"Re: Ron is Dumbledore?" (& Hermione=McGonagall, Hagrid, eyes, & much more)

[nobodysrib]

No: HPFGUIDX 53274

Eric wrote:

> In PoA, it is said that it was Dumbledore's testimony that Sirius 
> was the Potters' Secret Keeper that was the clincher that sent 
> Sirius to Azkaban: "I myself gave evidence to the Ministry that 
> Sirius had been the Potters' Secret Keeper." (PoA, US edition, pg. 
> 392).  Now, if Dumbledore really were Ron, he would've known from 
> the start that Sirius was innocent and that Pettigrew was 
> untrustworthy, especially because he was the one who let him sleep 
> in his bed for years.  I'm sure there's more if one searches.
> 
> So, how are you going to explain this?

I've got a potential explanation!  
But first I have to start at the beginning of my thoughts, lest I 
jump all over the place and attempt to, ahem, time travel back and 
forth to different ideas.

Here's the scene as I see it:  Ron decides to go back in time to 
change the past  (This, btw, fits with his desire to play the hero), 
but, as we've been discussing, Ron messes up and ends up 130 years in 
the past.  

Well, it really is foolish of him to go back in the first place, 
since purposefully changing *anything* could really mess *everything* 
up.  (ex: saving baby Harry could somehow result in Voldemort killing 
baby Ron, and thus the space time continuum collapses... or 
something...).  But Ron *conveniently* wasn't around when Harry and 
Hermione time turner-ed in PoA, and thus did not receive Hermione's 
careful warnings about time travel.  And impulsive 17 year-old Ron 
would be thinking with his heart and not his head when he made the 
decision to go back in time.

And anything that young Dumbledore!Ron did wouldn't be interfering 
with the past, because it had already happened.  But it gets trickier 
once you get involved with people more directly linked to present 
time situations - situations you have previous knowledge of.  (You 
can only *change* that which you are already aware of.)  Once D!R is 
involved with situations, such as VWI trials that Eric mentioned, 
that Ron knew about, he is no longer operating purely off of D!R 
instincts, but instead off of future-knowledge instincts, and to 
change these aspects of the past would mean he would potentially 
change the future as well.  I'm confusing myself here, but, luckily 
for us, D!R has had 100 years to ponder the metaphysics of time 
travel, and he would understand the intracicies far better.  (That's 
a cop-out, I know.)  My answer to Eric's question: by the time the 
trials roll around, D!R is no longer young and foolish but older and 
wise, and, regrettfully, D!R knows that he cannot risk his own 
existance (and the future's existance) by changing past events.

But then how can he do things to interfere with HHR's lives to help 
them out?  Easy - those things have already happened.  Just like 
Harry knew he could do the patronus spell, because he had already 
done it before.  And if I try to sort this part of the argument out 
any more, my head will burst.

eye color:
I had thought that Ron's eyes were blue, but have not yet found any 
places to back this up.  However, if Ron's eyes are brown, couldn't 
an older Dumbledore!Ron have done a spell to change his eye color - 
knowing that his eyes were the only part of him that still resembled 
his youth, and hoping this might be enough to keep others from 
figuring it out?  Also, if pale blue eyes/red hair are a recessive 
genetic combo, should we note that Mr. Weasley having that same combo 
might mean it runs in their family?  

McGonagall!Hermione:
I think Brin first brought up the idea of Hermione going back in 
time, too, and then others (who I wish I could quote and give credit 
to) pointed out times when McGonagall is both startled or surprised 
by HHR activities and speaks to Dumbledore as if she did not know he 
were D!R.  My explanation:

picture this scene: Hermione is there when Ron goes back in time.  
She hears him say the spell, and hears him mispronounce it, but it's 
too late to correct him and whoosh! he has left the present.  (I am 
reminded of "Oh, honestly, Ron, it's pronounced wing-ar-dium levi-o-
sa." from SS, paraphrase.)  She decides to go back after him, certain 
that they will be able to figure out a way to get back once she's 
there, and also certain that without her he is lost forever.  Only, 
Hermione being Hermione, she can't *do* an incorrect spell 
correctly.  She mispronounces it as close to Ron's way as she can, 
but is taken back 70 instead of 100 years. 

(note: We've already had proof that you must annunciate when doing 
travel-magic, or else you will end up in the wrong location, just 
like Harry did with the flue powder in CoS.) 

