends, and even more, of family. The reason that family is so important is not spelled out, it's just presented as powerfully (self- )evident. 8. Rule-breaking is seen as a risky, but not necessarily evil option. Rules are man-made and can be fallible, as Dumbledore tells H&R when they come up from the chamber of secrets. Paraphrase: "I told you that if you broke the rules again, I would have to punish you severely. Well, I guess there is only one thing to do now. Eat my words." When HRH break rules for well-thought-out reasons, they sometimes get into trouble, but are not despised. When they break rules for fun, they sometimes don't get into trouble, but they eventually lose their self-respect. The moral: Think a dozen times before breaking rules, but if you have to, you have to, and then you still might have to take the consequences. 9. HRH still haven't learned not to break up and refuse to speak to each other, but that doesn't mean that JKR condones such behavior. It's probably just a lesson that is yet to come. 10. The Dursleys are all about anti-imagination. Clearly imagination is considered a prime value in the Potter books, though you don't see much of it happening in the Potterverse. Lack of imagination seems to be blamed for making people intolerant, while imagination presumably helps a person imagine why that Other might be OK. 11. Lying doesn't get any respect in the books. 12. Technology gets no respect either, and seems to be the antithesis of imagination-magic. Is this a way of promoting the humanities over the sciences? Wizards, says Hermione, often have no logic. Is this an approval of literature vs. a distaste for Math(s)? At the same time, the WW is not more comfortable or happier than the Muggle world, just more fun for us to read about. So all this imagination-lack of logic- magic-humanities doesn't prove itself in the long run, while the Dursleys seem to prove that technology doesn't prove itself when taken on its own either. Is JKR aiming for a Kantian reunion of the humanities and sciences (and religion, if future books make good on that score)? 13. In PS, discussing the Mirror of Erised, Dumbledore tells Harry not to dwell on dreams and forget to live. This is odd coming from the author of thousands of pages of a best-selling fantasy. However, JK actually makes it easy (relatively speaking) not to dwell on her dream. For one thing, as I wrote above, her WW is not more comfortable or happier than RL. There are still tests and bullies and unfair teachers and homework and illnesses and dangers and so on. And the castle is cold in the winter and hot in the summer. The lighting isn't great. And significantly, there aren't enough fun things to do. In their free time, the kids play gobstones and exploding snap over and over. We have yet to hear about any clubs and other extracurriculars other than Quidditch. No one plays music or even listens to music. Moving pictures are fun, but I'm very surprised the Muggle-borns don't sometimes wish for a good movie. Telephones are better than owls for most things. Anyone who's interested can continue this list. Another interesting thing about this "dream" that JKR wants us "not to dwell on" is that none of the non-human creatures is appealing. In LOTR, it is easy to wish one were a High Elf. In Narnia, one could wish to be a lion (till one gets the symbolism). In HP, there isn't a single creature one could wish to be. Even the centaurs are portrayed as quite limited. So ultimately, the moral message is: Don't wish to magically be someone or someplace else. Be happy with who and where you are. Have imagination, yes, but use it to enhance your relationship to RL, not to substitute for it. I think that's plenty for now. The Admiring Skeptic From elfundeb at comcast.net Thu Mar 13 13:31:59 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 08:31:59 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quidditch as Metaphor/Krum References: <20030313052052.78422.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000401c2e964$eccf3880$723b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53688 I wrote, on Krum's taking the snitch knowing Bulgaria would lose: > > 3. The final score was 170 to 160. > > He gave up on his team when they > > only needed to score only two more > > goals in order to put victory within > > reach. One goal would have put a tie > > within reach. Krum's action sealed > > the team's defeat. > Petra Pan responded: > Ah, here's where our readings diverge. > I don't see Krum as having given up > on his team at all, and he'd be > justified seeing that they were down > 160 points right before he caught > the Snitch. > > In order for Bulgaria to win in your > scenario, two things have to happen: > (1) Krum must catch the Snitch AFTER > (2) Bulgaria outpace Ireland by at least > two goals. And the previous action in > this game does not support this scenario: > Ireland is scoring 16 goals for every > goal that Bulgaria scored. > I've seen many a sporting event in which one team appears completely outmatched in the early going, until something happens which shakes them up and gets their adrenaline going, spurring on a stirring comeback. The role of momentum and attitude in sporting events can be just as important as talent. Krum snatched an opportunity from his team at a point in time when they were not completely out of the game, and whether he did it in order to win glory or not, that was the effect. He lacked faith in his team, and clinched their loss. > Then there's the fact that Lynch spots > the Snitch as Krum was taking a bludger > to his face. At this point no feint is > going to divert Lynch and no referee is > stopping the game. What could Krum > do but to go after the Snitch despite > having just been injured? Foul Lynch? > Can't really tell from text if it's > even possible for Krum to do so.... > But Lynch takes himself out of the chase. "[Krum] was drawing level with Lynch now as the pair of them hurtled toward the ground again . . . for the second time, Lynch hit the ground with tremendous force and was immediately stampeded by a horde of angry veela. . . . Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose, was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint of gold in his hand." As I read this passage, the snitch hovered very close to the ground, and Lynch crashed trying to get it (he may have already been suffering from a concussion at this point and his concentration might have been off). I don't think Krum played dirty by fouling Lynch. Instead, Krum had a clear choice and he chose to take the snitch rather than to let it go. > Seeing that Ireland is outscoring > Bulgaria by 160 points at the time Krum > ended the game, perhaps we may extrapolate > from that ratio that perhaps by the time > that Bulgaria scores that two additional > goals, Ireland may possibly be hundreds of > points ahead. If so, the 150 points that > the Snitch would bring would not do > Bulgaria much good. This is why the fact > that Krum caught the Snitch in this > sequence of events doesn't indicate his > inability to be a team player to me, which > is why I don't see why he'd be the foil to > TeamPlayer!Harry. > My take is that Lynch's failure to capture the snitch after having spotted it first could have been the catalytic event spurring the Bulgarian team to take their own game up a notch. They weren't necessarily hopelessly out of it at that point. Bulgaria had 10 points, which it earned the hard way and not through a penalty shot, so they were not incapable of scoring against the Irish team. I think I might feel differently about Krum's actions if his team was down by 300 to 10. Krum should have felt pretty confident at that point that he could beat Lynch to the snitch, unless his own broken nose and black eyes were robbing him of his concentration. However, his refusal to accept medical attention for his injuries afterwards (which Harry sees through the omnioculars) can be read to suggest that Krum did not want to appear weak in public in any way. Perhaps he did think his grab of the snitch preserved a measure of dignity for Bulgaria. Perhaps his coach's treatment of him as the unquestioned star without whom the team would have gone nowhere led him to believe that his catching the snitch was the only thing that mattered. It just so happened that it emphasized his stardom and left his team in the dust. Debbie who wishes everyone could be a winner [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From elfundeb at comcast.net Thu Mar 13 13:45:06 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 08:45:06 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dursleys' Fears (WAS: Redeeming the Dursleys References: Message-ID: <001b01c2e966$c1d9af00$723b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53689 Naamagatus raised some objections to my theory that James and Sirius had possibly played tricks on Vernon at some point: > When did James and Sirius have > the *time* to play magical tricks on Vernon? Petunia is Lily's > younger sister, and Lily married early in life. Therefore, it's > almost certain that Petunia married after Lily did. IIRC, there is no canon clearly establishing either sister as older or younger. However, the inferences suggest that it's more likely that Petunia is the older sister. Based on the Lexicon timeline, James and Lily left Hogwarts in 1978 and Harry was born in 1980. As you suggest, that's not a lot of time. But Dudley is older than Harry by a month or two. Moreover, Vernon is, on November 1, 1981, the director of a drill factory, suggesting he is significantly older than 21 (James and Lily's ages at that time). While it's not impossible, obviously, for an older Vernon to have married Petunia while she was still a teenager, that's not the most likely scenario. Now, James and But PS makes it clear that Petunia and Vernon > were never in touch with Lily and James. No, it only states that "they hadn't met for several years." This is a reference to Lily only; canon is silent on James. Besides, James wouldn't be > playing tricks on his brother in law at that stage. He is no longer a > kid, he is fighting ultimate evil, and I'm sure that Lily wouldn't > have wanted her sister to be further alienated from her. > But nothing in canon contradicts the possibility that Vernon and Petunia were married while James and Lily were still at Hogwarts. Nor is it necessarily true that James would have told Lily in advance what was being planned. > Secondly, I don't think that Vernon is scared enough of magic and > magical people to make it reasonable for him to have encountered > magic before - certainly not directed against him. His fear is mainly > one of social shame - he can't bear the thought of being known to > have a link with these "freaks." Do you really think he would have > threatened Hagrid with a gun if he had had previous encounteres with > powerful wizards? If he had, he must know how futile a gun is in such > circumstances. > That's exactly why I suggested that Vernon's prior experience with magic was in the form of a prank of some kind. Vernon simply doesn't understand how much power wizards have. Instead, he thinks that they learn "magic tricks" at Hogwarts. In fact, it's important for him to believe that all they learn is the wherewithal to engage in sophomoric pranks, because Vernon fears being powerless. He threatens Hagrid with a gun because he really wants to believe that Muggle power is greater than magical power, and he hasn't had any experience with a wizard that was really out to hurt him, so he doesn't know how tragic the consequences of such a threat could be. Fortunately for him, Hagrid wouldn't hurt a fly. > Thirdly, I don't *want* Vernon to have a reasonable reason to hate > magic . I think it would dim a) the burlesque and b) the moral > point that JKR is making (I think) through the Dursleys about bigotry > and prejudice. > I think JKR's points about prejudice are better made if her vehicles include prejudiced characters who are fully fleshed out and not merely caricatures. I've never been impressed by the Dursley episodes and think they are ripe for further character development in OoP. And I just noticed this question of Greicy's: > How does Sirius know exactly where to find Harry at the Dursley's > on Privet Drive? One possible answer is that he and James had been there before in pursuit of mischief. ;-} Debbie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 14:12:55 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 06:12:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Halloween in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030313141255.51579.qmail@web40512.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53690 greatlit2003 wrote: I noticed something unusual in the scene in Lockhart's office on Halloween in COS, when Mrs. Norris was petrified. Dumbledore and McGonagall were trying to revive the cat, but Snape just stood there, not saying a word, and trying not to smile. This is not at all consistent with his behavior in other books, because we know that he is a take-charge type of person. He is never so passive. Why was he smiling? "greatlit2003" I think it might have had something to do with the situation as a whole. With Filch freaking out and blaming Harry. Also, I don't think Snape would take-charge when Dumbledore is there. Snape can be in charge as a teacher when he's the only authority around, or when there are other teachers. But, when the Headmaster and Deputy Headmistress are there....you step back and let them take care of it. ~Kathryn --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hp at plum.cream.org Thu Mar 13 14:21:35 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 14:21:35 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dress Robes and a question about Sirius/Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030313131129.009598c0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53691 At 03:57 13/03/03 , grace701 wrote: >My first question is can anyone direct me to where I can see what dress >robes look like? I have never seen one before and I find it hard to >imagine what the Trio, and everyone else, are wearing for the Yule >Ball. I automatically switch to suits and dresses. Plus, I just can't >picture guys wearing robes, if that's what it actually looks like. Well, in the books, the kids wear robes all the time. So unless you're suffering movie contamination, you should be able to imagine it. There was a very lengthy discussion in October about just how true to the books the movie costumes were, just what JKR means by "robes". If you're having trouble imagining boys wearing robes, take a look at this page (it came up during that discussion): http://home.freeuk.com/mkb/SUG/Blcoat.htm although, strictly speaking, they're wearing "coats" rather than "robes", but you get the picture. >How does Sirius know exactly where to find Harry at the Dursley's on >Privet Drive? Strictly speaking, he finds him in Magnolia Crescent rather than Privet Drive. Where Harry lives seems to be fairly common knowledge in the magical community (Harry recalls having encountered one or two wizards during his childhood and they knew who he was). Furthermore, although the Dursleys never wanted to have anything to do with the Potters, I suspect that Lily and James, being the downright decent people they were, would have sent them a Christmas card every year anyway so they would have known the address. (It probably would have immediately landed in the bin, but that's another issue.) As their best friend, Sirius probably would have known too. He certainly would know their name, at the very least. Remembering that they lived in a place called Little Whinging is no big stretch. You don't need deliberate mnemonics to associate the Dursleys with that place name! :-) So Sirius could simply have prowled around Little Whinging in dog form and waited to see something James-like; considering Harry's appearance is so much like his dad's (not to mention he was hauling a trunk at the time of the encounter), Sirius would've known who he was even if he'd not seen a picture of him somewhere. Or, being a wizard with his best friend's wife a Muggle-born, he may well have learned something about Muggle technology and simply used a telephone directory. :-) >And why hasn't Lupin tried to contact Harry once he's reached Hogwarts? Mainly, plot reasons. That, however, is an unacceptable explanation. :-) Psychologically, it's perfectly understandable that he might not want to get involved, both for his own good and Harry's. It's clear that Harry doesn't know much about his parents' past, and Lupin could easily come to the conclusion that Harry wants to distance himself from that knowledge, that talking or thinking about his parents is painful for him (which it is). Or, he could be under orders from Dumbledore (again, mainly for plot reasons) :-) not to discuss anything about Harry's and his parents' past unless he's asked a direct question. Furthermore, Lupin is embarrassed about his lycanthtropic status, and any mention of James's past is inextricably linked with that, so perhaps thinking about those days is painful for *him*. Not to mention that everyone who knew James as a boy sees him in Harry, and I suspect that for all of James's friends, his name has immediate connotations with his death and the dark times. Overall, I don't have any problem buying Lupin's reluctance to talk to Harry in PoA, although I do have a little difficulty in accepting his silence throughout GoF. Sure, Harry has Sirius to contact if he needs to, but Sirius is still formally an escaped convict. Contacting his former teacher, whose reputation is still fairly intact, would be far more sensible. My main problem with PoA is Lupin's reluctance to tell Dumbledore about Sirius's Animagus status. Lupin was presumably employed as DADA teacher to keep an eye on Harry and to protect him, and to assist in apprehending Sirius. Keeping silent about the fact that he can transform is a pretty major oversight. He wouldn't have needed to go into detail about how it came about; he could even have been tentative about it and he needed to say was "I think that Sirius might be able to turn into a huge black dog. Be on the lookout for one". Black had got into the school grounds, attacked the Fat Lady, and even got as far as the boys' dorm. I don't buy Lupin's explanation that Black had done it using Dark Magic. There seems to be a blase attitude that Hogwarts is protected from ingression by any means - Sirius's ability to get through *must* have been down to more than the protections were geared up for, and an Animagus made perfect sense... -- GulPlum AKA Richard, rambling again From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 15:18:29 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 15:18:29 -0000 Subject: Harry and Hermione being siblings In-Reply-To: <20030312222713.4302.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53692 Christine wrote: > Christine, who has an autographed copy of the same > book Greicy is reading, Ultimate Unofficial Guide to > Harry Potter, and will gladly tell the story behind it > if anyone cares to hear it, and was absolutely > flabbergasted by some of the things the book pointed > out, and also promised the lady from whom she got it > that she would recommend it, and therefore commences > recommending Yes would you please tell the story behind it! I'm not done yet. I am still in book 2, trying to take my sweet time reading it so as not to miss, or forget, anything. Though I think I already have. Greicy, who is just reminded that she is much like Neville: forgetful From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 15:38:30 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 15:38:30 -0000 Subject: SHIPping and a GoF Clue (was Re: Concerns for Harry's Well-Being) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53693 >But another thought I always have, and maybe why I love the Weasley >family for Harry, and support those who wish to see Harry and Ginny >together, is that Harry has never, not once, had someone to say "I >love you," to him after the age of one. Never. That just... I >can't fathom that. Hey Hey Hey! No H/G love here, please...lol. Just kidding. It would be nice to see a nice big happy family with Ron and Hermione and Harry and Ginny, but how about extending the family a bit. H/H, Ron and Lavendar!, Ginny and Neville! We add two new people to the mix. Harry and Hermione are already considered family so why does it have to be literal. ;) Let me extend the family even more: Fred/George with Angelina (can't remember who asked her to the Yule Ball, but I think it was Fred) and perhaps Bill and Fleur, although he is older than her, I don't think she or he would mind. ;) Now to the important part: >I don't particularly agree with this, somehow. I agree that Ms. >Figg was probably there to watch over him, maybe even his secret >keeper, like so many have proposed. But I do think Voldemort >always knew he was staying with the Dursleys, if you read his >speech to the Death Eaters at the end of book four. In summary, he >basically says that Harry has had an ancient form of protection not >even he knows about, and that he (Lord V) can't touch Harry while >Harry is at his relatives. I also don't know if the fact that >Harry is staying with blood-relatives is relevant, I don't see any >proof for or against that theory. Should we take this as a GoF clue. Voldemort obviously knows that Harry cannot be touched while at the Dursleys. Wormtail knows Harry visits the Weasley in the summer, at least Wormtail saw that he does in CoS. I'm sure Voldemort will try to do something to Harry, or a Weasley, while at the Weasley's. There's no doubt in my mind that Wormtail wouldn't suggest to do something during the last two weeks of the summer holidays. I bet Malfoy would *love* to be apart of anything to do with the Weasleys as well. Perhaps Ginny could help? =) > > Anne wrote: > > * The Dursleys, for whatever reason (perhaps we will find out in > > OoP), seem to have a pathological fear of all things magical. They > > refused to tell Harry not only the truth about his parents, but > > also > > the truth about him being a wizard. So Harry spent 10 years > > completely unaware of both his own fame within the wizarding world > > and the reasons for his unusual abilities. Dumbledore, knowing > > that > > Harry would eventually have to face Voldemort again (and again, > > and > > again), may have thought it was better for Harry NOT to grow up > > being > > fawned over as "The Boy Who Lived". (viz. the reaction of various > > wizards he runs into during his childhood, e.g. the man in the > > green > > cloak who bows to him in the bakery). > > > I don't know about this as well. We do know Dumbledore has not told > Harry everything about Halloween 1981, which is obvious in what he > says to Harry at the end of Philosopher's Stone. And we know > Dumbledore didn't want Harry growing up in the limelight (Chapter > one of Philosopher's Stone). But Hagrid apparently thought Harry > would know he was a wizard and that his parents went to Hogwarts > when Hagrid went to pick him up from the house on a rock in > Philosopher's Stone. So, I don't think Dumbledore meant for Harry > to grow up not knowing anything, though he probably realized the > Dursleys were more prone to let Harry remain in the dark. > Dumbledore has never lied to Harry, but I do think he hides just > about everything Harry would find important about his identity (i.e. > we, and Harry, know virtually nothing about his parents or > ancestors, and also where the Gryffindor's heir theory comes from). > And as for my theory on Dumbledore, I think he'll pull a Yoda, and > die, leaving Harry completely on his own (read the Pensieve chapter > in Goblet of Fire: Rowling goes on and on about how Harry notices > how old Dumbledore is looking now). > > Anyway, back to the Dursleys. I do think it probable that the > Dursleys may be the ones to somehow have magic involved later in > their lives, as Rowling stated in an interview. Dudley would be an > amusing choice for me, I would like to see Harry's reaction, and > Dudley's struggles at Hogwarts (think how Malfoy would react to > Harry's cousin!). But I don't really think that likely. For > whatever reason, the Dursleys do have a morbid fear of magic, and > yet they've kept Harry all these years. That doesn't really add > up. Unless Dumbledore somehow threatened them in that letter he > left with the one-year-old Harry on their doorstep, there has to be > something else making the Dursleys let Harry stay. I don't think > it's a last stab at human decency. I suppose we'll have to wait and > see. > > As for the Petunia is a squib theory: I find that unsupportable. > She's muggle-born, like Lily. Meaning she's just a muggle. She's > have to be a muggle with wizard parents in order to be considered a > squib. > > So anyway, there are my thoughts on the topic. Guess we'll know > when the Harry Potter Goddess herself (a.k.a. J.K. Rowling) lets us > know. > > Brittany From seventhsqueal at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 16:22:37 2003 From: seventhsqueal at yahoo.com (SeventhSqueal) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 08:22:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape smiling, half in shadow (was Halloween in CoS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030313162237.51403.qmail@web10703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53694 greatlit2003 wrote: Snape just stood there, not saying a word, and trying not to smile. This is not at all consistent with his behavior in other books, because we know that he is a take-charge type of person. He is never so passive. Why was he smiling? 7thSqueal reponds: IMO Snape knows that the diary was loosed upon someone in the school. He's not taking charge because he's a little stunned and having an emotional moment that would be indiscreet if noticed. He's trying not to smile because he's thinking, "Oh, my god! It worked! Someone used Dad's diary to open the Chamber of Secrets". That chamber and the basilisk within are relics of Slytherin House. If he wasn't sure that the Chamber existed, he's probably pretty happy to get confirmation that the legendary hidey-hole is fact. He's kind of proud. I think the weird sisters look like a cross between the B-52's and the characters in Limbo's waiting room in the old movie Beetlejuice. Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250; ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ~SeventhSqueal There's no earthly way of knowing / Which direction we are going / There's no knowing where we're rowing / Or which way the river's flowing / Is it raining? / Is it snowing? / Is a hurricane a-blowing? / Not a speck of light is showing / So the danger must be growing / Are the fires of hell a-glowing? / Is the grisly reaper mowing? / Yes, the danger must be growing / 'Cause the rowers keep on rowing / And they're certainly not showing / Any signs that they are slowing! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 16:28:35 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 16:28:35 -0000 Subject: Halloween in COS In-Reply-To: <20030313141255.51579.qmail@web40512.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53695 greatlit2003 wrote: > I noticed something unusual in the scene in Lockhart's office on > Halloween in COS, when Mrs. Norris was petrified. Dumbledore and > McGonagall were trying to revive the cat, but Snape just stood > there, not saying a word, and trying not to smile. This is not at > all consistent with his behavior in other books, because we know > that he is a take-charge type of person. He is never so passive. > Why was he smiling? > Kathryn wrote: > I think it might have had something to do with the situation as a > whole. With Filch freaking out and blaming Harry. Also, I don't > think Snape would take-charge when Dumbledore is there. Snape can > be in charge as a teacher when he's the only authority around, or > when there are other teachers. But, when the Headmaster and Deputy > Headmistress are there....you step back and let them take care of > it. > Great ideas. Also, Snape wore a "peculiar expression" that Harry interprets as it looking like Snape were trying to stifle a smile. Just as the sounds of laughing and crying can be similar, I wonder if Snape were trying to stifle his horror. This could coincide with theories that Mrs. Norris was once a person whom Snape loved, and also with Double!Agent Snape, knowing that his Slytherins (or at least Malfoy, who is present for this scene) would find it suspicious for Snape to be upset. - Nobody's Rib From mavencree at hotmail.com Thu Mar 13 06:59:54 2003 From: mavencree at hotmail.com (mavencree) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 06:59:54 -0000 Subject: Underage Magic at the Weasley's (and in general) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53696 Self defense definitely would have to be an exception to the rule. Other than that, I think the law is in place to protect muggle-borns and/or underaged wizards living with muggles. I mean, imagine if say Neville lived with muggles, and set an engorgement charm on someone's head or something. And all he has is a toad, and no owl to call for help. The person could die. I don't think the Ministry is as concerned for families with adult wizards. If they were they would probably age-mark the spells or put tracers on them for underaged people. I think the Ministry is aware of where magical families are, and when magic shows up where they know no adult witch or wizard to be, that's when they investigate. Maven From gingerssnap1966 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 17:30:28 2003 From: gingerssnap1966 at yahoo.com (gingerssnap1966) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 17:30:28 -0000 Subject: Halloween in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53697 > greatlit2003 wrote: > > I noticed something unusual in the scene in Lockhart's office on > > Halloween in COS, when Mrs. Norris was petrified. Dumbledore and > > McGonagall were trying to revive the cat, but Snape just stood > > there, not saying a word, and trying not to smile. This is not at > > all consistent with his behavior in other books, because we know > > that he is a take-charge type of person. He is never so passive. > > Why was he smiling? Nobody's Rib replied: Great ideas. Also, Snape wore a "peculiar expression" that Harry > interprets as it looking like Snape were trying to stifle a smile. > Just as the sounds of laughing and crying can be similar, I wonder if > Snape were trying to stifle his horror. This could coincide with > theories that Mrs. Norris was once a person whom Snape loved, and > also with Double!Agent Snape, knowing that his Slytherins (or at > least Malfoy, who is present for this scene) would find it suspicious > for Snape to be upset. > Now me: I hate to argue, but I just did a reread of CoS. Malfoy was in the hall where they found Mrs. Norris (and made a spectacle of himself) but the passage in question was after the Trio, Filch and the Professors were in Lockhart's office. Personally, I think Snape was doing the happy dance on the inside because Harry was going to be expelled and he didn't have to get his hands dirty causing it. I'm sure he knew better than to think Harry was guilty, but an expulsion is an expulsion. Ginger, who is still laughing at the 3 ton rhino assassin From ladyfarro at attbi.com Thu Mar 13 09:36:34 2003 From: ladyfarro at attbi.com (kae) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 01:36:34 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Hagrid's going to die References: Message-ID: <037201c2e944$4f34bf20$3caae10c@attbi.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53698 I've hated to think that Hagrid is going to die, because to tell you the truth he is my favorite character! However, as sad as that is, I'm beginning to realize that Hagrid's death would perhaps bring some much--needed emotions to the forefront! Often teenagers are faced with the loss of a adult, (grandparent), and although Hagrid of course is not a grandparent he is a adult who has always been a guide and friend to Harry. His death would be one more reason for Harry to be faced with how he will deal with Voldemort! And, I think that Molly Weasley could help Harry realize Lady Farro who adores Hagrid and Fang tears can be healing, not sappy. From AdairFletch at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 13 14:10:55 2003 From: AdairFletch at bellsouth.net (Brittany) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 14:10:55 -0000 Subject: Halloween in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53699 greatlit2003 wrote: > I noticed something unusual in the scene in Lockhart's office on > Halloween in COS, when Mrs. Norris was petrified. Dumbledore and > McGonagall were trying to revive the cat, but Snape just stood > there, not saying a word, and trying not to smile. This is not at > all consistent with his behavior in other books, because we know > that he is a take-charge type of person. He is never so passive. > Why was he smiling? Ok, I have time before class to type in a quick answer. If I remember correctly, Snape does what greatlit describes, and then later in the conversation smiles hugely when it looks as if he may be able to get Harry in trouble for something. Then he gets rather angry when it looks as if he can't. Doesn't he try to get him suspended from playing Quidditch or something? I can't remember every detail, but anyway, I think the slight smile earlier on would be because *Harry* and, of course, Ron and Hermione, were found by Ms. Norris and the writing on the wall. Also, even though Snape is apparently loyal to Dumbledore, I think he would still hold dislike for muggle-borns and squibs. I mean, he was a Death Eater once. So, he probably found the whole thing at least slightly amusing - it was Filch's cat that was petrified. I think he would have taken it far more seriously if it had been a student. But honestly, I do think Snape trustworthy, and I wouldn't nitpick this too much. Brittany From gingerssnap1966 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 18:01:42 2003 From: gingerssnap1966 at yahoo.com (gingerssnap1966) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 18:01:42 -0000 Subject: Filk: Time-turner Girl Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53700 Dedicated to Haggridd, who gave me the idea and some helpful hints. Time-turner Girl A filk on Calendar Girl by Neil Sedaka Note: *words in asterisks* are Hermione's thoughts since I can't figure out how to do italics and she can't say them out loud without breaking her promise :) HG: *I've got a secret; I'm a Time-turner girl* (repeat) HP, RW: Divination! HG: A waste of time, I fear. HP, RW: History! HG: Binns just bores me to a tear. HP,RW: Charms! HG: With spells and hexes we should know. HP, RW: Potions! HG: I think Neville's cauldron's gonna blow. HP, RW: Turn. Round. She's gone in a whirl. We don't know how she does it. HG: *I'm a time-turner girl.* HP, RW: She's all work. And no play. All the year. HP, RW: Runes! HG: Others quail and look on it with fright. HP, RW: Astronomy! HG: Up learning constellations late at night. HP, RW: Muggle studdies! HG: Not like I had to learn all that here. HP, RW: D.A.D.A.! HG: With a different teacher every year. (repeat chorus) HP, RW: Transfiguration! HG: Animagus status, here I come. HP, RW: Arithmancy! HG: Not a class for slackers or for those who're dumb. HP, RW: Herbology! HG: Meeting flora that at first seem strange. HP, RW: Care of M.C.! HG: Fauna in Hagrid's home on the range. HP, RW: Turn. Round. She's gone in a whirl. We don't know how she does it. HG: *I'm a time-turner girl.* HP, RW: She's all work. HG:(I'm all work.) HP, RW: And no play. HG: (And no play.) Trio: All the year. Another note: apologies on not making the classes scan. Ginger From dorigen at hotmail.com Thu Mar 13 18:10:11 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 18:10:11 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Hagrid's going to die Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53701 >I've hated to think that Hagrid is going to die, because to tell you the >truth he is my favorite character! Mine too. He's so very lovable. I like and enjoy all of the characters in different ways (except for the ones you're supposed to despise, like the Malfoys and Voldemort). I even respect Snape. But Hagrid is the one I just want to hug and feed chocolate chip cookies. I really hope it's not him. I have also always believed that Hagrid had much more part in Dumbledore's work and plans than is obvious. Because he's so big, he "hides in plain sight" and can be used for messages and missions right under the Death Eaters' noses (who rescued Harry? Who got the Philosopher's Stone out of Gringotts?). And I hope we'll find out what he was doing in Knockturn Alley when he met Harry. (Flesh eating slug repellent. Yeah, right. Why are you doing this and not Professor Sprout, Hagrid?) Of course, sooner or later, someone dangerous will catch on to him, and that might be the cause of his death. Janet Anderson (And it would be too cruel for Hagrid to come back as a ghost, since ghosts can't eat or drink, and Hagrid loves his liquid refreshment) * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Mar 13 18:12:19 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 18:12:19 -0000 Subject: Rowling and Philosophy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53702 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: > Treason, the betrayal of a trust, is a pretty hefty crime. > But we don't have Voldemort on it yet. To which I replied that Ginny and Hogwarts itself were victims of Voldemort's treason. Tom said: >>>it's not the kind of 'selling your loved ones down the river' kind of treason for which Brutus, Cassius, and Judas were responsible.<<< I see what you're getting at, but I'm not sure Dante would. Cassius was not an intimate friend of Caesar's. The story, according to Plutarch, http://www.4literature.net/Plutarch/Marcus_Brutus/2.html was that Caesar forgave Cassius for siding with his rival Pompey. For Cassius to turn on him was then considered particularly vile, as if Snape were to turn on Dumbledore after being given his second chance. I believe Dante chose his three mortal sinners to represent treason against spiritual, temporal and familial benefactors, with Lucifer of course having commited all three. ( Brutus was supposed to have been Caesar's natural son.) To the medieval mind, their sin was not to betray someone they loved. Rather, it was to fail in love toward someone to whom they owed fealty: a father, spiritual superior, or lord. Since Christianity teaches that if men were not sinful they would love even their enemies, I'm not sure how your definition could be applied in Dante's cosmos, since any betrayal would be a betrayal of someone who should be loved. Though perhaps Riddle's betrayal of Ginny would not put Voldemort in Dante's lowest circle, since he doesn't owe her fealty, it is no mere fraud. He couldn't have invaded her soul without winning her trust at the deepest level. This is very unlike, say, Bagman's fraud on the Twins which relies simply on the general social contract not to pass false coin. All that said, I see what you mean. But of course it's impossible for Voldemort to betray anybody he really cares about, since according to Dumbledore he doesn't really care about anyone, even his own followers. The Trio have all at various times felt betrayed by one another, but it has always turned out to be a misunderstanding on some level. Harry has yet to be betrayed by anyone he really cares about. Ron is the only one who's experienced that kind of betrayal, by Scabbers. Maybe that explains his attitude in GoF, when he becomes so deeply suspicious of Harry and Hermione too. I think Harry will experience such a betrayal eventually, and of course I see Lupin as the most likely candidate. I don't think that this will undermine the position Rowling is presenting about prejudice but rather permit her to test and amplify it. But that's another post. Pippin From lupinesque at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 18:31:38 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 18:31:38 -0000 Subject: Betrayal (was Rowling and Philosophy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53703 Pippin wrote: > Harry has yet to be betrayed by anyone he really cares > about. We do seem to be working up to it, though, don't we? For one thing, although he has not himself been betrayed in this way, he knows how deep betrayal can go, because it's how his parents met their deaths. He had those minutes of thinking he was betrayed by Lupin (no doubt you would call it foreshadowing ). And to a lesser degree, in PA he feels betrayed by the people who knew his parents' story but concealed it from him: Hagrid, Dumbledore, Mr. Weasley. It is not a betrayal on Dante's grand scale, but there is an erosion of trust there. (BTW, Brooklyn Dodgers fans know that there's a fourth figure in Satan's jaws in that final circle of the inferno: Walter O'Malley.) > Ron is the only one who's experienced that kind of > betrayal, by Scabbers. Maybe that explains his attitude in GoF, > when he becomes so deeply suspicious of Harry and > Hermione too. Great point. "I let you sleep in my bed!" which I think is not disgust at having had another person (and a man) in his bed unawares, but horror at having extended trust and intimacy to a murderer. Amy Z who often suspects her cat of being human, but is sure she's benign From gandharvika at hotmail.com Thu Mar 13 18:35:20 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 18:35:20 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Voldemort (Not Thomas M. Riddle) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53704 Voldemort (Not Thomas M. Riddle) (A FILK to the tune of _Istanbul (Not Constantinople)_ as performed by They Might Be Giants) Okay, show of hands. Who remembers the group They Might Be Giants? You *know*...Anna Ng? Cow Town? C'mon, I can't be the only one out here! Sing along to the Midi here (it's fun!): http://members.fortunecity.com/ultimate_midi_madness/Alternative.html Voldemort not Thomas M. Riddle Now it's Voldemort not Thomas M. Riddle Been a while since he was Thomas M. Riddle He wanted to change his Muggle father's name He was known as Thomas M. Riddle Switched to Voldemort from Thomas M. Riddle So don't try to look for Thomas M. Riddle You will only find Voldemort It is also true He is known as You-Know-Who Most wizards are still quite afraid That's why they don't speak Voldy's name You want to meet Mister Thomas M. Riddle? No, you can not greet Mister Thomas M. Riddle Now it's Voldemort not Thomas M. Riddle How did Thomas M. Riddle make the change? The letters of his name he re-arranged -Gail B... When I was driving once I saw this painted on a bridge: "I don't want the world, I just want your half" - Anna Ng _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From gingerssnap1966 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 18:49:32 2003 From: gingerssnap1966 at yahoo.com (gingerssnap1966) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 18:49:32 -0000 Subject: Filk: You can call me Goyle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53705 You can call me Goyle A filk on Paul Simon's "You can call me Al" Dedicated to GulPlum for his wonderful essay on A and O levels, which answered so many of my wonderings, and also for his punctuational perfection. Harry sings to Ron: A boy walks down the hall He says Why am I hearing these voices now Why am I hearing these voices The rest of my friends don't hear all. I need a course in parseltongue. I want a shot at Salazar. Don't want to end up a Slyth'rin In a dungeon-like hall. Polyjuice, polyjuice. Fluxweed in moonlight. Far away from my Gryffindor. Mr Slytherin, Slytherin "Get the heir away from me." You know I don't find this stuff amusing any more. If you'll be the pudding-head I can be the comic foil. I can call you Crabby, And Crabby, when you call me, You can call me Goyle. A boy walks down the hall He says Why do I get this attention. I get "Heir of Slyth'ryn" attention. Can only take it so long. Where's Ron and Hermione? What if I die here? Who'll hear the Slyth monster? Now that the Slyth monster is Gone, gone He ducked back in the septic tank With some roly-poly little pimply girl. All along, all along There were incidents of petrif'cation. There were hints and allegations. If you'll be the pudding-head I can be the comic foil. I can call you Crabby, And Crabby, when you call me, You can call me Goyle. Call me Goyle. A boy walks down the hall It's a hall in a dungeon. Maybe it's the Slyth dungeon. Maybe it's his first time around. He doesn't know the password. He knows no prefects. He is a Gryffin boy He is surrounded by the Slyths The Slyths Malfoy with his newspost clipping. Drawingrooms in Malfoy Manor. He looks around, around. He sees serpents in the architecture. Polyjuice is wearing off He says Pomfrey! and Stomach potion! If you'll be the pudding-head I can be the comic foil. I can call you Crabby And Crabby, when you call me, You can call me Goyle. Call me Goyle. Ginger From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 10:24:50 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 10:24:50 -0000 Subject: Too much genetics? (was: Harry & Hermione siblings?)/Choices In-Reply-To: <20030312222713.4302.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53706 You know... I've been thinking about Dumbledore raging at Fudge: "You pay all too much attention to the so called pure blood..." could this have been a message/clue to us readers? I mean really, all this talk about Harry/Hermione as siblings, Harry as descendant of Godric Gryffindor/all or most founders, Magic in Genes and what not, does it matter? I don't think that Harry's genetical relations to are of much importance, just something Harry needs to know of his parents and something to do with Dursleys and that protection magic. Since Harry "found" Sirius, Dursleys aren't really a bother anymore, nor does his lack for parents pain him as much as it used to. Sure, Sirius might tell Harry stories about James or Petunia things of Lily, but I think those need to wait until they capture Peter... -- Finwitch From grosich at nyc.rr.com Thu Mar 13 13:39:57 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina R Rosich) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 08:39:57 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Useless Animagus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53707 On 3/12/03 8:29 PM, "Anne" had this to say: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "buddhacat" > wrote: > >> > But, even if forms are not chosen, which came >> > first, the animal form or the profession? I mean, what if Rita >> > became a reporter because it suited her insect form? And maybe >> > Minerva is used to inflitrate Muggle areas because she can turn > into >> > a cat, not the other way around. So maybe the needs are perfectly >> > adapted to the animal form, rather than the form being perfectly >> > adapted to the needs. > > > > So perhaps Rita Skeeter should be a mosquito?? :-) Does the U.K. even > have mosquitoes?? I certainly hope not; they are horrid creatures > whose sole purpose in life is to suck blood out of humans. On second > thought that sounds just like Rita. > > Anne U > (who would probably be a hippo) > > Let?s not forget mosquitoes also spread malaria... As for odd animagi, it would be funny to see Neville turn into an elephant. (Elephants never forget). I don?t have the books in front of me. But didn?t Sirius mention something about turning into an animal that could take on a werewolf? He didn?t mention there being a choice? --- Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eschaafin at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 17:27:04 2003 From: eschaafin at yahoo.com (Sophie) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 17:27:04 -0000 Subject: Baby Harry with Sirius (WAS: Re: Dress Robes and a question...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53708 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nobodysrib" wrote: > Sirius and Hagrid interact at Godric's Hollow: "Jus' got [Harry] > outta the ruins [of Godric's Hollow], poor little thing, with the > great slash across his forehead, an' his parents dead... an' Sirius > Black turns up, on that flyin' motorbike he used ter ride. Hagrid getting upset and being calmed down> an' I told Black no [to > Black taking Harry], Dumbledore said Harry was ter go ter his aunt > an' uncle's," Hagrid, in PoA US Hardcover page 206) > > > - Nobody's Rib This statrted me thinking: certainly Dumbledore knew that Sirius is Harry's godfather, why didn't he say that Harry should go with him. Sirius hadn't yet been accused of the muggle murders, so did Dubledore have other reasons for not wanting Harry with Sirius? I guess Dumbledore reasoned that it would be simpler to hid Harry in a muggle house, than with another wizard. Sorry if this is a rehash of an earlier topic. -Sophie From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 19:44:53 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 19:44:53 -0000 Subject: Revisited: Pronunciation -Olympe Maxime In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030220015532.00983100@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53709 Back to the pronunciation thread. How do YOU pronounce - Olympe Maxime? Olympe - oh-lim-pee oh-limp oh-lie-ump oh-lie-um-pee Maxime - macks-eem macks-im-ee macks-im-ay macks-eye-um macks-eye-um-ee (or macks-eye-me) For me it's always been - Oh-lim-pee Macks-eem I've always found French pronunciations to be a little odd. How 'bourgeoisie' (bore-geo-issy) ever became boo-zhwa-zee, I will never understand. But then, that's French. Any opinions on Madam Maxime's name? bboy_mn From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 20:16:09 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 20:16:09 -0000 Subject: Betrayal (was Rowling and Philosophy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53710 Replies to both Pippin and The Admiring Skeptic are in this post. Pippin wrote: I see what you're getting at, but I'm not sure Dante would. Cassius was not an intimate friend of Caesar's. I believe Dante chose his three mortal sinners to represent treason against spiritual, temporal and familial benefactors, with Lucifer of course having commited all three. ( Brutus was supposed to have been Caesar's natural son.) To the medieval mind, their sin was not to betray someone they loved. Rather, it was to fail in love toward someone to whom they owed fealty: a father, spiritual superior, or lord. I reply: You know, I'm inclined to agree with you here. So, in the sense of Cassius, it would perhaps be a similar comparison if we were at some point presented with a 'Pettigrew murders Harry' situation, right? Caesar forgave Cassius. Harry saved Pettigrew. Not that it's totally parallel, since Harry's not Pettigrew's 'lord' or anything. But I do see your point. Nice one, too. ;-) I guess I'm not working from a concrete definition of betrayal here, which I think ultimately would include a lot of stuff that I'm not condsidering... I am really just thinking of betrayal between friends/family. The broader stuff that falls under the definition isn't really what I had in mind. And Dante just sprung right into my head when I tried to think of a good example of treason, but I do completely agree that the medieval and modern ideas of Christianity, and what constitutes loyalty and betrayal as seen under those perspectives, are superbly different. Pippin wrote: Though perhaps Riddle's betrayal of Ginny would not put Voldemort in Dante's lowest circle, since he doesn't owe her fealty, it is no mere fraud. He couldn't have invaded her soul without winning her trust at the deepest level. This is very unlike, say, Bagman's fraud on the Twins which relies simply on the general social contract not to pass false coin. I reply: Hmmm. Well, Riddle would have had to *earn* her trust, I agree with that. And I also agree that Ginny probably *felt* deeply betrayed by Tom Riddle. But, is that the same thing? I mean, if Riddle didn't love and care for Ginny and then later change sides to her demise, ala Pettigrew, then I;m not persuaded that it's an indictment for Voldemort on betrayal. Pippin wrote: All that said, I see what you mean. But of course it's impossible for Voldemort to betray anybody he really cares about, since according to Dumbledore he doesn't really care about anyone, even his own followers. I reply: Yup - I totally agree one-hundred-percent here. I don't think we've seen any indication to date that Voldemort ever cared about anyone, really. So in that sense, my point is sort of inapplicable, right, since if Voldemort doesn't care about anyone, then he couldn't betray them along the lines that I'm talking about? Yeah, I see that. On that note, though, I do hope that we find out that he did care about someone deeply, and maybe even that he betrayed them or was betrayed *by* them - although the Lily bit is probably a little too dramatic for me. ;-) The Admiring Skeptic wrote: So, starting at the bottom, we have Draco offering many unprovoked insults for the singular purpose of putting people down. HRH never do that. They respond in kind very often, but they never put people down out of the blue. I reply: Well, they I'm not sure I agree here. Maybe in contrast with Draco, okay, although I really see that comparison in terms of two equally opposed and antagonistic groups. But as for them not putting people down, I mean, what about Ron's talk when prepping for the Yule Ball? In fact, I'd say I have to disagree with you on Ron, in particular, here. Ron puts people down a lot. "And my names's Malfoy. Draco Malfoy." Ron gave a slight cough, which might have been hiding a snigger. (PS/SS, US paperback, Ch.6, 108) "It's no wonder no one can stand her," he said to Harry as they pushed their way into the crowded corridor, "she's a nightmare, honestly." (PS/SS, US paperback, Ch.10, 172) "She just didn't want to go with Neville... I mean, who would?" (GoF, US hardcover, Ch.22, 399) So, I'd argue that Ron is often found insulting others. We wouldn't be told that his cough 'might have been hiding' a snigger unless it probably was. So, in that sense, Ron really starts it there. Draco's the one retaliating. And on Hermione, well, I agree that she came off as having mildly annoying behavior in the beginning of PS/SS. But still - she heard it, and she had really not done anything to Ron. And imagine saying that about Neville. What has Neville ever done to Ron to warrant that? IMHO, that's downright awful of Ron to say such a thing. The Admiring Skeptic wrote: Draco has minions, not equals, for "friends." HRH are quite equal. Draco tattles to teachers; HRH do not. Draco tries to get Hagrid sacked; HRH try to save the stone from Snape, but they don't report him to anyone in order to get him fired. (They wish it, but they take no action to accomplish it.) Draco and co. unfairly sabotage the Quidditch game in PoA; Harry helps Cedric improve his chances in GoF. Draco's prejudiced against Muggle-borns; HRH aren't. I reply: You make a lot of points here, so I'll kind of handle them one at a time. Just the Draco/HRH ones, though, since I do agree with your stand-alone points about Harry's morality (like re: Cedric.) On minions: We don't know that for sure. Just because Crabbe and Goyle are silent doesn't mean they're Draco's minions. Yes, they are portrayed that way, and I would agree that most of the indications we get from JKR would support that position, but let's face it, we don't know that. In CoS, when Harry and Ron polyjuice into Crabbe and Goyle, I mean, Draco does appear to expect them to converse with him - so it's not like all he does is demand adulation from them. They do have some kind of dialogue going on behind the scenes. On tattling: HRH do tell Hagrid, and several times at that, that they suspect Snape is going to steal the stone. And Hagrid tells them they're wrong repeatedly. Also, in Ch.9, Ron's about to tell on Draco when McGonagall catches Harry flying. The only reason he doesn't finish his sentence is because McGonagall doesn't let him. So, I'd say that again, HRH are not squeaky-clean on this point. On Hagrid: you know, I'd like to point out that Hagrid is not without fault here - he holds Slytherin house in deep disregard and maligns them at the drop of a hat, and let's face it, Hagrid *did* choose a dangerous creature that perhaps would have been better left until later on in the year. In fact, the Slytherins across the board after that class think that Hagrid should be sacked, and that's pre- Malfoy's broken-arm-act. Just because HRH like Hagrid doesn't mean that the rest of the school does. We do hear that the Gryffindors are his biggest supporters, and frankly, I think that that explains why we like Hagrid so much - since our main characters are Gryffindors. If our lead character was a Ravenclaw, I bet we'd have different perspectives on a lot of the teachers. On sabotage: Yes, Draco and co. try to sabotage the quidditch game. But let's face it, in CoS Harry and Ron DRUG Crabbe and Goyle so that they can polyjuice into them. They deceive Draco into not only revealing the location of the Slytherin common room (a grievous offense and total breach of the general sort of "school trust," IMO,) but also talking about secrets that they have no right to know. All this, because they've irrationally concluded on their own that Malfoy is not just mean, but is actually a murderer! Can you *imagine* what they're reaction would be if they found out Malfoy had been in the Gryffindor common room? No, I can't give you that one, here. HRH are WAY MORE out of line in this scene than DCG have ever been, IMHO. DCG are mean. HRH are out of control when they have their minds made up. They'll stop at nothing to do what they think is right, even if they're totally wrong. On prejudice: HRH may not be prejudiced against Muggle borns, but that's not because they're so virtuous. Both Harry and Hermione ARE half-bloods, and Ron's Dad loves muggles. So, are they accepting of themselves? Yes. By association, do they accept other Muggleborns? Yes. But what about the prejudices against the giants and the house-elves that Ron espouses? Hermione is a bastion of tolerance, and Harry seems to stay out on these subjects a lot, simply because he is rather ignorant about a lot of this stuff, so he's lucky: he hasn't been pre-tainted. But Ron, I mean, look at the way he refers to Lupin in PoA Ch.17 when the professor tries to help him. "Get away from me, werewolf!" (PoA, US paperback, Ch.17, 345) He can't just say 'get away from me?' He's just got to use the bigoted term, right? Nope - I can't give you Ron here. Ron is pretty prejudiced, truth be told. I don't concur with your Lupin/Snape comparisons, because I think that Harry deserves a lot of what he gets from Snape simply because he's so disrespectful towards him. Yes, Snape is a little over the top when dealing with Harry, but Harry is simply not pleasant, polite, or in any way respectful of Snape - even Dumbledore has to remind Harry of this from time to time. Harry, IMHO, earns Snape's scorn, frankly. As for Lupin, I *love* his character (and am therefore so dismayed by Pippin's convining Evil!Lupin argument,) and I also love his constant pleasant-ness and upbeat nature. But Lupin does tend to favor Harry a little bit, for instance, when he makes a cheer to a Gryffindor victory, then quickly adds that he shouldn't be taking sides, as a teacher. And Lupin does save Harry's butt when Snape catches him with the Marauder's Map. So, does Lupin cover for Harry, ala Snape favoring Draco? Yeah, I'd say that he does. I do agree with the majority of your other observations on the series' moral perspectives, particularly the ones about family and rule-breaking, which are right on the money, IMHO. -Tom From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 20:36:19 2003 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 20:36:19 -0000 Subject: Baby Harry with Sirius (WAS: Re: Dress Robes and a question...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53711 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sophie" < eschaafin at y...> wrote: > ... certainly Dumbledore knew that Sirius is Harry's godfather, why > didn't he say that Harry should go with him. Sirius hadn't yet been > accused of the muggle murders, so did Dubledore have other reasons > for not wanting Harry with Sirius? > > I guess Dumbledore reasoned that it would be simpler to hid Harry in > a muggle house, than with another wizard. > > Sorry if this is a rehash of an earlier topic. Remember that Dumbledore thought that Sirius was the secret keeper, and only the secret keeper could have betrayed the Potter's location. He didn't know about the 'bluff' by using Pettigrew instead. So, based on Dumbledore's knowledge, he would have assumed Sirius was in league with Voldemort. Not the type of guy you'd want to leave the kid with :) -Ing From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Mar 13 20:51:30 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 12:51:30 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Revisited: Pronunciation -Olympe Maxime In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16483203790.20030313125130@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53712 Hi, Thursday, March 13, 2003, 11:44:53 AM, Steve wrote: > Any opinions on Madam Maxime's name? I've always pronounced it Oh-luem-pe (short german u-umlaut in the middle, and a short e at the end, as in "web") Mack-seem (with the german "a" sound as in "margerine"). -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 21:00:19 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 13:00:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Revisited: Pronunciation -Olympe Maxime In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030313210019.53674.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53713 Steve wrote: Back to the pronunciation thread. How do YOU pronounce - Olympe Maxime? Olympe - oh-lim-pee oh-limp oh-lie-ump oh-lie-um-pee Maxime - macks-eem macks-im-ee macks-im-ay macks-eye-um macks-eye-um-ee (or macks-eye-me) For me it's always been - Oh-lim-pee Macks-eem I've always found French pronunciations to be a little odd. How 'bourgeoisie' (bore-geo-issy) ever became boo-zhwa-zee, I will never understand. But then, that's French. Any opinions on Madam Maxime's name? Me: Well, I love French (and I'm in the process of learning it), so I pronounce her whole name the French way, as she's French herself: Oh - Limp Max - EEM ('a' as in hall). Maria, who's getting a bunch of thoughts together for a post that's going to consist of lots of bits and pieces. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 19:45:58 2003 From: a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com (a_rude_mechanical) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 19:45:58 -0000 Subject: Magical Room and Bill Weasley Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53714 I know this has been discussed previously, but I would like to hear some thoughts on the room at Hogwarts that JK Rowling mentioned in an interview that has "magical properties." The room, as I understand it, is mentioned in GoF, but we don't yet know its importance. I'm curious about the room at the end of the Great Hall that the 4 competitors of the Triwizard Tournament enter...I was re-reading GoF, and Bill Weasley makes a comment on having been in the room 5 years previously. Could this be the room Rowling mentioned? And what do you think its importance might be? Does it have an importance at all? Surely Bill's comment will be followed up in a later book! And while we're on the subject of Bill Weasley, does anyone else think he might play a larger role in the books to come? When I re- read the fourth book, I just noticed how much he is mentioned and how much fun he is. Rowling connects him to Rita Skeeter, she goes on and on about his long hair, his presence in the infirmary at the end...am I going crazy, or does he stand out? I would love to hear your thoughts!!\ Elisabeth From grosich at nyc.rr.com Thu Mar 13 21:00:53 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina Rosich) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 13:00:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Halloween in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030313210053.94623.qmail@web13101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53715 Brittany wrote: Ok, I have time before class to type in a quick answer. If I remember correctly, Snape does what greatlit describes, and then later in the conversation smiles hugely when it looks as if he may be able to get Harry in trouble for something. Then he gets rather angry when it looks as if he can't. Doesn't he try to get him suspended from playing Quidditch or something? I can't remember every detail, but anyway, I think the slight smile earlier on would be because *Harry* and, of course, Ron and Hermione, were found by Ms. Norris and the writing on the wall. Also, even though Snape is apparently loyal to Dumbledore, I think he would still hold dislike for muggle-borns and squibs. I mean, he was a Death Eater once. So, he probably found the whole thing at least slightly amusing - it was Filch's cat that was petrified. I think he would have taken it far more seriously if it had been a student. But honestly, I do think Snape trustworthy, and I wouldn't nitpick this too much. I agree that Snape gets some pleasure out of seeing Harry in trouble. And I simply cannot understand why anyone would think Snape is happy that the Chamber was open. He was very concerned when Ginny was dragged down there. And he is totally trustworthy in my opinion. I am very curious, though, about his attitudes towards muggleborns and any cannon evidence. As for squibs, we do see him chatting in confidence with Filch in the teacher's lounge in PS/SS. I think those two might actually be a bit chummy, as frankly, they both enjoy getting/catching any of the children in trouble. And I also think he has a distaste for anyone he perceives as incompetent or above the law. But I don't recall Snape ever saying anything specifically about muggleborn students. He doesn't single them out, just shows favoritism to Slytherins. And since he is a *former* DE, I would question why and whether he'd still value "purebloods" while dropping the rest of their ideology and practices. Gina --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Mar 13 21:05:50 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 13:05:50 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Betrayal (was Rowling and Philosophy) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6884064234.20030313130550@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53716 Hi, Thursday, March 13, 2003, 12:16:09 PM, Tom wrote: > And on Hermione, well, I agree that she came off > as having mildly annoying behavior in the beginning of PS/SS. But > still - she heard it, and she had really not done anything to Ron. Like/dislike of certain characters seem to play into how we view their behavior quite a bit . I, for one, found Hermione extremely abrasive and annoying at the beginning, and wasn't surprised at Ron's and Harry's reaction to her at all. She had done plenty, imo, and Ron was spot on in his evaluation about why she didn't have any friends at the time. Not that Ron is a model of niceness, but he did not yell it in her face and felt bad when she overheard. Hermione, on the other hand, had no trouble at all saying less than complimentary things to other people and bragging ;) > Can you *imagine* what they're > reaction would be if they found out Malfoy had been in the Gryffindor > common room? No, I can't give you that one, here. HRH are WAY MORE > out of line in this scene than DCG have ever been, IMHO. DCG are > mean. Now, while I agree that the polyjuice incident was something that's always surprised me (especially looking at Hermione), I can't say that I see it as way more out of line than DCG's dementor trick. HRH didn't plan on getting anyone hurt, while what DCG did seemed definitely geared to not only change the result of the quidditch game, but also had the overwhelming possibility of getting Harry (and maybe other players) hurt in the process. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Thu Mar 13 19:42:47 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 14:42:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups]Question about Lupin (Was Dress Robes and a question about Sirius/Lupin) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030313131129.009598c0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <20030313194247.25529.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53717 GulPlum aka Richard: >And why hasn't Lupin tried to contact Harry once he's >reached Hogwarts? >Mainly, plot reasons. That, however, is an unacceptable >explanation. :-) >Psychologically, it's perfectly understandable that he >might not want to >get involved, both for his own good and Harry's. It's clear >that Harry >doesn't know much about his parents' past, and Lupin could >easily come to >the conclusion that Harry wants to distance himself from >that knowledge, >that talking or thinking about his parents is painful for >him (which it >is). Or, he could be under orders from Dumbledore (again, >mainly for plot >reasons) :-) not to discuss anything about Harry's and his >parents' past >unless he's asked a direct question. >Furthermore, Lupin is embarrassed about his lycanthtropic >status, and any >mention of James's past is inextricably linked with that, >so perhaps >thinking about those days is painful for *him*. Not to >mention that >everyone who knew James as a boy sees him in Harry, and I >suspect that for >all of James's friends, his name has immediate connotations >with his death >and the dark times. -- Further to Richard's ramblings (which I love to read BTW) - I'd like to throw in my own speculation on why Lupin has not contacted Harry. Guilt. What are the chances that Remus was actually in the middle of a transformation himself the night the Potters were killed? If October 31, 1981 was a full moon, then he would not have been of any use to anyone - least of all himself. That was probably before the days they'd discovered the wolfbane's potion that would make his transformations painless and less dangerous. If that is the case, Remus would have felt very guilty when he awoke the following day to discover what had happened to his best friends and know that he was not there to help them in their time of need. And also that he had absolutely no control over any of it - his transforming or what happened to James & Lily and baby Harry. Lea - who loves reading other people's ramblings! They do get you thinking, don't they? --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lynntownsend100 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 18:23:04 2003 From: lynntownsend100 at yahoo.com (Lynn) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 10:23:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Why I think Ron's going to be the victim(Was:Why do you think Hagrid's going to be the one to die) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030313182304.60517.qmail@web41401.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53718 Dear all, While I like Hagrid, I'm kind of relieved that the replies to my question made so much sense. The top candidate on MY short list(Hagrid hadn't even occured to me, frankly)was Ron for various reasons.(Dumbledore was second-partly because everyone in all the books had been saying he'd been getting on in years, and Hagrid had made a comment at the end of book 4 that he "didn't know what they'd do without him". When I noticed that comment during my most recent re-reading, I remember thinking,"Oh Hagrid, I *do* wish you hadn't said that".)While I don't remember all the reasons that it might be Ron off-hand,(And I DO *so* hope that I'm wrong about this.)I remember that Ron was mentioned in that short excerpt that was released fron that letter that went up for auction a few months ago. Also,he has a temper and might be tempted to do something rash-possibly fatal. (perhaps in persuit of glory for himself maybe) And while I'm probably jumping at shadows,I'm also worrying about the observation made by Harry about how different life was when Ron wasn't your best friend. For the record, Dumbledore was the only one on my "short list"(Of 4)who wasn't a Weasley. Gods, I have NEVER wanted to be proven *so* wrong in my life, but we'll all find out on the 21st,hey? Normally I'm a lurker, but I enjoy this group a lot and I love to hear other people's theories. For the record I'm 37, live In The Middle Of Nowhere,NY, and I just joined a few days ago. -Lynn Townsend -Lynn Townsend Abandon hope all ye who PRESS ENTER here --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dorigen at hotmail.com Thu Mar 13 21:17:27 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:17:27 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Revisited: Pronunciation -Olympe Maxime Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53719 >How do YOU pronounce - Olympe Maxime? > I assumed it was "oh-LIMP mahk-SEEM" because I thought it was French. I realize we don't really know where Beauxbatons is any more than we know where Durmstrang is, but what with the name of the school, the name of the teacher, the name of the school champion, the school champion's taste in food, the fact that we hear Beauxbatons students during the Quidditch Cup/Death Eater panic speaking French, and the accents, I think Beauxbatons is probably somewhere in France. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 21:22:21 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 13:22:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Betrayal (was Rowling and Philosophy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030313212221.19554.qmail@web40503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53720 Tom, you make a lot of good points, but I'm inclined to disagree with you on one of them: Tom wrote: On sabotage: Yes, Draco and co. try to sabotage the quidditch game. But let's face it, in CoS Harry and Ron DRUG Crabbe and Goyle so that they can polyjuice into them. They deceive Draco into not only revealing the location of the Slytherin common room (a grievous offense and total breach of the general sort of "school trust," IMO,) but also talking about secrets that they have no right to know. All this, because they've irrationally concluded on their own that Malfoy is not just mean, but is actually a murderer! Can you *imagine* what they're reaction would be if they found out Malfoy had been in the Gryffindor common room? No, I can't give you that one, here. HRH are WAY MORE out of line in this scene than DCG have ever been, IMHO. DCG are mean. HRH are out of control when they have their minds made up. They'll stop at nothing to do what they think is right, even if they're totally wrong. Me: No, no, no. HRH play secret agents because they want to find out if Malfoy is really the Heir of Slytherin, and they do it in a totally unacceptable way - I wholeheartedly agree with you on that. We have a classic example of good aims/bad means here. But DCG & Flint do not just try to sabotage the game - no, their masquerade is intended to make Harry fall off his broom - "A low and cowardly attempt to sabotage the Gryffindor Seeker". Um, what exactly happened the last time Harry fell becasue of Dementors? Some canon: "That was the scariest thing I've ever seen in my life." "You fell off," said Fred. "Must've been -- what -- fifty feet?" ""We thought you'd died," said Alicia, who was shaking." "Hermione made a small, squeaky noise. Her eyes were extremely bloodshot." DCG and Flint were trying to kill Harry - not just sabotage the team! That's bad means and bad aims. Sure, it was a stupid prank and they didn't think before acting - that is obvious , although even that is hard for me to believe, as they were with Flint a *17-year-old* at the time. So, Malfoy actually proves to be capable of killing a person, albeit not in cold blood. HRH did not plan to kill Malfoy - they didn't even tell the other Gryffindors the Slytherin password, and Ron, AFAWK, did not actually write to his father about the 'secret chamber' in Malfoy Manor. So, who's worse? I say DCG. Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Mar 13 21:23:42 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 13:23:42 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why I think Ron's going to be the victim(Was:Why do you think Hagrid's going to be the one to die) In-Reply-To: <20030313182304.60517.qmail@web41401.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030313182304.60517.qmail@web41401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10385136514.20030313132342@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53721 Hi, Thursday, March 13, 2003, 10:23:04 AM, Lynn wrote: > Also,he has a temper > and might be tempted to do something rash-possibly fatal. > (perhaps in persuit of glory for himself maybe) Yes, Ron has a temper, but he seems to have it very much under control when it comes to the big moments. He gets mad at Draco when his family is insulted, but I'm truly coming up blank when trying to find an example for him doing something rash in the pursuit of personal glory. While he likes to embellish his stories (at least the one time after the second task), I haven't seen him attempt to try anything rash for personal gains. He's done dangerous things to make it possible for Harry to finish his task, or to protect Harry, or his sister, but nothing to further his own causes. He's very courageous in those cases (protecting others), but he seems to consider himself a lost cause, thinking no matter what he does, someone in his family has already done it before and consequently it doesn't count. IMO, he's already done far more than most of them, but he doesn't seem to register this. > And while > I'm probably jumping at shadows,I'm also worrying about > the observation made by Harry about how different life > was when Ron wasn't your best friend. To me the books will lose a big part of their charm if Ron turns out to be the victim. A lot of the humor and friendship will be gone, and while I would still finish the series, I'd only do it to get closure, and would probably never again read the books for pleasure. The same goes if Hermione or Harry turn out to die in the course of the series. There's be just too big a chunk missing if any of those three are gone. Anybody else I could deal with, personally. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From dicentra at xmission.com Thu Mar 13 21:33:02 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:33:02 -0000 Subject: Betrayal (was Rowling and Philosophy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53722 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: > I reply: > Hmmm. Well, Riddle would have had to *earn* her trust, I agree with > that. And I also agree that Ginny probably *felt* deeply betrayed by > Tom Riddle. But, is that the same thing? I mean, if Riddle didn't > love and care for Ginny and then later change sides to her demise, > ala Pettigrew, then I'm not persuaded that it's an indictment for > Voldemort on betrayal. > Pippin wrote: > All that said, I see what you mean. But of course it's impossible > for Voldemort to betray anybody he really cares about, since > according to Dumbledore he doesn't really care about anyone, > even his own followers. I'm not sure that it matters how Riddle felt about Ginny. He knew how much she trusted him and he used that trust against her. It seems to me that it's just as vile to do that to strangers as to friends. The magnitude of the crime is measured not by the betrayer's connection to the betrayed, but by the betrayed's level of trust. Ginny's level of trust would have been the same if Riddle had genuinely cared about her; her wound is the same wound. If the story had been that he liked her at first but then changed his mind, is that going to hurt her differently than finding out he never liked her but pretended to? I don't know that it would. This means that in unequal relationships, the person with the strongest investment is also the most vulnerable (duh). For example, Harry can hurt Neville and the Creavey brothers far more than they can hurt him. If Harry betrays Colin, isn't that worse than Colin betraying Harry? (Assuming, of course, that Harry is fully aware of how much trust Colin has in him.) If Colin were to stop worshipping Harry and do something deliberate to harm him, that crime would be measured on the spite scale, not the betrayal scale. (Hey, that rhymes!) --Dicentra From hp at plum.cream.org Thu Mar 13 21:41:50 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:41:50 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Revisited: Pronunciation -Olympe Maxime In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.20030220015532.00983100@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030313211156.00963c90@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53723 At 19:44 13/03/03 , Steve wrote: >Back to the pronunciation thread. As the originator of the pronunciation thread (and fluent French speaker), I reserve the right to reply, despite a couple of answers already having arrived. :-) >How do YOU pronounce - Olympe Maxime? The *right* way, of course. :-P >For me it's always been - > >Oh-lim-pee Macks-eem Bear in mind that in French, unaccented terminal 'e's are always silent (although they do have an effect on the pronunciation of other letters); also bear in mind that in French two-syllable words, the accent usually falls on the last syllable... Thus: oLEHMP mack-SEEM >I've always found French pronunciations to be a little odd. How >'bourgeoisie' (bore-geo-issy) ever became boo-zhwa-zee, I will never >understand. But then, that's French. Although I know (at least, I *assume*) you're being facetious, I'll answer that one seriously for general enlightenment: As in English, a word's etymology and grammatical breakdown has a lot to do with the way it's pronounced and spelled, and understanding its constituent parts helps with both: "bourg" = "town" "-(e)ois" = adjectival suffix denoting appurtenance = (very rough) equivalent of English "-ish" "-ie" = suffix making an adjective into a noun. 'e' following a 'g' softens it; 'i' following an 's' hardens it. As a result, there is only one eminently logical way to pronounce the word: boor-zwa-zee. The 'r' is *not* silent, as in your transcription. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, resident language consultant. :-) From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 21:44:16 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:44:16 -0000 Subject: Dursleys' Fears (WAS: Redeeming the Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53724 Discussing why Sirius and James could not have played tricks on Vernon or Petunia, naamagatus wrote: > > First, there is a question of time. When did James and Sirius have > the *time* to play magical tricks on Vernon? Petunia is Lily's > younger sister, and Lily married early in life. Actually, we have no canon that says that Petunia is younger. In fact, I believe she is older or at least a fraturnal twin. If Lily married early and had Harry young, well Petunia must have married about the same time to produce Dudley, who is about the same age as Harry. If Petunia is older and was dating Vernon when Sirius and James were at Hogwarts and had occasion to meet Vernon, it would be quite in character for them to pull stunts on Vernon the same as the twins do on Dudley. Having said that, I do think it is unlikely that such a thing happened. The logistics to get Sirius and James into familiar contact with young Vernon are pretty stretched. So you can go ahead with your desire not to want Vernon to > > ... have a reasonable reason to hate > magic . I think it would dim a) the burlesque and b) the moral > point that JKR is making (I think) through the Dursleys about bigotry > and prejudice. > Returning to lurk mode Constance Vigilance From urbana at charter.net Thu Mar 13 22:04:10 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:04:10 -0000 Subject: Dress Robes/school uniforms, Little Whinging (Wing-ing? Winjing?) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030313131129.009598c0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53725 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, GulPlum wrote: > > If you're having trouble imagining boys wearing robes, take a look at this > page (it came up during that discussion): > http://home.freeuk.com/mkb/SUG/Blcoat.htm > although, strictly speaking, they're wearing "coats" rather than "robes", > but you get the picture. And this one shows what might be two main components of Dudley's Smeltings uniform: http://home.freeuk.com/mkb/SUG/boater/boater.htm I have to laugh every time I imagine Dudley's porcine skull being squeezed into a straw boater! not to mention the stick. Is this supposed to be like a cricket bat?? > >How does Sirius know exactly where to find Harry at the Dursley's on > >Privet Drive? > >He certainly would know their name, at the > very least. Remembering that they lived in a place called Little Whinging > is no big stretch. You don't need deliberate mnemonics to associate the > Dursleys with that place name! :-) > This must be a British "English" thing. How is the name of this town supposed to be pronounced, and does it mean something?? Being American (or perhaps being Midwestern) I've been pronouncing it Little Wing-ing (like the Jimi Hendrix song, Little Wing). Is that not correct? Is it supposed to be pronounced Little WINJ-ing? Or WHINE-ging? or WHINE-jing? In any case, what does that mean? Is it British slang for something? Anne U (sorry to sound so ... dumb...) From BEANNEBOY1 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Mar 13 21:34:07 2003 From: BEANNEBOY1 at HOTMAIL.COM (beanneboy) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:34:07 -0000 Subject: Betrayal (was Rowling and Philosophy) In-Reply-To: <6884064234.20030313130550@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53726 hello everyone, susanne said: > Now, while I agree that the polyjuice incident was something > that's always surprised me (especially looking at Hermione), > I can't say that I see it as way more out of line than DCG's > dementor trick. > > HRH didn't plan on getting anyone hurt, while what DCG did seemed > definitely geared to not only change the result of the quidditch game, > but also had the overwhelming possibility of getting Harry > (and maybe other players) hurt in the process. I agree totally with susanne, Hermiones convictions are noble, in that they are trying to establish the mysterious heir of slytherin. malfoys dementors trick was for one to go to any means to beat Gyffindor, secondly to get one over on Harry, third and perhaps somewhat disturbing hoping that Harry would be seriously hurt. If Hermione was put in a position where Malfoy life was in danger I would have to say that I think she would save his life, as would for that matter Harry. Now although Ron is not by any means nasty he would be far more likely to be the more reluctant of the three, especially if he was a direct threat to Harry or Hermione. This may at some point come to pass and will be interesting to see what happens. On the record I think Ron is a brilliant character, and think it very unlikely that he will die in book 5 as Ron and Hermione relationship id just begining, and the books will suffer too much from his loss becuase so much of the content is based around those 3 sorry for going on ... lee From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 22:29:11 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 14:29:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Quidditch as Metaphor/Krum In-Reply-To: <000401c2e964$eccf3880$723b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20030313222911.44979.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53727 Debbie: > 3. The final score was 170 to 160. > He gave up on his team when they > only needed to score only two more > goals in order to put victory within > reach. One goal would have put a tie > within reach. Krum's action sealed > the team's defeat. Yours truly: > Ah, here's where our readings diverge. > I don't see Krum as having given up > on his team at all, and he'd be > justified seeing that they were down > 160 points right before he caught > the Snitch. > > In order for Bulgaria to win in your > scenario, two things have to happen: > (1) Krum must catch the Snitch AFTER > (2) Bulgaria outpace Ireland by at least > two goals. And the previous action in > this game does not support this scenario: > Ireland is scoring [17] goals for every > goal that Bulgaria scored. Debbie: > I've seen many a sporting event in > which one team appears completely > outmatched in the early going, until > something happens which shakes them > up and gets their adrenaline going, > spurring on a stirring comeback. The > role of momentum and attitude in > sporting events can be just as important > as talent. Krum snatched an > opportunity from his team at a point in > time when they were not completely out > of the game, and whether he did it > in order to win glory or not, that was > the effect. He lacked faith in > his team, and clinched their loss. > Perhaps he did think his grab of > the snitch preserved a measure of > dignity for Bulgaria. Perhaps his > coach's treatment of him as the > unquestioned star without whom the > team would have gone nowhere led him > to believe that his catching the > snitch was the only thing that mattered. > It just so happened that it emphasized > his stardom and left his team in > the dust. I don't disagree with you on the EFFECT of Krum's actions. Not even one bit. Ultimately, what I'm clueless about is how you came to the conclusion about Krum's MOTIVES; I am most curious to know what it is that you are seeing that I am not? See, if Krum is not motivated by the desire to "emphasize his stardom," I find that he's less (if at all) culpable for leaving "his team in the dust." This goes back to your original post analyzing the role of the Seeker and a specific aspect of that role that calls for a hero-type functioning as a Seeker to be a team player. Just to be clear, I agree with you about the importance of that aspect of the Seeker. But I am still at a loss as far as understanding how Krum is an example of the self-centered publicity hound who contrasts with TeamPlayer!Harry. Draco in CoS demonstrates your point more clearly, me thinketh. I am curious to know what you think of the other passages in GoF related to Krum. Especially in those involving issues of fame, publicity and glory. See, he struck me as being anything but someone who's out for more fame and glory, which is, if I read your original post correctly, what you feel motivated Krum to fail to be a team player. Yours truly: > Then there's the fact that Lynch spots > the Snitch as Krum was taking a bludger > to his face. At this point no feint is > going to divert Lynch and no referee is > stopping the game. What could Krum > do but to go after the Snitch despite > having just been injured? Foul Lynch? > Can't really tell from text if it's > even possible for Krum to do so.... Debbie: > But Lynch takes himself out of the > chase. "[Krum] was drawing level with > Lynch now as the pair of them hurtled > toward the ground again . . . for > the second time, Lynch hit the ground > with tremendous force and was > immediately stampeded by a horde of > angry veela. . . . Krum, his red > robes shining with blood from his nose, > was rising gently into the air, > his fist held high, a glint of gold in > his hand." As I read this passage, the > snitch hovered very close to the > ground, and Lynch crashed trying to get > it (he may have already been suffering > from a concussion at this point and his > concentration might have been off). I > don't think Krum played dirty by fouling > Lynch. Instead, Krum had a clear choice > and he chose to take the snitch rather > than to let it go. The accuracy of this assessment depends on whether Lynch crashed before or after Krum got his fingers around the Snitch. The text does not make this clear. I'd be inclined to agree with you that Krum had clearly made a choice IF Lynch crashed BEFORE the Snitch was caught. We just don't know. Petra a n :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Mar 13 22:27:58 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 14:27:58 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Betrayal (was Rowling and Philosophy) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17388992613.20030313142758@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53728 Hi, Thursday, March 13, 2003, 1:34:07 PM, beanneboy wrote: > I agree totally with susanne, Hermiones convictions are noble, in > that they are trying to establish the mysterious heir of slytherin. Actually, I had the feeling there was a bit of ambition involved for Hermione in this incident, not just perfect nobility. She very badly wanted to make this potion, no matter what, and I *don't* believe it was just her noble wish to protect the muggle-borns. (And of course, JKR needed to let us know about the possibilities of the Ployjuice potion ) Drugging schoolmates is certainly not on my list of okay things to do to your classmates, but I still believe what Draco and friends did was much worse. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From hp at plum.cream.org Thu Mar 13 22:35:55 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:35:55 +0000 Subject: Little Whinging (Wing-ing? Winjing?) In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.20030313131129.009598c0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030313221723.00968640@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53729 At 22:04 13/03/03 , Anne wrote: >This must be a British "English" thing. How is the name of this town >supposed to be pronounced, and does it mean something?? Being >American (or perhaps being Midwestern) I've been pronouncing it >Little Wing-ing (like the Jimi Hendrix song, Little Wing). Is that >not correct? Is it supposed to be pronounced Little WINJ-ing? Or >WHINE-ging? or WHINE-jing? In any case, what does that mean? Is it >British slang for something? Following on rapidly from French pronunciation, to English. :-) Little WINJ-ing. Derived from "whinge", which, as you suggest, means whine (as in complain). Under normal rules, the 'e' would have stayed put, and it should be written 'whingeing', but being a place name, it would have undergone changes over the years. No other pronunciation really makes sense, as "winging" would be spelt that way (same rules of placename transformation apply). And on the issue of uniforms, Anne asked: >[...] not to mention the stick. Is this supposed to be like a cricket bat?? I've never seen it as such. I've always imagined it to be pretty much like it was in the TMTSNBN: about a foot long, with a metal "knob" on one end. From realbadger at earthlink.net Thu Mar 13 22:47:43 2003 From: realbadger at earthlink.net (Badger) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:47:43 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Harry's Failures (WAS Harry as Alexander the Great) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53730 << Message 53679 "Cindy C." << We know that Hermione seems to do rather poorly in DADA.... She doesn't know how to conjure a Patronus. >> Possibly this is because a Patronus is *very* **advanced** magick (and was taught to him "off the record," so to speak, by Lupin). The fact that Harry can do it at all at his age astounds and amazes the book's adult wizards. Even Hermione exclaims how advanced it is. realbadger, a loyal and true Hufflepuff (and a newbie here; learning The Ways to post properly) geoffreygould.notlong.com From AdairFletch at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 13 23:03:58 2003 From: AdairFletch at bellsouth.net (Brittany) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 23:03:58 -0000 Subject: Why I think Ron's going to be the victim(Was:Why do you think Hagrid's going to be the one to die) In-Reply-To: <10385136514.20030313132342@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53731 I agree with Susanne that I couldn't handle it either if Ron was the one to be killed, but there are also a couple of reasons why I think Rowling won't kill off Ron or Hermione, or in that case a Weasley, in book five (no idea about six or seven): 1) too integral to the plot (there would be some rather large plot holes to fill if she suddenly decided to kill, say, Arthur, as so many have speculated - I'm referring to the last chapter of Goblet of Fire) - Ron is Harry's best friend and I have a rather obvious feeling that he will be needed. 2) Rowling has spent too much time in developing Ron and future subpots (i.e. Ron and Hermione in book four) to just wipe him off the page now. 3) People are worried about Harry being able to emotionally handle a death such as Hagrid's, and I'm pretty sure he *wouldn't* be able to handle Ron's. Part of his world would fall apart. 4) My most valid reason, JKR said one of the trio would not die in OP in an interview (I forget which one, I'll look it up and try to post it). Brittany From artsylynda at aol.com Thu Mar 13 23:49:29 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 18:49:29 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rowling and Philosophy Message-ID: <1cd.50e8bf8.2ba27309@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53732 Asandhp: *large snip* > Is JKR aiming for a Kantian reunion of the > humanities and sciences (and religion, if future books make good on > that score)? religion? Could you elaborate on what you mean here? Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patricia at obscure.org Thu Mar 13 22:11:43 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 17:11:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Little Whinging (Wing-ing? Winjing?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53733 On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Anne wrote: > This must be a British "English" thing. How is the name of this town > supposed to be pronounced, and does it mean something?? Being > American (or perhaps being Midwestern) I've been pronouncing it > Little Wing-ing (like the Jimi Hendrix song, Little Wing). Is that > not correct? Is it supposed to be pronounced Little WINJ-ing? Or > WHINE-ging? or WHINE-jing? In any case, what does that mean? Is it > British slang for something? I'm American as well. I've been pronouncing it Little WINJ-ing. I don't know if it's particularly British, but I have often heard "to whinge" used as a synonym for "to bitch," "to whine," or "to complain." ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From AdairFletch at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 13 23:50:44 2003 From: AdairFletch at bellsouth.net (Brittany) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 23:50:44 -0000 Subject: Magical Room and Bill Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53734 Elisabeth wrote: > I know this has been discussed previously, but I would like to hear > some thoughts on the room at Hogwarts that JK Rowling mentioned in > an interview that has "magical properties." The room, as I > understand it, is mentioned in GoF, but we don't yet know its > importance. > > I'm curious about the room at the end of the Great Hall that the 4 > competitors of the Triwizard Tournament enter...I was re-reading > GoF, and Bill Weasley makes a comment on having been in the room 5 > years previously. Could this be the room Rowling mentioned? And > what do you think its importance might be? Does it have an > importance at all? Surely Bill's comment will be followed up > in a later book! Ok, my thoughts now. Actually, I have always thought that antechamber to be the room in which Rowling was talking about, but just for the record, Bill didn't say he hadn't been in that room for five years, he said he hadn't visited Hogwarts in five years. Anyway, back to the speculating, we know nothing about that room, and it is mentioned several times. Any reason Dumbledore chooses the champions to wait in that particular room, besides the fact that it's the closest off the Great Hall, no idea. But Vi, the Fat Lady's friend is in there, and several scenes occur in there. There is also an antechamber off the entrance hall that I wonder about (the room in which Harry waits as a first year with the other first years before they are brought into be sorted - where they first see the ghosts). That room has never been mentioned again. But I don't have any real proof except that both rooms, especially the one off the Great Hall, seem to hold some significance, well maybe not the one off the entrance hall all that much, but you get the picture. Bill just wasn't talking about the room in which he was in particularly, so I can't use that as evidence. Elisabeth wrote: > And while we're on the subject of Bill Weasley, does anyone else > think he might play a larger role in the books to come? When I re- > read the fourth book, I just noticed how much he is mentioned and > how much fun he is. Rowling connects him to Rita Skeeter, she goes > on and on about his long hair, his presence in the infirmary at the > end...am I going crazy, or does he stand out? Bill does seem important, he is mentioned more than Charlie, or even Percy, in book four, and he's the one that goes off to contact his father for Dumbledore at the end. As for the relationship with Fleur theory, I think it would be amusing to see Ron's reaction, but other than that I don't really care either way. I do honestly believe Bill will show up again, along with all the other Weasleys, however. Brittany, who rather thought Bill was a cool character From morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 00:09:37 2003 From: morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com (Morgan D.) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 16:09:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Revisited: Pronunciation -Olympe Maxime In-Reply-To: <1047588877.6128.15861.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030314000937.62492.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53735 > From: "Steve" > > Back to the pronunciation thread. > > How do YOU pronounce - Olympe Maxime? This is terribly hard to explain, because as fair as I know this sound doesn't exist in English. The "ym" sound is the sound of a nasal vowel, the same sound of French words "pain" or "sein", if you speak a bit of French. So it's something like "oh-lan-p" -- the "an" is, I think, like in the word "and" in English, but it's actually a single phoneme, a sort of nasal "ae". *shakes head* Yeah, I know it didn't make much sense. On the other hand, Maxime is pretty simple: "mack-seem". (If the above info is wrong, blame the Larousse dictionary, I'm just reporting what is says.) > I've always found French pronunciations to be a little odd. How > 'bourgeoisie' (bore-geo-issy) ever became boo-zhwa-zee, I will never > understand. But then, that's French. I'll refrain from commenting how odd English pronunciation is for me, with words like "rough", "though", "through" and "thought" having completely different pronunciations... ^__^ Morgan D. Hogwarts Letters - http://www.hogwartsletters.hpg.com.br __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 00:18:07 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 00:18:07 -0000 Subject: Little Whinging & the Knobbly Stick In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030313221723.00968640@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53736 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, GulPlum wrote: > At 22:04 13/03/03 , Anne wrote: > > >How is the name of this town supposed to be pronounced, and > >does it mean something?? Being American (or perhaps being > >Midwestern) I've been pronouncing it Little Wing-ing > > Following on rapidly from French pronunciation, to English. :-) > > Little WINJ-ing. Derived from "whinge", ...edited... > > bboy_mn: Out of curiousity, is "whinge" a contemporary word? Would I find it in the Oxford Dictionary? Doesn't matter; just curious. Of course, being from the midwest, I was looking forward to winging my way over the ocean to visit Little Whinging (winging). Little Win-Jing sound like it should be a small village just a few miles west of Beijing (Peking). - - - - - - > And on the issue of uniforms, Anne asked: > > >[...] not to mention the stick. Is this supposed to be like a cricket bat?? > > I've never seen it as such. I've always imagined it to be pretty > much like it was in the TMTSNBN: about a foot long, with a metal > "knob" on one end. bboy_mn: Can't remember what the movie stick looked like, but if it was actually a stick with a knob, it would be called a knobbed stick, not a knobbly stick which implies many knobs. I always assume that it was like a (somewhat) straight cane or walking stick, however, instead of being made from a straight clean piece of wood from the core of a tree, it was made from a branch, and of course that branch would have smaller branches coming off of it. The branch is stripped down, sanded and polished, then finished with a hard lacquer and possibly a small metal tip where it touches the ground to keep it end from wearing out. The main knob or handle would be the point where the branch attached to the main tree trunk, which would then be rough rounded and polished. The 'knobblies' would be where the minor branches attached to the main branch (walking stick). The 'branch' canes or walking sticks are usually a little crooked since your are stuck with the natural shape of the tree branch. This type of walking stick is actually very common. They are very smoothly finished but not so much in a refined way. The idea is for it to keep the natural character of the tree branch while still having a smooth highly polished finish. I guess you might call it a rustic look. I may not know my whinging from my winging, but I've seen a knobbly stick to two in my day. Knobbly Sticks and Where to Find Them- http://www.bjmarketers.com/canes.htm http://mypage.direct.ca/l/laninga/ The Legendary Irish Blackthorn http://www.walkingsticks.uk.com/blackthornsirish_stand.html Just a thought. bboy_mn From karenwickersham at ameritech.net Fri Mar 14 00:23:39 2003 From: karenwickersham at ameritech.net (karywick) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 00:23:39 -0000 Subject: Why I think Ron's going to be the victim (a little long) In-Reply-To: <20030313182304.60517.qmail@web41401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53737 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lynn wrote:> > SNIP Hagrid had made a comment > at the end of book 4 that he "didn't know what they'd do > without him". When I noticed that comment during my most > recent re-reading, I remember thinking,"Oh Hagrid, I *do* > wish you hadn't said that".)While I don't remember all the > reasons that it might be Ron off-hand,(And I DO *so* hope > that I'm wrong about this.)I remember that Ron was mentioned > in that short excerpt that was released fron that letter that > went up for auction a few months ago. Also,he has a temper > and might be tempted to do something rash-possibly fatal. > (perhaps in persuit of glory for himself maybe) And while > I'm probably jumping at shadows,I'm also worrying about > the observation made by Harry about how different life > was when Ron wasn't your best friend. Now Me: Lynn: I applaud you for finally having the guts to say what I've been thinking but being afraid to say forever. I know we're going to get beat up here by all the Ron lovers and H/R shippers but I really feel storng about Ron dying if not in this book then in a future one, Here's my reasons. #1 JKR has never said straight out in an interview that all the TRIO is going to live. She always replies evasively. Such as "and what makes you think that they will all survive?" and that worries me. #2. Ron has made statements and grumblings about being in the backseat to his famous friend. I can see Ron getting the chance to be the Hero and save Harry and Hermione and sacrificing himself in the process. 3# Of the trio Ron has been portrayed as the weakest both magically and scholarly. I imagine he's a few steps abouve Neville. In fact, I can't recall much postively said about his talents. That's got to be frustrating in a family with Bill, Charlie, Percy, and even Fred and George having some type of talent. I see Ron just wanting to stand out in some way rather than just as Harry's friend, this leads back to #2. #4 I also picked up on the quotes from Hagrid and Harry that Lynn. Those were strong hints for me. I don't think Harry would be prostrate from grief from losing his friend instead motivated more into action. #5. Since CoS I' ve felt that someone, namely L. Malfoy and LV have had it in for the Weasley's. Maybe because of the Muggle protection act, maybe because of something in the pasy we don't know about yet. It's just a feeling we have. #6. A lot of people (Sorry Suzanne :-))will argue that it would leave too big of a hole in the plot, but the truth is, the loss of Hagrid or Dumbledore or any other major character is going to leave a hole no matter when it happens. I just feel that Ron hasn't had as large as a role or as been as well developed as the other two of the trio. #7 When I read the interview about writng OotP . At least I understood that this quote was from this book. Sorry I can't get it to link. http://books.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4326559,00.html SHe said that there was a death that was extremely difficult to write in it. For some reason, I never though that would be of a minor character like one of the Creaveys - I interpreted to be one of the Trio, but not Harry. Therefore Ron- I guess it's just gut instint like anything else. On top of it I'll have to wait until June and a whole 12 hours later than any of you in England, since I'll be in Anchorage Alaska on June 21st BOO HOO! Anyways I need Ron to depart to fufill my crazy adapted (that I've also been too afraid to post) theory of Heriomione the heir of Ravenclaw, Harry the heir or Griffindor and Neville the heir of Hufflepuff,each helping to defeat evil LV and the DEs; Ron just has to be out of the picuture. But that's another post for another day ;-) Kary From hp at plum.cream.org Fri Mar 14 00:39:18 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 00:39:18 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Little Whinging & the Knobbly Stick In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.20030313221723.00968640@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030314002553.00972da0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53738 Steve replied to my previous musings with: >Out of curiousity, is "whinge" a contemporary word? Would I find it in >the Oxford Dictionary? Doesn't matter; just curious. Yes, and yes. Very much so. It cropped up several times in a group email correspondence I've been having with two of my sisters today (regarding buying a present for a third). :-) It's also in the American Heritage Dictionary (listed as "chiefly British"). See this entry from the US-based dictionary.com: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=whinge Something which came back to me when replying to an private email on this subject a moment ago is that we Brits are (apparently) referred to by Australians as "Whinging Poms". :-) (at least that's what Brits say Aussies call us, IYSWIM) >Can't remember what the movie stick looked like, but if it was >actually a stick with a knob, it would be called a knobbed stick, not >a knobbly stick which implies many knobs. Not *necessarily*, but I take your point. >The main knob or handle would be the point where the branch attached >to the main tree trunk, which would then be rough rounded and >polished. The 'knobblies' would be where the minor branches attached >to the main branch (walking stick). The 'branch' canes or walking >sticks are usually a little crooked since your are stuck with the >natural shape of the tree branch. On reflection, that sounds like a pretty fair description, although I still maintain that the stick has a metal knob on one end. :-) Quite (if not *extremely*) probably, my own imagination was coloured by the movie "If...." which has been my personal bible of what life must be like in British Public schools (not having attended one myself...), which featured a stick with a knob. :-) -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who finds it strange that If....'s impact on his imagining of the canon Smeltings Stick is stronger than TMTSNBN's. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 01:25:04 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 01:25:04 -0000 Subject: Little Whinging & the Knobbly Stick In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030314002553.00972da0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53739 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, GulPlum wrote: > Steve replied to my previous musings with: > bboy_mn originally said: > > > ... The 'knobblies' would be where the minor branches attached > >to the main branch (walking stick). ... > > GulPlum added: > > On reflection, that sounds like a pretty fair description, although > I still maintain that the stick has a metal knob on one end. :-) > > Quite (if not *extremely*) probably, my own imagination was > coloured by the movie ... which featured a stick with a knob. :-) > > -- > GulPlum AKA Richard, who finds it strange that If....'s impact on his > imagining of the canon Smeltings Stick is stronger than TMTSNBN's. bboy_mn responds: I've got no problem with a knobbly stick having an nice francy knob on the end. The point I was making is that the fancy knob on the end doesn't make it a 'knobbly' stick. It's the many knobs on the shaft that make it so. Not that it's of earth shaking importance. I just thought I would throw my spare change in. just a thought. bboy_mn From suzloua at hotmail.com Fri Mar 14 02:02:36 2003 From: suzloua at hotmail.com (Susan Atherton) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 02:02:36 -0000 Subject: Revisited: Pronunciation -Olympe Maxime Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53740 Thursday, March 13, 2003, 11:44:53 AM, Steve wrote: > Any opinions on Madam Maxime's name? I've always thought it was how it looks - OLL-IMP-EE MACK-SEEM. Just me? Susan ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "Help me Jebus!" --Homer Simpson "Shame on you! Ugly baby judges you!" --Ross Geller "Oh yeah, and did I mention I've got a baby?" --Stuart Alan Jones "You know, I telephoned my grandparents the other day, and my grandfather said to me, 'We saw your movie.' 'Which one?' I said, and he shouted, 'Betty, what was the name of that movie I didn't like?'" --Brad Pitt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From snowwy54 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 02:05:08 2003 From: snowwy54 at yahoo.com (snowwy54) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 02:05:08 -0000 Subject: Magical Room and Bill Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53741 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_rude_mechanical" wrote: > I know this has been discussed previously, but I would like to hear > some thoughts on the room at Hogwarts that JK Rowling mentioned in > an interview that has "magical properties." The room, as I > understand it, is mentioned in GoF, but we don't yet know its > importance. > me: I haave always felt that it would be that room off the great hall that the champions went in. IMHO I think the magical properties will involve Harry finding out more about his mother there. I don't know if he will go backin time, talk to a portrait that has Head Ggirl Lily Evans in it or what but I feel this is where he will find out more about Lily. I also think that we will see more of Bill JK just wrote about him like we would see more off him. Snowwy From ultimatesen at aol.com Thu Mar 13 21:53:05 2003 From: ultimatesen at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:53:05 -0000 Subject: Harry and Hermione being siblings In-Reply-To: <20030312222713.4302.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53742 siblings Griecy: Yes would you please tell the story behind it! I'm not done yet. I am still in book 2, trying to take my sweet time reading it so as not to miss, or forget, anything. Though I think I already have. me: I would wait to finish all the books before I got into the speculation aspect. *I* think thats part of the thrill of reading something for the first time. Not having a clue whats going to happen. I'm reading through the series for the 4th time. I didn't get into the speculation side of things until about halfway through the 2nd reading. You know the story line & what's going on. You can pick up on things then without worrying about missing any of the "good stuff". Sen From AdairFletch at bellsouth.net Fri Mar 14 01:18:20 2003 From: AdairFletch at bellsouth.net (Brittany) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 01:18:20 -0000 Subject: Magical Room and Bill Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53743 Okeydokey, to disprove my own theory, I went back and read the BBC online interview, and this is exactly what Rowling says: "Go straight into a certain room, mentioned in book four, which has certain magical properties Harry hasn't discovered yet!" So, it can't be the antechamber off the entrance hall, because that is only mentioned in book one. But I still think it probable that it is the antechamber off the Great Hall. Brittany, who does not give herself points for intelligence From hphgrwlca at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 01:47:01 2003 From: hphgrwlca at yahoo.com (Christine Acker) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 17:47:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: FF: Too much genetics? In-Reply-To: <1047588877.6128.15861.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030314014701.93186.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53744 How's this for a theory: It has been speculated (Cassandra Claire in the Draco Dormiens trilogy) that Harry is Heir of Gryffindor (we know that) and Hermione is Heir of Ravenclaw. Now, she also speculated that Godric and Rowena were together. So now me: following in this thread, if H&H are bro/sis, they are descended from both of them. So why wouldn't they both be heirs of both? Answer: Cassie also said Ginny was Heir of Hufflepuff. It wasn't her brothers b/c she was the only girl of the generation. So Hermione could be the Heir of Ravenclaw b/c she is the only girl in her generation. Hehe! Christine, who will e-mail Greicy with the story soon, but tonight has to work on application for UT's Liberal Arts Honors College __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com From AdairFletch at bellsouth.net Fri Mar 14 02:09:35 2003 From: AdairFletch at bellsouth.net (Brittany) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 02:09:35 -0000 Subject: Why I think Ron's going to be the victim (a little long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53745 Kary wrote: > Lynn: I applaud you for finally having the guts to say what I've > been thinking but being afraid to say forever. I know we're going to > get beat up here by all the Ron lovers and H/R shippers but I really > feel storng about Ron dying if not in this book then in a future > one, Here's my reasons. > #1 JKR has never said straight out in an interview that all the TRIO > is going to live. She always replies evasively. Such as "and what > makes you think that they will all survive?" and that worries me. My turn! Just to make this more objective, I'm not a huge Ron lover, though like most everyone, I am rather fond of him. I just want to throw in another opinion here. I honestly believe Ron won't get the axe in book five, though I wouldn't argue with a book six or seven theory. And I found what JKR said in an interview that I was referring to earlier, and I was wrong when I said that she said she wasn't killing off one of the trio (I couldn't remember exactly), but it still leads me to believe she won't kill of Ron in the next book. (If I find another quote about this, I'll be sure to post it.): "Q. People love Ron, for example. Kids think you're going to knock off Ron because he's the best friend. JKR's A. Kids do, because they're sharp and they've seen so many films where the hero's best friend gets it. So they think I'm going to make it personal by killing Ron. But maybe that's a double bluff... It's not that I sat down with a list and decided to write, "you're going, you're going, you're going." There are reasons for the deaths in each case, in terms of the story. So that's why I'm doing it." I just think there are too many plot elements left hanging if Ron dies in book five. Kary wrote: > #2. Ron has made statements and grumblings about being in the > backseat to his famous friend. I can see Ron getting the chance to > be the Hero and save Harry and Hermione and sacrificing himself in > the process. > 3# Of the trio Ron has been portrayed as the weakest both magically > and scholarly. I imagine he's a few steps abouve Neville. In fact, > I can't recall much postively said about his talents. That's got to > be frustrating in a family with Bill, Charlie, Percy, and even Fred > and George having some type of talent. I see Ron just wanting to > stand out in some way rather than just as Harry's friend, this leads > back to #2. Ok, this idea just depresses me! The way that Ron will finally stand out and get the credit we all know he deserves is by sacrificing himself, or maybe being the martyr? I hope not. I agree Ron needs to get something, but I don't think Harry could handle his death, and I think it will be something substantial that Ron gets, not the "fame after death" idea. I just couldn't see this happening. I'm not saying it won't, but if it does, I honestly think I'd chuck the book across the room. Kary wrote: > #4 I also picked up on the quotes from Hagrid and Harry that Lynn. > Those were strong hints for me. I don't think Harry would be > prostrate from grief from losing his friend instead motivated more > into action. My previous point. I, too, and waiting for something to make Harry snap, make him search out Lord Voldemort himself, but Ron's death, I still think would be too much this soon. As I said, maybe a later book, but Harry is sensitive, and I think this soon after the whole book four ordeal, Ron would just be too important. Kary wrote: > #5. Since CoS I' ve felt that someone, namely L. Malfoy and LV have > had it in for the Weasley's. Maybe because of the Muggle protection > act, maybe because of something in the pasy we don't know about yet. > It's just a feeling we have. > #6. A lot of people (Sorry Suzanne :-))will argue that it would > leave too big of a hole in the plot, but the truth is, the loss of > Hagrid or Dumbledore or any other major character is going to leave a > hole no matter when it happens. I just feel that Ron hasn't had as > large as a role or as been as well developed as the other two of the > trio. I agree that the Malfoys have had it in for the Weasleys, but Draco has had it in for Hagrid since book one (Norbert, then he gets sent to Azkaban in book two, then Buckbeak, and then the half-giant/Rita Skeeter mess). And I would argue that Ron is more developed than Hermione, we know far more about his family and upbringing, but I think both Ron and Hermione are too important to kill right now. Anyway, back to my point, Hagrid honestly wouldn't leave a huge plot hole, though I'm not necessarily saying he will die, but I can see where people get the idea. Maxime can carry on with the giants, and besides knowing Fridwulfa's whereabouts, Hagrid could die, and the plot would still be quite intact as far as I can see. His story has been told. Ron and Hermione haven't even had a story yet. Kary wrote: > #7 When I read the interview about writng OotP . At least I > understood that this quote was from this book. Sorry I can't get it > to link. http://books.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4326559,00.html > SHe said that there was a death that was extremely difficult to write > in it. For some reason, I never though that would be of a minor > character like one of the Creaveys - I interpreted to be one of the > Trio, but not Harry. Therefore Ron- I guess it's just gut instint > like anything else. I admit, it would just depress me to see Ron die. But Ron dying, and Harry later in some apocalyptic duel with Lord Voldemort, just seems so cliche to me. Rowling is definitely not cliche. They both may die for all I know, but right now I'm just expecting something else. Kary wrote: > Anyways I need Ron to depart to fufill my crazy adapted (that I've > also been too afraid to post) theory of Heriomione the heir of > Ravenclaw, Harry the heir or Griffindor and Neville the heir of > Hufflepuff,each helping to defeat evil LV and the DEs; Ron just has > to be out of the picuture. But that's another post for another day I've heard theories like this before, and I can't agree with them. Rowling always says its our choices who make us who we are, and having it be all the heirs that defeat Lord Voldemort would be supporting the blood heritage idea, not the we-are-who-we-choose-to- be idea. Though the Harry being Gryffindor's heir theory coming true would not surprise me, there's a lot of proof for that. But I think there will be more to Harry's defeating Lord Voldemort than just that fact that he may be Godric's heir. Otherwise, James should have been able to defeat him (I'm assuming Godric's blood is on James's side, because Lily was muggle-born). I just think, and want, there to be more to Harry than that his blood is meant to defeat Lord Voldemort. There is also the whole Harry-has-Lily's- eyes thing, which we know will be important. My hunch is that Harry will be something or be able to do something none of us expected, and maybe not in huge magical terms. One essay on possible ideas I've always liked is the one at the Harry Potter Lexicon, the Unifying Theory essay at www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/essay- unifying.html. I don't know if this is what will happen, but I like the theory behind it. Ok, I'm done now. Brittany, who's favorite character is obviously Harry himself From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Mar 14 02:36:49 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 02:36:49 -0000 Subject: Seeker Boy (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53746 Seeker Boy (PS/SS, Chap. 9 & 11) To the tune of Skater Boy - NOT! ? but rather to the tune of the Andrews Sisters classic The Boogie-Woogie Bugle Boy of Company B Hear a MIDI at: http://members.tripod.com/~Susie_TN/midi.html Dedicated to Gail (the boogie-woogie Beatle gal of Philly PA) THE SCENE: The Hogwarts Quidditch Field. The three female members of the GQT relate the events of Harry's Quidditch premiere. ANGELINA, KATIE & ALICIA He was the famous Boy Who Lived from out on Privet way He had not ever flown before in anyway But then our Hooch gave him a broom And then his dander was up and he was off with a zoom He is a-flyin' now, rescuin' Neville, he He's the soaring scoring Seeker boy on Gryffindor's team Minerva saw he'd talent that was awful good And dragged him swiftly off to meet with Ollie Wood The Keeper cried, "He's A-OK!" And they quickly acquired for him a Nimbus 2-K Now he accompanies us in our endeavors, he He's the soaring scoring Seeker boy on Gryffindor's team A-broom, a-broom, a-broom-diddelyada-broom He is the Boy with the scar opposin' Slytherin He'll fly through the sky til the Golden Snitch he is deliverin' And will he lose for us? ? oh, never, ever, he He's the soaring scoring Seeker boy on Gryffindor's team He was some rockin' sockin' Seeker boy on Gryffindor's team And as he flies the Weasley Beater twins'll go all out to ev'ry exxxxxx .treme The play-by-play is via Jordan's lead right straight through the match For the soaring scoring Seeker boy on Gryffindor's team (Harry's broom veers out of control. SNAPE saves him with a counter- charm) SNAPE A-broom, a-broom, a-broom-diddelyada-broom He is the Brat with the scar He will not escape if ol' Severus Snape isn't with him ha-ha-hand the Nimbus succumbs if it ain't level, see Save the haughty naughty Seeker boy on Gryffindor's team (QUIRRELL/VOLDEMORT's spell against Harry is broken when Hermione bumps against him/them). QUIRRELL & VOLDEMORT Lets put this boy to sleep with Mom & Dad tonight With a curse that elevates him to a risky height This boy was strictly headin' South But when that Snape intervened, the Snitch he caught with his mouth He now has won the match flouting the devil, he's That unjust disgusting Seeker boy on Gryffindor's team A-vad-ked-a-va-ra A-vad-ked-a-va-ra A-vad-ked-a-va-ra A-vad-ked-a-va-ra Ha-ha-hand the plans we began let's do more cleverly To get that overrated hated boy on Gryffindor's team (Exit QUIRREL/VOLDEMORT as the Gryffindor team celebrates their win) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From urbana at charter.net Fri Mar 14 02:48:40 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 02:48:40 -0000 Subject: Magical Room and Bill Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53747 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brittany" wrote: > Okeydokey, to disprove my own theory, I went back and read the BBC > online interview, and this is exactly what Rowling says: > "Go straight into a certain room, mentioned in book four, which has > certain magical properties Harry hasn't discovered yet!" > So, it can't be the antechamber off the entrance hall, because that > is only mentioned in book one. But I still think it probable that > it is the antechamber off the Great Hall. > > Brittany, who does not give herself points for intelligence I believe this has been mentioned once recently, but what about the prefects' bathroom? Harry did spend some time in there figuring out that egg. Perhaps something in there is even more magical than the Jacuzzi-esque bath? Anne U (who thinks all hot tubs are, de facto, magical :-) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 03:57:46 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 03:57:46 -0000 Subject: Magical Rooms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53748 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Anne" wrote: > > I believe this has been mentioned once recently, but what about the > prefects' bathroom? Harry did spend some time in there figuring out > that egg. Perhaps something in there is even more magical than the > Jacuzzi-esque bath? > > Anne U > (who thinks all hot tubs are, de facto, magical :-) bboy_mn: The candidates are (the envelope please) - 1.) The Great Hall Antechamber 2.) The Prefects Bathroom 3.) The Chamber Pot Room Are there any others? Any other rooms at all, even rooms that had passing mention; new rooms, old rooms, any other rooms at all? Moaning Myrtle's bathroom was mentioned in passing during the Perfect's bathroom scene. Others??? 1.) Why would the antichamber room be of any magical significants? Although, I did like someone's idea that Harry would find a picture of his mother in there and be able to talk to her. But I must add, as nice as that might be, it's even spookier than the Mirror of Erised. I could possibly have the only Floo networked fireplace in the castle, so it could act as an escape route in an emergency. But that would also give Death Eaters a possible entrance point. Of course, the Death Eaters already have several tunnels they can use as entrance points. Note on this last point: If we assume that Dumbledore now has the infamous MAP, then he knows about the tunnels that Filch doesn't know about. The secret Honeydukes tunnel is no longer secret. 2.) Again, why would the Prefect Bathroom have any magical properties, and what could they be? Certainly fun and games for the Prefects. Do both the boy and girl prefects us that same room? I could speculate things like the main door exits to the hallway, which we already know, but the door on the far side that looks like a closet could exit into the bathroom of the Leaky Cauldron. Again, nice escape route, but also an unsecure entrance point. And of course, very far fetched. 3.) We already know that the Chamber Pot Room IS a magical room, so it would not be unreasonable for it to have more magical properties we don't know about. It could be a secure hideout in case the castle was ever invaded. It could be a 'gives you what you need when you are desperate' room. Since it's already a magical room, the magical possiblities are huge. Sorry, I'm voting for the Chamber Pot Room. It's feels like something she would throw in that seems like a joke at the moment, but becomes significant later. On the other hand, since it is a very obvious room, it could just as easily be a misdirection. Well, it still gets my vote. Just a thought. bboy_mn From Meliss9900 at aol.com Fri Mar 14 04:17:00 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 23:17:00 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why I think Ron's going to be the victim (a little lo... Message-ID: <1cc.508a940.2ba2b1bc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53749 In a message dated 3/13/2003 6:24:35 PM Central Standard Time, karenwickersham at ameritech.net writes: > #4 I also picked up on the quotes from Hagrid and Harry that Lynn. > Those were strong hints for me. I don't think Harry would be > prostrate from grief from losing his friend instead motivated more > into action. > I totally agree. I think that Ron (or Hermione for that matter) being killed either to get to him. . weaken his support base. . or because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time will be the last push he needs to be able to actually have enough rage to kill LV. #7? When I read the interview about writng OotP . At least I understood that this quote was from this book.? Sorry I can't get it to link. http://books.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4326559,00.html? SHe said that there was a death that was extremely difficult to write in it. For some reason, I never though that would be of a minor character like one of the Creaveys - I interpreted to be one of the Trio, but not Harry.? Therefore Ron-? I guess it's just gut instint like anything else.>>> I just don't see the death of any Trio member until the later half of book 7. Hagrid, while it would be a horrible death and rob Harry of a supporter just wouldn't leave as big a whole in the overall plot (IMO) for reasons many others have already posted. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grace701 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 04:23:03 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 04:23:03 -0000 Subject: Dress Robes and a question about Sirius/Lupin In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030313131129.009598c0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53750 GulPlum wrote: >Well, in the books, the kids wear robes all the time. So unless >you're suffering movie contamination, you should be able to imagine >it. There was a very lengthy discussion in October about just how >true to the books the movie costumes were, just what JKR means >by "robes". >If you're having trouble imagining boys wearing robes, take a look >at this page (it came up during that discussion): >http://home.freeuk.com/mkb/SUG/Blcoat.htm >although, strictly speaking, they're wearing "coats" rather >than "robes", but you get the picture. I have seen the movie, so I can definitely picture them wearing robes. That's not a problem, but I wanted to know what *dress* robes look like. So are these dress robes for boys? What about the girls? I picture the girls wearing medieval gowns as their robes. You know like the way Liv Tyler and Cate Blanchett dress in LOTR. :D Greicy From flamingstarchows at att.net Fri Mar 14 04:40:09 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:40:09 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magical Rooms References: Message-ID: <008001c2e9e3$cc232ae0$7b15570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 53751 ----- Original Message ----- bboy_mn wrote: Sorry, I'm voting for the Chamber Pot Room. It's feels like something she would throw in that seems like a joke at the moment, but becomes significant later. On the other hand, since it is a very obvious room, it could just as easily be a misdirection. Well, it still gets my vote. ----Me---- It gets my vote as well...almost like its "hidden in plain sight" as a humorous passing comment. Dumbledore did say he had an "exceptionally full bladder" when he found it, so a room full of chamber pots would be just what he needed at that time. He also said he had never seen the room before. The question is, how will Harry find it and what will it hold when he does? ~Cathy~ From grace701 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 05:36:02 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 05:36:02 -0000 Subject: Lupin Betrays In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030313131129.009598c0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53752 I decided to combine the Dress Robes/Sirius/Lupin post and the Betrayal post to talk about Lupin. Pippin wrote in Rowling and Philosophy: >I think Harry will experience such a betrayal eventually, and of >course I see Lupin as the most likely candidate. I don't think that >this will undermine the position Rowling is presenting about >prejudice but rather permit her to test and amplify it. But that's >another post. Amy Z wrote: >He had those minutes of thinking he was betrayed by Lupin (no doubt >you would call it foreshadowing ). I (Greicy) asked in Dress Robes/Sirius/Lupin: >>And why hasn't Lupin tried to contact Harry once he's reached >>Hogwarts? Gulplum replied: >Mainly, plot reasons. That, however, is an unacceptable >explanation. :-) Psychologically, it's perfectly understandable >that he might not want to get involved, both for his own good and >Harry's. It's clear that Harry doesn't know much about his parents' >past, and Lupin could easily come to the conclusion that Harry wants >to distance himself from that knowledge, that talking or thinking >about his parents is painful for him (which it is). Or, he could be >under orders from Dumbledore (again, mainly for plot reasons) :-) >not to discuss anything about Harry's and his parents' past >unless he's asked a direct question. >Furthermore, Lupin is embarrassed about his lycanthtropic status, >and any mention of James's past is inextricably linked with that, so >perhaps thinking about those days is painful for *him*. Not to >mention that everyone who knew James as a boy sees him in Harry, and >I suspect that for all of James's friends, his name has immediate >connotations with his death and the dark times. >Overall, I don't have any problem buying Lupin's reluctance to talk >to Harry in PoA, although I do have a little difficulty in accepting >his silence throughout GoF. Sure, Harry has Sirius to contact if he >needs to, but Sirius is still formally an escaped convict. >Contacting his former teacher, whose reputation is still fairly >intact, would be far more sensible. >My main problem with PoA is Lupin's reluctance to tell Dumbledore >about Sirius's Animagus status. Lupin was presumably employed as >DADA teacher to keep an eye on Harry and to protect him, and to >assist in apprehending Sirius. Keeping silent about the fact that he >can transform is a pretty major oversight. He wouldn't have needed >to go into detail about how it came about; he could even have been >tentative about it and he needed to say was "I think that Sirius >might be able to turn into a huge black dog. Be on the lookout for >one". >Black had got into the school grounds, attacked the Fat Lady, and >even got as far as the boys' dorm. I don't buy Lupin's explanation >that Black had done it using Dark Magic. There seems to be a blase >attitude that Hogwarts is protected from ingression by any means - >Sirius's ability to get through *must* have been down to more than >the protections were geared up for, and an Animagus made perfect >sense... Because of the reasons that Gul pointed out, I can't believe that Lupin would ever betray Harry. I should hope that she doesn't undermine Lupin's morality and use his betrayal to justify that werewolves cannot be trusted. I, personally, wouldn't appreciate his morality being tested at all. He and Sirius have been through enough with the deaths of James and Lily, the feeling of betrayal (Lupin thinks Sirius killed James and Lily), then the actual realization/confirmation that they were betrayed (Sirius knows it's Pettigrew who did betray and helped murder James and Lily; Lupin didn't, but later finds out) and Sirius is thrown into Azkaban for 12 years without ever having a trial. I think, IMHO, they've been through enough. It's hard to have one of your bestfriends, whom you trusted, betray you, but to have two of your bestfriends betray you and then your son? C'mon, that's a bit too much for me. I don't think she'll go down that route for Lupin. She shouldn't do that to Sirius, Harry, Lily and James. All I see for Lupin, and Sirius, is to help defeat Voldemort and be on the lookout for Harry. Which I'm sure Lupin has been doing since Harry's been at the Dursleys. After all, he's part of the old crowd, so I suppose he's stopped by Mrs. Figg's once in a while to visit. ;) (Am I making sense or am I rambling like GulPlum?) If Harry is to be betrayed, I say it should be by one of his peers. Which, in reality, are only two people whom he is extremely close to: Hermione and Ron. Although, I want to say Ron, I highly doubt it and the only reason I have to back me up is at another post, The Rift (in general, nothing specific). If Ron felt betrayed, maybe he'll think it's time for some Karma, some "what goes around, comes around." I worry about what I think of him sometimes. But my mom and I think that history is going to repeat itself, so it has to be Hermione or Ron. I refuse to say Hermione, only because she's my favorite and for SHIPping reasons, but maybe she has a thirst to prove herself, as Harry, for reasons unknown and is tempted by Voldemort with an offer she can't refuse. (Oh I should bite my tongue, I can't believe I said that!) I'd like to think this happens, but she is only doing it to be an agent (to help out Harry and Dumbledore) without anyone's knowledge, but her own. Hermione is known to keep secrets, afterall. Hey maybe that's what Lily did?! Which reinforces my "Silly Little Girl" Theory that Hermione and Lily have the same personality type. Just to add: I've always wondered what the Sorting Hat told Ron and Hermione. Greicy, who hopes she hasn't rambled on and feels sorry for her feelings towards Ron. From a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 04:10:55 2003 From: a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com (a_rude_mechanical) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 04:10:55 -0000 Subject: Magical Rooms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53753 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > 1.) Why would the antichamber room be of any magical significants? > > I could possibly have the only Floo networked fireplace in the castle, > so it could act as an escape route in an emergency. But that would > also give Death Eaters a possible entrance point. Of course, the Death > Eaters already have several tunnels they can use as entrance points. > In GoF, doesn't Sirius visit Harry in Gryffindor common room fireplace? And doesn't Snape call Lupin into his office in PoA through the fireplace? Are these examples of floo networking? bboy_mn also wrote: >3.) We already know that the Chamber Pot Room IS a magical room, so >it would not be unreasonable for it to have more magical properties we >don't know about. It could be a secure hideout in case the castle was >ever invaded. It could be a 'gives you what you need when you are >desperate' room. Since it's already a magical room, the magical >possiblities are huge. Has Harry been inside this room? Rowling's hint seems to indicate that Harry is familiar with the room...I was operating under that assumption, anyhow! I would also like to nominate the kitchen as a possible candidate! With all the house elves stuff going on, it's a likely place! All this is very interesting! =) Elisabeth From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 04:54:09 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 04:54:09 -0000 Subject: I Love My Wand (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53754 Below is a filk from a better known composer than is my usual wont. This is a filk of "I Love a Piano" by Irving Berlin. This filk is dedicated to Ginger (gingersnape) who prefers older music. I reckon that 1915 ought to be old enough. I Love My Wand Scene: Harry waxes poetic over his new wand. I love my wand. Oh, I love my wand. Oh, I love to wave and cast a spell With my new wand. Oh, My brand new wand. Oh, I think the Charms it does are swell. At Ollivander I took a gander. Wands of all shapes and sizes: Yew; Holly; Mahogany. And you must adore What is in the core: Feathers of Phoenixes reborn; Heart-strings of Dragon Brought in by wagon; Hairs from the fabled unicorn. We beat Gregorovitch wands by a mile. They're much to thick and simply have no style! I love to wander Through Ollivander Here since three eighty-two B.C. Haggridd From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 05:01:30 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 05:01:30 -0000 Subject: Magical Rooms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53755 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > The candidates are (the envelope please) - > > 1.) The Great Hall Antechamber > > 2.) The Prefects Bathroom > > 3.) The Chamber Pot Room > > Are there any others? Any other rooms at all, even rooms that had > passing mention; new rooms, old rooms, any other rooms at all? > > Moaning Myrtle's bathroom was mentioned in passing during the > Perfect's bathroom scene. > > Others??? > > bboy_mn Wouldn't the Hogwarts kitchen qualify? It might have been mentioned before, although I can't recall an instance, but it was first visited in GoF-- and magic is definitely involved with this room! Haggridd From seasidesunset at hotmail.com Fri Mar 14 07:25:18 2003 From: seasidesunset at hotmail.com (inkflow83) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 07:25:18 -0000 Subject: Magical Room and Bill Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53756 And while we're on the subject of Bill Weasley, does anyone else > think he might play a larger role in the books to come? When I re- > read the fourth book, I just noticed how much he is mentioned and > how much fun he is. Rowling connects him to Rita Skeeter, she goes > on and on about his long hair, his presence in the infirmary at the > end...am I going crazy, or does he stand out? > > I would love to hear your thoughts!! > > Elisabeth ~*My thoughts on Bill W.*~ *Sighs Dreamily* Perhaps it is my very penchant for rebels or maybe it's the thought of someone in the Weasley family being so directly related to Dark Arts fighting... but Bill Weasley instantly hooked my attention the moment he entered the room... or more precisely when Harry entered the room. Bill is the eldest of 7 siblings. Obviously he's taken up the third authoritive position right next to his father and mother. This is pretty obvious by the way that even Percy, who is very opinionated, doesn't even flinch when Bill tells him to shut up also by the fact that he was, of all his brothers that went to fight, the most heavily injured during the Quidditch Cup raid. (It wouldn't have surprised me if he threw himself in front of Charlie *noticed that Charlie only had a rip in his shirt*) Perhaps his being the eldest and thus, needing to be the most responsible during the appearance (reign of 11 years) of the Dark Lord had made him quite prone to only caring about the important things (not really caring about what people think of his appearance) and making sure that everyone he loves is safe. All these factors might have influenced his very career choice as well. Being a curse breaker just might be the extreme tactical advantage to future HP plots... Of course the weight of his scarred youth might be even deeper depending on his age. *To which I have 2 theories on: Charlie is either 25 or 21 in book 4 and Bill is either 22 or 26+. If you want me to go into how I figured this out just let me know* ~*Takes on the subject*~ There is no doubt in my mind that both Bill and Charlie will step up to the plate and complete the Weasley fighting force. That family in it's own is a miniature army. Even Ron, who thinks nothing of himself, does realize the fact that his natural tactic skills (Being undefeated in Chess) can be very important. Mr. Weasely and Percy at the ministry, Bill and Charlie both with fighting forces, Should I even MENTION the twins? It's pretty obvious to me that their very innovative and creative talents would easily be turned into weapons!! Considering that most of their "playful" inventions are slightly dangerous in themselves, Ron's tactile resourcefulness, Mrs. Weasley being an important backbone to Mr. Weasley And Ginny Well... Ginny's personality still has some developing to go. With all that Bill, who leads the siblings in not only authorities context but being the one that will help the "good" wizards against the Dark Lord's biggest weapons: "The forbidden curses*, has the opportunity to stand out very soon (probably sooner then Charlie will) for those curses might be the first thing that they'll have to address. And I'm sure for Bill, this almost feel like something that he's been dealing with his whole life and will openly, and courageously step up to the challenge! **Love those rebels! ;)** ~**Denise**~ From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 08:09:26 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 08:09:26 -0000 Subject: Magical Rooms & Fire Talk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53757 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_rude_mechanical" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > > > > 1.) Why would the antichamber room be of any magical > > > significants? I could possibly have the only Floo networked > > > fireplace in the castle, > > > > > Elisabeth: > In GoF, doesn't Sirius visit Harry in Gryffindor common room > fireplace? And doesn't Snape call Lupin into his office in PoA > through the fireplace? Are these examples of floo networking? > bboy_mn responds: 'Firetalking' is not quite the same as travel by Floo network. It is very similar, but it's never been made clear if they are the same thing. And there is a difference between talk and travel; the ability to talk even if it is based on the same magic, doesn't necessarily mean that travel is also possible. Snape called (firetalk) Lupin via the fireplace, then Lupin appear in Snapes office (Floo but not necesarily Floo network), BUT that is travel withIN the castle. That's like the difference between an intercom and a telephone; one is a closed isolated network and the other is an open public network. I'm a little grey on a point here; without a doubt, as Hermione and others constantly remind us, you can't apparate into and out of Hogwarts castle & grounds, BUT it's not clear whether you can apparate WITHIN Hogwarts castle & grounds as in apparating from the tranfiguration classroom to the charms classroom. It is generally assumed that no apparation is possible, but we have seen Dobby apparate or perform an apparation-like feat, and we have seen fire-talk and fire-travel within Hogwarts. I've always assumed that the anti-apparation or anti-magical travel spells were like wall around Hogwarts. The spells stopped entrance and exits, but not necessarily travel within the castle, but I think I'm in a minority opinion in that. - - - - - - - > Elisabeth: > Has Harry been inside this room? Rowling's hint seems to indicate > that Harry is familiar with the room...I was operating under that > assumption, anyhow! > > I would also like to nominate the kitchen as a possible candidate! > With all the house elves stuff going on, it's a likely place! > > All this is very interesting! =) > Elisabeth bboy_mn: I'm not sure the room has to be one Harry has been inside. If I recall (something I do not do very well) JKR was asked where she would go or what she would do it she went to Hogwarts. She replied that she would go straight to a room mentioned in GoF that has magical properties that Harry hasn't discovered yet. I think it does have to be a room that Harry currently knows about, although that wasn't specifically stated. I assume someone will correct me if I am in error. KITCHENS!!!! Brilliant. 1.) Great Hall Antechamber 2.) Prefects Bathroom 3.) Magic Chamber Pot Room 4.) KITCHENS! 5.) this is weak, but Moaning Myrtle's bathroom is also mentioned in GoF. Myrtle's bathroom has already been done, so I'm not sure to what extent it's likely to be revisited. Any more rooms you can think of? ...anyone? Just a thought. bboy_mn From elfundeb at comcast.net Fri Mar 14 11:28:10 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 06:28:10 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quidditch as Metaphor/Krum References: <20030313222911.44979.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004301c2ea1c$cb9dde60$723b3244@aoldsl.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53758 I said, regarding Viktor at the QWC: > > Perhaps he did think his grab of > > the snitch preserved a measure of > > dignity for Bulgaria. Perhaps his > > coach's treatment of him as the > > unquestioned star without whom the > > team would have gone nowhere led him > > to believe that his catching the > > snitch was the only thing that mattered. > > It just so happened that it emphasized > > his stardom and left his team in > > the dust. > Petra Pan responded: > See, if Krum is not motivated by the > desire to "emphasize his stardom," > I find that he's less (if at all) culpable > for leaving "his team in the dust." > This goes back to your original post > analyzing the role of the Seeker and a > specific aspect of that role that calls > for a hero-type functioning as a Seeker > to be a team player. > Perhaps I should have said "showcase his talents" instead of his stardom, because that much more accurately describes what I really mean. > Just to be clear, I agree with you about > the importance of that aspect of the > Seeker. But I am still at a loss as far > as understanding how Krum is an example > of the self-centered publicity hound who > contrasts with TeamPlayer!Harry. Draco > in CoS demonstrates your point more > clearly, me thinketh. > I think our views are much closer than the bandwith we've used would suggest. I suspect most of our differences may relate to different definitions of the word *glory*. My dictionary defines glory as "praise, honor or distinction extended by common consent." That's not the same as being a publicity hound; it's simply obtaining recognition for one's own accomplishments. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that Krum doesn't care for publicity away from the Quidditch pitch at all (or else he'd have asked one of those lipstick-toting sixth years to the Yule Ball). The fact that he skulked around the back of the photo session before the first task indicates that he doesn't want recognition just for being famous, any more than Harry does. However, I believe he measures himself and measures success based on his own performance. He knows what he's good at and I believe he intended to showcase those skills at the QWC. If catching the snitch was the most important thing about playing in the QWC, then I believe he was seeking glory for himself. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, except that Quidditch is a *team* sport. And he put himself ahead of his team. My interpretation of Krum's capture of the snitch: As I read this passage, the > > snitch hovered very close to the > > ground, and Lynch crashed trying to get > > it (he may have already been suffering > > from a concussion at this point and his > > concentration might have been off). I > > don't think Krum played dirty by fouling > > Lynch. Instead, Krum had a clear choice > > and he chose to take the snitch rather > > than to let it go. Petra Pan: > > The accuracy of this assessment depends > on whether Lynch crashed before or > after Krum got his fingers around the > Snitch. The text does not make this > clear. I'd be inclined to agree with > you that Krum had clearly made a choice > IF Lynch crashed BEFORE the Snitch was > caught. We just don't know. > I don't think it really matters whether Krum caught the Snitch before or after Lynch crashed if Krum could have held Lynch off until the Snitch escaped. Harry's statement that Krum "wanted to end it on his own terms" because he "knew they were never going to catch up" suggests that Krum could have allowed the game to continue if he chose, but he didn't. He gave up on his team. That doesn't make Krum evil, but it sets him apart from Harry. And in the war against Voldemort, that difference between Harry & Co and Voldemort will be crucial. Debbie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hp at plum.cream.org Fri Mar 14 12:10:26 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 12:10:26 +0000 Subject: Dress Robes In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.20030313131129.009598c0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030314115241.0095ee80@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53759 At 04:23 14/03/03 , grace701 wrote: >I have seen the movie, so I can definitely picture them wearing robes. Oh-oh. I don't want to repeat the discussion we had in October, but I maintain that what they wore in the movies (and indeed what Harry wears in the book illustrations) weren't "robes", but "gowns". My idea of a "robe" is something which is closed at the front and hides what's underneath. As far as I'm concerned, the only male character in the movies whose costume is a "robe" is Dumbledore. Certainly putting lace frills on the arms of the something shaped like the gowns the students wore in the movies would look incredibly silly and out of place, even for a wizard. >That's not a problem, but I wanted to know what *dress* robes look >like. So are these dress robes for boys? My point exactly. If you can't imagine "dress robes" based on what the movies portray, the movie doesn't portray something that can rationally be called a "robe". In other words, I imagine "dress robes" to be along the lines of what Dumbledore wears rather than what the students wear. >What about the girls? I picture the girls wearing medieval gowns as their >robes. You know like the way Liv Tyler and Cate Blanchett dress in LOTR. :D Me too. Or indeed, something akin to what McGonagall wears in the HP movies. :-) -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who is now bowing out of this conversation, as he said all he has to say several months ago, summarised above. :-) From hp at plum.cream.org Fri Mar 14 13:40:24 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 13:40:24 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magical Rooms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030314125959.0095ab80@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53760 At 03:57 14/03/03 , Steve wrote: >1.) Why would the antichamber room be of any magical significants? Why not? :-) The same could be said of the apparently throw-away references to several other people and places throughout the books to date. Indeed, you yourself favour a room which has been an (apparently) ultimate throwaway line. You insist on seeing significance in something Dumbledore appears to have said for the sole purpose of reassurance (do you expect the London Underground map-shaped scar on Dumbledore's knee to develop a major importance? It was referred to in similar circumstances), so why not see significance in something which is far more likely to possess it? >2.) Why would the Prefect Bathroom have any magical properties, >and what could they be? Certainly fun and games for the Prefects. Do >both the boy and girl prefects us that same room? As to the last question, highly unlikely. The girls have their own toilets so it would make even more sense for them to have their own bathrooms. (This is where modern American English falls down because generally speaking, what we call "toilets", you call "bathrooms"). :-) Although Cedric refers to it as "the prefects' bathroom", he is a boy so that's the way he thinks about it. It is most probable that it is "the MALE prefects' bathroom". As to the first, again, "why not?" Myrtle hangs around there, so there might be *something* to it. It could have lots of several uses, most of which we'd need to be JKR to fathom. >3.) We already know that the Chamber Pot Room IS a magical room, so it >would not be unreasonable for it to have more magical properties we >don't know about. It could be a secure hideout in case the castle was >ever invaded. It could be a 'gives you what you need when you are >desperate' room. Since it's already a magical room, the magical >possiblities are huge. Ahhh. That's where we disagree. The exact quote was "... mentioned in book four which has certain magical properties Harry hasn't discovered yet." The impression I get from that is that it's not the room which hasn't discovered yet, but its properties. Harry has never seen the camber pot room, and indeed even Dumbledore says he's been unable to find it again. JKR is usually very deliberate in the kind of language she uses, and if she'd said "a room Harry heard about ...", or " a magical room", then I'd agree with you. But the way I read the comment, it's a mundane room which Harry has visited but whose properties he hasn't explored. I'm not insisting that I'm necessarily right, but I find any other explanation far more difficult to accept. In any event, the usual explanation for the room is that it shows "what we need" (as opposed to the Mirror's "what we desire"). The way he tells the story, Dumbledore *needed* the *bathroom* (his intended destination), not a "magnificent collection of chamber pots". If he found *one* chamber pot, then I'd buy the explanation. He managed to find his way out of the room and into the bathroom, so his need for a potty wasn't *that* great. Besides, if JKR's track record is anything to go by, an inherently magical room (which has, inter alia, the ability to disappear) is hardly one which will surprise us with its magical properties. A mundane room with undiscovered characteristics is far more likely. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who's never actually thought about this issue before, much less commented upon it, and thus awaits the above arguments to be comprehensibly ripped to shreds. :-) From hp at plum.cream.org Fri Mar 14 14:03:30 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 14:03:30 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magical Rooms In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030314125959.0095ab80@plum.cream.org> References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030314135730.0095f5c0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53761 At 13:40 14/03/03 , I wrote: >... and thus awaits the above arguments to be comprehensibly ripped to >shreds. Argghhhh!!!!!!!! "comprehensively", not "comprehensibly". What sort of linguistic pedant can I be, when I make basic errors like that? -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who would like to make an Oscar speech and apologise to his English teacher, the assembled HPFGUers and the English language itself for that incredible faux pas, and for the brevity of this post From htfulcher at comcast.net Fri Mar 14 14:12:02 2003 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 14:12:02 -0000 Subject: Why I think Ron's going to be the victim (a little long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53762 Of course, it doesn't appear that anyone has speculated that if Ron, or Hagrid, etc., get 'knocked off' they will return as ghosts. Recall that JKR promised something to the effect that we'll discover why some people become ghosts and others don't. What if Ron is killed (i.e., martyr sub-thread) and returns as a ghost? Harry would have his "weasy" forever then, eh? Incidentally, what do the ghosts think of He Who Must Not Be Named? Do they care? Are they at risk? What of Nearly-Headless Nick's being effected by the basilisk? Also, the speculation about incompleted work being a cause of ghostly existence seems not viable. If so surely Harry's parents would still be ethereally present. And Professor Binns? Just speculating.... MarEphraim From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 15:14:07 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 15:14:07 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Harry's Failures/Hermione's failures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53763 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Badger" wrote: > << Message 53679 > "Cindy C." > > << We know that Hermione seems to do rather poorly in DADA.... > She doesn't know how to conjure a Patronus. >> realbadger responded: > Possibly this is because a Patronus is *very* **advanced** magick > (and was taught to him "off the record," so to speak, by Lupin). The > fact that Harry can do it at all at his age astounds and amazes the > book's adult wizards. Even Hermione exclaims how advanced it is. Still- why is Patronus advanced and difficult magic? Because you must find hope and happiness when exposed to extreme distress, even depression(which is what Dementors do to you) - in order to cast it. Also that you must believe you can do it, when everyone tells you how very difficult it is... Time-turner realisation was a short-cut for Harry, but he still had the first "impossibility" done. But another Harmione's failure: She was only Gryffindor in her 3rd year NOT defeating a boggart - while Snape considers that to be *first* year's stuff (Maybe it is, seeing Quirrellmort and Lockhart being such incapable ones to teach them much anything). Find a way to laugh at your fear. That's what Hermione could not do... as ironical as it is, she failed because she's *afraid* to fail. The Troll: well-- why didn't *she* use the levitation spell to knock the troll over the head?? The basilisk: What convinced her to be safe looking the basilisk via mirror? Didn't all those petrified people *warn* her? Divination is yet another failure of hers... and how she takes that? When Ron and Harry try to tell her of a *real* prediction, she just won't hear it! Much like with House-elves, she's made up her mind and anything else is "wrong" - if house-elves, it's brainwash; if wizards, it's bigotry. Yet, she obviously does have a photographic memory, ability to use anything she read in a book, but... *You can't apparate into or from Hogwarts grounds* - Harry/Ron still consider some sort of "apparition" possible. The boys give in to Hermione, but there's nothing against apparating within Hogwarts grounds (apparate to the edge, walk a few steps and disapparate to where-ever you want, big deal that there's that anti-apparition-wall Hermione keeps reminding them of...). Has Harry failed? At least- with Accio in class (as well as Neville), earning extra home-work. Does this bother him? No. Does it bother him that he fell from his broomstick, lost the game/snitch AND his broomstick? No. His disability to find one to suit him? No - even when Hermione took the firebolt away to be checked! His first failings with the Patronus? No - though Harry was disappointed not to succeed, he kept on and overcame his failures in skill... Doesn't seem like Harry minds about how successful he himself is, he's not measuring himself with it... IMO, it's Hermione with trouble of failure/being wrong, never Harry - and Hermione's failure-trouble is clearly shown as her boggart... -- Finwitch From anakinbester at hotmail.com Fri Mar 14 15:37:36 2003 From: anakinbester at hotmail.com (anakinbester) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 15:37:36 -0000 Subject: Question about Lupin (Was Dress Robes and a question about Sirius/Lupin) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53764 GulPlum aka Richard: > >And why hasn't Lupin tried to contact Harry once he's reached Hogwarts? >Mainly, plot reasons. That, however, is an unacceptable explanation. :-) *L* True. Besides that one is reserved for, why didn't anyone ever mention Remus in conjunction with either James or Sirius. Then again, I'm sure someone did, just not within Harry's hearing. Anyway . . . >Psychologically, it's perfectly understandable that he might not want to >get involved, both for his own good and Harry's. >Furthermore, Lupin is embarrassed about his lycanthtropic > Lea Added: >Guilt. >What are the chances that Remus was actually in the middle of a transformation >himself the night the Potters were killed? Actually I think your answer works even if he wasn't a werewolf at the time. For whatever reason, he wasn't there. I also suspect, if he felt alienated from the group, because Sirius suspected him of spying he might have been staying away purposefully. He's not perfect and I could understand him being a bit bitter. That would only make him feel worse in the end. You know, he might not have been on good terms with James, who knows. I think Richard point also makes a lot of sense and ties in more with why Lupin's behavior always made sense to me. He is Harry's teacher, and that's really all. Yes, he knew Harry's dad, but he's not seen Harry in what 12 years? Harry certainly does not know who he is. I think Lupin simply tried to maintain the proper etiquette between a student and a teacher. To me that came across very clearly when at one point (don't have book so forgive the vague reference) he moved to touch Harry on the shoulder and the held back. He really doesn't have a connection with the boy at all, and as Lea said, what connections he does have are apt to be laced with painful memories that he might want to think about. He would also probably be faced with knowing that he could never truly get closer to Harry than he is now because he's a werewolf. It's not like he could try and become Harry's guardian or anything. I really put most of the emphasis on simply student teacher interaction though. I know when my own father taught at my school, we were expected to behave in a student teacher manner, even though he was my father. You know I had to call him Mr. Crenshaw and all while in school. I just figured it was that. Even if Lupin felt closer to Harry than any other student he can't single Harry out for special attention. Yes, I know the scene with the Grindlow and the dementor lessons, but I got the impression that Lupin would have done the same for anyone who asked. Anyway my thoughts as they are. Let my just add this onto the original subject of the thread. Men look good in robes gosh darn it! ^__^ -Ani From grace701 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 15:51:42 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 15:51:42 -0000 Subject: Magical Rooms In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030314125959.0095ab80@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53765 GulPlum wrote: >The exact quote was "... mentioned in book >four which has certain magical properties Harry hasn't discovered >yet." >The impression I get from that is that it's not the room which >hasn't discovered yet, but its properties. Harry has never seen the >camber pot room, and indeed even Dumbledore says he's been unable to find it again. JKR is usually very deliberate in the kind of >language she uses, and if she'd said "a room Harry heard >about ...", or " a magical room", then I'd agree with you. But the >way I read the comment, it's a mundane room which Harry has visited >but whose properties he hasn't explored. > > I'm not insisting that I'm necessarily right, but I find any other > explanation far more difficult to accept. Gul, I say you are right. I, too, read that quote that way. What we have to look at here is this part: "has certain magical properties Harry hasn't discovered *yet* (my emphasis). In order for it to be "yet" he has to have already been inside the room and discovered other minute magical properties. In this case, it would be all rooms because they seem to all have moving pictures, which in my book are magical properties and fireplaces where people can firetalk. So we're back at one, but since this is fun, I'll make a suggestion. If anything, I'd say it's the Gryffindor common room. Why? Well because I can just picture Harry, Ron and/or Hermione saying, "It was right in front of our faces all this time! Why didn't we notice it before?!" That's why. Lame, I know, but I say Gryffindor Common Room. Steve, please add it to the list. ;) Greicy From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Mar 14 16:22:42 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 16:22:42 -0000 Subject: Magical Rooms In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030314125959.0095ab80@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53766 Richard wrote: > The exact quote was "... mentioned in book > four which has certain magical properties Harry hasn't discovered yet." The question is, what is the status of the quote. We have no way of knowing whether it refers to a central mystery, or just what JKR would like to visit. IOW, was she dangling an important plot- related issue before the readers, or just taking the question literally? It's part of a reply to a question about what JKR would like to do, given an hour at Hogwarts. We have to remember that places *we* would like to visit because they contain concealed mysteries hold no mystery for JKR, so she would have no reason to visit them. Whereas, if one of the properties of the kitchen is to create your favourite food instantly, then that might be a throwaway comment in terms of the plot, but still be top of JKR's list. David From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Mar 14 16:28:18 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 08:28:18 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why I think Ron's going to be the victim (a little long) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54153822952.20030314082818@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53767 Hi, Friday, March 14, 2003, 6:12:02 AM, marephraim wrote: > What if Ron is killed (i.e., martyr sub-thread) and returns as a > ghost? Harry would have his "weasy" forever then, eh? And later Hermione also gets killed and joins Ron, and they both hang around until Harry has finished with Voldemort and is safe? Harry and his two ghostly advisors? Somehow I just don't think I'd be very happy reading this . I always thought Cedric might come back as a ghost... -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From grace701 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 16:39:38 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 16:39:38 -0000 Subject: Dress Robes In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030314115241.0095ee80@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53768 I (Greicy) wrote: >>I have seen the movie, so I can definitely picture them wearing >>robes. Gulplum wrote: >Oh-oh. I don't want to repeat the discussion we had in October, >but I maintain that what they wore in the movies (and indeed what >Harry wears in the book illustrations) weren't "robes", >but "gowns". My idea of a "robe" >is something which is closed at the front and hides what's >underneath. As far as I'm concerned, the only male character in the >movies whose costume is a "robe" is Dumbledore. >Certainly putting lace frills on the arms of the something shaped >like the gowns the students wore in the movies would look >incredibly silly and out of place, even for a wizard. I (Greicy) wrote: >>That's not a problem, but I wanted to know what *dress* robes look >>like. So are these dress robes for boys? Gulplum wrote: >My point exactly. If you can't imagine "dress robes" based on what >the movies portray, the movie doesn't portray something that can >rationally be called a "robe". In other words, I imagine "dress >robes" to be along the lines of what Dumbledore wears rather than >what the students wear. I (greicy) wrote: >>What about the girls? I picture the girls wearing medieval gowns >>as their robes. You know like the way Liv Tyler and Cate >>Blanchett dress in LOTR. :D Gulplum wrote: >Me too. Or indeed, something akin to what McGonagall wears in the HP movies. :-) Well I've tried to make it easier for me to imagine, since the movies do not help. I did a search on google and just couldn't find anything (I'm impatient today for some reason). So it looks like that link you sent me, Gul, is what I'm going to use from now on and I will also visualize Hermione wearing a nice long flowing dress as Liv Tyler and Cate Blanchett wear. As I'm sure, if we ever get a movie 4, that they'll differentiate the wardrobe anyhow. Greicy, who now claims this discussion closed before I get sent a howler about the movie comments From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Fri Mar 14 16:49:56 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 10:49:56 -0600 Subject: Why I think Ron's going to be the victim (a little long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53769 Melissa wrote: "I just don't see the death of any Trio member until the later half of book 7. Hagrid, while it would be a horrible death and rob Harry of a supporter just wouldn't leave as big a whole in the overall plot (IMO) for reasons many others have already posted." I write: All this argument and discussion on who'll die in book 5 reminds me of all the worries we had before book 4 came out; we heard that there was going to be a death that we would "care about," and we immediately came up with any number of people who could die: Gred or Forge, Hagrid, Dumbledore, all the usual suspects. Then, when the book came out, it turned out that none of these theories were correct. We cared about the character's death, but (at least for myself) cared about it because he had been fleshed out through that one book. (I'm not going to say the name, because some haven't read the book yet.) What I'm thinking is, maybe JK's going to do something similar in book 5. Just because the death is horrible to write doesn't mean she's going to kill off one of the beloved mainstays, does it? If somebody has an interview quote saying that she'll kill off a main character in book 5, please let me know so I can start saying prayers over Hagrid now. Hobbit-guy, who REALLY hopes none of his favorites are going to go up in smoke in OoTP "You haven't been getting into the Gaffer's home brew again, have you?" "No... Well, yes, but that's beside the point." -Frodo and Bilbo Baggins, Fellowship of the Rings Extended Edition DVD From kkearney at students.miami.edu Fri Mar 14 17:39:12 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:39:12 -0000 Subject: Magical Rooms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53770 David wrote: > The question is, what is the status of the quote. We have no way of > knowing whether it refers to a central mystery, or just what JKR > would like to visit. IOW, was she dangling an important plot- > related issue before the readers, or just taking the question > literally? > > It's part of a reply to a question about what JKR would like to do, > given an hour at Hogwarts. > > We have to remember that places *we* would like to visit because > they contain concealed mysteries hold no mystery for JKR, so she > would have no reason to visit them. Whereas, if one of the > properties of the kitchen is to create your favourite food > instantly, then that might be a throwaway comment in terms of the > plot, but still be top of JKR's list. I agree completely. This has always been my chief reason for disagreeing with the Chamber Pot room as a candidate. Although the "gives you what you need" theory is intriguing, it begs the question: Is there something that JKR feels she desperately needs? At all times? Her answer didn't seem limited to that very moment, whereas the Chamber Pot room would very in its usefulness depending on a person's needs. Also, it doesn't seem like the sort of room one would just hang out in, but rather a place one would go at a specific time of need. The idea of the Antechamber holding a potrait of Lily or some similar magic that allows Harry to discover more about his past has the same shortcomings: Why would JKR have any need to converse with her own characters? She is the omnipotent, all-knowing one in Potterverse, so I think something like this would be pretty boring for her. As the the room being the Gryffindor Common Room, the only problem is that JKR specifically says that the room is mentioned in GoF. I take this to mean that the room was not mentioned previous to this. Which leaves my vote with either the Prefects' Bathroom or the Kitchen. Decisions, decisions... -Corinth From snowwy54 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 18:33:57 2003 From: snowwy54 at yahoo.com (Susan Snow) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 10:33:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magical Rooms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030314183357.76606.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53771 --- corinthum wrote: > > > The idea of the Antechamber holding a potrait of > Lily or some similar > magic that allows Harry to discover more about his > past has the same > shortcomings: Why would JKR have any need to > converse with her own > characters? She is the omnipotent, all-knowing one > in Potterverse, so > I think something like this would be pretty boring > for her. > My idea of the antechamber that would allow you to visit with dead people would allow JKR to visit with her mother whom she has stated in interviews to missing very much. Just my thoughts and thankfully we will find out soon. Snowwy __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com From grace701 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 19:24:42 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 19:24:42 -0000 Subject: Is Hermione a mother-figure?/Does Snape despise Wormtail? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53772 My friend, whom I recently bought PoA as a birthday present, has made an analysis. She says that Hermione is like a mother to Harry and Ron. I told her I don't see that. She broke it down for me: "Yeah sometimes... she tells them that they are not to do this and not to do that... she helps out in a motherly way that's all. I am not saying that she is trying to be their mother, just trying to help them out to do good things and not get themselves in trouble." So what do you guys think? I really can't make a decision. She does seem motherly, but I can't help but think of Bossy!Hermione. Is it because she's an only child? Now about Snape. I remember that Snape doesn't like Sirius, James and Lupin since Hogwarts, but I don't recall him ever saying he didn't like Pettigrew. Are there any references to him saying that he didn't get along with Pettigrew? Or didn't like him? If he didn't, I'm started to suspect that maybe Pettigrew was part of the Death Eaters a little bit more than a year. James, Sirius, and Lupin knew someone was passing secrets for a year (did Lily know as well?), but was he passing secrets even longer than that. Greicy, who still hasn't received her PoA book from her neighbor :( From Sunnylove0 at aol.com Fri Mar 14 20:15:22 2003 From: Sunnylove0 at aol.com (Sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 15:15:22 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: muggle divination / Re: Mars Connection? Message-ID: <1ea.4388140.2ba3925a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53773 In a message dated 3/9/2003 8:23:18 PM Mountain Standard Time, julia at thequiltbug.com writes: > > > > Me: > > This doesn't seem to fit Harry very much. Except for the "excellent > athlete" > and "if injured, strike back quickly" parts. > > >I don't have the time right now to look > >up Harry's full chart, but I certainly can do this later if there is > >any interest. > > Actually, taking Harry's years with the abusive Dursleys, it would fit. Aries and Leo types especially become shy and introverted with when faced with emotional abuse (astrologer Linda Goodman used to refer to them as the "sheep" or "shy pussycat" types.) It also happens with other signs---Pisceans tend to get mean, Sagittarians become quiet and bookish. The Queen of Serpents [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 14 20:15:12 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 20:15:12 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Weird Systers References: <1047507003.4562.71032.m1@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <006101c2ea66$6b783900$bb4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 53774 Alicia wrote: >So my question is: what do other people think The Weird Sisters sound >like? At the risk of the mods going "koff, koff, ahem, ahem, one-liners, koff, koff", I have a mental picture of a sort of wizard goth-folk-rock version of Inkubus Sukkubus (splendid English Pagan Goth band...) Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 19:40:53 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 19:40:53 -0000 Subject: How're We Gonna Make Him Stay in the School? (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53775 This is a filk of that WW I-era song "How Ya Gonna Keep 'Em Down on the Farm" by Donaldson and Al Lewis. This filk is dedicated to Amy Z. (lupinesque), in fond hope that, finally, she will recognize the melody to one of my filks. How're We Gonna Make Him Stay in the School? Scene: (The Leaky Cauldron. Harry is trying to persuade Cornelius Fudge, the Minister of Magic, to sign his permission slip to visit the Wizarding village of Hogsmeade during his third year at Hogwarts school of Witchcraft and Wizardry. Fudge then confers in private with Arthur Weasley, who in turn tries in his own way to dissuade Harry. Later, Ron Weasley is amazed at how unreasonable the grown-ups are acting.) Harry: Mr. Minister, I've been thinking How you could let me go. There is a function you could perform, Just sign this little permission form. Mr. Minister, won't you help me, And your consent bestow? My aunt and uncle are just Muggles About such things, they don't know. Fudge: How're we gonna make him stay at the school, If he still wants to go? How're we gonna keep him away from Hogsmeade? The risk is severe; He could disappear. How're we gonna keep him away from Black? That's a mystery. Dementors walk the streets from dusk till dawn, Yet one false move and Harry could be gone. How're we gonna make him stay at the school After he's seen Hogsmeade? Arthur: Harry, Harry, please see reason. You must do nothing rash. Whatever rumors that you may hear, You must ignore-- do I make myself clear? Harry, Harry, please do listen. There'll always be next year. To blow up your Aunt Marge is trivial, Leaving school grounds is severe. Ron: How're they gonna make you stay at the school, That's what I want to know? How're they gonna keep you away from Zonko's, Jokin' around in old Hogsmeade town. How're you gonna stay out of Honeydukes, Sweet-Shoppe of renown? Three Broomsticks (not Hogshead) is one fine inn; The butterbeer they serve will do you in. How're they gonna make you stay at the school After you've seen Hogsmeade? (Later in the term, Fred & George Weasley pass on to Harry the Maurader's Map, which ultimately gives rise to divers and sundry alarums and excursions in the night.) Haggridd From lynntownsend100 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 17:02:38 2003 From: lynntownsend100 at yahoo.com (Lynn) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:02:38 -0000 Subject: Thank you!(Was:Why I think Ron's going to be the victim) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53776 > > 4) My most valid reason, JKR said one of the trio would not die in > OP in an interview (I forget which one, I'll look it up and try to > post it). > > Brittany Thank you very much for that! :) I had what I thought might be an "airtight" case for my guess, but I hadn't seen that interview. (Neither had anyone else in the non-online world who I'd spoken with prior to joining this club.)Frankly I agree with another posting that I'd seen on this topic(My apologies, but I don't know how to combine two or more postings in one reply so I'm trying to do this from memory.)in that my favorite Harry Potter books are my favorites exactly because you see so much of Ron and his family and the various interactions with them. I agree with another posting in that if Ron was the one a lot of the joy and laughter(Yes, each book has been getting darker in tone, but the interaction with Ron and his family balances that out somewhat, I think.)would be gone. No, I wouldn't stop reading them, but I'd only read the last two for closure. Would I keep re-reading the other books as avidly as I have been? Maybe once a year or so, not once a month or so the way I have been. Frankly, though since it's not Ron, and most people think it's probably not going to be another Weasly, I stick with the only non relation on the list,Dumbledore.(For reasons given in message # 53718)Do I hope I'm wrong? Yes. However,there's not a character I dislike enough to want to see written out-unless maybe Draco or Peeves. -Lynn T From kkearney at students.miami.edu Fri Mar 14 20:55:37 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 20:55:37 -0000 Subject: Does Snape despise Wormtail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53777 Greicy wrote: > Now about Snape. I remember that Snape doesn't like Sirius, James > and Lupin since Hogwarts, but I don't recall him ever saying he > didn't like Pettigrew. Are there any references to him saying that > he didn't get along with Pettigrew? Or didn't like him? If he > didn't, I'm started to suspect that maybe Pettigrew was part of the > Death Eaters a little bit more than a year. James, Sirius, and > Lupin knew someone was passing secrets for a year (did Lily know as > well?), but was he passing secrets even longer than that. I've always assumed that Snape never considered Pettigrew important enough to hate. Dislike, perhaps, but Pettigrew was the follower in the group. In this position, he was probably never the instigator of pranks/comments against Snape. Anything he may have done to Snape could be traced to either James, Sirius, or Lupin. Snape's hatred of those three stems directly from childhood, not from their role during Voldemort's reign. Regarding Pettigrew's tenure as spy, I have no idea. :) We really don't know who knew what when, or how they knew what they did know. But I don't feel Snape's seeming indifference to Pettigrew is related to either one's role in the Voldemort saga. -Corinth From grosich at nyc.rr.com Fri Mar 14 19:08:25 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina Rosich) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 11:08:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] British Muggle/Wizarding schooling (was re: OWLS) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030311015935.0095d670@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <20030314190825.19071.qmail@web13103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53778 GulPlum wrote: One VERY, VERY important thing to know, and this is of particular interest to HP fanfic writers (I see this all over the place which is why I'm making such a big deal about it, and why the next phrase will be emphasised, and even shouted) THERE IS NO CONCEPT OF "GRADUATING" SECONDARY SCHOOL IN BRITAIN! Thank you for this VERY thorough explanation! It really helped me a lot. One thing regarding the bit I quoted above. There is nothing in cannon about graduation at Hogwarts. But they do have a leaving feast every year. And I'm willing to bet the older students do something we readers are not privy to yet because Harry won't have been included. Maybe the school does something small. Or the students simply go off to Hogsmeade for something a little stronger than butterbeer to celebrate... And if there is no formal education after the NEWTs, then they must be used for job qualifications at least (e.g. Percy at the MoM). Otherwise, why would anyone care how many OWLs or NEWTs one got? I still believe (as others have speculated) that there must be some kind of post-NEWTs educational training, just not at University. Maybe professionals and experts (e.g. Pompfrey doing nursing or Snape being the potions Master) take on interns or apprentices. Gina :-) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grosich at nyc.rr.com Fri Mar 14 19:51:18 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina Rosich) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 11:51:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Hermione a mother-figure? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030314195118.47394.qmail@web13102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53779 grace701 wrote: My friend, whom I recently bought PoA as a birthday present, has made an analysis. She says that Hermione is like a mother to Harry and Ron. I told her I don't see that. She broke it down for me: "Yeah sometimes... she tells them that they are not to do this and not to do that... she helps out in a motherly way that's all. I am not saying that she is trying to be their mother, just trying to help them out to do good things and not get themselves in trouble." So what do you guys think? I really can't make a decision. She does seem motherly, but I can't help but think of Bossy!Hermione. Is it because she's an only child? Pardon the extreme use of Freud. But I've always seen HRH as kind of an "id" "ego" "superego" team. Ron is always pulling Harry away from responsibility (id). He's the friend Harry has fun with. Plays games. Goofs on homework. Ron even once said he especially likes it when Hermione has tons of homework while he and Harry get to goof off in front of her. On the other side is Hermione (superego). Voice of reason. Always looking to go to the library. To take things to task and not put them off. I think it's only "motherly" because she is a female. She is about responsibility. But Harry is the one in the middle. He can't do without either one of them. It affects him deeply when the trio are not in harmony. Too much Hermione and he spends all his time studying. Too much Ron and he'll NEVER study. And Harry, in addition to needing them, also brings them together. Hermione needs some fun in her life and Ron needs to be serious sometimes. Gina --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From heidit at netbox.com Fri Mar 14 21:00:00 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 16:00:00 -0500 Subject: Citations (was: Ron's going to be the victim) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003401c2ea6c$aea2fd40$9865fea9@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 53780 Brittany said: > 4) My most valid reason, JKR said one of the trio would not die in > OP in an interview (I forget which one, I'll look it up and try to > post it). > Can you please find a citation for this interview? I've never been able to find it using either Google or the Aberforth's Goat Search Engine, and would appreciate your citation to it. Heidi From spikespiegelfletch at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 21:01:21 2003 From: spikespiegelfletch at yahoo.com (Brittany) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 21:01:21 -0000 Subject: Is Hermione a mother-figure?/Does Snape despise Wormtail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53781 Greicy wrote: > My friend, whom I recently bought PoA as a birthday present, has > made an analysis. She says that Hermione is like a mother to Harry > and Ron. I told her I don't see that. She broke it down for me: > "Yeah sometimes... she tells them that they are not to do this and > not to do that... she helps out in a motherly way that's all. I am > not saying that she is trying to be their mother, just trying to > help them out to do good things and not get themselves in trouble." > > So what do you guys think? I really can't make a decision. She > does seem motherly, but I can't help but think of Bossy!Hermione. > Is it because she's an only child? I can see where someone would get that, considering Hermione does act as the voice of reason sometimes, and of course, Harry doesn't really have a maternal figure (Ms.Weasley is just becoming that way largely). But Ron doesn't need one, and he basically argues with anything Hermione says. So I think Hermione is just more mature in the fact that she thinks before she acts. Harry just does what he feels is necessary, whether or not it's reasonable. And Ron acts on emotion a lot of the time. But anyway, there are a lot of times when Hermione has no clue what's going on, or doesn't know what to do, and she panics or gets very anxious. Personally, I've never really thought of her as motherly, but yeah, maybe when she's older. Greicy wrote: > Now about Snape. I remember that Snape doesn't like Sirius, James > and Lupin since Hogwarts, but I don't recall him ever saying he > didn't like Pettigrew. Are there any references to him saying that > he didn't get along with Pettigrew? Or didn't like him? If he > didn't, I'm started to suspect that maybe Pettigrew was part of the > Death Eaters a little bit more than a year. James, Sirius, and > Lupin knew someone was passing secrets for a year (did Lily know as > well?), but was he passing secrets even longer than that. The thing I used to wonder about Snape, is that did he ever know about Peter? That would mean he knew Sirius was innocent. I've always assumed he didn't like Peter, but maybe it was like Malfoy towards Neville. Just disdain or something. Rowling has never really mentioned it though. But the more I think about it, I don't think Snape ever knew about Pettigrew (the Pensieve chapter in GoF, where Harry sees the Karkaroff trial, and Karkaroff explains that the Death Eaters never necessarily knew all the other Death Eaters, then Moody makes the comment along the lines of, "Which was a smart move wasn't it, as it prevented someone like you from naming them." (that's the jist of it anyway, I can't remember exactly, and I don't have the book with me)). So, Lord Voldemort might have kept the spy's identity from all the other Death Eaters, which would have been a smart move, and he might have realized that there was a spy in his midst as well (Snape being the spy, of course). But I do think it likely that Snape might have been the one to tip off James and Lily that Lord Voldemort was after them. That would make Dumbledore trust him. That's just speculation, though, and it's been discussed before. Anyway, there is that insult Wormtail makes to Snape on the Marauder's map in PoA, when Snape is trying to prove Harry was in Hogsmeade, after Malfoy saw Harry's head. So, from that, I assume all four of the group didn't like Snape, though I think James and Sirius would have been the ones Snape felt the most animosity towards. It's easy to compare it to Malfoy and his relationship with the trio. Malfoy insults Hermione and Neville, but never tries to seriously hurt them, just maybe hex them. Harry and Ron, I think he would consider seriously injuring (the Dementor stunt in PoA, during the Ravenclaw Quidditch match). But as I said, I don't thing Rowling ever specifically mentions it, in Snape's relation to Peter, just how he hated James, and still hates Sirius. The interesting thing for me, is that he seems to want Sirius dead, he mentions the Dementors may kiss Sirius, when it looks as if Snape has caught him in the Shrieking Shack. James, he hated, but if he did tip off James and Lily, it seems he didn't want James dead, and though he hates Harry, he has saved his life, and does look after him in the books, albeit in a very odd way. It just seems interesting that Snape's and James's hate for one another is always talked about, like Malfoy and Harry, yet he seems to hate Sirius more. Is this because he feels at all grateful towards James for saving his life? No idea, but I kind of doubt it. There are my thoughts, anyway. Brittany, who has always hated Snape, but grudgingly admits he is probably trustworthy From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 14 19:44:05 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 19:44:05 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dobby References: <1047440145.5130.4471.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001d01c2ea62$12c39f60$bb4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 53782 Steve wrote: >> Very nice. You suggest that we take Dobby at face >> value. He's the house elf equivalent of a misfit >> social visionary. O.K. >> This still bothers me, though, because this makes him >> such a behavioral mutant. ...edited... >> ~SeventhSqueal >What makes Dobby such a misfit social visionary; such a behavioral mutant? > >House-elves want to DO, Dobby wants to BE. > >Yes, I think we do take Dobby at face value, BUT just like Neville, I >think there is A WHOLE LOT MORE to the face of Dobby than we currently >see. > >House-elves are happy when there is work to be done and Masters to >serve. And Dobby too, is happy to be doing his work and to be serving >his masters, but it's not enough. More than wanting to be doing his >work, he wants to be; to be Dobby. As with all great men, mediocrity I tend to see house elves' minds as being hard wired a particular way: as you rightly say, to be working and serving. Just possibly, they also have some sort of collective "hive mind" which explains how Dobby and Winky are aware of each other and what's going on. It would also explain why they are so self effacing, don't step out of line, etc, and even why Winky was so devastated when she was cut off from her true nature as house elf to the Crouches. But Dobby is very different. Although he still tends to refer to himself in the third person, he has individuality and independence of thought. It's hardly surprising that he found refuge at Hogwarts, where misfits seem to find a place. I agree that we will see him again, and that he has much more to do before the end... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From spikespiegelfletch at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 21:59:24 2003 From: spikespiegelfletch at yahoo.com (Brittany) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 21:59:24 -0000 Subject: Why I think Ron's going to be the victim (a little long) In-Reply-To: <54153822952.20030314082818@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53783 Susanne wrote: > > What if Ron is killed (i.e., martyr sub-thread) and returns as a > > ghost? Harry would have his "weasy" forever then, eh? > > And later Hermione also gets killed and joins Ron, and they > both hang around until Harry has finished with Voldemort and > is safe? > > Harry and his two ghostly advisors? > > Somehow I just don't think I'd be very happy reading this > . > > I always thought Cedric might come back as a ghost... I though Cedric was happy when he died. Didn't his mother say something like that to Amos in their conversation with Harry after the third task? And I think it would be more painful for Harry to have Ron and Hermione's afterlives following him around, ugh! I don't think I'd be very happy reading that, either. Brittany, whose is becoming sad over all the depressing "Whose Gonna Keel Over Talk" P.S. If one of these characters die in books five through seven, I'm chucking the book across the room: 1) Harry! 2) Hermione 3) Ron 4) or for that matter, any Weasley, especially Ginny (yes, even Percy, too) 4) Hagrid 5) Sirius 6) Lupin 7) Dobby or the Creeveys (they're cute, even if that's a cliche girly thing to say) 8) Dumbledore, though he probably will die (argh!) From clio44a at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 22:02:45 2003 From: clio44a at yahoo.com (clio44a) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 22:02:45 -0000 Subject: Ridiculing the moon Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53784 A professional lurker, I have found something which I believe has not been discussed to death yet. A couple of days ago there was a short discussion about the scene in POA where Lupion teaches his boggart class. While I disagree with the idea of said thread (Snape=cockroach animagus) it made me think about that particular scene. And something struck me as odd. Why on earth does Professor Lupin's boggart (the moon) turn into a cockroach after the Riddikulus spell?? Here's the quote (POA,ch.7,THE BOGGART IN THE WARDROBE): 'The legless spider had vanished. For a second, everyone looked wildly around to see where it was. Then they saw a silvery-white orb hanging in the air in front of Lupin, who said, "Riddikulus!" almost lazily. Crack! "Forward, Neville, and finish him off!" said Lupin as the boggart landed on the floor as a cockroach.' What's funny about a cockroach? Lupin himself, when lecturing his students how to face the boggart, says it should be forced into something comical. Quote: '"The charm that repels a boggart is simple, yet it requires force of mind. You see, the thing that really finishes a boggart is laughter. What you need to do is force it to assume a shape that you find amusing.' and later '"I would like all of you to take a moment now to think of the thing that scares you most, and imagine how you might force it to look comical...."' When the students have their go at the boggart they all manage to press whatever is frightening them into a funny, slapstick-like situation. Neville: Snape-in Grandma's dress Parvati: bloodstained mummy-trips on bandage Seamus: banshee-looses voice Dean: severed hand-caught in mouse trap Ron: giant spider-rolling furball Now, Lupin's moon boggart gets turned into a cockroach. Odd, isn't it? I don't see the connection between a cockroach and the moon/Lupin's lycantrophy (sp?). From the student's attemps it seems to be required to picture the object of fear in a comic situation. How does turning the moon into a cockroach make fun of the moon? Any ideas? BTW, how *do* you ridicule the moon? Picturing the sunrise? a little 'Apollo' landing on it? Maybe it is only necessary to conjure a funny picture in your mind. But, ... a cockroach? Why would Lupin find a cockroach amusing? Maybe the orb Lupin's boggart became wasn't the moon after all? Unlikely, I know. Clio, proud to be a 'Euro-weasel' animagus From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 15:43:39 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 15:43:39 -0000 Subject: Betrayal (was Rowling and Philosophy) In-Reply-To: <20030313212221.19554.qmail@web40503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53785 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maria Kirilenko wrote: > > So, Malfoy actually proves to be capable of killing a person, albeit not in cold blood. HRH did not plan to kill Malfoy - they didn't even tell the other Gryffindors the Slytherin password, and Ron, AFAWK, did not actually write to his father about the 'secret chamber' in Malfoy Manor. > > So, who's worse? I say DCG. > > Maria Yes - DCG are worse. On Harry&Ron thinking that 'it was Malfoy' was not baseless, not with Dobby's evidence & the scene Harry happened to witness at Knockturn Alley. Also, since Malfoy summoned the Snake at Dual, it was possible that Malfoy also happened to be Parselmouth... At that point there was evidence on Malfoy, though circumstancial. The proof they found at Slytherin common room was clear that Draco Malfoy knew nothing - not guilty. In doing the Polyjuice act, they were acting *for* Malfoy by giving him the chance to show his innosence, in at least bothering to find the truth. Also, HRH *never* used the Slytherin password for anything else. They used the information solely on their purpose; determine whether Draco Malfoy was the Heir of Slytherin, if he knew anything of it... They found Malfoy knew nothing and let it go at that. ------- Malfoy goes out attempting to kill or at least injure Harry by the play-Dementors-act; Breaks rules to tease Neville - where Harry breaks rules to help Neville; And on McGonagall preventing Ron from telling Malfoy's act: I think she knew already, having seen Harry, maybe she saw all the rest, too - or concluded, as Malfoy *had* taken Neville's remembrall before? At any rate, the group was in flying course and Harry was showing amazing, natural talent... Oh and BTW, Madam Hooch saying that anyone who didn't stay put was out the course, Harry *was* out the course after that-- only he ended up in Gryff. team! Did Malfoy *also* get kicked out the course? -- Finwitch From spikespiegelfletch at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 22:09:29 2003 From: spikespiegelfletch at yahoo.com (Brittany) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 22:09:29 -0000 Subject: Thank you!(Was:Why I think Ron's going to be the victim) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53786 Lynn wrote: > Thank you very much for that! :) I had what I thought might be > an "airtight" case for my guess, but I hadn't seen that interview. > Frankly I agree with another > posting that I'd seen on this topic in that my favorite Harry >Potter > books are my favorites exactly because you see so much of Ron > and his family and the various interactions with them. I agree > with another posting in that if Ron was the one a lot of the > joy and laughter(Yes, each book has been getting darker in tone, > but the interaction with Ron and his family balances that out > somewhat, I think.)would be gone. No, I wouldn't stop reading > them, but I'd only read the last two for closure. > Frankly, > though since it's not Ron, and most people think it's probably > not going to be another Weasly, I stick with the only non relation > on the list,Dumbledore Yay, I have time to make another post (stupid homework)! Anyway, you are most welcome :) I will try to post that interview, I'll look for it, it'll annoy me until I can show you guys. I agree with you on the Dumbledore theory, as I've written earlier, I think he'll have to die to leave Harry completely on his own. I hope he dies in later books, though. I'm still putting my bet on Hagrid for book five, if I'm betting on anyone, but Rowling has stated that Hagrid is one of her favorite characters, so I don't know. It might very well be someone we don't really know yet, like Cedric's death in GoF. I'm with you on the fact that if Ron dies, I'm going to be rather upset, and I will seriously throw the book across the room. And besides Fred and George, I've always thought that Ron and Hermione's arguments were one of the funniest aspects of the books. And I don't think Ron's death would help Harry's rage either, as someone else posted, making him go looking for Lord V. I think it would break Harry, not make him stronger. Ron's death would be too much, and Hagrid's death has the potential to do that, too. Besides, Harry is my fave character, and I can't stand to see the kid hurt. So, there's my thoughts. :) Brittany, who likes all the characters walking around and breathing From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 22:15:36 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 22:15:36 -0000 Subject: Magical Rooms In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030314125959.0095ab80@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53787 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, GulPlum wrote: > At 03:57 14/03/03 , Steve wrote: > > GulPlum: > > >1.) Why would the antichamber room be of any magical significants? > > Why not? :-) > bboy_mn: Note that I did speculate on possible ways in which the room could have magical significants, but even those speculations seemed weak. We can fantasize anything, the room could be a portal into a cartoon universe, it could be a time travel machine, it could be the secret entrance to the Hidden Chamber of Gryffindor, etc.... But those all seem pretty unreasonable, my original suggestion was reasonable, it just had a few holes in it. The idea of a magical antichamber seems very weak to me since I suspect every room of any significant size has auxilialry rooms that could be called antechambers. I suspect their could be small antichambers off of the common rooms. Although I will admit they haven't been mentions, my sense is that this type of chamber/antechamber construction is very common in castles and large manor/mansions. It seems too common; too many antechambers all over the place for this one to have any significants. Although it IS a room specifically mentioned in book four, so it definitely belongs on the list. > >2.) Why would the Prefect Bathroom have any magical properties, > >and what could they be? Certainly fun and games for the Prefects. > >Do both the boy and girl prefects us that same room? > > Gulplum continues: > As to the last question, highly unlikely. The girls have their own > toilets so it would make even more sense for them to have their own > bathrooms. > (This is where modern American English falls down because generally > speaking, what we call "toilets", you call "bathrooms"). :-) > Although Cedric refers to it as "the prefects' bathroom", he is a > boy so that's the way he thinks about it. > bboy_mn responds: That's exactly why I asked the question. This is a room that seems to exist solely for bathing. Which is why I considered the possibility that is was a general unisex bathing room. I'm not saying it is, I'm say I wonder IF it is. You apparently think it is the boy's prefect bathing room. The opinion is appreciated. Back to the main point, the bathing room as with the antechambers seems too common. If I were going to give a room magical properties, from the perspective of a fictional wizard living in the Potterverse, why would I choose a bathing room? I can't think of any reason. Of course, I may just be a fictional wizard who lacks creative imagination. > > >3.) We already know that the Chamber Pot Room IS a magical room, > >so it would not be unreasonable for it to have more magical > >properties we don't know about. > Gulplum continues to continue: > > Ahhh. That's where we disagree. The exact quote was "... mentioned > in book four which has certain magical properties Harry hasn't > discovered yet." > > The impression I get from that is that it's not the room which > hasn't discovered yet, but its properties. Harry has never seen the > camber pot room, .... > bboy_mn still rambling: The exact quote is (although I don't have it in front of me); "... a ROOM mentionsed in book four which has certain magical properties Harry hasn't discovered yet." Our first search and ponder priority is 'a room mentioned in book four', our second search and ponder clue is that the room has "certain magical properties" which is what makes it interesting as a room desirable to visit, finally, the magical properties of this room haven't been discovered by Harry YET. Harry is aware of the Magical Chamber Pot room. It is a room mentioned in book four and it is a magical room with magical properties, and Harry hasn't discovered those magical properties YET. I could be wrong, but that sounds like a perfect fit to me. There is no indication that it is a room Harry doesn't know about, it is the magical properties he doesn't know about, and there is no indication that it has to be a room that he has actually visited. It could be Professor Sprout's office, he certainly knows about it, although he's never been there that we know of, and he could discover that it has magic properties that he doesn't know about. On the other hand, the room mentioned in book four actaully could be a room Harry doesn't know about. A good illustration (although a poor example) Snape (character selected randomly) could have mentioned a room to Fudge (character selected randomly). That would qualify as a room that was mentioned in book four that has magical properties Harry doesn't know about. That meets the qualifications, although I am assuming that it is a room that Harry is at least aware of. > GulPlum closes: > I'm not insisting that I'm necessarily right, but I find any other > explanation far more difficult to accept. > > ...edited... A mundane room with undiscovered characteristics is > far more likely. > > -- > GulPlum AKA Richard, bboy_mn: I think it could be a generally common room, but I wouldn't go so far as to say mundane room. Someone suggested the Gryffindor Common Room, I think that is perfectly valid. In fan fiction, the common room is riddled with secret passageways. JKR didn't actually say that it was a room mentioned exclusively in Book 4. But I think it has to at least stand out in book 4, it has to somehow catch our eye, otherwise it could literally be any room in the castle; the broom closet (Should I add that too the list? Rita interviewed Harry in a broom closet, that makes that mundane room stand out in the story). I also think that since JKR ended her sentence with a big 'YET', that this room will play a significant role in the future story, and equally implies that Harry will discover it's magical properties. So right or wrong, for now I'm sticking with the Chamber Pot Room. It's a small insignificant mention in the story, but it stands out because of it's oddity. Of course, that's just one man's opinion. bboy_mn From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 22:29:47 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 22:29:47 -0000 Subject: Ridiculing the moon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53788 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "clio44a" wrote: > Now, Lupin's moon boggart gets turned into a cockroach. Odd, isn't it? > I don't see the connection between a cockroach and the moon/Lupin's > lycantrophy (sp?). From the student's attemps it seems to be required > to picture the object of fear in a comic situation. How does turning > the moon into a cockroach make fun of the moon? > Any ideas? Well - I think that the boggart IS indeed the moon. However, MOON is not exactly what Lupin fears, just that he transforms every Full Moon. That's what he fears - transforming where he'd kill someone. I think Lupin finds it amusing to be able to turn Moon into something as revenge of all those full moon transformations he must go trough and well, maybe Lupin likes Cockroach Clusters? Still, the Boggart doesn't *have* that power. Maybe the transforming is just periodical with a period that happens to be exactly the time Moon takes on it's orbit but is in no way *powered* by Moon? Like menstruation circle, which also gave Hermione an advantage to notice Lupin's periodical illness... -- Finwitch From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 22:57:30 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 22:57:30 -0000 Subject: Death of a Loved One in Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53789 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Pessin" wrote: > I write: (Jonathan) > > All this argument and discussion on who'll die in book 5 reminds > me of all the worries we had before book 4 came out; we heard that > there was ... a death that we would "care about," ... people who > could die: Gred or Forge, Hagrid, Dumbledore, .... ... none of > these theories were correct. We cared about the character's death, > but ... cared about it because he had been fleshed out .... What > I'm thinking is, maybe JK's going to do something similar in book 5. bboy_mn: I've taken a similar position in the past. JKR, as you pointed out, called it a death we would 'care about', and she said she cried when she wrote that characters death. In the end, I like the character very much, I thought the character as a decent, noble, honorable person who deserved a great deal more than they recieved. What we need to watch out for, is a character who moves from the primary background into the foreground. By primary background, I mean 'in your face' obvious background characters like Neville and the Creevey brothers. Both of whom I love dearly and expect great things from. Here is a hypothetical example of how a character we like could be come a character we love which would make there death very sad. This also assumes that Harry's emotions will parallel our own. They need to start working on a Quidditch Reserve Team because in year 6 most of the team will be gone. This give us the perfect opportunity to bring several background characters to the foreground. There aren't that many people that they can choose from for reserve players, in fact, they will probably have to introduce new character in order to create a whole Quidditch team. So Colin Creevey (insert character of choice) starts training as the reserve Seeker (insert player position of choice). In the process, Harry gets to know Colin and discovers that once you get past the hero worship, Colin is a really nice guy; fun, easy to talk to, a hard worker at practice, a hard player on the pitch, and has substantial magical talent. So Harry and Colin develope a mentor/friend relationship. Harry focuses time on helping Colin with Quidditch which improves his personality and makes him an all-around better person. He's lovable, he's innocent, he has all the characteristics necessary to make us really love him, and to make him like Harry's little brother. All of which adds up to, one dead Colin Creevey. I can build emotional attachment to other characters the same way. Cho Chang and Harry initially are at odds with each other over the death of the character in the previous book (since the person I'm responding to didn't mention the character's name, I won't either). Eventually after some initial hostility, they discover that they are both mourning this persons death, and sufferring the lose very deeply. Cho realizes that Harry is suffering from guilt and blames himself. Cho realizes that Harry really isn't at fault and through a slow cautious process, Harry and Cho become very close. Cho becomes the one Harry leans on for more intimate (non-sexual, non-romantic) emotional support. This mutual need and emotional support gives them a very deep connection to each other, and in the process, we develope a deep emotional connection to Cho. Cho is the comforter of Harry's soul and we love her very deeply for that kind sensitivity. As a result, one dead Cho. Existing secondary character can easily be built up to the point where we have an emotional attachement to them, and their deaths become very difficult both to read and to write. Just a thought. bboy_mn From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sat Mar 15 02:56:58 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 02:56:58 -0000 Subject: Magical Rooms Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53790 Steve/bboy_mn wrote: 1.) Great Hall Antechamber 2.) Prefects Bathroom 3.) Magic Chamber Pot Room 4.) KITCHENS! 5.) this is weak, but Moaning Myrtle's bathroom is also mentioned in GoF. Myrtle's bathroom has already been done, so I'm not sure to what extent it's likely to be revisited. Me: 6.) Trophy room It is mentioned in Book 4, which seems to me to be the most important requirement: "Out in the dark corridor, Harry examined the Marauders Map to check that the coast was still clear. Yes, the dots belonging to Filch and his cat, Mrs. Norris, were safely in their office ... nothing else seemed to be moving apart from Peeves, though he was bouncing around the trophy room on the floor above." (Ch 25. The Egg and the Eye) Maria From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Mar 14 23:16:38 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 23:16:38 -0000 Subject: Magical Rooms Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53791 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, GulPlum wrote: > At 03:57 14/03/03 , Steve wrote: > Besides, if JKR's track record is anything to go by, an inherently > magical > room (which has, inter alia, the ability to disappear) is hardly > one which > will surprise us with its magical properties. A mundane room with > undiscovered characteristics is far more likely. A "mundane" room with magical properties Harry hasn't discovered. Any room in Hogwarts can have magical properties Harry hasn't discovered yet, and I think they all or most DO. 1) Owlery? Well, it does stand out in GoF - Harry's forbidden to go "even to Owlery" - and he runs into F&G on his way to post a letter to Sirius. He might explore it if he was given a detention-duty to clean it. 2) Dumbledore's office? Pensieve scene, Sorting Hat, Gryffindor's Sword... what else does Dumbledore have there? Will Dumbledore show Harry how he doesn't really need the map, because of something in the OFFICE... 3) The room used to prepare Harry for the maze? At least that's just a room mentioned - but who knows why it was empty... 4) Boy's dormitory in Gryffindor Tower? Something goes under Harry's bed and he goes to get it and finds something odd... (wand rolled underneath? Neville's toad was on loose again, Neville went under bed to catch it - and disappeared! - A secret corridor that was collapsed according to the twins, but the collapse was just an illusion...) 5) Myrtle's toilet/Chamber of Secrets? Maybe there's more to it than the basilisk? 6) Divination Classroom - Trelawney *never* leaves it mundane matters "cloud her vision", and yet she knows everything! Her "I'd never make that unlikely prediction" indicates that her usual predictions has to do with what is likely to happen - like that Neville will drop the tea-cup, but how did she *know* of Neville's clumsiness? How did she know to tell that Hermione's a book-worm with no Sight and leaving them before certain date? NOT from other teachers as she's a loner. All her predictions (apart from the fact that no one has died yet, but they're mortals so they *will*) have become true! Since she doesn't have true vision and she never leaves the tower, how does she know??? I think it's the *divination* room! 7) I don't think kitchen -- how'd Harry ever manage to explore it with all those elves asking if he'd like some tea? 8) the closet where Rita Skeeter Interviewed Harry. Why did Rita choose THAT place? Does it have something magical that helps writers? Divination Classroom or the pot-collection/I-give-you-your-need room... Though finding something under his bed would be nice... -- Finwitch From patricia at obscure.org Sat Mar 15 01:29:04 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 20:29:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] British Muggle/Wizarding schooling (was re: OWLS) In-Reply-To: <20030314190825.19071.qmail@web13103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53792 On Fri, 14 Mar 2003, Gina Rosich wrote: > I still believe (as others have speculated) that there must be some kind > of post-NEWTs educational training, just not at University. Maybe > professionals and experts (e.g. Pompfrey doing nursing or Snape being > the potions Master) take on interns or apprentices. Internships and apprenticeships are what I would expect to happen for more complicated specialties, like medicine. Certainly wizards and witches don't know *everything* there is to know after seven years at Hogwarts. It makes sense that the wizarding world would focus on hands-on education rather than book learning, since magic is such an active, results-oriented pursuit. What matters is that you can really do magical medicine, not write a long essay on it. BTW, this isn't so different from muggle education is some fields. The second half of medical school (in the US, at least) is done hands-on in hospital and out-patient settings, and new doctors generally follow that with several years of low-paid internships before hanging out a shingle on their own. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From BEANNEBOY1 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Mar 15 01:36:42 2003 From: BEANNEBOY1 at HOTMAIL.COM (beanneboy) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 01:36:42 -0000 Subject: who is gonna die? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53793 I know that this is not a new question it is one that I don't get bored of, its fun speculating because nobody will know in their heart of hearts until June. I have heard people saying Ron, and I have read what Susanne said about how it will take the fun out of the reading. I agree that to take one of the three (Ron, Harry and Hermione), would be a blunder. Hermione and Ron have yet to develop their relationship. With losing one of the three, you loose the mediator (i.e. Harry in the middle of Ron and Hermione, and Hermione in between Ron and Harry) Hagrid is a possibility, but he has an important part to play on a peace keeping mission with the giants (his mum). It could always happen after but who knows? Dumbledore has been my most likely but I have been doubting that recently, the hints left in GOF are there for all to see but is it perhaps a bit too obvious? (Your thoughts please) Am I right in saying that the character that dies has been in all of the previous books? because apparently I've read that her favourite character was Lupin, and JK said it was very hard for her to write the character out? That's all I have lame I know but somebody help me please. lee From spikespiegelfletch at yahoo.com Sat Mar 15 01:37:08 2003 From: spikespiegelfletch at yahoo.com (Brittany) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 01:37:08 -0000 Subject: Ron's not dying according to Rowling Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53794 Here's one of the quotes that I had read (I put stars around it), and I'm still looking for the others. "It's great to hear feedback from the kids. Mostly they are really worried about Ron. *As if I'm going to kill Harry's best friend.* What I find interesting is only once has anyone said to me, "Don't kill Hermione," and that was after a reading when I said no one's ever worried about her. Another kid said, "Yeah, well, she's bound to get through O.K." They see her as someone who is not vulnerable, but I see her as someone who does have quite a lot of vulnerability in her personality. Hermione is me, near enough. A caricature of me when I was younger. I wasn't that clever. But I was that annoying on occasion. Girls are very tolerant of her because she is not an uncommon female type--the little girl who feels plain and hugely compensates by working very hard and wanting to get everything just so." Yay, Ron's gonna live, apparently. If he does die, I shall be incredibly miffed. Brittany From patricia at obscure.org Sat Mar 15 01:52:01 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 20:52:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ridiculing the moon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53795 On Fri, 14 Mar 2003, clio44a wrote: > Maybe it is only necessary to conjure a funny picture in your mind. > But, ... a cockroach? > Why would Lupin find a cockroach amusing? > > Maybe the orb Lupin's boggart became wasn't the moon after all? > Unlikely, I know. The first time I read PoA, I thought the orb was a crystal ball. After all, Trelawney said Lupin nearly panicked when she offered to do a reading for him. Maybe it really is a crystal ball, and not the moon. After all, JKR frequently makes humorous references to Trelawney looking like a giant insect. If Lupin was imagining Trelawney's crystal ball turning into an actual insect, and a rather puny one at that, I can see why he would find that funny. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From cergordon at hotmail.com Sat Mar 15 01:52:25 2003 From: cergordon at hotmail.com (Cerys Gordon) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 01:52:25 +0000 Subject: Snape and the Death Eaters? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53796 I've been thinking about Snape and the Death Eaters as I've just finshed re-reading GoF. Lord V talks about the different DE who are missing and what happened to them and he mentions the one who betrayed him who will die. I'm thinking that has to be Snape, in which case what will his role be in fighting V now that he has returned? Malfoy Sr. always seemed to be friendly with Snape so did he not know of his betrayal? Most importantly what could have made Snape change sides right at the height of V's power? Of course that begs the question did he really change sides? I personally hope that by the end of the series Snape is redeemed as I just love him (especially in the movies). -Cerys _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Mar 15 00:07:19 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 00:07:19 -0000 Subject: Ron dying... /about Dobby Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53797 Well, 13-at-table prediction by Trelawney: "The first to rise is the first to die". Ron and Harry rise at nearly the same time and wonder which of them it is. Fore-shadowing where Ron sacrifices himself "It's chess. You must make sacrifices". Harry takes lead, makes the final move, enabled by Ron's sacrifice - and he hand Hermione can move on to the potion- puzzle and from there to the Mirror and Quirrelmort. Also, I think Ron will die to give Harry the way to defeat Voldemort. But um - 5th book is too early, I think. ---- Dobby is rarely independent, like Harry in resisting Imperious Curse. Sirius, Harry and Dobby all have had their "prisons". Harry sets Dobby free in the end CoS. Next, we hear Sirius Black escaping, having freed from a prison; Then, Harry leaves his prison as well. Harry goes back to his "prison", but with much improved conditions; now he has Sirius to back him up. Sirius too - but he's not totally free either, not before he's officially cleared. Dobby has improved conditions at Hogwarts - happy, free- but not yet shifted all the weight from Malfoys...; Odd connections, I think - did Dobby do something to help Sirius escape unnoticed? Did Dobby call up the Knight Bus? What *was* Dobby doing all 3rd book? I think Dobby is one key to help Sirius free and thus, Harry. All the time Dobby speaks highly of Harry Potter - much like Winky does of Crouch Sr... If Dobby looked to Mirror of Erised, Dobby would see himself as Harry Potter's house-elf, and his Boggart would be a dead Harry Potter. (That'd cause *some* diversion, wouldn't it?) -- Finwitch From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sat Mar 15 03:31:44 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 22:31:44 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and the Death Eaters? Message-ID: <1e3.4737d5a.2ba3f8a0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53798 In a message dated 3/14/2003 10:17:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, cergordon at hotmail.com writes: > I've been thinking about Snape and the Death Eaters as I've just finshed > re-reading GoF. Lord V talks about the different DE who are missing and > what happened to them and he mentions the one who betrayed him who will > die. > I'm thinking that has to be Snape, in which case what will his role be in > > fighting V now that he has returned? Malfoy Sr. always seemed to be > friendly with Snape so did he not know of his betrayal? Most importantly > what could have made Snape change sides right at the height of V's power? > Of course that begs the question did he really change sides? I personally > hope that by the end of the series Snape is redeemed as I just love him > (especially in the movies). Personally, I think Snape changed sides because he's a Slytherin. In the first book it says that a Slytherin would do anything to meet their ends. Anything COULD involve betraying the dark lord at the height of his power and joining the good side. What could those ends be? *shrugs* I also think Harry might save/protect Snape in some way. If/when Voldemort finds out about Snape's disloyality do you think he's just going to give him the ol' Avada Kedavra and be done with it? PUH! Not likely. I imagine he'd make an example out of Traitor!Snape. Even though there have been plently of times when Harry wanted to see Snape in extreme pain/under cruciatus/etc..I'm sure he wouldn't just sit by (if he's there) ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dorigen at hotmail.com Sat Mar 15 03:33:28 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 03:33:28 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] who is gonna die? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53799 After someone posted an interview in which JKR said "As if I would kill off Harry's best friend!" or something similar, I was relieved for Ron but feeling even more uneasy about Hagrid. Then I thought of something: Apparently the "A fan of Harry's will die" quotation has been debunked. But we are all assuming that because someone dies, and the author says it will be hard to write, it has to be someone we all like. What if it's someone we don't especially like, but *are* interested in and hoping to learn more about, and in the process we get to feel fond of him -- and then he heroically dies? Preferably in the process of saving either Harry or Dumbledore or both? In short, what if it's Snape that dies, after developing throughout OoP into someone we actually care about and will hate to see the end of? If it comes to that, what if he dies and then returns as a ghost to continue teaching Potions? Wouldn't that be ... special ... for Neville? Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Sat Mar 15 03:36:31 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 03:36:31 -0000 Subject: Ridiculing the moon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53800 Clio wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "clio44a" wrote: > While I disagree with the > idea of said thread (Snape=cockroach animagus) it made me think about > that particular scene. And something struck me as odd. > > Why on earth does Professor Lupin's boggart (the moon) turn into a > cockroach after the Riddikulus spell?? > What's funny about a cockroach? Lupin himself, when lecturing his > students how to face the boggart, says it should be forced into > something comical. > Maybe it is only necessary to conjure a funny picture in your mind. I think that the largest part of defeating the boggart is laughing in the face of fear. For the beginners, it may be too difficult to focus on an abstract and unrelated comic image, and so imagining the object of fear in a comical situation aids the process. (Similar to picturing the audience in their underwear when giving a speech - which, btw, doesn't work at all...) Clio: > But, ... a cockroach? > Why would Lupin find a cockroach amusing? While the Snape=cockroach discussion has been interesting (I generally would think his animagus form word be more "regal" and sly), I had not been leaning towards believing it... until, ironically, now; I imagine that seeing Snape turn himself into a cockroach would indeed be a comical sight, one that I know wouldn't leave my memory any time soon. (And might an Evil!Lupin enjoy giving his brighter students a hint as to Snape's rather embarassing secret?) - Nobody's Rib, who is terrified her animigi form would be a mouse From urbana at charter.net Sat Mar 15 03:41:53 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 03:41:53 -0000 Subject: Dobby (ST parallel?) In-Reply-To: <001d01c2ea62$12c39f60$bb4d6551@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53801 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: > > I tend to see house elves' minds as being hard wired a particular way: as > you rightly say, to be working and serving. > > Just possibly, they also have some sort of collective "hive mind" which > explains how Dobby and Winky are aware of each other and what's going on. It > would also explain why they are so self effacing, don't step out of line, > etc, and even why Winky was so devastated when she was cut off from her true > nature as house elf to the Crouches. So... perhaps house-elves are kind of like The Borg in Star Trek (TNG and later) -- except they're mostly nice and kind and helpful and benevolent and *not* bent on assimilating everyone and dominating the universe ... at least we hope they're not. I hope we don't find them on Voldy's side. Actually I expect at least some of them to rise up against their *DE* masters in one of the upcoming books. > > But Dobby is very different. Although he still tends to refer to himself in > the third person, he has individuality and independence of thought. Like "Hugh", the Borg (probably named something like Three of Six, Secondary Adjunct of Unimatrix Four) who got separated from the Borg- hive and ended up being examined in Beverly Crusher's medical lab. Hugh was (AFAIK) the first Borg to call himself *I*. It's > hardly surprising that [Dobby] found refuge at Hogwarts, where misfits seem to> find a place. > I agree that we will see him again, and that he has much more to do before > the end... As did Hugh in a later episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation... Anne U (when it comes to HP, resistance *is* futile :-) From grosich at nyc.rr.com Sat Mar 15 03:46:11 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina R Rosich) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 22:46:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and the Death Eaters? In-Reply-To: <1e3.4737d5a.2ba3f8a0@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53802 On 3/14/03 10:31 PM, "IAmLordCassandra at aol.com" had this to say: > > > Personally, I think Snape changed sides because he's a Slytherin. In the > first book it says that a Slytherin would do anything to meet their ends. > Anything COULD involve betraying the dark lord at the height of his power and > joining the good side. What could those ends be? *shrugs* > > I also think Harry might save/protect Snape in some way. If/when Voldemort > finds out about Snape's disloyality do you think he's just going to give him > the ol' Avada Kedavra and be done with it? PUH! Not likely. I imagine he'd > make an example out of Traitor!Snape. Even though there have been plently of > times when Harry wanted to see Snape in extreme pain/under cruciatus/etc..I'm > sure he wouldn't just sit by (if he's there) > > ~Cassie~ > > > I don?t think Snape switched sides for particular ends because he?s a Slytherin. I really think he saw the error of those ways. I think he has an inner moral compass which got ?activated? if you will at the height of Voldemort?s power because he was faced squarely with the damage and realised that is not for him. Just my opinion, mind you. Snape strikes me as a particularly principled man. I think he just came of age (early 20?s by the Lexicon timeline) and realised what he values was not what Voldemort had to offer. But I particularly like the idea of Harry helping Snape in some way. For one thing, it?s really bugged me for 4 books now how many times Snape has gone to bat for Harry and not once did he get a thank you or acknowledgment of any kind. Really. No wonder Snape gets increasingly irritated with the boy! :-) Furthermore, I think there is something interesting about 2 generations of Potters saving Snape?s life. He could wind up irrevocably intertwined in a passing of life debts. James saves Snape?s life. Snape repays him by saving (or trying to save) Harry?s life. Harry then saves Snape?s life, and so on. They?ll never be rid of each other! Oh, and I don?t see Rowling killing off Snape. She?s made some mentions in interviews of watching out for Snape, that there?s more interesting things in store for him, and alluded to things as far ahead as in book 7. No, my money is on Hagrid or some background character we get to know better. --- Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carrie525 at mybluelight.com Sat Mar 15 04:03:36 2003 From: carrie525 at mybluelight.com (Carrie S) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 20:03:36 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] who is gonna die? References: Message-ID: <00a001c2eaa7$dcbe6b20$20b05142@net> No: HPFGUIDX 53803 My thinking is Dobby, Winky, Lupin or Sirius. Characters that are liked, but in the background enough that losing them will not affect the plot as much as the heart. My pet theory is.... it is a character to be introduced in the 6th book. We meet them, like them and then and then they die. Sorta the way Cedric went. If JKR really liked the character too, it would still be hard to write. Didn't she say that Cedric's death was difficult also (before release?) Carrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sat Mar 15 04:22:16 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 23:22:16 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and the Death Eaters? Message-ID: <160.1d59eb49.2ba40478@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53804 Gina: > I don?t think Snape switched sides for particular ends because he?s a > Slytherin. I really think he saw the error of those ways. I think he has > an inner moral compass which got ?activated? if you will at the height of > Voldemort?s power because he was faced squarely with the damage and > realised > that is not for him. Just my opinion, mind you. Snape strikes me as a > particularly principled man. I think he just came of age (early 20?s by > the > Lexicon timeline) and realised what he values was not what Voldemort had to > offer. Ah. I didn't say those ends had to be bad in any form, did I? True, having good 'ends' isn't Slytherin nature. Snape may be redeemed, but I don't think he'll ever change nor or do I want him to. I just can't picture a happy, warm, Lupinish Snape. In fact, I'd be very scared if such a transition in personality took place 0.0. I think he could still be a good person and have the natures and make the choices that made the Sorting Hat place him in Slytherin. Of course, I still haven't ruled out the possibilities of Snape having some hidden agenda(s) ^^ ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sat Mar 15 04:33:05 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 23:33:05 EST Subject: Life Debts and Bonds Between Wizards. Message-ID: <159.1d20de1d.2ba40701@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53805 As always, sorry if this has already been discussed to death. I was listening to some music for the game "Kingdom Hearts" when a thought came to me. In the game one of the characters (Kairi, I think) says that if two people share a Papaou Fruit their destinies will become entertwined for all eternity (or something of like that). What if it's the same for wizards, only with life debts? I don't know if anything is said in the books about past lifes/reincarnation or anything. As I said, this just came to me. ^^; ~Cassie-who'll probably start thinking she should've thought this through more, but knows she probably would've lost her idea if she hadn't spoken up now. Dratted terrible memory~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Lynx412 at aol.com Sat Mar 15 07:17:46 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 02:17:46 EST Subject: Ghost Cedric Message-ID: <12c.25a551ed.2ba42d9a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53806 In a message dated 3/14/03 11:34:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, siskiou at earthlink.net writes: > I always thought Cedric might come back as a ghost... > This makes sense to me and I can even justify it. Yes Cedric died happy and should be safe...but, as we've all speculated, there are forces at work in the WW that don't quite buy Harry's story and who may actively work to punish Harry for his supposed part in Cedric's death. So, a WW trial/hearing/whatever is held to send Harry to Askaban/St. Mungos/wherever. And Cedric is drawn back from wherever to defend Harry, publicly appearing in front of all Harry's accusers. Shock, horror...especially when he says to Dad or Fudge, publicly "Why couldn't you let me rest?" Cheryl the Lynx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pretty_feet51 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 15 07:40:26 2003 From: pretty_feet51 at yahoo.com (Risti) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 07:40:26 -0000 Subject: How hard would it be...