Voldemort & Lily (was: Whose prophecy?)

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 54609

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" <kcawte at b...> wrote:
>  
>   
> > Troels>
> > 
> > ...edited... What I would really like to have explained is why on 
> > earth he would want to save Lily - why did he attempt to get her 
> > move over?
> > 
> > ...edited...
> > 
> > We need a far more compelling reason for Voldemort to wish to
> > spare Lily.
> > 
> > ...edited...

> > 
>  
> bboy_mn:
>  
> What makes you think Voldemort wanted to spare Lily or that he would
> have?
>  <edited> 
> I don't recall anything in the actual event of Lily and James's 
> death that indicates that Voldemort had any intention of sparing 
> Lily.
>
> <...edited...> 
>  
>
 
> K - (Kathryn):
> 
> But Harry's protection came from Lily giving her life to protect 
> him - if there had been no possibility of Lily being spared then I 
> don't see how that would work. 
> 


bboy_mn:
I think Voldemort's offer is independant of Lily's sacrifice. She
could have cowered in the corner paralized by fear while Voldemort
tried to kill Harry. In that case, her actions mean nothing regardless
of whether Voldemort intended to kill her or not. It was the fact that
she chose to stand and fight to the death rather than yeild. Not yeild
to Voldemort's offer, but to not yeild in any way, shape, or form
under any circumstances.

Some people refer to Lily's protection as 'the love shield'. Although
that is intended to refer to the result, it also refers to Lily's
actions. She sheilded Harry with her own body, she would die before
she would allow Voldemort to get to Harry. Ron and Hermione did the
same thing in the Shrieking Shack. They stood between Harry and Sirius
and said, you will have to kill us before we will let you kill Harry.
There was no stated or implied offer to spare them, but that doesn't
diminish the nobility of their actions or the love that it reflects.
It's this fierce determination to protect Harry, to love another life,
Harry's, more than you love your own, that left a lingering protection
in Harry. It was the fact that she chose to stand and fight to the
death rather than yeild; to fight against hopeless odd, to defend even
when no defense was possible. 

If you think about it this is pretty much a description of every
situation Harry has ever been in. He is always hopelessly out number,
hopelessly out gunned and overpowered, but he continues to fight even
when it is hopeless, he continues to defend even when there is no
defense. Even in the face of defeat, Harry does not accept defeat. No
matter how lost the battle, he continues to fight because it is the
right thing to do. 

That one theme of never giving up, of never accepting defeat occurs
thoughout the books, and it mirrors Lily's sacrife. Lily would rather
die fighting than to accept the obvious and inevitable defeat, and in
doing so, in using her own body to shield Harry even when she knew it
was hopeless, she unknowingly provided the very protection Harry needed. 

So where is the love, you ask? It is Lily's (and Hermione's and Ron's)
undying love for Harry that gave her (them) the strength, the
determination, and the courage to stand and fight in the face of
hopeless defeat. The nobility of loving another more than you love
life itself is the spiritual magic at the very heart of 'undying
love'. Lily's love, in this case, truly was 'undying love', even after
her death, her loved live on and protected Harry, and though Voldemort
has found a minor loophole, I think the love of Lily and James, and
the many other people who love Harry, still protects him in ways that
we have yet to understand. 



> Kathryn continues:
>
> There is no suggestion that *James'* sacrifice gave Harry any
> measure of protection even though he clearly made a decision to 
> stay and fight rather than try and run. 
> 


bboy_mn:
I can't agree with the statement the Jame's sacrifice gave Harry NO
protection. I think Lily's was more significant because she literally
stood between Harry and death, and shielded him. True James also
shield Harry, but more so he stood at the front door trying to protect
his whole family and himself. While they both sacrificed their lives
to protect Harry, Lily's sacrifice was more immediate.



> Kathryn continues:
> 
> Note Voldemort's response to Lily's offer. She begs him to take 
> her instead - he doesn't say "what do you mean instead you stupid 
> woman, I'm here for all of you!". 
>

bboy_mn:
Situations like this are rarely a time for detailed analytical
conversations, so it is unlikely that Voldemort wass going to spell
out his motives or intensions in detail. I still say that Voldemort
dismissed Lily as insignificant, and in doing that, he overlook the 
MOST significant aspect of the situation.


> Kathryn continues:
>
> Equally he doesn't just AK her and carry on to Harry. He gives
> her the chance to stand aside - 
> 

bboy_mn:
Again, my read is that Voldemort sees Lily as insignificant. First he
dismisses her, 'step aside', and when she doesn't, she goes from being
insignificant to being an annoyance that stands between him and his
objective, so he does exactly what you suggest, he AK's her and
carries on to Harry.


> Kathryn continues:
>
>  Whether we could ever  seriously expect a parent to accept such an 
> offer is totally irrelevent to whether the offer is made seriously. 
> 

bboy_mn:

You are ASSUMING that 'step aside' is an offer, and not a command;
just as I am assuming that it is indeed a command given to someone who
 stands between Voldemort and his objective. 

Did he ask her to step aside, or did he tell her to step aside?


> Kathryn continues:
>
> ... he (Voldemort) may well have considered it a perfectly 
> reasonable offer and one that he would in her place accept. 
> 

bboy_mn:
Well, on this point I agree. Voldemort isn't the most rational or
reasonable person. But I still go back to Lily being insignificant.
Assuming he was successful, after he killed Harry, Lily's life would
hang on nothing more than Voldemort's whim. Kill her or not kill her
would have been as significant as whether or not to swat at an
annoying fly.



> Kathryn continues:
>
> And as for "No evil overlord is going to leave one person standing 
> in the end" - read any work of fantasy or sci-fi, watch a film for 
> goodness sake - Evil overlords are always making that kind of stupid
> mistake. 
>

bboy_mn:
Here again, I agree with you. However, I once again go back to Lily
being insignicant in Voldemort's mind. Leaving her alive or dead after
the fact would be of no significants to his objective. If he killed
her it would because the lives of other people mean nothing to him,
they are annoying flies that are either kill or ignored.


> Kathryn continues:
>
>
> ... Leaving Harry alive ... , leaving Neville alive for that matter 
> 
> K

bboy_mn:

Big difference between leaving Harry alive which Voldemort had no
intension of doing, and leaving Neville alive. Neville was like Lily,
he was insignificant, as long as Neville didn't become an annoyance, 
an inconvinience, or an obstical to his objective, Voldemort wouldn't
give Neville a second thought. [Although, I point out that Voldemort
and Neville never met; however, it still serves as a valid
illustration of the point you were trying to make.]

Just a few more thoughts.

bboy_mn