SHIP Why I Hate H/G - Attn: Lilac
Lilac
lilac_bearry at yahoo.com
Fri Mar 28 05:08:09 UTC 2003
No: HPFGUIDX 54483
Hello, Keith! Thanks for the special "attn: Lilac" so I wouldn't
miss it! ;-)(BTW, when I first saw your last name, I thought it
said "Macarena" ;-) )
I usually leave the SHIP debates for Pippin and Angua (they both do
a much better job than I ever could), but I occasionally de-lurk for
some good "Ginny" discussion.
<<<As you asked, what's the foreshadowing for? As much as I hate to
say
it, it could be for evilGinny or weakGinny! The problem is that we
don't
know yet, but to my mind, it does not necessarily foreshadow a
relationship, and if it does,the ground work for a possible
relationship has
not properly been laid out as yet and was certainly not laid out in
COS/POA/GOF.>>>
Me:
Yes...JKR has many directions she can take Ginny's character now.
That's why I stated my "hope", my opinion, about what could happen.
Ginny will have the opportunity to choose between what's right and
what's easy, as will everyone else in the next three books. And
I'll agree that Ginny really is a wild card right now. It could
foreshadow a SHIP because of something they both have in common with
each other that no one else has, or it could foreshadow something
else, like Evil!Ginny. And we H/G fans do have groundwork for a
possible future relationship. Okay...not a whole lot, but it's
there (as we interpret the evidence). I'll admit that H/H evidence
has a little bit more to it than H/G in terms of evidence amount,
but R/H has even more evidence than the two SHIPs put together.
Doesn't miss a trick, that JKR.
As much as I do like H/G, I have to say that I would be totally fine
if it didn't happen. I just want -- no, my inner-teen *needs* --
Ginny to come into her own, even if it's w/o Harry (I speak for
myself here, not all H/Gs). You see, I have this theory that JKR
has a soft-spot for the girl for some reason. It could be because
she was a freckly little girl herself ("[...A young girl runs along
with the train, waving with all her might.] JKR: Oh God, this is
heartbreaking, isn't it? This is like a long torture. It's always
the little freckly girls, 'cause I was a little freckly girl. They
warm my heart."
http://www.cbc.ca/programs/sites/hottype_rowlingcomplete.html )
It could be because of the time JKR spent teaching, where I'm sure
she encountered all kinds of children, including some Ginny-types.
Whatever the case, JKR would just seem like the type to have someone
like Ginny come into her own in a positive way. As a teacher
myself, I know that it is always fulfilling for me to see a child
overcome an obstacle, whether it be academic or social (such as
shyness/awkwardness/blushing). But that's just me speculating on
author intent.
<<<It could also possibly foreshadow a relationship between Neville
and
Ginny who were not as badly effected with the dementors as Harry
was.
Putting Harry in the picture may signify that Harry may initially,
albeit
unintentionally, come in between a future Neville and Ginny
relationship because of her feelings for "The Boy Who Lived".>>>
And that could be. But canon tells us that Ginny's reaction was
much stronger than Neville's. Even Harry himself (as we are privy to
his thoughts) compared her reaction to his as being almost as bad.
Plus there's that "both have been targets of Voldemort and survived"
thing that will come into play, I'm sure. Maybe as SHIP, maybe as
friends, maybe as Evil!Ginny. But I think it's significant,
whatever happens.
<<<Lilac said:
"That's very interesting, because I don't get that impression at all
from Harry.My impression is that he politely endures her blushing
and
fumbling. He doesn't love it, but he doesn't hate it worse
than "eating
live scorpions" likeyou suggest...just politely indifferent. Could
someone please help me to
understand this impression, backed up by canon?"
Okay, let me try to clarify this - I did not say that he hates her
blushing and fumbling worse than "eating live scorpions". I said
that he'd
prefer eating live scorpions to having a relationship or dating
Ginny.
It is not explicitly mentioned in the canon, but certain inferences
can
be made from the way Harry behaves with her.>>>
Me:
Okay, so you mean *your* inferences and interpretations. Gotcha...