(was:Re: who is gonna die?) In-Reply-To: <00a001c2eaa7$dcbe6b20$20b05142@net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53807 A thought has been coming to my mind lately, looking in on all of the speculations on the 'hard to write' death. Now, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but so far, all we know is that this death will be 'hard to write' and that it will be a 'fan of Harry's'. Now, myself personally as a writer(the limited experience I have), while it may be emotionally difficult, I wouldn't have too much trouble coming up with an angsty way for my favorite character to die. You'd basically be writing their eulogy, and usually can make their death noble/tragic(or both), and generally a scene you cry through, but just raises the character to sainthood. What would come a little harder, however, is realistically killing off a character I didn't really like in a way that still emotionally impacted the reader and the story, without it being very triumphant in the fact that the guy/girl you can't stand is finally gone. Maybe this will become clearer if I give examples. Imagine writing Peter's death in a way that ultimately made the reader feel sympathetic towards him(if this is what JKR desires). Or Snape, a character who JKR has stated dislike towards, dying in a noble way for the cause against Voldemort. Then there's my favorite example. The Dursley's. We, the reader, can't stand them. I can't imagine JKR having a particular penchant for them. So what if Voldemort and his gang of Death Eaters decided it was time to have fun with some muggles. Instantly, the most hated become the innocent victims. Fred and George just wouldn't feel the same making fun of Dudley after that, would they. Don't forget, despite all that they are, they still are Harry's only living relatives. It'd never happen, you say? Well, Voldemort knows he can't touch Harry when he's with his relatives... So let's get rid of the relatives. Back in that fateful Oprah interview that kid did say that JKR told him something about the wizarding world mixing with the muggle world because of Voldemort. You want to talk about character's out living their plot purposes? It's pretty obvious that with Voldemort back in town, he won't wait all patient like for Harry to have a miserable summer off from adventure. There's only so many fat jokes you can pull off before the whole thing just gets old. ~Risti From spikespiegelfletch at yahoo.com Sat Mar 15 04:03:31 2003 From: spikespiegelfletch at yahoo.com (Brittany) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 04:03:31 -0000 Subject: who is gonna die? In-Reply-To: <00a001c2eaa7$dcbe6b20$20b05142@net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53808 Carrie wrote: > My thinking is Dobby, Winky, Lupin or Sirius. Just want to make a clear, clarifying post. Lupin can't die, because Rowling has stated that he will appear in later books, and will be an integral part of book seven. Dobby, Winky, and Sirius are up for grabs, though (I don't want Dobby or Sirius to die!). Night All. Brittany From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Mar 15 11:01:03 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 11:01:03 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ridiculing the moon References: Message-ID: <3E7307EF.000003.28035@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 53810 Patricia Bullington-McGuirewrote - The first time I read PoA, I thought the orb was a crystal ball. After all, Trelawney said Lupin nearly panicked when she offered to do a reading for him. Maybe it really is a crystal ball, and not the moon. After all, JKR frequently makes humorous references to Trelawney looking like a giant insect. If Lupin was imagining Trelawney's crystal ball turning into an actual insect, and a rather puny one at that, I can see why he would find that funny. Me - Which begs the question of why he's scared of divinations. maybe he was the one who witnessed Trelawney's first prediction? He could have been studying alone with her to catch up from classes missed due to his lycanthropy. Perhaps she said that Potter would be betrayed by a friend - which would go part way to explaining why James didn't necessarily trust Remus. The prediction then led to them secretly changing the Secret Keeer, which led to their deaths (and Sirius being falsly imprisoned but Remus doesn't know that at that point). If Trelawney hadn't made the prediction - would events have turned out that way? It would be a valid reason for not wanting to have your future told. K From hp at plum.cream.org Sat Mar 15 11:32:27 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 11:32:27 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ridiculing the moon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030315112737.00986510@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53811 At 01:52 15/03/03 , Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: >The first time I read PoA, I thought the orb was a crystal ball. After >all, Trelawney said Lupin nearly panicked when she offered to do a reading >for him. > >Maybe it really is a crystal ball, and not the moon. After all, JKR >frequently makes humorous references to Trelawney looking like a giant >insect. If Lupin was imagining Trelawney's crystal ball turning into an >actual insect, and a rather puny one at that, I can see why he would find >that funny. err... PoA, UK ed. p. 253, in the Shrieking Shack: (Lupin): "Did you check the lunar chart and realize that I was always ill at the full moon? Or did you realize that the boggart changed into the moon when it saw me?" "Both," Hermione said quietly. As to why it turns into a cockroach, it could simply be case of turning something which has (in effect) power of life and death over him into something over which he has that power. From hp at plum.cream.org Sat Mar 15 14:01:36 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 14:01:36 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magical Rooms In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.20030314125959.0095ab80@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030315130651.0096d8a0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53812 Steve said, in reply to my previous: >The idea of a magical antichamber seems very weak to me since I >suspect every room of any significant size has auxilialry rooms that >could be called antechambers. I suspect their could be small >antichambers off of the common rooms. Although I will admit they >haven't been mentions, my sense is that this type of >chamber/antechamber construction is very common in castles and large >manor/mansions. It seems too common; too many antechambers all over >the place for this one to have any significants. Although it IS a room >specifically mentioned in book four, so it definitely belongs on the list. The "theory" isn't about antechambers as such, but that one particular room. I do agree that antechambers are common in castles, but I don't see their relevance to this conversation. In any case, the room in question is never referred to as an antechamber (I'm not questioning your use of the word, it's just that you seem to be reading a lot into that word when it's not actually part of the thesis). Almost every room in Hogwarts could be called a "chamber" or an "antechamber", and the room in question has to be one of them. Whether or not the room *appears* "normal" or "common" is irrelevant to this conversation, the important thing is that it has magical properties which we haven't discovered. >The bathing room as with the antechambers seems too common. If I were >going to give a room magical properties, from the perspective of a >fictional wizard living in the Potterverse, why would I choose a bathing >room? I can't think of any reason. Of course, I may just be a fictional >wizard who lacks creative imagination. Again, though, isn't the idea of giving a room with a mundane usual use these infamous "magical properties" more Bangy than giving these properties to a room we already know to be magical? >There is no indication that it is a room Harry doesn't know about, it is >the magical properties he doesn't know about, and there is no indication >that it has to be a room that he has actually visited. It could be >Professor Sprout's office, he certainly knows about it, although he's >never been there that we know of, and he could discover that it has magic >properties that he doesn't know about. As I said before, the way I (and, it appears, a few other people) read it, the "yet" is an indicator that Harry knows about the mundane properties of the room, but the magical ones will surprise him (or at the very least, they need "discovering"). He wouldn't be surprised by a magical room having magical properties. Incidentally, my use of the word "mundane" is, of course meant to mean "mundane" by wizarding standards, not ours. As Finwitch said, any room in Hogwarts can have magical properties Harry hasn't discovered yet, and they all or most probably do. A room which is inherently magical draws attention to itself, and its magical properties don't need "discovering". >On the other hand, the room mentioned in book four actaully could be a >room Harry doesn't know about. I disagree. As the books are written from Harry's perspective, he must know anything which is "mentioned". He doesn't necessarily see it as important, but he *knows* it. Otherwise The Narrator wouldn't have mentioned it. (The only exception to this is the beginning of the first book, which is narrated reasonably objectively and outside of Harry's consciousness.) >A good illustration (although a poor example) Snape (character selected >randomly) could have mentioned a room to Fudge (character selected >randomly). That would qualify as a room that was mentioned in book four >that has magical properties Harry doesn't know about. That meets the >qualifications, although I am assuming that it is a room that Harry is at >least aware of. No it doesn't meet the qualifications. Either the room has been mentioned, or it hasn't. I don't understand your logic. I do appreciate that you're posing a hypothetical situation, but there is no mention of Snape taking Fudge into another room, so it can hardly be considered "mentioned in the book". It might have been "mentioned in the story", but it most definitely wasn't mentioned in the text of the book. Considering JKR adores playing cat-and-mouse with her fanatical readers, she is very deliberate in the way she phrases her answers and to date, as far as we know, she has never lied (although she has frequently been vague and answered questions very obliquely). If the room wasn't mentioned in the text of the book we all have, she wouldn't have used that word. "Mentioned in the book" can mean only that it was mentioned explicitly in the text. I do agree that it leaves open the question of whether Harry has been to the room or even seen it, but he must be aware of its existence. Otherwise, JKR would simply have said "a room Harry hasn't been in yet". >But I think it has to at least stand out in book 4, it has to somehow >catch our eye, otherwise it could literally be any room in the castle; Err... *why* should it have caught our eye? All we know is that the room was "mentioned", nothing more. That leaves a huge variety of options, from having been referred to in an apparently irrelevant conversation, to a room in which Harry spent a considerable amount of time, and all points in between. >I also think that since JKR ended her sentence with a big 'YET', that this >room will play a significant role in the future story, and equally implies >that Harry will discover it's magical properties. I don't see why it *necessarily* has to play a "significant" role (although I think it will, given the circumstances of the question), and isn't the fact that Harry discovers its properties the whole point? :-) >So right or wrong, for now I'm sticking with the Chamber Pot Room. It's a >small insignificant mention in the story, but it stands out because of >it's oddity. Which is precisely why I suspect that it's not the one. JKR wouldn't have it sticking out so much if it were that important. >Of course, that's just one man's opinion. Judging by the replies, it seems that it's *just* one man's. :-) -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who knows that the last comment isn't entirely true, but nobody else has spoken up for the Chamber Pot Room this time around. :-) From hp at plum.cream.org Sat Mar 15 14:27:30 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 14:27:30 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Betrayal In-Reply-To: References: <20030313212221.19554.qmail@web40503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030315140333.00970540@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53813 finwitch wrote: >Oh and BTW, Madam Hooch saying that anyone who didn't stay put was out the >course, Harry *was* out the course after that-- only he ended up in Gryff. >team! Did Malfoy *also* get kicked out the course? L.O.O.N. point: she didn't threaten them with being kicked off the course. She threatened them with expulsion from Hogwarts. Probably a typical empty teacher's threat (much like Snape's continued threats to do horrible things to the Gryffindors), but a threat nevertheless. The charge of favouritism still stands. Malfoy probably wasn't punished because no teacher ever saw him in the air during the lesson. Nevertheless, Harry *did* show exceptional natural talent and it would've been objectively rather silly for McGonagall not to have recognised it by giving him a place on the team. She does, however, leave Harry with the words that punishment will be reinstated if he doesn't train properly. Regardless of the circumstances, though, and returning in a roundabout way to one element of the original topic, this is just another one of those things which add to the public perception that Harry gets away with breaking the rules, or perhaps even appears to be rewarded for doing so. I'm certain that we haven't seen the end of this topic in the books, and whilst Ron and Hermione (partially because they're involved in some way most of the time Harry "gets away with things") are generally likely to believe him, Ron's already shown that he can forget that "things happen to Harry" (the Rift), and Hermione has also been slightly disbelieving at times. One person who's always trusted and believed Harry is Dumbledore. There has to come a time when even he won't believe Harry's explanation, and that's going to be a very BIG moment, when Harry will be all alone. I expect that to happen in Book Six. This is another reason why I believe that Hagrid has to go in Book Five, because he would *always* believe Harry, regardless of what he's done or not done. One of the Bangy things about that moment is that Harry will be left questioning whether he can even trust *himself* (which he already did in CoS, and perhaps one of the things JKR was referring to when she spoke of that book's importance). The ultimate betrayal. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who is surprised how this post ended up, considering it started off as a LOON one-liner. :-) From rvotaw at i-55.com Sat Mar 15 14:30:10 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 08:30:10 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: who is gonna die? References: Message-ID: <00d201c2eaff$6509b410$739dcdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 53814 Carrie wrote: >> My thinking is Dobby, Winky, Lupin or Sirius. Brittany responded: > Just want to make a clear, clarifying post. Lupin can't die, > because Rowling has stated that he will appear in later books, and > will be an integral part of book seven. Dobby, Winky, and Sirius > are up for grabs, though (I don't want Dobby or Sirius to die!). Okay, it amazes me how information on future books keeps popping up. I've never heard that Lupin would be an integral part of book seven. All JKR said (from what I've read, which is pretty much everything I can get my hands on) was that we'd see Lupin in Book 5. She said that in interviews right after GoF was released. Can you perhaps point me in the direction of an interview in which she said he'd be an integral part of book 7? Because that's a new one on me. I still think Hagrid's got a target painted on his back. Lupin's another possibility (unless I can find an interview where JKR said he'd be in book 6 or 7) since we know he's in Book 5, who knows, he could die in book 5. A few weeks ago I'd have loved for Dobby to be the one to go, but when I saw TMTMNBN2 I fell in love with Dobby. Long live Dobby. (Besides, I like the thought that he may have been the Potter's house elf.) Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hp at plum.cream.org Sat Mar 15 15:22:21 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 15:22:21 +0000 Subject: Graduation (British Muggle/Wizarding schooling) In-Reply-To: <20030314190825.19071.qmail@web13103.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4.2.0.58.20030311015935.0095d670@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030315143003.009731b0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53815 Gina Rosich replied to my previous mega-post with: >There is nothing in cannon about graduation at Hogwarts. But they do have >a leaving feast every year. And I'm willing to bet the older students do >something we readers are not privy to yet because Harry won't have been >included. I do agree that there are details we have yet to learn, but the Leaving Feast is for the whole school to celebrate the end of term, not just for the OWL and NEWT students. My school had an end-of-year feast as well, but there was never anything special for those ending their time there. (With the small proviso that those who were 18 or over were allowed a glass of wine, but that came from their age, not their academic status). >Maybe the school does something small. Or the students simply go off to >Hogsmeade for something a little stronger than butterbeer to celebrate... I don't doubt that last one for one moment. It certainly happens in real-world British schools, and celebrating the end of GCSE exams is usually the first time in their lives that most (otherwise rational, law-abiding, etc) teenagers have their first experience of being drunk. In fact, it's sort of assumed by everyone (teachers, parents, pubs, the police, etc) that *all* GCSE kids will be passed out somewhere. :-) (Case in point: three years ago, our esteemed Prime Minister's son was found in Leicester Square after celebrating his GCSEs - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/822238.stm - the way Euan was dealt with was fairly typical and his dad's position had nothing to do with it.) >And if there is no formal education after the NEWTs, then they must be >used for job qualifications at least (e.g. Percy at the MoM). Otherwise, >why would anyone care how many OWLs or NEWTs one got? I agree. The reason I drew the distinction between A Levels and NEWTs was that A Levels were invented as the means of entering further academic study. They aren't really of any value to employers, as they aren't designed to be "practical". On the other hand, GCSEs are very much designed to be practical and to establish that you've attained an acceptable standard for entering the workforce and learning a "job". This isn't to say that employers completely disregard A Level results; far from it - the point is that they aren't of immediate interest unless the job involves an element of research, writing, etc. Furthermore, few people with no intention of going to university will bother taking A Levels: whilst seen not quite as a waste of time, they are generally seen as a loss of two years of gaining on-the-job experience. (Parenthetically, most UK employers currently demand a *minimum* of a university degree or similar for anything other than menial, bottom-of-the-rung jobs, but that is partially a political issue and thus not appropriate for discussion). >I still believe (as others have speculated) that there must be some kind >of post-NEWTs educational training, just not at University. Maybe >professionals and experts (e.g. Pompfrey doing nursing or Snape being the >potions Master) take on interns or apprentices. Again, I'm in total accord with you. A system of guilds, apprenticeships and private research projects were the way things were done until the advent of the modern education system (in the UK, that can be precisely dated to the 1902 Education Act, which was modified in 1944, mainly in respect of the way the system was funded - that this was *during* WWII is not incidental), and I fully expect that the wizarding community would have the same attitude. A perfect example is Charlie Weasley's sojourn in Romania, and I doubt that he'd be there unless he'd got a NEWT in Care Of Magical Creatures. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who still hasn't finished modifying his mega-post into an article for the Lexicon - Sorry, Steve. From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Mar 15 17:07:25 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 17:07:25 -0000 Subject: Ridiculing the moon In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030315112737.00986510@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53816 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, GulPlum wrote: > At 01:52 15/03/03 , Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: > If Lupin was imagining Trelawney's crystal ball turning into an > >actual insect, and a rather puny one at that, I can see why he would find > >that funny. > > > As to why it turns into a cockroach, it could simply be case of turning > something which has (in effect) power of life and death over him into > something over which he has that power. In the film version of Neil Simon's The Sunshine Boys, the Walter Matthau character (a retired comedian) says, "Words with a 'K' are funny - 'cockroaches' are funny - not if you have them, only if you say it." - CMC (resolving to work the word "cockroach" into my next Lupin filk) From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 15 17:55:14 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 17:55:14 -0000 Subject: British Muggle/Wizarding schooling WAS Graduation In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030315143003.009731b0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53817 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, GulPlum wrote: > Gina Rosich replied to my previous mega-post with: > >And if there is no formal education after the NEWTs, then they > >must be used for job qualifications at least (e.g. Percy at the > >MoM). Otherwise, why would anyone care how many OWLs or NEWTs > one got? Richard: > I agree. The reason I drew the distinction between A Levels and > NEWTs was that A Levels were invented as the means of entering > further academic study. They aren't really of any value to > employers, as they aren't designed to be "practical". On the other > hand, GCSEs are very much designed to be practical and to > establish that you've attained an acceptable standard for entering > the workforce and learning a "job". [quote moved further down] > Furthermore, few people with no intention of going to > university will bother taking A Levels: whilst seen not quite as > a waste of time, they are generally seen as a loss of two years > of gaining on-the-job experience. (Parenthetically, most UK > employers currently demand a *minimum* of a university degree or > similar for anything other than menial, bottom-of-the-rung jobs, > but that is partially a political issue and thus not appropriate for discussion). Sorry Richard, but ''A' levels are only good for going to University' is completely wrong. It may be true in 2003 (though I wonder), but when I was taking my 'A' levels (a couple of years before JKR took hers) fully half my class was not intending to go on to university (I was rather doubtful about University myself, as I was part of the first generation in my family to go) The half of my class who were not intending to go took A levels for the very simple reason that 'A' levels meant a better job. Apply for the Civil Service at 16 with GCSE's, you go into Clerical Grade (and stay there). Apply for the Civil Service at 18 with 'A' levels, you go into the bottom rung of the Administrator grade, with more promotion possibilities. Engineering, accountancy, all sorts of trades with on-the-job training all had (and often still have) the same split. Leaving at 16 put pupils on the 'blue collar' level; leaving at 18 with 'A' levels put you on the 'white collar/trainee management' level. Richard: > This isn't to say that employers completely disregard A Level > results; far from it - the point is that they aren't of immediate > interest unless the job involves an element of research, writing, > etc. 'A' levels are academic, and the arts subjects probably aren't much practical use to an employer. Science subjects are another matter entirely - an engineer needs to study Maths and Physics, for example. But even academic subjects told an employer that their new trainee was capable of absorbing large amounts of information and applying it under conditions of some pressure. This is a handy thing to know when you're considering whether to invest two or three years of training time. So Percy the Ambitious would *not* want to leave at 16 so he could get two extra years experience in making the tea, Weatherby [grin]. Even in the Muggle world, leaving at 16 would make him a clerical worker. Staying on the extra 2 years and getting good grades would be the thing to do. Madame Rosemerta, on the other hand, may well have left Hogwarts at 16, if the previous owners of the Three Broomsticks were her relatives. With a business to step into, the two years of on-the-job experience might well be more valuable than academic school studies. > Gina: > >I still believe (as others have speculated) that there must be > >some kind of post-NEWTs educational training, just not at > >University. Maybe professionals and experts (e.g. Pompfrey > >doing nursing or Snape being thepotions Master) take on interns > or apprentices. Richard: > Again, I'm in total accord with you. A system of guilds, > apprenticeships and private research projects were the way things > were done until the advent of the modern education system (in the > UK, that can be precisely dated to the 1902 Education Act, which > was modified in 1944, mainly in respect of the way the system was > funded - that this was *during* WWII is not incidental), and I > fully expect that the wizarding community would have the same > attitude. It's still the case in a large number of muggle professions. A degree does not get you Chartered Engineer status. It just gains you exemption from some of the *exams*. It's still not completely unknown for engineers without the degree to study privately for the exams. Accountancy is similar - a lot of people train on the job for the degree level Accountancy exams. So it would be strange if the WW did not have a similar system of job based exams and qualifications (Snape might be a Chartered Apothecary, for example). The other point to consider is that the British WW is quite simply too *small* to support a University. 1000 students (JKR's estimate of the size of Hogwarts) equals 143 students per year. If 50% decide to go on to University, and it's a 3 year English style course, then that's only 214 undergraduates TOTAL. 214 people is an awfully small college. Generally, only specialist schools can afford to be that small. Individual research and training would actually make a *lot* more sense. Pip From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Mar 15 18:31:40 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 18:31:40 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: British Muggle/Wizarding schooling WAS Graduation References: Message-ID: <3E73718C.000001.98935@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 53818 Pip wrote - So it would be strange if the WW did not have a similar system of job based exams and qualifications (Snape might be a Chartered Apothecary, for example). The other point to consider is that the British WW is quite simply too *small* to support a University. 1000 students (JKR's estimate of the size of Hogwarts) equals 143 students per year. If 50% decide to go on to University, and it's a 3 year English style course, then that's only 214 undergraduates TOTAL. 214 people is an awfully small college. Generally, only specialist schools can afford to be that small. Individual research and training would actually make a *lot* more sense. Me - I certainly think there has to be some post-Hogwarts training for professions such as potions making and nursing, and since the world seems to be medieval/renaissance in many respects I think a system similar to medieval guilds would be most likely. But what about for things like teaching. I can't see a school hiring someone to teach (for example) Transfigurations up to NEWT standard if their highest qualification was a NEWT. It just doesn't make sense. I knw JKR has said there isn't a university and I agree there aren't enough pupils to support one. But there would be enough to support a college at Oxford or Cambridge (or St Andrews or any other collegiate university for that matter, but only one) and since they were both founded (I believe) before the wizarding world split from the muggle one then it would fit. Plus some of them tend to be very old fashioned and traditional so I doubt it would even look out of place. And I know if there was such a college it would contradict JKR's statement (and it's her world so she should know), but I feel there is a need for something. K From artsylynda at aol.com Sat Mar 15 19:17:24 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 14:17:24 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ghost Cedric Message-ID: <145.cffb49f.2ba4d644@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53819 Cedric died happy His mother rationalized that he must have been happy because he was co-winner of the cup, and Harry didn't argue the point with her. But in the actual scene, Cedric was wary -- "Wands out, you reckon?" were his last words as they found themselves in a place that was unexpected and felt dangerous. I wouldn't say that was dying happy -- he died prepared to meet some challenge, not having happy thoughts of his half of the winnings. I imagine the "happy thoughts" fled as soon as they saw where they were. IMHO anyway. Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From artsylynda at aol.com Sat Mar 15 19:24:06 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 14:24:06 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] How hard would it be. . .(was: Re: who is gonna die?) Message-ID: <138.1ca62684.2ba4d7d6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53820 Risti: > Voldemort knows he can't touch > Harry when he's with his relatives... So let's get rid of the > relatives. Back in that fateful Oprah interview that kid did say > that JKR told him something about the wizarding world mixing with the > muggle world because of Voldemort. You want to talk about > character's out living their plot purposes? It's pretty obvious that > with Voldemort back in town, he won't wait all patient like for Harry > to have a miserable summer off from adventure. > I really like your reasoning here, and it works well from many aspects. Harry will be "set adrift" without the protection he had from those relatives (whatever protection they were for him). The people who care about Harry will feel badly that he's lost his last living relatives and all they ever said or thought about those people were bad things. Harry will have to face the fact that he resented them, even hated them, all those years, and probably deservedly so -- but since Harry is such a decent person at heart, he will probably feel guilty for not having done a better job of getting along with them (despite the fact there was no way on Earth he COULD get along with them, and he realizes that too -- an endless circle of frustration and guilt). The flaw in this analysis is that they aren't fans of Harry's. That one qualification bumps the Dursleys out of contention as the victims, although I really like your idea and how it would play out. BTW, is there any way of seeing/hearing/reading the Oprah Winfrey interview with the cast? I keep hearing about it, but I've never seen it and would like to. Thanks! Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From realbadger at earthlink.net Sat Mar 15 19:34:22 2003 From: realbadger at earthlink.net (Badger) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 19:34:22 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Death Eaters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53821 << Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 01:52:25 +0000 From: "Cerys Gordon" Subject: Snape and the Death Eaters? >> << I've been thinking about Snape and the Death Eaters as I've just finshed re-reading GoF. Lord V talks about the different DE who are missing and what happened to them and he mentions the one who betrayed him who will die. I'm thinking that has to be Snape, in which case what will his role be in fighting V now that he has returned? Malfoy Sr. always seemed to be friendly with Snape so did he not know of his betrayal? Most importantly what could have made Snape change sides right at the height of V's power? Of course that begs the question did he really change sides? I personally hope that by the end of the series Snape is redeemed as I just love him (especially in the movies). >> The impression I got at first was the DE to whom Lord V referred and indicated would be killed would be Karkaroff for his snitching to get out of Azkaban, and his fleeing when the Black Mark reappeared. I've glanced at the passage again and it does imply Snape is the one Lord V **believes** may have left him forever. There is doubt in the statement. Apparently the Dark Lord is not entirely certain yet; facts may have eluded him in this respect, similar to Lupin suspecting Sirius and for a time, vice versa. If Snape is going back undercover, so to speak, he could say truthfully that he could not disapparate from the Hogwarts grounds, so he could not meet up with them "in a timely fashion." My concern is that Lord V clearly has a profound talent for discerning truth from falsehoods, correctly noting lies from both wizard (Harry and Pettigrew) and Muggle (Bryce). Hopefully Snape has a way around that if he shows up to join the DE gang.... realbadger, a loyal Hufflepuff geoffreygould.notlong.com From gingerssnape1966 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 15 20:07:00 2003 From: gingerssnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingerssnape1966) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:07:00 -0000 Subject: FILK: I Must Be Free Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53822 I Must Be Free (Dobby's Meditation) A filk on "It Must Be Me (Candide's Meditation)" from Candide. Words by Richard Wilbur. Music by Leonard Bernstein. Dedicated to Kelley for her tireless work fighting Yahoomort on my behalf. I Must Be Free (Dobby's Meditation) Dobby (still enslaved by the Malfoys) sings: My master told me that clothes aren't for my kind; The thought of trousers just drives me from my mind. There must be jumpers and hosiery. I must be free, I must be free. My master told me that clothes are for the good. I think more of them than a good House-Elf should. I long for neckties and jewelry. I must be free, I must be free. I never realized that was such a short song. Ginger, who, thanks to Yahoomort, is now gingerssnape1966; and, once again, apologizes for any confusion this may cause. (Sigh. It must be me, It must be me.) From jmmears at comcast.net Sat Mar 15 20:12:26 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:12:26 -0000 Subject: Ghost Cedric In-Reply-To: <145.cffb49f.2ba4d644@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53823 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, artsylynda at a... wrote: > Cedric died happy > > His mother rationalized that he must have been happy because he was co-winner > of the cup, and Harry didn't argue the point with her. But in the actual > scene, Cedric was wary -- "Wands out, you reckon?" were his last words as > they found themselves in a place that was unexpected and felt dangerous. I > wouldn't say that was dying happy -- he died prepared to meet some challenge, > not having happy thoughts of his half of the winnings. I imagine the "happy > thoughts" fled as soon as they saw where they were. IMHO anyway. I don't think JKR meant that people who were not "happy" at the moment of their deaths would become ghosts. If that were the case, I think that there'd be many, many more ghosts since I imagine that most people aren't really all that thrilled to be dying in falls, car crashes, protracted illnesses, etc. What she said in the Scholastic Interview (Feb 2000) was "...the happiest people do not become ghosts." To me that would indicate that a person who was generally content with their lot in life would not be likely to return as a ghost. If you use Moaning Myrtle as an example of someone who *isn't* generally happy, then Cedric, in contrast, seems to be unlikely to fall into the same category. In fact, he seems to be someone who had a pretty pleasant and successful life, and enjoyed it right up to the end. So, I really would be surprised to see him return as a ghost. Just IMHO of course, Jo Serenadust From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 15 20:32:54 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:32:54 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Whinging References: <1047601428.7993.31483.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003601c2eb32$0f119d60$bb4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 53824 Steve wrote: > Out of curiousity, is "whinge" a contemporary word? Would I find it in > the Oxford Dictionary? Doesn't matter; just curious. > > Of course, being from the midwest, I was looking forward to winging my > way over the ocean to visit Little Whinging (winging). Little Win-Jing > sound like it should be a small village just a few miles west of > Beijing (Peking). It is indeed a contemporary word. I tend to think of it as being mostly an Australian word, used of the English ie "whinging Pom" and based on the stereotype of the English complaining all the time (by contrast with the equally stereotypical stoic Aussie). As in this joke: How do you know when a planeload of Poms has landed? The engines stop but you can still hear the whining..." Cheers Ffred (neither English nor Australian) O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 15 20:50:32 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:50:32 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dress robes References: <1047647239.2684.40455.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004d01c2eb34$85bd5600$bb4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 53825 GulPlum wrote: >My point exactly. If you can't imagine "dress robes" based on what the >movies portray, the movie doesn't portray something that can rationally be >called a "robe". In other words, I imagine "dress robes" to be along the >lines of what Dumbledore wears rather than what the students wear. My mental picture is that normal wizardly dress is the kind of "Renaissance alchemist" garb, except that for more down to earth purposes robes are plain rather than decorated with magical symbols, apart from the fact that wizards seem to enjoy wearing bright colours I think they'd look monkish in their day to day appearance. However dress robes are a lot more elaborate. When I was a student at Oxford in the 1970s, there was a shop in town that sold academic dress and they would often have one of the robes appropriate to one of the university bigwigs on display in the window, whereas students wore plain black, some of the dress gowns were extremely flamboyant in reds, golds, etc. So my feel about the Hogwarts robes is that whereas the professors would wear something plain for everyday, there would be ceremonial ones appropriate to the Headmaster, the heads of Houses, and so on, which no one else would wear, whereas the students would wear more "decorated" robes, perhaps multicoloured, with sigils and symbols on them. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From spikespiegelfletch at yahoo.com Sat Mar 15 20:19:36 2003 From: spikespiegelfletch at yahoo.com (Brittany) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:19:36 -0000 Subject: Ghost Cedric In-Reply-To: <12c.25a551ed.2ba42d9a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53826 Cheryl wrote: > > I always thought Cedric might come back as a ghost... > > > > This makes sense to me and I can even justify it. > > Yes Cedric died happy and should be safe...but, as we've all > speculated, there are forces at work in the WW that don't quite buy Harry's > story and who may actively work to punish Harry for his supposed part in > Cedric's death. > > So, a WW trial/hearing/whatever is held to send Harry to Askaban/St. > Mungos/wherever. And Cedric is drawn back from wherever to defend Harry, > publicly appearing in front of all Harry's accusers. Shock, > horror...especially when he says to Dad or Fudge, publicly "Why couldn't you > let me rest?" I can definitely see your reasoning, and I wouldn't put it past JKR to bring Cedric back as a ghost, but I just wanted to throw in a few points. How long does it take for a person to become a ghost? Because, using Myrtle as a reference, she says in book two that she waited and waited for someone to come find her body, until Olive Hornby did. So, for me, that implies that she became a ghost pretty much immediately. So, if Cedric isn't a ghost by now, I don't know if he can become one. Then there is also the point that he could be a ghost at his parents' house or something, and we don't know about it yet. Even though that would be incredibly painful for his parents :( Another point I wanted to mention, I don't know if JKR would bring him back after the whole Harry-sees-Cedric's-echo ordeal. And Lily and James and Bertha Jorkins came back as echoes, too, and their not ghosts, though the priori incantantem spell would probably have brought back their echoes anyway, even if they were ghosts. My point is that she's already sort of brought back Cedric, so I don't know if she'd do it again (making it more painful for Harry to forgive himself and move past it, I think). And then there's the hypothetical situation you mentioned, which would be interesting, and I've often wondered how the rest of the wizarding world views Harry after Rita Skeeter's article. We never really find out, except in seeing Fudge's view, which isn't very encouraging. But if Harry is accused of something, I think it would be more interesting plot-wise to see him on his own in defending himself, plus Dumbledore or Sirius or someone. Maybe that's how Sirius might get caught, no idea, just speculating. But I think it would definitely be interesting to see the whole wizarding world turning against "the famous Harry Potter," even though, like I've said before, I can't stand to see the kid hurt. Just thought I'd mention my alternating views, because I'm not throwing out the idea that Cedric could come back as a ghost, I just don't know if I see it actually happening. As always, guess we'll have to wait and see (could June 21st get here any slower?). Brittany, who will miss Cedric, ghost or not From karenwickersham at ameritech.net Sat Mar 15 21:59:20 2003 From: karenwickersham at ameritech.net (karywick) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 21:59:20 -0000 Subject: How hard would it be...(was:Re: who is gonna die?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53827 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Risti" wrote: > )Sorry didn't mean to Snip the start when she remrked about attacking the Dursleys) > > It'd never happen, you say? Well, Voldemort knows he can't touch > Harry when he's with his relatives... So let's get rid of the > relatives. Back in that fateful Oprah interview that kid did say > that JKR told him something about the wizarding world mixing with the > muggle world because of Voldemort. You want to talk about > character's out living their plot purposes? It's pretty obvious that > with Voldemort back in town, he won't wait all patient like for Harry > to have a miserable summer off from adventure. > I agree with you Risiti and I would like to expand : I posted a theory as to how book 5 started a while back and nobody replied but now it looks as if someone was thinking the same way. Every summer it seems like Harry relaxes until schhol starts. But after LV let Harry slip through his fingers at the end of Gof and Lucius Malfoy, Mr Crabbe, and Mr Goyle having their precious sons coming home looking like a monster from a bad 50's Japanese monster movie from the mix of curses on the train I don't think they are going to sit back and let Harry have a nice relaxing summer. There canon passages on how the DEs and LV liked to torture muggles in the past were better to start up again than on parents of Hogwarts kids they have a beef on. They can go to the Dursley's (maybe the ancient Magic protects the children but not the parents) torture the parents and that's how Dudley gets to be the one with the late start to the Magical career. Also this would be a time where that often discussed Underage Magic outside Hogwarts plot device might come into play. Would Harry actually be afraid to defend the Dursleys because of not returning to Hogwarts? Harry would have to send a owl to Ron immediately to find a way to his house, but what would stop the Weasleys from being attacked? Fred, George and Ron were a part of the hex attack too, so maybe they'd have to find a way to contact Dumbledore (but he'd know anyways, right?) The DEs could the go to Hermione's house and kidnap her after torturing her muggle parents. Commments have been made on this list that Crookshanks has not gotten a chance to use his skills to lead his master home yet. Then they could go on and on wreaking havoc at the Creevey household and any other Muggle family household terrifying the Hogwarts children and making them terrified to return back to Hogwarts. It certainly would be a different beginning to OotP. I'm ready for a little break with something different. But truthfully, right now I'll be deliriously happy with the "same ole same ole" (97 days isn't it?) Kary From kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au Sat Mar 15 21:03:35 2003 From: kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au (kenney) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 21:03:35 -0000 Subject: Bowman Wright: A creative perspective on Comic Relief supplements Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53828 It is my belief that the character of Bowman Wright (introduced in Quidditch through the ages) was introduced in the comic relief novelty books as a "background introduction" to the character. Mark my words there will be a Bowman Wright in the novels and only the sharp of eye may see where he was first introduced. Bowman Wright is the inventor of the modern form of the golden snitch, which was the aftermath of the slaughter of too many golden sniggets... He was said to live in Godric's Hollow, my belief is he lived next door to the potter household. I've raised this in many places before this one and found not to have generated much of an interest. JK loves to introduce important things in previous books like black, his motorbike was used in the first book, but his character was not explored until the Third I think I've stumbled onto one of these... Hope you liked my first post... tar all from Kenneyjohn From pretty_feet51 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 15 22:19:35 2003 From: pretty_feet51 at yahoo.com (Risti) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 22:19:35 -0000 Subject: How hard would it be...(was:Re: who is gonna die?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53829 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "karywick" > I posted a theory as to how book 5 started a while back and nobody > replied but now it looks as if someone was thinking the same way. I must have missed that one while I was away from the list for awhile, because I've been thinking this for awhile now. > Every summer it seems like Harry relaxes until schhol starts. But > after LV let Harry slip through his fingers at the end of Gof and > Lucius Malfoy, Mr Crabbe, and Mr Goyle having their precious sons > coming home looking like a monster from a bad 50's Japanese monster > movie from the mix of curses on the train I don't think they are > going to sit back and let Harry have a nice relaxing summer. I never even thought of it from that angle, but you're right. > There canon passages on how the DEs and LV liked to torture muggles > in the past were better to start up again than on parents of Hogwarts > kids they have a beef on. They can go to the Dursley's (maybe the > ancient Magic protects the children but not the parents) torture the > parents and that's how Dudley gets to be the one with the late start > to the Magical career. Also this would be a time where that often > discussed Underage Magic outside Hogwarts plot device might come into > play. Would Harry actually be afraid to defend the Dursleys because > of not returning to Hogwarts? Harry would have to send a owl to Ron > immediately to find a way to his house, but what would stop the > Weasleys from being attacked? Fred, George and Ron were a part of > the hex attack too, so maybe they'd have to find a way to contact > Dumbledore (but he'd know anyways, right?) I think that despite the way they've been, Harry wouldn't hesitate to try and protect the Dursley's. The only question is, could he? Going back to the theory on Harry and his lack of failures that I kept meaning to reply to, what if the big failure of his is to fail to protect the people who, albeit unknowinging, have protected him his whole life. As for contacting the Weasley's, I think, although I have no clue how she's know about it, that Arabella Figg would be more likely to make an appearance at this point. > The DEs could the go to Hermione's house and kidnap her after > torturing her muggle parents. Commments have been made on this list > that Crookshanks has not gotten a chance to use his skills to lead > his master home yet. > > Then they could go on and on wreaking havoc at the Creevey household > and any other Muggle family household terrifying the Hogwarts > children and making them terrified to return back to Hogwarts. > It certainly would be a different beginning to OotP. I'm ready for a > little break with something different. But truthfully, right now > I'll be deliriously happy with the "same ole same ole" (97 days isn't > it?) I think that the book will begin differently, and will begin earlier. I've been reading through GoF, and I was on page 197, not even at Hogwarts yet, when I realized that the main reason that book is so much bigger then the others is because so much more happens before Harry even gets to school. With OOTP supposed to be even bigger, I don't think its outrageous to assume that it must begin even earlier. About the Dursley's not being 'fans' of Harry's. I was thinking about it(because I realized as soon as I hit post that I hadn't covered that point), and I remembered what the full quote said. JKR said it would be a fan of Harry's, but not someone we would automatically think of(or something to that effect). I still don't know how the Dursley's woul fit into that definition, but they definately aren't people we'd automatically think of as fans of Harry's. That said, Hagrid is definately near the top of the list of well known Harry fans. ~Risti From datalaur at yahoo.com Sat Mar 15 23:13:00 2003 From: datalaur at yahoo.com (datalaur) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 23:13:00 -0000 Subject: Ridiculing the moon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53830 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "clio44a" wrote: > Why on earth does Professor Lupin's boggart (the moon) turn into a > cockroach after the Riddikulus spell?? > What's funny about a cockroach? Lupin himself, when lecturing his > students how to face the boggart, says it should be forced into > something comical. Maybe he's thinking of how the moon turns him into a werewolf -- horrible, disgusting and dangerous -- and instead thinks of the moon turning him into a were-cockroach... horrible, disgusting and not at all dangerous. That seems pretty funny to me. laur From grosich at nyc.rr.com Sat Mar 15 22:48:00 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina R Rosich) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 17:48:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and the Death Eaters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53831 On 3/15/03 2:34 PM, "Badger" had this to say: > > > The impression I got at first was the DE to whom Lord V referred and > indicated would be killed would be Karkaroff for his snitching to get > out of Azkaban, and his fleeing when the Black Mark reappeared. I've > glanced at the passage again and it does imply Snape is the one Lord > V **believes** may have left him forever. There is doubt in the > statement. Apparently the Dark Lord is not entirely certain yet; > facts may have eluded him in this respect, similar to Lupin > suspecting Sirius and for a time, vice versa. > > > > My concern is that Lord V clearly has a profound talent for > discerning truth from falsehoods, correctly noting lies from both > wizard (Harry and Pettigrew) and Muggle (Bryce). Hopefully Snape has > a way around that if he shows up to join the DE gang.... > > realbadger, a loyal Hufflepuff > geoffreygould.notlong.com > ****** > > There is a very interesting scene in GoF (The Egg and the Eye) between Snape and Crouch-Moody, after Harry takes the egg to the Prefects bathroom, and then discovers Crouch in Snape?s office and gets trapped in the stair. Crouch-Moody all but accuses Snape of hiding things in his office, and Snape is clearly resentful of Crouch-Moody checking his office: ?You know I?m hiding nothing, Moody,? [Snape] said in a soft and dangerous voice, ?as you?ve searched my office pretty thoroughly yourself.? Moody?s face twisted into a smile. ?Auror?s privilege, Snape. Dumbledore told me to keep an eye ---? ?Dumbledore happens to trust me,? said Snape through clenched teeth. ?I refuse to believe that he gave you orders to search my office!? ?Course Dumbledore trusts you,? growled Moody. He?s a trusting man, isn?t he? Believes in second chances. But me?-I say there are spots that don?t come off, Snape. Spots that never come off, d?you know what I mean?? Snape clutches his arm (the dark mark of course) and then lets go of his arm ?as though angry with himself.? Now, what Snape doesn?t know (and we don?t know on first read) is that ?Moody? is really Crouch Jr. working for Voldemort. Snape is there practically telling Voldemort himself that he is above reproach in Dumbledore?s eyes. That he?s no longer a death eater. And his body language expresses regret at the ?spot? which can never come out. He is wearing his regret on his sleeve, as it were. Furthermore, Crouch-Moody has searched Snape?s office and surely must be disappointed to find nothing suspicious. It further engenders doubts in Snape?s loyalty to Voldemort. Snape is surely thinking Moody suspects ?a leopard can?t change its spots? as it were. But surely, Crouch-Moody is wondering that as well. And at the end of the scene, Snape?s regret and suspicion get the better of him and he decides to go back to bed. It?s the kind of thing which will always haunt Snape. Some people will always doubt him. Much the same way, I think Voldemort will always doubt him now. He has his loyal follower checking things out, and he was on the back of Quirrell?s head when Snape questioned his loyalties. I think that?s compelling enough for Snape to be ?lost forever? as opposed to running like a coward. Because Snape confronts, and he?s done it without apology to all but Voldemort himself. Does that make sense? --- Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carmenharms at yahoo.com Sun Mar 16 00:47:50 2003 From: carmenharms at yahoo.com (snazzzybird) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 00:47:50 -0000 Subject: Revisited: Pronunciation -Olympe Maxime In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53832 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Back to the pronunciation thread. > > How do YOU pronounce - Olympe Maxime? > > > Olympe - > > oh-lim-pee > oh-limp > oh-lie-ump > oh-lie-um-pee > > Maxime - > > macks-eem > macks-im-ee > macks-im-ay > macks-eye-um > macks-eye-um-ee (or macks-eye-me) > > For me it's always been - > > Oh-lim-pee Macks-eem > > I've always found French pronunciations to be a little odd. How > 'bourgeoisie' (bore-geo-issy) ever became boo-zhwa-zee, I will never > understand. But then, that's French. > > Any opinions on Madam Maxime's name? > > bboy_mn I've always pronounced it "oh-LEEM-puh max-EEM". --snazzzybird, whose second language is not French From hp at plum.cream.org Sun Mar 16 01:20:01 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 01:20:01 +0000 Subject: Beginning of OotP (Re: How hard would it be..) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030316010509.00970e60@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 53833 Risti wrote, on another subject, which I intend to take in a different direction: >I think that the book will begin differently, and will begin >earlier. I've been reading through GoF, and I was on page 197, not even >at Hogwarts yet, when I realized that the main reason that book is so much >bigger then the others is because so much more happens before Harry even >gets to school. With OOTP supposed to be even bigger, I don't think its >outrageous to assume that it must begin even earlier. Absolutely. As may people have suggested, now that he's back, Voldemort isn't going to wait until 1st September to make his presence felt. I for one fully expect the "meat" of the story to start very quickly, even while Harry is still at the Dursleys'. However, I don't expect much to have happened between the return from Hogwarts at the end of the fourth year at the beginning of July (the third task was on the 24th June, and there's a reference to the school year ending two weeks later), and Harry's birthday. The first words of GoF's last chapter are "When he looked back, even a month later...".This would indicate that JKR considers Harry's eye-view of that month to have been covered, so the narrative of OotP won't start before 24th July (if we take "month" literally). Of course, this doesn't mean that something very important hasn't happened during that month (or at least the two weeks since Harry's return to the Dursleys) - it's just that Harry doesn't know it yet. As I said at the top, I don't expect Voldemort to be waiting patiently, so the very first page of the book, even before Harry's birthday (I assume that the first or second chapter will focus on 31st July as usual) could feature some dangerous omen... And of course there's the issue of that boy lying in the flower bed... -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who's just uploaded an MP3 of a Robbie Coltrane interview on TV this evening to http://plum.cream.org/HP/misc/index.htm From trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no Sun Mar 16 02:06:29 2003 From: trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no (Trond Michelsen) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 03:06:29 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Beginning of OotP (Re: How hard would it be..) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030316010509.00970e60@plum.cream.org>; from hp@plum.cream.org on Sun, Mar 16, 2003 at 01:20:01AM +0000 References: <4.2.0.58.20030316010509.00970e60@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <20030316030629.B30906@crusaders.no> No: HPFGUIDX 53834 On Sun, Mar 16, 2003 at 01:20:01AM +0000, GulPlum wrote: > Absolutely. As may people have suggested, now that he's back, Voldemort > isn't going to wait until 1st September to make his presence felt. I don't agree with that. The end of GoF is such a set up for a conflict with The Ministry (Fudge) and Dumbledore. The whole premise for this conflict is that it can't be proven that Voldemort has returned. I think I'm going to be a little bit disappointed if this entire conflict just goes away by a very public stunt by Voldemort in the first chapter. Of course, Fudge would probably not admit the return of Voldemort, even if a few people here and there should happen to disappear, so Voldy doesn't exactly need to crawl to stay under his radar. But, I think this rift in the "good side" will take up most of the book, and that means that Voldy will have to work mostly unnoticed for a long time. Hmm, let's see, I suspect that Percy will be the one to alert Fudge that there's a conspiracy working against him. He may or may not know that his parents is a part of that conspiracy. If he knows they are, then he'll only tell Fudge if he himself is absolutely convinced that Voldy hasn't returned, and that his parents' action is very harmful to the wizard society. He'll only realize his mistake when it's too late. My guess is that the first "public" appearance of Voldemort will be during the attack on Azkaban, close to the end of the book. I'm also guessing that Hagrid arrives with the Giants just in the nick of time, and they're able to stop most of the Death Eaters from escaping. I also expect Hagrid (or Dumbledore) to be killed in this battle. I expect Voldemort to have a very strong upper hand when the book ends, which is why I'm not ruling out Dumbledore as this book's victim. -- // Trond Michelsen \X/ mike at crusaders.no From carrie525 at mybluelight.com Sun Mar 16 00:52:10 2003 From: carrie525 at mybluelight.com (Carrie S) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 16:52:10 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bowman Wright & A creative perspective on Comic Relief supplements References: Message-ID: <006701c2eb56$484cc220$f91a5142@net> No: HPFGUIDX 53835 Hi Kenneyjohn, I too noticed Bowman Wright was from Godric's Hollow which, for me, answered the question that it is a town or village not a house. I agree its too much of a coincidence and I bet he comes up again. But wasn't the Golden Snitch invented like100 yrs ago? I guess he could still be around. I like the idea that he lived near the Potter's house and was acquainted with James/Lily. He could become a special person for Harry. He would be able to give him information about his childhood. They would have the whole Quidditch thing in common also. Who better for Harry to meet than the Snitch maker? Plus he saved a lot of birds! What's not to like about that? Could he have witnessed something too add to Harry's (and our!) information? In reading the companion book MB&WTFT did you notice that there were some missing animals. I expect they are animals that JKR doesn't want us to know the full abilities of. Or maybe it's just me.... I thought Owls should have been there. They obviously must have some magical ability to know *where* people are, etc. Also, when Ron takes Scabbers in to that pet store there were "magical" rats and bunnies. Perhaps they were bewitched and that's why they weren't included. But I thought it was a curious omission, that type of thing isn't even mentioned. Especially since she included things like Flobberworms which seem pretty unmagical! I was hoping for info on magical frogs to gain some insight on Neville's pet. Carrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From trinity61us at yahoo.com Sun Mar 16 00:59:36 2003 From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 16:59:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bowman Wright: A creative perspective on Comic Relief supplements In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030316005936.96917.qmail@web14901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53836 kenney wrote: ; from carrie525@mybluelight.com on Sat, Mar 15, 2003 at 04:52:10PM -0800 References: <006701c2eb56$484cc220$f91a5142@net> Message-ID: <20030316034130.D30906@crusaders.no> No: HPFGUIDX 53837 On Sat, Mar 15, 2003 at 04:52:10PM -0800, Carrie S wrote: > But wasn't the Golden Snitch invented like100 yrs ago? I guess he > could still be around. According the Quidditch Through the Ages, it took 300 years from the first observation of Quidditch (the 11th century) to the invention of the Golden Snitch. So, it was invented at least 600 years ago, could be as much as 700. This actually makes him about the same age as Nicolas Flamel, so there's this very slim chance that they could have been friends, and that Flamel shared some Elixir of Life with him. And who knows how much elixir he had made before he destroyed the stone. I doubt we'll meet Bowman in the books, but at least there's a window for fanfic authors out there. -- // Trond Michelsen \X/ mike at crusaders.no From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sun Mar 16 03:19:18 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 03:19:18 -0000 Subject: La Cucaracha (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53839 Here's the promised Lupin-cockroach filk La Cucaracha To the Mexican folk tune of the same name Hear a MIDI at: http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/cesaretto/Hispanica/Hispanica.htm Dedicated to Clio, and inspired by her thread Ridiculing the Moon #53784 THE SCENE: The staff room. LUPIN dispenses of a boggart LUPIN: After entering the staff room I went to open up the wardrobe Hovering within its half gloom I then saw a silvery globe BOGGART (in the form of a full moon) Hey there muchacho, ya feeling macho? I'll portray your greatest fear And hey you werewolf I'm gonna scare wolf Transforming to lunar spheres LUPIN Teaching defense against Dark Arts I fight those who would untool us I know how to handle boggarts All you say is "Riddikulus" BOGGART You're in a spot-cha, 'cause now I gotcha LUPIN I'll just cast my spell on it (The BOGGART is transformed into a cockroach) BOGGART La cucaracha, I'm cucaracha Remus, please don't get the Flit Thought I'd change into Pandora Calypso or even Titan Turn you to a fiendish horror You'd be all the people bitin' LUPIN La cucaracha, you cucaracha You're ridiculous all right You're in a botch, ya, I now will scotch ya With some handy kitchen light! (With LUPIN'S Kitchen Lumos spell, the Boggart explodes) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm NOTE: Pandora, Calypso & Titan are three of Saturn's 18 or so moons From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sun Mar 16 04:45:39 2003 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:45:39 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7115043702.20030315204539@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53840 Thursday, March 6, 2003, 11:00:27 AM, drtruman wrote: d> Actually, it still doesn't dispel my most basic question, which comes d> back to temporal displacement. Doesn't Harry1 *have* to cast a d> successful Patronus in order to be able to return later (as Harry2)? d> Irrespective of what Harry2 then does or doesn't do when he returns, d> if *something* hasn't otherwise saved Harry from the dementors, how d> can he come back from the future? This has come up many times before on the list, namely because it remains one of the most mind-bending problems in the series. Harry has to go back in time to save himself, in order to go back in time to save himself! It other words, we're stuck with an apparently unresolvable temporal paradox in which two events separated in time are each other's cause and effect. The only two viable resolutions seem to be that either (A) Everything in the Potterverse is predestined, which undermines the series' recurring theme of the importance of our choosing our own actions; or (B) The Harry that first saves -- er -- "our" Harry is actually from another, parallel universe, which raises the question of where did *he* come from? I think someone should make this a fanfic challenge. Someone finally wrote a novel to resolve the 100-year old paradox of how the Tin Woodman and his severed flesh-and-blood head can co-exist as sentient beings; why not someone try to write a fanfic to resolve the "closed timelike loop" paradox of Harry, the time-turner, and the patronus? (And hopefully in much less than 100 years!) -- Dave From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sun Mar 16 04:56:23 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 23:56:23 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and the Death Eaters? Message-ID: <79.c8da753.2ba55df7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53841 Gina writes: > Now, what Snape doesn?t know (and we don?t know on first read) is that > ?Moody? is really Crouch Jr. working for Voldemort. Snape is there > practically telling Voldemort himself that he is above reproach in > Dumbledore?s eyes. That he?s no longer a death eater. And his body > language expresses regret at the ?spot? which can never come out. He is > wearing his regret on his sleeve, as it were. Furthermore, Crouch-Moody > has > searched Snape?s office and surely must be disappointed to find nothing > suspicious. It further engenders doubts in Snape?s loyalty to Voldemort. I think the fact that Snape DOESN'T know that is really Crouch JR. may be what saves his skin in that case. Snape, like many of the Death Eaters, could claim to be pretending to have changed his ways. As for the alliance with Dumbledore..well...there's that old saying that goes "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer" that could work well here. As for the 'Quirrell's Loyalties' bit, a simple case of mistaken objectives. He could've easily thought he (Quirrell) was trying to get the stone for himself. Then there's the little part in that scene that Harry doesn't hear (which always turns out to be Snape confessing his love to Quirrell in fanfics. 0.0. hehe). And he could've been trying to stop Quirrell for Voldemort's benefit. In GoF Voldemort says to the DEs- "You all know my goal -- to conquer death". Well, Snape could say he was trying to prevent anyone from reaching that goal themselves. Or something like that. Now, would Voldemort accept such excuses?? ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Sun Mar 16 04:16:01 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 04:16:01 -0000 Subject: Ridiculing the moon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53842 Clio wrote: Why on earth does Professor Lupin's boggart (the moon) turn into a cockroach after the Riddikulus spell?? ..Now, Lupin's moon boggart gets turned into a cockroach. Odd, isn't it? I don't see the connection between a cockroach and the moon/Lupin's lycantrophy (sp?). From the student's attemps it seems to be required to picture the object of fear in a comic situation. How does turning the moon into a cockroach make fun of the moon? Any ideas? ===================================================================== Hello all, Fred Waldrop here, At one time, I lived out in the country (lots of trees, fields, grass and stuff), and had one particular problem, cockroches. It seems there are two things that cockroches need to thrive on that makes it nearly impossible to kill. (1)food,(ie.), leaves, wood, grass, or any kind of trash. And (2)The MOON. And because roaches of any kind seem to "come alive" when the sun sets and the moon rises, maybe this is what seems funniest to Lupin. That the thing he fears most,(the moon), brings to life something as easy to kill as a single cockroach. While I hate the nasty little boogers (roaches) and find the moon exreamly beautiful, maybe someone whom hates the moon would find a roach funny. If not funny, maybe ironic that he has to fear something (the moon), that a cockroach seems to love, and that to him is funny. Fred From melodiousmonkey at yahoo.com.au Sun Mar 16 05:43:39 2003 From: melodiousmonkey at yahoo.com.au (melodiousmonkey) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 05:43:39 -0000 Subject: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? In-Reply-To: <7115043702.20030315204539@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53843 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > This has come up many times before on the list, namely because it > remains one of the most mind-bending problems in the series. Harry > has to go back in time to save himself, in order to go back in time > to save himself! It other words, we're stuck with an apparently > unresolvable temporal paradox in which two events separated in > time are each other's cause and effect. The only two viable > resolutions seem to be that either (A) Everything in the Potterverse > is predestined, which undermines the series' recurring theme of > the importance of our choosing our own actions; or (B) The Harry > that first saves -- er -- "our" Harry is actually from another, > parallel universe, which raises the question of where did *he* > come from? > -- > Dave Just a short note - there is a philosophical position called "soft- determinism", that holds that the universe is basically predetermined, yet we still effectively have free will. It's quite defendable too, but I won't try now. At any rate, time travel, especially time travel into the past, is going to create paradoxes. I wasn't fussed. Monkey From catlady at wicca.net Sun Mar 16 10:05:52 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 10:05:52 -0000 Subject: Dobby/ Betrayal/ Evil!Voldemort/ Harry as 'resilient' child abuse survivor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53844 Seventh Squeal wrote: << Very nice. You suggest that we take Dobby at face value. He's the house elf equivalent of a misfit social visionary. O.K. This still bothers me, though, because this makes him such a behavioral mutant. His own house elf comrades treat him like a St. Mungoloid and social pariah for seeking fulfilment outside of the traditional house elf status quo. What makes Dobby so anomalous, such a social freak? Can he be Polyjuice!Dobby? If so who is he? >> I always thought that it was the quite excessive cruelty with which the Malfoys are described as treating Dobby which caused him to get into this free-will stuff. It seems to me that the Malfoys (Dobby mentioned that they were always happy to remind him to punish himself) were torturing Dobby for roughly the same sort of pleasure that they got from torturing Muggles. It seems to me that that a reasonable owner of a House Elf wouldn't torture their House Elf, because the torture causes physical injuries that could interfere with the House Elf doing its work, and a reasonable person would value the competent, efficient work more than the pleasure of torturing someone helpless to resist. Tom Wall wrote: <> Karkaroff betrayed his friends by ratting them out to the Pensieve court in hope of lightening his own sentence. For that matter, Snape betrayed *his* friends by ratting them out to the Light Side. Richard GulPlum wrote: << It is only the context which drives the reader to the unambiguous conclusion that Voldemort's desires and choices are ultimately evil; there is no indication that he *is* evil, it is his actions (and the beliefs which fuel them) which are evil. >> Having seen the 16-year-old Tom Riddle raging about his hatred of his father, and yearning for the day when he is feared by all wizards, I don't think we need context to know that his desires are evil ... bitterness, rage, hatred, vengeance, and general desire to harm people ... Brittany wrote: << The amazing thing to me about Harry has always been his ability to keep going, survive, if you will, and not let doubt or low self-esteem (I hate that term) get in the way of what he feels he has to do. Most children in his situation would have come out a lot more traumatized, their character destroyed in many ways. >> Here is my oft-repeated theory: I think Lily was able, with her magic, to put an image of herself in her baby's mind, that would be like an 'imaginary mum' (by analogy with 'imaginary friend') who would cuddle Harry and tell him that he's a good kid who doesn't deserve Dursley abuse and tell him about how decent people behave, thus being that one caring adult ("example of goodness" in previous paragraph) said to be necessary to even a 'resilient' child's survival of serious abuse... I kind of think Lily used her last magic to put this image in his head intentionally, instead of using her last magic in one last attempt to escape Voldemort. That is the heroic self-sacrifce that canon credits her, accepting her own death because it was more important to her to give this protection (from abusive Dursleys) of her love. I don't know why she would do that if she really believed that he would be dead seconds after she was, so I am left sympathetic to the theories that Harry survived AK because of some magic that had been done on him (presumably by Lily) or that he had been born with. When Harry resisted the Imperius Curse, the Curse's Moody-voice in his head told him to jump up on the desk, and "another voice had awoken in the back of his brain. Stupid to do, really, said the voice." I believe that that other voice is what's left of the image-Lily after all these years; she doesn't appear often, she appears as Harry's voice instead of her own, but she still is caring for Harry -- and still has free will. In addition, so far we've always seen Harry wondering and trying to find out about his father, and not about his mother. Some say that's a plot device because JKR is saving some big surprise about Lily, and some say it's normal because Harry is 11 to 14 so far, puberty and adolescence, and much more concerned about a male image to identify with. But *I* say that he doesn't search so much for Lily because, unknown to himself, he already has her with him. From mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com Sun Mar 16 10:49:24 2003 From: mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com (Edward Post) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 05:49:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magical Room and Bill Weasley Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53845 Elisabeth asked about Bill Weasley: > And while we're on the subject of Bill Weasley, does anyone else > think he might play a larger role in the books to come? When I re- > read the fourth book, I just noticed how much he is mentioned and > how much fun he is. Rowling connects him to Rita Skeeter, she goes > on and on about his long hair, his presence in the infirmary at the > end...am I going crazy, or does he stand out? > > I would love to hear your thoughts!!\ > > Elisabeth I think it's clear that Bill was promoted from minor to major character during GoF. I saw somebody else write about his future relationship (or not) with Fleur, but to me, Bill's most important line in GoF was to ask Harry whether or not Sir Cadogan was still around! I was disappointed the brave and noble knight didn't put in a cameo in GoF, given that mention, but it makes me hopeful for a return soon. Ni! Mr. Ed (who wonders if anybody else has noticed that Norris spelled backwards can be read as "Sir Ron") _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sun Mar 16 13:03:09 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 13:03:09 -0000 Subject: Lily's protection (Was: Harry as 'resilient' child abuse survivor) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53846 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > Here is my oft-repeated theory: I think Lily was able, with her > magic, to put an image of herself in her baby's mind, that would be > like an 'imaginary mum' (by analogy with 'imaginary friend') who > would cuddle Harry and tell him that he's a good kid who doesn't > deserve Dursley abuse and tell him about how decent people behave, > thus being that one caring adult ("example of goodness" in previous > paragraph) said to be necessary to even a 'resilient' child's > survival of serious abuse... I kind of think Lily used her last magic > to put this image in his head intentionally, instead of using her > last magic in one last attempt to escape Voldemort. That is the > heroic self-sacrifce that canon credits her, accepting her own death > because it was more important to her to give this protection (from > abusive Dursleys) of her love. But why would Lily feel the need to give Harry protection against the Dursley's? Unlike the rest of the WW, she knew Sirius wasn't her Secret-Keeper, and she didn't know he was going to get framed and end up in Azkaban. According to Sirius himself, James and Lily had wanted him to take care of Harry if anything happened to them. So as far as Lily knew, if Harry somehow survived Voldemort's attack, he'd end up being raised by his loving godfather, so no extra protection against abusive adults would be necessary. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 16 14:18:44 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 14:18:44 -0000 Subject: British Muggle/Wizarding schooling WAS Graduation In-Reply-To: <3E73718C.000001.98935@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53847 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > Pip wrote - > So it would be strange if the WW did not have a similar system of > job based exams and qualifications (Snape might be a Chartered > Apothecary, for example). > > The other point to consider is that the British WW is quite simply > too *small* to support a University. 1000 students (JKR's estimate > of the size of Hogwarts) equals 143 students per year. If 50% > decide to go on to University, and it's a 3 year English style > course, then that's only 214 undergraduates TOTAL. > > 214 people is an awfully small college. Generally, only specialist > schools can afford to be that small. Individual research and > training would actually make a *lot* more sense. > > Kathryn: > > I certainly think there has to be some post-Hogwarts training for > professions such as potions making and nursing, and since the > world seems to be medieval/renaissance in many respects I think a > system similar to medieval guilds would be most likely. But what > about for things like teaching. I can't see a school hiring > someone to teach (for example) Transfigurations up to NEWT > standard if their highest qualification was a NEWT. It just > doesn't make sense. > > I know JKR has said there isn't a university and I agree there > aren't enough pupils to support one. But there would be enough to > support a college at Oxford or Cambridge (or St Andrews or any > other collegiate university for that matter, but only one) and > since they were both founded (I believe) before the wizarding > world split from the muggle one then it would fit. Plus some of > them tend to be very old fashioned and traditional so I doubt it > would even look out of place. > > And I know if there was such a college it would contradict JKR's > statement(and it's her world so she should know), but I feel there > is a need for something. > > K I think you are forgetting that many teachers in the Nineteenth and early Twentieth Centuries *were* trained by apprenticeship. If you read (for example) Charles Dickens' 'Our Mutual Friend', you'll see the boy Charley Hexam being apprentice teacher (it was actually called 'pupil teacher') to Bradley Headstone. The problem in canon is that we don't *know* how teachers are trained, or if they're trained at all. Hagrid certainly isn't trained to teach, Gilderoy Lockhart doesn't seem to be trained - it seems to be very much along the lines of 'you know a lot about this subject, come and teach it.' However, this may be largely due to the difficulty in getting DADA teachers, and Dumbledore's fondness for Hagrid. Lupin seems to have some kind of qualification to teach (Professor R.J. Lupin is on his suitcase in old and peeling letters). Hagrid, Lockhart and Moody/Crouch aren't called by the title 'Professor'. The people who are (Snape, Flitwick, McGonagall, Sprout) do all seem to manage well planned, professional teaching. Further, when Harry calls Snape plain 'Snape', Dumbledore corrects him [PS/SS]. 'Professor' seems to be a title that's earned. But you don't need a college to go beyond NEWT's. You just need a tutor, who can guide your course of study. You don't need to attend a lecture if you have a mentor who will tell you which books you need to study, what spells or potions you need to attempt, who is prepared to set assignments and give you advice on how well you completed them. You don't even need to have a final exam as such. The medieval system was that an apprentice produced a 'masterpiece' at the end of their apprenticeship. A masterpiece was a piece of work so complex that it was obvious the apprentice had mastered their craft. So Flitwick may have proved that he could cast the incredibly complex Fidelius Charm. Snape might have made up a Wolfsbane potion. And so on. Neither of these require them to have attended a college, but they would prove that they have studied their area to a level that is well beyond NEWT's. There might be a Hogwart's college at Oxford, except a) it contradicts JKR's interview statements and b) it's extremely likely that anyone studying Magic would have been chucked out/risked being imprisoned for heresy in the Middle Ages, or for Dissent/witchcraft in the Reformation. The University of London (another collegiate university) was founded because large numbers of people were not permitted to attend Oxford and Cambridge; their dreadful crime was to be of the wrong religion. The complete separation of the WW from the Muggle world argues that the times preceding the split must have been deeply traumatic. I can't really see Oxbridge protecting a college full of witches and warlocks during the 16th and 17th century witch hunts. St Andrews would have been even worse, as the witch hunts in Scotland were more virulent than in England. So it's possible that wizards *did* have their post Hogwarts college once, and lost it in the witch hunts before the split. Post split, with relatively small numbers needing further wizarding education, they may have found that an apprentice style 'personal tutor' to guide students' further study was actually all they needed. Pip From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Mar 16 16:02:26 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 16 Mar 2003 16:02:26 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1047830546.33.8660.m1@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53848 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, March 16, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CST (GMT-06:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Sun Mar 16 17:49:12 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 17:49:12 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: British Muggle/Wizarding schooling WAS Graduation References: Message-ID: <3E74B918.000001.37357@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 53849 Pip wrote - I think you are forgetting that many teachers in the Nineteenth and early Twentieth Centuries *were* trained by apprenticeship. If you read (for example) Charles Dickens' 'Our Mutual Friend', you'll see the boy Charley Hexam being apprentice teacher (it was actually called 'pupil teacher') to Bradley Headstone. Now me - But since Hogwarts is the only wizarding school in Britain, if teachers were trained in this way I would have thought we'd have seen it by now. Pip again - Lupin seems to have some kind of qualification to teach (Professor R.J. Lupin is on his suitcase in old and peeling letters). Hagrid, Lockhart and Moody/Crouch aren't called by the title 'Professor'. The people who are (Snape, Flitwick, McGonagall, Sprout) do all seem to manage well planned, professional teaching. Further, when Harry calls Snape plain 'Snape', Dumbledore corrects him [PS/SS]. 'Professor' seems to be a title that's earned. Me again - To me this implies some kind of non-apprentice style training, since the term 'Professor' is a term only used officially by universities whereas gulds use a system of 'apprentices', 'journeymen' and 'masters'. But I may be reading far too much into it. Pip said - But you don't need a college to go beyond NEWT's. You just need a tutor, who can guide your course of study. You don't need to attend a lecture if you have a mentor who will tell you which books you need to study, what spells or potions you need to attempt, who is prepared to set assignments and give you advice on how well you completed them. Me again - That's actually the sort of thing I was envisaging when I said a college. More the sort of teaching associated with postgraduate courses. While not possible in the muggle world at a university the small number of wizarding students would make it a lot more realistic. Although I could see certain tutors holding larger tutorials if they were well-renowned. Pip added - There might be a Hogwart's college at Oxford, except a) it contradicts JKR's interview statements and b) it's extremely likely that anyone studying Magic would have been chucked out/risked being imprisoned for heresy in the Middle Ages, or for Dissent/witchcraft in the Reformation. The University of London (another collegiate university) was founded because large numbers of people were not permitted to attend Oxford and Cambridge; their dreadful crime was to be of the wrong religion. Me - Some people would think that being a Medieval Studies postgrad at the University of London those arguements would have occurred to me ... However since they didn't (and ignoring the JKR argument because I already admitted to that one and don't have the quote to hand to try and twist it to my benefit) I will try and address them now. The college could have been hidden magically - but that would stop its qualifications being validated by the university in question. Maybe the college broke away during the troubled times and recently got itself re-absorbed? Or maybe it was always an independent institution, totally separate from the muggle university. Today the Ministry could have liased with the muggle authorities to bring it under the auspices of one of the collegiate universities in much the same way as many of the once independent colleges at the University of London are now part of one larg umbrella organization - and yet still often functionally independent. Pip again - The complete separation of the WW from the Muggle world argues that the times preceding the split must have been deeply traumatic. I can't really see Oxbridge protecting a college full of witches and warlocks during the 16th and 17th century witch hunts. St Andrews would have been even worse, as the witch hunts in Scotland were more virulent than in England. So it's possible that wizards *did* have their post Hogwarts college once, and lost it in the witch hunts before the split. Post split, with relatively small numbers needing further wizarding education, they may have found that an apprentice style 'personal tutor' to guide students' further study was actually all they needed. Me again - *shrugs* I can't really argue with that other than to suggest that it could have been later resurrected. K From jdm267 at psu.edu Sun Mar 16 19:35:10 2003 From: jdm267 at psu.edu (jsherman6) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 19:35:10 -0000 Subject: Krum the transfer student? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53850 Krum often indicated that he enjoyed staying at Hogwarts. I think it is quite possible that Krum will transfer to Hogwarts for his last year(s) of school. However, this seems to present a few problems. What house would he be sorted into? I think that it would be a toss up between Slytherin and Gryffindor. No matter what house he was sorted into, he would definitly become their lead seeker. It would be great to see Malfoy benched on the Quidditch field. And it would be an excellent matchup between Harry and Krum (Krum of course still a much better seeker). Though, Krum in Gryffindor would present some interesting conflicts, like Harry's Quidditch position, and the Ron-Hermione-Krum love triangle. Any more thoughts on Krum at Hogwarts? -jack- From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 16 22:08:37 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 14:08:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Krum the transfer student? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030316220837.27794.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53851 --- jsherman6 wrote: > Krum often indicated that he enjoyed staying at > Hogwarts. I think > it is quite possible that Krum will transfer to > Hogwarts for his > last year(s) of school. > > I believe that GoF was his last year of school. He was, after all at least 17, which means he was more likely in 7th year than 6th. I don't remember if it was directly stated, but I believe he's finished his schooling. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Mar 16 10:10:54 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 10:10:54 -0000 Subject: How hard would it be. . .(was: Re: who is gonna die?) In-Reply-To: <138.1ca62684.2ba4d7d6@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53852 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, artsylynda at a... wrote: > Risti: > > > Voldemort knows he can't touch > > Harry when he's with his relatives... So let's get rid of the > > relatives. Back in that fateful Oprah interview that kid did say > > that JKR told him something about the wizarding world mixing with the > > muggle world because of Voldemort. You want to talk about > > character's out living their plot purposes? It's pretty obvious that > > with Voldemort back in town, he won't wait all patient like for Harry > > to have a miserable summer off from adventure. Lynda: > I really like your reasoning here, and it works well from many aspects. > Harry will be "set adrift" without the protection he had from those relatives > (whatever protection they were for him). The people who care about Harry > will feel badly that he's lost his last living relatives and all they ever > said or thought about those people were bad things. Harry will have to face > the fact that he resented them, even hated them, all those years, and > probably deservedly so -- but since Harry is such a decent person at heart, > he will probably feel guilty for not having done a better job of getting > along with them (despite the fact there was no way on Earth he COULD get > along with them, and he realizes that too -- an endless circle of frustration > and guilt). The flaw in this analysis is that they aren't fans of Harry's. Well, though "a fan of Harry's will die" - well, the 'fan' won't be a Dursley, but that doesn't mean they can't die as "something surprising about Dursleys". Harry finding kind emotions upon their death would be a surprise, and he also might find something magical that was his Mom's (a seven-lock trunk, including letters from Seer! Lily to her son, Sirius & Dumbledore, as well as a plan to get Sirius free! - for some reason I've imagined Dursleys having it in a place where Harry's not allowed (attic) or something else). Also, there's probably going to be quite a *lot* of dying in OOP, but I doubt Sirius or Ron - but what about Hermione? She *has* been the one helping Harry to learn, but if Sirius gets free, he'll do that. Or McGonagall - she might get close to Harry and die. Or Dobby, who gives his life for Harry. (and Voldemort won't repeat his error!) -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Mar 16 17:06:24 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 17:06:24 -0000 Subject: Lily's protection (Was: Harry as 'resilient' child abuse survivor) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53853 Marina: > But why would Lily feel the need to give Harry protection against > the Dursley's? Unlike the rest of the WW, she knew Sirius wasn't > her Secret-Keeper, and she didn't know he was going to get framed > and end up in Azkaban. According to Sirius himself, James and Lily > had wanted him to take care of Harry if anything happened to them. > So as far as Lily knew, if Harry somehow survived Voldemort's > attack, he'd end up being raised by his loving godfather, so no > extra protection against abusive adults would be necessary. My theory on that is that Lily was true Seer. After the Keeper-switch- trick, she Saw that Peter would betray them, that Sirius would be accused and only ones left would be Dursleys! Only just too late to change anything, only just early enough to prepare herself and Harry for it. She gives Harry a blessing that protects him against Dursley-abuse before Voldemort got there, and finishes Harry-protection by sacrifising herself... because she *knew* that would save Harry, having had a vision about her own death. All this talk about Harry having Lily's eyes -- and Harry *did* happen to see Buckbeak flying free - a *true* vision, not to mention his past/present-dreams, as well as the cryptic ones that show future and act as a warning... -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Mar 16 17:17:08 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 17:17:08 -0000 Subject: Get-away? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030315140333.00970540@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53854 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, GulPlum wrote: > finwitch wrote: > The charge of favouritism still stands. Malfoy probably wasn't punished > because no teacher ever saw him in the air during the lesson. > > Nevertheless, Harry *did* show exceptional natural talent and it would've > been objectively rather silly for McGonagall not to have recognised it by > giving him a place on the team. She does, however, leave Harry with the > words that punishment will be reinstated if he doesn't train properly. > I still think that McGonagall guessed about the Remembrall, but if she allowed Ron to confirm it, Slytherins would deny it. Despite of having broken the rules, Harry still did the right thing in standing up for Neville. It wasn't favoritism - just giving a conditional penalty to first- timer, who just happened to also show talent. And McGonagall won't give a mind to noble reasons, as she tells Malfoy within Harry's hearing: "As noble as your motives may be, you still..." - at least, noble reason is no excuse to avoid detention in her book. And well - she gave her a regular extra duty of hard flying practise. Harry just happens to like it... -- Finwitch From realbadger at earthlink.net Sun Mar 16 22:01:45 2003 From: realbadger at earthlink.net (Badger) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 22:01:45 -0000 Subject: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? In-Reply-To: <7115043702.20030315204539@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53855 Message 53840 Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:45:39 -0800 From: Dave Hardenbrook Subject: Re: Re: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? >>>>Thursday, March 6, 2003, 11:00:27 AM, drtruman wrote: Actually, it still doesn't dispel my most basic question, which comes back to temporal displacement. Doesn't Harry1 *have* to cast a successful Patronus in order to be able to return later (as Harry2)? Irrespective of what Harry2 then does or doesn't do when he returns, if *something* hasn't otherwise saved Harry from the dementors, how can he come back from the future? << This has come up many times before on the list, namely because it remains one of the most mind-bending problems in the series. Harry has to go back in time to save himself, in order to go back in time to save himself! It other words, we're stuck with an apparently unresolvable temporal paradox in which two events separated in time are each other's cause and effect. The only two viable resolutions seem to be that either (A) Everything in the Potterverse is predestined, which undermines the series' recurring theme of the importance of our choosing our own actions; or (B) The Harry that first saves -- er -- "our" Harry is actually from another, parallel universe, which raises the question of where did *he* come from? >> Having been a life-long fan of time travel stories, theories, paradoxes, etc., I hold that time travel exists primarily for the participant. This means that Harry2&Hrm2 (technically) are able to alter anything they choose to change as in their own past, that change has already taken place (by the future selves). That is how a wizard can kill his own past self, as Hermione warns (not just being able to kill one's future self). In one of the best time-travel stories, the now tough to find David Gerrold novel "The Man Who Folded Himself" ("MWFH") echoes best my theories: that should the time traveller alter something in his past that did not actually take place in his past, he is therefore creating a new alternate timeline. He meets varied versions of himself, even "past selves" he knows he did not do, so they were from alternate timelines. He realizes if he were to go back and strangle his infant self in his crib, then he would still exist, but only in an alternate timeline in which "he" had never existed/grown up (and "merely" a dead baby in his arms). The narrator edits and re- edits various histories to the point he can barely remember the original version. The novel (almost more of a novella) shows up now and then on eBay; I'm pretty sure that officially it is out of print. There is also what is called the Holographic Universe theory, well explained by the late Michael Talbot in his book "Holographic Universe." In quantum theory, if one considers the universe (reality and/or our perception[s] thereof), as a "liquid hologram," just as one can take a glass-plate hologram, snap it in two and instead of two halfs of a hologram, have two *full/complete* holograms (just different perspectives), one can thereeby access various aspects of the hologram that is reality, "proving" clairvoyance, time travel, etc. I may have to get myself another copy; mine is deep in storage. Its ISBN is 0060922583 and it is available at alldirect.com for all of $12.13 ($8.68 w/$3.45 S&H). If (our) Harry2 (the one we follow in the book) did not conjure properly the Prongs Patronus, and watched himself be destroyed by the Dementor, he would therefore be considered "outside the time/space envelope," his having returned from an *alternate future*, in which this alternate past (from his perspective) was "messed" up (to put it delicately [bg]). He would also still be able to remain and continue schooling, being only a few hours older than his current (destroyed) self. Kind of a creepy way of looking at it, but that's time travel. One has the closed loop theory (such as in PoA) and the alternate time-line theory ("MWFH," "Back to the Future II," etc.). One of my favourite time travel aspects is the Uncreated Object, such as best illustrated in the excellent movie "Somewhere In Time." The watch shows up for the first time in 1910 or whenever, brought back in time by Christopher Reeve. After there for a while he "gets distracted" (by the modern day penny) and he is pulled back into his present, Jane Seymour's future. The watch remains in the past in Seymour's possession. She eventually realizes her lover was from the future: she ages and when she discovers him as a playwrite, she visits him, gives him the watch and asks him to "Come back to me." He researches, and (with the watch) manages to project himself to his past, her present. The watch itself was Never Created. It merely exists, and for a finite period of time. The watch exists only during that period of decades, from when it first appears with him *IN* the past to when he brings it from the present *TO* the past. Time travel. Gotta love it. << I think someone should make this a fanfic challenge. Someone finally wrote a novel to resolve the 100-year old paradox of how the Tin Woodman and his severed flesh-and-blood head can co-exist as sentient beings; why not someone try to write a fanfic to resolve the "closed timelike loop" paradox of Harry, the time-turner, and the patronus? (And hopefully in much less than 100 years!) >> (While I'm impressed I'm not the only one [in this list] to have read Baum's 19 Oz books [g]), I recall the flesh/blood head in the cupboard as being alive but not really aware that he "is" an/the original aspect of Nick Chopper's meat self. To what novel do you refer? realbadger, a loyal Hufflepuff geoffreygould.notlong.com From carrie525 at mybluelight.com Sun Mar 16 22:27:26 2003 From: carrie525 at mybluelight.com (Carrie S) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 14:27:26 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Krum the transfer student? References: Message-ID: <000d01c2ec0b$3a9601e0$c0195142@net> No: HPFGUIDX 53856 I remember thinking Krum would transfer also. Personally, I would be hard place him in a house, but for the story's sake I prefer Slytherin. On one hand Slytherin....there's no need to upset Harry's position on the Q team. Also, and I like this part, if he has a relationship of sorts with Hermione, it sort of broadens her horizons a little. She could end up being a "bridge" between the two groups of kids. It could get her involved with a group of "darker" characters. If he's in Griffindor, it's still okay. He will not be the smallest player, could easily be captain and take another position on the team. If it would even be fair to have a professional player on a school team? I did like his character and we'd see more of it if he was in Griffindor. Also, it was mentioned here about a week ago that somehow new students would have to be introduced (sorry I don't remember who). Moving some of the students from Durmstrang could give us a new influx of characters. How about it ends up being Krum that dies in GoF?? I have thought about that as well. Carrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Mar 16 22:59:30 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 22:59:30 -0000 Subject: Krum the transfer student? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53857 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jsherman6" wrote: > Krum ... enjoyed staying at Hogwarts. I think ... Krum will transfer > to Hogwarts.... > > ... What house would he be sorted into? I think... a toss up between > Slytherin and Gryffindor. No matter what house... , he would > ... become ... lead seeker. > > ... great to see Malfoy benched.... And ... an excellent > matchup between Harry and Krum.... Though, Krum in Gryffindor > would present some interesting conflicts, like Harry's Quidditch > position, and the Ron-Hermione-Krum love triangle. > > Any more thoughts on Krum at Hogwarts? > > -jack- bboy_mn: I see this happening too, but coming up with a solid reason and method is more difficult. Krum probably was in his last year at Drumstrang. But there was no headmaster at the end of the year, perhaps there was no one to certify his completion. Or maybe Krum felt the education at Drumstrang wasn't up to par, so he decided to ask Dumbledore's permission to repeat his last year. Maybe he will come as a graduate student with the intent of specializing in a particular area of magical study, studying under one of the Hogwart's teachers because they are very highly regarded in this area; Flintwick-charms, McGonnagall-Tranfiguation, Snape-potions. Then again, he may just offer to join Dumbledore's fight against Voldemort. The main point here is that there are some reasonable and logical circumstance under which he might return. House- That's a hard one. Would they even sort him, or would they just assign him an available bed? If he is in Slytherin, that certainly creates some interesting story lines. Since Krum and Harry get along, Krum might tell Draco to back off. Also, right now Draco is sort of the king of Slytherins even though he is an underclassmen. He is sort of like the Harry of Slytherin's. Draco commands the center of attention of all those around him including upperclassmen (speculation). But if Krum is in Slytherin, Draco get demoted to prince if he is luck, otherwise, relative to Slytherin attention, he falls into the shadows; just another kid in school. That's not a position Draco would like, and I can see that creating all kinds of interesting conflicts internal to Slytherin, with the school in general, and with Harry and Gryffindor. If he is in Gryffindor, I think you pointed out the most obvious conflict the Ron-Hermione-Krum love triangle. But it also makes the general daily dynamics of Harry/Ron/Hermione's relationship complicated. In some ways, Krum could re-enforce the group, but in other way, he could dilute the trio's relationship with each other. Quidditch- Krum played professional Quidditch, or I assume it was professional. Once someone competes on a professional team, they usually aren't allowed back into amateur ranks. Of course, I have no way of knowing if that rule carries over into the wizard world. I see Krum entering Hogwarts house neutral; no house allegiance then acting as the Gryffindor reserve teams trainer or coach. I have no foundation for that other than knowing that Gryffindor needs to start working on a reserve team, and that I think Krum will be there. I could handle it if Krum was the Slytherin Seeker. That might be interesting, Harry and Krum seem to like and respect each other off the Quidditch pitch, but they would have to show no mercy when it came to playing the game. I don't think I could handle it if Krum was on the Gryffindor team in any player position. Mainly because I want Ron to become the new Keeper. An extention of that desire, is that in year 6, Ron becomes the captain of the team. My instinct tells me that Krum is going to be there, but I can only guess how and why. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From catlady at wicca.net Sun Mar 16 23:15:54 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 23:15:54 -0000 Subject: "Professor" / Krum / Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53858 Pip!squeak wrote: << Hagrid, Lockhart and Moody/Crouch aren't called by the title 'Professor'. The people who are (Snape, Flitwick, McGonagall, Sprout) do all seem to manage well planned, professional teaching. >> Canon (CoS): Hagrid appeared at once, looking very grumpy, but his expression brightened when he saw who it was. "Bin wonderin' when you'd come ter see me - come in, come in - thought you mighta bin Professor Lockhart back again -" "And you, Potter, will be helping Professor Lockhart answer his fan mail," said Professor McGonagall. I think the title of "Professor" is purely a politeness bestowed by the school at which he/she is teaching. Remus's luggage's nametag would seem to mean that he had once had a teaching job before, but it appears to be canon that he never had a *job* before, therefore rationalization is needed. Here is a collection of non-original suggestions: 1) He once was hired for a teaching job, excitedly bought luggage for it, then was fired instantly that the school found out about his condition. 2) He magically labelled the luggage for the Hogwarts job but new label came out worn and old-looking because he was so weary and hungry, or because the luggage was so old and it wanted to match. 3) The luggage and its label were inherited from his father, also a teacher. 4) The luggage and its label were a gift (school-leaving gift, birthday of seventh year gift, whatever) from his school friends, who teasingly called him Professor because he lectured them in a Hermione-ish way. << But you don't need a college to go beyond NEWT's. You just need a tutor, who can guide your course of study. You don't need to attend a lecture if you have a mentor who will tell you which books you need to study, what spells or potions you need to attempt, who is prepared to set assignments and give you advice on how well you completed them. >> Thank you for your beautiful description (just change "tutor" and "mentor" to "master") and support of my theory that, in the Potterverse, academic subjects have guilds which do not have the government looking over their shoulders at the degrees they give, just as non-academic subjects do. Btw, the Muggleverse trade guilds called themselves "collegia" when speaking Latin. << You don't even need to have a final exam as such. The medieval system was that an apprentice produced a 'masterpiece' at the end of their apprenticeship. A masterpiece was a piece of work so complex that it was obvious the apprentice had mastered their craft. >> I assume that in academic guilds, the *master* sets the apprentice an exam before promoting himer to journeyman, and the *guild* sets the journeyman an exam before allowing him/er to submit a masterpiece, and that the masterpiece of a scholar is probably a dissertation ... I have young Severus writing a dissertation on the uses of boomslang skin, and the Potion-makers' Guild having an eternal conflict between the applied potion makers (such as apothecaries) who complain that they pay all the money but get none of the glory and the theoretical potion makers (scholars, academics) who whine that no one *deserves* to be a Master who only brewed an immensely difficult potion rather than inventing one... Also, thanks for the plot bunny about the horrific slaughter of Merlin College at Oxford... Kathryn Cawte wrote: << But since Hogwarts is the only wizarding school in Britain, if teachers were trained in this way [as apprentices or student teachers] I would have thought we'd have seen it by now. >> I don't think the wizards have a profession of secondary school teaching. I think it's like Pip said: "it seems to be very much along the lines of 'you know a lot about this subject, come and teach it.' and seeming to know a lot about this subject doesn't necessarily mean being declared a Master by some Guild ... a person could learn in some other way and display hiser knowledge by writing many books (Lockhart) or having been a successful Auror (real!Moody). However, a person who takes a job as a Hogwarts teacher would be well advised to learn how to teach, and one way would be for a journeymen to teach some classes to his master's apprentices, and another way would be to student-teach a class offered to the general public through a Museum or Library ... we have canon that there is a Museum of Quidditch, but in my version of the Potterverse, the Big Museum is the Museum of Magic. << To me this implies some kind of non-apprentice style training, since the term 'Professor' is a term only used officially by univrsities whereas gulds use a system of 'apprentices', 'journeymen' and 'masters'. But I may be reading far too much into it. >> As I said above, I think that in the Potterverse, "Professor" is a term only used officially by Hogwarts. << That's actually the sort of thing I was envisaging when I said a college. More the sort of teaching associated with postgraduate courses. While not possible in the muggle world at a university the small number of wizarding students would make it a lot more realistic. Although I could see certain tutors holding larger tutorials if they were well-renowned. >> In my view, the way that, for example, the Potions Guild is different than a Potions College (despite being both being named Collegium) is that individual masters accept apprentices and train them, and employ or mentor journeymen, however they want to, not as employees of the Guild. But I do imagine each Guild owning a Guild Hall which includes a grand auditorium, or at least a grand banquet hall that can be set up as an auditorium, where respected Masters give lectures for the general public and apprentices are ordered to attend by their Masters. Like the public lectures at the Universities around here, some are intended for mediocre intellects with no prior knowledge and some assume so much prior knowledge that only grad students in that subject understand well enough to ask questions.... Jack Sherman wrote: << Krum often indicated that he enjoyed staying at Hogwarts. I think it is quite possible that Krum will transfer to Hogwarts for his last year(s) of school. However, this seems to present a few problems. What house would he be sorted into? I think that it would be a toss up between Slytherin and Gryffindor. No matter what house he was sorted into, he would definitly become their lead seeker. >> I feel sure that GoF was Krum's final year of school, so he will not come to Hogwarts as a transfer student. He may come as some kind of student teacher, an assistant to Madam Hooch, or just an independent scholar with Dumbledore's permission to live in the Castle (there are PLENTY of rooms) and hang around awhile. Even if he did come as a transfer student, I suspect that at his age, he would be treated like an independent scholar ... given his own quarters instead of living in a House, dining at Head Table rather than a House table, attending whatever classes he needed that fitted into his schedule but mostly doing independent study perhaps under the guidance of one of the professors ... therefore NO NEED to Sort him. Therefore, no House to pressure him to lead their Quidditch team even tho' he would surely find school Quidditch kind of boring after playing at World Class. Carrie S wrote: << How about it ends up being Krum that dies in GoF?? I have thought about that as well. >> When I read GoF, I liked Krum. When he Crucio'ed Cedric, I yelped in dismay at him being a bad guy after all. Then when it was all explained, Krum was a good guy after all, I became certain that JKR will kill him. Introduce this nice guy, fix him up with Hermioen ... no happy-ever-afters allowed around here! He must die in the War. Sniffle. From rpquate at earthlink.net Mon Mar 17 00:59:06 2003 From: rpquate at earthlink.net (redandgoldlion) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 00:59:06 -0000 Subject: Harry's divination exam (was: Re: Lily's protection) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53859 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: >... > All this talk about Harry having Lily's eyes -- and Harry *did* > happen to see Buckbeak flying free - a *true* vision, not to mention > his past/present-dreams, as well as the cryptic ones that show future > and act as a warning... > > -- Finwitch I was just wondering about your comment that Harry saw Buckbeak fly free. I know he told Trelawney he saw that, but I've always had the impression that he at least thought he made it up. Doesn't he say something to the effect of remembering that Ron had made up his "prediction" when he doesn't see anything? And then he goes on to tell his "prediction." Personally, I *do* feel he really "saw" it, but he just assumed he was making it up. I suppose he could have truly made it up as well; you know, saying that to sort of comfort himself or even to burst Trelawney's little bubble of excitement she gets when she *sees* something terrible happening. ;-) Please correct me if I'm way off base. Any more thoughts? ~redandgoldlion~ From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Mon Mar 17 01:28:09 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 01:28:09 -0000 Subject: Krum the transfer student? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53860 jack wrote: > > Krum ... enjoyed staying at Hogwarts. I think ... Krum will transfer > > to Hogwarts.... > bboy_mn wrote: > > Krum probably was in his last year at Drumstrang. But there was no > headmaster at the end of the year, perhaps there was no one to certify > his completion. Or maybe Krum felt the education at Drumstrang wasn't > up to par, so he decided to ask Dumbledore's permission to repeat his > last year. Maybe he will come as a graduate student with the intent of > specializing in a particular area of magical study, studying under one > of the Hogwart's teachers because they are very highly regarded in > this area; Flintwick-charms, McGonnagall-Tranfiguation, Snape- potions. > Then again, he may just offer to join Dumbledore's fight against > Voldemort. > > The main point here is that there are some reasonable and logical > circumstance under which he might return. Something else to consider: "'Every guest in this hall,' Dumbledore said, and his eyes lingered upon the Durmstrang students, 'will be welcomed back here at any time, should they wish to come,'" GoF US Hardcover, page 723. This makes me think that Krum doesn't need a specific student or staff status in order to visit Hogwarts, and I could even see him visiting so much that he might as well be living there or even working something out with Dumbledore so that he actually lives there. His reasons for visiting could be V-related (hiding out or spying), education, Hermione, escaping the professional Quidditch world... but I *definitely* think it would be interesting for him to be back. (This idea also keeps him from being sorted into a specific house - which keeps him a bit more mysterious. Is he good? Is he evil? Being sorted into either Slytherin or Gryffindor would give us - and the WW - clues to help answer this question.) Semi-related thought: I have some minor issues with the promoted house-loyatly. Themes in the books so often dwell on people being more important than blood/status, etc., and that a person's choices are the true proof of their character. With that in mind, what should be made of the sorting hat? Yes, it looks deep within a person and chooses a house, but can a person not make choices that change who they are and what they will become? (Could a meek hufflepuff, after some tragic experience, decide that nice guys finish last and become unbearably ambitious?) I suppose it could be noted that the sorting hat may have an awareness of this change, and would sort the person accordingly... but it still feels too close to predestination for my tastes. More related to my initial point, Dumbledore also notes that the WW/ students at the feast are "as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided," (GoF US Hardcover, page 723), an idea which, to me, goes against the entire concept of having different houses. The students within the house are united (within that house), but the fierce competition between Gryffindor and Slytherin now feels foreshadowingly problematic. - Nobody's Rib From editor at texas.net Mon Mar 17 02:11:35 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 20:11:35 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily's protection (Was: Harry as 'resilient' child abuse survivor) References: Message-ID: <000f01c2ec2a$89e89d60$3d6463d1@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53861 Finwitch said: > All this talk about Harry having Lily's eyes -- and Harry *did* > happen to see Buckbeak flying free - When? Chapter, page? He made up some stuff for Trelawney's final, but he was making it up, not experiencing a vision. Am I forgetting some critical scene where Harry has a vision? ~Amanda From grace701 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 17 03:53:24 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 03:53:24 -0000 Subject: Beginning of OotP (Re: How hard would it be..) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030316010509.00970e60@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53862 GulPlum wrote: >Absolutely. As may people have suggested, now that he's back, >Voldemort isn't going to wait until 1st September to make his >presence felt. I for one fully expect the "meat" of the story to >start very quickly, even while Harry is still at the Dursleys'. >However, I don't expect much to have happened between the return >from Hogwarts at the end of the fourth year at the beginning of July >(the third task was on the 24th June, and there's a reference to the >school year ending two weeks later), and Harry's birthday. >The first words of GoF's last chapter are "When he looked back, even a month later...".This would indicate that JKR considers Harry's eye- >view of that month to have been covered, so the narrative of OotP >won't start before 24th July (if we take "month" literally). Of >course, this doesn't mean that something very important hasn't >happened during that month (or at least the two weeks since Harry's >return to the Dursleys) - it's just that Harry doesn't know it yet. >As I said at the top, I don't expect Voldemort to be waiting >patiently, so the very first page of the book, even before Harry's >birthday (I assume that the first or second chapter will focus on >31st July as usual) could feature some dangerous omen... >And of course there's the issue of that boy lying in the flower bed... Whoa! Gul! I had not realized at all that a month had past by and it was July 24. Thanks for showing that to me. Now I got confused, as always, and thought how is it that they're still in school in July. So I went back and re-read the first few lines and JKR writes three sentences into the first paragraph that of the last chapter in GoF: "The recollections he did have were very painful. The worst, perhaps, was the meeting with the Diggory's that took place the following morning." Then in the next "section": "Harry returned to Gryffindor Tower the following evening." Following meaning means that night of the following morning. Am I right? If this is the case, then he's been recalling everything all along. Which makes the beginning of OoTP much more intersting than before (to me that is). It starts that he is lying on a flower bed recalling the last chapter of GoF. He'll most likely get up after recalling all of this and continue his day. I agree with a lot of people on the board who'd see that a completely different beginning would be an interesting twist. I like the idea that he may have to defend the Dursleys. They may not be his biggest fans, but let's consider, for some miracle, things become better between them and then Harry would feel even more guilty if they die later on in the book. I'd, unfortunately, have to suggest that something may happen to Hermione. She is muggle born after all and if, as Mattie Stepanek hinted on the Oprah show, that muggles will be involved why not start by attacking the Grangers. Leaving Hermione an orphan and distressed that she cannot even be her regular bossy/studious self. Which in turn will jeopardize her position as prefect. Her whole world will come crumbling down and in a way only Harry will be able to understand what's she's feeling because he's been through it. Someone mentioned before an attack on the Hogwarts train. Sounds good to me. Also, the book I'm reading, Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter, suggest maybe an attack on the horseless carriages because they seem vulnerable. You never know.... Greicy From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Mon Mar 17 04:26:47 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jon) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 04:26:47 -0000 Subject: An odd musing about Harry's attitude Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53863 I've been rereading the books (again!), and a something struck me as I read POA. Harry's treatment of authority figures he doesn't like. I've noticed that if Harry doesn't like a person who is in authority, he shows complete disrespect to them; this despite any qualifications they may have or any reasons that they SHOULD be respected. I can think of two examples off the top of my head: The Dursleys, and Snape. OK, so I know Dursleys are foolish, nasty jerks barely one step up from Child Abuse charges, and that Snape is an annoying, bullying git who should be boiled in his own potions (sorry about that, I started having some fun with the descriptions for a moment... ;-)), but they are still in authority over him, and he ought to treat them with SOME respect. Snape is a teacher and a learned (possibly very much so) man, and he has SAVED HARRY'S LIFE. The Dursleys may have treated Harry badly, but they did take him in; had he gone to Marge, he'd have been "straight off to an orphanage" (or something like that). Harry, however, repeatedly disrespects and insults the Dursleys (in earshot and out), and shows nearly as much loathing toward Snape as Snape shows toward him. Now, maybe I was brought up oddly, but I distinctly remember my parents drilling "respect your elders" into me for as long as I can remember. Harry's had almost the opposite lesson, it seems; from his actions, it looks like he learned "respect those elders who are nice to you and whom you like." It's been getting even worse; in GoF, not only does Harry not obey the diet the Dursleys are on, but he brazenly insults Uncle Vernon (sorry about the lack of specific examples, but my books seem to have disapparated somewhere...) I don't remember what point I was going to make about this; but it seems interesting. Please discuss - I want 3 feet of parchment by Tuesday. Hobbit-guy (who, despite his defence of the characters, dispises the Dursleys almost as much as he does school essays) From grace701 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 17 04:35:18 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 04:35:18 -0000 Subject: Lily lives in Harry (was: Dobby/ Betrayal/ Evil!Voldemort/ Harry as 'resilient' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53864 Catlady wrote: > Here is my oft-repeated theory: I think Lily was able, with her > magic, to put an image of herself in her baby's mind, that would be > like an 'imaginary mum' (by analogy with 'imaginary friend') who > would cuddle Harry and tell him that he's a good kid who doesn't > deserve Dursley abuse and tell him about how decent people behave, > thus being that one caring adult ("example of goodness" in previous > paragraph) said to be necessary to even a 'resilient' child's > survival of serious abuse... I kind of think Lily used her last > magic to put this image in his head intentionally, instead of using > her last magic in one last attempt to escape Voldemort. That is the > heroic self-sacrifce that canon credits her, accepting her own > death because it was more important to her to give this protection > (from abusive Dursleys) of her love. I don't know why she would do > that if she really believed that he would be dead seconds after she > was, so I am left sympathetic to the theories that Harry survived > AK because of some magic that had been done on him (presumably by > Lily) or that he had been born with. > When Harry resisted the Imperius Curse, the Curse's Moody-voice in > his head told him to jump up on the desk, and "another voice had > awoken in the back of his brain. Stupid to do, really, said the > voice." I believe that that other voice is what's left of the > image-Lily after all these years; she doesn't appear often, she > appears as Harry's voice instead of her own, but she still is > caring for Harry -- and still has free will. > In addition, so far we've always seen Harry wondering and trying to > find out about his father, and not about his mother. Some say > that's a plot device because JKR is saving some big surprise about > Lily, and some say it's normal because Harry is 11 to 14 so far, > puberty and adolescence, and much more concerned about a male image > to identify with. But *I* say that he doesn't search so much for > Lily because, unknown to himself, he already has her with him. I had a little theory, but I hadn't really wanted to post it, that perhaps since JKR repeats consistently that Harry has his mother's eyes, it is because he will see through her what happened that night she and James died. Since you say she lives in him, now this idea seems to make more sense to me. Perhaps, he may even feel what she felt that night and know what she was thinking in terms of what she had to do to protect Harry and magic she had to conjure up to do so. I can't agree with the your opinion on why he doesn't search for Lily because she is in him. She maybe in him and he may feel the love she has for him. BUT he (and so do we) need to know more about her background: 1) Who were Lily's friends in Hogwarts (at least I'd like to know who she hung out with)? 2) What kind of personality did she have? Hermione's? ;) 3) Is she an orphan? 4) Are her parents and Petunia squibs? 5) Is she a descendant of any Founding member of Hogwarts? 6) Did Lily "hate" Petunia as Petunia "hated" her? etc... She's more of a mystery than James is only because we haven't met anyone close to her. James had "3" bestfriends: Sirius, Lupin and Pettigrew and they (Sirius and Lupin) *never* speak of Lily and James. And you know what I'm getting pretty tired of that. How can they not give Harry insight on his own parents? No matter how horrible the thought maybe for them to recall a lost a friend, at least give Harry the opportunity to get to know his parents. I find that to be pretty selfish, but then again Sirius is on the run and Lupin was a teacher so I'm sure he didn't want personal feelings to get in the way of a teacher-student relationship. Thank God OoTP is coming out. I hope some Lily questions will be answered. Greicy From grace701 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 17 04:43:18 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 04:43:18 -0000 Subject: Bill Weasley and returning characters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53865 Mr. Ed wrote: >I think it's clear that Bill was promoted from minor to major >character during GoF. I saw somebody else write about his future >relationship (or not) with Fleur, but to me, Bill's most important >line in GoF was to ask Harry whether or not Sir Cadogan was still >around! I was disappointed the brave and noble knight didn't put in >a cameo in GoF, given that mention, but it makes me hopeful for a >return soon. >Mr. Ed (who wonders if anybody else has noticed that Norris spelled >backwards can be read as "Sir Ron") I was disappointed, too, to not see Sir Cadogan. I think he was a great comic relief in PoA. I *love* his character as well as Pig. When I re-read GoF, I didn't realize that his hyperness could be so amusing. I am hoping to see some kind of return of Lockhart because I think that he, too, would bring some comic relief. As Harry says, I'm sure we'll be needing some laughs. (I'm sure there are more characters I can't think of). Speaking of laughs wouldn't it be nice of boyish Dumbledore to lighten up with year with yet another ball. Or perhaps a talent show? Dance contest? I'm not only expecting the death of another character, but also something somewhat out of the ordinary in a time of tormoil. Just keep peoples mind of the big bad witch, oops I mean Dark Lord. Greicy, who did not notice that Norris's name backwards Sir Ron (interesting) From grace701 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 17 04:59:39 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 04:59:39 -0000 Subject: Lily's protection (Was: Harry as 'resilient' child abuse survivor) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53866 finwitch wrote: >My theory on that is that Lily was true Seer. After the Keeper- >switch- trick, she Saw that Peter would betray them, that Sirius would be accused and only ones left would be Dursleys! >Only just too late to change anything, only just early enough to >prepare herself and Harry for it. She gives Harry a blessing that >protects him against Dursley-abuse before Voldemort got there, and >finishes Harry-protection by sacrifising herself... because she >*knew* that would save Harry, having had a vision about her own >death. >All this talk about Harry having Lily's eyes -- and Harry *did* >happen to see Buckbeak flying free - a *true* vision, not to >mention his past/present-dreams, as well as the cryptic ones that >show future and act as a warning... Uuh I like your theory very much, although most will argue that he only saw a vision of Buckbeak because he guessed. What people should take into consideration is that he did guess, but he guessed *correctly*. It could be that he is developing a skill he's inherited, but obviously doesn't know of yet, so JKR is interpreting it as such. JKR's letting some of us think that he isn't a Seer and others that he is because her writing of this situation is very vague, so therefore we are left in the dust (which is what she loves to do). Greicy, who believes *Harry and Ron* are Seers, poor Hermione she's left out again. PS: Wouldn't it be ironic Hermione is one, too, being that she hates Divination. ;) From mdemeran at hotmail.com Mon Mar 17 05:13:20 2003 From: mdemeran at hotmail.com (Meg Demeranville) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 23:13:20 -0600 Subject: TBAY: Failure (WAS Harry's Failures (WAS Harry as Alexander the Great)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004201c2ec43$ed7f1d90$6501a8c0@MFD> No: HPFGUIDX 53867 Waking with a start, Meg reached automatically to her right for the phone. Finding only a wall and realizing there was no phone ringing, Meg rolled over to find her bedside lamp. "What was that?" she mumbled to herself, rubbing her fists in her eyes against the sudden change in light and trying desperately to orient herself. Perking up her ears, she heard the words "Harry.failure.bang" and realized she must be at the Safe House. Fully awake at this point, she yawned and pointed her scalpel at the air duct. Suddenly the words became clearer and more distinct. Melody was discussing failure and it sounded like Cindy was arguing the Bang factor. Gather her purple fleece blanket around her, Meg padded down the hall towards Melody's room to add her two cents. Reaching Melody's room, she paused. Did she really want to barge into Melody's room late at night? Did she want to discuss failure with Captain Cindy? Screwing up all the courage she could muster, she knocked on the door. "Mel, are you awake?" Meg said quietly. Hearing a muffled "Yeah, come in," Meg opened the door and paused. Melody was in her bed squished to one side while Captain Cindy monopolized the rest of the bed. There was a sleeping bag on the floor where a boy lay, obviously starting to wake up because of the ruckus. Meg wondered briefly why there was a boy sleeping on Melody's floor, but decided to wait a while before asking. "Who's there?" demanded Captain Cindy, blinking in the light at the person in the doorway. Looking down, Meg realized how strange she looked. Pink striped socks, green scrub pants, a t-shirt reading MD Cheerleading, a messy pony-tail from which half of her hair was escaping and wrapped in a purple blanket did not exactly portray the confident student Meg pretended to be. "It's Meg. I heard you guys talking about failure and well, since it's a topic I am so familiar with lately, I thought I would weigh in." Meg said as she settled on the floor by Melody's bed. Pointing toward the guy in the sleeping bag, she asked Melody, "So we do co-ed slumber parties now at the Safe House? You going to introduce me or what?" Melody sighed as she realized she was not going to get any more sleep. "Meg, that's my brother John. John, meet Meg. Now Meg, what are your thoughts?" "Well Melody, you were talking about Harry and failure." Meg reached in her back pocket and extracted a small tape recorder. Pressing a button, she continued, "I believe you said, 'He does have a knack for survival, but at some point he will fail. And if he never does, then he is not human at all.' With a click, Meg turned the tape recorder off. "I think John started my point, assuming that he was the male voice I heard, but I will come back to that. Later you continued with that idea." With a click, Meg restarted her tape recorder. 'The key is though, Harry needs...no, must...no, will fail eventually. He is not prince charming of the wizard world. He is a boy.' Meg clicked the tape recorder off. "Melody, have you ever considered that he doesn't have to truly fail? He only needs to feel that he has failed. Think about it. When Cedric died, he blamed himself. When the dementors came to the game and he fell off his broom, he blamed himself for the lost game. Whenever something bad happens, he assumes that he is responsible for the failure." Meg noticed Melody's confused look and went on, "Look at how he is treated at the Dursleys. For ten years he was treated like everything he did was wrong. Now he is placed in a world that idolizes him, that doesn't think he did wrong automatically. It's like the sorting hat said. He has a strong wish to prove himself, to live up to the expectations. He doesn't have to fail. He just has to disappoint someone, his mentor." Meg smiled as she noticed the recognition on Melody's face. "Yes, that's right. All Dumbledore has to say is 'Harry, I am disappointed in you' and it's over. Harry will feel like a failure. And that would be more devastating to Harry than actually failing at anything else." "Right now, Harry is thriving on being told he did good. He may be the boy who lived, but he is also a boy who spent ten years never being told good job. Look at all the points Harry loses from Snape. He worries over them because he feels like he is letting the rest of Gryffindor down. He wants the praise." Melody sputtered but Meg ignored her and continued. "No, he doesn't want to be the center of attention, but he wants people to love him. Whenever the school turns against him, that nagging thought that the Dursleys were right resurfaces. It is only Dumbledore's faith in him that keeps him going. Part of that faith is reflected in the trust of his friends. The most devastating moments for Harry have been when the world turns against him. Where are your books?" Shoving her blanket aside, Meg jumped up and walked over to Melody's desk. Reaching under a stack of books (Basics of Bunny Care, So You've Bought A Carnivorous Bunny, A History of 19th Century Fashion) and extracted Melody's copies of the four Harry Potter American hardback books. Happy with her find, Meg wandered back to her blanket. "Um, Meg?" Melody asked, clearing her throat. "Yes, Mel?" Meg asked, not looking up from the books. "Meg, I had copies of the books right here," Mel replied, snickering as she pointed to her bedside table an arm's length from where Meg sat. "Oh, sorry, wasn't thinking. Anyway, here, GoF, chapter 18." Meg replied, finding what she was looking for. Meg began to read aloud. 'The next few days were some of Harry's worst at Hogwarts. The closest he had ever come to feeling like this had been during those months, in his second year, when a large part of the school had suspected him of attacking his fellow students. But Ron had been on his side then. He thought he could have coped with the rest of the school's behavior if he could just have had Ron back as a friend, but he wasn't going to try and persuade Ron to talk to him if Ron didn't want to. Nevertheless, it was lonely with dislike pouring in on him from all sides.' Closing the book, Meg continued, "Here we can see how miserable Harry is when he feels like no one has faith in him. Hermione is the same way. We know she fears failure from her boggart. That's why Harry and Hermione stay close. It's also what excludes Ron. Ron doesn't fear failure like Harry and Hermione. It doesn't drive him like it drives them. He doesn't fear losing Dumbledore's respect like they do. In the end, it leaves Harry and Hermione together like they were in PoA when Ron can't help because his motivations are different. He has a sense of loyalty, but not the sense of justice that Harry and Hermione have. Ron is too prone to his preconceived ideas. Hermione and Harry didn't grow up in the Wizarding World like Ron. Both of them want to prove themselves and fear failing. Want proof of Hermione fearing failure? It's right here in PoA." Meg opened Melody's copy of PoA to page 318 and read aloud. 'Flushed with his success, Harry hung around to watch Ron and Hermione. Ron did very well until he reached the hinkypunk, which successfully confused him into sinking waist-high into the quagmire. Hermione did everything perfectly until she reached the trunk with the boggart in it. After about a minute inside it, she burst out again, screaming. "Hermione!" said Lupin, startled. "What's the matter?" "P -- P -- Professor McGonagall!" Hermione gasped, pointing into the trunk. "Sh -- she said I'd failed everything!" It took a little while to calm Hermione down. When at last she had regained a grip on herself, she, Harry, and Ron went back to the castle. Ron was still slightly inclined to laugh at Hermione's boggart, but an argument was averted by the sight that met them on the top of the steps.'" "You see, clearly she fears failure. And we know that Harry fears fear. Both of them fear being out of control. And Cindy, you said," Meg said with a click of her tape recorder. 'Then Harry will have suffered the most gut-wrenching failure of his life -- a failure that leads to the death of one of his two best friends. If anything will give Harry the desire to defeat Voldemort once and for all, that will.' With a click, the tape recorder went back off. Meg continued, "But I ask you, why does Hermione have to die? What happens if Harry acts like a typical teenager and does something to lose Dumbledore's respect. He is a teenager, no matter how we may put our ideas onto him, and teenagers do stupid things. Something is going to go to far and Harry will have that conversation with Dumbledore. Maybe Dumbledore will tell Harry that he isn't applying himself in his studies, that Quidditch isn't everything, because many times Harry seems to focus more on Quidditch than on his academics. Harry is brighter than he lets on. He just doesn't apply himself. I think Hermione takes both Harry and Ron's grades personally. She seems to be the one to make sure that they study. For them to fail would devastate her. Because then she hasn't proven herself as a friend." Meg paused to let her words sink in. Melody took the opportunity to ask a question. Melody asked, "So what are you saying Meg? That Dumbledore is going to lose respect of Harry because of his grades? That is pretty weak." Meg thought for a moment and responded, "No, I am saying that eventually, something is going to happen to cause Harry to think that he has lost Dumbledore's respect. That would spur Harry on to defeat Voldemort. That sense that he has to prove himself to get back into Dumbledore's good graces. And Hermione would be right by his side helping him because she has the same desire to prove herself." Meg stopped as she started to yawn. "Ok, I guess that is a sign that I need to stop talking now and head back to bed. Melody, we can talk more about this in the morning. Night." Meg gathered back up her blankets and headed back towards her bed, secretly pleased that she had decided to stay at the Safe House overnight. --Meg (who apologizes for the tardiness of this reply but who has been sick and who knows way too much about failure) Read the untold story of life as a first year medical student at: As The Scalpel Turns - http://www.livejournal.com/users/megd/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From iluvgahan at yahoo.com Mon Mar 17 01:21:37 2003 From: iluvgahan at yahoo.com (iluvgahan) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 17:21:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's divination exam (was: Re: Lily's protection) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030317012137.85963.qmail@web13501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53868 --- redandgoldlion wrote: > I know he told Trelawney he saw that, but I've > always had the impression that he at least thought he > made it up. > Personally, I *do* feel he really "saw" it, but he just > assumed he was making it up. I suppose he could have > truly made it up as well; you know, saying that to sort > of comfort himself or even to burst Trelawney's little > bubble of excitement she gets when she *sees* something > terrible happening. Now me: I always had the impression that he just made that prediction up because he couldn't really see anything. But I don't think he really did "see" that. IIRC Trelawney seemed to be egging him on asking him if he was sure he didn't see anything terrible like Buckbeak being beheaded, or something to that effect ( sorry, I don't have the book with me right now) and I got the impression that he said no to spite her in a way, or like redandgoldlion said, to comfort himself. Just my thought :) BTW I've been lurking for awhile but I really love reading all your thoughts, so I thought I'd introduce myself :) ===== Christina "I solemnly swear that I am up to no good." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com From llilling at aol.com Mon Mar 17 04:53:37 2003 From: llilling at aol.com (lhlhoward) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 04:53:37 -0000 Subject: Percy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53869 I am new to this group having lurked for some time now. I feel that Percy is the person who is going to dye. For one thing he is more or less a fan of Harry, he has been in all four books, and most importantly as a brother of Ron his death would be difficult for Rowling to write. from Laurence Lilling From imhotep1 at rcn.com Mon Mar 17 08:04:30 2003 From: imhotep1 at rcn.com (imhotep1) Date: 17 Mar 2003 00:04:30 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: An odd musing about Harry's attitude In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1047888271.16792.61.camel@princess> No: HPFGUIDX 53870 Hi, I'm Jeremy and I'm a first time poster. On Sun, 2003-03-16 at 20:26, Jon wrote: > Harry's treatment of authority figures he doesn't like. > I've noticed that if Harry doesn't like a person who is in > authority, he shows complete disrespect to them; [and toward the ends he writes] > Now, maybe I > was brought up oddly, but I distinctly remember my parents > drilling "respect your elders" into me for as long as I can > remember. I too was raised with the "respect your elders" line drilled into me, but I think it's obvious (to me at least) that although that line may have been quoted by the Dursleys, it wasn't ever an rule they lived by. I know people who have families somewhat like the Dursleys. They argue and bicker constantly, both the children to the adults and the adults to the children. I think it is clear (again, to me at least) that Harry's attitude toward adults he doesn't like was learned at home, from the way the Dursleys behaved toward him. His insults back were more or less his only form of defense. If he had remained quite he would have, at least in his own mind, confirmed their assertions that he was stupid and inferior to Dudley. I think Harry will never respect the Dursleys. Rowling seems to have gone to great lengths to make them humorously asinine and rude. I don't think anyone would expect a child who grew up in that household, constantly berated, to be respectful of those adults. However, Snape is a curious figure who's relationship with Harry I think is one of the more interesting relationships in the book. As far as Snape is concerned, I think Harry was convinced that Snape really did "have it in for him," even after he knew Snape tried to save him from Quirrel. There seems to be a concerted effort on Snape's part to knock Harry down a peg and/or get him expelled consistently. Now that Harry knows more about Snape's motives (i.e. his relationship to Harry's parents) it will be interesting to see if Harry gives more respect to Snape. All of that said, I think it's also worthwhile to point out that Harry is not the "perfect" boy. He's late to class, he sneaks out at night, he gets in jealous spats with his best friends, and he sneaks out of his house and runs away in a flying car (something I didn't do It until I was 17, er... only without the flying :) So I don't think it is really surprising that he isn't always of alter boy material when dealing with adults. One last point. Harry has shown incredible respect and deference to those adults he DOES trust. Look at how he acts in response to Dumbledore and Hagrid throughout the books. Well, this is how I see the issue, sorry for rambling -Jeremy From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 17 09:05:16 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 09:05:16 -0000 Subject: An odd musing about Harry's attitude In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53871 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jon" wrote: > ... > Harry's treatment of authority figures he doesn't like. > I've noticed that if Harry doesn't like a person who is in > authority, he shows complete disrespect to them; this despite any > qualifications they may have or any reasons that they SHOULD be > respected. I can think of two examples off the top of my head: > The Dursleys, and Snape. ...edited... bboy_mn: True, respect for your elder and people in general should be the default, and as far as I can see, Harry does respect people until they have given him reason to do otherwise. Considering what Harry's had to put up with I would say he is more respectful than most people would be of the Dursleys and Snape. I certainly can't agree with your statement that he shows 'complete disrespect'. Hobbit-guy: > Now, maybe I was brought up oddly, but I distinctly remember my > parents drilling "respect your elders" into me for as long as I can > remember. Harry's had almost the opposite lesson, it seems; from > his actions, it looks like he learned "respect those elders who are > nice to you and whom you like." bboy_mn: There is a difference between respect and blind respect. We need to make a judgements about a persons respectability; some people just aren't very respectable. While you should always respect a person's basic humanity, that doesn't mean you have to respect a mean vicious dishonest abusive person. I would still show basic politeness and Harry certainly is more polite than most people I've meet, but I don't respect people who do not conduct their lives in a respectable manner, and that seems very reasonable to me. > It's been getting even worse; in GoF, not only does Harry not obey > the diet the Dursleys are on, but he brazenly insults Uncle Vernon > ...edited... > > Hobbit-guy (who, despite his defence of the characters, dispises the > Dursleys almost as much as he does school essays) bboy_mn: I have a saying, 'Tyranny is the architect of it's own doom'. At some point oppressed people will always rise up against their oppressors. Harry is not a little boy any more. He's becoming his own man, and like a man he is standing up against his oppressors and refusing to be oppressed. That is a just and right thing to do. Again, there is a difference between obedience and blind obedience. We had a discussion a while back where someone talk about levels of moral development. People who blindly obey have a lower level of moral character than people who make their own judgements and do what they think is right. Sometimes the right thing to do is to disobey the rules; sometimes the right thing to do is to disrespect those who do not act respectably. Harry didn't obey the diet? So does anybody reasonably assume that anyone in the house was following Dudley's diet? No one seemed to lose any weight. And why should Harry obey the diet, he's not fat. In fact, if he had, it could have been unhealthy give how little food they seemed to be giving him. So his friends sent him a birthday cake for his birthday, that's hardly an act of civil disobedience. As far as, Harry 'brazenly insults Uncle Vernon', I don't recall reading that anywhere. He certainly is not taking crap from Uncle Vernon the way he did when he was a little boy, but personally, I see that as a good thing. He might have given a little cheek, but I don't remember any insults. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I think you are reading way to deep between the lines and finding a level of disrespect that just isn't there in my opinion. Just a thought. bboy_mn From carrie525 at mybluelight.com Mon Mar 17 05:49:06 2003 From: carrie525 at mybluelight.com (Carrie S) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 21:49:06 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bad stuff for Hermione References: Message-ID: <009501c2ec48$ed7eb620$c0195142@net> No: HPFGUIDX 53872 Greicy wrote about Hermione..... I'd, unfortunately, have to suggest that something may happen to Hermione. She is muggle born after all and if, as Mattie Stepanek hinted on the Oprah show, that muggles will be involved why not start by attacking the Grangers. Leaving Hermione an orphan and distressed that she cannot even be her regular bossy/studious self. Which in turn will jeopardize her position as prefect. Her whole world will come crumbling down and in a way only Harry will be able to understand what's she's feeling because he's been through it. *********I reply......... Yes, I get chills reading this because I can see it happening. Especially thanks to Rita Skeeter, who has all the more reason to hate Hermione now then she did before. Her parents are essentially defenseless and could be put in a dangerous position easily. I really think that Hermione made a bad decision in keeping Rita and thinking she could handle it. Prolly should have given her up to Dumbledore and let him deal with it. She is no match for a angry, competant, full grown witch. I don't think Rita would do something directly, but by writing mean articles about them, she could endanger her parents with the DE. Also, Hermione's parents are the ones we know least about. But they have been presented as nice and loving. It makes me feel uneasy for them, these are exactly the kind of characters JKR seems to level her wand at. Likeable, but we aren't too attached to them. Carrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grosich at nyc.rr.com Mon Mar 17 03:04:00 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina R Rosich) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 22:04:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Krum the transfer student? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53873 On 3/16/03 2:35 PM, "jsherman6" had this to say: > Krum often indicated that he enjoyed staying at Hogwarts. I think > it is quite possible that Krum will transfer to Hogwarts for his > last year(s) of school. > > However, this seems to present a few problems. What house would he > be sorted into? I think that it would be a toss up between Slytherin > and Gryffindor. No matter what house he was sorted into, he would > definitly become their lead seeker. > > It would be great to see Malfoy benched on the Quidditch field. And > it would be an excellent matchup between Harry and Krum (Krum of > course still a much better seeker). Though, Krum in Gryffindor > would present some interesting conflicts, like Harry's Quidditch > position, and the Ron-Hermione-Krum love triangle. > > Any more thoughts on Krum at Hogwarts? > It might be interesting to see the love triangle. But I don?t think we know enough about Krum to accurately guess what house he?d be sorted into. Slytherin seems to be a combination of happenstance and a reflection specifically of Karkaroff IMO. But I honestly don?t think Krum would play Quidditch at the school. Why would he? He?s already on a national team. And there?s no significant challenge for him after playing on a national team. Unless he?s no longer allowed on the team for not living in the country. But then, I could see any of the U.K. Teams trying to snatch him up. What I?m interested to know is how and where the Durmstrang and Beauxbaton students get their lessons. Do they learn from the Hogwarts faculty? Or did faculty members we haven?t met come along? --- Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From htfulcher at comcast.net Mon Mar 17 10:59:28 2003 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 10:59:28 -0000 Subject: An odd musing about Harry's attitude In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53874 Re Steve's contributions to this thread, and the initial one by Jon: Steve writes: > True, respect for your elder and people in general should be the > default, and as far as I can see, Harry does respect people until > they have given him reason to do otherwise. ..... I certainly > can't agree with your statement that he shows 'complete > disrespect'. .... There is a difference between respect and blind > respect. We need to make a judgements about a persons > respectability; some people just aren't very respectable. While > you should always respect a person's basic humanity, that doesn't > mean you have to respect a mean vicious dishonest abusive person. > I would still show basic politeness and Harry certainly is more > polite than most people I've meet, but I don't respect people who > do not conduct their lives in a respectable manner,and that seems > very reasonable to me. ..... Harry is not a little boy any more. > He's becoming his own man, and like a man he is standing up > against his oppressors and refusing to be oppressed. That is a > just and right thing to do. > > Again, there is a difference between obedience and blind > obedience. We had a discussion a while back where someone talk > about levels of moral development. People who blindly obey have a > lower level of moral character than people who make their own > judgements and do what they think is right. Sometimes the right > thing to do is to disobey the rules; sometimes the right thing to > do is to disrespect those who do not act respectably. > ME jumps in to comment... I think this topic comes naturally from the previous discussion about philosophy and HP. Harry's moral development is reflected in several ways. But politeness is more than a quality of one's moral fibre, as is noted by Jon and Steve. I would note that Harry _is_ polite, and naturally so given his age and the circle of acquaintances with whom he associates. Leaving the Dursley's out of it, Harry's interactions with Snape are complicated and growing more so, yet these interactions always reveal Harry to follow the basic protocols of student-teacher, youth-adult conventions. I have taught kids Harry's age (POA and GoF age) and most of the kids are very good, well-mannered, moral children. That doesn't mean they don't push the envelope. During this age range there is a tendency to black and white everything and everone. It has been variously noted that the series is written from a third-person limited perspective. Generally, what we see and know depends on Harry's perception of things. Harry may show displeasure or dislike at the way Snape treats him but he goes to class, follows instructions related to the lessons, and gives minimal cheek to Snape throughout. What he has discovered is that he can be open in disliking Snape because this seems quite acceptable to Snape himself. On the other hand, thematically, Snape serves to check the development of pride in Harry -- if Harry should ever want to believe his own press, there is Professor Snape to remind him that he's just a snivelling little git who doesn't deserve it. This contributes to keep Harry humble, and promotes self-examination. There is an interesting article from ZENIT.org today about HP and morality, etc.. It can be read at http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=32786 I'd love to hear feedback on it (and/or anything of my morning ramblings here :-> ) MarEphraim From steinber at inter.net.il Mon Mar 17 09:38:55 2003 From: steinber at inter.net.il (asandhp) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 09:38:55 -0000 Subject: Predictions for OoP/ SHIP: a few kayaks and a large fan-tom ship Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53875 Responding to Amy M first and GulPlum after: Amy M: >Snape and Fleur. >Hmm, not sure about this one. Would be hard to see how JKR would >make it work, and I never really got the impression that Snape cared >that much for looks. Me: The only "logical" reason for pairing Snape and Fleur is her partial veela charms, which might be enough to turn Snape's unturnable head. >Also he is almost twice her age, though it >would make a rather amusing scene if they were caught together. That would certainly contribute to Snape's "tortured resistance" to his unwilling falling-in-love, which would be such fun to read. > I would like to know where you stand on Snapes feelings about >Lily, I am completely in love with the theory of LOLLIPOPS and your >theory about Fleur is similar. Apart form she's alive and Lily is >quite dead though. LOLLIPOPS was named before I joined the list and I haven't checked out what it stands for, but if it's the theory that Snape's problem with James was mostly jealousy over Lily, and the further theory that his going with Voldemort had something to do with Voldemort promising him Lily, and that being the reason for Voldemort's interest in sparing Lily, and the further theory that Snape's rejection of Voldemort had something to do with Lily's death, then all I can say is that I formulated almost the identical theory a few years ago, before I had anyone to share it with or any idea that the theory was so commonplace. Since then, all I can add is (1) the reason this idea is so "trite" and "overworked" (and therefore unpopular with many on this list) is that it is so true to human nature that ideas of this type have appeared in literature for ages. JK loves to be true to human nature (and I love her for it) so she might go this route; however she also loves complete surprises, so she might avoid this route. (2) My personal twist on this compound theory was that Voldemort promised Lily to Snape before James and Lily married, and Snape assumed that it would be accomplished through some cleaner method than murder (some seriously wicked love potion). When J&L married, and Snape further realized that V meant to kill James, he got turned off to the deal. He really wasn't interested in Lily as an unwilling, heartbroken (or will-broken) partner, and murder was a bit further than he meant to go, when he signed on with Voldemort, back before Voldemort showed all his worst colors. However, by then he was afraid to back out openly, so Voldemort went ahead with trying to snag Lily, not realizing that Snape was already negotiating with Dumbledore behind his back. (3) My twist has Snape hating Harry mostly out of guilt that he was the main cause of J&L's deaths. (4) But when I realized how unoriginal this whole idea was, I kind of lost interest in it. >Hermione and older wizard >Well, there is that small rather bent group of shippers over there to >the left who are quite happy to pair off Hermione with Snape, as long >as it's after she leaves school of course, this is a children's book >after all. No, not Snape. They just don't have the personality for the cozy, comfortable relationship I envision for Hermione in her 30's. Maybe Lupin, but he doesn't have the breadth of personality. I guess I have in mind someone like a young Dumbledore. >Neville and Ginny. I love this pairing and it always makes me >smile. But why wait until they both leave school. There are >endless comic potential with this pairing. I don't have any >brothers but I think the six Weasly boys would be pretty protective >of their little sister, oh dear, poor Neville. OK. Fine with me. Let's get them together first. But everyone will live happily ever after when he becomes a respectable absent-minded professor. >Ron and Hermiones muggle sister >I never really thought of this one before. I do like your little >twist at the end though. Thank you. I've put a good bit of thought into it. > My favourite SHIP for Ron would have to be >Eloise Midgen though. Introduced in book four when she tried to hex >her spots off but removed her nose and had it put back on squint, in >Rons opinion. Ron also hated the thought of being left without a >partner to go to the ball and having to go with her. However we know >Hermione thinks she's really nice. >It might not be till book six or seven where Eloise "matures over the >summer" and suddenly the spots are gone, her nose is not squint but >unique and her personality a wonderful match for Ron. Who, in my >opinion, is now tired of being shunned by Hermione and at the >beginning of term bursts into Harrys train compartment and >exclaims "you'll never guess who I just saw!" I agree that Ron deserves to fall for Eloise. It's a comeuppance that I hope happens. But, if you forgive me, I expect it will be a short- term relationship. They haven't had anything to do with each other till now, and nothing about her promises to be interesting. Of course that doesn't prove anything, but it makes a real thing less likely. The main thing is that, as I wrote, I view it as very important to the series' culmination that Ron pair up with a true-blue Muggle. Someone has to show that Muggle tolerance can go the last mile, and Harry and Hermione are not good candidates because they grew up with Muggles, so of course they can tolerate them. The only question is *which* Muggle, and the answer to that requires two things: access and acceptability (to the readers). Access can be accomplished well through Hermione (if it's her sister, cousin or whatever), though plenty of other routes could be devised, but acceptability can be accomplished *best* through Hermione. Readers are never happy by a new face as a romantic candidate (as this list has often stated), but this problem is much diminished if an old face vouches earnestly for the new face. Especially if the old face (1) really likes both parties, (2) knows both parties very well, (3) and can in some way be a mental bridge in the reader's minds so that they feel that they know the new face because they know the old one. Hermione would know her sister and Ron about equally well, we trust that she likes Ron and has his best interests at heart, and if said sister is described as having had a large share in forming Hermione's personality, then in the reader's mind she becomes a sort-of Hermione-alter-ego, and thus can be accepted fairly well. >One pairing you missed off was Hannah Abbot and Ernie Macmillian. >Seen swapping chocolate frog cards in the three broomsticks over the >Christmas of fourth year it is my prediction that they will be the >first two who start "officially" dating in book five. Go for it Hannah and Ernie! >Amy M >Passing out some heart shaped, soft centred, sugar coated chocolate >sweets to all who board her Ron/Eloise kayak ;-) (I'll share it, if it's a short ride.) Now responding to Gulplum: >Well, unless you're JKR (in which case, welcome!) :-) I wish! Or rather, I wish she had the time to talk serious LitCrit and Creative Writing with her fans who are also in the business. So far all she's done is respond to basic fan-type questions and encourage novice writers. How about the lit profs, veteran writers, editors and all the rest of us who'd like to hear much more analytical self- critiques? > you can't know beyond >a doubt that it's true and thus it is speculation rather than fact. >As you will have seen from however long you've been reading this >list, there's a LOT of speculation around, and *some* of it has to >come true, if only as a result of the old adage that if you throw >enough mud, some of it will stick... After all, if we didn't think >some of speculations would come true, we wouldn't bother discussing >them in the first place. Have any predictions proven true in the past? And if so, how were they reached? Knowing this would be very informative and helpful to everyone, I imagine. > >>There are only so many standard mystery and fantasy plots, and JK >>has already used four each in the first four books. Figure like >>this: >> >>Mystery: >>PP/SS: bank robbery/ burglery >>CoS: attempted murder >>PoA: jail break >>GoF: secret agent/ attempted murder >Isn't that selective post-rationalising? >The secret agent plot is present in each of the books to date: >Quirrel, Ginny (OK, she wasn't a willing agent, but she was an agent >all the same; even so, Diary!Riddle fits the profile as well), >Wormtail (and Crookshanks,in a way), Crouch Jr. And of course Snape >throughout the books, who's the very essence of a secret agent. >The jail break motif is an important element of both PoA and GoF; it could also be applied to CoS (Diary!Riddle "escapes" the diary, Ginny is imprisoned, the Basilisk is freed); I can't immediately see escape from imprisonment in PS/SS, but I'm sure someone else can have a go. :-) >Attempted murder is all over the place. I won't even list the candidates.:-) >As for robbery/burglary (in fiction, *bank* robberies aren't *that* >frequent), the burglary in the first book is hardly of the same narrative importance as, say, Sirius's escape in PoA. The PS/SS plot could have easily happened without any reference to the Gringotts break-in. Yes, it sets some of the action in motion, but it's not central to that action. Robbery/burglary makes several other appearances anyway, sometimes in a more important role than that. In CoS, Hermione steals the Boomslang skin from Snape's office (ditto Crouch Jr. in GoF, and Dobby with the Gillyweed in CoS). Ginny steals the diary back from the boys' dorm in CoS, Crookshanks steals Neville's password list in PoA, Sirius breaks into Gryffindor Tower. There are more examples. I think you missed my point. I'm not talking about whether attempted murder or jail breaks occur at all in a book. I'm talking about the main thread of mystery part of the plot. PS is about rescuing the stone from Snape. Of course it is about a few dozen things besides, but the *mystery* that Harry is busy dealing with all through PS is "What was almost stolen from Gringotts and who is still trying to steal it from Hogwarts?" The prime *mystery* in CoS is "What is attacking the students and who is behind the attacks?" For PoA, it's "Where is Sirius Black and how can he be caught?" For GoF, it's "Who is trying to get Harry killed by having put Harry's name in the Goblet of Fire and what else is he going to do help get Harry killed?" I summarized these as "burglary, attempted murder, jail break, secret agent/attempted murder," but you are welcome to summarize these differently. In any case, once they are summarized, we can look for which stock plots are not covered and speculate about which might yet be used and when. I used the same method with stock fantasy plots as follows: Fantasy: PP/SS: keeping a magic object away from the Dark Lord (a la LOTR) CoS: slaying the dragon PoA: rescuing the innocent from a high tower (prepubescently not a princess) GoF: accomplishing heroic tasks (a la Greek mythology) Your arguments against my list are valid, but rather than just knock categorizations, please come up with your own, and let's see whether we can guess which remaining stock plots are likely to appear. >One small comment on the GoF one: isn't "heroic task" just a little vague? >After all, the other three examples are themselves heroic tasks. Hercules and his ilk were set tasks to accomplish after which they would be rewarded. European fairy tales often have the king setting his daughter's suitors all sorts of tasks to accomplish in order to earn her hand. That fits GoF but not the other books. My guesses for OoP were: Mystery - kidnapping; Fantasy - saving a real princess from a high tower,etc (see above) Your complaints: >Kidnapping: already done: Quirrel is sort-of kidnapped by Voldemort; Ginny >is kidnapped into the Chamber; Ron is sort-of kidnapped into the Shrieking >Shack; Moody is *absolutely* kidnapped by Crouch Jr., and what other word >is there for getting Harry to the graveyard? :-) Yes - but these were never the thrust of the *mystery* in any book. GoF was not all about "Who kidnapped Harry and how to get him back." >Saving the princess: she's already been saved from the dungeon (err... "see >above"). :-) When the whole book is about a monster ravaging the school, and it turns out to be a giant snake, then we've got a dragon paradigm. Dragons always devour pure damsels, and some of these damsels are saved by the hero, but it's still a dragon tale. My guesses for Book 6 were: Mystery - information espionage; Fantasy - reaching the secret >source of magical wisdom Your complaints: >Espionage is an undercurrent throughout the books, and in any event it's >not a plot archetype, it's a genre. You might be right, but I can only ask you to suggest an alternative. > The source of magical wisdom was >already encountered in the first book as the Philosopher's Stone, and in >any event, the kids will be doing their NEWTs in Book Seven, so the >archetype of attainment of magical wisdom is already pretty much a foregone >conclusion for *that* book. The philosopher's stone provided gold and life, not wisdom. And NEWTs test knowledge, they don't provide any. Many fantasies have a inner sanctum of knowlege accessible only to the fewest of initiates. All mages know standard magic, but the high priest of magic has access to something much, much more. That's what I'm predicting Dumbledore will share with Harry in Book 6. >I don't have any ideas for specific plots. However, I would propose that >one plot element is very likely to turn up, as it's been the very crux of >the books to date: "the dead guy dun it". >Throughout PS/SS, it is generally assumed that Voldemort is dead; in CoS, >Riddle is perhaps not dead, but he doesn't exist since he become Voldemort, >not to mention that Ginny's death is assumed to be inevitable before Harry >enters the Chamber; in PoA, Pettigrew had been seen to die by a dozen >people; in GoF, Barty Crouch Jr. was known to be dead and buried. >I'll go one step further along those lines: the scene during which each of >those characters is introduced is the scene in which it is established that >they can't *possibly* be part of the story. I'd therefore propose that if a >character is talked about in OotP and they are stated to be >incontrovertibly out of the picture, that's who we should be looking out >for as the bad guy. :-) Now this is a brilliant, fabulous piece of analysis and I buy it 100%. I only wonder whether JKR won't do an end run around us and purposely make the villian someone so obvious, this time, that HRH and we simply overlook him. In one of my posts, I suggested Draco as a villian for a sub-plot of OoP for just this reason. -- >GulPlum AKA Richard, anxious to hear Admiring Sceptic's sure-fire idea... You'll get it eventually, but I doubt I'll be posting again until next week. The Admiring Skeptic From steinber at inter.net.il Mon Mar 17 09:41:01 2003 From: steinber at inter.net.il (asandhp) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 09:41:01 -0000 Subject: Betryal (was Rowling and Philosophy) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53876 Responding to Tom Wall first and Lynda after: Tom Wall replied: The Admiring Skeptic wrote: So, starting at the bottom, we have Draco offering many unprovoked insults for the singular purpose of putting people down. HRH never do that. They respond in kind very often, but they never put people down out of the blue. TW: Well, they I'm not sure I agree here. Maybe in contrast with Draco, okay, although I really see that comparison in terms of two equally opposed and antagonistic groups. But as for them not putting people down, I mean, what about Ron's talk when prepping for the Yule Ball? In fact, I'd say I have to disagree with you on Ron, in particular, here. Ron puts people down a lot. "And my names's Malfoy. Draco Malfoy." Ron gave a slight cough, which might have been hiding a snigger. (PS/SS, US paperback, Ch.6, 108) "It's no wonder no one can stand her," he said to Harry as they pushed their way into the crowded corridor, "she's a nightmare, honestly." (PS/SS, US paperback, Ch.10, 172) "She just didn't want to go with Neville... I mean, who would?" (GoF, US hardcover, Ch.22, 399) So, I'd argue that Ron is often found insulting others. We wouldn't be told that his cough 'might have been hiding' a snigger unless it probably was. T.A.S re-replying: All these are examples of Ron talking about people behind their backs, except for the cough, which was, after all, *hiding* a snigger. He wasn't sniggering outright. Now bad-mouthing people is not right, but it's different from insulting them to their faces, which Draco does all the time. Back to TW: So, in that sense, Ron really starts it there. Draco's the one retaliating. TAS: No. When an author tells you a cough "might have been hiding a snigger" instead of "was hiding a snigger" all you know is that it was very likely to sound like a hidden snigger to Draco and that Ron is not too angelic to be suspected of sniggering. But in any case, Ron can't be blamed for an involuntary snigger, especially when he tries so hard to hide it that it can only be described as "might have been." More TW: And on Hermione, well, I agree that she came off as having mildly annoying behavior in the beginning of PS/SS. But still - she heard it, and she had really not done anything to Ron. TAS: Ron didn't know she was in earshot and he felt somewhat bad for her having been hurt. That doesn't make him a great person, but he can't be accused of puposely trying to hurt her feelings. TW: And imagine saying that about Neville. What has Neville ever done to Ron to warrant that? IMHO, that's downright awful of Ron to say such a thing. TAS: Yes, but he didn't say it *to* Neville. *To* Neville, he's always encouraging. He *never* insults Neville directly. He doesn't want people to feel put down, even though he has negative opinions that he shares (improperly) with others. The Admiring Skeptic (originally) wrote: Draco has minions, not equals, for "friends." HRH are quite equal. Draco tattles to teachers; HRH do not. Draco tries to get Hagrid sacked; HRH try to save the stone from Snape, but they don't report him to anyone in order to get him fired. (They wish it, but they take no action to accomplish it.) Draco and co. unfairly sabotage the Quidditch game in PoA; Harry helps Cedric improve his chances in GoF. Draco's prejudiced against Muggle-borns; HRH aren't. TW replies: You make a lot of points here, so I'll kind of handle them one at a time. Just the Draco/HRH ones, though, since I do agree with your stand-alone points about Harry's morality (like re: Cedric.) On minions: We don't know that for sure. Just because Crabbe and Goyle are silent doesn't mean they're Draco's minions. Yes, they are portrayed that way, and I would agree that most of the indications we get from JKR would support that position, but let's face it, we don't know that. In CoS, when Harry and Ron polyjuice into Crabbe and Goyle, I mean, Draco does appear to expect them to converse with him - so it's not like all he does is demand adulation from them. They do have some kind of dialogue going on behind the scenes. TAS: All I'm discussing here are JKR's morals and philosophies. If she protrays Crabbe and Goyle as minions of the "junior bad guy," in contrast to Harry, who, as "junior good guy," has equals for friends, she means that having minions is a bad thing. Which we all agree, of course, but my point is that having minions is a *defining characteristic* *for JKR* of evil, junior to senior. If Draco ever treats them mainly as equals and yet remains the junior bad guy, then my thesis will be disproven. If they break loose and Draco doesn't accept their equality, he still remains an example of the desire for dominance being a large part of JKR's definition of evil. TW: On tattling: HRH do tell Hagrid, and several times at that, that they suspect Snape is going to steal the stone. And Hagrid tells them they're wrong repeatedly. TAS: Their aim is generally to save the stone. They're not plotting to get Snape fired. TW: Also, in Ch.9, Ron's about to tell on Draco when McGonagall catches Harry flying. The only reason he doesn't finish his sentence is because McGonagall doesn't let him. So, I'd say that again, HRH are not squeaky-clean on this point. TAS: OK. I give in on this one. But all this shows is that JKR doesn't define tattling as intrinsically evil. Which, truth to tell, it's not. TW: On Hagrid: you know, I'd like to point out that Hagrid is not without fault here - he holds Slytherin house in deep disregard and maligns them at the drop of a hat, and let's face it, Hagrid *did* choose a dangerous creature that perhaps would have been better left until later on in the year. In fact, the Slytherins across the board after that class think that Hagrid should be sacked, and that's pre- Malfoy's broken-arm-act. Just because HRH like Hagrid doesn't mean that the rest of the school does. We do hear that the Gryffindors are his biggest supporters, and frankly, I think that that explains why we like Hagrid so much - since our main characters are Gryffindors. If our lead character was a Ravenclaw, I bet we'd have different perspectives on a lot of the teachers. TAS: The question is not whether Hagrid should be fired, but whether kids should be busy engineering teacher replacements. TW: On sabotage: Yes, Draco and co. try to sabotage the quidditch game. But let's face it, in CoS Harry and Ron DRUG Crabbe and Goyle so that they can polyjuice into them. They deceive Draco into not only revealing the location of the Slytherin common room (a grievous offense and total breach of the general sort of "school trust," IMO,) but also talking about secrets that they have no right to know. All this, because they've irrationally concluded on their own that Malfoy is not just mean, but is actually a murderer! Can you *imagine* what they're reaction would be if they found out Malfoy had been in the Gryffindor common room? No, I can't give you that one, here. HRH are WAY MORE out of line in this scene than DCG have ever been, IMHO. DCG are mean. HRH are out of control when they have their minds made up. They'll stop at nothing to do what they think is right, even if they're totally wrong. TAS: Granted. But what I want to do is line up what HRH did against what DCG do and figure out what about the former JKR thinks is OK and what about the latter JKR thinks is evil. This thread, after all, is "Rowling and Philosophy," not "Are HRH evil." And all I can conclude is that DCG's wrongdoing was meant to give Slytherin an unfair advantage in Quidditch, while HRH were irrationally, and "misdemeanoringly," trying to save lives. If HRH had been out to smear Malfoy, they would not have given up the Malfoy chase so completely once they found out he wasn't culpable. They would have looked for some other way to get him blamed. So their intentions were *not* to insult, disgrace or otherwise harm Draco out of hand. They were only going to do that if they discovered a true guilt on Malfoy's part. In fact, one can even give them credit for trying to find out the truth and for not just assuming Malfoy's guilt as fact. That doesn't excuse any of their methods, but it does show that JKR doesn't consider methods sufficient to label a person evil. TW: On prejudice: HRH may not be prejudiced against Muggle borns, but that's not because they're so virtuous. Both Harry and Hermione ARE half-bloods, and Ron's Dad loves muggles. So, are they accepting of themselves? Yes. By association, do they accept other Muggleborns? Yes. But what about the prejudices against the giants and the house-elves that Ron espouses? Hermione is a bastion of tolerance, and Harry seems to stay out on these subjects a lot, simply because he is rather ignorant about a lot of this stuff, so he's lucky: he hasn't been pre-tainted. But Ron, I mean, look at the way he refers to Lupin in PoA Ch.17 when the professor tries to help him. "Get away from me, werewolf!" (PoA, US paperback, Ch.17, 345) He can't just say 'get away from me?' He's just got to use the bigoted term, right? Nope - I can't give you Ron here. Ron is pretty prejudiced, truth be told. TAS: You're right, as I've said before, but you're arguing a different point from mine. If we want to analyze JKR on prejudice, and not HRH on prejudice, then all we can say is that something about Ron's prejudice is different, in her mind, from Draco's. I believe it is Ron's willingness to learn a better attitude, and his lack of desire to rub other people's noses into his prejudice. But maybe you can figure out better than I can what she sees as the difference between them. TW: I don't concur with your Lupin/Snape comparisons, because I think that Harry deserves a lot of what he gets from Snape simply because he's so disrespectful towards him. Yes, Snape is a little over the top when dealing with Harry, but Harry is simply not pleasant, polite, or in any way respectful of Snape - even Dumbledore has to remind Harry of this from time to time. Harry, IMHO, earns Snape's scorn, frankly. TAS: So compare Snape's treatment of scornful Harry to Lupin's treatment of scornful Draco (ignores, apparently) and you'll get JKR's take on how evil vs good teachers treat scornful students. TW: As for Lupin, I *love* his character (and am therefore so dismayed by Pippin's convining Evil!Lupin argument,) (TAS: I hate the idea so much I've hardly read any of the arguments, but the bit I've skimmed sound pretty good.) TW: and I also love his constant pleasant-ness and upbeat nature. But Lupin does tend to favor Harry a little bit, for instance, when he makes a cheer to a Gryffindor victory, then quickly adds that he shouldn't be taking sides, as a teacher. And Lupin does save Harry's butt when Snape catches him with the Marauder's Map. So, does Lupin cover for Harry, ala Snape favoring Draco? Yeah, I'd say that he does. TAS: Again, compare Snape's methods of favortism to Lupin's and you'll get JKR's take on that too. Lupin has tea with Harry and drinks to Griffindor, but AFAWK, he doesn't deal out points unfairly or insult students. TW: I do agree with the majority of your other observations on the series' moral perspectives, particularly the ones about family and rule-breaking, which are right on the money, IMHO. TAS: Thank you. -Tom Now for Lynda, who wrote: > Asandhp: > > *large snip* > > Is JKR aiming for a Kantian reunion of the > > humanities and sciences (and religion, if future books make good on > > that score)? > > religion? Could you elaborate on what you mean here? > > > > Lynda Do you mean how Kant combined the humanities, science and religion, or how JKR might? If you mean Kant, I'm not much use. I've learned a bit about his philosophy and I remember that he was the last great unifier of philosophy, including religion and science, but if you want to learn more, go to an expert. As for JKR, it bothers me that in her universe, fantasy is real while religion seems to be quite as unreal as today's society makes it out to be. I'm quite religious myself, but the world at large more commonly treats religion like a fantasy than like a reality. When fantasy in HP turns out to be "real" and religion doesn't, it makes religion even less real than before, because "look - magic, which we knew was nothing, works, but religion still doesn't do anything." However, various interviews have included comments that the series will end with some religious components, so the last word is yet to come in on this issue, and I'm hoping that religion will turn out to be even more real than magic. (Though I doubt it will be my religion.) The Admiring Skeptic From jdm267 at psu.edu Mon Mar 17 13:45:38 2003 From: jdm267 at psu.edu (jsherman6) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 13:45:38 -0000 Subject: Muggle Trouble Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53877 >From reading recent posts, it looks like a lot of people agree that some sort of Muggle mishap is going to happen. Whether a Muggle is killed or kidnapped, it will probably be a Muggle we have heard about. I was trying to think of possible Muggles who might be in trouble. But, there really has not been very many Muggles presented in the first books. Here are a few off the top of my head: The Dursleys The Grangers Piers Polkiss Aunt Marge Mr. Dursley's Boss & Boss' Wife I would like to get a more comprehensive list of Muggles if possible. And maybe some comments about their probable danger in future books. -jack- From grosich at nyc.rr.com Mon Mar 17 15:06:03 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina Rosich) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 07:06:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] An odd musing about Harry's attitude In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030317150603.59237.qmail@web13105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53878 Jon wrote: I've been rereading the books (again!), and a something struck me as I read POA. Harry's treatment of authority figures he doesn't like. I've noticed that if Harry doesn't like a person who is in authority, he shows complete disrespect to them; this despite any qualifications they may have or any reasons that they SHOULD be respected. I can think of two examples off the top of my head: The Dursleys, and Snape. *** I agree with you. And I think this might be a function of Harry's adolescence. In the first book, Harry does show more respect for the Dursleys. But as he comes into his own, he loses patience with them. He is growing up and seeing them as childish and somewhat inconsequential. I'm sure he is thinking this is only something he must put up with until he comes of age (and for all we know he may be right). Furthermore, his measures of disrespect become more blatant with every passing year. He gets older, he is coming into his own, he is learning how to manipulate situations to his own advantage. But he used a lot more "pleases" and "sirs" towards Vernon Dursley at first. And he doesn't blatantly disregard the diet (a diet he does not need to be on, btw). He sneaks food. In my mind, if he was blatantly disregarding, he would've swapped some of his wizard gold for pounds and started buying and eating whatever he wanted whenever he wanted in front of them. I think with Snape it is similar but not the same. Snape has real power in a way the Dursleys do not. And Snape deliberately pushes Harry's buttons, whereas the Dursleys are 'just being themselves.' And I think Harry's reactions towards Snape further exacerbate Snape's pushing of Harry's buttons. There is a connection between those two. And there is a lesson to be learned in controlling your tongue and Snape wants to teach it to Harry. I'm not saying it's ok for Harry to act this way. He does need to show more respect to Snape. Even Dumbledore points out the word "Professor" to Harry. And, on a personal note, it irks me to no end that Harry has never bothered to thank Snape for all that he's done to try and save Harry's life. I can't help but think by book seven he will be forced to learn the difference between people who are "nice" and people who are "good." That is part of the role Snape is playing in his life. And that kind of more complicated relations with the world is what one learns in adolescence. Does that make sense? Gina :-) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tracey.burkhardt at gnb.ca Mon Mar 17 15:26:35 2003 From: tracey.burkhardt at gnb.ca (iwishiwerehermione) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 15:26:35 -0000 Subject: Percy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53879 Laurence Lilling: > I feel that Percy is the person who is going to die. I've also been thinking about this and I agree Percy seems a likely choice. The Weasleys are all "fans" of Harry's. A possible storyline in my mind is that order-and-rule loving Percy blindly follows Fudge on his assumption that the Minister for Magic couldn't possibly be wrong about the rise of Voldemort. I am viewing Fudge's blindness towards the impending confrontation to be a clue that he knows what's happening and is a Voldemort supporter. Perhaps Percy will follow Fudge, causing a rift in the Weasley family, and refuses to see the truth until it is too late, ultimately resulting in his death. "iwishiwerehermione" From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Mar 17 13:58:44 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 13:58:44 -0000 Subject: Betryal (was Rowling and Philosophy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53880 > TW: On prejudice: Ron, I mean, look at the way he refers to Lupin > in PoA Ch.17 when the professor tries to help him. > > "Get away from me, werewolf!" (PoA, US paperback, Ch.17, 345) > > He can't just say 'get away from me?' He's just got to use the > bigoted term, right? Nope - I can't give you Ron here. Ron is pretty > prejudiced, truth be told. Werewolves *are* dangerous, prejudice or not. Ron probably suspected that Lupin would transform and kill him any minute. (and er- it *was* full moon time, wasn't it?) Then, later - Ron volunteers to be *chained* to Pettigrew with Lupin (concluded that it's not full Moon and he's safe?) I see more fault with Lupin, forgetting how dangerous he is, that it IS that time of Moon... even after Ron's fear reminded him? -- Finwitch From jdm267 at psu.edu Mon Mar 17 13:32:17 2003 From: jdm267 at psu.edu (jsherman6) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 13:32:17 -0000 Subject: Beginning of OotP (Re: How hard would it be..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53881 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: > I agree with a lot of people on the board who'd see that a completely > different beginning would be an interesting twist. I like the idea > that he may have to defend the Dursleys. They may not be his biggest > fans, but let's consider, for some miracle, things become better > between them and then Harry would feel even more guilty if they die > later on in the book. The Dursleys in danger? I sure hope so. The act of Harry or some other Witch/Wizard (possibly Mrs. Figg?) saving the Dursleys could change the whole relationship between Harry and the Dursleys. As for the Dursleys being killed, I really don't think so. While at the moment the Dursleys are especially cruel people, they are the only family Harry has left. And I don't believe that JKR would completely orphan Harry. I do think that the Dursleys will end up respecting Harry and the Wizarding World. Possibly, a Wizard family will take the Dursleys in during this time of turmoil. Could you see the Weasleys and the Dursleys living together? Maybe not :) -jack- From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Mon Mar 17 16:28:41 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 16:28:41 -0000 Subject: Height Three Foot Ten (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53882 Height Three Foot Ten (To the tune of Dance Ten Looks Three ? aka Tits and Ass ? from A Chorus Line) Hear a MIDI at: http://www.broadwaymidi.com/shows/chorus_line.html Dedicated to Haggridd (aficionado of all things Broadway) THE SCENE: Charms Class. FILIUS FLITWICK is lecturing his class. During the song, he charms various classroom items to dance along beside him. FLITWICK Height Three Foot Ten Got an underactive thyroid, But I'm so artfully employed This is it, kids! This is it, kids! Height Three Foot Ten Though rather wee Why be giant when you're reliant On magic steroids like these.... Swish and flick Grab yourself a fancy wand Know the charms that correspond Turn the wrist with it I'll assist with it Swish and flick! Used my Cheering Charm today. Suddenly we're breaking Out in smiles! Swish and flick will cast a spell In bang-up style! You will get your act together Once you learn to float a feather Do it shortly I will get these lessons hummin', How to banish and to summon. This is it, kids! This is it, kids! At Hogwarts, we Do more than brews Though on books I stand I've at my command Spells you must learn to use How? Swish and flick Fruit once made a boring stance You will teach it how to dance Cherry syrup, hey! Then we'll gear up, hey! Shake your stick! Say the word Wingardium. Emphasize in Leviosa "s"! Swish and flick with either wrist, And great finesse! It will be fun! Use the Latin words. Float a toad, c'mon With the wizard from Ravenclaw and its bird For swish and flick. See ya here same time each week As you'll hear me squeal and squeak With a charm you can Disarm any man OWLS and NEWTS, you shall neither of them fail, Graduation will not be delayed Swish and flick, with swish and flick You'll make the grade! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From artsylynda at aol.com Mon Mar 17 16:28:52 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 11:28:52 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Predictions for OoP/Ship/Harry Message-ID: <1a0.121a9567.2ba751c4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53883 Richard: > I can't immediately see escape > from imprisonment in PS/SS, but I'm sure someone else can have a > go. :-) > Harry was abused and imprisoned and neglected his whole life until his 11th birthday. He escaped imprisonment (granted, he's still somewhat imprisoned over the summer holiday), abuse, starvation, neglect, and a life with no hope or joy or laughter (except when something happened to Dudley, of course) with help from a gazillion post owls and Hagrid. I've just started reading SS again (8th time??) and poor Harry's delight in being taken to the zoo for the first time in his life. . .well, it's a sad child who gets locked up or sent away when anything fun is about to happen. It's truly amazing Harry turned out as well as he did. I just met a toddler who was adopted from an orphange in Kazitstan (sp??). Her mom said she had no expression and her eyes were actually cloudy when they found her, because the orphanage didn't spend much time playing with the babies and showing them love. Since she was adopted, she has become a happy little cherub with a constant smile on her face, a very expressive and charming child who is obviously enjoying life. Harry had a worse childhood than this little girl, yet he's a survivor and still has his sense of humor, sense of honor, and sense of responsibility. I find that amazing. Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grace701 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 17 16:33:43 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 16:33:43 -0000 Subject: Bad stuff for Hermione In-Reply-To: <009501c2ec48$ed7eb620$c0195142@net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53884 >I (Greicy) wrote about Hermione..... >I'd, unfortunately, have to suggest that something may happen to >Hermione. She is muggle born after all and if, as Mattie Stepanek >hinted on the Oprah show, that muggles will be involved why not >start by attacking the Grangers. Leaving Hermione an orphan and >distressed that she cannot even be her regular bossy/studious >self. Which in turn will jeopardize her position as prefect. Her >whole world will come crumbling down and in a way only Harry will >be able to understand what's she's feeling because he's been >through it. Carrie replied: >Yes, I get chills reading this because I can see it happening. >Especially thanks to Rita Skeeter, who has all the more reason to >hate Hermione now then she did before. Her parents are essentially >defenseless and could be put in a dangerous position easily. I >really think that Hermione made a bad decision in keeping Rita and >thinking she could handle it. Prolly should have given her up to >Dumbledore and let him deal with it. She is no match for a angry, >competant, full grown witch. I don't think Rita would do something >directly, but by writing mean articles about them, she could >endanger her parents with the DE. > Also, Hermione's parents are the ones we know least about. But >they have been presented as nice and loving. It makes me feel >uneasy for them, these are exactly the kind of characters JKR seems >to level her wand at. Likeable, but we aren't too attached to them. This whole Rita Skeeter business is going to ruin Hermione one way or another. It makes me uneasy. Hermione can't be right all the time. She'll finally realize that she can't solve everything the way she wants it to be solved. Skeeter will more than likely bring attention to Hermione as, not only Harry's "love interest", but also as a muggle born who is Harry's bestfriend. It'll be like killing two birds with one stone for Voldemort who will have the opportunity to torture 3 kinds of people who hates: muggles, muggle born wizards and Harry Potter. Except it'll be more personal because it'll be none other than Harry Potter's bestfriend, Hermione Granger, and her muggle parents. Greicy, who doesn't want Hermione, or her parents, to die From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Mar 17 16:52:44 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 16:52:44 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggle Trouble References: Message-ID: <3E75FD5C.000001.42337@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 53885 Jack said - >From reading recent posts, it looks like a lot of people agree that some sort of Muggle mishap is going to happen. Whether a Muggle is killed or kidnapped, it will probably be a Muggle we have heard about. I was trying to think of possible Muggles who might be in trouble. But, there really has not been very many Muggles presented in the first books. Here are a few off the top of my head: The Dursleys The Grangers Piers Polkiss Aunt Marge Mr. Dursley's Boss & Boss' Wife I would like to get a more comprehensive list of Muggles if possible. And maybe some comments about their probable danger in future books. Me - I can't really see JKR killing off the Dursleys. They're such cartoon-cutout-ish stupid people that it wouldn't ave any kind of emotional impact on the reader and it wouldn't serve to show how evil the muggle-tormenting Death Eters are. I would think that a large number of readers wouldn't care - especially the younger ones and it wouldn't really help to enforce the moral good v evil tone of her story. I'm not saying it's less wrong to kill them because they're nasty - just that it wouldn't have the same impact. Same goes for everyone on that list except the Grangers. While we don't know them, we do know Hermione and killing her family would have an emotional impact because we'd feel for her. Same goes for Seamus' father and Dean's family. Also Justin Fitch-Fletcley's family (of course having been petrified by a basilisk only a few books ago it'd be a bit unfair on the kid since we know very little about him). Depending how much of an impact she's going for I think Hermione's family and Dean and Seamus' families are in the most danger. Possibly Seamus' the most actually now I come to think of it because it's an example of a witch/wizard marrying a muggle, same as Harry and Voldemort. I could see why Voldemort would want to target magic/muggle families most of all and because it's a parallel to Harry's half-blood status it could be used to make a big impact. Yes on the whole, thinking it over, I think Seamus' family are about to have a very nasty accident (possibly Seamus too). K From dorigen at hotmail.com Mon Mar 17 16:58:37 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 16:58:37 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bad stuff for Hermione Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53886 >This whole Rita Skeeter business is going to ruin Hermione one way >or another. It makes me uneasy. Hermione can't be right all the >time. She'll finally realize that she can't solve everything the >way she wants it to be solved. Skeeter will more than likely bring >attention to Hermione as, not only Harry's "love interest", but also >as a muggle born who is Harry's bestfriend. It'll be like killing >two birds with one stone for Voldemort who will have the opportunity >to torture 3 kinds of people who hates: muggles, muggle born wizards >and Harry Potter. Except it'll be more personal because it'll be >none other than Harry Potter's bestfriend, Hermione Granger, and >her muggle parents. I agree that the loathesome Rita Skeeter will probably cause trouble for Hermione (and Harry and Ron). However, everyone already knows that a) Hermione is muggle born and b) that she's a close friend of Harry's, so I don't think an article by Rita Skeeter will be the catalyst if Voldemort *does* decide to target Hermione or her parents. Besides, people who believe everything they read in the *Daily Prophet* already think Harry and Hermione are, or have been, an item -- but whatever else Voldemort is, he's not stupid, so he probably gives Rita Skeeter's articles about as much credence as we give the *National Enquirer.* (Or less so. In the Harry Potter universe, a lot of the stuff that gets into the *National Enquirer* is probably muggle sightings of wizardly activities.) Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From jodel at aol.com Mon Mar 17 18:31:38 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 13:31:38 EST Subject: Krum the transfer student? Message-ID: <122.202f7100.2ba76e8a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53887 Well, I am one of the (majority?) who think that Krum was probably in his last year of school for GoF, but what the hell. I'll make a stab at this myself. There are FOUR houses at Hogwarts, people. Why is the problem of where Krum would be sorted being seen only in terms of Slytherin (because he was a guest there) or Gryffindor? >From what we've seen of him, does he ACT like a Gryffindor? (Well, maybe Neville...) Does he ACT like a Slytherin? (None of them that we've met.) WHat do we really know about his underlying character? He caught the snitch in order to end a match so his Country and his *Team* would not lose too much face in a situation when they were clearly outmatched. (Bulgaria had probably only qualified for the World Cup because their tactics had so intimidated the teams they had met in the earlier matches. It is very hard to believe that, even with Krum -- who truly is star material in the air -- they had really gotten there on merit.) How do we know he wouldn't land in Hufflepuff? (Which is down a Seeker.) For that matter, the boy is inarticulate, but not unintellegent. How do we know that he wouldn't land in Ravenclaw? (Whose current Seeker, poor girl, is probably somewhat "off her game" this year. Hm. Krum/Cho would certainly solve a lot of people's problems, wouldn't it?) -JOdel (Who also agrees that, having played on the National level it is unlikely that Krum will be permitted to play on any House team.) From mbarclay at lee.edu Mon Mar 17 16:22:24 2003 From: mbarclay at lee.edu (Barclay, Maggie) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 10:22:24 -0600 Subject: Ron!Dumbledore Message-ID: <8F497E280916D4119B0100A0C9EA53E7021D59EE@leonardo.lee.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 53888 I know this is a very late post, but with spring break and all, I'm just getting back. I've had a lot of fun with this theory over my break. I keep imagining a scene in which Dumbledore visits the Weasleys after Ron's birth. The visit seems plausible enough, after all, it is implied that Dumbledore and the Weasleys were working together before Voldemort's fall. Anyway, Dumbledore asks if he could hold Ron that is what adults are expected to do when there is a new baby in the house. A strange look passes over Dumbledore's face. Of course he would have a strange look, right? Imagine holding an infant form of yourself. Arthur notices the look, and all of a sudden notices an eerie resemblance between his newest son and Dumbledore. Imagine the screaming fight between Arthur and Molly. I wonder if there is a magical equivalent of a paternity test . . . Mags [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From llilling at aol.com Mon Mar 17 16:38:09 2003 From: llilling at aol.com (lhlhoward) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 16:38:09 -0000 Subject: Percy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53889 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "iwishiwerehermione" wrote: > Laurence Lilling: > > I feel that Percy is the person who is going to die. > > I've also been thinking about this and I agree Percy seems a likely > choice. The Weasleys are all "fans" of Harry's. A possible storyline > in my mind is that order-and-rule loving Percy blindly follows Fudge > on his assumption that the Minister for Magic couldn't possibly be > wrong about the rise of Voldemort. I am viewing Fudge's blindness > towards the impending confrontation to be a clue that he knows what's > happening and is a Voldemort supporter. Perhaps Percy will follow > Fudge, causing a rift in the Weasley family, and refuses to see the > truth until it is too late, ultimately resulting in his death. > > "iwishiwerehermione" That is basicaly the way I thought it could happen, although Ihad not even considered the idea that Fudge could be on the side of Lord Voldemort. Another possible victim that I came up with is McGonagal for the same reasons as Percy. She is mostly a fan of Harry, She has been in all for books, and as a teacher it would not only be difficult for Hogwarts o get along without her, but it would also be difficult for Rowling to write. from Laurence Lilling From realbadger at earthlink.net Mon Mar 17 17:22:26 2003 From: realbadger at earthlink.net (Badger) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 17:22:26 -0000 Subject: Betryal (was Rowling and Philosophy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53890 << TW: On Hagrid: you know, I'd like to point out that Hagrid is not without fault here - he holds Slytherin house in deep disregard and maligns them at the drop of a hat >> Hagrid also did begin to defend Hufflepuff, indicating while "Everyone" calls them "a load of duffers," his defensive "but" is interupted before he can continue. << TW: On prejudice: HRH may not be prejudiced against Muggle borns, but that's not because they're so virtuous. Both Harry and Hermione ARE half-bloods, and Ron's Dad loves muggles. So, are they accepting of themselves? Yes. By association, do they accept other Muggleborns? Yes. >> Harry is a full wizard, Lily and James being witch and wizard. Harry could be considered more like a quarter(or less)-Muggle. Lily was a witch to an otherwise full Muggle family. I'm not sure if James came from a "pure" wizarding family, but Ron accurately points out if WW folk didn't pair with Muggles they'd have all died out (not to mention the eventual [if not already the case], inbreeding [the same families intermarrying to "retain purity"]...). For a time I mis-read in CoS as Harry being half-Muggle/Muggle-born, when actually the Muggle-born to which was being referred was Lily. realbadger, a loyal Hufflepuff geoffreygould.notlong.com From julia at thequiltbug.com Mon Mar 17 20:24:58 2003 From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 12:24:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron!Dumbledore Message-ID: <20030317122458.2921.h014.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53891 "Barclay, Maggie" wrote: > Of course he would have a strange look, right? Imagine > holding an infant form of yourself. Arthur notices the look, and all of a > sudden notices an eerie resemblance between his newest son and Dumbledore. > Imagine the screaming fight between Arthur and Molly. I wonder if there is > a magical equivalent of a paternity test . . . Oh, my, that is a very scary picture. Arthur accusing Molly of cheating on him with Dumbledore (who is actually his son...) I can't imagine the scene. Calliope http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/ http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ From Ali at zymurgy.org Mon Mar 17 20:48:45 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 20:48:45 -0000 Subject: An odd musing about Harry's attitude In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53892 Hobbitguy wrote: >>>Harry's treatment of authority figures he doesn't like. I've noticed that if Harry doesn't like a person who is in authority, he shows complete disrespect to them; this despite any qualifications they may have or any reasons that they SHOULD be respected. (The Dursleys and Snape) but they are still in authority over him, and he ought to treat them with SOME respect. Snape is a teacher and a learned (possibly very much so) man, and he has SAVED HARRY'S LIFE. The Dursleys may have treated Harry badly, but they did take him in; Now, maybe I was brought up oddly, but I distinctly remember my parents drilling "respect your elders" into me for as long as I can remember. Harry's had almost the opposite lesson, it seems; from his actions, it looks like he learned "respect those elders who are nice to you and whom you like." )<<< I don't know whether this is a cultural thing, but I think in general we Brits appear to be much less deferential towards our elders than the average American. My parents and grandparents were certainly taught to respect their elders, but I wasn't. To me, respect is something to be earned, not given on a platter because somebody happens to be older than me. Now, my father was a Head Teacher, and I was certainly taught to be polite etc and do as I was told, but respect is something different (IMHO). The Dursleys may well be in authority over Harry, but to date, Harry has seen nothing to justify respecting them. He believes an orphanage upbringing would have been better than the way the Dursleys brought him up. So the fact that Aunt Marge would not have taken Harry in, but the Dursleys did is irrelevant; they did still abuse him. Should he really respect people, who acting as Legal Guardians kept him shut in a cupboard and deprived him of love and friendship? He might well discover in OoP and beyond that the Dursleys do justify some respect and even gratitude, but I can't see that he should respect them just yet. Snape is a different kettle of fish. Snape established the relationship between himself and Harry, and in some ways is responsible for Harry's attitude towards him. Nevertheless, I do agree that Harry should have thanked him for saving his life in PS/SS. In fact, I find the failure to mention any kind of acknowledgement of Snape's actions as strange and do wonder why. Harry should certainly re-examine his view of Snape post GoF. Ali From huntleyl at mssm.org Tue Mar 18 00:18:49 2003 From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 19:18:49 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: An odd musing about Harry's attitude References: Message-ID: <002101c2ece3$f32ae080$3a01a8c0@huntleyl> No: HPFGUIDX 53893 > Hobbitguy wrote: > > >>>Harry's treatment of authority figures he doesn't like. > I've noticed that if Harry doesn't like a person who is in > authority, he shows complete disrespect to them; this despite any > qualifications they may have or any reasons that they SHOULD be > respected. > > (The Dursleys and Snape) > but they are still in authority over him, and > he ought to treat them with SOME respect. Snape is a teacher and a > learned (possibly very much so) man, and he has SAVED HARRY'S LIFE. > The Dursleys may have treated Harry badly, but they did take him in; > > Now, maybe I was brought up oddly, but I distinctly remember my > parents drilling "respect your elders" into me for as long as I can > remember. Harry's had almost the opposite lesson, it seems; from > his actions, it looks like he learned "respect those elders who are > nice to you and whom you like." )<<< ^_~ I agree with you completely. Harry *has* had an opposite lesson. Or, that is, no lesson at all. Tell me, who exactly in Harry's childhood (pre-Hogwarts, that is - I'm afraid any personal habits or tendencies are firmly ingrained by age eleven and will take a long time to root out) would have taught him values such as respect for elders? Personally, I believe Harry has impeccable manners for someone with his upbringing. Actually, I don't even think Harry's outward manners are that bad to begin with. Even when Snape was at his worst (the "I see no difference" incident) Harry *thought* some pretty awful things, but he never actually did any of them. And really, while I *do* believe that one ought to be polite, courteous, and "respectful" to *everyone*, I think Respect itself is something that is earned. So I don't think Harry's rebellious thoughts are anything to criticize - and, given some of the circumstances, I would completely understand if he *acted* on some of his less "respectful" tendencies. Which he generally doesn't. ^_^ Laura From daisywcck at aol.com Tue Mar 18 00:30:13 2003 From: daisywcck at aol.com (daisywcck at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 19:30:13 EST Subject: Could Dumbledore Really Be Evil? Message-ID: <147.d2a6808.2ba7c295@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53894 A few friends of mine has brought it to my attention that "Dumbledore is stronger and more powerful than Lord Voldermort." Of course I naturally agreed, but when they elaborated, I was a bit confused. In the 4th book, when Harry is recalling the events after the TriWizard Task (#3), Harry tells Dumbledore about the use of his (harry's) blood in the potion(or whatever) that restores Voldermort. Harry tells Dumbledore that Pettigrew had used his blood to enable Voldermort to touch him. In the book... "He said my blood would make him stronger than if he'd used someone else's," Harry told Dumbledore. "He said the protection my-my mother left in me-he'd have it too. And he was right- he could touch me without hurting himself, he touched my face." For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. But next second, Harry was sure he had imagined it, for when Dumbledore had returned to his seat behind the desk, he looked as old and weary as Harry had ever seen him." What do you all think? Any theories/ideas on this subject? (I'm really evil.... I'm making my drama students write essays for extra credit on this subject and other HP theories.) Katherine [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Tue Mar 18 06:51:25 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 06:51:25 -0000 Subject: Could Dumbledore Really Be Evil? In-Reply-To: <147.d2a6808.2ba7c295@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53895 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, daisywcck at a... wrote: > For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something > like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. Look in these two sources: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.h tm http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/puzzles.html#gleam From carrie525 at mybluelight.com Tue Mar 18 04:02:22 2003 From: carrie525 at mybluelight.com (Carrie S) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 20:02:22 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: An odd musing about Harry's attitude References: Message-ID: <009901c2ed03$2f3236e0$1e105142@net> No: HPFGUIDX 53896 Hi to everyone, here are a few of my thoughts on thie issue of Harry's 'tude. Hobbitguy writes: Harry's treatment of authority figures he doesn't like. I've noticed that if Harry doesn't like a person who is in authority, he shows complete disrespect to them; this despite any qualifications they may have or any reasons that they SHOULD be respected. I can think of two examples off the top of my head: The Dursleys, and Snape. *************Me: Jon & others, Dead on. I noticed the first time around reading that Harry was getting an attitude problem! I love the kid, but still. I think I picked up on it right away only because I am a Mom with a son. ; ) Personally, I give Harry the Dursley's. He treats them how they treat him. But Snape, no. He's a teacher and Harry has to learn to deal with him, the other students do - poor Neville. I remember after the Pensieve Harry asks Dumbledore something and he says "Snape". Dumbledore corrects him..."Professor Snape". So we aren't the only ones noticing this! =) I think Harry might have been rude to Gilderoy as well, but he was just too self consumed to notice. He is often rude to Trelawney. On his first day of broom lessons he disobeys a pretty straightforward instruction from Madame Hootch. But I think this goes right along with Harry's attitude that he can break the rules, pretty much all the time. He sneaks around the castle. Leaves the castle. Tries to catch his teachers doing stuff. It seems to be his character that he feels he is above the rules...Snape is right in that account. It seems to never occur to HHR to take a problem to Dumbledore or McGonnagall. Like the students are better able to solve the problems. Well, then again....if HHR didn't feel this way, the books would be a lot shorter and less interesting...... Carrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladyfarro at attbi.com Mon Mar 17 22:49:26 2003 From: ladyfarro at attbi.com (kae) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 14:49:26 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: An odd musing about Harry's attitude References: Message-ID: <006301c2ed0a$ead6d980$3caae10c@attbi.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53897 The Dursley family weren't what I would call great role models for Harry to emulate. The few times that Dudley was ever disciplined were rare. ""Dudley was sniffling in the back seat; his father had hit him round the head for holding them up while he tried to pack his television, VCR, and computer in his sports bag." Chapter Three The Letters from No one Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone." The Dursleys demonstrated that in order to get what you want, you bully your way through life. Dudley learned that if he threw tantrums he would get his Mother to do anything he wanted (except for the time that Harry moved his belongings from the cupboard under the stairs, to the bedroom where Dudley threw his broken and discarded toys)! Teachers, and other school officials seemed more concerned about making certain they didn't offend the Dursleys than what Harry Potter might be doing. He had no school friends, because of Dudley and his gang; he wore cast-off clothing, taped glasses made strange things happened. It wasn't until Hagrid came into his life and told him about himself, and gave him confidence to be more than a cast off commodity that Harry began to believe that he was a worthwhile human being. Harry left the mundane world to live in a world where he interacted with youngsters his own age; he learned that there are choices we make, and those choices can impact us forever. The teachers and staff at Hogwarts filled an important hole in Harry's life. Even Snape who was a brilliant potion master taught the importance of doing a job right. In spite of people we don't like, we do the very best we can, and we are better for it. Life doesn't always deal fairly; but we can either succeed or fail. And in spite of the Dursleys, Harry became a better person. Lady Farro From rona_patterson at yahoo.com Tue Mar 18 04:57:07 2003 From: rona_patterson at yahoo.com (Rona Patterson) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 20:57:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Could Dumbledore Really Be Evil? In-Reply-To: <147.d2a6808.2ba7c295@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030318045707.85249.qmail@web9203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53898 daisywcck at aol.com wrote: A few friends of mine has brought it to my attention that "Dumbledore is stronger and more powerful than Lord Voldermort." Of course I naturally agreed, but when they elaborated, I was a bit confused. In the 4th book, when Harry is recalling the events after the TriWizard Task (#3), Harry tells Dumbledore about the use of his (harry's) blood in the potion(or whatever) that restores Voldermort. Harry tells Dumbledore that Pettigrew had used his blood to enable Voldermort to touch him. In the book... "He said my blood would make him stronger than if he'd used someone else's," Harry told Dumbledore. "He said the protection my-my mother left in me-he'd have it too. And he was right- he could touch me without hurting himself, he touched my face." For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. But next second, Harry was sure he had imagined it, for when Dumbledore had returned to his seat behind the desk, he looked as old and weary as Harry had ever seen him." What do you all think? Any theories/ideas on this subject? (I'm really evil.... I'm making my drama students write essays for extra credit on this subject and other HP theories.) Katherine Rona says: Yes of course Dumbledore could be evil. My thoughts are that Dumbledore did find 12 uses of Dragons blood and maybe he was studying how human blood can be used and maybe proved to be an important theory we haven't heard of as of now. I really want to think that Dumbledore is good and it was a look of inspiration and not evil intent. rona ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From uncmark at yahoo.com Tue Mar 18 08:13:58 2003 From: uncmark at yahoo.com (Mark D.) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 08:13:58 -0000 Subject: When do werewolves change? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53899 OK, found a critical flaw in Prisoner of Azkaban. Professor Lupin does not change into a werewolf until the group emerges from the tunnel from the Shrieking Shack. When the clouds part and he sees moonlight Lupin morphs. Imagine my horror when I thought I found a mistake in JKR's logic far worse than the order of Harry's parents emerging from the wands in GoF. Dumbledore sent Harry and Hermione back at 11:55 "It is five minutes to midnight. Miss Granger, three turns should do it." This would place Lupin's transformation somewhere around 9:30 to 10. Moonrise of the full moon is at 6pm with the moon reaching its zenith at 12 and setting at 6 am. Everybody knows that! Lupin should have been a werewolf a full three hours before Harry and Hermione went back in time! If a werewolf only changes from moonlight, all Lupin really needed to do to prevent his change would be to stay in a windowless room. That would eliminate an important storyline on PoA and the whole tapestry of JKR's Harry Potter begins to unravel... or does it? I have two theories, See what you think 1) Moonrise at Hogwart's is later. Remember it is against mountains and moonrise might well be up to three hours later. or... 2) Werewolves stay werewolves for the full three days of the full moon, not just moon rise to moonset. If you check moon phase charts (as Lupin asked Hermione if she had done) the full moon starts at a certain hour and minute. I'm suggesting that Lupin DID NOT CHANGE because the moon came out from behind the clouds, but because full moon started at that point. Personally, I don't buy the Harry Potter Lexicon's stand of placing the books in the early 1990's. It places PofA in 94-95 which the climactic night of Harry meeting Sirius on June 6 1995. The great flaw with trying to tie a fictional book down to a physical date is that JUNE 6 1995 WAS NOT A FULL MOON!!!! According to the Phases of the moon table, the full moon for June 1995 was on the 26th starting at 11:33 am GMT! Does this make any sense to anyone else? Opinions? From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Tue Mar 18 08:25:31 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jon) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 08:25:31 -0000 Subject: When do werewolves change? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53900 Mark D wrote: > Personally, I don't buy the Harry Potter Lexicon's stand of placing > the books in the early 1990's. It places PofA in 94-95 which the > climactic night of Harry meeting Sirius on June 6 1995. The great > flaw with trying to tie a fictional book down to a physical date is > that JUNE 6 1995 WAS NOT A FULL MOON!!!! According to the Phases of > the moon table, the full moon for June 1995 was on the 26th starting > at 11:33 am GMT! > > Does this make any sense to anyone else? Opinions? I reply: >From what I've seen of public opinion on the inaccuracy of dates in the Potterverse versus dates in the real world, I think the best summary would be, "Ignore it, it's just a book." JKR is a great author and a superb worldweaver, but the dates in her novels just don't match up. AFAIK, the Lexicon uses the date given for Nearly- Headless Nick's Deathday party to place the books in time. I may be wrong on this, but I think that's the only stated date, year-wise, on record in the Potterverse. However, if this is right, the date of chapter 2 in SS (Oct. 31) doesn't fall on a Tuesday, which is stated in the books. My thoughts are, don't try to get the things pinned down in the real world, you'll just give yourself a headache. Hobbit-guy, who finished the whole time-travel discussion too recently to willingly take another headache. From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 18 09:29:35 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 09:29:35 -0000 Subject: Dates and Re: When do werewolves change? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53901 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jon" wrote: > Mark D wrote: > > > Personally, I don't buy the Harry Potter Lexicon's stand of > placing > > the books in the early 1990's. It places PofA in 94-95 which the > > climactic night of Harry meeting Sirius on June 6 1995. The > > great flaw with trying to tie a fictional book down to a > > physical date is that JUNE 6 1995 WAS NOT A FULL MOON!!!! > > According to the Phases of the moon table, the full moon for > >June 1995 was on the 26th starting at 11:33 am GMT! > > > > Does this make any sense to anyone else? Opinions? > > Jon (Hobbit guy)replies > > From what I've seen of public opinion on the inaccuracy of dates > in the Potterverse versus dates in the real world, I think the > best summary would be, "Ignore it, it's just a book." Yup. The dates don't match. Further, whatever year you pick for the start of the books, the dates cannot all be made to match. I don't have a problem with this. JKR is telling a story, and wasn't bothered (and probably never imagined anyone else would ever bother) about exact dates. If you want to *not* ignore it, then either a) dates in the WW do not correspond exactly to the Muggle calendar or b) the books as we have them were written by someone in the WW after the actual events. For example, perhaps the part of each book that's from Harry's pov is based on an account written by Harry (during his miserable summer holidays). It wouldn't be terribly surprising if he couldn't remember the precise dates. He doesn't seem to keep a diary; probably all he'd remember is that this event happened before that event and it might have been a Tuesday... was it June 6th? Or June 16th? And so on. Lupin changing to a werewolf at around 9:30 pm ish is also not really a problem. There is a very precise moment when the moon changes officially to 'full', and this time may well not coincide with the moonrise. Another alternative is that Lupin had taken Wolfsbane potion the night before; while it couldn't protect him against being caught in full moonlight in the open, it was protecting him against the change while he was inside. Arguing against this is Lupin's description, which suggests that he still transforms, just keeps his human mind. Pip From naama_gat at hotmail.com Tue Mar 18 11:55:43 2003 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 11:55:43 -0000 Subject: An odd musing about Harry's attitude In-Reply-To: <009901c2ed03$2f3236e0$1e105142@net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53902 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carrie S" wrote: > But I think this goes right along with Harry's attitude that he > can break the rules, pretty much all the time. He sneaks around the > castle. Leaves the castle. Tries to catch his teachers doing stuff. > It seems to be his character that he feels he is above the > rules...Snape is right in that account. It seems to never occur to > HHR to take a problem to Dumbledore or McGonnagall. Like the students are better able to solve the problems. > > Well, then again....if HHR didn't feel this way, the books would > be a lot shorter and less interesting...... > Well, not so much shorter as inexistent .... I'm sorry, but these kind of accusations against Harry - that he's disrespectful, that he thinks he's above the rules - they go totally against JKR's world view. And that's ok. You don't have to accept the author's code of morality. But it doesn't make sense to accuse a character in this case - accuse the writer for portraying a good character in a way that doesn't agree with what you perceieve as moral or moral enough. ALL of Harry's escapades, rule breaking, etc. (except for his trips to Hogsmeade) are GOOD, within the framework of JKR's imaginary world. Whether you approve of rule breaking or not, JKR does approve of it, *when it serves a higher good.* Not only does she approve of it, she despises people who blindly follow rules. This she sees as just another form of cowardice (see Fudge). So, comparing Harry and Ron's impersonation of Crabbe and Goyle to Draco's attempt to sabotage a Quidditch game (it appeared in somebody's previous post) goes completely against the way they are presented in the books. Again, whatever you may think of rule breaking, JKR thinks that what Ron and Harry did was an act of heroism. What Draco did, OTOH, is a mean, vicious attempt at cheating. You of course may see it differently than she does. The Australian prime minster (whose name I don't remember) said today something like: I understand people who have reservations about the war, but please, it you do, bring your beef to me, bring your beef to the goverment, but don't bring your beef to the soldiers. In the same vein: bring your beef to JKR, but don't bring your beef to Harry, who is being as good a little character as he can be. :-) Naama From trinity61us at yahoo.com Tue Mar 18 08:27:31 2003 From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 00:27:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] problem with wererwolves( WAS When do werewolves change?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030318082731.37746.qmail@web14902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53903 Did anyone else notice that even though Sirius was bitten by Werewolfy/Remus he suffers no werewolf effects? As in BECOMING one? Does this have something to do with the Animagus effect? I thought that if you were bitten by a werewolf, you became one. Thoughts? Alex, Curling up next to Severus From imhotep1 at rcn.com Tue Mar 18 10:09:27 2003 From: imhotep1 at rcn.com (imhotep1) Date: 18 Mar 2003 02:09:27 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: An odd musing about Harry's attitude In-Reply-To: <009901c2ed03$2f3236e0$1e105142@net> References: <009901c2ed03$2f3236e0$1e105142@net> Message-ID: <1047982167.16795.119.camel@princess> No: HPFGUIDX 53904 Carrie wrote: > But Snape, no. He's a teacher and Harry has to learn to > deal with him, the other students do - poor Neville. I remember after > the Pensieve Harry asks Dumbledore something and he says "Snape". > Dumbledore corrects him..."Professor Snape". So we aren't the only > ones noticing this! =) I think Harry might have been rude to Gilderoy > as well, but he was just too self consumed to notice. He is often rude > to Trelawney. On his first day of broom lessons he disobeys a pretty > straightforward instruction from Madame Hootch. > > But I think this goes right along with Harry's attitude that he > can break the rules, pretty much all the time. He sneaks around the > castle. Leaves the castle. Tries to catch his teachers doing stuff. > It seems to be his character that he feels he is above the > rules...Snape is right in that account. It seems to never occur to > HHR to take a problem to Dumbledore or McGonnagall. Like the students > are better able to solve the problems. I think everyone is sort of in agreement that the Dursleys get what they deserve, but the Snape issue is the peculiar one to me. When I read through the books I kept wondering why didn't Harry just sit down with Snape and voice his issues, trying to make peace with him (after, of course, he learned Snape wasn't tying to kill him.) By the end of PA I was wondering why he didn't grab Dumbledore and Snape, sit them both down, and ask what the heck is going on, tell me the whole story, I want to know everything and work with you guys instead of sneaking around behind your backs. Of course, I am not 14. In fact, when I think back to when I was, I think Harry is rather mature for his age, and very responsible. I would have performed much more poorly in his position. Adults are allowed to break the rules when a more important need arises, yet we expect children to follow these rules explicitly. For example, adults tell children that fighting is bad, and to resolve their problems through talking. Adults, however, feel fully justified when they do such things as going to war. Another example is we tell children to follow any instructions they are given, but we hold war criminals accountable even if they were "just following orders." When exactly do we expect children to make the leap from blindly following adult rules to making exceptions based on the situation. I don't think it's fair to assume this happens magically at age 18. HHR are at that age when they are learning what it means to think for them selves, and to make their own moral judgments regardless to the explicit rules that are laid out for them. Sometimes they make good decisions, and sometimes they make poor ones (such as Harry's continued distrust of Snape.) However we judge them, I think it's only fair to at least picture ourselves in their shoes, at their age, and ask what we would have done. Remember that they are Gryffindor, and as the sorting hat says, "Gryffindor, Where dwell the brave at heart, Their daring, nerve, and chivalry Set Gryffindors apart," when Harry breaks Madame Hooch's rule during that first lesson, he did it because he is naturally a brave soul who stands for his friends. A Ravenclaw in the same situation might have run and informed a teacher (that would be the wise thing to do, and Ravenclaw are noted for their wisdom,) but Harry is Gryffindor, and he does what he believes if right. I don't think he ever believes he is above the rules, but I do believe he sometimes feels that the situation at hand outweigh the rules. At the end of GoF Dumbledore is leading the lot of them (HHR, Hagrid, Snape, etc.) in a battle vs. Voldemort AGAINST the wishes of MoM, and possibly, if you fall into the Evil!Fudge crowd, against MoM itself. This is Dumbledore, the wisest, kindest character in the book, showing the children that sometimes the situation at hand outweighs any specific rules. No, they aren't perfect, and they make stupid, childish decisions some times, but they are children, and I think it's a little silly if we forget to bear that in mind. The zenit.org article that MarEphraim posted a link to in this thread (message 53874) (just to make this a more philosophical discussion and a little less a child psychology one) When discussing if the Potter books encourage relativism states that, "...the books clearly assume that goods such as love and truth are objective. But generally the complaints about the Potter books focus not on any real evil deeds, but on infractions such as breaking the school curfew; and these cases of rule-breaking are overwhelmingly attempts to block some great harm." i.e. rules can be broken if your motives are good. This isn't something you teach young children, because they don't understand enough about how the world works to make informed judgments, but at some point they have to start learning, and I think when the evil sorcerer who killed your parents comes after you, that's as good a time as any to start bending a few rules. -Jeremy From oppen at mycns.net Tue Mar 18 13:02:47 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 07:02:47 -0600 Subject: Harry and respect Message-ID: <001f01c2ed55$d0cd1720$ab560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 53905 To put it bluntly, learned colleagues, I don't blame Harry a bit for not always being perfectly respectful of his elders. Quite a few of those elders do not behave in ways that deserve respect, and I have always believed that respect must be earned, not just "strewn gratis on the common ground, like pearls before grunting swine." The Dursleys have long since forfeited any claim to Harry's respect. About the only way they haven't been abusive to him, as far as we know, is physical abuse---beatings, s*xual assault, and the like. Otherwise, they've treated him worse than they would a servant, and made it very clear to him that they resent him and wish he wasn't there. Frankly, had I been pre-Hogwarts-letter Harry, I'd have been of the opinion that I'd be better off as one of Fagin's apprentices in _Oliver Twist_ than at the Dursleys'. (The unbiassed reader of _Oliver Twist_ can come away with the feeling that there are things to be said for Fagin's establishment, from Oliver's POV---enough food, a fair chance of not being wantonly flogged, and cheerful companions count for a lot.) As for Professor Snape---from the first day of classes with him, Professor Snape goes out of his way to behave like a complete, utter jerk to Harry. While we fans have a lot of theories to defend, or excuse, the man (LOLLIPOPS springs to mind here), it doesn't change the fact that, unprovoked by Harry, Snape deliberately embarrasses him in front of his classmates. As the series goes on, Professor Snape repeatedly behaves in a way unworthy of an adult, much less a professional and a teacher. While there may well be good reasons for his behavior, _Harry doesn't know about them!_ (Poor Harry---if he could only subscribe to HP4GU!) To Harry, Professor Snape is an obnoxious bully, less of a physical threat than Dudley's gang, but otherwise not dissimilar. I "hae me doots" that Professor Snape is anything like as much of a jerk to his colleagues, if only because they _aren't_ forbidden to strike back, and are full-fledged wizards and witches themselves. If, for example, he tried treating Professor McGonagall as obnoxiously as he does the Trio, he might get a chance to find out what being bounced off walls in ferret form would feel like--and serve him right. "Miss Manners" has said, in one of her books, that merely because someone's younger than you and related to you does _not_ make it open season on them for rudeness. That goes double, triple and with horseradish sauce on it for teacher-to-pupil interactions. The essence of bullying, after all, is doing things that one normally would not, because of a perceived lack of risk of retaliation in kind. A bully does not have to be an overgrown street kid, although that is one common type. Anybody who abuses a position of superiority is IMNSHO a bully. And yes, that does mean the Dursleys, and Professor Snape---and, for the record, Fake-Moody when he bounces Draco-the-ferret off the walls. From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Mar 18 13:09:38 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 13:09:38 -0000 Subject: problem with wererwolves( WAS When do werewolves change?) In-Reply-To: <20030318082731.37746.qmail@web14902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53906 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, alex fox wrote: > > Did anyone else notice that even though Sirius was bitten by Werewolfy/Remus he suffers no werewolf effects? As in BECOMING one? Does this have something to do with the Animagus effect? I thought that if you were bitten by a werewolf, you became one. Thoughts? > Well, the thing was that it was dog/wolf headlock, not exactly a bite. Sirius didn't *bleed* from that spot. A human bitten *would* be bleeding (At least I've never heard of anyone bitten by a dog who did not bleed). A nip maybe, "carrying" touch of teeth... but no broken skin, no bleeding. Also, I think Lupin changes periodically, and exactly on *that* phase when he himself was bitten. -- Finwitch From jentifred at spamcop.net Tue Mar 18 13:25:38 2003 From: jentifred at spamcop.net (Jennifer Angliss) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 06:25:38 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] When do werewolves change? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030318061129.00982270@mail.spamcop.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53907 At 01:13 AM 03/18/2003 , Mark D. wrote: >OK, found a critical flaw in Prisoner of Azkaban. Professor Lupin >does not change into a werewolf until the group emerges from the >tunnel from the Shrieking Shack. When the clouds part and he sees >moonlight Lupin morphs. >Imagine my horror when I thought I found a mistake in JKR's logic >far worse than the order of Harry's parents emerging from the wands >in GoF. >Dumbledore sent Harry and Hermione back at 11:55 "It is five minutes >to midnight. Miss Granger, three turns should do it." >This would place Lupin's transformation somewhere around 9:30 to 10. >Moonrise of the full moon is at 6pm with the moon reaching its >zenith at 12 and setting at 6 am. Everybody knows that! Lupin should >have been a werewolf a full three hours before Harry and Hermione >went back in time! The full moon does not always rise at 6pm. A full moon rises at approximately sunset. Sunset in June in Scotland would be quite late (10pm perhaps?) so a full moon rising that late would be perfectly normal. On the other hand, Buckbeak was to have been executed at sunset and Lupin transformed a couple of hours later, so it might just be that the clouds parted at the precise instant that the moon became sufficiently full for him to transform. Jennifer From imhotep1 at rcn.com Tue Mar 18 13:43:20 2003 From: imhotep1 at rcn.com (imhotep1) Date: 18 Mar 2003 05:43:20 -0800 Subject: What do wizards do? Message-ID: <1047995001.16795.242.camel@princess> No: HPFGUIDX 53908 I have been wondering what exactly wizards DO with their time. I mean, I know they must work and have jobs, but I can't think of there being enough non-muggle jobs for all of them. Here's my logic: First we need a rough estimate of the wizard population. I start with two liberal assumptions: JKR is right about there being 1000 students at Hogwarts, and that the average wizard lives to about 200 years old. This leads to the following equation: 1000 students / 7 years = 143 students per year 143 students per year * 200 years = 28,600 wizards 1430 children (143 per year * the ten years until they get to Hogwarts) aren't in school yet (assuming that Hogwarts is the only Wizarding school,) plus the 1000 students at Hogwarts equals 2,430 children who aren't yet in the wizarding work force. This leaves 26,170 adult wizard of working age (assuming no post graduate work after Hogwarts) Also bear in mind that some (probably small) percentage of them are squibs. We know that a large number of wizards are employed with MoM. The exact number of which is uncertain (although my math suggests that there are 4 wizards to every 10,000 muggles in the Britain + Ireland (the area over which Hogwarts is supposed to be the reigning school) which is .04%, so if someone knew the number of people in the British and Irish governments and civil services, perhaps we could make a reasonable estimate of the size of MoM) We know they have an entertainment industry. It doesn't seem to be that large, but looking at the ratio again (.04% of the British + Irish population) the one band (Weird Sisters,) one form of radio (Wizarding Wireless Network), one comic book (The Adventures of Martin Miggs, the Mad Muggle,) one newspaper (The Daily Prophet) and one non-trade magazine (Witch Weekly,) might be all the population needs. We know there are at least 91 (13 teams * 7 players) people employed to play professional quidditch, and probably a support staff (coaches, reserve players, broom boys, ... ) We can assume that a bunch of people work in publishing, as there are quite a few books around. We can also assume that there are people who work in advertising and publicity. In order for Ron's room to be decked out in Chudley Cannons merchandise, someone must have produced it. We should not forget the medical practice, of which we know many people are employed, notably the school nurse, Madam Poppy Pomfrey, and the mediwizards at the quidditch world cup. There are those who are fortunate enough to own their own business (the shops of Diagon and Knockturn alleys, and in Hogsmeade.) There are also housewives (and presumably house-husbands,) like Molly Weasley. Being as so far we haven't seen any divorced families in the potterverse, perhaps there are more stay-at-home parents in it. Then there are the trades. As noted in the lexicon, the magazine "Transfiguration Today" implies there might be magazines for the other types of magic, which implies they might be trade magazines of sorts. This would, of course, imply technical trades for the wizarding world. I think the most important one would be enchanters (or whatever the noun form of "one who makes a living by putting charms on things" is) Everything in the wizard world seems to be enchanted, and someone has to do all of this work. Simple enchantments might be done at home, but anything complex would be done by a professional enchanter. Transfigurations is also probably quite important, as this would be the closest to some sort of magical construction technique they have (turn this stick into a finely crafted broom handle...) Finally there are the non-glamorous jobs: conductor of the Knight Bus, driver of the Knight Bus, food service, Hogwarts Express food cart, dishwasher at the Leaky Cauldron, and so fourth. Some of these may be squibs, and some may be Hogwarts graduates with little ambition (or low NEWTs) There might also be a market for farming, because all of those rare herbs and roots have to come from somewhere. What I don't see is enough bottom end production occupations to support the wizarding population. Twenty-six-thousand is a lot of people, and looking at the occupations I have outlined, it seems to me most of them must be employed doing transfigurations and enchantments of things that people want, but of which they can't spend the time (or money, if rare ingredients are involved) I could see this job supporting quite a number of people, but not enough to justify the wizarding population. And what do they actually create. Any population must have some sort of commodity in order to sustain an economy. Their two biggest expenses seem to be the government, and Hogwarts. That part is consistent with muggle life (doesn't everybody's money go to taxes and children) But where do they earn it. Without some sort of worker base (farmers, factory workers, ... ) no one actually produces anything new, so the entire economy would be based on repairing and improving(enchanting) existing things. And we can't just fudge the numbers to make the WW work better. If we start to reduce our estimate (my lowest estimate is 3620 adults in the WW (40 students per year, average lifespan 100, minus 380 children) then things start to get ridiculous (and those 91 quidditch players seem a bit excessive, that's the equivalent of there being 1,632,337 professional soccer (sorry, football) players in Britain + Ireland, or 7,692,307 professional baseball players in the USA (that's about half the population of California) Maybe I'm just off my rocker and none of this matters (kind of like the whole "the dates don't match up" issue,) but does anyone have any ideas. Are their wizard farmers? Do most of the Wizarding folk slave away in wizarding factories enchanting and transfiguring wizarding things for wizarding folk? Do my numbers seem accurate to you, or does half my home state play professional baseball? -Jeremy From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue Mar 18 16:01:41 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 16:01:41 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Dobby=92s_Job_(filk)?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53909 Dobby's Job To the tune of Roxie, from Chicago Dedicated to Ginger Hear a MIDI at: http://www.broadwaymidi.com/shows/chicago.html NOTE: The spoken portions of this song have been omitted THE SCENE: Somewhere in the Wizarding World. The newly liberated DOBBY optimistically scans the classified section of The Daily Prophet, looking for paid employment DOBBY The name emblazed on that paycheck Is gonna be Dobby The career in magic high-tech Is gonna be Dobby's I'm gonna be a great employee That means an elf who does it himself Sendin' my resume their way That takes up one complete bookshelf I'll find some post quite vacant now That's gonna be Dobby's I don't care if it takes all week `Cause since I've left that Malfoy gang My head no longer has to bang Dobby's job he seeks! (Enter CHORUS OF HOUSE ELVES, with tuxedo-like designs crudely painted on their tea towels. They seem somewhat uncertain about their involvement in this particular number) The name impressed on that paycheck Is gonna be CHORUS OF HOUSE ELVES: Dobby DOBBY: The career in magic high-tech Is gonna be CHORUS: Dobby's He's gonna be a great employee DOBBY: That means everything will be my way CHORUS: He's the man with the pension plan And overtime .. DOBBY: ...401(k) Ooh, ah ah ah There is some post quite vacant now That's gonna be Sing it! CHORUS: Dobby's DOBBY: For house-elf freedom I now speak CHORUS: And who in case he doesn't starve DOBBY & CHORUS An ever-lasting niche will carve Dobby's job he seeks! CHORUS: He's gonna wait for a long time To get some work, Dobby DOBBY: I'll soon be earnin' that first dime CHORUS Fat chance for you, Dobby DOBBY: And with composure, me in my hosiery I'll go all the way straight to the top CHORUS: Such a thing, such a thing Dobby's such a ding-a-ling DOBBY: I'll have my own bucket and mop CHORUS: Oh, yeah. He's giving up the house-elf life DOBBY: I'm gonna be . CHORUS: Dobby. His prospects look completely bleak DOBBY: But Lucius Malfoy would have a cow If only he could see me now DOBBY & CHORUS: Dobby's job he seeks CHORUS: Chuh, chuh, chuh, etc... DOBBY: Oooh ah ah ah ah ah ah . (Exit DOBBY & CHORUS, vanishing with a loud crack) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From seventhsqueal at yahoo.com Tue Mar 18 16:12:46 2003 From: seventhsqueal at yahoo.com (SeventhSqueal) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 08:12:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: An odd musing about Harry's attitude In-Reply-To: <1047982167.16795.119.camel@princess> Message-ID: <20030318161246.64466.qmail@web10707.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53910 --- imhotep1 wrote: > I think everyone is sort of in agreement that the > Dursleys get what they deserve, but the Snape issue is the peculiar one to me. When I read through the books I kept wondering why didn't Harry just sit down with Snape and voice his issues, trying to make peace with him (after, of course, he learned Snape wasn't tying to kill him.) > By the end of PA I was wondering why he didn't grab Dumbledore and Snape, sit them both down, and ask what the heck is going on, tell me the whole story, I want > to know everything and work with you guys instead of > sneaking around behind your backs. (snips) > > I don't think he ever believes he is above the > rules, but I do believe > he sometimes feels that the situation at hand > This is Dumbledore, the wisest, kindest character in > the book, showing > the children that sometimes the situation at hand > outweighs any specific > rules. > -Jeremy 7thSqueal responds: I appreciated your post and I'm glad that you brought up the issues of relativism and the sticky issues involved in teaching children ethical behavior in a grey world, fictional or otherwise. Regarding Harry's continued distrust of Snape: IMHO Harry is acting on instinct, the same instinct that makes him so brave and active in the face of the evil of Voldemort. Harry instinctually distrusts Snape. That feeling of suspicion is so strong in him that he can't bring himself to dismiss it even though on a rational level he has evidence that Snape is looking out for him and even saving his life. It is an irrational intuition and it remains to be seen whether this intuition serves him or continues to act as a fictional red herring. IMO JK Rowling is writing a book that takes into account both the rational and irrational sides of people. Dumbledore, the wisest wizard weighs all sides of an issue, perhaps it's a kind of gestalt decision- making, to make his decisions. We have seen him discount the solid logical advice of Snape in favor of gut feelings, trust and what ever arcane information he has acquired through unorthodox magical means. ===== ~SeventhSqueal There's no earthly way of knowing / Which direction we are going / There's no knowing where we're rowing / Or which way the river's flowing / Is it raining? / Is it snowing? / Is a hurricane a-blowing? / Not a speck of light is showing / So the danger must be growing / Are the fires of hell a-glowing? / Is the grisly reaper mowing? / Yes, the danger must be growing / 'Cause the rowers keep on rowing / And they're certainly not showing / Any signs that they are slowing! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From suzloua at hotmail.com Tue Mar 18 17:20:34 2003 From: suzloua at hotmail.com (Susan Atherton) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 17:20:34 -0000 Subject: Cedric Tall & Blond?