SHIP Why I Hate H/G - Attn: Lilac

[Lilac]

No: HPFGUIDX 54483

Hello, Keith!  Thanks for the special "attn: Lilac" so I wouldn't 
miss it! ;-)(BTW, when I first saw your last name, I thought it 
said "Macarena" ;-) )

I usually leave the SHIP debates for Pippin and Angua (they both do 
a much better job than I ever could), but I occasionally de-lurk for 
some good "Ginny" discussion.

<<<As you asked, what's the foreshadowing for? As much as I hate to 
say 
it, it could be for evilGinny or weakGinny! The problem is that we 
don't 
know yet, but to my mind, it does not necessarily foreshadow a 
relationship, and if it does,the ground work for a possible 
relationship has 
not properly been laid out as yet and was certainly not laid out in 
COS/POA/GOF.>>>

Me:
Yes...JKR has many directions she can take Ginny's character now.  
That's why I stated my "hope", my opinion, about what could happen.  
Ginny will have the opportunity to choose between what's right and 
what's easy, as will everyone else in the next three books.  And 
I'll agree that Ginny really is a wild card right now.  It could 
foreshadow a SHIP because of something they both have in common with 
each other that no one else has, or it could foreshadow something 
else, like Evil!Ginny.  And we H/G fans do have groundwork for a 
possible future relationship.  Okay...not a whole lot, but it's 
there (as we interpret the evidence).  I'll admit that H/H evidence 
has a little bit more to it than H/G in terms of evidence amount, 
but R/H has even more evidence than the two SHIPs put together.  
Doesn't miss a trick, that JKR.

As much as I do like H/G, I have to say that I would be totally fine 
if it didn't happen.  I just want -- no, my inner-teen *needs* -- 
Ginny to come into her own, even if it's w/o Harry (I speak for 
myself here, not all H/Gs).  You see, I have this theory that JKR 
has a soft-spot for the girl for some reason.  It could be because 
she was a freckly little girl herself ("[...A young girl runs along 
with the train, waving with all her might.] JKR:  Oh God, this is 
heartbreaking, isn't it? This is like a long torture. It's always 
the little freckly girls, 'cause I was a little freckly girl. They 
warm my heart." 
http://www.cbc.ca/programs/sites/hottype_rowlingcomplete.html )
It could be because of the time JKR spent teaching, where I'm sure 
she encountered all kinds of children, including some Ginny-types.  
Whatever the case, JKR would just seem like the type to have someone 
like Ginny come into her own in a positive way.  As a teacher 
myself, I know that it is always fulfilling for me to see a child 
overcome an obstacle, whether it be academic or social (such as 
shyness/awkwardness/blushing).  But that's just me speculating on 
author intent.

<<<It could also possibly foreshadow a relationship between Neville 
and 
Ginny who were not as badly effected with the dementors as Harry 
was. 
Putting Harry in the picture may signify that Harry may initially, 
albeit 
unintentionally, come in between a future Neville and Ginny 
relationship because of her feelings for "The Boy Who Lived".>>>

And that could be.  But canon tells us that Ginny's reaction was 
much stronger than Neville's. Even Harry himself (as we are privy to 
his thoughts) compared her reaction to his as being almost as bad.  
Plus there's that "both have been targets of Voldemort and survived" 
thing that will come into play, I'm sure.  Maybe as SHIP, maybe as 
friends, maybe as Evil!Ginny.  But I think it's significant, 
whatever happens. 


<<<Lilac said:
"That's very interesting, because I don't get that impression at all 
from Harry.My impression is that he politely endures her blushing 
and 
fumbling. He doesn't love it, but he doesn't hate it worse 
than "eating 
live scorpions" likeyou suggest...just politely indifferent. Could 
someone please help me to
understand this impression, backed up by canon?"

Okay, let me try to clarify this - I did not say that he hates her 
blushing and fumbling worse than "eating live scorpions". I said  
that he'd 
prefer eating live scorpions to having a relationship or dating 
Ginny. 
It is not explicitly mentioned in the canon, but certain inferences 
can 
be made from the way Harry behaves with her.>>>

Me:
Okay, so you mean *your* inferences and interpretations.  Gotcha... 