But what about McGonagall's surprise-reactions, etc.?  Remember, 
Hermione is *very* good at keeping secrets, even from Harry and Ron.  
We've seen this both with the time turner in PoA and with her Krum 
ball-date in GoF.  The secret-leeping plays into her relationship 
with Dumbledore!Ron, too.  After traveling to the past she would 
immediately recognize that she needs to get back to the future asap, 
lest she risk screwing up everything later on. But "Wait a minute," 
thinks Hermione.  "Who knows if Ron will be able to get back on his 
own?  And if he can't get back, what if he goes and does something 
daft like try and rescue baby Harry?"  The clever witch that she is, 
she figures out that Dumbledore=Ron and decides she must stay close 
to him and keep him from messing things up.  But she also knows that 
exposing her true identity to D!R would only add to the already 
present difficulties of keeping their secrets, especially for D!R, 
and makes the difficult choice of remaining incognito.  And thus we 
have an explanation for why Dumbledore and McGonagall are so chummy - 
they were best friends (and more?) in a "past-future" life so their 
personalities would naturally mesh well, and McGonagall!Hermione has 
made it her business to remain close to Dumbledore!Ron.  It's also 
interesting to note that Dumbledore!Ron is not the only one with some 
Gryffindor bias - McGonagall!Hermione just happens to be right in 
there with the Gryffindors, too.

This whole theory also helps to explain how Dumbledore knows where 
the Dursley home is (for when he drops off baby Harry) and that 
McGonagall knows to go looking for him there.  

The GoF twinkle in Dumbledore's eye:
I assume that V's rising (and the manner in which it happened) is a 
pivotal event that effects the rest of the books.  Could Dumbledore!
Ron's greatest fear be that he not remember the details of day-to-day 
life in the right way (or he messes up here and there), and that that 
would change how V rose, thus changing everything beyond that and 
making the last 100 years of his life (and sacrificing growing up in 
the present) have all been in vain?  But hearing Harry's story - and 
then going over to Harry's arm to make sure it happened in just the 
right way - is a relief, and he knows that if this event happened the 
right way then the rest will easily play out accordingly...

Harry must be told at some point about all of this (otherwise the 
readers won't find out), and I think it would be metaphysically safe 
for D!R to spill the beans once young Ron has gone back in time.  
(And I can just imagine a great scene between D!R and M!H where she 
scolds him for "you almost blew it back in '66 when you...")

Now that I think about it, D!R doesn't *have to* be alive to tell 
Harry about his journeys.  He just can't reveal it until after Ron is 
gone.  Which means that D!R can die before Ron leaves, just as long 
as Harry is able to stumble inside of D!R's pensieve after Ron has 
left and watch snippets of Ron/D!R's life.

As for Brin's desire for Ron and Hermione to either time travel 
together or be forever kept apart, isn't just as, if not more, heart 
wrenchingly tragic for them to be together - but for only one to ever 
know about it for all of those years (compared to forever separated)?

Dumbledore has been getting more and more "tired" looking:
This is in response to Gregory's point that D!R would want to seek 
out Flamel in order to ensure that he stay alive long enough to see 
everything play out.  I love this idea (especially since I think it's 
great when a series ties the roots of it all to the ending), and want 
to add on to it:  obviously Dumbledore couldn't have been made 
immortal, or you'd think he would have also died when the sorceror's 
stone was destroyed.  But what if, among the many experiments leading 
to creating the ss, Flamel found an alchemical solution that would 
ensure your life was extended for a certain amount of time - say, 
just long enough for D!R to make sure he was able to see Ron go back 
in time.  (and it's not like he doesn't know exactly when that's 
going to happen.)  D!R's time is running up, and so he's looking 
older and older.  Also, this would mean that V would be *unable* to 
kill him, so D!R would have no reason to personally fear Voldemort 
(in addition to, of course, already knowing that V doesn't harm him.)

inconsistencies with fear of saying V's name:
Pisk pointed out that Ron is afraid of saying V's name, but 
Dumbledore says to McGonagall he can't remember a time when he was 
afraid of the name.  By the time D!R reaches that McGonagall 
conversation, he might as well be a different person, so much time 
has passed while being incognito.  And he probably feels like a 
different person, too.

That's it for my adding on to others' ideas, but I also wanted to add 
a Hagrid element into all of this:

Why does Dumbledore trust Hagrid beyond anyone else?