<<<It is very clear that he doesn't want to date her, and , as said
before, would probably rather eat live scorpions than go out with
her!
but This is because, he knows that she's got a crush on "The Boy Who
lived". He's
seen it since the beginning - UKPB PS C6 PG73 <snip quote>>>>
Me:
You had me up until that last sentence. She has one fan-girl moment
in PS, because a name she's heard all her life is mentioned, and
he's on the train *right now*! It's not even a crush then. It's
a "Wow, that's Harry Potter" moment. Everyone has a "Wow, you're
Harry Potter" celebrity moment when they meet Harry, don't they?
Each person expressess that "Wow" moexpressesrently, of
course.
<snip>
<<<We know how Harry himself views his celebrity status with a bit
of
distaste - he's certainly not comfortable with being a celebrity. In
COS,
We know how he treats fellow celebrity Gilderoy Lockhart because
Lockhart goes out of his way to seek fame. We know how he treats
Colin Creevey
- okay, I'll grant you that Creevey is a nuisance! Plus we all know
what he thinks of Rita Skeeter .
Now let's go back to Ginny's crush - what's her crush all about -
it's
all about meeting/knowing the famous "Boy Who Lived". Do you think
Harry's comfortable with this ? Do you think Harry would want to go
out or
have a relationship with someone who has a crush on him solely
because
he's famous ? And that's the cornerstone of Ginny's crush, isnt it?
>>>
Me:
Do you really think she has not matured at all during the four years
she has known him? Do you really think that her reasons for liking
him have not developed and changed over the years? He saves her
life, he is not mean to her, he is her brother's best friend who
comes and stays at their house sometimes, he politely accepts her
get-well card (keeping it under the fruit bowl because of the shrill
singing, but not throwing it away with disgust, mind you), her
mother has basically adopted him, he's modest and hates the
spotlight, and many, many other things she has observed about him
from just being in his circle of influence. Do you really, after
four years, think her crush is solely based on him being famous? The
only reason it has lasted for four years? Ginny, the person whose
first words uttered in Harry's presence were "Leave him alone, he
didn't want all that!(COS pg 61)" (Hmmm....another instance
where "What the heart is full of, the mouth spills over" might also
be applicable...). That right there lets me know that she has
definitely moved past her fan-girl moment at the train station, and
that's in COS!
<<<There's a lovely little paragraph in UKPB GOF C22 PG339
Hermione's words about Krum kept coming back to him.'They only like
him
because he's famous!" Harry doubted very much if any of the girls
who
had asked to be his partner so far would have wanted to go to the
ball
with him if he hadn't been school champion. Then he wondered if this
would bother him if Cho asked him.
Think about Hermione's lines about the Krum's fans and Krum 'They
only
like him because he is famous' - now what's the cornerstone of
Ginny's
crush on Harry ?>>>
Me:
It is a lovely little paragraph, isn't it? I've thought plenty
about those lines, thankyouverymuch, and Ginny doesn't act like any
of those girls who ask Harry out, now does she? *She* doesn't even
ask him out. Harry doesn't even compare her to those other girls in
his thoughts, actions or speech. Other than her Fan-girl!Ginny
moment in PS, I see no other fan-girl actions. Kind of reassuring,
actually, so thank you for bringing this up!
<snip the digging it in...>
<<<'Oh Mum, Can I go on the train and see him, Mum,oh please...'>>>
*shakes head* Poor thing will never live this moment in time down,
will she?...
<<<So can you ever picture Harry asking Ginny out, willingly ?>>>
If she acted like Colin, or the other fan-girls (Harry's or Krum's),
than absolutely not. I couldn't even picture him asking her out
while I was reading GOF because the boy had a crush on Cho. But
someday later...yes, I can. There have been ample chances for JKR
to have Harry compare her to these celebrity worshipers, but she
hasn't had Harry think about Ginny like that *at all*.
<<<Back to UKPB GOF C22 PG345 Harry and Ron are getting increasingly
worried about finding dates to the ball:
And still Harry Hadn't asked Cho to the ball. He and Ron were
getting a
little nervous now, though as Harry Pointed out, Ron would look much
less stupid than he wouldwithout a partner; Harry was supposed to be
starting out the dancing with the other champions.