<<<It is very clear that he doesn't want to date her, and , as said 
before, would probably rather eat live scorpions than go out with 
her!
but This is because, he knows that she's got a crush on "The Boy Who 
lived". He's 
seen it since the beginning - UKPB PS C6 PG73 <snip quote>>>>

Me:
You had me up until that last sentence.  She has one fan-girl moment 
in PS, because a name she's heard all her life is mentioned, and 
he's on the train *right now*!  It's not even a crush then.  It's 
a "Wow, that's Harry Potter" moment.  Everyone has a "Wow, you're 
Harry Potter" celebrity moment when they meet Harry, don't they?  
Each person expressess that "Wow" moexpressesrently, of 
course.           


<snip>

<<<We know how Harry himself views his celebrity status with a bit 
of 
distaste - he's certainly not comfortable with being a celebrity. In 
COS, 
We know how he treats fellow celebrity Gilderoy Lockhart because 
Lockhart goes out of his way to seek fame. We know how he treats 
Colin Creevey 
- okay, I'll grant you that Creevey is a nuisance! Plus we all know 
what he thinks of Rita Skeeter .

Now let's go back to Ginny's crush - what's her crush all about - 
it's 
all about meeting/knowing the famous "Boy Who Lived". Do you think 
Harry's comfortable with this ? Do you think Harry would want to go 
out or 
have a relationship with someone who has a crush on him solely 
because 
he's famous ? And that's the cornerstone of Ginny's crush, isnt it?
>>>

Me:
Do you really think she has not matured at all during the four years 
she has known him? Do you really think that her reasons for liking 
him have not developed and changed over the years?  He saves her 
life, he is not mean to her, he is her brother's best friend who 
comes and stays at their house sometimes, he politely accepts her 
get-well card (keeping it under the fruit bowl because of the shrill 
singing, but not throwing it away with disgust, mind you), her 
mother has basically adopted him, he's modest and hates the 
spotlight, and many, many other things she has observed about him 
from just being in his circle of influence.  Do you really, after 
four years, think her crush is solely based on him being famous? The 
only reason it has lasted for four years?  Ginny, the person whose 
first words uttered in Harry's presence were "Leave him alone, he 
didn't want all that!(COS pg 61)"  (Hmmm....another instance 
where "What the heart is full of, the mouth spills over" might also 
be applicable...). That right there lets me know that she has 
definitely moved past her fan-girl moment at the train station, and 
that's in COS!   


<<<There's a lovely little paragraph in UKPB GOF C22 PG339

Hermione's words about Krum kept coming back to him.'They only like 
him 
because he's famous!" Harry doubted very much  if any of the girls 
who 
had asked to be his partner so far would have wanted to go to the 
ball 
with him if he hadn't been school champion. Then he wondered if this 
would bother him if Cho asked him.

Think about Hermione's lines about the Krum's fans and Krum 'They 
only 
like him because he is famous' - now what's the cornerstone of 
Ginny's 
crush on Harry ?>>>

Me:
It is a lovely little paragraph, isn't it?  I've thought plenty 
about those lines, thankyouverymuch, and Ginny doesn't act like any 
of those girls who ask Harry out, now does she?  *She* doesn't even 
ask him out.  Harry doesn't even compare her to those other girls in 
his thoughts, actions or speech. Other than her Fan-girl!Ginny 
moment in PS, I see no other fan-girl actions. Kind of reassuring, 
actually, so thank you for bringing this up!



<snip the digging it in...>

<<<'Oh Mum, Can I go on the train and see him, Mum,oh please...'>>>

*shakes head* Poor thing will never live this moment in time down, 
will she?...


<<<So can you ever picture Harry asking Ginny out, willingly ?>>>

If she acted like Colin, or the other fan-girls (Harry's or Krum's), 
than absolutely not.  I couldn't even picture him asking her out 
while I was reading GOF because the boy had a crush on Cho.  But 
someday later...yes, I can.  There have been ample chances for JKR 
to have Harry compare her to these celebrity worshipers, but she 
hasn't had Harry think about Ginny like that *at all*.


<<<Back to UKPB GOF C22 PG345 Harry and Ron are getting increasingly 
worried about finding dates to the ball:

And still Harry Hadn't asked Cho to the ball. He and Ron were 
getting a 
little nervous now, though as Harry Pointed out, Ron would look much 
less stupid than he wouldwithout a partner; Harry was supposed to be 
starting out the dancing with the other champions.