/Cedric casting Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53911 "Steve" wrote: > I think the blond vs dark hair goes back to the many references in > society to good being light and bad being dark. The good guys always > wear white hats, bad guys black. Also, blond is associated with a > 'bright' outgoing personality where as dark hair implies a dark > brooding personality. Of course, it's not true, but I think that is a > general association many people make. Me: I agree. I don't tend to get actual images of characters in my head, I more get a sense of them. For me, Hermione is very much Emma Watson now, because Emma is so very Hermione-looking (except prettier). Ron to me is taller, cleverer, more languid and sarcastic. I also picture him having a Northern accent - but maybe that's because I sometimes see myself in Ron ;) Harry is very like Dan, but not quite the same. And Draco never really had an image in my head, he was more like a cruel flash. So Felton is like Emma, they ARE the characters to me. Now, like most people, I imagined Cedric as blonde too. Why? Well, I think Steve answered the question admirably. I just picture someone as honourable and upright as Cedric as having blonde hair - maybe it's an angel complex, it's the idea of him having almost a halo. As it is, I think if they cast Cedric with dark hair, my image will change, but at the moment he's blonde to me. And I'd like to see Jack Ryder playing him, just because I think he's very Cedric like. However, Charlie Hunnam would scare me, because I see him doing ANYTHING and I just think of Nathan Maloney, the brattiest kid in Canal Street. Ah, how I laughed when Hazel and Donna give him and Dazz some of Bernie's bucket... heehee I don't know this Henry Cavill kid though - sounds intriguing! Susan ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "Help me Jebus!" --Homer Simpson "Shame on you! Ugly baby judges you!" --Ross Geller "Oh yeah, and did I mention I've got a baby?" --Stuart Alan Jones "You know, I telephoned my grandparents the other day, and my grandfather said to me, 'We saw your movie.' 'Which one?' I said, and he shouted, 'Betty, what was the name of that movie I didn't like?'" --Brad Pitt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From suzloua at hotmail.com Tue Mar 18 17:22:02 2003 From: suzloua at hotmail.com (Susan Atherton) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 17:22:02 -0000 Subject: Cedric Tall & Blond?/Cedric casting Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53912 Ooops - that was meant for the Movie list, I clicked on the wrong name by mistake! Sorry! ----- Original Message ----- From: Susan Atherton To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 5:20 PM Subject: Re: Cedric Tall & Blond?/Cedric casting [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jdm267 at psu.edu Tue Mar 18 16:56:05 2003 From: jdm267 at psu.edu (jsherman6) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 16:56:05 -0000 Subject: What do wizards do? In-Reply-To: <1047995001.16795.242.camel@princess> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53913 Jeremy Wrote: > I have been wondering what exactly wizards DO with their time. I mean, > I know they must work and have jobs, but I can't think of there being > enough non-muggle jobs for all of them. Here's my logic: > > First we need a rough estimate of the wizard population. I start with > two liberal assumptions: JKR is right about there being 1000 students at > Hogwarts, and that the average wizard lives to about 200 years old. > This leads to the following equation: > 1000 students / 7 years = 143 students per year > 143 students per year * 200 years = 28,600 wizards > > 1430 children (143 per year * the ten years until they get to Hogwarts) > aren't in school yet (assuming that Hogwarts is the only Wizarding > school,) plus the 1000 students at Hogwarts equals 2,430 children who > aren't yet in the wizarding work force. > > This leaves 26,170 adult wizard of working age (assuming no post > graduate work after Hogwarts) Also bear in mind that some (probably > small) percentage of them are squibs. > > .................................... Me: To tell you the truth I thought your estimate was a bit low. Which would just help reinforce your argument about too many Wizards and not enough jobs. Remember that not every child gets to go to Hogwarts. I think there are other schools around the United Kingdom that we just haven't heard about yet. Wizard or not, 200 is pretty old. I think you forgot about the retirement community who has no need to work any more. Maybe there is a WW form of social security. As for you Quidditch team conundrum, I thought that those 90 some odd teams were located around the world. Even Pro baseball doesn't have that many teams in the United States. Or if they are all located in the United Kingdom, I am sure players from others countries would come to play for certain teams, much like they do here for baseball, basketball, hockey, etc... So now say that most Wizards retire around 160. I used that number since the average retirement age for Muggles is 65 which is 4/5 of the total average life span (~80). Therefore (4/5) * 200 = 160. So Wizards are non working for about 57 years of their lives (200 - 160) + 10 + 7 = 57 ----> (Life Span - Retirement Age) + Childhood + Years at School. So using your numbers I would guess that there are about 20,449 working Wizards (143 * 143). You could also figure if the unemployment rate is similar to Muggles (5.8%) then another 1,198 Wizards are not working. So, my new total would be around 19,251 working Wizards. I don't think this is too unreasonable. I am sure between Government, Schooling, Commercial, and Entertainment the WW has plenty of job opportunities. -jack- (who realized he has way to much time on his hands) From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue Mar 18 18:47:51 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 18:47:51 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy References: <1047979781.3019.84857.m3@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001e01c2ed7e$e168d000$bb4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 53914 Iwishiwerehermione wrote: >I've also been thinking about this and I agree Percy seems a likely >choice. The Weasleys are all "fans" of Harry's. A possible storyline >in my mind is that order-and-rule loving Percy blindly follows Fudge >on his assumption that the Minister for Magic couldn't possibly be >wrong about the rise of Voldemort. I am viewing Fudge's blindness Percy is a loyal and naive young civil servant who has only just joined the Ministry and whose first year has seen his boss (whom he deeply respected) knocked off by the DEs. In turn, Voldemort, having re-arisen, is likely to move quickly to reactivate his network within the Ministry. The question for me is whether Percy has woken up to the fact that he is in a very devious political world filled with intrigue at a time when the MoM's internal politics could get quite nasty. It depends whether - he remains an underling who doesn't question what's going on at the TOTO (in which case he might survive - he develops the Weasley savvy which has kept his dad ahead of the game through his career (once again he might survive), or - he tries to play with the big boys without knowing what he is getting into (in which case he is a very good candidate for the boneyard) I wonder out loud exactly how Voldemort will try to take over the Ministry and who he will try to advance. I know there's already a theory that Fudge is a DE agent but in a way he is rather more vulnerable now that Voldemort has declared himself again. Now that Voldemort is back in the public domain, if Fudge doesn't do anything and carries on trying to deny it, there would be no reason why that couldn't be brought to the attention of the Daily Prophet (who _do_ frequently criticise the MoM) and enough of a furore raised to bring Fudge down. My suggested DE candidates for Minister would be either Bagman (advantages - already near the top, popular, and _very_ easily controlled. All you'd have to do would be lend him some money and then when he couldn't pay it back, blackmail him) or MacNair - one of the DE's inner council (though with some disadvantages, particularly that he seems to be older and in a less prestigious post). Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Mar 18 16:49:03 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 16:49:03 -0000 Subject: Predictions for OoP/ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53915 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "asandhp" wrote: Admiringg Sceptic wrote: > >The jail break motif is an important element of both PoA and GoF; it > could also be applied to CoS (Diary!Riddle "escapes" the diary, Ginny > is imprisoned, the Basilisk is freed); I can't immediately see escape > from imprisonment in PS/SS, but I'm sure someone else can have a > go. :-) Harry escapes nasty Dursleys to the magical World! And it's not just Riddle-escape in CoS, but also Harry - just look at his dream in the beginning, Hedwig in cage as symbol of this... And Dobby, being set free by Harry in the end! Admiring Sceptic: > The philosopher's stone provided gold and life, not wisdom. And NEWTs > test > knowledge, they don't provide any. Many fantasies have a inner > sanctum of > knowlege accessible only to the fewest of initiates. All mages know > standard > magic, but the high priest of magic has access to something much, > much more. > That's what I'm predicting Dumbledore will share with Harry in Book 6. Philosopher's stone itself - after creation does indeed provide sovereign healer/gold to infinitum. However, it is believed that in the process of creating it, you gain enough wisdom not to want it! And what comes to Dumbledore sharing a big secret... Philosopher's stone was NOT destroyed, Dumbledore lied! -- Finwitch From yalithb223 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 18 16:21:35 2003 From: yalithb223 at yahoo.com (Jessica Iseman) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 08:21:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: an odd musing about Harry's attitude & When do werewolves change? In-Reply-To: <1047979781.3019.84857.m3@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030318162135.70906.qmail@web20708.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53916 I don't really think that Harry has an attitude problem persay. We must all remember that he is 14 and as a teenager is assigned an attitude problem upon his 13th birthday. Secondly, I believe that he seems to have pretty good control over his attitude. There are several instances where he has the opportunity to react disrespectfully towards adults (Prof. Snape in particular) but holds himself back. As has been previously stated by about a million other people, the adults that he does not respect have not earned any respect. The Dursleys neglect and abuse him, and Snape is notoriously unfair. The other adults he disrespects he seems to think to be evil in some way. In this way JKR is saying you must earn respect, blind respect and obedience is bad. Also, all the rule breaking tends to be for the greater good. It's not like they're sneaking out at night to snog on top of the astronomy tower (as some fan fics would have you believe). They're sneaking out to prevent the SS from being stolen, or to save someone. JKR is saying it's ok to bend the rules as long as it's for the common good. Now for something completely different, My theory on this is that the wolfsbane potion is just beginning to wear off on Lupin. It was still strong enough to protect him as long as the moon wasn't shining directly on him, but when it came out, BAM! werewolf. As for the date problem, it's just a book and JKR is just a person. You can't expect her to get everything perfectly right. I personally don't remember what date the full moon was in 1994 (I was 13, so I probably wasn't paying attention anyway), so I can't expect her to remember or possibly care that it was June 26 instead of June 6. Jessica I. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 18 19:47:55 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 19:47:55 -0000 Subject: What do wizards do? In-Reply-To: <1047995001.16795.242.camel@princess> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53917 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, imhotep1 wrote: > > I have been wondering what exactly wizards DO with their time. ... > I mean, I know they must work and have jobs, Here's my logic: > > First we need a rough estimate of the wizard population. > ...edited... This leads to the following equation: > 1000 students / 7 years = 143 students per year > 143 students per year * 200 years = 28,600 wizards > > ...edited... > > ... employed with MoM. > > ... entertainment industry. > > We know there are at least 91 (13 teams * 7 players) ... > play professional quidditch, and probably a support staff ... ) > > ...a bunch of people work in publishing, ... > > people ... in advertising and publicity. > > the medical practice, ... > > those ... fortunate enough to own their own business > > There are also housewives ... > > Then there are the trades. > > Finally there are the non-glamorous jobs: conductor & driver of > the Knight Bus, food service, dishwasher, and so fourth. > ... a market for farming... > > ... I don't see is enough ... production occupations to support > the wizarding population. Twenty-six-thousand ... people, and > .. the occupations I have outlined, .. most of them must be > employed doing transfigurations and enchantments of things ... > > And what do they actually create. ... Without some sort of worker > base (farmers, factory workers, ... ) no one actually produces > anything new, ... > > ...edited... > > ...) but does anyone have any ideas. Are their wizard farmers? > Do most of the Wizarding folk slave away in wizarding factories > enchanting and transfiguring wizarding things for wizarding folk? > Do my numbers seem accurate to you, or does half my home state play > professional baseball? > > -Jeremy bboy_mn: First, regarding your estimates of the wizard population, your estimate is good enough to make your point and serves as a nice illustration, but the wizarding population is just like the student count at Hogwarts, it is an unsolvable problem. Believe me many people here have spend hours and hours analysing it and calucalating it from every possible angle then debating it for days on end, and the answer is always the same, we have opinions but in all honestly we don't know and can't know. Next, employment is like an iceberg, what you actually see is only the tip of it. Let's take an example: Florean Fortescue's Ice Cream Parlor It looks to me like Mr. Fortescue runs it, so that accounts for the employment of 1 person. Maybe his wife helps, so now we account for 2 people. Conclusion: the ice cream business employs two people ... Or does it? Who built the store? Where does his milk come from? ...who processes the milk? Who delivers it? ...his sugar? ... again, who grows it, who processes it, who distrubutes it? ...his fruit and flavorings? ...his store fixtures? ...his tables and chairs? ...his bowels, cups, glasses, forks, spoons, straws, napkins, utensils, mixing bowls, general storage, cold storage, glass for his windows, wood for his floors, stone and mortar for his building, shingles for his roof, paint for his walls, signs, menues, ink to write the menues, paper to print the menues on, some one to print the menues, someone to supply the printer with his printing press and all the people who were needed to support the printing press manufacturer, etc... Now it looks more like 500 people were involved in creating the business and at least, very conservatively, a 100 (or more, more likely) are needed to keep it going. You can do the same thing for every business, and you will find the same thing I have illustrated here. You have to employ loads of people to keep even one small business running. - broom manufacturers = wood cutters, carvers, wood finishers, metal crafters, metal creators, painters, artists, packaging and packagers, etc... - Ogen's distillery - how many people to run and SUPPORT a distillery? - farmers of all types - fruit, vegetables, meat, meat processors and meat distributors, grain, seed, cotton, wool, flax, transportation, equipment manufacturers, etc... - traders, importers, exporters, warehousers, transporters - shoe makers - sources of leather, tanners of leather, cutting tools, etc... - furniture maker -furniture sellers, distributors, craftsmen, woodsmen, saw mills, hardware manufacturers, etc... Shall I keep going? To a certain extent the wizard world is a self-sustaining society. They create everything needed to sustain a society; food, clothing, housing, etc... Yes, there are common labor jobs; some guy sits in the Weasley Wheezes Joke factory enchanting trick wants all day. A whole load of people work in the trick food department. There are farmers. Although they use a lot of magical methods to accomplish the necessary tasks. Then there are specialty farmers (just like in real life) who grow the rare herbs needed to supply the apothocaries, and in the same vein, there are wildcrafters who gather wild herbs. Well, I can keep going like this but I would just be repeating the samething over an over again using different examples. It takes a lot of people to sustain the wizard world, and those resource people are drawn from all over world including the muggle world. I estimate (instinctively) the wizard world at many times more than you did, and I have no problem finding jobs for all of them. But to find those jobs, you have to look deeper than the surface. Just a thought. bboy_mn From uncmark at yahoo.com Tue Mar 18 19:58:40 2003 From: uncmark at yahoo.com (Mark D.) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 19:58:40 -0000 Subject: McGonagall, Hermione, and Anamagi Was (Re: Bad stuff for Hermione) In-Reply-To: <009501c2ec48$ed7eb620$c0195142@net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53918 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, >> Greicy wrote "I'd, unfortunately, have to suggest that something >> may happen to Hermione. She is muggle born after all and if, as >> Mattie Stepanek hinted on the Oprah show, that muggles will be >> involved why not start by attacking the Grangers. Leaving >> Hermione an orphan... Her whole world will come crumbling down >> and in a way only Harry will be able to understand what's she's >> feeling because he's been through it. > "Carrie S" wrote: > I really think that Hermione made a bad decision in keeping Rita > and thinking she could handle it. Probably should have given her > up to Dumbledore and let him deal with it. She is no match for a > angry, competant, full grown witch. I disagree that Hermione was no match for Rita. (She caught her after all.) Also I Don't believe that the Hogwart's staff is as clueless to the students activities as HP seems to think. Considering that McGonagall is one of the few registered Animagi (and I'm guessing one of the top authorities on transfiguration) and that Dumbledore is now aware that Pettigrew is an Anamagi in the service of LV, don't you think there would be anti-Anamagi protections up? While brainstorming a new FanFic I got the following ideas. 1. McGonagall would have some sort of anamagi scanner spell up and would have found out that Rita Skeeter was an unregistered anamagi. Considering her a nuisance rather than an actual enemy, McGonagall probably observe Hermione capturing Rita and would have confronted Rita with her own idea of public service. My own idea would be to see Rita working at Hogwart's under McGonagall's close supervision advising a new student newspaper. This would bring Colin Creevey more into the stage as the official Hogwart's photographer and in the future Rita might be drafted as a anamagi spy for Dumbledore OR might show her true colors as a double agent! 2. In the absence of a anamagi scanner (which would be very difficult magic) McGonagall would have alternative means to insure her students safety. In Particular, she would not be so trusting to allow Hermione to be with an older Krum totally unsupervised. I'm picturing discrete agents to keep Hermione under observation while leaving her some privacy. My ideas would be (1)the Hogwart's ghosts who could be invisible if they wished. I'm wondering if the Gray Lady might help out 'chaperoning a young witch' while respecting Hermione's privacy. OR (2) Crookshanks, who has demonstrated near-human intelligence, might agree to a anamagi female cat to protect his human. He would keep an eye on Krum, although he would never reveal Hermione's secrets. OPINIONS? From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Mar 18 20:03:53 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 15:03:53 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: an odd musing about Harry's attitude & When do werewo... Message-ID: <18e.17ea6720.2ba8d5a9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53919 In a message dated 3/18/2003 1:23:45 PM Central Standard Time, yalithb223 at yahoo.com writes: > Now for something completely different, > My theory on this is that the wolfsbane potion is just > beginning to wear off on Lupin. It was still strong > enough to protect him as long as the moon wasn't > shining directly on him, but when it came out, BAM! I > werewolf. > I thought he transformed into the violent form werewolf (as opposed to the tame version that curls up in his office) because he hadn't taken the potion that night. That doesn't mean that he's becoming immune to the potion only that he not skip any doses be skipped. Melissa ( who is looking for POA so she can get the exact quote) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From artsylynda at aol.com Tue Mar 18 20:16:04 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 15:16:04 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] An odd musing on Harry's attitude Message-ID: <160.1d8c272f.2ba8d884@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53920 imhotep1: > Sometimes they [HRH] make good > decisions, and sometimes they make poor ones (such as Harry's continued > distrust of Snape.) There's an old expression (I don't know if it's uniquely American or not, but here it is anyway): "Burn me once, shame on you. Burn me twice, shame on me" that I think applies to Harry's attitude. I have no problem with Harry. His manners are wonderful considering how he's grown up. He's a kid (we have to remember this) and acts like a realistic kid (great writing, JKR!), with hopes, dreams, short attention span at times, frustration with homework and bullies, giggles and the occasional spat. For the most part, he's polite, quiet, reserved, respectful even when the person doesn't deserve it (Snape -- Harry DOES bite his tongue on a great many *comments* he could make, quite often, just not on *all* of them -- but then he'd be a saint, and that wouldn't be very realistic). He's been the victim of Snape's wrath innumerable times without responding except to burn inside (and yes, I know he responds sometimes, but not all the time). Yes, Snape saved his life, and that's tremendously important, but the daily mistreatment Harry and the other Gryffendors suffer at Snape's hands. . .well, Harry is one of those people who have a strong sense of justice, and Snape is one of the most unjust people I can imagine in a school setting (or elsewhere, for that matter). He's been burned by Snape way more than once. Being "burned" by Snape once was warning enough. Now Harry's in "protective" mode -- if he gets "burned" again, and there was any way for Harry to avoid it, then it *might* be Harry's own fault he got whatever mistreatment he received (because he didn't heed the warning of the other times Snape's mistreated him). Harry does his best (MOST of the time) to avoid provoking Snape, which is a sign of character and intelligence. Some kids would just blow up under such provocation on a regular basis -- Harry doesn't. Harry has grown up with nobody to protect him or look out for him but himself -- I can't see him doing anything differently now that he's out in the world. He's been "trained" (by his life experience) to think for himself, protect himself, look after himself. He's still doing that, and with increasing independence as his maturity and skills grow. Maybe that's how the wizarding world needs him to grow, so he'll be able to think for himself and not give in to those "in authority" simply because they're in authority (Fudge, for instance, who proved in GoF that he doesn't deserve any respect). "Heroes" rarely follow "normal" paths of showing respect for those in authority -- they rise to meet challenges without asking permission of those in authority (or anyone else). That's part of what makes them heroes. They'd be considered foolish risk-takers (as Hermione thought of Harry and Ron before the troll incident made them best friends) if they weren't *successful* at meeting those challenges -- I guess there's a fine line between heroes and fools sometimes. JMHO Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 18 20:52:43 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 20:52:43 -0000 Subject: Question about Harry's scar Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53921 I was thinking of how Voldemort used the Killing Curse to try to kill Harry. If I'm not mistaken, in order for you to kill someone, your wand must be pointed at their heart. So when Voldemort used the curse, it rebounded and landed on Voldemort instead. Now if it rebounded, why does Harry have a scar on his forehead instead of his chest? I know I may be reading too much in between the lines, but could there be another reason as to how Harry got that lightning scar? Correct me if I'm wrong about the wand having to be pointed at the person's heart. Greicy From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Mar 18 21:08:47 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 16:08:47 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: an odd musing about Harry's attitude & When do werewo... Message-ID: <1dc.56155ce.2ba8e4df@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53922 In a message dated 3/18/2003 2:06:35 PM Central Standard Time, Meliss9900 at aol.com writes: > That doesn't mean that he's becoming immune to the potion only > that he not skip any doses be skipped. > that should read: That doesn't mean that he's becoming immune to the potion only that he should not skip any doses. Melissa. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From abigailnus at yahoo.com Tue Mar 18 21:11:00 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 21:11:00 -0000 Subject: Question about Harry's scar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53923 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: > I was thinking of how Voldemort used the Killing Curse to try to > kill Harry. If I'm not mistaken, in order for you to kill someone, > your wand must be pointed at their heart. Am I right when I assume that you base that presumption on the fact that Harry pointed his wand at Sirius's heart in the Shrieking Shack? Because I don't think we can read too much into that. For one thing, Harry doesn't even know about Avada Kedavra at that point. Every so often, someone asks how exactly Harry was going to kill Sirius, and then there's a race to see who can find the most malicious application of a common spell (Accio his heart, levitate him out the window and let go, etc.), but AK wasn't an option. I think it's rather obvious in the SS scene that Harry has no idea what he's doing. He's angry as hell, and he knows he wants to kill Sirius, but he hasn't given any thought to how he's going to accomplish it, and he's stopped before he can puzzle it out. Pointing his wand at Sirius's heart is, I think, a dramatic flourish on Harry's part, and not required for the spell to succeed. In fact, I can think of no spell that requires such specific targeting. Obviously, if you want to levitate an object, it helps to point your wand in its general direction, and we know that spells can miss their target, but none of the dueling spells that we've seen require that you target a specific portion of the body. Harry has never seen AK performed (or rather, he can't properly remember the first time he saw it and his eyes were closed the second time it was performed in his presence) but he has witnessed the other two Unforgivables, and they don't require a specific target. So all told, I don't think AK needs to hit the heart to work. Abigail From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 18 21:13:37 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 21:13:37 -0000 Subject: Question about Harry's scar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53924 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: > I was thinking of how Voldemort used the Killing Curse to try to > kill Harry. ...edited... > > Correct me if I'm wrong about the wand (for the death curse) having to be pointed at the person's heart. > > > Greicy bboy_mn: I don't think it does. I think if a death curse hits you on the big toe, you are dead. There are several examples of serious curses being pointed at the head and the heart. Snape point his wand at Lupin's head (I think). Harry points his wand at Sirius's heart. Fake!Moody points his wand at Harry's heart. I think two things come into play, with wands just as with guns, generally, you aim for the center of the body mass which is just below the heart, and for intimidation factor, you aim at the head. I can see how some general incidences in the book could lead you to the conclusion that a death curse has to be aimed at the heart, but my read is that it doesn't. Just a thought. bboy_mn From patricia at obscure.org Tue Mar 18 21:11:11 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 16:11:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What do wizards do? In-Reply-To: <1047995001.16795.242.camel@princess> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53926 On 18 Mar 2003, imhotep1 wrote: > Maybe I'm just off my rocker and none of this matters (kind of like the > whole "the dates don't match up" issue,) but does anyone have any > ideas. Are their wizard farmers? Do most of the Wizarding folk slave > away in wizarding factories enchanting and transfiguring wizarding > things for wizarding folk? Do my numbers seem accurate to you, or does > half my home state play professional baseball? If your estimate of less than 30,000 British wizards is correct, I don't see any problem employing them all. In fact, I would see the opposite problem. 30,000 people is considered a mid-sized town these days. Mid-sized towns don't as a rule have trouble employing most of their employable residents. The amount of work that has to go on to support day-to-day life is staggering, even if it's not always immediately apparent. However, the wizarding world seems to be awash in luxury items, and I am skeptical that 30,000 people could meet all of their daily needs while simultaneously devoting so much time and so many resources to producing luxury items. It seems to me that there must be a whole lot more than 30,000 British wizards to accomplish all they seem to do. Of course, there are additional sources of magical labor besides wizards and witches (house elves and goblins, for instance), and we do know that there is a significant import/export trade with foreign wizarding communities. Even so, I figure the WW must let the muggle world do a lot of their labor for them. There is no reason why the ww needs its own wheat farmers, for example, when muggles are doing a fine job of growing wheat on their own. With the exception of specialty herbs and such, I would expect most food, and probably raw materials such as wood and stone as well, are procured from muggle sources. Of course, that raises the need for a class of witches and wizards acting as middle men who can do business with muggles without exposing the existence of magic. However, if you still want to identify each and every job that fills out the wizarding economy, it's worth considering the effect of unemployment. Even in a healthy economy you can expect a certain amount of "churn," that is, members of the work force who are currently between jobs. Between 4% and 7% seems to be normal for Western industrialized countries. So that will reduce the number of wizards you need to find jobs for even further. And don't forget about retirement. We haven't seen many wizards Dumbledore's age running around, and I suspect that is because most of them choose not to work any more, at least not full-time. And there also seem to be some wizarding families like the Malfoys that are so rich they don't need to work at all if they don't want to. I do think there is a large magical production sector that we just haven't seen yet. After all, why would boarding school students need to visit a factory? I can also think of a few other sectors of the economy that weren't named in your original post: construction (The Burrow clearly isn't held up by principles of mechanical engineering, so some wizard must have built it), animal husbandry (post owls need to come from somewhere, not to mention bat wings for potions and the leather for those dragon-hide gloves all students have to have), fashion (Madam Malkin must employ an awful lot of seamstresses to produce all those robes), security (how do you keep someone who can disapparate from walking off with your valuables?), and so on. Basically, for almost every sector of the muggle economy there would be a corresponding sector of the magical economy, but with a lot less brute force manual labor. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Wed Mar 19 00:10:48 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 16:10:48 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Oh, just ignore me... References: <20030318082731.37746.qmail@web14902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53927 Oh, just ignore my last e-mail. I am stupid for not reading Alex's e-mail close enough... whoops! ----- Original Message ----- From: Danger Mouse To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] problem with wererwolves( WAS When do werewolves change?) Alex: Does this have something to do with the Animagus effect? I thought that if you were bitten by a werewolf, you became one. Thoughts? Me: Animagus effect? I don't know what you mean by that--Lupin's not an animagus. As for him biting Snape... I don't recall that either, in fact it's not mentioned anywhere. I call your attention to Chapter 18 (Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs) of Prisoner of Azkaban. Ahem: "Severus was very interesting in where I went every month. We were in the same year, you know and we didn't like each other very much. He especially disliked James. Jealous, I think, of James's talent on the Quidditch field... anyway Snape had seen me crossing the grounds with Madam Pomfrey one evening as she led me toward the Whomping Willow to transform. Sirius thought it would be--er--amusing, to tell Snape... (snip) but your father, who'd heard what Sirius had done, went after Snape andpulled him back, at great risk to his life... Snape glimpsed me, though, at the end of the tunnel..." Snape wasn't wounded, except perhaps his pride for having been tricked by Sirius... -Danger Mouse [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jentifred at spamcop.net Tue Mar 18 21:09:07 2003 From: jentifred at spamcop.net (Jennifer Angliss) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 14:09:07 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question about Harry's scar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030318140148.0096ae60@mail.spamcop.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53928 At 01:52 PM 03/18/2003 , grace701 wrote: >I was thinking of how Voldemort used the Killing Curse to try to >kill Harry. If I'm not mistaken, in order for you to kill someone, >your wand must be pointed at their heart. So when Voldemort used >the curse, it rebounded and landed on Voldemort instead. Now if it >rebounded, why does Harry have a scar on his forehead instead of his >chest? I know I may be reading too much in between the lines, but >could there be another reason as to how Harry got that lightning >scar? > >Correct me if I'm wrong about the wand having to be pointed at the >person's heart. There isn't anything in canon about the wand having to be pointed at the person's head. I've checked all three mentions of AK that I can think of (DADA class, and two instances in the graveyard) and none of them mention the wands being pointed anywhere in particular. Jennifer From carrie525 at mybluelight.com Tue Mar 18 23:21:27 2003 From: carrie525 at mybluelight.com (Carrie S) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 15:21:27 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: An odd musing about Harry's attitude - cont dislike of Snape References: <009901c2ed03$2f3236e0$1e105142@net> <1047982167.16795.119.camel@princess> Message-ID: <006601c2edac$0696d020$85155142@net> No: HPFGUIDX 53929 Hi, I have just one more thought on the subject of Harry & Snape... Imhotep1 wrote: I think everyone is sort of in agreement that the Dursleys get what they deserve, but the Snape issue is the peculiar one to me. When I read through the books I kept wondering why didn't Harry just sit down with Snape and voice his issues, trying to make peace with him (after, of course, he learned Snape wasn't tying to kill him.) By the end of PA I was wondering why he didn't grab Dumbledore and Snape, sit them both down, and ask what the heck is going on, tell me the whole story, I want to know everything and work with you guys instead of sneaking around behind your backs. Of course, I am not 14. ****Carrie responds.... Yes, this is curious. I don't wonder why he doesn't approach Snape, because he is 14 and Snape has been mean. But I wonder why after he learns Snape tried to save his life, his feelings don't change toward Snape at all. He doesn't try to thank him, which would be *hard* to do. Does Snape hold it against Harry that he never said "thanks, you're not so bad after all"? Does he treat Harry worse because he's resentful now. They have such a complex relationship. My curiousity begs Harry to go and talk to Snape, but it never happens...sigh It's exactly like Snape and James. James saved Snape's life and Snape's feelings didn't seem to warm up toward James afterward. In fact he seems to feel resentful, if he even acknowledges it all. If you carry this farther there is even another parralel...Snape seems to feel that James owed it to him to save his life. Since Sirius lured him to follow along. Does Harry feel that Snape only tried to save him because he owed it to James? They could both be misinterpreting a noble act because they insist on disliking the person who did it. Carrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carrie525 at mybluelight.com Tue Mar 18 22:55:22 2003 From: carrie525 at mybluelight.com (Carrie S) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 14:55:22 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: An odd musing about Harry's attitude References: Message-ID: <006501c2edac$0497a4c0$85155142@net> No: HPFGUIDX 53930 Hello to everyone & Naama....We were talking about Harry's attitude in the books... Naama posted: I'm sorry, but these kind of accusations against Harry - that he's disrespectful, that he thinks he's above the rules - they go totally against JKR's world view. ***Me: I don't think he's always disrepectful or a bad guy in any way. I think he is a teen! He is young and still learning. It is his character, and I love his character. It's my opinion that he is encouraged by the adults around him to behave the way he does to a large degree. I don't know what JKR's world view is, so I can't respond to that. Naama posted: But it doesn't make sense to accuse a character in this case - accuse the writer for portraying a good character in a way that doesn't agree with what you perceieve as moral or moral enough. *****Me: I didn't accuse JKR of anything. I do think that Harry has been confrontational with his teachers. That is all my post was about. This thread is just speculating why that is or *if* it is. I believe it's just Harry growing up and starting to think more for himself and he's questioning authority. Lots of people do that, and I certainly don't think it's immoral! =) But when you're a teen, it's what we call around here, an attitude. I think as he gets bolder in this particular area, it shows JKR growing her character's dimension and being true to human nature. I didn't mention anything about morality in my original post, but AFAIK Harry's morals are good. BTW, I wasn't in on the JKR morality thread that was going on so if I touched on a hot button there, it was totally by accident. Naama also wrote: ALL of Harry's escapades, rule breaking, etc. (except for his trips to Hogsmeade) are GOOD, within the framework of JKR's imaginary world. Whether you approve of rule breaking or not, JKR does approve of it, *when it serves a higher good.* *******I respond: I certainly approve of it when it makes a great story! I don't know if everything he does is good though. I interpret Harry's "rule breaking" differently, largely as a literary device. i.e. If he didn't drink Polyjuice, he would have wasted time on Malfoy. But I do think it's very clever that as he gets older JKR has given Harry a tiny touch of angst and I like it. Again, I don't think Harry is immoral. The part I like though, is like I said, HHR are very ummmm...proactive. They never think to ask for assistance. But adult characters within the books notice this also, which is another clever thing JKR has done. a little rule breaking cannon: (car flying incident) CoS US p80 "---so we had no choice, Professor, we couldn't get on the train." "Why didn't you send us a letter by owl? I believe *you* have an owl?" Professor McGonagall stared coldy at Harry. Naama concludes...... In the same vein: bring your beef to JKR, but don't bring your beef to Harry, who is being as good a little character as he can be. :-) ******** I conclude..... Harry's great. If I was his Aunt I would have come to the school a long time ago an thwapped Snape on the head and then thanked him for saving Harry's life. I don't have a beef with JKR other than I want her to write faster! Naama, I didn't mean to offend you at all. : ) Carrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jizzkitty420 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 18 13:27:20 2003 From: jizzkitty420 at yahoo.com (Giselle Sicle) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 05:27:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Could Dumbledore Really Be Evil? In-Reply-To: <147.d2a6808.2ba7c295@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030318132720.58324.qmail@web13113.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53931 daisywcck at aol.com wrote: In the book... "He said my blood would make him stronger than if he'd used someone else's," Harry told Dumbledore. "He said the protection my-my mother left in me-he'd have it too. And he was right- he could touch me without hurting himself, he touched my face." For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. But next second, Harry was sure he had imagined it, for when Dumbledore had returned to his seat behind the desk, he looked as old and weary as Harry had ever seen him." Any theories/ideas on this subject? (I'm really evil.... I'm making my drama students write essays for extra credit on this subject and other HP theories.) Katherine Well Katherine IMO Dumbledore may obviously know something that we don't. Perhaps LV having Harry's blood in his veins is a weakness. Dumbledore may be able to use it as an advantage in the war against LV. We just have to sit around and wait to see what happens. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yalithb223 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 18 20:06:47 2003 From: yalithb223 at yahoo.com (yalithb223) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 20:06:47 -0000 Subject: an odd musing about Harry's attitude & When do werewo... In-Reply-To: <18e.17ea6720.2ba8d5a9@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53932 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: Melissa: > I thought he transformed into the violent form werewolf (as opposed to the > tame version that curls up in his office) because he hadn't taken the potion > that night. That doesn't mean that he's becoming immune to the potion only > that he not skip any doses be skipped. You are right, sorry about that. That kind of blows my whole theory out of the water. He does transform into a wolf, but curls up in his office to sleep. I guess it's just another one of those HP mysteries that we can't explain. Either it is that the moon was just reaching it's true "full" point, or it is just an inconsistency. Jessica I. (embarassed and going to hide in a corner now.) From trinity61us at yahoo.com Tue Mar 18 22:52:15 2003 From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 14:52:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] problem with wererwolves( WAS When do werewolves change?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030318225215.85591.qmail@web14914.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53933 Danger Mouse wrote: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53934 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 3/18/2003 1:23:45 PM Central Standard Time, > yalithb223 at y... writes: > > > Now for something completely different, > > My theory on this is that the wolfsbane potion is just > > beginning to wear off on Lupin. It was still strong > > enough to protect him as long as the moon wasn't > > shining directly on him, but when it came out, BAM! I > > werewolf. > > > > I thought he transformed into the violent form werewolf (as opposed to the > tame version that curls up in his office) because he hadn't taken the potion > that night. That doesn't mean that he's becoming immune to the potion only > that he not skip any doses be skipped. > > Melissa ( who is looking for POA so she can get the exact quote) Sorry that was my fault. He does change to a werewolf under the wolfsbane potion but he is able to control himself. That is my fault. I guess our other options are the 'full' moon occurs at a specific point in time or it's an inconsistency. My revised theory is now the inconsistency. If the moon was not full when it rose and Lupin only transformed once it was full, why would he remain a werewolf when the moon was no longer completely full. It seems that the three day period is the time during which the moon appears full (i. e. the night before, the night of, and the night after the full moon) Jessica I. (who is now embarrassed and will be hiding in the corner for awhile) From swirskyr at rogers.com Wed Mar 19 04:48:50 2003 From: swirskyr at rogers.com (happyduck1979) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 04:48:50 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Cockroach Theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53935 Hi! I know that none of you have ever seen me before, but I have been lurking here for a while now. I love the books (and the movies although not nearly as much) and recently convinced my husband to read them as well. As such I am rereading them myself. I was lying in bed last night and I came up with a theory that I had not seen posted before and I was wondering what other people think of it. Many people have questioned whether or not Dumbledore is an animagnus. I figure that since he taught transfiguration before McGonagall the chances are probably pretty good that he can transform into something. There are a few clues to this idea in the book, but they are not anything big. Let's start with insects habbits. We know that Dumbledore found his way to a magic room full of beautiful chamberpots. This would fit as a room that would appeal to a cockroach. They tend to live in rather distastefull locations. They also chase down sugar which *might* explain Dumbledore taste for sweets (although I have to wonder if that means that McGonagle enjoys the taste of meow-mix). Now it is that taste for sweets that seems to provide passwords for Dumbledore's office. Is there anything that sounds more disgusting then cockrach clusters? There has to me more to it then just a wizarding treat that we have not yet come accross anywhere else. Now, I also think that there might be some truth to the idea that people who can transform into animals can recognize other people who can transform into animals. I think that Lupin might know Dumbledore's secret. He might even think that Dumbledore *was* aware of what happened all those years ago in the Shreiking Shack. He would have been small enough to get into the hole under the whomping willow. This would explain why the boggart changed from a sphere (the full moon) to a cockroach. He may think it is funny that Dumbledore has this absurd alter ego that no one knows about that he discovered *becasue* of his issue with the full moon and the fact that he transforms into another type of animal. "happyduck1979" From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Mar 19 10:08:22 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 10:08:22 -0000 Subject: An odd musing about Harry's attitude In-Reply-To: <20030317150603.59237.qmail@web13105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53936 First off, one thing I don't understand in English language, is love of titles. I don't know how much this has to do with culture, and how much the language... Secondly, what comes to forms of behaviour - rules of etiquette or what ever, that's Public Relations in my book. Good Manners is supposed to be concern for others... Difference... Well, Draco is the PR-man from start, and absolutely not chivalrous. His form of expressing that 'they don't know our ways' is fine, but meaning of it is bigotry. "If you don't know anything about us, you should never learn" - to put in another form. What about Fred&George or other Weasleys? They're constantly bickering at each other and laughing. Fred&George help Harry with the trunk; Ron warns Harry of Bertie Bott's; They *are* good, spontane things that good people do, right? Crouch Jr - his true, evil nature while pretending to be good man with rough exterior - was shown at least 3 times. First, while Moody might have turned Draco into ferret and bounced him a time or two, Crouch Jr. *kept on* until McGonagall stopped him. Same as with the tortured spider, he keeps on until Hermione stops him. It's hard to say if Moody would have let Harry off with "you weren't taking the egg for a walk just for fun, were you?" as Harry wouldn't even *be* there without Crouch Jr's intervening, but I think that Moody would have helped Harry off the trap-stair unasked - or at least *offer* to do so. And then - he did help Harry against Malfoy, asked after the students well-being in these 'keep torture on until stopped' - situations... so Harry did trust him - trusted, because he *did* do something good... noting the little *bad* things was too much for Harry to notice and ponder... As for Snape, Harry doesn't trust him - not because of the things he says, but for things Snape neglects to do: Snape doesn't do anything to *help* the students when Neville's cauldron melts. And, Snape never showed true loyalty to Dumbledore, unlike Harry. (I'm sure Hagrid would have, though).. It's not about form - it's about caring. A person who follows the norm but isn't caring... that's statistically most common type of a person who's guilty of domestic violence. Not to say that all of that type are, but well... Then there are those who know what's happpening but do nothing because getting involved in family life is against the norm... --Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Mar 19 09:16:28 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 09:16:28 -0000 Subject: Beginning of OotP (Re: How hard would it be..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53937 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jsherman6" wrote: Jack: > The Dursleys in danger? I sure hope so. The act of Harry or some > other Witch/Wizard (possibly Mrs. Figg?) saving the Dursleys could > change the whole relationship between Harry and the Dursleys. Me(Finwitch): Well... I think Mr Weasley helping Dudley after the little piggie ate Ton Tongue Toffee, did do something to assist that. He *did* wait until Dursleys allowed it. So - Dursleys have allowed magic to be performed in their house, even if only to undo another magic. And er.. maybe Dudley will show a *bit* more respect to other people's property from now on, particularly a wizard's - out of fear it'll do something to him... Jack: > As for the Dursleys being killed, I really don't think so. While at > the moment the Dursleys are especially cruel people, they are the > only family Harry has left. And I don't believe that JKR would > completely orphan Harry. Me(Finwitch): Except that a) killing off Dursleys would NOT completely orphan Harry. He'd still have his godfather, even though Sirius is on the run. And well, Sirius *does* care for Harry, Dursleys do NOT. b) The books *are* getting darker, mainly because Voldemort is back, but also because 15-year-old Harry sees more bad in the World. I don't think Dursleys would change if one wizard says to have saved them from another, but if Vernon learns that Mr Mason is a wizard, *then* his behaviour towards wizards and magic would change - although NOT his attitude, I guess. -- Finwitch From groml at cards.lanck.net Tue Mar 18 20:29:55 2003 From: groml at cards.lanck.net (Maria Gromova) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 23:29:55 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] When do werewolves change? Message-ID: <000201c2edfa$90dcedc0$c142983e@rcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 53938 Mark D. wrote: Personally, I don't buy the Harry Potter Lexicon's stand of placing >the books in the early 1990's. It places PofA in 94-95 which the >climactic night of Harry meeting Sirius on June 6 1995. The great >flaw with trying to tie a fictional book down to a physical date is >that JUNE 6 1995 WAS NOT A FULL MOON!!!! According to the Phases of >the moon table, the full moon for June 1995 was on the 26th starting >at 11:33 am GMT! You know, maybe she mixed these things up on purpose, so that it would be impossible to say which year it is. Dorothy Sayers made so with the tides, which are important in one novel of hers, so that you can't calculate which year or place it is. The people on the LordPeter mailing list can't make head or tail of the dates in Sayers' novels just like this, and it is commonly accepted she did it on purpose. The tides are connected with the moon, of course, so one more parallel. Maria. > > From htfulcher at comcast.net Wed Mar 19 11:25:37 2003 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 11:25:37 -0000 Subject: An odd musing about Harry's attitude - cont dislike of Snape In-Reply-To: <006601c2edac$0696d020$85155142@net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53939 Carrie S wrote: > Hi, I have just one more thought on the subject of Harry & Snape... > I wonder why after he [Harry] learns Snape tried to save his life, his feelings don't change toward Snape at all. .... Does Snape hold it against Harry that he never said "thanks, you're not so bad after all"? Does he treat Harry worse because he's resentful now. ... > > It's exactly like Snape and James. James saved Snape's life and Snape's feelings didn't seem to warm up toward James afterward. In fact he seems to feel resentful, if he even acknowledges it all. > > If you carry this farther there is even another parralel...Snape seems to feel that James owed it to him to save his life. Since Sirius lured him to follow along. Does Harry feel that Snape only tried to save him because he owed it to James? They could both be misinterpreting a noble act because they insist on disliking the person who did it. A very insightful consideration. I had never thought about the parallel between Snape's resentment of James and Harry as resenting Snape's actions to save Harry. At a psychological level this might well be at play, however we must remember that it is Ron who most often comes up with the fantasies about Snape suffering or being fired or killed, etc.. Nonetheless, particularly from PoA and GoF onward it will be interesting to observe the development of the Snape/Harry relationship (not SHIP!!!! okay?!!!). Will either of them move beyond their mutually assured hatred? MarEphraim From keithm at vsnl.com Wed Mar 19 12:58:34 2003 From: keithm at vsnl.com (ihatethis99in) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 12:58:34 -0000 Subject: Beginning of OotP (a different track) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53940 It could well be possible that the beginning of OOP will be completely uneventful. "The hottest day of the summer so far was drawing to a close and a drowsy silence lay over the large, square houses of Privet Drive.... The only person left outside was a teenage boy who was lying flat on his back in a flowerbed outside number four." Although several other inferences can be made about this extract, taken from the book one that immediately comes to mind is that the Dursleys may have purchased that holiday home in Majorca and may be there. It is possible that they have given Harry restricted access to their home on Privet Drive and Harry's taking full advantage of their absence by "lying flat on his back in a flowerbed on Privet Drive", looking up at the sky, thanking the stars that he is away from the Dursleys. Even so, I'll bet that they'll have Mrs. Figg checking up on him from time to time - to make sure that he leaves everything untouched... Because LV has been resurrected, ao to speak, it is possible that Dumbledore will leave no stone unturned when it comes to seeing that Harry gets the maximum protection, that Dumbledore, can give him, Harry, while he is at Privet Drive, over the summer. It is possible that Dumbledore might send the real 'Mad Eye' Moody to Mrs. Figgs for a little more protection - just in case LV and his cronies tried their tricks (although, in my mind, it is doubtful that he will do so this quickly). Thus, Harry could well meet Mad Eye Moody over the summer. I also feel that Sirius will go over to Lupin's place and will stay at his place over the summer - I don't think that there is any better place to hide, do you ? After all, who on earth would want to visit a werewolf? I imagine Remus must lead a very lonely life because he suffers from Lycantrophy! Remus could well be sent off to Mrs. Figgs place to help round up the other members of the Order Of The Phoenix. The smell of cabbage suggests that Mrs. Figg is an extremely good Portions brewer and would be very helpful in concocting the Portion that Remus needs in order to transform him into a tame werewolf. This, of course, is only a theory and it is possible that I am totally on the wrong track ... Keith From kozmoz4 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 19 14:26:01 2003 From: kozmoz4 at yahoo.com (kozmoz4) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 14:26:01 -0000 Subject: Could Dumbledore Really Be Evil (and what Dumbledore will confess in OoP) In-Reply-To: <147.d2a6808.2ba7c295@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53941 Behold, my first post to the group! Sorry if there is nothing new. You know, I had wondered quite a bit about the twinkle in his eye and I do not think that Harry got it wrong. Why I don't think he got it wrong is that because Harry tends to believe that people are mainly good. His parents are murdered, he lived with a horrible step family for ten years, people distrust him in every possible occasion and still he does not give up on the good in people. I mean he could have been a class A paranoid, but he isn't. Anyway, after long internal debates, I concluded that in order for Voldemort to be killed or at least be defeated in some way, he has to become a person first. And now, he has become a normal person, I think, an equal to Harry. Harry had some powers from Voldie, and now Voldie has some from Harry. And including that some powers is the link between Harry and Wormtail. What Voldie craved the most from Harry is the ability to rebound the Avada Kedavra curse, but from the first movie we know that it is a bond especially between Harry's mother and him, it is created by love. It is not, at least I think so, able to be transferred by a series of spells to another, because it is not Harry's to give. Voldemort was never able to fully understand the phonemon, and he still doesn't. He thinks Harry has a power against that curse, but in fact he doesn't. It is not a power, or a protection that can be explained by spells. It is a mother's devotion and love and compassion all concentrating on the son for one last moment, and thus leaving its mark as a protection. It is not permenant, therefore not a power to be transferred. But Dumbledore knows this. And he also knows that Voldemort doesn't. This illusion of power or protection, Voldemort's return to mortality, together with the unknown link between Wormtail and Harry puts him into a bad position actually. Voldemort has the lower hand, thus can be defeated, at last. That's what that twinkle means, Voldemort can be defeated. God I love Dumbledore, triumph implies planning, he could very possibly have planned all this, or at least saw it before hand! And don't forget the first prophecy, it maybe about Voldemort's defeat and it might include Harry. We may be seeing the prophecy coming true. (Of course we will if Rowling continues to write, but you know what I mean) Which brings us to what D. will say to Harry in OoP. I think he will explain the first prophecy being something like "Harry James Potter of Lily and James Potter will bring the downfall of the Dark Lord." Which quite explains why V. wants to kill Harry. And remember there was a lot of spying to V. from Hogwarts thanks to Wormtail, who would have most possible heard this prophecy about two of his closest friends. But V. doesn't know is that the prophecy is not about a rival or an archenemy, it is about being too confident and wrong. Triumph! Well in deed what has happened in GoF may bring that. 14 years of waiting and planning beforehand, which I believe includes giving Harry to his step family and keeping an eye on him through Ms. Figg, meaning he did all this planning in a matter of hours, in coming to fruit at last. True dark and hard times, and much sorrow is ahead, but finally light may be brought to the darkest places. Achieving that hope is a triumph, too. Yes, he did put people, especially Harry in danger, but he was always under protection, remember that. In conclusion, no I don't think he is evil. Well, what do YOU think? Kozmoz From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Mar 19 20:23:10 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 07:23:10 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] When do werewolves change? In-Reply-To: <000201c2edfa$90dcedc0$c142983e@rcomputer> Message-ID: <3E796C5E.20987.2CB6D8F@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 53942 On 18 Mar 2003 at 23:29, Maria Gromova wrote: > You know, maybe she mixed these things up on purpose, so that it would be > impossible to say which year it is. Dorothy Sayers made so with the tides, > which are important in one novel of hers, so that you can't calculate which > year or place it is. The people on the LordPeter mailing list can't make > head or tail of the dates in Sayers' novels just like this, and it is > commonly accepted she did it on purpose. The tides are connected with the > moon, of course, so one more parallel. > Maria. We also need to examine what alternatives there are. I just did a quick check for every year since 1980, to see when there was a full moon or a near full moon on June 6. 1982, 1990, 1993, 2001 2001 is the only year since 1980 when the moon was truly full on June 6 (ie, 100.00% in phase), the other years it was at at least a 95.00% totality on that date. When we consider we have other information from the books from dates, basically it becomes clear we can't perfectly resolve JKRs calendar and come up with a date that is compatible with all the evidence. That may be deliberate, or it may be accidental - but the point is, if we take the moon evidence as gospel, we then have to ignore other evidence. Setting the dates basically comes down to two things, it seems to me - deciding which evidence we consider most important and, if possible, looking for which dates have the *most* evidence behind them. >From memory, the only really clear date we have in the books in terms of a year is Nick's deathday party - we know it's been 500 years since that happened (and it's an anniversary celebration and seems important to Sir Nicholas so we're not likely to be dealing with 'roughly' 500 years, and we see 1492 as the originating date for the anniversary. That really seems to me (and bear in mind, that I like messing around with the astronomy of Harry Potter, so I wish it worked (-8 ) a lot clearer than when the full moon occurred in a given year. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "Almighty Ruler of the all; Whose power extends to great and small; Who guides the stars with steadfast law; Whose least creation fills with awe; Oh grant thy mercy and thy grace; To those who venture into space." From andry-f at postmark.net Wed Mar 19 22:11:51 2003 From: andry-f at postmark.net (anyankavengeance) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 22:11:51 -0000 Subject: An odd musing about Harry's attitude - cont dislike of Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53943 This is an interesting thread, definitely a good read . . . neat to see people's varying perspectives on Harry's behavior. One thing I do take slight issue with is the recurring 'Harry should thank Snape' bit. While I agree that, in theory, that would be the best course of action, Snape has always struck me as not *wanting* Harry to know he was saving his life. For Harry to actually thank him, it might strike Snape as Harry trying to embarass him or patronize him, rather than as a sincere effort to make amends - not to mention that, as a child, it would kind of be pretty pretentious for Harry to do something like that. Harry making amends with Snape in such a fashion would be treating Snape as an equal, when Harry, as a student, is an inferior. So I kind of think that if Harry ever did something like that, it would only make Snape hate him more, not clear the air between them. Also, Snape's actions toward the trio are so consistently deplorable and outright childish that Harry's occasional show of cheek, while certainly not the most respectful way to behave, is really invited - it would be asinine to think that, with the way Snape treats him, Harry would show nothing but perfect respect. There would also be no real reason for it - I can't picture Snape liking Harry any more no matter how respectful he was. I also dislike trying to excuse Harry's 'bad behavior' on account of his being a teenager. To me, he has shown remarkable restraint in the face of very bad situations - I mean, how many people that you know, children or not, let themselves be insulted to their faces and rarely say anything in their own defense? I know that the American school system is deeply different (usually not for the better, either) from the rest of the world, and that Hogwarts is even more different, but if Snape were teaching in an American school, he would have been long since fired regardless of how knowledgeable he is on the subject he teaches. You don't treat students like that. You don't treat anyone like that. Somebody even mentioned it being a case of 'pearls before swine', which I liked a lot . . . that says mostly everything I was trying to say in this paragraph, but in a much more . . . concise . . . form. ;) -andry From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Wed Mar 19 22:59:37 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 17:59:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Could Dumbledore Really Be Evil? In-Reply-To: <20030318132720.58324.qmail@web13113.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030319225937.69872.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53944 Katherine wrote: > "He said my blood would make him stronger than if >he'd used someone else's," Harry told Dumbledore. "He said the protection >my-my mother left in me-he'd have it too. And he was right- he could touch me >without hurting himself, he touched my face." > For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like >triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. But next second, Harry was sure he had imagined >it, for when Dumbledore had returned to his seat behind the >desk, he looked as old and weary as Harry had ever seen him." Giselle wrote: >Well Katherine IMO Dumbledore may obviously know something >that we don't. Perhaps LV having Harry's blood in his veins >is a weakness. Dumbledore may be able to use it as an >advantage in the war against LV. We just have to sit around >and wait to see what happens. kozmoz4 wrote: >You know, I had wondered quite a bit about the twinkle in >his eye and I do not think that Harry got it wrong. Why I don't think >he got it wrong is that because Harry tends to believe that people >are mainly good. His parents are murdered, he lived with a horrible >step family for ten years, people distrust him in every possible >occasion and still he does not give up on the good in people. I mean he >could have been a class A paranoid, but he isn't. >That's what that twinkle means, Voldemort can be defeated. >God I love Dumbledore, triumph implies planning, he could very >possibly have planned all this, or at least saw it before hand! And don't >forget the first prophecy, it maybe about Voldemort's defeat and >it might include Harry. We may be seeing the prophecy coming true. >(Of course we will if Rowling continues to write, but you know what I mean) And now Me: This is something I've wondered about since the first time I read it. I believed instantly that Harry was NOT seeing things and that Dumbledore really did have a twinkle in his eye. Now that Voldemort is carrying Harry's blood, he has opened himself to a weakness, which of course he doesn't see yet. My first thought was that the weakness is LOVE, since that is the magic that Harry carries in his veins from his mother. In Harry's case the Love is his strength, but we all know that "love hurts" and now Dumbledore knows there is a way to get at Voldemort - through the very blood in his veins. Harry's blood may have helped bring Voldemort back to life, but in the end I believe this will also prove to be his undoing. Of course we'll have to wait and see what JKR has to say about all this! Oh yeah, and my 2nd thought on this matter - how will they be able to use this new information against Voldemort? Hmm... maybe a little chat with our Potions Master might be the catalyst to get something brewing? Lea (who will now go back to lurking and just enjoying everyone's shared thoughts - and thanks to everyone for making me laugh on a daily basis!) --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grosich at nyc.rr.com Wed Mar 19 23:43:48 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina R Rosich) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 18:43:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: An odd musing about Harry's attitude - cont dislike of Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53945 On 3/19/03 5:11 PM, "anyankavengeance" had this to say: > This is an interesting thread, definitely a good read . . . neat to > see people's varying perspectives on Harry's behavior. One thing I do > take slight issue with is the recurring 'Harry should thank > Snape' bit. While I agree that, in theory, that would be the best > course of action, Snape has always struck me as not *wanting* Harry > to know he was saving his life. For Harry to actually thank him, it > might strike Snape as Harry trying to embarass him or patronize > him, rather than as a sincere effort to make amends - not to mention > that, as a child, it would kind of be pretty pretentious for Harry to > do something like that. Harry making amends with Snape in such a > fashion would be treating Snape as an equal, when Harry, as a > student, is an inferior. So I kind of think that if Harry ever did > something like that, it would only make Snape hate him more, not > clear the air between them. > > > Wow, Andry. Isn?t it fascinating how people can like the same thing yet disagree so much? This is fun. Anyway, I don?t see Harry thanking Snape as making them equals. I think Harry thanking Snape would acknowledge Snape?s skills and intentions. It would be a sign of high respect. Mind you, I don?t think Snape wants a thank you from Harry specifically. He is a work-behind-the-scenes kind of guy. He is not interested in ostentatious displays. He would absolutely find that embarrassing. But he has a valid point of view regarding Harry?s safety. And Harry (being a child) does not always realize how much people are doing for him. I found it striking how, in PoA, Lupin says the exact same thing Snape does. That Harry?s parents would not appreciate giving their lives so Harry could disregard protection and sneak out of the school (paraphrasing). But because Lupin is warm and fuzzy and liked, he knows how to get through to Harry. I just think Snape might have a lot more patience towards Harry if he knew Harry appreciated what everyone was doing for him. Especially Snape, who does so much and so thanklessly. Not that Snape would become Harry?s confidante or mentor or equal. --- Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bobafett at harbornet.com Wed Mar 19 23:41:25 2003 From: bobafett at harbornet.com (BoBaFeTT) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 15:41:25 -0800 Subject: Who is the boy? References: Message-ID: <000a01c2ee71$0fc9e540$c8aa42cf@home> No: HPFGUIDX 53946 In the snippit from the begining of the book it says Quote: . The only person left outside was a teenage boy who was lying flat on his back in a flowerbed outside number four. Well seeing as he is seeing a boy it can't be Harry and I would think if it was Dudley he would have said the fat lump Dudley. So who is this boy??? -BoBaFeTT You can respod here or in my forums @ http://www.godrics-hollow.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=90#90 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu Mar 20 01:22:06 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 19:22:06 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who is the boy? References: <000a01c2ee71$0fc9e540$c8aa42cf@home> Message-ID: <00b801c2ee7f$2168aa80$f99ecdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 53947 BoBaFeTT wrote: > Well seeing as he is seeing a boy it can't be Harry and I would think if it was > Dudley he would have said the fat lump Dudley. > > So who is this boy??? It could easily be Harry. Though the books are written from his perspective, they're in the third person, not first. For example, SS/PS "The room held no sign at all that another boy lived in the house, too. Yet Harry Potter was still there, asleep at the moment, but not for long." It could be Harry, my mother insists it's Harry laying face down talking to Dobby. Who knows. It could be Dudley, though I have my doubts. Unless the next sentence says something about howls coming from the teenage boy. I had a dream not long after the release date was announced, and in that dream it was one of the twins. I woke up before I read far enough to find out why. :) I usually don't put much stock in dreams, but considering in the same dream the book was 906 pages which turns out to be only 10 pages more than it really is (US edition) you just never know. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Audra1976 at aol.com Thu Mar 20 01:23:37 2003 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 20:23:37 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who is the boy? Message-ID: <14f.1cfbcfa1.2baa7219@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53948 In a message dated 19/03/2003 20:09:36 Eastern Standard Time, bobafett at harbornet.com writes: > Well seeing as he is seeing a boy it can't be Harry and I would think if it > was Dudley he would have said the fat lump Dudley. > So who is this boy??? Me: You can't rule out Harry. The story is told in the third person, so it's the narrator speaking, not Harry. The other possibilities in my mind are Dudley and James. They don't have to make reference to Dudley's weight. Heck, Dudley might even have shed a few pounds over the year. And it could be a flaskback, so it might even be a teenage James outside Lily's house. Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 02:20:19 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 02:20:19 -0000 Subject: Question about Harry's scar In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030318140148.0096ae60@mail.spamcop.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53949 Thank you Jennifer, Abigail and Steve for answering my question. :D Greicy From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 02:35:07 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 02:35:07 -0000 Subject: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: <14f.1cfbcfa1.2baa7219@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53950 bobafett at h... writes: >Well seeing as he is seeing a boy it can't be Harry and I would >think if it was Dudley he would have said the fat lump Dudley. >So who is this boy??? Audra wrote: >You can't rule out Harry. The story is told in the third person, so >it's the narrator speaking, not Harry. The other possibilities in >my mind are Dudley and James. They don't have to make reference to >Dudley's weight. Heck, Dudley might even have shed a few pounds >over the year. And it could be a flaskback, so it might even be a >teenage James outside Lily's house. It could be anyone, James or Dudley, but since the book is about Harry I always assumed it was Harry. Though GoF didn't start off talking about Harry, maybe she'll start talking about someone else. Maybe we'll finally get to learn more about James and Lily! Audra thanks for giving me hope! The sooner she talks about James and Lily, the better. Although, it does say outside number four and the "number four" has only been used for 4 Privet Drive. So it should be about Harry. Unless Hermione, lives in 4 something drive, avenue, street. ;) Has anyone noticed that the quote suggest that Harry, or whomever, wasn't alone at first, but that he was left alone? As if there was a gathering outside and everyone decided to go inside. "The only person left outside was a teenage boy who was lying flat on his back in a flowerbed outside number four." Greicy, who hopes that Harry and Ron visits Hermione's home From patricia at obscure.org Thu Mar 20 01:18:43 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 20:18:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: <000a01c2ee71$0fc9e540$c8aa42cf@home> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53951 On Wed, 19 Mar 2003, BoBaFeTT wrote: > In the snippit from the begining of the book it says > > Quote: > . The only person left outside was a teenage boy who was lying > flat on his back in a flowerbed outside number four. > > Well seeing as he is seeing a boy it can't be Harry and I would think if > it was Dudley he would have said the fat lump Dudley. > > So who is this boy??? What makes you think *Harry* is seeing the boy in the flowerbed? Or in fact that anyone at all sees the boy in the flowerbed? The quote doesn't say "Harry saw that the only person left outside was a teenage boy..." It states simply that "The only person left outside was a teenage boy..." There's nothing about anyone *seeing* anyone else in that quote. It just states where the boy is, and that he was the only one outside. I think we are meant to assume the boy is Harry (Dudley certainly doesn't seem like the lounging-in-a-flowerbed type), but there won't be any way to confirm that until we get to see the rest of the text. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From imhotep1 at rcn.com Thu Mar 20 01:22:56 2003 From: imhotep1 at rcn.com (imhotep1) Date: 19 Mar 2003 17:22:56 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: An odd musing about Harry's attitude - cont dislike of Snape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1048123377.26655.16.camel@princess> No: HPFGUIDX 53952 On Wed, 2003-03-19 at 14:11, anyankavengeance wrote: > One thing I do > take slight issue with is the recurring 'Harry should thank > Snape' bit. While I agree that, in theory, that would be the best > course of action, Snape has always struck me as not *wanting* Harry > to know he was saving his life. For Harry to actually thank him, it > might strike Snape as Harry trying to embarrass him or patronize > him, rather than as a sincere effort to make amends - not to mention > that, as a child, it would kind of be pretty pretentious for Harry to > do something like that. I think we will probably see some sort of apology in the next book. Now that Harry knows some more about Snape, I think he can finally have a chance to talk to him in a non-student/teacher way (as Voldemort foe to Voldemort foe) This can be done without insulting Snape or implying they are equals. The fact is, no one is really inferior to another person, not across the board. Even a little child can do things that and adult can't (babies, for instance, easily suck on their own feet, but I have to get all bent out of shape and crook my leg around my arm to do the same thing. Not that I suck on my feet all the time, it's just that I needed an analogy and that was the first thing that came to mind.) Harry is inferior to Snape when it comes to education, and raw magical talent, but Harry has other abilities (possibly quite a few we haven't even seen yet) which make him indispensable in the fight against LV. I think the more interesting question than will they every have a chat and straighten out their relationship, but how will this affect the way Snape treats HHR. I have no doubt that Snape would never start being "nice" to his pupils, or start to favor Gryffindors the way he favors Slytherins. But would an attempt by Harry and Snape to get along outside of Hogwarts (for the good of the battle vs LV) result in Snape being meaner at Hogwarts. Will we see some sort of mean office speech by Snape something like "We may work together in battle, Potter, but at Hogwarts you mean nothing more to me that a flobberworm!" I think all and all Harry is capable of bridging the Snape relationship gap somewhat, but the dynamic that it will take when he does, I guess we'll just have to wait to find out. -Jeremy From andry-f at postmark.net Thu Mar 20 01:41:59 2003 From: andry-f at postmark.net (anyankavengeance) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 01:41:59 -0000 Subject: An odd musing about Harry's attitude - cont dislike of Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53953 > Wow, Andry. Isn?t it fascinating how people can like the same thing yet > disagree so much? This is fun. I agree completely . . . debates are one of the best forms of education and entertainment. They're also a mighty good way of putting off Algebra II and Biology homework. > Anyway, I don?t see Harry thanking Snape as making them equals. I think > Harry thanking Snape would acknowledge Snape?s skills and intentions. It > would be a sign of high respect. It depends completely on the way he does the thanking . . . speaking as a high school student myself, I would feel kind of rude, thanking my teachers for something I wasn't really supposed to know they were doing. It would be almost like I was trying to show them up. But again, it depends on the method of the thanking. And I'm not sure it would be a sign of high respect, since there is literally no respect between the two characters. If anything, it would just be an acknowledgement of Snape's good intentions and efforts, something that, in Harry's perspective, he usually lacks. > Mind you, I don?t think Snape wants a thank you from Harry specifically . . . He would absolutely find that embarrassing. Exactly. A direct thank you would be almost insulting. Honestly, though, and I'm not trying to be dense here, but I don't really see any other way Harry could thank him. He could try being more polite, I suppose, but that might only annoy Snape more . . . > But he > has a valid point of view regarding Harry?s safety. And Harry (being a > child) does not always realize how much people are doing for him. No, he doesn't . . . and I don't think we do either, but that's a debate for another day. ;) However, I do think he had a pretty good measure of how much Snape helped him in the first book. I don't think being grateful ever crossed his mind . . . in his eyes, it was still selfish aims - Snape trying to cancel a life debt between he and James, rather than a sincere desire to help Harry. > I found it striking how, in PoA, Lupin says the exact same thing Snape does. That Harry?s parents would not appreciate giving their lives so Harry could disregard protection and sneak out of the school (paraphrasing). But because Lupin is warm and fuzzy and liked, he knows how to get through to Harry. I just think Snape might have a lot more patience towards Harry if he knew Harry appreciated what everyone was doing for him. Especially Snape, who does so much and so thanklessly. I think we run into characterization issues here, and different interpretations thereof. I think it is a big part of Snape's character that he *isn't* thanked for what he does - I've always gotten the impression that he loved being able to pick his wounds like that, being the perverse little bugger he is. But I don't know . . . if Harry ever found a subtle and understated enough way of thanking him, if one such way exists, I do agree we might find Snape a tad less abrasive. ;) "Andry" From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Thu Mar 20 03:03:23 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 22:03:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030320030323.24702.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53954 Grace said: >Has anyone noticed that the quote suggest that Harry, or >whomever, >wasn't alone at first, but that he was left alone? As if >there was a >gathering outside and everyone decided to go inside. >"The only person left outside was a teenage boy who was >lying flat on >his back in a flowerbed outside number four." And me: I had two different thoughts on this as well - it could be the end of the day and everyone else has gone iside - all the neighbours, etc, or it could be one of those really sunny, warm afternoons when no one really wants to stay outside (even though we grumble about winters). But in both cases my thoughts went to neighbours, not anyone else. However it is definitely written in such a manner to make one believe that he (whoever HE is) was not outside by himself for very long. Maybe it is Harry and he had just received another lecture from Aunt Petunia about not helping out enough and what he should be doing at that precise momennt - which was NOT to be lying in the flowerbed and possible enjoying himself! Lea --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 05:55:55 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 05:55:55 -0000 Subject: An odd musing about Harry's attitude - cont dislike of Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53955 Andry: > However, I do think he had a pretty good > measure of how much Snape helped him in the first book. I don't think > being grateful ever crossed his mind . . . in his eyes, it was still > selfish aims - Snape trying to cancel a life debt between he and > James, rather than a sincere desire to help Harry. I do agree that Snape would find Harry thanking him embarassing, if not insulting. You know, as the mockery in exaggerated, formal courtesy... Harry won't do that. And besides, I find it questionable whether Snape *did* save Harry's life in the first place. Hermione broke both Quirrell's and Snape's eye-contact with the fire-spell, thus putting an END to the jinxes. If anyone saved Harry's life, it was Hermione far more than Snape with his uneffective counter-jinxes. And, falling off his broomstick might not have killed Harry, just injure is arm - as happened when he *did* fall off in CoS. --Finnwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 06:24:48 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 06:24:48 -0000 Subject: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53956 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: > Has anyone noticed that the quote suggest that Harry, or whomever, > wasn't alone at first, but that he was left alone? As if there was a > gathering outside and everyone decided to go inside. > > "The only person left outside was a teenage boy who was lying flat on > his back in a flowerbed outside number four." Good point, Greicy. But why would any teenage boy lie on his back in flowerbed? Good start, I must say... there's something wrong with the boy - he's probably unconsious or unable to move, if not dead. It could be Harry, Dudley or even Draco Malfoy. With Polyjuice Potion, that boy could be anyone! -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 06:59:12 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 06:59:12 -0000 Subject: Could Dumbledore Really Be Evil?/Harry's question In-Reply-To: <20030319225937.69872.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53957 Lea: > > This is something I've wondered about since the first time I read it. I believed instantly that Harry was NOT seeing things and that Dumbledore really did have a twinkle in his eye. Now that Voldemort is carrying Harry's blood, he has opened himself to a weakness, which of course he doesn't see yet. > Me: I think we all agree that Harry was not seeing things, that Dumbledore did have a twinkle in his eyes... Harry dismisses it because he doesn't understand the connection. Hermione's even worse in dismissing/not sharing things she doesn't understand - she must be sure before she shares, and she dismisses house-elves NOT wanting pension, vacation etc as brain-wash, because she doesn't understand such attitude (but I'm sure any Hufflepuff would). Lea: > Oh yeah, and my 2nd thought on this matter - how will they be able to use this new information against Voldemort? Hmm... maybe a little chat with our Potions Master might be the catalyst to get something brewing? Me: Yes, well... I suppose Snape *would* make a potion -- but what kind? Polyjuice, with Crouch Jr.'s hair, to meet up with Voldemort?? Then again, Harry's not likely to be in on that plan... However, Harry's to ask a question JKR hopes we'd feel he should have asked a long time ago (or so I read somewhere). Some questions: One he's already asked - Why do wizards hide from Muggles? - but Hagrid probably wasn't the right person to answer... I mean really - if Muggles would seek magic as an easy answer, wizards can just refuse, right? Honestly, if a muggle i.e. points a gun at said wizard, the wizard could turn that gun into a flower or something... Or.. Ask Sirius for his account on what Snape calls "murder" and Lupin "trick" - what has Sirius to say? Innocent until proven guilty is one leading theme in all series, mostly in PoA... I still have that 'accident' theory on that: Sirius may have toyed with the idea of Snape getting bitten with Lupin without planning to do it; Snape overheard Sirius and Pettigrew talking about getting past Whomping Willow, just after before Pettigrew became animagus, and they might have been planning to surprise Lupin; Sirius notices that Snape overheard and tells James, who rushes in to save Snape that night... Or um-- Ask Aunt Petunia about his Mom's childhood... Anyone else come up with a question Harry should have asked? -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 07:15:27 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 07:15:27 -0000 Subject: Beginning of OotP (a different track) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53958 Keith: > It could well be possible that the beginning of OOP will be > completely uneventful. > > "The hottest day of the summer so far was drawing to a close and a > drowsy silence lay over the large, square houses of Privet Drive.... > The only person left outside was a teenage boy who was lying flat on > his back in a flowerbed outside number four." Perhaps-- He could be recalling his previous life (there's *always* a summary of previous books in!) and Harry could, after that, wake up with a big black dog licking his face. (Sirius, of course, fetching Harry to buy his school books or something...) -- Finwitch From vincentjh at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 09:11:26 2003 From: vincentjh at yahoo.com (vincentjh) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:11:26 -0000 Subject: An odd musing about Harry's attitude - cont dislike of Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53959 "finwitch" wrote: > > Harry won't do that. And besides, I find it questionable whether > Snape *did* save Harry's life in the first place. Hermione broke both > Quirrell's and Snape's eye-contact with the fire-spell, thus putting > an END to the jinxes. If anyone saved Harry's life, it was Hermione > far more than Snape with his uneffective counter-jinxes. And, falling > off his broomstick might not have killed Harry, just injure is arm - > as happened when he *did* fall off in CoS. > > Actually, the broken arm wasn't a result of a fall. It came from being hit by a bludger. Snape might not have saved Harry. But he did intend to do so. And I,too, find it troubling that Harry did not at least show some respect for Snape after that. True, Snape might be partial to Slytherin and might be quite mean to Harry at times. But I don't think Snape was particularly bad when it comes to favorism. There have been numerous instances when when others favored Gryffindor, going so far as bending the rules for Harry. But Harry hasn't been able to see that and his own privilege in many respects. Unfortunately, I don't think his godfather or other adults around him whom he respects would be able to help him see that. VJH From chrissilein at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 09:42:08 2003 From: chrissilein at yahoo.com (Christiane Hendriksen) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 01:42:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: An odd musing about Harry's attitude - cont dislike of Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030320094208.40208.qmail@web13409.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53960 Hi, I guess Harry has a fundamental problem with any person who arent ready to admire him in any form or way. But this is an unconsious behaviour. And he is still a child. It seems to me, that Sirius Black supports Harry in this way (he isnt a dunderhead). He just love it to proclaim his childish opinions against Severus Snape for Harry. This is my fundamental critic against Sirius Black. Im convinced a man in his age shouldnt act in this way. Remus acts as an adult and mature person, Sirius is still like a teenager. Severus Snape are often right concerning Harry, but it seems that he has no ability to show his views on Harry in a more acceptable speech. He argues hard and dogmatically. "As father, as son". I hope my English is understandable. Chrissi __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Mar 20 10:18:46 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloise_herisson) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:18:46 -0000 Subject: Snape saving Harry (was: Re: An odd musing about Harry's attitude - ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53961 Finwitch: <> And besides, I find it questionable whether > Snape *did* save Harry's life in the first place. Hermione broke both > Quirrell's and Snape's eye-contact with the fire-spell, thus putting > an END to the jinxes. If anyone saved Harry's life, it was Hermione > far more than Snape with his uneffective counter-jinxes. And, falling > off his broomstick might not have killed Harry, just injure is arm - > as happened when he *did* fall off in CoS. Snape's counter-curses weren't ineffective - they were what kept Harry on his broom. It was certainly Hermione's unintentional breaking of Quirrel's eye-contact that finally put an end to the jinx, but if Snape *hadn't* done what he did, I think we can be certain that Harry *would* have fallen - and probably from a great height. I think you may be conflating two or more events in your next comment. In CoS, Harry's arm was broken by the Rogue Bludger, not a fall from his broom. Neville, OTOH, did break his wrist when he fell from his broom in PS/SS. The time that Harry *did* fall of his broom was during the Gryffindor/Hufflepuff game in PoA (Grim Defeat)after the Demetors invaded the pitch. He survived unscathed because Dumbledore used magic to slow his descent to the ground. What would have happened to him if Dumbledore hadn't done this, we don't know. Certainly other members of the Quidditch team thought he'd been killed as it was. ~Eloise Convinced that if Quirrell *had* got Harry off his broom, Snape would have used the same spell to give Harry a soft landing. From groml at cards.lanck.net Thu Mar 20 12:20:38 2003 From: groml at cards.lanck.net (Maria Gromova) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:20:38 +0300 Subject: Godric Gryffindor from Shropshire? Message-ID: <019e01c2eedb$1eb01560$9542983e@rcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 53962 You know, I have a distinct impression Godric Gryffindor was from Shropshire. There is a place called Godric's Ford in Ellis Peters' historical mystery novels. Maybe she made this name up, but Shropshire is also a moorland county, and the Sorting Hat's song says Gryffindor was 'from wild moor'. Sounds like Shropshire to me. Maybe this is where his home (Godric's Hollow) was. Maria. From tracey.burkhardt at gnb.ca Thu Mar 20 14:19:18 2003 From: tracey.burkhardt at gnb.ca (iwishiwerehermione) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:19:18 -0000 Subject: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53963 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > --- > But why would any teenage boy lie on his back in > flowerbed? Good start, I must say... there's something wrong with the > boy - he's probably unconsious or unable to move, if not dead. It > could be Harry, Dudley or even Draco Malfoy. With Polyjuice Potion, > that boy could be anyone! > I hadn't considered the possibility of Polyjuice Potion. I assumed that the teenage boy was Harry and he was likely hiding from Dudley or he was indeed unconcious through some action of Dudley's. --iwishiwerehermione From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 15:15:56 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:15:56 -0000 Subject: Could Dumbledore Really Be Evil? In-Reply-To: <20030319225937.69872.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53964 Katherine wrote: >"He said my blood would make him stronger than if >he'd used someone else's," Harry told Dumbledore. "He said the >protection my-my mother left in me-he'd have it too. And he was >right- he could touch me without hurting himself, he touched my >face." >For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something >like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. But next second, Harry was sure >he had imagined it, for when Dumbledore had returned to his seat >behind the desk, he looked as old and weary as Harry had ever seen >him." Giselle wrote: >Well Katherine IMO Dumbledore may obviously know something >that we don't. Perhaps LV having Harry's blood in his veins >is a weakness. Dumbledore may be able to use it as an >advantage in the war against LV. We just have to sit around >and wait to see what happens. kozmoz4 wrote: >You know, I had wondered quite a bit about the twinkle in >his eye and I do not think that Harry got it wrong. Why I don't >think he got it wrong is that because Harry tends to believe that >people are mainly good. His parents are murdered, he lived with a >horrible step family for ten years, people distrust him in every >possible occasion and still he does not give up on the good in >people. I mean he could have been a class A paranoid, but he isn't. >That's what that twinkle means, Voldemort can be defeated. >God I love Dumbledore, triumph implies planning, he could very >possibly have planned all this, or at least saw it before hand! And >don't forget the first prophecy, it maybe about Voldemort's defeat >and it might include Harry. We may be seeing the prophecy coming >true. >(Of course we will if Rowling continues to write, but you know what I mean) Lea: >This is something I've wondered about since the first time I read >it. I believed instantly that Harry was NOT seeing things and that >Dumbledore really did have a twinkle in his eye. Now that >Voldemort is carrying Harry's blood, he has opened himself to a >weakness, which of course he doesn't see yet. >My first thought was that the weakness is LOVE, since that is the >magic that Harry carries in his veins from his mother. In Harry's >case the Love is his strength, but we all know that "love hurts" >and now Dumbledore knows there is a way to get at Voldemort - through the very blood in his veins. Harry's blood may have helped bring Voldemort back to life, but in the end I believe this will also prove to be his undoing. Of course we'll have to wait and see what JKR has to say about all this! >Oh yeah, and my 2nd thought on this matter - how will they be able >to use this new information against Voldemort? Hmm... maybe a >little chat with our Potions Master might be the catalyst to get >something brewing? Maybe when Harry experiences love hurting, say when that significant person dies in OoP, Voldemort will feel Harry's pain, the loss of losing someone you love, and perhaps guilt because I'm sure Harry will feel guilty from now on when a loved one dies. Voldemort will feel think that he is putting Harry in a vulnerable position to know when he is most weak and who makes him weak. Yet not knowing that he, too, is putting himself in that vulnerable position. Making him human, which he doesn't want to be, and weaker. IMO, this will kill him, slowly, but unknowingly. If there's a way for love to kill, that is. Greicy From ickle_ronniekins at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 15:24:38 2003 From: ickle_ronniekins at yahoo.com (ickle_ronniekins) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:24:38 -0000 Subject: OotP Covers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53965 Okay, it's been a looong time since I last posted here, but since no one brought this up yet... Have you seen the OotP Covers? Check them out at the-leaky-cauldron.org. Though I don't think we can deduce much plot from these covers. -Ron From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 15:35:19 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:35:19 -0000 Subject: HHR Abilities (was An odd musing about Harry's attitude - cont dislike of Snape) In-Reply-To: <1048123377.26655.16.camel@princess> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53966 Jeremy/imhotep1 wrote: >Harry is inferior to Snape when it comes to education, and raw >magical talent, but Harry has other abilities (possibly quite a few >we haven't even seen yet) which make him indispensable in the fight >against LV. Now I've been thinking lately that Harry, imo, seems to have super- magical powers, or something. That's why Voldemort wants to kill him. Ron seems to be a Seer/Psychic because anytime he jokes it pretty much comes true. Hermione doesn't seem to have a "super magical" abilities. She is super-intelligent, but it's because she reads a lot (photogenic memory) and she can put things together that Ron and Harry wouldn't be able to do on their own, imo. There's no doubt in my mind that the Trio were put together by destiny (JKR destiny) because together they are unstoppable and have super-magical powers. (Heck, sometimes, I like to think there was something in the water the year Harry's class was conceived and they ALL have super-magical powers. It'd be nice to see that class attack Voldemort with their super-magical powers because it seems that the De's and Voldemort attacked a lot of their parents, hence the Bones, Longbottoms and Potters). So does anyone know what super-magical powers Hermione could have? It'd be funny to see she develops her powers after Ron and Harry being that she likes to be the first in everything. Greicy From patricia at obscure.org Thu Mar 20 15:38:26 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:38:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53967 On Thu, 20 Mar 2003, finwitch wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" > wrote: > > Has anyone noticed that the quote suggest that Harry, or whomever, > > wasn't alone at first, but that he was left alone? As if there was a > > gathering outside and everyone decided to go inside. > > > > "The only person left outside was a teenage boy who was lying flat on > > his back in a flowerbed outside number four." > > Good point, Greicy. But why would any teenage boy lie on his back in > flowerbed? Good start, I must say... there's something wrong with the > boy - he's probably unconsious or unable to move, if not dead. It > could be Harry, Dudley or even Draco Malfoy. With Polyjuice Potion, > that boy could be anyone! My first assumption was that something stunning or shocking had recently happened (an unexpected outburst of magic, a visit from the MoM, or maybe the revelation of previously unknown information) and Harry was lying in the flowerbed trying to make sense of it all. The Dursleys, on the other hand, would have retreated into the house to avoid the fallout. 93 days left till we find out for sure. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From grosich at nyc.rr.com Thu Mar 20 15:40:13 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina Rosich) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 07:40:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Harry and Snape and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030320154013.26789.qmail@web13104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53968 I just finished rereading GoF last night. And I found a few things striking. First, Harry mentions several times in the last few chapters that Dumbledore seems very powerful, yet is looking old and tired. Second, his eyes linger on Snape at the leaving feast contemplatively. Snape does the same, for a short bit. But Harry's linger longer. Finally, Hagrid ominously says that they'll all be safe so long as Dumbledore is around. What seemed most apparent to me was that Dumbledore, while fully capable, may be starting to feel he is not up to spearheading another war. Yes, he responds. But he is 150 years old. Someone else MUST carry the torch on. So, I think he will feel compelled to tell Harry "everything he should have 5 years ago" in preparation for his own departure. I also think Snape and Harry will regard each other much differently in the future. A small part of me wonders if Snape is jealous of Harry's power at such a young age. That he is able to fight off Voldemort better than most grown wizards. Snape was not able to do that. He joined, then left. Which is admirable in itself (I am an unabashed Snape fan). But nonethless, that was his own ordeal and journey. Harry now knows things about Snape many others his age don't. And they are on the same side and went through quite an ordeal against Fudge. Harry is suspicious of Snape, but knows Dumbledore trusts him. He will be forced to reconcile that into his world view. And I'm sure we will learn so much more about Snape's history and bravery, what lurks below the surface. I can easily foresee the day these two can look each other squarely in the face as adult men working together. And I fully believe Harry will be a formidable leader in years to come. As for Snape or Dumbledore et al. being evil. I don't buy it for 2 reasons. One, Harry cannot live in a world where no one is what they seem and everyone is evil. Too depressing and a bit pointless. Second, the foe glass. Snape, Dumbledore and McGonagall appeared very clearly in Crouch-Moody's foe glass. If one of them was really on Voldemort's side, their face wouldn't appear. I don't have reason (yet!) to doubt the accuracy of the foe glass. And Snape's image in it was mentioned more than once. Gina :-) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From artsylynda at aol.com Thu Mar 20 16:00:20 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:00:20 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who is the boy? Message-ID: <19b.124a4a90.2bab3f94@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53969 Greicy: > Has anyone noticed that the quote suggest that Harry, or whomever, > wasn't alone at first, but that he was left alone? As if there was a > gathering outside and everyone decided to go inside. > > "The only person left outside was a teenage boy who was lying flat on > his back in a flowerbed outside number four." > the paragraph says the day is drawing to a close. His being left alone outside to me means everyone else has gone in to dinner, TV, whatever *family* activities they choose. Harry has no "family" activities to join in, so he's left alone outside -- he wouldn't want to join the Dursleys in any family activity even if they wanted him to. At least that's how I read it. I can see him stretched out there, gangly long legs and arms, hands behind his head, hair blowing around in the breeze, the red sunset reflected in his glasses, or maybe the first gleam of moonlight reflected there -- a peaceful scene until Aunt Petunia sees he's in the flowerbed! Then again, maybe it's Ron and he apparated by accident and landed there?? heehee (yeah, I know underage wizards aren't supposed to apparate. . .) Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From julia at thequiltbug.com Thu Mar 20 16:05:17 2003 From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 08:05:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] HHR Abilities (was An odd musing about Harry's attitude - cont dislike of Snape) Message-ID: <20030320080517.15363.h009.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53970 "grace701" wrote: > Now I've been thinking lately that Harry, imo, seems to have super- > magical powers, or something. That's why Voldemort wants to kill > him. Ron seems to be a Seer/Psychic because anytime he jokes it > pretty much comes true. Hermione doesn't seem to have a "super > magical" abilities. She is super-intelligent, but it's because she > reads a lot (photogenic memory) and she can put things together that > Ron and Harry wouldn't be able to do on their own, imo. > > There's no doubt in my mind that the Trio were put together by > destiny (JKR destiny) because together they are unstoppable and have > super-magical powers. (Heck, sometimes, I like to think there was > something in the water the year Harry's class was conceived and they > ALL have super-magical powers. It'd be nice to see that class attack > Voldemort with their super-magical powers because it seems that the > De's and Voldemort attacked a lot of their parents, hence the Bones, > Longbottoms and Potters). > > So does anyone know what super-magical powers Hermione could have? > It'd be funny to see she develops her powers after Ron and Harry > being that she likes to be the first in everything. In a way, I would like to see them each have some "special" ability, but then again, I don't. I kind of like the fact that they are "ordinary" in talent but "extraordinary" in their determination and resourcefulness. Many fanfiction authors (myself included) that give the Trio certain extraordinary magical gifts have Hermione be a healer-type. I don't know why we do that - there's no evidence in canon of her being gifted in that area - other than the stereotypical female-character-as-healer-and-nurturer type. I think JKR is much more creative than that, though, and if she comes up with a "special" ability for Hermione, it won't be healing (although it would come in handy to patch everyone up from time to time.) --Calliope http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/ http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 16:19:40 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:19:40 -0000 Subject: Beginning of OotP (a different track) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53971 finwitch wrote: >But why would any teenage boy lie on his back in >flowerbed? Good start, I must say... there's something wrong with >the boy - he's probably unconsious or unable to move, if not dead. finwitch (in another post): >Perhaps-- He could be recalling his previous life (there's *always* >a summary of previous books in!) and Harry could, after that, wake >up with a big black dog licking his face. (Sirius, of course, >fetching Harry to buy his school books or something...) Well why wouldn't Harry lay on the flowerbed? I've always seen Harry as enjoying the simple things in life. So it isn't out of the ordinary, to me, for him to lay in the flowerbed. It could be a place where he's always laid to think about things, it may soothe him. Gulplum, made it clear for me, that in the last chapter of GoF, a month has passed by since June 24 (the day V came back). Which means it is July 24 and Harry is recalling the events that have occurred since June 24 (mind you H/H shippers! this means Harry remembers Hermione doing something she's *never* -my emphasis- done before which is to kiss him on the cheek!). Do you understand what I'm saying? Maybe someone else could explain it better. =) I'm starting to believe that the first chapter of OoP is on July 24. "The only person left outside was a teenage boy (Harry) who was lying flat on his back in a flowerbed outside number four," recalling the events after his confrontation with Voldemort, and the death of Cedric, which was on June 24. JKR, not only started GoF differently, but ended it differently as well. It ended in July and not June. I *LOVE* how JKR is now finally describing Harry as a teenage boy. He's growing up! Greicy, who had to sneak in an H/H Shipping comment and got emotional at the thought of a teenage Harry From melissac at self-serv.net Thu Mar 20 13:45:02 2003 From: melissac at self-serv.net (Melissa) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 07:45:02 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is the boy? References: <20030320030323.24702.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005001c2eee6$e95cff70$f25d70d1@idoac3o594gxzp> No: HPFGUIDX 53972 I have two other thoughts - Maybe it's Ron come to visit Harry. Maybe it's a teenage LV and he's got enough strength to be human again - in the form of a teenager?? Melissa Grace said: >Has anyone noticed that the quote suggest that Harry, or >whomever, >wasn't alone at first, but that he was left alone? As if >there was a >gathering outside and everyone decided to go inside. >"The only person left outside was a teenage boy who was >lying flat on >his back in a flowerbed outside number four." And me: I had two different thoughts on this as well - it could be the end of the day and everyone else has gone iside - all the neighbours, etc, or it could be one of those really sunny, warm afternoons when no one really wants to stay outside (even though we grumble about winters). But in both cases my thoughts went to neighbours, not anyone else. However it is definitely written in such a manner to make one believe that he (whoever HE is) was not outside by himself for very long. Maybe it is Harry and he had just received another lecture from Aunt Petunia about not helping out enough and what he should be doing at that precise momennt - which was NOT to be lying in the flowerbed and possible enjoying himself! Lea --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 16:37:57 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:37:57 -0000 Subject: Snape saving Harry AND An odd musing about Harry's attitude - ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53973 eloise_herisson wrote: >The time that Harry *did* fall of his broom was during the >Gryffindor/Hufflepuff game in PoA (Grim Defeat)after the Demetors >invaded the pitch. He survived unscathed because Dumbledore used >magic to slow his descent to the ground. What would have happened >to him if Dumbledore hadn't done this, we don't know. Certainly >other members of the Quidditch team thought he'd been killed as it >was. Weird how Dumbledore and Snape try to save Harry from falling off a broom, but I recall Angelina and Wood falling off in SS/PS and no one trying to soften their fall. Then again, I have bad memory and I'm at work, so could someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I tried to get out of this conversation, but I can't help but comment on Harry's not thanking Snape. Let's face it, he doesn't like Snape. He's going to feel funny thanking Snape, someone who he doesn't like saved him. Who wants to thank someone you don't like, it's admitting your wrong and it'll show in your face. Harry doesn't know how to hide his dislike for Snape. So if he were to go up to Snape and thank him, Snape see that Harry doesn't really want to thank him. I'm sure Snape wasn't very grateful to James when James save his life. Imagine Snape trying to thank James?! It wouldn't be sincere at all and I bet he would have made a nasty remark. I think he would have prefered to have been killed. If Harry were to thank him now, Snape would just brush it off in some way to make Harry not like him even more. Though, I believe there will be a time when everything will be all "lovey dovey" between them. Are we sure that Snape is aware that Harry knows he tried to save him SS/PS? I never thought Snape knew. Greicy From martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk Thu Mar 20 16:54:20 2003 From: martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk (Martin Soilleux-Cardwell) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:54:20 -0000 Subject: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53974 "Badger" wrote: > Actually, it still doesn't dispel my most basic question, which comes > back to temporal displacement. Doesn't Harry1 *have* to cast a > successful Patronus in order to be able to return later (as Harry2)? Greetings everyone, my first post (feel free to drag me out and feed me to the giant octopus if this has already been picked apart...) Has anybody considered that the first Patronus may not have been conjured by Harry (or Future Harry if you like). If the Patronus is conjured by Future Harry we have the messy paradox problem. But if the Patronus is conjured by another person there is no paradox. When Time-Turning Harry goes to investigate who conjures the Patronus he disturbs or otherwise prevents the original conjuror from casting the spell, and that person leaves the area or hides (he's now watching Harry). It then falls to Harry to cast a Patronus. The fact that this Patronus takes the same form of the one he saw earlier is, of course, significant. Harry himself thought he had seen his father. Only JKR knows who he really did see, Harry himself analysed the scene over again in his mind later but he cannot *know* who he saw. Regards Martin From dkewpie at pacbell.net Thu Mar 20 17:24:58 2003 From: dkewpie at pacbell.net (Kewpie) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:24:58 -0000 Subject: book covers of OoTP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53975 Hi all, The book covers for OoTP for UK and US version are out. UK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/pictures/galleries/newsid_2868000/28 68883.stm US: http://www.the-leaky- cauldron.org/images/2003/03/HarryPotterPhoenixAmerican.jpg US version is much more interesting while UK ones...*yawn*....how predictable! In the US version, Harry looks much more grown up, and the monotone (Blue) shows the story will be a lot darker than the previous ones. So what do you guys think? Any guesses on what the doors and candles could mean? Joan From grosich at nyc.rr.com Thu Mar 20 17:43:08 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina Rosich) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:43:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] book covers of OoTP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030320174308.53579.qmail@web13104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53976 Kewpie wrote: Hi all, The book covers for OoTP for UK and US version are out. US version is much more interesting while UK ones...*yawn*....how predictable! In the US version, Harry looks much more grown up, and the monotone (Blue) shows the story will be a lot darker than the previous ones. So what do you guys think? Any guesses on what the doors and candles could mean? I like the UK adult cover best, personally. I thought the Leaky Cauldron article said the cover artists were not privvy to the contents of the book. So, I wouldn't read too much into the symbols on the US cover. Harry does look older, though. As he should. After all, he will be 15. Our little wizard is growing up! Gina :-) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 18:31:26 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:31:26 -0000 Subject: book covers of OoTP In-Reply-To: <20030320174308.53579.qmail@web13104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53977 Kewpie wrote: > So what do you guys think? Any guesses on what the doors and > candles could mean? and Gina responded: > I thought the Leaky Cauldron article said the cover artists were > not privvy to the contents of the book. So, I wouldn't read too > much into the symbols on the US cover. now me: My understanding from the information on Leaky is that the UK artists didn't get to read the book before creating the covers (based on a BBC article). It's unclear whether Mary Grand Pre has been able to read the book. In the past, Grand Pre has said that she's drawn her illustrations after reading the book. Whether that's true now isn't clear, though. I liked the UK adult cover as well, although it's disappointing that both of the UK covers don't tell us anything about the plot (since we already *know* that phoenixes are reborn from fire). As for the US cover - is there anywhere in canon that says that Harry is left-handed? Grand Pre has Harry holding his wand in his left hand. The many open doors suggest to me that Harry will have to make some sort of significant choice at some point during the book - and given that he's the only one in the picture, he'll have to make this choice alone. ~Phyllis From dkewpie at pacbell.net Thu Mar 20 18:51:12 2003 From: dkewpie at pacbell.net (Kewpie) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:51:12 -0000 Subject: book covers of OoTP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53978 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > My understanding from the information on Leaky is that the UK artists > didn't get to read the book before creating the covers (based on a > BBC article). It's unclear whether Mary Grand Pre has been able to > read the book. In the past, Grand Pre has said that she's drawn her > illustrations after reading the book. Whether that's true now isn't > clear, though. To me, the illustration suggested she did read the book. Or at least the editor told her the story in order for her to come up with the concept of the art. She also has to draw illustrations for each chapter so she must know what's going in the story in order to draw them doesn't she? > > I liked the UK adult cover as well, although it's disappointing that > both of the UK covers don't tell us anything about the plot (since we > already *know* that phoenixes are reborn from fire). I like the US cover the most. I just don't like the designs for both UK covers (the choice of typeface, the rigid everything-align-center layout, the "Blocks & bars", realistic-looking-yet-not-so-well-drawn phoenix), too boring, predictable, "safe" and a bit "outdated looking" (as in the books look like they're from the 80's or somethng) in my opinion. > As for the US cover - is there anywhere in canon that says that Harry > is left-handed? Grand Pre has Harry holding his wand in his left > hand. The many open doors suggest to me that Harry will have to make > some sort of significant choice at some point during the book - and > given that he's the only one in the picture, he'll have to make this > choice alone. I think the left-handed thing is just a design issue. It looks more dynamic that way than him holding his wand in his right hand (which we won't be seeing it) as well as balance of space. Harry was drawn with the wand in his left hand on the US GoF cover as well (again, a design issue). So it's hardly something signficant. Joan From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 18:52:08 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:52:08 -0000 Subject: HHR Abilities = Super? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53979 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: > ...edited.... > > So does anyone know what super-magical powers Hermione could have? > It'd be funny to see she develops her powers after Ron and Harry > being that she likes to be the first in everything. > > Greicy bboy_mn: Well, super-magical powers might be an overstatement at this point, but substantial and significant magical powers is a certainty. As far as Hermione, I think she does have very substantial magical power. She was the first one to be able to levitate the feather, and did so with ease. That combined with other examples of her using magic indicate it is either substantial and/or extremely well controlled. Knowledge doesn't give you power in this case, any super-intellectual student could accumulate all the knowledge possible, and it wouldn't help them appy it. With out magical power, Hermione's knowledge could never be effectively applied. That fact that she is easily able to apply any knowledge she has, tells me she does indeed have substantial magical power. I think all three of them have substantial (far above average) magical power, but of the three, Ron's is the least developed because he has had the least need to develop it. Hermione develops her's because she is an over achiever, Harry develops his because he has the fond wish to stay alive, Ron on the other hand doesn't have these driving forces behind him. Although, I think when the chips are down, and the demands are there, he will demonstrate his true and substantial magical ability. Just a thought. bboy_mn From manawydan at ntlworld.com Thu Mar 20 18:58:54 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:58:54 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 2615 References: <1048035471.3664.41040.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001801c2ef12$c2fcea80$bb4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 53980 Jeremy wrote: >First we need a rough estimate of the wizard population. I start with >two liberal assumptions: JKR is right about there being 1000 students at >Hogwarts, and that the average wizard lives to about 200 years old. >This leads to the following equation: >1000 students / 7 years = 143 students per year >143 students per year * 200 years = 28,600 wizards The recent UK census figures are that young people in the Hogwarts age groups amount to round about 9% of the population. If there are 1000 students at Hogwarts, then this would imply that there were around 11,000 wizards in the British Isles. That's far too few to sustain the kind of infrastructure that canon describes. Assuming that wizards live twice as long as Muggles, that would give round about 22,000, not too far short of your estimate. But once again, still far too few for the WW infrastructure. >We know there are at least 91 (13 teams * 7 players) people employed to >play professional quidditch, and probably a support staff (coaches, >reserve players, broom boys, ... ) >We can assume that a bunch of people work in publishing, as there are >quite a few books around. >things start to get ridiculous (and those 91 quidditch players seem a >bit excessive, that's the equivalent of there being 1,632,337 >professional soccer (sorry, football) players in Britain + Ireland, or >7,692,307 professional baseball players in the USA (that's about half >the population of California) I live in a city of around 250,000 people. It has a radio station, but the catchment area is far wider, perhaps a million people. It has one evening paper (no morning one) with about the same catchment. And it has two professional sporting teams (one rugby, one soccer). The WW in (what I think of as the British Isles, as it's obviously not a "kingdom") has a daily paper with morning and evening editions, plus a radio station, plus more than one periodical. It also as you rightly say has 13 professional quidditch teams. So the numbers have to be higher. Now us Welsh are probably as keen on rugby as the WW are on quidditch - at least, when we've got something to be keen about :-( but the key issue at the moment is that in a country of 3 million, we can only afford 4 professional teams. One rugby team is two and a half times a quidditch team, which would suggest that the supporter base for the quidditch league described in QTTA would be around 3 million or higher. Frankly I can't see the WW population in the Isles being lower than a million Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From t.forch at mail.dk Thu Mar 20 17:19:01 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:19:01 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030320181159.00cfbe60@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 53981 At 16:54 20-03-03 +0000, Martin wrote: >"Badger" wrote: > >Greetings everyone, my first post (feel free to drag me out and feed >me to the giant octopus if this has already been picked apart...) > >Has anybody considered that the first Patronus may not have been >conjured by Harry (or Future Harry if you like). If the Patronus is >conjured by Future Harry we have the messy paradox problem. You've got that part wrong. If you allow someone else to conjure the Patronus at any point _then_ you introduce a paradox. As long as Harry really sees himself conjure it, then there is no paradox at all. The Time-Turner plotline apparently confuse a lot of people, but it isn't really necessary. Forget about all the complications and view the whole thing as it is written - in subjective time, and tell yourself very firmly that the past is *absolutely inviolate* - under no circumstances can you change the past at all (this is the way time travelling is dealt with in physics - serious!). BTW - first post here as well, so I had better say 'hi' and present my credentials ;-) http://www.hogwarts-library.net/reference and especially http://www.hogwarts-library.net/reference/Harry_Potter_timeline.html Cheers, Troels Forchhammer (Denmark) From doca75 at hotmail.com Thu Mar 20 18:28:37 2003 From: doca75 at hotmail.com (willa_benson) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:28:37 -0000 Subject: book covers of OoTP In-Reply-To: <20030320174308.53579.qmail@web13104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53982 > > > I like the UK adult cover best, personally. I thought the Leaky Cauldron article said the cover artists were not privvy to the contents of the book. So, I wouldn't read too much into the symbols on the US cover. Harry does look older, though. As he should. After all, he will be 15. Our little wizard is growing up! > > > > Gina :-) > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] The article said that the UK artist, Jason Cockcroft, wasn't allowed to read the books. It didn't say anything about the American illustrator, Mary GrandPre, not reading the book. There just may be some truth to the American version cover art, but what that is is anyones quess. Willa :) From nova_glitterfreak at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 18:47:42 2003 From: nova_glitterfreak at yahoo.com (nova_glitterfreak) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:47:42 -0000 Subject: book covers of OoTP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53983 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > As for the US cover - is there anywhere in canon that says that Harry > is left-handed? Grand Pre has Harry holding his wand in his left > hand. The many open doors suggest to me that Harry will have to make > some sort of significant choice at some point during the book - and > given that he's the only one in the picture, he'll have to make this > choice alone. > > ~Phyllis I hate to try and answer this question when I don't have the book with me, but I'm 98% certain that Harry is right-handed, based on his experience with buying his first wand at Ollivander's. But why then would he be holding the wand in his left hand? perhaps it is a mirror image? Might we be seeing the Mirror of Erised again? Has he broken his wand arm? I guess we'll know in about 92 days... "Nova" From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu Mar 20 19:49:55 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:49:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: book covers of OoTP Message-ID: <4172198.1048189795134.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53984 Phyllis wrote: > As for the US cover - is there anywhere in canon that says that Harry
> is left-handed? Grand Pre has Harry holding his wand in his left
> hand It's in canon that Harry is right handed. In Olivander's selecting his wand, Olivander asks which is his wand arm, Harry says, well, he's right handed. Now, it could be a simple matter of what looked best. Which is a mistake, because we're all too observant to just overlook it! OR it could be a mirror image on the cover. Which would explain why everything's blue tinted. Whether it's a return to the mirror of Erised (which could be, considering it's not been seen since SS/PS) or some other mirror, I'm not sure. If that's what Harry's seeing in the mirror of Erised, it wouldn't make sense. Candles and doors/windows? Unless he's in a very dark place and all he wants is light and a way out! Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com Thu Mar 20 20:14:50 2003 From: mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com (Edward Post) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:14:50 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53985 Troels Forchhammer wrote: S N I P > >The Time-Turner plotline apparently confuse a lot of people, but it >isn't > >really necessary. Forget about all the complications and view >the whole >thing as it is written - in subjective time, and tell >yourself very firmly >that the past is *absolutely inviolate* - under >no circumstances can you >change the past at all (this is the way time >travelling is dealt with in >physics - serious!). > > >BTW - first post here as well, so I had better say 'hi' and present my >credentials ;-) >http://www.hogwarts-library.net/reference and especially >http://www.hogwarts-library.net/reference/Harry_Potter_timeline.html > >Cheers, >Troels Forchhammer >(Denmark) First -- and most important -- Hi! I've seen others say that. If that's the case, however, what was accomplished by using the Time Turner? _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From purple_801999 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 20:28:14 2003 From: purple_801999 at yahoo.com (purple_801999) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 20:28:14 -0000 Subject: OotP Covers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53986 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ickle_ronniekins" wrote: > Okay, it's been a looong time since I last posted here, but since no > one brought this up yet... > > Have you seen the OotP Covers? Check them out at > the-leaky-cauldron.org. > > Though I don't think we can deduce much plot from these covers. > > -Ron For some reason I had an odd suspicion that the cover's color theme would be blue. I don't know why, but I did. And boy was I right! Not that the color of the cover has anything to do with the plot, per se. GoF was green and that color wasn't especially pivotal to the plot. But does anyone think Harry looks thinner than ever? Poor kid's probably going to be scrawny his whole life, no matter how many banquets they have at Hogwarts. He does look noticable older. I wonder what the final seventeen year old version of Harry will look like. Love the color though. Ms. Grand Pre hasn't let me down yet. Olivia Grey From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 20:33:44 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 20:33:44 -0000 Subject: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53987 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Martin Soilleux-Cardwell" wrote: > "Badger" wrote: > > Actually, it still doesn't dispel my most basic question, which > > comes back to temporal displacement. Doesn't Harry1 *have* to > > cast a successful Patronus in order to be able to return later (as > > Harry2)? > > ...edited... > > Has anybody considered that the first Patronus may not have been > conjured by Harry ... > > Harry himself thought he had seen his father. > > Regards > Martin bboy_mn: I come back to my own personal theory on time travel analysis; time only moves forward. The only way to keep yourself from going crazy trying to resolve time paradoxes is to start in the past and move forward through time as you document the history of the events. Starting back in time- Harry/Ron/Hermione hide in the entrance hall until it is clear and they can go down to Hagrid's. Time move forward slightly- It is a historical fact that Harry2/Hermione2 join the time line shortly after H1/R1/H1 go down to Hagrid's. Time move forward- H1/R1/H1 do their thing while H2/H2 hide and wait. Time move forward- The Dementors are closing in around Harry1/Hermione1, a Petronus is cast from the far side of the lake and it saves H1/H1. History will tell us at a later time that the Petronus was cast by Harry2. Time moves forward- Harry1/Hermione1 are in the hospital room and Dumbledore has them travel back in time. Time moves forward slighty- Harry2/Hermione2 approach Dumbledore outside the hospital door just as he is about to lock it. When H1/H1 have disappeared, H2/H2 enter the hospital ward and this series of time travel events are resolved. Did Harry2 have to conjure the Petronus? Let me ask, did Washington HAVE to cross the Delaware? Did Nepoleon HAVE to go to Waterloo? Did Custer HAVE to go to the Little Big Horn? No they didn't HAVE to, but they did. Those are historical facts, and equally so, it is a (fictional) historical fact that Harry2 cast the Petronus. He was there to do it because 3 hours ago, he covertly joined the time line and waited until the moment that the Petronus was cast, then realized he was the one who cast it, and so he did. He did so, not to fulfill some pre-ordained destiny, but to live out what he knew to be documented history. He could have hesitated, he COULD have not done it, but why would he do that? Once he realized it was he, Harry2, who cast that charm, why would he not do so again? The alternative would have been to let himself die (or be kissed). So naturally and logically, he cast the charm and saved himself. Ignoring fate and destiny, and viewing it from the point of an intellectual choice, how could he and why would he choose not to do it? Time paradoxes only drive you craze if you start in the future and go back in time. The only sanity saving way to analyse it, is to start in the past and document time as it unfolds then accept history as history. Just my opinion. bboy_mn From pbarhug at earthlink.net Thu Mar 20 20:40:43 2003 From: pbarhug at earthlink.net (Pam Hugonnet) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:40:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: book covers of OoTP References: Message-ID: <3E7A274B.7070601@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 53988 erisedstraeh2002 wrote: > My understanding from the information on Leaky is that the UK artists > didn't get to read the book before creating the covers (based on a > BBC article). It's unclear whether Mary Grand Pre has been able to > read the book. In the past, Grand Pre has said that she's drawn her > illustrations after reading the book. Whether that's true now isn't > clear, though. Popping up from a deep dark lurk to say: A while back (mid-February?), the Washington Post's KidsPost section had an article about Mary GrandPre and her cover illustrations for the HP series. I looked for the link at the Post's website but they don't seem to have it archived (or I just can't find it). IIRC, she said that she always reads the books *before* doing the cover art and OoP was no exception. She also said she tries to put in clues about the story. There are also some fascinating statements about her use of color to convey mood and information (like the mysterious green cover of GoF). Judging from that, I think OoP will be a very intense and spooky book. I find the doors fascinating; none of them look inviting. The room Harry is in appears to be round (Dumbledore's office/residence tower?). Harry certainly doesn't seem to be the wide eyed innocent of previous books. Anybody in the Washington DC area still have that article or the link? I'll check my daughter's hoard; she saves everything HP. If I find it, I'll post it here. drpam From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 20:49:00 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 20:49:00 -0000 Subject: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53989 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Edward Post" wrote: > > Troels Forchhammer wrote: > > S N I P > > > > > ... tell yourself very firmly that the past is *absolutely > inviolate* - under no circumstances can you change the past at > all (this is the way time travelling is dealt with in > >physics - serious!). > > > > > >Cheers, > >Troels Forchhammer > >(Denmark) > > > First -- and most important -- Hi! > > I've seen others say that. If that's the case, however, what was > accomplished by using the Time Turner? > > Edward Post bboy_mn: Question: What was accomplished by using the Time Turner? Answer: History. As Troels said, you can change the past, but you can create it. Just because you can't RE-write history, doesn't mean you can WRITE it; doesn't mean you can't create it. See this post for an expansion of my views. #53987 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/53987 Just a thought. bboy_mn From maryblue67 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 20:58:23 2003 From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (maryblue67) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 20:58:23 -0000 Subject: Another possible inconsistency Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53990 I was just listening to the Goblet of Fire and someting seemed to me as another inconsistency. I haven't heard this before so i'll go ahead and post it. When Moody takes Harry at the end of the third task, Dumbledore immedately knows that he is not the real Moody. And he tells Harry he is not the real Moody and shows him the flask with polyjuice potion. So, at this point, he knows that he is an impostor, but still there is no clue as to who is the impostor. Then he sends Snape for the Veritaserum and MacGonagall to the kitchens to find Winky and bring her. Only later the effects of the polyjuice potion start to fade off and they recognize the impostor as Crouch Jr. so, how does Dumbledore that they are going to need Winky? How does he know that the impostor was Crouch Jr.? I understand the logic behing him knowing that Moody was an impostor, but not why he knows who the impostor was. Am i missing something? Maria From tahewitt at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 21:01:03 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:01:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: book covers of OoTP In-Reply-To: <1048191301.10493.85270.m4@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030320210103.50245.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53991 I like the American book cover the best of the three, but upon seeing it I immediately started wondering what was on the back cover. The back covers of the first four books have continuations of the front cover art, so I assume the same is true of the OoP cover. I'm also wondering about the candles. The candles near the bottom right corner of the cover are kind of ghostly, translucent looking. At first I thought they wee somehow on or part of Harry's robes. Notice also how the flame and smoke of all the candles are sweeping towards the left. It looks like a breeze is blowing them from the right, or maybe the movement of Harry's arm is causing it. Harry is looking back behind his shoulder, in the direction the breeze would be coming from, almost as if he is startled by something behind him. This and the blue color scheme remind me of ghosts. There's definately a spooky feeling to this image for me. Makes me wonder if ghosts will play a larger part on OoP. The blue color is nice, but a bit jarring when viewed next to the other four books, wich are largely done in red, orange and green. Might look a bit out of place on the shelf next to the others. Tyler __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From deadstop at wombatzone.com Thu Mar 20 21:06:55 2003 From: deadstop at wombatzone.com (Stacy Forsythe) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:06:55 -0500 Subject: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? In-Reply-To: <1048191301.10493.85270.m4@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.20030320155001.00a709b0@mail.wombatzone.com> No: HPFGUIDX 53992 At 08:15 PM 3/20/03 +0000, Edward Post wrote: >I've seen others say that. If that's the case, however, what was >accomplished by using the Time Turner? Saving Sirius and Buckbeak from execution, and Harry and those with him from the mass dementor attack. These things would not have happened without the use of the Time Turner. However, that doesn't mean there was a "first time through" where no Time Turner was used and things happened differently. We know (from the throwaway reference to a door closing and feet hurrying away) that the second Harry and Hermione (from three hours ahead) were there and going about their mission while the "first" Harry and Hermione were living through those three hours; it's just that the latter pair didn't know about the former pair until they, well, became them. Thus, there is no need to find someone else to cast the Patronus, because Harry2 is already available. Essentially, the Time Turner didn't give the kids the power to change the past; it gave them the power to *be in two places at once*, starting three hours before. It's the same thing Hermione was using it for in her classes. Even though, from her point of view, she went to one class and then turned back an hour to attend the simultaneous class (living two hours in the space of one), everyone else would have seen two Hermiones going to two different classes. There exists no point, from the outside POV, at which Hermione is in the first class but hasn't "yet" gone to the second one. As far as everyone else is concerned, she attends both at the same time. The same thing happened with the two Harry-and-Hermione pairs that night after the Shrieking Shack incident. There was never a time (during those three hours) when there wasn't a second Harry running around; thus there is no need to find anyone else to cast the Patronus. I'll admit, the Harry/Patronus example is more troubling to me than the others because Harry actually escapes death by the intervention of a future Harry who has already done so. But it still works out if you remember that there's no need to imagine the three hours running "twice." It's the same three hours, but Harry and Hermione *live through it* twice, producing two simultaneous copies of themselves that are doing different things. One Harry is being nearly Kissed by a Dementor; the other is across the lake, casting a Patronus to save the first one. Stacy Forsythe deadstop at wombatzone.com From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 21:13:56 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:13:56 -0000 Subject: Washington Post Mary Grand Pre Article Link (WAS: book covers of OoTP) In-Reply-To: <3E7A274B.7070601@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53993 drpam (Pam Hugonnet) wrote: > A while back (mid-February?), the Washington Post's KidsPost > section had an article about Mary GrandPre and her cover > illustrations for the HP series. Anybody in the Washington > DC area still have that article or the link? Now me: I'm not in the D.C. area anymore (although I was born there), but here's the link (I remembered seeing the article on the Leaky Cauldron website and I pulled it out of the archives): http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn? pagename=article&node=&contentId=A55912-2003Feb23¬Found=true (The address is too long to fit all across, so you'll probably have to cut and paste it into your browser.) The article doesn't conclusively say whether she read OoP before completing the jacket, but it's quite interesting. ~Phyllis From carrie525 at mybluelight.com Thu Mar 20 21:38:14 2003 From: carrie525 at mybluelight.com (Carrie S) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:38:14 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] book covers of OoTP References: Message-ID: <002f01c2ef29$06223d40$4a1e5142@net> No: HPFGUIDX 53994 I think where Harry is on the U.S cover shows the "room". The magical room that JKR spot about before. This looks like a Hall though...just my first thinking.....thanks for posting this ! Carrie ----- Original Message ----- From: Kewpie To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 9:24 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] book covers of OoTP Hi all, The book covers for OoTP for UK and US version are out. UK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/pictures/galleries/newsid_2868000/28 68883.stm US: http://www.the-leaky- cauldron.org/images/2003/03/HarryPotterPhoenixAmerican.jpg US version is much more interesting while UK ones...*yawn*....how predictable! In the US version, Harry looks much more grown up, and the monotone (Blue) shows the story will be a lot darker than the previous ones. So what do you guys think? Any guesses on what the doors and candles could mean? Joan Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mrsbonsai at charter.net Thu Mar 20 21:24:37 2003 From: mrsbonsai at charter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:24:37 -0000 Subject: book covers of OoTP In-Reply-To: <20030320210103.50245.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53995 There seem to be candles even beyond the doors. But to me it looks as though the room is actually spinning, and therefore the breeze? Also, is there something reflected in Harry's glasses? Is there a way to magnify the image to find this out? I also wanted to say, that I see possibilities for Harry using the left hand: 1. he's looking back into a mirror. (would also explain why it looks like something is in the glasses (him + candles?) 2. He's using his left hand because it is in some odd way connected to the injuries he's received to his left arm, and the blood being taken from his left arm (isn't this the arm that regrew the bones?) 3. If he is looking into a mirror, could it be that the mirror would show some truth about what he is looking at, rather than a confusing image shrouded by deep magic? I'm reminded of Dumbledore's talking about the chamber pot room. If this is in Dumbledore's tower, perhaps it's connected to this previous bit of information from GOF? One last thing, do we see something on the ceiling in that view? I hope I have my facts straight as I don't have my books in front of me. Julie From devika at sas.upenn.edu Thu Mar 20 21:29:28 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:29:28 -0000 Subject: OotP Covers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53996 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "purple_801999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ickle_ronniekins" > wrote: > > Okay, it's been a looong time since I last posted here, but since > no > > one brought this up yet... > > > > Have you seen the OotP Covers? Check them out at > > the-leaky-cauldron.org. > > > > Though I don't think we can deduce much plot from these covers. > > > > -Ron > > For some reason I had an odd suspicion that the cover's color theme > would be blue. I don't know why, but I did. And boy was I right! Not > that the color of the cover has anything to do with the plot, per se. > GoF was green and that color wasn't especially pivotal to the plot. > > But does anyone think Harry looks thinner than ever? Poor kid's > probably going to be scrawny his whole life, no matter how many > banquets they have at Hogwarts. He does look noticable older. I > wonder what the final seventeen year old version of Harry will look > like. > > Love the color though. Ms. Grand Pre hasn't let me down yet. It's funny, somehow I also just *knew* that this book cover would be blue. I'm not sure why exactly, but I've been telling my sister for months now that OoP would have a blue cover. I love this cover, although it doesn't have as much detail as the others. What I want to know, though, is what Harry is looking at. That's an interesting expression he has on his face. Harry looks so much older! I know that he's 15 now, but I wasn't expecting such a change. Wow. Actually, I just realized that Harry looks more like the way I picture James when he was in school. After seeing this cover, I finally realized why I've been feeling a little anxious about OoP. I'm not worried that OoP will be a "dud," as we were discussing a while back. However, I worry that somehow Harry will have changed and grown so much that I won't recognize him. Does that make any sense? It's silly because even though it's been almost 3 years since the last book came out, only a few weeks will have gone by in the HP world. Still, though, I think that I've gotten used to seeing Harry as a child, and the OoP cover really drove home the point that he's quickly growing up. I suppose that's hardly a surprise after what happened to him in GoF. Anyway, enough rambling. The next three months had better fly by :) Devika From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 21:44:07 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:44:07 -0000 Subject: Another possible inconsistency *plus* Why Summon Winky? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53997 Maria (maryblue67) wrote: > When Moody takes Harry at the end of the third task, Dumbledore > immediately knows that he is not the real Moody. How does he > know that the impostor was Crouch Jr.? Now me: This is a really excellent question, and one which I had not thought of before. You are absolutely correct - Dumbledore expresses no surprise when Fake!Moody turns into Crouch Jr. after the polyjuice potion wears off, and his summoning of Winky and the veritaserum indicate that he knew who the impostor was while he was still in disguise. So, how would Dumbledore know? Let's go back to when Harry witnesses Crouch Jr.'s trial through Dumbledore's Pensieve. Dumbledore tells Harry "...some trials come back to me more clearly than others...particularly now..." (GoF, Ch. 30). This suggests to me that the memories Harry witnessed were the memories Dumbledore was reviewing right before Harry discovered the Pensieve. If this is correct, it would suggest that there was something about Crouch Jr.'s trial that Dumbledore wanted to review, probably triggered by what Harry told Dumbledore he heard Crouch Sr. say in the forest (Ch. 28 GoF: "I've done...stupid..thing"; "all my fault...my son...my fault"). So it's possible (probable?) that Dumbledore had figured out that Crouch Sr. had helped his son escape from Azkaban, and that Crouch Jr. was somewhere at Hogwarts. But Dumbledore wasn't able to fit the pieces together until Fake!Moody disobeyed Dumbledore's instructions by taking Harry away after Harry returned from the graveyard. So now I have a question - why did Dumbledore summon Winky to witness Crouch Jr.'s confession? All Winky did was cry. She wasn't asked to confirm or deny any of what Crouch Jr. said (it would have been unnecessary, anyway, since the veritaserum forced him to tell the truth). She knew the whole story already, so it can't be that she needed to hear the truth. So what was the point of having Winky there? I just don't get it. ~Phyllis From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 22:08:39 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 22:08:39 -0000 Subject: book covers of OoTP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53998 Julie wrote: > There seem to be candles even beyond the doors. Now me: The candles in the back (near the doors) look to me like the reflection one might see in a mirror. Julie again: > But to me it looks as though the room is actually spinning, and > therefore the breeze? Me again: That looks more to me like the swoosh of Harry bringing his wand up (look at how there is a sweep that follows what one could perceive as his rising hand motion) - but perhaps that swoosh is creating the breeze that's rippling the candle flames? Julie again: > Also, is there something reflected in Harry's glasses? Is there a > way to magnify the image to find this out? Me again: I see sparkly stuff in his hair and on his glasses, but I'm at a loss to explain it (but it's very pretty!). Julie again: > He's using his left hand because it is in some odd way connected > to the injuries he's received to his left arm, and the blood being > taken from his left arm (isn't this the arm that regrew the bones?) Me again: Actually, in an effort to determine whether Harry is left-handed, I just re-read the section of CoS where Dobby's bludger broke his arm and Lockhart de-boned it, and it's very interesting - there's absolutely no mention of which arm it was (the references are always to "arm" without mentioning whether it was the right or left arm). Also, FYI, the blood Wormtail took from Harry for Voldemort's regeneration potion was from Harry's *right* arm. Some other things I noticed - the expression on Harry's face looks intent and determined, rather than fearful or angry. I'm also not convinced that the room is circular - it could just be the perspective the artist is showing us. ~Phyllis From heidit at netbox.com Thu Mar 20 22:10:27 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidi tandy) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:10:27 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: book covers of OoTP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 53999 Stay tuned to tlc later today. I just got a comment from Mary GrandPre's agent and will be posting it later tonight. Heidi Tandy Sponsorship Chaser Nimbus-2003 Http://www.hp2003.org -----Original Message----- From: "erisedstraeh2002" Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:31:26 To:HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: book covers of OoTP Real-To: "erisedstraeh2002" Kewpie wrote: > So what do you guys think? Any guesses on what the doors and > candles could mean? and Gina responded: > I thought the Leaky Cauldron article said the cover artists were > not privvy to the contents of the book. So, I wouldn't read too > much into the symbols on the US cover. now me: My understanding from the information on Leaky is that the UK artists didn't get to read the book before creating the covers (based on a BBC article). It's unclear whether Mary Grand Pre has been able to read the book. In the past, Grand Pre has said that she's drawn her illustrations after reading the book. Whether that's true now isn't clear, though. I liked the UK adult cover as well, although it's disappointing that both of the UK covers don't tell us anything about the plot (since we already *know* that phoenixes are reborn from fire). As for the US cover - is there anywhere in canon that says that Harry is left-handed? Grand Pre has Harry holding his wand in his left hand. The many open doors suggest to me that Harry will have to make some sort of significant choice at some point during the book - and given that he's the only one in the picture, he'll have to make this choice alone. ~Phyllis ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From Audra1976 at aol.com Thu Mar 20 22:22:48 2003 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:22:48 EST Subject: Snape saving Harry (was: Re: An odd musing about Harry's attitude - ) Message-ID: <17.376720f6.2bab9938@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54000 Finwitch wrote: << And besides, I find it questionable whether Snape *did* save Harry's life in the first place. Hermione broke both Quirrell's and Snape's eye-contact with the fire-spell, thus putting an END to the jinxes. If anyone saved Harry's life, it was Hermione far more than Snape with his uneffective counter-jinxes. >> eloise_herisson wrote: <> Now me: Who dares call my Severus uneffective?? Or ineffective even?? ;) LOL. I must agree with Eloise and take up for Snape here. He could have just sat by and let Harry fend for himself, but he actively saved him from falling with the countercurse. Quirrel might have even been channeling You-Know-Who's power and Snape was still matching him countercurse for curse! Sure Quirrel claimed later that he would have won the battle against Snape if he had a few more seconds, but how reliable is Quirrel's word? Bottom line is Quirrelmort wanted Harry dead, and Snape was actively trying to stop him, therefore he was trying to save Harry's life. The fact that Hermione inadvertently broke both their eye contact only means we don't know who would have won out at the end. But either way, Snape was *not* ineffective. -Audra- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no Thu Mar 20 22:35:57 2003 From: trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no (Trond Michelsen) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 23:35:57 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] book covers of OoTP In-Reply-To: ; from dkewpie@pacbell.net on Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 05:24:58PM -0000 References: Message-ID: <20030320233557.D32124@crusaders.no> No: HPFGUIDX 54001 On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 05:24:58PM -0000, Kewpie wrote: > US version is much more interesting while UK ones...*yawn*....how > predictable! In the US version, Harry looks much more grown up, and > the monotone (Blue) shows the story will be a lot darker than the > previous ones. I'm impressed that the adult edition cover for once isn't butt-ugly. > So what do you guys think? Any guesses on what the doors and candles > could mean? I think it almost looks like a scene from a ghost movie. -- // Trond Michelsen \X/ mike at crusaders.no From iluvgahan at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 21:06:59 2003 From: iluvgahan at yahoo.com (iluvgahan) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:06:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Snape wants acknowledgement for saving Harry ... Message-ID: <20030320210659.11605.qmail@web13509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54002 Gina wrote: >>>>I dont think Snape wants a thank you from Harry specifically. He is a work-behind-the-scenes kind of guy. He is not interested in ostentatious displays. He would absolutely find that embarrassing.<<<< and Andry wrote: >>>>>> A direct thank you would be almost insulting. > Honestly, though, and I'm not trying to be dense here, but >I don't really see any other way Harry could thank him. He >could try being more polite, I suppose, but that might only >annoy Snape more . now me: It's a small point, but I disagree that Snape doesn't want some sort of acknowledgement from Harry for saving Harry's life. My first reason is that in PoA when Snape confronts Sirius and Lupin in the Shrieking Shack, Harry gets in the way and Snape said something to the effect of 'you should be down on bended knee thanking me' (not exact quote, but i think it's close enough that you all know what I mean). My second reason for thinking Snape wants some reward is when Sirius escaped it made him furious, and when he lost his Order of Merlin (he and Fudge were talking about that in the corridor), I think it made him even madder.. Small point, but I love this message board and just want to hear what you guys think... ===== Christina "I solemnly swear that I am up to no good." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From eschaafin at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 21:08:20 2003 From: eschaafin at yahoo.com (Sophie) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:08:20 -0000 Subject: book covers of OoTP In-Reply-To: <4172198.1048189795134.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54003 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rvotaw at i... wrote: > > Phyllis wrote: > > > As for the US cover - is there anywhere in canon that says that Harry
> > is left-handed? Grand Pre has Harry holding his wand in his left
> > hand > > It's in canon that Harry is right handed. In Olivander's selecting his wand, > Olivander asks which is his wand arm, Harry says, well, he's right handed. Looking at the other US cover, Harry is holding the wand in his left hand also on GoF, and catching the Snitch with his lefthand in SS. The chapter illistrations also show him favoring his left hand, while most other people are shown using their right hand. It all seems too deliberate to me. Sophie From martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk Thu Mar 20 22:55:54 2003 From: martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk (Martin Soilleux-Cardwell) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 22:55:54 -0000 Subject: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.20030320155001.00a709b0@mail.wombatzone.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54004 Stacy Forsythe wrote: [fairly large snip of first bit of excellent post which has helped me understand the time-turner a lot...] > I'll admit, the Harry/Patronus example is more troubling to me than the > others because Harry actually escapes death by the intervention of a future > Harry who has already done so. But it still works out if you remember that > there's no need to imagine the three hours running "twice." It's the same > three hours, but Harry and Hermione *live through it* twice, producing two > simultaneous copies of themselves that are doing different things. One > Harry is being nearly Kissed by a Dementor; the other is across the lake, > casting a Patronus to save the first one. Stacy, I am happy with *most* of what you write. But it is the closing assumption that bothers me. I understand the way science views time paradoxes, but since this is Muggle science and the Wizard world can produce stuff so odd from our viewpoint(1) I have no problem at all in allowing a time paradox (if there is one, and having read your post I'm not sure there is any more!) or if what occured that night isn't a time paradox because it occurred in the Wizard world. However, I would like to go back to my initial point, if I may. There is only one person who knows who cast the first Patronus, and that is JKR. Harry *thinks* it was himself because no other information that he has fits the events, and the only alternative (which I think he was 'hoping' for initially as he made his way around the lake) was that his father had cast it. I agree that Harry1 saw a Patronus as the Dementors closed in and agree that Harry2 was in fact on the other side of the lake at the time. But if you consider that another person *did* cast Patronus1, and for reasons of his own did not want Harry2 to discover him, and hid/fled, then Harry2 more or less has to come to the conclusion that Harry1 saw Harry2 cast Patronus1 and so Harry2 then in fact casts it. Am I making sense? I think readers assume Harry2 cast Patronus1 because Harry2 assumes it. But the possibility exists, and the facts we are given in the book don't contradict that possibility, that it *was* someone else that Harry1 saw cast Patronus1. Personally I am quite happy for Harry2 to have cast it, but when I read that chapter first time around I have to admit there was a lump in my throat and a faint hope that Harry might encounter his dead father. My own father died many years ago and the wish to get the chance to see him again is always present. JKR has mentioned in interviews that only some dead wizards come back as ghosts and why this is will be revealed in a later book. So I am keeping an open mind that it may just have been James by the lake after all... (1) Newton's and Einstein's laws do not always apply when you are a Wizard. "Martin" From t.forch at mail.dk Thu Mar 20 21:05:32 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 22:05:32 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030320220106.00c69380@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54005 At 15:14 20-03-03 -0500, you wrote: >Troels Forchhammer wrote: > >that the past is *absolutely inviolate* - under >no circumstances can you > >change the past at all (this is the way time >travelling is dealt with in > >physics - serious!). > > >First -- and most important -- Hi! > >I've seen others say that. If that's the case, however, what was >accomplished by using the Time Turner? You might say that they had to go back in time to ensure that the past happened correctly - the way they had experienced it before. Troels From jizzkitty420 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 18:29:15 2003 From: jizzkitty420 at yahoo.com (Giselle Sicle) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:29:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] book covers of OoTP In-Reply-To: <20030320174308.53579.qmail@web13104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030320182915.91669.qmail@web13114.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54006 Gina Rosich wrote: Kewpie wrote: Hi all, The book covers for OoTP for UK and US version are out. US version is much more interesting while UK ones...*yawn*....how predictable! In the US version, Harry looks much more grown up, and the monotone (Blue) shows the story will be a lot darker than the previous ones. So what do you guys think? Any guesses on what the doors and candles could mean? Giselle: Perhaps the doors are part of the room with "undiscovered magical powers" we all have been talking about. I don't have the books on me but does anyone recall a mention of a room with several doors? Nothing comes to mind at the moment. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54007 >From: "Maria Gromova" > > You know, I have a distinct impression Godric Gryffindor was from > Shropshire. There is a place called Godric's Ford in Ellis Peters' > historical mystery novels. Maybe she made this name up, but Shropshire is > also a moorland county, and the Sorting Hat's song says Gryffindor was 'from > wild moor'. Sounds like Shropshire to me. Maybe this is where his home > (Godric's Hollow) was. > Maria. > Maria, Since I am not very familiar with the geography of the UK, how does this location fit in with Hagrid's flight the night Harry's parents were killed. I know that there is much controversy over the missing time from when Harry was rescued till he was dropped off at the Dursley's. Tammy From mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com Thu Mar 20 23:45:34 2003 From: mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com (Edward Post) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:45:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54008 Somebody calling himself Mr. Ed should not beat horses -- even dead ones. Nevertheless... I think PoA is a great book -- and just as I suspend my understanding of the muggle world's natural laws with these novels, generally, I do likewise for the time travel sequence. But peoples' explanations sometimes confuse me. > >Troels Forchhammer wrote: > > >that the past is *absolutely inviolate* - under >no circumstances can >you > > >change the past at all (this is the way time >travelling is dealt with >in > > >physics - serious!). > > > > To which Mr. Ed responded and asked: > > > >I've seen others say that. If that's the case, however, what was > >accomplished by using the Time Turner? And then Troels kindly answered: >You might say that they had to go back in time to ensure that the >past happened correctly - the way they had experienced it before. > >Troels > But to keep the statements consistent, don't we have to accept that if something went 'wrong' it cannot be changed. In this particular incident, Dumbledore says to Harry and Hermione that MORE time is needed to rescue Sirius and Buckbeak. As soon as he uses a relative term, didn't Dumbledore indicate the goal was to make something change? _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From artsylynda at aol.com Thu Mar 20 23:46:25 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:46:25 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP covers Message-ID: <186.170798e8.2babacd1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54009 In a message dated 3/20/2003 3:16:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > Okay, it's been a looong time since I last posted here, but since no > one brought this up yet... > > Have you seen the OotP Covers? Check them out at > the-leaky-cauldron.org. > > Though I don't think we can deduce much plot from these covers. > > -Ron > > Interesting that the UK versions have a phoenix and no picture of Harry or other characters, and the US version has a very much more grown-up looking Harry (who looks a lot like Dan in this picture -- ooops, sorry, wrong list!) A circlular room (Dumbledoor's office?) floating candles (the Great Hall??) -- looks like something's happening at Hogwart's itself, this time???? Interesting! Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From artsylynda at aol.com Thu Mar 20 23:55:55 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:55:55 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP Book covers Message-ID: <6b.cf4f289.2babaf0b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54010 Joan: > US version is much more interesting while UK ones...*yawn*....how > predictable! In the US version, Harry looks much more grown up, and > the monotone (Blue) shows the story will be a lot darker than the > previous ones. > > So what do you guys think? Any guesses on what the doors and candles > could mean? > This Harry looks a lot like Dan! Even to the shape of the eyebrows. I wonder if the artist was influenced by Dan's appearance? What surprises me is that nobody else is on either cover -- it's either just Harry or just the phoenix. The circular room could be Dumbledoor's office, maybe?? I dunno about all the doors, though. And the candles, to me, say something big is happening at Hogwart's. Maybe Lord V. figured out how to get past the protections around Hogwart's, who knows? Can't wait for that book to arrive! The phoenix book covers are interesting but I much prefer the US one -- I'm glad that's the version I'm getting! YAY! Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From artsylynda at aol.com Thu Mar 20 23:58:01 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:58:01 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP covers Message-ID: <71.2ec2bbc7.2babaf89@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54011 Phyllis: > As for the US cover - is there anywhere in canon that says that Harry > is left-handed? Canon says he's right-handed (in Olivander's Wand Shop, Mr. Olivander asks which is his wand hand, and Harry replies something like, "Er, well, I'm right-handed.") Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gandharvika at hotmail.com Fri Mar 21 00:00:19 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 00:00:19 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Mad-Eye Moody Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54012 ...can't...stop...must...filk...Beatle song... Mad-Eye Moody (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Mr. Moonlight_ by the Beatles) Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle06.html Ron: Mad-Eye Moody You came inside that stormy night Holding your staff, the lightning flashed Your face was scarred, your eye, bizarre And for a leg you wore a peg Heard of you before, I stand in awe 'Cause you are cool Mad-Eye Moody Mad-Eye Moody, please tell us more I want to hear all your tales as an Auror And Fred, George and Lee All three of them agreed Called you "Super Cool" Mad-Eye Moody With constant vigilance you're prepared You know what it's like to be "out there" You are too cool Mad-Eye Moody Mad-Eye Moody, I won't forget You changed Draco that git into a ferret And bounced him up and down the hall 'Till stopped by McGonagall I think you're cool Mad-Eye Moody Mad-Eye Moody Mad-Eye Moody Mad-Eye Moody -Gail B...here I am on my nose, begging if you please... _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From sam2sar at charter.net Fri Mar 21 01:01:33 2003 From: sam2sar at charter.net (sam2sar) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 01:01:33 -0000 Subject: OoP Book covers In-Reply-To: <6b.cf4f289.2babaf0b@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54013 Guess what my new wallpaper is??? The covers have gotten me all pumped up again just when I was finally starting to have a life again. I will be getting my US version at 12:01 June 21rst( which is by far my favorite cover). A few days to weeks later my UK version (childrens cover) will arrive in my mail box. I will have read my US copy 10 times by then. My first thought was that the room pictured on the cover was the favorite room at Hogwarts but now I think it is the new place Harry is going to see in the OoP. Sam I Am --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, artsylynda at a... wrote: > Joan: > > > US version is much more interesting while UK ones...*yawn*....how > > predictable! In the US version, Harry looks much more grown up, and > > the monotone (Blue) shows the story will be a lot darker than the > > previous ones. > > > > So what do you guys think? Any guesses on what the doors and candles > > could mean? > > > This Harry looks a lot like Dan! Even to the shape of the eyebrows. I > wonder if the artist was influenced by Dan's appearance? What surprises me > is that nobody else is on either cover -- it's either just Harry or just the > phoenix. The circular room could be Dumbledoor's office, maybe?? I dunno > about all the doors, though. And the candles, to me, say something big is > happening at Hogwart's. Maybe Lord V. figured out how to get past the > protections around Hogwart's, who knows? Can't wait for that book to arrive! > The phoenix book covers are interesting but I much prefer the US one -- I'm > glad that's the version I'm getting! YAY! > > Lynda > * * * > "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Mar 21 01:18:58 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:18:58 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Bludger broke the right arm (was Re: book covers of OoTP) References: Message-ID: <007201c2ef47$da7655e0$c19fcdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 54014 Phyllis writes: > Actually, in an effort to determine whether Harry is left-handed, I > just re-read the section of CoS where Dobby's bludger broke his arm > and Lockhart de-boned it, and it's very interesting - there's > absolutely no mention of which arm it was (the references are always > to "arm" without mentioning whether it was the right or left arm). > Also, FYI, the blood Wormtail took from Harry for Voldemort's > regeneration potion was from Harry's *right* arm. Actually, my paperback Scholastic edition of CoS says (Ch 10 page 171): "Dimly, dazed by the searing pain in his arm, he slid sideways on his rain-drenched broom, one knee still crooked over it, his right arm dangling uselessly at his side . . . " It does specify the right arm. Which I've always found interesting, that everything happens to his right arm. Naturally, by him being right handed that is part of it. I also wonder if it isn't entirely coincidental that the arm broken/deboned/regrown was the same one Wormtail used to take the blood from. Whatever that may or may not mean, who knows. But it was the right arm broken. (At least in the US edition!) Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Mar 21 01:21:13 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 01:21:13 -0000 Subject: With Sheer Monstrosity (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54015 With Sheer Monstrosity (GoF, Chap. 27) To the tune of The Bare Necessities from Disney's The Jungle Book Hear a MIDI at: http://www.dismusic.com/allmidi2.htm Dedicated to Melody THE SCENE: Inside a cave, atop a mountain overlooking Hogsmeade. Prompted by the TRIO's curioisity, SIRIUS describes the rise and fall of Barty Crouch Sr. during Vold War I. SIRIUS: A lot of people who were against the Dark Side . . . well, you wouldn't understand . . . you're too young. ... RON: That's what my dad said at the World Cup .Try us, why don't you? SIRIUS: All right, I'll try you. . . .Imagine that Voldemort's powerful now .. (music) It was with sheer monstrosity And grisly bellicosity The Dark Lord bought such terror and such strife And through his fierce ferocity Each day a new atrocity Thanks to his animosity toward life Some wizards he'd torture, some Muggles he'd kill A witch, he might scorch her, and seize her will And you could not tell who was who Were you for us or You-Know-You? But Barty C. undertook new decrees So as to seize all of these DEs Without a trial, too His generosity toward foes was quite subdued Was quite subdued! Crouch moved with great velocity To bring some reciprocity His aim was to use fire to fight with fire He gave Aurors authority To murder the majority Those whom with Voldemort-ity conspired BC wants to be head man See, he'd head up MOM Then it hit the headlines, Man, like some bomb That brat they call BC (like his Pa) Lined up with DEs (See the shock of Ma!) So BC Senior used the law To feed Junior to a `Mentor maw To prove he hated You-Know-Who The heartless ironies of life hit hard at them Hit hard at them So with Crouch's setback, he blew it Fell apart in all the polls The Ministry's head man now Corny Fudge is BC gave his elf the ax, uh uh His heart is too hard His son soon was jailed screaming aloud By soul-sucking fiends in their dark shrouds I heard he did not live too long there, he BC's wife died, he's now solitary My story's end is grim: The gaunt vicissitudes of life came home to him. SIRIUS (joined by the TRIO) It was the gaunt vicissitudes That taunt and then dismiss a dude That haunted King Macbeth who saw his knife So let's now insist we conclude On Crouch and all his remiss brood The grim and gaunt vicissitudes of life The grim and gaunt vicissitudes of life - CMC (maybe I should have had Sirius change into Padfoot as he sings it, to keep the "Jungle Book" motif) HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From julia at thequiltbug.com Fri Mar 21 01:27:56 2003 From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:27:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP Book covers Message-ID: <20030320172756.7342.h009.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> No: HPFGUIDX 54016 "sam2sar" wrote: > My first thought was that the room pictured on the cover was the > favorite room at Hogwarts but now I think it is the new place Harry > is going to see in the OoP. I wonder if the place with all the doors could be St. Mungo's? Some people have speculated that Fudge may try to have Harry sent there, claiming Harry is insane. Maybe Harry is escaping from St. Mungo's? There wouldn't be a bunch of candles there, probably, though. Or, perhaps it's Malfoy Manor. The cover looks somewhat creepy. Maybe somehow Harry ends up there, and must escape, hence all the doors. Malfoy Manor would probably have lots of candles. Or, perhaps all those doors are a metaphor for some serious choices Harry's going to have to make in this book, and his looking over his shoulder means he's getting a glimpse into the past (ie Dumbledore telling him everything - though I doubt it will really be *everything*) in order to make the decisions that will affect his future. Or maybe I'm just nuts, need to be committed to St. Mungo's as well! --Calliope http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/ http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ From patricia at obscure.org Fri Mar 21 01:35:33 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 20:35:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: book covers of OoTP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54017 On Thu, 20 Mar 2003, Tyler Hewitt wrote: > I like the American book cover the best of the three, > but upon seeing it I immediately started wondering > what was on the back cover. The back covers of the > first four books have continuations of the front cover > art, so I assume the same is true of the OoP cover. I would also like to see the inside flaps. If I recall, there was a small rat (Scabbers/Pettigrew, presumably) hiding on the inside flap of PoA. > I'm also wondering about the candles. The candles near > the bottom right corner of the cover are kind of > ghostly, translucent looking. At first I thought they > wee somehow on or part of Harry's robes. Notice also > how the flame and smoke of all the candles are > sweeping towards the left. It looks like a breeze is > blowing them from the right, or maybe the movement of > Harry's arm is causing it. Harry is looking back > behind his shoulder, in the direction the breeze would > be coming from, almost as if he is startled by > something behind him. Judging by the highlights in Harry's hair and the lighting on his face, there appears to be some light source up and to the right behind him. Harry seems to be looking directly at it. This could also be the direction the breeze is coming from. On the other hand, the candles in the background are blowing the in the opposite direction. Perhaps there is a whirlwind effect. On Thu, 20 Mar 2003, erisedstraeh2002 wrote: > Julie wrote: > > > But to me it looks as though the room is actually spinning, and > > therefore the breeze? > > Me again: > > That looks more to me like the swoosh of Harry bringing his wand up > (look at how there is a sweep that follows what one could perceive as > his rising hand motion) - but perhaps that swoosh is creating the > breeze that's rippling the candle flames? It seems unlikely to me that simply raising an arm would affect so many candles so uniformly, even candles behind him and on the opposite side of his body from the raised arm. > Julie again: > > > Also, is there something reflected in Harry's glasses? Is there a > > way to magnify the image to find this out? > > Me again: > > I see sparkly stuff in his hair and on his glasses, but I'm at a loss > to explain it (but it's very pretty!). I think those are higlights/reflected light from the unseen light source and from the candles. > Some other things I noticed - the expression on Harry's face looks > intent and determined, rather than fearful or angry. I agree. I could see calling his expression "wary" or "inquiring," but he certainly doesn't see to be overwhelmed by emotion of any sort. > I'm also not > convinced that the room is circular - it could just be the > perspective the artist is showing us. I think the room may be a tower. The ceiling is hard to make out, but it appears to me to be made up of pointed triangular pieces, like you would see on a turret. On the other hand, the picture looks like it could be a bit fish-eyed around the edges, lending credence to the theory that what we are seeing is a reflection in a mirror. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From carrie525 at mybluelight.com Fri Mar 21 02:04:44 2003 From: carrie525 at mybluelight.com (Carrie S) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:04:44 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape wants acknowledgement for saving Harry ... References: <20030320210659.11605.qmail@web13509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001f01c2ef4e$3faec0e0$a71a5142@net> No: HPFGUIDX 54018 Hi Everyone, iluvgahan wrote: > It's a small point, but I disagree that Snape doesn't want > some sort of acknowledgement from Harry for saving Harry's > life. My first reason is that in PoA when Snape confronts > Sirius and Lupin in the Shrieking Shack, Harry gets in the > way and Snape said something to the effect of 'you should > be down on bended knee thanking me' (not exact quote, but i > think it's close enough that you all know what I mean). My > second reason for thinking Snape wants some reward is when > Sirius escaped it made him furious, and when he lost his > Order of Merlin (he and Fudge were talking about that in > the corridor), I think it made him even madder.. Carrie responds: I agree, with this. Great observations. Although I do think that by OofP it's way too late for Harry to come and try to make an acknowledgement to Snape. That ship has sailed. I think for them to "make up" they will have to be either together fighting LV, forcing them to act like a team or Dumbledore will have to do it. But obviously Snape is not beyond wanting some recognition. After all he is Slytherin and ambitious. An Order of Merlin, or credit for saving Harry Potter's life (which might in itself, get him an Order) I don't see him passing it up. Carrie From julietiswaiting at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 23:22:23 2003 From: julietiswaiting at yahoo.com (Jessica) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 23:22:23 -0000 Subject: ? on Dumbledore's real age? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54019 I am on my third time around in the Potters series. Something hit me. I know the time line states that he is probably 150 years old. But how can this be, if he help Nicholas Flamel with the Stone? Flamel is over 650 years old. I am I missing something. I do not think he would use the stone on himself,because the stone was distroyed. But still confused. Hope you can help, Thanks.Jessica From trinity61us at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 23:33:05 2003 From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:33:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: book covers of OoTP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030320233305.54597.qmail@web14911.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54020 OOH! I just saw the American cover, and I really like it a LOT more than Mary GranPre's previous covers. Too cartoony. I wish I could get the adult covers, but this one will work for me! Alex From a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 23:34:05 2003 From: a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com (a_rude_mechanical) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 23:34:05 -0000 Subject: House Cup versus Quidditch Cup Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54021 Two questions: 1) Are the House and Quidditch Cups connected in any way? 2) Is Bill Weasley a charm breaker for Gringotts? Elisabeth From t.forch at mail.dk Fri Mar 21 00:13:36 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 01:13:36 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.20030320155001.00a709b0@mail.wombatzone.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030321010751.00c62ae0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54022 At 22:55 20-03-03 +0000, Martin Soilleux-Cardwell wrote: >However, I would like to go back to my initial point, if I may. There >is only one person who knows who cast the first Patronus, and that is >JKR. I am confused as to what you mean with this. The Patronus was cast only once (I assume you mean only the Patronus that saved Harry, Hermione and Sirius when the Dementor was about to administer the Kiss to Harry?), so what do you mean with 'the first Patronus' ? Or do you mean the Patronus at the Quidditch Match? Troels Forchhammer From t.forch at mail.dk Fri Mar 21 00:28:09 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 01:28:09 +0100 Subject: Changing the past (was: Re: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030321011600.00c61610@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54023 At 18:45 20-03-03 -0500, Edward Post wrote: The inviolability of the past: >And then Troels kindly answered: > > >You might say that they had to go back in time to ensure that the > >past happened correctly - the way they had experienced it before. > >But to keep the statements consistent, don't we have to accept that if >something went 'wrong' it cannot be changed. Exactly! >In this particular incident, Dumbledore says to Harry and Hermione that MORE >time is needed to rescue Sirius and Buckbeak. As soon as he uses a relative >term, didn't Dumbledore indicate the goal was to make something change? I took this to refer the extra three hours Harry and Hermione gets by 'doubling' them (going back allows them to use those three hours doubly by being two places at once). Having said all this, I realise that some of the descriptions Hermione gives of how wrong things can go if one attempts to change the past, actually involve a changing of the past (she mentions killing one's former self), but it is, IMO, significant that nothing happens during that chapter ('Hermione's Secret') that actually changes anything. We are treated to a new viewpoint of the exact same events, which in some cases significantly changes our perception / interpretation of the events, but nowhere is anything /actually/ changed. Having a definitely scientific turn of mind, I tend to disregard the examples Hermione gives as stories she has been told to frighten her from attempting to change the past, or something like that - I focus on her insistence that they should /not/ do anything that risks introducing a 'new' event ... I would find it very difficult to accept that magic could change something as fundamental as time, but that (I know) is just me ;-) Troels From basementgirl74 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 00:34:56 2003 From: basementgirl74 at yahoo.com (The Sparrow) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:34:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: A better site for book covers. plus some thoughts on the movie...... Message-ID: <20030321003456.34578.qmail@web40508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54024 In a message from Thursday,20 March, ickle ronnikins wrote: Have you seen the OotP Covers? Check them out at the-leaky-cauldron.org. Though I don't think we can deduce much plot from these covers. I reply: I couldn't get that one to work, but I found one of them (assuming there's a few possibles)on www.mugglenet.com. It's only the U.S. cover and if no one has an objection I think it's pretty lame. Considering the serious pace the books have, I'm of the opinion this cover leaves OotP looking like a "kid's book". I guess they mean to do this so parent's will buy it thinking 'oh, this one might be nicer'. Speaking of the serious nature , I'm wondering how the film will deal with the Dementors and the Voldemort/Harry confrontation-not only fairly frightening stuff (I'm scared of the Dementors just in my head!)- but how can you make this sort of thing PG? Surley they wouldn't make it M (or whatever the adult rating is in Britain/U.S.). Mugglenet also has a photolist of the cast for the movie. I only have a problem with Penelope Clearwater-unless they put her in a wig, and I hope she has a nice clipped London accent. One other thing *really* bothers me-WHERE IS TRELAWNEY! Love Sparrow __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From mrsbonsai at charter.net Fri Mar 21 01:59:52 2003 From: mrsbonsai at charter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 01:59:52 -0000 Subject: book covers of OoTP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54025 Patricia wrote: the candles in the background are blowing the in the opposite direction. Perhaps there is a whirlwind effect. > Julie (Me) wrote: But to me it looks as though the room is actually spinning, and therefore the breeze? > Phyllis wrote: That looks more to me like the swoosh of Harry bringing his wand up (look at how there is a sweep that follows what one could perceive as his rising hand motion) - but perhaps that swoosh is creating the breeze that's rippling the candle flames? Patricia wrote: > It seems unlikely to me that simply raising an arm would affect so many candles so uniformly, even candles behind him and on the opposite side of his body from the raised arm. Julie (Me) again: Ok, now in further examination of that picture, we notice that Harry's wand would have hit the candle which stands behind it, and would be about to hit the candle which stands in front of his arm (assuming we're following a swooshing arm.) But I have to agree, and thought the same, that the candles in the background are going in the opposite direction of the candles in front of it. I'm still more inclined to believe that he's looking backwards into a mirror (therefore we're seeing the photo in the mirror) looking into the spinning room. It would explain the figure and candle images reflected in his glasses. Does anyone else see this? Or do I need new glasses myself? Julie From mrsbonsai at charter.net Fri Mar 21 02:04:50 2003 From: mrsbonsai at charter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 02:04:50 -0000 Subject: A better site for book covers You can see the image in the glasses!!! In-Reply-To: <20030321003456.34578.qmail@web40508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54026 http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/images/2003/03/HarryPotterPhoenixAmerican.jpg WOW! There is definately an image on the left side of the picture in his glasses!!! You can see a nose and an eyebrow and an eye!!! Thank you for the blow up site :) Julie From mrsbonsai at charter.net Fri Mar 21 02:10:39 2003 From: mrsbonsai at charter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 02:10:39 -0000 Subject: A better site for book covers You can see the image in the glasses!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54027 Sorry to keep posting :) But I also see now in that bigger picture, those doors all look to me as though they either have mirrors or glass on them, explaining the ghostly look of the floating candles. And from where Harry's wand is standing, and the directions of the flames, I'd have to say the room looks like it is spinning to me. It would also account for "floating" candle looks, as it's reflected and moving fast, it would leave streaks. Could this be someone's photo of a situation? Does someone have another cover by them that they can look at Harry's scar and see if it's "mirror" imaged in this picture? Julie From heidit at netbox.com Fri Mar 21 02:51:10 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:51:10 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Washington Post Mary Grand Pre Article Link (WAS: book co... Message-ID: <50.19fa49ee.2babd81e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54028 In a message dated 3/20/2003 4:14:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com writes: > The article doesn't conclusively say whether she read OoP before > completing the jacket, but it's quite interesting. No, but we at TLC answered that tonight - as per my preview earlier today, I spoke with Mary GrandPre's agent, and learned that she has, in fact, read the entirity of OoTP and created the coverart from her inspiration from that. She's also done the chapter header art but we don't yet know what that features. Heidi Tandy Team TLC [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 03:17:32 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 03:17:32 -0000 Subject: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54029 --- Finwitch wrote: > Good point, Greicy. But why would any teenage boy lie on his back in > flowerbed? Good start, I must say... there's something wrong with the > boy - he's probably unconsious or unable to move, if not dead. It > could be Harry, Dudley or even Draco Malfoy. With Polyjuice Potion, > that boy could be anyone! When I first read that paragraph, my first thought was that Harry was out weeding the flower beds, and took a moment to rest because it's so hot. As for why he's on his back -- it might just be comfortable (who here sprawls on their back when they're really tired? I know I do), he might be looking to see if Hedwig's brought him any birthday cards, or he might be really homesick and is trying to see Hogwarts or other familiar shapes in the clouds. :) So yeah, I think it's Harry. Andrea From grace701 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 03:22:47 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 03:22:47 -0000 Subject: book covers of OoTP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54030 Patricia wrote: >the candles in the background are blowing the in the >opposite direction. Perhaps there is a whirlwind effect. Julie (Me) wrote: >to me it looks as though the room is actually spinning, and therefore the breeze? >Phyllis wrote: >That looks more to me like the swoosh of Harry >bringing his wand up (look at how there is a sweep that follows what >one could perceive as his rising hand motion) - but perhaps that >swoosh is creating the breeze that's rippling the candle flames? Patricia wrote: >It seems unlikely to me that simply raising an arm would affect so >many candles so uniformly, even candles behind him and on the >opposite side of his body from the raised arm. Julie wrote: >Ok, now in further examination of that picture, we notice that >Harry's wand would have hit the candle which stands behind it, and >would be about to hit the candle which stands in front of his arm >(assuming we're following a swooshing arm.) But I have to agree, >and thought the same, that the candles in the background are going >in the opposite direction of the candles in front of it. I'm still >more inclined to believe that he's looking backwards into a mirror >(therefore we're seeing the photo in the mirror) looking into the >spinning room. It would explain the figure and candle images >reflected in his glasses. >Does anyone else see this? Or do I need new glasses myself? I can't see it as though he's looking in a mirror. I see him just swooshing around because something, or someone, caught his attention. He's looking up towards the ceiling? So I'm thinking he turned so suddenly it caused the candles around him to move the same way he turned because the other candles in the background are moving the opposite direction. Has anyone noticed the reflection of the candles *ON* the door. I think the doors have mirrors on them. And if that's not the case, the doors have glasses on them because you can see candles. Seems as though he maybe in a "fun house"? When are we going to see Grandpre's Hermione and Ron up close? Greicy, who's very happy the cover is her favorite color, blue and that Harry looks like a teen! =) From btk6y at virginia.edu Fri Mar 21 03:31:27 2003 From: btk6y at virginia.edu (btk6y) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 03:31:27 -0000 Subject: OOP cover- a Dementor? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54031 Interestingly, my first look at the OOP cover had me think of the Dementors. I just always have the image of Harry in Lupins classroom in PoA: "..the lamps around the classroom flickered and went out.." What if a whole horde of Dementors just walked in and the candles are about to go out? This would also explain the look of determination on Harry's face as he is about to conjure up the mother of all Patronus charms. I was also considering, could the setting of the picture be Azkaban? The doors are not likely to be going into prisoner rooms since Sirius stated that there were bars on the cell doors (he was so thin as a dog he slipped through the bars, etc). But it could be someplace in Azkaban... if not, I vote for the room with special powers since JKR obviously thinks it is a cool place and Harry will need all the help he can get if a horde of dementors walks into the room to take over Hogwarts. Incidently, I don't know how useful it is to analyze Harry's expression to death... considering the gigantic smile he has on his face in the GoF cover- if we were to extrapolate from that expression to the book plot we would have been way off. Bobby From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 03:34:32 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 03:34:32 -0000 Subject: ? on Dumbledore's real age? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54032 --- Jessica wrote: > I am on my third time around in the Potters series. Something hit me. > I know the time line states that he is probably 150 years old. But > how can this be, if he help Nicholas Flamel with the Stone? Flamel is > over 650 years old. I am I missing something. I do not think he would > use the stone on himself,because the stone was distroyed. But still > confused. Hope you can help, Thanks.Jessica JKR stated that Dumbledore was 150, so I think we can believe that. IIRC, Dumbledore's Chocolate Frog card never said he oworked on the Philosopher's Stone with Flamel. Just that he's noted for his work in alchemy with his partner Nicholas Flamel. He could still have worked with Flamel after Flamel made the initial discovery about the Stone. Maybe one of the 12 uses of dragon's blood is alchemical. Andrea From urbana at charter.net Fri Mar 21 04:09:53 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 04:09:53 -0000 Subject: OotP Covers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54033 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Devika" wrote: >> > Harry looks so much older! I know that he's 15 now, but I wasn't > expecting such a change. Wow. Actually, I just realized that Harry > looks more like the way I picture James when he was in school. > After seeing this cover, I finally realized why I've been feeling a > little anxious about OoP. I'm not worried that OoP will be a "dud," > as we were discussing a while back. However, I worry that somehow > Harry will have changed and grown so much that I won't recognize > him. Does that make any sense? YESSS!! Great insight. That's kind of what I thought too when I saw the covers today on Bloomsbury's website. And it made sense to me for Harry to suddenly look a lot older. Harry has been "small for his age" for the first 4 years we've known him. Perhaps, suddenly, as he's about to turn 15 he is starting to "shoot up". (Minor movie contamination here: Just look at how much Daniel Radcliffe changed between the beginning of shooting COS and the movie premiere -- and he's not even 14 yet.) Anyway we all know teenagers can have growth spurts that make them almost unrecognizable to people who haven't seen them in a long time. My theory is that Harry is finally starting to experience *his* growth spurt, so he's in finally in that gangly all-arms-and-legs phase that boys seem to go through. I'm betting he will always be on the lean or slender side, but will "fill out" some by the time he reaches 7th year. > Still, though, I think that I've > gotten used to seeing Harry as a child, and the OoP cover really > drove home the point that he's quickly growing up. I suppose that's > hardly a surprise after what happened to him in GoF. > I think it's combination of everything he's gone through during the past 4 years, plus his body finally catching up with him :-) Anne U (big fan of the US kids' cover of OoP) From Lynx412 at aol.com Fri Mar 21 04:47:29 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 23:47:29 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54034 In a message dated 3/20/03 6:47:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com writes: > But to keep the statements consistent, don't we have to accept that if > something went 'wrong' it cannot be changed. > > In this particular incident, Dumbledore says to Harry and Hermione that > MORE > time is needed to rescue Sirius and Buckbeak. As soon as he uses a > relative > term, didn't Dumbledore indicate the goal was to make something change? > The only way things could have gone 'wrong' in this is if H/H hadn't used the timeturner. This was what was behind Dumbledore's comment about needing 'more time'. He could not come out and say 'use the time-turner and save both Buckbeak and Sirius', but he could give them a hint on what to do. Even without using the MD theory, he was covering his tracks. If what happened that night was ever discovered he can say, in all honesty, that he didn't tell them what to do. As a long time science-fiction fan, I had no problem with that who time-travel sequence. In fact, I was rather pleased at the revelation, especially as it didn't involve invalidating the story-line by having James or even both of Harry's parents alive and monitoring him. Look at it this way...do any of you who wonder who 'first' cast the prongs patronus also wonder who took Hermione's finals? She had to be in two places at once for that? The patronus is the same thing...Harry just passed one of the most important finals of his life. Cheryl the Lynx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patricia at obscure.org Fri Mar 21 05:04:44 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 00:04:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] ? on Dumbledore's real age? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54035 On Thu, 20 Mar 2003, Jessica wrote: > I am on my third time around in the Potters series. Something hit me. > I know the time line states that he is probably 150 years old. But > how can this be, if he help Nicholas Flamel with the Stone? Flamel is > over 650 years old. I am I missing something. I do not think he would > use the stone on himself,because the stone was distroyed. But still > confused. Hope you can help, Thanks.Jessica I don't have the exact quote in front of me, but IIRC when HHR finally find the book with biographical information on Nicholas Flamel, it says (paraphrasing here), "Nicholas Flamel is the only known maker of the Sorcerer's Stone." So apparently he discovered how to make the stone all by himself, presumably long before Dumbledore was born. Later, the two worked together on other alchemical research. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From tahewitt at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 05:35:14 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:35:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: A better site for book covers You can see the image in the glasses In-Reply-To: <1048223090.3620.82255.m4@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030321053514.54361.qmail@web14202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54036 Julie wrote: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/images/2003/03/HarryPotterPhoenixAmerican.jpg WOW! There is definately an image on the left side of the picture in his glasses!!! You can see a nose and an eyebrow and an eye!!! Thank you for the blow up site :) Julie ME: Try as I might, I can't see anything in Harry's glasses. I opened the large image of the cover in Photoshop, and blew up the glasses as much as I could until the image pixilated. I could see nothing but a small circular shape (which could be an eye, but could be just about anything round). Another thought about the candles: they could be floating, not attatched to anything. This could explain how they're in front of doors,etc. Tyler __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From tahewitt at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 05:56:03 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:56:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: the OoP cover In-Reply-To: <1048191301.10493.85270.m4@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030321055603.47550.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54037 I sent my sister en e-mail with the new OoP cover, and remerked on how old Harry looks. she replied with the following: "Does this mean that Harry has hit the ultimate dark evil... PUBERTY?!" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From Meliss9900 at aol.com Fri Mar 21 06:20:58 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 01:20:58 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP Book covers Message-ID: <132.1c83a469.2bac094a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54038 In a message dated 3/20/2003 7:30:35 PM Central Standard Time, julia at thequiltbug.com writes: > Or maybe I'm just nuts, need to be committed to St. Mungo's as well! > > --Calliope > > Nah I don't think you're nuts. Those are all perfectly reasonable guess. I was thinking that the doors might symbolizes the choices that Dumbledore says everyone had to make. Maybe Harry was having a nightmare and this is what is depicted. Melissa (who was obsessing over not being able to see the front of his robes to learn if there was a prefects badge there.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From suzloua at hotmail.com Fri Mar 21 06:28:34 2003 From: suzloua at hotmail.com (Susan Atherton) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 06:28:34 -0000 Subject: The Certain Room Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54039 This has probably been discussed before, but let's be honest, what hasn't? >From www.mugglenet.com "Rowling was asked in which Hogwarts room she'd like to be for one hour. She said it would be a room in which Harry has been before, and which is mentioned in book four, but Harry doesn't know its importance. Yet." >From BBC "Red Nose Day" Online Chat Transcript, March 12, 2001 "If you could travel to Hogwarts for an hour, what would you do there? Go straight into a certain room, mentioned in book four, which has certain magical properties Harry hasn't discovered yet!" What do we think? The chamberpot room? Why is it significant? Is it because it can move? Is it the "new place" Harry will visit in book 5? Will it ever be June 21? Thoughts? Susan ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "Help me Jebus!" --Homer Simpson "Shame on you! Ugly baby judges you!" --Ross Geller "Oh yeah, and did I mention I've got a baby?" --Stuart Alan Jones "You know, I telephoned my grandparents the other day, and my grandfather said to me, 'We saw your movie.' 'Which one?' I said, and he shouted, 'Betty, what was the name of that movie I didn't like?'" --Brad Pitt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 06:33:00 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 06:33:00 -0000 Subject: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54040 Andrea: > When I first read that paragraph, my first thought was that Harry was > out weeding the flower beds, and took a moment to rest because it's so > hot. Then he'd be right next to the flowerbed, not in it. It's not like little flowers can keep up when someone's lying on them... But Harry might have been weeding and then fainted. It's hot, he hasn't had enough to drink (because those Dursleys won't let him to) and well, maybe Voldemort killed someone again so that Harry's scar hurt him on top of that... Dudley - well, Dudley wouldn't have been *left* anywhere... Seems like Harry's most likely person it is... Hopefully Sirius? gets to him before Dursleys... -- Finwitch From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 07:06:53 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 07:06:53 -0000 Subject: Godric Gryffindor from Shropshire? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54041 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tammy Bianchi" wrote: > >From: "Maria Gromova" > > > > You know, I have a distinct impression Godric Gryffindor was from > > Shropshire. ... but Shropshire is also a moorland county, and the > > Sorting Hat's song says Gryffindor was 'from wild moor'. > > ...edited... > > Maria. > > > > > Maria, > > Since I am not very familiar with the geography of the UK, how does > thislocation fit in with Hagrid's flight the night Harry's parents > were killed. ... > > Tammy bboy_mn: Quick check of some on-line maps and my paper maps, and I discovered that Shorpshire is a county south of Liverpool and west of Birmingham, and borders Wales on the west. Also, it's the county just north of Herefordshire. Largest town appears to be Shrewsbury. That puts it straight north of Bristol. Flying from Shorpshire to Surrey via Bristol is not the shortest route but it does avoid the major metropolitan areas of Birmingham and London. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 07:36:42 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 07:36:42 -0000 Subject: book covers of OoTP In-Reply-To: <20030320233557.D32124@crusaders.no> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54042 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Trond Michelsen wrote: > > ...edited.. > > > So what do you guys think? Any guesses on what the doors and candles > > could mean? > > I think it almost looks like a scene from a ghost movie. > > -- > // Trond Michelsen bboy_mn: Maybe the image is so odd because we are seeing one of Harry's dreams. The room does have a hazy dream-like quality that could be the mirror reflection that others talked about or as I suggested, a dream. The fact that the light trails from the candle flames point in the opposite direction on the other side of the room does strongly imply circular movement. It could be that the candles are swirling around him. You'll notice that Harry has candles on his back (or behind his back), and it seems like those candles produced that light trails that are near Harry's arm (at least in my opinion). Isn't there an old fairytale about a hero who has to choose a door, and behind one door is the classic beautiful princess, and behind one of the other doors is a tiger, and I can't remember what's behind the others, but I seem to remember there were 7 doors? Maybe it's a situation like that, choose the right door and save your friend; chooose the wrong door and be prepared to save your own life. Just a thought. bboy_mn From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 07:17:26 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 07:17:26 -0000 Subject: A better site for book covers!!/Harry in St Mungos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54043 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jastrangfeld" wrote: > Sorry to keep posting :) But I also see now in that bigger picture, > those doors all look to me as though they either have mirrors or glass > on them, explaining the ghostly look of the floating candles. And > from where Harry's wand is standing, and the directions of the flames, > I'd have to say the room looks like it is spinning to me. It would > also account for "floating" candle looks, as it's reflected and moving > fast, it would leave streaks. You know - since Harry's right-handed, this is likely a mirror-image (which would explain all the candles, floating on doors, particularly if there's something else reflective in that room). And I think that spinning breeze might have been caused by Harry doing such magic/the room spins. The streaks are the artist's way to express movement, speed would make Harry's hand and wand unclear... Still, maybe it's not the *room* spinning, maybe it's the candles that move? And er.. maybe Harry *will* be in St Mungos before going to Hogwarts - not because of Fudge (and others who read Rita Skeeter's article) consider him insane, but because he's physically harmed. Say, he lost his consiousness and fell into Petunia's flowerbed; Mrs Figg takes him into St Mungos (Dursleys have left Harry out to weed the garden (and locked the doors) while going for swimming themselves...?) I find it doubtful that Harry'll end up in St Mungos in mid-year, Madam Pomfrey is able enough a mediwitch herself. --Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 07:34:03 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 07:34:03 -0000 Subject: Why Summon Winky? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54044 Phyllis: > So now I have a question - why did Dumbledore summon Winky to witness > Crouch Jr.'s confession? All Winky did was cry. She wasn't asked to > confirm or deny any of what Crouch Jr. said (it would have been > unnecessary, anyway, since the veritaserum forced him to tell the > truth). She knew the whole story already, so it can't be that she > needed to hear the truth. So what was the point of having Winky > there? I just don't get it. For Dumbledore to know in case Veritaserum wears out during his questions AND to recognise Crouch Jr - I mean, Dumbledore may have guessed, but he wanted verification? And while Winky didn't need to be told the truth about Crouch Jr. under invisibility cloak, maybe she needed to know that Dumbledore knows that family secret. She maybe needed to hear from a member of the family she had served, that Crouch Jr. is now the only one left of them. Then, when Crouch Jr got the Kiss... I guess Winky will devote herself to take care of the one Crouch left - feeding him and that sort, as that's the only thing that could possibly make her happy. -- Finwitch From mpachuta at hotmail.com Fri Mar 21 03:57:44 2003 From: mpachuta at hotmail.com (Mike Pachuta) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 03:57:44 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP cover- a Dementor..or a ghost? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54045 Hi everyone, Just a thought, and I'm not sure if anyone else has considered it yet, but I wanted to toss this on the fire: What if the "magical room" JKR spoke about is the dungeon room that Nearly Headless Nick had his Deathday Party in? And what if Harry, for some reason, had to return to that room? To me, the candles and the coloring kind of resemble what the Deathday Party looks like in my head - blue candles, 'chilly-looking' air.... Perhaps the new cover art shows Harry in that dungeon room and is about to confront some new (or already introduced?) ghost. mikie p. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From tzipporah42 at hotmail.com Fri Mar 21 06:33:59 2003 From: tzipporah42 at hotmail.com (Sarah) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 06:33:59 -0000 Subject: Godric/Fawkes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54046 Hi, I'm a newbie, and I was just wondering what you guys have probably already said concerning Fawkes and Godric. Is it possible that Godric was an animagus and could become a phoenix? That would enable him to look after the school he created and obviously cared about. I only wonder because Gryffindor's colors are the exact same as Fawkes', all gold and scarlet... Can't wait for book 5! ~Sarah From martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk Fri Mar 21 09:08:07 2003 From: martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk (martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 09:08:07 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Godric Gryffindor from Shropshire? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54047 Maria wrote: >> You know, I have a distinct impression Godric Gryffindor was from >> Shropshire. There is a place called Godric's Ford [rest snipped] Tammy responded: >Since I am not very familiar with the geography of the UK, how does this >location fit in with Hagrid's flight? the night Harry's parents were killed. >I know that there is much controversy over the missing time? from when Harry >was rescued till he was dropped off at the Dursley's. Me: Shropshire is a large county on the Welsh borders. Basically oval shaped with it's long axis aligned north-south, it runs along much of the upper eastern border of Wales, in the English west midlands. The River Severn, traditionally the ancient border between England and Wales (but not any more except in a few places) flows south through much of Shropshire's western section. I know Shropshire intimately and it isn't a county I think of as having much moorland. It does have high hills in places (Wenlock Edge and the Wrekin come to mind - both large glacial deposit hills) and the land rises generally towards the west - towards Wales around the Ludlow/Leominster area but essentially Shropshire is a deeply rural county with much pasture farmland. As late as WW2 some fairly primitive farming and country crafts were practised here as a way of life. You may already know that parts of southern Shropshire were an inspiration to JRR Tolkien for the Shire, so that may give you a clue as to what a nice peaceful place it is. Shropshire begins about 70 miles due north of Bristol, which is a port-city nearer the mouth of the Severn. Now if JKR had written that Griffindor was from the Marches, then Shropshire would definitely be a candidate! If you want 'moorland' then more central and northern parts of England such as Derbyshire, western and northern Yorkshire, eastern Lancashire (all on the Pennine Hills) and areas of Cumbria, Northumberland (towards the Scottish border) are all 'moorland' regions. Regards Martin This email, together with any attachments, is for the exclusive and confidential use of the addressee(s) and may contain legally privileged information. Any other distribution, use or reproduction without the sender's prior consent is unauthorised and strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender by email immediately and delete the message from your computer without making any copies. Aon Limited Company Number: 210725 Registered Address: 8 Devonshire Square, London, EC2M 4PL Aon Limited is a member of the General Insurance Standards Council (registration 2239). From martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk Fri Mar 21 09:33:34 2003 From: martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk (martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 09:33:34 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54048 I wrote: >>However, I would like to go back to my initial point, if I may. There >>is only one person who knows who cast the first Patronus, and that is >>JKR. Troels Forchhammer wrote: >I am confused as to what you mean with this. >The Patronus was cast only once (I assume you mean only the >Patronus that saved Harry, Hermione and Sirius when the >Dementor was about to administer the Kiss to Harry?), so what >do you mean with 'the first Patronus' ? Me again: Having read my post again in the cold light of dawn (literally) I now see the flaw in my thinking. In chapters 20 and 21 there is only 1 Patronus, we just see it being cast twice from 2 different perspectives (Harry in Ch20 as the Dementors close in on him, Sirius and Hermione and again in Ch21 as Harry watches from the other side of the lake). So in fact I am now satisfied within myself that Harry conjured it, since there was only one and he definitely conjured it the second time it's described. Ergo, he must have conjured it the first time it's described as well. I need to do more Muggle studies and brush up on my logic. Regards Martin This email, together with any attachments, is for the exclusive and confidential use of the addressee(s) and may contain legally privileged information. Any other distribution, use or reproduction without the sender's prior consent is unauthorised and strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender by email immediately and delete the message from your computer without making any copies. Aon Limited Company Number: 210725 Registered Address: 8 Devonshire Square, London, EC2M 4PL Aon Limited is a member of the General Insurance Standards Council (registration 2239). From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 07:53:53 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 07:53:53 -0000 Subject: Snape saving Harry (was: Re: An odd musing about Harry's attitude - ) In-Reply-To: <17.376720f6.2bab9938@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54049 Audra: The fact that Hermione inadvertently broke > both their eye contact only means we don't know who would have won out at the > end. But either way, Snape was *not* ineffective. > -Audra- Not that his counter-curses didn't do what he intended, just that well, why didn't Snape steal Quirrell's attention - well, until Hermione *made* him to? Maybe move his hand in front of Quirrell's eyes? "Accidentally" step on Quirrell's foot? If saving Harry was his first intent, he did not choose the most effective method to do that. He was showing off his knowledge of jinxes in duel with Quirrell - not exactly saving Harry. And er.. Neville fell off from a broomstick that behaved as if jinxed, from high off and only broke his wrist. We have heard that a Seeker has died, but that might have been a bludger hitting him on the head or a failed Wronski Feint. No wizard has been reported to die because of falling off! I think that if a wizard falls, their magic keeps them from dying! I think magic would also keep a wizard safe in a car crash (Hagrid knows this... No way Lily and James *could* have died in a car crash). Oh and they won't tell the kids because they'd go try it out by jumping off the school roof - in which case it probably wouldn't work, as it was an *intended* fall. -- Finwitch From martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk Fri Mar 21 09:46:01 2003 From: martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk (martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 09:46:01 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] House Cup versus Quidditch Cup Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54050 Elisabeth asked: >1) Are the House and Quidditch Cups connected in any way? >2) Is Bill Weasley a charm breaker for Gringotts? A1) Short answer: yes. Longer answer: the House Cup is awarded at the end of each year to the Hogwarts House with the highest total of house points. The Quidditch Cup is awarded to the Quidditch Team with the highest Quidditch score at the end of the school year. I understand it to be that each team plays each of the other house teams once, for a total of 12 games of Quidditch each year. I also assume that points scored in Quidditch games are *added* to the house totals, meaning that both cups are often won by the same house since Quidditch games score highly (at least 150 points) and house points do not seem to be awarded in such huge chunks (there was anger against Harry in PoA for losing 150 points when HRH were caught at night by Filch after releasing Norbert). So the gain/loss of so many house points in one go is unusual. However I may be wrong on the house/Quidditch points link... A2) I'm on less firm ground here. IIRC Bill is a cursebreaker for Gringotts bank and has worked (works?) in Egypt although quite what requires his skills there isn't made clear. My assumption with curses in Egypt leads me to think of curses on mummies tombs which implies the Gringotts goblins gain some of their investment capital through grave robbing, which isn't a nice line of thought to pursue. Regards Martin This email, together with any attachments, is for the exclusive and confidential use of the addressee(s) and may contain legally privileged information. Any other distribution, use or reproduction without the sender's prior consent is unauthorised and strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender by email immediately and delete the message from your computer without making any copies. Aon Limited Company Number: 210725 Registered Address: 8 Devonshire Square, London, EC2M 4PL Aon Limited is a member of the General Insurance Standards Council (registration 2239). From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 08:52:43 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 08:52:43 -0000 Subject: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54051 Cheryl the Lynx wrote: > > Look at it this way...do any of you who wonder who 'first' cast the > prongs patronus also wonder who took Hermione's finals? She had to be in two > places at once for that? The patronus is the same thing...Harry just passed > one of the most important finals of his life. That's a good point. I've read a lot of stories including time- travel - many of them include person A going back in time to solve some mystery only to figure out that it was person A causing it in the first place. That just never ceases to amuse me... As it is not linear cause and consequence but circular. It's not a time-line, it's a time-circle. I myself, I love circles enough to think that time's a circle-dimention in reality, but the circle is so big that it seems linear to us, just like the Earth's surface... -- Finwitch From MKELLER at SUNLINK.NET Fri Mar 21 11:57:18 2003 From: MKELLER at SUNLINK.NET (jksunflower2002) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 11:57:18 -0000 Subject: OOP cover- a Dementor..or a ghost? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54052 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mike Pachuta" wrote: > > Perhaps the new cover art shows Harry in that dungeon room and is about to > confront some new (or already introduced?) ghost. > > mikie p. > The first thing that occurred to me after seeing the US cover is that Harry actually IS a ghost. JK has been quoted as saying that in book five Harry's going to have to examine what death means "in even closer ways." I was assuming this meant a person close to him dies (which apparantly IS going to happen.) But now I'm thinking it alludes to Harry experiencing some aspect of the afterlife first hand. That the "magical world" he visits is in fact some kind of ghostly realm. Perhaps this is how we learn about some of the other ghosts in the castle, and how they became ghosts in the first place. Also, the passage in GoF, US edition page 372 may be a foreshadowing of this occurrence: In reference to Trelawney's prediction of Harry's desmise yet again; "But if I'd dropped dead every time she's told me I'm going to, I'd be a medical miracle.' 'You'd be a sort of extra-concentrated ghost,' said Ron, chortling, as they passed the Bloody Baron going in the opposite direction, his wide eyes staring sinisterly." That passage has always jumped out at me for some reason. I feel sure we're going to at least learn of the Baron's history in book five. > _________________________ Toad (who is literally marking off the calendar day by day in anticipation of OotP's release.) > _________________________________________________________________ > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From cindysphynx at comcast.net Fri Mar 21 12:43:40 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 12:43:40 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Book Covers Thread Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54053 Hi, everyone, Just a quick reminder about the book covers thread. Please keep in mind that all posts to this list must make a canon point about the books. For instance, it would be fine to post that the cover art has given you an idea about what "Order of the Phoenix" might mean. Or the art suggests to you that perhaps Harry will go to Azkaban in OoP. On the other hand, opinions about the art as art are technically off topic and really should be directed to our sister list, OT-Chatter: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/ For more information on our Content Guidelines, check out the Humongous BigFile: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin% 20Files/hbfile.html Thanks for understanding. Cindy, for the Mods From htfulcher at comcast.net Fri Mar 21 12:52:24 2003 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 12:52:24 -0000 Subject: The Certain Room In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54054 Re Susan Atherton's post that "Rowling was asked in which Hogwarts room she'd like to be for one hour. She said it would be a room in which Harry has been before, and which is mentioned in book four, but Harry doesn't know its importance. Yet." >Susan says, What do we think? The chamberpot room? Why is it significant? Is it because it can move? Is it the "new place" Harry will visit in book 5? Will it ever be June 21? ME replies: If the chamberpot room in question is the one Dumbledore mentions at the Ball, I don't think this could be it -- Harry himself hasn't been in it. However, perhaps the room in question could be the Prefects' Bathroom? If not that, the only other room I could consider a possibility would be the kitchens. MarEphraim From artsylynda at aol.com Fri Mar 21 14:47:16 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 09:47:16 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 2620 Message-ID: <114.20a4f5f4.2bac7ff4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54055 Calliope: > I wonder if the place with all the doors could be St. Mungo's? Some people > have > speculated that Fudge may try to have Harry sent there, claiming Harry is > insane. Maybe Harry is escaping from St. Mungo's? There wouldn't be a > bunch of > candles there, probably, though. > If he were at St. Mungo's, wouldn't they have taken his wand away? Who would allow a wizard who's been locked away for some "mental problem" to have a wand? That would be dangerous, and the first thing they'd take from him, I would imagine. Then again, I think Harry is a truly GREAT wizard, if a junior-scale one for the moment, and we KNOW he can do magic without his wand (the disappearing glass at the zoo, blowing up Aunt Marge, etc.) but the wand does help concentrate the magic in some fashion so it is important. Interesting thoughts -- these speculations are fun! Can't wait to get my book so I can find out what inspired the picture! Do we know for sure that the same artist is doing the chapter illustrations? Why, then, did a different artist do the UK covers? Does anyone here know? Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From artsylynda at aol.com Fri Mar 21 14:53:19 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 09:53:19 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups]Book covers of OopP Message-ID: <1de.4fe4702.2bac815f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54056 > OOH! I just saw the American cover, and I really like it a LOT more than > Mary GranPre's previous covers. Too cartoony. I wish I could get the adult > covers, but this one will work for me! > > Alex > I read somewhere that she used herself as her model for the previous covers, so (IMHO) those Harrys weren't all that masculine, nor were they well-defined and realistic. However, since he was a young boy, the masculine characteristics wouldn't be as noticeable anyway (such as softer facial contours with less definition, no sharp angles of chin, nose, jaw, for instance -- I'm an artist, I notice these things). I think the fact this one is less cartoony and more a "realistic" looking Harry can be laid right at Dan Radcliffe's doorstep. But that's just MHO. Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From heidit at netbox.com Fri Mar 21 15:01:38 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 10:01:38 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 2620 Message-ID: <134.1d056da0.2bac8352@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54057 In a message dated 3/21/2003 9:47:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, artsylynda at aol.com writes: > Do we know for sure that the same artist is doing the chapter illustrations? > > Why, then, did a different artist do the UK covers? Does anyone here know? Per my interview with Mary GrandPre's agent yesterday, she has finished her chapter illustrations. She's done all the covers for the US editions, but the UK editions have had a few different artists for the different books. heidi [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From artsylynda at aol.com Fri Mar 21 15:11:05 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 10:11:05 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Book covers on OoTP Message-ID: <23.2d6411c8.2bac8589@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54058 In a message dated 3/21/2003 12:05:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > I'm still more inclined to > believe that he's looking backwards into a mirror (therefore we're > seeing the photo in the mirror) looking into the spinning room. It > would explain the figure and candle images reflected in his glasses. > > Does anyone else see this? Or do I need new glasses myself? > > Julie > I only see reflections of candles in Harry's glasses -- maybe I'm the one who needs new glasses?? LOL! Upon further study of the picture, it looks like he might be in a hall of mirrors -- the candles appear to be circling him -- the ones with the flames going the other way are on the other side of the circle. They are reflected in the "doors" and the "walls behind the doors" with their flames going the same way. I just popped over to The Leaky Cauldron: We Blog for Harry Potter ( http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/ ) to see the cover again and saw a news item saying Mary GrandPre DID read the entire book, and she's the only one who has. So again, my question is, why use a different artist for the UK and International covers??? Seems odd to me. I didn't know anything about this artist, so I did a search online for info about her. http://www.marygrandpre.com says she was educated in the US, and other indications in there make her sound American. So did Scholastic choose her and JKR then liked her work for the UK books as well? Or what? Does anyone know? I thought JKR wanted only Brits involved in the production of her work, but maybe that's just for the movies. Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grace701 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 15:23:04 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 15:23:04 -0000 Subject: Who conjures the Prongs Patronus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54059 Martin Soilleux-Cardwell wrote: >However, I would like to go back to my initial point, if I may. >There is only one person who knows who cast the first Patronus, and >that is JKR. Harry *thinks* it was himself because no other >information that he has fits the events, and the only alternative >(which I think he was 'hoping' for initially as he made his way >around the lake) was that his father had cast it. >I agree that Harry1 saw a Patronus as the Dementors closed in and >agree that Harry2 was in fact on the other side of the lake at the >time. But if you consider that another person *did* cast Patronus1, >and for reasons of his own did not want Harry2 to discover him, and >hid/fled, then Harry2 more or less has to come to the conclusion >that Harry1 saw Harry2 cast Patronus1 and so Harry2 then in fact >casts it. >Am I making sense? >I think readers assume Harry2 cast Patronus1 because Harry2 assumes >it. But the possibility exists, and the facts we are given in the >book don't contradict that possibility, that it *was* someone else >that Harry1 saw cast Patronus1. >Personally I am quite happy for Harry2 to have cast it, but when I >read that chapter first time around I have to admit there was a >lump in my throat and a faint hope that Harry might encounter his >dead father. My own father died many years ago and the wish to get >the chance to see him again is always present. JKR has mentioned in >interviews that only some dead wizards come back as ghosts and why >this is will be revealed in a later book. So I am keeping an open >mind that it may just have been James by the lake after all... >(1) Newton's and Einstein's laws do not always apply when you are a > Wizard. Martin, you are making sense to me, a lot of sense! I wasn't confused anymore about the Time Turner Paradox, but my question always still remained how did Harry1 survive to save Harry2. So I am adopting your theory, which I have thought of, but you made it REAL to me. That James, in fact, was there, but disappear when Harry was around. Ghosts do seem to know what's happening so why wouldn't James know what was happening that night as well. Greicy From grace701 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 15:29:50 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 15:29:50 -0000 Subject: Harry's Missing Hours (was Re: Godric Gryffindor from Shropshire?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54060 Tammy wrote: >Since I am not very familiar with the geography of the UK, how does >this location fit in with Hagrid's flight the night Harry's parents were killed. I know that there is much controversy over the >missing time from when Harry was rescued till he was dropped off >at the Dursley's. I don't know if this has come up before, but maybe the hours that Harry was with Hagrid is because he was taken to Nicolas Flamel. In Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter, it states that there is a possibility that Harry could have gone to him. It also states that the old magic around the Dursley's could be some form of, or is, the Fidelus Charm. So maybe that's why he was missing, as Dumbledore was making sure everything was set in the house. I don't think that the Fidelus Charm would make much sense because Wizards do recognize Harry and from my understand no one should know where the person is, much less be seen. Greicy From martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk Fri Mar 21 09:55:20 2003 From: martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk (martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 09:55:20 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Godric/Fawkes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54061 Sarah wrote: >Is it possible that Godric was an animagus and could become a phoenix? Interesting idea. Hmmm.... This raises issues of how much of the animal does a wizard become when in animagus form. I presume that in animal form the human mind is still wholly active (to be able to work the spell that turns him/her back into human form if nothing else). But what powers of the animal does the wizard have? Clearly an animagus bird would be able to fly, an animagus fish to breathe under water (Krum-shark in GoF) but what other powers? Could an animagus phoenix effectively become immortal if s/he stayed in phoenix form for ever? Regards Martin This email, together with any attachments, is for the exclusive and confidential use of the addressee(s) and may contain legally privileged information. Any other distribution, use or reproduction without the sender's prior consent is unauthorised and strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender by email immediately and delete the message from your computer without making any copies. Aon Limited Company Number: 210725 Registered Address: 8 Devonshire Square, London, EC2M 4PL Aon Limited is a member of the General Insurance Standards Council (registration 2239). From ananke_2 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 15:06:06 2003 From: ananke_2 at yahoo.com (ananke_2) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 15:06:06 -0000 Subject: Death because of falling off?/ Re: Snape saving Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54062 This is my first post to the group (so hello everyone!) and although English is my second language, I hope you'll get my point :) --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > > Audra: > The fact that Hermione inadvertently broke > > both their eye contact only means we don't know who would have won > out at the > > end. But either way, Snape was *not* ineffective. > > -Audra- > > Not that his counter-curses didn't do what he intended, just that > well, why didn't Snape steal Quirrell's attention - well, until > Hermione *made* him to? Maybe move his hand in front of Quirrell's > eyes? "Accidentally" step on Quirrell's foot? > > If saving Harry was his first intent, he did not choose the most > effective method to do that. He was showing off his knowledge of > jinxes in duel with Quirrell - not exactly saving Harry. > > And er.. Neville fell off from a broomstick that behaved as if > jinxed, from high off and only broke his wrist. We have heard that a > Seeker has died, but that might have been a bludger hitting him on > the head or a failed Wronski Feint. No wizard has been reported to > die because of falling off! > -- Finwitch I totally agree. For me, the whole 'business' with falling off is a bit unclear. Another mention off falling off is when in PS/SS Neville tells Harry that his family only discovered he was not a squib when his uncle accidentally let go off him while holding him by his ankles through the window and N just bounced off the ground. There is no mention that he was injured in any way. Then, when he fell off the broomstick at Hogwarts he only broke his wrist. There are a few more incidents of falling off broomsticks during Quidditch(Wood and Angelina come to my mind). So why did Quirrel believe that he could kill Harry by making him fall off? Surely, as a grownup wizard he should have known this wouldn't work? And so should Snape, so all the discussion whether he was trying to save H's life or not is in a way 'irrelevant' because even if Snape didn't cast counterjinxes and H fell off he wouldn't die. And why did Dumbledore 'slow down' Harry when he fell off in PoA? My guess is he didn't want Harry to be seriously injured and not to save his life. And then, why all the students thought he might have been dead if they probably knew about Neville's falling through the window? Any guesses? -Monika (who apologises for using the words 'falling off' that often and for any mistakes she's made) PS. Does anyone know when OoP will be released in Eastern Europe (Poland, to be precise)? I mean the UK version, not a translation. From sam2sar at charter.net Fri Mar 21 16:06:16 2003 From: sam2sar at charter.net (sam2sar) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 16:06:16 -0000 Subject: Dementors after Harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54063 I have just finished PoA again and a thought occured to me. Do the Dementors have standing orders from Voldemort to give Harry the Kiss. Did they search every compartment on the train? Since they are "natural allies" with Voldemort if they destroy Harry he could rise again and have plenty of humans to suck happy thoughts from. They seemed to have went after Harry at least 3 times 1. on the train to Hogwarts 2. at the Quidditch match 3. by the lake with Sirius and Hermione ( maybe thats why they went after Harry first) Sam I Am From patricia at obscure.org Fri Mar 21 16:09:17 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 11:09:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: book covers of OoTP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54064 On Fri, 21 Mar 2003, Steve wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Trond Michelsen > wrote: > > > > I think it almost looks like a scene from a ghost movie. > > > bboy_mn: > > Maybe the image is so odd because we are seeing one of Harry's dreams. Previous covers have not portrayed a single particular scene from the book. Rather, Mary GrandPre in the past has combined significant events and characters from many parts of the book. So we may not be looking at one event but an amalgam of different elements from OotP. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From grace701 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 16:12:58 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 16:12:58 -0000 Subject: book covers of OoTP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54065 bboy_mn: >Maybe the image is so odd because we are seeing one of Harry's >dreams. >The room does have a hazy dream-like quality that could be the >mirror reflection that others talked about or as I suggested, a >dream. The fact that the light trails from the candle flames point >in the opposite direction on the other side of the room does >strongly imply circular movement. It could be that the candles are >swirling around him. >You'll notice that Harry has candles on his back (or behind his >back), and it seems like those candles produced that light trails >that are near Harry's arm (at least in my opinion). >Isn't there an old fairytale about a hero who has to choose a door, >and behind one door is the classic beautiful princess, and behind >one of the other doors is a tiger, and I can't remember what's >behind the others, but I seem to remember there were 7 doors? >Maybe it's a situation like that, choose the right door and save >your friend; chooose the wrong door and be prepared to save your >own life. I remember a story just like that Steve. For some reason Narnia came to my head, but I have only read one book: The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe, so I don't know if I'm correct. But I remember it, too. Hmmm....where can we find out this information? Greicy From grosich at nyc.rr.com Fri Mar 21 16:47:58 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (rosich10002) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 16:47:58 -0000 Subject: Death because of falling off?/ Re: Snape saving Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54066 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" > wrote: > > > > > > Not that his counter-curses didn't do what he intended, just that > > well, why didn't Snape steal Quirrell's attention - well, until > > Hermione *made* him to? Maybe move his hand in front of Quirrell's > > eyes? "Accidentally" step on Quirrell's foot? > > > > If saving Harry was his first intent, he did not choose the most > > effective method to do that. He was showing off his knowledge of > > jinxes in duel with Quirrell - not exactly saving Harry. ME: Three explanations come to mind. First, Snape was trying to be discreet about it. He may not have known for sure that it was Quirrell doing the jinx, just that *someone* was jinxing the broom. Second, if he *did* know it was Quirrell for sure, he would not want to bring attention to the whole school on this. I think hs style would be to deal with the problem quietly and then run and inform Dumbledore. Finally, it was pointed out by both Snape and Hermione in book one that wizards are not the most logical creatures. Sometimes the simplest answer (dealing with something physically instead of magically for example) might be muggle thinking, but not immediately occur to a witch or wizard. > > > > And er.. Neville fell off from a broomstick that behaved as if > > jinxed, from high off and only broke his wrist. We have heard that > a > > Seeker has died, but that might have been a bludger hitting him on > > the head or a failed Wronski Feint. No wizard has been reported to > > die because of falling off! > ME: Not reported that we know of. But that doesn't mean Quirrell wouldn't have tried to do something else to Harry after he falls off the broom. An extra-hard landing, for example. And maybe Quirrell would've been happy to severely injure Harry to incapacitate him, and finish him off later. As for Neville's injury. I would imagine the kids fly a heck of a lot faster playing Quidditch than during flying practice. Even if Neville had no control over his broom and fell off, he did not have to deal with bludgers and flying players speeding by during his descent. Professional Quidditch players probably learn ways to protect themselves during falls. On a final note, I can think of plenty of opportunities for Snape to "show off" his ability to perform counter-curses. The fact that Harry didn't know that was up just further proves Snape was trying to simply do something good. I just find man's efforts are underrated in the books and I hope his redemption story brings some great external reward (Order of Merlin?) in the end in addition to the moral victory for turning away from the dark lord. Gina From lsprufrock at aol.com Fri Mar 21 17:23:45 2003 From: lsprufrock at aol.com (jprufrock17) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 17:23:45 -0000 Subject: A better site for book covers You can see the image in the glasses!