British Muggle/Wizarding schooling WAS Graduation

[bluesqueak]

No: HPFGUIDX 53817

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, GulPlum <hp at p...> wrote:
> Gina Rosich replied to my previous mega-post with:

> >And if there is no formal education after the NEWTs, then they 
> >must be used for job qualifications at least (e.g. Percy at the 
> >MoM).  Otherwise, why would anyone care how many OWLs or NEWTs 
> one got?

Richard:
> I agree. The reason I drew the distinction between A Levels and 
> NEWTs was that A Levels were invented as the means of entering 
> further academic study. They aren't really of any value to 
> employers, as they aren't designed to be "practical". On the other 
> hand, GCSEs are very much designed to be practical and to 
> establish that you've attained an acceptable standard for entering 
> the workforce and learning a "job".

[quote moved further down]

> Furthermore, few people with no intention of going to 
> university will bother taking A Levels: whilst seen not quite as  
> a  waste of time, they are generally seen as a loss of two years  
> of gaining on-the-job experience. (Parenthetically, most UK 
> employers currently demand a *minimum* of a university degree or 
> similar for anything other than menial, bottom-of-the-rung jobs,  
> but that is partially a political issue and thus not appropriate 
for discussion).

Sorry Richard, but ''A' levels are only good for going to 
University'  is completely wrong. 

It may be true in 2003 (though I wonder), but when I was taking 
my 'A' levels (a couple of years before JKR took hers) fully half my 
class was not intending to go on to university (I was rather 
doubtful about University myself, as I was part of the first 
generation in my family to go)

The half of my class who were not intending to go took A levels for 
the very simple reason that 'A' levels meant a better job. Apply for 
the Civil Service at 16 with GCSE's, you go into Clerical Grade (and 
stay there). Apply for the Civil Service at 18 with 'A' levels, you 
go into the bottom rung of the Administrator grade, with more 
promotion possibilities. Engineering, accountancy, all sorts of 
trades with on-the-job training all had (and often still have) the 
same split. Leaving at 16 put pupils on the 'blue collar' level; 
leaving at 18 with 'A' levels put you on the 'white collar/trainee 
management' level.

Richard: 
> This isn't to say that employers completely disregard A Level 
> results; far from it - the point is that they aren't of immediate 
> interest unless the job involves an element of research, writing, 
> etc. 

'A' levels are academic, and the arts subjects probably aren't much 
practical use to an employer. Science subjects are another matter 
entirely - an engineer needs to study Maths and Physics, for 
example. 

But even academic subjects told an employer that their new trainee 
was capable of absorbing large amounts of information and applying 
it under conditions of some pressure. This is a handy thing to know 
when you're considering whether to invest two or three years of 
training time.


So Percy the Ambitious would *not* want to leave at 16 so he could 
get two extra years experience in making the tea, Weatherby [grin]. 
Even in the Muggle world, leaving at 16 would make him a clerical 
worker. Staying on the extra 2 years and getting good grades would 
be the thing to do.

Madame Rosemerta, on the other hand, may well have left Hogwarts at 
16, if the previous owners of the Three Broomsticks were her 
relatives. With a business to step into, the two years of on-the-job 
experience might well be more valuable than academic school studies. 

> Gina:
> >I still believe (as others have speculated) that there must be 
> >some kind of post-NEWTs educational training, just not at 
> >University.  Maybe professionals and experts (e.g. Pompfrey 
> >doing  nursing or Snape being thepotions Master) take on interns 
> or apprentices.

Richard:
> Again, I'm in total accord with you.  A system of guilds, 
> apprenticeships and private research projects were the way things 
> were done until the advent of the modern education system (in the 
> UK, that can be precisely dated to the 1902 Education Act, which 
> was modified in 1944, mainly in respect of the way the system was 
> funded - that this was *during* WWII is not incidental), and I 
> fully expect that the wizarding community would have the same 
> attitude.

It's still the case in a large number of muggle professions. A 
degree does not get you Chartered Engineer status. It just gains you 
exemption from some of the *exams*. It's still not completely 
unknown for engineers without the degree to study privately for the 
exams. Accountancy is similar - a lot of people train on the job for 
the degree level Accountancy exams.

So it would be strange if the WW did not have a similar system of 
job based exams and qualifications (Snape might be a Chartered 
Apothecary, for example).

The other point to consider is that the British WW is quite simply 
too *small* to support a University. 1000 students (JKR's estimate 
of the size of Hogwarts) equals 143 students per year. If 50% decide 
to go on to University, and it's a 3 year English style course, then 
that's only 214 undergraduates TOTAL.

214 people is an awfully small college. Generally, only specialist 
schools can afford to be that small. Individual research and 
training would actually make a *lot* more sense.

Pip