'I suppose there's always Moaning Myrtle,' he said gloomily, 
referring 
to the ghost who haunted the girl's toilet  on the second floor.

It is strange that Harry does not even consider asking Ginny out at 
this point especially since both Ron and Harry openly know that she, 
Ginny 
like Myrtle fancies him! Proof : UKPB COS C17 P240

'Urgh!' said Ron, as they left the bathroom for the dark deserted 
corridor outside. 'Harry! I think Myrtle's got fond of you! you've 
got 
competition, Ginny!'>>>

Me:
Like I said above, Harry doesn't think about Ginny in that way; he's 
too busy languishing in love over Cho.  Now, I'd be worried if Harry 
had gloomily said, "I suppose there's always Ginny" instead of MM, 
because that would mean he'd be referring to her as the absolute 
last person he would ever even *consider* asking to the ball.  But 
he doesn't.  JKR doesn't even take the opportunity for him to 
*think* this about Ginny (since Ron is there, and he wouldn't say 
anything like that out loud to Ron), when she very well could have.  
It's not a positive, and it's not a negative.   


<<<To further prove my point, I take you to the conversation Ron has 
with 
Hermione and Ginny asking them to go with Harry and him to the Yule 
Ball - Notice one thing - Harry's stony silence (and he's not 
shocked by 
the girl's attitude, not one bit bothered mind you; even though Ron 
is) 
during the conversation and after - Harry seems totally indifferent 
towards the whole incident, even though it seems evident that Ginny 
regrets accepting Neville's invitation! UKPB GOF C22 PGS 348-349. 
(read it 
for yourself)>>>

Me:
I love that section...thanks for referring to it!  Again, JKR 
doesn't give us any insight into Harry's thoughts (though I suspect 
this is more for the Ron/Hermione exchange happening in this scene 
than anything), especially when Ron suggests Ginny, and the 
opportunity was there for JKR to let us know how Harry really feels 
about Ginny.  No "Yes, she's my one true love!" thoughts or "Yeah, I 
guess that would work" thoughts or "No way!  I'd rather eat live 
scorpions!" thoughts.  Like you said...INDIFFERENT.    

<<<To me it seems evident that he'd rather go out with a ghost or 
entertain scorpions than go out on a date with someone who has a 
crush on him 
just because he's "The Boy Who Lived" - Need I say more ?>>>

I'd always interpreted that quip about MM to be a sarcastic feeling-
sorry-for-myself moment for Harry, but maybe I've been misreading 
that line all this time.  I guess he really *was* seriously 
considering MM. Thanks for clearing that up!<beg>


<<<Lilac said:
"My impression is that he politely endures her blushing and fumbling"

That's a very reasonable impression you've got there about Harry 
politely enduring her blushing and fumbling, but have you asked 
yourself why 
he politely endures her blushing and fumbling and why he, on the 
other 
hand treats the Creevey boys and Gilderoy Lockhart like sh*t ? The 
reason,  I suspect, is to do with the Weasley family:

1) The Weasley's (particularly Mrs. Weasley) treats him as part of 
their family - would it be gratitude if he treated Ginny like the 
Creevey 
boys and Lockhart  ? So what does he do ? he talks to her if she 
talks 
to him but ignores her otherwise.>>>

Yeah, the Weasley effect has something to do with it, I suspect.  
Yes, he ignores her at this point in canon, although it's important 
to note that he doesn't purposely avoid her, like he does with 
Lockhart or the Creevey brothers.  And he's certainly never 
thought, "Gee, I better be nice to Ginny...even though that crush 
really bugs me, I'd be really ungrateful to the Weasley's if I gave 
her the cold shoulder..."  

I guess what it boils down to for me is this:  if it hasn't been 
totally shot down in Harry's thoughts, actions or speech, then 
*anything* is possible in the Potterverse.  I can see your line of 
reasoning, Keith, and even though I don't agree with it, I 
appreciate your comments!

Lilac, who is bravely running away so Angua can take over any H/G 
debates...and *oh* how I love to read Angua's H/G debates...



 

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"So sorry -- dozed off -- what have I missed?" -- Gilderoy Lockhart, COS

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