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54067 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jastrangfeld" wrote: > http://www.the-leaky- cauldron.org/images/2003/03/HarryPotterPhoenixAmerican.jpg > > WOW! There is definately an image on the left side of the picture in > his glasses!!! You can see a nose and an eyebrow and an eye!!! > > Thank you for the blow up site :) > > Julie Actually, Julie, when I looked at the blowup image, the image looks like a profile of a Phoenix! jprufrock From aesob at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 18:40:44 2003 From: aesob at yahoo.com (Alex) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 18:40:44 -0000 Subject: OoTP book covers & interpretations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54068 I'll try to keep this at least _mostly_ related to canon, but as a graphic designer who has plenty of art direction experience, that may slip out, so I'll apologize in advance. First of all, I love the American cover much more than the UK ones, if for no other reason that it gives us something to discuss! What can be said about a phoenix rising from flames? The first thing I find interesting in the American cover is its blueness. Even the flames of the candles are in blue tones, and the light they're producing is blue. This either means that they are bewitched to give off a blue light (which is possible since they're obviously magically floating) and the blue is an indication of something. My take: the blue has something to do with ghosts. JKR has said we will learn more about why people become ghosts, and though I don't think Harry is a ghost here (as one other poster suggested), the bluish light certainly lends a ghostly quality, so ghosts might very well figure largely in the storyline. Also, look at the way "and the Order of the Phoenix" is written: it has a ghostly, ethereal, almost translucent look, and the dotted part of the 'i' trails just like the candles. The other possibility is that Ms. GrandPre chose to illustrate the cover in blue tones to acheive a cold, dreary or spookier feel, and that it has nothing to do with the plot...but I don't think so. It would still be spooky even if the candle flames were yellow and Harry's face glowed with a yellow cast As for the right hand/left hand thing, we have to keep in mind that the cover art is not art-directed by JKR, and that GrandPre is only interpreting what she reads into something for us to see. Just because Harry is holding his wand in his left hand doesn't mean that he's looking in a mirror or that he's suddenly left-handed. GrandPre probably chose to put the wand there because it just looked better that way. Artist's choice doesn't necessarily fit into canon. Also, it's my opinion that what we see in Harry's glasses is nothing other than the reflections of the nearest flames. I see no nose or body parts. This brings up a point that I don't think anyone else has made: wherever he is, Harry is definitely alone. This could be important to the plot. Usually he always has Ron or Hermione with him, so what is he doing alone? This could mean another important plot development. As Harry matures, and the world gets messier and divides into good and evil (hmmm, sounds like current affairs) he's going to have to make some tough personal decisions, and he won't always have his friends to rely on. It's part of growing up and becoming a man. Our little boy is certainly growing up! > bboy_mn: > >The room does have a hazy dream-like quality that could be the > >mirror reflection that others talked about or as I suggested, a > >dream. The fact that the light trails from the candle flames point > >in the opposite direction on the other side of the room does > >strongly imply circular movement. It could be that the candles are > >swirling around him. I don't think it's a dream unless a dream plays a very important role in the plot. GrandPre, having read the entire book, and having chosen this scene to illustrate for the cover, leads me to believe that whatever we're seeing is a pivotal part of the story, probably real-life. It doesn't appear to be an amalgam of the story, as was the case in PoA, as we're only seeing one thing. I do agree that the candles are swirling. The trails close to Harry fall to the left, but the smaller candles on the other side of the room fall to the right. (particularly look closely at the candles near Harry's wand, where one even appears to have a motion trail). I think the room is circular. The ceiling is too curved for it to be just a matter of perspective. This also lends credence to the swirling idea...this would be easier in a curved room. The question is why have a room with swirling candles? It must be plot related! I am even more intrigued thinking about what is on the back cover and the spine (which is going to be pretty wide). Are we going to see down one of the doorways? Maybe there will be something down there. The artwork has to continue for some extent to the left, so what's down there?! > bboy_mn: > >Maybe it's a situation like that, choose the right door and save > >your friend; chooose the wrong door and be prepared to save your > >own life. This is a distinct possibility, but I think it's much more broad than that. JKR has made mention that an important theme of the series is about the choices that characters make, and I think that it is one of the most important lessons that we can learn from Harry in the series, that the choices we all make have immense consequences on our lives. Each door could represent a choice (literally or metaphorically). Harry does not always make the perfect choice, and he does sometimes fly straight in the face of rules (which is why a lot of "christians" seem to have problems with the series), but he's a kid, growing and learning, and his choices always result in him doing the "good" thing. Harry may not have respect for rules, but his motivation is always to further the good side. Another odd thing I notice is the reflection of the candles in the doors (or we're seeing candles through the doors), as though they have glass in them. This is odd, as it leads me to believe that Harry can see into the doorways and make an informed decision about which door to choose. Also, as an aside, I don't think Harry looks at all like Dan Radcliffe...it looks like a rapidly maturing version of the same boy we saw on the GoF cover. He is thinner, and obviously growing taller and more wiry. At age 15, boys are at their most awkward...growing rapidly upward but not filling in yet (unless you're shaped like Crabbe and Goyle). ~~aesob From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 19:00:08 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 19:00:08 -0000 Subject: Godric/Fawkes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54069 Sarah wrote: > Hi, I'm a newbie, and I was just wondering what you guys have > probably already said concerning Fawkes and Godric. Is it > possible that Godric was an animagus and could become a phoenix? Now me: Well, since you asked, and since this is one of my favorite topics... I think there is strong support in canon for the theory that Fawkes was Godric Gryffindor's phoenix when Gryffindor was alive: (1) Fawkes is scarlet and gold, the colors of Gryffindor House. Harry's wand contains one of Fawkes' feathers as its magical core, and red and gold sparks fly from the end of his wand the first time he waves it. (2) Fawkes lives in Dumbledore's office along with the Sorting Hat and sword that we are told once belonged to Gryffindor. The large number of items in this office that were previously owned by Gryffindor also suggests that Dumbledore's office was once Gryffindor's office. This is further supported by the griffin-shaped knocker on Dumbledore's office door. (3) In Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them (FB), Newt Scamander indicates that the "phoenix gains a XXXX rating not because it is aggressive, but because very few wizards have ever succeeded in domesticating it" (p. 32). Both Gryffindor and Dumbledore are described as uniquely powerful wizards, so it would stand to reason that if Dumbledore is one of the few wizards able to domesticate a phoenix, Gryffindor was likely to be another. (4) In FB, Scamander tells us that the "phoenix lives to an immense age as it can regenerate, bursting into flames when its body begins to fail and rising again from the ashes as a chick" (p. 32). Since phoenixes can resurrect themselves from the ashes of their elderly bodies, Fawkes could have been alive since Gryffindor's time. Moreover, the basilisk survived since Slytherin's time (until the end of Chamber of Secrets, of course!). (5) In legend, the griffin was believed to be the "adversary of serpent and basilisks, both of which were seen as embodiments of satanic demons" (from the What's in a Name website ? paraphrased from the Dictionary of Symbolism). This could be a parallel to Gryffindor's Fawkes and Slytherin's basilisk, and perhaps a clue to a possible good-against-evil fight between Gryffindor and Slytherin 1,000 years ago. Moreover, Fawkes helps Harry defeat the basilisk in the Chamber and phoenix song strengthens Harry both in the Chamber and in the graveyard in Goblet of Fire. Fawkes' strengthening of Harry's courage is consistent with what Scamander tells us in FB: "Phoenix song is magical; it is reputed to increase the courage of the pure of heart and to strike fear into the hearts of the impure" (p. 32). ~Phyllis From carrie525 at mybluelight.com Fri Mar 21 19:43:56 2003 From: carrie525 at mybluelight.com (Carrie S) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 11:43:56 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: book covers of OoTP References: Message-ID: <001301c2efe2$380b30a0$3f175142@net> No: HPFGUIDX 54070 Trond Michelsen wrote: > > So what do you guys think? Any guesses on what the doors and candles > > could mean? > > I think it almost looks like a scene from a ghost movie. Me, talking about the new OofP US cover..... As I look at this cover again....I dunno. *Are* those doors? Why are they up at the ceiling? I don't see a rail in front of them or really even a walkway. I don't see any doorknobs. This could just be the perspective of the picture, it could be a dream. I notice the candles appear to be transluscent, see through or whatever and are just floating around (well, the floating isn't a big deal at Hogwarts!) Anyway I keep thinking about the room in GofF where the champions are first called. He notices there are a lot of paintings on the wall. Could these be paintings that are blank or the people have left them? For some reason they have entrances behind them. Like to the common rooms. Anyhoo, it's just my idea. I do think this is maybe a mirror image or he is with ghosts because of the little candles that are behind his head. Carrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patricia at obscure.org Fri Mar 21 19:34:22 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 14:34:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: book covers of OoTP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54071 On Fri, 21 Mar 2003, grace701 wrote: > bboy_mn: > > >Isn't there an old fairytale about a hero who has to choose a door, > >and behind one door is the classic beautiful princess, and behind > >one of the other doors is a tiger, and I can't remember what's > >behind the others, but I seem to remember there were 7 doors? > > >Maybe it's a situation like that, choose the right door and save > >your friend; chooose the wrong door and be prepared to save your > >own life. > > I remember a story just like that Steve. For some reason Narnia > came to my head, but I have only read one book: The Lion, The Witch > and the Wardrobe, so I don't know if I'm correct. But I remember > it, too. Hmmm....where can we find out this information? It's "The Lady, or the Tiger?" by Frank R. Stockton. It's a classic, and forunately it is available online: http://www139.pair.com/read/Frank_R_Stockton/The_Lady_or_the_Tiger/The_Lady_or_the_Tiger_p1.html The most intriguing aspect of the story is that whatever choice the man makes, he loses, as does his beloved who knows which door the tiger waits behind. The question raised by the story is whether she would rather direct him to a quick but gruesome death or to marriage to another, which she would have to jealously witness for the rest of her days. One choice prolongs her suffering, the other compounds his. If OoP mirrors "The Lady, or the Tiger?" it will be interesting to see how that dilemma translates to Harry's life. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 19:50:58 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 19:50:58 -0000 Subject: House Cup versus Quidditch Cup In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54072 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, martin.soilleux-cardwell at a... wrote: > > Elisabeth asked: > > >Q2) Is Bill Weasley a charm breaker for Gringotts? > > Martin replied: > > A2) ... Bill is a cursebreaker for Gringotts bank and has worked > (works?) in Egypt although quite what requires his skills there > isn't made clear. My assumption with curses in Egypt leads me > to think of curses on mummies tombs which implies the Gringotts > goblins gain some of their investment capital through grave > robbing, which isn't a nice line of thought to pursue. > > Regards > Martin > bboy_mn: While I wouldn't put grave robbing past the Goblins, it's possible that the Goblins at Gringotts were hired by the Egyptian wizarding government to assist them in getting the treasure from cursed tombs, and Gringotts get a share of the booty for their assistance. As far as grave robbing, where do you think most of the native art/treasure exhibits come from? Just a thought. bboy_mn From aesob at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 19:56:09 2003 From: aesob at yahoo.com (Alex) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 19:56:09 -0000 Subject: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54073 Let's have that quote again: "The hottest day of the summer so far was drawing to a close and a drowsy silence lay over the large, square houses of Privet Drive. . . The only person left outside was a teenage boy who was lying flat on his back in a flowerbed outside number four." > Andrea: > > When I first read that paragraph, my first thought was that Harry > was > > out weeding the flower beds, and took a moment to rest because it's > so hot. finwitch: > Then he'd be right next to the flowerbed, not in it. It's not like > little flowers can keep up when someone's lying on them... But Harry > might have been weeding and then fainted. It's hot, he hasn't had > enough to drink (because those Dursleys won't let him to) and well, > maybe Voldemort killed someone again so that Harry's scar hurt him on > top of that... Now, me (aesob): I think it has to be Harry, it would be strange to have the book open with another teenage boy lying in the Dursley yard. Also, I don't think the book would open with Harry doing yardwork (though I could be wrong). Why is he outside on the hottest day of the summer when it seems that no one else is out? The mental image this conjures for me is a boy (I think it's got to be Harry) compressing the fresh, loose dirt of a raised flowerbed bordered by lawn, crushing Aunt Petunia's flowers, probably about to get yelled at. I think two details are very important: whoever it is, he's (1) lying on his back, (2) in a flowerbed. This is not a place where one would ordinarily lie down, so what put him there, his actions or someone else's? I guess we'll have to wait and see... ~~aesob From siriuskase at earthlink.net Fri Mar 21 20:01:48 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 20:01:48 -0000 Subject: OoTP book covers & interpretations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54074 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > I'll try to keep this at least _mostly_ related to canon, but as a graphic designer > who has plenty of art direction experience, that may slip out, so I'll apologize > in advance. > > First of all, I love the American cover much more than the UK ones, if for no > other reason that it gives us something to discuss! What can be said about a > phoenix rising from flames? Exactly, I was disappointed in the UK covers - nothing to talk about, we already knew there was a Phoenix > > The first thing I find interesting in the American cover is its blueness. Even the > flames of the candles are in blue tones, and the light they're producing is blue. > This either means that they are bewitched to give off a blue light (which is > possible since they're obviously magically floating) and the blue is an > indication of something. My take: the blue has something to do with ghosts. > JKR has said we will learn more about why people become ghosts, and > though I don't think Harry is a ghost here (as one other poster suggested), the > bluish light certainly lends a ghostly quality, so ghosts might very well figure > largely in the storyline. Also, look at the way "and the Order of the Phoenix" is > written: it has a ghostly, ethereal, almost translucent look, and the dotted part > of the 'i' trails just like the candles. Yes, the color scheme reminds me of the candles leading the way to the deathday party, they were cool, bluish, and creepy. > e reflections of the nearest flames. I see no nose or body parts. This brings > up a point that I don't think anyone else has made: wherever he is, Harry is > definitely alone. This could be important to the plot. Usually he always has > Ron or Hermione with him, so what is he doing alone? This isn't surprising, if this is the climaz of the book, he would be alone with bad guys or completely alone. That's the way it always has been. In SS, alone with Q, in CS, alone with TR and Ginny who is unconscious so in a sense, not there. Then, in PoA, all the good guys are unconscious and in GoF, he's in a crowd of deatheaters. No friends. So the fact that he is alone on the cover may be a clue that this is the climatic scene. > > This could mean another important plot development. As Harry matures, and > the world gets messier and divides into good and evil (hmmm, sounds like > current affairs) he's going to have to make some tough personal decisions, > and he won't always have his friends to rely on. It's part of growing up and > becoming a man. Our little boy is certainly growing up! Yep, he looks like the same kid, only older > > > bboy_mn: > > >The room does have a hazy dream-like quality that could be the > > >mirror reflection that others talked about or as I suggested, a > > >dream. The fact that the light trails from the candle flames point > > >in the opposite direction on the other side of the room does > > >strongly imply circular movement. It could be that the candles are > > >swirling around him. > > I don't think it's a dream unless a dream plays a very important role in the plot. > GrandPre, having read the entire book, and having chosen this scene to > illustrate for the cover, leads me to believe that whatever we're seeing is a > pivotal part of the story, probably real-life. It doesn't appear to be an amalgam > of the story, as was the case in PoA, as we're only seeing one thing. Dreams were important in GoF, but the climatic moment was never a dream, that would be new and different. However, the cover of GoF comes straight from Harry's imagination, it is the happy thought he imagined when he needed to deal with the dementer in the maze. It shows the three other champions alive but disappointed. It wasn't an amalgam either. > > I do agree that the candles are swirling. The trails close to Harry fall to the left, > but the smaller candles on the other side of the room fall to the right. > (particularly look closely at the candles near Harry's wand, where one even > appears to have a motion trail). > > I think the room is circular. The ceiling is too curved for it to be just a matter of > perspective. This also lends credence to the swirling idea...this would be > easier in a curved room. The question is why have a room with swirling > candles? It must be plot related! Reminds me of the Wizard of Oz, wasn't a whirling vortex important in that story? Rowling has previously alluded to other stories. > > I am even more intrigued thinking about what is on the back cover and the > spine (which is going to be pretty wide). Are we going to see down one of the > doorways? Maybe there will be something down there. The artwork has to > continue for some extent to the left, so what's down there?! We can only wait. The room appears to be the top room of a tower, Harry has just entered it, he glances bock at the door slaming shut behind him. It is a tall candle listweird room with a swirling vortex that may carry him up to the top if he isn't careful. There are some open doors, but it is dark out there. He may not be able to see anything to base his choice on. > > > bboy_mn: > > >Maybe it's a situation like that, choose the right door and save > > >your friend; chooose the wrong door and be prepared to save your > > >own life. > > This is a distinct possibility, but I think it's much more broad than that. JKR has > made mention that an important theme of the series is about the choices that > characters make, and I think that it is one of the most important lessons that > we can learn from Harry in the series, that the choices we all make have > immense consequences on our lives. Each door could represent a choice > (literally or metaphorically). Very remnicens of the Tiger and the Lady (where the hero must choose between 2 doors) or was that "Let's make a Deal!" (a favorite show of mine when I was very young) In both the old story and the TV show, the person has absolutely no information about what's behind the doors. That makes decision making simple but very stressful. > > Harry does not always make the perfect choice, and he does sometimes fly > straight in the face of rules (which is why a lot of "christians" seem to have > problems with the series), but he's a kid, growing and learning, and his > choices always result in him doing the "good" thing. Harry may not have > respect for rules, but his motivation is always to further the good side. But he judges by his own standards, not his community, parent, church, or school. He wants to do the right thing, but he insists on also thinking for himself without regard to what someone else might want him to do. Do you see how that can be a problem? > > Another odd thing I notice is the reflection of the candles in the doors (or we're > seeing candles through the doors), as though they have glass in them. This is > odd, as it leads me to believe that Harry can see into the doorways and make > an informed decision about which door to choose. Oh, maybe he can. That would be better, being forced to make an uninformed decision doesn't demonstrate much about a person's character. Or he could make no decision, just stand there in the swirling breeze, but that doesn't seem much like Harry. Given a choice, he prefers to do something rather than just stand there. > > Also, as an aside, I don't think Harry looks at all like Dan Radcliffe...it looks > like a rapidly maturing version of the same boy we saw on the GoF cover. He > is thinner, and obviously growing taller and more wiry. At age 15, boys are at > their most awkward...growing rapidly upward but not filling in yet (unless > you're shaped like Crabbe and Goyle). I agree, this is the same kid from GoF's cover, just older. > > ~~aesob sirius kase From siriuskase at earthlink.net Fri Mar 21 20:09:48 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 20:09:48 -0000 Subject: This can't be the chamberpot room Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54075 It is highly speculated that the chamberpot room would be very important in this story. But putting Rowlings remarks about Harry returning to a special room with magical qualities together with Dumbledore's joke just doesn't make sense. I mean nothing she says implies that these are the same room. And now we see a "third" room that people are trying to tie in somehow. In my opinion, there are three completely separate rooms: chamberpot room, room that Harry returns to, and the ghostly candle room on the OoP cover. I don't see any reason to think that any of them are the same room. If Harry has ever been to this round lit with dark candles room before, it isn't mentioned in the books, and I sure don't see any chamberpots. And Harry can't return to the chamberpot room anyway, he didn't go there, Dumbledore did and Harry only knows about it from Dumbledore's remark. QED, three separate rooms. But I do want to see the Chamberpot room, it would be a nice change from visiting a girls bathroom, that gag is getting old. Sirius Kase From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 20:40:55 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 20:40:55 -0000 Subject: Choices (WAS: book covers of OoTP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54076 Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: > It's "The Lady, or the Tiger?" by Frank R. Stockton. The most > intriguing aspect of the story is that whatever choice the man > makes, he loses, as does his beloved who knows which door the tiger > waits behind. Now me: Thank you for that reference. The many doors on the US OoP jacket and this reference have me recalling Dumbledore's words to Harry at the end of CoS: "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." In many instances over the course of the first four books, Harry has been faced with choosing good over evil in the face of temptation. Mary Grand Pre's cover suggests to me that Harry will once again be faced with such a choice in OoP. It's interesting, however, that all of the doors are somewhat ajar. Assuming that it's not just an artistic interpretation and it truly reflects the plot, perhaps this suggests that Harry will get a glimpse of what lies behind each door before he has to make up his mind as to which door to choose. Which, of course, could either make his decision easier or more difficult. ~Phyllis From tzipporah42 at hotmail.com Fri Mar 21 20:03:51 2003 From: tzipporah42 at hotmail.com (Sarah) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 20:03:51 -0000 Subject: Godric/Fawkes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54077 Martin wrote: "Interesting idea. Hmmm.... This raises issues of how much of the animal does a wizard become when in animagus form. I presume that in animal form the human mind is still wholly active (to be able to work the spell that turns him/her back into human form if nothing else). But what powers of the animal does the wizard have? Clearly an animagus bird would be able to fly, an animagus fish to breathe under water (Krum-shark in GoF) but what other powers? Could an animagus phoenix effectively become immortal if s/he stayed in phoenix form for ever?" Me: Good question. I think it's at least possible. It's the perfect way to look after his school forever. And even if Godric is no longer able to change back into human form he is still able to affect events, like bringing Harry the Sorting Hat, etc. In that sense he acts very much as Dumbledore does: never directly intervening but providing Harry with the tools he needs to face down the latest evil. That would partly explain the close connection Fawkes and Dumbledore share. As for animal/wizard powers bleeding into each other, I seem to recall that Sirius retained some of his canine qualities while in human form, though I can't back that up without the book here with me. Thanks for replying! :) ~Sarah From jmholmes at kjsl.com Fri Mar 21 20:23:54 2003 From: jmholmes at kjsl.com (slytherincess) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 20:23:54 -0000 Subject: This Can't Be the Chamberpot Room Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54078 I keep wondering if it represents Trelawney's Divination tower. Trelawney loves candles. And POA introduced the subject of the first prophecy she made, which we do not yet know the details of. I think we may learn at least part of Trelawney's first accurate prediction in OotP, though. Just my two knuts. (`'?.?(`'?.? ?.?'?)?.?'?) ???`?..*Julie*..???`? (?.?'(?.?'? `'?.?)`'?.?) ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* mailto:jmholmes at kjsl.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/slytherincess ~*~*~*~*~**~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From siriuskase at earthlink.net Fri Mar 21 20:55:12 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 20:55:12 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Cockroach Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54079 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "happyduck1979" wrote: > Hi! I know that none of you have ever seen me before, but I have > been lurking here for a while now. I love the books (and the movies > although not nearly as much) and recently convinced my husband to > read them as well. As such I am rereading them myself. Thanks for joining us. We all love the books (there's another list for movie people) and are glad to have you and your husband at the party. Since Cockroach Clusters gross you out, why don't you try one of these Canary Creams. Or maybe just your husband if he hasn't got that far into the story. I was lying > in bed last night and I came up with a theory that I had not seen > posted before and I was wondering what other people think of it. > > Many people have questioned whether or not Dumbledore is an > animagnus. I figure that since he taught transfiguration before > McGonagall the chances are probably pretty good that he can transform > into something. I agree that he must be an animagus. I just can't accept that such a powerful wizard, a headmaster who once once the transfig teaher wouldn't be. > There are a few clues to this idea in the book, but > they are not anything big. > > Let's start with insects habbits. We know that Dumbledore found his > way to a magic room full of beautiful chamberpots. This would fit as > a room that would appeal to a cockroach. They tend to live in > rather distastefull locations. They also chase down sugar which > *might* explain Dumbledore taste for sweets (although I have to > wonder if that means that McGonagle enjoys the taste of meow-mix). Witch cats prefer birds and rats, at least Crookshanks seems to. Don't know about Mrs. Norris, but in that big old castle, there should be plenty to eat even if it's just kitchen scraps. > > Now it is that taste for sweets that seems to provide passwords for > Dumbledore's office. Is there anything that sounds more disgusting > then cockrach clusters? There has to me more to it then just a > wizarding treat that we have not yet come accross anywhere else. I took it as a clue that Rowling was a Monty Python fan, a fact that she later confirmed. That is areally nasty sketch about the sweets (including Cockroach Clusters). but don't watch it if you couldn't handle Ron puking slugs, you won't be able to handle that guy who keeps throwing up. Or maybe Dumbledore is the MP fan? He keeps up with Muggle culture. > > Now, I also think that there might be some truth to the idea that > people who can transform into animals can recognize other people who > can transform into animals. I think that Lupin might know > Dumbledore's secret. He might even think that Dumbledore *was* aware > of what happened all those years ago in the Shreiking Shack. He > would have been small enough to get into the hole under the whomping > willow. This would explain why the boggart changed from a sphere > (the full moon) to a cockroach. He may think it is funny that > Dumbledore has this absurd alter ego that no one knows about that he > discovered *becasue* of his issue with the full moon and the fact > that he transforms into another type of animal. My theory is that he transforms into a bumblebee. That doesn't fit in with his love of muggle sweets, bees prefer nector, but it does explain how he can get around Hogwarts unseen. A bumblebee in the dark would be invisible even without a cloak. Do you think Lupin is scared of cockroaches? I don't know why that cockroach appeared, could be someone else in the room or maybe the bogart was just confused. Rowling doesn't provide enough information for me to speculate further. > > "happyduck1979" And welcome to the group, I like ducks, are you an animagi? sirius kase From loonyloopyrjl at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 19:26:10 2003 From: loonyloopyrjl at yahoo.com (loonyloopyrjl) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 19:26:10 -0000 Subject: book covers of OoTP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54080 Phyllis wrote: As for the US cover - is there anywhere in canon that says that Harry is left-handed? Grand Pre has Harry holding his wand in his left hand. Richelle wrote: It's in canon that Harry is right handed. In Olivander's selecting his wand, Olivander asks which is his wand arm, Harry says, well, he's right handed. Sophie wrote: Looking at the other US cover, Harry is holding the wand in his left hand also on GoF, and catching the Snitch with his lefthand in SS. The chapter illistrations also show him favoring his left hand, while most other people are shown using their right hand. It all seems too deliberate to me. aesob/Alex wrote: ... cover art is not art-directed by JKR, ... GrandPre is only interpreting what she reads into something for us to see. Just because Harry is holding his wand in his left hand doesn't mean that he's looking in a mirror or that he's suddenly left-handed. GrandPre probably chose to put the wand there because it just looked better that way. Artist's choice doesn't necessarily fit into canon. Me: I agree with aesob/Alex. The backcover (?) for PoA shows a partial, not full, moon and a wolf (okay, maybe it's a dog). So there's a possible error. On the GoF cover, Harry is holding an Egg in his other arm, so maybe that's why he switched his wand from one hand to the other for this "pose." As for the PS/SS cover, isn't Harry clutching his broom with the other hand? I am right-handed and I throw with the right hand and catch with the left hand, so the cover of PS/SS makes sense to me. IIRC, in there's a little chapter picture of Harry conjuring the Patronus with his left hand, which contradicts canon. It's all artistic choice. Loony Loopy, who says all bets are off if Harry IS holding something plot-revealing in his right hand for this scene. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 21:27:47 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 21:27:47 -0000 Subject: This can't be the chamberpot room In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54081 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "siriuskase" wrote: > It is highly speculated that the chamberpot room would be very > important in this story. But putting Rowlings remarks about Harry > returning to a special room with magical qualities together with > Dumbledore's joke just doesn't make sense. ...edited... > > QED, three separate rooms. But I do want to see the Chamberpot room, > it would be a nice change from visiting a girls bathroom, that gag is > getting old. > > Sirius Kase bboy_mn: for a long discussion of the 'mystery' room, go back about a week to a long discussion on this subject. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/53714 where it is noted that the 'magic room' is not a room that Harry is returning to or even necessarily a room that Harry knows about. It is a room to which JKR would go which has magical properties that Harry hasn't discovered yet. Most possible rooms are named in this thread. bboy_mn From kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au Fri Mar 21 21:26:56 2003 From: kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au (kenney) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 21:26:56 -0000 Subject: Covers a fraud Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54082 It is and has been my belief for some time now, that book five will not be called "Order of Pheonix". This has all been an elaborate practical joke on JK's behalf to trick us into discussing theories that are way off track. The covers seemed rushed. At least the UK version does. The Adult version is different to our adult editions which have a coloured banner superimposed on a b/w photo Secondly, MGP usually has more detailed covers for the readers to deal with. There was so much more on her GOF cover. It seems I am dissapointed. The cover seems too simple Are they trying to trick us or am i just crazy? Mr Harry Potter's Key- reading a chapter a day till D day. From artsylynda at aol.com Fri Mar 21 21:28:31 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 16:28:31 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Godric/Fawkes Message-ID: <1e.d30ab12.2bacddff@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54083 Phyllis: > I think there is strong support in canon for the theory that Fawkes > was Godric Gryffindor's phoenix when Gryffindor was alive: > > (1) Fawkes is scarlet and gold, the colors of Gryffindor House. > Harry's wand contains one of Fawkes' feathers as its magical core, > and red and gold sparks fly from the end of his wand the first time > he waves it. > > (2) Fawkes lives in Dumbledore's office along with the Sorting Hat > and sword that we are told once belonged to Gryffindor. The large > number of items in this office that were previously owned by > Gryffindor also suggests that Dumbledore's office was once > Gryffindor's office. This is further supported by the griffin-shaped > knocker on Dumbledore's office door. > > (3) In Fantastic Beasts &Where to Find Them (FB), Newt Scamander > indicates that the "phoenix gains a XXXX rating not because it is > aggressive, but because very few wizards have ever succeeded in > domesticating it" (p. 32). Both Gryffindor and Dumbledore are > described as uniquely powerful wizards, so it would stand to reason > that if Dumbledore is one of the few wizards able to domesticate a > phoenix, Gryffindor was likely to be another. > > I have often thought it quite interesting that Fawkes takes such a shine to Harry, not just when Harry is loyal to Dumbledore in the Chamber of Secrets, but when Harry's in the office. Fawkes doesn't climb into just anyone's lap -- but he climbs into Harry's. I think Harry will be Fawkes next master after Dumbledore, which makes me wonder how the haughty Hedwig will take it when there's a phoenix in Harry's life? Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 21:39:08 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 21:39:08 -0000 Subject: OoTP book covers & interpretations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54084 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > I'll try to keep this at least _mostly_ related to canon, but as a graphic designer > who has plenty of art direction experience, that may slip out, so I'll apologize > in advance. > Annemehr: Don't apologize, that's a good thing! I think your analysis of the cover design is the best yet. > The first thing I find interesting in the American cover is its blueness. Even the > flames of the candles are in blue tones, and the light they're producing is blue. > This either means that they are bewitched to give off a blue light (which is > possible since they're obviously magically floating) and the blue is an > indication of something. My take: the blue has something to do with ghosts. > Annemehr: Possibly. It comes to my mind that magical flames seem to come in very many colors. Off the top of my head, I can think of the green Floo flames, the black and purple (is that right?) flames at the entrances of the room that the potion logic puzzle was in in PS/SS, and the blue flames that Hermione knows how to conjure. These particular flames do have a ghostly feel to them, though. > The other possibility is that Ms. GrandPre chose to illustrate the cover in blue > tones to acheive a cold, dreary or spookier feel, and that it has nothing to do > with the plot...but I don't think so. Annemehr: Agreed. She seems to always be able to use the elements of the story to achieve the effect she wants without adding things in. I'm betting this was either explicitly in the book or else a perfectly good interpretation of a less specific description of an eerie room. > As for the right hand/left hand thing, we have to keep in mind that the cover art > is not art-directed by JKR, and that GrandPre is only interpreting what she > reads into something for us to see. Just because Harry is holding his wand in > his left hand doesn't mean that he's looking in a mirror or that he's suddenly > left-handed. GrandPre probably chose to put the wand there because it just > looked better that way. Artist's choice doesn't necessarily fit into canon. > Annemehr: She just always seems to draw him left-handed. Besides the GoF cover (and did someone mention the cover of PS/SS?), I've found another example -- in the chapter illustration for Ch. 12 of PoA, Harry is shown wielding his wand in his left hand. Perhaps Ms. Grand Pre is left-handed herself and just naturally draws people this way? > Another odd thing I notice is the reflection of the candles in the doors (or we're > seeing candles through the doors), as though they have glass in them. This is > odd, as it leads me to believe that Harry can see into the doorways and make > an informed decision about which door to choose. Annemehr: Perhaps the doors are of dark wood and highly polished. If so, then the candles would certainly reflect well in such a dark room. However, there seems to be another, stronger source of light coming from the upper right. It looks like moonlight, but that would mess up the symmetry of the room by neccessitating a window there. It *could* be a very bright ghost that Harry is just catching sight of over his shoulder -- that would fit in with the ghostly atmosphere. > > Also, as an aside, I don't think Harry looks at all like Dan Radcliffe...it looks > like a rapidly maturing version of the same boy we saw on the GoF cover. Annemehr: This is true. Dan Radcliffe has much thicker eyebrows and an *extremely* straight nose. Ms. Grand Pre's Harry has always had that nose like a ski-jump. I am glad to see him looking fifteen. I don't know why, but am very much enjoying the fact that we get to watch Harry grow up as opposed to having a series of books where the hero stays basically the same. Incidentally, this image of Harry seems to harken back to the ones on SS, CoS and PoA, although slightly less cartoonish. This contrasts with the Harry on the cover of GoF who looks exactly like a guy I went to college with. The GoF Harry is done much more realistically, and always evoked a sense of poignancy in me -- here's Harry, happy to be in the WW and doing his best in the TWT even though he didn't even enter it -- all goodwill and innocence -- and upon reading we find out what Voldemort does to him. It's a very full interpretation of the book, in my opinion. It makes me hope the same for this new cover. Annemehr From siriuskase at earthlink.net Fri Mar 21 21:42:16 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 21:42:16 -0000 Subject: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: <19b.124a4a90.2bab3f94@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54085 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, artsylynda at a... wrote: > Greicy: > > > Has anyone noticed that the quote suggest that Harry, or whomever, > > wasn't alone at first, but that he was left alone? As if there was a > > gathering outside and everyone decided to go inside. > > > > "The only person left outside was a teenage boy who was lying flat on > > his back in a flowerbed outside number four." > > > > the paragraph says the day is drawing to a close. His being left alone > outside to me means everyone else has gone in to dinner, TV, whatever > *family* activities they choose. Harry has no "family" activities to join > in, so he's left alone outside -- he wouldn't want to join the Dursleys in > any family activity even if they wanted him to. At least that's how I read > it. I can see him stretched out there, gangly long legs and arms, hands > behind his head, hair blowing around in the breeze, the red sunset reflected > in his glasses, or maybe the first gleam of moonlight reflected there -- a > peaceful scene until Aunt Petunia sees he's in the flowerbed! This is close to what I imagine. This is a day when no one in there right mind would want to be outside. But Harry would rather be outside than in the house with the Dursleys and whoever might be with them. Or maybe he was ordered to weed the gardens and would be scolded if he went in before the job was done. So he's taking a rest or fainted. Fainting would explain being in the flower bed instead of the grass. Then again, > maybe it's Ron and he apparated by accident and landed there?? heehee (yeah, > I know underage wizards aren't supposed to apparate. . .) > Now I really like this idea, seems like something he would do. > > Lynda > * * * > "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA sirius kase From siriuskase at earthlink.net Fri Mar 21 21:52:12 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 21:52:12 -0000 Subject: Godric Gryffindor from Shropshire? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54086 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tammy Bianchi" wrote: > >From: "Maria Gromova" > > > > You know, I have a distinct impression Godric Gryffindor was from > > Shropshire. There is a place called Godric's Ford in Ellis Peters' > > historical mystery novels. Maybe she made this name up, but Shropshire is > > also a moorland county, and the Sorting Hat's song says Gryffindor was > 'from > > wild moor'. Sounds like Shropshire to me. Maybe this is where his home > > (Godric's Hollow) was. > > Maria. > > > There is no reason to assume that Hagrid flew directly from anywhere to anywhere else. considiering it took him 24 hours to get from Godric's Hollow to Little Whinging, he probably didn't fly straight and he probably stopped off somewhere as well (to feed and diaper Harry, or rest himself, or just to hide). Rowling grew up near Bristor, that's probably why it was mentioned. I mean, Hagrid doesn't use Mapquest, does he? > > Maria, > > Since I am not very familiar with the geography of the UK, how does this > location fit in with Hagrid's flight the night Harry's parents were killed. > I know that there is much controversy over the missing time from when Harry > was rescued till he was dropped off at the Dursley's. > > Tammy From mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com Fri Mar 21 22:10:23 2003 From: mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com (Edward Post) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 17:10:23 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: book covers of OoTP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54087 on the Right handed v. Left handed discussion: > >Phyllis wrote: >As for the US cover - is there anywhere in canon that says that Harry >is left-handed? Grand Pre has Harry holding his wand in his left hand. > >Richelle wrote: >It's in canon that Harry is right handed. In Olivander's selecting his >wand, Olivander asks which is his wand arm, Harry says, well, he's >right handed. > >Sophie wrote: >Looking at the other US cover, Harry is holding the wand in his left >hand also on GoF, and catching the Snitch with his lefthand in SS. >The chapter illistrations also show him favoring his left hand, while >most other people are shown using their right hand. It all seems too >deliberate to me. > >aesob/Alex wrote: >... cover art is not art-directed by JKR, ... GrandPre is only >interpreting what she reads into something for us to see. Just because >Harry is holding his wand in his left hand doesn't mean that he's >looking in a mirror or that he's suddenly left-handed. GrandPre >probably chose to put the wand there because it just looked better >that way. Artist's choice doesn't necessarily fit into canon. > >Loony Loopy wrote: >I agree with aesob/Alex. The backcover (?) for PoA shows a partial, >not full, moon and a wolf (okay, maybe it's a dog). So there's a >possible error. On the GoF cover, Harry is holding an Egg in his >other arm, so maybe that's why he switched his wand from one hand to >the other for this "pose." As for the PS/SS cover, isn't Harry >clutching his broom with the other hand? I am right-handed and I >throw with the right hand and catch with the left hand, so the cover >of PS/SS makes sense to me. IIRC, in there's a little chapter picture >of Harry conjuring the Patronus with his left hand, which contradicts >canon. It's all artistic choice. > >Loony Loopy, >who says all bets are off if Harry IS holding something plot-revealing >in his right hand for this scene. > > Now I, Mr. Ed writes: I'm in 'the cover is a mirror image' crowd. Take a look at the scar on Harry's head and the representation of that scar (presumably) on the P in Potter in the title. They're mirror images of each other. Mr. Ed _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 21 22:22:58 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 22:22:58 -0000 Subject: Godric Gryffindor from Shropshire? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54088 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, martin.soilleux-cardwell at a... wrote: > > Maria wrote: > > >> You know, I have a distinct impression Godric Gryffindor was > >> from Shropshire. There is a place called Godric's Ford [rest snipped] > Martin: > > Shropshire is a large county on the Welsh borders. > I know Shropshire intimately and it isn't a county I think of as > having much moorland. > If you want 'moorland' then more central and northern parts of > England such as Derbyshire, western and northern Yorkshire, > eastern Lancashire (all on the Pennine Hills) and areas of > Cumbria, Northumberland (towards theScottish border) are > all 'moorland' regions. > Regards > Martin > Pip: There is also the West Country (the generic name for Devon, Cornwall and Somerset). This area is full of moors: Dartmoor, Exmoor, and Bodmin Moor. Travelling from the West Country via Bristol would make perfect sense if Hagrid was worried about getting lost. All he'd have to do is follow the motorway lights - up the M5, turn right at Bristol and then follow the M4 until you hit the M25 orbital motorway around London. Follow the M25 lights to the right, and you'll find yourself in Surrey. It's quite difficult to work out which end of the country Godric Gryffindor came from. St. Godric is associated with County Durham (North East). On the other hand, Godric was a very common name in Cornwall and Devon in the 11th Century. On the web, you can see an extract from the Domesday book. http://west-penwith.org.uk/just.htm This refers to a 'Godric' having owned 120 acres near St Just in Cornwall when Edward the Confessor was king (pre 1066). Other Godrics turn up in other land deeds - for example, as a landowner in Tiverton, Devon. http://west-penwith.org.uk/just.htm Again, it's pre-Domesday. So I'd go for Godric Gryffindor being from the West Country. That would account for the name, the moor and Hagrid's Bristol fly past. Incidentally, is he supposed to be 'Gryffindor' or 'Gryffin d'Or'? My CSE French (failed) would make this Godric of the Gold Gryffin. Pip From lupinesque at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 22:50:30 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 14:50:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Book cover--various Message-ID: <20030321225030.90573.qmail@web20304.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54089 Devika wrote: >Harry looks so much older! I think MG is doing this deliberately. He looks older in each one, IMO. Maybe seeing the cover is why I dreamed last night that I was kissing a 15- or 16-year-old Harry passionately [she said, blushing]? I was 16 in the dream, so don't call the cops. I agree with Anne Mehr that while she still has a very stylized way of drawing people--not like, say, the Harrys on the UK CS-PA-GF covers, which are quite realistic--there's a jump in realism from PA to GF. That might reflect a change in her style or her take on the books rather than a deliberate progression, since I don't see much difference among SS, CS and PA in this regard; all three are quite cartoonish. I think this one takes a further step beyond GF; it's largely the monochromatic blue that makes it grittier than GF. I'm pleased that she's continuing her trend of putting the "and the _______" in some kind of appropriate script. Patricia wrote: >Previous covers have not portrayed a single >particular scene from the book. Rather, Mary GrandPre >in the past has combined significant events >and characters from many parts of the book. Well, yes and no. CS and PA definitely show precise moments from the book: the flight out of the Chamber and the rescue of Sirius, respectively. And the other two, while an amalgamation, do portray real moments. There's enough precedent for us to pick this one apart for clues about a canon event. >Melissa (who was obsessing over not being able to see >the front of his robes to learn if there was a >prefects badge there.) Hee! Well, MG doesn't pay much attention to proper costume details. She keeps putting him in a cape rather than a robe, for starters. What I'm loving most about this cover is the ambiguous expression on Harry's face. That combined with the movement in the room (the blowing candles) and the fact that he is in mid-turn suggests a moment where one response flows into another, as if he is turning in response to a sound or the breath of wind and the reaction to whatever is there has yet to pass over his face. Or of course he could just be checking that no one is following him, or that someone who is supposed to be following him is . . . Amy who never got to do this with the first four because she was too busy leaping into the text to meditate on the cover, and is having a *lot* of fun ===== Naturally, the common people don't want war. . . But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along. . . . Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country. --Hermann Goering, 1946 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From shufan90 at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 21 06:08:44 2003 From: shufan90 at sbcglobal.net (shufan) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 22:08:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Book Covers: Image In The Glasses (WAS A better site for book covers You can see the image in the glasses) In-Reply-To: <20030321053514.54361.qmail@web14202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030321060844.46456.qmail@web80310.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54090 I love all of the covers. Just when I promised myself to concentrate on my academics and stop speculating on things HP. I purchased OtP online so it would arrive after my summer session. Anyway, it is probably just my eyes but the image in the glasses looks like the face of girl. Ginny? I am now scheduling my vaction to have time to read! j __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3079700.4403303.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3079700.4403303.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250; ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aesob at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 22:53:10 2003 From: aesob at yahoo.com (Alex) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 22:53:10 -0000 Subject: book covers of OoTP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54091 > on the Right handed v. Left handed discussion: > > > >Phyllis wrote: > >As for the US cover - is there anywhere in canon that says that Harry > >is left-handed? Grand Pre has Harry holding his wand in his left hand. > > > >Richelle wrote: > >It's in canon that Harry is right handed. In Olivander's selecting his > >wand, Olivander asks which is his wand arm, Harry says, well, he's > >right handed. > > > >Sophie wrote: > >Looking at the other US cover, Harry is holding the wand in his left > >hand also on GoF, and catching the Snitch with his lefthand in SS. > >The chapter illistrations also show him favoring his left hand, while > >most other people are shown using their right hand. It all seems too > >deliberate to me. > > > >aesob/Alex wrote: > >... cover art is not art-directed by JKR, ... GrandPre is only > >interpreting what she reads into something for us to see. Just because > >Harry is holding his wand in his left hand doesn't mean that he's > >looking in a mirror or that he's suddenly left-handed. GrandPre > >probably chose to put the wand there because it just looked better > >that way. Artist's choice doesn't necessarily fit into canon. > > > >Loony Loopy wrote: > >I agree with aesob/Alex. The backcover (?) for PoA shows a partial, > >not full, moon and a wolf (okay, maybe it's a dog). So there's a > >possible error. On the GoF cover, Harry is holding an Egg in his > >other arm, so maybe that's why he switched his wand from one hand to > >the other for this "pose." As for the PS/SS cover, isn't Harry > >clutching his broom with the other hand? I am right-handed and I > >throw with the right hand and catch with the left hand, so the cover > >of PS/SS makes sense to me. IIRC, in there's a little chapter picture > >of Harry conjuring the Patronus with his left hand, which contradicts > >canon. It's all artistic choice. > > > Now I, Mr. Ed writes: > I'm in 'the cover is a mirror image' crowd. Take a look at the scar on > Harry's head and the representation of that scar (presumably) on the P in > Potter in the title. They're mirror images of each other. aesob again: I have to disagree. The Harry Potter logotype has always looked that way, and Ms. GrandPre has always portrayed Harry's scar zagging the opposite way. Look at the covers! I just looked at them, and on the new OoP cover, Harry's scar is represented the same way as it always has: at the end, it zags to the left. If it were mirrored, it would be opposite. Plus, it's just silly, why would Harry be turning around and looking at himself in a mirror? The simplest explanation is usually the correct one. ~~aesob From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 22:54:05 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 22:54:05 -0000 Subject: Who is the boy?/ Harry's Funeral In-Reply-To: <005001c2eee6$e95cff70$f25d70d1@idoac3o594gxzp> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54092 > Grace said: > > >Has anyone noticed that the quote suggest that Harry, or >whomever, > >wasn't alone at first, but that he was left alone? As if >there was a > >gathering outside and everyone decided to go inside. > > >"The only person left outside was a teenage boy who was >lying flat on > >his back in a flowerbed outside number four." How about this: The book opens with a third person description (no mention of Harry) of a group of people (perhaps including Hermione, Ron, Dumbledore, Sirius, etc.) standing huddled in a circle on the front lawn of the Dursely house. They are standing tightly together, so we can't see what they are standing around. They look sad, Hermione is crying, and they exchange murmured phrases. One by one they disperse... and... "The only person left outside was a teenage boy who was lying flat on his back in a flowerbed outside number four." Harry's eyes flash open as this image wakes him from sleeping, and he tries to shake off the dream/nightmare he's been having for the last month; there are different variations of it (location, people in it), but it always ends the same way, with his funeral. Considering GoF ended with Harry having his most extreme Voldemort encounter and also watching a friend die, I don't think it would be a stretch for him to have nightmares about it. This also sets up Harry to be in a situation where he can replay the events (for plot recap, and to show us how he's been emotionally dealing with the events), as well as showing that Harry's been thinking about death. (Didn't JKR say that Harry was going to be examining death in a new way? Makes sense to me that part of this theme could be established early on.) Just a thought. - Nobody's Rib From john at sunstoneonline.com Fri Mar 21 22:07:32 2003 From: john at sunstoneonline.com (John Hatch) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 15:07:32 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Covers a fraud References: Message-ID: <000a01c2eff6$45d69800$0500a8c0@sunstone77nev7> No: HPFGUIDX 54093 Kenney writes: It is and has been my belief for some time now, that book five will not be called "Order of Pheonix". This has all been an elaborate practical joke on JK's behalf to trick us into discussing theories that are way off track. The covers seemed rushed. At least the UK version does. The Adult version is different to our adult editions which have a coloured banner superimposed on a b/w photo It seems I am dissapointed. The cover seems too simple Are they trying to trick us or am i just crazy? ********************* John responds: I don't think you're crazy, but I also don't think this is a joke or elaborate hoax to throw us off track. Major publishing firms like Scholastic and Bloomsbury just don't pull stunts like that. That's not to say that JKR couldn't change her mind about the title, or decide she hates the artwork and call for another round of proposals. Being disappointed is another matter entirely. At first I wasn't sure if I liked the cover, but it's really grown on me. I do love the color. Looking at the spines of the first four, especially books 1-3, they look very similar to me. But it does seem surprisingly simple when the previous four books had random clues everywhere. GoF even had Voldemort's rebirth cauldron on the inside flap! I actually didn't like CoS artwork because it gives away half the plot! You read the supposed "mystery" of what the Basilisk is, then look at the cover. Gee, I wonder what a Basilisk is . . . I think it might have something to do with snakes. I think that you could argue that this cover has been "affected" by the success and overwhelming anticipation of the series in ways that the previous covers were not. It does seem to say, "We don't want to give _anything_ away!" John This message was checked by MailScan for WorkgroupMail. www.workgroupmail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cbdm1121 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 21:47:23 2003 From: cbdm1121 at yahoo.com (Tom Marvolo Riddle) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 21:47:23 -0000 Subject: Cover's a fraud In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54094 wrote: > It is and has been my belief for some time now, that book five will > not be called "Order of Pheonix". > > This has all been an elaborate practical joke on JK's behalf to trick > us into discussing theories that are way off track. > > The covers seemed rushed. At least the UK version does. > > The Adult version is different to our adult editions which have a > coloured banner superimposed on a b/w photo > > Secondly, MGP usually has more detailed covers for the readers to > deal with. There was so much more on her GOF cover. > > It seems I am dissapointed. > > The cover seems too simple > > Are they trying to trick us or am i just crazy? Hi. I'm Zach. I've been watching this group for a while but this is my first post. I used to think the Order of Phoenix was just a working title too. After all, book 4 was call HP and the Doomspell Tournament for the longest time. But I was just at Border's last night and there were posters, book warks, cutout displays, everything you could possibly think of that said "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix." When Book four was coming out, the promotional material just said, Harry Potter, year 4. If you listen to the audio book Jim Dale does (at least the early version) he doesn't even give a title, he just says that it's the fourth book in the Harry Potter series. My point is, I doubt Scholastic, Bloomsbury, etc., would spend this much money and time printing up promo materials with a specific title in them if the title were going to be changed at the last minute. As for the design of the books, I think that MGP has made a departure from the more colorful covers of earlier books because Harry Potter is moving away from the children's book genre. As for making us crazy, well, after reading the posts in here for the past week or so, I've come to the conclusion that everyone in the group (myself included) is quite crazy on their own and need no help from JKR or any publishing company. Slight side note: The only thing I see reflected in Harry's glasses are the lights of the candles he's facing. Did I miss something? Zach From huntleyl at mssm.org Fri Mar 21 23:23:15 2003 From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 18:23:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoTP book covers & interpretations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54095 Okay..here are some quotes that are loosely connected to what I want to talk about...in no particular order: > bboy_mn: > >Maybe it's a situation like that, choose the right door and save > >your friend; chooose the wrong door and be prepared to save your > >own life. aesob: > I do agree that the candles are swirling. The trails close to Harry fall to the left, > but the smaller candles on the other side of the room fall to the right. > (particularly look closely at the candles near Harry's wand, where one even > appears to have a motion trail). > > I think the room is circular. The ceiling is too curved for it to be just a matter of > perspective. This also lends credence to the swirling idea...this would be > easier in a curved room. The question is why have a room with swirling > candles? It must be plot related! Siriuskase: >Reminds me of the Wizard of Oz, wasn't a whirling vortex important in >that story? Rowling has previously alluded to other stories. >Very remnicens of the Tiger and the Lady (where the hero must choose >between 2 doors) or was that "Let's make a Deal!" (a favorite show of >mine when I was very young) In both the old story and the TV show, >the person has absolutely no information about what's behind the >doors. That makes decision making simple but very stressful. Alright. I haven't been following this thread very closely, and I'm sure someone has already brought this up (if so, I apologize profusely), but what do you guys think all this has to do with the JKR interview in which she claims that, "Harry's horizons are literally and metaphorically widening as he grows older. But also there are places in the world that I've been planning for so long and thinking about for so long that we haven't yet explored, and it's great fun. That will happen in book 5, too; we go into a whole new area, physically, an area you've never seen before, a magical world." Traditionally, you need...you know, some sort of portal, don't you, to get into a magic world? When I saw the US cover, my first thought was that the room must be a sort of hub - all the doors lead to different places (one to this "magical world" and perhaps others to other magical worlds or important places in *this* world...Godric's Hollow or the Ministry perhaps? ^_^). In reference to the spinning candles and tornado of the Wizard of Oz...perhaps a "whirling vortex" is deemed somehow necessary to the type of travel require to enter magical worlds - or even just to travel over great distances (i.e. Godric's Hollow)? What do you guys think? Laura (who is very sorry if this has already been brought up and would check the archives if her computer wasn't so slow) P.S. About the scar being a mirror image of the bolt in the "P" of Potter...it's always been like that. From mrsbonsai at charter.net Fri Mar 21 23:40:46 2003 From: mrsbonsai at charter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 23:40:46 -0000 Subject: OoTP book covers & interpretations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54096 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Laura Ingalls Huntley" wrote: > Laura > P.S. About the scar being a mirror image of the bolt in the "P" of > Potter...it's always been like that. Me: I'm not certain, but I believe you're referring to my comment about the scar on Harry's head (not in the P) where I asked if someone thought that was mirror image? Julie From karenwickersham at ameritech.net Sat Mar 22 00:12:48 2003 From: karenwickersham at ameritech.net (karywick) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 00:12:48 -0000 Subject: Who is the boy? (Dudley atHogwarts?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54097 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > > Then he'd be right next to the flowerbed, not in it. It's not like > little flowers can keep up when someone's lying on them... But Harry > might have been weeding and then fainted. It's hot, he hasn't had > enough to drink (because those Dursleys won't let him to) and well, > maybe Voldemort killed someone again so that Harry's scar hurt him on top of that... > > Dudley - well, Dudley wouldn't have been *left* anywhere... Seems > like Harry's most likely person it is... Hopefully Sirius? gets to > him before Dursleys... > Hmm.. . .Maybe Mr.Crabbe, Mr. Goyle and Mr. Malfoy and the rest of the Death Eaters came back to wreak havok and to torture some muggles and start with the Dursley's. It's my favorite beginning theory due to the ending of GoF with the hex incident on the train. I'm sure now that LV is back that the DE's will be back to their old tricks regardless of what laws are in effect. Or maybe because Lucius Malfoy seems a little wary of the Muggle Protection Act in CoS when he was pawning his illegal potions at Borgins shop they won't torture the Dursley's there. Or maybe they can't because of Harry's ancient protection. Or maybe Voldemort has a different plan. So instead they'll kidnap the adult Dursleys, take them back to wherever LV and the DE's clubhouse is to torture and have fun with them there. And it effectively removes Harry's protection. That's why Harry is unconcious in the flowerbed. Harry now has no protection. He's stuck with Dudley and has to find a place to go. Dumbledore in his "all-knowing " or "spying" ways finds out and brings both of them to Hogwarts, the other place Harry is proteced. That is my theory (this week)of why Harry is lying in a flowerbed and how OotP might begin. There was that hint about a person starting Hogwarts at an older age. At first I thought Hagrid but he's now on the giant journey with Madame Maxime. And Dudley might get too fat for the pants available at his school and robes and be made for very, very obese people! What do you think about the kidnap idea (not the idea that obese people fit in robes;-)? From rowen_lm at yahoo.com Sat Mar 22 00:26:14 2003 From: rowen_lm at yahoo.com (Liz Muir) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 00:26:14 -0000 Subject: OoTP book covers & interpretations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54098 This is mostly just a general observation about the book cover: To me, the candles don't appear to be circling around the room, at least not constantly. Note the absence of any candle images or light behind Harry's head. Well, I guess Harry's head is kind of blocking where they would be, but I think it looks as if they enter/exit the doors rather than coming full circle around Harry. Anyhoo, the impression I get is that the candles are coming out of the door on the left of the cover, swirling around Harry, and back through the door on the right. I haven't really considered the implications for this type of motion. What would be the point of sending the candles from one room to another? Who is doing it? I'll leave it to fans more knowledgable than myself to ponder these questions. Rowen Avalon From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Sat Mar 22 01:25:12 2003 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 17:25:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [filk] Voldemort is now Tom M. Riddle Message-ID: <20030322012512.89056.qmail@web40307.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54099 In message #53704, Gail said: <<>> *raises hand* Oooh, me, me! In fact, Gail, it looks like great minds think alike, because I've been filking the same song with the same subject (I was working on it when yours came out last week, if you can believe it)! However, mine has a slightly different twist, inspired by the anagram discussions on this list recently.... VOLDEMORT WAS ONCE TOM M. RIDDLE to the tune of "Istanbul (not Constantinople) by TMBG http://members.fortunecity.com/ultimate_midi_madness/Alternative (thanks for the link, Gail) Dedicated to any alternative music fans out there! (The scene: Harry and Tom Riddle in the Chamber of Secrets.) "How is it that you -- a skinny boy with no extraordinary magical talent -- managed to defeat the greatest wizard of all time? How did you escape with nothing but a scar, while Lord Voldemort's powers were destroyed?" "Why do you care how I escaped?" Harry said slowly. "Voldemort was after your time...." "Voldemort," said Riddle softly, "is my past, present and future, Harry Potter...." (A violin begins playing while Riddle is writing "TOM MARVOLO RIDDLE" in the air with Harry's wand. He starts singing...) TOM RIDDLE: Voldemort was once Tom M. Riddle and Tom M. Riddle is now Voldemort Been a long time gone, old Tom M. Riddle Now I am "Flight of Death", so don't hold your breath! (Riddle waves the wand; the letters start moving) Watch my name, it is rearranging These letters slide their way into changing My dirty muggle name, I've exchanged it And no more am I Tom Riddle! (The letters are still moving) Well, your wand must have a mind that's all its own Give it a moment, almost there Yes, my name's floating in the air... Now, wait a minute, that's not how it starts... It is not "I'M OLD MOLD OVER ART", Nor am I "I'M LORD REMOVAL DOT", And I'm not "LORD, ME A VOMIT LORD" And not "I'M VOTED MORAL LORD"! No-oh-oh, oh-oh, oh-oh Voldemort, Voldemort No-oh-oh, oh-oh, oh-oh Voldemort, Voldemort (Harry stifles a giggle) Now, don't laugh! Just wait! I think it's almost there You will see it's quite imposing What? It looks like it's transposing... No, not "EVIL, MAD, OLD MR. ROOT" and not "EVIL RAT ODD MR. LOOM" What's this? Not "DAMMIT! ROLL OVER, DO!" and it's not "DROOLED IMMORAL TV" No way to "DO ROLL, VOMIT DREAM" (Riddle throws a fit even a toddler would be proud of. After a minute of this, he angrily thrusts Harry's wand towards the errant letters, instantly erasing them, and painstakingly writes "I AM LORD VOLDEMORT" himself. With as much composure as he can muster after acting like a two-year-old, he again sings...) So, Voldemort was once Tom M. Riddle And Tom M. Riddle is now Voldemort Been a long time gone, old Tom M. Riddle Why did I change my name to Voldemort? Truth is, couldn't stand the "Marvolo" VOLDEMORT! Lilac, who really, really enjoys poking fun at the Dork Lord.... ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Professor, can you show me that blocking thing again?" Lockhart cuffed Harry merrily on the shoulder. "Just do what I did, Harry!" "What, drop my wand?" --Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From karenwickersham at ameritech.net Sat Mar 22 01:46:52 2003 From: karenwickersham at ameritech.net (karywick) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 01:46:52 -0000 Subject: A better site for book covers!!/Harry in St Mungos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54100 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jastrangfeld" > wrote: > > Sorry to keep posting :) But I also see now in that bigger picture, > > those doors all look to me as though they either have mirrors or > glass > > on them, explaining the ghostly look of the floating candles. And > > from where Harry's wand is standing, and the directions of the > flames, > > I'd have to say the room looks like it is spinning to me. It would > > also account for "floating" candle looks, as it's reflected and > moving > > fast, it would leave streaks. > > You know - since Harry's right-handed, this is likely a mirror- image > (which would explain all the candles, floating on doors, particularly > if there's something else reflective in that room). And I think that > spinning breeze might have been caused by Harry doing such magic/the > room spins. The streaks are the artist's way to express movement, > speed would make Harry's hand and wand unclear... > > Still, maybe it's not the *room* spinning, maybe it's the candles > that move? > I think: I read an article in the Detriot FreePree/ News a few weeks ago about Mary GrandPre ,from Minnesota, who does the American version cover art. She reads an early release of the book before she does the art but she let nothing on about the book in the article itself (which as people have noticed because they noticed she sometimes give quite a bit away. )By the way, She said she looks at herself in a mirror as she draws Harry, so the way he looks is based on her. Here's a pic sorry it won't turn blue to link - I also can't spell check- I don't know why. http://www.marygrandpre.org/marybio.html So as to that's why the American cover is a blueish gray . . .It's that magical room again. Maybe the room is spinning because the magical room Harry is in that is spinning is Dumbledore's pensieve. Someone (I can't remember who, it was so long ago) feared that Dumbledore would die before he could tell Harry about his past. Maybe Harry has to go back in to that strangly magicical pensieve to learn access the past thoughts of Dumbledore about Lily. I predict that that may be where he stored them because she may have been such an enigma to him. (Maybe she was a Slytherin or Heir to it or he didn't understand why James loved her) The spinning on the cover could hint at the spinning of his thoughts or the spinning of Harry's thought's in the penseive. Any other takers on this one? I agree with all those that say that the doors represent choices. I think that regardless of what they are (and again we'll know for sure in 90 days and 3 hours now except for me, boohoo!, 90 days and 15 hours) Harry will have a lot of choice to make- protecting or not people he doesn't like maybe Dursley's or Snape, Evil or Good Defintely Good (we hope), maybe save a friend or kill Voledmort, but I think there will be many many choices in this book and as Dumbledore said in CoS "It is our choices who show us who we are, far more than our abilities". And we all know that the easy choices aren't always the best choices. From grover_the_weird at yahoo.com Fri Mar 21 23:37:52 2003 From: grover_the_weird at yahoo.com (Clarity Sherwood) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 15:37:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Snape saving Harry (was: An odd musing about Harry's atitude) In-Reply-To: <1048250493.2700.88737.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030321233752.89043.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54101 Finwitch: Not that his counter-curses didn't do what he intended, just that well, why didn't Snape steal Quirrell's attention - well, until Hermione *made* him to? Maybe move his hand in front of Quirrell's eyes? "Accidentally" step on Quirrell's foot? Well, I really think that it was purely for plot reasons, since is did lead Hermione to think that Snape was jinxing him. Sometimes those things just don't have explainations. -clarity __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From mysmacek at yahoo.com Sat Mar 22 00:12:03 2003 From: mysmacek at yahoo.com (mysmacek) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 00:12:03 -0000 Subject: Ridiculing the moon In-Reply-To: <3E7307EF.000003.28035@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54102 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > > Patricia Bullington-McGuirewrote - > The first time I read PoA, I thought the orb was a crystal ball. After > all, Trelawney said Lupin nearly panicked when she offered to do a reading > for him. > > Maybe it really is a crystal ball, and not the moon. After all, JKR > frequently makes humorous references to Trelawney looking like a giant > insect. More probably, it was just the other way round - he panicked because her glass orb looked so much like a moon. Don't forget moon is what he fears most ;-) Mysmacek From karenwickersham at ameritech.net Sat Mar 22 02:00:08 2003 From: karenwickersham at ameritech.net (karywick) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 02:00:08 -0000 Subject: book cover is the pensieve I think In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54103 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "karywick" wrote: > > > So as to that's why the American cover is a blueish gray . . .It's > that magical room again. Maybe the room is spinning because the > magical room Harry is in that is spinning is Dumbledore's pensieve. > Someone (I can't remember who, it was so long ago) feared that > Dumbledore would die before he could tell Harry about his past. > Maybe Harry has to go back in to that strangly magicical pensieve to > learn access the past thoughts of Dumbledore about Lily. I predict > that that may be where he stored them because she may have been such > an enigma to him. (Maybe she was a Slytherin or Heir to it or he > didn't understand why James loved her) The spinning on the cover > could hint at the spinning of his thoughts or the spinning of Harry's > thought's in the penseive. Any other takers on this one? I'm actually replying on my own post by I went back and again reread my and agaist I had replied to the wrong post. I have to give it to all the previous posters. I would not have noitced all the fine deatiles you all have but it all adds up to me and make complete sense to me at least. The light is coming in form the top. That happen when Harry fell in the pensieve if I remember, correctly. Help me with a quote please. Since the pensieves substance was mercury-like it would also reflect light like a mirror. I also think that is why he would appear to be left handed and all that candles would appear to be backward and his glasses would appaer to reflect imiage or shine back light. So he doesn't necessarily haveto be in a room with many doors, just have to me in someone or Dombleore's memory room with many doors. That is if you accept my idea. Kary From karenwickersham at ameritech.net Sat Mar 22 02:07:45 2003 From: karenwickersham at ameritech.net (karywick) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 02:07:45 -0000 Subject: book cover is a pensieve I think (quick apology ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54104 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "karywick" wrote: > --- I sincerely apologize to everyone on this list for all those typo's .I forgot to re-read it before hitting send. I am very emarra My tools do not have a spell check. Since I type fast but revers or miss letters does anyone know how to get spell check to work with Yahoo and can email me wiht instructions?- Help! thanks Kary From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sat Mar 22 02:32:18 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 21:32:18 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape saving Harry (was: An odd musing about Harry's atit... Message-ID: <15c.1cd97df8.2bad2532@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54105 > Finwitch: > Not that his counter-curses didn't do what he > intended, just that well, why didn't Snape steal Quirrell's attention - > well, until Hermione *made* him to? Maybe move his hand in front > of Quirrell's eyes? "Accidentally" step on Quirrell's foot? "Hermione fought her way across to the stand where Snape stood, and was now racing along the row behind him; she didn't even stop to say sorry as she knocked Professor Quirrell headfirst into the front row. Reaching Snape...." ~SS/PB/191 Ok, that quote leads me to believe that Quirrell was in the row behind Snape. Where though I cannot say, but it had to be close enough for him to see Snape. WHERE exactly he was behind him I cannot say, but I have a feeling he wasn't directly behind him. Otherwise he probably would've crashed right into Snape when Hermione knocked him over or at least caught his attention and broken his own eye contact (which wasn't broken until Hermione set him on fire.) How did they figure each other out if they were both concentrating on Harry? Here is my theory: Neither of them knew WHILE they were doing the spell WHO was doing the spell. After Quirrell got back on his feet there was probably enough time before Hermione got to Snape for him to look around and see him continuing to chant. At this point was when he probably also saw Hermione doing her handy work. How did Snape figure Quirrell out? Process of deduction, Maybe? He already suspected the man (with good reason) of evil doing and it could've dawned on him that the spell was severed right when Quirrell was knocked over. And if he did know before hand, I have two reasons why he didn't take any action against Quirrell: 1. He knew that if he didn't constantly counter the curse from the start Quirrell would've succeeded in throwing Harry off his broom. Quirrell even admits to this. Snape probably figured he would have a better chance at countering the curse than at trying to find its originator and stopping them. Quirrell himself said he could've thrown Harry off sooner if the curse wasn't being countered. 2. Let's say he did decide to directly try to break Quirrell's eye contact. By the way I think they were in the stands, I don't think he could just wave a hand infront of his eyes or anything. besides, who says that would break his eye contact. Having to concentrate with a spell like this one seems to, well, take LOADS of concentration which probably involves blocking other interferrances (sp?) in some way. That was why it took actually knocking Quirrell over to break his eye contact and why Snape didn't notice that he had been set on fire or who had done it. I think if Snape hadn't been concentrating on the spell he would've definately caught Hermione. So the only way Snape would've been able to break Quirrell's eye contact would be to do something drastic. Which, of course, would raise a lot of questions. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Sat Mar 22 03:37:50 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 22:37:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030322033750.55031.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54106 Aesob wrote: >I think it has to be Harry, it would be strange to have the >book open with >another teenage boy lying in the Dursley yard. Also, I >don't think the book >would open with Harry doing yardwork (though I could be >wrong). Why is he >outside on the hottest day of the summer when it seems that >no one else is >out? >The mental image this conjures for me is a boy (I think >it's got to be Harry) >compressing the fresh, loose dirt of a raised flowerbed >bordered by lawn, >crushing Aunt Petunia's flowers, probably about to get >yelled at.> And now me: Page 13 of CoS: "Harry paid dearly for his moment of fun. As neither Dudley nor the hedge was in any way hurt, Aunt Petunia knew he hadn't really done magic, but he still had to duck as she aimed a heavy blow at his head with the soapy frying pan. Then she gave him work to do, with the promise he wouldn't eat again until he'd finished. While Dudley lolled around watching and eating ice-creams, Harry cleaned the windows, washed the car, mowed the lawn, trimmed the flowerbeds, pruned and watered the roses and repainted the garden bench. The sun blazed overhead, burning the back of his neck...... "Wish they could see the famous Harry Potter now" he thought savagely, as he spread manure on the flowerbeds, his back aching, sweat running down his face. It was half past seven in the evening when at last, exhausted, he heard Aunt Petunia call him in." Since he has obviously been made to do such work in the past on a hot day, there is no reason to think that Aunt Petunia might not again inflict the same punishment on Harry at the opening of OotP. I guess the question that remains is whether Harry is lying in the flowerbed on his own choosing. Possibilities are endless.. but June 21 approaches, thank goodness! Lea (who wishes she wasn't scheduled to work the weekend the book is released, will anyone believe me if I call in sick?) --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rona_patterson at yahoo.com Sat Mar 22 04:00:04 2003 From: rona_patterson at yahoo.com (Rona Patterson) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 20:00:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Certain Room In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030322040004.43350.qmail@web9203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54107 Susan Atherton wrote: What do we think? The chamberpot room? Why is it significant? Is it because it can move? Is it the "new place" Harry will visit in book 5? Will it ever be June 21? rona replies with: Ok we have been fussing over who is right about what room is the magical room. Listen two answers are right. Ok first we need to assume that Dumbledore lives in the Chamber in which Harry found the Pensive. We also need to take into consideration that when Dumbledore needed the Chamber pot room he was in his room . So next we should assume that his room is the magical room that holds magical rooms. I'm saying that his room is a room within its self. Its confusing, but I think that Rowling would throw something like that into play. Be nice in the postings Please. Rona Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3079700.4403303.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3079700.4403303.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250; ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Sat Mar 22 05:38:35 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 21:38:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: OoTP book covers & interpretations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030322053835.7998.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54108 Hmm...does the US cover remind anyone else of those for the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew series? The OotP one is better executed (and less busy) but Harry's posture and to some extent his facial expression are very reminiscent of that of those other teenage detectives. Laura Ingalls Huntley, in part: > Alright. I haven't been following > this thread very closely, and I'm sure > someone has already brought this up > (if so, I apologize profusely), but what > do you guys think all this has to do > with the JKR interview in which she > claims that, "Harry's horizons are > literally and metaphorically widening as > he grows older. But also there are > places in the world that I've been > planning for so long and thinking > about for so long that we haven't yet > explored, and it's great fun. That will > happen in book 5, too; we go into a > whole new area, physically, an area > you've never seen before, a magical > world." > > Traditionally, you need...you know, > some sort of portal, don't you, to get > into a magic world? When I saw the US > cover, my first thought was that > some sort of portal, don't you, to the > room must be a sort of hub - all the > doors lead to different places (one to > this "magical world" and perhaps others > to other magical worlds or important > places in *this* world...Godric's Hollow > or the Ministry perhaps? ^_^). > > In reference to the spinning candles and > tornado of the Wizard of Oz...perhaps a > "whirling vortex" is deemed somehow > necessary to the type of travel require > to enter magical worlds - or even just > to travel over great distances (i.e. > Godric's Hollow)? Interesting idea...very Chronicles of Narnia. After all, these doors are extremely close to each other and in our muggle world likely to open into extremely tiny spaces like those the size of wardrobes. But if the one lid of Moody's trunk can open up to allow access INTO different spaces, perhaps Harry has stumbled into a room that has doors that open OUT TO different spaces. So, do these doors lead to worlds even more magical or do they lead magically to yet unknown parts of the WW (that which is at least partially known to us already)? Though both paths interest me, since in stories mysterious doors in ordinary worlds usually open into magical ones...I have always rather thought that mysterious doors in magical worlds ought to open into mundane ones. OK, just me then. Petra a n :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From rona_patterson at yahoo.com Sat Mar 22 04:29:50 2003 From: rona_patterson at yahoo.com (Rona Patterson) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 20:29:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Another possible inconsistency *plus* Why Summon Winky? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030322042950.86484.qmail@web9204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54109 erisedstraeh2002 wrote: Maria (maryblue67) wrote: > When Moody takes Harry at the end of the third task, Dumbledore > immediately knows that he is not the real Moody. How does he > know that the impostor was Crouch Jr.? ~Phyllis said: So now I have a question - why did Dumbledore summon Winky to witness Crouch Jr.'s confession? All Winky did was cry. She wasn't asked to confirm or deny any of what Crouch Jr. said (it would have been unnecessary, anyway, since the veritaserum forced him to tell the truth). She knew the whole story already, so it can't be that she needed to hear the truth. So what was the point of having Winky there? I just don't get it. rona replies: I think that Dumbledore now knew why Winky came to work at Hogwarts. And that was for the sole purpose of deception and he was mad. Think about this, Dumbledore goes out on a limb to hire a fired house elf, who not only puts Harry in danger but the entire student body. I think that Dumbledore kind of wanted to punish Winky seeing how she helped Crouch Jr. Mind you Jr. was the D.E. who tortured Neville Longbottoms parents and countless others, and he wanted to let her see the possibilities. Wouldn't you be mad. Ok if I'm way off tell me. Rona ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drusillamalfoy at gmx.net Sat Mar 22 08:11:42 2003 From: drusillamalfoy at gmx.net (Drusilla Malfoy) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 09:11:42 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 2623 References: <1048298100.3060.42762.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000c01c2f04a$ace30340$0301a8c0@Sternenflotte> No: HPFGUIDX 54110 > My theory is that he transforms into a bumblebee. That doesn't fit in > with his love of muggle sweets, bees prefer nector, but it does > explain how he can get around Hogwarts unseen. A bumblebee in the > dark would be invisible even without a cloak. > sirius kase I agree with you there. Expecially as "dumbledore" is, in fact, an old Englisch expression for "bumblebee", as JKR said in one of her many interviews. And as we have a lot more talking names like e.g. Lupin this would seem logical. Dru Malfoy From bobafett at harbornet.com Sat Mar 22 08:14:50 2003 From: bobafett at harbornet.com (BoBaFeTT) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 00:14:50 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoTP book covers & interpretations References: <20030322053835.7998.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000901c2f04b$1d14a1a0$fc8402c7@home> No: HPFGUIDX 54111 Earlier someone stated it looked like the US cover was a reflection of harry due to him holding his wand in his left hand. But unless I'm wrong the standard door opens right to left and that's how they appear. So unless there's something different with that, I have to assume Harry has his wand in his left hand as it appears and it is not a reflection. Perhaps he has damaged his right hand, he does look cautious. -BoBaFeTT [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From briony_coote at hotmail.com Sat Mar 22 08:38:42 2003 From: briony_coote at hotmail.com (Briony Coote) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 20:38:42 +1200 Subject: Some questions about Sirius Black (some FF) Message-ID: <000301c2f04e$71874140$c7a7a7cb@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 54112 Hello Everybody! My name is Briony Coote and I live in New Zealand! I became a fan of the Harry Potter books through the movies. I have finished all four books and placed my reservation for the fifth. My favourite character is Sirius Black and I have a hunch that the fifth book will deal with the crusade to clear his name. Why? Because Azkaban will certainly feature very strongly since Voldemort plans to break it open, and because the Ministry will probably make Black a scapegoat for any nasty activity. Speaking of Sirius Black, I have come up with some more questions about him, so here we go: 1 - At the end of GoF, why does Dumbledore tell Sirius to resume his human form while Snape and Mrs Weasley are in the hospital ward? Is it more than just to let them know the truth about Sirius? Could Dumbledore have some plan to clear Sirius? 2 - Now that Mrs Weasley knows about Sirius, what is she going to do with this piece of information? How do we know she doesn't go to the Ministry? 3 - Rita Skeeter must also know, since she was in the ward at the time (Hermoine caught her on the window sill). What's to stop her from blabbing (apart from Hermoine's blackmail)? 4 - Could Mad-Eye Moody testify that Pettigrew is alive, and a DE? Remember, Pettigrew was with Crouch Jnr when they surprised him and stuffed him into that trunk. 5 - If word gets out that Dumbledore and Harry are protecting Sirius, what could happen to them, and Sirius? 6 - What could the ramifications of Voldemort's raid on Azkaban be for the campaign to clear Sirius? I have read rumours that Sirius will return to Azkaban, and Harry goes to save him. That is certainly the case in one fanfic, and the whole thing turns out to be a trap set by Voldemort. In another fanfic, the Dementors are removed behind Fudge's back, and replaced with giants. Better think of something else, Voldemort! So could Sirius become a pawn in Voldemort's plan to raid Azkaban? 7 - Doesn't Sirius have the right to any form of appeal, especially since he didn't have a trial? They must have an appeal system since Buckbeak got one. 8 - Finally, have those imprisoned DEs been given some sort of special power that would enable them to survive Azkaban with their minds and powers intact? The Lestranges could not apparate to Voldemort's side because they were locked in Azkaban, but this also means that they can still apparate. In other words, they still have the powers they should have lost while being exposed to Dementors. And what of their minds? Have they gone mad or what? If they are insane, what use would insane DEs be to Voldemort? But Karkaroff and Crouch Jnr. were still sane after a year or so in Azkaban, while "most go mad within weeks." So do the DEs have some special capability that would enable them to withstand Azkaban? That will be all for now. I'll be looking forward to hearing from you! Cheers, Briony [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From trinity61us at yahoo.com Sat Mar 22 09:41:08 2003 From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 01:41:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Winky(WAS:RE: Another possible inconsistency *plus* Why Summon Winky? In-Reply-To: <20030322042950.86484.qmail@web9204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030322094108.8702.qmail@web14902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54113 Rona wrote: << I think that Dumbledore now knew why Winky came to work at Hogwarts. And that was for the sole purpose of deception and he was mad. Think about this, Dumbledore goes out on a limb to hire a fired house elf, who not only puts Harry in danger but the entire student body. I think that Dumbledore kind of wanted to punish Winky seeing how she helped Crouch Jr. Mind you Jr. was the D.E. who tortured Neville Longbottoms parents and countless others, and he wanted to let her see the possibilities. Wouldn't you be mad. Ok if I'm way off tell me. >>>>> Very interesting idea!! And , no, I don't think you are off! Dumbledore has mysterious ways, and that could be one of them. Also that explains the complete mental breakdown she's having. She is so terrified that Dumbledore, the kind wizard who took her in, will find out that she betrayed him! Not to mention the guilt that would accompany this. Good observation! Alex (Malfoy Men are MM-MM Good) Fox From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Mar 22 11:09:32 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 11:09:32 -0000 Subject: Some questions about Sirius Black (some FF) In-Reply-To: <000301c2f04e$71874140$c7a7a7cb@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54114 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Briony Coote" wrote: Briony: >My favourite character is > Sirius Black and I have a hunch that the fifth book will deal with the > crusade to clear his name. Why? Because Azkaban will certainly feature > very strongly since Voldemort plans to break it open, and because the > Ministry will probably make Black a scapegoat for any nasty activity. I agree that it will probably deal with clearing Sirius' name. (Of course, certainty will come earliest in June...) At least, as Harry's dealt with Voldemort's spirit, pre-Voldemort's memory-in-book; Voldemort's spies Pettigrew(who escaped) and Crouch Jr (who got Dementor's Kiss); he has met Voldemort-in-flesh; Also, Order of Phoenix-- well, as Phoenix is reborn from ashes... Sirius being freed and Pettigrew (thought dead but lives) found alive would sort of fit. Maybe the appeal-court is called Order of Phoenix? Maybe it also refers with the 'old crowd', an organisation that's somesort of knightly order... What comes to Molly, Ron's "It's all right, Mom!" probably means that Ron has explained it all to her (while Harry was too much in shock to notice much anything), including how Sirius *saved his life* from transformed Lupin... She won't go against Sirius, but Percy would if he heard... While I haven't read any fanfic where Sirius goes to Azkaban - I myself have had this scene popped into my head in which Harry does try to. It may or may not take place - more or less. Going like this... Using the knife/Alohomora and Invisibility Cloak he gets into Sirius' cell unnoticed. However, Sirius refuses to leave because he gave his word not to. A wizard-guard pops in to see what's going on. Sirius blatantly tells him that his godson came for a visit, Harry takes off his cloak. Sirius and Harry then have a long discussion about honour and what Sirius&James did at school and some more godfathering on Sirius' part... Then Harry just gets told to be brave and wait until Sirius is officially cleared. This sort of endurance is bravery in which Neville excels, but I haven't seen Harry do yet. -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Mar 22 11:35:29 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 11:35:29 -0000 Subject: Godric/Fawkes In-Reply-To: <1e.d30ab12.2bacddff@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54115 Lynda: > I have often thought it quite interesting that Fawkes takes such a shine to > Harry, not just when Harry is loyal to Dumbledore in the Chamber of Secrets, > but when Harry's in the office. Fawkes doesn't climb into just anyone's lap > -- but he climbs into Harry's. I think Harry will be Fawkes next master > after Dumbledore, which makes me wonder how the haughty Hedwig will take it > when there's a phoenix in Harry's life? > > Lynda Yes, well... What if Hedwig dies before that? Like when Harry's at Dursleys - say DEs killed Petunia and Vernon (maybe also Dudley), thus destroying Harry's protection, *Hedwig* sacrifices herself for Harry, but DEs don't notice and Harry gains ANOTHER scar while the DE dies (and his companions carry the body away)... As Hedwig's been Harry's only contact to wizarding world, he's now on his own. (A clue in CoS?: "We didn't have any choice" - "Why didn't you send us a letter? You do have an owl, don't you?" - well, what if Harry no longer *has* an Owl?) What is he to do? Particularly if the front door is locked, he has no key and his wand etc. are inside? -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Mar 22 11:48:35 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 11:48:35 -0000 Subject: OoTP book covers & interpretations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54116 Rowen Avalon: > > Anyhoo, the impression I get is that the candles are coming out of > the door on the left of the cover, swirling around Harry, and back > through the door on the right. > > I haven't really considered the implications for this type of motion. > What would be the point of sending the candles from one room to > another? Who is doing it? I'll leave it to fans more knowledgable > than myself to ponder these questions. Me: Well.. no-one really *needs* to make those candles move - much like no one needs to make mirrors talk once they're enchanted; If this is sort of prediction/move_in_time-room, the movement would show which is the future and which is the past - also, candles come from past and go to the future; they flames may present lives that will, sooner or later die - either because the candle burns to end or because someone *makes* it die...; -- Finwitch From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 22 12:22:27 2003 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (Catherine Coleman) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 12:22:27 +0000 Subject: ADMIN: Snipping Rules Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54117 Greetings from Hexquarters! There has been a marked increase recently of posts which have not been following our snipping rules adequately: So, please remember that when you are replying to a post, snip out any irrelevant and surplus text from the original. You need only leave (or even state) something which will give other readers an idea of the points to which you are responding. Remember also to clearly cite the person who wrote the original post, and ensure that your comments are sufficiently separate from the quoted material, so everyone can easily tell who is saying what. It is very important that these conventions are followed. I'm sure that you can all appreciate that this list is very high volume - something we expect only to increase in the build up to the release date of the Order of the Phoenix. Snipping properly helps to reduce bandwidth, keeps Daily Digest readers happy as it reduces the amount of scrolling through extraneous material, and ultimately, makes the list much more pleasurable for everyone to read. Howlers will be arriving in the mail boxes of anyone who persists in not following these rules. Furthermore, repeat offenders will find themselves back on moderated status for a time. You have been warned! Catherine The Magical Moderator Team From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Mar 22 12:36:28 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 12:36:28 -0000 Subject: Choices (WAS: book covers of OoTP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54118 > > Phyllis: > > Thank you for that reference. The many doors on the US OoP jacket > and this reference have me recalling Dumbledore's words to Harry at > the end of CoS: "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly > are, far more than our abilities." In many instances over the course > of the first four books, Harry has been faced with choosing good over > evil in the face of temptation. Mary Grand Pre's cover suggests to > me that Harry will once again be faced with such a choice in OoP. > > It's interesting, however, that all of the doors are somewhat ajar. > Assuming that it's not just an artistic interpretation and it truly > reflects the plot, perhaps this suggests that Harry will get a > glimpse of what lies behind each door before he has to make up his > mind as to which door to choose. Which, of course, could either make > his decision easier or more difficult. Well that's a question of what a *choice* truly is. Would picking up an option at random count as choice? I think not. That's a guess. If one of your options clearly is better than others, and you pick that, it's not a choice but rationality. A choice is made by equally valued options, options that one's also equally aware of. Like that sometimes there are only *wrong* options. Maybe the choice Harry's to make has something to do with Sirius? Like is he going to lie to smooth or stand up to people? (he took the first option in GoF when Sirius told him to stay away from Krum AND when Hermione came up with SPEW on instinct, but second to Aunt Marge and Vernon in anger - and yet, I didn't see it like Harry was making consious choice, just acting on instinct..) Will Harry choose between waiting for Sirius' trial or attempt to save him from Azkaban illegally? (And well, Harry might take the latter, Sirius the first...) -- Finwitch From kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au Sat Mar 22 12:51:49 2003 From: kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au (kenney) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 12:51:49 -0000 Subject: Hermione can tie her own shoelaces (Re: Bad stuff for Hermione) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54119 A long time ago in posting terms, (3 days) the group was talking not about book covers, but the price Hermione will pay for entrapping Rita Skeeter in a glass jar. Many of you have said this will provoke the reporter to make Hermione's life a living he...ahem... Anyway, this is my 3rd and finally attempt at trying to post my viewpoint. Darn my terrible spelling and gramma.... I believe that since Rita Skeeter was a character created exclusively for GOF, we can speculate that her character was not around at the time Hermione's fate was decided (in a time before anyone knew what a 'Muggle' was- besides those of us who read Dahl). Since Rita was a late comer to the series she may affect the poor girl, but she will not be responsible for whatever happens to the brilliant witch that is our Hermione. Thus I conclude, Hermione can and will do more damage to Skeeter than Rita thinks. Besides, anyone hear of a thing called 'blackmail'? >From the increasingly impatient Mr Harry Potter's Key Or Kenney who still thinks Dobby's a legend even though the film got him wrong. From patricia at obscure.org Sat Mar 22 14:36:11 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 09:36:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Some questions about Sirius Black (some FF) In-Reply-To: <000301c2f04e$71874140$c7a7a7cb@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54120 On Sat, 22 Mar 2003, Briony Coote wrote: > Hello Everybody! > > My name is Briony Coote and I live in New Zealand! I became a fan of > the Harry Potter books through the movies. I have finished all four > books and placed my reservation for the fifth. My favourite character is > Sirius Black and I have a hunch that the fifth book will deal with the > crusade to clear his name. Why? Because Azkaban will certainly feature > very strongly since Voldemort plans to break it open, and because the > Ministry will probably make Black a scapegoat for any nasty activity. On the other hand, my feeling is that Black won't be cleared until Book 7. At the end of GoF, Dumbledore and his followers have broken away from the Ministry. The Minister of Magic is not interested in hearing that Voldemort lives or that events 13 years ago did not go the way he believes. He may even be an agent (witting or unwitting) of Voldemort. Since this situation was just set up at the end of book 4, I expect it to continue to develop through book 5 at least. I expect things to get worse and worse for Harry (and by extension, Sirius) through books 5 and 6, until finally being resolved in book 7. Given the state of relations with the Ministry and with Fudge at the start of OotP, it seems unlikely to me that any evidence in Black's favor would be heard by a fair court at this time. > Speaking of Sirius Black, I have come up with some more questions about > him, so here we go: > > 1 - At the end of GoF, why does Dumbledore tell Sirius to resume his > human form while Snape and Mrs Weasley are in the hospital ward? Is it > more than just to let them know the truth about Sirius? Could > Dumbledore have some plan to clear Sirius? My feeling was that Dumbledore wanted to clear the air so his agents wouldn't be working at cross-purposes. After all, if Snape were still desperately trying to get Sirius sent back to Azkaban that could easily get in the way of whatever Sirius is trying to accomplish for Dumbledore. But there could be a hidden motive as well. We'll have to wait and see. > 2 - Now that Mrs Weasley knows about Sirius, what is she going to do > with this piece of information? How do we know she doesn't go to the > Ministry? I think this is mostly a matter of Molly Weasley's character. She believes in people, and especially in Dumbledore. Once she has given her word to help Dumbledore, she's not going to betray his trust by turning against another of his helpers. We have seen that, in the absence of proof, she can be swayed by public opinion, as when she believed Rita Skeeter's lies about Hermione. However, once the situation was explained by someone she trusts (Harry, in that case), she took Hermione back with open arms. Sirius is now in much the same position. The general public thinks he is guilty, but Dumbledore, whom Molly trusts, says he is innocent and that's good enough for her. > 3 - Rita Skeeter must also know, since she was in the ward at the time > (Hermoine caught her on the window sill). What's to stop her from > blabbing (apart from Hermoine's blackmail)? Yes, this worries me, too. Blackmail could be enough to keep her in line if she is just an ambitious reporter out to serve herself. However, she could also be an agent of the DEs, and in that case she now has extremely valuable information to pass on to them. She could even turn to the DEs to get revenge against Hermione, even if she hadn't been on their side before. > > 4 - Could Mad-Eye Moody testify that Pettigrew is alive, and a DE? > Remember, Pettigrew was with Crouch Jnr when they surprised him and > stuffed him into that trunk. Possibly. We won't know exactly what Moody saw until he gets a chance to speak for himself. He could have seen Pettigrew, or he could have been knocked out before he got the chance. However, as I said above, I don't think he'll get a chance to testify about anything anytime soon as the Ministry of Magic is not interested in hearing uncomfortable truths right now. > > 5 - If word gets out that Dumbledore and Harry are protecting Sirius, > what could happen to them, and Sirius? Conceivably, the Ministry could try to lock them all up in Azkaban, although I doubt they would be able to enforce that as long as Dumbledore stays at Hogwarts. Certainly their reputations would be ruined, which would make it much harder for Dumbledore to rally the WW against Voldemort. I could also see masses of parents pulling their students out of Hogwarts, futher depriving Harry of allies. > > 6 - What could the ramifications of Voldemort's raid on Azkaban be for > the campaign to clear Sirius? Hmm, I'm not sure about that one. I don't see how it could help Sirius. But if it were alleged that Sirius, a supposed DE, was involved in the raid, that would only make things worse for him. As an escaped prisoner (the only one, supposedly, though we know better than that) he would have the most intimate knowledge of the prison and could even be portrayed as the ringleader of a breakout attempt. > > > 7 - Doesn't Sirius have the right to any form of appeal, especially > since he didn't have a trial? They must have an appeal system since > Buckbeak got one. My assumption was that he didn't get a trial because he "confessed." That could possibly negate the right to an appeal. I would love it if we got to see a wizarding attorney explain the wizarding legal system and Sirius's legal rights. > > 8 - Finally, have those imprisoned DEs been given some sort of special > power that would enable them to survive Azkaban with their minds and > powers intact? The Lestranges could not apparate to Voldemort's side > because they were locked in Azkaban, but this also means that they can > still apparate. In other words, they still have the powers they should > have lost while being exposed to Dementors. It's not clear whether the loss of powers is permanent or only lasts as long as the imprisonment does. I presume the Lestranges' powers can return, or else they would be worthless to Voldemort and he wouldn't care about returning them to his flock. > And what of their minds? Have they gone mad or what? If they are > insane, what use would insane DEs be to Voldemort? But Karkaroff and > Crouch Jnr. were still sane after a year or so in Azkaban, while "most > go mad within weeks." > > So do the DEs have some special capability that would enable them to > withstand Azkaban? Like the loss of powers, it's not clear if the insanity is permanent in all cases. Once a prisoner is removed from the presence of the Dementors, their faculties could return to them, at least enough to make them useful again. Also, there's insanity and then there is insanity. If the Lestranges can only sit in the corner rocking back and forth and gibbering incoherently, they are pretty useless. But if they are irrationally obsessed with getting revenge on those who imprisoned them, they may well be clinically mentally ill but could still be very valuable to the Dark Lord. Furthermore, the Lestranges seem to have been "true believers." As such, they may not believe they are "guilty" of anything -- in their own minds, they were serving the righteous cause and are unjustly imprisoned. So they could possibly receive the same sort of protection that Sirius's knowledge of his own innocence provided to him. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From cantor at vgernet.net Sat Mar 22 15:44:17 2003 From: cantor at vgernet.net (Amy Miller) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 10:44:17 -0500 Subject: Two comments Message-ID: <003601c2f089$e63935d0$7094c318@amy9kgdax8rjp4> No: HPFGUIDX 54121 Hi. De-lurking after surgery (successful). Two comments. 1. Concerning DD asking for Winky. I think that DD wanted Winky to hear from Crouch jr's own lips that he murdered his father. She knew that he was at Hogwarts and even though she was no longer his house-elf, she felt responsible for his escape. Working at Hogwarts was the only way she could be close to him, and maybe save him from danger if she found out about it. Hearing of the murder forced Winky to realize that her loyalties had been misplaced and now, perhaps, she will be able to function at Hogwarts. 2. OOP bookcover. I don't know why, but my first thought was that the MG cover was just a "mock up" and that the colors would be added in before the actual printing. All that blue made everything hard to discern. I'm sure that Scholastic is getting responses to the cover and if enough people ask for it to be a little more "accessible," they could simply print colored covers. After all, they have 3 months. Just some thoughts. cantoramy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From groml at cards.lanck.net Sat Mar 22 15:36:14 2003 From: groml at cards.lanck.net (Maria Gromova) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 18:36:14 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Godric Gryffindor from Shropshire? Message-ID: <020901c2f088$c7e223e0$9d42983e@rcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 54122 Pip wrote: >Incidentally, is he supposed to be 'Gryffindor' or 'Gryffin d'Or'? >My CSE French (failed) would make this Godric of the Gold Gryffin. > That's right. In French Gryffindor would be 'gold gryffin'. And the arms of the House he founded is a gold lion, a lion or in the language of heraldry. A gryffin has a body of a lion, as far as I know. But then I have a thought - could it be French back then? Maybe, it is one of the Celtic languages? Gold is 'or' in Gaelic, at least. What do you think? Maria. From cindysphynx at comcast.net Sat Mar 22 16:28:44 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 16:28:44 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: New List Elf! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54123 Greetings from Hexquarters! While you were all counting down the days until OoP arrives, a new Elf managed to sneak into Hexquarters, having stowed away in a crate of lima beans and brussel sprouts. She seems to have a gift for baking All Things Chocolate, however, so we are pleased to announce her conscrip...er, addition to the ranks of our overworked, unpaid and oft-abused staff. Please welcome Eloise Herisson (Wheezy Elf) as our newest List Elf. In between preparing batches of homemade brownies, she will be getting to her (rather less important) job of greeting new members, answering questions and approving messages. Wheezy joins her colleagues in the ranks of the oppressed: Heidi Tandy (Heidy Elf), Sheryll (Rylly Elf), Jen Faulkner (Jenny Elf), David Frankis (Davey Elf), Luke (Lukey Elf), Gwendolyn Grace (Gwenny Elf), Dana Mahoney (Honey Elf), Dicentra Spectabilis (Dicey Elf), Judy Shapiro (Judey Elf), Pippin (Peppy Elf), Saitaina (Saity Elf), Tabouli (Tooly Elf), Mary Ann (Dizzy Elf), Ebony AKA AngieJ (Ebby Elf), Porphyria (Ashey Elf), Marina (Filky Elf), Ali Hewison (Merry Elf), Debbie AKA elfundeb (Debby Elf), Kimberly (Moony Elf) and Pip AKA Pip!Squeak (Pippy Elf). Every member of HPfGU ought to have his or her own List Elf. If you don't have one, then please contact the Mods, Elves and Geists at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com, and we'll be sure to remedy the situation. Elves just love getting mail, and they live to answer questions, so feel free to drop yours an email if you need any help negotiating the lists -- or for that matter, just to say hello. Thank you for enduring this interruption. You may now get back to the job of figuring out exactly what those book covers might mean. BTW, has anyone counted the *number* of candles yet? That *has* to be important, don't you think? ;-) Cindy, for the Mods From artsylynda at aol.com Sat Mar 22 16:46:54 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 11:46:54 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Basilisk fang Message-ID: <1ab.128f9a80.2baded7e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54124 In the Chamber of Secrets fight between Harry and the Basilisk, the snake's fang BREAKS OFF in skinny little Harry's arm. The fang of a 60 foot long snake, it seems to me, would probably be about as big around as Harry's arm would be at that age, or bigger. So why did it break off? Teeth, as my dentist tells me repeatedly, are the hardest substance in the body of most living things. There should be nothing in Harry's arm that's *hard* enough to break off a snake's fang, even the bones. Certainly there's not enough meat on Harry to hold the snake's tooth so it won't come out of his arm. The Basilisk is big enough to eat Harry whole. So what made Harry's arm "tough" enough for the snake's tooth to break off in it (and I don't think Quidditch is the answer here)? I know we've established that wizards are not as fragile as regular humans (Neville bouncing after a fall, or just breaking his wrist in that fall from the broom, for instance), but does that mean they're actually "denser" in their body mass somehow (like rubber??)? Granted, we're talking about fiction, but since we analyze everything in huge detail here, I thought somebody might have an interesting idea about this. Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From artsylynda at aol.com Sat Mar 22 16:50:39 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 11:50:39 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why summon Winky? Message-ID: <10.2e447911.2badee5f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54125 In a message dated 3/22/2003 6:56:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > I think that Dumbledore now knew why Winky came to work at Hogwarts. And > that was for the sole purpose of deception and he was mad. Think about > this, Dumbledore goes out on a limb to hire a fired house elf, who not only > puts Harry in danger but the entire student body. I think that Dumbledore > kind of wanted to punish Winky seeing how she helped Crouch Jr. Mind you > Jr. was the D.E. who tortured Neville Longbottoms parents and countless > others, and he wanted to let her see the possibilities. Wouldn't you be > mad. Ok if I'm way off tell me. > > Rona > I think Dumbledore knew Winky needed "closure" -- she needed to know what happened so she could get on with her life. Yes, going through Barty Jr's confession was awful for her, but she then knew there were no Crouchs left for her to serve and that she didn't fail, Barty got around her and what happened was because that's how Barty wanted it. Winky was not at fault. She will have to go through some grieving period, but now she knows there really is no Crouch family left for her to serve and she can eventually get past her grief and get on with her life. I think Dumbledore was being as kind as he knew how -- Winky would not have believed any of that story coming from anyone but Barty. IMHO anyway. Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From devika at sas.upenn.edu Sat Mar 22 17:01:05 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 17:01:05 -0000 Subject: Some questions about Sirius Black (some FF) In-Reply-To: <000301c2f04e$71874140$c7a7a7cb@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54126 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Briony Coote" wrote: > Hello Everybody! > Hello, Briony! Welcome! > My favourite character is > Sirius Black and I have a hunch that the fifth book will deal with the > crusade to clear his name. Why? Because Azkaban will certainly feature > very strongly since Voldemort plans to break it open, and because the > Ministry will probably make Black a scapegoat for any nasty activity. If your favorite character is Sirius Black, you're in very good company on this list . Anyway, I think you have an interesting idea here. I hadn't thought of it, but it makes sense to me that the Ministry would think Sirius was involved in Voldemort's plans for Azkaban. After all, they do think that Sirius was Voldemort's right hand man, and they are still looking for him. On the other hand, though, Voldemort wants to release Azkaban from the control of the dementors so that the dementors can join the DEs. Would the ministry honestly believe that Sirius would want anything to do with the dementors now? Well, it's possible. You never know. > > 1 - At the end of GoF, why does Dumbledore tell Sirius to resume his > human form while Snape and Mrs Weasley are in the hospital ward? Is it > more than just to let them know the truth about Sirius? Could > Dumbledore have some plan to clear Sirius? > I always thought that the main purpose of this was to have everyone on the same side knowing the truth about Sirius. That doesn't mean that Dumbledore doesn't have a plan to clear Sirius, and I'd love it if he did. However, uniting to fight against Voldemort is the primary concern here. I do wonder, though, why Dumbledore sent Prof. McGonagall away before asking Sirius to reveal himself. I know we've discussed this before, and I do not subscribe to the evil!McGonagall theories. Perhaps she already knows? Or perhaps Dumbledore didn't want her to have to lie to the Ministry just in case they asked questions. > 2 - Now that Mrs Weasley knows about Sirius, what is she going to do > with this piece of information? How do we know she doesn't go to the > Ministry? We trust Mrs. Weasley. We know she won't go to the Ministry, although she'll have to keep her information about Sirius a secret from Percy. Molly Weasley trusts Dumbledore, and Dumbledore trusts Sirius. Plus I'm sure Ron explained the whole story to her afterwards. That would be good enough for her. > 3 - Rita Skeeter must also know, since she was in the ward at the time > (Hermoine caught her on the window sill). What's to stop her from > blabbing (apart from Hermoine's blackmail)? Yes, we've definitely discussed this before. Rita Skeeter most likely does know, and there really isn't much that keeps her from reporting everything. It would make one incredible story. I somehow don't think that Hermione's knowledge about Rita will be very effective in keeping Rita quiet on a story like this. I'm really quite afraid of what Rita can and might do. > > 4 - Could Mad-Eye Moody testify that Pettigrew is alive, and a DE? > Remember, Pettigrew was with Crouch Jnr when they surprised him and > stuffed him into that trunk. Mad-Eye Moody may not have actually seen Pettigrew. He may have been attacked before he saw who his attackers were. Even if he did see Peter, I doubt that Moody's testimony would count for much, since most people dismiss him as paranoid. > > 5 - If word gets out that Dumbledore and Harry are protecting Sirius, > what could happen to them, and Sirius? Whatever it is, it won't be good. That's why Rita is starting to scare me. > 6 - What could the ramifications of Voldemort's raid on Azkaban be for > the campaign to clear Sirius? I don't know if they would really have anything to do with each other, unless you believe in the scapegoat theory that you stated before. The point is that no matter what Sirius or Voldemort (or anyone else for that matter) do, Sirius is not going to clear his name unless he can prove that Peter is alive. Sirius didn't go to Azkaban for betraying the Potters; he went for killing Peter and twelve other people. If it were found that Peter was in fact alive, that would cast doubt on whether or not Sirius had actually killed anyone. Sirius doesn't have to show that Peter is a DE right away (although that would certainly help his case). He just needs to show that Peter is alive so that there is some initial doubt of his guilt. Then the fact that Peter is a DE would help to show that Sirius had been framed. > 7 - Doesn't Sirius have the right to any form of appeal, especially > since he didn't have a trial? They must have an appeal system since > Buckbeak got one. It seems likely that Sirius technically has the right to an appeal; however, considering the fear and panic of the time when he was arrested and the upcoming fear surrrounding the return of Voldemort, it seems unlikely that Sirius will be granted an appeal. > 8 - Finally, have those imprisoned DEs been given some sort of special > power that would enable them to survive Azkaban with their minds and > powers intact? The Lestranges could not apparate to Voldemort's side > because they were locked in Azkaban, but this also means that they can > still apparate. In other words, they still have the powers they should > have lost while being exposed to Dementors. The fact that the Lestranges couldn't apparate from Azkaban doesn't necessarily mean that they still have their powers. I don't know if Voldemort has any way of knowing whether or not they still have powers. Even if they do, however, that doesn't mean that all of the imprisoned DEs have retained their powers. I'm sure many of them died in Azkaban, just as Barty Crouch Jr. was thought to. Many others probably lost their powers. Since we don't know how many DEs were imprisoned, we can't know how many were able to keep their powers. > And what of their minds? Have they gone mad or what? If they are > insane, what use would insane DEs be to Voldemort? But Karkaroff and > Crouch Jnr. were still sane after a year or so in Azkaban, while "most > go mad within weeks." *Was* Crouch Jr. sane after being in Azkaban for a year? We know he certainly wasn't sane twelve years later, but we don't know whether his insanity in GoF was caused by Azkaban or by his imprisonment by his father. He could have been insane all along. We don't know. As for Karkaroff, we don't know that he was in Azkaban for a year. All we know is that he was put into Azkaban and then later released. I always got the impression that he wasn't in Azkaban for very long. If the Lestranges were the people Harry saw in the Pensieve, then they had a fanatical devotion to Voldemort even before they were put into Azkaban. That devotion can only have intensified after so many years. So, insane or not, the Lestranges should be of just as much use to Voldemort as Crouch Jr. was. > So do the DEs have some special capability that would enable them to > withstand Azkaban? Just my opinion, but I would say no. If Azkaban had no effect on DEs, then the Ministry would probably have noticed and done something about it. So many questions, so much speculation... Only three months to go!! Devika :) From editor at texas.net Sat Mar 22 17:01:29 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 11:01:29 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Basilisk fang References: <1ab.128f9a80.2baded7e@aol.com> Message-ID: <002301c2f094$af8bdc80$9905a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 54127 Lynda asked: > In the Chamber of Secrets fight between Harry and the Basilisk, the snake's > fang BREAKS OFF in skinny little Harry's arm. The fang of a 60 foot long > snake, it seems to me, would probably be about as big around as Harry's arm > would be at that age, or bigger. So why did it break off? #1 reason would be plot--it had to--but JKR is usually pretty good about building reasons for things into the story, too. Some thoughts: Maybe it broke out rather than off--that is, the fang itself didn't break, it came out at the root. Malnutrition, perhaps, brought on by a thousand years of a rodents-only diet. This makes sense to me, since some venom evidently stayed in the tooth, enough to "kill" the diary; if the fang came out at the root, perhaps it came off very close to the venom sac (or included it). Maybe basilisks, like sharks, have "replacing" teeth--if left alone, this basilisk would have grown a new fang. Given that the only weakness of these creatures is their eyes, having teeth that break off might be an advantage--instead of keeping their heads (and thus, their eyes) close to an opponent, the fangs break off, allowing the head to be withdrawn to a safe distance until the venom does its work. Maybe the advanced age of this basilisk has weakened its teeth. Maybe the structural strength of basilisk fangs does not lend itself to that type of stress--while your dentist is correct, and teeth are the hardest material in our body, they do have internal structure. Cats' canine teeth, for instance, are designed to act like knives; when they bite into a small animal like a mouse and close their mouth, their jaw action causes those teeth to "cut" between the animal's vertebrae to kill it. Those teeth are built for that "horizontal" stress and stand up to it very well. However, they frequently fracture and splinter when too much "vertical" stress is put on them (direct upward pressure, such as occurs in our own up-and-down "bite"). Perhaps the basilisk's fangs are designed beautifully for the "vertical" stress of piercing, but when the "horizontal" stress of a snagged fang occurred (pulling back instead of up), the structure of the tooth was not built for this and could not withstand it. Anybody else? ~Amandageist From htfulcher at comcast.net Sat Mar 22 17:08:19 2003 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 17:08:19 -0000 Subject: Winky(WAS:RE: Another possible inconsistency *plus* Why Summon Winky? In-Reply-To: <20030322094108.8702.qmail@web14902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54128 Regarding Dumbledore's alleged anger at Winky, Alex (Malfoy Men are MM-MM Good) Fox wrote: > Dumbledore has mysterious ways, and that could be one of them. Also that explains the complete mental breakdown she's having. She is so terrified that Dumbledore, the kind wizard who took her in, will find out that she betrayed him! Not to mention the guilt that would accompany this. Good observation! > I always interpreted Winky's presence at Crouch's confession as an act of compassion on Dumbledore's part. Winky has been mourning for her lost position in the Crouch household ever since the QWC. We know that Dumbledore believes "The truth is generally preferable to lies" and that for Winky ever to move on with her life she must know that BC, Sr, is dead and that BC, Jr killed him. I don't have GoF before me, but my memory of Winky's reaction to the confession shows guilt only in having kept BC, Jr hidden all those years. When BC, Jr reveals that he himself killed BC, Sr Winky is shocked. I'll have to review it again, but I don't really see Dumbledore as angry at Winky in this passage. MarEphraim From artsylynda at aol.com Sat Mar 22 17:12:20 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 12:12:20 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] some questions about Sirius Black Message-ID: <50.1a115ba9.2badf374@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54129 Briony: > 1 - At the end of GoF, why does Dumbledore tell Sirius to resume his > human form while Snape and Mrs Weasley are in the hospital ward? Is it > more than just to let them know the truth about Sirius? Could > Dumbledore have some plan to clear Sirius? I'll try to answer some of these questions, but I can't manage all of them! Great questions!! Anway. . .Everyone with a grain of sense in the Wizarding World (that is, those not with Lord V. or those like Fudge who close their eyes to reality) knows Dumbledore is a very wise person, and if he trusts someone, that person is trustworthy (even Harry tries, from time to time, to trust Snape despite his grave misgivings, because Dumbledore insists Snape is on "our" side and he trusts Dumbledore). Dumbledore "exposed" Sirius, I believe, to start the process of clearing his name and to make the Order of the Phoenix truly viable -- Sirius will have an important part to play there, as will Snape and the Weasleys, from indications given in that scene. They will HAVE to trust each other, because they will be doing "undercover" work together, working against the hierarchy of the Ministry of Magic to bring about the fall of Voldemort. > > 2 - Now that Mrs Weasley knows about Sirius, what is she going to do > with this piece of information? How do we know she doesn't go to the > Ministry? She trusts Dumbledore -- and Harry. She won't go to Fudge because she lost all respect for him over the Dementor giving Barty Jr. the "kiss" before he was able to give more testimony, and because he refused to believe Harry. She hasn't had a lot of respect for Fudge in the past because of his lack of respect for Arthur Weasley (who could've gotten higher office in the MoM if he didn't enjoy his Muggle work so much). Molly Weasley is as firmly in Harry's corner as it's possible to be, IMHO, considering him one of her own children (I don't know what she's going to do about Percy, though!), and Sirius is Harry's godfather. She can probably tell there's a bond between Harry and Sirius (which constantly amazes me how quickly Harry went from not trusting Sirius to being delighted to have him as "family" -- Harry's an amazing guy). Since Molly knows Harry wishes he had a family of his own, I think she'll be more accepting of Sirius as a good guy, for Harry's sake, and because Dumbledore told them he's innocent of the charges against him. > > 3 - Rita Skeeter must also know, since she was in the ward at the time > (Hermoine caught her on the window sill). What's to stop her from > blabbing (apart from Hermoine's blackmail)? That's actually a great question. Wonder if her dentist parents will squash Hermione's pet bug during the summer holiday??? heehee > > 4 - Could Mad-Eye Moody testify that Pettigrew is alive, and a DE? > Remember, Pettigrew was with Crouch Jnr when they surprised him and > stuffed him into that trunk. Also an interesting question > > 5 - If word gets out that Dumbledore and Harry are protecting Sirius, > what could happen to them, and Sirius? You're just full of interesting questions! I don't know the Wizarding World laws, but I suspect they could get in serious trouble (no pun intended). But with Dumbledore's reputation and skills, I think they're pretty safe for now on that count. And Sirius seems to be good at staying hidden when needed. > > 7 - Doesn't Sirius have the right to any form of appeal, especially > since he didn't have a trial? They must have an appeal system since > Buckbeak got one. > Sirius didn't even get a trial -- how could he get an appeal? Their "justice" system seems to be rather "loose" in many ways. And Buckbeak's appeal was worthless -- it didn't happen, they were going to execute him no matter what. > 8 - Finally, have those imprisoned DEs been given some sort of special > power that would enable them to survive Azkaban with their minds and > powers intact? The Lestranges could not apparate to Voldemort's side > because they were locked in Azkaban, but this also means that they can > still apparate. In other words, they still have the powers they should > have lost while being exposed to Dementors. > > And what of their minds? Have they gone mad or what? If they are > insane, what use would insane DEs be to Voldemort? But Karkaroff and > Crouch Jnr. were still sane after a year or so in Azkaban, while "most > go mad within weeks." > > So do the DEs have some special capability that would enable them to > withstand Azkaban? > > I have no idea -- great questions, it will be interesting to see the answers! Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drusillamalfoy at gmx.net Sat Mar 22 17:02:46 2003 From: drusillamalfoy at gmx.net (Drusilla Malfoy) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 18:02:46 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Winky(WAS:RE: Another possible inconsistency *plus* Why Summon Winky? References: <20030322094108.8702.qmail@web14902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001201c2f094$dd2c76e0$0301a8c0@Sternenflotte> No: HPFGUIDX 54130 ----- Original Message ----- From: alex fox To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 10:41 AM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Winky(WAS:RE: Another possible inconsistency *plus* Why Summon Winky? Rona wrote: << I think that Dumbledore now knew why Winky came to work at Hogwarts. And that was for the sole purpose of deception and he was mad. Think about this, Dumbledore goes out on a limb to hire a fired house elf, who not only puts Harry in danger but the entire student body. I think that Dumbledore kind of wanted to punish Winky seeing how she helped Crouch Jr. Mind you Jr. was the D.E. who tortured Neville Longbottoms parents and countless others, and he wanted to let her see the possibilities. Wouldn't you be mad. Ok if I'm way off tell me. >>>>> Very interesting idea!! And , no, I don't think you are off! Dumbledore has mysterious ways, and that could be one of them. Also that explains the complete mental breakdown she's having. She is so terrified that Dumbledore, the kind wizard who took her in, will find out that she betrayed him! Not to mention the guilt that would accompany this. Good observation! Alex (Malfoy Men are MM-MM Good) Fox I don't agree with both of you at all. Remember, first of all, Winky never really accepted Dumbledore as her new master, she was extremely ashamed to be working for a man who has a whole "army" of elves working for him and not just one who really looks after him. She still concidered herself Barty Crouch's elf and hence her grief. I think that the fact that she could betray Dumbledore never even entered her mind. She was far more concerned about Barty Crouch, her master, whom she had lost. She was still devestated because she felt she had betrayed the Crouch-family. Furthermore, as I understand Dumbledore's character, he would never punish Winky in that way. I doubt that he even wanted to punish her at all. He just wanted her to see and accept the truth about her master. Given what kind of man Dumbledore is, he probably knew how much grief this revelation must have been to Winky anyways and would not have punish her in addition to that. Dru [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kelleythompson at gbronline.com Sat Mar 22 19:49:56 2003 From: kelleythompson at gbronline.com (Kelley) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 19:49:56 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Announcement -- Pickled Toadies! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54131 Hello, everyone, The Mods, Elves, and Geists are happy to announce an event created by Haggridd: The Pickled Toadies Nominations are now being accepted for the first annual "Pickled Toadies", named after Gilderoy Lockhart's famous singing valentine. Any listee is eligible. Submit your nominations for best filk in three categories: best filk based on a rock & roll song; best filk based on a show tune; best filk based on other music. Please post your nominations to OT-C. Further activity on the 2003 Pickled Toadies will be on that list as the most appropriate forum for this endeavor. Hope to see your nominations on OT-Chatter! --Kelley, for the Mods From gingerssnape1966 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 22 20:16:26 2003 From: gingerssnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingerssnape1966) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 20:16:26 -0000 Subject: Basilisk fang In-Reply-To: <002301c2f094$af8bdc80$9905a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54132 > Lynda asked: > > > In the Chamber of Secrets fight between Harry and the Basilisk, the > snake's > > fang BREAKS OFF in skinny little Harry's arm. The fang of a 60 foot long > > snake, it seems to me, would probably be about as big around as Harry's > arm > > would be at that age, or bigger. So why did it break off? Me: I realize this is coming from off in left field, but it was Harry's right arm that was "deboned" and then "reboned". I checked to see if they mentioned which arm the basilisk fang ended up in, but it didn't say. It came off as Harry was driving the sword into its mouth, which would probably be a two-handed endeavor, especially considering Harry's size. I reenacted the driving of the sword (in the privacy of my bedroom) and my left (dominant) hand was on top. As Harry is right-handed, his right would have been on top, so it was probably the one the fang "bit". Perhaps skele-gro has some sort of side-effect which strengthens bones beyond their normal density. Too bad Hermione was petrified. It'd be safe to ask her parents. Very safe, as they're both dentists. ;) Ginger From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Mar 22 20:18:45 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 20:18:45 -0000 Subject: Basilisk fang In-Reply-To: <002301c2f094$af8bdc80$9905a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54133 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > Lynda asked: > > > ... the Basilisk, ...fang BREAKS OFF in skinny little Harry's arm. > > The fang would ... be ...as big around as Harry's arm ... > > So why did it break off? > > Amandageist: > ...edited... > Perhaps the basilisk's fangs are designed beautifully for the > "vertical" stress of piercing, but when the "horizontal" stress of > a snagged fang occurred (pulling back instead of up), the structure > of the tooth was not built for this and could not withstand it. > > Anybody else? > > ~Amandageist bboy_mn: Amandageist, I think you've hit on the answer exactly. Let's also remember that since this is a tooth that delivers venom, it is hollow, not solid like a human tooth. I'm reminded of a simple science experiment where a simple common paper soda straw is thrust into a hard potato. Logic would say that it couldn't be done, that a paper straw is just too soft, but it can be done very easily. One of the factors that comes into play that allows this is exactly what Amandageist said; vertiacal strength. You cap your finger of over the end of the straw and that seals the air inside, as soon as the straw hits the potato the other end is sealed trapping the column of air inside making the straw ridgid. The second thing is momentum. You can't press the straw against the potato and start pushing harder and harder in hopes that it will eventually be hard enough to penetrate the potato, but the straw will bend before that happens. You have to make a fast straight thrust of the straw at the potato, and the momentum allows it to penetrate the potato before it has time to break. Another factor is that if you thrust downward and don't hit the potato straight on, if you are at the slightest angle, the straw will bend and break. This illustrates the fang perfectly. Snakes strike fast, sometime almost too fast to see, that gives them the momentum the need to penetrate even hard bodies. The thrust is straigh down, then straight back out; no lateral stress. So combining the tooth being hollow with the lateral stress, I can very easily see it breaking. When Harry stabbed the snake throught the head, it probably went limp immediately and dropped. That sudden shift in the weight of the snakes head would have caused a very high sharp peak in lateral inertia. This peak inertia would have also been a factor in causing the tooth to snap. I don't see it as at all unrealistic. just a thought. bboy_mn From kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au Sat Mar 22 13:02:20 2003 From: kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au (kenney) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 13:02:20 -0000 Subject: book covers is pensieve i think Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54134 "karywick" wrote: Since the pensieves substance was mercury-like it would also reflect light like a mirror. I also think that is why he would appear to be left handed and all that candles would appear to be backward and his glasses would appaer to reflect imiage or shine back light. So he doesn't necessarily haveto be in a room with many doors, just have to me in someone or Dombleore's memory room with many doors. That is if you accept my idea. Kary me: I do! (Raises hand high in the air) That would satisfy my thirst for substance in the Harry Potter covers... I'm the guy who thinks the covers and titles are fraud... (Everyone says... 'Huh?') Yes, I think they are fraud as they look like they have no substance... However, if UK Fawkes was on a black background and had something other than yellow for the theme, I would less likely vomit over my copy. Your theory has put a stop to all that! Thankyou for you theory! >From Mr Harry Potter's Key Who has a theory; it could be bunnies! From andie at knownet.net Sat Mar 22 21:02:28 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 21:02:28 -0000 Subject: Magic Room - again Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54135 Hi everyone, Sorry to go back to the magic room idea again, but does anyone think that it's possible that the magical room is Dumbledore's Office? It is a circular room and all. Harry has been there many times before, but I'm convinced that it certainly must have some additional magical components than what we have seen thus far. Sorry if this has been brought up already! grindieloe From mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com Sat Mar 22 21:48:27 2003 From: mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com (mr_ed732000) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 21:48:27 -0000 Subject: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: <20030322033750.55031.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54136 My silly suggestion as to why the boy at issue is Harry: * A quote alleged to appear in the first chapter OofP reads: "The hottest day of the summer so far was drawing to a close and a drowsy silence lay over the large, square houses of Privet Drive. . . The only person left outside was a teenage boy who was lying flat on his back in a flower bed outside number four." * An actual quote in GoF (pp 4-5, American hard-bound edition) reads: "The wealthy man who owned the Riddle House these days neither lived there nor put it to any use; they said in the village that he kept it for 'tax reasons,' though nobody was very clear what these might be. The wealthy owner continued to pay Frank to do the gardening, however. Frank was nearing his seventy-seventh birthday now, very deaf, his bad leg stiffer than ever, but could be seen pottering around the flower beds in fine weather, even though the weeds were starting to creep up on him, try as he might to suppress them." My "logic" is as follows: 1) if pottering is something one does in flower beds; and 2) if Harry's only living relatives are named Dursley; THEN the only possible unnamed character otherwise doing nothing in a flower bed must be Harry. Do you see any flaws in that reasoning? :0) Not so sincerely yours, Mr. Ed (who asks this genuine question about Frank Bryce: who is this guy? and why does Harry's dream at the beginning of GoF seem to take place largely from Frank's perspective?) From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Sun Mar 23 00:01:18 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 00:01:18 -0000 Subject: Some questions about Sirius Black (some FF) In-Reply-To: <000301c2f04e$71874140$c7a7a7cb@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54137 Briony wrote: > I have read rumours that Sirius will return to Azkaban, and Harry > goes to save him. In another fanfic, the Dementors are > removed behind Fudge's back, and replaced with giants. Or even, since dementors have been known to ally themselves with Voldemort, they are removed from their posts and replaced by Giants. Either way, this could be a great way to set up an interesting situation: Harry goes to save Sirius from the guarded-by-giants Azkaban... and who better to bring with him than Hagrid, Hogwarts Embassador to the Giants. But during a scuffle, Hagrid is killed. (Which leaves Harry dealing with *twofold* guilt - (1) not saving Hagrid, and (2) Hagrid's life being sacrificed in an attempt to save Sirius - which could leave Harry wondering if he chose one trusted friend's life over the other. > [question about imprisoned DEs] This makes me wonder about the Dementors desire to keep these DEs in Azkaban if dementors are potentially allied with Voldemort. Doesn't this set it up to make it easier for these DEs to escape? And a question of my own: If Sirius is re-imprisoned, why would he need Harry's help to break free? (He's already proven he is able to escape on his own.) - Nobody's Rib (who hopes that Crookshanks will eat Beetle!Rita Skeeter) From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Sun Mar 23 00:25:40 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 00:25:40 -0000 Subject: more on OoP cover (was Re: Two comments) In-Reply-To: <003601c2f089$e63935d0$7094c318@amy9kgdax8rjp4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54138 cantoramy wrote: > > > OOP bookcover. > > I don't know why, but my first thought was that the MG cover was > just a "mock up" and that the colors would be added in before the > actual printing. As someone who works in publishing, I very much doubt that they would release non-finished book images. As much as HP fans are dying to know *anything* about the next book, Scholastic isn't in a place where they need to release info in order to keep the buzz alive. I mean, does anyone doubt that OoP will be an immediate best seller? > All that blue made everything hard to discern. At this point I'm willing to trust MG's reasons for having such a monotone book cover. Considering its differences from past covers, I'm assuming that there is some reason for changing from past norms. > I'm sure that Scholastic is getting responses to the cover and if > enough people ask for it to be a little more "accessible," they > could simply print colored covers. I'd hope that Scholastic, JKR, and GP would be more concerned with putting out a product that they are proud of and happy with than they are concerned about pleasing the fans. I can't imagine a boycott of the books based on lack of cover-art satisfaction. Also, I'm sure that MG either created a few sample ideas and that JKR and Scholastic chose their favorite OR that JKR asked for a specific image for the cover. And knowing JKR's attention to detail, I cannot imagine her letting a change-from-the-norm just "slip" past her attention. JKR and Scholastic have their reasons for choosing this cover... and considering that none of us have actually read the book (while the people in charge of the cover have read it) I cannot imagine them spending the money to change it based solely on fans' requests. > After all, they have 3 months. In the publishing world, three months isn't all that much time to make changes. At this point in time, I imagine that the books are at least in their final formatted version, if not already being printed up. Yes, if they realized that "Hairy" appeared instead of "Harry" on every page, they would go back and fix this error, but it would take a large situation like that in order to go through the costly process of changing the books. In addition, it's not just the book covers that have to be changed. There are all sorts of marketing materials (posters, bookmarks, advertising spreads for bookstores, etc.) that are made with the cover images, and these are released prior to the book release. (I haven't been in a bookstore recently, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of this stuff was already up.) Changing the book cover so that it did not match these marketing materials would look sloppy and unprofessional. I hope that none of this has come across too strongly. And, who knows, maybe I'm completely wrong and we will get a new cover. Or maybe, after reading the book, I'll be criticizing the cover. Won't know for three more months... - Nobody's Rib From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Sun Mar 23 00:50:56 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 00:50:56 -0000 Subject: Basilisk fang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54139 Lynda asked: > > > > > ... the Basilisk, ...fang BREAKS OFF in skinny little Harry's arm. > > > The fang would ... be ...as big around as Harry's arm ... > > > So why did it break off? > > > Amandageist suggested: > > ...edited... > > Perhaps the basilisk's fangs are designed beautifully for the > > "vertical" stress of piercing, but when the "horizontal" stress of > > a snagged fang occurred (pulling back instead of up), the structure > > of the tooth was not built for this and could not withstand it. > bboy_mn confirmed: > > Amandageist, I think you've hit on the answer exactly. Let's also > remember that since this is a tooth that delivers venom, it is hollow, > not solid like a human tooth. and added some physics. I believe also that the fangs of venomous snakes are hinged. They are normally folded away in the snake's mouth, and swing down as part of the strike. I guess that must make them very weak to stress which is at an angle both to the fang itself and to the direction that the hinge swings: that is, stress lateral to the snake's head, which could easily occur when the dead Basilisk falls on Harry. David From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Sun Mar 23 01:55:20 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 01:55:20 -0000 Subject: OoTP book covers & interpretations In-Reply-To: <000901c2f04b$1d14a1a0$fc8402c7@home> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54140 "BoBaFeTT" wrote: "Earlier someone stated it looked like the US cover was a reflection of harry due to him holding his wand in his left hand. But unless I'm wrong the standard door opens right to left and that's how they appear." ================================================================== Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; I have not really been keeping up with this debate, mainly because I have not compleatly understand it. From everything I have seen, the cover looks like a Phoenix rising from flame (the pictures on Bloomsbury "pre-order HP OotP", HP Lexicon). [On the Lexicon, it has a picture of both children and adults cover]. Admittily these might be the UK covers, but they are the only ones I have seen. Fred From bwerschkun at gmx.net Sat Mar 22 22:29:49 2003 From: bwerschkun at gmx.net (bwerschkun) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 22:29:49 -0000 Subject: Fawkes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54141 On the question whether Fawkes could be the animagus form of Godric Gryffindor, Martin wrote: "This raises issues of how much of the animal does a wizard become when in animagus form. (SNIP) Clearly an animagus bird would be able to fly, an animagus fish to breathe under water (Krum-shark in GoF) but what other powers? Could an animagus phoenix effectively become immortal if s/he stayed in phoenix form for ever?" and Sarah replied: "I think it's at least possible. (SNIP) As for animal/wizard powers bleeding into each other, I seem to recall that Sirius retained some of his canine qualities while in human form, though I can't back that up without the book here with me." Now me: On this issue we can look at the example of Peter Pettigrew and his rat animagus: At the beginning of PoA, when the kids are in the magical creatures shop in Diagon Alley, we learn that rats commonly only live for about 3 years. Yet, it later turns out that Pettigrew was able to live in his rat form for 12 years. In fact, Lupin even uses this as an argument when he is still in the process of convincing Ron that "Scabbers" was, indeed, "Peter". Hence, I assume that the animagus Pettigrew not sharing his animal form's usual mortality also means that a phoenix animagus would not share his animal's immortality... As for Sirius retaining some of his canine qualities while in human form: I also can't back it up, right now, but I think the reference is more of a general nature, along the lines of "resembling" the dog. This is also mentioned for Pettigrew, that even as a human something of the rat was still "lingering" in his face. I take this as an expression of the animal form of an animagus reflecting the respective human's personality (which we know it does from a Rowling interview). Another angle on the Fawkes/Godric connection was introduced by erisedstraeh2002: "I think there is strong support in canon for the theory that Fawkes was Godric Gryffindor's phoenix when Gryffindor was alive: (1) Fawkes is scarlet and gold, the colors of Gryffindor House. Harry's wand contains one of Fawkes' feathers as its magical core, and red and gold sparks fly from the end of his wand the first time he waves it." Me: However, Voldemort's wand also contains one of Fawkes' feathers and when he and Harry duel at the end of GoF, there is green light emerging from Voldemort's wand, while red light is from Harry's... I have always wondered about this: why does Voldemort have a wand with a feather from Fawkes? I mean, "the wand choses the wizard" and Fawkes is so closely related to Dumbledore and also appears to have some special connection with Harry, not to mention how he repeatedly comes to Harry's rescue against Voldemort - why would Voldemort, the heir of Slytherin and deadly enemy of both Dumbledore and Harry be chosen for a wand containing a part of Fawkes? Another question that has been occupying my mind for a while might have been discussed before, but I must admit I am too lazy to spend hours searching the exceedingly voluminous archives.... What is the story with the name "Fawkes"? I mean, there are these examples of characters' names being important and something of a give-away throughout the series (Remus Lupin, Sirius Black, "Sybil" Trelawney, Professor Sprout, just to name a few), I have difficulties to believe that a name like "Fawkes" should be chosen accidentally but also can't quite see where it's heading at. Many of you, who are British, will know this much better, but as far as I know Guy Fawkes was an English rebell a few hundred years ago who tried to throw over the ruling powers by setting fire to the parliament (or was it some government building?) but didn't succeed and "Guy Fawkes Day" is still being celebrated in England with bonfires as an expression of people being glad that they didn't lose their parliamentary system. Is that about right? So is the name Fawkes, as a mere symbol of "fire", only referring to the phoenix' ability to die and be reborn from flames? Or is there a deeper meaning implying rebellious and possibly destructive powers that the phoenix Fawkes is somehow connected to? And, being Dumbledore's pet, what would that mean for the story behind Dumbledore? I feel as if this was all pointing to some dualism in the sense of good and bad being two sides of the same coin (is this an existing expression in English?) and so forth, but at the same time both these sides, i.e. Voldemort and Harry, must be incorporated in Fawkes, because he gave the feathers for both their wands, and Fawkes belongs to Dumbledore, whom we know as the personification of the good side. I find this all very confusing, yet intriguing, and hope that same of you are able and willing to help me sort it out! My second-ever-post to this list (the first one was about one year ago). Barbara From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Sun Mar 23 01:56:09 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 01:56:09 -0000 Subject: Basilisk fang In-Reply-To: <1ab.128f9a80.2baded7e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54142 artsylynda at a... wrote: "In the Chamber of Secrets fight between Harry and the Basilisk, the snake's fang BREAKS OFF in skinny little Harry's arm. The fang of a 60 foot long snake, it seems to me, would probably be about as big around as Harry's arm would be at that age, or bigger. So why did it break off? =================================================================== Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; I may be wrong, but IMO, I think the fangs of the Basilisk works like the sting of a honeybee, once in the skin, they stay in place to continue pumping poison into the person attacked. Fred From stargaz77 at aol.com Sat Mar 22 23:04:56 2003 From: stargaz77 at aol.com (Linda) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 23:04:56 -0000 Subject: Moving Candles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54143 Hi, I am new here and this is my first post (I'm so glad to have found this site, by the way). I've been staring at the cover on and off for the last couple of days, and reading lots of theories, some really intriguing. But one theory no one has brought up, and it seems plausable to me, is the the candles themselves could be moving in a circular room around Harry. They look like they are floating out of the door on the left, circling around Harry, and floating back toward the door in the center. This would explain the difference in the direction of the flames, and also the blurred images of the candles. Harry has his wand raised in an upward position as if has just invoked a charm, or may be controlling the candles with his wand. I'm not sure what this could mean, I have a few ideas, but it is another idea to mull over. "Linda" From urbana at charter.net Sun Mar 23 01:59:18 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 01:59:18 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Bumblebee In-Reply-To: <000c01c2f04a$ace30340$0301a8c0@Sternenflotte> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54144 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Drusilla Malfoy" wrote: > > > My theory is that he transforms into a bumblebee. That doesn't fit in > > with his love of muggle sweets, bees prefer nector, but it does > > explain how he can get around Hogwarts unseen. A bumblebee in the > > dark would be invisible even without a cloak. > > > sirius kase > > I agree with you there. Expecially as "dumbledore" is, in fact, an old > Englisch > expression for "bumblebee", as JKR said in one of her many interviews. > And as we have a lot more talking names like e.g. Lupin > this would seem logical. > Hmmm....If Dumbledore IS an animagus, he probably was registered during the 19th century, when he was a young man... so Hermione would have missed seeing his name on the list of 20th century animagi... because he didn't become an animagus during the 20th century. So if DD can transform into a bumblebee, he *could* have been present when Hermione discovered that Rita Skeeter-Beetle had been spying on Harry and put Rita in that jar. So he *might* already know that Rita wasn't going to be around to do any more articles about Harry or the Tri- Wizard Tournament in the near future. If DD really is a bumblebee animagus, it would be very interesting if, at some point during OoP, he suddenly "appeared" at some point when HRH are discussing Rita's current condition ... Anne U (not betting the farm on this one, but it could be interesting) From m.bockermann at t-online.de Sun Mar 23 02:43:41 2003 From: m.bockermann at t-online.de (m.bockermann at t-online.de) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 03:43:41 +0100 Subject: book covers Message-ID: <00f301c2f0e6$085dbb20$410b9d3e@bockerma> No: HPFGUIDX 54146 Hi all! >>>>jastrangfeld wrote: I also wanted to say, that I see possibilities for Harry using the left hand: 1. he's looking back into a mirror. (would also explain why it looks like something is in the glasses (him + candles?) 2. He's using his left hand because it is in some odd way connected to the injuries he's received to his left arm, and the blood being taken from his left arm (isn't this the arm that regrew the bones?) 3. If he is looking into a mirror, could it be that the mirror would show some truth about what he is looking at, rather than a confusing image shrouded by deep magic? I'm reminded of Dumbledore's talking about the chamber pot room. If this is in Dumbledore's tower, perhaps it's connected to this previous bit of information from GOF? Another reasons why Harry would have the wand in the left hand would be: 5. Because his right hand is severly hurt. 6. He carries something in his right that needs some skill to manipulate. It seems as if he is only holding up the wand to illuminate the room, so he holds the wand in the left freeing his right to carry something else. Like a righthander taking a torch into the left when manipulating something. In short: there are lots of reasons why a right-handed person takes something into the left. And the illustrator might not bother that maybe wands work better in the "wand hand" and follow aestetic principles. Placing the wand into the left gives us an unobstructed view on it. >>>>aesob wrote: My take: the blue has something to do with ghosts. JKR has said we will learn more about why people become ghosts, and though I don't think Harry is a ghost here (as one other poster suggested), the bluish light certainly lends a ghostly quality, so ghosts might very well figure largely in the storyline. Also, look at the way "and the Order of the Phoenix" is written: it has a ghostly, ethereal, almost translucent look, and the dotted part of the 'i' trails just like the candles. I like your idea, that the "Order of the Phoenix" might be linked to ghosts. The Phoenix dies and rises again - that might relate to ghosts. Might there be some ghost rising up again? At least one ghost already *has* risen: Voldemort. Yes, you are right, he was not all dead so technically he did not rise from the dead. But still, he got a new body and from the end of GOF we can gather, that he will make plans to come back. We kind of always assumed that this Order of the Phoenix would be good or helpful for Harry. But if you think about the earlier titles they always refered to something that came as a challenge to him: the Philosopher's stone, the Chamber of Secrets and the Goblets of Fire all caused him some kind of trouble. Yes, the Prisoner of Azkaban kind off sticks out there. But for the longest time Harry thought in that book that Sirius was the villain, so it mentions a challenge as well. Wouldn't it be strange if all of a sudden, the title mentions something that's beneficial to Harry? Remember: Voldemort has another link to the Phoenix. His own wand contains a feather, too. The Phoenix is the symbol for eternal life, and that's something Voldemort seeks. I would absolutely *not* surprized, if the Order of the Phoenix is the name for Voldemort's followers who also rise again - like a Phoenix from the ashes. I have to look it up, but... do the deatheaters really refer to *themselves* as deatheaters? It sounds to me derogative to me and I can't really see Voldemort calling his faithful by this term. But The Order of the Phoenix certainly has some ring to it. Note that the scene of defeating death and eternal life shimmers through "deatheaters": those who eat death. Maybe that means they figuratively devour (meaning defeat) death, putting them in a camp with candidates for an Order of the Phoenix. The feather in Harry's and Voldemort's wand might be connected to the quest for eternal life. That would give Ollivander an extra incentive to go to Dumbledore and tell him about Harry's wand (as if having something in common with the murderer of one's parents wouldn't be bad enough). While playing havoc with conceptions... When my boyfriend glimpsed at the US cover, he said: "Oh, he is in a library". I said: "What makes you think *that*?" Him: "Well there are books behind those glass doors, those must be cabinets. You know, he is right, they indeed look like book cabinets. Cabinetdoors with windowglass that reflect the candles on the glass. But when you look right and left besides Harry's head, where we have an unobstructed view because those doors stand ajar, you see light vertical lines. So, those can't be reflections from the candles. Unless there are candles behind the "doors" (in which case we should see more of those rooms) there is something there. They have the right size to be books. Note that they extend up to differnt heights - because they have different sizes, but down they end at the same height - because they stand on a shelf. Directly next to his fringe the background is darker, indicating the wood of the shelf. Also: for doors to another room, they have strange proportions: not broad enough and they reach up too high. But they fit for book cabinets. And last but not least: I don't think that Harry is alone in the room. I doubt that he is looking into a mirror: why crane your neck for that an lift your hand? And his expression: somehow grim and urged, but still eerily calm and determined. For me it seems to say: "Shall we?" I would speculate he addresses one or both of his usual conspirators in havoc - Ron or Hermione. Well, what do you think? Greetings, Ethanol From larryngocnguyen at hotmail.com Sun Mar 23 03:03:37 2003 From: larryngocnguyen at hotmail.com (larryngocnguyen83) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 03:03:37 -0000 Subject: Do Wizards and Witches that live in the Muggle World pay Muggle Taxes? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54147 Hi my name's Larry, I like to pop in with a post every so often and I've been in this group for about three years now. I was just wondering if it's been discussed whether or not folks that have jobs in both the Muggle world and the Wizarding world paid both taxes to the Wizarding World, as well as the Muggle world of Britain. I guess, as it was mentioned in GoF, that the Weasleys don't really have any address that the postman knows of since there's the owl post, and that the British government really doesn't know that they exist, or where they live at least. You'd think the Weasley may have to hide their house from Muggle authorities so they wouldn't have to pay property tax. Yet Wizards that are muggle born will have social security numbers in the Muggle world and are probably checked by the muggle government. If that Muggle born wizard were to have a job in the muggle world, would he or she have to pay the muggle taxes every year--DUE IN APRIL? Obviously, income tax from an entirely muggle job would have to be paid, but property tax and other taxes? That was a bit of rambling. Perhaps, this is an arbitrary question, but I thought it might be something to discuss, since taxes are due in a few weeks. Thanks everyone! Larry, Larryngocnguyen83 at yahoo.com From amani at charter.net Sun Mar 23 04:52:50 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 23:52:50 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione can tie her own shoelaces (Re: Bad stuff for Hermione) References: Message-ID: <00b401c2f0f8$0ee77280$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54148 Kenney: I believe that since Rita Skeeter was a character created exclusively for GOF, we can speculate that her character was not around at the time Hermione's fate was decided (in a time before anyone knew what a 'Muggle' was- besides those of us who read Dahl). Me: But Rita /wasn't/ created exclusively for GoF: "I tried to put Rita first in Philosopher's Stone. When Harry walked into the Leaky Cauldron for the first time and everyone said - Oh Mr Potter you're back - I wanted to put a journalist in there - she wasn't called Rita then though but she was a woman." http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/tv_film/newsid_2353000/2353639.stm Also, making Hermione's life a living hell is a lot different than having a life-changing turn of events in her fate. Rita could cause some dirty damage without harming Hermione's more set-in-stone destiny set up by Rowling. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Sun Mar 23 04:59:12 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 04:59:12 -0000 Subject: DudleyDiscipline/WerewolfMoon/WerewolfBite/Cockroach/WizSecrecy/SiriusImmatur Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54149 Lady Farro wrote: << The few times that Dudley was ever disciplined were rare. ""Dudley was sniffling in the back seat; his father had hit him round the head for holding them up while he tried to pack his television, VCR, and computer in his sports bag." Chapter Three The Letters from No one Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone." >> I always thought that that was JKR showing how stressed out Uncle Vernon was (to the edge of insanity!), not as Uncle Vernon's normal methods of discipline. Unc Mark wrote: << Professor Lupin does not change into a werewolf until the group emerges from the tunnel from the Shrieking Shack. When the clouds part and he sees moonlight Lupin morphs. >> Consult the following resources: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/mysteries.html "Magical Creatures 1.Werewolf Transformations As they exit the Shrieking Shack, the clouds part to expose the full moon. It is at this point that Lupin begins to transform. If he only transforms if he sees the moon, why would he not just stay inside in a room with no windows during the time of a full moon? Yahoo Club Messages: 2216 Yahoogroups Messages: 2704, 2705, 2729, 2837, 3675,3685 2.Why doesn't Lupin Transform until the moonlight strikes him? Yahoogroups Messages: 17578, 17705, 17710, 17730,17737, 17778, 32386, 32624, 32644, 32725, 32732, 32744, 32746, 32761" http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/puzzles.html "Why did Lupin transform into a werewolf only when the full moon came out from behind the clouds? Don't werewolves automatically change shape at the full moon, whether or not there are clouds? And how long does it take to drink a potion? How could he have been so incredibly stupid as to forget to take it that night? JKR's partial answer: "The moon wasn't up when he entered the Shrieking Shack." (Sch2) This really doesn't answer the question, however. Of course, lycanthropy might easily work a little differently in the Potter universe. It is even possible that there are more than one type of werewolf, one that is mostly human and another that is mostly wolf. This is supported by the fact that we've heard that werewolves live in the Forest, which seems unlikely when they're normal humans most of the time." Alex Trin wrote: << Did anyone else notice that even though Sirius was bitten by Werewolfy/Remus he suffers no werewolf effects? As in BECOMING one? Does this have something to do with the Animagus effect? I thought that if you were bitten by a werewolf, you became one. Thoughts? >> I believe that it is an Animagus effect (as you suggest). I believe that a being bitten by a werewolf becomes a werewolf only if the being is human when bitten ... or possibly also if the being is wolf when bitten, and then becomes a kind of werewolf not mentioned in FANTASTIC BEASTS which is wolf all month 'round but its bite turns humans into werewolves. Jeremy Imhotep: << I have been wondering what exactly izards DO with their time. I mean, I know they must work and have jobs, but I can't think of there being enough non-muggle jobs for all of them. Here's my logic: >> Steve bboy_mn did a very good job of listing types of employment for wizards, and I believe that they make a LOT of things from scratch, not just by Transfiguration, such as carving broomstick sticks from wood and polishing them by hand and hand-tying the twigs on them... In addition, I believe that one of the NICE things about magic is that it very much reduces the amount of work that humans (wizards) need to do: magic does it instead. So most people can live the lifestyle of leisure that us Muggles associate with retired people. Most jobs would be part-time jobs. Happy Duck wrote: [[ Suggested that Dumbledore's Animagus form is a cockroach]] I think not, because JKR has confirmed in interviews that the Animagus doesn't get to choose his/her animal form, but instead the animal form is a reflection of his/her personality, and even used COCKROACH as an example of the animal form of an unworthy person. Dumbledore is surely the most worthy person rather than being an unworthy person. "" http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/October_2000_Live_Chat_Americ a_Online.htm Q: Does the animal one turns into as an Animagi reflect your personality? JKR: Very well deduced, Narri! I personally would like to think that I would transform into an otter, which is my favorite animal. Imagine how horrible it would be if I turned out to be a cockroach! http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm Q: If you were Animagus, what kind of animal would you be? A: I'd like to be an otter -- that's my favourite animal. It would be depressing if I turned out to be a slug or something. "" << Now, I also think that there might be some truth to the idea that people who can transform into animals can recognize other people who can transform into animals. >> So McGonagall knew all along that Scabbers was an Animagus? Is this part of Evil!McGonagall theory, or part of MAGIC DISHWASHER with McGonagall rather than Hagrid having heard prisoners raving in Azkaban the source of Dumbledore's secret early knowledge that Pettigrew was still alive, therefore had faked his death, therefore was a servant of the Dark Lord? Finwitch wrote: << Some questions: One he's already asked - Why do wizards hide from Muggles? - but Hagrid probably wasn't the right person to answer... I mean really - if Muggles would seek magic as an easy answer, wizards can just refuse, right? Honestly, if a muggle i.e. points a gun at said wizard, the wizard could turn that gun into a flower or something... >> Regardless of what wizards tell themselves about how superior they are to Muggles, the reason that the wizards hide is because they're SCARED Of Muggles. When it comes to Magical History, I have more faith in Professor Binns's accuracy than in Hagrid's. In CoS, Binns said: "You all know, of course, that Hogwarts was founded over a thousand years ago - the precise date is uncertain - by the four greatest witches and wizards of the age. The four school Houses are named after them: Godric Gryffindor, Helga Hufflepuff, Rowena Ravenclaw, and Salazar Slytherin. They built this castle together, far from prying Muggle eyes, for it was an age when magic was feared by common people, and witches and wizards suffered much persecution." Let me repeat: "witches and wizards suffered much persecution." It seems to me that wizarding schools are just as good as Muggle schools at teaching self-flattering lies to children. In this case, that the reason for hiding from Muggles is to avoid being pestered when it really is fear of persecution. That Muggle persecution of magical people is useless because the magical people have the Flame-Freezing Charm, when it is really quite dangerous if the Muggles get hold of a mage without his wand, sneak up on him and jump him with more numbers of assailants than he can Curse before they get his wand away from him, and then tie him up, THEN burn him. While I have the notion firmly in my head that Salazar Slytherin was a bad guy and surely at least partly a racist, Binns's statement was: "He disliked taking students of Muggle parentage, believing them to be untrustworthy." Simply a security precaution, fear that the Muggleborn students might let information about Hogwarts and wizards leak to their Muggle relatives, who would then spread the info to other Muggles, some of whom would lead mobs of peasants with torches to kill the wizards. QTTA says that Abraham Peasegood (inventor of Quodpot) was one of many wizards who emigrated to the North American colonies in hope there would be less oppression of magic folk there .... It seems to me that their whole big deal of despising Muggles is part of a pattern of denial. Unwilling to admit that they are scared of Muggles, they build up and up and up their claim that Muggles are inferior. Chrissi Hendriksen wrote: << He just love it to proclaim his childish opinions against Severus Snape for Harry. This is my fundamental critic against Sirius Black. I?m convinced a man in his age shouldn?t act in this way. >> Sirius spent 12 years with Dementors in Azkaban, instead of spending those years growing up -- he may well have been 21 or 22 when he went in, so those are the normal years of maturation (I say this at age 45.5 looking back, not at age 33 congratulating myself on new-found maturity). He's lucky to still be *alive*, let alone sane; arrested development is only to be expected. From annemehr at yahoo.com Sun Mar 23 04:59:39 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 04:59:39 -0000 Subject: Two comments (one about Winky) In-Reply-To: <003601c2f089$e63935d0$7094c318@amy9kgdax8rjp4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54150 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Miller" wrote: > Hi. De-lurking after surgery (successful). Annemehr: Yay! Hope you enjoy continued good health! > > Two comments. > > 1. Concerning DD asking for Winky. > > I think that DD wanted Winky to hear from Crouch jr's own lips that he murdered his father. She knew that he was at Hogwarts and even though she was no longer his house-elf, she felt responsible for his escape. Working at Hogwarts was the only way she could be close to him, and maybe save him from danger if she found out about it. Hearing of the murder forced Winky to realize that her loyalties had been misplaced and now, perhaps, she will be able to function at Hogwarts. > Annemehr: Hmmm... interesting. I had never, ever considered that Winky knew that Fake!Moody was actually Crouch Jr. before this thread. Do we have any canon that proves that this is one of the family secrets she is keeping? As far as I can deduce, she would have witnessed nothing of Voldemort arriving at the Crouches' house as she was already sacked by then, so the only way for her to know that Fake!Moody was Barty would be for her to have seen through his polyjuice disguise. It seems quite possible that a house-elf's powers would enable her to do this, although she seemed to me to have been surprised to see him in Moody's office (though that could just have been surprise at seeing him in his true form, unpolyjuiced). > 2. OOP bookcover. > > I don't know why, but my first thought was that the MG cover was just a "mock up" and that the colors would be added in before the actual printing. All that blue made everything hard to discern. I'm sure that Scholastic is getting responses to the cover and if enough people ask for it to be a little more "accessible," they could simply print colored covers. After all, they have 3 months. > Annemehr: I hope not -- I like this cover! Actually, I would really love to have it printed on a black T-shirt! > Just some thoughts. > > cantoramy > > Me too. Annemehr P.S. I just always thought Dumbledore called Winky in to allow her to realize that she no longer need feel any bond to the Crouch family, so she could get on with her life. From catlady at wicca.net Sun Mar 23 05:03:00 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 05:03:00 -0000 Subject: Shropshire Gryffindor/Falling off broomsticks/Luplin-crystal ball/RitaSkeet Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54151 A second post because I couldn't fit enough in the title line of tht first post. Maria Gromova wrote: << I have a distinct impression Godric Gryffindor was from Shropshire. >> Where is Shropshire? All I know is that a poem I learned in high school was from A SHROPSHIRE LAD by A.E.Housman: 54. With rue my heart is laden For golden friends I had, For many a rose-lipt maiden And many a lightfoot lad. By brooks too broad for leaping The lightfoot boys are laid; The rose-lipt girls are sleeping In fields where roses fade. Steve bboy_mn helpfully replied: << I discovered that Shorpshire is a county south of Liverpool and west of Birmingham, and borders Wales on the west. >> Martin Soilleux-Cardwell helpfully replied: << Shropshire is a large county on the Welsh borders. Basically oval shaped with it's long axis aligned north-south, it runs along much of the upper eastern border of Wales, in the English west midlands. The River Severn, traditionally the ancient border between England and Wales (but not any more except in a few places) flows south through much of Shropshire's western section. >> Pip!Squeak wrote: <> << Incidentally, is he supposed to be 'Gryffindor' or 'Gryffin d'Or'? My CSE French (failed) would make this Godric of the Gold Gryffin. >> So the Shropshire theory doesn't contradict my deeply-held baseless theory that Godric Gryffindor was secretly a Welshman originally named Gryffydd Glyndwr. In my theory, Sais who couldn't pronounce nor even comprehend the name Gryffydd Glyndwr could see the gold gryphon logo on his surcoat and think he was trying to say: "Godric Gryffin d'Or". Especially if they were accustomed to "Godric" being a common name (logic suggests that that first Saxons a Welsh boy met would be those on the Welsh border). Altho' my friend puts the emphasis on the second syllable instead of the third, thus turning the I into a long I and the O into a schwa, thus pronounced Gryf FINDer, and claims he got the name by finding a gryffin. As for the North East connection, in my theory Helga Hufflepuff came from there -- a Danelaw origin goes well with her personal name -- and in my theory, Godric (after his life of itchy-footed adventure) was living there, married to Helga (with wizarding lifespans being what they are, I imagine a it was a third marriage for both of them), when the need arose to found a school of Witchcraft and Wizardry. Greicy wrote: << Weird how Dumbledore and Snape try to save Harry from falling off a broom, but I recall Angelina and Wood falling off in SS/PS and no one trying to soften their fall. >> I *think* that's movie contamination. The movie Quidditch games were full of violent fouls that Madam Hooch would have blown the whistle on and given the Gryffindors penalty shots. Mysmacek wrote: << More probably, it was just the other way round - he panicked because her glass orb looked so much like a moon. Don't forget moon is what he fears most ;-) >> I've always thought that the reason that Lupin fled from Trelawney's offer to tell his fortune was that he recognized that she was attempting to come on to him ... and that the reason that Trelawney most unusually came to Christmas dinner and immediately asked: "But where is dear Professor Lupin?" is that she came to dinner on purpose to pursue him. At least I have to give her credit for good taste in men, but she's probably three times his age... Mr Harry Potter's Key Or Kenney wrote: << I believe that since Rita Skeeter was a character created exclusively for GOF >> JKR said she wasn't. http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/tv_film/newsid_2353000/2353639.stm Q : Is the character of Rita the depiction of your relations with the press? JKR: Well I'll tell you the truth but I doubt very much that anyone's going to want to hear this. I tried to put Rita first in Philosopher's Stone. When Harry walked into the Leaky Cauldron for the first time and everyone said - Oh Mr Potter you're back - I wanted to put a journalist in there - she wasn't called Rita then though but she was a woman. And then I thought, as I was sort of looking at the plot overall, and I thought that's not really where she sits best, she sits best in four when he's supposed to come to terms with his fame. So I pulled Rita out of book one and planned her entrance for book four and I was really looking forward to Rita coming in book four. The first time ever, as I sat down to write book four, my pen kind of metaphorically hesitated to go for Rita because I thought everyone will think that she's my response to what's happened to me. Well people can believe it or not but the fact is that Rita was planned all along. And did I enjoy her a little more for what's happened to me? Probably I did - I probably did, yes. From lunalarea at hotmail.com Sun Mar 23 03:56:12 2003 From: lunalarea at hotmail.com (Verin Haley) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 03:56:12 -0000 Subject: Fawkes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54152 What is the story with the name "Fawkes"? Personally, I've always read "Fawkes" as a bastardization of "Phoenix". Possibly because I used to play around with the word and abbreviated it down to F-O-N-X, or FOX (Faw-ks). -Verin From bobafett at harbornet.com Sun Mar 23 04:57:32 2003 From: bobafett at harbornet.com (BoBaFeTT) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 20:57:32 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoTP book covers & interpretations References: Message-ID: <000901c2f0f8$b79bec80$cf8402c7@home> No: HPFGUIDX 54153 Fred wrote: "BoBaFeTT" wrote: "Earlier someone stated it looked like the US cover was a reflection of harry due to him holding his wand in his left hand. But unless I'm wrong the standard door opens right to left and that's how they appear." ================================================================== Fred wrote Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; I have not really been keeping up with this debate, mainly because I have not compleatly understand it. From everything I have seen, the cover looks like a Phoenix rising from flame (the pictures on Bloomsbury "pre-order HP OotP", HP Lexicon). [On the Lexicon, it has a picture of both children and adults cover]. Admittily these might be the UK covers, but they are the only ones I have seen. ================================================================== Hi Fred Well it was posted in the news that The american artist is the only one of the cover artist's so far that have read the book. Therefore the questions and theory's have been forming from her work. If you would like to see all 3 covers (UK child, UK Adult, US verions you can see them @ http://www.godrics-hollow.net/coverart.php Your Welcome -BoBafeTT Webmaster http://www.godrics-hollow.net Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sun Mar 23 05:06:25 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 05:06:25 -0000 Subject: "Where Is Master Barty Crouch?" (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54154 This is a filk based on the song "Where is Love?" from the Lionel Bart musical "Oliver!". The original music can be found at the following site: http://www.broadwaymidi.com/shows/oliver.html Where Is Master Barty Crouch? Scene: Winky is crying to herself after losing Bartemius Crouch, Jr. at the Quidditch World Cup. Where is Master Barty Crouch? Though his father is a grouch He let me take him to the Quidditch Cup And for his safety vouch. Where is he, Cloaked with Invisibilty? When the Stunning Spell hit us, I fell And lost Master Barty. Master Barty, you was bad; All the Wizards, they was mad. Thought I'd conjured the Dark Mark myself; Yelled at me; called me "Elf!" Where, where is Master Barty Crouch? -Haggridd From lorischmidt1 at juno.com Sun Mar 23 06:01:40 2003 From: lorischmidt1 at juno.com (ladyofmisrule2000) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 06:01:40 -0000 Subject: Another Krum possibility Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54155 Hey, all! I know I jumped into this discussion late, but I wanted to field your thoughts on the possibility that instead of transferring to Hogwarts (as suggested in some earlier posts), Viktor Krum joins the Vratsa Vultures Quidditch team? After all, Ms. Rowling tells us in Quidditch Through the Ages that the Vultures are "always willing to give new players a chance to make a name for themselves." And they are from Bulgaria, which is--I believe--where Viktor hails from. More importantly, it would allow Rowling to indulge in her admiration for Jane Austen with an Austen-like plot twist. Krum might take to writing Hermione from on the road. During the course of the ensuing epistolary relationship, Ron could stumble across a letter. Maybe he'd even discover a letter in which Krum rejoices over his team's victory over Ron's beloved Chudley Cannons. Can you imagine what his reaction would be? It's just a theory, but I wanted to share it and get your feedback. Lori From larryngocnguyen at hotmail.com Sun Mar 23 09:11:22 2003 From: larryngocnguyen at hotmail.com (larryngocnguyen83) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 09:11:22 -0000 Subject: Language barriers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54156 Hey Everyone its me again with another random question that probably was already discussed. It seems much of the words spoken for spells and magic like "lumos" or "accio" are based in Latin or greek phrases in a western speech vernacular. I wonder how Southeast Asian, African, or other non-western wizarding populations with drastically different languages are able to perform magic when the words spoken are european based. Are translations of the spells used, or is there a substitute that closely equals those words in terms of creating the same effect? Or do they use an entirely different system of language. It seems magic of HP is very western based--many of the wizards mentioned in the chocolate frog cards, or in history books focus on a European-based telling of history (not unlike many classes and publications in the US). Again, this may be rambling, but tell me what you think... LArry From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Mar 23 09:13:32 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 09:13:32 -0000 Subject: Some questions about Sirius Black (some FF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54157 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nobodysrib" wrote: > And a question of my own: > > If Sirius is re-imprisoned, why would he need Harry's help to break > free? (He's already proven he is able to escape on his own.) > > - Nobody's Rib Well, maybe Sirius *doesn't* really need Harry's help. The main reason why he doesn't escape is because he gave his word not to, secondly because there *will* be a trial and he can be free but not on the run. Third, giants might stop a dog where dementors don't. However, Harry doesn't realise all those reasons - he might just think he doesn't want to live without Sirius - or feels he can't. Harry won't get Sirius out - instead he gets a long lecture about the meaning of giving one's word, that Sirius - while happy of Harry's visit, is *insulted* that Harry thinks he'd break his word... -- Finwitch "It seems like sometimes even the best of us must break their word" - Dumbledore, CoS - on not expelling Harry &Ron.... From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Mar 23 10:16:53 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 10:16:53 -0000 Subject: Language barriers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54158 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "larryngocnguyen83" wrote: > ...edited... > ... words spoken for spells and magic like "lumos" or > "accio" are based in Latin or greek phrases in a western speech > vernacular. I wonder how Southeast Asian, African, or other > non-western wizarding populations with drastically different languages > are able to perform magic when the words spoken are european based. > > Again, this may be rambling, but tell me what you think... > LArry bboy_mn: The 'western' incantations are in the ancient dead language of Europe; Latin. But Asia has it's own ancient dead language that is even older than Latin, it's called Sanskrit. As an example, the Sanskrit word for 'illuminate' (to light up) is 'Samcakas' and 'Anandi' means happiness, enjoyment, or pleasure. There are Sanskrit dictionaries on-line. I think the Sanskrit language dates back 6,000 years or more. I'm sure there are equivalent languages in Africa. I assume that there is some core or root that the many African languages are built on, although I confess that I don't know what it is. In North and South America, I would assume that native magic is based on Inca or Aztec derived words. Although N. & S. American magic has been corrupted by European influences as well as African. The magic you find in the Caribbean and in New Orleans are a blend of Native American, French, and African. You may be suprised to know that in the real world (muggle) New Orleans there are many magic stores where you can buy various spells, charms, amulets, etc... based on this blend of native, French, and African magic. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com Sun Mar 23 11:05:09 2003 From: mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com (Edward Post) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 06:05:09 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fawkes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54159 Barbara ("bwerschkun") wrote: >However, Voldemort's wand also contains one of Fawkes' feathers and >when he and Harry duel at the end of GoF, there is green light >emerging from Voldemort's wand, while red light is from Harry's... I >have always wondered about this: why does Voldemort have a wand with a >feather from Fawkes? I mean, "the wand choses the wizard" and Fawkes >is so closely related to Dumbledore and also appears to have some >special connection with Harry, not to mention how he repeatedly comes >to Harry's rescue against Voldemort - why would Voldemort, the heir of >Slytherin and deadly enemy of both Dumbledore and Harry be chosen for >a wand containing a part of Fawkes? > >Barbara > And Mr. Ed thinks, in response: Wasn't Fawkes's feather chosen for Harry in terms of greatness and NOT with respect to its goodness/badness? Olivander said something to that effect in the beginning of PS. There's no denying that Voldemort is great.... I think it's interesting to note the primary example of conjuring the Dark Mark in the series so far was one when Harry's wand was the instrument used. In other words, Harry's wand is capable of doing "not nice" things. That Fawkes's physical existence is a symbol of raw power without any moral attachments is consistent with JKR's theme of choices being more relevant than ability. When we see the sentient Fawkes make a choice, e.g., in the Chamber, Fawkes chooses to help Harry even at the cost of working contrary to Riddle. That choice is based on something other than physical existence, because arguably, Fawkes is in a room with two people with equal physical claims (they are the only two kids chosen by wands made with Fawkes's tailfeathers). _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Mar 23 09:24:29 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 09:24:29 -0000 Subject: Language barriers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54160 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "larryngocnguyen83" wrote: > Hey Everyone its me again with another random question that probably > was already discussed. > > It seems much of the words spoken for spells and magic like "lumos" or > "accio" are based in Latin or greek phrases in a western speech > vernacular. I wonder how Southeast Asian, African, or other > non-western wizarding populations with drastically different languages > are able to perform magic when the words spoken are european based. > Are translations of the spells used, or is there a substitute that > closely equals those words in terms of creating the same effect? Well, in Finnish translations the spells are translated - "accio" is "Tulejo" - which is actually two words without a space. A phrase used by somone impatiently waiting... Most of the other spells are also translated... AK-curse is only exception I recall. -- Finwitch From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Sun Mar 23 10:03:01 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 10:03:01 -0000 Subject: Language barriers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54161 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "larryngocnguyen83" wrote: > Hey Everyone its me again with another random question that probably > was already discussed. > > It seems much of the words spoken for spells and magic like "lumos" or > "accio" are based in Latin or greek phrases in a western speech > vernacular. I wonder how Southeast Asian, African, or other > non-western wizarding populations with drastically different languages > are able to perform magic when the words spoken are european based. > Are translations of the spells used, or is there a substitute that > closely equals those words in terms of creating the same effect? > LArry I would imagine that since there is more than one spoken language in the world, there would also be more than one spell-language in the world. The only reason I can see for using latinate language for magic is that the language would have evolved from medieval times when Latin was the 'scholarly language' throughout Europe. Also, I always had the feeling, although I don't think there is any cannon to support this, that the words themselves are less important than the intent. That is, for a spell such as 'Lumos', it would be theorhetically possible to say 'light' and it would work as long as the intent and belief was there. Just an idea. Mlle Bienvenu (who is new to the board and is enjoying the in depth conversations here) From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Mar 23 10:03:22 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 10:03:22 -0000 Subject: Who is the boy?/Frank Bryce/Harry's scar-dreams In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54162 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mr_ed732000" wrote: > My silly suggestion as to why the boy at issue is Harry: > > * A quote alleged to appear in the first chapter OofP reads: > > "The hottest day of the summer so far was drawing > to a close and a drowsy silence lay over the large, > square houses of Privet Drive. . . The only person > left outside was a teenage boy who was lying flat > on his back in a flower bed outside number four." > > * An actual quote in GoF (pp 4-5, American hard-bound edition) > reads: > > "The wealthy man who owned the Riddle House these > days neither lived there nor put it to any use; > they said in the village that he kept it for 'tax > reasons,' though nobody was very clear what these > might be. The wealthy owner continued to pay Frank > to do the gardening, however. Frank was nearing his > seventy-seventh birthday now, very deaf, his bad leg > stiffer than ever, but could be seen pottering around > the flower beds in fine weather, even though the weeds > were starting to creep up on him, try as he might to > suppress them." > > > My "logic" is as follows: 1) if pottering is something one does in > flower beds; and 2) if Harry's only living relatives are named > Dursley; THEN the only possible unnamed character otherwise doing > nothing in a flower bed must be Harry. > > Do you see any flaws in that reasoning? :0) > Not so sincerely yours, > > Mr. Ed (who asks this genuine question about Frank Bryce: who is > this guy? and why does Harry's dream at the beginning of GoF seem > to take place largely from Frank's perspective?) Well, Ok. Harry Potter was pottering a flower-bed (what ever that pottering is), something happened, so now there's Harry_Potter_in the flowerbed... Sure. Not to mention that Harry IS the most likely person to be there anyway. And why's Harry's dream-vision centered around Frank Bryce? They're not relatives; Yet there is *some* sort of connection, though not exactly to Harry: Frank Bryce is black and suspected of murder he didn't do - then there's Sirius Black who's also an "innocent" murder- suspect... But indeed, *why* is it from Frank Bryce's perspective? Harry's only other scar-dream was from an Eagle-Owl's perspective. Hmm... Harry sees and hears things in a dream from a perspective of someone who's there, but isn't Voldemort nor Pettigrew. I see some sort of similarity between Frank Bryce/Sirius Black Some sort of similarity between Eagle Owl/Hedwig -- Finwitch From realbadger at earthlink.net Sun Mar 23 04:48:38 2003 From: realbadger at earthlink.net (Badger) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 04:48:38 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Cockroach Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54163 Re: Dumbledore Cockroach Theory siriuskase: << I agree that [Dumbledore] must be an animagus. I just can't accept that such a powerful wizard, a headmaster who once once the transfig teacher wouldn't be. >> In PoA, Hermione states to Lupin that they studied (about) Animagi, not any teachings of how to go about doing animal transformations (yet). It is possible the students are not actually *taught* animagus skills (although this could be an elective course for later year students). Hermione continues, there have only been seven Animagi this century. She had looked up Professor McGonagall in the MoM Animagi register. One would think (as she'd accurately remembered not noticing the name Peter Pettigrew) that she would recall seeing Dumbledore's name. Might Dumbledore hinmself be an *unregistered* Animagus...? Dumbledore himself later seemed almost amused at learning how James, Sirius and Peter had managed to keep secret from him that they'd learned to become Animagi. In our own Muggle world, there are those (who respect and honour the individuals'-freedom based precepts upon which the Founding Fathers gave us) who are fully aware of governmental intrusions of privacy and unlawful "requirements" (permission [license] to travel, "let me see yaw papuhss, pleaSe" identification, etc.) and have stopped using such unconstitutional public-controlling devices. Maybe in the WW there are more Animagi than of which we're aware. They also chose to (or found out they could) change into an animal, possibly for the sake of convenience or even just fun. "Why must the Ministry of Magic know? What business is it of theirs?" could/would be their argument. happyduck1979: >>Is there anything that sounds more disgusting then cockrach clusters? There has to me more to it then just a wizarding treat that we have not yet come accross anywhere else. siriuskase's reply: << I took it as a clue that Rowling was a Monty Python fan, a fact that she later confirmed. That is a really nasty sketch about the sweets (including Cockroach Clusters). but don't watch it if you couldn't handle Ron puking slugs, you won't be able to handle that guy who keeps throwing up. Or maybe Dumbledore is the MP fan? He keeps up with Muggle culture. Badger: As for the Monty Python sketch, the sketch itself was called "Crunchy Frog," and indeed, now that it is mentioned, many of the "confections" mentioned therein could have sprung out of (or into...) the WW. John Cleese plays a health inspector or such, Terry Jones the owner of the establishment. Cleese is alarmed at the names and descriptions (and/or "functions") of the products. Regarding Crunchy Frog, Cleese inquires if at least the bones have been removed. "Well then it wouldn't be *crunchy* would it?" Jones replies, also giving the entire description of it being one of the freshest, tiny frogs, "lightly killed," encased in whatever specific chocolate it was, and "garnished with lark's vomit." And Dumbledore was concerned getting a Bernie Bott's ear-wax toffee.... Other products mentioned could also spring from/into the minds of Fred and George; while the Jones chocolate products do not posses engorgement charms, one product (upon the first chew) does propel out iron spikes to pierce both cheeks.... realbadger, a loyal Hufflepuff and feeling surprisingly peckish at the moment.... geoffreygould.notlong.com From heidit at netbox.com Sun Mar 23 14:39:33 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 10:39:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore Cockroach Theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54164 Badger wrote: Hermione continues, there have only been seven Animagi this century. She had looked up Professor McGonagall in the MoM Animagi register. One would think (as she'd accurately remembered not noticing the name Peter Pettigrew) that she would recall seeing Dumbledore's name. Might Dumbledore hinmself be an *unregistered* Animagus...? **** She looked up the names from this century. We know from one of jkr's interviews that Dumbledore is 150 years old - whether that's his age as of book 1 or book 4 is unknown. But that certainly means that he could've been registered in the previous century, and thus not on the list Hermione saw. Heidi Tandy Ask me about Nimbus - 2003! More about the first international Harry Potter symposium at http://www.hp2003.org From urbana at charter.net Sun Mar 23 15:05:13 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 15:05:13 -0000 Subject: Fawkes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54165 > Barbara ("bwerschkun") wrote: > > >However, Voldemort's wand also contains one of Fawkes' feathers and > >when he and Harry duel at the end of GoF, there is green light > >emerging from Voldemort's wand, while red light is from Harry's... I > >have always wondered about this: why does Voldemort have a wand with a > >feather from Fawkes? > > And Mr. Ed thought, in response: > > Wasn't Fawkes's feather chosen for Harry in terms of greatness and NOT with > respect to its goodness/badness? ... In other words, Harry's wand is capable of doing "not nice" things. > Now Anne U: IIRC Harry's wand was *already made* when he walked into Ollivander's shop to buy a wand. Presumably Tom Riddle's wand was also already made when he bought it from Ollivander's in the late 1930s. So the questions I have are: 1) Does Mr. Ollivander make *any* wand already knowing that a specific wizard will come in and that that wand will choose that wizard? If so, the whole process of letting the (usually neophyte) wizard attempt to pick his/her wand is something of a charade. 2) Fawkes (whose age is indeterminate but we know he's ancient because he's been reborn many times) has given only 2 tail feathers, and those ended up in the wands that chose Tom Riddle--who later *chose* to become Lord Voldemort--and Harry Potter. I believe it's established that the Mr. Ollivander who made and sold the wand to Harry is the same Mr. Ollivander who made and sold the other wand to Tom Riddle (and not, say, a son or a nephew). So I'd also like to know whether Ollivander made these two wands at approximately the same time, knowing that Tom Riddle and Harry Potter *themselves* would eventually be chosen by the wands? Or did he make them at the same time knowing that the two wands would eventually choose two (as yet unknown to him) extremely powerful wizards? Or did he make them at different times using tail feathers given at different times?? Anne U (who begs forgiveness if these have been answered already in the archives but I don't have time to look them up right now) From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Mar 23 16:02:26 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 23 Mar 2003 16:02:26 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1048435346.24.93980.m10@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54166 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, March 23, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CST (GMT-06:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From patricia at obscure.org Sun Mar 23 17:30:04 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 12:30:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore Cockroach Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54167 On Sun, 23 Mar 2003, Badger wrote: > Maybe in the WW > there are more Animagi than of which we're aware. They also chose to > (or found out they could) change into an animal, possibly for the > sake of convenience or even just fun. "Why must the Ministry of > Magic know? What business is it of theirs?" could/would be their > argument. I think there are almost certainly many more Animagi than are registered with the Ministry. In two years (during PoA and GoF) HHR learned of 4 unregistered animagi (James, Sirius, Peter and Rita), more than half the number of registered animagi from the entire century. And those are just the ones our intrepid heroes ran into at Hogwarts. There must be many, many more running around thoughout the rest of the country. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From cantor at vgernet.net Sun Mar 23 18:14:59 2003 From: cantor at vgernet.net (cantoramy) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 18:14:59 -0000 Subject: more on OoP cover (was Re: Two comments) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54168 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nobodysrib" wrote: Big Snip > I can't imagine a boycott of > the books based on lack of cover-art satisfaction. Also, I'm sure > that MG either created a few sample ideas and that JKR and Scholastic > chose their favorite OR that JKR asked for a specific image for the > cover. I don't think there would be any sort of boycott, just comments, questions and whining (there's always whining) about the lack of multi-colors. Just as an aside, I think it is funny that with an extremely famous and well-run British Rail that the adult cover on the UK version is a photo of an American railroad engine. Quoting from the copyright page: Norfolk & Western Railway's Train, "The Cavalier", Leaves Williamson, West Virginia, on a Rainy Day, 1958. What, it never rains in England when the trains are running so they could take a picture? ;) cantoramy who has been on a train in England on a rainy day (oy, did it rain!) From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 23 18:28:56 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 18:28:56 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Taxes References: <1048419354.2880.4318.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001601c2f16a$10c70120$bb4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 54169 Larry wrote: >I was just wondering if it's been discussed whether or not folks that >have jobs in both the Muggle world and the Wizarding world paid both >taxes to the Wizarding World, as well as the Muggle world of Britain. Well of course canon is silent about whether the WW has taxes at all (and, if so, what sort of taxes they are). I think that for those wizard families who exist in "both worlds" ie where there are mixed relationships, then they would be liable for Muggle taxes to the extent that they are "in the system". If you are on the payroll of a Muggle company, then you would be liable for the usual National Insurance, PAYE, and the rest. If you live in a house with a Muggle address, you'd be chased after for council tax. And so on. But if you're not in the system, then it's not in a position to chase after you. I have the feeling for example that the MoM has an agent in one of the key Muggle ministries (such as the Cabinet Office) just to find out what's going on. But I don't think that person is going to be on the departmental payroll, and would be protected by spells that would make them unnoticeable. Likewise, if you have a house like the Burrow, it's just not noticed by Muggles, their vision just slides over it. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 23 18:44:48 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 18:44:48 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Secrecy and Shropshire References: <1048419354.2880.4318.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001b01c2f16c$48215060$bb4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 54170 Catlady wrote: >Regardless of what wizards tell themselves about how superior they >are to Muggles, the reason that the wizards hide is because they're >SCARED Of Muggles. When it comes to Magical History, I have more Very much so! I've always assumed that Hagrid's explanation to Harry was an example of what someone (Pratchett I think) has called "lies to children" - something that's not exactly true but is a workable approximation until you're ready for the _real_ explanation. I think that if the WW suddently became visible, then Muggles would certainly be beating on the wizards' doors for their problems to be solved, but if the wizards didn't oblige ("Wizard! Heal Auntie Marge's arthritis!" - "No!" - "If you don't, I'm going to burn your house down!" And so on. Or even worse "Wizard! Kill Saddam Hussein!" Or all sorts of possibilities that you will doubtless thing of). >It seems to me that their whole big deal of despising Muggles is part >of a pattern of denial. Unwilling to admit that they are scared of >Muggles, they build up and up and up their claim that Muggles are >inferior. I don't think that the two are necessarily counterposed. To a wizard, a Muggle is certainly "impaired", in the sense that they don't have an ability that's basic to a wizard, and the dark siders use that as a jumping off point for their conspiracies to world domination (as it were). But I think that if they were successful, there would be a combination of terror and Imperio to make sure that the Muggles didn't fight back. "Prime Minister! Deliver 1000 Muggles to Malfoy Manor by tomorrow morning for the purpose of field labour!" - "Yes Sir". And so on... >So the Shropshire theory doesn't contradict my deeply-held baseless >theory that Godric Gryffindor was secretly a Welshman originally >named Gryffydd Glyndwr. >In my theory, Sais who couldn't pronounce nor even comprehend the >name Gryffydd Glyndwr could see the gold gryphon logo on his surcoat >and think he was trying to say: "Godric Gryffin d'Or". Especially if >they were accustomed to "Godric" being a common name (logic suggests >that that first Saxons a Welsh boy met would be those on the Welsh >border). I think that theory is a difficult one to sustain. The name "Gruffudd" (as it is spelt in Welsh) actually has an English equivalent - Gervaise, as well as an easy pronunciation - Griffith. In the Founders' time, the neighbours wouldn't have seen it written down anyway. Gruffudd at the time would of course also have been "ap Glyndwr" as we are talking about a time before the 16th century. Finally, at the time of the Founders, Shropshire was actually part of Wales so the neighbours wouldn't have had any difficulty with the pronunciation. Welsh was spoken there as late as the 19th century. Godric (like Helga and Rowena) is as far as I know a name of Germanic rather than Celtic origin. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From catlady at wicca.net Sun Mar 23 20:41:12 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 20:41:12 -0000 Subject: "Pottering Around"/FawkesWands/not-seeBurrow/Griffith Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54171 Finwitch wrote: << Harry Potter was pottering a flower-bed (what ever that pottering is), >> 'To potter around' is to rather slowly fiddle around with things, pretending to be working. It's usually used for people who are slow and largely useless for reasons of age or bad eyesight rather than for laziness. << Frank Bryce is black >> He is? I missed that. Anne U wrote: << So I'd also like to know whether Ollivander made these two wands at approximately the same time, knowing that Tom Riddle and Harry Potter *themselves* would eventually be chosen by the wands? Or did he make them at the same time knowing that the two wands would eventually choose two (as yet unknown to him) extremely powerful wizards? Or did he make them at different times using tail feathers given at different times?? >> Canon hasn't told us, but I feel sure that he makes the wands based on what seems like a good thing to do with the wood and core that is available at the time (well, he might wait for the RIGHT wood for THIS core to come along) and with no idea what wizard will end up with the wand. Ffred wrote: << if you have a house like the Burrow, it's just not noticed by Muggles, their vision just slides over it. >> Except when they are driving taxies summoned by Molly ... << The name "Gruffudd" (as it is spelt in Welsh) actually has an English equivalent - Gervaise, as well as an easy pronunciation - Griffith >> I think "Gervaise" is not very similar in sound to Griffith. A name familar from Los Angeles's largest park, Griffith Park, which is not named after D. W. Griffith the filmmaker. It's named after some colonel who murdered his wife and arranged to have the charges dropped in exchange for donating his estate to the city... GRIFFIth ap gleNDOweR = GRIFFINDOR, thought to be Gryphon d'Or << Finally, at the time of the Founders, Shropshire was actually part of Wales so the neighbours wouldn't have had any difficulty with the pronunciation. >> My theory originally didn't mention Shropshire, just Saxons men-at-arms he joined up with for a while. << Godric (like Helga and Rowena) is as far as I know a name of Germanic rather than Celtic origin. >> And Salazar is a Hispanic/Iberian name, now days found among all Spanish and Portuguese speaking nations, but originally Basque for "Old Hall" and the name of the Valle de Salazar in Navarre in the Pyrenees. So I have to make up fanfic to explain how (at least) one of the Founders originally had a Celtic name, and in my crystal ball vision it's Godric. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Mar 23 21:06:47 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 21:06:47 -0000 Subject: Do Wizards and Witches... pay Muggle Taxes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54172 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "larryngocnguyen83" wrote: > .... whether ... folks that have jobs in both the Muggle world and > the Wizarding world paid both taxes to the Wizarding World, > ...(and)... the Muggle world of Britain. > > ...edited... > > Obviously, income tax from an entirely muggle job > would have to be paid, but property tax and other taxes? > ...edited... >Thanks everyone! > Larry, bboy_mn: They say that there are two things in life that you can never escape; death and taxes. The only way you /might/ get out of paying taxes it to live totally in the wizard world, but even then it would be difficult. Take the Weasleys, they seem to live very separate from the muggle world, yet, I asssume, they own the Burrow. To own it, they had to buy it. If they bought it then there is a public record of the sale. The reason there is a public record is so the tax man knows who to send the property tax bill to. Once the tax man has your name, then they have some type of tax ID number. The tax ID number will then tell them that Mr. Weasley is in his 70's (roughly) and has never filed an income tax return. Then as they say, the fertilizer will hit the ventilator. There really is no way to earn income in the muggle world without paying taxes on it. You can deal in an all cash business so there is no record of the earnings, but as soon as you start buying things with the money, you create a paper trail that will eventually lead the tax man to you. In the US now, it's next to impossible to buy anything with a large sum of cash. If you walk into a car dealer and want to pay for the car with cash, the police will be there before you ever get out the door, demanding to know where you got the cash. Any time a bank receives a large cash deposit or withdrawal, the government is informed. Even if you are caught by the police with a large amount of cash (several hundred dollars), it likely the police will confiscate it until you can prove where you got the money. Banks today won't even cash a check anymore because it leaves no record of the cash. You have to deposit it in an account, then make a withdrawal from the account so the government has a record of the transaction. I think this is one of the harsh realities of life that we are suppose to suspend when reading the story. If JKR tried to account for taxes, the whole series would be an endless explaination of how they get around it to the point where there wouldn't be room for the story itself. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From debmclain at yahoo.com Sun Mar 23 21:17:54 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 21:17:54 -0000 Subject: book covers In-Reply-To: <00f301c2f0e6$085dbb20$410b9d3e@bockerma> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54173 Ethanol/m.bockermann at t... wrote > We kind of always assumed that this Order of the Phoenix would be good or helpful for Harry. But if you think about the earlier titles they always refered to something that came as a challenge to him: the Philosopher's stone, the Chamber of Secrets and the Goblets of Fire all caused him some kind of trouble. Yes, the Prisoner of Azkaban kind off sticks out there. But for the longest time Harry thought in that book that Sirius was the villain, so it mentions a challenge as well. > > Wouldn't it be strange if all of a sudden, the title mentions something that's beneficial to Harry? > > Me: Hmmm....very interesting. You are absolutely right, the titles have always been trouble. I didn't really think about it. However, perhaps this title sounded better than "Harry Potter and the Magic Room"? :-) > When my boyfriend glimpsed at the US cover, he said: "Oh, he is in a library". I said: "What makes you think *that*?" Him: "Well there are books behind those glass doors, those must be cabinets. > > You know, he is right, they indeed look like book cabinets. Cabinetdoors with windowglass that reflect the candles on the glass. But when you look right and left besides Harry's head, where we have an unobstructed view because those doors stand ajar, you see light vertical lines. So, those can't be reflections from the candles. Unless there are candles behind the "doors" (in which case we should see more of those rooms) there is something there. They have the right size to be books. Note that they extend up to differnt heights - because they have different sizes, but down they end at the same height - because they stand on a shelf. Directly next to his fringe the background is darker, indicating the wood of the shelf. > Also: for doors to another room, they have strange proportions: not broad enough and they reach up too high. But they fit for book cabinets. > Me: I have it wallpapered on my desktop, and only half of it fits the screen. However, it is the middle and I looked very closely - it definitely is candles, not books. They have flames. Although, the idea of books was pretty cool. > And last but not least: > > I don't think that Harry is alone in the room. I doubt that he is looking into a mirror: why crane your neck for that an lift your hand? And his expression: somehow grim and urged, but still eerily calm and determined. For me it seems to say: "Shall we?" I would speculate he addresses one or both of his usual conspirators in havoc - Ron or Hermione. > > Well, what do you think? I'm mixed about this. I originally thought someone was walking in on him performing some illegal ritual. After reading your post, I started thinking, yes, it could be Hermoine or Ron. BUT..... Harry is looking up, the person is obviously taller and has a light - Snape? As for the mirror theory, I believed this first, until I looked at his scar. It is exactly the same way on all covers. So, no, I don't think it's a reflection. Same with the wand being in the wrong hand. MG needed the wand in the wrong hand for artistic reasons. Kary wrote: >The light is coming in form the top. That happen when Harry fell in the pensieve if I remember, correctly. Help me with a quote please.Since the pensieves substance was mercury-like it would also reflect light like a mirror... he doesn't necessarily haveto be in a room with many doors, just have to me in someone or Dombleore's memory room with many doors.That is if you accept my idea. Me: I do like the thought Harry's in Dumbledore's pensieve - or perhaps someone elses???? Someone had mentioned he's at Malfoy Manor - perhaps Lucius' pensieve? Okay - here's the real deal. Originally, I thought Harry is in the Astronomy Tower, doing an illegal ritual and Snape walks in (on a very determined Potter). But now I think with all these doors - he needs to make a decision and pick one - possibly chosing what future he wants (like the lady & tiger story). WAIT!!! Perhaps Harry makes the wrong decision, which kills Hagrid/Sirus/whomever, and that's why Dumbledore lowers his hands from his "tear-streaked" face to tell Harry some information he never told him that would have helped him make a different decision. And yes, I added the "tear-streaked" in my own interpretation. God - how much longer until June 21st??? -Debbie Who started reading fanfic for the first time to whittle the time away until OoP, and has been astonished by the excellent reads. From gandharvika at hotmail.com Sun Mar 23 22:03:28 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 22:03:28 +0000 Subject: (FILK) The Boy Who Lived Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54174 The Boy Who Lived (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Superman_ by Five For Fighting) Harry: My name they all know Look to my forehead It happened long ago The reason Voldemort's dead I'm only a kid...I don't remember That fateful evening back in October It's not easy being me Can't let them see me cry Or let my feelings show The sadness I must hide For the parents I'll never know It seems so funny...and I was so shocked Was a hero before I could walk I'm only Harry...In a cupboard locked But a hero before I could talk It's not easy being me "It's Harry Potter...The Boy Who Lived Over there!"...Wish they all would stop staring I'm not special...or anything... My parents they died Won't see them again Somehow I survived Wish I could remember them I'm only a kid with this light'n scar But everyone thinks that I'm a superstar Only a kid with this light'n scar I wish I was as normal as you are As you all are As you all are Yeah, as you all are As you all are I'm only a kid The Boy Who Lived I'm only a kid Who would have believed? I'm only a kid With this light'n scar and it's not easy, hmmm, hmmm, hmmm... It's not easy being me -Gail B. who want to thank Melody for the idea for that one final rhyme. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From siriuskase at earthlink.net Sun Mar 23 22:35:30 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 22:35:30 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Bumblebee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54175 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Anne" wrote: > Hmmm....If Dumbledore IS an animagus, he probably was registered > during the 19th century, when he was a young man... so Hermione would > have missed seeing his name on the list of 20th century animagi... > because he didn't become an animagus during the 20th century. So if > DD can transform into a bumblebee, he *could* have been present when > Hermione discovered that Rita Skeeter-Beetle had been spying on Harry > and put Rita in that jar. So he *might* already know that Rita wasn't > going to be around to do any more articles about Harry or the Tri- > Wizard Tournament in the near future. If DD really is a bumblebee > animagus, it would be very interesting if, at some point during OoP, > he suddenly "appeared" at some point when HRH are discussing Rita's > current condition ... > > Anne U > (not betting the farm on this one, but it could be interesting) That would be a shock. McGonnagol is the only one who doesn't seem to be keeping her animagus ability a secret. Obviously, if one is unregistered, it must be kept secret and if one is registered, it is public record and not a secret to people who read the public records. I don't think that Dumbledore would be an unregistered animagus without a very good reason, but the fact that he has been around over a hundred years may mean that his registration record is no longer accessible, it's in a cardboard archive file in a dungeon somewhere so now he can be both legal and secret. Many of the important benefits of being an animagus depend on it being a secret, especially the ability to turn into an evesdropping insect like a roach or a bumblebee. sirius kase From catlady at wicca.net Sun Mar 23 22:44:06 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 22:44:06 -0000 Subject: Do Wizards and Witches... pay Muggle Taxes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54176 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > They say that there are two things in life that you can never > escape; death and taxes. I think the British wizarding gov't might not have any taxes, because it might have some better source of income. OTOH, it seems so appropriate for Death Eaters who walked free to get jobs in the dept of Internal Revenue... > > The only way you /might/ get out of paying taxes it to live totally > in the wizard world, but even then it would be difficult. Take the > Weasleys, they seem to live very separate from the muggle world, > yet, I asssume, they own the Burrow. To own it, they had to buy it. Buy it or inherit it. Or win it in a poker game. > If they bought it then there is a public record of the sale. Not if they bought (or inherited or won) it from another wizard. If the property has always been owned by wizards, there need be no Muggle record of it. > There really is no way to earn income in the muggle world without > paying taxes on it. You can deal in an all cash business so there > is no record of the earnings, but as soon as you start buying > things with the money, you create a paper trail that will > eventually lead the tax man to you. I am sure that the wizarding folk can delete that paper trail by magic. I am sure they can make fake ID by magic, and they can use Confundus Charms and Memory Charms. JKR indicated in an interview that Gringotts returns the Muggle money (that they get by exchanging) to the Muggle economy by fencing. Else I would think that a government to government arrangement had been worked out, not only for exchanging cash, but for giving wizarding folk a paper trail when they do business with Muggles. A money laundering arrangement! From briony_coote at hotmail.com Sun Mar 23 22:07:23 2003 From: briony_coote at hotmail.com (Briony Coote) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:07:23 +1200 Subject: Dumbledore the alleged bumblebee and Buckbeak's escape Message-ID: <000a01c2f188$94b91900$a1a7a7cb@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 54177 I've been reading this speculation that Dumbledore can turn into a bumblebee (or insect animagus) and it got me thinking about Buckbeak's escape. I always found it rather odd that the executioner finds Buckbeak gone, and Dumbledore seems to know how it happened. He tells them to search the sky, not the forest, where Buckbeak is stashed. But this is well before Dumbledore has Harry and Hermoine go back in time with the Turner. This has me thinking: did Dumbledore have a Time Turner as well, thus enabling there to be two Dumbledores that night? If the theory about Dumbledore being a bumblebee, who knew all those goings-on in the shack, is correct, could Dumbledore 1 or 2 have gone back to the Shack that night and overhear everything that passed in the Shack? However, he could not interfere, probably due to the rule about interfering in timelines. Could this be the reason why he was so willing to believe Sirius, or, for that matter, speak to him at all? And do you remember Pettigrew darting his eye to the window in the Shack? Did he perhaps see Dumbledore in his animagus form, and being an animagus himself, he could recognise Dumbledore? Could this be another reason why Pettigrew was so scared? Briony [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From briony_coote at hotmail.com Sun Mar 23 22:07:07 2003 From: briony_coote at hotmail.com (Briony Coote) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:07:07 +1200 Subject: Can the Marauder's Map be deceived? Message-ID: <000001c2f188$8c255ba0$a1a7a7cb@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 54178 I have three questions about the Marauder's Map: 1 - Why didn't Peter Pettigrew show on the Map during the years that the Weasley twins used it, or when Harry started using it? 2- In GoF, why did Barty Crouch Jnr show as "Barty Crouch" and not "Barty Crouch Jnr"? 3 - Why did Barty Crouch suddenly disappear off the map when he was right there in Snape's office, disguised as Moody? "Briony" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stargaz77 at aol.com Sun Mar 23 23:10:44 2003 From: stargaz77 at aol.com (Linda) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 23:10:44 -0000 Subject: Lily's sacrafice Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54179 In regard to the question, how does Dumbledore know that Lily was killed after James, there may have been a device in the Potter's home that kept them under survailence with Dumbledore. Keeping in mind that Moody has devices such as his foe glass, it is very likely that there are devices we the audience don't know about yet (such as JKR's comment that Harry will come across something better than the internet).Perhaps something was planted in their home. We still have 3 books left to explore the wonders of the WW, so there is likely to be an explanation. Hopefully, we will get the entire scoop in book five, as Dumbledore says "Sit down Harry, I'm going to tell you everything". I do hope he means everything! LindaG From siriuskase at earthlink.net Sun Mar 23 23:16:00 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 23:16:00 -0000 Subject: Basilisk fang In-Reply-To: <1ab.128f9a80.2baded7e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54180 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, artsylynda at a... wrote: > Basilisk is big enough to eat Harry whole. So what made Harry's arm "tough" > enough for the snake's tooth to break off in it (and I don't think Quidditch > is the answer here)? I know we've established that wizards are not as > fragile as regular humans (Neville bouncing after a fall, or just breaking > his wrist in that fall from the broom, for instance), but does that mean > they're actually "denser" in their body mass somehow (like rubber??)? > Granted, we're talking about fiction, but since we analyze everything in huge > detail here, I thought somebody might have an interesting idea about this. > > Lynda Hi Lynda, it isn't my intent to be a spoil sport so I don't want to stop discussion of this topic. However, I think that this is just one of those things that Rowling wasn't thinking about. In our frustration, we have thunk about things that Rowling ddin't intend for us to think about and may not have thought about herself. But I will give you my best explanation. I just suspend disbelief and take her word for it, Harry pulled out the big fang. This is kinda like the Mom who picked up the 2 ton car that was crushing the baby. (did it really happen or is it an urban legend?) People can be unusuaally strong sometimes. sirius kase From devika at sas.upenn.edu Sun Mar 23 23:35:29 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 23:35:29 -0000 Subject: Can the Marauder's Map be deceived? In-Reply-To: <000001c2f188$8c255ba0$a1a7a7cb@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54181 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Briony Coote" wrote: > I have three questions about the Marauder's Map: > > 1 - Why didn't Peter Pettigrew show on the Map during the years that the > Weasley twins used it, or when Harry started using it? My theory is that the Map only shows people who are relevant to the "mischief maker" using it. IIRC, when Harry uses the Map, it usually shows Filch, Peeves, Dumbledore, and others who might make it difficult for Harry to sneak around the castle. The map never seems to show all of the students in the school (at least, we aren't told that it does). This is probably because Harry really doesn't need to know that there are students in Gryffindor Tower or in other common rooms, for example. The Map only shows the people who are near to Harry or who might affect where he is trying to go. When Fred and George used the Map, they probably did not need to know about Ron and where he was or about people in Gryffindor Tower. Since Scabbers was probably in Gryffindor Tower when he wasn't with Ron, there would be no reason for him to show up on the Map. > > 2- In GoF, why did Barty Crouch Jnr show as "Barty Crouch" and not > "Barty Crouch Jnr"? We're never actually told that his name is Barty Crouch Jr. We usually just say that to avoid confusion between him and his father. He could have had a different middle name, or he may just have not had the suffix attached to his name. I don't think that Tom Riddle was Tom Riddle Jr., for example, even though he had the same first name as his father. > > 3 - Why did Barty Crouch suddenly disappear off the map when he was > right there in Snape's office, disguised as Moody? Harry didn't see the Map again after Crouch!Moody picked it up. Crouch!Moody was the one who said that he wasn't on the Map anymore, IIRC. Therefore, he could have been lying. It probably was important that Harry know who Moody really was, so the name Bartemius Crouch may have been on the Map right next to Harry's own name. However, Harry never saw the Map, so he had no way of knowing this. Now the question is: Where on earth is the Marauder's Map now?? Harry never did get it back. It has to be important in OoP, since now Dumbledore knows about it. He seemed rather startled to hear about it too. I wonder why that would be. Hmm... I know we've discussed this before, but hey, we have a lot of new members, and everything else has been discussed multiple times. Let's bring it up again :) --Devika From siriuskase at earthlink.net Sun Mar 23 23:47:18 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 23:47:18 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the alleged bumblebee and Buckbeak's escape In-Reply-To: <000a01c2f188$94b91900$a1a7a7cb@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54182 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Briony Coote" wrote: > I've been reading this speculation that Dumbledore can turn into a > bumblebee (or insect animagus) and it got me thinking about Buckbeak's > escape. I always found it rather odd that the executioner finds > Buckbeak gone, and Dumbledore seems to know how it happened. He tells > them to search the sky, not the forest, where Buckbeak is stashed. But > this is well before Dumbledore has Harry and Hermoine go back in time > with the Turner. I have heard a simple explanatin of this. While the others in Hagrid's hut were reviewing and signing the exection order, Dumbledore was standing by the window observing the doomed beast and hatching his great idea of sending H&H back to rescue it. So he had the idea hours earlier than he sent out H&H but he knew what was happening and he was there at the window acting like nothing wa going on outside and ready to redirect anyone who got too close. When I read the book, I thought they were just lucky that they wern't seen, but now that Dumbledore has a more active role, I see it wasn't just luck. This has me thinking: did Dumbledore have a Time > Turner as well, thus enabling there to be two Dumbledores that night? I thought of this but I don't like it because Dumbledore's time loop would be different than the kids and I can't visualize two interconnecting time loops that make sense. But just because I can't see it doesn't mean it can't happen, it's just a tad too complicated to be easily believed. > > Briony sirius kase From siriuskase at earthlink.net Sun Mar 23 23:57:34 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 23:57:34 -0000 Subject: Can the Marauder's Map be deceived? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54183 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Devika" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Briony Coote" > wrote: > > I have three questions about the Marauder's Map: > > > > 1 - Why didn't Peter Pettigrew show on the Map during the years > that the > > Weasley twins used it, or when Harry started using it? > > My theory is that the Map only shows people who are relevant to > the "mischief maker" using it. IIRC, when Harry uses the Map, it > usually shows Filch, Peeves, Dumbledore, and others who might make it > difficult for Harry to sneak around the castle. The map never seems > to show all of the students in the school (at least, we aren't told > that it does). This is probably because Harry really doesn't need to > know that there are students in Gryffindor Tower or in other common > rooms, for example. The Map only shows the people who are near to > Harry or who might affect where he is trying to go. When Fred and > George used the Map, they probably did not need to know about Ron and > where he was or about people in Gryffindor Tower. Since Scabbers was > probably in Gryffindor Tower when he wasn't with Ron, there would be > no reason for him to show up on the Map. I agree with what you write. I'd like to add something with regard to the question of which house the marauders were in. I'm sure Harry would just love to know the whereabouts of Snape and Drace, but they don't show on the map because they are hanging out in Slyteran land, a part of the castle that the manufacturers didn't have access to. > --Devika From kristen at sanderson-web.com Mon Mar 24 00:09:10 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (GKJPO) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 00:09:10 -0000 Subject: Can the Marauder's Map be deceived? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54184 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Devika" wrote: > Now the question is: Where on earth is the Marauder's Map now?? > Harry never did get it back. It has to be important in OoP, since > now Dumbledore knows about it. He seemed rather startled to hear > about it too. I wonder why that would be. > > Hmm... I know we've discussed this before, but hey, we have a lot of > new members, and everything else has been discussed multiple times. > Let's bring it up again :) > > --Devika Hey, I'm game, having brought this issue up before myself. Personally, I think that either the real Mad-Eye Moody or Dumbledore has the map now. Real!Moody being my favorite. I wrote about this in the post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/51377. Back to lurking Kristen From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 00:47:29 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 00:47:29 -0000 Subject: Do Wizards and Witches... pay Muggle Taxes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54185 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > > They say that there are two things in life that you can never > > escape; death and taxes. CatLady: > > ... British wizarding gov't might not have any taxes, because > it might have some better source of income. > bboy_mn: Just curious about what some of these better sources of income might be? > > > > ... you /might/ get out of paying taxes is to live totally in > > the wizard world, .... ... the Weasleys, ... seem to live very > > separate from the muggle world, yet, I asssume, they own the > > Burrow. To own it, they had to buy it. ... If they bought it > > then there is a public record of the sale. CatLady: > > Buy it or inherit it. Or win it in a poker game. > > Not if they bought (or inherited or won) it from another wizard. If > the property has always been owned by wizards, there need be no > Muggle record of it. bboy_mn: If the land exists in the real world then the government is going to want some accounting for it. I would assume, if Mr. Weasley bought the the land himself then he bought it from the great grandfather of the farmer who owns the surrounding land, and that would create a public record. Even if the land has been owned by the Weasley family for generations, or if it had been previously owned by another wizard, the government isn't going to overlook a single penny of tax revenue. I suspect the every square foot of land in Britain is accounted for, and somebody is paying taxes on it. I don't really see that as a problem though, as well as Gringotts Bank, I think there are a lot of other businesses who specialize in being an interface between the two worlds. So you could have an English Solicitor who is married to a witch, who is more than willing to take care of mundane muggle concerns like property tax. > > > There really is no way to earn income in the muggle world without > > paying taxes on it. ... as soon as you start buying things with > > the (cash) money, you create a paper trail that will eventually > > lead the tax man to you. CatLady: > > I am sure that the wizarding folk can delete that paper trail by > magic. I am sure they can make fake ID by magic, and they can use > Confundus Charms and Memory Charms. > True but their is a limit to how far you can take that. You can use memory charms to hide a magical catastrophe or some other revelation of magic, but those are things that are not suppose to exist in the muggle world. Spending money on the other hand, if it becomes too obvious, can't be ignored, there are just too many records of it. The big flags for the government would be major purchases, like buying a car with cash, or making a large deposit or withdrawal. You have to understand how closely we are monitored. If you paid for your groceries with a check card or a credit card, then the government can probably tell you what you had for dinner last night. You can go a long way with cash, but the government, in the US at least, actively works to suppress the uses of cash. I had a friend who was on his way to Minneapolis from a small town to buy a new stereo and he was carrying cash (several hundred dollars). He was pulled over by the police and they confiscated his money. He had a very difficult time getting it back, because he didn't have any banking receipts to prove that the money was actually his. Catlady: > JKR indicated in an interview that Gringotts returns the Muggle > money (that they get by exchanging) to the Muggle economy by > fencing. Else I would think that a government to government > arrangement had been worked out, not only for exchanging cash, but > for giving wizarding folk a paper trail when they do business with > Muggles. A money laundering arrangement! bboy_mn: As I said above, I think there are a lot of 'front' organizations that act as an interface between the wizard and muggle world. I have to assume that a certain amount of the goods, especially fresh produce, comes from the muggle world. I can see import/export companies treating trade with the muggle world, the same as trading with any foreign country. Back to the tax issue, while it is fun to discuss, I think it's just one of those realities we have to suspend in order for the story to work. Just a thought. bboy_mn From grace701 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 01:34:08 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 01:34:08 -0000 Subject: Who is the boy?