If I were D!R, when I finally meet young Hagrid at Hogwarts, after 
all those years away from my old life, I would be overjoyed and want 
to get to know him, even while incognito.  Also, Ron has already made 
a connection with Hagrid.  In addition, D!R *knows* that he should 
trust Hagrid because when Ron was at Hogwarts he saw that that trust 
was not broken.  

Might D!R break down and, knowing he can trust Hagrid, tell Hagrid 
the truth about himself?  After so many years, he must be dying to 
tell someone, and Hagrid is really the only option.  (I suppose 
spilling all those thoughts into the pensieve is also an option.)  He 
might not have said he was specifically Ron, either, but that doesn't 
mean that Hagrid couldn't be - at least partially - in on the 
secret.  And not that there really needs to be much explanation for 
Hagrid's loyalty to Dumbledore, but if he were entrusted with D!R's 
biggest secret, that would certainly feed that loyalty.

This will make Ron-Hermione SHIPpers happy:

If Hagrid knows that D!R was Ron, then D!R would probably spend some 
time telling Hagrid all about Hermione.  And, being a lost love, I'm 
sure his descriptions would be romanticized and grand.  Doesn't 
Hagrid dote on Hermione a little bit?  "An' they haven't invented a 
spell our Hermione can' do," he says in CoS (US Hardcover, page 116), 
making Hermione blush a "brilliant shade of magenta."  And he also 
forces Harry and Ron to make up with Hermione when they stop talking 
to her in PoA.  (Then again, that could just be Hagrid being Hagrid.)

IMHO, Hagrid is one of the beloved characters who will die later on, 
which would not only make him a prime candidate for D!R to tell the 
secret to (since he knows that Hagrid never *did* and never *will* 
tell the secret, but also make D!R doubly happy to see Hagrid again 
(when Hagrid first comes to Hogwarts).

And to add to the list of amazing things Dumbledore knows: he's able, 
without a magical eye, to see through the invisibility cloak.  Or is 
he?  Is it just that he already knows the cloak and those hiding 
underneath it are there?  one example: "For a second, Harry was 
almost sure Dumbledore's eyes flickered toward the corner where he 
and Ron stood hidden [by the invisibility cloak,]" CoS, US Hardcover 
page 264, when they are taking Hagrid away to Azkaban.

Things to keep an eye on:  does Ron have a habit of looking at the 
ceiling to avoid others' eyes?  Has Ron ever been described as having 
a twinkle in his eye?  

(LOL!  How fitting is it that the Malfoys, who have forever tormented 
the Weasleys, also think that Dumbledore is the worst headmaster 
Hogwarts has ever had...  And how ironic that Ron chose to study 
Divination...)

I'm going to end this rather long and scattered post with a scene 
from CoS.  I've been reading it over and over again, from the 
McGonagall!Hermione perspective, and I'm cracking up.  And since this 
scene takes place after Hermione is attacked, M!H has no previous 
(personal) knowledge to act upon and is thus left somewhat free to 
act on her instincts.  (I'm also realizing, as I interpret this 
scene, that I may have just boarded the Hermione-Ron SHIP.)  
Everything in brackets comes from me:

> "Potter, I think you'd better come with me..." [said McGonagall.]
<snip of scene description>
> "Yes, perhaps you'd better come, too, Weasley," [said McGonagall, 
> wondering just how emotionally Ron would react.]
<snip of them going up to the infirmary>
> "This will be a bit of a shock," said Professor McGonagall in a 
> surprisingly gentle voice as they approached the infirmary.  "There 
> has been another attack... another double attack."
<snip of description of attack victim Penelope Clearwater>
> And on the bed next to her was - 
> "Hermione!" Ron groaned.
> Hermione lay utterly still, her eyes open and glassy.
> "They found her near the library," said Professor McGonagall.  "I 
> don't suppose either of you can explain this?  It was on the floor 
> next to them..." She was holding up a small, circular mirror.  
> ['C'mon, guys,' she thought.  'I can't just hand you *all* of 
> the clues - you've gotta come up with this on your own.  But, 
> honestly, you'd think this would be enough to speed along your 
> figuring it all out.  You've got the mirror, I mentioned the 
> library...  How much more do you need?  How long are you going to 
> let me lie in the infirmary?!'] 
  -- US Hardcover CoS, pgs 256-7

- Nobody's Rib (whose brain can't stop dwelling on this subject)