'I suppose there's always Moaning Myrtle,' he said gloomily,
referring
to the ghost who haunted the girl's toilet on the second floor.
It is strange that Harry does not even consider asking Ginny out at
this point especially since both Ron and Harry openly know that she,
Ginny
like Myrtle fancies him! Proof : UKPB COS C17 P240
'Urgh!' said Ron, as they left the bathroom for the dark deserted
corridor outside. 'Harry! I think Myrtle's got fond of you! you've
got
competition, Ginny!'>>>
Me:
Like I said above, Harry doesn't think about Ginny in that way; he's
too busy languishing in love over Cho. Now, I'd be worried if Harry
had gloomily said, "I suppose there's always Ginny" instead of MM,
because that would mean he'd be referring to her as the absolute
last person he would ever even *consider* asking to the ball. But
he doesn't. JKR doesn't even take the opportunity for him to
*think* this about Ginny (since Ron is there, and he wouldn't say
anything like that out loud to Ron), when she very well could have.
It's not a positive, and it's not a negative.
<<<To further prove my point, I take you to the conversation Ron has
with
Hermione and Ginny asking them to go with Harry and him to the Yule
Ball - Notice one thing - Harry's stony silence (and he's not
shocked by
the girl's attitude, not one bit bothered mind you; even though Ron
is)
during the conversation and after - Harry seems totally indifferent
towards the whole incident, even though it seems evident that Ginny
regrets accepting Neville's invitation! UKPB GOF C22 PGS 348-349.
(read it
for yourself)>>>
Me:
I love that section...thanks for referring to it! Again, JKR
doesn't give us any insight into Harry's thoughts (though I suspect
this is more for the Ron/Hermione exchange happening in this scene
than anything), especially when Ron suggests Ginny, and the
opportunity was there for JKR to let us know how Harry really feels
about Ginny. No "Yes, she's my one true love!" thoughts or "Yeah, I
guess that would work" thoughts or "No way! I'd rather eat live
scorpions!" thoughts. Like you said...INDIFFERENT.
<<<To me it seems evident that he'd rather go out with a ghost or
entertain scorpions than go out on a date with someone who has a
crush on him
just because he's "The Boy Who Lived" - Need I say more ?>>>
I'd always interpreted that quip about MM to be a sarcastic feeling-
sorry-for-myself moment for Harry, but maybe I've been misreading
that line all this time. I guess he really *was* seriously
considering MM. Thanks for clearing that up!<beg>
<<<Lilac said:
"My impression is that he politely endures her blushing and fumbling"
That's a very reasonable impression you've got there about Harry
politely enduring her blushing and fumbling, but have you asked
yourself why
he politely endures her blushing and fumbling and why he, on the
other
hand treats the Creevey boys and Gilderoy Lockhart like sh*t ? The
reason, I suspect, is to do with the Weasley family:
1) The Weasley's (particularly Mrs. Weasley) treats him as part of
their family - would it be gratitude if he treated Ginny like the
Creevey
boys and Lockhart ? So what does he do ? he talks to her if she
talks
to him but ignores her otherwise.>>>
Yeah, the Weasley effect has something to do with it, I suspect.
Yes, he ignores her at this point in canon, although it's important
to note that he doesn't purposely avoid her, like he does with
Lockhart or the Creevey brothers. And he's certainly never
thought, "Gee, I better be nice to Ginny...even though that crush
really bugs me, I'd be really ungrateful to the Weasley's if I gave
her the cold shoulder..."
I guess what it boils down to for me is this: if it hasn't been
totally shot down in Harry's thoughts, actions or speech, then
*anything* is possible in the Potterverse. I can see your line of
reasoning, Keith, and even though I don't agree with it, I
appreciate your comments!
Lilac, who is bravely running away so Angua can take over any H/G
debates...and *oh* how I love to read Angua's H/G debates...
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"So sorry -- dozed off -- what have I missed?" -- Gilderoy Lockhart, COS
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
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