/ Harry's Funeral In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54186 Nobody's Rib wrote: > How about this: The book opens with a third person description (no > mention of Harry) of a group of people (perhaps including Hermione, > Ron, Dumbledore, Sirius, etc.) standing huddled in a circle on the > front lawn of the Dursely house. They are standing tightly > together, so we can't see what they are standing around. They > look sad, Hermione is crying, and they exchange murmured phrases. > One by one they disperse... and... "The only person left outside > was a teenage boy who was lying flat on his back in a flowerbed > outside number four." Harry's eyes flash open as this > image wakes him from sleeping, and he tries to shake off the > dream/nightmare he's been having for the last month; there are > different variations of it (location, people in it), but it always > ends the same way, with his funeral. > > Considering GoF ended with Harry having his most extreme Voldemort > encounter and also watching a friend die, I don't think it would be > a stretch for him to have nightmares about it. This also sets up > Harry to be in a situation where he can replay the events (for plot > recap, and to show us how he's been emotionally dealing with the > events), as well as showing that Harry's been thinking about > death. (Didn't JKR say that Harry was going to be examining death > in a new way? Makes sense to me that part of this theme could be > established early on.) > > Just a thought. > That's very interesting. I always thought it was July 24th and he'd be laying on the flowerbed recalling everything that happened. But this whole dream theory you have is very good. It makes sense because how can Harry *not* be traumatized about what happened and not be worried about his own life. Even if he finally opened up to Ron and Hermione about what happened that night, it doesn't mean he is over the situation. He may get depressed while at the Dursley's, which I'm surprised he hasn't before, and because he is far away from his friends they are not able to help him cope with his depression nd guilt. BTW, has anyone noticed that poor Harry has never been told that he is loved by someone and that he himself hasn't told anyone he loves them. The day that happens I won't have enough tissue in my tissue box. (Hope it's Hermione! :p) Greicy, with my usual sneaky H/H comments! From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Mar 24 01:35:58 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 01:35:58 -0000 Subject: OoP Book covers In-Reply-To: <20030320172756.7342.h009.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54187 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Calliope" wrote: > "sam2sar" wrote: > I wonder if the place with all the doors could be St. Mungo's? Some people have speculated that Fudge may try to have Harry sent there, claiming Harry is insane. Maybe Harry is escaping from St. Mungo's?> This is what I'm leaning towards as well, but I was thinking something a bit different than Harry being sent there by Fudge (I wouldn't put that past Fudge, though). We know that Neville's parents are in St. Mungo's now and that when Neville goes to visit them, they don't recognize him. What if there's more to it than that? If many of us believe that Fudge would have Harry deemed insane, maybe he (or a previous Minister of Magic) sent the Longbottoms away as well. Maybe they know something that someone with a lot of power in the WW doesn't want to be known. We've seen characters in the Potterverse under all sorts of spells; perhaps the Longbottoms are not really insane but under the Imperius. We also know, from the few lines of OoP that have been released, Dumbledore will share something important with Harry; something that (I'm guessing) Harry needs and deserves to know. Perhaps the Longbottoms were more connected to Harry's parents than we thought, and Harry takes it upon himself (as we know he likes to do) to get them out of St. Mungo's. Or maybe the recent political events here in the US are just making me think more about conspiracies... --jenny from ravenclaw, who thinks Harry on the cover of OoP looks *nothing* like Daniel Radcliffe and who also has always like Mary GrandPre's work with HP *************************** From grace701 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 01:37:43 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 01:37:43 -0000 Subject: Frank Bryce is Black? (was Re: Who is the boy?/Frank Bryce/Harry's scar-dreams) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54188 FinWitch wrote: > And why's Harry's dream-vision centered around Frank Bryce? > They're not relatives; Yet there is *some* sort of connection, > though not exactly to Harry: Frank Bryce is black and suspected of > murder he didn't do - then there's Sirius Black who's also > an "innocent" murder- suspect... Where in canon does it say that Frank Bryce is black? I probably skipped that part. Thank you! Greicy From julia at thequiltbug.com Mon Mar 24 02:05:59 2003 From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 18:05:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Harry and "I Love You" (was: Who is the boy?/ Harry's Funeral) Message-ID: <20030323180559.19200.h014.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> No: HPFGUIDX 54189 Greicy wrote: > BTW, has anyone noticed that poor Harry has never been told that he > is loved by someone and that he himself hasn't told anyone he loves > them. The day that happens I won't have enough tissue in my tissue > box. (Hope it's Hermione! :p) That is one of the saddest things about the HP books, IMO - Harry has never heard those words that all kids need to hear. What's sadder is he never heard them when he was very, very young, in his formative years. I look at my daughter and I know I must say even silly stuff like "love you, pumpkin" several times a day. (She's two.) I mean, I'm sure James and Lily told him a million times, but he was a baby and too little to remember that. (I wish Harry could have a *good* dream about his parents, just for once - maybe being tickled by his dad, or rocked to sleep by his mum, or something...*sniff*) All shipping aside (I'm with you there, Greicy! :p ) I hope Hermione is the first one who says it. Even if she means "I love you in a friendly, brotherly way." I don't know why, I just think it would mean more coming from her. Plus,if she says it first, then Ron wouldn't feel stupid telling Harry either, (something along the lines of "yeah, me too, you great stupid prat," accompanied by a manly slap on the back or punch in the arm). --Calliope (who would love to give Harry a big motherly hug and ruffle his hair...) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/ http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ From grace701 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 02:34:53 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 02:34:53 -0000 Subject: Harry and "I Love You" (was: Who is the boy?/ Harry's Funeral) In-Reply-To: <20030323180559.19200.h014.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54190 I, Greicy, wrote: >>BTW, has anyone noticed that poor Harry has never been told that he >>is loved by someone and that he himself hasn't told anyone he loves >>them. The day that happens I won't have enough tissue in my tissue >>box. (Hope it's Hermione! :p) Calliope wrote: >That is one of the saddest things about the HP books, IMO - Harry >has never heard those words that all kids need to hear. What's >sadder is he never heard them when he was very, very young, in his >formative years. I look at my daughter and I know I must say even >silly stuff like "love you, pumpkin" several times a day. (She's >two.) I mean, I'm sure James and Lily told him a million times, but >he was a baby and too little to remember that. (I wish Harry could >have a *good* dream about his parents, just for once - maybe being >tickled by his dad, or rocked to sleep by his mum, or >something...*sniff*) >All shipping aside (I'm with you there, Greicy! :p ) I hope Hermione >is the first one who says it. Even if she means "I love you in a >friendly, brotherly way." I don't know why, I just think it would >mean more coming from her. Plus,if she says it first, then Ron >wouldn't feel stupid telling Harry either, (something along the >lines of "yeah, me too, you great stupid prat," accompanied by a >manly slap on the back or punch in the arm). > --Calliope > (who would love to give Harry a big motherly hug and ruffle his hair...) Yeah I would love for it to be Hermione, even if it is friendly. It seems she is the first person, a close friend, to give him a kiss on the cheek. (Fleur only kissed him because he "saved" her sister). Unless Mrs. Weasley has, but I can't remember. And, as you said, Ron would definitely follow suit, maybe to impress Hermione. ;) I wonder if we'll ever know how Harry feels about not being told that he is loved. In GoF, he is seeing romantic relationships between men and women. Maybe in OoP he'll start to see love between all kinds of relationships; start thinking about love in his own life and how he hasn't been told "I Love You". Poor kid. I'd hate to see (*IF* they become a couple) Ron and Hermione tell each other that they love each other as Harry just watches on. Depressing. Greicy, H/H supporter all the way! From julia at thequiltbug.com Mon Mar 24 02:50:01 2003 From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 18:50:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and "I Love You" (was: Who is the boy?/ Harry's Funeral) Message-ID: <20030323185001.20993.h014.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> No: HPFGUIDX 54191 > Greicy wrote: > > I wonder if we'll ever know how Harry feels about not being told that > he is loved. In GoF, he is seeing romantic relationships between men > and women. Maybe in OoP he'll start to see love between all kinds of > relationships; start thinking about love in his own life and how he > hasn't been told "I Love You". Poor kid. I'd hate to see (*IF* they > become a couple) Ron and Hermione tell each other that they love each > other as Harry just watches on. Depressing. me: I've seen a lot of fanfics do this - Ron and Hermione get all mushy in front of Harry - and I don't think either of them would really do that. For one, Ron doesn't seem the mushy type; he would probably be too *squicked out* to do something like that in front of Harry, and for another, Hermione seems too aware of other people's feelings, and wouldn't want to offend Harry in that way (and she also doesn't seem like the mushy type.) Fanfics - whether R/Hr or H/Hr - that have two of them being mushy in front of the other make me hit the back button very fast. I don't see any of the trio as being overly demonstrative in that way. I did pick up on how Harry notices people having *relationships* in GoF - I keep thinking back to him eavesdropping on Hagrid/Madame Maxime at the Yule Ball and how he said he wanted to "stuff his fingers in his ears and hum very loudly" and how he tried not to look at Fleur Delacour and Roger Davies in the rose bushes (although making out in a rosebush in the middle of a Scottish December is *not* an experience I am sad to have missed as a teen). That makes me think he wouldn't be very publicly demonstrative, nor would he want to be around anyone who was. --Calliope http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/ http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 02:52:05 2003 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 18:52:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [TBAY & FILK] Hey Jo Message-ID: <20030324025205.86763.qmail@web40310.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54192 **************************************************************** Coming in from out of the storm, Lilac closed the door behind her and shook out her umbrella. All the tables in George's bar were filled with new faces, mostly discussing the cover art for Book Five. Not seeing any of the Old Crowd around, Lilac sighed deeply and made her way towards the back room where she could hear music playing. CMC was at the microphone, singing his latest number. Several other filkers had gathered for Karaoke Night and waited patiently for their turn. Lilac stood there until she spotted Gail who sat slumped at one of the tables in the corner. Wearing a look of frustration on her face, the table in front of her was scattered with sheets of paper; all filks in different stages of completion. However, she wasn't currently writing anything. Lilac walked over and quietly sat down beside her. "Something the matter?" Lilac said. "I've lost my muse," Gail replied in a monotone voice. "I've got all these ideas but I feel so uninspired. How many days izzit now?" "Eighty-seven," Lilac said empathetically. Gail let out a groan. "I've got something here that may cheer you up, though." Lilac reached into her bag and pulled out a folded up piece of paper. "What?" Gail said as if nothing besides a copy of OotP would be able to cheer her up. "Remember that Beatles filk we've been working on?" "The one inspired by Dicentra's Open Letter on OTChatter last summer?" ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/11928 ) "Don't you mean *THE* Dicentra?" Lilac said, "I think she earned the title from her analysis of the Rift." "Girlfriend, you know, she'll always be Dicey the Sirius Apologist to me. What about the filk?" "It's finished," Lilac said, handing the paper to Gail with a flourish. "Dude! It's about time! Lemme see that!" Gail snatched the paper from Lilac and started to read the lyrics, silently mouthing the words as her eyes darted across the page. "Tried to keep it the way you envisioned it," Lilac said as the waitress came by with Lilac's 'usual'; a bottle of Butterbeer. "Something that lets JKR know that we really appreciate her writing. Something that we can be singing even while we wait for books six and seven." A grin slowly spread across Gail's face. "This is so cool. Let's sing it now!" "We have to wait 'till CMC is finished." Lilac motioned to the stage. "Man, is Caius a filking machine or what?" "Hey, Lilac..." "Huh?" Gail lowered her voice. "Are you still hip to do what we said we were gonna do?" "You mean send this filk to JKR herself? Heck yeah! But let's see what kind of response we get from it here first, okay?" "Deal," Gail said, looking down again at the lyrics that she held in her hand. "One thing, though," Lilac said as she took a swig from her bottle. "I want to sing the lead." Gail looked at Lilac, then said, "What? Again? Okay, whatever. But at the end of the song, while everybody is singing the 'Na-na-na-na' bit, *I* want to be the one going 'Hey Jo, Jo, Jo, Jo, Jo-dee, Jo-dee, Jo-dee, Jo-dee! Ow! Yow!' " "Yes, of course!" Lilac said smiling wide. "Come on, Gail. He's almost done. Lets get to the stage before he starts with another!" ******************************************************* Hey Jo (A FILK by Lilac and Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Hey Jude_ by the Beatles) Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle18.html Hey Jo, you we adore Each of your books keep getting better We all love your great imagination And narration of Harry Potter Hey Jo, you make us smile It's your style that we think is clever Your humor, plot twists and those red herrings Keep us guessing...oh, what an author! But anytime you need a break, hey Jo, please take Your true fans won't sit around and smoulder We'll gladly wait a year or two, or three, it's cool We know that your kids are getting older Hey Jo, we're speaking for This adoring, enormous fandom We trust you, that you'll stay true to your heart The story impart, just like you imagined So write it down and take your time, hey Jo, it's fine We're thankful that you gave us this series The tv's off, covered with dust, in books we trust We'd much gbohacek: We'd much rather read about our Harry Hey Jo, you we adore Each of your books keep getting better We all love your great imagination And narration of Harry Potter Potter, Potter, Potter, Potter, oh... (The HP4GU Chorus Sings) Na na na na na na na, na na na na, hey Jo! (repeat for about three years) ~Lilac Lennon and Gail McCartney~ ;-) ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "So sorry -- dozed off -- what have I missed?" ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From t.forch at mail.dk Sun Mar 23 23:19:19 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 00:19:19 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Can the Marauder's Map be deceived? In-Reply-To: <000001c2f188$8c255ba0$a1a7a7cb@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030324001320.00c82d30@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54193 At 10:07 24-03-03 +1200, Briony Coote wrote: >I have three questions about the Marauder's Map: > >1 - Why didn't Peter Pettigrew show on the Map during the years that the >Weasley twins used it, or when Harry started using it? That is not explained. Theories include the possibility that he actually did appear, but no one noticed it, or that the map shows only some people (how it would decide which people to show is a separate question in its own right ;-) - and other ideas that I can't remember right now. >2- In GoF, why did Barty Crouch Jnr show as "Barty Crouch" and not >"Barty Crouch Jnr"? Because his name was Bartemius Crouch - the 'junior' is just tagged on to distinguish him from his father. >3 - Why did Barty Crouch suddenly disappear off the map when he was >right there in Snape's office, disguised as Moody? He didn't disappear as far as I read the book. Harry never gets to look properly at the Map again after seeing 'Crouch' in Snape's office. Troels From liliana at worldonline.nl Sun Mar 23 23:33:16 2003 From: liliana at worldonline.nl (laylalast) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 23:33:16 -0000 Subject: Another curse scar? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54194 Hello, after "pottering" around this great group I would like to have your opinion on something that has been nagging me while reading GoF. I have checked whether has already been dicussed, but have not found it. If it has, lead me to it! Anyway, I have begun to wonder whether there is another person around with a curse scar like Harry's. At the start of GoF, Harry dreams about Voldemort and his scar starts to hurt. He wonders if he can do something against this but 'As far as he knew, he was the only living person to have survived a curse like Voldemort's' (page 24, GoF, UK paperback). When I read that I was immediately on the alert. Later, after Harry had another dream during professor Trelawney's lesson, Trelawney says to him when she wants to help: '...rolling on the floor, clutching your scar! Come now Potter, I have experience in these matters!' (page 501, same book) Although at first it seems that Trelawney merely means that she has experience in matter of having visions, it could also mean IMHO that she has dealt with such a scar before and therefore has experience. Finally, there is the scene between Dumbledore and Fudge, which already has been discussed: 'You'll forgive me, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm bell before...' (page 613, same book) Apparantly in the earlier versions Fudge says 'I've never heard...'. As I have a rather recent version of GoF, I assume that he has heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm bell, which for some (yet?) unknown reason was not an alarm at all (at least in Fudge's opinion). If there is somebody else with a curse scar I expect this person to be at St. Mungo's. For one, that would be reason enough for Fudge to dismiss an 'alarm bell' coming from that direction, as he will certainly not believe someone who is insane. If Dumbledore is aware of this person, my guess is that he will keep quiet about it because the person in question is rather vulnerable or even better, related to one of teachers at Hogwarts (my pet theory, which is not quite crystallized -did I spell that right? Dutch is my native language- yet). I don't have to ask you to treat my first question to you kindly, I have already noticed that you all do. That's why I like this group so very much! Layla From BEANNEBOY1 at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Mar 23 23:57:47 2003 From: BEANNEBOY1 at HOTMAIL.COM (beanneboy) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 23:57:47 -0000 Subject: Who is the boy?/Frank Bryce/Harry's scar-dreams In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54195 Finwitch wrote: >Frank Bryce is black and suspected of murder he didn't do - then there's Sirius Black who's also an "innocent" me: I never picked up that frank was a black man, its not really an issue but the only description I read in GOF was that he was an old man. Did it come from a JKR interview, or do I need reading lessons? let me know... lee From aashby.aashby at verizon.net Mon Mar 24 01:00:04 2003 From: aashby.aashby at verizon.net (theatresm2002) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 01:00:04 -0000 Subject: Snape saving Harry (was: An odd musing about Harry's atitude) In-Reply-To: <20030321233752.89043.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54196 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Clarity Sherwood wrote: > Finwitch: > Not that his counter-curses didn't do what he > intended, just that well, why didn't Snape steal Quirrell's attention - and clarity wrote: > Well, I really think that it was purely for plot > reasons, since is did lead Hermione to think that > Snape was jinxing him. > Ah, isn't the point to save that annoying Potter brat *without* blowing your own cover? Remember, Snape is not yet certain what Quirrel is up to; Quirrel wasn't one of the already-established Death Eaters that Snape might have known from before Voldemort's first defeat. Since Snape isn't certain which side Q. is on, it would not be a good thing for Quirrel either to see Snape aiding Potter or for Snape to obviously block Quirrel's spell. The plot contrivance is the fact that Hermione notices and jumps to conclusions because she, like everyone else, assumes that the nasty, "greasy git" can only be up to no good. theatresm From karenoc1 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 01:55:36 2003 From: karenoc1 at yahoo.com (karenoc1) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 01:55:36 -0000 Subject: Fawkes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54197 Hi! Barbara's comments about Fawkes are very interesting. Regarding his name, I think at least two things are possible: Fawkes is not as old as we think, and Dumbledore named him himself, or Fawkes was not originally owned by Dumbledore, and he is only around 300-390 years old. Phoenixes are not immortal; they just have an extra-long life- span, of say 500 years or so. And since other wands have phoenix feathers (and Fawkes only gave two feathers), I think it's safe to say that there have been more than one phoenix in this Wizarding World. Whether or not more than one phoenix exists at a given time may be in question, though. Anne U wrote: > 2) Fawkes (whose age is indeterminate but we know he's ancient > because he's been reborn many times) has given only 2 tail feathers, > and those ended up in the wands that chose Tom Riddle--who later > *chose* to become Lord Voldemort--and Harry Potter. I believe it's > established that the Mr. Ollivander who made and sold the wand to > Harry is the same Mr. Ollivander who made and sold the other wand to > Tom Riddle (and not, say, a son or a nephew). So I'd also like to > know whether Ollivander made these two wands at approximately the > same time, knowing that Tom Riddle and Harry Potter *themselves* > would eventually be chosen by the wands? Or did he make them at the > same time knowing that the two wands would eventually choose two (as > yet unknown to him) extremely powerful wizards? Or did he make them > at different times using tail feathers given at different times?? This is also really interesting: playing with the notion of free decisions versus fate in Harry's world. I don't know for certain, but my gut tells me that Mr. Ollivander made the two wands (Fawkes feather with yew and Fawkes feather with holly) at the same time; he then put them away in their respective boxes waiting for them to "choose" their owners. And I don't think that Mr. Ollivander knew that either Tom Riddle or Harry Potter would be chosen by those two wands. But there's that fate element. We may think that Harry may have been destined to be chosen by a wand that shares a core with Voldemort's because they are intrinsically linked, but what if the reverse is true? What if Tom Riddle was chosen by his wand BECAUSE Harry Potter was destined to have the other wand, especially if the cores really do relate to Harry's possible Godric Gryffindor connection? This makes my poor head hurt.... Anyway, thank you Barbara, Mr. Ed, and Anne for this topic! And please excuse me if I've mentioned something already covered in the archives. Karen From grace701 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 03:13:49 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 03:13:49 -0000 Subject: some thoughts on Year 5 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54198 Being that it is year 5, prefects are chosen and I will be expecting for Hermione to send Harry an owl in which she states that she is a Gryffindor Prefect. Plus, I'd like to even see Draco as a Slytherin Prefect. I wouldn't be surprised at all because we haven't hear anything about his being stupid like Goyle or Crabbe, whoever had the lowest grades in SS/PS. Now, I want to know if the Death Eaters (Crabbe, Goyle, Nott, Malfoy, etc.) are going to let their children attend Hogwarts this year being that Voldemort is back. I know Dumbledore isn't going to have a problem because he is, after all, open-minded. Could the DE's have their own children be spies? Uh....that'll be so interesting. Not only an epic war in the WW, but a war in Hogwarts itself! How are HRH going to interact with MCG knowing what they know about them? Will HRH start their own "crowd"? How about recruiting Neville, Susan Bones and Fawcett? I would like to see some more Defense Classes besides Defense Against the Arts. I must admit, I have been influenced by the FF Draco Sinister. I'd like for Harry, Ron and Hermione (and the rest of them) to learn how to fence and duel. Obviously, Voldemort expected Harry to know how to duel in GoF, so why not have Flitwick teach an extra class. Maybe they could even learn how to use bows and arrows a al Legolas (look below)! My whole point is: They need to learn how to defend themselves! Voldemort HAS returned! Not everyone can be like HRH. ;) >>side note: It seems that wizards have cross-bred. Why haven't I heard any mentions of cross-breeding with Elves, not house-elves, actual elves. Maybe JK is leaving that for later?<< Now back to a question I had that I'd like to bring up, again. Will parents let their children go back to Hogwarts after learning that Dumbledore told them that Voldemort is back? There are parents who value Dumbledore and his opinions like Mrs. Weasley, but what of parents who are in denial like Fudge (although I think he's a traitor)? What about the Muggle parents who don't understand what is going on, like Hermione's and Dean's? What will Hermione and Dean tell them when they recieve an owl from Hogwarts about an evil wizard that's come back to try to take over the WW? I hope JK answers some of these questions. I have a feeling Hogwarts may have a smaller amount of students this year than last year, making the castle solitary, which I don't think is a good idea because there is safty in numbers. Greicy, who is thinking V will make his own school for DE's children or will have the DE children try to take over Hogwarts themselves From siskiou at earthlink.net Mon Mar 24 03:06:52 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 19:06:52 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and "I Love You" (was: Who is the boy?/ Harry's Funeral) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26201839717.20030323190652@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 54199 Hi, Sunday, March 23, 2003, 6:34:53 PM, grace701 wrote: > I wonder if we'll ever know how Harry feels about not being told that > he is loved. I sure hope that Harry knows there are people who love him, even if they don't come out and say the actual words. Just looking at what Ron and Hermione have done for him, I'd feel bad for them if Harry only believed in their love/friendship if they said "I love you". Sometimes what people do for you says more than a thousand words. When Ron stood up in front of Sirius and told him Sirius would have to kill all three of them, I can't see how anyone could doubt that he loves Harry and would die for/with him, and thinks Hermione would, too. And Mrs. Weasley says it with sweaters, hugs, food, and her presence at the third task... -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From lorischmidt1 at juno.com Mon Mar 24 03:07:12 2003 From: lorischmidt1 at juno.com (ladyofmisrule2000) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 03:07:12 -0000 Subject: Harry and "I Love You" In-Reply-To: <20030323180559.19200.h014.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54200 > Greicy wrote: >>By the way, has anyone noticed that poor Harry has never been told >>that he is loved by someone and that he himself hasn't told anyone >>he loves them. The day that happens I won't have enough tissue in >>my tissue box. (Hope it's Hermione! :p)<< Lori adds: Excellent, excellent point! Just as an addendum, I'd like to point out that, although it's not the same thing, Hermione does sign her notes to Harry "Love from Hermione." (I found that in Prisoner of Azkaban, but it could be elsewhere in canon.) I don't know if Brits put any more emphasis on the way they close their letters than we do, so could someone from across the pond fill this clueless Yank in on the way one would typically end a message sent to a friend? Thanks! Lori Moderators' note: This is a great question, but please remember to relate your replies to Harry Potter canon. Non-canon related discussion of British letter-writing conventions should be directed to OTChatter. From grace701 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 03:28:44 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 03:28:44 -0000 Subject: Harry and "I Love You" (was: Who is the boy?/ Harry's Funeral) In-Reply-To: <20030323185001.20993.h014.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54201 >>Greicy wrote: >> >>I wonder if we'll ever know how Harry feels about not being told >>that he is loved. In GoF, he is seeing romantic relationships >>between men and women. Maybe in OoP he'll start to see love >>between all kinds of relationships; start thinking about love in >>his own life and how he hasn't been told "I Love You". Poor kid. >>I'd hate to see (*IF* they become a couple) Ron and Hermione tell >>each other that they love each other as Harry just watches on. >>Depressing. >Calliope: >I've seen a lot of fanfics do this - Ron and Hermione get all mushy >in front of Harry - and I don't think either of them would really do >that. For one, Ron doesn't seem the mushy type; he would probably >be too *squicked out* to do something like that in front of Harry, >and for another, Hermione seems too aware of other people's >feelings, and wouldn't want to offend Harry in that way (and she >also doesn't seem like the mushy type.) Fanfics - whether R/Hr or >H/Hr - that have two of them being mushy in front of the other make >me hit the back button very fast. I don't see any of the trio as >being overly demonstrative in that way. > I did pick up on how Harry notices people having *relationships* in >GoF - I keep thinking back to him eavesdropping on Hagrid/Madame >Maxime at the Yule Ball and how he said he wanted to "stuff his >fingers in his ears and hum very loudly" and how he tried not to >look at Fleur Delacour and Roger Davies in the rose bushes (although >making out in a rosebush in the middle of a Scottish December is >*not* an experience I am sad to have missed as a teen). That makes >me think he wouldn't be very publicly demonstrative, nor would he >want to be around anyone who was. Funny, I was going to write that he would accidentally over hear Hermione and Ron say that to each other. I wouldn't think that they'd be affectionate towards each other in public, especially Ron. They are still young and innocent so I'm not surpised that Harry did that at all. I do think that Hermione will demonstate what she is feeling, friendly-wise. She has grown and matured tremendously since SS/PS. Although she is only affectionate when full of emotion, she did kiss Harry goodbye in GoF which is something she's never done before and I'm sure (though I hate to admit it) she did the same with Ron (we'll never know). That proves to me that she can show her feelings in public. Now the whole "mushy" subject: I agree, they wouldn't be mushy in front of each other, but I think they are capable of being mushy. ;) I'd figured Ron would be mushy only because his parents may have been with each other, teaching him how to be mushy. Harry has probably been seen mushiness, but it comes from the people he can't stand most, the Dursleys. Maybe he'll learn that mushiness isn't all that bad when it is with someone he loves. Hermione, well....I don't know because we haven't met her parents! (I'm not happy about that). But I'd like to think she can be mushy as well. :D Greicy From rowen_lm at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 03:31:54 2003 From: rowen_lm at yahoo.com (Liz Muir) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 03:31:54 -0000 Subject: Can the Marauder's Map be deceived? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54202 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Devika" wrote: Briony Coote wrote: >>1 - Why didn't Peter Pettigrew show on the Map during the years that the Weasley twins used it, or when Harry started using it? << Devika wrote: >>My theory is that the Map only shows people who are relevant to the "mischief maker" using it. IIRC, when Harry uses the Map, it usually shows Filch, Peeves, Dumbledore, and others who might make it difficult for Harry to sneak around the castle. The map never seems to show all of the students in the school (at least, we aren't told that it does). This is probably because Harry really doesn't need to know that there are students in Gryffindor Tower or in other common rooms, for example. The Map only shows the people who are near to Harry or who might affect where he is trying to go. When Fred and George used the Map, they probably did not need to know about Ron and where he was or about people in Gryffindor Tower. Since Scabbers was probably in Gryffindor Tower when he wasn't with Ron, there would be no reason for him to show up on the Map. << My personal conviction is that the Map has a sort of built in "confidentiality clause." If you don't know who someone really is, then they would appear on the map as whoever you thought them to be. Thus Scabbers would appear as Scabbers. (If you are familiar with Diane Duane's _Young Wizards_ series, this concept is similar to the one presented in _A Wizard Abroad_. The one about why the Manual didn't list Nita's aunt in the directory.) However, this doesn't apply to strangers. Since you haven't mistaken their identity, they will show up as their true selves. Rowen Avalon, who remains amazed that there is still so much discussion on this list, since we haven't had major additions to cannon for 2-3 years! From urbana at charter.net Mon Mar 24 03:34:16 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 03:34:16 -0000 Subject: [TBAY & FILK] Hey Jo In-Reply-To: <20030324025205.86763.qmail@web40310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54203 > Hey Jo > > (A FILK by Lilac and Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Hey Jude_ by the > Beatles) > > Hey Jo, you we adore > Each of your books keep getting better > We all love your great imagination > And narration of Harry Potter > > (The HP4GU Chorus Sings) > Na na na na na na na, na na na na, hey Jo! > > (repeat for about three years) > > ~Lilac Lennon and Gail McCartney~ ;-) > Anne U: Hey Jo, we won't be afraid, While we wait for books six and seven The minute you tell us how they begin You'll see us grin from here to heaven Heaven, heaven, heaven, heaven, heaven, OHHHHH!! (waving both arms from side to side over head) NA NA NA NA NA NA NA, NA NA NA NA, Hey Jo! Anne U (bowing to the Filking Queens, Gail B and Lilac!) From grace701 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 03:37:01 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 03:37:01 -0000 Subject: Harry and "I Love You" (was: Who is the boy?/ Harry's Funeral) In-Reply-To: <26201839717.20030323190652@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54204 Susanne: > I sure hope that Harry knows there are people who love him, > even if they don't come out and say the actual words. > > Just looking at what Ron and Hermione have done for him, I'd > feel bad for them if Harry only believed in their > love/friendship if they said "I love you". > > Sometimes what people do for you says more than a thousand > words. > > When Ron stood up in front of Sirius and told him Sirius > would have to kill all three of them, I can't see how anyone > could doubt that he loves Harry and would die for/with him, > and thinks Hermione would, too. > > And Mrs. Weasley says it with sweaters, hugs, food, and her > presence at the third task... You are right, action speaks louder than words and Hermione's, Ron's and Mrs. Weasley's actions are no exceptions. Yet, those 3 small words, as we all know are *very* important and mean a lot. Not to say that actions/sacrifices aren't important, but sometimes you need to hear those words. It just seems sad that Harry has never heard them. Unless as someone posted, Harry has a nice dream (finally) of his parents and he recalls them saying I Love You. I'm looking for such a moment to happen whether it'd be in a dream with his parents or in "canon life" with Hermione. Greicy From rowen_lm at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 03:43:55 2003 From: rowen_lm at yahoo.com (Liz Muir) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 03:43:55 -0000 Subject: book covers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54205 Kary wrote: >>The light is coming in form the top. That happen when Harry fell in the pensieve if I remember, correctly. Help me with a quote please. Since the pensieves substance was mercury-like it would also reflect light like a mirror... he doesn't necessarily haveto be in a room with many doors, just have to me in someone or Dombleore's memory room with many doors.That is if you accept my idea.<< Debbie wrote: >>I do like the thought Harry's in Dumbledore's pensieve - or perhaps someone elses???? Someone had mentioned he's at Malfoy Manor - perhaps Lucius' pensieve?<< OOooh, that's a loverly idea. Here's my new theory about the pensieve: if he is in a pensieve, he finds out something that looks bad for Dumbledore or one of the other teachers. Harry then rushes into Dumbledore's office and demands and explaination. Thus the "I'm going to tell you everything" line. Rowen, who apologize because she now thinks there was a serious canon error in her last post. From catlady at wicca.net Mon Mar 24 05:24:50 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 05:24:50 -0000 Subject: [TBAY & FILK] Hey Jo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54206 This splendid filk by Lilac and Gail, plus Anne's delightful addition, should be sent to JKR via Ali Wildgoose's Letterbox Project at http://www.theletterbox.org/ --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Anne" wrote: > > Hey Jo > > > > (A FILK by Lilac and Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Hey Jude_ by the > > Beatles) > > > > Hey Jo, you we adore > > Each of your books keep getting better > > We all love your great imagination > > And narration of Harry Potter > > > > > > (The HP4GU Chorus Sings) > > Na na na na na na na, na na na na, hey Jo! > > > > (repeat for about three years) > > > > ~Lilac Lennon and Gail McCartney~ ;-) > > > > Anne U: > Hey Jo, we won't be afraid, > While we wait for books six and seven > The minute you tell us how they begin > You'll see us grin from here to heaven > Heaven, heaven, heaven, heaven, heaven, OHHHHH!! > > (waving both arms from side to side over head) > NA NA NA NA NA NA NA, NA NA NA NA, Hey Jo! > > > Anne U > (bowing to the Filking Queens, Gail B and Lilac!) From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 05:30:03 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 05:30:03 -0000 Subject: The Longbottoms (was: Re: OoP Book covers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54207 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenny_ravenclaw" wrote: > We know that Neville's parents are in St. Mungo's now and that when > Neville goes to visit them, they don't recognize him. What if there's > more to it than that? If many of us believe that Fudge would have > Harry deemed insane, maybe he (or a previous Minister of Magic) sent > the Longbottoms away as well. Maybe they know something that someone > with a lot of power in the WW doesn't want to be known. We've seen > characters in the Potterverse under all sorts of spells; perhaps the > Longbottoms are not really insane but under the Imperius. > Annemehr: Oh, good -- let's play with this! Earlier I had proposed a theory that involves Lucius Malfoy. A recap: The Longbottoms were sent to St. Mungo's after being tortured because they truly needed it. However, although they could have eventually recovered, Lucius Malfoy is bribing someone there to keep them alive but incapacitated (for reasons unknown). The large contribution to St. Mungo's that Fudge mentions at the Q World Cup is such a bribe (after all, we know that Lucius doesn't actually care about poor ill wizards, now, don't we?). There is a quote in the Rita Skeeter article (in which she suggests Harry is unbalanced) that could come from a wizard in league with Malfoy and up to no good. Now let's mix Jenny's theory and mine together. What if Fudge *is* the one holding the Longbottoms in St. Mungo's in an artificially maintained stupor? Maybe he's actually blackmailing Lucius Malfoy because Malfoy actually had something to do with their torture and wasn't caught, or maybe Fudge has an agent at St. Mungo's who overheard the Longbottoms, in their distress, raving about something incriminating they knew about Malfoy. Fudge checked it out, realized it was true, and has been accepting bribes through his St. Mungo's agent ever since, and thus needs to keep the L's alive but helpless. Fudge is still somewhat afraid of the formidable Lucius Malfoy, however, and tries to mollify him somewhat by getting him prime tickets to sporting events and otherwise letting Malfoy exert his influence in the MoM. > We also know, from the few lines of OoP that have been released, > Dumbledore will share something important with Harry; something that > (I'm guessing) Harry needs and deserves to know. Perhaps the > Longbottoms were more connected to Harry's parents than we thought, > and Harry takes it upon himself (as we know he likes to do) to get > them out of St. Mungo's. > Annemehr: Yeah. The Longbottoms could be very important in the fight against Voldemort, and here's idiot Fudge keeping them locked away for the sake of some money and a battle of wills with Lucius Malfoy! And Harry goes to get them out -- I hope he does it *with* Neville, though. I've been hoping for more of Neville through three books now... > Or maybe the recent political events here in the US are just making me > think more about conspiracies... Huh? > > --jenny from ravenclaw, who thinks Harry on the cover of OoP looks > *nothing* like Daniel Radcliffe and who also has always like Mary > GrandPre's work with HP *************************** Agreeing with you there! Annemehr who has already emailed Scholastic to inquire about the possibility of having T-shirts (black) with the OoP cover on them. Wonder if I'll get any response? From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 07:16:47 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 07:16:47 -0000 Subject: Harry and "I Love You" (was: Who is the boy?/ Harry's Funeral) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54208 Greicy wrote: > >>BTW, has anyone noticed that poor Harry has never been told that he > >>is loved by someone and that he himself hasn't told anyone he loves > >>them. The day that happens I won't have enough tissue in my tissue > >>box. (Hope it's Hermione! :p) > > Calliope wrote: > >All shipping aside (I'm with you there, Greicy! :p ) I hope Hermione > >is the first one who says it. Even if she means "I love you in a > >friendly, brotherly way." I don't know why, I just think it would > >mean more coming from her. Greicy responded: > Yeah I would love for it to be Hermione, even if it is friendly. > It seems she is the first person, a close friend, to give him a > kiss on the cheek. Maybe in OoP he'll start to see love > between all kinds of relationships; start thinking about love in > his own life and how he hasn't been told "I Love You". My turn: Hermione saying it first makes sense, but that could also cause some problems. Like Ron getting jealous. Or Harry not being sure how to interpret the words (he is a teenager, after all). I'd hate for this moment to get entangled with petty emotionalities. So here's another candidate. I hope that the first time he hears it is from a parental-figure: Hagrid. While Hermione is the first to kiss him (on the cheek), Hagrid is the first person to reach out to him in general (that he remembers.) Hagrid takes him away from the Dursleys, buys him his first (real) birthday present, tells him about his magic status, tells him about his parents... Hagrid swooped in and rescued baby Harry from the rubble, eleven years later he swooped in again, and he has remained a close friend and confidant. I think "I love you, Harry" coming from Hagrid would be especially weighty. (And it's not like Hagrid is especially good at keeping his emotions hidden. He might say it in passing, but he could also burst into tears and wrap Harry up in a big bear hug, which enables Harry - ie The Boy Who Hardly Cries - to hear the words and let their full impact sink in without being seen by the world while he does so.) (Oh no! I just pictured Hagrid saying it... right before he tumbles to his grisly death, and I'm reaching out for one of Greicy's tissues. No fair for Harry to finally hear these words but then have them tangled up with grief and guilt.) - Nobody's Rib From mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com Mon Mar 24 09:20:41 2003 From: mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com (Edward Post) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 04:20:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Can the Marauder's Map be deceived? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54209 Rowen Avalon wrote: >My personal conviction is that the Map has a sort of built in >"confidentiality clause." If you don't know who someone really is, then >they would appear on the map as whoever you thought them to be. Thus >Scabbers would appear as Scabbers... >However, this doesn't apply to strangers. Since you haven't mistaken their >identity, they will show up as their true selves. But, but, but, that's not consistent with the evening where Harry got caught in the trick step (the night Harry got naked with Moaning Myrtle)! He looked at the map and it showed Bartemius Croach lurking around Snape's office. If the described "confidentiality" feature had been installed, the map would have indicated the lurker was Moody. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 09:14:23 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 09:14:23 -0000 Subject: The Longbottoms (was: Re: OoP Book covers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54210 > > Annemehr: > Yeah. The Longbottoms could be very important in the fight against > Voldemort, and here's idiot Fudge keeping them locked away for the > sake of some money and a battle of wills with Lucius Malfoy! And > Harry goes to get them out -- I hope he does it *with* Neville, > though. I've been hoping for more of Neville through three books > now... Well - Harry could be taken to St Mungos, which deals with more than just mental problems (at least with Memory-lost case like Lockhart). I understand St Mungos being a hospital dealing with all kinds of diseases. There he might meet real Moody and Longbottoms and Neville. About Fudge's account of "I've heard of curse scars acting as alarm bells before" - well, Moody's the most scarred person and generally noted for paranoia (but it isn't, because they really *were* after him?) so I reckon Moody said something like that to him & others in the Ministry. I presume Harry could talk with Moody about curse-scars in general? That might help him deal with the pain on his forehead... Or maybe Alastor Moody speaks of his scars like Arabella Figg speaks of her cats? -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 09:42:10 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 09:42:10 -0000 Subject: The map? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54211 > > Kristen: > I have been re-reading GoF lately and it made me stop and think. I > don't believe anyone mentioned this after Barty's confession in the > book, so who went and picked up the Marauders Map from Fake!Moody's > office? Then again, it could be _Dobby_ who got it and placed into Harry's trunk unnoticed, without anyone asking/telling him to do so. Winky might have told him about it, as it's not a *secret* to be kept since her master Barty told all of it already. Or Dobby might have heard it when Dumbledore did, and just wasn't *noticed* being there. House- elves do seem to pack things for the students- why not Dobby putting the map there?? Anyway, Sirius & Lupin might make more maps, now updated with Secret Chamber... and what of those *blocked* corridors? Maybe they just seem blocked, but can be opened with a shrinking charm/password?? It may do more than show good map/people. It *has* seen trough polyjuice AND animagi. Hmm... Does Dumbledore have something to hide the map may reveal? (Animagus trying to hide? Timeturner!Weasley?) Anyway, Dumbledore must have been shocked to find there's something related to Hogwarts he doesn't know but someone else does! -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 08:25:37 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 08:25:37 -0000 Subject: Can the Marauder's Map be deceived? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54212 --- Rowen Avalon: > My personal conviction is that the Map has a sort of built > in "confidentiality clause." If you don't know who someone really is, > then they would appear on the map as whoever you thought them to be. > Thus Scabbers would appear as Scabbers. (If you are familiar with > Diane Duane's _Young Wizards_ series, this concept is similar to the > one presented in _A Wizard Abroad_. The one about why the Manual > didn't list Nita's aunt in the directory.) > > However, this doesn't apply to strangers. Since you haven't mistaken > their identity, they will show up as their true selves. This doesn't apply to Polyjuiced Bartholomeus Crouch. Map places his true name (though without Jr after it to separate father and son sharing the name) when Harry looks at it. Also, Lupin/Sirius said at some point that 'the map never lies' IIRC, so it does show true identity of anyone - polyjuiced, under invisibility cloak or animagus (at least Moony saw Wormtail in it). However, it might have special protection to it's makers, so that *their* animagus form doesn't show to any but another one in the group. Or, well... Harry just never paid attention to a dot saying Peter Pettigrew, and it's not like Harry's used the map often when 'Scrabbers' was there. Weasley twins... well, we don't know when they got the map or even how they learned to operate it. They might have been taught by one maker who pretended to be a pet to their brother and since he had been no threat so far, they chose to trust him and never told anyone (or if they did, they weren't believed). -- Finwitch From bobafett at harbornet.com Mon Mar 24 05:26:20 2003 From: bobafett at harbornet.com (BoBaFeTT) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 21:26:20 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: book covers References: Message-ID: <002a01c2f1c5$e7d459a0$e28402c7@home> No: HPFGUIDX 54213 Kary wrote: >>The light is coming in form the top. That happen when Harry fell in the pensieve if I remember, correctly. Help me with a quote please. Since the pensieves substance was mercury-like it would also reflect light like a mirror... he doesn't necessarily haveto be in a room with many doors, just have to me in someone or Dombleore's memory room with many doors.That is if you accept my idea.<< Debbie wrote: >>I do like the thought Harry's in Dumbledore's pensieve - or perhaps someone elses???? Someone had mentioned he's at Malfoy Manor - perhaps Lucius' pensieve?<< ------------------------------------------ Anyone mentioned he might be in Godric's Hollow? -BobaFeTT [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From petra.delisser at postikaista.net Mon Mar 24 09:58:46 2003 From: petra.delisser at postikaista.net (brinforest) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 09:58:46 -0000 Subject: Moving Candles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54214 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Linda" wrote: > But one theory no one has brought up, and it > seems plausable to me, is the the candles themselves could be moving > in a circular room around Harry. They look like they are floating > out of the door on the left, circling around Harry, and floating back > toward the door in the center. This would explain the difference in > the direction of the flames, and also the blurred images of the > candles. Harry has his wand raised in an upward position as if has > just invoked a charm, or may be controlling the candles with his > wand. > Hi Linda, and good point about the candles. I've tried hard to not take part in the cover discussion because it's so massive already (and I also have to say that I'm not entirely convinced the cover image is an illustration of an actual scene - as someone said earlier, it could be made to depict a general mood or symbolic idea of what happens in the book), but since you came so close to what I thought was happening, well... I also think that the candles themselves are moving. Have you considered the quality of the candles, then? Because I suspect that they're not real, solid candles. Ghostly candles? Is there such a thing? The death-day party candles in CoS were black, but they gave out a blue light like these here seem to. And these ones don't look very solid, do they? You can't really see the bottom ends of the ones in front, but the ones in the back just seem to fade away and not have a bottom end. The candles covered, I'm really interested in what's behind the doors - are they all (there seems to be a top corner of another doorway on the left, so I assume there's more than three) opening at the same time to reveal - what?? And has Harry possibly turned to face whatever's coming from a door behind him? This could be symbolic as well as a scene. Preparing for the horror that's coming closer. Brin From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 10:19:05 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:19:05 -0000 Subject: book covers In-Reply-To: <00f301c2f0e6$085dbb20$410b9d3e@bockerma> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54215 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, m.bockermann at t... wrote: Ethanol: > > We kind of always assumed that this Order of the Phoenix would be good or helpful for Harry. But if you think about the earlier titles they always refered to something that came as a challenge to him: the Philosopher's stone, the Chamber of Secrets and the Goblets of Fire all caused him some kind of trouble. Yes, the Prisoner of Azkaban kind off sticks out there. But for the longest time Harry thought in that book that Sirius was the villain, so it mentions a challenge as well. > > Wouldn't it be strange if all of a sudden, the title mentions something that's beneficial to Harry? Me: Hmm.. Harry passed a series of tasks to find the Philosopher's stone (Both Hermione and Ron with him, but in the end he's alone). He went to the Chamber of Secrets after some difficulty, with that as his goal (Ron's with him, Hermione's petrified, but only Harry goes to finish); Prisoner of Azkaban was his godfather he had to meet and save (with help of Ron&Hermione). Then he passes series of tasks again (prepared by friends, but doing the tasks alone this time) to reach Goblet of Fire. Order of the Phoenix may well be a group he's to join and this magical room has something to do with the ritual of membership. > Ethanol again: > > I don't think that Harry is alone in the room. I doubt that he is looking into a mirror: why crane your neck for that an lift your hand? And his expression: somehow grim and urged, but still eerily calm and determined. For me it seems to say: "Shall we?" I would speculate he addresses one or both of his usual conspirators in havoc - Ron or Hermione. > > Well, what do you think? As he's looking UP I think it's someone who can fly. A bird. It could be Hedwig, but I think it's *Fawkes* the phoenix. Order of the Phoenix... well, Fawkes just *has* to be involved in this. Maybe this Order of the Phoenix is a set of rules on 'how to care and tame a phoenix' or something. And er.. Dumbledore broke those rules, and because of that, Fawkes chose to leave him for a new owner, Harry Potter... -- Finwitch From t.forch at mail.dk Mon Mar 24 10:31:50 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 11:31:50 +0100 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy?/ Harry's Funeral In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030324112613.00c758d0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54216 At 01:34 24-03-03 +0000, Greicy wrote: >Greicy, with my usual sneaky H/H comments! We have in Danish an adage claiming that what the heart is full of, the mouth spills over with (I suppose that a similar adage exists in English, but I know it not :-) When Hermione is with her one sure suitor, Mr Krum, he still has some complaints: "'Hermy-own-ninny talks about you very often' said Krum, looking suspiciously at Harry" Whatever the eventual outcome, I will maintain that so far the weight of the evidence is for a H/H ship Troels Forchhammer From sevothtarte at gmx.net Mon Mar 24 10:38:53 2003 From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 11:38:53 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Can the Marauder's Map be deceived? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54217 Finwitch: >However, it might have special >protection to it's makers, so that *their* animagus form doesn't show >to any but another one in the group. Now this is good! It not only explains the whole "Why did no one notice Pettigrew on the map?" issue, it also makes perfect sense if viewed as a safety measure. MWPP always stood the chance of losing the map, having it confiscated, etc. If it could have blown their animagus cover, it would have been too risky. But if you already know about someone being an animagus, you can see them - so if MWPP ever decided to give the map to a friend they really trusted, he could see them (just as they would be able to discover an enemy known animagus, if that property of the map included all animagi). I really like that one, Finwitch. ^_^ -Torsten From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Mon Mar 24 12:45:45 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 12:45:45 -0000 Subject: Some questions about Sirius Black (some FF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54218 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nobodysrib" wrote: > And a question of my own: > > If Sirius is re-imprisoned, why would he need Harry's help to break > free? (He's already proven he is able to escape on his own.) > He was able to escape because nobody there knew he was an Animagus. If the authorities find out about Padfoot, they can take extra precautions to keep him imprisoned. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From patricia at obscure.org Mon Mar 24 15:06:33 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:06:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Some questions about Sirius Black (some FF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54219 On Mon, 24 Mar 2003, marinafrants wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nobodysrib" > wrote: > > And a question of my own: > > > > If Sirius is re-imprisoned, why would he need Harry's help to > break > > free? (He's already proven he is able to escape on his own.) > > > > He was able to escape because nobody there knew he was an Animagus. > If the authorities find out about Padfoot, they can take extra > precautions to keep him imprisoned. And even if they don't know that he can transform, they are sure to keep an extra watchful eye on him since he managed to escape once before. I imagine they would station a guard who can actually see (unlike the Dementors) outside his cell to keep track of what he's doing. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 15:30:36 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 15:30:36 -0000 Subject: Another curse scar? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54220 Layla wrote: > I have begun to wonder whether there is another person > around with a curse scar like Harry's. If there is somebody > else with a curse scar I expect this person to be at St. Mungo's. Now me: Interesting theory! Could it be the Longbottoms, perhaps, since they are at St. Mungo's? Perhaps a scar develops if one is subjected to the Cruciatus curse for long enough? JKR was asked about Harry's scar in a Houston Chronicle article (see: http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/text.htm): Q: "What is the meaning behind Harry's lightning bolt scar?" JKR: "There are some things I can tell you about it and some things I can't. I wanted him to be physically marked by what he has been through. It was an outward expression of what he has been through inside. I gave him a scar and in a prominent place so other people would recognize him. It is almost like being the chosen one, or the cursed one, in a sense. Someone tried to kill him; that's how he got it. I chose the lightning bolt because it was the most plausible shape for a distinctive scar. As you know, the scar has certain powers, and it gives Harry warnings. I can't say more than that, but there is more to say." Based on this interview excerpt, I don't expect to see anyone else with a curse scar like Harry's, because JKR is telling us that she wanted Harry's scar to be "distinctive" and to show that he's the "chosen" or "cursed" one. This interview excerpt does suggest that there's more to Harry's scar than we've found out about so far, though! Layla again: > Finally, there is the scene between Dumbledore and Fudge, which > already has been discussed: 'You'll forgive me, Dumbledore, but > I've heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm bell before...' (page > 613, same book) Apparently in the earlier versions Fudge says 'I've > never heard...'. Me again: I have both the US and the UK versions of GoF, and in the US version, Fudge says "I've never heard" while in the UK version he says "I've heard." From the context, the "I've never heard" version makes more sense to me, but when we debated this on the list awhile ago, others thought "I've heard" made more sense to them. ~Phyllis From grace701 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 16:25:08 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 16:25:08 -0000 Subject: Harry and "I Love You" (was: Who is the boy?/ Harry's Funeral) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54221 Nobody's rib wrote: > My turn: >Hermione saying it first makes sense, but that could also cause >some problems. Like Ron getting jealous. Or Harry not being sure >how to interpret the words (he is a teenager, after all). I'd hate >for this moment to get entangled with petty emotionalities. >So here's another candidate. I hope that the first time he hears >it is from a parental-figure: Hagrid. While Hermione is the first >to kiss him (on the cheek), Hagrid is the first person to reach out >to him in general (that he remembers.) Hagrid takes him away from >the Dursleys, buys him his first (real) birthday present, tells him >about his magic status, tells him about his parents... Hagrid >swooped in and rescued baby Harry from the rubble, eleven years >later he swooped in again, and he has remained a close friend and >confidant. I think "I love you, Harry" coming from Hagrid would be >especially weighty. (And it's not like Hagrid is especially good >at keeping his emotions hidden. He might say it in passing, but he >could also burst into tears and wrap Harry up in a big bear hug, >which enables Harry - ie The Boy Who Hardly Cries - to hear the >words and let their full impact sink in without being seen by the >world while he does so.) >(Oh no! I just pictured Hagrid saying it... right before he tumbles >to his grisly death, and I'm reaching out for one of Greicy's >tissues. No fair for Harry to finally hear these words but then >have them tangled up with grief and guilt.) YES! Hagrid, Harry's "hero" in a way, would be more than perfect to be the first person to tell him I love you, for the reasons you stated. And it would be perfect in OoP being that Hagrid is a candidate for death, making it dramatic. Making it not only the first person to rescue Harry from the rubbles of Godric Hollow and Dursleys and his first friend, but the first to say I LOVE YOU and the first to die, as well. Oh no! This I love you stuff makes Hagrid dying in OoP even more sense! (joins Nobody's Rib in taking a tissue!) And yes Hermione telling Harry she loves him would make Ron jealous making him think that again, Harry gets "everything". Uh I see another rift coming if this happens. Greicy From seventhsqueal at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 16:41:25 2003 From: seventhsqueal at yahoo.com (SeventhSqueal) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 08:41:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another curse scar? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030324164125.27192.qmail@web10706.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54222 laylalast wrote: Anyway, I have begun to wonder whether there is another person around with a curse scar like Harry's. (snip) (Trelawney about his scar) Come now Potter, I have experience in these matters!' (snip) (Fudge to Dumbledore:) 'You'll forgive me, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm bell before...' Apparantly in the earlier versions Fudge says 'I've never heard...'. As I have a rather recent version of GoF, I assume that he has heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm bell, which for some (yet?) unknown reason was not an alarm at all (at least in Fudge's opinion). 7thSqueal screams: What! Is this true? Another change between different editions of the same book. *Going bonkersmad and pulling out hair* Quote from Layla: If Dumbledore is aware of this person, my guess is that he will keep quiet about it because the person in question is rather vulnerable or even better, related to one of teachers at Hogwarts (my pet theory, which is not quite crystallized -did I spell that right? SeventhSqueal responds: I like what you've spotted Layla. The only other people that we know of so far that have sensitive scars are the Deatheaters! Bwa ha ha ha! The Dark Mark is described as a 'brand' and has some similar qualities to Harry's scar. Interesting, very interesting. Thanx for posting this I'm going to have fun thinking about it. As for the suggestion that the line about Fudge and scars has been edited in subsequent editions, if this is true it really muddies the waters for those of us who are trying to figure out how bad and to what degree Fudge is a bad guy. ~SeventhSqueal, mulling it over and trying to keep the nervous ticks under control. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grace701 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 16:39:51 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 16:39:51 -0000 Subject: The Longbottoms (was: Re: OoP Book covers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54223 jenny_ravenclaw wrote: > >>We know that Neville's parents are in St. Mungo's now and that >>when Neville goes to visit them, they don't recognize him. What >>if there's more to it than that? If many of us believe that Fudge >>would have Harry deemed insane, maybe he (or a previous Minister >>of Magic) sent the Longbottoms away as well. Maybe they know >>something that someone with a lot of power in the WW doesn't want >>to be known. We've seen characters in the Potterverse under all >>sorts of spells; perhaps the Longbottoms are not really insane but >>under the Imperius. > Annemehr: > Oh, good -- let's play with this! > Earlier I had proposed a theory that involves Lucius Malfoy. > A recap: > The Longbottoms were sent to St. Mungo's after being tortured > because they truly needed it. However, although they could have > eventually recovered, Lucius Malfoy is bribing someone there to > keep them alive but incapacitated (for reasons unknown). The > large contribution to St. Mungo's that Fudge mentions at the Q > World Cup is such a bribe (after all, we know that Lucius > doesn't actually care about poor ill wizards, now, don't we?). > There is a quote in the Rita Skeeter article (in which she > suggests Harry is unbalanced) that could come from a wizard in > league with Malfoy and up to no good. > > Now let's mix Jenny's theory and mine together. What if Fudge > *is* the one holding the Longbottoms in St. Mungo's in an > artificially maintained stupor? Maybe he's actually blackmailing > Lucius Malfoy because Malfoy actually had something to do with > their torture and wasn't caught, or maybe Fudge has an agent at > St. Mungo's who overheard the Longbottoms, in their distress, > raving about something incriminating they knew about Malfoy. > Fudge checked it out, realized it was true, and has been accepting > bribes through his St. Mungo's agent ever since, and thus needs to > keep the L's alive but helpless. > Fudge is still somewhat afraid of the formidable Lucius Malfoy, > however, and tries to mollify him somewhat by getting him prime > tickets to sporting events and otherwise letting Malfoy exert his > influence in the MoM. > We also know, from the few lines of OoP that have been released, > Dumbledore will share something important with Harry; something > that(I'm guessing) Harry needs and deserves to know. Perhaps the > Longbottoms were more connected to Harry's parents than we > thought, and Harry takes it upon himself (as we know he likes to > do) to get them out of St. Mungo's. > > > > Annemehr: > Yeah. The Longbottoms could be very important in the fight > against > Voldemort, and here's idiot Fudge keeping them locked away for the > sake of some money and a battle of wills with Lucius Malfoy! And > Harry goes to get them out -- I hope he does it *with* Neville, > though. I've been hoping for more of Neville through three books > now... > > > > Or maybe the recent political events here in the US are just making > me > > think more about conspiracies... > > Huh? I LOVE YOUR THEORIES!!!! I always had a feeling the Longbottoms know something they shouldn't know and that someone is keeping them in St. Mungo's because they know something. Though I'd like to think that the Longbottoms know something about BOTH Fudge and Malfoy. Greicy, who also thinks Harry on OoP doesn't look like Daniel Radcliffe and who is willing to buy an OoP shirt if Scholastic ever replies to Annemehr From grace701 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 16:46:15 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 16:46:15 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy?/ Harry's Funeral In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030324112613.00c758d0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54224 Greicy wrote: >>Greicy, with my usual sneaky H/H comments! Troels wrote: > We have in Danish an adage claiming that what the heart is > full of, the mouth spills over with (I suppose that a > similar adage exists in English, but I know it not :-) > > When Hermione is with her one sure suitor, Mr Krum, he still > has some complaints: "'Hermy-own-ninny talks about you very > often' said Krum, looking suspiciously at Harry" > > Whatever the eventual outcome, I will maintain that so far > the weight of the evidence is for a H/H ship I like the way you worked that saying Troels. If Krum is suspicious, it must be for a reason. Why does Hermione speak a lot about Harry and not of Ron? But then again the story is from Harry's point of view and we would never know if Krum confronted Ron as well. Yet given the fact that Ron seems to be anti/pro Krum, I'd guess he would have mentioned to Harry that Krum spoke to him about Hermione. So we would have at least had some knowledge that they spoke. At the end, when Ron asks for Krum's autograph, I got the impression that Ron never bothered to talk to him. Which brings it all back to: Why does Hermione speak a lot about Harry? So much to make him be suspicious. Greicy, being sneaky ;) From grace701 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 16:50:36 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 16:50:36 -0000 Subject: I'd like Individual book covers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54225 You know what I'd like: Individual book covers of Harry, Ron and Hermione. It would make great marketing. I know I'd buy all of them. ;) What do you guys think? Also, I get the opportunity to see GrandPre's Ron and Hermione up close for once! Greicy From aesob at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 16:55:28 2003 From: aesob at yahoo.com (Alex) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 16:55:28 -0000 Subject: more on OoP cover (was Re: Two comments) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54226 > cantoramy wrote: > > I don't know why, but my first thought was that the MG cover was > > just a "mock up" and that the colors would be added in before the > > actual printing. nobodysrib: > As someone who works in publishing, I very much doubt that they would > release non-finished book images. As a designer who works for a marketing company, I agree and would like to add that there's no way Scholastic would release preliminary art to the public, especially for a book like this one that so many people are anticipating. This art wasn't leaked, it was publicly released. Also, to the other poster who thought that the cover was a ruse, I think that Scholastic would suffer a huge backlash by the bookselling community if come June the books are delivered with a different cover than the one that the major booksellers (including Amazon and Barnes & Noble) are already using for advertising! > cantoramy wrote: > > After all, they have 3 months. nobodysrib: > In the publishing world, three months isn't all that much time to > make changes. At this point in time, I imagine that the books are at > least in their final formatted version, if not already being printed. Indeed if it's not entirely designed and laid out, it's probably mostly done and they have probably begun printing or will be doing so shortly. The complexity of printing 8.5 million copies of a book as thick as OoP is immense and very time-consuming. That's over 7.5 billion pages to get printed, placed in the correct order and bound! The dust cover is the last step and the easiest part, but that's the most important piece for booksellers to have for their own marketing efforts. I have to believe that the book cover we're seeing is final, and that GrandPre, JKR and Scholastic are ok with it. ~~aesob From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 17:00:49 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 17:00:49 -0000 Subject: Harry and "I Love You" (was: Who is the boy?/ Harry's Funeral) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54227 Nobody's rib wrote: My turn: Hermione saying it first makes sense, but that could also cause some problems. Like Ron getting jealous. Or Harry not being sure how to interpret the words (he is a teenager, after all). I'd hate for this moment to get entangled with petty emotionalities. So here's another candidate. I hope that the first time he hears it is from a parental-figure: Hagrid. ==================================================================== Greicy wrote YES! Hagrid, Harry's "hero" in a way, would be more than perfect to be the first person to tell him I love you, for the reasons you stated. And it would be perfect in OoP being that Hagrid is a candidate for death, making it dramatic. ==================================================================== Hello all, Fred waldrop here While I think it would be great for Hagrid to tell harry he loves him or Hermione for that matter, I think of one other that would be better. (Page 714 GoF, US) "Mrs Weasley set the potion down on the bed side cabinet, bent down, and put her arms around Harry. He had no memory of ever being hugged like this, as though by a mother." Yes, my candidate is, Molly Weasley, someone he now considers a "mother figure". (A side note, page 700, GoF), "I'm alright", he told them, "just tired." "Mrs Weasley's eyes filled with tears as she smooth his bed covers unnecessarily." There have been so many people that have already shown Harry they love him, as he has shown them he loves them also. But, Mrs. Weasley is the first he has looked at as family, a mother figure. Fred From cindysphynx at comcast.net Mon Mar 24 17:48:55 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 17:48:55 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: New Poll Regarding OoP Release Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54228 Greetings from Hexquarters! The Moderator Team is considering policy changes for the release of OoP. With your help, we'd like to find a way to maintain the high-quality discussion that has made this list truly unique in the fandom, while at the same time allowing our community to enjoy and celebrate the arrival of OoP. One of our goals is to keep the main list focused on discussion of the HP books themselves, with more light-hearted and personal experiences posted on our sister list, OT-Chatter, just as they are now. An additional concern is that the Moderators, Elves and Geists will be busily reading the book too, so we are searching for ways to maintain our standards on the main list at a time when we will have very few people available to help moderate, at least in the early stages. So far, we have decided that there will be two outlets for those wishing to post their first impressions and experiences. First, we will have our chat room (known as "The Shrieking Shack") available for list members who would like to share their first impressions of the book with other members. Second, OT-Chatter will be open for all types of conversation, as usual. Our dilemma, then, is whether to keep the main list open for posting or whether to close the main list for some period (probably 36 hours) following the midnight release of OoP in the UK. If the list were closed, members could read the archives, the "Fantastic Posts" and the files, polls and databases on the main list, but they could not post new messages. The arguments on both sides are: REASONS TO KEEP THE MAIN LIST OPEN: OoP release is a long-awaited and important event in the fandom, and it would be a shame to close the list at a time when list members are most eager to discuss the new canon. After all, the very purpose of the main list is to promote discussion, and closing the main list will make serious canon discussion impossible (aside from chat and OT-Chatter) for some period of time, even for those who finish the book very quickly. The release of OoP is the most important event in the fandom, so the main list should stay open for canon discussion. REASONS TO CLOSE THE MAIN LIST FOR 36 HOURS: Our members may appreciate an opportunity to buy and read OoP at a reasonable pace without worrying about missing out on main list discussion. After all, if we'd like posts to the main list to make canon points about OoP, it is reasonable to give members time to read OoP. When members are finished reading, they will have far fewer posts to catch up on than if the list remains open, which may improve the quality of discussion overall. We'd like to know what our members think about closing the list for OoP, so we are creating a poll. The poll is for advisory purposes only; there are other administrative issues that will influence our decision, of course. You can only vote once in the poll, although you can change your vote at any time before the poll closes. The poll will not display names or results for now. Finally, we would like to hear *any* thoughts, ideas, comments or suggestions you may have about any issues or policies related to the release of OoP. Please send your remarks to: Mods_Elves_Geists at yahoogroups.com We will most definitely read and consider your messages, although we won't be able to guarantee you a reply or acknowledgement. So please. Tell us what you think! Cindy, for the Mods From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Mon Mar 24 17:50:47 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 11:50:47 -0600 Subject: The Map Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54229 Finwich wrote: "It may do more than show good map/people. It *has* seen trough polyjuice AND animagi. Hmm... Does Dumbledore have something to hide the map may reveal? (Animagus trying to hide? Timeturner!Weasley?) Anyway, Dumbledore must have been shocked to find there's something related to Hogwarts he doesn't know but someone else does!" I respond: Ahh, but if Dumbledore IS Ron, he's probably accepted the persona of Albus Dumbledore by now; after living at least 130 years by a certain name, I assume one would think of onesself by that name. Perhaps the Map doesn't call Ron!Dumbledore Ronald Weasley because he has changed identities. He IS Albus Dumbledore now, while Fake!Moody was only pretending to be Moody. To clarify my thoughts (I hope...), the map shows how one thinks of onesself: Crouch Jr. thought of himself as Crouch, so he was shown as Crouch. Dumbledore, however, now thinks of himself as Dumbledore, so he is shown as Dumbledore. Or something like that. Hobbit-guy, rejoicing that his first fanfic, "Tempus Fugit," is on Fiction-Alley, (and it's about this topic, too!) "You haven't been getting into the Gaffer's home brew again, have you?" "No... Well, yes, but that's beside the point." -Frodo and Bilbo Baggins, Fellowship of the Rings Extended Edition DVD From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 17:50:09 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 17:50:09 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy?/ Harry's Funeral In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54230 Troels wrote: When Hermione is with her one sure suitor, Mr Krum, he still has some complaints: "'Hermy-own-ninny talks about you very often' said Krum, looking suspiciously at Harry" Whatever the eventual outcome, I will maintain that so far the weight of the evidence is for a H/H ship ==================================================================== Greicy, being sneaky, wrote If Krum is suspicious, it must be for a reason. Why does Hermione speak a lot about Harry and not of Ron? At the end, when Ron asks for Krum's autograph, I got the impression that Ron never bothered to talk to him. Which brings it all back to: Why does Hermione speak a lot about Harry? So much to make him be suspicious. ==================================================================== Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; I can see several reasons why Krum talked to Harry about this and not Ron. 1)Harry was available and Ron was not, and Krum never said she did not talk about Ron. 2) Harry and Krum were both in the Triwizard Tournament, not Ron and Krum. And Hermione wanted Krum to know that Harry was her best friend, and not to ask her questions about what he was going to do. 3)Maybe Krum just wanted to see where Hermione stood with Harry and Ron, but before he could ask about Ron, Crouch Sr. showed up. Plus, there were at least two different times that Hermione got mad when Ron looked at Fleur (when Fleur kissed Ron by the lake after the 2nd task, "Fleur swooped down and kissed him. Hermione looked simply furious" [page 506] and at the end of term when Ron said "It's very good already, Fleur smiled at him; Hermione scowled. [page 724]) and I do not know how many times Ron got mad when he seen Hermione with Krum. So, if I had to guess who will get with whom, I would have to go with a Hermione / Ron (ship). If it is suppost to be a H/H ship, why doesn't Hermione get mad when Fleur kisses Harry? Just my opinion though. And admittedly, I want a Harry / Ginny ship & a Ron / Hermione ship, mainly because Ginny can give Harry what he wants and needs, a big ole family to go home to, the Weasleys Fred From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Mon Mar 24 17:55:55 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 24 Mar 2003 17:55:55 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1048528555.139.96105.w16@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54231 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: OoP will likely be released in the UK, Australia and various other countries at 12:00 a.m. London time on June 21, 2003, and in the US and Canada shortly thereafter. The Moderator Team is trying to decide whether to close the main list for some period (probably 36 hours) following the release so that our membership can have time to acquire and read the book. Which would you prefer? o No, please don't close the list; I'd like to be free to post as soon as I'm ready to post and I don't wish to wait 36 hours. o Yes, please close the list; I'd like some time to read the book without feeling pressure to do so in less than 36 hours. o Undecided. To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=1052099 Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Mon Mar 24 17:13:46 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 17:13:46 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and respect Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54232 >To put it bluntly, learned colleagues, I don't blame Harry a bit for not >always being perfectly respectful of his elders. Quite a few of those >elders do not behave in ways that deserve respect, and I have always >believed that respect must be earned, not just "strewn gratis on the common >ground, >like pearls before grunting swine." > [snip of excellent examples] I totally agree, Eric. I think the whole thing about Harry showing insufficient respect for elders simply because they are "elder" is a bit of a canard, personally. He's had very poor role models - okay, let's take the Dursleys. First of all, the Dursleys are meant to be *caricatures* - I do not expect any real redemption for them, nor hidden deep secrets, because they are meant to be an amalgam of all irrational prejudices against both muggles and wizards that are out there. It's amazing that Harry *isn't* in a place like St. Mungo's owing to the treatment that's been doled out over the years; the Dursleys are lucky that Harry evidently got a sweet nature genetically, and isn't the vengeful sort who will set their house on fire while they're all sleeping in their beds. There are times when it is appropriate to question authority, or even to defy it when it does wrong; and one doesn't flip a switch at age 18 and suddenly emerge with that sort of backbone. Trusting and obeying some of the adults in the WW that we've been shown could have had fatal or injurious consequences. Disturbing as that is to modern American adults, it's the truth. I was raised by parents prejudiced against African-Americans and Asians, especially Japanese; should I have obeyed them as a child and taken on their attitudes? Especially when I knew them to be wrong? Same with Harry: he knows that Uncle Vernon and Aunt Petunia are just plain wrong about some of the things they think and do. It's not quite clear how he acquired this sensibility, but have it he does; I always find nature v. nurture questions fascinating when they pop up in fiction, because they are often quite different from what we are taught by modern pop psychology. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Mon Mar 24 17:16:59 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 17:16:59 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione aging via Time Turner Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54233 > > > (It also makes it less > > creepy that Krum at 18 yo is so smitten by Hermione > > at 15 yo.) > >David wrote: > >I find it hard to understand why this should be > > thought creepy. > > Nobody at Hogwarts seems to mind the age difference, > > whatever other > > objections they may have. She may be 14 for most of > > GOF, of > > course ;-) . > > >I write: > >This has probably been said before, but I would like >to point out that Ron only said "just 18 OR SO." It >is perfectly conceivable that Krum is seventeen, and >probably more accurate. That makes it a two or three >year age difference between Krum and Hermione. Plus, >Hermione is extremely mature for her age. > Heh. There's nothing unusual about this at all. Hermione is mentally very mature for her age, and generally girls mature faster than boys in this phase of life. She seems to have her head screwed on solidly; and we know nothing about Krum, but I'm guessing his life has included sports, sports and more sports up until this point. She may even be the first interest he's been able to actually talk to. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From julia at thequiltbug.com Mon Mar 24 18:36:30 2003 From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:36:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: SHIP: Why I dislike H/G Message-ID: <20030324103631.18411.h007.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> No: HPFGUIDX 54234 Fred wrote: > Just my opinion though. And admittedly, I want a Harry / Ginny ship & > a Ron / Hermione ship, mainly because Ginny can give Harry what he > wants and needs, a big ole family to go home to, the Weasleys I don't like the H/G ship, for this very reason (and why I often stay away from R/Hr fics, because they are so often coupled with H/G). I feel this like of reasoning is demeaning to both Ginny and Harry on many levels, mainly: 1) It implies that there is nothing attractive about Ginny other than her family, and that Harry would *only* be with her for her family. That's exactly the same as saying if she were rich, he would be with her for her money. 2) It implies that Harry is so desperate for a family he would be with a girl only for her family, not for who she is and what is special about *her*. 3) It implies that the Weasleys, in the long term, would not be as affectionate to Harry unless he's officially a "part of the family" - which is ridiculous, because they obviously love him tons now. I think Harry could run off with Fleur or Cho or just about anyone short of Mrs. Lestrange and the Weasleys would still love him. In addition, there has been *no* development of Ginny's character in four whole books. Zip, zilch, zero. Harry is going to need a girl with backbone, someone who can take care of herself and him too, not a damsel-in-distress type. I'm not saying Ginny *can't* be that way, but we don't know anything about her one way or the other yet. Obviously that objection would disappear if JKR actually *does* something with Ginny besides have her fawn over Harry from afar in book 5. If she waits till after this book, IMO it's too late. Just my two knuts. --Calliope http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/ http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ From grace701 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 18:42:55 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 18:42:55 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy?/ Harry's Funeral In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54235 Troels wrote: When Hermione is with her one sure suitor, Mr Krum, he still has some complaints: "'Hermy-own-ninny talks about you very often' said Krum, looking suspiciously at Harry". Whatever the eventual outcome, I will maintain that so far the weight of the evidence is for a H/H ship ==================================================================== Greicy, being sneaky, wrote If Krum is suspicious, it must be for a reason. Why does Hermione speak a lot about Harry and not of Ron? At the end, when Ron asks for Krum's autograph, I got the impression that Ron never bothered to talk to him. Which brings it all back to: Why does Hermione speak a lot about Harry? So much to make him be suspicious. ==================================================================== Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; I can see several reasons why Krum talked to Harry about this and not Ron. 1)Harry was available and Ron was not, and Krum never said she did not talk about Ron. 2) Harry and Krum were both in the Triwizard Tournament, not Ron and Krum. And Hermione wanted Krum to know that Harry was her best friend, and not to ask her questions about what he was going to do. 3)Maybe Krum just wanted to see where Hermione stood with Harry and Ron, but before he could ask about Ron, Crouch Sr. showed up. Plus, there were at least two different times that Hermione got mad when Ron looked at Fleur (when Fleur kissed Ron by the lake after the 2nd task, "Fleur swooped down and kissed him. Hermione looked simply furious" [page 506] and at the end of term when Ron said "It's very good already, Fleur smiled at him; Hermione scowled. [page 724]) and I do not know how many times Ron got mad when he seen Hermione with Krum. So, if I had to guess who will get with whom, I would have to go with a Hermione / Ron (ship). If it is suppost to be a H/H ship, why doesn't Hermione get mad when Fleur kisses Harry? Just my opinion though. And admittedly, I want a Harry / Ginny ship & a Ron / Hermione ship, mainly because Ginny can give Harry what he wants and needs, a big ole family to go home to, the Weasleys ===================================================================== I, Greicy, write: In regards to "2) Harry and Krum were both in the Triwizard Tournament, not Ron and Krum. And Hermione wanted Krum to know that Harry was her best friend, and not to ask her questions about what he was going to do." If Hermione wanted Krum to know that Harry is her bestfriend and to not ask her questions about what is he going to do, it means, imo, that she would have only told him once. It sounds like Krum has been hearing Hermione speak too much about Harry any time he is with her. Why would she consistantly tell Krum Harry's my bestfriend don't ask me any questions about what he is going to do for this task because I won't tell you? That would imply that Krum has been asking her for information about Harry, which is not true because she defends herself against Ron, at the Yule Ball, when he accuses Krum of getting close to her only to find out about Harry. She says that he hasn't asked about Harry's involvement in the Tournament (paraphrasing). 3)Maybe Krum just wanted to see where Hermione stood with Harry and Ron, but before he could ask about Ron, Crouch Sr. showed up. Well as I said before, the book is in Harry's POV, so we'll never know if Krum confronted Ron. But I would think Ron would have mentioned something. I won't deny, Ron and Hermione like each other, but the question is: Are they right for each other? Their bickering maybe entertaining, but will it help the relationship last? And Harry will still have a big ol' happy family regardless of who he dates/marries because it seems to me he has been unofficially adopted by Mrs. Weasley. Greicy, who just doesn't give up on H/H ... lol ;) From manawydan at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 24 18:45:00 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 18:45:00 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Taxes References: <1048469872.5265.7950.m13@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001b01c2f235$910e09c0$e57c0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 54236 Steve writes: > > ... British wizarding gov't might not have any taxes, because > > it might have some better source of income. > > Just curious about what some of these better sources of income might be? It's been discussed before in the context of where Hogwarts and the old wizard families get their money, but possibly they have a sufficiently large stash at Gringotts to be able to cover their expenses from the interest. Once upon a time I wondered if it might come from fines and confiscations, but the evidence about Sirius Black still having a Gringotts deposit after absconding from Azkeban means that that theory wouldn't work. If they do have taxes, it's sure to be an entirely unrecognisable system from the Muggle one - wizards aren't logical, after all... > record. Even if the land has been owned by the Weasley family for > generations, or if it had been previously owned by another wizard, the > government isn't going to overlook a single penny of tax revenue. I > suspect the every square foot of land in Britain is accounted for, and > somebody is paying taxes on it. Certainly in the UK, detailed government records on everything and everyone are fairly recent. It used to be very strongly held that you had a right not to have your details on record and this persisted until round about the 1910s when things like National Insurance and PAYE were introduced and you started to have big departments in charge of tracking people. But wizardly properties that dated from _before_ then could easily not exist, if no one had drawn attention to them. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From gregorylynn at attbi.com Mon Mar 24 18:07:29 2003 From: gregorylynn at attbi.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 13:07:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] some thoughts on Year 5 References: Message-ID: <004f01c2f230$3c8caf00$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54237 If we buy the theory that Chamber of Secrets was all about foreshadowing and so forth, might it not be possible that Dumbledore's revelation about Voldemort got him suspended or actually sacked? That would leave, I presume, either Snape or McGonagall as Headmaster/Headmistress or conceivably someone from the outside. Depending on how far Voldemort has infiltrated his little weasels into the Ministry, could he not have some influence on the selection? If we assume for the moment that Fudge isn't just a dope, but actually agressively evil, might he not arrange to have a Voldemort friendly headmaster? Someone like a former school governor who has been outspoken about the way Dumbledore ran the school? Someone like Lucius Malfoy? And if that happens, what do the Dumble-o-philes like the Weasleys do? Will they continue to send their children to Hogwarts? Will they be allowed to? I presume the muggle borns wouldn't. Would Dumbledore set up a Hogwarts in exile? ___________ Gregory Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: grace701 To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 10:13 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] some thoughts on Year 5 Being that it is year 5, prefects are chosen and I will be expecting for Hermione to send Harry an owl in which she states that she is a Gryffindor Prefect. Plus, I'd like to even see Draco as a Slytherin Prefect. I wouldn't be surprised at all because we haven't hear anything about his being stupid like Goyle or Crabbe, whoever had the lowest grades in SS/PS. Now, I want to know if the Death Eaters (Crabbe, Goyle, Nott, Malfoy, etc.) are going to let their children attend Hogwarts this year being that Voldemort is back. I know Dumbledore isn't going to have a problem because he is, after all, open-minded. Could the DE's have their own children be spies? Uh....that'll be so interesting. Not only an epic war in the WW, but a war in Hogwarts itself! How are HRH going to interact with MCG knowing what they know about them? Will HRH start their own "crowd"? How about recruiting Neville, Susan Bones and Fawcett? I would like to see some more Defense Classes besides Defense Against the Arts. I must admit, I have been influenced by the FF Draco Sinister. I'd like for Harry, Ron and Hermione (and the rest of them) to learn how to fence and duel. Obviously, Voldemort expected Harry to know how to duel in GoF, so why not have Flitwick teach an extra class. Maybe they could even learn how to use bows and arrows a al Legolas (look below)! My whole point is: They need to learn how to defend themselves! Voldemort HAS returned! Not everyone can be like HRH. ;) >>side note: It seems that wizards have cross-bred. Why haven't I heard any mentions of cross-breeding with Elves, not house-elves, actual elves. Maybe JK is leaving that for later?<< Now back to a question I had that I'd like to bring up, again. Will parents let their children go back to Hogwarts after learning that Dumbledore told them that Voldemort is back? There are parents who value Dumbledore and his opinions like Mrs. Weasley, but what of parents who are in denial like Fudge (although I think he's a traitor)? What about the Muggle parents who don't understand what is going on, like Hermione's and Dean's? What will Hermione and Dean tell them when they recieve an owl from Hogwarts about an evil wizard that's come back to try to take over the WW? I hope JK answers some of these questions. I have a feeling Hogwarts may have a smaller amount of students this year than last year, making the castle solitary, which I don't think is a good idea because there is safty in numbers. Greicy, who is thinking V will make his own school for DE's children or will have the DE children try to take over Hogwarts themselves Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 19:24:03 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 19:24:03 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Why I dislike H/G In-Reply-To: <20030324103631.18411.h007.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54238 "Calliope" wrote: I don't like the H/G ship, for this very reason (and why I often stay away fromR/Hr fics, because they are so often coupled with H/G). I feel this like ofreasoning is demeaning to both Ginny and Harry on many levels, mainly: 1) It implies that there is nothing attractive about Ginny other than herfamily, and that Harry would *only* be with her for her family. That's exactly the same as saying if she were rich, he would be with her for her money. 2) It implies that Harry is so desperate for a family he would be with a girl only for her family, not for who she is and what is special about *her*. 3) It implies that the Weasleys, in the long term, would not be as affectionate to Harry unless he's officially a "part of the family" - which is ridiculous, because they obviously love him tons now. I think Harry could run off with Fleur or Cho or just about anyone short of Mrs. Lestrange and the Weasleys would still love him. In addition, there has been *no* development of Ginny's character in four whole books. Zip, zilch, zero. Harry is going to need a girl with backbone, someone who can take care of herself and him too, not a damsel-in-distress type. I'm not saying Ginny *can't* be that way, but we don't know anything about her one way or the other yet. Obviously that objection would disappear if JKR actually *does* something with Ginny besides have her fawn over Harry from afar in book 5. If she waits till after this book, IMO it's too late. Just my two knuts. ===================================================================== Hello all, Fred Waldrop here Calliope, Apparently, I did not make myself understood very well. As for #1 of you statement, yes, the very last few words did mention that Ginny could offer Harry a large family. BUT, I did not mean this was the only thing Ginny could offer, just that it was ONE thing she has to offer, not everything. #2 of you statement, It might imply "that Harry is so desperate for a family he would be with a girl only for her family" to you, but not to me. Yes, if *anyone* marries someone who has a large family, that family sorta comes along. But that is not the only thing that anyone should consider. #3 of your statement, once more, to me it does not imply that Harry has to "be a part of the family" to be accepted. Just that if H/G were together, he would see the Weasley's more than if he were with Cho or whom ever. #4 of your statement, (I am assuming)"there has been *no* development of Ginny's character". Well, Ginny wasn't really in #1(P/S), she was too young to go to school. And until now, there was no real need to build her character much . None of the people in that year has a *ship* going on, that I know of anyway. It seems that R/H are close to it, but not yet, as of GoF. And #5 of your statement, why would it be too late for JKR to build a relationship between anyone later? Or for that matter, why does JKR have to build up Ginny before book 7? She seems to be able to build up a whole lot at the very end of a book, so why does she have to start something that will not be able to go anywhere before the end of the books? Harry and *?* will not be able to have much of any kind of a relationship before the end, mainly because, he will be to busy fighting He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. Fred (who still does not know who will fall in love with whom, but does know this, he will go crazy before book 6 comes out) From patricia at obscure.org Mon Mar 24 19:28:39 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 14:28:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] some thoughts on Year 5 In-Reply-To: <004f01c2f230$3c8caf00$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54239 On Mon, 24 Mar 2003, Gregory Lynn wrote: > If we buy the theory that Chamber of Secrets was all about foreshadowing > and so forth, might it not be possible that Dumbledore's revelation > about Voldemort got him suspended or actually sacked? That would leave, > I presume, either Snape or McGonagall as Headmaster/Headmistress or > conceivably someone from the outside. Depending on how far Voldemort > has infiltrated his little weasels into the Ministry, could he not have > some influence on the selection? If we assume for the moment that Fudge > isn't just a dope, but actually agressively evil, might he not arrange > to have a Voldemort friendly headmaster? Someone like a former school > governor who has been outspoken about the way Dumbledore ran the school? > Someone like Lucius Malfoy? Hogwarts is not a government entity; therefore, it is unlikely that the Ministry bureaucracy or Fudge in particular has the authority to fire Dumbledore or select a replacement. That would be like the muggle Prime Minister deciding who should be headmaster as Eton. In CoS when Dumbledore was suspended as headmaster, it was the school governors who made the decision, and if he gets fired or suspended again it should still be their decision, not Fudge's. Of course, in CoS we saw that the governors were susceptible to pressure from Malfoy, but they later rallied and got him kicked off the board and restored Dumbledore to his rightful position. Given that history with Malfoy, I think it's unlikely the governors would select Malfoy as headmaster even if they did decide to sack Dumbledore for some reason. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 19:49:49 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 19:49:49 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy?/ Harry's Funeral In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54240 Greicy wrote: (I, Fred put the numbers*1),2)*ect. in Greicy's post) 1)If Hermione wanted Krum to know that Harry is her bestfriend and to not ask her questions about what is he going to do, it means, imo, that she would have only told him once. It sounds like Krum has been hearing Hermione speak too much about Harry any time he is with her. Why would she consistantly tell Krum Harry's my bestfriend don't ask me any questions about what he is going to do for this task because I won't tell you? That would imply that Krum has been asking her for information about Harry, which is not true because she defends herself against Ron, at the Yule Ball, when he accuses Krum of getting close to her only to find out about Harry. She says that he hasn't asked about Harry's involvement in the Tournament (paraphrasing). 2)Well as I said before, the book is in Harry's POV, so we'll never know if Krum confronted Ron. But I would think Ron would have mentioned something. 3)I won't deny, Ron and Hermione like each other, but the question is: Are they right for each other? Their bickering maybe entertaining, but will it help the relationship last? 4)And Harry will still have a big ol' happy family regardless of who he dates/marries because it seems to me he has been unofficially adopted by Mrs. Weasley. ==================================================================== Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; Greicy, I will try and answer your questions. 1)My point was, Hermione was talking about her bestfriends. IMO, she probably talked about BOTH her friends, Harry and RON. And seeing as Krum was able to talk to Harry alone, he asked him first. I was not trying to say that she only talked about Harry, Just that Krum did not have time to ask about Ron. 2)As stated above, Krum never talked to Ron as he never had time to. And he did not ask Harry about Ron either, because before he could, Crouch Sr. showed up and pretty much stopped their conversation. 3) Don't know if R/H could have a lasting *ship*. But as of yet, no one in Harry's year has a *ship* going on, that I have read of anyway. 4)I also did not say the Weasleys will disown Harry if he does not marry Ginny. My point was, if Harry marries Cho or *whoever*, he will not see them (the Weasley's) *AS OFTEN*. I hope this helps answer some of your questions. Fred From tcyhunt at earthlink.net Mon Mar 24 20:00:18 2003 From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (tcyhunt) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 20:00:18 -0000 Subject: OoP meaning - was: book covers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54241 > Ethanol: > > > We kind of always assumed that this Order of the Phoenix would be > good or helpful for Harry. But if you think about the earlier >titles they always refered to something that came as a challenge to >him: the Philosopher's stone, the Chamber of Secrets and the Goblets >of Fire all caused him some kind of trouble. Yes, the Prisoner of >Azkaban kind off sticks out there. But for the longest time Harry >thought in that book that Sirius was the villain, so it mentions a >challenge as well. > > > > Wouldn't it be strange if all of a sudden, the title mentions > something that's beneficial to Harry? >>> snip of thoughts on the titles of books 1-4 <<<< Me: Ethonal's thoughts on the significance of titles got me thinking about alternate meanings of the title group: What if the 'Order of the Phoenix' is not about a specific phoenix (Fawkes) but more about the qualities of the phoenix in general? Perhaps it has more to do with rebirth, healing or some other magical properties surrounding the phoenix? Maybe the members of the group posess some of these qualities in some form? This is just the early sparks of a theory (that will probably die quickly - but what the heck)...can anyone offer some more thoughts on this? Tcy (quickly re-lurking) From snowwy54 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 20:07:34 2003 From: snowwy54 at yahoo.com (Susan Snow) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 12:07:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:OoP meaning - was: book covers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030324200734.29281.qmail@web41305.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54242 --- tcyhunt wrote: > Me: alternate meanings of the title group: What if the 'Order of the Phoenix' is not about a specific phoenix(Fawkes) but more about the qualities of the phoenix in general? Perhaps it has more to do with rebirth, healing or some other magical properties surrounding the phoenix? Maybe the members of the group posess some of these qualities in some form? Tcy (quickly re-lurking) Snowwy just remembered: Didn't JR state that Harry would have to examine death in even closer ways? Maybe he dies but is reborn somehow and therefore becomes a member of the order of phoenix.... not that I really believe it but food for thought Snowwy __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Mon Mar 24 19:52:36 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 19:52:36 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Why I dislike H/G Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54243 [gently turns off rant mode :-)] I find that I *do* like the possibility of a long-term Harry=Ginny coupling, either in the books or projected beyond, because I can't help but see a very different and more positive spin on some of the points raised here: >1) It implies that there is nothing attractive about Ginny other than >herfamily, and that Harry would *only* be with her for her family. >That's exactly the same as saying if she were rich, he would be with >her for her money. At *this* point, yes. However, we only have four of the books to go on - just over halfway "there", "there" being the end. That's still a long way in which we can have some development of Ginny's unique and special qualities. And I'm kind of old-fashioned: for me, in fiction or in life, there *has* to be something *other* than "attractiveness" to make me believe there's love and longevity there. We haven't seen a lot of Ginny so far, but what we've seen indicates that there is a loving heart, a devotion to family, and a budding ability to speak out even when she might get laughed at or attacked - sending Harry a very public valentine was a great way to open the door on being ridiculed by a large portion of the school, including her numerous older and creative brothers. Personally, I believe that someone having a large, loving, accepting family is just about the exact opposite of the monetary example of wealth as a motivating factor. Modern values would have us think of marriage as something only intensely personal and selfish, and it really isn't: it connects two families - especially if there are children - that mother-in-law you can barely tolerate now is your child's grandparent, and you are tied for the rest of your lives whether you like it or not. I personally think that Ginny's family is a huge positive attractor and a big plus if we're speaking long term. Short term crushes, first kisses, there I could see "cute" as the only factor. ;-) >2) It implies that Harry is so desperate for a family he would be >with a girl only for her family, not for who she is and what is >special about *her*. Ummmm...I realize I may not have much chance of succeeding long term, but I always have to ask where I can: is there any possibility of flushing the term "desperate" from the lexicon of human relations to one another? ;-) It tends to put a very negative spin on positive, intense feelings and leads to games of chasing the ones who run away. (I'll get off my socio-psychological soapbox now. ;-)) Anyway: Harry probably *would* really like a loving, supportive family. So? Something positive that he wants is supposed to *not* be appealing to him? I don't think that's very reasonable in terms of human emotion and motivation - no slight intended to you in the least. >3) It implies that the Weasleys, in the long term, would not be as >affectionate to Harry unless he's officially a "part of the family" - >which is ridiculous, because they obviously love him tons now. I >think Harry could run off with Fleur or Cho or just about anyone >short of Mrs. Lestrange and the Weasleys would still love him. And here, I agree. Of course they will. I doubt they're trying to maneuver Ginny and Harry together - they're both too young at this point. As I alluded earlier, I rather suspect Ginny gets merciless teasing about it. And I don't think that Harry would allow anything other than a powerful feeling to make him serious in pursuit of Ginny. One thing you're not mentioning here is Ginny's feelings about *him*. I, for one, strongly believe that him saving her will increase her feelings for him over time. And I think Harry would be a sensible young man to allow someone having strong feelings for him be a factor in his returning them and coming to love someone who loves him, rather than chasing the unattainable - like Cho. >In addition, there has been *no* development of Ginny's character in >four whole books. Zip, zilch, zero. Harry is going to need a girl >with backbone, someone who can take care of herself and him too, not >a damsel-in-distress type. I'm not saying Ginny *can't* be that way, >but we don't know anything about her one way or the other yet. As you say, not yet. :-) But there may yet be. This series if pretty tightly focused on the main trio. It would take a lot more text to do all of the development on the other characters. I have this vision of the three central juvenile characters as being "the ones" JKR has focused on, and the supporting characters as factors who influence, guide, impede and assist them in achieving their goals. >Obviously that objection would disappear if JKR actually *does* >something with Ginny besides have her fawn over Harry from afar in >book >5. If she waits till after this book, IMO it's too late. >Just my two knuts. My view? It's never too late. :-) Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From jmholmes at breckcomm.com Mon Mar 24 19:12:53 2003 From: jmholmes at breckcomm.com (Julie Holmes) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 12:12:53 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Why I dislike H/G References: <20030324103631.18411.h007.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> Message-ID: <004d01c2f239$5f41ca40$6401a8c0@arvada1.co.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54244 ----- Original Message ----- From: Calliope I totally don't ship H/G, but I think there is one scene in GOF I can point to, which shows Ginny with more character. The scene where Harry talks about taking her to the Yule Ball and she says No, she's going with Neville. It takes some measure of moral fortitude to keep a date with Neville (or whoever it may be- in Ginny's case it could be *anyone* who *isn't* Harry...) when one's dream boy has just asked her out. That shows a bit of backbone IMO. I'd like to see more development of Ginny in the rest of the series. I don't dislike her; simply, I don't know much about her, thus can't be too attached to her yet. Personally, I have a hard time shipping Ron with anybody. He is completely asexual in my mind. Completely. I can't imagine someone as intellectual as Hermione being satisfied with Ron for the long haul. But I suppose I can see a Hogwarts romance for them. H/Hr makes tons more sense to me. ~Julie (Slytherincess) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From julia at thequiltbug.com Mon Mar 24 20:52:42 2003 From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 12:52:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Why I dislike H/G Message-ID: <20030324125242.29563.h007.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> No: HPFGUIDX 54245 Julie wrote: > I totally don't ship H/G, but I think there is one scene in GOF I can point > to, which shows Ginny with more character. The scene where Harry talks about > taking her to the Yule Ball and she says No, she's going with Neville. It takes > some measure of moral fortitude to keep a date with Neville (or whoever it may > be- in Ginny's case it could be *anyone* who *isn't* Harry...) when one's dream > boy has just asked her out. That shows a bit of backbone IMO. I'd like to see > more development of Ginny in the rest of the series. I don't dislike her; > simply, I don't know much about her, thus can't be too attached to her yet. me: I can't believe I forgot that! I do like that part very much; it does show some backbone, and the fact she doesn't go back on a deal just because a better one might happen to come along. And it was kind of a "serves Harry and Ron right for being such weenies about asking girls out" kind of moment that made me laugh. Neville had managed to ask two different girls before Harry and Ron could get it together to ask anyone! (I love Neville, BTW.) --Calliope http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/ http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ From stix4141 at hotmail.com Mon Mar 24 21:08:57 2003 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 21:08:57 -0000 Subject: Voldemort addressing Pettigrew as "Wormtail" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54246 Does anyone know why Voldemort addresses Peter Pettigrew as "Wormtail"? This struck me as odd since "Wormtail" was the nickname his school friends gave him. I don't have my canon with me right now, but is there any place in GoF where Voldemort calls Peter by his name? In the DE circle, he calls all the other DE's present by their names when addressing them. I thought at first, maybe Voldemort did that to keep his DE's compartmentalized, but that can't be true after saying all those names in the DE circle. Plus, he called Peter "Wormtail" when no one else (except Frank Bryce) was present--Chap 1, GoF. Does anyone have any theories on this? Cheers! -stickbook From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 21:33:43 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 21:33:43 -0000 Subject: Fawkes: His Age, His Name and the Timing of Ollivander's Wand Production In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54247 Karen (karenoc1) wrote: > I think at least two things are possible: Fawkes is not as old > as we think, and Dumbledore named him himself, or Fawkes was not > originally owned by Dumbledore, and he is only around 300-390 years > old. Phoenixes are not immortal; they just have an extra-long life- > span, of say 500 years or so. Now me: In Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them, JKR tells us that the "phoenix lives to an immense age as it can regenerate, bursting into flames when its body begins to fail and rising again from the ashes as a chick" (p. 32). So, while phoenixes in Greek mythology might have a 500 year life-span, in the HP universe, the phoenix's life-span is simply referred to as "immense." So we don't know for sure exactly how long phoenixes live in the world JKR has created. With regard to his name, I think JKR named him Fawkes because bonfires are lit on Guy Fawkes day and phoenixes are reborn from fire. JKR has even admitted so herself in a 2000 interview with Scholastic (see: http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm): Q: "What is Bonfire Night?" JKR: "Good question! We celebrate November 5th in Britain every year. There was a plot to blow up the Houses of Parliament. The ringleader of the plot was called Guy Fawkes (spot any Harry Potter connection?!), and we burn him in effigy and set off fireworks to celebrate not losing our government." Karen again: > And since other wands have phoenix feathers (and Fawkes only gave > two feathers), I think it's safe to say that there have been more > than one phoenix in this Wizarding World. Whether or not more than > one phoenix exists at a given time may be in question, though. Me again: In Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them, JKR indicates that the "phoenix gains a XXXX rating not because it is aggressive, but because very few wizards have ever succeeded in domesticating it" (p. 32). So there is clearly more than one phoenix in the HP universe, but there appear to be few phoenixes such as Fawkes who have been domesticated. Anne U wrote: > So I'd also like to know whether Ollivander made these two wands at > approximately the same time, knowing that Tom Riddle and Harry > Potter *themselves* would eventually be chosen by the wands? Or did > he make them at the same time knowing that the two wands would > eventually choose two (as yet unknown to him) extremely powerful > wizards? Or did he make them at different times using tail feathers > given at different times?? Me again: Given Ollivander's surprise at Harry's compatibility with his wand, and given the number of wands Harry tried before he connected with his wand, I don't believe that Ollivander made the wand with Harry in mind. *However,* Anne's question about the timing of the making of the two wands got me thinking - what if Ollivander originally made just the one wand with Fawkes' feather as the core, which Tom Riddle purchased, and then when Riddle went bad, Ollivander asked Dumbledore for a second feather so he could create a second wand for the wizard who had the same potential for greatness as Voldemort and who, by making the correct choices, had the potential to vanquish Voldemort for good? Since the priori incantatem effect only happens when wands with the same core are forced to do battle, having the wizard who is destined to overthrow Voldemort in possession of a wand with the same core could provide a measure of safety if that wizard found himself battling with Voldemort. This theory would explain why Ollivander immediately wrote to Dumbledore to tell him that Harry had purchased the second wand - it was important for Dumbledore to know who this destined wizard was, to help him make the right choices along the way in order to ensure Voldemort's eventual defeat. ~Phyllis hoping Voldemort will eventually be defeated From julia at thequiltbug.com Mon Mar 24 21:39:39 2003 From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 13:39:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: SHIP: Why I dislike H/G Message-ID: <20030324133941.19255.h007.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> No: HPFGUIDX 54248 me: (Calliope) > >1) It implies that there is nothing attractive about Ginny other than > >her family, and that Harry would *only* be with her for her family. > >That's exactly the same as saying if she were rich, he would be with > >her for her money. Felinia: > Personally, I believe that someone having a large, loving, accepting family > is just about the exact opposite of the monetary example of wealth as a > motivating factor. Modern values would have us think of marriage as > something only intensely personal and selfish, and it really isn't: it > connects two families - especially if there are children - that > mother-in-law you can barely tolerate now is your child's grandparent, and > you are tied for the rest of your lives whether you like it or not. I > personally think that Ginny's family is a huge positive attractor and a big > plus if we're speaking long term. me again: Okay, maybe the money thing was a bad analogy. What I really object to is the argument that Harry and Ginny should be together "*because* it gives him the big Weasley family". If the argument were "Harry and Ginny should be together because their personalities mesh well together" or "Harry and Ginny should be together because they understand and communicate well with each other" then I wouldn't have such a problem. But to say they should be together *because of her family* doesn't sit well with me. I totally agree that Harry desires (and needs) a family. However, he really already *has* the Weasleys - through Ron. They have practically adopted him already. Look how Mrs. Weasley mothers him, especially at the end of GoF. Felinia wrote: > Ummmm...I realize I may not have much chance of succeeding long term, but I > always have to ask where I can: is there any possibility of flushing the > term "desperate" from the lexicon of human relations to one another? ;-) > It tends to put a very negative spin on positive, intense feelings and leads > to games of chasing the ones who run away. me: Okay bad choice of words. ;) How about "Harry *craves* a family"? Or *longs for*? (Though Dumbledore said the MoE shows the "deepest and most desperate desires of our hearts"...and Harry saw a family...) Felinia: > Anyway: Harry probably *would* > really like a loving, supportive family. So? Something positive that he > wants is supposed to *not* be appealing to him? I don't think that's very > reasonable in terms of human emotion and motivation - no slight intended to > you in the least. None taken. ;) No, I didn't mean that Harry's desire for a loving family is a bad thing...or that a family wouldn't be appealing to him. It's just that getting involved with someone *because* you like their family might not be such a great idea. (I know personal experience is irrelevant, but I dated a couple guys in high school, mumblemumble years ago, who it turned out had wonderful families - who I loved dearly, as I had a relatively volitale family myself - but the guys themselves were...less than compatible with me. Glad I didn't stick around with them for their families, as I wouldn't have my husband now!) Now if Ginny turns out to be this great person who meets Harry's needs for a strong-minded woman who keeps him from blaming himself for the world's problems and retreating off into his own little corner for the rest of his life, then yeah, it would be great for him to be with her, and her family would be a *bonus*. Not the main attraction. Felinia: > And I don't think that Harry would allow anything other than a powerful > feeling to make him serious in pursuit of Ginny. me: Agreed. He's a very nice person. Felinia: > One thing you're not mentioning here is Ginny's feelings about *him*. I, > for one, strongly believe that him saving her will increase her feelings for > him over time. And I think Harry would be a sensible young man to allow > someone having strong feelings for him be a factor in his returning them and > coming to love someone who loves him, rather than chasing the unattainable - > like Cho. me: Er...I don't quite know how to phrase this. Yes, Ginny has a crush on Harry. But I don't know if it's a *healthy* kind of crush. She's been crushing on him for *four years.* Apparently, ever since Harry walked onto platform 9 3/4 for the first time. I don't have my book with me, (I'm slacking off at work, waiting for time to go home) but I do remember she started pestering her mom to let her go see him *after Fred-George told them he was THE Harry Potter.* She made no mention of him, said nothing to him, until she found out who he was. Then she talked about him all through the summer between SS and CoS, according to Ron. What the heck did she talk about? From the time she saw him on the platform in SS and the time he showed up at her house in CoS, she hadn't seen or spoken to him. All she knew was whatever her brothers wrote home about. She has kept up this crush all the way through the books so far. I just don't think it's *healthy* to crush on someone *that* long! Four years. It's almost bordering on obsessive. If someone crushed on *me* for four months, hardly knowing me, and without encouragement of any kind, I might think it was cute. If it went on for four *years*, without encouragement - I think I might begin to look over my shoulder everywhere I went. Especially if said person had been influenced by my worst enemy. That is another reason Ginny with Harry bothers me - Tom Riddle's diary. She has been raised smack in the middle of the wizarding world, whose parents have specifically told her "never trust anything if you can't tell where it keeps its brain!" (not an exact quote) and yet she had no idea what she was getting herself into. Yes I know Dumbledore wasn't upset with her. But it still bothers me. If she were "with" Harry, it would be too easy for LV to use her in some way - knowing it had been done before. It just makes me very uneasy. I am *not* saying Ginny would ever do anything bad to Harry on purpose - heavens no - but the potential is there for her to be very easily influenced to do something unknowingly. Me: > >In addition, there has been *no* development of Ginny's character in > >four whole books. Felinia: > As you say, not yet. :-) But there may yet be. This series if pretty > tightly focused on the main trio. Me: > >Obviously that objection would disappear if JKR actually *does* > >something with Ginny besides have her fawn over Harry from afar in > >book > >5. If she waits till after this book, IMO it's too late. > >Just my two knuts. Felinia: > My view? It's never too late. :-) Me: If JKR waits too long to develop Ginny's character and then all of a sudden pairs them off, it's almost like a *deus ex machina* situation. I would be very disappointed if she paired them off with very little development - ie, the current level of Ginny-appearances up until halfway through book 7, then in the epilogue mentioned something about them being together. I don't think she'd do that, but...I'm still suspicious. --Calliope http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/ http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/ From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 22:01:14 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 22:01:14 -0000 Subject: Voldemort addressing Pettigrew as "Wormtail" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54249 Stickbook wrote: > Does anyone know why Voldemort addresses Peter Pettigrew > as "Wormtail"? Now me: I've wondered the same thing, Stickbook. IIRC, Voldemort always refers to Pettigrew as "Wormtail." With the other DEs, Voldemort calls most of them by their last name (Avery, Nott, Crabbe, Goyle, McNair, the Lestranges), with the notable exception of Lucius Malfoy, who is referred to as "Lucius." I can't think of another DE who is referred to by a nickname. The fact that Malfoy is referred to by his first name leads me to speculate that he may have had a higher standing in the DE circle during Voldemort's first reign of terror. I also wonder about the way in which Voldemort addresses Harry in the graveyard. Sometimes it's "Harry Potter," sometimes it's "Potter," and sometimes it's "Harry." I can understand "Harry Potter" and "Potter," but "Harry" seems a bit too familiar given the relatively few occasions on which Voldemort and Harry have had to interact (and given the nature of these interactions!). Stickbook again: > In the DE circle, he calls all the other DE's present by their > names when addressing them. I thought at first, maybe Voldemort did > that to keep his DE's compartmentalized, but that can't be true > after saying all those names in the DE circle. Me again: In Ch. 33 of GoF, it states "Some of the Death Eaters he [Voldemort] passed in silence, but he paused before others, and spoke to them." So not *all* of the DEs are identified. So your "compartmentalized" theory could be right on target. I'm currently listening to Dale's rendition of the graveyard scene on tape, and a question occurred to me for the first time - how is Voldemort able to identify each DE, given that they're all masked and hooded? ~Phyllis From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Mon Mar 24 22:37:12 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 22:37:12 -0000 Subject: The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: <20030324133941.19255.h007.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54250 Hi all, Forgive me if this has been debated yet, but I'd like you to help me. When I started reading Rowling's books, it was in their french translation. "The Boy Who Lived", in the french version, became "Le Survivant" (the Survivor). That's the most logical translation, if we consider that Harry survived Voldemort's AK. However, I'd like to know how do the english-speaking listies understand Harry's nickname. Do they read it only as "The Boy Who Survived "? Or do they think, as I do, that it sounds odd, as if Harry was actually dead? Well, maybe that's only my imagination and lack of english vocabulary. But I know that JKR doesn't chose her words thoughtlessly... And by the way, how did they translate it in other languages? Thanks to whoever answers, Pax vobis Iris From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Mar 24 22:42:17 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 22:42:17 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Why I dislike H/G In-Reply-To: <20030324133941.19255.h007.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54251 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Calliope" wrote: >>> I totally agree that Harry desires (and needs) a family. However, he really already *has* the Weasleys - through Ron. They have practically adopted him already. Look how Mrs. Weasley mothers him, especially at the end of GoF.<<<< You know, this sort of argument works just as well for the other side. You could just as well say that Harry already *has* Hermione. She is already a dear friend. They could hardly care more about each other than they do already. Pippin From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Mon Mar 24 22:45:23 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 22:45:23 -0000 Subject: The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54252 Iris asked: > I'd like to know how do the english-speaking listies > understand Harry's nickname. Do they read it only as "The Boy Who > Survived "? Or do they think, as I do, that it sounds odd, as if > Harry was actually dead? I understand what you mean: lived in the prefect tense. However, it doesn't read that way to me. The difference between 'lived' and 'survived' implies to me that Harry did more than survive: even though he was only a baby he asserted his life by living and thus won a victory over the one with the power of death. It sounds slightly religious to me. David From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 22:59:45 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 22:59:45 -0000 Subject: Fawkes: His Age, His Name and the Timing of Ollivander's Wand Production In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54253 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > Karen (karenoc1) wrote: > > > I think at least two things are possible: Fawkes is not as old > > as we think, and Dumbledore named him himself, or Fawkes was not > > originally owned by Dumbledore, and he is only around 300-390 > > years old. Phoenixes are not immortal; they just have an > > extra-long life- span, of say 500 years or so. > > Now me: (Phyllis) > > In Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them, JKR tells us that > the "phoenix lives to an immense age as it can regenerate, bursting > into flames when its body begins to fail and rising again from the > ashes as a chick" (p. 32). > bboy_mn: The 300 to 500 year lifespan of a Phoenix is the lifespan of a single lifecycle. That same Phoenix might go through dozens of lifecycles. This current lifecycle was started in CoS (I think) making Fawkes about three years old. So he will live for another 497 years before he regenerates again. If we assume that Fawkes was a baby when Godric Gryffindor got him, and we also assume the Gryffindor was his owner, that would put Fawkes on at least his third lifecycle. Although, it's possible that Fawkes had gone through several lifecycles before Gryffindor found him. > > Anne U wrote: > > > ... Ollivander made these two wands at ... the same time, knowing > > that Tom Riddle and Harry Potter ... would ... be chosen by the > > wands? Or ... at the same time knowing that the two wands > > would eventually choose two extremely powerful wizards? Or ... > > different times using tail feathers given at different times?? > > Me again: (Phyllis) > > Given Ollivander's surprise at Harry's compatibility with his wand, > and given the number of wands Harry tried before he connected with > his wand, I don't believe that Ollivander made the wand with Harry > in mind. > > ... when Riddle went bad, Ollivander asked Dumbledore for a second > feather so he could create a second wand for the wizard > who had the same potential for greatness as Voldemort > > ~Phyllis bboy_mn: When the wand chooses the wizard, I don't think that is an intellectual or moral choice. I think is is based on a compatability which I define as a common harmonic magical resonance (I'll skip the details). So Ollivander made two wands from an available source of feathers. Phoenix are native to Asian, so I don't think it is that easy to get them. Ollivander would have certainly taken advantage of an the availability of Fawkes. Also, given that Fawkes has just regenerated, and he regenerated after Harry bought his want, it is safe to assume that both feathers came from the same lifecycle. But I also don't think you can pull a phoenix feather the way you pull a unicorn hair (only my opinion); I think the phoenix has to voluntarily give up a feather. I also think wizard matches to Phoenix feather are far more UNcommon than matches to dragon string or unicorn hair; again just my opinion. Now the tricky question of when Ollivander made the wands. It is possible when he sold his one wand 60 years ago to 11 year old Tom Riddle, then appealed to Dumbledore for another feather since a feather from Hogwarts would be easier and probably cheaper than trying to import one from China. But it is also possible that either on his own or at Dumbledore's request, he decided to make a second wand when he found out what an evil wizard Tom Riddle turned out to be. Ollivander does seem to be one of the few people who have acknowledged the link between Tom Riddle and Voldemort. That's hard to accept though, why would he make a wand on the off chance that decades later a wizard might come along who might match that wand and who also might just happen to be the wizard who fought Voldemort. Seems like they are working pretty thin odds there. If it was truly made specifically to fight Voldemort, then why didn't Dumbledore have it. Any wizard could use the wand, and the 'brother' effect would be the same, so why leave it at Ollivander's waiting for some random wizard to buy it? Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com Mon Mar 24 23:02:28 2003 From: mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com (Edward Post) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 18:02:28 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Boy Who Lived Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54254 Iris stated: >When I started reading Rowling's books, it was in their french >translation. "The Boy Who Lived", in the french version, became "Le >Survivant" (the Survivor). That's the most logical translation, if >we consider that Harry survived Voldemort's AK. And then Iris asked: >However, I'd like to know how do the english-speaking listies >understand Harry's nickname. Do they read it only as "The Boy Who >Survived "? Or do they think, as I do, that it sounds odd, as if >Harry was actually dead? To which I (Mr. Ed) have at least two thoughts: First -- I think the phrase has to be read as if it's a flourish for added effect. While you're correct, 'the survivor' is an accurate and efficient description of Harry's situation, I've thought about the phrase (and the name of the very first chapter, isn't it?) as a shortened version of: The-boy-who-ran-into-Voldemort-and-lived-anyway. In other words, it's a bit of a story -- and I hope the past tense of the phrase is related to surviving his meeting(s) with Voldemort. Second -- I also hope that another way we'll be able to be read the phrase by the end of the series is that "Lived" is a qualitative statement. I hope we'll be able to look back and conclude that Harry didn't merely continue with biological functions; rather, I hope we think he had or is continuing to have a good life, that he "lived life" to the fullest. Mr. Ed _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 23:04:36 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 23:04:36 -0000 Subject: Voldemort addressing Pettigrew as "Wormtail" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54255 Stickbook wrote: > Does anyone know why Voldemort addresses Peter Pettigrew > as "Wormtail"? Now me: I just had a brainwave on this - Voldemort might not want the DEs to know that Pettigrew is Wormtail, since, as Sirius said in the Shrieking Shack in PoA, many of the DEs in Azkaban believe that Pettigrew double-crossed Voldemort by betraying the Potters, since it was by going to the Potters' house that Voldemort met his downfall. So Voldemort may be afraid that the DEs will turn on Pettigrew if they knew it was Pettigrew, so he's decided to call Pettigrew "Wormtail" and let the DEs believe that Pettigrew is still dead. ~Phyllis who's still wondering why Wormtail is the only unmasked DE in the graveyard From t.forch at mail.dk Mon Mar 24 20:53:41 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 21:53:41 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Re: Who is the boy?/ Harry's Funeral In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030324213946.00c32d50@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54256 At 17:50 24-03-03 +0000, Fred Waldrop wrote: >Troels wrote: > > When Hermione is with her one sure suitor, Mr Krum, he still > > has some complaints: "'Hermy-own-ninny talks about you very > > often' said Krum, looking suspiciously at Harry" > > Whatever the eventual outcome, I will maintain that so far > > the weight of the evidence is for a H/H ship >==================================================================== > >Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; > >I can see several reasons why Krum talked to Harry about this and not >Ron. None of those reasons, however, are part of the evidence. >Plus, there were at least two different times that Hermione got mad >when Ron looked at Fleur Those are both part of the evidence. My opinion is that matters that make a teenage girl 'simply furious' aren't worth remembering, because it'll be gone with the next moon (I have been a scout leader or teacher for many girls in their teenage years - and emotional stability or persistence is, in my experience, very rare). I offer no opinion as to who will eventually end up with whom (I really have no preference) - my claim is that the evidence so far is stronger for a long term interest in Harry than it is for Ron. >Just my opinion though. And admittedly, I want a Harry / Ginny ship & >a Ron / Hermione ship, mainly because Ginny can give Harry what he >wants and needs, a big ole family to go home to, the Weasleys Which is of course just as good a reason as any. Different people weigh the evidence differently - I try to distinguish between whom Hermione may be in love with and whom she may love, and I therefore weigh the evidence with that in mind. Troels Forchhammer From BEANNEBOY1 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Mar 24 22:13:18 2003 From: BEANNEBOY1 at HOTMAIL.COM (beanneboy) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 22:13:18 -0000 Subject: Voldemort addressing Pettigrew as "Wormtail" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54257 Phyllis said: > how is Voldemort able to identify each DE, given that they're all masked and > hooded? > > ~Phyllis now me: The D.E. circle was in a particuilar order, as you read when Voldemort paused where there were people missing (e.g. Snape). He new who was supposed to be filling those gaps, which means he knew who he was speaking to (i.e. Malfoy). Well that is at least the way I saw it anyhow. lee From liliana at worldonline.nl Mon Mar 24 22:20:59 2003 From: liliana at worldonline.nl (laylalast) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 22:20:59 -0000 Subject: Another curse scar? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54258 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > > JKR was asked about Harry's scar in a Houston Chronicle article (see: > http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/text.htm): > > Q: "What is the meaning behind Harry's lightning bolt scar?" > > JKR: "There are some things I can tell you about it and some things I > can't. I wanted him to be physically marked by what he has been > through. It was an outward expression of what he has been through > inside. I gave him a scar and in a prominent place so other people > would recognize him. It is almost like being the chosen one, or the > cursed one, in a sense. Someone tried to kill him; that's how he got > it. I chose the lightning bolt because it was the most plausible > shape for a distinctive scar. As you know, the scar has certain > powers, and it gives Harry warnings. I can't say more than that, but > there is more to say." > > Based on this interview excerpt, I don't expect to see anyone else > with a curse scar like Harry's, because JKR is telling us that she > wanted Harry's scar to be "distinctive" and to show that he's > the "chosen" or "cursed" one. > > This interview excerpt does suggest that there's more to Harry's scar > than we've found out about so far, though! Thanks for the interview excerpt, I haven't seen it before (obviously). When reading this, I agree that there will not be anyone with such a scar as Harry, but OTOH, as I see it, it leaves open the possibility that some kind of other scar (different shape, different way as to how someone got it) is in existence. On someone's (long) bottom, perhaps?(*grin*) However, I was not thinking about the Longbottoms in the first place when I considered who might have another scar. As LV tells us in the graveyard scene, he went through or did several experiments to achieve immortality. There is no canon (yet) to imply that he used humans in those experiments, but in ancient dark rituals in the RW such human sacrifices were made to try to achieve that result. To continue theorizing, what if someone's relative was used for such an experiment and this relative continued to live, but hardly as more than a living shell? When I think of this plausibility, the words of JKR spring to my mind that Harry will investigate death in a different way (not the exact quote I know but you get my drift), and I wonder whether this kind is perhaps meant? Not the physical death but the 'death' of the person inside? Layla From Zarleycat at aol.com Mon Mar 24 23:26:47 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 23:26:47 -0000 Subject: Voldemort addressing Pettigrew as "Wormtail" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54259 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stickbook41" wrote: > Does anyone know why Voldemort addresses Peter Pettigrew > as "Wormtail"? This struck me as odd since "Wormtail" was the > nickname his school friends gave him. The first thought I had, and I can produce absolutely no canon evidence, is that it is a not-so-subtle way for Voldemort to constantly remind Peter of his past. What better way to continuously jab Peter with the knowledge of not only how he betrayed his friends, but also how those friends will never be of help to him now, than by using the same name those friends used to call him? I've never gotten the impression that Voldemort likes Peter, but rather finds him a convenient tool. And I also think he's convinced that Peter would never turn on him because he had no where else to go. Which, in turn, could be evidence of short-sighted thinking on V's part. Peter might not work and connive to betray V, but I wouldn't be surprised, should an opportunity eventually come Peter's way to bolt to the "good guys", that he might just take it, especially if he thinks Voldemort's position is becoming precarious. Marianne From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Mon Mar 24 23:14:04 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 23:14:04 +0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry/Ginny: what are the odds? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54260 Me replying to Calliope - starts by Calliope quoting me: >Felinia: > > > One thing you're not mentioning here is Ginny's feelings about *him*. >I, > > for one, strongly believe that him saving her will increase her feelings >for > > him over time. And I think Harry would be a sensible young man to allow > > someone having strong feelings for him be a factor in his returning them >and > > coming to love someone who loves him, rather than chasing the >unattainable - > > like Cho. > >me: > [snip of "is it a healthy crush?"] > >I don't have my book with me, (I'm slacking off at work, waiting for time >to go >home) but I do remember she started pestering her mom to let her go see him >*after Fred-George told them he was THE Harry Potter.* She made no mention >of >him, said nothing to him, until she found out who he was. Then she talked >about >him all through the summer between SS and CoS, according to Ron. What the >heck >did she talk about? From the time she saw him on the platform in SS and >the >time he showed up at her house in CoS, she hadn't seen or spoken to him. >All >she knew was whatever her brothers wrote home about. > >She has kept up this crush all the way through the books so far. I just >don't >think it's *healthy* to crush on someone *that* long! Four years. It's >almost >bordering on obsessive. > Ummmm...again, no disrespect intended, but it's not. :-) I speak from the perspective, again, of sociology and psychology grad work: it's fashionable now to disdain any kind of focus on anything as "obsessive" because society favors dilettantes with short attention spans. :-) (Unless we're talking Olympic athletes.) The difference is largely in choice and control. "Obsession" is another club to beat people with (and I get attempted beaters a lot, whom I fend off and they don't realize they've been fended ;-), because I'm very focused and tight on my interests and don't put a lot of time into things that don't relate to them - as a mature adult, I've learned to budget my time, and there's nothing at all obsessive about that) that has been overextended and misused: true obsession is usually coupled with compulsion (not always), and is *involuntary*. There is *ample* evidence that Ginny is not obsessed: going to the ball with Neville because she promised, a priori. :-) She doesn't hang around Harry's dorm - there's really no evidence that she makes any deliberate attempt to have him fall over her at all. Harry has made an impression on her, with reason, and to lightly paraphrase Jane Austen, she's not seen a more amiable man or one with more pleasing attributes since then. But she did go to the Ball with Neville, and that right there is evidence of a commitment to principles and a lack of any sort of dangerous fixation. >If someone crushed on *me* for four months, hardly knowing me, and without >encouragement of any kind, I might think it was cute. If it went on for >four >*years*, without encouragement - I think I might begin to look over my >shoulder >everywhere I went. > Ummmm...again, I'm more old-fashioned. I have friends who have had crushes/been in love with people for years. They're not stalking them; they are even dating and looking and not pining away. But this one person made such an impression on them that they remain the epitome of what they would like. Remember, too, that Ginny has had "encouragement" in the form of getting to have Harry at her house and to speak to him, and he was her rescuer. There's no evidence that he *has* to look over his shoulder; she's not haunting the common room, and frankly the *Creeveys* were much more tagalongs that Ginny ever has been... I think that they're both just a little too young for that kind of "encouragement" either way. >Especially if said person had been influenced by my worst enemy. > >That is another reason Ginny with Harry bothers me - Tom Riddle's diary. >She >has been raised smack in the middle of the wizarding world, whose parents >have >specifically told her "never trust anything if you can't tell where it >keeps its >brain!" (not an exact quote) and yet she had no idea what she was getting >herself into. Yes I know Dumbledore wasn't upset with her. But it still >bothers me. If she were "with" Harry, it would be too easy for LV to use >her in >some way - knowing it had been done before. It just makes me very uneasy. > Hm - interesting perspective. I'll have to contemplate this. :-) Thanks! >Me: > > >In addition, there has been *no* development of Ginny's character in > > >four whole books. > >Felinia: > > As you say, not yet. :-) But there may yet be. This series if pretty > > tightly focused on the main trio. > >Me: > > >Obviously that objection would disappear if JKR actually *does* > > >something with Ginny besides have her fawn over Harry from afar in > > >book > > >5. If she waits till after this book, IMO it's too late. > > >Just my two knuts. > >Felinia: > > My view? It's never too late. :-) > >Me: > >If JKR waits too long to develop Ginny's character and then all of a sudden >pairs them off, it's almost like a *deus ex machina* situation. I would be >very >disappointed if she paired them off with very little development - ie, the >current level of Ginny-appearances up until halfway through book 7, then in >the >epilogue mentioned something about them being together. I don't think >she'd do >that, but...I'm still suspicious. > I would not put it past JKR at all to use a deus ex machina (and I'm soooo delighted to find someone else who uses this expression in casual writing! ;-)): she's used plenty of other literary devices (caricature, exaggeration...) And that's a tag remark I'll insert here: JKR tends to use a building to exaggeration, often in threes, which is a fairly common literary device (and one I use myself in casual conversation) - sometimes in Dumbledore's remarks, which people then seem to take seriously. For example, this is not a "triple whammy" example - but Dumbledore's scar that is a map of the London Underground...casual throwaway line, and I really don't think it's meant to go anywhere and be anything profound - just humorous that Dumbledore would notice such a thing. :-) Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From siskiou at earthlink.net Mon Mar 24 23:55:09 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 15:55:09 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Re: Who is the boy?/ Harry's Funeral In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030324213946.00c32d50@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030324213946.00c32d50@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <3514108761.20030324155509@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 54261 Hi, Monday, March 24, 2003, 12:53:41 PM, Troels wrote: > Different people weigh the evidence differently - I try to > distinguish between whom Hermione may be in love with and whom > she may love, and I therefore weigh the evidence with that in > mind. Sure, but she's not the only one who decides what will happen, concerning shipping. If she secretly loves Harry, it isn't going to help one bit if Harry doesn't return her feelings, and so far I see no signs that he does (apart from friendship love). This could change down the road, but so could Hermione's feelings (if she does feel more than friendship for Harry, which I have my doubts about). The way they interact when alone together just doesn't make me feel good about a future romantic relationship between those two. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From imhotep1 at rcn.com Mon Mar 24 23:40:58 2003 From: imhotep1 at rcn.com (imhotep1) Date: 24 Mar 2003 15:40:58 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1048549259.13817.10.camel@princess> No: HPFGUIDX 54262 On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 14:37, iris_ft wrote: > "The Boy Who Lived", in the french version, became "Le > Survivant" (the Survivor). That's the most logical translation, if > we consider that Harry survived Voldemort's AK. > However, I'd like to know how do the english-speaking listies > understand Harry's nickname. Do they read it only as "The Boy Who > Survived "? Or do they think, as I do, that it sounds odd, as if > Harry was actually dead? I think the use of the word "lived" is meant to sound bland. "Survivor" is a heroic term. Strong, courageous people "survive," but any person can live. What harry did wasn't really an act of courage (on his part.) His claim to fame is merely that he made it out alive from the most horrible of horrible curses, cast by the most horrible of horrible wizards. Harry wasn't a brave or courageous or strong baby, he was a lucky baby with lot's of people who loved him, and possibly some other qualities inherent to him that have not yet been revealed. I think survivor makes it sound much more epic than to say Harry merely lived. -Jeremy From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Mon Mar 24 23:58:31 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 23:58:31 -0000 Subject: Harry and "I Love You" (was: Who is the boy?/ Harry's Funeral) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54263 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: > Susanne: > > I sure hope that Harry knows there are people who love him, > > even if they don't come out and say the actual words. > > In regards to who will be the first to tell Harry they love him: I wonder if all tthis speculation over who will be the first to tell Harry they love him would not be considered rather unnecessary by JKR. It's clear by their actions how other characters feel toward Harry. He is fortunate to have a goodly number of people who would sacrifice much for him. That seems to be more than enough for him. I would not be surprised if we never hear anyone utter those words, unless Harry enters into a romance at some point and maybe not even then. > JenD-who loves Harry very deeply. From mlacats at aol.com Tue Mar 25 00:47:56 2003 From: mlacats at aol.com (harriet_lupin) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 00:47:56 -0000 Subject: Order Coming Out of Whomping Willow Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54264 Hello Everyone, I know that this has probably come up before but I haven't seen it so bear with me. I'm writing in connection with a part in Prisoner of Azkaban where Harry and company are coming out of the Whomping Willow after the events in the Shrieking Shack. It happens at the top of page 380 the first time -- it concerns the order that the group exit the WW. This is the order that they left the first time: Lupin, Peter and Ron exit first, then "Black saw Snape through the hole...then stood back for Harry and Hermione to pass..." And Sirius exits last. The second time this happen, while Harry and Hermione are using the Time Turner (TT), this is the order that they exit -- (page 408) Lupin, Ron and Petigrew first -- "then came Hermione...then the unconscious Snape, drifting weirdly upward. Next came Harry and Black." Now, the first time its, Lupin, Peter, Ron, SNAPE, Harry and/or Hermione, and last Sirius. Second time (TT) its -- Lupin, Peter,Ron, HERMIONE (2nd), SNAPE (3rd.), Harry and Sirius. See the discrepancy? My question is this: Is this an error on JKRs part - ala Book 4 with the reversal of 'ghosts' comping out of Voldy's wand when his and Harry's wands conncected at the graveyard? Or is there some kind of plan on the part of JKR or clue that I'm not picking up? I think its the former but I'm open to opinion..thoughts..that anyone might have. Thanks, Harriet From debmclain at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 01:41:00 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 01:41:00 -0000 Subject: Voldemort addressing Pettigrew as "Wormtail" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54265 "stickbook41" > wrote: > > Does anyone know why Voldemort addresses Peter Pettigrew > > as "Wormtail"? This struck me as odd since "Wormtail" was the > > nickname his school friends gave him. Marianne/"kiricat2001" wrote: > The first thought I had, and I can produce absolutely no canon > evidence, is that it is a not-so-subtle way for Voldemort to > constantly remind Peter of his past. What better way to continuously > jab Peter with the knowledge of not only how he betrayed his friends, > but also how those friends will never be of help to him now, than by > using the same name those friends used to call him? > > I've never gotten the impression that Voldemort likes Peter, but > rather finds him a convenient tool. And I also think he's convinced > that Peter would never turn on him because he had no where else to > go. Which, in turn, could be evidence of short-sighted thinking on > V's part. Peter might not work and connive to betray V, but I > wouldn't be surprised, should an opportunity eventually come Peter's > way to bolt to the "good guys", that he might just take it, > especially if he thinks Voldemort's position is becoming precarious. Me: Peter will turn against Voldy and help Harry because of the life- debt. I couldn't figure out the Wormtail name either, until I realized it does seem like a jab at Peter. However, I do like the reasoning in Phyllis' post below. -Debbie Phyllis/"erisedstraeh2002" wrote: >So Voldemort may be afraid that the DEs will turn on Pettigrew if they knew it was Pettigrew, so he's decided to call Pettigrew "Wormtail" and let the DEs believe that Pettigrew is still dead. From debmclain at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 01:52:40 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 01:52:40 -0000 Subject: The Longbottoms (was: Re: OoP Book covers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54266 "annemehr" wrote: > Yeah. The Longbottoms could be very important in the fight against > Voldemort, and here's idiot Fudge keeping them locked away for the > sake of some money and a battle of wills with Lucius Malfoy! And > Harry goes to get them out -- I hope he does it *with* Neville, > though. I've been hoping for more of Neville through three books > now... Me: I, too, have thought for a long time that the Longbottom's were being controlled by a special spell, paid for by Lucius Malfoy (sigh...). I like your new, additional theory that Fudge is blackmailing Lucius. That would go with my Evil!Fudge theory. -Debbie Who is secretly hoping Lucius Malfoy will turn into a good guy and help out Harry at the last minute, but knows JK won't allow it :-( From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 02:07:35 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 18:07:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort addressing Pettigrew as "Wormtail" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030325020735.77597.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54267 Debbie wrote: Phyllis/"erisedstraeh2002" wrote: >So Voldemort may be afraid that the DEs will turn on Pettigrew if they knew it was Pettigrew, so he's decided to call Pettigrew "Wormtail" and let the DEs believe that Pettigrew is still dead. Me: I can't accept that argument. The DE's will abide by whatever Voldemart decides concerning the fate of this follower. And he is also in a position to simply tell them know Peter did NOT betray him. So protecting Pettigrew from Voldemart's followers has now become a moot point really. And besides, while he's 14 years older, he still basically looks the same and the wizzarding community isn't so large that some of the DE's MUST know what he looks like. They would recognize him anyways. Please note too that Snape who was NOT in their circle and didn't know they were animages (only that one of them was a warewolf) obviously recognized the nicknames on the Mauraders Map. That's why he specifically asked if perhaps Harry got it straight from the manufacturers. It is possible that the nicknames were indeed well known even if the reasons for them weren't. So in all probability to was known anyways amongst the DE's that Peter Pettigrew and Wormtail were one and the same. So it's not surprising that Voldmort knew of his nickname. Heck, it's even possible that once upon a time Peter Pettigrew simply told him. But I think his use of it is basically a reflection of his total comtempt for Peter Pettigrew. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 02:13:56 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 02:13:56 -0000 Subject: Voldemort addressing Pettigrew as "Wormtail" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54268 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > Stickbook wrote: > > > Does anyone know why Voldemort addresses Peter Pettigrew > > as "Wormtail"? > > Now me: > > .... many of the DEs ... believe that Pettigrew double-crossed > Voldemort by betraying the Potters, since ... going to the > Potters' house that Voldemort met his downfall. > > So Voldemort may be afraid that the DEs will turn on Pettigrew if > they knew it was Pettigrew, ... > > ~Phyllis bboy_mn: Interesting thought. Some how I think the Death Eaters know who Pettigrew is. He was a close friend of Potter's and James Potter was well know, so I would assume Peter was well known. As far as Voldemort being afraid of the Death Eaters revenge on Peter, I don't think the Death Eaters do anything without Voldemort's permission. I seriously doubt that Voldemort is concerned. However, you reminded me of something else. When Voldemort is in the graveyard and he is listing the missing Death Eaters, he comes to the last one which is Barty Crouch Jr., and says that he has returned to Voldemort's service. This gets a reaction out of the Death Eaters; they 'stir' and give each other uneasy sideways glances. I always assumed it was because they were puzzled about how a known dead man could have returned to Voldemort's service. So the assumed dead Crouch Jr gets a reaction, but no one seems to react to the fact that Peter Pettigrew, a person long known to be dead, is there. That could lend some weight to your theory. I personally don't accept the theory, but one has to wonder why no one said anything about presents of the dead man who is believed to have betrayed Voldemort. Odd, but strange. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 02:23:01 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 02:23:01 -0000 Subject: The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: <1048549259.13817.10.camel@princess> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54269 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, imhotep1 wrote: > On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 14:37, iris_ft wrote: > > "The Boy Who Lived", in the french version, became "Le > > Survivant" (the Survivor). ...edited... > > I think the use of the word "lived" is meant to sound bland. > "Survivor" is a heroic term. Strong, courageous people "survive," > but any person can live. ...edited... > > -Jeremy bboy_mn: I take almost the opposite approach. You can survive a plane crash, you can survive a serious illness, but not many people survive death. That's what Harry did; he did the impossible, he survived the unsurvivable, the unblockable, the unstoppable Death Curse. Harry isn't the boy who lived, he is 'The Boy Who Lived'. Yes, he survived, but his survival goes way beyond beating the odds, to doing the impossible. In that context, I think I think the word 'Lived' is intended to contrast absolute death, and not just a statistical likelihood of surbviving something tramatic. Just a thought. bboy_mn From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Mar 25 03:03:10 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 22:03:10 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Re: Who is the boy?/ Harry's Funeral Message-ID: <1cc.5be2b0c.2bb120ee@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54270 In a message dated 3/24/2003 5:59:30 PM Central Standard Time, siskiou at earthlink.net writes: > The way they interact when alone together just doesn't make > me feel good about a future romantic relationship between > those two. > > -- > Best regards, > Susanne But in the same vein we don't know how Ron and Hermione act when when they are alone. Granted that its from Harry POV but the narrator has stepped in on occassion to tell us things that Harry couldn't know. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From larryngocnguyen at hotmail.com Tue Mar 25 03:19:49 2003 From: larryngocnguyen at hotmail.com (larryngocnguyen83) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 03:19:49 -0000 Subject: Why is PROFESSOR Binns a ghost? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54273 J.K. Rowling has said in a number of interviews that the coming books will reveal a lot about why some people become ghosts and some don't. I was thinking: why then would Professor Binns become a ghost? Perhaps, there's more to that story then we know... Just some thoughts. Tell me what you think From grosich at nyc.rr.com Tue Mar 25 03:20:09 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina R Rosich) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 22:20:09 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why is Mr. Binns a ghost? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54274 On 3/24/03 10:18 PM, "larryngocnguyen83" had this to say: > J.K. Rowling has said in a number of interviews that the coming books > will reveal a lot about why some people become ghosts and some don't. > I was thinking: why then would Mr. Binns become a ghost? Perhaps, > there's more to that story then we know... > Just some thoughts. Tell me what you think > > > Oh, I definitely think this one is a red herring. That Rowling was just being cute. Although, perhaps Binns? unhappiness/unfinished business comes from not having a single student be inspired by his lectures! --- Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grosich at nyc.rr.com Tue Mar 25 03:34:01 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina R Rosich) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 22:34:01 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Can the Marauder's Map be deceived? In-Reply-To: <000001c2f188$8c255ba0$a1a7a7cb@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54275 I have a question about the map myself. Can it see double? In PoA, Snape runs to the Shrieking Shack because he sees who is there when he glances upon it in Lupin?s office. But, then the kids go back in time. So, wouldn?t Snape then see TWO Hermiones and Harrys on the map? Then he would have an anser to Dumbledore telling him the kids couldn?t be in 2 places at once. Or does it only register the ?original? person and not the time-turned one? Or did he simply not see the doubles hiding out in waiting? --- Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From slaross at total.net Tue Mar 25 01:59:24 2003 From: slaross at total.net (tiggereh1987) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 01:59:24 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Department of Mysteries??? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54276 Greetings all, I've been lurking for a time now, with many thoughts and ideas. Here's one that I haven't seen. We all seem to think that Dumbledore is an animagus, but he doesn't show up on the registry, per Hermione. However, if there is a registry within the MoM, Department of Mysteries division, no one would be able to find him there. Perhaps Dumbledore is a part of the Department of Mysteries, owing to his work when he fought against Grindelwald. Another thought perhaps Dumbledore, being as powerful as he is, is able to be more than one type of animagi, depending on the circumstances. A bumblebee when he wants to be inconspicuous, something else when the need is there. That would also explain him not being on the register. Just my two knuts. Leigh (who is eagerly anticipating the June 21st release of OotP, but is also expecting her 2nd child on the 24th and hopes that they won't interfere with one another!) "Mad? He's a genius! Best wizard in the world! But he is a bit mad, yes." Persey Weasley From pennylin at swbell.net Tue Mar 25 03:48:17 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (pennylin) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 21:48:17 -0600 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? and Why I hate the H/G Ship References: Message-ID: <00db01c2f281$5f399f30$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 54277 Hi -- Fred posted: <<<<1)My point was, Hermione was talking about her bestfriends. IMO, she probably talked about BOTH her friends, Harry and RON. And seeing as Krum was able to talk to Harry alone, he asked him first. I was not trying to say that she only talked about Harry, Just that Krum did not have time to ask about Ron.>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, we have no evidence that Hermione talked about Ron to Krum. In fact, the evidence pretty much points the other way. Krum was jealous for *some reason.* If Hermione were talking equally about both Harry and Ron (or least talking about Ron *some*), then it seems pretty unlikely that Krum would even become romantically jealous. He would, in all likelihood, have realized that she was simply talking about her best friends. Certainly, it's unlikely that his jealousy would have gone so far as to cause him to confront Harry about it under that scenario. As for your counter-argument that Krum ran out of time and might have asked Harry about Ron next, I don't know why you think he ran out of time. They talk at least briefly about flying, before they are interrupted. If Krum was next going to shift suspicions to Ron, why would he have "looked happier" at the revelation that Harry and Hermione are not involved? Why wouldn't he have "remained suspicious" and immediately asked about Ron? IMHO, that's because Hermione *didn't* talk about Ron to Krum. Krum is happier, because a cloud has been lifted. He suspected something between Harry and Hermione. We've no reason to believe there is any remaining cause for jealousy. Shifting to the Ginny discussions, Felinia said: <<<<<<>>>>>>>> While I agree that she doesn't strike me as particularly obsessed with Harry, I have always been bothered by the fact that she paid him no attention whatsoever on Platform 9 3/4 *until* she heard he was the Boy Who Lived. Yes, I know she's had chances since then to realize that he's more than just a celebrity. But, it seems an inauspicious start to a relationship to me. And, I'm not so certain that she *has* separated the two (the celebrity and the real boy that is). They simply haven't interacted to any great extent, other than in the Chamber. In the Chamber when the "celebrity" has saved her life. Calliope had said: <<<<>>>>>> I couldn't agree more. The problem, of course, is that we have no idea if Harry and Ginny have similar personalities, understand and communicate with each other or have any interests in common. Ginny is an undeveloped skeleton at this point. Which brings me to: Calliope again: <<<>>>>>>>>>> I too would be disappointed in use of a deus ex machina in this case. I personally think that if she waits until Book 6 or 7 to develop Ginny (or God forbid, the epilogue), it will be a problem for some readers. We will have spent 7 books with Harry, getting to know him quite intimately. For many readers, if he were to pair up romantically with Hermione, herself a character many of us have come to know well and love as much as Harry, it would be very satisfying. If instead, Harry were to pair off with someone we barely know or have just gotten to know, it *likely* would not be as satisfying to those readers. I would feel cheated. I would wonder why she was held back as a character. If her destiny to be Mrs. Potter has been evident since the first book (as many H/G shippers proclaim), then there's nothing for the author to gain by holding her in reserve. It only serves to frustrate those readers like me, who would prefer to know this character who's going to pair up with our beloved Harry. Calliope had made the point that Harry already *has* the Weasley family, through Ron. In response to this, Pippin remarked: <<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, speaking for myself, I would certainly say that romantic/sexual love is quite a different level than friendship love. So, I would say that actually, yes, they certainly could care more about each other than they do already. Eros would bring an entirely different intimacy to the relationship. Felinia said: <<<<>>>>>>>>>> Speaking from personal experience, I've had my share of unrequited crushes on male friends. I've also been the recipient of such crushes. In both cases, it was for the best that the other party didn't return feelings. And, no matter how much those friends or I thought of the other person as a dear friend, you can't force romance. Harry will be a sensible young man, as you say, if he follows his heart. Wherever his heart may lead him. :--) Penny (ever the H/H'er................) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 03:51:17 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 03:51:17 -0000 Subject: Voldemort addressing Pettigrew as "Wormtail" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54278 Stickbook wrote: >>Does anyone know why Voldemort addresses Peter Pettigrew >>as "Wormtail"? Phyllis wrote: >I just had a brainwave on this - Voldemort might not want the DEs to >know that Pettigrew is Wormtail, since, as Sirius said in the >Shrieking Shack in PoA, many of the DEs in Azkaban believe that >Pettigrew double-crossed Voldemort by betraying the Potters, since >it was by going to the Potters' house that Voldemort met his >downfall. >So Voldemort may be afraid that the DEs will turn on Pettigrew if >they knew it was Pettigrew, so he's decided to call >Pettigrew "Wormtail" and let the DEs believe that Pettigrew is >still dead. > ~Phyllis > who's still wondering why Wormtail is the only unmasked DE in the > graveyard Question: If Voldemort is afraid that the DE's will turn on Pettigrew, why isn't Wormtail covered up? Someone may recognize him, say Lucius, who went to school at the same time as he did and overheard one of the "marauders" calling him Wormtail. Greicy From ZaraLyon at aol.com Tue Mar 25 04:00:59 2003 From: ZaraLyon at aol.com (aurigae_prime) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 04:00:59 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Defending H/Hr versus H/G (was Re: SHIP: Why I dislike H/G) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54279 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Calliope" > wrote: > > >>> I totally agree that Harry desires (and needs) a family. > However, he really already *has* the Weasleys - through Ron. > They have practically adopted him already. Look how Mrs. > Weasley mothers him, especially at the end of GoF.<<<< > > You know, this sort of argument works just as well for the other > side. You could just as well say that Harry already *has* > Hermione. She is already a dear friend. They could hardly care > more about each other than they do already. > > Pippin Ah, but Pippin! I don't believe I've ever heard it said that Harry should be with Hermione because he needs a good friend. Whereas it IS often put forth that a marriage to Ginny can make Harry part of a "real" family. However, Harry is already a Weasley in everything but name (well, and hair colour too I suppose!). I believe the real argument here is in the level of development between characters. The only thing that we currently KNOW that a match with Ginny will bring to Harry is a permanent tie to the Weasleys. However, Hermione is a more developed character, and so we know that she has something more to offer Harry than simply being his friend. Whether she can offer him the stability that he needs remains to be seen. However, I think she would be much better suited to meeting Harry's needs than Ginny would *at this point in canon.* I don't mind being proven wrong on this point, and in fact I'd like to see Ginny be developed further. So, yet another thought which I must end with another longing sigh for June 21st! Rhiannon From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 04:09:38 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 20:09:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] New poll for HPforGrownups In-Reply-To: <1048528555.139.96105.w16@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030325040938.5036.qmail@web20004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54280 I'd love to have it open; the Sugar Quill is going to be closed and I need an outlet for after I read the book. My sister'll have it then. Just so long as there are no spoilers in the subject lines and there are warnings for the first put-your-preferred-time-limit-in I don't think it should be a problem. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 04:27:57 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 04:27:57 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? and Why I hate the H/G Ship In-Reply-To: <00db01c2f281$5f399f30$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54281 > Fred posted: > >1)My point was, Hermione was talking about her bestfriends. IMO, she >probably talked about BOTH her friends, Harry and RON. And seeing as >Krum was able to talk to Harry alone, he asked him first. I was not >trying to say that she only talked about Harry, Just that Krum did >not have time to ask about Ron.>>>>>>>>>>> Penny wrote: >Actually, we have no evidence that Hermione talked about Ron to >Krum. In fact, the evidence pretty much points the other way. Krum >was jealous for *some reason.* If Hermione were talking equally >about both Harry and Ron (or least talking about Ron *some*), then >it seems pretty unlikely that Krum would even become romantically >jealous. He would, in all likelihood, have realized that she was >simply talking about her best friends. Certainly, it's unlikely >that his jealousy would have gone so far as to cause him to confront >Harry about it under that scenario. >As for your counter-argument that Krum ran out of time and might >have asked Harry about Ron next, I don't know why you think he ran >out of time. They talk at least briefly about flying, before they >are interrupted. If Krum was next going to shift suspicions to Ron, >why would he have "looked happier" at the revelation that Harry and >Hermione are not involved? Why wouldn't he have "remained >suspicious" and immediately asked about Ron? IMHO, that's because >Hermione *didn't* talk about Ron to Krum. Krum is happier, because >a cloud has been lifted. He suspected something between Harry and >Hermione. We've no reason to believe there is any remaining cause >for jealousy. THANK YOU Penny! For explaining in way I couldn't. This is exactly that I mean. And I like to re-iterate (because I do it so well). If Krum had in fact confronted Harry, I'm pretty sure Ron would have told Harry. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Shifting to the Ginny discussions, Felinia said: >Harry has made an impression on her, with reason, and to lightly paraphrase Jane Austen, she's not seen a more amiable man or one with more pleasing attributes since then. But she did go to the Ball with Neville, and that right there is evidence of a commitment to principles and a lack of any sort of dangerous fixation.>>>>>>>>> Penny wrote: > While I agree that she doesn't strike me as particularly obsessed >with Harry, I have always been bothered by the fact that she paid >him no attention whatsoever on Platform 9 3/4 *until* she heard he >was the Boy Who Lived. Yes, I know she's had chances since then to >realize that he's more than just a celebrity. But, it seems an >inauspicious start to a relationship to me. And, I'm not so certain >that she *has* separated the two (the celebrity and the real boy >that is). They simply haven't interacted to any great extent, other >than in the Chamber. In the Chamber when the "celebrity" has saved >her life. I wouldn't call it obsession, either. I can agree that at least in PS/SS Ginny had a crush on Harry solely because he is the boy who lived. In CoS, it is evident she still has a crush on him and then he saves her (I was about to say that it is even better for her that he saved her, sort of like damsel-in-distress and her hero rescues her, but that wasn't the case at all). In PoA, we see that Harry only has minimal interaction with Ginny and I didn't get the impression that she even had a crush on him. If she still does, I think by this time she knows Harry personally, not just his "star" status, and gets to like the real him, but then again the interaction is minimal. We get to actually know Ginny in GoF and she is not vulnerable as she was in CoS and it is evident when she tells Harry and Ron that she can't go with Harry to the Yule Ball because she is going with Ron. (I personally can't think of her going scarlet when she told them she was going with Neville. Was that a Weasley blush or embarrassment? And why did she look extremely miserable afterwards?) IMO, I think she *should* have grown out of the celebrity crush to RW crush, by now. >Calliope again: <<<character and then all of a sudden pairs them off, it's almost like >a *deus ex machina* situation. I would be very disappointed if she >paired them off with very little development - ie, the current level >of Ginny-appearances up until halfway through book 7, then in the >epilogue mentioned something about them being together. I don't >think she'd do that, but...I'm still suspicious.>>>>>>>>>>> Penny wrote: > I too would be disappointed in use of a deus ex machina in this >case. I personally think that if she waits until Book 6 or 7 to >develop Ginny (or God forbid, the epilogue), it will be a problem >for some readers. We will have spent 7 books with Harry, getting to >know him quite intimately. For many readers, if he were to pair up >romantically with Hermione, herself a character many of us have come >to know well and love as much as Harry, it would be very >satisfying. If instead, Harry were to pair off with someone we >barely know or have just gotten to know, it *likely* would not be as >satisfying to those readers. I would feel cheated. I would wonder >why she was held back as a character. If her destiny to be Mrs. >Potter has been evident since the first book (as many H/G shippers >proclaim), then there's nothing for the author to gain by holding >her in reserve. It only serves to frustrate those readers like me, >who would prefer to know this character who's going to pair up with >our beloved Harry. I have always found it irritating to introduce a character out of the blue to be someone's love interest (as they do in spanish soap operas), but in reality, these books are so big, she can definitely develop Ginny's character subtlety as she has done with Neville. I personally, cannot STAND the idea of Ginny and Harry being together, for reasons I cannot find. I'd rather she develop Cho's character. Parvati or Lavendar! Heck bring in Pansy or Millicent, but NOT GINNY! I cannot comprehend a Ginny/Harry relationship. I am an *avid* H/H, but I can deal with Hr/R and H/?, but not H/R and H/G. Nope, just can't do it. I understand everyone's reasoning behind it, just as I can understand everyone's reasoning behind Hr/R (albeit they have more evidence of a relationship that even I can't deny), but I still can't see it possible. Yet if that's the way JKR wants it, then that's the way she'll write it and I'm sure through her writing she'll give me reasons to love H/G just as much as I don't like it now. Greicy, who refuses to give up on H/H, thank God for FF =) From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 04:38:52 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 04:38:52 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ernie and Hannah (was Re: SHIP: Why I dislike H/G) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54282 Fred wrote: >None of the people in that year has a *ship* going on, that I know >of anyway. It seems that R/H are close to it, but not yet, as of GoF. So what do you think of Ernie and Hannah? I think there's something going on. At least, they'd be the only ones who are totally sure of their feelings for each other while everyone else is running around being confused or/and hormonal. Even though we've only heard of them, say 4 times, throughout the books, they seem like a nice shipping couple. ;) Greicy From patricia at obscure.org Tue Mar 25 04:56:56 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 23:56:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort addressing Pettigrew as "Wormtail" In-Reply-To: <20030325020735.77597.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54283 On Mon, 24 Mar 2003, Becky Walkden wrote: > Please note too that Snape who was NOT in their > circle and didn't know they were animages (only that one of them was a > warewolf) obviously recognized the nicknames on the Mauraders Map. > That's why he specifically asked if perhaps Harry got it straight from > the manufacturers. It is possible that the nicknames were indeed well > known even if the reasons for them weren't. So in all probability to was > known anyways amongst the DE's that Peter Pettigrew and Wormtail were > one and the same. I agree. Since some of the current and former Death Eaters (Rosier, the Lestranges, etc.) were friends of Snape's at Hogwarts, it seems likely that they would know about the MWPP nicknames as well. Even if the nicknames were not widely known at school, it seems highly unlikely that Snape would have failed to pass on that information to his friends, given how much he hated those four during their school years. He had no reason at that point to keep secrets for them, and in turn Rosier et al had no reason not to pass the information to other DEs. So I think it's safe to assume that at least some of the current group of DEs know that "Wormtail" is Peter Pettigrew. > But I think his use of it is basically a reflection of his total > comtempt for Peter Pettigrew. Huggs Becky This is my impression as well. "Wormtail" is a rather insulting nickname. To constantly refer to Peter as "Wormtail," and to refuse to use Peter's real name, is a way of demeaning him and keeping him in his place. Voldemort clearly does not think highly of Peter. He merely finds Peter useful and easy to control, and he is more than happy to remind Peter of that at every opportunity. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From patricia at obscure.org Tue Mar 25 05:01:09 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 00:01:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort addressing Pettigrew as "Wormtail" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54284 On Tue, 25 Mar 2003, grace701 wrote: > Question: If Voldemort is afraid that the DE's will turn on > Pettigrew, why isn't Wormtail covered up? Someone may recognize him, > say Lucius, who went to school at the same time as he did and > overheard one of the "marauders" calling him Wormtail. Is there actually any canon evidence that Lucius was at Hogwarts at the same time as MWPP, Snape, etc? I don't recall a "Malfoy" on the list of people Snape hung out with during his school days, and I can't recall any other mention of Lucius's school days either, but my memory could be failing me. Am I missing something? ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From devika at sas.upenn.edu Tue Mar 25 05:09:26 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 05:09:26 -0000 Subject: Voldemort addressing Pettigrew as "Wormtail" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54285 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: > On Tue, 25 Mar 2003, grace701 wrote: > > > Question: If Voldemort is afraid that the DE's will turn on > > Pettigrew, why isn't Wormtail covered up? Someone may recognize him, > > say Lucius, who went to school at the same time as he did and > > overheard one of the "marauders" calling him Wormtail. > > Is there actually any canon evidence that Lucius was at Hogwarts at the > same time as MWPP, Snape, etc? I don't recall a "Malfoy" on the list of > people Snape hung out with during his school days, and I can't recall any > other mention of Lucius's school days either, but my memory could be > failing me. Am I missing something? You're not missing anything. There is no canon evidence that Lucius Malfoy was in school at the same time as MWPP. It is implied that Snape knows Malfoy, but that's probably for other reasons. I would think that if Malfoy was at Hogwarts with MWPP, someone would have mentioned that before. It's possible, IMO, that he might have been at Hogwarts at the same time as Arthur Weasley, and their mutual animosity may have originated then. However, they could dislike each other for purely different reasons, and Malfoy may have attended Hogwarts at a different time. We really don't know. Devika From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Mar 25 05:27:29 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 00:27:29 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Re: Who is the boy?/ Harry's Funeral Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54286 In a message dated 3/24/2003 12:46:33 PM Central Standard Time, grace701 at yahoo.com writes: > Greicy, being sneaky, wrote > If Krum is suspicious, it must be for a reason. Why does Hermione > speak a lot about Harry and not of Ron? At the end, when Ron > asks for Krum's autograph, I got the impression that Ron never > bothered to talk to him. Which brings it all back to: Why does > Hermione speak a lot about Harry? So much to make him be suspicious I suspect that Hermione rambled onto Victor about Harry because she considered Victor to be "safe." He wasn't a Hogwarts student. He kept pretty much to himself f and would be once the Tournament was over. There was/is no one at Hogwart's she could just ramble on with about Harry. She'd never chatter about Harry to Ron. . .waaaaay to awkward. Lavendar or Parvati? Nyet. Ginny? Nope. So "safe" Victor was her choice of unwitting confident. Too bad that Victor was more interested in her than she appeared to be in him. (I think that she'd be absolutely mortified to know that Victor discussed her with Harry) Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 05:32:56 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 05:32:56 -0000 Subject: Can the Marauder's Map be deceived? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54287 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Gina R Rosich wrote: > I have a question about the map myself. Can it see double? > > In PoA, Snape runs to the Shrieking Shack because he sees who is there when > he glances upon it in Lupin?s office. But, then the kids go back in time. > So, wouldn?t Snape then see TWO Hermiones and Harrys on the map? Then he > would have an anser to Dumbledore telling him the kids couldn?t be in 2 > places at once. Or does it only register the ?original? person and not the > time-turned one? Or did he simply not see the doubles hiding out in > waiting? > > --- > Gina > Actually, I don't think *anyone* ever saw the timeturned Harry and Hermione on the Marauder's map. Here's my reasoning: I don't believe that the map shows anything in the forbidden forest, just as it apparently shows nothing of the inside of Hagrid's hut (as inferred by Lupin's words that he watched the trio enter the hut, and then later saw them leave, but now they were accompanied by Pettigrew). So, Harry, Ron, and Hermione left the castle under the invisibility cloak to see Hagrid before Buckbeak's execution, and Lupin saw them on the map. Meanwhile, the Timeturned Harry and Hermione discuss what Dumbledore wants them to do and then make a run for the forest, as quickly as they can, but around behind the greenhouses because they are afraid to be seen by someone looking out a window (PoA, Ch 21). The Timeturned H&H leave the castle after the trio do, but arrive in the forest just before the trio knock at Hagrid's door. Lupin doesn't notice the timeturned pair partly because he is keeping a close eye on the trio already, and partly because the pair are going around another way. Okay. TT!H&H (that's timeturned Harry & Hermione) wait in the forest, off the map. The trio leave Hagrid's with Scabbers, and Lupin is watching them intently. As the Trio make their way along under the invisibility cloak, TT!H&H wait for the right time, Harry emerges from the forest, Harry drags Buckbeak into the cover of the trees, and they move to another spot in the forest where they can see the Whomping Willow. *Then* they see Ron emerge from the invisibility cloak to chase the fleeing Scabbers. So, the only time TT!Harry leaves the forest (to get Buckbeak), Lupin is intently watching the Trio in astonishment since he now sees Pettigrew with them. He does not notice an extra Harry pop out of the forest for Buckbeak. TT!H&H remain in their place in the forest while they watch Lupin run into the willow, while Snape goes to Lupin's office and sees *him* running into the willow, and while Snape himself runs into the willow. Snape never had any opportunity to see TT!H&H at all, as long as the forest is off the map. Is there any canon to say that the forest is off the map? Not really. I did look up the "Veritaserum" chapter of GoF to see how Crouch Jr. described seeing his father arrive at Hogwarts on the map. Here it is, for what it's worth: "For a week I waited for my father to arrive at Hogwarts. At last, one evening, the map showed my father entering the grounds. I pulled on my Invisibility cloak and went down to meet him. He was walking around the edge of the forest. ..." So, it sounds as though Crouch Sr. never went through the forest, but around it, which is inconclusive as far as seeing into the forest with the map is concerned. And even if TT!H&H were on the map the whole time, it is completely plausible that neither Lupin nor Snape noticed them because they were looking very intently at something else at the time. But yes, I do believe the map can see double. As long as there were two Harrys and two Hermiones somewhere that the map showed, then they would all be on the map -- just as it shows transformed animagi and people under invisibility cloaks. Finally, does anyone know whether the Forbidden Forest is part of the Hogwarts grounds or just outside of them? I would check Dumbledore's words at the welcoming feast in PS/SS, but I can't lay my hands on that book at the moment! Annemehr From katydid3500 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 05:39:55 2003 From: katydid3500 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 21:39:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] New poll for HPforGrownups In-Reply-To: <20030325040938.5036.qmail@web20004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030325053955.61985.qmail@web40507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54288 Rebecca Stephens wrote: I'd love to have it open; the Sugar Quill is going to be closed and I need an outlet for after I read the book. My sister'll have it then. Just so long as there are no spoilers in the subject lines and there are warnings for the first put-your-preferred-time-limit-in I don't think it should be a problem. Rebecca Honestly, I'd really rather have it closed...I went without checking my email for about 20 hours and I had 123 new messages...all of which were from this group and the movie group. I know if my messages built up for days with everyone writing about the book, I and probably many others just wouldn't read them. If I waited 3 days...with all the buzz going on...I might sign in to 500 new messages...and there is no way I'd read them. Please close the group and give us some time to finish the book. I think it would be kinda silly to fill up everyone's mail boxes with questions/speculations that will be answered/explained by the end of the book. ~Kathryn ...Funny, last night I had a dream that I woke up and my computer said I had one billion new messages...now I know where that idea came from...:) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Tue Mar 25 08:04:23 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 02:04:23 -0600 Subject: Filk - Jekyll and Hyde task 2 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54289 OK, I decided to go on with my theme from 2 filks ago, so to follow my task one filk, here is: The Second Task To the tune of "It's a Dangerous Game" from the broadway musical Jekyll and Hyde music by Frank Wildhorn. Scene: Harry enters the water for the second task. As he swallows the gillyweed, sharp pains pierce his neck. He ducks under the water, swims, and starts to sing: Harry: I feel the water cold on my shoulders, The painful gills as they run up my neck, Looking for Ron, and maybe Hermione too, Hope by the end I'm not a total wreck! Now I've got to be quick, Gotta use every trick, Just to rescue my pal named Ron 'Cause he's down in the lake. (This is too much to take!) I'm a wizard; I'm not a swan! Hope I've got some good aim With my wand, all the same, For my senses proclaim It's a dangerous game. A grindylow has me by the ankles, The giant squid seems a bit peckish, too. It's just so dark, I can't find my way down here; The "Famous Potter" doesn't know what to do! If I'm not there in time Will they commit the crime? Either way, I've just got to win. All I know is I'm lost, and I'm getting wave-tossed. My emotions are in a spin. I know Myrtle will claim That survival's a shame But I have to proclaim It's a dangerous game. I can't speak, not one bit, Bubbles fly with every word. Mermen speak, they can't help. The worst news that I've ever heard! Now I'm cutting the cord (Wish I'd kept that old sword...) Just to rescue my Weasley friend. Now that Krum is here, too I know what I can do. Rescue Gabby; she's near the end. As I climb like a plane, I just hate all this fame Everyone knows my name Stinkin' Rita's to blame! But I've got to proclaim It's a dangerous game. Quite a dangerous game. What a dangerous game! Hobbit-guy, who wishes his school was currently doing Fiddler on the Roof instead... "You haven't been getting into the Gaffer's home brew again, have you?" "No... Well, yes, but that's beside the point." -Frodo and Bilbo Baggins, Fellowship of the Rings Extended Edition DVD From abigailnus at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 08:08:45 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 08:08:45 -0000 Subject: Voldemort addressing Pettigrew as "Wormtail" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54290 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stickbook41" wrote: > Does anyone know why Voldemort addresses Peter Pettigrew > as "Wormtail"? This struck me as odd since "Wormtail" was the > nickname his school friends gave him. I remember that this question was raised a while back, and someone, I'm not sure who, suggested a possibility I really liked. They posited that Wormtail was Peter's code name while he was Voldemort's spy - we know he did this for a year before the Potters' deaths and Voldemort's fall. This was a valuable commodity for Voldy - a spy directly placed in Dumbledore's inner circle - so he wouldn't have been eager to share information about him. The nickname simply stuck. The fact that Peter is constantly referred to as Wormtail was used to explain quite a few things. For example, it was suggested that Snape was aware of a spy around the Potters named Wormtail, but that he was unable to discover the spy's true name, and later assumed that Wormtail was Sirius. This would also explain his reaction to seeing the names on the Maurauder's Map, and it would go a long way towards explaining why, in 12 years, no one thought it was odd that the DEs in Azkaban were cursing Peter's name. They were talking about Wormtail, and only Sirius was in a position to know who that was. Abigail From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 10:28:13 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 10:28:13 -0000 Subject: Can the Marauder's Map be deceived? (and more questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54291 This post deals with the following two quotes: Lupin's dialogue (snipped into a monologue) about looking at the Marauder's map on the timeturner night in PoA: > "I was watching [the map] carefully this evening, because I had an > idea that you, Ron, and Hermione might try and sneak out of the > castle to visit Hagrid before his hippogriff was executed. I > watched you cross the grounds and enter Hagrid's hut. Twenty > minutes later, you left Hagrid, and set off back toward the > castle. But you were now accompanied by somebody else. I > couldn't believe my eyes. I thought the map was malfunctioning. > How could he be with you? And then I saw another dot, moving > fast toward you, labeled /Sirius Black/... I saw him collide with > you; I watched as he pulled the two of you into the Whomping > Willow." PoA US Hardcover, page 348 Snape looking at the map, the same evening: > "Lying on your [Lupin's] desk was a certain map. One glance at it > told me all I needed to know. I saw you running along this > passageway and out of sight." PoA US Hardcover page 358 Also, a portion of Hollydaze's amazing PoA chronology (found on the Lexicon) may be helpful: > 8:55 Harry, Ron and Hermione go to Hagrid's, Harry and Hermione 2 > are waiting in Cupboard. (From the book) > 9:05 Harry, Ron and Hermione arrive at Hagrid's, Harry and Hermione > 2 just behind them. > 9:20 Hagrid sees the committee leaving the school. > 9:25 Harry, Ron and Hermione leave, The committee arrive, Harry and > Hermione 2 hide behind a tree. (From the book) > 9:26 McNair looks out of Hagrid's window. > 9:28 Harry and Hermione 2 rescue Beaky and are behind the tree > again. > 9:30 Scabbers has escaped, Committee in Hagrid's hut, Harry and > Hermione 2 + Beaky are hidden behind tree. > 9:31 Ron catches Scabbers, Sirius turns up as a Dog. > 9:32 Sirius drags Ron into the Whomping Willow. > 9:34 Harry and Hermione 1 follow Sirius and Ron. > 9:34 Committee go back up to school. > 9:39 Committee back inside the school. > 9:41 Lupin "sprints" out of the front doors. > 9:42 Lupin is inside the Whomping Willow. > 9:42 Hagrid leaves his hut. > 9:45 Hagrid arrives at the school front doors. > 9:47 Snape leaves the school. > 9:48 Snape arrives at the willow, picks up cloak and finds stick > then enters. > 9:52 (APROX) Sirius, Ron and Peter arrived in the Shrieking Shack. > 9:54 (APROX) Crookshanks, Harry and Hermione 1 arrive in the > Shrieking Shack. onto the show... Gina wrote: > I have a question about the map myself. Can it see double? > [reminder of Snape looking at the map in the above passage] > So, wouldn?t Snape then see TWO Hermiones and Harrys on the map? Nope. When Snape saw the map, HRH, Lupin, etc. were all in the passageway at this time (HRH first, Lupin trailing them by aprox. eight minutes), and TT!HH (time turner Harry and Hermione) were over by Hagrid's. The passageway "goes off the map" (PoA US Hardcover 336), and Snape sees Lupin in the passageway and "dissappearing" off the map. This means that in the brief moment that he glanced at the map, HRH (being further along that Lupin) would already be off of the map as well, so TT!HH would be the only "HRH" to appear on the map. In addition, since Snape only glanced at the map *and* was specifically looking for Lupin, he may not have even paid attention to TT!HH showing up over by Hagrid's hut. Annemehr wrote: > [The map] apparently shows nothing of the inside of Hagrid's hut > (as inferred by Lupin's words that he watched the trio enter the > hut, and then later saw them leave, but now they were accompanied > by Pettigrew). First, I'm going to comment on Lupin seeing HRH and TT!HH on the map. He watches HRH enter the hut. At this point in time, TT!HH are following behind HRH - and this is a path that shows up on the map. TT!HH don't hide behind the tree until after HRH are in the hut. So, assuming that TT!people show up on the map, Lupin would have had to have seen all five names. BUT Lupin notes that he "couldn't believe [his] eyes" and that he "thought the map was malfunctioning" (re: seeing Pettigrew on the map) - so perhaps seeing HRH and TT!HH on the map was also assumed to be a malfunction. (Like when you have poor television reception and see "shadows" of the images in the background.) Another explanation is that TT!people don't show up on the map at all. The map can see through anigami, invisibility cloaks, and polyjuice potions, but that doesn't mean it can see through all magical disguises. We know that MWPP would find it useful for cloaked and animagi-ed folks to show up on the map. And perhaps they also experimented with polyjuice and programmed it on the map as well. But they may not have had access to a time turner and thus didn't program that into the map... The map is programmed to show a person's physical location, but it may not be programmed to "read" the existence of one person being in two different physical locations at the same time. To deal with this, it ends up showing only one of the people, the more dominant presence, which would be the one that was initially on the map and not the other one that appeared on the map "out of nowhere"? Just a thought. Secondly, re: the map showing inside of Hagrid's hut. According to the chronology, Lupin waits until after the Committee has come and gone to race down to HRH & co. He excludes this information when describing what he saw on the map, but we know that the Committee members would have at least shown up on the map when entering and leaving the hut, and then entering the castle. Lupin's omission of this information does not mean that he did not see them on the map; Lupin's omission of seeing HRHW in the hut also doesn't mean he didn't see Wormtail then. Perhpas he important info that Lupin needs to express here is that a fourth party joined HRH. So the divisive point was before and after being in the hut, so he focused on that? Although, if he saw Wormtail in the hut, it's strange that, in his dialogue, his surprise is expressed after HRHW leave the hut, and not when the hut (and Wormtail) are first seen on the map. Distracted by the map "malfunctioning" and showing TT!HH? Curiouser and curiouser... Annemehr wrote: > Actually, I don't think *anyone* ever saw the timeturned Harry and > Hermione on the Marauder's map. Here's my reasoning: > > I don't believe that the map shows anything in the forbidden forest Interesting point. In order for something to be on the map, it has to have been mapped out by MWPP - so in order to have the Forbidden Forest (FF) on the map, MWPP would have had to have explored it. Initially I didn't find this plausible, but then I remembered that animagi!MWPP could have explored anywhere they wanted to. I can't really imagine them staying away from an out-of-bounds area, especially when they have their animal-protection. So that makes me think the FF *is* on the map. The same logic applies to the previous topic of Hagrid's hut, as well. This is purely speculation, but since MWPP apparrently were interested in exploration (and they had the invisibility cloak to help them out), I'd just assume that they would sneak into Hagrid's hut to check it out (for curiosity) and to make the map as complete as possible (because if you're going to the trouble of creating a map to aid in mischief, you might as well go all out and put everything on there that you possibly can.) On the other hand, Lupin says "then" he sees Black racing to Ron and Pettigrew... which leads me to believe he did not see Black on the map prior to that... the the "Sirius Black" dot appeared from off of the map, racing towards HRH... which means that Black came from an area that was *not* mapped out *but* was also close enough to see Ron and Wormtail. In the dark. Unless dogs have better vision than I'm aware of, that means that at least part of the FF (that is close to the edge of the FF and therefore more "map-able") must *not* be on the map. Perhaps the FF has magical qualities that guards it? It's forbidden from students for a reason - powerful creatures, from centaurs and unicorns (PS/SS) to the huge spider (CoS) live in the forest. (Don't have SS with me, but I'm positive there's a quote in there that better describes the forest in the chapter where they discover the unicorn blood during their detention...) But we don't know what it is about the FF that draws magical creatures to it. Could it be that the FF has magical qualities that make it an appealing dwelling place for magical creatures? Or, conversly, could it be that the magical creatures in the forest create (either by mere existence or specific spells, etc.) a bubble of protection that keeps the forest - and therefore them, as well - from being tracked, and therefore from appearing on the map? (hmmm... but does the map show magical creatures in addition to showing people?...) So the questions I'm left with are: * If the map doesn't show TT!people, then who else could sneak onto it, unnoticed, in the future? Is this something to be on the look out for? * If the map does show TT!people, then why was Lupin not surprised by this? (cough, cough, could this somehow be relevant to an Evil! Lupin? cough, cough) Did MWPP use a TT once?? * What could MWPP have done with polyjuice? Sneak into the girls' dorm to overhear Lily? Masquerade as Snape to get him in trouble? * What's up with the FF? What kind of deep magic could it hold? * If the FF is protected from being shown on the map, what about other magical places? When Harry was in the pensieve, did he appear as being in Dumbledore's office (literally inside the pensieve) or was the pensieve more of a portal that transferred him to a place where Dumbledore's thoughts and memories could be lived out? If Harry enters a magical room on the Hogwarts grounds, will it show up on the map? Could MWPP have mapped out *all* of Hogwarts? Even Dumbledore said there are rooms that he has never seen before or only sees at dawn, etc. - do those rooms show up on the map? * Mrs. Norris has shown up on the map (GoF US Hardcover 466) - does that mean that magical creatures show up on the map (which means that Crookshanks would show up, and that the map would be a great help if HRH ever find themselves back in the FF) OR is this further evidence that Mrs. Norris really is more than she appears to be? * Should we be on the lookout for Neville's toad showing up on the map? Ahck. It's so great when questions lead to questions... but it would be nice to have questions lead to answers, too. - Nobody's Rib (who's got a theory - it could be witches. Which is ridiculous, 'cos witches they were persecuted, wicca good, and love the earth, and women power, and I'll be over here...) From samwise_the_grey at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 06:59:05 2003 From: samwise_the_grey at yahoo.com (samwise_the_grey) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 06:59:05 -0000 Subject: Random thoughts on GoF Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54292 Hullo all, I don't usually post but some thoughts on certain characters have moved me out of lurk mode. Here goes. I've made an observation about Mad Eye Moody, or should I say Blind Eye Moody? We've got this glass that tends to be looking in strange directions while he is talking and that it's unnerving. Blind people tend to have the same problem controlling what their eyes do. Now I'm certain Moody can see from his other eye since there's nothing unusual mentioned about it, but wouldn't it be cool if he could only see with that crazy glass eye? A thought about poor Cedric. Maybe it's been stated before but his Father wants to live out his son's success by proxy. I get the feeling a lot of pressure was put on Cedric and when he fell a little short (his questionable victory at the Quidditch match which must've really bothered him) his father glosses it over quickly. And very rudely for that matter. I don't see how Cedric wasn't cringing in that chapter. Parents! Lots of parents do this, sadly, and Mr Diggery strikes me as almost a wizard version Vernon Dursley. Putting on airs, acting self important, putting the house elves in their place. I can easily picture him bragging loudly about a new broomstick in front of the neighbors. :) Fleur on closer inspection isn't as boring as people say she is. We have to consider the fact that from a very early age Fleur realized she could get men to do what she wanted. That's a hell of a power to give to a young girl. Being part Vela also causes men to objectify her and I don't think she can just turn the magic off. Most men (or boys) just ogle, leer, and generally don't give a hoot what she's like as a person. Her date doesn't listen to her conversation (who would want to anyway? kvetch, kvetch, kvetch). The photographer at the shoot (yuck! dirty old men!). In general men aren't worth any emotional investment to her. Just something to use least they use her. Her choice in Cedric for the Ball... Why Cedric? Sure he's a catch... Handsome, popular, and a champion. Krum is famous but isn't attractive enough. Harry is too young. Cedric has potential. Why? Did he get under her skin somehow (because he's such a nice guy) or was she thinking how great they'd look together? Hormones? Am I thinking too much about this? At any rate I wonder what happened when Fleur approached Cedric about the ball, "sent a blast" his way and it didn't work. Where is that mythical good Slytherin we wonder about? In the form of Victor Krum. He has Durmstrang's reputation over his head, a whole school of Slytherins. He has to sit and eat at the Slytherin table. He's got a former DE as a head master who I just know he can't stand to be around. Even the heroes find Krum suspicious because of the company he's been forced to keep. He's ambitious. He's very sharp. He even seems anti-social. Unless poor Krum found some friends at Durmstrung of like mind he must have been isolated at Durmstrang's like he was at Hogwarts. Hence this tough guy facade he keeps very well. Quidditch must have been his escape much like it is Harry's. I feel sorry for the bloke. He won't get Hermione, the person he cares most for. He gets knocked out near the Forest. Gets imperioed by Crouch to attack Fleur and Cedric, and while this is happening most of the audience would automatically assume that Krum is cheating to win. Well of course, he's from Durmstrang. It's to be expected. Some weeks later at the feast we see a very cowed Krum sitting at the Slytherin table, cringing with guilt at Dumbledore's speech. He played a part in Cedric's demise by doing Crouch's bidding. How horrible. "Samwise" From lisejohnston7 at hotmail.com Tue Mar 25 03:09:42 2003 From: lisejohnston7 at hotmail.com (anneliserosemayne) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 03:09:42 -0000 Subject: Filk: The boy from hogwarts castle, warning, r/h shippy. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54293 The Boy from Hogwarts Castle. Tall and tan and young and freckled The boy from Hogwarts castle goes walking And when he passes the one he passes goes, a-a-a-h. When he walks its like the tarantella, that Moves so cool and strides so gentle That when he passes the one he passes goes, a-a-a-h. Oh, but she watches so sadly How, can she tell him she loves him? Yes, she would give her heart gladly, But each day when he walks downs the hall, He looks down at her like his best pal. Tall and tan and young and freckled The boy from hogwarts castle goes walking And when he passes she smiles, But he doesn't see, No he just doesn't see. the end. lise. p.s. complete newbie, eh. as in, not even lurker. so hello. From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 10:51:48 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 10:51:48 -0000 Subject: filk: JC Superstar/ REDHEAD ALWAYS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54294 This REDHEAD ALWAYS tribute is done to the tune of "Jesus Christ Superstar," from Andrew Lloyd Webber's musical of the same name. (This is my first FILK, and I had so much fun doing it. Hope you enjoy! And hope it's not obviously my first attempt...) - Nobody's Rib (Sung by us, the faithful listees and readers, to Ron!Dumbledore, with a side note to JKR) Every time we read about you we don't understand How you know the things you know. Is there some larger plan? Your twinkling eyes cannot be a lie ? are they really blue or brown? And could Ron manage time travel to become a wizard renowned? The love for sweets; the long, long nose; the auburn hair... Well, JKR, if it's a red herring, you're not playing fair. (Dumbledore was Ron?) Dumbledore was Ron? (Dumbledore was Ron, now...) Dumbledore was Ron... (Dumbledore was Ron.) Dumbledore was Ron. (Dumbledore was Ron, now!) Dumbledore was Ron! (I only want to know) only want to know (I only want to know, now) only want to know (I can't wait for OoP) only want to know (I only want to know, now) only want to know Ro-o-on Weasley, Could you become the Great Bumblebee? Albus Dumbledore, Could you be who they all say you are? Ron is Dumbledore? The clues are too great to just be ignored Does your pensieve hold the secrets to your long and strange life? When and why and how did you make the time travel sacrifice Grindelow and Flammel: how do they both fit in? Is Aberforth made up or is he truly your kin? The trials and Riddle and Hagrid, were they hard to live through? Harry and Voldemort's fate ? is it now all up to you? (Ron is Dumbledore?) Ron is Dumbledore? (Ron is Dumbledore, now...) Ron is Dumbledore... (Ron is Dumbledore.) Ron is Dumbledore. (Ron is Dumbledore, now!) Ron is Dumbledore! (I only want to know) only want to know (I only want to know now) only want to know (I can't wait for OoP) only want to know (I only want to know now) only want to know Ro-o-on Weasley, Could you become the Great Bumblebee? Albus Dumbledore, Could you be who they all say you are? Ron is Dumbledore? The clues are too great to just be ignored... Ron is Dumbledore! The clues are too great to just be ignored! (repeat to fade) From abaron at erols.com Tue Mar 25 05:16:51 2003 From: abaron at erols.com (Ari Baronofsky) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 00:16:51 -0500 Subject: Harry and "I Love You" (was: Who is the boy?/ Harry's Funeral) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54295 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 00:19:34 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 While it's true that nobody's ever said "I love you" to Harry, it seems to me that he should know how well he's loved by sheer dint of his existence. Harry was told by Dumbledore sometime in PS/SS that he was saved because of his mother's love for him. I could see this causing problems as he grows up, possibly believing that everyone who loves him dies, but I'm sure he knows that he's loved. -A From kozmoz4 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 10:07:24 2003 From: kozmoz4 at yahoo.com (Zeynep Oner) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 02:07:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Can the Marauder's map be decieved In-Reply-To: <1048469872.5265.7950.m13@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030325100724.47318.qmail@web12505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54296 From: "Briony Coote" wrote > I have three questions about the Marauder's Map: > > 1 - Why didn't Peter Pettigrew show on the Map > during the years that the > Weasley twins used it, or when Harry started using > it? I don't think The map shows only the related people because: 1- remember it was made for mischief, you don't want anybody around 2- Barty Crouch was not related to Harry but he saw him there anyway, the map can't know if who it shows is in disguise or not I think the twins saw Peter Pettigrew but just thought him as a kid they actually haven't met. Zeynep __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 10:25:41 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 10:25:41 -0000 Subject: OoP meaning - was: book covers In-Reply-To: <20030324200734.29281.qmail@web41305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54297 : > > > Me: > alternate meanings of the title group: What > if the 'Order of the Phoenix' is not about a specific > phoenix(Fawkes) but more about > the qualities of the phoenix in general? Perhaps it > has more to do with rebirth, healing or some other > magical > properties surrounding the phoenix? Maybe the members > of the group posess some of these qualities in some > form? > > Tcy > (quickly re-lurking) > Well, Sirius (a member of 'the old crowd') is faithful(loyalty is also a dog-associated quality). I think he really *would* die rather than betray his friends, dog or human. His 'death' would have been when he was hauled into Azkaban, his rebirth the declaration of innosence. Lupin - I suppose being faithful to death counts for him, too - and well, I guess death/rebirth goes monthly (sort of) where he's concerned. Only time I recall them having tears is when they "healed" their relationship... Dumbledore? Well, he was *fired* of his potion as head master, but he was back in no time... Their word carry much weight with Harry... Arabella Figg? (I suppose that going to live as Muggle and returning may count as death/rebirth) Mundungus Fletcher? we know nothing, except that he filed for a lost tent(after sleeping under canvas), and tried to curse Arthur Weasley on back... -- Finwitch From martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk Tue Mar 25 10:44:02 2003 From: martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk (martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 10:44:02 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fawkes: His Age, His Name and the Timing of Ollivander's Wand Production Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54298 Phyllis wrote: >>In Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them, JKR tells us that >>the "phoenix lives to an immense age as it can regenerate, bursting >>into flames when its body begins to fail and rising again from the >>ashes as a chick" (p. 32). Steve (bboy_mn) replied: >The 300 to 500 year lifespan of a Phoenix is the lifespan of a single >lifecycle. That same Phoenix might go through dozens of lifecycles. > >This current lifecycle was started in CoS (I think) making Fawkes >about three years old. So he will live for another 497 years before he >regenerates again. I respond: I disagree. JKRs comment implies the phoenix lives to "an immense age" *because of* it's ability to regenerate, not that it has immense individual life spans ("as it can regenerate" are her words). We do not know how long a phoenix's individual life spans are, but they may be quite short, perhaps only a few years or decades. Although not proof, Dumbeldore's comment to Harry that he was sorry Harry had to see him on a burning day (paraphrased) strongly implies that Dumbledore has seen him on a burning day. This indicates that Fawkes has had at least 2 burning days since Dumbledore has owned him (<150 years). >From the interview it seems JKR named him Fawkes as a link to Guy Fawkes. Guy Fawkes died in 1606 inferring that Fawkes the phoenix can be no older than about 387 years (if CoS is set around 1993). The tradition of burning a guy on bonfires probaby started some years after Guy Fawkes was executed although no-one knows how long after his death the tradition began. Incidentally Guy Fawkes was hung, drawn and quartered and his severed head stuck on a spike - he wasn't burnt at the stake. Thus the tradition of burning his effigy as a means of celebration probably took a decade or so to take form. So 387 is a maximum age for Fawkes the phoenix, he could be younger. I see a slight possibility that he could be older but a previous owner would have had to rename him. Phoenixes are so rare and so few are tamed that a pre-Dumbeldore owner renaming him would be an insult to both the bird and the previous owner and that just does not sit right with me. Remember that JKRs lifespan of a phoenix does not have to agree with their supposed lifespans given elsewhere in folklore. So in my view we have a phoenix no more than 387 years old at the end of CoS, quite possibly as young as 380 depending on when the traditional burning of an effigy of Guy Fawkes on bonfires started. Of course Fawkes could even be younger than that - he could have been named after Guy Fawkes at any time in history. Dumbledore does not reveal (IIRC) that Fawkes is very old, only that phoenixes can live to be very old. Much to my annoyance this dismantles the interesting theory that Fawkes could be Godric Griffindor in animagus form. Cheers Martin (who loves logic puzzles and would make a very logical wizard) From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 10:47:57 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 10:47:57 -0000 Subject: Voldemort addressing Pettigrew as "Wormtail" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54299 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "beanneboy" wrote: > Phyllis said: > > > how is Voldemort able to identify each DE, given that they're all > masked and > > hooded? > > > > ~Phyllis > > now me: The D.E. circle was in a particuilar order, as you read when > Voldemort paused where there were people missing (e.g. Snape). He new > who was supposed to be filling those gaps, which means he knew who he > was speaking to (i.e. Malfoy). Well that is at least the way I saw it > anyhow. > > lee I agree on that particular order. The ones he passed in silence are *more* trusted than those he mentioned by name (as they know of those others mentioned, but i.e. Malfoy doesn't know their names). Then again, (just in case Harry got away) he might have been giving *false* information and only told the truth *after* Harry left, as if Harry's escape was *planned*... And, as the members are called when he touches the Dark Mark on someone's left arm - well, if he touches _middle_, he's calling all, if the other part, he calls only certain people... Also - well, if Snape's not the 'one who's left me forever' and Karkaroff's not the 'one who escaped', and Crouch Jr. not the 'one who remained loyal' - I wonder who they *could* be; But - who *are* the silently passed DEs? Could Rita Skeeter be one of them, sent to spy on Harry after he got away? People from Ministry, from St Mungos? Someone Harry's met? Someone he hasn't as yet? -- Finwitch From cindysphynx at comcast.net Tue Mar 25 15:01:40 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 15:01:40 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: List Closing Poll And Comments Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54300 Hi again from Hexquarters! Just a quick reminder that we're conducting a poll to take opinion about whether we should close the main list for some period when OoP is released. See Message 54228. There you will find a link where you can send us comments and ideas. The arguments pro and con are summarized in Message 54228, but there is one more argument concerning the list closing that was inadvertently omitted from that message. When GoF was released, we did receive press inquiries, and it is reasonable to assume that the same will happen with OoP. If the list is closed at such an important time in the fandom, the press as well as new members may be put off. Remember, though, that posts to this list must discuss the Harry Potter books themselves rather than matters of list policy. So please do contact us with your thoughts off-list, as many of you have done already. Lastly, just a point of clarification. Please do vote in the poll so that we can properly account for your opinion. The poll and the comments are meant to be two separate things, and sending comments isn't really a proper substitute for voting. And again, thank you for your thoughts. We've learned quite a bit from you all already! Cindy, for the Mods From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 15:42:35 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 15:42:35 -0000 Subject: Harry and "I Love You" /Guilt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54301 Ari wrote: >Harry was told by Dumbledore sometime in PS/SS that he was saved >because of his mother's love for him. I could see this causing >problems as he grows up, possibly believing that everyone who loves >him dies, but I'm sure he knows that he's loved. I can picture Harry not wanting Ron, Hermione, etc. to help him out in any way because he wouldn't want to feel guilty about someone who he lives sacrificing themselves for him. I think that will happen when someone else dies while trying to save his life. That could be anyone from Mr. Weasley to Hagrid because not only are they going to try to stop Voldemort from taking over the WW, but from also killing Harry. From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Mar 25 16:08:53 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 16:08:53 -0000 Subject: Why is PROFESSOR Binns a ghost? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54302 larryngocnguyen wrote: > J.K. Rowling has said in a number of interviews that the coming books > will reveal a lot about why some people become ghosts and some don't. > I was thinking: why then would Professor Binns become a ghost? Perhaps, > there's more to that story then we know... > Just some thoughts. Tell me what you think This came up about a month ago, and I composed a reply and never posted it. Here it is: Elkins and Eileen wondered about Professor Binns and the nature of his ghost status. I think it's reasonable to say that Binns has a massive piece of unfinished business. He teaches - and we can suppose he taught before he died - history at Hogwarts. Thus it is his business to tell Hogwarts students about the past and its effects on them. That is a role that he singularly fails to fulfill. He has plenty to say about Goblin rebellions and the like, but he is silent on crucial historical issues. How did Voldemort rise to power? What were the effects on WW society of his attempts to take over? How is the MOM shaped by efforts to resist him? What was Salazar Slytherin's legacy to Hogwarts and the WW? Did witch- burnings leave a lasting impact on the wizarding psyche? If anyone deserves not to be let off the hook until he has done what he is supposed to, it is Binns. Notice how he comes alive the one time he is forced to explain historical material of relevance to his class. His ghostly nature functions nicely as a metaphor for the author as storyteller, too, since it is he who most closely approximates JKR's own formal function as teller of the story of the WW. David From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 17:09:07 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:09:07 -0000 Subject: Fawkes' Age, "Wormtail" vs. Pettigrew, and Dumbledore as an Animagus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54303 Martin wrote: > From the interview it seems JKR named him Fawkes as a link to Guy > Fawkes. Guy Fawkes died in 1606 inferring that Fawkes the phoenix > can be no older than about 387 years (if CoS is set around 1993). Now me: Just because JKR has implied that she named Fawkes the phoenix after Guy Fawkes doesn't mean that Fawkes the phoenix has to have been born (for the first time) after the death of the real Guy Fawkes. I still maintain that we have no idea how old Fawkes is, and since phoenixes can live to an "immense" age in JKR's canon, Fawkes could be old enough to have once been Godric Gryffindor's phoenix (or animagus, depending on what you'd like to believe). I originally wrote: > So Voldemort may be afraid that the DEs will turn on Pettigrew if > they knew it was Pettigrew, so he's decided to call > Pettigrew "Wormtail" and let the DEs believe that Pettigrew is > still dead. and Becky responded: > The DE's will abide by whatever Voldemort decides concerning the > fate of this follower. And he is also in a position to > simply tell them know Peter did NOT betray him. So protecting > Pettigrew from Voldemort's followers has now become a moot point > really. Now me: Now that Voldemort has regained his body, yes, I agree that protecting Pettigrew from the other DEs has become a moot point. However, since Pettigrew was a crucial part of Voldemort's plan to regain his body and to regenerate using Harry's blood, I believe it was important to Voldemort to keep his identity hidden, especially from Barty Crouch Jr., who, in his own words, has stated: "if there's one thing I hate more than any other, it's a Death Eater who walked free." Pettigrew walked free, so in order for Pettigrew and Crouch Jr. to work together to implement Voldemort's regeneration plan, it is quite possible that Voldemort needed to hide Pettigrew's identity from Crouch Jr. in order to keep Crouch Jr. from killing Pettigrew. Now that Voldemort has been returned to his body, however, he has less of a need to keep Pettigrew's identity hidden. Which leads me to speculate on what might happen when (and if) Voldemort "breaks open" Azkaban and sets the DEs free ? Voldemort might just feed Pettigrew to his enemies. Leigh wrote: > We all seem to think that Dumbledore is an animagus Now me: Not all of us do! I don't! I think Dumbledore has powers that we have yet to find out about (such as how he can make himself invisible without an invisibility cloak), but I don't believe he's an animagus. ~Phyllis From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Mar 25 17:39:19 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 12:39:19 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why is PROFESSOR Binns a ghost? Message-ID: <48.1a41bde7.2bb1ee47@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54304 In a message dated 3/25/2003 10:11:55 AM Central Standard Time, dfrankiswork at netscape.net writes: > Thus it is his business to > tell Hogwarts students about the past and its effects on them. > > That is a role that he singularly fails to fulfill. He has plenty > to say about Goblin rebellions and the like, but he is silent on > crucial historical issues. How did Voldemort rise to power? What > were the effects on WW society of his attempts to take over? How is > the MOM shaped by efforts to resist him? What was > Or maybe he's trying to teach them how the history in the distant past is connected to the current or more recent history. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Neotoma73 at aol.com Tue Mar 25 16:44:51 2003 From: Neotoma73 at aol.com (annoyedpackrat) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 16:44:51 -0000 Subject: Snape wants acknowledgement for saving Harry ... In-Reply-To: <20030320210659.11605.qmail@web13509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54305 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, iluvgahan wrote: > > It's a small point, but I disagree that Snape doesn't want > some sort of acknowledgement from Harry for saving Harry's > life. My first reason is that in PoA when Snape confronts > Sirius and Lupin in the Shrieking Shack, Harry gets in the > way and Snape said something to the effect of 'you should > be down on bended knee thanking me' (not exact quote, but i > think it's close enough that you all know what I mean). My > second reason for thinking Snape wants some reward is when > Sirius escaped it made him furious, and when he lost his > Order of Merlin (he and Fudge were talking about that in > the corridor), I think it made him even madder.. > > Add to the fact that Snape never seems to get thanked for keeping a lid on the goings-on about school, and you have one frustrated Slytherin. All that ambition cries out for recognition, and Snape has apparently never gotten any, from his spying (since Sirius didn't know about it, I'd guess that his service against Voldemort was well- buried by the Ministry) to saving Harry from a Quirrel's jinxing at that first Quidditch game, to the whole farrago with Sirius in POA. The man does a lot of hard work but never gets any recogntion -- admittedly he's horrible in normal times, but he's always on top of things during a crisis -- and that must drive him crazy. AnneL From urbana at charter.net Tue Mar 25 18:43:40 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:43:40 -0000 Subject: Filk: The boy from hogwarts castle, warning, r/h shippy. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54306 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anneliserosemayne" wrote: > The Boy from Hogwarts Castle. > ... > Oh, but she watches so sadly > How, can she tell him she loves him? > Yes, she would give her heart gladly, > But each day when he walks downs the hall, > He looks down at her like his best pal. > .... > > lise. > p.s. complete newbie, eh. as in, not even lurker. so hello. Welcome Lise. I assume this song is set to the tune of "The Girl From Ipanema" . Good work! Maybe someone should try this from Ron's perspective since it's more obvious that HE likes Hermione than vice versa :-) Anne U (H/H shippers, we needs some filks ;-) From patricia at obscure.org Tue Mar 25 19:05:20 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 14:05:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fawkes' Age, "Wormtail" vs. Pettigrew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54307 On Tue, 25 Mar 2003, erisedstraeh2002 wrote: > Just because JKR has implied that she named Fawkes the phoenix after > Guy Fawkes doesn't mean that Fawkes the phoenix has to have been born > (for the first time) after the death of the real Guy Fawkes. Exactly. It only means he was given the name "Fawkes" after the gunpowder plot took place. He could have had a different name before that, or he could have been living in the wild and had no name at all. Personally, I don't believe Fawkes was Godric's phoenix. Phoenixes are notoriously hard to domesticate and extremely loyal. I doubt he would accept being handed down from wizard to wizard like a family pet. I believe he is with Dumbledore because he chose Dumbledore, and it is a testament to Dumbledore's greatness as a wizard that he could "domesticate" a phoenix where so many others have failed. > Now that Voldemort has regained his body, yes, I agree that > protecting Pettigrew from the other DEs has become a moot point. > However, since Pettigrew was a crucial part of Voldemort's plan to > regain his body and to regenerate using Harry's blood, I believe it > was important to Voldemort to keep his identity hidden, especially > from Barty Crouch Jr., who, in his own words, has stated: "if there's > one thing I hate more than any other, it's a Death Eater who walked > free." Pettigrew walked free, so in order for Pettigrew and Crouch > Jr. to work together to implement Voldemort's regeneration plan, it > is quite possible that Voldemort needed to hide Pettigrew's identity > from Crouch Jr. in order to keep Crouch Jr. from killing Pettigrew. I disagree that Pettigrew "walked free" in the sense that Crouch meant that. Pettigrew's life after Voldemort's defeat actually mirrors Crouch's rather closely. Both had to fake their deaths to avoid/escape Azkaban. Both then had to live in a terribly demeaning manner after that, Peter reduced to being a pet ret and Crouch hidden under an invisibility cloak 24 hours a day, subject to the Imperius Curse. Both had to avoid everyone who cared about them. (I don't think Crouch Sr. actually cared about his son.) Both were deprived of any meaningful activity. Both faced a lifetime of endless, stultifying boredom and pointlessness if they stayed hidden, and a far worse fate if they were discovered. Compare that to Snape and Karkaroff. Both of those two went on to hold prestigious positions and were accorded a good bit of social respect. Both were free to associate with whomever they chose, to engage in intellectual pursuits, professional advancement, hobbies, romantic relationships, and whatever else might catch their fancy. Whether either actually did all those things is not the point. They had the *opportunity* to do so, which is what makes them free. While Pettigrew might not have suffered quite as much as Crouch, his experience is much closer to Crouch's than to Snape, Karkaroff, Malfoy, etc. -- DEs who unequivocally did walk free. Furthermore, Pettigrew and Crouch were the only DEs who returned to Voldemort's service before Voldemort regained his full power. I would think that Crouch would feel far more brotherhood with Pettigrew than with most of the other DEs. I don't think Pettigrew needed to fear for his life around Crouch. > Now that Voldemort has been returned to his body, however, he has > less of a need to keep Pettigrew's identity hidden. Which leads me > to speculate on what might happen when (and if) Voldemort "breaks > open" Azkaban and sets the DEs free Voldemort might just feed > Pettigrew to his enemies. I think as long as Pettigrew remains useful Voldemort will keep him around. He gave Pettigrew quite a powerful reward in the form of that new hand. Right now Peter serves as an example of the rewards DEs can receive for loyal service to the Dark Lord, even (especially) service rendered at their own expense. I don't think Voldemort would waste that without a good reason. In fact, if he did knock off Pettigrew without a good reason (or allow another DE to do so), it would diminish the other DEs incentive to remain loyal. I think he will be keeping Peter around for a while. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com Tue Mar 25 19:16:14 2003 From: mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com (Edward Post) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 14:16:14 -0500 Subject: Pettigrew as "Wormtail" -- Quidditch metaphore again? