"Re: hearing voices" <-- imagined? & text of the voices

[nobodysrib]

No: HPFGUIDX 53199

Hobbit-guy wrote:

> There's been a lot of speculation lately about the identity of the 
> people that Harry hears when he hears his parents' death. [mentions 
> speculations of Voldemort, Pettigrew, Snape, Lily, Sirius, etc.] 
<snip>
> 
> Harry doesn't recognize the voices he hears.  In my opinion, this 
> rules out Snape, Lupin, and Dumbledore AT LEAST from being at the 
> scene..  [later he also rules out Sirius and Pettigrew.] <snip>  
> The quotes don't say he heard anybody he knows, and IMNSHO, he'd 
> probably recognize any of these people's voices at once.  
> 
<snip>
> The "stand aside" voice is described as high and cold, which makes 
me 99.735% certain that it's Voldemort saying this.  If anybody who's 
got PoA handy could check this out, I'd be grateful.

Me:

Good point on recognizing the voices.  I'd like to also add in that 
he has heard Voldemort's voice before - via Quirrell's turban.  Now, 
it can be argued that his voice may be different in the turban, and I 
just loaned out my copy of SS, but I remember his voice being 
described similarly to Harry's voices.

And I do have PoA handy, so here's what I found, with a few comments 
inserted from me: 

1) on the Quidditch field:
> "Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry"
> "Stand aside, you silly little girl... stand aside now..."
> "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead -"
> Numbing, swirling white mist was filling Harry's brain... What was 
> he doing?  Why was he flying?  He needed to help her but... She was 
> going to die... She was going to be murdered...  He was falling 
> through the icy mist.
> "Not Harry!  Please... have mercy... have mercy..."
> A shrill voice was laughing, the woman was screaming, and Harry 
> knew no more.
 - US Hardcover PoA, page 179 

> "When they get near me, I can hear Voldemort murdering my mum," 
> Harry to Lupin, about the above incident.  page 187

I'd like to point out here that Harry does not replay the 
conversation and then get told by someone what he was overhearing.  
He either just *knows* or *assumes* what he has heard is Lily and 
Voldemort.


2) Patronus lessons with Lupin, incident 1:
> "Not Harry!  Not Harry!  Please, I'll do anything - "
> "Stand aside.  Stand aside, girl!"
  - page 239

3) Patronus lessons with Lupin, incident 2:
> ... then came a new voice, a man's voice, shouting, panicking -
> "Lily, take Harry and go!  It's him!  I'll hold him off -"
> The sounds of someone stumbling from a room - a door bursting open -
>  a cackle of high-pitched laughter - 
<snip>
> "I heard my dad," Harry mumbled.  "That's the first time I've heard 
> him - he tried to take on Voldemort by himself, to give my mum time 
> to run for it..."
<snip>
> "You heard James?" Lupin said in a strange voice.
  - page 240, 241

I'd like to point out that Lupin's strange voice thing here has been 
subject of much speculation, leaving people wondering (myself 
included, in previous posts) if this is an indication that Harry's 
dad wasn't there/ the voice was someone else.  But who else could it 
be?  I speculate that in order for it to not be James, it has to be 
someone we know that has a somewhat significant role in Harry's 
life.  ('Cause otherwise, what's the point of having a different 
person there?)  However, anyone that could fill that role has had his 
voice heard - by both Harry and us.  

4) and I'd like to add this quote into the debate:
> "It [Harry's reaction to the dementors] has nothing to do with 
> weakness," said Professor Lupin sharply, as though he had read 
> Harry's mind.  "The dementors affect you [Harry] worse than others 
> because there are horrors in your past that others don't have. 
> <snip> Get too near a dementor and every good feeling, every happy 
> memory will be sucked out of you.  <snip>  You'll be left with 
> nothing but the worst experiences of your life." 
   - Lupin to Harry, page 187

First of all, I find it difficult to believe that, of all the adults 
present at the Quidditch match, none have an experience in their past 
that is worse than Harry's.  After all, some of them must have had V-
encounters...  but there's no mention of anyone else having such an 
extreme reaction to the dementors.  And the explanation can't be that 
adults have a stronger "reflex" since Lupin states that "weakness" 
doesn't have anything to do with it.  (Unless this statement is meant 
to placate Harry, which doesn't seem likely.)

Secondly, (and related to the above point), aren't some of our worst 
fears the "monster in the closet" stuff from our youth?... Which 
leads me to ask, Is the worst experience of Harry's life the 
actual "witnessing" of his parents' death?  He was a baby - how much 
could he have actually comprehended what was going on?  Sure, he's a 
wizard, and sure the moment may have been branded into his 
subconscious...  and, my being a muggle and all (still hoping to get 
that Hogwarts acceptance letter, even at age 26...), I don't know if 
some wizards actually can remember coming out of the womb.  I do know 
that my earliest memories do not go as far back as when I was one.  

Here's what I'm (reluctantly) proposing: Harry's "worst experience" 
is not the actual living through witnessing his parents' death, but 
how he *imagines* that death to have taken place.  ie He doesn't have 
a real/vivid memory of the death, but he does lie awake at night 
imagining how it all took place, and those thoughts are what haunt 
him.  Prior to encountering the dementors, he had only had "third-
person"-esque daydreams about the incident (sort of like in dreams 
when you are watching yourself in the scene) But the dementors tapped 
into his fear and his imagination, bringing out a vivid, but 
imagined, replay of the scene.  Hence the reason that he identifies 
the voices as his parents' and he puts Voldemort's voice (which he 
has already heard) into the scene.  (btw, I do think that Harry 
believes that what he hears is the actual scene - not his imagination)

This idea brings up an interesting concept with the books.  Much time 
has been spent in relation to not letting your fears get the best of 
you. For example, "He who must not be named" is a way of giving into 
your fears, and thus giving the object of your fear power.  The 
Patronus is incredibly difficult to do, and it is the ultimate-magic 
way of confronting your fears.  Might Harry's voices be a red 
herring, and the real issue (in relation to the voices) will not be 
the *what* of the scene, but instead Harry needing to overcome his 
fear of Voldemort (initially planted in him by knowledge of V killing 
his parents and then growing as he imagined this taking place.)  I'd 
venture to say that while this scene is emotionally heart wrenching 
for both Harry and the reader (when I first read it, I was overjoyed 
that Harry got to hear his mum and dad), it may actually be more a 
representative of how much fear can seep into your every thought and 
have grave effects on your life.

I'm not sure if these ramblings are making any sense, but hopefull 
y'all will understand what I'm trying to say.  

I close with a fun project I took on.  I pieced together all of what 
Harry heard to see how the full conversation may have taken place.  
(As I was typing the quotes out before, I saw minor discrepencies 
between some of them, leading me to believe that Harry is hearing 
different parts of the conversation with each dementor encounter):

... then came a new voice, a man's voice, shouting, panicking -
M (male voice): "Lily, take Harry and go!  It's him!  I'll hold him 
off -"
The sounds of someone stumbling from a room - a door bursting open - 
a cackle of high-pitched laughter - 
F (female voice): "Not Harry!  Not Harry!  Please, I'll do anything -"
H (high pitched voice): "Stand aside.  Stand aside, girl!"
F: "Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry"
H: "Stand aside, you silly little girl... stand aside now..."
F: "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead -"
F: "Not Harry!  Please... have mercy... have mercy..."
A shrill voice was laughing, the woman was screaming.

- Nobody's Rib, who, despite her musings, really wants Harry to have 
heard what really happened that night