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54308 Marianne wrote: >I've never gotten the impression that Voldemort likes Peter, but >rather finds him a convenient tool. And I also think he's convinced >that Peter would never turn on him because he had no where else to >go. Which, in turn, could be evidence of short-sighted thinking on >V's part. Peter might not work and connive to betray V, but I >wouldn't be surprised, should an opportunity eventually come Peter's >way to bolt to the "good guys", that he might just take it, >especially if he thinks Voldemort's position is becoming precarious. > >Marianne I'm enjoying the discussion about Wormtail's exploits. In thinking back on the ealier Quidditch banter, there was some discussion about whether or not Peter/Wormtail might be the metaphorical 'golden snitch' in a hypothetical game: Dark v. Harry & Co. Is there anybody else in the series who has recently (the last few years) spent as much time in the close proximity of BOTH Voldemort and Harry? Harry lived in the same dormitory with him for most of three years (has Harry EVER touched Wormtail/Peter/Scabbers??) and Voldemort was nursed by him for several months. Peter might be characterized as a weakling, but his exploits are important to many of the major characters in these books. Mr. Ed _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 19:19:50 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 19:19:50 -0000 Subject: Can the Marauder's Map be deceived? (and more questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54309 This is turning into a really good discussion! --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nobodysrib" wrote: > This post deals with the following two quotes: > > Lupin's dialogue (snipped into a monologue) about looking at the > Marauder's map on the timeturner night in PoA: > > > "I was watching [the map] carefully this evening, because I had an > > idea that you, Ron, and Hermione might try and sneak out of the > > castle to visit Hagrid before his hippogriff was executed. Annemehr: Yes, and notice that Luping was watching the map *specifically* to see if HRH would go to see Hagrid, so he was looking for them to appear between the castle and Hagrid's. Remember this for later. > Also, a portion of Hollydaze's amazing PoA chronology (found on the > Lexicon) may be helpful: > > > 8:55 Harry, Ron and Hermione go to Hagrid's, Harry and Hermione 2 > > are waiting in Cupboard. (From the book) > > 9:05 Harry, Ron and Hermione arrive at Hagrid's, Harry and Hermione > > 2 just behind them. Annemehr: But this last bit of the chronology is misleading you, I think. I was looking at the book itself last night, and this is what I found: (From ch. 21, "Hermione's Secret") [TT!HH are waiting in the cupboard and hear HRH leave the castle in the invisibility cloak. Then TT!HH discuss what the TT is and what they are supposed to do, while HRH are making their way to Hagrid's. TT!HH decide what they must do and leave the castle:] '"If anyone's looking out of the window --" Hermione squeaked, looking up at the castle behind them. "We'll run for it," said Harry determinedly. "Straight into the forest, all right? We'll have to hide behind a tree or something and keep a lookout --" "Okay, but we'll go around by the greenhouses!" said Hermione breathlessly. "We need to keep out of sight of Hagrid's front door, or we'll see us! We must be nearly at Hagrid's by now!" Still working out what she meant, Harry set off at a sprint, Hermione behind him. They tore across the vegetable gardens to the greenhouses, paused for a moment behind them, then set off again, fast as they could, skirting around the Whomping Willow, tearing toward the shelter of the forest.... Safe in the shadows of the trees, Harry turned around; seconds later, Hermione arrived beside him, panting. "Right," she gasped. "We need to sneak over to Hagrid's.... Keep out of sight, Harry...." They made their way silently through the trees, keeping to the very edge of the forest. Then, as they glimpsed the front of Hagrid's house, they heard a knock upon his door. They moved quickly behind a wide oak trunk and peered out from either side....' So you see that TT!HH took a *different route* across the grounds than HRH did, *and* that they arrived under the eaves of the forest and then had time to move through the trees to a spot where Hagrid's door was visible *before* HRH knocked on it. So if Lupin was watching HRH intently, he would not notice TT!HH moving off to the side, and then they were in the forest. nobodysrib wrote: > Annemehr wrote: > > > [The map] apparently shows nothing of the inside of Hagrid's hut > > (as inferred by Lupin's words that he watched the trio enter the > > hut, and then later saw them leave, but now they were accompanied > > by Pettigrew). > > First, I'm going to comment on Lupin seeing HRH and TT!HH on the > map. He watches HRH enter the hut. At this point in time, TT!HH are > following behind HRH - and this is a path that shows up on the map. > TT!HH don't hide behind the tree until after HRH are in the hut. So, > assuming that TT!people show up on the map, Lupin would have had to > have seen all five names. Annemehr: See above -- that TT!HH were not *behind* HRH but ran around a different way to the forest, and got there before HRH got to Hagrid's. So, while they were visible on the map, they were not near HRH and thus might well not be noticed. nobodysrib wrote: > Another explanation is that TT!people don't show up on the map at > all. The map can see through anigami, invisibility cloaks, and > polyjuice potions, but that doesn't mean it can see through all > magical disguises. Annemehr: But the Timeturner is not a form of magical disguise, it is a way of being two places at once. It's my opinion that TT!People do show up on the map. nobodysrib wrote: We know that MWPP would find it useful for > cloaked and animagi-ed folks to show up on the map. And perhaps they > also experimented with polyjuice and programmed it on the map as > well. But they may not have had access to a time turner and thus > didn't program that into the map... The map is programmed to show a > person's physical location, but it may not be programmed to "read" > the existence of one person being in two different physical locations > at the same time. To deal with this, it ends up showing only one of > the people, the more dominant presence, which would be the one that > was initially on the map and not the other one that appeared on the > map "out of nowhere"? Just a thought. Annemehr: I wonder if it might be simpler than this -- that they used a spell to make the map that locates and identifies whatever people are there, and this spell was just something that locates them all (like a magical radar) and indentifies them on the map, not that MWPP specifically programmed the map to recognize people under certain conditions. I have no way of knowing, of course. nobodysrib wrote: > Annemehr wrote: > > > Actually, I don't think *anyone* ever saw the timeturned Harry and > > Hermione on the Marauder's map. Here's my reasoning: > > > > I don't believe that the map shows anything in the forbidden forest > > Interesting point. In order for something to be on the map, it has > to have been mapped out by MWPP - so in order to have the Forbidden > Forest (FF) on the map, MWPP would have had to have explored it. > Initially I didn't find this plausible, but then I remembered that > animagi!MWPP could have explored anywhere they wanted to. I can't > really imagine them staying away from an out-of-bounds area, > especially when they have their animal-protection. So that makes me > think the FF *is* on the map. Annemehr: This is true -- they probably did go into the FF a lot. But, could they do it while making the map? My idea of how they made the map is that they carried the actual parchment with them all over Hogwarts while using whatever magic it was they used, to make it bit by bit, so to speak. I also think, since the map is activated with a wand, that they did this with their wands, and so needed to be in their human forms at the time (and under James' cloak, so they wouldn't be spotted). In other words, they did not just sit down in the common room and *draw* the map, they made it by carrying it all over Hogwarts and *taught* it. So, if they never took it into Hagrid's house, it didn't get mapped, and if they never wanted to go into the FF in human form, that didn't get mapped either (and they probably figured they didn't really need that part, anyway, as they probably only went there as animals). Pure speculation, of course, but I like it... nobodysrib wrote: > On the other hand, Lupin says "then" he sees Black racing to Ron and > Pettigrew... which leads me to believe he did not see Black on the > map prior to that... the the "Sirius Black" dot appeared from off of > the map, racing towards HRH... which means that Black came from an > area that was *not* mapped out *but* was also close enough to see Ron > and Wormtail. In the dark. Unless dogs have better vision than I'm > aware of, that means that at least part of the FF (that is close to > the edge of the FF and therefore more "map-able") must *not* be on > the map. Perhaps the FF has magical qualities that guards it? Annemehr: Hmmm... I don't know. It does seem to fit with FF being off the map, though... nobodysrib wrote: > So the questions I'm left with are: > > * If the map doesn't show TT!people, then who else could sneak onto > it, unnoticed, in the future? Is this something to be on the look > out for? Annemehr: Well, I do think TT!People show up, but on the other hand, the map probably couldn't be infallible -- maybe someone will find a way to defeat it sometime. > > * If the map does show TT!people, then why was Lupin not surprised by > this? (cough, cough, could this somehow be relevant to an Evil! > Lupin? cough, cough) Did MWPP use a TT once?? Annemehr: No Evil!Lupin! Anyway, you all know I don't think he did see them... > > * What could MWPP have done with polyjuice? Sneak into the girls' > dorm to overhear Lily? Masquerade as Snape to get him in trouble? Annemehr: Do we know that MWPP have any personal experience with polyjuice? *We* know the map shows Polyjuiced people's true identities from GoF, but does it say that MWPP know that? Other than Lupin saying that the map never lies? > > * What's up with the FF? What kind of deep magic could it hold? You got me! ;) > - Nobody's Rib (who's got a theory - it could be witches. Which is > ridiculous, 'cos witches they were persecuted, wicca good, and love > the earth, and women power, and I'll be over here...) Annemehr: You know, I've been thinking -- nobodysrib, that's a cool name! Annemehr From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 20:12:25 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:12:25 -0000 Subject: Fawkes' Age, "Wormtail" vs. Pettigrew PLUS Harry Did Touch Scabbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54310 First I wrote: > Just because JKR has implied that she named Fawkes the phoenix > after Guy Fawkes doesn't mean that Fawkes the phoenix has to have > been born (for the first time) after the death of the real Guy > Fawkes. then Patricia Bullington-McGuire responded: > Exactly. It only means he was given the name "Fawkes" after the > gunpowder plot took place. Now me again: Oh, dear, I'm not making myself clear. The point I'm trying (unsuccessfully!) to make is that JKR's choosing of the name "Fawkes" doesn't need to fit into the chronology of actual historical events. I think Fawkes has always been named Fawkes, ever since he was originally born, and that JKR chose his name because it symbolized the rebirth of the phoenix from fire. Patricia Bullington-McGuire again: > Personally, I don't believe Fawkes was Godric's phoenix. Phoenixes > are notoriously hard to domesticate and extremely loyal. I doubt > he would accept being handed down from wizard to wizard like a > family pet. I believe he is with Dumbledore because he chose > Dumbledore, and it is a testament to Dumbledore's greatness as a > wizard that he could "domesticate" a phoenix where so many others > have failed. Me again: I do think Fawkes was Gryffindor's phoenix, but I don't see him as being handed down like a pet. I agree that he chooses his master, and I think he chose both Gryffindor and Dumbledore. I also think there's some sort of connection between Gryffindor and Dumbledore, and that Fawkes is part of that connection. Since both Gryffindor and Dumbledore are considered great wizards, I think it's plausible that both of them could have domesticated Fawkes. Patricia Bullington-McGuire again: > I disagree that Pettigrew "walked free" in the sense that Crouch > meant that. Pettigrew's life after Voldemort's defeat actually > mirrors Crouch's rather closely. Both had to fake their deaths to > avoid/escape Azkaban. Both then had to live in a terribly > demeaning manner after that, Peter reduced to being a pet ret and > Crouch hidden under an invisibility cloak 24 hours a day, subject > to the Imperius Curse. Me again: I still think there are significant differences. Crouch Jr. spent a year in Azkaban, while Pettigrew never went there at all. Crouch Jr. was controlled by the Imperius Curse, while Pettigrew was able to choose what he wanted to do. It was Pettigrew's decision to live as a rat - no one forced him to live that way. I would argue that Pettigrew had a fairly enjoyable life as a rat - as Ron says, all he did when he was Scabbers was eat and sleep, which isn't really such a bad existence (IMO, anyway)! Patricia Bullington-McGuire again: > Furthermore, Pettigrew and Crouch were the only DEs who returned to > Voldemort's service before Voldemort regained his full power. Me again: Yes, but again there are significant differences: Crouch Jr. was eager and anxious to find Voldemort (and was sent to Azkaban as a result) while Pettigrew hid from Voldemort for 12 years and only went to seek him out when he "was driven out of hiding by those he had once counted friends" (Ch. 33, GoF). Mr. Ed asked: > (has Harry EVER touched Wormtail/Peter/Scabbers??) Me again: Yes. End of Ch. 12 PS/SS: "but then, he thought, as he [Harry] shoved Scabbers off his pillow..." ~Phyllis From BEANNEBOY1 at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Mar 25 20:08:54 2003 From: BEANNEBOY1 at HOTMAIL.COM (beanneboy) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:08:54 -0000 Subject: Origin of name Fawkes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54311 I have read a lot of messages regarding how Fawkes name come from Guy Fawkes etc, and somebody mentioned that JKR mentioned it in an interview. Now did JKR say in that interview that whoever oringally named the phoenix 'Fawkes', do so becuase of the actual event of the gunpoweder plot? OR... Did JKR name it Fawkes when writing the books, with relevance to the historical origin of the event, but with no real bearing to the books themselves ??? In which case the timeline of the Gunpowder Plot would be of no real significance. either way if someone would let me know....... Lee From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 20:51:22 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:51:22 -0000 Subject: Fawkes: His Age, His Name and the Timing of Ollivander's Wand Production In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54312 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, martin.soilleux-cardwell at a... wrote: > Phyllis wrote: > > >>In Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them, JKR tells us that > >>the "phoenix lives to an immense age as it can regenerate, > >>bursting into flames when its body begins to fail and rising > >>again from the ashes as a chick" (p. 32). > > Steve (bboy_mn) replied: > >The 300 to 500 year lifespan of a Phoenix is the lifespan of a > >single lifecycle. That same Phoenix might go through dozens of > >lifecycles. > > > >This current lifecycle was started in CoS (I think) making Fawkes > >about three years old. > > I respond: (Martin) > > I disagree. JKRs comment implies the phoenix lives to "an immense > age" *because of* it's ability to regenerate, not that it has > immense individual life spans We do not know how long a phoenix's > individual life spans are, but they may be quite short, perhaps > only a few years or decades. bboy_mn: While JKR's mythology of the Phoenix many not match history perfectly, it is still based on the standard mythology of the common Phoenix. How can the most common age of a Phoenix lifecycle of 500 years be considered an 'immense age' when wizards themselves appear capable of living to over 200 years old? On that scale to qualify as 'immense', it would have to live many thousands of years. The most common reference to a Phoenix single lifecycle span is 500 years, although, you also come across- 100, years, 540 years, 1000 years, 1461 years, and in one and only one rare case it is listed as 12.994 years based on a cyclical precise re-alignment of the planets. Those same digits are sometimes shown as 12,994 years. The accepted standard is that a Phoenix has both a long lifecycle (500 years) and an immensely long total lifetime (many many thousands of years). > Martin continues: > Dumbeldore's comment to Harry that he was sorry Harry had to see him > on a burning day strongly implies that Dumbledore has seen him on a > burning day. > bboy_mn: You say 'stongly implies'; I say vaguely implies. Dumbledore could just as easily have been basing that statement on general knowledge of Phoenixes, or on the experience of having seen another Phoenix burn, or more likely based on the fact that before Fawkes burned he was molting and generally looking pretty ragged. He wouldn't have had to see Fawkes burn before because he could see on that very day, that Fawkes looked bad. So the comparison could have been Fawkes' appearance on a normal day vs appearance that day just before he burned. > Martin: > From the interview it seems JKR named him Fawkes as a link to Guy > Fawkes. Guy Fawkes died in 1606 inferring that Fawkes the phoenix > can be no older than about 387 years (if CoS is set around 1993). > bboy_mn: The name Fawkes is a lot older than Guy Fawkes and has it origins in the name Faux (also: Fox, Foxx, Foxe, Faix, Fauks, Fawks, Fawkes, Fowkes, Fochs, Focks, Foks, Foux, Fowks). Also, the name Fawkes is another bit of JKR naming irony, just as she named a dog animagus after the dog star Sirius, and Remus after a boy raised by wolves. This is something in the real world between JKR and her readers. There is no indication in the fictional world of the book, that Fawkes was named after Guy Fawkes. > Martin: > > Remember that JKRs lifespan of a phoenix does not have to agree > with their supposed lifespans given elsewhere in folklore. > bboy_mn: True but JKR's mythology is still based on standard mythology even if she doesn't adhere to it completely. There are very few mythical elements that are uniquely her creation. > Martin: > > Much to my annoyance this dismantles the interesting theory that > Fawkes could be Godric Griffindor in animagus form. > > Cheers > Martin bboy_mn: Only if you believe that in the fictional world of the book, Fawkes was named after Guy Fawkes. Again, that is true in the real life world, but there is no indication in the ficitonal world of the book that it's true. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 21:00:59 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 21:00:59 -0000 Subject: Origin of name Fawkes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54313 Lee (beanneboy) wrote: > Now did JKR say in that interview that whoever originally named the > phoenix 'Fawkes', do so because of the actual event of the > gunpowder plot? OR... Did JKR name it Fawkes when writing the > books, with relevance to the historical origin of the event, but > with no real bearing to the books themselves ??? In which case the > timeline of the Gunpowder Plot would be of no real significance. Now me: Here's the excerpt from the interview, but unfortunately, it doesn't conclusively answer your question. I believe it's the latter scenario you posed, and that the timing of the actual historical events are not significant. Q: "What is Bonfire Night?" JKR: "Good question! We celebrate November 5th in Britain every year. There was a plot to blow up the Houses of Parliament. The ringleader of the plot was called Guy Fawkes (spot any Harry Potter connection?!), and we burn him in effigy and set off fireworks to celebrate not losing our government." (see: http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm) ~Phyllis From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Mar 25 21:04:38 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 21:04:38 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? and Why I hate the H/G Ship In-Reply-To: <00db01c2f281$5f399f30$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54314 Calliope had made the point that Harry already *has* the Weasley family, through Ron. In response to this, I remarked: <<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>> Penny: >>>>Well, speaking for myself, I would certainly say that romantic/sexual love is quite a different level than friendship love. So, I would say that actually, yes, they certainly could care more about each other than they do already. Eros would bring an entirely different intimacy to the relationship. <<<< Well, that's just it. Intimacy and sexual/romantic love are not the same thing, certainly not where teenage boys are concerned. Harry doesn't need to be romantically involved with Ginny to develop emotional closeness to the Weasley family and he doesn't need to be romantically involved with Hermione to become closer to her. In fact it might make it more difficult. Harry's cravings for Cho certainly didn't make it easier for him to connect with her. If Harry starts developing similar feelings for Hermione, they're bound to make him uncomfortable. He might fight shy of them and start being as tetchy with her as Ron is. Now that's an H/H relationship I could believe in, though I have this feeling it's not what H/H'ers have in mind I would say Harry does care deeply about Hermione, but he expresses this by being willing to take risks on her behalf physically rather than emotionally. We're not really sure whether Harry *can* give or accept love in a more direct way--that's part of the suspense. Harry's deepest feelings are still very much kept to himself. The swiftness with which he befriends Hagrid, Ron and Sirius implies that he does indeed have a pent up longing to connect, but so far the reader has far more access to Harry's feelings than even his closest friends. Unless there have been heartfelt conversations "offstage" (and that's as creaky a device as any god from the machine) Hermione and Ron don't know about Harry hearing his parents' deaths when the Dementors are near, they don't know that he's known all along about Voldemort's wand core, or that he daydreams about playing World Cup Quidditch or has nightmares about Voldemort laughing. When it comes to emotional knowledge of Harry, Ron and Hermione are more on a par with Neville and Ginny than they are with us. Much as I would like to see this change, I don't see Hermione as being the catalyst, even if Harry does develop romantic feelings for her. Harry's never going to feel safe sharing his feelings with her until she stops trying to improve him. If she did that now, it might cost him his life--he really needs her more as a coach than a confidante at this point. That's the one edge Ginny has. For all that we know so little about her, we do know this: it's extremely unlikely that she thinks anything about Harry Potter needs to be improved. Pippin From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 21:08:20 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 21:08:20 -0000 Subject: Fawkes' Age, "Wormtail" vs. Pettigrew PLUS Harry Did Touch Scabbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54315 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > > Me again: (Phyllis) > > I do think Fawkes was Gryffindor's phoenix, but I don't see him as > being handed down like a pet. I agree that he chooses his master, > and I think he chose both Gryffindor and Dumbledore. I also think > there's some sort of connection between Gryffindor and Dumbledore, > and that Fawkes is part of that connection. Since both Gryffindor > and Dumbledore are considered great wizards, I think it's plausible > that both of them could have domesticated Fawkes. > > > ~Phyllis bboy_mn: I agree that it is Fawkes who chooses his next master, and one could assume that the next master he chooses is the greatest Gryffindor currently living. We already see Fawkes developing a friendship with Harry. So I have no doubt that before the story is over, Fawkes will belong to Harry. I have also speculated that the 'Heir to Gryffindor' is not a biological heir, although that possibility isn't excluded, but the person who Fawkes chooses as his next master. It's sort of like King Arthur pulling the sword from the stone. It's based, not on how or to whom you were born, but whether you have grown to be worth of being the heir. Based on a quality of being, not a right of birth. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Tue Mar 25 22:15:48 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 22:15:48 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? and Why I hate the H/G Ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54316 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Much as I would like to see this change, I don't see Hermione as being the catalyst, even if Harry does develop romantic feelings for her. Harry's never going to feel safe sharing his feelings with her until she stops trying to improve him. If she did that now, it might cost him his life--he really needs her more as a coach than a confidante at this point. That's the one edge Ginny has. I do not see Hermione 'trying to improve him', why would she want to? I was under the impression that she already thinks very highly of him (You're a Great Wizard Harry!). Hermione is also more than just a 'coach'. Of the three of them, *she* seems to be the most prudent and her 'advice' tends to be more cautionary than, say, Ron's, but it is usually *good* advice whether or not he actually 'takes it'. I don't see Ginny having any kind of edge. Why would Harry all of the sudden turn to her for his confidences when Ron and Hermione know more of his 'story'? Erica From saddletank at v21.me.uk Tue Mar 25 22:31:39 2003 From: saddletank at v21.me.uk (Martin) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 22:31:39 -0000 Subject: Fawkes: His Age, His Name and the Timing of Ollivander's Wand Production In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54317 Steve (bboy_mn) and I had an interesting exchange which ended with: Me: >> JKRs comment implies the phoenix lives to "an immense >> age" *because of* it's ability to regenerate, not that it has >> immense individual life spans. > Steve wrote: > While JKR's mythology of the Phoenix many not match history perfectly, > it is still based on the standard mythology of the common Phoenix. How > can the most common age of a Phoenix lifecycle of 500 years be > considered an 'immense age' when wizards themselves appear capable of > living to over 200 years old? On that scale to qualify as 'immense', > it would have to live many thousands of years. Me again: Can I just clarify that when I say 'lifespan' I mean from first birth to final death, not 'lifecycle' which I intend to mean from burning and rebirth to next burning. Can I also then add that I think it is worth looking at JKR's magical creatures as she writes about them and put aside much of our real- world folklore? Her unicorn foals have attributes (coloured gold until aged 2 then silver until aged about 7) that I have not come across in other folklore. I don't have my books to hand but I expect it is possible to find other examples of where JKR has taken magical creatures from real-world folklore and given then different or modified attributes to suit her stories. Moving on now, nothing I said limited a JKR phoenix (for want of a better phrase since that's what we are discussing) to a 500 year lifespan. They may live much much longer than this, and indeed to "immense" ages. We do not know what JKR is comparing that "immense" with. She does not say she is comparing that with a 150 year old wizard headmaster and I take it to mean she is comparing it to an ordinary human lifespan. If I die aged 75 then a 500 year old phoenix lifespan of 500 years is "immense" to me (a horribly subjective word and one I think it's hard to measure, don't you agree) ;) I wrote: >> Dumbeldore's comment to Harry that he was sorry Harry had to see him >> on a burning day strongly implies that Dumbledore has seen him on a >> burning day. Steve responded: > You say 'stongly implies'; I say vaguely implies. Dumbledore could > just as easily have been basing that statement on general knowledge of > Phoenixes, or on the experience of having seen another Phoenix burn, > or more likely based on the fact that before Fawkes burned he was > molting and generally looking pretty ragged. He wouldn't have had to > see Fawkes burn before because he could see on that very day, that > Fawkes looked bad. So the comparison could have been Fawkes' > appearance on a normal day vs appearance that day just before he burned. I understand your point, but generally when a person says something like "I'm sorry you had to visit my garden after a long dry spell since my South American Spagbolingias look so wilted in this heat" it usually implies direct personal experience of how the Spagbolingias look when they are this dried up, not a comment based on the general appearance of Spagbolingias in dry hot weather or the next door neighbours Spagbolingias. I still take Dumbledore's comment to be one spoken from personal experience of Fawkes previous burning days (note not previous ragged looking days, but *burning* days). I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. My impression is still that Dumbledore has seen Fawkes experience this before, and in fact reasonably frequently since he is quite blase about it. If I owned a phoenix that burnt only once every 500 years I would consider myself very privelidged to experience a burning day in my lifetime and would not merely have a 5 minute passing conversation about it with a friend. If this *were* Fawkes' once-in-500-years burning then I think such a wise and sensitive man as Dumbledore would be much more expressive over the incident. Again if phoenixes do burn in the WW only about once every 500 years, then Dumbledore is indeed a lucky man to have seen any other phoenix burn and be reborn, if we consider that he's talking about them generally and not Fawkes specifically. I went on: >> From the interview it seems JKR named him Fawkes as a link to Guy >> Fawkes. Guy Fawkes died in 1606. Steve commented: > The name Fawkes is a lot older than Guy Fawkes Me: I agree. Steve again: > Also, the name Fawkes is > another bit of JKR naming irony, just as she named a dog animagus > after the dog star Sirius, and Remus after a boy raised by wolves. > This is something in the real world between JKR and her readers. There > is no indication in the fictional world of the book, that Fawkes was > named after Guy Fawkes. Me: That is a valid argument. However I argue with equal validity that the names are more than just a play on words between JKR and her readers. I argue that the names are real in the WW and are based on actual historical (our-world) characters. JKRs world draws so much from our-world mythology that the two must be the same world for the "jokes" to work. If Fawkes the phoenix isn't named after Fawkes the gunpowder-plotter there *is* no play on words and no point in naming him thus in the book. [rest snipped] Steve: > Just some thoughts. I'm enjoying reading them. Can't say I agree but I'm having fun discussing the issues ;) Martin From saddletank at v21.me.uk Tue Mar 25 22:45:22 2003 From: saddletank at v21.me.uk (saddletank) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 14:45:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Fwd: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why is PROFESSOR Binns a ghost?] Message-ID: <3570778.1048632325187.JavaMail.Administrator@atp> No: HPFGUIDX 54318 [snip David's interesting stuff about Binns' unfinished business] I suspect that Binns being dead and still teaching is just a JKR joke. Who hasn't, as a child, sat through a desperately tedious boring lesson and wondered to oneself "This guy is so *dull*! I bet he could drop dead and not even notice he was dead, he is so *boring*. I think that's all Binns is, an exaggerated jibe at boring teachers. Regards Martin "...I want to fix that in my memory for ever," said Ron, his eyes closed and an uplifted expression on his face. "Draco Malfoy, the amazing bouncing ferret..." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jentifred at spamcop.net Tue Mar 25 23:31:29 2003 From: jentifred at spamcop.net (Jennifer Angliss) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 16:31:29 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fawkes' Age, "Wormtail" vs. Pettigrew PLUS Harry Did Touch Scabbers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1048635089.287d3f5feefc0@webmail.spamcop.net> No: HPFGUIDX 54319 Quoting erisedstraeh2002 : > First I wrote: > > > Just because JKR has implied that she named Fawkes the phoenix > > after Guy Fawkes doesn't mean that Fawkes the phoenix has to have > > been born (for the first time) after the death of the real Guy > > Fawkes. > > then Patricia Bullington-McGuire responded: > > > Exactly. It only means he was given the name "Fawkes" after the > > gunpowder plot took place. > > Now me again: > > Oh, dear, I'm not making myself clear. The point I'm trying > (unsuccessfully!) to make is that JKR's choosing of the name "Fawkes" > doesn't need to fit into the chronology of actual historical events. > I think Fawkes has always been named Fawkes, ever since he was > originally born, and that JKR chose his name because it symbolized > the rebirth of the phoenix from fire. Oh, it's perfectly clear to me! It's similar to Professor Sprout teaching herbology and Professor Lupin being a werewolf. It's not as if Sprout changed her name when she got interested in Herbology or Lupin changed his when he was bitten. From the characters' POV it is coincidence, but from ours it is a clue. Jennifer From jentifred at spamcop.net Tue Mar 25 23:34:14 2003 From: jentifred at spamcop.net (Jennifer Angliss) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 16:34:14 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fawkes' Age, "Wormtail" vs. Pettigrew PLUS Harry Did Touch Scabbers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1048635254.522bd4f0a10c6@webmail.spamcop.net> No: HPFGUIDX 54320 Quoting Steve : > I have also speculated that the 'Heir to Gryffindor' is not a > biological heir, although that possibility isn't excluded, but the > person who Fawkes chooses as his next master. It's sort of like King > Arthur pulling the sword from the stone. It's based, not on how or to > whom you were born, but whether you have grown to be worth of being > the heir. Based on a quality of being, not a right of birth. I like that idea, and it goes right along with what Dumbledore said at one point about how it is our choices and not our abilities that truly define us. Sorry I can't be more specific on the quote, but my books are 1000 miles away and I'm sure I got the gist of it. Jennifer From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Tue Mar 25 23:59:24 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 23:59:24 -0000 Subject: Random thoughts on GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54321 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "samwise_the_grey" wrote: Lots of snips: Re:Amos Diggory Mr Diggery strikes me as almost a wizard version Vernon Dursley. Putting on airs, acting self important, putting the house elves in their place. I can easily picture him bragging loudly about a new broomstick in front of the neighbors. :) > "Samwise" I think you are too hard on Amos Diggory. Remember that Ceddy is Amos' only child. He has a lot invested in his boy and Cedric doesn't disappoint. He's a very fine example of a Hufflepuff, a hard worker, believes in fair play. Modest. Not bad on a broom either. Amos has much to be proud of, even if he can be a bit obnoxious about it. I don't see him as anything close to Vernon Dursley. Dursley has a big bullying git for a son whose main accomplishment has been to become as wide as he is tall. Nothing much there to crow about and yet he crows. I'd take Amos with his overweaning blindspot to Uncle Vernon any day. Enjoyed your thoughts. JenD From t.forch at mail.dk Tue Mar 25 21:58:21 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 22:58:21 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape wants acknowledgement for saving Harry ... In-Reply-To: References: <20030320210659.11605.qmail@web13509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030325222454.00d27460@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54322 At 16:44 25-03-03 +0000, annoyedpackrat wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, iluvgahan >wrote: > > > > It's a small point, but I disagree that Snape doesn't want > > some sort of acknowledgement from Harry for saving Harry's > > life. > > > >The man does a lot of hard work but never gets any recogntion -- >admittedly he's horrible in normal times, but he's always on top of >things during a crisis -- and that must drive him crazy. Oh yes. And that he is a sadistic teacher who abuses his power (according to JKR) and who must have joined Voldemort knowingly and willingly does of course not invalidate his claim on recognition - but I must say that I think it is understandable that the beneficiaries (Harry in particular) find it hard to show any gratitude. Troels Radio interview with WBUR 'The Connection' Numbers in {} are playing time references: {18:51} JKR: Snape is the - er - very sadistic teacher. [...] {19:10} JKR: ... teachers do sometimes abuse their power and this particular teacher /does/ abuse his power. He is not a - he is not a particularly pleasant person at all. /However/, everyone should keep their eye on Snape, I'll just say that, because there's more to him than meets the eye, and you will find out part of what I'm talking about if you read book four. [...] [Interviewer: One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is gonna fall in love?] JKR: Yeah? Who on earth would want Snape in love with them, that is a very horrible idea. Umm. [Interviewer: But it's got an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape] JKR: It is, isn't it ... There's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it'd ruin ... I promise you ... whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I'm - I'm slightly stunned that you've said that - umm - and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read book 7. And that's all I'm gonna say. From bkb042 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 26 01:58:47 2003 From: bkb042 at yahoo.com (Brian) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 01:58:47 -0000 Subject: Origin of name Fawkes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54323 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > Lee (beanneboy) wrote: > > > Now did JKR say in that interview that whoever originally named the > > phoenix 'Fawkes', do so because of the actual event of the > > gunpowder plot? OR... Did JKR name it Fawkes when writing the > > books, with relevance to the historical origin of the event, but > > with no real bearing to the books themselves ??? In which case the > > timeline of the Gunpowder Plot would be of no real significance. > > Now me: > > Here's the excerpt from the interview, but unfortunately, it doesn't > conclusively answer your question. I believe it's the latter > scenario you posed, and that the timing of the actual historical > events are not significant. > > Q: "What is Bonfire Night?" > > JKR: "Good question! We celebrate November 5th in Britain every year. > There was a plot to blow up the Houses of Parliament. The ringleader > of the plot was called Guy Fawkes (spot any Harry Potter > connection?!), and we burn him in effigy and set off fireworks to > celebrate not losing our government." > > (see: http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm) > > ~Phyllis Of further historical significance, it should be noted that one of Guy Fawkes's co-conspirators in the Gunpowder Plot, was an individual by the name of Ambrose Rookwood. Spot any deeper Harry Potter connection?! Brian From kristen at sanderson-web.com Wed Mar 26 01:59:10 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (GKJPO) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 01:59:10 -0000 Subject: Circular room on the cover Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54324 As I was going through GoF (for the gagillionth time) last night, the word "circular" caught my eye. There's been a lot of speculation on which is the special room that Harry doesn't know the magical properties of yet and there's a picture of a room on the American version of the cover. Are they the same? I don't know, but it looked to me like the room on the cover is circular, so I started going back through and identifying the circular rooms mentioned in the book. I found the following: - The Gryffindor common room - Dumbledore's office - The Divination classroom (the room, the tables and the trapdoor are circular) I looked back through the references to these rooms and noted that none of them mentioned having other doors in them (like you see on the cover) or candles there on a regular basis though I would guess that the common room would have the doors to the dormitories. I think each of these rooms has great possibilities. The common room and Dumbledore's office have connections to Godric Gryffindor and if the Chamber of Secrets is any indication, Godric will also have left behind a magical area he created. These two places seem like the most likely candidates. The Divination classroom is also a very interesting place for Harry as he always seems to have visions or encounter others having visions there. I think it may be one of these rooms on the cover. Another point of interest: there are no circular references to the room behind the Great Hall where Harry goes in Book 4 (after being chosen and to greet the Weasleys. This room has been suggested as a special place, but I found the description other than the mention of the witch Violet to be lacking. A scant description to me means that the room has no special meaning as JKR seems to put special effort into describing and repeating several times throughout the books areas that are important. The other place I investigated was the room where the Deathday party was held. This room had the candles for the party, but no circular properties. Does anyone else have thoughts on which room is on the cover? Kristen From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Wed Mar 26 02:42:08 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 02:42:08 -0000 Subject: Fawkes: His Age, His Name and the Timing of Ollivander's Wand Production In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54325 Steve Wrote: Also, the name Fawkes isanother bit of JKR naming irony, just as she named a dog animagus after the dog star Sirius, and Remus after a boy raised by wolves. This is something in the real world between JKR and her readers. There is no indication in the fictional world of the book, that Fawkes was named after Guy Fawkes. Martin Wrote: That is a valid argument. However I argue with equal validity that the names are more than just a play on words between JKR and her readers. I argue that the names are real in the WW and are based on actual historical (our-world) characters. JKRs world draws so much from our-world mythology that the two must be the same world for the "jokes" to work. If Fawkes the phoenix isn't named after Fawkes the gunpowder-plotter there *is* no play on words and no point in naming him thus in the book. ==================================================================== Hello all, Fred Waldrop here Ok, on the one hand, Fawkes is not that old, but could still live a very long age. He was nameed after Guy Fawkes who died in 1606, and could not be Godric Griffindor in animagus form. On the other hand, Fawkes is very old, named after an older version of "Fawkes", ie, "The name Fawkes is a lot older than Guy Fawkes and has it origins in "the name Faux (also: Fox, Foxx, Foxe, Faix, Fauks, Fawks, Fawkes, Fowkes, Fochs, Focks, Foks, Foux, Fowks)", and could possibly be Godric Griffindor in animagus form. Now this is how I see it, The Pheniox we all love, is named after Guy Fawkes, but was named "Fawkes" a long time before Guy Fawkes was born. After all, we do not know if Godric Griffindor could see into the future, but seeing as how he was well before his own time in allowing "muggle born" W&W into school, he must have been able to see something from the future. So, if Griffindor could see the future, he must have seen someone that had a holiday named for himself, Guy Fawkes. Hence, he named his Pheniox "Fawkes" after Guy Fawkes from the future. Or, he named himself, in animagus form "Fawkes" the same way. Fred From shufan90 at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 26 02:59:57 2003 From: shufan90 at sbcglobal.net (shufan) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:59:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort addressing Pettigrew as "Wormtail" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030326025957.86772.qmail@web80303.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54326 "stickbook41" wrote: > Does anyone know why Voldemort addresses Peter Pettigrew > as "Wormtail"? This struck me as odd since "Wormtail" was the > nickname his school friends gave him. It struck me as a way to remind Peter of all that he did in his service to Voldomort. Wormtail was the name his friends gave to Peter and he betrayed all of them. Having this nickname used constantly is to further Peter's submission and his guilt that he can no longer go back to the life he once had. j From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Mar 26 03:08:31 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (pennylin) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 21:08:31 -0600 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? and Why I hate the H/G Ship References: Message-ID: <02cc01c2f344$fba2a060$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 54327 Hi -- Calliope had made the point that Harry already *has* the Weasley family, through Ron. In response to this, Pippin remarked: <<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>> I responded with: >>>>Well, speaking for myself, I would certainly say that romantic/sexual love is quite a different level than friendship love. So, I would say that actually, yes, they certainly could care more about each other than they do already. Eros would bring an entirely different intimacy to the relationship. <<<< Pippin has now said: <<>>>>>>>> Ah, there's one of the difficulties. We're talking about entirely different things. Yes, teenage boys, especially the younger teenage boys, certainly often do fight off emotional ties and intimacy. But see, I don't necessarily forsee or even want Harry to become involved with Hermione as a teenager. I'd prefer to see them both grow up and then realize what's been sitting in front of them all these years. To do that, they'll each need to have some heart-aches, disappointments, failed romances and the like. No fairy tales for my characters, thanks. :--) Harry has already suffered some, and if Hermione becomes involved with Ron, she's likely to suffer some heart-ache too (IMHO). Yes. Harry doesn't *need* romance to become closer to Hermione, but if he *had* a romance with her, I think it's inevitable that they would become closer (at least during the pendency of the romance). And, that is the point to the Weasley family argument. Harry doesn't need a romance with Ginny to be a part of the Weasley family. If he's to have a romance with Ginny, I would surely hope it's not because he wants her family. I would hope it's because he wants *her* for who she is. <<<>>>>>>>>>>>>> But, Harry already has confided in Hermione! He has shared feelings with her, and she has acted as his confidante (during the entire fight with Ron in GoF). He also confided in her about thinking that he'd seen his dad on the other side of the Lake in PoA. To the extent that Hermione tries to "improve" Harry, I think it's always out of concern for his safety and well-being. It's not because she thinks he's not a good enough person as is. Yes, she harps on *both* boys about their schoolwork (but even that is becoming less and less as time goes on). Her other actions with regard to Harry always revolve around his safety, not his character flaws or failings as a human being. I somehow doubt that Harry wants Ginny to fawn over him adoringly. I somehow picture he'd want someone who would challenge him, someone with enough backbone to both support him but tell it like it is when need be. If Ginny's principal strengths as a future mate for Harry are her status as a Weasley and her undying devotion to the notion that Harry Potter is perfect just as he is, I think Ginny has a tough case. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 26 03:12:33 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 03:12:33 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? and Why I hate the H/G Ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54328 Pippin wrote: > he doesn't need to be romantically involved with Hermione to > become closer to her. In fact it might make it more difficult. > > Harry's cravings for Cho certainly didn't make it easier for him to > connect with her. If Harry starts developing similar feelings for > Hermione, they're bound to make him uncomfortable. He might > fight shy of them and start being as tetchy with her as Ron is. > Now that's an H/H relationship I could believe in, though I have > this feeling it's not what H/H'ers have in mind I would actually love to see Harry and Hermione have it out. The only person we ever get to see arguing with Hermione is Ron. Harry just doesn't speak with her at all with he's mad at her, like when he didn't speak to her in PoA and even then I didn't think he was *that* mad. I got the impression Ron was instigating and being that Ron is his favorite bestfriend, imo, he stood by Ron. Pippin wrote: > I would say Harry does care deeply about Hermione, but he > expresses this by being willing to take risks on her behalf > physically rather than emotionally. We're not really sure whether > Harry *can* give or accept love in a more direct way--that's part > of the suspense. > > Harry's deepest feelings are still very much kept to himself. The > swiftness with which he befriends Hagrid, Ron and Sirius > implies that he does indeed have a pent up longing to connect, > but so far the reader has far more access to Harry's feelings > than even his closest friends. Unless there have been heartfelt > conversations "offstage" (and that's as creaky a device as any > god from the machine) Hermione and Ron don't know about > Harry hearing his parents' deaths when the Dementors are near, > they don't know that he's known all along about Voldemort's > wand core, or that he daydreams about playing World Cup > Quidditch or has nightmares about Voldemort laughing. When it > comes to emotional knowledge of Harry, Ron and Hermione are > more on a par with Neville and Ginny than they are with us. I, also, noticed he still isn't very open with all his feelings. And it's all because of those stupid Dursleys. They've made him shut off from the rest of the world. He speaks about things when he's sure that no one will judge him or when he doesn't have a choice, at least I think. Thank you for pointing out that he has never mentioned anything about hearing his mother when the dementors got close to him, etc. Did he tell them that the Sorting Hat wanted to put him in Slytherin? I don't think so, but I can't remember. > Much as I would like to see this change, I don't see Hermione as > being the catalyst, even if Harry does develop romantic feelings > for her. Harry's never going to feel safe sharing his feelings with > her until she stops trying to improve him. If she did that now, > it might cost him his life--he really needs her more as a coach > than a confidante at this point. I never got the impression that Hermione was trying to improve Harry. Helping Harry to better himself, yes, but not improve. Improving sounds like a Flitwick telling Harry and Neville to improve on the Summoning Charm. Hermione is at a different level, she's his friend. I think she sees potentiality in Harry and Ron and would like for them to try the best they can. I know she's bossy, it's in her nature. At first, in PS/SS, it's utterly annoying, but now as she's grown close to Ron and Harry it's more than just trying to boss them around. Like I said, she sees more in them than they do so she's trying to help them out in a way. Wasn't she proud of Harry when he told her (lied to her, actually) about finding out what that egg was about, *all by himself*, for the Second Task? Her attitude seemed, imo, like, "See Harry you can do it! It wasn't that hard was it?! I knew you'd figure it out!" I'm assuming when you meant "coach", you meant help Harry out and there is nothing wrong with that. But she is his bestfriend, therefore, *IS also* his confidante. If not he wouldn't tell her anything. > That's the one edge Ginny has. > For all that we know so little about her, we do know this: it's > extremely unlikely that she thinks anything about Harry Potter > needs to be improved. I didn't know that. I know as little of Ginny's intentions for Harry as Hermione's for Krum. We'll never know until JKR gives us the scoop, hopefully, in OoP. Greicy, H/H forever ;) From suzloua at hotmail.com Wed Mar 26 03:19:52 2003 From: suzloua at hotmail.com (Susan Atherton) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 03:19:52 -0000 Subject: Can the Marauder's Map be deceived? (and more questions) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54329 I'm not keeping up with the main list like I used to, but occasionally I check in and curse as I see something I wish I'd read from the start :) Like this, for example! Annemehr said: So you see that TT!HH took a *different route* across the grounds than HRH did, *and* that they arrived under the eaves of the forest and then had time to move through the trees to a spot where Hagrid's door was visible *before* HRH knocked on it. So if Lupin was watching HRH intently, he would not notice TT!HH moving off to the side, and then they were in the forest. My little addition: Something I was thinking about the other day: how do we know Lupin did or did not see them? We only know he didn't mention having seen them. McGonagall "had to write all sorts of letters to the Ministry of Magic to make sure [Hermione] could have [a Time Turner]". Doesn't it make sense that since she was using it "only for [her] studies" that all the teachers would be aware of it? I know it's tempting to think only McGonagall, Dumbledore, and Hermione know about the TT. But what if Flitwick makes some offhand comment in the staff room about Hermione Granger performed a perfect, oh, I don't know, Wingardium Leviosa ;). Snape frowns and says "But Miss Granger was busy being a know-it-all in my classroom at the time." Cue confusion, questions, and awkward answers for McGonagall. (I can't imagine Dumbledore ever feeling awkward, so no awkwardness for him :) ) I think all the teachers who taught her - so that's Vector, Sinistra, McGonagall, Snape, Flitwick, Lupin, Sprout, and whoever teaches Muggle Studies, plus anyone else I've forgotten - knew about her TT. My mental jury is still out on Hagrid - he's not a real professor, and he's got a habit of getting drunk and letting things slip a la Fluffy, but technically he should know since he teaches Hermione. In the same fashion, I don't think Hooch or Pomfrey would know - Pomfrey doesn't seem to in the hospital. Any ideas on Hagrid, anyone? So when Lupin saw: running-----> ____________ HG HP RW-----> | Hagrid | | PP | HG2 HP2 ...he might not have quite understand WHY H&H were time-turning, but he would have understood that they WERE time-turning and therefore he probably shouldn't mention it until he knows why - he might inadvertently screw up history in all sorts of ways, because they wouldn't BOTH be there unless it was for a good reason (Hermione has obviously told Harry, why would she if it wasn't an emergency? Wondering about what this emergency was could also have been part of the distraction making him forget about his Wolfsbane Potion). However, I do really quite like the theory that the map was charmed with things they themselves could access, and they only had the Animagus/Cloak/Polyjuice enabling spells, rather than a TT. I also like the idea that you can only see who is on the plane of time you yourself are on - HH2 could see themselves and HH1, wheras Lupin could only see HH1 because to him, HH2 didn't exist yet. Will we ever get a definitive answer? Probably not. But isn't it fun to debate in the meantime! Susan ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "Help me Jebus!" --Homer Simpson "Shame on you! Ugly baby judges you!" --Ross Geller "Oh yeah, and did I mention I've got a baby?" --Stuart Alan Jones "You know, I telephoned my grandparents the other day, and my grandfather said to me, 'We saw your movie.' 'Which one?' I said, and he shouted, 'Betty, what was the name of that movie I didn't like?'" --Brad Pitt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grosich at nyc.rr.com Wed Mar 26 03:27:53 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina R Rosich) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 22:27:53 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Can the Marauder's Map be deceived? (and more questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54330 On 3/25/03 10:19 PM, "Susan Atherton" had this to say: > > > Doesn't it make sense that since she was using it "only for [her] studies" > that all the teachers would be aware of it? > > I know it's tempting to think only McGonagall, Dumbledore, and Hermione know > about the TT. But what if Flitwick makes some offhand comment in the staff > room about Hermione Granger performed a perfect, oh, I don't know, Wingardium > Leviosa ;). Snape frowns and says "But Miss Granger was busy being a > know-it-all in my classroom at the time." Cue confusion, questions, and > awkward answers for McGonagall. (I can't imagine Dumbledore ever feeling > awkward, so no awkwardness for him :) ) > > I think all the teachers who taught her - so that's Vector, Sinistra, > McGonagall, Snape, Flitwick, Lupin, Sprout, and whoever teaches Muggle > Studies, plus anyone else I've forgotten - knew about her TT. > > While you raise an interesting point, I think the answer is no. Because Dumbledore tells Snape outside the infirmary that there is no way H&H could be in two places at once. If Snape knew Hermione had a TT, he would?ve immediately made the leap and suspected her of using it. --- Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From urbana at charter.net Wed Mar 26 03:40:30 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 03:40:30 -0000 Subject: Muggle-borns getting to Hogwarts, Muggles in Diagon Alley and the Grangers In-Reply-To: <3E09FEEC.52C97F13@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54331 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > > > "what412name " wrote: > > > > Hi, this is my first post and I was curious about the following, as I > > could not find the answers in the FAQ or lexicon. > > > > Questions on muggle-born wizards/witches like Hermione: > > 2) How do they get to Diagon Alley or Platform 9 &3/4 (1st year)? > > Likely a rep from the school or some wizard is put in charge or asked to > look for these students and help out. > Harry had Hagrid to help him, after all. I'm sure Hermione had help as > well in her first time after getting her 'letter'. > Anne U: Sorry to bring back this question from *3 months* ago (Christmas, to be exact) but I'm re-reading CoS to my daughter and she and I both got to wondering about this. I can easily understand Hagrid mentoring Harry on getting ready to attend Hogwarts; Hagrid brought Harry from Godric's Hollow to Privet Drive as a baby, and then rescued him from the Dursleys on his 11th birthday. However, nobody *official* from Hogwarts showed Harry how to get onto Platform 9 3/4 at the start of first year; Hagrid had already disappeared (or disapparated) by then, so Harry was really quite lucky to see the Weasleys rushing the gateway (of course that "chance encounter" was the start of Harry & Ron's friendship). Now I'm wondering who would have been Hermione's mentor (Professor McGonagall?) or Seamus Finnegan's (to give two immediate examples). I'm also wondering how Hermione's parents got into Diagon Alley with her to go to Gringotts and to buy books at Flourish and Blotts, and how Hermione's parents might have felt, standing there in F&B in the midst of all these wizards (especially with Lucius "Mr. Pureblood" Malfoy and Arthur "Mugglelover" Weasley tussling right under their noses). We know a lot about Harry's childhood and his "de facto parents," the Dursleys, and how Harry grew up, and a reasonable amount about Molly and Arthur Weasley - at least enough to have an idea of how Ron grew up, but we still know next to nothing about how Hermione got to be Hermione and what her family thinks about all this Wizarding stuff. I truly hope that JKR will tell us much more about Hermione's family in OoP. To me that's a gap that really needs to be filled. Anne U (Hermione fan obsessing about weird details yet again) From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 26 03:51:31 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 03:51:31 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? and Why I hate the H/G Ship In-Reply-To: <02cc01c2f344$fba2a060$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54332 Penny wrote: >Ah, there's one of the difficulties. We're talking about entirely >different things. Yes, teenage boys, especially the younger teenage >boys, certainly often do fight off emotional ties and intimacy. But >see, I don't necessarily forsee or even want Harry to become >involved with Hermione as a teenager. I'd prefer to see them both >grow up and then realize what's been sitting in front of them all >these years. To do that, they'll each need to have some heart- >aches, disappointments, failed romances and the like. No fairy >tales for my characters, thanks. :--) Harry has already suffered >some, and if Hermione becomes involved with Ron, she's likely to >suffer some heart-ache too (IMHO). I, like you Penny, think that it is best for them to be with other people and then realize their feelings for each other. I'll even be happy if Hermione and Ron get together (maybe Harry will realize his feelings for her). He'd then be the one to console her because Ron would be the one to most likely break up with her. I have a feeling he may leave her due to his interest in anothet girl, say Lavender or Parvati. The thing is how will JKR develop such romances for Harry with everything that's going on. I doubt she'll leave such juicy details of Harry's love life for an epilogue, unless the epilogue is the size of a regular book, then I don't have a problem (especially if it's with Hermione). ;) I think Hermione may have suffered a little heart-ache already when Ron said, "Hermione's, Neville's right - you *are* a girl..." I would have been crushed if the guy I like, or had a crush on, told me that. It's as if she's never existed. Imagine!? I think I would have knocked him out! ;) Greicy From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 26 04:07:39 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 04:07:39 -0000 Subject: Muggle-borns getting to Hogwarts, Muggles in Diagon Alley and the Grangers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54333 Anne wrote: > I'm also wondering how Hermione's parents got > into Diagon Alley with her to go to Gringotts and to buy books at > Flourish and Blotts, and how Hermione's parents might have felt, > standing there in F&B in the midst of all these wizards (especially > with Lucius "Mr. Pureblood" Malfoy and Arthur "Mugglelover" Weasley > tussling right under their noses). > > We know a lot about Harry's childhood and his "de facto parents," > the Dursleys, and how Harry grew up, and a reasonable amount about > Molly and Arthur Weasley - at least enough to have an idea of how > Ron grew up, but we still know next to nothing about how Hermione > got to be Hermione and what her family thinks about all this > Wizarding stuff. I truly hope that JKR will tell us much more about > Hermione's family in OoP. To me that's a gap that really needs to > be filled. > > Anne U > (Hermione fan obsessing about weird details yet again) What a coincidence? I was just asking my mom how is it that Hermione's parents can enter The Leaky Cauldron and then enter Diagon Alley. Do they see The Leaky Cauldron and do they have access to it and Diagon Alley because Hermione is the witch in their family? I have been *dying* to find out more about her parents. I must have said it a few times already here. It doesn't make any sense for us to know about Harry's parents (we have to, actually, but you know what I mean) and Ron's and nothing of Hermione's. We know more about Neville's parents and he isn't even a main character. I am assuming that JKR will give us some insight on them, hopefully OoP. Especially, since this year Dumbledore sent out a letter stating that Voldemort is back. Will the Grangers let Hermione go to school? Will they have Hermione invite Harry to actually meet the boy who lived/escaped from Voldemort's wrath and could possibly put their daughter in danger? Plus, Ron visiting a muggle home would be a wonderful scene. In, Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter, they state that any statement or actions interrupted means JKR is hiding a clue. Could it be considered an interruption when Mr. Weasley's swooshes the Grangers away to speak with them about Muggle life? Is there a reason why Harry didn't get the opportunity to know them? I hope it's nothing bad! Greicy, also a Hermione obsessed fan, but doesn't think these details are weird at all, but just thinks we have the right to know From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Wed Mar 26 04:17:57 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 04:17:57 -0000 Subject: Can the Marauder's Map be deceived? (and more questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54334 "Susan Atherton" says: Doesn't it make sense that since she was using it "only for [her] studies" that all the teachers would be aware of it? I know it's tempting to think only McGonagall, Dumbledore, and Hermione know about the TT. But what if Flitwick makes some offhand comment in the staff room about Hermione Granger performed a perfect, oh, I don't know, Wingardium Leviosa ;). Snape frowns and says "But Miss Granger was busy being a know-it-all in my classroom at the time." Cue confusion, questions, and awkward answers for McGonagall. (I can't imagine Dumbledore ever feeling awkward, so no awkwardness for him :) ) I think all the teachers who taught her - so that's Vector, Sinistra, McGonagall, Snape, Flitwick, Lupin, Sprout, and whoever teaches Muggle Studies, plus anyone else I've forgotten - knew about her TT. Gina R Rosich says: While you raise an interesting point, I think the answer is no. Because Dumbledore tells Snape outside the infirmary that there is no way H&H could be in two places at once. If Snape knew Hermione had a TT, he would?ve immediately made the leap and suspected her of using it. ==================================================================== Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; I know this discusstion has been going on for some time, but I thought I would just put my two knuts in. IMHO, the Marauder's Map shows the person what they want [or](need) to see. In Harry's case, it showed where the teachers were, and any one else who could cause problems at that time to him. So, when Lupin wanted to see where HHR were, it showed him that(plus of course, his friends that helped make the map). If it showed everybody, the paper would be so cluttered with names it would not do anyone any good. I mean, if you put 1000 students, 20 teachers(? or more) and other staff, on a piece of paper less than 12"X12", it would be umreadable. Unless Lupin was sorta expecting to see 2 sets of HH, he would not have wanted to see them both, and therefore, he would not have seen them. I know that it has not been in canon that this is how the map works, but as far as I remember, there has never been any canon on exactly how the map work. So, if the map is "magical", then it might somehow read your mind, and then show you what it is you are wanting to see. Fred From alician at bigpond.com Wed Mar 26 06:08:34 2003 From: alician at bigpond.com (Alicia) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 06:08:34 -0000 Subject: Muggle-borns getting to Hogwarts, Muggles in Diagon Alley and the Grangers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54335 Anne U asked: Questions on muggle-born wizards/witches like Hermione: 2) How do they get to Diagon Alley or Platform 9 &3/4 (1st year)? Me: This has been bugging me since I first read these books! My theory is that there are two acceptance letters from Hogwarts. If there's a magic quill that can tell when wizard children are born, surely it can also tell who the parents are. So, children with at least one wizard parent get the letter Harry got, just saying, "Get your books and be on the train" because they will have family to tell them all about it. So Seamus, who is half/half, would be fine with this letter. Harry had two wizard parents and lives with people who were able to tell him that, so he also got this letter. I don't think Hagrid is a specific mentor to Harry so much as that Harry is a special case. Hogwarts sent Hagrid to make sure he got the letter. It *was* a stroke of luck, though, that he saw the Weasleys on the platform. I think Hagrid was meant to tell him that but forgot On the other hand, children with two muggle parents get a different letter, being more explicit. My school used to have information nights for new pupils the year before they started, and I think Hogwarts invites muggle families to a similar information session at the Leaky Cauldron - if the children can see a doorway and lead them to an invisible pub, parents must realise that something's up. At the session someone explains about the hidden WW, how to get to Diagon Alley, change money at Gringott's, find the train platform, communicate by owl, etc. Possible also hints on how to hide it from other people - that the child has won a scholarship to some exclusive school abroad, or whatever. Parents who don't accept this for their child get a Memory Charm, parents who do go through to Diagon Alley and buy the schoolbooks. I would also love to know more about the Grangers though, especially if we could see Ron in a muggle house. Alicia From briony_coote at hotmail.com Wed Mar 26 01:12:15 2003 From: briony_coote at hotmail.com (Briony Coote) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 13:12:15 +1200 Subject: More questions about Sirius Message-ID: <000001c2f334$bceb9580$8ba9a7cb@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 54336 1 - If Sirius is cleared, what could happen to Buckbeak? Wouldn't Buckbeak be still under sentence of death? Perhaps they would be too busy about Voldemort to worry about a hippogriff. 2 - Why was Fudge so eager to put the Kiss to Sirius Black? You'd think he'd be all agog to hear how Sirius escaped from Azkaban. Was he anxious for a quick conclusion to this "highly embarrassing Black affair" or could he have had ulterior motives? 3 - Somebody asked that if Sirius were imprisoned once more, wouldn't he be able to escape on his own, like he did before? I would say no. They would certainly press him, under veritaserum, to find out how he escaped the first time, and make sure he doesn't try it again. I dread to think what punishments might be in store for him if he ever returned to Azkaban. Anyway, they would certainly take extra measures with him once he was returned to Azkaban. 4 - Hmmm . any thoughts on what changes might have taken place in Azkaban security in the wake of Sirius's escape? 5 - Lupin said that he had refrained from telling Dumbledore that Sirius was an animagus because he was "too cowardly". But could there have been another reason? Did Lupin subconsciously doubt that Sirius was a murderer? Or perhaps thinking that Sirius might have been acting under the Imperius Curse, and not been a true murder at all? Briony From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Mar 26 06:40:34 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 06:40:34 -0000 Subject: The Quarrel Song (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54337 The Quarrel Song (GoF, Chap. 19) To the tune of Gollum's Song, from Peter Jackson's LOTR: The Two Towers (music by Howard Shore) Dedicated to Amy Z See the original lyrics at: http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/thelordoftheringsthetwotowers/gollumsso ng.htm THE SCENE: The Gryffindor Common Room, 1:00 a.m. HARRY'S "fireside chat" with Sirius is abruptly interrupted when RON enters. HARRY takes out his anger on his former friend. HARRY: Where once spoke Black of dragon ways There now is Ron, in short PJs Just say goodbye. Don't be such a wise guy. This badge I throw, Will give you scars 'Cause you have cut me off from My one dog star. And I will lose Because I've no clue I am toast, I'll be dragon fondue. RON: I'm off to bed, My snooze I will renew Go practice for Your Prophet interview. Now I say goodnight Harry, you really bite. BOTH: These threats you make All sound so lame. You I despise, Due to that flame. And you're a creep I/you must face the task alone I am pissed You can never atone I am pissed You can never atone (Exit HARRY, storming past the half-angry half-bewildered RON) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (updated 3/26/03 with 41 new filks) From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Wed Mar 26 09:04:00 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 09:04:00 -0000 Subject: New/Old Friends? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54338 I have just re-read all 4 books again that JKR has written for our pleasure, for the forth time, if she will just give us the remaining three, I will extreamly pleased. But, that is for another thread. My question is this; Do you think that now, seeing Harry knows who and what Mrs. Figg is, will he want to go and visit her? I mean, after Harry has found out that Mrs. Figg is Arabella Figg of "the old croud", and she only lives 2 blocks away. And he was there when DD said "Sirius I need you to set off at once. You are to alert Remus Lupin, Arabella Figg, Mundungus Fletcher - The old croud"(page 713 US). I would think he would want to go and find out as much as he could. After all, it does sound like she could tell him almost everything that happened in the past. Plus, she can tell him what is most probable in the future. After all, she has already lived through it once. Fred From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 26 09:51:34 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 09:51:34 -0000 Subject: New/Old Friends? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54339 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Fred Waldrop" wrote: > ... Do you think that now, seeing Harry knows who and what Mrs. Figg > is, will he want to go and visit her? > > ...edited... > > Fred bboy_mn: I don't think Harry does know; he hasn't put the pieces together yet. I think that will be one of the surprises in the next book, when Harry meets Mrs. Figg face to face in the wizard world. There is some speculation that she is going to be the next Defense Against Dark Arts teacher; we know it's going to be a female. While I think it would be cool for Harry to walk into DADA class and find his babysitter there, I'm more inclined to think that it will happen over the summer. Perhaps she will ask him to come over on the pretense of doing some chores, and when he gets there he will find Sirius and/or Remus waiting for him. That would be a pretty cool scene too. Just a thought. bboy_mn From martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk Wed Mar 26 09:21:54 2003 From: martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk (martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 09:21:54 +0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? and Why I hate the H/G Ship Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54340 [long and interesting discussion snipped] All I see at the moment is: Ron (has crush on) Hermione (has crush on) Harry (has crush on) Cho. Ron's interest in Hermione is mainly hormonal I think and Ron's not sussed it out yet, is even fighting it. Hermione is slowly realising her feelings for Harry go deeper than respect/friendship. Harry appears to have a basic teenager hormonal thing for Cho and is possibly thinking about it. Cho is a post-Cedric mangled wreck for the moment. I can't seem to fit Ginny into this picture at all since we've ben told basically nothing about her. Is it design that we see a chain made up of one-ended links? I think so. Part of the fun is that we see only Harry's viewpoint, and only the outward signs or snippets of the other's feelings that JKR reveals to us. Certainly a series of books entitled 'Hermione Granger and the Hogwarts Years' would be a fascinating read. ;) OoP is going to be one zinger of a read for a whole pile of reasons... Regards Martin "...I want to fix that in my memory for ever," said Ron, his eyes closed and an uplifted expression on his face. "Draco Malfoy, the amazing bouncing ferret..." From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Mar 26 09:35:03 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 09:35:03 -0000 Subject: The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54341 > bboy_mn: > I take almost the opposite approach. You can survive a plane crash, > you can survive a serious illness, but not many people survive death. > That's what Harry did; he did the impossible, he survived the > unsurvivable, the unblockable, the unstoppable Death Curse. > > Harry isn't the boy who lived, he is 'The Boy Who Lived'. Yes, he > survived, but his survival goes way beyond beating the odds, to doing > the impossible. In that context, I think I think the word 'Lived' is > intended to contrast absolute death, and not just a statistical > likelihood of surbviving something tramatic. > > Just a thought. Just my thoughts: What I think of is that someone could ask: "How can anyone live like that?" and gain the response "It's not living, it's surviving". Also, living is more than surviving. I'm not so sure if Harry's being at Dursleys can be considered "living" in this sense - except most wizards don't know how he is surviving more than living - pretending he doesn't exist when Dursleys have guests... Another, that "you only live twice: Once when you're born and second when you face death" would also apply. Harry did face death - and he lives still... Also, the past tense is there to remind us that Harry can die! We've seen the ghosts and nothing to say Harry won't be one; there's Trelawney telling Harry that he'll die... well, we ALL die someday so that's one prediction that can't go wrong. Harry *might* die in Book #7 or earlier, if he becomes a ghost... -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Mar 26 08:44:51 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 08:44:51 -0000 Subject: Fawkes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54342 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Fred Waldrop" > > Fred: > > Ok, on the one hand, Fawkes is not that old, but could still live a > very long age. He was nameed after Guy Fawkes who died in 1606, and > could not be Godric Griffindor in animagus form. > On the other hand, Fawkes is very old, named after an older version > of "Fawkes", ie, "The name Fawkes is a lot older than Guy Fawkes and > has it origins in "the name Faux (also: Fox, Foxx, Foxe, Faix, Fauks, > Fawks, Fawkes, Fowkes, Fochs, Focks, Foks, Foux, Fowks)", and could > possibly be Godric Griffindor in animagus form. > > Now this is how I see it, The Pheniox we all love, is named after Guy > Fawkes, but was named "Fawkes" a long time before Guy Fawkes was > born. After all, we do not know if Godric Griffindor could see into > the future, but seeing as how he was well before his own time in > allowing "muggle born" W&W into school, he must have been able to see > something from the future. > So, if Griffindor could see the future, he must have seen someone > that had a holiday named for himself, Guy Fawkes. Hence, he named his > Pheniox "Fawkes" after Guy Fawkes from the future. Or, he named > himself, in animagus form "Fawkes" the same way. Now, for a one thing, just because JKR named a phoenix Fawkes after Guy Fawkes because of a regular fire-festival connected to that name, does not mean that Godric Gryffindor, Albus Dumbledore or any wizard In The Book's World even knew that there was/would be a Guy Fawkes. Instead, well maybe the wizard just liked the name. Also, I'm with the theory of a phoenix choosing it's master. He knows that Dumbledore is dying, so he's making connection to Harry. 1) Fawkes' feather in Harry's wand. (earlier incarnation in Dumbledore's?) 2) Harry's true loyalty to Dumbledore 3) Rebirth with Harry watching 4) Singing when two wands with Fawkes' feather meet; Harry won. Well, I think that a dialogue between Dumbledore & Harry like... "... and I'd like you to take care of Fawkes, Harry" "But sir, I know nothing about phoenixes" "Sit down Harry, and I'll tell you everything". ... could well take place. -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Mar 26 08:14:35 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 08:14:35 -0000 Subject: More questions about Sirius In-Reply-To: <000001c2f334$bceb9580$8ba9a7cb@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54343 Briony: > 5 - Lupin said that he had refrained from telling Dumbledore > that Sirius was an animagus because he was "too cowardly". But > could there have been another reason? Did Lupin subconsciously > doubt that Sirius was a murderer? Or perhaps thinking that Sirius > might have been acting under the Imperius Curse, and not been a > true murder at all? I believe that Lupin *did* subconsiously doubt - such as seeing Ron's rat looking very much like Peter Pettigrew he knew at school, for example, but then disregarding it from his consious mind us 'can not be so' (supposedly both Daily Prophet picture and in the train). Part of him also gave Sirius the benefit of doubt (no way Sirius could have betrayed James, no way)... Further, while Dumbledore kindly accepted him to school, and little Remus feels grateful and considers Albus Dumbledore as a friend, but his *other* friends went trough a great deal of trouble, learning animagi on their own for three years thus also risking themselves, their very lives (no one knew for sure that animagus can be with a werewolf safely in animal form), just so that they can *be* with their friend. Moony may feel guilty for betraying Dumbledore's trust in not telling, but I think he would have felt MORE guilty for betraying Padfoot, Prongs or Wormtail by telling. Choices... Lupin chose to honour the act of risking everything for friendship long time ago, and I believe that the memory of his animagi-friends has been the only thing that kept him from committing suicide with that gun he has... knowing that sometime someone went to so much trouble just for his sake. -- Finwitch From martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk Wed Mar 26 10:07:43 2003 From: martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk (martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 10:07:43 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New/Old Friends? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54344 Fred told us: >My question is this; Do you think that now, seeing Harry knows >who and what Mrs. Figg is, will he want to go and visit her? >I mean, after Harry has found out that Mrs. Figg is Arabella >Figg of "the old croud", and she only lives 2 blocks away. And >he was there when DD said "Sirius I need you to set off at >once. You are to alert Remus Lupin, Arabella Figg, Mundungus >Fletcher - The old croud"(page 713 US). >I would think he would want to go and find out as much as he >could. After all, it does sound like she could tell him almost >everything that happened in the past. Plus, she can tell him >what is most probable in the future. After all, she has already >lived through it once. Me: The ending of GoF blew the lid right off the conventional structure of the first four books. It seems difficult to envisage any kind of normal school year ahead. If Harry spends the summer at Privet Drive it will have to be explicitly revealed that this place has special protection: I can think of 2 or 3 places/people who would want to have Harry stay with them rather than exposed in a Muggle home. Even if we are not a party to it I can imagine the Old Crowd will hold a council of war over the summer, and will be told about Dumbeldore's protection spells at Privet Drive. As the "Witch on the Spot" Mrs Figg will doubtless have close contact with Harry. It seems likely she was placed here for this very purpose. I also expect that we will see the "Harry, I'm going to tell you everything you should have been told five years ago" scene with Dumbeldore early on in the book. My concern is that Voldemort and the DEs have been painted in such powerful terms that the Good Guys are going to have to pull some equally powerful magic out of the hat to confront them. If a dozen or fifteen DEs going around apparating at will and chucking Imperious and Avada Kedavras around with no compunction is possible, what will Dumbeldore counter that strategy with? Apart from providing a safe house I can see the Dursley's playing a less significant role in the rest of the series. Certainly the joke tensions between them and Harry have worn thin. Regards Martin "...I want to fix that in my memory for ever," said Ron, his eyes closed and an uplifted expression on his face. "Draco Malfoy, the amazing bouncing ferret..." From martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk Wed Mar 26 10:46:41 2003 From: martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk (martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 10:46:41 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New/Old Friends? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54345 >Fred told us: >My question is this; Do you think that now, seeing Harry knows >who and what Mrs. Figg is, will he want to go and visit her? >I mean, after Harry has found out that Mrs. Figg is Arabella >Figg of "the old croud", and she only lives 2 blocks away. Me again: Apologies for following my own post on this. But can someone please enlighten me on the backstory of Mrs Figg and her relationship with the Dursleys? I know she lives 2 streets away and Harry was sent to stay with her on occasions in the past when Vernon and Petunia took Dudley out and wanted to be shot of Harry. But is she just a friend, or a relative? If she is a plant by Dumbeldore as part of the protection for Harry, isn't it more than suspiciously convenient that she lives 2 streets away *and* is a friend or relative (esp the latter) prior to Harry's birth? Or has she become a friend since Harry was left on the Dursley's doorstep? Might the letter Dumbeldore left for Vernon have introduced her - in which case surely Vernon would have had nothing whatever to do with her. For there not to be a coincidence of plot-shattering proportions she must have been moved to the area by Dumbeldore at the same time Harry arrived and become friends with the Dursleys during Harry's infancy. But would the oh-so-respectable Vernon and Petunia have struck up a friendship with such an odd woman? An old crone who dotes on cats and whose house smells of cabbage? So many questions, many of which smell like a plot loophole. Regards Martin "...I want to fix that in my memory for ever," said Ron, his eyes closed and an uplifted expression on his face. "Draco Malfoy, the amazing bouncing ferret..." From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Mar 26 10:13:55 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 10:13:55 -0000 Subject: scars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54346 Felinia: > > And that's a tag remark I'll insert here: JKR tends to use a building to > exaggeration, often in threes, which is a fairly common literary device (and > one I use myself in casual conversation) - sometimes in Dumbledore's > remarks, which people then seem to take seriously. For example, this is not > a "triple whammy" example - but Dumbledore's scar that is a map of the > London Underground...casual throwaway line, and I really don't think it's > meant to go anywhere and be anything profound - just humorous that > Dumbledore would notice such a thing. :-) > > Felinia Yes well - but it *does* say something of Dumbledore: He knows all of London Underground to say that. It also allows "scars can be useful" and Harry's scar definately IS useful. Third person having (useful?) scars is Alastor Moody. I wonder what Moody's scars tell him, what alarm-bells they are (which would explain Fudges comment of having heard about curse-scar-alarm-bells before, particularly as Moody is considered as being paranoid). Supposedly Harry will meet the real Alastor Moody somewhere - St Mungos? Diagon Alley? Hogwarts? Azkaban? Hogsmeade? - and discuss scars. There's something about Harry's scar... And Sirius... I do hope he'll *finally* be free! -- Finwitch From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Mar 26 13:56:23 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 13:56:23 -0000 Subject: The Dursleys' role (was New/Old Friends?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54347 Martin wrote: > Apart from providing a safe house I can see the Dursley's playing a less > significant role in the rest of the series. Certainly the joke tensions > between them and Harry have worn thin. Au contraire, I think it will be aesthetically deeply unsatisfying is the final defeat of Voldemort does not depend in a very intimate way on some sort of reconciliation or joint action between Harry and the Dursleys, most likely Dudley. For example, to take a speculation at random, we could have a whole Heir of Gryffindor red herring involving James Potter. It would then be resolved that JP is not descended from G, and concluded that the HoG idea is itself a red herring. At the last moment it would emerge that Lily (and therefore her presumed older sister Petunia) are descended from G, and therefore Dudley *is* the HoG. I'd hate any of that to be true, because I think these heir subplots suck - they play into the hands of Voldemortian particularism - but you get the idea, I'm sure. David From siriuskase at earthlink.net Wed Mar 26 14:19:33 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 14:19:33 -0000 Subject: Can the Marauder's Map be deceived? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54348 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Edward Post" wrote: > Rowen Avalon wrote: > > >My personal conviction is that the Map has a sort of built in > >"confidentiality clause." If you don't know who someone really is, then > >they would appear on the map as whoever you thought them to be. Thus > >Scabbers would appear as Scabbers... > > >However, this doesn't apply to strangers. Since you haven't mistaken their > >identity, they will show up as their true selves. > > > But, but, but, that's not consistent with the evening where Harry got > caught in the trick step (the night Harry got naked with Moaning Myrtle)! > He looked at the map and it showed Bartemius Croach lurking around Snape's > office. If the described "confidentiality" feature had been installed, the > map would have indicated the lurker was Moody. > Polyjuice, animagus, nicknames, even a special confidentiality feature to protect the manufactures. They are all ways to confuse the map display. And I almost forgot, multiple instances of the exact same person due to timeturner tricks. Exactly how intelligent were these 4 kids. Obviously they were quite bright but is it possible that they made no mistakes at all? That they programmed in ways for the map to handle all these variances from normal behavior? So we know that the map "sees through" polyjuice becomes it identified Crouch. That doesn't imply that the map handles animagi the same way. And don't forget nicknames, if animagi has one name in animal form, another in human form, and a nickname, which name shows? My guess would be the legal name, in this case Peter, not Scabbers and not Wormtail. And since Harry doesn't know Peter, he wouldn't think about him, or if he did, he might just assume he is some old ghost lurking under Ron's bed. Peeves shows up on the map, therefore a normal ghost probably does too. And the reason that Harry doesn't see more than he needs to see is simple, the map is cluttered, Harry looks for what he is interested in and only notices other names if they are in mostly empty places where Harry wouldn't expect to see a crowd. The students are generally hanging out in crowded areas, they don't get much privacy. And Scabbers hangs out with Ron a good bit of the time, but he tends to get left behind in Gryffindor Tower when the kids sneak out at night. And while I'm at it, I'll jump ahead and answer the next post, why didn't Moony see the kids in the closet? Because he saw the kids in the hall and devoted all his attention to them. Why would he keep looking for more instances of the same people? From siriuskase at earthlink.net Wed Mar 26 14:46:14 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 14:46:14 -0000 Subject: Can the Marauder's Map be deceived? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54349 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > I don't believe that the map shows anything in the forbidden forest, > just as it apparently shows nothing of the inside of Hagrid's hut (as > inferred by Lupin's words that he watched the trio enter the hut, and > then later saw them leave, but now they were accompanied by > Pettigrew). You inferred that from Lupin's words, but they don't necessarily imply that the interior of Hagrid's hut is off limits. Lupin said just enough to indicate what he saw. You would think that if he was paying full attention, he would have noticed Hermione and Peter in the kitchen area, but he may have been just staring at the dots he cared about while his mind was occupied by other things. And the interior of Hagrids hut may have been too cluttered with the names of Hagrid's pets to be legible. > > So, Harry, Ron, and Hermione left the castle under the invisibility > cloak to see Hagrid before Buckbeak's execution, and Lupin saw them on > the map. Meanwhile, the Timeturned Harry and Hermione discuss what > Dumbledore wants them to do and then make a run for the forest, as > quickly as they can, but around behind the greenhouses because they > are afraid to be seen by someone looking out a window (PoA, Ch 21). > The Timeturned H&H leave the castle after the trio do, but arrive in > the forest just before the trio knock at Hagrid's door. Lupin doesn't > notice the timeturned pair partly because he is keeping a close eye on > the trio already, and partly because the pair are going around > another way. > > Okay. TT!H&H (that's timeturned Harry & Hermione) wait in the forest, > off the map. The trio leave Hagrid's with Scabbers, and Lupin is > watching them intently. As the Trio make their way along under the > invisibility cloak, TT!H&H wait for the right time, Harry emerges from > the forest, Harry drags Buckbeak into the cover of the trees, and they > move to another spot in the forest where they can see the Whomping > Willow. *Then* they see Ron emerge from the invisibility cloak to > chase the fleeing Scabbers. So, the only time TT!Harry leaves the > forest (to get Buckbeak), Lupin is intently watching the Trio in > astonishment since he now sees Pettigrew with them. He does not > notice an extra Harry pop out of the forest for Buckbeak. > > TT!H&H remain in their place in the forest while they watch Lupin run > into the willow, while Snape goes to Lupin's office and sees *him* > running into the willow, and while Snape himself runs into the willow. > Snape never had any opportunity to see TT!H&H at all, as long as the > forest is off the map. > > Is there any canon to say that the forest is off the map? Not really. That's right, not really, is it too farfetched to suggest that the living creatures in the forest (including the trees) all have souls and names? The Whomping Willow sure has a personality. But if the names of all the trees, Centaurs, and whatnot were on the map, the forest might as well be off the map. > I did look up the "Veritaserum" chapter of GoF to see how Crouch Jr. > described seeing his father arrive at Hogwarts on the map. Here it > is, for what it's worth: > > "For a week I waited for my father to arrive at Hogwarts. At last, > one evening, the map showed my father entering the grounds. I pulled > on my Invisibility cloak and went down to meet him. He was walking > around the edge of the forest. ..." > > So, it sounds as though Crouch Sr. never went through the forest, but > around it, which is inconclusive as far as seeing into the forest with > the map is concerned. > > And even if TT!H&H were on the map the whole time, it is completely > plausible that neither Lupin nor Snape noticed them because they were > looking very intently at something else at the time. But yes, I do > believe the map can see double. As long as there were two Harrys and > two Hermiones somewhere that the map showed, then they would all be on > the map -- just as it shows transformed animagi and people under > invisibility cloaks. Everybody is always looking intently at that map, that leads me to believe that it is hard to read. This could be due to clutter or maybe the handwriting font is difficult to read, I always imagine very tiny cursive writing for the names. They don't just jump out at you when you quickly glance at the map. > > Finally, does anyone know whether the Forbidden Forest is part of the > Hogwarts grounds or just outside of them? I would check Dumbledore's > words at the welcoming feast in PS/SS, but I can't lay my hands on > that book at the moment! That is an interesting question. I don't see how it matters in the case of the map since no one ever indicates whether the map is meant to show the entire Hogwarts property, just places of interest to the Marauders that they had been able to explore. This means that the entire Hogwarts might not be on the map They may not have ever been in the Sltheran common room or Hagrid's hut, therefore these places wouldn't be on the map, not for a privacy reason, but simply because the Marouders had never been there. You question is also relevant to the matter of apparating. If the forest was not part of Hogwarts, wouldn't there be a problem with students sneaking into the forest to apparate to somewhere they aren't supposed to be? Maybe there is, but Harry hasn't discovered that kind of mischief yet. > > Annemehr sirius kase From martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk Wed Mar 26 15:02:27 2003 From: martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk (martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 15:02:27 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Can the Marauder's Map be deceived? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54350 Annemehr asked: > Finally, does anyone know whether the Forbidden Forest is part of the > Hogwarts grounds or just outside of them? Logic tells me it must be part of the Hogwarts grounds (or estate if you will). I think the piece of land Hogwarts owns must be pretty extensive and certainly include the forest since we can't have Muggles out for a Sunday walk in the woods bumping into Centaurs can we? There has to be a Muggle-visible boundary wall on the far edge of the forest with 'Danger MoD Land' on it in big signs or some such, to keep them out. Regards Martin "...I want to fix that in my memory for ever," said Ron, his eyes closed and an uplifted expression on his face. "Draco Malfoy, the amazing bouncing ferret..." From martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk Wed Mar 26 15:27:22 2003 From: martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk (Martin) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 15:27:22 -0000 Subject: Durmstrang ship Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54351 Hello everyone One that no doubt has been discussed before although I've just spent a while trawling back through the archives and cannot find it... How did the Durmstrang ship get into Hogwarts lake if it didn't apparate there? Over to the experts. Regards Martin "...I want to fix that in my memory for ever," said Ron, his eyes closed and an uplifted expression on his face. "Draco Malfoy, the amazing bouncing ferret..." From tminton at deckerjones.com Wed Mar 26 15:44:03 2003 From: tminton at deckerjones.com (Tonya Minton) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 09:44:03 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Circular room on the cover Message-ID: <43716000B5B3D6119934006097E4668C20E5C2@djmail.deckerjones.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54352 Snip now me: Could the room be the room where the wand weighing was held?? I don't have the cannon on me the find the reference to that room can someone check?? Tonya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tminton at deckerjones.com Wed Mar 26 15:44:35 2003 From: tminton at deckerjones.com (Tonya Minton) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 09:44:35 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New/Old Friends? Message-ID: <43716000B5B3D6119934006097E4668C20E5C3@djmail.deckerjones.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54353 Snip Steve (bboy) wrote re Mrs Figg: now me: I agree, I don't think Harry knows yet!! It will be really interesting to find out more about her and her role!! Tonya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 26 16:01:56 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 16:01:56 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? and Why I hate the H/G Ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54354 Martin wrote: > [long and interesting discussion snipped] > All I see at the moment is: Ron (has crush on) Hermione (has crush > on) Harry (has crush on) Cho. Ron's interest in Hermione is mainly > hormonal I think and Ron's not sussed it out yet, is even fighting > it. Hermione is slowly realising her feelings for Harry go deeper > than respect/friendship. Harry appears to have a basic > teenager hormonal thing for Cho and is possibly thinking about it. Do you really see it like that? What are your proofs that Hermione is slowly realizing she has deeper feelings for Harry? All I have are the fact that all throughout PoA she was constantly grabbing Harry's arm and she gives Harry a kiss on the cheek at the end of GoF. These are what make me see Hermione slowly realizing her feelings for Harry. Yet, I see she likes Ron because she tells him, after their Yule Ball argument, to not leave her as last resort when there's another ball (or something to that effect). I quickly went into denial after reading that because I didn't want to believe she liked him back. I used the excuse that she meant for Ron to ask her to the ball next time so they wouldn't be having such a heated argument. (I bet she hates arguing with him all the time). But Harry, unlike Ron, got the point. What's the point? That Ron likes Hermione and shouldn't waste time? That she likes Ron as well? If this is what Harry thought, what if Harry is wrong? He has been wrong about other things. (We can't always take character's words to heart, but we have no choice because theirs is the only words we have.) Harry didn't listen to the argument so who knows what Hermione really meant when she said what she said. Oh I'd like to point out that, iirc, Hermione in the TwiWizard Tournament was shocked at the way *both* Harry and Ron were acting towards the veelas and pulled down Harry (can't remember if she pulled down Ron afterwards). Harry for some reason doesn't react to them after that, but Ron does making Hermione scowl at Ron all the time. I believe if Harry were acting the same way Ron did, she'd scowl at him, too, but he's "immuned" to the veelas now for some reason. It seems she gets upset at Ron because Ron is looking at outer beauty and not inner beauty. Which brings about that whole argument about Eloise. Ron doesn't see that she's a nice person just that her nose is all screwed up so he doesn't want to go to the ball with her. Ron knows Hermione's a nice person, but doesn't realize he likes her until he realizes she's a girl. Notice how he's jealous after realizing she is a pretty girl and she has a date for the ball. Ron and Harry are your typical teenage boys so, of course, they'll both be hormonal, but I believe Harry knows that looks are deceiving unlike Ron. Greicy From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 26 16:24:39 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 16:24:39 -0000 Subject: New/Old Friends? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54355 > Fred told us: > >My question is this; Do you think that now, seeing Harry knows > >who and what Mrs. Figg is, will he want to go and visit her? > >I mean, after Harry has found out that Mrs. Figg is Arabella > >Figg of "the old croud", and she only lives 2 blocks away. And > >he was there when DD said "Sirius I need you to set off at > >once. You are to alert Remus Lupin, Arabella Figg, Mundungus > >Fletcher - The old croud"(page 713 US). > >I would think he would want to go and find out as much as he > >could. After all, it does sound like she could tell him almost > >everything that happened in the past. Plus, she can tell him > >what is most probable in the future. After all, she has already > >lived through it once. > Martin wrote: >snip> >As the "Witch on the Spot" Mrs Figg will doubtless have close >contact with Harry. It seems likely she was placed here for this >very purpose. I also expect that we will see the "Harry, I'm going >to tell you everything you should have been told five years ago" >scene with Dumbeldore early on in the book. >My concern is that Voldemort and the DEs have been painted in such >powerful terms that the Good Guys are going to have to pull some >equally powerful magic out of the hat to confront them. If a dozen >or fifteen DEs going around apparating at will and chucking >Imperious and Avada Kedavras around with no compunction is >possible, what will Dumbeldore counter that strategy with? >Apart from providing a safe house I can see the Dursley's playing a >less significant role in the rest of the series. Certainly the joke >tensions between them and Harry have worn thin. I don't think Harry has put two and two together. I don't think he's realized that Mrs. Figg is *the* Arabella Figg. Maybe Harry only knows Mrs. Figg as just that, Mrs. Figg and not Mrs. Arabella Figg. (Wonder who she married?) I don't know if she'll be the one to tell him everything that has happened, especially since our only sneak-peek is Dumbledore saying that he's going to tell him everything. I'm assuming that will happen when he gets to school. Hopefully, in the beginning so we don't go crazy. Now that you mentioned what kind of powers will the Old Crowd use against V and the DE's (sounds like a r&b group), I can't wait to find out what they could be! In regards to the Dursleys, I think they will have a bigger role in the upcoming series. I'm hoping that they'll finally tell Harry about his parents and family, the protection on the house and ask for forgiveness. =) There's more to them than just annoyance. Martin wrote: >But can someone please enlighten me on the backstory of Mrs Figg >and her relationship with the Dursleys? We're just as clueless as you are. But the suggestions you made are on point: 1) Is she just a friend, or a relative? 2) Planted by Dumbeldore as part of the protection for Harry? 3) Or has she become a friend since Harry was left on the Dursley's doorstep? 4)The letter Dumbeldore left for Vernon have introduced her - in which case surely Vernon would have had nothing whatever to do with her. I'm going with 2 and 3 together here. It seems to be more logical. Question is how did she introduce herself and convince the Dursley's to let her watch Harry? Did she show fondness for him and they thought, "Perfect, someone who actually likes the prat. Let's have her watch him." In any case, aren't they afraid Mrs. Figg would find out their "secret". Didn't the Dursley's worry that Harry would act abnormal at Mrs. Figg's house? So much that she'd start to question Harry's behavior. I wonder what was written in that letter and if the Dursley's are ever going to tell Harry or is it part of Dumbledore's speech? I wonder if the Dursley's went to James and Lily's funeral? Greicy, who wonders too much From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 26 16:28:30 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 16:28:30 -0000 Subject: The Dursleys' role (was New/Old Friends?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54356 David wrote: >Au contraire, I think it will be aesthetically deeply unsatisfying >is the final defeat of Voldemort does not depend in a very intimate >way on some sort of reconciliation or joint action between Harry >and the Dursleys, most likely Dudley. >For example, to take a speculation at random, we could have a whole >Heir of Gryffindor red herring involving James Potter. It would >then be resolved that JP is not descended from G, and concluded >that the HoG idea is itself a red herring. At the last moment it >would emerge that Lily (and therefore her presumed older sister Petunia) are descended from G, and therefore Dudley *is* the HoG. >I'd hate any of that to be true, because I think these heir >subplots suck - they play into the hands of Voldemortian >particularism - but you get the idea, I'm sure. Hold up!? *If* Lily is the Heir to Gryffindor, or any of the other houses, how would Dudley be the Heir if he's a muggle. Harry would have more rights wouldn't he? I wouldn't mind an Heir plot, so long as there's a twist and knowing JKR there will be. Greicy From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Mar 26 16:39:33 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 11:39:33 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? and Why I hate the H/G Ship Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54357 In a message dated 3/26/2003 10:05:13 AM Central Standard Time, grace701 at yahoo.com writes: > Do you really see it like that? What are your proofs that Hermione > is slowly realizing she has deeper feelings for Harry? All I have > are the fact that all throughout PoA she was constantly grabbing > Harry's arm and she gives Harry a kiss on the cheek at the end of > GoF. These are what make me see Hermione slowly realizing her > feelings for Harry. Greicy For me its less the cheek kiss and more Krum telling Harry that Hermione?s always talking to him (Krum) about Harry. I think that the kiss might be more of a wake up call to Harry (she'd never done that before). I don't think that there is anyone at Hogwarts with whom Hermione can just be a 14 year old girl. I can't picture her sitting around the dorm with Parvati or Lavender, giving each other manicures and facials and prattling on about Harry. I can't even see her doing it with the older girls (Angelina, Katie or Alicia). She'd be too self-conscious. That's why, I believe, she did so with Victor. He was "safe." He wasn't a Hogwarts student, he was only going to be in the UK for a short length of time, he was older and most importantly he didn't know Harry personally so was much less likely, from her POV, to run tell Harry that she talks about him constantly. Of course she didn't know that poor Victor would develop a crush on her and go straight to Harry. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 26 16:50:37 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 16:50:37 -0000 Subject: Circular room on the cover In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54358 GKJPO wrote: > As I was going through GoF (for the gagillionth time) last night, > the word "circular" caught my eye. There's been a lot of > speculation on which is the special room that Harry doesn't know > the magical properties of yet and there's a picture of a room on > the American version of the cover. Are they the same? I don't > know, but it looked to me like the room on the cover is circular, > so I started going back through and identifying the circular rooms >mentioned in the book. I found the following: > > - The Gryffindor common room > - Dumbledore's office > - The Divination classroom (the room, the tables and the trapdoor > are circular) > I looked back through the references to these rooms and noted that > none of them mentioned having other doors in them (like you see on > the cover) or candles there on a regular basis though I would > guess that the common room would have the doors to the > dormitories. I agree, the room is circular and it seems to me that it is in a tower because I see the top of the page as though the room is rising up and boards going up as well. (Even my mother said right away it's a tower.) The Gryffindor common room is a tower. So is the Astronomy room. Is Trelawney's class in a tower? We don't know anything about the Astronomy room so it may contain 3 doors. The Gryffindor Common Room has three doors: one to the girls' dormitories, another to the boys' and the entrance to the common room. This is all we know of so far about the common room. Unless there's a hidden door conveniently behind a picture which is in between both doors. Do we know of anything in between these two doors? Are the two doors next to each other? (Shame my memory is bad). Why would there be candles in the Gryffindor Common Room? Maybe it's not the common room. How about this idea? Harry sees the hidden door behind the picture and goes up through it, finding a secret magical room that is filled of candles and has three doors leading to who knows where. Maybe what JKR meant by Harry discovering magical properties to a room is that he will discover that the room is connect to another magical room/world? Greicy From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 26 17:04:03 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 17:04:03 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? and Why I hate the H/G Ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54359 I wrote: > Do you really see it like that? What are your proofs that > Hermione > is slowly realizing she has deeper feelings for Harry? All I have > are the fact that all throughout PoA she was constantly grabbing > Harry's arm and she gives Harry a kiss on the cheek at the end of > GoF. These are what make me see Hermione slowly realizing her > feelings for Harry. > > Greicy Melissa wrote: >For me its less the cheek kiss and more Krum telling Harry that >Hermione's always talking to him (Krum) about Harry. I think that >the kiss might be more of a wake up call to Harry (she'd never done >that before). >I don't think that there is anyone at Hogwarts with whom Hermione >can just be a 14 year old girl. I can't picture her sitting around >the dorm with Parvati or Lavender, giving each other manicures and >facials and prattling on about Harry. I can't even see her doing it >with the older girls (Angelina, Katie or Alicia). She'd be too self- >conscious. >That's why, I believe, she did so with Victor. He was "safe." He >wasn't a Hogwarts student, he was only going to be in the UK for a >short length of time, he was older and most importantly he didn't >know Harry personally so was much less likely, from her POV, to run >tell Harry that she talks about him constantly. Of course she >didn't know that poor Victor would develop a crush on her and go >straight to Harry. > > Melissa > > Of course, how could I forget about the topic at hand. Why did Hermione talk so much about Harry to the point Krum had to confront him?! You're reasoning makes more than a lot of sense. I can see Hermione feeling relieved to be able to talk about Harry to someone who doesn't know him and would never get to personally know him. Not knowing that poor Krum would confront Harry about it because Krum is crazy for the girl. And she never finds out that he did, does she? Crouch conveniently came along so Harry's main concern was getting Dumbledore and that's that. And he didn't want to say anything because Ron would get jealous? Is that right? Greicy, who loves Troels danish proverb as well =) From fausts at attglobal.net Wed Mar 26 17:28:40 2003 From: fausts at attglobal.net (anguaorc) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 17:28:40 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54360 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > .What the heart is full of, the mouth spills over with> Here's a situation that proverb explains even more beautifully: "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a last resort!" Hermione talking about Harry "very much" is fully and sufficiently explained by Harry: "Yeah, because we're FRIENDS." *Viktor* accepts Harry's explanation: Viktor, the one who knows exactly how much Hermione actually talked about Harry and how much, if any, she talked about Ron; Viktor, the jealous, suspicious, grumpy one. If he can accept it, I think we should be able to stretch our minds and accept it too. A friend talking about a friend for some reason other than being secretly in love with him? Amazing, but it could happen! A friend giving a friend a farewell kiss on the cheek simply to show support because he's been through hell and is about to go through hell again? It's not out of the realm of possibility! A girl getting to know Harry well as a close friend, and not falling head over heels in love with him? Yes, even that can occur! JKR has given Hermione several of the little tell-tale signs that writers give their audiences when a person likes a person as more than a friend: She seems to be jealous about Ron's crush on Fleur and takes a strong dislike to the girl. She questions Ron indignantly on his preference for inviting pretty girls to the Yule Ball. She seems to feel hurt and offended when Ron doesn't ask her except as a last resort. In an extremity of temper, she demands that Ron ask her to the next Ball. She blushes a lot when talking to Ron about her love life. Those are CLUES -- clues that we have seen before in thousands of novels, movies, and plays. JKR has failed to give Hermione any of those little tell-tale signs when it comes to Harry, despite clear and obvious opportunities: She seems not to be jealous about Harry's crush on Cho or take any dislike to Cho. She betrays no curiousity or interest about Harry's preference or intentions for the Yule Ball, even though the subject is introduced three times in her presence. She shows not the slightest hint of hurt or offense that Harry never invites her. She never hints in any way that Harry should ask her out in the future. She does not blush when talking to Harry about her love life, and she does not blush or show signs of embarrassment when her name is publicly linked to Harry's or when she publicly kisses Harry. She shows no trace whatsoever of any hurt or disappointment when Harry firmly and repeatedly denies that she is his girlfriend. These are clues as well -- negative clues. Clues to tell us that Hermione *doesn't* like Harry that way. Clues that they are indeed, as JKR plainly said, "very platonic friends." It seems to me that to maintain otherwise is the result of a stubborn romanticising and eroticising impulse. Angua From siriuskase at earthlink.net Wed Mar 26 17:39:56 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 17:39:56 -0000 Subject: Circular room on the cover In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54361 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: > GKJPO wrote: > > As I was going through GoF (for the gagillionth time) last night, > > the word "circular" caught my eye. There's been a lot of > > speculation on which is the special room that Harry doesn't know > > the magical properties of yet and there's a picture of a room on > > the American version of the cover. Are they the same? I don't > > know, but it looked to me like the room on the cover is circular, > > so I started going back through and identifying the circular rooms > >mentioned in the book. I found the following: > > > > - The Gryffindor common room > > - Dumbledore's office > > - The Divination classroom (the room, the tables and the trapdoor > > are circular) > > > I looked back through the references to these rooms and noted that > > none of them mentioned having other doors in them (like you see on > > the cover) or candles there on a regular basis though I would > > guess that the common room would have the doors to the > > dormitories. > > > I agree, the room is circular and it seems to me that it is in a > tower because I see the top of the page as though the room is rising > up and boards going up as well. (Even my mother said right away > it's a tower.) The Gryffindor common room is a tower. So is the > Astronomy room. Is Trelawney's class in a tower? We don't know > anything about the Astronomy room so it may contain 3 doors. The > Gryffindor Common Room has three doors: one to the girls' > dormitories, another to the boys' and the entrance to the common > room. This is all we know of so far about the common room. Unless > there's a hidden door conveniently behind a picture which is in > between both doors. Do we know of anything in between these two > doors? Are the two doors next to each other? (Shame my memory is > bad). Why would there be candles in the Gryffindor Common Room? > Maybe it's not the common room. > > How about this idea? Harry sees the hidden door behind the picture > and goes up through it, finding a secret magical room that is filled > of candles and has three doors leading to who knows where. > > Maybe what JKR meant by Harry discovering magical properties to a > room is that he will discover that the room is connect to another > magical room/world? > > Greicy I'm with someone's mom who says it is a tower. All the round rooms that we've met so far are tower room, but I don't know if all towers are round. We don't know what shape the Owlery or the Astronomy towers are for example. In fact we know nothing at all about the Astronomy tower other than it is the tallest part of the school. My favorite idea so far is that it is the Owlery. For some reason, Harry goes up there at night and there are no owls. they've all gone out to get a bite to eat I guess, Harry's never been up there at night before, so he's never noticed that at night, it's lit with candles. Everytime he's been here before, he's been preoccupied with his correspondence, but this time, it is so different that he looks at the room itself. And it does make sense that the Owlery would have doors for the owls to get out. sirius kase From siriuskase at earthlink.net Wed Mar 26 17:54:08 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 17:54:08 -0000 Subject: Durmstrang ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54362 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Martin" wrote: > Hello everyone > > One that no doubt has been discussed before although I've just spent > a while trawling back through the archives and cannot find it... > > How did the Durmstrang ship get into Hogwarts lake if it didn't > apparate there? > > Over to the experts. > > Regards > Martin > "...I want to fix that in my memory for ever," said Ron, his eyes > closed and an uplifted expression on his face. "Draco Malfoy, the > amazing bouncing ferret..." I don't this it has been discussed very much. A recent thread about the lake my have said something, but I suspect navigable underground tunnels. Aren't some of the lochs in Scotland connected by natural tunnels. sirius kase From martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk Wed Mar 26 17:06:00 2003 From: martin.soilleux-cardwell at aon.co.uk (Martin) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 17:06:00 -0000 Subject: New/Old Friends? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54363 Greicy wrote: > Question is how did she introduce herself and convince the Dursley's > to let her watch Harry? Did she show fondness for him and they > thought, "Perfect, someone who actually likes the prat. Let's have > her watch him." In any case, aren't they afraid Mrs. Figg would > find out their "secret". Didn't the Dursley's worry that Harry > would act abnormal at Mrs. Figg's house? So much that she'd start > to question Harry's behavior. Right. She seems a harmless enough old coot to them, a bit of an old dear who doubtless spends a good deal of time chatting over the garden fence. Imagine what she'd chat to her neighbours about though if she came in from hanging out the washing to find toddler Harry crawling about the lounge carpet and all her cats turned purple. Would the Dursleys risk the shame and embarrassment? Regards Martin "...I want to fix that in my memory for ever," said Ron, his eyes closed and an uplifted expression on his face. "Draco Malfoy, the amazing bouncing ferret..." From BEANNEBOY1 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Mar 26 17:29:29 2003 From: BEANNEBOY1 at HOTMAIL.COM (beanneboy) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 17:29:29 -0000 Subject: Durmstrang ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54364 martin wrote: > Hello everyone > > One that no doubt has been discussed before although I've just spent > a while trawling back through the archives and cannot find it... > > How did the Durmstrang ship get into Hogwarts lake if it didn't > apparate there? I am resonably new so I am not sure on the kind of theories you all may of come up with, but could it not work on the floo powder principles but with ships and water. Not floo powder but something that enables a ship to cover large distances very quickley, via water and not fire places. I know this is weak but the idea came right out of the top of my head. let me know what you think.. lee From jizzkitty420 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 26 17:05:18 2003 From: jizzkitty420 at yahoo.com (Giselle Sicle) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 09:05:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Circular room on the cover In-Reply-To: <43716000B5B3D6119934006097E4668C20E5C2@djmail.deckerjones.com> Message-ID: <20030326170518.30279.qmail@web13113.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54365 Tonya Minton wrote:Snip IMO it is the asronomy room. #1" it is a room Harry is familiar with. #2: it is a room the reader knows about but has yet to "see" it. and finally #3: perhaps the candles are part of the "undiscovered" magical qualities it contains. Giselle From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Mar 26 18:24:08 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 18:24:08 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Dursleys' role (was New/Old Friends?) References: Message-ID: <3E81F048.000001.26555@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 54366 Greicy wrote - Hold up!? *If* Lily is the Heir to Gryffindor, or any of the other houses, how would Dudley be the Heir if he's a muggle. Harry would have more rights wouldn't he? I wouldn't mind an Heir plot, so long as there's a twist and knowing JKR there will be. Me - This is my second attempt at this *glares at computer* so please point out any jumps in my logic. Having typed it all once I may accidentally skip a few points this time. Firstly - if the Heir is a descendent then Petunia would be the Heir not Lily as she is the older sister, that's the point. Therefore it wuld pass to her son not Lily's. However, I prefer the idea that the Heir is not genetic but spiritual. the Heir of each founder is the person in each generation that is closest to the spirit of the founder in question, the person closest to their ideal. As such i believe that someone *cough*Tom*cough* could be the heir of a House when younger but as they mature grow away from the ideals of the founder and cease to be considered the Heir. This is important to my view of the world because I don't see Salazar as necessarily being a bad guy so it would be nice if I could square that opinion with his Heir growing up to be Voldemort. I don't think we really know enough about Salazar to say whether he could be considered a good guy or a bad guy. We know he built the CoS and that he fought with Goderic over allowing muggleborns to enter Hogwarts. We know that he considered them to be less than purebloods and/or a threat. But we've never been told that he ever tried to kill anyone and from all we know after he fought with Goderic and left the school he didn't come back and cause trouble. Since the ww is secret from muggles, muggleborns are by their very existance a threat. It's not that they know about the ww per se but the fact that their muggle relatives know about it. The more people know about something the more likely it is that it will be revealed to the wrong person As such trying to get muggleborns stopped from going to Hogwarts is understandble. We also know that he constructed the Chamber with its resident monster and set it up so his Heir could open it but we don't actually know under what circumstances he intended it to use (and while he set it up so that you needed certain abilities to open it there's nothing limiting its use to his Heir after all Harry gains entry to it). Since he viewed muggleborns and muggles as some kind of threat (and who wouldn't, humans do have a nasty history of persecuting elements of society that differ from the 'norm') the Basilisk could well have been some kind of last ditch defense mechanism. Umm yeah sorry back to my original point. Harry is told that 'only a true Gryffindor' could pull the sword out of the hat (or something along those lines) now that could well make him the Heir of Gryffindor - not because of any rumoured line of descent between him and Goderic but because he embodies the ideal of what Goderic saw as being the perfect Gyffindor. Maybe if he survives the war with Voldemort he won't still embody those ideals when he is as old as Dsumbledore (after all we all change) but for that moment in time he was a 'true Gryffindor' and therefore the heir .... K From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 26 18:24:01 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 18:24:01 -0000 Subject: What Can Apparate? (WAS: Durmstrang ship) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54367 Martin asked: > How did the Durmstrang ship get into Hogwarts lake if it didn't > apparate there? Now me: I have absolutely no idea, but your question leads me to wonder about whether ships, or any other inanimate object for that matter, can apparate. IIRC, every time there's a reference to someone or something apparating, it's a solo wizard. Wizards apparate while holding other objects (the salesmen at the QWC, for example), but can wizards apparate and take their surrounding vehicle (like a ship or car) with them to their new location? ~Phyllis From oppen at mycns.net Wed Mar 26 06:14:05 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 00:14:05 -0600 Subject: Language point that may have been missed Message-ID: <000601c2f3c7$6971c3a0$1d560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 54368 I was just rereading GoF to keep off the pangs from knowing OoP is coming out soon, and noticed something. _Even when Fleur Delacour is talking to Madame Maxime or Gabrielle,_ she continues to speak English, albeit wiz an 'orrible French ack-sent. When the other three champs find out that Harry's a champion too, Fleur says to Madame Maxime something about "zis little boy" competing. Later on, even in a very stressful situation, when she's speaking to her sister whom she'd given up for dead in the lake, she's speaking English. "It was ze grindylows..." Is this a Flint? From jodel at aol.com Wed Mar 26 18:46:52 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 13:46:52 EST Subject: Pettigrew/Wormtail Message-ID: <12c.269fe4ca.2bb34f9c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54369 >>I believe it was important to Voldemort to keep his identity hidden, especially from Barty Crouch Jr., who, in his own words, has stated: "if there's one thing I hate more than any other, it's a Death Eater who walked free." Pettigrew walked free,<< But Pettigrew didn't walk free. He was in hiding, not even able to resume human form for 12 years. That my sound more comfortable than being put under Imperius and hidden under an invisibility cloak, but it is really just about a toss-up as regards limitations. I'd say that Pettigrew is now "Wormtail" because it suits Voldemort very well for everyone to go on believing that Pettigrew is dead. The less the *name* Pettigrew is bandied about, the less likely it is that someone will let the information slip. There isn't really all that much secrecy over Wormtail's identity. The DEs know that "Wormtail" is presumed to be a dead man. For that matter, among the whole gathering in the graveyard, Wormtail was the only DE who was NOT masked. He is 12 years older and has had some rough handling since anyone last saw him, but he isn't unrecognizable. His usefullness as a spy is over, there is no reason to protect his identity among the ranks. But Voldy does not want any questions raised outside the circle about the possible continued existence of the wizard once known as Peter Pettigrew. Pettigrew is a dead man. Wormtail is a Death Eater in reasonably good standing. Refering to him only as Wormtail is what their Master intends. It's a psychological ploy. As to the name Wormtail. I seriously doubt that the Marauders ever publically refered to each other by their nicknames. In face, I strongly suspect that the Moony, Wormtail Padfoot and Prongs names were invented as aliases specifically for the purpose of claiming credit for the Map. They may have used the nicknames among themselves afterwards, but I think the Map came first. None of those names were known about the school (although it is possible that Snape managed to discover them. Snape is good at learning things other people would rather he not know) The only people Pettigrew believes to have any reason to regignize that name are Black and Lupin, and they aren't here. -JOdel From amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 26 18:54:48 2003 From: amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk (amy_marblefeet) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 18:54:48 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ernie and Hannah (was Re: SHIP: Why I dislike H/G) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54370 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: > So what do you think of Ernie and Hannah? I think there's something > going on. At least, they'd be the only ones who are totally sure of > their feelings for each other while everyone else is running around > being confused or/and hormonal. Even though we've only heard of > them, say 4 times, throughout the books, they seem like a nice > shipping couple. ;) I love shiping this couple. I always quote the fact, in GoF, over Christmas, in Hogsmead they were seen swaping Chocolate Frog cards. I feel that these two will be the first "couple" of Harrys year. We'll get to see Harrys view of dating girls with out him actually having any relationships himself. Amy (only 87 days to go) From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Mar 26 20:02:01 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 15:02:01 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? Message-ID: <1c3.7329982.2bb36139@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54371 In a message dated 3/26/2003 11:30:10 AM Central Standard Time, fausts at attglobal.net writes: Why on earth could she be angry? Hmmm perhaps because she's just been accused AGAIN of betraying Harry. ? Harry, the one she stood by when Ron was having his snit (jealousy . . betrayal what ever you call it).? Harry, the one that she's been doing her darnedest to help stay alive for 4 years. I'd be angry too.. . in fact if I were in her place, Ron would have hex marks in places he didn't even know existed! >>> Actually JKR hasn't failed, she's cloaked them quite nicely. Sort of like the way that Snape/Quirrell seemed to be connected in such a way that it looked as though Snape were the guilty party. It was obvious that Snape wasn't guilty but not quite so obvious that Quirrell was. All of those instances of blushing ect you quote also took place when Harry was there. As for her not being hurt over his denials. She sounds hurt to me with her "just ignore it/them."? And she knows (in the all encompassing way that students at Hogwarts seem to know everything) that Cho/Cedric are a couple, she's too practical to be jealous of an apparently established couple >> Or perhaps its just a stubborn ability to see though the obvious and into the subtle? . . . .something that's definitely a blessing with JKR's writing style. ? I admit when I first read all 4 books in March of last year (hey I just realized its been a year to the week) I definitely saw R/Hr, then on reading them I began to compare the way that she's foreshadowed them to the way that she foreshadowed everything else major and its just doesn't mesh with the writing style she's shown thus far.? Melissa . . what's wrong with romance and eroticism. ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Mar 26 20:04:04 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (pennylin) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 14:04:04 -0600 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? References: Message-ID: <049601c2f3d2$da9a9240$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 54372 Hi -- --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > .What the heart is full of, the mouth spills over with> Angua said: <<>>>>>>>> LOL! Well, possibly. I think I'd rely more on the heart being true on a day-to-day basis ("Hermioninny talks about you all the time") more than a statement made in anger and hurt. But, that's a fair shot. :--) <<<<>>>>>>>>>>>> You mean, Viktor, the one who doesn't, as far we know, feel the least bit threatened by Ron as a romantic rival? The Viktor who *does* regard Harry as a romantic rival? The Viktor who is older and more experienced in these matters? Yeah, okay. I'll trust Viktor -- Harry says there's nothing going on and Viktor believes him. Viktor does not apparently show any signs of thinking her other best friend is any threat to him though, now does he? :--) <<>>>>> Possible, sure. <<>>>>>> Yep, that's one possible interpretation. No doubt about it. <<<>>>>>>> You got it backwards. She takes a strong dislike to Fleur from the start ....... way before she notices Ron's reaction. She *arguably* seems annoyed about Ron's crush on Fleur. <<<>>>>>> Wouldn't you? Harry doesn't engage in this churlish behavior, so I'm not the least surprised that she doesn't express any problems with Harry's dating choices. <<<>>>>> :::coughs:::: Um, you might want to remind me of your logic on that one? She seems utterly delighted that Ron is dateless and in a real fix (serves him right, that cad). At that point, *she* already has a date. Doesn't seem too hurt and offended to me. She is certain *offended* that he would think she was dateless and sitting around waiting on him or anyone else. Can't blame her there either -- again, Ron's being a cad. Since she accepted Krum's invitation, I see no evidence that she was sitting around passively pining away for Ron or Harry. So, the above statement seems really a tad strong, IMHO. <<<>>>>>> LOL! Oh, c'mon. *Demands*???! IMHO, she's saying "*If* you ask me to the next ball other than as a last resort, I *might* think about it." <<<>>>>>> Harry's there too, don't forget. We don't know who the blushes are meant for. I still suspect the blushes are nothing more than a young teenage girl who really doesn't want to talk about her love life with her male best friends. But, even assuming that the blushes are telling, there's no way to say for sure who she might be blushing about. <<<>>>>>>>> She already has a date. :::shrugs:::: Again, I don't see her pining away after either Harry or Ron. I just think her heart is betraying her preferences to Krum, inadvertently (or as Melissa says, she feels that Krum is "safe"). <<<<<>>>>>> She's also not hurt that Ron didn't invite her. She's offended that he tried to get her as a last-minute last-ditch date, but who wouldn't be, really? Why must her being offended necessarily mean that she's secretly in love with Ron? Why can't it just be evidence of Hermione's burgeoning feminism? Hmm? <<<>>>>>>> She doesn't *hint* that to Ron either. She angrily tells him if he's got a problem with her going with Krum to the ball, then maybe he'd better ask her first next time and not as a last resort. Not exactly coy and flirty, is she? :--) <<>>>>>> Sure she does. See above. <<<<>>> Of course not ------ she might feel she doesn't stand a chance with him and is doing a good job of covering up (slip-up with Krum, of course). <<>>>>>> I can only think of one time that he does so in her presence and that's when he tells Mrs. Weasley. Of course, maybe it's deliberate that JKR didn't pan back to Hermione to show her reaction in that instance? You're right that if JKR wanted, she could have planted a clue there. But, then again, maybe it's authorial misdirection. Maybe. It's possible. <<<<>>>>>>>> Again, that interview quote relates to GoF. She didn't say "they are and always will be very platonic friends." <<<>>>>>>> Wow. So, that's what a great number of shippers are guilty of, is it? You realize that the H/H ship is probably about the same size as R/H ship at this point? All these people are just insane and stubborn and unwilling to see the One True Light? Really? We all have different interpretations. I don't think the R/H'ers are crazy; I just don't agree with them. I would also note that even if Ron and Hermione pair off in Book 5, there are 2 more books and a likely epilogue yet to go. Penny ===== Will I see you at Nimbus - 2003? http://www.hp2003.org/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jizzkitty420 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 26 19:25:47 2003 From: jizzkitty420 at yahoo.com (Giselle Sicle) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 11:25:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Language point that may have been missed In-Reply-To: <000601c2f3c7$6971c3a0$1d560043@hppav> Message-ID: <20030326192547.57586.qmail@web13105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54373 Eric Oppen wrote:I was just rereading GoF to keep off the pangs from knowing OoP is coming out soon, and noticed something. _Even when Fleur Delacour is talking to Madame Maxime or Gabrielle,_ she continues to speak English, albeit wiz an 'orrible French ack-sent. When the other three champs find out that Harry's a champion too, Fleur says to Madame Maxime something about "zis little boy" competing. Later on, even in a very stressful situation, when she's speaking to her sister whom she'd given up for dead in the lake, she's speaking English. "It was ze grindylows..." Is this a Flint? Eric, perhaps it is not a flint but literary help to us English speaking people. If JKR were to have written all of Fleur's "lines" in French, half of the readers would not be able to understand, but that's just my pinion. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54374 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > Martin asked: > > > How did the Durmstrang ship get into Hogwarts lake if it didn't > > apparate there? > > Now me: > > I have absolutely no idea, but your question leads me to wonder about > whether ships, or any other inanimate object for that matter, can > apparate. ...edited... > > ~Phyllis bboy_mn: Apparation: My theory is that you can apparate with anything you can possess. For example, you possess your clothes, so when you apparate, they come with you. Better example- If you are sitting in a chair and apparate the chair stays behind, because, while you are using it, you do not possess it. On the other hand, if you pick the chair up and hold it while you apparate, you do then possess it and it apparates with you. My guess is that the vendors at the World Cup cast a tranfer charm and apparated at the same time, or at nearly the same time. Remember all magic is modified by the intend of the person casting the magic, so if your intent is that the chair you are sitting on, then you could force it to come with you, but I think that is the exception rather than the rule. That is, it would take a forced effort. Transfer Charm: We have seen many examples of what, for lack of a better name, I call Transfer Charms. Dumbledore transfers hundreds of squashy sleeping bags from where ever they are stored to the Great Hall. Dumbledore transfers tea and cakes to Hagrid's hut. Since things that are conjured are not permanent, I have to assume that, in these examples, Dumbledore tranferred the objects rather than creating them; sleeping bags transferred from storage, and tea and cakes transferred from the kitchen. Also, food is transferred from the tables in the kitchen to the tables in the Great Hall. It's possible that some variation of a Transfer Charm is the standard method of shipping goods. Like shipping books to the book store. The books are transferred from the warehouse, immediately after a delivery wizard apparates to the bookstore and has the store manager sign for the deliver of books. Water Travel: Someone else suggested the idea of water travel in the same sense as fire travel. Now all we need is a good name for it. A name with a double meaning like 'Floo' which means both 'flue' as in a fireplace chimney flue and 'flew' as in what it feels like to travel by Floo powder. So what would a good double meaning word be for Water Travel? Floa Powered maybe (floa = flow)? Just one man's opinion. bboy_mn From mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 26 20:29:41 2003 From: mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com (Edward Post) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 15:29:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Language point that may have been missed Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54375 Eric Oppen stated and asked: > >I was just rereading GoF to keep off the pangs from knowing OoP is coming >out soon, and noticed something. _Even when Fleur Delacour is > talking to >Madame Maxime or Gabrielle,_ she continues to speak English, albeit wiz an >'orrible French ack-sent. > >When the other three champs find out that Harry's a champion too, Fleur >says to Madame Maxime something about "zis little boy" competing. Later >on, even in a very stressful situation, when she's > speaking to her sister >whom she'd given up for dead in the lake, she's speaking English. "It was >ze grindylows..." > >Is this a Flint? Mr. Ed replies: I don't think it's a blatant mistake -- and I think you're overlooking one incident, in particular. Take a look again at the scene immediately after Harry is named Champion -- and the Head Masters and Bagman and Crouch (and I think McGonnigal, too) are 'discussing' things. I think just after Dumbledore asks Madame Maxime to join him for a night-cap, she exits with Fleur -- and JKR states they're speaking to each other in F***** (by Congressional Directive, us 'Muricuns ain't sposed to say that language's name, e.g., "Freedom Fries") Monsieur Ed _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Wed Mar 26 20:33:25 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 14:33:25 -0600 Subject: Filk: Azkaban Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54376 To the tune of "Africa" by Toto Scene: Sirius Black is sitting in his cell, shivering and listening to the howls of the other inmates. Suddenly, drums and guitars start playing as he looks up to see Minister Fudge outside the door. Sirius: I hear the screams echoing tonight Just because the inmates can't hold cogent conversation. And Fudge comes in to view my plight And hands to me the paper that will guide me toward salvation. I see an old rat upon the Ron, who's hoping to find some chance to find his boss and kill the Potter boy. And in my sleep I mumble on, "Hurry man, he's waiting there for you." Sirius transforms into a dog and, slipping out of his cell, swims to shore. As he surfaces, he howls (in English) It really took a lot to get me away from you. It's something that no other prisoners could ever do. I left Dementors down in Azkaban. Gonna save the kid and kill the rat the Weasley had. Padfoot stalks down Magnolia Crescent, hoping to get a glimpse of Harry. As he spots the boy lugging his luggage, he sings: A skinny dog crawls into the night As I grow restless longing for some my little Godson's company. I know that I must do what's right Sure as Wormtail was a dirty rotten traitor to his friends and me. I see my godson glance at me, frightened of this thing that I've become It really took a lot for me to get back. It's something that no other prisoners could ever do. I left Dementors down in Azkaban. Gonna save you, kid and kill the rat your buddy has. [Instrumental break, during which Sirius travels to Hogwarts and most of the school year occurs. He spots Ron and Scabbers outside Hagrid's hut, and goes nearly mad with anticipation] Hurry man, he's waiting there for you It really took a lot for me to get back to you. It's something that no other prisoners could ever do. I left Dementors down in Azkaban. Gonna save the kid and kill the rat the Weasley had. "You haven't been getting into the Gaffer's home brew again, have you?" "No... Well, yes, but that's beside the point." -Frodo and Bilbo Baggins, Fellowship of the Rings Extended Edition DVD From patricia at obscure.org Wed Mar 26 20:56:06 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 15:56:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: <049601c2f3d2$da9a9240$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54377 I have an alternate view of why Hermione talked to Krum at length about Harry but apparently not about Ron. I have always had a large number of male friends, and when I was much younger I once found myself in a situation where I was dating one boy but had strong romantic feelings for another, one of my friends. I found that while I could talk to my boyfriend about most of my male friends, I avoided discussing the one I had feelings for at all costs because I didn't want the depth of my attraction to him to become apparent. Hermione is generally a considerate and sensitive person, so I think she would take care not to gush on about someone else she was attracted to to the boy who clearly has a huge crush on her. If I'm right, that would tend to lean against her being interested in Harry, since she did apparently talk about him a good bit. Also, there are good reasons why Krum would be more threatened by Harry than Ron, even if Hermione had been talking about both boys equally. For starters, the major newspapers were reporting that Harry and Hermione were a couple. That right there is enough to make Krum jealous, no matter what Hermione talks about. Also, Harry is a celebrity, and a bigger celebrity than Krum. Krum may be a bit under the spell of the Boy-Who-Lived image himself (almost every other wizard is, so why not him?), and even if he isn't he knows from personal experience that girls seem to be inordinately attracted to famous people. Think about it: if the girl you were wild about spent most of her day hanging out with a major superstar and the papers were alleging they were a couple, wouldn't you be a bit concerned? Would you be more concerned about the superstar or the ordinary joe who dresses badly that they also hang out with? ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From sugarkadi at aol.com Wed Mar 26 20:14:55 2003 From: sugarkadi at aol.com (sugarkadi at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 15:14:55 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? and Why I hate the H/G Ship Message-ID: <59312CD7.4DAB1EAC.0290C41F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54378 Hey! Greicy said: > Thank you for pointing out that he has never mentioned > anything about hearing his mother when the dementors got > close to > him, etc. Did he tell them that the Sorting Hat wanted to Correction! Sorry if someone says this before I do, but I expected someone else to point it out by now. On page 214 of POA, American edition, it has: Harry looked at them. They didn't seem to understand at all. "D'you know what I see and hear every time a dementor gets too near me?...I can hear my mum screaming and pleading with Voldemort. and if you heard your mum scream like that, just about to be killed you wouldn't forget it in a hurry..." So Harry has opened up to them on this topic. ~Katey, de-lurking momentarily From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Mar 26 21:34:39 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 16:34:39 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? Message-ID: <34.37506e95.2bb376ef@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54379 In a message dated 3/26/2003 2:56:56 PM Central Standard Time, patricia at obscure.org writes: > I have an alternate view of why Hermione talked to Krum at length about > Harry but apparently not about Ron. > > I have always had a large number of male friends, and when I was much > younger I once found myself in a situation where I was dating one boy but > had strong romantic feelings for another, one of my friends. I found that > while I could talk to my boyfriend about most of my male friends, I > avoided discussing the one I had feelings for at all costs because I > didn't want the depth of my attraction to him to become apparent. > Hermione is generally a considerate and sensitive person, ***so I think she > would take care not to gush on about someone else she was attracted to to > the boy who clearly has a huge crush on her.*** If I'm right, that would > tend to lean against her being interested in Harry, since she did > apparently talk about him a good bit. > Color me confoozed ;-). . .Ron is the one who has a clear crush on her at the moment . .not Harry. So talking to him about Ron would be safe. OTOH if she had a crush on Harry she wouldn't discuss it with Ron because he's crushing on her so speaking with Krum about Harry would be a natural outlet. If you're talking about Krum crushing on her then its possible she that the thought hasn't even crossed her mind. He's 17/18, he's a world famous seeker, she might very well presume that he's over that stage, Or she might have needed an outlet badly enough that she took it, after all Krum was only there temporarily, she didn't seem to see him all that often (for what its worth I can't see her gossiping with Parvati/Lavender about Ron either. . far to much of a chance it would get back to him ironically I can see her talking to Harry about Ron . .he wouldn't tell). > Also, there are good reasons why Krum would be more threatened by Harry > than Ron, even if Hermione had been talking about both boys equally. For > starters, the major newspapers were reporting that Harry and Hermione were > a couple. That right there is enough to make Krum jealous, no matter what > Hermione talks about. Also, Harry is a celebrity, and a bigger celebrity > than Krum. Krum may be a bit under the spell of the Boy-Who-Lived image > himself (almost every other wizard is, so why not him?), and even if he > isn't he knows from personal experience that girls seem to be inordinately > attracted to famous people. Think about it: if the girl you were wild > about spent most of her day hanging out with a major superstar and the > papers were alleging they were a couple, wouldn't you be a bit concerned? > Would you be more concerned about the superstar or the ordinary joe who > dresses badly that they also hang out with? >> Krum, as you say, is also a celebrity not to the same extent perhaps but he's probably had enough personal experience with the Bulgarian version of Witch Weekly and Rita Skeeter to know how they work. Far more experience than Harry or Hermione have had until this point. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patricia at obscure.org Wed Mar 26 21:52:48 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 16:52:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: <34.37506e95.2bb376ef@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54380 On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 Meliss9900 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/26/2003 2:56:56 PM Central Standard Time, > patricia at obscure.org writes: > > > I have an alternate view of why Hermione talked to Krum at length about > > Harry but apparently not about Ron. > > > > I have always had a large number of male friends, and when I was much > > younger I once found myself in a situation where I was dating one boy but > > had strong romantic feelings for another, one of my friends. I found that > > while I could talk to my boyfriend about most of my male friends, I > > avoided discussing the one I had feelings for at all costs because I > > didn't want the depth of my attraction to him to become apparent. > > Hermione is generally a considerate and sensitive person, ***so I think she > > would take care not to gush on about someone else she was attracted to to > > the boy who clearly has a huge crush on her.*** If I'm right, that would > > tend to lean against her being interested in Harry, since she did > > apparently talk about him a good bit. > > > > Color me confoozed ;-). . .Ron is the one who has a clear crush on her at the > moment . .not Harry. So talking to him about Ron would be safe. OTOH if she > had a crush on Harry she wouldn't discuss it with Ron because he's crushing > on her so speaking with Krum about Harry would be a natural outlet. Sorry. I should have been more clear. I was referring to Hermione talking to Krum. I think it's pretty clear that Krum is seriously sweet on Hermione. He told her he had been hanging out in the library for months trying to get up the nerve to talk to her. That's a pretty clear indication of a crush, I think. ;) My point was that since Krum is clearly crushing on Hermione, she wouldn't gush to him about a different boy she likes. People have been arguing that she talks to Krum so much about Harry because she has romantic feelings for Harry, but it seems to me that if she did have those feelings she would talk about Harry less, not more, when she and Krum are together. > If you're talking about Krum crushing on her then its possible she that the > thought hasn't even crossed her mind. He's 17/18, he's a world famous seeker, > she might very well presume that he's over that stage, Or she might have > needed an outlet badly enough that she took it, after all Krum was only there > temporarily, she didn't seem to see him all that often (for what its worth I > can't see her gossiping with Parvati/Lavender about Ron either. . far to much > of a chance it would get back to him ironically I can see her talking to > Harry about Ron . .he wouldn't tell). I think it's pretty clear that Krum has a crush on Hermione, and since she is generally pretty observant of people I think Hermione would have noticed it too. I don't think Hermione would callously use Krum as an outlet at the expense of his feelings just because he's not going to be around long. It's just not her style. But I agree that I can't see her gossiping with Lavender or Parvati. As far as I can tell, she doesn't seem to feel she has a thing is common with those two. > > Also, there are good reasons why Krum would be more threatened by Harry > > than Ron, even if Hermione had been talking about both boys equally. For > > starters, the major newspapers were reporting that Harry and Hermione were > > a couple. That right there is enough to make Krum jealous, no matter what > > Hermione talks about. Also, Harry is a celebrity, and a bigger celebrity > > than Krum. Krum may be a bit under the spell of the Boy-Who-Lived image > > himself (almost every other wizard is, so why not him?), and even if he > > isn't he knows from personal experience that girls seem to be inordinately > > attracted to famous people. Think about it: if the girl you were wild > > about spent most of her day hanging out with a major superstar and the > > papers were alleging they were a couple, wouldn't you be a bit concerned? > > Would you be more concerned about the superstar or the ordinary joe who > > dresses badly that they also hang out with? >> > > > Krum, as you say, is also a celebrity not to the same extent perhaps but he's > probably had enough personal experience with the Bulgarian version of Witch > Weekly and Rita Skeeter to know how they work. Which is probably why he doesn't immediately give up hope of having a relationship with Hermione, but checks out the information with Harry instead. He probably know by now that what appears in the papers isn't always true, but he also knows it's not always a lie, either. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From carrie525 at mybluelight.com Wed Mar 26 18:42:21 2003 From: carrie525 at mybluelight.com (Carrie S) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 10:42:21 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] More questions about Buckbeak References: <000001c2f334$bceb9580$8ba9a7cb@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <00ce01c2f3e4$8154b320$0ac85142@net> No: HPFGUIDX 54381 Briony asked: 1 - If Sirius is cleared, what could happen to Buckbeak? Wouldn't Buckbeak be still under sentence of death? Perhaps they would be too busy about Voldemort to worry about a hippogriff. I respond.... If Hippogriffs are like birds, it could be really hard to tell one from another. If he stays away long enough, they might just give up on the idea. Even if Hippogriffs are like cats and dogs and look differently from one another, I think it would be hard to prove Buckbeak was really Buckbeak other than just another similar looking Hippogriff after he had been away for a while. I think this is why they tried to find him right after he escaped. If he flew the coop completely, they didn't have a chance of getting him executed. Also, who is going to identify him as the one and only Buckbeak? Hagrid?? I doubt he would admit if they had the right animal. In MB&WTFT, it says that wizards keep them as pets. It sort of puts a different spin on Hagrid, I think. The kids saw these as hugely dangerous creatures and we are led to believe, it wasn't a good choice of Hagrid's to use them. But I think Hagrid actually made a good choice of introducing these to the class. He chose something that was definately impressive and a little scary, but basically tame....if you followed directions and listened to your professor, no problems. I always thought Hagrid got a bad rap as being not too bright. I think he's a pretty smart fellow. Carrie, a Hagrid fan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Mar 26 22:11:57 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 17:11:57 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? Message-ID: <3f.1a509420.2bb37fad@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54382 In a message dated 3/26/2003 3:54:39 PM Central Standard Time, patricia at obscure.org writes: > Sorry. I should have been more clear. I was referring to Hermione > talking to Krum. I think it's pretty clear that Krum is seriously sweet > on Hermione. He told her he had been hanging out in the library for > months trying to get up the nerve to talk to her. That's a pretty clear > indication of a crush, I think. ;) > > My point was that since Krum is clearly crushing on Hermione, she wouldn't > gush to him about a different boy she likes. People have been arguing > that she talks to Krum so much about Harry because she has romantic > feelings for Harry, but it seems to me that if she did have those feelings > she would talk about Harry less, not more, when she and Krum are together Hermione is very perceptive but she's not all knowing (shhhh don't tell her that ;-)). Possibly or maybe she thought he was scared to approach her because of her reputation has a "know it all." For some reason she's always struck me as having self esteem issues maybe that's why I can't quite picture her thinking that this world famous seeker likes her romantically. A boy being afraid of her because she's smart, she can believe . .she's probably ran into it a lot. But but one liking romantically for herself? She'd probably have a harder time with it She also might just see it as him approaching her because she didn't seem to be one to be swept away by celebrity. Unlike the fangirls with the Bulgaria scaves. (did any female students come over from Drumstrang? Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Mar 26 22:14:01 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 22:14:01 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? and Why I hate the H/G Ship In-Reply-To: <02cc01c2f344$fba2a060$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54383 Penny said: >>But see, I don't necessarily forsee or even want Harry to become involved with Hermione as a teenager. I'd prefer to see them both grow up and then realize what's been sitting in front of them all these years. To do that, they'll each need to have some heart-aches, disappointments, failed romances and the like.No fairy tales for my characters, thanks. :--) << No fairy tales? How sad! But as C.S. Lewis said of using "stained glass" as a metaphor for rigidity and lifelessness, people need to remember what stained glass is really like. Fairy tales are full of heartbreak, cruelty, disillusionment and young men torn apart by thorns. But I'm not sure I understand. What exactly is sitting in front of them? They've shared a lot of laughs and hard work, (and a few moments of agonizing peril) which makes them *friends*. Harry and Ginny, on the other hand, do have something sitting in front of them--they both know what it's like to be haunted by Voldemort, and unless things change drastically in the remaining books, that's something Hermione will never know. Penny said: >>>But, Harry already has confided in Hermione! He has shared feelings with her, and she has acted as his confidante (during the entire fight with Ron in GoF). He also confided in her about thinking that he'd seen his dad on the other side of the Lake in PoA. To the extent that Hermione tries to "improve" Harry, I think it's always out of concern for his safety and well-being. It's not because she thinks he's not a good enough person as is. Yes, she harps on *both* boys about their schoolwork (but even that is becoming less and less as time goes on). Her other actions with regard to Harry always revolve around his safety, not his character flaws or failings as a human being. I somehow doubt that Harry wants Ginny to fawn over him adoringly. I somehow picture he'd want someone who would challenge him, someone with enough backbone to both support him but tell it like it is when need be. If Ginny's principal strengths as a future mate for Harry are her status as a Weasley and her undying devotion to the notion that Harry Potter is perfect just as he is, I think Ginny has a tough case. <<<<< And Erica said: >>>I do not see Hermione 'trying to improve him', why would she want to? I was under the impression that she already thinks very highly of him (You're a Great Wizard Harry!). <<< This actually illustrates my point. "Harry--you're a great wizard, you know." "I'm not as good as you," said Harry, very embarrassed, as she let go of him. "Me!" said Hermione. "Books! and cleverness. There are more important things--" He tells her his feelings here, and she immediately denies them. Yes, it's the right thing to say and he needs to hear it, but all the same, it's not about how he does feel, it's about the way she thinks he *should* feel. And he *avoids* confiding his feelings to her during the quarrel with Ron. "I don't miss him!" He knows it's only his pride talking...but he's not about to admit that to her. All through GoF, Hermione's trying to get Harry to do things: make up with Ron, support SPEW, study the Egg, etc. I'm not saying these are bad things, but her vision of what Harry ought to be is foremost in her mind, and doesn't allow her to appreciate Harry the way he actually is--and he knows this. Yes, it's all for his safety and well being, but it's still a barrier to intimacy. Ginny fawning would certainly turn Harry off but...when have we seen Ginny fawn over Harry? She begs her mother for the chance to go see him on the train platform, but she doesn't know he's listening (and judging by her behavior in CoS, she'd be mortified if she did.) She sent him one valentine and one get-well card, over the course of three years. She apparently gushed about him to her Diary, (though Riddle's acccount is certainly self-serving and may be outright lies) for which she's no more answerable than Harry is for secretly wishing he could put the Cruciatus curse on Snape. Ron teases that Ginny and Colin will be forming a Harry Potter fan club--but that's a joke. No fannish behavior ever materializes. She never makes a claim on his attention, which is a very unfannish way to think. Ginny's not blind to Harry's shortcomings--she gets him back good for laughing at Neville. But she's not trying to make him live up to her vision of what he could be. Pippin who stands humbly corrected--Harry did tell his friends about hearing his parents' deaths. From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 26 22:46:29 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 22:46:29 -0000 Subject: Language point that may have been missed In-Reply-To: <20030326192547.57586.qmail@web13105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54384 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Giselle Sicle wrote: > > > Eric Oppen wrote:I was just rereading GoF to keep off the pangs from knowing OoP is coming > out soon, and noticed something. _Even when Fleur Delacour is talking to > Madame Maxime or Gabrielle,_ she continues to speak English, albeit wiz an > 'orrible French ack-sent. > > When the other three champs find out that Harry's a champion too, Fleur says > to Madame Maxime something about "zis little boy" competing. Later on, even > in a very stressful situation, when she's speaking to her sister whom she'd > given up for dead in the lake, she's speaking English. "It was ze > grindylows..." > > Is this a Flint? > > Eric, perhaps it is not a flint but literary help to us English > speaking people. If JKR were to have written all of > Fleur's "lines" in French, half of the readers would not be able > to understand, but that's just my pinion. References: <3f.1a509420.2bb37fad@aol.com> Message-ID: <174181867379.20030326143042@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 54385 Hi, Wednesday, March 26, 2003, 2:11:57 PM, Meliss9900 wrote: > For some reason she's always struck > me as > having self esteem issues maybe that's why I can't quite picture her > thinking > that this world famous seeker likes her romantically. Hm, but what would his reason be for asking Hermione to go to the ball with him? The way she talks about Krum, and the things she mentions about him in conversation make me think there really isn't much else that would have motivated, *except* romantic feelings. And Hermione reacted very flattered (imo) and made it a point to make herself look as nice as possible for the ball. While Hermione is not all-knowing, she would have to be pretty thick to miss Krum's obvious attraction to her. She didn't miss Ron's, and I'm pretty sure she's aware of Krum's intentions. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 26 23:33:45 2003 From: mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com (mr_ed732000) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 23:33:45 -0000 Subject: Language point that may have been missed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54386 For the record, the following is excerpted from the chapter entitled "The Four Champions," and appears on page 282 of the American hard-bound edition: "'Professor Karkaroff -- Madame Maxime -- a nightcap?' said Dumbledore. "But Madame Maxime had already put her arm around Fleur's shoulders and was leading her swiftly out of the room. Harry could hear them both talking very fast in French as they went off into the Great Hall. Karkaroff beckoned to Krum, and they, too, exited, though in silence." From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Wed Mar 26 23:43:06 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 23:43:06 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? and Why I hate the H/G Ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54387 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > But I'm not sure I understand. What exactly is sitting in front of > them? They've shared a lot of laughs and hard work, (and a few > moments of agonizing peril) which makes them *friends*. Harry > and Ginny, on the other hand, do have something sitting in front > of them--they both know what it's like to be haunted by > Voldemort, and unless things change drastically in the > remaining books, that's something Hermione will never know. > What haunted? When in PoA or GoF do we get the impression that Ginny is 'haunted' by Voldemort. If that event is going to bring them together - why the two years plus wait after the fact? What do Harry and Hermione have between them? Nothing much, just 4 years of abiding friendship, shared experiences, and time travel. Hermione helped Harry save possibly the most important figure in Harry's life (his Godfather - a connection to his parents). > > Ginny's not blind to Harry's shortcomings--she gets him back > good for laughing at Neville. But she's not trying to make him live > up to her vision of what he could be. > Hermione is not making him live up to the vision of what he could be either, IMHO - she's trying to help in survive. Erica From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Mar 26 23:46:31 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 18:46:31 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? Message-ID: <129.2673ed32.2bb395d7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54388 In a message dated 3/26/2003 4:49:59 PM Central Standard Time, siskiou at earthlink.net writes: > Hm, but what would his reason be for asking Hermione to go > to the ball with him? > > The way she talks about Krum, and the things she mentions > about him in conversation make me think there really isn't > much else that would have motivated, *except* romantic > feelings. > I'd have to go back and re-read it but I didn't get the impression that she thought it was especially romantic until they were leaving and he took her off to ask if she could to visit him in Bulgaria. > And Hermione reacted very flattered (imo) and made it a > point to make herself look as nice as possible for the ball. > Why wouldn't she? It was her first dress up occassion in the WW. Heck I pretty much live in jeans and t-shirts but even I'd make a point to look nice if I were going to a ball > While Hermione is not all-knowing, she would have to be > pretty thick to miss Krum's obvious attraction to her. > > She didn't miss Ron's, and I'm pretty sure she's aware of > Krum's intentions. > She knows Ron (and Harry) better. And its entirely possible that she might have been stressed enough to relax her guard I mean after all we don't know WHAT she said to Viktor. It *might* have nothing more than best friend kinda things, then again it *might* have > -- > Best regards, > Susanne TTFN Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From flamingstarchows at att.net Wed Mar 26 23:48:23 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 17:48:23 -0600 Subject: Language point that may have been missed References: <000601c2f3c7$6971c3a0$1d560043@hppav> Message-ID: <00e201c2f3f2$30b68b60$1811570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 54389 ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Oppen _Even when Fleur Delacour is talking to Madame Maxime or Gabrielle,_ she continues to speak English, albeit wiz an 'orrible French ack-sent. Later on, even in a very stressful situation, when she's speaking to her sister whom she'd given up for dead in the lake, she's speaking English. "It was ze grindylows..." Is this a Flint? ----Me---- I don't think so. First, the book is in English, so what would they do? they can't exactly have subtitles like the movies. I imagine she speaks whatever language the book is translated into. Also, Fleur states that she want to come back to "work on her English." She could deliberately be concentrating on speaking English. By the time the second task had rolled around, she had already been at Hogwarts for a number of months and may be speaking English out of habit by then. In spite of her accent, her English may be much better than we think. ~Cathy~ From kristen at sanderson-web.com Thu Mar 27 00:18:29 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (GKJPO) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 00:18:29 -0000 Subject: Circular room on the cover In-Reply-To: <20030326170518.30279.qmail@web13113.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54390 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Giselle Sicle wrote: > > Tonya Minton wrote:Snip > > > IMO it is the asronomy room. #1" it is a room Harry is familiar with. #2: it is a room the reader knows about but has yet to "see" it. and finally #3: perhaps the candles are part of the "undiscovered" magical qualities it contains. > > Giselle I don't know if I can agree with this. My disagreement has nothing to do with your logic, though :). It has more to do with JKR's writing style. When there is something important, we always have clues for several times before you see the importance (take Mrs. Figg for example who still hasn't made her main appearance, but has been mentioned in 2 books so far). I would expect that the room of importance (and POSSIBLY the one on the cover) is one we've heard about, and had described, but never realized the importance of. I cannot remember ever having the Astronomy room described to me, so I can't believe it is important. However, I will say this...if JKR starts out book 5 by describing the room in detail, I will sit up and take notice! :) My vote is for the Gryffindor common room. Wouldn't it be cool to find a room with all these magical properties and it's a place where they've already spent so much time? Kristen From kristen at sanderson-web.com Thu Mar 27 00:27:24 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (GKJPO) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 00:27:24 -0000 Subject: Circular room on the cover In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54391 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: > > I agree, the room is circular and it seems to me that it is in a > tower because I see the top of the page as though the room is rising > up and boards going up as well. (Even my mother said right away > it's a tower.) The Gryffindor common room is a tower. So is the > Astronomy room. Is Trelawney's class in a tower? We don't know > anything about the Astronomy room so it may contain 3 doors. The > Gryffindor Common Room has three doors: one to the girls' > dormitories, another to the boys' and the entrance to the common > room. This is all we know of so far about the common room. Unless > there's a hidden door conveniently behind a picture which is in > between both doors. Do we know of anything in between these two > doors? Are the two doors next to each other? (Shame my memory is > bad). Why would there be candles in the Gryffindor Common Room? > Maybe it's not the common room. > Trelawney's room is definitely a tower - it's located at the top of the north tower I think. There has been no room described that I could find that has 3 doors and so far the only room described with candles is the Great Hall and the dungeon for the Deathday party (that I could find). > How about this idea? Harry sees the hidden door behind the picture > and goes up through it, finding a secret magical room that is filled > of candles and has three doors leading to who knows where. > I like this idea. We know that Hogwarts has lots of secret passageways and beyond the paths to Hogsmeade and the Chamber of Secrets, we really haven't seen any of that yet. I still think it would be cool if the entryway is in a room that we've spent lots of time in in past books. For example, in Trelawney's classroom, Harry has all sorts of visions and dreams. Is it because of the room's atmosphere? or is it because of something else that we haven't yet seen. Maybe the other world is a lot closer in that room and Harry has the skills to get to it. Could this be why Trelawney was trying to keep Harry in class when his scar hurt in Book 4? Kristen From keithmascarenhas at hotpop.com Thu Mar 27 00:40:30 2003 From: keithmascarenhas at hotpop.com (Keith Mascarenhas) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 06:10:30 +0530 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Re: Who is the boy?/ Harry's Funeral References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030324213946.00c32d50@pop3.norton.antivirus> <3514108761.20030324155509@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001c01c2f3f9$80f9b550$140110ac@e97z2grx09q8y3k> No: HPFGUIDX 54392 Suzanne Says: "Sure, but she's not the only one who decides what will happen, concerning shipping. If she secretly loves Harry, it isn't going to help one bit if Harry doesn't return her feelings, and so far I see no signs that he does (apart from friendship love)." So far Harry does not return Ginny's feelings either - and with Ginny, I get the distinct impression that he would not rather eat live scorpions than have anything to do with Ginny. He's suspicious of her feelings towards him (let's be honest, he hates being a celebrity and is suspicious of people wanting to go out with him, only because he is a celebrity) knowing fully well that she's likes "The Boy Who Lived" not smart, funny, knobbly-kneed, Quidditch player extraordinaire, Harry Potter! "This could change down the road, but so could Hermione's feelings (if she does feel more than friendship for Harry, which I have my doubts about). The way they interact when alone together just doesn't make me feel good about a future romantic relationship between those two." Suzanne, that's what you think, that's not what some of us think! The way H/H interract when alone together precisely makes some of us feel that they could very well become a couple in the future - Both H/H and H/R interactions can be called sibling like - check out The Secret Seven series by Enid Blyton, You'll find patterns for H/H in Peter/Janet who are siblings and you'll find patterns for R/H in Jack/Susie who are siblings. Don't forget, Hogwarts was probably based on Melory Towers series and St Clares series by Blyton. Regards, Keith From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 00:41:05 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 00:41:05 -0000 Subject: Transfiguration (a filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54393 Here is a filk based on "New Math" by Tom Lehrer (may blessings be upon his name). The original song can be heard at this link: http://music.barnesandnoble.com/search/product.asp?ean=75992743426 Italics are indicated by enclosing the relevent words within asterisks. Asterisks themselves are not intended. Among other functions, these show McGonagall speaking to her class, in the same manner as Lehrer did to his audience at the *hungry i* in San Francisco. Neither Tom nor Minerva sang these respective passages. I dedicate this filk to Gail Bohacek, in homage to her brilliant filk of the Tom Lehrer song "Lobachevsky" titled "Karkaroff". Transfiguration SCENE: Professor Minerva McGonagall is giving a lecture to her students: *Transfiguration is some of the most complex and dangerous magic you will learn at Hogwarts. Anyone messing around in my class will leave and not come back. You have been warned. It is important that you understand what you're doing rather than just get the right answer. Consider the following Transfiguration problem: turn a tortoise into a teapot* Now, teapots cannot walk, So they don't need feet, So you remove four tiny tortoise feet. Now likewise, there's no nose, So you give them a spout, Regroup, and you change their tops into lids, And you add handles right there at the back, And you take away tails, that's fine. Is that clear? Now instead of a mouth in its face You've a spout, 'Cause you need liquid, That is to say, tea, to come out, But you can't make tortoise-shell tea, So you make a ceramic shell. You can then boil the water To make tea... (And you know why you just cannot pour It into a tortoise shell? 'Cause you will end up with tortoise soup, right!)... And so you've got tortoise shells, And you take away the tops, and that leaves tea... *Well, soup actually. You see why organization is the important thing?* Now go back to the ceramic shell, And you're almost done, And you make a pretty design, And that leaves...? *Everybody get a teapot? No, Master Longbottom, it is not supposed to be a tortoise that breathes steam.* Transfiguration, Transformation, It really takes a lot of imagination. It's not simple, Not very simple; Master Longbottom cannot do it! *Now, actually, that is not the answer that I had in mind, because in the book that I got this spell out of, Emeric Switch's "A Beginner's Guide To Transfiguration", they want you to turn a guinea- fowl into a guinea-pig. But don't panic. The basic principles are the same. Shall we have a go at it?* A guinea-pig can't fly, Flying is for birds, So you change the bird to a mammal. Now it doesn't have ears, So you give it pig's ears, Regroup and you conjure up a pigtail, And you add it to its rump, And you get a little tail, Which should not be curled, And you take away the corkscrew shape. Now, instead of two feet, called talons, You've got four. 'Cause you added two That is to say, hooves, to the two Talons, but you can't add any more feet, Or you might end up with insects. *Insects? "How did insects get into it?" I hear you cry. Well, insects and arachnids will be for next year, don't you know? So if you have any more silly questions, ask Miss Granger for the answers.* >From the feet you then go right To its face, And you turn its beak to a nose, And you get a guinea-pig's snout. Or, in other words, Guinea-fowl have only two feet, And you then add two more feet, And two feet plus two more feet is four. Now forget about the insects, And we're left with skin, And you change feathers into fur, And that leaves...? *Now, let's not always see the same hands. Right, Miss Granger? No, Master Longbottom, your guinea-pig is not supposed to have feathers.* Transfiguration, Transformation, It really takes a lot of determination. It's not simple, Not very simple; Master Longbottom cannot do it! -Haggridd From saddletank at v21.me.uk Wed Mar 26 23:29:03 2003 From: saddletank at v21.me.uk (Martin Soilleux-Cardwell) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 23:29:03 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Language point that may have been missed In-Reply-To: <000601c2f3c7$6971c3a0$1d560043@hppav> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030326232456.00b50d00@mail.v21.me.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 54394 >Eric Oppen wrote: >I was just rereading GoF to keep off the pangs from knowing OoP is coming >out soon, and noticed something. _Even when Fleur Delacour is talking to >Madame Maxime or Gabrielle,_ she continues to speak English, albeit wiz an >'orrible French ack-sent. > >Is this a Flint? I suspect this is either a plot device so the non-linguistic can understand what the heck's being said ;) Or a wizarding variant of the Universal Translator exists... But having foreigners speak English with their local accent has been a trend of writers and film-makers for decades. It's laughable sometimes but I don't have a problem with it. I'm more comfortable with it that having the text in French and having to root out my old school English-French dictionary ;) Regards Martin "...I want to fix that in my memory for ever," said Ron, his eyes closed and an uplifted expression on his face. "Draco Malfoy, the amazing bouncing ferret..." From saddletank at v21.me.uk Wed Mar 26 23:52:35 2003 From: saddletank at v21.me.uk (Martin Soilleux-Cardwell) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 23:52:35 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What Can Apparate? My Theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030326234519.00b5d950@mail.v21.me.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 54395 > > I asked: > > > How did the Durmstrang ship get into Hogwarts lake if it didn't > > > apparate there? > >Steve (bboy_mn): > >Apparation: >My theory is that you can apparate with anything you can possess. For >example, you possess your clothes, so when you apparate, they come >with you. [snip] >Transfer Charm: >We have seen many examples of what, for lack of a better name, I call >Transfer Charms. Dumbledore ... sleeping bags ... [snippety snip] >Water Travel: [snip snippy snip] But my question remains unanswered: How does the ship get there? I'll add the (perhaps) un-neccessary rider that it has a bunch of people on it. And apparating into Hogwarts is the most underlined no-no in the books. So - it must have arrived physically. When this line of thinking came to me ages ago I immediately thought of underground rivers, or at least a surface feeder river from the lake to a point outside Hogwarts into which the ship *could* apparate, then submerge to surface on the Hogwarts lake. Messy though. Can't say I like it. I have to shrug at this point and suggest another JKR inconsistency. Please, if you go to a book sigining ask JK this one for me - it's driving me nuts! Regards Martin "...I want to fix that in my memory for ever," said Ron, his eyes closed and an uplifted expression on his face. "Draco Malfoy, the amazing bouncing ferret..." From saddletank at v21.me.uk Thu Mar 27 00:01:22 2003 From: saddletank at v21.me.uk (Martin Soilleux-Cardwell) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 00:01:22 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Intent of spells (was: What Can Apparate? (WAS: Durmstrang ship)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030326235252.00b5d5c0@mail.v21.me.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 54396 >Me: > > How did the Durmstrang ship get into Hogwarts lake if it didn't > > apparate there? > >Phyllis: > >I have absolutely no idea, but your question leads me to wonder about >whether ships, or any other inanimate object for that matter, can >apparate. IIRC, every time there's a reference to someone or >something apparating, it's a solo wizard. Wizards apparate while >holding other objects (the salesmen at the QWC, for example), but can >wizards apparate and take their surrounding vehicle (like a ship or >car) with them to their new location? Me again: I accept the 'intent' concept of spell casting. If the intent is clear, the mind sufficiently trained and strong, a spell will work. The words spoken are totally irrelevant (Harry can zap Grindylows in the lake even though his shouts form only bubbles). So if the intent is for a wizard to apparate to Gringotts to withdraw some Galleons he'll appear there fully clothed since that is how he needs to appear to conduct business. If Professor McGonagall's intent is to take human form to discuss vital issues with Dumbeldore at midnight in Privet Drive, she'll transform from a cloth-less cat to a fully dressed witch without thinking about it. Whatever magic drives the Knight Bus, it's Erine Prang's intent to get from A to F in one leap and so he does. It's just the *zap!* into Hogwarts grounds that has me stumped... Regards Martin "...I want to fix that in my memory for ever," said Ron, his eyes closed and an uplifted expression on his face. "Draco Malfoy, the amazing bouncing ferret..." From saddletank at v21.me.uk Thu Mar 27 00:06:21 2003 From: saddletank at v21.me.uk (Martin Soilleux-Cardwell) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 00:06:21 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? and Why I hate the H/G Ship Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030327000152.00b56008@mail.v21.me.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 54397 Me: Ron (has crush on) Hermione (has crush on) Harry (has crush on) Cho. Greicy: > > What are your proofs that Hermione > > is slowly realizing she has deeper feelings for Harry? Melissa: > For me its less the cheek kiss and more Krum telling Harry that Hermione's > always talking to him (Krum) about Harry. I think that the kiss might be > more of a wake up call to Harry. Me again: Melissa has pretty much voiced my thoughts there. I'm also putting store on what JKR is quoted as saying at an interview (I forget which but I read it on here in the last 36 hours): "People are in love with the wrong people at the moment" (paraphrased). I think Ron is 'wrongly' leaning to Hermione and Harry 'wrongly' to Cho. Maybe even Krum 'wrongly' to Hermione. I think, given the centrality of the two main characters that we are looking at an (eventual) Harry and Hermione bonding. I hope something develops in OoP, but if it does it will be very much a love born in warfare and turmoil so a pretty firmly founded one and not anything soppy. Hermione isn't the soppy type anyway ;) Was there not also a hug between H/Hr at the end of CoS, or am I thinking of the film version? Just my 2 knuts (probably if it were wizard talk, 3 knuts). Regards Martin "...I want to fix that in my memory for ever," said Ron, his eyes closed and an uplifted expression on his face. "Draco Malfoy, the amazing bouncing ferret..." From fausts at attglobal.net Thu Mar 27 02:05:52 2003 From: fausts at attglobal.net (anguaorc) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 02:05:52 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: <1c3.7329982.2bb36139@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54398 I am going to try to reply to messages from Melissa and Penny in tandem. Here goes: Melissa: > One made in anger, based on the tone? That's beautiful? > earth could she be angry? Hmmm perhaps because she's just been accused AGAIN > of betraying Harry. Angua: Umm, I said it *explains* it beautifully. Why would Hermione say something like that? Because it's what her heart is full of. Yes, she clearly is angry. It's funny, though -- usually when people are angry their first reaction isn't to order the person who made them angry to ask them out on a date. Hermione does. One might be justified in believing she *wants* Ron to ask her out on a date. Penny: > LOL! Well, possibly. I think I'd rely more on the heart being true on a day-to-day basis ("Hermioninny talks about you all the time") more than a statement made in anger and hurt. But, that's a fair shot. :--) Angua: :-) Thanks! I believe Hermione's "very often" (not "all the time") talk about Harry *does* reveal her heart. Of course she loves Harry! She is also extremely invested in him doing well in and surviving the Triwizard Tournament, to the point of skimping on studying to help him practice. Ron probably talks about Harry "very often" as well, and he is also highly invested in Harry winning and living. The problem is in making the leap to a *romantic* love. That is certainly a natural mistake for Viktor to make, considering those two articles, and all the other things he has seen. But we, the reader, have much more information than Viktor does. We *know* Hermione loves Harry. But we don't have any indication that she likes him "that way." In fact, we have pretty good indication that she likes another boy "that way." Melissa: > Except Harry doesn't know exactly WHAT Hermione's been saying to Krum. Krum > didn't tell him the specifics (purposefully perhaps)? And if Harry did know > would he be blushing ;-). . Angua: Or would he be saying, "You call twice "very often"!? Man, you really must be the grumpy paranoid jealous type! My point was that KRUM knows exactly what Hermione's been saying, and HE is satisfied by Harry's explanation. So, I don't think what she said would have been too blush-inducing. Penny: > You mean, Viktor, the one who doesn't, as far we know, feel the least bit threatened by Ron as a romantic rival? The Viktor who *does* regard Harry as a romantic rival? The Viktor who is older and more experienced in these matters? Yeah, okay. I'll trust Viktor -- Harry says there's nothing going on and Viktor believes him. Viktor does not apparently show any signs of thinking her other best friend is any threat to him though, now does he? :--) Angua: We don't have any evidence that Viktor is experienced in romance; the trailing fangirls episodes seem to indicate that he has found his fame a barrier to finding a nice girl. But you are correct -- we have no reason to suspect that Viktor thinks Hermione likes Ron. But why should he? Hermione can keep a secret pretty darn well, when she's not stung into a screaming fury by Ron. How is Krum to know who Hermione likes? He thought he had a handle on it -- those newspaper articles and the talking and all. But that seems not to be. Should he go down the list of all the boys Hermione knows, looking for the "culprit?" I don't think so. He had clear and obvious reason to suspect Harry, and he did suspect him. For all Krum knows, Hermione doesn't like anyone. I don't see any reason for him to get suspicious of Ron, unless Hermione was far more careless than we've seen her being. Melissa: > I've no doubt it was meant as a supportive kiss but why JKR's need to draw > added (its her only hit-over-the-head-with-a-beater's-bat clue) attention to > it. Angua: You mean she drew attention to it like this: "He had no memory of ever being hugged like this, as though by a mother"? JKR is clearly trying to emphasize the dark seriousness of what Harry has gone through and what is happening to the wizard world. *Everyone* is suddenly touching Harry in new, affectionate ways. Bill Weasley claps him on the shoulder. Fawkes nestles on his lap. Sirius holds him by the shoulder throughout his talk with Dumbledore. Molly Weasley hugs him as he's never been hugged before. Hagrid pulls Harry into a one-armed hug and ruffles his hair. Ron claps him on the back, which he's never done before except once after a Quidditch game. Hermione kisses him on the cheek, which she's never done before. Melissa: > It'd would have been easy enough to write: "Bye, Harry!," said Hermione > kissing him on the cheek" --that sounds supportive-- Angua: But it doesn't add nearly so well to the ominous atmosphere. She could have written Molly's hug without the emphasis, too, but it's better with it. JKR is telling us how serious this is. Penny: > You got it backwards. She takes a strong dislike to Fleur from the start ....... way before she notices Ron's reaction. She *arguably* seems annoyed about Ron's crush on Fleur. Angua: She is "simply furious" about *something*. It can't be Fleur's behavior at that point, because at that time Fleur is behaving unexceptionally, even admirably. Do you really think Hermione would dislike someone so much for not being properly prepared for the Hogwarts chill that she would be "simply furious" four months later when this person (for very good reason) thanks her friends for their help? Melissa: > > JKR has also said that she doesn't write to a formula. .its in the inteview > section at the Leaky Cauldron .. its an audio only. Angua: Well, not intentionally. ;) She has discussed her *unconscious* use of literary traditions: ******* Now, there are elements in the story that are undoubtedly very traditional. In many children's books, you will find the same basic pattern that occurs in fairy tales. There are good reasons why fairy tales endure. They appeal to us on such a subconscious and emotional level. I think you could say many of the same things about Harry. You have the changeling, you have the wicked stepparents (even though one of them is a blood relative, in Harry's case). You even have an ugly brother, in a way. But I certainly did not sit down and think about incorporating all of those elements. It all came from inside. ******* JKR doesn't reinvent the wheel; she redesigns it. She uses jealousy of a rival to reveal Ron's feelings for Hermione. Why in the world wouldn't she use jealousy of a rival to reveal Hermione's feelings for Ron? In my opinion, she clearly has. Angua before: > <<<>>>>>> Penny: > Wouldn't you? Harry doesn't engage in this churlish behavior, so I'm not the least surprised that she doesn't express any problems with Harry's dating choices. Angua: I certainly wouldn't stomp out of the room about it, no. Or bring it up later with malicious glee, when my friend failed to get a date. *Ginny* seems to have a problem with Harry's dating choices. Hermione doesn't say a word about it or even seem to notice it. Melissa: > She doesn't > explode at Harry because he had the sense not to draw the Wrath of Hermione > down upon himself. I've no doubt that had he been the one rushing into No > Man's Land he'd be the one getting the earful. Angua: I definitely have doubts. She didn't say a word or make a sound when Fred rushes into No Man's Land. But the deeper question is why did *JKR* choose to show Hermione getting her panties all in a twist about Ron's dating intentions. There are really only two possible answers: that she intended to show that Hermione likes Ron, or that she intended to *fool us into thinking* that Hermione likes Ron. Otherwise, what possible point do those scenes have? It seems clear to me that JKR was cleverly writing the whole Yule Ball sequence to make it clear to her readers that Ron and Hermione *both* like each other, with the maximum of hurt feelings on both sides. Those scenes are *much* richer and funnier if read that way. Read the H/H way, frankly, they're a waste of pages. Melissa: > Yep they are clues all right. Very obvious clues from a writer who seems to > delight in planting subtle clues all over her work. And just because > they've been seen a thousand times before doesn't mean that the way in which > they are being applied is the same. Angua: Make up your mind! If Hermione's dislike of Fleur and anger at Ron is perfectly natural for a feminist and has nothing to do with liking Ron, or whatever, how can it ALSO be too obvious a clue that she likes Ron to be real? Which are you choosing to argue? - because I don't think you can argue both. Why are the Ron-jealous clues apparently real, but the Hermione- jealous clues "not subtle enough?" The Hermione-jealous-of-Padma clue is VERY subtle. Remember, JKR has *said* that the answer to "does Hermione like Ron as more than a friend" is in GoF. If she's given "obvious" clues, that would certainly explain her statement. Melissa: > Actually JKR hasn't failed, she's cloaked them quite nicely. Angua: So nicely that they don't exist. Melissa: > Sort of like > the way that Snape/Quirrell seemed to be connected in such a way that it > looked as though Snape were the guilty party. It was obvious that Snape > wasn't guilty but not quite so obvious that Quirrell was. Angua: And it's obvious that Harry doesn't like Hermione and Ron *does* , but it's not quite as obvious that Hermione likes Ron and not Harry. Still, the clues are there, just as the clues existed that Quirrell was guilty. Melissa: > All of those instances of blushing ect you quote also took place when Harry > was there. Angua: Harry is always there. But she was talking to Ron. Melissa: > As for her not being hurt over his denials. She sounds hurt to me > with her "just ignore it/them." Angua: I don't understand this one. She says that *before* we see Harry deny it. Melissa: > And she knows (in the all encompassing way > that students at Hogwarts seem to know everything) that Cho/Cedric are a > couple, she's too practical to be jealous of an apparently established couple Angua: I don't understand this one either. Are you saying that Hermione *would* have been jealous of Cho and disliked her, but didn't bother to because Cho was "taken" and therefore not a threat? This makes no sense at all. For one thing, there was no hint that Cho and Cedric were an item when Harry slopped water all over himself and said "they make them just fine at Hogwarts." Second, Hermione has as much initial reason to believe that Fleur and Roger Davies are a couple as she does to believe that Cho and Cedric are a couple (a Yule Ball date), so by that logic she should not experience jealousy of Fleur either. Thirdly, surely no one thinks that Ron had a *chance* with Fleur? Fleur shouldn't have been a threat, but Hermione seems to be jealous just because Ron admires her. The same thing should have applied to Cho. Melissa: > There's also an interview/article where it states that Harry will begin to > get more interested in Hermione. I need to look that one up again. Angua: Don't get too excited about that one. JKR didn't say it. A reporter said it, after viewing the "Harry and Me" special, which didn't actually say anything of the sort. There was even a corrected version of this story released a week later, IIRC. Melissa: JKR also > has stated that she plans things out but leaves room for changes AND that > Book 5 would be about POA length (I'm glad that changed. .I like long > books!) Angua: Wait! What are you saying? Are you implying that JKR will change her mind about having Hermione end up with Ron and have her end up with Harry instead? If so, you are conceding that the evidence thus far looks like JKR intends to write R/H, but clinging to the hope that she'll somehow see reason and change her mind. That's not a really strong debate position. If not, why did you mention it? Melissa: > Or perhaps its just a stubborn ability to see though the obvious and into the > subtle . . . .something that's definitely a blessing with JKR's writing > style. I admit when I first read all 4 books in March of last year (hey I > just realized its been a year to the week) I definitely saw R/Hr, then on > reading them I began to compare the way that she's foreshadowed them to the > way that she foreshadowed everything else major and its just doesn't mesh > with the writing style she's shown thus far. Angua: Or could it be that she develops relationships *differently* from the way she develops her mystery plots? If an intended relationship isn't revealed until the last possible minute, the reader doesn't get much fun out of it! No juicy scenes of misunderstandings and hurt feelings and reconciliation, and all that. That was fine for Percy/Penny, but apparently JKR wants to milk R/H for humor. And it has been *very* funny so far. > Melissa . . what's wrong with romance and eroticism. Angua: Not a thing in the world! We humans are very fond of it. That's why we have a tendency to see it everywhere -- even where it doesn't exist. Angua (previously): > <<< except as a last resort.>>>>>> > Penny: > :::coughs:::: Um, you might want to remind me of your logic on that one? She seems utterly delighted that Ron is dateless and in a real fix (serves him right, that cad). At that point, *she* already has a date. Doesn't seem too hurt and offended to me. She is certain *offended* that he would think she was dateless and sitting around waiting on him or anyone else. Can't blame her there either -- again, Ron's being a cad. Since she accepted Krum's invitation, I see no evidence that she was sitting around passively pining away for Ron or Harry. So, the above statement seems really a tad strong, IMHO. Angua: Three indications: When Hermione says "next time... ask me before somebody else does and not as a last resort, it implies that she minded being *asked last* not that she minded being assumed to be sitting around dateless. It definitely implies that she minded Ron wanting to ask other girls first. When Hermione says "just because it took *you* three years to notice, Ron," it implies that she wanted him to notice sooner. When Ron says he doesn't want to go with a "troll," the severity of her anger hints that she thinks Ron is implying *she's* a troll. He hasn't asked her, so she must be a troll. I know you don't agree with this interpretation, Penny, but it seems clearly implied in the text to me, and it explains why she gets so mad, and returns to the argument later. Angua (previously): > <<< Ron ask her to the next Ball.>>>>>>> > Penny: > LOL! Oh, c'mon. *Demands*???! IMHO, she's saying "*If* you ask me to the next ball other than as a last resort, I *might* think about it." Yes, she demands it. She yells it, with an exclamation mark on the end. "Next time there's a ball, ask me before somebody else does, and not as a last resort!" I wouldn't call that a request or a suggestion. It sounds like an order to me. Angua (previously): > <<>>>>>> > Penny: > Sure she does. See above. No. She blushes when talking about her love life when Harry is listening. She does not blush when talking about her love life *to* Harry. Angua (previously): > <<<<>>> > Penny: > Of course not ------ she might feel she doesn't stand a chance with him and is doing a good job of covering up (slip-up with Krum, of course). I don't understand. How would she be able to control her blushes there, but not be able to control them when questioned by Ron? We *know* that the Witch Weekly article comes as a complete surprise to her, and she amazingly free of embarrassment. She is more interested in giggling at Ron's vocabulary than in squirming at being again linked to Harry. Angua (previously): > << firmly and repeatedly denies that she is his girlfriend.>>>>>>> > Penny: > I can only think of one time that he does so in her presence and that's when he tells Mrs. Weasley. Of course, maybe it's deliberate that JKR didn't pan back to Hermione to show her reaction in that instance? You're right that if JKR wanted, she could have planted a clue there. But, then again, maybe it's authorial misdirection. Maybe. It's possible. It says in chapter 28 that "Harry was getting sick of telling people that Hermione wasn't his girlfriend." Presumably Hermione was present on at least some of those occasions. But perhaps she blushed fire-engine red, and JKR is choosing to keep it a secret from us. In the Mrs. Weasley incident, one gets the definite impression that Hermione is *pleased* when Harry denies the relationship, and Mrs. Weasley warms up to her again. But I'll admit it doesn't specifically say so. Angua (previously): > <<< romanticising and eroticising impulse.>>>>>>>> > Penny: > Wow. So, that's what a great number of shippers are guilty of, is it? Angua: Well, yes. I thought that was obvious. People sexualize and romanticize Snape/Harry and Lucius/Ginny and Seamus/Dean and Remus/Lily. I think that's pretty clear evidence of the human impulse to eroticise. Penny: > You realize that the H/H ship is probably about the same size as R/H ship at this point? All these people are just insane and stubborn and unwilling to see the One True Light? Really? We all have different interpretations. I don't think the R/H'ers are crazy; I just don't agree with them. Angua: No, I don't realize that. My impression was that many, many more people expect R/H to happen than expect H/H to happen. It is a hard question to quantify, but informal polls and scans of media articles, etc. tend to bear that out. I didn't say anything about insane or crazy. Stubborn, yes. Many people have said they will continue to ship H/H no matter if JKR says Ron and Hermione marry and have eight children. I'd call that stubbornness. :) I believe that the impulse to romanticise can be a very strong one, and confirmation bias obviously exists in all of us. I do not consider the existence of H/H shippers, even intelligent, well- educated ones, to be evidence that H/H is a reasonable expectation at this point, any more than I consider the existence of intelligent, well-educated Harry/Draco shippers (of which there are boatloads) to be evidence that H/D is a reasonable expectation. And there are people who are sincerely and devoutly attached to expectations in the Harry Potter books that I consider to be utterly bizarre and unlikely, *way* more bizarre and unlikely than H/H or H/D. Penny: > > I would also note that even if Ron and Hermione pair off in Book 5, there are 2 more books and a likely epilogue yet to go. ;p Who said something about 'stubborn'? Angua From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Mar 27 02:15:58 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 02:15:58 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: Graveyard scene Message-ID: <3E825EDE.00000C.26555@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 54399 A friend of mine and I were just discussing the fact that whenever Harry has to face Voldemort he always has to do it alone (does anyone think that's significant btw?) when she pointed something out I hadn't noticed. In the graveyard scene in GoF harry and Cedric arrive in the graveyard, they see someone we soon discover is Peter carrying a bundle, which turns out to be Voldemort, Harry hears a high pitched voice (Voldemort) say 'kill the spare' and then another voice (presumably Peter) say 'Avada Kedavra'. So someone other than Voldemort cast the spell and yet Cedric's ghost emerges from *Voldemort's* wand later due to the priori incantum effect. So why is Peter casting the spell with Voldemort's wand? I don't remember whether they said if his wand was found along with his remains after his presumed death but I would assume somewhere in Knockturn Alley or somewhere similar there is somewhere he could get a wand on the black market and I doubt he'd have wanted to go a whole year without one - so why is he using Voldemort's wand? We already know that using another wizard's wand isn't as effective as using your own. K From cristina_angelo at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 01:32:55 2003 From: cristina_angelo at yahoo.com (Cristina Angelo) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 17:32:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Language point that may have been missed In-Reply-To: <00e201c2f3f2$30b68b60$1811570c@pavilion> Message-ID: <20030327013255.78434.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54400 --- FlamingStar Chows wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Eric Oppen > > Later on, even in a very stressful situation, > when she's speaking to > her sister whom she'd > given up for dead in the lake, she's speaking > English. "It was ze > grindylows..." > > > ----Me---- > > I don't think so. First, the book is in English, so > what would they do? > they can't exactly have subtitles like the movies. > I imagine she speaks > whatever language the book is translated into. > > Also, Fleur states that she want to come back to > "work on her English." She > could deliberately be concentrating on speaking > English. By the time the > second task had rolled around, she had already been > at Hogwarts for a number > of months and may be speaking English out of habit > by then. In spite of her > accent, her English may be much better than we > think. > > ~Cathy~ > Peut-tre je peut mettre mes deux cents ici... I don't think there's any situation in the HP books where another language is used. These are children books, and kids don't usually know other languages, and may be slightly put off by translating footnotes. I'm portuguese and live in France. I read PS and CS in portuguese, PoA and Gof in english, but none in french, apart from stuff in sites. In portuguese, for instance, none of the names are translated. In french, school and houses names are translated (Hogwarts becoming PoudLard, making me actually understand the joke...). I know there's someone from Finland here, maybe an input would be interesting. As I currently deal with three languages, my native portuguese, my heart and soul's english, and my everyday life french, I understand your point on she'd been living with English and could automatically blurt out those words in english, out of habit. But considering she's talking half to herself half to her sister IMHO, I'd put it more into a writer's choice of adaptation to its public. Eg, I talk to myself alone a lot, and tend to do it in french now (forced myself to do it in order to learn the language...). But if my emotions are in stake, I'll go from first expressions in french (c'est pas vrai, pas possible, etc) to portuguese. If I'm in danger or in pain, portuguese is my first choice. BTW, if JFK made Krum speak russian in the book, would she use cyrilik? :-) Back to lurking! "Cristina" ===== Reply email: cristina_angelo at yahoo.com http://www.cangelo.novelcity.com http://www.citidep.pt From happydogue at aol.com Thu Mar 27 01:45:01 2003 From: happydogue at aol.com (happydogue at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 20:45:01 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Dursleys' role (was New/Old Friends?) Message-ID: <33.36379e16.2bb3b19d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54401 I don't know if this has been discussed before but could Petunia be a squib? Was that why she was so angry when her sister received the letter and her parents were so happy? Also why she was so adamant that Harry would know nothing of his heritage? What are the genetics involved in being one of the magical folk? Do squibs carry the gene but it isn't expressed? Is it a recessive gene so you must get one from both mother and father to be a witch? Can the gene be passed and the individual not know that they are carrying it until two unaware parents suddenly have a witch or wizard child? Just some thoughts. Rip them apart, I know you will. J From flamingstarchows at att.net Thu Mar 27 02:34:55 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 20:34:55 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Circular room on the cover References: Message-ID: <000c01c2f409$750f1180$201c570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 54402 ----- Original Message ----- From: GKJPO I cannot remember ever having the Astronomy room described to me, so I can't believe it is important. However, I will say this...if JKR starts out book 5 by describing the room in detail, I will sit up and take notice! :) ----Me--- Isn't it mentioned somewhere that Astronomy is on *top* of the tallest tower? It seems like that is where they took Hagrid's dragon to meet Charlie's friends. ~Cathy~ From patricia at obscure.org Thu Mar 27 03:01:42 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 22:01:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: <129.2673ed32.2bb395d7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54403 On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 Meliss9900 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/26/2003 4:49:59 PM Central Standard Time, > siskiou at earthlink.net writes: > > > Hm, but what would his reason be for asking Hermione to go > > to the ball with him? > > > > The way she talks about Krum, and the things she mentions > > about him in conversation make me think there really isn't > > much else that would have motivated, *except* romantic > > feelings. > > > > I'd have to go back and re-read it but I didn't get the impression that she > thought it was especially romantic until they were leaving and he took her > off to ask if she could to visit him in Bulgaria. That didn't happen at the end of GoF just as Krum was leaving. Krum asked Hermione to come visit him right after he rescues her from the lake in the second task. And when Hermione tells Harry and Ron about this later, she adds, "And he *did* say he'd never felt the same way about anyone else." If being chosen as the thing Krum would miss most wasn't enough to clue her in to his feelings, he then comes right out and tells her. I don't think she returns his ardor, but she is quite aware of how he feels. So knowing that, if she chooses to gush to him about another boy she likes more, she's being very selfish and callous. That's not the Hermione we've gotten to know through four books. It's so far out of character for Hermione that I just can't buy it. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 03:14:24 2003 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 19:14:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: SHIP Why I Hate H/G Message-ID: <20030327031424.83654.qmail@web40303.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54404 The brilliant Pippin said: >Harry > and Ginny, on the other hand, do have something sitting in front > of them--they both know what it's like to be haunted by > Voldemort, and unless things change drastically in the > remaining books, that's something Hermione will never know. > Erica countered: <<>> Me: POA 86 The Dementor (US version, hardcover): "Ginny, who was huddled in her corner **looking nearly as bad as Harry felt**, gave a small sob; Hermione went over and put a comforting arm around her. "But didn't any of you -- fall off your seats?" said Harry awkwardly. "No," said Ron, looking anxiously at Harry again. "**Ginny was shaking like mad, though....**" " (my emphasis) What is Ginny's worst memory that would have her reacting "nearly as badly" as Harry's reaction to the Dementors? We know that Harry's worst memory is a direct result of Voldemort. I would assume that Ginny's worst memories have to do with Voldemort/Riddle as well (COS). Even Neville didn't react as strongly as Ginny did (he was "pale" and remarks "It was horrible,"...in a higher voice than usual..."Did you feel how cold it got when it came in?" pg 85, POA US hardcover) and some speculate that Neville witnessed his parents' Cruciatus torture as a toddler and was memory-charmed later. Was Voldemort directly involved in Neville's worst memory? No, he was already Vapormort by then. I know I'm not the first to propose that those who have encountered Voldemort directly would have the "worst" worse memories, and therefore stronger reactions to the Dementors. In other words, just Harry and Ginny (is there anyone else out there that survived when Voldemort tried to kill him/her?). Plus, this is the school year directly after COS for Ginny. Do you really think that she isn't haunted by the memory of what happened to her just a few months ago? Even if she doesn't remember anything about the time she was under Voldemort/Riddle's control, her subconscious remembers. And even if her subconscious doesn't remember, she probably thinks about what she did (under Voldemort's control) to the people at school. I know that would haunt me. All because of one person...Voldemort. I just think that it's very interesting that JKR made sure to mention Ginny's reaction during that scene. It's obviously foreshadowing, but the question is...for what? (I hope it's IsStrongerFromTheExperienceAndChoosesToFightBack!Ginny) ___________________________________________________ Keith said: <<>> That's very interesting, because I don't get that impression at all from Harry. My impression is that he politely endures her blushing and fumbling. He doesn't love it, but he doesn't hate it worse than "eating live scorpions" like you suggest...just politely indifferent. Could someone please help me to understand this impression, backed up by canon? ~Lilac~ ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "So sorry -- dozed off -- what have I missed?" -- Gilderoy Lockhart, COS ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hieya at hotmail.com Thu Mar 27 03:06:30 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 03:06:30 -0000 Subject: Who is the 4th person? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54405 Hi everyone. I have a few questions concerning the Death Eaters: During the Longbottom trial that Harry witnesses in Dumbledore's Pensieve, 4 people were on trial: Crouch Jr., Mr. and Mrs. Lestrange (an assumption, but I think it's valid) and another man. Why does no one mention this man? Sirius told Harry the names of many Death Eaters, and he mentioned that Crouch Jr. and the Lestranges were in Azkaban. Voldemort mentioned the three of them also, and called them "faithful". But why does no one mention the 4th man? He too must have been a faithful Death Eater if he went looking for Voldemort. I don't think this omission is accidental. Also, what happened to the other Death Eaters who were caught? Antonin Dolohov and Augustus Rookwood? (I'm willing to believe that Rosier is dead since Moody seems to have witnessed his death, but we cannot yet be sure if Wilkes or Rosier are alive or not). "greatlit" From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 03:21:11 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 19:21:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Dursleys' role (was New/Old Friends?) In-Reply-To: <33.36379e16.2bb3b19d@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030327032111.23353.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54406 --- J wrote: > I don't know if this has been discussed before but could Petunia be a > squib? > Was that why she was so angry when her sister received the letter and > her > parents were so happy? Also why she was so adamant that Harry would > know > nothing of his heritage? I'm not inclined to think Petunia's a Squib, because it was said at several points that Lily was either a Muggle-born witch or from a Muggle family. However, for proponents of Heir-through-Lily theories, there's nothing against one of the previous descendants having been a Squib, and choosing to live in the Muggle world since they were without magic. Several generations later, who's to say they're not a Muggle family? Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Mar 27 03:41:15 2003 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 19:41:15 -0800 Subject: Dehumanizing (was:Graveyard scene) In-Reply-To: <3E825EDE.00000C.26555@monica> References: <3E825EDE.00000C.26555@monica> Message-ID: <3314601806.20030326194115@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54407 Wednesday, March 26, 2003, 6:15:58 PM, Kathryn Cawte wrote: KC> Harry hears a high pitched voice (Voldemort) say 'kill the spare' KC> and then another voice (presumably Peter) say 'Avada Kedavra'. So someone KC> other than Voldemort cast the spell and yet Cedric's ghost emerges from KC> *Voldemort's* wand later due to the priori incantum effect. So why is Peter KC> casting the spell with Voldemort's wand? I think we have to accept this as JKR exercising artistic license so she can satirize our society's habitual dehumanization of mass deaths -- See my comparative quotes below... (At least V uses the word "kill"!) -- Dave "Kill the spare" -- Lord Voldemort, on the loss of human life "Disassembly of soft components" -- The Pentagon, on the loss of human life From aesob at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 03:55:01 2003 From: aesob at yahoo.com (Alex) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 03:55:01 -0000 Subject: Fawkes, what's in store for OoP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54408 finwitch: > Well, I think that a dialogue between Dumbledore & Harry like... > > "... and I'd like you to take care of Fawkes, Harry" > "But sir, I know nothing about phoenixes" > "Sit down Harry, and I'll tell you everything". > > ... could well take place. Ugh...I never thought of the possibility that quote that's been released would be anything other than Dumledore beginning to tell Harry all about what happened the night his parents died, and perhaps a lot more. I really hope it's not anything so simple as that. I really have to think that JKR asked the publishers to release the book opening (flowerbed) and Dumbledore (everything) quotes because they have significant meaning, not to act as mere teasers for all of us poor salivating fans. Has anyone though about the possibility that by now OoP is probably in the hands of a lot more people than it was two months ago (publishers, proofreaders, people designing and laying out the book, printers, etc...) and that maybe someone out there will leak some of the details? I know, it would spoil the fun of waiting until June (and I'd personally like to read it, not hear about it second-hand)...I'm also sure these people are professionals and their jobs could potentially be on the line if they were caught leaking info, but the possibility is out there, right? Does anyone know if there was any substantiated leaked info from GoF? How tight is security at Scholastic & Bloomsbury and their printers? (Probably better than that of a head-of-state's, eh?...) Just wondering... ~~aesob From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 04:01:33 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 04:01:33 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54409 Angua wrote: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030324213946.00c32d50@pop3.norton.antivirus> <3514108761.20030324155509@earthlink.net> <001c01c2f3f9$80f9b550$140110ac@e97z2grx09q8y3k> Message-ID: <187201543505.20030326195835@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 54410 Hi, Wednesday, March 26, 2003, 4:40:30 PM, Keith wrote: > Suzanne, that's what you think, that's not what some of us think! Um,... yes. Of course it's what *I* think . And I certainly realize that not everybody thinks this way or should ;) > So far Harry does not return Ginny's feelings either - and with Ginny, > I get the distinct impression that he would not rather eat live > scorpions than have anything to do with Ginny. And how did Ginny enter into this post? I don't remember mentioning her as opposed to Hermione as Harry's future love interest. I'm not a H/G shipper, even though I haven't ruled her out, and it's certainly possible she might be the one. We haven't had much in depth interaction between her and Harry, yet, but I certainly didn't get the same impression you got from reading the books (meaning what you said about Harry not wanting anything to do with her to the extend of rather eating scorpions). > The > way H/H interract when alone together precisely makes some of us feel > that they could very well become a couple in the future - Both H/H and > H/R interactions can be called sibling like - check out The Secret > Seven series by Enid Blyton, You'll find patterns for H/H in > Peter/Janet who are siblings and you'll find patterns for R/H in > Jack/Susie who are siblings. Don't forget, Hogwarts was probably based > on Melory Towers series and St Clares series by Blyton. Sorry, never read the series and never heard that HP was based on those two series . I'm only familiar with one Enid Blyton series I read as a kid and don't even know the English title (the German titles always started with "Five Friends..."). -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Thu Mar 27 04:35:32 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 23:35:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New/Old Friends? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030327043532.47024.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54411 Martin said: >Imagine what she'd chat to her neighbours about though >if she came in from hanging out the washing to find toddler >Harry >crawling about the lounge carpet and all her cats turned >purple. >Would the Dursleys risk the shame and embarrassment? And now me: We really don't know for sure how long Mrs Figg has been babysitting Harry. From the Raincoast edition - PS (page 22), we read: "Every year, Harry was left behind with Mrs Figg, a mad old lady who lived two streets away. Harry hated it there. The whole house smelled of cabbage and Mrs Figg made him look at photographs of all the cats she'd ever owned." There is no indication that Mrs Figg may be a friend of the Dursleys, considering that Vernon immediately suggests contacting Petunia's friend Yvonne. I think it is quite likely that Mrs Figg's information was passed along to the Dursleys in the letter originally left for them by Professor Dumbledore. And since they wouldn't want to inflict Harry on any of their friends, felt it would be a fine place to shuffle Harry off to. That way Harry wouldn't be able to embarass them in front of friends or neighbours. Everything for them revolves around IMAGE and it would suit their purposes beautifully that they could shuffle Harry off to a "mad old lady", thereby keeping their own IMAGE clear (in their minds, anyways). Also, since Harry seems opposed to going to Mrs Figgs, all the more reason to send him there. I would love to see Harry be able to visit there during the summer and discover both Sirius and Remus. That would certainly make Harry feel better and the last laugh would be on the Dursleys, don't you think? I really think summer following GoF he needs all the moral support he can get. Lea (who really doesn't like the Dursleys at all and would be very happy to have Harry live with either Sirius or the Weasleys) --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aesob at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 04:37:34 2003 From: aesob at yahoo.com (Alex) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 04:37:34 -0000 Subject: Circular room on the cover In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54412 I really don't think that the room on the cover is any of the rooms that people have mentioned, and here are my reasons: Astronomy room: it doesn't look like a classroom. I recall Trelawny's room being described as stuffy. I imagine a lot of hanging fabrics, cushions, incense and trinkets, not stark walls, glass doors/windows and floating candles. Also the room pictured is too small to be a classroom (IMO). Gryffindor common room or Harry's room: again, I imagine it being furnished with something other than candles, and I think the room pictured is too small to be either of these rooms. Owlery: it's describes as being drafty, but I always imagined that the windows were open directly to the elements (not having glass in the windows). Also, I think the owls would not enjoy living with the magic candles. The candles of course, could be temporary, either a spell that Harry has cast, or a spell that has been put in this room as a challenge for Harry to get past, but... I think the room has to be some new place, probably at Hogwarts, but possibly some other magical place. I do think the room is circular, but it is a very small circle, too small to be a classroom or dormitory. It could be a central staircase-type room at Hogwarts or Azkaban that has doorways leading to rooms on the outside edge of the tower (prison cells or something else?) I know people are guessing that it's one of these rooms that we've already seen because it's something safe that we can relate to, but it seems so empty, and with the magical floating candles and the intense look on Harry's face, I have to think it will be something new, and we'll just have to wait and see where it is... ~~aesob From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 04:46:20 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 04:46:20 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54413 Angua wrote: She questions Ron indignantly on his preference for inviting pretty >girls to the Yule Ball. She seems to feel hurt and offended when >Ron doesn't ask her except as a last resort. Why shouldn't she question Ron? I would. Hermione is at a state where she's realizing world issues, hence SPEW. She's maturing. Where is Ron's state of mind? He obviously prefers to go with an obnoxious person who is pretty than with Eloise who is nice but her nose is crooked. I would definitely be hurt and offended, as well, seeing Ron come to the realization that I am indeed a girl. Angua wrote: No: HPFGUIDX 54414 In a message dated 3/26/2003 8:08:27 PM Central Standard Time, fausts at attglobal.net writes: I have a more in depth post but AOL keeps bumping me, However I HAVE to reply to this. > Melissa: > >I've no doubt it was meant as a supportive kiss but why JKR's need > to draw > >added (its her only hit-over-the-head-with-a-beater's-bat clue) > attention to > >it. > > Angua: > You mean she drew attention to it like this: > > "He had no memory of ever being hugged like this, as though by a > mother"? > > JKR is clearly trying to emphasize the dark seriousness of what Harry > has gone through and what is happening to the wizard world. > *Everyone* is suddenly touching Harry in new, affectionate ways. > Bill Weasley claps him on the shoulder. Fawkes nestles on his lap. > Sirius holds him by the shoulder throughout his talk with > Dumbledore. Molly Weasley hugs him as he's never been hugged > before. Hagrid pulls Harry into a one-armed hug and ruffles his > hair. Ron claps him on the back, which he's never done before except > once after a Quidditch game. Hermione kisses him on the cheek, which > she's never done before. > > Apples and Oranges. None of the people (or bird) you listed are possible romantic partners for Harry. Well in the fan fic world perhaps but we are talking the canon world and I *really* can't see JKR going in those particular directions. And aside from Ron's backslap none of them happened in the last 10 lines (pg 734 Scholastic paperback ed). The more to keep it on the readers mind perhaps? Maybe that boy lying on the garden outside Privet drive is remembering a kiss on the cheek. Its as likely as some of the other speculation I've read. Now off to recompose the rest of it on Works Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Mar 27 04:52:01 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 20:52:01 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60204749775.20030326205201@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 54415 Hi, Wednesday, March 26, 2003, 8:01:33 PM, grace701 wrote: > <"Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not > The way I see it. Ron was continuing to accuse Hermione > of "betraying" Harry. And she just retaliated by saying the above, > that way they won't get into another argument I will never understand why Hermione chose to say what she did, if she truly wasn't partially mad at Ron for being so thick and not admitting to himself or others why he really was acting this way (and *wanting* him to ask her next time). Honestly, there are dozens of other things she could have said, that didn't involve telling Ron to ask her first next time. If she didn't like him, that's just about the *last* thing she should have said. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu Mar 27 04:58:15 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 23:58:15 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? Message-ID: <8.35e0d353.2bb3dee7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54416 In a message dated 3/26/2003 10:47:21 PM Central Standard Time, grace701 at yahoo.com writes: > Hey Melissa! > He already is thinking about it!? ;) Gulplum made it clear to me > that this last chapter is Harry recalling the events after June 24th, > the day of the Third Task, a month later (July 24). Now, I know this > whole conversation has been about Hermione and it *IS* definitely a > possibility that she did give him a friendly kiss. *BUT* just to > switch to Harry for a minute. Harry recalling something Hermione has > never done before? Something she did a month earlier? Hmmm....makes > me think about *why* he's recalling that small "insignificant" kiss? I just looked that up. .it dies sound like he's recalling it all doesn't it hmmmmm. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu Mar 27 04:59:58 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 23:59:58 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? Message-ID: <49.2ca53cd5.2bb3df4e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54417 In a message dated 3/26/2003 10:57:40 PM Central Standard Time, siskiou at earthlink.net writes: > Honestly, there are dozens of other things she could have > said, that didn't involve telling Ron to ask her first next > time. > > If she didn't like him, that's just about the *last* thing > she should have said. > > Oh I dunno. It did succeed in shutting him up. That might have been enough of a motivation for her to say it. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 05:03:26 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 05:03:26 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? and Why I hate the H/G Ship In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030327000152.00b56008@mail.v21.me.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54418 Martin wrote: >Melissa has pretty much voiced my thoughts there. I'm also putting >store on what JKR is quoted as saying at an interview (I forget >which but I read it on here in the last 36 hours): "People are in >love with the wrong people at the moment" (paraphrased). >I think Ron is 'wrongly' leaning to Hermione and Harry 'wrongly' to >Cho. Maybe even Krum 'wrongly' to Hermione. I think, given the >centrality of the two main characters that we are looking at an >(eventual) Harry and Hermione bonding. I hope something develops in >OoP, but if it does it will be very much a love born in warfare and >turmoil so a pretty firmly founded one and not anything soppy. >Hermione isn't the soppy type anyway ;) >Was there not also a hug between H/Hr at the end of CoS, or am I >thinking of the film version? I hope JKR is thinking exactly what you're thinking Martin. Although, I get the feeling Ron and Hermione will be together in OoP, but we still have books 6 & 7. The hug was in book 1, actually, right before Harry went off to see Quirrelmort. The CoS hug was in the movie, but I heard that the movies have their own clues. ;) And that's enough of movies! We'll get in trouble! =) Greicy From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Mar 27 05:03:26 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 21:03:26 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: <49.2ca53cd5.2bb3df4e@aol.com> References: <49.2ca53cd5.2bb3df4e@aol.com> Message-ID: <140205434743.20030326210326@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 54419 Hi, Wednesday, March 26, 2003, 8:59:58 PM, Meliss9900 wrote: > Oh I dunno. It did succeed in shutting him up. Yes, because of what it implied (imo). Because she was telling him that she knew what all this really was about, and she even had a solution. Ask me first next time! If she was really just mad at him and didn't like him beyonf friendship, she could have neatly avoided future problems by shutting him up with a different line. Why even bring up future balls, if it was all about Ron accusing her of betraying Harry and her being furius about it? It just makes no sense. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Thu Mar 27 05:12:46 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 05:12:46 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?We=92ve_Seen_Candles_(filk)?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54420 OK, this filk is going to seem pathetic after Haggridd's brilliant Transfiguration but nevertheless Book Five's cover must still be celebrated We've Seen Candles To the tune of Sixteen Candles by the Crests Hear this song at: http://www.buffnet.net/~ambrosia/page2.htm Dedicated to all those who contributed to the thread on HP4GU regarding Book Five's cover. http://www.the-leaky- cauldron.org/images/2003/03/HarryPotterPhoenixAmerican.jpg THE SCENE: An HP fan confronts the mystery of Book Five's Cover. Harry's stairway, scary stairway, maybe I'm puzzled so We've seen candles Round a winding stair But what's up there? Our boy best beware! Let's get a handle Why's the light so blue? What's through those doorways? What's Rowling up to? Now Harry's fifteen Is this a crucial scene? It's the grooviest, the Grandpr?-fest fans Can't wait to see Cryptic Candles So mysterious Could our hero now prove Ambidextri-ous? Now Harry's fifteen Is this some awful dream? The red herring-est, daring-est spoil- -Er of her theme Umpteen candles Is Harry a ghost? No Book Six or Seven If he overdosed For we want to know... - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (updated 3.26.03 with 41 new filks) From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 05:14:54 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 05:14:54 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: <60204749775.20030326205201@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54421 Susanne wrote: > If she didn't like him, that's just about the *last* thing > she should have said. I think I'm one of the few H/Hers that believe Hermione does like Ron. So what she said could have implied that she likes him. But we only got to hear the end of the argument not the whole thing, so we'll never know what she truly meant by it. Greicy, who wishes JKR didn't have Cedric talk to Harry so that I could hear what Ron and Hermione were arguing about all that time From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 05:22:30 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 05:22:30 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: <8.35e0d353.2bb3dee7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54422 grace701 writes: clear to me that this last chapter is Harry recalling the events >after June 24th, the day of the Third Task, a month later (July 24). >Now, I know this whole conversation has been about Hermione and it >*IS* definitely a possibility that she did give him a friendly kiss. >*BUT* just to switch to Harry for a minute. Harry recalling >something Hermione has never done before? Something she did a month >earlier? Hmmm....makes me think about *why* he's recalling that >small "insignificant" kiss? Melissa wrote: >I just looked that up. .it dies sound like he's recalling it all >doesn't it hmmmmm. Yes it does, Melissa. I also happen to think that July 24th is the day that Harry is left alone lying on the flowerbed. ;) Greicy, who will join Melissa to say hhhmmmm..... =) Anyone else want to join? From conquistas2000 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 05:41:11 2003 From: conquistas2000 at yahoo.com (conquistas2000) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 05:41:11 -0000 Subject: OotP Cover/Candles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54423 This is just pure speculation, but perhaps the candles each candle represent a life of a witch/wizard. In CoS, at the Nearly Headless Nick's Deathday party, the candles at the ghost's party is black w/ blue flames (correct me if I am wrong, cuss I don't have the books w/ me at the moment). Perhaps this is the important detail in CoS that will also appear in OotP. And the flame of a candle is used to represent life. And heck, the flames going to the side reminds me of Elton John's song "Candle in the Wind" (Lyrics at http://www.eltonography.com/songs/candle_in_the_wind.html). Thus, with the revival of Voldemort, then Voldemort represent the "wind" trying to "blow" out the "candles" in the room. And the Room that Harry is in is magical in the sense that the room contain "magical" candles, whereas each candle represent the life of a witch/wizard. And Harry is force to watch the flame of each candle "going out". Conquistas - Who have no idea what he is rambling about. From fausts at attglobal.net Thu Mar 27 05:43:02 2003 From: fausts at attglobal.net (anguaorc) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 05:43:02 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54424 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: > The way I see it. Ron was continuing to accuse Hermione > of "betraying" Harry. And she just retaliated by saying the above, > that way they won't get into another argument. Angua: So Hermione is proposing to go to the next ball with Ron because, bad as that is, it's better than arguing? Will she have to go to all future balls with him for that reason? That's just bizarre. I don't think your theory makes sense. If Ron is accusing Hermione of "betraying Harry" at that moment, her reference to the next ball is a meaningless non sequitur. Unless you think they're assuming that when the next ball happens, Harry will again be involved in some kind of contest and Hermione will again be invited by one of his competitors? He *must* have said something a little more general than that, such as "you shouldn't have gone with that guy." Hermione is not the girl to make illogical remarks. And now to Melissa's post: > Apples and Oranges. None of the people (or bird) you listed are possible > romantic partners for Harry. Well in the fan fic world perhaps but we are > talking the canon world and I *really* can't see JKR going in those > particular directions. Angua: No, they're not, are they? And Hermione's kiss is right in there with them, serving the same purpose, associating her with all those other non-romantic prospects. Harry's "family" is rallying around him. Melissa: And aside from Ron's backslap none of them happened > in the last 10 lines (pg 734 Scholastic paperback ed). The more to keep it on > the readers mind perhaps? Angua: But *this* happened only one line before your "magic" ten-line mark, and was also on the last page: ***Mrs. Weasley was close by him. She hugged Harry very tightly when she saw him and whispered in his ear, "I think Dumbledore will let you come to us later in the summer. Keep in touch, Harry."*** Dude, together with all that fuss Harry made about that "first-ever" motherly hug she gave him at the end of the previous chapter, and the way she kissed him on the cheek in Chapter 31, I'm starting to convert to Harry/Molly after all. Melissa: Maybe that boy lying on the garden outside Privet > drive is remembering a kiss on the cheek. Its as likely as some of the other > speculation I've read. Angua: No worries. We'll know the answer to that soon enough. And if he is, I'll cheerfully come here and formally concede it to you as a HUGE point in favor of H/H. If he doesn't, I'll continue to cherish that kiss as a sign of the deep platonic love Hermione feels for Harry. And if Harry doesn't think about or refer to it once in OoP (whether in the flowerbed or anywhere else), maybe you'd like to come on here and concede a point to me? > Now off to recompose the rest of it on Works ::wince:: I feel your pain. Angua From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Thu Mar 27 07:56:15 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 01:56:15 -0600 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? and Why I hate the H/G Ship Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54425 Martin wrote: Melissa has pretty much voiced my thoughts there. I'm also putting store on what JKR is quoted as saying at an interview (I forget which but I read it on here in the last 36 hours): "People are in love with the wrong people at the moment" (paraphrased). I think Ron is 'wrongly' leaning to Hermione and Harry 'wrongly' to Cho. Maybe even Krum 'wrongly' to Hermione. I think, given the centrality of the two main characters that we are looking at an (eventual) Harry and Hermione bonding. I hope something develops in OoP, but if it does it will be very much a love born in warfare and turmoil so a pretty firmly founded one and not anything soppy. Hermione isn't the soppy type anyway ;) I reply: I've always thought of that JKR reference as referring to the "crushes." Harry has a crush on Cho, Hermione has SOME sort of relationship with Krum, and Ron has a crush on Fleur. I never read this as referring to Hermione, since Ron doesn't really "fall" for her in this book, IMO, he just realizes what was already there. Hobbit-guy, who, despite his intended neutrality, leans toward a H/R ship status (but you didn't hear that from me...) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You haven't been getting into the Gaffer's home brew again, have you?" "No... Well, yes, but that's beside the point." -Frodo and Bilbo Baggins, Fellowship of the Rings Extended Edition DVD From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 08:37:12 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 08:37:12 -0000 Subject: What Can Apparate? My Theory In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030326234519.00b5d950@mail.v21.me.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54426 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Martin Soilleux-Cardwell wrote: > > > > I asked: > > > > How did the Durmstrang ship get into Hogwarts lake if it > > > > didn't apparate there? > > > >Steve (bboy_mn): > > > >Apparation: > >My theory is that you can apparate with anything you can possess. > > [snip] > > >Transfer Charm: > >We have seen many examples of what, for lack of a better name, > >I call Transfer Charms. Dumbledore ... sleeping bags ... > > [snippety snip] > > >Water Travel: > > [snip snippy snip] > > But my question remains unanswered: How does the ship get there? > ...edited... > > So - it must have arrived physically. ... I .. thought of > underground rivers, or at least a surface feeder river from the > lake to a point outside Hogwarts into which the ship *could* > apparate, then submerge to surface on the Hogwarts lake. Messy > though. Can't say I like it. > > ...edited... > > Regards > Martin bboy_mn: Well, the real answer is there is no answer. The best we can do is dig into our imaginations and make reasonable speculations about how it is likely to happen. It is likely that Drumstang is in an area of Russia that is north east of Finland (near the city of Murmansk, Russia). If that is true, then you can get within a few miles (of course, that distance and route depend on where you think Hoqwarts is) of Hogwarts by sailing ship via a route Barent Sea west around northern Norway, then south west to northern Scotland, south into the Moray Firth then via Loch Ness, Beauly Firth, or Cromarty Firth, then by river to one of the inland lakes. Although, the maps I have aren't clear enough, there are many rivers leading inland into the Scotish Highlands from the ocean. I don't get the impression that the lake at Hogwarts is feed by any significant rivers, so that would mean it is mostly spring feed and feed by a few small streams. However, it is probably connected to the major underground aquifer in that area and that would provide the final route into the lake. Here is a link to a map of the possible locations of Hogwarts. At least according to me; personally I favor area (1). Sorry, rivers don't show up very well on this map. http://www.homestead.com/BlueMoonMarket/Files/Hogwarts/hogwarts1.htm So if you assume magic will allow a sailing ship to travel a short distance through the aquifers then an all water route to Hogwarts is quite possible. Just a thought. bboy_mn From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 08:46:58 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 08:46:58 -0000 Subject: The Dursleys' role /Wizards&Logic In-Reply-To: <20030327032111.23353.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54427 Andrea: > I'm not inclined to think Petunia's a Squib, because it was said at > several points that Lily was either a Muggle-born witch or from a Muggle > family. However, for proponents of Heir-through-Lily theories, there's > nothing against one of the previous descendants having been a Squib, and > choosing to live in the Muggle world since they were without magic. > Several generations later, who's to say they're not a Muggle family? Good point - as Lily and Petunia's parents *were* Muggles. But another matter, Fudge in PoA tells Harry how he really would go back to Dursleys later, them being his family and all (sharing biological line), while Harry most definately does not want to spend time with Dursleys (because of how they choose to treat him)... Also, seeing how some full wizard families occasionally produce a squip (like Filch?) or someone weak in magic, I doubt it's genetical at all, nor a matter of choices, nor environment. And... well, just thinking how few wizards (so far, I think Harry can and will do anything only few wizards can do) can manage logic (Harry & the sphinx - so Harry can do it), this probably being why potions is underrated (requires most logic of all subjects) and why most wizards believe everything they read (making Rita Skeeter very powerful). I think that many wizards are so incapable of logic because magic is NOT logical. Logic would suggest that a trunk is smaller from the inside - but magical trunks are bigger from the inside. Tax-matter is somewhat similar - magical places don't take much of space, if at all. Like Diagon Alley - the wall behind Leaking Cauldron is the only part of Diagon Alley in the Muggle World. Ever heard anyone paying tax for a wall? Any place will do, as long as you can't see what's on the other side, though preferably one where Muggles don't usually go to. As it is with these 'magical genes': I don't think magic would submit to Muggle science like that. Magic is the 1% in something a Muggle would find 99% certain... -- Finwitch From abaron at erols.com Thu Mar 27 07:44:36 2003 From: abaron at erols.com (Ari Baronofsky) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 02:44:36 -0500 Subject: The Boy Who Lived Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54428 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 02:47:48 -0500 In the Hebrew translation, "The boy who lived" is translated as "the boy who remained alive." this seems to lend credence to the "Harry beat death" idea. "Ari" From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 09:15:42 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 09:15:42 -0000 Subject: Graveyard scene In-Reply-To: <3E825EDE.00000C.26555@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54429 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: >Harry hears a high pitched voice (Voldemort) say 'kill the spare' > and then another voice (presumably Peter) say 'Avada Kedavra'. So someone > other than Voldemort cast the spell and yet Cedric's ghost emerges from > *Voldemort's* wand later due to the priori incantum effect. So why is Peter > casting the spell with Voldemort's wand? > I don't remember whether they said if his wand was found along with his > remains after his presumed death but I would assume somewhere in Knockturn > Alley or somewhere similar there is somewhere he could get a wand on the > black market... But, dead people don't go shopping. In order to pretend his "death" Pettigrew would have had to leave his wand behind. He's using Voldemort's wand because he doesn't have one of his own and because he's acting on Voldemort's order. Dumbledore tells the children that Lord Voldemort murdered Cedric Diggory. It's not a lie; it just shows something about commands: It's the one giving command who's *doing* it, the one obeying is just a tool - or a piece in wizard chess. Dumbledore himself *never* gives orders. "I must ask of you" is strongest suggestion to command he ever gives out - or did I miss something? After all, when it's a request, it's much easier to stop in case you change your mind on new information/some other reason... we'll see what will happen. -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 09:44:18 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 09:44:18 -0000 Subject: Who is the 4th person? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54430 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatlit2003" wrote: > Hi everyone. I have a few questions concerning the Death Eaters: > During the Longbottom trial that Harry witnesses in Dumbledore's > Pensieve, 4 people were on trial: Crouch Jr., Mr. and Mrs. Lestrange > (an assumption, but I think it's valid) and another man. Why does no > one mention this man? Sirius told Harry the names of many Death > Eaters, and he mentioned that Crouch Jr. and the Lestranges were in > Azkaban. Voldemort mentioned the three of them also, and called > them "faithful". But why does no one mention the 4th man? He too > must have been a faithful Death Eater if he went looking for > Voldemort. I don't think this omission is accidental. Well - his identity will be important, I believe; That person *could* be anyone, even a female who's using polyjuice potion; We just don't know. We don't know if Crouch Jr had anything to do with the torture, only that he's DE, though Crouch Jr does use Crucio until someone stops him as if he were unable to do so on his own - which *does* fit with Longbottoms destiny; but even style isn't proper evidence. But I have one guess of this person's identity: Romulus Lupin, a twin-brother to Remus Lupin, who went to Durmstrang, thus explaining partly why Sirius doubted Remus to be the traitor AND Sirius' extreme care about Durmstrang students later? -- Finwitch From steinber at inter.net.il Thu Mar 27 10:43:09 2003 From: steinber at inter.net.il (asandhp) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 10:43:09 -0000 Subject: names, Snape and a bit of SHIP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54431 I think that JKR's names, like Sprout for a Herbology teacher, Lockheart for a heart-throb, etc. can all be completely divorced from the WW's "real life." Imagine, if you will, a real life story published with "all the names have been changed to protect the privacy of those involved." You get the exact story, the authentic characters, etc, but as the names have been invented, the editor can make up whatever suits or entertains him/her. Probably Lupin's "real name" is Joe Martin, but that was too boring, so JKR "changed" it to Remus Lupin when she "set the story down." Different topic: I find it very interesting that Snape seems to fulfill the same role for HP fans that Spock did for Star Trek fans: dark, mysterious, and almost impossible to get the affections of. People seem very attracted to them because they are so "hard to get." What is even more interesting is that in every other way, Snape and Spock are very different: Snape is very emotional and not very nice, whereas Spock was extremely logical and quite considerate. For those who go for this kind of thing, comparing Dumbledore- McGonagall-Snape to Kirk-McCoy-Spock is intriguing for the differences possible in two equally well-received (by fans) governing trios. The Star Trek trio was decisions/emotions/reason, while the HP trio is reason+warmth/reason+cold/reason+passion with decisions on all sides. On the romantic front (meaning the effect on fans), ST was macho/sweet/seductive, while HP is sweet?/"macho?"/seductive. Comments and additions, anyone? Last topic: I've voted for Snape+Fleur as a Darcy+Jane Bennet pair, but I'm beginning to wonder whether it wouldn't be just as much fun to see JKR producing an evil-couple-in-love. As I've written, I consider Snape an evil person no matter how loyal he might be to the "right side." Just because you are supporting a good person with good aims doesn't make you a good person yourself. For that, you have to be kind to people, which Snape is not. Rowling called him "sadistic" herself (see the interview quoted somewhere in the last digest or three). Anyway, if JKR doesn't give us a good time with some love-hate Snape- Rita Skeeter courtship scenes, could some of you talented fanfic writers make them up? And then tell me where to look for them? Thanks, The Admiring Skeptic From suzloua at hotmail.com Thu Mar 27 11:28:59 2003 From: suzloua at hotmail.com (Susan Atherton) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 11:28:59 -0000 Subject: Can the Marauder's Map be deceived? (and more questions) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54432 I said: > I think all the teachers who taught her - so that's Vector, Sinistra, > McGonagall, Snape, Flitwick, Lupin, Sprout, and whoever teaches Muggle > Studies, plus anyone else I've forgotten - knew about her TT. > Gina pissed on my bonfire with: While you raise an interesting point, I think the answer is no. Because Dumbledore tells Snape outside the infirmary that there is no way H&H could be in two places at once. If Snape knew Hermione had a TT, he would?ve immediately made the leap and suspected her of using it. I now say: Doh. Oops! ~wishes Cuaron would hurry up so she can blame movie contamination~ Susan ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "Help me Jebus!" --Homer Simpson "Shame on you! Ugly baby judges you!" --Ross Geller "Oh yeah, and did I mention I've got a baby?" --Stuart Alan Jones "You know, I telephoned my grandparents the other day, and my grandfather said to me, 'We saw your movie.' 'Which one?' I said, and he shouted, 'Betty, what was the name of that movie I didn't like?'" --Brad Pitt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From saddletank at v21.me.uk Thu Mar 27 12:35:53 2003 From: saddletank at v21.me.uk (saddletank) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 04:35:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? Message-ID: <6894623.1048768553109.JavaMail.Administrator@atp> No: HPFGUIDX 54433 Hi again all Re: H/H, R/H and Krum/H... A fascinating discussion and one that's taking up too much of my time at work ;) I can't add to it, and this is probably irrelevant, but I just had a scene from GoF pop into my head (as this scene does from time to time). With all the murder, lies, mayhem and corruption at the end of GoF some scenes get pushed aside but the one that sticks in my mind is a distant view of a girl and a boy walking along the muddy lakeside early one damp autumn morning, munching toast, talking about stuff and looking out over the misty water. I don't know why that image is so powerful with me. It must be just a classic romantic scene ;) All that's missing is them skimming stones. Regards Martin "...I want to fix that in my memory for ever," said Ron, his eyes closed and an uplifted expression on his face. "Draco Malfoy, the amazing bouncing ferret..." From keithmascarenhas at hotpop.com Thu Mar 27 09:43:27 2003 From: keithmascarenhas at hotpop.com (Keith Mascarenhas) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 15:13:27 +0530 Subject: SHIP Why I Hate H/G - Attn: Lilac Message-ID: <000201c2f451$51624c00$140110ac@e97z2grx09q8y3k> No: HPFGUIDX 54434 Lilac wrote: "I just think that it's very interesting that JKR made sure to mention Ginny's reaction during that scene. It's obviously foreshadowing, but the questionis...for what? (I hope it'sIsStrongerFromTheExperienceAndChoosesToFightBack!Ginny)" As you asked, what's the foreshadowing for ? As much as I hate to say it, it could be for evilGinny or weakGinny! The problem is that we don't know yet, but to my mind, it does not necessarily foreshadow a relationship, and if it does,the ground work for a possible relationship has not properly been laid out as yet and was certainly not laid out in COS/POA/GOF. It could also possibly foreshadow a relationship between Neville and Ginny who were not as badly effected with the dementors as Harry was. Putting Harry in the picture may signify that Harry may initially, albeit unintentionally, come in between a future Neville and Ginny relationship because of her feelings for "The Boy Who Lived". Lilac said: "That's very interesting, because I don't get that impression at all from Harry.My impression is that he politely endures her blushing and fumbling. He doesn't love it, but he doesn't hate it worse than "eating live scorpions" likeyou suggest...just politely indifferent. Could someone please help me to understand this impression, backed up by canon?" Okay, let me try to clarify this - I did not say that he hates her blushing and fumbling worse than "eating live scorpions". I said that he'd prefer eating live scorpions to having a relationship or dating Ginny. It is not explicitly mentioned in the canon, but certain inferences can be made from the way Harry behaves with her. It is very clear that he doesn't want to date her, and , as said before, would probably rather eat live scorpions than go out with her! This is because, he knows that she's got a crush on "The Boy Who lived". He's seen it since the beginning - UKPB PS C6 PG73 'Hey Mum, guess what? Guess who we just met on the train train?' Harry leant back quickly so they couldn't see him looking 'You know the black-haired boy who was near us in the station? Know who he is?' 'Who?' 'Harry Potter!' Harry heard the little girls voice. 'Oh Mum, Can I go on the train and see him, Mum,oh please...' Prior to this conversation, Molly helps Harry get onto platform 9 3/4, from the muggle platform. At this point, it is obvious that Ginny seen him, but is not crushing about him yet, because he looks like any other boy and because his scar is hidden underneath a mop of hair - so it's not love at first site, for Ginny, is it ? Only when she KNOWS that he is the famous Harry Potter, does she feel the need to see him on the train ? With me so far ? We know how Harry himself views his celebrity status with a bit of distaste - he's certainly not comfortable with being a celebrity. In COS, We know how he treats fellow celebrity Gilderoy Lockhart because Lockhart goes out of his way to seek fame. We know how he treats Colin Creevey - okay, I'll grant you that Creevey is a nuisance! Plus we all know what he thinks of Rita Skeeter . Now let's go back to Ginny's crush - what's her crush all about - it's all about meeting/knowing the famous "Boy Who Lived". Do you think Harry's comfortable with this ? Do you think Harry would want to go out or have a relationship with someone who has a crush on him solely because he's famous ? And that's the cornerstone of Ginny's crush, isnt it? There's a lovely little paragraph in UKPB GOF C22 PG339 Hermione's words about Krum kept coming back to him.'They only like him because he's famous!" Harry doubted very much if any of the girls who had asked to be his partner so far would have wanted to go to the ball with him if he hadn't been school champion. Then he wondered if this would bother him if Cho asked him. Think about Hermione's lines about the Krum's fans and Krum 'They only like him because he is famous' - now what's the cornerstone of Ginny's crush on Harry ? To dig it in a little more, let me repeat an extract from UKPB PS C6 PG73 'You know the black-haired boy who was near us in the station? Know who he is?' 'Who?' 'Harry Potter!' Harry heard the little girls voice. 'Oh Mum, Can I go on the train and see him, Mum,oh please...' So can you ever picture Harry asking Ginny out, willingly ? Back to UKPB GOF C22 PG345 Harry and Ron are getting increasingly worried about finding dates to the ball: And still Harry Hadn't asked Cho to the ball. He and Ron were getting a little nervous now, though as Harry Pointed out, Ron would look much less stupid than he wouldwithout a partner; Harry was supposed to be starting out the dancing with the other champions. 'I suppose there's always Moaning Myrtle,' he said gloomily, referring to the ghost who haunted the girl's toilet on the second floor. It is strange that Harry does not even consider asking Ginny out at this point especially since both Ron and Harry openly know that she, Ginny like Myrtle fancies him! Proof : UKPB COS C17 P240 'Urgh!' said Ron, as they left the bathroom for the dark deserted corridor outside. 'Harry! I think Myrtle's got fond of you! you've got competition, Ginny!' To further prove my point, I take you to the conversation Ron has with Hermione and Ginny asking them to go with Harry and him to the Yule Ball - Notice one thing - Harry's stony silence (and he's not shocked by the girl's attitude, not one bit bothered mind you; even though Ron is) during the conversation and after - Harry seems totally indifferent towards the whole incident, even though it seems evident that Ginny regrets accepting Neville's invitation! UKPB GOF C22 PGS 348-349. (read it for yourself) To me it seems evident that he'd rather go out with a ghost or entertain scorpions than go out on a date with someone who has a crush on him just because he's "The Boy Who Lived" - Need I say more ? Lilac said: "My impression is that he politely endures her blushing and fumbling" That's a very reasonable impression you've got there about Harry politely enduring her blushing and fumbling, but have you asked yourself why he politely endures her blushing and fumbling and why he, on the other hand treats the Creevey boys and Gilderoy Lockhart like sh*t ? The reason, I suspect, is to do with the Weasley family: 1) The Weasley's (particularly Mrs. Weasley) treats him as part of their family - would it be gratitude if he treated Ginny like the Creevey boys and Lockhart ? So what does he do ? he talks to her if she talks to him but ignores her otherwise. Keith [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 13:13:15 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 13:13:15 -0000 Subject: Who is the 4th person? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54435 Finwitch said: > But I have one guess of this person's identity: > > Romulus Lupin, a twin-brother to Remus Lupin, who went to Durmstrang, > thus explaining partly why Sirius doubted Remus to be the traitor AND > Sirius' extreme care about Durmstrang students later? > Possibly, but why would their parents send them to different schools? It seems like if Dumbledore was willing to take Remus he would also take his brother. Serena From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 14:02:35 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 14:02:35 -0000 Subject: Fawkes, what's in store for OoP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54436 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > finwitch: > > Well, I think that a dialogue between Dumbledore & Harry like... > > > > "... and I'd like you to take care of Fawkes, Harry" > > "But sir, I know nothing about phoenixes" > > "Sit down Harry, and I'll tell you everything". > > > > ... could well take place. > > Ugh...I never thought of the possibility that quote that's been > released would be anything other than Dumledore beginning to > tell Harry all about what happened the night his parents died, > and perhaps a lot more. I really hope it's not anything so simple > as that. I believe the quote was "Sit down Harry, and I'll tell you everything I should have told you five years ago." To me this indicates that he is finally going to answer the questions Harry had at the end of CoS. Serena From gingerssnape1966 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 14:51:29 2003 From: gingerssnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingerssnape1966) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 14:51:29 -0000 Subject: Who is the 4th person? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54437 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatlit2003" wrote: > Hi everyone. I have a few questions concerning the Death Eaters: > During the Longbottom trial that Harry witnesses in Dumbledore's > Pensieve, 4 people were on trial: Crouch Jr., Mr. and Mrs. Lestrange > (an assumption, but I think it's valid) and another man. Why does no > one mention this man? (snippalot) Me: Ah, greatlit, you have come to the right place! Actually, to go to the right place, I suggest you go to Fantastic Posts and Where to Find Them. The address is in the hbfile. When you get there, click on Hypothetic Alley, and then, Fourth Man. There you (and anyone else interested) will find a wonderful theory about 4th Man Avery. Then, if you would like more, go to message #50423 and see the Third Man Dolohov and Third Man Nott theories. We welcome any new theories you may have. Ginger From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu Mar 27 14:52:31 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 09:52:31 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? Message-ID: <191.17465441.2bb46a2f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54438 In a message dated 3/26/2003 11:44:14 PM Central Standard Time, fausts at attglobal.net writes: > Angua: > So Hermione is proposing to go to the next ball with Ron because, bad > as that is, it's better than arguing? Will she have to go to all > future balls with him for that reason? That's just bizarre. > > All she said was said "ask me first next time" she never said that she say yes ;-). \ Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu Mar 27 15:08:29 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 10:08:29 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54439 In a message dated 3/26/2003 11:44:14 PM Central Standard Time, fausts at attglobal.net writes: > Angua: > No, they're not, are they? And Hermione's kiss is right in there > with them, serving the same purpose, associating her with all those > other non-romantic prospects. Harry's "family" is rallying around > him. > That would be a pausible scenario IF the kiss happened at the same time that Molly was hugging him in a motherly fashion, or Bill was slapping his back, Or Fawkes was nestling on his leg or Sirius was lending support ect. It didn't. It happened within the last 10 lines of the book. Right after Ron clapped him on the back (and presumably walked away . .I say presumably because although we don't see it happen, walking away after saying good bye is the usual course of action). After all his mother was already at the barrier had said goodbye. So it really is apples and oranges And as Greicy pointed out, the beginning of the last chapter seems to start with Harry "remembering" the events afterwards. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu Mar 27 15:19:12 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 10:19:12 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? Message-ID: <184.188ff1ed.2bb47070@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54440 In a message dated 3/26/2003 11:44:14 PM Central Standard Time, fausts at attglobal.net writes: > Angua: > No worries. We'll know the answer to that soon enough. And if he > is, I'll cheerfully come here and formally concede it to you as a > HUGE point in favor of H/H. > > If he doesn't, I'll continue to cherish that kiss as a sign of the > deep platonic love Hermione feels for Harry. And if Harry doesn't > think about or refer to it once in OoP (whether in the flowerbed or > anywhere else), maybe you'd like to come on here and concede a point > to me? > No problem. I never had a serious problem with R/H until GoF. Something in that book just set me off of him. I was discussing it with my sister (who leans R/H. .this is actually this first time that we've ever been on "opposing sides" in a pairing .. although she has no problems with H/H) and I think its the maturity level that's getting to me. Granted they are just 14 y.o. but he seems younger compared to Hermione's. Even to Harry's .. but I guess someone trying to kill you on a yearly basis will make you a bit more serious. And I've known a few grown men (related to a few infact) that have never managed to make it beyond teenage levels of maturity I also kinda think that JKR likes messing with our minds. There will be just enough hints both ways to keep us going until Book 6 ;-) > >Now off to recompose the rest of it on Works > > ::wince:: I feel your pain. > > > Angua > I gave up last night. I'm going to do it at work today. The 5th time I got booted was enough. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 16:07:41 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:07:41 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew's Wandlessness (WAS: Graveyard scene) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54441 Kathryn Cawte wrote: > So why is Peter casting the spell with Voldemort's wand? I don't > remember whether they said if his wand was found along with his > remains after his presumed death but I would assume somewhere in > Knockturn Alley or somewhere similar there is somewhere he could > get a wand on the black market... and Finwitch responded: > But, dead people don't go shopping. In order to pretend his "death" > Pettigrew would have had to leave his wand behind. He's using > Voldemort's wand because he doesn't have one of his own and because > he's acting on Voldemort's order. Now me: In Ch. 10, PoA, Fudge says: "And Black standing there laughing, with what was left of Pettigrew in front of him...a heap of blood-stained robes and a few - a few fragments - ". In Ch. 19 of PoA, Sirius says: "...he [Pettigrew] blew apart the street with the wand behind his back, killed everyone within twenty feet of himself - and sped down into the sewer with the other rats..." and Lupin says: "The biggest bit of Peter they found was his finger." There's no mention of what happened to Pettigrew's wand after he faked his death. When Scabbers is forced to reveal himself as Pettigrew, there is no mention of him possessing a wand. Moreover, Pettigrew grabs Lupin's wand when Lupin turns into a werewolf, and he uses it to stun Ron - presumably, if Pettigrew had his own wand, he wouldn't have needed to take Lupin's. These references lead me to believe that Pettigrew did not take his wand with him when he "sped into the sewer" as a rat after accusing Sirius of betraying the Potters. And I agree with Finwitch that it would be difficult for him to purchase a new wand without blowing his cover (also, wands are fairly expensive, and it's unclear whether he had any money with him). And once he connected with Voldemort, it was in Voldemort's interest to keep him wandless in order to keep Pettigrew firmly under his control. ~Phyllis From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 16:12:01 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:12:01 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54442 grace701 wrote: >The way I see it. Ron was continuing to accuse Hermione >of "betraying" Harry. And she just retaliated by saying the above, >that way they won't get into another argument. Angua: >So Hermione is proposing to go to the next ball with Ron because, >bad as that is, it's better than arguing? Will she have to go to >all future balls with him for that reason? That's just bizarre. >I don't think your theory makes sense. If Ron is accusing Hermione >of "betraying Harry" at that moment, her reference to the next ball >is a meaningless non sequitur. Unless you think they're assuming >that when the next ball happens, Harry will again be involved in >some kind of contest and Hermione will again be invited by one of >his competitors? >He *must* have said something a little more general than that, such >as "you shouldn't have gone with that guy." Hermione is not the >girl to make illogical remarks. Okay you got me. I was hanging on to a piece of thread and you cut it for me. ;) Melissa: >Maybe that boy lying on the garden outside Privet drive is >remembering a kiss on the cheek. Its as likely as some of the >other speculation I've read. Angua: >No worries. We'll know the answer to that soon enough. And if he >is, I'll cheerfully come here and formally concede it to you as a >HUGE point in favor of H/H. >If he doesn't, I'll continue to cherish that kiss as a sign of the >deep platonic love Hermione feels for Harry. And if Harry doesn't >think about or refer to it once in OoP (whether in the flowerbed or >anywhere else), maybe you'd like to come on here and concede a >point to me? I'll admit that I can concede that for now it looks like Hermione has a crush on Ron. Ron liking Hermione is more than obvious so I don't need to concede that. :D Greicy, who can't believe that she just admitted that! =) From devika at sas.upenn.edu Thu Mar 27 16:14:16 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:14:16 -0000 Subject: Can the Marauder's Map be deceived? (and more questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54443 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Atherton" wrote: > I said: > > I think all the teachers who taught her - so that's Vector, Sinistra, > > McGonagall, Snape, Flitwick, Lupin, Sprout, and whoever teaches Muggle > > Studies, plus anyone else I've forgotten - knew about her TT. > > > > Gina pissed on my bonfire with: > While you raise an interesting point, I think the answer is no. Because > Dumbledore tells Snape outside the infirmary that there is no way H&H could > be in two places at once. If Snape knew Hermione had a TT, he would?ve > immediately made the leap and suspected her of using it. > > I now say: > Doh. Oops! > > ~wishes Cuaron would hurry up so she can blame movie contamination~ Well, I don't know, Susan. You might be able to start that bonfire up again . Dumbledore doesn't tell Snape that Harry and Hermione can't be in two places at once. His exact words are: "Unless you are suggesting that Harry and Hermione are able to be in two places at once, I'm afraid I don't see any point in troubling them further." After that, Snape remains silent, looking from Fudge to Dumbledore. Then, he storms out of the hospital wing. I always thought it was possible that Snape did in fact know about Hermione's Time Turner, and of course he knows that Dumbledore knows about it too. When Dumbledore stated the above line, Snape would have realized that Dumbledore in fact knew what had happened and that the TT was involved. Now, we can say a lot of not-so-nice things about Snape, but I believe that his loyalty to Dumbledore has never wavered since he came back to his Dumbledore's side from the DEs. I think that in that moment Snape realized that Dumbledore knew about, and had most likely orchestrated, Sirius's escape via TT. And, that being the case, what could Snape do? His loyalty to Dumbledore overrode his hatred for Sirius (as it did in GoF when Snape and Sirius shook hands). Snape had nothing left to do but to storm out of the hospital wing without saying anything. Devika From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 16:24:57 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:24:57 -0000 Subject: The Dursleys' role /Wizards&Logic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54444 Andrea: >I'm not inclined to think Petunia's a Squib, because it was said at >several points that Lily was either a Muggle-born witch or from a >Muggle family. However, for proponents of Heir-through-Lily theories, there's nothing against one of the previous descendants having been a Squib, and choosing to live in the Muggle world since they were without magic. Several generations later, who's to say they're not a Muggle family? Finwitch: >Good point - as Lily and Petunia's parents *were* Muggles. But >another matter, Fudge in PoA tells Harry how he really would go >back to Dursleys later, them being his family and all (sharing >biological line), while Harry most definately does not want to >spend time with Dursleys (because of how they choose to treat >him)... Also, seeing how some full wizard families occasionally >produce a squip (like Filch?) or someone weak in magic, I doubt >it's genetical at all, nor a matter of choices, nor environment. I've always thought of it in terms of genetics being that magic seems to be coming from inside you of you. It could be that this squib, while living in Muggle world, marries a muggle and the gene is carried on and on, until they marry into another person who had a magical family at some point. Do you understand what I'm saying? Maybe JKR will write a book on this and break it down for us. She has already written a book on Quidditch and Fantastic Beasts. Why not another on where magic comes from? Greicy, who's now wondering if it could also have something to do with auras and personalities...hhhhmmmm.... From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 16:28:57 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:28:57 -0000 Subject: Graveyard scene In-Reply-To: <3E825EDE.00000C.26555@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54445 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > A friend of mine and I were just discussing the fact that whenever Harry > has to face Voldemort he always has to do it alone (does anyone think that's > significant btw?) when she pointed something out I hadn't noticed. In the > graveyard scene in GoF harry and Cedric arrive in the graveyard, they see > someone we soon discover is Peter carrying a bundle, which turns out to be > Voldemort, Harry hears a high pitched voice (Voldemort) say 'kill the spare' > and then another voice (presumably Peter) say 'Avada Kedavra'. So someone > other than Voldemort cast the spell and yet Cedric's ghost emerges from > *Voldemort's* wand later due to the priori incantum effect. So why is Peter > casting the spell with Voldemort's wand? > I don't remember whether they said if his wand was found along with his > remains after his presumed death but I would assume somewhere in Knockturn > Alley or somewhere similar there is somewhere he could get a wand on the > black market and I doubt he'd have wanted to go a whole year without one - > so why is he using Voldemort's wand? We already know that using another > wizard's wand isn't as effective as using your own. > > K Annemehr: Thanks for asking this, as in thinking about it, a few good possibilities for what really happened have just come to my mind. Okay, I think there is a wide consensus that, when Peter fled to Voldemort after the end of PoA, he carried Voldemort's wand with him. But where did Peter get the wand? Some have theorized that Hagrid picked up the wand at Godric's Hollow when he picked up Harry, and kept it in his house all those years until Scabbers found it while hiding out there during PoA. I doubt this, and believe (just from my impressions of Hagrid's character) that if Hagrid had picked up the wand, he would have given it to Dumbledore along with baby Harry. I think that, on that fatal night when Peter betrayed the Potters, he either went to Godric's Hollow *with* Voldemort (most likely, I think), or was the first one to get there after Voldemort was vaporized because, as the Secret Keeper, he was the only other one who knew all along where the Potters were. He was the first one to see the destruction, but Voldemort was already gone (not wishing to hang around in case any of his enemies appeared to finish him off) or unable at this point to make his presence known. Peter found the wand and then hid it somewhere and confronted Sirius. Okay, fast forwarding to Peter's escape in PoA. Before Peter left for Albania, he picked up Voldemort's wand and carried it with him. [A side note: presumably, when an animagus transforms, his clothes and whatever he has in his pockets -- SUCH AS A WAND -- transform with him. So *why* doesn't Peter still have his own wand? The only explanation I can think of is that the force he put into blasting apart the street when he faked his death shattered his wand also. It seems unlikely he would have abandoned it as part of the death-faking scenery as he didn't bother leaving a set of clothes or anything else -- why abandon your most valuable tool?] So, Peter was travelling to Albania with Voldemort's wand. Why didn't he get another one for himself? I think because it would have been too risky -- he was supposed to be dead and couldn't be seen. He did go to that pub in Albania and it almost ended in disaster. It is even possible that that was going to *be* his first attempt at buying a wand, in that village. Also, between him and Voldemort, he was the only one who could wield a wand to begin with, so there was no immediate need to risk trying to procure another. Even after the ugly baby body was made, one wand was sufficient, so Voldemort probably thought it prudent to leave it at that. I presume that the next time we see Peter, a wand will have been provided for him one way or another. Finally, I have just had a thought about the question of how did Dumbledore or anyone else know that the Potters had been killed? My theory is based upon the assumption that the house in Godric's Hollow had been the Potters' house for some time before the Secret Keeping spell was cast, so that many people knew where it was. I think the SK spell, which hides a secret inside a single soul, must have made everyone else magically *forget* where the Potters lived. If this is true, then when Peter divulged the secret and the spell was broken, perhaps the people who knew about Godric's Hollow gradually began to remember and thus knew something was wrong, and the word spread. Two objections: 1) Sirius said that he knew something was wrong when he went to check on Peter, *not* because he suddenly remembered where the Potters lived. 2) It seems strange that people would *gradually* remember where the Potters lived, but if it was instantaneous, I would think that a lot of people would have apparated to Godric's Hollow very quickly and would have caught Voldemort (and whoever else may have been there). All these topics for speculation make me sincerely hope that JKR will some day come out with a series of short stories to explain some of these things that happened outside of Harry's point of view! This was an idea someone had posted months ago, and I thought it was great! Annemehr From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 16:30:13 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:30:13 -0000 Subject: The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54446 Ari wrote: >In the Hebrew translation, "The boy who lived" is translated >as "the boy who remained alive." this seems to lend credence to >the "Harry beat death" idea. In the spanish books, it's translated to the boy who lived. He lived through something that could have caused him death. That's the way I always saw it and that's the way JKR has represented it. Greicy From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 16:37:34 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:37:34 -0000 Subject: names, Snape and a bit of SHIP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54447 The Admiring Skeptic wrote: >I've voted for Snape+Fleur as a Darcy+Jane Bennet pair, but I'm >beginning to wonder whether it wouldn't be just as much fun to see >JKR producing an evil-couple-in-love. I'm thinking we may already have an evil-couple-in-love. The LeStranges. That is if they are a couple because they could be brother and sister now that I think about it. Does anyone remember if canon states they are married? B/c my mind has blanked yet again. Greicy From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 16:44:22 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:44:22 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: <6894623.1048768553109.JavaMail.Administrator@atp> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54448 Martin wrote: >I can't add to it, and this is probably irrelevant, but I just had >a scene from GoF pop into my head (as this scene does from time to >time). With all the murder, lies, mayhem and corruption at the end >of GoF some scenes get pushed aside but the one that sticks in my >mind is a distant view of a girl and a boy walking along the muddy >lakeside early one damp autumn morning, munching toast, talking >about stuff and looking out over the misty water. >I don't know why that image is so powerful with me. It must be just >a classic romantic scene ;) All that's missing is them skimming >stones. That is a nice scene isn't it? I never gave it much emphasis (to my surprise) because I thought it was just a way to get away from the castle, the noise the students make and to have some privacy so as to not be heard by anyone. What makes it even sweeter is that it doesn't just happen once. IIRC, it happens again and this time it is Harry asking Hermione to walk with him by the lake. I think he was going to tell her about what he knows about Task 1. Greicy, adding this scene to her collection of H/H moments ;) From devika at sas.upenn.edu Thu Mar 27 16:56:57 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:56:57 -0000 Subject: The Lestranges (WAS names, Snape and a bit of SHIP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54449 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: > I'm thinking we may already have an evil-couple-in-love. The > LeStranges. That is if they are a couple because they could be > brother and sister now that I think about it. Does anyone remember > if canon states they are married? B/c my mind has blanked yet again. > GoF, Ch.27, Padfoot Returns: Sirius held up his fingers and began ticking off names [of DEs]. "Rosier and Wilkes--they were both killed by Aurors the year before Voldemort fell. The Lestranges--they're a married couple--they're in Azkaban.... Looks like they're married. I wonder if they dated at Hogwarts. They might have, since they were in the same year as MWPP, which meant that they only graduated a few years before Voldemort fell. --Devika, who really really wants JKR to write a book about MWPP's generation at Hogwarts and after... From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 17:05:27 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 17:05:27 -0000 Subject: Graveyard scene In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54450 Annemehr, sheepishly replying to her own post: I wrote: >It seems unlikely he would have abandoned it as part of the >death-faking scenery as he didn't bother leaving a set of clothes or >anything else -- why abandon your most valuable tool? D'oh! He *did* leave clothes! Did he manage to transform without them just this once, or did he bring a pre-bloodstained set with him on purpose to leave there? He was certainly dressed when Sirius and Lupin made him change back. And exactly when did he manage to cut off his finger? Did he bite off his "toe" as a rat while hiding inside these robes before escaping? This probably would not leave enough blood in itself. And then the severed toe changed back into a finger? Do we imagine that an animagus who dies in animal form changes back to human form since they are no longer exerting their power to maintain the transformation -- and that this would work the same for a severed body part? Still, none of this negates my point that it is not likely Peter would have abandoned his wand at the scene if he could have kept it. Annemehr resolving to be more careful in future and not rely on remembered quotes such as "...the biggest bit they found of [Pettigrew] was his finger" and assume that that was *all* they found... From devika at sas.upenn.edu Thu Mar 27 17:05:49 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 17:05:49 -0000 Subject: The Lestranges (WAS names, Snape and a bit of SHIP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54451 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Devika" wrote about the Lestranges: > > Looks like they're married. I wonder if they dated at Hogwarts. > They might have, since they were in the same year as MWPP, which > meant that they only graduated a few years before Voldemort fell. OK, sorry, but I just thought I'd nitpick my own post before someone else does. Canon doesn't actually state that the Lestranges were in the same year as MWPP, just that they were part of a gang of Slytherins with whom Snape was involved. That doesn't change the fact that they could have dated at Hogwarts; it doesn't actually change much at all. However, I'm just slightly obsessed (though not actually a L.O.O.N), so I couldn't stand to have such a glaring error in a post without correcting it . Devika, who still wants JKR to write a book about MWPP and their Hogwarts and post-Hogwarts days From jmholmes at breckcomm.com Thu Mar 27 17:29:06 2003 From: jmholmes at breckcomm.com (Julie Holmes) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 10:29:06 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Lestranges (WAS names, Snape and a bit of SHIP) References: Message-ID: <001101c2f486$5ef98100$6401a8c0@arvada1.co.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54452 ----- Original Message ----- From: Devika What if the Lestranges are siblings, rather than spouses? I've often wondered this. For what it's worth, I tend to believe the Lestranges are a married couple, but I have wondered at times. ~Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 18:12:28 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 18:12:28 -0000 Subject: Just how important *is* this guy? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54453 Consider the following quotes taken from within the first five chapters of PS/SS: 1) [Vernon Dursey] found it a lot harder to concentrate on drills that afternoon and when he left the building at five o'clock, he was still so worried that he walked straight into someone just outside the door. "Sorry," he grunted, as the tiny old man stumbled and almost fell. It was a few seconds before Mr. Dursley realized that the man was wearing a violet cloak. He didn't seem at all upset at being almost knocked to the ground. On the contrary, his face split into a wide smile and he said in a squeaky voice that made passersby stare, "Don't be sorry, my dear sir, for nothing could upset me today! Rejoice, for You-Know-Who has gone at last! Even Muggles like yourself should be celebrating, this happy, happy day!" And the old man hugged Mr. Dursley around the iddle and walded off. (Chapter 1) 2) McGonagall to Dumbledore: "Flocks of owls ... Shooting stars....Well, they're not completely stupid. They were bound to notice something. Shooting stars down in Kent -- I'll bet that was Dedalus Diggle. He never had much sense." (Chapter 1) 3) When he had been younger, Harry had dreamed and dreamed of some unknown relation coming to take him away, but it had never happened; the Dursleys were his only family. Yet sometimes he thought (or maybe hoped) that strangers in the street seemed to know him. Very strange strangers they were, too. A tiny man in a violet top hat had bowed to him once while out shopping with Aunt Petunia and Dudley. ... (Chapter 2) 4) Harry meeting people his first time in the Leaky Cauldron: "Delighted, Mr. Potter, just can't tell you, Diggle's the name, Dedalus Diggle." "I've seen you before!" said Harry, as Dedalus Diggle's top hat fell off in his excitement. "You bowed to me once in a shop." "He remembers!" cried Dedalus Diggle, looking around at everyone. "Did you hear that? He remembers me!" (Chapter 5) Have I missed any? I know some people have speculated that quote 1) may refer to Professor Flitwick. However, the violet cloak mentioned may well be the match to the violet top hat mentioned in quote 3), and Dedalus Diggle is also described as "tiny" in quote 3) (and I realize that this is going to spark thoughts of "maybe they're related," but I'm not going there, at least for now). If these are all Dedalus Diggle (and three of them certainly are), what's he doing in all these places? If it is really Diggle in quote 1), why is he in Surrey when he lives in Kent? In quote 2), McGonagall guesses he has been shooting of fireworks in Kent, but really, there are plenty of magical means of travel, so this is no trouble if it's true. Then Harry sees him in *another* appearance in a shop in quote 3). Could the meeting in the Leaky Cauldron in quote 4) be just a perfectly reasonable coincidence, Diggle being certain to visit there from time to time? I wonder if he could have been involved in setting up the protection around Harry for when Harry is in his relations care? Then he may well have had a *reason* to come in contact with Vernon, and perhaps Petunia and Dudley too, though we do not see it (and if it happened while Dudley was kicking Petunia all the way up the street, screaming for sweets, she may well not have even noticed). This would put him deep into Dumbledore's crowd. He may drop into Little Whinging from time to time just to check on things, and Harry spotted him once in the shop. Even the meeting in the LC could be related to his responsibility. So what if McGonagall thinks he never had much sense? It seems wizards can be quite eccentric, and maybe Diggle is brilliant, but a bit mad (sound familiar?). And that name -- Dedalus -- can he be some genius magical inventor? Hmmm... But really! Three or four mentions in the beginning of the first book, and then (as far as I can remember), nothing? If Dedalus Diggle never shows up in a place of importance, I will personally *locate* a violet top hat and then *eat* it! Annemehr who nevertheless intends to keep plenty of ketchup on hand, just in case... From golden_faile at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 18:19:16 2003 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 10:19:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Lestranges (WAS names, Snape and a bit of SHIP) In-Reply-To: <001101c2f486$5ef98100$6401a8c0@arvada1.co.home.com> Message-ID: <20030327181916.96687.qmail@web41111.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54454 Julie Holmes wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: Devika What if the Lestranges are siblings, rather than spouses? I've often wondered this. For what it's worth, I tend to believe the Lestranges are a married couple, but I have wondered at times. I think that it says somewhere in the book that they are married, but I'm too lazy to hunt it down. At least that's what I always assumed. Laila Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3098817.4420487.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3098817.4420487.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250; ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mrflynn6 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 19:23:30 2003 From: mrflynn6 at yahoo.com (mrflynn6) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 19:23:30 -0000 Subject: Saint Hedwig Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54455 I just found this interesting tidbit of information on Saint Hedwig, who lived in the late 1100's-early 1200's. The Order of sisters that have adopted her name focus on educatating orphaned and abandonded children. Possible speculation as to the significance this might play in the books? Gretchen From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 19:48:59 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 19:48:59 -0000 Subject: Just how important *is* this guy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54456 Annemehr: >But really! Three or four mentions in the beginning of the first >book, and then (as far as I can remember), nothing? If Dedalus >Diggle never shows up in a place of importance, I will personally >*locate* a violet top hat and then *eat* it! I've always been suspicious of him, too. Is he a good guy or bad guy? What's the deal with him that JKR keeps mentioning him? And of Doris Crockford who consistantly introduces herself? Is she *that* "starstruck"? Greicy From devika at sas.upenn.edu Thu Mar 27 20:37:27 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 20:37:27 -0000 Subject: The Lestranges (WAS names, Snape and a bit of SHIP) In-Reply-To: <001101c2f486$5ef98100$6401a8c0@arvada1.co.home.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54457 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Julie Holmes" wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Devika > > the same year as MWPP, just that they were part of a gang of > Slytherins with whom Snape was involved. That doesn't change the > fact that they could have dated at Hogwarts; it doesn't actually > change much at all.> > > What if the Lestranges are siblings, rather than spouses? I've often wondered this. For what it's worth, I tend to believe the Lestranges are a married couple, but I have wondered at times. > Check my post #54449. They're married. Devika From saddletank at v21.me.uk Thu Mar 27 20:38:40 2003 From: saddletank at v21.me.uk (Martin Soilleux-Cardwell) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 20:38:40 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Can the Marauder's Map be deceived? (and more questions) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030327203258.00b417e8@mail.v21.me.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 54458 >Devika wrote: >Well, I don't know, Susan. You might be able to start that bonfire >up again . Dumbledore doesn't tell Snape that Harry and Hermione >can't be in two places at once. His exact words are: >"Unless you are suggesting that Harry and Hermione are able to be in >two places at once, I'm afraid I don't see any point in troubling >them further." Well spotted. I was struck by D's choice of words at the time, knowing full well *he* knew what he meant by it but not suspecting that Snape would also know what he meant by it, but in the greater scheme of things deciding not to pursue the issue since, deep down, he is completely loyal to D and trusts his judgement, even though the situation that Snape has just witnessed makes him think H&H just somehow let a mass murderer loose. I initialy put D's remark down to his odd sense of humour but now it might be his way of conveying a whole mas of information to Snape in one simple sentence. Regards Martin "...I want to fix that in my memory for ever," said Ron, his eyes closed and an uplifted expression on his face. "Draco Malfoy, the amazing bouncing ferret..." From jodel at aol.com Thu Mar 27 21:42:56 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:42:56 EST Subject: Fawkes, what's in store for OoP? Message-ID: <54.db3f7a5.2bb4ca60@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54459 Alex comments: >>Ugh...I never thought of the possibility that quote that's been released would be anything other than Dumledore beginning to tell Harry all about what happened the night his parents died, and perhaps a lot more. I really hope it's not anything so simple as that. << Brain wave. Just what are the subjects that Ms Rowling HAS already told us that we would learn "all about" in book 5? Of course. Dumbledore is going to tell Harry "all about" Arabella Figg! -JOdel (who thinks the cover illo of OotP is blue because the scene takes place at night.) From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Mar 27 21:44:19 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:44:19 EST Subject: Just how important *is* this guy? Message-ID: <26.370aa45d.2bb4cab3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54460 Greicy: > Annemehr: > >But really! Three or four mentions in the beginning of the first > >book, and then (as far as I can remember), nothing? If Dedalus > >Diggle never shows up in a place of importance, I will personally > >*locate* a violet top hat and then *eat* it! > > I've always been suspicious of him, too. Is he a good guy or bad > guy? What's the deal with him that JKR keeps mentioning him? No specific evidence for this theory, but you know who designed the Minotaur's maze? That's right, Daedalus! I've always liked to assume that perhaps it was Daedalus Diggle who designed the maze for the Third Task. At the very least, I am sure that there is a tenuous connection in the back of JKR's mind, planning a maze for the fourth book and using the name of a maze-builder in the first. ~Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Mar 27 21:46:06 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:46:06 EST Subject: What Can Apparate? My Theory/ Summoning vs "transfer" Message-ID: <14a.1d8ec30e.2bb4cb1e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54461 Martin: >But my question remains unanswered: How does the ship get there? I'll add >the (perhaps) un-neccessary rider that it has a bunch of people on it. And >apparating into Hogwarts is the most underlined no-no in the books. > >So - it must have arrived physically. When this line of thinking came to me >ages ago I immediately thought of underground rivers, or at least a surface >feeder river from the lake to a point outside Hogwarts into which the ship >*could* apparate, then submerge to surface on the Hogwarts lake. Messy >though. Can't say I like it. No. I think it is a bit flinty, personally. One point that I don't *think* anyone's mentioned (apologies if I'm wrong) is that Viktor mentions the fact that the students had to *steer* the boat (whilst Karkaroff remained in his cabin), which sounds as if their manner of arrival had nothing to do with anything related to apparation, Floo-like phenomena, or any kind of intentional (by which I mean having the intent to achieve an aim) kind of magic. It's an odd one. I, too, would like to hear JKR's explanation. I wondered if the Hogwarts lake was a sea-loch, but there is no evidence to support that. Oh, and an aside in response to Steve (bboy_mn), I thought that Dumbledore *conjured* the sleeping bags, rather than *transfered* them. Conjuring, to me, means creating them out of thin air (and according to JKR, conjured items do not endure), rather than fetching them out of storage. A summoning charm would presumably do the latter. ~Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From the.gremlin at verizon.net Thu Mar 27 22:03:25 2003 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:03:25 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Lestranges (WAS names, Snape and a bit of SHIP) Message-ID: <20030327220325.FAIX14673.out005.verizon.net@[127.0.0.1]> No: HPFGUIDX 54462 Someone (I don't know who, I couldn't tell from the post I read) wondered if the Lestranges were actually siblings, but then Lalia saidL "I think that it says somewhere in the book that they are married, but I'm too lazy to hunt it down. At least that's what I always assumed." Here's the quote, I'm trying not to do homework right now (Sirius speaking): "'Snape. . .was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters.' Sirius held up his fingers and began ticking off names. 'Rosier and Wilkes--they were both killed by Aurors the year before Voldemort fell. The Lestranges--they're a married couple--they're in Azkaban. Avery--from what I've heard he wormed his was out of trouble by saying he'd been acting under the Imperius Course--he's still at large.'" There ya go. That didn't take very long... -Acire http://www.underground-newslet.com The Underground--Fixing your addiction for writing. "So sorry-dozed off-what have I missed?" Prof. Lockhart, Chamber of Secrets [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From the.gremlin at verizon.net Thu Mar 27 22:08:00 2003 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:08:00 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Lestranges (WAS names, Snape and a bit of SHIP) Message-ID: <20030327220800.FBFY14673.out005.verizon.net@[127.0.0.1]> No: HPFGUIDX 54463 I wrote:"Someone (I don't know who, I couldn't tell from the post I read) wondered if the Lestranges were actually siblings, but then Lalia said: "I think that it says somewhere in the book that they are married, but I'm too lazy to hunt it down. At least that's what I always assumed." Here's the quote, I'm trying not to do homework right now (Sirius speaking)" (then I posted the quote) Really should finish checking my e-mail before I start jumping into things...I reposted the quote that says the Lestranges are a married couple and deleted a few messages and found out the Devika had done the same thing this morning...sorry everybody!!! -Acire http://www.underground-newslet.com The Underground--Fixing your addiction for writing. "So sorry-dozed off-what have I missed?" Prof. Lockhart, Chamber of Secrets [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From liliana at worldonline.nl Thu Mar 27 21:44:32 2003 From: liliana at worldonline.nl (laylalast) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 21:44:32 -0000 Subject: Can the Marauder's Map be deceived? (and more questions) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030327203258.00b417e8@mail.v21.me.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54464 Martin Soilleux-Cardwell wrote: > Well spotted. I was struck by D's choice of words at the time, knowing full > well *he* knew what he meant by it but not suspecting that Snape would also > know what he meant by it, but in the greater scheme of things deciding not > to pursue the issue since, deep down, he is completely loyal to D and > trusts his judgement, even though the situation that Snape has just > witnessed makes him think H&H just somehow let a mass murderer loose. > > I initially put D's remark down to his odd sense of humour but now it might > be his way of conveying a whole mas of information to Snape in one simple > sentence. > Now me: I had been thinking in a similar way too, but I'm having difficulties in making it fit with the scene in the infirmary in GoF, where Snape sees Sirius transform from his animagus form to his human self and Dumbledore lets them shake hands. Snape's face was one of "mingled fury and horror" (GoF pg 618 UK pb). If Snape was aware of the TT in PoA because Dumbledore implied this, wouldn't he have expected to meet Sirius in the to not too distant future? The meeting in GoF came to him as a -nasty- surprise, at least, so it seems to me. But I still like the idea, also because Dumbledore, in a rather amusing way, "uses" Snapes ability to arrive at conclusions very quickly, knowing that Snape is quite powerless this time to do something about it. Layla From dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 21:52:14 2003 From: dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com (dudemom_2000) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 21:52:14 -0000 Subject: Fawkes, what's in store for OoP? In-Reply-To: <54.db3f7a5.2bb4ca60@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54465 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jodel at a... wrote: > Alex comments: > Dumbledore is going to tell Harry "all about" Arabella Figg! *****\(@@)/***** I think Arabella Figg is Harry's secret keeper. Dudemom_2000 From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Thu Mar 27 21:52:40 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:52:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What Can Apparate? My Theory/ Summoning vs "transfer" References: <14a.1d8ec30e.2bb4cb1e@aol.com> Message-ID: <033701c2f4ab$30ae4ef0$5a02a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54466 > Oh, and an aside in response to Steve (bboy_mn), I thought that Dumbledore > *conjured* the sleeping bags, rather than *transfered* them. Conjuring, to > me, means creating them out of thin air (and according to JKR, conjured items > do not endure), rather than fetching them out of storage. A summoning charm > would presumably do the latter. Well did she say how long conjured items endure for? Because these only had to last the night, then it'd be quite convenient for them to disappear...no messy cleanup for the house elves ;) BTW, my name is Katy and I was on this list awhile back...and finally decided to rejoin. So cheers! :) ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From swirskyr at rogers.com Thu Mar 27 22:03:15 2003 From: swirskyr at rogers.com (happyduck1979) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 22:03:15 -0000 Subject: Who is the 4th person? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54467 wrote: > > Romulus Lupin, a twin-brother to Remus Lupin, who went to > Durmstrang, thus explaining partly why Sirius doubted Remus to be > the traitor AND extreme care about Durmstrang students later? > Possibly, but why would their parents send them to different > schools? It seems like if Dumbledore was willing to take Remus he > would also take his brother. We do not know for sure when Remus was bitten. Perhaps it was well after they (the twins?)were born. If the Lupin family is from the Duramstrong area, maybe they just figured they would send one son to the 'local' wizarding school and they figured the other one would not be able to go anywhere. They might have been very surprised to find that Hogwarts would take their son and so they only sent the one "special" child to a "special school". happyduck From jmholmes at kjsl.com Thu Mar 27 22:04:16 2003 From: jmholmes at kjsl.com (slytherincess) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 22:04:16 -0000 Subject: The Lestranges Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54468 ----- Original Message ----- From: Devika GoF, Ch.27, Padfoot Returns: Note: I wrote this right after I posted, having seen your explanation; it was just caught up due to a formatting issue. Anyhow, here's what I wrote regarding the Lestranges: Oops, I'm sorry for that last post. I'm very sleep deprived and accidentally read the posts on the subject out of order. Anyhow, I'm glad the Lestranges are a married couple in canon; as you can tell, I have yet to fully memorize canon! I'm hoping we might have a new Lestrange at Hogwarts in one of the last three books. Anyone who would go to Azkaban voluntarily must be very unique. Imagine what kind of child they would produce (I'm kind of playing with this as an OC in a fic I'm doing). Again, sorry for the redundant message previously. ~Julie From susannahlm at yahoo.com Thu Mar 27 22:37:30 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 22:37:30 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Failure Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54469 Hm. Maybe this one will-- ::snap:: "Oof!" Darn this. ::snap:: Why isn't there a moon out tonight? ::snap:: Why do tree branches get thinner as they go out? Someone standing in the side yard of the Safe House would hear, at this point, a muttered, rather rude exclamation. There is a fine old oak planted on one side of the Safe House, and, on this dark and foggy night, an indistinct form may be perceived thrashing about in its branches. The form hangs by one arm from a branch, and clumsily swings forward again. One hand catches a slender branch-- ::thwap:: "Ah-H--" ::snap:: "@$^**%!!" ---------------- John, half-dreaming, half-hears the most extraordinary sort of language, and half-forms a resolution to speak with his sister about the kinds of friends she has. Then he falls back into sleep. ---------------- Derannimer, up in the tree, is beginning to consider this a bad idea. She knew she won't be welcome at the Safe House, as she rather favours the Elkins Doctrine of enjoying scenarios in which people screw up royally, rather than ones in which it turns out that they were actually being terribly clever and planning everything right from the very beginning. Sneaky would never let her in the front door. But she *did* so want to talk to Mel about this one. And she'd seen that lovely old tree on the Safe House property, right next to the house--right next to a window. Mel's window. The window that--according to Pip's Perennial Moth Complaints--Mel tends to keep open. Derannimer could see it now, faintly lit from the glow of the night- light; white linen curtains blowing out in the breeze; the soft sound of whispered canonical disputes drifting out into the cool night air. If she could just get a little closer to that window. . . She had thought that if she could just get in to the house surreptitiously, then Mel need never even know who she was. They could have a nice conversation and then Derannimer could leave-- quickly, and without running into Pip or anyone else she knew. And without getting yelled at by a House Elf. But who else is in that room? Pip herself, maybe. And how surreptitious *is* it, really, swinging ineptly around in this blasted great tree, rather like an actor who didn't quite land the part of Tarzan? How unfortunate is that use of the word "land" going to appear, in light of future events? One could land pretty impressively from up here. "How surreptitious are you going to be if you fall out and break your moronic neck?" she grumbles at herself, and then swings forward again. ::thwap:: She hangs suspended between the two branches for a moment, waiting for the inevitable *snap* as her new handhold cracks beneath her fingers. She is almost disappointed when it doesn't break. Her karma must have sprung a leak, or something. She shakes her head slightly, enough to remind herself that she doesn't even *believe* in karma, but not enough to shake herself out of the tree. She swings her other hand forward onto the new branch. It creaks slowly and droops down a bit, but it doesn't break. >From here she can just catch onto the window ledge. . . -------------------- ". . . only times Harry admits feelings of failure are over Quidditch and death," Mel continues, hunched in one corner of her *own bed,* and wishing that Captain Cindy wasn't carrying her Big Paddle. "Two central parts of his life, actually, and two times he really did not cause the failure. Or let me rephrase that. He *alone* did not fail. Circumstances beyond his control and all." "Yes, Harry has had it easy so far," Cindy agreed. "No doubt about it. Whenever he gets into trouble or needs something, someone-- *hist!*" "Wha--?" Melody doesn't get any further than that, because the Captain slaps a hand over her mouth. "I thought I heard something," hisses the Captain. Now that the Captain mentions it, Mel realizes, she can hear something too--a peculiar rhythmic. . . *creaking* sound. It sounds like. . . like. . . like maybe there was a heavy windstorm and-- ::*THWACK*:: A hand suddenly slaps over the window ledge. Mel rips away from the Captain's hand the better to let out a brief shriek; the Captain herself rushes over to the window and brings her Big Paddle down on the mysterious hand. Hard. "OWWWW!" yells a voice from somewhere below the window. At that moment there comes a rap at the door. Captain Cindy whirls round, giving the person attached to the windowsill a chance to grab onto it with her other, non-smacked hand. Mel has turned as well, to behold Meg, clad becomingly in pink striped socks, green scrub pants, a t-shirt reading "MD Cheerleading," a messy pony-tail from which half of her hair is escaping, and a purple blanket. "It's Meg," explains Meg. "I heard you guys talking about failure and well, since it's a topic I am so familiar with lately, I thought I would. . . who's that on the window?" "Ah-HA!" cries the Captain, whirling back around. "That's right! It's an *interloper!*" She raises the Paddle to smack it back down on the hands, but Meg's medical instincts rise to the surface--that Paddle looks like it would *hurt*--and she runs forward and grabs the Captain's arm. "Captain!" she exclaims. "You don't even know who that *is!*" "Darn right!" yells a disgruntled sort of voice from under the window. "It's *Derannimer!* Let me *in!*" Mel and Meg haul Derannimer in through the window. Derannimer snaps to her full height the second she's in the room, carefully cradling her poor hand and trying to look dignified. She casts a disgusted look down at Captain Cindy, who is sitting on the floor and positively howling with laughter. "De-Derannimer!" laughs the Captain. "I'm s-sorry! I didn't know it was--HA!--*you!*" "It is unimportant," says Derannimer rather frostily. So much for surreptition. And so much for not meeting anyone that might recognize her. Fortunately, if Mel and Meg have heard of her anti-MD status, it seems they have kindly decided not to mention it. "Derannimer," says Mel graciously, "take a seat. What did you want to talk about?" The Captain abrubtly stops laughing. "Hey, *yeah,*" she says, her eyes gleaming. "We've got enough for a proper slumber party now. *S'mores!*" ------------------ A few minutes later, the four theorists--John is still, somehow, sleeping--are sitting on the floor around Mel's fireplace, flaming marshmallows held before them on toasting forks--which is to say, on quickly Transfigured matchsticks. Derannimer doesn't think she's quite got hers right; her marshmallows are catching fire *awfully* quickly. "So," says Mel, reaching forward and snatching her marshmallow off the end of her toasting fork. "Ooch. Hot. Anyway, before you came in, Derannimer, we were talking about Harry and failure. Because the fact of the matter is that Harry practically *never* fails at anything. And he's going to have to." "I agree," says Derannimer, nodding and swatting at her flaming blue marshmallow. "It just gets irritating if Harry never loses. If the good guys *in general* never lose." "Yeah," says Cindy. "And like I was saying, Harry's really had it lucky so far. I mean, whenever he gets into trouble or needs something, someone comes up with the answer. Someone gave him a Nimbus, and Sirius supplied a Firebolt. Dead people saved his bacon in the graveyard. Dumbledore saved him from Moody. On and on it goes." "Not to mention," Derannimer points out, "or rather, *to* mention, the fact that Harry's mother came through for him pretty severely when he was a baby. If not for that, he would have been The Boy Who Snuffed It." "And there wouldn't have been a story," adds Meg. "Yeah," says Derannimer. "But anyway, I agree with y'all's point. Harry's going to have to fail, or run out of luck, or whatever. He really does have to." After a minute of silence, during which everyone fishes in the bag for a new marshmallow--except Derannimer, who has decided to try Transfiguring a new matchstick--Captain Cindy speaks. "As we all know, failure builds character and makes you Tough. Melting a cauldron isn't good enough to instill that kind of character. Forgetting to feed Hedwig? Not even close. You know what this means, don't you guys? "Mel," she adds, gesturing with her toasting fork, "you said it yourself-?'Harry admits feelings of failure over Quidditch and death.'" Everyone around the fireplace reacts to these words. Derannimer nods, with a slight smile. She thinks she knows where the Captain's going on this one. Meg frowns slightly, looking like she has some objection. Mel claps her hands to her cheeks in horror and says quickly, "Is it Hagrid? We all know Hagrid is going to die. Is it going to be Harry's failure that leads to Hagrid's death? Tell me it's not going to be Hagrid," she implores. "Nah." Cindy snorts. "Hagrid is an adult who ought to be able to take care of himself." Derannimer has stopped smiling. "Dumbledore?" asks Mel. "Talk about being able to take care of yourself," Cindy snorts again. "No, it needs to be someone who Harry feels a need to protect. Someone who can't take of himself or herself." "Herself?" Melody repeats. "Not?-" "Exactly!" Cindy cries. "Harry is going to fail at protecting *Hermione,* and she's going to pay for his mistake with her life!" "Oh for the love of *Mike!*" interupts Derannimer, rather rudely. "*Captain*--you cannot actually *believe* that!" "What! Why not? I--" "You know, Elkins is *right* about you." "What?!" asks Cindy again, in a tone of some outrage. "Look, I already *made* the case for Hermione's demise in Message 46166." "I think I missed that one," says Meg, with a certain firm line to her mouth that suggests she might have a problem with this theory too. "Yes, Captain," says Derannimer. "Go over that again." "You want me to make my case for DeadDeadDead!Hermione?" asks the Captain, somewhat suspiciously. "Why on *earth* not." Derannimer speaks very pointedly indeed. "Okay then," says the Captain. "First up, JKR is really beating the "horrible to write" drum, isn't she? At one point she might have even said writing this death would "crucify" her. She says she's not enjoying it at all. So whoever bites the bullet in OoP has to be *Big!*" "Or not," points out Derannimer. "She was really upset over Cedric's death too, remember." "But JKR gave us some other clues, didn't she?" counters Cindy. "She first mentioned this bit about "horrible to write" quite a long time ago. She has to be aware that lots of folks are betting on Dumbledore or Hagrid. She knows what that Hagrid actor said about his contract. Yet she keeps going on about how horrible this death is! I mean," Cindy continues, rising and walking over to a recessed panel in the wall, "look at this! Just look at this!" She taps a couple of little buttons, and the panel flickers into life. It's obviously showing JKR interviews. It fast forwards very, very fast, then zaps down to play for this exchange: ************** Liso: And what kind of book is it, is it dark, is it light, is it sort of, y'know, bits of both, cos it's really getting darker, could you tell us something about the tone? JKR: It is dark. And there's a bad death in it, which I haven't enjoyed writing. But I'm really pleased with it so far. Just got to tweak it a tiny bit more and then you can - well, the publisher's will have it. ************** "Look at that!" exclaims Cindy, tapping the panel back off. "JKR *volunteered* that whole bit about the bad death. She didn't have to say that, now did she? It's like she couldn't wait to repeat the bit about the horrible death. Oh, JKR is sitting in her mansion, laughing her head off that no one has come close to figuring out what she has in mind. If we've all guessed it correctly in Dumbledore or Hagrid, I'd expect JKR to back off a bit or stay mum about the death. So that means to me that the Hagrid/Dumbledore consensus is way off." "Well. . . *maybe.* But I don't think that's a lot to start predicting *Hermione's *death** on." "But there's other things, too," says the Captain eagerly. "There's also the fact that JKR doesn't do the obvious. Apparently, the smart money was not on Cedric before GoF was released. People were worried for the twins. That tendency to do the unexpected also suggests Hagrid isn't the one who will die." "But you can't use that rule for *everything!*" exclaims Derannimer, in some frustration at the Captain. "Or if you can, then I get my SOULSUCKED!SNAPE theory. You *yourself* have said that you can't use that rule for everything!" "But that's not all!" continues the Captain, apparently oblivious. "As Pip noted, JKR seems a little irked that no one begs her to spare Hermione. I mean, if I were JKR and I had established the lynchpin of Book 5 as the death of Hermione, I'd be a little worried that no one seemed the least bit bothered by that potential outcome? Oh, JKR is sweating now, rightfully worried that Hermione's death might not be met with the outpouring of grief JKR needs to make OoP work. So she keeps hinting at the horrible death during interviews -- even when no one asks her about it." "Oh for Pete's--" cries Derannimer, and then apparently can't find words sufficient to her irritation. "*Captain!* Good grief! You just *said* that JKR was 'laughing her head off!' And now you're saying that she's 'sweating!' I mean, which is it? Either she's pleased, or she's bummed! How is she *both?*" "And also--" "Anyway, she's upset about no one asking about Hermione because she thinks it means they must not like her as much as they like Ron! Not because she's worried about it screwing up *OOP!*" "And *also,*" continues the Captain, with an air of great finality, "As far as the death being difficult to write, I'm not surprised. "Hermione's death would be quite difficult to write well. I'm not sure how one would even go about it. Would you order up a long slow death with lots of wheezing? Would she die heroically? Would she be ambushed, so to speak? Would she be kidnapped first and die in the rescue attempt? Would she be reduced to a pile of smoking ash? Would she die of her own ineptitude? That, coupled with Pip's observation that writing Hermione's death might be akin to suicide for JKR, swings the spotlight firmly in Hermione's direction." Derannimer simply glares at the Captain for one long minute. "Captain," she says finally, "do you *honestly* think that Hermione's going to die in the next book?" "Well," says the Captain cheerfully, "if nothing else, it would put an end to all this SHIPping nonsense." Derannimer mouths silently in outrage for a moment. "Yep," continues Cindy, skewering a marshmallow on the end of her fork with a disturbing degree of relish and enjoyment. "Yep. Hermione is Ever So Dead." "Really," says Derannimer coldly. "Well look here--" "I mean, come on, Derannimer! What's the argument *against* it?" "Aside from the obvious, you mean? *She's *Hermione**!" "Come on! That's not an *argument!*" Derannimer thinks for a minute, and decides that--on the whole--no, it *wouldn't* be a good idea for her to attack Captain Cindy with her newly-Transfigured toasting fork. She sighs, and begins talking. Very slowly. "Captain," she says patiently. "First of all, I honestly don't think that any of the Trio are going to snuff it, at least not in Book 5. For one thing, if Hermione or Ron were to die, who would take their place? Are we going to have a new, differently configured Trio? Are we just going to have Ron and Harry for the next two books? The fact of the matter is, the Trio form a single unit; at the end of the series, yes, one or more of them might die--but not when there's still all this *narrative* to go through. Hermione's death would leave a hole in the characters' lives, and sure, *that's* fine; but it would leave a hole in the books too." "Well," the Captain points out, "they're a single unit *now.* There's no reason things *can't* be different." "I'm not finished yet. Secondly, there is the Law of Gender Ratios." Cindy groans. "Derannimer, don't get all meta--" "The whole *Big Bang* is meta-textual! You shouldn't have any problems with meta-textual! And the Law of Gender Ratios is a perfectly fine meta-textual assumption. We can't go through the whole next two books with a Trio of guys. Or just two guys. They need a girl in there, or we would all miss a lot. *Especially* as they're all just hitting adolescence, and the view points between the two genders are diverging even further. You'd miss a lot of comedy, you'd miss *a lot* of potential for romance--" "*I* wouldn't." "--and you'd miss a whole layer of literary and human experience that comes from a *feminine* understanding--you'd miss half of the equation. Eve may have been Adam's help meet, but Adam *needed* a help meet, you know. The purely masculine isn't any more complete without the feminine than the purely feminine is without the masculine. And without Hermione, HP would be pretty darn purely masculine. The books would be a lot. . . well, *thinner* without Hermione in them. Even if they weren't any shorter." "What about Ginny? What if she kind of took Hermione's place?" Meg breaks in quietly. Derannimer sits and thinks for a minute. "Nah. For several reasons. First, she's *never* gonna be allowed to share all of Harry and Ron's adventures, for the simple fact that she is Ron's little sister, and he--and Fred and George, and maybe even Mrs. Weasley--will work to keep her out of it. Hence, by the way, another point against H/G. Ginny is always going to be Ron's little sister. "And that would really be a pretty weird dynamic, wouldn't it? Harry, and Ron, and Ron's little sister who's got a hero-worshipping crush- from-afar on Harry. I don't think it would be all that much *fun.* "Also, she's too young. She's not in their year, she doesn't take their classes--it'd be harder to keep her up-to-date on things than it is Hermione." The theorists are silent for another minute. Then Captain Cindy speaks up. "There's always Neville," she says. "Neville is not a female," says Derannimer. "No." "And you *do* need prominent female characters--it's not literary quotas, it's just that most stories need women in them, as well as men. I *won't* think Hermione's gonna die unless you can find me a plausible female character that can fill a place of similar importance." "Well, then," says Mel, chewing a contemplative s'more, "who *do* you think is going to die?" "Hagrid," says Derannimer immediately. "No, look," protests Captain Cindy, "It's like I said: Hagrid *really* ought to be able to take care of himself. How could Hagrid's death constitute a failure for Harry?" Derannimer sits and thinks for a moment. The firelight splashes strange shadows across her face, which slowly folds into an ominous smirk. "Weeel. . . " she says, "What kind of failure are you talking about, exactly? Failure in whose eyes?" "Oh!" Meg exclaims. "Oh, yes, I think I know where you're going. Yeah, I was thinking that too." Meg nods at Derannimer. Melody and Cindy look rather confused. "Melody?" begins Meg, "have you ever considered that Harry doesn't have to truly fail? He only needs to feel that he has failed. Think about it. When Cedric died, he blamed himself. When the dementors came to the game and he fell off his broom, he blamed himself for the lost game. Whenever something bad happens, he assumes that he is responsible for the failure." "So," breaks in Derannimer, "what if something *really* bad happens?" "Hagrid dies?" asks Captain Cindy, dubiously. "No, not just Hagrid dies," says Derannimer, the smirk making a comeback. "Hagrid dies in front of Harry. Harry tries to stop Hagrid from dying, and can't. And *fails.* Even if that failure was perfectly forgivable in our eyes, even if Harry shouldn't be expected to protect an adult like Hagrid, the fact remains that that failure would *not* be forgivable in Harry's eyes, and Harry *would* expect himself to be able to save Hagrid. After all, he's saved everyone else." "But not his first guide and mentor," says Mel, musingly. "Oh, but that's really *awful!*" "Yeah." Derannimer grins. "And here's another thing. Let's not have it at Voldemort's hands. I don't want another run-in with Voldemort until seven, personally. So let's have Hagrid meet his Tragic Demise at the hands of some DE or other. That would be even worse for Harry; not only a defeat, but not even a defeat to Voldemort. A defeat to his pathetic *henchmen.*" "Yes, but that could happen to Hermione too," objects the Captain. "Nah. If Hermione's gonna die, I want the Evil Overlord to kill her. It's only fair. And if the DE's *do* do the killing, we can have all *sorts* of Fun Things. Such as Lucius Malfoy." "Lucius Malfoy is a Fun Thing?" Meg wonders aloud. "Well, no. No. Not especially. But Lucius torturing and/or killing Hagrid would make for an interesting thingie. Well. It'd make for *lots* of interesting thingies. "Or Snape." "*What!*" shrieks Mel. "I mean if he was *there.* I don't mean if he'd do the torturing and/or killing *himself.* But he could be there, and he could refrain from helping Hagrid or Harry. He could not intervene--simply watch impassively as Lucius tortures his colleage. You know, preserving his cover for the sake of the broader mission. Be hard on Harry, accepting *that* would. *I* think that sort of a scenario would be horrible to write." "But all that could happen to Hermione too!" protests the Captain. "No it couldn't," says Derannimer firmly. "I couldn't *read* all that happening to Hermione. It's not just a question of whether the books are kiddie-lit--I don't think they are--but I *cannot* watch Hermione get *tortured* to death. "Hagrid, yes. Hagrid I can do. Hermione, no way." "Well, yeah," says Captain Cindy. "But that's the *point.* It would be *awful* if Hermione died. Then Harry will have suffered the most gut-wrenching failure of his life--a failure that leads to the death of one of his two best friends. If anything will give Harry the desire to defeat Voldemort once and for all, that will. Hermione just *Bangs* more. You gotta admit that, Derannimer." "Yes. . . well, yes. Obviously. But you know, I honestly think that it wouldn't be half bad motivation for Harry if *Hagrid* were to die either. *You* may not like Hagrid much--" "--that's for sure--" "--but Harry certainly does. And if Hagrid were to die in front of him, if he tried to stop it from happening and failed, it would be a massive failure in his eyes. And, hey, let's drag in that OOP quote: what if Harry failed *because he didn't know something Dumbledore should have told him*--" "Hoo boy," observes Mel. "Hoo boy indeed." "But that would really be more *Dumbledore's* failure, in that case," objects Captain Cindy. Derannimer considers this for a moment, and then shrugs. "Oh well," she says philosophically, "that works too. Anyway, if there's anyone in this series who needs to fail even more than Harry does, it's Dumbledore. And there would be a certain beautiful irony if Hagrid's death were to be, at least in part, indirectly caused by the failure of the man who Hagrid places such an absolute trust in. "Now come off it, Captain: can't Hagrid's death Bang even a little bit?" Derannimer (who thinks that if John doesn't wake up, we could always try poking him with a toasting fork) From t.forch at mail.dk Thu Mar 27 22:44:21 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 23:44:21 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fawkes, what's in store for OoP? In-Reply-To: References: <54.db3f7a5.2bb4ca60@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030327234128.00c8a180@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54470 At 21:52 27-03-03 +0000, dudemom_2000 wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jodel at a... wrote: > > Alex comments: > > Dumbledore is going to tell Harry "all about" Arabella Figg! > >I think Arabella Figg is Harry's secret keeper. She must, in that case, be a very talkative one - considering how many knows where Harry spends his summer holidays. There might, of course, have been used a Fidelius Charm until the time when Harry had to go to Hogwarts, but after that it is incompatible with the description of this Charm in PoA. Troels From saddletank at v21.me.uk Thu Mar 27 23:07:12 2003 From: saddletank at v21.me.uk (saddletank) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 15:07:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Can the Marauder's Map be deceived? (and more questions) Message-ID: <12514792.1048806432718.JavaMail.Administrator@atp> No: HPFGUIDX 54471 Layla wrote: >Snape sees Sirius transform from his animagus form to his human self >and Dumbledore lets them shake hands. Snape's face was one of "mingled >fury and horror" (GoF pg 618 UK pb). If Snape was aware of the TT in >PoA because Dumbledore implied this, wouldn't he have expected to >meet Sirius in the to not too distant future? >The meeting in GoF came to him as a -nasty- surprise, at least, so it >seems to me. My assumption was that Snapes reaction was partly "My God, an unregistered animagus!" but mostly "My God - not *him*!" Coming face to face with one of his arch rivals/enemies(?) a murderer on the loose for over a year and being exposed to yet another shock at the end of an evening of shocks, horrors, deaths and revelations. >But I still like the idea, also because Dumbledore, in a rather >amusing way, "uses" Snapes ability to arrive at conclusions very >quickly, knowing that Snape is quite powerless this time to do >something about it. I like it because it makes Dumbeldore appear even more clever than I thought, it reveals the depth and strength of Snape's trust in him (the reader only realises this after reading GoF and going back and re-reading PoA) but mostly because it makes JKRs plots even tighter and more keenly worked out. Regards Martin "...I want to fix that in my memory for ever," said Ron, his eyes closed and an uplifted expression on his face. "Draco Malfoy, the amazing bouncing ferret..." From charisjulia at hotmail.com Fri Mar 28 00:11:42 2003 From: charisjulia at hotmail.com (charisjulia) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 00:11:42 -0000 Subject: FILK: Barty Crouch Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54472 Ok. . . This is really just supposed to be a plain FILK post, but (and the Mods will please forgive the off?topicness) I thought I'd take the opportunity and add something I've been meaning to say for some time now. Last September I moved country and one of the few unfortunate consequences of this was that my access to the internet was considerably reduced. I knew this was going to happen and I'd been planning to send a goodbye post to the OT-Chatter announcing my departure. I'd even come up with the title: "So Long And Thanks For All The (To Be Specific) Carps". But then I decided that I wouldn't do that. "But I don't *want * to quit HPFGU!" I whined to myself. "I really, *really * don't want to. And I shan't! So there!" Unfortunately however things didn't prove quite so easy in practice, and though I `ve been diligently lurking I haven't made a real appearance on the list for ages (besides very briefly in the autumn). So let me now say that which I wanted to say months ago: this group is *great *. Really, * really* great. It's introduced me to new ways of approaching not only HP, but literature (or fiction, whatever. . .) in general and has provided incredible stimuli for the imagination. And, well, it would be ok if I kind of still popped by once in a while, wouldn't it? When the mood takes me and the University PC?rooms are open, that is? I mean, I don't know how very often that would be, but, you see, I * do* so miss Theory Bay. --Charis Julia, offering her very first FILK as proof of just how inspiring she does find HPFGU. BARTY CROUCH To the tune of "Rasputin" by Boney M (Note: a good part of this filk is based on exchanges between Elkins and Eileen back in December in the general context of the Crouch Trilogy Squared ?- link to the first post here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/47927 It is therefore dedicated to them both. And a suggestion: Try to imagine it with Cindy in the background going "Hey hey hey hey. . ." in a hollow chant. It really adds a certain something.) There worked a certain man for the MM long ago, He was stiff, uptight, he did not look like a scarecrow. Elkins considered him the epitome of Bad, But CRABCUSTARD held that this guy was really rad. He despised the DEs and their leader, Dark Arts he could not abide, But it takes a sympathetic reader To see past near filicide. Eileen: BAR BAR BARTY CROUCH I claim he is Dead Sexy! And this CRABCUSTARD tastes really good. Elkins: BAR BAR BARTY CROUCH Bulging eyes make him ugly, And I won't touch that, are we understood? He ruled the Ministry and never mind trial rights For on the top job it was he had set his sights But when Voldemort did fall, his hopes did not come true, At the Bagman trial the crowd did begin to boo. For Eileen he was a Tragic Hero, Though she's read the things he's done, But for Elkins he was more like Nero, She prefers his son. BAR BAR BARTY CROUCH On young House Elves he was keen He'd one at home (his wife she was dead) BAR BAR BARTY CROUCH Winky cared for his hygiene And who knows what she did in his bed. Spoken: So when his ruthlessness and arbitrariness and his irregular hours Became known to more and more people The demands to allocate to this outrageous man the supervision of an important ministerial department Became louder and louder "Very disappointing" pronounced Junior Crouch And he sat and watched as Voldie made his Dad go "Ouch!" Imperius I'd say was applied with real spite, It took Crouch some months 'gainst it to begin to fight. Then one night for Albus he came running Acting really most deranged, But Fake!Moody with a spot of stunning His death soon arranged BAR BAR BARTY CROUCH Now in wizard hell he'll roast "Sic Semper Tyrannis" as old writers said BAR BAR BARTY CROUCH Though he could come back as a ghost Don't know 'bout Sexy, he's certainly Dead Oh, that Barty. . . --Charis Julia From trinity61us at yahoo.com Fri Mar 28 00:51:00 2003 From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:51:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What Can Apparate? My Theory/ Summoning vs "transfer" In-Reply-To: <14a.1d8ec30e.2bb4cb1e@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030328005100.30729.qmail@web14906.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54473 eloiseherisson at aol.com wrote: << I wondered if the Hogwarts lake was a sea-loch, but there is no evidence to support that. >> Well, considering that giant squid ARE ocean creatures, this is a very good point!!! He just happens to like it there, I assume. Alex Fox From grosich at nyc.rr.com Fri Mar 28 01:06:35 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina R Rosich) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 20:06:35 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What Can Apparate? My Theory/ Summoning vs "transfer" In-Reply-To: <20030328005100.30729.qmail@web14906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54474 eloiseherisson at aol.com wrote: > << I wondered if the Hogwarts lake was a sea-loch, but there is no evidence to > support that. >> > > and then trinity61us at yahoo.com> wrote? > Well, considering that giant squid ARE ocean creatures, this is a very good > point!!! He just happens to like it there, I assume. > > > I think the lake, and the forbidden forest, are both ?protected lands? owned by Hogwarts. So, magical creatures are specifically given invitation to live there. And while I could easily see the ship being navigated through magical or underground water streams, I wonder how the Beauxbatons travelled through the air without being noticed by Muggles. The Ford Anglia was seen by many. And while we?re on the giant squid, PLEASE, I beg of you all, do not get started on that theory that Dumbledore is the giant squid. I?m begging you. Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Mar 28 01:15:01 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 01:15:01 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What Can Apparate? My Theory/ Summoningvs "transfer" References: Message-ID: <3E83A215.000001.99139@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 54475 Gina asked - I wonder how the Beauxbatons travelled through the air without being noticed by Muggles. The Ford Anglia was seen by many. me- Didn't the Ford Anglia have some kind of cloaking device that they used when rescuing Harry but that malfunctioned when Harry and Ron were flying t? Or am I imagining things here? Gina added - And while we?re on the giant squid, PLEASE, I beg of you all, do not get started on that theory that Dumbledore is the giant squid. I?m begging you. Me - Well you know it is protective of the students, it rescues the younger Creevey when he falls in (I think) ...... K From devika at sas.upenn.edu Fri Mar 28 01:34:14 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 01:34:14 -0000 Subject: The Lestranges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54476 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slytherincess" wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Devika > GoF, Ch.27, Padfoot Returns: > "Rosier and Wilkes--they were both killed by Aurors the year before > Voldemort fell. The Lestranges--they're a married couple--they're in > Azkaban....> > > Note: I wrote this right after I posted, having seen your > explanation; it was just caught up due to a formatting issue. Anyhow, > here's what I wrote regarding the Lestranges: > > Oops, I'm sorry for that last post. I'm very sleep deprived and > accidentally read the posts on the subject out of order. Anyhow, I'm > glad the Lestranges are a married couple in canon; as you can tell, I > have yet to fully memorize canon! Don't worry about it. And you certainly don't have to memorize canon- -that's what the books and this list are for! :) And I'm sorry if my post to you sounded a bit impatient. I certainly didn't mean it to; I was just in a hurry to get to class, and I didn't see the need to say anything more than to direct you to my previous post if you hadn't read it. > > I'm hoping we might have a new Lestrange at Hogwarts in one of the > last three books. Anyone who would go to Azkaban voluntarily must be > very unique. Imagine what kind of child they would produce (I'm kind > of playing with this as an OC in a fic I'm doing). > That sounds pretty interesting. I wonder who would have raised their child, since they obviously couldn't do it themselves. Maybe some other relative? Actually, maybe the child has a different last name (perhaps having been adopted by someone else) and is already at Hogwarts. Oh, the possibilities. Millicent Bulstrode, anyone? Or the infamous (on this list, anyway) Blaise Zabini? Not that the child necessarily has to be a Slytherin at all... Anyway, I do think that we'll hear more about the Lestranges in future books. If in fact the people in the Pensieve were Mr. and Mrs. Lestrange, that means that we've seen or heard of them twice now. That makes it probable that they'll be mentioned again. Devika From fausts at attglobal.net Fri Mar 28 02:58:54 2003 From: fausts at attglobal.net (anguaorc) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 02:58:54 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: <6894623.1048768553109.JavaMail.Administrator@atp> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54477 Martin wrote: > the one that sticks in my mind is a distant view of a girl > and a boy walking along the muddy lakeside early one damp autumn morning, > munching toast, talking about stuff and looking out over the misty water. > > I don't know why that image is so powerful with me. It must be just a > classic romantic scene ;) All that's missing is them skimming stones. Here's another "classic romantic scene" for you: *** And they shot up through the clouds. A minute later, they burst out into a blaze of sunlight. It was a different world. The wheels of the car skimmed the sea of fluffy cloud, the sky a bright, endless blue under the blinding white sun. "All we've got to worry about now are airplanes," said Ron. They looked at each other and started to laugh; for a long time, they couldn't stop. It was as thought they had been plunged into a fabulous dream. *** I didn't even have to picture that one in my head to get the powerful imagery -- it's written right in the book. My point? I do have one. Harry needs to have scenes alone with each of his two best friends, and he does. It seems to me that the ones he has with his female best friend strike you as romantic, while the ones he has with his male best friend don't. This is perfectly natural in our heterosexual-dominated culture, but *is that what the author intends*? I feel sorry for JKR if, as I believe, she is trying to write a real and meaningful platonic friendship between Harry and Hermione, and people persistently interpret it in a romantic way. She's already doing a lot to try to signal us NOT to think of it that way, including stating straight out that they're very platonic friends. Does she need to keep a *chaperone* around, to keep people from getting the wrong idea? Assuming, of course, that I'm correct, and it is the wrong idea. :) Melissa wrote: > That would be a pausible scenario IF the kiss happened at the same time that > Molly was hugging him in a motherly fashion, Angua: But it *did* happen directly after the tight hug from Molly and the back-clap from Ron. It was like this: bang, bang, bang. Paragraph, paragraph, paragraph. "Keep in touch, Harry," "See you, Harry," "Bye, Harry!" It seems odd to me to separate out Hermione's from the other two, when they're sooooo together in the book. Melissa: > It happened within the last 10 lines of the book. Right after Ron > clapped him on the back (and presumably walked away . .I say presumably > because although we don't see it happen, walking away after saying good bye > is the usual course of action). After all his mother was already at the > barrier had said goodbye. Angua: I *really* don't get what's so special about the last ten lines that's not special about the last fourteen. Is this something from a recent post I've missed? Ron has not "walked away." Without saying goodbye to Hermione? Fred and George are still there, because Harry says goodbye to them next (within the last 7 lines!!). I don't see Mrs. Weasley walking off without the twins. And, for goodness sake, she's still apparently waiting for Ginny to get off the train. No, this is how it seems to go: Mr. Dursley and Mrs. Weasley are waiting near each other when the Trio comes through the wall. Mrs. Weasley advances on Harry and hugs him. Ron claps him on the back. Hermione kisses him. Fred and George (who came out after Harry) thank him. Harry and Mr. Dursley walk off, leaving Mrs. Weasley, Ron, Fred, George, and Hermione standing there. Presumably, Hermione is looking around for her parents, and the Weasleys are waiting for Ginny to come through the wall. Greicy wrote: I'll admit that I can concede that for now it looks like Hermione has a crush on Ron. Ron liking Hermione is more than obvious so I don't need to concede that. :D Greicy, who can't believe that she just admitted that! =) Angua: Dude, where do I send the payoff money, and how much was it again? ;) Angua From mdemeran at hotmail.com Fri Mar 28 04:16:31 2003 From: mdemeran at hotmail.com (Meg Demeranville) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 22:16:31 -0600 Subject: SHIP: On girls, boys and all that mushy gushy garbage Message-ID: <002301c2f4e0$cfe7c5c0$6501a8c0@MFD> No: HPFGUIDX 54478 I have been kind of following the shipping debates for a while now. I don't typically say much since I tend not to have time to say much, but since I am sitting in a lecture on fat and feces, I figured I would write down my thoughts. This was typed exactly as it was originally written. As I have said before, I was Hermione. The daughter of a dentist, a bookworm who still never cares about her appearance, the teacher's pet, a know it all who never kept her mouth shut and who was friends with mostly guys, if she was friends with anyone. So I think I know where she is coming from with her need to prove herself and her self-conscious nature. I have always pictured Hermione as the youngest in the class, who was either an only child or who had a significant gap between herself and a younger sibling. My reasoning is as follows. I know that personality, I was that personality. I am the eldest child and only girl who was one of the youngest in my class. I had a huge need to prove myself. I was use to praise from my parents when I took care of my little brothers while they were in meetings or at work. All of our vacations were educational, but many of them included dental seminars where I would be left in charge of my younger brothers for hours at a time. When I went to school, I was use to being the boss from all of those trips. Coupling that with being highly intelligent and you get a bossy know it all. Because I was younger than the rest of the class, I felt the need to prove that I belonged and had earned my place in the class. Needless to say, the girls had no use for me because I was not a girly girl but rather a bookworm. I'd rather sit in the library reading than play dolls. Because I isolated myself, I became an easy target. The girls liked to pick on me because it was easy. I wasn't into the latest fashions, didn't know what to do with my unruly hair, or anything that they were interested in. Eventually, I became friends with a guy and his best friend because they were as socially different as I was. My best guy friend had always been different because he was fascinated with electronics while having no interest in American football (down here in the South, it's a sin). His friend was a Yankee who didn't understand the rigid social pecking order of our school. With my two best friends, I kept doing exactly what I had been doing. And while they eventually taught me to lighten up and how to pull a prank or two, I still lectured and mothered the both of them, still do, even down to tying or straightening their ties almost every morning through high school. Eventually, I figured out that I liked the first guy. He had taken my side in schoolyard squabbles, stood up for me against other boys, etc, but I knew that he had a crush on another girl. At that point, I had a few other friends and I remember being told "You like him, you talk about him all the time" and I didn't realize I talked about him at all. Although we have never dated, it has caused huge difficulties in relationships. All of his girlfriends are insanely jealous of me and some have gone so far as to forbid him to see me, which never works out. Despite the fact that we both deny that anything would ever go on, it seems that when one of us needs something, the other is always there. Even my classmates, who have never met him, tell me that we will end up together. It makes sense to them. That is why I can see a H/Hr ending although I think there will be some R/Hr moments. Hermione always talks about Harry. She probably doesn't realize how often she does. She would be horrified to know that Krum approached Harry. I also think that she has figured out that Ron likes her. Her mothering actions probably feed his ideas that she likes him as well. I think that eventually Ron will swallow his pride and ask Hermione out. She will accept and maybe go on a few dates with him or date him briefly, because it's not in her nature to be cruel and she won't know how to let him down and because Harry isn't noticing her, but it will be awkward for both. Because she is very logical, she will let him down gently to preserve their friendship. Because of who Harry is, he will need a strong woman to be his future mate (assuming that he survives and because I don't see JKR pairing Harry with Ron or Draco, sorry). Hermione is that woman. Although Ginny could be a major character, she still sees Harry as "The Boy Who Lived" rather than just Harry, the orphaned boy who grew up in a cupboard, who likes sports and other things typical boys like. Harry is ultimately a normal kid, or he wants to be. It is part of his charm. His future mate has to accept that and be ready for the media frenzy that will surround Harry forever. (Pause here as fat lecture is over, will pick up during kidney lecture) (Ok, back, where was I?) Looking at Ginny now, I will seek to explain why Ginny won't work for Harry. >From the beginning, Ginny has seen Harry only as the figure she was told about as a child. She largely ignores him the first time she meets him, until she knows who he is, and then she wants to go gawk at him. She apparently talks non-stop about Harry once Ron gets home until Harry shows up, at which point she hides from him, after putting her elbow in the butter. She is clearly star-struck. She does stand up for Harry, however that may have been either to try and redeem herself or it may have been simply a plot device to get her the diary. However, it must have been pretty obvious that Ginny was mooning over Harry for Draco to notice. Later in the same book, she is manipulated to get to Harry. Harry then has to save her, adding to her fantasy image of Harry Potter, The Boy Who Lived. This is her heroic moment with Harry, where she is the "damsel in distress" in need of saving by her hero. (at this point, I realized that I have been asleep for several minutes, back to work) Throughout book three, Ginny seems to disappear. Although Harry knows she is affected by the Dementors, he does not seek her out to talk nor does she seek him out. Instead, he has a heroic moment with Hermione when she is not the "damsel in distress" but rather an active participant in the heroic moment. Both girls have secrets from Harry throughout the book leading to the heroic moments, but while Ginny is the cause of her heroic moment, Hermione is the solution to her heroic moment with Harry. During book four, we have more of the same. Although Hermione is there for Harry when the rest of the school seems to turn against him, there is no mention of Ginny. Although Ginny has the opportunity to ditch Neville and go with her hero, she, in a sign of maturity, does not although she has a sad look about it. I think that Harry not asking her plays a part in this. Had Harry asked, she may have accepted. Instead, it was Ron who said "You can take her" to Harry, like she was his property. Being in her third year and approximately 13, she is starting to want freedom from the controlling influences of her family. The night of the ball, neither boy recognizes Hermione at first. Once they realize it is her, rather than tell her she looks nice, Ron accuses her of fraternizing with the enemy. Hermione had to have been hurt. As Ron confronted her, the boy she likes says nothing. By the end of the evening, Hermione loses her cool with both of the boys. She snaps and says something she regrets later. It is going to motivate her acceptance of a future date with Ron. Kissing Harry on the cheek at the end of the semester is her way of staying close to him. Hermione is a smart girl. She saw how Fleur's kiss affected Ron. She is doing the same thing with Harry. She is leaving him with something to think about. (concluded after class) In conclusion, although I think that there will be some R/Hr moments and maybe a few dates or a small relationship, ultimately that will not work out. Both Ron and Hermione are too headstrong for each other. Hermione is not going to forget what Ron said to her and it will ruin whatever relationship comes between them. Harry and Hermione are better suited for each other. They compliment each other in ways that Ron and Hermione simply do not. But I don't think that either of them will admit it for a while yet. -Meg (who hopes this all made sense and who guesses she just admitted she was a H/Hr fan) Read the untold story of life as a first year medical student at: As The Scalpel Turns - http://www.livejournal.com/users/megd/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From siriuskase at earthlink.net Fri Mar 28 04:34:44 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 04:34:44 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Who is the boy? In-Reply-To: <174181867379.20030326143042@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54479 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > > Hi, > > Wednesday, March 26, 2003, 2:11:57 PM, Meliss9900 wrote: > > > For some reason she's always struck > > me as > > having self esteem issues maybe that's why I can't quite picture her > > thinking > > that this world famous seeker likes her romantically. > > Hm, but what would his reason be for asking Hermione to go > to the ball with him? > > The way she talks about Krum, and the things she mentions > about him in conversation make me think there really isn't > much else that would have motivated, *except* romantic > feelings. > > And Hermione reacted very flattered (imo) and made it a > point to make herself look as nice as possible for the ball. > > While Hermione is not all-knowing, she would have to be > pretty thick to miss Krum's obvious attraction to her. > > She didn't miss Ron's, and I'm pretty sure she's aware of > Krum's intentions. > > -- > Best regards, > Susanne mailto:siskiou at e... Could be the spy issue, especially if she has self esteem issues. She might realize that he is wanting her to spill the beans on Harry and when she doesn't, he pulls Harry aside and falsely accuses Hermione of talking about him in an attempt to get them (H&H) to stop working together. In a variation of this, she might not realize what he is up to but really does talk about Harry a lot, but just because Krum says she did doesn't mean she really does. From blamange at moocow.com Fri Mar 28 01:04:01 2003 From: blamange at moocow.com (werebearloony) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 01:04:01 -0000 Subject: Ferret Theme Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54480 I apologize if this has been done before I couldn't find it on my own and so decided that someone needed to point this out. --loony As a ferret owner I always notice when ferrets come up in a book, newspaper article, ect. so when I got further into the HP books how could I miss the ferret mentions. Have you noticed that ferrets seem to come up a lot in the HP books? They appear in books 2-4 (all we have so far) and if we work with the theory that book 1 was more of a prequel to the rest of the books and so some patterns could start in book 2, there is a pattern. Book 1: I have never found a ferret mention in book 1. Book 2: "Mortlake had to be taken in [to the department of experimental charms] for having some very odd ferrets."(The Burrow) The ferrets had somehow been cursed or changed. Book 3: Buckbeak eats a ferret. When Hagrid is talking to Harry and Ron about their treatment of Hermione Buckbeak spits some ferret bones onto Hagrid's pillow. (Snape's Grudge) Book 4: Rita Skeeter is constantly being compared with a ferret, e.g. "Rita Skeeter's been ferreting around all week " (Mayhem at the Ministry) Malfoy was transfigured by Moody into a ferret and bounced around the entrance hall (Mad-Eye Moody) Ferrets, it seems always have something bad happening to them. And then you get Rita being compared to a ferret. It can be inferred that J.K.R. is telling us to worry about (or look forward to) something bad happening to Rita. This is my pet project, I think I've found all of the ferret references in the book, but if you have found one that I didn't list here (except for more Rita/Ferret details which I left out so as not to bore you too much) please tell me. Especially if you have found one in book 1! --Loony From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 28 02:49:18 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (blackgold101) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 02:49:18 -0000 Subject: New/Old Friends? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54481 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Fred Waldrop" > wrote: > > ... Do you think that now, seeing Harry knows who and what Mrs. Figg > > is, will he want to go and visit her? > > > > ...edited... > > > > Fred > > > bboy_mn: > > I don't think Harry does know; he hasn't put the pieces together yet. > I think that will be one of the surprises in the next book, when Harry > meets Mrs. Figg face to face in the wizard world. There is some > speculation that she is going to be the next Defense Against Dark Arts > teacher; we know it's going to be a female. > > While I think it would be cool for Harry to walk into DADA class and > find his babysitter there, I'm more inclined to think that it will > happen over the summer. Perhaps she will ask him to come over on the > pretense of doing some chores, and when he gets there he will find > Sirius and/or Remus waiting for him. That would be a pretty cool scene > too. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn Here is one better. You're right it might happen over the summer, but instead of her asking him over to do chores, it will be on the one day a year he always goes to Mrs. Figg's house... Dudley's birthday. The Durley's will get rid of him on that day, as usual (except for the glorius day he released the boa at the zoo), and he will drag his feet, not looking forward to the smell of cabbage and looking at pictures of all of her cats. The door opens, and sitting behind her are Sirius Black, Remus Lupin and Professor Dumbledore! How's that for an opening? Just another thought. Marci From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Fri Mar 28 05:08:09 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 21:08:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Meeting Arabella (WAS Re: New/Old Friends?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030328050809.82216.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54482 bboy_mn wrote re Arabella Figg: > > While I think it would be cool for Harry to walk into DADA class and > find his babysitter there, I'm more inclined to think that it will > happen over the summer. Perhaps she will ask him to come over on the > pretense of doing some chores, and when he gets there he will find > Sirius and/or Remus waiting for him. That would be a pretty cool scene > too. Marci answered: Here is one better. You're right it might happen over the summer, but instead of her asking him over to do chores, it will be on the one day a year he always goes to Mrs. Figg's house... Dudley's birthday. The Durley's will get rid of him on that day, as usual (except for the glorius day he released the boa at the zoo), and he will drag his feet, not looking forward to the smell of cabbage and looking at pictures of all of her cats. The door opens, and sitting behind her are Sirius Black, Remus Lupin and Professor Dumbledore! How's that for an opening? Me: Nice, but unfortunately Dudley's birthday isn't in the summer. Harry and the Dursleys went to the zoo on Dudley's birthday in PS, and after the boa constrictor episode Uncle Vernon was so mad that he locked Harry up in the cupboard until summer started. That's all in the zoo chapter in PS. So your scenario doesn't work. I think that bboy's scenario is very likely. Although I'd personally enjoy it more if Harry walked into the DADA classroom. Harry's reaction would be fun to read. It also might spur some questions in Harry's mind - like why exactly was there a witch living so very close to him, and why did she never tell him she wasa witch. The Dumbledore Tells All (about Arabella ) scene might occur shortly afterward. Maria, dead tired and wishing she had the energy to write the Harry/Ginny post that's floating around in her mind begging to be nicely typed up and sent to HPfGU. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Fri Mar 28 05:08:09 2003 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 21:08:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: SHIP Why I Hate H/G - Attn: Lilac Message-ID: <20030328050809.4156.qmail@web40311.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54483 Hello, Keith! Thanks for the special "attn: Lilac" so I wouldn't miss it! ;-)(BTW, when I first saw your last name, I thought it said "Macarena" ;-) ) I usually leave the SHIP debates for Pippin and Angua (they both do a much better job than I ever could), but I occasionally de-lurk for some good "Ginny" discussion. <<>> Me: Yes...JKR has many directions she can take Ginny's character now. That's why I stated my "hope", my opinion, about what could happen. Ginny will have the opportunity to choose between what's right and what's easy, as will everyone else in the next three books. And I'll agree that Ginny really is a wild card right now. It could foreshadow a SHIP because of something they both have in common with each other that no one else has, or it could foreshadow something else, like Evil!Ginny. And we H/G fans do have groundwork for a possible future relationship. Okay...not a whole lot, but it's there (as we interpret the evidence). I'll admit that H/H evidence has a little bit more to it than H/G in terms of evidence amount, but R/H has even more evidence than the two SHIPs put together. Doesn't miss a trick, that JKR. As much as I do like H/G, I have to say that I would be totally fine if it didn't happen. I just want -- no, my inner-teen *needs* -- Ginny to come into her own, even if it's w/o Harry (I speak for myself here, not all H/Gs). You see, I have this theory that JKR has a soft-spot for the girl for some reason. It could be because she was a freckly little girl herself ("[...A young girl runs along with the train, waving with all her might.] JKR: Oh God, this is heartbreaking, isn't it? This is like a long torture. It's always the little freckly girls, 'cause I was a little freckly girl. They warm my heart." http://www.cbc.ca/programs/sites/hottype_rowlingcomplete.html ) It could be because of the time JKR spent teaching, where I'm sure she encountered all kinds of children, including some Ginny-types. Whatever the case, JKR would just seem like the type to have someone like Ginny come into her own in a positive way. As a teacher myself, I know that it is always fulfilling for me to see a child overcome an obstacle, whether it be academic or social (such as shyness/awkwardness/blushing). But that's just me speculating on author intent. <<>> And that could be. But canon tells us that Ginny's reaction was much stronger than Neville's. Even Harry himself (as we are privy to his thoughts) compared her reaction to his as being almost as bad. Plus there's that "both have been targets of Voldemort and survived" thing that will come into play, I'm sure. Maybe as SHIP, maybe as friends, maybe as Evil!Ginny. But I think it's significant, whatever happens. <<>> Me: Okay, so you mean *your* inferences and interpretations. Gotcha... <<>>> Me: You had me up until that last sentence. She has one fan-girl moment in PS, because a name she's heard all her life is mentioned, and he's on the train *right now*! It's not even a crush then. It's a "Wow, that's Harry Potter" moment. Everyone has a "Wow, you're Harry Potter" celebrity moment when they meet Harry, don't they? Each person expressess that "Wow" moexpressesrently, of course. <<>> Me: Do you really think she has not matured at all during the four years she has known him? Do you really think that her reasons for liking him have not developed and changed over the years? He saves her life, he is not mean to her, he is her brother's best friend who comes and stays at their house sometimes, he politely accepts her get-well card (keeping it under the fruit bowl because of the shrill singing, but not throwing it away with disgust, mind you), her mother has basically adopted him, he's modest and hates the spotlight, and many, many other things she has observed about him from just being in his circle of influence. Do you really, after four years, think her crush is solely based on him being famous? The only reason it has lasted for four years? Ginny, the person whose first words uttered in Harry's presence were "Leave him alone, he didn't want all that!(COS pg 61)" (Hmmm....another instance where "What the heart is full of, the mouth spills over" might also be applicable...). That right there lets me know that she has definitely moved past her fan-girl moment at the train station, and that's in COS! <<>> Me: It is a lovely little paragraph, isn't it? I've thought plenty about those lines, thankyouverymuch, and Ginny doesn't act like any of those girls who ask Harry out, now does she? *She* doesn't even ask him out. Harry doesn't even compare her to those other girls in his thoughts, actions or speech. Other than her Fan-girl!Ginny moment in PS, I see no other fan-girl actions. Kind of reassuring, actually, so thank you for bringing this up! <<<'Oh Mum, Can I go on the train and see him, Mum,oh please...'>>> *shakes head* Poor thing will never live this moment in time down, will she?... <<>> If she acted like Colin, or the other fan-girls (Harry's or Krum's), than absolutely not. I couldn't even picture him asking her out while I was reading GOF because the boy had a crush on Cho. But someday later...yes, I can. There have been ample chances for JKR to have Harry compare her to these celebrity worshipers, but she hasn't had Harry think about Ginny like that *at all*. <<>> Me: Like I said above, Harry doesn't think about Ginny in that way; he's too busy languishing in love over Cho. Now, I'd be worried if Harry had gloomily said, "I suppose there's always Ginny" instead of MM, because that would mean he'd be referring to her as the absolute last person he would ever even *consider* asking to the ball. But he doesn't. JKR doesn't even take the opportunity for him to *think* this about Ginny (since Ron is there, and he wouldn't say anything like that out loud to Ron), when she very well could have. It's not a positive, and it's not a negative. <<>> Me: I love that section...thanks for referring to it! Again, JKR doesn't give us any insight into Harry's thoughts (though I suspect this is more for the Ron/Hermione exchange happening in this scene than anything), especially when Ron suggests Ginny, and the opportunity was there for JKR to let us know how Harry really feels about Ginny. No "Yes, she's my one true love!" thoughts or "Yeah, I guess that would work" thoughts or "No way! I'd rather eat live scorpions!" thoughts. Like you said...INDIFFERENT. <<>> I'd always interpreted that quip about MM to be a sarcastic feeling- sorry-for-myself moment for Harry, but maybe I've been misreading that line all this time. I guess he really *was* seriously considering MM. Thanks for clearing that up! <<>> Yeah, the Weasley effect has something to do with it, I suspect. Yes, he ignores her at this point in canon, although it's important to note that he doesn't purposely avoid her, like he does with Lockhart or the Creevey brothers. And he's certainly never thought, "Gee, I better be nice to Ginny...even though that crush really bugs me, I'd be really ungrateful to the Weasley's if I gave her the cold shoulder..." I guess what it boils down to for me is this: if it hasn't been totally shot down in Harry's thoughts, actions or speech, then *anything* is possible in the Potterverse. I can see your line of reasoning, Keith, and even though I don't agree with it, I appreciate your comments! Lilac, who is bravely running away so Angua can take over any H/G debates...and *oh* how I love to read Angua's H/G debates... ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "So sorry -- dozed off -- what have I missed?" -- Gilderoy Lockhart, COS ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Malady579 at hotmail.com Fri Mar 28 05:23:55 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 05:23:55 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Failure, Fairytales, and Hamlet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54484 Looking around her bedroom, a single thought crept into Melody's mind. "I *definitely* need to install that intruder alert thingy on my door." One would think a hunting werewolf, a carnivorous bunny, Mel's invisible sword, Grey's assorted battle axes, a house elf with attitude, the widely whispered dungeon down in the basement, tons of surveillance equipment, and that thing Pip does (wink) would ward these people away, but noooooo. "Want another smore, Derannimer?" Meg asked extending the bag of marshmallows to her. They were both sitting by the hearth building small villages of smore houses. Melody always like the fireplace in her room, but Grey Wolf and Pip never let her play with matches.... Cindy sat kicked back on *Melody's* bed with a pillow propped up under her feet, and she actually had the courtesy to take off her boots first this time. "You know, I could get use to this life." Melody just crossed her arms but stayed balanced on her small part of the bed Cindy so graciously left for her. Even though Melody had a four-poster queen size bed, for some reason the captain seems to need the equivalent space of a small European nation. "So," Melody said a bit begrudgingly. "We all agree that Harry needs to fail, right?" Cindy and Derannimer nodded fervently, but Meg looked up with a slight pained look on her face. "Mel, Harry has already felt like a failure before with the Dursleys. He does not need it now," she said staring into the fire. "Meg, Harry felt like he was unloved. Neglected. He did not fail them really. He did not even fail his parents. He did not blame himself for anything. In fact, when he says his grades in school, he seems to be mildly pleased with himself at something. The only thing Harry *thought* he failed at before Hogwarts was *earning* the Dursleys love which was an impossible feat. He never did actually fail. Kind of like Cinderella winning over her evil stepmother's heart. Who can ever love a pebble in their shoes (1). Once again, he *felt* like a failure but he was not. He knows that now. He never failed before Hogwarts. And he never fails now," Melody concluded. Cindy looked over at the young girl and gave her a stout nod more to the fact Melody finally finished than in a statement of agreement. Meg whispered into the fireplace, "I still think he will take the failure too hard and it is not necessary." "But Meg," Derannimer said scooting over to play with Meg's hair, "Harry has been so perfect until now. He does kind of need to fail. He is really doing everything right up to this point. Don't ya think he needs to stumble a little?" "Precisely leading to my point," Cindy said sitting up in Mel's bed and rearranging *all* the pillows to prop herself up against the headboard while Melody glared a bit at the captain. "Harry will fail. And it will be *BIG*. So then. Banging is in order." Derannimer perked up and finished braiding the bit she was working on and started another section. "Tell me captain, what will we be banging today?" Cindy smiled evilly. "Hermione's death at the failed hands of Harry Potter." The room fell quiet. Meg closed her eyes out of respect for the death of one she loves so dearly, but Derannimer was outraged. "*CAPTAIN*," she gasped spilling the bag of marshmallows. "What?" Cindy batted her eyes innocently. "Oh come now, I presented my case a while back. It is quite sound." "Yeah, and no one agreed with you then, and no one is now," Derannimer said resuming braiding. "Actually," Melody said in a small voice but firmly with a slight smile, "I am more prone to agree with Cindy here. If JKR is going to kill off a trio member, I am more incline to say Hermione is a goner." "Oh for the love of *Mike!*" interrupts Derannimer, rather rudely. "Mike?" Melody asked looking up quick and curiously at Derannimer. "Yes I said *Mike*," Derannimer continued darting her eyes between Cindy and Melody. *Mel*--you cannot actually *believe* that!" Melody cut her eyes up slyly. "Well I am a MDDT, anti-SHIPping, Barty Junior loving, no clever bashing in the safe house kind of girl. Seems the exact opposite of you in fact. You are lucky I did not draw my sword at your little 'love of all things screwed up' comment against MD earlier. You heard what happened to the last person whose tongue was quicker than their better judgment." "You mean you really did that to....to....*Elkins*?" Derannimer asked wide eyes. "It was almost as if I could not help myself," Melody grinned, "but please relax. I take my sword off at night. Digs into my back while I sleep." "Well, I keep the good old paddle at arms reach at all times," Cindy said gently stroking the handle. Melody noticed it was as well polished as Cedric's wand. "Guys, as charming as all this is..." Meg groaned from the stack of pillows she was lounged on, "I really think we should get back on track here. Now come you two. There is no *way* she is going to kill Hermione. None." "Oh I think there is, and no one had proven me wrong," Cindy said smugly. "And if JKR wants to kill a member of the trio before book seven, I see Hermione being the most expendable with the least amount of roughage," Melody said flatly. "Roughage?" Cindy asked raising an eyebrow. "Literary tears. Dishevelment. The world crashing down. I mean we hardly even know *her* parents," Melody said trying to clarify. Meg and Derannimer chewed on their bottom lip a bit, but did not say anything, but they were not in the least bit wanting to agree with Cindy and Melody here though. "Well, let's shift this a bit," Melody said hoping for a peace agreement in her bedroom, "let's look at it from this view point. What if Hermione *was* to die. Even if you do not think she will, just suspend that and wonder how JKR would kill her off. I think Harry failing in *her* death would be too hard on him." Cindy looked at her crest fallen. "What!" she exclaimed. Derannimer elbowed Meg and smiled. "Cindy," Melody bounced up and sat cross-legged facing the captain, "Harry failing in *Hermione's* death is like failing his sister. That is *too* hard for him. This is a boy after all. They seem to like to protect women. Comes from the stories they read, I think. And failing to protect the womenfolk they love runs number one on the list of things not to do." John rolled over on his cot and muttered, "If I caused Melmel's death I would be beyond inconsolable. In fact, I would be out and out suicidal." Melody smiled warmly at her brother while Derannimer and Meg softened their eyes to looked ever so compassionately at the sleeping boy while commenting, "That is ever so sweet." "So Cindy, Harry failing causing Hermione's death would be too hard a blow I think. *That* is going too far. But she can still die." Melody said with a shrug of her shoulders to encourage the captain that she still agreed with her and thusly annoying Meg and Derannimer more. "In fact, I really think if she doesn't, then she will be the sole survivor. So, do you think this will be a fairytale or Hamlet?" "God, I hope a fairytale," Meg chimed in first. "Not in that One Big Happy Weasley Family sort, mind you. I can't stand Ginny." She bristled at the last bit. "But I thought you liked her," Derannimer said defensively. "Oh hell no, she completely rubs me the wrong way," Meg said shaking her head vigorously causing her braided pigtails to hit her face, "she is weak, a threat to Harry's security, and worse of all, being groomed by Molly to marry Harry. But back on topic, not that I do not love Hamlet, but I do not want *everyone* to die." "Well," Melody said scooting over to reclaim a bit of her bed, "I kind of want a Hamlet. This is a complicated moral tale. Nothing is as black and white as it seems. Why would JKR switch on us and make it good guys win hands down no questions asked just because they are 'good'." "These are children's books?" Derannimer offered meekly. Cindy and Melody shook their heads in unison. "That is no excuse," Cindy said. "You see," Melody said fussing a bit with her blanket, "the stories that make you think. The tales that change lives. The books that take your breath back and hit you with the obvious that was always there but never seen until the precise perfect moment are the ones that manage to find that perfect balance between real life, fiction, and moral obligation of truth. I guess I just want JKR to do that. And frankly, the stories that have hit me that way have been Hamlet like." "Seems a lot of hope for these little Harry Potter books," Meg said quietly. "Maybe Meg," Melody said looking up wiping her eyes with the back of her hand, "but I do see the potential there. The potential of JKR bowling us all over." "Mel," Cindy said quietly besides her, "I think you shifted to book seven on us. Come back to this pressing issue before you confuse everyone with where you are going." "Oh. Sorry," Melody blushed sheepishly. "Quite alright," Derannimer smiled. "So, Harry failing. We all know he needs to, but in a death? In Hermione's death?" "Yes," Cindy said striking her fist to the pillow in her lap. "Ok, then *if* she is to die, then I want Voldemort to do it," Derannimer stated flatly. "Oh how *boring*," Melody chided. "I can see it now. 'Die mudblood scum' and she falls. Oh yeah. *That* is bangy. I was thinking that she could sacrifice herself..." "But Ron is the one that does that," Meg said looking up. "Yes, I know," Melody smiled, "so no one expects Hermione to do that, so anyway. Hermione is captured. See fairly easy to do in fact. How does that song go? Just a spoon full of sugar lures Hermione away?" Cindy raised an eyebrow at the girl, but let it slide. "Anyway...she is held random. Or rather bait. And they come to get her, but then there is a choice that must be made, and she seeing what has to be done, sacrifices herself to keep Harry from having to make it. Come now. Seems fitting. Valiant. Courageous. All the nice adjectives." "And Harry could be in the dark. Wand raised. Lit by candles looking for her..." Cindy said lost in thought. "Ok, nice there Captain," Derannimer stated, "but that is more book six or seven. Not five. Five is too soon for her to die. The dynamic of the books is thrown off too soon." "Well maybe, yes," Melody said, "but really Hermione is kind of cursorily to Ron. "It is Ron that Harry truly leans on. Hermione's role is more expendable. Harry does know how to read for himself you know." "Mel, she is too needed," Meg pouted. "You have been warped by Brian and the Captain too much. How can you say this?" "Meg, it will be boring is all that goes on in the trio is they talk, something happens to Harry, his life is in danger...again, they go to Hagrid's hut, they talk some more, Harry moons over Cho, Ron secretly moons over Hermione, Harry get *another* new broom, Hermione acts like she does not care or notice boys, they all *talk*, they run to the library to save the day, more talking, small spat between Ron and Hermione, Draco bothers them like a mosquito waiting to be swatted, Harry wanders off and feels isolated once again, they *keep* *talking*. Maybe I am getting jaded, maybe I am being a bit to melancholy and pessimistic about all this, but I do really want them to do *something* besides wander the school acting like...like..." "Fifteen year olds," Cindy offered laughing. "Yeah," Melody said blushing again. A voice from across the room chimed in again. "Melmel, fifteen year old boys do shift hormone wise and do start wanting to have girls around more. I think you can safely say that GoF is a turning point socially for the trio." Cindy and Derannimer looked over at the curly mass of hair that poked out of the covers while Meg crept over to the sleeping boy. "Mel, I thought he was asleep." "Oh yes. He is," Melody said. "He just can carry on conversations through his sleep. My mom loves to mess with him, because he never remembers any of it in the morning." "Oh I do that too," Meg said enthusiastically. "But, Mel, can we poke him with a stick of something? I want him to play with us." "Naw, never wake a sleep boy is my motto. They are always nicer in the morning after they have their beauty sleep," Melody said stretching her arms back and yawning. She was getting a bit tired. She could never pull all niters. Melody (1) quote from the movie "Ever After". and realized she finally posted a response to Cindy's tbay two weeks later. ::blushing:: Sorry Cindy. From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Fri Mar 28 06:33:34 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 06:33:34 -0000 Subject: Ferret Theme In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54485 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "werebearloony" wrote: > Book 1: I have never found a ferret mention in book 1. Having done a search, there are no ferrets in book 1. > Book 2: "Mortlake had to be taken in [to the department of > experimental charms] for having some very odd ferrets."(The > Burrow) > The ferrets had somehow been cursed or changed. This is the only occurance of the word "ferret" in book two. > Book 3: Buckbeak eats a ferret. When Hagrid is talking to Harry and > Ron about their treatment of Hermione Buckbeak spits some ferret > bones onto Hagrid's pillow. (Snape's Grudge) It also mentions that Buckbeak was "enjoying a large plate of dead ferrets" earlier in the conversation. > Book 4: Rita Skeeter is constantly being compared with a ferret, > e.g. "Rita Skeeter's been ferreting around all week " > (Mayhem at the > Ministry) Buckbeak is also mentioned "ferreting around" for bones when Harry is with Sirius. (Padfoot Returns) >Malfoy was transfigured by Moody into a ferret and bounced > around the entrance hall (Mad-Eye Moody) Harry also worries about Moody turning *him* into a ferret: "Would Moody go to Dumbledore and tell on Hagrid, or just turn Harry into a ferret? Well, it might be easier to get past a dragon if he were a ferret, Harry thought dully, he'd be smaller, much less easy to see from a height of fifty feet.."(The First Task) And, of course, Hermione throws the ferret incident in Dracos face: "Twitchy little ferret, aren't you, Malfoy?" (The Yule Ball) > This is my pet project, I think I've found all of the ferret > references in the book, but if you have found one that I didn't > list > here (except for more Rita/Ferret details which I left out so as not > to bore you too much) please tell me. Especially if you have found > one in book 1! Those are the only references I found, and given that I was searching electronic copies, any other references should have turned up... --Arcum From jillily3g at yahoo.com Fri Mar 28 05:53:58 2003 From: jillily3g at yahoo.com (jillily3g) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 05:53:58 -0000 Subject: Just how important *is* this guy? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54486 I found this website on the mythological Daedalus: http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Daedalus.html He seems to have been credited with a lot of inventions, and always on the run! Beth From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Mar 28 10:38:08 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 10:38:08 -0000 Subject: Graveyard scene In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54487 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > Annemehr: > > Still, none of this negates my point that it is not likely Peter would > have abandoned his wand at the scene if he could have kept it. > > Annemehr > resolving to be more careful in future and not rely on remembered > quotes such as "...the biggest bit they found of [Pettigrew] was his > finger" and assume that that was *all* they found... Wizards *would* think he'd not abandon his wand, Pettigrew knows this. It's not the *finger* showing he's dead, it's his *wand*. Wizard authorities believed Pettigrew dead *because* 'no wizard would ever leave his wand behind' - which is why he did it. Two things would prove wizard dead to a wizard: dead body or a wand left behind. A lost finger simply isn't enough to prove that someone's dead. As to how he lost it - he has cut his *hand* off! Finger is small thing compared to that. Perhaps, on the day he decided to betray his friends, he cut that finger off (possibly planted it back by magic, but so he could leave it behind at will) - as one part of him that was loyal? Bloody clothes: A fake. He did leave something that looked like blood to pretend he had been eaten by Crookshanks... where did he get that in short notice? Same place he got the blood on the clothes he left behind, I presume... What ever else, Pettigrew is a master in pretending death in order to survive. If he ever decides to leave Voldemort, he'd have to cut off the hand Voldemort created... -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Mar 28 11:10:51 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 11:10:51 -0000 Subject: Saint Hedwig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54488 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mrflynn6" wrote: > I just found this interesting tidbit of information on Saint Hedwig, > who lived in the late 1100's-early 1200's. The Order of sisters that > have adopted her name focus on educatating orphaned and abandonded > children. Possible speculation as to the significance this might > play in the books? > > Gretchen Well, Harry's orphaned and abandoned - his only connection to friends is Hedwig. And, Hedwig also shows her mind to Harry (who had been so ungrateful after so long fly from Sirius). Hedwig's Harry's way to gain information (from Hermione or Sirius). That snow-white Owl is Harry's sole connection to his friends, to a world that accepts him... Though Harry may start a foundation to help other orphaned children and name it after his owl at some point... Anyway, maybe Rowling just liked the name and put that in as a helpful Owl to care for Harry... -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Mar 28 11:42:28 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 11:42:28 -0000 Subject: What Can Apparate? My Theory/ Summoning vs "transfer" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54489 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Gina R Rosich wrote: > > I think the lake, and the forbidden forest, are both ?protected lands? > owned by Hogwarts. So, magical creatures are specifically given invitation > to live there. And while I could easily see the ship being navigated > through magical or underground water streams, I wonder how the Beauxbatons > travelled through the air without being noticed by Muggles. The Ford Anglia > was seen by many. > > And while we?re on the giant squid, PLEASE, I beg of you all, do not get > started on that theory that Dumbledore is the giant squid. I?m begging you. > > Gina Well, for the matter of Carriage not beeing seen while Ford Anglia was, well... the Ford Anglia seen was driven by Ron who didn't know how to disguise it, or even how to properly fly it (considering they hit Whomping Willow). This carriage was flown by people who know what they're doing. I'd imagine the Muggles saw clouds... What comes to the Durmstrang students "steering" the ship while their head-master stayed in his cabin... well, supposedly that's part of their education. School-ship. How they got to the lake... maybe the lake *has* some sort of connection to the sea, one that's underwater? The Durmstrang ship seemed like a submarine to me... And er - maybe their school *is* that ship? Submarine in the North Ice Sea (what Muggle would see *that*?) would be where Durmstrang might be... and compass is rather useless in North Pole... and a moving school just *can't* be mapped! And that flying Horse-carriage in clouds... Thunder.. any escaped magic is a lightning, a weather phenomenon... -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Mar 28 11:01:19 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 11:01:19 -0000 Subject: Just how important *is* this guy?/violet-theme? In-Reply-To: <26.370aa45d.2bb4cab3@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54490 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > Greicy: > > > Annemehr: > > >But really! Three or four mentions in the beginning of the first > > >book, and then (as far as I can remember), nothing? If Dedalus > > >Diggle never shows up in a place of importance, I will personally > > >*locate* a violet top hat and then *eat* it! > > > > I've always been suspicious of him, too. Is he a good guy or bad > > guy? What's the deal with him that JKR keeps mentioning him? Eloise: > No specific evidence for this theory, but you know who designed the > Minotaur's maze? That's right, Daedalus! > > I've always liked to assume that perhaps it was Daedalus Diggle who designed > the maze for the Third Task. At the very least, I am sure that there is a > tenuous connection in the back of JKR's mind, planning a maze for the fourth > book and using the name of a maze-builder in the first. > I kind of *like* Dedalus Diggle, and was amazed that he was not seen again after first book. Maze-designer? Like that idea... Brilliant but mad? I remember Dumbledore referred so somewhere. He wears violet, and Gryffindor Tower's entrance-painting is friends with Violet. A connection? Then, violet is also a flower - are there violets in Petunia's flower- bed? Possibly the one where that 'teenage boy' is laying. Dedalus Diggle has met all Dursleys AND Harry pre-Hogwarts letter. He's another character with a remembarable name, much like Mundungus Fletcher. Where is Diggle now? in Kent? Well, I guess Dumbledore sends him an owl at some point... -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Mar 28 12:01:41 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 12:01:41 -0000 Subject: Meeting Arabella (WAS Re: New/Old Friends?) In-Reply-To: <20030328050809.82216.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54491 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maria Kirilenko wrote: > > So your scenario doesn't work. I think that bboy's scenario is very likely. Although I'd personally enjoy it more if Harry walked into the DADA classroom. Harry's reaction would be fun to read. It also might spur some questions in Harry's mind - like why exactly was there a witch living so very close to him, and why did she never tell him she wasa witch. The Dumbledore Tells All (about Arabella ) scene might occur shortly afterward. > Or it could be something simpler. If we take that the flower-bed image is Harry dreaming of his own funerals (So far, there's been a dream in beginning of nearly every book (flying motorcycle, just before zoo - Harry in cage; don't recall, but was there one in PoA? - and then the dream of Little Whingington from Frank Bryce-view) - so well, maybe it *is* a dream and he might mention it in a letter to Sirius. Hedwig flys off and returns *shortly* with a reply where Sirius tells Harry to meet him at Figg's. Harry goes and meets also Remus Lupin, Mundungus Fletcher, Albus Dumbledore and Fawkes. Maybe Didalus Diggle, too. Perhaps Alastor Moody. I do think that Dumbledore might respond with a "sit down Harry, and I tell you everything" to Harry's surprise. Oh, and Question Harry should have asked long time ago: "Why does Mrs Figg have so many cats?" -- Finwitch From tminton at deckerjones.com Fri Mar 28 14:17:45 2003 From: tminton at deckerjones.com (Tonya Minton) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 08:17:45 -0600 Subject: The Longbottems (was OoP Book Covers also The certian room) Message-ID: <43716000B5B3D6119934006097E4668C20E5EC@djmail.deckerjones.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54492 Hi all, Last night I was reading GOP for about the 10th time and I wonder if there could be something that the Longbottem's know. Before the Quiddich World Cup when the Malfoys came into the top box the Fudge said "Mr. Malfoy have just given a huge donation to St. Mungo's". Why would Malfoy donate to St. Mungo's? What could the Longbottems know that Voldemort wants to keep hidden?? Tonya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From heidit at netbox.com Fri Mar 28 15:22:14 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 11:22:14 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Longbottems (was OoP Book Covers also The certian room) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54493 Tonya wrote: **Why would Malfoy donate to St. Mungo's? ** It's entirely possible that Lucius donates to St Mungo's to keep a modicum of control over the Longbottoms, but it's unlikely that Voldemort has anything to do with it, as he was Missing before they were driven insane, and Lucius's donation was made about a year before Voldemort's reappearance. It's also possible that jkr mentioned St Mungo's as the recipient of Malfoy largesse because it's the one charitable and nonMinistry institution we know of at that point in the books. It's not unusual for wealthy people to donate to medical causes - jkr does it herself - so it's the sort of thing that Lucius could do to improve/preserve his position as the generous wizard. Heidi Tandy *Ask me about Nimbus - 2003* Http://www.hp2003.org From mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com Fri Mar 28 15:39:22 2003 From: mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com (Edward Post) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 10:39:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Longbottems (was OoP Book Covers also The certian room) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54494 Tonya wrote and asked: >Hi all, >Last night I was reading GOP for about the 10th time and I wonder if >there >could be something that the Longbottem's know. Before the >Quiddich World >Cup when the Malfoys came into the top box the Fudge >said "Mr. Malfoy have >just given a huge donation to St. Mungo's". > >Why would Malfoy donate to St. Mungo's? > >What could the Longbottems know that Voldemort wants to keep hidden?? > >Tonya > To which Mr. Ed replies (in complete speculation): I've wondered if Secret Keepers can unwillingly be put into their position. That, to me, would explain why the Longbottoms are alive, especially given, sad to say, how easy and 'clean' it is to kill in the Wizarding World. If a secret can be stored in a living soul -- and if that soul is deemed "crazy" or is actually mentally impaired so much to be non-communicative, what better soul (from the dark perspective) to burden with a nasty yet important secret can there be? Mr. Ed (who wonders why Tonya consults so frequently with the US's Republican Party to answer her excellent questions about the British Wizarding World!) _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From abigailnus at yahoo.com Fri Mar 28 15:43:09 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 15:43:09 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Failure and Melodrama In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54495 "So, is this a private party, or can anybody join?" As one, the four women toasting Smores around Melody's fireplace turn to greet the new arrival. In the corner, the blanket-covered form of a man snores obliviously. "Abigail!" Derannimer gasps. "What are you doing in the Safe House? Why, you're an even greater anti-MD enthusiast then I am!" Abigail smiles. "As the MDDT repeatedly informs me, the Safe House and MD are not synonymous. As a red-blooded TBAY denizen I have as much right to be here as anyone." "Also, you heard Melody saying that she didn't wear her sword to bed." Captain Cindy astutely points out. "Well, there's that too." Abigail grabs a stool from the corner and finds herself a comfortable spot in front of the fire. "I hear...pass me a marshmallow, Cindy, would you? ...that you've been discussing failure." "That's right." Says Cindy, who's not that pleased about the number of marshmallows Abigail has loaded on her spike. "Harry's led a charmed life up until now. He's been so perfect. It's time for him to fail, and big." "I'm not so certain that I agree with the statement that Harry is perfect." Abigail says thoughtfully. "At least, I'm pretty certain that Harry doesn't perceive himself as infallible. In fact, if you asked Harry to describe himself, I suspect that 'average' would be the operative word. He doesn't think of himself as very bright or very interesting or very special." Melody smirks. "You can't expect us to take Harry's skewed world-view at face value, Abigail! Harry is notoriously self-depreciating and hyper-critical of himself. Not to mention that we weren't discussing whether or not Harry would acknowledge his failure, but whether JKR would objectively show him failing to achieve a goal strictly through his own fault. In that sense, Harry has been infallible." Abigail blows on a smoking marshmallow. "That depends." "On what?" Meg asks. "On your definition of failure." Cindy throws up her hands in the air. "There it is!" She cries. "It's always the same with this girl! You can't discuss anything with her for more then five minutes before she starts talking about *definitions*." Cindy leans over the rather large expanse of Melody's bed that she's claimed as her own territory, as close as she can get to Abigail's face without actually leaving the bed. "Failure, as in the opposite of success. The term doesn't lend itself to a lot of ambiguity." "I think it does." Answers Abigail, who has backed so far away from Cindy that she is in danger of catching fire. "At least, you seem to have separated it into two distinct categories. There's failure as Harry perceives it, such as losing the Quidditch match in PoA and not being able to save Cedric's life. We, and the people around Harry, know that he had no power over these events, but he won't accept that, and judges himself very harshly. What you seem to be lamenting is the absence of a failure that is actually Harry's fault. I just don't really understand why. Harry already beats himself up too much - does it really matter if he does it without justification? The emotional result is the same. Harry resolves to do better - in PoA, for example, he seeks out a form of defense against the Dementors, and perseveres with it far past the bounds of reason, simply so that he won't fail his team in another Quidditch match. And that's the point of failure, isn't it? We learn from our mistakes, if we survive them. They galvanize us and encourage us to do and be better. Harry's already got that dynamic, and in fact it's working in overdrive, so I find it interesting that you're all so eager to see him genuinely fall on his face. It suggests an ulterior motive." Abigail's face takes on an impish expression. "Perhaps what we're looking at is a secret desire for Angst, or even... Hurt-Comfort?" For a few minutes, the only sound in the room is that of the fire crackling and spitting. An uncomfortable silence draws over the five women, broken only by the occasional snore. Abigail is beginning to feel a distinct *atmosphere*, and hastens to change the subject. "Anyway," She says hurriedly, "even in the objective, JKR-and-the-readers-and-the-people-around-Harry-see-failure sense, I think Harry has failed plenty of times. He just hasn't done it when it counts, and frankly, I find it hard to wish that he would, especially when the stakes are getting so high. Harry has failed in the mundane ways that all of us do, which are of course the most important failures of all. In his first year of school, he becomes a virtual pariah for costing his house 50 points. In his second year, he utterly fails to stop Lockhart from using him as a publicity stunt, and manages to get the entire school to believe that he is a murderer. In Harry's third year, he not only suffers an extreme crisis of character when he abuses his privileges for a frivolous cause by sneaking off to Hogsmeade, and he is utterly unsuccessful in defusing a difficult situation between his two best friends, *and* he fails to notice Hermione's increasingly agitated mental state. All of this, of course, pales in comparison to his behavior during GoF, in which he so mismanages Ron's feelings that at one point he actually throws a sharp object at his best friend - in my opinion Harry's all-time emotional low-point." "You can't seriously be arguing that these are Harry's failures." Derannimer claims. "Why, half of them aren't even Harry's doing, and none of them Bang!" "Harry may not have made Lockhart the publicity-hound that he is, but he certainly could have handled the situation with him better." Abigail says. "No he couldn't." Answers Melody. "He was only twelve at the time." "Well, that's the point, isn't it?" Says Abigail, reaching over for another helping of marshmallows. "He had to learn not to let people use him. And he hasn't yet - if GoF he once again fails to prevent himself from being seen as a publicity-hungry idiot. These are the true failures of life - the way you can never quite be that suave, brilliant person that you always imagine yourself to be. This is what keeps Harry from being some squeaky-clean, all-English hero in a billowing cape - the fact that he is often flustered, frequently confused, and does in fact fall flat on his face more then a little." "It still doesn't Bang." Offers Cindy, who is now eyeing the marshmallow bag very balefully indeed. Abigail winces. "I'm glad that Banging has been brought up, although I'm afraid that now I am going to have to delve into definitions, because what you four have been calling Bangs, I call melodrama. I have to agree with everything Derannimer said about Cindy's Dead!Hermione theory, but even if I were to accept that Hermione might die (and it would definitely be in book 7 if it happens at all) I certainly wouldn't accept the scenario that you lot cooked up." "You mean," Cried Melody, eyes glittering in the firelight, "The one where Hermione is held ransom. And they come to get her, but then there is a choice that must be made, and she seeing what has to be done, sacrifices herself to keep Harry from having to make it?" "And Harry could be in the dark. Wand raised. Lit by candles looking for her..." Cindy says lost in thought. Abigail looks, dumbstruck, from one glowing face to the other. "Have you both lost your mind?!" She exclaims finally, leaping from her seat and scattering marshmallows every which way. "Where, in the entirety of canon, has there ever been a scene of such obvious... such obscene... such..." "Emotion?" Suggests Derannimer. "Pathos?" Offers Meg. "Spine-chilling terror?" Muses Cindy. "Soul-shattering, cinema-like sadness?" Volunteers Melody, with a happy smile. "Pap!" Abigail spits out, finally. "Cliche! Puerile, B-movie death-fetish!" "Oh, dear." Whispers Melody to Cindy as she backs away from Abigail, her stool held legs-out at chest height as though she were a lion tamer. "This is Dishwasher!Dumbledore all over again. Don't worry, I keep a tranquilizer gun in my bedside table just for such occasions." But Abigail seems to be calming down. Certainly she isn't actually frothing at the mouth any more. She takes several deep breaths, and looks at the four frightened and shocked faces surrounding her. "I apologize." She says finally, a bit weakly. "That was a bit more... strongly worded then I had originally planned. But I do stand by my words, or a more reasonably stated version thereof. JKR doesn't deal in melodrama, which can be defined as..." Like a conjurer, Abigail pulls a doorstop-sized dictionary from a coat pocket. "A drama, such as a play, film, or television program, characterized by exaggerated emotions, stereotypical characters, and interpersonal conflicts." She closes the book with a satisfying thump. "Snape dying in Harry's arms, after taking an AK for him, and saying with his last breath 'You have your mother's eyes' is a melodrama, and so is Hermione valiantly sacrificing herself for Harry's sake." Abigail suddenly frowns. "And anyway, don't you think we have quite enough sacrificial females in this series already?" "So what are you saying?" Melody asks, pointedly ignoring Abigail's last remark. "That no one will ever sacrifice their life for Harry? Again, I mean? That all deaths will deliberately be as undramatic as possible?" "No," Abigail admits. "I'm certain that we will see all the elements from which melodrama is crafted - sacrificial deaths, impossible choices, glorious last stands. It's just that... well, I think you said it best, Melody. What were you saying before, about your favorite kind of fiction?" "Oh?" Melody blinks. "Well, I said that the stories that make you think. The tales that change lives. The books that take your breath back and hit you with the obvious that was always there but never seen until the precise perfect moment are the ones that manage to find that perfect balance between real life, fiction, and moral obligation of truth. And frankly, the stories that have hit me that way have been Hamlet like." "Hamlet." Abigail says softly. "A veritable cornucopia of melodramatic elements. The evil uncle. The fickle mother. The tragic, accidental and entirely preventable deaths of countless innocents. But is Hamlet a melodrama?" "What you're saying." Says Cindy. "Is that in the hands of an artist, even the most ridiculous plot becomes art. Shakespeare gives Hamlet and his plucked-from-a-soap-opera family genuine depth, and so, even though the play ends with the stage littered with bodies, it touches our souls. But actually, you're undercutting your own point. JKR is a fine writer. She could take a warmed-over plot device such as Hermione sacrificing herself for Harry and make it resonate." "Maybe so." Abigail concedes. "But lets look at the deaths that JKR has written so far. Look at Cedric. He could have had a valiant last stand. I'm sure he would have pulled it off. Been all stiff-upper-lip about it, stood up to Voldemort to the very end. Met death with honor. Instead he's killed off in an instant, offhand. He's the spare. That's what makes it horrible - this good, brave boy who's life is extinguished in a second because he's at the wrong place at the wrong time. JKR is purposefully and powerfully hammering in the point that death is awful. She's standing against the death-fetish that Harry seems to have bought into." "That's the second time you've brought up death-fetish" Meg points out. "What are you talking about?" Now Abigail's eyes glitter, as if she's been waiting for someone to ask that very question. She raises her voice just a little. "The fascination with 'an honorable death'. The way that Voldemort manages to get Harry to stand up in front of an AK bolt because Harry wants to die standing straight like his father. Do you know what I find to be one of the most disturbing elements of wizarding culture?" "The fact that they're all walking around in bathrobes?" Says a muffled male voice from the corner. Abigail frowns. "Well, that too, actually, but I was thinking about dueling. I had no problem with dueling when it was introduced in CoS because I thought that it was a sport, like fencing. I assumed that, like fencing, it originated from violent combat, but was now strictly an athletic pursuit. I was disturbed (although given the wizard world's warrior culture I probably shouldn't have been surprised) when Voldemort introduced dueling as an actual battle to the death, and then *insisted that he and Harry bow to each other*. How screwed up is that? Why should Harry offer any courtesy to a man who wants to kill him?" "But he doesn't." Cindy points out. "Voldemort has to force Harry to bow." "Not because Harry believes that the 'formalities' are a crock when you're actually fighting for you life." Abigail answers. "Harry refuses to bow because his hatred for Voldemort outweighs his so-called honor. The fact that he stands up to meet Voldemort's spell later proves that. The entire attitude of 'just because we're here to kill one another doesn't mean we can't be civil to each other' is, in my opinion, disrespectful to life, and I think JKR is making that point when she doesn't give Cedric an honorable death." "What about the other death that we witness?" Asks Derannimer. "Lily and James Potter? They had a protracted death scene, and much is made of them sacrificing themselves for their son." "But there death isn't the point." Abigail insists. "Life is, and love. Lily and James don't die out of a desire to grandstand, or to be perceived as martyrs. James sacrifices himself so that his wife might live, Lily does the same for her son. It brushes right up against the border of melodrama, but it's saved because we concentrate on the good that came of it - Harry's life, more then a decade of peace." "In my scenario, Hermione wouldn't be sacrificing herself in order to grandstand." Says Melody. "No, but the writer would be grandstanding through her." Abigail replies. "Look at brave Hermione - how noble, how valiant, how selfless. That's the problem with melodramas - no one appreciates the gravity of death. It's finality. People die of anger or love or shame, when in fact they should be clinging to life with their fingernails, because it is too precious to let go of. So many people in the Potterverse have fought death with every breath they had left, isn't it disgraceful, to embrace it in the name of honor and drama? And let's look at the other climaxes of the Potter books. The people who grandstand, who are theatrical, are the bad guys. And almost all of them fail *because* of that grandstanding. If Voldemort had killed Harry the minute he was rebodied, or hadn't forced him to duel, or if Crouch Jr. hadn't wasted time by telling Harry about the glorious rewards Voldemort would lavish upon him, Harry would be long dead. I think JKR is trying to show us that this is a serious business, and people who spend time showing off like idiots will never succeed." Abigail stands up and reacher into yet another pocket. She retrieves a dog-eared paperback with a colorful, cartoonish cover, flips furiosly through if for several moments, and begins to read. ---------------- Something Vimes had learned as a young guard drifted up from memory. If you *have* to look along the shaft of an arrow from the wrong end, if a man has you entirely at his mercy, the hope like hell that man is an evil man. Because the evil like power, power over people, and they want to see you in fear. They want you to *know* you're going to die. So they'll talk. They'll gloat. They'll watch you *squirm*. They'll put off the moment of murder like another man will put off a good cigar. So hope like hell your captor is an evil man. A good man will kill you with hardly a word. ---------------- Abigail closes the book and stows it in one of her many pockets. "Men At Arms, by Terry Pratchett." She says. "A very wise man. Sometimes it's necessary to die. Sometimes it's necessary to kill. It is never necessary to make a big production out of either. This isn't a game. This is life and death." Meg groans, holding her head with both hands. "How did we get to this discussion, Abigail?" She asks. "You came here to talk about failure." Abigail blushes. "That's right. And then I heard you saying that the things Harry truly cares about are Quidditch and death. You all assumed that Harry's big failure would be about death. In fact, that's been going on for months. Just look at the predictions people make about the coming books. Why, by the time we get to book 7, there are more dead characters then living ones. It just seems to belittle the importance of death. How shattering is it that a character dies if it happens every other week?" "Hang on!" Cried Cindy. "This is too much! You barge in here, you derail our discussion with disjointed musings, you scarf up all the marshmallows, and now you're seriously going to suggest that Harry's great failure is going to about... *Quidditch*?" Have you taken leave of your senses?" Abigail glances down at the empty marshmallow bag she seems to be holding. "Are you sure this was all me?" She asks. "I mean, I think I saw Derannimer take one." "That was an hour ago." Derannimer says coldly. "Oh. Sorry." Abigail tries to smile, but Cindy is gripping her big paddle in a way that is both very familiar and very disturbing. "But I do think that I can offer a big failure for Harry that is about Quidditch and isn't insignificant. We're all wondering who the next Quidditch captain is going to be, right? And I don't think I'm alone in concluding that it will be Harry." "Are you going to suggest that Harry will mismanage the team?" Asks Melody scornfully. "You think that's meaningful, in the grand scheme of things?" "Actually, I do." Answer Abigail. "Think about it - Harry's first role as a leader, and he fails. That's big. But I was actually going to make it bigger then that. What if Harry neglects the Quidditch team, because he's too busy fighting evil on Dumbledore's team? He has to choose between what's perceived as important and what he knows is important, and he loses out, because his teammates are angry at him (and probably the rest of the house too). This is a grown-up's problem, and that's another thing that failures are good for - they force us to grow up. Only children think that they, or anyone else, is infallible. That's why I liked Derannimer's suggestion that Harry will witness Snape allowing Hagrid to die. Because even though I think Hagrid's actual death in this scenario is overwrought, the idea that Harry should learn that sometimes you have to choose the lesser evil, and that he should learn this lesson from Snape, is compelling." "How does that Bang?" Asks Cindy. "How does is motivate Harry to get Voldemort?" "Since when does Harry need motivation to get Voldemort?" Abigail asks with a quizzical expression. "Isn't it enough that Voldemort killed Harry's parents and brought untold suffering to thousands? Harry sees every day the unhealed scars of Voldemort's reign of terror. It seems silly to suggest that he needs yet another death of a loved one to have a personal stake in Voldemort's demise. And as for Bangs. Not all Bangs involve death and destruction. Growing up is as painful and difficult as rescuing a Hippogriff or facing a deranged Dark wizard. I think that Harry finding himself in a situation where he simply cannot succeed, despite doing all the right things, reverberates as deeply as any Bang you could suggest. And by keeping it relatively low-key, JKR avoids the pitfall of cheapening true horror - death and evil - by giving it to us too often." Once again, Melody's room is silent. Abigail digs in one of her bottomless pockets and produces another bag of marshmallows, which Cindy unceremoniously takes away from her and places on the farthest side of the room from where Abigail is sitting. Finally, Derannimer speaks. "So, let me see if I got this right." She says. "Harry won't fail to save someone's life. He'll fail at Quidditch, at leading a team. Possibly because of his obligations to Dumbledore. And this is supposed to show us that the most important mistakes in life are the mundane ones, right?" "Right." Nods Abigail, eyeing the marshmallows covetously. "And by avoiding excessive deaths, JKR doesn't cheapen life and the horror of death." "Uh-huh." "And you needed an hour to tell us all this *because*?" Once again, Melody's room is silent. Abigail From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 28 16:48:11 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 16:48:11 -0000 Subject: Ferrets, Otters and Weasels (WAS: Ferret Theme) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54496 Loony wrote: > Have you noticed that ferrets seem to come up a lot in the HP > books? Now me: This may be a bit of a stretch, but it's never stopped me before... The ferret is a member of a family of animals that includes the weasel and the (sea) otter. In addition to numerous references to ferrets, there are also numerous references to weasels and otters in the HP series. Most obviously, the Weasley family name. Less obviously, the Weasley's house is near the village of *Ottery* St. Catchpole, and the Weasleys, the Diggorys and Harry find the Portkey to the Quidditch World Cup at the top of *Stoats*head Hill. Not to mention Hagrid's inedible *stoat* sandwiches... For those of us who believe in the Harry as Heir of Gryffindor theory - it was the life of St. Cuthbert which influenced St. Godric to become religious. In one of the legends about St. Cuthbert, when Cuthbert went to the beach to pray, sea otters would try to dry his feet with their fur and warm his feet with their breath. After St. Cuthbert blessed them, the otters returned to the sea (see: http://users.erols.com/saintpat/22/0320.htm). These references put otters into a positive light, and are suggestive of otters and weasels symbolizing those who do good. Moreover, when asked about what her animagus would be, JKR stated: "I personally would like to think that I would transform into an otter, which is my favorite animal" (see: http://www.kidsreads.com/harrypotter/chattranscript.html). On http://home.worldonline.nl/%7Ewfu/ferret.html: "The famous Greek playwright Aristophanes mentioned ferrets in his satire 'The Acheans' around the year 450 B.C. He compared these people with ferrets, who had already established a reputation for themselves as thieves." Which is suggestive of ferrets symbolizing evil-doers. And, as you've pointed out, JKR does not put ferrets in a positive light in the HP books. So...where am I going with all of this? I think in JKR's HP universe, the weasel and otter references symbolize good, while the ferret symbolizes evil. Since the ferret is part of the same family as the weasel and the otter, in JKR's world, the ferret symbolizes how poor choices can lead a person from a potential for a life of good to a life of evil instead. So, the wand with Fawkes' tail feather saw the potential for greatness in Tom Riddle and "chose" him, while its brother wand "chose" Harry. Two wands from the same "family", but one "family" member (Voldemort) chose to be evil (choosing the path of the ferret) while the other "family" member (Harry) is choosing to fight evil (choosing the path of the weasel/otter). ~Phyllis with no offense meant to ferret owners! From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Mar 28 17:05:30 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 17:05:30 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Graveyard scene References: Message-ID: <3E8480DA.000004.56741@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 54497 -------Original Message------- From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Date: 28 March 2003 11:54:01 To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Graveyard scene --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > Annemehr: > > Still, none of this negates my point that it is not likely Peter would > have abandoned his wand at the scene if he could have kept it. > > Annemehr > resolving to be more careful in future and not rely on remembered > quotes such as "...the biggest bit they found of [Pettigrew] was his > finger" and assume that that was *all* they found... Finwitch then argued - Wizards *would* think he'd not abandon his wand, Pettigrew knows this. It's not the *finger* showing he's dead, it's his *wand*. Wizard authorities believed Pettigrew dead *because* 'no wizard would ever leave his wand behind' - which is why he did it. Two things would prove wizard dead to a wizard: dead body or a wand left behind. Now me - But they believed that Sirius caused such a large explosion that all that survived was Peter's finger. They would have just assumed his wand was vaporised as well. they had witnesses to prove that Sirius blew him up and Sirius wasn't saying anything different - and even if he had been they probably wouldn't have believed him. No I can't see any reason why he wouldn t keep his wand. However since Voldemort had been weakened so much by Harry I am amazed he stayed in the country. He was supposedly dead so no one would have been looking for him, he could have hopped on a boat (as a rat) to somewhere like Australia and then lived as a muggle a lot more comfortably than living as a rat. Despite what he said to Sirius and remus in the Shack about only acting out of fear he obviously has some level of committment to the 'cause' or he wouldn't still be hanging around Hogwarts as a rat so many years later. K From kkearney at students.miami.edu Fri Mar 28 17:45:35 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 17:45:35 -0000 Subject: Just how important *is* this guy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54498 Annemehr wrote: > I wonder if he could have been involved in setting up the protection > around Harry for when Harry is in his relations care? Then he may > well have had a *reason* to come in contact with Vernon, and perhaps > Petunia and Dudley too, though we do not see it (and if it happened > while Dudley was kicking Petunia all the way up the street, screaming > for sweets, she may well not have even noticed). This would put him > deep into Dumbledore's crowd. He may drop into Little Whinging from > time to time just to check on things, and Harry spotted him once in > the shop. Even the meeting in the LC could be related to his > responsibility. So what if McGonagall thinks he never had much sense? > It seems wizards can be quite eccentric, and maybe Diggle is > brilliant, but a bit mad (sound familiar?). And that name -- Dedalus > -- can he be some genius magical inventor? Hmmm... I definitely think, based on his constant mention and the mythological references of his name, that Daedelus Diggle will play a larger role in upcoming books. However , his actions regarding Harry strike me as too irresponsible for him to be involved in Harry's protection. The method of protection is obviously a matter of extreme secrecy. I think those in charge of it are very aware of Harry's situation before he received his Hogwarts letter, and wouldn't do anything to draw unnecessary attention to themselves. A member of the Old Crowd, now I like this idea. We don't know much about them, but the crowd didn't seem to be composed of the most accomplished of the wizarding world. So far, the only ones we've been introduced to specifically had only just graduated. Not to say they weren't extremely intelligent and capable, but it seems Dumbledore stayed away from the more experienced and capable people who could have any ties with Voldemort (MoM officials, aurors, etc.). I rather like the idea of the Old Crowd being a mix of the best and brightest of those who wanted to help the fight against Voldemort but whom the MoM would not take seriously (young students, eccentric but brilliant scientists, young reformed ex-Death Eaters, etc.). The only thing going against the theory of Diggle being part of the Old Crowd is that I would expect him to be a bit more upset about James' and Lily's deaths at the time he hugged Vernon Dursley. Of course, that character's similarity to Diggle could easily be just a coincidence. -Corinth From urbana at charter.net Fri Mar 28 18:41:10 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 18:41:10 -0000 Subject: Graveyard scene In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54499 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > A lost finger simply isn't enough to prove that someone's dead. As to > how he lost it - he has cut his *hand* off! Finger is small thing > compared to that. Perhaps, on the day he decided to betray his > friends, he cut that finger off (possibly planted it back by magic, > but so he could leave it behind at will) - as one part of him that > was loyal? ME: I thought Pettigrew cut his hand off at the graveyard in GOF -- wasn't "hand of the servant" part of the "potion" for the incantation that brought Voldemort's body back? I am pretty sure (don't have my POA here, it's at home) that Sirius explained in the Shrieking Shack that Pettigrew cut off his own finger out in the street when he killed the dozen Muggles, then transfigured into a rat so he could escape -- leaving his finger and his wand behind as proof of his "death". Anne U ("I let you sleep in my BED all those years!" - disgusted Ron, POA) From mbush at lainc.com Fri Mar 28 19:03:54 2003 From: mbush at lainc.com (mtwelovett) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 19:03:54 -0000 Subject: The Dursleys' role (was New/Old Friends?) In-Reply-To: <20030327032111.23353.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54500 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Andrea wrote: > --- J wrote: > > I don't know if this has been discussed before but could Petunia be a > > squib? > > Was that why she was so angry when her sister received the letter and > > her > > parents were so happy? Also why she was so adamant that Harry would > > know > > nothing of his heritage? > > I'm not inclined to think Petunia's a Squib, because it was said at > several points that Lily was either a Muggle-born witch or from a Muggle > family. However, for proponents of Heir-through-Lily theories, there's > nothing against one of the previous descendants having been a Squib, and > choosing to live in the Muggle world since they were without magic. > Several generations later, who's to say they're not a Muggle family? > > > Andrea I have been thinking Petunia a squib for some time now, but hadn't ironed out a lot of the details. It seems to me that her reactions to the wizarding workd are very much the same a Filch's. Thus Filch would be an introduction to the squib concept from JK for a later plot twist. The ones that refer to Lily's parents as "Muggles" (don't have the books with me at the moment, sorry) are Petunia who wouldn't tell the truth about them if they were wizards anyway, and Hagrid, who may know only what he has been told, which he then would repeat to Harry and others. What if they were Wizards and either worked for the Ministry in the Departmemt of Mysteries and lived as Muggles for some reason so that Petunia might "think" they were muggles? Or they were wizards and Petunia just doesn't want anyone to know that, and since she isn't the oddball in the Muggle world that she would be in the WW , then she as a squib, passes herself off as a Muggle and lives (relatively) happily? Now then, what if Aberella Figg is actually a grandparent or Relative to Petunia? (her last name would be different if it was on the mom's side, since Lily and Petunia's maiden names are Evans) She's could have known Mrs Figg her whole life. She would trust her not to spill the beans on Harry, but probably woulen't want general day to day contact with her. But then there is a loop hole about Petunia then worrying she'd tell Harry about being a wizard... hmmm maybe that is part of the letter. Mary (who's going back to lurking now) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 28 20:00:31 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 20:00:31 -0000 Subject: Hermione Talks about Harry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54501 I haven't been following the SHIP thread that closely because I think it is kind of pointless (fun maybe, but not fruitfull). I don't really see any long lasting initmate relationship coming out of the story. I think teen relationships will be used as a humorous backdrop against which the larger story will play out, and it will mostly take the form of conflict and everyone being infatuated with the wrong person; in love with someone else and unable to see the person who is in love with them. After all the stress and struggle, in the end, people will decide it's best to just be friends. Now on to the main subject. Why did Viktor say Hermione talked about Harry a lot? Well, first and most obvious because she probably did. If she did, then why did she talk about Harry so much? I think it is as simple as nervious tension. 1.) Hermione is very worried about Harry. She reasonably suspects that someone entered him into the tournement in an attempt to harm him. I'm sure that's constantly on her mind. 2.) Re: Viktor: this is the first time a man/boy has paid any attention to her as anything other than a friend and a classmate. It's the first time someone was interested in her because she was a girl. Certainly she is more mature than most of her classmates, but she is also very inexperienced and I say, insecure in the area of boy/girl relationships. 3.) Hermione and Viktor don't have much in common, and there aren't a lot of subject to talk about. The only thing they do have in common is the Tri-wizard's Tournement, and the biggest aspect of the tournement that is on Hermione's mind is here concern for Harry. So she is in a very awkward nervious uncomfortable situation where the circumstances would make anyone feel a need to talk to Viktor just out of social courtesy if nothing else. Yet they have nothing in common and nothing to talk about, so under that stress, out comes the thing that they do have in common and the thing that is at the forefront of her mind which is Harry and the Tri-Wizard's Tournement. I think, just out of nervous tension, she groped for a safe non-threatening subject, that allowed her to not get into the details of her own personal life and feelings, and at the same time vent some of her fears about Harry. This seem like a very common stress reaction. When you are under a lot of stress and at a loss for things to say, whatever is in your mind, hidden just below the surface, comes bubbling to the top. I think this tension forced the subject of Harry to come to the top, but at the sametime in an effort to protect Harry and herself, I think she was careful to limit what she said to small talk. Summary, she was tense and nervious and groping for a safe neutral subject to talk about, and that subject was Harry. Just a thought. bboy_mn From grace701 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 28 21:03:10 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 21:03:10 -0000 Subject: ....what I SHOULD have told you.... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54502 "Dumbledore lowered his hands and surveyed Harry through his half- moon glasses. 'It is time,' he said, "for me to tell you what I should have told you five years ago, Harry. Please sit down. I am going to tell you everything.'" After reading this for the umpteenth time it sounds like Dumbledore is regretting not telling Harry something and I'm that impression from where he says "I should have told you". As though, something has just happened that could have been prevented. Is it just me that has read it this way? I'm not saying that this is the right way to interpret it because it could just simply be Dumbledore informing him about what happened the night his parents died, something about Lily (whom we know nothing about), or anything basically. And "It is time" kinda throws off my idea, but how about realizing he made a mistake and there was a consequence to that mistake that could have been prevented had he told Harry what he should have told him 5 years ago. Greicy From devika at sas.upenn.edu Fri Mar 28 21:27:06 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 21:27:06 -0000 Subject: ....what I SHOULD have told you.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54503 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: > "Dumbledore lowered his hands and surveyed Harry through his half- > moon glasses. 'It is time,' he said, "for me to tell you what I > should have told you five years ago, Harry. Please sit down. I am > going to tell you everything.'" > > > After reading this for the umpteenth time it sounds like Dumbledore > is regretting not telling Harry something and I'm that impression > from where he says "I should have told you". As though, something > has just happened that could have been prevented. Is it just me > that has read it this way? > I'm not saying that this is the right way to interpret it because it > could just simply be Dumbledore informing him about what happened > the night his parents died, something about Lily (whom we know > nothing about), or anything basically. And "It is time" kinda > throws off my idea, but how about realizing he made a mistake and > there was a consequence to that mistake that could have been > prevented had he told Harry what he should have told him 5 years ago. > This is interesting. I think a number of people have said that Dumbledore regrets not telling Harry something in PS/SS (5 years ago?) that would have prevented something bad from happening in OoP. This might be someone's death or something else equally traumatic to Harry. I see no reason to disagree with this idea. It seems pretty plausible. I also found this post interesting because it made me think of something that I hadn't thought of in this context before. There is one thing that Harry wanted to know in PS/SS that Dumbledore refused to tell him at that time. Voldemort had told Harry that he only killed Lily because she had tried to prevent him from killing Harry. In the hospital wing at the end of the book, Harry asked Dumbledore why Voldemort would want to kill him (Harry) in the first place. Dumbledore said something like, "Alas, the first question you ask, I cannot answer...someday, when you are ready, you will know." (Sorry for the inexact quote; PS/SS is the only book I don't have with me) It seems like Dumbledore might be regretting not telling Harry why Voldemort wanted to kill him in the first place fourteen years ago. It would make sense, since this is a question that Harry asked Dumbledore directly and that Dumbledore directly refused to answer-- until Harry was ready. Surely, Harry is ready to know now. Devika From liliana at worldonline.nl Fri Mar 28 21:33:33 2003 From: liliana at worldonline.nl (laylalast) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 21:33:33 -0000 Subject: ....what I SHOULD have told you.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54504 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: >> "Dumbledore lowered his hands and surveyed Harry through his half- >> moon glasses. 'It is time,' he said, "for me to tell you what I >> should have told you five years ago, Harry. Please sit down. I am >> going to tell you everything.'" > > Greicy wrote: > After reading this for the umpteenth time it sounds like Dumbledore > is regretting not telling Harry something and I'm that impression > from where he says "I should have told you". As though, something > has just happened that could have been prevented. > > Now me: I have the impression that Dumbledore refers to the talk he and Harry had after Harry's first encounter with Voldemort. Harry said: 'Sir, there are some other things I'd like to know, if you can tell me....'. Dumbledore promises Harry to tell the truth, but cannot yet answer Harry's first question afterwards: '..But why would he (Voldemort) want to kill me in the first place?' Dumbledore answers that he will tell Harry when he is older, when he is ready. (UKPB PS/SS ch 17 pg 216 ) It seems to me that Dumbledore now regrets that he did not answer Harry's first question five years ago (Please let me be right, I'm dying to know!) and does not refer to something that has just happened. Layla From aesob at yahoo.com Fri Mar 28 21:53:49 2003 From: aesob at yahoo.com (Alex) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 21:53:49 -0000 Subject: ....what I SHOULD have told you.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54505 JKR: > "Dumbledore lowered his hands and surveyed Harry through his half- > moon glasses. 'It is time,' he said, "for me to tell you what I > should have told you five years ago, Harry. Please sit down. I am > going to tell you everything.'" Greicy: > After reading this for the umpteenth time it sounds like Dumbledore > is regretting not telling Harry something and I'm that impression > from where he says "I should have told you". As though, something > has just happened that could have been prevented. Is it just me > that has read it this way? You're not the only one, but I think we may be reading too much into that word "should." Could Harry learn something about his past that might prevent some catastrophe? Perhaps, but the conversation could just as easily be prompted by a personal crisis, or it might just be adolescent curiosity. Harry's of an age now where he should start thinking for himself and driving the action, rather than having the action drive him (but we'll see if that happens). Harry could be talking to Dumbledore about anything. "Why is Voldemort always out to get me?" or just, "Dumbledore, I think I'm old enough and I want you to tell me about my parents." Cue that quote from above and see it fits. Granted, the only time Harry seems to have one-on-one conversations with Dumbledore are times of crisis, so it very well could be after some disastrous event, but what information could be passed along that could prevent it? I'm not completely dismissing the idea, just wondering...anyone have any ideas? ~~aesob From briony_coote at hotmail.com Fri Mar 28 22:32:35 2003 From: briony_coote at hotmail.com (Briony Coote) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 10:32:35 +1200 Subject: how long Karkaroff spent in Azkaban Message-ID: <001401c2f579$ee3b3220$48a7a7cb@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 54506 Devika said that "we don't know if Karkaroff was in Azkaban for a year." I say he was, based on these quotes from GoF: In the Pensieve scene Crouch informs Karkaroff: "[Rosier] was caught shortly after you were too." Earlier in the book Sirius tells HRH that Rosier was killed by Aurors "the year before Voldemort fell." Briony [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Fri Mar 28 23:49:26 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 18:49:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: TBAY/SHIP: Crouch - Winky as Wife and Mother (9 of 9) Message-ID: <20030328234926.54139.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54507 "This *has* been an interesting conversation," says Eileen, pulling her cloak about her. "But it's getting on, the storm's approaching, and I just have to talk to Pip about that Barty Jr./Draco parallel. Good night, Elkins." "Not so fast," says Elkins. "I seem to remember you promising to answer all nine parts of the Crouch novenna." "Did I?" says Eileen nervously. "Yes, you did. In your first response." "HPFGU posts can be deceiving," says Eileen evasively. "Honestly, Elkins. You really don't want to propose this. Then, I don't have to answer, and we'll forget it ever happened." "Sweep it under the carpet, Eileen?" "I am sweeping nothing under the carpet," says Eileen. "What you are about to propose is *so* ridiculous, *so* strained, *so* perverse that it doesn't even merit consideration." "And that is why you were so quick to suggest it a while back to the list?" "I only suggested it to deny I'd ever had such an idea." "Uh-huh," says Elkins. "You're not serious!" says Eileen frantically. "This is just some sort of crazy joke on the list!" "I am serious," says Elkins. "Crouch/Winky was my first reading of the text." "Mine too," mumbles Eileen, looking at the ground. She bites her lip for a second, then raises her head. "But look here, it's the wrong reading!" "Why?" "Well, lots of reasons. For one thing, you and I are the only people who seem to have ever seen it in the text! Cindy said it was unimaginably revolting!" "And compelling," said Elkins. "Quite a few people found it *very* compelling. But, you of all people should know that theory discussion is not about popularity. It's the canons that count, and I have several canons here." "No, you don't," says Eileen. "I refuse to believe it." "Trapped in your own version of reality?" "I can't believe you're doing this." "Well, why on earth not?" Elkins glances up at the CRAB CUSTARD banner. "He is Dead Sexy, isn't he?" "Well, yes. But--" "He was hardly geriatric. He was prematurely aged. Still quite vital. And he does seem to have been a man of rather...well, strong passions." Elkins smiles. "As I think you've noticed, Eileen, although I *do* find it interesting that you've never actually once cited that aspect of his character as a part of your CRAB CUSTARD defense." "I, er, well..." Eileen shifts from foot to foot. "Mmm-hmmm." Elkins smirks. "Those fits of apoplectic rage, those suddenly bulging eyes. Sudden and abrupt *tumescence,* yes? It is suggestive of a rather...passionate nature, that. Rather like the way that the Snapefans can sometimes get about those throbbing veins that poor dear Severus develops whenever he's...oh. Oh my! My, I really *am* embarrassing you here, aren't I?" Elkins steps back a few paces and regards Eileen with frank interest. "Now that is a truly extraordinary color," she says. "How on earth do you *manage* that?" Eileen's hands fly up to her crimson cheeks. Without much effect, since her ears are just as flushed. "I.. I.." she is breathing rather heavily. "I don't know what you're talking about." She buries her face completely in her trembling hands. "I'll give you a second to recover. A break..." "No!" shrieks Eileen. "Not that quote. Not now!" "So, did you notice?" "I'm not going to say that... Of course one does... Yes, I did." Elkins nods. "We'll go on then." "Yes," says Eileen. "We'll go on. You cite as evidence for your case the fact that Winky was Crouch's only confidante. And I disagree. I have a killer canon to support my position, as you know. I dealt with that in Part Seven." "Not too bad," admits Elkins. "But I can shoot it down." "Do so then," says Eileen, gaining courage. 'But until then, you know what I think about your "Crouch talked to Winky about his job and therefore he must be sleeping with her!' theory!" "Yes, I know," says Elkins with a small smile. "But remember, for around ten years, he'd had Winky as his only confidante. She was the only person who knew his secret." "Just like Dobby knew Lucius Malfoy's secrets? Are you suggesting something between Dobby and Malfoy?" Elkins looks intrigued. "As Winky makes clear," says Eileen steadfastly. "Keeping their master's secrets is what house-elves do. Crouch isn't out of the ordinary here. This is perfectly common practice in the wizarding world. These people have been taught since early childhood that you confide in the house-elves, even if you're planning to wipe out a few Hogwarts students. The house-elves won't let you down." She pauses. "You've got to wonder what that does for family relations," says Eileen to herself. "People need other people to confide in. Who'd confide in their spouse when they could confide in the completely trustworthy house-elf? Yeah, I were Mrs. Crouch, I'd have hated Winky. Ship or no ship, she would have been a third wheel in that marriage, all right. But maybe Mrs. Crouch was used to that sort of thing. Anyway, unless you want to found the Lucius/Dobby ship right here and now, I object to the use of that as evidence." "But that's not the only thing going for the Crouch/Winky ship," says Elkins in an exasperatingly rational tone. "You said it yourself: the entire Crouch Sr./Mrs. Crouch dynamic is recreated between Crouch Sr. and Winky." "Minus that!" "I don't think so. She acts like she's in love with him," says Elkins quietly. "Even Ron notices that, and Ron is a fourteen-year-old boy. He says that she seems to love him. He says it without a trace of sniggering or contempt or irony or hyperbole. He says it in dead earnest." "Ron didn't mean it that way!" says Eileen. "You're always complaining about couplethinking, Elkins, and now look what you're doing: couplethinking! You can't leave it as storge. You have to eroticize it." Elkins stares at her. "Of course, that's the point where I clued into the ship," admits Eileen. "'She seems to love him.' I spent the rest of the novel, and the next year or so repressing the idea. I thought it was a poor choice of wording on Rowling's part." "She's in love with him." "Yes," says Eileen. "She bloody well is." There is a long pause. "You're starting to identify with Winky, are you?" asks Elkins. "Well, it's inevitable," says Eileen. "I've served my timeas every other member of this messed-up family. I might as well take my turn as Winky. After all, you know what character I'm like in HP." "Yes, Percy does have a kind of a crush on Crouch." "But, Elkins, this is horribly unfair," says Eileen. "You're taking advantage of me because *I* have a crush on Crouch. So I can rather vividly imagine myself in Winky's position." Elkins shrugs her shoulders. "It might be horribly unfair, but you brought it on yourself, you know." "That's no comfort at all! I shouldn't have to suffer the consequences of what I've done! I didn't know! You can't do this to me!" "Tell me, Eileen, is there any particular reason why we should assume that a relationship which in all other respects seems to replicate a sexual relationship should *not* have had a sexual component? I mean, is there any reason that we should assume that Winky was *not* sharing his bed?" "Look, as any H/Hr shipper could tell you, all you've done is establish that Winky had it bad for Crouch. I admit that. But you need to establish reciprocal attraction." "And you're an R/Hr shipper," says Elkins mildly. "But what did you say on this subject." Eileen sighs. "I would be hard pressed to believe that there was no emotional bond between Winky and him," she admits. "But I was not talking about eros." "Why not?" ""Well..." Eileen squirms. "Well, it's just sort of...distasteful. Isn't it?" "Is it? Why?" "Well, for starters, she's not human. And also she's...well, tiny." "This is a novel that gave us not one, but *two* half-giant characters," Elkins reminds her. "And from Fudge's comment about them not all turning out like Hagrid, it would seem that it's not all that an uncommon pairing in the wizarding world, either. I don't get the impression that wizards are too particular about species. Or about *size,* for that matter." "Well, I found that rather distasteful too," says Eileen quickly. "In fact, I was very surprised that there wasn't a move to ban GoF from the shelves for that revelation. No, the ordinary public worries about how many times the characters say "damn," how disturbing Cedric's death is, and whether kids will take to devil-worship after reading the books. They don't care at all that their children are being exposed to a cross-species relationship of dubious consensuality." "Crouch/Winky?" "No, Hagrid's parents. Come, Elkins, you must tell me. What did you think of my reading of that particular aspect of the book? No-one has ever responded to me there. But you must be interested. After all, it neatly dovetails with the book's themes." "Eileen, I'm warning you. Only a few crazy people care about the Crouch family. If you keep on pulling the Hagrid family name through the dirt, you can expect to be murdered." "All right. I'll let it go for the moment. Only, I'll note once again that Hagrid's backstory exactly matches the old English stories about men who catch a mermaid or some other otherwordly creature, keep them by magic, and after bearing them a son, the woman takes off when she finds the object which is keeping her there. If you want sexual relationships of dubious consensuality, I don't think you have to look further than everyone's favourite half-giant." "Well, then, if you take *that* as authorial intentk" says Elkins with a smile. "I don't think I need to convince you that Crouch/Winky could have authorial intent behind it." "Could have," says Eileen. "But I'm not buying into it. I just don't know if I think that it would occur to people in the culture to view the elves as objects of lust. They're...well, they're really rather disgusting and freakish, aren't they?" "Harry thinks that they are, but he's not used to them. I don't know if I think that the elves would seem at all freakish or disgusting to someone who was actually a member of one of those fine old pure-blooded families." Eileen stares at the ground. "What do you think?" "Oh fine. It's not like I can really find out whether it's normal to lust after the house-elves," says Eileen. "I sort of missed my chance to grow up in one of those fine old pure-blooded families. Why don't you ask Avery?" "Look, let's just come clean here, shall we? We both *know* why Crouch/Winky is so disturbing, don't we? The main reason that Crouch/Winky is a disturbing concept is because she is his *slave.* And that's also what makes it so very convincing. Because...well, there's an awful lot of real life precedent, isn't there?" Elkins pauses. "Eileen, wipe that goofy grin off your face. This isn't funny." "But it is," says Eileen. "I mean, not really, but if you're as big a fan of Horace as I am, it's exceedingly funny. About two sentences into your first post, and I was thinking Ode II.4. It's Ode II.4!" "Horace's Ode II.4," says Elkins, "upsets the sensibilities of a modern audience." "Oh, I know. Lord, what beasts those Romans were! But such a masterpiece. Kit Smart's imitation/translation is especially good, and it's been ringing through my head the entire time you were haranguing me." "Well, then, let's hear it." "All right," says Eileen. "Just understand that this is not my fault. It's the fault of Quintus Horatius Flaccus (65-8 BC) and Christopher Smart (1722-1771)." She puts her hands behind her back. "Ahem... Ode II.4 An Imitation Colin, oh! cease thy friend to blame, Who entertains a servile flame. Chide not - believe me, 'tis no more Than great Achilles did before, Who nobler, prouder far than he is, Ador'd his chambermaid Briseis. The thund'ring Ajax Venus lays In love's inextricable maze. His slave Tecmessa makes him yield Now mistress of the seven fold shield. Atrides with his captive play'd, Who always shar'd the bed she made. 'Twas at the ten years siege, when all The Trojans fell at Hector's fall, When Helen rul'd the day and night, And made them love, and made them fight: Each hero kiss'd his maid, and why, Tho' I'm no hero, may not I? Who knows? Perhaps Polly may be A piece of ruin'd royalty. She has (I cannot doubt it) beeen The daughter of a mighty queen; But fate's irremedeable doom Has chang'd her sceptre for a broom. Ah! cease to think it - how can she, So generous, charming, fond, and free, So lib'ral of her little store, So heedless of amassing more, Have one drop of plebeian blood In all the circulating flood? But you, by carping at my fire, Do but betray your own desire - Howe'er proceed - made tame by years, You'll raise in me no jealous fears. You've not one spark of love alive, For, thanks to heav'n, you're forty-five." "Well... thankyou." "I don't think," says Eileen putting back her copy of "Horace in English" under Ovid's Erotic Poems, "that the general population has any idea how racey things can get in the Classics Department." "Or in Harry Potter," says Elkins. "But anyway, the heroine of Horace's poem loved Phoceus (or Colin.)" "Yes. She does. I don't know if that signifies. People play the hands they're dealt, and all things considered, it's far better to love than to hate. Crouch/Winky sort of replicates the troubling ambiguity of the entire SPEW plotline, doesn't it? She clearly really loved him. But did she have a choice? To what extent to the elves *really* like to serve?" "That's true," sighs Eileen. "It certainly fits thematically. But I'm not sure that the other reading doesn't fit either. Winky as putting all her misguided loyalty and love at Crouch's feet, and he ignoring it. Like Percy with Crouch. Or Barty Jr. with Voldemort for that matter...." "You don't want to talk me out of this ship, you know, Eileen. You really don't." "Why on earth not?" asks Eileen. "Because it makes me like Crouch better." "Elkins! Why? It makes his treatment of Winky all the more abysmal!" "Does it? Oh, I don't know. Maybe it does. But it also makes it somehow more forgivable. People get weird when it comes to their lovers. Crouch/Winky actually humanizes Crouch a great deal for me. It makes him seem less like a thematic icon, and more like a real person. It makes me find him a lot more sympathetic." "Well, you know that. I know that. But will the list know that? No, I'll tell you what the list will do, Elkins. They will roll their eyes, and we shall never, ever, ever discuss Crouch again with the list, for fear of going here again." "Not likely to happen while you're still around," says Elkins. "Come, sign on to Crouch/Winky." "No." "Oh why not?" Eileen draws a huge sigh. "Do you know what my favourite ship in the whole entire Potterverse is?" "R/Hr?" Eileen shakes her head. "Ginny/Neville?" "No." "Hi! May I interrupt?" comes a voice from behind them. "My name's Petra, and I can't help but hear that you're talking about the Crouches." "So we are," says Elkins. "I have a theory of my own about the Crouches. You know that Pensieve scene?" "Do I ever," mumbles Eileen. "What if Barty Sr. is NOT, as most people would read this scene, being histrionic? What if Barty Sr. is telling the truth and nothing but?" Elkins and Eileen stare at each other. "Oh, someone finally said it!" says Eileen. "Frankly, I've been waiting for someone to suggest that for months. Petra, I wouldn't be surprised if you had some back-up in the wizarding world. It's just not fair to be blond haired and freckled in this situation. It invites so much gossip." "What about the bulging eyes?" asks Elkins. "Yeah, we have the bulging eyes," says Eileen. "Which, I think, has kept this line of thinking at bay. I'm sorry, Petra. I think the bulging eyes belie that theory. And anyway, I'm not at all clear how Barty Jr. not being Crouch's biological son would do for the story. Adding in the mysterious real father of Barty Crouch Jr. doesn't seem to do anything for the plot. I think it reads better as it is. That's just my personal opinion, of course." "Very well," says Petra. "I'll have to convince you some other time." "I can't believe you missed that chance to cast aspersions on Barty Jr.'s saintly mother," says Elkins. "But, Elkins, I SHIP the Crouches! Damnit! It's my favourite ship in the Potterverse! I've been shipping it passionately ever since I first read "Padfoot Returns," and Sirius described Crouch as half-carrying his wife from Azkaban. "Veritaserum" only increased my devotion to the pairing. And you know who my fellow shipper is?" "He loved her as he never loved me," sighs Elkins. "Exactly," says Eileen. "Keep Crouch/Winky to yourself. I'm shipping along with Barty Jr." "Oh, are you? I've got Barty Jr. SUBTEXT right here!" says Elkins. "It's... wait a second, I thought you disliked Mrs. Crouch." "Well, yeah," says Eileen, looking embarassed. "But not when I'm shipping her with Crouch Sr. I enjoy shipping her. I just don't like her as a mother." "Well, Barty Jr. did. He seems to have idolized his mother, or at the very least to have romanticized her a great deal after her death. But how did he feel about Winky? Are there any indications that he felt even the slightest bit of affection for her?" "No, they aren't," says Eileen snappishly. "I've been wanting to bring that up for a while, Elkins. The ungrateful little brat." "Wait a second," says Elkins. "Why *should* he have felt gratitude to Winky? She had nothing to do with saving his life, and no matter how nice she may have tried to be to him, she was still his jailer." "Well, it was his own fault in the first place! If he had never tortured the Longbottoms..." "Oh, that is *low*, Eileen. Can't we have a nice Crouch discussion without mentioning... torture? No? Should I start talking about the authorization of the Unforgivable Curses?" "It'd be a long sight funner than this slander." "Slander? Eileen, you wound me. I am merely trying to look at the family dynamics here. Now, we all seem to agree that whatever else he might have been, Crouch the Elder was a bit of a tyrant when it came to his familial relations. You would think that he must have seemed like rather an ogre to his son, wouldn't you? He sent him off to Azkaban. He bellowed abuse at him while he was pleading for mercy. He held his life in his very hands. He controlled him. He dominated him. He bent him to his will. 'Total control.' And really, Crouch Sr. was a quite impressive man in his day, wasn't he? Forceful. Charismatic. Magnetic. Domineering. He's still rather a striking personality even by the time of canon, when he's become a lame duck. CRAB CUSTARD, you know." Eileen stares out to see. "You know, Elkins," she says. "I promise you on my word of honour that I'll never marry anyone like Bartemius Crouch Sr., no matter how sexy they are." "I think I've heard that before." "Yeah, it was almost the first thing I wrote to you when you first posted the novenna. And it's true, too. I broke up with the Barty Crouch in my life... Good thing too. We were entirely incompatible. So we went our separate ways, and I expect he'll end up in the diplomatic corps as planned. But, you see, Elkins. I can't ship against my own personal inclinations, even if I don't follow them in real life." "As you wish. But, tell me, what does Barty Jr. actually give as his reasoning for hating his father so much? What does he tell Harry? That his father was a bloody tyrant? That his father was a monster? That his father was Ever So Evil?" "Oh yes, that would have been a successful statement," mutters Eileen. "He couldn't have attacked his father on any of those grounds, could he have now? It'd bring the conversation unpleasantly around to Replacement Dad! Lord Voldemort. So, Barty casts around for another reason to blame his poor father and calls him..." "Disappointing," says Elkins. "Now, why do you think that he would have chosen that particular word?" "Well..." Eileen thinks about it. "The *author* probably chose that particular word," she says. "Because it hearkens back to Voldemort in the graveyard." "It does do that. Voldemort is 'disappointed' in his Death Eaters. Because they've been *unfaithful,* isn't it? What is the significance of the fact that Crouch Jr. uses that very same word to describe his father?" "That Crouch Sr. had abandoned him in the Pensieve scene, been unfaithful? At least, in Barty Jr.'s twisted sense of things. We also discussed the fact that Barty seems to have thought his father was unfaithful to his mother, by leaving her to be buried in Azkaban. Or even to die there. Barty Jr. obviously idolizes his mother for saving him, but does he really think his father ought to have allowed her to? I can't help but think that some part of his conflicted mind resents his father for letting his mother die for him. To him, it would duplicate, not wipe away, the rejection of the Pensieve scene. That's unfaithfulness. Just as Riddle Sr. is unfaithful in abandoning his wife and son." "I have to say that when I look at a family dynamic in which a son adores his rather sickly mother, absolutely detests his father, seems to loathe his father's female servant in spite of the fact that she has been kind to him, *and* refers to his father as 'disappointing...' Well, it just gets difficult for me to avoid the suspicion that there are more than political differences underlying the conflict there." "No, there's a good helping of martyred mother, covered with an invisibility cloak there, too," says Eileen snidely. "Elkins, tell me. Do you really think Barty Jr. would have much liked his mother, if she were still living?" "He does seem to idolize her." "Because she's dead. If she had lived, he would have had to face up to her being one of his jailers. Just another two-faced liar. Just another hypocrite." "So, if you want to predicate a ship of Barty Jr's fantasy world, where his mother who conveniently isn't around anymore is the heroine and the two people who actually are keeping him under lock and key are the villains, you can. But under the circumstances, I see nothing peculiar at all about Barty Jr's hatred for Winky. Or his father. Even though I think... Gah. We won't even go there. You know what I think Barty Jr. should have done when he was taken out of Azkaban. Started being grateful. Make amends. Be redeemed. But no, that didn't suit Barty Jr... I said I wouldn't go there, didn't I? But tell me, Elkins. Isn't Barty Jr. rather assertive about his parents' marriage in the Veritaserum scene? This Crouch/Winky scenario expects me to believe that he would be calling his father "disappointing" one minute, meaning maritally unfaithful, and then saying, "He loved her as he never loved me." That's rather strong, isn't it?" Eileen pauses. "I said Barty Jr. mightn't have thought much of his mother if she had lived. There's already a tinge of envy there isn't there? He was jealous of his mother. If she had lived, I think he might have ended up hating her more than anyone else. Martyred mothers are only fun when they're actually dead. But even when they do die, they reincarnate themselves as Winky. Or Gran Longbottom. Or Aunt Petunia.` `Oh,` says Elkins. `You want to talk troubling gender implications...` `Yeah,` says Eileen. `I think I will. But first I have to go talk to Pip. She might have some asbestos suits to lend us. Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Sat Mar 29 00:41:45 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 19:41:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: FILK: The Students Who Don't Do Anything Message-ID: <20030329004145.58182.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54508 The Students Who Don't Do Anything ( to the tune of Veggietales' The Pirates Who Don't Do Anything) We are the Students Who Don't Do Anything We just study and mill around And if you ask us to do anything We'll just tell you, we don't do anything Natalie Macdonald: Well, I haven't seen the Burrow and I haven't been to Gringotts. Graham Pritchard: And I never got to take part in that Quidditch World Cup brawl. Stephen Cornfoot: And you won't find me in canon, and I'm mighty rare in fanon. All: And we never got invited to the Ball. (Refrain) Nott: Well, I haven't got a gender and my House is up for tender. Blaise Zabini: And I'm never mean to Harry 'cause I never talk at all Morag MacDougall: And I've never played at Quidditch and I've never got detention, All: And we never got invited to the Ball. {Refrain} Sally-Anne Perks: Well, I've never laughed at Quirrel, and I've never crushed on Lockhart Tracey Davis: And I've never been applauded or saluted in the Hall. Susan Bones: And I haven't had a close-up. I mean, outside of movies. All: And we never got invited to the Ball. {Refrain} Queenie Greengrass: And I've never flubbed at Potions and I didn't date a Weasley. Kevin Whitby: And I don't crusade for House-Elves, and I don't defend the small. Orla Quirke: And I've never been a beater and I haven't filled in Skeeter. All: And we never got invited to the Ball. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From liliana at worldonline.nl Fri Mar 28 22:58:46 2003 From: liliana at worldonline.nl (laylalast) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 22:58:46 -0000 Subject: The Longbottems (was OoP Book Covers also The certian room) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54509 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Edward Post" wrote: > Tonya wrote and asked: > << snip>> > > > >Why would Malfoy donate to St. Mungo's? > > > >What could the Longbottems know that Voldemort wants to keep hidden?? > > > >Tonya > > > > To which Mr. Ed replies (in complete speculation): > > I've wondered if Secret Keepers can unwillingly be put into their position. > That, to me, would explain why the Longbottoms are alive, especially given, > sad to say, how easy and 'clean' it is to kill in the Wizarding World. > > If a secret can be stored in a living soul -- and if that soul is deemed > "crazy" or is actually mentally impaired so much to be non- communicative, > what better soul (from the dark perspective) to burden with a nasty yet > important secret can there be? Layla's thougths: I personally agree that there is more to Malfoy's donation to St. Mungp's than meets the eye. I have wondered for some time whether Snapes sudden movement in the infirmary, when he hears Harry naming Lucius Malfoy as DE, is connected with Malfoy's donation to St. Mungo's. After all, he belongs to Dumbledore's trusted people and therefore could very well know what secret is harbored at St. Mungo's (if any of course). At the moment he hears Lucius' name, he realises in an instant that this is a dangerous situation? Anybody else? Layla From drdara at yahoo.com Fri Mar 28 23:08:35 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 15:08:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Longbottems (was OoP Book Covers also The certian room) In-Reply-To: <43716000B5B3D6119934006097E4668C20E5EC@djmail.deckerjones.com> Message-ID: <20030328230835.16709.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54510 The only problem with that reasoning is that even if the Longbottoms knew anything, how would anyone believe them as they are insane. If the Malfoys were paying to keep everything under wraps they would end up paying someone to kill them. Besides Lord Voldemort was almost dead before the Longbottoms went insane so what could they know. Danielle __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Sat Mar 29 01:38:48 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 01:38:48 -0000 Subject: The Longbottems (was OoP Book Covers also The certian room) In-Reply-To: <20030328230835.16709.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54511 danielle dassero wrote: what could they know =================================================================== Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; What could they know? Exactly who tortured them. Can anyone say Lucius Malfoy was not one of them? After all, on (page 603, GoF, US) it says "Unfortunately, the Longbottoms' evidence was - given their condition - none too reliable." So, Lucius might have been involved in the torturing of the Longbottoms', and now, to cover his own butt, he is making sure they never get out. Fred From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Sat Mar 29 02:33:15 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 02:33:15 -0000 Subject: The Old Crowd (Just how important *is* this guy?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54512 Corinth wrote: > I rather > like the idea of the Old Crowd being a mix of the best and brightest > of those who wanted to help the fight against Voldemort but whom the > MoM would not take seriously (young students, eccentric but brilliant > scientists, young reformed ex-Death Eaters, etc.). No doubt some were (are?) like that, but I think if this group represents Dumbledore's inclusive vision, it will have very ordinary witches and wizards in it too. People like Ernie Prang (no, that's not meant to be a prediction). Even squibs. Of course, the MOM wouldn't take them seriously, either. David From kkearney at students.miami.edu Sat Mar 29 04:19:20 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 04:19:20 -0000 Subject: The Old Crowd (Just how important *is* this guy?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54513 I wrote: > > I rather like the idea of the Old Crowd being a mix of the best > > and > > brightest of those who wanted to help the fight against Voldemort > > but whom the MoM would not take seriously (young students, > > eccentric but > > brilliant scientists, young reformed ex-Death Eaters, etc.). And David replied: > No doubt some were (are?) like that, but I think if this group > represents Dumbledore's inclusive vision, it will have very > ordinary > witches and wizards in it too. People like Ernie Prang (no, that's > not meant to be a prediction). Even squibs... Why though? Not to sound condescending towards average and below average witches and wizards, but why would Dumbledore include them in his group? Yes, Dumbledore is extremely accepting of all people. I certainly don't mean to imply that he would think less of the non-overacheivers. However, this wasn't some club or honor society he organized (IMHO, at any rate, though I might be stepping into dangerous un-canon-supported territory here). It was a very risky endeavor intended to overthrow a murderous evil overlord. It would be very counteractive of Dumbledore to enlist the help of someone who didn't increase the group's chances of success. That person would be a potential liability to the rest of the group no matter how good his or her intentions. Also, it would be irresponsible of Dumbledore to put a not-as-capable witch or wizard in Lord Voldemort's path. Also, it's very possible that Dumbledore was acting on his own during this time, much as he plans to do in the upcoming fight. In that case, he would only want those who he could trust completely, and who he was certain would not leak info to either the MoM or Voldemort. Overall, I think this is one of those situations where even a fair-minded person like Dumbledore would be a bit exclusive. Not only for the safety and success of his team, but to prevent the unnecessary injury and possible death of people he knew could not help. -Corinth, who upon proofreading this message thinks her conlanging is starting to effect her use of the English language (non-overacheivers?, un-canon-supported?, not-as-capable?) :) From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Sat Mar 29 04:55:52 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 20:55:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Secret Keeping (was) The Longbott[o]ms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030329045552.14334.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54514 Tonya: > >Hi all, > >Last night I was reading GOP for about > >the 10th time and I wonder if there > >could be something that the Longbottem's > >know. Before the Quiddich World > >Cup when the Malfoys came into the top > >box the Fudge said "Mr. Malfoy have > >just given a huge donation to St. Mungo's". > > > >Why would Malfoy donate to St. Mungo's? > > > >What could the Longbottems know that > >Voldemort wants to keep hidden?? > > > >Tonya To which Mr. Ed replied (in complete speculation): > I've wondered if Secret Keepers can > unwillingly be put into their position. > That, to me, would explain why the > Longbottoms are alive, especially given, > sad to say, how easy and 'clean' it is > to kill in the Wizarding World. > > If a secret can be stored in a living > soul -- and if that soul is deemed > "crazy" or is actually mentally impaired > so much to be non-communicative, > what better soul (from the dark > perspective) to burden with a nasty yet > important secret can there be? Within the construct of the narrative, your speculation is warranted. But I have to say, if Secret Keepers can be compelled to be Secret Keepers against their will, or even without their knowledge, for me the narrative power of the whole idea of Secret Keepers would be diminished. Thematically, the Secret Keepers symbolize many aspects of trust, one of which is making the commitment to the secret holder(s). For me, that commitment would mean less if it's one that the Secret Keeper did not consciously make him/herself. After all, Pettigrew's betrayal would be toothless if he didn't consciously choose to snitch on his best friend. As Professor Flitwick puts it ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ "An immensely complex spell," he said squeakily, "involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it. As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window!" ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ PoA I always pegged "chooses to divulge" and "refused to speak" as the operative phrases here; free will seems to be key and the fact that the Secret Keeper COULD divulge and COULD speak (COULD give into temptation) but chooses to exercise will power in refusing to do so is what, IMO, gives the spell its immense power. Having said that, the Longbottoms could very well be twisted versions of the Secret Keepers but I would be very disappointed if the way the spell works remains the same; we should see that there are ramifications to the manipulation of trust. > Mr. Ed (who wonders why Tonya consults > so frequently with the US's Republican > Party to answer her excellent questions > about the British Wizarding World!) Well now, couldn't GOP stand for Good Ol' Potterica? Petra a n :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From annemehr at yahoo.com Sat Mar 29 05:03:05 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 05:03:05 -0000 Subject: Graveyard scene In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54515 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Anne" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" > wrote: > > A lost finger simply isn't enough to prove that someone's dead. As > to > > how he lost it - he has cut his *hand* off! Finger is small thing > > compared to that. Perhaps, on the day he decided to betray his > > friends, he cut that finger off (possibly planted it back by magic, > > but so he could leave it behind at will) - as one part of him that > > was loyal? > > Anne U: > I thought Pettigrew cut his hand off at the graveyard in GOF -- > wasn't "hand of the servant" part of the "potion" for the incantation > that brought Voldemort's body back? Annemehr: I think finwitch's point was that, if he could cut his whole *hand* off in the graveyard, why would it be so hard to believe he could cut just one finger off when faking his own death? However, my original musings on this subject were not about whether or not he could do it, but about the timing of blowing up the street, leaving robes and finger, transforming, and disappearing down the sewer so that, to the witnesses, it looked like he died in the blast (i.e. no one saw him arranging the evidence). Anne U: > > I am pretty sure (don't have my POA here, it's at home) that Sirius > explained in the Shrieking Shack that Pettigrew cut off his own > finger out in the street when he killed the dozen Muggles, then > transfigured into a rat so he could escape -- leaving his finger and > his wand behind as proof of his "death". > > Anne U > ("I let you sleep in my BED all those years!" - disgusted Ron, POA) Annemehr: Actually, Fudge said (in the Three Broomsticks) that all that was left was "a heap of bloodstained robes and a few -- a few fragments --" Then in the shrieking shack, Lupin said "Didn't you ever hear, Ron? The biggest part of Peter they found was his finger." No mention of a wand anywhere. The original discussion was why Peter used Voldemort's wand in the graveyard to kill Cedric -- why didn't he have one of his own? And I was thinking that the reason could *not* be because he left it behind since it was not mentioned in the "all that was left" list. I also was thinking that if he still had it, he *could* have taken it with him in the pocket of his robes that would transform with him (the bloody ones being an extra set). It seems that he did not do this, either, but why not? My best guess was that the street blasting spell was powerful enough to shatter the wand, so there was nothing left. And now, let's go one step further. Weren't there at least two people's wands he could have stolen on his way to Voldemort? Peter used Lupin's wand to attack Ron and Crookshanks (which seems to imply that he indeed was otherwise wandless), so why didn't he just take it with him when he transformed that time? Maybe he just lost his head, I don't know. Or maybe it had to be in his *pocket* when he transformed, because if it was in his hand then when that hand turned into a rat's paw he wouldn't be able to hold it anymore. Maybe he didn't have *time* to stuff it into his pocket first, escape being a much more immediate priority. Okay, so how about Bertha Jorkins' wand? Voldemort said that Peter was able to overpower her when they met in Albania, but doesn't give any details. Presumably, Peter did have Voldemort's wand at this point and may have used it in subduing her. He was successful, and brought both Voldemort's wand and Bertha Jorkins to Voldemort. At this point, you'd think he'd want to have Bertha's wand, so where is it? The only thing I can guess is that it got lost or broken in Peter's struggle with Bertha. I picture them out in a forest where a wand or its pieces would be easily lost if dropped in the nighttime. Perhaps he disarmed her with Expelliarmus and it flew off somewhere and could not be found. I do not think that Voldemort would have wanted to keep it from him as that involved Peter needing to use Voldemort's own wand to do things, and I don't think Voldemort would have allowed that if it weren't absolutely neccessary. So, it seems fairly reasonable that Peter would be without a wand up to the end of GoF, and Harry (and therefore we) would be able to observe this without knowing the details as to why. Annemehr From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Sat Mar 29 06:04:04 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 00:04:04 -0600 Subject: The Old Crowd (Just how important *is* this guy?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54516 Corinth wrote: "I rather like the idea of the Old Crowd being a mix of the best and brightest of those who wanted to help the fight against Voldemort but whom the MoM would not take seriously (young students, eccentric but brilliant scientists, young reformed ex-Death Eaters, etc.)." David added: "No doubt some were (are?) like that, but I think if this group represents Dumbledore's inclusive vision, it will have very ordinary witches and wizards in it too. People like Ernie Prang (no, that's not meant to be a prediction). Even squibs. Of course, the MOM wouldn't take them seriously, either. I continue: I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but for a while now, I've wanted a Muggle to enter the Wizarding World and make a true difference. I know that this wouldn't have as much of an effect on the readers, since we all know - from personal experience - that Muggles CAN do things. I'm thinking of the effect it may have on the Wizarding World: a Muggle, a helpless, insignificant, can't-even-do-magic Muggle, helps Dumbledore win the war. Think of the effect on Malfoy if he's finally defeated by a "stinking Muggle scum." Think about Arthur Weasley - his darling, childlike Muggles show that they AREN'T all foolish and shortsighted. Think of the effect on Fudge, or Harry himself! This, I think, would be one of Dumbledore's greatest strikes in favor of Muggle tolerance: a Muggle is part of the "Old Crowd," as it were, the Order of the Phoenix (if that's what the Order truly refers to). THAT would be world-shaping reform. Hobbit-guy, who wants those fictional people to know that magic does not equal respect. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You haven't been getting into the Gaffer's home brew again, have you?" "No... Well, yes, but that's beside the point." -Frodo and Bilbo Baggins, Fellowship of the Rings Extended Edition DVD From aaoconnor2002 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 29 02:56:38 2003 From: aaoconnor2002 at yahoo.com (aaoconnor2002) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 02:56:38 -0000 Subject: The Longbottems (was OoP Book Covers also The certian room) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54517 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Fred Waldrop" wrote: > > Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; > > What could they know? > Exactly who tortured them. Can anyone say Lucius Malfoy was not one > of them? > After all, on (page 603, GoF, US) it says "Unfortunately, the > Longbottoms' evidence was - given their condition - none too > reliable." > So, Lucius might have been involved in the torturing of the > Longbottoms', and now, to cover his own butt, he is making sure they > never get out. Or it could be that the Longbottoms know who *didn't* torture them, perhaps the fact that the son of a very highly placed Ministry official had nothing to do with it at all. Who is more likely to believe Lucius' claims that he had not been a willing Death Eater, Crouch Sr. or Fudge? Even Dumbledore said he wasn't positive about Barty Jr.'s guilt when Harry asked him about it after seeing the trial in the pensieve. I could see Lucius keeping the Longbottoms incapacitated by way of payoffs to St. Mungo's in order to keep Fudge in power whether Lucius was actually involved in their torture or not. Audrey From keithmascarenhas at hotpop.com Sat Mar 29 06:17:59 2003 From: keithmascarenhas at hotpop.com (Keith Mascarenhas) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 11:47:59 +0530 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Re: Who is the boy?/ Harry's Funeral (+ Enid Blyton comparison) Message-ID: <00c401c2f5ba$f718e040$140110ac@e97z2grx09q8y3k> No: HPFGUIDX 54518 Susanne Said: "And how did Ginny enter into this post? I don't remember mentioning her as opposed to Hermione as Harry's future love interest. I'm not a H/G shipper, even though I haven't ruled her out, and it's certainly possible she might be the one. We haven't had much in depth interaction between her and Harry, yet, but I certainly didn't get the same impression you got from reading the books (meaning what you said about Harry not wanting anything to do with her to the extend of rather eating scorpions)." Many who ship R/H automatically ship H/G so they as a couple were bound to be brought up in the same thread, sooner or later (and you haven't ruled them out either - although I have). :D You may not get it, but I get a strong sense of it - like Harry does not want to have anything to do with her - all one has to do is read in between the lines, check my post with the same header to Lilac. Susanne said: "Sorry, never read the series and never heard that HP was based on those two series ." The series that you refer too is "The Famous Five" series - yeah I read that series when I was a kid! When JKR talked about Harry's hormones kicking him and not leaving Harry stuck in a pre pubescent stage of mental sexual maturity like Julian - JKR talked about Julian from this series of books. Try to get a hold of "The Secret Seven" series - as said earlier by me, the " Both H/H and H/R interactions can be called sibling like - check out The Secret Seven series by Enid Blyton, You'll find patterns for H/H in Peter/Janet who are siblings and you'll find patterns for R/H in Jack/Susie who are siblings"! Hey, you never know, you might just change your mind after reading the series! ;) Susanne said: "... never heard that HP was based on those two series" I never said that HP was based on those two series, I simply said that Hogwarts (the school - maybe I should have clarified it) was based on the series - the only differences being that: 1) Hogwarts is a magical school; both St Clare's and Melory Towers are muggle schools, and 2) Hogwarts is co-educational; St. Clare's and Melory Towers are not. Keith [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From oppen at mycns.net Sat Mar 29 08:27:41 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 02:27:41 -0600 Subject: Lucius Malfoy and St. Mungos. Message-ID: <017f01c2f5cd$119874a0$2f560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 54519 Actually, there are two perfectly logical reasons why Lucius Malfoy might be donating to St. Mungo's. One is that he might very well feel that the wizard community's system of magical health care needs to be kept in tip-top shape, so that if precious, irreplacable _he_ ever gets hurt or sick, he won't have to trust himself to the mercy of *yuck* Muggles. Another is that St. Mungo's might have also treated some of his fellow Death Eaters, or even Malfoy himself. They could well have an attitude that quarrels and wars among wizards do not cross their threshold---in St. Mungo's, all they care about is getting you well. Even Lucius Malfoy is probably capable of gratitude. Of course, if it gives him a source of information and/or control over people, he's not one to look that sort of gift Kneazle in the mouth, now is he? From keithmascarenhas at hotpop.com Sat Mar 29 07:16:17 2003 From: keithmascarenhas at hotpop.com (Keith Mascarenhas) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 12:46:17 +0530 Subject: SHIP Why I Hate H/G Attn: Lilac Message-ID: <000e01c2f5c3$1b1fec60$140110ac@e97z2grx09q8y3k> No: HPFGUIDX 54520 Lilac wrote: "I just think that it's very interesting that JKR made sure to mention Ginny's reaction during that scene. It's obviously foreshadowing, but the questionis...for what? (I hope it'sIsStrongerFromTheExperienceAndChoosesToFightBack!Ginny)" Well, the three of them - Harry, Ginny and Neville - have all had terrifying experiences, thanks to Voldemort. Harry becausge of his legacy, Neville because of his parents and Ginny because of her stupidity! We know what it does to Harry, but Neville and especially Ginny remain wildcards because they're peripheral characters in the series, as of now. I'm not much of a fan of JKR's interviews, simply because she had this habit of telling us virtually nothing in her interviews - was Cedric really a main character in the HP series who was going to die? As you asked, what the foreshadowing is for ? As much as I hate to say it, it could be for weakGinny BUT, we just don't know yet. To my mind, it does not necessarily foreshadow a relationship, and if it does,the ground work for a possible relationship has not properly been laid out (as of right now - COS/POA/GOF). It could also possibly foreshadow a relationship between Neville and Ginny who were not as badly effected with the dementors as Harry was. Putting Harry in the picture may simply signify that Harry may initially, albeit unintentionally, come in between a future Neville and Ginny relationship because of her feelings for "The Boy Who Lived". Lilac said: "That's very interesting, because I don't get that impression at all from Harry.My impression is that he politely endures her blushing and fumbling. He doesn't love it, but he doesn't hate it worse than "eating live scorpions" likeyou suggest...just politely indifferent. Could someone please help me to understand this impression, backed up by canon?" Okay, let me try to clarify this - I did not say that he hates her blushing and fumbling worse than "eating live scorpions". I said that he'd prefer eating live scorpions to having a relationship or dating Ginny. It is not explicitly mentioned in the canon, but certain inferences can be made from the way Harry behaves with her. It is very clear that he doesn't want to date her, and , as said before, would probably rather eat live scorpions than go out with her! This is because, he knows that she's got a crush on "The Boy Who lived". He's seen it since the beginning - UKPB PS C6 PG73 'Hey Mum, guess what? Guess who we just met on the train train?' Harry leant back quickly so they couldn't see him looking 'You know the black-haired boy who was near us in the station? Know who he is?' 'Who?' 'Harry Potter!' Harry heard the little girls voice. 'Oh Mum, Can I go on the train and see him, Mum,oh please...' Prior to this conversation, Molly helps Harry get onto platform 9 3/4, from the muggle platform. At this point, it is obvious that Ginny seen him, but is not crushing about him yet, because he looks like any other boy and because his scar is hidden underneath a mop of hair - so it's not love at first site, for Ginny, is it ? Only when she KNOWS that he is the famous Harry Potter, does she feel the need to see him on the train ? With me so far ? We know how Harry himself views his celebrity status with a bit of distaste - he's certainly not comfortable with his celebrity status. In COS, We get to see how he treats fellow celebrity Gilderoy Lockhart because Lockhart goes out of his way to seek fame. We know how he treats fanboy Colin Creevey - okay, I'll grant you that Creevey is a nuisance! Plus we all know what he thinks of 'journalist' Rita Skeeter by the end of GOF. Now let's get back to Ginny's crush - what's her crush all about - it's all about meeting/knowing the famous "Boy Who Lived". Do you think Harry's comfortable with this ? Do you think Harry would want to go out or have a relationship with someone who has a crush on him solely because he's famous ? And that's the cornerstone of Ginny's crush, isnt it? There's a lovely little paragraph in UKPB GOF C22 PG339 'Hermione's words about Krum kept coming back to him.'They only like him because he's famous!" Harry doubted very much if any of the girls who had asked to be his partner so far would have wanted to go to the ball with him if he hadn't been school champion. Then he wondered if this would bother him if Cho asked him.' Think about Hermione's lines about the Krum's fans and Krum 'They only like him because he is famous' - now what's the cornerstone of Ginny's crush on Harry ? I can't resist digging that in a little more, so I'll repeat repeat the extract from UKPB PS C6 PG73 'You know the black-haired boy who was near us in the station? Know who he is?' 'Who?' 'Harry Potter!' Harry heard the little girls voice. 'Oh Mum, Can I go on the train and see him, Mum,oh please...' So can you ever picture Harry asking Ginny out, willingly, knowing that the basis of her crush is his fame? Back to UKPB GOF C22 PG345 Harry and Ron are getting increasingly worried about finding dates to the ball: "And still Harry Hadn't asked Cho to the ball. He and Ron were getting a little nervous now, though as Harry Pointed out, Ron would look much less stupid than he wouldwithout a partner; Harry was supposed to be starting out the dancing with the other champions. 'I suppose there's always Moaning Myrtle,' he said gloomily, referring to the ghost who haunted the girl's toilet on the second floor." It is strange that Harry does not even consider asking Ginny out at this point especially since both Ron and Harry openly know that she, Ginny like Myrtle fancies him! Proof : UKPB COS C17 P240 'Urgh!' said Ron, as they left the bathroom for the dark deserted corridor outside. 'Harry! I think Myrtle's got fond of you! you've got competition, Ginny!' To further prove my point, I take you to the conversation Ron has with Hermione and Ginny asking them to go with Harry and him to the Yule Ball - Notice one thing - Harry's stony silence (and he's not shocked by the girl's attitude, not one bit bothered mind you; even though Ron is) during the conversation and after - Harry seems totally indifferent towards the whole incident, even though it seems evident that Ginny regrets having accepted Neville's invitation! UKPB GOF C22 PGS 348-349. (read it for yourself) To me it seems evident that he'd rather go out with a ghost or entertain scorpions than go out on a date with someone who has a crush on him just because he's "The Boy Who Lived" - Need I say more ? Lilac said: "My impression is that he politely endures her blushing and fumbling" That's a very reasonable impression you've got there about Harry politely enduring her blushing and fumbling, but have you asked yourself why he politely endures her blushing and fumbling and why he, on the other hand treats the Creevey boys and Gilderoy Lockhart like sh*t ? The reason, I suspect, is to do with the Weasley family (particularly Mrs. Weasley) who treat him as part of their own - would it be gratitude if he treated Ginny like he treated the Creevey boys and Lockhart? So what does he do ? he talks to her if she talks to him but ignores her otherwise! Of course, the next question that one might be tempted to ask is - if he dislikes Ginny so much, why save her life? Well, he saved Wormtail's life too, didn't he? Fact is, Harry is a do gooder, he likes saving lives - he'd save Snaps and no Malfoy's life too (no matter what he thinks of them), if it came to it! Keith [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From oppen at mycns.net Sat Mar 29 08:50:37 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 02:50:37 -0600 Subject: FILK---A Voldemort Carol Message-ID: <01ca01c2f5d0$458f0a00$2f560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 54521 ---------- A Voldemort Carol by Eric Oppen (ttto O Holy Night) Graveyard at night The stars are brightly gleaming This is the night of the Dark Lord's rebirth. Bone, blood and flesh, And Wormtail loudly screaming, He rises up, our Dark Lord walks the earth! Oh, Death Eaters, Who came not at his need, The things he'll do Will make you squirm and plead! Fall on your knees And pray he feels forgiving! The Dark Lord, Voldemort He walks the earth, once more reborn! The Dark Lord, Voldemort He walks the earth, Once more reborn! The Dark Lord's foe Tied to Tom Riddle's tombstone Will be set free, for his last fatal duel. Wand in his hand, To use the spells to him known He will soon meet a fate that is cruel. Oh, what is this, The wands they wield are brothers, No one knew this See Harry's dad and mother! Fall on your knees And pray that you'll escape this! The Dark Lord, Voldemort He tastes defeat, yet one more time! The Dark Lord, Voldemort, He tastes defeat At Potter's hands! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hollydaze at btinternet.com Sat Mar 29 14:14:02 2003 From: hollydaze at btinternet.com (Hollydaze) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 14:14:02 -0000 Subject: ....what I SHOULD have told you.... References: Message-ID: <004801c2f5fd$899d17a0$d63c8351@j0dhe> No: HPFGUIDX 54522 grace701 wrote: > > After reading this for the umpteenth time it sounds like Dumbledore > > is regretting not telling Harry something and I'm that impression > > from where he says "I should have told you". As though, something > > has just happened that could have been prevented. Is it just me > > that has read it this way? Devika wrote: > There is one thing that Harry wanted to know in PS/SS that Dumbledore > refused to tell him at that time. Voldemort had told Harry that he > only killed Lily because she had tried to prevent him from killing > Harry. In the hospital wing at the end of the book, Harry asked > Dumbledore why Voldemort would want to kill him (Harry) in the first > place. Dumbledore said something like, "Alas, the first question > you ask, I cannot answer...someday, when you are ready, you will > know." (Sorry for the inexact quote; PS/SS is the only book I don't > have with me) > > It seems like Dumbledore might be regretting not telling Harry why > Voldemort wanted to kill him in the first place fourteen years ago. > It would make sense, since this is a question that Harry asked > Dumbledore directly and that Dumbledore directly refused to answer-- > until Harry was ready. Surely, Harry is ready to know now. Your very close to the exact quote actually, it's: "Alas, the first thing you ask me, I cannot tell you. Not today. Not now. You will know one day... put it from your mind for now, Harry. When you are older... I know you hate to hear this... when you are ready, you will know". It's the structuring of this reply which leads me to conclude that this is NOT what Dumbledore is going to tell Harry. I believe this for two reasons. The first reason is kinda difficult to explain because I don't really understand why I react to it the way I do, it seems to just be a knee jerk reaction to it but there is something about the way Dumbledore says, "I cannot tell you. Not today. Not now". For some reason, that implies to me that it is something that Dumbledore really can't tell Harry, it's not just something that he has chosen not to tell Harry. When I compare it to the first quote, the "I should have told you" quote seems to imply that it is something that Dumbledore himself has decided to with-hold from Harry, something that he didn't need to with-hold but decided to anyway. Secondly Dumbledore says "when you are ready, you will know", NOT "when you are ready, I will tell you". That quote always looked to me like something that could be interpreted in two ways, 1) That Dumbledore is saying he will tell Harry at a later date or 2) That when Harry is ready to know, he will instinctively know, (e.g. something happens to him that explains why). To me this quote implies the second idea, that Harry will instinctively know. I feel this precisely because it does not say "when you are ready, I will tell you", which would seem a more logical choice of phrasing if that were the case. It seems to be a more subtle example of JK's continued fixation with twisting things :) There is a third reason but it is not to do with the structuring. I see this question about why Voldemort wanted to kill Harry as one of a few questions central to the plot, it is one of a few questions that run through all of the books. While most questions revolve around only a few books, e.g. (PoA) Why is Sirius after Harry? -one book- or (GoF) What is Snape doing over the summer? -to be resolved (probably) in OoP or book 6- this, "why would he want to kill me in the first place?" question is one of the questions that drives the entire story, it's one of the reasons we keep reading and so I don't think it will be answered this early in the series, it feels to me like something that will be resolved nearer the end, most likely the middle to end of book 7. Much as it is driving me mad wanting to know why V was after Harry, I think I might end up a little disappointed if it was resolved in book 5, unless knowing this piece of information plays a VERY vital role in other events in books 5, 6 and 7. HOLLYDAZE (Who is very glad that someone has re-awoken her ability to think about all things HP as she has been suffering from what another person on the list called "analysing block" for about 1 1/2 years! and finds it weird using the word "early" about book 5 in a 7 book series). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From keithmascarenhas at hotpop.com Sat Mar 29 10:11:00 2003 From: keithmascarenhas at hotpop.com (Keith Mascarenhas) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 15:41:00 +0530 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is the 4th person? References: Message-ID: <001d01c2f5db$84004b90$140110ac@e97z2grx09q8y3k> No: HPFGUIDX 54523 "But I have one guess of this person's identity: Romulus Lupin, a twin-brother to Remus Lupin, who went to Durmstrang, thus explaining partly why Sirius doubted Remus to be the traitor AND Sirius' extreme care about Durmstrang students later?" -- Finwitch I can see why you're headed in this direction, but I fail to see why would Lupin's parents would put one kid, Remus, in Hogwarts and the other, Romulus (if he exists), in Durmstrang ? It just doesn't make sense - especially if there is a magical quill in Hogwarts which notes down the names of children magical enough to go to Hogwarts. Keith [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Sat Mar 29 16:42:18 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 11:42:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] FILK: Everybody's Got a Lethifold In-Reply-To: <20030329004145.58182.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030329164218.15728.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54524 "Everybody's Got a Lethifold" (to the tune of Veggietales: "Everybody's Got a Water Buffalo") Somewhere in Scotland, JKR attempts to get over writer's block. Everybody's got a lethifold, Yours is new but mine is old. I don't know where they're bought and sold. But everybody's got lethifo-ooooooooold. I took my lethifold to King's Cross, Ate a fangirl - no big loss, Closed up with some candy floss, Oh everybody's got a ..." Bloomsbury Books: "Stop it, stop, stop right this instant! What do you think you're doing? You can't say everyone's got a lethifold when everyone does not have a lethifold! We're going to get nasty letters from the kids saying, "Where's my lethifold? Why don't I have a lethifold?" And then you'll be accused of blurring the lines between fiction and reality. Next thing you know, some lethifold worshiping cult will spring up, and you'll be one to blame. And are you prepared to deal with that? I don't think so! Just stop being so silly!" Narrator: "This has been Silly Songs with JKR. Tune in next time to hear JKR sing ..." JKR: "Everybody's got a baby basilisk, Yours is safe but mine's a risk. Tom's is dead but ..." ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Mar 29 17:30:01 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 17:30:01 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Failure and Melodrama (and a little SHIP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54525 >>Abigail frowns. "Well, that too, actually, but I was thinking about dueling. I had no problem with dueling when it was introduced in CoSbecause I thought that it was a sport, like fencing. I assumed that,like fencing, it originated from violent combat, but was now strictlyan athletic pursuit. I was disturbed (although given the wizardworld's warrior culture I probably shouldn't have been surprised)when Voldemort introduced dueling as an actual battle to the death,and then *insisted that he and Harry bow to each other*. How screwed up is that? Why should Harry offer any courtesy to a man who wantsto kill him?" "But he doesn't." Cindy points out. "Voldemort has to force Harry to bow." "Not because Harry believes that the 'formalities' are a crock whenyou're actually fighting for you life." Abigail answers. "Harry refuses to bow because his hatred for Voldemort outweighs his so-called honor. The fact that he stands up to meet Voldemort's spell later proves that. The entire attitude of 'just because we're here to kill one another doesn't mean we can't be civil to each other' is, in my opinion, disrespectful to life, and I think JKR is making that point when she doesn't give Cedric an honorable death"<<< A cold wind blows through the room, which is odd, because the doors and windows are closed. The firelight flickers, and a dark figure steps from the shadows. Everybody jumps. It's Pippin, making one of her rare visits to the Safe House. Abigail courteously offers her a s'more. "No thanks," says Pippin. "I never eat...s'mores." She smiles. "This conversation about Harry and failure intrigues me. But first, I'd like to say a little about the bow. Like most courtesies, it didn't orginate as courtesy--it's a way of saying, "I am very obviously making a point of not stabbing this person in the back. And we are going to fight now, so everybody else should get out of the way. " It began as a way to protect non-combatants. It is respectful of life. "But to return to the topic of failure," says Pippin, making herself comfortable near the fire and wondering if she shouldn't suggest adjourning to George's where there'd be more room, " in every book, Harry begins by perceiving himself as inadequate in some way, and by the end of the book he's conquered this inadequacy. In the first book it's ignorance, in the second it's his right to consider himself a Gryffindor, in the third, weakness, in the fourth, immaturity. But through all this, his nerve has failed him only once: he panics when confronted by the singing valentine in CoS. I'm wondering, what if Harry's nerve fails when it counts. What if he thinks he's failed through cowardice? You know, JKR has us all set up for the big death and thinking it's going to be Hagrid. But what if somebody else is going to die too? Say Hagrid dies in the middle of OoP. And yes, it's horrible , but then we're sort of breathing a sigh of relief and thinking, well, that's over with... And maybe, Ginny starts to step into Hagrid's place a little, as someone that Harry can confide in without being judged... and then, at the end, someone else dies, and it looks like Harry ran out on that person? Somebody like, well, Neville." "Pippin!" Abigail exclaims, "You wouldn't do that to Elkins!" "Well, I hope not for her sake, but I'm just speculating. Neville's death would be truly horrible to write, it would bang, Harry would feel bad about it, it would complicate things between Harry and Ginny, and best of all, if Harry's reputation as a hero takes a body blow, that would give Ginny the opportunity to show that she really cares about him, not about The Boy Who Lived." Cindy snorts. "What's all this about Ginny? Do you have a soft spot for freckly little girls, or what?" "No," says Pippin quietly, looking into the mirror over the mantle where her reflection does not appear, " I have a soft spot for victims of prejudice. And that's what Ginny is." " But she's a pureblood..." Abigail protests. "Oh, not character prejudice. *Reader* prejudice. First of all, she'll be fourteen or so in OoP. She's hardly a little girl any more. And then people keep saying she's an empty-headed fangirl. And what's that based on? a superficial first impression, the things her enemies say about her, and the way other people who admire Harry act. The same kind of reasons that people have for hating werewolves, or giants, or, or vampires. It's pure bigotry!" The others stare at her, lost for words. Pippin looks wistfully at a plate of s'mores. "Can't you..?" Abigail asks. Pippin shakes her head. "Not for five hundred years. But they do look good." Pippin From susannahlm at yahoo.com Sat Mar 29 18:13:47 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 18:13:47 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Failure and Melodrama Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54526 Derannimer stares in profound annoyance at the now-empty bag of marshmallows. Darn it. And just when she'd got her toasting fork fixed up too. Abigail is sitting above her on a stool, and is disrupting more than just the marshmallows. "I'm not so certain that I agree with the statement that Harry is perfect," she says thoughtfully. "At least, I'm pretty certain that Harry doesn't perceive himself as infallible. In fact, if you asked Harry to describe himself, I suspect that 'average' would be the operative word. He doesn't think of himself as very bright or very interesting or very special." "Who cares," points out Derannimer. "Harry's not got a big head, you know." "Absolutely," agrees Mel, "Harry is notoriously self-depreciating and hyper-critical of himself. Not to mention that we weren't discussing whether or not Harry would acknowledge his failure, but whether JKR would objectively show him failing to achieve a goal strictly through his own fault. In that sense, Harry has been infallible." Abigail blows on a smoking marshmallow. "That depends." "On what?" Meg asks. "On your definition of failure." There is a minute of silence, until Captain Cindy breaks it with the words: "A lack of success. Duh." "Yeah, but, see," says Abigail earnestly, "here's the thing: you seem to have separated failure into two distinct categories. There's failure as Harry perceives it, such as losing the Quidditch match in PoA and not being able to save Cedric's life. We, and the people around Harry, know that he had no power over these events, but he won't accept that, and judges himself very harshly. What you seem to be lamenting is the absence of a failure that is actually Harry's fault." "Well, yeah," begins Derannimer, "because--" "I just don't really understand why." "Well, it's because--" "I mean," continues Abigail, seemingly on a roll, "Harry already beats himself up too much--does it really matter if he does it without justification? The emotional result is the same." "Yeah but who the--" "Harry *resolves to do better*--in PoA, for example, he seeks out a form of defense against the Dementors, and perseveres with it far past the bounds of reason, simply so that he won't fail his team in another Quidditch match. And that's the point of failure, isn't it?" "Well, not li--" "We learn from our mistakes, if we survive them. They galvanize us and encourage us to do and be better. Harry's already got that dynamic, and in fact it's working in overdrive, so I find it interesting that you're all so eager to see him genuinely fall on his face. It suggests an ulterior motive." "IF YOU'D JUST SHUT UP I'D TELL YOU!" Derannimer waves her toasting fork angrily in Abigail's direction. Abigail doesn't seem to mind. Her face takes on an impish expression. "Perhaps what we're looking at is a secret desire for Angst, or even... Hurt-Comfort?" As Derannimer mouths speechlessly at her, Abigail grins and continues. "Yup," she says smugly, "we're looking at Hurt-Comfort here, aren't we?" "We are blasted well *not*!" exclaims Derannimer. "I don't crush on *Harry!* Come off it! I'm a Bent SnapeFan!" "You *are*?" says Captain Cindy, in tones of the utmost revulsion. "Yeah," says Derannimer defiantly, and then, catching the look on the Captain's face, hastily continues. "But that's not really the point. Abigail, I am now going to explain to you why *I,* at any rate, want Harry to fail. "I want Harry to fail for the same reason I want Dumbledore to make a stupid mistake, and not be Omniscient!Dumbledore. For the same reason I want Voldemort to be occasionally half-way competent. For the same reason I want the Dementors to escape from Azkaban--they're going to, anyway, want to take a bet?--and for the same reason I really *don't* want forces sympathetic to Dumbledore to take over the Ministry of Magic and rid the magical community of the idiot Fudge." "You're a Death Eater?" essays Captain Cindy. "No," says Derannimer, glaring at her, "I want the fight against Voldemort to be *hard.* And I want the good guys to be fallible. I *hate* it when the good guys never do anything wrong or stupid. It's so *simplistic.* I've *always* hated it; when I was a little girl and watched my brother play with his green Army men, I used to tell him that the good guys shouldn't always win the battles. They should lose some of them. They should win in the end, but they should lose some of them. They should *fail,* every once in a while. "The good guys *should* fail; as a matter of fact, they should screw up *big time.* And since Harry is the chief good guy--he's the *hero,* for Pete's sake--that means that *he* is going to have to fail. He is going to have to screw up big time." "So basically," says Abigail, "the reason that merely *perceived* failures won't cut it, for you, is that you don't care about the emotional effect of the failure. You just care about the failure itself." "Yeah," says Derannimer, nodding. "I don't want him to fail because I want him to build character, or something; I want him to fail because I want him to have *failed.* And not just failed in Quidditch, but failed *as a good guy in the fight against the bad guys.* Failed in the context of the major struggle of the books." Derannimer thinks for a minute and then says: "And Dumbledore too, of course. Maybe especially Dumbledore. I'm quite encouraged by that one quote we've seen out of OOP; we need more 'He had expected Dumbledore to pull some amazing solution out of the air. But no. . . ' moments." She is silent for another moment and then adds, sounding quite irritated, "Only this time, Dumbledore needs to actually *be* fallible, and not immediately pull some amazing solution out of the air *anyway.*" "Well, he's gonna be dead soon enough," points out Captain Cindy cheerfully. "He'll be plenty fallible then." Abigail frowns. "And that's another thing," she begins crossly. "You people seem to have this bizarre fascination with killing all the characters." "Well, yeah," says Captain Cindy. "It Bangs." "Well, maybe. But what you four have been calling Bangs, I call melodrama." There is a silence. It is the kind of silence you could scoop bits out of with a spoon. [1] "What." The Captain's voice is absolutely deadly. Derannimer, who has no wish to see a human being lose her life before her very eyes, hastily says: "She means. . . uh. . . that we're not really Banging. That these are false Bangs. She isn't actually disparaging Banging itself, I'm sure." "She's not?" the Captain asks grimly. "'Cause from what *I* just heard, it sure sounds like--" "All I'm saying," says Abigail, who appears to have realized the dreadful peril she has just talked herself into, "is that even if I were to accept that Hermione might die (and it would definitely be in book 7 if it happens at all) I certainly wouldn't accept the scenario that you lot cooked up." "Now hang on here a minute," begins Derannimer, "When you say 'you lot,' who excactly are you--" "You mean," cried Melody, eyes glittering in the firelight, "The one where Hermione is held ransom? And they come to get her, but then there is a choice that must be made, and she seeing what has to be done, sacrifices herself to keep Harry from having to make it?" "And Harry could be in the dark. Wand raised. Lit by candles looking for her..." Cindy says lost in thought. "Eeurgh," Derannimer states, "No, look, Abigail, I wouldn't--" Abigail doesn't seem to be listening. "What is wrong with you guys!" she yells. "Have you both lost your mind?!" She leaps from her seat and scatters marshmallows every which way. "Where, in the entirety of canon, has there ever been a scene of such obvious... such obscene... such..." "Pathos?" offers Meg. "Spine-chilling terror?" muses Cindy. "Soul-shattering, cinema-like sadness?" volunteers Melody, with a happy smile. "Schlock?" suggests Derannimer. She apparently is not heard by Abigail. "Pap!" Abigail spits out, finally. "Cliche! Puerile, B-movie death-fetish!" "I dunno about death-fetish," says Derannimer doubtfully, "but it seems kinda tacky to me." "Tacky?" inquires Mel, hurt. "Well, you know." Derannimer shrugs apologetically. "Over-the-top." Abigail seems to be calming down somewhat, apparently slightly mollified that at least one person in the room does agree with her. Certainly she isn't actually frothing at the mouth any more. She takes several deep breaths, and looks at the three-shocked-and-one- mildly-approving faces surrounding her. "I apologize," she says finally, a bit weakly. "That was a bit more... strongly worded then I had originally planned. But I do stand by my words, or a more reasonably stated version thereof. JKR doesn't deal in melodrama, which can be defined as..." Like a conjurer, Abigail pulls a doorstop- sized dictionary from a coat pocket. "A drama, such as a play, film, or television program, characterized by exaggerated emotions, stereotypical characters, and interpersonal conflicts." She closes the book with a satisfying thump. "Snape dying in Harry's arms, after taking an AK for him, and saying with his last breath 'You have your mother's eyes' is a melodrama, and so is Hermione valiantly sacrificing herself for Harry's sake." Abigail suddenly frowns. "And anyway, don't you think we have quite enough sacrificial females in this series already?" "Absolutely," agrees Derannimer cheerfully, "go talk to Elkins about it. But look, I don't want any lousy sacrificial females; I just want a good hideous death or too." Abigail wrinkles her nose. "That's what I was *saying* though, before we got onto this whole thing about the B--about the melodrama. Why is it that you all seem to think that a whole bunch of characters are going to die? Why, by the time we get to book 7, there are more dead characters then living ones. It just seems to belittle the importance of death. How shattering is it that a character dies if it happens every other week?" "Hang on!" cries Cindy. "This is too much! You barge in here, you derail our discussion with disjointed musings, you scarf up all the marshmallows, and now you're seriously going to suggest that Harry's great failure is going to about... *Quidditch*?" Have you taken leave of your senses?" Abigail glances down at the empty marshmallow bag she seems to be holding. "Are you sure this was all me?" she asks. "I mean, I think I saw Derannimer take one." "That was an hour ago," Derannimer says coldly. "I *just* got my toasting fork to work properly, and then you came in here and ate *all the marshmallows.*" "Oh. Ah. Sorry." Abigail smiles rather sheepishly and then continues. "But I really don't think anyone has to die." "Except Hagrid," interjects Derannimer, "because Hagrid's *going* to die." "And Dumbledore," adds Captain Cindy. "And Snape!" she says, brightening. Derannimer glares at her. "You guys are hopeless," says Abigail, shaking her head. "But look, I do think that I can offer a big failure for Harry that is about Quidditch and isn't insignificant. We're all wondering who the next Quidditch captain is going to be, right? And I don't think I'm alone in concluding that it will be Harry." "Are you going to suggest that Harry will mismanage the team?" asks Melody scornfully. "You think that's meaningful, in the grand scheme of things?" "Actually, I do. Think about it - Harry's first role as a leader, and he fails. That's big." "Well, but only to *him,*" Derannimer points out. "It doesn't cause the good guys to suffer in any way." "But look," says Abigail earnestly, "I was actually going to make it bigger then that. What if Harry neglects the Quidditch team, because he's too busy fighting evil on Dumbledore's team? He has to choose between what's perceived as important and what he knows is important, and he loses out, because his teammates are angry at him (and probably the rest of the house too). This is a grown-up's problem, and that's another thing that failures are good for - they force us to grow up. Only children think that they, or anyone else, is infallible. That's why I liked Derannimer's suggestion that Harry will witness Snape allowing Hagrid to die. Because even though I think Hagrid's actual death in this scenario is overwrought, the idea that Harry should learn that sometimes you have to choose the lesser evil, and that he should learn this lesson from Snape, is compelling." "Well, it's certainly unpleasant for Harry, but it doesn't really solve the problem of the good guys always winning," says Derannimer. "And that's really the reason I want to see Harry fail in the first place. "And I certainly don't know what you mean by 'overwrought.' I've a mind to take significant umbrage at that." Abigail digs in one of her bottomless pockets and produces another bag of marshmallows. "But I don't think I'll bother," adds Derannimer happily, grabbing the bag out of Abigail's hand. There ensues a brief scuffle between her and the Captain. The Captain wins. "But look," says Cindy, tossing a marshmallow generously at Derannimer, "Even if Quidditch failure did answer Derannimer's objection, how does it Bang? How does is motivate Harry to get Voldemort?" "Since when does Harry need motivation to get Voldemort?" Abigail asks with a quizzical expression. "Isn't it enough that Voldemort killed Harry's parents and brought untold suffering to thousands? Harry sees every day the unhealed scars of Voldemort's reign of terror. It seems silly to suggest that he needs yet another death of a loved one to have a personal stake in Voldemort's demise." "No, but," objects Derannimer, "I agree with the Captain here. Harry isn't trying to get Voldemort. He never has. He's fought back when attacked; but even at the end of GOF, he doesn't really seem to have gone on the *offensive.* And he's going to need to, for the light side to win." "Well, maybe." Abigail shrugs. "I'm not sure I agree though. And as for Bangs. Not all Bangs involve death and destruction. Growing up is as painful and difficult as rescuing a Hippogriff or facing a deranged Dark wizard." "But not Bangy," interjects Captain Cindy. Abigail ignores her and continues. "I think that Harry finding himself in a situation where he simply cannot succeed, despite doing all the right things, reverberates as deeply as any Bang you could suggest. And by keeping it relatively low-key, JKR avoids the pitfall of cheapening true horror - death and evil - by giving it to us too often." "Yeah, but," points out the Captain, "we're not going to have true horror *at all* if someone doesn't die." The theorists are silent for a moment. Captain Cindy has already eaten almost all the marshmallows. The door suddenly creaks open. Pippin stands in the doorway, not-so-dramatically framed by the nightlight. "Guys?" she says. "You know, the Royal George is still open. Want to come have a drink? I've been eavesdropping on this conversation, and I've got a couple of ideas. . . " Derannimer (who really does think Hagrid's going to die. And who really does hope Snape isn't, but thinks that he might be.) ------------------------- [1] P.G.Wodehouse, at some point or other. From BEANNEBOY1 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Mar 29 12:12:53 2003 From: BEANNEBOY1 at HOTMAIL.COM (beanneboy) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 12:12:53 -0000 Subject: Lucius Malfoy and St. Mungos. In-Reply-To: <017f01c2f5cd$119874a0$2f560043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54527 Eric Oppen wrote: > Actually, there are two perfectly logical reasons why Lucius Malfoy might be > donating to St. Mungo's. > > One is that he might very well feel that the wizard community's system of > magical health care needs to be kept in tip-top shape, so that if precious, > irreplacable _he_ ever gets hurt or sick, he won't have to trust himself to > the mercy of *yuck* Muggles. > > Another is that St. Mungo's might have also treated some of his fellow Death > Eaters, or even Malfoy himself. They could well have an attitude that > quarrels and wars among wizards do not cross their threshold---in St. > Mungo's, all they care about is getting you well. Even Lucius Malfoy is > probably capable of gratitude. > > Of course, if it gives him a source of information and/or control over > people, he's not one to look that sort of gift Kneazle in the mouth, now is > he? now me: I dont disagree especially the last about having a hold over people, although my personal opinion is that it is all part of the pretense of keeping the good old family name with everyone (especially the MOM). Lucius Malfoy the samaritan, which ignorant fools like Fudge are to keen to believe anyway that was the way I saw it, Lee From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Sat Mar 29 19:17:58 2003 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 19:17:58 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Why I Hate H/G - Attn: KEITH Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54528 Hello again, Keith! I take it you didn't read my response [message 54483 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/54483], as I don't see any references made to the points I brought up in that one. Since this post is almost exactly like the original one with a couple of changes, I will address those changes now. <<>> Me: Yes, but Ginny's and Harry's responses are much worse than Neville's, which I would assume is because of their direct contact with Voldemort, whereas Neville did not have that direct contact...it was DE's that attacked the Longbottoms. Vapormort was long gone by then. The fact remains that they are the only two people that Voldemort has tried to kill but survived. Something is definitely up with that. And I think a more appropriate word choice for Ginny would have been "naivety" rather than "stupidity", though I would imagine she thinks of herself as stupid for what happened. Thank-goodness Harry has never said out loud or thought to himself, "What a stupid girl, letting herself be possessed by that diary!". And remember, Dumbledore even said, "Older and wiser wizards than [Ginny] have been hoodwinked by Lord Voldemort." [USHC COS 330] I would even venture to say that she was targeted specifically by Lucius to recieve the diary because of the Lucius/Arthur rivalry, not to mention that it would jeopardize Arthur's position at the ministry[USHC COS 335-336]: *** "A clever plan," said Dumbledore in a level voice, still staring Mr. Malfoy straight in the eye. "Because if Harry here" -- Mr. Malfoy shot Harry a swift, sharp look -- "and his friend Ron hadn't discovered this book, why -- Ginny Weasley might have taken all the blame. No one would ever have been able to prove she hadn't acted of her own free will...." Mr. Malfoy said nothing. His face was suddenly masklike. "And imagine," Dumbledore went on, "what might have happened then....The Weasleys are one of our most prominent pure-blood families. Imagine the effect on Arthur Weasley and his Muggle Protection Act, if his own daughter was discovered attacking and killing Muggle-borns....Very fortunate the diary was discovered, and Riddle's memories wiped from it. Who knows what the consequences might have been otherwise...." *** Sounds to me like that was the plan Lucius had in mind. Keith: <<>> Me: Yes, I agree with that. Harry does the right thing when given the choice; we expect no less of him. Though I think that choice had more to do with not having Remus and Sirius become murderers than anything. But Harry wasn't disgusted with Ginny after he saves her life like he was with Wormtail, was he? Didn't think a negative thing about her after that. Leaves the door wide open, if you ask me. Though, I would imagine that if Harry found himself in a position where he had to save Snape's or Malfoy's life, a reference to live scorpions would definitely come up!:-) But he would still do the right thing. I suspect, Keith, that we'll have to agree to disagree where Ginny is concerned, though I feel the need to defend her whenever possible. Whatever Ginny's role in the plot turns out to be, I just want to find out more about her, dang it! Like other Ginny fans, I proudly and boldly exclaim a phrase coined by Firoza: "BRING ON THE GINNY!" http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.net/phillyarticle.shtml ~Lilac~ From gandharvika at hotmail.com Sat Mar 29 19:33:56 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 19:33:56 +0000 Subject: (FILK) When I Was At School Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54529 Don't see many filks sung by Percy... When I Was At School (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _When I Was A Lad_ from Gilbert and Sullivan's H.M.S. Pinafore) Dedicated to Haggridd. Listen to it on Real Audio here (look under MPEG AUDIO HISTORIC RECORDINGS): http://math.boisestate.edu/gas/pinafore/html/pinafore_midi.html ...it takes a little while to load, but it's jolly good fun. Percy is telling his secret of success to his brothers Fred, George and Ron. Although Percy is being dead serious, his brothers (who are singing the chorus) are making fun of him. Percy: When I was at school I soon was made Prefect due to my outstanding grades I'd give House Points or take them away And my Prefect badge I polished every single day Chorus (in a mocking tone of voice): His Prefect badge he polished every single day Percy: My Prefect badge I polished 'til it gleamed And now I am here working at the Ministry Chorus: His Prefect badge he'd polish 'til it gleamed And now he is there working at the Ministry Percy: Our mother she became overjoyed When I was made Hogwarts Head Boy I'd done so well in my exams called OWLs And never from my mother did I get a Howl' Chorus: And never from our mother did he get a Howl' Percy: I must say she was so proud of me And now I am here working at the Ministry Chorus: We must say she was so proud of he And now he is there working at the Ministry Percy: After school I was no slouch I started working under Mister Crouch I took down notes and I made him tea And I wouldn't mind when he would call me "Weatherby" Chorus: He wouldn't mind when he would call him "Weatherby" Percy: I served Mister Crouch so faithfully That's how I'll get ahead here at the Ministry Chorus: He served Mister Crouch so faithfully That's how he'll get ahead there at the Ministry Percy: I served so well, it was no accident That Crouch chose me to be his assistant I took his place when he fell ill Following instructions written by his quill Chorus: Following instructions written by his quill Percy: I'm following instructions so carefully Since I really do love working at the Ministry Chorus: He's following instructions so carefully Since he really does love working at the Ministry Percy: My long term plans I'll make public I'd fain to be Minster of Magic I'll do my duties and hold no grudge And I'll be as great as Cornelius Fudge Chorus: And he'll be as great as Cornelius Fudge? Percy: I can see it now, I'll make history When I am made the Minister of the Ministry Chorus: He can see it now, he'll make history When he is made the Minister of the Ministry Percy: Now brothers, listen attentively Or else you'll remain in mediocrity A bit of ambition is all it took You could do with taking a leaf out of my own book Chorus: We really do not think we will Percy, you schnook Percy: Follow my advice and you could be like me And get yourselves positions at the Ministry Chorus: Follow his advice? And we could be like he? We think we'd rather not work for the Ministry -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Mar 29 19:52:09 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 19:52:09 -0000 Subject: FILK: Suck Up to Voldie Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54530 Suck Up to Voldie A filk by Pippin To the tune of Cole Porter's 'Brush Up Your Shakespeare' >From "Kiss Me, Kate" Hear the original: http://www.broadwaymidi.com/down/KissMeKate-BrushUpYourS hakespeare.mid The scene: At the Graveyard, Voldemort chastens his followers Voldemort: My friends, as if it were yesterday At my call you stand here today United under my Mark again We are as one and yet I complain I sense an odour of treachery A stench as of guilt and disloyalty You left me to cope with my fate alone When all that I needed was blood flesh and bone Do you think I'll cut you slack When you all forgot your Master ? There's one way now I'm back That you'll avert a disaster. Suck up to Voldie Start grovelling now Suck up to Voldie Let me see you scrape and bow Lucius: My lord your return is miraculous We all crave to know how you came back to us Voldemort: Lucius you were out torturing Muggles When you should have been aiding my struggles Your energies do you no credit When my Dark Mark ascended you fled it. Suck up to Voldie You must all kowtow Lucius: Suck up to Voldie Start grovelling now Suck up to Voldie And your loyalty avow Voldemort: For thirteen years I was rejected You Death Eaters left me neglected You'll be getting a Curse or a Crucio If you offer to me an excuse-io And you, Crabbe and Goyle, must do better And obey my commands to the letter Suck up to Voldie And you might live now All: Suck up to Voldie Start grovelling now Suck up to Voldie Or we'll be snake chow Voldemort: You've enjoyed your life free of the viper Now it's time to be paying the piper For claiming you weren't an oppressor And supporting that twinkly Professor I consider it perfectly heinous So it's either bow down or Uranus Suck up to Voldie Like you all know how All: Suck up to Voldie Start grovelling now Suck up to Voldie Or we'll all say "Ow!" From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Sat Mar 29 21:08:29 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 16:08:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: TBAY: BartyCrouchJr!Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030329210829.23678.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54531 "Slumber party," says Pip opening up the door of the Safe House, "is upstairs." "I really can't join in," says Eileen reluctantly. "I just thought I'd drop in to see if you have any asbestos suits you could lend us." "Of course," says Pip, a twinkle in her eye. "After that last barbecue, Melody insisted we buy a few. Melody, could you come down a moment?" Melody appeared on the stairs in her night-wear. "What's up, Pip?" "Eileen wants to borrow some asbestos suits." "In the hall closet," replies Melody. "I'd better get them out myself. Some of the wards on the closet produce pretty nasty results." "Do you want a cup of tea?" asks Pip. "If you don't mind." "Sneeky won't," says Pip. "Oh, nice rabbit. New?" "Don't touch it," Pip warns. "I'm fairly sure it won't take to you." Eileen pulls back her hand in the nick of time. "I've been listening in to your conversations with Elkins," begins Pip. "You know who Barty Crouch Jr reminds me of, when you talk about him, Eileen? There's another character in the Wizarding World who is always saying "My father" this and "my father" that." And it's canonical that he was pretty intolerable when he first came to Hogwarts." Eileen looks ready to hug Pip, then thinks better of it. Who knows what poiky objects Pip might have concealed underneath her cloak? "I really hate Draco Malfoy," Eileen begins slowly. "Whenever I mean to talk some sense about him, I end up ranting. Do you know how many times I've started writing out a post about Draco and Barty Jr. and had to stop because it was turning into a rant against rich, spoiled kids?" "Lovely," says Pip. "Draco seems to have a pretty serious case of father-worship, don't you think? And how does his father respond? He complains about Draco's school marks in front of Mr Borgin." "Hmmmm... well Crouch Sr. didn't complain about Barty Jr's marks," says Eileen, just in case anyone would think the worse of Crouch Sr. for the parallel. "He never gave his son any love!" cries Melody coming into the room. "Barty Jr's marks were just adequate for Crouch Sr., something he expected! Barty Jr. was deprived! The asbestos suits aren't in the closet, Pip." "Try underneath the stairs." "Barty Jr. deprived indeed!" huffs Eileen. "The spoiled brat. I bet his father gave him everything: a trampoline, a doll's house, a multi-coloured ink pen, a sticker book, an Easy Bake Oven..." Pip stares at Eileen. "Well, maybe not exactly," says Eileen. "But I so wanted an Easy Bake oven." "Right. Whose father buys new brooms for the team he's on?" "Who gets sweets every day from home?" says Eileen furiously. "And soda pop. And fruit salad cups. And juice boxes. And really expensive delicatessan meat in their sandwiches." Pip realizing that the discussion has gone off track again, decides to humour Eileen. "And you?" "Peanut butter sandwiches. My mother could never see anything wrong with peanut butter sandwiches," says Eileen. "I would have killed for corned beef." "So we have two very spoiled kids," says Pip. "The last remaining member of a pure-blood family as old as any..." says Eileen thoughtfully. "Right. Whose father complains to the Ministry when he's injured? Whose father makes huge donations to charities, which probably helped get Lucius off his Death Eater charges. Draco has been brought up to believe that his family name and his family money can get him out of *anything*." Eileen stared. "Such as taking part in Death Eater activities? Such as torturing people like the Longbottoms?" "Uh, huh," said Pip. "Oh Good," says Eileen. "Is Miss Eileen wanting a spot of brandy in her tea?" asks Sneeky, coming in with the tea tray. "Thank you," says Eileen. "You know, there're quite a few similarities between Draco and Barty Jr. They both have pale skin and blond hair, for one thing. I was quite gratified when someone suggested they might be related a few weeks ago. It would open up a very interesting subplot, it would, if Winky's misplaced loyalties to the Crouch family ended up with Draco.... But that's neither here nor there. They both have the... how shall I say this? - a talent for "cruel yet accuration impressions?" Pip laughs. "And if Draco got caught, and Lucius didn't want to get dragged in? If Draco didn't fit in with his plans for ruling the WW? What do you think? Another trial scene with another father saying 'You are no son of mine?' " "I like it very much," says Eileen. "Doesn't look good for Draco, does it?" "It depends on which parallel is being set up," says Pip. "What do you mean?" "Whether the Malfoys will parallel the Crouches because the father condemns the son, or whether the parallel is that the son turns against the father." "I think Draco's going to be redeemed," says Eileen in a small voice. "Really?" "Yeah. Sympathetically redeemed. And ever so dead. There's just things that don't make sense about his character right now. I used to think it was sloppy characterization, but the Barty Jr. parallel is too neat to be an accident. I wonder if Draco will be finding his father "disappointing." After all, isn't Lucius playing the same game with Draco that Crouch Sr. played with his son? It's dangerous to pretend you're a fanatic when you're really an opportunistic hypocrite." "You really don't like Lucius Malfoy, do you?" "I've heard over and over again that Draco's big moment will be when he realizes that Lucius is devoted to Voldemort over his family, that his father is just a slave of Voldemort, but I'm sensing that Draco's big dramatic moment will be when he realizes that Lucius is not the devoted slave of Voldemort he's pretended to be, that the principles Draco has bought into were largely a self-interested act on his father's part. And then I shall be very interested to see what Draco does." Eileen swigs down the rest of the tea, and stands up. "Oh, another Barty Jr. parallel," she says. "They're both consummate screw-ups. They... ACCCK!" she cries as she feels the touch of cold steel at her neck. "I always keep my sword underneath the stairs," says Melody coldly. "I think you'd best be taking these asbestos suits and going." Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Sat Mar 29 21:15:22 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 21:15:22 -0000 Subject: SHIP Why I Hate H/G Attn: Lilac In-Reply-To: <000e01c2f5c3$1b1fec60$140110ac@e97z2grx09q8y3k> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54532 "Keith Mascarenhas" wrote: Now let's get back to Ginny's crush - what's her crush all about - it's all about meeting/knowing the famous "Boy Who Lived". Do you think Harry's comfortable with this ? Do you think Harry would want to go out or have a relationship with someone who has a crush on him solely because he's famous ? And that's the cornerstone of Ginny's crush, isnt it? There's a lovely little paragraph in UKPB GOF C22 PG339 'Hermione's words about Krum kept coming back to him.'They only like him because he's famous!" Harry doubted very much if any of the girls who had asked to be his partner so far would have wanted to go to the ball with him if he hadn't been school champion. Then he wondered if this would bother him if Cho asked him.' Think about Hermione's lines about the Krum's fans and Krum 'They only like him because he is famous' - now what's the cornerstone of Ginny's crush on Harry ? =================================================================== Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; Keith askes a very good question here, "now what is the cornerstone of Ginny's crush on Harry?" I would think it would be better asked 1)"as of NOW, what would be the REASON of Ginny's crush on Harry?" Meaning, AFTER ther first meeting, why does Ginny, as of the 4th book, STILL have a crush on Harry? Also, 2)"what makes Ginny's crush differant from all the girls that follow Krum around school?", a pretty good question also, IMHO. But, instead of asking these questions; Keith asks: 1a)So can you ever picture Harry asking Ginny out, willingly, knowing that the basis of her crush is his fame? Back to UKPB GOF C22 PG345 Harry and Ron are getting increasingly worried about finding dates to the ball: "And still Harry Hadn't asked Cho to the ball. He and Ron were getting a little nervous now, though as Harry Pointed out, Ron would look much less stupid than he wouldwithout a partner; Harry was supposed to be starting out the dancing with the other champions. 'I suppose there's always Moaning Myrtle,' he said gloomily, referring to the ghost who haunted the girl's toilet on the second floor." 2a) It is strange that Harry does not even consider asking Ginny out at this point especially since both Ron and Harry openly know that she, Ginny like Myrtle fancies him! Proof : UKPB COS C17 P240 =================================================================== Me again; As I stated above, if the right question is asked, a better answer might be found. And instead of this being "proof" of anything, it might just be another statement found in a book of over 730 pages. Let me start answering some of my questions. 1)"As of NOW, what is the reason...?" Maybe after knowing Harry for 3 years, she has come to know him a little, and she sorta likes what she sees. 2)"What makes Ginny's crush differert?" Humm, as I stated above, maybe because she knew him for going on 3 years while not only going to school with him, but also being in the same house, Gryffindor together. Or, maybe because he has stayed in her house over 2 summers. (Between PS/SS and PoA &GoF) Now to answer one of Keiths questions, of which I numbered: 1a)"can you ever picture Harry asking Ginny out, willingly, knowing that the basis of her crush is his fame?" Not on those basis, but if it was because they have become friends, yes. If it was because he had gotten over the very first statement, that he, Harry ever heard come out of a 10 year olds mouth, yes. And as fot that, you must not think much of Harry if you think that he would hold a statment against someone who is 10 years old for 4 years. A statement that EVERYONE, basicly, has made. Can you tell me who hasn't made one statement about Harry and his fame? 2a)"Proof"?, proof of what? That Harry nor Ron thought of asking Hermione OR Ginny to the Ball? If this was you question I would have to say Yes. But that was not the point of your question, was it? I guess you were meaning that both Ron and Harry thought of Ginny as "a girl", but only thought of Herione as a "?" what? other? If they had not realised that Hermione was a "girl", knowing she was a girl, what makes you think they would think of Ginny any different? Keith goes on tho say: To further prove my point, I take you to the conversation Ron has with Hermione and Ginny asking them to go with Harry and him to the Yule Ball - Notice one thing - Harry's stony silence (and he's not shocked by the girl's attitude, not one bit bothered mind you; even though Ron is) during the conversation and after - Harry seems totally indifferent towards the whole incident, even though it seems evident that Ginny regrets having accepted Neville's invitation! UKPB GOF C22 PGS 348-349. (read it for yourself) To me it seems evident that he'd rather go out with a ghost or entertain scorpions than go out on a date with someone who has a crush on him just because he's "The Boy Who Lived" - Need I say more ? ==================================================================== Me again, "need I say more?", To be honest, yes. I read the same statement and think that instead of Harry wanting to go out with MM, then it being as much in a sort of shock. Something like "Oh no, who am I going out with? I'll be the only champion at the ball without a date." After all, on page 399 of GoF, US, it says "This is mad, said Ron. We're the only ones left that hasn't got anyone." Right after this, all the other stuff you talk about happens, about Ron asking Hermione to the ball, then Ginny. So, if you consider the fact that they are pretty much running out of time, that everyone they had asked to the dance has said "sorry, but no" (not that they had asked that many, but everyone they had asked did say no), it would not be to far fetched that Harry was being quite because he was in a sort of shock or trying to figure a way out of his and Rons problem. After all, as soon as he came to, so to speak, on page 401, he is asked "What's got into them? he demanded. But Harry had just seen Parvati and Lavender come through... Wait here, he said to Ron, and he stood up, walked straight up to Parvari..." Sort of like the "What got into them" that was "demanded" by Ron woke him out of his little stooper and got Harry into action once more. Not that he, Harry was praying that Ginny would say no. And finally, Keith askes; Of course, the next question that one might be tempted to ask is - if he dislikes Ginny so much, why save her life? Well, he saved Wormtail's life too, didn't he? Fact is, Harry is a do gooder, he likes saving lives - he'd save Snaps and no Malfoy's life too (no matter what he thinks of them), if it came to it! Me finally also; I agree, Harry is a "do gooder" and would save anyone he could. But this still is not why he saved Ginny's life, IMO. I think he saved Ginny because SHE, Ginny, was Harry's friend. Maybe not "girlfriend", but most surely a friend. Fred > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmholmes at kjsl.com Sat Mar 29 20:06:07 2003 From: jmholmes at kjsl.com (slytherincess) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:06:07 -0000 Subject: FF/FILK: Draco's Hairbrush Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54533 Eileen, "The Students Who Don't Do Anything" was so much fun! It's inspired me to submit "Draco's Hairbrush Song," which I FILKed for the VeggieTales thread over at the Sugar Quill a month or so back. VeggieTales crack me up- they deserve their own category for FILKs, I think! (I'm thinking of doing "Oh My Hermione" to "Oh Barbara Manatee"). For those unfamiliar with the original song ("The Hairbrush Song" from VeggieTales), I have made an mp3 for those interested (2.9MEG). It's available at my own personal website at: http://www.milclan.com/Slytherincess/thehairbrushsong.mp3 Draco's Hairbrush Song (FILKED from the SONG "The Hairbrush Song" from VeggieTales) Narrator: "Our curtain opens as Draco Malfoy, having just finished his after-Quidditch shower, is looking for his beloved hairbrush. Having no success, Draco cries out ..." Draco: "Oh, where is my hairbrush? My fair hair needs a good brush! Oh, where, oh, where, oh, my, my, hair, is, very, very, fair, oh, where, oh, where... is my hairbrush?" Narrator: "Having heard his cry, Harry Potter enters the scene. Shocked and slightly embarrassed at the sight of Draco in a towel, Harry attempts to retain his composure and reports ..." Harry: "Er.I think I saw your hairbrush back there!" Harry points to a dark corner of the Quidditch changing room, where a pile of mouldering towels lie, then quickly flees the changing area. Draco: "Back there is my hairbrush. In a lair, lies my hairbrush. Back there, back there, a lair, my lair, oh, where, my lair, back there, dark lair, is where ... I'll find my hairbrush!" Narrator: "Having heard Draco's joyous proclamation, Marcus Flint enters the scene. Shocked and slightly embarrassed at the sight of Draco in a towel, Flint regains his composure and comments ..." Flint: "Why do you need a hairbrush? You have glue in your hair!" Narrator: "Draco is taken aback. The thought had never occurred to him. Draco Malfoy? With Lego hair? What would this mean? What will become of him? What will become of his hairbrush? Draco wonders ..." Draco: "Glue hair.won't need hairbrush. Glue hair.won't need hairbrush. Glue hair, glue hair, no fair, glue hair, from where, from where, did I get glue hair. Oh, my hairbrush." Narrator: "Having heard his wonderings, Severus Snape enters the scene. Shocked and slightly embarrassed at the sight of Draco in a towel, Snape regains his composure and confesses ..." Snape: "Malfoy, that old hairbrush of yours ... Well, you never use it, you don't really need it. So, well, I'm sorry ... I didn't know. I gave it to Granger - 'cause she's got hair to spare!" Narrator: "Feeling a deep sense of loss, Draco stumbles back and laments ..." Draco: "Not fair! Oh, my hairbrush. Not fair! My poor hairbrush. Not fair, not fair, glue hair, glue hair, my hairbrush is grooming the Mudblood's hair! My poor hairbrush!" Narrator: "Having heard his lament, Granger enters the scene. Herself in a towel, both Draco and Granger are shocked and slightly embarrassed at the sight of each other. And why is Granger in the Quidditch showers in the first place? Nevermind. Recognizing Draco's generosity, Granger is thankful ..." Granger: "Thanks for the hairbrush, Malfoy." Narrator: "Yes, good has been done here. Granger exits the scene with a toss of her magnificent, bushy coif. Draco smirks and sneers, but, still feeling an emotional attachment for the hairbrush, calls out ..." Draco: "Take care of my hairbrush. Take care, oh my hairbrush. Take care, take care, don't dare not care. Take care. Nice hair. No fair. Take care, take care ... of my hairbrush." Narrator: "The end!" From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Sat Mar 29 21:44:53 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 16:44:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] FILK: Barty Crouch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030329214453.70457.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54534 Hi! Lovely filk. I was delighted at the idea of singing Boney M, since I've been banned from doing so in the house. My parents' fault. They were fans once and should have destroyed their tapes if they didn't want me to find them. >And, well, it would be ok if I kind of > still popped by > once in a while, wouldn't it? When the mood takes me > and the > University PCrooms are open, that is? I mean, I > don't know how very > often that would be, but, you see, I * do* so miss > Theory Bay. It's certainly fine with me. Circumstances past control have mostly kept me off the list recently, though I will suddenly have a huge creative burst, like yesterday and today. :) Hope you enjoyed the latest offering in the great Crouch discussion. There's plenty more in the works from Elkins, btw, though it might be some time till we see it. > Try to imagine it with Cindy in > the background > going "Hey hey hey hey. . ." in a hollow chant. It > really adds a > certain something.) Yes, indeed. Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From catlady at wicca.net Sat Mar 29 23:00:57 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 23:00:57 -0000 Subject: SiriusInAzkaban/Ship/Wormtail/PoudLard/Petunia/GoFLeaks/LocnOfDurm'g/Melodram Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54535 Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: << And even if they don't know that he can transform, they are sure to keep an extra watchful eye on him since he managed to escape once before. I imagine they would station a guard who can actually see (unlike the Dementors) outside his cell to keep track of what he's doing. >> I think the guard with eyes couldn't be a human being, because I think a human being would go crazy in the presence of so many Dementors. Fred Waldrop wrote: << And admittedly, I want a Harry / Ginny ship & a Ron / Hermione ship, mainly because Ginny can give Harry what he wants and needs, a big ole family to go home to, the Weasleys >> That's why I like the Harry/Ron and Hermione/Ginny ships, altho' I admit that pairing Harry with Bill would achieve that same goal while leaving Ron available to the OC I invented for him, a sassy-mouth Hufflepuff girl with as much interest in Quidditch and as little interest in schoolwork as he has. Phyllis erised wrote: << still wondering why Wormtail is the only unmasked DE in the graveyard >> Maybe Wormtail had been SUCH an undercover agent the first time around that he never came to DE meetings, therefore didn't have the uniform. Cristina Angelo wrote: << In french, school and houses names are translated (Hogwarts becoming PoudLard, making me actually understand the joke...). >> The most obvious joke of "Hogwarts" is that it's Warthogs backwards. I suppose the reason why being Warthogs backwards is funny is because Hogs and Warts are both despised, and schools are usually named after something admired rather than something despised. Is "PoudLard" the same joke, "lardpoud" being "warthog"? J Happydogue wrote: << I don't know if this has been discussed before but could Petunia be a squib? >> Many people think that the Evans parents were a pair of Squibs, thus explaining their happiness at having a daughter be a witch. Some go on to suggest that the Evans parents were descended from Salazar Slytherin and James Potter was descended from Godric Gryffindor and Harry's special powers come from being the first combination of those bloodlines. I don't believe it. I think that JKR's whole point is to mock the belief in pedigrees by making the most powerful witches, Lily and Hermione, being Muggle-born with no wizarding pedigree At All. However, *I* would like to believe that Petunia was really born to a wizarding family, was Narcissa's sister, but was rejected by her parents for being a Squib, so they sent her to be adopted by a Muggle family (the Evanses) who for some reason were already in contact with the wizarding world. In this fable, Petunia was sent away when too young to consciously remember, but her dislike of magic was caused by her unconscious memory that magic had something to do with being thrown away by her first family. << What are the genetics involved in being one of the magical folk? Do squibs carry the gene but it isn't expressed? Is it a recessive gene so you must get one from both mother and father to be a witch? Can the gene be passed and the individual not know that they are carrying it until two unaware parents suddenly have a witch or wizard child? >> I have my own theories about the inheritance of Potterverse magic (which are long but there is other stuff after them): << From: "catlady_de_los_angeles" Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 7:13 pm Subject: Re: wizard education/birth dearth, baby boom/inheriting magic I agree with those who say that the wizarding world had a 'birth dearth' during the Voldemort Reign of Terror (which I like to call The Bad Years), but not that that caused Hogwarts to have fewer students born in those years. In fact, the classes born in those years might have been LARGER than usual This is because of a theory of inheritance of magic which I came up with in a thread on that subject. In my theory, the inheritance of magic is partly genetic and partly magical. I suggest that in general, there are a whole bunch of pairs of recessive genes that usually combine to make a person magical. How many of these pairs a person is double-recessive for, and which ones, would influence or control how strong their magic power is, and what forms of magic they are most talented at. But I also suggest that there is also a Magic that keeps the total number of wizarding people constant. When a wizard or witch dies, their magic goes to the next suitable child born in their area. Suitability would be a combination of the genes and of being surrounded by magic at the time. (A fetus in a witch's womb is the most possible surrounded by magic! So the child of a witch and a Muggle is almost as likely to be magic as the child of a witch and a wizard.) The longer the magic goes searching for a suitable host, the geographically wider an area it searches, and also it becomes less picky about suitabilty, such as choosing Muggle-born children who at least have SOME of the right genes, even tho' there is no magic around them at all. This theory also explains Squibs, as children of a wizard and a witch who were born at a moment when more wizarding babies were being born than wizarding folk were dying. THEREFORE, if two Squibs marry, their children would have the right genes, and if the Squib couple lived (unhappily and in poverty) in the wizarding world, their children would have been somewhat surrounded by magic, and therefore children of Squibs who remain in the wizarding world are likely to be non-Squib. Squibs who move to the Muggle world, make a life there and marry a Muggle, would probably have children who were Muggles, but with the genes to be very attractive to magic looking for a Muggle-born person to reside in. This theory also implies that there would be more Muggle-borns than usual during The Bad Years. That would be an ironic result of Voldemort's attempt to eliminate Muggle-borns! But, as you said, more wizarding folk than usual were dying during The Bad Years, because of all the murders, and fewer were being born than usual, because of parents reluctant to bring children into such a dreadful world. Thus, quite a number of witches and wizards died with no wizarding child being born at their death-time, so their magic went looking for a Muggle-born host. Thus, more 'Mudbloods'. That could explain why wizarding folk from Bill Weasley's age on down are more familiar with Muggle things than their parents are, and take it for granted to wear Muggle-style clothes: they learned it from their classmates. A further implication is that a post-Harry Potter Day wizarding baby boom may have resulted in an epidemic of Squibs. **** I think it is more likely that if magic were one gene-pair, that magic would be the RECESSIVE allele. Thus, any magic person must be double-recessive, thus any child of two magical parents would be magic (mm * mm = mm, as you know). The exception, non-magic children of two magic parents, Squibs, are extremely rare; to me, extremely rare MIGHT mean once in a generation. Rare enough that they could all be the result of a birth defect or mistaken paternity. Heterozygous people (Mm) would be Muggles, but two heterozygous people would have children in the famous pattern 25% MM, 25% Mm, 25% Mm, 25%mm = 75% Muggle and 25% Magic. That would account for there being quite a few magic children of Muggle parents, and some of them being siblings. *** Any purely genetic system would have some Muggle siblings of magic children. If magic was a dominant gene M, many wizards and witches would be Mm and if they had children with a Muggle mm, half the children would be Mm and half mm, so half the children would be Muggles. That includes Ksnidget's suggestion that the dominant gene M is one that was created by the number of repeating elements becoming greater each generation until first it becomes long enough that the phenotype is somewhat abnormal and then keeps getting longer, making the condition worse every generation. We can account for magic children being more than the predicted percentage by assuming non-genetic mechanisms ... maybe a non-magic embryo cannot implant in a magic womb, so only wizards but not witches could have non-magic children ... that would work with magic being either m or M; mm womb rejects mM embryo because of its alien M gene or Mm womb and MM womb reject mm embryo because it lacks M gene ... if magic is m, it could be that mm only marries Mm, never MM, become MM just 'smell wrong' to be attracted to, or m is partially expressed by Mm being more open-minded and whimsical and thus more compatible to magic person. >> Alex aesob wrote: << Does anyone know if there was any substantiated leaked info from GoF? How tight is security at Scholastic & Bloomsbury and their printers? (Probably better than that of a head-of-state's, eh?...) >> There were several authentic leaks during the final weeks running up to the release of GoF, probably arranged by Scholastic to stoke the hype. One was a little girl in a Washington DC suburb found a copy of GoF on the shelf at her local bookshop and bought it more than a week before the widely-known release date, and a newspaper printed the First Chapter allegedly shown to them by her. An unknown person pseudonymously joined HPfGU to post that she works at Scholastic, knows about the upcoming book, and will burst if she doesn't tell someone at least the hint that the title will be Harry Potter and the C-- of F--, please guess what that stands for. Soon she unsubbed. I believe that was a Scholastic PR person doing their PR job... Steve bboy_mn wrote: << It is likely that Drumstang is in an area of Russia that is north east of Finland (near the city of Murmansk, Russia). >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/6494 Pam Scruton's post of JKR's reading in Glasgow << Jo thinks that Durmstrang is in northern Scandanavia - the very north of Sweden or Norway >> Abigail wrote: << That's the problem with melodramas - no one appreciates the gravity of death. It's finality. People die of anger or love or shame, when in fact they should be clinging to life with their fingernails, because it is too precious to let go of. So many people in the Potterverse have fought death with every breath they had left, isn't it disgraceful, to embrace it in the name of honor and drama? >> That's the Voldemort position, the reason for his quest for immortality, valuing the continuation of one's own life more than honor and virtue. << Just look at the predictions people make about the coming books. Why, by the time we get to book 7, there are more dead characters then living ones. It just seems to belittle the importance of death. How shattering is it that a character dies if it happens every other week?" >> That's reality. Look at the Normandie landing. From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Sun Mar 30 04:14:54 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 23:14:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: FILK/SHIP: Dance of The Know-It-All Message-ID: <20030330041454.61174.qmail@web20413.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54536 Dance of the Know-It-All (to the tune of Veggietales' "Dance of the Cucumber") N.B. - Well, Alicia, you asked for it. I hope you like it. My attempt at filking two languages at a time. Any native Spanish speakers are directed to forgive me for my grasp of the language. I only have two years of formal Spanish, and my HP Spanish books to rely on here. Narrator: As part of the Yule Ball entertainment, Hermione will be performing the traditional Argentinian ballad, 'The Dance of the Know-It-All,' in its original Spanish. Ron will translate." Hermione: "Miren al sabelotodo" Ron: "Watch the know-it-all" Hermione: "miren como se mueve" Ron: "see how she moves" Hermione: "como un kneezle" Ron: "like a kneezle" Hermione: "tras una rata." Ron: "chasing a rat." Hermione: "Miren al sabelotodo" Ron: "Watch the know-it-all." Hermione: "sus suaves movimientos" Ron: "Oh, how smooth her motion" Hermione: "tal como Lockhart" Ron: "like Lockhart" Hermione: "con sus admiradoras." Ron: "with his admirers." Hermione: "Miren al sabelotodo" Ron: "Look at the know-it-all" Hermione: "los chicos bobos" Ron: "the foolish boys" Hermione: "envidian a su amigo" Ron: "envy their friend" Hermione: "como ella quieren bailar" Ron: "wishing to dance as she" Hermione: "Sabelotodo bailarin, Sabelotodo bailarin, sabelotodo bailarin" Ron: "Dancing know-it-all, dancing know-it-all, dancing know-it-all" Hermione: "Baila, baila, ya!" Ron: "Dance, dance, yeah!" Hermione: "Miren al pelirrojo" Ron: "Look at the red-head" Hermione: "no es triste?" Ron: "Isn't it sad?" Hermione: "El no puede bailar." Ron: "He can't dance." Hermione: "!Pobre pelirrojo!" Bob: "Poor red-head!" Hermione: "El deberia poder bailar" Ron: "He wishes he could dance" Hermione: "Con el sabelotodo" Bob: "with the know-it-all" Hermione: "libre y suavemente." Ron: "free and smooth." Hermione: "Pero el no puede danzar." Ron: "But he can't ... Okay! Stop the music! What do ya mean I can't dance with you? I don't want to dance with you! It's just that you're fraternizing with the enemy! Don't you know that Viktor Krum's Harry's enemy? Hermione: "No comprendo." Ron: "No comprendo? I'll show you 'No comprendo'!" Narrator: "This has been Silly Songs With Hermione. Tune in next time to hear Hermione sing ..." Hermione: "Ron is really angry! I think he's jealous of me! Well, you know what the solution is. Next time ask me first, and not as as last resort! ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From carrie525 at mybluelight.com Sun Mar 30 05:37:10 2003 From: carrie525 at mybluelight.com (Carrie S) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 21:37:10 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] re:GoFLeaks References: Message-ID: <01e301c2f67e$6afa5ca0$70c95142@net> No: HPFGUIDX 54537 Hi, Just wanted a clarification.... ----- Original Message ----- From: Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) Alex aesob wrote: << Does anyone know if there was any substantiated leaked info from GoF? How tight is security at Scholastic & Bloomsbury and their printers? (Probably better than that of a head-of-state's, eh?...) >> There were several authentic leaks during the final weeks running up to the release of GoF, probably arranged by Scholastic to stoke the hype. One was a little girl in a Washington DC suburb found a copy of GoF on the shelf at her local bookshop and bought it more than a week before the widely-known release date, and a newspaper printed the First Chapter allegedly shown to them by her. ******************** Carrie asks: But was this really the first chapter?? Does anyone remember? *********************************** Back to Catlady: An unknown person pseudonymously joined HPfGU to post that she works at Scholastic, knows about the upcoming book, and will burst if she doesn't tell someone at least the hint that the title will be Harry Potter and the C-- of F--, please guess what that stands for. Soon she unsubbed. I believe that was a Scholastic PR person doing their PR job... ******************************** Carrie feeling silly: I don't know, what does it stand for?? Is it um...not PG? Anyway, I guess this one didn't pan out. I remember only at the time there was supposed to be a "difficult death" that fans & parents were going to be upset over (per an interview I saw with her) and it turned out to be Cedric. Carrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From oppen at mycns.net Sun Mar 30 05:34:57 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 23:34:57 -0600 Subject: A Hagrid Thought Message-ID: <001501c2f67e$1a8485c0$be560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 54538 It occurs to me...could a lot of the giants' bad reputation in the Wizard World come, not so much from an evil nature, as from the combination of great strength and toughness combined with an utter lack of common sense? Many giants in folklore were portrayed not so much as evil monsters as big, well-meaning if approached right, and _very_ dumb. Being stupid is bad enough when you're normal-sized, but when you're twenty feet tall, incredibly strong and clumsy, and all but impervious to most things that can hurt normal-sized people, stupidity is terribly dangerous. To them. Let's face it, Hagrid is portrayed pretty clearly as not the sharpest knife in the Wizard World's intellectual drawer, and often displays a breathtaking lack of common sense, even as a young student at Hogwarts. Of all the pets he could have had, he got a giant spider that could easily have killed other students, and when wrongly accused of causing the death of another pupil, apparently defended himself so ineptly (he could have pointed out, among other things, that the body did not show evidence of having been attacked by a giant spider, and possibly forced Aragog himself to testify that he hadn't done it) that he was thrown out of Hogwarts, and only saved by Dumbledore's intervention on his behalf. Later on, he repeatedly shows a short temper (his sheer size and near-invulnerability should have been all he needed when dealing with the Dursleys, and slamming Karakoff, a full-fledged wizard, around was...a _tad_... ill-thought-out, shall we say) and very little common sense. Starting new pupils out on something as dangerous as a hippogriff, particularly with a known trouble-maker and his cronies in the class, was Not Smart, although there are arguments in its favor. Could Hagrid's giant ancestry be showing when he does things that almost anybody would say are badly thought-out, as with Norbert the Norwegian Ridgeback? From catlady at wicca.net Sun Mar 30 05:40:26 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 05:40:26 -0000 Subject: GoF Leaks In-Reply-To: <01e301c2f67e$6afa5ca0$70c95142@net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54539 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carrie S" wrote: > From: Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) >> One was a little girl in a Washington DC suburb found a copy of >> GoF on the shelf at her local bookshop and bought it more than a >> week before the widely-known release date, and a newspaper >> printed the First Chapter allegedly shown to them by her. > > But was this really the first chapter?? Does anyone remember? Yes, it was. > Back to Catlady: > >> An unknown person pseudonymously joined HPfGU to post that she >> works at Scholastic, knows about the upcoming book, and will burst >> if she doesn't tell someone at least the hint that the title will >> be Harry Potter and the C-- of F--, please guess what that stands >> for. Soon she unsubbed. I believe that was a Scholastic PR person >> doing their PR job... > I don't know, what does it stand for?? Is it um...not PG? Anyway, > I guess this one didn't pan out. There had long been a rumor that book 4 would be titled Harry Potter and the Doomspell Tournament. I believe that that was a true rumor, but JKR insisted on changing the title at the last moment, to make the rumor appear to have been wrong. I suspect that she chose the title AND THE CHALICE OF FIRE and that was what the above rumor monger was getting at, but having chosen the new title so quickly, it had not been vetted throughly, and she had to quickly change it again, to GOBLET OF FIRE, when she discovered that The Flaming Chalice is the logo of the Unitarian Universalist Association (a religion). From firoza10 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 30 06:53:45 2003 From: firoza10 at yahoo.com (firoza10) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 06:53:45 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Why I Hate H/G - Attn: KEITH-Bring on the Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54540 Like other Ginny fans, I > proudly and boldly exclaim a phrase coined by Firoza: > > "BRING ON THE GINNY!" > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.net/phillyarticle.shtml > > ~Lilac~ As much as I would like to take credit for that phrase, it was actually Arabella who coined it, not me :). Whether Ginny's 'more of a role' means she'll betray Harry, die, fall off a cliff, drown in the lake, become buddy buddy with the Trio, or even *gasp* become Harry's "soulmate" eventually , is up to JKR. Woohoo! 82 more days until OotP, so: "BRING ON THE GINNY!" Firoza From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sun Mar 30 07:08:54 2003 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 23:08:54 -0800 Subject: HP and the UU Chalice (was: GoF Leaks) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94115772694.20030329230854@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54541 Saturday, March 29, 2003, 9:40:26 PM, Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) wrote: CRPW> ... she had to quickly change it CRPW> again, to GOBLET OF FIRE, when she discovered that The Flaming CRPW> Chalice is the logo of the Unitarian Universalist Association (a CRPW> religion). I'm a Unitarian Universalist, and just speaking for myself, I have to admit I wouldn't have been offended if they had named it _Harry Potter and the Chalice of Flame_ -- in fact I would have been flattered. (Hey! Dumbledore is a UU!) But then, we're a faith of tolerance. (*By definition*, there could never be any such thing as a UU Fundamentalist!) -- Dave From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Sun Mar 30 05:55:16 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 05:55:16 -0000 Subject: Why Harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54542 Since rereading SS last week, I've been haunted by the mystery of Harry's true meaning to Voldemort. Voldemort tells Harry that he was not intending to kill Lily; that H was the only true target of the attack that night. When H presses Dumbledore, he refuses to tell him until he is "older" and "ready".(SS pp. 298-9). Now, why was *Harry* the target at the tender age of fifteen months old? I have a couple of theories, but I would be glad to entertain others. Was H some sort of prophesied answer to the dark power of V? Could V have wanted him out of the way long before H got a chance to grow up? We are constantly reminded in canon how much more powerful a "fully-grown wizard" is compared to one still in his youth. Perhaps V feared a future in which H were able to defeat him. It would certainly explain all the seeming coincidences - their wands, Parseltongue, etc. and give creedence to my own opinion that H is *foreordained* to oppose V. Another, somewhat less plausible theory is that V held some sort of romantic feeling for Lily Potter. Perhaps he originally wished to subvert her to his will, although killing her child would be a foolish way to go about that. One who sought only to dominate, however, may not have been above such an act. Whatever the reasoning behind the attack, it is clear that D knows more than he has told H, and therefore more than we do. How is it he knows so much about it when he (supposedly) wasn't even there? Forgive me if this topic has already been adressed, but I wasn't sure how to find it. "imamommy" From drdara at yahoo.com Sun Mar 30 02:27:20 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 18:27:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP Why I Hate H/G Attn: Lilac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030330022720.13659.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54543 I think the crush Ginny had on Harry is more than a crush now. Harry saved Ginny's life. Plus he never said anything mean to her about being the one that was doing all the dirty work for Tom, and he didn't go telling everyone around the school that it was all Ginny's fault that everything happened. He never said one bad word to her or about her to anyone else about the whole affair. danielle __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From drdara at yahoo.com Sun Mar 30 02:19:24 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 18:19:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lucius Malfoy and St. Mungos. In-Reply-To: <017f01c2f5cd$119874a0$2f560043@hppav> Message-ID: <20030330021924.25290.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54544 Malfoy could also be donating as a way to keep himself in the good graces of the wizarding world. This way he could prove to those who doubt his loyalty that he is a good wizard who would never of supported Lord Voldemort. A fact in which we know isn't true because he is a very loyal DE, but to those that are gullible enough to believe that he was underneath a spell this would just prove it to him. Plus maybe the wizards pay taxes and this is just tax deductible. danielle __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Sat Mar 29 19:42:17 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 14:42:17 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP Why I Hate H/G Attn: Lilac References: <000e01c2f5c3$1b1fec60$140110ac@e97z2grx09q8y3k> Message-ID: <025801c2f62b$4e9f8920$c600a8c0@rainbow> No: HPFGUIDX 54545 Something you seem to keep forgetting is Ginny's age. She is 10 years old when she first hears about the famous Harry Potter...and hell, what 10 year old girl would NOT want to meet a celebrity?? And what 11 year old girl would NOT get a crush on him after meeting him in person? It's perfectly normal...it says nothing negative about her character. And while 90% of her feelings towards Harry right now may be celebrity-worship, i feel sure that as she grows older, it will turn into more. As we all know, there are many wonderful things about Harry for her to fall in love with. And as she matures and sees those things in him, i believe she will have a much deeper appreciation for him. While i don't want them to "get together" at this point in the series, i'd be all for it down the road. ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From heidit at netbox.com Sun Mar 30 09:42:21 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 04:42:21 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: re:GoF Leaks Message-ID: <1de.5a0e909.2bb815fd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54546 In a message dated 3/30/2003 12:40:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, catlady at wicca.net writes: > There had long been a rumor that book 4 would be titled Harry Potter > and the Doomspell Tournament. It was. I have a promotional standee from Spring, 2000, that was given to my son, Harry, by the nice person at our local Barnes & Noble which says "Doomspell Tournament" and has the GoF US Cover Art on it. It will be joining me at Nimbus - 2003, either in the Gallery or the Fandom History presentation. Heidi Tandy **Ask me about NIMBUS - 2003 - the first international Harry Potter symposium** http://www.hp2003.org [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shufan90 at sbcglobal.net Sun Mar 30 08:59:53 2003 From: shufan90 at sbcglobal.net (shufan) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 00:59:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: OotP Book Covers and the Magical Room Message-ID: <20030330085953.23616.qmail@web80310.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54547 After looking at the American version of the bookcover everyday, since I have saved on the desktop of my computer, a thought came to me. The Scholastic cover and the Bloosbury adult cover both have circular rooms on them. JKR has stated that CoS is full of clues, one of the rooms that is mentioned in that book is Dumbledore's office, a circular room. The office contains portraits of old headmasters and headmistresses. What if the magical room on the cover is Dumbledore's office and the doors pictued opening on the American cover are not doors but the portraits swinging open to reveal other areas of the castle or entrances to time portals, the years represented by that particular headmaster or headmistress? The entrance to Griffendor tower is hidden behind a portrait, what if other portraits in the castle hide other areas? The similarity of the circular rooms on the covers is intriguing to me. Counting the days until my literary vacation. My apolgies if this has been covered before. jennifer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Mar 30 10:05:32 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 10:05:32 -0000 Subject: Why Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54548 > "imamommy": > Since rereading SS last week, I've been haunted by the mystery of > Harry's true meaning to Voldemort. Voldemort tells Harry that he was > not intending to kill Lily; that H was the only true target of the > attack that night. When H presses Dumbledore, he refuses to tell > him until he is "older" and "ready".(SS pp. 298-9). Now, why was > *Harry* the target at the tender age of fifteen months old? I have a > couple of theories, but I would be glad to entertain others. > > Was H some sort of prophesied answer to the dark power of V? I think that Harry *was* prophesied to "put an end to the power of the Dark Lord" or the "one who'd have Voldemort's power" or "defeat the Dark Lord" or whatever. Then, yes - I do understand that Voldemort - in attempt to prevent such a prophecy from coming true - fulfills it. I've read many stories where an attempt to prevent a prophecy actually helps it's fulfill. Because that's the way of a *magical* prediction: it *will* happen, and the one who hears/sees it *will* aid it's coming, one way or another. Trelawney's second prediction where a chained servant gets free, returns to his master and helps the Dark Lord to rise again - note how Ron&Harry hear this; then, later, it is *them* who act to fulfill it (on Pettigrew, who owes Harry a life-debt), even as it's unplanned. Dumbledore, on hearing of this prophecy- he thinks of how to interact so that in Voldemort's return he has an advantage. Dumbledore knows well that resisting a magical prediction is futile. Now then, as to why Voldemort wanted *Harry's* blood. For a one thing, the blood had to be *forcibly* taken. Dumbledore might give the blood freely (in which case the potion doesn't work). Harry's blood - oh, Harry *would* resist. And, capturing a child is way easier than capturing an adult; only child Voldemort would consider as his enemy, is Harry. I think that the flesh-blood thing *will* have something extra because Pettigrew owes his life to Harry, but Voldemort doesn't know of that - yet. -- Finwitch From t.forch at mail.dk Sun Mar 30 10:07:23 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 12:07:23 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lucius Malfoy and St. Mungos. In-Reply-To: <20030330021924.25290.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com> References: <017f01c2f5cd$119874a0$2f560043@hppav> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030330120225.00cdbef0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54549 At 18:19 29-03-03 -0800, danielle dassero wrote: >Malfoy could also be donating as a way to keep himself >in the good graces of the wizarding world. No doubt Lucius Malfoy make donations to keep up appearances (just see GoF ch. 36 where Fudge dismisses any accusations against Malfoy with a "A very old family - donations to excellent causes"), but the interesting question is how he chooses the causes to which he makes his donations - does he have any ulterior motives for donating to St. Mungo's instead of any of a number of other worthy causes? And what about Celestina Warbeck, who apparently also supports the hospital - is she an accomplice of Malfoy's ? Troels From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Mar 30 10:20:45 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 10:20:45 -0000 Subject: The Longbottoms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54550 > Audrey: > > Or it could be that the Longbottoms know who *didn't* torture them, > perhaps the fact that the son of a very highly placed Ministry > official had nothing to do with it at all. Who is more likely to > believe Lucius' claims that he had not been a willing Death Eater, > Crouch Sr. or Fudge? Even Dumbledore said he wasn't positive about > Barty Jr.'s guilt when Harry asked him about it after seeing the > trial in the pensieve. I could see Lucius keeping the Longbottoms > incapacitated by way of payoffs to St. Mungo's in order to keep Fudge > in power whether Lucius was actually involved in their torture or > not. That could well be the case! And that- that might put an end to Fudge, raise suspicion whether anyone *else* Crouch Sr. sent to prison was in fact innocent (like Sirius). Then, there *could* be a summoning-spell Harry could use on Pettigrew (because of the life- debt) - maybe even _accio_ would work (handy spell to get what you need, isn't it). Hmm.. Neville banished Flitwick, but couldn't summon anything... Could it be that accio doesn't work on people unless they owe you a life-debt? So Harry *could* summon Peter Pettigrew and Ginny Weasley (for practising the spell?) as well as Justin F-F (to show him beyond doubt that Harry *saved* his life from that snake in the Dualing Club...) Of course, it's likely to take the book's worth for Harry to figure all that out and act on it... Sirius may well be freed in the end of it... (at least I hope he will be). -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Mar 30 10:46:29 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 10:46:29 -0000 Subject: The Old Crowd In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54551 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "corinthum" wrote: > Overall, I think this is one of those situations where even a > fair-minded person like Dumbledore would be a bit exclusive. Not only > for the safety and success of his team, but to prevent the unnecessary > injury and possible death of people he knew could not help. Well, one thing we know of the members Albus Dumbledore, Sirius Black and Remus Lupin, one thing that sets them apart from all other wizards, is that they speak Voldemort's name without fear. That, and the fact that they choose to stand up against Voldemort even alone. To die rather than betray his friends (we know Sirius&Remus would) - that they'd fight anyway. It's safer included than excluded. -- Finwitch From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Sun Mar 30 13:11:20 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 13:11:20 -0000 Subject: SHIP Why I Hate H/G Attn: Lilac In-Reply-To: <025801c2f62b$4e9f8920$c600a8c0@rainbow> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54552 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Katy Cartee" wrote: > Something you seem to keep forgetting is Ginny's age. She is 10 years old when she first hears about the famous Harry Potter...and hell, what 10 year old girl would NOT want to meet a celebrity?? And what 11 year old girl would NOT get a crush on him after meeting him in person? It's perfectly normal...it says nothing negative about her character. > Actually, she's not 10 years old when she first hears about Harry Potter. Harry Potter is not a 'celebrity' he is a 'Saviour' in her world. He's 'The Boy Who Lived who was thought to have *destroyed* Voldemort - the most evil wizard of the time. There was much celebrating and whoop-di-dooing when it happened. Surely songs and stories were written about it. It's very likely that she grew up (0- 10) hearing about Hero!Harry. Perhaps her favourite bedtime story was 'Harry's House In The Hollow'. *That* is what she is affected by when she first *meets* Harry. I don't see how her adulation of Harry will be easily abate as she's constantly 'bombarded' with Harry's feats of daring do (via her brother - Harry's best friend) not to mention his becoming her *personal* hero in her first year at Hogwarts > And while 90% of her feelings towards Harry right now may be celebrity-worship, i feel sure that as she grows older, it will turn into more. As we all know, there are many wonderful things about Harry for her to fall in love with. And as she matures and sees those things in him, i believe she will have a much deeper appreciation for him. > If Harry is already her 'hero' he can do no wrong. It doesn't matter that he *has* good qualities as she'll always make them good. Neville has good qualities too, doesn't he? Perhaps as she gets older and matures she'll realise that unimportant and derided Neville has 'many wonderful things to fall in love with' though he may not be the 'Boy Who Lived' Erica :) From naama_gat at hotmail.com Sun Mar 30 13:30:05 2003 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 13:30:05 -0000 Subject: SHIP Why I Hate H/G Attn: Lilac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54553 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Erica" wrote: > > I don't see how her adulation of Harry will be easily abate as she's > constantly 'bombarded' with Harry's feats of daring do (via her > brother - Harry's best friend) not to mention his becoming her > *personal* hero in her first year at Hogwarts Harry is viewed as a hero and treated as a celebrity by Fred, George and Ron when they first meet. Are you suggesting that they still treat him in the same way, four years later? And if not, why is it impossible for Ginny, who is as familiar with Harry by now as Fred and George are (they live in the same House and Harry spends much of his vacation at her home), to move from hero worship to genuinely liking him? Naama From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Sun Mar 30 14:23:24 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 14:23:24 -0000 Subject: SHIP Why I Hate H/G Attn: Lilac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54554 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "naamagatus" wrote: > > Harry is viewed as a hero and treated as a celebrity by Fred, George > and Ron when they first meet. Are you suggesting that they still > treat him in the same way, four years later? And if not, why is it > impossible for Ginny, who is as familiar with Harry by now as Fred > and George are (they live in the same House and Harry spends much of > his vacation at her home), to move from hero worship to genuinely > liking him? > > Because there is an element of romantic infatuation with Ginny and not (I'm assuming) with Fred, George and Ron. I'd guess that there is an element of 'what's so special about him'/competition with males who are Harry's peers. F, G and R don't strike me as being as 'gob smacked' as Ginny (that's just IMHO) How does one tell that Ginny's affection for Harry is no longer founded in 'heroic Harry' but in the 'dark haired shrimp wearing glasses'? The absense of elbows in butter? the decrease of blush frequency/intensity? Did the third year girl who asked Harry to the Ball have buttery elbows and flushed cheeks? I own that (rightly or wrongly) part of the reason that I dislike H/G is that it smacks too much of the Cinderella complext. "Where is my knight, in armour bright,To save me from this desperate plight?" Give me 'The Paper Bag Princess' over Cinderella anyday. Erica From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Sun Mar 30 15:53:56 2003 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 15:53:56 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Why I Hate H/G [To Whom It May Concern] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54555 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Erica" wrote: > I own that (rightly or wrongly) part of the reason that I dislike H/G > is that it smacks too much of the Cinderella complext. "Where is my > knight, in armour bright,To save me from this desperate plight?" > Give me 'The Paper Bag Princess' over Cinderella anyday. > > Erica Oh, how I love that story! _The Paperbag Princess_ by Robert Munsch, Annick Press LTD., Toronto, CA ISBN 0-920236-16-2 PP 21-23 ******* "[Prince Ronald] looked at her and said, "Elizabeth, you are a mess! You smell like ashes, your hair is all tangled and you are wearing a dirty old paper bag. Come back when you are dressed like a real princess." "Ronald," said Elizabeth, "your clothes are really pretty and your hair is very neat. You look like a real prince, but you are a bum." They didn't get married after all. ******* Hmmm...something about those two pages seems awfully familiar... ******USHC GOF PP 399-400****** "We're the only ones left who haven't got anyone -- well, except Neville. Hey -- guess who he asked? Hermione!" "What?" said Harry, completely distracted my this startling news. "Yeah, I know!" said Ron, some of the color coming back into his face as he started to laugh. "He told me right after Potions! Said she's always been really nice, helping him out with work and stuff -- but she told him she was already going with someone. Ha! As if! She just didn't want to go with Neville...I mean, who would?" "Don't!" said Ginny, annoyed. "Don't laugh -- " Just then Hermione climbed in through the portrait hole. "Why weren't you two at dinner?" she said, coming over to join them. "Because -- oh, shut up laughing, you two -- because they've both just been turned down by girls they asked to the ball!" said Ginny. That shut Harry and Ron up. *********** And they didn't go to the ball after all (since she was already asked by Neville). Give the poor girl some slack...she's a Weasley, after all. She'll come off okay in the end. She's a survivor! Okay, who am I kidding...I know that the H/H position needs to cast doubt upon Ginny as a potential love interest, so her name will continue to be dragged through the mud until JKR provides us with much-needed Ginny page time. There's so little about her, it's really all speculation and biased interpretation until the real goods are delivered. ~Lilac, who loves children's picture books almost as much as HP From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Mar 30 16:02:24 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 30 Mar 2003 16:02:24 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1049040144.31.19670.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54556 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, March 30, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CST (GMT-06:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Sun Mar 30 16:40:53 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 16:40:53 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Why I Hate H/G [To Whom It May Concern] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54557 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lilac" wrote: > > And they didn't go to the ball after all (since she was already > asked by Neville). > > Give the poor girl some slack...she's a Weasley, after all. She'll > come off okay in the end. She's a survivor! > > Okay, who am I kidding...I know that the H/H position needs to cast > doubt upon Ginny as a potential love interest, so her name will > continue to be dragged through the mud until JKR provides us with > much-needed Ginny page time. There's so little about her, it's > really all speculation and biased interpretation until the real > goods are delivered. > > ~Lilac, who loves children's picture books almost as much as HP Much of the H/G position deponds upon 'hanging a star' on JKR providing 'much-needed Ginny page time'. Though we know that 'Ginny plays more of a role' in the next book there is no way of knowing what that implies. JKR also said something to the effect that someone we cared about was going to die in GoF which set off much speculation about *who* though I don't think that many people guessed Cedric. The last time she had 'more of a role' we were taken down into the CoS, perhaps her role in the next book is related to that? Erica - favourite children's book--- 'There's a Mouse In My House' ... I guess it came in from the cold. My mother was hysterical and *she's* 36 years old ... (committed to memory after upteen story time/bed times) :D From rvotaw at i-55.com Sun Mar 30 16:41:47 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 10:41:47 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?) References: Message-ID: <00a901c2f6db$4cc0a700$06a1cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 54558 Finwitch wrote: > I think that Harry *was* prophesied to "put an end to the power of > the Dark Lord" or the "one who'd have Voldemort's power" or "defeat > the Dark Lord" or whatever. Then, yes - I do understand that > Voldemort - in attempt to prevent such a prophecy from coming true - > fulfills it. I've read many stories where an attempt to prevent a > prophecy actually helps it's fulfill. Because that's the way of a > *magical* prediction: it *will* happen, and the one who hears/sees it > *will* aid it's coming, one way or another. First of all, I realize the prophecy thing isn't proven in canon yet, but I'll operate under the assumption that theory is correct for the remainder of this message. I agree that Voldemort may have inadvertantly helped fulfill the prophecy in an attempt to prevent it. However, I can't understand where the prophecy came from. Or who, more like. Unless I've missed someone, the only one I've heard connected to the prophecy is Trelawney. I believe this is because she prophecied the rise of Voldemort the second time. But Dumbledore clearly stated that it would bring her total of true prophecies to two. Which means the first was just that. The first. Why would Voldemort believe someone's prophecy who'd never prophecied anything before that had actually happened? That's the part I don't understand. If anyone can attempt to clear it up or has other ideas about who prophecied the first fall of Voldemort, I'd love to hear it. I've got my own theory, but I don't think anyone but me believes it anyway. :) Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 30 18:05:15 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 19:05:15 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magical genetics References: <1049017351.3911.7782.m4@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001401c2f6e6$ed926320$3f7c0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 54559 Catlady wrote: >But I also suggest that there is also a Magic that keeps the total >number of wizarding people constant. When a wizard or witch dies, >their magic goes to the next suitable child born in their area. (much snippage of some excellent theory...) The only point that I'd wonder about is whether the mechanism you suggest would keep wizardly _numbers_ constant or the wizard:muggle _ratio_ constant. If it was the former, then the number of magical folk would be fixed for ever at the point that it was at a _very_ early stage. This might not work when considered in conjunction with canon (eg the attendance at the World Cup final. When would it have started? When Homo Sapiens came into existence? If later, then how did it start? So I think the second option is closer to what you are arguing for. This would be that there would be a constant ratio (for example 1:60, 1:100, or what ever you think appropriate) so that as the muggle population rises, so does the wizard population. Now this in turn has some interesting implications. There would also need to be some sort of geographical regulator to make sure that depredations (of the Voldemort sort) are made up for in the same area that they took place (or reasonably near) otherwise it would take far longer for the population to recover (if V kills 50 people in London, then if the 50 replacements are born equally distributed across the globe, then the London population stays down for a much longer period!) Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From tammy at mauswerks.net Sun Mar 30 17:45:55 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 12:45:55 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Longbottems (was OoP Book Covers also The certian room) In-Reply-To: <20030328230835.16709.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com> References: <43716000B5B3D6119934006097E4668C20E5EC@djmail.deckerjones.com> Message-ID: <3E86E703.15499.63F2895@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 54560 On 28 Mar 2003 at 15:08, danielle dassero wrote: > > The only problem with that reasoning is that even if > the Longbottoms knew anything, how would anyone > believe them as they are insane. If the Malfoys were > paying to keep everything under wraps they would end > up paying someone to kill them. Besides Lord Voldemort > was almost dead before the Longbottoms went insane so > what could they know. > > Danielle I think I understand what the idea is of 'are the Longbottoms Secret-Keepers for Voldemort/DEs', but perhaps it needs to be asked a little more clearly. The way I understand the question that someone (sorry, I don't know who it was now) asked is this: Is it possible that Malfoy made the donation to St. Mungo's in order to ensure some 'care' for the Longbottoms, BECAUSE, after the LBs had been taken and tortured and driven insane, they were THEN forced to become Secret- Keepers for some DEs (obviously it would have been against their will had they been sane), and now that the LBs are at St. Mungo's, protecting the secret means keeping them alive and insane? I think they'd HAVE to be kept insane, if they'd been unwillingly Fidelias'd by Voldemort's followers, since, if they were to regain their minds, they'd spill the secret. But perhaps there ARE secrets that the DEs need kept that cannot be risked in books or vaults. I also think that, if this is the case, we may very well have to wait past OotP to find out the truth about the LBs. BTW, I'm new here, but I've been lurking for some time now, and I've done my required reading (some time ago now), and I've just ordered my own copies of all five books (Wheee!) so I won't have to rely on memory or the library's copies any more. :) Tammy From d_lea25 at yahoo.ca Sun Mar 30 18:49:21 2003 From: d_lea25 at yahoo.ca (Lea) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 13:49:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Longbottems (was OoP Book Covers also The certian room) In-Reply-To: <3E86E703.15499.63F2895@localhost> Message-ID: <20030330184921.62679.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54561 Tammy wrote: >The way I understand the question that someone (sorry, I >don't know who it was >now) asked is this: Is it possible that Malfoy made the >donation to St. Mungo's in >order to ensure some 'care' for the Longbottoms, BECAUSE, >after the LBs had been >taken and tortured and driven insane, they were THEN forced >to become Secret- >Keepers for some DEs (obviously it would have been against >their will had they >been sane), and now that the LBs are at St. Mungo's, >protecting the secret means >keeping them alive and insane? And me: Which begs the question - is it possible to become a Secret Keeper if you are insane? Do you really need a "mind" in order to receive/keep a secret? Lea (who believes that the mind is the first thing to go when you become insane) --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Sun Mar 30 19:02:13 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 19:02:13 -0000 Subject: Childish Crush vs More Mature Crush (was: Why I hate H/G) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54562 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Erica" wrote: > How does one tell that Ginny's affection for Harry is no longer > founded in 'heroic Harry' but in the 'dark haired shrimp wearing > glasses'? The absense of elbows in butter? the decrease of blush > frequency/intensity? Did the third year girl who asked Harry to > the Ball have buttery elbows and flushed cheeks? It seems to me that the girls whom Harry didn't even know who asked him to the Ball were not having a crush on him, not having hopes of a relationship with the Triwizard Champion, but simply wanted to be seen Opening the Ball. I mean, they never flocked after him like they did after Krum, apparently never tried to strike up a conversation with him... From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Sun Mar 30 19:23:18 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 19:23:18 -0000 Subject: Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?) In-Reply-To: <00a901c2f6db$4cc0a700$06a1cdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54563 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > If anyone can attempt to clear it up or has other ideas about who prophecied the first fall of Voldemort, I'd love to hear it. I've got my own theory, but I don't think anyone but me believes it anyway. :) > > Richelle > > Perhaps the prophecy didn't specify Harry defeating Voldemort but the 'heir of Gryffindor' defeating the 'heir of Slytherin'. If Voldemort is aware that he is Slytherin's heir (last?) and comes to find out that the Potter line is descendent from Gryffindor then perhaps he would make a point of anihilating all Potter's everywhere. This would explain why Harry has no 'Potter' relatives and why Voldemort was more interesting in killing James and Harry but not Lily. Erica From abigailnus at yahoo.com Sun Mar 30 19:43:00 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 19:43:00 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Failure, Dumbledore, Death and Hagrid vs. Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54564 After some deliberations, the impromptu slumber party in Melody's room has decided to move to the Royal George. Captain Cindy was originally dead set against the move, insisting that she was quite comfortable on the large portion she had staked out on Melody's soft, four-poster bed, but the ensuing argument was cut short by some low rumblings from further down the hall. Once Melody identified them as the nocturnal growling of Grey Wolf, and added the observation that Grey really valued his beauty sleep, the decision to switch venue was unanimously and enthusiastically approved. Abigail and Derannimer have hung back from the main group, where Melody, who retrieved her sword from under the stairs before leaving, is now debating its merits in comparison to Captain Cindy's Big Paddle. From yet another one of her bottomless pockets, Abigail has produced yet another bag of marshmallows, which Derannimer is munching on half-heartedly. "It's really not the same if they're not toasted." She complains. "Anyway, what was I saying? Oh yeah, I can't believe you thought I wanted Harry to fail out of a desire for Hurt-Comfort. I don't crush on Harry! I'm a Bent SnapeFan!" Abigail glances surreptitiously ahead, but Cindy is busy displaying the Big Paddle's strength by using it to fell small trees. "Actually, so am I." She admits sheepishly. "But you have to admit that some of the failure scenarios that were being considered before I showed up had a distinct whiff of Hurt-Comfort. Harry just fails to save someone's life. Harry arrives too late to save someone's life but not too late to watch that person being tortured/writhing in the final throes of a painful death. Just imagine Harry's pain! Consider how hard that would hit him!" "I had nothing to do with those suggestions." Derannimer responds huffily. "As you would know if you could hear well enough to tell the difference between the words 'emotion' and 'shlock'." "Yeah, I'm not quite sure how I made that mistake." Says Abigail. "After all, you were the one who originally argued against Cindy's Dead!Hermione theory. Must have been all that snoring. But what were you saying about the real reason that you want Harry to fail?" "Well," Derannimer begins, "I want Harry to fail for the same reason I want Dumbledore to make a stupid mistake, and not be Omniscient!Dumbledore. For the same reason I want Voldemort to be occasionally half-way competent. And it's not because I'm a Death Eater. I want the fight against Voldemort to be *hard.* And I want the good guys to be fallible. I *hate* it when the good guys never do anything wrong or stupid. It's so *simplistic.*" "I agree" Abigail nods. "But are you sure that's what's happening in the books? Because it seems to me that the good guys have screwed up well and royally more then once over the last 15 years. First, there's Sirius 'why don't you be the Secret Keeper, Peter?' Black, who is not a little bit responsible for the Potters' deaths." "That wasn't Sirius' fault!" Derannimer insists. "Peter tricked him!" "We're talking about failure, aren't we?" Abigail responds. "I'd call not realizing that your best friend turned traitor more then a year ago a pretty big failure. And Lupin and Dumbledore share the blame for it. Moving ahead to Harry's days. We've got Sirius, Lupin and Snape, falling over each other to see who can screw up the situation the worst in PoA. If Sirius hadn't behaved so foolishly and come to Dumbledore directly after escaping from Azkaban Scabbers might have been immediately apprehended, and the same thing might have happened if Lupin had come clean and/or delivered the Maurauder's Map to Dumbledore when he found it in Harry's possession. And who can tell how differently the Shrieking Shack might have gone down if Snape had been willing to listen to reason? At best, there would have been another person to detain Peter when Lupin transformed, and something tells me that *Snape* wouldn't have forgotten about Lupin's not having taken his potion." "You're making all these arguments under the assumption that MD is untrue." Derannimer notes. "Well, of course..." Abigail begins loudly, and then notices that Derannimer is gesturing urgently towards the group ahead of them. Melody has her MDDT sword out. It glints in the moonlight, and makes a silvery sound as it cuts through the air. Abigail lowers her voice. "Of course I am, but even if we were to ignore the SS as a prime example of failure on the part of all three men, as well as the supposedly omniscient Dumbledore, there's just no excusing what happens after it. Not even MD argues that Snape's revelation of Lupin's being a werewolf is part of Dumbledore's overreaching plan - and am I the only one wondering if we're going to see any remorse about that move on Snape's part in the future?" "You think Snape will care that he hurt Lupin?" Derannimer asks, incredulous. "I may be a Bent Snape!Fan, but even I'm not that delusional." "Neither am I." Abigail agrees, smiling. "But I do believe that Snape cares about his students. Getting Lupin fired opened up the DADA slot, which brings us to the supposedly infallible Dumbledore's most recent, most glorious, screw-up." "Moody." Derannimer intones. "Moody." Abigail repeats. "Alastor Moody. Dumbledore's good friend Alastor 'he's drinking from a hip flask so it must be the right guy' Moody. The man Dumbledore brought in because he was so worried that something big was going to go down with Voldemort, and wanted his students protected by the best man there was. Your *perfect* Dumbledore literally put the fox in charge of the chicken coop. If he hadn't done this, or if Snape had kept his big mouth shut and not freed up the position in the first place, Voldemort might not be back, and Cedric Diggory might not be dead." Abigail shakes her head in disgust. "Still think the good guys have it too easy?" For a few minutes, Abigail and Derannimer walk in silence. They pass the ivy-covered walls of the Canon Museum and the adjacent Canon College. Halfway across the quad, the group stops. Up ahead, Melody procures a white silk handkerchief and begins displaying it theatrically to Cindy and the rest of the group. Abigail and Derannimer move a ways back so as not to disturb. "I will say this for your 'infallible good guys' world view." Says Abigail thoughtfully. "It is the immediate reading. The narrative never admonishes Sirius or Lupin, at best they do it themselves. And as for Dumbledore, as far as the narrative is concerned, he walks on water." "Well, the narrative is from Harry's point of view." Derannimer points out. "And his hero worship needs to be shaken up a bit. Dumbledore needs to fail. Especially Dumbledore, in my opinion." Abigail glances at the group huddled around Melody. Mel has just thrown the handkerchief in the air, and is making swift and precise cuts in the air. Swish. Swish. All eyes are on her. "Can I tell you a secret?" Abigail whispers. "I agree completely. In fact, I'm beginning to find Dumbledore as he's been presented over the last four books... boring." Swish. A deathly silence descends. Melody's sword lowers, forgotten. All eyes, including Derannimer's, are on Abigail. Slowly, and completely unheeded, the fragments of the white silk handkerchief float to the ground. It takes them quite a while to descend, and no one speaks until they do. Finally, Captain Cindy steps forward. Her hands are gripping the Big Paddle so hard that her knuckles have turned white. She is smiling a very strange smile that doesn't quite reach her eyes. "Explain." She says quietly and with obvious effort. Abigail takes a deep breath. And another one. Then she says. "Do you guys remember the last time I argued against MD? During the big party in the Pink Flamingo? Melody and I started talking about Dishwasher!Dumbledore." "And you called him a liar." Melody says quietly. "That's not *exactly* what I said." Abigail answers, glancing nervously at the sword in Melody's hand, perhaps not as forgotten as she first assumed. "I said that D!D presents a very different face to the world than the person he really is. Dumbledore shows us a bumbling, saintly yet playfully shrewd old man, but D!D is so much more. He's cunning, and not a little bit vicious. And do you know what I realized as I described him?" Abigail's eyes begin to glow. "I realized that for the very first time, I saw Dumbledore as an interesting character. And that, I might point out, was the closest I ever came to buying MD as a theory." "Abigail!" Cries Derannimer, shocked. "How could you!" "Oh, I probably wouldn't have done it in the end." Abigail says. "But I was briefly tempted. Not that it matters. You guys," she gestures at Melody, "kept insisting on having your cake and eating it too. No one wanted to talk to me about Morally-Duplicit!Dumbledore, except to deny that he existed. But the damage was done. I like Dumbledore as much as the next guy. I think he's a great mentor and father figure to Harry. I'm glad that he's always around to restore order whenever Harry's life threatens to get too chaotic. Certainly I enjoy his comical moments and his gentle disrespect for authority. But would I follow him into battle? Hell, no. Maybe the coming books will prove me wrong. Certainly Harry's reaction to Dumbledore at the end of GoF suggests that there's more to him than we've seen thus far. I really hope so. I don't know how much more of Nitwit-Oddment-Blubber-Tweak!Dumbledore I can take." This seems to satisfy the group for now, but they insist on splitting Abigail and Derannimer up during the remainder of the walk to the Royal George, as though afraid of more heretical talk bubbling up between the two of them. George the barman is waiting, bleary-eyed, at the door, and ushers the group into a private room. There's a roaring fire, very welcome after the brisk TBAY night. George leaves and quickly returns with a tray of drinks. Abigail feels rather badly in need on one, and downs a shot of Brandy. "Getting back to what you were saying before your little... outburst." Derannimer says delicately. "You may be right when you say that the good guys as a group have had some major screw-ups, but none of them are by Harry. And since Harry is the chief good guy--he's the *hero,* for Pete's sake--that means that *he* is going to have to fail. He is going to have to screw up big time." "Harry may be the hero, but he's not the chief good guy." Abigail counters. "Not yet, anyway. As the MDDT is fond of saying, Harry has no idea that he's a character in a book called 'Harry Potter and...'. As far as he's concerned, he's an average kid with an above-average allotment of trouble. He doesn't know, as we, and probably Dumbledore and Voldemort know, that he's destined to win the battle against evil. He's just getting by as best he can. What was that you said before about Harry's cycle of failure and success, Pippin?" Pippin, still lamenting her inability to accept a Smore, returns from her revery. "Oh? I said that in every book, Harry begins by perceiving himself as inadequate in some way, and by the end of the book he's conquered this inadequacy. In the first book it's ignorance, in the second it's his right to consider himself a Gryffindor, in the third, weakness, in the fourth, immaturity." "That's a really great way of putting it." Abigail says. "But what does it tell us about the trials that Harry faces at the end of every book? Wouldn't it be accurate to say that the preparations that Harry puts himself through during every book, preparations with a rather mundane purpose - being able to play Quidditch, for example - help him survive the ordeal that he faces at the end of the book? It's these trials that mostly come under fire when people complain that Harry is too perfect, that he succeeds whenever he tries. But these people miss the fact that usually there's a year's worth of preparations, and not a little bit of failure, behind his final success. If Harry hadn't forced himself to learn Summoning Spells in order to complete the first TWT task, he would have died in that graveyard, unable to reach the Goblet of Fire. And that's another thing that people who complain about Harry's track record miss. All of Harry's ordeals so far have been either/or propositions - failure in each case meant death. This was not the place for JKR to teach her hero the meaning of failure, as it would have been a short and terminal lesson." "But that's because Harry isn't trying to get Voldemort." Objects Derannimer. "He never has. He's fought back when attacked; but even at the end of GOF, he doesn't really seem to have gone on the *offensive.* And he's going to need to, for the light side to win." "We know that, but Harry doesn't yet." Counters Abigail. "And anyway, I think the post-Graveyard scenes in GoF show us that Harry is deeply committed to the cause. The way he is with Hagrid, and later on the train with Fred and George, suggests that he believes himself to be Dumbledore's soldier. He doesn't perceive himself as the champion of the light side, and there's really no reason for him to do so at this point, but if Dumbledore asked him to go on the offensive, Harry would. Which begs the question of whether Dumbledore will try to get Harry more involved in the fight against Voldemort. On one hand, it seems unconscionable - Harry's just a kid, he isn't ready. But on the other hand, if Dumbledore is indeed grooming Harry to save the world, then the boy's got to learn sometime. Not, mind you, that I think we'll be seeing Dumbledore sending Harry to battle in OotP. Someone suggested a while back that OotP will be less concerned with the battle with Voldemort, in the same vein as PoA, perhaps dealing with the situation in the MoM. I think this makes a great deal of sense." "Well, you would." Derannimer scoffs. "You don't think anyone has to die in the coming books." "When did I say that?" Cries Abigail, accidentally knocking over a bowl of peanuts. "How could I possibly have said such a thing? Why it's absurd! Not only have there already been deaths in the Potterverse, we have it from JKR herself that there will be at least one 'horrible' death in OotP. I was objecting to the tendency of some" Abigail carefully avoids Cindy's eye, "theorists' to finish book 5 with about 4 living characters left. I said that this much death not only negated the emotional impact of any single character death, but it would cause the readers to ignore how horrible death truly is, which is obviously a subject JKR feels strongly about. And I think Captain Cindy will back me up on this." "I would?" Cindy asks doubtfully. "Would you kindly explain to Derannimer the meaning of the term 'Humpty-Dumptying the Bangs', Captain?" Abigail says imperiously. Cindy scowls, but turns patiently enough towards a confused Derannimer. "It means that excessive Bangs eventually inure the audience to their effects. You should know this, you know. What have you been getting up to in the Shipping Wing?" "Thank you, Captain." Says Abigail, smiling at Derannimer's reddening face. "You see, I accept that people will die, although I happen to disagree with you on how often, and also on who it will be." "You don't think Dumbledore is going to die?" Derannimer asks. "Well, he probably is, but under no circumstances is Dumbledore the OotP death." "Hagrid, then." "Exactly. I don't think Hagrid is going to die at all. I think it's going to be Lupin." The entire table breaks out in cries of "Not Lupin!" "I know, I know." Abigail sighs. "I love him too, and so does JKR. But when you think about it, it's obvious that only one of the two - Hagrid or Lupin - can die. Think about it, there's a curious duality when it comes to their functions. They both represent marginalized, discriminated-against minorities - werewolves and giants. Why two of them? It can only be because JKR is planning to kill one of them, but still wants to be able to finish the series with a minority group being accepted into wizarding society." "Why Lupin then?" Asks Cindy. "Why not Hagrid, if all we need is a representative of a discriminated minority?" "For several reasons." Abigail answers. "First, unlike Lupin's lycanthropy, no plot-point hinged on the fact that Hagrid is part giant in GoF. Lupin's being a werewolf is the reason the Peter escaped in PoA and partly the reason that he was suspected of being a traitor 15 years ago. The fact that Hagrid is a part giant has no such importance, which leads me to believe that it will be the root of a new story arc in OotP and beyond. Also, Hagrid has quite a lot of growth coming. He has a girlfriend and may be reunited with his mother. Are we supposed to believe that all of these plots will be resolved before the end of OotP? Finally, unlike Lupin, Hagrid's roles haven't been entirely usurped by other characters. I've already mentioned that Hagrid took over Lupin's role as a minority representative, but at the end of PoA, his role as one of Harry's fathers - the father as guardian and teacher - was usurped by Sirius. Lupin no longer has a function in the books. Add to that the fact that he's showing up in OotP and I'm afraid it's bye-bye Remus." The table was silent for a few minutes while everyone blew their noses and sniffed. "You're mean." Melody told Abigail, who was dabbing at her eyes with a tissue. "Maybe, but I don't think I'm wrong." Abigail answered sadly. "Another round?" Abigail Who would like to point out that, in the previous three weeks, when I had absolutely nothing to do, there was not one discussion on this group that caught my eye, and certainly none that had me composing a post for two hours. And now, just as the semester is getting warmed up, so does the group. Admit it, you guys, you do it on purpose. From hphgrwlca at yahoo.com Sun Mar 30 19:54:06 2003 From: hphgrwlca at yahoo.com (Christine Acker) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 11:54:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Lucius Malfoy and St. Mungos Message-ID: <20030330195406.44838.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54565 Eric Oppen wrote: > Actually, there are two perfectly logical reasons why Lucius Malfoy might be > donating to St. Mungo's. > > One is that he might very well feel that the wizard community's system of > magical health care needs to be kept in tip-top shape, *snip* > Another is that St. Mungo's might have also treated some of his fellow Death Eaters, or even Malfoy himself. Now me (Christine): These are very good suggestions, however, to me, the most obvious answer to the LM/SM's question is this: Let's consider what we know about the Longbottoms for a moment. We know they were Aurors, and a very popular couple. We know that they are in St. Mungo's after being driven mad by Voldemort. We know Voldie used the Cruciatus Curse on them. We know they have a son named Neville, whom they don't recognize. We know that son is not a very good student; he is very forgetful and unconfident. Now, look more closely at what we know. It is popular belief (here and in the WW) that they were driven mad after V used Cruciatus to obtain info from them. NOT FACT. I personally believe that the Longbottoms were pressed for information using Cruciatus, and then V discovered how much they really know and Memory Charmed them into mental oblivion. Also, he may have done so after inadvertantly giving them info to which they should not have been privy. What does this have to do with Neville? Well, it is obvious that Neville was already alive when this happened (they would not have had a child in SM's, plus it was right before he found the Potters). I think Neville was there when all this happened to his parents, and Voldie, knowing the power of the subconsious, would have Obliviated Neville as well to erase any info he might have accidentally absorbed. Why, then, didn't he kill Neville? I don't know. Maybe the same reason he might not have killed his parents: as a warning. Look out, there are fates worse than death, and I am not afraid to send you there. He planned on still being in power when Neville was grown up, and seeing the effects he had on Neville. He probably also figured people would put together what V did to Neville and glean a lesson from that as well. Whew! I sure hope there aren't any holes in this post, and that no one has posted this idea before. (I've been following this thread, so I don't think they have, but of course I could be wrong.) Let me know what you think! Christine, who really needs a backrub __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From tub_of_earwax at yahoo.com Sun Mar 30 20:12:18 2003 From: tub_of_earwax at yahoo.com (tub_of_earwax) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 20:12:18 -0000 Subject: H/G Ship: the full load In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54566 Hello all, I thought I'd add my thoughts and feelings on the subject. First of all. Ginny hears from Harry a lot. She hears about his specialness and his awsomeness and he aint that sore on the eyes either. Her infatuation if you will for Harry can easly be described as something I feel for Sirius Black. Let me explain. Since the first time I read baout how Sirius said that Peter should have died (you should have died roarded black, died rather than betray your friends as we would have done for you.). What he said to Peter really touched me because I haven't had any loyal friends till resently. The outlook Sirius took on was just principally, morally, loyally perfect and therefore I love him. The same goes for Ginny. Ginny hears how Harry Potter is a very special child, the only one who could withstand the killing curse. Then when she hears about Harry from Ron she likes him even more because this time she sees his moral etc character "up close"-ish. Ginny does not really have a crush on Harry, it's more like respect for him because of what he can and what he did. And therefore she likes him. Capish? That's how I see it at least. And because Ginny respectes him in that way (you're wonderful etc) if she ever has a more-than-Ron's- sister-more than friends-relationship with him it will turn out very succesfull on her part. Only Harry must also grow that same respect for her. I have a friend, whom I love dearly. He has the greatest respect for me and I have the greatest respect for him. I know that if he says it it's as good as true, even if it's not. What Ginny feels for Harry is not THAT advanced but if they get to know each other it may be. You know unless she suddenly changes her mind (which is very improbable). It's like someone saving your life, only a littel less omg-ish. My two knuts. *Lara* From trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no Sun Mar 30 20:14:23 2003 From: trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no (Trond Michelsen) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 22:14:23 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lucius Malfoy and St. Mungos In-Reply-To: <20030330195406.44838.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com>; from hphgrwlca@yahoo.com on Sun, Mar 30, 2003 at 11:54:06AM -0800 References: <20030330195406.44838.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030330221423.E21395@crusaders.no> No: HPFGUIDX 54567 On Sun, Mar 30, 2003 at 11:54:06AM -0800, Christine Acker wrote: > Let's consider what we know about the Longbottoms for > a moment. We know they were Aurors, and a very > popular couple. No. We know that Frank Longbottom was an Auror. We know nothing about his wife. > We know that they are in St. Mungo's > after being driven mad by Voldemort. We know Voldie > used the Cruciatus Curse on them. No, that's not true either. The people that used the cruatius curse on the Longbottoms were trying to find Voldemort. This happened after he was "defeated" by Harry. We don't even know kow long it is between these two incidents. All we know is that people had begun to feel safe again, so I'd say it was at the very least a couple of months. > We know they have a > son named Neville, whom they don't recognize. We know > that son is not a very good student; he is very > forgetful and unconfident. Sure. [snip theory] > Whew! I sure hope there aren't any holes in this > post, and that no one has posted this idea before. > (I've been following this thread, so I don't think > they have, but of course I could be wrong.) Well, replace Voldemort with Barty jr. and his accomplices, and it might work. -- // Trond Michelsen \X/ mike at crusaders.no From devika at sas.upenn.edu Sun Mar 30 20:27:29 2003 From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 20:27:29 -0000 Subject: Lucius Malfoy and St. Mungos In-Reply-To: <20030330195406.44838.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54568 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Christine Acker wrote: > > > Let's consider what we know about the Longbottoms for > a moment. We know they were Aurors, and a very > popular couple. We know that they are in St. Mungo's > after being driven mad by Voldemort. We know Voldie > used the Cruciatus Curse on them. We know they have a > son named Neville, whom they don't recognize. We know > that son is not a very good student; he is very > forgetful and unconfident. > > Now, look more closely at what we know. It is popular > belief (here and in the WW) that they were driven mad > after V used Cruciatus to obtain info from them. NOT > FACT. I personally believe that the Longbottoms were > pressed for information using Cruciatus, and then V > discovered how much they really know and Memory > Charmed them into mental oblivion. Also, he may have > done so after inadvertantly giving them info to which > they should not have been privy. > Actually, Voldemort was not the one who used the Cruciatus Curse on the Longbottoms. Death Eaters (Crouch Jr. allegedly being one of them) tortured the Longbottoms for information about Voldemort's whereabouts *after* Voldemort had been defeated by the Potters. It is unclear whether or not the Longbottoms actually had information about what had happened to Voldemort in the first place. It is possible that after using the Cruciatus Curse on the Longbottoms, the DEs also used powerful Memory Charms on them, causing their current mental states. There are two reasons that I can think of for why the DEs would do this: 1. The Longbottoms actually did know, and told the DEs, where to find Voldemort. The DEs then Obliviated them to prevent them from repeating this information. 2. The DEs simply Obliviated the Longbottoms to prevent them from being able to identify their attackers. This could have happened regardless of whether or not the Longbottoms had any information about Voldemort. > What does this have to do with Neville? > > Well, it is obvious that Neville was already alive > when this happened (they would not have had a child in > SM's, plus it was right before he found the Potters). > I think Neville was there when all this happened to > his parents, and Voldie, knowing the power of the > subconsious, would have Obliviated Neville as well to > erase any info he might have accidentally absorbed. > > Why, then, didn't he kill Neville? > > I don't know. Maybe the same reason he might not have > killed his parents: as a warning. Look out, there are > fates worse than death, and I am not afraid to send > you there. He planned on still being in power when > Neville was grown up, and seeing the effects he had on > Neville. He probably also figured people would put > together what V did to Neville and glean a lesson from > that as well. Well, although Voldemort could hardly have planned to be in power at this point (see above), the DEs who attacked the Longbottoms had the hope that they could find and resurrect him (Pensieve scene, GoF). I'm not sure why they did not kill the Longbottoms. Perhaps they were caught and arrested before they had the chance? > Whew! I sure hope there aren't any holes in this > post, and that no one has posted this idea before. > (I've been following this thread, so I don't think > they have, but of course I could be wrong.) > No major holes, if you replace "Voldemort" with "DEs." I know that a number of people have postulated the Memory Charmed! Neville theory before, although I can't think of who they are at the moment. Perhaps one of them could direct us to their posts on the topic. I seem to remember that people have also raised the possibility that a well-meaning family member might have used the memory charm on Neville to spare him the memory of seeing his parents being tortured. Hope this helps to clear things up :) Devika From urbana at charter.net Sun Mar 30 21:28:08 2003 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 21:28:08 -0000 Subject: HP and the UU Chalice (was: GoF Leaks) In-Reply-To: <94115772694.20030329230854@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54569 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > > Saturday, March 29, 2003, 9:40:26 PM, Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) wrote: > > CRPW> ... she had to quickly change it > CRPW> again, to GOBLET OF FIRE, when she discovered that The Flaming > CRPW> Chalice is the logo of the Unitarian Universalist Association (a > CRPW> religion). > > I'm a Unitarian Universalist, and just speaking for myself, I have to > admit I wouldn't have been offended if they had named it _Harry Potter > and the Chalice of Flame_ -- in fact I would have been flattered. > (Hey! Dumbledore is a UU!) But then, we're a faith of tolerance. > (*By definition*, there could never be any such thing as a UU > Fundamentalist!) > > -- > Dave I'm with Dave, literally. I'm also a UU (Unitarian Universalist) and I don't think I've met any UUs who disapprove of the Harry Potter books or any of the messages therein. "The moral universe of (philosophy of, gospel according to) Harry Potter" is a popular topic in our congregations, among adults as well as kids, and Dumbledore's admonition that "It is our choices rather than our abilities that show what we truly are" resonates very deeply within our chosen faith. Of course if the Goblet of Fire actually looked like the Flaming Chalice (http://www.uua.org/aboutuu/chalice.html) I might really start wondering ... but I know JKR belongs to the Church of Scotland. Ironically, Unitarian Universalism is all about choice, and Harry didn't have a choice about entering the Tri-Wizard Tournament because Moody!Crouch Jr. signed him up - but despite being signed up without his consent and against the age rules, Harry did his best to meet the responsibilities incumbent on a school champion. I think Harry has mostly made good choices so far, or at least he has always chosen "the good" when push came to shove. Anne U (who can't wait to discover the upcoming scenarios about "choosing between what is right and what is easy") From gandharvika at hotmail.com Sun Mar 30 21:29:57 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 21:29:57 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Another Temper Tantrum Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54570 Can't remember the last time I heard a filk 'bout dear ol' Dudley... Another Temper Tantrum (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _19th Nervous Breakdown_ by the Rolling Stones) Midi is here: http://www.angelfire.com/md/mipaha/stones.html Dedicated to Pippin. Harry: Cousin Dudley Is quite a scene Looks like a pig with hair Gets everything new, he has two rooms While I live under the stairs He gets what he wants then he taunts me just to rub it in And if he can't he starts to rant Kicks his father in the shins Uh-oh, look out Watch him now Here it comes, here it comes, here it comes, here it comes Here comes another temper tantrum When he was a child He acted wild But was never disciplined His birthday morning He wanted more things Than what was given him His mother, my Aunt Petunia, always breaks down to his will And Uncle Vernon's fortunes are made in making heavy drills Uh-oh look out Watch him now Here it comes, here it comes, here it comes, here it comes Here comes another temper tantrum His parents are to blame They made him that way This family's so dysfunctional Making my life a living hell Oh, please When we went to school He was so cruel Really a little sh*t Dudley and his gang Would do their thing I was always the target Would beat me up And I would run to try to get away But his parents would encourage him in his sadistic play Uh-oh look out Watch him now Here it comes, here it comes, here it comes, here it comes Here comes another temper tantrum It's a damn shame This kid can't be tamed His parents think he's their darling boy But to me he does much more than annoy Oh, please Dudley's dad and mum Say they love their son But they've never cared for me Treated just like dirt And it really hurts To have them act so mean Dudley would manipulate them by throwing a big row I think it's so frustrating, wish I could leave this family now Uh-oh look out Watch him now Here it comes, here it comes, here it comes, here it comes Here comes another temper tantrum -Gail B ... 5 _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sun Mar 30 23:47:07 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 23:47:07 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Death, and Hagrid vs. Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54571 Marina strolls through the quiet nocturnal streets of Theory bay, taking what may be her last chance to enjoy the scenery before Hurricane Jo tears it all to bits. As she turns a corner, she hears voices drifting out through the half-open door of the Royal George. Curious, she stops to peer in through the window. The glare from the neon pink flamingo on the sill mades it hard to see, but she does spot a number of familiar faces. More to the point, she spots George handing out drinks. Never one to turn down a chance at some booze, Marina steps into the tavern, just in time to hear Abigail make a shocking pronouncement. > "Exactly. I don't think Hagrid is going to die at all. I think it's going to be Lupin." > > The entire table breaks out in cries of "Not Lupin!" > > "I know, I know." Abigail sighs. "I love him too, and so does JKR. But when you think about it, it's obvious that only one of the two - Hagrid or Lupin - can die. Think about it, there's a curious duality when it comes to their functions. They both represent marginalized, discriminated-against minorities - werewolves and giants. Why two of them? It can only be because JKR is planning to kill one of them, but still wants to be able to finish the series with a minority group being accepted into wizarding society." > > "Why Lupin then?" Asks Cindy. "Why not Hagrid, if all we need is a representative of a discriminated minority?" > > "For several reasons." Abigail answers. "First, unlike Lupin's lycanthropy, no plot-point hinged on the fact that Hagrid is part giant in GoF. Lupin's being a werewolf is the reason the Peter escaped in PoA and partly the reason that he was suspected of being a traitor 15 years ago. The fact that Hagrid is a part giant has no such importance, which leads me to believe that it will be the root of a new story arc in OotP and beyond. Also, Hagrid has quite a lot of growth coming. He has a girlfriend and may be reunited with his mother. Are we supposed to believe that all of these plots will be resolved before the end of OotP? << Marina listens to the conversation with interest and a certain amount of dismay, as she is very fond Lupin. Finally, she can no longer contain herself. "Wait a minute," she says. "I have a few problems with Abigail's line of reasoning here. "Marina!" George immediately produces his most charming smile. "Long time no see! Here, have one on the house." He pours a couple of fingers of Lagavulin into a tumbler and hands it over. "Thanks, gorgeous." Marina pulls up a chair and sits down. The other patrons murmur their greetings and shift over to make room. "All right," says Abigail. "So what's wrong with my line of reasoning?" "Well..." Marina sips her Scotch thoughfully. "First of all, you seem to be forgetting just how damn long OotP is supposed to be. A third longer than GoF, we're told. Over 900 pages, we're told. Plenty of room to wrap up Hagrid's storyline. After all, aren't you claiming that Lupin's storyline has been sufficiently resolved -- and that was done in a much shorter book." "But look at all the changes happening in Hagrid's life!" Abigal says excitedly. "He's got a new girlfriend, a new mission, he has finally gotten the hang of his teaching job; he may even be reunited with his mother! Do you really think JKR would give him all these things just to kill him off?" "Darn tootin!" says Marina (that Lagavulin is really kicking in). In fact, all these positive developments in Hagrid's life are exactly what convinces me that he's toast. Think back to every action movie you've ever seen. How can you tell when a character is going to die?" There's a long silence while everyone ponders the question. "When something good is about to happen to them?" ventures Cindy after a while. "Exactly!" Marina bangs the table so hard that everyone's glasses jump. "When that veteran cop talks about retiring at the end of the case; when the baby-faced rookie soldier reads that letter from his pretty fiance back in Iowa; when that hard-bitten commando waxes poetic about the Montana ranch where he's going to settle down once the mission is over -- that's when you stamp 'Dead Meat' on the character's forehead. Hagrid life is about to get good, therefore he's doomed. Lupin's life, on the other hand, sucks. And there's been no reason to think that it'll stup sucking in the foreseeable future. Now, if he shows up in the opening chapters of OotP to announcce that he's hooked up with a lovely lady werewolf and they're buying a cottage in the Cotswolds together, all bets are off. But until then, I figure he's safe." "Well, maybe," Says Abigail. "But if Lupin lives, what the heck is he going to do? After all, as I said earlier: unlike Lupin, Hagrid's roles haven't been entirely usurped by other characters. I've already mentioned that Hagrid took over Lupin's role as a minority representative, but at the end of PoA, his role as one of Harry's fathers - the father as guardian and teacher - was usurped by Sirius. Lupin no longer has a function in the books. Add to that the fact that he's showing up in OotP and I'm afraid it's bye- bye Remus." > "I don't know about that," says Marina. "First of all, if Hagrid dies, then he'll no longer be usurping Lupin's function, will he? Second of all, the end of GoF opens up new possibilites for Lupin. Dumbledore names him as part of the "Old Crowd," and send Sirius to join him. This suggest that Lupin will have a role in the upcoming fight, a role that can't be filled by Hagrid, who is a)busy with the giants and b)too conspicuous. What this role will be, I don't know exactly. But if OotP is large enough to wrap up Hagrid's story line, it's also large enough to establish a new one for Lupin. "You know what I think?" says Abigail, "I think you just don't like the idea of Lupin dying, so you're flailing around looking for reasons why he won't." "Well, yeah," says Marina. "But they're good reasons, aren't they?" Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sun Mar 30 20:10:59 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 20:10:59 -0000 Subject: Getting Harry Tonight (a filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54572 I see that this has been a weekend for filks from the end of GoF set in the graveyard. Allow me to add my efforts to those of Eric Oppen and of Pippin. Here is a filk of "Getting Married Today" from Stephen Sondheim's "Company", titled "Getting Harry Tonight". (If I don't do one now, you will have filked all the Sondheim songs!) Asterisks are use to set off italicized words. They are not meant to appear as asterisks. You can find the original music at the following link: http://music.barnesandnoble.com/search/product.asp?ean=724355560827 I dedicate this filk to that "Sultan of Sondheim", Caius Marcus. Getting Harry Tonight SCENE: Harry is at the Graveyard in Little Hangleton, transported by the Tri-Wizard Cup, which, unknown to Harry, has been turned into a portkey by Barty Crouch, Jr. Peter Pettigrew, Wormtail is there, as is Lord Voldemort. Death Eaters come from far and wide at his summons via the Dark Mark. CHOIR OF DEATH EATERS: Praise this night, Dark Lord come in strife. Foe's blood drawn by knife; The bone dug up Of his sire, as required, for life. LORD VOLDEMORT: Tonight you're mine, Harry. Harry, you are in my power. I'll give You torture then I'll kill you, It will seem like forever. Tonight you're mine, Harry, You have but a moment to live. HARRY: Pardon me, am I supposed to be here? 'Cause if I'm supposed to be here I should like to know What happened to poor Cedric; and what's more, I'd like to find out what has happened to the tournament. I've seen your ilk before, but not so many at one go. Yet even so you do not frighten me a bit because I know you all are bullies, craven cowards who must hide behind those silly masks. Apropos, though, I laugh at your Jinxes. "Crucio" me; I've beaten the Sphinxes. Big "Hello," but you're not getting Harry tonight. CHOIR OF DEATH EATERS: Praise this night, servant made the slice, Willing sacrifice. The hand struck down Did suffice, paid his Master's price. HARRY: Listen everybody, look, I don't know what you're waiting for. A duel? What's a duel? It's a prehistoric ritual where everybody bows to one another then they raise their wands and utter the most horrifying incantations you have ever heard and then it dawns on you and suddenly you realize you're saddled with a nut who wants to kill you if he can. So, farewell, boys; you're not getting Harry. Stop that spell, boys; you're not getting Harry. I'm your foe, boys; you're not getting Harry. Stop the show! boys; you're not getting Harry; And "I say No," means you're not getting Harry tonight. O my! I must fly! It's too bad, I'd just love to stay. Goodbye! Go and cry, At our parting you will ache. I must flee! Pardon me, Hear my plea that we end our play. You see? *C'est la vie* No, it won't be Harry's wake. Listen Voldemort, I know you'll try to use the Killing Curse on me, but you must realize that I have Curses of my own, like "Jelly Legs" and "Leg Locker" and don't forget, "Expelliarmus". Both of us will be at risk. Yes, not just me alone. I know, however, that this fight will have but one outcome. When it's all over, Voldie, you'll be rotting in the midden with the other garbage. Do your worst, guys; you're not getting Harry. Won't get cursed, guys; you're not getting Harry. Gotta go, guys; you're not getting Harry. "Tally ho!" guys, you're not getting Harry. No quid pro quo, guys; you're not getting Harry tonight! CHOIR OF DEATH EATERS: Praise the sight, Dark Mark in the skies. Death's Head and Snake Eyes. We see its guise On our arms as alarms do rise. LORD VOLDEMORT: Tonight you're mine, Harry-- (HARRY interrupts him to sing a quodlibet {see note below} with LORD VOLDEMORT, whose part is printed before HARRY's. NOTA BENE: a quodlibet is where two different lyrics set to two different melodies are sung at the same time.) LORD VOLDEMORT: Harry, you are in my power. I'll give You torture then I'll kill you, It will seem like forever. Tonight you're mine, Harry, You have but a moment to live. HARRY: Look, Lord Voldemort, you didn't know this but we have the same wand cores; inside are phoenix feathers taken from the same bird and that leads to a phenomenon most rare, the spell Priori Incantatem, which has brought me friends who give me the support I need: The ghost of Cedric Diggory; Shadow of Frank Bryce the gardner; Shade of Bertha Jorkins; and the simulacra of my parents. (end of quodlibet) LORD VOLDEMORT: Grief and woe! HARRY: You're not getting Harry! CHOIR OF DEATH EATERS: Amen! LORD VOLDEMORT: Fear and dread. HARRY: No, you're not getting Harry! CHOIR OF DEATH EATERS: Amen! LORD VOLDEMORT: Pain you'll know! HARRY: See, you're not getting Harry! CHOIR OF DEATH EATERS: Amen! LORD VOLDEMORT: You'll be dead! HARRY: Still, you're not getting Harry! *"Impedimenta!"* You're not getting Harry tonight! (Harry runs back to the Tri-Wizard Cup portkey to bring the body of Cedric Diggory back to Hogwarts.) -Haggridd From t.forch at mail.dk Sun Mar 30 20:16:00 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 22:16:00 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?) In-Reply-To: References: <00a901c2f6db$4cc0a700$06a1cdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030330220508.00d6be20@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54573 At 19:23 30-03-03 +0000, Erica wrote: >Perhaps the prophecy didn't specify Harry defeating Voldemort but >the 'heir of Gryffindor' defeating the 'heir of Slytherin'. If >Voldemort is aware that he is Slytherin's heir (last?) and comes to >find out that the Potter line is descendent from Gryffindor then >perhaps he would make a point of anihilating all Potter's >everywhere. This would explain why Harry has no 'Potter' relatives >and why Voldemort was more interesting in killing James and Harry but >not Lily. The problem with this (from a logic viewpoint) is that it doesn't explain the true mystery. That Voldemort wanted to kill the whole family would be easy to believe - he after all wanted to kill everyone who opposed him - he and his Death Eaters were not in the habit of leaving survivors; neither women or children. What I would really like to have explained is why on earth he would want to save Lily - why did he attempt to get her move over? I have seen someone claim that it was out of consideration for Snape who was supposed to be in love with Lily, but that is - to be frank about it - nonsense! If Snape were in love with Lily, and had begged Voldemort spare her, then he would certainly see that as a weakness in Snape (Lily was after all Muggle-born - what Voldemort could only consider a lowly mudblood), and it wouldn't make him hesitate for a second if she put herself between him and his goal - much less waste effort trying to save a mudblood from herself (as he would see it). We need a far more compelling reason for Voldemort to wish to spare Lily. It has also been suggested that it had been predicted that killing Lily would lead to his downfall, but then we have to find some other reason why Voldemort wanted to kill Harry, because it is obvious from Dumbledore's reluctance to tell Harry in PS that this reason is important to the plot of the whole series. What I would like to see is a theory that can combine the compelling reason to kill Harry with a (not quite as) compelling reason to spare Lily. Troels From tammy at mauswerks.net Sun Mar 30 23:21:23 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 18:21:23 -0500 Subject: Nitwit-Oddment-Blubber-Tweak Message-ID: <3E8735A3.27970.7725853@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 54574 There's a heckuvalot of information in the archives, and I'm still delving through them, and I'm SURE that someone has probably brought this up at some time or other in the past, but here goes anyway. If this has been talked to death already, then I'm sorry. Otherwise, I'd love to hear people's thoughts on this. So far, most of the charms we've heard have at least some Old Latin flavor to the words. Accio, obliviate, expecto patronum, etc. The only one I can think of offhand (I had to return the library's volumes and am waiting very impatiently for my own to arrive) would be Alohomora (which always sounded vaguely Hawaiian to me). Those are charms. Then there are spells, like the one (bogus or not) that Gred/Forge -- sorry, but I can't tell 'em apart! -- gave Ron to turn Scabbers yellow, which was in plain English. What I'm wondering now is this: Has Dumbledore prefaced any more feasts with 'a few words', as he did in Harry's first year, or was that a one-off? Have we simply not witnessed any more 'few words'? Or, if it was a singular occasion, what are the chances that D's 'few words' may have been some kind of trigger for a spell, set at some earlier time, in preparation for Harry's life at Hogwarts? After all, what ARE the chances that anyone would utter those four words strung like that in any normal conversation? Tammy From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Mon Mar 31 02:20:10 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 02:20:10 -0000 Subject: Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030330220508.00d6be20@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54575 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer > What I would like to see is a theory that can combine the > compelling reason to kill Harry with a (not quite as) compelling > reason to spare Lily. Not killing her does not necessarily mean that he was going to 'spare her'. She may have had, perhaps, some other 'value' for him alive. In any case why 'stand aside'? Why not 'Impero ... stand aside'? If Voldemort didn't *want* to kill her, why did he? He could have incapacitated her with 'Crucio' or forced her will with 'Impero' could he not? Was Lily (like Harry) also able to throw off Impero? Is that what is alluded to when Fake!Moody tells the class to 'watch Harry's eyes' or 'it's in his eyes' or something like that, as Harry resists Impero? Erica From karenwickersham at ameritech.net Mon Mar 31 02:30:01 2003 From: karenwickersham at ameritech.net (karywick) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 02:30:01 -0000 Subject: Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030330220508.00d6be20@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54576 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > At 19:23 30-03-03 +0000, Erica wrote: > >Perhaps the prophecy didn't specify Harry defeating Voldemort but > >the 'heir of Gryffindor' defeating the 'heir of Slytherin'. If > >Voldemort is aware that he is Slytherin's heir (last?) and comes to > >find out that the Potter line is descendent from Gryffindor then > >perhaps he would make a point of anihilating all Potter's > >everywhere. This would explain why Harry has no 'Potter' relatives > >and why Voldemort was more interesting in killing James and Harry but > >not Lily. > > As I stated in a theory about six months ago when I started on this list,(and only a few believe me I think) most listies who posted insisted that there's no way I could be right. Is that the reason that Dumbledore keeps Trelawney around even though most of her predictions are junk, she has been known to be a bit "batty" and keep to herself up to in that tower, is because of her first and second true prophecies. The second one is canon about Voldemort's second rise to power. The first is true speculation. I have believed, ever since reading about her first true prediction, knowing that LV was out to kill Harry and that James Potter and the rest of the family was dead, was that her first true prediction was that a son of James Potter would be Voldemort's future downfall. Well true its not canon, but that would explain why Lily could have been saved and James had to be killed. (Answering your question) If the male line of Potters was dead - the heir to Griffindor and the whole line would be stopped. Voldemort tried to beat the prophecy, but he failed and the prophecy came true. It the only reason I can think of even a truly harded criminal mind trying to kill a 15- 18(I'm not sure the correct age) month old toddler that can't even talk yet and has no idea who he is. I don't think Dumbledore tald Harry in SS becuase he was only 11, didn't know much about LV at the time,was really regretting not having parents, didn't know anything about them, and was not very mature at the time. But now that LV had regained a body or form he has to again try to kill Harry or once again the prophecy will come true. Unless (#1) I'm wrong - which I truly believe we'll find out I'm not - or I'll eat that velvet hat - ship it my way! OR (#2.)That gleam in Dumbledore's eye meant something we don't know about where Harry doesn't to be to the downfall LV this time. Who may have to give you my address but I certainly don't think so :-) Kary From karenwickersham at ameritech.net Mon Mar 31 02:53:34 2003 From: karenwickersham at ameritech.net (karywick) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 02:53:34 -0000 Subject: Order of the Phoenix (group not title) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030330220508.00d6be20@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54577 I had a thought and was wondering of if the "Order of the Phoenix" was the name of a society or a secret group chosen by Fawkes by who gets feather from his body parts (not JUST his tail). I've heard or the "Order of the Freemasons" or the "Order of the Knights of Columbus" and they are usuall groups , sometimes based on religions, that do charitable works and such (I don't know if they are also in the UK and other countries) that are usually just open to men to join that have hall and meetings and such. I don't really know a lot about them but they are always in parades and run children's hospitals and other charitable organizations. I'm using that definition of the word. But here's my thoughts I read all of the posts on Fawkes and although it is canon that he has only given two tail feathers to make wands - Harry's and LV's- that does not mean that he cannot give other feathers on his body to make cores of wands such as wing feathers, head feathers, phoenix ruff (the taller feathers on the head, I'm not sure what to call them) chest feathers, and such. We have never heard about what is in the cores of any of Dumbledore's Old Crowd. Could they have phoenix feathers of other parts of the body (could there be other Fawkes wands floating around?) I'm not suggesting that all the old crowd has them who fought against LV, but we don't know the wand core for many adults in canon except for maybe Mr. Weasley and LV. I think canon says that Dumbledore just asked Molly Weasley if they would join them in the fight against LV. And since Sirius and Snape were in other position, friends or enemies of James Potter, last time LV reigned they were not members of the old crowd either. Does anyone think there might be other Fawkes wands around with different body feathers than tail feathers (Maybe Dumbledore since its his pet) or does everyone just think the Order is just anyone against Voldemort? Kary From catlady at wicca.net Mon Mar 31 03:02:50 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 03:02:50 -0000 Subject: Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030330220508.00d6be20@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54578 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > What I would like to see is a theory that can combine the > compelling reason to kill Harry with a (not quite as) compelling > reason to spare Lily. Someone has suggested that the Prophecy was that Lily's son would win the war for his father's side, so V wanted to kill Harry but also get his own son on Lily. I believe this theory is called SEW EWW IT'S IN THE SEWWERR, but my problem with it is that I don't believe V was capable of begetting a child -- part of the cost of his immortality spells. As for why would anyone believe Trelawney's prophecy, I propose that V didn't hear it from Trelawney, but rather he read it in the stars. And Dumbledore knew that it was a true prophecy before it came true because he also read it in the stars, or the centaurs did and told him. From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 31 03:16:20 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 03:16:20 -0000 Subject: Missed Feasts (used to be Nitwit-Oddment-Blubber-Tweak Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54579 Tammy wrote: Has Dumbledore prefaced any more feasts with 'a few words', as he did in Harry's first year, or was that a one-off? Have we simply not witnessed any more 'few words'? Or, if it was a singular occasion, what are the chances that D's 'few words' may have been some kind of trigger for a spell, set at some earlier time, in preparation for Harry's life at Hogwarts? After all, what ARE the chances that anyone would utter those four words strung like that in any normal conversation? Well, Harry missed the feast his second and third years, so we don't know what might have been said. His fourth year, the Tri-Wizard Tournament pretty much dominated the remarks. I always just attributed D's "few words" to being nonsense, kind of like an opening joke in a speech. Maybe I'm missing something, but that's just what I thought. imamommy From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 31 03:36:30 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 03:36:30 -0000 Subject: The trouble with Neville Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54580 There's been a lot of speculation about what happened to Neville Longbottom when his parents were tortured. Although it is plausible that he had a memory charm performed on him, this seems to me unnecessarily complicated. What do we know about Neville? He's a pre-pubescent kid who's parents haven't recognized him his whole life. He's been raised by a strict Gran, and the cause of his tragic life is, well, misused magic. I'm not a psychologist, but that seems enough to me to give the boy a block when it comes to learning magic, as well as low self-esteem. This actually makes me think of something rather else interesting. In canon, we learn that the mark of Slytherin House is ambition, that of HH is loyalty, that of RH is cleverness, and that of GH is courage. Doesn't it seem odd that Ron and Neville, who seem more loyal than courageous, and Hermione, who has cleverness in spades, were placed in Gryffindor? I think they must be there to help Harry; I think also that they each will have further tests of courage to come. After all, the Sorting Hat is an impartial judge. Does anyone have any ideas on this, or can tell me if it has been discussed before? Thanks, imamommy From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Mar 31 05:55:45 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 05:55:45 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Failure, Dumbledore, Death and Hagrid vs. Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54581 It's another late night session at the Royal George, dimly lit by, what else, hurricane lamps. Abigail is holding forth: >>"Exactly. I don't think Hagrid is going to die at all. I think it's going to be Lupin." The entire table breaks out in cries of "Not Lupin!" "I know, I know." Abigail sighs. "I love him too, and so does JKR. But when you think about it, it's obvious that only one of the two - Hagrid or Lupin - can die. Think about it, there's a curious duality when it comes to their functions. They both represent marginalized, discriminated-against minorities - werewolves and giants. Why two of them? It can only be because JKR is planning to kill one of them, but still wants to be able to finish the series with a minority group being accepted into wizarding society." "Why Lupin then?" Asks Cindy. "Why not Hagrid, if all we need is a representative of a discriminated minority?" "For several reasons." Abigail answers. "First, unlike Lupin's lycanthropy, no plot-point hinged on the fact that Hagrid is part giant in GoF. Lupin's being a werewolf is the reason the Peter escaped in PoA and partly the reason that he was suspected of being a traitor 15 years ago. The fact that Hagrid is a part giant has no such importance, which leads me to believe that it will be the root of a new story arc in OotP and beyond. Also, Hagrid has quite a lot of growth coming. He has a girlfriend and may be reunited with his mother. Are we supposed to believe that all of these plots will be resolved before the end of OotP? Finally, unlike Lupin, Hagrid's roles haven't been entirely usurped by other characters. I've already mentioned that Hagrid took over Lupin's role as a minority representative, but at the end of PoA, his role as one of Harry's fathers - the father as guardian and teacher - was usurped by Sirius. Lupin no longer has a function in the books. Add to that the fact that he's showing up in OotP and I'm afraid it's bye-bye Remus."<< Pippin clears her throat. Cindy grips her paddle. Abigail realizes her error and, far too late, claps a hand over her mouth. Marina hunts vainly for a religious symbol, or maybe a stake. Melody's got a sword...but Melody is smiling. For all that she's never been able to convince Pippin that there's anything to Magic Dishwasher, the fact remains that without at least the possibility of Evil!Lupin, Dishwasher is no soap. Pippin sips at her glass of mysterious red liquid. "What's Lupin got to do? I'll tell you what he's got to do. He's got to betray Harry, that's what he's got to do. *That's* why there's a curious duality about Lupin. He's ever so evil! Anyway, I'm pretty sure JKR said somewhere that Lupin would be around through Book 7. Which only makes sense. Your villain has to die in the last ditch." "But" says Abigail, " if Hagrid and Lupin are both eliminated, who's going to be the minority accepted into wizarding society? " Pippin grins. "Vampire!Snape, of course. Anyway, suppose Lupin dies, apparently a hero, and only the Trio knows of his treachery. Ron's decision to keep the secret in order to protect other werewolves will prove that he's truly overcome his prejudice, while making it perfectly clear that, even though Lupin is evil, JKR believes prejudice is wrong." Pippin From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 31 06:10:12 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 06:10:12 -0000 Subject: Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030330220508.00d6be20@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54582 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > At 19:23 30-03-03 +0000, Erica wrote: > >Perhaps the prophecy didn't specify Harry defeating Voldemort but > >the 'heir of Gryffindor' defeating the 'heir of Slytherin'. > > ... find ... the Potter line is descendent from Gryffindor then > > ... he would... anihilating all Potter's .... This would explain > > why Harry has no 'Potter' relatives and why Voldemort was more > > interesting in killing James and Harry but not Lily. > Troels> > > ...edited... What I would > really like to have explained is why on earth he would want to save > Lily - why did he attempt to get her move over? > > ...edited... > > We need a far more compelling reason for Voldemort to wish to > spare Lily. > > ...edited... > > What I would like to see is a theory that can combine the > compelling reason to kill Harry with a (not quite as) compelling > reason to spare Lily. > > Troels bboy_mn: What makes you think Voldemort wanted to spare Lily or that he would have? >From what I see Voldemort merely dismissed Lily as insignificant; along the lines of, 'step aside girl, I've got more important things to do than waste my time with you'. I don't recall anything in the actual event of Lily and James's death that indicates that Voldemort had any intention of sparing Lily. True, Voldemort said at other times and in other places that Lily didn't have to die but those word suited his needs at the moment. I see nothing in the event or in my analysis of Voldemort's character that makes me believe that his words can be trusted. They are without exception self-serving, and never sincere. In the moment of Lily's death, she was nothing more than an annoyance that stood between him and his objective. As soon as he achieved his objective, I have no doubt that he would have killed Lily for no reason other than his initial preception of her; that is, an annoyance to be gotten out of his way. Consider the implications of what he seemed to be offering her. Step aside and let me kill your son, and I might let you go. Who in their right mind would consider that a legitimate offer, but cause who in the right mind would offer it with any expectation what so ever that the offer would be accepted. Scenario: V: I've come here to kill James and Harry in cold blood, in a ruthless, uncaring, and cruel manner. J: Lily, I'll try to hold him off. Take Harry and Run. V: BANG! (James is dead) L: No! Not Harry! I'll do anything! Take me, just don't hurt Harry! V: Stand aside! Stand aside, you silly girl! L: Oh I see, you aren't going to kill me. Well, why did you say so? Here (Lily steps aside) go ahead kill Harry. I can always make more babies. Is there anybody on any side of this scenerio; me, you, Lily, Voldemort, who actually believes it's possible for the scene to play out that way? It's ridiculous. First, no evil overlord can be trusted at his word. Second, no parent is going to step aside, and even if they did, no evil overlord is going to leave one person standing in the end. I could just never happen that way. Any implication that Voldemort might have spared Lily is irrational as far as I'm concerned. He didn't mean it, and she didn't believe it; simple as that. Just a thought. bboy_mn From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Mon Mar 31 07:08:04 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 07:08:04 -0000 Subject: Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?) In-Reply-To: <00a901c2f6db$4cc0a700$06a1cdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54583 Richelle wrote: > I can't understand where the prophecy came from. Or who, more > like. Unless I've missed someone, the only one I've heard > connected to the prophecy is Trelawney. I believe this is because > she prophecied the rise of Voldemort the second time. But > Dumbledore clearly stated that it would bring her total of true > prophecies to two. Which means the first was just that. The > first. Why would Voldemort believe someone's prophecy who'd never > prophecied anything before that had actually happened? That's the > part I don't understand. How about the prophecy coming from Lily? This could explain Voldemort's (possible) desire to not kill her. Also, we know Harry got Quidditch skills from his dad; perhaps his (possible) divination skills come from his mum. - Nobody's Rib From petra.delisser at postikaista.net Mon Mar 31 07:33:22 2003 From: petra.delisser at postikaista.net (brinforest) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 07:33:22 -0000 Subject: Nitwit-Oddment-Blubber-Tweak In-Reply-To: <3E8735A3.27970.7725853@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54584 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tammy Rizzo" wrote: > what are the chances that D's 'few words' > may have been some kind of trigger for a spell, set at some earlier time, in > preparation for Harry's life at Hogwarts? After all, what ARE the chances that > anyone would utter those four words strung like that in any normal conversation? > This business about Nitwit etc. is one of my favourite questions, because it's such a small detail, but might turn out to be big after all. A long time ago I posted a little theory about what I suspected it to mean and why (check out message 45676 and see if you like any aspect of it), but I've kind of grown out of that one since I'm now a stubborn believer in the whimsical, yet immensely attractive, REDHEAD ALWAYS theory (see message 53151). Yes, I still like advertising that! (Although the two might still mesh somehow... talk about hopeful!) I really like your theory too - although I must say I'll believe almost anything that gives those four words an important meaning! Brin From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Mon Mar 31 08:11:36 2003 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 08:11:36 -0000 Subject: Nitwit-Oddment-Blubber-Tweak In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54585 "Tammy Rizzo" wrote: > > what are the chances that D's 'few words' > > may have been some kind of trigger for a spell, set at some > earlier time, in > > preparation for Harry's life at Hogwarts? > > Brin posted, a long time ago: > > I think the words represent people (see Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot > and Prongs). And these four could be either the founders of > Hogwarts, or, as I prefer, the "Marauders" of Dumbledore's youth, > him being one. > > >Brin wrote: > > A long time ago I posted a little theory , but I've kind of > grown out of that one since I'm now a stubborn believer in the > whimsical, yet immensely attractive, REDHEAD ALWAYS theory (see > message 53151). Yes, I still like advertising that! (Although the > two might still mesh somehow... talk about hopeful!) Oh, but they can mix together! I love the idea of the words being nicknames for people from Dumbledore!Ron's youth - especially since this means they are nicknames for HRH+1. HRH just haven't begun to call themselves by these names yet. (Who's who? That's what I want to know...) - Nobody's Rib (who really does find REDHEAD ALWAYS to be durn attractive, and who enjoys doing what she can to keep it alive) From pen at pensnest.co.uk Mon Mar 31 08:12:53 2003 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 09:12:53 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Graveyard scene In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <92AA4779-6350-11D7-9473-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 54586 On Friday, Mar 28, 2003, at 10:38 Europe/London, finwitch wrote: > > Bloody clothes: A fake. He did leave something that looked like blood > to pretend he had been eaten by Crookshanks... where did he get that > in short notice? Same place he got the blood on the clothes he left > behind, I presume... > Why go to the trouble of obtaining fake blood when the real thing is so readily available? Pen From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Mar 31 07:34:27 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 07:34:27 -0000 Subject: Magical genetics In-Reply-To: <001401c2f6e6$ed926320$3f7c0550@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54587 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: > Catlady wrote: > > >But I also suggest that there is also a Magic that keeps the total > >number of wizarding people constant. When a wizard or witch dies, > >their magic goes to the next suitable child born in their area. Ffred replied: > The only point that I'd wonder about is whether the mechanism you suggest > would keep wizardly _numbers_ constant or the wizard:muggle _ratio_ > constant. Finwitch: I think that this magic keeps not the number of magical people, nor the ratio constant, but the amount of magic, much like the total amount of energy is constant. The strength of an individual may depend on *when* magic enters. Say, if it enters when the individual is still one single cell (rare event) the individual has magic everywhere in the body. Entering a single cell and dividing where that cell divides... -- Finwitch. From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Mar 31 07:52:21 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 07:52:21 -0000 Subject: The Longbottems (was OoP Book Covers also The certian room) In-Reply-To: <20030330184921.62679.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54588 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lea wrote: > Which begs the question - is it possible to become a Secret Keeper if you are insane? Do you really need a "mind" in order to receive/keep a secret? > Lea (who believes that the mind is the first thing to go when you become insane) > You know... If you don't need a mind to Keep the secret, then the secret is safest to be put into a Dementor-Kissed person! It is possible the Secret Keeper takes the secret to the grave - in which case the DEs would just *kill* anyone knowing secrets they don't want known by anyone. But Longbottoms... Maybe they can be healed by phoenix-tears? By phoenix-song? Some other music? (Remember Dumbledore: "Ah, music, magic beyond all that we teach here" in PS) Is Harry *ever* going to learn how to play that flute Hagrid gave him for christmas? -- Finwitch From abigailnus at yahoo.com Mon Mar 31 11:13:11 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 11:13:11 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Death, and Hagrid vs. Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54589 Abigail sighs. Really, she should have anticipated this. How could she have expected anyone to respond to anything she said about failure, or Dumbledore, when she's just dropped the Dead!Lupin bombshell? It must have been the Brandy that made her so incautious. Well, there's nothing to it. Carefully, she uncovers her ears, but it's no use. The Royal George is as loud as it was a few minutes ago, when Marina and Pippin started exclaiming at her from both sides. "Lupin is not going to die!" Marina cries. "Your reasoning is flawed!" "Of course he's not going to die!" Pippin announces. "He's Ever So Evil!" "One at a time!" Abigail shouts. Marina and Pippin stop talking, and glare at each other. Abigail takes stock of the table. She hasn't won many admirers tonight, what with calling Dumbledore the B- word and everything. Better to deal with Marina first, as ESE!Lupin doesn't have as many supporters. "All right," she says to Marin. "So what's wrong with my line of reasoning?" "Well..." Marina sips her Scotch thoughfully. "First of all, you seem to be forgetting just how damn long OotP is supposed to be. A third longer than GoF, we're told. Over 900 pages, we're told. Plenty of room to wrap up Hagrid's storyline. After all, aren't you claiming that Lupin's storyline has been sufficiently resolved -- and that was done in a much shorter book." "Lupin's storyline *has* been resolved." Abigail insists. "Can you point out a Lupin-related arc, apart from the ongoing intolerance- against-werewolves, that remains open? Besides, you can't possibly expect me to accept an argument based on OotP's *length*? To assume that we can conclude from the book's page count how important and resolved Hagrid's storyline will be is pure speculation. I know," she waves a hand before Marina can interrupt, "my assumption that OotP will contain a storyline about Hagrid, Madame Maxime and his mother in the first place is also speculation, but it is borne out by canon. Actually, if I'm wrong about this story being introduced in OotP, then the argument becomes even stronger for Hagrid surviving to book 6, because we know that the giant storyline has to be introduced sometime." Abigail downs a drink and catches her breath. "And anyway, why should the fact that OotP is so long tell us anything about whether there's 'enough room' to resolve a storyline? GoF is nearly as long as OotP (in chapters, the UK versions of the books having a smaller disparity of page numbers) and the Hagrid-is-a-giant storyline wasn't resolved there. Why should it be resolved in OotP? The fact is, I don't know that Lupin won't have a new storyline in OotP any more then you know that the Giant!Hagrid storyline will be resolved in that book, so it seems silly to use either claim to bolster or weaken Dead!Lupin." "Oh, come off it, Abigail." Marina says derisively. "We all know what your real argument is. 'Look at all the changes happening in Hagrid's life! He's got a new girlfriend, a new mission, he has finally gotten the hang of his teaching job; he may even be reunited with his mother! Do you really think JKR would give him all these things just to kill him off?'. Pah." "I didn't say that." Abigail responds calmly. "I was very careful not to say that. I don't think we can count on JKR not to be cruel to the characters she loves, or that she would consider killing Hagrid at this juncture 'too sad'. You're right to mention that the soldier about to go home to his sweetheart has 'Dead Meat' stamped on his forehead. (Although, if my rather poor knowledge of war movies serves me, aren't those characters usually the red-shirts? They're the guys who die so we know the situation is sirious, not important secondary characters.) But that wasn't my argument. I was saying that Hagrid has a lot left to do, and it seems unlikely that he'll be killed off before all of his storylines wrap up. There was nothing sentimental about it. Now, maybe all of Hagrid's storylines *will* be wrapped up in OotP, in which case he and Lupin will be on equal footing (and if Lupin gets a new storyline is OotP he'll be less likely to die then Hagrid) but we can only work with the canon we have and with reasonable conclusions drawn from it, and so far, Hagrid has a story, and Lupin doesn't even have a role." "But if Hagrid dies, then he's no longer usurping Lupin's role." Marina insists. "Only his role as a minority representative. Lupin's role as Harry's father will still have passed on to Sirius. And Hagrid's role as Harry's father - the father as a nurturing figure - will remain unfilled." "Maybe Harry no longer needs a nurturing figure." Marina suggests. "We've said before that Harry's outgrown Hagrid emotionally." "Has he? I'm not sure." Abigail takes another drink. "At this point, we're back to speculating." "Now me!" Says Pippin, sipping at her glass of mysterious red liquid. "What's Lupin got to do? I'll tell you what he's got to do. He's got to betray Harry, that's what he's got to do. *That's* why there's a curious duality about Lupin. He's ever so evil!" Abigail frowns, and then nods. "OK, I can accept that." "What?!" Marina cries. "You're accepting Evil!Lupin? *Nobody* believes in Evil!Lupin! How can you just accept it?" "I'm not accepting it." Abigail says. "I *don't* believe in Evil! Lupin, but if he does exist then Pippin is right. There's another function for Lupin in the books and all bets are off on whether he dies and when." "I'll tell you when he dies." Pippin says, flush with victory. "Lupin's going to be around through Book 7. Which only makes sense. Your villain has to die in the last ditch." "Your villain?" Abigail repeats. "Lupin is the villain? I don't think so. At least, he'd have to get in line, after Peter, and Lucius, and let's not forget Voldemort. Some of these people have to die in book 7, but all of them? And Lupin too, if he's evil? Didn't you hear Cindy's definition of Humpty-Dumptying the Bangs?" "That's just for the good characters." Pippin replies. "No it isn't. The bad guys have to die in an epic struggle to the death with the hero. If we accept Evil!Lupin then we have four major bad guys. Don't you think that by number 3, the death scenes will start to get a bit anti-climatic? No, Lupin could be evil and still die before book 7, even in book 5, although in that case I doubt that his death would be the 'horrible' one. Besides, there's one thing that you've neglected to consider." "What?" "That Evil!Lupin's function is just as usurped as Good!Lupin. In fact, usurped might be the wrong word, as we've already had a revelation that a person on the good side has turned evil and personally betrayed Harry. Do you really think that with Peter Pettigrew around, we need *another* traitor?" "Maybe Lupin could usurp *Peter's* function." Pippin insists. "Peter is the servant of Voldemort with a life debt to Harry." Abigail says. "Do you really think he'll be killed off in favour of Lupin? Haven't we all agreed that Peter will be instrumental in allowing Harry to destroy Voldemort in book 7? Anyway, what Peter did was so horrible, Lupin would have to do something really, really awful to be able to supplant him." This does not have the reaction that Abigail was expecting. Pippin's eyes glow, she rubs her the palms of her hands together expectantly and is, all around, being more then a little disturbing. Suppressing a shudder, Abigail turns to address the entire table. "You have a choice." She says. "You can have Dead!Lupin, or Really- Horrible-Evil!Lupin. Which will it be?" Abigail From Sunnylove0 at aol.com Mon Mar 31 15:58:29 2003 From: Sunnylove0 at aol.com (Sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 10:58:29 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: TBAY: Failure, Dumbledore, Death and Hagrid vs. Lupin Message-ID: <7e.3743574b.2bb9bfa5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54590 In the Royal George, Abigail was putting forth the following: > > Lupin no longer has a function in the books. Add to that the fact that > he's showing up in OotP and I'm afraid it's bye-bye Remus." > And then Pippin put forth: Anyway, I'm pretty sure JKR said somewhere that Lupin would be around through Book 7. Which only makes sense. Your villain has to die in the last ditch." ************** Suddenly, a crash was heard as the window shattered. Everyone jumped back. "Isn't it a little early for Hurricane Jo?" But it wasn't Hurricane Jo. A giant basilisk stuck its head through the window, and fortunately for everyone present, it wore a giant pair of Ray-Ban sunglasses around its lethal yellow eyes. And was dangling Stoned!Harry from its mouth. The basilisk gave the kid a little shake, and he said "Um....oh, yeah. She wants me to tell you that though she is firmly convinced that Hagrid is the one to go in OOP, she wants to back up Abigail's theory by saying that Lupin, having lived a horrible life due to lycanthropy and by JKR's interview criteria, is perfectly suited to return in Book 7as a ghost." The Queen of Serpents who would like to say in the traditional newbie fashion that this is her first TBay post and to request that she be informed if it was a total screw-up. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From burgess at cynjut.net Mon Mar 31 15:48:38 2003 From: burgess at cynjut.net (David Burgess) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 09:48:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: The Longbottems (was OoP Book Covers also The certian room) In-Reply-To: References: <20030330184921.62679.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <40976.204.248.21.50.1049125718.squirrel@www.cynjut.net> No: HPFGUIDX 54591 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lea ; wrote: > >> Which begs the question - is it possible to become a Secret Keeper >> if you are insane? Do you really need a "mind" in order >> to receive/keep a secret? I'm new, so bear with me if all of this has been covered before. My expectation would be that, to receive the secret, you would have to accept the secret. In order to do that, I would expect you'd need to be aware of your surrounding and self-aware. The willingness to accept the secret and keep it implies both consent and assent, neither of which would be possible without concious thought. So, in my reading of the limited information we have, it would seem to me that a mind is definitely required as a prerequisite. > > You know... If you don't need a mind to Keep the secret, then the > secret is safest to be put into a Dementor-Kissed person! It is > possible the Secret Keeper takes the secret to the grave - in which > case the DEs would just *kill* anyone knowing secrets they don't want > known by anyone. We know from canon that the "soul" is the repository of the secret in a Secret Keeper, not the mind. Since the Dementor's Kiss extracts the soul (but not necessarily the mind?) from the person, the secret could not be harbored in such a person. IMHO, JKR strays onto dangerously theological ground in this whole area. Granted, going with something like "emotions", "feelings", or even "willingness to live" would have been safer, but would have lacked the emotional impact. As for keeping the secret to the grave, I agree. There is plenty of prior art on "taking a secret to your grave" and the level of devotion this engenders. It would be quite against the grain for JKR to have Secret Keeping be thwarted by something as simple as murdering the SK. These issues, of course, offer some interesting downsides to the whole system. I've been worried about with this line of reasoning is the question of inadvertant disclosure, totality, degree of separation. Suppose, for example, that the secret keeper is supposed to keep a secret like "James and Lily's young son Harry is in hiding with his aunt and uncle on Privet Drive." Who is the secret a secret from? If the spell works in totality, how would Petunia be able to find him? OK, so some people know where's he is and some don't. At what point is the secret really a secret, and when isn't it? Flitwick's description makes the spell extremely powerful, but at what degree of separation does it stop working? On the other hand, what would be the point of the Secret Keeper spell if the guy down at the filling station could tip someone off inadvertantly? > > But Longbottoms... Maybe they can be healed by phoenix-tears? By > phoenix-song? Some other music? (Remember Dumbledore: "Ah, music, > magic beyond all that we teach here" in PS) Is Harry *ever* going > to learn how to play that flute Hagrid gave him for christmas? In my study of the canon, I can't really see anything that would lead me to believe that Neville's parents' condition has any hope of improving. Clearly, the obvious stuff would have been tried, especially since Neville's father was incapacitated in the service of the Ministry of Magic. While it might be hard to accept, this may simply be a plot device to explain why Neville is in the situations he is most of the time. Of course, I wouldn't want to minimize the effects of this on the storyline (Harry isn't the only orphan at Hogwarts, etc.) but I don't think there will be a Happy Ending for Neville's parents. I'm not minimizing the impact of the disclosure. In fact, I even got the impression that in GoF Moody!Crouch might have felt bad about what happened to Neville's parents. The DE are hard to read, but some of them certainly could feel some guilt about some of the things they had done in pursuit of Voldemort's ultimate goal(s). As far as the flute goes, I have no theory on that at all. I believe that just about every detail is there on purpose, but some of them may be there as transitory color. It could be that the flute will make another appearance (other than just something in Harry's trunk) but I doubt it will be an important part of the future story. On the other hand, if Hagrid dies in OOP or book 6, it would be the perfect tribute for Harry to return it at a funeral. -- Dave Burgess From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Mar 31 17:16:40 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 18:16:40 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?) References: Message-ID: <3E8877F8.000001.16543@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 54592 > Troels> > > ...edited... What I would > really like to have explained is why on earth he would want to save > Lily - why did he attempt to get her move over? > > ...edited... > > We need a far more compelling reason for Voldemort to wish to > spare Lily. > > ...edited... > > What I would like to see is a theory that can combine the > compelling reason to kill Harry with a (not quite as) compelling > reason to spare Lily. > bboy_mn: What makes you think Voldemort wanted to spare Lily or that he would have? I don't recall anything in the actual event of Lily and James's death that indicates that Voldemort had any intention of sparing Lily. Consider the implications of what he seemed to be offering her. Step aside and let me kill your son, and I might let you go. Who in their right mind would consider that a legitimate offer, but cause who in the right mind would offer it with any expectation what so ever that the offer would be accepted. Scenario: V: I've come here to kill James and Harry in cold blood, in a ruthless, uncaring, and cruel manner. J: Lily, I'll try to hold him off. Take Harry and Run. V: BANG! (James is dead) L: No! Not Harry! I'll do anything! Take me, just don't hurt Harry! V: Stand aside! Stand aside, you silly girl! L: Oh I see, you aren't going to kill me. Well, why did you say so? Here (Lily steps aside) go ahead kill Harry. I can always make more babies. Is there anybody on any side of this scenerio; me, you, Lily, Voldemort, who actually believes it's possible for the scene to play out that way? It's ridiculous. First, no evil overlord can be trusted at his word. Second, no parent is going to step aside, and even if they did, no evil overlord is going to leave one person standing in the end. I could just never happen that way. Any implication that Voldemort might have spared Lily is irrational as far as I'm concerned. He didn't mean it, and she didn't believe it; simple as that. K - But Harry's protection came from Lily giving her life to protect him - if there had been no possibility of Lily being spared then I don't see how that would work. There is no suggestion that *James'* sacrifice gave Harry any measure of protection even though he clearly made a decision to stay and fight rather than try and run. James stood his ground to try and give Lily and Harry a chance to escape even knowing (as he must have done) that he couldn't defeat Voldemort. Lily offered her life to save Harry. *Lily* is the one credited with giving Harry the protection so there must be some difference between their sacrifices. Obviously (to me any way) it is that James was going to die anyway, he was one of Voldeomrt's targets, Lily wasn't. Note Voldemort's response to Lily's offer. She begs him to take her instead - he doesn't say "what do you mean instead you stupid woman, I'm here for all of you!". Equally he doesn't just AK her and carry on to Harry. He gives her the chance to stand aside - I admit Voldemort probably isn't the most trustworthy of individuals but why make the offer if he didn't (at least at the moment he made it) intend to honour it. It really would have been just as simple to kill her and step over the body. Whether we could ever seriously expect a parent to accept such an offer is totally irrelevent to whether the offer is made seriously. Voldemort is afaik a) not a parent and b) evil also quite possible c) totally and utterly insane - he may well have considered it a perfectly reasonable offer and one that he would in her place accept. And as for "No evil overlord is going to leave one person standing in the end" - read any work of fantasy or sci-fi, watch a film for goodness sake - Evil overlords are always making that kind of stupid mistake. Clearly if you or I decided to take over the universe we'd be much more effective than your average evil overlord, but Voldemort is prone to all the traditional evil overlord flaws, and so are his DEs. ... Leaving Harry alive (admittedly not intentional originally but he has had him at his mercy since and allowed him to escape), leaving Neville alive for that matter (if anyone has a *more* compelling reason to hunt down and try to kill V than Harry does it's got to be Neville), gloating and explaining evil plans before trying to kill your enemy - Quirrelmort does it, Riddle does it, both Lucius and Draco show signs that in that position the sound of their own voice would win out over expediency .... etc. K From burgess at cynjut.net Mon Mar 31 17:08:59 2003 From: burgess at cynjut.net (David Burgess) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 11:08:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: Magical genetics In-Reply-To: References: <001401c2f6e6$ed926320$3f7c0550@f3b7j4> Message-ID: <43596.204.248.21.50.1049130539.squirrel@www.cynjut.net> No: HPFGUIDX 54593 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: Excuse the interruption. I'm going to name each of these approaches (hopefully) for clarity. >> Catlady wrote: >> >> But I also suggest that there is also a Magic that keeps the >> total number of wizarding people constant. When a wizard or >> witch dies, their magic goes to the next suitable child born in >> their area. > Magical Hinduism. > Ffred replied: >> The only point that I'd wonder about is whether the mechanism you >> suggest would keep wizardly _numbers_ constant or the wizard:muggle >> _ratio_ constant. > Magical eeny-meeny-miney-mo distribution. >> Finwitch: >> I think that this magic keeps not the number of magical people, nor the >> ratio constant, but the amount of magic, much like the total >> amount of energy is constant. Magical Entropy. >> >> The strength of an individual may depend on *when* magic enters. Say, >> if it enters when the individual is still one single cell (rare >> event) the individual has magic everywhere in the body. Entering a >> single cell and dividing where that cell divides... >> Been watching Star Wars Episode 1 again, have we? :-) There are problems with all of these approaches. The problem with Magical Entropy is that, sooner or later, you end up with everyone being a little magic. Now, there are people that would argue that this has already happened in the Real World, but I digress. The magic by karma method is simply too random and can't sufficiently explain the Weasleys or the Malfoys. The magical distribution model actually argues for a genetic marker. If we approach the question as one of genetics, then clearly magical ability falls into the same category as hair color, or better yet, ability to play the guitar. It would be a recessive gene that would run in families, but would pop up in occasional people, and digress in others. Before anyone jumps on the guitar example - yes, I believe that musical ability is part genetic. My major instrument in college was classical guitar (performance) and I have seen plenty of examples of people that wanted desperately to learn to play and never really did. After college, I taught music for a while, and I'm here to tell you that there is no other explanation for why one child can pick up an oboe and play it like a pro in a couple of years, and another child can hit the bass drum on 1 after 1 measure. Back to the debate: Take the Lily/Petunia situation: If we assume the Evans were a non-magical family, then Lily would have been the combination of two minimally magical lines coming together to form a magic person. This would explain Lily's ability and Petunia's lack of ability. If, on the other hand, the Evans were a magical family and Petunia was a squib, the effect is still the same. If Mrs. Evans was a witch, and Mr. Evans a Muggle, then the split would be made even more sensible. All of the approaches above would work OK with the small sample (Lily/Petunia). On to the pseudo-math: if we assume that Hogwarts is the only British SWaW, and Hogwarts is the home of the entire magical person population for Britain ages 11 to 17, we find that, within their age group, about 1000 students form a seven year segment of the population. We know (from canon) that Witches and Wizards live longer than muggles (about twice as long is the rumor), so 1000 wizards is about 5% of the wizard population in Britain. That implies a wizard population of about 20,000 wizards, out of population of (approximately) 59,000,000 people, or about 0.03% of the population. That is a significantly small number. Wait, it gets better. There are approximately 6 Billion people on the planet. That means that there are about 1.8 Million wizards on the planet. That number's not unreasonable, given the numbers that attended the World Cup. If we assume that Voldemort killed a large segment of the wizard population during his reign of terror, the overall effect on world populations wouldn't have been dramatically altered. Back to the dabate again: Assuming my math is correct, then 1 person in 3000 is born a wizard. That means that the likelihood that the Weasley's could happen is something on the order of 1 in 3x10^21. The Parvati's alone would be literally a million to 1 shot. Clearly, it's more than just "Next!" or some wizard/muggle ratio. Both of these would homogenize the population. You could get random high populations, but not 9 wizards in 1 household or even communities of wizards. So, I think that magical entropy is pretty much dead out-of-the-chute. The other two distribution mechanisms would be too random to meet the needs of a mechanism that clearly runs in families. It seems that genetics would have to have at least a causal effect, if not be the reason for the entire population. -- Dave Burgess From t.forch at mail.dk Mon Mar 31 17:15:07 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 19:15:07 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Order of the Phoenix - possible meanings (Was: group not title) In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030330220508.00d6be20@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030331190929.00cb77b0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 54594 At 02:53 31-03-03 +0000, karywick wrote: >I had a thought and was wondering of if the "Order of the Phoenix" >was the name of a society or a secret group OK - sorry for boarding the thread, but I did this little piece a while back in another connection. I wanted to investigate how many meanings of 'the order of the phoenix,' I could possibly work into a short piece of text - I managed to put it in with eight different meanings in four paragraphs. I would not be surprised to find, after having read the book, that the title refers to any of a number of different orders of the phoenix. And now for the text: For many week our reporter have been under cover in the underground network of secret societies that undermine the magical community, and it a result of this daring journalistic feat that we can now - with exclusive rights for the Secret Sorceror - disclose some blood-freezing secrets: The Order of the Phoenix is a secret society. The members are all wizards whose pet familiars are all of the taxonomical Order of the Phoenix. They meet every second week in a certain restaurant that sports phoenix entablatured columns in the Order of the Phoenix where both wizards and pets eat what they wish. In this society the Phonix owner is always the grand master, and he receives the honorary title of 'the Phoenix. It is thus by the Order of the Phoenix that all the members join in paying the fire seeds that are inevitably the Order of the Phoenix. The Phoenix tells us that the group is a formidable fighting force and that during the last war most of the members even received the Order of the Phoenix. The meetings in the society are strictly regulated by the ancient rules that are set down in the Order of the Phoenix When the meeting has finished, the members carefully assemble in a line and leave the place in the order of the phoenix. Troels Forchhammer From manawydan at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 31 17:48:28 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 18:48:28 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another angle on St Mungo's References: <1049068045.16950.29219.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000601c2f7ad$bcc93120$c17d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 54595 Troels wrote: > No doubt Lucius Malfoy make donations to keep up > appearances (just see GoF ch. 36 where Fudge dismisses > family - donations to excellent causes"), but the > interesting question is how he chooses the causes > to which he makes his donations - does he have any > ulterior motives for donating to St. Mungo's instead > of any of a number of other worthy causes? > > And what about Celestina Warbeck, who apparently > also supports the hospital - is she an accomplice > of Malfoy's ? Possibly not. What JKR may be hinting at here is that the WW doesn't have an equivalent of the National Health Service and that hospitals are funded the way they used to be in the UK before 1948 - basically they were part of the voluntary sector and depended totally on public donations to keep going. There's no reference in canon to taxation (which funds the NHS in our world) and the WW does seem to have a public sector with an "old-fashioned" feel - Ministry men like Barty Crouch come across as very much like caricature civil servants of the 1920s and the radio station also suggests the Reithian BBC to me. Maybe St Mungo's _depends_ on "old money" keeping it running with donations. Maybe it doesn't have the kind of endowments which I theorise that the old families, Hogwarts, etc have to keep them going. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From sidkrisha at yahoo.com Mon Mar 31 17:42:19 2003 From: sidkrisha at yahoo.com (sidkrisha) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 17:42:19 -0000 Subject: the sorting hat problem Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54596 Hi I am sorry if this question has been addressed before already;I tried looking, but couldn't find it. I was just wondering how the Sorting Hat works. Let me explain it in detail. Say, we have 40 students entering Hogwarts each year (40 is just a number I picked for convenience) and they are gonna be sorted soon. With 4 houses in the school, I would assume that each house gets 10 people. But that might not be the case, right?? What if 20 people among the 40 are brave and loyal and all deserve to be placed in the Gryffindor house. That would mean that there could be an imbalance in the strengths of the houses. Are the school authorities okay with it? Now, let us assume that there always should be a balance in the houses. How does the Hat decide? It should know before hand how many people are there to be sorted and then based on the dominant qualities, shoud place them in the corresponding houses, right? But then, how can it make decisions as soon as a person puts the cap on? Shoudn't it wait for everyone to wear it first?? But then, maybe there is an imbalance. By the way, based on the COS, I calculated the strength at Hogwarts to be 280 (which was why I decided on the number of students per year as 40), but in another book (POA or GOF, I forget which), there is a reference to 200 people in a house. Can someone fill me on on this? Sid ; who shud probably be spending more time on his research From manawydan at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 31 18:04:53 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 19:04:53 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magical genetics References: <1049110297.1810.46520.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001c01c2f7b0$07f9a060$c17d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 54597 Finwitch wrote: > Finwitch: > I think that this magic keeps not the number of magical people, nor > the ratio constant, but the amount of magic, much like the total > amount of energy is constant. > > The strength of an individual may depend on *when* magic enters. Say, > if it enters when the individual is still one single cell (rare > event) the individual has magic everywhere in the body. Entering a > single cell and dividing where that cell divides... I think your second theory is easier to argue than the first - if there is a set magical quanta, then it would follow that the more wizards there were, the weaker they would be magically, because the magic would be spread thinner. The idea of "contagion" is I think a sound alternative to the genetic theory - because wizards have magic, then their offspring are more likely to contract it, muggle foetuses would only contract it occasionally. Sadly I doubt that canon will ever enlighten us on this one! Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 31 18:13:43 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 10:13:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: the sorting hat problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030331181343.55392.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54598 *grins* I see "Sorting Hat" and immediately have to answer it. Pet topic of mine. ;) --- Sid wrote: > I was just wondering how the Sorting Hat works. Let me explain > it in detail. Say, we have 40 students entering Hogwarts each > year (40 is just a number I picked for convenience) and they are > gonna be sorted soon. With 4 houses in the school, I would > assume that each house gets 10 people. But that might not be > the case, right?? What if 20 people among the 40 are brave and > loyal and all deserve to be placed in the Gryffindor house. That > would mean that there could be an imbalance in the strengths of > the houses. Are the school authorities okay with it? I think this is one of those situations where everything eventually evens up, even though each year might not be particularly even. I don't see anything in canon that would indicate there's a particular problem with one House having a lot more students in any given year. The reason for double classes (Potions with Slytherin, etc) might be to account for overflow from particularly large classes and filling up particularly small ones. Since we only hear about eight - ten Gryffindors in Harry's year, in order to have that 200 people per House, you'd have to assume that either there's a whole group of Gryffindors not mentioned OR Harry's year is a small one for Gryffindor and they're thus given classes with other Houses to fill in the gaps. However, I think that the system works itself out eventually. If there are a particularly small number of one House at a Sorting, the next year might steer more borderline students (who would do equally well in more than one House) towards the House that's a bit thin. And along the same lines, a House that was bursting with first years one year might have borderline students steered away from it the following year, just to even out the numbers. Thus *overall*, the Houses are approximately equal in number, no matter what the fluctuations from year to year. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Mon Mar 31 18:20:23 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 18:20:23 -0000 Subject: Tourney Journey (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54599 Tourney Journey (GoF, Chap. 12) To the tune of Razzle Dazzle from Chicago Dedicated to GilPlum THE SCENE: The Great Hall. During the start-of term feast, DUMBLEDORE announces plans for upcoming year DUMBLEDORE (spoken) We are to have the honor of hosting a very exciting event over the coming months, an event that has not been held for over a century .. (music) This year we'll hold Tourney Journey Tourney turn we to So as to boost collegiality We'll bring back games with high mortality Restore old-time hocus pocus New traditions now Soon you will see the sequel that we'll host Students will do feats of daring As Rowling leaves a few red herrings Tourney Journey now Soon three champions will boast CHORUS OF STUDENTS We're gonna hold Tourney Journey Tourney turn we to Hogwarts is makin' it more feasible To compete in the Axis-Weasel-Bowl Don't tout them old Durmstrang Teutons We'll cork Korkaroff They'll be no need to bother keeping score MALES ONLY We'll play the babes from brash Beauxbaton They'll be impressed by our nice long wands FEMALES ONLY Tourney Journey we As in legends of yore! DUMBLEDORE The champ will win Tri-Wiz prizes Thousand Galleons But if you're not a seventeen-year-old Then an age line unseen will unfold It will be a three-feat Tourney Simply staggerin' Who will compete in this great test of skill? You will learn just what Corny Fudge meant, "It's gonna be impartial judgment" Learn who Tourneys here Oh, the crowds they will thrill! DUMBLEDORE & CHORUS Give 'em the old Tourney Journey Tourney Journey now Show 'em the first-rate sorcerer you are Vic'try will be a great achievement Hopefully earned without bereavement Tourney Journey now Tourney Journey now Tourney Journey now And we'll make you a star! MOODY (aside) Get the kid with the scar! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com Mon Mar 31 19:41:50 2003 From: mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com (Edward Post) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 14:41:50 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The trouble with Neville Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54600 imamommy wrote: Doesn't it seem odd that Ron and Neville, who seem more >loyal than courageous, and Hermione, who has cleverness in spades, >were placed in Gryffindor? I think they must be there to help Harry; >I think also that they each will have further tests of courage to >come. After all, the Sorting Hat is an impartial judge. Does anyone >have any ideas on this, or can tell me if it has been discussed >before? >Thanks, >imamommy > > Mr. Ed replies: That theory has a loose end: Hermione was sorted before Harry was. Only if the Hat was playing with Harry about considering Slytherin (which is entirely possible) will that make sense. Of course, Ron was sorted after Harry. Mr. Ed _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 31 20:16:57 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 20:16:57 -0000 Subject: the sorting hat problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54601 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sidkrisha" wrote: > Hi > > ...edited.. > > I was just wondering how the Sorting Hat works. Let me explain > it in detail. Say, we have 40 students entering Hogwarts each > year (40 is just a number I picked for convenience) and they are > gonna be sorted soon. With 4 houses in the school, I would > assume that each house gets 10 people. > > ...edited.... > bboy_mn: There is no reason that the house numbers have to be balanced, and I don't think the Sorting Hat 'fudges' (adjusts) it's judgment in an attempt to strike a balance. There was a discussion recently that concluded that the bulk of the students go to Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw, and that Slytherin and Gryffindor are much less common personality types. I'm inclinded to agree with this belief. I think there are a lot more people who are driven by a strong work ethic and intellect excellence than there are people who are obssessively driven by self-serving ambition, or people who display a fierce unwavering loyalty and bravery. All I have to do is look at the world around me and I can see that this is true. So I suspect that the houses are constantly out of balance, although across 10 centuries, the averages could come out closer to even than any 'moment in time' calculation might indicate. Overal, though, I think Slytherin and Gryffindor are alway in a minority. > Sid continues: > > By the way, based on the COS, I calculated the strength at > Hogwarts to be 280 (which was why I decided on the number of > students per year as 40), but in another book (POA or GOF, I > forget which), there is a reference to 200 people in a house. Can > someone fill me on on this? > > Sid bboy_mn: Now you are opening up a can of worms. The number of student in the school has been debated and calculated in every possible way imaginable, and no one has ever reach a definitive conclusion. The numbers simple can't and don't add up. (This, and equally so, the number of wizards in the wizard world.) JKR said that there were about 1,000 students at Hogwarts. Personally, I don't take that as an absolute number. I take is as a general indication of the relative size of the school. To me, a school with a relative size of 1,000 means anything from 500 to 1200. I guess you could look at it as more like the capacity of the school rather than the immediate enrollment. Most people do seem to agree that Harry's class year enrollment is smaller than average. In the end, the best guess of the school size is not what do you calculate it to be, but how big does it seem. What is your impression of the size when you read the story? I think this is the crucial factor because JKR is under no obligation to make any calculated aspect of the story add up after the fact; her primary objective it to make you believe it when you read it. So when you read it, what was your impression of the size? Most people who have tried to blend all the information (facts, and figures) with general impressions have concluded that the current size is in the range of 400 to 600. Again, those numbers are not provable, they are not facts; they are SOME peoples impression. If you go back to approximately Feb 5, 2003, you will find two or three threads related to the number of students at Hogwarts. Here is a link to the start of one of those threads. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/51690 Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Mon Mar 31 18:06:31 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 18:06:31 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Pop (was: the sorting hat problem) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54602 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sidkrisha" wrote: > By the way, based on the COS, I calculated the strength at > Hogwarts to be 280 (which was why I decided on the number of > students per year as 40), but in another book (POA or GOF, I > forget which), there is a reference to 200 people in a house. Can > someone fill me on on this? > > Sid ; who shud probably be spending more time on his research Well, Sid This particular issue has been the subject of much (much!) debate. Offically, JK has said that there around 1000 students at Hogwarts. With 200 in a house, that puts it at 800. Though most people arrive at or arround the 280 you mentioned when you actually try and calculate it. My own personal theory: That the 800-1000 is correct. That when the students are sorted, they aren't only sorted into houses, but into groups (Group A and B). Group A is the upper half and group b is the lower half (in terms of academic ability). Harry (and the rest) are in group A and since that is who Harry is around all the time, that's who we hear about. Group B simply act as background players. Serena From burgess at cynjut.net Mon Mar 31 18:51:31 2003 From: burgess at cynjut.net (David Burgess) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 12:51:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?) In-Reply-To: <3E8877F8.000001.16543@monica> References: <3E8877F8.000001.16543@monica> Message-ID: <45378.204.248.21.50.1049136691.squirrel@www.cynjut.net> No: HPFGUIDX 54603 > > K - > > But Harry's protection came from Lily giving her life to protect him - > if there had been no possibility of Lily being spared then I don't see > how that would work. There is no suggestion that *James'* sacrifice gave > Harry any measure of protection even though he clearly made a decision > to stay and fight rather than try and run. > > James stood his ground to try and give Lily and Harry a chance to escape > even knowing (as he must have done) that he couldn't defeat Voldemort. > Lily offered her life to save Harry. *Lily* is the one credited with > giving Harry the protection so there must be some difference between > their sacrifices. Obviously (to me any way) it is that James was going > to die anyway, he was one of Voldeomrt's targets, Lily wasn't. My reading of GoF leads me to believe that Lily's protection was based on more than just her sacrifice to save Harry. Their interactions in the graveyard give us several hints, including Voldemort's description of the "ancient magic" that had imparted onto Harry a protective "shield" that killed Quirrell in PS/SS and which Voldemort was pretty self-impressed after he came out of the cauldron. There is, as I recall, a mention of Voldemort's own "ancient magic" spells that kept him from being destroyed by his own Kervada spell when it backfired. He had dabbled in so much Ancient Magic that is appearance and demeanor had changed to the point that his friends and classmates from Hogwarts couldn't even recognize him 40-50 years later. > > Note Voldemort's response to Lily's offer. She begs him to take her > instead - he doesn't say "what do you mean instead you stupid > woman, I'm here for all of you!". Equally he doesn't just AK her > and carry on to Harry. He gives her the chance to stand aside - I admit > Voldemort probably isn't the most trustworthy of individuals but why > make the offer if he didn't (at least at the moment he made it) intend > to honour it. It really would have been just as simple to kill her and > step over the body. Whether we could ever seriously expect a parent to > accept such an offer is totally irrelevent to whether the offer is made > seriously. Voldemort is afaik a) not a parent and b) evil also quite > possible c) totally and utterly insane - he may well have considered it > a perfectly reasonable offer and one that he would in her place accept. I'm not convinced that all of the assumptions that Lily was offered anything are correct. If killing Harry was Voldemort's only real agenda item, he might have made the same offer to James. The canon isn't completely clear on this issue. It's possible that his sole intent was to kill Harry, and if the parents got in the way, tough. Even being a powerful wizard, I would think that AK would take something out of the wizard that cast it. Three of these in the space of a couple of minutes (Lily didn't get very far) might put a strain on the old AK muscles, if you know what I mean. It's like shooting a big rifle - you can do it once easily, but every time after that takes a little more effort. JKR has made it clear in interviews that Voldemort ("Death Stealer", in French, in case anyone doesn't know) represents pure evil, in its most basic and frightening form. Her intent has always been to make Voldemort as sociopathic as possible, in part to scare teenagers, but also in part to make him a complicated and interesting character. The fact that we're all sitting around debating his motives and drives as if was a real person is (IMHO) testimony to her success. It doesn't take much, in the way of research, to find plenty of examples of what we could call "acts of pure evil" where a child or a mother is killed, yet the rest of the family was spared. Look to West Africa or Southeast Asia and you'll see examples in every village. These could be the kernel of what this entire exchange was based on. My own take on this is that killing Harry was not so much a method of averting a prophecy as it was a way to accomplish something. I'm not sure what yet, but I suspect that we'll find out sometime in the next three books. The problem I have with the prophecy theories is that they are based on some faceless mystic that may or may not have made some dire prediction. I just don't see this happening in the Potterverse of JKR. One of the things that she finds satisfying, and that I find satisfying about her writing, is that she seems to know what's going on, and let's us know in suntle ways that, even though she hasn't really told us anything, she knows and we'll find out what we need. This phantom soothsayer doesn't seem to have exited to this point. -- Dave Burgess From ladyfarro at attbi.com Mon Mar 31 03:16:41 2003 From: ladyfarro at attbi.com (kae) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 19:16:41 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New/Old Friends? References: Message-ID: <001201c2f7bf$51dac060$3caae10c@attbi.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54604 I don't think we're giving the specifics of the relationship that the Dursleys have had with the Figg woman. It seems that she was a neighbor who may have volunteered to watch Harry when the Dursleys took Dudley and his friends out to celebrate Dudley's birthday. Do you recall when Harry first came into the Leaky Cauldron with Hagrid, he met several people he recognized whom he had seen in shops when he was with Petunia and Dudley? We here nothing of these people until Goblet Of Fire. It will be interesting seeing what happens next. Lady Farro From hphgrwlca at yahoo.com Mon Mar 31 20:59:10 2003 From: hphgrwlca at yahoo.com (Christine Acker) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 12:59:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Nitwit-Oddment-Blubber-Tweak In-Reply-To: <1049110297.1810.46520.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030331205910.83072.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54605 Tammy Rizzo wrote: Or, if it was a singular occasion, what are the chances that D's 'few words' may have been some kind of trigger for a spell, set at some earlier time, in preparation for Harry's life at Hogwarts? After all, what ARE the chances that anyone would utter those four words strung like that in any normal conversation? I write: Whoohoo! I've only been a member for a few months and haven't seen this thread before, but find it utterly fascinating. I have a few comments and a theory: Comments: JKR does not put stuff in her book for no reason. Well, you might ask, what if it is there for a reason: to convey the sense of whimsy that pervades the WW? I answer, there's a lot of other stuff to show that whimsy. I personally believe this is a spell to protect Harry. Theory: Even though most spells are Latin-based, not all must be. Those that are were most likely created back when Latin was much more prevalent, and even as long ago as when it was actually spoken. But there have been numerous new spells created since then. They may have roots in Latin, but they don't have to, especially now since Latin is (mostly) dead. My point is, Harry has been well-protected all his life. We know there are wards on the Dursleys' and protection at Hogwarts he doesn't know about. Dumbledore is the most powerful wizard of the age- he was probably part of the force creating protection for Harry. What if he wrote that spell? It would be a brilliant idea-throw in your own little safety measure, and mask it so no one sees it for what it really is, just yet another quirk of your personality. That's the kind of thing DD would eat up. Any thoughts? Christine, who has just finished reading Hamlet (sorry no punctuation) in English 4 and was surprised to find herself thouroughly engrossed __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 31 21:05:26 2003 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (Catherine Coleman) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 21:05:26 -0000 Subject: Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?) In-Reply-To: <45378.204.248.21.50.1049136691.squirrel@www.cynjut.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54606 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David Burgess" wrote: > I'm not convinced that all of the assumptions that Lily was offered > anything are correct. If killing Harry was Voldemort's only real agenda > item, he might have made the same offer to James. The canon isn't > completely clear on this issue. It's possible that his sole intent was to > kill Harry, and if the parents got in the way, tough. It's possible you are right, but this line in PoA, gave me pause for thought, and convinced me that it was something about the Potters themselves, which would not include Lily: The Shrieking Shack - a couple of quotes from Sirius: "It must have been the finest moment of your miserable life, telling Voldemort you could hand him the Potters." and later: "...ready to strike the moment he could be sure of allies...to deliver the last of the Potters to them." The last of the Potters - persuasive, if not conclusive. Catherine From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 31 21:18:46 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 13:18:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hogwarts Pop (was: the sorting hat problem) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030331211846.71600.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54607 --- Serena Moonsilver wrote: > My own personal theory: That the 800-1000 is correct. That when the > students are sorted, they aren't only sorted into houses, but into > groups (Group A and B). Group A is the upper half and group b is the > lower half (in terms of academic ability). Harry (and the rest) are > in group A and since that is who Harry is around all the time, that's > who we hear about. Group B simply act as background players. Hrm. I agree with the basic presumption that the years are divided up into two or more groups, and we've only seen Harry's group (and the matching Slytherins) with any kind of regularity. However, I don't like the ideas either that the Sorting Hat was responsible for the division or that the division is in terms of academic ability. 1.) If the Sorting Hat was responsible for the division, why doesn't it call out, "Gryffindor, A!" instead of just the House name? It goes against everything we've seen of the Hat to think it's somehow transcribing a list (with...what, exactly? *g* No hands) while sorting the students that is later given to the professors with everyone's "group assignments". So any group division is, IMO, far more likely to be done by the professors, not the Hat. 2.) Likewise, we've seen absolutely no indication that Harry's particular group is the "cream of the crop". Yes, Hermione's in it. However, so is Neville, who does abyssmally in most classes. As is Seamus, who manages to blow up a feather rather than levitate it. For that matter, Ron and Harry routinely make up answers to their Divination homework. While I don't think any of these kids are dumb, I don't think they're necessarily the brightest of Gryffindor. (Though that may explain how wizards like Stan and Ern went to Hogwarts. *g*) Oh, and I'd assume that groups are put together in joined classes -- you wouldn't want the smart Hufflepuffs and dumb Gryffindors together, after all. You'd want to keep to roughly the same level, if that's how people are divided. So Crabbe and Goyle are the cream of the crop in Slytherin? God help us all. ;) I think any divisions would be made on a purely random or arbitrary means while putting together the timetables. ("All right, all names with an odd number of letters go in Group A and all names with an even number of letters go in Group B, unless you were born on a full moon during a Leap Year or a month with no vowels in in." -- Hey, who said it had to be a *logical* division? *g*) Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com Mon Mar 31 21:21:23 2003 From: mr_ed20854 at hotmail.com (Edward Post) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 16:21:23 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Longbottems (was OoP Book Covers also The certian room) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54608 Finwitch wrote: SNIP >You know... If you don't need a mind to Keep the secret, then the >secret is safest to be put into a Dementor-Kissed person! It is >possible the Secret Keeper takes the secret to the grave - in which >case the DEs would just *kill* anyone knowing secrets they don't want >known by anyone. >SNIP >-- Finwitch > > Prompting me to ask: In the scene in which we're first told about the Secret Keeper bit o'magic, wasn't it explained that the secret is stored NOT in one's memory/mind, but rather the secret is stored in a single living person's soul? If I'm accurate, Dementors' victims aren't candidates as they've had their souls sucked out of them. They still have brains but no soul. Mr. Ed _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 31 21:55:20 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 21:55:20 -0000 Subject: Voldemort & Lily (was: Whose prophecy?) In-Reply-To: <3E8877F8.000001.16543@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54609 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > > > > Troels> > > > > ...edited... What I would really like to have explained is why on > > earth he would want to save Lily - why did he attempt to get her > > move over? > > > > ...edited... > > > > We need a far more compelling reason for Voldemort to wish to > > spare Lily. > > > > ...edited... > > > > bboy_mn: > > What makes you think Voldemort wanted to spare Lily or that he would > have? > > I don't recall anything in the actual event of Lily and James's > death that indicates that Voldemort had any intention of sparing > Lily. > > <...edited...> > > > K - (Kathryn): > > But Harry's protection came from Lily giving her life to protect > him - if there had been no possibility of Lily being spared then I > don't see how that would work. > bboy_mn: I think Voldemort's offer is independant of Lily's sacrifice. She could have cowered in the corner paralized by fear while Voldemort tried to kill Harry. In that case, her actions mean nothing regardless of whether Voldemort intended to kill her or not. It was the fact that she chose to stand and fight to the death rather than yeild. Not yeild to Voldemort's offer, but to not yeild in any way, shape, or form under any circumstances. Some people refer to Lily's protection as 'the love shield'. Although that is intended to refer to the result, it also refers to Lily's actions. She sheilded Harry with her own body, she would die before she would allow Voldemort to get to Harry. Ron and Hermione did the same thing in the Shrieking Shack. They stood between Harry and Sirius and said, you will have to kill us before we will let you kill Harry. There was no stated or implied offer to spare them, but that doesn't diminish the nobility of their actions or the love that it reflects. It's this fierce determination to protect Harry, to love another life, Harry's, more than you love your own, that left a lingering protection in Harry. It was the fact that she chose to stand and fight to the death rather than yeild; to fight against hopeless odd, to defend even when no defense was possible. If you think about it this is pretty much a description of every situation Harry has ever been in. He is always hopelessly out number, hopelessly out gunned and overpowered, but he continues to fight even when it is hopeless, he continues to defend even when there is no defense. Even in the face of defeat, Harry does not accept defeat. No matter how lost the battle, he continues to fight because it is the right thing to do. That one theme of never giving up, of never accepting defeat occurs thoughout the books, and it mirrors Lily's sacrife. Lily would rather die fighting than to accept the obvious and inevitable defeat, and in doing so, in using her own body to shield Harry even when she knew it was hopeless, she unknowingly provided the very protection Harry needed. So where is the love, you ask? It is Lily's (and Hermione's and Ron's) undying love for Harry that gave her (them) the strength, the determination, and the courage to stand and fight in the face of hopeless defeat. The nobility of loving another more than you love life itself is the spiritual magic at the very heart of 'undying love'. Lily's love, in this case, truly was 'undying love', even after her death, her loved live on and protected Harry, and though Voldemort has found a minor loophole, I think the love of Lily and James, and the many other people who love Harry, still protects him in ways that we have yet to understand. > Kathryn continues: > > There is no suggestion that *James'* sacrifice gave Harry any > measure of protection even though he clearly made a decision to > stay and fight rather than try and run. > bboy_mn: I can't agree with the statement the Jame's sacrifice gave Harry NO protection. I think Lily's was more significant because she literally stood between Harry and death, and shielded him. True James also shield Harry, but more so he stood at the front door trying to protect his whole family and himself. While they both sacrificed their lives to protect Harry, Lily's sacrifice was more immediate. > Kathryn continues: > > Note Voldemort's response to Lily's offer. She begs him to take > her instead - he doesn't say "what do you mean instead you stupid > woman, I'm here for all of you!". > bboy_mn: Situations like this are rarely a time for detailed analytical conversations, so it is unlikely that Voldemort wass going to spell out his motives or intensions in detail. I still say that Voldemort dismissed Lily as insignificant, and in doing that, he overlook the MOST significant aspect of the situation. > Kathryn continues: > > Equally he doesn't just AK her and carry on to Harry. He gives > her the chance to stand aside - > bboy_mn: Again, my read is that Voldemort sees Lily as insignificant. First he dismisses her, 'step aside', and when she doesn't, she goes from being insignificant to being an annoyance that stands between him and his objective, so he does exactly what you suggest, he AK's her and carries on to Harry. > Kathryn continues: > > Whether we could ever seriously expect a parent to accept such an > offer is totally irrelevent to whether the offer is made seriously. > bboy_mn: You are ASSUMING that 'step aside' is an offer, and not a command; just as I am assuming that it is indeed a command given to someone who stands between Voldemort and his objective. Did he ask her to step aside, or did he tell her to step aside? > Kathryn continues: > > ... he (Voldemort) may well have considered it a perfectly > reasonable offer and one that he would in her place accept. > bboy_mn: Well, on this point I agree. Voldemort isn't the most rational or reasonable person. But I still go back to Lily being insignificant. Assuming he was successful, after he killed Harry, Lily's life would hang on nothing more than Voldemort's whim. Kill her or not kill her would have been as significant as whether or not to swat at an annoying fly. > Kathryn continues: > > And as for "No evil overlord is going to leave one person standing > in the end" - read any work of fantasy or sci-fi, watch a film for > goodness sake - Evil overlords are always making that kind of stupid > mistake. > bboy_mn: Here again, I agree with you. However, I once again go back to Lily being insignicant in Voldemort's mind. Leaving her alive or dead after the fact would be of no significants to his objective. If he killed her it would because the lives of other people mean nothing to him, they are annoying flies that are either kill or ignored. > Kathryn continues: > > > ... Leaving Harry alive ... , leaving Neville alive for that matter > > K bboy_mn: Big difference between leaving Harry alive which Voldemort had no intension of doing, and leaving Neville alive. Neville was like Lily, he was insignificant, as long as Neville didn't become an annoyance, an inconvinience, or an obstical to his objective, Voldemort wouldn't give Neville a second thought. [Although, I point out that Voldemort and Neville never met; however, it still serves as a valid illustration of the point you were trying to make.] Just a few more thoughts. bboy_mn From magsthomas at yahoo.com Mon Mar 31 22:11:06 2003 From: magsthomas at yahoo.com (Margaret Thomas) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 14:11:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Order of the Phoenix (group not title) In-Reply-To: <1049110297.1810.46520.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030331221106.10776.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54610 --- HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com wrote: > Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 02:53:34 -0000 > From: "karywick" > Subject: Order of the Phoenix (group not title) > > I had a thought and was wondering of if the "Order > of the Phoenix" > was the name of a society or a secret group [snip] > read all of the posts on > Fawkes and although > it is canon that he has only given two tail feathers > to make wands [snip] This post prompted me to think further about the meanings of "order" and how it might be interpreted. To date, I've anticipated that "Order of the Phoenix" refers to some manner of secret wizarding society, one that is in one or more ways connected to Dumbledore, Fawkes, Godric Gryffindor, and (ostensibly) Harry -- perhaps extending to others in the "old crowd." But sometimes having a quick glance at something you've seen before causes new and unexpected ideas to develop! Perhaps "order" (also?) has something to do with the instance of Priori Incantatem we see near the end of GoF. Two wands, each with a feathered core originating from the same phoenix, engage in a duel. Harry's wand -- and Harry himself as a result -- establishes order (in this case meaning "authority") over its brother. Might this instance of Priori Incantatem have greater significance than simply letting us see Voldemort's previous victims? (appearing in arguable order ;) oooh, bad pun, but couldn't help myself) Time will tell :) and only (roughly) 80 days to go! :) - Mags __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Mon Mar 31 22:19:03 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 22:19:03 -0000 Subject: The trouble with Neville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54611 imamommy wrote: Doesn't it seem odd that Ron and Neville, who seem more loyal than courageous, and Hermione, who has cleverness in spades, were placed in Gryffindor? I think they must be there to help Harry; I think also that they each will have further tests of courage to come. After all, the Sorting Hat is an impartial judge. Does anyone have any ideas on this, or can tell me if it has been discussed before? Mr. Ed replies: That theory has a loose end: Hermione was sorted before Harry was. Only if the Hat was playing with Harry about considering Slytherin (which is entirely possible) will that make sense. Of course, Ron was sorted after Harry. Now me, Fred Waldrop replies; I don't know if this will answer your question (or if you will except this answer), but this is how I see it: (HP CoS page 333, US) "So I should be in Slytherin," Harry said, looking desperately into Dumbledore's face. "The Sorting Hat could see Slytherin's power in me, and it - " "Put you in Gryffindor," said Dumbledore calmly. "Listen to me Harry". "You happen to have many qualities Salazar Slytherin prized in his hand-picked students". "Yet the Sorting Hat put you in Gryffindor. You know why that was? Think." "It only put me in Gryffindor," said Harry in a defeated voice, "because I asked not to go in Slytherin...." "Exactly," said Dumbledore, beaming once more. "Which makes you very different from Tom Riddle. "It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than oure abilites." So, if it is the "choices" that one makes instead of their abilities, it really does not matter that Neville was a "Great Wizard" or "not", but that he had the Griffindor Want, for lack of another word, inside him. He wanted so much to be in Griffindor, the Sorting hat knew he would only Bloom proper in this house. If you are put in a house you do not want to be in, even if you are better suited for it, you will not do well. What did Ron say? "If they put me in Slytherin, I would go back to the train." (I do not have the book right here, but it is close to what he said) And what good would it be to put someone in a house when all they will do is sulk and not even try? Also, Neville shows bravery when he stands up to Crabbe & Goyle, (chapter 13, pg 224) by himself no less(while Ron fought Malfoy)at the Quidditch match; "Ron snapped. Before Malfoy knew what was happening, Ron was on top of him, wrestling him to the ground. Neville hesitated, then clambered over the back of the seat to help." "She didn't even notice Malfoy and Ron rolling around under her seat, or the scuffles and yelps coming from the whirl of fist that was Neville, Crabbe, and Goyle." Another example of Nevilles courage is when he stood up to HHR, when they went to stop Quirrel/Voldermort. And Ron shows great courage when he is willing to sacrafice himself during the chess game when HHR went down the trapdoor to stop Quirrel/Voldermort also. So, maybe they do have some of the stuff needed to be in Gryffindor. Fred From abigailnus at yahoo.com Mon Mar 31 23:01:03 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 23:01:03 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Humpty-Dumptying the Bangs (or not) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54612 Note: Some of Derannimer's comments in this post are quoted or derived from a private e-mail. Derannimer drags a by-now rather flushed Abigail into a reasonably private corner of the Royal George. She looks mildly flustered. "You keep saying that word!" She hisses. "I do not think it means what you think it means!" "What word?" Abigail asks, confused. "Well, a phrase actually. Humpty-Dumptying the Bangs! It doesn't mean excessive Banging." Derannimer sighs. "The term started at some point during the Great MATCHING ARMCHAIR Neville Debate, between Elkins and Cindy. Elkins said that MATCHING ARMCHAIR didn't Bang, whereupon Cindy said something like: 'I've been Banging since before you were *born!* I am the *Queen* of Banging! It Bangs if I *say* it Bangs!' Whereupon Elkins accused her of Humpty-Dumptying the Bangs, which is a reference to Alice in Wonderland where Humpty Dumpty is using all these words inacurately, and Alice mentions his. . . odd use of the language, and he replies: 'Words mean what I want them to mean.' So all "Humpty-Dumptying the Bangs" meant--it was just a throwaway line, really--was "Captain Cindy taking it upon herself to be the sole arbiter of Bang-worthiness." Abigail stares at Derannimer silently for a few minutes, as two spots of color bloom on her cheeks. "Oh." She says finally. "How embarassing." "I can't imagine what got into Cindy, though. Going along with it." Muses Derannimer. "Yes." Abigail says, obviously keen to get off the subject. "It was almost as if she couldn't help herself. Must be the heat in here. It's very stuffy." "I wouldn't have said anything." Derannimer says apologetically. "But you mentioned it a second time to Pippin. You kept insisting that the phrase meant what you thought it meant. Hey!" She brightens up. "I guess we could say that you were Humpty-Dumptying 'Humpty-Dumptying the Bangs'! Get it?" Abigail chooses not to respond, and instead says, "It still seems to me as though there should be a term for excessive Banging." "Try telling that to the Captain." Derannimer replies. "She probably won't even admit such a thing is possible." But Abigail doesn't seem to be listening. She's rummaging through her many pockets, throwing out pieces of lint, crumpled grocery lists and a small terrier which quickly scurries away. Finally, she digs out a small device, which looks like a cross between an adding machine and a cuisinart. "Is that a..." Derannimer gasps. "Yup." Abigail beams. "A miniature acronym generator. It's an experimental prototype, very tempermental, and given to somewhat... mixed results. But it's served me in good stead." She gives the odd contraption a friendly pat, and then proceeds to punch buttons and pull levers. The acronym generator whirrs, beeps, wheezes, and plays a jaunty little tune. Then a thin strip of paper emerges. Abigail tears it off and reads. "DIMINISHING CAPACITY: Death In Massive Increments Negates Its Supposed Horror - EveryDay Corpses And Perpetual Atrocities Cause Indifference To amplifY" "It fudged it a bit at the end." Derannimer points out. "Well, this is only a beta version." Abigail says sadly. "If you've got something better I'll be glad to hear it." "No, I suppose this will do." "Good." Abigail smiles. "Then you can go show it the Captain." "Why me?" "Well, you *are* a Big Banger." "But you brought it up in the first place. You go." "No, you go." "No, *you*." This might take a while. Abigail Who would like to thank Derannimer for the correction. From abigailnus at yahoo.com Mon Mar 31 23:09:20 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 23:09:20 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Humpty-Dumptying the Bangs (or not) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54613 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "abigailnus" wrote: > "DIMINISHING CAPACITY: Death In Massive Increments Negates Its Supposed Horror - EveryDay Corpses And Perpetual Atrocities Cause Indifference To amplifY" Oops. I'm piling error upon error here. The acronym, as keen-eyed listies will have noticed, is obviously DIMINISHED CAPACITY, which at 2 o'clock in the moring, may be what I'm suffering from. Abigail From andie at knownet.net Mon Mar 31 23:54:32 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 23:54:32 -0000 Subject: Filch vs. House Elves Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54614 I was just listening to CoS again, and I came to the part where Harry gets in trouble for slopping mud all over the floor as a result of Quidditch practice. This is when he finds out that Filch is a squib, and Harry gets invited to Nick's Death-Day Party. Anyway, I believe that Filch is so angry with Harry because he doesn't feel good and he now has to scrub the floors for an extra hour. My question is... what about the House Elves? Aren't they the ones that wander the castle making sure things are clean? Aside from keeping an eye on students, is cleaning one of Filch's main jobs? If so, why? You'd think that the hundred or so house elves would be able to handle the castle... even with the extra mud! Sorry if this has been discussed or covered before, but it just occurred to me today. grindieloe From rvotaw at i-55.com Mon Mar 31 23:58:40 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 17:58:40 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Whose prophecy? (was Re: Why Harry?) References: Message-ID: <003901c2f7e1$8cbe01c0$62a0cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 54615 bboy_mn: > What makes you think Voldemort wanted to spare Lily or that he would have? I'm not entirely convinced one way or another, but the strongest evidence to me isn't Harry's flashback of Voldemort telling Lily to stand aside. It's Voldemort (SS/PS) telling Harry ". . . your mother needn't have died . . . she was trying to protect you . . . " This implies that Voldemort had no intentions of killing Lily. This could be something as simple as not wanting his wand to overheat from too many AK's back to back, or something else entirely. Which could consist of anything from promising one of his DE's to spare her, to bribing Peter Pettigrew with Lily's life, to who knows what. Or it could just be a matter of wording that isn't really meant to imply anything at all. There's a lot of "ifs" involved here. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Mon Mar 31 21:50:25 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 21:50:25 -0000 Subject: Filk: The Gilderoy Lockhart Song Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 54617 This is a filk (my first ever!) based on the song, "The Elephant" by Flanders & Swann (a very funny song in it's own right!) Enjoy. Mlle Bienvenu ----------------------------------------- Being a famous sorcerer is incredible, not slow I've been a sorcerer all me life so I blooming well ought to know. They never forget my name or face, ooooh! They follow me from place to place, ooooh! I, of course, am smiling wide And gracefully will swell with pride the publicity that spreads my fame from all the books that bear my name, ooooh! And all because a perfect smile got me in Witch Weekly. But that wasn't enough for me! So I'm suffering from amnesia My mind's a perfect blank! Now life is very much easier And Weasley's wand's to thank; I'm being psychoanalyzed, I lie on a divan And flash a smile and try to look charming as I can! I'm an Extroverted, Gilderoy-centric, megalomaniac, And I'll stick in St Mungo's hospital till I get me memory back! I'm a kleptomaniac, My charm, it never fails, Obliviating their memories So I can spin me tales; I've stolen their achievements The world will never guess That ugly witches and wizards Are the secret to success! I'm an Extroverted, Gilderoy-centric, kleptomaniac, And I'll stick in St.Mungo's Hospital till I get me memory back! I suffer from megalomania Head's as wide as it is long Now I'm off to save Armenia (or, that's what I tell the throng.) I've saved them all from werewolves (or at least that's what I wrote) They never guess that all the time I'm laughing in me throat! I'm an Extroverted, Gilderoy-centric, Megalomaniac, And I'll stick in St. Mungo's Hospital till I get me memory back! (Hums very badly) Practicing me charming winning smile! (More humming very badly) And I'll stick in St. Mungo's Hospital till I get me memory, get me memory, get me memory back! From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Mon Mar 31 00:06:13 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 18:06:13 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Filch vs. House Elves References: Message-ID: <3E878675.3998689E@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 54618 grindieloe wrote: > > I was just listening to CoS again, and I came to the part where Harry > gets in trouble for slopping mud all over the floor as a result of > Quidditch practice. This is when he finds out that Filch is a squib, > and Harry gets invited to Nick's Death-Day Party. > > Anyway, I believe that Filch is so angry with Harry because he > doesn't feel good and he now has to scrub the floors for an extra > hour. My question is... what about the House Elves? Aren't they the > ones that wander the castle making sure things are clean? Aside from > keeping an eye on students, is cleaning one of Filch's main jobs? If > so, why? You'd think that the hundred or so house elves would be > able to handle the castle... even with the extra mud! > > Sorry if this has been discussed or covered before, but it just > occurred to me today. > > grindieloe > > Well, if the house elves do everything, what's left for punishing naughty students? At any rate, figuring out how many house elves there are at Hoggwarts is as bad as trying to figure out the number of students. Plus, those lavish meals take a lot of elf power. Look at how many ot took to bring trays of food to the boys, for example. Plus, there's prob some that help Hagrid with the grounds, gather / shop for / arrange for foodstuffs or supplies. Maybe some who handle repairs to plumbing or such. Could be that there is in fact more 'work' then can be done just by house elves, so they are more then happy to let people use that work for punishment for those 'bad boys' (grin) Jazmyn